The Savvy Sauce

Stories of God's Upside Down Economy with Kristen Welch (Episode 174)

 

"In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” Acts 20:35

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you share your story of life being flipped upside down in the best kind of way? 

2. Will you share how God redeemed parts of your past to prepare you for exciting new endeavors with Him?

3. What fruit has been produced from focusing on generosity in your family?

 

Kristen Welch is an author, podcaster, and founder of Mercy House and Fair Trade Friday. In 2010, a very unexpected yes changed her life, her family and their future forever.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Raising Grateful Kids in an Entitled World

Raising World Changers in a Changing World

Made to Move Mountains

 

 

Kristen's Website

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Justin Maust

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I'm excited to introduce you to an old friend and today's sponsor, Justin Maust. He's an expert EOS implementer, a certified speaker for the John Maxwell team, and a passionate coach committed to glorifying God by helping business owners get everything they want from their business. 

 

There's a challenge from Theodore Roosevelt that says, Do what you can, with what you've got, where you are. My guest today is Kristen Welch, and she's going to share what that has looked like in her own life as God lovingly and unexpectedly turned her world upside down.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Kristen.

 

Kristen Welch: Hi, thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by giving us a snapshot of your current phase of life? [00:01:18] 

 

Kristen Welch: I think I'm not quite middle-aged anymore. I might be more middle than aged. I am a wife and mom. I have three kids. Two are young adults in college. One's a senior in college, one's a sophomore, and then I have a freshman in high school. Been married 26 years, and I work full-time at Mercy House Global.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for that picture. We know that stories communicate powerful truths. So will you share your story of your life being flipped upside down in the best kind of way?

 

Kristen Welch: I would love to. I guess I have to go back a ways. I started writing really as a blogger in about 2007 and fell in love with that community. That was a long time ago when mom blogs were kind of a new thing. [00:02:18] 

 

That blog led me to Nairobi, Kenya in 2010 with Compassion International, where I traveled to write about poverty in an effort to tell stories. What really happened on that trip was the beginning of having my life turned upside down. So in some ways it was an ending of the American dream because I woke up in a slum in Kenya, and I woke up physically but also spiritually and really saw myself in a new light because for the first time in my life I was aware of the world's normal, not so much my own normal. And those two collided, and it changed everything. So when I say I woke up, I literally saw God in a new light and myself, and I haven't been the same since.

 

Laura Dugger: And even to contrast the two, when you say you haven't been the same since, I remember you sharing a little bit of what trajectory your life was on prior to that trip. [00:03:26] So could you share a little bit more about that phase of life you were in and even the wrestling that took place before you surrendered to the Lord and said yes to going on this trip?

 

Kristen Welch: Yes. Actually, at the time, I had a lot of, I guess, ambition, personal ambition, and I wanted to be invited on a trip like this, I think more for the invitation. I'm an introvert, so sometimes I like to be invited just so I can say no. Not that that's a positive thing, but it's at least honest. 

 

I think I had a list of things that would make me feel like I was a success. So when I did get invited to go to Kenya with Compassion International, I was honored, but I told them no. That night at dinner, I told my husband about the invitation, and he was shocked. He was like, "Why in the world would you say no to this trip?" Not only because it was a free trip to Africa, but because of the opportunity to do something good with the platform that I'd been given. [00:04:29] 

 

I came up with a list of excuses of why it wasn't a good time. Well, the kids were too little at the time. I had a two-year-old. He just sort of looked past those excuses, and just as someone who really knew me, he said, "I want you to answer me honestly. Why did you say no to this trip?" And so I thought about it for a second, and I was honest, and I said, "Because I'm afraid it will change my life." And he pressed a little harder and said, "Would that be a bad thing? Maybe it should change your life."

 

He had seen a woman who loved her family and loved the Lord, but I was really struggling with feeling empty. I had a lack of purpose that I tried to fill with a lot of things of this world. So the next day, I called back, and I changed my answer and said, I think I want to say yes to this trip. [00:05:29] 

 

I don't think you have to travel overseas for your life to be turned upside down. My husband didn't. But I think for me, I needed to be out of my normal and my comfort zone and I needed to just witness God in a new way and experience Him in a new way. And that trip certainly did it for me.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, that sounds amazing that you did say yes. Just in case any of us haven't been overseas before, can you give us a little bit more of a picture of how different it was from your American life at the time?

 

Kristen Welch: Yes. Everything was different. One day in particular, I actually wrote a blog post, and that was our job as writers. Every night after we experienced beautiful and heartbreaking things, we would go back to our hotel and write about what we had seen. We were basically eyewitnesses. [00:06:26] 

 

I wrote a blog post that day, and it was titled, Today I Went to Hell. I don't think I'm a good enough writer to describe what I witnessed. It was every sense was on fire. What I smelled, what I saw, what I touched. We were led into the heart of the slum by armed bodyguards, and it felt dangerous. It felt like a cruel life. 

 

I learned a lot of vocabulary words that day, like survival prostitution, which is a term used to define girls or women who are prostituting for food, not money. I learned that a lot of mothers were actually putting their daughters into survival prostitution to provide for the rest of their families. 

 

Another term I learned was an orphan-led home. As we followed our tour guide into the heart of the slum, she stopped at a home of a boy named Vincent. He was an orphan who led his home, which basically meant that his parents had died, and he was in charge of his siblings.[00:07:53] 

 

Vincent was about 14 years old, and he invited us inside of his house, which was the size of my master bathroom at home. It was a tin shanty with a dirt floor, no furniture, no bed or table. He gave us a tour of his home and showed us how he took one candle, and that was his light for the house.

 

He lit it, dripped the wax on kind of like a stool, and set the candle inside the hot wax so that it would stand up straight on that stool. He got out his blanket and rolled it out on the hard-packed dirt floor to show us where he and his brother slept. [00:08:49] 

 

The entire time he was answering questions and explaining his life, water was dripping through the slits because it was raining outside, and we were getting wet inside of his house. It was dark and dank, and I was overwhelmed with sadness for this boy. The one thing that was so surprising to me, I'll never forget, the entire time he spoke, he had a huge grin on his face. So beautiful. His smile just lit up the room.

 

After he was done explaining how he would get up before school and pick up vegetables, bring them back, and sell them to people on their way to work, which is how he provided food for his brothers, and then he would walk to school. As he was explaining those things to us, he stopped and he asked if we had any questions. I'll never forget that moment. It is a defining moment in my life because I raised my hand. I don't think I thought through what I was about to ask, I just had to ask. [00:10:04] 

 

And I said, "Vincent, how can you be so happy? You have nothing, but you're so happy." He looked at me, and the look on his face described his pity for me. I remember thinking, he feels sorry for me. He said, "Ma'am, I have Jesus. He's enough." 

 

That was the moment that changed my life because I had Jesus, too. I realized, though, that Jesus was the center of this little shanty in the middle of the world's largest slum in Nairobi, and he wasn't the center of my life. I added in salt and pepper to a meal to season it, but he wasn't the center. I met a kid in Kenya who had more than I had, and I realized that after that day, I would never be the same. [00:11:11] 

 

So I came home from that trip, and since that day, more than 11 years ago, I've tried to make Jesus the center of my life and to walk in obedience. I would say those are my goals now.

 

Laura Dugger: I love beginning here because your story shows how God transformed you from the inside out. As you continue to reflect back, what lessons did God continue to teach you about His economy, specifically as it relates to giving, stewardship, and generosity?

 

Kristen Welch: I feel like I've lived a lifetime in the last 11 years just from the lessons that God's taught me. I think we feel like in our culture that the more we have, the more we have. But in the kingdom of God, which is really an upside-down world, it seems like the less we have, but we actually have more. So the more we give, the more we have. [00:12:17] 

 

I am living proof of that, that when the Bible says you can't out-give God, I think this is what He's referring to, that we're basically like a conduit, where we open our hand to heaven, and He gives us gifts, and He places things in our hand. If we keep the other hand closed, we just get uncomfortable and full of what we call blessings, but there's no release of that. The conduit doesn't work. 

 

But when we open our hand and we're just in the middle, whatever God gives us, whether it's resources, gifts, time, money, when we are freely opening both hands, we allow those things to run through us. We're invited into this. I don't think God needs us. He has everything, but He invites us so that we can receive the joy and in return the purpose of generosity. [00:13:20] 

 

So, for me, generosity has taught me that's where joy comes from. I traveled to Kenya really as a woman without purpose, and God used those circumstances and what I witnessed, and the obedience afterwards to give me so much purpose that it's hard to contain. So I think there's this misconception in North America that— I kind of cringe when I hear the word blessing, because we hashtag it and we put it on our wall in cute decor. We sign our emails with it, but we're really not blessed if we're keeping what we've been given. And I think it just means we're selfish. 

 

And so God has really shown me that every gift from above, which we know comes from God, if we keep it for ourselves, we're really suffering from selfishness. But if we open our hand and we become that conduit, that is when we are truly blessed. [00:14:24] 

 

And of course, it is more blessed to give than receive. I guess I've just been able to put into practice some of those gospel truths, and I've tested them, and they're true.

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you've previously spoken on this topic, and I heard you say that God's formula for giving is not the same of ours, because two minus one does not equal one in God's economy. Two minus one is instead multiplied, just like the little boy and his lunch. That's what comes to mind when you say you're applying these gospel truths.

 

Kristen Welch: Yeah, absolutely. My favorite Bible story is the loaves and fishes. I mean, I draw so much inspiration and motivation from that simple children's story, because it reminds me... I struggle with not feeling like I am enough or I have enough to do what God has asked me to do. [00:15:31] And I know I'm not alone in that feeling. 

 

I honestly feel like it's what kept me idle for so long, feeling inadequate. Like, what could I do with what I have? It's not enough. I think that is a lie that the enemy uses to keep us paralyzed from obedience. I think about that little kid who not only was his lunch not enough, he wasn't enough. He wasn't old enough. He wasn't big enough. He didn't have a title. He didn't have experience. He simply had a lunch. It was small and inadequate, but it wasn't the lunch that changed the day, it was the giving of the lunch.

 

I think about what's in my hands. And on any given day, my little lunch looks like a pathetic fish stick dinner. You know, it's just not enough. It's not smart enough. It's not good enough. There's not enough money. There's not enough time. [00:16:40] All the things that we struggle with. But God doesn't ask me to present a five-course meal to get it good enough to become something I'm not. He simply says, I want what's in your hands. 

 

I think what's so miraculous about that story and about what I've seen God do is everyone knows it's not enough. And even when the little boy offered his lunch, I'm sure it wasn't like, oh, he's saving the day, right? Because it wasn't enough, but Jesus blessed it. And then it became more than enough. I'm living proof of that. I get to be on the sidelines of something so holy and so miraculous. No one in my world or in my life gives me credit for what God has done, because they know that I'm not able to do this on my own. [00:17:42] 

 

So I think that space between what we want God to do and where we are today, it keeps us from doing anything because it just seems like too big of a jump. But it's the perfect size of Jesus. And He becomes more than enough. And that's why He receives the glory. I go back to that lesson a lot. It's just such a good reminder that He takes what we have and He does the impossible with it.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:18:18] <music>

 

Sponsor: Thank you to my friend and sponsor, Justin Maust, for making this episode possible. As an expert EOS implementer, Justin has provided over 500 full-day sessions helping business owners implement EOS into their business.

 

EOS is the Entrepreneurial Operating System, which is a complete set of simple and practical tools to help entrepreneurs get what they want from their businesses. Justin helps business owners and leadership teams achieve three things, vision, traction, and health. 

 

For vision, that's simply helping you get everyone in the organization 100% on the same page with where they're going and how they plan to get there. For traction, that's helping to instill focus, discipline, and accountability throughout the company so that everyone executes on that vision every day. 

 

When we think of healthy organizations, let's be honest, there's often a fair amount of dysfunction with teams. But Justin loves helping leaders create a more cohesive, functional, and healthy leadership team. And once the leaders are healthy, they help the whole team become healthy. 

 

Mark and I have been friends with Justin and his wife Jenny for years. We've witnessed them apply these practices to their own life and their family and their business, and the results are transformational.

 

With Justin's love for Jesus and passion to serve business owners to be better stewards of their businesses, I highly recommend you learn more about his services at his website, justinmaust.com. That's justinmaust.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

[00:20:01] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: As you've applied these gospel truths, it's so helpful to hear specific examples. So even in your own life and in your marriage, what have some of those conversations looked like for you?

 

Kristen Welch: Well, I think when I said yes to God, to that trip to Kenya, I didn't really know what I was saying yes to. And I think that's the wild ride of obedience. It's like this great big domino game that's been set up.

 

And when that first yes sets into motion, dominoes that move us into difficult places and hard yeses. So if I had known back then what I was saying yesterday, I might have run the other way. But God is faithful, and he's taken me and my family on this wild, wild ride. [00:21:00] But it's been hard. 

 

I think there have been seasons when I wanted an easy week, month, day. God revealed this to me in a difficult season, but I think I had been waiting for an easy season. Like if we just get past this mountain, if we get over this next obstacle, it's going to be easy. 

 

After a particularly difficult month, I couldn't sleep one night. And that's all I could think about. It was sort of this heartbeat of, God, I just need an easy day, easy week. And I woke up my husband in the middle of the night — at that point, I was crying — and I said, "We've been obedient. We're more than a decade into this journey, and it's been hard." 

 

And from raising millions of dollars a year to walking with our Kenyan staff and rescuing girls out of trafficking, and all of the horrors and redemption that comes from that, I just was in this place where I was asking God for an easy season. 

 

So I shared that with my husband, fully expecting him to say, "You're right, honey. We deserve an easier time. It's coming." [00:22:24] But he did the exact opposite. He propped himself up on his elbows and wiped the tears from my cheeks and said, "You need to let go of this idea of an easy life or an easy season. We have intentionally made our lives difficult in order to make others' lives easier."

 

I knew that those words spoken in the dark were from God, using my husband to speak this beautiful truth that we could have an easier life, but we have chosen intentionally to live a difficult life so that we could somehow ease the lives of others. 

 

I rolled over. I was kind of mad, honestly. I was just like, fine. He went back to sleep, and I don't even know if he remembered it the next day, but God used those words to really just release that burden of expectation that there was going to be an easy time up ahead. [00:23:36] And that's not to say there's not. There's a lot of joy and a lot of purpose, but everything kind of comes the hard way. 

 

But when I think about what the Bible says about denying ourselves, taking up our cross and following Jesus, the word "easy" isn't mentioned.

 

Laura Dugger: It's counterintuitive, but when you share that, it makes me think that that sounds like a much more freeing state of mind.

 

Kristen Welch: Definitely. I mean, literally, things changed for me after that night. I think expectations are something that the enemy uses. Not that in and of itself it's a bad thing to expect, but when we put expectations on others or on ourself or on God, I think it just revealed my heart that day, and it freed me. [00:24:31] You never hear me say, I'm waiting on an easy season now. I expect it to be hard.

 

So there was this shift that happened that night. So I guess I expect difficulties, and then when something is easy, I'm delighted. So I don't know if that works in all areas of life, but it has definitely helped me walk more in freedom, knowing that good things that are gospel-driven, that glorify God, they aren't easy. And I don't expect them to be anymore.

 

Laura Dugger: What are some recommended questions to get us thinking about stewarding our lives in a God-honoring way?

 

Kristen Welch: I think there are several. I think a formative question that's so important is asking ourselves why I was born where I was born. It's definitely eye-opening and life-changing when we start there. [00:25:35] 

 

In God's sovereignty, He placed us where we are. There isn't something we've done, something we've earned. We didn't get to choose to be born in North America, where we live among the world's wealthiest, where we have the most resources.

 

I think when we ask ourselves that first question, we have to follow it up with, what am I supposed to do with what I've been given? Those are two questions that guide me in perspective and gratitude, because it's easy to get caught up in the American dream and the mentality of bigger is better. But it all depends on who we're comparing ourselves to. Am I comparing myself to my neighbor on my street, who's part of the wealthiest nation in the world, or am I comparing myself to my neighbor who lives in a slum in Kenya? [00:26:35] 

 

Neither neighbor chose to live where they live, but God is sovereign, and so how can we use what we've been given? How can we use our advantage at the gate? I think of Esther, who was inside the gate, who was appointed to live inside the kingdom so that she could help people outside. I think when we ask those questions, it recenters us. 

 

Then another more recent question that I ask myself, any unexpected blessing that comes my way, whether it's a check in the mail, a tax return, a raise at work, or not even a financial blessing. Maybe it's extra time that I wasn't expecting to have or a bountiful harvest in a way that isn't money or time. Maybe it's just a gift or a resource. [00:27:34] 

 

In the past, I've always assumed those were blessings for me to keep, like God looking down and saying, this unexpected check, this money, whatever it's for you to keep. But I've really discovered that it's a test. Not every blessing that comes my way is meant for me to keep. 

 

Some of those blessings are meant for me to share. That has been transformative in my life, not assuming that it's all meant for me to keep because I've discovered deeper, bigger, richer blessings when some of those tests I've realized that God gave this to me so I can share it with someone else. It could be as simple as I have an extra seat at my dining room table. I have an extra room in my house. I have an extra chair in my vehicle. Who could fill it? Who needs a seat? So I think looking at life through that lens gives us more than we could ever imagine. [00:28:38] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you acknowledge the Lord in that. And that's helpful to apply in our own lives, just asking God, is this a blessing to keep for ourselves, or is this a test and we're supposed to share it? But let's also pick up your story with another theme God was teaching you, which is redemption. So will you share how God redeemed parts of your past to prepare you for exciting new endeavors with Him?

 

Kristen Welch: Yeah. I mean, I look back at the first 34 years of my life, and I don't think God wastes anything. And I love that about Jesus. I think we get off track sometimes, and I can definitely look back on my life and see that I was focused on myself for a long time. But there are no wastelands. He uses everything. [00:29:34] 

 

So during those first years of my life when I really probably had a shopping addiction and just consumed a lot and had a lot, I have been able to take that love of stuff and allow Him to redeem that consumerism in me. And so one of the things we do at Mercy House is we provide dignified jobs for women in poverty. 

 

And we do that to support our maternity homes in Kenya. We also do it to educate shoppers. I think that something really beautiful happens when we buy something that is made with another person's empowerment at stake. 

 

So now I get to be a part of this beautiful fair trade movement that allows me to educate shoppers to buy things that change other people's lives, and I get to participate in that. It's this really beautiful exchange for me. [00:30:33] 

 

I remember my pre-Kenya life, I loved to make things, do-it-yourself things, crafts. I love art. I get to use that to help create product now that means jobs for women around the world. And so for everything that I felt was wasted or was for me, I can now see a parallel to that, how God is using that for His glory and to bless others. 

 

We have these subscription boxes called Fair Trade Friday that provide thousands of jobs for women around the world. And it's incredible to look back and I can see the pieces of my life and how God was readying me for what I'm doing today. I draw sometimes from those past experiences, what I've learned, what I lived, and it's just a good reminder that that redemptive thread is really sewn into every piece of our life. [00:31:36] 

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Because that's helpful to see things that we may battle with, like a shopping addiction. But then even some of the positive things like your writing, I know you've said that you've always experienced pleasure while writing, but he even redeemed that to more so be others-focused. 

 

It reminds me in Episode 161, Hettie Brittz said something about God not changing our temperament, but He sanctifies it. So it's helpful to see even our sin or good desires from Him, that he can use all of those and he will waste none of it. But with your redemption story, it sounds like a lot of that took place in part to prepare you for founding some of those important ministries. Is there anything else you would like to elaborate on to teach us more about Mercy House and Fair Trade Friday? [00:32:35] 

 

Kristen Welch: Yeah. That initial trip in 2010 led my family to start Mercy House Global, which is a non-profit that funds three maternity centers in Nairobi, Kenya, that is now filled with former survival prostitutes between the ages of 12 and 16. Actually, this weekend, we rescued our 64th pregnant teen. Through that ministry, we work with indigenous Kenyans. We have an amazing team there that facilitate those rescues and the empowerment that happens afterwards.

 

But we work with the family members of many of those girls to break that cycle of poverty. A mother never wants to put her child into survival prostitution, but she does so because she has no other option. So one of the things we do is work to provide skills and training so that women have other options. [00:33:39] 

 

We do that through Fair Trade products. So we empower women to make beautiful things around the world, and then we purchase those and sell them through subscription clubs at Fair Trade Friday. We have an online store and a shopping app and retail stores, a lot of different ways to sell that product where we take the proceeds.

 

It's basically a full-circle ministry that proceeds go back into those maternity homes. So it's been really beautiful, really hard, but a really incredible journey of how God can do anything with anyone. I'm living proof of that.

 

Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at TheSavvySauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:34:42] If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox.

 

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Well, Kristen, something that's also amazing about these ministries is that you've been able to involve your family in all of this. And clearly you have a knack for telling stories. So will you tell us more about the victories and lessons learned from your first trip to Kenya as a family?

 

Kristen Welch: Yes. I feel like that, thankfully, memories fade because that first trip to Kenya in 2011 with my family was amazing, just the opportunity, but it was also really hard. [00:35:49] I made a lot of mistakes. And I think that's part of... if you've followed this story or read about Mercy House, how it started, where we are today, we use the word scrappy a lot because we don't give up, but we usually do things the hard way. 

 

And I am no exception to that. But I think it's also a good example of God doesn't wait on us to have everything figured out. He just needs our willingness and our obedience. And we kind of mess up along the way.

 

I have really tried to be vulnerable through all those seasons just so that I don't ever want anyone to think that we started Mercy House as a family because we were the right family to do it or a perfect family or a good family. 

 

On that first trip, I didn't want to take too many clothes because I wanted to use our suitcases to take the needed supplies for the maternity homes. [00:36:57] I think we were there three weeks and I packed enough for basically five days. So we washed our clothes. I had never washed clothes by hand before. So that was a huge learning curve and we would hang them up to dry. But the area where the first maternity home that we rented, we now own the homes, but years ago we rented them, it was in the mountains and it was very cool in the morning and evening so the clothes didn't dry.

 

And so we woke up one morning, it was much cooler than I expected. And my youngest was four years old and so her clothes weren't dry and she was cold. So I put her clothes in the microwave, which hindsight, so the leggings caught on fire. I have a picture that I framed that is of my kids with some of their Kenyan friends. And she's wearing a little dress and she's layered and she has those leggings on underneath. [00:37:59] 

 

I know that the entire bottom is burned out. So it's just a good reminder that I don't always know what I'm doing, but God is good. But yeah, I think between that and overdosing my kids on malaria medicine and trying to figure out how to walk through this messy, ordinary, extraordinary faith-filled journey. I think it just has reminded me that wherever God leads us, God is with us. And we don't have to have it figured out. It doesn't have to be perfect. It won't be. It won't be perfect. It's going to be real and it's going to be hard. 

 

A few years ago, I would say a component of my life is always wanting to feel safe and to keep my kids safe. When I started taking my family to Kenya, that raised a lot of eyebrows. One trip I was going to Kenya and there had been a terrorist attack in the country. [00:39:08] Everybody was trying to talk me out of going. I talked to my husband and he felt like I should go, and I had a peace about going, and so I made that trip. 

 

I remember sitting on my bed and pulling up the news and the Boston Marathon bombing had happened. And some of the people from my house church who had discouraged me from going to Kenya were actually in Boston for the marathon. I remember immediately checking to make sure they were okay and just marveling at the fact that no place is safe and God doesn't call us to safety. We're safest when we're in the center of His will. It was a good reminder.

 

And really, it's something I've held closely since because I have been in some situations that have been a little scary in the last dozen years. [00:40:12] But knowing that I'm going where Jesus leads me, and He's with me, and He has numbered the hairs on my head, and He has my days numbered. And so I'm able to walk forward in obedience, even when it comes to my family and wanting to keep them safe, but knowing that the safest place is with Jesus.

 

Laura Dugger: And Jesus often leads us to countercultural parenting. So what fruit has been produced for your family from focusing on generosity as a family?

 

Kristen Welch: Oh, so many things. It's interesting having young adults. My oldest will be 22 in a couple of weeks, and she was in the fourth grade when we started Mercy House. My son was a second grader, and then my youngest was just a toddler. So watching how their lives have been shaped and their futures have been altered, without a doubt, I know this is because of what has happened in my husband and I, in our hearts. [00:41:19] 

 

Not to say it's always been easy. I'm sure there are things that we could have done differently, or that my children wish we would have done differently, maybe to help them fit in culture and navigate.

 

But I love that I have raised generous kids who still teach me every day about generosity. When my youngest was in kindergarten, she had her first play date, and it was someone that came home with us from school. I didn't know the family very well, but the parent agreed to let their little girl come and play with my little girl after school. And it was so cute hearing my, I guess she was probably five or six at the time, give a tour of our house to her new friend. 

 

When she got to our refrigerator, it was covered with faces of beautiful families that we support, families that don't look like ours, from all different countries, through Compassion International, through Mercy House. [00:42:25] 

 

Her friend, I remember walking by the kitchen and she was like, "Who are all these people?" And my daughter said, these are people that we love and people we help. And then without missing a beat, she said, "Who does your family help?" And I thought it was so neat to hear this innocent question from a child who knew no other way of living that God put us on this earth to help other people.

 

So it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and who. That's what we're supposed to do. And so raising kids in light of that. My oldest daughter is planning on being an art therapist. She wants to help young adults and children through trauma using art. And then my son is working towards being a physical therapist. He wants to help people physically overcome challenges. 

 

I think it's neat to see that helping people is a core component of our family. [00:43:30] I know that there have been sacrifices made along the way, and there have been fights and arguments and lots of counseling sessions, because the Mercy House childhood we have given our kids has also been difficult. But at the end of the day, I think we can all say we're very thankful for offering our lunches to Jesus and seeing what He will do with them.

 

Laura Dugger: And you've summed it up well before when you said, when we give our lives away, we naturally raise givers. Do you have any other stories to share related to that?

 

Kristen Welch: Yeah. I think kids end up lighting the way sometimes. I was taking my son to youth group, and we picked up several kids normally, and he added a third boy to the route. I was exasperated because we didn't leave in enough time, and I felt rushed. [00:44:34] I was like, "How many kids are you going to invite to church?" Which sounds terrible, but it was the question I asked. 

 

And I remember catching his eye in the rearview mirror, and he looked at me, and he was like, "How many seats do we have in our van, Mom?" And I was like, "Okay, yeah, we had an empty seat." And I love that raising our kids with that goal in mind, there's always room for more. 

 

It's been interesting moving into this season where we do have extra beds in our house. As our kids are beginning to leave the nest, I've already been asked by one or two of my kids, who's going to fill that? And it's just a different way to look at what we've been given. 

 

My kids have a love for international students. So oftentimes, when they come home for the weekend or for Easter, or a break from school, they'll have an international kid with them. [00:45:34] I think it's a beautiful life when we can share what we have with others.

 

Laura Dugger: I think it's so helpful to hear this all come full circle to how God specifically led you to enjoy Jesus now as the essence of your life rather than the add-on. But if anyone else wants to apply that same lesson to their own life, what are some helpful questions that you suggest we begin to ask ourselves?

 

Kristen Welch: I think it's looking at what's in our hands. What has God given us? For me, it was I love to write. I wanted to be a writer as an eighth-grade girl, and that desire never went away. And that's taken really the form of storytelling. I actually do very little writing these days, but I get to tell the stories of women around the world. [00:46:27] 

 

I think what's in your hand? Maybe you make the best chocolate chip cookie in the entire state. And those cookies can provide jobs for women transitioning out of difficult situations [inaudible]  in bakery, or maybe you have the best voice in the church, and you can offer voice lessons to kids in need.

 

I mean, there's so many. I think we're all different, and God has given every person unique gifts. I think it's what is He put in our hands that doesn't seem like much sometimes. It's just maybe a small talent, maybe a little bit of money. But how can we lay that down and offer that as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto him? It's an act of worship. I also believe it's a doorway into a new place, a new journey that you never know where it will lead when we say yes to God. [00:47:39] 

 

Laura Dugger: I appreciate you sharing where your yeses to the Lord have led you. In our show notes today, we're going to link to your website so people can learn more about your ministries and have the chance to look through some of the books that you've published. I still have one final question for you. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, Kristen, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Kristen Welch: Well, I would say it's... I love the term sweet spot, which is I define it as the place where our skill collides with our passion and God's timing. So it's like this recipe where we take what we're good at, what we love to do, and we give it to God. And when His timing is right, He takes it and He does amazing things with it. [00:48:45] 

 

So I would say my practical advice is find your sweet spot. Look for that thing that you do well that can somehow lead others to a life of knowing Jesus. It really is a sweet, sweet place to be.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Kristen, it's been compelling to get to hear your stories of God's faithfulness and redemption and His lessons on generosity. You've definitely motivated me to prayerfully steward what He's entrusted to me. I hope that's true of everyone listening who's thinking the same thing.

 

But you have such a warm personality and you're very humble in the way you share your stories. So thank you very much for being my guest today.

 

Kristen Welch: Thank you so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. [00:49:45] And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:50:44] 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:51:45] 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:52:44] 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

173. Life is Better with the Holy Spirit with Jeannie Cunnion

 

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" 2 Corinthians 3:17

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Jeannie Cunnion is an author who is well known for writing stories that make much of the wild love of Jesus because of how her life has been rescued by it. She is also a beloved Bible teacher and sought-after speaker who has been featured on outlets such as the TODAY show, Fox News, The 700 Club, and Focus on the Family. Jeannie, who holds a master’s degree in social work, worked as a counselor and trainer in the adoption field before writing. She is a wife to Mike and a mama to five boys she is crazy about. To know Jeannie is to know her deep love for Danita’s Children’s Home in Haiti. Connect with her online at JeannieCunnion.com, on Instagram, or Facebook.

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What are some benefits of the Holy Spirit's daily presence?
2. How can we recognize if we are really relying on the power of God’s Spirit inside us or trying to do life in our own strength?
3. Will you share about a time you confused the Holy Spirit's protection as punishment? 

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Don't Miss Out!

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Justin Maust

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I'm excited to introduce you to an old friend and today's sponsor, Justin Maust. He's an expert EOS implementer, a certified speaker for the John Maxwell team, and a passionate coach committed to glorify God by helping business owners get everything they want from their business. 

 

Jeannie Cunnion is a gifted author and speaker, and I'm thrilled to get to host her as my guest today. Through personal stories, examples, and scripture, she's going to unpack transformative lessons about the Holy Spirit, and she'll reveal how life is truly better with the Holy Spirit.

 

The title of her recent book is her urgent desire for all of us, Don't Miss Out.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jeannie. [00:01:17] 

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. 

 

Laura Dugger: Will you just give us a glimpse of who you are and what you do?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: I am a mom, a wife. My husband and I have five boys. They range from five to 24. I am an adoption social worker by training, and I kind of stumbled into the writing life about eight years ago. I grew up as a preacher's kid, been following Jesus since I was about 8 years old, although I like to say I've been stumbling along ever since. I am ever aware of my need for grace. And I am a writer. I started writing back in about 2013, and now I can't imagine doing anything else. I just love the opportunity to write and speak about Jesus and the way He's changed my life.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and God recently called and equipped you to write a book on the Holy Spirit. I know that I'm so grateful, because I think it's profoundly important to talk about the Holy Spirit. [00:02:18] But why do you also think that this third person of the Trinity can be considered controversial?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Oh, yeah, unfortunately, He is so controversial. I think one of the things that's going to change, that is if we actually just take the time to get to know Him for who He really is, which is what inspired me to write Don't Miss Out. But yeah, unfortunately, there's just so many stereotypes and stigmas because of the way we have seen the Holy Spirit used and abused. Things have been done in His name that are not of Him. 

 

And so I think there's this belief that the Holy Spirit is really reserved for the extremes, that He is primarily just for the super spiritual or the super strange. And if you wouldn't put yourself in one of those extremes, then you don't know His role in your life. Or you might be keeping Him at arm's length because you've seen things, again, seen things done in His name that are not of Him. [00:03:21] 

 

Or your story might look a little bit more like mine, which is I didn't put Him in one of those extreme boxes, but I really didn't know how essential He is in the Christian life. I think a lot of us just don't know, even though I was raised as a preacher's kid in a Presbyterian church that was charismatic. So, the Holy Spirit was not foreign to me at all, nor was I afraid of Him. But I really put Him in a spiritual gifts box. And I knew He was for spiritual gifts, and I knew He produced the fruit of the Spirit in our lives, but I just didn't know all that God sent Him to do in me and for me and through me. So, I spent the majority of my Christian life missing out on really benefiting from the full extent of His role and His function in my life.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, we've mentioned your book. The full title is Don't Miss Out: Daring to Believe Life is Better with the Holy Spirit. [00:04:23] I loved reading it. It highlights 30 benefits of the Holy Spirit's daily presence. But will you just choose about five of those that were most surprising that you discovered through this writing process? 

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Sure. I think one of the things that stood out to me the most is when I really went on my own journey of really asking the question, "Who is the Holy Spirit? What does the Holy Spirit do? And why does it matter so much?" 

 

One of the first things I actually did was I called my mom and my dad and I said, “Hey, what are some good books you can recommend on the Holy Spirit?” My mom mentioned several, all of which I devoured. But before we hung up the phone, she said, "Jeannie, I'm just curious, what's inspiring you to study the Holy Spirit?" And I laughed and I said, "The Holy Spirit." He is making me curious about Him. It was an answer to a prayer which I was praying, which was this, "Lord, I want all of you. I don't want to miss out on any part of you. I want to know all of you and all your fullness." [00:05:22] And really the way the Lord answered that prayer was by making me curious about the Holy Spirit, really reintroducing me to the Holy Spirit. 

 

So as I began to read and study and just look for Him in Scripture, I remember one of the things my dad said was, Jeannie, just go to John 14 through 16. Read those three chapters. God only knows how many times you've read them before, but go look at the work of the Holy Spirit. Look at what Jesus said. What did Jesus say about the person of the Holy Spirit? 

 

One of the things that struck me the most, really, I mean, jaw on the floor, was when Jesus was preparing His disciples for His ascension, He said to them in John 16, He said, "It is better for you that I go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit will come." And in other translations, it reads, "It is to your advantage. It is for your good." 

 

So Jesus is telling the disciples, it is to your advantage, it's for your good that I leave so that the Holy Spirit will come. [00:06:25] And Scripture tells us that the disciples were filled with sorrow because they didn't understand how anything in all the world could be better than Jesus' physical presence with them. 

 

And I resonated with their response. I think a lot of Christians do. We say, Jesus, I don't want, quote-unquote, just your spirit. I want you. And they didn't understand, like many of us today don't understand that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. It is the Spirit of Christ. He was going to send His Spirit to live inside of them so they would no longer just be dependent on His physical presence but now they would have the Spirit of Christ taking up residence inside of them so that they would never be alone and they would never be without what they needed to spread the gospel. And I just think that's incredible.

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you're summing up some of this that He really is to our advantage. I love another way that you put it in your book. Can you elaborate on three different ways that God reveals Himself to us through the three persons of the Trinity? [00:07:30] 

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Yeah, I would love to. You know, one of the things I think is so beautiful about the Holy Spirit is when we think about Him as God's personal presence inside of us, right, I mean, that's really mind-blowing if you think about it, that God takes up residence inside of us.

 

It is the personal presence of God in the person of the Holy Spirit. One of the things that I found so fascinating in my study was something that was actually written by Billy Graham about the distinct functions. And I'll just read it to you because I think it's so powerful.

 

But he says, "The operations of the Holy Spirit among men in the three periods of human history may be defined by three words: upon, with, and in. In the Old Testament, He came upon selected persons and remained for a season. In the Gospels, He is represented as dwelling with the disciples in the person of Christ. But from the second chapter of Acts onward, He is spoken of as being in the people of God." [00:08:29] 

 

So what is so incredible for us today is our post-Pentecost promise is that we never have to fear Him leaving us or abandoning us. And I think that's incredible, right? We know we can grieve Him; we know we can quench Him and those are important things to understand and those are things that I unpack in the book, but we never have to fear losing Him. You know, when Jesus said, "I will never leave you as orphans," it was because He was putting His Spirit inside of us so that we would never be without the power of Christ to live the Christian life.

 

Laura Dugger: I love some of those other truths that you're bringing up, too, Jeannie, just about Him never leaving us. I think about that in moments where I'm awakened in the middle of the night with insomnia or I'm having a really tough parenting day and there's no other adult to process with. Those are times I'm most grateful for the Holy Spirit and just His availability. And He's so generous with His presence to us. [00:09:28] 

 

Something else that you talk about is a super over natural life. So what does it mean to live a super over natural life?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: You know, one of the things that really struck me in writing Don't Miss Out was how often in life we settle for the natural. We settle for what is only possible in the power of self. And I'm speaking about myself here, right? That God has given us the opportunity to live a super over natural life, to experience the power of God breaking into our everyday life and rhythms. And yet we settle for doing things in our own strength. We settle for doing things in our own power. We miss out on seeing what's only possible by the power of God. Right?

 

If we're not saying, "Holy Spirit, come, I welcome your work. I welcome your presence. I'm going to lean into your leading. I'm going to yield to your nudging and your conviction," when we don't do that, we don't get to experience what's only possible with God. [00:10:40] And so this super over natural life is really an opportunity to know the presence of God, the fullness of God. 

 

Like you said, in those moments where we're at the end of a long day, right, we need to know that He is in us and for us and with us and He's going to give us what we need to get through the end of the day, to get our kids in bed, to love them with patience and to reflect the heart of God to them.

 

He's going to give us what we need in hard conversations with our spouses or co-workers. He's going to be there providing the power that we need for life that can be so hard and heavy. And that should give us such assurance that we don't go through it alone.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:11:26] <music>

 

Sponsor: Thank you to my friend and sponsor, Justin Maust, for making this episode possible. As an expert EOS implementer, Justin has provided over 500 full-day sessions helping business owners implement EOS into their business. EOS is the Entrepreneurial Operating System, which is a complete set of simple and practical tools to help entrepreneurs get what they want from their businesses. 

