The Savvy Sauce

Discovering Your BEST Colors and Style Upgrades for Your Closet and Home with Color and Style Consultant, Carla Gasser (Episode 292)

Discovering Your BEST Colors and Style Upgrades for Your Closet and Home with Color and Style Consultant, Carla Gasser (Episode 292)

 

Romans 12:2 NLT “Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Carla Gasser is a Christian author, speaker, and certified color/style consultant known for helping women connect faith with everyday life, focusing on spiritual and inner beauty through decluttering the soul. Based in Ohio, she's the author of The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul, speaks at women's events, teaches Bible studies, and offers personal style guidance, encouraging authenticity and grace in messy, real-life situations.

 

Carla’s Website

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you walk us through exactly what you do during a color analysis? 

2. What are your best tips for: Make-up, jewelry color, print options, and general styling tips?

3. Now that we have this information, how can we begin to edit and curate our closet?

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:

134 Fashion Meets Faith with Shari Braendel

251 Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:12)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:47)
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.

 

Carla Gasser is my guest today. Not only is she a color and style consultant, but she's also an author and a Bible teacher. We're going to discuss some very practical ways that you can discover what colors are uniquely best for you and then learn also how you can incorporate those into your closet and into your home. I have been wanting to do an episode like this for such a long time.

 

During undergrad, I was able to minor in fashion merchandising and even got to study abroad in Europe with a group of about 50 people. It was so exhilarating, and I've just always been drawn to topics like this one. In addition, what excites me about today is the way that Carla will talk about beauty both inside and out.

 

I can't wait to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Carla.

 

Carla Gasser: (1:48 - 1:51)
So, great to be with you today, Laura. Thanks for inviting me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 1:59)
Well, I am just absolutely fascinated by your work. So, can you explain a little bit more of what you get to do?

 

Carla Gasser: (1:59 - 3:36)
Sure. If we're talking about the outer beauty part of my business, I was trained as a certified color analysis and style consultant by Sheri Brandel, who's the owner, founder, and CEO of Style by Color. What I love most about that training is that we're independent contractors.

 

So, I was able to take that certification and everything I knew and already incorporated it into what my ministry was. My ministry for the past 20 years is talking about how God makes us beautiful from the inside out. But I've always had this struggle because I've loved fashion, and I've loved dressing, and I've loved outer beauty as well, which is something that God created, right?

 

So, a couple of years ago after I did the certification, I kind of incorporated it, and it was easier than I thought because God is the author of beauty. God is beauty. So, because I'm a Bible study teacher and I love digging into God's word, I just focused more on that.

 

And my book and my Bible study is called The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul. So, those two things just ended up meshing beautifully for me. And it also helped me reach out to a wider audience, women who are interested about outer beauty and fashion and style and color and design, but they're looking for something more, and I could provide that for them too.

 

So, it's been wonderful. I mean, I've really enjoyed it.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:51)
Well, it's such a unique pairing. And I think, is there anything you'd want to elaborate on for us as believers, as Christians? Why does it matter, both internal and external beauty?

 

Right.

 

Carla Gasser: (3:51 - 6:00)
I'm speaking about this next week, and I've been starting to incorporate this in when I speak because the world has distorted beauty, right? And they have hijacked it, and they have made it into something that God never designed it to be. But if we look at the other side of it, the church, I feel, sometimes has over-spiritualized inner beauty to the exclusion of outer beauty.

 

So, I was caught in that tension, and I think many believing women are, well, outer beauty is shallow, inner beauty is spiritual, right? And I say it's not either or, it's and both, right? That if God created the sunsets, and all the beautiful flowers, and the things that make us post these images on Instagram of his natural beauty, then God cares about beauty.

 

And I love it when it says he created them in Genesis, and it was very good. The only time he uses very good is when he's talking about humans, man and woman. He created them very good.

 

If you go back to the Hebrew word of very good, it's tov, and it means beautiful. So, when I speak to women, I say, we are going to stop right now, and we are going to say, I was created beautiful. And a lot of women don't say that, can't say that, are afraid to say that.

 

And I'm here to say yes, and it's okay to express that. And I don't stand up there saying, you have to look like me, or dress like me. I want you to discover your unique style, your unique beauty.

 

You know, it's not a one size fits all. It's not like, well, this is the trend, so you've got to wear it. I don't want to put any more pressure on women.

 

I want to free women to embrace their God-given beauty, if that makes sense.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:12)
Absolutely. Well, and one of the ways you do that is through color analysis, but can you walk us through like exactly what you do during a color analysis meeting?

 

Carla Gasser: (6:12 - 13:55)
Color analysis is having a moment, isn't it? And what I'm finding is either if you're my age or older, and I'm in my late fifties, you remember seasonal color analysis, right? And when I start talking color analysis, those women will say to me, well, in the eighties, I was a winter, I was a spring, I was a summer, right?

 

And what am I now? And then if you talk to my daughter's generation, like twenties and thirties, they're hearing seasonal color analysis come back to, but they're watching it on Instagram and TikTok. And they're like, well, I'm a cool summer.

 

I'm a neutral winter. And I'm like, what is going on? This is confusing.

 

So, Sherry Brandel, like I said, the owner and founder of Style by Color was one of the first people who was trained in Color Me Beautiful, the seasonal color system. So, she knows it inside and out. And what she decided to do was to take the tenets, the basics of the seasonal color system, but expand it.

 

So, we don't, you're not going to walk out of a color analysis telling people you're a winter. We have six unique codes, and our codes are more illustrative of what you are. So, I'm a clear, okay?

 

There's warm, there's soft, there's cool, there's deep, and there's light. And what we're doing, and I can show a cute little chart here that helps, what we're doing is we're basing it on the seasonal color system, but we're actually giving you more colors. Because what we're doing when I say you're a soft, I am taking the softer colors, palettes, tones, and hues of summer and fall and giving them to you.

 

So, the other thing that we do that other systems don't do, we take into account your hair. In many of these systems or color analysis appointments, you'll see them put a white cap over a woman's head and just look at her face. We're like, what?

 

Your hair has so much to do with your overall coloring. I mean, I know it's hard for you to do this but imagine me platinum blonde. Wouldn't I look totally different if I was platinum blonde and this very dark hair I have?

 

So, we take into account your hair color. And what we're doing is we're doing tonal color analysis, meaning I am looking at your major color dominant characteristics. Like I just said, your hair color, your eye color, your skin tone.

 

And now I'm not trying to determine whether you're cool or warm or neutral. That got the Color Me Beautiful system into like 24 color codes because they took every season and they broke it down like six ways and it became complicated and crazy. What we're doing is I'm comparing my skin tone to my hair to my eyes.

 

And we give you a rating of one to five, meaning, and it's really good if we're both on camera here, people are going to see this right away. I'm a five. I am the highest contrast level.

 

Can we know why? I've got really dark hair and really light skin and light eyes. So, I'm a five.

 

Now we look at you. You're not a five. You are a lower contrast level because your hair and your skin tone when you turn are pretty similar.

 

And your eyes kind of are in the middle there. So, I would put you at a three or a two. And that contrast level helps me determine your color code.

 

Not only that, it helps me determine what prints and patterns you should wear, what jewelry you should wear. I mean, what makeup you should wear? So, that is how we differ.

 

And I feel that learning the tonal part of this and understanding contrast level was a game changer for me. And that's what I teach my clients. That once you know that it's easy for me to put you in a color code.

 

I also use these capes behind me that help during a color analysis. But I also do things like I, you know, use patterns. You know, this is a high contrast level pattern.

 

So, this is going to look good on someone like me, black and white. If I put a black and white on you, you're going to look like a floating head. It's not cohesive.

 

But what you're going to look better in is something like this because this is medium contrast. Okay, so we do that. We also talk about pop colors.

 

Everybody, you know, will say, well, don't take red away from me. Red's my favorite color. Don't take blue away from me.

 

I wear blue all the time. I'm like, I'm not taking hardly any colors away from you. What I'm teaching you is when you go into a store and you want to know what red, well, my red and your red are very different, right?

 

So, I'm not taking red away from you. I'm just trying to guide you towards the right red. I'm not taking pink away from you.

 

Oh, one color code I do. Pink away from you. I'm just telling you, you know, I need this pink.

 

This is my pink, right? That's my yellow. So, that's what we do.

 

We break it all down. When I do mini color analysis, I'm usually in a boutique and I love working with boutique owners because then I can help people shop right after. But it's a 15-minute quick appointment.

 

I give you digital downloads of your colors. Like I said, every color codes gets 35 plus colors. And if you have them on your phone, when you're out shopping, you're scrolling and going, oh, I can use this.

 

Oh, I can use this. Not only in our digital collection, we give you the trending colors twice a year for fall and winter and spring and summer. Because we both know that colors, you know, have moments, right?

 

Pantone picks their color of the year, which happens to be white this year, which I'm like, that's a little counterintuitive because I don't know that white's a color, but anyways, it's a neutral. So, you have them on your phone and then you can decide and they update. I also have color cards for old school people like me that want the physical representation, and we sell those as well.

 

And you can put those in your purse, and you can use them. But I tell people, use them for your nail color, use them for your makeup, use them even when you're decorating your home. A lot of people gravitate to the colors that they look good in, and you can use them in other ways or even pairing colors together.

 

How do we do that? So that is a mini one. And in that one, I'm just giving you your best neutrals, your colors to avoid, your jewelry choices.

 

But when you come to my home and I do do it, I have a studio in my home, it's an hour and a half to two hour and we go through it all. You know, we go through it all. When I go into your closet, that's a whole different thing.

 

And I do ask that people have a color analysis before I do a closet edit. Because once we know your colors, then organizing your closet, creating and curating a capsule wardrobe becomes so much easier.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 14:08)
Okay, we'll have to follow up on that. But first, I'm just so curious, which color person does not get pink, the warm, warm, warm.

 

Carla Gasser: (14:08 - 17:23)
So, those are people usually with Auburn red hair, you know, they're in that category. So, they get all the spices. And they're the opposite of someone like me, like I can't wear anything with like a gold, yellow undertone.

 

You know, I can't really wear orange, the orange, I have one orange in my palette, believe it or not, but it's super bright. It's not an orange I probably would wear. One of the comments that someone made to me that said they were afraid to get a color analysis because they thought I would take too much away from them.

 

Right? They would I would take away their favorite colors; I would tell them they don't look good in things they look good in. Most people, it's so interesting, because sometimes when you come to my home, I ask you to bring some clothes with you, like bring something that everyone says when you walk in a room, wow, you look great in that.

 

And bring something that you don't ever reach for in your closet, because you're not sure of. And people are closer than they think to knowing their, their right colors. Sometimes I kind of shake them up a bit.

 

But I give them so much that some people say, well, I can't possibly wear all these colors. There's 36 colors here. And I try to tell people focus on your neutrals, because people have different neutrals, right?

 

Focus on your neutrals and then add one to two pop colors per season. Because if you try to wear every color in there, that you know, your closet is going to be very cluttered and very overwhelming. But it really helps you declutter and focus because there are stores I walk into now that I literally make one loop and I walk right back out.

 

Because they're all these light colors and palettes and warm tones. And I call it cafe latte dressing that you would look gorgeous in. But for me, so why would I waste my time in that store?

 

Right, I walk in real quick. And I've taught women how to shop, right? Because how many of us were taught how to shop, we go in, we go to the sale rack, we go in, we look for something that's trending, we go in, and we bring it home.

 

And we stand in front of our closet every morning and say what, I have nothing to wear. Right? I have nothing to wear because our closets are full of things that don't match with each other, that we don't feel good in, that we might have bought because we thought it was a deal.

 

But we don't know if they look good on us. We don't know if they work on our body shape. We don't know how to put them together with what we already have.

 

So, less really is more. I'm not trying to get people to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a whole new wardrobe. I ask, especially in a closet edit, we're going to work first with what you have.

 

And then you might have to go out and buy one or two key pieces. But really my last closet edit, she had to buy three things at the end. That was it.

 

To make over, we talked about, we ended up making her at least 35 different outfits with what she already had and going out and buying three pieces. That was it.

 

Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:14)
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Okay, so that also makes me curious when you talk about the colors that you put together.

 

Yes. Do you use a color wheel, or do you have any practical ways that we can learn how to put different colors together in our home or in our closet?

 

Carla Gasser: (20:14 - 22:34)
Right, that goes back to the contrast level that we talked about, and it also goes back to body shape. So, contrast level is can you wear, you know, high contrast prints or outfits? Like I can wear black and white.

 

Would I tell you to do that? Probably not. So, when you know what your contrast level is, that not only informs your prints, your patterns, your colors, it informs your outfits.

 

Here's a quick tip about dressing for your body shape. All right, we talk about inner column versus outer column. So, if you carry your weight in your belly and this is a, you know, I always tell women when I'm speaking to them, place your hands on the one area of yourself that you wish you could camouflage, right?

 

And some of us go to our hips. Some of us, we all have it, right? But if that is your area, your belly is your area, and I like to camouflage it.

 

What you want to create is an inner column. How do you create an inner column? So, if you were looking at my outfit right now, an inner column would be that this blue here, I would wear the same color pants.

 

I've got an inner column. And then I put this jacket over it because when you look at that inner column, there's no waist definition. There's no, it's just an inner column.

 

It makes me look taller. It makes me look thinner. It, you know, draws the eye up to the face.

 

We always want to draw the eye up to the face. Now, if your problem area is more your hips and you want to camouflage that, but you've got a smaller waist, then you do an outer column. Whereas with me, again, I keep the blue shirt. I tuck it in, but I wear black pants because black and black.

 

So, those are just two quick little tips that people could take away based on, you know, an inner column also works well for people who are large chested, who want to kind of camouflage this part, you know, who have kind of a roundness here and outer column again, works for people who also maybe have a more of a pear shaped or, um, not only pear shaped, but like an hourglass figure, an outer column would work better for, does that help?

 

Laura Dugger: (22:34 - 22:53)
Does that make sense? This is so helpful. And I'm wondering, are there any principles that apply to everyone specifically?

 

I mean, even thinking first when it's summer and when somebody has a tan or when they naturally start graying, how does that work? Does their color change?

 

Carla Gasser: (22:54 - 25:38)
Yes, it does. It does. And we can customize color decks and color codes.

 

So, I have a few women who are transitioning to gray. They're not there yet, but they're in between. So, what I'm going to do is pull out from their deck, anything that is yellowing or has that warmer undertone and keep her in the cool until, and I also say to people, if you come to me and like you're this one day and you say, Carol, I'm going to go red.

 

I'm going to be a redhead. I will color code you again for free because that's how much I believe in the system. And that's how much I believe your hair matters for your color code.

 

So, if you change your color code and you're my color and you say, you know, I'm going to go platinum. Yeah. I just think it'll be fun.

Come back. We will. So, you're right.

 

Your hair has a lot to do with it now in terms of tanning, right? Same thing. I would probably just direct you.

 

I wouldn't change your color code. I would just direct you to certain colors in your, in your color code more than others. If you're darker or lighter, does that make sense?

 

That does that's helpful. So, it's perfectly customizable. And that's the whole thing about when I tell people, when I have you as a client, you can go around and tell your friends and brag that you have a stylist because you do, you know, you can text me, you, I get a lot of texts from dressing rooms, women standing there in the mirror, taking the picture, going Carla, does this work?

 

Does this not work? Do these shoes work? That's what I'm here for.

 

I want an ongoing relationship. I don't like, I mean, I do one and dones. Okay.

 

If I'm in a boutique or something and you come in from out of town, you can still contact me. I do virtual, I do, you know, all these kinds of things, but I love having a client as an ongoing relationship because you might change your body, change your season of life, change. You were working now you're not, or you're going back to work, and you haven't been working.

 

All those things affect what you're going to wear and how you're going to wear and where you shop. I just had a woman who, you know, broke her foot and she's in a boot and she is so upset about this because we just did her closet edit. We just started thinking, well, what shoes should I wear?

 

So, we've been working together to modify her outfits. We've been working together to get her to a place where she still feels comfortable, but she has to wear this boot. Okay.

 

We can work around that. We can do that. You know, and I have people who go on vacation.

 

I have no idea what to pack for vacation. I could only have a carry on. We're going to create a capsule wardrobe for your vacation.

 

We can do that.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:39 - 26:09)
It is crazy to think of how much this plays into our lives every day. And so, once you learn this, I think it can save you time and money. I'm also thinking of one other principle.

 

We always hear about the little black dress, but the funny thing is black is the absence of all colors. So, I remember studying that black near the face, even if that's in your palette, that that's not recommended. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Carla.

 

Carla Gasser: (26:09 - 28:18)
Yes. I would say black near the face only works for a few of us. You're right.

 

And I'm one of them, right? Because of this high contrast, but I still like to break it up with color myself. I have an interesting story for you.

 

I had a friend who really, she should not wear black by her face at all. She is a soft color code. She got invited to a wedding and everyone had to wear black.

 

She freaked out. I just got my colors done. What am I going to do?

 

I have to go to this. I said, first of all, we have to respect the bride and groom. Yes.

 

This is what you want and whatever. What we did, though, is we bought her a huge, chunky leopard necklace. It broke it up and she bought leather leopard shoe shoes and wore the black.

 

So, there are ways. And I say to people, when I take away black from you and you have all these black clothes at home, I'm like, I don't want you to donate everything to goodwill, but we're going to think of ways to break this up. And one of the ways we break it up near the face is a larger necklace, a scarf, a third piece like this, a vest or a cardigan.

 

There are ways to do it without going home and saying, oh my word, I have to throw everything away. And then I'll try to redirect those people. Okay, now that you know your neutrals are no longer black, there are a lot of other great neutrals out there.

 

Dark brown, gray, navy. So, now when you go shopping, don't throw all your black away, but start incorporating other neutrals into your wardrobe that are softer for you and work better for you. And like you asked before, too, are there some colors that everyone can wear?

 

And I would, I could give you one. There's a couple, but one color that is kind of the universal color that everybody has in about the same shade is teal. It's kind of the couch you're sitting on.

 

If I read it correctly in your, on the video, teal is kind of a universal color. So, that's something.

 

Laura Dugger: (28:19 - 28:21)
I had no idea. I love that.

 

Carla Gasser: (28:22 - 28:22)
Yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (28:22 - 28:35)
And have you ever even studied the psychology related to colors? For instance, how we can perceive people differently when they are dressed in their best color?

 

Carla Gasser: (28:36 - 30:08)
No, I haven't personally studied that, but I have seen women. Like I just got a testimony the other day, I was asking some of my clients, like, what would you say? And I had this young mom who said, you know, it wasn't low self-esteem that kept me dressing this way.

 

It was apathy. And I thought that was a really strong word. And she walked into church and she actually sings at church.

 

So, she's up on stage and we just talked about a few tweaks and she's like everybody said something to me after. And they said, “You sang louder, you were glowing, you were shining.” And she goes, “I felt I didn't do anything different, but just wear what we talked about and changed my clothes.”

 

So, I do think people notice, I think that there is a radiance that comes from within. Not only are you more confident, but I do think again, it highlights your face. And when your face is highlighted, people are attracted to that, you know?

 

And I always make a big point when I'm out and about doing my grocery shopping, going to the drugstore, going to the post office, and I see someone wearing the right color. I don't tell her I'm a color now. I don't go through all that.

 

I just said, you know, you look fabulous in that color. And I'm like, give me a big smile if they're not smiling. And they're just like, well, who is this woman?

 

I go, and they walk out like two inches taller.

 

Laura Dugger: (30:09 - 31:30)
When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?

 

Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.

 

Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.

 

We appreciate you. Well, I love that you've mentioned Sherri Brandel because she's the one who founded Style by Color, but she was also a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce. So, I'll make sure and link to her fantastic episode.

 

And I love her testimony. But with you, Carla, at Style by Color, do you ever keep records of the percentage of people who make up each category, or have you even noticed patterns of which ones are most or least common? Yes.

 

Carla Gasser: (31:31 - 33:10)
I think it depends on where you live because when we get all together for consultants, because we do have continuing education, I'm part of their professional development program. So, I'm trained every month in something new, like whether it's hair or makeup or trends or just different things. But we get together once a year for our conference and we talk about where we live.

 

It seems to me, and I live in Northeast Ohio, kind of between Cleveland and Akron, a lot of the women in my area seem to be softs. There's a lot of soft. I do a lot of soft.

 

Very rarely do I do someone like me. Now, if you go down, I think in my family, I'm Italian. Most of my Italian relatives are deeps, not as clear as me because they have more of the olive skin.

 

For some reason, I got this very light skin. I do tan, but I don't tan on my face for some reason. You notice my arms are darker than my face.

 

So, I do think it kind of runs that way, kind of where you live and maybe a little bit by ethnicity or background. However, I have said to people, because we do this tonal color analysis, there can be people who are clear that don't look exactly like me because what am I doing? I'm comparing their hair to their skin, to their eyes.

 

I'm not comparing them to me. So, I think that's what makes this unique and makes it very customizable for people. Yes.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:19)
Makes sense. Okay. And this may sound a little overly dramatic, but how have you seen this process improve someone's life?

 

Carla Gasser: (33:20 - 35:30)
Oh, wow. I wish I could read you. I mean, I have some testimonials here that I was just looking through last night and to get prepared for this.

 

One person said, when I looked at my closet, I felt overwhelmed. I kept buying new things, but none of them seemed to solve my problem. So, many great pieces, but never seemed to be able to pull things together.

 

Carla came to the rescue. Her instructions on preparing for a meeting were concise and clear. And our 90-minute session flew by.

 

By the time we were finished, I was feeling so excited about all the new possibilities. Now I find it so easy to step into my closet, a place that once scared me. Take a quick look and decide what to wear for any occasion.

 

Before, I just had my colors for shopping, but now I have the missing piece of fabric and fit and how to put it all together. So, that's one of them. Another one said thanks for being such an encouragement to me, for showing me how to dress.

 

And so, I feel beautiful. I'm thankful that I've never struggled with self-esteem the way many women do. But for me, I had become very apathetic, knowing I could probably do better, but not really caring or getting frustrated when I tried, when I tried didn't work the way I thought it should.

 

You have helped me to see what many times I've picked close to the right colors or I've settled for good enough when I could have added pieces to make it beautiful. Thank you for listening and obeying what God asked you to step out into this vocation to make women feel beautiful from the inside out. You've been a blessing.

 

So, I do think it has changed women. I have had women say I spend less money. I spend less time.

 

I feel more confident at work. I feel more confident like she said at church, you know, being in front of someone. So, yeah, I think it makes a measurable difference in people's lives.

 

If they apply it, you know, I think there are women who are one and done that come in, they just want to know what their colors are, and they walk out and you know, but even that does add something to your life, I think. So, yes, I do think it makes a difference. It's definitely personally made a difference in my own life.

 

Laura Dugger: (35:31 - 35:35)
So, anything you'd want to elaborate on that how it's made a difference in your own life.

 

Carla Gasser: (35:36 - 38:10)
I think I had gotten into kind of similarly to the testimonial I just read of someone of just, you know, not caring. You know, I had four kids at home. I was running everywhere.

 

I wanted what was comfortable. I wanted what was quick. And what happened was I had gotten into this really gray phase, not realizing that the gray was really reflecting how I was feeling on the inside.

 

And after I was, I went to a speaker's convention, because I'm also a speaker and Sherry actually did my colors. She was at this event. And so, I met her in person, and we have become great friends since I came home and I started changing it and I have three boys and a girl.

 

Who do you think noticed that I was changing before? It was my boys. And my one son said to me, “I love that you're wearing brighter colors.

 

It reminds me of when I was younger, that you always wore colors like that when I was little. Like I always remember my mom showing up and she was in and he goes, and you haven't done that in a long time. And I thought there's something more like we were talking before about the psychology.

 

I would also feel like it was a spiritual thing too, for me that I had kind of just settled in a lot of ways. And I think women think that they're hiding in bigger clothes or in drab colors because they don't want to be seen or they don't feel their worth or they have shame, they have regret, they have all these things. And I used to also when I would dress up and go places, have you ever had people say to you, why are you so dressed up?

 

Why are you wearing that? And it would make me shrink. It would make me feel awful.

 

Like I'm not trying to show you up. I'm not trying. I just, this is what I like to wear.

 

And I changed that total attitude around. And we would go out with the group of women. They're like, there you are, Carlo.

 

What are you wearing that for? And I said, you know what? I'm your fancy friend.

 

Call me your fancy friend. I'm going to dress up like your fancy friend. And when we go places, this is what I feel like.

 

And I said, and if you want to wear sweats, I don't care. That's what makes you comfortable. That makes you feel good about yourself.

 

But I feel like sometimes we dress for other women and other people before we dress for ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:11 - 39:13)
Well, that's really good. And even how you mentioned there's a spiritual component. I think of Jesus teaching on so many object lessons and that he would use something external to talk about the internal spiritual condition.

 

And it reminds me of another guest, Jamie Erickson, who wrote the book on holy Hygge, just on that concept of our inner life will be reflected outwardly as well. And last piece, just with the psychology, I do remember one thing with the psychology of color, just that when somebody is in their best palette, that we naturally trust them more. And so, it's just unique, all the things that we're probably unaware of, but this really does matter.

 

Absolutely. And so then beyond just our clothing, can you share some more of your best tips? I'm thinking makeup and jewelry, colored print options, and just your general styling tips.

 

Carla Gasser: (39:14 - 43:53)
I think one other demonstration that I do a lot, too, that I do with women is I think we undervalue the importance of accessories, that you could take a very simple outfit and change it up with accessories. And it's not buying more clothes. It's just taking things off, adding things.

 

And so, I went to a women's group here in town and I wore a basic jumpsuit. And I told them, this is how I would wear this jumpsuit if I was just running out and about. And I put tennis shoes on.

 

I put a simple necklace on, simple handbag, one out. And they're like, great. I said, okay, now I'm going to meet some friends for lunch.

 

Same jumpsuit. Put sandals on, put a little cardigan on, put a thicker necklace on. So, I was teaching them, you could take one outfit and style it three to four or five different ways just by accessories.

 

So, that's one tip. I would say don't neglect or overlook accessories. The other thing is, know what accessories work for your frame.

 

If you've ever seen a woman who's like 5'10", wearing a purse this big, it doesn't work. Likewise, someone who's 5'2", wearing one of those huge canvas tote bags, you've got to match your accessories to your frame. Right?

 

So, if you're, you know, 5'2 and under, your accessories need to be more delicate and smaller to fit you. Likewise, like someone was saying, but, you know, I love those statement necklaces that you wear. And I'm only five, you know, my mom is tiny.

 

She's only like 5'1", 5'2". And I'm like, what you can do if you want to achieve that effect is layering your necklaces. They're all tiny and delicate.

 

But if you put three of them together, you're giving the illusion of having something more, but it's not overpowering you, something like that. So, I think those two tips that women, you know, can overlook is accessorize. And one tip that Sherry gave that revolutionized it for me, and I didn't believe her when she first told me this tip, and yet she stands by it.

 

And now I stand by it. When we were growing up, my mom said that your shoes must match your purse or your handbag. That was a rule, right?

 

Sherry does not believe in that rule. She says your shoes must match your hair. So, I thought about that because I wear all different color shoes, but I had gone to a wedding that summer and I wore a red dress to the wedding.

 

It's one of my best colors, right? But that was the time when those nude shoes were really popular. You know what I'm talking about?

 

They were kind of patent and nude, and they were, you know, rounded toe, high heel. And I thought, well, I'm not going to the prom. So, I'm not going to buy red shoes, right?

 

I need to buy a neutral shoe to go with a red dress. So, I went back and looked at a picture of myself in that red dress standing next to my husband in those shoes. And it looked like I was floating.

 

I took that dress on, but again, I put black shoes on, and I took a picture of myself and I put them side by side because I needed proof. I need visual proof. Totally different look.

 

Because what she says is when you're wearing all one color, a lot of times one color and outfit, your shoes and your hair frame your outfit. And I can show you picture after picture where it works. And when I speak to women, I put those pictures up there and they're like, and I'm like, I know, isn't that crazy.

 

And she also says your handbag should match your hair, your everyday handbag. Nine times out of 10, I asked this question, if I gave you $500 and you could go buy a really nice designer handbag, what color would you buy? 75 to 80% of women say what?

 

Probably black, black, right? They all say black. And then I'll show them pictures of how much better a woman looks pulled together when her everyday handbag, that doesn't mean you can't wear a pink handbag or, you know, to spice up your outfit.

 

If it's part of your accessory look, that's not saying that, but your everyday standard handbag that you're going to invest money in, that's going to be with you for several years should match your hair.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:54 - 44:04)
Wow. That is so interesting to me. And I think it would be fun to do pictures, the before and after, and just see that sometimes those visuals are helpful.

 

Carla Gasser: (44:04 - 44:12)
They help a lot, but you'll start noticing it now or go online and start looking. I'll tell the women to do that and they'll, they'll be blown away.

 

Laura Dugger: (44:13 - 44:21)
Well, and now that we do have all of this information, how can we begin to edit or curate our closet?

 

Carla Gasser: (44:23 - 47:24)
So, when I do a closet edit, I do give them some homework to do before I get there. And I ask them to go through their closet and do, um, for three to four things. First thing is pull out anything that you're going to donate or consign.

 

Okay. If you haven't worn it in two years, if it's stained, if it's, you know, that might be a throwaway, but you're going to make those piles, give away, throw away, and then maybe consign if it's something really good. And, you know, this is also based on first having a color analysis.

 

Like I said before, if you don't have a color analysis, it's very hard for me to go into your closet. Okay. So, that's one thing you do next thing.

 

We pull up anything that is seasonal from your closet. If you're not wearing it now, because you live where I live and you're not wearing sleeveless or shorts or whatever, put that in a bin, put it away. The other thing is put away a trendy.

 

Okay. Skinny jeans were a thing, and everybody loved their skinny jeans. Do I think skinny jeans might come back?

 

They might, if they, if you still like them, if they still fit you, put them in a bin, put your trending kind of clothes, long cardigans aren't in right now. How many long cardigans do you have? You probably have five, you probably have six and you probably love them.

 

It's okay. I'm not telling you to throw them away, put them in a bin and we're going to store those someplace else. So, there are certain things that you could start doing.

 

The other thing that I think is very helpful is I line my closet up with my neutrals first, and then my colors, you know, white, black and gray and Navy are my neutrals. I lined those up. Then I start lining up my colors and my patterns.

 

So, I think that's a very helpful way because, you know, putting outfits together becomes a lot easier because I pick a neutral, I pick a pattern, I pick a color, you know, kind of like you're probably too young for animals where the kids had to match the tags. When we were little, it was like, we went to the store and there was a, you know, a clothing line called grant or animals. And like, you match the monkey with the monkey, the monkey had on the top, the tag was like a monkey and the tag in the bottom.

 

There you go. There's your clothes. So, I mean, there are systems.

 

I also love boutiques. And I'm noting that noticing this more about boutiques that are color coded. There's a boutique in my town that you walk in, and she's got all the beige and neutral colors here.

 

She is all black and white here. She has all her blues here. And wow is easy to shop when they do that for you.

 

And I think that's coming back. I'm seeing that more, like I said, in independently owned boutiques. I don't think you're going to find that as much.

 

But even I went into the loft the other day and they had their clothes kind of in a color. So, that I think helps too. That helps a lot.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:25 - 47:37)
That's a great tip for organizing our closet. And is there any edit that you would want to make to our makeup bag or addition that you just think everybody should try?

 

Carla Gasser: (47:39 - 48:58)
We work with a company that does lipstick and lip gloss by color code. And it's called Lipstick Boss Beauty. And I sell that as well.

 

And I think women underestimate the power of a lip. Now, because I'm so pale, I absolutely need it. You know what I mean?

 

But even for people who aren't pale, she sells them by color code. And I have samples with me, and I always have women try it on. And they are so surprised at how it brings the look together.

 

You know, I know a lot of women are intimidated by a lot of makeup, eye makeup, whatever. But I say if you put on a lip gloss, a good foundation and blush and mascara, you don't have to worry about the rest if you're not into it. If you're into it, great, go.

 

But I also said when you go to Sephora or Ulta or even your local drugstore that has a lot of good makeup that you probably can use, bring your colors with you. That will help you pick out a blush. That will help you pick out a lip color.

 

But yeah, I think women totally underestimate just a simple lip gloss, tinted lip gloss or lipstick. I think it really pulls things together.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:59 - 49:11)
And I love, I love that idea and just all of your offerings. So, if anybody wants to give this a try, can you share more about the resources that you have available?

 

Carla Gasser: (49:12 - 51:51)
Yeah, I would think that the best place I would send them to is my website, which is just my name, www.carla, with a C, Gasser, G-A-S-S-E-R. And on there, there's a page that has all of my services. And one of the things on there that I keep telling women to take advantage of, you could book a free 15-minute consultation with me.

 

I do that for everyone. If you just don't even know where to start, and you're like, I just want to learn more. I just want to know how I could do this.

 

Also, my first client ever was from Canada, virtually. When I first got, you know, she had followed me for my faith resources and all of that. And when she saw I got certified, she reached out to me, and I can do virtual appointments.

 

If you send in your photo to me, we have a whole system of plugging it in and working through it. And we put a whole presentation, I create a customized presentation for you, and I send it to you. But we talk like this, but you know, I take your photo and I put it into kind of capes like this, but they're digital.

 

And we see, and so yes, but I would start with looking at my page and then booking that free 15-minute consultation to just ask me, you know, where do I start? What do you offer? And everything's listed there.

 

So, I also, if you want to be part of my email list, you could sign up online on that same page and you get access to a free style personality quiz. Because style personality, we talked about it a little bit earlier that you don't have to dress like me. We have four style personalities that we kind of curate, but I created a quiz so that you can kind of answer these questions and figure out, oh, I lean more towards this.

 

And once we do that, then I can tell you more what places to shop because I'm not going to send someone who is more of a casual, a natural chic to a Chico's. That doesn't fit their style. They would probably go to J.

 

Joe, you know? So, it's kind of that kind of a thing. So, that's just a fun little freebie that I give away if you want to sign up.

 

And my email list, I usually, my newsletter goes out almost every Tuesday or Wednesday with different tips. I give you links to things. I give you examples.

 

I'm really good about showing you pictures of things. We talk about trends. We talk about all kinds of things.

So, yeah. And that's just free to be part of my newsletter.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:52 - 52:11)
That is incredible. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode, which you can find on your podcast platform. Or if you go to thesavvysauce.com under show notes, you can find all of the links for today's episode. And are you willing to share, what are those four? Did you say personality?

 

Carla Gasser: (52:12 - 53:39)
Yes. One is called natural chic. The next one is called classic modern.

 

The third one is style fashionista. And the fourth one is creative original. So, I ask you a ton of questions based on like, what do you feel comfortable in or what fabrics you like?

 

And based on that, you add up, you know, kind of, and if you're mostly A's, you're this, if you're mostly B's, you're this, C's, D's. So, it just helps you. Because again, I think that is a missing piece for a lot of women.

 

They don't know what their style is. And so, they look at someone like, oh, I love that. But why doesn't that look good on me?

 

I go, well, does it feel like you? Well, if it doesn't feel like you, then that's why you're not comfortable in it. You know?

 

And like I said, you know, I like to push the envelope a little bit more. I am not going to be, you know, a classic modern. I am more of a style fashionista or creative original.

 

I mean, I found this, this is like an old, in a boutique in Italy of all places. If you see, it's kind of like got these raw edges because they took a man's old suit jacket, cut it, and then put all these pearls on it. I mean, you're not going to find that.

 

And not every person wants to wear something like crazy as that, but I love it. You know? So that's my personality.

 

But someone else is just like, I just love silk and linen and good cotton. And I like to feel comfortable. Great. I can recommend tons of clothes for you and tons of places to shop.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:40 - 53:43)
I love that. Well, and I think that piece is so fun.

 

Carla Gasser: (53:43 - 53:44)
Thank you.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:44 - 54:09)
And it's so great to see how you dress everything to your personality and you reflect beauty inside and out. But Carl, I think you may already be aware we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

 

Carla Gasser: (54:11 - 55:06)
I would say my Savvy Sauce is allowing God to transform me from the inside out and make me beautiful. I love the clothes. I love the fashion and the colors.

 

I've talked to you about it for over an hour. I could keep talking about it. It is a passion of mine, but if there was a secret Savvy Sauce to that, it would be inviting God in to transform me and make me beautiful from the inside out, because there are a lot of beautiful people out there, right?

 

But if they're not reflecting God's beauty, then we're missing it. And when I want people attracted to me, it's so that I can share with them the hope that's within, not so I can tell them where to get the best shirt or wear the best color. I want to ultimately bring them the hope of Jesus.

 

That's why I do it. So, that's my Savvy Sauce.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:07 - 55:40)
Well said, Carla. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful combination of giftings. I just love that you're a Bible teacher and a color analysis or consultant.

 

And that's in addition to the many other roles that you hold. But practical chats really do help us to live intentionally. And you've done that for us today.

 

So, thank you for sharing your fascinating career with us. I love your expertise and I really enjoyed getting to host you. So, thank you for being my guest.

 

Carla Gasser: (55:40 - 56:05)
And thanks for doing what you're doing. I love stuff like this. This is great.

 

And it's bringing women together. And like you said, it's giving them that practical knowledge that we all need and can look for. There's so many places that you can go to, and not all of that knowledge is uplifting or leading you in the right direction.

 

So, I'm thankful for people like you who do what you do as well. So, thank you.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 59:22)
Thank you. Appreciate that. One more thing before you go.

 

Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.

 

But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.

 

So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.

 

He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.

 

Romans 10 9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.

 

I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.

 

In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.

 

You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called the Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.

 

So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.

 

Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.

 

Luke 15:10 says, "in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.

 

You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

 

PRACTICAL Wisdom for Parenting Adult Children with Dr. Gary Chapman (Episode 291)

PRACTICAL Wisdom for Parenting Adult Children with Dr. Gary Chapman (Episode 291)

 

John 15:5 NIV ““I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Dr. Gary Chapman is an experienced and well-respected family counselor, and a well-known author having written more than forty books. He hosts a nationally syndicated radio program, A Love Language Minute, and a Saturday morning program, Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, that air on more than 400 stations.

 

The 5 Love Languages, one of Chapman’s most popular titles, topped various bestseller charts for years. It has been published in more than 50 languages, sold more than 14 million copies and is currently on the New York Times best-seller list. Dr. Chapman has been directly involved in real-life family counseling for more than 40 years.

 

Dr. Chapman holds B.A. and M.A. degrees in anthropology from Wheaton College and Wake Forest University, respectively. He received his Ph.D. degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and has taken postgraduate work at the University of North Carolina and Duke University.

 

Dr. Chapman and his wife, Karolyn, have been married for more than 45 years and reside in Winston- Salem, N.C. The Chapmans have two grown children, Shelley and Derek.

 

5 Love Languages Website

 

Thank you to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Are there any other practical things we can be doing now, while our children are still in the home, that ideally sets us up for a healthy relationship once they launch out of our home? 
2. For parents approaching the new season of parenting young adults, what are the best practices for navigating this transition?
3. If we do find ourselves in a season where our adult child and maybe his/her family is living with us, what guidelines do you suggest to honor both parties?

 

Previous Episodes of the Savvy Sauce with Dr. Gary Chapman:

85 Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

182 Things I Wish I’d Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman

191 Friendships Heal Racial Divides with Dr. Clarence Shuler and Dr. Gary Chapman

220 Cultivating Healthy Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman

 

Related Articles:

Family Discipleship Tools

My 10 Favorite Parenting Books

How Can I Enjoy My Kids More?

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*‍ ‍

 

Music: (0:00 - 0:11)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:04) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger. I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

 

Dr. Gary Chapman is my amazing returning guest. I'm going to link to his other episodes on The Savvy Sauce, where we've covered a variety of topics, from the five love languages in marriage or in families, parenting teenagers, and just overall creating a loving home and family environment.

 

But today, we're going to actually focus on a later stage of life, parenting adult children. Whenever I get a chance to talk with Dr. Gary Chapman, he just oozes wisdom on every topic that we've covered, and I know you're going to feel the same way after concluding the message today. I've just noticed this theme that anytime I talk to somebody who's a few seasons ahead of me, they consistently said the same thing, that their hardest stage of parenting was parenting adult children.

 

And that shocked me, so I wanted to seek out the wisdom of somebody who's gone before us and bring in this expert who can give us wise counsel so that all of us can delight in parenting well and enjoying all of the seasons. Dr. Gary Chapman is going to do exactly that today.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Chapman.

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (2:04 - 2:07) Well, thank you. I'm delighted to be with you again.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:40) Well, our main topic for today is going to be about parenting adult children, especially after completing your amazing resource. But I think it'd first be helpful to back up a little bit and just have you share how we can be proactive now while our children are still in the home. If we're hoping to have wonderful relationships when we launch our children, when they're grown adults.

 

So, can you just start off by sharing the dangers of both under-parenting and over-parenting?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (2:41 - 7:35) Well, I think, first of all, as parents, we have to keep in mind we have 18 years. Because in our culture at 18, they're typically going to college, get a job or join the military. So, we have to be thinking independence.

 

That is doing everything we can to help them to be able to take care of themselves. And when we're not around. So, first of all, I think it means that we need to make sure we are expressing love to them in a way that's meaningful to them.

 

That our children feel loved. I've often said to parents, the question is not, do you love your children? The question is, do your children feel loved?

