493.8K
Downloads
352
Episodes
Practical Chats for Intentional Living
Episodes
Monday Oct 19, 2020
Monday Oct 19, 2020
117. Romantic Love in Marriage with Dr. Willard Harvey
**Transcription Below**
Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D. is best known as author of the internationally best selling book, His Needs, Her Needs. Over four million copies have been purchased, and it is available in twenty-two foreign translations.
Dr. Harley earned a Ph.D. degree in psychology from the University of California at Santa Barbara in 1967 and has been a Licensed Clinical Psychologist in Minnesota since 1975. Dr. and Mrs. Harley also host a daily one-hour call-in show, Marriage Builders® Radio. It can be heard on radio stations and on the Internet. They live in White Bear Lake, Minnesota. They have two adult children, who are now working with them as marriage coaches, and four grandchildren. They are also great-grandparents.
Other Episodes Related to Marriage and Gender Differences:
36 Gender Differences and Common Relationship Conflict with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
37 Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson
50 Understanding Gender Differences in Marriage with Dr. Ted and Ang Bryant
61 Marital Communication and Intentional Family Life with Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Susan Seay
65 Simple Solutions to Help You Prepare For, Enrich, or Save Your Marriage with Dr. Matthew Turvey, Director of WinShape Marriage
85 5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
93 Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn
107 Communication and Healthy Conflict Resolution with Kelley Gray
108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
111 Building Love Together in Blended Families with Ron Deal
113 Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Dr. Willard Harley:
His Needs, Her Needs for Parents
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Dr. Willard Harley is best known internationally for his best-selling book entitled, His Needs, Her Needs. This resource has helped millions of marriages. I am honored to interview him as my guest today.
Dr. Harley is going to help us understand our emotional needs, and he's going to share these subtle attitudes and actions that are most likely to hurt our marriages. I think you're going to leave this conversation feeling equipped to make small and thoughtful changes in your romantic relationship that will pay off with incredible results.
Here's our chat.[00:01:27]
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Harley.
Dr. Willard Harley: Thank you. Glad to be with you today.
Laura Dugger: Will you just start us off by sharing a bit more about your journey to becoming a marriage expert?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, I actually started out in mathematics and physics and engineering. The idea of becoming a marriage expert was about the farthest thing from my mind. I was going to be a computer programmer, and I was interested in computer technology and artificial intelligence.
The artificial intelligence part was what got the attention of the psychology department, the university where I was doing postgraduate work. And so they offered me a chance to get a PhD in psychology in three years without getting a master's or anything. And I jumped at the opportunity. So three years later, I'm a psychologist.
I became more and more interested in the problems that people had. [00:02:28] I've been involved in the interaction with people with their problems probably since I was a teenager. My dad is a psychologist.
So people would come to me with their marriage problems and didn't understand what it would take to have a great marriage, didn't do any reading on the subject, and I became a failure.
I'm not good at being a failure. So the longer I was approached by people with their marriage problems, the more I thought, "I better learn how to do this because people are coming to me." I'm a firm believer that the Lord gives us opportunities. And what that usually means is that He wants us to learn something about this so that we can follow His will. So I learned. I learned how to be a marriage counselor.
This took me quite a number of years, a lot of failure. Eventually, I got to a point where I was really good at this sort of thing. [00:03:28] I was able to save a lot of marriages and started writing books on it. And here we are today talking about marriage.
Laura Dugger: From that experience, just to follow up with a few questions, was it through just experiencing couples and talking to them or through reading other books? Or what do you feel like really aided that process of going from a failure to a success?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, I read a lot of books. As a matter of fact, I did an internship and studied the methods that people were using. I became very much aware that the methods that were available at the time, which was in the 60s, didn't work.
In the 70s, the people that I did the internship with, the director of the program, got divorced. Even though they claimed a 90 percent success rate, I discovered that that was a lie. They were probably not really very successful in any of their programs. And so I decided to just kind of create something from scratch. [00:04:31]
In my graduate training in psychology, I studied behavioral psychology, and I became aware of the fact that you could teach people how to feel certain ways. It's called classical conditioning, Pavlov's dog kind of stuff. And I thought, "I wonder if this could apply to marriage."
So I took up the issue of romantic love as a study. I studied romantic love. What is it? Can you measure it? Can you create it? Can you destroy it? Can it be sustained? Over a period of about five years, with the help of students that I had when I was teaching, we did a series of studies on romantic love.
That helped me not only understand how to create romantic love, but I became aware of what a powerful effect that it had on marriage. [00:05:31] No couple that I had ever seen that were in love. By this time, I could actually measure it. I knew whether people are in love or not, ever wanted to get divorced.
So I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to save marriages, all I had to do is teach people how to be in love when they're married. And sure enough, it worked really well. I became a sensation. People were coming to me from all over the United States.
Basically, I started writing books about how I did all these. I would say today, millions of people have actually had their marriages saved by learning how to be in love when they were married. And I do this to this day.
Laura Dugger: And so what was your original discovery, how couples can restore that feeling of love?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, when you think about conditioning, what you're thinking about, okay, what I want to do is I want to associate a spouse with good feelings. I mean, if I want Joyce to like me, all I want to be sure to do is to make sure that she ends up feeling good when I'm around. [00:06:36]
And the question is, can I have any impact on that? And, of course, I can. I can make her feel good when I'm around, or I can make her feel bad when I'm around. So I learned how to avoid making her feel bad when I was around, and I learned how to make her feel good.
Now, in my studies, I didn't do this with Joyce, actually. I didn't do the studies with her. I did it with other people. I asked people, what could your spouse do that would make you the happiest? I was looking basically at what could we do to get people to fall in love by associating them with enough good experiences that it would trigger romantic love, which is basically what I consider to be a threshold of pleasure with a particular person, where the person then becomes irresistible to you.
By surveying hundreds of people and asking them, what can you do, what your spouse could do to make you happy, I came up with 10 categories that I considered to be the most important emotional needs.[00:07:40] And then I told people, just prioritize them for me. Tell me what you need the most from your spouse.
I was interested basically in making sure that each spouse would know where to put their greatest effort. In other words, whatever the highest priorities were on these emotional needs would be something that they could then learn how to do. And by doing that, they would make each other happy.
I use the concept of the love bank. I created that concept back in the 70s to help people understand how associating your spouse with good feelings would create romantic love, because you make enough love bank deposits, you breach the romantic love threshold. It was a simple concept for people to learn.
They began understanding that whatever they did affected each other, either positively or negatively. And they learned how to affect each other positively by meeting the top emotional needs that were listed for them as a couple. [00:08:41]
What I discovered, though, was that men would give me one list out of the ten and women would give me an entirely different list. The top five needs for men on average tended to be the bottom five for women. That doesn't mean that they didn't enjoy the bottom five. I mean, these are all things people enjoy, but it just wasn't that enjoyable compared to the top five.
The opposite was true for women. The top five for women was the lowest five for men. So I was encouraging people to do all of it, of course. But the top two are making the biggest love bank deposit. So focus on those. Then the next three would be something you'd sure want to be skilled in. And even though you need to recognize the rest of the list, that's where you want to put your greatest effort in the top.
So the needs for men had a higher priority than the needs for women. [00:09:41] So I taught women how to meet needs that weren't that important to them and men how to meet needs that weren't that important to them either, and bingo, they would fall in love with each other within a very short period of time in my counseling experience.
So it's an unusual approach to marriage. Usually, you're thinking about communication skills and you're thinking about negotiating. I just went right to the heart of the matter and I said, What can I do to get you to be in love with each other? You do this stuff, you do this for me and you'll be in love. And sure enough, couples that I counseled experienced that.
Then I discovered once they were in love, their communication problems were over. They were communicating just fine and they were negotiating just fine. In other words, being in love actually triggers instinct in us that we're much better at being a marriage partner when we're in love. So that's been my approach throughout the years and it's worked pretty good. [00:10:44]
Laura Dugger: Yes, that paradigm shift seems to be very successful. I definitely want to recommend that people can pick up different copies of your books. The one that comes to mind is His Needs, Her Needs. So they'd have to read to go through all of them. But do you mind just giving a little sample of what some of those top five needs were for each gender?
Dr. Willard Harley: Yes. I have to preface this by saying that everybody's different. Not any couple in particular have the same top five needs as any other couple in particular. I'm talking about averages.
So a couple need to understand that they're going to have different priorities when it comes to emotional needs. And so instead of telling people what their emotional needs are, I want them to discover it. We offer the emotional needs questionnaire free of charge on the marriagebuilders.com website. You just download it, fill it out, and then you learn from your spouse what their top emotional needs are, what yours are, and then you go to work learning how to meet them. [00:11:50]
But on average, the top five emotional needs for men are sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, physical attractiveness, domestic support, and admiration.
For women, the top five emotional needs are usually affection, intimate conversation, honesty and openness, financial support, and family commitment. Now, that's not saying that men and women don't have those same emotional needs. Like a woman will have a need for admiration, too, and a man will have a need for affection.
But it's just not the higher priority. You don't make as many love bank deposits by meeting the needs on the bottom of their list as you would on the top of their list. So I get people to focus more on what's ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and get to work meeting those emotional needs and you'll find that you're going to fall in love much quicker.[00:12:52]
Laura Dugger: It sounds like a key piece of this is engaging in conversation with our spouse to understand them. And maybe the first way to do that is take that questionnaire. But then I'm so curious, from your findings, even though everyone is different, was there consistently one or two that rose up the most for males and females?
Dr. Willard Harley: Yeah. And as a matter of fact, it's so consistent that I started telling people, I don't care what you write down on your emotional needs questionnaire, this is what I want you to do. Because sometimes the emotional needs questionnaire would not accurately reflect what turned out to be the most important emotional needs.
And so I would tell husbands and wives, here are four emotional needs that I want you all to meet. I want you to meet the need for affection, intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. I don't care what your questionnaire looks like. [00:13:54] I want you to meet those needs for each other. That worked out really well.
As a matter of fact, what I did eventually was I defined those four emotional needs as being the essential components of a romantic date. I started by telling people what you need to do is have romantic dates, because that way you can make the most love bank deposits in the fewest amount of time.
Then I got to a point where I said, You know, in order to do this right, you really need 15 hours a week. You got to spend 15 hours a week, what I call giving undivided attention. But basically what it is is 15 hours of romantic dates every week, three to five hours each where those four emotional needs are met. And wow, I just saw my whole program take off.
So that little component where you take four emotional needs and you really put a lot of energy into meeting those in romantic dates, basically, it clears the whole area of obstacles. [00:15:00] So I put a great deal of emphasis on that. Once I get people to do romantic dates with each other, their romantic relationship really thrives.
Laura Dugger: How did you arrive at that 15 hours number? I love that.
Dr. Willard Harley: Basically it was trial and error. You know, I would tell some couples that just have a Friday night date and see what happens. You know, because they have their Friday night date, and it would be good. People would say, well, "It's a lot better than it used to be." And then I tried 10 hours. I tried 25 hours. I had people pretty cooperative with me because their marriage was about to go on to the rocks and they were willing to do just about anything I told them to do.
And what I found was that you got about as much bang for the buck out of 15 hours as you would 25 hours. But if you were at 10 hours, it really wouldn't work that well. And so I settled on 15 hours. [00:15:59] Mainly out of observation, I just said, "This is what seems to work."
Joyce and I actually throughout our entire married life have spent more than 15 hours a week on romantic dates. Now, I just did it not because I discovered that that was the right thing to do, but because that was something that I had done from the beginning.
So Joyce and I have been in love for 56 years now. We have romantic dates every day. Now that we're older, we have more time. So we probably spend 30 hours a week, maybe more than that, on romantic dates. Get out of the house, do something fun. We have a recreational experience, a lot of hugging and kissing, great conversation. We do it as a lifestyle.
Laura Dugger: Okay, I just want to clarify. When we're talking about these 15 hours of special dates, some people may assume that we're talking about the traditional date that comes to mind with a babysitter and time out of the house. [00:17:02] But what you're saying is actually way more realistic.
I know it's different for everyone listening, but in our situation, for example, our kids usually go to bed about two to three hours before we do. So if we're intentional with that time, that's our 15 hours for the week.
Or I know of some friends who do have older kids and they stay up later. So they get a sitter and go out for a few hours on a date, and then they connect for an hour over lunch every day. And then maybe they're chatting on the phone for 30 minutes during their commute. So if you sprinkle that in with other times, I think it is possible to add up to these 15 hours, regardless of life stage.
So getting a sitter and going out is definitely included but this is just intentional time with our spouse when our attention is undivided. So maybe a good place to start is with an inventory of how we are spending our time with our spouse. And I hope that clarifies what's included in these 15 hours. [00:18:06]
Dr. Willard Harley: Yes. When you're in love, that kind of thing is really easy to do. It's when you're not in love that you got to put a little energy into it to get yourself to a point where you're feeling romantic love. Then romantic dates are very, very easy to do. You know exactly what to do. The skill levels increase tremendously. But 15 hours is something that I consider to be kind of a minimum. If you really want to see a romantic relationship blossom.
Laura Dugger: I really like that as a starting point, because when we think about it, we have 168 hours a week, and 15 of those that comes out to less than 10 percent of our time. So I think as I'm processing this, I just want to reflect back on my past week and think of how much time Mark and I spent together and then really carve that out as, like you said, a bare minimum going forward. We're parents of four young children and I still would say we're not off the hook. [00:19:08] This is very realistic to reach these 15 hours if it's a priority.
Dr. Willard Harley: It is. And my argument has always been that if you've got four children, you really need to be in love because there's a lot of choices that are made. Life becomes complicated. You have a lot of conflicts of all kinds. And when you're in love, the whole experience is much more enjoyable.
When you're not in love. Then the conflicts become tragedy sometimes. A lot of people think that I'm being kind of superficial. They say, what about commitment? Isn't commitment important? And I do. I agree that commitment is important.
I talk about caring love and romantic love. Those are two different kinds of love. Caring love is a decision, romantic love is a reaction. It's a feeling. Caring love is something I can commit myself to. I call it goodwill. I want Joyce to be happy. [00:20:08] I want her to be successful. I will do what I can to make her life the best that I can do. And that's what caring love is. I've made the commitment. I offer her extraordinary care.
But even if I offer her extraordinary care, if I'm not giving her the care in the right places, she won't be in love with me. She can't make herself be in love with me. I have to do specific things for her to trigger her feeling of romantic love. She has no control over it whatsoever. Same thing is with me. I have no control over my romantic love for her. It's what she does for me.
So we can have all the caring love in the world. We can have the commitment to care for each other deeply. But if we don't know where to put that care, what priorities to use to make sure that the care that I give Joyce or what she needs the most and get to be really good at it, we both will care for each other for the rest of our lives and we will have a relationship that I'm sure the Lord would approve of, but we wouldn't be in love. [00:21:14] So there is a technical problem here for many couples that do care for each other.
What can we do so that we can be in love with each other? There is a scientific answer to that question. I'd say 20 percent of all couples are like Joyce and me and probably like you and your husband, that are in love and have a romantic relationship. That's what makes marriages really terrific.
Laura Dugger: I would agree with that. And I do just have to brag on my husband. I do think he's the most wonderful husband in the world and have always felt in love with him. We've been married just over 11 years, so not quite as long as you and Joyce.
One of our ongoing goals or things to keep top of mind every year is to invest a disproportionate amount of time in one another. So I think it's kind of like these romantic dates that you're talking about. And that return on investment is incredible and it affects all other areas of life. [00:22:15] So I guess I just want to affirm everything that you're saying.
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, thank you. I love to hear positive outcomes. Even though I've heard them all my life, every one of them is valuable to me. Every one of them makes me feel like I've been spending my life better doing this than I would have working on artificial intelligence.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage.
Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. [00:23:19]
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.
I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: Well, we've talked about different emotional needs, but then will you also share some of your examples of love busters, and maybe a few practical remedies that would be helpful?
Dr. Willard Harley: Okay, yeah. Love busters is the downside of marriage in the sense that when I think about extraordinary care, I'm thinking about making my wife happy. [00:24:20] But extraordinary care also deals with protection.
I am the most likely cause of Joyce's unhappiness. Why? Because I am so involved in everything that she does. I'm in a position to hurt her more than anybody else on earth. And if I do, she can't get away from me very easily because we're married. So as a commitment, as a way of showing her caring love, my goal is to avoid hurting her at all costs.
So there are six ways that I can hurt her. I can make demands. I can tell her what to do when it's good for me and bad for her. Number two, I can be disrespectful. I can judge her and consider her to be unworthy of my efforts. That's terribly hurtful in marriage. [00:25:23] It makes what I call massive love bank withdrawals. So no matter how much I might be doing to make love bank deposits, if I'm being disrespectful to her, I'm probably ending up making more love bank withdrawals.
Angry outbursts is another love buster. Then something that I used to have a real problem with, not with Joyce, but in general, I had a problem with my anger. And I learned how to completely overcome it so that I would never lose my temper with her. And I never have. Throughout my entire married life I've never lost my temper with her once.
Then there is dishonesty. Joyce and I have what we call radical honesty. Nothing gets by. There is no deception whatsoever.
Dishonesty is a terrible love buster. It does all sorts of horrible things in marriage because it gives you the wrong impression about each other. It creates what I call a secret second life where your spouse doesn't know something you're doing that would be terribly offensive. [00:26:23]
Honesty is an emotional need for women. The more honest you are in your relationship, the more love bank deposits you're making.
Then there is also annoying habits. Now, I happen to be a very annoying person. Now, you might not think of that way. Looking at my picture it doesn't look too annoying. But Joyce will tell you that I'm very annoying. Women in general find their husband having annoying habits.
A man has to learn how to accommodate those complaints. I take every one of her complaints seriously. I do not find her annoying at all. So if you make a list of annoying habits that she finds me annoying, it would be very long. Annoying habits for her, there's nothing on the sheet.
And a lot of men will say, look, because I don't find you annoying, you shouldn't find me annoying. We could go into this in great detail, but it has to do with women's brains. [00:27:24] Women are much more aware of their surroundings. They notice things more.
And so their husband will do something that is annoying, and the question is, should she just ignore it? And my point is, it's a love buster. You're withdrawing love units whenever you do that. And so I make a real effort to accommodate every one of her complaints. If she finds something I'm doing annoying, I try to adjust to that. And over a period of years, I've gotten real good at eliminating a lot of things on the list.
Then finally, there's independent behavior. Independent behavior is doing things as if your spouse doesn't exist. For example, for me just to go off and make a decision without consulting her, without considering her feelings, is a love buster. And it is the greatest cause of resentment in marriage.
Whenever a woman feels resentful toward her husband, it is because he has been engaging in independent behavior over the years, and he keeps doing it over and over again. [00:28:24] It's a huge obstacle to romantic love.
Anyway, those are the six love busters. And if you can eliminate all six, you have a clean shot to having a great romantic relationship.
Laura Dugger: I think that was incredibly helpful to hear some specific examples. So we won't go through all of them, but going back to the needs of each spouse, could you just give a few real-life examples of what that might look like to add deposits into the love bank?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, let's talk about intimate conversation, because intimate conversation is a huge issue for women. They want to be able to talk to their husbands. I talk about the friends of good conversation and the enemies of good conversation.
What is intimate conversation? It is, first of all, you're talking about each other. It's a personal conversation. You're talking about your favorite topics, things that you enjoy talking about the most. [00:29:25] You balance the conversation when you're talking. Both of you talk about the same amount of time, and you're giving each other undivided attention. That is what makes intimate conversation work.
Now, if you engage in demands, disrespect, anger, and dwelling on mistakes of the past, those are the enemies of intimate conversation. So, to the extent that you and your husband can actually sit down and talk, just to enjoy talking, which is, from my perspective, the backbone of a romantic relationship.
If you're in a romantic relationship, you are engaged in great conversation. Period. Now, there are other components. There's affection. There's sexual fulfillment. There's recreational companionship. But I would say that the thing that makes romantic relationships really romantic is the way people talk to each other in a romantic situation.
Laura Dugger: Putting all of this together, as we look at some of this honesty that you had been talking about and about not doing this independent behavior, it reminds me of a few policies that you've written about. [00:30:39] And I think it might be helpful just to state those as a summary. So, would you share the policy of joint agreement and the policy of radical honesty?
Dr. Willard Harley: Those are the two policies that come together to create what I call transparency. Transparency in marriage is extremely important. You are on the same page, that you're making your choices together, that you understand each other, and that you're operating as a team, not as two separate individuals.
So, the policy of joint agreement is never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. Now, I've gotten a lot of blowback on that one, especially for men. Do you mean to tell me I have to get my wife's permission to do everything? Can't I make some of my own choices? Can't I have my own friends? Can't I have my own hobbies? [00:31:39] Do you mean I'm kind of stuck with her all the time?
And I would say, yep, that's the way it's going to have to be. When you're married to somebody, that person has to become your partner. In Genesis, it says that the two become united. The two become one in Genesis chapter 3. The two become one.
In marriage, what God has intended for all of us is to benefit from each other's brains. Joyce's brain is very different than my brain. It's physically different. I used to teach neurophysiology, and I used to show a man's brain and a woman's brain. They're different. Men think differently. Women think differently.
And by combining the two brains into a joint agreement, in joint enthusiastic agreement, we're getting the wisdom of both people who have different perspectives. [00:32:39] We're back-to-back. Joyce looks out and sees the mountains. I, on the other hand, am seeing the ocean. The question is, which one of us is right? We're both right.
And as long as we understand that about each other, as long as we respect each other's perspectives and learn from those perspectives, the policy of joint agreement is not difficult to do. Coming to an enthusiastic agreement means that I respect her opinion and won't make any decisions until I have been able to understand how her opinion would affect the choices that we're supposed to make.
And by doing that, we make wiser choices. We make smarter choices to say nothing about the fact that when we make a decision, we're making love bank deposits in both of our love banks simultaneously.
So on the one hand, it's a practical rule, on the other hand, it's a caring rule. If I do something without her agreement, it means I'm being thoughtless. And so sometimes we need rules to help us from being selfish, and that's one of them. [00:33:40]
Now, the other one is the policy of radical honesty. Reveal everything you know about yourself, your history, your current behavior, current activities, your future plans, your emotional reactions. Reveal everything.
Now, most men will come to me and say, "Dr. Harley, you've got to be crazy. If I reveal everything to my wife, she will run in horror. I don't think good thoughts all the time. I say, Okay, here's the caveat. If it's disrespectful, don't tell her. If it's a judgment about her, don't tell her. Say that it bothers you. You wish it could be different. But don't judge her. Other than that, everything you're thinking she should know about.
Again, it gets rid of the secret second life. It gets rid of obstacles to transparency. She knows her husband. She knows what he thinks. She knows how he feels. And this man is totally different than anything she has ever felt. [00:34:46] Totally different. He is a different creature. And God made us differently. And God made us to help each other out.
Anyway, those two come together. Those two rules come together to create great decision-making, accommodation, care. It helps avoid selfishness in marriage. To me, they're two great rules.
When people are in love and when people care about each other, those two rules make a ton of sense. When they're having struggles, they have a problem with the rules. And the reason they're having struggles is because they're not following those rules.
Laura Dugger: Those two together really seem to usher in intimacy. And just to restate them, if somebody has your book, He Wins, She Wins, on page 122, you sum it up, and it's super practical. You say, "Give your spouse, your undivided attention a minimum of 15 hours a week, using the time to meet each other's emotional needs for affection, intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companionship." [00:35:52]
And then if somebody needs to hear it again, that policy of radical honesty, in case you want to listen to this message and maybe discuss it with your spouse, that policy says, "Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know. Your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future. I think that's a great starting point to lead to deeper intimacy in marriage.
Dr. Willard Harley: Yeah, it's a guideline. It's a help to get people started. When they're in a romantic relationship, these rules are much easier to follow, and they become almost instinctive. It's when you're not in a romantic relationship, and you want to get back to the romantic relationship that you once had you need the rules to get you there. But once you're there, the rules make a lot more sense.
Laura Dugger: Patreon can be a tricky thing to explain, so let me try to boil this down. [00:36:56] The time and financial investment our team gives to bring you all these episodes on The Savvy Sauce costs us hundreds of dollars and many hours each week. And we cannot fully cover that cost through advertisers and kickbacks from the purchases you make by ordering resources through our links. We do need other revenue streams to secure the future of this podcast.
One easy way you can participate and support the future of The Savvy Sauce is through becoming a patron. We want to make this possible for anyone listening, so we have two, five, and $20 levels available each month. You can sign up with a few clicks by visiting thesavvysauce.com, then you click the Patreon tab, and then follow the prompts after clicking "Join Patreon Here". Thank you for your generosity in partnering with us.
When it comes to communication and conflict resolution, how can couples begin to negotiate more successfully? [00:38:00]
Dr. Willard Harley: The real problem with communication in marriage is respect. To the extent that I respect Joyce's perspective, we have great communication. If I disrespect her perspective, if I try to talk her into my perspective and tell her that her perspective is wrong, we're going to have terrible communication.
So when it comes to problem-solving, the first thing you have to be able to do in learning how to communicate with each other is your conversation has to be pleasant and safe.
The love chapter, 1 Corinthians chapter 13, says very little about what you're supposed to do. It's mostly what you're not supposed to do in that chapter. But in verse 4, it talks about what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to be kind and patient.
That's what has to happen when you are talking to each other, especially if you have a conflict. You have to start with kindness and patience. [00:39:06] It has to be safe and enjoyable.
And then the next step is you have to understand each other's perspectives. "How do you feel? What do you think?" Having respect for a perspective that you don't agree with is perfectly okay. I can respect something that I say to Joyce, "I would like to know more about how you came up with that." And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. I'm sincerely interested in how she arrives at that conclusion based on her perspective.
And then if we have a conflict, then we need to brainstorm. "I know your perspective. I know my perspective. Now, how are the ways that we can resolve this?"
And then the policy of joint agreement is the deciding rule. Only things that we can both enthusiastically agree to are the things that we're going to actually settle on as a solution to the conflict. So great communication usually means great respect. Great respect for the other person's perspective and efforts on our parts not to be selfish and not to be judgmental. [00:40:08]
Laura Dugger: And I love that you bring in the biblical teaching because this is the way of love and also the way of wisdom because it makes me think of Proverbs 3 when wisdom is personified. And it says her ways are pleasant ways and all her paths are peace.
Dr. Willard Harley: Yes. And peace is such a big deal in marriage. Conflict is such a horrible thing. Conflict is okay if you think of conflict as we haven't yet arrived at a solution yet. That's okay. But if you think of conflict as fighting and arguing, then it turns what marriage should be into a nightmare.
Marriage can be the greatest experience of all time, and it can be the worst experience of all time, depending on how you communicate with each other. And this is where, you know, I do spend quite a bit of time encouraging people to resolve their conflicts with respect.
I'm not alone on that. Lots of people, lots of marital therapists will agree with me on that. [00:41:13] But where I differ is that in creating romantic love, it's much easier to resolve your conflicts with mutual care. Also, if you're not in love, you'll find that you're going to tend to argue a lot more.
So when you're not in love, you've got to follow my rules more carefully because your selfishness will tend to ruin everything. But once you're in love, it's really much easier to do all of these things that I recommend.
Laura Dugger: Well, Dr. Harley, you're laying out an incredible vision, really, of godly and biblical marriage. And so are there any questions that we can begin to ask ourselves or our spouse to get on the right path toward making our marriage even better?
Dr. Willard Harley: There are three questionnaires that I offer on the marriagebuilders.com website in the questionnaire section that I think couples should be filling out every once in a while. Some people I counsel, even though their marriages are really great, they still fill it out every two or three years. [00:42:16]
And that's the emotional needs questionnaire that we've talked about. What are your spouse's top emotional needs? Because in the emotional needs questionnaire is embedded a section that has to do with helpful ideas. In other words, what could you do to meet this emotional need better than it's already being met?
The second questionnaire is a love busters questionnaire. What are we doing to hurt each other and what can we do to avoid that?
Then the third is what I call the marital problem analysis. And what you do there is you prioritize the problems that you have. When you filled out the emotional needs questionnaire, which emotional needs need to be worked on? And when you fill out the love busters questionnaire, which love busters need to be worked on?
Well, marital problem analysis prioritizes each of these things. So now we know where to put our effort to make our marriage better. So in a sense, what I've done is I've just given couples what marriage counselors do, which is they do an analysis of the problem. [00:43:20] You come in to see me, first thing I want to know is, what are your problems? What should we work on?
Well, these three questionnaires actually do that for you. So you can figure it out for yourself. And if you need more help, once these questionnaires are filled out, my book, His Needs, Her Needs, deals with the emotional needs part, Love Busters deals with the love busters part. And as you mentioned, He Wins, She Wins, talks about how to resolve conflicts better.
Laura Dugger: We will always link to all of these resources and eventually to your website in the show notes and Resources tab of our website. So we focused on marriage today, so I know we're not going to do this topic justice. But will you just whet our appetite to learn more from your book, His Needs, Her Needs for Parents?
Dr. Willard Harley: Yeah. His Needs, Her Needs for Parents is a book that I wrote to remind a couple that once you have children, it's very tempting to stop meeting each other's emotional needs. [00:44:26] The number one year for divorce is the first year. And you might expect that because, you know, you get married and maybe you didn't understand what this person was all about. And so the divorce in the first year is very common.
But the second most likely year for divorce is the year that the first child is born. That is tragic. That is absolutely tragic. And the reason for that is for many couples, what they were doing to maintain a romantic relationship prior to the birth of the first child, they stopped doing.
And so my book, His Needs, Her Needs for Parents is a reminder that the romantic relationship needs to go ahead after you have children for the sake of the children. Because if you fall out of love, if you're not meeting your emotional needs, you will be tempted to actually get a divorce. [00:45:26]
And even if you're not having a divorce, your relationship will be miserable, which is not the way your children should be seeing you. Your children should be seeing loving, caring husbands that care for each other the way the Lord wanted us to care for each other and that hug and kiss in the kitchen. Children love that. They want to see that. And if a husband and wife are arguing all the time, that's something you don't want to see in the children.
So my book, His Needs, Her Needs for Parents, is just to remind people, prioritize your relationship. Then I also have a section in there on what I call quality family time, which is, Okay, if you're going to spend time with your family, what should you be doing?
And it's a very important point that I make. I make it both in His Needs, Her Needs and also in this book. And that is that you want to teach your children values. And if you have quality family time where you're together as a family every week with the purpose of teaching values of thoughtfulness, those children are going to be much easier to raise, a lot less discipline, more enjoyment, more happiness, and everybody's going to be getting along. [00:46:40] Without that intervention, you find your kids fighting all the time and making your life miserable.
And then I have a section in His Needs, Her Needs for Parents just about ADHD, in-laws, blended families. So things that people have trouble with as an addendum to the book.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. And you and Joyce have raised how many children?
Dr. Willard Harley: We have only two. I wanted 10. But she said, Nope. She's an only child, and she likes having two children. Our two children now have two children and they have children of their own. So now we are great-grandparents three times, one more along the way. So almost four great-grandchildren.
Laura Dugger: Wow. That's incredible, incredible legacy. I have enjoyed this conversation through and through. [00:47:42] If anyone wants to learn more from you, where's the best place we can direct them?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, MarriageBuilders.com is our website. Joyce and I do a podcast every day. Actually, the program is on 20 radio stations right now. But you can get to podcasts with an app. Go to Marriage Builders Radio at the App Store — it's free of charge —download it, you'll hear our daily podcast. We have callers that call in, and we deal with topics. We have emails that come in regularly. And it's a daily program.
So that's another way to reach us is through our Marriage Builders Radio program, a podcast just like you have.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will try to make that as easy as possible to find on our website for today's episode, all of the show notes included. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. [00:48:42] And so as my final question for you today, Dr. Harley, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, you know, the whole question of what does it take to have a great marriage seems intuitive. You know, I mean, all the things that I've been telling you, what you need to do is treat each other with extraordinary care. That's not rocket science. That seems intuitive. It seems like common sense. Treat each other with extraordinary care.
Why don't people do that? It's just crazy. I look at my whole theory that I've created, romantic love and all the rest of that, and it just seems to be based on such common sense.
And people have told me that. And my argument has always been, well, then if it's such common sense, why do I get so much blowback from people? And so all I can tell people is that from a practical standpoint, it works. [00:49:41]
When I got married, all of these ideas that I am now proposing to other people were ideas that I had already accepted. I believe in extraordinary care as the foundation for marriage. Why doesn't everybody? Why do I have to teach people how to do this?
Of course, the answer is that we all have different perspectives on things. And just because one person has a perspective doesn't mean that that perspective shouldn't have to be taught to somebody. So for one person, it's common sense. For another person, it's something new.
Laura Dugger: Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this. You've been so generous with your time and your knowledge. I appreciate how you live this out with Joyce every day. So thank you for being my guest today, Dr. Harley.
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, I enjoyed being with you, Laura, and we hopefully will make connections with each other in the future. It looks to me like you're doing a great service for people, and I want to encourage you in what you're doing. [00:50:42]
Laura Dugger: Aw, thank you so much.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:51:43] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:52:43]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:53:46] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Thursday Oct 15, 2020
Thursday Oct 15, 2020
116. Abundance in Motherhood with Kara-Kae James
**Transcription Below**
John 10:10b (ESV) “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.”
Kara-Kae James is an author, speaker and podcaster who is passionate about seeing women’s lives changed and impacted through the gospel. She helps women find their place in big conversations and develop a true and honest faith. She is the host of “Asking for a Friend”, a weekly podcast that helps women navigate challenging topics about themselves, the church and the world. She is the author of the book “Mom Up: Thriving with Grace in the Chaos of Motherhood”, co-author of the Bible Studies Series: Abundance, Freedom and Rest, and author of “Together”, a journal that helps connect moms and their kids in an intentional way. Kara-Kae is married to her husband Brook of 12 years, and mom of four.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Rhythms of Renewal by Rebekah Lyons
The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer
Sacred Rhythms by Ruth Haley Barton
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Parabo Press(Use the code SAVVY before Dec. 31st, 2020 to receive a free set of twenty of their bestselling 4" Square Prints)
Try affordable, safe, and convenient online counseling here with one of our sponsors! (Sign up through this link to receive 10% off your first month)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Parabo Press is a photo printing service that wants to help you hold on to life's moments, big and small. They're offering a special freebie when you use the code SAVVY at checkout. Visit them at www.parabo.press. That's parabo.press.
Kara-Kae James is our guest today. She's going to share more about her path from postpartum anxiety to fully enjoying God's abundance. She's going to share helpful resources, rhythms, and mindsets that are currently helping her thrive.
She also is going to give us a behind-the-scenes picture of what the life of a writer looks like because she's been blogging for decades and released her first book, Mom Up, in 2019.
Here's our chat. [00:01:19]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara-Kae.
Kara-Kae James: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start with your story. Will you share why you describe motherhood as the mess of your life?
Kara-Kae James: Sure. So, kids are crazy, they're out of control and everything's a mess, but it's just the best mess, isn't it? I think it's hard for me a lot of times to be okay with that. I'm a perfectionist. I like things in order. I have four kids, so everything is always crazy and always messy. But at the end of the day, when I really consider what matters most and what's most important, I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change anything.
Laura Dugger: Yes, I can relate to so much of what you're saying there. Going back a little bit in motherhood, will you just share more of that story, what that looked like, and if it was at all what you expected? [00:02:19]
Kara-Kae James: Yeah. So, my oldest is 10. When I first became a mom to her 10 years ago, it wasn't anything like I expected. She was a challenging baby. She had colic, and she didn't sleep at all. It was just a million things were thrown at me at once.
My husband and I knew we wanted to have a few kids and I just wanted to get it over with. I hated being pregnant. So, we decided, let's just have them really quick and really close together. So we ended up having three in less than three years. So, my oldest was still two when I had my third baby.
My body was just wrecked from that and my mind was wrecked from that. So, I went into a really hard season of postpartum anxiety, depression. It was a huge challenge. I had never struggled with any kind of mental issues, mental health problems. I had never experienced anything like that. [00:03:20]
Before I walked through that season, I probably would have said, like, it's all in your head. You know, I would have thought that about people that struggle with mental health. Now I know very differently and really understand the science behind what goes on in your mind and how that can really, really make a difference in every aspect of your life.
I joke now that I don't remember my third baby's first year of her life because I was so just checked out. I wasn't present at all. It was a struggle to really do anything.
And so, that was a huge challenge because I anticipated motherhood to look a lot like the pictures you see on Instagram, the movies, the things that you see about motherhood that are just perfect. Everything seems to fall into place.
But it wasn't that way at all for me. I didn't feel equipped. I didn't feel like a good mom. There's still so many days that I'm like, I am not a very good mom. [00:04:20] I'm not great with my kids, especially in seasons like this where we're like, do we have to teach our kids at home? I am not equipped for this. I was not prepared to be a homeschool parent, you know, things like that. It's just something that continues to wreck me and bring me to my knees because I feel very unequipped for it.
Laura Dugger: I'm wondering if there's any mom listening who would say that her experience is any different. I have yet to meet someone who feels like they're a natural at this.
Kara-Kae James: Yeah. And we feel like we look at everybody else and we think, well, they haven't figured out, so what am I doing wrong? But it's really not the case.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I appreciate you just being honest and sharing about postpartum anxiety. Was it something that at the time... did you recognize it?
Kara-Kae James: Not at first. I started noticing that I wasn't feeling great, and I thought, "Oh, it's just hormone. My body's just getting back to normal, so hormones are kind of out of whack." [00:05:22] And then I started getting very angry. That was kind of the first sign for me.
This is a story I share a lot, and it's funny. I never shared this story until I wrote my book about my journey through motherhood. I was really upset one day because my 2-year-old daughter at the time she couldn't put her toys away correctly, you know, because she's 2. And I got really angry and upset. And I'm not typically an angry person, but it just all came out.
I took a sippy cup of apple juice, and I just hurled it against the wall. I was so upset over this. Of course, my little toddlers are looking at me like, Our mom has gone crazy. Like, what is wrong with this woman?
I think it was that moment that I realized something's wrong here. I'm not doing okay. And that was the day I told my husband, "I think something's wrong. I think I need to talk to somebody." And I did, and that was very helpful.
But it can be really hard to admit I don't feel like myself. [00:06:22] I struggle with saying that, with saying I'm not doing okay. And I know most women do.
Laura Dugger: Yes, but I'm thinking of maybe the new mom who's listening today. Could you give any examples of what it might look like or when it's a wise time to reach out and tell somebody, I might need a little bit more support here?
Kara-Kae James: Yeah, that's a good question. I would say always find a safe person to talk to, whether... for me, that's my husband. He's the person that I can go to and say anything without judgment. You know, whatever that looks like, if it's a sister, if it's your mom, if it's... maybe it is your doctor. Maybe you feel more comfortable talking to them. But finding that safe place that you can say, okay, something feels off.
But paying really close attention to your body, to your mind. And we don't always do that when we're taking care of other people. So that can become really challenging that we don't want to take the time to worry about us because we have this baby to take care of and we want to focus on that. [00:07:26]
But I think it's so important for us to focus on ourselves, make sure we are as healthy as we can be so we can be more present for them, so we can be fully involved.