 

Justin helps business owners and leadership teams achieve three things: Vision, traction, and health. For vision, that's simply helping you get everyone in the organization 100% on the same page with where they're going and how they plan to get there. For traction, that's helping to instill focus, discipline, and accountability throughout the company so that everyone executes on that vision every day. 

 

When we think of healthy organizations, let's be honest, there's often a fair amount of dysfunction with teams. But Justin loves helping leaders create a more cohesive, functional, and healthy leadership team. And once the leaders are healthy, they help the whole team become healthy. 

 

Mark and I have been friends with Justin and his wife, Jenny, for years. We've witnessed them apply these practices to their own life and their family and their business and the results are transformational. With Justin's love for Jesus and passion to serve business owners to be better stewards of their businesses, I highly recommend you learn more about his services at his website, justinmaust.com. That's Justinmaust.com. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

[00:13:09] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: And so then how could we recognize if we are really relying on the power of God's Spirit inside of us or trying to do life in our own strength?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: I started with the question, you know, how can I live in the power of the Holy Spirit? And one of the questions that flowed out of that for me was this. It was, how can I make the Holy Spirit feel more welcome in His home? Because the truth is, I am home to the Holy Spirit. Laura, you are home to the Holy Spirit. He takes up residence inside of us.

 

I think about how much time I spend making my physical home, a loving place and a warm place and a welcoming place for my family and my friends. But I want them to be at peace. I want them to feel welcome. And it really convicted me because I thought, Oh, how much energy and effort do I put into making my heart a welcoming home for the Holy Spirit to dwell? [00:14:04] That means repenting of my sin. That means receiving the forgiveness and the grace and the mercy of God. It means yielding to those nudges and that conviction.

 

So to live in the power of the Holy Spirit, we can't be grieving Him and then we can't be quenching Him. And so we need to yield to His leading. Galatians 5 says, let the Holy Spirit guide your life and then you won't be doing what the sinful nature craves, because these two forces are always battling each other. 

 

So the question for us every day is, am I letting the Holy Spirit guide me and lead me so that His power is unleashed in my life? Or am I turning my head away from that nudging or that conviction and therefore quenching Him or grieving Him and then not experiencing the full power of the person of the Holy Spirit in my life? [00:15:07] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you bring up that word "nudging". Do you have any personal stories about just little nudges that the Holy Spirit has prompted you?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Yeah. I mean, I think the more we pay attention, the more we realize He's basically doing that all day long, right? Whether it's with my kids when they're disobeying or arguing and my flesh wants to let my tongue unleash on them, that I want to respond in anger or with harshness or bitterness, and I feel the Holy Spirit reminding me, Anger doesn't lead to repentance and hold your tongue, Jeannie. And yet I have a choice in that moment. 

 

Or if I'm in an argument with my spouse or a disagreement with my spouse, and I feel like I'm justified in my position and I want to hold on to bitterness. And the Holy Spirit is nudging me to go to him for reconciliation and forgiveness, and yet the flesh is saying, you know, no, you have the right to be bitter, even though I know that grieves the Holy Spirit. [00:16:09] 

 

Or little things where you're walking out... I tell the story in the book. I'm walking out of Dunkin Donuts, and it was a long line and I had places to be. And there was a woman sitting on the curb who clearly needed help and wasn't able to go in and get her own coffee. And I felt the Holy Spirit say, "Go back inside and get her a coffee, and then give it to her and tell her that God sees her and He loves her."

 

You know, and we have opportunities in those moments to either follow those nudges or to go, "Lord, I got places to go and things to do, and I'm just going to keep on going." And the truth is, that moment blessed me more than it blessed her, because I saw how it touched her. 

 

These are all opportunities for us each day to say, well, Holy Spirit, am I going to follow those nudges, that sense in my gut or that thought in my mind, you know, call this friend. The Lord puts somebody on your mind and you're not sure why, but He nudges you to reach out to somebody who might need you.

 

 Or, you know, there can be awkward times, right? I tell a story in the book about, I was talking to a friend at the pool and she said something along the lines of, you know, Jeannie, I don't consider myself a religious person, but the things that you post on Instagram have made me curious about Jesus and God. [00:17:16] And she continued to talk and I felt the Holy Spirit encouraging me to tell her that God sees her and that He loves her. Just again, the simple affirmation that He knows you and that He wants to have a relationship with you. 

 

I remember internally, like in my mind, arguing with the Holy Spirit, like, Oh, but I like having friends, you know? I don't want to be the weird girl at the pool who like says things that takes people off guard." But I've learned the Holy Spirit can be trusted. 

 

So I said it and her eyes actually welled up with tears instantly. And she said, "Really, you think so?" And I said, "Oh, girl, I know so. I know so." And it opened the door for me to share a little bit more about how being in relationship with Jesus is radically different than, you know, following religion and rules. 

 

So I think the more that we pay attention and the more that we heed those nudges and follow those nudges, the more we get to experience that divine dance where He leads and we follow and, and He guides us into truth and He guides us into deeper relationship with Jesus. [00:18:23] But we have to have our eyes open for it. We have to be looking and expectant. And then I think as we do, those things become more obvious to us as we go throughout our day.

 

Laura Dugger: And then I think you're bringing up too, that there's a point where we do have a choice if we are going to surrender or obey. I love to gather perspectives on the topic of our part and God's part. So how do you believe we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to become more like Jesus?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Yeah. I mean, He has given us free will, right? So we have the choice to either let the spirit of truth guide us deeper into the truth, which is the person of Jesus Christ and in the gospel, or we have the choice to do things our own way. Right? I mean, I write in the book about how when I heed those nudges, and when I don't, I have to clean up the mess. Because the Holy Spirit is always guiding us in the perfect will of God. [00:19:24] He intercedes for us. He prays for us in accordance with the will of God. But He's always leading us in God's will for our lives. So we have a choice to make. 

 

For me, it comes down to yielding. Am I willing to yield to His authority in my life? And His conviction doesn't always feel good, even though it always is for our good. And that's an important distinction that conviction is not condemnation. So when it feels shaming, or when it's an accusing voice, we know that's the enemy. That's not the advocate. The Holy Spirit's our advocate. His job is always to lift our eyes to Jesus, to spur us to run to the Lord in repentance and to receive forgiveness. He's our advocate. He is for us. He's advocating for us. And that's His conviction. Condemnation comes from the enemy, from the accuser. It always is shameful. It always makes us want to turn away from Jesus in shame. [00:20:24] 

 

And so we have to be willing to yield to that conviction. But it's always for our good, even though it might always feel good, because it requires us to confront and deal with maybe decisions or behaviors or attitudes in our life that are not in alignment with the gospel, that He wants to purify, that He wants to change, that He wants to transform so that our lives can look more like Jesus.

 

Laura Dugger: That makes sense. Because I think my experience is whenever He's convicting me of something, it just hurts so good. There's a positivity to it. I like the way that my Aunt Mary Beth has put this before. She said in her experience, with His grace, God will keep giving us different tests until we pass. So those times that we push away the Holy Spirit or we quench Him, we can always turn to God, just repent for that and ask Him for a do-over. And I feel like He is always gracious to provide that.

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Yeah. Amen. And it's also, I think, so beautiful that it's the person of the Holy Spirit who leads us to repentance. [00:21:36] He's really the one who makes Jesus more beautiful to us, gives us the courage to go before the throne of grace and to receive that mercy and to receive that forgiveness.

 

Laura Dugger: If you've benefited in any way from The Savvy Sauce, we would love to invite you to become a Patron. If every listener gave just one dollar per month, it would completely offset all our production cost. We want to keep majority of our content free to the public. And one way to do that is with your help. Please consider joining Patreon today and finding out what perks you can receive for pledging two, five, or even $20 per month. 

 

How do you see our enemy Satan looking for opportune times to get us off track or thwart our understanding of the Holy Spirit's power in our lives?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Yeah, that was something else that really struck me as I studied the work of the Holy Spirit, because what you're referring to, I know, is the story about when Jesus was led into the desert full of the Holy Spirit and He was tempted by Satan and He defeated Satan. [00:22:43] And He had access to the same things we have access to today, which is amazing, right? He was full of the Holy Spirit and He had the Word of God. He had the sword of the Spirit, and that's what He used to defeat Satan. 

 

We have that today. The same Holy Spirit that empowered Jesus is the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. It's the same Holy Spirit that filled and radically transformed the disciples of Pentecost. And it's the same Holy Spirit that lives in you and me today. And that's wild. 

 

And yet, Scripture says that even after Jesus defeated Satan's temptation in the wilderness, it specifically says Satan left but waited for another opportune time. I've never noticed that before. And if you waited for an opportune time with Jesus, oh, we can rest assured He's waiting for opportune times with us, right? [00:23:36] He knows our weaknesses. He knows when we are, you know, the most vulnerable. And He waits for those times to lead us into temptation.

 

And yet we are never without the help of the Holy Spirit. Whenever Satan finds those opportune times to attack, maybe it's with toxic thoughts in our minds that we struggle with, really negative thoughts or destructive thinking, maybe it's, you know, struggles or addictions, whatever it is, we have the victory in the person of the Holy Spirit who lives inside of us. And He empowered Jesus and He empowers us today. And so we are never without what we need, even when He waits for those times when we are feeling most weak or most vulnerable. We have the Holy Spirit. 

 

Laura Dugger: My training is as a marriage and family therapist, and we would always talk with clients about HALT B. That's a more vulnerable time for each of us. And that stands for hungry, angry, lonely, tired, or bored. [00:24:43] Not that that gives us excuse to sin, but just to be aware when we're in those states that we're a little bit more vulnerable.

 

I think even that practical self-awareness to be aware when our enemy wants to pounce and attack us at that opportune time, like you said, just turning to the Holy Spirit and that He has abundant, endless power to help us overcome in those times of weakness. 

 

And just to personalize this topic a bit, will you share about a time that you can use the Holy Spirit's protection as punishment?

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Yeah. So it was a season in which, you know, my last book, Moms That Pray, had recently come out and I was receiving just many wonderful opportunities to travel and speak about what the Lord had taught me about my freedom in Christ as a mom. 

 

One of the things I always do when I'm asked to speak is I pray about it. And I think that's another important way that the Holy Spirit communicates with us. It's through peace. Like give me peace about this decision. [00:25:49] And I suddenly wasn't getting peace about these opportunities, and I thought, "Lord, this doesn't make any sense. You called me to write this book and now people are asking me to come speak and share the good news, this wonderful message, and suddenly I can't get peace about saying yes." 

 

My first question as I wrote the book was, "Have I done something wrong? Is there something in me that you need to correct? Are you withholding your favor on these opportunities? Why can I not get peace?" And I've learned through proceeding without peace. So I've learned the hard way that that's always a bad idea. That if the Lord doesn't give you peace about a decision, about a relationship, about any kind of next step that you're taking, that to proceed without peace is not wise.

 

And so I followed him and I just began to say, "I'm so sorry, I can't accept this invitation right now. You know, I'd love to circle back with you, but I don't have peace about traveling right now in this next season." [00:26:48] And little did I know at the time that all of these things would be changing in our lives and that my family would very much need me present. We were going to go through a lot of things. My husband's job was going to become incredibly busy. My boys were all going to go through some unique challenges and just circumstances where they really needed their mama present.

 

We went through a foster care situation that was really hard on our family and very much needed my presence and the young woman very much needed my presence while she was with us. I also didn't realize that my mom would get sick. And my mom is the one who always shows up. My mom and dad always show up and help us with the kids when I travel. And I love my kids having that experience, but I couldn't have foreseen that my mom would be sick and wouldn't be able to come help us for several, several months. So it was the Lord's protection. He knew what was coming. He knew what this next season would hold and so He withheld peace because He knew I needed to be here more than anywhere else. [00:27:46]  

 

But at the beginning, you know, I mistook that as punishment, like, "Oh no, Lord, what have I done that you're not giving me peace?" I kind of forgot that my first ministry is here at home. And when He opens the door for me to go speak, I love that and I enjoy it. But again, it's just another way that the Holy Spirit communicates with us, that He keeps us in the middle of God's will for us, right? That He is advocating for us by giving us peace when we're supposed to proceed and withholding peace when we're not.

 

Laura Dugger: And even another outcome of that, didn't that provide the margin that eventually led to the opportunity to write this book as well? 

 

Jeannie Cunnion: It did. It sure did. It was really during that season that I was praying that prayer, Lord, I want all of you. And it's because I needed all of Him going through these seasons, you know, when we were like, "Lord, I don't know how people go a day, an hour, a minute without knowing that they have you sovereign over their circumstances, that your love is in abundance for us when life feels so hard and heavy. [00:28:53] 

 

It was in that season that I was just praying, "I need all of you. I want all of you and all of your fullness and all of your glory. Fill this home. Fill our lives." And that's when he began to make me so curious about the Spirit and really gave me bandwidth to begin to study and read and just devour books by other theologians who had gone before me in getting to know the Holy Spirit in a fresh way. 

 

And ultimately led to me writing the book, even though I fought the Lord on that for a while. I said, "Lord, I love learning about your Spirit, this is changing my life, but I do not feel equipped to write this book. I am not Francis Chan or Billy Graham." And like you said earlier, it's such a complicated topic. It's controversial and I don't like controversy. 

 

But the more my own heart was moved and the more my life was transformed by leaning into the person of the Holy Spirit and developing that relationship and just growing in so much gratitude for how He's been there all along and He's been working in my life, even when I wasn't aware of it and now knowing that the more I lean into Him and welcome His work and do life with Him, the better it gets. [00:30:10] 

 

And it became the book I couldn't not write, Laura. I just could not write it because a) I knew the Lord would equip me. He always does. He always equips us in the work He calls us to. But it was also something I couldn't keep to myself because I couldn't believe how much I'd missed out on, even as somebody who'd been following Jesus for most of my life. 

 

I was so captivated by the presence of the Holy Spirit that it became the book I had to write because I know so many other Christians, women in my life who love Jesus, follow Jesus, but didn't feel like they had a full understanding of the person of the Holy Spirit. Our conversations led me to realize a lot of us are missing out on who he is and what he does and why it matters so much. 

 

And so that's really what led me to write the book and I'm just so glad. It's been so fun to watch God work through it and use it to just draw His sons and daughters deeper into kind of that relationship with the Holy Spirit, whose ultimate goal, whose whole aim is to make Jesus more beautiful to us. [00:31:11] His whole goal, as Jesus said is to glorify Jesus. So the larger the Holy Spirit becomes in our lives, the more our lives will be a love song for Jesus. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. Because likely we're all waiting on something right now. So when we get to hear your situation and that experience come full circle, I think it can help us view our situation in a different light, but especially in line with God's promises that even with holding peace can be for our protection and not as punishment. 

 

Jeannie, I know you have so much more that you could share with us. Where can everyone go to learn more from you? 

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Everything is pretty much Jeannie Cunnion. My website, my Instagram, my Facebook, it's all Jeannie Cunnion. There's tons of links on my Instagram where you can free resources about the Holy Spirit. There's a Holy Spirit manifesto that I wrote. There's links to buy the book. And even on my website, if you want to study the Holy Spirit with some friends or a community or in your book group, there's actually a free book club kit on my website. [00:32:15] I'd encourage you to read it with some friends and create conversation and study the person of the Holy Spirit together. And you can find that free resource on my website. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in today's show notes. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, Jeannie, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Jeannie Cunnion: I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but this is what's coming to my mind. My savvy sauce is that life is better with the Holy Spirit. And I know that's the subtitle for the book, but goodness, life is so much better when we let the Holy Spirit lead us, when we let Him take us by the hand and lead us into that life-giving, soul-satisfying relationship with Jesus that we were made for.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Jeannie, you have such a kind and pleasant way about yourself, and I'm assuming that is the Holy Spirit's work in you. But I enjoyed spending time with you today. Thank you so much for being my guest. [00:33:18] 

 

Jeannie Cunnion: Oh, Laura, thank you so much for having me. 

 

Laura Dugger: Ever since launching this podcast in 2018, our team has tried to release at least one episode every Monday morning. In addition, we also launched a secret bonus episode for paying Patons on the first of every month. But in 2022, we're changing things up a bit. We will continue to release the bonus episode for paying Paton. But on those weeks, when it's the first of the month, that will be the only episode going live, which means next week, on Monday, there will not be a brand-new episode available for the general public. 

 

If you've benefited from any messages on The Savvy Sauce, we would encourage you to support our work through joining Patreon. You can go to thesavvysauce.com, click on the Patreon tab, click "Join Patreon here", and then follow the prompts so that you can have access to all these bonus episodes and downloadable scripture cards. We hope you join us there. Otherwise, we'll see you back here in two weeks. [00:34:21] 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:35:27] 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:36:27] 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:37:22] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

172. Intentional Marriage and Parenting with Drew and Sara Anthony

 

Psalm 16:11 (NIV) "You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Drew and Sara Anthony will celebrate 28 years of marriage this year. They have 4 children ranging in age from 16-24. In addition, they run a house flipping business together. Drew and Sara recently discovered a passion for sailing. They combined their love for sailing and heart for helping strengthen marriages by leading marriage sailing adventures. They’ve seen God at work throughout their whole marriage and for that they are so grateful. 

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Were there any traditions or habits you established as an engaged or newlywed couple that set you up for success?
2. As you reflect back, what are some things you did during the season of raising little children that you now see the payoff as they are becoming adults?
3. How have you kept the romance alive through all these stages of marriage?

 

Sara's Blog Post on Her Goal Group

 

Marriage Themed Podcast Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

 

A God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Annie Chapman 

 

Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen 

 

Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau 

 

Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 

 

Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand

 

How to Align Your Finances with Your Values with Natalie Taylor

 

Managing Family, Career, and Health with Leslie Neslage

 

Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid

 

Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt

 

Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter

 

Gender Differences and Common Conflict in Relationships with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George

 

Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson

 

Patreon 4 Understanding Service Marriages with Licensed Professional Counselor, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers

 

Practical Steps for Discipling Our Children with Licensed Professional Counselor, Jen Rathmell

 

Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau

 

Practical Parenting Tools with Author and Speaker, Sue Heimer

 

Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

 

Deep Dive into the Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

 

Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack

 

Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

 

Understanding Gender Differences in Marriage with Dr. Ted and Ang Bryant

 

Marriage and Motherhood with Counselor, Wife, and Mother to 5, Aja Duncan

 

Top 10 Listener Questions Related to the Mother-in-Law/Daughter-in-Law Relationship with author, Annie Chapman

 

Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid

 

Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Author, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers

 

Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Perspective in Parenting in the Midst of Sorrow, Betrayal, and Grief with Former Children’s Pastor, Teacher, and Writer, Penny Harrison

 

Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen

 

Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships 

 

Marital Communication and Intentional Family Life with Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Susan Seay

 

Maximizing Sexual Intimacy During the Three Most Challenging Phases of Marriage with Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner

 

Stress Management, Self-Care, and Offering Grace to Important People in Our Life with Author and Popular Speaker, Jill Savage

 

Simple Solutions to Help You Prepare For, Enrich, or Save Your Marriage with Dr. Matthew Turvey

 

Thriving at Work, Home, and Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Business Owner, Crystal Paine

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part 1 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman 

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part 2 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

 

Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson

 

Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

 

Parenting the Prodigal Child And God’s Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin

 

Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans

 

Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George

 

Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller

 

Fruitful with Laura Dugger

 

Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee

 

5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

 

Four Personality Types with Dale Wilsher

 

Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow

 

Applying Business Strategies to Your Home Management with Susan Seay

 

Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery

 

Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

 

The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee

 

Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn

 

Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein

 

Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein

 

Understanding and Delighting in Our Differences with Bill & Pam Farrel 

 

Guiding Our Children Through Their Emotions with Julie Roth

 

Thriving with Kids at Home During Quarantine with Amanda Leman

 

Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

 

Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt

 

Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Ways to Enjoy Summer with Your Family with Krista Gilbert

 

Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard

 

Communication and Healthy Conflict Resolution with Kelley Gray

 

Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

 

Powerful Purpose of Introverts with Holley Gerth

 

Building Love Together in Blended Families with Ron Deal

 

Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner

 

Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant

 

Romantic Love in Marriage with Dr. Willard Harvey

 

Parenting All Temperaments with Jenny Boyett

 

Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington

 

Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day

 

Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons

 

Parenting 0-18 with Daniel Huerta 

 

Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler

 

Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand

 

Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton

 

Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)

 

Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry

 

Intentional Questions to Ask Our Kids with Susan Seay

 

Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick

 

Connection and Correction in Parenting with Chad Hayenga

 

Temperaments and Power of Words in Parenting with Kathleen Edelman

 

Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes

 

Nine Ways to Connect with God with Gary Thomas 

 

Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1

 

Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2

 

Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta

 

Beneficial Rhythms in Marriage with Chris and Jenni Graebe

 

Inspiring Perspective in Parenting with Kay Wyma

 

Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

 

Patreon-Only Marriage Related Episodes:

 

Patreon 7 Intentional Family Life with Podcasters, Heather Toews and Heidi Bolt

 

Patreon 9 Healthy Relationships with Our Friends and Our Spouse with Author and Speaker, Sue Heimer

 

Patreon 16 Enjoy a Thriving Marriage with Dr. Matthew Turvey

 

Patreon 19 Applying Personality Training to Parenting with Dale Wilsher

 

Patreon 20 Personal Stories of God's Provision with Hope Ware

 

Patreon 21 Leading in Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

 

Patreon 22 Vision in Motherhood while Parenting a Child with Special Needs

 

Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

 

Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery

 

Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

 

Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Patreon 34 Lead with Questions in Parenting with Stacy Bellward

 

Marriage Related Articles:

 

Our Valentine’s Day Tradition

 

10 Recommendations for Enjoying Sex More in Marriage

 

Rhythms and Why They Matter

 

Fun Daily and Weekly Marital Enrichment Habits

 

Fun Monthly and Yearly Marital Enrichment Habits

 

How Do You Know It’s Worthwhile?

 

Marriage Scripture I am Loving

 

Marriage: Foundational Questions to Promote Connection

 

How Does Your Family of Origin Affect Your Marriage?

 

How is Self-Awareness Beneficial in Marriage?

 

Most Helpful Gender Difference to Understand

 

One Enjoyable Way to Serve Together in Marriage

 

Practical Ways to Rekindle Love in Marriage

 

Healthy Communication in Marriage

 

Marriage: Growing in Conflict Resolution Skills

 

Ten Financial Questions to Ask Your Spouse

 

Wise and Practical Marriage Tips

 

Our Wise and Foolish List in Marriage *Bonus Content When You Join Our Email List*

 

Sex in Marriage, Part One

 

Sex in Marriage, Part Two

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Marriage Resources

 

Sexual Wholeness Resources

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Drew and Sara Anthony are my guests today, and they're going to be celebrating 28 years of marriage later this year. They have four children, and they also have a house-flipping business that they run together.

 

They recently discovered this passion they have for sailing, and they've combined that love for sailing and their heart for helping strengthen marriages by leading marriage sailing adventures. This is where our paths originally intersected, and I've written about this sailing adventure on one of the articles at thesavvysauce.com. But I'm so grateful that that experience led me to cross paths with Drew and Sara, and I could tell that they were an amazing couple, that if we lived closer, I would have wanted to meet with them as a mentor couple. [00:01:33] So I invited them to become guests on the show, and today we're going to talk about all things marriage.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Drew and Sara.

 

  Good to be here.

 

Sara Anthony: Really glad to be here, yeah. We feel welcomed. 

 

Laura Dugger: We're so excited to host you. Let's just begin with a story. How did the two of you meet and fall in love?

 

Sara Anthony: I was graduating high school and Drew was a sophomore in college. We had some mutual friends, and he had come to visit them, best summer ever, because all of our mutual friends, we all hung out and went to the beach and played beach volleyball and went on the sea dues and all the things. 

 

During that time, we discovered that maybe it was a little more than friendship. And that was the beginning of our relationship. We dated for about three years. We were engaged in there for a while as well. [00:02:34] Drew ended up staying and going to the same college as me, and we were youth leaders together, and that kind of just put us on a trajectory of later marriage and kids and all the things.

 

Laura Dugger: What are some of the challenges that you two have faced, and how did you get through those hard times?

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah. I mean, obviously, in 28 years, there's always going to be challenges, whether it's within your relationship or issues with your kids. I think for us, one of the main things is that we're grounded in our faith, and we have that not only together but individually. So being able to individually seek the Lord, get guidance, as well as coming together, praying together. 

 

There's been times with having four kids, and they've all either gone through the teenage years or in it, that in and of itself will put you on your knees. [00:03:35] We've had circumstances where we have had to fervently pray and fast at times for just different things that we are seeing in our kids that we're like, Oh, Lord, we need you in this moment. It has also, over time, and as we've seen the faithfulness of the Lord and Him answer those prayers, and it not only strengthens our relationship with Him but also, I would say, with each other is a benefit of that.

 

Drew: Yeah. For example, I was a youth pastor in Michigan for 10 years. During my time as a youth pastor, I was under the leadership of probably five different pastors, five different leaders, because every pastor, for example, brings in their style of leadership. They bring in how they want to see their ministry run. And a lot of times, as a youth pastor, you just feel a lot of pressure. [00:04:37] 

 

We weren't really sure what God had. After doing it for 10 years, we're at a stage where we're like, Okay, how long are we going to do this? God, what do you want from us? It was at a stage when my dad, all of a sudden, came down with meningitis, and he was in ICU, and we were in Ohio and trying to figure out. I felt like God was leading us to do something different. We weren't really sure what, but we knew that God had something out there for us. 

 

We were on our way home from Ohio after seeing my dad, and Sara just mentioned to me, she goes, "You know, I feel like we're supposed to move to Georgia." I had felt that for a while, but Sara, being from Michigan, and she has a bunch of sisters, strong family ties in Michigan, and I just felt like, you know, "Hon, I could never ask you to do that, but I was waiting on just seeing if the Lord would speak to your heart." [00:05:38] 

 

So that had just happened right after I was kind of seeking the Lord on that. And so we ended up moving to Georgia and kind of leaving that job, not really sure. My brother was a senior pastor in Georgia. And so we went to Georgia without really knowing what we were going to do.

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah, we didn't know all the details of how it was going to iron out. And it's funny because we think back on that now, and having adult children like, "Oh my goodness, if they would have come to us in the same scenario, we would have been like, no, you don't leave a job before you have another one." 

 

So it really was a huge step of faith for us, but one that we totally had a peace about, and one that I typically wouldn't have had peace about because it was so far outside of our comfort zone. But I think in that step of faith, we also saw the hand of God and saw just Him going before us with a quick sale of our home, with some property that we had owned and thought was going to be a quick sale, and it wasn't for several years, and then all of a sudden when we made the decision to move to Georgia, that land sold. [00:06:50] So just different things like that where we had that sense of God saying, "I'm in this, I'm with you."

 

Drew: You know, I was thinking about that stage because, I mean, our time in youth ministry was incredible. I mean, we just saw God do some real cool things in the inner city, in the youth group. I did a lot with junior high students. And so there was great things. And sometimes we can get a little comfortable. You know, maybe there was that aspect of our life where God allowed certain things in our life to kind of poke us and move us and stir us. 

 

Because since we've been in Georgia, I mean, there's been a lot of amazing things that have happened, and God's used the move to really do some cool things in our life.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that story because I think it just illustrates how it wasn't until the other side of your obedience that you got a clearer picture, and it definitely required faith. But how gracious of Him to supply the peace prior to moving. [00:07:53] 

 

Sara Anthony: Yes, that's for sure. I mean, I just want to reiterate that, too, just because it felt out of character for me, even when I would say to my sister, "I know when I say this story, it sounds crazy. I can hear that, and yet I have a peace that surpasses all understanding." And so we continued to move forward with it.

 

Laura Dugger: And now what are some of your core values and priorities as a married couple?

 

Sara Anthony: Well, I mean, I would say that we, for sure, are founded on biblical truths. That's always been something that we cling to. When I think of words that I hope would describe us, one would be legacy, that we are leaving a legacy for our children and for our children's children.

 

We were gifted the just generous hard work of our parents who changed the trajectory and introduced us to Jesus and grew us up in His truths. [00:09:00] So we recognize that to whom much is given, much is required, and so we have done our best to pass that on to our children. I know when we have talked about words that we want to describe us. 

 

Generosity is another word that when people think of us, that we would not just with financially, but with our time, that we would be thoughtful and giving.

 

Drew: We take our job as parents very seriously, too. There are actions that we do and goals that we set for ourselves that kind of promote us to just that relationship, that parental relationship with our kids, to where it's not just kind of we want to make sure that they fulfill a set of rules that we lay out. But we want a relationship with them, personal time with them, one-on-one time with each kid. That's very important for us.

 

When they mess up, that they know that we still love them and care about them and we notice them, and that we are cheering them on. [00:10:03] Yes, there may be consequences for their actions, but to be able to respond to those actions with just a heart of love and discipline. I think we take that very seriously. 

 

And we take our relationship with each other very seriously, too. I think over the years, we're not investing less in each other and more in our kids. I think over the years, we've grown to invest more in our relationship as a married couple in our attempts to make our marriage relationship stronger. And so that's huge for us. That's a focus for us.

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah. And it trickles down to our relationship with our kids. If we're, Drew and I are strong together in our relationship, that is, gives, I think, a sense of security for our kids as well.

 

Laura Dugger: I'd love to press in a little bit further on that. I think that sounds like such wise living. How did the two of you actually do this with practical or replicable tips? [00:11:04] 

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah. So when our kids were little, there is always a sense of survival at some level, right? So we established early on just like a solid bedtime. We had some time in the evening together. We also had a rule early on, like, if mom and dad's bedroom door is shut, you have to knock. Simple things like that.

 

As they got older, prioritizing just one-on-one time was easier as far as a date night. Now we did date nights when they were younger as well, but it obviously does become a little bit easier to have that as more routine as they get older and you're not having to hire a babysitter every week or trade services with another friend, which are all great ideas.

 

Drew: I'll say that, you know, Sara is a very strong, disciplined leader as well. [00:12:06] And so she's a checklist maker. She's very intentional. She's very disciplined. I remember her reading a number of books on parenting, you know? Because with four kids, you're bound to have at least one strong-willed kid, right? So just reading those books on how to best parent kids in different situations.

 

That was something I think that she took to heart because then she would share that with me too, and so we'd kind of work on that together. Because, I mean, it is tough. There are very tough times when you're dealing with kids that don't want to go to their church Sunday school class or they're being defiant at home and they keep on leaving their bed when they're getting up or it's nap time. After the 10th time, you're kind of like, "Oh, what am I going to do?"

 

Then now at the stage we're in now with teenagers, with Sara being goal-oriented, she really does a great job really having a goal to prepare dinner for at least two, three times a week. [00:13:07] And so our kids know that, you know, at such and such a times, 5:30, 6 o'clock, we're going to have a meal every Monday, every Tuesday. And so they're going to get hungry, they're going to be sick of spending their own money at a fast food joint or buying clothes or buying gas. They're going to get hungry. They're going to come home. What better place to eat, to have our kids eat than around our dinner table? 

 

There's been times when dinner tables have been tough, where kids kind of bicker and fight, but it's just getting easier. The older they get, the more mature they get. So there is hope. Trust the Lord that it will get better. When we have consistent love, I learned people will always respond to genuine love, unconditional love. And we're seeing that, I think, in our kids as well.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. That's such a hopeful reminder for anyone who's in the trenches and doing this, that those seeds eventually the Lord can make them grow and bloom. [00:14:12] Over the course of your marriage, how did the two of you choose to spend your leisure time?

 

Sara Anthony: I would say when we had been married for some time... I mean, I'm trying to think of... we had three kids, so our fourth wasn't quite here, and it fell on a year where three of my closest friends, their marriages were in distress, looked like headed towards divorce. That really shook me up.

 

I remember talking with one of them and she said, "Yeah, we just don't have anything in common." I do think that can easily creep in when you're in the throes of raising small kids. All of a sudden, I panicked. I remember coming home to Drew and be like, "We got to find a hobby. We have to find something that we enjoy doing together." 

 

I mean, it felt odd. We signed up for a 25K race. [00:15:13] We had this program that would... it started at like, you know, you can't run at all, and then it's supposed to get you to a 25K in six months or something like that. So we did that and we would connect after, but quickly realized that my legs are very short and Drew's are long, and running together wasn't really something that we could do very easily.

 

Drew: It gave us something to talk about.

 

Sara Anthony: But it did give us a connection that way.

 

Drew: You spend a lot of hours alone, you know, running.

 

Sara Anthony: Because we weren't able to really do that together. However, it's what we had in the moment. It didn't cost us really anything, and it was a connecting point. But I would say now having years more of marriage that what we found is finding an activity that both of you enjoy that you can do together is really where it's at. And that's where we would encourage people to find something that both of you enjoy. [00:16:17] 

 

In the last few years for us that has been sailing, we love to sail together. And then also hiking. We really enjoy hiking. We can do it at a similar pace, enjoying God's creation that way. It allows for great conversation. So that took trial and error and years of trying to figure that out.

 

Drew: And I would say a couple other things. We've experienced the grandness of the national parks. We've also experienced the local hikes. On occasion when we're on vacation or down south, we'll play pickleball, not just with each other, but with our kids too. 

 

And then also we flip a couple homes a year. I think Sara and I love taking a dilapidated property and dreaming it through something real cool at the end. So just doing that together I think is very rewarding. It gives us a challenge and gives us the opportunity to work at that challenge together and really make something beautiful and rewarding from that challenge. [00:17:20] 

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah. But I think as far as applying it, you know, hearing this and being like, wow, I'm not going to be flipping a house anytime soon with my spouse. But it's even been as simple as after dinner, you know, let's go and just walk up and down our street a few times and just decompress and reconnect.

 

That's not something that I would say like we're passionate about, walking up and down our road, but we are passionate about staying connected with each other. And that's an easy way to be able to do it. So sometimes it's just looking at your circumstances and saying, you know, what can we make happen with what we currently have going on?

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:18:02] <music>

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. 

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. 

 

While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.

 

I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. 

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, Winshapemarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

[00:19:19] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: You're kind of alluding to running this business together with flipping homes. So what have you learned about working well together?

 

Sara Anthony: I would say that's another thing that took us a while to kind of figure out and find our groove. We still mess up with that sometimes.

 

Drew: I tend to need to listen more, slow down a little more, talk to Sara more about something and her ideas, and then learn to respect those ideas and listen to those and take in the heart. I mean, it is a challenge. It's something that, yeah, we know that we're going to need to face this. But it's good. It's something good to do.

 

Sara Anthony: We both bring strengths to the table. Drew's really good at seeing the vision of what a house can be. When I initially walk into that type of house, it usually does have a lot of things wrong with it and it usually has a lot of junk in it. It's not uncommon for it to have a hole in the roof. Overwhelming. [00:20:27] 

 

So now that we've flipped a few houses together, trusting Drew that I know he's got the eye for this, I currently cannot see it, it's overwhelming to me.  But he knows what it can take. He can even quickly, which is an impressive skill, add up financially about what it would take to fix up that house. 

 

And then I love to come in with those final touches and finding ways to more cost-effectively bring in features that people would love, but at a fraction of the cost of what they might see it on like an Instagram or a Pinterest. So we make a good team that way. But of course, it would be silly for us to say that there's never conflict with any of that. I think anytime we work together, you know, that's just part of what comes with the territory. But then how we do that and making sure that we're communicating in a loving manner and those sort of things. [00:21:29] 

 

Drew: You know, it's dirty, it's messy. But when you take the last piece of trash out and you sweep the house, even before you get started on the construction, to accomplish that together as a team was incredibly rewarding. It makes your trip home all smiles.

 

Sara Anthony: It's allowed for some trust to be built as far as just knowing, "Okay, Drew's got an eye for this. Let's do another one another time."

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. I can definitely see how this would be a bonding experience as a couple. Another bonding experience is that the two of you have this unique opportunity to minister to couples on sailing trips. So will you now elaborate on what the Lord has taught you through sailing?

 

Drew: I think where it started was when we went on our first trip and it was a sail trip down in the British Virgin Islands where we were invited to go on a trip with three other couples. We had a skipper that kind of took care of the boat and its operation for us. [00:22:40] 

 

I remember waking up with Sara the next morning. We went out on the front of the boat there and did our devotions. There's something about waking up, being on water, and on a boat that even though it's a large boat, 52-foot catamaran, you're still just a few feet from the water. And waking up that early in the morning where the sun's starting to come over the mountains of the islands and the water, because it's still morning, it's just glassy. I mean, it's just the reflection of the sky, the reflection of the mountains, the reflection of other boats. And then looking over and you're seeing other islands five miles away. In looking at the surrounding, being able to appreciate the blessing that it is to be on this earth that God created for us to enjoy and for us to take care of. That's the first lesson sailing did for me personally. [00:23:39] 

 

Sara Anthony: Sure. It was a fresh perspective of God's creation. And we hadn't even left the harbor yet and we were already just in awe of seeing God's creation from the vantage point of being on the water. That was new for us. We just felt privileged that the Lord would see fit that we would have an opportunity to see His creation that way.

 

Drew: I think the second thing is, too... because I remember, Captain just talking about how sailing was one of the oldest methods of transportation. Basically, anyone in business, if they're going to trade a product, they're not going to put on the motorboat. They're not going to row across seas. They're going to put up the sails and use the wind, this miraculous feature of God's creation to really transport them from one piece of land to many, many, many miles away to another piece of foreign land. [00:24:46] 

 

And just being able to experience that same technology that's ancient to accomplish that. You know, because it's a huge boat, tens of thousands of pounds of weight that's just gliding across the water, being blown by the wind.

 

Sara Anthony: I was more drawn to just the beauty around me and the connection that I was feeling with the Lord and being in that element. So we both fell in love with boating for different reasons. And yet there were some connected loves as well. And I think for Drew, the captain was great about like, If you want to help out and come sit next to me and take over the helm for a while, go for it. And Drew totally took advantage of that. 