 

And that's where the five love languages of children and the five-love language of teenagers has helped so many parents realize what makes one child feel loved doesn't make another child feel loved. So, you have to discover their love language and on a regular basis be speaking that love language to them. I think another factor is that I would encourage parents, especially if they're in the teenage years or 10 and up, have maybe once a month have breakfast with one child.

 

Take them out to breakfast, just one child, so that you can talk about whatever they want to talk about. And you can talk about whatever you want to talk about. But if they know that that's a part of life and that's where they can ask you questions when nobody's around, and you can have conversations with them.

 

I just found that with my own kids. That was great. And they say to me, they look back on that as a very positive experience, is having that individual time with me.

 

Of course, we only had two children. Now, if you have five children, and I only did it once a month, but five once a month would be every week, I guess. But it's just an idea.

 

But I think if they feel loved, and they feel like that we're a safe place where they can talk about and ask questions about things, and we can talk openly, that's a big part of getting them ready. The other thing that I've suggested to couples is, what if you make a list? And if your children are 10 or up, let them help you make a list of all the things they would like to know how to do by the time they're 18.

 

And some of them may say, well, I'd like to learn how to cook, or I'd like to learn how to boil eggs. Or I might like to learn how to take a tire off of my car, put it back on, put the spare on. Amazing, you know, what they might want to do.

 

And that may vary with each child. But you ought to think in terms of what would you like for them to be able to do. And then you want to be working on those things while they're still with you.

 

If you want them to be able to make up their own bed, you can start that at five years old. You know, by the time they get to be 18, they got it down. If you don't want them to know how to make up a bed, then they're going to go to college and never make up a bed. And they're going to get married and never make up a bed.

 

And if they marry somebody that thinks a bed ought to be made up, then they got a conflict. So, it can be little things like that.

 

But I do think that for most parents, they would hope that the children will learn a little bit about cooking. You know, because we have to eat. And it's an advantage.

 

Anybody that gets married is happy if they marry somebody that knows how to cook. Whether it's the husband or the wife. So, I think that's a huge issue.

 

But keeping the flow of communication open with the children so that they feel like they're safe with you. That they can communicate with you. That is huge.

 

And I'll be very honest; there are a lot of parents that don't do that. They're so involved in their work and in other activities that they don't really talk with their kids very much. You know, they might watch a ball game together or something, but they don't really talk about life.

 

And consequently, when the kids go off and they don't feel a real attachment to you, they're far more out there on their own now. And they're likely going to have more problems than if they had a close connection with you. Because if they have a close connection, even in college, they'll ask you questions.

 

They'll communicate with you. And communication is the lifeblood of relationship. So, anything you can do to foster that. Wonderful.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:37 - 8:03) So great. I love those practical tips for what we can be doing now. And I'm just curious, with all of your travels and speaking around the world, and throughout the decades, just seeing changes, do you have any caution for parents of what to avoid or even what to focus on currently to set them up well for their relationship in the future with their adult child?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (8:04 - 10:42) I think one is talking to them about what they think they might like to do when they grow up. Having those kinds of conversations. And what that might look like.

 

Because our daughter, for example, when she was eight years old, said to us, “When I grow up, I'm going to be a doctor.” And we said, “Well, honey, if that's what God wants, then that would be fine.” But in high school, she took four years of Latin.

 

Three years of chemistry in high school. She was serious. And so, if they say they want to be something, then you have to help them think about what kind of requirements would that be to do what you're thinking about doing.

 

And another thing would be to, in high school, let them have conversations with somebody that you might know in your church or your circle that does that. If they think they'd like to be a businessperson, for example, or sell cars, or run a business, or try to have a conversation. And most adults who are in a business or who are doing anything, they'd be happy to talk to a teenager that thinks they'd like to do this.

 

And that person can give them great advice in terms of what you might be doing now in high school and what you might do if you go to college and all that sort of thing. So, I think because vocation is a huge part of life. And I think the other thing, of course, is we need to be sharing our faith.

 

If we're Christians, we need to be sharing our faith with them. And to me, that means things like the very beginning, as early as you can start it, having a devotional time for the whole family every night. And what my wife and I did when they're just all the way along, one of us would go to the bed with them when we put them to bed and get on our knees beside the bed and pray with them.

 

And if they get older, then they start praying. But when they see when we teach them our faith, and of course, having them involved in a church and all that sort of thing is so very helpful to kids. And in the teenage years, for them to have a place to go and do things with other Christian kids.

 

Again, you know, the church can't raise kids. That's our responsibility. But the church can be a real source of help with our children, where they can interface and have other people that are teaching them things about God and about life.

 

So, all of that, I think, is important.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:43 - 11:22) I love that. I'm hearing themes of open communication both ways, where we're sharing and imparting and discipling, but they're also expressing their wants or needs or desires. And I think also a theme of purpose, instilling purpose in them, which gives a great vision for long term.

 

But now let's speak to parents who are approaching this new season of maybe their teenager turning 18 or moving out. And now the parents are finding themselves transitioning to parenting young adults. So, what are the best practices for navigating this transitional season?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (11:23 - 15:48) Well, that's why I wrote this book. Because a lot of parents’ struggle. And some over parent, you know, after they moved out, they over parent.

 

They want to keep talking with them every single day and tell them what they ought to be doing and all that kind of stuff. And the child feels like, you know, I can do some things on my own, you know. And then some are under parent.

 

They just, if they go to college, they go to college. They might talk to them once a week or something, you know. So, I think we have to just think in terms of what feels good for the child, you know.

 

Because you to call them when you don't know their schedule, you probably have a hard time. Far better to ask them, how would you like to talk for us to talk? And when would be a good time in your schedule that you could call us, you know.

 

So, I think working out some things about how much contact we're going to have because they want a sense of freedom. And they should have. And we've been training them for independence.

 

So, but we also want to keep in contact with them. We want to, you know, have some ongoing time with them. And depending on now many times today, they're living at home while they go to college.

 

So, you have an extended opportunity. To have an influence on their lives. But that's where you have to talk about, now what's our pattern going to be?

 

Because you're going off to college, but you're going to be coming home every night to be here. And we're happy about that, you know. If that's what you want to do.

 

Obviously it's saving money for the parents because they don't have to pay for a dorm room. So, but we talk about, you know, can we agree on kind of a bedtime? Because if you're out at one o'clock, you know, I have a hard time sleeping.

 

Because you just, you know, I think, wonder what's happened to them, you know. So, could we have a kind of a set time that you shoot to be home? And if you realize there's something turned up, you would call me.

 

You call one of us and say, you know, I know I normally get home at whatever time, but right now this is what's happened. So, I need to do this and all. Okay, honey, okay.

 

That's fine. You don't want to over control them. But if you're going to be home, you have to think about yourself as well as them.

 

Because you've got a life to live. Your life has to go on while they're developing their new lifestyle. So, I think conversations again, it's really important at that stage of life.

 

And keeping in contact but not over controlling them. And I'd say make suggestions rather than like giving your advice. You know, just to say, you know, you ought to do this.

 

Or maybe now they're looking for a job, you know. And you say, well, you ought to get that, you ought to get that resume sent in today if you want to get a job. And now you're putting pressure on them, you know.

 

But you could say just as easily, you know, one suggestion that I'd suggest that you think about is maybe getting in your application as soon as possible. Because probably the sooner you get it in, the more likely you might, you know, be able to get the job. So rather than telling them what they need to do, make suggestions rather than demands.

 

Because again, we want to foster independence. We don't want to control their lives. We want them to be free to make decisions.

 

But if they ask advice, it's fine. Give them advice if they ask advice. If they don't, it's okay to give them a suggestion.

 

But give it as a suggestion, not as something, well, you ought to do this, you know. So, we don't want to over-control them. Otherwise, we're really going to push them away.

 

No young person wants to be over-controlled by their parents. And yet, they need our input. And if we have a positive relationship, they'll probably ask us for our input, you know. It's a good relationship.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:50 - 17:50) I think that really requires humility on both sides. And that's great and worthwhile to cultivate that in any phase of life. ‍ ‍

 

And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

 

Also, Dr. Chapman, have you noticed any universal challenges or frustrations from both sides, from adult children and the parents who have raised them just in that phase of life, maybe things that we can be prepared for?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (17:50 - 23:36) Yeah. Well, I think one thing is that there are a lot of young adults who feel like their parents are trying to control their lives and that's not a positive thing. I think there are a lot of parents that are very disturbed over the decisions their young adult children are making.

 

And this is hard. I can understand that. It's hard.

 

When you see them, for example, telling you, I've decided not to go to church this semester or I've decided, I don't think I want to go to church anymore. Well, you come down hard on them and say, now, da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da. You're just pushing them away.

 

Far better to ask questions. That's interesting, honey. What leads you to say that?

 

And then just keep asking questions. Keep asking questions. And then I think we have to do what God does.

 

We have to give them freedom. And we can honestly say, after we've listened to them and they tell us why, we can say, well, you know, it's your decision, honey. I mean, you're an adult now and it's your decision.

 

You know that. I'm not real happy about it, but it's your life. And, you know, again, whatever kind of relationship you've had with them spiritually and how you shared with them spiritually is going to have an impact here.

 

But I think parents have a hard time when their children make decisions that hurt them. You know whether it's moral decisions or whether it's spiritual decisions or whatever the decision. But what we don't want to do is cut them off.

 

Because if we say, “Well, if that's the lifestyle you're going to live, I don't want you in my house anymore.” And there are parents that have said those kinds of things. Now you've lost all opportunity to have a positive influence on them. And it was your choice.

 

Now, if they break off from you, and this happens a lot too, where a parent, a child is deciding a lifestyle that they know their parents don't like. And the parents have come down on them really hard.

 

And every time they get together, they're preaching them a sermon. And the adult child says, well, I'm just not going to have contact with you. Every time I come home, you're on my case.

 

I'm not going to answer your phone. And I'm not going to answer your text. Well, again, we can't keep them from doing that.

 

But what we want to do is to try to keep the relationship open and not demanding things of them so that they won't cut us off. Because if they cut us off or we cut them off, we've lost opportunity to have an impact on their lives.

 

So even if we disagree with them, and as I said, “God gives his children freedom. If you want to disobey God, you can. You'll suffer the consequences, but you can.” And we have to give them the same freedom.

 

And we can say things like, honey, it hurts me that you're choosing to do that. But I want you to know that I love you. And I will love you no matter what.

 

And I will pray for you. I love you. And if you ever want to talk further about this, I'd be happy to talk further with you.

 

But I love you, even though I disagree, obviously, with what you're choosing. But that kind of approach is far healthier. And chances are, listen, the prodigal son's father didn't go out there trying to bring him back.

 

He waited till God brought his son to the pig pen. And if they're making poor decisions, they're going to end up in the pig pen. But now, they've got a picture in their mind of a parent who loved them.

 

And they do what the prodigal son did. I'd be better off working on the farm at home than out here in the pig pen. And they come home.

 

And, you know, they come home often with regret. And then we receive them back. And now we're reunited.

 

Now we've got another chance here. But I think as parents, you know, we're so concerned. And I understand that.

 

And we should be concerned. And we want them to make wise decisions and make lifestyle choices that we know are healthy and we know are right. And it breaks our heart when they're not.

 

But because out of our pain, we often make poor decisions ourselves. You know, we retreat them in a way that's negative and condemning and demanding. And so, they walk away.

 

Far better to express the truth about how you feel. They already know they're hurting you. But you express it to them.

 

But you let them know I love you and I will always love you no matter what you do. Now you've kept the door open.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:38 - 24:01) And I think the fruit of the spirit that really stands out in that response is gentleness and that that would go a long way. But also, if we are at that phase of parenting adult children, a lot of times around that time comes grandparenting as well. So, do you have any wise counsel for grandparents?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (24:02 - 27:21) Yeah, I would say. And again, a lot depends on how close you are physically. If you live in North Carolina where I live and your grandkids live in Portland, Oregon, that's one thing, you know.

 

But if you live in the same town as a grandparent, you might be keeping them after school when they get out of school. You know, the kids, you were keeping them. Now they're, you know, of course, they grow up.

 

But I think grandparents can play a key role in the lives of children. And the earlier it starts, the better. And even if they do live far away, you can still have contact.

 

Now we can do FaceTime. We can see them. They can see us.

 

You know, you can do that when they're four years old or three years old. So, I think having that kind of contact if they live away from you is really, really good. And you can even play games, you know, online with them at different stages and all.

 

So, the more you do when they're little to build a bond between them, the more likely they are when they get older to keep in contact with you. For example, my granddaughter, who is 25 now, she calls her grandmother, my wife, she calls her every Sunday afternoon at three o'clock. And if she, if something in her work schedule or whatever doesn't allow it, she'll send her a text and say, Grandma, I can't call you at three today, but I'm going to call you at five because of da-da-da-da-da.

 

That's absolutely wonderful, you know. And so, I think we build that relationship when they're young and chances are as grandparents, then we will have a positive contact with them as they grow up in the future. And again, we're not, we have to remember as grandparents, two things.

 

Number one, I'm not the parent. The parents are the ones who set the rules. But I am a grandparent.

 

And so, when they're at my house, I'm not going to violate the parent's rules. Whatever the rules are of the parents, that's okay. But we're going to do some things, you know, when we're together that maybe your parents don't do with you.

 

Maybe they don't take walks. Maybe they don't take you to the park. Again, depending on the age, you know.

 

But if you live close as they grow up, you try to stay involved in their activities. If they're into sports or if they're in a play at school, as grandparents, you try to go to those things, you know, which communicates to them, man, they care about me. So, the more you can be involved in their lives when they're young, the better the chances are that you will have a positive relationship with them when they get to be adults.

 

And again, I think grandparents can have a tremendous impact on their grandchildren.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:22 - 28:34) I completely agree and it's fascinating sometimes to see the same lesson that we're trying to teach as parents. Sometimes it just takes one grandparent to reiterate that or to share it and it clicks for our kids. So, there is a supernatural, even anointing, it seems, on that relationship.

 

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Is there also any research that you've come across for factors that set adult children up well to be healthy in their relationships and independent from relying on their parents and just well-adjusted overall?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (28:35 - 32:49) You know, I don't know specific research percentages and that sort of thing, but I do know that there's an awful lot of young adults today that are not mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally healthy. And there's a lot of reasons for that because many young adults have grown up in homes where their parents divorced and that's had a tremendous impact on them. And loneliness is a pandemic on college campuses today all over the country where the students feel isolated.

 

They don't have not made friends at the university and they don't know how to have relationships. Many times, they've been on the cell phone and online. Their whole life is connected to the screen and they don't know, they don't have social skills.

 

They don't know how to have conversations. So, which is really sad. And sometimes grandparents can step in when parents maybe, you know, are for whatever reason not stepping in.

 

Sometimes, of course, one of the parents has died. Sometimes one of the parents has problems that limit what they can do. And grandparents can step in and be an adult figure who relates to this young adult and has an open door at their house.

 

You can always come to grandma's, you know, that kind of thing. So, it's a troubled, it's a troubled world for young adults today. And many times, they have a hard time getting a job and they move back home with their parents.

 

And, and because many of them can't afford an apartment. So, if they get a job, you know, and they can come back home and live with the parents, that's going to help them and make it possible for them to survive. And so, as parents, even though, you know, we all think of a time that we're going to have an empty nest, when they come back, see it as another opportunity just to have a positive impact on them.

 

But I would suggest that when they move back in that situation, you have conversations from the very beginning on how can we organize this now because you're an adult now. It's not like you're a child. But how can we organize it so that it's good for everybody and so that, you know, you feel good about it, we feel good about it.

 

Now, we're not going to charge you rent because we know that's, you know, but you are going to be back in the family now. So, let's think in terms of like, you know, what kind of chores could you do that would be helpful to us? And what can we do that would be helpful to you?

 

And let's talk about schedules and, you know, just talk about whatever you can think that you'd like to discuss so that each of you have an idea of how this is going to work rather than nobody talking about it, but the parents have ideas of what it ought to be like, but the adult child has ideas of what it ought to be like and they're different. And so, you end up in conflict with each other. Far better to have open conversations to start with .

 

And we can change it if we need to. We can talk about it again in two months and see if it's working or not working. But this is also teaching them a skill on how to relate to people because all of life they're going to be relating to people.

 

So, that can be a positive thing and not a negative thing. But, again, sometimes this becomes real contentious because the parents pictured one thing, the young adult pictures another thing, and it becomes an adversarial kind of situation.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:51 - 33:43) Well, and you even address that in your book. You share some guidelines for both parties. And so, I'll list these off.

 

Feel free to elaborate if there are any that you want to say more about. But you recommend clarifying those expectations and maintaining open communication, balancing freedom and responsibility, honoring your moral values I think you give, for instance, if you're a Christian and your adult child does not want to go to church or have their children go to church, how to navigate that, considering your own physical and mental health, setting time limits and goals, being pleasant and firm, and then you also talk about how to deal with anger. So, is there anything you'd want to elaborate on that?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (33:43 - 37:16) I think all of those things are important. You know, just remember now, as parents, it is your house and your moral values, you know, you want to have them respect that. For example, if you do not do alcohol at all, you need to say to them, now honey, you know that we don't drink alcohol if you think they do.

 

So, don't bring alcohol in the home. Okay? Can we just agree on that?

 

If you drink a beer, that's you, somewhere else, but don't do it here because we just don't like that. You know, that's fine. It's your house.

 

They're adults. So, and they'll respect that. They'll respect that.

 

So, I think, you know, and again, you just say, we're not going to make you go to church because you're an adult. That's your decision. If you would like to go to church, you know, there is a young adult group at our church that I think you might fit into and you might feel good about.

 

You know, you can try it out and see what you think. Or if you have a church that doesn't offer that, you can say, you know, I don't think our church has a young adult group, but there is a church in town that I understand has a really good young adult group. So, you might want to visit that church and kind of plug into that and see what you think.

 

You know, so we're not, again, demanding that they, you know, go to our church with us every Sunday, but we are trying to help them and give them some possibilities, you know, what they might do. So, all those things are really important. And I think setting some limits and goals also to say, how long do you think it might be before, I know you want to, I know you want to be independent.

 

Someday you may want to get married. I don't know, but how long do you think it might take before you would, you know, be able to, you know, find your own place or whatever? It doesn't matter to us, but I'm just thinking out loud with you so we can all kind of have some goals and things that we can have in the back of our minds.

 

We can change them later if we want to but talking to those kinds of things like that is helpful because both of you then have a framework in which to, you know, and maybe they're coming back. Maybe they drop out of college and they're back home because they don't have a job. They don't have anywhere to go.

 

And so to talk about, you know, maybe what could be done while you are here that might prepare you for a job, you know, and let them share the kind of job they might have an interest in and then see if there's a local technical school that's teaching, you know, people how to do that particular thing, you know, find out about it and say, well, you know, this course is available and we would be willing to pay for it if you'd be interested in doing that because if you have an interest, I understand it's a really good school and you're far more likely to get a job if you've had the training that they give over there, you know. So it may just be a year-long thing for, you know, training just one year, but helping them if they're struggling socially or relationally, mentally, then try to find whatever helps available in the community that they might plug into that could help them move toward being independent.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 37:38) I love that. Reaching maturity, independence, and then also you really did focus on the parents, the importance of them taking care of themselves and their marital relationship because that will change the dynamic if an adult child moves back in or if they move back in with their kids.

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (37:38 - 38:59) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's very different and I think as the parents, we don't want to spend time with each other silent, I mean, personally arguing with each other, you know, I just don't think we ought to do this now, you know.

 

Listen, listen, we're a team and this is our child. So, let's talk about what we're going to do. If we don't do it, what are we going to do?

 

We're going to let them live on the street. We're going to send them to the rescue mission. What are our options, you know, and what is the Christian thing to do?

 

So yeah, we likely will have different ideas. Husbands and wives will have different ideas of what we ought to do in those kinds of situations, but let's respect each other's ideas. Let's listen and try to see the world through their eyes and say, okay, I can see what you're saying.

 

I can see how that makes sense. And then, okay, how can we solve the problem? Because we want to be a team.

 

We want to keep our marriage growing. We don't want this to be a divisive thing in our marriage because we hope down the road they're going to be on their own, but we want our marriage to be good now and then, you know.

 

Laura Dugger: (39:00 - 39:12) So, to sum up this time together, do you have any additional words of encouragement or helpful do's and don'ts as we navigate this new part of parenting?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (39:14 - 42:07) I think one thing I would say to Christian parents is pray. The Bible says if you lack wisdom, ask God for wisdom. And all of us need wisdom.

 

And so, you just say, God, you know the situation, you know where we are, and we need your wisdom. You know we have our thoughts and our ideas, but what we really want to do is what is best in this situation for our child and for us. And we know that you can give us wisdom.

 

And the second thing I would say is read a book such as the one we're discussing. Because we're dealing with many common things in this. Read a book together about it.

 

And then, also talk to other parents maybe in your church, who have adult children who are moving home or whatever the situation is. And see how they're handling it. Because, you know, they may have found some things and discovered some things that would be very helpful to you.

 

Sometimes parents want to hide what's going on, especially if their child is making decisions and living a lifestyle that they don't want them to be living. They don't want to tell their friends about it. Because they think it puts them down as parents, that we failed, you know.

 

And I like to say to those parents, because many times here's what the parents say to me when their child is making a lifestyle decision that's not biblical. They'll say, Dr. Chapman, what did we do wrong? And I say, well, ask God if you did anything wrong.

 

God will tell you. And if you did, you can apologize. You can confess it to God.

 

You can apologize to your adult child. But let me remind you of this. God's first two children went wrong, and they had a perfect father.

 

So don't blame yourself for the decisions your adult children are making. Yes, none of us are perfect. And maybe you made some real bad decisions.

 

Then apologize to your adult child. But don't just assume that you are responsible for what they're doing. God makes his children free.

 

And as you know, a lot of God's children make poor decisions. God still loves them. And if they repent, God will forgive them.

 

But they suffer the consequences. Anytime we violate God's plans, we have to suffer. There are consequences.

 

So, yeah, those are just some of the things I would say to parents. But I do think that they'll find this book to be very helpful. It's very practical.

 

And I think they'll find it to be very helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:08 - 42:24) Your teaching is always full of wisdom, full of practicality. And this isn't the only topic that you've written about or spoken about. And so where would you like to direct us after this chat so that we can learn more from all of your teaching?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (42:25 - 42:59) I would say go to the website 5lovelanguages.com. The number 5 and lovelanguages.com. And there you will find resources, all my books and so forth. You can receive a weekly email from me if you like.

 

And you can take a quiz on the love languages and other things. Just a lot of help at that website. My publisher actually runs that website for me.

 

But it's very, very helpful. So, you know, that's where I would encourage them to go.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:00 - 43:19) Wonderful. We'll add that link in the show notes for today's episode. And Dr. Chapman, you've been a repeat guest. So, you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (43:22 - 44:41) I would say recognize the truth of what Jesus said as recorded in Matthew chapter 15, and verse 5. I think I'm right about that. Where he said, “I’m the vine. You're the branches. You stay connected to me. You bear fruit. Without me, you can do nothing.”

 

So just recognize your dependence on God. We may know a lot about a few things, but there's a whole bunch of stuff we don't know much about.

 

So just realize if you stay connected to God, have a daily quiet time with God in which you sit down and read a chapter in the Bible and ask God to speak to you. Or read a devotional book every morning with Scripture. You stay connected closely to God; you're going to bear fruit.

 

And tell God, without you, Lord, I can't do anything worthwhile. We won't. We can't do anything.‍ ‍

 

He gives us breath. We could be gone tomorrow. I can't do it without you.

 

I need your help. I need your wisdom. So, you stay connected closely to God.

 

You're going to not only survive, you're going to thrive.

 

Laura Dugger: (44:42 - 45:13) Well said. And it's great to witness someone who has been abiding in Christ and we're getting to enjoy that sweet fruit from the overflow of even your lifestyle and your guidance and your wisdom, Dr. Chapman. So, it's always such a joy to get to talk to you.

 

And I think my heart rate slows down every time we're having a conversation. You're so calm and peaceful. And I just really am grateful for you and appreciate you.

 

So, thank you for being my guest.

 

Dr. Gary Chapman: (45:14 - 45:25) Well, thank you. I always enjoy chatting with you. And thanks for what you're doing.

 

Because, you know, we take whatever we've got and try to help other people. And you're doing that. So, keep up the good work.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:25 - 48:42) Thank you. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?

 

It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners. But Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.

 

So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. But God loved us so much He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today, right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You.

 

Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer you are declaring Him for me so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called the Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.

 

The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ.

 

We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15 10 says, In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

 

The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved, and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Embracing a Robust Life: Charlotte Mason Approach with Nicole Williams, Special Patreon Release

Embracing a Robust Life: Charlotte Mason Approach with Nicole Williams, Special Patreon Release

 

Psalm 24:1 (NIV) The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you teach us what is meant by Charlotte's quote, "Education is the science of relations?"
2. What are the unexpected benefits of living a life out of doors and delighting in nature, almost regardless of weather?
3. What potential do you see in morning time, afternoons, and evenings?

 

Nicole Williams home educated her three children using Charlotte Mason’s principles and methods for 18 years. She also taught four of her adopted siblings from middle school through graduation. Watching the feast of life-giving ideas restore her sibling’s innate love of learning inspired her to dig deeper into Mason’s philosophy of education and then to share her experiences with others. She does that now by co-hosting the podcast A Delectable Education, writing for SabbathMoodHomeschool.com, and teaching workshops. She is also the author of Living Science Study Guides, where she helps families and schools implement Charlotte Mason’s natural way of teaching science. Nicole enjoys working in her garden, collecting living books, and hiking.

 

A Delectable Education Podcast

Sabbath Mood Website

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:08)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com forward slash East Peoria.

 

If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.

 

This is part two of our Charlotte Mason-inspired miniseries. Emily Kaiser was the first guest to lay the foundation, and Nicole Williams is going to follow up today with more practical ideas for how we can implement this method into our own family lives, regardless of our schooling option. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Nicole.

 

Nicole Williams: (1:55 - 1:57) Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:57 - 2:04) Well, can you just start us off by sharing a little bit more about your own faith and educational background?

 

Nicole Williams: (2:06 - 5:28) Yes, I was not raised in a Christian home actually. And neither was my husband. In fact, we had the funniest conversation recently where we were talking about him going to church when he was a kid.

 

And I said, well, that was really nice of your parents to see value in that. He said, no, they were just trying to get us out of the house and make us into better kids. But they didn't go with them.

So, neither one of us were Christians. And then both of us became believers before we got married. And it has been so fun to watch our children grow up as believers or in a believing home, that that was the atmosphere and how that differed from him and I and our trust in the Lord.

 

We, you know, both of us really knew he was there, but had no knowledge of him. And so that was really fun to see the difference there. We started homeschooling.

 

Really, I would say it was really based on fear. We wanted to protect our kids. And that was pretty much the underlying motivation.

 

And then I had fear of doing it. Can I possibly do this? And when my oldest child, who's four years older than the next one, I have three, when he was just about to start kindergarten, I went by myself and toured a local private school.

 

And my husband was so funny. He's like, honey, I know you can do this. Give it a try.

 

And I just am so grateful that I have his support that I always have. I know that that is not the story for a lot of people, that their husbands don't necessarily see the value and what they're trying to do. And so, I've always really appreciated that.

 

But I went to school and we moved and we moved and I transferred college and transferred college. And then I was pregnant and I went in and said, “What am I close to? How can I just finish this?

 

And I ended up with a math and science degree, which wasn't really what I was going for. I was really interested in biology. But it's funny how that led to this, that that wasn't really where I was headed.

 

But then I ended up in the science field. But I didn't learn about Charlotte Mason until my oldest was in third grade. Well, actually, he was just about to start the third grade.

 

And the box curriculum that I was using came in the mail. And I learned about Charlotte Mason and just all of a sudden that didn't suit anymore. It just fell flat.

 

This big idea that I was learning about. But at the same time, my mom and dad had had by then adopted nine children. They had two biological children.

 

And they asked me to homeschool their last three who were in fifth, sixth and seventh grade. So, I told her, well, I'm going to do this new thing. I don't understand what it is.

 

So, if you're okay with that, then I'll do it. And I think it actually turned out to be a huge blessing to me. And then my two little girls started school a couple years later.

 

And so, they were homeschooled using Charlotte Mason's methods all the way through school. And my youngest is going to graduate in May.

 

Laura Dugger: (5:29 - 6:02) Oh, my goodness. That's incredible. You are on the other side; you're going to have so much value to add to each of us who are in the thick of it.

 

Regardless of our choice of how to school. And in case anyone has missed the recent Savvy Sauce episode with your podcast co-host Emily Kaiser, that's where we laid the foundation for this philosophy. But now to build on that foundation, will you teach us what is meant by Charlotte's quote, education is the science of relations?

 

Nicole Williams: (6:03 - 10:34) Absolutely. When we give a child, Charlotte Mason called it the broad beast. It's just all these subjects that sometimes in the regular world we think of as extracurricular.

 

So, she didn't just have history. She wanted them to be learning the history of their own country, the history of their neighboring country, and ancient history all at the same time. They started the ancient history in fifth grade, but they continued this on all the way through.

 

In science, they were always learning biology, chemistry, physics, and earth science all the way through school, all the way through high school. And how many of us really got that? We usually had to take biology, maybe chemistry, and historic.

 

That was maxing out our requirements. She wanted them to have this all the way through (Art, art history, music, music history, singing, and folk songs).

 

There's just all of this stuff. She suggested that when we're giving them this broad beast, we're allowing them to have natural relations with a vast number of things and thought. She said that thought breeds thought.

 

Children familiar with great thoughts take as naturally to thinking for themselves as the well-nourished body takes to growing. We must bear in mind that growth, intellectual, moral, spiritual, is the sole end of education. And just stopping right there with an aside that how many people, much less children, do we know who can think about the major issues that we're faced with, the major issues in the church, in our country?

 

It is something that I feel like this whole question and answer, can you pass the test? Can you tell me what I want you to tell me? That is not serving our children and our culture and our country very well.

 

So, what we don't realize is how interconnected all of the pieces of this kind of a curriculum that she wants us to have this broad feast are. Then Mrs. Wicks, she's somebody who often wrote in kind of a magazine of sorts that went out to the parents of Charlotte Mason's curriculum users. And she said, when we remember that knowledge is truth, we know at once that no part of truth can be omitted without wrecking the whole.

 

Scripture, history, geography, botany and all the others are actually different facets of the same thing. And the longer we work from these wonderful programs, she means like the assigned to work that Charlotte Mason gave, the more we realize how well balanced they are, how satisfying to the hungry mind, how the subject is dovetail, how difficult it is to teach history only in history time, like the time of day, the lesson, how it will flow over into geography, literature or even into such unexpected channels as arithmetic or botany. So, the idea of the science of relations is actually the culmination of several things. There is this wealth of ideas presented to the child for them to think about.

 

And then they do their own work of their education, meaning that when we ask them to narrate back about a subject, they're telling us what they got out of it. But they're also kind of telling us how that relates to something else they know. So, these things are tying together.

 

So that is explained through something Charlotte Mason said she was telling of the small English boy of nine who lived in Japan. And he remarked to his mom, Isn't it fun, mother? All of these things, everything seems to fit into something else.

 

But Charlotte Mason pointed out the boy had not found out the whole secret. Everything fitted into something within himself. And so, the science of relations is talking about how everything fits into each other.

 

But we aren't doing it for the student. We're not creating unit studies where we say, oh, this is related to this and it's related to that. So, I'm going to pull those all together for the student.

 

We are letting those connections happen within themselves. And that helps memory. It helps understanding. It creates a full life.

 

It creates a person who knows about a lot of things and can relate to a lot of things and talk to a lot of people about whatever that person is interested in.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:35 - 11:02) And as you're describing this, this sounds so appealing. And like you said, it's a very robust philosophy. And yet I've heard someone say that Charlotte Mason's load was light.

 

Her burden was light. So, when you explain teaching your children all of these parts in homeschooling, were the lessons short enough that this did not feel overwhelming?

 

Nicole Williams: (11:03 - 13:16) It really is. And what we find is any time I'm doing a subject and it's too hard for the child, it's too hard for me to get through in the lesson time that she specified, it's too hard for us to understand what we're doing. Usually what I find is that we're doing it wrong.

 

She gave such bite sized pieces. Like, for instance, chemistry. When I am working out the science study guides that I write, I try to assign the same amount of work that she assigned.

 

And I'm using different books because I'm trying to use books that are more up to date with the information provided. But I still want them to have the same quality of a living book. But I will even count the words on a page and figure out, OK, if she is assigning six pages a day, there's this many words on a page.

 

How does that equate to what I'm assigning? What I often find is that a lesson that will be 30 or 40 minutes long, there will be 10 or 15 minutes worth of reading. And the other 15 minutes is allowing time for narrating or discussing the topic.

 

So sometimes we try to cram so much into our day or into our lesson times that she actually really felt like we should keep it small. These bite size amounts every day or every week. And then our mind is processing that information and working with it.

Some people have done comparisons of what their kids get out of something if they read through a book fast or if they read through it slow. And so much more is gained from reading through it slow, having a time of narration, a time of discussion or using that to write an essay, say, or something like that. So, yeah, it seems like a burden because there's so many things.

 

But if we get in the habit of doing what she specified, it actually is light. And that switching subjects lightens it, too, because maybe you're doing a math lesson and it's hard and we're challenging ourselves and we're trying to figure out this puzzle. And then the next thing we do is sing a folk song.

 

You know, it just changes things up and makes us ready for maybe a history lesson after that.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:17 - 13:29) That's so helpful. And then getting really nitty gritty. Approximately how long would this be for an elementary age student, a junior high student and high schooler?

 

Nicole Williams: (13:29 - 15:24) Yeah. So, we always hear of Charlotte Mason, her short lessons people talk about. And in form one, which is the grades one through three in those first three years, they had lessons that were between 10 and 20 minutes.

 

Even their math lesson was only 20 minutes. And the whole point was she was trying to teach them to focus with all their might during that time. So, if we're going to read about history or a history tale is what they would have read at that time.

 

She wanted them to focus and listen and be able to narrate at the end of that. And if any of us have tried that, it's hard work. So, she was starting with these small amounts.

 

Then by the time they're in form two. So that's fourth, fifth and sixth grade. So upper elementary. They had longer lessons that went up to 30 minutes. So, the math lesson was 30 minutes at that time. Some of their history lessons were.

 

And then by the time they're in form three, which is middle school, seventh and eighth and up through high school, they had lessons that were more typically 30 to 40 minutes. So that doesn't seem like a short lesson to us. But the thing that we have to keep in mind is that she was building up their ability to attend closely through those years.

 

So, when they got up into a 40-minute science lesson in high school, they were supposed to be able to attend and pay close attention during that whole 40-minute lesson. And statistically, we know that that's not something that the adults of our day can do. Numbers have gone from a 30-minute attention span to 20-minutes here just in the last decade or so.

 

Thanks to social media and the switching that we're doing with our brain. So, what she was requiring of them actually appears to be really long lessons in high school. But we always talk about her short lessons.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:25 - 15:32) And then in high school, let's say how many of those lessons would you do on average per day?

 

Nicole Williams: (15:33 - 17:32) I would say six or eight lessons a day, but some of them are still short. Like for instance, they have a recitation lesson. By the time they're in high school, they're doing that on their own outside of school time.

 

But in middle school, they still have a 10-minute recitation lesson. They may have a 10-minute time of reading. So not all of the lessons are going to take 40 minutes.

 

And I also want to point out that in high school right now, many of the schools are changing to block systems. Where they are providing like an hour and 45 minutes to two hours for a single subject. So, say math.

 

First of all, who can pay attention to a subject that is often challenging for two hours like that? But then on top of that, they may do it in the fall semester, then not have math. Because the way they do it, these blocks, they would have like four classes a semester.

 

So maybe they would not have math at all in the spring. And then maybe the next year they're a sophomore and they don't have math in the fall, but they do in the spring. So, they've gone a full year with no math of any kind.

 

And now again, they have two-hour lessons. And then you compare that to what we can do in a homeschooling scenario. And this is what Charlotte Mason wanted us to do was every day, 30 minutes, every day, 30 minutes.

 

All the way through high school, every day of the week. And she actually had them doing algebra two days a week, geometry two days a week. And then continuing arithmetic, even maybe up into statistics, because some of these things they get done.

 

They go on to trigonometry or something in this session. But they are always getting that mental work every single day. Comparing those two things, you can see why this short lessons is valuable to just always be touching on a subject and challenging yourself in that way.

 

Laura Dugger: (17:32 - 17:59) There's another Charlotte Mason quote that I want to read where she says, “My object is to show that the chief function of the child, his business in the world during the first six or seven years of his life, is to find out all he can about whatever comes under his notice by means of his five senses. Nicole, how can we intentionally incorporate this idea?”

 

Nicole Williams: (18:00 - 22:09) So what she's talking about here is nature study, really. And we often think of nature study as just an extracurricular subject or, you know, something light. I actually my first introduction to Charlotte Mason, it was the nature study that drew me in.

 

But I know for a lot of people, it's the opposite. You know, they like, why do we have to do this nature study stuff? But she's also particularly talking about a very young child in this case.

 

So, what she tells us later in this quote is that the intellectual education of the young child should lie in the free exercise of perceptive power, because the first stages of mental effort are marked by the extreme activity of this power. So perceptive power, picking up details, paying attention long enough to pick up details. And furthermore, this little quote, it is about two sentences after the header.

 

Habit is ten natures, which is kind of a funny title. But habit is one of the three educational instruments that Charlotte Mason said that we were allowed as teachers, as parents were teaching our kids. She said we were only allowed three instruments of education.

 

That is the atmosphere of environment, the discipline of habit and the presentation of living ideas. So that's kind of a big thing. But what I want to point out is this idea of habits.

 

What we're doing when we are helping them in those first years to find out whatever comes under his notice is they're learning the habit of being attentive. And this is one of the habits of mind. She talks about habits of like our body and our mind, our intellectual habits, just habits like, you know, covering your cough or pushing in your chair.

 

But she talks about habits of mind when she talks about them. So, they're learning the habit of being attentive for more than a fraction of a second. She gives them a scenario where a child kind of runs by a daisy and the mom calls him back and says, “Oh, look closer. You know, this daisy closes its eye at night. So, it's like a day's eye because during the day it's open and at night it closes up.”

 

And for that moment, the mom is just drawing the child back to this little object lesson and helping them to look at it for just a couple more seconds than they were going to look at it on their own.

 

So, she's building that habit of attention and using their senses. They're also learning the habit of thinking when they're spending time in nature about what they've observed. You know, they're asking themselves, why does the daisy close at night?

 

And where's the bee going next? And how did the tree produce these flowers in spring? How does it know when it's time for the tree buds to open or the daffodils to bloom?

 

And so, they're learning the habit of thinking and they're learning the habit of imagining, which is another one of the habits of mind. Where does the tracks of this fox come from? Was it skulking around here last night?

 

What was he looking for and where was he going and learning to imagine? And they're learning the habit of remembering. They may see a bee and they saw a bee yesterday, but they remember that yesterday's bee had a black face and this one has a yellow face.

 

So, it must be a different one. And they're often narrating; we're asking them to tell us what they saw. And so, they're learning the habits of accuracy and truthfulness.

 

No, there wasn't a thousand bees, but there was a lot. How many? Maybe, maybe a hundred, you know, so they're learning to be accurate.

 

So, these habits that we're cultivating through nature study and object lessons in these very young age allow our children to make the most of living ideas when they're presented through their education. So, you know, we think it's nothing, but we're helping them when they start their reading lesson, when they start their math lesson. All of these habits of mind that we've been training through nature study are going to be able to be utilized in the child when they get to doing lessons like that.

 

Laura Dugger: (22:10 - 22:24) Well, that leads me to wonder, Nicole, from your perspective, what are the unexpected benefits of living a life out of doors and delighting in nature, almost regardless of weather?

 

Nicole Williams: (22:24 - 27:31) OK, I've just started reading the book. There's no such thing as bad weather. And she even chuckles in there.

 

She's from Sweden and she says that there is a poll done in Sweden where they ask people because they are like they have outdoor kindergarten. Like every day is outdoor the whole-time kindergarten in Sweden, you know. And she said all they could say is it's good for you.

 

And it truly is good for us. It's good for us mentally and it's good for us physically. On the mental note, Charlotte Mason talked about how we can recall something that we've seen, and it gives us a level of peace when we're kind of in our busy lives.

 

So, she had the children do something called picture painting, which was actually just a mental exercise with maybe mom and child would be standing at the edge of a pond and they would make a mental picture of that pond. And the mom could help by pointing out things like the reflection of trees on the lake or something like that to help them get a more full picture. But the idea was these pictures of natural places they had experienced and been to would be with them always.

 

And they could kind of reflect on them anytime they needed a peaceful moment. There's also studies that show that if students spend time in nature before they take a big test, they do better on the test. And interestingly, those tests were side by side with people who spent time in nature or people who spent time like walking down a busy street.

 

And the mental piece that came from walking solely in nature versus walking on a busy street where your mind is keeping track of the cars and the people and things like that, that's not restful. And the restfulness of walking in nature allowed kind of their brain to regroup and they did better on a test after that. That was a test that was mentioned in Last Child in the Woods, which is an excellent book.

 

And if you think you know all the reasons why nature is valuable and important, that book has so much more to say than you ever thought. Also, one of the things that happens is the child's sense of beauty grows. I do a whole hour-long talk on the importance of this and how we miss it.