Laura Dugger: That's really just a great reminder to check in, how are we doing emotionally, how are we doing physically. But then in your book, you also talk about the spiritual side when you mention how we moms can be easy targets for our enemy to try and bring down. Will you just share your thoughts on that topic?
Kara-Kae James: Yeah. So we're easy to bring down because a lot of times we kind of run the show. I mean, everybody looks to mom for the temperature of the room to see how things are going. So many times the enemy can use that against us. It can bring strife into our families.
If we're having a bad day, most of the time everybody else around us is going to have a bad day because it's very difficult for us to handle our emotions a lot of times, especially if you are a new mom and you're struggling with all these emotions of dealing with new hormones and all the things because that just gets crazy. [00:08:36]
But I think the enemy will think, okay, if I can take her out, then everybody else just falls. So we have to be very on guard to protect ourselves, protect our marriage, to protect our kids.
The enemy just puts these crazy thoughts in our head with guilt and shame trying to tell us that we didn't do enough today, that we weren't enough. We didn't do that certain thing just right. And so we go through all these scenarios in our head of how should I have done that better? I'm a bad mom because I did this thing. Or maybe for a working mom, she deals with a lot of guilt of leaving her kids to go to work or whatever that may look like.
And so the enemy uses those awful messages that get stuck in our head against us. It can really, really hurt us in so many ways.
Laura Dugger: How did you battle that on the days that you were especially just exhausted and weary?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, men. [00:09:36] A lot of it for me was just filling my heart and my mind with scripture. Because even on those days, especially if I couldn't even physically open my Bible, I was so tired, I could listen, though, to the Bible on audio.
Sometimes I would like throw my little ones in the car, go for a drive, drive through and get a coffee or whatever that might look like, and turn on an audio Bible that I could just listen to, take a minute to breathe, turn a movie on for the kids or whatever that looks like just to have that moment.
And a lot of it for me has always been getting out of the circumstance that you're in, just the current situation. So for me, it's like if I was having a really hard day, I was beating myself up a lot, I'm listening to these lies, I just need to hop in the car and go for a drive or maybe just go outside and go for a walk if it's a nice day. Just change your location, mix things up a bit, and not allow the enemy to continue to tell you those things. [00:10:36]
Finding ways to fight back against those thoughts and make that a constant practice. You know, maybe for you, it's putting scripture verses up on your mirror or on your fridge or wherever it is maybe in your house that you struggle.
Maybe you struggle feeling guilt or shame when you walk into the kitchen because you snack in excess. That's something that I struggle with a lot. When I was raising a lot of young kids, I just kind of went to food as an outlet. So instead of feeling that shame, put up scripture verses or whatever that may look like, just to remind yourself that God loves you and He sees you and you aren't forgotten.
Laura Dugger: You also had mentioned that he can start to creep in with guilt. How do you see the enemy using guilt as a lie in our lives?
Kara-Kae James: I think the enemy uses that on moms probably more than anything, especially now that we have such easy access to the internet, to social media, to all these things and images that show us what motherhood is supposed to look like. [00:11:44] I mean, I'm doing air quotes right now. You can't see them, but it's supposed to look this way, you know?
And so we are getting all these messages of all the things we are supposed to do as a mom. And we just can't. We can't measure up. And so the enemy loves to use that to tear us down by putting those messages of guilt in our minds. And we just have to fight against it.
For me personally, just an example, I'm not a homeschool mom. I'm terrible at teaching my kids. When we have been stuck home and they've had to learn from me, it's just not a way that I am gifted. There are moms out there that do such a great job with this. If you do a great job with this, I might just have to send my kids over to you because they need something that I can't give them.
I just had to come to the realization that, Okay, God did not give me that gift of teaching and having the patience to sit with kids. And that's okay. I'm not going to sit and wallow in that and feel guilty about that. [00:12:45]
I even have open conversations with my kids about it. "Hey, I know I am never going to be as good as some of your teachers are. So I'll be patient with you, you be patient with me and we'll work together." And we'll learn some things together because doing like fifth-grade math is impossible for me these days. It just is a little out of my range of giftings.
Figuring out where our giftings are, what God has blessed us with that we can then do with our children, do for our children. So we don't allow that guilt to creep in because when you get to the end of the day and you start feeling guilty, well, I told my daughter I would play that game with her but I didn't because I ended up having an extra meeting for work, just shut that down.
Don't allow that guilt to come in because it can just ruin you, and then the next day it just leaks in and leaks in and you're like, Oh, I still didn't do this thing I said I would do. Or whatever that may look like for you. I found that having those great open conversations with my kids, you know, even when they're little, to say, "Oh, you know, mommy, so sorry. [00:13:51] I did not get a chance to sit and build Lego towers with you or whatever. But we'll get to that. What's something that I can do to make that up to you?" Or, you know, things like that just to show them that you're not perfect.
That's something that's hard for me but I have to show them that I am vulnerable and I want to be authentic with them in that to say, Mom messed up, but I'll do my best. We'll keep making strides and just not allow the guilt to be a part of the narrative.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Parabo Press is a photo printing service that wants to share in your joy, celebrate your story, and bring your favorite memories forward. The pictures piling up on your phone are like your very own buried treasure, and Parabo Press is here to help you uncover them.
You can make really unique, high quality prints, photo books, and more through Parabo's website on your phone or computer, wherever you store your photo files. [00:14:54]
Here's the best part. Parabo wants you to check them out. So they're giving you a free set of 20 of their bestselling four-inch square prints. Use the code Savvy at checkout when you visit www.parabo.press before December 31st of 2020.
Don't let your best family moments get lost in the digital screen. Turn them into beautiful prints and fill your space with joy. Parabo's prints are super high quality, but still affordably priced.
From classic four-by-six prints to photo calendars to giant three-by-four-foot wall hangings that just start at $25, their prints are sure to fit your style and budget. Pick up your first set of square prints for free with our code Savvy and try them out today for yourself. Visiting www.parabo.press. That's parabo.press. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:15:57]
Laura Dugger: How did God start to give you a vision for enjoying the available abundance where you were rather than giving into this scarcity mindset?
Kara-Kae James: So abundance was something that... it was one of those words that always felt really unattainable for me because I felt like I had to do so much to measure up. And I began to really look at that word and what that meant in scripture when Jesus said, "I came to give you life and give it to you in abundance." Okay, what does that mean? Do I have to do a certain amount of things?
The great reality of that is He offers that freely to us. It's a gift that He gives us. So we don't have to live in a place of trying to measure up just to get what He's offering. He's giving us a free gift and we would be crazy not to take it. And so when we allow ourselves to step into that and actually accept it, our lives can completely change. [00:16:57]
I will always notice days or weeks that I am getting into that scarcity mindset where I'm trying to take control of my time, I'm trying to pull at all the things and control everything. And I realize, oh, I'm just running. It's like I'm running on this hamster wheel and I'm exhausted and I can't get anything done. And then I take a step back and say, "God, this isn't abundance. This is just me trying to work and do all of the things." And when I step back and say, give me this abundance, then everything changes.
So for me, it looks like I'm more refreshed. I'm more dedicated to my work. I have just a clear mind. I have more joy. There's so many things that come with that.
When you look at the fruits of the spirit, all these things that God gives you, love, joy, peace, you really do feel those things when you're walking in the abundance that he offers. [00:17:55]
Laura Dugger: For you, it sounds like it was a mindset shift. And then were there any other practical things or changes in your schedules or breaks you took?
Kara-Kae James: For sure. Oh, absolutely. Really, the big thing for me was waking up every morning and immediately setting my mind right. Because especially when my kids were little, I would not get a good night's sleep, of course, and then I would be tired. And I would dread waking up in the morning because it was just this like, Oh, here we go again. I have to do this all over again today. I have to wipe everybody's face and rear and do all these dishes and clean up a thousand messes. And I was dreading it.
Once I started really asking God, okay, if you want to show me abundance, what is that going to look like practically? And for me, it was shifting my mindset every morning when I woke up saying, "I get to do this today. This is a gift that I get to get up and do this. I'm privileged that I get to spend this time with my kids." [00:19:00]
Because I had quit my job after my first daughter was born and was able to stay home with them for years. And then now I work from home. But I've always been here. I've always been around. And just realizing what a gift that is. That I'm here when they wake up. I'm here when they go to bed. And I get those little moments with them. So shifting my mind and reminding myself I get to do this, not I have to do this.
Laura Dugger: I'll just read one quick quote from your book where you say, "Living an abundant life isn't something we put on hold until our kids are grown. We are to follow Jesus right here right now. And when we do, we experience abundance."
Kara-Kae James: I think I was convinced that abundant life was something that would come when my kids were older or when they were out of the house. Because that seemed like something that, well, my husband could probably experience that. People without kids could experience it. [00:19:58]
Because when you are just in the middle of the craziness with kids, you don't feel like you have anything special. You're constantly covered in whatever spill is on you. And you're probably wearing three-day-old pants. And you never know what it's going to look like. So realizing that you can have it right in the middle of that is such a joy.
Laura Dugger: We are now accepting advertisers for 2021. We cannot think of anyone we would rather promote than you, our devoted listener. For pricing and details, please reach out to us through social media at The Savvy Sauce on Instagram or Facebook. Lauren from our team can connect with you there. Otherwise, I, Laura, would love to chat with you through email if you email us at info@thesavvysauce.com. We hope we get to partner with you and promote your brand in 2021.
So another part of your book that we've been talking about called Mom Up, in it, you describe four themes that God has revealed to you in order to thrive in motherhood. [00:21:02] And one of those is rest. So can you share what you've learned about the way to truly experience soul deep rest?
Kara-Kae James: It's interesting because I wrote this book two years ago. It's been a while now. I have learned so much more. And while, yes, that is still so true, I have so much more now that I could share and put a whole other book about rest and what that looks like. Because when I did write it, that was one of the hardest things for me to write about because I knew it in my mind. And I finally have figured out how to put it into practice and it has completely transformed me.
So I love the idea of rest because God sets this example for us. He rested. Jesus set the example for us. He rested. But for me as a mom that was busy running from one thing to the next, I was struggling with rest. And so I kind of saw these two sides to rest. [00:22:01]
The world would tell us, hey, go get a manicure and you will feel refreshed as a mom. Go drive through and get a cup of coffee and that will do it for you, you'll feel refreshed. But then we have this other side looking at the example that God sets for us. Jesus wasn't running into Starbucks. He was getting away by Himself and spending time with His father. So what does that mean for us?
Those indulgences, those things like that that we enjoy, He's given us those. They're not bad things if you're going to get a coffee, if you're going to get a manicure. I'm not saying like you should never do that. I love doing those things. But if that's the only thing we're doing, then we're missing. We're missing a big piece of it.
So this rhythm that I have gotten into over about the last year... my husband and I started talking about taking a Sabbath and we were reading some books on it and studying on rest more. And it just became so clear we are really not doing rest well. [00:23:03] We're not doing it like we thought we should.
We decided as a family we are just going to take a Sabbath one day a week. And so we started doing this practice. Every Saturday is our Sabbath. Our kids know this. My husband and I typically will sleep in on Saturdays and we will get up... We both usually go plop on the couch and read a book and we will go swim or go play outside. Or we'll just lay around and just maybe play a game with the kids.
But it's just a day that we take that we slow down. We don't open our computers. We don't work. We try to put our phones away as much as possible. And it just has created this completely different rhythm for us. Because we were both working seven days a week and it was taking a toll on our kids because, you know, they were getting very weary with, Oh, mom and dad are always working. They're always busy. [00:24:01]
Now we put more work into our week, into the six days. Or typically I work five days down, which seems like just a normal concept that most people should do. But I will work harder in those days, more efficiently, looking forward to and working for my rest because I know it's coming. And all week I'm like, Oh, okay, so today is Wednesday. I have this many days until my rest day. And I'm so excited. And so I'm going to get these things done because I can't wait to just be able to rest and truly take time to turn off my mind that is spinning all the time and be able to sit and enjoy the gifts that God's given me, enjoy some time with Him that is just not rushed, not interrupted. And it has completely changed my view of what rest looks like.
The great thing about this for me as a mom is that I'm modeling this for my kids. [00:25:01] We talk about Sabbath. We talk about what that looks like. I hope that my kids will grow into this being a habit for them and that they will learn how to rest well.
Laura Dugger: That one full day of rest altogether actually re-energizes all of the other days of work.
Kara-Kae James: It does. It is so amazing how just shifting one day of your week completely transforms every other day. It's incredible.
Laura Dugger: And you mentioned that there were some books. What are the ones that you and your husband had gone through?
Kara-Kae James: One of the first ones was Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. My husband's a pastor and so we work in ministry and this was written by a pastor. So a lot of it spoke to us of you're working all the time. He talked about the importance of taking a Sabbath, taking time to rest, especially when you're working in ministry because you can't pour into your people if you are just completely worn out. [00:26:01] So that was very helpful.
I'm reading a book right now that I really am enjoying. It's called Sacred Rhythms. It's great and talks about these kinds of things. I also really liked Rhythms of Renewal by Rebecca Lyons where she talked a lot about this, of just the rhythms that her family got into that helped them.
Because a lot of her story was dealing with some mental health things. And that was the case for me too. I found myself just really struggling with anxiety about a year ago. Again, I had gone through the postpartum anxiety, but then here I was, it was about six or seven years later and it all came back up.
I had been fine for a while and all this anxiety came back up and I just realized I'm not taking time to rest. I'm not allowing my body and my mind to be renewed and I needed that.
Laura Dugger: That book. I would second that one. Rebecca Lyons is a wonderful author. The other one... are you talking about Sacred Rhythms by Ruth Haley Barton? [00:27:01]
Kara-Kae James: That's the one. Yes.
Laura Dugger: I haven't read that yet. So will you tell us a little bit of what you're learning and if you would recommend that too?
Kara-Kae James: Yes, I definitely would. I'm probably halfway through it right now, but she just talks through all these different rhythms, spiritual rhythms and practices of a Sabbath and discernment and prayer, lament and things like that. Like she just goes through some of these practices that are so important for us that I think sometimes we overlook. So, yeah, I have really enjoyed that book.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm appreciating all these resources you're sharing. I'd love to know just in general what other resources and habits or rhythms have benefited you as a Jesus follower.
Kara-Kae James: The rhythm of rest has been huge for me. It's crazy because with us in the season of COVID and everything being so different, I have actually had more of a rhythm than I typically do because I'm not running kids to school. [00:28:01] I'm not running here doing this.
And so I've actually been able to implement more of a morning routine, which has been very healthy for me. I get up, I make my coffee, I sit down with my Bible. And I've just been able to slow down more, which has been such a great practice and rhythm for me.
I'm more of a night owl and early mornings are always a bit of a struggle for me. But as a mom, I wanted my kids to see, Oh, mom gets up early and she reads her Bible every day and she takes her morning slow before she gets into her work.
And because I work from home, they walk by my desk a hundred times a day. So I want them to see that. It's those little things that I want to put those values into my kids, that when they are grown, they look back and remember... what do you remember about your mom? Oh, well, she always got up early. She had a cup of coffee and she read her Bible and then she worked. And sometimes she'd take a break from work and she'd play with me or, you know, whatever that looks like. [00:29:02]
So those kinds of rhythms have been extremely helpful for me and finding good balance and really being able to be more present with my family.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's talk about your profession of speaking and writing for a bit. What did your process look like to publish your first book?
Kara-Kae James: Well, my kids were a lot younger then. So that was interesting. They're a lot more self-sufficient now, but I had a lot of help from... my husband is a huge support system for me. I would just have to sometimes take days that I would get away for the whole day and just go sit and write.
Logistically, when I was writing the book, I had two in elementary school and then I had two in preschool. And so my two younger ones, they would go to preschool only two days a week and they only for five hours. So I had 10 hours every week with no kids and I would write, write, write until my hands were falling off. [00:30:05] My fingers were raw from banging on the keyboard. I would just go as fast as I can and get as much done as I could because I knew I wasn't going to have much time.
And then I would take some Saturdays and things like that to be able to get away and focus. But it's definitely not an easy process with little ones, but well worth it.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love hearing you say that. Why do you think it was well worth it?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, I'm really grateful that I wrote in that season. It was interesting going into that, writing a book for moms when I had young kids. I was kind of worried about what people would think. Will they even read my book? Because I mean, it's not a parenting book. It's a book to encourage moms.
So I'm not ever going to give parenting advice. I don't ever want to give parenting advice. I don't think I'm the person for that, but I think just being able to encourage other moms when I am still in the thick of it is so valuable. [00:31:07]
Because there's something about hearing from somebody who's really in the trenches with you of, "Hey, I'm with you. I hear you. I see you. And I want to uplift you in this place that we are in together" versus someone whose kids are in there... you know, they're grown, they're out of the house, and they've been an empty nester for 10 years and now they're going to write to you about thriving in motherhood.
Sometimes you miss things and not because you always look back on things and remember the best moments. You know it was hard. But there's something about hearing from someone who's next to you rather than someone who's ahead of you. So that was really my goal. And that was to take the time in those hard years and write and learn. And I learned and grew so much through that process of writing.
Laura Dugger: That's so neat. I can just see that cycle where it would energize your mother. So how did you move that forward to get a publisher and gain a following?
Kara-Kae James: I had been blogging. [00:32:09] I started blogging back in college like 15 to 20 years ago. So I've always been a writer. I always wanted to write books and knew that was something that I was passionate about.
I was very blessed because I had an agent reach out to me about four years ago and said, "Hey, I found your platform. Would you ever be interested in writing a book?" And of course, I'm like, "Yes, please. Where do I sign on the dotted line because let's do this."
So I was very grateful for the opportunity because the publishing world is definitely not easy. It's definitely not quick. But I am so grateful to have made the connection with my agent when I did and getting to know people online and building relationships with them.
Because I've always been really passionate about online ministry. I've always said that I'm all about creatively reaching people for Jesus. So I'm always looking for creative ways to share and to teach. [00:33:12] So for me, a lot of that's been social media. Yeah. I'm just grateful for the way that journey has gone.
Laura Dugger: Are there any exciting opportunities that presented themselves since you published your book?
Kara-Kae James: I did go to Focus on the Family and did an interview with them, which was really fun. I've gotten to travel a few times to go do some media interviews like that, which is always great to get to go travel by yourself is one of my favorite things to do. So getting a break for a couple of days and getting away is so much fun.
And just getting to meet some amazing people throughout the journey, whether it's at a conference or, you know, online through podcasting and these types of things.It has been just such a joy.
Laura Dugger: What would you say are the best lessons that you've learned through this journey of speaking and writing and publishing?
Kara-Kae James: I would say learning to be patient, which is not easy because I think we're all about that instant gratification. [00:34:16] We want to write a book. Okay, well we want it now and we want it to happen at our time on our timetable. And that doesn't really happen in the publishing world. Things go so slow.
I was just telling someone today... we were talking about publishing and I said, "Yeah, from the time of signing with my agent to the time my book came out, it was like three and a half years. So those things are a long process, but it makes the work so much better to take the time to put in so much work into it.
And so while in the moment, you know, you're like, "I just want my book on the shelf. I just wanted my work out there." But being patient through the process has really taught me that waiting for the best thing is good because in the end, it's going to be a much better product than you ever imagined that it could be.
Laura Dugger: I think that's a helpful recommendation if there's anyone listening who's an up and coming communicator. [00:35:17] So thanks for sharing that. Is there anything else that you've learned since writing that book that you would add now if you could go back and put more in?
Kara-Kae James: I think what we talked about about rest, I think that that would be the thing. Because that has been a huge lesson that I've learned over the last couple of years is really figuring out what rest looks like for me. And so maybe I'll write about that in a book someday.
Laura Dugger: Yeah. Looking forward to the second one. You mentioned that you've connected with people from all over the world. So how have those friendships come about?
Kara-Kae James: One way that I really love is I'm a part of an organization called Called Creatives. It's basically online training and coaching community for women who are writers and speakers. So it's a great opportunity to connect with other people who are doing the same thing you're doing.
And just finding communities like that. There's tons of places like that that you can connect with people. There's Facebook groups. Just connecting with people online. Sending somebody a DM and saying, Hey, I love your work. Let's chat. [00:36:25] And just making a connection with somebody who's similar to you and doing things that you are really excited about. That's just been something that has been huge for me.
And through that, in the last six months, I started a mastermind group, which is just a group of their six women that we are all kind of in the same stage of our careers. And so we meet every couple of weeks, we talk through ideas, we support each other, we pray for each other. And it's just a huge encouragement to have these women that get it.
Because in my personal life where I live and the ministry that we do at our church, I don't really have anyone that understands what it's like to be a writer, a speaker and those kinds of things. So I think it's really important to find those like-minded women who are doing the work you're doing. So you can not only just pray for each other and be a support system, but be able to talk through hard things and go through ideas with them and bounce things off of them. [00:37:27] Because that is very important too.
Laura Dugger: That is such wise counsel. I really love all of those ideas. With your own podcast, I know your desire is to provide a safe space to engage in tough topics.
Kara-Kae James: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: And so I'd love to hear, what questions are you currently wrestling through?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, so many. Every week on my podcast I pick a different question and talk through it with someone. I learn a lot about the world and what it looks like and what people are struggling with.
Something that's been really eye-opening to me recently is things like immigration and poverty and what people are actually going through and what that looks like and how we as the church can step up and make change and support people and love people the way that Jesus did and really beginning to step into what that looks like. So that has been a huge part of why I'm passionate about that. [00:38:27]
And just really having the... creating the space in your life to ask questions and wrestle through things I think is incredibly important. It deepens your relationship with God. I used to think, "Oh, if I ask questions, it would make me sound like I was a skeptic." That's not the case. It makes you more wise. That is the important thing is that we're chasing after wisdom.
God wants us to ask the questions. He wants us to wrestle because He's always there to answer and to lead us through those things we struggle with.
Laura Dugger: And if somebody else has some similar questions or if they want to go hear some of those episodes on different questions they're having, where would you point them online?
Kara-Kae James: Everything basically that I do is on my website at KaraKaeJames.com. So my podcast is there, books, everything.
Laura Dugger: Okay. We will link to that in our show notes and on our resources tab of our website. Kara-Kae, I just have one final question for you. [00:39:28]
Kara-Kae James: Okay.
Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, lately it has been keto ice cream. Okay. So I started keto back in like January. Doing things like this is very challenging for me. I found an ice cream because I'm a big sugar person, I love sugar, but I've tried to cut out all sugar. And the ice cream is keto-friendly. So I'm so happy. Every day I just go get a few spoonfuls of it and it brings me joy. And I'm so thankful for it.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So what is the name of it?
Kara-Kae James: That's a great question. I found it at Aldi. If you have an Aldi near you... I don't even remember what the brand is, but it just says keto really big on it. It has kind of a weird texture, but if you can get over that, the flavor's good, and I enjoy it. It hits my sweet tooth that I always need. [00:40:31]
Laura Dugger: Yes. Can relate to that for sure. Well, that's so fun. You've shared so many tips and tricks with us today, and I hope people can check out your book Mom Up, but thank you for giving us your time and thanks for being my guest.
Kara-Kae James: Oh, absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:41:31]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. [00:42:33] In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:36]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 12, 2020
Monday Oct 12, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* There is some thematic material and we do not recommend listening in the presence of little ears.
115. From Addiction to Christian Minimalism with Becca Ehrlich
**Transcription Below**
Luke 12:34 (NIV) “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
Becca Ehrlich is an ordained pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and a doctoral student with a focus on Christian Spirituality. Becca strives to be a Christian minimalist in a consumer society. She has gotten rid of 60% of her personal possessions in six months, taken part in a year-long shopping fast, and moved from a 3,000 square foot suburban home to a 1,700 square foot urban home. She is constantly asking herself what matters most, and how simplifying will help her to live the abundant life Jesus has called his followers to live (John 10:10). Becca lives in Philadelphia, PA with her husband Will.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management
Try affordable, safe, and convenient online counseling here with one of our sponsors! (Sign up through this link to receive 10% off your first month)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,600 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at MidwestShelters.com or visit them on Facebook.
Becca Ehrlich is incredibly kind and gracious. We've never met before in person, but I discovered some of her intriguing articles on Christian Minimalism so I reached out to interview her. Her story has grief and triumph woven throughout, and I'm eager for you to listen in.
One thing I love about The Savvy Sauce is how this is a safe space to hear from others whose background or denomination is different from my own, and maybe you differ from both of us. [00:01:19] Regardless, it's my desire we can all agree on the saving power of Jesus Christ and grow a little closer to Him through each conversation. And that's my hope for today.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Becca.
Becca Ehrlich: Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, we're going to just start by going back a little bit into your past. Will you share how you came to know Jesus?
Becca Ehrlich: That's a fun story. I actually grew up in an interfaith household. My dad is Jewish and my mom is Roman Catholic, but we didn't really go to church growing up. When I was in high school, one of my close friends was singing in the contemporary choir at worship and invited me to come along and sing because she knew I enjoyed singing.
So I started doing that, and then I was the one who dragged my mom to church, and then she dragged my brother, so she had someone to sit in the pew with her while I was singing. So it was more of a, "Oh, this is a thing." [00:02:20]
So I basically found Jesus through music. Then I had other friends who were more involved in their faith, and they invited me to their youth group. It was definitely a high school thing where I really started to own my faith and really worked on my relationship with Jesus.
Laura Dugger: That is awesome. So it was kind of a young start, and you introduced others to it along the way. What has your journey looked like since that point of being in high school and being a new believer?
Becca Ehrlich: The thing that I thought God put on my heart was to be the head of youth ministry for a diocese, which is like the regional area for the Catholic Church. And so I pursued a master's degree in theology at a Catholic university, thinking that that was the path I was going to be on, but God had other plans.
I ended up going to seminary and becoming a Lutheran pastor, which is hilarious because if someone had gone back to my high school self and told me that I would be a Lutheran pastor, I would have said they were nuts. But here I am. [00:03:21]
My husband also came to faith late in life. He was not Christian when we met, and I invited him to the Alpha Course, which is kind of an introduction to the Christian faith that comes out of England, actually. And he came to faith, and that was awesome. So I got to be there for his baptism. So it's been definitely an interesting journey for both of us in our faith lives.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And now you two have been married for how long?
Becca Ehrlich: Over eight years.
Laura Dugger: Over eight years. And what has that season looked like? Was that what you expected?
Becca Ehrlich: Ha! No. I mean, no one expects marriage to be all hugs and puppies and rainbows, but we have had our share of ups and downs as far as what life has thrown at us.
Our infant son, Gideon, died at birth in 2014. And then a few months after that, I got really sick, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong with us. We kept going to doctor to doctor to doctor, and no one could figure it out. [00:04:22]
Then I got diagnosed with one thing and had surgery, and then I got diagnosed with something else, and then finally we figured out that I have a chronic illness called mass cell activation syndrome, which is just a fancy way of saying my immune system is overreactive. So I react to things bodily that normal people shouldn't react to. It took years and years until I finally got diagnosed. And so we struggled through that.
Both Will's parents have died since we've gotten married as well. His father just died in April. So I think we've had more than enough of our share of struggles and trials and tribulations, but we know that Jesus is with us through it because Jesus knew suffering as well.
Laura Dugger: Yes, He did. But I think just to honor a few of those experiences, just going back, Will's father passing, that means that happened in the midst of quarantine and COVID. And so I'm assuming that did not look like the grieving process that we typically expect in America. [00:05:28]
Becca Ehrlich: No, not at all. That was the hardest part. He fell down the stairs and was taken to the hospital, and we were not allowed to go see him because of the pandemic. And so that was a struggle. When he started turning towards death, we had to say goodbye to him via phone, which is not what anyone wishes to do.
The worst part was we were trying to get him to hospice, and they wouldn't let him go into hospice until there was a negative COVID-19 test, but they had misplaced the test and it was delayed. And so he actually died before we got the negative test results back. So if he had been in hospice, we would have been able to see him. So that was a real struggle.
We haven't been able to have a funeral service, so we haven't had that religious ritual closure in a way that we wish we had. His dad is actually a big deal in the biology world, and so a lot of his colleagues around the world, and...
He studies spiders, so he has spider groupies. [00:06:28] All of them want to be able to grieve and have closure too, and we're not able to give anyone that in the same way that we would like. A social media post is not the same as having an actual service that we can livestream for people. So we're hoping to do that as soon as it's safe to.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I can't imagine what that feels like for you, because that feels like it sucks the breath away for me just to hear this. And just kind of processing grief upon grief, are you willing to share a little bit more about Gideon?
Becca Ehrlich: Sure, yeah, I can do that. My husband and I decided that we wanted to start trying to have kids, and it happened pretty quickly, and we were really excited about it. I had full pregnancy, no problems really. It was kind of a picture-perfect pregnancy.
Then I was overdue. Typically when that happens is they kind of let you go for a little bit, and then they're like, Okay, if you don't go into labor naturally by this time, we're going to have to induce it. [00:07:36] I didn't want to induce it. I have friends that have been induced and did not have good experiences with that.
So we did all the old wives' tales things to try to get things jump-started. My water broke, and we went to the hospital, and they were very full at the time, and so I wasn't even in the right wing. They just kind of put me in a separate room that they put a monitor in and just kind of left me there until I was farther along.
Suddenly the monitor started freaking out, and it looked like the heart rate of our son was going down low and then kind of going back up and being normal again. There was no one around because they just kind of put me in a room and were like, Eh, when you're farther along, let us know.
So my husband, Will, had to run out into the hallway and kind of yell for a nurse. At first, they thought it was an issue with the heart rate monitor. So they had me turn over and go in different positions, and at the whole time it just felt like they were kind of moving underwater. [00:08:36] Like everything felt really slow and I was like, "Okay, if my baby's in trouble, we've got to do something now."
Finally, they were like, "Oh, we don't think it's the monitor. We're going to have to go do an emergency C-section, and we don't even have time to just... we're going to have to put you under. Like we don't have time to deal with it the way we normally would." That was really scary.
And so I kissed my husband and went to the OR. The next thing I remember I woke up — my parents had come down — and I saw my mom and I said, "Is the baby okay?" And she shook her head no. For me, it wasn't... I mean it was clearly traumatic. But, I mean, my husband watched as they pulled out our child and tried to resuscitate him, and he never took a breath.
No one knows to this day what happened. It could be related to my chronic illness. People who have my disorder tend to have a more frequent level of stillbirth or miscarriage. But we don't know. No one knows what happened. [00:09:37]
So, yeah, that's how we lost our son. It was rough. We had a full nursery set up to bring the baby back to, and we had no baby to bring to the nursery. So that was really hard.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Becca, I'm completely speechless. I did not know any part of this story. How did you and Will start to take those first steps of grieving this and processing this shocking loss?
Becca Ehrlich: It was really hard. I think what was really helpful in a lot of ways was that my family was there, and then I had other family members and friends that came in, and we had a funeral service the next week. Which, by the way, if you just were a week out from having a C-section, walking into a funeral for your baby is even harder because you can barely stand up because C-sections are rough.
But having people surround us with love. I mean, we were getting cards and emails and messages from people we've never met before. [00:10:40] Just people heard what had happened and either had experience with miscarriage or stillbirth and were there to support us. And so I think that was really what helped us the most. Also, Jesus. I don't know what we would have done if we didn't have our faith, for sure.
The one thing I will say is that when we were very open about what happened to us, we blogged about it, we posted on social media, and people were coming out of the woodwork who we'd known for years and saying, Yeah, I had a miscarriage, or yeah, I had a stillbirth, or yeah, I've been trying to get pregnant for years and it hasn't happened.
And these are people we've known that just had never talked about it. So I think a lot of times those types of things, things relating around pregnancy and child loss, we're trained not to talk about. I think we've learned to model being open and honest about the loss of our son.
Like when people ask me if I have any kids, which is a pretty standard thing people ask you, right, when you're in your 20s or 30s, I never say no, because I feel like that would be doing a disservice to my son's memory, but also training people to be okay with having these conversations. [00:11:56]
So if someone asks me if I have children, I say, yes, but not alive. And then usually they're like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." I'm like, "No, don't be sorry. It's part of my story. It's okay." And then that usually opens up a conversation about child loss in a way that wouldn't necessarily happen before.
Laura Dugger: Wow. You have been gifted with so many of these gifts of communication, and it sounds like transparency and authenticity, and joy. It's just unexpected to hear the joy coming out when you hear more of that story. So thank you for courageously sharing that and teaching us how to talk about this more openly.
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, thank you. And I think people are always like, "I don't know how you get through it, how you're so joyful." And I'm like, "Well, joy is not contingent on what's happening to us. It's a deeper thing. And I only have joy because of Jesus. I wouldn't have joy if it wasn't for Jesus." [00:12:55]
I mean, there's so many things in life to be joyful for, and I still grieve my son periodically. You know, grief is not a one-time thing. It's a process. And so it's a both-and.
Laura Dugger: That is beautifully said. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: With over 1,600 apartment units available and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company.
They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.
In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. [00:13:57] Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments. Stop by their website at MidwestShelters.com.
Laura Dugger: So Becca, how did your journey lead you to eventually learn about Christian Minimalism?
Becca Ehrlich: Actually, my chronic illness is the reason I found out about Christian Minimalism. I was having a bad health day and I was sitting on my couch not feeling good. I was sort of just paging around on Netflix. And you know how Netflix says things you might like and makes suggestions for you.
I watched a decent amount of documentaries. And one of the documentaries that popped up that day was the Minimalism documentary by The Minimalists. And I was like, "I don't know what this is, but it's an hour and 15 minutes. So we'll give it a shot." And it changed my life. [00:14:57]
Like no one thinks that they're going to be going around on Netflix one day and having their life changed. I know I didn't, but I heard God speaking to me through it, basically. And I knew that this was something that God was calling me to.
My husband got home and I was like, "Will, Will, you've got to watch this." And he was really not excited at all. Because he was like, "Oh, it means we're going to have to change things, aren't we?" I was like, "Yes, yes, it does." But he watched it too, and we both came to the same conclusion that God was calling us to live a more minimalist life.
And because of my chronic illness, I kind of filled that void with online shopping. I had become addicted to online shopping in the years before that and so I had really bad habits around using my God-given resources. And I knew that needed to change, but I didn't know how. This sort of jump-started that for me.
And so not only did we start living a more minimalist lifestyle, but I also did a year-long shopping fast in 2018. [00:15:56] I spent a whole year of not buying things unless it was on an approved list, like food and medication and toiletries.
Laura Dugger: Yes. And how did you identify that you did have a shopping addiction?
Becca Ehrlich: It's funny because you think addiction and you think substance abuse. Of course, that's a huge part of what addiction is for a lot of people. And so I don't use that word lightly. But we don't talk about shopping addictions much, especially online shopping addictions, because you get a rush when you click to buy. You get a rush when you get it in the mail. And then a few days later, that rush is gone and you have to go find it again. And so it's the same cycle for all types of addiction.
Laura Dugger: So if somebody maybe is listening today and they weren't even aware, but now they're kind of feeling this pricking that maybe this is a struggle they have too, do you have any advice for how they might identify if this is an addiction? [00:16:57]
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. Well, one of the things is if you keep feeling like it's something you need to do. That was for me like I knew I shouldn't have kept doing it, but I felt like I had to because I had those addiction qualities to it.
If you think you are dealing with a shopping addiction or online shopping addiction, I would suggest doing a shopping fast of some sort to try to at least jumpstart you realizing that that's not something you need to keep doing. You don't have to do a full year. That's kind of extreme. I just did it because I decided I wanted to. But a few months of a shopping fast.
And have accountability. That was the big thing for me. Honestly, that's how I started my blog was public accountability so that I didn't fall back onto the bad habits that I had been doing before.
You don't have to start a blog to do that. You can just have a spouse or a friend or another loved one be your accountability partner. But find ways to make sure that that's not happening.
Delete all those emails you get from stores. [00:17:58] Oh, my gosh. I must have deleted like 100 and unsubscribed to 100 different lists. It was crazy.
And don't go browsing on on websites either. That was a thing for me. "Oh, I'm just window shopping." Okay, well, maybe you won't be later. So finding ways to break those habits is really important.
Laura Dugger: Because for you, with your experience, was it meeting or at least appearing to meet certain emotional needs? Or what do you think was the driving force?
Becca Ehrlich: For me, I think it was... having a chronic illness is rough, especially when it was undiagnosed. At the time, we really had no idea what was wrong with me. And so I felt kind of hopeless about it. So I got that rush of dopamine every time I went and hit that button to buy. And then when I got it in the mail... and it wasn't ever things I really needed. It was just stuff that I thought I liked. [00:18:58] Then that wears off after a while and then you have to go find the next thing.
So for me, I guess it was a literal biological need in some fashion because I was not feeling great and I was trying to make myself feel better.
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. And I wonder, especially coming through this COVID season, if a lot of people are resonating that that was still something that was available and maybe experiencing more sadness than usual or isolation or loneliness.
Becca Ehrlich: Oh, for sure. I'll bet a lot of people kind of got into habits of online shopping during this. It's easy to do
Laura Dugger: So I appreciate you sharing that story because it sounds like God then started using minimalism to call you into even a deeper level of intimacy with Himself. So could you define minimalism and then share how your identity as a Christ follower differentiates it from mainstream minimalism? [00:19:57]
Becca Ehrlich: Sure. It's so funny to hear you say mainstream minimalism because like minimalism itself is not mainstream yet. Although I'd love to see it that way. But I think you're right. I think there's a general minimalism and then like niche minimalism.
So for me, I usually define minimalism as a focus on the aspects of life that matter most and intentionally removing everything else. So it's not the decluttering movement, really, although that's kind of part of it.
Decluttering is usually focused on material objects and stuff and just getting rid of it. But this actually gets to the core of how and why. It's about a whole lifestyle of focusing on the most important things and living intentionally.
Christian minimalism is a Jesus-centered or Jesus-oriented version of minimalism. So it starts with Jesus at the center and then the rest of the aspects of life that matter most fall around that. So if you're thinking of like concentric circles, like Jesus is at the center. Then what's most important is kind of around that as a circle and you use Jesus as a starting point. [00:21:00]
For me, Christian minimalism is very biblically based. Sixteen of the 38 parables Jesus told are about money and possessions. And in the Gospels, one out of every ten verses has to do with money. So it's clearly stuff that matters. Obviously, Christian minimalism is more than just stuff and money. But if you even just start in that little part of minimalism, it's a huge deal in the Bible.
Laura Dugger: And so if you are using that example of the concentric circles, could you give us examples of what that looks like in your life and what some of those focuses are for parts of life that matter most to you and Will?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. I'm so glad you asked that. One of the things I've done over time as I've written about this and talked about this and thought a lot about it and prayed a lot about it is kind of figuring out what are those aspects of life that matter most for Christian minimalists. And I came up with six.
For me, and I think these are across the board, culturally, geographically, and the six are fellowship, self-care, stewardship, spiritual growth, vocation, and service. [00:22:06] So those are things that matter most for everyone, pretty much, right?
Like relationships, fellowship, that's something that we all know matters. Self-care: taking care of ourselves. Stewardship: using God's resources wisely. Spiritual growth: continuing our relationship with God and cultivating that. Vocation: doing what God is calling us to do. And service: you know, serving others.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I just want to pause there. You said it was through a lot of prayer and reading and reflection. Are there any specific parts of Scripture that really stand out for how you came to those six?