 

I mean, essentially, by the time the trip was over, he had been bitten pretty hard by the sailing bug and ended up working on getting his captain's license. The kids actually took some sailing lessons. [00:25:48] It rolled into something bigger than we could have ever imagined. So that when he ended up getting his captain's license and there was some shifting within the responsibilities of that sailing adventure program and there was a need there. Drew and I were able to step in and kind of help. We were then leading some of those. And then they were in need of some captains, and so Drew was volunteering captain time for that.

 

That's something that we still do. We love. In fact, it takes up a good chunk of our free time because we have not only seen how that experience strengthened our marriage. Now that we've done it several times with other couples, we see it impacting their marriage, and we're just like, We got to get as many people as we can on these trips. There's something about the sequestered setting, getting alone with your spouse-

 

Drew: Being intentional about your experience together. [00:26:56] 

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah. Because each night we do gather and talk about questions that make you kind of pause and give you time to dream together, start thinking towards the future. Because I think in the busyness of all the things that we've already discussed with kids and business and life, that we can get in a rut of that. 

 

When you take the time to get away, take the time to get quiet, and start to really ask, "God, what do you have for us? What does our future look like?" He's excited. He's excited to be able to, "Oh, I'm so glad you asked. Like, look at what I have. I just need you to take the next steps."

 

Drew: It's been amazing to see... you know, because I think in the last few years... in 2021, I think I did eight trips. So I met a lot of really cool couples. And just to see kind of what God has been doing in their lives and what God has in store for them in the future, too. [00:27:59] You see the potential there. So it's been awesome to see God kind of work and speak to their hearts and encourage them to that next step that He's kind of laid out for them.

 

Laura Dugger: It's such a unique thing to get to do together. But I love following that thread, or maybe "seeds" is a better example of how the Lord put on your hearts to spend leisure time intentionally together, to say no to some other things, not to be separate, but to pursue things that delighted you both. And now He's using that to bless so many married couples, Mark and myself included, through these sailing adventures. So I love hearing the backstory. 

 

Let's look back through a few phases of your marriage. Were there any traditions or habits you established when you were engaged or a newlywed couple that eventually set you up for success?

 

Sara Anthony: One that comes to mind would be church attendance. [00:29:00] I recently listened to a podcast and she was one of the pastors at a university. And she said, one of the things that she's seeing is the decline of families attending church together, and that oftentimes sports can get in the way of that. Essentially families are attending church together, maybe once a month. So then as a college student, that feels normal. And then when you get busy, then maybe it's like once every other month. 

 

That has been something for Drew and I that was example to us, but also we want to instill in our own kids, not for religious sake, but just out of, I want to take a pause within my week where I gather with other like-minded believers and we worship the God that we serve together.

 

Drew: I think there's a sense of accountability. There's this thing in the scripture that talks about not forsaking the assembly of the people. And I think there's something that happens when... and it doesn't matter. It doesn't even have to be our own church. [00:30:06] I mean, we're away a lot just because of our activities that take us to other cities. But it doesn't matter what denomination we end up going to. It doesn't matter, you know, who the pastor is, or their age, or what type of worship music that they play-

 

Sara Anthony: They're teaching the Bible, there's a connection. 

 

Drew: There is a huge connection. That word that's spoken isn't going to return void. It doesn't return void in my life. I've seen it even in my kids where they'll reference something that a pastor spoke. Like, for example, we went to our home church just yesterday, but we had a visitor pastor, he was a professor from a different state, and he had like four points on what worship really means. 

 

I don't know how the conversation got to this point, but we brought up the word worship, and I brought up the four points, or I was sharing them back and forth with my son, and he was able to insert some of those points. And so I know he was listening too. [00:31:06] But being able to be at a church service where they're preaching what's in the Bible, it's just a great blueprint for everything that we experience in life. And to be able to have that constant every weekend is precious.

 

Sara Anthony: I think to piggyback off that too, another priority for us is that our kids would always be involved in some sort of youth group. It can be something from within the school where they have a...

 

Drew: For me, it was Youth for Christ growing up, because I didn't have a youth group.

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah, just something where it's other kids where they're seeing it, not only hearing it from a parent, but another adult. Because oftentimes with our children, things that we've always said, and then another adult or mentor says it, and they're like, Oh, mom, you wouldn't believe what so-and-so said. [00:32:03] It's a painful moment when you have to bite your tongue and go, Yeah, that's what I've been telling you all along. But I would say, if we were going to highlight, there's obviously several traditions, but that has been one that we've just seen the payoff that's worth the investment.

 

Laura Dugger: What are some things that you did during the season of raising little children that you're now seeing the payoff as they're all becoming adults?

 

Sara Anthony: I think the hardest thing when your kids are little is being consistent. Just realizing that there's an element of none of us fully know what we're doing when it comes to parenting. We're doing the best we can.

 

I remember I was a full-grown adult when I realized that was the case for my parents. And so it allowed me to extend a ton more grace to them. But I think just that element of when they've done something for the fifth time, and you've already told them, and you're having to put on timeout or whatever it is, the disciplinary method, it's exhausting. [00:33:14] 

 

And knowing that in the long run, it really will produce a teenager, a young adult that you enjoy hanging out with. We really love having dinner around the table with our kids, and that includes our adult kids, that we have a relationship with that is enjoyable.

 

Drew: I think just inserting Christ into life. And by that, I mean, I just heard some parent talk about how they prayed with their children every morning. Different parents have different goals. Our pastor growing up, they had a family devotion every Monday night. 

 

We've talked to our kids about just that devotional time, playing Christian music, playing worship music, watching what TV shows, does a TV show glorify the Lord, just talking about standards and just inserting the Lord in His purpose and His plan that He has for us, I think, on a regular basis, on a consistent basis.  Just being that foundation for our children to kind of see and recognize. [00:34:27] 

 

And then putting them in circumstances like on a missions trip or outreaches where they can see the benefit of serving others and of loving others. We took our oldest two on a missions trip to Dominican Republic when they were, man, late elementary, early junior high age. And just to see them experience other kids that were older love doing that work for the Lord and just sharing their testimonies and seeing we have it great here in the US. God calls us to reach out to those that are less fortunate. And giving them the opportunity to share the love of Christ to others that they've never met. Things like that I think were crucial as well.

 

Sara Anthony: And we can tie up our answers into a neat little ball. But the reality is that as parents, you're tired and frustrated and there are going to be elements of you lose your cool. You yell or you react in a way where you're like, "That's not the parent I want to be." And then being humble enough to ask for forgiveness, set the example of what that looks like. Like, "Man, buddy, I lost it there. Will you forgive me?" So that they're also seeing that example of what humility looks like. [00:35:46] 

 

Drew: I remember a time when my son, who's a senior in high school now, but I remember a time when he was younger, I got very angry with him and I yelled at him. He was skating around, I think I was cleaning the garage. He had his skateboard out or something and just was doing kid things in there. 

 

And I remember just years and years and years that really ate at me how I responded to him. So there was a time when I just went in his room. This was just like this last year and we were just having a one-on-one time and I brought that up to him. Of course, he doesn't remember that. It was a long time ago. But I just asked for forgiveness. 

 

Because it is easy, I think, to kind of get caught up in the frustrations of life where it's not easy, it's hard, it's difficult and you lose your cool sometimes. And it's not that I just did that one thing and kind of approached him that and sought his forgiveness for that. [00:36:51] But I think as a father, and really as a mother too, because Sara does this too, we have accountability with other couples where we talk about different goals that we set and we keep each other accountable on a weekly basis for that when it comes to things of health, spiritual, financial, different aspects that we're trying to reach. And then we pray for each other and we keep each other accountable in that. And so we lean on others to do what we're called to do as parents and as husbands and as wives.

 

Laura Dugger: We just wanted to remind you to give us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. This helps more people discover The Savvy Sauce and ultimately hear the good news of Jesus. Thanks for partnering with us. We truly have the kindest and most helpful listeners. 

 

Well, Drew and Sara, from your own experience, do you have any encouragement for married couples who are also currently raising teenagers? [00:37:51] 

 

Sara Anthony: Yeah. I would say the first thing that comes to mind is pray that if they are messing up that you find out early and often. In other words, if they're doing something they shouldn't be, your prayer is, Lord, help me to find that out early before those roots start to go deep and they're harder to uproot. 

 

I always have said that I want my kids to mess up some while they're in high school under my roof before they go away to college, which is great to say. And then when they actually do it, you're like, "Oh my goodness. Now I've got to parent this. I've got to follow through with this boneheaded move that my kid just made." But it's, again, that consistency that comes in. It looks different because now maybe not as physically exhausting, but for sure emotionally and mentally exhausting at the teenage years. 

 

Our kids have made some mistakes that did happen under our roof as we requested from the Lord and yet with things that allow us to bring correction and teaching into their circumstances. [00:39:09] And there have been times that just the initial correction isn't enough. Just even in the last year for one of our kids, the element of, Okay, I've prayed about this. I'm still not seeing a breakthrough in that area. We've prayed together on this. Okay, what more can we do?"

 

Drew: Yeah. It was in our bedroom. 

 

Sara Anthony: And of course, involving them and you're feeling like you're blue in the face as far as repeating the same things and just not seeing improvement. So, for us, it was like, okay, we need to fast over this, deny ourselves some food like the Bible talks about so that the Lord knows, like, I'm serious about this. I really need you to come through. 

 

Drew: We've done everything we need to do. 

 

Sara Anthony: We've done all we know to do.

 

Drew: We need some supernatural support.

 

Sara Anthony: Exactly. The cool thing is though, is seeing the faithfulness of God in that. [00:40:12] And it wasn't overnight, but it was a testament to our son as we would talk to him, like, "This is something that we're seeing in your life. We know what that looks like in adult life, and we want to spare you from that." We not only are praying individually, we're praying as a couple, but we're also denying ourselves food once a week. We see this as a serious thing. So I don't know if that's exactly what you were looking for, but I would say that that's something that we've done, had to do out of necessity.

 

Laura Dugger: I think it's incredibly, not only practical, but like you said, inviting the supernatural power that we absolutely rely on because there's only so much we can do as parents and God's the one who supplies the power. How have you kept the romance alive through all these stages of marriage?

 

Drew: I think for us it's being intentional at getting away and being okay with leaving our kids. [00:41:16] We've been fortunate to have good families or good my mom and dad or brother and sister's house for them to stay at. But making sure that we have time to get away. Yeah, I think that's probably...

 

Sara Anthony: For sure. I think that, you know, even as we work with couples and seeing how difficult it is to leave our kids and somehow that thinking is, I'm not a good mom if I leave them. And the quote that I have always said to my kids is that I'm actually a better mom if I can get a week away with your dad once a year, or maybe it's not even a week, you know, working up to a week, but it's a weekend away.

 

Something to where it's just Drew and me and alone time and trusting that the people that we have put our children in their care, that they're going to do a good job and believing that God is going to care for our kids because he loves them more than we do, which is hard to imagine, and He loves us as a couple and wants to see us be able to stay connected. [00:42:25] 

 

When I talk to young moms, that is something that I try to emphasize. And I know that that can be a frustrating thing to hear when maybe finances are tight, but it is a manner of getting creative, even if it's selling something that you're not using anymore, just whatever it takes to be able to have that away time with your spouse I think is crucial and something worth fighting for.

 

Laura Dugger: I don't think we can hear that enough when we're in the throes of raising young kids. So as you're looking at married couples now with little children, is there even a certain age of their children that you recommend, okay, this is when to start implementing that goal?

 

Drew: Six months. No, on our sail trips, every once in a while, we'll have younger couples that go that have maybe a young child, a year-old baby, or two-year-old baby at home. It's their youngest child. [00:43:29] You know, it's tough to leave that child with a parent or someone that you trust.

 

Sara Anthony: I would hate to box in at a certain age to say what that would be. But at the same time, we had a younger couple. They have five children, and the youngest was a toddler. There was some hesitation. She had committed to coming on the trip, but then she was starting to second-guess it. And I just said, "You know, the people that you are leaving them with, do you trust them?" And she's like, "Yes." I said, "Then you should come. It's okay. You know you're leaving them in capable hands."

 

I would say that I'm seeing more people err on not getting away for the sake of the children. I would just say, what if it actually long-term helped benefit them because mom and dad are more connected? [00:44:36] 

 

Drew: And you know, when we get away, and we do what's right, whether it be with our spouse, or even as a family where... like we just did something awesome with our kids, where we had just three, four days of great family time, we went away. And we came back, and when we got back in the house, one of our kids just acted very unbecoming.

 

You know, we had just invested a bunch of time, we took our kids to New York City and had just an amazing time with the two of us and with our two children. And I remember kind of being surprised that those words came out of our child after just getting in the door. Because the reality is the enemy does not want to see us have a successful relationship with our spouse, relationship with our family. And so there's going to be things that happen, words that are said. [00:45:36] 

 

I think one thing that God is teaching me personally is to not take those things personally, but to understand that the enemy doesn't want to see things succeed. And so what's happening in that moment isn't a reflection of kind of what is going on in our family, but it's just him trying to poke at us, you know? To know that those things, those times are going to happen and to understand that that's a plot of the enemy and for us to love them and keep our hand on the wheel, keep on steering in the right direction.

 

It's easy to get it right back on course, you know, through hugs, through conversations, through consistency. God will utilize, I think, our maturity to keep things on that path.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that's so important to bring up because I agree with you, I think that the enemy is going to use so many creative tactics to keep this from happening because of the good. [00:46:36] It's another one of those situations where it feels like it requires faith because you're doing this, hoping that this will benefit the whole family, even if you and your spouse get away.

 

And I think for me personally, what the enemy will try and whisper, especially ahead of time, is, "This is going to harm your children. If you leave them, it's going to harm your relationship or your bond with them." And there's a fear then of, okay, are we going to regret this when they get older? We're not privy to that information yet because our oldest just turned eight this past December. But it seems like the Lord continues to comfort with the same words that you're saying, that this is not only not going to harm them, but this will actually bless them. And so it requires trust.

 

Drew: Yeah.

 

Sara Anthony: Absolutely. Yep. I agree with that.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, it just helps so much to hear you vocalize that. [00:47:36] That's so encouraging. How are the two of you maintaining a healthy relationship as you near the empty nest stage?

 

Sara Anthony: Drew and I are in separate goal groups. What I was realizing is that I don't want to look at Drew as our last kid leaves the house and go, "I don't know who you are." Because we have maintained some of that connection through our things we enjoy doing together, or the trips that we take once a year, just the two of us, or those types of things that keep us connected so that when that last child leaves in two years, Drew's not a stranger. Like he's someone that I know very well. And we almost can celebrate that next stage in looking forward to what that means for the two of us together.

 

Drew: Part of our goals that we've had and established in those week-to-week goal groups over the last year, one of them always has to do with your marriage. [00:48:41] We choose a goal in one of usually four to five categories. And one of those categories is always your marriage. So we'll have goals. And sometimes we know each other's goals, sometimes we don't. 

 

But the goals that we have proposed in our group on a week-to-week basis, I think have focused us towards investing in that relationship so that it continues to grow, it continues to get stronger. And you know what? It's kind of nice. We're enjoying time when our kids aren't there. Yeah, we love having our kids around, we love spending time with them, but we also love getting away and having it just be the two of us.

 

Laura Dugger: This sounds amazing, these goal groups. So I want to ask a few more questions about that. Is this something that the two of you came up with and then invited others in? Or is there a certain curriculum you're following? If somebody's listening and they want to follow in your footsteps. [00:49:41] 

 

Sara Anthony: Sure. So it's been so transformational for me. I'm going on year six. It was something a friend got an idea about, and she said, "Hey, do you want to do it?" And I said yes. There's been three of us that have been together for those six years. If you really wanted information on it, I do have a blog post that's simply saraanthony.com. After each blog post, I have where you can leave your email and it will send you a walkthrough of how to break this down. Basically, it's come from trial and error. And then after doing it for years-

 

Drew: As Sara's husband and watching her in this group... because I remember seeing the disciplines develop in her life when she woke up at a certain time every single morning and did her devotions. I'd see her get away with the kids on a regular basis where she would purposely go in the room and just talk with them. [00:50:47] That obviously was her family goal or her goal with her kids.

 

I remember one time where she just blessed a stranger with like a Starbucks gift card. And hearing about that and just being impressed at what she was able to accomplish on a day-to-day basis because of this accountability group. 

 

So it kind of inspired me to do the same thing because you see kind of... You know, discipline is something that's talked about all the time in the Bible and accountability and the court of three strands and all of this that God says, hey, you have brothers and sisters in the Lord that are there to support you and to cheer you on. Blessed is the man who falls and has someone to help get back up.

 

We all fall. We all struggle. Can you be purposeful in putting people in your life to help you during those times and key areas of who you are? [00:51:44] There's areas that I think God, you know, can easily get into your life and utilize brothers in the Lord, speaking for myself to support you. So it's been something that I developed after seeing Sara be so encouraged and grow in the Lord because of it. So I, myself, it's probably been a three-year process, and yeah, it's been incredibly supportive.

 

Laura Dugger: I love how contagious that wisdom is. So we will certainly link to your blog post in today's episode show notes. This time together has been so precious already. And a lot of times Savvy Sauce listeners will reach out for where to turn for some tips on marriage. So if listeners want to glean more marital wisdom from the two of you online, where would you direct them?

 

Sara Anthony: On my blog. I usually post a couple times a month. And that's just simply SaraAnthony.com. That's where I tend to stick those items of wisdom. [00:52:50] 

 

Drew: One of the things that we've done too is when we go on walks, occasionally we'll listen to a book on marriage because we don't have the answers. And it's just good to hear wisdom from different people that have different focuses on how they feel their marriage would be stronger. That's something that anyone can do just by searching Amazon or any other sort of audible application.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, that's a great idea. I'll put all the links in the show notes, but also I'll put a link. We have all of our marriage-related podcast episodes and then some marriage-recommended resources. So I'll put all of those links in. So if you want to listen to something on a walk, you can do that on a commute as well. And it's an easy list right there. 

 

But Drew and Sara, you know we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for the two of you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:53:54] 

 

Sara Anthony: I would say, for me, the thing that has revolutionized my life the most has been morning quiet time. I call it my morning routine, but it's the time that I spend with the Lord where I'm praying, studying. When I first started in a goal group, I knew that that was one of the priorities. Like I've tried and I failed and I just want to make this a habit. 

 

I think the cool thing that happens, that as you stay consistent with it... and again, like we talked about earlier, the enemy knows the power of connection with Jesus. So he will try to trip you up, discourage you, you know, have your kids wake up earlier than they should have, all those things. But if we can just stay consistent with that, the power that comes from that, it has truly changed my life. [00:54:57] 

 

I've seen it impact my friends, my kids. It changes you. Time with God changes you. You can live off one encounter from the Lord, but He desires to meet with us all the time. And so if we can tap into that, oh my goodness, it's powerful.

 

I always tell people, even if you're just committing, getting really good at 10 minutes or five minutes, whatever it is, get really good at that. And then what naturally happens is that you fall in love with Jesus during that time and five, ten minutes isn't enough. That would be my savvy sauce advice — spending time with Jesus, making that a habit.

 

Drew: For me, I would say the importance of hiding the word in your heart. I remember when I was probably, I don't know, 20 years old, my job was, I was a landscaper at our local church and a buddy of mine had been a successful youth pastor, and he was looking to hire someone to be a junior high pastor. [00:56:03] 

 

So he took me out to breakfast one morning and just asked me, "Drew, what verse are you meditating on? What is the Lord speaking to your heart?" And I remember being kind of stunned. I didn't really know what that answer was. I mean, I grew up in the church and I knew if he started saying a popular verse, I probably could help finish it. But there wasn't a verse that I had been meditating on.

 

In the process of these goal groups, one of the things that I've started to do was not only memorizing certain verses, but every morning repeating that verse before I start my quiet time. Well, currently there's three verses that I'm repeating before every devotional time. Ephesians 4:29, which talks about not letting an unwholesome talk come out of your mouth. Proverbs 3:5-6, trust the Lord with all your heart, lean on your own understanding that verse. And then the last one, Psalm 16:11, which is you make known to me the path of life. You fill me with joy in your presence. And so just speaking those verses in my life every morning sets me on the path for that day. [00:57:19] 

 

Laura Dugger: Aw, I love all of that. I would just say three words come to mind to sum up this conversation. And those are faith, hope, and love. Because I think of faith in your choices that the two of you have modeled in your life decisions. There's hope that you've passed on to each of us to stay the course in parenting and continue seeking God. And then your love for one another and your kids and others just exude out of you. 

 

It's clear that the two of you are so humble as you approach this topic of marriage, and I appreciate all the stories you shared and your real-life examples. I just want to encourage you as well, that knowing your oldest daughter, Alexa, shows me that you actually live out what you talk about. And the way that she spoke of the two of you, not only for your love for one another but her security in the family and her security and her bond and relationship with the two of you. [00:58:15] 

 

I remember Mark and I left that conversation like, wow, we want to pick their brain and see what all they're doing, because it was clear that you're leaving an impactful legacy for your children. So I'm leaving this conversation encouraged and inspired. So thank you for being my guest today.

 

Drew: Well, thanks for having us. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:59:14] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [01:00:14] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [01:01:16] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

171. Tiny Habits for Enormous Change with Juni Felix

 

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18 (ESV)

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you elaborate on your childhood and your journey through trauma and recovery?

2. What are tiny habits and why are they so powerful?

3. Will you now explain the systematic formula for human behavior that you refer to from Dr. B. J. Fogg?

    

Juni Felix is a member of New York Times–bestselling author Dr. B. J. Fogg’s Stanford Behavior Design Lab Teaching Team, a C. S. Lewis Institute Fellow, a speaker, and a podcast and radio host. As a Tiny Habits® coach who has long used the method to help others transform lives and relationships with God, Juni has gone on to be a leader in the church, and through her speaking, broadcasting, and podcasting ministries, an encourager to people around the world.

 

 

Highly awarded for volunteer and community service, she’s a technologist specializing in Behavior Design, assisting innovators from varied industries in the creation of collaborative teams and community-minded products, systems, and services to make the world a better place. As a presenting author at the thirteenth annual Persuasive Technology Conference, she shared ideas for caring for, feeling, and understanding cities of the future.

 

 

She loves to travel the world collecting stores of hope—and also hiking and playing hours of video games. Her family motto is “Always pray, always play, and never give up!” You can follow her ongoing global adventures at JuniFelix.com.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

You are Worth The Work

Forgiving What You Can't Forget

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

170. Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Matthew 6:22 (NIV) "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light."

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. When you look at brain science research, what have you learned about how technology rewires our brains?

2. What is most helpful in restoring and repairing our brains and our relationships?

3. As it relates to the future, where do you think technology is headed and what should be on our radar?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd is the Director of the Flourish Center for Wellbeing in Knoxville, TN, and as the Founder and President of Flourish Wellbeing University. She has a Master's Degree specializing in Christian Counseling, and a Doctorate in Leadership. She is also an ICF (PCC) Professional Certified Coach, a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach, and ICF Mentor Coach. She is the co-author with her father Dr. Archibald Hart of "The Digital Invasion: How Technology is Shaping You and Your Relationships". She lives with her husband of 37 years in beautiful Knoxville, TN we they one daughter, two sons, one son-in-law, one daughter-in-law, two beautiful grand daughters and an adorable grand-son. She is passionate about coaching people to flourish and thrive in their: Spiritual Emotional, Mental, Physical, Relational, and Vocational wellbeing. Sylvia is most restored and experiences God when she is close to water, walks in nature, creates beauty and has deep coaching conversations.

 

Flourish Center for Well-Being

Email Dr. Frejd at DrSylvia@FlourishCenterforWellbeing.com

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Digital Invasion by Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

Thrilled to Death by Dr. Archibald Hart

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

[00:00:18] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 1,700 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd is my guest today. She has advanced degrees in Christian counseling and leadership, and she's passionate about coaching people to flourish and thrive in all aspects of well-being. Today we're going to zero in on digital wellbeing as we talk about a book she co-authored with her late partner, Dr. Archibald Hart, titled The Digital Invasion: How Technology is Shaping You and Your Relationships. Listen in as we discuss technology's impact on our brains and our relationships. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sylvia.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, thanks, Laura, for having me today on your podcast. It's a joy to get to talk with you.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:01:26] Well, I'm excited just to hear a little bit more about your journey that led you to where you are today.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, absolutely. Well, I was actually born and raised in South Africa. My family moved to Los Angeles when I was ten for my dad, Dr. Archibald Hart, to be the dean at Fuller Seminary. He was actually one of the founders of Christian Psychology. And my mom actually was the chaplain to student wives for many years there at Fuller.

 

I did just want to say at the outset that both my parents died last summer, actually two and a half weeks apart. But they had a huge impact on my life. I just count it as a privilege to carry on their legacy. It was actually an honor to coauthor my book, The Digital Invasion, with my dad a few years ago. It was actually my first book, it was his last book. He was 83 when he wrote it, which I think is so encouraging for all of us that it's never too late or you're never too old.

 

But it was through researching that topic of this digital invasion that I really developed my passion to help families to thrive in their real life and relationships. It was a very personal journey for myself as I had my own wake up call to my son's video gaming addiction. So it's been a very personal journey to help my own family to carry on what my dad said was probably his most important work, and it was his final kiss, so to speak, to the church before he left this earth. So I'm very privileged and really humbled to do this work.

 

So now I founded the Flourish Wellbeing University, where I'm just teaching people how to flourish in their lives. I do grief and loss intensives. I'm very passionate about that topic. I've been married for 37 years and I have three children and I'm a nana to three beautiful grandchildren. I live with that every day, watching their exposure to the digital world and how hard it is to try to protect them from all that's out there and really helping my children parent my grandkids in a healthy use of technology.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:03:41] Well, you are an incredible woman. And I do just want to acknowledge the loss of both your parents so close together. I just want to say I'm profoundly thankful for all of your family. You've made such an impact in God's kingdom here on earth, and especially through Christian Psychology. So I do want to say I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Thank you, Laura. I appreciate that. My parents were 87 and 89 and they lived a full life and they finished well. And I hope that we all are encouraged to do the same thing.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:04:17] Yes. Well, like you said, you have researched so much about our digital lives. I just want to start here. What is your theology of technology?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: My father and I really spent a lot of time coming up with what is a good theology of technology. You don't hear a lot of this necessarily from the pulpit. So we would like to give that to people, what we believe. I have a long version in my book, but basically the simple version is just that God created us in His image to be relational beings, to be in relationship with Him, to be in relationship with ourselves, in relationship with others.

 

We believe that this technology is a gift. It's an amazing gift, and that we are to steward it well and that we're not to become slaves to it. But it's a tool ultimately to be used for God's glory. So that's kind of, in a nutshell, just our theology of technology.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:05:19] Let's focus on the positives first. How do you think we can use technology to further the kingdom of God?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Laura, there are so many positive uses. And we really emphasized that when we wrote the book and when we speak on this topic, that technology is... and I've heard it said it's like a brick, right? You can use a brick to build a cathedral or you can use a brick to destroy something. So it can be used... I think of going to all the world to preach the gospel and how today, through technology, we can share the gospel.

 

I wish that I would do this more. And I’d encourage our listeners to think about, you know, how can we really share scriptures? I like to say post positive God stories, right, all the little ways and large ways that God's working in our lives. So I think there's so many positive ways we can use it.

 

We also can use it within our families to... you know, we have in our family a group text. I try to send scriptures from time to time or prayer requests or just ways to connect in our daily lives. So I think it really starts with just really praying about how God wants us to use our technology. We pray about so many things, who we should marry, where we live. This is something that our technology is just with us all the time. And we need to really be in prayer about, how is this a tool to ultimately bring God glory?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:06:51] I love how you bring this up, because even this week I felt the Lord speaking to me about The Savvy Sauce podcast and revealing that this is partly how He's invited me to do my part in the great commission. That even now, as I'm getting to sit and be discipled by you, Sylvia, my prayer is that this podcast and all of our episodes can also be discipling others and going out to all the nations. So technology can have a profound impact for the kingdom.

 

And I know sometimes people grow tired of hearing the negatives, but they're potentially so dangerous that I think it bears repeating. So what would you say are some warnings that you want to share as it relates to technology?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, absolutely. I think that listeners who are listening in today to really do some self-evaluation about, are they overusing or are they addicted to their technology. So just some of the warning signs are what happens if you can't find your phone? Do you get really anxious? Are you waking up during the night at all hours of the night to check your phone?

 

And this is a big one. Do you look at your phone when someone's talking to you? Almost like you can't stop it, you can't help yourself because you're not in control; your device is in control. And then another big one and I saw this again was a warning sign with my son was that he used to love to play the drums, he used to love to play soccer, and he didn't want to do those real-life things anymore because the things that he was doing in his virtual life were just way more stimulating. And we'll get into more of that, you know, the brain and what's happening there.

 

And then a big one is just ask your family. They'll tell you, right? Mom, you're on the phone too much. Dad, get off your devices. So those are some of the warning signs. And the one I'm the most concerned about, Laura, is just this incredible increase in anxiety and depression, especially with our younger generation. So those are just some of the things we have to look out for.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:08:59] And what do you believe are some of the antidotes that are available? If we are answering some of those questions and maybe we're convicted right now, what are some practical ways to offer hope?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Absolutely. One of the themes that I have with flourish in real life and relationships is to balance it. Technology's not going away. The children today in schools are absolutely immersed in technology. They have their tablets. Their work is all on screens for the most part. So how do we balance that out with real life?

 

One of the things I did with my son was to find things that he enjoyed. He found he loved golf. So what are those things in real life that you can enjoy that can pull you out of the virtual life so that the virtual life isn't so desirable? Even with friends, right? We spend a lot of time on social media because we desire and God's created us to have connections. So just trying to balance that out with what could I be doing right now in real life? Is there something that would be a better use of my time? Calling a friend, FaceTiming with a friend. Getting out in nature.

 

Another really important antidote is to just try to practice good emotional intelligence. You know, the reason we have so much anxiety and depression is because we're not processing our emotions. So instead of have a painful feeling, where's my phone, to just be able to sit with that and say, what is this emotion trying to tell me right now? How can I process it and work with it?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:10:30] And I just want to add a little bit more to that as well, because your book I originally read when I first became a parent. And then after we had our four daughters, I wanted to revisit it in a different phase. So a few things that I've gathered. You talked about the practical application of journaling and what an impact that has on us. And then you also talk about different ways that we can recover a healthy pleasure center.

 

Five of those ways to restore the pleasure center, I'll just name them briefly, and people will have to read the book to find out more. But it's live a connected life, aim for sovereign joy, receive God's peace, practice gratitude, and cultivate hope and resilience. So would you want to elaborate on any of those thoughts?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. It's just amazing how God has made our brains to help us to flourish. We see the damage that's been done in our brain system. And if we just really go with the things that God's given us, being able to journal, like you said, is huge. It takes so much of that anxiety and fear. The currency of Satan today is fear and anxiety. And being able to journal and pour our hearts out to God and take that time to put that down on paper is huge.

 

And being able to process those emotions so that I don't keep being distracted. Because that's what's really happening in our overuse of technology is our brains are being rewired for distraction. So being able to have that time to be still, to focus. If you're a parent out there today, that's one of the best things you could do for your children is just to get them to be still and to focus because, you know, the focused life is going to be the productive life. So, yes, I think all of those things to restore our tranquility system and our pleasure system are just huge.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:12:30] A follow-up question on that then. When you think of focus, would you consider that, like if they're doing an art project or something not even related to homework, if they're focused on play as they're younger, is that all intertwined?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, absolutely. And I think that there's going to be enough time where they do have to be on technology beyond screen time. But the brain just thrives, Laura, in free time and playtime, and honestly, in boredom. And that seems like such a strange thing to talk about in this day and age. But you know, I shared I was born and raised in South Africa, and I had no screens at all. I didn't see television till I was almost a teenager. So I was incredibly bored.

 

And my dad would talk about this all the time, and how bored he was as a child in the 30s. And our brains become so creative when we're bored. So having that playtime, that fun time, that time to even just have to make up games, right, for our children is so important. So when kids say to the parents, “I'm bored.” “Good. That's great. You're bored.”

 

[00:13:44] <Music>

 

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[00:15:40] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: What have you learned about how technology rewires our brains?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: So the main part to that is our overuse of technology rewires our brains through distraction. And the distracted brain becomes the addicted brain. So it's been called digital cocaine because our technology gives us this hit of dopamine in our pleasure center.

 

So we're just overusing our pleasure centers. The basis to that we're developing what Dr. Caroline Leaf calls the milkshake brain, where all of the multitasking—and we don't have time for all that—but multitasking has been proven to be a myth. We don't multitask, we multisequence. But we're getting this milkshake brain, right? I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere. So this is impacting these parts of our brain, the pleasure system in our brain. We're overloading it.

 

And then our learning system in the brain. A lot of that comes from the lack of sleep because our overuse of screens robs us of our sleep. And what we've learned can't go into our hypothalamus, into our long-term memory. It's impacting our tranquility system. It's amazing how God has made us with this brain that we have our own natural tranquility system.

 

So now we're having to use so much medication without anxiety and depression. But if we're able to really harness this natural hormone system God's given us, so we don't want to call disrupt the tranquility system, you know, a lot of us wouldn't need to be even on the medication. And then we're seeing the overuse of a technology impact our spiritual system, you know, that ability to experience God in what we talked about in Chapter 10 of our book, our God Space, that place in our brain where we experience God.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:17:28] Well, let's go a little bit further with some of those into the solutions. So if technology is rewiring our brains and harming our pleasure center, what is a healthy solution to restore that?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Right. You know, it starts with really respecting your brain's limitations. I think as humans, we don't want to hear that, you know, that our brains are limited. We can't multitask. We can't be in two conversations at the same time. We need to teach our kids today, you know, listening to your children. And start with ourselves, you know, to single task.

 

And I try to do this, you know, when I'm like, "Okay, I want to do this, I want to do that." I really have to say, Stop, focus, you know, just do one thing, do that well, and then move on to the next. Because what happens if I'm doing one thing, and then I stopped to do something else, you know, the research says it takes us 10 minutes to refocus on what I started doing. So that is really huge. Just try the single-tasking.

 

Then a big piece is sleep. My dad used to talk about eight to nine hours of sleep a night. Our brain goes into recovery mode during our sleep time. And our brain needs a lot of sleep. And then it needs to balance out with screen-free time each day. I know it's gonna be different for each family what that looks like. But just even as you're listening today, think about where can I have time that I just am away from screens? Whether that's out in nature. You know, research is showing it's so healing time spent in nature. Where else can you have some screen-free time in your home?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:19:05] I'm assuming all of this impacts our tranquility system you were talking about as well. Are there any other tangible solutions that we can do to help aid this process of healing as well?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Right. The main part of our tranquility system is when we're, like I was saying, with the digital cocaine, it keeps our stress levels high because the cortisol is up because I'm waiting for that next text or I'm waiting for that next post. So our stress hormones are being disrupted and they're staying so high. So that's, again, why we're seeing stress leads to anxiety, anxiety leads us to depression.

 

So when we can do things too lower that stress hormone. And there's a lot of great ways to do that. There's an app out there called Calm. You know, what can you do to just, whether it's through breathing, whether it's through just putting the phone down, and like I said, getting out in nature to try and lower that stress? Because that is really one of the main reasons why our overuse of technology is so damaging to our brains and our bodies is that high level of stress.

 

So whether that's through breathing, whether it's through exercise, what can you do to be very aware of your stress hormones response? And tuning into your body? What is your body experiencing right now? How can you calm that?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:20:26] A lot of this is covered on pages 62 to 73 of your book, if somebody's following along or wants to research more. But one of my takeaways from that section was just how amazing it was that breaks and sleep and face-to-face connection were repeated in the repair systems, and just how powerful those are. And the one other amazing takeaway just how God designed us is that practicing spiritual disciplines actually heals our brain. So would you want to say anything else about healing the spiritual system of our brain?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, sure. You know, that was something as we were writing the book that, you know, you read all the bad news, right? And it was like, Well, what is the solution? What can help us? So it was really through Dr. Thompson's work, that neuro theology that he was talking about, how silence and solitude really helps to heal our brains.

 

So we really made this connection that if our overuse of technology is rewiring our brain for distraction, then it was really through the spiritual discipline of silence and solitude that our brains are able to heal. So that was a huge aha for us in reading that. So to just think about how are you balancing that each day. Are you getting time to be... you know, the Bible says in Psalm 46:10, "Be still and know that I'm God." He doesn't say, run around and do 10 things and you'll know I'm God.

 

Our brain, again, thrives in stillness and quiet. And if you look around your world today, we get so little of it. So the antidote really is right there for us. It's just going to take some self-management and some discipline right, to have that and to help your children to be still and not to always be entertained. My dad wrote the book, Thrilled to Death, and it was all about we're entertaining ourselves to death, where our children are being entertained to death. That really is our antidote.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:22:30] That is another profound book that made such an impact. I would highly recommend that one as well. But one more part that you talk about is the attachment system. I think of this, in general, is relationships, because attachment is such a large part. So could you explain attachment a little bit further, and then share how technology is impacting our relationships?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Absolutely. This is such an important piece for us to grasp. God, again, He's created us to be in relationship, to be attached to Him, to have attachments with others. So to have healthy attachments, with our spouse, with our children, with friends, we need to feel safe, we need to feel seen, and we need to feel heard. That's really what is at the core of attachment theory or having attachment.

 

So how our technology robs us of that is that when we're constantly looking down at screens, when we're constantly distracted with our phones, those that we love are not going to feel seen and heard, right? I like to say, your children and your loved ones, they need your eyeballs. And that's really what we're fighting for.

 

I heard one tech creator say, you know, what we really want is your eyeballs, right? They're fighting to make these devices addicted to get our eyeballs. So that's what our loved ones need. To be present to those people right in front of us, not to have... it's actually a term called absent presence. And that's when you're in the same room with someone but you're actually with somebody else on a screen.

 

I really believe it's the greatest gift that we can give those that we love, the gift of our presence. I know as a Nana to three little grandchildren, that's one gift that I've promised them, you know, to form those healthy attachments with them is that they have the gift of my presence. And I'm very aware when I'm with them to put my phone down and to turn the TV off and to really give them that.

