The Savvy Sauce

Inspiring Perspective in Parenting with Kay Wyma (Episode 164)

 

She equips herself with strength [spiritual, mental, and physical fitness for her God-given task] And makes her arms strong. Proverbs 31:17 (AMP)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

 

1. You believe kids thrive on high expectations and you became determined to parent your children "as if they were inherently strong, not inherently weak." . . how did this epiphany launch you into a 12-month experiment with your kids?

2. What list did you create for your "Top Twelve Things a Kid Should Know Before Flying the Wyma Coop"?

3. Now that some of your children have grown and launched, how do they look back on this experiment?

 

Kay Wyma is a mom, blogger, vodcaster, and author of four books in which she has tackled, with candor and humor, some of the troubling societal issues that impact us all. Kay's writings have led her to appearances on TODAY, CNN, Hallmark's Home & Family, and more. Before staying at home with her kids, she held positions at the White House and Bank of America. She lives in Dallas, Texas, with her husband and five kids. Connect with Kay at kaywyma.com or on Instagram @kaywyma.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Cleaning House: A Mom's Twelve-Month Experiment to Rid Her Home of Youth Entitlement

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

 

Kay Wyma is my guest today, and she's going to share some of her lessons from parenting. She is full of great ideas. We're going to hear how one idea was so impactful, it actually turned into an experiment, which eventually was published in her book, Cleaning House: A Mom's Twelve-Month Experiment to Rid Her Home of Youth Entitlement.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kay.

 

Kay Wyma: Thank you so much for having me. I just love The Savvy Sauce and everything about it.

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, well, thank you for that. I just can't wait to talk about this parenting experiment that turned into a book. [00:01:21] But first, let's go back into your childhood. What was your family of origin like?

 

Kay Wyma: Well, you know, I grew up in West... well, sort of West Texas. Texas is so big, and the plains go on and on. I lived in a relatively small city that was the big city for that part of Texas. And, you know, just kind of that regular life of lovely boredom throughout the summer, where you had to go find something to do. I played tennis, so I'd walk to the tennis court every day and hang out with my friends. 

 

It was very regular in so many aspects. But life in the world was going on around just like it is today. I grew up in the 70s, and there was a lot of interesting stuff. I mean, we had major inflation during that period. There was war going on when I... you know, with my father, even. When he was a young dad, we had conflicts going on with Vietnam. [00:02:23] 

 

You had all kinds of things that were significant going on around us. But I think sometimes you look back, like even remembering that cable television came to our town when I was... I think I had to have been in grade school. It was a small enough city where everyone was up in arms because they thought it was going to ruin everybody's life. Like you were bringing in hell into the city. 

 

Which is so interesting because of all the things that we have that surround us now that could make us scared or that could make us go, this is the worst time ever to be having kids or to be growing up in. The truth is, every age and stage has things about it that inherently within all of them there's nothing new under the sun.

 

I love that question because I think it's good to look back and you go, so much of what you'll remember is idyllic. In many cases, more than anything, if you're thinking back on it, you made it through it. I think perspective is a really powerful tool that is worth tapping into and worth finding the truth in all of it. [00:03:30] And the truth being you made it through. The truth being that you are seen and the Lord has plans for you, no matter what time period you're in or what house you were brought up in.

 

Laura Dugger: Now that we know a little bit about your upbringing, will you also share about your own family, both presently and the stage that you were in when you wrote the book, Cleaning House?

 

Kay Wyma: Okay. So we have five kids. The ages right now are 24 to 14. When I wrote the book, the oldest was 14. So, you know, 13, 14. Because when you write a book, it takes about a year to do that. So it's interesting to think back on that. 

 

We have a lovely life. I mean, I love my kids. I was telling one of them yesterday that one of the greatest gifts I was given through all of this, and I think partly through Cleaning House, is realizing that these people that walk life next to you are human beings. 

 

I think in this world of parenting and thinking about those types of topics, it's easy to objectify a kid or a person, which really is not a good thing to do. [00:04:37] Through letting go of a lot of that, which you objectify through performance or determining worth based on an outcome of something or the way that you look, all kinds of things like that, that we just inherently do, just being on this planet. 

 

But letting go a lot of that allowed me to genuinely like my kids and the people I'm next to. It is really sweet to be able to travel this interesting road of parenting where you do have to have a sense of roles and authority, but the amazing aspect of loving each other through it is so powerful and probably the sweetest part of having family around you.

 

And one other thing, just about being a mom, I think it's one of the greatest gifts in a large part because it's one of the only times in your life that you, for a huge portion of your life, are serving other people and your eyes are not on yourself. And I'm like, I think that's the biggest gift because you don't have that in the workplace. [00:05:39] You're always thinking about what you have to do to get the next bonus or raise or whatever, or even to keep your job. Or even in school, it's always about grades. 

 

I remember one day waking up going, this mom gig is a good thing because it forces your eyes off of yourself, which seems to always be a gift.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. Like you said, what a great positive perspective. If I'm doing the math correctly, when you wrote this book, your children ranged in age from 4 to 14. 

 

Kay Wyma: Yeah. 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. I remember you saying that you believe kids thrive on high expectations and you became determined to parent your children as if they were inherently strong, not inherently weak. How did that epiphany launch you into this 12-month experiment with your kids? 

 

Kay Wyma: You know, it probably all started because of the experiment. And the experiment was hilarious. I decided that most things in my life, if there's a change that's coming off of some rotten attitude of me, and I really honestly was frustrated with one of the kids. [00:06:46] 

 

I mean, I was driving down the road and this 14-year-old next to me looked over and said, "Which one of these cars would I look good in?" Because we were literally the meat in a luxury car sandwich. There was a Porsche on our right and a Lexus on the left and a Maserati in front of us, which honestly, I had heard that name before, but I didn't know what it was.  But the kid did.

 

I was sort of like swallowing the vomit in my throat going, Ew, like really? I'm sitting there thinking of how many times we had gone to serve people and I'm like, Stuff doesn't make you who you are. And so I was grossed out by that. I came home and I also had a conversation with my sister-in-law in the car going, "This is so gross. Can you believe this?" Her kid had acted the same way that morning, who was bordering a young adult.

 

I came home, all the dishes were out, the beds were unmade, I mean, everything. And I just was like, "What's going on here?" Because I had taught them how to do those things. [00:07:42] With five kids, it just kind of gets a life of its own, you know? I looked around going, gosh, they're looking to me to serve them. Like they're looking to me to do all this stuff. 

 

I sat down on the couch and I was like, "Yes, they're looking to the state to serve them." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's socialism. And I'm grooming it in my house and I don't even like it," you know? And so it made me go, "I'm done with this." I literally went through the house. Like behind me was the kitchen. I was sitting there going, "Yep, they don't really know what goes on in that room." The laundry room was next to it. And I was like, "Yeah, they think that the clothes magically appear in their drawers," you know?

 

Even though through the years I had shown them this stuff, I hadn't genuinely put it on their plate. Honestly, Laura, it was that. So I did it because I was mad. I was sort of like, "I'm going to show them." And I sort of drew the line in the sand, which is terrible, because when you do, you have to follow through. I mean, I think I regretted it the minute I was like, "Here's what we're going to do." [00:08:43] 

 

But it didn't take long to realize that there really was an issue at play. And it was this issue of entitlement. And entitlement tells a person really that they can't do anything, that everything has to be done for them. That is such a cruel mentality, because you're basically stealing from somebody their identity. 

 

The way I realized that was really on our first task, because I kind of went around the house, you know, you will be cooking dinner now and you'll be doing the yard work or getting a job, all kinds of things that kind of, that made up the 12 months. And it was in that very first month when... you know, just the cooking.

 

There's tips in the book of even how to make a change in your house and stuff like that, which I got from an older, wiser woman that was ahead of me in life. But our first task was making dinner. The poor youngest kid was slow on the uptake and got landed in the first dinner. [00:09:42] 

 

It was literally going to the grocery store with this kid who had even a worse attitude than I did. I mean, just bellyaching, announcing to everyone how mean his mother was, that she was making him cook dinner. And it was so beautiful because a neighbor stopped us as we were walking in and he was like, "What's going on, little man." And he was like, "My mother's making me cook dinner." And he goes, "Well, look at me." And he was holding two bags. And he was like, "I'm making dinner in my house," which instantly was sort of like, Well, hold on a second. 

 

You know, it took it from some terrible task, you know, to like, hold on a second, this man is doing that? It completely changed his mindset right then and there. Our entire experience in the grocery store transformed from something being done to him to being done for him, which I mean, even saying that Laura, I'm like, welcome to our life with the Lord.

 

We feel like these things that He puts on our plate are done to us, but they're actually for us. [00:10:47] And the kid that walked into that grocery store was different than the kid that walked out. The kid that walked out had a sense of well-being and had a sense of purpose and it fed so much life into him. He was 8 years old. So I'm just telling you an 8-year-old can't make this stuff up. You know, little kids can't fake it.

 

As he even made dinner that night, he had such... it was like someone had given him an IV of like, I don't know, some sort of... it was like an intensity of power. Like I can do this. And he started to see things not as like... you know, I used to think of it like if there was a mountain off in the distance, he didn't ever see that as an obstacle. It turned from that to an opportunity. 

 

And that's where I was like, wait a second, this is significant. Our society is telling you check your kid's homework, make sure everything's done, pave the road in front of them. [00:11:49] It's gone from helicoptering to snow plowing. I mean, and even into their adult years. When I was writing this, I was floored at what people were telling me. 

 

Like there was an HR group at a large companies that said that they had to deal with the parents being on the phone of their young adult person interviewing for a job, which it's like, seriously, has it come to that where I'd have to make sure my child was answering their interview questions? I don't even know. I don't know where to go with that. But I know it's out of love that we do these things. 

 

And so it's like, dare we out of love, see what they can do because these kids, they're amazing people. They can do so much more than they think they can do, but they can do exponentially more than we think they can do. And if we can let go of the fear and be able to lean into things that take a little bit of time and sometimes some failure, what comes out on the other side, it's significant. [00:12:51] It invites a person to be able to live in their purpose and gifting.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:12:59] <music>

 

Sponsor: This sponsorship message is unique because an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites.

 

Over $30 million worth of food is distributed to over 2,000 nonprofit organizations each month, over 30% of which was produce or protein. In 2020, over 186,000 family food boxes were distributed to disaster victims. Their volunteers are fundamental to the success of their organization. They collect, sort, pack, and distribute food and disaster relief donations and remind us every day that Midwest Food Bank's mission could not be achieved without them. 

 

Thanks to the generosity of donors, the valuable work of volunteers, and most importantly, the blessings of God, Midwest Food Bank shares the blessings worldwide. More than $360 million worth of food was distributed this past year. This is done from their 10 United States and two international locations. 

 

To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

 

[00:14:28] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Will you now lay out the overview of your 12-month experiment to rid your home of youth entitlement? Specifically, if somebody has the book, I'm looking at the list from page 11, which, Kay, is what you've said are the top 12 things a kid should know before flying the Wyma Coupe.

 

Kay Wyma: Before I start, I just want to say that this was my list. These were the things that I was kind of like, what do I want my kids to know? You know, what is it that's sort of bothering me? When I went through it, I really was sort of like in their life, what would be a good thing for them to know how to do? So here are my top 12 things. And I put it as before flying the Wyma Coupe.

 

So how to make a bed and maintain an orderly room, how to cook and clean, how to work in the kitchen, how to do yard work. By the way, on that one, I'm terrible. I feel for the plant that comes in this house because I kill it. [00:15:28] 

 

So on that was the first one where I was like, you don't have to know how to do it in order to learn how to do it and teach them how to do it. And now they teach me. Then following that was how to clean a bathroom. Not organize it, but literally clean it. How to get a job outside of our home. Another was how to do laundry, which includes putting it away. How to do handyman jobs. We had that chapters interesting because that was the good, the bad end, the ugly. 

 

How to host a party because I am from the South and I love for people to know how to invite people over and to treat them well. And then how to work together, how to run errands, how to put others first through service, and how to act mannerly. 

 

These were important things for me. For somebody else's house, you may have this down. Like you totally may have the laundry down. But there may be something that's in your life like that. You go, I really want my kids to know how to do that. [00:16:26] 

 

The yard work is such a powerful example. Because as your kids lives outside your home and they have never participated in yard work, inherently in their mindset, whether you've said it or not, they think that they have to go pay someone to do the yard work. And that could go for any one of these tasks. 

 

If I don't know how to cook, then I'm just going to think that I have to get Uber Eats every day, which Uber Eats did not exist then, but it does now. And it's super easy. And there is even like you're going to hit a point where it may be cheaper to do Uber than it is to go out and get a steak and learn how to cook a steak or whatever it is. 

 

But the key in all of these is inviting your kids into a process. And it doesn't matter how old they are because you know, just looking at this list, I had a 4-year-old at the time. He couldn't do everything, but he sure could do more than I would have thought at that age, even in the kitchen, because you know, it's scary for a little kid to hold a knife. 

 

You stand next to them as they learn how to use these things. [00:17:28] And then you walk further and further away as they know how to do it. It's like when you teach your kid to ride a bike. We don't go outside these days and see a mom running alongside their young adult son as he rides his bike. That would be embarrassing. 

 

And the reason why we don't is because we did that. When they were little, you run alongside them, you help them sit on it, you put training wheels on it and then the training wheels come off. You don't run alongside them because they can ride. And think of the freedom they got when they learned how to ride the bike. That is the same with each one of these tasks. 

 

So I just encourage you, what is it that you want in your own home for your kids to be able to leave knowing how to do so that when they're faced with these things, they don't have noise in their head? Because there's plenty of other stuff to fill up their minds without having to pay any attention to something that they may not know how to do that when they're little and they're faced with these things. [00:18:26] And let me just say, it's highly likely their friends aren't doing it. They're going down these paths and it just gives them confidence. And it's free. It's in your home. 

 

Sadly, every one of these things never end. They do not go away. Today you will do laundry and put it away or the dishes. It just is a never-ending joy that is a delight to share with the people next to you.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and Kate, let's just go a bit further with a few of these. Which of the 12 was your favorite and your least favorite?

 

Kay Wyma: Oh gosh. So my favorite, the one that we just loved so much, was the serving.  It happened to fall in December. Again, this wasn't something that I was manipulating or thinking it was going to be a book. I did not have any idea it would be a book. 

 

For some reason I started in January, which I guess is a great place to start new things. [00:19:28] But when we hit December, the task for December was every day you'll do an act of service, and if at all possible, not tell the people, so that it was literally serving. 

 

And it didn't have to be big things. Some of it was that we did as a family together, but a lot of it was little things that seem like they're nothing. Like throwing away the trash at lunch that everybody left out and just quietly doing it and walking on, not making any fanfare. 

 

What that did for each of the children was so, so significant. I've even seen that play out recently in the latest book that I pulled together. Just the power of what comes with doing something for somebody else is so significant. Those absolutely are my favorites.

 

Laura Dugger: And then if you had to choose a least favorite, even if you're grateful that you did it, which one was the most unpleasant?

 

Kay Wyma: Oh, you know, probably the yard work. I just am terrible at it. I hope that some of my kids will really enjoy landscaping and doing beautiful things in their yard, but I just am not really great at it. [00:20:40] That sounds ridiculous because it's just yard work. But you can do the things you don't like and do the things that you don't know. And so that's a great lesson in that.

 

Laura Dugger: And now that you've taught your children those 12 skills, are there any extras that you've added since that initial experiment?

 

Kay Wyma: You know, no. And here's why. As we went through the 12 little aspects that were the skills I wanted them to learn, I learned through that process as I started doing it, it started with the cleaning the rooms and the beds and then it moved into the kitchen. As we added on, then we moved to yard work and then we went to the bathroom. 

 

When I was doing that, I would have them do the skill they learned before. Like, okay, now we're adding to the whole thing this. And I learned in the middle not to do that because it just became so much. I was starting to make it about the tasks. Because I think we gravitate toward that. [00:21:38] Tell me how to do it and I'll do it. If it's going to be success on the other end, then I'm in. So I was sitting there going, wait a second, I'm making this all about these skills. I want to go to the heart. I don't want it to be about a task. 

 

So there was this stepping away from the task aspect. And I want to really hit that home because this isn't something like, if you do these things, then your kids are going to be great. This is a heart issue that's woven within each one of these skill sets that will make... absolutely they're good for you. It's sort of like, you know, in scripture do these things so that it may go well for you. Because there are things that we can literally do that make our life a little bit better.

 

But if I'm making my okayness centered around doing these tasks and getting it done well or being sure my kids can do these tasks and do it well, I've lost sight of the human being in the midst of it. And so it became much less about the task even in the middle of doing it and much more about the person and the heart involved along the way. [00:22:44] 

 

There really haven't been things that we've added because it became so much more of a lifestyle and it still is, which I find interesting now that I have our fourth going into college. Our college experience has been so different just because of the pandemic. And so that these kids were equipped in not just knowing how to do it, but this mentality of, I can do it. It's like it's so ingrained in them that even this kid, I was like, have you contacted your advisor? Like, do you sign up for classes? I have no clue what he's doing because he handles it himself. And he was like, I can do this. I've got this covered, you know, all this kind of stuff. 