 

My husband and I went away for just three nights here recently. And each morning he would go out and fish and he would come back. And the last day he said, the daffodils have bloomed since we've been here. And I said, “No, are you talking about it like the big curve in the road?” He said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Those were bloomed when we got here.”

 

And he just he was really focused on the river and the fish, and he'd missed it every day. And we do this when I do my talk. I actually show this little video or something really large and interesting shows up in the screen.

 

And every single time, 50 percent of the people don't see it. And when we think about the importance of seeing beauty around us, it's God's world. It's the beauty that he has given us to kind of encourage us and build us up and remind us of what purity looks like.

 

And if we don't see it at all, because we're just really honed in on our life and our schedule and the next thing we've got to get to, that's just a huge loss. So, on that note, it could lead to a greater reverence and a fuller appreciation of God. There's so much that God reveals to us through nature and we have to be able to see it in order to appreciate that.

 

And then, like I talked about before, it's the natural way people, young children, older people to learn. So, if they spend time in nature and they're able to, say, discern that black faced bee from the yellow faced bee. Then when we're asking them to look at the letter B versus D and there is just such a small difference between the two, they are more attentive and discerning to little details.

 

And then finally, my favorite one is that it lays the foundation for science. I would even say it really is science. People want to skip this and just go to the book, Work of Science.

 

But also, in Lash Out of the Woods, Richard quotes a man who is Stanford University School of Medicine professor. And he points out that it's alarming to teach these doctors how the heart works as a pump because they've never done anything that shows the physics of this. They've never, I think he says, like worked a garden hose or worked on a car, siphoned something.

 

All of these direct experiences in the backyard, they've missed those. And so, they're being trained them by rote memory, but they have no experience with the physics of the way the world works. So, it really is science also.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:32 - 27:44) That's incredible. And I'm hearing such a mystery involved as well. We don't know all that God is up to being outdoors and what he created, but there's so much learning taking place.

 

Nicole Williams: (27:44 - 27:45) Absolutely.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:47 - 33:22) And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Now, back to the show.

 

Well, Nicole, you mentioned that your specialty is science, and when I think of your website, it has the name Sabbath in the title. So how do you weave these two together in your life?

 

Nicole Williams: (33:23 - 37:23) Yeah. So, I started a blog immediately after hearing a Wendell Berry poem, and that's how I named my blog. So, it was named before I started doing science curriculum.

 

But if you don't mind, I'd love to read the poem to you. It's beautiful. It's short.

 

Yeah, please do.

 

He says, “Whatever is foreseen in joy must be lived out from day to day. Vision is held open in the dark by our ten thousand days of work. The hand must ache, the face must sweat, and yet no leaf or grain is filled by work of ours. The field is tilled and left to grace. That we may reap great work is done while we're asleep.”

 

When we work well, a Sabbath mood rests on our day and finds it good. And that just had such a powerful impact on me because I realized as homeschool families, and Charlotte Mason made this very, very clear, we are presenting all of the feasts to our children, but we don't know what they're going to be interested in, what they're going to have an aptitude for, learning disabilities or challenges they may have, or places where they will excel and go above and beyond in a subject. We don't know those things.

 

We are working in cooperation with the Holy Spirit by sitting down every day and doing the lessons that are part of our schedule for that day. And what becomes of that within our child is up to the Lord. And that is hard for us because we have a lot to prove, or we think we do, to our neighbors, to our in-laws, to the local school, if we are having to school under some kind of an umbrella system in our state.

 

If we have children who have any kind of delays or special needs, we feel like we have even more to prove. And what Charlotte Mason wanted us to do was just present this information and let it take root in the child the way it would, because she said that they had a natural desire to learn. When they don't, it's because we've actually done something to destroy it.

 

They have a natural desire and ability to learn the types of things that we're putting before them. So, there's a lot of faith that goes into what we're doing. And frankly, there's a lot of faith that goes into a teacher in a classroom.

 

It's not any different. It's just that we will have a whole lot more peace in our life if we acknowledge that that's how it is, that we're not in charge here, that God is. So that is how my blog got its name.

 

And then science fell into that. And I feel like it's the same. It really just everything falls under that category for me, that our children are due the material that we're offering them.

 

And it's not within our right to hold back pieces and parts of it because maybe it's hard for us. For instance, physics. A lot of parents did not take physics in school because it was so math based in school.

 

But I was just talking to you about how physics is their love that God gave us. They are in nature everywhere we see. So, to kind of put blinders on and pretend like it's not there, that's not right.

 

It's a subject that's due to our child, whether they can handle the math or not. And so, through my curriculum, I actually have the math as optional. And I say optional, but it's not optional to the students.

 

It's optional because if a student can't do the math, they still have the ability to do the course and learn about the laws that God's given us. So, I don't know if that answers your question or not.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:23 - 37:44) I love how you explain things. And I think it's helpful that we've covered an overview of your chosen method of homeschooling. But I'd also like to know some more specific rhythms.

 

And so, what potential do you see in morning time, afternoons, and evenings?

 

Nicole Williams: (37:46 - 44:32) Yeah, I feel even more strongly about this stuff now that I'm not homeschooling because I really began to follow Charlotte Mason's ideas for her schedule. And it wasn't just the school schedule. She had kind of a whole day schedule for the kids.

 

She wanted them to start lessons at around nine, eight or nine. And, of course, these things are flexible. I don't want to make it sound like it's a legalistic thing, but she wanted them to start school around nine.

 

And then depending on their age, school stopped after two and a half to four hours. Two and a half for the youngest children, four hours for the oldest. And she had different amounts established for the different ages.

 

And the reason that it was kind of short like that is because she felt like twofold. One, their attention was going to be greater on their subjects if we kept their school day shorter. And she packs a lot in there.

 

So, there is this feeling of like the big deep breath after school is over because we've worked hard during that time, especially if you have kids, multiple kids in different age ranges. But then because after school she wanted them to have time for free play and just literally running mostly outside games, climbing trees, collecting wildflowers, doing things like that. And we know whether we want to acknowledge it or not, we know how important this free time is to kids.

 

For one thing, when they are playing outside, how many times have we seen our kids playing a game that is related to what we've been reading in history or tapping into whatever their science was? You know, maybe they're studying insects and now they're out there collecting them. So, there is this thing that happens in their brain.

 

It's like when we go to sleep after reading a book and mulling over a big question and then we wake up in the morning and we have our answer. Our brains do work in the background when we are not busy trying to shove things in. But this doesn't happen when we're playing video games or watching TV.

 

Our brains really check out at that. So, we have to have a play time for the kids or free time. And then she called them back just before what she called tea time.

 

And it really is like our dinner time an hour before then. And everybody did what she called occupations. And this was handicrafts.

 

And maybe your child plays the piano and they need to practice every day making entries in their book of centuries, which is kind of a history timeline kind of book, their nature notebook, things like that. So, there is this block of time before dinner. And by the way, some chores and things like that and then dinner.

 

And so that kind of leaves the before school in the morning and the after dinner to like leisure time, chore time, maybe getting meals cooked and things like that. Well, I started following her schedule pretty closely during my time homeschooling. I didn't really pick up on her schedule until kind of about halfway through my homeschooling journey.

 

But little by little, I understood more what she was saying to do and really implemented it. Well, then when I was done homeschooling, I still had one, but she was very independent. My life seems to kind of go off the rails.

 

I was struggling. I just could not get anything done. It felt like I was doing so much.

 

And I don't know. I just I can't even really quite explain it. But I was super overwhelmed with the work that I do.

 

I wasn't getting dinner made. And at some point I realized that all of that really somewhat rigid schedule that we had fallen into over the years was such a piece to my life. I am not a person who likes a schedule.

 

I actually just really want to be left alone. Whatever the day brings that I want to do, I want to do it. I am not a person who keeps a list of what they're going to do every day of the week and stuff like that.

 

It's just not a comfortable place to me. But what I found when all of that was taken away is that the comfort and the peace that came with those routines was gone. And so, I look back and I just have to say that is that is the potential in those things and having a time for all of the things.

 

So, I eventually had one day a week that I would accept, you know, doctor's appointments when I started homeschooling. If they wanted me to go to the dentist at, you know, 10 in the morning because I'm flexible, I'm a homeschooler. I would go do that and totally wreck our whole school day.

 

And then there came a time where I said, no, we only do appointments on Wednesday afternoons. And maybe I had a backup thing if it happened. That was the doctor's day off or something like that.

 

But if I had to wait five weeks for an appointment, that's what I did. Unless it was an emergency, of course. But I really landed on a pretty rigid outline.

 

Now, we have things happen. We moved in the middle of the school year like five times. We remodeled the house.

 

I lost my mom. I cared for my grandma at the end of her life. Things happen.

 

So, I'm not suggesting that this is like a very rigid thing, but we have to have something to aim at. And when we do and we know nine o'clock, I'm going to have my mom butt in my chair. And I expect everybody else to be there, too, because this is my job.

 

And there are other people who can educate my kids, and the bell will ring and it starts on time. So, if I'm going to take on this role in my life, I need to be accountable to my children, to my husband, to myself to make this a priority. And when I started having a little bit more of that attitude.

 

There came peace. It's just like our life under the law of the board. The rules he gives us allows us to have peace in our life.

 

And when we establish some of those for ourselves, it can bring peace, too. So, there's definitely potential in having kind of blocks of your day. This is what we do now.

This is what we do this day of the week. That kind of thing. And everybody gets on board with it, too.

 

We take a nature walk on Friday. Everybody knows it. Everybody looks forward to it. And everybody holds me accountable to it. That kind of thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (44:33 - 44:49) That is so helpful to hear. And really, even during those especially trying seasons, it seemed like this self-disciplined intentionality with which you lived life, that that really brought in freedom kind of unexpectedly.

 

Nicole Williams: (44:50 - 45:25) It really did. In fact, towards the end of homeschooling, I found that my business was growing, and I felt like I had so much to do there. But when I sat down to do lessons with my kids, there was never more scheduled for that day's series of lessons than we could do during that time.

 

So, there was never this feeling of being behind or being rushed or trial. It was just like; this is what we're going to do today. And it gave great peace.

 

It really did. It took a long time for me to get to that place. I hope other people can get there faster than me.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:26 - 45:42) But even to hear about your journey, if you said the longest school days, I'm assuming even as they got older, it was about four hours to get everything done. So then by one o'clock in the afternoon, is that when you would do your work?

 

Nicole Williams: (45:42 - 47:49) It is. And so, at that point, they were older. What I found is that when we do our lessons with our kids in that kind of intense way, like we've got four hours, we're doing them.

 

And my kids, of course, at that age, they were both the last two were in high school. You know, one might be on one couch, one on the other. I'm in the chair and I do something with one of them and then maybe the other.

 

Then we're both doing. So, they're not like going off. They were there. We were all. And maybe I had a period of time to myself that I could use for planning, you know, a half hour.

 

They're both reading their history. I'm going to plan for, you know, tomorrow's lesson or something like that. So, there was some let up there. It is different when you have like two children who are learning to read.

 

You know, there is a lot more challenge than that. I used to say when they were younger that I felt like an air traffic controller and the intensity of that time of me getting from this child's lesson to that child's lesson. Now I've got to hear a narration.

 

We really had to be very orderly about it, or it wasn't going to get done. But when it was done, the kids wanted to go off and play. They weren't going to hang on me because they'd had a lot of really good quality time with me.

 

So, they were ready to go play. And that gave me like, OK, redirect, you know, have a break. I would do some work.

 

Often I made lunch and cooked dinner at the same time after school lesson. And then that was done and put aside. And then later I did have a child who got into ballet and spent like four hours some nights in ballet.

 

And then that's when I kind of did my work. You will never, ever hear me recommend to a homeschooling mom to take on work. It is hugely challenging to homeschool your kids, take care of your home and do any kind of outside work.

 

You really, it's hard just to do the basics. It's really hard when you have to throw some number of hours every day of work in there, too.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 48:02) And yet it sounds like God did call you to this work and you've participated well and you've ordered your life in this way. He's provided the grace to make this all happen.

 

Nicole Williams: (48:03 - 49:30) He has. I'd say one of the big things that I have taken away from all this is when you have times in your day where, you know, this is when I do school. This is when I cook dinner. This is when I do my morning chores. I will be home these days of the week. I won't go out of the house.

 

When you order your life in that way and you get called to do something like take care of my elderly grandma, you have room in your life to do that kind of thing. My grandma only lived a short distance from me. It took me like five minutes to get to her house.

 

But I would go every night, and I would take her dinner, and I'd sit with her for another hour or so and then I would put her to bed at night. Well, there were times in my life where I ran myself so hard that I could have never done that for her. So sometimes when we feel like we have a little extra time, we may take up knitting or, you know, read a book.

 

Do something that is edifying and building you up because you don't know what the Lord is going to call you to do in your life. And when we pack out every minute of every day, we're not really allowing him to call us into helping another person or do something that he's calling us to do. So that's my little soapbox.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:30 - 49:56) Yes, that is rightfully convicting. I think of a local woman here, Marsha Cook, who said margin makes me kinder. And so, I think that's worth pursuing.

 

But I am grateful that you work because you do a lot of good work and you have so much available. Can you just share a little bit more about your work and where we can go after this chat to learn more from you?

 

Nicole Williams: (49:57 - 53:15) Sure. My website is Sabbath Mood Homeschool, again, named after Brindleberry's poem. And there you will find just a lot of blog posts over many, many years.

 

You also find my living science curriculum there that is based entirely on how Charlotte Mason did it. So, I take no pride in my idea because it isn't my idea. I am literally just trying to basically do lesson planning for the parent.

 

You know, what experiment goes with this reading this week? What other resource like a current event or maybe a video would help to support this information? Just trying to take that work that the parent would need to do to prepare for that lesson and do it for them so that I have that there.

 

And in the last couple of years, I started making nature videos, too, to help people along with nature study. Charlotte Mason felt that it was best for the parent to learn about nature so that they could then help their kids along. So, I have videos about the different categories of flowers and birds and trees through the seasons and what to watch for.

 

And there's just a lot of things that like, you know, lots of people don't know that the buds on bushes and trees that form the flowers and the leaf buds are often formed in the fall. And they're there all winter long and we can look for them. So, things like that.

 

So, I have that there. And then I also have a newsletter that you can sign up for there. That is kind of random, both in how often it comes out and in what I include.

 

But I include things like, you know, the books I've read in a year and if there's a special coming up or sometimes just encouragement to something that maybe I'm thinking about at the time regarding how we spend our time or something like that. And then I'm also the co-host of a delectable education. And you've interviewed Emily and I think Liz comes next.

 

Right. Is that how it goes? That's correct.

 

All right. And the three of us together have the podcast of delectable education. And we're just finishing up our ninth season right now.

 

So, we have episodes on every subject of a Charlotte Mason education. Like, how do we do history? What in the world is Sulfa?

 

And what do we do? But then we also just have a lot of episodes just, you know, encouraging the homeschool family how to do this, what to do with afternoon times, things like that. And we put on a virtual conference every year called ADE at home.

 

And that is in February. And it was kind of born out of the delays of 2020, you know, but no conferences could happen. But we found that it has been a beautiful way to utilize students doing their lessons.

 

And so, when people watch, they're watching a family do a lesson before them, which we can never do at an in-person conference. So that has been incredible. We've gotten really good feedback on that.

 

So, we've continued doing it. That's about it. That's everything I think.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:16 - 53:40) So much on your plate, but we will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode in case anyone wants to follow up and study further. And Nicole, you may know that we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with discernment or practical knowledge. And we would love to hear your practical life tips.

 

So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Nicole Williams: (53:42 - 54:45) Well, I would just have to say in a sentence is making a schedule and sticking to it. As much as I say that you have you have to picture me kicking and screaming on the floor like a two-year-old because I don't like to do it. But flexibility is fun, but it's not actually going to get the important things done in our life.

 

And we are responsible people who have integrity. And we know there are things that we must get done. And that's the only way that I know how to do it.

 

But I sometimes think of life creeping in. I have this mental picture of being in the front of a concert and people pushing and pushing. And if you go down, you're going to get trampled and maybe killed.

 

And I feel like that is how life is. It is always trying to creep in and push in on us. And we have to guard our life, our kids' school schedule, our kids' play time.

 

We have to guard that seriously because it's very, very important. So that's it. Make a schedule and stick to it.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:45 - 54:59) That is so good. And, Nicole, you just have such a warm and welcoming personality and a very calming presence. I really enjoyed this opportunity to get to interview you.

 

So, thank you for being my guest.

 

Nicole Williams: (55:00 - 55:18) Thank you so much. I wish the best of luck to all of your listeners. And I know this is a hard thing we've taken on.

 

It is not easy. But it is such a value. There's going to be fruits in their life throughout their whole life because of the time that you're devoting to them now.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:20 - 59:04) Thank you for that encouragement.

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

From Gangster to Child of God with Brian Butler (Episode 290)

From Gangster to Child of God with Brian Butler (Episode 290)

 

Disclaimer: This episode contains thematic material. Listener discretion advised.

 

2 Corinthians 1:4 NLT “He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Brian Butler married his wife Pam in 2011. They have four children and eight grandchildren. Brian received his Bachelor of Science degree from Indiana State University in 2009. Arriving in Peoria, Illinois in 2009 Brian began his career working with the impoverished in his community as a Safety Net Monitor at The Salvation Army. He was afforded the opportunity to work with individuals in the community for four years providing case management assisting people to learn the value of work through work therapy and securing income and eventually housing. Brian was called to Peoria Rescue Ministries in 2014 and began his career there as the Assistant Director of the Rescue Mission. In 2018 Brian became the Program Director and in 2021 became the Director of Residential Ministries. In 2024 Peoria Rescue Ministries became Pathway Ministries. Coming from a former lifestyle of drug and alcohol addiction Brian has been able to transform programs at Pathway Ministries that address the needs of the impoverished community he serves to create pathways out of poverty through Jesus with his neighbors in need. Pathway Ministries provides emergency shelter, residential programs, and community services with a focus on counseling, education, and work to help the men and women they serve make transformative changes in their lives. Pathway Ministries is a social enterprise organization and has a partnership with Caterpillar – they reclaim discarded wood and turn it into pallets, mulch for industrial and commercial use, and home décor. Their residents are employed in these businesses while participating in their program. 

 

Pathway Ministries Website

 

Thank you to our sponsor for today’s episode: Midwest Food Bank

 

Topics We Cover:

1. Growing up in an abusive home
2. Lifestyle choices leading to prison
3. God’s miraculous redemption and restoration

 

Related Savvy Sauce Episode:

143 Prodigal Story: Sexuality, Drugs, and Scripture with Dr. Christopher Yuan

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:08)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 3:30) Hey friends! Thank you so much for joining us today. If you're watching this, you may notice that there's a unique screen that's going to pop up periodically.

 

So, here's the backstory. We delight in getting to do this work, and we do believe it's what God has called our team to do. And yet, we have a very present and active enemy.

 

And Satan has tried to thwart the progress of these podcast episodes in so many ways.  It's almost uncanny what will happen before a podcast recording. There's almost always something, yet it's different every time.

 

So, the way it showed up with this episode, first of all, when Brian and I tried to connect, somebody was working in our yard, and they accidentally cut our line for internet.  And so, we had to cancel that and reschedule. And then, when we got the episode rescheduled, Brian and I were chatting, and we haven't recorded.

 

We were just talking for a little while before the official interview began, and everything was great. And then, as soon as I said, “Welcome to The Savvy Sauce.” The screen went a little wavy, and something happened, and my audio quality was completely distorted. So, sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I wanted you to know how much work has gone into this episode.

 

So, if you ever have somebody that you want to thank, it should be Natalie, our editor, who had to go back and replace everything that I said to cover up the very convoluted form that was originally recorded. So, I hope it doesn't interrupt this episode or make it difficult for you to listen to, because Brian's story is so powerful, and I believe God has you here listening to this right now for a reason. So, please continue.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living.  I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this non-profit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

 

Brian Butler is my outstanding guest for today, and he's going to take us on a very real journey with him from an extremely abusive childhood to a life of addictions and eventually to redemption and restoration all because of Jesus Christ. Brian's humility is so Christ-like, and I think that you're going to leave this conversation as a changed person. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Brian.

 

Brian Butler: (3:31 - 3:33) Thank you so much for having me here. I appreciate it.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:34 - 3:42) Well, I would just love to start backwards. Where did you grow up, and what was childhood like for you?

 

Brian Butler: (3:43 - 9:46) I grew up all over the place, really. I'd spent several years in Danville as a child, Hartsburg, Illinois, eventually settled down in southern Illinois in a little town called Bridgeport. My dad was a professor at a local college, and he ended up being a high school teacher.

 

Where I went to school, my mom and dad were continually in chaos with their marriage.  My dad had some severe mental health issues. He was a pretty rough guy to be around. 

 

He was a chronic alcoholic. He was abusive, and I'll just say for this podcast, in every kind of way you can imagine how a little boy might be abused by his daddy, that was my dad. Yet, that was just our normal.

 

I didn't know if it was bad, if it was wrong, whatever. He was very verbally abusive to the whole family, him and my mom. I think my mother, the whole time growing up, was just trying to salvage her marriage and to save face with her family, so on and so forth.

 

It was a pretty rough childhood, but I want to say that in those moments, it was just the way it was.  We didn't know good from bad. That was still my dad.

 

I believe that in some weird way that he loved us and cared for us, but there were so many mental health and substance abuse issues with him and the perversion that he had in his life that just leaked over to my little brother and me.  It was a different relationship with my little brother. He was very abusive to my little brother.

 

My little brother had a lot of behavioral issues and rebellion issues.  I was more of the compliant, the good kid in school. I made the good grades. 

 

I wanted to please my dad, and yet I hated him from the inside. I just couldn't stand him. I rebelled against him. 

 

There were a lot of drugs and alcohol my parents were. My mother was not an abuser by any means. My mother was not an alcoholic by any means, but my mother went along with my dad.

 

My whole childhood evolved around parties. My dad was a pretty social guy. He was into politics and those kinds of things.

 

I was exposed to a lot of stuff at an early age. I can remember being seven, eight years old, going around in parties and just sipping whatever it was out of unknown glasses and enjoying the effect that it had on me as a little kid. I was a big fan of Billy Bear.

 

I didn't even know what Billy Bear was, but I was drinking Billy Bear. That's a Jimmy Carter beer, so that takes you back in the day. All the music that we listened to back in those days all evolved around afternoon delight and getting high in some kind of form or fashion.

 

That was just what I clung to as a little boy and as a young man.  I was a full-fledged blackout alcoholic by the time I was a sophomore in high school. I was drinking regularly.

 

I was able to fly under the radar pretty good because mom and dad were always in the middle of crisis. As long as I wasn't in a lot of trouble, that was easily hidden, even though it was really out in the light, if that makes any kind of sense. It was pretty rough. 

 

Looking back on it, it was rough. In today's standards, we would have been taken away from our homes, and those kinds of things would have been exposed. We just didn't know.

 

That's just kind of the way it was, but it did lead me into a lifestyle.  I don't want to say they led me into it. I really chose to and clung to a lifestyle.

 

When I was a little boy, Laura, I grew up Catholic.  We went to parochial schools until I was in fourth grade. I can remember even now. 

 

I loved God. I loved God. He was my refuge. 

 

I didn't know what a refuge meant. I can just say it by language now. I can remember having my crucifix above my bed and I would pray. 

 

I wanted to be a priest. I really did. By the time I got to about 10, 11, 12 years old, the things that had happened and the things that had occurred in my life and my behavior as well just led me to believe that if God was even real because I cried out to him a lot and it didn't seem like he was there.

 

If he was real, then he really didn't want anything to do with me anyway.  I became kind of anti-God, anti-rebellious. I was just a very rebellious young man. 

 

I went to high school. I mean, I'm getting pretty good grades in high school. My dad was a high school teacher in the same high school I went to. 

 

It was very tumultuous. You can imagine our house. There were split-ups and break-ups, this and that. My dad was a party guy. All the students loved him. I hated him for that. 

 

He was separated from my mom. He was a cheater and a liar. There were a lot of things that bothered me.

 

After I graduated high school, I had a partial scholarship to go to Eastern Illinois University, but I showed my dad. I got in my little car and drove to Wyoming. That just became my lifestyle, drinking, drugging, roaming all around the country as a young man. 

 

Then I eventually got married to a gal I met down in Kentucky. We had three children really fast. I would say that we got along about three times. That was Emily, Amy, and Mark. We were divorced after five years. Then I was just as a young man and a young adult, just wild and crazy.

 

Laura Dugger: (9:48 - 10:05) Wow. Brian, thank you for sharing a glimpse of your childhood and even into adulthood. Just for clarification then, when you did get divorced, did you stay in the same state or how did all of that work with your children?

 

Brian Butler: (10:08 - 16:52) Yeah. No. Like I said, when I was 18, I was out in California for a while.  I was in Wyoming for a while. I landed in Kentucky and met my first wife. We had three kids really fast, divorced after five years.

 

Then I always wanted to be in a relationship with my children. I don't know if there's anybody out there listening, but I was really stuck in an addictive lifestyle. I was alcohol and drugs, just crazy in it. 

 

I still loved my kids. Now, people on the outside looking in would say, oh, he doesn't love his kids by his lifestyle, but I still love my kids. I paid child support, crying out loud.

 

I really did. My relationship with my ex-wife was so volatile that she would prevent me from seeing the kids. After several years, I just gave up.

 

I just didn't give up on the visits and so on and so forth.  I was in Tennessee for a few years. I was all around the country.

 

Eventually, in the late 90s, I did actually get temporary custody of my kids because my ex-wife had went off the rails bad.  I had my kids for about a year that they lived with me. That was a sweet time.

 

Once again, my alcoholism and drug addiction and the mom came back into play.  There were just so many issues there. That's when I really got into it.

 

After the kids went back to their mom, I got into hard drugs, really hard drugs.  I started manufacturing methamphetamine, so on and so forth. There was a time, I'll back this up.

 

With my childhood and everything that happened there with my dad, before I got divorced from my ex-wife, one of the pivotal moments, I believe, looking back on my life and what led me into just this trajectory of anger and malice and hating God and anything that was good was the moment that my dad called us all together for a family meeting because him and my mom were officially going to get divorced. I was like 21 years old, something like that.

 

My dad came to tell us that he was a homosexual and that he had been living a homosexual lie for his whole life and that this was the lifestyle that he was choosing. For me, at that age, everything prior to that moment in my life just became a lie. I can't begin to even put into words what that did to me inside because of the perversion that I've experienced with my dad.

 

My father had made several comments along the way that I was gay, that I was going to be a little queer, a little this and that. I wasn't, but the things that he had done, then you've wrestled with all that stuff. I just became so angry and so fueled with resentment that I really started on this trajectory with my drug and alcohol use that even though I still liked it, I don't want to remove that from it. 

 

I liked being high. I liked being drunk. I enjoyed all the aspects of that lifestyle at the time.

 

I went at it in a much different way because I didn't really care anymore.  That's just from a looking back perspective. In the moment, I think I cared a lot about everything, but I just had really taken this perspective on in my personal life that nothing matters as much as it did. 

 

It just really didn't matter. I was just going to keep moving forward and doing the things that I to the extreme. I was very extreme on everything.

 

If it was drinking, I'm going to drink more than you are. If it was smoking something, I'm going to smoke more than you are. If it was snorting, look at the schmoz. 

 

That's just the way I lived my lifestyle. It really took on that trajectory in my adult life until the law started becoming an issue when I was in my 30s. After I'd had the kids for all my life, I tell folks, in those times, I was like a functioning zombie.

 

I was still getting high, still drinking, but golly, I was the dad that got up and had breakfast for the kids.  I was a strict disciplinarian. I was over the top on so many things.

 

I was abusive in some ways like my dad was, the way that I spoke to the kids, the way that I treated my children. I didn't certainly know sexual abuse or anything like that with my own children, but I was a really strict disciplinarian. I regret that now.

 

It's one of my biggest regrets ever, the way that I treated those kids. I tried to make a good life for about a year. Then when they went back to their mom, it just really, really flew apart my life.

 

It was me doing it. I was flying it apart. I just destroyed everything around me.

 

If you've cared about me, then that would make me hate you even more. Anyone that cared about me, I would get you to care about me, and then I would hate you for caring about me. It's crazy making stuff, but that's the way that I live my life. 

 

I eventually was introduced to a fellow that knew how to manufacture methamphetamine. He taught me the method. Of course, being the extreme person that I am, I went all in.

 

I became a methamphetamine manufacturer and dealer and lived that lifestyle for quite some time. It's not like it is now where you're driving around in cornfields with a five-gallon bucket making methamphetamine or Mexican methamphetamine. I had a lab down in Southern Illinois, and I sold a lot of methamphetamines, which is disastrous to me now, but I really became an in-my-own-mind gangster kind of person. 

 

It was a very violent lifestyle. It was very awful, certainly nothing that you would want to glorify, but that's just who I became. And I lived my life for a number of years, and it was disastrous.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:53 - 19:27) And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

 

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

 

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses.

 

Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

 

Well, I'm hearing all of this for the first time, and it's unimaginable what you were endured growing up, and my heart just aches to hear what happened and then hear the choices that were produced out of that and see where that lifestyle was leading you. But Brian, I just appreciate you for so many reasons, and one of those is for being transparent and vulnerable but also sharing the truth that there was some pleasure in it. You were enjoying it for a while, and the Bible does talk about pleasures of sin for a season, but we all know that that trajectory leads to death, even if it's death of relationships.

 

So, looking at your relationships at that time, were you still in contact with your mom or your brother or your dad throughout all of this?

 

Brian Butler: (19:28 - 21:37) No, not really. My brother, it's an interesting story. My brother had married a gal right out of high school. 

 

He got born again. He became a Christian. So poor guy, I just tortured him my whole adult life.

 

I just made fun of him, and I called him weak, and he was a crutch, and we got in even physical fights over it a couple times, but we didn't have much of a relationship as you can imagine. I think that there were several times that we tried to reach out and be in contact, but it just didn't work due to my addictions and my alcoholism and his pride and all those other kinds of things. My mom held on to me for years.

 

I put my mother through, I tortured her. I was arrested seven times for driving under the influence. I had five DUI convictions.

 

I was in and out of trouble. I was always in the forefront of her mind, and I've experienced this with my own children after I came to Christ, continually worried that she wouldn't get the phone call that her son was dead, basically. The last two or three years of my being out there, I had no contact with my mom because she finally said, you're dead to me.

 

I'm done. You're not my son. I don't want to hear from you, and I was like, cool.

 

I don't care. You've been dead to me for 40 years, right? I blamed her for allowing things to happen.

 

It just wasn't true, right? I mean, it wasn't her fault at all of any of my childhood, and she was just trying to be a good mom and save her marriage, and she was being abused mentally and stuff that whole time. But you know how we are as sinful creatures.

 

I didn't want to take the blame on me because it wasn't my fault, so I was blaming everybody else around me. So, I didn't really have any solid relationships as far as family, anything like that goes while I was out there in my addiction. It all changed when I was arrested in 2003.

 

So that's a story.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:38 - 21:43) Are you willing to take us back to 2003 and share that story?

 

Brian Butler: (21:45 - 38:08) Yeah, yeah. So I was, like I said, I had become, you know, I was living a gangster life, so I was in the drug world, and I don't know if anybody knows anything about the drug world, but it's not like the movies. It's worse. 

 

It's worse than they depict in movies. So, I was living that lifestyle for several years. I had a lot of money. I had a lot of guns. I had a lot of property. I had all the methamphetamine I could possibly use because I was manufacturing it. 

 

I was selling more than I could possibly imagine. I was using more than that. I was king of the world is what I thought while everything around me was burning. 

 

I was the king, if that makes any sense. And so that was the lifestyle that had led up to 2003. I'll never forget one time I had married another gal after my first wife and I had divorced several years later, and that was just a relationship based on lies and substance abuse.

 

So, it really wasn't a marriage at all, but I had been arrested in Vincennes, Indiana for dealing narcotics, and I had some other arrests down in Kentucky for dealing narcotics, and I made bail and all this. And so, what happened was in 2002, I went on the run. I still had my meth lab, and I was still selling lots of methamphetamine, but I had these warrants, and I was king of the world in my mind, and nobody was going to catch me, and I was going out like a gangster. 

 

They were never going to take me alive, this fact. So, she went with me, which is great. She was crazy. 

 

And we went on the run, and we just lived from casino to casino. I would make methamphetamine. I would sell $20,000 worth, and then we just kind of traveled around and lived that kind of lifestyle. 

 

And I'll never forget one time down at the Casino Queen in St. Louis, Missouri. There's a casino down there. I just done a pretty big dope deal, and the casino was hot, and the air conditioning was down, and it was like 5 o'clock in the morning, and I just had to get out of there.

 

I just had to get away, and I got in my van and took a spin down in Belleville, Illinois, and I ended up in a cemetery on top of this cemetery, and it was looking down this great big hill. And I haven't been there since, but people from that area are like, yeah, I know that cemetery. I'm like, yeah, well, that's where I really had my Lieutenant Dan moment with God almost. 

 

I sat on top of that. I was so, I can't explain it. I had lived my life in that addiction, loving that addiction, and loving getting high, loving drinking.

 

At that point in my life, I was still doing it. I hated myself, and I wanted to die, and I didn't like it so much anymore. I just wanted it to be over, and I kind of had it out with God.

 

I was drinking a fifth of whiskey, and I'm smoking methamphetamine. I'm a nine-millimeter pistol, and I'm putting it in my mouth. I was too much of a coward to pull the trigger, so that made me even more angry, and I thought for a moment that God might be real, and that there might be something worth living, but it was just a moment, and I kind of gathered myself together, and I went back to the casino, and just like as if nothing had happened, and just a few weeks later, I was arrested in Washington, Indiana. 

 

I had made arrangements to see my kids. I had my kids for the weekend, which is crazy to think that I was in any kind of shape to be around my kids, but I was. I was always a functioning guy, and I was a gangster, so we had the kids for a weekend, and when the kids left the location I was at, my ex-wife called the police and told them where I was, and so that led into a great big chase, and there was all kinds of SWAT teams and all kinds of things.

 

I was holed up in a house at one point, and police were banging on the windows and trying to get in the house, and eventually they called on the telephone, and it just kept ringing and kept ringing and kept ringing.  I'm stuck in this house. I didn't have my guns. 

 

I didn't have any drugs. I didn't have a cigarette, right, and the crazy thing about that whole thing is, I'll just back to the subject, so I'm in this chase, right, on foot from the police. I tried to pull a guy out of his pickup truck.

 

Of all things, God put this guy in the pickup truck. He was an off-duty police officer, and so I'm trying to carjack an off-duty police officer. He's having none of it. 

 

I get away from him. I get in this. I'm running through a residential neighborhood trying to get any door open that I possibly could to get away from the police who were chasing me, and I made it to an open door, and I opened up that door, and it was an insurance company, and there were a bunch of little ladies sitting around computers in this room, and I was just like, hey, can I get a glass of water, and out there I am sweating profusely just in 10 o'clock in the morning with Harley Davidson boots, Hawaiian t-shirt, obviously in distress, and I scared these ladies to death, and I'm hearing them call the police anyway, and I just grabbed a glass of water and went out on that front porch, and some fella drove up in a pickup truck and got out of the truck to come in to do business with the insurance company, and I went and stole his truck, and I was able to get away and get to a safe spot.

 

I think it's safe because I'm only there for about three or four minutes, and the police show up all the way around that house, and so they're calling.  They're banging on the windows. We know it's you in there.

 

You need to come out, and eventually after about an hour or so of that, I did answer the phone, and the police officer said, I had a fake ID, and they were like, we know you're not Bill Berkshire.  We know that you're Brian Butler. You need to come out of that house.

 

You need to come out of there now, or we're going to come and get you, and I said, well, try it, because I'll kill the first three of you through the door. Now, they had already confiscated my fan and guns and all that kind of stuff, but they didn't know what I had. I didn't have anything.

 

There was a six-foot decorative simmer I swore on the wall that couldn't cut butter that I was arming myself with, and it took about another hour or two, and the SWAT team showed up, and they eventually got me out of that house. I was arrested and facing 120 years in the 20th century. I had multiple carjacking, dealing, manufacturing, every possible imaginable that you could possibly imagine of illegal substances.

 

I had those on me in my van and the property, and so there was the chase and all that happened, so they were unwilling to run any of those charges concurrent. They took four major charges and said, we're going to run a consecutive, and I was facing 120 years in prison. Honestly, when I was in jail, it was kind of like a relief in a way. 

 

I was so angry. I was delusional. I really thought that the people who owed me money were going to break me out. 

 

That's how delusional I was. They didn't, but that's where I had a moment, and I come back to my mom. I'd been in jail about a month, and what had happened was my mom came to the jail, and she didn't come there for a visit.

 

She came on a Saturday morning, and the police let her in, and she wanted to know if I would sign papers because I still had temporary custody of my children on paper and if my brother could have legal custody over my kids while all this was going on. Because my children, I'll back that up, my children were in Kentucky with their mom, my youngest daughter at that time. I was 14 years old, and she was using methamphetamine. 

 

She was into alcohol. She wasn't being supervised. She was in abusive relationships with her mother's friends.

 

She was cutting herself because her daddy was going away forever. That was my daughter, and I loved her, and I was just taken aback that my brother would go down and rescue her. The whole story of how I came to Christ is all involved in this.

 

I'm kind of all over the place, but the Friday night prior to my mom showing up at the jail, back in those days in jail, there was no overcrowding in Indiana, and there were 16 of us in a six-man cell, and I had been in that jail for, like I said, three or four weeks, and on Friday nights, they would have the Gideons come in. Now, the only thing I knew about a Gideon was those Bibles that they put in hotels, and I was none too interested in any God talk. I didn't believe in that.

 

I just didn't want anything to do with that. As a matter of fact, I was mad about it, but after three or four weeks of being in there smelling nothing but feet and urine, I was willing to do anything for 15 minutes to get out of that cell, and so I agreed to go, and me and two other guys went up to a visitation booth, and there was a little fella in there, and he was very nice, but I couldn't tell you anything he said for the 15 minutes, nothing. 

 

I wasn't paying attention. I was just sitting there looking around, just glad to be out of that cell, but at the end of that 15 minutes, he knocked on the window, and he pointed at me. He said, can I pray for you, and I said, hell no, you can't pray for me.

 

I don't want your prayers. I'm not here for your prayer, and whatever language it was, I was very vile. I said, but if you want to pray for something, you think that God of yours is listening, you pray for my daughter, and I kind of told her a little bit about what's going on with my kid.

 

I said, and so you pray for her, and he did, and I can't tell you what he prayed because I really wasn't listening, but it was nice, and I remember that night going back to my cell, and with my Catholic upbringing and everything that had happened, I think I probably said a little prayer myself that night to this God that I didn't believe in, and then a week later, my mom shows up telling me that my brother in Cleveland, Ohio, born again Christian, that the very night that this guy was praying, my brother and his wife decided to come down to Vincent's, Indiana, and they got my mom, and they drove to Owensburg, Kentucky, and literally kidnapped my daughter and took her back to live with them, and I wasn't, I was just kind of in a haze.

 

I wasn't putting all that together in the moment, and like I said, mom wasn't there for a visit, and I was just like Mark, would you do that for me?  He went and got Amy. I just couldn't believe it, and she's like, yes, I just need you to sign the paper so I can get out of here, and so I did, and that night, I was back in that jail cell, and all those lights were off, and man, the Holy Spirit of God fell on me, and he told me he was real, and to the best of my ability, I confessed my sins. 

 

I repented for my sins. I was just, I just spent the whole night as a 40-year-old gangster, blubber, and idiot in a jail cell just crying about everything, just about my dad, about my lifestyle. I missed my kids.

 

It just came crashing down on me, and I believe that that was the night that I was truly born again. I believe that God had his hand on me before the foundation of the world. He knew me, and that he loved me, and he chose me, and that I loved him as a little boy, and for whatever happened in my life that I chose to ignore him and run away from him and hate him, but through his mercy and grace and through even facing 120 years in the penitentiary that he saved me, and I believe that night that I got saved, and I just told him, I know we're not supposed to make a deal with God, but it was just kind of like, man, I believe you're real. I don't know anything about you.

 

I don't know what, you know, my Catholic brother, I don't know if Mary has anything to do with this. I don't know nothing about you, but I believe you're real, and I'll do anything you tell me for the rest of my life if you just take this taste out of my mouth. I just don't want this addiction. I don't want all this crap anymore, and in that moment, he did.

 

I really believe that he took that away from me, and I've been following him kind of ever since. The next morning when they opened up the cell, we went out to the day room.  I'll never forget. There was a Bible there. Now, that Bible's been there the whole time, but it's the first time I see the Bible, and I kind of, you know, I'm still struggling.

 

I've been up all night, and I'm kind of wiped out anyway, drinking instant coffee and, you know, having a God experience, and there's a Bible, and I pick up this Bible, and it was in Romans chapter five. I'll never get it, and I'll just paraphrase, but I remember reading the verses that having been justified by faith, and it just kind of hit me that I wish I really believed God was real, and I don't know what that means, and I don't know anything about it, but I went on to read that I was no longer his enemy and that I could have peace with him and that he was going to give me good character and that I could persevere. It didn't matter what I had in front of me, so it was just God speaking to me in those moments that I'm going to be with you through all this, and it was just a wonderful, life-changing experience. It didn't, you know, sanctification takes a long time.