 

I think that as far as our attachment to God, that's what He wants us to be is to be attached to Him. But we have many... what I call false attachments. Those give us pleasure, right? They can be online shopping, social media, just surfing websites that can feel like, you know, they give us some kind of pleasure. But they're really false attachments.

 

We need to really work on... we're created for union with the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, right? The union. God wants us to keep union with Him, and then to be attached to those that we love. And I've heard stories and this has happened to me too, so not judging here. But you know, stories of kids saying, "I kicked the ball for the very first time, I looked up in the stands, and my dad was looking down at his phone. He missed it." That is going to impact how kids feel seen and feel heard and feel valued.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:25:25] Wow, that is so powerful, and so memorable, that our loved ones need our eyeballs. It makes me think of Matthew 6:22 that says, the eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. So that is so good and memorable. Thank you. They need our eyeballs. And with attachment that really begins with the parent-child relationship, right, and sets that child on a different trajectory of how they are likely going to attach to others, including the Lord?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. You know, as I do work as a counselor and as a coach, as people come in, and sit with me, that is absolutely. If a parent was distant and aloof, that's how they see God. And when kids look at us, you know, we are the face of God to our children. And it's very sobering. And it's almost overwhelming.

 

I would say to my kids all the time, you know, I'm not perfect, I'm not going to reflect Jesus perfectly to you. But we need to really see that. The pleasure that we get from being on our devices sometimes is just... we need to be honest with ourselves, right? That it's overwhelming and it's a big hole.

 

But we have this little time, this little amount of time to be with our kids. Again, just getting back to that discipline of trying to get off the phone, trying to be there for them, because it will impact that child's life, how they see God, how they do relationships, whether they have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment, because there's different attachment styles. So that's just one little step you could take is just be there, be available, look in their eyes, and make them feel seen, and valued, and heard.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:27:13] I think that's such a balanced response. You're right, we cannot be perfect to our children, we will not be Jesus to them. And yet, there is a humbling reality and responsibility that we have. But I also love how you said, as a Nana, you're wanting to attach to your grandchildren. And it makes me think there are so many key players that also pour into our children to have that secure attachment.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Definitely. You hear stories all the time of teachers, of Sunday school teachers and neighbors and grandparents who have a huge, huge impact. So I encourage anyone that's in my stage of life to grandparents to... you know, sometimes we're even more available. Maybe because we're older and we learned, hopefully, a few things, maybe a little bit wiser. But just to think about how you can help those in your life to form healthy attachments.

 

[00:28:13] <Music>

 

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[00:29:03] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Overall, what would you say is the most helpful piece in restoring and repairing our brains and our relationships?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: That's a really good question. I think for me, having some kind of a plan, you know, some steps to take. I do have a digital wellness plan that my dad and I came up with. And I think if I can share some of those just practical ways.

 

I think it starts by just first of all trying to limit your exposure. Again, technology's not going away. We've seen in the last year and a half where you've been immersed way more than we were before. But just to be selective. Be a discriminant user.

 

One of the things I did was I removed my newsfeed from my phone. And that's just been really freeing to not just feel constantly a slave to the ping and the ding of what's happening. So just think of ways that you can even just limit some of your exposure for your own life, with your children.

 

And then try to create some space where technology doesn't go. And that may just be in small ways. Like sacred space in the morning where no phones are. Maybe just even one of the things I did notice sounds so small, but the baby steps is just when I go to the bathroom. You know, don't take your phone with you. Just have a place where your phone doesn't have to go everywhere with you.

 

And then to face your feelings. To really ask, why am I spending so much time in technology? What are those painful feelings I'm trying to self-soothe or to medicate? And then keep a journal of those feelings as we talked about before. And then finding beauty to balance the brokenness. I just love that. You know, there's so much brokenness in even our world, in that we get thrown at us through the news feeds and through social media.

 

And what is that beauty? You know, whether that's listening to encouraging podcasts, like hopefully, you're doing today, beautiful music, getting out in nature. Really God has given us so much beauty to balance the brokenness that's out there.

 

And then one that I think is really, really important. That is to go deep in this shallow world. I loved Mr. Rogers, he said, in a world that's fast and shallow, we need slow and deep. I think that is really, so much the antidote, and the answer to all of this is, how do we go slow and how do we go deep in a world that is so fast and shallow?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:31:38] Oh, wow, that is good. And it ties in. I'm going to quote you from page 156, where you write, "Our digital life serves us best when it is balanced by its opposite, namely, our unplugged life." That just makes me think when we are unplugged, that often will lead to conversations and conversations make up relationships.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. I like to call myself the conversation doctor, because that's really what we're trying to reclaim in all of this is conversations. Again, conversations with God, conversations with ourselves, conversations with others, and especially, with our loved ones. It's through conversations that we learn how to be a human being, and it's how we get to know God.

 

So I like to say that in your home, there should be places that are digital-free zones where conversation can flow freely. And that's your kitchen, your dining room, and your car. If you can make all those places digital-free so you can really have conversations. That's how children develop emotional intelligence. Right? It's through conversations.

 

"So, really, how was school today?" "Oh, well, Sammy was mean to me." "Oh, how did that make you feel? What do you think's going on with Sammy?" As we have those conversations, that's how our children are learning about life. My mother used to say, In dialogue, our thoughts are clarified. We can say what we're feeling, we can have that back and forth dialogue. So trying to reclaim conversation is a big piece of what I'm doing.

 

Again, another baby step for you as a family, just the dining room table and just say, we're gonna have a conversation. And I know how it goes. I don't want to talk. How are you doing? Fine. I'm fine, Mom. I'm fine. But that's really what our kids need, and what our loved ones need is conversations.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:33:34] Yes to that. Absolutely. Healthy boundaries can provide so much freedom in our lives in various areas. But when we specifically look at digital limits that eventually can lead to greater freedom, what are some of the most beneficial boundaries you recommend we establish for ourselves and for our children?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Sure. I'll just start through the age range. You know, for a toddler, they're saying too, this is the experts saying, to limit exposure to really no more than one hour a day of screen time, trying to make that educational programming. Sit with your child, interact with them, so they don't just zone out for an hour. To say, "Oh, what was happening with Daniel the tiger?" "He looks sad." "What do you think about that? Do you get sad?" So if you can have that interaction, it can just really be a lot more beneficial.

 

Then for children, they're saying no more than two hours of screen time. What I like to say is it's very hard to be legalistic about that. Set the timer and you know, how much was it? Was three minutes over or three minutes under. But to ask yourself this question: is there something my child should be doing that the screen time is preventing?

 

I really liked that. Because you know, maybe they should be napping, maybe they should be playing, having playtime with a friend. Maybe they should be outside. So that's really how we balance our real life and our virtual life is, is there something that this is preventing?

 

And then for teenagers, and I know this is controversial, but you know, to try not give a smartphone until the age of 13. That is what all the tech experts say, including Gates and Steve Jobs did not let their children have phones. So I figure if they created them, they must know something that we don't. Those are really good boundaries. Make sure you have your kids' passwords, that they sign a digital pledge, they know what's expected of them. No cell phones in the bedrooms. That's when most destructive behavior happens in middle of the night with texting, with kids sexting.

 

Have a charging station that's out, you know, where everyone can charge their phone, including parents. Because this is just not about digital wellness for kids, we need to be modeling this.

 

Then for us adults, try not to check your phone while you're getting ready for bed. Have about an hour of screen-free time to really get some good sleep. Don't check your phone first thing when you get up. I'd like to say let God get your first view, you know, talk to Him, get the Scripture before you get all the downloads from the day before.

 

And the most important part to all of this, I think as parents, as Christians, is just try to model digital wellness yourself saying more is caught than taught. If you have a good control, and you're modeling good digital habits, those will be caught.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:36:20] I want to go even deeper into the teenagers and technology because we've had some families reach out and just say, "This is a new place for us. We have given our children smartphones because we want to teach them while they're in our home how to steward this well. So do you have any recommendations for a balanced approach of wise ways that parents can parent their teens through this season of getting their smartphone and interacting with technology more?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, absolutely. Well, Laura, you know, I spent four years working at a university and I would work with students on their digital wellness. So I want to say to parents of teenagers, yes, it's very wise to let them have access to their phones. I even say that their senior year, maybe even let them have their phone in the room. Because the point is they go off to college, and then suddenly, it's total freedom. So they need to sort of be released to know how to do that.

 

Most important thing is really to have conversations. I had a lot of college students say to me, "My parents didn't teach me how to use my digital devices." Well, I have many kids say that's how they got into internet pornography. "My parents didn't talk about sex, so I was curious. And I just started googling."

 

I had many kids tell me, young people tell me that they wanted to talk with their parents, but when they go into the rooms, their parents were all distracted on their devices. So they would just go back to the room and text with friends. So I think it's really important in those high school years that you're available. Again, the eyeball analogy: Be there when your child wants to talk, especially at nighttime. That's when kids' spirits seem to really be open. And that's when we're the most tired, and we don't want to talk. Be available to them to have those conversations and say, If you have any questions, if you come to me, there's no subject that's off limits. So you're available for them.

 

And then having the passwords and letting them know there is going to be some accountability. You know, what you do post or what you put out there, you know, you are going to have accountability, not in a mean way or strict way, but in a "I want to help you. And I want to help you to thrive when you do go off to college, and you do launch from this home".

 

So the relationship is everything. It's out of the strength of our attachment and our relationship that we create the rules and the boundaries. So really work on the relationship. Even after listening to this podcast, you know, say this is what I learned today, and I want to help you to not have a distracted brain. I want to help you to have some good boundaries with your digital use. I think that's really the answer.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:38:56] I think my takeaway when I have a quick thought, when interacting with our kids, I'm going to try and remember eyeballs in conversation, to prioritize those in the relationship. I want to quote you again on page 31, where you and your dad write, "Our findings confirmed our worst fear. Digital engagement seems to be breaking down their sense of unity as a family." So, Sylvia, how can we redeem what technology has stolen from our family?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, getting back to the purpose of our technology, you know, technology was created to make our lives easier and more productive. That's really what it's about. It's funny how it ends up making our lives harder and less productive. But if we get back to the intended design and use of that and to think putting technology in its place in your home, where does it belong?

 

And again, it's going to be different for each family. I've talked with families who have very little screen very few screens and tech families and have a lot. So starting by just praying. What is our family mission statement? How are we going to use technology in this home? And how do we want to use it in a way that's redemptive.

 

So again, using it, to share family devotionals, to share scriptures, to encourage your kids to post positive things about their classmates. I had people tell me that college recruiters that they look to see who are the kids that are making positive comments about fellow students are way to go, you hit a home run, a great job. So just being a really positive force.

 

And then again, having as many face-to-face conversations as a family as you can, and breaking up that conversation deficit. You know, FaceTiming with relatives. I live with my grandchildren now at the same time, but I did it for a while, and I loved being able to FaceTime. So being able to connect them with other family members, maybe they don't get to see all the time.

 

And then really sitting down and praying as a family. How do you think God wants us to use this technology? And then coming up with your own family digital wellness plan. It is amazing when you let your kids take ownership of it. They may even be a little stricter than you thought, you know. But be ready that when they say, "Mom, you're on the phone too much," or "Dad, you're on your devices too much" to not be defensive, and "no, I'm not." But to be able to say, "You know, you're right, and we can do this together."

 

So the beauty of this is I think it can be very redemptive in bringing families closer together and coming together to come up with a digital wellness plan.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:41:32] And I'm wondering, Sylvia, if that's part of your story. So just to turn it a little bit more personal now, would you be open to sharing a little bit more of your family's journey through your son's struggle with video gaming addiction?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. It really started with sitting down with him and with my other two children as well, and just really sharing how much I loved him and how much I was his biggest fan, biggest supporter, and how I wanted to see her thrive in his real life. Then I started sharing education. So it wasn't just, you know, This is what I think or feel. This is what the research is telling us. And really stepping them through the reality of what... you know, I shared with him what was happening to his brain and he's very, very smart.

 

If you have children today that are addicted to video gaming, to realize that the high-risk is a very intelligent child who's a little more introverted. And that's who he was. So really sharing that, you know, that you are more introverted. And finding, you know, what are things you enjoy in real life? AAnd encouraging him in that and giving him opportunities to join the golf team, to find ways to connect with other people. So I actually taught him a lot of emotional intelligence, because my other two are very high in emotional intelligence. He's higher in IQ.

 

So really just sharing that and keeping it about the heart relationship of how much I love him, and I want to see him thrive. And entering his world. You know, I would sit and watch him play the game and say, "What is about this that you love?" And trying to understand rather than just "stop that. That's not good for you." You know, "Help me understand why do you enjoy this? And what is it that you can do in real life that would give you the same sense of mastery, and accomplishment?"

 

Laura Dugger: [00:43:31] Sylvia, where is your son now on his journey of recovery?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. He graduated from college. So that was a big plus. I mean, I would be honest in saying that I think it's still something that he's really drawn to. And I think like he says, to me, "Mom, our generation is just going to video games for the rest of our lives. That's what we do. You guys would watch TV, we videogame."

 

So I think it's going to still be an ongoing challenge for him. I wouldn't say the ending is, you know, he gave up into gaming, and everything's great. I think it's still a challenge for him. But I've seen a definite maturing, and an ability to balance it out with his real life.

 

I think that's important, too. It's not like AA where, well, you just don't ever touch alcohol again. With these types of addictions, it's difficult, because you're going to be in technology the rest of your life. You can't just, for most of us, throw it away. So it's definitely an ongoing challenge, I think, for him. But I would say the key piece was just the relationship of him knowing that I love him and I'm supporting him, encouraging him, and his awareness of what's going on. And the education he's received on the topic has really been helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:44:47] Well, thank you. That's incredibly helpful to hear the reality and the picture of real-life struggle with this and maturing and managing it. And for others who are maybe in the midst of a struggle with a digital addiction, what's your vision maybe 10 years from now, for those who learn to master this area of their life compared to those who eventually will become mastered by it?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, I tell people all the time, if you master your technology instead of it mastering you, you really will be a cut above your peers. I would say that to the college students that I would teach. If you're able to master it and really have a focus brain single task, you're going to have better emotional intelligence, which is your self-awareness. If you're able to get off your phone and tune into what you're feeling and journal that, you're going to have better self-management, because our overuse of technology shuts down our prefrontal cortex, and that's the executive management part of our brain.

 

So you're going to be able to self-manage better. You're going to have a better relationship management. You'll have deeper relationships with God. You're going to be able to hear from God because you're still and you're quiet and you can hear from Him. Definitely, you know, the deeper relationship with your family and friends. And not only to talk to God, but really being a listener and being able to hear God's voice, it's just such an important part of our relationship with God.

 

And I think, for those who, unfortunately, are going to be mastered by it, I guess just we'll look at the opposite of that. That they're going to really struggle and not have good EQ. And resources is showing how important that emotional intelligence is now for success, people with high EQ make more money, they have more friends, they have a better quality of life.

 

Your relationships are not going to be as deep because it does take that attachment. They need your eyeballs. And if they don't have your eyeballs, you're not going to have those close attachments. And you're going to honestly just the addicted brain... your brain loves novelty. You're going to probably get into other addictions, as well. Because, you know, if you're going to become pleasure-seeker, or as my dad talked about becoming a hedonic, where you don't find pleasure in anything. So, you know, I hate to paint such a grim picture but this really is serious, and it's the truth.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:47:11] That is serious. And I do appreciate you even giving practical steps prior in this conversation of actionable ways that people can start working on their own healing journey. And as it relates to the future, where do you think technology is headed and what should be on our radar?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: I love talking about future things. It's important to think as Christians for us to be aware of what technology is being created. And I think in some ways, we're probably not as savvy in that topic as we should be. So technology's really moving from external to internal. So we've had our smartphones, now we have our watches we wear, and now Google's working on an implant to implant us with a chip.

 

So basically the goal is that at nighttime, we would be able to download everything directly into our brains. They also, of course, have Google Glass you've probably heard of, where you'll just wear the glasses, and then you know, projects the screen in front of you. So you can have the internet with you wherever you go.

 

We have what's called the singularity, with Ray Kurtzweil. Google is paying him millions and millions of dollars to create what's called singularity. If you're interested, you can Google it. But it's basically where we will merge humanity and technology. He says that it will be a future of unparalleled human-machine synthesis.

 

So, again, as Christians, we need to know about this. It's called transhumanism, where the goal is that they say humans are limited and we need to evolve. So our next level of evolving is to become part robot, part human. And the goal of transhumanism is really to live forever, which if we see where that's coming from, that God hasn't created us to live forever here on earth.

 

So I think it's important for us as Christians to know about that, to also be aware of what's being created in relationship robots. Many people want to be in relationship with a robot instead of a human. We see that even in Japan, the marriage rate is going away down. And a lot of that is because real life can't compete with a virtual life. So the more immersed we are in the virtual world, the less desirable the real world becomes to us.

 

And we see that we haven't really gotten to touch on that with internet pornography, that many people can't even have real-life sexual relationships because what they get through the digital images is so much greater than real life. So just to be aware of that as Christians, you know, what is happening out there and what honestly in the next 20 or 30 years our children are going to be facing.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:49:59] Wow, that is very sobering to hear. And even that last example of pornography, that maybe that intimacy or connection that they're actually longing for can never be met in that way, because God didn't design it that way. And it does sabotage the real-life relationship then. A few things then with this, what do you challenge us to do with this information? And how are you aware of all of these future trends?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, you know, I think the challenge to us as Christians starts with something my dad talked about all the time. And that is we need to respect our limitations. You know, the limitations of our bodies, our brains. We're not meant to live forever on this earth. We're created to be in a relationship with God, an intimate love relationship with God, with ourselves, that self-awareness with other human beings. It's demanding, it's messy. And that's why a lot of people say they want to be in relationship with robots, they don't make demands of them.

 

Real life is demanding, real relationships are messy. But this is what God uses to refine us really and to transform us into His image. So we need to protect those establishments, protect our God's space, that place in our brain where we experience God.

 

You know, scientists are telling us that our brains could be rewired to a place where we won't be able to even experience God. I think in Psalm 139:13, it says, "You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together and my mother's womb. Your workmanship is marvelous, how well I know it." So we need to protect this amazing workmanship, those delicate parts of our brain of our God's space, and to see what's happening with and fight that. You know, relationships with robots, whatever the world is saying, to know that God has us to be in real-life relationships, and to be in real life as much as possible.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:52:03] I think that's a great challenge to end on. One of the benefits of technology is that we can still learn more from you even after this chat, regardless of where we live in the world. So Sylvia, where can we find you online?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Sure. Well, I have the flourishwellbeinguniversity.com. You can go there, or you can email me at drsylvia@flourishwellbeinguniversity.com.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will provide those links in the show notes for today's episode. And you know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, I love that. Well, my savvy sauce relates to what I shared about protecting my God's space in my brain. And that is I take 10 to 15 minutes each day to practice silence and solitude with God. I just get in a quiet place and just be with Him. No agenda, just being open to Him, finding my centeredness and my peace in that place.

 

And then after the time's over, as I go through my day, any time crisis arise or anxiety comes to me or the storms of life, I just go back to that place, Laura, that place of stillness and quiet. And that really helps me to stay centered, to stay grounded in a very uncentered ungrounded world. So I hope that your listeners will consider that, to take some time to do that each day.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, well, thank you for living out these principles that you've recommended to us today. You're just such a great role model for us to follow as we all seek to steward technology well, and ultimately glorify God in the process. So thank you for sharing all of that with us today. And thank you for being my guest.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, thank you, Laura, for having me. It was really a privilege.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:54:05] Ever since launching this podcast in 2018, our team has tried to release at least one episode every Monday morning. In addition, we also launched a secret bonus episode for paying patrons on the first of every month. But in 2022, we're changing things up a bit. We will continue to release the bonus episode for paying patrons. But on those weeks when it's the first of the month, that will be the only episode going live. Which means next week on Monday, there will not be a brand new episode available for the general public.

 

If you benefited from any messages on The Savvy Sauce, we would encourage you to support our work through joining Patreon. You can go to thesavvysauce.com, click on the "Patreon" tab, click "join Patreon here", and then follow the prompts so that you can have access to all these bonus episodes and downloadable scripture cards. We hope you join us there. Otherwise, we'll see you back here in two weeks.

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.

 

[00:56:53] If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

169. Unlocking Meaning and Purpose in Your Life and Overcoming Burnout with Dale Wilsher

 

"Pay close attention to yourself [concentrate on your personal development] and to your teaching; persevere in these things [hold to them], for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you." 1 Timothy 4:16 (AMP)

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What are some questions we can ask ourselves to begin to uncover clues about our ideal career?

2. What is a sample list of values and how can we connect those with our to-do list to see if we are spending our time doing what matters most?

3. How does our personality impact the type of career that suits each of us best?

 

Dale Wilsher is an executive life and career coach, keynote speaker, award-winning author of What’s Your Mom Type? and creator of the digital course, Career Kickstart: 30 Days to Your Ideal Job. She specializes in helping her clients discover their truest work and lead their fullest life by deeply understanding their God-given design and individual mission. Once a SAHM mom to her four inspiring daughters, ages 18-25, she is now and empty-nester enjoying a great new season with her husband, Jeff, the man of her dreams. They make their home in Boulder, Colorado. You can find Dale at www.YourAuthenticPersonality.com.

 

Dale Wilsher's Previous Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

Four Personality Types with Dale Wilsher

Patreon 19 Applying Personality Training to Parenting with Dale Wilsher

 

Career Kickstart: 30 Days to Ideal Job 

 

Free Training: How to To Work that Matters on January 25 at 6pm MST. You can register here. 

 

Life Purpose Tool from Dale

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at LemanProperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 

 

Dale Wilsher is my returning guest today, and she is a very motivating executive and career coach, speaker, and author. You're going to leave this conversation empowered and equipped to understand the deeper purpose of your own life and then actually live in a way that is congruent with your deepest values and the desires God has placed within you.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dale. 

 

Dale Wilsher: Thanks, Laura.  It's so great to be with you today. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'm going to make sure that we link to your previous episodes in today's show notes. [00:01:17] But for now, will you just update us on who you are and what your life looks like in this current season?

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah, thank you. My name is Dale Wilsher Rakes. Actually, Dale Wilsher is my maiden name, and that's what I've always used for my business, but I got married a couple of years ago, so that has been big for me.

 

I'm a life and career coach. I'm a speaker and an author. I have to say, getting married a couple of years ago was a huge thing for me. Jeff is the man of my dreams. I had been a single mom for seven years prior to getting married. I had full custody of all four of my daughters who were deeply hurting. It's very rare to get full custody. It was a very difficult season. There were several suicide attempts with my daughters, lots of interventions. It was challenging. So to come out of that time when we were all carrying such a heavy load. [00:02:17]  

 

In 2016, I met Jeff, and we knew pretty quickly that this was probably going to be it, but we weren't ready to get married. I have a big crew. So we bought houses down the street from each other, and the realtor was like, "Oh my gosh, this is the best day of my life. I just sold two houses. You're kidding." 

 

Jeff would push his little lawnmower down, and he mowed my grass, and he would do the same and help me shovel and all the things that I would have to be doing with all the other dads at my last house. So it was delightful. 

 

Then when we got married a few years later, then we all moved down the street into Jeff's house. So for the last couple of years, we've been blending our houses and our hearts. I'm so grateful. 

 

I was married for 23 years the first time, and it was difficult. Came with a lot of brokenness. To know that marriage can be like this, even when we fight, he gets so mad, because I'm like, this is awesome. [00:03:17] So just enjoying this. 

 

For me, my verse has always been from Job, where it says at the very end that God blessed the latter half of Job's life more than the first. And me too. Everyone is doing really well. 

 

My girls are now ages 18 to 25. The oldest is a chemical engineer in Mobile, Alabama, and my second is 23. She is a nurse who just got her dream job with Children's Hospital here in Denver on the oncology floor. All the rest of us live in Boulder. Savannah's the only one who's out of town. 

 

Then I have two who are in college right now. One is a senior who's going to graduate with a degree in criminal justice, and then one who's a freshman who's looking to do social work. Knowing how much healing has had to happen, and how we really prioritize mental health, and how that's created a lot of resilience, and also a lot of purpose for my daughters. Seeing their majors and their mission in life really speak to some of the deeper hurts they have. [00:04:20] I'm so darn proud of those girls.

 

I just became an empty nester, which is crazy. I've never had this level of freedom. It feels like forever. I'm thoroughly enjoying having time now that they're all in a great place to enjoy my husband, but also my business. For the last 15 years, I've been a speaker, but mostly in the faith-based setting, and mostly to women. 

 

Now, I speak mostly in the corporate and business world. I talk about meaningful productivity and meaningful engagement, really connecting your work to your why. Because I believe that if I can help them connect to their hearts, usually in an environment they're not thinking about their hearts, then that's my opportunity to help them also get closer to the Lord. 

 

I also speak in the medical world, because burnout is caused by a lack of purpose. I help them double down and find their unique meaning in the work that they're doing. As an executive life and career coach, I work with a lot of ambitious Christian women, is what I say. [00:05:25] It's not always women. It's not always Christians. But people who have big dreams. 

 

So I'll help a lot of women build authentic coaching businesses, or find their ideal jobs, and just live really full, abundant lives. There's a lot to that that I like to contribute in the form of boundaries, and getting rid of limiting beliefs, and all that kind of stuff.

 

I've also launched a couple of digital courses, and wrote a book. My life is very full, and I'm really grateful.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. Oh, my goodness. That is the word that came to my mind as you were sharing, is you have such a full life. Thank you for being open-handed and authentically sharing a little glimpse of your story. I'm just assuming that there are many listening who maybe have walked through a similar path, or they can identify currently with parts of your story. I know that you're going to be a huge encouragement. 

 

How has your personal career journey impacted the way that you're now helping other people turn their purpose into full potential? [00:06:28] 

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah. Thank you. I think it is important to tell our stories. And it always comes with a lot of humility. For me, that always feels like embarrassment, but God has done a lot. It's nice when you're a little further out in your story, because it's been several years now to see some of what He's doing. I think it's always the most challenging. I always applaud the women who are telling their stories while they're happening. 

 

For 17 years, I was a stay-at-home mom. Before that, I was a microbiologist, and then I was in technical sales. I loved the work that I did. But when my children came along, I had always wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I came from a long line of them, so that was a dream for me. 

 

I love growing people. I love helping them find the best of who they are and see themselves through a lens of God's eyes and just all kinds of teaching things. I'm a huge fan of that. 

 

As it went on, and obviously with several of them, that is a longer period of time, but I was married to an alcoholic who had some other addictions and mental illness that we weren't really aware of at the time. [00:07:36] That knowledge was kind of progressive, which we were like, oh, okay. 

 

I would just try to honor my vows, but also protect my children and still honor a position as father the best I could. I needed to sacrifice basically my potential, my vocational potential to build theirs. It was worth it. Wouldn't change a thing. 

 

But it definitely made it harder for me when all of a sudden one day I found myself separated. I did not see it coming. Like I said, I've been married 23 years, and this happened on my 23rd wedding anniversary. I got married when I was 23, so it was very eerie what God was doing, but I knew he was in it. We had had a lot of counseling. I had been praying for years, had a lot of people speaking into my life.

 

If you've ever gone through that or know someone who has, sometimes God uses something He hates, divorce, to overcome something He hates more, sinful lifestyles and the way people are treated in unloving ways. [00:08:39] 

 

So I walked through that door and found myself needing to get full-time employment. That was very different. I had been speaking for years at that point, but it was a hobby. I always say I spoke to mops groups and some faith-based groups and... you know, you make potpourri and Starbucks cards like that. You cannot pay your mortgage with that stuff. So it's lovely, but I needed to ramp it up big time.

 

I met with people and tried to figure things out, but I felt very unprepared for a life outside of motherhood. I was very confused as to who I was and what I was truly equipped to do. I felt like I had been trying to be everything to everyone for a very long time, which made it very confusing as to who I was supposed to be, what I actually was good at. Was I good at anything? What did I have to contribute? 

 

So for me, starting to define myself and the ways that God had gifted me and what I had to offer, that is what I want to do for others. [00:09:45] I want them to have direction because they have definition, that we're all a slice of his image.

 

None of us are called to be Him. We're in a body for that. We all get to contribute different things. And I believe it's so important that we know what we're here to do so that we can steward that and offer it to the world.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that was such an unplanned season of transition. It makes me think of all these other people where work has shifted recently over the past few years. So, from your perspective as a professional life and career coach, what are some common transitional times that you've noticed people have been reevaluating their career choice?

 

Dale Wilsher: Great question. As I mentioned, a life crisis, something like divorce or widowhood. I've definitely had clients who have been in both of those situations. I do find that right off the bat it is very difficult to make those kinds of decisions. [00:10:44] But once you've had a little bit of time and have moved through it, sometimes you just need to get work. But then to thoughtfully go after what am I really here to do? What do I really want to be able to contribute? So life crisis, career reentry.

 

For moms, some dads, but I have worked primarily with moms, their kids are old enough to be in school, and so now they need to get back and start contributing financially. Or it could be you've got an empty nest. You know, where I am right now, what is going to fill my time, and what is intentional? 

 

I see it with people retiring as well. I've worked with a lot of people in medicine with some very meaningful jobs, and their personal lives don't seem to have the same amount of meaning, and so it's very difficult for them to feel like they're going to do purposeful work after medicine. But they need to retire from one thing so that they can also prioritize other important things. 

 

Then finally, just unhappiness. You know, we're seeing it now with the great resignation. A lot of people have been unhappy in their work, and now they're starting to really take action on that. [00:11:50] You know, whether they've been bored or maybe burned out. 

 

I had a client, her name is Kate.  She was in marketing, and she was very unhappy with her work. She was a great woman, and I don't think other people at her job knew it, but she knew it. You know, she said that she kind of stumbled into her marketing major, was good at it, someone recommended it, and then she got a couple of good jobs right out of college and, you know, always did well. But she's like, "I don't even love this. Like, why am I doing this?" 

 

And then one of the physicians I worked with, you know, he had a 30-year career in medicine, and yet he did all of that, as he's reflected back, to get the approval of one of his parents. Then you start asking, like, "What's wrong with me that I don't love what I'm doing? Am I not grateful or whatever it is?" And it's not that. It's just that your meaning is no longer being able to be delivered through your role. There's a better role for you. 

 

But unhappiness, we need to listen to that. [00:12:49] A lot of times as women, we will say, Ah, you know, I'm just being selfish or it's not spiritual if I like it. As if it's only God's will if it stinks for us, which is not true. 

 

So really paying attention to things that do not feel good and reflecting on those. Is there something better that you could be doing? And let that speak a little bit. So don't be impulsive. Let that be something that might open up some conversations with God.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. This is such worthwhile work because as I'm listening to you, I'm just reflecting back on the early years of marriage. And this was my husband's story. He was good at what he did, trained as an engineer, worked at IBM, and was getting positive feedback and raises and different things. But it wasn't aligning with the meaningful work that he desired. 

 

There were a lot of hard times in that season, but he made the career pivot and now works with Chick-fil-A and we are blessed and benefited by it daily. [00:13:56] It's infiltrated so many areas of our lives. 

 

So I just want to encourage people if that is a little question or there's a little fire being lit with desire for this change to pursue it. I think you're such a great one to lead us on this journey. So whether we're returning to the workforce or someone is a professional considering a pivot into a new industry, what are some questions that we can begin to ask ourselves to uncover clues about our ideal career?

 

Dale Wilsher: There are many. There are many different ways to go after this. Some of the things that I have people look for... and I go through this in the digital course that I've created about finding ideal work, so that you can kind of look at it from different perspectives.

 

But one I call just emotional insights. So there's one category of emotion, the powerful emotions that speaks to meaningful work. Some of those examples are when you feel important or you feel proud, confident, valuable. [00:15:00] There's 13 in total.  

 

But if you go back and reflect on times that you felt that way, what was it that you were doing? And not necessarily just the role because a role is not why you do something. It's not the purpose behind it. It's just the "what". There's many ways to deliver your why. But you know, what was going on? Were you working with people? Were you teaching them? Were you collaborating? Were you designing or creating? What was going on when you felt that way? 

 

I also have people take a look at what their hobbies are, what their abilities or their interests are. I usually give lists because it's sometimes easier just to choose from a bunch of stuff and come out of thin air with these ideas. But those speak to usually things you're good at. So what does that say?

 

One of the things that has been my hobby for years is hot yoga. I love it. It's very athletic. A lot of professional athletes do it. It speaks to kind of challenging and empowering and strengthening my body, which I chose to strengthen people's souls and their meaning and the work I do. [00:16:08] But it's still kind of got a similar “why” to it. So looking at that. 

 

Also, you know, what podcast do you listen to? What do you read all the time? What are those things that really interest you? Start there. What are those categories? And then what school subjects did you excel in? Go back to that. 

 

One of my best courses in college, I couldn't even believe it was a course was logic. And I was like, I cannot believe this is a subject. This is just intuitive. This is inherent. And people are like, No, actually it's not.

 

And part of logic is seeing patterns underneath what's there. And that speaks to my why. That's what I do. I help people see deeper meaning in things. And that was speaking even back then that I saw patterns. I just didn't have words for it. So pay attention to those kinds of things.

 

I had a young client who had been out of high school for a couple of years. His name was Ben. He really had no idea what he wanted to do. He was kind of caught up in the pandemic where everything canceled. [00:17:10] He just really wasn't sure what his thing was. 

 

He always loved history. That was his favorite subject, the one that he excelled in in school. But when we went back through it, it had to do a lot with the teacher because Ben was very relational and needed to be in relational kinds of work. But also it was a lot about investigative thinking. The way that that teacher thought really kind of indicated that Ben liked to think as an investigator. And that's one of the personality types that we have in work is the investigative personality type. So that can speak to some of the major responsibilities or activities in work when you look at kind of what you love and how you were designed.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. When I hear you talking about selecting your elective, it makes me reflect back to the time when I had to confirm with someone like, "Wait a minute, you mean I can get paid to help people with their relationships. That's incredible." Each of us, it probably does look very different. [00:18:11]

 

I like how you said, sometimes you put out a specific list for people to grab onto that. So what is a sample list of values and how can we connect those with our to-do list to see if what we're spending our time doing is what actually matters most to us?

 

Dale Wilsher: That's a great question. I am a huge fan of people understanding their values and really articulating what matters most to them. Values are intangibles. Like hiking is not a value. It's an activity. But what it gives you might be adventure or it could be peace or solitude. Those are the values. 

 

Same thing with family. I used to have when my clients would do that, family would be always at the top and faith. Especially with me, I said, that's a group of people. What it gives you is the value. Do they give you connection? Do they give you warmth? Do they give you support? 

 

So we're always looking a little bit underneath to understand the values because that's how you align with a truly authentic life. [00:19:18] They are the desires that God has put in your heart. So some examples are authenticity, growth, responsibility, courage. I mentioned some of those: support, peace. 

 

I have a tool that I will… we can put in the show notes if you like, which is a life purpose chart that gives values that I see a lot based on personality type. It's not exact, but I usually find about 70% of a person's values align with their personality type. So it's just nice to have a little bit of a list so you can choose and what resonates the most. 

 

In this talk that I give on meaningful productivity. I do an exercise where I help people discern if they're just reacting to urgency or if they're truly doing what's important. And those would be values-based activities.

 

I have them list their to do list in a column, just on the left-hand side. Just write down the things that are on your to-do list for today. Now you could also list it for your goals for the year or your goals for the month, whatever it might be. [00:20:17] 

 

Then on the right-hand side, I have them list out at least three of their values, things that just matter to you. I used to give people a long list of values, but then I found it was shopping at Nordstrom like, well, I've never needed a pair of red shoes, but it looks great. So I'll take them anyway. 

 

So I try not to give people too many choices. I actually would rather ask questions and listen for the values that are elicited. But there are lots of lists online. 

 

Then list those out and then draw lines from your to-dos to the values that they honor. What often happens is that you're like, there's no value that this honors. You know, I had one mom tell me like, "I'm doing laundry. There's no value to that."

 

Actually, as we mined down and we talked about how it shows that she's loving her family or caring for people, or there was some spiritual significance and washing away, you know, yesterday's dirt. We talked about that. [00:21:19] 

 

But there are some things that we're doing that are just shoulds. They're other people's values. They're not really things that are authentic or needed at the time. So really being clear on what you're doing, is it attached to something that is deeply meaningful to you? That's an important way to discern how you're doing with your time.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

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Laura Dugger: Dale, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Holocaust survivor and psychiatrist who was named Viktor Frankl, but he once said that life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. I hear you focusing a lot on helping people with meaning and purpose. So with all of that in mind, how do you help people uncover their purpose in life?

 

Dale Wilsher: I love Viktor Frankl. In fact, I got COVID when COVID hit in like March, whatever, 20. My husband and I were down for two weeks solid. He worked at a medical clinic, got it from a provider. So we were pretty sick. We didn't go to the hospital. 

 

But during that time, I don't know why I chose to read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. And it was fascinating, but it honestly... it was his story of living through a concentration camp and how difficult that was and how he felt like besides the sovereignty of getting through that, that the reason he was able to survive is he was able to find meaning in those dire circumstances. [00:24:41] 

 

So I believe meaning is crucial. And a lot of it comes from the way we think about things. Then they've actually found that meaning comes from four things. It comes from people and our relationships. It comes from purpose, which I'll talk about that in just a second. It comes from positivity of really redeeming, which is what Viktor Frankl did, finding meaning in suffering and seeing the positive spin, the good in that, you know, Romans 8:28. And then participation. That's something bigger than you. 

 

For those of us with faith, it's the transcendence and the awe that we have toward God. So all of that. So when I go back through, I work on all those things with people. But purpose specifically, I help them by... I usually go through a process that's threefold. 