Becca Ehrlich: Definitely the one that I've been most focusing on lately is John 10:10. Jesus said that He came that we could have life and have it abundantly. Abundance is an interesting word. Because what we think of as abundance in society is not what Jesus thinks of as abundance. [00:23:06]
Society believes that we should get more stuff and have bigger houses and better cars and keep amassing wealth and become famous and successful and all these things. But Jesus' view of abundance is, you know, spiritual abundance and abundance with those around us and serving others in Jesus's name. It's not about those things at all.
Laura Dugger: What are some of the surprising ways that Jesus has led you into an abundant life through the means or the vehicle of minimalism?
Becca Ehrlich: The crazy part is that in the time I used to surf the internet looking for internet buys, back when I was really, really addicted... I'm still an addict, right? You're always an addict. But when I was really in the throes of that addiction, I was doing those things that I knew I wasn't called to.
I was spending my time and energy and resources on things that God wasn't calling me to use them on. [00:24:09] And now I feel like that's much more in alignment with how God is calling me to use my resources. In the time I spent doing the online shopping stuff, I'm actually getting my doctoral degree, which is nuts.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is such a different trade-off than what that leads to in the end with that investment of time shopping versus the investment of time studying and earning your degree.
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. I was spending my time and energy and resources on these things that didn't matter. And now I'm actually going to get my doctorate. It's not comparable. It's obviously one is more valuable than the other and one God is calling me to and the other one God wasn't. So minimalism has really changed my life and helped me to align myself more with what God wants for me.
Laura Dugger: Okay, so let's bring it down then to more of a practical level. Are there any steps that we can take toward embracing more of the abundant life today through minimalism? [00:25:13]
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. This is the one question that I tell Christian minimalists to ask themselves constantly. Is this possession, time commitment, or activity adding value to my life and the lives of others in Jesus's name?
Laura Dugger: That is such a good question. Do you have any other filters that you recommend running it through or any other resources that can help us further understand some of these concepts?
Becca Ehrlich: One of the big things, at least I found in churchy people, is that we're really bad at saying no. We're really good at saying yes to things. But unfortunately, when we say yes to all the things, we're not being intentional about how we're using our spiritual gifts that are given to us by God and helping match what matters most to us and using our time and resources, and energy on those things. And that leads to burnout usually.
So learning to say no to things that don't align with what matters most to you and where your spiritual gifts lie and saying yes to those things that only align with what's most important and your spiritual gifts. [00:26:16]
Laura Dugger: Hey there, have you taken any specific action after listening to any of these episodes? Did you purchase a resource that set you on a better path in your life or try out any of the suggestions for your relationships that our guests have recommended?
If so, we want to see and hear about it. Please tag us on Instagram or Facebook so we can see your practical application. It's so encouraging to be in this together. You can find us on social media @TheSavvySauce.
Lauren, our social media lead, pours a ton of work into creating and managing that platform. And we look forward to continuing the conversation with you there.
If someone doesn't yet know what their spiritual gift is, how do you recommend they begin to learn that and then hopefully use that gift for others in God's glory?
Becca Ehrlich: I'm so glad you asked that. There are so many spiritual gifts assessments out there online and otherwise. [00:27:18] So if your church is part of a certain denomination, I encourage you to go to your denominational website and look to see if there's a spiritual gifts assessment through your denomination.
If your church isn't in a denomination, that's cool, too. Just search spiritual gifts assessment online and you'll come up with, I'm sure, a billion. But each spiritual gifts assessment is kind of its own thing. It tests for different spiritual gifts depending on who the author is and how they're interpreting the Bible.
The one that I encourage people to use if you're really into it and really don't mind spending time getting into this, is Christian Schwartz's Three Colors of Ministry. It's part of the Natural Church Development books. It tests for 30 different spiritual gifts. It's 180 questions and it has a normalization chart and two polls that you give to other people as well. It's pretty intense, but it's super cool. And it's the most in-depth one I've found.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Yes, it's great to have a place to get started if somebody wants to study further. [00:28:21] Could you just give a really general overview and mention a few of the gifts and what that might look like to use them?
Becca Ehrlich: Sure. One of the gifts that gets overlooked a lot is the gift of administration, which sounds super boring. But we need people who are able to organize things and categorize things and make lists and make sure that things get done. Because if you're not one of those people that has that gift, you appreciate those people for sure. So that's a gift that I possess and that I used to kind of downplay, but now I'm realizing that it's actually pretty valuable.
Some other gifts that people would have is the gift of service. Everyone is called to serve God, of course, but people of the gift of service specifically have the gift of doing those behind-the-scenes things that really need to get done that people sometimes don't notice. You'll know if you have that spiritual gift if you do something and things run more smoothly because of it, but no one noticed. [00:29:22] Like stacking chairs after a church event.
So one of the reasons I really love the spiritual gifts assessment with Three Colors of Ministry is because they test for some spiritual gifts that some flavors of Christianity don't talk about as much. Some people say the supernatural gifts, but they're all supernatural because they come from God.
The gift of prophecy, for example, which sounds scary, but it's really not. It just means that if you have the gift of prophecy, you hear a message from God that's supposed to be for somebody and you relay that message to that person. So that's a cool gift. A lot more people have that gift than I think give themselves credit for.
Usually, you'll know if you have that gift if you're praying and you get a sense of something for someone. It can be a word or a phrase or a picture or a feeling, and you convey that to that person and they're like, Oh my gosh, that's exactly what I needed to hear today. That's usually what the gift of prophecy kind of feels like. [00:30:21]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So as we're talking about prophecy, I've been studying in 1 Corinthians recently, and the Amplified version kind of unpacks more than what we just think of originally when we hear prophecy. We might just think of foretelling the future. But it also describes it as speaking a new message from God to the people.
So I love that example of what you gave. I even wonder — this is just my speculation — that it may not always be a one-to-one communication, but maybe it is something that you feel led from the Lord and you've shared on your blog before, and it reaches people because the Holy Spirit can work in whatever way the Spirit wants to move.
Becca Ehrlich: Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Prophecy is not limited to just one-to-one, for sure. It can be online, it can be in groups of people, all that stuff.
Laura Dugger: That's so encouraging. And I think just to wrap that idea up, what I'm learning currently is to eagerly desire the gift of prophecy so that it leads us into a more excellent way, which is the way of love. Because that's the part that never fades away, even when prophecies cease to exist. [00:31:35]
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, amen to that.
Laura Dugger: Becca, how can minimalism give us the gift of time?
Becca Ehrlich: That's one of the things I love talking about, because most people find out when they start living more minimally and they start intentionally getting rid of those things in their lives that aren't helping align them with what God is calling them to do and what matters most. You have a lot more time, and then you get to decide how to use that time, which is kind of cool, right?
And so I've found that I have a lot more time for prayer and for Bible study and just having that time with God than I did before. I have more time for my husband and my loved ones and my friends. I have more time to do studying.
Like I said before, I'm doing a doctoral degree in the time I used to spend shopping online. So I have a lot more time for those things that matter most rather than, I don't know, just sitting mindlessly in front of the TV for hours. [00:32:36] Sitting mindless for a little bit is good if you need to chill, but maybe not all night. And learning to cut myself off sometimes because it's easy to fall down the rabbit hole, especially if you're doing YouTube or Netflix or something.
Finding ways to be like, Okay, now I'm going to go do this thing that is for my spiritual growth, or I'm going to go spend some quality time with my family. It's all about intentionality and living intentionally.
Laura Dugger: We are all about that, about having these practical chats for intentional living. And so it sounds like it looked like for you taking away excessive hours in front of screens. Was it also a process of taking away certain possessions or a part of that decluttering your household?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. So that was part of it for me too. A lot of times minimalists start with the stuff because it's an easy thing to start with because it's obvious you have a lot of it and you need to cull it down. And so we kind of started with that. We had so much stuff. It was crazy. [00:33:41]
At the time, we lived in a 1,200-square-foot apartment and there was just stuff shoved in every spot that there could be stuff. And we rented a storage unit outside of town that was, they say, high and tight. So we couldn't even find stuff in there even if we wanted because it was literally floor to ceiling, end to end, shoved with stuff.
And that was because we had moved there from a 3,000-square-foot house. You know, when you have that big a house, you fill it with stuff because that's what's expected. And so, oh my gosh, we had so much stuff.
So we got rid of 60% of our stuff in six months. It was crazy. We donated probably 95% of it and then threw out those things that weren't in a condition to donate.
Laura Dugger: At the end of that six months, what was the feeling like to be rid of all of those earthly possessions?
Becca Ehrlich: Well, first of all, I mean, we were just thrilled to get the time back because I think... I mean, even before we started the minimizing process, I don't think we realize in society how much time we spend taking care of our stuff. [00:34:50] When you buy something, it's not just the cost of the thing, but it's the time and energy you spend taking care of it. And we spend a lot of time doing that.
So we didn't have to do that as much. And we just felt so much lighter and we had so much more time and we weren't constricted on where we could live next because we had so much stuff. Like, where are we gonna put all this stuff? We didn't have to have that conversation anymore because we had so much less than what we had before.
Laura Dugger: And as it relates to Christian minimalism, who are some of your heroes and what have they taught you?
Becca Ehrlich: I truly believe Jesus is a minimalist. When he was on earth, he lived a simple life. He encouraged disciples to live simply as well. He taught against greed and accumulating possessions at the detriment to one's relationship with God. He focused on what was most important. He encourages his followers to do the same. Jesus also reminds us that God is our provider and we don't have to worry and stockpile stuff. [00:35:50]
So for Jesus followers, it makes sense to live a more minimal life because that's really how Jesus lived. I can't top Jesus with any of my other heroes, but I will list the others.
Obviously the minimalists, they're Ryan Nicodemus and Joshua Fields Milburn. They're the reason I discovered minimalism. They blog, they wrote a few books. They made that documentary. They're kind of the face of mainstream minimalism, if you will.
Joshua Backer, who is also a blogger and writer in the minimalism world, he's actually a Christian pastor. And so he will sometimes bring Bible texts into his writing. But he's also very clear that he's not writing for Christians. He's writing from a more broad perspective, but it's kind of cool that he uses Bible references.
Courtney Carver, who is also in the minimalism space and has written books and has a blog. She's famous for her Project 333, where she wore 33 items of clothing for three months. [00:36:53] And so she encourages people to use less clothing in their lives.
The cool part about all three of these groups of folks is that they were all bloggers turned authors. So I knew that that was a thing that could happen. All of them have influenced the way I think about minimalism from a faith perspective and I was encouraged to start that because of them.
Laura Dugger: And then following in their footsteps, you are also a blogger turned author.
Becca Ehrlich: I am. Yeah, it's so crazy to say that.
Laura Dugger: Because at the time of this recording, your book has not been released yet, but you are in the midst of writing your first book. Is that right?
Becca Ehrlich: Yes. The book is called Christian Minimalism: Simple Steps for Abundant Living. It's being published by Church Publishing and it should be released May 2021.
Laura Dugger: Can't wait for that. So excited for you. [00:37:52] Speaking of your blog, though, one of your most popular posts of all time was titled Why Marie Kondo Didn't Work for Me.
Becca Ehrlich: Ah, yes, the Marie Kondo post.
Laura Dugger: So will you just tell us more about your thought process behind this article?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, so it's funny. I kind of discovered Marie Kondo before she blew up here in America. A friend had given me her book, The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up. And I was like, "Oh, this is kind of cool."
I tried her method. I got rid of a whole bunch of stuff, but it didn't stick for me. Like I just kept going back to buying stuff. That was sort of like my first brush with decluttering and minimalism and that sort of thing.
And once I started writing about Christian minimalism, I was like, I wonder why that didn't stick. What about that wasn't working for me? And it wasn't until the Netflix show came out that Marie Kondo did that really visually highlighted for me what I felt like didn't necessarily work well in her method. [00:38:57] So I decided to write about it from a Christian faith perspective. And it went semi-viral, which I was not expecting.
And there's some really great things about Marie Kondo, right? Like she shows people that we need to simplify our possessions. And she shows that decluttering and simplifying is work, but it's worth it. Some of her storage methods are so great. Oh my gosh, her folding method for shirts changed my life. And also she's a young woman who's passionate about her work and an expert in her field, which is great. But there's a few things that didn't really work for me.
And I think why it went semi-viral was the first thing I said, which ended up being way more controversial than I thought. And I pointed out in the post that the basis of the KonMari method is in the Shinto religion. Basically what that means is she comes at the decluttering process as someone of the Shinto faith. Basically all I said was if you're a Christian and you're doing her method, you just have to be aware of that and figure out what parts of it work for your Christian faith and what don't because Shintoism is not Christianity. [00:40:02] And that ended up being a whole lot more controversial than I expected.
Laura Dugger: What is some of the pushback that you've received?
Becca Ehrlich: It was really interesting because... I don't know. I do interfaith work all the time. I grew up in an interfaith household. So, for me, it wasn't a big deal to be like, "Hey, just be aware that this thing is based in another religion and just figure out what that means for you as you do it.
A lot of people were upset because they felt like I was saying bad things about the Shinto religion or saying that... I don't know. People felt like I was being judgmental, I think, which was totally not what I was going for and not what I actually said. So it's always interesting what people read... read into what you write, right?
But I don't know. It was way more controversial than I thought it was going to be. Because I thought just saying it was based in the Shinto religion, which was fact, and saying that, okay, if you're a Christian doing this, you need to kind of figure out what that means, wasn't that big a deal. [00:41:05] I don't know.
Laura Dugger: Yeah. I feel like the way that I take that is that you're saying sift through to see which parts are true. Is that right?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, exactly. The other things that I said about the KonMari Method, which, of course, people didn't focus quite as much on, was that it inadvertently encourages an emotional attachment to stuff because, you know, her catchphrase is, you hold something and say, does this spark joy?
And so because she's coming from her faith tradition, her Shinto faith, for her, that's a spiritual moment. But in American culture, that's not a religious thing for us. And so it's actually inadvertently teaching us to connect things to emotion.
For me, a lot of times getting rid of the things that don't matter has been shedding that attachment with emotion. Because I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, this book, this book was... I had this book when I was going through this thing in my life. And I'm like, "That's dumb. Like the memory is not in the book. I don't need to keep this book to keep that memory alive." But we all do it. [00:42:08] We all do it.
So I found that the KonMari Method wasn't serving me well because I was trying to get rid of my emotional attachment to stuff, not encourage it.
Then the other thing was that the KonMari Method is a one-and-done process. In her show, she actually says like, you've graduated the KonMari Method. And I'm like, well, that's lovely, but it's not done. Now you have to figure out what your life is going to look like now that you have less stuff.
And that's why I like Christian minimalism, because it's a more all-encompassing way of living. It's a whole lifestyle. It's not just about getting rid of stuff and you're done. It's a gradual but constant process of figuring out what adds value to your life and what matters most and how to keep Jesus at the center, because that's going to look different depending on where you are in your life.
A bachelor is going to probably live as a Christian minimalist differently than someone who's married and has three kids. Right?
Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, I appreciated that post so much. [00:43:09] I had just never heard all of that background behind it. And I know that my experience was, about five years ago, I came across that book and really appreciated it. And it did lead me to get rid of lots of our stuff. Yet there was something deeper.
When I read it, I started praying for Marie Kondo to know Jesus. The scripture that I came across and thought of her was from 2 Timothy 2:20 and 21, where it says, "In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the master, and prepared to do any good work."
I think what you're saying, like contrasting the two, that's been more of my experience with going to the Lord for these ideas and maybe kind of related to Christian minimalism. [00:44:15] But that's one of my end goals is to be useful to Him and prepared to do any good work that He calls me to. So I appreciate your writings, making it more practical and accessible to us in the Christian faith, how we can implement that.
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, thank you. And I think in a lot of ways, some of the things that I do and what Marie Kondo does are similar because our faith is what drives what we do. And so I think that's pretty cool.
Laura Dugger: Well, I always enjoy hearing people discuss thoughtful ways they are choosing to live counter-culturally. So how do you experience God calling you to a counter-cultural lifestyle of Christian minimalism?
Becca Ehrlich: Just being a Jesus follower in today's world means sometimes being counter-cultural. So that alone. And then Christian minimalism in a lot of ways amplifies that because we live in our consumer culture.
For example, society tells us more is better and Christian minimalists aim to live with less, intentionally consume and focus on what's most important. [00:45:19]
Society tells us we are what we do for our job, but Christian minimalists strive to focus on what God is calling us to do our vocation, rather than basing our identity on our job title or how we make a living.
Being busy is a badge of honor in our society. Resting is just wasted time. For Christian minimalists, intentionally spending Sabbath time and rest and renewal with our loved ones and with God is really important.
And being famous, having power and receiving worldly accolades are things that we're taught to strive for in our consumer society. But Christian minimalists know that fame, power, and worldly praise aren't our goals. We're called to serve rather than be served as Jesus did.
Laura Dugger: You sum that up so well. As you look back, Becca, what has been added to your life as you intentionally chose to subtract the stuff?
Becca Ehrlich: I'm more intentional about how I value material possessions, my money, my time, and my spiritual gifts and how I use them. I'm much more aware of how I use those things. [00:46:20] And I have more time, resources, and energy for what's most important: My spiritual growth, my calling from God, my family, my friends, my self-care. And I'm able to be more generous with my time, energy, and resources.
Laura Dugger: I love that, that it can lead to generosity. We've alluded to this earlier, but what can we expect from your upcoming book that's scheduled to be released in 2021?
Becca Ehrlich: So as the basis for the book is the abundant life that Jesus came for that we hear about in John 10:10 is not the abundant life our consumer society tells us that we should strive for. So it's a more in-depth look at how we can live the abundant life Jesus wants for us with practical tools for focusing on the aspects of life that matter most that we mentioned before: fellowship, self-care, stewardship, spiritual growth, vocation, and service.
There's going to be a read-and-reflect section to use by yourself or with a group of friends or a small group or Bible studies at church. So I'm really excited about it. [00:47:21] I think it's going to be really fun. I can't believe I get to write the book on Christian minimalism, which is pretty cool.
Laura Dugger: That is incredible. I'm just cheering you on in this process. But for now, before the book is released, where can listeners read more about your thoughts online?
Becca Ehrlich: So my blog is Christianminimalism.com. Usually, I try to write about stuff that people can relate to and really put into practice in their own life. So it's not just like a, Oh, that was nice, and then you go about your life. But it's really geared towards thinking about ways that you can live intentionally and, you know, remove those things that aren't helping you focus on God and what matters most.
Laura Dugger: We will definitely add a link to that, both in our show notes and on our Resources tab of our website, TheSavvySauce.com, so it's easily accessible.
We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Becca, what is your savvy sauce? [00:48:28]
Becca Ehrlich: So when I go to speak on Christian minimalism at congregations and at events, and I ask people first what they think matters most, the first answer I always get is relationships because we all know instinctively that our relationships with each other are one of the things that's most important in our lives.
And so my savvy sauce is to make it a point to connect with a loved one once a day. That could look like a text or an email or a phone call or a video chat. Just connecting with someone you love once a day.
Laura Dugger: I love it. What an awesome savvy sauce to end on. Becca, you are delightful to spend time with. I'm so excited about your writing and this upcoming project. And I appreciate all that you've shared with us today. You've given us so much to think about. So thank you for being my guest.
Becca Ehrlich: Thank you for inviting me. This was so much fun.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. [00:49:29] And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:50:28]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:51:29]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:52:28]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 05, 2020
Monday Oct 05, 2020
114. Living Intentionality with Shunta Grant
**Transcription Below**
John 15: 10+11 (ESV) “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.”
In a world telling women to “do it all,” Shunta Grant teaches women to joyfully decline a life filled with the overwhelm, tension and discontentment brought on by a constant state of busy-ness. Shunta helps women live life (and build businesses) on the OTHER side of busy. Shunta is the creator of the Best Today™ Brand which equips women with resources to be proactive and intentional with their time. Her signature product, the Best Today™ Guide, helps women get clear on what they want and provides a simple three-step process to guide women toward their vision for the future one today at a time. Shunta also teaches business owners and leaders through her coaching program, Peace Pace Progress. To learn more about Shunta and how she can help you on your journey visit shuntagrant.com/meetshunta.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Buisiness, Life, and Joy Podcast with Shunta Grant
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Try affordable, safe, and convenient online counseling here with one of our sponsors! (Sign up through this link to receive 10% off your first month)
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.
Shunta Grant is our guest today, and I expect you to end this chat feeling empowered to step into something more significant than yourself through choosing a life of intentionality, which begins by abiding in Christ.
Shunta is going to break down and get really practical in ways to do this.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Shunta.
Shunta Grant: Thank you so much for having me. I am so thrilled to chat with you. [00:01:18]
Laura Dugger: Well, would you just mind first sharing a sliver of your story with us?
Shunta Grant: Absolutely. So I'm Shunta. I am, among many things, a mom, a wife, a business owner. I started out my adult career as a business litigator, an attorney in private practice, and shifted from that into entrepreneurship in 2015.
I started with one company because of Zoe Designs, which was named after and inspired by my daughter. And over time, just that slowly shifted and opened so many other doors for me. It has led me to be able to work with business owners, train corporate teams, and now doing work that I truly believe I have been gifted to do.
My heart has always been, always, as long as I can remember, for women and girls. So this March, I launched a new company, Best Today Brand, where our mission is to equip women with resources to be proactive and intentional with their time so they can show up as their best one today at a time. [00:02:18]
And that work... just thinking about it right now, I have a smile on my face. And that is what I spend a lot of my time doing right now for work, is growing the Best Today Brand and just really on a mission to help women to be proactive and intentional with their time.
Laura Dugger: And you are gifted like no other in this area. It's been incredible to sit under your teaching. I know that you and I do share a faith in Jesus. And so do you remember about what age you were when that became real for you?
Shunta Grant: I knew about Jesus as a young child. I believed everything that I was taught. I had no reason not to. And then as I just grew and watched my mom, particularly in the early years of my life, and started really believing and hearing it for myself, it was more than just knowing what I'd heard. It was like, Oh, this is something I can have a relationship with Jesus Christ even as a child. And that just grew all of my life.
I think in college in particular, that was my first time being away from home. [00:03:19] I was in Georgia my entire life, and I went to college in South Carolina. That was an opportunity that I had to create whatever identity I wanted. I didn't know anybody there.
I remember one of the first things I wanted to do was to find a church home, to find a place to plug into. And that led to deepening my relationship in a way that it's just who I am. It's not even like, Oh, this is a thing I do or a thing I believe. It's who I am.
I always say He is the picture and I am the frame. That's just how I live my life. You can't separate Shunta and Jesus. This was something that was personal. My mom introduced me to Christ, but at the end of the day, the relationship was dependent on me.
Laura Dugger: I wonder how does that faith fuel some of your work as you inspire others to live their best day today?
Shunta Grant: Oh, it's everything. I have such a strong feeling about it. I could get emotional about it, just thinking about it. First of all, that this is like work that I get to do. [00:04:20] I actually, just right before this, got off a call ending our month-long workshop and listening to women talk about the journey we've taken over the last month and hearing them just talk about how for the first time in their life they've been consistent or they've added routine or how it's affecting their daughters who are watching them make choices. And their daughters are now saying, Mom, I want to learn more about routine.
I listened to that and I'm like, Lord, this is you. Because I thought I had a plan for my life. I thought I was going to be a lawyer and then maybe a judge. And that was that. And I thought that was using, quote-unquote, my gifts, my talents. But I see that this is who He created me to be.
This love and this passion, desire to see women win and support one another and just show up as their best, it's so embedded in who I am that I know I am using my gifts that he has given me. I'm using the way in which He made me, my personality, exactly as I am and perfectly to help other women.
I can't think that that has anything to do with me because I had a completely different plan for my life. [00:05:22] And this one, as is when you allow the Lord to be the one in control, this one is way better than I could have imagined.
Laura Dugger: And so even from a young age, were you always intentional in your approach to life or was that a learned process over time?
Shunta Grant: Yes. My mom tells me about it all the time. I was the young child, even in elementary school, who when we went out in the car on rides, I made a checklist like this is what we're doing. This is what we're bringing on the trip. I played our family plays that we did every year at holiday break. I have just been intentional when I didn't know that that's what the word... you know, that's what it was. You can look back... It's so interesting. I try to keep that in mind now with my own children, like watching who they really are.
My mom tells me so many stories about how I have just always said, "This is what I'm going to do." And if Shunta says she's going to do something, she is going to do it. So I've just been a person who really believed in myself and my abilities, thanks to my mom, who always told me, you know, you can do anything. [00:06:22]
But also, I think I've just been a person who's liked lists, who likes order, and who likes some semblance of predictability. And I think that kind of played out in what I chose for a career and somehow still ended me here. But I think I've always been a list maker and a person who's tried to be really intentional and make a plan about the things that I do.
Laura Dugger: So what are some of your most intentional practices?
Shunta Grant: I'm a routine person. So, you know, every morning I do almost the exact same thing. I get up and the first thing I take care of is what's most important to me. And that is my relationship with God. So I turn on this little teeny tiny light that I keep on my desk and my journal and my Bible is always on my desk because I know that's the first thing I'm going to do.
And so I begin with, you know, reading scripture, prayer, journaling, thinking, whatever it is I feel like I need in that moment in the morning. That's my time to talk with Him, to hear from Him, to study just whatever it is that I need in that day or He wants to tell me or communicate with me, I try to make that quiet space one because it's one of the few times in my house that it's quiet early in the morning. [00:07:38]
For me, that helps set the tone for my day. It helps if a child wakes up, I always know at least I got that part in. So that's for me really intentional to have a morning routine. And that's the first part of it. But our morning routine as a whole, that fuels my mental, emotional, and physical health. I make sure I do something every morning. I try to do something physically challenging whether that's running. I'm a runner.
I just try to make sure my first hour, one to two hours in the day, is taking care of me so that I can then show up to take care of others.
Laura Dugger: Something that you've released during a crazy season, I mean, March of 2020 was your Best Today Guide. So will you tell us more about the three-step process in there?
Shunta Grant: Yes. And let me say this about the Best Today Guide. You know, I actually joked, I said, Lord, you knew that we're going to launch this on March 16th, 2020. You could have told me that was going to be the first day of a nationwide school shutdown, job loss, and a pandemic. I would have changed the date. [00:08:45]
I was telling my friends, I was like, "I think He did that to show me something, to show me that launching this brand new product and really brand new company in the middle of something that you haven't seen in your lifetime and a lot of your peers haven't, I want to show you how this can still bring so much good and so much glory in what looks to you, looks to me as like the worst time. So that's been really fun. I will say.
The Best Today Guide today guide is a paper product. It is fantastic. It helps women get clear on what they want. And then it teaches you a three-step process that I use every single day. That first step of the process is to preview your week every single week.
So every Sunday evening, I sit down, I clear my mind. There's a page for that. And then I look at my week, my appointments, calls, meetings, deadlines. And then I define what is the most important thing that I'm focused on this week. And all of this is laid out in the Best Today Guide on one page when you're previewing your week. [00:09:42]
So this way, before you even start your week, you now have a roadmap of what's happening this week, what's going on, what days have this in it, what days are empty, which days may feel full.
Then step two is every night you plan the next day. You never planned your day the day of. So step two, you open up the page where at night you plan what time you're going to wake up in the morning, what your morning routine will be, what you're going to do for your mental, emotional, and physical health.
By the end of the day, the one most important thing, the one most important thing, I think it's so hard for people to just focus and be okay with one thing being the main thing. So I teach you to do that every single day. And then the remainder are your results and outcomes for the day.
I intentionally did not call this a to-do list because I believe a to-do list is more of a wishlist, things you would do if you had all the time in the world, all the resources in the world, and then you're disappointed when the end of the day comes and nothing gets completed. [00:10:40] So I like people to think in terms of like, what are the outcomes I need today? What are the results I need today? That's step two.
Then step three, every morning you begin with the best today process, which ask yourself, what does my best look like today? What are the self-destructing things that I need to avoid today and my vision for the future? These three questions are so important when you're starting your day. First and foremost, like, what does your best look like? So that you give yourself this standard to rise to. But again, it's your best. So it's not what do you think the world thinks your best looks like today or what is your sister's best today. It is what is your best.
Then I think it's very unwise to think about your best without actually acknowledging the things that you do to take away from that, the things that rob you from that. That's why immediately I have you, and I do this every morning, to acknowledge your self-destructing habits that really rob the good things that we try to do.
Lastly, I believe vision is so important. Without a vision, people will perish. [00:11:41] And so I have a section where every morning I write out my vision for the future so that I can see it clear as day where I'm headed, where I'm going.
The last step is one thing you're doing today that progresses you toward that vision for the future. And you do that every morning. This may sound like a lot, but I can do all of these things. I can plan my next day in three minutes flat. The nighttime, the morning. Nothing takes a lot of time.
It's just teaching you how to stop and be really intentional. Like if you're not thinking about your vision for the future, what are you doing every day? Because that in a way guides what you're doing. You know, there's nothing I don't do in my day that's not directly linked to something that I have in my vision for the future. And I don't think a lot of people can say that, but I want to help them to be able to.
Laura Dugger: If it's okay to kind of put you on the spot, are you comfortable sharing your answers to those questions? Like if you look at today's entry, what did you write? [00:12:40]
Shunta Grant: Yes. So today my best looks like celebrating my son. Today is my son's birthday, but it's also a work day. But I want to make sure that when work is over, work is over and that he gets all of my attention. He's two. He doesn't even realize today is his birthday, but really celebrating him.
Another thing my best looks like showing up well for all of my calls. So this is the day I do all of my calls. So I have been on call since 10 this morning, back to back to back to back. That can be a little draining, but I want to give every person as if they didn't know I've been on another call. Like this is the only thing I had to do today. So showing up well for each and every call that I had today is on my what does my best look like today.
Other days, I mean, there'll be things like, you know, praise and Thanksgiving, abiding. That's kind of like my... I have a word on my arm. It's like a little bracelet that has a word on it. My intent and my word is abide. I write that every day because I think for me, it's the word that captures so much of what I want to do.
If you really look at the definition of that word or what it really means to abide in Christ, it really... for me, I just look at that all day long because it's a word that gives me so much in one little word. [00:13:49] So abide. I need to abide if I want to show up as my best today.
For self-destructing today it's my phone in my hand. Today's the day with calls, so I don't need my phone. If I have my phone in my hand, I am either distracted between calls. I'm distracted on a call. I'm not showing up as my best. So my phone in my hand is the self-destructing thing that I need to avoid today.
My vision for the future, I write the same thing almost every day. Some of those include being a healthy runner, running with Zoe and Liam. Those are my children. I envision when they're older, I can see us with our numbers on, running in a race, having that time to share something I love with them, maybe later grandchildren running with them.
Having a close and individual relationship with both Zoe and Liam is another thing I write down. That really matters to me. When they are older and they have questions and they need life advice, they can turn to their mom because they know that she's a person who has wisdom, that they know they can trust me, that they can come to me when they feel like they've done something that I may not have agreed with. [00:14:49]
I want to have a close, real relationship with each of my children individually so they know that I love them for exactly who they are and it's not like they're a unit together, right? I know Zoe and I know Liam because they are two different human beings who God is going to use in different ways. So that's really important to me.
Having a clean, calm, and organized home is something I write down every day. Also, I want our home to be a place of rest where we can breathe deeper and laugh louder. The way we can do that is by keeping it clutter-free and making it a place we can put memories that imprint on my children's heart. Those are things that really matter to me.
I also have things related to work about having a very loyal, dedicated team as we continue to grow. But every day, the first things that I write about really tie back a lot to my children and how close I want to make sure that I am with them.
That, of course, informs the decision I make today. I can't wait till they're 18 to want to start building a relationship with them. So if that's something I'm writing every day [00:15:49] When I'm with them and I also have my phone in my hand, I'm going to put it down because how can I have a relationship with someone I'm not making time solely for? And so it really does inform the things that I do.
Laura Dugger: That's incredibly helpful to hear that example. And just listening, you're invested in your husband. You're invested in your children. You're invested in your team and your personal health. You have a full plate. So I know when other people tell you that they're busy, how do you respond to them?
Shunta Grant: Oh, I once was there. I have a hate-hate relationship with the word "busy". I think it is a 34-letter word. I think we have allowed the word busy to just become a thing that we're okay with identifying as. And I was that.
The reason I have such strong feelings about it is I remember the day I caught myself for the last time saying, I'm just so busy. Someone was asking me how things were going and before I even let my brain think about the answer, my mouth had already said, "Oh, I'm just, it's just so busy. It's just so busy." [00:16:53]
And I remember sitting in my car and it's almost like I stepped outside of myself and I was like, Why is that always my go-to answer? What am I really saying? I think if we really took the time to say what the word means, we'd stop saying it so much.
So I always invite people, the next time you want to tell someone you're busy, why don't you just tell them the truth and say, I am unintentional. I lack vision and I'm not clear on what it is I want out of my life. And so I'm doing a little bit of everything.
Now, if you start saying that, you'll probably stop wanting to answer that question. But that is exactly what you're saying when you're saying you're busy. I am so without focus that I'm doing a little bit of everything and I don't know if any of it is actually tied to a vision for my life. That's what I take busy to mean. It's I'm not intentional.
Now, your life can be full, today was a full day, but it's not busy. Everything that we have planned and on the calendar was intentionally planned. We can connect it to our mission here in our company. It was intentional. It wasn't just a lot of this and that. That's what I was doing before. [00:17:55] Just a little bit of everything. But nothing was really tied and connected to a mission or a vision. It was just stuff to do. And that's what busy is to me.
Laura Dugger: And so if we start equating busy with unintentional, then what are some ways that we can overcome busyness or choosing to be unintentional?
Shunta Grant: I think the first question I always lead with and anyone who's heard me speak anywhere, I will ask you, start with what do you want? What is it that you actually want? To some that may be a really big question, to some that may be a simple question. But what is it that you want? What is your vision for your life or your future? Who are you? Who are you independent of your human relationships? Is what I always say. Because a lot of times people will say, Oh, I'm a mom. Oh, I'm a wife. Oh, I'm a friend. Oh, I'm a daughter.
But before you are any of those things, who are you? If you were ripped of all those human relationships, do you know you? Who are you? What do you like? What do you want? What is your vision? [00:19:02]
Just really getting clear on who you are and what you want, I think is the first place to begin because those things inform what we want to do with our time. They inform what we will allow and what we won't allow. They set boundaries. They make decision-making so much easier. And it helps you to then set a vision for your life. What are the things that you see that you want to do?
You know, another thing I have a vision of is not only us living debt-free, but ensuring that my children and my children's children and my children's children's children can live life debt-free and be way smarter and wiser than I was. I can't do that. I can't make choices today if I don't know that that's where I want for my future generations.
Vision goes beyond you. But vision, I think, helps you to be intentional because now you have somewhere you're trying to go. I was just saying this this morning in another call that everything we do is taking us somewhere. You just don't want to wake up and end up somewhere you had no intention. [00:20:02] You don't want to wake up in Des Moines, Iowa if you were headed for Disney.
But that's what a lot of people are doing. They don't realize that everything we do or don't do is taking us somewhere. You may as well be intentional and go to the place that you desire.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity.
Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Lemans".
Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. [00:21:13]
Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: Do you think there's kind of a myth that intentionality takes too much time and I'm too busy to fit this in when in reality we probably waste more time when we're simply being reactive?
Shunta Grant: Absolutely. I know that for a fact. It's 100% fact that if you were to get intentional with your time, if you were to introduce routine into your life, if you were to even just start planning every day the night before, I know this because I've challenged women to do it for one week and the results are just unanimous. Like this makes a difference. You find time that you thought you never had. [00:22:17] I actually don't believe the sentence "I don't have time for [insert anything]". We do. We just get to choose.
We get to choose what we want to prioritize. Now, the truth may be I choose not to prioritize this right now. That could be a true statement. But I don't have time for, I don't have time to. We have time. It's just, if you allocate when you first sat still trying to make a decision, sitting in indecision, that's eating time, scrolling on your phone or anything on your phone for the most part, for that matter, you know, sitting and numbing yourself with television, not saying anything's bad with television, but like when you're just doing these things, because they're just the thing that your mind has been trained to do, but then in this next breath, you say you don't have time to read a book. Like, I don't believe you.
So you actually find time to do the things you want when you're actually intentional. If you're not intentional, you're just existing. You're treading water. You're floating from second to second throughout the day until you go to sleep and repeat and do it all over again. [00:23:15]
Laura Dugger: I think you're familiar with Laura Vanderkam's work as well, where she just brings to light we have 168 hours in a week and she unpacks that. And one of her practical takeaways is to track your time. Is that a practice that you've ever done personally?
Shunta Grant: You know, I did that a few times when I was curious about how long it took me to do certain things. I do use timers some days, like when my schedule is pretty tight. I don't do that as a daily practice, but I, one, do use timers on certain days.
And two, I have done tracking in the past when I wanted to just get an idea of, okay, can I get this thing done in two hours or something like that? I have done that before.
Laura Dugger: What are some of the best lessons you've learned in life and business as it relates to joy? Because that's what you're all about.
Shunta Grant: Yeah, Joy is one of my core values. My podcast is Business Life and Joy. I feel like you have to insert it in there. I think that joy is a choice. Sometimes it's really easy to find. It's the big elephant in the room. And sometimes it's like the needle in the haystack, but it's there. I think it's a choice. [00:24:23]
For me, one of the reasons why I actually love the word "abide" so much is that Scripture promises that if you abide in Him, His joy would be full in you. Actually, that's one of the reasons that caught my attention, the word "abide" caught my attention so much was that it was tied and connected to joy. And not my joy. His joy is full within me. You can't beat that.
For me, it's also knowing that the source of my joy can't be shaken because a pandemic can hit or you could suffer great loss. Anything can happen. We just don't know. But there's nothing that can happen that can steal joy from me. I like controllables. That's something that I can stand on. It's something that I can be confident in.
And because of that, I think that's part of the reason why it kind of oozes out of me is because I realized some days it may be really hard, but it's a choice that I still have because it's something that no circumstance, condition, no loss, no hurt, no pain can steal from me and can remove from my life. [00:25:33] I'm in control of that by my choice to abide in Him.
Laura Dugger: For you, what does abiding look like?
Shunta Grant: It is knowing that I can hold fast to His word and His promises and I can find safety there, like abiding, like residence, you know, like your humble abode, like that means abide, like find residence, take residence in Him to find shelter and peace no matter what else is going on.
I think that's part of the reason why I'm so unshakable or it's very, very hard for it to shake me because nothing can change the solidness of Him. And if I have that, I'm good.
Laura Dugger: So I've listened to many of your teachings on business and you seem enthusiastic about the impact of mission statements. So I would love to know what is your personal mission statement?
Shunta Grant: Wow. I actually keep on my wall. I have it right here the mission statement for each one of my companies and then I have my personal statement. [00:26:35] And so mine says... I'm just going to read it verbatim. It just says, "My life is found in Jesus Christ and His word. I was created to worship and glorify Him with all that I am. My talent, time, and resources are from Him, and I use them to be a help to others for His glory. Because He is with me, I have no need to fear or be weighed down by the cares of this world. He has overcome the world and conquered death. And through Him, I live, I move, and have my being. By abiding in Him daily, His joy rests fully within me and my life. This equips me to show up for myself and others daily."