 

I still was sentenced to 15 years in prison, which was a miracle, right? I was facing 120, and there it was nothing that I had done prior to my conversion. I had been in front of a judge, and I had a $1 million full cash bond.

 

I was in front of the judge, and I'm like, I want a bond reduction. The judge is like; you're telling me you're going to pay $100,000 to get out of jail. I said, angrily, you could reduce my bond, and he said, denied.

 

We're not going to do that, and that was the last time I really talked to a judge or an attorney, and I sat in jail for six or seven months, and this attorney that was appointed to me after the one that I fired, he came to me one time and said, hey, they're willing to give you a 15-year sentence in prison if that's what you want to do, and I said, okay.  I wasn't concerned about prison. I wasn't concerned.

 

I just wanted to do what the Lord wanted me to, and that's been my whole life since.  People will ask me about prison. It was horrible, as you can imagine. 

 

I was in the state of Indiana. There were no separation of offenders at that time. I was in a medium-max facility, so I was doing time with guys who were doing life, which were the best guys to do it with because they were just doing life, and then little gangbangers from Indianapolis.

 

It was a terrible affair. Every kind of drug possible, every kind of perversion possible was there, but it's where I met Jesus, and it's where I learned to follow Christ, and I had a godly man come alongside of me in the prison, Pastor Woodcocks, who just assigned my guy, and he helped me to work through so many things and to be a man of truth and integrity and all the different things that he taught me, so while I look back at that, and I say, yeah, prison sucked.

 

It was awful, and I never want to go back again in that capacity, but it's where I learned to follow Christ, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.  I wouldn't trade that time for anything. I needed every ounce of that time to become closer to him and to be less about me, and then I got out of prison in 2009.

 

It was a shock probation here to Peoria, Illinois, where my oldest daughter was at that time, and I moved in with her.  She's been following Jesus ever since. It's not been an easy road, right?

 

It's not been being a convicted felon and having all those things, but God does, if he is for us, who can be against us, right?  He has really, really, really been by my side. There's been so many things that have happened.

 

I could go on for hours and hours and hours, but that's how I came to Jesus and where I got to know Jesus and where I really solidified my relationship with, I believe, and he's saved.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:10 - 38:55) What an incredible journey he took you on.

 

Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month.  Enjoy.

 

So, then Brian, as a freed man at that point, once you were out of prison, how did you eventually find your way to what is now Pathway Ministries?

 

Brian Butler: (38:57 - 45:56) It's been a wild ride. I got out of prison thinking I was going to be a prison minister and there was going to be all kinds of things that were going to happen. You kind of buy into that prosperity stuff while I was locked up.

 

I really thought that there were big things in store. After I was out of prison for about three months, it was 2009, and so the economy in Peoria was really bad. The cap shut down. 

 

Places weren't hiring. I couldn't find a job anywhere. I remember going to Kroger in Madison Park.

 

If anybody remembers Madison Park Kroger in Peoria, it was a really rough part of town.  They were banging out in the parking lot. I'm here.

 

I called the manager and he said set up a time for an interview.  I went to the interview, and I took him my resume. They taught us in the penitentiary and in classes.

 

I got a bachelor's degree in prison, by the way. I filled out my resume, and I filled the time up in my resume with the prison ministry I was involved in. Just so you don't have that slack of time.

 

The manager said, oh, I see that you were in a prison ministry. Man, that's amazing. Did they let you in there every day? 

 

Well, I lived there. I was in prison at that time. This is what I was doing while I was in prison.

 

His words to me shook me to the core because he handed me back that resume and he said, “We don't hire your kind here.” I'm telling you, after all the disappointment I have for two or three months of not being able to find a job and rejection after rejection, I walked out in the parking lot. My daughter took me back to her house and I remember sitting on the end of her bed.

 

I'm not a crier, really, but at that time I think I might have been crying a little bit. She was bawling and I was just like, “Just take me down to the shelter. I don't want to be any more of a burden to this family. Please, I got to go.”

 

She's like, “Don't give up, dad, don't give up.” I'm like, “I'll give it up, oh God, I just don't want to be a burden.” 

 

She said, “Just wait, just wait, just give it a little more time.” I agreed to do that. That week, through the grapevine, one of the friends of a guy that she went to church with, John McCormick, at McCormick Auto Place in Belleville, Illinois, called and said, “Hey, I heard through the grapevine you're having a hard time getting a job. I need somebody washing cars.”

 

That was a far cry from, you know, I'm a 46-year-old man and I'd walk around with briefcases full of money. It was a humbling experience, but I went to work for John, and he ended up, you know, as a Christian, he was just a Christ follower. 

 

He accepted me into his family. I went from 10 hours a week to part-time. I eventually got a part-time job at the Salvation Army. 

 

They called me. It was one of the first places I put in a resume. Paul Cousin called me from the Salvation Army.

 

He's like, “Hey, I don't know why we never saw your resume before, but we need help. Would you like to come to work at the safety net working with homeless guys?” I'm thinking, well, you know, I've been homeless, so sure.

 

And I went down there and I started working there.  And so eventually that turned into a full-time job at the Salvation Army. And I stayed working washing cars. 

 

I washed cars for 12 years with John. He's just so great. He's one of the greatest Christian dudes you ever met. 

 

He just, he was so vital in my Christian walk in my life. But I was at the Salvation Army. I was running, believe it or not, the lead case manager of Drop-In Center for the Homeless. 

 

And I had conversations with Peoria Rescue Mission at that time, Peoria Rescue Ministries. Now, I'd never been there. I thought they were religious zealots. 

 

You know, it was everything. It was so religious that the guys couldn't be there. But I did know that they did not allow drugs or alcohol.

 

And so, when I would meet a man that was struggling with addiction and they wanted to get out of them, I would call and talk to Lee and say, “Hey, listen, I got a guy I think would be good for your fit. Can I send him down there?” And so, we kind of built this bond. 

 

Lee and I had this relationship over the phone. I'd never met the guy ever. Back in those days, Lee was really into sending those funny little emails.

 

You know, they always have a little cartoon or a little message. You know, the email knows that when you're really busy at work, you kind of start deleting after a while. And one day he sent me an email, and it said, “Are you interested?” 

 

And for some reason, I opened it. And I know the reason is God. And he said that they had a position as the assistant director of the rescue mission, but I'd be interested in coming down and applying for the job. 

 

And I went down and met with Lee. And one thing led to another. My wife, Pam, who I'm married to now, I consider my wife.

 

I can't believe that I'm married to somebody who loves God. Now, I know we're supposed to stay the way that we are, biblically a single and all these things scripturally as we come to Christ to stay that way. But this is my first marriage. 

 

This is my marriage. In Christ, we're in marriage. She is the most wonderful. She's my gift that God just kind of gave me to care for and to nurture and to love her the way that I should.  But she really encouraged me. At the time of the Salvation Army, we were HUD funded. 

 

I couldn't openly share my faith. I always had to take back doors to it. And she's like, this is what you've always prayed for. 

 

They'll let you do that there, take the job. And so, I did. And that's how I came on at Peoria Rescue Ministries. 

 

Eventually it became Pathway Ministries. I just kind of worked as Mr. Rokey, came on board in 2016. And then in 2018, we're really trying to do some things back there.

 

And from the way we used to do them, meeting people in crisis, I had a lot of good ideas.  And John had a lot of great ideas. And we're on the same page. 

 

And he asked me to be program director. And I'm like, well, I'd love to, if I can write a program. And so, he just gave me free reign.

 

And then now I'm the director of residential ministries at Pathway Ministries. Just being able to allow God to blow that whole thing up. And he has to meet people just like me, just like so many other sons and daughters out there that need to have a God block put in front of them while they're in their crisis. 

 

And so, it's just been a beautiful thing. And I just praise God for all the leadership and just what we've been able to do. And that's how I came to Pathway Ministries. 

 

Just being able to do God's work there. It's incredible. It's crazy.

 

Putting it in a nutshell is really hard because there's been so many things that the Lord has done personally and through the ministry. It has just been incredible, the path that he's had me.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:57 - 46:35) You do such an amazing work there, and it is a worthy ministry to support. We'll definitely put links in the show notes for today's episode for Pathway Ministries. And that's a whole other conversation to talk about the miracles witnessed there.

 

But just to go back and close a few loops, I'm sorry, I'm going to throw a few things at you.  So, when did Pam come into the picture? And what's a current snapshot of your life with your children now?

 

And what did forgiveness look like with your family of origin?

 

Brian Butler: (46:37 - 52:04) Yeah, so my father passed away while I was in prison. It was an amazing story with my dad. He met me in prison and wanted to meet with me.

 

And I hadn't seen my father in years, and he came to the prison lot. I had worked through the forgiveness of my dad, I think, before we met, but he came to ask my forgiveness. And I'll never forget, he said, Brian, I made the wrong choice. 

 

My whole life, I've made the wrong choices. And I'm just really sorry. And so, it was a sweet moment with me and him.

 

I'm not saying that we had a, you know, it wasn't like we're father, son kind of stuff.  But when he passed away, there's no false guilt. There's no guilt. 

 

There's nothing I'm trusting. He even actually became a minister of the Catholic Church in the place that he lived. And I believe that he came to faith in Christ and Christ alone.

 

So, it was really something to see that transformation in my dad, even though he was, you know, he saw a lot of stuff. But I truly believe that the father entered his heart. My mom, shortly after I was incarcerated, after that experience at the jail, started to come around a little bit and supported me.

 

You know, and I think the biggest thing that helped me in or helped our relationship in the prison was I didn't ask for things. When I was able to talk to my mother, I was able to say, how are you? And just kind of relieve her of the burden.

 

It was bad enough that her son was in prison. It was bad enough that she had to see her son on the evening news and everything that I put her through. I just wanted to mend that and just to comfort my mom and just love my mom the best possible. 

 

So, our relationship really grew through those days. And it's so amazing. So, here's a woman that said, you're dead to me, and I don't want around anymore. 

 

In 2019, my mom and stepdad have been since Indiana, and they're aging now. They're in their early 80s. But in 2019, we had a family conversation, and she wanted to move to Peoria, Illinois, so that my wife and I could take care of her and him in their old age. 

 

So, they lived two miles away from us, and we were able to meet my mom. It's crazy. And just to be able to be in a relationship with her and to be able to care for her, getting ready to take a trip down to Kentucky to see her sister, and all that entails.

 

So, it's just been a wonderful blessing for a relationship. My mom knows God's real because he's changed me and my children. While I didn't beat them over the head with the Bible, they know that God is real because they've seen him work in me.

 

They've all struggled with addiction and all those kinds of things. But I'm happy to say that all three of them are clean and sober. Right now, my son followed in my footsteps. 

 

Unfortunately, he grew up, even though I wasn’t there. I was divorced from his mother when he was two years old. But he always looked to me, and he always saw the tough guy and the gangster.

 

And I think that's what he really wanted to be. He ended up getting a prison sentence, and he spent 13 years in prison. And he is getting out in February. 

 

So that's encouraging. But all three of them are clean and sober, and those relationships have been restored. Pam and I, you can imagine, Pam had no idea about addiction or lifestyle or gangsters.

 

So I am completely off the rails, foreign to her.  But she tells me all the time, she doesn't know that old guy. All she knows is me.

 

And she can hear stories, and she can hear testimonies. And of course, my mom is very open to share anything at a family dinner about Brian, which I'm like, please, mom, don't talk. But she hears those stories, and she just says, I don't know that man. 

 

I don't know who that was. This is the man I'm married to. And so, it's just, we have a wonderful relationship. 

 

She's my biggest supporter, my biggest fan. We pray together. We love the Lord together.  It's really something. I'm not saying that we haven't had a lot of hurt because my kids have been in addiction. I'm saying it hasn't been really, really hard.

 

But through those sufferings, that's how Jesus makes it more like him, through those sufferings and through those hard times.  And he's given me an avenue personally to be able to help others. So, I love that scripture. 

 

It gives us this comfort. We needed the comfort so that one day you can comfort others with that same kind of comfort. So, he's enabled me to be in a position where I can comfort other folks in addiction and build great teams here at Pathway that are ministering to the folks that we serve in a meaningful way for the Lord. 

 

And then I've been able to serve my wife. I've been able to serve her and that's what I want to do.

 

Laura Dugger: (52:05 - 52:31) Oh, it is evident to see you two at church and see you two holding hands and just your gentle way of interacting with each other is even a testimony. So how incredible that God has restored so much that was broken. And even going back to your brother Mark, was he rejoicing to hear you were now walking with Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

 

Brian Butler: (52:32 - 54:07) Yeah, well, at first it was kind of like the prodigal son story, and he was the big brother rather than me. I think at first there was a lot of, and rightfully so, I was no good. And so, I had the hearing officer tell me one time in Springfield Illinois when I was trying to get my driver's license back, which was another God story. 

 

And I have a driver's license after five DUIs. I had that hearing officer tell me, even though I had been clean and sober for seven years, he said, you know, talk is cheap. He said, walking it is different.

 

So, you come back and see me in a year and when you've walked it, then we'll have a talk about giving you a driver's license. And I've always kind of stored that in my heart with my relationship with my brother. And now after my brother has seen me walk it, we have a pretty good relationship. 

 

We're in cahoots because I'm taking care of mom. And so, we have a pretty good relationship there. Yeah, so it's been really a miracle. 

 

Miracles of what has happened in relationships. Now some relationships that I've had, even with family members, you know, hey, that Brian Butler is still nothing but a no-good dope dealing maniac. And we're, you know, we're done. 

 

And that's okay. That's God's job. My job is to keep walking the walk and talking the talk and sticking close to him and not letting anything get in the way of that and doing whatever I can to restore relationships and then let God do the rest. 

 

And so, it's been, it's hard, but good. Yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:08 - 54:22) You are a new creation. And Brian, I know you could continue teaching us so many things. Is there any encouragement you want to share before our conversation comes to a close?

 

Brian Butler: (54:23 - 56:46) Yeah, I would just say if you're, I had some, when I was going through it with my daughter, I had a lot of good counselors around me.  And then I got some advice that I didn't follow. And I'm so glad that I didn't.

 

I certainly think that if when we meet people that are in living destructive lifestyles, or you have a child in addiction and alcoholism, and they are just burning everything down around you, absolutely to set up boundaries and to limit communication to where they're draining you to death.  But if they're still breathing, then there's still hope. And we should never forget that there's hope and that God is so much bigger, and we can trust him with them more than what we can do with them.

 

I struggled for years with my daughter in addiction and being up in the middle of the night, just waiting on a phone call and praying and pleading and even thinking, Lord, it would be better if she was just gone.  If you just took her, would you? It's so harrowing.

 

But I never cut off communication completely because when she came out of the pig pen, I'm going to run. Now there were several runs that I made that, you know, she wasn't really out of the pig pen, but I don't regret that. And my daughter will say to a lot of folks, even though inside I kind of gave up in certain times, but I didn't make the life to end. 

 

And she'll say, my dad never gave up on me. My dad was always there for me. And so, I just want to encourage people, if they're breathing, there's still hope and you can still put up boundaries and be strong and not give in and not give money and not do all those things, but there's still hope and our hope was in Christ.

 

And then we can hope that he does that work and that he'll do that work in us as we're hoping him to do it in others. So that's what I would just leave with folks that are really going through it because I've been through it. I've put people through it.

 

It's a tangled web and there's a whole lot, but you need to be around people that are going to love you and care for you and come around to you. You need to tell the truth to other people so that you don't hide it because it will destroy you.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:47 - 57:22) That's so good, Brian. How special to have her daddy never give up on her. And it reflects that greater truth that our heavenly father never gives up on any of us.  And he died for us even while we were still sinners. Thank you for sharing that.

 

And you may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Brian, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Brian Butler: (57:24 - 58:36) I would say my savvy sauce is living in a daytight compartment, living this life one moment at a time, one day at a time, certainly making plans for the future, certainly living that life out. But I'm going to do what the Lord wants me to do right now. And then what he wants me to do next and what he wants me to do after that. 

 

But just really staying in that daytight compartment. You know, I teach our students all the time at Pathway Ministries, really when we come to faith, this is really simplistic, but after we come to faith in the Lord Jesus, it really is about doing the next little right thing. And then the next little right thing after that, and the next little right thing after that.

 

And no one does the next little right thing all the time. But when you don't do the next little right thing, you get up and do the next little right thing. Understanding that sometimes doing the next little right thing might be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life.

 

And so, if we stay in that daytime compartment with Jesus, he'll help us through that next little right thing.  And so that's my savvy. So, I was just staying in the moment and doing the next little right thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:37 - 59:08) Oh, I love that so much. Ryan, you are an admirable man who walks the walk, and God has gifted you with such passion and such a compelling story. So, thank you for continuing to faithfully obey him.

 

You are certainly shining in our community and faithfully serving our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So, thank you for being my guest.

 

Brian Butler: (59:09 - 59:11) Thank you so much, Laura Dugger. We love you.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:11 - 1:02:28) We love you, too.

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news. 

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. 

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. 

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin. 

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. 

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him. 

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started. 

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. 

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. 

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Christian Advice for Toxic Relationships Part 2 with Kris Reece (Episode 289)

Christian Advice for Toxic Relationships Part 2 with Kris Reece (Episode 289)

 

*Disclaimer* This episode contains mature content and user discretion is suggested.

 

2 Timothy 3:1-5 NIV “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Kris Reece is a Christian Author, Toxic Relationship Coach, and Manipulation Tactics Specialist. Kris equips believers to escape the grip of toxic relationships—especially those shaped by guilt, confusion, or spiritual distortion. Her work empowers Christians to set biblical boundaries and walk in emotional and spiritual freedom. Connect with her on Instagram or through her website. 

 

Thank you to our sponsor for today’s episode: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Topics and Questions We Cover:

1. Do you believe it’s more nature or nurture or do you have any insight on why people are narcissists?
2. Can we cut off toxic people without disobeying God?
3. Will you share how we can forgive biblically, without tolerating further abuse?

 

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast:

146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick

148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg

263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:10)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

 

My returning guest for today is Kris Reece. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, I hope that you'll just press pause right now and go back to listen to part one.

 

After reading her amazing book, Breaking the Narcissist's Grip, I knew that we would need multiple weeks to cover this very important topic. So, we're going to dive deeper into part two today. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Kris.

 

Kris Reece: (1:14 - 1:18) Thank you so much, Laura. I am so excited to be here again today.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:18 - 1:47) Well, I am delighted to have you back. And it was so surprising your answer to that first question last week. So, I want to unpack that a little bit further.

 

You were talking about so many adults who were struggling and coming for coaching that they were identifying the same thing, a relationship with a toxic mother. And so, can you paint the picture of what that actually looked like when they had that realization?

 

Kris Reece: (1:49 - 5:10) Well, you know, what's interesting is everybody had different realizations. Some came to them on their own. I wish I could take credit for it.

 

They really just came to the wow, I didn't realize just how much my mother keeps coming into this. And then others were really, you know, we had to kind of dig a little bit deeper in terms of what happened in childhood. And again, I'm not the type of counselor who would just sit back and look for excuses to blame somebody's parents.

 

Absolutely not. But when we start to kind of take a step back into the past to understand what's happening in the present, that's when all of that began to unfold. So, one woman in particular, oh, Laura, it broke my heart.

 

Absolutely. So, she was struggling with a very difficult marriage. She had no idea what she wanted to do with her life.

 

And she, honestly, from the way what she said, she says, I don't even know who I am. And when we started to unpack the relationship with her mother and her father and what life looked like when she was growing up, everything was all about pleasing her mother. And I don't mean in a healthy way where, of course, we want to please and get the approval of our parents.

 

It was to such an extreme that if she didn't speak the way her mother wanted her to, if she didn't comply the way her mother wanted her to, the mother would then manipulate. She would start to cry. Why are you destroying me?

 

Do you not see what you're doing to me? And then if that didn't work, if the daughter even tried to, and I got to tell you, from what I hear from this young lady, like maybe the age of 12, she had some pretty healthy responses that she was trying to take to this woman. And when that didn't go well, the mother wouldn't talk to her for a week, a week.

 

She wouldn't even cook for her. She wouldn't do anything. She wouldn't even acknowledge her presence.

 

So, this woman grew up believing that I now have to perform. And what's worse, she developed these codependent traits because she learned how to be a mood monitor. I have to now tiptoe around what is mom going to think.

 

What is mom going to say? And no longer is she now doing what's right. She's doing what feels right, meaning what's going to keep me out of trouble?

 

What's going to keep mom most happy with me? And she knew all of this was dysfunctional. But at the same time, of course, you're talking about a 12-year-old, and obviously these traits were going on long before that.

 

She's just learning how to cope. She's not there to parent the parent. But so now that's what she was taught and caught.

 

So, it's not like the mother came out of the bedroom every morning and said, hey, I'm going to teach you how to perform for me. I'm going to teach you how to monitor all of my moods. She didn't do that.

 

Everything was caught. So now her default mechanism is giving in to problematic relationships, tiptoeing around, avoiding things. So that's where the issue in her marriage then came in, and it started to get unpacked when we discovered what relationship with mom was like.

 

Laura Dugger: (5:12 - 5:39) Okay, and that's always so helpful to hear a true story, how that played out. I'm hearing sometimes maybe if you have a parent who's a narcissist, maybe that's likely that the child will experience codependency. But then also, do you see it as a typical generational pattern?

 

Let's say if you had a narcissistic mother, a lot of times she'll raise a narcissistic son and so on.

 

Kris Reece: (5:41 - 8:02) Unfortunately, yes. So guaranteed narcissism? Absolutely not. Guaranteed dysfunctional traits? Yes, unfortunately. So how can I be in an unhealthy environment and walk out healthy?

 

Unless I've done some work to recognize what the unhealthy patterns were. This is how I, I don't want to say contributed as in the child is at fault, but this is what I did to cope. And what helped me survive back then is actually killing me today.

 

So, unless a child, an adult child is going to begin to do that work, then yes, they're going to continue to carry some dysfunctional traits. Is it automatic that they will become narcissists? No, no, no, no, absolutely not.

 

Can they? Sure. Absolutely.

 

So, when we talk about how narcissism gets developed, it's especially through raising, it's either an overly attentive, overly admiring type of parent. Like, you know, Timmy can do no wrong. He's just wonderful and awesome and this and that.

 

So yeah, chances are Timmy's going to kind of step out of that with some bit of a narcissism. So, when the world smacks him around a little bit and says, Hey, you're not so awesome. He's either going to wake up and say, well, maybe I'm not, or he's now going to make those people the problem.

 

So narcissistic parents have a tendency to project all of their stuff onto the child. So, I, I encountered this one, one daughter that I worked with whose mother was a narcissist and whose brother now was becoming a narcissist. And what she would do is she would tell the son, this is why your teacher is picking on you.

 

He's jealous of you. This is why, you know, your, um, your friend doesn't call you anymore. It's because he's jealous of you.

 

So, she is priming this young man to be a narcissist because when he gets out into the world, not everybody's going to comply to that message. And now he's going to have the language to make them the problem. So, the son was a narcissist, the daughter, not so much, but she had a lot of dysfunctional traits that came as a, as a result of that relationship.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:03 - 8:16) Okay. So, then kind of the age-old question, do you have any insight for how much narcissism is nature versus nurture? What are we born with versus what are we trained into?

 

Kris Reece: (8:18 - 11:07) That's an awesome question because science shows us that narcissism is both. It's nature and nurture nature in the sense that we're all born selfish. We're all, we are all born sinful, but nurture, which implies the environment, plays a stronger role in whether those traits are actually going to develop into full blown narcissism or maybe even narcissistic personality disorder, which is far more rare than people think it is.

 

So, when we look at genetics, so that would be nature, twin and family studies actually suggest about 40 to 60% of narcissistic traits are hereditary, meaning that some people are born with temperaments that make them more prone to arrogance, low empathy, or emotional sensitivity. I don't know that I agree with that entirely, but let's move on to the nurture part. This is your environment.

 

So, the other 40 to 60% they say come from upbringing, things like overindulging or a highly critical parent. So, it can actually be both sides. So, it's not only the overindulgence, but it's that highly critical parent that is always criticizing but never offering any structured support.

 

It also comes from that inconsistent affection, conditional love. That's a huge one. I will love you if.

 

It can also come from childhood trauma, which can actually spawn from neglect or being overly praised for their performance rather than their character. So, in other words, genetics may load the gun, but environment pulls the trigger. So, what starts as survival, I'll never be hurt again, can now grow into pride, control, and entitlement.

 

So, I believe personally it has more to do with nurture. Science will say there's a strong mix of both. I think it's more nurture.

 

I do believe that we all have a temperament. You look at any children in your family. I don't know how many kids you have, but you'll see that even from a very young age, they all have very unique personalities from a very young age.

 

But within that temperament, we're all going to have our strengths and our weaknesses. So, some temperaments may be a little bit more prone to pride that does not guarantee narcissism because I've seen plenty of people with that temperament operate in their strengths as opposed to their weaknesses. So, I think a lot of it has to do more with nurture.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:08 - 11:38) That is incredibly helpful. And as people have been listening to this conversation and last week's conversation, let's just say if they open up to us and say, I've identified I am in relationship with a narcissist, what's the most helpful thing we can do and the most hurtful way we could respond, especially as Jesus followers?

 

Kris Reece: (11:39 - 13:30) I know we touched on this lightly last week. The first step is to shift your focus. That focus has got to come off the narcissist and back onto yourself and Jesus and Jesus through you.

 

You're not going to be able to change them. You are not going to be able to change them. If you're taking notes, I want you to write that down.

 

You cannot change them. Highlight it. Asterisk it. Circle it. Do whatever you need to do. You cannot change them, but you can choose how you respond.

 

So, when you stop trying to manage their behavior and start letting God heal your heart, everything changes. So, where we can begin is by saying, Lord, show me. Show me where I've lost my peace and help me take it back.

 

Show me where I have reacted inappropriately. Show me the entire truth in this situation because this is where real freedom is going to come in, not in fixing them, but in allowing God to restore you. So, you're saying what's the best thing they can do and what's the worst thing they can do?

 

The worst thing you can do is continue to focus on them. I know you're a narcissist. I know you're doing this.

 

I see you. Don't, don't, don't. It's going to steal your peace because remember, they've got default tactics.

 

They're either going to start love bombing and you're going to think, oh, this was great. I changed them. You didn't change them.

 

They just changed their tactic or they're going to start gaslighting you and they're going to start twisting scripture and they're going to start throwing it back at you. And that, that sense of enlightenment, if I'm allowed to use that word in this sense, that you're so enlightened to what they're doing and what's going on is going to get robbed so quickly. So, shift your focus.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:31 - 13:53) Okay. And then one step further, let's say it's our friend who comes to us. So then one step removed. Basically, even as the church, how can we respond to that person in a way that's actually helpful to them? And how can we respond in ways that are unintentionally, but still hurtful?

 

Kris Reece: (13:54 - 17:21) Yeah. So, this is so important. And I wish more people in the church would hear this because some of the worst gas lighters are standing behind the pulpit.

 

We put spiritual band-aids over demonic hemorrhages and we actually begin to make the situation worse. So, the most helpful thing that you can do is to believe them. Listen without judgment.

 

Now, I understand that there are a lot of people out there, and especially with that term narcissist. You have a pastor that's sitting down with a woman who comes into the office and says, my husband is a narcissist. We all just bristle.

 

I bristle when somebody comes in and says, this one's a narcissist. My first question is always going to be this. What makes you say that?

 

I don't automatically correct them. I don't criticize. And I believe them to the degree that they're going through something.

 

Doesn't mean I have to believe them to the degree of what they would consider the diagnosis because that's irrelevant. But what we do need to believe is that they are going through something. And they need to be listened to without judgment.

 

Now, if something's wrong, if something needs to be corrected, we can do that later. Are we really going to bring any harm to somebody by delaying a little bit of correction while we make a proper assessment? So, if we're going to default to either one, whether it's not believing them or believing them, please believe them.

 

Just be that safe place. Because people in narcissistic relationships, true narcissistic relationships, are already doubting themselves. They are already questioning their own reality.

 

What they need is safety, not more spiritual pressure. So, we want to avoid things like spiritual bypassing. And this is where we just kind of stick scriptures on that emotional hemorrhage.

 

Oh, just forgive. Oh, just move on. Don't you think you're overreacting?

 

Have you prayed on this? Are you giving more sex? You know, we throw all of this.

 

And that kind of advice actually is the gaslighting that keeps someone trapped in a shame cycle because they walk out of there. I can't tell you the number of times men and women alike, they walk out from a Christian counselor or a church environment, and they feel worse than when they came in. They're not even looking for somebody to say, yes, he's awful. He's the devil. You are so wonderful. That's not even what they're looking for.

 

They're looking for some semblance of sanity. So, what you want to do is just remind them that Jesus never asked them to confuse love with tolerating abuse. Our job is not to fix their situation but just be that safe place that they need right in that moment.

 

That's really helpful. I'm a little passionate about that because it really angers me how the church is handling all of this stuff. We do a lot of messages on forgiveness, but we don't do any messages on accountability.

 

We're not doing any messages on repentance and owning our part. So, it leaves the one who's already assuming the responsibility to try to assume some more.

 

Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:01) And I think that's so helpful for, like you said, for pastors, for people in the church, for biblical counselors, because that can sound great, biblical counseling and giving scripture. But practically, sometimes that, I mean, Satan, even when he was tempting Jesus, used scripture, but twisted it and manipulated it. Not saying that biblical counselors are doing that, but that we can... Not intentionally, but yeah. That's a good clarification because we can misapply that.

 

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To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today. My desire would be the same as yours, that people could come to the church as part of their healing.

 

But I think that is helpful. We need to be aware of where we've gotten this wrong. And it is something you even wrote about in the foreword of your book.

 

You said that in Christian community, forgiveness is often misapplied as tolerance for abuse. So, is there anything else you'd want to add to that, especially sharing ways that we can forgive biblically without tolerating further abuse?

 

Kris Reece: (20:02 - 21:54) Absolutely. But first, I have to give credit to the incredible Gloria Gaynor. She was the one who actually wrote that powerful line in the foreword.

 

Forgiveness is often misapplied for tolerating abuse. And she captured something that I see so often in the church. Many Christians were taught that forgiving someone means keeping them close, pretending the offense never happened, and reconciling and trusting again.

 

But biblical forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. Because forgiveness releases the offender from your judgment. Reconciliation requires their repentance.

 

You would be very foolish; I would be very foolish to reconcile in a relationship where there was no repentance. And Jesus commands us to forgive. Matthew 18, 22.

 

But he never told us to keep giving access to someone who refuses to turn from sin. He even set boundaries with those who are unrepentant. So why aren't we?

 

And I think that starts to become this Christian badge of honor, like we're somehow martyrs that we keep tolerating this abuse all in the name of love instead of setting boundaries. Because the truth is, at the end of the day, if I can be perfectly honest here, a lot of times it's not about us being loving, it's about us being afraid. Us being afraid to set those boundaries, afraid of their reaction, afraid of confrontation.

 

It's not about love. So yes, we can fully forgive and still create distance. But now we have to deal with the fallout of what that distance creates.

 

And that's stuff that if we turn our focus to Jesus, he begins to do in us. It's glorious if you actually allow it to unfold.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:56 - 22:24) Wow. And you've seen firsthand, I'm sure, so many miracles take place. But then you've said last time you're a practical gal.

 

So, as a believer, let's say if someone is in a relationship with a narcissist, that that's their parent or their spouse and they're unrepentant and it's been awful. Is there a way that as Christians they can cut off the relationship without disobeying God?

 

Kris Reece: (22:26 - 27:24) Absolutely. So, title is not going to trump toxicity. So, when the narcissist is a parent or a spouse, the answer isn't going to always be to just walk away.

 

It's to walk wisely. Because freedom doesn't always mean I got to say goodbye. It means I'm no longer being controlled by you.

 

And sometimes that's going to require distance or maybe even no contact for a season. Other times it just means a little bit more of an emotional detachment. And I don't mean that in a way that somebody might interpret as like I'm just going to now be cold to you.

 

But what I mean is that emotional detachment is that my identity, my worth is not wrapped up in your opinion of me. It's not wrapped up in your words. So, I have to have that emotional detachment so I can walk boldly in my purpose, in my identity.

 

And I can clearly set boundaries within the relationship. So, either way we have to look at this as the goal isn't revenge. The goal is not punishment.

 

It's peace. It's clarity. It's stewardship.

 

And that's where a lot of people get tossed up because we think, oh, you know, this is my spouse. This is my mother. And, okay, let's kind of separate those a little bit because the spousal relationship is the only covenantal relationship.

 

So, if your spouse has some narcissistic traits, meaning they're a little bit manipulative, they lie sometimes, they gaslight you, all that stuff, is that grounds for divorce? Unfortunately, no, no. You know, when it starts to venture into abuse, should we be getting away?

 

Yes. Every situation is going to be different to somebody listening right now that's going to bring tremendous relief to someone else. They're going to be very angry that I just said that because they want that way out.

 

But if God is not releasing you right now, I promise you it's because He's looking to do a work in you. And He's allowing this to stay right now. But, again, that is not an excuse to tolerate abuse.

 

But we also have to be careful what we call abuse. You don't make my breakfast the way I like and then you laugh at me. That's not abuse.

 

That's just a kind of faulty character. So, we really have to be careful as to what we label abuse. I know we're kind of getting down a little bit of a rabbit trail here.

 

But I know this is a very sensitive topic for most because some will say, no, the only biblical release for marriage is infidelity. And others will recognize that God does give concession for abuse. He's not calling you to stay in an abusive situation.

 

But we need to be careful what we do call abuse. So, walking away from the spouse is not as easy as walking away from a parent. You know, a parent, it's a little bit easier, but we still want to be able to guard our heart and understanding, am I walking away because I'm punishing you, because I don't want to deal with you, because I can't stand you, or dare I even say there's hatred on my heart for you.

 

That we really have to do a self-check. But if we're walking away because we have to start protecting our peace and start stewarding everything God's given to us, whether that's our peace, our heart, our purpose, then that's biblical. Because I think it's more society tells us, no, no, no, we need to do what our parents say.

 

No, no, no, we need to live next door to our parents. No, no, no, we're not allowed to detach from them. Well, that's not what the Bible says.

 

You know, I look back over the Bible, and I'm just like, there are so many stories of people who, you know, kind of left their parents behind, whether for whatever reasons. Let's just say they journeyed on, and they never saw them again. You know, it wasn't like I have to live right next door to you.

 

But a lot of these parents will put their own rules in these relationships. And if you don't comply, well, now somehow the adult child is the problem. So again, sorry, I'm going down a few rabbit trails.

 

But this is a very passionate topic of mine, because there's so many nuances to it. And I wish I could just say that it's so easy as saying, just walk away. You know, you go to a lot of online resources, and they'll say, oh, you're with a narcissist?

 

Just leave. Just go no contact. It's not that easy, and it's not that biblical.

 

But sometimes it is. But here's what I do know, is that freedom isn't about always leaving them. It's about no longer losing yourself to them.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:26 - 28:19) That is good. And I think you've drawn it out clearly, that difference with it's a little bit easier to understand with a parent-child relationship. I'd love to dive into the spousal relationship, because that discernment is really tricky.

 

And like you said, it's so different from one situation to the next. I think of three other incredible women who have also been guests on the podcast. Because you can do a deep dive and listen to Dr. Diane Langberg, Leslie Vernick, and Stacey Womack, where we do discuss a lot of this. But Kris, I'd really value your opinion, too, to also help with that discernment. In the spousal covenant, how can you identify when there is abuse versus just some of those tendencies that you mentioned?

 

Kris Reece: (28:20 - 33:06) How do you differentiate? So, there's going to be a spiritual and then a practical approach to it. The first one is spiritual.

 

You have to be prayerful. Because a lot of, let's just say women in this case, a lot of women who struggle with codependency, they will see abuse where there may just be personality differences. There may be some character flaws.

 

There may be differences, some behavioral issues. But because she's been so afraid to speak up for so long that she's now internalizing it as I feel abused. So, I had one situation where this woman would constantly call her husband abusive.

 

So, she would say something like, you know, if you're going to keep talking to me this way, then I think we need to create a little bit of distance between us. And what he meant was, like, I need to go in the next room. Because, you know, you're really reactive here, and I don't like the way you're talking to me.

 

And she would say, “I'm tired of being abused by you.” And he would ask, “what are you referring to? What do you mean by abusive?”

 

And she would go off on these generalities. Now, is that to say that a woman like that isn't abused just because she can't put language to it? No, that's not true.

 

But we also have to be careful. Has our upbringing trained us to see abuse where there isn't? So, I just want to put that as a caveat.

 

That's not always the case. And a lot of the counselors that I've been friends with and I connect with, don't experience that a lot. For some reason, that's a lot of the women that God has sent to me.

 

I don't know why. I don't know why. But a lot of the ones that are interpreting abuse or exaggerating abuse, I should say, where it isn't as abusive as they're saying it is.

 

I need to step back a little bit because this is probably angering somebody right now. They're like, no, I'm being abused. I have no doubt.

 

I have no doubt about that. But there are going to be some, some of us, who will interpret abuse the wrong way. So, I need you to be very, very prayerful and careful with how we use that word because I personally think the word abuse is even more abused than the word narcissist because it's very convenient.

 

Unless I've got physical scars, unless I hear somebody's spouse constantly yelling at you and berating you, I can't quantify that. I can't see it. I don't know.

 

But I do know that there is something that's taking place within you and something that's definitely taking place within the dynamic. So now let's take a big giant step back. How do I know that this is abusive?

 

Somebody is constantly invalidating you, meaning they are questioning your motives. They are accusing you of things that you're not doing. They are taking away your support.

 

They are making themselves your lifeline, meaning they're kind of isolating you. They're saying unkind and untrue words. They are unrepentant, unrepentant people.

 

These people are abusive because they're going to look to constantly justify their behavior. If you can't have a healthy, open dialogue with somebody who, when they make mistakes, maybe they'll come back and repent later, then you are likely in more of an abusive situation than you are a healthy dynamic. And don't get me wrong.

 

We've all got our dysfunctions. I even had a conversation with my husband just yesterday. And he said to me, he's like, honey, are you sure that's the most healthy way to be interacting right now?

 

And I didn't even realize that I had fallen back into an old pattern. It was temporary, but we're able to call each other out on certain things. When you don't have that kind of healthy dynamic where you can now both be accountable to each other, one has the power in the relationship, it's likely abusive.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:06 - 34:26) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them.

 

We heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading!

 

You articulate things so well, Kris, and there's a million more questions I could ask you, but I want to respect your time. So, I know that there's places we can go after this conversation to just continue learning from you.

 

So, can you share where we could head after this chat?

 

Kris Reece: (34:27 - 34:40) Absolutely. Well, I'd love it if you would head on over to the website. That is krisreece.com.

 

It's Kris with a K, Reece with a C. There you'll find a whole bunch of resources, free downloads. My new book is there.

 

So that would be the best place to go.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:41 - 34:58) Wonderful. We'll link to that again in the show notes for today's episode. And as you remember from last time, we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.

And so, it's my final question for you today, Kris. What is your savvy sauce?

 

Kris Reece: (34:59 - 41:20) Absolutely. So, my Savvy Sauce is learning to trade people's expectations for God's direction. Because peace always follows purpose.

 

You know, for so long I thought success, even spiritual success, meant being busy, being available, being constantly on. And honestly, if I can dare confess, fixing people. But the truth is that burnout's not holy.

 

Productivity isn't purpose. And before now, before I say yes to anything, I ask this one question. Is this an assignment from God, an expectation from people, or a diversion from the devil?

 

And that single filter has brought so much clarity and peace into my life. And I know we're running low on time, but there's something that's really touching on my heart. May I speak to it?

 

Please. Because, you know, a lot of times we don't, as people who have been in toxic relationships, we have no filters anymore. We just allow everything that they're bringing in to just invade our soul.

 

We don't have any external filters. We don't filter our mouth. We don't filter our mind.

 

We don't filter anything. And we don't stop and ask, wait a minute, hold on a second. Is this coming from God?

 

And this is why it's not so easy to say, hey, you know, that toxic relationship with your mother, just leave. Just go no contact. Move five states away.

 

Or no, you need to honor and obey. You need to just stay put. There is no hard and fast rule.

 

Now, there is one. We are called to honor, but how we interpret that honor, that needs to be biblical, not according to mom's standards. So instead of just doing away with all filters, I want to be able to put those proper filters in place and saying, is this from God?

 

So, let's take the relationship, for example. In my previous marriage, I was married to a narcissist. I learned very early on in the marriage that there was a problem.

 

I had no idea it was narcissism. I didn't even get language for that until years after the divorce. But very early on in the marriage, and I said, okay, Lord, what do you want me to do?

 

Because everything in my flesh said just run, just run. And he had me stay for nine years. He had me stay.

 

And I went through so many different phases. But what I recognized is in those nine years, God did an amazing transformative work within me that in hindsight I recognized he couldn't have done, or probably, yeah, he couldn't have done because I would have just moved on. So, I needed to be in that situation to be on my knees.

 

I needed to be in the midst of it to be in prayer. Because if I just left, that would have been a form of avoidance. So, in that case, it wasn't as easy.

 

And according to some people, I probably would have had a biblical release to leave. Now, eventually, it was an obvious biblical release. I mean, there was no doubt I was free to leave this relationship.