 

First, I really want them to understand their personality type. There are specific strengths and motivators and values that are usually aligned with each of those types. And I want them to understand who they truly are, not who they think they should be, that leads to personality mass, but who they really are. [00:25:44] And then again, to define those values. That's kind of how you deliver your why is through those values.

 

As I mentioned, authenticity and growth, and courage is a huge one, which has gotten me through some really difficult times. Before I went through kind of this epiphany when I was single and really not liking who I was. I was not liked by the people around me and I could only see my weaknesses.

 

I remember kind of thinking that I was going to have to be way different for God to really... for me to be more like Jesus. And it was in this moment that I was out shoveling the driveway with all the other dads that I was so grateful that I was gritty enough to do that and courageous and strong. I realized that my personality type that God had given me and all the values that went with that, that was a blessing, not a curse. That He had equipped me for the journey that I would be on. 

 

I have to say, I don't know if we all would have survived literally had he not given me this personality. [00:26:50] So that is very purposeful. You have to see through a lens of positivity. 

 

Then finally, when I do the ultimate kind of like "why" statement or purpose statement, I have a variety of methods. One is... many of y'all might know this. It's the five levels deep. Some people will call it seven levels deep, but you kind of define what you love.

 

Like if you love being a mom or you love doing a certain job, what do you love about it? And then you ask five times, why do you love that? And whatever the answer is, and why do you love that? And then why is that important? Why do you love that? And you basically get down to the bottom, which is the reason that you do what you do.

 

And when I did that activity for me, it's because I want everyone to steward every strength they've ever been given. I want them to live up to their highest potential. I want every opportunity that God has given more than we can ask or imagine to be realized by all of His people. So five levels deep is one great way. [00:27:50] 

 

Another great way, which is super fun is to determine or kind of figure out what your favorite movie was as a child. I do this when I have a deeper time with clients. Because what story sticks to your heart? Because you watched a million stories or you read a million books.

 

You know, we've all seen a lot of things. There are actually 9 million minutes in our first 18 years. But the things that stuck, whether that's our memories or the movies and especially who your character is, that speaks to something that is deeply purposeful to you. 

 

My movie was when I was 13. It was 1979. It's called Heaven Can Wait. And it was like, right, same year that Grease came out. But it was a big movie back then. It was all about this football player that died. They accidentally pulled him out of his body. He really didn't die. So now they have to put him back into his body and they don't have the right body so they have to go put him in some other ones. 

 

So the people that I loved in that movie were able to see beyond the outside, beyond the body to who he was underneath. [00:28:54] They saw him for who he was. And that spoke to what I do. I see deeper meaning in people.

 

So when I had one client whose movie was Top Gun, and I kept thinking all about Maverick. She goes, "No, no Maverick's not my person. Goose is." And her “why” had a lot to do with that she was this incredible support person that aligned with these really powerful people, very much like Goose did for Maverick. And she helps them see what is really meaningful in life that, because sometimes ambition can blind us. So it's a fascinating thing. 

 

I have one of my clients, her movie was Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. She remembers crying when she was like six years old because he couldn't play in any reindeer games. As we went through her why, her why is to see old things in a new way. She's actually an interior designer for historic properties. But she does that so that people and properties can shine very much like Rudolph's nose. [00:29:55] 

 

So think about it. What was your movie and what was it saying? Who is your character? What were they all about? That has significant meaning. 

 

Then the other part is kind of like, what's the world you want to live in? What's wrong with the world sometimes is the way we go after it. For me, it's a world where people don't tap their potential because they don't know they have it, or they didn't know it was available to them, whatever that might be. I want the opposite. That's a part of your why. So lots of stuff there, but lots of good stuff.

 

Laura Dugger: That is good stuff, Dale. It really sounds so worshipful when you present it, because I think you've said basically when we discover more about ourselves or the way that God created us, it does lead us to worship and stand in wonder of our creator. Again, this is just such worthy work. 

 

What are some examples of our values and purpose than lining up with an ideal career? 

 

Dale Wilsher: That's kind of where we take these ethereal concepts... and it's got to be practical. [00:30:57] That's part of what I don't like, just sitting in great ideas. I really want it to land and make it happen. One client who is a family practice doctor, her values were connection, encouragement, and comfort. And you could see how medicine was a good fit. Those wouldn't automatically say, "Oh, you should be in medicine." But it was a great fit.

 

Her “why” is to speak truth and bring light into darkness. So she has the freedom to do that because she doesn't work in a hospital. She works in a clinic where she has more freedom and she's able to speak into the whole person versus being a specialist. But she said that when people are hurting, they are more open to light. And that is an ideal environment for her to deliver her values and her why.

 

Another client, four children, needed to go back to work and was getting her degree as a paralegal. And her values were order and holiness, which really, you know, for a lot of that, it's like truth. [00:32:03] That there is a truth. And the law is very much about the truth. Compassion, support. These were all things that absolutely fit being a part of the legal system as a paralegal. There's no telling where she will go with that. I've seen it. I mentioned the client who did marketing. That was a bad fit for her in the position she was in, in that realm, because she really valued freedom and she valued communication and she valued health. And she wasn't able to do much with those values in her job.

 

So what we have been able to discern is that some type of teaching or training probably in health and nutrition. And now that it's looking at which of the ways that she could make that happen through a podcast, through joining an e-learning platform as one of their trainers, lots of different ways to make that happen. 

 

Another client was going back into the workforce after a divorce and she was the social butterfly personality. So her values were connection and fun and freedom, kind of similar to Kate's. [00:33:08] So she kept thinking that she needed to go work in a bank and be a bank teller. And part of that was because her ex-spouse was more of the improver personality type that does value accuracy and doing things right.

 

She kept thinking she had to be like him and do work like that, that's who she was. Actually, she found that that was a horrible fit and she was miserable. She found a lot of joy and a lot of opportunities for promotion in retail. She actually ended up working with a container store and right away negotiating for design work and higher salary. And really it was a beautiful culmination of who she was and her passions coming to fruition.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. That's really helpful to grab on to both those matches and the mismatches. 

 

Have you checked out our library of articles available at TheSavvySauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:34:17] If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox. 

 

Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. 

 

We hope you check out all the available reads at TheSavvySauce.com under the articles tab. Your previous episodes on The Savvy Sauce focused more around personality, which we're kind of alluding to, and that's another area of your expertise. So how does our personality impact the type of career that suits each of us best?

 

Dale Wilsher: It's an important part. You cannot neglect how you were designed when you were looking for how you were going to deliver your contribution. [00:35:14] Your personality is meant to give direction and to provide just an indication of where you can be more productive or you can be more satisfied, where you'll be more creative.

 

I talk about personality in a four-type system. That's what the book, What's Your Mom Type was built on. Goes way back to Hippocrates. But in those four types, there are specific environments that they thrive in and specific types of jobs. 

 

Ben, who I mentioned earlier, he's a stabilizer. Stabilizers are more service-oriented kind of behind the scenes. They're actually the biggest portion of the population. They do best working on teams. I see them a lot in the nonprofit sector. I see them a lot prioritizing relationships, being very caring and nurturing like in therapy or in some kind of counseling area. I see it and a lot of educational systems. I see it with support specialists. I see it in medicine. 

 

They do like established methods. [00:36:14] So they're great when they're in customer service or maybe even in banking, something that's already established. They don't do well starting their own businesses. They do well joining one, but that's not their ideal thing. 

 

Same thing with, say, the opposite who's the doer. Now they are a smaller portion of the population and they need to do work where they're rewarded for their results. So they need something where what they do matters and it contributes to a bottom line. Something where they can be independent, overcome a lot of challenges, be fast. 

 

My daughter, Caroline, this is her major type. I remember when she worked at Chick-fil-A as a 16-year-old and they tried her out in different positions and she killed it on a drive-through because she was so fast. And that's where it mattered. There are other places that you don't want somebody being that fast because then people feel run over. But when you are waiting for that fabulous chicken sandwich, you would like it to come out quickly.

 

And there's many books written on this. [00:37:15] You know what? I use Myers-Briggs. I use something called the Holland Code, which is really a job personality. I mentioned that the investigative is one of them. Some people are social, you need to be working with people or for people. 

 

So just investigating all these different areas of who you are, it can really start to create some themes that you'll notice. And then you can start to make some decisions based on that.

 

Laura Dugger: And just to go a little bit further with those four personality types, we kind of covered two of them that were opposite. Could you also elaborate a little bit more on the other two that are opposite of one another?

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah, you bet. So the improver, which is the more analytical detail-oriented, we could say precisionist, a lot of us in our negative we'll say perfectionist, you do well in environments that are more academic or even financial in a way that accuracy matters. You get rewarded for quality. 

 

Also, I've seen this a lot with physicians and lawyers and other types of jobs that have a lot of schooling because it takes a lot of patience in that academic realm to allow someone to really thrive there. [00:38:27] So I see them at higher levels of education, not necessarily at the younger levels, but maybe more academic, college-level settings. 

 

I see this in writers and editors. I see it in architecture. But something where critical thinking, it matters. So if your job was to just be in front of people. And certainly, you can speak. But you're going to speak in a more formalized way. So you think about is that the way to do it?

 

Usually something that allows you to do quality work. When my daughter, who's now at Children's, so pediatrics was perfect for her as the opposite of this type, but she was considering which specialty. And surgery for her was not ideal because that was very precise. The patients were asleep and she likes interacting with patients. So she's like, "Well, I would barely get to do that." And it was quiet. Again, it was all about getting it just right. She's like, "I don't love that." I said, "I agree." But if you're an improver and a nurse, that might be ideal. [00:39:27] 

 

So then the opposite is that social butterfly. I call them the connector, because that's what they're here to do is connect with people. So anything with high people contact is a must. They need to be able to interact with others because they're inspiring and influential and very optimistic. So they need places where they're not just to tell us what could go wrong. There are the ones who get to bring the hope and the joy. 

 

So environments where there's a lot of variety, they usually have a very high number of dopamine receptors. So variety feeds those. They love things that are fresh and new all the time, the ability to express themselves, to communicate. Those are all the kinds of environments.

 

I see that a lot in sales and marketing because they're very influential and persuasive. I see it in human relations or human resources, interior design. It's very creative. But again, you could be an improver and be an interior design. I believe Joanna Gaines from Fixer Upper is more of an improver because she's a little bit more deep and thoughtful. So her design and creativity comes out of that. [00:40:30] 

 

So it's really just understanding what your great gifts are and what is probably common to that. And also what your weaknesses are. Usually, the opposite type will fill in your gaps. When I was in graduate school, which was a highly academic environment, I was getting my PhD in molecular biology, that is an improver environment, and I'm not an improver.

 

My parents were, and I was always trying to get their approval. But I kept thinking, like, What is wrong with me? That I am just not excelling here. What is going on? And while I liked all the science, I didn't like just thinking of the theory. I kept wanting to make it practical, which when I finally... I felt like that's one of the first moments I heard God speak to me, like, I need you to leave. And I thought, Oh my gosh, that's going to be embarrassing to all those people who got me into graduate school.

 

And so I did. I took a leave of absence and I got a job with a pharmaceutical company, which was much more practical where I could do the science. But that kind of shame, what's wrong with me, it may be that you're in the wrong environment for your personality. [00:41:31] So always know what you're really, really strengthened to do.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. That's so good. I actually have thought of that question multiple times this week. Even in parenting, there are certain parts that I'll think, what is wrong with me? Why do I need so many outlets of adult interaction time? What is wrong with me? And I was realizing that's a little bit of a shaming question to myself. But I relate to that connector personality. It's helpful to connect that, that that is how God wired me, and then takes discernment to figure out how to fulfill my roles well and steward this well, and yet be wise in the way that I'm filled up so I can pour out.

 

Dale Wilsher: For sure. And aren't you in the perfect role as a podcaster? Communicating and inspiring and influencing people with your great gifts. By the way, since we're usually married to our opposites, usually we share values, but we have opposite personality types, the stuff that bugs us is usually not the stuff that bugs them. [00:42:35] So that's where we can start to think what's wrong with me. Like, this doesn't bother my husband or this doesn't bother my wife. It's like, it probably won't. But really understanding that, you know, usually the stuff that bothers us, it keeps us from delivering what is important to us.

 

So if you can't connect with others, that would be deeply hard. You know, that's not what you were designed to do. So I love that you're in this role. You're great at it.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you, Dale. You're always such an encouragement. You know that we love practical application here. So what are a few homework assignments that you recommend and how can they help?

 

Dale Wilsher: I think if you're considering what is meaningful and what is your purpose and how might you be intentional with your time, the first thing you need to do is block some time. I'm a big fan of some time management tools that prioritize these things that will get eaten up by the urgent.

 

So a time blocking tool is just basically a grid with all the hours in the day and across the top is each day of the week where you literally say from 10 to 11 or from one to four, you know, because maybe you have a break or maybe whatever it might be, or even within your own job, you're able to kind of move some stuff out of the way. [00:43:53] 

 

What time do you want to give that you can prioritize this kind of work? Because no one's usually sitting around waiting for you to figure it out. Not like they are waiting for dinner or waiting for their lunch to get made or whatever it is. So prioritize that. Use some time blocking.

 

Again, if you want to Google time-blocking tools, there's usually some great stuff out there. I like thinking big. That's when it's time to sit down and do some vision casting. A cool exercise is to write your eulogy. What would you want people to be able to say about you? Especially those meaningful relationships. What do you want to do before you quote-unquote, "retire"? You know, when you feel like at that point, you're not going to be given it all to whatever your area of service is. 

 

What do you want? Who do you want to help? How do you want to help? "I want to help" is not a purpose statement, but how you want to deliver that. You know, ask some big questions. Do that five “why” exercise that I talked about where you just constantly ask, why do I like this? And why is that important? And why do I like that? [00:44:55] Just keep going down five or seven layers. It's fun to do it with someone else because you'll reveal more in a conversation than you would just writing things down. So find a great friend to do that with. 

 

The other thing I think that's so important when you're considering this is to really notice who you're connected to. And I have people write out this list of your current 100 where you make a list of maybe it's your Christmas card list, but it's also your neighbors and their spouses and what jobs they have or who they work for.

 

You are connected to more people than you realize. And you are connected to some people who are probably doing some things that you might be interested in doing one day. And those connections, they call it the strength of weak ties. It's usually not your close-knit group. It's the layer or two out. They are the ones that are more likely to help you get a position than anyone else. So make a list of who you're connected to. [00:45:53] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. You're amazing at vision casting and giving us this big-picture view. Now, what is one small step we can take in order to make progress and not lose the momentum that results from an inspiring conversation like this one?

 

Dale Wilsher: That is so important, Laura. I'm really glad that, you know, there you are landing the plane. Because we can talk about good stuff, but we won't ever achieve it. We won't tap that potential unless we do something.

 

I think choosing one thing.  You know, is it that you want to know your “why”? Is it that you feel like you need to define your personality? You know, lots of people like lots of different tools. Whatever your tool is, make sure it's speaking to... make a list. What are your greatest strengths and who could benefit from those? Pick something that you really want to know.

 

Because I think the small step that will also keep this going is then get an accountability partner, get a coach, get a good friend who's also thinking about the same thing. [00:46:55] Tap into a study group, your Bible study group. Find some people who maybe want to read a book about purpose or personality and talk about what that speaks to and find people who can keep you in the game and also teach you about yourself. 

 

They can share some things that they love and respect and admire about you that you're probably not seeing in yourself.

 

Laura Dugger: And Dale, you would be a fantastic coach for someone. I love that you're somebody who now they're getting to know, and maybe they can look into your website and find next steps there. So where can we find out more about you online?

 

Dale Wilsher: Thank you. My website is yourauthenticpersonality.com. You can also find me by DaleWilsher.com. That will send you right to Your Authentic Personality. And there are pages for my speaking, but for my coaching.

 

One thing that might really be particularly helpful is the career kickstart digital program that I have. We're going to launch it again, I believe February 7th. We'll launch it three times in 2022. [00:47:59] Registration begins January 25th and ends on February 2nd. The course begins on February 7th and it will go through March 25th. 

 

So if you go to the page for career kickstart, it's a 30-day program, meaning you're going to get 30 days' worth of content, videos, and worksheets. And you'll also have opportunities to be in an accountability group and also have a couple of one-on-one sessions with me, if that's something that you're interested in. There's several levels. 

 

But that really is for all the different populations that we talked about. Whether you're retiring, whether you're gearing up for a whole new career or your first career, or you're just wanting to see what else is out there, that is a great tool to do it. You can go at your own pace, but you can also get involved in a community that's doing the same thing. 

 

So Your Authentic Personality, look around. There's lots of resources for moms. Certainly the book is a great resource. There's a course on the book. Certainly reach out. There's lots of places that you can contact me. If you have questions, I'd love to be able to talk to you. [00:49:04] Of course, I do individual coaching. If you're looking for something more customized or something that needs to be a little faster and you want some additional help, I'd love to be able to help you with that.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes of today's episode. You may remember that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah, that's such a great question. I think without having a good phrase right off the bat, I think self-help, which a lot of times in Christian circles is frowned upon. I believe in self-help and the way that we have to understand ourselves. But self-help is supposed to lead to others' help. The reason that we know ourselves is so we can really contribute the best of ourselves to others. 

 

If you have something awesome in the bottom of your purse and you don't know it's there, it's never going to serve anyone. [00:50:03] So you need to be brave enough and humble enough to know who you are so that if it's time to take all of your strengths that are being used in a private sphere and move it into the public sphere, you will have the confidence to act. Because confidence is built on action. Rumination with all the overthinking keeps us from acting. But you cannot act and ruminate at the same time. So take some action. Get out there and learn and grow and tap your very full potential.

 

Laura Dugger: Always a great savvy sauce. It really reminds me... I just want to share one piece of scripture that I was camping out in this morning, and I think it relates to this talk and this charge that you've given to each of us. So it's from 1 Timothy 6:16 in the amplified version. And I'll just read it here. It says, "Pay close attention to yourself [concentrate on your personal development] and to your teaching; persevere in these things [hold to them], for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you." [00:51:13] 

 

So, Dale, I want to encourage you. Thank you for taking that verse seriously and applying it and encouraging and motivating all of us to do the same. I always look so forward to our time together because your energy and positivity is contagious. And I always learn so many new concepts. So thank you for equipping each of us today. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

 

Dale Wilsher: Oh, thank you, Laura. And thank you for that verse. I thought I had kind of tapped into every verse that was on this topic. And honestly, I had never put that one together. It was powerful. Thank you. Thank you for reminding us where this all comes from.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.[00:52:13] 

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:53:15] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:54:14] 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

168. Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner

 

“Day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts” Acts 2:46 ESV

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Abby Turner is a young professional who is single and loving life as a food blogger, speaker, and writer. Born into a large family, she grew up in Central Arkansas, where she learned the importance of community and Biblical hospitality at a young age. After completing undergraduate degrees at Ouachita Baptist University and obtaining her Master's from Baylor, Abby lived in 6 states in 5 years, learning that community is essential to a healthy relationship with Christ. Over the last few years, Abby has spoken at college/universities, churches, companies and has been featured on regional TV shows and podcasts. Abby's passion is to encourage women to stop wasting time waiting for the perfect family, house, or table and to start opening their homes, cooking for friends and building community. You can learn more about Abby and enjoy even more recipes by visiting her website at atabletopaffair.com or on social media @atabletopaffair.

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What has God taught you is the most important piece of furniture in our home?
2. What lessons have you learned as it relates to the table that parties, serves, and welcomes?
3. How do you creatively add generosity and elements of surprise to keep this process fun?

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Living Table

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org 

 

My exuberant guest today is Abby Turner, the author of The Living Table cookbook and founder of A Tabletop Affair. We're going to discuss unexpected ways God teaches us about hospitality through Scripture, and Abby's going to share her personal experiences where God has invited her to experience more of Him through gathering people together around the table. She's also going to give us practical tips for implementing these joys into our own lives.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Abby.

 

Abby Turner: Thank you so much. I'm so excited for our conversation today. [00:01:19] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I love your energy and you're so upbeat, and I'm excited to connect as well. I want to start here with you telling us more about your upbringing and specifically how hospitality played a role in your life.

 

Abby Turner: I am one of a couple dozen grandkids and my mom's one of five. I grew up in a town where we all kind of grew up on the same street. We were always doing things together. So essentially, I had five sets of parents and all of these cousins that acted more like brothers and sisters. And we did everything together. I mean, we were always cheering each other on and supporting each other.

 

But the one thing that I remember is that we always came together for lunch, for dinner, for breakfast at the table. It was something that was super important. And I don't know that I really identified the importance of the table until later in life. But I saw my grandmother, I saw my aunts and uncles, I saw my mom and dad really inviting not only family to the table, but friends to the table. [00:02:27] 

 

It was something where if this is someone that you love, if this is someone that you enjoy being around, then we want to enjoy and we want to love being around them, too, so bring them here. And so it was never about the formality of the food. It was never about the perfection of the meal. It was about bringing people together and communing and having deep conversation and building each other up. As I grew up, that kind of notion of hospitality, that gift, I guess, that discipline was just cultivated in me.

 

I'm not sure that I really understood how special that gift or that discipline was until I got out of college and was doing life essentially on my own as a single in a new town and had to build friendships and had to figure out, how do you build friendships? [00:03:24] And the Lord nudged me towards like, how have you built relationships your whole life around the table with people, around food as the conduit to get the conversation started? 

 

I feel like this thread, this theme of the table has followed me throughout my life, but I don't know that I identified it until the last five or six years. So it's been a neat journey to kind of walk through that and look back and say, wow, God was developing something in me at three or four years old that now at 32, I'm just now identifying as like, Oh, that's a woven story that you have written. Just sitting back in just awe of who God is in that.

 

Laura Dugger: I just love hearing how your family taught you about the value of gathering and welcoming others. I'm also excited to dig into specific things that God has taught you about the table and hospitality. [00:04:25] So what has he taught you is the most important piece of furniture in our home.

 

Abby Turner: Yeah. I mean, by far, I did not realize, I think, how important the table was. I write in my cookbook, The Living Table, that there was a moment in Birmingham, Alabama, when I was so lonely, I was ready to give up, throw my hands up and just say, I'm out of here. I called my mom and she said, "No, you need to make a meal for someone and invite someone over." I said, "I can't cook." I grew up around the table. I grew up watching my grandmother, my aunts and my uncles and my mom all cook. And yeah, I could have made a grilled cheese. But I was like, "I am growing up in the age of Food Network and the MasterChef stars. I can't cook like that, Mom." And she said, "No, it doesn't have to be something special, something huge. You just need to make something."

 

So I was like, "Great. Well, then I'm going to go order tzatziki and I'll put tzatziki on the table." And she said, "No, there's something special, something so unique about making the meal." [00:05:29] And so I made these cheesy tortellini. Read about it in the book. It was horrible.  But I made it. My friend thought it was awesome.

 

She actually went to work the next day and she invited more people to my house. And I was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Like, this is my house. You're inviting people to my house." I thought that this was not how that was supposed to go. And she just raved about it. It wasn't the food. It was the conversation. It was the relationship built. One person turned into three, turned into five. I ended up having a Bible study in my home that season. 

 

It just was so cool to see how God used the table to fill a void. I heard a pastor a couple of years ago, and I deeply disagreed with it for a minute. But it was the Spirit just convicting me of kind of a selfish thought that I had put on God. [00:06:26] 

 

But the pastor said in the Old Testament, God's provision for loneliness was marriage, but in the New Testament, He sends Jesus. He sends his Holy Spirit. He leaves His Spirit here to cultivate the church. And God's provision for loneliness in the New Testament becomes community, becomes His church, becomes his Spirit. And I was like, "No, no, no, no, no. As a 30-year-old single, God's provision for loneliness in my life is marriage. I want to be married. I want to have a family." 

 

But it was really sitting with that going, No, God wants me to build community. God wants me to be encouraging and empowering and edifying in other people's lives. That's why I'm here. And without community in my life, I'm void of so much blessing He wants to give me. 

 

Paul describes that we need to be imitators of Christ. If we're going to imitate Christ, how did Jesus live His life? He lived his life around a table with food, with people, with strangers, with Zacheaus, with people He didn't know. [00:07:34] He lived it with his tribe, with his disciples, with His tried and true. 

 

So if we're truly going to be imitators, we need to come back to how did Jesus do that? He did it around a table. It's the first piece of furniture in Exodus that God instructs us to make a table. He didn't say make an altar. He didn't say make a chair or a couch. He said, "I want you to make a table because that is where the bread of presence will be." And I just go back to John where he says, "I'm the bread of life." And it's like, yeah, the bread is always supposed to be on the table, which means Jesus will always be there when we come to the table. 

 

He says it in Revelation. He's like, "I want to invite you to my table. It is ready." Why? Because Jesus is already at the table. He is ready to eat with us. And if we just pass that table by, if we don't ever use it, if we don't ever bring people to it, then we're missing out, we're voiding our life of this goodness, of this community, of this blessing that He wants to give us. [00:08:38] 

 

Laura Dugger: What a great practical way to be imitators of him. And like you said, it's so enjoyable and there are so many blessings tucked in as well. And you've referenced this book called The Living Table. I love this cookbook. It's beautiful and it's approachable. 

 

You also do some in-depth writing about devotions in there. So can you tell us more about the table types that you cover in this book?

 

Abby Turner: Yeah. There are several different tables that I go through in the book. And really the reason I broke it up into tables is because I feel like there are different ways that we can view different types of tables. I go through them kind of at a high level in what I call the hosting handbook at the very beginning of the book.

 

But it's the table that connects and how we are going to build relationships with people. It's the table that teaches. So really encouraging you bring people in, whether this is a prayer group or a Bible study. 

 

The table that parties really just like all of those moments in life. I like to call them micro moments because while birthdays and anniversaries and weddings and those are big moments. [00:09:46] Sometimes it's the micro-moments of life where we can really get some of that good juice out and be like, oh, that was a good moment. Building, doing life, encouraging, being edified by my people.

 

You go into the table that serves, which is really just about opening our hearts up, being vulnerable in those moments of life. The table that welcomes just all about the get-togethers. And then ending with the table that celebrates. Just those parties that are kind of newer. The Friendsgiving, the Galentine's. I even have a New Year's party in there. 

 

So really focusing on some of those holidays that maybe it's not the big Thanksgiving meal. It's not the big Christmas meal. It's those kind of one-off parties where we can really celebrate life with our people.

 

Laura Dugger: Goodness, Abby, that is so creative. Now I want to do a deeper dive into a few of these. So specifically, let's discuss the table that parties, serves, and welcomes. What lessons have you learned as it relates to each of these? [00:10:49] 

 

Abby Turner: Yeah. So when you look at the table that parties, those recipes in there are all about, you know, the home gating, the Hallmark Christmas movie party, the pool party. So really bringing people in in those kind of big moments of life and how they come together.

 

Jesus focused on celebrating moments and building relationships with people. I just look at the first miracle that Jesus performed was at a party. It was at a wedding. And so I can't help but think that Jesus was one that loved celebrating people and loved being around people in fun and exciting and in different settings. 

 

So in my life, in my heart, to feed someone, to bring someone in for a party, is to love them, is to serve them. I don't want people to be so intimidated by the party, by the perfection that the party kind of puts on us, that it has to be Instagram-worthy and Pinterest-perfect and all of those things that we don't have the party. [00:12:02] 

 

You know, I think that we can become so intimidated and so paralyzed by the perfection that the world puts on us that we say, "You know what, I can't do it. So I'm not going to," when it's not about the perfection of the party, it's about the people that are at the party. And I think that that is what when you look at the miracle at the wedding, like that's the point is that the wedding goers, the people that were there didn't see the miracle happen. It was the servants. It was the people hosting the party that saw the miracle. 

 

And so I think that if I can encourage anyone with a party, it's that, guess what? When you bring people in, God's going to show you something. God's going to bless you through something and you're going to reap tenfold by bringing people in. Throw off that notion that it has to be perfect and make it all about the party. Make it all about the people. Make it all about celebrating them and loving them. And use food as that conduit to get them there. [00:13:05] Use food as that conduit to start the conversation. But it doesn't have to be some elaborate spread.

 

It can be your store-bought basics and spicing them up just a little bit. And that's what I love about The Living Table and I love this cookbook because I'm not a chef. I'm not classically trained in the art of food. I just have found some really nice hacks to taking something store-bought and spicing it up just a little bit, zhuzhing it up and preparing it for people in 30 minutes or less. Really quick and easy. Very simple. Because it's not about how much time you spend in the kitchen. It's about the people that you're serving.

 

And when you look in Scripture, when you look at Mary and Martha, that's what Jesus was saying. He said, Martha, I'm not going to take this away from Mary because Mary got it right. Mary knew what needed to be. She sat with her people. She sat at the feet of her Lord. And Martha, while everything you're doing, the preparation, your laundry list of things you need to do is so great, I get that, but sometimes you just need to come out from behind the kitchen. You need to sit with your people. [00:14:12] 

 

And that's what I hope the table that parties really encourages people is that it's not about the perfection of the party. It's about the people at the party.

 

Laura Dugger: That's so good. Will you elaborate now on the table that serves?

 

Abby Turner: Yeah, so the table that serves, you look at those different sections in there. You've got a sip and see a bridal brunch, a newborn meal train, send off snacks, housewarming goodies. I really wanted to create a section in the book that was all about those natural life moments, because those natural life moments happen for all of us. They happen for our friends. They happen for our community. And a lot of times it's overwhelming to think, how can I be a part of this person's life moment or how can I celebrate this person or how can I love this person?

 

When you look through Scripture, I loved the story of the women in Luke. [00:15:14] They all were healed. They saw a miracle happen and then they followed Jesus throughout His ministry all the way to the cross. And so these women were in each other's life. They were brought together by Jesus. They were brought together by seeing a mirror, by seeing the Spirit, by seeing God work. They naturally just lived life together. They eventually walked. They made the journey to the cross.

 

I think that God has this very unique power to unite us in a way and to bind our souls together. When we find those people, when we serve those people, we are being Jesus' hands and feet in their life moments. And we need other people. We need our community. [00:16:13] So we need to know that when our friends are going, when our community is going through something, whether they're moving to another town, so you're sending them off, they just had a baby, so you're doing a sip and see. Or they are moving into a new house, so you do a housewarming goody. We need to show up for our people because Jesus showed up.

 

Laura Dugger: What would you like to teach us about the table that welcomes?

 

Abby Turner: So if you haven't caught on yet, I didn't break the cookbook up into appetizers, meal types, desserts. I broke it up into these what I call micro-moments or get-togethers of life. So the way that you can use the book is say, Okay, any of the recipes can be made any Tuesday, any Saturday you want to make them. 

 

But I broke them up so that if you have a specific micro-moment of life that you're like, what do I make for this, what do I make for this coffee date, what do I make for this movie night, what do I make for this pool party, then you can go to that section and there are five or six recipes that are 30 minutes or less. Very simple. [00:17:18] And you can just be encouraged that you don't have to put an appetizer with it. You don't have to make a meal. It's all right there for you. Super simple. 

 

But my favorite section of the whole book is this unexpected guest section that comes from the table that welcomes. Because I think that when we are practicing the discipline of hospitality and I say the discipline of hospitality, because while it is a spiritual gift and some of us are naturally gifted with this gift, it is also a spiritual discipline.

 

What I mean by that is that it is something that if we use it in our life, we practice this discipline like you would practice running for a marathon, you would practice any discipline of life, that it draws us closer to who that character of God, what His character truly is, this [serp?], this love, this just the humility that you have, the vulnerability that comes from inviting people in. [00:18:18] 

 

You see Jesus spending so much time around tables in His ministry. What I think that we can see, you know, I mentioned Zacchaeus earlier. I think that he was not unexpected to Jesus as God, but Jesus as man saw Zacchaeus and He said, "Let's go eat." He had not planned to have a meal with Zacchaeus that day. But it was this unexpected moment that ended up transforming his life. 

 

And I write that your invitation to someone to come to your table could be their invitation to heaven. Look at Lydia in Scripture. I mean, she opened her home, served Paul, and the Spirit ended up converting her. It was because she opened her home that she received that blessing of eternal life. Like, wow, God has so much if we just open our homes and open our tables, pull out a seat, and invite someone to sit there with us. Because Jesus, Jesus promises that He will always be there and He will always show up. [00:19:32] 

 

Laura Dugger: Your lessons are astounding, what you draw from Scripture and then how you tie it in with food and gathering the tables. So I'm just going to look at page 116. And I love because you're first quoting Acts 2:46, where it says, "Day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts."

 

And then you write, "Let me break this down for you." Luke, the writer of the book of Acts, was saying the followers of Jesus were hanging out and eating in their homes together day in, day out. Not only did this bring them closer together as a community, but it brought them closer to Jesus." Is there anything you would like to say to elaborate on that? I just found that to be so profound.

 

Abby Turner: I mean, you can't have community without Jesus being right there in the center of it. Like good community will always push you back to the heart and to who Jesus is. And I love that. [00:20:35] Like if you're listening to this right now, and you're lonely, or you're sitting there and you are fighting isolation, community. Find your tribe. Find your people.

 

And it doesn't necessarily mean... I mean, this is very practical in eating meals day in and day out and yes, you are going to build some relationships if you are eating every meal with people. But it can be a phone call. It can be constant text message. 

 

I'm living a season of life away. I'm taking a minute of a sabbatical, if you will. I have moved away, removed myself so that I can reset routine. But what happens is now I'm alone, and I'm not with my people. But I'm in a text thread with my people, and we are constantly having conversation. And I have felt closer to them in this season than I was physically present with them in the season prior because we are making an intentional effort to daily talk and daily commune about life, about things. [00:21:43] "Hey, I really need prayer for this today. God really showed me this about my heart. I really need prayer in this area." 

 

But it could be as simple as, oh, we had a kickball game tonight, and I scored two goals, and it was just so fun. Community spans the breadth of life. And incorporating Jesus into that gives us this depth in community that we can't reach without Him.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:22:14] <music>

 

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

 

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

 

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. 

 

To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

 

[00:23:43] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: As we consider examples of hospitality in the Bible, will you teach us what Peter's mom reveals to us about a heart for hospitality?

 

Abby Turner: I love this story so much. If you haven't read this story in a long time, it's like four verses. It's not very long. But Jesus and Peter go into Peter's mother-in-law's house, and his mother-in-law is sick in the back. I can only imagine without Advil or Tylenol or any medication, I'm sure she was really sick. Jesus goes back as this ultimate physician and says, "Hey, you're healed." 

 

Scripture doesn't say that she rolled her eyes at Peter and said, "I can't believe you brought Jesus into my home while I'm sick." It says she immediately starts serving. 

 

Now, there are two things that I would point out in this passage. One, she immediately starts serving, so there was no grumbling or complaining. There was no just kind of shuffling of feet. [00:24:43] I mean, it says she popped out of bed and she went to serve. And I love that heart. 

 

How can we be so ready to serve people that we immediately do it, no matter what the circumstance or situation? That should be our heart. That should be our kind of guidepost. That's what I'm aiming for. And I hope that I can get there. That is my prayer for all of us. And through The Living Table, I hope that I've equipped you in some small way to be encouraged that we can immediately start serving people when we see that they need our hospitality. 

 

The second point I would make about this is that you can't immediately start serving if you haven't prepared to serve in the first place. She was prepared. Which means she probably didn't have fig jam and focaccia bread just hanging out. But she probably had cleaned off her table. Her home was in some type of way so that she could serve. That's how we should live life. [00:25:46] 

 

Now, practically, what does that look like? Clean off your table. If your table has laundry on it, if it has bills on it, come on. I know because I'm there right now. Mine has my jean jacket. It has a water bottle. It has my purse on it. Those things need to be taken off of the table. We need to be ready to serve immediately when someone knocks on our door. We need to be in a posture of obedience so when Jesus says, invite this person over, that we can invite them over. And it's not, Okay, well, my house is a wreck. I don't have dishes ready. You don't have a list of excuses, you can immediately start to serve. You can have the heart of hospitality so that it will bring you closer to the character of God so you can experience Jesus in a new and deeper way with your community.

 

Laura Dugger: One of the ways that you've personally served is described in this intriguing section of your cookbook that's entitled The Kids Table. [00:26:46] So will you tell me a little bit more about your experience mentoring eighth-grade girls?

 

Abby Turner: Yes. Okay, so serving in the youth or the students was never on my radar. I'm hospitality, and so I'm like a greeter. You know, like I'm at the welcome desk. But I really had a tug on my heart a couple of years ago that I needed to serve in youth. 

 

Actually, it wasn't just a tug on my heart. The youth pastor, the student pastor actually came up to me and said, I" think you'd be really great. God's put you on my heart. I need you to come." And praise God for those people because I don't know that I would have gone into students had he not directly come and said, "I think you need to pray about this because God has put you on my heart to do this." 

 

So he needed someone for eighth-grade girls. I was like, "I have no idea what eighth-grade girls think or do or say or are into." [00:27:40] And he was like, "No, I just need you to love them." Eighth grade is like this awkward in-between phase where you're not completely grown up, you're still kind of like in junior high. You're figuring yourself out. You don't really have an idea of who you are. You're developing that. 

 

And so I got to spend a season with these girls and really walk through identifying who they are and who they want to become and who they are in Christ. So one of the recipes in The Kids Table is this kitchen sink trail mix. And I call it kitchen sink because it just has everything in it. 

 

I think that goes back to scripture where it says the body is made up of unique parts. And these eighth-grade girls were all very unique. They're not the same. I had some that were really into athletics and some that were really into gaming and some that were really into Harry Potter and reading and were uber into books. [00:28:42] 

 

I use this as an example of how we're all different, but when we come together, we make something that is so good. And you need the chocolate Teddy Graham and you need the wasabi pea and you need the saltiness and the butteriness of the popcorn to make this unique flavor that you just can't get enough of. 