I keep that right here at my desk because I want to be reminded because being a business owner, it can be really hard. There are some days that are very discouraging. But if I have something to go back to just to remind me that I don't have to be weighed down by the cares of this world and that I have no need to fear. If I can just be reminded of that truth, I always get to kind of bounce back from the blows that come sometimes with being a business owner. [00:27:33]
Laura Dugger: And if someone's interested in crafting their own mission statement, do you have any questions that you recommend they start with?
Shunta Grant: Actually, I have a full podcast episode. I don't know which number it is. I can get that to you. But I have an episode that talks about crafting your own life statement, mission statement. And it's also over on the Best Today blog.
But really, it just goes into going back to like, who are you? So for me, I thought about that. Notice, I don't mention being a mom in there. I don't mention being a wife. I don't mention being a sister or daughter. I am thinking about like, Who am I? And again, void of any other human relationship. So I like to start there and thinking like, who are you and what are the truths that you know that you want to do?
Some mission statements talk more so about like what you want to do. For me, I chose to do something just to remind me of who I am and where my foundation is. For me, that was really helpful because you can forget that sometimes, particularly in the business world, or at least I could if you're looking at other things. I wanted something that would remind me to keep my eye on what is. [00:28:34]
But asking yourself questions about like, who are you? What really matters to you? What are the things you want to do here in this earth? Like when you're not here, what do you want to be true of you? How do you want to be remembered? What do you want to be said of the things that you did? Those are some questions that you can start asking yourself.
Laura Dugger: So what are your overall priorities in life?
Shunta Grant: For me, my priority is glorifying God, using what He's given me to use it in this earth the best I can to love people really well. Starting with me first, because I think a lot of times we forget that I am my priority. That is why I start my day with me. I am not ashamed of that.
And I remove any guilt from any woman out there or any mother out there listening who thinks that you have to be a martyr to be a good mother. In my opinion, you're a good mother when you can show that you can take care of yourself, you care for yourself, you love yourself, you do what you need for your mental, physical, spiritual health. [00:29:32]
So I am my priority and loving people well. And those people are God, myself, my family, my extended family, my audience, my customers. I pray. I love the women in my audience. I think of them often. I try to create things that I think will help them. But those are my priorities. Glorifying God, loving others well, starting with myself, and doing something in this earth that is not superficial, something that's bigger than myself. I believe that's the work we're doing. It's something that's bigger than me.
Laura Dugger: I would love to camp out here for a little while because that is a fresh take of loving God, then loving yourself so that you can love others well. How did you arrive at that truth?
Shunta Grant: I kept saying, I don't have time to. That thing I said wasn't true. I said I don't have time to exercise. I don't have time to read my Bible the way I used to when I was single or when we were newlyweds. Oh, my goodness, when we were newlyweds, we had time to do all the things together. [00:30:33] And I just kept saying, I don't have time. I don't have time. And then I felt like this is making me a good mom because I am using all of my energy and resources for her.
And then I realized, I just kept saying it over and over and over. It's kind of like that busy thing. And I once finally hurt myself and I said, "This doesn't make any sense. I don't have time to open a book. I don't have time to read more than one scripture. And I'm saying, because I am such a good mom, because I am doing this, because I am cleaning this. No. I realized it was an excuse and it wasn't true. I wasn't making it a priority.
And then I had to actually ask myself, what matters to me? And I realized I have to matter to me because no one was saying, Hey, no, go take care of yourself. And if you don't say that for yourself, who's going to? So I had to realize that the way I can best love others is to love me.
And what does loving me mean? It means taking care of my health, the things that I need. I need time for quiet. [00:31:38] I really need time for quiet. The mornings where I don't get it, I am a completely different person. So that means some mornings I hear my son's crying in the crib, but I'm still in the middle of my morning time. He's safe. He's in his room. Either I will get him when I'm done or my husband will come in and get him. But I am in, and they know I am in my time. And my husband has the same thing for himself. You know, we know when he's downstairs praying, we are not bothering him.
So it's just realizing that I needed to put that boundary up and I needed to say for myself, you need time for you. It's been the best thing because it's opened up so many other areas, I think, to realize where I just wasn't hitting the mark. But yeah, I think it was just slowly realizing I kept saying I didn't have time for things and I thought that was making me look good. Like, oh, look at me. You know, I don't have time to do that. Who does things for themselves when you're such a fantastic mom. No, like that doesn't make sense.
Also, one day she's going to live somewhere else. What does that leave me? You know, 18 years of not knowing who I am. [00:32:40] So just doing that led to not only prioritizing myself, but getting to know me. Like I said, independent of relationships. That's where that came from. I was like, what do I like? You know, what do I like that I don't like because I do it with her or do it with him? Like, what do I like? Like really getting to know me. And that just I think is some of the best exploration you can do is with yourself.
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone. The Bible frequently advices us to put into action what we are learning. That is one of our prayers behind The Savvy Sauce podcast, that each of us would experience transformation as we walk in step with the spirit to apply the knowledge we've learned.
One way to do that is by taking these conversations one step further and using the resources that partner with each of these episodes. If you are going to purchase any of these resources, we invite you to do that through our show notes. It costs you nothing extra, but it does provide a tiny kickback to help fund our efforts at The Savvy Sauce. [00:33:39]
Our team personally does this and we hope that you will too by visiting TheSavvySauce.com and clicking either on today's episode title to access the show notes or visit our Resources tab to find all recommended resources. We hope you find these books and products to be beneficial to your life.
Okay, so your businesses have also been thriving for years. So what are some of your secrets?
Shunta Grant: I don't try to do everything. There is a list of things that I wish we could do yesterday that just are not getting done. And I'm okay with that. I wasn't always. So one of my secrets, not so secret secrets, is you can't do it all.
We are slowly growing. We are actually bringing in HR to start growing and adding employees to our team. But I just can't do it all. Right now, I work two days a week. Next month, it'll be moving to three days a week.
So it's learning how to prioritize, just like in life, and say, okay, what's the best business decision we can make right now? [00:34:39] What can we give our focus that's going to reach the most people and have the most impact and allow us to have impact and be generous? Because generosity is also a personal value and a business value. We want to be generous people. But we can't be generous if we don't have profit. So we need profit.
So making decisions based on, again, your mission. Everything that we do has to go back to be mission-minded. If you don't know whose problem you're solving, go back to that. That's where we start, right? I'm very clear on the woman that we serve. And I'm very clear that I am talking to women.
You know, if a man buys one of our products, sure, fine. But I want to be very clear I know exactly who I'm speaking to. I'm speaking to a particular type of woman who craves being proactive and intentional with her time, who knows that that can make a difference in her life for herself first, and then for her family and friends and all the other people she loves and who love her.
So I think for me, being really clear and really being obsessed and in love with the women that I create for is a secret that I think a lot... I'm not thinking about, first, the dollar. [00:35:44] I'm thinking about the life because the dollars are connected to the lives.
For me, that is where I've seen the most success is when our focus is on the person and how we are going to solve her problem and how we are very clear about the problem she's experiencing, the feeling she has, and how we can create something that can help relieve that.
Laura Dugger: And backing that up then, how do you even start to identify those problems?
Shunta Grant: Yeah. So, for me, this journey has been so organic but very linear. I started with a hairbow company, and then I started getting invitations to come and teach about business. And I found myself, even early on when I would start doing some business teachings, I always leaned toward working with women. And I found myself always wanting to ask them about their lives first.
Someone wants to talk about their business, but I want to know, like, okay, tell me what your hours look like. How much time do you have to work? What are the things that matter to you? That mattered to me because I always say, I want to help you get your life, and then you figure out what kind of business fits within that. [00:36:43]
We don't want to set up a business and then find the holes and poke your life in the little spaces that are left. That's the wrong way. That's why I called my podcast Business Life and Joy, because you can't talk about one without the other.
So I just found myself really interested in hearing women talk about their lives. And I found they were even like, you should be a life coach. I realized I can talk to you about business, but what I really loved was this life part of it, like really helping people figure out, like, I'm not spending enough time with my children. Can you please help..? How do I do that? And that's what we would do.
We would set up their business in a way that allowed it to grow but also gave them the time that they thought they didn't have to be with their family. And that's, you know, years ago, I said, at some point, I think my business is going to go beyond being for business owners. Because while I love that, there's so many other women who are not business owners who I want to reach.
And so this year really is the fruit of the vision I had to create something that reached women beyond. But I had to do each little thing along the way to get there. And now I feel like I'm really sitting in what I've really, really been meant to do. [00:37:50] I think all those things were to lead me here.
Laura Dugger: And with this most recent business, because we've talked about personal mission statements, could you also read your business statement?
Shunta Grant: Yes. So for the Best Today brand as a whole, we have... we know that the modern woman feels pressure to do it all, which results in a life of busyness. We help women get what they want in life by equipping them with resources to be proactive and intentional with their time so they can show up as their best today and every day.
Then we actually have a mission for every product we create also. So for the Best Today guide, we write, we know that the modern woman feels pressure to do it all, which results in a life filled with busyness and discontentment. That's the problem. The Best Today guide helps women get clear on what they want and provides a simple three-step process to guide them toward their vision for the future, one today at a time.
And so we do that because everything we create is mission-minded. We don't want to ever forget this one product has a mission in this world. [00:38:53] So we have our global, and then we also have, you know, everything has a mission statement that we create as well.
Laura Dugger: So you definitely know your intentional why. But with all of these values and priorities, how do you keep them top of mind?
Shunta Grant: I think they just become part of who I am. It's almost like, how do you remember your children's name? Like they're part of your life. You know, writing out my vision every day. I think that's been one of the most important things I could ever do because it just keeps getting me back to like... If you look at it... like I'm looking at my vision for the future from this morning. I talk about being generous. I talk about being healthy. I talk about my relationships. I talk about my business, the things I want us to be able to do. I talk about my home. These are the things that matter to me. And so I'm writing about them every single morning in the Best Today Guide. So that helps.
But really, I think your priorities, whether you have stated them or not, if you look at how you're using your time and your resources, there are your priorities. [00:39:53] They may not be what you want them to be, but look at how you spend your resources, that's your time, your energy, your money, and then you will find where your priorities are. So it's a part of all of us.
Laura Dugger: I wonder if this conversation is going to spur some people on to pursue their own personal growth. And are there any other ways, Shunta, that you cultivate personal growth in your own life?
Shunta Grant: I have a very small but close-knit circle of friends who can be honest with me and who I trust. I think that and really just doing the work on myself, like really challenging my thoughts, like why? But why? You know, I always try to ask myself four times, why? But why? But why? Like, why did you think that way? Especially if it's something that I don't think is helpful. I question my emotions. What can I learn from this emotion that I feel right now? That's a great question to always ask ourselves, whether the emotion is extreme gladness or frustration, anger, jealousy, whatever it is. Like ask yourself, what can I learn about myself from what I feel right now? [00:40:54] And I try to dig into that.
Laura Dugger: And the four whys, are you saying kind of four levels deep when you ask yourself why and you come up with your answer, then you ask why for that one?
Shunta Grant: Yeah. Like, why were you upset about that? Because he shouldn't have said it that way. Well, why are you mad that he said it that way? Well, because, you know... so you're asking to really... because usually it takes that many questions to get to the real root of why you are feeling that way. And that's the thing you need to deal with
Most people just deal with the top level, but until you pull out the roots, it's going to keep growing. It's going to happen again.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is so true. If everyone wants to learn more practical things like this and all of your other teachings, where would you direct them to go online?
Shunta Grant: So a great place to start would be bestadayguide.com. That is where you can learn more about the Best Today brand and the Best Today Guide. [00:41:44] And right now, our most popular program is called Right Now Routine, which helps you to create realistic routine right where you are. And you can learn more about that at rightnowroutine.com.
We just released Clean One Room, which teaches you how to stop cleaning your whole house, but instead clean one room at a time and build a routine around it. I think those are the areas that really are helping a lot of the women in our audience. And so you can find all of those things at those respective places.
Laura Dugger: Fantastic. We will link to all of that in both our show notes and on our resources tab. You may be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Shunta Grant: I think any wisdom that I can glean from the Word of God. It really is. That's what I always can go back to. And I think even scripture tells us that is what gives us health to our bones. It's what prolongs our life. [00:42:48] It really is the thing that does all the things that I really need in my life that allow me to show up and do the things that I want to do.
Laura Dugger: Shunta, I enjoy being a student of yours. And today was no exception. Thank you for the joy that you infuse in all your teaching and all the generosity you offer in sharing your ideas and insights. You're definitely an inspiration to me. And I loved hosting you as my guest today.
Shunta Grant: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:43:51] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:44:52] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:45:55]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 28, 2020
Monday Sep 28, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* Parts of this message are not intended for little ears
113. Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 17:9 says “He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.”
Bob and Audrey Meisner are best-selling authors, conference speakers, and Founders of Love Married Life ®. They both have their Doctorates in Ministry and specialize in helping marriages build and maintain phenomenal love. Their message of hope is authenticated by their own compelling story of God rescuing their marriage.
Known for their joy, transparency and practical principles, their message of God’s unconditional love, forgiveness and hope has been featured around the world through magazine articles, TV programs and churches. Bob and Audrey have four children and live in Phoenix, Arizona
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Bob and Audrey Meisner:
Like Yourself, Love Your Life by Audrey Meisner
Wake Up Smiling by Audrey Meisner
Free E-Books: My Communication Goals and My Personality Goals
Bob and Audrey Meisner’s Website
Bob and Audrey Meisner’s Podcast
Bob and Audrey Meisner’s Marriage Intensive
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
I heard an incredible story over a decade ago, and it has always stuck with me. Then recently, I came across Proverbs 17:9, and I couldn't get that story out of my head. Proverbs 17:9 says, "He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends." [00:01:20]
This scripture always reminds me of Bob and Audrey Meisner. So after I closed my Bible that day, I emailed them and requested they would be guests on this episode, and they said yes! So here we are. I hope your faith is expanded after hearing this redemptive story.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Bob and Audrey.
Audrey Meisner: Oh my gosh, we have been so excited about this. I love the title of your podcast. I just think it's so unique and fun, and I'm always about the fun.
Bob Meisner: Yeah, the time that we'll spend together, I believe, will be extremely meaningful and beneficial to the listener.
Audrey Meisner: Mm-hmm. We're honored to be here, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm so thrilled to have both of you. I've admired you from afar.
Bob Meisner: Wow.
Audrey Meisner: Aw, I love that. We're family together. I love to say that we're not just like family, because we are family. We really all share such mutual belief in knowing that Jesus is amazing. And so we get to share that together. [00:02:24]
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I'm so excited for people to hear your story. So let's just begin with you two taking us back to how you first met each other.
Audrey Meisner: We started with a friendship. Bob was my brother's roommate, my big brother's roommate. It was a friendship, but I remember the moment we started sharing hearts with each other. I remember we would have these conversations, like, "There's something about me. This is not friends anymore." And we got to get out of the friend zone.
And so it took a while. I had to, you know, drop some pretty stark hints. We started dating for a couple of months, and then we got engaged right away.
Bob Meisner: We got engaged that summer, and then we lived apart for a year. She went back to school. I went home to my home state, Michigan. And we spent, you know, basically a year apart.
Audrey Meisner: Engaged.
Bob Meisner: Engaged. And then that next summer we were married.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah.
Bob Meisner: So it was pretty quick.
Audrey Meisner: And we've been in ministry our entire lives. We immediately started working together for my parents' ministry in Canada. [00:03:24] And it was just very natural for us to love people. I think that, you know, we were very attracted to each other, like we just wanted to get married now. You know how that is once you know. And so we spent that year apart. We just dove into full-time ministry and just loved life together.
Bob Meisner: What we really enjoyed about each other, you know, from the very beginning, is that, you know, we love the Lord, we wanted to be world changers. We believed that the two of us together, we would be able to do something that we couldn't do apart from each other.
And I think that's one of the beauties of marriage, you know, where the two really come together and create a unified vision. Honestly, we are better together than we are apart.
Audrey Meisner: And so we got married, and we just... I even remember on our honeymoon, Laura, that I looked at... like we were young. We were 19 and 21. But I looked at Bob, and I said, "You know what? We could have kids, and no one could stop us. Like we're adults. No one can tell us what we can't do, you know? [00:04:25]
Bob Meisner: But we thought the wise or smart thing to do would be to at least wait a couple years.
Audrey Meisner: Yes.
Bob Meisner: So we did.
Audrey Meisner: We barely waited.
Bob Meisner: But we really wanted and loved children.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, we couldn't wait to have kids. So it was pretty early in our marriage where we had three kids in five years. We had a boy and then a girl and a boy. And just loved being parents together.
Bob Meisner: We loved married life.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I just want to say this upfront, that we all already love you and root for you. But I know we have to go through the sin and ashes to then discover the beauty that comes later. So about 17 years into your marriage, what happened?
Bob Meisner: All I could say is that I believe we had the best marriage imaginable. This was not on the radar. We weren't arguing. We weren't fighting with each other. Life wasn't difficult. In fact, life was busy. Audrey and I were very, very busy doing really good things. [00:05:26] An international children's television program. A national daily Christian TV.
Audrey Meisner: We were pastoring a church together.
Bob Meisner: We were pastoring a church. And we just thought, "What more could we do?"
Audrey Meisner: You hear the busyness of three entire careers all happening at the same time, plus raising our kids. So I remember years back when we had been in service, and I heard the words "Beware of the barrenness of busyness". And it's a really silent, covert operation when you just start making choices to just keep helping people and just losing that connection. Even though you're getting along, we just were missing the connection.
Laura Dugger: So you're in ministry, you've got children in the home right now. And at this point, their ages are teenagers?
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, they were like 10, 12, and 15 years old. Let me just set the stage for what happened here, Laura, because it was on my part, we were busy, and I was just working really hard. [00:06:29] I remember just feeling that quiet desperation of feeling trapped in my life, that we were too committed to too many things. And I was starting to dread every new day because I was the happy one. I'm the fun one.
So I've got to wake up and put that... I don't want to call it a mask because I truly was happy as far as I'm a joyful person. But the exhaustion and the over-responsibility was just weighing on me, and I never felt like I could ever do enough to get everything done in the day. I was starting to feel just literally exhausted. I was not telling him about this at all. This was a very silent struggle that I was going through.
A young guy started coming to the church that we were pastoring, and he started just asking me... He just started noticing all the work I was doing. And you know what's really weird is it just felt good for somebody to notice. He said, "Does anyone know how much you do in a day? Does anyone see what you're doing?" And I just went, "Wow." [00:07:30]
And what happened was I felt like my heart just got heard. Like somebody noticed that maybe it's not that easy or that I'm going through more than anyone might know. So he touched a place in my heart which drew me into this friendship with him.
And we were more like I was helping him, and it was just one of those relationships where, Oh, we're just friends. And I'm so glad that I can be friends with this guy because he's helping me. Now he's starting to tell me how beautiful I am and I thought, "Oh, my gosh, that feels so good. We need to get you a girlfriend." But I was just happy for the attention and happy for the help.
So this just became a friendship. That's where I can say that I made a small compromise, and that was just that I started having private email conversations with him. I started thinking, "A little compromise, I can go out for lunch with him."
This is the part that is so sobering because there's no such thing as a small compromise because when you start to lean towards sin, sin will take you further than you ever dreamed it would go. [00:08:37] Sin is never satisfied. It kept wanting more. Wanted that next conversation, wanted to get a little bit more private, maybe a little more intimate.
Before long, that friendship lasted a while, but it did turn into a sexual affair. And that is something I never dreamed that I was even capable of because I loved Jesus all my life. I love my husband. I love my kids. We're leaders. My passion is to bring people to Jesus, so now I'm carrying this intense secret. I cannot even describe to you the turmoil of living a dual life, like a duplicity of lying so that I can get out of the house.
All of a sudden, I was on this crazy train, and I was carrying this secret, and I was emotionally like a junior high person. I knew that everything that I was doing went against who I was.
After three weeks of having this sexual affair, we stopped the affair, and he immediately moved away the next day. [00:09:37] I said, "You're going to have to leave town." And that was when I just made the decision, I will never do that again. I am going to repent. No one ever needs to know about this because this will never happen again. Nobody knows, and it'll never happen again.
So there I was with my secret. I planned on keeping the secret, but it was only a couple days of me, you know, just really praying and asking God to forgive me. And I heard that still small voice in my heart saying, "You need to tell Bob." And I resisted it. I fought it. I thought, "No, no, no, no, no, no, he doesn't have to know. I'll just be such a good girl. I'll just make up for this and be really good." See, the enemy loves secrets, and the secret has a power to divide intimacy. Even if it's an unspoken secret, it has power.
A couple days after that guy left town, I'm not a confrontational person. I hadn't confronted Bob in 17 years about anything. I'm a people pleaser. [00:10:39] This is completely against me, but everything in me just fell at his feet and said, "Honey, we need to talk." And I still remember exactly where you are. When you have a moment like this in your life, you do not forget where you are.
I remember the office, the empty office. I remember the chair in the corner, and I just fell at Bob's feet and I said, "Honey, I've got to tell you something. I had an affair. I committed adultery."
Laura Dugger: Wow. And such a tender moment in the office. So, Bob, at that point when you first heard the news, how did you respond?
Bob Meisner: Not well. I could say that. It was like a real surprise because I know her. And this is completely incongruent with who she is and who we are as a couple and as a family. So I began to ask questions. I began to interrogate. I found out who it was, when. You know, it just began to compile. I just became angry. [00:11:40]
But the only thought that I had in my mind was, I don't have an answer, but I don't want this to ever happen again. So it's not just like a little oops or a hiccup in the relationship and, you know, okay, I forgive you. Let's move on.
It was like, how do I express anger? You know, how do I really show I'm really disappointed? Honestly, I was clueless of what to do. And I remember storming out of the room and I sat at my office desk and I stared at a blank wall and I just simply whispered, "Holy Spirit, I don't know what to do."
But it was that such small act of humility and he immediately answered me and he began a rescue plan for me. He began a rescue plan for my marriage, you know, for our family. And he reminded me of a gentleman that I had met about a year earlier and he said, "Call him." [00:12:40]
I called him. I let him know what I was going through, and the first question that he asked me was, "Who knows?" I said, "Nobody." He says, "Good, let's keep it that way." And I was like, "But I need to get more people involved. I mean, this is a big deal. I mean, we need to create at least a committee to figure out how are we going to fix this?"
And he said, "Bob," he says, "Don't you tell anyone until we have more time to talk later this evening." Well, that evening we got together and we, you know, sat and we spoke over a speakerphone and he began to challenge me, which I was so surprised because I was just waiting for him to begin to correct and, you know, Audrey, how could you have done this? You were so wrong. What were you thinking? None of that happened. And he began to challenge me.
I was really surprised because he began to challenge me with the heart of God. [00:13:41] Proverbs 25 too says this, "It's God's glory to conceal a matter and for a king to discover its understanding." Everything inside of me wanted to expose and wanted to shame. Everything inside of me wanted to control. It was being driven by fear. And he's challenging me with the heart of a Father, with the heart of God. And he says, "That's not his nature. He is one who covers."
Now, it's not that he turns a blind eye, it's not that he ignores, but rather He covers. And in covering, there are two primary principles. The first one is to protect from any further injury or harm. And then the second one is to promote healing. When we've been caught or wounded, we go immediately and we cover that wound. We protect that wound.
Everything inside of me wanted to expose and to shame Audrey. [00:14:41] There was so much fear inside of me. I just wanted to force my will. But that's not the heart of God. God covers and He covers me. And so I'm being challenged that very first night, Bob, will you cover your wife? Rather than exposing her, rather than shaming her, would you sense the love of God? And would you love her? And would you cover her?
You see, I think so often when these kinds of things happen, we blow them up and we just really prolong the healing process. And it's just like, what is the heart of God? I mean, I was being really challenged. And all that I knew is that I was out of my mind and this man knows something that I don't. So I had to trust him. I had to believe him.
And so that began. Then the next day, Audrey told her parents. We were living in Winnipeg. [00:15:42] We went to Phoenix for about a week. We got some help there. And it was almost as though, Okay, we're on a path of recovery.
Laura Dugger: I can hear the tenderness as you both share this and just God's grace is so evident.
Bob Meisner: You know what, Laura? I want to underscore that. A lot of people can misinterpret it and think, Oh, man, that dude's still hurting over this. Well, you know, it hurts. But when I go back and I remember moments like this, I become tender and I can feel the emotion because it was in my deepest hurt, in my deepest pain where I have been the most loved. And when I sense and feel and I know that love, it's wow. You see, it's love that really does conquer all. [00:16:43]
Audrey Meisner: It's those times of pain where you just experience Jesus like you never even dreamed.
Bob Meisner: That love is so real.
Audrey Meisner: It's so real. And when you need Him, He's there. Everyone who's been in a lot of pain knows what it feels like when you go to bed and Jesus is the last thing before you close off. And when you first wake up, you need Him so much.
So we got through those first couple weeks. I can't say it was easy. It was so painful, the continual interrogation, you know, just needing details, of course, of what I did. And every time I'd answer a question, I would just feel ripped from the inside of me that I have to say out loud what I had done.
After about two weeks, we were okay, like, considering what was happening. That's when we found out... We went to a doctor's office and we found out that I had become pregnant as a result of the affair. And I remember walking to that doctor's office and I thought, "When I told Bob about this affair, I didn't think I could face my future. [00:17:46] But now that I was pregnant, I didn't think I could face my life.
I didn't see any form or idea of hope because this baby would not look like the other kids. The other kids are like 10, 12, and 15 years old. The enemy just screamed in my head, "You're going to be known for the rest of your life for this most stupid and selfish thing that you've ever done. And your kids are going to have to pay. Their lives are going to be broken and tainted and confused."
I love my kids so much. And the thought of them having to pay for my selfishness in some way in their lives, like, it's just such a contradiction because I just want to protect my kids from pain. And here this is going to be like a forever stain on our family.
I didn't know what to do. To say I was scared is an understatement. I was scared out of my mind. As I said, the baby won't look like the others. [00:18:45] It's going to be obvious to everyone. I'm disqualified from everything I felt like I was born to do, which was to love people and tell people about Jesus.
A couple days after I found that out, I was alone in the kitchen and I was in torment and I made a phone call and I called the abortion clinic. And I said, "What do I do if I have to remain anonymous? What do I do?" And they said, "Oh, it's really easy. You just have to give us your address and we'll send you 10 pills in the mail. And you just take one every week for 10 weeks and your problem will be gone."
And I hung up the phone and I fell to my knees. And I just said, "Father, I said, you're my dad. You're my dad in heaven." And I said, "Please, please, I know I can't get an abortion because two wrongs do not make a right. Everything in me is saying I can't destroy this baby. [00:19:47] But Father, if you love me, if you love me, I've wanted to serve you all my conscious years since I was three years old. I just want to serve you. But if you could just please, please, I'm begging you, take this baby to heaven now."
I begged him for a miscarriage. So just take this baby to heaven. And as I say that, it's so emotional for me because I'm sitting here today just saying he did not answer that prayer. You know how we have these great ideas of how God could fix everything. But He says, "You know what? I'm not going to evacuate you out of your circumstances. But, Audrey, I'm going to come right to where you are and I'm going to hold you. And together, we are going to take it one day at a time and we are going to walk through."
The famous Psalm says, "Though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you fear no evil for I'm with you and my rod and my staff they comfort you." [00:20:48] And just that word "comfort" because every day He comforts us.
And when we're in pain and fear, so scared that we can't make it through, His presence becomes so real and His hope becomes your anchor that that's the only thing that you can hope for. So I didn't follow through with that.
It was a couple of days later, I was alone in the car with my dad and I have a very, very merciful, loving, earthly dad. I was alone in the car with him and I felt so safe with him because he wasn't judging me. And I said, "Dad, I don't know what to do because there's a baby. I don't know how to face my life because there's a baby.
And he put his hand on my shoulder and he just said one thing. He said, "Audrey, that's what you did. But that is not who you are." [00:21:48] And those words came over me and I chose to make those the forefront of my every day, all day. That is what I did but that is not who I am.
People in this world and on this earth will judge you by your worst mistake. But my heavenly father calls me His own. He calls me his daughter. And He says that He's never going to leave me. He's never going to turn his back on me. But he's going to be with me.
Laura Dugger: And what I admire about both of you is that in these times of distress, you turned toward the Lord, you called out for Him and he answered with loving kindness as He always does.
Audrey Meisner: So true, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. [00:22:54] Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.
I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.
To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:23:58]
Laura Dugger: And so at this point, how did you choose together to tell your children the news?
Bob Meisner: We resigned all of our positions, you know, living there in Canada, and we moved to Phoenix, Arizona. I'm a born American citizen, and so we were able to do that. But it wasn't that we were running from anything, but rather we were going to a place. We needed help. I knew that in and of myself, I didn't have it. So I needed direction.
You know, as Audrey said earlier, I don't want to mess up my family. You see, in my life, I know the pains of divorce as a young person, you know, with my parents walking through it. And it's just like, I don't want my kids to experience this. And so, God, I need you to be real. And that's what you're saying, Laura. We turned to Him. [00:24:57] But then all of a sudden, everything that you know about or believe about God, I need it to be real. I need it to be for me. That was where I was going.
Because everything that I had learned, everything that I had ever read, anything that I had ever preached, I needed it to be my reality. And so I just began to press hard, recognizing how deficient I was. But He is my source. And so Audrey's about four months pregnant and it was just after dinner one evening and I'm going through the process and I'm being challenged again in my heart by my pastor. You know, you can cover Audrey. And so I'm learning this covering. And it's not just how I cover her. But you can't give what you first don't experience. And I'm going through the process of experiencing the extravagance of the Father's love and He's covering me. You see, He's more than enough for me. And when that becomes mine, now I can give it away.
So she's four months pregnant, we have, you know, a typical classic Meisner family meeting up in the bedroom. And the kids walk in, and they enter the room and they see their mom and dad sitting on the floor crying. I remember my 15-year-old son. Just fear gripped his heart. And you could see it on his face. It's just like, uh-oh, something's really wrong. [00:26:34]
My daughter, 13, she comes in, and my son, 10 years old, he comes in, and here we are, a family of five and everything's about to change. But before I said one word, I stood up and I went and I pulled a large queen-size blanket from the bed. And I took that blanket and I covered Audrey from head to foot. And then I knelt down beside her and I wrapped my arms around her and I held her tight. And I looked deep into my children's eyes and I said, "Kids, this is what God does when we make a mistake. He comes to us and He covers us. He wraps His arms around us and He begins to whisper, 'I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you.'"
With Audrey covered and held in my arms, I looked deep in my children's eyes and I said, "Kids, we're a family. I'm not going anywhere. [00:27:36] We belong with each other." And with Audrey fully covered, I said, "Kids, your mom has made a mistake but you're going to have a baby brother."
Well, immediately, my oldest son, he's crying. He understood what had happened. My daughter, she's crying. But it only took her but a moment. And she begins to grin from ear to ear and she stares me down. And she says, "Daddy, we're having a baby." And she feels my pain and starts to cry. But she cannot contain the excitement. And she just looks at me eye to eye, "Daddy, we're having a baby."
My 10-year-old son, David, he's watching all of this and he says, "I just don't get it." He says, "At least I'm not going to be the youngest anymore." That's how we told our kids. We went from that room as a family. We're a family. And we belong with each other. [00:28:39]
We had, again, good days-
Audrey Meisner: It wasn't always easy.
Bob Meisner: Oh, gosh, not always easy.
Audrey Meisner: It was the hardest. Absolutely one of the most challenging days of our life where God was meeting us in those days.
Bob Meisner: Yeah. Audrey would grow and get larger and my daughter is just loving this baby, you know, rubbing Mommy's tummy, talking to the baby, you know. And then she would look at me as like, "Is this okay, Dad?" And I'm like, "Yes, sweetheart. You love that baby with everything that you've got."
And so it was. It was very, very challenging for me. And there was just such an immaturity. I needed to grow up. And I had no idea the depth of that in my own life.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Now how has life changed for both of you since that moment?
Bob Meisner: I'd like to kind of share with the people how this baby was born. I mean, that's a pretty cool day. [00:29:40] But I'll back it up just a little bit, because I kept asking my pastor, my friend, to help me, you know, just tell me what to do and he continually refused, because it's just like, I've got to get to God's throne room myself. I don't need him to be my answer. I need God to be my answer. I need Him to be my source.
But this one morning, we're having just a quick coffee together and I'm like, what do I do? Because I had a real national presence. So I had people calling me saying, "Bob and Audrey, you're doing so good, but you can't keep this baby. Don't bring that added pressure to your marriage. Don't bring that to your children." We have people in the church, "You can adopt this baby out."
So that morning I was with Him, and I'm just like, "Leo, what do I do? What do I do?" Finally, it was almost as though he had enough of me, and he says, "Bob, there's a baby on your doorstep. [00:30:42] What do you do? Will you participate with this fatherless generation, or will you become a father to the fatherless? You've got to grow up."
Probably one of the most loving things I ever experienced. So we went to the hospital, and it was probably just a few months later. And I choose my words very carefully. When my son was born, when our son was born, I gave him my name, Robert, because I don't want him to ever question a day in his life whose boy he is. He's my son, and he belongs. His middle name is Theodore, which means divine gift, because he's not an accident. He's not a mistake. He's not the result of a sexual affair. But just like my other three children, born out of the heart of God and entrusted to us, we're a family. [00:31:52]
Laura Dugger: Yeah. Wow. That is incredible. Thank you so much. Both of you just bringing us into that to see what that experience was like. You've mentioned God throughout the entire process, but He had even more in store for the two of you.
And, Audrey, Satan was whispering to you that this would ruin your plans forever and you couldn't do ministry and yet He's used this. So can you share what has come since that point in both of your lives?
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. It was a process. You know, we can't shortcut a healing process. We never dreamed in a million years that we would ever start sharing our story. The process of healing changed. And once Robert was born, there was a shift in our home where it was just sort of like this closure, like this new reality, new normal.
Bob Meisner: Because what was concealed is now revealed. Here he is. So as a family, we just began to grow with each other. [00:32:51]
Audrey Meisner: And it was just amazing to me how the kids to this day have embraced Robert. Like there is no difference other than he's a lot younger and maybe a little bit darker. But I mean, my goodness, like we are a family with four kids.
But how this is what happened is a couple years later, we were asked to share this story. And I was like, "Whoa, like I don't want..." Like that was-
Bob Meisner: That was terrifying.
Audrey Meisner: That was terrifying for sure.
Bob Meisner: I do want to say this. After a couple of years, it was almost as though we were right back into ministry. We were right back to where we were previous. And yet it was like this isn't what we want. And it's almost as though we're back into this tandem lifestyle again. And it's like we are missing the benefit of our union of oneness. There's a place where you kind of modify behavior. You weather the storm but-
Audrey Meisner: But we started to slip. We started to slip back in the same rut of being busy and getting into that. [00:33:54]
Bob Meisner: That routine and busyness.
Audrey Meisner: But then something in us we just knew wasn't okay. I went through an experience where after two years, Bob was really in a depression because I think he could just feel that we haven't really dealt with this in a way.
Bob Meisner: And I'm trying to be okay.
Audrey Meisner: He's trying to be okay.
Bob Meisner: I'm managing my anger. You see, I'm managing the images and the thoughts that I have. But again, it was challenging.
Audrey Meisner: It was. I remember one day when I just had done everything I could to fix him and be better and perform and be the most amazing wife ever. But I remember when God whispered into my heart and He said, "You know what, Audrey, changing Bob isn't your job. The most irresistible thing that you can do for your husband is stop trying to change him or fix him or heal him or make him better."
There was a day I remember when I just released Bob and said, "God, I trust you with him." And something transformed in my heart. And it was just a couple of years later when we went through a very deep moment where I saw myself as Jesus saw me so righteous and clean. [00:35:00] I don't have to prove myself anymore.
Then later that same weekend, Bob had a moment where he absolutely chose to rescue me rather than judge me. And those experiences turned into something very transformational in our hearts. And now we started to feel the strength of the story rather than the fear of our story or the sadness in our story. We started to feel God restoring us and redeeming this.
There became this presence of God that would come. And when we first told our story, marriages started to say, Wow, if you can do that, then we can work through our stuff. And we began growing in our understanding of what the contributing factors were that brought us to that point.
We started dealing with unresolved conflict that had been there right from the very beginning that we didn't have the skills to navigate. And it turned into writing books and a marriage ministry and, you know, our children growing up together and seeing true... [00:36:06]
There's no performance or fakeness in the life that we have where our kids. Yeah, we're not perfect but there is just this atmosphere of love in our house. We've actually named our house the House of Mercy, where we don't want our kids running away from home when they mess up. We want our kids running to home because this is our house of mercy. And we do real life together.
Laura Dugger: Amen to all of that, especially that none of us are perfect.
Hey, friends, we appreciate you so much. Over 100 of you have left a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and you have no idea how much that helps The Savvy Sauce podcast.
Basically, the more ratings and reviews we have, the more Apple Podcasts shares our podcast to help others easily discover it. Also, when we gain more listeners, high quality guests are more likely to agree to come on for future interviews and sponsors are willing to fund our work so we can continue sharing this practical and biblical teaching through these conversations. [00:37:12]
You are a critical part of this process. So thank you for generously giving your time to give us a five-star rating and review.
We certainly can all learn from our own and even others' mistakes. What do you think is the biggest lesson that God taught each of you about your part in your marriage not going the way you had originally envisioned?
Audrey Meisner: Well, you asked both of us, so I'll go first. Basically, one of the biggest lessons I learned was that I had never understood or had the skill to navigate disappointment. Early on in our marriage, I had felt disappointed with Bob, but I never learned how to voice that, how to express it, how to be honest about it.
So when I would try to voice a disappointment, it would turn into a conflict where I would feel attacked and I would shut down. And that became a pattern in our life where disappointment turned into unresolved conflict, which turned into despair. And it resulted in not having an honest and real relationship in a deep kind of a way. [00:38:17] And I can see now that that affected me right from the beginning.
Bob Meisner: There are definitely foundational things that are in there. And boy, what a question, Laura. Just one? Are you kidding me?
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. What is the biggest lesson? I just gave you a big lesson. There's like a million of them. I just chose one. You know what I mean?
Bob Meisner: When people begin to get help or they're recognizing they're having a breakdown in their relationship, usually it goes to a place of communication. For us, I felt like we communicated, but we really didn't. What we found is that... you know, typically in psychology, you have the passive, the aggressive, passive-aggressive, and the assertive. I throw in a fifth one. And that fifth one is the Jesus model.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. I love Jesus model.
Bob Meisner: And Jesus teaches in communication to speak the truth in love. [00:39:18]
Audrey Meisner: Yes.
Bob Meisner: And what we found in our relationship is that I had no problem speaking truth.
Audrey Meisner: Came natural to you.