 

And I'm sitting there in my head thinking of all the moving parts that come into that. And I'm just telling you, there's fear laced in that too. Well, what if he doesn't sign up? You know, there won't be the classes or does he even know where he's living, all these kinds of things that are very regular. [00:23:49] 

 

And then me letting go of whatever's at the core of that, that makes me have a hard time breathing and be able to lean into. He does have this, he knows that we're here to help him if he's stuck. And then that terrible part of like, and if he fails, I know he'll get back up. And how do I know that? Because I've watched it over and over and over and over. 

 

And the getting back up is huge in being able to navigate life. But to have a getting up experience they've had to have fallen. And so that's hard. That's the greatest gift I got from doing this ridiculous experiment that I really do love is that there were gentle falls all along the way. Gentle. So what if they leave the laundry in and forget to put it in the dryer? How many times have we done that? It's a gentle way to allow them to learn. You're going to mess up in this life and it's okay. We all do. But let me tell you something. You can get up. You know how to. And if you don't, I'm next to you to help you. I'm always next to you. But you got this. [00:25:00] You can do this. You can do so much more than you think you can.

 

Laura Dugger: Thanks to our friend, Joy, The Savvy Sauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1st titled Articles. I hope you check out these new savvy snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy. 

 

Even in the introduction of your book, I just love this quote that Michael says about you because it is so relatable. He writes, "She, like many of us, was hovering over praising, giving up her authority and actually making her children's lives more difficult in the future by making their lives easier now." So if that was the past Kay, how would you describe the changes that occurred in your parenting since you originally came to that realization? [00:26:06] 

 

Kay Wyma: My favorite part of that because even reading that or hearing you say that again, I'm like, "Whoa, there's stuff I don't love in that." And the word that I really land on is authority. Giving up her authority. Which that could be taken my authority over my children. But I think actually the authority was that was being given up was God's authority over all of this. Because I had started to believe that the grades that they made were going to somehow impact them or the team that they were on or the group that they were in or all the things that we look to to be able to make our kids okay. 

 

When we hand them over to these things, we're actually handing them over to the authority of the world's ways. That, more than anything, had the greatest impact on our parenting is realizing that the authority is the King of kings, the One who sees all and knows all, the One who has woven within each one of these children, because they're His unique gifting and purpose. And He has also given us this amazing ability to love them and to walk alongside them because they're a part of us. [00:27:29] 

 

I think that's the biggest change is realizing that the story is a lot bigger than what we can say and that the world's winning ways they don't win and they don't get to win.

 

Laura Dugger: I just love your example. First of all, leading with that humility and seeing how far God's brought you, which is really all of our stories of He takes us, you know, when we come as we are and then transforms us hopefully more and more like Christ every day. But this isn't your story anymore where you're making their lives easier now and then it's difficult in the future. It sounds like you've really flipped that where you put the appropriate amount of pressure on them in the younger years and now you're probably getting to reap some of the benefits.

 

Kay Wyma: Well, what's interesting is that in the younger years, it sounds like you're putting something on their plate, but the truth is they love it. When they're little, their whole fight is like, I'm big. [00:28:26] I can do this. And we're like, "Oh no, no, wait, wait."

 

So, honestly, you're actually putting fuel in their tank by putting these things on their plate. They love it. It's so good. The hard part comes in the snarky years where they're like, well, I'm not doing this anymore. And to be able to sit next to them and genuinely let them work their way through it. I think that's been a big part of this. It's been as much of a lesson for me as it has for them and probably more for me, but it goes back to what we've said at the beginning. It's not doing something to them. It's doing something for them and for us. 

 

It puts a lot of meat on these bones of like, you can do anything you put your mind to, you know? It's not like you can be anybody you want to be or anything like that. But it helps us to be able to see their purpose and to see their gifting and to be able to equip them to live in that purpose and gifting, which is probably not the same as yours. [00:29:31] 

 

A lot of it is genetic, but it's going to be different because it's uniquely theirs. And to be able to equip them to live fully and Holy in this is where you are actually setting them up for joy in the midst of toil.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and now that some of your children have grown and launched, how do they look back on this experiment?

 

Kay Wyma: Believe it or not, grateful. Really grateful. And yeah, me too. They really can do this stuff that they look around and a lot of their friends aren't doing. It has turned down the volume on needing to learn things that they've already learned. Just regular things to be able to function in life. So it allows them to do things... It opens your horizons a bit. 

 

I will say this. I really want to point this out. I was talking to a friend of mine the other night because if you have a lot of kids, and even if you don't, you really might have something in your life and then their life that is traumatic. [00:30:37] And so this becomes a nuanced process with a human being that has experienced trauma. 

 

I don't know, Laura, all the answers of how to do that well, because one of our kids had trauma in their life. And so it's a real fine line. It's like, where am I walking alongside? Where am I stepping in? How do I need to step in? Because I know they can't, because the hurt is very loud. And how do we walk through this landscape of hurt? 

 

It could come in the form... you could actually have trauma have happened. You could have a kid with learning differences. You could have a kid that just has sensory issues or anything that makes them different. You can have your child having lived through extreme bullying or whatever it is in their life. There has to be a certain amount of respect given to these things that have a conversation in their thoughts outside of just regular kid stuff. [00:31:40] 

 

That brings a nuance into it that honestly, I did not know when we started this, because I wouldn't have known. But I know now, even walking alongside a young adult going, where's the nuance? Where's the fine line? Always doing that checking. Because no matter what, these people are in your life forever in the greatest way. And it turns into this very genuine walking alongside, which again is such, such a privilege when you can look back and go, they are equipped. They are equipped. 

 

And that's what this experiment was about, was about equipping. Putting tools in their backpack so they could face things in life and see them as opportunities rather than obstacles.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that you use that word "equipped". I've been reading a little bit in Proverbs this week, and a lot of people are familiar with the Proverbs 31 woman, but I love this Amplified version because I think you trained your kids, you helped equip them. And then it seems like the natural progression is with that discipline and training, that then they know how to equip themselves or be self-disciplined. [00:32:52] 

 

So Proverbs 31:17 says, "She equips herself with strength, spiritual, mental, and physical fitness for her God-given task and makes her arms strong." And I just think this is such a practical example, these 12 things that you focused on that you helped equip your children. And now it sounds like they have the self-discipline and desire to equip themselves, with the Lord's help, of course.

 

Kay Wyma: Yeah, that's the key, which really is none of our... that's the part where it's the Lord's strength because there goes the mystery, not by strength, not by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord. He's saying that. There comes that mystery part of the unseen that is hard to let go of in your kid's life and also in your own.

 

But it is this beautiful aspect of like, there is an equipping part and all that comes with it, which isn't just learning how to do something. It's the perseverance. It's the other centeredness that almost comes with every single task that is woven within it too, which I'm convinced is for us. [00:34:01] It's for us. And how would we ever know it if we didn't do them?

 

Laura Dugger: This book was not the end of your writing journey. 

 

Kay Wyma: No. 

 

Laura Dugger: So where would you direct everyone if they wanted to find or follow you online?

 

Kay Wyma: Well, you can come to kaywyma.com and be bored because sometimes I write on it and sometimes I don't. I'm just kidding. But I do love Instagram #KayWyma on Instagram. I would love for anybody to come and just... life is so much better together always. And I hope if you connect with anything that I do, that it will be a together walking alongside because we're on this planet together for a reason. Life is better together. [00:34:44] 

 

Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to those places so people can join together and learn more. You may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Kay, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Kay Wyma: Well, I have to say that coming out of this project, the Cleaning House, the experiment to rid our home of youth entitlement, the savvy sauce that I got really was purpose. That every single person is uniquely gifted, like a part of the Lord woven in you that is uniquely yours, that He has given you the purpose in gifting. I love it. I love that for myself because it gives you so much freedom, and I love it for my kids because it really has become a fun game to be able to say, What is your purpose in gifting? And how can we practically equip and learn in that giftedness, having to do all the other stuff too, but to really hone in on this purpose that you've got because the joy that comes with it? [00:35:51] I'm so thankful to have seen that through that process. I'm not sure I would have caught it.

 

Laura Dugger: Kay, just a few things that I appreciate from today. I think you're so inspiring. I love how this overflow of your sweet relationship with the Lord just comes forth in the way that you parent and your positivity and your enthusiasm and everything that you've shared with us today. I think you've given us a lot of good starting places. And then you've also given us your savvy sauce. You've given us purpose in that, that we know we can do it with the Lord and do it together, and that it really is a blessing in parenting. So thank you for being my guest today.

 

Kay Wyma: Well, thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. [00:36:52] Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:37:57] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:39:03] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

163. Beneficial Rhythms in Marriage with Chris and Jenni Graebe

 

“Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom.” Psalm 90:12 (NIV)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What marital habits are worthy of prioritizing for the two of you and what return have you seen on this investment?

2. How can couples begin to take inventory of their current marriage and then move towards purposefully implementing healthier rhythms into their relationship?

3. What are some examples of ways the two of you serve each other and stay committed to one another’s well-being and flourishing?

 

Chris and Jenni Graebe are lifelong learners intent on discovering the core rhythms of thriving relationships. Chris and Jenni are the cohosts of The Live it Well podcast, where they interview countless couples to discover what makes relationships thrive. They live deep in the trees of Franklin, TN, with their five children.

 

Chris and Jenni's Website

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Rhythm of Us

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

163. Beneficial Rhythms in Marriage with Chris and Jenni Graebe

 

“Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom.” Psalm 90:12 (NIV)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What marital habits are worthy of prioritizing for the two of you and what return have you seen on this investment?

2. How can couples begin to take inventory of their current marriage and then move towards purposefully implementing healthier rhythms into their relationship?

3. What are some examples of ways the two of you serve each other and stay committed to one another’s well-being and flourishing?

 

Chris and Jenni Graebe are lifelong learners intent on discovering the core rhythms of thriving relationships. Chris and Jenni are the cohosts of The Live it Well podcast, where they interview countless couples to discover what makes relationships thrive. They live deep in the trees of Franklin, TN, with their five children.

 

Chris and Jenni's Website

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Rhythm of Us

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

First, I want to say happy birthday to my sweet mom. She is the most loving, nurturing, and kind-hearted mom, and we want to honor her on her special day. So, from our editor, Natalie, and myself, happy birthday, mom. We love you. 

 

I now also get to host a charming couple today, and we're going to talk about one of my favorite topics, healthy rhythms in marriage.

 

Chris and Jenni Graebe are my guests, and they love each other well, model what they teach to others, and they've written down their wisdom in a marriage book they recently released. [00:01:26] I hope this chat leaves you encouraged and equipped with conversation starters and thought-provoking questions to ask yourself and your spouse as you enjoy all the goodness God has to offer us in marriage. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Chris and Jenni. 

 

Chris Graebe: Hey.

 

Jenni Graebe: Thank you so much for having us, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, so excited to talk with the two of you. Will you both just give a glimpse of your current phase of life? 

 

Jenni Graebe: Oh, sure. It's a wild season of life for us. We have five kids ranging from four to 16, one boy and four girls. So we've got two teenagers and three little ones, and it is just a beautiful, chaotic season.

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah, filled with a lot of carpooling and running around, but just stealing away moments of just fun and trying as best we can to soak up all the different seasons collectively together. Like last night we had the opportunity to sit on our back porch where the kids played and laughed and danced and had the cafe lights on. [00:02:28] You know, those are the moments. So that's a quick glimpse into our world. There may be a lot too many dishes in the sink, but, you know, other than that, it's a good life. 

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Can you share a little bit more about your careers too? Because you've been on this path of, in your marriage, moving around multiple times, so your seasons have looked different. But what do the two of you do for work?

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah, sure. I mean, look, you know, when Jenni married me, you're going to talk about this book we've written, but one of the things we talk about is this idea of adventure. So when we got married, she knew she was signing up for adventure, and so we decided just let's go for it.

 

So we've lived all over the place, both of the coast, the middle of the country, a lot of time in Texas. Throughout those seasons, it was seasons of ministry and entrepreneurship. In my very early days, I was on this little TV network called MTV. I was on a show called Road Rules. Jenni was a singer in those days, and she was wearing pleather pants. [00:03:29] 

 

Jenni Graebe: Let's not mention the pleather pants. You know, let's be nice.

Chris Graebe: So we've just had this wild ride. And so now where we find ourselves is, obviously, we have a podcast called The Rhythm of Us. We're authors. We did this book, The Rhythm of Us, you know, I'm an entrepreneur through and through, so I've got a couple ventures that I'm working on. So there's never a dull moment in our life.

 

Jenni Graebe: Never a dull moment, for sure.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, it sounds very full. We won't digress too much, but I'm sure everybody asks, how did you get on Road Rules? 

 

Chris Graebe: Is it weird to say Jesus? I mean, it's like, I don't know. Did God do that? 

 

Jenni Graebe: It was a God deal.

 

Chris Graebe: It was totally a God deal, you know. I mean, my whole thing was... as a kid growing up in the 80s and 90s, MTV was at the height, was at the pinnacle. It was the early reality show before all the spinoffs had come, and I just... I don't know, God had wired me to ultimately I sit in front of a microphone now, and, you know, obviously through this and various different places He's put me on stages throughout my career. But as a young, influential whatever, you want to change the world. [00:04:33] And so, like, what's a place I could go that could happen and I don't have to have a lot of skills? I could just go be crazy on MTV.

 

So anyway, luckily I had encountered Jesus right before I went on the show and had the opportunity to share my faith and my walk and just hopefully honor God throughout that adventure. So that's how that worked. It was a wild ride. But, you know, those days are gone that people stop me on the street and go, were you the guy from...? So I don't get a lot of those anymore. 

 

Laura Dugger: Which I'm sure with that transition into marriage that was a very unique element for the two of you. 

 

Jenni Graebe: It was. 

 

Laura Dugger: It was for sure. 

 

Chris Graebe: Well, yeah. I mean, you know, the funny thing is, just to kind of talk about the idea of adventure, is I had done a couple little challenges. They have these big challenges return thing, and they called me and said, "Hey, we've got this challenge, Battle of the Sexes 2. Do you want to be a cast member on it?" I was like, "Heck yeah, that'd be awesome." 

 

Well, we were engaged, and we were planning to get married. [00:05:31] We had a date on the calendar and everything, and they were like, "Hey, we picked you." And I'm like, "Oh, cool, when's the show?" They're like, "Well, it starts two weeks before your marriage." I was like, "Oh, for my wedding day?" "Yeah." "Okay. How's that going to work?" So I went and filmed for two weeks. Jenni was a trooper. I hadn't gotten kicked off yet, so I flew back that weekend. We got married, and then I went back to the show for three days.

 

And then just said, "Kick me off. I've got to go be with my bride." But yeah, it was an adventure from the beginning, that's for sure. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Well, you've documented some of that journey, because your marriage book is fantastic. 

 

Jenni Graebe: Oh, thank you. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, I mean that. It's called Rhythms of Us: Creating the Thriving Marriage You Long For. So because you wrote the book on it, I'd love to know what marital habits are worthy of prioritizing for the two of you and what return have you seen on that investment?

 

Jenni Graebe: That's a great question. [00:06:31] Really, the whole idea of this book is not just cataloging the rhythms that are true of us, but also of the wise people around us. We've been married 17 years, and that is a good amount of time. But also, we have been blessed with so many couples that God has put in our life that have a lot of fruit in their lives. 

 

They're the kind of couples that just stop you in their tracks, because they're still somehow wildly in love after decades of marriage. And those are the kind of people that we want to learn from, we want to sit with, we want to lean into learning their rhythms. 

 

So we try to find that balance in this book of finding those rhythms that are true, not just of us, but of the couples in our lives that have incredible marriages. And how can we find the top five rhythms that really have carried them and base the book around those? So that's what we did. We found five rhythms that are true of those couples and that have brought a lot of fruit in our marriage as well, and based it around those. [00:07:32] 

 

Laura Dugger: And on page 14, you write, "Before we can fill our lives with the rhythms we value most, it's important to identify the practices we don't." Now that makes me curious, what are some examples of practices that you've realized you don't value and you don't want to value?

 

Jenni Graebe: That's a great question. I think there's so many. After 17 years, there's been a lot of ups and downs, obviously. We talk about in the book that there are certain rhythms, certain habits that might be good in the beginning of your marriage, but after 17 years and five kids, we have to shift. We have to look at our lives and ask, Okay, is this good for us now? What are some of those things that we need to let go of that used to bring fruit in our lives, but they're no longer bringing fruit? 

 

That could be anything from spending all day Saturday going to play basketball with friends at the gym. That was fine when we were first married because it was just the two of us. But now with five kids, giving up a whole Saturday of family time to go play basketball with friends is just not a rhythm that would bring life to us, to our marriage, or to our family. [00:08:42] So that's something that we needed to let go of.