 

And that's how God looks at and wants the church to be. That's how he wants his community to be. We don't all need to be the same. We need to identify the uniqueness of each other and look at that as the blessing.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that lesson that you taught them because you invited each of them to show up with their own snack and then you dump it all together to make this kitchen sink trail mix. And it's photographed so beautifully. I thought it was such a great word picture of that scripture in 1 Corinthians 12 just coming to life. [00:29:43] 

 

I think in general, Abby, you've just given us the inspiration to begin serving, to begin opening our home to hospitality. But now let's transition to a time of unpacking how we can actually do this. So what is your formula for empowering people to overcome their insecurities in the kitchen and to truly invest in opening their homes? 

 

Abby Turner: So a couple of things that I hear over and over again from people of why they don't show hospitality or why they're not inviting people in, one, I hear this fear of rejection of, "People don't want to come to my house. People are gonna say no. Why would they want to come? They're busy. They've got kids." You name it. That's the excuse. It's kind of wrapped up in this "I don't want to be rejected".

 

What I would say to that is God did not create us as people to be alone. He did not create us as people for isolation. He created us to want and desire and love other people and being around other people. [00:30:44] 

 

There are some profound psychologists and neuroscientists out there that have even discovered that our brain functions at a higher level when we are around other people. And so I just think that that is God and His just kind of creativity and saying like, Yeah, I created you to be with others.

 

So if you think that you desire to be around others and you're the only person that desires that, you're fooling yourself. Because I guarantee that other people, your friends, your family, your maybe acquaintances that you know at work or in the PTA or in at your tennis, you know, wherever you are, those people are thinking the same thing you are. "Man, I just wish I had someone to eat dinner with tonight."

 

I can't tell you how many times I've sat in my apartment and said, "Man, I really wish I could go to this restaurant with someone tonight, but I guess I'll just order it out." And then a couple of days later, I'm talking to a friend and she's like, "Oh, I wasn't doing anything Tuesday night. Girl, you should have called me." [00:31:49] I was like, "Well, I almost did but I didn't want you to say no." Like, no, that's the point. 

 

We need to be set. We need to be opening and extending the invitation. If someone says no, they're usually a couple of reasons. One, they already have something. I'm the queen of spontaneity. And so a lot of times when I ask people, it's like, Hey, do you want to go to dinner like in 15 minutes? And they're like, "Okay, well, I've already planned the next 15 minutes of my life." 

 

So I have to remember that sometimes people plan out a little bit further in advance. So they, one, already have something planned. Or two, meet them where they are. That's what Jesus did.  He met people where they were. He went to the well to talk to the one. He didn't invite the woman into a house, He went to the well to meet the woman. So sometimes maybe it's, "Hey, let's go grab coffee." Build the relationship outside the home so that you can bring them in. [00:32:40] 

 

And then the second thing that I always hear is, "I can't cook." I think that's where The Living Table comes in. I want to encourage people that even if you can't cook and these recipes maybe these recipes are even more advanced than you feel comfortable for, which I don't feel like they're super advanced. And I'm not a chef or a cook. I want you to think of me as like a friend bringing you just kind of some simple easy go-to recipes.

 

But I also want to encourage people that there are ways that we can lean into our grocery stores, that there are things that they're doing for us. I mean, the frozen aisle, the frozen pizzas now are like almost gourmet. I mean, lean into that. You don't have to start from scratch. Don't let that be the expectation. I want you to, you know, be empowered to pick something up at the grocery store and just have it at your house. 

 

So those are kind of the two things that I hear is like, I don't want people to say no and then I can't do it. And both of those things tell me that the enemy is trying to creep in and keep you isolated. He doesn't want you building community and we've got to fight that. [00:33:47] 

 

Laura Dugger: It's a good word.

 

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How do you creatively add generosity and elements of surprise to keep this process fun?

 

Abby Turner: You know what I think it's always praying through, God, what are those divine appointments? Who are those people that you want at my table? I love having a mix of people. It's not always the same. You know, I have, as we all do, different groups of people for different things that I'm involved in. [00:34:46] And when you mix all of these groups together, it's really interesting how relationships are formed, where conversation goes.

 

I also think that we can get really intimidated by, okay, well, I want to bring people to my table and then you have really good intentions of I want this to be really deep conversation. So, how do I make that happen? You don't have to make any of that happen. You just have to bring them to the table. 

 

I think that's what's so cool about Jesus is that all we have to do is be obedient and bringing people to the table and God's gonna make whatever needs to happen, whatever conversation needs to occur, He's gonna bring that conversation up. We don't have to worry about anything like that. We just have to show up. And we have to be prepared to let God work. 

 

So praying through who are those divine appointments, who are those people that I need in my home, who are those people that I need to go extend? You know, I had a friend that popped in my head the other day and I'm in a different city than she is, so I sent her a box, like a care package of goodies and it showed up. [00:35:52] 

 

And I had no idea what day was gonna show up, I had no idea kind of what she was going through but Jesus put her on my heart. She called me and said, I can't tell you how much. It was like a soup and kind of roll kit. And she was like, "I can't tell you how much this meal meant to me that it just kind of showed up on my doorstep after one of the hardest weeks of work, my kids are going crazy, my mom is in the hospital and I didn't know what we were gonna do for dinner and then this box shows up. What a blessing." 

 

I didn't have to make that meal. I just ordered the meal and sent it to her and it blessed her. We have to put ourselves in this constant posture of obedience so that we can just be open for what God's tugging on our hearts, what God's putting in our hearts in our minds so that He can then bless us, bless others through us. That's the purpose of hospitality. That's the purpose of community. That's the purpose of why we're here. [00:36:51] 

 

Laura Dugger: What an incredible way to meet such a practical need. We all have the need to eat and drink and we all want to do that probably multiple times daily. So it's always an open invitation. There's one other story that's always struck me. You say it was just a small gesture. But can you elaborate on the experience of taking the orange Julius to someone else with just a little extra thrown in?

 

Abby Turner: That orange Julius was so, so easy to make. One of my very, very best friends is not a Christian and she is always struggling with the dichotomy of, "Okay, I really, really want this that you have. What is it? I want this." And it's like it's Jesus. So showing her by showing up is "Oh, that's Jesus." 

 

So I've seen over the last three or four years her open her heart, the Spirit begin to work and to plant seeds of hope and joy in her life because of little things of just showing up for her, being there for her. [00:38:05] I tell the story all the time about she has three little boys. And so she's always crazy and I'm single. So she's always running every which way and she loves to hang out with, you know, her friends, but she can't ever because she's got three kids.

 

So I'm always going over to her house. I'm always going over to her house and making food and kind of playing with her kids and teaching them how to make food in the kitchen. And it's showing up, being the hands and feet of Jesus, being where people are, meeting them where they are. That is so important. 

 

And sometimes it's an overlooked piece of hospitality because we always think hospitality is bringing people into your house, it's having them at your table. But Jesus didn't have a house. Jesus didn't have a table. He was always going into other people's house. In fact, one of His most famous miracles was actually a potluck. 

 

So if we really look at feeding of the 5,000 and we look at the practicality of that, invite people over and say, bring your own food. [00:39:06] It's all about the community and it's all about bringing people together, meeting them where they are. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a perfect master chef meal, five-star meal. It can be bring your own food potluck. It can be meeting someone where they're at. It's just as simple like, hey, I had this two-dollar plastic jug from Target that I got. I filled it up with some Orange Julius and I brought it over on a hot day because I know that you're pregnant and you need a little pick-me-up.

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you share that because it cost you two dollars for that pitcher but there is such an astonishment from the recipient of that. And like you said, it's just a way to be Jesus to others.

 

Abby Turner: Absolutely.

 

Laura Dugger: Abby, you've clearly had a lot of experience with all of this. So what are some of your most? practical steps for us to begin so that we can be prepared both physically and spiritually to host?

 

Abby Turner: There are two things. [00:40:06] I've said one of them. One of them is just clear the table off. Always be ready. I know that the table is currently functioning as office and school and it has a lot of different uses in our lives right now. But clean off the table and put ourselves in a posture of obedience, whether that's kind of stack your pantry and your fridge, stash it with things that you know you're going to be using.

 

So it's the beginning of the year, you know what kind of items? Probably lots of soups, probably some breads to go with the soups. Make sure you're stacked up on that because this is the time for those types of meals. 

 

But in the fall, it's game time. I'm in a college town. A lot of times I have these unexpected guests that stay over from the game the night before. So they stay over and I need a lot of breakfast items. So in the fall I tend to carry a lot more cinnamon rolls and sausage roll-ups and all of those things. A lot of them are frozen so they can just stay longer in my fridge if I don't need them. [00:41:04] We go week on week, but I'm always prepared.

 

And so in the different seasons of life in the different seasons of the year, we might keep different things in our pantry, in our fridge. So always put yourself in that posture of obedience. Number one, clean off the table and kind of stash your pantry and your fridge. 

 

Number two, pray specifically for divine appointments. Pray for just those catches on your heart that the Lord will put and say you need to reach out to this person, you need to serve this person. You need to take a meal to this person. You might not know why but God does. When we are preparing ourselves, when we are putting ourselves in this posture of obedience, that's when we really open ourselves up to allow God to really work.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that both-and answer. That both that spiritual part and connecting with the Lord, that's going to fuel everything, and your practical application to help us follow through to do this. [00:42:06] So not only cleaning the table but you have a section on page 14 about setting the table. I won't go through all of these But just one suggestion that you give is to start collecting wooden boards. You say that they're fun and versatile and they can be used in plating serving and prepping. 

 

Some of your recipes even go along with that. Like an avocado toast bar that I had never thought of before. So I can't recommend this cookbook enough. It's inspiration for all of us to get started. You also have a lot to add online. So, Abby, where would you direct us to find and follow you online?

 

Abbey Turner: So coming right out of that, I know that I do give in that hosting handbook a lot of tips and tricks, but I have a 52 Weeks of Mastering the Kitchen. Every week you're gonna get an email that just gives you some practical tips. Sometimes it's a recipe. Sometimes it's just tips and tricks. Make sure you have this in your pantry or these are my tried-and-true favorites. [00:43:03] 

 

So you can sign up for that over on atabletopaffair.com. It should be the first little pop-up that comes up and you can put your email in and those emails will come straight to your Inbox week on week. I'll also send out emails just about, hey, these are my favorite meals going into pumpkin season or these are my favorite meals going in to the Easter season. We've got Valentine's Day and Mardi Gras coming up so I'm pumped for those. 

 

But I am also over on Instagram. I do a fun little Sunday supper club on Sunday nights. It's around 9 p.m. ish Central time. We call it ish because... well, I call it ish because I run on Turner time which means it could be 5 or 10 minutes early or 5 or 10 minutes late and that's still around 9 p.m. 

 

Anyway, it's 20 minutes. It's always over on Instagram TV if you miss it on Sunday nights. But it really I just go through 20 minutes of a really easy recipe. Some recipes are out of the cookbook, some recipes are just recipes that I have made that are just super easy. [00:44:06] 

 

And then sometimes I just put a kind of question box out there the week before and say, What do you want to know about? Whether it's easy meals or lunches or transitioning of seasons and flavors and all that. So super fun. 

 

A tabletop affair on Instagram, A Tabletop Affair online. Then of course, I'm on Pinterest and Facebook if you're on those platforms as well. But yeah, 52 Weeks of Mastering the Kitchen, definitely a newsletter series. You do not want to miss.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. Abby, you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Abby Turner: I Think my savvy sauce for others would absolutely be go buy The Living Table. I'm just kidding. No, find some tried-and-true recipes that you know how to make that you feel comfortable making and confident making and use those as kind of the first steps to bringing people in. 

 

Open your door, invite someone in. It doesn't have to be a group of people. The first the first night I ever invited someone over for a meal, it was one person and the meal was so bad. But God turned that around. He used that as a stepping stone and said, Okay, one person will turn into three, three will turn into five, five will turn into a Bible study. [00:45:32] 

 

And I had to learn really fast. God was like, okay, the next meal we're gonna make and the next meal you're gonna make and the next meal you're gonna make. So He developed, He started me. He walked with me in that but I had to be obedient. And so practical advice, put yourself in that posture of obedience, clean off the table, invite someone in, and find some tried-and-true recipes. Just a couple that are really easy that you feel confident making. So you can use food as the conduit to get you to the table to experience Jesus.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Abby, you are delightful to spend time with and I'm so humbled by your offering of your time and talents to encourage other people of all ages about these biblical truths, about the table and hospitality. So I'm very grateful for you, Abby. You're a blast to spend time with. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

 

Abby Turner: Well, thank you so much. Being a 32-year-old single sometimes it can look a lot different than a mom that has three or four kids or even a grandma that is a widow. So what I found with The Living Table is that we all come around that table the same way. And we can all experience Jesus in different ways. But it's getting to the table that's the important part. [00:46:50] So I hope that's what everyone heard today and is encouraged and empowered to kind of get out of the kitchen into the table a little bit quicker a little bit faster so that we can all be with Jesus

 

Laura Dugger: Amen. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:47:52] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:48:52] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:49:53] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

167. Pursuing Health in Four Key Areas with Debra Fileta

 

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2 (NIV)

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What are ways to pursue health holistically, including physically in our bodies, mentally in our thought life, emotionally in our feelings, and spiritually in our souls?

2. What are a few of your tips to enhance our closest relationships? 

3. How would you describe the "why" for pursuing health in all these areas?

 

Debra K. Fileta is a Licensed Professional Counselor specializing in Relationship, Sex, Dating, and Marriage issues. She is a passionate author and national speaker who travels across the country spreading the message that healthy people make healthy relationships. Her work has been featured by numerous media outlets from national television to church ministries such as Saddleback Church, FreshLife Church, Focus on the Family, ChristianMingle.com, The 700 Club, NGEN Radio, KLOVE, and many more. She, her husband, and three children live in Lancaster, PA.

 

Debra is a regular contributor to publications such as Relevant Magazine and Crosswalk.com, with well over 250 articles across the web about love, marriage, dating, sex, and relationships. Her articles have also been featured in magazines and websites such as Today’s Christian Woman, Verily Magazine, Anne Voskamp blog, Proverbs 31 Woman, IAmSecond.com, ChurchLeaders.com, Converge Magazine, Charisma Magazine, Christianity Today, and many others.

 

She’s also the creator of the popular relationship advice blog, www.TrueLoveDates.com as well as the Love + Relationships Podcast reaching millions of people each year with topics of love, sex, marriage, relationships and emotional and mental health. Connect with her on Facebook or Instagram to get your dating questions answered and to learn more!

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

 

Are You Really OK?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com. 

I hope you can trust me, this is an episode you don't want to miss. Debra Fileta is a counselor, podcaster, and best-selling author, and she is my knowledgeable guest today. Consider this your one-stop shop for actionable steps to implement as you pursue a more fulfilling life. 

Debra is going to teach us helpful lessons from a recent best-selling book of hers entitled, Are You Really Okay?

Here's our chat. [00:01:18] 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Debra. 

Debra Fileta: Thank you so much for having me.

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just first start by telling us more about yourself and the work that you get to do?

Debra Fileta: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a homeschooling mom of four kids. That always surprises people. My youngest is eight months, and my oldest is 10. I'm also a licensed professional counselor, and I've written five books. I just love being able to teach the message that healthy people make healthy relationships. Sometimes we focus on the healthy people part, other times we focus on the healthy relationship part, but they really just go hand in hand.

Laura Dugger: I think one of your most quoted lines is that "just because we're a Christian does not mean that we're healthy."

Debra Fileta: Yes. Yeah, that is definitely something I say a lot. I think if you're the kind of person that resonates with that statement, then you're my kind of people. [00:02:22] 

Laura Dugger: Well, can you elaborate? How do you view our health holistically as a four-legged chair?

Debra Fileta: When we look at health, I think a lot of times Christians tend to zoom in on spiritual health, all the while neglecting all the other components of health. But as a counselor, I know that health is not just focusing on spiritual health. 

In fact, Scripture points us to the same thing. When Jesus' disciples asked Him, What's the greatest commandment? He said to them, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And when I look at that, I see a deliberate outline that Jesus gave us of what it looks like to love Him with our heart, which represents our emotional health; soul, our spiritual health; mind, our mental health; and strength, our physical health.

When I look at health, I'm not just looking at your spiritual health. I'm looking at all the other components: How you're doing mentally and emotionally and physically. [00:03:23] And oftentimes, those are the areas that really get neglected, specifically in the Big C Church.

Laura Dugger: That Scripture from Mark definitely requires us to holistically worship and come to God with every layer of our being. And I just love that you teach loving God and loving yourself are not mutually exclusive.

Debra Fileta: That passage goes on to say, "The next commandment is this: Love your neighbor as you love yourself." I think a lot of times we focus on the "love your neighbor" piece. But Jesus could have said love your neighbor more than yourself or love your neighbor, don't love yourself. But He actually just said it, love your neighbor as you love yourself. I think there's power there. When we love ourselves, we are loving who God created us to be, we are loving God's workmanship. And I think there's something really beautiful to the process of seeing ourselves as something valuable because of who we are in Christ. [00:04:29] 

When we value ourselves, we begin to treat ourselves in a positive way. We don't neglect ourselves. We learn to fill ourselves up. And I think out of the overflow of a healthy person, we can then love the people that God has placed in our life even better than when we're not feeling full, when we're feeling empty.

Laura Dugger: Just going back to that four-legged chair analogy, I'd love to unpack each of these legs a little bit more fully. You've mentioned them, but I'd love to cover pursuing health holistically, which includes physically in our bodies, mentally in our thought life, emotionally in our feelings, and spiritually in our souls. So let's begin with this. How does pursuing physical health benefit us in all other areas as well? 

Debra Fileta: Well, you know, science shows us that there is a body-mind connection that cannot be underestimated. [00:05:31] When we're fit physically, when we're focused on our health, it impacts the rest of our bodies, including our mind, including our brain. I mean, brain function is a huge part to the rest of the components of health, our emotional health, our mental health.

So things such as diet, exercise, sleep, even such as boundaries — I spend a whole chapter talking just about boundaries because I think boundaries really protect our physical health — they keep us from burnout.

There was a study where people who walked 20 minutes a day and they were diagnosed with clinical depression... they kind of put them in two different groups. They took a group that had clinical depression and they had them walk for 20 minutes and then a group with clinical depression and they just had them not walk for that period of time. 

Fascinatingly enough, the people who were active and walking had a decrease in symptoms of depression. And that's because physical fitness and physical exercise releases these feel-good chemicals that we call serotonin and dopamine. [00:06:38] And those neurochemicals are what help us stabilize our mood, stabilize our thought life, our anxiety, our depression. So it just goes to show you the power of focusing on our physical health as part of the equation of being healthy people overall.

Laura Dugger: Wow. I love that you bring that one to mind, even the specific 20 minutes. I think it's crazy because this morning... I now go on a walk every day and have for about a year and a half. And I keep a list on my phone, I call them my anchors, but things that make it like an exceptionally great day. What are little repeatable habits or behaviors?

I've been doing this walk consistently, but I was thinking even on days when time is crunched in the morning or the kids have something extra in addition to school, just 20 minutes, I've noticed, is the time for me that makes it so much better. So thank you for sharing some of the reasons. [00:07:39] 

Debra Fileta: There you go. You were following science and you didn't even know it.

Laura Dugger: I also want to just read a little glimpse of your book about another physical health benefit. So here's a quote from you. It says, "A lack of sleep or disruption of sleep can severely impact a person's emotional well-being and can be an early sign that something is going on underneath the surface. If you find yourself struggling more than usual emotionally, it's important to recognize that the lack of sleep hygiene could be a potential trigger. So often, sleep and emotional struggles go hand in hand, and dealing with one often brings stability to the other." 

I just think, Debra, that we undervalue sleep's impact on our health. So can you elaborate on that quote of yours and teach us a little bit more?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. You know, sleep is really the reset for your body. It's the time when your body gets recharged. [00:08:39] When you're struggling with sleep, there's two things that are usually at play. Number one, a lack of sleep hygiene. When I talk about sleep hygiene, even my editor in the book was like, "Is that a real word?" 

Like we hear about hygiene as in like showering and brushing your teeth and taking care of yourself, but there's actually a term called sleep hygiene. And that's about the rituals and rhythms and patterns that you have that help you sleep. You know, you can condition your body to get sleepy based on the things that you do before bedtime.

In Are You Really Okay?, I talk about things such as decreasing screen time or dimming the lights or having a certain ritual that you do before bed. All of these things signal your body, your parasympathetic system. That's the system that's in charge of calming you down, getting you relaxed, decreasing your heart rate, getting you ready to rest. It signals your parasympathetic system that it's time to rest. [00:09:41] 

And so sometimes not having good sleep is simply a lack of sleep hygiene. Like you haven't prioritized sleep. But sometimes a lack of good sleep points to some emotional struggles that maybe you haven't addressed. 

Have you ever had one of those nights where you can't sleep because you're just anxious about something? You're just thinking about this thing over and over again. Maybe it's something you have to do the next day, something you're anticipating. It's one thing when that happens, you know, one night, maybe there's a big thing coming up the next day. But if you begin to see that as a pattern in your life where you can't seem to shut down, oftentimes that indicates there's something going on underneath the surface emotionally. Maybe some anxiety, maybe some depression, maybe something that you haven't addressed. 

So sleep can really be our signal to how we're doing emotionally. And I think it's important to be in tune to how we're sleeping. 

Laura Dugger: We're just giving little tastes of each of these because the book goes into so much more detail. [00:10:43] But if we move to the leg of the chair, that's the mental part with our cognitive functioning or our thoughts. Can you elaborate on how thoughts impact other areas of our health and our life?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Scientists used to believe that when you felt bad, you started having negative thoughts. So maybe you woke up feeling depressed, and then you started having depressive thoughts, and it kind of just spiraled. 

But the most recent research shows us that it starts with a thought. Thoughts lead to feelings, which then lead to our behaviors. So maybe you have an underlying thought, feeling like you're not good enough. "Oh, I'm never going to get this done. I'm just not good enough for this." Well, all of a sudden, then that thought leads to feelings. Feelings of frustration, feelings of disappointment, feelings of insecurity. And then you act out of those feelings, your behaviors that you do. [00:11:44] 

Maybe you interact with somebody, and you're feeling insecure, and you don't speak up like you should. All of that stems from your underlying thoughts. 

So a huge part of mental health is taking inventory of the health of your thought life and getting to the root of where some of those negative thoughts come from. In Are You Really Okay? I list out what I call these negative filters. They're called cognitive distortions. And they're unhealthy ways of thinking that many of us kind of pick up throughout life without even realizing that we're doing it. 

So when I talk about mental health, I kind of want to divide it into two components. One of them is our thought life, but the other component is our experiences. And for many people, they've been through hard things like trauma. Trauma begins to write over your healthy thinking with unhealthy thoughts. For many people, they've been through something in the past, and they think, "Well, it's in the past. The past is in the past. Let's just move forward." [00:12:44] 

But they don't realize that when you don't deal with those things from the past, they can begin impacting how you act and think and feel in the present. And all of that lumped together is really what I would call our mental health.

Laura Dugger: I love how you explain this because all of these areas overlap. And so spiritually speaking, when we look at the Bible, and it talks about renewing our mind, and it gives so much time devoted to our thought life and what to do with our thoughts. It reminds me of a previous guest, Ken Baugh, and how he was elaborating that we can't really control our emotions. But with our free will that God gives us, He gives us tools to renew our mind, like you're saying, starting with our thoughts. And so this is very biblically based. And I love the science mixed in as well.

Debra Fileta: It is. It is. In counseling, we call it the process of training your thoughts. It's a big, important piece of therapy. We call it cognitive behavioral therapy. [00:13:48] When you come see me in my office, I'm going to help you rewire your thoughts, retrain how you think, get to the root of it. But really, when we look at Romans 12, God calls us to renew our minds and transform our thinking. God thought of this long ago. We're just now catching up. We're just now learning. "Oh, wait, this really does work. This really does impact our mental health and then our spiritual health, our emotional health." They're all kind of linked. Like you said, it's kind of four legs to a chair. It's this holistic process of healing. When you pass through one, it leads you to the next. 

So what I really want people to understand though, is that these things don't just happen with time. They happen with intentionality. You're not just going to become emotionally and mentally healthy just because you've become a Christian. You have to work at these things. 

When we come to Jesus, all of a sudden our blood pressure isn't exactly right, our cholesterol levels don't just bounce back to exactly what they need to be. Like we don't magically become physically fit when we come to Jesus, and we wouldn't even expect that. [00:15:01] But many of us in the faith, many of us who are walking with Jesus, make the assumption that all of a sudden those things in our past are gone.

All of a sudden those negative ways of thinking are gone. But that's not how it works. The process of sanctification means that Jesus is helping us heal all of these areas one step at a time. So it really requires us to be intentional as we're looking at all these components of health.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick and Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi Family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.

If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. [00:16:03] This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. 

They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "welcome to Sam Leman's". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. 

Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick and Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for "Sam Leman Eureka". You can also call them at (309)467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

Laura Dugger: When it comes to getting healthier mentally with our thought life, one practical application is called cognitive restructuring. [00:17:04] But just to demystify this part of therapy, will you explain what this is and how it can help?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Cognitive restructuring is really identifying the old negative patterns of thinking and then replacing them with new ones. The thing about your thoughts is they are always going to do what's easiest. So if you've had a pattern of negative thinking your whole life, guess what, that's going to be the easiest thought process for you. It's going to require some work and some intent to identify that negative thought and say, "Wait a second, that happened so automatically. I'm just so used to thinking that way, but now I recognize it and I'm going to replace it with the truth. I'm not going to allow myself to think that negative thought about myself because it's not the truth. Here's the truth. Here's what God says. Here is the truth of who I am in Christ." [00:18:01] 

And we begin to replace those old familiar thoughts with new healthy thoughts. And that takes some work but we call that cognitive restructuring. And really what it means is learning to renew our mind. But we can't do that until we start to recognize the old patterns, the familiar patterns. 

Have you ever gotten into the car? I do this all the time. I have young kids. They have their kid's music playing all the time in the background. And sometimes I go somewhere by myself and I turn on the car and all of a sudden their kid's music is playing, but I don't even notice it because I'm so used to hearing it that it's just kind of like the norm. 

So I drive for an hour or two... I'm running errands. I'm going to Target, I'm going to the grocery store and an hour or two later, I'm like, wait a second. Why am I listening to kids' songs? I could be listening to anything I want. That's just kind of an example of how our thought process works. 

Sometimes we're so used to the old ways of thinking that we don't even recognize them. [00:19:03] So it takes us to stop and take the time and energy and effort and sometimes help of a professional counselor to begin recognizing those unhealthy thoughts so that we can begin replacing them with truth.

Laura Dugger: Sometimes this is best seen in examples. So just to personalize this a little bit, could you give us an abbreviated account of your trip to Egypt, both with the dark side and the light side for contrasting how this cognitive restructuring can play out?

Debra Fileta: Yeah, I always talk about how we have a tendency to kind of see life either in a negative lens or a positive lens, even when they're both true. The question is, which side do I focus on more? In November of 2019, we took our kids to this big family trip to Egypt. It was this 12 hours on the plane. 

In Are You Really Okay? I kind of summarized that trip in two lenses. The first lens I'm focusing on the negative. [00:20:05] One of my sons gets motion sick and here we are on a 12-hour plane ride with him. Not only that, but you get to Egypt and it's dusty and dirty and you can only eat certain foods so that you don't get sick. The traffic is crazy. My 5-year-old almost got hit by a car at one point because there's just no rhyme or reason to the traffic. It's so hot and dusty and humid. 

You can see your trip through the lens of the negative. And all of those things that I just said are true. But you can also see it through the lens of the positive. The positive was my son who gets motion-sick was able to take some medication and got through the whole flight and did really well. We got there, it's a brand new world with new experiences, new foods. The sun is shining all the time. It never rains.

So for the kids to experience the culture, get to see the pyramids, go to the museums, ride a camel, all of these different things that we got to experience as a family, it was just a trip of a lifetime. [00:21:13] We had so much fun. 

Both of those stories are 100% truth. But the question is, which side do I tend to focus on? And for each of us, our lives have the dark side and the bright side. And each of the sides are 100% truth. But we have the power to decide which side we want to focus on and which side we want to live out of. And part of training our mind and our thoughts is learning to live out of the truth of who we are.

Laura Dugger: Goodness, Debra, that is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. When we move to that third leg now, you teach that ignoring our emotions doesn't make us spiritual, it actually makes us unhealthy. So can you give a few examples from scripture of emotionally healthy role models? 

Debra Fileta: Yeah. When we talk about emotional health, I think we have to realize that emotions are not just a gender thing. [00:22:12] I think sometimes we assume that women are more emotional than men. But the truth is, when we look at scripture, we get the exact opposite. We see that men and women are just as emotional. 

In fact, two men in scripture who were very in tune to how they felt were Jesus, number one. I did a deep dive study into Jesus in the section of emotional health and specifically the emotions of Jesus. Biblical scholars have identified over 39 different emotions that Jesus experienced and expressed just through scripture. And we know that there's more than that because according to scripture, if all the things about Jesus' life were written down, it wouldn't fit into all the books in the world. So we know there's so much more to Him than we can even see. 

But one thing that we definitely see is his emotional awareness. He was compassionate. He was sad. He cried. He grieved. He was in agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. [00:23:12] If you think, well, Jesus was emotional and He handles his emotions well because He's God, well, let me just point you to another man, David, a man after God's own heart. The Psalms are full of the emotions that David experienced.

Each and every one of us has underlying emotions. Maybe you haven't learned to express them or identify them. Maybe you come from a family where you didn't really talk about emotions and you kind of stuffed them. But one thing is going to happen. When we don't deal with our emotions in a healthy way, they will find the point of least resistance because emotions are kind of like a volcano. There's all of this pressure building underneath the surface.

And just like a volcano, when the pressure gets too much, when it gets too high, it will find the point of least resistance and come up through an emotional explosion. Sometimes that explosion looks like anger issues, anxiety, depression, addictions, maybe relationship issues. [00:24:15] You know, maybe we have conflict with our spouse or tension or issues that come up in our life.

But I think the underlying issue is, have I identified what's going on underneath the surface? Have I dealt with it in a healthy way? Or do I just continue to ignore it, to stuff it, and to think that is the way that God wants me to handle my emotions? But again, when we look at scripture, Jesus offers us a beautiful model of what it looks like to handle our emotions in a healthy way.

Laura Dugger: You also recommend getting a journal. How would that tie into pouring into our own emotional well-being?

Debra Fileta: Well, emotionally healthy people do three things. Number one, they can identify their emotions. They can name them. You know, like, this is what I'm actually feeling. It's not just I feel good or I don't feel good. But what am I actually feeling? I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling embarrassed. I'm feeling insecure. [00:25:16] I'm feeling hurt. I'm feeling overwhelmed. Identify those things that are going on underneath the surface.

Number two, emotionally healthy people express their emotions. I give you an entire journaling activity. Actually, Are You Really Okay?, as you've probably noticed, Laura, is not just one of those books you read. It's one of those books you work through because at the end of each chapter, there are journaling prompts, activities, homework assignments to help you check in on your health in each of these areas. 

And in emotional health, one of the things I have you do is keep an emotional journal. We call it expressive journaling. But really the point is to get your emotions out on paper. Get them in front of you. Begin to express them. Because just expressing them begins to help them lose their power, help take away some of that underlying pressure. 

So healthy people express their emotions. And then lastly, healthy people question their emotions because though our feelings are all real, we always feel real feelings, but that doesn't mean they're always true. [00:26:24] You might feel insecure and not good enough, but that doesn't mean it's the truth. Learning to question our feelings and align them to God's truth is a really important part of being emotionally healthy people as well.

Laura Dugger: You also write, emotional health and wellbeing are often influenced by our closest relationships. It's important to remember that and ask yourself how your closest relationships and interactions have influenced you. So, Debra, do you have a couple of practical tips for all of us to enhance our closest relationships?

Debra Fileta: I think it's really important to first take inventory of the relationships that we have in our life, especially the people who are closest to us. Look at the five people that are closest to you in your life and think about the type of engagements you have with them. Are you able to express your emotions freely and share what you're really feeling and experiencing? [00:27:24] Or is it a relationship where you kind of feel like you have to hide some of those things and not really be authentic? 

Because the type of relationships you're engaging in currently, in the present are shaping you. Not only that, but the relationships you've experienced in the past have shaped you. When you look at your emotional health and your journey toward health, so much of who you are today has to do with where you've come from. 

So many of the problems you face in the present are oftentimes rooted in the pain, wounds, experiences you've had in your past. And a lot of times that's our family of origin, the people who've raised us, how they taught us to handle our emotions or to express our feelings or to deal with the things that we're going through.

So I think first and foremost, it's really important to kind of take inventory of the people in your life today and ask yourself, are they helping me become healthier or are they holding me back? As we kind of begin to process those next steps in our relationships. [00:28:26] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's such a great reminder just to be deliberate about who we're surrounding ourselves with because it does impact a lot of areas of our life. 

Thanks to our friend Joy, thesavvysauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1st titled "Articles". I hope you check out these new Savvy Snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy.

As that final part of the chair, the spiritual leg. Spiritually, let's just look again at Jesus as our model. How did you see Jesus setting limits and boundaries that filled up his soul in order for him to then be able to pour it out on others?

Debra Fileta: You know, Jesus is such a good example of taking care of His soul. [00:29:28] He took the time to say no. He set boundaries. Sometimes He said, It's not the time, you know, right now is not the time. Sometimes He went to rest. I love the story of Jesus going after a long day of ministry, getting on the boat with His disciples, and going and falling asleep on the boat because He just knew his body needed to rest.

We see Jesus eating. We see Jesus making the time to get away and be with the Father, to pray, to fill up. He really took care and nurtured His soul. I look at that and I think, you know, sometimes Christians think the word self-care is a selfish, bad word. But what it really means is taking the time to allow God to fill us up in order that we can then overflow that fullness into the lives of the people around us. 

I think there's a really important thing to be said of being full people who are overflowing into the lives of others rather than empty people, because empty people cannot love and serve in the way that God calls us to love and serve.[00:30:39] 

So if we really want to be effective with our families, with our ministry, with the things God has called us to, a big part of that starts by making sure that we are feeling full and setting boundaries to keep us in a healthy place.

Laura Dugger: Your book, like you mentioned, it's so interactive. And I really appreciated your questions. And one of them that you challenge us to ask ourselves is do we go to the Father to get filled? And if you can hang with me here for just a second, in my quiet time today with the Lord, this old truth somehow made more sense to me today. I think it's in John, is it John 15, where it's talking about abiding with Him. And then John 1, where it says, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

And so when you tie that into abiding, one way to abide and fill our souls and come to the Father is simply by reading scripture with Him. [00:31:42] And for some reason, that was just very profound to me today. So I wanted to share that.

Debra Fileta: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much to be said in those spiritual disciplines of reading God's word, spending time in prayer, and memorizing scripture. But I also think we have to start a couple steps before that in the "why". Why do I do what I do? Why am I reading scripture? Why am I praying?

Because if we're doing it with wrong motives because we're afraid of God or we feel like if we don't do it, He's not going to love us or we've got to fill some sort of spiritual checklist, then maybe we're doing those things, but we're not actually using them to fill us up. I think the key is getting to the why. Do I really do this because I want to spend time with Him? Do I want Him to fill me up? I want to increase and enhance my relationship with Him. I see Him as someone who is good and who is for me. [00:32:42] 

I talk about in the spiritual health chapter. Sometimes our view of God is actually tainted by the hurts we've had from the people who've represented Him in the past. Sometimes we see Him through the lens of people instead of seeing Him through the lens of Jesus and his word. When we change our beliefs about God and see Him for who He is, it makes the process of going to Him and spending time with him and praying so much more meaningful because it comes out of a place of positive connection with Him rather than a place of fear or shame or worry. I think it really fills us up all the more when we come to Him and our why is in the right place.

Laura Dugger: That is such great clarification to go one step deeper and ask why. As we even tie all of this conversation together, how would you describe the why for pursuing health in all of these areas? [00:33:49] 

Debra Fileta: You know, Jesus calls us to live life abundantly. And I think at the end of the day, when we're healthy people, not only can we live our life more abundantly, but then we can more abundantly and with more intent and power and purpose pour into the people that God has placed in our lives. We can be more effective when we are healthy.

Healthy people make healthy relationships. And when we begin to get healthy standing alone, it starts to impact every other relationship and ministry, our family, our marriage, our children. And we can just live out the calling that God has put on our life in such a much more effective way.

Laura Dugger: Wow. I could not agree more. But now just for fun and to make this a little bit more personal, how do you actually juggle homeschooling and working and pursuing your own health in all four of these areas? [00:34:54] 

Debra Fileta: Well, let me start by saying this. First and foremost, God's grace. I think God takes the little loaves and fish that I have and he multiplies it. I feel like he helps me accomplish so much more in an hour than I normally would be able to without his help. 

But secondly, I've really learned... and my husband and I are both on the same page. We call ourselves no people because one of our favorite words is no. Maybe that doesn't sound very Christian, but let me tell you this: we've learned that we can only do a few things well. And so we focus on just the few things that God has called us to and say no to everything else.

So there's a lot of other ministry opportunities or kids activities that they could be involved in or our activities that we could be involved in or even some of our hobbies. But in certain seasons, we have to say no to so many things just so that we can kind of streamline and be efficient and focus on the few things that God has called us to do and do those things really well. [00:36:02] 

When you look at my life and I think I talk about this in one of the chapters, all the different things that I say no to in order to be able to say yes to the few things that God has called me to. I think being able to say no, you realize that for people who struggle to say no and say yes to everything, they end up feeling like they're spread too thin. They end up feeling burnt out. They end up accidentally and unintentionally saying no to the things that matter.

Like maybe you say yes to that extra meeting, but you're saying no to having dinner with your family that night. Maybe you say yes to that early morning interview, but you're saying no to quiet time with the Lord that morning. So for every “yes” you say, there's a “no” built-in, but it's unintentional. It's passive. It's passive. And learning to kind of take ownership of that and set boundaries around your life is one of the things that has really been life-changing for me.