Bob Meisner: But bringing it in a loving way, wow, did that ever have to change? And then for Audrey-
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, for me, I was really going to be loving and sweet and nice and kind. But I just held back truth of how I was really feeling or truth about how I was... you know, in the deepest part of me, I just hid that and thought, Oh, I can just choose what I'll tell Bob. If it's going to cause a conflict, then I'll just not say it. So I was really good at speaking love, 100 percent love, but my truth wasn't as strong. I have realized since then Bob feels most loved when I'm truthful.
Bob Meisner: So that was one of them. The other is that I wanted to blame her and the circumstances and I wanted that to give me permission to be angry, to be distant, to withhold, to be unloving. [00:40:18] Why? Because it's your fault. And then we shift blame. And you might think, well, yeah, of course. And it's like, No, I can't change anyone but I can take personal responsibility for me. So I had to learn what is it to be a husband, to be a father. I am so thankful that I'm not the person I used to be-
Audrey Meisner: Me too. I mean, I meant to vote me, Bob. I did not mean that about you. But I am, to be honest.
Bob Meisner: Thank God for fixing my husband.
Audrey Meisner: No, no, no. I'm glad that I'm not the person I used to be too. But we're both on it. I have to admit. I am glad you're not the person you used to be. Because you're much nicer now. You're a lot kinder. We've both taken serious personal responsibility for how we have over, in our personality and in our behavior styles, when you overuse your strengths, they become your weakness.
Bob Meisner: You know, one of the things people look for is why. You know, you drill it into the other person. Why did you do this? Why did you say that? And it's always linked to a judgment. And what you want to do is you want to hang blame somewhere. There isn't one logical explanation that would ever make it okay.
Audrey Meisner: Would you make it feel better? It's never going to feel okay. No.
Bob Meisner: No. It was wrong. It never should have happened, but it did. So where do we go to from here? [00:41:46]
Laura Dugger: It sounds like you just resisted that victim mentality and chose the remedy, like you're saying, of just-
Bob Meisner: I was a good victim, Laura. I was. Because it's easy. Because then people would come and say to me, "Hey, Bob, why are you so sad? Why do I sense this sadness about you?" And it's just like, "Oh, here, you don't know my story. Let me tell you my story." And then all of a sudden, they're just like, "Oh, I get it." You see?
I always relate that to blind Bartimaeus, where he goes to Jesus, but before he goes to meet Him, it says that he removed His garment and He went to Jesus, and Jesus asked Him this question. He says, "Bartimaeus, what do you want?" He says, "I want to see." And better phrased this way, what are you willing for me to do for you? [00:42:46]
And Bartimaeus is like, "Lord, I want to regain sight." But him removing his garment is very important because that garment that he wore identified him as a legitimate blind man worthy of receiving alms. You see, I could have worn a garment the rest of my life and I could say, yeah, I'm this way because of, and now I live circumstantially, you know, because of this and then I blame and on and on. But it was just like, I'm going to leave that garment behind. Jesus, open my eyes. I need your perspective. I don't see right. I'm blind. I'm angry. You see, I'm resentful. Jesus, I need to see what you see. And that was a huge transformational journey for me.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And on this unexpected journey, is there anything else that either of you have discovered that you'd like to share with either a single or a married couple that's listening right now? [00:43:49]
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. Probably that your spouse... like no one's responsible to make you happy. No one can be your source, but Jesus. For me, when I was in that place of quiet desperation, I needed Jesus, but I needed to get honest with Him to create a space where you really experience Jesus. You don't just know about Him and you don't just pray to Him using nice language, but you actually, you know, experiences love and you can go to your secret place.
But as you're there in that place, as you close your eyes, just say, Jesus, I need you and you are my source. And then whenever I try and expect Bob to be my source for anything, it can result in disappointment. It's never fair to see someone as your source. Bob is my number one contributor, but he is not my source.
So for a single person, you know what? You need Jesus. Jesus is your source for absolutely everything. As a married person, he's your source. That's how we're protected from becoming users in relationships. [00:44:51] We want to love because we are so loved. You know, like experience God's love so that you can love others.
Bob Meisner: Something I'd like to bring out is that in fear... fear will always create worst-case scenario.
Audrey Meisner: Right.
Bob Meisner: And fear will always control. So you'll either be controlling to others or that emotion will want to drive your life. I remember when I had the first thought and it was like my first panic attack. The first time I had ever had the thought, what do I do if she's pregnant? And I remember where I was walking with Audrey and my pastor and I'm like, "I'm going to drop this bombshell of a question. I mean, it's going to stump him because I don't know what to do." So I asked him and I just said, "Leo, what do I do if she's pregnant?" Because for me, I'm thinking this is a game changer. There is no marriage after this.
But before I could even finish asking the question, he immediately responded, "Bob, His grace will be more than enough for you." [00:45:56] I tell you, Laura, I remember it was... I clenched my fist and it's just like, dude, I'll take you out right now. No, really. I was just like, don't give me this religious cliché. This is my life that we're talking about. I mean, this is that inner war that happens in nanoseconds.
But immediately the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said, "Bob, this man knows something about my nature and character you know nothing about. My grace is more than enough for you." And that began my journey to His throne room, you see, for His enablement, His empowerment for my life, for His realities to become mine. That began my journey because I recognized how deficient I was in love. And He is love.
Laura Dugger: That is just incredible to hear you both even just sum it up that way. And clearly, you are such a wise and encouraging couple. [00:46:59]
Audrey Meisner: Aw, I love it. That is our heart. We sure want to love people, that's for sure.
Bob Meisner: I know there's people that listen. And it's not that your marriage has to be on the rocks for this to be applicable. But you get to know the God who designed you, who has dreamed you up. And no matter where you are, I can say with absolute confidence in Jesus, your best days really are ahead of you.
Audrey Meisner: And your Redeemer lives because I didn't think there was a redemption to this story. But I think of the people who have had an abortion that are listening and it hurts. I think of the people who have had a divorce that are listening and saying, we didn't know this when I got a divorce. And I didn't know what kind of painful road I was going to go on and stuff.
And I just want to say to those people, whatever has happened, yes, those are the facts of life, but even you get to draw a line in the sand today and just choose and decide to shout it from the housetops that your Redeemer lives. [00:48:02] I speak it right to your heart. Your Redeemer lives, you guys. I know you don't see the happy ending to the story, but there's not... And maybe your story didn't end like ours, but there is redemption and there is future. There is hope just because Jesus is so creative. He can innovate a new plan and a new idea for your life that you could never have imagined.
Laura Dugger: Yes, and amen. Where can listeners go to gain even more encouragement from both of you?
Audrey Meisner: Our website is lovemarriedlife.com. I love that we have some free eBooks there because they're kind of some of our favorite subjects. Like My Personality Goals talks about how in our personal behavior... Bob and I are so different. Like Bob loves to do things right and I love to do things fast. So we're very different in our approach to everything.
Bob Meisner: But yet when we got married, we thought we were identical.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, right. So we've really developed free eBook called My Personality Goals. [00:49:04] We have developed just helping people understand that when you overuse your strength, that's when they become your blind spots. But when you can understand your spouse, it just brings a lot of help.
So My Personality Goals, that's for singles or married. And My Communication Goals, those two free eBooks, I encourage people to download those. And then listen to our podcast called All About Relationships.
Also, a lot of couples come for deep, intense, where they come to our house in Phoenix for three days and we do an intensive. They stay at a hotel, but we spend eight hours a day and we do a three-day intensive with couples.
This has been my favorite part of ministry because we see couples... they might be some couples just to come to learn how to minister to others. But in three days to invest eight hours a day to get to the deep-rooted destructive cycles that keep you going around and around and around the same laps. We get to help you break those. [00:49:58] And that's probably one of my favorite things about what we do.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I always like to remind listeners, if this is your first time with us, we will always link to all of these resources.
Audrey Meisner: Oh, thank you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Yes. We want to make it very easy for you to find Bob and Audrey. And you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce-
Audrey Meisner: Yes! I love it. So "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for each of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Audrey Meisner: Oh, I love this question. I think our savvy sauce together is that we are so different and we refuse to see each other as our problem. But I see Bob as my gift. And then we can sing a song together when we are in harmony.
Bob Meisner: Behavioral modification, it will only take you so far. We really work towards a heart transformation. Because it's from the heart that emerges all the boundaries of our life. [00:51:00] In other words, every sense of limitation that we experience, it really does flow from the heart.
And we can spend an entire lifetime focusing on the problems or the limitations that we perceive that are outside of our influence. But in reality, these limitations are based on what I believe about myself in my heart to be true, whether that be good or bad.
Proverbs 4:23 says, "Guard your heart above all else." And so I want to live transformed. It's a great feeling to live clean, you know, tailor your behavior. You know, boy, am I ever being good. It gets to be exhausting. When people oftentimes read a book, attend a marriage seminar, it's like they walk away with another 10 things to do, another list. It only works as long as you're working the list. I want to live free.
Audrey Meisner: Is that your savvy sauce, Bob? [00:52:01]
Bob Meisner: Different than living clean. I want to live free. And that's where we experience effortless victory through a transformed heart.
Audrey Meisner: Because life becomes easy and fun. We believe that marriage is fun.
Bob Meisner: Yeah, fun.
Audrey Meisner: There is our savvy sauce.
Bob Meisner: Some people think it's hard. No, no, it's intentional.
Audrey Meisner: I get that.
Bob Meisner: But boy, it is fun.
Audrey Meisner: So in a word, our savvy sauce is marriage is fun.
Bob Meisner: Okay.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Well, Bob and Audrey, your story just does not cease to amaze me because it does point to a loving and patient and gracious Heavenly Father who is in the ministry of reconciliation. So thank you for sharing your story with all of us today.
Bob Meisner: Thank you.
Audrey Meisner: Thank you for just finding us and for loving us and inviting us. We feel really loved by you. Thank you, Laura.
Bob Meisner: Thank you.
Audrey Meisner: We thank you for all your amazing listeners.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. [00:53:00] Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:54:02]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:55:04]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:56:00] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 21, 2020
Monday Sep 21, 2020
112. Stewardship as the Daughter of Chick-fil-A Founders with Trudy Cathy White
**Transcription Below**
Acts 20:35(b) NIV “remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive,’"
Trudy Cathy White is a native Georgian and the only daughter of Jeannette and S. Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, Inc. Trudy has held various roles within Chick-fil-A, including that of a restaurant operator, and she and her husband, John, served as missionaries in Brazil and later they co-founded Lifeshape and Impact 360 Institute. She is a speaker, author, dedicated wife, mother of four, and grandmother of 15.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Trudy Cathy White:
A Quiet Strength: The Life and Legacy of Jeannette M. Cathy
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Samaritan Ministries
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries offers a biblical solution to healthcare, connecting you to other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Trudy Cathy White is an incredible woman, and I'm excited for this conversation as she's going to share stories and little snippets of wise advice as we reflect on the life of her parents who founded Chick-fil-A. But we are going to especially focus on her mom, Jeannette Cathy, and her contribution to the world.
Trudy is a gifted author, and her most recent book is titled A Quiet Strength: The Life and Legacy of Jeannette M. Cathy.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Trudy.
Trudy Cathy White: Thank you. It's an honor to be here with you today, Laura. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start here. Will you first tell us a bit more about yourself?
Trudy Cathy White: Certainly. I am the only girl in my family. I have two older brothers, married now with four grown children, and 15 grandchildren, if you can imagine. The Lord has taken me from living in the States to being a missionary in Brazil with our family. Two of our youngest children were born there.
I am a person who is passionate about people. I love investing in relationships. And really honored to have this time with you today here.
Laura Dugger: Well, I feel the same way. I personally believe that heroes are so important because they give us real-life examples of imperfect people who still have these high standards that inspire us to grow. And I think it's obvious that your mom is one of your heroes. So will you share more of her story in hopes that we can catch a glimpse of her powerful contribution to the world? [00:02:16]
Trudy Cathy White: Yeah, most definitely. You know, a lot of people know about my dad, Truett Cathy. He's the founder of Chick-fil-A. But my mom, Jeannette Cathy, is a person that very few people had a chance to know. The reason I've written the book, A Quiet Strength, is because I want people to know her story.
Here's something about her. She was raised by a single mom. She was an only child. Her earthly father walked down on her when she was just a baby in arms. So she actually never, ever met her earthly father. But when she was about five years old, a friend introduced her to her heavenly Father and introduced her to some scripture that says, If you will believe and receive, you can become a child of God.
My mother was just elated to know that she actually could have a father, and her father would be her perfect father for the rest of her life. So if she were doing this interview today with you, Laura, she would say, don't feel sorry for me because I've had a perfect Father my whole life. And that just ignited her walk with the Lord and her intimacy that she learned scripture. [00:03:21] She had a passion for wanting to know God's word, to memorize it.
I just so looked up to her because she just dedicated her life to being a follower of Christ. She was a gifted dancer. She loved to sing. She was a great vocalist. She learned to play the trumpet. When she was 65 years of age, she decided she'd love to paint. And so she went and bought some canvas and oils. She's a self-taught artist at the age of 65.
I like to remind people that when she was 80, she got her first computer. I think she was almost 90 years old when she decided everybody was using these things called iPhones, and she had a flip phone, and she decided she wanted to get her iPhone and learn how to use it. So she was a lifelong learner.
So as a person that I looked up to, I realized that, man, she has taught me an awful lot just by the way she's lived her life.
Laura Dugger: Oh, certainly. And I just appreciate you sharing and even elaborating on all of these stories in your book. [00:04:21] I found it to be an incredible book that was easy to read and very inspiring. But I noticed through reading your book that you do come from a line of faithful women who stepped up to care for their families. And sometimes they even shouldered the responsibility entirely. So how has that impacted you?
Trudy Cathy White: I think what I saw in my mother's life was this kind of can-do attitude, so to speak. She would often tell me or my father or any of our family members when we were disappointed or discouraged about something. She would say, "You know, you can get through this with God or you can do this with God."
And I just so appreciated that kind of outlook to life. She always was seeing the positive side of things, even though life wasn't always easy for her. She had her own share of challenges. We grew up south of Atlanta in a small farm, really, really in the country. She couldn't get a lot of help to take care of things around the house. [00:05:24] She would learn how to fix things herself just because she couldn't get anybody else to do it. She just approached life with such a positive attitude.
I remember for myself when we were living in Brazil, we had to learn to speak Portuguese, which is not an easy language. As an adult, it's hard to learn any other language anyway if you've never tried it before. But I remember specifically a situation where I was done. I just felt like I could not learn this language. I was very angry with God for the fact that he took us to another country, I was struggling really hard with communicating with people. And I just said, "Lord, I can't do this anymore."
And I paused. I didn't hear an audible voice, but I knew that God was speaking to me. And what He told me at that moment was, "Trudy, you are right where I want you to be. I want you to realize that you don't live your life on your own. You're going to have to depend on Me. And I'm glad you've got to feel like you can't do this because I can do this through you." [00:06:24]
It just took me back to my mother's attitude and realizing the fact that, you know, you can with God. The Bible says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So recognizing that my mother's strength came from her walk with the Lord and her can-do attitude about life really had a lot to do with that relationship with the Lord.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing that personal example. I think that's inspiring, especially as a parent, when I think probably so many of us just feel inadequate in this role. It sounds like you're just encouraging us, just turn toward your heavenly Father because we can do it through Him.
Trudy Cathy White: Exactly right.
Laura Dugger: Well, one example that you give of your mom's character comes from page 28, where you write, "College wasn't that unusual for women in the early 1940s, but seminary was a different matter. Her boldness in leaving home and heading to New Orleans all alone to study God's word and prepare for ministry service has always been a powerful encouragement to me." [00:07:27] So, Trudy, will you just say more about that?
Trudy Cathy White: You know, when you think about my mother's life, when she graduated from high school, she wanted so much to continue her education. She got her a full time job working in downtown Atlanta. But a group of ladies in her local church knew of her desire to go on to college and even to take some classes at seminary, what she really wanted to do. And they pulled their resources together to allow her to be able to go to school.
So a few years after high school graduation, she found herself going to college, taking classes, and then she was able to go to seminary and take some courses. She never completely finished her time, but... that was back in the 40s, early 40s and that's very unheard of for women to be at seminary in those times.
And I'll tell you, you know, my mom oftentimes reminded me that when she was at seminary, she just figured she probably would marry someone who was going into the ministry, probably somebody who was going to be a pastor of a church. [00:08:27] But she didn't, as we all know. She ended up marrying this man that invented what we know of today as Chick-fil-A, somebody that was in the restaurant business.
But it's very interesting because when I look at my mom and dad's life, I realize that my dad often said that he saw his work as his ministry. And when we serve others, whether it's food or whatever it is, you know, we are able to be a minister to other people that meet their needs.
So I went on to be a missionary. I don't think my mother was really surprised about that. Perhaps some of the things that she had dreamed that she might do someday actually came to fruition through my own life.
But later, after my mom had passed away, I was cleaning through their things, and I found a piece of paper where my mother had written down some things about me. And she said, "Trudy loves children. She may be a pediatrician or maybe a missionary somewhere."
That was pretty cool to find that piece of paper and realize that the power of influence that mother had had over my life. [00:09:28] I think she prayed an awful lot for me. And she always wanted her children to be obedient to God. So I'm thankful for her encouragement in that way.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is a powerful story just to think of a mother's influence. And are there any other examples of choices that you've made due to her example with her boldness and her strong work ethic?
Trudy Cathy White: You know, I think that when I think about her boldness, I think she has instilled in me a sense of confidence. Not so much confidence in myself, but confidence in who made me.
When we were little growing up, my mother had this tradition. She would stand at the back door, and as we would head out to school, my brothers and I, she would say, "Now remember who you are and whose you are." And when she would speak that over us as teenagers, you know, I thought, oh, yeah, whatever, mother.
But as I got older, I realized that life wasn't about me, that my identity was not wrapped up in who I was related to or maybe even what I did or even what I had. [00:10:35] But my identity was wrapped up in my relationship with Christ and what He says about me and who I am.
So I think that mother transferred that sense of boldness and confidence into my life through just little things that she would say like that. But more than anything was through just the example of how she lived her life. Because, Laura, I like to remind parents that raising children, it's not an easy task by any means. It's a lot of hard work.
Oftentimes we get concerned because we kind of feel like our children just aren't listening to us. We feel like we say the same thing over and over and over to them. And we kind of wonder, are they ever going to get it, you know?
But I like to remind parents that actually don't be so concerned that your children aren't listening to you. But be a bit concerned that they're watching you all the time. Are you living out the kind of life you would like to see them live at some point in their life?
Now, my mom wasn't a perfect mother. I don't want anybody to think that. [00:11:34] But she certainly was intentional in how she lived her life in a way that set up a great role model for me and a great example for me, both as a person, as a married couple, and in how to raise a family.
Laura Dugger: That's a wonderful reminder and a challenge to each of us. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I want to say thank you to today's sponsor, Samaritan Ministries. God's love is steadfast and true. He cares for us as we are called to care for one another. Samaritan Ministries connects hundreds of thousands of Christians across the nation who care for one another through prayer, encouragement, and financial support for medical needs.
As a healthcare-sharing ministry, there are no networks. It is affordable, and you can join today. Each month, Samaritan members send their financial gift directly to a member with a medical need, pray, and send a note of encouragement, all while reflecting God's love and care. [00:12:39]
Members like Kelsey, who experienced a life-altering moment when she was diagnosed with breast cancer, while she had many decisions to make, how she was going to pay for treatment was not one of them. Kelsey had the freedom to choose the type of treatment she desired. And the notes she received from other members encouraged her when she needed it the most.
You too can find comfort in the prayers, encouragement, and direct financial support from other members who strive to minister to all aspects of your healthcare need, spiritual, emotional, physical, and financial. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: I think this is kind of a big question, so I'll try and provide a lot of context. I think that many people can relate to this topic of feeling torn between mothering and their vocational calling, if their calling requires them to take some time away from their children. [00:13:40] And I just remember reading that you always thought you would be a stay-at-home mom, but God kind of had a different idea.
So what did that wrestling look like as you left your young kids in others' care sometimes to go with your husband for these language development classes while you lived in Brazil?
Trudy Cathy White: I think any time that I felt I had to leave my children to go do something outside of the home, work-related or studying or whatever, I remember kind of being afraid to leave my children with other people. I didn't think they could do as good a job as I was doing. And I was somewhat fearful.
But I also remember when we were living in Brazil, there was a sweet little lady that came and watched my children while I spent my time in language school in the afternoon, and she didn't speak any English either. So that kind of compounded the fears because not only, you know, I couldn't communicate really well with her, and my children were little, and I didn't know how they were going to kind of communicate.
But you know what I found through the years is watching for how God affirms our steps and things that we're doing and how He just kind of... maybe you would call them like God winks. [00:14:49] He just lets you know, "Hey, I'm in the middle of this with you."
Because I remember spending some time with this lady who was caring for my children and helping her to know how to care for them. And then one particular afternoon, I wanted her to know I love to sing to my children when I'm around them. I just kind of broke out singing because I did not say that to her since she couldn't understand English. So I started singing Jesus loves me.
And I got about halfway through the song and she joined with me singing Jesus Loves Me. And we finished that song singing together. I was singing in English and she was singing in Portuguese. But through that singing together, I realized that she, too, was a believer. She was a follower of Christ. She had a beautiful smile that radiated from her after we finished singing that song.
And it was almost as if God was saying, "Trudy, I love you and I love this lady named [Cleoza?], and I'm going to help you. I'm going to make sure your children are taken care of."
So I would want to encourage parents who have to work maybe outside the home or do things that it's just so very important that you realize that when you ask God to be a part of even your little details and concerns of life, he will be. [00:15:58] He wants to be intricately involved in our lives.
I'll even say this, that we talk a lot about finding the right balance, the balance between your family and the balance between work. And I relate that more to, you know, if you're riding a bicycle, you have to kind of lean sometimes to the left and sometimes to the right to kind of keep that bicycle upright.
And I think when we're going through life, this is the way I have found that sometimes I have to lean into my family a little bit more because there are certain seasons where they need me more. There are other times when I can lean the other way a little bit more, in my work focus, with my staff, or with my responsibilities, whatever that is. And it's not like I just stay leaning one way or the other. It's just kind of this back and forth.
The most important thing is understanding your priorities. If you know what your priorities are, then you can get that balance in that really, really good.
Laura Dugger: I love that visual. I think that's much more realistic than a perfect balance, which is not achievable. [00:16:58] I like that word "to know your priorities". So kind of putting you on the spot, do you have some of your top priorities that you could share with us to make us start thinking of our own?
Trudy Cathy White: Yeah. You know, you can turn these as parties or even as values. I like to ask people this question. I say, "What matters to you most?" You know, sometimes if you ask yourself that, what matters to me the most? And I would say that they're really...
My husband and I have kind of over the years focused on five core values or five priorities in our life. One is our faith. It becomes the filter for all of our decision-making. The second is our family. We value family. We value time with our family. So we make that a priority.
Next I would say is integrity. That we are people of our word, that people can count on us when we say we're going to do things. The next two, the last two would be generosity. That we're generous with what we have. And last would be gratitude, that we are people who are grateful for things. [00:17:58]
So faith, family, integrity, gratitude, and generosity are the five. To me, I just try to make sure that I'm balancing those from time to time. Those are core to what's important to me. Everything else comes out of those five things.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And just to witness you and your greater family as leaders at Chick-fil-A, I just want to affirm, Trudy, you're living those out so well. I think we could have guessed those without even hearing it from you. So that's incredible that you're doing what you set out or intended to do.
Trudy Cathy White: I appreciate that.
Laura Dugger: When you and your husband came up with those five, what did that look like? Was that early on in marriage?
Trudy Cathy White: You know, we weren't challenged as young couples to really identify them and pin them. It really came through several years that we began to look back on experiences that we had and how we invest in our time and what was important to us. [00:18:59]
Honestly, Laura, when our children became young adults, they're married, we got together with them as newlyweds, well, somewhat newlyweds, and we gathered them together and we challenged them with this idea. Start now, early in your marriage, and define as a couple for yourselves what are going to be your values, what are going to be the things you're really going to focus and be intentional about.
They went way beyond what we had thought about. They not only worked hard at getting those and understanding what those would be, but then they, each one of them in their own unique way, either had a plaque printed or words put somewhere.
But you can walk in any one of their homes and their values are posted on their wall somewhere. And they have put those up because they want their children to understand them and know what they are. It's a really visual reminder to them, This is what we're declaring as a family is important to us. So it's a great accountability that's right there in front of them. [00:19:59]
So our children, as a gift to us in just recent years, they gave us those five words, and I said, and they gave them to us, and we've got them hanging in our kitchen. So they're a reminder to us as well as anybody else that comes in. They're great conversation pieces.
People come in our home and say, "Oh, tell me about those five words," you know? And so we said, well, these are the things that we've declared that are important to us. And we try to make sure that we are focusing well on these things.
Laura Dugger: I love that. I also find it just such a comfort to hear about your relationship with your adult children. So for those of us who are a little bit further behind, I would love for you just to encourage us, especially those who are working, whether that's part-time or they have this little side hustle or full-time job. What would your adult children say now as they look back? Were they ever resentful that you worked, or what does that look like for your family?
Trudy Cathy White: I think what I learned when I was growing up I've tried to implement with my children. [00:21:00] And this is what that looked like. When I was young, my mother and dad always tried to include us in things from time to time.
Of course, my dad had a restaurant, and when we were little, we could go and hang out at the restaurant. But a lot of times, my dad would go and take some food to a family, and he would take us along with him. So as much as they were able to, we were included in some things that happened that allowed us to see them almost on the job interacting with other people. I learned so much from my parents that way.
So with our own children, of course, being missionaries, a big part of their life was growing up in another country, and so much of what we did, we just took the children with us. Once we got through at language school, they were a part of it. But I think you even can bring your work life into your home with your children.
Now, my dad did this just regularly. He would come home, and some days were really hard days, and maybe our tendency as parents is to not share that with children. But I remember my dad would share almost to the point he would be crying sometimes. [00:22:00] He would be so discouraged about something that had happened. Maybe an employee stole from them, or dishonesty would happen and my dad really trusted someone about something.
My dad would share his challenges, my mother would take us to Scripture and read Scripture to us, and then we would pray together as a family for my dad, who was having a bad day. So as I grew up, I realized when I became an adult, I thought, Mm, I have a few bad days every once in a while. Then I realized, well, that's not unusual. I remember my parents had bad days.
So we've tried to do that with our own children, that when we have tough times, we try to share it with them and help them to understand, Hey, I know you have bad days, but I want you to know mom and dad have bad days sometimes too. You don't have to give them all the details, but you certainly can bring them into that so that they can see how you work through the challenges.
So I don't think my children would ever say that they're resentful for the time we spent investing in other people, because we've tried to be good about investing in them as well. [00:23:02]
Laura Dugger: That is really well said. I'd also love to hear, what is the one way that Jeannette Cathy parented you that had the most impact?
Trudy Cathy White: This is such a hard question when you think of one thing. But I think I would define my mom as my number one encourager. She just believed in me and always encouraged me. And sometimes I think, did she really believe that much? I'm sure I discouraged her and I'm sure that I disappointed her from time to time but somehow she was able to always bring it back to let me know, "Trudy, you know, I do believe in you. You're going to be able to do this and you're going to do it well."
And I would have maybe some really off-the-wall ideas or thoughts or dreams, and she always seemed to affirm those. I'm not even sure she totally agreed with it, but she just tried to affirm me in thinking forward and believing in myself before I even often believed in myself. [00:24:01]
Now, I was 19 years old when I became a Chick-fil-A operator, which I've raised children. And when they were 19, I'm not sure I would entrust a restaurant to them at that time. But my parents did. They said, "If you really think you want to do this, then, okay, we'll let you do it."
I was 19 years old. I had just finished my freshman year in college. I moved out of the dorm, got an apartment right near a shopping mall, which is where the Chick-fil-A store was going to open, and I was a Chick-fil-A operator for a year. My parents wanted me to go back to college and finish school. But it was because my parents kind of believed in me that motivated me to try something that I had never done before.
So even as an older adult, I remember having the opportunity to become a director for Winshape Camps, which is a camping program that we offer through our family foundation. And for 13 years, I was the director for camps. And I had never been a camp director before.
But I remember specifically my mother saying, "Well, why wouldn't you do this? You were a camper when you were a little girl, and you know how much camp meant to you. You could be a great camp director." [00:25:05]
So my mother believed in me. And I think parents need to do that with their children. Just believe in them and encourage them as much as you possibly can.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's so good. Just personally, I cannot hear that enough. Just that reminder to be encouraging. Going back a little bit in your story and tying this in, it was before the whole coronavirus that a big group from Chick-fil-A was together earlier this year. My husband and I had the pleasure of sitting at your table, and I remember a story from that year as a Chick-fil-A owner. So is there any personal story that you would like to share of what happened that year?
Trudy Cathy White: Well, probably the most common one that I would tell is the fact that a gentleman came in and applied for a job to work there in the store as a team member and I decided I would hire him, not because I knew anything about him, but because he was good looking. [00:26:03]
And so I hired him to come and work with me, and then I realized that the more he worked around the store, the more attracted I was to him. I found out he was a college student in the local area there. And next thing I knew, I got really nervous because I was afraid that he was going to be meeting a lot of girls on campus and be able to go out with them.
Then I realized that I actually was his boss. I was making out his hours. I was determining when he would be at work in the store and I decided he didn't have to be free on Friday nights or Saturday nights to go out with other girls.
Actually, the strategy worked because he fell in love with me as well and we've been married now for 40, almost 44 years. So the Lord blessed that. That was the biggest takeaway from my one year as a Chick-fil-A operator is I got my lifelong partner.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I absolutely love that story. Now as we fast forward and then think of you two together parenting, what did you apply to your own parenting that you had learned from your mom? [00:27:03]
Trudy Cathy White: I would say that four-letter word, pray. Pray, pray, pray for your children. You know, we often find that we're expecting, you know, we begin to pray for them. Then when they come into this world, we pray for them. As they are toddlers and they are in preschool, we pray for the… and it's endless. You just have to pray, pray, pray for your children. I learned that from my mom. She was quite the prayer warrior in our family.
Another thing I think is... this is a strange thing, but I read this years ago. Someone said, you know, one of the things you ought to pray for your children, pray they get caught when they do wrong. I know that sounds a little weird kind of to pray that way. But as our children do grow up, they are always under our wings and in our care where we see them. They're going to school. They're meeting friends. They're out doing things and they're making choices on their own when they come preteens and teenage.
And to pray that they will get caught when they do things wrong, you know, that's what you want, because you don't want them to develop bad habits in their life. [00:28:03] And so they can get caught early on in life if they do things wrong, that's really a good thing.
I think just my parents reminded us often we weren't perfect children. You won't have two perfect children. They're just not perfect. And you have to realize that they're going to be ups and downs in the parenting seasons of life.
We have our own share of those as well, stories of our children growing up and decisions maybe that they made that we would not have wanted them to make. There have been consequences to that. But they have always stayed connected to us as their parents. And we just appreciate that so very much.
So don't expect your children to be perfect. You probably already found that out if you're listening today. But recognize the fact that you can pray for them daily and want them to follow the Lord. Because at the end of the day, that's really what you want. You want them to be obedient to God and to be a blessing to other people.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is for sure. That we'll have no greater joy than to hear that our children are walking with the Lord and walking in truth. [00:29:03]
Some of you have asked how to find specific books or resources we've mentioned in one of our previous episodes. That's why I'm excited to let you know about our Resources tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can click on our tab called "Resources". There you will find all of the resources mentioned from every episode. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you're actually supporting our work at The Savvy Sauce.
We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode. So you can access websites, scripture, and the recommended resources when you click on any episode after you visit thesavvysauce.com. We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned.
Will you share the story of how your mom played an inadvertent role in actually creating the chicken sandwich that is now the famous chicken sandwich served at Chick-fil-A?
Trudy Cathy White: Sure. You know, our family has given my mother the title Chief Supporting Officer. [00:30:06] We kind of feel like that was her role all these years with my dad's life and in growing the family business. Everybody needs somebody on their side supporting them. And that's what my mother was for my dad.
My dad said all he did was take a piece of chicken and put it between the buttered bun. But my mother, now she did a lot of things. He would just brag on her all the time. She was just amazing, the support that she would give to him.
But mother and dad met when they were eight years old. They lived just down the street from each other. But as my dad would say, they didn't get married then. In fact, it was later in life that they got married.
My dad was 25 years old and single when he opened his first restaurant. Three years later, he got married to my mom and mother immediately started supporting him by being a waitress in the restaurant. I've got some stories in my book, A Quiet Street, that talk about the impact that my mom had on employees that my dad had early on in that restaurant. So they'll need to get the book to read about that. [00:31:08]
But once children came along, my mother was very content in taking on that role of caring for us while my dad worked such long, long hours. But I love this saying that says that everything that is seen is the result of the unseen. So when people go to Chick-fil-A and eat it, and when you read stories and you hear about my dad's life, you need to know that those are the things that are seen. But the unseen is super, super powerful. And that is who my mom was.
I love the fact that she offered relentless support to my dad through the years, praying for him, caring for him, encouraging him. Any one of us in our family would say today, Chick-fil-A would not be what it is today had it not been for the support of my mom.
Laura Dugger: And she was just wonderful at being that supportive role, which is so necessary, like you said. We won't even get to scratch the surface on all the stories in the book, some that definitely had me tearing up and some that had me laughing out loud. [00:32:13] So we won't get to all of those. We'll have to read it.
But just one thing I found so ironic is that when your mom, like you said, she was an amazing vocalist. So at a young age, when she would be asked to sing at different churches, they only could afford to pay in chickens, which then the chickens went back to your dad's house because... you have to read the story to get all the details. But that's where your dad learned how to cook chicken right alongside his mom. Isn't that right?
Trudy Cathy White: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Because my mother, because she's a single mom, she didn't get to go all very many places. But my dad's family was right down the road. My dad had a lot of brothers and sisters and his older sister, she got married to a minister and they would go to churches and they would take my mother along to sing at the churches. That's right. And they got chickens as the kind of payment for them being there. And those chickens made it right back to the home, to my dad's home, just as you shared the story. [00:33:17]
So I do share that in my book. It's a very intriguing story, almost unbelievable, the connections there. You feel like the Lord was in the middle of all this way from the beginning.
Laura Dugger: Oh, he certainly was. And I just love how even well before the age of 10, he was using your mom's gifts with your dad's gifts and putting it together. And Chick-fil-A has just blessed countless amount of people.
But your mom also had this wonderful ministry with Sunday school girls. And I would love for you to elaborate on the three Ms your mom taught her Sunday school girls.
Trudy Cathy White: Yes. Mother realized that when you're working with teenagers, one of the biggest things they complain about sometimes is the fact that they never get to make any decisions for themselves. It seems like their parents are always telling them what to do, what not to do and making decisions for them.
So my mother wanted these young girls to realize that there are three decisions that are the most important decisions you're going to make and you get to make them. [00:34:18] Your parents will not be making these decisions for you. And they all start with the letter M.
The first one is that, girls, you're going to get to choose who your master is going to be in life, who is really going to be in control of your life. You get to choose your master.
The second would be your mate. That, you know, you're going to grow up and you're going to get to choose who you're going to marry for the rest of your life. So you get to choose your mate.
And the third would be your mission. You know, what do you want to do in life? What will be your career? What will your mission look like?
And you get to choose all of those, your master, your mate, and your mission.
And mother would remind them and said, "You know, these are really, really big, big decisions. So don't worry that your mom and dad are making all the little decisions for you, but get yourself ready because one day you're going to have to make these decisions for yourself. And you don't want to make the wrong decisions. You want to make the right decision when it comes to that."
So she invested in them to know God's word, to study it. And she spent a lot of time with them, just helping them navigate their teenage years. [00:35:20]
I write about this in my book. And actually, when I was initially writing the book, I was thinking, you know, "I know a lot of stories about my mother, but there are a lot of other people that have stories probably that I've never heard before." One of the 12 people that we interviewed for this particular book happened to be one of the girls who was in my mom's Sunday school class, who's now grown and has her own children. And she gladly shared the stories about her time of sitting at church studying the Bible with my mom. It's a wonderful chapter in the book.
Laura Dugger: It definitely is. I just can't recommend the book high enough. We will be doing a giveaway as well on social media. I just hope that you all check it out.
But I find examples of generosity, not only to be inspiring, but also to be contagious. And the couple who comes to mind when I think of generosity is Truett and Jeannette Cathy. So how did you personally witness your parents' generosity? [00:36:23]
Trudy Cathy White: I think my earliest memory of my mother and dad and knowing that they were generous with what God had given us was when we would load up in the car and head to church. My mother would be in the front seat on the passenger side, of course, and she would pull out her checkbook. And that was when she wrote their tithe check that was going to go to the church.
They were faithful every week to give their tithe to the church. Mother was adamant about that. So I saw it first of all, just in how they managed their finances, which is really important for all of us to understand that we are to be stewards of the things that God has given us.
My parents taught us that God owns it all and that we simply need to steward it or manage it well for the Lord. So I love to remind people, you know, you need to manage what's in your hand, but you need to give away as much as you can.
So when we think about this idea of generosity and how it was modeled for me through my parents, I realized that they were generous, not just with their finances, but there are some other things that we all have that we have to learn how to be generous with. [00:37:30]
One is our time. We all have 24 hours in a day, but we get to choose how we're going to spend our time. So being generous with your time, giving it to other people is very important. I learned that from my parents.
The Bible talks a lot about the fact that, you know, we've been given talents to use of skills and abilities that we have. And are we stewarding those well being generous with our talents? If you do something really well, are you using it and are you doing it to be able to using it to help others? And then of course, our treasure, the finances, the resources that we have.
I think the last thing that I like to add that I've noticed in my parents that I've tried to live out before my children as well, is we all have the opportunity for influence and we have to be generous with our influence. We all can influence people around us and we need to just be aware that we can do it and be generous about it.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I appreciate that generosity so much. Then even as it's one of your five core values, what are some other ways that you and your husband have carried this forward with your family to be generous with your time, talents, treasures? [00:38:40]
Trudy Cathy White: I think some of the ways that we've been able to do that is simply by looking out for the needs of other people around us. My parents told me this when I was a teenager. I think one of the first times I remember hearing it was they told me this. They said, "Trudy, if you'll help other people get what they want in life, you'll eventually get what you want out of life."
What I have grown to understand that to mean is that life is not about me. Everything doesn't revolve around me. In fact, the more I spend time worrying and thinking about myself, the worse off I am. But if I can put my focus on other people around me and what are their needs and how can I celebrate them well, then there's something that's very rewarding and gratifying in that.
In fact, Jesus said, it's better to give than to receive. So if we can give by identifying the needs of other people and see how we can help them, it just kind of gets our mind off of maybe some of the problems and challenges that we have. [00:39:44] So I would say if you're having a bad day today, go find somebody you can help and do something for them. It's a great way to be generous. It's a great way to put your focus on somebody else, and you'll find that you'll get a lot out of life when you do that.
Laura Dugger: I just say amen to all of that. Just another fun question as we think back about your parents. How do you think they managed to stay like newlyweds forever?
Trudy Cathy White: Such a great question. I think, number one, they were just committed to each other. They weren't a perfect couple. They had issues. They had problems they had to work through. They had disagreements. They didn't always see eye to eye on things. And so that's to be expected.