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah. I mean, you could equate it to somebody listening here thinking like, you know, golf is great. People love golf, but I can't imagine telling Jenni, Hey, I'm going to leave for five hours on these two days where our kids aren't in school and we all have each other. I'm not saying that you don't go play basketball here and there, or golf here and there. But I think it's just starting to acknowledge like, Hey, you know, this season has changed. Our seasons have changed. Our kids have different needs. Our marriage has different needs. What is that thing that... you know, we talk about where rhythms become ruts in the book? You know, what are some of those things that have kind of become a rut and aren't really bringing life to our marriage?

 

At the end of the day, hopefully the longer you're in this thing, the more you start to take your eyes off yourself. Because, you know, we got married at 24, you know. It's like your still eyes are pretty much on yourself. So we've been working through that over 17 years and still plenty to go. 

 

But you start to appreciate the moments you have with your family, the same you did with basketball, if not more, especially as you have teenagers that start to getting close to exiting the building. [00:09:49] You're like, Oh my gosh, I've got two years left with this kid. And it's a really crazy dynamic to then turn and look at the 4-year-old and go, I know how fast this is going to go. This is just as important as basketball or golf. Those things are great. But how do I cherish these moments just like I cherish those and find these new rhythms in a new season?

 

Laura Dugger: I think that you're just bringing to life 1 Corinthians 13. And I'm just going to paraphrase. I do not have it memorized. But as we're talking about hobbies for either spouse, it says something about when I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things. 

 

Jenni Graebe: Right. 

 

Laura Dugger: To me, it doesn't mean that golf or basketball are childish. But like you're saying, you're choosing what that is the love chapter. So you're choosing love and others over some hobby that only benefits you at that time. So then it sounds like these rhythms they're transferring to still maybe you enjoy those recreational things, but you do this more together. [00:10:48] 

 

So I'm wondering, though, for the couple listening, maybe they're on more of a parallel trajectory, and whether they have kids in the home or not, how do you recommend they start to make these discoveries? First of, what rhythms are in their life currently that are not beneficial?

 

Jenni Graebe: Yeah, there's a great tool that we talk about in the book that actually comes from one of our favorite psychologists, Dr. Henry Cloud. And it's called Find the Misery and Make a Rule, which sounds very lofty, but it's very simple. All it means is that you take a look at your life and you recognize those pain points that keep showing up over and over and over. And then you follow the trail of that to the root.

 

If you can, you can try to set a limit or make a rule there to keep that from happening. This is something that we use constantly in our lives, from big things to small things. I'll give you a couple examples. 

 

One of the things that kept coming up in our marriage pretty early on was that as a stay-at-home mom with a bunch of little kids that I absolutely love and adore and that I was grateful to spend my weeks with, come Thursday, I was absolutely exhausted. [00:11:59] I was ready for a break, and it showed in the way that I was living my life.

 

Chris Graebe: No, no, it was fine.

 

Jenni Graebe: It was something that we could all recognize. To make a rule against that exhaustion coming out against my family, Chris very lovingly said, "Hey, every Friday we're going to start something. You need to go and just get a couple hours just by yourself to fill back up. Do whatever brings you life, whatever refuels your tank." 

 

And for me, that usually looks like going and finding a pretty trail out in the trees that I can walk. It looks like spending time with the Lord at a coffee shop where I can just think complete thoughts without interruptions. And I'm telling you, that has made the biggest difference in our life, in our marriage. I always come back a better mom, I always come back a better spouse, and just feeling more alive and ready to jump back in with time with my family. [00:12:58] 

 

But it took us really examining our life and our rhythms to go, Okay, let's just look at this. Every Thursday I am feeling exhausted. I'm feeling miserable. I'm feeling like I need something to change here. And then putting a rule in place where, Okay, this is something that we can practice, that we can prioritize as a family so that you can thrive as well.

 

Chris Graebe: Another example just for everybody listening is, you know, you hear all these people have a lot of issues with family, like extended family. Like, okay, you get married, you get in, and it's like, Oh, okay, we've got 15 things we have to go through for Thanksgiving. We have to go to this house for Thanksgiving and this house, and they'll be so mad if we don't do X, Y, and Z.

 

I think one of the things we kind of established early on, I don't know if it was like we kind of knew how intentional it was being, but we just decided to put some boundaries there and go like, Look, everyone loves each other. We're all for each other. We can't make everyone happy all the time. So what's the best thing we can do? What are some boundaries or some rules or some principles we can put in place that for our family is a rule that we can follow and then go, Hey, rest of the family, we love you and we look forward to seeing you. We have a blast when we're together. [00:14:07] But here's some boundaries we're setting in place. Because sometimes you can find a lot of misery in that you're trying to please everyone, make everyone happy, get on time with this person's house. Like you have gifts for everybody, you know, the whole thing. It just can be wild.

 

I'm sure everyone listening has no clue what I'm talking about in this regard, but it's definitely... that's just another practical example of how you can find the misery, make a rule. Ultimately it brings life for yourself, your spouse and everyone involved when you're able to kind of put the right rules in place and operate in essence the way God's called you to walk. 

 

Laura Dugger: These are such wise principles. And I love how you say that the two of you examined your rhythms. What did that actually look like? I'm wondering, did you go on a date night to do this? Is this after the kids are in bed? But how did you do it and how can other couples begin to take inventory of their marriage and then move toward purposefully implementing healthier rhythms into their relationship? [00:15:03] 

 

Jenni Graebe: That's a great question. Actually, the last part of the book is just this exactly. There are three sections walking you through different questions that you can ask each other that really help you pinpoint the rhythms that bring you both life. There's a section in there where you can talk through the vision that you both have for your marriage so that you make sure you're actually trying to head in the right direction and you're going the same place. You're not having two separate different visions of your marriage and then wondering why the other one can't get on the same page. So that is really helpful.

 

I think for us, we love talking. We have a podcast where we talk to guests and all kinds of things, but we've always enjoyed just talking with each other and having great conversations. So, for us, that looks like at least a couple of times a week, you can find us in the mornings with our hot cups of coffee in our chairs, having a great talk.

 

That is usually where we really hash through some of these things that are coming up in our hearts, in our lives, in our family, where we examine, you know, things that have come up during the week, whether it's a rut or rhythm. [00:16:09] 

 

You know, there's definitely room to talk about the great things that are happening in our life. Like Chris mentioned, sitting outside with our kids watching them play underneath the cafe lights. That brings us so much life. We're like, We've got to do this more. We have to make space for this more so that we can enjoy this. 

 

And there's also pain points that we can talk through like, okay, Hey, when you came in the door this week on your phone, that really stole away from us getting you all to ourselves. So let's put a rhythm in place or let's put a rule in place where, all right, you can finish up all of your work stuff before you walk in the door so that we can just have you all to ourselves as soon as you come to the door.

 

Chris Graebe: We are trying to give people a framework where they can have an honest, open conversation and nobody's pointing the finger. Because when I asked the question, are you in rhythm or are you out of rhythm, people can immediately go, Well, you know what? We're in rhythm on budgeting, but we're really out of rhythm on communication or we're out of rhythm and intimacy, but we're in rhythm on working together with the kids. [00:17:07] 

 

So really this book and the way we're approaching it and the idea of giving someone a framework is everyone is wired so differently. But if we can all come from this place to go, "Look, you're not the problem. I'm not the problem. This thing is out of rhythm. Now let's work together and have whatever the framework is that works best for us as a couple." The longer we're married, the more we understand. Don't talk to him at night cause he's sleepy. Don't try and catch her at the very beginning, right when she's waking up before she's had her coffee. Learn those spots where you can have that healthy conversation. 

 

Some people need prep. Some people want to just dive in and talk. You start to understand that then you can really craft and go, Okay, I think we're out of rhythm over here. 

 

You know, maybe one agrees or don't, but you did have a framework to say, well, let's just work through it and see how we can find ourselves back in rhythm so we both feel like we're thriving in this area of our marriage. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you use that word "thriving". And I think that's really important because this model that you're laying out, to me, it sounds like such an exciting way to naturally minimize conflict while maximizing delight. [00:18:11] You're just being more intentional about how you spend your time in your lives together. 

 

We won't go through all the rhythms because people have to read the book to get that. But one of them is speaking life. I'd just love to hear how the two of you practice that valued rhythm of speaking life.

 

Jenni Graebe: This is this idea of choosing intentionally to speak words of life over your marriage, over your spouse, and then eventually over your family when you have kids or if you do. It's so important. Really, just like the Bible says, we have the power to choose blessing or cursing. We have the power to create that culture in our marriage by the words that we speak.

 

This was something that Chris really did early on in our marriage, very naturally. And I talk about in the book how this was so hard for me to do at first because I just didn't grow up in a family where we did that. [00:19:11] We thought lots of wonderful things about each other, but we didn't actually speak them out loud a lot.

 

And so if you're not used to it, it can be kind of awkward at first. But over time, learning how to do that and seeing how easy it was for Chris and how much it meant to him. When I just took the time to speak out loud, the wonderful things I was already thinking about him, he just needed to hear that. And I needed to become the kind of person that could speak those words out loud to him. It changed me as well as I practiced it, and it shaped me to become the kind of person who could look for the good, look for the gifting in him, and speak it out loud.

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah. I imagine people are wondering, okay, we're really weak in this area of our marriage or whatever. Maybe the words we speak to each other are maybe snide, funny comments, or whatever. But this whole life thing, what do I do? Walk in, You are beautiful and wonderfully made. Not that. 

 

The way it can play itself out is pretty simple. Like there's a moment where I'll catch her eye and we're sitting there at the dinner table and I just think to myself, man, she is so beautiful and I just stop and tell our kids, my guys, do you know how unbelievable beautiful and amazing your mom is? [00:20:25] And in that moment they're like, we know you always tell us. I'm like, that's right. You're never going to not hear me say that. 

 

But in that moment, it's something I'm doing public in front of the kids or whatever, you know, but it's the seeds that are being sown all across the place for her, for them, that hopefully the example for their future spouse, that they will find someone that tells them that they are beautiful and lovely and thank them for the work that they're doing that no one sees, you know, when it's like, Hey, thank, thank you so much for doing the laundry today because, one, I hate the laundry, and two, this doesn't just get done by itself.

 

A lot of times that's just a thankless thing that no one sees. The kids are running up one, mom, thank you so much for doing my laundry today. Sometimes they do. But most of the times it's just like, oh, cool, there's magical clothes that show back up in this drawer. I think if we think it and we say it, it can start really practical, Hey, thank you so much. Depending on if you're in a rough spot in your marriage. Hey, I just want to say thank you for providing for us, for showing up every day and doing your job. [00:21:27] 

 

And then you'll be amazed how that unlocks the heart just a little bit of someone who maybe is in this like couples, it's been in a tough spot and they haven't spoken life to each other in a really long time. You just like, okay, let's just type little what can I find that, that they're doing that I value and I appreciate. I'm going to speak this life and I'm going to sow a seed that's going to continue to crack the door just a little bit more. And you'll be amazed what reciprocation comes on the other side of that. It's going to take a little bit of practice, but once you get into it, you'll never want to stop.

 

Jenni Graebe: Yeah. I want to take a minute too, and just acknowledge that I get that there are moments in a marriage or there are seasons where it's really hard to find anything good to speak out loud, whatever the circumstances, whatever has led you there. I know there are really hard seasons in a marriage. And you might be listening thinking, I can't think of one nice thing to say about my spouse. 

 

And I just want to encourage you there that what you lack, pray for. I love that's what the Bible says. [00:22:27] I just think that so many times. Like, what you lack, pray for it. Just ask God. The best place to start is prayer. Just ask God to help you see your spouse as he does. And there is always something good, even if it's small, just like Chris said, there is always something good that you can acknowledge. 

 

In the book, we talk about three ways to do this. You can affirm the good, you can affirm the gift and you can affirm the truth. What that simply means is that you affirm the good by exactly what Chris said, just whatever good that you can possibly see as you're asking for God to give you eyes to see that, just speak it out loud.

 

If they're playing with the kids, just say, "Oh my gosh, you're such a great dad. Thanks for, thanks for being incredible. Thanks for playing with our kids." If they're doing the ditches, even if it's not the way that you would like them done, you can say, "Hey, thanks for helping out. That really means a lot." You affirm whatever good you see around you.

 

You can also take this to another level by affirming the gift in your spouse. Affirm the gifts and abilities and talents that you see. [00:23:29] Every single human has these things. God has given us all gifts and abilities. And how powerful for you as their spouse, the most important person in their life to be the one to acknowledge those things and to water those seeds that you see of gifting and dreams and abilities.

 

If you see that their eyes light up whenever they do something, you can say, Wow, I noticed like you just come alive doing this. Maybe there's something there. Maybe God's given you, you know, an ability here. What can we do to grow this and to water this? 

 

Maybe every time you drive by a restaurant, they say, Oh man, wouldn't it be great to open a restaurant someday? You have the choice in that moment to either go, "Yeah, whatever," or say, "Tell me more about this. Is this a dream that you have? Like, is there something here that we could pursue together as a couple? You know?" So that's just an example of finding the gifting and affirming the gift. 

 

And then the last one, which I think might be the most powerful, is affirming the truth. [00:24:31] So in hard seasons, when your spouse might not be acting the way that you wish they would or the way that they used to, you know who they truly are. You can ask God to remind you who they truly are. And then you can affirm who you know them to be instead of how they're acting. 

 

I love what Henry Cloud says. That maturity in life and in marriage is being able to separate the people that we love from the behaviors that we don't. So in those seasons, we can look at how they're acting and we can separate that from who we really truly know them to be. And we can speak to that person. We can speak to the potential instead of to the behavior.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:25:16] <music>

 

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[00:26:33] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I love everything you're saying. I want to take it a step further because you've talked about the words that we can speak and how we can do this publicly and privately, and how really it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where what you're seeing and calling out and speaking over your spouse, you get to see that rise up in them. That's the verbal part. But then the actionable part of serving each other, I'd love to hear some more of your practical examples. So what are ways that the two of you serve each other and stay committed to one another's well-being and flourishing? 

 

Chris Graebe: I think that's one of these things... you know, Jenni talks about how, you know, speaking life and words, it wasn't really a thing for her. Serving was definitely Achilles heel for me. We got married at 24. Like I said, my eyes were pretty much fixed on myself and the idea of going and changing the world through career and all that. 

 

So we had a kid pretty early on in our marriage and our son Caden, it was like, okay, well, we both agree you're going to stay home with him and I'm going to go out and do whatever. [00:27:39] The story is pretty typical for most. But I think through a season through over the season years and Jenni just like being so faithful and just so kind and generous with her time and patient with me is I'm like, maybe we're going to try this. Let's do that. 

 

You talked about early in the beginning of the podcast, we moved across the country. We did. We moved all over the world, you know, all over the country. And it was fun and it was great. That was a part of Jenni serving me and some of the dreams and visions I had. 

 

But I think the longer we're in this game and the more I continue to take my eyes off myself and look at her, yes, practically can play itself out in day-to-day tasks and chores. Like what needs to be done? You know, these dishes aren't going to be done by themselves. You need to do that. It also plays itself out and going like, Hey, just like we talk about the Fridays, like, Hey, I need you to have this Friday or whatever. 

 

But the other thing is kind of what Jenni was talking about is this idea that there is this person that God has gifted you with. This person that He said, yeah, that's your spouse. And you said yes to them as well. [00:28:37] And marriage is such a gift. And the fact that somebody else said yes to you and they said yes to you again today because they showed up and they're there. Now, like Jenni said, it can be tough. 

 

I think part of serving that we started to discover is like when I took my eyes off myself, I was able to look at Jenny and say, Hey, what are your dreams? What are the things that are inside of you that I can help bring to life and see become a reality? 

 

That was something that I think... once that started to happen and she stepped into some things like the podcast we did and now we're writing this book, I think she even didn't even realize that there was something there that God had put inside her that she needed to do. And she kind of looked at me after one of our first podcasts and was like, don't ever let me not do something like this again. Don't ever let me not put my hands to something that I feel like I'm stepping into. 

 

It's scary and it's challenging, but it's just amazing for me. On the other side is I served her and asked, you know, what is her dreams? And then seeing her step in and thrive, it was just truly a moment. [00:29:38] So there's just multiple ways we can serve our spouse. It's in the day-to-day. And then a lot of times it's in the dreamings, but at the same time, just recognizing them as such a gift from God is really true of the first step.

 

Jenni Graebe: Jan Peterson has a really small, great book on serving. That was kind of her gifting. But she says we all start off self-centered. Our wants are our world. That's just natural. And so it takes a lot of time and intentionality to learn a different way to live. 

 

But what we say in the book is that, you know, no marriage can thrive when our eyes are consistently focused on ourselves. That is just a fact. If I continue to live ignoring my spouse's needs, that will eventually explode. Our marriage will not last if I'm not also considering his needs as well as mine. 

 

Actually, the greatest joy is found when we are able to do just that, when we're able to shift our eyes from our own wants and needs to actually noticing and nurturing the needs of our spouse. 