Laura Dugger: And I think that's a way that you're living out. [00:37:01] I'm just going to paraphrase that there's the scripture from the Old Testament that says, do not turn aside to the left or to the right, but walk in all the ways that the Lord has called you to. That sounds like exactly what you're doing and we're benefiting from all of your work and your wise yeses and no's. So if people want to learn more, Debra, where can they find and follow you online?

Debra Fileta: My favorite place is Instagram right now. So you can find me at Debra Fileta. I'm also on Facebook. And my website is a relationship advice blog for every age and stage, from singleness to dating to marriage. It's called truelovedates.com and you can find more information about me, my books, my resources, and counseling practice there as well.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in this episode's show notes. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Debra, what is your savvy sauce? [00:38:08] 

Debra Fileta: I'm going to go back to a phrase you heard me say earlier. Healthy people make healthy relationships. For me, it's really, especially in this season, 2021, I say is the year of healing. You know, 2020 might have been the year of exposing all the things, but 2020 is the year of healing. For me, I continue to look in. I continue to work on my own personal journey of anxiety or depression or identity and seek to get healthy, as healthy as I can standing alone, knowing that when I work on myself, it's not in vain and that it will impact every other relationship in my life, including how I relate to my husband, including how I relate to my kids, including how I do ministry. So it's the best place to start because it's the one where I actually have some semblance of control over myself.

Laura Dugger: Well, Debra, I admire your gentleness and authenticity and just the way that you daily live out the recommendations you suggest to others. [00:39:13] You are clearly a woman of integrity and you really have benefited all of us by sharing this knowledge today. So thank you very much for being my guest.

Debra Fileta: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:40:15] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:41:15] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:42:15] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

166. Journey from Empty to Well Nourished Soul with Gretchen Saffles

 

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. John 15:4

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Gretchen Saffles is passionate about encouraging and equipping women to drink deeply from the well of God’s Word and to find their identity and purpose in Christ. She is the founder of Well-Watered Women, an online ministry that reaches women worldwide with the hope of the gospel, and the author of The Well-Watered Woman: Rooted in Truth, Growing in Grace, Flourishing in Faith. She has written several Bible studies including Redefined: Defining Identity through the Mirror of God’s Word and Esther: The Fingerprints of God. She is also the creator of the Give Me Jesus quiet-time journal for women, a tool to help women study Scripture daily. On any given day you can find her with a cup of coffee in hand, her boys by her side, a message stirring in her soul, and a God-sized dream on her heart. Gretchen lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with her husband, Greg, and her two sons, Nolan and Haddon.

 

1. Will you share more about the pit that led you to a transformative encounter with Jesus in college?
2. How did God begin to pour out His grace on you and even allow you to begin sharing your story in what felt like the midst of living your story?
3. Which relationships have impacted your walk with the Lord that you also wrote about in your book?

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: Fruitful

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,600 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at MidwestShelters.com or visit them on Facebook. 

 

Gretchen Saffles is my guest today. She is the founder of Well-Watered Women, which equips women to be rooted deeply in God's Word. Now we get to hear her personal story of ways God has helped her up through storms in her life, and how He's given her delight through her obedience to Him. She also shares practical ways we can abide in Him and grow spiritually. 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Gretchen. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, can you just start us off by going a bit back and give us some context about your upbringing and your childhood dreams, and then eventually, a pit that led you to a transformative encounter with Jesus in college? [00:01:28] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. So I grew up in a Christian home in Texas and had parents who loved the Lord, who taught me the word, and I'm so grateful for that upbringing. 

 

When I was seven years old, the Lord called me to Himself and I gave my life to Jesus. And I remember just loving Jesus. He was my best friend. I would sing songs to Him, you know. It was like He was just always with me and I was always aware of Him. 

 

But as I grew older, we were always in the church. I ended up going to a private Christian school. I started to fall into this kind of pit of legalism thinking that as a Christian I have to be perfect all the time. Like, this is what I have to be. I have to live up to this standard of perfection and always be the good girl that I thought everybody expected me to be. 

 

The legalism and the struggle with perfection continued to just grow and amplify in my life. When I got to college, I struggled with a lot of insecurity. [00:02:32] I feel like I was very sheltered in a way, you know, when I was in my parents' home and went to a public, you know, university, and it was just night and day difference from what I'd come from. 

 

I struggled with comparison. Had actually gone into college. I mean, I'm sure everybody's heard of the freshman 15. With my, you know, whole legalistic perfectionism tendencies, I remember saying, "I am not going to gain the freshman 15. That is not going to happen to me." 

 

What ended up happening was the opposite. I started to fall into this pit of an eating disorder, of being very controlling over what I ate, thinking all the time about what I ate, exercising, and all of the above to where by the end of my freshman year of college, I had lost, I mean, over 20 pounds. The starting picture of me going to college and then the ending picture of that freshman year, it could not be any more different. [00:03:32] 

 

I remember I was blinded for a while by my struggle, by the eating disorder. I thought that I finally had arrived. I'd, you know, met my goals. I remember trying on some clothes one day with my mom and her looking at me with such concern in her eyes and just seeing tears. It was almost like God took these blinders off my eyes to see what I really looked like and what I was really struggling with. 

 

I feel like that was one of the moments where I just started to hit rock bottom. God was so gracious to just show me His grace and His love that endures forever in those moments where I felt like I had lost everything. You know, I had lost my beauty, my outer appearance, my confidence. I feel like I had lost maybe my reputation of, you know, being like the good girl who had it all together. And it just totally wrecked me. [00:04:28] 

 

In that time, God brought so much understanding and clarity, but also through the brokenness, He brought healing. I really believe it was through that brokenness that God set me free from a lot of strongholds that I wasn't even aware were really controlling my life. So I'm so grateful.

 

You know, I can see how the Lord in those early years, you know, He was forming me. He was showing me just his friendship and His kindness and his love. Later when I hit that pit, the bottom of that pit, and met Jesus there and just experienced His grace in a whole new way and the beauty and the power of the gospel that it changed me forever. 

 

Laura Dugger: It just makes me think of that verse that the kindness of the Lord is what leads us to repentance. And it sounds like in your mom's eyes, maybe you saw kindness there. Is that accurate? [00:05:30] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yes. Not judgment, not anger, but compassion and kindness and love and mercy. You know, she saw past what my body looked like and, you know, could see this struggle. And how much more does the Lord see past that? You know, He already knows the thoughts of our minds and the intentions of our hearts. He knows all of that even before we're aware of it. 

 

And so as He was making me even more aware. I feel like I understood the gospel in a whole new way because I thought the gospel was for people who had it together for some reason, not for people who were falling apart. I began to see that the true gospel of Jesus Christ. That He came to save sinners who are dead in their sins, who are separated from God, who are hopeless and hopeless without Him. And it is only by His grace that we have been saved. [00:06:31] 

 

God is so gracious. He doesn't save people who have it altogether. He is the only one who has it altogether. 

 

Laura Dugger: Amen to all of that. And it's so interesting, Gretchen, as you share openly your story. It makes me think of how clear it was for your mom as an outsider. It's something that you said you were blinded to. I'm assuming the world was giving you compliments and praises, and you said you had reached your goal for whatever size that was, and yet your mom had the spiritual eyes to see the wisdom of that emptiness. And that's so gracious of the lord to let the scales fall off of your eyes and not be blind. 

 

But what did your path to recovery and healing look like? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: You know, I think everybody wishes healing and recovery was just like an overnight flip a switch on and the lights come on, And it's not. I mean, when I think of that path to recovery and to healing, a few other things that come to mind. [00:07:34] 

 

One of the very first important things was bringing other people into my struggle. For so long, I had been battling this, and I thought it was between me and the Lord. But other people could see this struggle. You know? They could see the stronghold. They could see the way that my body was looking different, the way I was spending my time, the way I was eating. 

 

And so as I began to open up about it to people who were trusted and to people who I knew would encourage me and point me to Jesus, that began to bring some freedom. Because when we step out of darkness and into the light through confessing to the Lord and then also sharing it with other people, God begins to start that healing process. 

 

I was involved in a local church at my college and my pastor's wife was somebody who I had gotten to know really well. She was kind of mentoring me as I would come into her home and just help clean and, you know, do whatever I could to be around her. [00:08:34] 

 

So bringing those people into my life just made a huge difference. And then Christian counseling. I still go to Christian counseling. I just believe so firmly in the power of having a wise counselor to listen and to help us see things. And so seeing a Christian counselor who helped expose the stronghold of perfectionism that I had and kinda helped me see, like, not the fruit of the eating disorder, but the root of it, that was really helpful.

 

And then memorizing scripture. Oh my goodness. I wrote down so many scripture verses on note cards and took them with me everywhere. This was before you had the Bible on your phone. You know, right now, it's so accessible to us. There's apps for scripture memory and all that stuff. But none of that stuff existed when I was walking through this fifteen years ago. So I would carry these little scripture cards with me all over the place. 

 

When I was studying in the student hall, I would have these verses there, and I would just go through them over and over. [00:09:38] They were healing to my mind, and they were also replacing these wrong thoughts that I had.

 

But overall, healing was slow. I mean, it was slow and it was long. In that though, in that slow healing, God was doing more than just healing my body. He was healing my mind. I have seen over the past fifteen years that God is so much greater than the strongholds that we're struggling with, and He is able to restore our souls.

 

Satan will try to steal our joy and our identity and label us with shame and our struggles, but ultimately, it's what God says about us that has the final say on our lives. 

 

Laura Dugger: How did God begin to pour out His grace on you and even allow you to begin sharing your story in what felt like the midst of living your story as you were on this healing journey? [00:10:38] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Well, I remember thinking that I was alone. You know, we all think that when we're walking through some kind of struggle. Like, It's just me. I'm the only one struggling with an eating disorder or anxiety or fear or whatever it is. And that's one of the ways that I think Satan keeps us in the darkness is believing that we are alone and that we'll be judged for what we're struggling with instead of allowing us to enter into Christian community that, you know, ultimately the body of Christ, it's this picture of Christ, like the hands and feet of Jesus. So there's so much healing that comes through that Christian community. 

 

I remember just feeling like my Christian witness was ruined thinking I have just totally blown it, and I've ruined everything. You know, that was just the thought process that I had. And I remember just praying and just saying, "God, if this is part of my story now, which it is, then use it for Your glory in some way." [00:11:38] 

 

I remember just sitting with a friend and we were eating and just kind of seeing some patterns in her. I was like, "I think she may be struggling with what I'm struggling with." And again, this was a girl who was leading, a strong believer. I just shared with her, you know, I said, "Hey, can I just share with you something that I've been struggling with and what God's been doing in my life?" 

 

And so I kinda told her about this eating disorder that I was really battling to overcome and just kind of how it had impacted me and what God was teaching me. And she looked over at me just with tears in her eyes and said, "I have not told anybody this, but I'm struggling with the same thing." 

 

And we were able to just walk with each other, encourage one another. I've seen God just bring healing in her life, which is so incredible. And so, you know, the more I was willing to share my story and to be, you know, a vessel of the Holy Spirit, to pay attention to those nudges that He would put on my heart that, you know, He opened up these opportunities to set others free as well. [00:12:47] 

 

That's one of the beautiful things is that our brokenness, they're not the end of our stories. They become part of our stories and our testimonies, an opportunity to share of the gospel of grace, of what God can only do to bring us healing and wholeness through his son, Jesus Christ.

 

Laura Dugger: That is such a powerful takeaway, that we are always invited at any point of our stories to share our stories. We reference this verse a lot at The Savvy Sauce, but in Revelation, it talks about the way to overcome Satan really is by the blood of the lamb and the power of our testimonies. So I appreciate you sharing yours. 

 

And just a really practical piece, with your friend, you said you noticed some patterns. Are there any indicators that we could notice in our own friends that maybe we could call this out in a loving way as well?

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. So for me specifically, you know, I was very restrictive about what I ate, you know, very obsessive over calories and fat content, whatever it was. [00:13:54] I was also over-exercising. So it wasn't major idol in my life. Like, I wouldn't take the bus to class. I would only walk, which meant that, you know, sometimes I was really cutting it close to get to my next class walking two miles to get there instead of just taking the bus to get there. You know?

 

Then my body was changing. Like, it was very clear. My pants weren't fitting. My face was looking very kind of swollen and sunken from losing so much weight. I had noticed that in my friend as well that, you know, when I would eat with her, she would only eat, like, a yogurt for lunch or she would exercise a lot and all the time. So I saw those patterns of legality in eating and exercising and also the way that, you know, I would think about it all the time and I would talk about it all the time. I noticed that in her too. [00:14:53] 

 

When it comes to eating disorders, there's also just overarching disordered eating. So it's not just I struggled with anorexia, but there's bulimia and anorexia. And I think those are the things that people think about the most. But, you know, there's also other forms of disordered eating, like crash dieting, constantly being on a cleanse or I have to do this, this, and this in order to be okay. 

 

And so whatever it is, if you see this kind of obsession tendency of like rule following when it comes to eating and exercising. I think those can be some kind of warning signals. I needed people to be there for me instead of trying to fix me. The process to healing was slow and long. I needed people to just encourage me and to walk with me and to let me know that this wasn't going to be forever. 

 

If you see somebody like... I had people that pointed it out to me in ways that were unhelpful, that felt very judgmental and scary. [00:15:54] But the people that came alongside of me and said, "I see you. I know that this doesn't define you, and I'm going to walk with you in this journey of the healing," those were the people that helped me the most.

 

So I want to add that into that, if you do see somebody, not to point it out in a way that feels judgmental, but to say, "Hey, I've noticed some things. Is there anything going on? How can I pray for you? How can I encourage you? How can I walk alongside you in what you're walking through? 

 

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Laura Dugger: Can you share the story of how you met your husband? Yeah. We actually met at middle school camp, except we were not in middle school, we were working at a camp at a church. I had never dated anybody. I'd made a commitment to the Lord when I was in middle school that I wanted to not just date around, I wanted to really wait and be very clear about who God was calling me to date and get to know people. 

 

And so that was not, you know, I graduated college and thought, oh, you know, my plan when I go to college, I'm going to get fall in love and get married and graduate with my MRS degree. But that did not happen. I graduated single, having not dated anybody seriously. 

 

I had graduated and was wondering, God, what do you want me to do with my life? Because this is not what I was thinking. Through just His sovereignty and His wise plan, I ended up working at a church in Tennessee and I ended up going to intern for the middle school ministry. [00:19:09] 

 

And I remember thinking, "Okay, well, I'm never going to meet my future husband here. I'm going to work with middle schoolers. Clearly, I'm not going to meet my future husband." So it was just kind of funny because I felt like I went to work at this church going, "Okay, Lord, I surrender this to you." 

 

And while we were at the middle school camp, I ended up meeting Greg. It was on 80s night, so they have different themes for each camp night. And I looked totally ridiculous in an 80s outfit. And I remember meeting him, and he said his name was Greg Saffles, and I was like, "Saffles? Wait. What's your last name?" He said, "Saffles, like waffles."

 

Now that's pretty much what I always say to people because it's hard for people to know, like, what Saffles? Even though that's not technically how you say it, you don't say sapples. So we met and at first, you know, I remember just thinking, "He is really different from everybody." [00:20:04] I would see him just being so servant-hearted, so humble, just worshiping the Lord and being there for others.

 

I was still pretty guarded, though. I was not just going to start dating somebody. So we ended up just getting to know each other for six months. I stayed on board at the church and started working in the women's ministry. It was funny because he would always come to the women's ministry events. We needed someone to do sound and he always volunteered.  And I loved it because I'd get to hang out with him. 

 

So we were just friends. And I made that very clear. I was like, "We're just going to be friends because I know it would be a big deal if we started dating because we're both on staff at the church. I'd worked in student ministry. 

 

That January, my windows were frosty every day, you know, because it's cold in Tennessee. And I'd wake up and somebody had scraped my windows. And I was like, "What is happening?" Because I lived with a roommate and her windows were all frosty. [00:21:02] I'm like, "Why are my windows being scraped off?"

 

Eventually, I found out that he was waking up really, really early to come scrape off my windows just to serve me. I mean, once I discovered that, and we talked, we started dating. And then we were engaged four months later and married five months after that. So we joke about meeting in middle school camp, but, technically, we were older than middle school.

 

Laura Dugger: That is amazing. I love hearing that story of the way that he served you well. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: At that season of life, did the two of you have similar visions for your future life together or your career aspirations? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: I always thought I'd marry... My dad was a pastor. My sister married a man in ministry. So I was like, I'm going to marry a pastor or a worship pastor. Greg was neither of those. He worked at the church, but he did the creative ministry, and just different than what I was expecting. [00:22:01] 

 

He was this man that, and he still is, is just like a behind-the-scenes servant. Always there to help others and to do whatever, you know, to make things just joyful and helpful to them. As we started to get to know each other, I realized just his heart for the Lord, his desire to just honor God and whatever he was doing.

 

It was funny because back then he talked about seminary, and that's still something we're talking about and potentially pursuing. So we really did. I mean, the more we got to know each other, we realized how similar our passions were and that even some of the things we were passionate about, like going on adventures and things like that, we were able to bring that out in each other. So it was fun because I feel like we were able to be even more of ourselves with each other. 

 

I mean, we're very different. I'm the talkative, want to get to know everybody. He's more the quiet, you know, behind-the-scenes, introvert. [00:23:03] So we are opposites in some ways, but in a lot of ways we're very similar.

 

Laura Dugger: As we look at that season of life, that's when you were transitioning into a new career. And I've heard you say before that Well-Watered Woman began as a big dream in a small apartment in Tennessee. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Can you just elaborate on those small beginnings? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. We got married that November, and he was still in school. So he graduated that December, and he'd been offered a job at a church plant of the church we'd been at. So we knew we were going to move from Nashville to Knoxville. We had kind of a delayed bigger honeymoon just because of his school and our jobs at the church. That was just a busy time.

 

Later that December, we went to Hawaii, and it was so much fun. And when we were coming home from Hawaii, we found out that my mom was in ICU with a very rare autoimmune disease. [00:24:05] So we came back from this high of just the best honeymoon to a crisis. A major crisis. 

 

And we moved not long after that to Knoxville, and I didn't get a job at first because I was going back and forth from Georgia to Tennessee to help take care of my mom. God really used that time to kind of shift my priorities. Like, okay, I really was able to see how fleeting life is. Greg was really gracious even though we were making no money, like barely getting by. He just encouraged me, "Okay, now's the time. If you want to try something new, let's dream about it. Let's make something happen."

 

So I took some time during all of that, you know, going back and forth while my mom was in. She had to go to a rehab facility to learn to walk again from this autoimmune disease. So during that time, I was dreaming, Okay, what are some things that I would love to do someday? 

 

So I ended up coming up with this idea to create my own Etsy business. [00:25:05] Again, we had no money, no resources, so I would just go to garage sales and thrift stores and Goodwill and find old things that I could make into something that would be useful and enjoyable to somebody else. 

 

I did that for nine months to a year. But I knew that that wasn't what God was calling me to do long term. I'd always had a heart for ministry and wanted to work in like girls ministry or something. And so I ended up, you know, having this desire to create a quiet time journal for women that would help them get into the word. And that was just for my own need. I knew I wanted something that would be exciting and engaging and inviting to open my bible each day and spend time with the lord, and I had no clue how to do that. 

 

But I was leading a college small group at the time at the college that was there, and one of the girls that started coming to group was a design major. So I was like, "Hey, I have this idea to create this. Can you kinda show me how to design it? I can sketch it out for you." [00:26:09] 

 

So she showed me, and I used the little bit of money that I had made from my Etsy random store that I had to create these quiet time journals. Once I started doing that, I knew, okay, this is what God called me to do, to create resources to help win and get into God's word. 

 

So started creating the Give Me Jesus journal, different Bible studies and just tools that would help women be excited to open their Bibles. It grew pretty quickly from there, and we found ourselves shipping all this stuff from this itty-bitty apartment. 

 

One of my friends came on board with me and took over the shipping responsibilities so I could just create and write and do the things that I felt really passionate about doing. Since then, we have grown. We have a warehouse in the Atlanta area, and I think there's maybe like 16 girls that work with us now from the warehouse side to the design and writing and all those different aspects of what we do. [00:27:11] 

 

So it's been really cool to see how the Lord has just provided. Obviously, there's so many twists and turns in anybody's journey in the road that we take. But even along those, it's all part of God's plan, and He works through every single thing. So even the things that may feel like failures or major dead ends, God is still working through them, and He's forming our hearts and our minds so that we can be more like Christ. So, ultimately, at the end of the day, that's what I long for is to know Christ and to make Him known throughout we do. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think you're doing an incredible job with that. It does help to have a fuller picture of those high highs and those grand experiences, but also remembering those small beginnings. With your mom, what is the current situation? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: So she still has this autoimmune disease. It's somewhat under control. It can still flare up. Autoimmune diseases, you know, they're all different, but a lot of times they can kinda manifest in similar ways. But it's a hidden illness, a lot of times they'll call it. [00:28:18] 

 

So, what she had attacked her central nervous system, like her spinal cord, her immune system attacked it, which caused that paralysis. They were able to treat it with steroids. So she is constantly battling different pains and just the effects of the disease, but she has done that with such grace and relying on the Lord. It has really allowed me to see what it means to trust God and to live for what is to come instead of for what is right now. Because right now, we will walk through suffering and through very, very hard things, but God, He's so faithful, and He's with us in them.

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. But I just think that had to be such a tough season coming home from this amazing honeymoon experience into a very new reality. But you have your roots dug so deep into the Lord that it sounds like He's been with you, and he's prepared you for some of that. And I love this resolution that you have to put the word over world. [00:29:25] Will you tell me more about that? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: So that was several year... I'm thinking that was, like, 2017 when I kinda came up with that little phrase "word before the world". It was because I love the end of each year to kinda go back and evaluate, like, what happened? What are some things that I would love to work on in the new year? I love that season. Some people don't care about it, but I just think it's really fun. I'd always made some sort of resolutions: Oh, I want to exercise more. I want to eat better. I want to do this project. You know, just very kinda typical. 

 

But that year, I'd really seen that I was struggling with waking up and just grabbing my phone because I would sleep with my phone next to me. So I'd go to bed looking at it, wake up first thing, and look at it. And it would really start my day the wrong way because I'd see an email that came up that was discouraging or a text or something on the news or something on social media to compare myself to, whatever it was. [00:30:25] 

 

Then I would realize, like, it kinda just dampened my desire to even be in God's word, and I wanted that to change. I knew that if anything else in my life was going to change, it would only happen by the grace of God by putting His word first. Ultimately, that is what I needed. 

 

So, I kind of was thinking, Okay, what's the one thing? If I could just work on one thing this year, I wanted to put the word before the world. So that's where it came from. And I shared about it. Essentially, it's a commitment to hopefully read God's word before we pull up social media and begin our day, but also it shifts our priorities in so many ways and changes the way that I view my time with God, the way that I view my days in general. And rather than penciling in time with the Lord, I want my days to revolve around Him. 

 

I'm not perfect at this. It's still a struggle to get into God's word first thing. Sometimes I can't first thing because I've got young kids and they've already woken up and they need me in that moment. [00:31:27] But, ultimately, that still goes through my mind: I want to put the word before the world. Like, I want to spend time with that today. 

 

Because I think that the term quiet time can carry with it a lot of negative connotations. People think, oh, quiet time, it needs to be quiet. It needs to be perfect. It needs to be this long. It needs to look like this. And we put all these stipulations on it to the point we don't even spend time with God because we think it has to look a certain way.

 

Ultimately, this is just about, like, show up. I mean, God is already with you. He is faithful. And to know that He is speaking and He is working in your life. And we can meet with Him wherever, whenever. So it's a lot bigger than just the whole wake up and try to read the word first thing, to put our minds on Him. It's about centering our days and our priorities around Him and His desires.

 

Laura Dugger: Love that paradigm shift. 

 

Are there any topics or questions or guests you specifically want us to host this year? We value your input, and we would love to hear from you. [00:32:30] Email us anytime at info@thesavvysauce.com, or reach out to us on social media. We're on Instagram and Facebook @TheSavvySauce. We love connecting with you, so we hope you continue the conversation with us today. 

 

I love how you say that this is such an exciting time of year for you that you like reflecting back on the past year and then looking ahead. And I'm with you. I totally geek out this time of year and love January 1. If somebody's inspired to put Word before the world, then maybe they can learn something else from you because regarding your personal walk with God, you also talk about this acronym ABIDE. So will you share about each of those five parts of our spiritual journey? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. It's kinda funny this ABIDE acronym. I was studying John 15. I love that passage. Jesus is talking about what it means to live the abundant life. And it comes from obeying Him, being His disciples, and remaining in Him. [00:33:32] 

 

So I was studying this, and I actually was preparing to give a talk to some girls that were leading at Winshape camps and came up with this, Okay, how do I actually take what Jesus says in John 15? Since it's so important. Abiding in Christ is not an option. This is part of what we do. This is our life. 

 

So I wanted to come up with something that actually give it handles. You know, how do we actually do this? So I came up with this ABIDE acronym that comes directly from John chapter 15. 

 

So just to break it down, the first one is to accept pruning. And that's the very first part of John 15 where Jesus says, "I am the true vine and My Father is the vine dresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes that it may bear more fruit." 

 

So this is one of the basic parts of being a Christian is pruning. That God is constantly working in our lives, you know, removing sin, removing parts of our flesh so that the Spirit would be made evident. [00:34:36] I've been memorizing Romans 8 for a really long time and I finally am pretty much there. But I have just really begun to see how important it is that we are led by the Spirit. 

 

And in order to do that, we have to accept the pruning of God. This can come through so many different circumstances. I mean, it came through my eating disorder. He was pruning these different thoughts and beliefs that were not of Him so that my life could bear more fruit so that I would not be attached to that false spine of an eating disorder. So to accept pruning, not to push back when the pruning shears come, but rather to accept it as a gift from the Lord so that we can bear more fruit. 

 

And then we Believe his word. He talks about abiding in Him and His word. That the person that bears much fruit is the person that is obedient to God's word. And so to believe His word, not just to say, oh, yeah, I believe that. But when the rubber hits the road to really say, no. I don't believe that. I don't believe that God is good or He is faithful. [00:35:39] So to really believe His word. In order to do that, we have to know His word, and we have to see His faithfulness shine through in every moment of our lives. 

 

And then we identify false binds. You know, there's so many things that we try to attach ourselves to. So going back to the eating disorder because I've talked about that a lot, I was attaching myself to this false vine of if I just looked a certain way that I would be loved, if I weighed a certain amount that I would be beautiful.

 

And so I attached myself to that thinking that that's my identity when ultimately our identity becomes Christ as believers. He is the one who lived the sinless life and gives us victory every day. He's the one who leads us to abundance. Jesus, again, He starts out, "I am the true vine." There's so many false signs out there, but only Christ is the true vine. 

 

And then Delight in Jesus. That's the D of ABIDE. So we delight in Him. [00:36:39] I think we forget about this a lot. In our walk with the Lord, we can just come to it with this legalistic checklist mentality rather than just delighting. I delight in my husband. We have so much fun together. You know, we love to spend time together. How much more should we love to spend time with the Lord and just delight in Him and His goodness and His provision in everyday life? 

 

Then lastly is Enduring with joy. So we're going to walk through hard times. There is so much need for endurance in the Christian life, and we cannot endure without being rooted and attached to the vine. So we endure with joy. I mean, Jesus says that He does all of this for the joy set before Him. And He says in John chapter 15, "These things I have spoken to you that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be full."

 

His desire is for us to be full of joy. And He knows that the only way we can experience that full joy and that abundance is through abiding in Him. So that's from John chapter 15. It's basically verses one through 13. And we want to abide in Christ because that's our joy, our connection to Him, and that's what gives us the endurance and the delight and the perseverance we need in this life. [00:37:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: John 15 is definitely one of my favorite chapters of the Bible. I think that and Proverbs 3 are my two current favorites. I just have to say one more scripture from John 15:4 kind of sums up what you're saying. "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me." I just love this time of year, especially John 15 comes to life. And if anybody wants to refer back to some teaching on John 15, I'm going to link to the fruitful episode in the show notes as well. 

 

But, Gretchen, we haven't even talked about a recent resource that you've made available. When I was reading your book, Jesus models how solitude and time alone with God is important, and you teach that the Christian life is also important to be lived with others, not just by ourself. So right. Will you share some of the relationships that have impacted your walk with the Lord that you specifically wrote about in your book? [00:39:06] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. I'll think of three right off the bat. I talk about my papa a good bit and how his love for the Lord and his walk with Him has had just a tremendous impact on my life. That's why I created the Give Me Jesus quiet time journal was based off of reading his Bibles and seeing how he poured over the scriptures and prayed, and he studied the scriptures, and he loved them, and he lived them. My papa really modeled this. He walked through great, great, great suffering in his life, and yet his hope was in Jesus. 

 

Then my mom, just all of the things that she has faced. So my papa, that was her dad. So my mom has just walked through great physical pain and suffering. And in all of that, she just remained attached to the true vine, so many times where I probably was like, "I don't know how you're doing this. I'm barely getting by." She would say if she was sitting right here, it's all His grace. It is all His grace. [00:40:10] 

 

Then Karen. Karen was a mentor of mine. She went to be with the Lord. Goodness. It was three or four years ago now. Thinking it was four years ago. When I first met Karen, she was battling cancer, about with cancer again. She had walked through so much pain and suffering. 

 

She had lost her husband, her first husband, in this tragic incident where he had taken her boys camping. She and her husband had three boys, and they were on top of a mountain. It was actually December 31st. It was the last day they were going to bring in the new year doing this camping trip. 

 

He was a pastor, and he was with the boys, and he had looked out at just the beauty of the mountains and creation all around him and just said, you know, Boys... he was just marveling at God's goodness and creation, and then they heard a rattle and he was gone. He had fallen off the cliff. They never heard anything. The boys never saw anything. [00:41:10] They didn't know that he'd fallen off the cliff. They didn't find that out until the next day, and it was just like the Lord took him. 

 

One day, and I think this was months later, she was just out shopping and walked into a Thomas Kinkade art studio and was looking at the art and came across a piece of artwork that just stopped her in her tracks. And she said, "Where did he paint this? How did he know about this? And she was so confused. 

 

When she looked at this art piece, and it was very different from Thomas Kinkade's regular artwork, if you have ever followed him. He paints a lot of these cottages, really is just incredible at painting different light. But this was of a mountain and it was high mountain and it had a cross on it. 

 

She was looking at it and it was the mountain. It was the mountain where her husband had died. The cross had been placed where her husband had been. I mean, down to the specifics of the bushes that were on the mountain, these certain bushes. [00:42:12] I remember her telling me about them. 

 

So she contacted him and said, "I'm going to share my story with you. I don't even know how this has happened. Only the Lord." Thomas Kinkade got back in touch with her, and he had actually had this kinda vision, this idea for this painting that December. And it was very different from anything he'd ever done, and so he was working on painting this mountain scene. And I believe that he finished it around the time... the end of that year. I mean, he literally painted this mountainside where her husband died and had no clue. So it was so cool. 

 

He actually invited her, and she was able to come share her story. He sent her a copy of the painting. So when I would go to her house, it was up above her fireplace. And she had little tracks that she would show people. And it was just her story of God's goodness and His provision. [00:43:10] That even in her great loss that God had such a bigger story. He was working on something so much bigger for His glory. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. That is so powerful. It leaves me speechless. Well, Gretchen, you're in so many leadership positions with work leading a team of women, and then as a mom, leading your children with Greg and prioritizing your marriage. Like you said, your husband even works for Winshape Marriage. So what are your best practices specifically as it relates to all of those important areas of life in leadership and family and marriage? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Ultimately, I go back to Matthew 22:28. The first and greatest commandment is that we would love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our mind, and with all our strength. Ultimately, in order for me to lead others well, you know, my team or my children or to love my husband well, I have to be loving God first. [00:44:16] 

 

When my priority is to love the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, it then overflows into my marriage, into my motherhood and into my work. Because when we are loving God in that way that He calls us to, it changes how we respond to people, how we love them, how we prioritize them, how we respond to them. And so I go back to that passage a lot. 

 

And then Jesus says the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourself. So it begins, you know, we love God first. When He is that priority, when He is center stage of our lives, then it will impact how we react and how we just take part in any other relationship in our lives. 

 

That's the verse that I often go back to is, God, how am I loving you first? And how does that love then impact my patience and my long-suffering and my servanthood and all of those different things that is a part of our relationship with others? [00:45:25] 

 

Laura Dugger: Gretchen, you've just given us a taste of all of the teaching that you have available. So can you tell us a little bit more about some of your resources and even where we could find and follow you online? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Absolutely. I lead a ministry called Well-Watered Women. You can go to just wellwateredwomen.com. You can find our shop there where we create resources to equip and encourage women to be rooted deeply in God's word. Those resources range from quiet time journals or bible studies, verse cards, you know, whatever it is that we can create to help you cultivate this deeper walk with the Lord and a consistent walk with Him. 

 

There you'll also find articles that are biblically rooted, gospel-centered. We also share just encouragement daily on social media. So on Instagram, you can find us at Well-Watered Women or the Well-Watered Co. That's our shop. [00:46:28] 

 

But I also had the joy of releasing a book this year called The Well-Watered Woman: Rooted in Truth, Growing in Grace, Flourishing in Faith. There's a whole chapter in there on Karen, there's a chapter on abiding. If a lot of these things that you've heard in the interview have been encouraging to you and you want to just kinda maybe dig a little bit deeper, the book would definitely be where you can go. So you could find that in our shop, but you can find it on Amazon, your local bookstore.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you. We will link to all of that both in our show notes for today's episode and on our resources tab of the website. And you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So, as my final question for you today, Gretchen, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Gretchen Saffles: One of the really practical rhythms that I have sought to implement, I really want to know scripture. [00:47:27] I've just seen the importance of knowing God's Word and being able to call it to mind. So scripture memorization. It seemed so hard to me. I was like, "How do I add this into my busy schedule?"

 

So I've created this rhythm where every night before I go to bed, I read on my iPad. That's where I read most of my books like that. And I found this app called the Verses app, and I pull it up every night to review scripture that I'm memorizing.

 

It's a really fun app. You can do (fill in the blank), you can do different things to kinda help your mind start to really meditate on that passage and get it into your thoughts. That's been just a really practical rhythm that I've loved because I know every night this is when I'm going to memorize my scripture, I'm going to review it, and then I use... We have a Word Before World scripture memory journal in our shop where I'll write those verses out, and I can take them with me as I go. [00:48:26] So those are just really practical. It's made that spiritual discipline something that I just really love and I enjoy each day. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, it is so evident, Gretchen, that you are deeply rooted in God's word and that those deep roots is part of what He's used to help you weather these storms. It's obvious to us listening that there is so much fruit and fruit of the spirit evident in your life. So thank you for sharing all of your wisdom with us today, and I loved hearing your story. Thank you for being my guest. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Oh, thank you. I loved getting to talk to you. I just really pray that this conversation really, really blesses and encourages everybody who listens. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, thank you. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:49:32] 

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:50:34] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:51:33] 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

*This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for young ears*

 

165. Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

 

Your lips drop sweetness as the honeycomb, my bride; milk and honey are under your tongue. Song of Songs 4:11 (NIV)

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you tell me more about a few of your take aways from studying Song of Songs

2. What wisdom can you offer to couples who are asking "is this ok?"

3. Will you share ways to get the most out of involving all five senses in married sex?

 

Gary Thomas’ writing and speaking focuses on bringing people closer to Christ and closer to others.   He is the author of 20 books that together have sold over two million copies and have been translated into more than a dozen languages. These books include When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People; Sacred Marriage: What if God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy?, The Sacred Search: What If It’s Not About Who You Marry, but Why?, and the Gold Medallion award winner Authentic Faith.

 

Gary holds a B.A. in English Literature from Western Washington University, an MA degree in systematic theology from Regent College (Vancouver, BC), and an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from Western Seminary (Portland, OR).

 

He serves on the teaching team (and as Writer in Residence) at Second Baptist Church, Houston—a congregation with six campuses and 70,000 members—and is an adjunct faculty member at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon and Houston Theological Seminary in Houston, Texas.

 

Gary’s speaking ministry has led him to speak in 49 states and nine different countries, and on numerous national television and radio programs, including multiple appearances on Focus on the Family and Family Life Today. Gary’s interviews on Focus on the Family have been chosen among the “Best of 2013,” “Best of 2014” and “Best of 2017.”

 

Gary enjoys running in his spare time and has completed 14 marathons, including the Boston Marathon three times. He and his wife Lisa have been married for 35 years and they have three adult children and the smartest, cutest, most adorable granddaughter on the planet.

 

Gary is active online through his website (www.garythomas.com), twitter (@garyLthomas) Facebook (www.facebook.com/authorgarythomas) and Instagram (garythomasbooks)

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Married Sex

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at midwestfoodbank.org.

 

Gary Thomas is back as my guest today. Last time, he discussed nine ways to connect intimately with God, and today, we're talking about connecting intimately with our spouse. Gary has just released an awesome book that he co-authored with our previous guest, Debra Fileta. It's entitled Married Sex. 

 

Today, you're going to hear more about sex and marriage in this safe and trusted place where Gary is going to encourage married couples to gratefully enjoy all the marital pleasures God has stored up for them. [00:01:24] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Gary. 

 

Gary Thomas: Thank you, Laura. So glad to be back. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, in case anyone missed our previous chat on September 13th, will you just remind us of who you are and what you do? 

 

Gary Thomas: Sure. I'm a husband, a father, rather recent grandfather. I've been a writer for most of my adult life. I'm also on the teaching team at a church in Houston, Texas. 

 

Laura Dugger: What I always appreciate about you, Gary, is you always esteem your family so well and honor Lisa. And that was especially important in one of these newest books that you've written with Debra Fileta, and it's entitled Married Sex. I love how the two of you point out this positive correlation between a healthy emotional connection in marriage and a fulfilling sex life. 

 

But before we jump into all of those details of Married Sex, what have you learned about the importance of the word "cherish"? [00:02:28] 

 

Gary Thomas: Laura, God used that word to reset my view of marriage, my expectations of marriage. The day we got married, most of us promised to love and to cherish until death do us part. And I don't know that I never thought of the word cherish for another 25 years. 