But they were very committed to their marriage. They were committed to work through any challenges that they faced. I think mother decided early on she couldn't change dad, and dad wasn't going to try to change her. They just kind of tried to accept each other the way they were. And that's very important for us to do.
I think the biggest thing that I saw is just this idea of being able to manage expectations well. [00:40:46] In fact, I'll tell you this little story. I remember picking my mother up, taking her to the doctor. She was in her 70s, and she got in the car, and you could tell she had been doing some really serious thinking. And she said to me, "Trudy, I've decided something significant today."
And I said, "What's that, mom?" She said, "I've decided to have no more expectations for your dad." I said, "Well, tell me about that." She said, "Well, you know, I've had all these expectations." I think my mother felt that probably my dad would retire when he got to be 65. And, of course, there's no way he was going to stop work. He loved what he did. He never retired. He worked right up until the Lord took him home practically. A
I think my mother just kind of felt like at some point in time, maybe things are going to change and be a little different. He won't be as busy. He'll have more time around the house. But that never happened. And so she just decided, you know, I'm not going to have any more expectations.
After she had passed away, I found where on an index card she had written down those very words. It said, "Have no expectations. None whatsoever." [00:41:49] And she underlined the "whatsoever" part. So none whatsoever. And I thought, what an amazing lady she was. She decided to have no more expectations on her husband.
So I have expectations for John, but I've tried to manage those really, really well. I just appreciate the commitment and the way they model their marriage before us.
Laura Dugger: I also loved watching their marriage and just their little sense of humor with each other and the tenderness. But there's one more quote I want to highlight about your mom. And it's from page 61 where you write, "and when she wasn't pouring scripture into herself, she was pouring it out to others." And I just thought, wow, I want to be like that. Just thinking of her as your model growing up, what are three things that you want to emulate from your mother's life?
Trudy Cathy White: One of the things I would say is that I want to be open to learn new things the way she was. [00:42:51] She never thought she was too old to memorize scripture. She never thought she was too old to learn new things, even technology. She was just a lifelong learner. So that would be one.
I think the second thing I would want to emulate from my mother's life is that I would be very faithful with the things that God has given me and grateful for them. Faithful in my marriage. Faithful as a mother and grandmother to children and grandchildren. Faithful as a friend. And faithful with my opportunity of influence. Just be faithful with whatever God's given me because I saw my mother do that and do it so well.
I think the third one would be to have the wisdom that my mom had would be something I would desire. And the wisdom that I saw in my mother was that she never gave up, but she knew when to quit, which is kind of interesting. [00:43:51]
She always had this philosophy, never give up. She'd always keep trying. But then she also said, "But you need to know when to quit." There were times in my mother's life that she had the wisdom to know that she needed to set something aside so that she could focus more attention on something else." And to have that kind of discernment and wisdom, I think those are the three things I would want to emulate in my mom's life.
Laura Dugger: Those are incredible. I just love this conversation and your resource just because personally, my mom is so precious to me and I think she's the best mom in the world. So reading your book was just kind of a warm experience to reminisce on some of the things that my mom and I have experienced together or conversations we're still having.
So if listeners do want to find this book, where would you direct them?
Trudy Cathy White: You can go to any of your local bookstores. You certainly can go to my website, TrudyCathyWhite.com. It'll be posted there. [00:44:52] And then there is a website, QuietStrengthBook.com, where you can list all the different places. It's obviously very easy to order on Amazon as well. So I'm grateful for all the places that are carrying the book and making it accessible to other people.
Laura Dugger: We didn't even mention this is not your first book. So that will be great to link to your website so listeners can learn more about you and can see other resources that you've written.
Trudy Cathy White: That's correct.
Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, Trudy, what is your savvy sauce?
Trudy Cathy White: This is the hardest question I'm telling you. I think if I had to leave a word of encouragement, my savvy sauce would be, write somebody and thank them today. I love to write handwritten notes. I just think it's something that's maybe a lost art that very few people do. I think they're treasured. But to just sit down and write somebody a note. I think it's a huge thing. [00:45:55] I would say clearly eat more chicken, right?
Laura Dugger: Yes to that. That's a perfect place to end for today. Trudy, just thank you again for all of those values that you've lived out even during this time together with your integrity and generosity of time and your gratitude. It just exudes from you. So I really enjoyed hosting you as my guest today.
Trudy Cathy White: Thank you, Laura, for having me. I'm just so honored. I appreciate it very much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:46:58] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:48:00] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:49:02]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 14, 2020
Monday Sep 14, 2020
111. Building Love Together in Blended Families with Ron Deal
**Transcription Below**
1 Corinthians 13:8a (NIV) "Love never fails."
Ron Deal is President of Smart Stepfamilies™ and Director of FamilyLife Blended® for FamilyLife®. He is a family ministry consultant and conducts marriage and family seminars around the country; he specializes in marriage education and stepfamily enrichment.
Ron Deal’s Website for Blended Families
Connect with Ron Deal on Social Media @familylifeblended
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Building Love Together in Blended Families by Dr. Gary Chapman and Ron L Deal
The Smart Stepfamily Marriage by Ron Deal, David H. Olson, and Evelyn Thompson (Foreword)
The Smart Stepfamily Guide to Financial Planning by Ron Deal, Greg S. Pettys, and David. O. Edwards
The Smart Stepmom by Ron Deal and Laura Petherbridge (Contributor)
Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:
Episode 85: 5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Leman Property Management Company and Fae & Monroe
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Fae & Monroe makes hand-stamped jewelry and accessories, and it's located right here in central Illinois. They provide delicate, personal, everyday necklaces, as well as keychains and accessories. Check them out at FayAndMonroe.com.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,600 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at MidwestShelters.com or visit them on Facebook.
Although this is an episode designed to specifically address unique challenges that arise for anyone marrying again after divorce or death of a spouse, I still believe we can all learn from this wisdom of strengthening relationships.
Ron Deal is our guest, and he is a relationship expert. He's a marriage and family therapist, best-selling author, podcaster, and popular conference speaker. [00:01:22] He's also the president of Smart Stepfamilies.
Today we're going to cover concepts from a recent book of his, which he wrote with Dr. Gary Chapman, one of our previous guests from Episode 85. This book is titled Building Love Together in Blended Families, and I can't wait for all of us to listen in on his practical instruction for ways that we can strengthen our marital relationship and parenting.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ron.
Ron Deal: Well, thank you. It's an honor to be with you.
Laura Dugger: Will you just get us started by telling us a bit about yourself and how you originally developed a passion for this line of work?
Ron Deal: Yeah. I'm a Midwestern kid born and raised in Des Moines, Iowa. I met my now-wife in seventh grade. I can still see her standing at the end of the hallway at her locker. We eventually got to know each other and fell in love by the time we were ending our senior year and went off to college, got married, decided we wanted to go into ministry. [00:02:29]
My first job I was a youth minister working with kids. And boy, did I figure out fast, Laura, that I didn't know enough about the family or the family system to really be as helpful to them as I wanted to be.
So like you, I went back to graduate school and I got a degree in Marriage and Family Therapy. At that point, I really wanted to help kids, but I also wanted to help their families. I knew the family system is where children grew up. The climate had everything to do with their well-being.
So I went into family ministry doing some counseling, but spending a lot of my time on prevention, enrichment, doing marriage enrichment, parent training, working with single-parent families, and decided we needed to work with blended families because as a clinician, I knew I'd had quite a bit of experience working with stepfamilies. But in ministry, not many people were paying any attention to that.
So this is back in the early 1990s when I started doing what's now stepfamily ministry, my full-time job. [00:03:29] And little did I know hardly anybody was trying to do something to help blended families within a Christian community or Christian context. So I found myself kind of trying to figure it out and talking to anybody I could find that was interested in the subject. Long story short, it eventually became my life.
We've now written eight books and have a ninth on the way and half a dozen resources. I work with a large international ministry called FamilyLife. We're in over 100 countries around the world, but we have a huge footprint here in the United States. Thousands of people come to our marriage conference every year.
And now we started what we call FamilyLife Blended, which is my Smart Stepfamily material plus the FamilyLife material. So we do events and online training and resources, video curriculum, books, small group studies, all kinds of things for stepfamilies around the world at this point. [00:04:30]
Laura Dugger: Well, it's really incredible to get to witness your work, Ron. This is something I haven't told you yet, that I've actually followed your work for years. My mom is the one I credit with introducing me to podcasts. But even before that, it was radio programs. And so this may have been in the 90s or early 2000s. It was a while back that I remember hearing you first speak and really be the leader of a Christian view of grace with stepfamilies. So thank you for your work.
Ron Deal: Well, I appreciate that very much.
Laura Dugger: And now just from a broader context, what do you see as one of the most overlooked and underestimated needs of any relationship?
Ron Deal: For a long time, the Christian community and marriage educators, even people from a non-faith perspective, inadvertently gave the message that it's my job to make my wife happy. Now, I firmly believe that it's my job to die to myself, to love my wife well, and care for her in whatever ways that I can. [00:05:37]
But sometimes the way we would teach it, we kind of suggested to people that if your wife's not happy, then it's your fault. Or if your husband's not happy, then it's your fault as the wife. All of a sudden, you know, it's kind of like we've relieved people of their own responsibility for their own personhood and well-being, their identity, their walk with God as a factor in who they are in their marriage and their family and their parenting.
And I think that's making a comeback, and it should make a comeback, that there's a balance to be found here. That each of us is accountable and responsible for who we are, and we bring our best selves to our marriage.
And striving to be my best self is a part of growing up. It's a part of growing up in Christ, growing up as a person, becoming mature. That's something we're called to do and invited to do, I think, in our walk with God. So bridging that into the marriage and family space is something that I think has been overlooked for some time. [00:06:41]
Laura Dugger: That's such an important point about that personal responsibility piece, and just resisting more of that victim mentality, which really doesn't serve anyone. But now as we consider blended families specifically, how does your relationship with God and your learning from the Bible, how does all of that influence your beliefs about coming alongside stepfamilies?
Ron Deal: There's an interesting thing that happens. In our effort to follow God well and honor Him, we have, I think rightfully so within the Christian community, placed a big emphasis on remaining faithful in our marriages. We talk about covenant relationships and responsibilities and decisions that we make to be committed to a spouse, and we need to honor that. And divorce is not a part of keeping promises, right? So we want to discourage the breaking of promises and encourage the keeping of promises, and rightfully so. [00:07:43]
I think, unfortunately, in our effort to do that, we've kind of talked down to people who did experience divorce. We use words like broken family as if to imply that somehow people living in an intact family are not broken. Well, that's not true. We're all broken. We're all in need of redemption.
And so we inadvertently marginalize people who have been through hardship and difficulty, whether they made a choice that led to the divorce or they didn't. Whatever the story is, God still loves and forgives and redeems and blesses people who have had a breakup of a marriage.
People in blended families then are remarried, and there's this other theological concept about remarriage. In our effort to try to handle the Scriptures well, sometimes I think we have, again, inadvertently taught a meta-message that suggested that somehow divorce is bad, remarriage is also bad. If you're divorced and remarried, you don't belong at church. [00:08:45] And that is so not right. That is so not the intent or the heart behind the Scriptures.
And so we have to deal with that now. We have to talk about blended family living in theological ways and also in practical ways to invite church leaders to say, yeah, you know what? The church is all about redemption. It's a hospital. It's not a place for healthy people. It's a place where people go when they need help. That's who we are. That's what we do. We do that day in and day out. Why is this any different? It's really not.
I guess I would say early on when I started doing this, I felt like I had to fight those theological battles and not so much anymore. Thankfully, that's gotten a lot easier. The conversation is more about practically how do we help and encourage people in blended families.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Will you take us back? Do you think you can pinpoint any turning points or was there any specific Scripture that helped people understand theologically what is now what you're saying a little bit more understood? [00:09:46]
Ron Deal: Yeah, I think it's just simply stepping back from the Scriptures and saying, yes, we want to encourage people to honor their promises and their commitments. But then let's also notice that the whole of Scripture is a narrative about God pursuing us in our imperfections and providing redemption and grace ultimately through Jesus Christ.
If you look at that and you go, Okay, let's just look at the families of the Bible. How messed up were they? Abraham and his family. Abraham and Sarah promised a child. The whole world is going to be blessed through their child. Only she's not getting pregnant. So she has this brilliant idea.
Now, Laura, I just got to ask you, how many times have you suggested to women, look, if you can't get pregnant, just give your husband a maidservant. Let her become wife number two. It'll all work out fine. That's not advice that we get. But that's how the family of promise started. Jesus is a descendant of that.
Then it gets worse, right? [00:10:47] The story of Joseph and his brother selling him into slavery is not about simple sibling jealousy. It's a narrative of a favored child who was born by the favored wife to a man who had three other wives and a whole lot of children, half-brothers, half-sisters, stepchildren to stepmothers, and there's only one favored child in the bunch.
It's a story of stepfamily dysfunction and jealousy. This is not a new narrative. God has always worked with imperfect people to bring about his perfect causes and purposes. And that's what He does, is restore and redeem.
Our faithfulness doesn't fix every decision we've ever made in our past, but it ascribes righteousness to us in spite of that past. And by the way, Jesus had a stepdad. I'm pretty sure that's true. Best story of the whole thing is there's this woman that Jesus meets in John chapter four, a woman at the well. She has a very sordid past. She's been married five times. [00:11:46] She's now living with a guy because she's given up on marriage and love in general. We don't know if she's divorced five times. We don't know if she was widowed five times.
But the story narrative implies there was a lot of shame going on within her. That's why she's isolated and alone from the community of people and at the well all by herself. She's probably been divorced at least once, if not multiple times.
And what does Jesus do? Well, he loves her. He talks to her like a person as she is. He actually uses her story of thirst and trying to find love as a way of helping her open her heart to the truthfulness of God's grace and mercy for her. In the end of the story, she drinks living water, she sees and understands that she's embraced by God.
This woman who was at the beginning of the story embarrassed about her past is now at the end of the story using her story to invite other people to come and meet Jesus. That's my story too. That's your story. That's everybody who's listening story. [00:12:48]
It doesn't matter whether you've been divorced or remarried or whatever that narrative is. God loves, forgives, invites, encourages, blesses. Says, Come walk with Me. Just drink some water and let's go. I think that message makes a lot of sense to people. And there's just so much hope in it. That's the narrative we tell in the ministry that I run.
Laura Dugger: That is such a powerful picture of what Scripture presents theologically for this topic. And I know you said you also focus a lot on the practical side. So even currently with what you're hearing from these blended families, what are some of the most helpful practical implications you recommended?
Ron Deal: Let's just start at a high level. And let me just say driving a stepfamily, if I could say it that way, is different than driving a biological first family. Quick illustration. If you know how to drive a car, which a lot of people do, and I said, all right, then you know how to drive a motorcycle. [00:13:52] You'd say, Oh, well, I don't know. I mean, I kind of know how to ride a bike, but I'm not sure I know how to ride a motorcycle. Isn't that different? How do you handle corners? How do you handle speed? How do you change lanes? How do you make sure defensive driving other cars can see you?
Yeah, there's a whole lot of things that are different and unique about navigating a motorcycle than driving a car. But they're both vehicles. They both have engines. They both need maintenance. They both have certain laws and things that go along with the boundaries and how you use them well, etc., etc..
Same thing's true. Blended families are families. They have relationships. They have guidelines and healthy and unhealthy. They're a vehicle, just like a first family is a vehicle. But you do drive the blended family differently.
There are dynamics that are different. There are defensive postures that you need to have. There are qualities and attributes that are unique, and there are struggles that are unique. [00:14:51] So we help people understand those struggles.
It's a little bit like if you have a special needs child. There's some unique things around that. If you have a child who's educationally challenged, there's some unique ways you need to try to learn to help that child learn so that they can manage adulthood.
It's not unlike many things in life. But when people go into the blended life experience thinking they're driving a car, well, they corner way too fast. And, boy, they're not watching out for other traffic like they need to be. They can get sideswiped or rear-ended or tip over pretty quickly.
Imagine a car with eight people in it. You can imagine that pretty easily. Imagine a motorcycle with eight people on it. Oh, wow, we just got complicated. How do we balance? How do we work together? Right. That's what we do is we help people understand driving this vehicle and what it takes to stay on the road and get to where you want to go. [00:15:50]
Laura Dugger: Well, and let's just take that a step further then and talk about a few things that are specific to blended families. Could you just explain the attachment triangles that are apparent?
Ron Deal: Yeah. So this is a key concept, and it's a little hard to explain. But let me just give you a typical scenario. One of the things that's very true about driving this vehicle called the blended family is that parenting and marriage stuff is deeply intertwined. Now, that's also true in first families where a couple is raising their biological children. But in blended families, this can get tripped up all too easily, and it can have devastating impact.
So, for example, imagine a conversation where a stepmother, for example, comes to her husband and says, Hey, Johnny's not getting out of bed in the morning. It's making everybody late. Could you help me get him going? And the dad says, "Well, I don't know. That's not a big deal. I think he's doing fine. Let's not worry about it." And the stepmother is feeling, "Oh, I'm unheard. I'm powerless. And you just defended your son over me. [00:16:52] It feels like you've chosen him over me. That feels like I'm unimportant to you."
So what started as a parenting question quickly became some sort of a statement about the importance of marriage. The stepmom in this scenario is kind of an outsider to the parenting process between her husband and his son. Like when she comes on the scene in the beginning, she's very much outside that. Her husband and son have a history and routines and rituals and ways of doing things, and they understand each other.
And his parenting of the past as a single dad and even before he was a widow or his first divorce, all of that plays into what the child expects. But now the stepmother, an outsider to all of that, is coming in saying, "Hey, help me get him out of bed." So she is stuck as an outsider is the way we would say that.
She comes in as an outsider, and she tried to do something to be a part of the parenting team, only her husband said no. [00:17:51] And now she's really an outsider. So powerless and helpless and frustrated. She has to deal with the fallout of him not being ready to go in the morning, all of that.
So it's parenting and marriage all at the same time. I like to say in blended families, there's a dangerous intersection where you're riding this vehicle, this motorcycle, and at the intersection of Parenting Street and Marriage Avenue, there's a whole lot of collisions.
And you have to navigate it really carefully because ultimately it pulls on the couple's relationship. It ultimately makes them feel like they are not together, they are not one, that they are different and separate. And when that happens, it doesn't matter how motivated anybody else might be, the family falls apart. There is a reason the divorce rate is higher in blended families than it is in first families. And it's this intersection.
But here's another triangle that is a key one. And this one has sort of indirect connection with the children. [00:18:52] It can be about a former spouse. Imagine a former spouse, an ex-husband, who picks up the phone and calls his ex-wife, who is now married to a new guy. This former husband is just really difficult to get along with. He's not a great parent. He's unreliable and inconsistent. And he's just belligerent and bitter and angry over the divorce and whatever.
And so he can create all kinds of havoc in his former wife's new marriage, in their parenting, in the new stepdad who's going, Look, he may be a wonderful stepdad, a very high-character person. But if the biological dad is telling the kids, "I'm your dad, he's not, don't listen to him, listen to me," well, then stepdad is just going to have a really rough go. And it has nothing to do with him. It has very little to do with his wife or their marriage. It has everything to do with somebody who does not live in their home.
So here's the big reality. Blended families are tall and wide, I like to say. In this new book that I wrote with Gary Chapman, Building Love Together in Blended Families, we say they're tall and wide. [00:19:55] Tall because they're multigenerational, there's lots of generations that are being affected by the step relationships, and they're wide in the sense that there's often at least two homes, if not three or four homes. And it's just difficult. It is so very difficult to navigate all of those pieces.
In other words, here's another way of saying it. To this woman who marries a great guy, what they both have to accept is that her ex-husband is still a part of their marriage. He is still a part of their family. His parenting matters. Who he is as a person matters. His finances matter. His schedule matters. His morality matters. He is a part of your family.
That's a hard reality for a lot of people. They think, "Well, I divorced him. That's over with." If you share children, it's never over with. Learning how to navigate that terrain, deal with former spouses in light of what happens in your home is just one of those complex pieces that helps you learn how to ride and drive this motorcycle. [00:20:59]
Laura Dugger: Ron, if I'm hearing correctly, too, it does sound like one of the most common issues with a new blended family would be if they are also parents. You would say that's where a lot of the friction comes. Is that right?
Ron Deal: I would say the presence of children from any previous relationship is just a multiplier of complexity. So this leaves a co-parenting issue. You and your former spouse, how do you raising those children together? It's a parent, step-parent in your home, the new marriage matter.
And then there's children dealing with losses and sadness from the past and loyalty issues. We might call that a loyalty conflict or a love conflict. I love my dad, I love my stepdad, I have a problem. I don't know how to make space for both of those people at the same time in my heart.
That is a very common kid issue. It's something they have to work through. And only when they find peace with that can they openly give themselves into a loving relationship with their step-parent. [00:22:02] 99% of the time, they will side with a biological parent, even if that bio-parent is not a nice person. The step-parent gets the lesser end of that deal just because of their loyalty or love for their biological parent. So, again, lots of things dealing with children, adults, dynamics, parenting, and marriage.
Laura Dugger: I just appreciate your work because it is so relevant today. If we look at the numbers, just in American culture, I believe it's nearly half the couples who have a step-parent or step-child connected to their relationship.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: With over 1,600 apartment units available and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin.
In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. [00:23:07] Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.
In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington.
And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments. Stop by their website at MidwestShelters.com.
Sponsor: Fae & Monroe makes hand-stamped jewelry and accessories, and they're located right here in central Illinois. They provide delicate, personal, everyday necklaces with personalized stamping. For example, you could put your wedding date on a necklace or your children's initials on small charms. They also offer stamped keychains and accessories that can be used on backpacks, purses, or wallets. [00:24:07]
I've purchased both necklaces and keychains from Fae & Monroe, and I'm always satisfied with the end product. Their products make excellent gifts for everyone from grandparents to young daughters to students.
Check them out at FayAndMonroe.com or on Facebook and Instagram @FayAndMonroe. And that's Fae with an E. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: What are a few blended family principles for loving well?
Ron Deal: So in this book, Building Love Together in Blended Families, one of the things I do is summarize all the other work. And this is hard to do. But like I said, I've written multiple books, like The Smart Stepfamily, which is a best-selling book. And we just summarize some of those principles in this new one and just said, for example, blended families are not born with a sense of familiness.
By the way, I like making up words. I hope that's okay with you. Familiness is different than coupleness. But blended families are not born with a sense of familiness. [00:25:09] Your journey nurtures it.
So when you get married and form a blended family, you bring definition to one relationship, your couple relationship, coupleness. You bring definition because you announce to the world, we're married now. There's legal implications for that. There's practical implications for that. There's sexual implications for that. There's expectations in terms of fidelity in this relationship.
And the whole world says, yay, happy, glad for you guys. You're married, husband and wife. That is clear. What is unclear is how you're going to be a family. Because children are saying, Okay, now I've got a step-parent and three step-siblings. What do I do with them? Where do I put them in my heart? How do I make space for that? I have time and energy for this person. How about for that person? I love my mom. I sort of like my stepdad. I really love my dad. That's the familiness stuff kids are working on.
The other familiness thing that's really key is parenting and step-parenting. How are we going to be a team? You and I parent differently. [00:26:09] Maybe both adults are bringing kids into the equation. We parent differently.
Maybe the children are adults. And, Laura, this is very important because this is a big assumption a lot of people make. Empty nest parents who get married later in life just assume because their children are adults that they're not going to have any problem with it. That is not true at all. Kids 35 years of age have the same adjustments as kids 15 years of age or 5 years of age.
They have to now redefine their whole family, their identity within the family, their relationship with their parent who got married. They have to figure all this out too. And now there's grandkids involved in the picture. All of that to say, familiness is a journey that generally takes anywhere from five to seven years to figure out.
Coupledness came on the day you got married in the sense that everybody around you and within your relationship, you knew who you were, husband and wife. Everybody else, it takes them five to seven years to figure it out. That is a deep surprise to a lot of people and they get caught off guard by that. [00:27:10]
And here's the way that looks in real life. The kids loved this future step-parent. They got along fine. They had some activities. Everything seemed to be rolling forward. The wedding comes and now somebody's like, "Hey, yeah, no, I don't want you telling me to pick up my socks. No. It was kind of fine when you were dating my mom, but now you're in my bedroom telling me to pick up my socks. You are not my dad." That's real life. And that relationship and defining, bringing definition to that relationship takes time.
So we help people pause. We help people be patient. We help them understand what to do in the meantime. How do you get to that definition? And that's part of what this book really does.
I think the real positive thing that Building Love Together in Blended Families does that my other materials don't is that it really talks about utilizing the five love languages, for example, to help bonding in a family, to help you bring definition to your familiness. [00:28:10] I think there's some very practical things in this book that help with that.
Laura Dugger: I would echo that. I think in your book it does lay out just something that you can grab onto so quickly and just a great resource where they can turn to that and get some ideas and see how it applies.
As we transition to thinking about the blended family couple, I think it's always helpful to hear stories or practical tips. So in a blended family, how can a couple grow in their marriage?
Ron Deal: Well, you know, one of the things you got to do is work hard to protect your marriage because of that intersection of Parenting Street and Marriage Avenue and there's a lot of collisions. You work really hard to honor one another. So it's simple things, but they have profound impact.
For example, a biological parent who was a single parent, perhaps for a few years before getting married again, they are so used to making all the decisions quickly, decisively. [00:29:14] The kids know what you're going to say before you say it. For you to pause and make space for the step-parent is helpful to say to your kids, "Hey, look, hold on. I'll get back to you on that. I'm going to go talk to my spouse."
And they say, "Well, why dad? You never had to ask anybody before. Why do you have to ask her?" "Well, she's my wife now. And that matters. Turns out that that's a big deal. You know, she's going to be my partner for the rest of our life and so I want to include her in this."
Now, you've just made a huge statement to your children. Marriage matters. I'm committed. It's redefining who I am in relation to you and we all have to make these adjustments. And it elevates the status of the step-parent into the parenting system. And it gives her some power she didn't have any other way. And the kids get the message they have to respect the stepmom because dad respects her. That's massive, Laura. That's huge.
Consider the alternative of somebody who doesn't include the step-parent, doesn't find a way to bring them into the parenting and the kids don't respect. [00:30:21] I work with a guy who told me, "Yeah, I had a great stepdad came into my life when I was about five. I called him dad pretty quickly." And I was like, "Hey, that sounds wonderful."
And then he gave me whiplash and he said, "But I never respected him." And I said, "Wow, why not? I mean, you liked him. You got along. You even called him dad." He goes, "Yeah, but mom told us after she got married kids, if anything ever goes wrong between you and my husband, don't worry about it. I'll protect you. We'll just leave."
And it was like, Okay, so mom doesn't respect him and you don't have to respect him. The message came through loud and clear. And even as a five-year-old, he understood, I don't have to respect this guy. So it put huge limitations on their relationship. That sort of stuff really matters.
We tell the story in the book. Pretty complex story. So I'll go into all the details, but it's a very practical one about a single mom who, during the single mom years, her love language is quality time and her kids' love language was quality time. [00:31:21]
So guess what they did every night before bed? They laid in bed and they had quality time. They talked about the day. As she reported to me and shared this, she said, "But it was really us surviving life together. It was really us getting through the hard transition of going through the divorce and the kids' angst over that. We loved on each other. We cared for each other. It worked for them. It was wonderful. It was a foxhole experience, surviving life."
Fast forward. She meets a wonderful guy. He's got a couple of kids of his own. They get married and, you know, her husband's biggest complaint pretty quickly is, "Oh my gosh, she spends an hour and a half in the bedtime ritual with her kids every night." You know, sometimes it was 30 minutes, but often it was an hour to an hour and a half. He said, "I'm sitting out there. My kids are in bed. I'm waiting for some couple time with my wife, feeling unimportant, feeling like I'm left out of this whole mix. But then she comes out and she's so tired. She goes straight to bed. We don't get any time. I'm resenting the children."
Like, okay, so you hear the ritual that was working before the marriage is now working against the marriage now that they're a family. [00:32:24] So what do they do? Well, first of all, they had to talk and listen and hear one another. Mom was defensive of her kids at first, but she finally said, "You know what? I can understand my husband. He's just looking for some time with me. He's not against them." He had to be patient and say, "Look, this ritual is important."
I helped him see her kids really, really need that time with their mother because they've gone through another change. They've lost mom to you and they've lost mom to your kids in some way. Not emotionally, not entirely, but they've lost some of her time. They've lost some of her energy to those people. So they need a little reassurance. Reassurance is a good thing for children.
However, mom, you got to put some limitations on this from a time standpoint. You need to make a statement to your children about the importance of your marriage as well. You got to balance these two things, love your kids and love your husband. It's not either or. It is "both and". So let's work on this.
So they ultimately came together, made some decisions. Mom agreed she needed to start putting time limits on the nighttime ritual. [00:33:26] Guess what that meant? A little angst in the children. Did they push back? Yes. Did they say, mom, did they whine and complain? You bet. So she had to say, I love you, BUT this is what's going to happen. Bedtime ritual is over. I'm walking out the door. I'm going to spend time with my husband.
Those subtle, but very significant changes create familiness. And without that, they're going to be stuck night after night, after night, feeling like they're not together as a couple.
Laura Dugger: And it sounds like it takes such discernment. I love how you say "both and" I think that's so apparent in scripture for so many things and just how you're applying it here because both are important. And yet if someone needs help with that discernment right now, I guess we can't give a blanket statement, but would you say the order of priorities typically needs to start with a couple?
Ron Deal: Yeah. I would say... and let me be delicate with this because I think sometimes people hear the wrong thing. [00:34:29] So let me talk around it. Yes, ultimately the marriage is a huge priority relationship. When scripture talks about leave father and mother and cleave to your spouse, it's saying shift your allegiance to your new spouse. That does not mean you abandon father and mother, neglect father and mother. When they get old, make them take care of themselves. Stop honoring them. Nope. There's another command in the Bible about honoring father and mother.
So clearly allegiance to your wife does not mean stopping to love and respect parents. It just means your primary allegiance is to your spouse.
The same thing happens if you happen to have children when you get married. You shift primary allegiance to your spouse, but that does not mean you stop caring for kids or neglect kids or abandon kids or stop pouring your time and energy into them, especially during their childhood years. You're going to continue to do all of that and make sure everybody knows till death do you part on this marriage. [00:35:29] Like there has to be that sense of ultimate allegiance.
Practically though you're still making sacrifices on the adult level on behalf of children, but there have to be moments in time where, you know, and your partner knows and your kids know this marriage is not going away. It is a deciding relationship within the family system.
The mistake is when people hear, Oh, just love your new spouse and forget about your kids. Nobody's saying that. There's no balance in that. Maintaining the "both and" is how you keep the balance.
Laura Dugger: Our team would love to know, has The Savvy Sauce benefited you in any way? Our hope is that your life is enriched just a little bit more after listening and applying lessons from each episode. If you have enjoyed this podcast, would you put your support into action by pledging $2 or even $5 a month to become a patron?
You will receive some awesome perks and your contribution will help us offset the production costs for The Savvy Sauce so we can still make the majority of our content free to the public. [00:36:37] We hope you consider partnering with us today. Just visit our website, TheSavvySauce.com, and click on our Patreon tab. Thank you for your participation.
Will you now share how your five Ps apply to step-parents?
Ron Deal: Yeah. I think what we've talked about so far is a helpful precursor to this conversation. So five Ps of step parenting.
- Number one, partner, right? So partner with your spouse. That is step-parents, partner with the biological parent because as we've kind of already talked about, the biological parent is the one who sets you up to be successful. They're the ones who communicate to the children, look, this is my husband. He's your stepdad now.
The biological parent does not demand that children love step-parents. Nobody can demand that. Well, we can demand that you be courteous and decent and kind and respect them like you would any other adult authority in your life. [00:37:36] Like a coach on the soccer field, like your teacher in math class, like the youth pastor who takes you on the youth retreat. And you respect that person's authority. You respect a step-parent's authority on day one in our family. Partnering is huge.
- Number two is pursue. So step parents pursue a relationship with the children.
- But you need to do it at number three, a pace at which the children can receive it. So those work together, pursue but at a pace that they can receive.
Here's a quick analogy. If I were to ask you, Laura, let's assume COVID is over, pandemic is gone and you have some new neighbors, a couple doors down and you can actually go and meet them. All right? And if I said to you, go make friends, you know, get to know them a little bit, well, what you would not do, I don't think, is walk down and bang on their door and yell at the top of your lungs, "I'm your new BFF. Open up. I'm hungry. I want to get some food out of your refrigerator."
That's not going to help make friends, right? They don't know you. They don't trust you. [00:38:36] They don't understand what you're about and what your motivation is. And so they are not opening that door.
Well, a lot of step-parents pursue at a pace like that. "Hey, I'm your new dad. My way or the highway. You need to act," right? That's going to do nothing to build a relationship, right? They've just slammed the door and double bolt locked it.
What you would do if you're going to make friends with the new neighbors, you'd probably knock on the door and be very polite and wait. And if they came to the door and talk through the door, "Hello, who is it?" you'd say, "Well, this is Laura and I'm your neighbor and I just want to invite you to."
You would find some common ground to begin a dialogue in the hopes that they crack the door open. In which case now you got one eyeball. You can see one eye through the crack and you can talk to the eye and hopefully find some more common ground over which they begin to slowly open the door of their heart to you.
You get the analogy. You got to pursue at a pace that they will receive. Someday, maybe, you'll be invited into the living room and maybe they'll offer you a drink of water. [00:39:40] That's the culmination of this pursuit. Step-parents get too eager, too fast, and get too anxious about developing this relationship. They push and they inadvertently get themselves pushed away.
- That brings me to the fourth P, patience. Patience is so very critical because sometimes you sit on the doorstep and knock and they just talk through the door and that's all they're going to give you. I'm thinking of adult children. Dad got married at the age of 70 and he married this new woman. She's nice but she's not my mom and I don't need her in my life. I'm an adult. I got my own life, career, children, stuff I got to be involved in. I don't have time to develop a relationship with Dad's new wife. Now notice that language. Not my stepmom, not my mom, dad's new wife.
That's a distant connection at best for the adult children. They're just not highly motivated to build that connection and they don't need to be. So you have to be patient. That's the bottom line. You can get mad at them, you can be frustrated, you can criticize them all you want, all they're going to do is keep the door shut. [00:40:47] Patience is really important.
- The next P is persistence. Persistence is that not giving up even if you feel discouraged or frustrated but just noticing this is a long-term journey and you're just going to chip away at it and you're going to stay with the process.
That's the five P's. By the way, we do have a bonus P. And that would be prayer. This whole process needs to be bathed in a whole lot of prayer because nobody knows exactly when you should zig or when you should zag, when do you move toward or when do you step back a notch. There's a lot of unknowns. Husband and wife, parent and step-parent put a lot of prayer into this.
Laura Dugger: Ron, you've worked with so many blended families. What have you seen as some of the best practices that they've used for overcoming barriers and fostering more peaceful sibling relationships?
Ron Deal: When it comes to siblings, I'm quick to tell people and we talk about this in Building Love Together in Blended Families. There's a whole chapter on this. [00:41:49] Just like with step-parents and step-child relationships, you can't force or demand love. That's something two people figure out in their own time, in their own way. They develop that. It comes with trust.
So you can't demand love between step-siblings but you can create a climate that makes it more likely that they'll become friends and then eventually figure out how to be siblings. It's just managing climate. With younger children, it's "Hey, hey, hey, hey. We don't slap our sister. We don't treat each other that way. Be nice."
Those sorts of practical, honest things. We celebrate one another's victories. We show up for one another's soccer games. We cheer on each other. You can insist, if you will, create a climate where people are involved in the kinds of things that make them on the same team with one another. They'll have to figure out how close they get, how deep that relationship goes. That's entirely up to them. [00:42:50] Time and time spent together will usually facilitate and foster that.
By the way, a simple little fact that I like to share with people about step-sibling relationships. The research is pretty clear that early on in the family journey, step-siblings have less conflict than biological siblings. On the surface, you would hear that and you would go, hey, that's good news. Yeah, it is good news because it's less stuff for you to have to manage or deal with as a parent.
But it actually is indicative of the fact that they're less emotionally connected because they don't know each other or trust each other or love each other like they do siblings, they don't necessarily unload on each other, they're kind of nice.
It's kind of like when somebody tells you your kid is such a great kid in this classroom at school and you're like, Are you talking about my child? Because they're just a different child with other people, not their own family. Same thing's true between step-siblings.
But research shows that as time goes on and as step-sibling relationships deepen, the conflict goes up. [00:43:52] So the irony is the closer they get, the more conflict they may have. That's actually a positive sign instead of a negative one. But of course, you've got to deal with the conflict. So it's a process and you're trying to manage the climate so the process can happen.
Laura Dugger: And one other side that we don't often consider is how blended families can now involve maybe three living generations of family members. So how can step-families navigate healthy relationships with the grandparents involved?
Ron Deal: Yeah, it's a good question. Again, we've got a whole chapter on grandparenting in this book. I think grandparents have a significant role to play. They can give so many positive messages. They can help children deal with the transitions in and out of a single-parent home into a blended-family home. They're the ones that are there, who are consistent caregivers to grandchildren throughout the different transitions that are taking place. [00:44:51] All of that helps provide a stabilizing factor for kids.
But it also depends on how you become a step-grandparent. So, for example, there's four different types of grandparents or step-grandparents, I should say. Imagine you're in your early 70s and you're a widow and you meet this person who's also a widow and you decide to get married and you're thinking it's just the two of us, life's free. Well, you may bring grandkids and this new spouse may bring grandkids and you immediately become step-grandparents to the other's grandkids and you don't know them from Adam or Eve. Like you don't know these kids at all.
You have a loving relationship with your biological grandkids, but now you've got a 15-year-old step-grandson that you don't know or know anything about. And wow, he's had some things exposed to him in his life that you would never want for your grandkids. So all of a sudden it's a hard relationship to develop. You're new on the scene. The 15-year-old didn't ask for you. You didn't ask for him. Right? [00:45:52]
That could create some challenge. And so those five P's come into play. They are still going to apply. You're still going to pursue and pace and be persistent. And all of that is helpful. Knowing the kid's love language and how to approach that with some wisdom. All of that we flesh out in the book is a bonding process that helps step-grandparents.
One important factor here is what we call the middle generation. So the upper generation is the grandparent or step-grandparent, the lower generation is the children and the middle generation is the parents, the adult parents. They make or break whether a step-grandparent can even be involved in somebody's life.
So you marry this guy and he has grandchildren. Well, what if his adult children say, Uh-uh, we don't really want you spending time with our kids. Well, then you can't. All of a sudden there's a roadblock there. So you'd have to build a relationship with them first, gain their trust, then you might have access to the step-grandchildren. [00:46:50] So again, multi-layered, multi-generational, multi-household. It can be complex.
Laura Dugger: It can be so complex. And yet you've given us so much hope through this chat. So if you had to just boil all of this information down to a single action step, where would you encourage couples to start today?
Ron Deal: Well, get smart. All of my materials are called the Smart Stepfamily, the Smart Stepmom, the Smart Stepdad. Smart Stepfamilies is the brand, right?