 

There's something we talk about in the book called the cycle of serving. So essentially, what that looks like is when we take a small step of noticing a need in our spouse that we can serve, shifting our eyes from our own needs, and we start to meet those needs. [00:30:56] Step by step, we move towards this place of strength and thriving in our marriage where we look up and go, how did I get so blessed to have this spouse? And I'm constantly looking at how I can meet their needs, and I'm so grateful that they're meeting my needs. It's wonderful. 

 

Then the opposite is true as well, where if by step by step, over time, we make the choice to neglect our spouse's needs or to think only of ourselves, over time, where we end up is, man, I wish they would just wake up and meet my needs. And if you have thought that to yourself lately, it's a good indicator that you are at the bottom of that cycle. 

 

But the good news is we are always one step away from moving back in the right direction towards the thriving marriage that we long for. And it all starts with just taking a moment to get my eyes off myself and noticing who my spouse is, how God's wired them, and how I can meet their needs in that place. [00:31:55] 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. As you're saying all of this, it seems like oftentimes the wife, especially in this situation that you're talking about, when she chooses to stay home with the kids, she is all in for supporting her husband's dreams and desires. And yet, Chris, you did an incredible job of humbly looking to her as well and calling out Jenni for she still has gifts that are beyond the children and maybe beyond the marriage that God has given her. 

 

So you called that to life, but you helped her develop it. So would you just speak to the husbands now and talk about that responsibility and that privilege and the goodness that you've seen from committing to helping her pursue growth? 

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah. I wish I could say, like, from day one, I was like, oh, man. But I think, you know, with anything, as we grew deeper together and walked through some hard seasons and different things like that, it was just like, wow. [00:32:55] Like, my love and my appreciation, my value for her just continued to increase. 

 

You know, we had a season early on where we got pregnant, and then I think she was just going, like, you know, what about me? What about my identity? God put a season where things were tough, and so she had to kinda get a job. I was working during the night. She was working during the days. And I think it was a moment where she just said, "Okay. You know what? You go work. We'll stay home." That was kind of a gift that God gave us. And we didn't know, you know, is this forever kind of thing, but we just kinda dove headlong, five kids. I mean, we were in the thick of it. 

 

But I think there's this place where it's like I look around at my wife and she'd be leading things at church and... she just was a magnet. People would be drawn to her. Jenni talked about giftings. I mean, she just got a lot of giftings. She's the one with the college degree. She's the smart one. You know? 

 

For me, I think I just had to stop and look and go, Hey, you know what? How can I continue to ask? [00:33:52] There'd be seasons she's like, "No. I love this. This is great. This is exactly where we are." And I don't even know if she really even had words to say, "Hey, this season's coming." 

 

But I think the more we pray and God starts to stir, right, I think there's that thing. Like you said, if you're listening, fellas, if you're listening to what she's saying and you're looking at what's happened in your life, and maybe there's some margin coming in her life or maybe you need to help create that margin in her life and go, you know what? Before we got married, you had these skills, you have these giftings, and you maybe haven't tapped into it for years now, but now you've got all this life experience and you've been leading this Bible study over here or whatever that looks like. Maybe you're a fitness trainer, whatever that is and however it plays out in her life, you know, just kinda stoke the fires a little bit. Just kinda see if you can spark.

 

Just throw a spark out there and go, does this catch? Is this something God wants? Are we hitting a bunch of doors here? Are we trying to force something? But then, ultimately, you can go like, "No. I think that's it." And then you'll be amazed at what happens inside of her when she goes, "Maybe that is it. Oh my gosh. I wasn't even thinking about that, but here we are."  [00:34:54] 

 

Then you can kind of fan that into flame and say, yeah, now this is something here. And maybe nothing comes of it. But the fact that you can sit across from her and say, I see you. I hear you. I see the giftings inside of you. Is there anything else that you've got a desire for? Because she may not even know she has it, or she may have it just waiting for you to actually ask. And then guess what? Once you know and once you hear, then you're responsible, and you gotta figure out how to help bring that to life. And you can do it through baby steps. Doesn't mean you mortgage the house to go, okay, well, let's put $50,000 on the house so you can start this business. Just seek God. Do it together. Be prayerful. 

 

Guys, challenge, push, encourage, in the right way, and you watch what will happen to your spouse. She will fall more in love with you and be more appreciative. Even if nothing happens, she'll go, "Wow. This person actually truly loves me. He's not just thinking of themselves." 

 

Laura Dugger: What I hear you saying, Chris, is that you noticed Jenni. You asked her about these things continuously. You would start these conversations. And then you also took it a step further, and you felt the responsibility to act on that. And I think that is such a great model. [00:36:08] 

 

You also write about something related on page 70 where you say, "Thriving couples are thoroughly interested in each other's lives." So what do you two think keeps us from focusing on each other's needs on a regular basis? 

 

Jenni Graebe: I mean, I think our wants are our world. That's just how we naturally function. So it does take time and intentionality to start learning to live differently. I think something that Chris does really well and I'm so grateful for and that we've come to practice together is just making room for each other's dreams. 

 

You know, like he talked about not just acknowledging them and encouraging them, but putting action behind that by making room for it and making it a priority in our life together. There are a thousand different ways that we can choose to live our life. 

 

So I show my husband that I believe in him and his dreams by making space for him to do some of those things that cause him to come alive. We talk about in the book that the research actually shows that we are most enamored with and drawn to our spouse when we're able to see them doing that thing, whatever their thing is that makes them come alive. [00:37:18] 

 

There is not a spouse in the world who won't be drawn to their spouse in that setting, whatever it is for them that they do that causes them, you know, their eyes to sparkle and for them to just come alive. We all love seeing our spouse in those environments where they can do that. So then it becomes our responsibility to make room for them to say yes to some of those things. 

 

An example that we talk about in the book is when Chris travels for work, anybody who has kids in the house or their spouse travels, you know when you're single parenting it at home, it can be tough, and you kind of, at least I do, I ration out my energy for each day and I know how much I'm going to need to be able to keep up with the energy of these energetic toddlers that are running around our house. 

 

It was a week like that, and we were coming to the end of the week. Chris had been gone for three days and I knew he was going to be home that night. So I had reserved just enough energy in the tank to make sure that I was keeping up with these kids. [00:38:18] 

 

And I got a call from Chris and he said, "Hey, babe, listen, before I tell you what's going on, I just want you to know, if you say, no, I need you at home, I will absolutely jump on a plane and I'll be home. But I have this opportunity." And he was given the opportunity to go and interview Mike Tyson and Dennis Rodman in this... take a private jet there. It was just like this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 

 

And, of course, I know for him, this is what he does. He is so good at hosting. If you give him the mic, he comes alive being able to lean into conversations and talk with people and navigate those settings. I have seen it a million times, and I love watching him do it. It makes him come alive, and it draws me to him as his spouse. 

 

So my reaction was absolutely, "Please go do that. And we're going to be cheering you on at home." I knew it wasn't going to be easy for me. There were sacrifices that I was going to have to make because I was out of energy. So I had to come up with a different plan moving forward so that he could do that. [00:39:20] But I knew the value in it. I knew he was gonna come back on cloud nine, and we were gonna get the joy of watching him do something that he's made to do. So that's just an example. 

 

Chris Graebe: I mean, you know, sitting across from Mike Tyson in that moment was really amazing. But it is true. I mean, that's a moment. That's an Instagram picture. Right? And it moves on. But the beauty is that I know that I've got this partner, this teammate in my beautiful wife that's like, Hey, let's go on an adventure. It only just stores up so much in the bank, and it makes me just so thankful in those moments because there's gonna be a moment when she calls and goes, Hey, I've got this adventure in front of me, and I can't wait to say yes to it. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. And I have to just give a shout out to my husband, Mark, as well. I feel like he models and leads this so well and so selflessly. Even today, this is how it looked. I guess last night, we thought one of our daughters was coming down with something, and so instantly, I'm texting the babysitter and keeping her posted about today, and I was looking forward to this recording. [00:40:28] And I started thinking, "Okay, how am I going to reschedule?" And he, right away, said, "Babe, I will change my plans around with work. I'm going to make sure this happens. I will absolutely keep the kids. You've got this on the calendar. It's important. I wanna help you in that." And all is well. God answered prayers. She's totally fine. No fever or anything. 

 

Jenni Graebe: That's awesome. 

 

Laura Dugger: I'm grateful that this worked, but I'm so glad to know that does make me more drawn to him and more aware of ways I can then also turn to him and see what I can be doing to take a load off his shoulders or to make his life easier or just to support his dreams. So I think it is a really great cycle. And when someone goes first, it's really hard not to follow after them. 

 

Hey, everyone. By now, I hope you've checked out our articles that are available at thesavvysauce.com. And if you sign up to join our email list, you'll enjoy free ideas and encouragement delivered straight to your inbox. [00:41:32] 

 

Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So the freebies will oftentimes include questions you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your sexual intimacy in marriage, or questions to ask yourself to promote spiritual growth. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the articles tab. 

 

Well, what has God taught you both about the application of Psalm 90:12, which says, "Teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom." 

 

Jenni Graebe: Well, that's one of my favorite verses. I love that. Chris and I were talking about this verse last night preparing for this, you know, that numbering our days means remembering that they're a gift. Right? It means practicing the rhythm of awe that we talk about in our book. It means remembering, wow, every moment that I've been given is a gift from God, and I wanna make it count. [00:42:31] And I love that it starts by saying, teach us. Right? Teach us to number our days. Because we have to be taught. This doesn't come naturally to us. But it's something we have to cry out to the Lord for. Teach us, Lord, to number our days, to make them count, to live a life of gratitude back to You by enjoying this life that You've given me, by making the most of it, by cherishing my spouse, by cherishing my kids, by contributing to my community. You know, that's what it means to us. Numbering our days means remembering they're all a gift. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, then I think also of times that things aren't going well, how do we know when we're reaching our breaking point, and how can we identify when our spouse is maybe nearing the same place? 

 

Chris Graebe: I think that just comes from, again, taking our eyes off ourself and looking at the situation, understanding what produces stress in our spouse, and also understanding the stress tolerance of our spouses. Like, sometimes, for me, I kinda like stressful situations, but that doesn't mean that everyone around me isn't in the fetal position in the corner because I'm like, This is amazing. It's like, wait, wait, wait, hold on, man. Let's think about everyone in this scenario. [00:43:43] 

 

I think when you find yourself in those seasons and spots, I think if we can go, okay, what do I know that is the where we can go and we can kinda just connect, have a conversation? You know, we gotta get to that place where we earn trust and we're going, Hey, I see this happening here. Does this feel right to you? Does this seem true to you? We definitely seem like we're out of rhythm over here. Here's what I'm able to do to contribute to this, to help, you know, serve you in this way. And then you don't know what kind of the reciprocation of that's gonna be. Maybe they need a minute. You know? 

 

Some of us can forgive right away and go, "Hey. Are we good?" And others are like, "No. No. I need a little bit of time here. You had a season where you've had your eyes on yourself or whatever." 

 

One of the things I really like, we talked with the [00:44:29 Double Dams?]. [00:44:29] They're just such a great couple, and they talk about this idea. They get down at the end of the week or multiple times to go, Hey, was this team Sarah or team-

 

Jenni Graebe: Steve. 

 

Chris Graebe: Steve. You know, this is more team Steve this week, or last week was more team Sarah, but is it team us? Are we kind of walking in tandem together? I think as long as there's that trust there that everyone can go, well, no. I mean, the last year has been about team Steve. You know? That's when you get in a tough spot. 

 

So if you can have that place and kind of find those boundaries, then you can say, Hey, what can I do in this moment to change our circumstances and our situation? They may respond a certain way, but if you come with a posture of servanthood knowing that, you know, if we posture ourselves like Christ and we serve that, you know, that's what we're supposed to be doing. We may not always love the reception we get or the answer we get on the side, but you can do what you can to make sure your heart's in the right spot, not doing to get, but just doing because you said yes to this person. [00:45:30] You agreed to be their teammate, their partner, and walk alongside them no matter what's going on in life. 

 

Laura Dugger: And inevitably, there will be times when we don't get all of this right. So during those times, how do you two practice and model confession both with one another and with your children? 

 

Jenni Graebe: I think that's so important, you know, to be able to find that posture of humility and to admit when we're wrong. One of the things we talk about in the book is that change only begins with honesty. Right? So we can only change to the degree that we're willing to be honest about where we are, about where we've wronged our spouse, and about where we're hurting. 

 

What we don't want to communicate is that you just cherry-pick everything and everything's, you know, roses and always focus on the positive. There's a lot of negative emotions that can come up as we rub up against each other in life. But, you know, if we're able to be honest about where we've been hurt or find that way to apologize when we've been the one that's wronged our spouse. [00:46:35]  

 

I think it all comes down to just really being honest and still being kind and speaking life with our words. But we can do that and still be honest. I can say, hey, you know, when you said this, this really hurt me. And I love you, but how can we work on this? Or, you know, I noticed that that really did hurt you when I said this, and I'm sorry and I'm working on this. How can I help meet your needs more? So I think honesty is always a great place to start.

 

Chris Graebe: And I think you said also, for us, in our marriage and for our kids, I think, you know, we are not even close to perfect when it comes to parenting, but I think when we do have those mistakes and we, you know, are a little loud with a kid, and we're just frustrated and tired of the day, and they take the brunt, we always approach them and say, Hey, I'm just sorry. That probably hurt your feelings the way I said that or how all that went down. I wanna say I'm sorry and ask for your forgiveness." [00:47:29] 

 

We try not to let things sit around very long. That right there just gives it the opportunity for a lot of really ugly things to happen. The longer you sit on it, you know, the longer you don't try and fix it. Typically, you know, again, after 17 years of walking through a lot of good battles together in our life, in our marriage, hard seasons, great seasons, you start to go, Hey, they are really actually for me. So for us, the spats don't last real long. 

 

Laura Dugger: And the humility and to keep short accounts, those... you've given us a lot of practical handles to grab on to. One of the purposes of this podcast is to lead people to enjoy their own practical chats for intentional living. So what are some helpful questions we can use in conversation with our own spouse to get this type of conversation started and to move in a more intentional lifestyle direction? [00:48:29] 

 

Jenni Graebe: The whole back of the book is filled with questions that you can sit down with your spouse. We break it into three different sections where you can really cast a vision for your marriage together. So we ask a lot of questions to pull out that picture that you have, that you're carrying in your heart towards where you want to go as a couple. 

 

You know, when we get married, we each bring with us a specific vision of what we hope our life will look like together. A lot of times, you know, we don't even know what our spouse's picture of our future is, or we haven't had that conversation. Maybe we haven't asked, or maybe we've just gotten so busy that we haven't had the time to sit down and talk through it together. 

 

One of the things we talk about in the book is slowing down this idea of really stopping all the hectic craziness so that we can have these intentional conversations like you're talking about. But I think a great question to start with, like Chris said, is where are we in and out of rhythm? Where do we know? [00:49:27] If you ask any couple that, they will immediately know at least a few areas where they feel out of rhythm and where they feel in rhythm. So I think that's always a great place to start. 

 

Chris Graebe: And it's also really interesting to go... like, somebody goes, we're not out of rhythm there. Like, that's the best rhythm ever. You're like, no. Interesting. Okay. Someone says, no, I'm out of rhythm right here. The other one's going, you think we're out of rhythm there? Mmh. Okay. Well, help me understand. Why do you feel like we're out of rhythm? And it's not like a well, because you blah blah blah blah. Like, it gives you an opportunity to have this safe space to start and where you're kind of collectively, shoulder to shoulder looking at the thing in the center of the table going, huh, maybe we are out of rhythm there. How does that look like for you? Because I think we are, but, clearly, maybe I'm missing it. 

 

That's just the best first question to ask. And when you gain clarity there, then you can start to kinda chip away. Like, okay, well, there's seven things or a hundred things, whatever wherever you're at, that we feel like we're out of rhythm. We're gonna celebrate where we are in rhythm, and then let's just pick one or two to say, hey, let's start to work and practically put into place things we can do, even small things to get in rhythm in this area or this area, and then we can start working on the other ones as we go. [00:50:46] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, you're clearly such an intentional couple. When do you dedicate time to read with five kids and a podcast and a thriving marriage among other things? 

 

Jenni Graebe: Oh, Laura. Audible. Absolutely. For reading, Audible has saved our lives and kept us reading. I love to sit down with a book. Chris has always been an Audible guy. I love to sit down with a candle and quiet and a book. But in this season, there is not a lot of quiet. There's not a lot of uninterrupted time to be found. So Audible has absolutely helped us get those books in. 

 

Now I still love to find those moments when I can early in the morning or late at night to sit down with a book, but I've realized there will be seasons for that. 

 

Chris Graebe: Like this morning, like, I woke up at, I don't know, 05:30, and everybody else is asleep. But for Jenni, like, she gets to steal those moments at night. I'm super tired, and I'm asleep, and so she's gonna stay up and be the night owl. Those are those moments. [00:51:49] 

 

Jenni Graebe: I think your bigger question is, you know, how do you make space for what matters? I think for us, it's just we don't do it all. We can't do it all. And I think that you're able to say yes to the things that matter to you when you realize your own capacity and you realize, okay, if I say yes to everything, it will mean saying no to the things that matter most. 