 

And that's when I knew that God had released me. So, we want to be able to examine, okay, God, do you have me in this for a reason? Is it for a reason and a season?

 

What are you doing inside of this? We make the assumption as people that God would never want me to suffer like this. Is that true?

 

Because I suffered for nine years, and it brought me to a greater level of faith and a greater level of glory, so that suffering served his purpose. So, the same thing is true for a parent relationship. God could have you in a situation where, no, you don't have a choice to leave.

 

But that doesn't mean that you don't find freedom from that person, even if you can't leave. And that's why the book is called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. It's not called Let's Go No Contact because I just want to be able to break that stronghold that you have over me, even if I am still present.

 

So now there are going to be other times where Satan is now going to send toxic people into your life, and you're going to think that it's your responsibility. Oh, God has put me here. No, Satan hand-delivered them.

 

And your job is to apply 2 Timothy 3.1. In the last days, there will be people who are lovers of self, proud, arrogant, boastful, and that list goes on. And what does God tell us to do at the end of that scripture? Avoid such people.

 

So now Satan sends in a diversion, and we decide that we're going to play Holy Spirit, and we're going to be the ones to be Jesus. We're just going to show them Jesus. No, the enemy is successful, slowly trying to destroy you.

 

And that's where we have to now put that filter on. So, when you go back, this is a very long answer to your savvy sauce. It's I have to be able to trade what people's expectations or even my expectations would be for what God wants in that moment.

 

Does he want me to stay in this relationship? What is he looking to do in me and through me? Does he want me out of that relationship?

 

Am I now codependent? Am I trying to stay in this longer than he called me to? And I'm now suffering the consequences of my choices.

 

So, in summary, I guess you could say when we stop chasing approval and start walking in alignment with what God wants from us, our life gets a whole lot lighter.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:22 - 41:57) Wow, Kris, I'm so grateful that you shared all of that and unpacked your answer and let us in on a glimpse of your story. Thank you for walking faithfully through that. And then for modeling that it's it wasn't a black and white answer, but at one time he had you stay and one time he set you free to go.

 

And I just really appreciate all that you've shared with us. You have an uncanny gift of speaking truth and love. So grateful for you.

 

Kris Reece: (41:58 - 42:01) Thank you. I greatly appreciate that. Thank you, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:03 - 45:44) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Toxic Relationships: Recognizing Narcissism in a Spouse, Parent, or Child with Kris Reece (Episode 288)

Toxic Relationships: Recognizing Narcissism in a Spouse, Parent, or Child with Kris Reece (Episode 288)

 

*Disclaimer* This episode contains mature content and user discretion is suggested. 

 

Proverbs 27:6 AMP “Faithful are the wounds of a friend [who corrects out of love and concern], But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful [because they serve his hidden agenda].”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Kris Reece is a Christian Author, Toxic Relationship Coach, and Manipulation Tactics Specialist. Kris equips believers to escape the grip of toxic relationships—especially those shaped by guilt, confusion, or spiritual distortion. Her work empowers Christians to set biblical boundaries and walk in emotional and spiritual freedom. Connect with her on Instagram or through her website. 

 

Thank you to our sponsor for today’s episode: Midwest Food Bank

 

Topics and Questions We Cover:

1. In your opinion, can you be a Christian and a narcissist?
2. Will you share a few of the toxic tactics narcissists use for power and control in relationships? 
3. Will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?

 

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast:

146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick

148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg

263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:10)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.

 

My captivating guest for this week is Kris Reece. She has an abundance of resources available online, and she's actually recently had this book published, Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. I cannot recommend this episode enough to you to find out about toxic relationships, whether that's with your parents or your adult children or your spouse. She's going to do a deep dive into narcissism. Help us understand it, help us identify those people in our lives, and most importantly, offer some hope, which is only possible through Jesus Christ. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kris.

 

Kris Reece: (1:31 - 1:34) Thank you so much for having me. I am so blessed to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:34 - 1:48) Well, I am so grateful to have you, and you are in a unique line of work that is so needed. How did you get into this work of offering Christian advice for toxic relationships?

 

Kris Reece: (1:50 - 4:16) Well, I'll give you the short version of that story. So, I had been in the fitness industry for a good 20 plus years, and I went back to school for counseling and theology because I really wanted to be able to help people emotionally and mentally as opposed to just physically, right?

 

So, as I started to counsel people, there were women that were coming to me from all walks of life and all ages. I'm talking 16 years old all the way up to 86 years old. And no matter what their issue was, no matter what they were struggling with, they were coming to me for purpose or just growing in their faith. It all came down to one thing. And Laura, I think this might surprise you just as much as it surprised me. Toxic mothers. I was floored. And this wasn't the kind of thing where now we're just blaming mom for everything. No, this started to get revealed on all of the dysfunctions that were taking place within their relationship with their mother and how it had impacted them in so many areas of their lives. So, I said, “Lord, I need to dive deeper into this.” Now, I had already come out of, unfortunately, several toxic narcissistic relationships, not with my mother. So, that was very foreign to me. So, I started to dive deeper into how those same traits applied. And it was sad and it was very scary. So, I started teaching more on that.

 

And then they started coming out of the woodwork. But what about my husband? What about my daughter? What about my boss? What about my... And it was just like a flood. And it reached a point where, Laura, I got to confess to you. I took this to the Lord and I said, please don't send me. I don't want to do this. This is toxic. It's like you're just dealing with this toxicity all day long. And once I began to rest in, not just talking about the toxic relationships, but understanding where His heart was in it and the healing that He wants, not only for the toxic people, but those weren't the ones that were coming to me, the ones that were affected and infected by it, is when my heart started to shift. I said, “okay, God, all right, send me.” And here we are. Many, many years later.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:16 - 4:41) Well, you've done some incredible work. And I am shocked by that answer. Can you clarify too with the toxic mothers? That's not speaking to the mom who's trying her best asking the Lord for help and yet making mistakes. Would you consider them as mothers who are narcissists or does toxic embrace a wider?

 

Kris Reece: (4:41 - 6:01) Toxic can embrace a much wider spectrum. It could be borderline personality disorder, even a lot of codependent traits. If they're not harnessed properly or surrendered to the Lord, it can be very toxic to our relationship. You know, you're dealing with the guilt and the manipulation. No, we are not in any way talking about a mother who's made some mistakes, hands up, who's surrendering all this to the Lord and really just trying to find her way, you know, regardless of whether it's a newborn, an infant, a teenager or an adult child.

 

That's not what I'm referring to as a toxic mother. And some of them do struggle because it's so common for, I guess, young adults at this point to just be like, my mom's toxic because your mother had an opinion, because your mother is trying to get a little bit more time with you. Now, all of a sudden she's toxic. So, the label is unfortunate, but no, we're not referring to that type of mother. We're talking about the ones that have been approached lovingly and gently and are still standing firm in their manipulation, their guilt, their no, this is my way or the highway, their distorted view of scripture. I don't care if you're two or 42, you're called to obey me. That's the kind of toxic mother we're talking about.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:13) That is helpful. And then just to zero in on that term, narcissist, can you just help us understand what characteristics define a narcissist?

 

Kris Reece: (6:14 - 8:00) Yeah, absolutely. So, at its core, narcissism is less about confidence and it's more about this distorted sense of self. And that distorted sense is what damages relationships. Psychologically, narcissism can actually be marked by three pillars.

 

Number one is an exaggerated sense of self-importance. They quite honestly believe that the world revolves around them. Two is a deep need for admiration. They crave validation and praise, and we call that supply. So, if you're giving it to them, you're on their good side. You're not, you're on the bad side. And then lastly is their lack of empathy. This is a true hallmark of narcissism. But I know you didn't ask this, but we kind of go down a little bit of a rabbit trail.

 

Now that narcissists are starting to catch on to what these traits look like, they're doing what we call performative empathy. So, they're looking and they're saying all the right words. One of my, I love to say is they got the words, they ain't got the music. So, you really have to understand what true empathy looks like, but they lack empathy. So, and then what happens is from those traits are going to flow three roots, entitlement, arrogance, and manipulation. They twist everything and it's all about them. And one of the things that we need to understand is that a one-time selfish act doesn't make someone a narcissist. I've said some things that, oh boy, that I need to repent of. It doesn't make somebody a narcissist, but a lifestyle of self-protective empathy, lacking behavior at the expense of others. Yeah. Raise the red flag.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:01 - 8:22) That's helpful. That even shows us the difference between a little self-absorbed or mistakes made and a narcissist. But then I'm also curious as we're raising children, do these traits show up early in life or when are they usually identifiable?

 

Kris Reece: (8:23 - 10:25) That's a great question. One that I don't think you're ever going to be able to get a solid answer from anyone on, because narcissistic traits, while they don't just appear out of nowhere, we can say that they're formed in childhood. And we can say that probably almost every child is a bit narcissistic. I mean, we don't get like the terrible mind, mind twos from nowhere. I mean, as children, as human beings, I mean, even scripture tells us we are innately selfish. Our heart is deceptively wicked. So, the point of childhood is for the parents to now pull that out of the child, to grow that out. Right. And a lot of times that doesn't take place. So, what we have to understand is that the roots usually form in childhood, but the fruit shows up later in life.

 

So, in childhood, you may notice things like entitlement, this extreme sensitivity to criticism, but kids, like we said, are naturally self-focused. So, that's actually going to be part of their normal development. So, kids are self-centered by nature, but narcissism becomes very concerning when someone never grows out of it. So, when we start to see by the teen years, you see that pattern take place and how they handle correction, how they handle empathy and accountability. And if empathy isn't growing, but entitlement is, oh, we've got a pretty big sign. So, now by adulthood, those narcissistic traits, they just become unmistakable.

 

You see the manipulation, the blame shifting, the lack of accountability, the control, especially when life requires any type of humility. So, immaturity says, I messed up. Narcissism says, you made me do it.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:25 - 11:04) Oh, that's helpful. And I guess just to put parents at ease, if they are parenting, let's say tweens and teens, I'd love to hear your take on this, but something we learned in grad school was that they said, “don't freak out when your child, even when your teen does this, because a lot of times teenagers could be fitting all of the description in the DSM for multiple things.” And that is part of adolescence and going through puberty and everything. But what I hear you saying is then if that pattern continues into adulthood, especially as you're developing certain things, but lacking empathy, that's one big concern. Is that correct?

 

Kris Reece: (11:04 - 12:07) That is correct. That is why they don't diagnose teenagers with narcissism, because quite honestly, I would say about 98% of them would be diagnosed. So, no, that's why we don't, because a lot of teenagers are that way. So, yes, don't panic if your teenagers are acting that way. But the other thing that I would also say is don't chalk it up to a phase. It's a great opportunity to speak the truth in love. You may not think they're hearing it. You may not think they're receiving it, but we are responsible as parents for obedience, not outcome. Of course, we want the best outcome for our children possible, but we can't just chalk up those traits as, ah, they're just being teenagers. Ah, it's just a phase. No, as your parent, I need to teach you and train you out of that phase, not force you out of the phase, but I need to train you out of that phase. And then the rest is going to be up to them.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:07 - 12:22) That's good. Knowing who's part to own. And would you say part of that then is disciplining them and discipling them, training them in the ways that we would think of or anything that you would add for how to help train our children out of these characteristics?

 

Kris Reece: (12:23 - 13:39) Absolutely. So, we do want to train them in the way they're supposed to go. So, when there is entitlement, we don't chalk it up to a phase. We don't continue to give what they're expecting. So, there needs to be consequences for behavior. And I'm not talking harsh punishment, but there's two sides. So, if there is really bad behavior that needs to stop, then there needs to be a consequence for that. On the flip side, if it's behavior that could kind of be borderline, and I don't mean borderline personality, I just mean borderline in terms of is this bad or is this a phase, then it's a talking too.

 

Hey, why did you decide to handle your classmate in this way? What do you think could have been a better way? What was the point of your outcome? What were you hoping the outcome would be, I should say? And then starting to really guide them through that, because they're still in their very formative years in terms of processing, in terms of how to cope with things. So, if they're now going to start defaulting to patterns that maybe that was taught or caught, we really want to take that opportunity to train them out of that. And we can do that with gentleness and love. And then, of course, use consequences when necessary.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:40 - 13:52) That is so well summed up, Kris. I appreciate that. And then what are some types of narcissism that make it especially difficult to recognize at first?

 

Kris Reece: (13:53 - 16:40) Oh, my favorite one. And I say that with seeping sarcasm. Is the covert narcissist. We would call that one the quiet one. And now if you want to add another layer of complexity, the Christian covert narcissist. This one is going to be the hardest type to detect because they don't look confident. They look wounded. They use self-pity. They use guilt. They use this emotional fragility. But they're using it to control others. And what we have to recognize is covert narcissists, they don't dominate the room. They dominate your emotions. They play the victim. So, you now feel responsible for their feelings, their life, their outcome. That's a scary one.

 

The other one is what we call the communal or we could refer to them as more of the spiritual narcissist. This is what we would refer to as the helper or the holy one. So, they appear really generous. Big servant's heart, maybe in a serving profession. They're spiritually devoted, but it's all about image. And they're going to use the good deeds. They're going to use the faith, the ministry, or their morality as proof of their superiority. And they may quote the Bible, but they will use shame, silence, and scripture to control others.

 

And the other one is, this is a little bit more of the obvious one, but we often disguise this in our society. And that's the overt. This is your classic narcissist. This is the one that people recognize. They're loud, they're attention seeking, they're boastful, they're arrogant, and they are just outwardly entitled. But we often, depending on the position that they're in, in business or politics, we're like, oh, they're confident. Oh, they're good leaders. They could be classic overt narcissists. And a lot of times these narcissists really go unrecognized because they always, always start with the charm or the kindness. My favorite is the connection. They establish this connection with you. They're gonna mirror your values, your interests, and yes, even your faith. And a lot of times they appear very wounded or generous, and the whole intention is to now just disarm you. Bottom line is a lot of narcissists, they're gonna wear different masks, but at the core, they're all the same.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:41 - 18:35) And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Do narcissists recognize or ever admit to being narcissists? Can they ever see that in themselves?

 

Kris Reece: (18:36 - 20:20) That's a great question. And that's actually two-sided. So, the one where I would say no, they don't see that in themselves. They see themselves truly as entitled, as somebody who's been given the short straw, somebody who is owed something, the victim. They honestly don't see themselves as narcissistic.

 

Then there's another side where they sort of see it and they actually will use that now to their advantage. See, this makes me somebody who is self-reflective. This is somebody who is, I'm willing to recognize where I've gone wrong. But the problem is, there's no depth there. You'll get generalities like, oh, I know I'm not perfect, but, and then you'll get a litany of justifications or you'll, I know I'm not perfect, but all of your sins are now laid out in detail. So, they will, if they do recognize it, they will use it to their advantage.

 

Now there is that final subset that does start to recognize and they see, I don't want to be this way. Wow, I've caused a lot of destruction to relationships. I do want to change. And that road is really long, really long. But I'm not, I'm not of the camp that believes that narcissists don't change. They can, if they want to. It takes a lot to recognize it. And I've seen some do.

 

Laura Dugger: (20:22 - 21:11) I appreciate that hope. You don't always hear that very often with this type of personality. But I think one more piece that has always been so confusing to me when loved ones have shared that they're in a relationship with someone who is a narcissist, whether that's their spouse or their parent is where I've been in friendship with people before. But they, all of their stories, no matter where they live in the world, the narcissist seems to struggle with the same things. They seem to act the same way. They're master manipulators. And I just don't understand how they all have the same playbook. And like you say, they lie even when they don't have to. So, as you've thought about this, are there any reasons why it's so similar across the board?

 

Kris Reece: (21:14 - 23:27) Yes, because by nature, they are, they're lazy. They don't want to put in an effort. And they're also, what word would I use to describe this? It's almost like they're aliens to empathy. So, if you could imagine an alien coming from, I don't believe in aliens, so please don't hear what I'm not saying, but let's just imagine for a moment, you know, they come on this earth and they're like, oh, I got to adapt myself to these people. I got to fit in. What do I do? So, they're going to start listening. They're going to start mimicking behaviors and they're going to start testing to see what works and what doesn't work. So, for them, now we go back to that whole childhood thing. If they've learned that the only way to get what I want is to lie, the only way to get people to see me as XYZ is to manipulate, that's what they're going to do. And they're going to do it by default.

 

And that's what people don't understand is that default mechanisms are so powerful that even a master manipulator could turn around and say, “you know, I really, I recognize, yeah, I do manipulate a little bit.” And then when push comes to shove, if they have not done the hard work to begin to dig and really understand where it came from, why it's there and start to develop the patterns to override it, they're going to default to the same way every single time.

 

And that's why they lie so easily. It's just a default. Now, I'm not saying that as an excuse, but it's a default. And what they also don't realize is that this is not just psychological. This is spiritual. Narcissism is fueled by pride, deception, and control. Is that describing anybody we know? That's the enemy to the core. So, it's not that they're all just studying the same playbook. It is that they're all influenced by the same spirit. And that's what we're struggling with.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:29 - 24:00) Wow. And that really, there was an aha moment, and I wrote this down, kind of what you're saying. But on page 133, you said, “it's like they're demonically inspired or at the very least, influenced.” And I think that makes so much sense. Even the insidious ways that they are cunning or crafty, that they're influenced by our enemy. That makes a lot more sense. Anything else that you would want to add to that?

 

Kris Reece: (24:02 - 25:36) Yes. When we look at, I hate to, I don't like to label people. But when we look at how the enemy operates, let's look at how Satan operates. Kill, steal, destroy. Control, pride, deception, manipulation. If he is now influencing these people and they are not putting up any of the barriers, they're continuing to give him a foothold. They are now walking in his purpose. So, if Satan is looking to do this to you, why wouldn't his ambassadors? They are highly influenced by his behaviors, and they don't even realize it. So, yes, we can have compassion. We can take this to prayer because any stronghold can be broken. But that's got to be done by the power of Christ.

 

So, we pray for their eyes to be open. We pray for them to see the wickedness of their ways and give them a desire to turn from it. But you're not going to change that. It's not going to happen, especially when it is so deeply spiritually rooted. Because a lot of times we get caught in the, well, I'm a good person. Well, I would never behave that way. If I knew I was doing that, I'd want to change. So, we think that our explanation alone is really just going to be the aha moment for the narcissist, right? So, we explain, we re-explain, we over-explain. And then what we don't realize is that now we just got caught in that trap as well. We're now playing that game on their turf and we're not going to win. We have got to hand over this spiritual battle to the Lord.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:37 - 25:54) Okay, so then that makes me wonder, you said that there is hope. So, how is this treatable? You've kind of let us in on a little bit of it, but also can you just share if you have ever seen someone repent or change their ways?

 

Kris Reece: (25:56 - 28:30) Yes, more than one. I've seen it on more than one occasion. It is a journey. It does not come from you just over loving them and just giving them passes and excuses and being more like Christ. It's usually from what I refer to as a two-by-four moment.

 

When God just clunks them over the head, everything is lost, everything is gone, and everything that they held so dearly, meaning everything that was holding them up. So, if you can think about narcissists, they can't function on their own. They don't have their own self-identity. They don't have their own self-discipline. They don't have any other self-regulation. They have no sense of self. So, everything is external. So, when God is looking to change somebody, guess what's going to happen? He's going to start kicking out those crutches one by one, and then they're going to get the two-by-four moment, which is that knock over the head, like that road to Damascus experience that Paul went through. It's like, hello, are we going to wake up here?

 

And that is when they start to have their awakening, and that is when they begin to pursue, hey, I think change might be possible. This is what happens to me. And then in that environment, if they're able to get met with then the love and the compassion, again, not the enabling, then you'll start to see that change begin to unfold. Narcissism is treatable, but not in the way people often imagine. It's not this surface-level behavioral issue. It's not getting somebody to say, I'm sorry, or getting somebody to validate you. It is a deep identity and a heart issue that is rooted in pride. And I don't know about you, there is not enough experience on the planet. I could never take somebody through that. That has got to be a God moment.

 

And that's where I want to just caution people sometimes, especially if we struggle with codependency, thinking that we are now responsible for these people, that maybe God planted me in their lives for such a time as this. Stop, stop, stop. Guard your heart. Allow God to heal you of what's driving you now to want to fix this person. And truly, truly, if you really love this person, pray for them, go into warfare for them, but hand them over to the Lord.

 

Laura Dugger: (28:32 - 28:48) Okay, so then another spiritual question, Kris, in your opinion, can someone be a Christian, a true born-again believer, and a narcissist? Ah, I love and I hate this question.

 

Kris Reece: (28:52 - 32:44) Hilary, you're going to love and hate my answer. Yes and no. So, in one sense, yes. In the sense that somebody can actually profess faith and faith in Christ but still live in a way that looks absolutely nothing like him. And we see this all throughout scripture. But claiming Christ and following Christ are not the same thing. And that's where I believe that there are times where it's no. You know, just because you had an altar moment where some way, somehow your belly was full, you were well rested, the music was just right, and you came to this place of, okay, I'm going to give my life to Christ at the altar, but you continued in your iniquity for the next 30 years. I really have to seriously question your salvation. But it's not my job to question someone's salvation. But I can question your walk. If I'm not seeing the fruit of that walk, I don't know that I can call you a brother or a sister. If you continue to walk in that route of pride and self-exaltation and manipulation, it's not of God. So, there's a difference between a Christian who's struggling and a Christian who's just refusing to admit any of the error of their ways. One of the questions that we really have to ask is, can a narcissist be saved? And the answer to that is absolutely. Jesus came for the broken, the blind, the hard-hearted, every single last one of them. But that transformation is going to require repentance.

 

So, yes, I think our hope always needs to be in, Lord, you can save them. If you saved a wretch like me, you could save them. So, now what happens is our prayer needs to now shift. Lord, give them a heart of repentance, a willingness to see themselves truthfully and surrender to your work. That's where our prayer now needs to shift. Not, Lord, get them to stop doing this, get them to stop doing that, get them out of here, move them on. Because if it is God's heart that none should perish, it should be our heart that none should perish. But all should come to repentance. So, that's where our prayer needs to be. So, yes, while there is hope, we're not mini-Jesuses. It's not going to happen. It's not our responsibility. Sometimes our responsibility is actually to step out of the way and allow them to suffer their own consequences, because that is what starts to bring a narcissist to themselves. Not always, but oftentimes. You know what it's reminding me of is the scripture in 1st or 2nd Corinthians, I can't remember, is when Paul commanded the young man who was sleeping with his stepmother to be cast out of the church, get rid of him, to send him out. And here's what he said, “Give him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.” So, it wasn't like, get rid of him. He's a piece of dirt. We don't want anything to do with him anymore. It's like, okay, if that's the lifestyle he wants to live, then let him live it. And let Satan have his way. So, his flesh is now destroyed. Not him as a person, but his flesh is destroyed. And that's really what narcissists are. They're very fleshly people. I want what I want when I want it, and I'm going to do whatever I can to get it. So, we really want to change our prayer to the Lord, lead them to repentance.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:49 - 34:01) Updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that, and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.

 

Will you also share a few of the toxic tactics that narcissists typically use for power and control in relationships?

 

Kris Reece: (34:02 - 36:33) Yes, actually one of their favorite ones is gaslighting. And I think it's just a word that is so overused and abused, but it is so accurate because it's not just lying, it is denying, it is distorting, and it is rewriting reality with the intention to make you doubt yourself, your memory, your feelings, or even your sanity. Tell me that's not wicked. I don't know what it is. It's manipulation at its finest. And the same with love bombing, which is another one of their tactics. At the start, or not even just at the start, maybe when they recognize that you've had enough, like that's it, I'm putting my foot down, I'm setting boundaries, sometimes they'll come in with that love bombing. And what they do is they start to overwhelm you with the affection and the attention and the promises and the chores and all those things that you've been just fighting for all those years. What they're looking to do is to recreate or recreate that emotional dependency, because it's not about love to them, it's about bait. So, in their mind, they're not going, oh no, I'm losing this relationship. Let me get my act together. It's, oh no, I'm losing control. Let me get him or her back into my clutches. So, those are two of the very common ones.

 

Another one is projection. You want to know what a narcissist is doing? Listen to what they're accusing you of. That will tell you clearly what they've got going on. Lying, selfishness, anger, cheating, hiding, whatever it is, they want to put you on the defensive instead of facing their truth. So, what it does is it puts the spotlight on you and keeps it off them. So, those are some of the most common tactics that they're going to use. And it's on a spectrum. They will do it to different degrees. They'll do it in different ways to different relationships. But they're always going to do what has worked in the past. So, again, once your eyes start to open, now it becomes more difficult. And now their tactics start to change just a little bit. Remember, they're the alien. They're here. They've now got to figure this out. They're like, oh, this isn't working anymore. So, they're going to try to figure out what does work. And that's where you need to be very careful. Know them by their fruit. Fruit takes time to develop.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:35 - 36:45) Okay. Even that term gaslighting, I think it can be hard to understand. Can you give an example of what that would look like in a relationship?

 

Kris Reece: (36:46 - 37:50) Yeah, absolutely. So, you can go to, let's say, your spouse and you tell them, you know, when you said this to me, it really hurt my feelings. An obvious form of gaslighting could be, I never said that. You're misunderstanding me. Now, a lot of times people become savvy enough to have proof. No, no, no. You did say that. See, it's right here. Well, that's not what I meant. And you should know that. If you were a good Christian, you would know that that's not what I meant. You know that I get a little confused. You know that I mix up my words.

 

And what they're doing is they're trying to distort your feelings instead of just owning. Wow. I didn't intend to make you feel that way, but I could see that it left an impact on you. They will skirt around all of that. They will make you question yourself. They will even deny, they will flat out deny that they said or did anything.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:52 - 38:26) And I see where this gets so confusing for the person in relationship with them, because there's extra layers that you talk about and even extra tactics, like pathological lying that are added in there too. Yep. But they will flat out deny it. Yeah. Well, there's also a few more terms that I'd love for you to explain, just because they may come up throughout our conversation this week and next week. So, will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?

 

Kris Reece: (38:27 - 43:41) Oh, absolutely. These are all very powerful and they are issues that can leave. I hate to use the word victim because we may be victimized, but if you're in Christ, you are not a victim. You have a hope and a future. God can meet you and do exceedingly abundantly above what you could ask, hope or think. But codependency, reactive abuse and trauma bonds are all very real and they often travel together. But they're different pieces of the same trap.

 

So, when we look at codependency, this is where your sense of worth or peace now depends on someone else's mood or approval. It's like saying, if you're okay, I'm okay. If you're not okay, I'm not okay. So, I need you to be okay. Okay. And you start to manage other people's emotions instead of your own. And that's when we start to confuse enabling with loving because at the core of it, we want to feel okay and they're not okay. So, we have to get them okay. And that's where that caring now turns into control.

 

So, now we get into reactive abuse. This is often very misunderstood because this happens a lot in churches. So, I want you to picture this. You have a married couple. Let's just say he is for the, just for the sake of our conversation. There are, there are a lot of female narcissists out there, but let's just say the male is the narcissist and he is gaslighting and he is abusive at home, but it's borderline. It's like, you know, he's a little insulting. He's a bit harsh. He's not loving. He's not nurturing. But boy, when he's at church, oh, he's everybody's pal. He's serving all the time. So, now when they go to counseling, they're sitting in front of the pastor, and she's got years and years and years of this abuse that has taken place. And she's now reacting to it. She's elevated. She's yelling, she's screaming, she's crying. And guess what happens? He's sitting there cool as a cucumber. I really don't understand. I mean, I know I've not been perfect and that's where the reactive abuse is taking place because she's now reacting to all of those years of manipulation and provocation and now questioning her own sanity because she knows what's going on. So, she's got that, what we refer to as cognitive dissonance going on.

 

She's like, well, wait a minute, he's done this, saying this, this isn't making sense. I know I'm not losing it, but I feel like I'm losing it. And that's what's taking place. So, she just explodes because she has no idea what's going on. Her sanity is in question right now. So, to that pastor, guess who looks like the problem? She does. So, if you would just react a little bit more gently when he brings something to you, you may not have this problem. And if she's a Christian, she's going to go back and recognize the error of her ways, which that is a problem. You know, we are responsible for how we react, but she's owning now all of it. So, now let's take a step back.

 

What is reactive abuse? It happens when you finally explode after those long periods of manipulation and provocation. The abuser then points to your reaction as the proof that you are the problem. And that keeps the guilt train going.

 

The trauma bond is what happens with trauma bonds is they form when your brain gets hooked on the cycles of fear and relief. And we also go back to that cognitive dissonance. We're like, oh, wait a minute. Okay, he's this way one minute and he's this way another minute. So, is he good? Is he bad? I don't, I don't, instead of the brain being able to say, he's both, you've got both of this going on and we need to deal with this. We're trying to put either a bad blanket on it or a good blanket on it. So, we get hooked in these cycles in the relationship. And what we're chasing is that constant good time. Maybe we had a great time at the gala and he was so wonderful. He was even kind to me after we got in the car, and those small moments of kindness start to release the dopamine, and they convince you to stay even though the big picture is you're being hurt long term.

 

It's like the frog in the boiling pot. They don't even realize it. But the good news, codependency, reactive abuse, and trauma bonds, once you recognize these patterns, you can begin to renew your mind, break the cycle and allow the Holy Spirit to retrain your heart towards peace instead of that counterfeit connection.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:06) Wow. That is so well summed up. And if somebody is recognizing that they're in that cycle or if they're identifying they're in a relationship with a narcissist, do you have a practical first step as we're starting to wind down our time together today? Anything that they could do before they tune in next week?

 

Kris Reece: (44:07 - 45:13) Absolutely. So, the first thing you're going to want to do is to release these feelings of shame and bringing this before God. Your time right now with the Lord can be precious and incredibly restorative. My hope would be that we take our focus off of them. Yes, I get it. We're starting to identify. We're recognizing. And all that can be very enlightening. But be careful not to fall into the enemy's trap of now overanalyzing, over fixing, over controlling.

 

Take this before the Lord and say, “God, what are you trying to do in me?” Because for whatever reason, He's allowed this relationship. For whatever reason, He's not allowing you out of it. There's a lot of work that He's going to want to begin to do in you. And this is not to say this is your responsibility, but I promise you at the end of this road, if you walk this with Him, there will be a life that is beyond your imagination. Whether it's in the relationship or not, I'm not sure, but it will be beyond your imagination.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:15 - 45:24) Thank you again for sharing the hope, Kris. And where can we go in between these weeks if we want to continue learning more from you?

 

Kris Reece: (45:25 - 45:43) Oh, that'd be great. I would love if you'd jump on over to my website. It's krisreece.com. That's Kris with a K, Reece with a C. And you're going to find a wealth of content and resources, some of them free resources. And it's also where you can find my new book. It's called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. Or you can just jump on Amazon for that as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:44 - 46:01) Wonderful. We'll add links for all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.

 

And so, as my final question for you today, Kris, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Kris Reece: (46:02 - 47:06) My savvy sauce is going to be very practical. I'm a really practical gal. And this may sound like a cliche, so I want you to kind of stick with me a little bit, but it has changed my life. And that is practicing the pause. In these difficult relationships, whether you were reactive before or not, you are now. And we want to begin to practice that pause because toxic people really want to dictate the emotional temperature of the conversation.

 

So, before you respond, before you react, before you decide anything, just one pause. And you got to ask yourself this one question. This is what I do. I say, is this led by peace or pressure? And that question has saved me from countless toxic conversations and impulsive decisions. So, before you respond, pause, because peace is always going to tell you the truth faster than pressure ever will.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:08 - 47:37) Well, so well said. I love that. And you are, I'm just so grateful that you were called to this work and that you did surrender to the Lord. Here I am. Send me with your book and the way that you're communicating today and all of these resources that you put together. I think a lot of people are going to find healing and hope. And that's my prayer as we conclude our time together. But I'm just very grateful for you, Kris. So, thank you for being my guest.

 

Kris Reece: (47:37 - 47:41) Thank you. Thank you. It's been such a blessing and an honor. I am so appreciative.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 51:25) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Leading in Parenting: Special Patreon Release with Arlene Pellicane

Leading in Parenting: Special Patreon Release with Arlene Pellicane

 

Titus 3:1 (AMP) “Remind people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready and willing to do good,"

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Arlene Pellicane is a speaker and author of several books including Parents Rising, 31 Days to a Happy Husband and Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life.   She is also the co-author of Growing Up Social: Raising Relational Kids in a Screen-Driven World (with Dr. Gary Chapman).  

 

Arlene has been a featured guest on the Today Show, Fox & Friends, Focus on the Family, FamilyLife Today, The 700 Club, and Turning Point with Dr. David Jeremiah.  She writes regularly for Proverbs 31 Ministries  and Girlfriends in God.  Arlene earned her BA from Biola University and her Masters in Journalism from Regent University.  Arlene lives in San Diego with her husband James and their three children Ethan, Noelle, and Lucy.  To learn more, visit www.ArlenePellicane.com 

 

Arlene Pellicane's Website

Arlene Pellicane's Podcast

 

Books by Arlene Pellicane:

Parents Rising

31 Days to a Happy Husband

31 Days to Becoming a Happy Wife

31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom

31 Days to a Younger You

Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life

Growing up Social by Dr. Gary Chapman and Arlene Pellicane

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:08)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:53) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

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I'm thrilled to welcome back author and speaker Arlene Pellicane. In her warm and welcoming way, she's going to share about parenting from a biblical perspective and give us practical steps to take to ensure as parents, we are leaders of the home and not followers of our children. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Arlene.

 

Arlene Pellicane: (1:54 - 1:55) It's great to be with you again. How fun.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:55 - 2:02) Well, in case our friends listening didn't hear your first episode, can you just catch us up on who you are and what you do?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (2:03 - 2:30) Sure. We talked about growing up social, raising relational kids in a screen-driven world. So, I just try to help families get a hold of that technology, so it doesn't take over your house.  And so, I speak and write books. My books include 31 Days to a Happy Husband, Growing Up Social, and 31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom. I have three kids. My husband, James, and I have been married for 21 years.  And our kids are now in high school, junior high, and elementary school. And they go boy, girl, girl.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:31 - 2:39) And let's even go one step further and go back a little bit in your history. What type of home were you raised in?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (2:41 - 3:25) I am an only child. So, my husband would say he's the last of four that I was raised in a very spoiled home. That's what he would say.  So, I was the only child. I had cousins who lived in the same neighborhood. So that was really nice.  So I never felt lonely. And apparently I didn't ask my parents for a sibling. So, they were like, okay, we're happy with one.  We'll just keep it this way. And so, I had cousins that were very close in age to me in the neighborhood that I played with. And so, I had a very happy childhood and a good childhood.  I will say my sweet mom, she's so funny. She's super social. She just loves people. So, I was always the kid that was waiting on the curb like, please, mom, come pick me up. Because she was probably talking to someone and couldn't get me soon enough.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:26 - 3:34) That's amazing. Have you carried on that style now that you're raising your own family? Or have you chosen to do some things differently?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (3:34 - 4:50) I think a lot of the ways I parent are very much like how my mom and dad were.  My mom and dad were very open, very relational, talking, hugging, and involved in what I did. I was a cheerleader.  And if I came home, she'd be awake with hot chocolate at midnight after a game. Or something like that. So, I think that idea of being relational.  And there were rules and there were boundaries. But it was a very relational home. I think we definitely have that.  And my home was very joyful. And we try to make our home very joyful. So probably the most distinctive difference is the way we handle chores and just being tougher.  My mom and dad and I were caterers. Like, oh, if you need something, we'll do that for you. Where my husband is like, uh-uh.  You can do that yourself. And I think that's good. Because the first time I did laundry was in college.  I mean, that's pretty late. I remember being in college and thinking, what in the world do I do with this quarter and this laundry? I have no idea. And so, my husband has helped us to instill that the kids, you know, as soon as, like, my youngest is in fifth grade.  But even by second or third grade, she was doing her own laundry. So, I think that's good. My husband has helped us to see that learning how to do chores at a young age is a positive thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:50 - 5:14) I think it's just so interesting to hear because we all have a different approach.  So I love hearing both of those stories. And now you're also a working mom. And I know that some of our listeners have mentioned how grateful they are to hear from fellow Christians who have chosen to work while also raising their children. So, has this been natural for you or was it a struggle at times?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (5:15 - 6:18) Yeah. And I have to say, you know, I am a working mom with a lot of flexibility because I speak and I write. But my schedule is at home, and I am my own boss. So, I can say to myself, oh, let's go to the field trip. You know, I can do those kinds of things where I know many moms who are working these overnight shifts and they are crazy busy. And so, in that sense, I feel like if I say, oh, it's been easy, you know, it's been OK, that's kind of why. Because I haven't been forced to do these crazy hours. So, if you are listening right now and you're like, I am so sleepy because I've been working so hard, my heart goes goes to you. So, this has been a wonderful mix just for me personally, because I have the flexibility to be available for my kids. But it gives me a purpose that's outside of my children that I really enjoy. And it's kind of cool because since I write about marriage and the family and parenting, it keeps me in my space. So, I'm kind of constantly getting to have stories for my own work.  So it's it's been quite ideal. I love it.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:19 - 6:26) So is there any scripture or clarity from the Lord that helped affirm you in both of those roles?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (6:27 - 7:36) Yeah, you know, I think of Proverbs three of trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. And so, as we're trusting in God, not leaning on our understanding and we're seeing like he will make your path straight. And so, I have seen that over and over and over again to simply trust. And it really is, you know, for me, it's being a speaker and an author. And I know some of you who are listening, that's something that you desire to do. But whether it's that or something else, you know, we live in a culture where you're supposed to be a celebrity, like you're supposed to amass numbers and have platforms and do all these things. And I think when you get to the point where it's like, you know, I want influence, I want impact, I want to help people. But I don't care if I help them with two followers or with 16, you know what I mean? Like not being into all those kinds of things. And I think when we turn our hearts to saying with our work, God, let your will be done in this. God be magnified in this Lord, just whatever I can do, multiply it. God will do that and be obedient that that's what's most important, not necessarily the Instagram followers, etc. So set your heart on God and the other things will fall into place.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:36 - 7:46) And like you said, in your work, you do write about family and parenting. So how can parents lead the home rather than children?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (7:47 - 10:36) This is so important, right? And it used to be that the home of yesterday might have been like, children are seen but not heard. But today it's backward.  It's like parents are seen but not heard. It's like people talking are the children. And so, watch your language.  You know, how do you talk to your children? Do you talk in a way that is like a leader or are you asking them questions all the time? So, I notice this about myself. So, for instance, that after you say something, you would say, okay, like, it's time to go come to dinner.  Okay. Like it's a question, right?  Not an instruction. Or why don't you wear this shirt? Okay. So, we, especially as moms, do this all the time. And if we don't tack the word, okay, on our voices still go up. Like we'll say, why don't you pick that one?  Isn't that a good idea? Like we're constantly like our voices go up in the question. So, part of leadership is even just listening to yourself.  How am I communicating? And I love what John Roseman, the psychologist says is communicate your instruction using the least amount of words possible. So, it's go to the car.

 

That's a leader, right? You're just telling your child, go to the car. But we say, okay, it's time to go to grandma's house.  And you know, we don't want to be late. So, let's start zipping up your jacket and let's go. Okay, it's time to go.  Are you not ready to go? Get your shoes on. Okay, you got your shoes.  That's so good. You got your shoes. Get in the car.  Right? So, it's like all we need to say was get in the car. So, I love that.  So just even assess how do you communicate to your children? Because your children are hearing all these things. And so, they just hear like this lovely paragraph.  They missed go to the car. So, assess how you talk. Use fewer words.  Don't make everything a question. And all of this, of course, stems from the idea, the realization that, wait a minute, I'm the leader in the home, not my child. So many people will say, well, my child won't let me do that.  Right? Like we ride bikes in our neighborhood. And my son, when he was in second grade, had a really bad accident involving him and a truck. And went to the hospital and was fine because of the grace of God and because he was wearing a helmet. And so, we'll see kids in the neighborhood without helmets. And my husband said to the dad, “You know, just last week, my son was hit by a car on this very street.  It's really important that your kids wear a helmet. And the father said, oh, I just can't get my kids to do it. So, this is the problem of, wait, who is the leader here? Is the child the leader or is the parent the leader? So, you've got to see, first of all, in scripture, it is children obey your parents and not the other way around. So, we've got to just embrace that with all of our heart.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:37 - 11:06) That's amazing to even hear you say that, because this morning this verse just jumped off the page at me. And it's in Titus 3, verse 1. And I'm reading out of the Amplified Version. And it says, remind people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready and willing to do good.  That just struck me for parenting. Like you're saying, it is biblical and it's important for us to lead.