 

Madonna had a song that came out in the 80s that might have brought it to my mind, but I didn't really take it seriously. But the Lord challenged me that there was something there, and I began to explore what it meant and began to practice it. 

 

I'd always called myself to love my wife, even sacrificially, but “cherish” just created an entirely new element. Love focuses me on my obligations, sacrifice, serve, be faithful, persevere, hang in there, but "cherish" focuses me on the beauty and excellence and even wonder of my spouse. And I found it created an entirely different dynamic in marriage. [00:03:26] 

 

So it was a new rubric through which I looked at marriage, a new invitation of how I want to look at my wife and treat my wife for the rest of my days. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and as a pastor, you've spent significant time studying the Bible. What do you believe God's gift of sex teaches us about Him? 

 

Gary Thomas: It's amazing to me, Laura, when I really take it seriously what God tells us about sex in His book. For starters, we can just look at the title of the book that is primarily about sex, the Song of Songs. The ancient Near Eastern phrase, something of something elevated whatever was being discussed. 

 

An analogy that most people would have heard is God being called the King of kings. That doesn't mean that God is just the greatest of kings or the strongest of kings. It means that if you were to put all the kings of the universe together, God would be King of those kings. He's different in kind. 

 

So in the Old Testament, now this is pre-Christ, but in the Old Testament when it's describing the Song of Songs, not just the best song or the most wondrous song, the song that is different from every kind, that stands above every other kind of song, is a song of a husband and wife in their intimate sexual relationship within marriage. [00:04:42] 

 

And so God is telling us just with the title of the book, there is no other experience like this. And it shouldn't surprise us that God gives us that title, gives the book that title, when you think about what sex can do. The fact that as God is creator, in one sense, we become cooperating creators in sex. That we can literally create human beings who share our DNA. What sex does to us relationally where we feel connected with somebody, like we'll never feel in any other circumstance. The fact that it makes us feel like we are humans with bodies, we are embodied people, embodied beings who have nerve endings that can fire off in so many different ways. 

 

While sex reminds us of the transcendent God, it also reminds us that we are very much physical people. In that regard, I don't think it's surprising that He gives it such a high praise by calling the book about sex the Song of Songs. [00:05:45] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how your writing definitely just leads us to worship our creator. And I'm just going to share a little quote of yours where you elaborate on this and say, "God is a giver, and His gift-giving ability and creativity are stupendous." Will you just tell us a few more of your takeaways from studying the Song of Songs? 

 

Gary Thomas: Yeah. Well, I think one of the ones that was so gratifying to see is the very second verse, Laura. The very second verse it's the wife talking. And she says, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is more delightful than wine." 

 

I think in previous decades, there was a sense, even within the Christian world, but not just the Christian world, I think outside of it, the sex was often seen as for the husband, just to meet his needs or to keep him from stumbling or whatnot. And right out of the gate, the Bible says, No, this is for her pleasure. 

 

When this wife says, "Your love is more delightful than wine," that can go over the heads of a lot of modern wives because a lot of modern wives may not even like wine. [00:06:52] I'm sure many do, but not all. 

 

But if you go back three thousand years and think about a woman living in the desert, what it was like for women, think about how many pleasures she didn't have. She didn't get to wake up to a cup of caramel macchiato. She didn't even have Folgers. Right? Coffee wasn't there yet. She couldn't have dark chocolate in the afternoon. It hadn't been invented yet. I can't imagine my wife's life without dark chocolate. And in the evening, she didn't get to turn on the Real Housewives of Jerusalem to chill out with Netflix. She really only had one pleasure, and that was wine. 

 

And so what she's saying here, "when your love is more delightful than wine", and I should say that word "love" in Hebrew is dod, D-O-D, referring not to romantic love, but physical acts and caresses, she's saying I really have no other pleasure than this. [00:07:46] 

 

Now plenty of wives listening may say, well, you know, frankly, I might prefer a novel or playing an instrument or taking a walk or leading a Bible study. And that's fine. The takeaway though is that God's book on sex begins with stressing the wife's pleasure, that this is for the wife. Sex wasn't created just for the husband. Women are supposed to enjoy it as well. That's what God's design is. 

 

Laura Dugger: And, yes, how you say the first person to be pleased is the wife, and I think you drew out so many interesting principles from Song of Songs. Before we started recording, Gary said a prayer and just was asking for the Lord to make this a time of instruction as well. So as we share these things, that's our hope, instruction as well. And so as we share these things, that's our hope, is that it lands on ears that appreciate and can apply this information. 

 

But from the Bible, I'm going to re-quote that Song of Songs verse that you're talking about where she says, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is more delightful than wine." [00:08:46] You write in the book, "The kissing may involve his mouth, but not always hers, meaning he's kissing elsewhere. She wants his mouth all over her."

 

I think that's just a little taste of what this book is about, how you and Debra just beautifully weave in scripture and point us to worshiping God and reveal His heart in Married Sex. And you've heard a lot about the wife, but could you give us a little glimpse as well about the turbocharge for the husband?

 

Gary Thomas: Well, and let me stress, Laura, just so people know, this is an explicit book that Debra and I have written, but it's not as explicit as the Song of Songs. You really can't get more explicit than the Song of Songs. And so we just tried to follow the biblical model of celebrating what the Bible itself celebrates. 

 

So while in 1:2 it celebrates the pleasure a wife gets, I think Song of Songs 1:9 really is one of the key statements for the husband when he says, "I liken you my darling to a mare harnessed, to one of the chariots of pharaoh." [00:09:53] 

 

Now, again, that can go over our heads 3,000 years later. But back 3,000 years ago, people knew mares didn't pull the Pharaoh's chariot. The Pharaoh was like a king in the game of chess and battles. You were fighting over the rulers even more than land. If the Pharaoh went down, the battle was over. So the Pharaoh would have chariots pulled by the strongest and fastest horses with the most endurance, and that would be stallions. 

 

But what they discovered is when a stallion is in a mare's presence, she's not there to pull, just to be in proximity. Her presence, her sight, even her smell would literally whip the stallions into a sexual frenzy. And they discovered that sexually excited stallions run faster and farther than stallions that aren't. 

 

It's sort of funny, it's how they literally upped the horsepower 3,000 years before there were combustible engines. And it's really the picture of a man where the wife gets so much pleasure out of sex. The man feels like I can be stronger. I can do more as a husband, as a father, as a worker, as a son of God. [00:10:58] There's something about a fulfilling sex life that sets me up to be more engaged and to just be more involved and succeed in life in general. 

 

Laura Dugger: And when we read Song of Songs, it gives permission and blessing to so many marital acts related to physical intimacy. Often within marriage, couples very much can differ in their preferences even if that act seems to be approved in scripture. An easy one to think of is oral sex. So when couples are navigating the question of, is this okay, what do you challenge the couples to think about as they navigate their varying opinions about what they want to do specifically in the bedroom? [00:11:45] 

 

Gary Thomas: Debra and I both wrote from the perspective of we want to speak total freedom where the Bible speaks freedom. If the Bible doesn't have prohibition, we're very nervous about it. I mean, sometimes there are physical reasons to talk about prohibitions, but we're not raising them to the level of the Bible, you know, thus saith the Lord. And so when there's freedom, we want to speak freedom.

 

But let me also stress, Laura, especially if you're talking about oral sex, there are a thousand things a husband and wife can do in the bedroom. Ultimately, because mutual pleasure is so important, if you can't do one out of a thousand things, you can still have an incredible sexual experience. 

 

What we try to do in the book is remove some of the theological objections to it. There are, apparently, now these are somewhat poetic, but most biblical scholars today would say there is evidence for sure of the husband offering oral sex and the wife very likely offering oral sex to the husband. [00:12:46] 

 

If you're wondering how that is, apples are often an image for the male genitals in that poetry of that age. And so when you look at those kinds of things, it's like it seems like they're describing that. And because we know that God isn't against pleasure or sexual pleasure, He created it, because we know that I don't think anybody would say there's a problem if a husband kisses his wife's neck or ears or breasts. There's not anything particularly dirty or certainly not nasty about kissing lower. We just don't see a biblical or even a natural prohibition to that. 

 

That said, if mutual pleasure is the goal, I don't ever want to ask my spouse to do something that would, maybe because of a background or maybe something else, would feel demeaning or wouldn't be enjoyed or wouldn't lead to pleasure. I do believe there's freedom, but we're not trying to give a lot of shoulds in this book. We're offering invitations. [00:13:48] 

 

And sometimes you want to go to this party and not that party. Debra says in the chapter, and this is why I loved writing the book with a licensed counselor. Debra's worked with so many couples, and she's worked with a lot of women with that. And she says, you know, a lot of times it seems intimidating at first, but as the relationship develops, she says, and then even later, as you yourself get aroused, a lot of times some of those inhibitions start to subside a little bit and you can sort of just wade in. 

 

But I would stress, Laura, that this be done in a spirit of exploration and freedom. Never coercion. Never guilt. Never acting like your spouse is making you feel substandard for not doing one thing. Again, I want to stress, and I think our book mentions that, how many things we can do to enjoy each other sexually. We should not obsess on one particular act if our spouse does or doesn't want to do that. [00:14:44] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you're giving a both-and answer because you say the bible speaks a lot to the freedom, and, of course, we're never going to want to push anything that's against our spouse's conscience or agree to anything that's against our conscience. And yet I've heard you teach before as well that there's some work to do to tease out what is also false guilt. So there's a lot of discernment that goes into this. 

 

You've given analogies before about spouses who say, Well, I just want to be more adventurous. Could you elaborate on that? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, the blog post you're referring to, I said, It doesn't seem to me to be a fair question when so often these quote-unquote "adventurous" things always come at the wife's expense. I mean, we mentioned oral sex, if we're being that explicit. There is a natural consequence of a woman giving oral sex that there isn't for the husband. There just is. That's just the way it goes. Or at least the possibility of a consequence. [00:15:45] 

 

So it's not exactly the same thing. Sometimes husbands wanting their wives to dress a particularly provocative way in public, again, because of the world that we live in it's natural that she might feel a different sense of vulnerability. People are looking at her. 

 

Even things like outdoor sex is an entirely different thing about a woman being vulnerable, in that situation. Even on the beach. I just tell guys there's a difference between getting sand on your body and in your body. I don't want to get too explicit here, but people know exactly what I'm talking about. And so I said, adventurous isn't a fair word because if I were to say, "Hey, let's be adventurous," I'm going to shoot an apple off your head with my bow and arrow. That's adventurous, but you're the one that's at risk, not me.

 

Again, I think the standards are mutual pleasure, making our spouse feel desired. There are times we're going to stretch ourselves. [00:16:44] I think, for both husbands and wives, there are those moments when, as all aspects of marriage, conversation, choosing to go out to different kinds of restaurants, going out for a walk when you might prefer to just sit by the TV. There are times in marriage ask us to stretch ourselves and to maybe consider out of love for our spouse that we'll explore something with our spouse that we wouldn't normally think of on our own. But that should be in a spirit of mutual pleasure, delight, and wanting to give to each other. Never coercion, guilt, or manipulation. 

 

Laura Dugger: Your stance in your writing and your speaking is always so wise. You emphasize both the importance of pleasing the wife, which a lot of times unfortunately can be overlooked. But then in this book you also write a chapter entitled What Gets Him Going. So what insight would you like to provide wives on that topic? 

 

Gary Thomas: I do want listeners to know there's also a chapter What Gets Her Going, where Debra really helps husbands understand what's going on with their wives. [00:17:54] So on the chapter What Gets Him Going, we worked with a lot of men. We had a private Facebook group, we interviewed other couples and whatnot, just trying to help wives understand. 

 

Now we realize that no two men are alike. And I stress in this chapter that you can do great damage to your marriage if you treat your husband like most men like to be treated, if that's not how he likes to be treated. But these are really jumping-off points. These are things that couples can discuss and talk about. 

 

One of the things we found, and I love this, in the private Facebook group, a couple of the wives said, hearing these descriptions of husbands celebrating their wife's beauty, they said, make us want to cry. It's so moving to us. The way that husbands really can be enthralled with their wives' bodies. God designed us that way to delight in our wives. And these husbands were saying, we don't want our wives to look like supermodels. We married them. We appreciate them as they are. [00:18:53] So it was just this understanding of how important sight is to the husband and how much they enjoy it. 

 

But then Debra gives a very helpful section recognizing for a lot of women it's difficult to be seen. It's difficult to be naked and unashamed. And so conversations they can have, the healing that has to go on and whatnot. But I do think a lot of women will find that it's just hard for them to believe that their husbands are so enthralled with their beauty because they compare themselves to other women. 

 

But, wives, I just want you to know if your husband is being mentally faithful and regularly having sex with you, oxytocin is being released in his brain. Oxytocin is called the cuddle chemical. It creates feelings of bonding, but it also, when a husband is climaxing, literally makes the person he's with look more attractive and other women less attractive in comparison. [00:19:49] 

 

This is what I just love about God's design of sexuality, that marital sex is literally training the husband to find his wife to be the most beautiful woman in the world. The wife gets to experience being the most beautiful woman in that world. I want to say, wives, just embrace it, accept it, believe it. Your husband isn't lying. He really does enjoy that. 

 

But then we also talk about this for husbands, what gets him going, that for men, quantity is often an issue. Now we know they're... these statistics are so hard to come by. I've heard anywhere from probably around 20% of the higher libido wives, maybe sometimes up to 30%. But that still means that it's probably more likely the husbands tend to be the higher drive spouse. 

 

There are some mechanical reasons for that. Men have about two and a half times the space in the hypothalamus devoted to sexual interest. [00:20:50] And so you can have great sexual experiences once a month. But for men, what I try to say quantity is a part of quality. Now that doesn't mean that you make it a heavy duty or obligation, but you recognize what are the things that keep us from being intimate, perhaps as more often than we like. 

 

There's not any number I'm ever telling couples to reach. What I want is that both couples feel like they are desired and wanted and enjoyed, that it's a blessing and not a burden on them. Because of that, that it matters, there are times when a wife just can't get in the mood and shouldn't. Maybe she's not feeling well. Maybe she's just legitimately tired. Maybe she's not there. And so then we give some very practical… there's some very wise wives that we talked with. I call them turndowns that turn your husband on. How do you legitimately say, "I just can't get there, but you know what? This is actually a prelude to what will happen next time. It might be tomorrow. It might be later in the day." [00:21:53] 

 

But you're always telling your husband, "I'm looking forward to this. We can't right now, but how do you do that in a way that it actually becomes not a point of bitterness and frustration, but invitation and anticipation? There's an art to that, but it's a good art to learn. 

 

And then we talk about the power of your enjoyment, speaking to the wives. If a husband is healthy, he gets more pleasure out of his wife's pleasure than his own. Often women think I want to give to my husband, I want to meet his needs. And I want to say well good, but take a step back and say one of the best ways you can give to your husband is to learn how to receive, to really enjoy it. That is actually exciting for him. So it's not selfish when you teach him how to please you. 

 

It's not wrong to say, "That's not working for me, Honey. That's uncomfortable. I need you to stop." You should speak up. You should help him help you, to quote a famous movie. And that's a gift to your husband. There should be no guilt. That's a good thing to do. And it actually even while it serves you, it serves your husband. [00:23:02] 

 

In the chapter What Gets Her Going, Debra is very explicit about guys, how they can massage and caress their wives’ genitals. We go in the chapter What Gets Him Going, we do the same thing with the man's penis. What does it mean? What do guys often enjoy? Again, not so much the answers as questions. You can talk over with your husband: if this is going to be a lifelong relationship, how do we make it the best that it can be for both the wife and the husband? 

 

Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating, Gary, and I think it can provide this opportunity for couples to talk with one another. Hopefully, if they're listening to this podcast together, they listen separate and are coming together tonight, they can ask one another, Is this true for you? Is this what you experienced? 

 

I think for a lot of women, body image is such a barrier to enjoying sexual intimacy. It's very helpful to hear from an objective third party hearing you as a man say, maybe where women are looking and only seeing their flaws, men truly have told you they do not see her body that way. [00:24:16] 

 

Gary Thomas: If they would just read those quotes, how husbands are celebrating, they're saying, I know she thinks her legs are too short or she thinks she's gained too much after kids or something. I know this is considered controversial, Laura. I don't know why it is. Men do. It's not always, but we do tend to be more visual. There's a reason. There's a whole chain of Victoria's Secrets and you don't see Victor's secrets. That store is not going to make it. 

 

That doesn't mean women aren't attracted to men physically, but it does mean that there just tends to be an excitement in the male brain. And I want wives to receive that feeling of being cherished, not as an obligation, but really just as what is it like to be fully cherished and adored and celebrated like that? 

 

If they can go through some of the steps that Debra mentions and receive it as a gift, not as a heavy obligation. And it can take years. I like what one wife said when she said, "You know what? I was so body negative." She goes, "I can't say that I'm body positive now, but I'm body neutral." [00:25:23] And that's a start, and it's good to get going. 

 

Then what I would say to wives on this, because we've just talked about how to please the husband, and I said one of the things is that your pleasure is so important to him and so thrilling to him and also important to you, that I would say, particularly younger wives, every woman is different, every woman's brain, every woman's body. 

 

So we often tell couples, if you will just take your time, and I would say to the wives, it's a good and holy thing, it's a gift to your husband to sort of let him learn what pleases you. You can even guide his hand. You can tell him. Don't expect him to guess. He can't know because there's no other woman like you. 

 

But if you realize, okay, he gets pleasure out of my pleasure, helping him to pleasure you, it's not selfish. It's a gift. So take the time to do that. [00:26:18] What we really want to do in this book is just help couples to slow down, to cherish the moment, to not just focus on the point of orgasm, but to realize all of the road to get there can be sometimes even better than that finish. And just to take the time to relish the moment the way that God designed us to do. 

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:26:44] <music>

 

Sponsor: This sponsorship message is unique because an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. 

 

Over $30 million worth of food is distributed to over 2,000 nonprofit organizations each month, over 30% of which was produce or protein. In 2020, over 186,000 family food boxes were distributed to disaster victims. Their volunteers are fundamental to the success of their organization. 

 

They collect, sort, pack, and distribute food and disaster relief donations and remind us every day that Midwest Food Bank's mission could not be achieved without them. Thanks to the generosity of donors, the valuable work of volunteers, and most importantly, the blessings of God, Midwest Food Bank shares the blessings world worldwide. More than $360 million worth of food was distributed this past year. This is done from their 10 United States and two international locations. 

 

To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at midwestfoodbank.org. 

 

[00:28:12] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: You discussed in one of your chapters about the five senses in Married Sex. So will you share some more ways to get the most out of involving all five senses? 

 

Gary Thomas: I'd say that was one of her favorite chapters when we stumbled on that. And here's what I love. Again, in this book that God inspired, the Song of Songs, every sense, sight, sound, smell, taste, touch is celebrated as having erotic potential, the way that God designed our bodies. And if couples will just think, how can sound really impact the experience we have in the bedroom? It's amazing how exciting lifelong monogamy can be, how different it can feel with the same person when you just emphasize different senses. 

 

Sound is a big thing. There's a lot of neuroscience behind the power of listening to music while you have sex. Some couples know that and they do that all the time. Others might not. [00:29:13] 

 

We talk to wives about how you can use your voice as an instrument. It's an entirely different experience. For instance, if a wife is laughing or enjoying her time and then she leans over and just whispers something into her husband's ear, that's sort of a brain hack where if somebody's talking in a normal tone and then they whisper right in your ear, your brain just wakes up. What did she say? How do I catch that? 

 

And if you just think of the normal sounds of a couple being intimate, whether the wife is laughing, whether the wife is moaning, whether the wife is silent with intensity, those are all very different kinds of sexual experience that the wife's voice is creating with sound. 

 

We talked about the importance of sight to husbands and also to wives, things that couples can do just to do that. Some people talk about mirrors, ironically, sometimes taking away the sight. One wife said when I was blindfolded and I didn't know what my husband was going to do next, she goes, It created this heightened sense of expectation for me. [00:30:13] 

 

Smell was a big thing. In the Song of Songs, it's so celebrated. If there's one thing that's true about lovers, they love how each other smell. I mean, throughout that pleasing is the fragrance of your perfume, Song of Songs 1:3, and several passages where they talk about it. 

 

Smell elicits memories. This is what's fascinated me. I knew that smell... for whatever reason, our brain is connected to memories, but here's how some very creative wives have learned to use that. One wife knows what perfume she wore on their wedding night, the first time they made love, and every anniversary, she puts a few dabs of that on and it immediately brings them back to that special time when they were first intimate. 

 

Another woman said that we had this great time on vacation where she wore the special lotion. She said it was the best sex we've ever had and every now and then she'll just put on that same lotion and it reminds both her and her husband what it was like in that moment. 

 

But this is where, Laura, we're all different and every woman is different because one woman told us her favorite scent is unscented. [00:31:17] Again, that's why this is a book of questions instead of answers. You have to go through it. 

 

Let me just say another difference between husbands and wives that's really fascinating. A woman's skin can be 10 times more sensitive than a man's. It explains why women tend to enjoy foreplay more because it just feels different to them. It feels more intense. It also explains why husbands often feel like their wives' touches are maybe a little too light, and wives may feel sometimes their husbands' touch can be a little too firm. 

 

Well, if you understand the way our brains operate, then it's something that we can do to prepare and just to be aware of as we try to integrate all five senses to just create entirely new experiences by focusing on one particular sense.

 

Laura Dugger: There is one way to incorporate all five senses, could you elaborate on that as well? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, I think this is when we're really talking about healthy relationships, Laura. I've worked with couples that have had affairs and they've admitted in their words, the sex was pretty good. [00:32:21] But by that, they meant it was athletic. They both got their release. They felt satisfied physically, but they said there wasn't that soul connection. 

 

But there is one sensual act in marriage that really does unlock all five senses, and that's a passionate kiss with your eyes wide open. You see each other up close. You can smell each other. Obviously, you're tasting each other. You feel each other with your lips. And if you're doing it right, you can hear each other. And it is that experience where you can really connect. It's not just physical pleasure, not that I'm downplaying physical pleasure, but it's more than that. There's this soul connection. 

 

I often tell couples, don't just pay attention to how often you have sex. Pay attention to the kind of sex you're having. I mean, it's fine to have laughter sex. It's time to have athletic sex. Sometimes it's time to just have physically passionate sex. You both just want to enjoy that experience. But there should be moments, I think, in a healthy marriage for that sensual, soul-connecting kind of sex. [00:33:26] And I think kissing with your eyes open is a big part of that. 

 

Laura Dugger: Will you also define what you mean by sacred simmering and then share some examples of ways we can actually incorporate this into our marriage? 

 

Gary Thomas: Yeah. This is real helpful. Simmering is a topic that sexual therapists have been talking about, particularly last ten years or so. And what I love is how the bible predates so much worldly wisdom. You go back 3,000 years ago, and there are literally examples of simmering in the Song of Songs. 

 

Let me explain what simmering is. What therapists understand is that it's difficult at times to go from ice cold to red hot. That's a big stretch. Even if you think you might be having sex later in the day, by the time you get there, you're just tired or you're busy, or whatever and you just can't get there. And so the notion is if you can simmer, then you're much closer to boiling. 

 

So if you know you're going to have sex that day, what are some things you can do to simmer? Now the Song of Songs talks about literally the wife thinking, imagining her husband's body from the top of his head and his hair to his arms like rods of iron to his legs. [00:34:39] 

 

And then the husband is mentally celebrating the most beautiful parts of his wife's body. He says the king is held captive by her tresses, referring to her hair. He says her eyes overwhelm me. So he's thinking about the sexually desirable parts. 

 

So simmering is getting your mind in gear. I guess you could call it fore foreplay. It's not foreplay. It's the fore foreplay before you get into foreplay so that you even want to enter the realm of foreplay. So wife could do that while she's fixing macaroni and cheese and heating that up for her kids. They have no idea that she might be mentally heating herself up in an entirely different way to enjoy her husband later that night. 

 

One wife plays this playlist. We talked about using music, and they love to make love to music. And she said, "There are literally songs that I have orgasm to. And when I'm listening to that, the kids don't have a clue what's going on, but it just helps me get in the mood and excited about what's going to happen." [00:35:40] 

 

We talk about a couple in the book where sex had become just too sporadic. Both of them were frustrated with it. And the therapist recommended scheduled sex, and the wife at first thought, "That's the last thing I want to do. I don't want it to sound like this obligation and put it on the list." 

 

But then the therapist said, Well, let's just talk about how you set up your day. And it was basically a day of simmering, where take a longer shower, use a particular kind of soap, make it just kind of essential where you're just thinking about what would happen. And then when you're getting dressed, the clothes you wear and what you wear under your clothes, think about what makes you feel desirable, what makes you feel essential, what gets you in the mood, texts that you might send to your husband or that you might ask him to send to you. 

 

In her case, she really wanted a wide berth between being a mom and being her husband's lover. So he realized she wanted him to bring dinner home Friday night without asking her. She didn't wanna have to make a mother's decision. [00:36:41] And then when they got back from their date, he was the one who paid the babysitter, he was the one that got the kids in bed while she went off into the master bathroom and took a bath. Suddenly, she said, "This is the best thing we ever did for our sex lives." Because she realized a day of simmering makes me so excited for that moment when my husband finally walks into the bedroom and I'm all ready and it's like, here we go. 

 

So just recognize, for some, we have to simmer before we're even willing to consider foreplay. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean you don't desire your spouse. It just means the way our brains work. I've heard it said that multitasking is a myth. Our brains don't multitask. It goes very quickly from one task to the next, but it's not actually doing two tasks at once. Our brains can't do that. Which means we shouldn't be surprised. Sometimes we have to simmer if we've had a day of caring for others or working or studying or whatever we do to really get in the mood for physical intimacy. [00:37:46] 

 

Laura Dugger: I think one more simple way for wives that they would always have access to is mentally just having thoughts of gratitude that they're intentional about too, think about the character or things that they love or admire about their husband. I think that is another example of simmering. 

 

Gary Thomas: Debra talks about that where a lot of times for women because often with women, sexual interest is in the neocortex. Men can often be more in the limbic. The limbic is the sight and sound. Neocortex is the quality of the relationship. And so thinking about how your husband is kind or he treats the kids. 

 

One wife said, to be honest, for me, simmering — she's a musician — "When I hear my husband play the piano, that gets me going as much as anything." So it's realizing simmering is based on what gets you going. Not what gets your husband going, not what gets other women going, but really what works for you. The point is the Bible says that's a good thing to do. It's a holy and sacred thing to do. [00:38:47] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thanks to our friend Joy, thesavvysauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1 titled articles. I hope you check out these new Savvy Snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy. 

 

Gary, will you elaborate on the dangers of only relying on spontaneity for sexual encounters in marriage? There's a place for it, but I think we have to get to the point of not just what do I want, but what does our relationship need? And look at it as a relational issue, not just a personal issue. What makes us feel both cherished? What makes us feel desired? What gives energy and soul connection to the marriage? [00:39:46] 

 

I just had a conversation with a friend. It's been months since we've gotten together, and he said, "Well, let's get together." I said, "You know what? If you can call my assistant." I said, we say that, but if it's not on the calendar, it might be another two months before it happens. That's a sign of valuing the relationship, not that it's not important. 

 

It's just recognizing that in the world we live in, sometimes we do have to just get it on the calendar. What I found, Laura, what that can do is it can just really remove some of the frustration and the uncertainty. So you're not always, is tonight the night? Sometimes it's just kinda helpful to know, No, it's not. I don't have to simmer. I don't have to get my mind there. But tomorrow or the next day after that or whatnot. It can just be helpful. But, again, this is a couple thing. Figure it out as a couple. The point is to make it a delight and not a burden. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. I echo that, that there is absolutely a place and a time for spontaneity that's wonderful for the marital relationship. [00:40:44] And yet I've heard you interviewed before when you said, you know, looking back, you've noticed that that's where a lot of hurt came up in couples was when they only were being spontaneously sexually active or making these sexual advances just in the moment. And a lot of hurt would come up whether that's rejection or not feeling planned for. And you just recommended it's better when possible to be proactively communicating. 

 

Gary Thomas: One couple... Let me just give an example. And I don't think people should use their conclusion as the model for them. But he was a very high-drive spouse, and she was not as much. So he would like to have sex every day, and she was like, "There's just no way I can get to that." 

 

And they finally settled on, and this might not work for the listeners, but she said, "Okay." And they were a younger couple. "How about every other day?" For her, it just meant that the next day she doesn't have to think about it. It's not there. It's going to happen every other day. [00:41:45] 

 

Again, that might still be too much for some wives. But what it did, Laura, is it took it off the table every other day where it wasn't a point of contention. He knew it. And now what had been frustrating or she's thinking, can I never give him enough, and he's thinking I can never get enough, they really found that point where they felt like agreeing ahead of time, "Okay, this is reasonable, we both think this is good," and so now that tension was gone.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. We've written an article on The Savvy Sauce website about in marriage making the covert overt, so making these secret or internal expectations, making them obvious to one another, and you can really sidestep regrets and hurts that way. Again, your book is just an incredible and practical way for people to read that or listen to this interview and have some conversation with their spouse to follow-up. 

 

Gary, what encouragement do you also have to share with married couples as it relates to the difference between our genital prime and our sexual prime? [00:42:52] 

 

Gary Thomas: Dr. David Schnarch was a renowned sex therapist. He passed away within the last year. But he's done a lot of really helpful research and study, and we got that from him. The point is genital prime is when you can have the most active sex physically, but sexual prime is in the relationship when it's likely to be most satisfying. And that can be sometimes 20 years into the relationship.

 

Because sex isn't just physical. There are physical components where you have to learn control, you have to learn each other's bodies, you have to learn your own body for things to work. But there's this sense where the whole relationship, spiritually, emotionally, and learning each other physically takes time to where it can take 15 to 20 years for a couple to really reach the point where they both feel like, we've got this down. And monogamy is what they choose because it's what they delight more than anything, because they know, boy, we've got this figured out, and we can't imagine it being any better. [00:43:56] 

 

Now the road to there, Laura, that we have to be aware of is that he also says there's a difference between the word he uses, arousal, and satisfaction response. And what he means by that, arousal response is what gets you aroused, and satisfaction is what ultimately satisfies you and helps you to orgasm. Those response thresholds change over time. Your body will change, the relationship will change, the experience will change. 

 

So not to freak out, that what worked for you in your 20s or 30s may not work in your 40s or 50s. It doesn't mean that the two of you are waning sexually. It just means what Dr. David Schnarch says, you've gotta be a little more creative. That's why you talk about the five senses or you talk about the difference that each position means and how to be more creative and intentional so that you can create unique experiences. [00:44:52] 

 

We should anticipate that, not to freak out about it. But just say, okay, this is what it is to be in a normal marriage, this is what happens with long-term sexual relationships. So it doesn't mean I don't desire my spouse, my spouse doesn't desire me, it just means this threshold has been met and we've got to change things up a little bit to go forward. 

 

Laura Dugger: I just want to elaborate on that. That's so important what you're saying because over time and throughout different seasons, maybe after childbearing, women may experience vaginismus or different kinds of pain during intercourse, and it's very common at some point throughout marriage for men to experience erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation. 

 

And sometimes these are more isolated experiences. But if it's going on for a really long time, that's okay to seek treatment. We've done a lot of episodes related to all of those topics to help direct people to know where to go to find help. But I think you're right. Expect difficulties through... some of the most challenging times are pregnancy and childbirth. Parenting teens will change a sex life often for a couple. And then medical issues or aging. And so there's always opportunities to seek out help, but those are sometimes that maybe especially in need of support. [00:46:16] 

 

Giving and receiving in sex is important for both spouses. So how would you encourage both genders in seeing sex through the lens of both giving and receiving? 

 

Gary Thomas: Let me answer that by picking up a little bit on what you said before you asked the question, about how after birth or as a couple ages or whatnot, that the threshold changes. I think what trips up many couples is that the goal of sex is often seen as orgasm. 

 

Now, the orgasm gap needs to come down. That's the percentage of time that the husband would have an orgasm and the wife would or whatnot. But we have to understand that there are a lot of very enjoyable things that husbands and wives can do together that don't involve necessarily leading one or both of them to that. And the same thing as far as penetrative intimacy, penetrative sex. [00:47:16] 

 

In some of those situations where taking that off the table, but say we can still enjoy each other, we can still touch each other, we can still make each other feel good. But there's nowhere in the bible that says something is missing if you can't get there. 

 

Now let me just say, eventually, I want a couple to consummate a marriage, and I think generally for healthy sexuality that should be a part of it, but not always insisting on it because it's what will most serve your spouse at this time. Maybe the wife feels like I just can't get there, but, honey, if you're here and you want to kiss me and touch me and I'm going to enjoy it and we can be there. 

 

But recognizing what I said before, that she may need to learn how to receive, and again, for her own pleasure, but also for her husband's. We had some husbands say that, you know what, I feel like Superman when I know I can please my wife. So it really is a good gift when you can help your husband learn how to please you. 

 

So there's that whole chapter that we wrote called What Gets You Going. [00:48:16] We got the chapter What Gets Him Going, What Gets Her Going, and the chapter What Gets You Going. Because the reality is because your brain is so different and especially for women, and a lot of women laughed about this when they were in the book saying, you know what, what pleases me on Wednesday may not work on Friday and that may not work on Saturday morning. 

 

So no husband can guess all of that, and so just helping him, realizing that it's far more common for the guy to have his climax and that not to have to take as much work. So really trying to overcome that gap that often happens because it tend not always, but it tends to be easier for the husband slowing down and figuring out, well, maybe it's better for the wife to please first, just whatever works best for the couple. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so good and such practical wisdom. Is there anything else related to Married Sex that we haven't covered yet that you would like to mention? [00:49:13] 

 

Gary Thomas: What I'd really like to see this book do, Laura, it's not just what happens in the bedroom. It's what happens after you leave the bedroom. I tell this silly story in some of my seminars about the work that Lisa and I had to do one time to be intimate on a cruise. We were with our daughters. They were a lot younger. They had key cards. We couldn't lock them out. They couldn't be alone on their own. And we finally figured out a way for them to be safely away from the room where we know they couldn't be interrupted. It took us days to figure out how to do that, but we had a great time. 

 

But I couldn't tell you what happened in the room. And if I did, I wouldn't mention it now. But here's what I remember, and this is what I want wives to hear. I remember dinner that night. We're with our kids, happy to be with them now because they're not keeping us from anything. So we're thrilled to be a family. But just looking across the table at each other with that wonderful smile, we know, they don't know. Nobody around us knows. We really enjoyed each other. We had a good time. [00:50:12] 

 

It's that just special, private, sacred look that a husband and wife have. Some have said, you know, maybe even at church on Sunday morning when they look at each other and they kinda just remember Saturday night, and they say, man, nobody would believe it or nobody knew, but we do. I just love the intimacy that memories of healthy, mutual, pleasurable sex can create. That it's something nobody else will ever know, see, or hear of. It's shared. It creates this bonding experience. 

 

We want to create more of those knowing smiles between husbands and wives, whether it's at a family gathering, whether it's at a hotel, at a restaurant, or even at church, where it continues to be this wonderful, soul-connecting, marriage-building source. Even after the pleasure is gone, the memories can be just as powerful to serve the marriage. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. I love that, Gary. [00:51:13] You articulate that so well. And if anyone wants to follow-up and learn more from you, where would you direct them? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, if they want more information about the book, the website for the book is marriedsex.us. Marriedsex.us. Now people, understandable reasons, don't like to type in words like that. So you can go to my website, which is GaryThomas.com, and that will link you to wherever I am on social media. The book is available, you know, on Christian books and Barnes and Noble and Amazon and all of that where they could order the book directly. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will make some show notes with episode links available for everyone. And you know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Gary, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Gary Thomas: I think one of the most practical savvy sauces that you could do for a marriage, this is another wife who mentioned this, so I'm stealing this, but a great opportunity. [00:52:18] We had a couple one time that mentioned before they got kids, they could go a long-time enjoying sex. And then they had four kids, and it became all of these quickies. And the wife said, I liked it because it gave release, physical release, but there was something different. It's like eating fast food. Fast food means you're not hungry, but it's not really nurturing. 

 

And they realized they had to step back and have these moments that they savor. There's a place for quickies. But for really connecting and defeating their marriage, they needed those times to savor. And so this was considered really one of the best opportunities where just to get away, particularly if you have kids. 

 

You rent a hotel room and the wife shows up first at about 3 p.m. and she gets to do whatever she wants to do. She can sit on the balcony if there is one and read a novel, she can catch up on Netflix, she can take a bath. The husband comes in and they go out to eat before or after they make love, they enjoy the time. [00:53:16] 

 

And then afterwards, the husband goes home and the wife gets to stay in the hotel room to have a great night of sleep. Now she can get up early if she wants to be there before the kids wake up or she can just decide that she's going to sleep in. You make it a whole day thing where the wife feels like this was an oasis. We have a chapter called [inaudible 00:53:34] sex where life can be frustrating, it can be difficult, it can be hurtful, it can be scary. And good sexual experiences can be like an oasis in a desert. You still gotta walk through the desert, but you're refreshed, you're renewed, so you can go out with new energy and new results to really make the most of your life. 

 

So I would just encourage the listeners of Savvy Sauces, create some of those moments. Maybe that doesn't work for you, maybe that doesn't sound inviting for you, but recognize there's a place where how can sex become the oasis that God intended it to be. [00:54:11] It won't remove all of our problems. It won't solve most of our problems, but it'll help us reconnect so that we can face our problems together. 

 

Laura Dugger: Goodness. Gary, it is always just such a privilege to hear your teaching. You are so clear, and you're such a kind communicator, both in your speaking and your writing. So thank you for devoting time to write this important book, and thank you for being my guest today. 

 

Gary Thomas: Thank you, Laura, for having me. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:55:17] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:56:19] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:57:21] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.