 

And a lot of times the things that actually matter most are the ones that are not, vying for your attention all the time. They're the quietest things. They're saying yes to baking a batch of pretend cookies with your kids or jumping on the trampoline, you know, with your teenager or shooting those hoops with your son in the driveway. Those are the things that matter most. That's what we want to fill our life with. Right? But they're not the ones yelling for our attention all the time. 

 

So I think it just requires us looking at our life and really trying to be intentional with our yes and say yes to the things that we want to fill our life with and remembering that that means saying no to all the rest. [00:52:51] 

 

Laura Dugger: And if reading is a priority, I love that idea for Audible. Your book is certainly one I want to recommend. Where can people find and follow you online?

 

Jenni Graebe: You can go to therhythmofus.com to find everything. We are on socials, Jenni Graebe, Chris Graebe. Our name is really difficult and hard to spell. I'm sure you can spell it for them in your show notes, but it's G-R-A-E-B-E. B as in boy. I just have to spell it every day of my life. It's a good thing he's cute, Laura, because his last name is complicated. If you go to therhythmofus.com, you should be able to find everything. And the book is, wherever you like to buy your books. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Like you said, we will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:53:49] 

 

Jenni Graebe: I would say the top two that come to mind for me, the first one, is journaling. And by journaling, I mean prayer journaling. I've been a big journaler my whole life in some capacity or another. Before I go to sleep every night, I try and just write something even if it's just good night, Lord. Because I always end up writing more. But it's just the way that I process my days with Him. And so it's always directed to the Lord. It's not just writing down the events of my day, but it's actually laying them at his feet so that I can sleep.  Because I cannot go to sleep with all the things running around in my brain. 

 

So just doing that brain dump before the Lord at the end of the day has absolutely changed my life. And I can notice an actual difference in myself, in my heart, in my soul, and in my behavior if I'm not staying on top of this as a discipline. So I would say prayer journaling every night, just at least writing down one thing. [00:54:48] 

 

And then also walking through the trees absolutely has changed my life. I used to get my workouts in at the gym.  And that's fine. Chris still loves to do that. But for me, a shift happened when I realized I could run through the trails or go for a walk through the trees. Just something about being in nature, it just does something to my soul. I come back lighter. I can breathe better. I have a better perspective on the world. Just connecting with God in that way, I would say has absolutely changed my life. 

 

Chris Graebe: You know, one of the things for me is, you know, when I read Jesus doing miracles and He says, Hey, don't tell anybody, or you read scriptures that talk about the secret life, I think for me, the older I get and the longer I get in this thing, I wanna do things and that really nobody's ever gonna see publicly. You know? A lot of it carries like, okay. Who I am when no one's looking is really who I am. The text that I send to a friend that will never be posted on social media, you know, would just be like, Hey, I know you're going through something, or maybe they lost a job, and everyone else just kinda scatters. 

 

I kinda like to be that weirdo. It's like, Hey, man, I'm still thinking of you. How are you doing? It's like, why haven't you left like everybody else? [00:55:59] And so I don't know. I try as best I can to live this really awesome secret life where I'm serving people. I'm not really on social much. And so just trying to live every single day that it's like, okay. How can I make an impact where no one's gonna see? 

 

Because I think for the longest time, you know, whatever was driving me... you know, I had a pretty rough childhood. You know, the idea of going on MTV, was the wrong motives were driving me. So I think now as I get older and find a peace, and Jenni's been such a great gift to me about the idea of serving others and the way I live my life, and obviously, scriptures in Christ is going, how can I live a life that doesn't have to be super public? The parts of my life that doesn't... you know, you write a book, you do a podcast, you do videos, that part's gonna be public. 

 

But, you know, try and do those things that I'm not doing this for a post or for public acknowledgment, I'm just doing this because, one, it's the right thing to do, and it can serve somebody else. And so I don't know. I guess my savvy sauce is trying to do the things that no one sees that ultimately will bless other people and not just serve myself. [00:57:06] 

 

Laura Dugger: Those are both so good. You are such a warm and engaging couple. I've really appreciated this time together. I think that your rhythms are wise, and I know this chat's going to lead many to apply the knowledge and then benefit relationally from the truth and grace that you both shared. So thank you for making much of marriage, and thank you for being my guest today. 

 

Jenni Graebe: Absolutely. It was our honor. Thank you so much, Laura. 

 

Chris Graebe: Good times. Thanks. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:58:33] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:59:34] 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [01:00:36] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

*Disclaimer* This episode is not intended for little ears.

 

Philippians 4:5 AMP "Let your gentle spirit [your graciousness, unselfishness, mercy, tolerance, and patience] be known to all people. The Lord is near."

 

* Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you share your story?
2. How did you process through your own journey of bitterness and eventually forgiveness?
3. What encouragement do you want to share with the spouse who is currently married to someone who deals with sexual addiction?

 

Jennifer Roush is the Executive Director of the SperaVita Institute. Her organization trains pregnancy centers around the nation and internationally, helping them reach their full potential and effectively serve women at highest risk for abortion. She has also been a leader in women’s ministry for over 18 years. Jennifer is the woman to talk to if you are feeling shame and don't see a way forward in any area of your life. Her disarming belief that there is "no pit so deep, that God is not deeper still" empowers people to see beyond their present circumstances and create strategy for the future. She has spoken at many different events and ministries including Focus on the Family and Breaking the Veil of Silence. Jennifer and her husband, Troy, have four beautiful daughters.

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

My guest today is Jennifer Roush. She has walked through incredibly difficult circumstances, and she's going to share her story and how the Lord remained close to her and gently healed her through her painful process of discovering her husband's secret sexual addiction. 

 

Here's our chat. [00:01:18] 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jennifer. 

 

Jennifer Roush: Thank you so much for having me. Well, I love having a little bit of context for my guests, so will you first just give us a brief overview of where you're from and how you grew up?

 

Jennifer Roush: Sure. I grew up in central Nebraska. My father is a pastor, so I grew up in a Christian home. I have one younger sister, three years younger than me. I really had a great upbringing. You know, I grew up with a real childlike faith in God, just knowing that Jesus loved me, that He died on the cross not only to forgive me of my sins, but also He rose again so that I could be with Him in eternity and have a relationship with him now here on earth. So I had a great upbringing.

 

Laura Dugger: I remember hearing your marriage testimony probably about 15 years ago, and it's always stuck with me. Will you share that story with us now? [00:02:23] 

 

Jennifer Roush: Sure. So I grew up in a Christian home, and when I was in middle school, we moved to a new community. I was the new pastor's kid in town. And so in middle school and high school, you know, I began to backslide. I began to care so much about what other people thought of me and really looked to them to tell me who I was. 

 

But it didn't take long because of the foundation that I was raised with to become disillusioned, you know, with what I was seeing around me and with the things that my friends were doing. And so when I went to college, I actually rededicated my life to Christ. I got involved in campus ministry and really began to grow. 

 

I had a boyfriend back home at the time, and I began to share with him, you know, what God was doing in my life and how I was growing. As he listened to me, he made the decision to also pray to receive Jesus. [00:03:30] 

 

He would say now that at that time his motivation might have been a little bit mixed. He also didn't want to lose me. He has said, "I don't know if I was really pursuing God or you." But I took that as my green light to move ahead with the relationship. 

 

So we actually got married at the ripe old age of 19, feeling so grown up. But as I look back, I mean, we were so young. We moved to a new city and began to get plugged in. We joined a great church. I was really hungry to continue to grow in my faith. 

 

Every once in a while I would notice some sort of what seemed like a dark internal struggle going on with him. I would ask him about it, ask him if he was okay, and he would just say something like, "Oh, yeah, I was stressed out at work" or "Yeah, I'm fine." [00:04:36] I wanted to believe that he was okay, and so I did. 

 

After about two years of marriage, the Lord began to reveal what was going on. One day I went to get the mail and was just looking through our mail, and I noticed this bill from a real sort of generic-looking company. And so I thought, oh, I'll have to ask my husband what this is, and continued to sort mail. 

 

Then I heard the voice of the Lord say, no, no, open it up. So I went back to that envelope and I opened it up. And I still didn't know what it was because it was still real generic. And so I thought, "Okay, I'll ask him about it when he gets home." I heard the voice of the Lord again say, "No, call the company. You need to know what this is." [00:05:27] So I went into our apartment, I called the company, and I was devastated to find out that it was an adult phone line or a phone sex company. 

 

I confronted my husband when he got home. At first, he wanted to deny it but then admitted that he'd been struggling with pornography and struggling with making these phone calls. And I was mortified. I didn't understand. I didn't understand, you know, why would you want something like that when you have me? We'd been married two years. We were still kind of newlyweds. 

 

I didn't understand but came to understand that this hadn't been just an occasional thing. This hadn't been something that went on a few times. That this was an addiction. This was in the 90s, and the internet was still fairly new. [00:06:34] And this was something that wasn't talked about as much as it is now. But this was an addiction that had deep roots, that had gone actually... I eventually found out beyond magazines, beyond phone calls. But I was soon to find out that it had actually moved into infidelity. 

 

I didn't understand but came to understand later that it really didn't have a lot to do with me but that there was a void in his life that he was trying to fill with all of this stuff. And it was really a void that only God could fill. 

 

I was devastated. I wanted to wish it away. I wanted a quick fix. I wanted to slap a Band-Aid on it and move forward. I thought, "Maybe let's just get in the Bible. Let's talk to so and so. But you can't slap a Band-Aid on something, on a wound that is rotting from the inside out." And so we moved forward. [00:07:46] 

 

We went for a while trying to reach out for different forms of help. Things would seem to be okay for a while but then... this being exposed was really God's pursuit of my husband. The Lord loves us so much. I think He'll give us windows of time where if there is something going on with us that we're keeping in the darkness, I believe that He will give us a period of time to bring it into the light. But then if we don't, in His great love for us, he will allow it to be exposed. 

 

This happened over and over where we would be going along thinking things were getting better, but my husband was still not being honest. So, God, in his love for me and in his pursuit of my husband, would allow it to be exposed. [00:08:43] 

 

We were separated different times throughout our marriage. I was mortified to find out that at one point he had been ticketed for solicitation of prostitution. In the community where we lived, they actually published this in the paper. So any sort of mask that I wanted to wear around people or any sort of impression that I wanted to give that we had our acts together was kind of taken away. 

 

It was so beautiful because God really used that to deal with me in the areas of pride and humility, in areas where I also wanted to keep things in darkness and under the rug and not be transparent with people. I became so desperate during this period of time in my life that I began to cry out to God. [00:09:47] I began to say, "God, my entire life, people have told me that you're enough, that you're all that I need. And God, I know that in my head. God, I kind of know it in my heart. But God, I need to know from the very depths of my being that You are who You say You are, that You are enough. 

 

And so as hard as this season in my life was, it was beautiful because, you know, God says, draw near to me and I will draw near to you. I began to learn intimacy with Him. I began to learn what that really looked like. And I began to know Him in a deeper way. Yet, as I said, as hard as it was, there was a lot of beauty in that time as well, because He is so beautiful. [00:10:43] 

 

In a season of our life where we thought that things were... you know, I thought, I guess, that things were going better and that maybe this issue was behind us, we found out we were pregnant and we had our first daughter, McKenna, who's so beautiful.

 

I remember at night getting up in the middle of the night and rocking her. I really didn't know lullabies, but I would sing songs that I knew. So I would sing, you know, you are so beautiful to me. You are so beautiful to me. You're everything I hoped for. I remember one night being up in her room, just rocking her and then just hearing the Lord sing over me, "Jennifer, you're so beautiful to me." He's so good in the middle of our painful circumstances. 

 

We went on for years and years. [00:11:44] I didn't believe in divorce. I knew that that was not God's ultimate plan for marriage. And so I went for years just praying and hoping and believing and going through periods of time where I would think, Okay, this is getting better, and they might seem to be for a while, but then God would continue to bring things into the light in my husband's life when he wasn't being transparent. 

 

And it finally got to the point where I saw somebody who is deeply loved by God with the destiny in God that I agree with. So buy into the lies of the enemy and therefore stay in bondage to them that it cost us our marriage. I finally realized, you know, our home has to be safe and healthy. And he wasn't being transparent. And I've got children. So we separated and our marriage eventually ended in divorce. 

 

It wasn't what I had hoped for. It wasn't what I dreamed of on my wedding day but it happened. I walked my children through the pain of that and then began to live as a single mom for a period of time. [00:13:08] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing so transparently what happened. I'm wondering if someone is in the midst of this right now. And it's just so helpful to hear your story shared with them. I do have a few follow-up questions when we go back. How long was it before either you or your husband said this out loud to another person? Was it when it was published in the newspaper?

 

Jennifer Roush: The initial struggles before that happened, it was actually pretty quick with a few people. We did talk to our pastor right away. We did see a counselor pretty early on. I would say I didn't fully understand the fullness of what was happening when we began to talk about it. It was probably initially more me just wanting, you know, this to go away and wanting it fixed. [00:14:13] But we did have people in our life that we did talk to fairly early on. And then obviously when it was made public, everybody knew at that point.

 

Laura Dugger: And as you were seeking counsel from others, who was the first one to be able to identify and share, this is an addiction?

 

Jennifer Roush: I think it was our first counselor. I think he had a deeper understanding of what was going on pretty quickly because of his line of work. But I didn't. It was hard for me to believe that my husband was an addict. You know, because pornography, it is like a drug addiction, but the signs are different. They don't have marks on their arms or they don't pass out or things that are real obvious. It's a little more insidious than that. And so it took me a while to get my mind around it.

 

Laura Dugger: And what were a few of those signs that God really used to bring some of this into the light? [00:15:17] 

 

Jennifer Roush: After walking through this for a while, I could begin to identify, you know, when something was going on. I would say, first of all, lack of intimacy between the two of us. When he would begin to push me away, lack of concentration. I think he had a hard time focusing when he was really using a lot. Those were some telltale signs. Money issues, because a lot of this does cost money. And so when suddenly money was missing, that was also a sign.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that's really helpful. And as painful as it is to recall, I think that's really practical for someone who's having these same questions. And I just appreciate how you were so in tune walking with the Holy Spirit that you knew when God was nudging you to just go a little bit further, ask another question.

 

Jennifer Roush: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. 

 

While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: How did you process through your own journey of bitterness and eventually forgiveness?

 

Jennifer Roush: There were so many different things that God used. As I grew in intimacy with God, He began to deal with things in my life as well. When we look to Him, we become like Him, and things that aren't like Him have to go.

 

First of all, God really began to deal with control issues in my life. He began to show me how much I wanted control of things, and really, I was in a situation that was out of my control. He began to deal with my heart and teach me just to trust Him. 

 

He began to deal with the issue of forgiveness. I knew that He called us to forgive. I knew that if I held on to unforgiveness, that it would only hurt me, but man, I wrestled with that. I wrestled with it. [00:18:39] 

 

I remember my husband in a season where he seemed to be doing better, he was a musician, and so he was with a worship team from our church. And one night, they had gone into a prison to do some ministry, and he was playing drums. 

 

While he was there, two prostitutes that he had known apparently were incarcerated. He came home and told me about it, and it was tough. It was tough because the Lord began to show me how not only was I dealing with unforgiveness for my husband, but that I hadn't even really considered the other side of the story, and was I willing to forgive these women. 

 

While they were there ministering, I was told that they had actually accepted the Lord. I wasn't happy about it. I was thinking in my mind, I don't want to go to heaven with them. [00:19:42] One night, a couple weeks after that, we were downtown, we had some other friends who were having a service in an inner city church, and the Lord was continuing to deal with my heart regarding these women. 

 

So finally, I was just praying, and I said, "God, I know that you've called me to forgive. I know that you died on the cross for all of us. But God, these women slept with my husband." And I heard the Lord, in His very non-condemning way, say back to me, "And Jennifer, your sins killed my son." And it wasn't condemning. He was just reminding me of the love and the mercy that I had received. 

 

You know, you always hear people say that if you were the only person in the world, that Christ would have died for you. [00:20:47] But something else that we need to consider is that if you were the only person in the world, He still would have had to die. So that was sort of the beginning, I think, of Him healing my heart and growing me in forgiveness. 

 

He also began to deal with my pride. I had a friend one time say, "Jennifer, your marriage reminds me of Hosea and Gomer. And you know how Hosea was the faithful spouse, and Gomer was the prostitute that kept cheating and coming back and cheating and coming back." I remember kind of thinking, yeah, like I see what you're saying. Until one day the Lord told me, He said, "Jennifer, you're not Hosea. I'm Hosea. I'm the faithful one. You are also unfaithful to me. You've also been unfaithful."

 

So that's kind of how the Lord stepped me through a lot of those things. You know, it really comes out of that intimate relationship with Him and just knowing Him and knowing His heart. [00:21:52] And then in the process, allowing Him to strip away the things that would hold us captive. 

 

My pastor would always say that "don't let sin against you cause sin in you". And I think that's really key.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. The magnitude of all of that is so powerful, just especially what the Lord said about what all of us have done to His Son. But your intimacy with the Lord, I'm hearing this obedience and that you're sensitive to Him and you're learning from your pastor. What else did intimacy with the Lord look like? Were there certain spiritual practices that you had in place?