 

Arlene Pellicane: (11:07 - 11:49) And wow, if your kids cannot learn from you, right, if in their own home they don't have that sense of, oh, there's this healthy authority over me and I do what they say. Like if they don't have that, then look at them as they grow up. They're going to have trouble with their relationship with God. It's like, oh, God commands us to do a lot of things.  And like Mary, we could say, let it be to me according to your word. I am your servant. Or like the modern person, we could be like, no way. Who are you to tell me what to do, right? So that authority, if they can get that from you as a parent, that's going to help them with their spouse, with their employer, with a police officer, with a teacher, with God. It just helps them in all those relationships.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:50 - 12:03) And I'm so grateful for people like you who are writing parenting books. And so, I want to know, how did you arrive at your eight strategies in one of your recent books titled Parents Rising?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (12:04 - 12:59) Yeah, a lot of it was what I was observing. Like what was I seeing with my children, with their friends in the elementary school, et cetera, our pediatrician and talking to other doctors, asking them like, what are you seeing? Because something my pediatrician said really struck me.  She's like, Arlene, a lot of times I'm not talking about physical things anymore. Like this is a pediatrician, right? It's not so much about shots and growth and all this.  It's how can I manage my child? They're so emotional. They're under distress.  They have anxiety. They're on video games all the time. So just listening to what she was saying of what are parents coming to her and saying, this is my problem, you know, and she's been a pediatrician for 25 years and has talked about, wow, in the last 10 years, all these problems because of technology, they're just enormous. So, listening to people's input led to these eight strategies.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:01 - 13:07) And you don't have to go through all of them, but could you at least touch on a few of these strategies and elaborate?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (13:07 - 16:59) Sure. You know, you can listen to our Growing Up Social one that we did to talk about this first strategy, which is amusement is not the highest priority. But what I'll say about that is as parents, you are not the cruise director. It is not your job to make everything fun from A to Z. Now you can do that on occasion. That's good.  You want to have fun. So don't get me wrong. Have fun.  But you're more like a trainer, a coach. And so, a lot of times we'll just give all the technology so our kids can be amused, but your kids don't need amusement. They need character. So, they need to be building character in your home.  So put amusement in its proper place so character can take shape. And that's going to be your first strategy. But I'll say a few things about strategy number four, which is the Bible and prayer are present daily. And it's just the idea that when kids see that you have a real faith, that it's not like, oh, I go to church on Sunday, but then every other day of the week I kind of look like any other home in this neighborhood. You know, like we watch the same things as our secular neighbor does.  We cuss sometimes. We spend our money on stuff we don't really tithe. And again, not a guilt trip, but I'm just saying when kids see that, oh, this doesn't make this huge difference in your life. Then when they're older, it's much easier for them to stray away from that faith because it's not strongly in them. But when they see like, oh, my mom and dad, they're not perfect, but they seek God. And when they make a mistake, they ask for forgiveness of me. And when I see them get money, they give it to the missionary. And when we have extra time, we try to serve other people or invite people to church. So those kinds of things. So not just like, oh, we attend church and we're good people.  But when kids see, oh, my mom's faith is real. My dad's faith is real.  That's going to make an impact on them. And that's going to help them to make that decision for themselves. So, make sure that that's something that's daily. And then for prayer, I will be the first to say, I want this amazing prayer life. But just like anyone else, I can go to bed and say, oh, my word, I didn't even pray today. So, one thing that's really helped me is Moms in Prayer.  And that is an international organization. And the total mission is two praying moms for every school. So that there would be two moms that would gather. And obviously there can be more to pray for their children by name and to pray for their school by name. And I started joining one of these when my son Ethan was in first grade. And now he is in 10th. And I can see such a huge difference in how God has moved in my children, in their friendships, in their school. Because every week while school's in session, I am praying with another woman for my kids by name. Like it is amazing. And I remember the very first week I did this, I joined a church group that had like one lady had college age kids.  And one lady had grandkids. So, it was a really diverse group.  I had the youngest kids. And we prayed. And we prayed that my son would make a Christian friend.  Because we're a public school. And the very next day my son Ethan said, Mom, I was in the playground, and I heard a boy singing. And Mom, he's a Christian.  And Mom, he's in my class. And I was like, Ethan, I just prayed with the moms just yesterday that you would find a Christian friend. And it's amazing.  That was first grade. And just about a month ago we had that same boy over for breakfast. And I told him that story.  And it was so funny. Like see how God works. So, he and my son are not close friends.  They have become acquaintances over the years. But we were able to have him over. And to be able to say that story, like you can see the boys lit up like, wow, this prayer thing really works. And so, if your kids can see that the Bible and prayer is part of your normal rhythm, that you care about it, that's going to make a huge difference in their spiritual lives.

 

Laura Dugger: (17:00 - 22:33) I would echo all of that. I think that life with Jesus is the most exciting type of life. And that's so great to hear how you incorporated it with your kids and let them in on that process.

 

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Now, back to the show.

 

Arlene Pellicane: (22:34 - 24:31) Another strategy number seven is love is spelled T-I-M-E, love is spelled time. It's that idea that yes, you can have quality time, but if you are not together all week and you have a half an hour of quality time only, that's not enough. You need to work on the quantity time as well. And again, one of the huge stealers is being on your phone, whether it's us, whether it's our kids. They did a survey of 6,000 kids all around the world and asked what's your parent's worst habit and 50% of them said my parent is on the phone and 34% of those people said and when we're talking in conversation, my parent will interrupt, like they will take a text while we're talking and that really bothers me. So, this idea of love is spelled T-I-M-E with time, just remember that when you're with your child, you need to have moments where there are no devices present. This doesn't mean that from the moment your child gets home from school to the moment they go to bed, you need to be staring at them and doing something.  No, that's not practical. Like you have to make dinner.  You have to pay your bills. We get that. But in the time in between those things, make sure there's time where maybe you're reading together. We just recently got a pool table, so we're playing pool together now. So have things in place, whether it's a frisbee or a ball, a chess game, a puzzle, where there is time that it's a regular rhythm to connect with your child, spend time together and it doesn't have to be this serious chat. You know, boys don't want to sit across the table with their mothers and have a serious chat, but a boy will play Nerf Gun Wars with you. So, like have activities so you're spending time together because in that shared activity, that's when there's an opportunity for that child to tell you something that maybe is on their heart, it's on their mind, because now there's a space to tell you. So, make sure that you are spending time with your kids.

 

Laura Dugger: (24:32 - 24:38) Wow. Is there anything else that we haven't covered yet in our time together that you want to make sure we hear?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (24:38 - 26:42) There are two thoughts I have. One is when you're spending that time together, research has shown that even having a phone present, so you're not touching it, it's just on the table. Like right now my phone is two feet away from me on my desk. So just having it there dilutes the conversation because they found that when people talk without it present, they feel more connected, like nothing is standing in the way between us. But when the phone is there, they know that at any moment that phone might ring, that phone might make a noise and my attention will be diverted and it dilutes the conversation. So, make sure your phones are completely not present when you are having that face-to-face time with your kids. And then the last thing I want to say is just have that mindset of strategy number eight, which is I am launching an adult, I am not babying a child.  And men tend to be pretty good at this. And again, this is a generality, but women, we're more like, oh, like let me do it for you.  So it's okay to let your kids grow up. And one thing my pastor says that I like very much is never do something for your child that your child can do on their own. So, something I love to do with my kids is I love to trim their nails, right? So, they're in elementary school, I'm trimming their nails, I'm trimming their nails. And my husband James would be like, honey, like they're in third, fourth grade, they can trim their own nails. And I'm like, the pinky, very tricky, the thumb, very difficult, you know? And so finally, I got to the point where it's like, okay, you know, Lucy, that's my youngest, you are responsible now for trimming your own nails and I won't do it anymore. But it's funny, like I would sneak around the house like when my husband wasn't watching and trim her nails because I just felt like I do a better job of this. And so, as moms, we need to realize someday our kids will go out of our house and they need to be able to trim their own nails.  So mama, you just got to back down. So, a lot of times it's we as moms that have to back away and say, you know what? I need to let them do this on their own because they are an adult and they're going to need this skill very soon.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:42 - 26:49) Okay, so it's don't ever do for your child what they can do for themselves. Is that the saying?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (26:49 - 26:50) Yes, that's the saying.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:51 - 26:56) Arlene, if people want to connect further, where can listeners find you online?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (26:57 - 27:22) They can find me on ArlenePellicane.com and I actually have a video series that goes with this book, Parents Rising, and I've designed it for a small group or for personal use so that each message is about 20 minutes long so you could watch the message and then you could have a discussion group with moms or with parents or by yourself. And so that's at ArlenePellicane.com and you can also find me on Instagram, Facebook and my podcast is called The Happy Home Podcast.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:23 - 27:41) Fantastic. We will link to all of these in our show notes and on our resources page of our website. We are called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so today, Arlene, we would love to know what is your savvy sauce?

 

Arlene Pellicane: (27:42 - 28:49) So my savvy sauce has to do with someone you have interviewed in the past, Clifford and Joyce Penner, and I interviewed them for my book 31 Days to a Happy Husband, and they talked about the 5 to 30 second kiss, the 5 to 30 second daily kiss to keep the pilot light lit between you and your spouse. So that is my savvy sauce is attempting the 5 to 30 second kiss every day. And I will tell you, you know, even I'm the author, ooh, I've been married 21 years. Wow, like we still have trouble with this so much so that my husband has literally printed out a page, put it on the refrigerator, and we put an X on every day that we do this. So, whenever we realize, well, we are not kissing regularly anymore, the chart goes up on the refrigerator and we start making Xs. And it was so funny because my daughter, my youngest, had asked like, what's that chart for? And she asked me in such a moment that I wasn't ready to make up a funny story about it. So, I just said, oh, it's a kissing chart for daddy and I. And she's just like, what? So that's our savvy sauce, the attempt of the 5 to 30 second kiss every day.

 

Laura Dugger: (28:49 - 28:58) I love your savvy sauce. And Arlene, it is always such a pleasure to get to spend time with you and learn from you. Thank you for being my guest.

 

Arlene Pellicane: (28:59 - 29:01) It's been my pleasure. It's been so fun. Thanks for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:02 - 32:44) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Gospel Truth for Salvation and Sanctification with Hunter Beless (Episode 287)

Titus 3:3-8 NIV “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Hunter Beless is an author of several children’s books including Read It, See It, Say It, Sing It! and Amy Carmichael: The Brown-Eyed Girl Who Learned to Pray. She is also a Bible teacher, co-author of Titus: Displaying the Gospel of Grace and the founder of Journeywomen Ministries, which empowers women to live out their faith through deep commitment to their local church. Hunter hosts the Journeywomen Podcast, sharing resources and insightful conversations with women of faith. She and her husband, Brooks, have four beautiful children, whom Hunter homeschools. You can find her on Instagram @hunterbeless, or at https://www.hunterbeless.com/books.

Journeywomen Podcast

 

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Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. What rhythms have been most profitable to you (spiritually, relationally, physically, and productively?) 

2. In your own home, how have you intentionally helped your children know and love God through Scripture? 

3. How is the Gospel useful for not only salvation, but also sanctification?

 

Similar Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

16 Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid

57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee

150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

166 Journey from Empty to Well Nourished Soul with Gretchen Saffles 

207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof

Special Patreon Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro

267 Apologetics with Ray Comfort

274 Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:11)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:16)

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.

 

My guest for today is Hunter Beless, and you may recognize her as the founder of Journey Women Ministries. She's also a podcaster and an author of multiple books, including this recent one, Jesus Loves You More. Hunter is going to share today about all things discipleship.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Hunter. 

 

Hunter Beless: (1:17 - 1:23) Thank you so, much for having me. I just love the concept of this show, and I'm excited to be here with you today. 

 

Laura Dugger: (1:23 - 1:56) Well, I've been looking so, forward to getting to chat with you. You've been on my list for years, so, I'm thankful this worked out. And even, it may have been years ago, but I heard you publicly share that you had chosen to put your faith in Christ in elementary school, I believe. But then as you transitioned into high school, you were open about then choosing to pursue the ways of the world. So, will you just speak to that experience and talk to that teenage girl who's currently facing some similar temptations? 

 

Hunter Beless: (1:56 - 6:39) Oh, that'd be such a privilege to get to speak to any young woman who is in a situation like this. I often think, like, if I would have just had one older friend who was encouraging me in the Lord, who would be willing to testify to God's grace in her life, and who would reach back and try and help me just to continue walking in the grace that he had extended to me through his son, like, I wonder if it would have gone differently for me, Laura. But, you know, the Lord did save me at a young age, and I lived fervently for him, loved God's word, even from a young age. 

 

And I remember, like, seeing groups of people that I wanted to like me, and wanting so, desperately to be accepted by them. But knowing that when I opened the pages of scripture, the Holy Spirit brought conviction to my heart in a way that would not allow me to act in accordance with the things that these groups were doing, in order to be approved of by them. And so, I thought to myself, "Well, maybe I'll just stop reading my Bible so, much." This is about eighth or ninth grade. And, you know, then I won't feel a sense of conviction when it comes to, like, these behaviors that I know I need to, you know, adapt to, in order to be approved of by the people that I deemed, you know, significant. And so, I set my Bible aside. 

 

And it's a really sad story. I mean, as I continued to spend time outside of God's word, I would still go to church with my family and things like that on Sunday mornings. But I just began to look less and less like a follower of Christ, and more and more like the world. And eventually, you know, I spent my entire duration of my high school years doing that. And I have to tell you; I just went back to my 20-year high school reunion. And there was a girl that I saw there. And she told me what a jerk I was in that season of my life. And it was such a wonderful thing to be reminded of what it looks like for me to not be walking in the Spirit, but to be walking in the flesh. And to really have to reckon with, that is what it looks like to be walking like the world. 

 

And I just told her, I said, "You know what, you're completely right." I said, "I was." I was totally looking out for my good and not for the good of others. I was absolutely living for myself and not for the Lord. But by God's grace, when it came time for my senior year of high school, he allowed me to get to the end of myself. And you would have thought, like, looking back, I had the resume, I had the 4.0, I had the salutatorian status, I was the president of my high school senior class. You would have thought, this girl's crushing it. But I had never been more anxious, more depressed, more insecure, more selfish, obviously, as testified to by the girl that I just referenced, than I was in that season of my life. 

 

And I remember I had a youth pastor who had just come into our church. And he said, "Hey," he said, "How's your time in the word looking?" And I said, "Well, I could either lie, or I could tell the truth." And I said, "You know, it's looking pretty, pretty bleak." And he said, "I just want to challenge you to get back in God's word." And at the same time, my dad had a tragic accident. It was a near death accident. And I was kind of reckoned with the brevity of life as a senior in high school. And I cried out to the Lord. And I said, "God, if you really are who you say you are, would you show me who you are through your word?" 

 

And that sparked, Laura, this passion for God's word. And it allowed me then to see the difference in my own life, what it looks like for Hunter to be walking without listening to the voice of God, and what it looked like for Hunter to have her face in her Bible, and to seek to live by God's word. And I tell you what, I probably don't look nearly as impressive by the world's standards. But the joy and the peace, and really just the transformation that the Lord has accomplished in my life through his word, is something that I cannot stop testifying to. And I just cannot encourage women enough, like if you are wrestling with the flesh, to get into God's word, because God works by the power of the Holy Spirit through his word in the lives of his people. And so, that's why really this whole passion has just overtaken my life for God's word. 

 

Laura Dugger: (6:40 - 6:59) Wow, that is incredible to hear that transformation, because God did it, and God can do it again. And God can do it for each one of us listening. But you are so passionate about discipling others. Can you first tell us, what were some of the significant ways that you've been discipled? 

 

Hunter Beless: (7:00 - 10:07) Yeah, well, I went to college, and that was the first time that I had ever really had someone seeking to do spiritual good in my life, outside of my parents. And really, even with my parents, like, you know, sitting down intentionally studying the word, that wasn't a part of our family culture. And so, when I went to college, there was a girl, her name was Meredith. And I remember, she sat down, and she taught me how to read my Bible, for really the very first time. I remember being confronted with some of the truths of scripture, Laura, and I'm like, "That's in the Bible? That disrupts me. Like, I didn't know that, you know?" And so, it was such a wonderful time, just of really kind of being confronted with my own theological ideas from my, you know, lack of ability and time to really understand the message of the text, you know, and then to really reevaluate that and be conformed to the text and to allow it to conform me. So, Meredith had a significant influence in my life in how to study the Bible. 

 

And then I had an older woman named Joyce, who at the time, I believe, was in her late 40s, maybe early 50s. And I just remember, Joyce found out that I began to memorize scripture. So, somewhere along the way, I realized, like, this book is so, significant that I need to start, you know, hiding scripture away in my heart. Some of that was just watching my own grandmother and seeing the way that the Lord had used scripture in her own life. And realizing, like, wow, if my grandmother has these truths hidden away in her heart for this season, and she had dementia, I need to start hiding scripture away in my heart, too. So, Joyce and I really, we started up a group on scripture memory. 

 

And I'll never forget the first time I met her, she said, "Hey, I heard you're starting to memorize Ephesians." I never finished. But she said, "Let's hear it." And so, she just opened up her Bible. And I just started quoting Ephesians. And one of Joyce's coined phrases that at the time I didn't realize was actually scripture itself, she would hold the Bible out in front of me. And she would say, "Hunter, this is no empty word for you, but your very life." And she had so many phrases like that, that I didn't even realize at the time, because I was pretty biblically illiterate, that were the words of scripture themselves. That's Deuteronomy 32:47. And Joyce really embodied that message for me, that scripture is that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. And so, watching her just live with her face in her Bible, proverbially speaking, and seeking to meditate on its truths and live by those day in and day out really transformed who I am even today. And she gave me a picture of what I'd like to look like years down the road. 

 

So, I've had various mentors, but those are some of the first. And the Lord definitely used them in significant ways to do spiritual good in my life. 

 

Laura Dugger: (10:08 - 10:36) And I don't know what kind of life those women lead if they're in public or more private disciplines, but their faithfulness, you just see the impact how it ripples out to bless generations. And even you, Hunter, you're leading this incredible ministry, where you disciple others through helping women know and love God through his word. So, will you share how you ended up getting to do this awesome work that you get to do today? 

 

Hunter Beless: (10:37 - 15:41) Oh, well, the beginnings of this, you would not have thought were awesome. And in fact, you and I were just chatting, and I still am recording out of my closet. And really, it's all just been an overflow of what the Lord has been doing in my own life. And I did feel like along the way, I just, I began to just love learning from older women. And I do think that's a biblical, like scriptural kind of practice. You look at Titus 2, you see the older women are to teach the younger women what is good. I was a younger woman who loved learning from older women. And so, I had this, over the years, this just long list of women who had invested in me who had, you know, testified to God's grace in their life, who had taught me the scriptures. 

 

And when my husband Brooks and I were in the military, we found ourselves on post. And just due to the transiency of a military lifestyle, the churches around military installations tend to be a little bit tired, sometimes depleted, because people in the military are moving so, frequently. So, it's hard, right, to have continuity to see people through in their discipling process and all of that. And so, I really missed those mentors that I'd had from college, and the year after college, after coming into marriage. And so, I thought to myself, like, man, I want the other women. I was also interfacing with either believers or non-believers who really had never been discipled. And I thought, man, I just wish I could get you with Joyce, or I wish I could get you with Meredith. I wish I could connect you, you know, with X, Y, or Z woman from the past couple of years. 

 

And so, I thought, I also simultaneously was listening to a lot of podcasts because I was super lonely. Just because, you know, moving into a new culture, and then my husband was gone at least 50% of the time for training or deployment. And so, I'd be walking along the military installation listening to like sermon audio, like John Piper or Timothy Keller or whatever. And I thought, man, I wish that there was a conversational podcast about theology for women that would just be more warm and kind of like what we're doing right now. And my husband was like, "Well, you should start it." And so, I just started with the women who had mentored me. If you go back to the very beginning of the podcast, it's truly like my college roommates. It's my mentors from Pine Cove Christian Camps where Brooks and I met. 

 

And I think I just by God's grace, the podcasting network was so, small at the time. I remember Journey Women landed in the number two spot right behind Joel Osteen whenever the thing launched. And so, then from there, it just gave the podcast some notoriety, which is what then allowed, you know, some of the names that you would recognize to reach out and to say, "Hey, you know, could we come on the podcast?" And at the time, I had no knowledge of, you know, how to market people marketing books or any of that Bible studies, etc. And yeah, it was a really fun season, actually, because it was pre-COVID. And you know, people weren't used to doing a whole lot online. And so, had some really, really fun conversations. And along the way, the Lord has helped me to hone in more of a vision of what I'm doing. Because at first, it was just like, let's get in the closet and have like fun, intentional conversations that I could share with my girlfriends or with maybe the military spouse that I'm meeting on the playground that I may never see again, you know. 

 

And then along the way, people started even wanting to donate to the podcast and different things like that. And I thought, I really need to have a clearer aim. And so, now, you know, over the past eight years, the Lord has given us this mission to help women know and love God through his word, to find their hope in the gospel and to invest deeply in their local churches as they go out on mission for the glory of God. And some of that came and Laura, I'm sure you face this from women really seeking out discipling online, and us realizing we can't disciple you. Like, we cannot come alongside you and help you to grow in godliness, you know, but we can do that via the interwebs. But the degree to which we're able to do that is super-duper limited. And so, what does it look like for us then to equip women so, that then they would be encouraged to seek out fellowship in the local church, and to be investing their time, energy and talents in the local church. And so, that's become kind of our resounding gong at Journey Women over the years, just because we really do believe that ministry happens best in the context of the local church. And that's something that the Lord has validated through seeing women reaching out online and realizing like, hey, we could never, you know, provide what they need. But God in his grace has given us the local body that is able to do that. 

 

Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 19:08) So, well said, because this is a great place that we can meet people anytime what is most convenient for them with a podcast. But then also, so, that's great for sowing seeds. But there's nothing that replaces that embodied relationship. And it just makes me think of God that he created us that way. And he knew it because Jesus even being embodied, little baby sent to earth, so, nothing replaces that. And, Hunter, I just I love hearing about your public ministry and the way the Lord has blessed and grown it. 

 

And now a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE/MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything. And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home, and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Miss Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. 

 

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I'd also love to hear a little bit more about your personal life. So, what does a day in the life look like for Hunter Beless? 

 

Hunter Beless: (19:09 - 21:25) Well, I think if somebody joined me in a day in a life, in this season, Laura, I feel like I'm too busy. I have committed to too much. And so, what it looks like practically, it's going to be a lot of time running from this or that event and just trying to do the things that I committed to before or some of the other things that the Lord has allowed in my life came to fruition. But just leaning into him for the grace that I need moment by moment, you know, and trusting that he is the same and that he has provided all of the grace that I need. His grace is sufficient for me, you know, as I'm running errands and facing the temptation to feel anxious or overwhelmed that, you know, I think it's Luke 12, where it's talking about how I can't even add a moment, not even the smallest amount of time to my life by worrying. So, I'm just going to entrust all of this to the Lord. 

 

So, for me, I wonder how many women are listening to this and that they can relate to this because I talked to various people who they don't have a podcast, but they don't have the same work as me, but they feel that same temptation towards anxiety and the feelings of overwhelms that we all face, you know, and yeah, I think my life probably looks a lot like many of y'all's. And for me, it's just the constant meditation on scripture and just rehearsing the truths of God's word that are never changing, even in the midst of my ever-changing and chaotic circumstances. So, it doesn't seem to change even if I do a better job, which I could have done, planning my schedule or, you know, prayerfully considering the commitments that I made, but just resting and knowing that he is unchanging and that he is ever-present and that he is all-knowing and that he has provided everything that I need and his son. 

 

So, that is what it looks like. Every day looks different, but again, leaning into the truths of God's word, meditating on those truths, rehearsing those truths over and over, and resting in the grace that the gospel provides. That's the thing that never changes. 

 

Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 22:06) And I love that overview because if we look from the outside, you're homeschooling, you run this ministry, you have a podcast, and you're cooking healthy recipes for your family, but I'm sure do you also have weekly patterns? Because to me, it's a stewardship issue. You've been faithful with little, it sounds like, so, he has given you the opportunity to be faithful in much, and it's a season of much where you've written books and produced all this content. So, do you have a system in place or rhythms throughout the week that have helped you live that full, abundant life? 

 

Hunter Beless: (22:06 - 24:19) Yeah, that's a really good question. Obviously, the weekly rhythm that we always start with is worshiping with the saints on Sunday. I look forward to that like no other. And we are in a church that the Lord is just so, gracious to have provided a pastor who prioritizes the preaching of the word and who is consistently proclaiming the gospel from the pulpit. And so, Laura, on the weeks where I feel like I have been so, busy that I have not spent the time in God's word that I would desire, just the recognition that going to church on a Sunday is such a blessing to get to receive God's word. And so, there have been many times that I just show up and I'm just like, "Thank you, Lord." Thank you for the provision of your word. Thank you for the provision of the body of Christ. And so, Sundays are just like a non-negotiable for us. We go to church on Sundays. And then, you know, we have various things. My kids are actually homeschooled on two days out of the week or three days out of the week. And then, they go to school two days. So, we do like a university model is what it's called.

And so, on the three days that they are home, I am full tilt homeschooling, doing everything home-related. 

 

And in fact, I have had to learn that part of their education is also helping care for our home. And so, we really see it as a team effort to keep the home, like, tidy and running and functioning well, so that we can, you know, spend as much time in it as we do, like, with happy hearts. And then, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I typically am in this closet working while the children are at school. Saturdays, we rest together as a family. We spend a lot of time outdoors. I also make bread regularly. And I think there's something liturgical for me about making bread. And, like, when everything else feels, like, a little bit chaotic and out of my control, the beauty of just doing a simple task like making bread to provide food for my family and nourishment is something that really brings me great joy. So, Saturdays are also bread-making days. And then, the week begins again. That is awesome. 

 

Laura Dugger: (24:19 - 24:41) I love hearing that. And it makes me curious to go even a little bit further. I'll give you a few categories, but I'd love to hear what rhythms in these categories have been most profitable to you. So, when you think of it spiritually, physically, relationally, and just productively, how you stay creatively fresh. 

 

Hunter Beless: (24:41 - 28:24) Yeah. You know, spiritually for me, and I'm a mother of, like, young children, right? So, my kids are ranging from age 11 to age 3. I would say we're still in a season in which sleep is a little bit unpredictable, particularly in those early waking hours. But I do my very best to try and get in God's Word first. And that is not because I want to check it off the list, but because I need the people in my home and beyond. So, really trying to just orient myself rightly to the truths of God's Word first thing is huge. I also do try to work out. So, that gets to the physical piece. I neglected working out for many years. I actually, hilariously, was a personal trainer when we were back in the military. And that was kind of my gig while Brooks was gone. And so, I know how to work out, and I enjoy working out. But with the children, it has been a difficult thing for me to prioritize. But just this last year, I got, this is the most, like, basic thing ever. I got a Peloton. I bought it secondhand off of Marketplace. And it has just been a wonderful way for me to sweat and exercise my body first thing in the morning without, you know, really requiring a whole lot. I don't have to leave the house. I don't have to go outside or anything, because Brooks does travel quite a bit still for work. And so, I try to ride the Peloton. Doesn't always happen. Happens less than it does, than I want for it to, but it does help. 

 

And then, yeah, relationally is really, that's a really good question. I think one thing that the Lord has blessed me with, having lived a season of extreme transiency, right? So, we did eight years of military. And then, we did two years at, you know, university where Brooks got his MBA. And now, we're in our first, like, what we would call, like, a civilian kind of location, where he's got his first civilian job. We're almost 15 years deep into marriage now. And so, all of the friendships that I made along those eight years of moving almost annually. I think we moved, like, six or seven times in eight years. Yeah, just trying to maintain those relationships. I only have one or two from each duty station, but I love using Voxer or Voice Memo to keep in touch with people who have known me for, you know, a longer time. And that's just one thing that's really fun. I have to be careful not to let that overtake my time on my phone, but I do love to keep in touch with old friends. And they are some of the friends that the Lord has used just really to help me navigate the various challenges that we face, right, in life and relationally in marriage and all of that. 

 

So, anyways, and relationally in marriage, Brooks and I were really just relishing in the friendship that God has given us with one another. I don't think it's been easy over the years, especially with all of the transiency and all of the deployments and all of the many moves that we've faced. But God has really just given us a true appreciation for one another. And to begin to see now, 15 years into marriage, that the differences that He has given each of us are a gift to help us be conformed into the image of His Son. So, that's some of it, spiritually, physically, relationally. Did I miss anything? 

 

Laura Dugger: (28:25 - 28:32) Just even productively as you're creating content, how do you stay creatively inspired and fresh? 

 

Hunter Beless: (28:33 - 30:55) Yeah, I love, my friend Gretchen Stoffels has a lot of wonderful things to say about this. She talks a lot about producing from the overflow and not the undertow. And that's ministered to me over the years. I find a lot of times when I am not creatively fresh, it's either because I'm overproducing or because I'm not honestly spending, most of what I do is all revolving around God's Word. So, it's like if I'm not spending time in God's Word and allowing myself to just be struck anew with truths from the text, then what do I have to share? So, that helps me too in knowing when am I overcommitted? Because if I don't have time then to be relishing in God's Word, not for the sake of producing something, but just like you said, just being struck and wonder by who God is, then I really need to reevaluate the commitments that I'm making and slow things down a bit. And so, that's kind of what has helped me to protect that time with the Lord so that then I would have something to offer others. 

 

And I don't just think about it in terms of producing a podcast or writing a book or sending out a newsletter. I mean, honestly, even with the children, this has been something that I've been thinking about for the last six to eight months. If I want them to understand how God's Word informs all of life, then I need to be with my face in my Bible because who is it that they spend the most time with, right? All throughout their life. Like, it's me. And so, I get to then help them realize like, oh, here is how Scripture applies to all these different circumstances. But if I don't spend time in God's Word, then I've got nothing to give. And I have a friend who was a missionary actually in a remote country with the IMB. And I asked her, I said, "How did you ever evangelize with people in this remote context from this different religion and all of this?" And she said, "You know what, I just had to be so, filled up with God's Word that that's what came out." And I think about that all the time. So, when I'm feeling dry, I'm like, "Oop, oop, that's a good sign. I need to go back to God's Word." 

 

Laura Dugger: (30:56 - 31:07) I love that. And let's go there then in your own home. How have you intentionally helped your children to know and to love God through Scripture? 

 

Hunter Beless: (31:09 - 33:52) This is going to sound really selfish, but, you know, this whole endeavor, right, I've realized the significance of God's Word in my own life. And so, I'm constantly thinking, Laura, like, how am I going to get into God's Word? You know, like, that's, it sounds selfish. But if I really believe that I need God's Word for all of life, I'm going to have to figure out how am I going to get that in. And then it's wonderful because I get to bring the children along in that. So, maybe that's just like a fresh take on it, right? Because we're always thinking as mothers, like, how can we be investing in our children more heavily in all of these things? And I think those are good and right desires. Obviously, Deuteronomy speaks to that. You know, we're supposed to teach our children diligently the ways of the Lord. But I think it's just so refreshing when we come to the text as learners, as co-learners. And so, for me, I'm just always thinking, like, how can we learn together who God's Word is? How can we worship the Lord together in our home? 

 

And then it helps me see those times, right, when you are offering instruction to the children, when you are being intentional about, you know, for us, we do, like, catechesis, for example, which is a series of questions and answers just to help disseminate doctrinal truths and help the children learn, like, here are, you know, foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. Then I'm not just like, "Okay, who is God? You know, God is the Spirit." I'm, like, thinking about the things that we're learning in a way where I also am seeking to learn as well. And I think that just gives a posture of humility, too. Like, as a parent, where it's not like, "You gotta learn your Bible verse this week, kid." You know, it's like, "We get to, we get to, look, we get to learn God's Word together, you know?" And then that helps them understand the joy of learning God's Word. And it also gives them a very real picture of a parent who's being transformed by the truths of God's Word. What better witness is there? And so, really, I've stopped seeing it as, "Hey, here's our time," you know, which we do have. 

 

And practically, for us, a lot of that happens around the table because I've realized that, like, when children are well-fed, when they have something to do with their hands, they may be a little bit more prone to, like, have open ears, ready to hear, you know, instruction. But we do have those rhythms kind of in place, but I don't want it to be relegated to those rhythms. I want it to be all of life. I want us to understand it doesn't just mean we're gonna sit here over breakfast and do our Bible reading for the day. This is something that is really going with us through the day because we need it not just for this moment, but for all of life. 

 

Laura Dugger: (33:53 - 35:38) You draw so much wisdom there, and I think especially that it's not an either-or, having that set-aside rhythm and time, or just hoping it'll be incorporated into all of life. But it's both.

 

I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Henrichsen from Episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so, that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button, or our mailing address, for sending checks that are tax-deductible, so, that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today.

 

Even going back to the heart of this conversation of discipleship, Hunter, how do you think the local church, and especially older women in the community, can play a vital role in encouraging young people to love Scripture? 

 

Hunter Beless: (35:40 - 39:34) You know, I love this question, and I just, I cannot overemphasize the value of older women who love God's Word in the church enough. You know, I think in the culture, we're hearing and seeing that, you know, it's not good to grow old. I mean, that's being perpetuated by all of the Instagram ads that we receive, and by seeing shiny faces that look like they haven't aged one bit. And I'm like, "No, God's Word says that women, older women in particular, have tremendous value in the family of God." And so, I think I want older women just to realize, like, we need you. And in fact, no one is exempt. No woman is exempt from the Titus 2 mandate to teach the younger women what is good. And how do we know what's good? Well, we know God alone is good. And because God is good, we know His Word is good. And if you don't have any clue, like how to reach back and invest in the next generation, I have great news for you. All you need is God's Word. 

 

So, I mean, the littlest learners, the children in the community, I think they are the most gracious recipients of anybody in our community, you know, just when it comes to God's Word. And so, look for ways that you can encourage the younger people in your sphere of influence, in your local church, with God's Word. And often I think that just starts with maybe even meditating on one verse. You know, it can be that simple. Or for me, one way that I want to encourage, you know, the children in my life with God's Word is by identifying ways that I see God working in their lives and naming it. I mean, how encouraging would that be if an older saint in the church said, "Hey, you know, I don't know, my oldest daughter's name is Hadley. Hey, Hadley, like, I see God working in you. You are showing kindness, you know, to the other children in the church. Thank you so much for that. And I'm just praising God for the work he's doing in your life," you know. 

 

But I think in order for them to do that, right, they have to be willing to be inconvenienced by being around the children. And we just had a sermon on this, a wonderful sermon from the book of Mark about Jesus saying, "Let the little children come to me." And so, I think just realizing that Jesus himself, right, he was unbothered. He delighted in the presence of children. So, I think in our older age, you know, especially after you have young kids and you've done all of your time, you know, investing in the next generation in that way, just realizing that there is value in serving in kids' ministry or children's ministry in the church and just getting around the children to be able to give yourself the opportunity to know them in a way where you can meet them with the truths of God's Word. It could also be just having younger families in your home. And I know that can be such an inconvenience. I mean, we're a hot mess. We are so chaotic. And I know, you know, you even have to consider the breakables. Like, you got to protect those, you know, when we come into the house. But figure out, like, what does hospitality look like where we can welcome in younger children, the families with younger children in the home, seek to encourage the parents. I mean, truly, Laura, what else are we doing here? Like, we have been given two things. We have been given the mission of evangelizing and discipling. And that message is the same. 

 

At the heart of both of those things is the gospel. The gospel is for salvation and for sanctification. And so, if you're an older person in the church, keep meditating on the gospel. Keep, you know, seeking to disseminate the truths of the gospel to everybody around you. And remember, the littlest of these, I think, are the most eager learners. And it's such a great opportunity. 

 

Laura Dugger: (39:36 - 39:52) Goodness, I love that. And as you say, disseminate these truths of the gospel for both salvation and sanctification. Can you even share clearly what is that gospel that applies to everyone? 

 

Hunter Beless: (39:53 - 43:58) Oh, yes. I mean, this is the good news that I continually am rehearsing over and over and over again. I think for me, you know, I realized as a young child that the gospel was for salvation, right? That I love the Titus 3. You know, I just wrote this Bible study on Titus with Courtney Docter. If you don't have, like, a great comprehensive kind of gospel text that you've got in your back pocket, I think Titus 3:3-7 is a wonderful text to commit to memory. It says, "So, we are sinners." Romans 3:23. You know, we were created by God to glorify him. And yet, we have chosen to glorify ourselves. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So, we too were once foolish. I think it's easy to see that when you really think about your life. You know, like, even me testifying to my life in high school. We too were once foolish. There's no getting around that. But we too, let me see, where am I now? "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us," "not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy," So, how does he save us? Well, he sent his son, Jesus. When did the kindness of God our Savior appear? Well, it appeared over 2,000 years ago. In a stable in Bethlehem. When, like you said, God sent his son to live a perfect life. And then he gave his life on the cross so, that we might have right relationship with God. He saved us. Not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy, "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." 

 

So, when, and by the way, he rose from the grave. Let's see, is that in here? I don't know. But let's see. That one's not in this particular gospel text of Titus 3:3-7. But we know that from the gospels, right? That Jesus Christ died on the cross. And that he rose again three days later. Overcoming death. So, that we too might not have to experience eternal death. We get to experience eternal life. When we turn from our sin and trust in him. And that's when that washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit happens. We're filled with the spirit. He's poured out his spirit on us. Verses 6 and 7 says, "whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." And so, I think part of what it looks like for us to live with that hope of eternal life. Is to constantly be reflecting upon who we were apart from Christ. Who we are in Christ. And who we will be when we one day see Christ again. Face to face. And so, that for me is what it looks like. Just to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel. 

 

Even when I was talking earlier, Laura, about feeling overwhelmed. The temptation for me then is to feel down on myself. And to wrestle with shame. Because I've over committed, right? But I'm rehearsing the truths of the gospel to myself in that moment. And saying, "Okay. Yes, could I have planned my schedule better? Yes, could I have done all these things? But you know what? I, by God's grace, get instead to rest in the grace that the gospel provides for me in this moment. Knowing that with all these various responsibilities, I am not going to be executing them perfectly. But he has perfectly accomplished my salvation on the cross. And so, I can rest in his son. Knowing that my salvation is not based on my perfect performance. But on the performance of Christ." And that then again helps me then to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel, like I said, is not just for that moment of salvation or justification. When we're saved from our sins and made right with God. But it's also for every moment of every day. Because we need it all the time. At least I do. 

 

Laura Dugger: (44:00 - 44:20) Yes, absolutely. And I think we can hear that or repeat that so, often. But I love how you unpack it. Because especially for those who have been saved. When they rely on the gospel for sanctification. Can you give any more examples of what that looks like? Specifically for sanctification after the salvation? 

 

Hunter Beless: (44:21 - 46:35) Yeah. I think it's just coming to a greater understanding of our desperate need for Jesus. And then as we rely on him more wholly. I think we're conformed even more into the image of his son. Just after that gospel hymn in Titus 3. Verse 8 says, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works." So, what is sanctification? Well, sanctification is growing in godliness. Or said another way, it's growing in good works. Right? So, we're not saved because of our good works. We're saved by the gospel so, that then we can produce good works. By God's grace. That's the sanctification process. And so, how does that happen? Well, verse 8 tells us, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things." What does it want us to insist on? It wants us to insist then on the contents of the gospel from Titus 3:3-7. So, we need to, in order to grow in our ability to do good to others. What do we do? We insist on the gospel. 

 

And how does that work? Well, when I am feeling, again, overbooked, overwhelmed. And somebody comes into my life that needs service. If I'm functioning by the world's wisdom, what am I going to say? "You know what? I just don't have the margin for that. I can't do that. I need to protect my time." But if I'm looking at the gospel, what do I see? Well, I see what Christ died for me. Was that act of service self-protective in any way? No. So, what does it look like for me then to lay down my life for the good of another? And that's how the gospel then informs our living in such a way that we begin to grow by God's grace, not by our own effort, in godliness. So, I think that's how the sanctification process kind of works itself out. 

 

Laura Dugger: (46:35 - 46:54) Thank you so much for sharing that. And you've taught us already so, much in this time together. But you've also written a book recently for children. Can you tell us a little bit more about it and share the lasting truths that you want to impart to children who get to read or listen to your book? 

 

Hunter Beless: (46:55 - 49:47) Yeah. I think it started for me with really thinking about what are those kinds of scriptural, biblical truths that I want to offer to the children in these everyday moments like we've been talking about. My son, I already shared, he's been struggling with sleep for the last year or so,. And he'll come tumbling down the stairs in the middle of the night. And my initial reaction to that is to want to say, "It's okay. Mommy's here." Right? And that's true. And I do think that offers some temporal comfort. And it is a good thing for a mother to be present in the time of a child's need. But thinking more deeply, I began to say, "Buddy, God is with you. You have no need to fear." And the reason for that is because I started thinking about, well, what if mommy wasn't here? What if I wasn't able to be here? And some of that came just from having lost my own father in the last few years to cancer spontaneously. And just thinking, like, what are the lasting truths that I then want to impart to my children when I'm no longer able to be present? So, it is true. It's comfort that mommy is here in your time of need. But also, even when mommy's not able to be here, remember, God is with you always. 

And it's been such an encouragement for me then to even see him, like, on the playground and his little buddy will get hurt. And he'll turn and he'll tell his buddy, like, "It's okay. God's with you." You know what I'm thinking? "That's so, good. Like, this is the kind of stuff that I want to be just ingrained within the children so, that their initial reaction is, 'It's okay. God is with me.'" Similarly, the message that is repeated throughout the book is, "Jesus Loves You More". And that was really instigated from one of my children requesting for me to say over and over again this popular phrase that we've all heard, "I love you to the moon and back." And I started thinking, like, "Okay, that's true. I do. I love you to the moon and back. I love you to the, you know, mountaintop and to the ocean floor. I love you as far as the east is from the west. But there is one who loves you even more than I ever could. And in fact, when my love fails you, His never will." And so, I wanted to get that. 