The smarter you get about driving this vehicle and understanding how it works and how to steer it and navigate it and the maintenance on this motorcycle, the easier it is for you to be successful, to find what you got married for. Right?
And so start that journey. And let me tell you, 25 years ago, 27 years ago, when I really started first doing this, people complained to me for a decade and a half, there's nothing available on stepfamily living. And it was true. But it is no longer true. [00:47:53]
We have more materials in audio form and book form and resource and video and more coming out on a regular basis. You have no excuse to learn about this and to get smart, which helps you navigate the journey well and walk with God.
So come see us. Go to Rondeal.org. That's my personal website. You'll have access to everything that I have available through FamilyLife, through Smart Stepfamilies, events, podcasts, social media, all of it. You'll have access to it. Rondeal.org.
Laura Dugger: And if this is anybody's first time listening, we always will link to this in both our show notes and on our resources tab of the website, TheSavvySauce.com. But Ron, is there any other place that you would point them to follow you online?
Ron Deal: Well, yeah, there's multiple places, social media wise, Facebook, Twitter. But I think it's best if you just go to that one website because then you'll see the vast options. [00:48:56] Some people absorb information through audio. So our podcast, the FamilyLife Blended podcast is a great tool for them. But other people much rather read or watch a video. Well, we kind of have all of those distribution channels available to people, and a lot of them are free. It's a lot of free material. And so I think go to Rondeal.org and then you'll be able to find what works for you.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. I'm excited for people to get started today and find more hope and encouragement. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so Ron is my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Ron Deal: Well, you know, probably one of the most influential things in my life in the last 15 years has been a simple little phrase "What I know about me". I use this all the time in my own personal life. My wife and I use it together in our marriage. We use it in our parenting. I use it with my clients. And I'm teaching it in marriage conferences.
Because essentially what the phrase does, what I know about me, is it puts me in a mode of humility where I begin to reflect what's going on inside of me to the outside world. [00:50:13] So in my marriage, when I find myself frustrated or angry or upset or my wife's upset with me and she comes to me and all of a sudden I want to get defensive to stop and to say, Okay, what I know about me is that I'm feeling defensive and I'm feeling accused.
And what I usually do with that is I push back on you and I argue with you, honey, because I want you to like me, but that never works because then that just makes you more angry. And so what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to push back. I just want to hear you. I want to try to absorb this and understand a little bit better. And then I'm going to try to just affirm what you're about to say.
Now, if I go to the trouble of saying all of that out loud, a couple of things happen. Number one, I get my heart in the right place. I put on my humility and I'm called by God to put on humility. Then and only then... by the way, the brain science behind this is fascinating. Then and only then, Laura, am I calm enough to actually use all the skills and things that I've learned through the years and tools that I have in my emotional relational toolbox. [00:51:21] If I don't calm down and put on humility, I will never use the tools. So that's number one.
Number two, if I go to the trouble of saying all that out loud, my wife now knows Ron just put on his humility. I don't have to worry about him being defensive or argumentative like he used to be because now I know he's managing himself. So I just need to manage myself.
And guess what happens? She stops being a little more focused on me and a little more focused on herself, and we now have two people who have put on humility and are trying to walk correctly and rightfully before God and with each other in a loving way. And the odds of us finding our way through that conflict have gone up tremendously. It's still conflict. It's still uncomfortable. That's life. But with a little humility, at least we're not against each other. We're more on each other's side. What I know about me, that's the tool I'm using more and more these days. [00:52:22]
Laura Dugger: I love it. Such a memorable phrase. Ron, I just want to say thank you for your faithful work in this space and thank you for teaching us more about God's grace today. I truly appreciated having you as my guest.
Ron Deal: Thank you, Laura. It's been an honor to be with you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:53:24]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:54:23] We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:55:27]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 07, 2020
Monday Sep 07, 2020
110. Financial Heart Issues with Rachel Cruze
**Transcription Below**
1 Timothy 6:6-11 (NIV) “But godliness with contentment is great gain.”
Rachel Cruze is a #1 New York Times best-selling author and host of both The Rachel Cruze Show and The Rachel Cruze Show podcast. Rachel helps people learn the proper ways to handle money and stay out of debt. She’s authored three best-selling books, including Love Your Life, Not Theirs and Smart Money Smart Kids, which she co-wrote with her father, Dave Ramsey. You can follow Cruze on Twitter and Instagram at @RachelCruze and online at rachelcruze.com,youtube.com/rachelcruze or facebook.com/rachelramseycruze
Other Episodes Related to Finances:
Episode 3: Being Intentional with our Health, Finances and Relationships with Elizabeth Dixon
Episode 10: How to Align Your Finances with Your Values with Natalie Taylor
Episode 27: Life Lessons with my Dad with Bill Leman
Episode 70: Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright
Special Episode: Ideas for Spreading Generosity with Courtney DeFeo
Episode 98: Financial Wisdom Amidst COVID-19 and Beyond with Natalie Taylor
Patron-Only Episode: Answering Common Financial Questions with Certified Financial Planner and Speaker, Natalie Taylor
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
3 Books by Rachel Cruze:
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Samaritan Ministries and Plan to Eat (This link takes you to their special offer: 60 day free-trial!)
Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries offers a biblical solution to health care, connecting you to other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Our sponsor for this episode is Plan to Eat. Make sure you check out their app today or visit their website. Savvy Sauce listeners get a 60-day free trial that requires no payment information when they visit PlanToEat.com/Savvy.
Rachel Cruze is our guest today. You may recognize her from her longtime presence online teaching about all things related to finances. She's going to give us a quick peek into her parenting as it relates to training kids with financial wisdom. And she's going to share more of the root issue behind all financial decisions. [00:01:19]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Rachel.
Rachel Cruze: Thank you so much, Laura. Thanks for having me on.
Laura Dugger: Well, we gotta start here. What was it like to hate budgets as you grew up Dave Ramsey's daughter?
Rachel Cruze: Well, I think a lot of people assume that, you know, growing up as Dave Ramsey's kid that we had mutual fund birthday parties and had budget camps every summer and it was like this hardcore money household. But thankfully, that was not the case. Mom and dad were very good at teaching us how money works, but they weren't overly legalistic, if you will.
So the fact that I hated budgets, it wasn't an absolutely terrible thing. I still had to do one and understand like, okay, this is how you control your money, this is how you tell your money where to go and all of that.
And for that, I really was thankful because I'm not naturally good at details. I didn't care to budget. I just wanted to spend and enjoy.
I finally started to see that a budget doesn't limit your freedom. [00:02:19] A budget gives you freedom. It gives you permission to spend money on things that you want and things that you value. And so I really took that to heart probably a few months after I got married in my early 20s and I'm like, "Okay, this is good. This budgeting thing is good." So now actually I love a budget because it shows me how much I can spend.
Laura Dugger: And what has your financial journey looked like since that time?
Rachel Cruze: I mean, it has changed a little bit. I mean, the principles are still the same. When Winston and I got married about 10 years ago, yeah, we started off on a great foot financially. He really didn't come into the marriage with debt and I didn't have debt. And so that was a huge part of us being able to win faster, which I'm so thankful for.
It's something we teach couples all the time to get out of debt so that your income can be used, that you can give it away, that you can use it to build wealth and use it for your family. And so we've been doing that and it's been exciting.
You know, we still have our ups and our downs for sure, [00:03:20] we're still human, but the budget really has been the thing that's kind of kept it going and kept it in control and not feel like this absolute crazy show.
Laura Dugger: Well, and then just on a personal note, I'm wondering, did Winston follow the baby steps that your dad had laid out before you two met?
Rachel Cruze: That's funny. No, he didn't. Actually, he had never really heard of Dave Ramsey when we started dating in college and all that. He had a couple of things that he was like, "Oh, yeah, I have a credit card. No big deal."
You know, it was just the things that my average Americans do and have with their money that don't follow our plan. But, yeah, he learns probably relatively fast. I was pretty passionate about it, about kind of where I stood with everything. And he was like, "Yeah, it makes sense. Sure." It was not thankfully this major convincing or anything. He was pretty on board.
And he's a natural saver so this was all up his alley. He was like, "Oh, this is great. I love it. I love having saved money. So let's do it."
Laura Dugger: Well, that's awesome. [00:04:19] Because there often are couples where there's one saver and one spender. And it sounds like that's true for you two, and you've come together.
But I just love one of the quotes. I think it was from one of your books where you say "A budget gives you permission to spend without guilt." And I know my husband and I find that to be so true. In general, your teaching just leads to freedom. So will you elaborate on your three-step process for financial freedom in our minds?
Rachel Cruze: Yeah. We talk about the tactical side of money so many times, you know, getting out of debt and budgeting and saving, investing. But the heart issue, the mind issue... I mean, these are big topics that you really have to come around. But I think one of the ultimate things to find in life that helps you win over the long term is contentment.
And contentment is a word that's thrown around a lot. I think it can be hard to achieve. So I did kind of figure out that three-step process to ultimately get the contentment. And so you first have to start with gratitude. Just being grateful. And put things in place, patterns in place that allow that gratitude to come out, whether it's a list you make every day. [00:05:24] It's something that you say to your spouse. Maybe every day you just say one or two things you're grateful for them.
But just practicing gratitude is huge because once you're grateful for something and grateful for your life, you can transition into humility really fast. And humility, C.S. Lewis says that is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. And so when you're grateful for your life and you're able to be humble and serve and outpour, then contentment is the natural next step.
And contentment, it's not complacency. It's not laziness. Contentment really is at this place where you're just at peace with where you are in life and what you have, knowing that stuff is not going to create joy in your life. It can be fun, but it's not the end all be all.
So that contentment piece is key. Because I just find people, they're willing to sacrifice their lifestyle to get out of debt when they're content. They're able to say no to stuff and save when they're content. Content people just, they win faster financially. And it's a big heart issue that I think is really important, especially in today's world. [00:06:26]
Laura Dugger: That's really interesting. I kind of want to pause here because you've even taught that income doesn't really affect the people who choose to go into debt, that it does begin with more of a heart issue. So do you have any personal struggles of contentment that you can share and how you've applied this three-step process to enjoy the contentment?
Rachel Cruze: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I have to practice this on a daily basis. Yeah, for me, my downfall is always just like I'm a spender at heart, I love spending money. I can get in that rat race of just thinking, Oh... I mean, I'll even tell myself sometimes, which I hate, but I'll be online looking at something. I'm like, "Oh, I really want that," and in my head and in my spirit, I'm like, "That's going to satisfy this itch that I have. I'm going to scratch this itch and buy this shirt that's 50% off, but I'm going to get it in the mail in a few days." And it's like this adrenaline, exciting thinking that, okay, yeah, this will satisfy me. [00:07:28]
And I know in my brain, no, it's not going to scratch that itch, Rachel. No, there's deeper issues there that you're just trying to fulfill from buying this silly shirt that's online that has this nice sale or something.
I mean, I see that stuff all the time. And even social media, seeing people that I know, some people I don't even know, I've never met before that I follow, and seeing their life and thinking, "Wow, they have it all together." And I can start to go in that cycle too. And the mom guilt comes in. Are they a better mom than me? Or wow, their stuff is taking off more than mine.
I mean, you can get in this cycle of comparison, which eats away at contentment. And so, yeah, I always have to check myself. Again, starting with that gratitude place. And If find myself doing that, I'm like, "Okay, just be grateful for what you have, Rachel. Be here and be satisfied and be grateful." It's a for sure a journey for me.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Samaritan Ministries connects Christians from across the nation who care for one another's medical needs without the use of insurance. [00:08:32] Each month, members send their financial gift to a member with a need, pray, and send a note of encouragement, all while reflecting God's love and care.
As a healthcare-sharing ministry, there is no network, so you have the freedom to choose the doctor, hospital, and pharmacy that works best for you and your family. And Samaritan provides resources that can help you choose a provider, price medical procedures, and get medical advice before you visit the doctor.
New members are always welcome, and you can join today. When the body of Christ comes together to pray, encourage, and provide for one another, burdens are lifted and God is glorified. This applies to all areas of life, including healthcare.
Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Sponsor: I am so grateful for our sponsor, Plan to Eat. [00:09:33] I have personally subscribed to their app for months, and I am pleased with their offerings and their customer service. The team has been helpful, responsive, and very kind.
I've never experienced an app quite like this one. The founders say, "We believe our physical and emotional health is directly tied to what we eat. Plan to Eat was born from our desire to eat real food, great food, prepared at home, together as a family. Our hope is that Plan to Eat will be a tool to help you prepare delicious, wholesome food that nourishes both body and soul."
So basically, Plan to Eat gives you the tools to clip and organize recipes from any website. Then you can create a meal plan around your schedule, and their software automatically creates an organized shopping list based on your plan.
Plan to Eat is a subscription service that offers monthly and yearly options for $4.95 a month or $39 a year, which comes out to about 75 cents a week. [00:10:34] And even better, Savvy Sauce listeners get a 60-day free trial requiring no payment information when they visit plantoeat.com/savvy. Again, visit plantoeat.com/Savvy for your free 60-day trial. I hope you check out Plan to Eat today.
Laura Dugger: Switching gears here, what tips do you have for married couples so that they can be on the same page with their finances?
Rachel Cruze: This is a very key component, I think, to winning with money when you're married is to work together and be a team. And you can do that a couple of ways. I think getting on the same page with your money, a budget, doing the budget together, agreeing where your money's going reveals so much more than just where your money's going. I mean, it really reveals your goals. It reveals your dreams. It reveals your fears. And so working together as a team is very, very crucial by doing that budget together.
Combine all your accounts. If you still have separate checking accounts, combine them. [00:11:35] Work as one. That's the one piece of advice people just are not happy with me that I give. A lot of people are like, "No, they need to be separate. You're still an individual and all this." And I'm like, "Yes, you are still an individual. But when you're married, you say one in every aspect of your marriage, including your money." And so coming together and combining those accounts is key.
And then I think creating long-term goals together. Find something that you guys are working towards because it just kind of keeps you motivated in this process. It could be that you want to get out of debt together. Maybe it's that you want to save X amount of money. Maybe it's you want to pay for your kid's college. Maybe it's you want to move school districts and be in a different county. I mean, whatever it is, have those dreams, those goals long-term together that you can work to as a team.
Laura Dugger: Well, and then ideally, we would be financially fit ourselves as parents before we attempt to train our kids in this area. But certainly, there is so much grace for this on-the-job learning that each of us experience. I would love to know how you and Winston are intentionally training your own children about money. [00:12:39]
Rachel Cruze: Yes. So we have a 5-year-old, a 3-year-old, and an 8-month-old. So the five-year-old is the one that we're working with right now. Caroline, the 3-year-old, yeah, she's three. You can start then. Honestly, we probably... We have a lot going on. So Caroline's watching her sister a lot.
But with Amelia, we're starting to teach her that money comes from work. She's getting more responsibilities around the house and helping pay for those things and showing her what things cost and starting to really show her what it looks like to give and save and spend and why we do the things that we do.
We'll have those conversations with her and make her do a couple of things. But even just two nights ago, my husband and I were kind of like, Oh. It filled my heart and made us kind of giggle at the same time. But she made a comment about something she got as a birthday gift recently. And she opened it, out of the box finally, it had been a little while.
And the toy came out of the box and she made the comment and she was like, "Oh, that is just not what I was expecting." And I was like, "What?" [00:13:40] And so we kind of walked her like, "Well, Amelia, listen, sometimes life is not what we expect and it's okay to be kind of sad that you were thinking it was one thing and it's not. But listen, we're going to be grateful. We're going to be grateful for this. And if you want a different kind of this toy, maybe we can save up and pay for it."
This whole conversation back and forth. And she said, "Yeah, well, we'll have to go to work because you and Daddy go to work to help people that don't have houses and food and water." And I was like, "Wow, she's 3 years old, but she understands we ultimately go to work to help people." Obviously, I help in the money space, but we make money and in turn, we give it back and we give to people that need it.
And so it just was one of those moments as a parent you think you're speaking this crazy language, but they get it. Like your kids are getting it. They can connect the dots. You know, I think some people think, Oh, they're still a little too young for the subject. And I'm like, "No. Dive in and talk about it and show them how money works in a real-life example."
Laura Dugger: So it sounds like you're prioritizing just open dialogue with kids when they're age-appropriate. [00:14:42] And then also maybe teaching that work equals pay at the end. So paying them on commission. And it sounds like a heart attitude of gratitude. But is there anything else that you prioritize teaching them at that age or even as they get a little bit older?
Rachel Cruze: That's the basics of it. I mean, when they get older, I really will probably push more to her, giving them some of that money, saving some of that money and spending that money, kind of that little budget that you can do with kids and helping her learn to do all three well. But we're not doing that right now at five. It's still kind of in the beginning stages.
Laura Dugger: I love that. As you think about your kids when they're ready to launch, what are some of the financial end goals or something that you guys would consider a win?
Rachel Cruze: I would love for them to live debt-free. I would love for them to be generous givers. I would love for them to be able to do the things that God's called them to do in their life and money is just a tool that helps them do that. [00:15:43]
And I think helping them learn the heart position of money, meaning that they are managers for what God has given us. God owns it all and we are managing this for Him. And kind of pulling them up to that higher calling.
Laura Dugger: Is there any scripture that keeps you focused on your financial goals as a family?
Rachel Cruze: Probably in 1 Timothy when it says, "Godliness with contentment is great gain." We kind of talked about contentment earlier, but that's a big one for me. It's just knowing like, man, when you have godliness paired with contentment, you can gain a lot in this world because there's not much the world can offer that can allow what God can fill. So that's a big one for me.
Laura Dugger: And then on the flip side, I think sometimes it's easier to learn for some people through the opposite. So what are some of the pitfalls that you and Winston want to avoid in teaching your children about finances?
Rachel Cruze: I never want them to get the picture from us that stuff is going to make them happy. [00:16:44] I talk a lot about that. It's okay to have nice stuff, but don't let your nice stuff have you. And it can have you by your identity, your happiness, everything we just talked about, being wrapped up in just tangible stuff, thinking, "Oh, if I could just have that purse, I'd be happy. If I could just have this, I'd be happy." And really, really, really not letting that be the priority is big.
Then also your stuff can have you when you go into debt for it. So that's a pitfall that we are avoiding with our kids and talking about the dangers of debt and showing them, you know, in Scripture, there's nothing good said about debt. And I don't think it's a sin. I don't think it's a salvation issue. So if your listener, you know, has student loan debt, I'm like, no, you're okay. You're okay. You're going to go to heaven. You know, it's not a salvation issue, but it can be a very dangerous game to play. And so we just avoid it at all costs. And I want to teach my kids that as well.
Laura Dugger: Hi, friends. You've heard us request you take a moment to rate and review us on iTunes. And I want to give you a quick explanation of why this is important.
If you've enjoyed the content this far on The Savvy Sauce, this is a simple way to express your gratitude. [00:17:46] When you give us a five-star rating and written review, it helps us gain more listeners, which in turn leads to better guests and more sponsors who make the future of The Savvy Sauce possible.
Your ratings and reviews have already helped us get downloaded in all 50 United States and over 100 countries around the world. Thank you for taking a moment to help us out so we can grow together and share the good news with every country around the world.
Clearly, you had some great training growing up. So thinking back to yourself as a kid, now that you're an adult and you can reflect on this, what do you think are some of the biggest lessons you learned about finances just from witnessing your parents?
Rachel Cruze: They said no to themselves a lot in order to say yes to other things. And it was kind of this trade-off. And I just think it's true today. I think that there's things that you want. Sometimes you can just outright buy it and it's fine. Or maybe you say no, even though you can afford it and you want it, to say yes to something else that's a better priority. [00:18:50]
That was a big thing that I saw them do. I think it just shows a lot of self-discipline, a lot of wisdom. So that was one thing I saw. I saw them being generous a lot, which is something that I've really taken on, that I really appreciate.
And then they practice what they preach. I mean, I think more is caught than taught. And parents, your kids are watching you. So if you're preaching one thing and doing another, that's what's known as a hypocrite, right? I'm like, you have to be consistent in your words and your actions.
And no one's perfect. We're not perfect at this. We need grace for sure. But the overall big value systems of money as you're teaching your kids, I would really say that following it with the actions is extremely important. And that's going to have a great influence on your children.
Laura Dugger: I want to zero in on that word "generosity". When you say that you witness them being generous, do you have any practical ways that we could emulate that or specific instances that you can recall that really taught you about generosity?
Rachel Cruze: Yeah. So everything from when Christmas came around and we were giving gifts, bought gifts for kids or anything around that, to even we'd see a family at dinner and they would pay for their dinner and talk about it, or they would leave a huge tip for the waiter that was working our table. [00:20:05] So it was things like that that they pointed out. And they told us not in a bragging way, but I think just to allow us to know, you know, dad would say, like, we've left a big tip. So let's go to the car and watch the window and see if you can see her reaction or his reaction.
We get to experience the joy of giving. So they would do it in all different kinds of ways, big, big ways, and even just small, small ways. But it spoke volumes.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to hear because I know a lot of times we focus on that scripture about one of your hands not knowing what the other is doing. And yet as parents, when we can talk about things and demonstrate it, we've seen that that's so powerful. And there's also scripture about letting your light shine before others so that they can see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven. So I feel like you just brought that to life. So thank you for sharing some personal examples.
Rachel Cruze: Yes.
Laura Dugger: What are some of the best practices you recommend for all parents?
Rachel Cruze: You know, teaching your kids the tangible aspects of money is big. [00:21:05] And then also getting to a place where you can pass on a legacy to them. You know, that may be being that you're helping to pay for college if you're able to do that. Or maybe it's in ways that you leave them something from your legacy that then they pass on to their children.
I mean, scripture says that a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children. And I think that inheritance can be tangible like money. I think it can be spirituality. I think it plays into so many ways. Taking that seriously and saying, You know what? If we build wealth on this side of us, we're going to teach our kids how to pass that down and to handle that well so that they can help others and be tremendously generous is a huge goal.
Laura Dugger: Do you have just a quick overview of a few practical tips for parents listening if they want to train kids? Let's just say generally like 5, 10 and 15. What would your tips be for those ages?
Rachel Cruze: Yes, I would say get a chore chart and write down the chores you want them to do around the house and then pay them. [00:22:06] Pay them once a week and say, "Okay, this is payday. Let's look to see what chores you've done and have three little envelopes. Give, save, and spend." And as you pay them, let them divide it up into those three areas.
Then I would say the older ones, you know, the 15-ish and older, get a student checking account at the bank and teach them how a debit card works, what it looks like to pay for things online. I used to say write checks. You probably could still teach them to write checks. It's just not as prominent these days.
But teaching them how to balance a bank statement and to budget for things that they want. And mom and dad did this. They put a certain amount of money at the beginning of the month in this checking account for me. And they did it for my older sister as well and my younger brother. And we were in charge of managing that account.
And if we wanted more money, we had to go get a job and work and make more money and put it in this account. But we were never allowed to ask them for money. So if we wanted to go to the movies with friends or we wanted to buy something at the mall, we couldn't ask them for like a $20 bill. It had to come out of this account that we've been managing. [00:23:06]
And we had to make decisions, even as teenagers, of, Okay, I can go out to eat with my friends here. But that means I won't have money to go to a movie next weekend. What do I want to do? You know, you kind of have to make these decisions as a teen. And that was really, really helpful.
Laura Dugger: I love that idea because then you can make the $50 mistake rather than the $5,000 or $50,000 mistake later on.
Rachel Cruze: Exactly. Yeah. There's a lot of mistakes that can happen under your roof that won't damage them long-term financially versus, yeah, the first time they ever handle money they make a mistake on a car lot and it's a $30,000 mistake. Exactly.
Laura Dugger: Well, I love asking successful women like yourself this question. Just out of curiosity, what has God taught you about simultaneously living into both of these precious roles of career and motherhood?
Rachel Cruze: Yes, it's been hard, but I feel like I've gotten in a pretty good groove of it. I have learned that I can't do everything. [00:24:06] So I have learned to outsource what I can outsource and not have guilt or shame about that.
I have put in our budget certain things. We've taken things out of the budget in order to have someone help clean the house every other week, which has been huge, so that I'm not doing it on the weekends, we're not spending family time with that.
Shipt is the grocery delivery service. I've invested in that app because now I don't have to go to the grocery. I pay a little bit more for the groceries to be delivered, but, again, I can outsource that. But I can't outsource being a mom, and I can't outsource my love, and I can't outsource the times that I'm home with them and present with them. So that's one thing I've learned.
I've also learned that having life balance is not about being 50-50, but it's about being 100 percent present. My friend, Christy Wright, always says that, and I love that quote because it allows me to be at work and be using the gifts that God's given me, and I'm present here. When I'm at work, I am doing my work as unto the Lord. Like, I am focused. I'm here. But when I'm home, I'm mom. I try not to keep my phone with me. I say, you know what? I'll check email when they go to bed, but I'm here with my kids. [00:25:07]
I've also learned that there are seasons. There are seasons of times you're able to do a little bit more hard driving at work, and there's times that you need to be a little bit more at home. So I'm even shifting in that. I have three kids now, five and under, which is just crazy, and it's insane, and I love it, and even shifting to be home more with them in this next season. And so that's something I've really felt God pull my heart toward and something that I'm being obedient in.
It's been a joy to be able to do that because I know, you know, in short five years, they're all going to be in school, and I'm going to have the day to work even more, you know, when that season comes. So I've learned that things are seasonal and to listen to where the Spirit's guiding you.
Laura Dugger: It's such a common struggle to, like you say, try and chase this elusive balance, which isn't really a realistic goal.
Rachel Cruze: Yeah, you're exactly right. I know when people are like, Oh, it's just life balance. I'm like, no, that doesn't exist. As a whole person, you're not going to have the perfect amount of physical time every day and spiritual time and intellectual time and family time and social time and work time. [00:26:08] Like, it's not going to be equally balanced. It's very seasonal.
The hard thing is, I think people make the mistake that over the course of their life, their life is unbalanced. And they focus all their time at work and neglect their family, and they have these grown kids now that don't even have a relationship with them. Or you can pick any part of who we are as people. And if you focus on one thing for too long over too much time, other things start to suffer. And so I think looking at yourself as a whole person over the course of your life is really key.
Laura Dugger: I love that you just boiled that down to keeping in step with the Spirit, because I'm sure that God does not have a cookie-cutter answer for all of us on how much to pour into each role. But now, just for fun, as it relates to personal development, what are you currently reading, talking about, and listening to?
Rachel Cruze: Well, okay, so, Lord, don't judge me on this. But I have fallen in love with thriller-type novels, like my books I love, like, a murder mystery. So I just finished one of those, and it was great. [00:27:10] As I said, I'm doing a Bible study with some girls in my neighborhood, Seamless by Angie Smith. That's been excellent.
My listening, honestly, has been just music on the radio. I'm kind of like old school in that way, that if I'm driving or something, I'm like, I just need a little bit of music in the background. And that's good. But if I get a good sermon or something sent to me, podcast, that's usually what I'll listen to.
Laura Dugger: Love it. And, Rachel, just in general, you're so fun and helpful to learn from. So where can listeners go to find you online?
Rachel Cruze: Thank you. Rachelcruze.com has a lot of resources. I have a YouTube show and also that we put on Facebook, as well as a podcast and a few books out wherever books are sold.
Laura Dugger: Great. We will link to all of that in our show notes and on our Resources tab of our website. And we're called The Savvy Sauce because "Savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. [00:28:09] So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Rachel Cruze: My savvy sauce is probably say no to debt because it steals your joy and it steals your paycheck.
Laura Dugger: Rachel, you are enthusiastic, humble, and just a wealth of knowledge and advice. Thank you for generously sharing all of your savvy ways with us today. It was a blast to have you as my guest.
Rachel Cruze: Awesome. Thank you so much. Well, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:29:12] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:30:14] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:31:16]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Aug 31, 2020
Monday Aug 31, 2020
109. Powerful Purpose of Introverts with Holley Gerth
**Transcription Below**
Holley Gerth is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, life coach, and speaker with a master of science degree in mental health. She cofounded (in)courage, a site that received almost one million views in its first six months, and cohosts the popular podcast More Than Small Talk. Holley is passionate about empowering people, especially introverts, to embrace who they are and become all they're created to be. Holley lives in the South with her husband, Mark. You can connect with her at holleygerth.com.
Psalms 139:14 NIV “I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Sample of Books by Holley Gerth:
The Powerful Purpose of Introverts
You’re Made for a God-Sized Dream
Other Savvy Sauce Episodes to Grow in Self-Awareness:
42 Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Beth McCord
71 Deep Dive Into the Enneagram with Beth McCord
72 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 1 with Kathleen Edelman
73 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 2 with Kathleen Edelman
85 Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
92 The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Samaritan Ministries
Try affordable, safe, and convenient online counseling here with one of our sponsors
Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries offers a Biblical solution to health care, connecting you with other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
This conversation is one of the most enlightening chats I've ever been a part of as it relates to personality differences of extroverts and introverts.
Our guest has an impressive bio. Holley Gerth is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, life coach, and speaker with a Master of Science degree in mental health.
She's going to share so many insights into the lives and personalities of introverts. So whether you're an introvert or you love someone else who is one, this time is going to be super helpful.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Holley. [00:01:17]
Holley Gerth: Thanks for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Goodness, can I just start by saying I love, love, love your writing. It's so obvious why you're a bestselling author. And so today I'm excited because we're going to be discussing your newest book. But before we get to all of that, will you just begin by telling us more about who you are, who you share your life with, and how you typically spend your days?
Holley Gerth: Yes. Well, I'm the granddaughter of a Christian bookstore owner. So I was that little kid with a big stack of books dreaming of being a writer when I grew up. So it's fun that that actually happened.
Another dream that has come true in my life is my family. I have kind of a crazy family story. I've been married to my husband, Mark, for about 20 years. We couldn't have kiddos, and God brought our daughter, Lavelle, into our lives when she was 20. And so she now has two little kiddos and a husband. So I just became a nana for the second time three weeks ago, which is very exciting. [00:02:22] So I have Lavelle in my life, her husband David, little Eula, and now Clement Luther as well.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredible. And congratulations.
Holley Gerth: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: Well, your most recent book is titled The Powerful Purpose of Introverts. We were chatting a little bit before this, I was telling you I'm about as extroverted as they come. But I 100% adored this book. And so I can vouch for saying it's helpful for both introverts and extroverts.
But I do think there are so many misconceptions of the definition of these categories. And you explain in the book that introversion and extroversion aren't about personality but how we're physically wired. So can you elaborate?
Holley Gerth: Right. That was a big aha for me. Also, none of us are 100% introvert or extrovert. We're all somewhere on a continuum. [00:03:21] I actually have a little one-minute quiz on my side if someone's curious how much introvert do I have in me. But like you said, Laura, you're probably more on the extrovert side, I'm more on the introvert side. But that actually comes from how we're wired.
We now know that introverts and extroverts use different primary neurotransmitters, have different parts of their nervous systems that they rely on more, and also use different primary brain pathways.
And so I love that because it says to me that we are created as introverts and extroverts, that we're a complementary pairing, that God said, I'm going to put these two different types of people together because we have strengths that really bring out the best in each other. And we kind of balance out the world when we're both fully embracing who God created us to be.
Laura Dugger: Amen to all of that. [00:04:20] But just in case anyone's curious about the definitions or about any misconceptions, do you want to give an overview of how an introvert can be defined?
Holley Gerth: Yes. I would say an introvert is someone who engages with the world differently as far as how we respond to external stimulation. And external stimulation just means anything coming into our nervous systems from the outside. So that's really the basis of it.
A lot of times people think being an introvert is about people because people are the most stimulating things in our environment. But it's actually not about that. It's just about how we process what's happening in our environment.
Laura Dugger: Okay, that's helpful. So someone who loves people and maybe really enjoys conversation with them, that could be someone who is extroverted or introverted. Is that right? [00:05:21]
Holley Gerth: Either one. Either one. Because both introverts and extroverts love people equally. They are equally social, just differently social. For example, an introvert would probably enjoy coffee with one friend more than a crowded room or party. Because, again, going back to that stimulation, there's a lot less going on in that conversation with one friend.
Introverts can fully focus. We can take our time processing. We can sort of lock in on this one person and give them our full attention. And that's sort of our preferred way of connection.
Extroverts may like to do that sometimes, too. But they're also more likely to enjoy things where there are more people in the room, where they can talk to several different people in a short amount of time, where they can connect or be in a group or share a story.
And so it's not about how much we love people or whether we're social or not. [00:06:21] It's just what setting is the most natural for us to truly connect with people.
Laura Dugger: I want to go a little bit further. So let's just do a little brain and hormones 101. So specifically, will you teach us more about the brain differences between introverts and extroverts?
Holley Gerth: Sure. So I mentioned the neurotransmitters. So we all have a neurotransmitter called dopamine. It's a reward chemical. Anything, again, that external stimulation is going to activate it. You can think of dopamine as kind of like caffeine. It revs us up. It energizes us.
Introverts kind of have a dopamine level that already feels good to them. It's like they've had their coffee for the day and they're set, where extroverts have a more active dopamine network and they actually need more of it to feel their best. So they're going to say, "I need a few more cups of coffee." So the way they're going to get that is by finding external stimulation, like engaging with people or having an adventure, you know, all of those things that we think about with extroverts. [00:07:30]
Introverts rely more on a different neurotransmitter called acetylcholine. And acetylcholine is released when we turn inward, when we're reflective, when we're in quieter environments, when we're doing things that are more restful. And that is what makes introverts feel our best.
So you can kind of think of dopamine as coffee, acetylcholine as tea. We all use both of these, of course, but we each have a slight preference for one over the other.
So extroverts lean more toward that energizing dopamine system. Introverts lean more toward that calmer, reflective, inward-focused acetylcholine. So that's one major difference.
Then we each have two divisions of our nervous system: sympathetic and parasympathetic. And they work in much the same way. One revs us up, one is in charge of calming us down. So, again, extroverts and introverts rely on different parts of our nervous systems. [00:08:34]
And then the third thing is they have actually found that introverts and extroverts use different primary brain pathways. And so extroverts use a shorter, faster brain pathway. That means they're mostly focused on the present. They're good at thinking quickly, speaking quickly, acting quickly.
Whereas introverts have a longer, more complex brain pathway that goes through several different centers of their brain. They pull in the past, the present, and the future, then kind of combine that. And then they're ready to share what's on their mind.
So a lot of times introverts will get frustrated because they say, in a meeting or something, I need time to gather my thoughts. Why can't I just spit it out? And it's because they're using that different brain pathway. But it becomes a strength because they are considering so many different parts of a situation and bringing that into whatever they're adding to the conversation. [00:09:39] So they're really thinking through what they're going to say.
So if you picture a situation like a meeting where you have an extrovert that says, "I have an idea," and the introvert says, "Let's think about how to make that happen," and then the extrovert says, "Okay, now it's time to make a decision and act," and the introvert says, "I'll make sure those steps get taken." You kind of see that back and forth between the faster brain pathway and then the more reflective, complex brain pathway and how together those two work really well.
And again, this isn't exclusive. We all use both of these brain pathways. It's just that we naturally go to the one or the other first.
Laura Dugger: I really appreciate what you just shared. I remember reading something like introverts are not slow processors. They're deep processors or deep thinkers.
Holley Gerth: Yes. A lot of times people say about introverts, You know, she doesn't talk a lot, but when she does, it's worth hearing. [00:10:39] And so we need to lean into that and not say, Okay, I have to make myself respond differently. But instead say, I have permission to take the time that I need to think because that is going to empower me to add more value to the conversation I'm in or more insight into a decision that needs to be made.
And so it is always okay for an introvert to just say, You know what? That is really important to me. I need just a little bit of time to think about it. We often feel uncomfortable giving ourselves that permission, but it's totally okay. And it lets us work more at our peak capacity.
Laura Dugger: And then you also write about self-awareness being crucial to thriving. So can you just elaborate both on what self-awareness is and what it is not?
Holley Gerth: I think self-awareness is just understanding who you are, who God has made you. [00:11:41] There's three different ways that we can approach the world. We can approach the world from a place of self-focus, from a place of self-criticism or from a place of self-awareness.
Self-focus is pride. You know, I'm better than everyone else. Self-criticism is that insecurity and fear that can trip us up where I'm not as good as anyone else. Self-awareness is just saying, you know what? God has made me unique. He's given me strengths and gifts, and I want to understand those so that I can serve and fulfill His purpose for my life.
So I think a lot of times, especially believers, get tripped up because we confuse self-awareness with that self-focus. Or we try to do self-awareness and run into self-criticism. But I think saying, you know what? When I choose to be aware of who God made me, it just empowers me to serve and love well and to thrive as who I'm created to be. [00:12:44]
I love how that verse, Psalm 139:14 says, "I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made." And so self-awareness does not lead to pride. It doesn't lead to self-condemnation. Instead, it leads to praise. Because we can say, "Wow, God, look at who you made me. Now help me offer that to the world."
Laura Dugger: I agree with that totally. That discovery is so helpful. And when you look at others who are self-aware, I just find them to be so life-giving.
Holley Gerth: Yes. Usually, people who are self-aware are good at giving other people permission to be who they are too. Because if we are not self-aware, our basic assumption usually tends to be that everyone is just like us. So when we understand, Okay, I'm different and unique. I have my own strengths and purpose and abilities, then we look at other people in the same way and say, "I'm not asking you to be more like me. [00:13:44] I want to know how I can empower you to be who you're created to be. And then how we can partner together for the kingdom."
That's what I love about it is that being aware of yourself allows you to also be aware of how others are created. And then when we all do that, we become the body of Christ, which is God's heart and vision. I think that gets me more excited than anything else is when I see someone just take their place in God's plan and embrace who they're created to be.
Laura Dugger: I think I'm with you. I'm discovering there's something too that you want it for everyone. And the more I read the Bible, it seems like God wants that for each of His children and for us to work together in that, not try to be someone else.
So for you as a life coach and counselor, what tools have you seen help with self-awareness?
Holley Gerth: Well, I was just listening to one of your episodes with Beth McCord about the Enneagram. [00:14:48] I think that's a helpful tool. I really like the Myers-Briggs personality test. And so that's sort of one letter in that will give you whether you're an introvert or extrovert.
I like a quiz by Gretchen Rubin called The Four Tendencies that helps us figure out how we respond to different expectations. And I think the love languages, most of us are familiar with that, but just understanding how we give and receive love.
I think all of those are helpful tools. There's a lot of them out there. So just kind of exploring and seeing what appeals to you and then applying it in your life. That's an incredible list.
Laura Dugger: Other than Gretchen Rubin, we've had guests on each of those topics, including Dr. Gary Chapman with The Five Love Languages and Scott Wildy with Myers-Briggs and multiple guests for the Enneagram. So I'm glad you brought that up. We will certainly link to that in the show notes if someone wants to pair that with your book to help grow in the self-awareness. [00:15:52]
But back to your book, you share nine specific strengths of introverts, and the first one being strategic solitude. So how is solitude different than simply being alone?