 

Jennifer Roush: Yeah, that's a great question. Really, yes, I would spend time in His Word. That's key, obviously, to grow in our understanding and our knowledge of who He is. [00:22:52] I would spend a lot of time in prayer as well, just getting in His presence, praying, listening for His voice. I'd spend time in worship and even just on my own, just playing songs that spoke to my heart. 

 

And then also being connected to the body of Christ is incredibly important because we refine one another because God uses other people oftentimes to reflect His heart. So all of those things are important. I would say more than anything, it was getting alone with Him and opening myself up and just letting Him have access to any place He wanted to go.

 

Laura Dugger: It just makes me think of the song we so often sing at church, just, I surrender all. It sounds like you got before Him in solitude and surrendered everything and He's worked in miraculous ways. But this has been a long journey. [00:23:55] 

 

An added layer to this story is having young daughters, like you mentioned. So as this process went on, how did you share with your then 7- and 10-year-old daughters about your husband's sex addiction and what was their response?

 

Jennifer Roush: I was very aware, I think, and protective of their hearts. And because I knew of my own struggles with unforgiveness and control and pride and bitterness and all of that, I really prayed and just sought wisdom on how to walk them through something so difficult. 

 

So, first and foremost, when I told them that we were getting a divorce, it's hard at 7 and 10 to, first of all, talk about the issues at hand, to talk about pornography. I mean, they were pretty innocent. But the first thing that I did was I told them in the presence of their children's pastor, who they loved, and my parents. I thought it was really important for them to feel surrounded by people that loved them. [00:25:07] 

 

So it wasn't just mom saying this and maybe dad saying something else, but they had a community around them. They had godly, loving men who were coming alongside them. What we initially told them, because they really didn't understand sex or that sort of thing at those ages, was that there are promises that you make when you get married, and our pastor talked to them about how dad loves you and God loves him. He didn't keep those promises. That was the best way that we could explain it initially. 

 

As the girls got a little older, God began to just show me, you know, when the appropriate time was to give them more information. And it wasn't too long after that. My oldest was in middle school. And I could just begin to tell that the weight of not knowing more was getting a lot for her. [00:26:09] And you really have to be careful because kids in their own minds can begin to imagine things that aren't true and even blame themselves. 

 

So one day I just came home from work early and I really felt like, Okay, we've got to talk in more depth now. She walked home from school, came in the house, and I said, "Honey, I need to talk to you more about what happened between your dad and I." And it was hard. She knew that it would be difficult. 

 

But we went in her room and... I didn't quite know how to start. I said, "Do you know what pornography is?" And she said no, and I breathed a sigh of relief. Then I said, "Well, I said, do you know what sex is?" And she's like, "Well, kind of, you know, like we've talked a little bit about it and they talked about it a little bit at school." [00:27:12] 

 

So I said, "Okay," I said, "Pornography are images that can be on the computer, magazines, different places. They're images that are really, really immodest and inappropriate." And we talked about how people can become addicted to that like a drug. All of a sudden, she looked at me and she goes, "Mom, you mean like in the movie Fireproof?" I had to think back to that movie. I thought, "Oh, yeah, like in the movie Fireproof." And so I was glad she had a point of reference.

 

And then we did talk a little bit about the infidelity as well. I couched it in love, in trying to express God's heart for her dad. But I also felt like it was important for her in those young teenage years to really understand that you don't get divorced over something minor or... not that any of that was minor, but that marriage is so valuable and so worth fighting for. [00:28:24] And so I didn't want to minimize anything either. 

 

So we talked about it. At first, she wanted to comfort me, which I had already been through quite a bit of healing and it was real sweet. But then she started to cry and she said, "Mom, I just feel like a bunch of chains just came off of me." And I was so thankful that she said that because it's vulnerable to talk to your kids about these things. And you can think as a parent, "Is this the right time? Am I saying this the right way?" But I think her not knowing was holding her in more bondage and she needed to know the truth. So it was a really precious time.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Looking back then, what parenting decisions would you say you're grateful you made?

 

Jennifer Roush: I would say just being real conscientious about pursuing the girl's heart, just like God pursues our hearts. [00:29:27] And so just really checking in with them, not wanting to sweep anything under the rug, processing with them forgiveness, taking them through prayers of forgiveness and all of that. 

 

I think continuing to stay real connected to the body of Christ and providing opportunity for godly men to be in their life and just speaking so much about how men are a blessing. I really didn't want any bitter roots springing up, you know. I think also talking to them about, you've been through some things with your dad, but you have a good Father. You have a good, perfect, heavenly Father, and He is here for you to meet your needs. 

 

And this was not his heart for you to walk through this, but He works all things for good. And so He's going to use this in your life. You're going to have so many other kids that go through the pain of divorce, and you're going to be able to come alongside them in understanding. [00:30:42] You're going to be able to encourage them because it's a path that you've walked in. 

 

I think it was really important for them to understand how God can take our painful things and use them for good in our life. And it was really cool because, I don't know, a year or two after our divorce, there was a family in our church with six kids, and unfortunately, their parents were walking through divorce. And so the kids were up in Sunday school, and our children's pastor that day, they were praying for these kids, and he had my daughter come up and pray for them. And I just loved that because it was just a tangible example of what we had been talking about.

 

It's hard. I mean, there's no way around it. It's hard to walk your kids through something like this, but I think you just keep pointing them to God and get a good community around them, and that's the best that you can do. [00:31:46] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thanks to our friend Joy, thesavvysauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1st titled Articles. I hope you check out these new savvy snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy!

 

Jennifer, it sounds like community is so important to you, and wisely so, that you also instill that in your daughters. So as you reflect on your healing process, what was the most helpful and most harmful thing from your community during that time?

 

Jennifer Roush: I think the most helpful thing was just having friends around me that would encourage me, that would pray with me, that would remind me of who I am in Christ, regardless of what was going on around me. [00:32:54] Friends that would just show up. I think the hardest thing... sometimes you might know somebody going through something really difficult, maybe like what I went through, and it can feel awkward. It can feel like, I don't know what to say. I don't know what they need. 

 

And so sometimes we can find ourselves wanting maybe to distance ourselves a little bit, not because we don't care, but just because we're not sure what to do or what to say. But when I experienced that, it could feel really isolating and really discouraging. 

 

I think the best thing that you can do, even if you don't know exactly what to do or say, is just to be there. Just to say, I'm praying for you. I'm so thankful for the friends that would have us over for dinner. Me, a single mom with two little kids, but they would still just bring us into their home and allow my girls to be part of that. [00:34:00] And so that was just wonderful. 

 

So I think just staying connected. I remember when our divorce was final, I had a friend hear about it and she didn't really know what to say, but she just marched straight over to my house, walked through the back kitchen door, and just into my kitchen and just hugged me. And it's just powerful. So, yeah, sometimes when I talk about those things, I feel the emotions of that time.

 

So that's what I would say is just be there, just show up, just give a word of encouragement. And don't worry if you don't know the perfect thing to say or do, just be there.

 

Laura Dugger: And as you're sharing, I'm experiencing some emotion as well. And I think what it is, stories like your friend coming in, that was an act that was prompted in love. [00:35:00] And I think that's always so compelling because it does reflect Christ's love for us.

 

Do you have any encouragement that you would like to share with a spouse who is currently married to someone who is in the midst of dealing with a sexual addiction?

 

Jennifer Roush: The first thing that I want to say is I just want to speak hope to them. First and foremost, your hope is in Christ and He has good plans for your life, regardless of the current situation around you. But part of me being on this journey is that I have so many relationships with different couples that have also been through this struggle. And I've seen so many come out on the other side, healed and whole. So just know that God is for you, that He is for your spouse. 

 

I always say that in Christ, there is so much hope and there is so much freedom to choose. [00:36:00] But I want to tell you that just because you're in this battle, it doesn't mean that your marriage is going to end in divorce. You just keep turning to Him, keep trusting Him. He is good and His goodness will be made manifest in your life.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a good word. Now, will you catch us up on the current pages of your story? 

 

Jennifer Roush: Sure. Yes. So I was a single mom for about five years, and in the summer of 2013, I met my now husband, Troy. He was living about an hour north of us and we met. He had been through, honestly, some similar pain in his previous marriage that I had been through. So we connected and we got married in May of 2014. And he's a godly man. [00:37:05] 

 

It took me a while. It took me some years of healing. And then even coming to the realization that, yeah, I would, I would like to probably be married again. He has two girls. We both came to the marriage with two girls and have walked through some of the challenges of blended families. But I'll tell you, he is such a loving stepdad to my two daughters and they love him. It's been incredibly healing for our family. So we've just really been in a season of God making things new.

 

In 2012, I began to work in the pro-life world. I'm a nurse. That is what I have my degree in. I actually got a job managing a network of pro-life clinics. It was amazing because every day I was seeing girls with an unplanned pregnancy or patients that were coming in who needed testing for STDs. [00:38:17] And it was a place where not only could I give them the medical treatment that they needed, but also have opportunity to share my faith and to share the gospel.

 

It's amazing how God works because for so long, you know, that whole area of sexuality was just so broken in my life. There was so much sexual brokenness. But as God healed me... you know, the Bible says he has taken captivity captive. And so those things that the enemy wants to use to hold us captive, the Lord actually comes in, when we allow Him into our lives, and takes those things and actually uses them for His kingdom.

 

So here I was, this person who had walked through all of this sexual brokenness. And now every single day I was sitting with these young adults who were walking through sexual brokenness and the Lord was allowing me to minister to them. [00:39:19] That was an amazing season.

 

Now He's kind of taken it to the next place. And so currently I am the executive director of the Speravita Institute. We are an organization that trains clinics and centers like the one I worked in around the country and even internationally to just multiply this work. God's just so good. I mean, he works all things for good in our lives.

 

Laura Dugger: Amen to that. I just love hearing how God is bringing your story full circle, even in the work that you're doing today. So thank you for sharing.

 

Jennifer Roush: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Jennifer, you may already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Jennifer Roush: I would just say pursue knowing God. [00:40:20] That is an eternal pursuit. There is always more to know. I mean, we will spend eternity with God, I think, just continuing to reveal new aspects of who He is to us. So as we know Him, we also then come to know who we are, right? 

 

Once we know who He is, we're better able to see who He made us to be and better able then to look at others through His lens and walk in who He called us to be and fulfill the purpose in our life. That's kind of the drumbeat, I guess, of my life, is just to go deeper in knowing my Father.

 

Laura Dugger: And in that pursuit of knowing your father, it is so apparent how you're becoming more like Christ. And I just experience Christ through you. It reminds me this morning, I was reading in Philippians 4, and specifically in verse 5, when it says, "Let your gentle spirit be known to all people." The Amplified version says that gentle spirit is your graciousness, unselfishness, mercy, tolerance, and patience. [00:41:41] 

 

I definitely experienced all of those through you today. Not only does it say, let your gentle spirit be known to all people, but the verse concludes with this: the Lord is near. So Jennifer, thank you for living that out. And thank you so much for sharing your story with us and being my guest today. It was an honor to host you.

 

Jennifer Roush: Thank you. Yes, it was an honor to be your guest and I really enjoyed it.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:42:45] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:43:47] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:44:49] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

*DISCLAIMER: There is some thematic material discussed in this episode. Please do not listen in the presence of young ears.

 

161. God Redeems with Hettie Brittz

 

"So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. Walk in obedience to all that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess." Deuteronomy 5:32-33 (NIV)

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How did your upbringing and majority of life spent in South Africa influence your transition into motherhood?

2. Will you give us illustrations of moms who parent very differently, but God has clearly equipped them for their exact role as mother to their unique children?

3. How did this play out for you in a profound way we can all learn from?

 

Hettie Brittz was born and raised in South Africa but now  lives in East Tennessee with her husband of 29 years, Louis. They have a newly-wed, a college student and a teen. Hettie's motto is "Know your design; live your purpose." She helps individuals, couples, families and teams discover their brilliant God-given design so they can live and work with impact and fulfilment. She has trained facilitators around the world to use her Evergreen Parenting curriculum and her Tall Trees Leadership model to impact their communities in turn. She has collaborated on broadcasts, publications and conferences by Focus on the Family, Family Life, David C Cook, The Barna Foundation, OneHope and other international ministries. She is at her happiest on a mountain, at her most content on her porch with her Bible, strong coffee, and a sunrise, at her most creative in the camping chair in her backyard woods, at her best in a room full of people who are eager to grow, and most grateful when her husband and all her kids are home and happy. 

 

linktr.ee/hettiebrittz

Contact Hettie Brittz on Facebook

Her Website

unNatural Mom: Why You Are the Perfect Mom for Your Kids

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Temperaments:

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part 1 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part 2 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

 

Temperaments and Power of Words in Parenting with Kathleen Edelman

 

Four Personality Types with Dale Wilsher

 

Applying Personality Training to Parenting with Dale Wilsher

 

Parenting All Temperaments with Jenny Boyett

 

Temperaments and Power of Words in Parenting with Kathleen Edelman

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Disclaimer: This episode contains some themes of violence. Please be aware of the thematic material before listening in the presence of young ears."

 

160. Unleash This Generation with the Power of the Gospel with Greg Stier

 

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations [help the people to learn of Me, believe in Me, and obey My words], baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always [remaining with you perpetually—regardless of circumstance, and on every occasion], even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20 (AMP)

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you give us a glimpse into your family of origin and share the real picture of what it was like to grow up as an urban child?

2. How did life change for you and your family after Christ radically transformed all of you?

3. On a practical side, will you share an overview of 7 ways to improve your youth group ministry?

 

Greg Stier is a champion for unleashing this generation with the gospel. As the founder of Dare 2 Share Ministries, he is driven to help the church activate Christian teenagers to reach their friends. In the last 30 years, Greg has trained millions of youth leaders and students how to relationally engage their world with the Good News of Jesus. A much-sought-after speaker, Greg is a former pastor, church planter, and youth leader, as well as the author of numerous books.

 

Dare 2 Share Ministries

Dare 2 Share Live Event

Greg Stier's Website

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Unlikely Fighter

Gospelize Your Youth Ministry

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

159. Uncover Your Purpose with Clarity with Isimemen Aladejobi

 

Matthew 6:33 KJV "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How do you discern God's will and leading and voice in your life?

2. How do you recommend we uncover our purpose?

3. How does our identity impact our work?

 

Isimemen (Isi) Aladejobi is a wife, mom, business & career growth strategist and founder of Powerful Women Make Power Moves (PWMPMoves), a community of Black millennial women determined to win in their careers and their lives.

 

Through her signature programs, Millennial Job Blueprint & Fulfilled, she has helped hundreds of Black women identify and secure their dream jobs using authentic networking and strengths based career exploration. Participants in her programs have landed multiple job offers, 6 figure offers after years of unemployment, $42k salary increases, and increased clarity and confidence, amongst many other wins. 

 

As a business growth strategist and digital marketer, Isi has created revenue generating growth plans for CEOs, entrepreneurs and small business owners. Clients have seen 300% growth in revenue and generated six figures from her marketing campaigns. 

 

Isi holds a bachelor’s degree in Accounting and a minor in Technical Entrepreneurship from The University of Maryland at College Park and a master’s degree in Education from George Mason University. She resides in Washington, DC with her husband and two daughters.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*DISCLAIMER* This message is intended for adults only.

 

158. Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta

 

The mandrakes send out their fragrance, and at our door is every delicacy, both new and old, that I have stored up for you, my beloved. Song of Songs 7:13 (NIV)

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Why do you believe married sex is one of God's best ideas and how can adopting a biblical perspective of sex redefine how we value it in our marriages?

2. One chapter you wrote is titled, "Your Body is a Wonderland." What are some of your favorite highlights from this chapter?

3. What are some practical suggestions or techniques you recommend for married couples to enhance their sexual experiences?

 

Debra K. Fileta is a Licensed Professional Counselor specializing in Relationship, Sex, Dating, and Marriage issues. She is a passionate author and national speaker who travels across the country spreading the message that healthy people make healthy relationships. Her work has been featured by numerous media outlets from national television to church ministries such as Saddleback Church, FreshLife Church, Focus on the Family, ChristianMingle.com, The 700 Club, NGEN Radio, KLOVE, and many more. She, her husband, and three children live in Lancaster, PA.

 

Debra is a regular contributor to publications such as Relevant Magazine and Crosswalk.com, with well over 250 articles across the web about love, marriage, dating, sex, and relationships. Her articles have also been featured in magazines and websites such as Today’s Christian Woman, Verily Magazine, Anne Voskamp blog, Proverbs 31 Woman, IAmSecond.com, ChurchLeaders.com, Converge Magazine, Charisma Magazine, Christianity Today, and many others.

 

She is the author of True Love Dates, Choosing Marriage:Why it Has To Start With We > Me and Love in Every Season.  She’s also the creator of the popular relationship advice bog, www.TrueLoveDates.com as well as the Love + Relationships Podcast reaching millions of people each year with topics of love, sex, marriage, relationships and emotional and mental health. Connect with her on Facebook or Instagram to get your dating questions answered and to learn more!