 

If there's one message that I want my kids to know, it's that. It's that Jesus loves them so, much that he went all the way to the cross at Calvary and gave his very life so, that they could be made right with God. So, that's the message that I hope kids will take away from the book. I do hope that it inspires parents to think about what are those lasting truths that they want to impart to their kids. And I hope it equips them then to be able to share what I believe as Christian parents is the most important message we could ever give. 

 

Laura Dugger: (49:48 - 49:54) I just want to acknowledge too, I'm so, sorry for the sudden loss of your father in recent years. 

 

Hunter Beless: (49:55 - 50:19) Well, thank you. Yeah, it's, you know, my kids were just saying as we were hiking this last weekend, they're like, "We miss puppy." But we're like, I'm at a point now where I did go through many years of grief, missing him, you know, all of this. But just relishing in the fact that he's in the presence of the Lord Jesus. And I am just so grateful because he's in a much better place. So, I'm looking forward to the day that I get to join him there. Amen. 

 

Laura Dugger: (50:20 - 50:28) Well, Hunter, you've already given us so much, but where can we go to continue being discipled by you after this conversation? 

 

Hunter Beless: (50:30 - 51:14) Well, if you like conversations like this, you know, I infrequently show up at Journey Women. We used to do a weekly show and then it turned to bi-weekly and now we're seasonal. But I do love having conversations just like this. And I hope that, you know, just as our conversation today, I hope it encourages women just to get together, like you said, with women in their local context to open up God's word. And just to go deeper, relationally, conversationally, to come together around the truths of God's word. You've asked such great questions, Laura. And I think take some of these questions and ask your friends and see where the Lord guides those conversations. I think that'll just be such a blessing. It's been a blessing to meet and chat with you today. 

 

Laura Dugger: (51:15 - 51:32) Well, I've loved every minute. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. And so, as my final question for you today, Hunter, what is your Savvy Sauce? 

 

Hunter Beless: (51:34 - 52:28) Oh, you try to nail me down to something practical. It's funny, Laura, because I feel like I resist practical. And I'm not sure what it is about me that resists practical other than maybe sometimes I felt like bound in by people's practical advice. Does that make sense? And so, for me, here's my practical advice. My practical advice is to allow all of your practices or your practicals to be informed by the principles of the text. So, allow the principles of scripture to inform your practice. And that's not very practical, but I think the only practical way you can do that is to get your face in your Bible and to really seek to know and love God through his word. And then he will certainly help inform your practice. 

 

Laura Dugger: (52:30 - 56:34) I think that's actually more practical than you realize. That is wonderful. And Hunter, your joy and your laugh are just contagious. And you're clearly gifted from the Lord as a clear, articulate communicator. And it blesses so, many people in so many generations because you are able to filter in the truth and then communicate it in a way that's able to be received. So, it's been so encouraging to sit under your teaching and be inspired to take this out and to hopefully begin in our home. But also, those good works, as we're called as older women, too. None of us are exempt, as you said. So, I've just thoroughly enjoyed being with you. Thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun.

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Parenting 0-18 With an Eternal Perspective: An Interview with Jessica Smartt (Episode 286)

Hebrews 12:11 NIV “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it"

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Jessica Smartt is the author of Come On Home, Memory-Making Mom and Let Them Be Kids. She graduated college with an English degree, a religion minor and a hankering to pour into kids. After teaching middle school literature for five years, she was promoted to her current position and dream job: wife, homeschooling mom, author, and Professional Encourager of Intentional Moms. She lives in sunny North Carolina on a family farm with horses, chickens, and an ever-increasing number of beloved cats. She and her husband, Todd, have three beautiful children. She loves to energize everyday moms to save childhood and build close-knit families. Jessica’s favorites include: bike rides, spinach quiche, a clean kitchen, being warm, national parks, and food that anyone else made. Connect with Jessica through Instagram or her website.

 

Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. What questions can we ask ourselves as mothers to take inventory and get real about our capacity, health, and gifts?
2. How can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be and we do too?
3. Will you share a handful of your other favorite practical tips for building a strong family that we haven’t covered yet?

 

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:14)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:15 - 1:23) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.

 

My returning guest for today is Jessica Smartt. She has authored another brilliant book entitled, Come On Home: A Grace-Filled Guide to Raising a Family Who Loves (and Likes) Each Othe. You're not going to want to miss a minute of this episode because she answers every question with kindness and eternal wisdom, yet she still manages to share plenty of fun ideas and applicable tips.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jessica.

 

Jessica Smartt: (1:25 - 1:28)  Thanks so, much for having me. I'm excited about our conversation.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:29 - 1:44) Well, I've been looking so, forward to this, and it's been a few years since you were a guest on The Savvy Sauce, so, as you're looking back, can you just walk us through how your motherhood experience has changed from the early days to now currently?

 

Jessica Smartt: (1:46 - 3:36) Yeah, it has changed so, much, and I actually was thinking about this just on my own. God is so, good, and I don't know if everyone's experience is kind of like this. I look around and see very high-functioning young mothers, so, I'm thinking maybe not, but I just feel like those first couple years were such a struggle with a lot of mental illness and just anxiety, and probably that led into depression, too, and just feeling really overwhelmed. I do feel like a lot of it was sleep deprivation, which is a literal torture technique that armies use, so, I think just caring for my body better has actually been a huge thing, but also just God is just so, kind, and I think I mentioned in the book of just really early on having this moment where I thought I'm not any good to anybody, and I didn't fast-forward to see any of this, right?  I didn't know how it was going to end. I just knew I felt terrible, and I couldn't function and overcome with anxiety, and everything was blurry and overwhelming, and so, to then fast-forward and see personally in my own life the rewards of my kids are doing well, and I like being a mom a lot, and professionally that I'm even writing about it is stunning, so, it's a real redemption story to me, and just proof that also God uses those pits because it was out of that that I was able to actually gain traction even on my blog sharing about my personal experience and loss and weakness. God used that, so, I'm really grateful.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:45) That's incredible to get just a little picture of that journey, and can you update us with your kids' ages now as of today?

 

Jessica Smartt: (3:45 - 3:59) Yes, so, I have a 16-year-old boy. Last week we were visiting college, and that is very weird, and then a 14-year-old boy and an 11-year-old daughter.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:00 - 4:19) Okay, wonderful. So, regardless of what phase we're in as parents, do you have any recommendations for questions that we can begin to ask ourselves so that we can take inventory and get real about our capacity and our health and our gifts?

 

Jessica Smartt: (4:20 - 7:00) Right, yes, so, in Come on Home, that's kind of how I kick it off because I say, you know, you can't have the family that if in order to have the family you want or the home you want, you have to be honest about what you actually have and what you're starting with, and so, part of that is taking inventory of yourself and your life, and that's not something we often stop to do in the chaos and busyness, so, I asked what your capacity is and really just trying to help mom just think through preaching to myself here, like all the things that are on our plate, and is there something on our plate that the Lord maybe is not calling us to or that doesn't correlate and match to what our really core values are in life, and those are hard questions to ask, but they actually bring a lot of relief to just be honest with yourself about what's happening in your life and coming before the Lord and saying, you know, I'd literally say, like, make a list of all the things that you're doing and look at it and see if you should take any off, and the list is, you know, stunningly long for a lot of us, but yeah, so, that's just capacity, just kind of thinking through where we are and what we actually have the bandwidth to do, and then I talk about health and actually asking, like, your husband, if you're married, you know, how would you like me to care for myself better? What's one thing that you like when I do? And a lot of times I think we're really surprised when we hear the things they appreciate or what they'd like us to do, and they might just be giving us a really wonderful gift to go invest in an area in our life that we've been overlooking. So, and then gifts, that's a really fun one, too, because I'm not you and you're not me, and we're not the listeners, but God has uniquely equipped all of us to be the mom and the homemaker, you know, in our particular callings.

 

So, saying, like, are you a good organizer? Are you, you know, the fun mom, right, that I wish I was and I'm not? Are you, you know, the adventurer mom? Are you the crafty mom? You know, God has given, do you cook well and, you know, enjoy that? And everybody has a gift, that you're, whether you're, you know, a soft place to land for your kids and a good listener, or you're, you know, more drill sergeant-y, like those firstborns tend to be, and that is me, so, that's why I can say that. But just thinking about, like, what skills and gifts did God give me to lead my family well? And so, that was just kind of the ground-tilling up work before you think through, like, how can we build the family that we really want with the life that we actually have and the person we really are?

 

Laura Dugger: (7:01 - 8:14) And I love, that was one of the aspects of the book that I just appreciated. You sprinkle all these insightful questions throughout, and it is really great to reflect on those with the Lord or with the journal or in conversation, but you're encouraging us repeatedly to get a long-term vision of this parenting journey. And so, it makes me think, my husband works with Chick-fil-A, and oftentimes he's encouraged to be careful not to just get caught up working in the business, but to pull back and work on the business, and it's actually better for everybody. And I just think as parents, we need that same reminder to kind of lift up our eyes, get a different view, and get above these urgent, incessant needs of today and look at where we're going. And I think the Bible speaks a lot to that with being prudent. And you challenge us with that long-term view to actually take an eternal view in parenting, which is inevitably going to impact how we steward our time and our decision making. So, can you speak to both of those?

 

Jessica Smartt: (8:16 - 10:23) Yeah, I mean, the eternal, the perspective, I think I said, you know, there's the Bible verse about you reap what you sow, and we think of it as like a cautionary warning. And it is, but it's also just a true statement of how life works, meaning what you invest in, and what you spend your time in, what you care about, what the things you're actually doing is where you're going to see growth. And so, if I am investing in my home, I'm going to see fruit in there. Now, of course, it's not a one-to-one, it's not a slot machine. So, you know, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like. And God is so, good to cover up even over the areas that we've done a bad job in. But in general, you can't expect to grow cucumbers if you've been planting tomatoes. Like what you've been planting in the ground is what's going to grow up. And so, that's just like, even though it's kind of like fancy wordy language, it's always just a good reminder to me to think like, what am I actually spending my time doing?

 

I want a family that, like I was a recipient of, that's warm and inviting and you want to be around. And in order to get that, like you have to plant it. And so, that's a lot of being present as a mom and which is so, hard, very hard. But I just wanted to not lay a burden on moms, but really just encourage them like, do those things that are going to reap the life you actually want in the long term.  And of course, you mentioned the word eternity, that's planning, building disciples. And so, that is a very long road. You know, you're not going to always see the fruit of that, you know, immediately. But keeping our eye on, you know, I want to raise kids that are living out the calling that God has placed on their lives and are going out into this world to be truth and light. Like, oh my goodness, so, many hard, boring conversations that you have to have, but you have to, like that's, that's part of the equation.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:26 - 11:35) I think that even that piece is with discipline too, which is one of my least favorite parts of parenting. I don't know if others relate to that, but a verse that I find so, encouraging is Hebrews 12:11, that "no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful later on. However, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." And so, I love that encouragement you're giving to a parent for the long view, and you bring up your family of origin. You write so much about this gratitude you have for your parents and something you wrote really stuck with me where you say someone was always home, both physically and metaphorically, someone was paying attention. So, Jessica, what caution do you want to share with any parents today who may be tempted to let go a little too early, a little too soon and too young, whether that's with technology or even just being physically present?

 

Jessica Smartt: (11:36 - 14:25) I think it's just so, important for moms and dads to receive their instructions, not from the world, but from the Lord, because the culture right now is okaying and even encouraging parenting that is not godly parenting. We have so many distractions and we are pulled towards our phones, towards our own personal growth and flourishing, which is okay. You know, of course we want us to be healthy as we just mentioned, but at the expense of the kids that God has put in our lives, that is what, that is the messaging you're going to receive from the world. If you're hanging out with people who do not have a biblical worldview, that is going to be how they're spending their time.  And it's not a judgment statement. It's just, it is an observation that they, that is not, the focus is not, I'm going to sit and, you know, maybe at one point culturally years and years ago, it really was more family oriented, but it is not anymore.  It just simply is not. And, you know, it masquerades under that as, you know, oh, we're all going to the soccer game together and we're going to go watch the gymnastics performance or whatever it is. But that, that is not always true discipling of your children.

 

That's kind of being present in a cursory way and not truly and really, to really pay attention and really be present with your kids is going to look vastly different than what the rest of the world is doing.  And if it doesn't, you got to check. And I, I'm saying this as absolutely of myself, you know, there are moms that are just on their phone, and I can do that as well. I've had to put in, we can talk about specifics, but I've had to put in like specific things in my, in my actual phone, you know, and in my life parameters and guidelines so that I'm not doing that. But no one in the world is going to tell you not to, that's normal to just be stuck on your phone as a mom, as a kid, whatever. And so, a like, where are you getting your voice? That's saying how to parent, who are the voices that are speaking into your life?  Are you listening to older and wiser mentors? Are you reading really good books? Are you putting yourself in the word first thing in the morning or are you just floating around with whatever culture says to do? And I don't mean to sound judgy here because I am deeply convicted even as I'm speaking this of like, am I living this? I'm not always, it's very, very hard. But I just think we first, first step is, you know, to orient yourself to the Lord and how would he have you parent?  Not what is everyone else okay with doing? Cause it's going to look very different.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:26 - 16:54)  Okay. I love that with kind of the emphasis on; it does require a sacrifice from us with that quality and quantity time. And it makes me think on page 38 of your book, you encourage us to take the time to know each child, helping them find their passion, abilities, gifts, and interests.  And that really does bless both the child and the parent. And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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So, Jessica, what has this looked like in your home? And can you give us some ideas?

 

Jessica Smartt: (16:56 - 19:19) Yeah, I just think it is so, easy for us to have our own expectations of what our kids are, and even to speak that over them from the minute they come out of the womb, whether it's, oh, we've just pinned them as to be this, or it's something that we are, or something that we want them to be. But instead to look and see like, who is this actual child that's been created? And I thought of, you know, years and years ago, my son was like, itching to do something, you know, they get to be like nine, 10. And they start feeling like, you know, they need something other than mom in the house. And we were kind of praying about it and thinking it through. And he said, “I think I really would like to play soccer.”

 

And at the time, we were pretty, pretty committed into the baseball world. And I was like, no, you know, I had friendships with the parents, and we liked the coach, and we were already there. And soccer was this whole thing I didn't even know, you know, I was like, no.  And honestly, I waited for a year or two. But now my both my boys are in a semi travel league. It's not like all out driving all across the country, but they've been able to play at a higher level.  And they're doing amazing. It's clearly what they were meant to do. And I couldn't miss out on that just by being like, no, you know, that's not what you do.

 

Like, you know, so, just being open as a parent to really like, what are they good at? And it may not be what you thought it may not be what you are good at. My daughter loves to make a giant mess in the kitchen, giant and cook. And oh, my goodness, it is very hard for me because I'm like a keep it clean.  Don't use all the ingredients. But I've been convicted to really, you know, let her explore these gifts. I have a friend whose daughter is making these elaborate birthday cakes. I mean, like the most crazy food network kind of thing. And I saw it and thought, I know what that kitchen must have looked like when you let her do that. That was a lot of days and afternoons of you letting her waste the flour and make a big mess.  But the fruit is, it's incredible. And, so, yeah, sacrificing what we want to let them grow into, you know, and God is so, good.

 

Like if we don't know what it is, pray with your kid, like you, what did you, what is your thing?  What do you think God's made you to do? We, you know, need an activity. What, what, let's ask God, like what he wants you to do. I've never prayed a prayer like that that hasn't been answered and never.

 

Laura Dugger: (19:20 - 19:47)  Oh, that's so, good. I mean, we think of for friendship for ourselves or with our children or activities that they want to do, just hopefully that's what we keep being reminded of is bring it to the Lord rather than seeking out those voices and culture and see what his perfect plan is. But you also write an entire chapter on the power of time. So, will you share some of your applicable wisdom here?

 

Jessica Smartt: (19:49 - 22:15)  Yes. And you know, don't mind me while I actually get out the book, because even though you wrote it, sometimes you're like, what exactly did I say? Um, but thinking through like activities that our family has signed up for, as I mentioned, you know, I was kind of like connected in that baseball mindset.  And so, was it actually the right thing for my kids? Maybe or maybe not. And so, I talked through like at questions to ask, you know, as a husband and wife about where our family's going and what activities our kids are doing, which is a giant question today.

 

I don't think parents are thoughtful enough about what they're signing up for and what they're doing. And you get, you know, mid-November and your schedule is completely packed and your kids having meltdowns and you're never eating dinner together. And you're like, how did we get to this life? But it was a little bit of like, not quite following the path ahead mentally to see what it would look like. And I would just encourage anybody right now that it's not too late to rearrange, even if you have to quit something, even if it costs a deposit, even if you have to back out, like we are not as trapped as we think we are. And if you're doing something in your family that's not healthy, or, you know, it's not benefiting you stop, like no one's gonna, you know, anyway.

 

So, as you're thinking through activities, I talked about the interest question, which means like, is your kid actually there? Or is it like you that's kind of getting more out of this? And then I talked about the mealtime question.  And maybe we'll get to this, but family meals are so important. They really are. Even if it is, you know, not hours of sitting there with candlelight, whatever, just to have that checkpoint together. So, is your activity schedule, allowing you to uphold whatever your values are with meals? I'm not gonna tell you what they are, but is that what you want, really? And then the whole family question.

 

You know, I've seen a lot, and we've lived it too, of like the younger kid being getting drug around to the older talented kid’s activities.  That's really a hard one, right? And so, I'm not saying don't do that. Sometimes families are gonna just look like that for seasons. But I do think it's worth stopping to say, what is it like right now to be that youngest child? What are they going through?  And am I being kind to them? You know, are there switches we can kind of make in the family? Because it's, you know, the family is not about one person and their talents. It's a holistic, healthy, functioning unit.

 

Laura Dugger: (22:18 - 23:21)  Absolutely. So, even, I hear you saying, evaluating, again, kind of taking inventory. What is on the family plate? How is that affecting every human in the unit of the family?  Is that taking us where we want to go? Just being, I love how you use the word thoughtful. Just being full of thoughts of this and taking it to the Lord of what's the wise thing to do. And for all of us, I think with that time question, it does lead us to the question of, who are we spending the most time with? Because that will significantly impact our lives.  It'll impact our children as well. So, do you have any other, I love those questions. Any other lessons that you've learned? I'm thinking especially related to activities and youth sports come to mind because our culture really has gone to the side of idolizing it and catering everything else around that. So, do you have any other wisdom to share on that topic?

 

Jessica Smartt: (23:23 - 25:48)  Yeah, I mean, I'll just share. Personally, we have decided to have our kids play at a level that is probably sub what their talent could be. And I don't know.  I guess time will tell. If they look back and they were like, mom, I really, you know, could have, but I have a hunch that they won't. I more often am seeing in my friends and stuff that it's like, they get into high school, and the kids are kind of starting to feel burnt out. Or they're like, you know, it's so, hard right now to be, I mean, not even a professional, let's say soccer player, but at college, it's like unheard of.  It's the elite, elite. And so, it's like, why are you doing this anyway?

 

And we've had several opportunities to compete at higher levels and try out for things that we have said no to, you know, because it would require being gone more nights, it would require tons of time in the car, it would be families away on the weekends.  So, we have some of that. I think it's important when you have boys, especially to let them have an outlet to compete as we, if you know, I homeschool as you do. And so, if you have a homeschooled teenage boy, they should probably be doing something right. So, I am not saying sit at home and, you know, play Monopoly every night as a family. But, we have chosen to prioritize other things.

 

And so, so far, I am super grateful for that. We had a season where we were way too busy with baseball. And it was the boys were like 10 and 12. And Monday through Thursday, one of them had a different we were never eating together Monday through Thursday, Saturdays, we were taking off different directions. I could never understand why we had to drive two hours to play a team. I'm like, there's so, many baseball players right in this neighborhood.  Can we not find a team? And God use that it's fine. But, but I don't I don't envy that season.

 

And I'm really grateful for some of the breathing room that we've had. And also, I would say my son, my oldest son is a gifted guitar player and singer. And he would not be able to do that. If we were 110% in one of those other sports, he would not have any time to even pursue those other interests.  You just never know. You know, I think white space and mental white space and time, I talk about this and let them be kids is so important for just developing as a person. No one flourishes well with a completely jam-packed schedule. And so, how would we expect our children to, you know, that is good.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:48 - 26:02)  That is so, wise. And how can we strategically connect with our kids so that they do feel seen, and known and loved and liked?

 

Jessica Smartt: (26:03 - 27:54)  Yes. I mean, that feels overwhelming, doesn't it? But and I talked through in the book kind of each one of those categories. But I know this is going to sound cliche, but I would just say a like recognizing that if a kid doesn't feel like you like them, they're going to notice that. And so, it doesn't matter all the extra things what you're getting them for Christmas, and where you're they're taking them if they really genuinely feel like you're kind of annoyed with them. They know that.

 

And that's, that's not great. So, I would say first step before you get into any practicals and pancake breakfast and all that is just like, if you are feeling that way to your kid, a don't feel guilty. It's natural.  We all have that at times. And be come before God and just say, these are the feelings I'm dealing with. Can you please help me here? And again, to quote myself, I've never prayed that prayer and it not been answered.  God has always shown up in some way. And so, often what it looks like I talk about in being liked is just like genuinely working on something that you have in common.

 

I think my parents did that so, well with us. And it wasn't the same thing because my siblings and I are all different. But they really worked to always find common ground and always have that relationship bucket full, right? My mom is like big on, you know, don't make too many withdrawals unless you have made a lot of deposits. And they lived that for years and years and years of pouring into us and genuinely connecting with us. So, way harder to do than to say, but that's our goal. And I do actually have a lot of specific ideas in the book of random ways you can love your kids, love languages and all of that. But yeah, asking God for help.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:55 - 28:09) And sometimes it's just helpful to hear what somebody else does, even if that's not exactly how it'll apply to our situation. But can you just give one example of a way that you use your child's love language, maybe both for one of your sons and your daughter?

 

Jessica Smartt: (28:11 - 29:33) Well, I've learned a lot about my middle child, and he loves the comfort things in life. So, if I see him struggling with school or something, I can bring him, you know, yogurt parfait or he likes coffee. So, we give our kids coffee.  Don't sue us anyway. But if I make him a cup of coffee, oh, you can just see it in his face. It's like, oh, mom loves me, you know?  He's one that even like if I go make his bed, he'll appreciate that. Not every kid is like that. But just kind of seeing and noticing the things that he likes.

 

That's been kind of something that we do. And then my daughter loves to tell stories, long, long stories. And I'm working so hard to not only like, I want to listen, but also, you know, teach her how to condense. Because Jordan Peterson says, don't let your kid become someone that is, you know, not pleasant to be around.  If you're struggling with something, someone else will, too. And she's an absolute delight.  I mean, truly. But so, just listening to her stories and kind of working on the art of conversation. My mom always said, play tennis, conversation tennis. So, you hit the ball, and then I hit the ball back to you. So, we're working on that, you know?

 

Laura Dugger: (29:35 - 30:05)  Absolutely. That reciprocity is huge. If you take turns asking questions, it reminds me, a previous guest, Jodi Berndt, had also said, in addition to that, let's also teach our children how to serve the ball. So, to initiate that, I just thought that that's so good. I'll work that in. Jessica, how can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be? And we do, too.

 

Jessica Smartt: (30:07 - 31:52) I have been learning so, much about this in this stage of life, you know, in my 40s.  And again, it's hard when you have little kids. So, I think you can probably say across the board, it's going to look different when you're raising little kids to have a warm and wonderful inviting home than it is in your later years when your kids are older, and you have more time.  But I would just challenge moms. Well, I look back and I think, if I hadn't been so, stretched thin and put unrealistic expectations on myself in other areas of life, I maybe could have invested in my home a little bit more. And the thing I have learned is that having a home that's peacefully run just reaps so, many benefits for a woman and her family.

 

And I am behind the curve, I feel like, on this. But as I have learned to organize my space and really pour myself into my home, not feeling like it's a waste of time to organize a pantry. It is amazing how it blesses my family.  People notice it. And it's hard to even articulate it because you wouldn't even think that if you clean out a closet, it's going to bless your family. But it really actually does.  And my husband benefits from it. He's not even like a strict, everything has to be clean. But when I've worked on something in the home, he sees it and notices it and appreciates it. So, God has just been teaching me so, much about what it looks like to really be like a homemaker, a godly homemaker and pour myself into my home. And I have reaped so much joy and peace from living out that role and calling in my life.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:53 - 32:23) That was one of the quotes I wrote down that observation that you made on page 142. And I'll just quote you, "when I do something to invest in our home, every single member of our family brightens." And I exactly great and you gave practical ways of how we can do that. And I also like it because it gives a little freedom because we're one of the family members too. And I think we brighten when we get that space in order.

 

Jessica Smartt: (32:24 - 33:06)  Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Again, back to our earlier like cultural, cultural narrative versus biblical. There's like a, there's a lot of messaging about that it doesn't matter to really invest in your home and your family. And that's just not how God made the world to operate. So, I would challenge moms that even if they are doing what the rest of everyone is doing, and it's like, ah, it looks like a bomb went off in here. Like, um, you know, that may not be how God is calling us to live with a giant disclaimer that there are seasons of life that it truly does look like a bomb went off.  And that is okay. We are doing good gospel work, raising children.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:07 - 33:46)  Absolutely. But then also I think Proverbs 31 sometimes gets a bad rap, but really there's a lot of freedom in it for women because it is how the Lord created us, but she does look well to the ways of her household. And I think that just summed up, she's one of the members of the household, but so is everybody else. And that's one thing that can bless everyone, but you are just full and abundant with ideas, and you have an appendix in the book full of resources to help us maintain and take care of all our responsibilities. So, will you share a few of those ideas with us?

 

Jessica Smartt: (33:47 - 34:46) Um, yes, I, and maybe this is my homeschool mom speaking, but I have just learned so, much from other good books. I have, it's truly changed my life just in whether it's talking about personal health or discipline or marriage or prayer or my home. So, the thing I'm really actually most proud about in the appendix is my list of recommended resources. And it's just all the books that have impacted me as a mom and also impacted my writing too.  Um, I'll, I'll mention one. I think, uh, I don't know if everyone has read A Praying Life, but that has completely transformed not only my walk with the Lord, but my prayer life.  And I've implemented, um, it's Paul Miller, I believe his idea for prayer cards. And I do that every morning. Um, it has been the sweetest thing, and I've really reaped a lot of blessing out of kind of modeling what he sets up in that book.  So, that's just one example. If you haven't read A Praying Life, you should definitely go read it.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:20)  That's awesome. And I don't know if this ties in, but I'm just remembering back one of the podcasts that I heard you speak on. You share your definition of godly self-care, and you say that it's whatever helps you do your job well and not at the sacrifice of others. So, can you elaborate with some encouragement for how we can make sure that we don't go to either side, that we don't neglect ourselves, but we also continue with this merrymaking for our family.

 

Jessica Smartt: (35:21 - 38:22)  Right. Yes. And, um, that definition, I always want to be like, you know, the end part about not to the sacrifice of someone else. When I had a young, I think I had two kids and my baby was six weeks old.  I had a very qualified, loving teenage girl. Watch my two kids while my husband and I left for literally an hour to go to five guys and get burgers.  And my youngest was not thrilled. He did not prefer the bottle. So, in some ways his life was unsettled for a brief moment, but that was okay. So, I think everyone knows when I say, um, you know, not to the sacrifice of everyone else.

 

What I'm saying is like looking at the family and certainly we shouldn't be like living this plush and well-watered life and someone else's withering away. So, it's a general statement of, you know, that it would be too far, as you said, on the extreme of, and I do think that happens honestly, because we're all self-centered.  It's not that we don't love our kids. We're just trained to care about ourselves. But many women struggle on the other side of, um, maybe neglecting some areas in their life that could truly help them to be better wives and better moms. And, um, it's a really fun activity to think like, what, how could I change my life a little bit in a way that I would be a better wife and mom.

 

And I'm not meaning that to justify any sort of behavior that, you know, you want to do, because you certainly could use that for almost anything. Um, but really to think like, how can I be the best mom and wife that I could possibly be? And it might mean making some, giving yourself some breathing room. And I would also encourage women to, um, one of the best uses for that time is to work on your marriage because there's direct overflow into the family. And so, best case, I gave some ideas of like family adventures that can kind of fill your cup along with everyone else. And I would say maybe next best or equal would-be husband, wife stuff where you can check out, connect, and you're overflowing and ready to enter back into family life.

 

And then finally things that it's certainly fine to just step out and find those things that are life giving to you, but just trying to keep an eye on, you know, how is everyone in the family doing? And there might be seasons.  I think of my mom caring for her mom who had dementia. She wasn't really well watered in that season. She was, she was quite depleted, but that's what the Lord had been calling her to do at that period of time. Um, and we often were like, mom, you've got to like, we thought she did too much, you know?  Um, but looking back, I think she really is so grateful that she laid down her life. There's not regret.  And so, I'm like, well, maybe she was right all along. I don't know.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 38:58)  Good though. The both and to have seasons of that, where we can refresh so, that when we go into a season where it's a little bit prior, we can be serving hopefully still from the overflow. But you also just blew me away in the book with your knowledge on roots. And the subtitle of that chapter is "recipes, relics, relatives, and other things that keep kids grounded." So, will you just teach us a little bit more about roots and share how it applies to building a strong family?

 

Jessica Smartt: (39:00 - 40:51)  Yes, I would like to shout out to my husband who is in the landscaping business. So, he helped me. I was like, hey, can you please give me some fun facts about roots?  And he was thrilled. But um, one thing I mentioned is that most plant problems are caused by root issues. And gosh, have I seen that in real life, like even as an adult, you notice somebody that is carrying still issues that they're working through from their childhood. And so, what a gift we're giving our kids by giving them those strong, good roots and a healthy, you know, childhood to enter into adulthood, not crippled by things, but that they can give out of strength.

 

And my husband and I feel like, you know, although our families of origin were not perfect, we lived that story, we were able to go out in strength, and not, you know, carrying all this emotional baggage. That's what I would like to give my kids. So, um, but then yeah, at the end, I share that the most integral roots to the plant's wellbeing are the ones right near the surface. And I thought, what a kind of cool parallel that even if we, you know, I've shared about my experience, but someone listening may not have good roots, and they really might struggle with having support and partnership. But they can give a new story to their kids. They can give them the roots that they did not have through the Lord's strength.  And I have found friends that I'm literally seeing them do it. But they are they are crippled. And you know, in therapy and dealing with all this trauma, but they're passing a different story on to their kids.  And how cool is that? I have so much admiration for that. It seems like it's something that really only can be done through the Lord's strength, but he does it. He writes those stories.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:51 - 41:11)  And he seems to delight in redemption stories. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I'd love to continue kind of this idea time. Will you just share another handful of your favorite practical tips for building a strong family that are topics we haven't covered yet?

 

Jessica Smartt: (41:13 - 43:16) Well, I would start with one thing I have seen huge rewards is if we do sort of like a secret Santa idea, and we actually do it also before Valentine's Day and do you know, your cupids arrow, whatever, because it just changes your whole mindset when you're suddenly thinking, how can I, you know, love this person in my family, you're in a better mood.  And so, we divide up names. And then we also do like acts of service. And that is just such a fun, like low keyway to kind of get your kids to think about loving their siblings instead of being annoyed by them. We have loved doing game nights, and we're not like big game people. But finding ones that I think my encouragement would be that it doesn't have to be like this long three-hour thing.

 

If your family's not into that, we've done like minute to win at games that I just pulled up online.  We have a lot of games that are like, no mental stress. They're very easy, like Slopsy. If anybody has not played Slopsy, they need to pick it up. It's you could play it if you were extremely tired, which I often am at the end of the day. So, to find some like quip, there's also what do you mean family edition.  And that is a fun one. And I have some other games listed in the book too, for readers who are interested. So, those would be two. We also do like one-on-one activities with the kids. And I always thought you had to do it like really, really regularly. But I would just give the encouragement that some is better than none. And so, even if it's only a couple times a year, kids just soak that up. And it doesn't need to be, you know, this whole long thing, it could be like, hey, you need some new winter pants. Let's get a Chick-fil-A milkshake beforehand. You know, just to kind of keep your eyes open for those activities and opportunities.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:17 - 43:47)  Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. Can you also share this genius idea about something that you put on the notes app of your phone?

 

Jessica Smartt: (43:48 - 44:50)  Yeah, so, I talked about the power of stories. Kids love hearing stories from our, you know, youth or young adulthood or even, you know, married years, whatever. So, I got in the habit of sharing a story with my daughter before bed. And of course, at night, you aren't always on your A game. So, I just have a note app on my phone to track different things that I might want to tell her. And my encouragement was that it doesn't need to be, we think it needs to be like this long, significant story, but even just little tidbits of things she has been delighted to hear over and over. You know, just like a passing, you know, anecdote that didn't seem to me to be too pregnant with meaning, but she just ate it up and loved hearing about all of the different things. So, yeah, that was just again, it didn't cost a lot. It's not hard, but just a little thing that kind of connected us and also connected her to a deeper sense of like, here's your roots of the people that raised you.

 

Laura Dugger: (44:53 - 45:36) I loved that idea because my daughters or our daughters will just catch us off guard and say, hey, share a story about us share a story about when you were little or when I was little. And so, I love your system that you have in place that when that idea comes to me, I can jot it down. And then when they ask unexpectedly, I'm prepared.  So, thought that was wonderful. And you've written an entire book on memories. So, I'll link to our previous episode where we talk about that.  And we dove into that topic. But you've updated your ideas in this book and come up with the most epic list of memory making ideas ever. So, could you just share a couple of those to give us a taste of what you include?

 

Jessica Smartt: (45:37 - 46:43) Yes, so, I think my favorite was at the end the chapter talking about surprises because I love the idea of surprising your kid. And when I talked about when I was little, my grandparents showed up at our school in their RV to take us camping. So, just thinking through like just different, a lot of those are like the big, you know, birthday or vacation or Christmas gifts. But even if you did it just one time, that's like a that can be like a core memory in you know, your kid’s life.

 

When I was researching this, for the appendix, I reached out to a lot of my readers, and they had the most fun ideas of just creative family memory making things. And one that I remembered that I thought, I don't know if I have the guts to do this, but I think that this family came up with it during COVID. So, they were a little bit bored, and they packed a picnic and went to a stop sign. And when they got to one, they would roll a dice to see which direction they would turn until they ended up at a good picnic spot. She said it was harder than you would think.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 47:02)  That's hilarious. I love the creativity and that element of surprise. That is so, good. Well, I hope that everybody goes out to get a copy of your amazing book. But where else would you want to direct us to connect online after this chat?

 

Jessica Smartt: (47:03 - 47:15)  Yeah, definitely come say hi on Instagram. I'm Jessica Smartt with two Ts. And you can tell me what you enjoyed about our conversation. And I'm usually every so, often we'll check the messages, but I do get back to you.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:34)  Love it. We'll add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Jessica, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical. And so, my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Jessica Smartt: (47:36 - 48:09)So, what has changed my life, I really think is, and this isn't like the most exciting thing, but walking every single day, and I walk with my weighted vest. So, I look like every other 40-year-old woman that is out there. We have a little trail around our farm. So, I, it's, I honestly have like seen so, much change in my mental health and physical health. And I know they say that on all of these, you know, resources and stuff. And I never thought it was true. But it really has changed my life just to walk every day.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:11 - 52:21)  Amen, sister, I totally agree with that. That is so, well said. You are just a brilliant and faithful and godly and humble woman. You're gifted with your communication with your words in this conversation and in the books that you've shared with the world.  And I am just so grateful for you, Jessica. Thank you so much for being my guest today.  Well, thank you for those kind words.

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski on Youth Sports Idol or Disciple Maker (Episode 285)

1 Timothy 4:8 NIV “For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Brian Smith, author of The Christian Athlete: Glorifying God in Sports, is a staff member with Athletes in Action and a cross-country coach at Lowell High School. A former collegiate runner at Wake Forest University, he earned a BA in Communications and Journalism before completing his MA in Theology and Sports Studies at Baylor University’s Truett Theological Seminary. Brian lives in Lowell, MI with his wife and three children. You can find him on Twitter @BrianSmithAIA.

 

Ed Uszynski is an author, speaker, and sports minister with over three decades’ experience discipling college and professional athletes. With a heart for reconciliation and justice, he also works as a racial literacy consultant and marriage conference speaker, blending Biblical wisdom with practical living in the midst of complex cultural realities. He has two theological degrees from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and a PhD in American Culture Studies from Bowling Green State University. He and his wife Amy have four children and live in Xenia, Ohio.

 

The Christian Athlete Website

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. What is one of kids’ greatest game day complaints? 

2. Is it true that young athletic success is a predictor of adult athletic success?

3. What are a few tips for instilling a heart of gratitude in our young athlete, rather than entitlement?

 

Related Savvy Sauce Episode:

230 Intentional Parenting in All The Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:11)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:51) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.

 

Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.

 

Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski are my guests for today.

 

They are co-authors of this recent amazing book entitled, A Way Game, A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. And from the very beginning, I was captivated, even with one of the endorsements from Matt Martens, who's the president and CEO of Awana, and he summed it up this way, A Way Game provides a much needed perspective shift on one of the most sacred idols in our culture, youth sports. So, Brian and Ed are all for youth sports, and yet you're going to hear there's a different way to approach it than what we've been trained in culture.

 

And they're going to share some wonderful and very practical insights. I can't wait to share this with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ed and Brian.

 

Ed Uszynski & Brian Smith: (1:51 - 1:54) Thanks for having us, Laura. Yeah, good to be here, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:54 - 2:04) So, excited about this chat. And will the two of you just start us off by sharing your family's stage of life and your involvement in sports?

 

Brian Smith: (2:05 - 3:29) Yeah, there could be a lot on the back end of that question. I'll start with sports, then get into family. I've been involved in sports my entire life, played every sport imaginable growing up, got cut from just about every single sport my freshman year of high school, ended up running track and cross country because it was the only sports that you could not get cut from at my high school.

 

And I ended up being pretty good at it by the time I was a senior, won some state championships, ended up getting a scholarship to run at Wake Forest University. So, I did that for four years right out of college. I coached a little bit collegiately.

 

Soon after that, I joined staff with a sports ministry called Athletes in Action that Ed and I have a combined 50 years with Athletes in Action. And really, that's been my life ever since. I've been ministering to college and pro athletes, discipling them, helping them figure out what does that actually look like to integrate faith in sport.

 

Even today, I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I coach high school cross country while I'm still on staff with Athletes in Action. I have a middle school Bible study that I run on Wednesday mornings.

 

Been married to my wife, who I actually met in high school. She was a distance runner too, and she ran at Wisconsin. So, we've been married for 20 years.

 

We have three kids, a high schooler, a middle schooler, and an elementary schooler who are all involved in sport at some level, some way, shape, or form.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:30 - 3:34) Wow, that's incredible. Thank you, Brian. And Ed, what about you?

 

Ed Uszynski: (3:34 - 5:04) Well, my story is very parallel to Brian's, just different sports and some different numbers. Just tack on 15 years. Yeah, I was a basketball player.

 

Grew up on the west side of Cleveland with a high school football coach. My dad was, but I was a basketball player. I played at high levels all the way through my 20s, got to play overseas.

 

I mean, this was a long time ago, but I got everything I could out of that sport. And as soon as I graduated from college, though, I started to work with that Athletes in Action ministry that Brian mentioned. So, I've been working with college and professional athletes for 34 years now.

 

And same, coached at different levels, have four kids. Amy and I have been married for 26 years. We have four kids, three are in college, and one's in ninth grade, who has a game this afternoon, actually.

 

So, we've just been going to games and have been involved in going to sports stuff for the last 20 years with our kids. And really what happened with Brian, and I is that we looked up a decade ago and realized this youth sports thing was a fast train that was moving in directions that we weren't used to ourselves, even though we've been around sports our whole life. It's like, there's something different happening now.

 

And then thinking about it as Christians, like, how do we do this well as Christ followers? We don't want to separate from it. We don't want to just go for the ride. How do we do this as Christian people? And that's what got us talking about it and eventually led to this book.

 

Laura Dugger: (5:05 - 5:23) Well, the book was easy to read and incredible. And I'd like to start there where you begin, even where you go back before going forward. So, when you're looking back, what are the factors at play that changed youth sports over time?

 

Ed Uszynski: (5:26 - 6:17) Well, I'll say this and then Brian, maybe you jump in and throw a couple of them out there. I mean, youth sports is a $40 billion industry today, which is wild to think about. It's four times how much money gets spent on the NFL, which is just staggering.

 

I can't even hardly believe that that's true, but it is. And it's really just in the last 20 years that that's happened. I mean, 50 years ago, you couldn't have had the youth sport industrial complex, as we refer to it.

 

You couldn't have had it. There were a bunch of things that had to happen culturally, as is true with any new movement or any paradigm shift that happens in culture. You've got to have certain things be true all at the same time that make it possible.

 

So, Brian, what were a couple of those? Again, I'll throw it over to you. There's six of them that we talk about in the book. And I think it's really fascinating because I'm a history guy.

 

Brian Smith: (6:18 - 8:40) Yeah. And we can obviously double click on any of these, Laura, that you want to, but we talk about how the college admissions process became an avenue where youth sports parents saw, man, if we can get our kids involved in some extracurriculars and kind of tag on high level athlete to their resume, it actually helps with the college admissions process. And so even the idea of college scholarships became an opportunity for youth sports parents to get their kids involved.