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Married Sex

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*This message includes thematic material and discusses adult topics and is not intended for little ears*

 

157. After Brutal Trauma, Where Can You Turn? With Jeff and Jennifer Christie

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you share your story about your horrific trauma experienced?

2. How has this impacted your marriage?

3. How have you both seen God work?

 

"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." Genesis 50:20 NIV

 

Jeff and Jennifer Christie are the founders of Love Louder, an affiliate of Abby Johnson’s ProLove Ministries. Love Louder is a no-exceptions, pro-life support system for women who have been victims of sexual assault.

 

They first made national headlines in 2014 when their story “Raped on a business trip – My husband and I chose life” went mega-viral with over a million direct shares to Facebook and reprints across the globe in dozens of languages.

 

Since then, the two have become active in the pro-life community as international speakers (they were keynote speakers at the March for Life in Malta in 2018 and in London 2019) and affiliates of Personhood Alliance. Jennifer has worked as a freelance writer for publications such as Focus on the Family and Live Action.

 

Also a nationally certified sign language interpreter, she has interpreted for the annual Pro-Life Women’s Conference and the March for Life in Washington, DC in 2021.

 

Her memoir is scheduled to be published by Focus on the Family and Tyndale in 2022.

 

Love Louder Ministry

Jeff and Jennifer Christie on Facebook

Call 833-4-LOUDER for a 24/7 hotline

ProLove Ministries

Loveline.com

Call or Text LoveLine @ 888.550.1588

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Join our free email list to receive articles.

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

Ephesians 4:31+32 “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” 

156. Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2

 

"Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge;" Isaiah 5:13 NKJV

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you elaborate on the science of sex?

2. When two become one, what has God designed to occur at a hormonal level?

3. What is your best list of benefits that come from a husband and wife connecting sexually on a regular basis?

 

Jesus captured Francie’s heart at a young age, and she has been on an adventure following Him since then, fueled by a love for His word and His presence.

 

As a young woman Francie served in Mother Theresa’s home for the dying in Kolkata, sat in brothels with girls trapped in the sex trade of Chang Mai, slept in the bush of Namibia to reach tribal people and orphans with the Gospel of Jesus, visited the homes of the poor in the Dominican Republic, and helped with the rebuilding and development of a village in Sri Lanka after the 2004 tsunami.

 

For the past few years, Francie has been focused on writing and speaking about God’s good gift of intimacy in marriage.  She’s been featured on Christianity Today’s blog and Moody Radio, The Don’t Mom Alone Podcast, and Java with Juli, and several others as she shares about the power of sex in marriage. Most recently, she’s launched a podcast called Heaven in Your Home where she talks all about sex, marriage and the mission of God.

 

In it all, Francie is passionate about inviting others to experience God’s tangible love that has the ability to transform every area of life.   

 

Francie has a BA in Political Science and a Masters degree in Evangelism and Leadership from Wheaton College in Wheaton, Il.  She currently lives in the suburbs of Washington DC with her six kids and husband. 

 

Francie Winslow's Website

Francie Winslow's Podcast

 

Episodes with Dr. Michael Sytsma on The Savvy Sauce:

Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview

 

Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse

 

Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Remaining Sexually Engaged Through the Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma (Paying Patrons Only)

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Francie's Green Superfood Recommendation

 

Recommended Resources to Learn about Sex:

Celebration of Sex

The Art of Intimate Marriage

Passion Pursuit

Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women

Restoring the Pleasure

The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex

 

Additional Recommended Resources at www.thesavvysauce.com

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

155. Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1

 

**Transcription Below**

 

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others." Philippians 2:3+4 NIV

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What has the Lord taught you about sexual intimacy within marriage?

2. How does sex that happens in the secret place inside our marriage overflow to the rest of our lives, benefitting each arena?

3. What are a few positive messages to replace the negative lies we've previously bought into about sex?

 

 

Francie Winslow says Jesus captured her heart at a young age, and she has been on an adventure following Him since then, fueled by a love for His word and His presence.

 

As a young woman Francie served in Mother Theresa’s home for the dying in Kolkata, sat in brothels with girls trapped in the sex trade of Chang Mai, slept in the bush of Namibia to reach tribal people and orphans with the Gospel of Jesus, visited the homes of the poor in the Dominican Republic, and helped with the rebuilding and development of a village in Sri Lanka after the 2004 tsunami.

 

For the past few years, Francie has been focused on writing and speaking about God’s good gift of intimacy in marriage.  She’s been featured on Christianity Today’s blog and Moody Radio, The Don’t Mom Alone Podcast, and Java with Juli, and several others as she shares about the power of sex in marriage. Most recently, she’s launched a podcast called Heaven in Your Home where she talks all about sex, marriage and the mission of God.

 

In it all, Francie is passionate about inviting others to experience God’s tangible love that has the ability to transform every area of life.   

 

Francie has a BA in Political Science and a Masters degree in Evangelism and Leadership from Wheaton College in Wheaton, Il.  She currently lives in the suburbs of Washington DC with her six kids and husband. 

 

Francie Winslow's Website

Francie Winslow's Podcast

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:16] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 600 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at midwestshelters.com or visit them on Facebook.

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

Hey, everyone. I'm so excited to share my guest with you today. Francie Winslow has so much to share as it relates to God's vision for sex. She skillfully articulates the benefits of coming together, and she teaches us how the physical act represents a greater spiritual truth. She's going to share how the secret place in our home ripples out to impact our relationships, families, and communities at large. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Francie.

 

Francie Winslow: Thank you. It's such a blessing to be with you today.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:01:26] I'm so excited to chat with you. But first, will you just tell us about who you are and what you do? 

 

Francie Winslow: Absolutely. You know, we were actually just talking before you hit record about the fact that I am not a therapist, I'm not a counselor. My heart is really to be an intimacy evangelist because I have encountered intimacy with God and I've realized the power of intimacy within a marriage under His good design and His good plan, and I've realized that both are just precious gifts. One is for this lifetime on earth and one is for eternity, in addition to this lifetime. Both are just incredible gifts worth talking about, worth exploring, worth digging into. So that is my heart. 

 

On top of that, I am a mom of six. So my husband and I have six kiddos here that we're raising in Northern Virginia, just outside of DC. In my extra windows of time, I just find myself overflowing with a passion to communicate God's heart for intimacy, both with Him and within marriage. An integrated view of our bodies and theology behind our bodies and our sexuality has just kind of come as an overflow of what God has been speaking to me and teaching me over the years. So this is kind of what our life looks like. We do some podcasting and some writing, and mostly just a lot of loving my family and normal things and normal life.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:02:46] I love getting that real-time snapshot. But if you take us back a little while, how did you come to know Jesus and surrender your life to Him?

 

Francie Winslow: You know, I think it was the kindness of God. He revealed His love to me when I was a really little girl. I was raised in a Christian family and we had just kind of a small-town community that I was blessed enough to be raised in. But even more than going to church all the time, it was how He was meeting me with His love in the little small moments of my day, in my bedroom, playing with my toys. I would just sense that God loves me a lot, and it caused me to just continue to open my heart to Him and continue to seek Him.

 

I ended up being very moved by pictures and videos I saw of the poor when I was a really little girl, and I told my mom, "I got to be a missionary. Who's going to go to them?" So I got the opportunity to see God's work, not only in my heart, but I started traveling all over the world on mission trips, starting when I was about eighth grade. 

 

And it changed my life so much because I realized that God is not only real in my little bedroom, but He was moving all over the world in powerful ways. And just kind of set the tone for my heart to hunger for Him, for not only myself and knowing that He loves me, but that He is on a worldwide mission to restore and renew all of His creation, and that He's invited me to be a small part of it.

 

So it's kind of this intimacy worked out from the secret place and rippling out into a vision for what He wants to do on the earth to bring it all back to Him. So it's been a journey many, many years. But I've realized that the more I love Him and the more love I receive from Him and the more I want Him and the more He gives of Himself. And it's this incredible love exchange that's just kept getting sweeter over time.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:04:30] What is He currently teaching you about theology of our bodies? How did you even develop your own personal theology on that topic?

 

Francie Winslow: Well, you know, it goes back a bit because the theology of our bodies is very... it sounds kind of lofty and kind of ivory tower, but it really is about the fact that Jesus came in a body and He lived in a body because He wanted to show us the way to be fully human and what it is to be in communion with God and with each other right here, right now in very tangible ways. 

 

What that looked like for me was getting married really young. So I got married when I was about 20. I was at Wheaton College and met my husband and we got married young and ended up going on a mission field for a little while. 

 

But during those really young years, the only thing I had to work with was the idea of don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. And while that worked for me in high school and I realized boundaries are good and they're for my good, I didn't have a theology of sexuality or a theology of my body or theology of sex to apply to a godly marriage. So it was a real big jump for me to go from "don't do it, don't do it" to "you can do it", and how do I switch my thinking on that?

 

The journey that drew me into was one of inner healing and one of understanding the shame that I had been carrying in my body and that God wanted to meet me there and that my body and things going on with my body, including my gender and my sexuality, were not unrelated to my spiritual life, if that makes sense.

 

I think for too long I had been kind of like, Your spiritual life is all over here, and then sex or the body or gender is a whole nother conversation that we don't really need to get into. And God was beginning to reintegrate them in our early years of marriage, just renewing my thinking and reclaiming that territory with really His rewriting of the narrative that He made sex, He made it good, He made it for our good, that it relates to the bigger gospel story.

 

But it began our first year of marriage because it really forced my hand. It brought to the surface we have to talk about this because I can't keep moving forward with this separated way of living and thinking, that, you know, God is over here and all the other stuff is kind of in a different compartment.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:06:42] In that journey,—I'm just thinking of the newlywed who is listening right now—was this something that started just you and God for that first year, or were you also communicating with your husband as you journeyed to this inner healing?

 

Francie Winslow: Yeah, it was both. It definitely started with me. I remember specifically sitting on the apartment floor, I had multiple Bible translations out in front of me just searching God's word: how do I love this man? "Oh, Lord, here I am. How do I love this man? You know, we're so different."

 

You have all of the wish of good feelings, all that dopamine when you're dating, and then you get married and you realize that it's not as easy as it looked in engagement. Issues come up and wounds come up and shame comes up or barriers come up. And we really realized that we had to learn how to fight for each other rather than fighting each other.

 

For me, it started with this prayer of "how do I love this man"? And God led me to Philippians 2, which I actually have opened right in front of me at the moment. Philippians 2 where Paul's talking to the church: "If any of you want to be like-minded or have the same love of one accord and one mind, let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in loneliness of mind, let you esteem others better than himself and look out for each other's interest, not only for your own." 

 

What God was really showing me was that I long for that oneness of mind, that oneness of heart, that unity. So how do I do it? So it started this conversation of us really trying to honor each other's needs before our own. And I knew that sex was a big need for him, and I was still trying to wrap my mind around it, but it caused me to be willing to be more available and to say yes more often, because I knew that that was a place that was a felt need for him. 

 

What I learned later is that sex is not a man's need and a woman's duty at all, although that was probably informing me at some level back then. What I learned by saying yes to God's design and finding healing is that sex in a marriage is a gift that draws us into deeper intimacy, deeper revelation of God, the God story written on our bodies, and the gospel story written on marriage and also propels us into greater fruitfulness.

 

But the beginning stages were definitely me seeking God. How do I love this man? Realizing that one key is right there in Philippians 2, understanding what humble love looks like, and then having those conversations of doing that together. That's the ideal.

 

[00:09:04] We talk a lot about our pink inner healing couch because the first year of our marriage, we had very wise pastors who said, "It looks like you guys might need some inner healing because Jesus came to heal our bodies, but He also came to heal our hearts." 

 

We all have disordered affections and places where we're expecting things from other people that cannot be provided except through God. So we had to figure out what lies are we believing and where were we placing expectations on each other that we should really be looking to God to fill? And where did maybe family of origin things start to hinder our connection and keep us from connecting more intimately and more honestly?

 

And we would sit on that couch when one of us would get shut down or one of us would get hurt, and we would just invite the Holy Spirit and say, "Holy Spirit, we are so messed up. We're hurting each other. Will you help us? Will you come into this moment and will you heal us? Will you show us what lies we're believing or where we have become disconnected from you or from each other?"

 

And through one or two honest prayers, God would bring something to mind and make it more clear how we could take a next step towards oneness and a next step towards healing. 

 

And then where that Philippians 2 passage comes in, it was like we were honoring each other in the living room, on the couch, seeing God, and then God was like, "Now come and be one heart, one mind, one body in the bedroom." And it was almost like He was healing us in our hearts, and then He was healing us in our bodies by reframing sex for us. That it's not this fleshy man's need; it is a place for marital unity and intimacy and oneness that can solidify in the physical what we just did in a spiritual on the couch. 

 

And that set the tone for our first year of marriage, which I look back and think, "What a grace! What a supernatural grace!" Because in our brokenness, we very easily were heading towards a lot of wounding, but God intervened and He taught us a way of leaning into Him and leaning into each other. 

 

That produced amazing fruit. And what the fruit was, was the more sex we had, the more prayer we did, the more one we felt, the more grace we had, the more unity we had, the more joy and lightheartedness we had. And then we were also propelled into being able to love other people outside of our home better because we were loving each other better at home.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:11:14] That is so power-packed with so many truths. Just one more follow-up. As it relates to the theology of body, how do you believe our bodies speak and communicate even when we're not using words?

 

Francie Winslow: So just to clarify, I did not create theology of the body. It was really coined by a man named Pope John Paul II. From 1979 to 1984, he gave about 129 sermons that are all unpacking this idea that our bodies are a physical revelation of invisible truths. I find evidence of that throughout the entire Bible. And that's what Pope John Paul II... he went from Genesis to Revelation, unpacking this truth that God reveals Himself through creation, primarily as the crown of His creation, our bodies and the gift of marriage and the marriage union and the analogy of marriage. 

 

If you see kind of through the Bible, if you think about God started with the union of a man and a woman, throughout the Old Testament He's pursuing Israel like a bridegroom would pursue a bride. He's calling them His bride. He's saying, "I'm your husband" in Isaiah. And in Hosea, we see Him give the instruction for Joseph to pursue the wayward woman just like God pursues us, because He wants to show and present His heart for union and for this marital intimate love that lasts forever. Then we obviously know that Jesus came and calls Himself a bridegroom, that the church is His bride. And in Revelation, we see that there will be a wedding. 

 

So there is this huge Genesis to Revelation revelation that somehow is easy to miss when we're just caught up in conflict management or contracts and kind of seeing it from an earthly point of view. When we see it from a biblical point of view, we see there is a theology here in marriage, in sexuality, and in our bodies. 

 

One of my favorite quotes from Pope John Paul II says, "The body, in fact, and only the body is capable of making visible what is invisible, the spiritual and the divine." And we see in Romans 1 where it talks about how God... we have no excuse because basically through all that God has created, He has revealed Himself. 

 

So in the beginning, God took His very nature and stamped it on the body of a man and a woman, calling them very good so that we could see glimpses of what He's like in maleness, in femaleness, and especially in the union of those two becoming one. And the result of that is this incredible fruitfulness. 

 

[00:13:46] So there's so much theology that is worth digging into, worth being in awe of, worth giving some thought to, because it brings back the goodness and the rightness and the holiness to this conversation that the world is trying to hijack.

 

But when you're talking about what does this look like in real life, the reality that our bodies speak, they're constantly made to reveal something. One of the things that I talk to my kids about on a very non-sexual, regular level is our bodies are constantly speaking. They're meant to be places of God revelation. If your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, it's made to be a place where people see God. 

 

And our bodies are basically walking encounters. So people can see God in the kindness of your eyes and in the gentleness of your, you know, a little back pat. If your friend's having a hard time, you can give them a pat on the back, or we can bring cookies to our lonely neighbor with our hands, make them with our hands. And all of those ways our bodies are revealing the love and the tenderness and the compassion of God.

 

In the marriage bed, if you want to take it a deeper level, when to become one, that's what the marriage promise is, is that I will be one with you forever. So when two bodies become one, it's as if they're telling a bigger story and saying, I recommit myself to you. I love you.

 

If you roll your eyes conversely at your spouse or give them the cold shoulder, your body is speaking. I'm ignoring you. I don't care about you. I'm shut down. But when you lean in with your body, your words can say, "I'm here with you." But when you lean in with your body and you choose connection through sexual intimacy, your body is speaking something beautiful and powerful, which is, "I'm here. I do. I want to continue to lean in to you. I want to be one with you. I want to celebrate our connection. I want to go deeper."

 

So in everything we do, because God made us physical, we are constantly communicating. And I think that's one thing that I've learned is that our bodies are powerful communicators. And what is it that my body is communicating to my spouse right now? Am I communicating that I care, that I'm present, and that I want to pursue more depth with him? Or am I communicating, Hey, I'm distracted. I'm on my phone all day, I'm ignoring you, I'm not making eye contact with you? Those things are also communicating. 