 

And then, yeah, maybe sports can actually get them into college. We talk about the economic shifts that happen, the rise of safetyism and helicopter parenting. ESPN was a massive one in 1979.

 

This thing called ESPN starts, and we get 24-7 coverage of sports, which they started exploring even early on. What does it look like to give coverage to something like Little League World Series and saw that it didn't really matter how young the sport was, it's going to draw a national audience. And so, we've almost been discipled by ESPN really over the last 50 years with this consistent coverage.

 

We talk about the rise of the sports complex. This one to me is like the most fascinating out of all of them. In 1997, Disney decided to try to get more people to come to their parks.

 

They built a sports complex, just a massive sports complex. The idea was, are the older kids getting sick of the Buzz Lightyear ride and the Disney princesses? So, let's build a sports complex and maybe it'll be something else that will draw this older crowd too.

 

And what happened was, I mean, a lot of people started coming to it, but kind of the stake in the ground game changer was when 9-11 hit. In the months and years after that, they saw a lot less people go to their parks, but population actually doubled going to the sports complex, which is wild to think that people were afraid to go to theme parks for a vacation, but they were willing to travel across state lines to play sports at the Disney complex. So other cities and municipalities took notice of that.

 

Today, there's over 30,000 sports complexes like Disney's, which again, this is all adding to the system of the youth sports industrial complex. Did I miss any, Ed?

 

Ed Uszynski: (8:41 - 10:47) Well, no, and that's good. And the reason why we even put all that on the table, again, everybody kind of intuitively knows if you're involved, you know, something's not right. But I think it's important to say this is not normal what's happening.

 

It's a new normal that's been manufactured by a bunch of cultural trends, by a bunch of entrepreneurs that are doing what entrepreneurs do, and they're taking advantage of the moment, and they are generating lots of money around it. So, it should be encouraging. If it's not normal, that means actually there's a counter way of going about this.

 

There really can be reformation. But when all this money gets involved, the two biggest consequences that come out of that is our kids start getting treated like commodities, which they are, and we could talk the whole time even just about what that means. But maybe even more importantly, or what comes out of that is that beyond their physical development, most coaches and clubs are not paying any attention to their emotional development, their psychological development, their spiritual development, all the different aspects of what it means to be human that, frankly, used to be paid quite a bit more attention to in youth leagues when I was growing up.

 

I'm 58 now, so I was playing in the 70s and the 80s. And it used to be expected, at least at some level, even among non-Christian people, that you would take those aspects of a kid's life seriously. And now those just aren't prioritized.

 

And so, what do we do about that? Again, that's kind of our whole point is, well, as Christian people, we're really supposed to be our kid's first discipler anyways. And part of that role and part of taking on that identity is that we would be asking, what is God trying to do in the wholeness of their life, the entirety of their life, even in the context of sports?

 

So again, I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but that's why we're trying to poke into that to say, oh, we could actually make change. We may not change the whole system. In fact, we won't. Most of us won't be expected to do that, but we can make significant change in our corner of the bleachers and what happens with our kids.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:05) That's good. And just like you said, to double-click on a few places, first of all, real quick, the 30,000 number, I remember that shocking me in the book, but I'm forgetting now, is that worldwide, the amount of sports complexes or is that just in America?

 

Brian Smith: (11:05 - 11:06) That's domestically in the US.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:07 - 11:52) Yeah. That is staggering. And then one other piece, all of this history was new to me as you brought it all together, but it was also fascinated.

 

This is from page 32. I'll just read your quote. The American youth sports ball began rolling when a British movement fusing spiritual development with physical activity made its way across the Atlantic Ocean at the turn of the last century.

 

And Ed, that's kind of what you were touching on, that they were mixing, I'm sure, spiritual, psychological discipleship, physical. Can you elaborate more on what was happening and where it originated? Because we've come very far from our origins.

 

Ed Uszynski: (11:53 - 13:18) Yeah. And there's been a bunch of really great books written about this topic called muscular Christianity. This idea, like you just said, Laura, of wedding physical activity through sports with our spiritual development and expecting and anticipating that somebody that was taking care of their body and that was engaging in sport activity, that was the closest thing to godliness.

 

That opened up the door for you to also be developing spiritually. And there was an expectation that both of those are going on at the same time. A bunch of criticism about that movement, but it was taken seriously.

 

The YMCA is actually a huge byproduct of the muscular Christianity movement. The Young Men's Christian Association created space for sports and for athletic activity to take place under the banner of you're also going to grow spiritually as you're doing this. So again, that was a hundred years ago.

 

And that's not really what AAU stands for today. The different clubs and leagues that we get involved in just don't talk that way anymore. Of course, culture just in general has shifted away from sort of a Judeo-Christian ethic guiding a North Star for us.

 

Even if we're not Christian people, that used to be more of a North Star. That's gone now. And so, it really is not expected in sports anymore.

 

Brian Smith: (13:18 - 13:55) And what we're saying is we cannot expect organizations to own that process for our kids. We can't outsource the discipleship of our kids to the youth sports industrial complex or the YMCA or the AAU. It really does start with us as Christian parents to be the primary discipler of our kids.

 

And there is a way to take what's happening on the field or the court or the pool and turn it into really amazing discipleship opportunities. But it means, and Ed is starting to tease this out, it means we need to change our perspective as parents when we sit in the bleachers or on the sidelines of what we're looking for and even the conversations we have with our kids on the back end.

 

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Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:31) And I want to continue getting into more of those practicals. Do you want to give us just a taste or an example or story of what that might look like?

 

Brian Smith: (15:32 - 16:54) We keep saying, we keep talking about the importance of the car ride home that it's tempting for us and not us broadly in the U.S., tempting for us, Ed and I, as people who have done this for 50 plus years and who should know better, it's tempting for us as discipled by an ESPN over analyzing everything culture and want to talk about sports to get in the car ride home with our kids and all we want to talk about is how game went, what they did right, what they did wrong, what they could fix next time.

 

Maybe instead of passing to Tim, they should take the shot next time because they're wide open. They just hit three in a row. So, and what our kids need from us in those moments is less coaching, less criticizing, less critiquing, and they just need us to connect with them.

 

The stats on kids quitting youth sports is crazy right now. Its 70 percent are quitting before the age of 13, in large part because it's not fun, and a lot of kids are attaching this idea of it not being fun to the car ride home with their parents who, let's say this too, most of us are well-intentioned parents. We're not trying to screw our kids up.

 

We want what's best for our kids, but the data and the research and the lived experience continues to tell us what our kids need from us is just to take a deep breath, connect with them, less coaching. Ed keeps saying less coaching, more slurpees.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:55 - 17:07) I like that. And that ties in. Is it called the peak-end principle that you discovered why kids are resisting that critique on the way home?

 

Brian Smith: (17:07 - 18:17) Yeah, absolutely. The peak-end rule in psychology is known as this: we, just as humans in general, not just kids, we largely remember things in our lives based on the peak moment of that event, but also how the event ends. And so, the peak moment in sport can be anything from something that goes really well, like they scored a goal or made a basket or something that did not go well, just like a massive event that took place that they're going to remember.

 

But then it's also married to how that event ends. So, if you think for kids, how does every youth sport experience end? It ends with the car ride home.

 

So, if they're experiencing the car ride home as I did not live up to mom and dad's standards, or there's fear getting into the car because they don't know what their parents are going to say, how are they remembering the totality of their youth sport experience? It is, I didn't, I didn't measure up. I wasn't enough.

 

It felt like sports was a place that I needed to perform for my parents or my coach. And I always feel a little bit short. We want to help parents see like there's a different path forward that can be more joyful for you, but hopefully more joyful for your kid as well.

 

Ed Uszynski: (18:17 - 21:37) Well, and, and I'll just, let me keep going with that, Brian. I thought you really articulated all that so well. I can just imagine a parent maybe thinking, was there never a time to correct?

 

Is there never a time to give input? And we would say, well, of course there, there is, they need far less of it from us than we think they need when it comes to their sport. And again, we can talk about that.

 

They need far less of that from us. They need us to be their parents, not to be their coaches. Even if we are their coach, they need us to be more their parents.

 

But there is a time to do it. We're just saying the car ride home is the worst time to do it. And that's usually the time that most of us, you know, we've got two hours of stuff to download with them.

 

And that's just, it's not a good time. But the other thing that Brian and I keep talking about is how about, what if we had some different metrics that we were even trying to measure? So, most of the time our metrics have to do with their performance.

 

Like what, what are we grading them on? Again, depending on what the sport is, there's these different things that we're looking for to say, how you did today is based on whether you did this or you didn't do that and whatnot. And we're saying as parents, and again, starting with us, we needed some other metrics that were actually more concerned about what was going on in their soul.

 

So again, I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but the virtues, how did love show up in the way they competed today? Where that usually is tied to them noticing somebody else. Do I, am I even asking them any questions about that?

 

Are they experiencing peace in the midst of all this chaos and anxiety that shows up at every game? How do we teach them to experience peace? How do they become other-centered instead of just self-centered all the time in a culture, a sport culture that's teaching them to always be the center of attention and try to be?

 

So, we just have needed to exchange some of what we had on that performance list, like tamper that down a little bit and maybe expand the list of categories that we're looking for that actually will matter when they're 25. And we keep saying this, our goal is that they'd come home for Thanksgiving when they're 25. And so, we need to stay relationally connected to them and how we act on the car ride home day after day after day after day, year after year is doing something to our relationship.

 

But we also are recognizing that it's really not going to matter whether Trey finishes with his left hand at the game today when he's 25, it's not going to matter. It's not going to matter probably a year from now, but how he goes through the handshake line after the game and the way he addresses other people, and whether or not he's learning to submit to authority, whether or not he's learning to embrace other people's humanity. Yes, even in the context of sports, that's really going to matter when he's 25.

 

It's going to matter when he's married. Those are the things that will matter. And we say that as people who are older and have been involved in ministry and have worked with college athletes and see what happens in their lives even after they're finished, and they have no idea who they are anymore.

 

And this thing that's dominated their life has not actually prepared them well to do life. And that's a problem that we say, let's start changing that when they're six and not hope they're figuring it out when they're 22.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:38 - 22:11) I love that because that's such a theme throughout those virtues that you talked about, but discipleship and sports are a tool or a way that we can disciple our kids. I also love that you give various questions throughout the book and even quick phrases. So to close that conversation on the car ride home, if we say, okay, that's what I've been coaching the whole way home, what is a question we could ask our child afterwards and a statement we could say and leave it at that and do it a better way?

 

Brian Smith: (22:12 - 23:56) The question I have consistently asked my kids after learning that I've been doing this the wrong way for a long time, I tweet my question to they get in the car and I say, is there anything that happened today from the game that you want to talk about? And it's frustrating to me because 99% of the time they say, no, can we listen to the radio? And we listen to the radio, or they play a on my phone, but I'm respecting their desire that they're done with what just happened and they're ready to move on to the next thing, even though I really want to talk about what just happened.

 

And then the statement that I want to make sure that I'm consistently saying that they're hearing is I love you and I'm proud of you. So, game didn't go well. Yeah, you did play well today.

 

That's okay. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you. Game went well today.

 

Awesome. Great job. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you.

 

So I want that to be the consistent theme that they're hearing for me, which is hopefully going to help them better understand the gospel later in life, that as they get older and older, hopefully they'll begin to realize it seemed like the way that my mom and dad interacted with me when I was performing in sport, but their love was not attached to my performance. That seems really similar to what I'm learning more and more that Jesus does for me, that I'm trying to do all these things that are good. But from what I'm understanding about the gospel, it seems like Jesus loves me in spite of what I do.

 

He loves me just because He's connected to me, that God loves me because I'm a son or daughter, not because I'm performing as a son or a daughter. So, in a very real way, I really am hoping that I'm giving a good teaser for my kids now for when they fully experience the gospel as they go through the life.

 

Ed Uszynski: (23:56 - 24:47) Another really good connecting question. I love how you said all that, Brian, is if they don't want to talk about the game, is it okay, did you have fun today? And they can only go in one of two directions.

 

No. Well, tell me about that. Why not?

 

And it opens up the door to talk about, well, because I didn't get to play or because something bad happened. And again, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that.

 

Or they say, yes, great. What happened that was fun? And it creates a very different conversation in the car.

 

And it opens up, again, relational possibilities that go way beyond, why do you keep passing it when you should be shooting it? Wow. And just all the different ways that that comes out of us, depending on sport, depending on their age.

 

But those are great questions. Go ahead, Brian.

 

Brian Smith: (24:47 - 25:41) I just asked my son this morning. He's a freshman. His wrestling season is almost done.

 

And I just asked, like, what has been most fun for you in wrestling this year? And his first thing was, I feel like I'm learning a lot. And that's really fun for me, which he's on a really good team.

 

He's had a lot of success. He's made a lot of good friends. But even that gave me a window into his characters.

 

My son enjoys and I knew this is true about him. But my son enjoys learning, which means he enjoys the process of getting better and better and better, which can happen in school, it can happen doing stuff in the yard, it can it can also happen in sport. But for me to remember moving forward, yeah, he he's probably going to have a different metric for what's fun in sport than I often do for him.

 

Yeah, like I wanted to learn. I want him to win though, too. He's happy with learning right now.

 

So, I need to be happy with that for him.

 

Ed Uszynski: (25:41 - 26:34) If I can say this, too, again, I don't want to be vulnerable on your behalf. But then knowing this, he's lost a lot this year to really good kids. Yeah.

 

And so much of the learning has been in the context of losing. So, you as a dad, actually, you could be crushing him because of those losses and what he needs to do to fix that and what he needs to do so that that doesn't happen again. And it's like he's already committed to learning.

 

How do you just how do you celebrate the loss? Like he took the risk to try something new in this movie. He tried to survive an extra period.

 

That's a process when and it's we just need to get better at that. Like you genuinely can celebrate that. That's not just a that's not like a participation trophy.

 

It's acknowledging now, do you're taking you're taking the right steps that are actually making you a winner, even if you don't have more points at the end of the game right now.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 26:54) Yeah. Yeah. And that long term win that you're talking about, even with character and you've talked about fun and asking them about fun.

 

Is it true that that's the main reason kids are dropping out of sports at such a rapid rate before age 13 is that it's just not fun anymore?

 

Ed Uszynski: (26:55 - 28:58) Yeah. Yeah. And why is it not fun?

 

And again, this is where Brian and I are always getting in each other's business. And we know that this conversation gets in all of our business as adults. But why is it not fun?

 

It's not fun because of the coaches and it's not fun because of the parents. We are creating stress. We are creating again collectively because we're all in different places on the on the spectrum on this in terms of what we're actually doing when we show up at games.

 

But if you even just go to any soccer game and you be quiet and just listen to what's happening and everybody's shouting and screaming things and there's contradictory messages being sent and there's angst at every turn and there's an incredible celebration because this eight year old was able to get the ball to go across the line for another goal. And what that's doing inside the kids is it is creating a not fun atmosphere. Let's just say it like that.

 

That's a not fun atmosphere when you're eight, when you're 10, when you're trying to figure out how to make your body work. You're trying to learn the game that you're unfamiliar with and you're trying to do what this coach is telling you to do. And you're also trying to do what all the parents are telling you what to do.

 

And if it's a team sport, you're trying to interact and play with other kids who are all in that same state of disarray, which is very stressful and frustrating. And we're just adding to it. So instead of removing it, instead of playing a role that says, we're going to keep diffusing that stress.

 

And again, I'll speak for myself. Too often, I have been the one that's actually adding to it. And so, kids are just like, why would I do this?

 

Why would I want to get in that car again with you? It's not fun. This is a game.

 

And so, there's a million other things that I can do with my time where I don't have everybody yelling at me and I don't have to listen to you correct me for two hours.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:00 - 29:21) Well, and one other thing that surprised me, maybe why kids are dropping out, you share on page 47, a quote that research reveals a strange correlation. The more we spend, the less our kids actually enjoy their sport. So, did you have any more insight into that?

 

Brian Smith: (29:21 - 30:50) Yeah, this was a real study that was done at Utah State. Researchers found that the more money parents are spending, again, let's say well-intentioned parents, the more we're spending in sports, the less our kids are enjoying. And the more they have dug into it, they're finding, and intuitively it makes sense.

 

If you buy your kid a $600 baseball bat, what's the expectation that they're supposed to do with this really expensive bat? When they swing, they better hit the ball, and they better get on base. If we're going to buy you this expensive of a bat, you can't just have process goals with it.

 

You better swing and hit it. And that's causing stress for kids. If you travel across state lines and you go to Disney to play at their sports complex, you're not there for vacation.

 

You're there to perform. So even if parents are saying we're trying to have fun, kids know when you're traveling and you're getting all this good equipment and you're on the elite team and you're receiving the best of the best stuff, they know it comes with some sort of an expectation. College athletes can barely handle that type of pressure and expectations, but we've placed this professional on youth sports from fifth five-year-olds to 15-year-olds, and it's just crushing them.

 

It's crushing them. Again, college athletes and professional athletes can barely handle it. They need mental health coaches for sports, but we're expecting that our five-year-olds can handle it, and they can't.

 

Ed Uszynski: (30:51 - 31:19) And they may not even be able to articulate it. So that's the other thing. They may not be able to identify what's actually going on inside and put it into words.

 

So again, that's why we're trying to sound the alarm for ourselves and for others who are listening, because we can do it different. Again, just to even keep spinning it back in an encouraging direction, we can do this different. We can change this this week in our corner of the bleachers.

 

We can start over again.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:21 - 31:48) Absolutely and make a difference. And before we talk about even more of the pros with sports, I think it's also necessary to reflect and maybe even grieve a few things. So, what would you say are some things families are missing out on when they choose youth sports to overfill their calendar, that that's all that they make time for?

 

What do you think they're missing out on?

 

Brian Smith: (31:51 - 33:16) Yeah, I think a couple that come to mind are family dinners are a big one. That's big for us in the Smith house, is just having the ability after a long day to sit at the dinner table together, to eat food together, and to process the day and be with one another. But when my kids' practice goes late, it means we're either eating almost towards bedtime or we're eating in different shifts.

 

And so that's something that we grieve. I think for me, when my schedule is full, I'm tempted to adopt the mindset that what's happening on the wrestling mat or on the track matters more than it actually does. And it robs me of the ability to just take a deep breath and smile and enjoy watching my kids play sports.

 

That without an intervention or a pregame devotional in the car for myself, I risk sitting in the stands or being on the sidelines, being stressed out and putting pressure on myself and pressure on my kids and gossiping about why the coach didn't put this kid into the people next to me, instead of just enjoying the gift that is sports and watching my kid try and succeed and try and fail. That is a gift available to me as a dad to watch my kid do that. But the busyness often robs me of that perspective.

 

Ed Uszynski: (33:17 - 36:06) Well, and the busyness robs, again, if you're married, that busyness eventually wears away at your relationship. And it's not just sports. I mean, busyness, we can fill our schedule, overfill our schedules with any number of things.

 

We can overfill our schedules with church stuff to a point where it becomes detrimental to our relationship. If we don't set boundaries so that we're making sure we're doing what we need to do to be face-to-face and to be going to areas beneath the surface with each other in our relationship and being able to do that with our kids as well, eventually there's negative consequences to that. It may not happen right away, but I've definitely experienced that.

 

We've experienced that in our home where it's easy to maybe chase one kid around for a while, but what happens when you add three into the mix and you haven't really done a time budget or paid attention to the fact that when we sign up for all these things, you get a month into it and you realize, oh, we have to be in different places at the same time. So, we're not even watching stuff together anymore. We're just running.

 

I can endure anything for a season, but what youth sports wants now in every sport from the youngest ages is that it becomes a year-round commitment. So, you're not even signing up to play a season anymore. You're signing up for a year in most cases because after the games, then they're going to have training.

 

They're going to have this other thing going on. And so again, can we say, well, we'll play the actual season, but then we're not going to do the additional training over these next three months. Again, we want to give parents’ permission that you can say no to that.

 

Well, we paid for it. Well, it's okay. If you want your kid to be on that team and you like this club or whatever, then you pay the money and you just say, we're going to sit those three months out and we're going to use those three months actually to have people over our house for dinner.

 

Again, whatever's on the list, Laura, that you said about being more holistic and not letting sport operate like an idol in our life where it's taken on, it's washed out everything else in our life. We can get back in control of that by just saying no a little bit. You can go to church on Sunday.

 

Even if there's tournament games going on on Sunday, you can go to the coach early and say, hey, we just, in our family, we just don't want to be available before 12. Are you okay with that? And most of the time coaches will be.

 

The kid might have to sit extra maybe for not being, whatever. Okay. That's not going to be the end of the world that they had to sit out an extra game or had to sit out a half because they weren't available on Sunday morning.

 

It might actually make a huge difference that they weren't at church for two and a half years in the most formative time of their life.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:07 - 37:36) And a lot of times the way of wisdom includes reflection, getting alone with the Lord and asking, have we overstuffed our schedule this conversation today? Let's talk specifically with youth sports. Is that trumping everything else?

 

Because what if we're putting it in a place it was never intended to be as an idol where we sacrifice hospitality or discipleship or community or even just a more biblical way of life? I think we have to bring wisdom into the conversation for what you've mentioned. Whether it's worth it, if they're even enjoying it, how much we're spending on it, and do we have the budget to allocate our finances that way and evaluating the time just to see and make sure that it's rightly ordered.

 

Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy!

 

But if we flip that to if youth sports are rightly ordered, then what are some things that we can celebrate or reasons that you would want families to give this a try?

 

Brian Smith: (37:37 - 40:09) The massive positive that we keep coming back to is we have a front row seat to see our kids go through every possible emotion in sport, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And then if we have the right perspective, we are armed with awesome opportunities and awesome information that we're seeing. We get to see what our kids are really good at.

 

We get to see their character gaps. And then we get to be the ones who, again, who are their primary response, primary disciplers. It really goes back to like, are we trusting youth sports for too little in our kids' lives?

 

Like many of us are trusting that our investment is going to get them a spot on a team, or maybe they get an opportunity in high school, maybe in college. And what we're saying is, yeah, that maybe. And that's not a bad end goal.

 

But if that's everything that you're investing into youth sports, it's not enough. Like what you have available to you every single day is to ask your kid if they showed somebody else's dignity on the field. You don't know if your kid's going to hit a home run today.

 

That may not be available to them their entire life. What's available to them every single day is to ask a question to their teammate, to see somebody and show dignity to them. And that's really, it's like, it's almost the opportunity of a lifetime for us as parents who, when our kids get home from school, we really don't know what happened most of the day.

 

We asked them how it went and we get the one-word answer. In sports, we don't have to guess. We get to see everything that happens.

 

And again, if we are actually trusting youth sports for discipleship investment, that's a good ROI. That's a good return on our investment. But we need a consistent intervention almost daily to say, no, this is why they're in sports.

 

Yes, I want to see them get better. I want to see them have fun, but Holy Spirit, would you help me see things today that I normally don't see? Holy Spirit, would you put them in circumstances and relationships today and in the season that's going to help them look more and more like Jesus by the time the season's done?

 

Holy Spirit, would you convict me in the moment when I am being a little too mouthy and saying things that I shouldn't? Would you help me to repent? And God, in those moments where I'm actually doing wrong on behalf of my kid, would you help me to humble myself and apologize to them?

 

And God, would you repair our relationship that way? So again, all of these options are available just because our kid's shooting a ball or they're on the field with somebody else tackling other people. We're trusting youth sports for too little.

 

Ed Uszynski: (40:10 - 41:10) That's all big boy and big girl stuff. It just is. I don't normally naturally do any of that.

 

I have to be coached into that. I have to be discipled myself. I have to work through my own issues, my own baggage, my own fears about the future, my own idolatrous holding onto this imagined future that I have for my kid, irrespective of what God may or may not want.

 

I've got my own resentment. I've got my own regrets from the past. I wish things had gone differently for me, so I'm going to make sure they go different for you when it comes to sports.

 

And it's hard to look in the mirror and admit that I have anger issues. I mean, youth sports create a great opportunity for me to get up all my pent-up frustration from the day. We've given ourselves permission to do that, in most cases, to just yell and yell at refs and gripe about coaches and yell at kids.

 

Brian Smith: (41:10 - 41:31) Because that's what we do at the TV, right? When our favorite team is playing, we've conditioned ourselves to say, awful call, that was terrible. Then we get on social media and we complain about it.

 

We are discipling ourselves to this is how it's normative to respond within the context of sports. Then we carry all that baggage to our six-year-old soccer game.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:33 - 42:02) Well, I love how you keep pointing it back toward character and discipleship. You clearly state throughout the book, sports don't develop character, people do. But could you maybe elaborate on that a little bit more and share more now that we've listed pros and cons, you still list a completely different way that we can meaningfully participate while also pushing back?

 

Brian Smith: (42:04 - 43:49) I'll start with the first part, and then you can answer the second. We use the handshake line as a great example of why character needs to be taught to our kids. If you just watch a normal handshake line left without coaching, the kids are going through it, especially the ones who lose with their head down, they have limp hands, there's no eye contact, and they're mumbling good game, good game.

 

Sometimes they don't even say it, they'll say GG stands for good game. They don't just learn character by going through the handshake line. If anything, that's going through it like that without any sort of intervention or coaching, that's malforming their character.

 

That's teaching them when things don't go well, that it's okay for them not to be a big boy or a big girl and look somebody in the eye and congratulate them. What needs to happen? An adult needs to step in and say, hey, as we go through the handshake line, whether you win or lose, here's how we do it with class.

 

We shake somebody's hand, we look them in the eye, and we say good game. Even if in those moments we don't actually mean it, we still show them dignity and honor. And then when we're done going through the handshake line, guess what we're going to do?

 

We're going to run down the refs who are trying to get in their car and get out of here, and we're going to give them a high five and say, thank you so much for reffing today. That stuff needs to be taught. Our kids don't just come out of the womb knowing how to do that.

 

We have to teach them how to do it. Sometimes good coaches will do that, but the more and more we get sucked up into the sports industrial complex, we're getting well-intentioned coaches, but we're getting coaches who care more about the big W, the win, than the character formation stuff that happens.

 

Ed Uszynski: (43:49 - 45:27) They need to keep hearing it over and over again. I have a ninth grade Bible study in my house the other day with athletes and a whole bunch of my son's basketball team. Exactly what Brian just said, I actually was like, wow, I've got them here.

 

There was a big blow up at a game the other day, and we wound up talking about it. I said, I'm going to take this opportunity actually to say what Brian just said. When you go through a handshake line, this is how you go through it.

 

I watched what happened in the game a couple days later. Basically, they did the exact opposite of what I told them to do, and they lost. It was just what Brian said.

 

They went through limp handed. They didn't look anybody in the face, and they weren't even saying anything. I just chuckled to myself, and you know how this is as a parent.

 

They may or may not do it. Of course, those aren't my kids. I have more stewardship over my child, who actually, he is doing what I've asked him to do because I've re-emphasized it across time now.

 

It's not a failure because they didn't do what I said. Again, the pouty side of me wants to be like, forget it. I'm just not even going to try anymore.

 

It's like, no, they're kids. That was the first time they've heard that. They're going to do what their patterns have, the muscle memory that's been created by their patterns, just like we do as adults.

 

The next time I have a chance to bring that up again, I'm not going to shame them. I'm just going to go over it again with them. Here's how we do it.

 

It's super hard to do this, guys, when you just want to be violent with people or you want to cry. You got to pull yourself together. That's what big men do.

 

That's what big women do in life. They pull themselves together in those moments and do the right thing.

 

Brian Smith: (45:28 - 46:01) You don't know whether the fifth time you say it is going to stick or the 50th time. Your responsibility as the Christ-following parent is to do it the sixth time and the seventh time and the seventh time and trust that God is going to take those moments and do what he does. We're ultimately not responsible for our kids' behavior.

 

We're responsible for pointing them in the right direction, and then hopefully, yeah, the Holy Spirit steps in and transforms and changes and convicts in those moments, but it might take some time.

 

Ed Uszynski: (46:02 - 47:47) Tom Bilyeu So that's how you push back, Laura. You were asking that. How do we push back without being just completely involved in it or going for the same ride that everybody else is going for?

 

There's just little moments like that scattered throughout. Literally, every day that my kids are involved in youth sports, the car ride over, what happens on the way home, how we talk about it, what happens during the game and what we wind up talking about out of that, the side conversations that happen that just get brought up apart from games of how we interact with people and so-and-so looks like they're struggling. What do you know about that?

 

That's how we push back, that in our corner of the bleachers, oh, how we interact with other parents. We haven't even talked about that yet, that I can take an interest in more than just my own kid in the bleachers and spend way more energy actually in cheering for other kids and just trying to give them confidence and spend way less time trying to direct that at my own child who knows that I'm there. In fact, my side kid has said he doesn't want to hear my voice during the game.

 

It distracts him. He's like, I'd much rather that you cheer for other people. It's like, okay.

 

Having questions ready for other parents during timeouts and as you sit there for hours together, what do you talk about? Well, I could be the one that actually initiates substantive conversations over time with them and asks them about what's going on in different parts of their life. And in having done that, people want to talk.

 

They want a safe place actually to share what's going on in their So let me be the sports minister. Let me take on that identity and actually care about other people.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 49:47) I love that. Even that practical idea of just coming to each game, maybe with a different question, ready to open up those conversations. And I'll share a quick story as well.

 

Our two oldest daughters recently just gave cheerleading a try at a local Christian school that allows homeschool kids to participate. And this is an overt way that somebody chooses the different way. So, it's the coach of the basketball team.

 

His name is Cole. And at the end of every game, we saw him consistently throughout this season when it was a home game, whether their team won or lost, he would ask them, okay, shut off the scoreboard. It's all blank.

 

He gathers both teams. As soon as the game is over teams, cheerleaders, the stands stay filled with all the parents. And he says, this is not our identity.

 

The world and Satan, our enemy, who's very real. He wants us to put our identity here, but it's not here. You made us better tonight by the way that you played and you were able to shine Jesus.

 

And we're going to go a step further and we're going to do what we call attaways. So, he's like, all right, boys, you open it up. And his team is trained.

 

They say to the other team, Hey, number 23, what's your name? I loved how you pushed me so much harder tonight and says, my name's Ben. And so, their Attaway is, Hey, Ben.

 

And everybody goes, Hey, Ben. Yeah, Ben. Yeah, Ben Attaway.

 

And everybody just erupts in clapping. And the other team is always blown away and they are just grinning, whether they just lost. So, the boys go through that for a while and then they open it up to the other team and they start sharing Attaways.

 

And then they open it up to the crowd and the parents are able to say, I see the way you modeled Jesus by being selfless with the ball or whatever it is. So, Cole said that his college coach did that many years ago and he's passed that on. And I love that's one way to redeem the game.

 

Ed Uszynski: (49:47 - 51:39) Wow. Beautiful. Beautiful.

 

Yeah. That's amazing. And, you know, I, so Brian and I talk about this too.

 

And I coached at a Christian school. So, we, we think that it's really important if you're going to play sports and you're going to be a Christian coach that you actually take the game seriously. And that we actually are here to compete and we are here to try to win.

 

There's nothing wrong with that. And we're going to pursue excellence when we show up with our bodies, and we train for this sport and we're going to try to win. Cause I think sometimes we end up kind of going all or nothing, especially within our Christian circles.

 

We're uncomfortable with that. And it's like, yes, do that. And on the backside of that to do what that coach did is amazing.

 

It's that, that is, that is exactly what we're saying. We're also going to try to form our souls in the midst of this. We're going to try to win on the scoreboard.

 

Okay. The game's over, we lost, we won, whatever. There's more going on here than just that.

And can we access that together? And again, that's so rare. Probably everybody listening has never even heard of anything like what you just said.

 

It would be amazing if a bunch of people did, but that's what we're saying. Let's do more of that. Let's find ways to have more of those conversations in our sphere of influence.

 

Maybe we're not the coach, but we can do that in our car. We can do that when we're at dinners with the other, with other players and other team, you know, we, we can do that. We can take that kind of initiative.

 

If we have those categories in our mind, instead of just being frustrated that my kid didn't get to play as much tonight. And I'm that bugs me. It's like, okay, it can bug you.

 

And now I gotta, I gotta be a big boy and get more out of this than just being frustrated that he or she didn't get to play as much. It's hard.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:40 - 52:11) Absolutely. Well, and like you guys are doing having Bible studies outside of the, the team that you can instill values in that way and share scripture that they're memorizing to go out there with excellence for the Lord. So, I love all of that.

 

And I've got just a few quick questions, just kind of for perspective. I want to draw out something from the book. Is it true that young athletic success predicts adult athletic success?

 

Brian Smith: (52:13 - 53:51) It is not true. This is, this is not a hot take. This is researched back more and more research they're doing on this.

 

And they're finding that there's not a direct correlation between a young elite athlete and them continuing that up into the right trajectory and being an elite athlete later in life in large part, because when puberty hits, like everything is a game changer. So, this is, I found this fascinating and this is probably going to be new to you too. This just came out today.

 

At the time we're doing this podcast, the winter Olympics is going on in Norway. It's just like, they're killing it. Nor Norway's youth sports system.

 

This is wild. They give participation trophies for all the kids. They don't keep score until 13 years old.

 

They don't do any national travel competitions, no posting youth sports results online. So, there's no online presence of youth sport results. And their country motto is joy of sport for all.

 

And they're, they're killing it right now in the Olympics. So, like, that's not to say, like you got to follow their model and then you're going to win all these gold medals, but it is, there is something to just let the kids have fun. And the longer they play sport, because it's fun, the better opportunity you're actually going to have to see them blossom and develop some of these God-given gifts that they might have.

 

Don't expect it to come out before they're 13. Even if it does, there's no guarantee that it's going to continue on until they're 23. Just let them have fun.

 

Ed Uszynski: (53:52 - 55:55) Brian, we, Brian and I got to speak at a church the other day about this topic. And there was a couple that came up afterwards and they asked the question of what, so when do you think we should let our kids play organized sports or structured sports? And so again, Brian and I are careful.

 

Like I, there's no, there's no one size fits all answer to that. We would suggest as late as possible, wait as long as possible. Because once you start doing structured sport where there's a coach and you have to be at practices and the games are structured and there's reps, it just cuts away all the possibility they have to just play and just to go up to the YMCA and just play for three hours at whatever it is that they like to do.

 

And they said, well, it's encouraging to hear that they said, because we, we actually are way more into just developing their bodies physically. And so, we do dance with them, and we do rock climbing and they were kind of outdoorsy people, and they just started listing off all these things they do because we want them to become strong in their bodies, and learn to love activity like that. And I just thought, again, that's, that probably would cause a lot of people to freak out to hear that, that they have eight, nine-year-olds that aren't on teams yet.

 

They're just, they're training their bodies to appreciate physicality and to become coordinated and to, you know, to get better at movement. And it's like, what sport is that not going to be super helpful in five years from now, even when they're 12, 13 years old. And now they really do want to play one sport, and they do want to be on a team.

 

They're going to be way ahead of the kids actually that just sat on benches or stood in the outfield, you know, day after day after day at practices. Again, that's maybe hard to hear, but maybe there's some adjustments that need to be made again; to give ourselves permission to say, we don't have to get on that train right now. You don't have to, your kid's not going to be behind.

 

They actually could be ahead. If you do the kinds of things we just talked about.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:56 - 56:11) I love that. And even that example with what it looks like played out with Norway and also, do you have any other quick tips just for instilling and cultivating a heart of gratitude and youth sports rather than entitlement?

 

Brian Smith: (56:13 - 57:33) I'm a high school cross country and track coach, and I have kids on my team who want to get faster at running, but instead of running, they want to lift weights and they want to do plier metrics. So, there's, yes, there's a spot for that. But the way you get better at running is to run.

 

You got to run more miles and more miles. And I think gratitude is similar. That gratitude, part of it is a, it's a feeling, but it's also a muscle that we can flex even if we don't feel it.

 

And so, I would encourage parents who are trying to instill gratitude into their kids to give them practical things like, hey, after practice, just go shake your coach's hand or give them a fist bump and tell them, thanks for practice today, coach. That that's a disciplined way to practice gratitude that will hopefully build the muscle where they're, they're using it later in life. After a game, I taught my kids this when they were young and they still do it today.

 

Go shake a ref's hand. I mentioned this earlier, just a really, really practical way to show thankfulness and gratitude to somebody who really doesn't get a whole lot of gratitude pointed at them during a game or after a game. If anything, they have people chasing them through the parking lot for other reasons.

 

I want my kids to be chasing them down to give them a fist bump or a high five. And so, gratitude is something that we can just practice practically. And hopefully the discipline practice will lead to a delight and actually doing it.

 

Ed Uszynski: (57:34 - 59:39) And how do we cultivate an inner posture? Cause I tend to be a cup half empty type person. I'm a, I'm a whiner by nature and a continuous improvement.

 

There's always something wrong. And I'm, it's easy for me to find those things just as a person. I'm not even saying that as a dad or a coach or anything.

 

And it's been super helpful to me in the last decade, even to just like, I can choose to shift that. There, there is, there's a list of things that are broke, but there is always a list of things that are good. There's always something good here to be found.

 

And even as I've tried to like, again, tip the scales more in that direction, I can keep pushing that out of my kids. So, so this, you know, my ninth-grade son tends to just like, he doesn't like a whole bunch of what's going on in basketball right now. So, I keep asking him if he's having fun.

 

He says, no, like, why not? Or like, who did, why did you not have fun today? So, it's just the same thing every day.

 

I'm like, okay, who did you enjoy even being with today? Nobody. And I'm like, dude, I don't believe that actually.

 

I just, I don't believe that. There was somebody that you had some moment with today that you enjoyed, or you wouldn't want to keep going back up there because, and he does. So, give me a name.

 

Okay. Lenny. What happened with Lenny that was fun?

And I make him name it. Like I'm, I'm, I'm trying to coach him through it. And sure enough, he does have some sentences of what was fun today.

 

And it's like, good, let's, let's at least hold onto that in the midst of all the other stuff that's not right. Let's choose to see the thing that was good and that you enjoyed and that we could be thankful for. Not everybody got to have that today.

 

Again, I have to have my, I have to be the parent. I have to be the discipler. I have to be in, you know, in charge of my own soul that wants to be negative all the time and say, nope, we're going to, we're going to choose gratitude today because the Bible tells us to do that.

 

There's something about that posture that opens the door for the gospel to be expressed through us. So, let's practice.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:40 - 59:50) Well said, and there's so much we could continue learning from both of you. Where can we go after this chat to learn more from each one of you?

 

Brian Smith: (59:52 - 1:00:14) Yeah, we do a lot of our writing online at thechristianathlete.com. And so, if you go there, you can see articles that are specifically written for parents, for coaches, for athletes, all around this idea of what does it look like to integrate faith and sport together? So, there's Bible studies, devotional, there's other books that have been written, but thechristianathlete.com is where a lot of that, that stuff lies.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:00:16 - 1:00:22) Wonderful. Link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Ed, anything you wanted to add for where we can follow?

 

Ed Uszynski: (1:00:23 - 1:01:02) No, no. Anything that has to do with this topic for me is at thechristianathlete.com as well. And we're trying to be, you know, more available to churches, to Christian schools, like we said, to come do seminars; to have a three-hour, you know, take a three-hour block of time and bring parents together that want to be having these conversations.

 

We, we've been saying from the beginning with the book, even that we hope that people will not try to do this alone but will lock arms with other people in their church or their community. They're saying, let's, let's see if we can do this differently together. So, we want to be available to help y'all.

 

If anybody wants that, just reach out to us at thechristianathlete.com.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:03 - 1:01:20) Wonderful. Appreciate you sharing that. And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.

 

And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Brian Smith: (1:01:23 - 1:02:04) Mine is, my mantra this year is consistency compounds. So, I've mentioned that with cross-country coaching. I tell my kids this weekly consistency compounds that if you want to be a good runner, just show up and run, get some sleep.

 

And then the next day, do it again and repeat and repeat and repeat. And the consistency will compound over time, and you will get better. And so, I take that even into my own walk with Jesus that I'm remembering consistency compounds with how I read my Bible and what I look at and what I'm stewarding to come into my mind really throughout all life that I want to continue to stack days and compound interest on that.

 

Ed Uszynski: (1:02:05 - 1:03:09) I like that, Brian, we need to get a T-shirt made with that on it. I would say changing the narrative. I tell myself about myself.

 

That's been huge for me the last years. And it kind of probably even comes out of that whole cup half empty thing. It's like, especially in marriage, I just spent a decade telling myself that I don't like going out in the woods.

 

And I married a girl that's a woodsy type person. She loves being at lakes. And at some point it's just like, well, dude, maybe the reason why God brought this person into your life was so that you would change and you actually could start to experience this and learn, like it.

 

And I just, there's so many things in my life that I've just gotten so used to telling myself, I don't like this, I don't like that, or I want this all the time, or I want that. And it's like, change the narrative you tell yourself about yourself and see what kind of joy that produces. Maybe God is actually trying to bring change for you, and you'll never find it if you just stick to this is who I am and what I am and how it's going to be.

 

It's been super helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:03:11 - 1:03:33) Brian and Ed, those are so good. And I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I've learned from your parenting, from your passion, from the way that you are disciplined yourselves and disciple others.

 

There's so much goodness and you wrote with excellence in this book as well. I'm just so grateful. So, thank you for being my guest today.

 

Ed Uszynski: (1:03:34 - 1:03:35) Thank you, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:03:36 - 1:07:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.