 

So I think it's a fascinating look to look practically in our everyday interactions. And then also sexually, our bodies have the ability to communicate powerfully. And that is one of the things that I think has blessed our marriage is to realize how powerful of an opportunity that is to communicate love.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:16:16] I think that you lay out a great foundation and really have given us a vision for God's view and His vision for sex. Is there anything else specific that the Lord has taught you, Francie, about sexual intimacy within marriage?

 

Francie Winslow: I think I probably brought into it just a lot of shame and a lot of kind of a difficulty being comfortable in my own skin and feeling confident as a wife. And I think part of that is because of my more conservative background and being maybe a little bit more on the modest side and wanting to walk in freedom with the Lord and my expression of love to Him and wanting to walk in freedom with my husband and my expression of love to him. 

 

I think that's been one of the beautiful gifts that I've realized is that marriage is an incredible journey. One of the things my mentor, Juli Slattery, talks about is that sex is not a destination, it's a journey. And we get to continue to learn. 

 

I think that one of the things that's been comforting to me is that I didn't need to know everything that I know now on our first year of marriage. And what I know now is even a sliver of what I'll know 50 years from now. And I can rejoice in that and I can rejoice in the fact that I always have room to grow as a lover, as a wife. 

 

That it's holy to grow our sex life. That it's an adventure to learn different ways of expressing love together, and that it's an invitation to more intimacy together that actually leads to fruitfulness outside of the bedroom as well.

 

And seeing that it's all an invitation and not a should, and that it's an opportunity to build something that not only benefits our marriage, but ripples out to impact the culture of our home and ripples out to even our way that we love and serve the world in our careers and our churches and our communities, it just makes me love God's design, and it makes me love the way He created it, and it makes me want to say more yes to God and more yes to my marriage because I'm constantly discovering how good it is and how good He was to give us this gift.

 

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Laura Dugger: [00:20:00] Jesus transforms us from the inside out. In the same way, you teach what happens in the secret place inside of our marriage overflows to the rest of our lives, and it can benefit our relationships, our parenting, careers, and even the community at large. Will you elaborate on that idea? 

 

Francie Winslow: Totally. I was just kind of alluding to that a little bit. I called it the ripple effect of sex because I think another lie is that sex is just about sex. And you just got to do it and get it done and make your husband happy or, you know, trying to get a baby, trying to conceive or it's kind of like this separated part of our life that is just related to either pleasure or procreation. 

 

What I realized is that in the beginning, the first great commission was given to a husband and wife. God created them, delight in them, blew the breath of life into them, and celebrated their connection by blessing them and telling them, "Be one, be fruitful, multiply, and take dominion together." 

 

And it's that dominion is a place of serving the earth, serving the world, bringing the glory of God into all that He has given us to care for. I feel like that is a powerful vision for marriage. And that's one that we've realized the more intimate we are with God and the more intimate we are with each other in the secret place, the more capacity we have to overflow with life. 

 

On a practical level, I'll say, when Wyatt has a work meeting or when I have a deadline and we are disconnected in our marriage, it feels really hard to be supportive of each other, to be behind each other, to cover each other when there's gaps or weakness. And it just begins to be this grind. There's a lot of conflict. There's a lot of difficulty, a lot of misses, a lot of pain. 

 

[00:21:47] On the converse side, when we have intimacy, when we're pursuing regular connection and going deeper together, there is an overflow of grace and there's an overflow of abundant love for each other that impacts the way we parent together. 

 

Maybe one of our kids is struggling. When Wyatt and I have prioritized oneness and intimacy and we are connected and we're feeling like on the same page, then we are able to parent on the same page and we're able to support each other and back each other up. And then it ripples outside of our home because not only is the atmosphere of our home more peaceful when we are unified and connected, we're able to go to work with more confidence and with more support from each other, which enables us to do better work and to serve people better and enables us to say yes to the ways that God's calling us to serve the church. 

 

Ultimately the whole culture is impacted by the health of the secret place of marriage. Because when marriages are strong and they're thriving and families are thriving, the culture thrives. But when marriages are struggling and our view of sex is warped and there's pain there, families struggle and the culture struggles. 

 

So it is this powerful ripple-out impact that I had no idea sex was related to. But isn't that God's good design? And it is a mirror or a small picture of the bigger intimacy. So you were talking about our intimacy with Jesus. I can't do any good works apart from unity with Jesus. I don't have any good fruit outside of my prayer closet unless I am one with Jesus, unless I am connected to Him. He is my source. He is the lover of my soul. He is the source of all goodness from me. 

 

So the deeper intimacy I have with Jesus, the more fruit I have outside of my little walk with Him and outside of my prayer closet, and outside of my times with Him. But if my intimacy with Him is dry and brittle and empty, I don't have much to give outside. So I just have loved the parallels of those and how true they are.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:23:40] You sum that up so well because there are some huge truths that you're unpacking. I've been spending a lot of time in the Book of John recently. And so you're talking about being connected to the vine and we can do nothing outside of Him. But then also this secret place, this inside-out transformation that starts in marriage and flows out, that is so biblical to see the fruitfulness that comes. Because of fruitfulness, another word for that is multiplication. And you've taught before that multiplication flows through our families. So I just really appreciate that perspective. 

 

Francie Winslow: So good. Thank you. 

 

Laura Dugger: How do you believe that sex in marriage is a way to fight against Satan and his darkness? 

 

Francie Winslow: Well, I do know that Satan is incredibly jealous of image bearers, and he hates the fact that in the very beginning, before the world was even created, he wanted to be like God. He wanted to be equal to God. And he chose that rebellion and got thrown out of the courts of heaven, and as a result, had had this enmity and this hate for the image bearers of God who God said He made in His likeness. Not that we're equal with God, but that we reflect the goodness of God on this earth He gave us to steward. 

 

So the enemy is constantly trying to destroy and dismantle the image-bearing qualities that we carry and also disengage us from understanding them and seeing them. So, for one, I think just knowing that sex is a gift that bears God's image. It's two becoming one in a way that is so intimate and good that it produces fruitfulness. 

 

We just covered how that shows a mirror picture of our walk with Jesus. That when we are one with Jesus our lives become fruitful. But there's also a power of male and female that the enemy hates. And he wants to dismantle our confidence in what is male and what is female. 

 

And he wants to discourage us and detach us from the connection with our bodies that God called good. Because there's a significance to being male and there's a significant stabbing female independent of marriage, just as image bearers. That we see something beautiful about God in a father and we see something beautiful about God in a mother. And even in the physiological nature of a mother in nursing, what that reveals about God is that He's tender. Because if all of us images Him, we can see God revelation within even the anatomy and physiology of a male and a female body. And God loves that and the enemy hates that. 

 

[00:26:16] So I think when we celebrate our maleness, our femaleness, and in the coming together of two to become one, we really do a good number on the enemy's plans. And we really push back a lot of that confusion by celebrating the good design of God and by celebrating it with our kids and honoring it and always in truth and love, giving glory to God for the good ways He made us, the good ways that help us thrive, the good ways that reveal what He's like. 

 

And I will say that in terms of specific marriage, the enemy wants to bring disunity. He wants to bring division, and He wants to separate what God meant to be one. So leaning in in times of discouragement, in times of depression, even in times where we have been struggling with deep grief and trauma within our family because of many factors, we found that sex is a powerful weapon.

 

I'll even say just really short. I have a long story about this, but we were trying to discern whether or not it was time for us to adopt and there was a real division happening within our marriage. I actually was super afraid and didn't want to do it and felt like my plate was too much. And it was just clear that the enemy was bringing a ton of division on what was supposed to be a good thing.

 

So one night we went on a date and realized we were super disconnected and really coming at each other from a bad angle. So we chose to have sex before the date because we know that sex is not just about pleasure or procreation. It's about saying, "I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. I am one with you." 

 

So we did it before our date thinking, Okay... That's just a little side tip. Sex before dates often make better dates. But before that tense date, we had sex because we realized that sex is also a weapon against disunity. It's a weapon against division. And it's a way that we can fight for unity, which brings the blessing of God. So we went on our date... We actually got more disconnected because things were just really deeply, deeply rooted in where we were coming from. 

 

So we came home and we had sex again because we were putting a stake in the ground saying, Though we are disagreeing, though we're struggling through something, we're not going to let it divide us. We're going to continue in a spirit of unity while we work this out. And I think that was a pretty profound moment for us to say sex is about so many things, and one of the things that is also is a stake in the ground for unity, where the enemy might be trying to tear us apart.

 

[00:28:30] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

 

[00:29:01] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: On the other side then, how is sexual intimacy within marriage one way to sow to the spirit? 

 

Francie Winslow: Well, you know, I think the spirit is about unity and he's about fruitfulness and he's about oneness. So when we celebrate it from a place of honoring God's design, we see an abundance of more of the fruit of the Spirit in our marriage, because we're honoring His design and we're inviting Him into it to lead us. We're not perfect. We haven't figured it all out, but we're saying, God, we're sniffing out something good here and we want you to be a part of it. We want to know you more into it. 

 

I will say that when we prioritize intimacy, we call God thoughts afterwards. I often end up writing after we have sex because I feel like there is something... there's a lot of brain chemicals that are being released throughout the brain that are really profound for bonding and attachment and clarity of thought and reduction of stress and all these cool things that God designed.

 

But also intimacy has also just launched us into this capacity to partner with the Holy Spirit outside of our bedroom. So I just see it as a way to celebrate God's good design, as a way to lean into intimacy together, and also as a gift that propels us to partner with the Holy Spirit, not only in our marriage but outside of our marriage, too.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:30:20] And I would love for you to speak to the spouse who may be listening and maybe they're already tired and they're feeling like this is just one more thing to add to my to-do list for the day. What would be your encouragement to reframe that thought into reasons why prioritizing sex with our spouse is so vitally important, even when we don't feel like it right in the moment?

 

Francie Winslow: Oh, I totally, totally get that. As I mentioned, I have six kids and I'm exhausted most of the time. I will say that we enjoyed the idea of sex drive early intermarriage, where he had a big drive and there was passion. I'm not saying there's not passion now. But there's a different passion because we've been married almost 16 years and it's more the reality of we're both tired. 

 

But we realize the gift that God has given us in sex. So we prioritize it from a different way. I will say that we have both come many nights to the bedroom and say, "Oh, we're so tired, we just want to plop in a bed. But we want connection, so let's switch gears. 

 

And that's one of the things that has been helpful language for me. Instead of just telling my husband, "I'm just way too tired" or "Oh, I have a headache" or "I don't know anybody else touching me. I've been clung to all day by little babies" or "I've been working hard." Instead of straight up just switching out into the no category. I just use this phrase, "Hey, I really want to connect with you. Give me a minute to switch gears." 

 

Because it's just a different gear. It's not an impossibility. I just need to switch gears and I need to have a different frame of thinking because I've just been doing six bedtimes or laundry or cleaning up the kitchen and I'm not in the intimacy mindset, but I can get there. So I often go to my bathroom and I've just developed this little conversation with the Lord when I'm really tired and just say, "Okay, Lord, here I am. Give me your strength, because I want to choose connection."

 

And I know now that sex is not about the temporary moment of pleasure. It's about building a marriage of oneness and connection. So just like I might not really feel like working out because I'm really tired, I know that it's good for me and it's a healthy choice for me. So on those tired days, sometimes that's what gets me to say yes. 

 

And I always am glad I do it and I never regret it. And you get that chemical brainwash of oxytocin and dopamine and vasopressin. And it's a gift. It is a gift. But sometimes it's harder to get there on some days than others. But I do resonate with that tired mom. But I also have found that leaning in... we talk about that word a lot too. Just lean in. When you're tempted to lean out, lean in. Maybe if you're both so exhausted, it just looks like a really nice, intimate cuddle or maybe, you know, a different kind of connection. But generally speaking, having sex when you don't feel like it can still be great sex, it just has to be an extra intentional step to get there.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:33:07] I think that's a very mature response because that's when it becomes decision sex rather than drive sex. But the desire can come after that decision is made and that decision for unity. 

 

Francie, I know you and I share such a similar heart of encouragement for marriages. I've noticed that we both want Christian couples to join together more regularly and more freely as they get to experience all of God's good gifts offered within marriage. And a huge part of where this begins is in our minds. So I would love for you now to give us a few positive messages to replace the negative lies we've previously bought into about sex.

 

Francie Winslow: I think the big thing for me is that sex is not about sex. It's about connection and choosing connection. When we choose to lean in, we realize that it's much richer than a transactional exchange. And when we practice curiosity, God, how did you make our bodies, how did you make this gift of sex, we want more, we realize that there is so much more than the silence of the church and so much more than the perversion of the world. 

 

There is this holy other option that is good and that can be adventurous, that can be deeply meaningful when we look at it in a different light. And I think thinking, okay, sex is not about this act, it's not a man's need, a woman's duty, it's a marriage is a gift. And I want to know more about that gift. I want to find out more about what God was dreaming about when He designed it, when He imparted us with this desire, when He actually made our bodies to fit together like puzzle pieces. There's something wonderful about that.

 

I also really love the idea of choosing, like you said, the decision over the drive. I think that is really beautiful. Sometimes women feel two ways: either annoyed by their husband's drive. Like, Oh, he wants me all the time. Re-seeing that. 

 

[00:35:07] I had a woman who's been married 33 years reach out to me. It was so precious. She's in her gray hair years. And she said, "Francie, I listen to your podcast and now I realize that when my husband says, "Hey babe, it's late, I know, but I really want to have sex with you, instead of being annoyed by him, I hear him say he desires me, he wants connection with me. And that's his way of reaching out." So she started celebrating it more, less as a burden, but seeing his drive as an invitation to connection. 

 

The other side is that a lot of women will tell me, Hey, I have a higher drive than my husband. And I think whoever has the higher drive learning that it's not about drive and echoing you again, it's about decision, it's about connection. And knowing that if you do have the higher drive, you can be playful and you can initiate and you can celebrate that. 

 

But drives do one thing. They drive us together and that's worth celebrating. Drives come and go. Drives change with the season and the hormones and the amount of kids or whatever stage you're in. But just knowing that there's a bigger picture at play and that it's worth leaning into and worth choosing connection for.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:36:10] Those are good truths. I just also want to highlight one other that I've heard you share on your podcast before. You posed the question, Do we really want exhaustion to dominate our marriage and our lives? And you went on just to encourage that that heaven on earth connection is possible when we trust God's design over our current emotions or exhaustion.

 

Francie Winslow: Yeah, well summarized. I think that's true. I think our exhaustion and our emotions are fleeting, but God's design is eternal. He imprinted his design on this gift of marriage to show us something bigger. So when we're ruled and tossed by our present emotions, we miss out on the bigger eternal picture that's being revealed through the gift of married sex.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and I always appreciate having a safe place to recommend people to go after this conversation so that they can get further educated about sex within a biblical worldview. I think you do such an incredible job of that. So would you like to share where you could direct listeners to learn more from you?

 

Francie Winslow: Absolutely. I have a podcast called The Heaven in Your Home Podcast. With that being the prayer that we would encounter God, His presence, His rule and reign, His Kingdom of Heaven in every room of our home, reordering our hearts and our desires so that we see His good gifts on sex marriage and His mission through it all. 

 

So the podcast is a great place. I would start closer to the beginning of the podcast. Episode 1, 2, you hear a bit of my story, my background, and then I really build on these ideas that I have gleaned and learned and experienced. I would just be so honored to have any listeners join me there. 

 

This summer, actually in June, I'm launching a discipleship circle, a Heaven in Your Home discipleship circle. So if anybody wants to take the content and really go deeper and have a little bit more access to me through Q&A and a few other deeper resources, you're welcome to join me there as well. That information is on my website, franciewinslow.com.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:38:08] Wonderful. We will make sure it's easily accessible in our show notes today. You know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as my final question for you, Francie, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Francie Winslow: Okay. This is going to be just a fun tip. So in our season of complete exhaustion, just to be real, six little kids, we have found that significant and quality sexual connection is really hard. So we might have a few touch points throughout the week, but we have really realized the fun gift of half-day rates at the local hotel, whatever that is. 

 

You can find cheaper rates on hotwired.com or Priceline and finding the cheapest rate we can at a hotel. And instead of spending money on dinner in a movie, we spend money on a hotel room. And we'll go from like 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. and have a time where we're intimate together. We could take a nap. We could watch a movie. We can have conversation. And it's like a reboot. 

 

So that's my little tip, my savvy sauce is don't overlook the potential for a marriage getaway right in your little town or your city that costs almost as much as dinner in a movie. And it can really be a great marriage reboot for your intimacy. We do it pretty regularly. So that's been a really sweet tip that I'd love to pass on.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:39:33] I love it. You are the first one on the savvy sauce to respond that way. That is so clever. Francie, there is just such an obvious and apparent anointing from the Lord on this message and what He's been teaching you. And I'm so grateful that you've compacted what you've learned in 16 years and offered it to all of us. It has been such a gift to spend time with you today and I would love to invite you back next week as well.

 

Francie Winslow: Awesome. Well, I look forward to joining you. Thank you so much. What a gift!

 

Laura Dugger: [00:40:06] One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

[00:42:04] At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.