Holley Gerth: Well, I hear introverts say a lot, "I need time alone." And that is actually very true, again, because of what we talked about with our brain and nervous system wiring. When we're saying, "I need to be alone," we're saying "I need some time with less external stimulation to be restored.
If you think about our nervous systems as nets, because of the way we're wired, introverts are like a net with really small holes. And so we catch everything going on around us, which means at some point our net is going to be full and we're going to need to take some time to empty some of that out, which means just having time to process.
That is different from just being alone. I think being alone is about the absence of other people. [00:16:56] I think solitude is about an intentional choice to reconnect with God, with your true self, and even with others.
Sometimes when I'm alone, I actually feel still really connected to other people. The goal of solitude is to come back to connection, where when we're just alone, sometimes we can feel a sense of disconnection.
So I encourage introverts to ask themselves, am I choosing this time on my own? Is it intentional and restorative? Does it ultimately make me feel more connected to God, others, and my true self? And if the answer to those questions is yes, then it's solitude. It's not just time alone.
And solitude is absolutely essential for introverts. It's actually essential for extroverts, too, even though they may not need quite as much. In our world today, solitude, I think, is so important because it's where we think, we reflect, we slow down and process, we live intentionally, we come up with new ideas, we exercise our creativity. [00:18:08]
All of these things happen in solitude. And so I want introverts to be able to let go of any guilt they feel about needing that time alone. It is not selfish. It's actually an act of service.
Laura Dugger: I've always just envisioned solitude has to be sitting there trying not to think about anything. As you described it, I kind of had my own aha moment that that's actually one of my favorite and most fruitful spiritual disciplines.
Holley Gerth: And it is. For much of the history of the church, solitude was a regular rhythm in the lives of believers, just like prayer or fellowship. We happen to live in a time in our culture where faith leans a little more extroverted. And I think solitude is maybe one thing that we have lost in all of that.
So, yes, solitude is fruitful. It's creative. It's necessary. And it is, I think, part of just our walks with God, because when we are alone, we are still with Him. [00:19:13]
Laura Dugger: So what can help introverts and then all of us really find what you refer to as sacred confidence?
Holley Gerth: Yeah, I share a text in the book that I got from my amazing friend, Taylor, who is a smart, beautiful, wonderful introvert. She sent me a note late one night and said, "Sometimes I wonder why God made me an introvert. And sometimes I even wonder if he can love me that way." And that broke my heart that I've had the same thing expressed by other introverts who just feel like they don't fit at church or they don't fit with a certain kind of faith walk and think, I need to change.
I think sacred confidence is, again, going back to that self-awareness and then just realizing that there is no one right way to connect with God. I tell people, think about how you connect with people when you feel the closest to the people that you love. [00:20:18]
So, for example, I mentioned having coffee with one person. That'd probably be it for me is I'm sitting across from you, there are no distractions, we're engaged in meaningful conversation. I realized that's how I feel closest to God, too. I literally this morning had coffee with Jesus at my breakfast table. I had my coffee and my journal, and I was with Him like I would be with a friend.
So if we think about that, then it gives us insight into how we're created to connect with God. It is okay if you're an introvert who enjoys being alone and journaling as your faith practice. It is okay if you're an extrovert who loves going on mission trips with 20 strangers to another country, if that is what makes you feel closest to God.
So saying God is delighted by how we connect with Him as we are because He's the one who made us that way. [00:21:16] And, yes, I think there are practices we're all called to, and I'm not saying to exclude those. But just to lean in more, to give yourself permission to lean in more to the spaces where you feel closest to God.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that gives so much freedom. I identify with resisting how I'm created to lean into that fellowship. I enjoy that so much, and it does produce the fruit of the Spirit. And yet I think there's this lie as well of, Oh, this is selfish. You should be doing a different way to connect with the Lord. So you're saying you think a lot of introverts experience that as well?
Holley Gerth: I think so. I think when it comes to being a person who loves God and loves others, we confuse quantity with quality. So we think, if I'm a loving person, if I'm a good Christian, then I have to have as many relationships as possible in my life and help as many people as I can and go to the ends of the earth. [00:22:21]
When I look at Scripture, I never see anything about quantity. I see God talking about quality, like 1 Corinthians 13, where we're told love is patient, love is kind. Those are things that we can do, whether we're with one person or whether we're with 1,000 people.
So encouraging introverts to say, stop picturing any kind of quantity when it comes to your relationship with God and your relationship with people and focus on quality, focus on loving who is in front of you in that moment, and don't worry about it, if you don't have as big of a group of people in your life as someone else might, that's not what you're wired for, and that's okay.
So I think, again, it's just saying, God delights in us when we reflect His image that He's placed within us. And we all do that a little bit differently. [00:23:21] And we need both. We need introverts and extroverts to be exactly who they are.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Thank you to today's sponsor, Samaritan Ministries. We know that God's love is steadfast and true. He cares for us as we are called to care for one another. Samaritan Ministries connects hundreds of thousands of Christians across the nation who care for one another through prayer, encouragement, and financial support for medical needs.
As a Samaritan member, when a healthcare need arises, you get to choose the doctor, hospital, and pharmacy that works best for you and your family. You also have access to resources that can help you choose a provider, price medical procedures, and get medical advice before you visit the doctor.
Each month, Samaritan members send their financial gift directly to a member who has a medical need. [00:24:20] They pray for them and they send a note of encouragement, all while reflecting God's love and care. Members then use the money they receive to pay their healthcare providers directly.
You can find comfort in the prayers, encouragement, and direct financial support from other members who strive to minister to all aspects of your healthcare need, spiritual, emotional, physical, and financial. New members are always welcome. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Laura Dugger: Holley, as you're describing this, it just makes me envision freedom and that you want to invite people to live in this freedom and grow closer to God. So will you take us back? What was the catalyst for choosing this as your book to write?
Holley Gerth: I would say this is a book that I've been preparing to write my whole life. I remember being in fourth grade. Actually, when I told my mom I was writing this book, she was like, "Of course you are. [00:25:23] In fourth grade, you did your science project on birth order and read Kevin Leman's birth order book and came up with an assessment to give all your friends and see if they matched up with the characteristics and advanced to regionals." And I was like, "Okay, I guess I did."
And I didn't hear the word "introvert" until I was in college. And it was one of those moments where I remember exactly where I was. Like I have this photograph in my mind of it. I was sitting on this old gray carpet in this building and campus ministry had a speaker come in to talk about personality and they said the word "introvert". And I realized for the first time I'm not the only one who feels this way or is wired this way or who would rather have a conversation with one person than be in a big group of people. All of these things.
So I started just learning and studying introversion and what that meant. [00:26:21] And back then there really wasn't a lot. It was really Susan Cain's Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking that came out in 2012 that made the conversation about introverts mainstream.
But I read that and every other book I could get my hands on and I just began to realize that there's this other side of the story to being an introvert that isn't told as often as I would like for it to be. We tend to define introversion by what's not. "I don't like small talk. I don't love big parties. I don't this or I can't that."
And that is not the full or even the most important part of the story of being an introvert. The most important story is introverts have specific strengths that our world needs more than ever before. That we are wired for connection, that we process in a way that is really valuable, that we have so much to bring to our friends and family and communities and churches and the world. [00:27:30]
And so I wanted to empower introverts to not think I need to change who I am, but instead, I want to fully embrace who I am. So that's a journey I've been on personally and that is what I've spent hours and hours and hours studying everything I can get my hands on about introverts from brain science to books to sending out a survey to my blog readers that over 2,500 people responded to.
So I've condensed all of that, my personal journey into this book and it has been transformational for me. And so I am excited for introverts to be able to learn about who they are and about people who love, lead, or share life with introverts to learn more about what that means if you happen to have an introvert in your world somewhere.
Laura Dugger: Well, I just want to say well done because your mission has certainly been accomplished. Now, will you describe how happiness can be different for introverts and extroverts? [00:28:34]
Holley Gerth: Yes. As I mentioned, we live in a culture that right now leans a little more extroverted. That actually hasn't been the case throughout all of history. It's actually not even true everywhere in the world right now.
For example, Finland is a more introverted culture overall and they also keep getting ranked as the happiest country in the world, which is interesting. But because of that, when we see images of happiness, like on commercials or places like that, they tend to look more extroverted.
So you think of the beer commercial where everybody's partying on the beach or we're all at a concert or we're going on a vacation on a cruise ship with all these people having adventures. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with leaning toward those adventures or big groups. It's just that that definition of happiness isn't a fit for everyone.
Because of our brain wiring at the extrovert experience of happiness looks more like excitement and enthusiasm. [00:29:40] Where for introverts, because of the acetylcholine that we favor, happiness looks more like calm and contentment.
And so if an introvert who is wired to feel at their very best when they are in situations where they can be calm and content is always seeing cultural messages that say happiness looks like being enthusiastic and excited, then they may start to question, what if I'm not really happy?
So what introverts need to know is you are happy. You are just differently happy. Your happiness just looks different. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
And so I challenge people to say, what are your happiness synonyms? For example, if there is a long list of happiness synonyms, which actually have in the book of words that people can choose from, extroverts might be more likely to circle enthusiastic, excited. [00:30:41] Introverts might be more likely to circle calm, content.
And so understanding that subtext to our happiness can really protect us from chasing what looks like happiness, but is actually not a great fit for who we are. We can get to a place in our lives where we're like, "I did everything I was supposed to do, I chased everything I was supposed to chase, I did all this outward stuff, and I'm not happy. What's wrong with me?" It's often that we have taken on a secondhand definition of happiness that just isn't a fit for us.
So I found this can be really clarifying for introverts, not only in obviously increasing their happiness but also giving them more clarity about what they really want to pursue in life.
Laura Dugger: I just want to respond with a few things, because that section was especially profound. I think you taught me that well-meaning extroverts can try and encourage introverts to experience fun the way they have fun or they experience it. [00:31:49] And introverts are probably feeling "I'm already happy. I'm just differently happy." So that was a huge realization.
But even bigger than that, my husband and I have been married for over 11 years and we've always prayed to continue getting to know each other better. Way back, even before we were married, he took the Myers-Briggs and tested as an extrovert. And then he's dropped some hints over time, like, "I might be an introvert."
I never fully bought into that until this chapter I was reading next to him. And I just paused and asked him to give me his definition of happiness. And he verbatim started listing the words in your introvert synonyms. So it was just this gateway to other conversations.
So due to your book, it was such an answer to that prayer to get to know each other better. [00:32:48] So I want to say thank you, because you helped us both realize, indeed, he identifies as an introvert.
Holley Gerth: Oh, I love that. And that's such a great point, that extroverts may be worried about an introvert in their life, and thinking, how can I help this person be happier? And they're actually good. So I love that that gave you insight into your marriage.
Laura Dugger: Yes, that was a shocking and awesome discovery. So the book has helped. You also shared that you battled depression and anxiety. And statistics show that many people do. So what would you say has helped you the most, especially as an introvert?
Holley Gerth: Introverts are actually a little more likely to struggle with depression and anxiety. It's not clear exactly why. But it looks from what they know to be related, again, to those nervous systems and brain pathways that are sort of taking everything in all the time. We're just sort of more responsive in certain ways. [00:33:48] And when we go through hard stuff, that can sort of turn into those things.
So that's part of my story. It has been my whole life. I started having stomach aches as a little 8-year-old in third grade. And they couldn't figure out what was wrong. Eventually, they just said stress, which now we know would be called anxiety. That's what was going on. I found that I needed to release any feeling of shame about having that be part of my story.
So if we think about the core parts of who we are, it's being on a continuum where on one side is a struggle and the other side is a superpower. And who we are kind of just neutrally is in the middle. So, for example, I have a more sensitive nervous system. That means as a struggle, I can deal with anxiety. As a superpower, I have a lot of empathy for other people. I'm really good at reading them, at engaging with their emotions, at understanding what's going on with them. [00:34:56]
And so I had always tried to get rid of my anxiety. But I realized the solution wasn't to do that. It was to learn how to move away from that struggle side and toward the superpower side. The first big step for me was saying, you know what, this is okay that I deal with this. This isn't weakness. It's not a spiritual failure. It's not something that I have to hide from other people or just try to get over. It's just sort of this part of who I am that I can actually use for good in some ways.
And I remember praying about it one day and I felt like God was like, "If you're a warrior standing in the middle of a battlefield and someone is shooting at you, what does that mean?" I was like, "Well, it just means that I'm a warrior." And I felt like He was like, Exactly.
So, for anyone who has these struggles, knowing it just means you're a warrior. It just means there are things that you have to fight sometimes. But it doesn't define your identity. [00:35:57] It doesn't define your destiny. It doesn't mean that you are less qualified to be used by God than anyone else. It actually means that you probably have some related gifts and strengths that he can use.
So, that has been freeing for me to just say, you know what, this is just part of my story. We all have those parts. I'm just going to lean into the parts that lead me towards strength instead of struggle.
Laura Dugger: I want to help people understand a part that's misunderstood with depression and anxiety. When well-intentioned people will throw a scripture passage at you, do not be anxious about tomorrow. And they use it in a difficult way. Are you tracking with me? Do you know what I mean?
Holley Gerth: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: What encouragement or clarity would you like to offer for what is truth and what is actually helpful?
Holley Gerth: Yeah. Well, I recently heard a podcast that talked about the benefits of anxiety. [00:36:57] So, people with anxiety can tend to, like I said, have more empathy, understanding different things. But then I thought, "I'm not allowed to be anxious because the Bible says, don't be anxious." And so, I got curious about what that word actually meant.
And when I looked into the biblical definition of anxiety, it is basically fear that comes from intentionally living independently of God's help. It's not the normal stuff we go through, like doubt or feeling distant from Him, or having struggles. It's not that. It's actually an intentional choice where you say, "No, God, I don't want you in my life. I don't want your help."
I mean, so someone's going to know if they're making that choice. I don't want someone to listen and think, Oh, I've had doubts or I'm in a hard place where I don't feel close to God. That's not what it is either. It's that intentional choice.
So, that is very different than biological anxiety, which is just related to our fight or flight response. We are created with a system that has fight or flight for our survival. [00:38:00] Sometimes it's a little overactive, which means we have biological anxiety. But that is not at all the same as biblical anxiety.
And so when you treat biological anxiety as if it is biblical anxiety, that is what causes the guilt and shame. Because biological anxiety is not even able to just fix itself by hearing a scripture. That's not how it works. We're going to need to talk with our doctor, see a counselor, find other resources, maybe figure out how we need to do practical things like eat and sleep. This is mostly about our bodies.
That's what I would say to people who tend to confuse the two or want to tell people with anxiety, just get over it, that there are two distinct kinds. That this person probably feels anxious even when they are praying. So, it is not biblical anxiety that they're experiencing. They're not violating that command to not be anxious. They are experiencing biological anxiety, which is part of being human sometimes. [00:39:09]
And God gets that because He was one for 33 years. He wants us to say, You know what? I don't like how I'm feeling right now. I'm having a hard time. I mean, you look at Psalms, it's full of that. You know, there's a verse that says, "When anxiety was great within me, you brought consolation to my soul."
And so, knowing that we can take that experience to God and He's not going to condemn us. He's going to say, "I get it because I designed humans and I know sometimes this happens. And I will be with you in it. I've also provided a lot of resources. Again, like doctors and counselors and practical helps and supportive people for you to be able to deal with this." But we don't have to carry shame or guilt over it.
And so, instead just saying to that person who's struggling, you are fighting something hard. I am with you in this battle. What would be most helpful to you right now? That is the kind of support that I think actually makes a difference. [00:40:11]
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredibly helpful. Could you just one more time repeat that biblical definition of anxiety?
Holley Gerth: Yeah. So biblical anxiety, when we're told, don't be anxious, that anxiety comes from deliberately saying, I am going to live completely independently from God. I don't want this help. I don't want that connection, which leads to fear. And so, that is more what we're talking about. And that is very different than biological anxiety, which is just our fight or flight response being a little bit overreactive at times.
Laura Dugger: This is incredible to be having this conversation now, because this week, a verse... It's from Deuteronomy 29, and it's just tucked away in the middle of this greater story. But there's someone who is saying unwisely, saying this, I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way. [00:41:10] But then what happens, it says right after that is, they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry.
To me, it was just speaking of times that I want to stubbornly persist in my own way, be independent, not be dependent on the Lord. I think it kind of ties in because that can be a sin issue when He gently brings that up. That is something that can be repented of that's very different from biological anxiety. So thank you for clarifying.
One other thing that you mentioned was that you started experiencing this around age eight, which we're finding that's about the age where depression and anxiety can set in. Is that right?
Holley Gerth: Yes. Again, they don't know exactly why this is. But I remember sitting at a writer's retreat with a group of very successful women whose names you would recognize who write and speak and have these far-reaching ministries. [00:42:10]
And we started telling stories about when we were little girls and several of us said, At age eight I started dealing with anxiety and depression. And I think there's something about that highly creative, sensitive, empathetic, often introverted wiring that just comes with that vulnerability.
So when I have moms describe a kiddo like that to me and say, what do I do? I say, help them understand this is connected to some of their superpowers. So being anxious means they may deal with fear. It also probably means they know exactly when one of their friends is hurting and they are the first to respond.
So helping them understand those two sides of it. Yes, you have this struggle. We're going to help you figure it out. But look at this other side of it, that because you're created this way, you also have some really amazing strengths. [00:43:10]
And so just keeping them out of that shame cycle where they think something's wrong with me to this is just a part of your story. There's one side to it that can be hard. There's another side to it that can be really powerful and beautiful. And we're just going to get you everything that you need to be able to lean more into that strength side.
Laura Dugger: Over 100 of you have given us a five-star rating online. Thank you. Also, thanks to your help sharing these episodes and reposting our content on social media.
The Savvy Sauce has grown to being streamed in all 50 United States and over 100 countries around the world. If you want to partner with us and share the joy of The Savvy Sauce, will you consider becoming a patron today? You can join the club for as little as $2 per month.
And in addition to some fun perks, you will be helping to spread our mission, which is this. We exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled to overflowing. [00:44:11] Please consider joining today by visiting TheSavvySauce.com and clicking on our "Patreon" tab.
Like you had alluded to earlier, this entire message is not just for introverts, but for those who love, lead, or share life with them. And so what can you tell extroverts that will strengthen their relationship with introverts?
Holley Gerth: I'd say one thing is when an introvert is being quiet, it means most of the time they're content. And so I think extroverts can worry, Oh, my introvert is being quiet. Maybe they're upset with me. Maybe they're bored. Maybe they need something that I'm not giving them. Usually, it just means they're content. So that's one little insight.
And then I would say a question that works well for both introverts and extroverts is just going to the people in your life and saying, how can I love you well right now? [00:45:10] Because we naturally tend to love others in the ways that make us feel loved.
But if you're an extrovert introvert pair, then there's not going to be a good match up there. And both people involved can be doing everything they possibly can think of to love the other person well. And if they're different, then it may not be coming across in the way you intend.
You know, extroverts may overwhelm introverts unintentionally and introverts may withdraw to give their extrovert space, which ends up feeling like they don't want to be together. You know, there's just so many opportunities for misunderstanding. And so just saying, Okay, I'm going to set aside what I'm assuming about what makes this person feel loved. And I'm just going to ask what would make you feel loved right now, even if it's really different than what you would say.
And then I think also just giving introverts permission to have that alone time that they need. And knowing that it's essential that most introverts I know try to push themselves past their limits because they don't want other people to think that they're being selfish or uncaring. [00:46:22]
So if you can help your introvert get that time guilt-free, then they are going to be a happier, healthier, more engaged person when you are together. And so there may not be as much quantity as time together, but I can guarantee if you help your introvert get that time, the quality of your time together will increase.
Laura Dugger: Because you've written on this, what would you say it means for each of us to live our powerful purpose?
Holley Gerth: I think living our powerful purpose means understanding who God created us to be and then having the courage to live that out. Again, starting with that self-awareness and then listening to what we learn and taking the steps that God puts on our heart to live that out. And so our purpose is unique to us.
And really, our purpose always comes back to loving God first, loving others as ourselves. [00:47:22] We really are called to love. The beautiful thing is we all just do that a little bit differently.
Laura Dugger: Holley, this book has been incredible. This interview has been incredible, and I'm sure others are feeling the same way. So if somebody wants to follow up, where can they find you online and how can they get their hands on this resource of yours?
Holley Gerth: Yes, I would love to connect. If you go to Holleygirth.com/introverts, that's where you will find all the introvert goodies. Like I mentioned, I have a one-minute quiz on there where you can find out what percent introvert you are because everyone has a little introvert in them.
You can also find out how to get the book. And if you preorder it before September 15th, when it releases, you will also get a free course called Seven Ways to Thrive as an Introvert that I am so excited about, an Introvert Strengths Assessment and the audiobook version of The Powerful Purpose of Introverts Free. [00:48:24]
I think that's an amazing deal. So I'm trying to get everybody to go take advantage of that so they can have it before the book comes out.
Laura Dugger: Wow, those are some incredible perks. And I hope everybody can take advantage of it today. Again, thank you for that resource.
I just have one final question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, Holley, what is your savvy sauce?
Holley Gerth: One super practical thing I'm loving right now is my weighted blanket. So weighted blankets are what they sound like. They have weight and they are naturally calming to our nervous systems and our bodies. So I think especially introverts, but also extroverts with all the things going on in our world right now, a weighted blanket is a great investment. I sleep with mine. I sometimes use it just hanging out on the couch. [00:49:23] But if we can help our bodies in practical ways like that, I think it helps empower us to do the things that matter most to us.
Laura Dugger: That is an awesome savvy sauce. I have heard about weighted blankets, never experienced one before. But when I looked online, there were so many options. If somebody wants to try it out today, do you have a recommended brand or type?
Holley Gerth: I would search for, like if you're on Amazon, Sherpa weighted blanket. So that means it's super soft material. I like that too. So that's my favorite kind. They're really pretty also. That also happens to help you have less anxiety and stress and calm down, which I think in the midst of everything in our world right now, we all need whatever will help with that.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's incredible. Like I said, we'll link to all of this in the show notes and our resources tab. Holley, you've just given such a lovely taste of what your book has to offer. [00:50:26] And I think that you've really encouraged us to embrace who God created each of us uniquely to be. You are genuine and skilled and just this delightful mix of confident and humble. And I'm very appreciative of your time today. So thank you for being my guest.
Holley Gerth: Thank you for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:51:33]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:52:38]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:53:39]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Aug 24, 2020
Monday Aug 24, 2020
*This message includes adult themes and is not intended for little ears*
108. Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
**Transcription Below**
Hebrews 10:23 (NIV) “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.”
Dave Carder serves as Pastor of Counseling Ministries at First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, CA.
His specialty is Adultery Recovery and Prevention for which he has appeared on numerous media outlets including The Oprah Winfrey Network, Discovery Health, and The Learning Channel, The Tony Robbins Passion Project, Ladies Home Journal, USA Today, The Counseling Connection, and various other magazines and journals. He has taught at various universities and seminaries world wide, and has done training for both the US Navy and Army.
He is the author or co-author of Torn Asunder: Recovering from an Extramarital Affair, Close Calls: What Adulterers Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage, and Unlocking Your Family Patterns: Finding Freedom from a Hurtful Past. He holds the Michigan Limited License for Psychology and the California Marital and Family Therapy license, and has graduate degrees in Biblical Literature and Counseling Psychology.
Dave and his wife, Ronnie, have been married for 49 years, and have four adult children and eight grandchildren. More info is available at www.DaveCarder.com
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Anatomy of an Affair by Dave Carder
Torn Asunder Workbook by Dave Carder
Schedule an appointment with Dave Carder HERE
Dave Carder’s Website, Including FREE video series on recovering from extramarital affair
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.
Dave Carter is a pastor, author, and therapist. He's also the best professional I can think of to educate us on infidelity.
Dave is going to share his years of research with us, as he's going to let us know some shocking reasons why couples cheat. But more importantly, he's going to share how redemption is possible. [00:01:18]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dave.
Dave Carder: Well, I'm looking forward to this. I always enjoy these kind of things.
Laura Dugger: You have spent your career educating and counseling couples on marital unfaithfulness. So I'm curious, how did God use your past pain to become your purpose?
Dave Carder: Well, it's a great story. At least on this end of it, it's a great story. So back when I was a youth pastor in the late 70s, pretty fresh out of seminary, my senior pastor ran off with another woman in the church.
This was the second time this has happened to me. I'd only worked with three pastors. So this time I responded a little differently. I immediately drove to the nearest airport, bought a ticket, basically, to a Dallas-Fort Worth area that I had figured out where he had gone, and confronted him.
Stayed a week in a hotel overlooking the U-Haul truck store where he was supposed to bring back the truck, and he never showed up. [00:02:22] I got a call on Saturday from the church back in Ohio saying, "You've got to get home. This place is in a mess," etc.
So basically, I figured out what had happened was I had beat him to that location several thousand miles down there. But before I left, I went down and talked to the guy at the U-Haul truck store and showed him a picture of my pastor, and wrote my phone number and name on the back. And I said, "He's going to bring the truck back here. So when he does, please call me and get an address. I don't care what you tell him, just get an address."
So on Monday morning, back in Ohio, after I'd flown home, I got a phone call from him about 10 o'clock, and he starts whispering. He says, "He's in my office." And I said, "Well, how do you know it's him?" He said, "He's got on the same shirt in the picture as he has on in my office. I know it's him." I said, "I know he's desperate for money. So you tell him you're going to give him a rebate. You need an address to mail the rebate to."
Sure enough, he calls me back about 10 minutes, has an address. I get back on the plane, take a friend with me, fly back to Dallas-Fort Worth, get a rental car, drive the house, knock on the front door, and the single mom in whose home apartment I'd been having Bible studies for two years, for all the boys in the apartment complex, answers the door and screams. [00:03:35]
So to make a long story short, we took our senior pastor, me in the front, to the park and tried to persuade him to come back to his family. He said, "No, he wasn't going to do that." Took him home, back to the house there they were renting, prayed with him.
I started sobbing when my friend said, "Dave, lead us in prayer. I just started sobbing." My friend had to drive us back to the airport, and I cried the whole way there. As we turned into the Hertz rental car, I looked over at my friend Paul, and I said, "Paul, when I get home, I'm going back to graduate school, and I'm going to figure out why guys do this. Because I've had two experiences in a very brief ministry career." That was in '77, and I've been working ever since at trying to figure this out.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. I mean, tragic circumstances to start with, but it sounds like God's really redoing it in your life.
Dave Carder: I would never have chosen to be a therapist or a counselor. [00:04:35]
Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love to focus on your most recent book titled Anatomy of an Affair. I want to begin by this quote of yours, where you say, "My hope is this book will motivate couples to be more alert to potential marital disaster, understand the warning signs of an affair, and help couples strengthen the marriage bond that has kept them together."
So let's discuss each of those components, beginning with being more alert to potential marital disaster. Why do you recommend couples never say this could never happen to them?
Dave Carder: Well, you know, Laura, this is not normal behavior, but it is extremely common behavior. So what happens, especially in the Christian community, when this does occur, it shocks most of the participants. They never believed this could have happened. They never would have. They never would have planned for it. It came out of the blue. [00:05:35]
You know, I was in a research team for a number of years, and we surveyed 4,000 pastors, and the language they used to describe their inappropriate behavior was blindsided, bushwhacked, had the rug pulled out from underneath me, never saw it coming, etc.
So that tells us that there is some kind of a subversive, under-awareness, development, inclination towards having an affair. And you have to be honest, straightforward, forthright, and very self-aware if you're going to protect yourself in this culture.
Actually, the coronavirus experience we're having right now is the perfect petri dish in which affairs can develop. First-time affairs, and I would say all of them, are all about comfort and distraction. Well, I want to tell you, we know additional new stressors in a marriage, like financial reversals, environmental changes, health changes, relationship changes, major career changes. [00:06:36] All of those contribute to the need for comfort and distraction.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So you're saying circumstances like this where couples are under extreme stress, is that when they're likely to cheat?
Dave Carder: Oh yeah, very much so. They don't go looking for this kind of relief, but this is a perfect firestorm, so to speak, because they both need comfort. And oftentimes, during high-stress experiences in a marriage, one runs out of gas to care for the other, or needs to go back to work to keep them afloat, or just needs longer to process what they've been going through.
We don't all process everything at the same speed. So that difference is often in the time period, in the time frame, when these kinds of behaviors begin to happen.
Laura Dugger: Are there any other common reasons that couples do cheat?
Dave Carder: Oh yeah, oh yeah. We know, for instance, that there are certain high-risk periods in your life, in everybody's life, when they are more inclined. [00:07:42] Now, these risk factors I'm going to talk about, they don't make anybody do anything like this. But the big question for the spouse who's been betrayed is, why did you do this?
Well, the answer to that question, why, is usually a cluster of circumstances that eroded the other person's boundaries and made them more vulnerable. It didn't make them do it, it just made them more vulnerable.
So we look for that cluster of circumstances. For instance, about 50% of all first-time affairs in America happen during pregnancy or the first year after delivery. Now, why in the heck is that true?
Well, as you begin to think about it, it makes all the sense in the world. The wife's body changes, there's hormonal changes, she's more tired, she might have a lot of nausea in the first trimester, maybe isn't very interested in sexual activity and lovemaking. Then she's got this little baby afterwards, she's sleep-deprived, and she's trying to balance this baby and maybe a career. [00:08:43]
Hubby can oftentimes feel very neglected. That doesn't mean he went looking, I just said he was more vulnerable to somebody looking for him.
Laura Dugger: With all of your research, just a few follow-up questions. Do you still find that that's true today, that it's more commonly the male spouse, or are those numbers evening out between males and females?
Dave Carder: Basically, depending on what research study and frequency study you're reading, somewhere around 60% to 67% of all males acknowledge this, and somewhere between 50% and 55% of all females in America acknowledge getting involved in this.
Laura Dugger: Then also, just because at the beginning you had talked about seeing this twice in ministry, do you see this vulnerability where people are more susceptible when they are in ministry, or especially in a head pastoral role?
Dave Carder: Well, what I would say I see more of today is when two people in ministry share the same ministry, and they're not married to each other. [00:09:48] So let's just say they serve on the worship team together, or they serve in children's ministry, or the two of them work in homeless encampments, or they do this or that together. So anytime you share a ministry with another person, you share a heart passion that you and your spouse might not share.
Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do ministry outside of your relationship with your spouse, but it does mean that if you're in a ministry that you are really passionate about with somebody else other than your spouse, you really have to be on guard.
Laura Dugger: You give such a balanced approach, because also what I hear you saying is not, if you're in ministry, this will happen to you. You're just sharing what some high-risk times or situations would be. Also, are there any high-risk behaviors that make couples more vulnerable to an affair?
Dave Carder: Oh, absolutely. Part of who we are and part of what happened to us when we first started dating, I just tell you this, this is such a kick. [00:10:52] One of my best friends and colleagues, he's my age, and he just got remarried this last week, okay, to another very good friend of mine.
Now, we're talking people in the high-risk category for coronavirus. I mean, they're above 65, both of them. But they were acting like giddy teenagers whenever they were together. I just got the biggest kick out of it.
Now, that kind of infatuation is what happens when we first start dating and maybe the first couple of years of marriage, etc. But life wears that out and drains that off.
So we often yearn for those kind of times when we have a mood alteration, when we see the person or we can't wait to be with them or we want to get out of this functioning role we have where we try to be efficient and effective. You know, falling in love is totally contrary to being efficient and effective. And it's that kind of stuff you have to go back to. [00:11:52]
But, you know, the good thing... we know, for instance, that one of the risk categories is to get in touch with an old girlfriend or boyfriend. It's huge on Facebook. I mean, it has developed its own class of infidelity. But the point is that kind of affair tells us that it's good news for us who haven't been involved in it but who had a great dating period with their spouse and in the first couple of years it just were dynamic or the first four or five before the kids came.
Because those feelings, those feelings you had for your spouse when you were sleeping together after being newly married, those feelings are still in your brain and you got to go find them. One of my goals in working with every one of my couples is I'm going to help you find that infatuation that you've lost. If you had it, we'll find it. It's still stored in your brain.
Laura Dugger: Let's camp there for a little while. What would the process look like? [00:12:53] How do you help these couples go back to that part in their brain?
Dave Carder: Well, you don't start there because there's been a lot of betrayal and pain in the process. We try to answer the why question through the first half of the therapy process, which includes biographical things.
Now, one of the things I always say, affairs are always about attachment and all affairs began in infancy because infancy is all about attachment to a bonding, to a mother, a primary caregiver.
So we always look at attachment issues in childhood and to primary parents and the nuclear family and the security and everything else in the family because many times affairs go way back. They actually started, the seeds of destruction were sown when they were just a kid.
And then we have to go through the family of origin dynamic and we have to explore the structure that they build into the marriage and the marital style. [00:13:57] We look at the type of marriage because some marriages are more prone to infidelity than others.
Then we look at the satisfaction history. Satisfaction history is one of four histories that are really important to understand about this couple. High level satisfaction, marriages with high level satisfaction can have an affair, but that's the exception and not the normal expectation.
So we look at all those things first and then we go through a full disclosure and a forgiveness process. That's really kind of stage two. Then stage three, we start the reattachment process. Can we put this couple back together well?
And it's at that process that we begin to explore your good history, eight great experiences, kind of reviewing how each of you felt about the beginning of the relationship. Maybe you were missing some of that, being the focus of each other, that narcissistic, egocentric I can't get enough of you feeling that we have when we're newly dating or newly married. [00:15:03] So if that was ever there, we'll find it.
Laura Dugger: How long would you say this process takes from maybe the first time they're walking in and they've just found out about the affair to get to this level of the process that you just explained?
Dave Carder: Well, if this is a first-time affair and it's in one of those categories other than category three, which is a hidden sexual addiction, that's what happens there is going to require more treatment. But at class one, two, four, or five, basically if there's a good history, and we say you don't have to have a lot of good history, but if 20% of your marital history is rated highly satisfying by both of you, simultaneous, in the same time zone and contiguous, it doesn't have any downturns in it, it's pretty high, straight through, 20%. That means one year for every five you will have 92% chance of saving this marriage. [00:16:03]
So you have to see if you can find that and start talking about it and have them sit and share and you got to build skills. So basically I see couples 12 to 15 times, one hour a week, full hour. I tell them, Each one of you are going to give one hour a week to this relationship too.
The wife is going to do an hour's worth of talking exercises with the husband listening, and the husband is going to do an hour worth of work talking exercises with the wife listening. And you're going to do that at home in three 20-minute segments. That way each of you will give an hour and I'll give an hour.
And I'm not going to do this if you don't do it. This is your marriage. I got my own marriage to worry about. I don't need yours to worry about. So you need to put an equal amount of effort in. We put three hours a week in it, 45 hours later we usually have a pretty good outcome.
Laura Dugger: Wow. You're such an expert in all of this that I have to slow it down and go back. There's so many follow-up questions.
Dave Carder: I can talk a lot about this.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I find it to be fascinating. [00:17:04] You had mentioned that certain couples are maybe more predisposed to cheat. I can't remember how you worded it, but what type of couples do you mean?
Dave Carder: Well, there's all kinds of factors in there, but I'll give you a couple. For instance, we know there's personality disorders that are based on attachment injuries, like a borderline personality or a narcissistic personality disorder. Those kinds of people are going to have to work through some individual issues if they're ever really going to save this marriage, turn it around, and make it good.
We have people, especially today, they come in, men and women, who are involved in pornography use and have been exposed to it since a child. Or they're adults who have a molest history that they've never really identified. There's this sexual compulsivity.
Sometimes it's just suddenly surfaced again. Sometimes it's comorbid with alcoholism or prescription drug use or pot smoking. [00:18:06] So those kinds of other struggles don't really give a clean presentation. I mean, there's going to be some individual work required.
Laura Dugger: Okay, and then you had also mentioned a type three affair. So what are all of the categories of affairs?
Dave Carder: Okay, we often talk about a one-night stand. The single experience or maybe the single weekend experience takes place at a conference or maybe at a business training meeting or something of that nature.
Well, let me give you an illustration. The first four classes of sexual betrayal are all found in the Bible. That's what I love about the Bible. The Bible is really a great tutorial on human nature.
So the biblical illustration there is David and Bathsheba. They had no relationship. They'd never dated. They'd never seen each other, never talked before. There was just this sexual experience and that was it. That's kind of what happens in that. [00:19:06] Alcohol is often a part of that. People drink too much wine at a supper meal and go to each other's rooms and get in trouble.
The class two is where there's emotional involvement. They have been friends for a long period of time. They might be colleagues at work. So they work together, serve together. You know, the literature often talks about the workaday wife. She often knows more about this man's life and his practices and his skill set than the wife does. So this friendship can develop over years and be in existence for many years prior to it ever being sexual. So we even have biblical illustrations of that kind of stuff.
But class three has nothing to do with the marriage. In other words, the spouse who acted out sexually would have done this no matter who they married. This is not about the marriage. This is about an individual issue. And so we say that person needs to develop sobriety and they need to have some individual therapy, figuring out the contributing factors to this. [00:20:10]
I will often say to my guys, "You know, as we begin to talk about this and we talk about earliest sexual exposure and memories and fantasies... and I don't do the individual work much at all. I usually try to send them somewhere else because I don't want to work harder than I'm already working with couples, more couples.
So they often will go to an intensive or something like that and they'll figure out this is all about me. I've been doing this for 20 years. I often say to him, you know, you never really had a chance. And I asked him if they have a son, if they've ever had a son or they have a grandson. So your grandson's five years old.
Okay, well, next time you will see your little grandson playing somewhere in a playground with other kids, you go watch him. You go watch him and think about that little boy being exposed to sexual activity. That little boy sitting at the base of his mother's hotel bed while she turns tricks right there above him. [00:21:11] Or you watch him and think about him sitting in front of pornography that he's found in the bathroom.
Sometimes those little kids just don't have much chance. And sex becomes the source of comfort. But it's compulsive. And it's not about the wife. It's not about the wife being a better lover. It's not about her being more sexual. It's not about her initiating. It's not about her. She didn't cause it, can't change it, and she won't cure it no matter what she does. So that's class three.
Class four is what we call an add-on affair. An add-on affair happens in good marriages. But it meets a singular need that this individual has that can't or hasn't been met in the marriage. Now, I'm going to give you an illustration here in just a second of that. But many times it is a cluster of circumstances and timeframes and health issues and relationship changes and job demands and everything else. [00:22:20]
It kind of brings this marriage down, so to speak. It's an add-on affair. But it's not a relationship in the sense of sneaking off with each other, phone calling, texting each other all the time, buying gifts, going to lunch together.
This add-on affair has very narrow practices. They only see each other in the shared environment that they both enjoy. They never call during the week. They never check in. They might see each other once a month at a volleyball thing.
For instance, I'm not a dancer. My wife loves to dance. But one thing I'm not going to do, I'm not going to encourage her to go to a dance club. And we took dance lessons on cruises. I mean, maybe eight or ten cruises. And it got to a place where it was ruining my cruise. I'd get sick at this. I just can't do this. So I dread going.
That would be the kind of illustration. She'd get involved, maybe dancing with somebody, dance partner, etc. [00:23:21] Over time, they build this relationship, practicing dance, etc, and pretty soon, it becomes inappropriate. So that's an illustration of that.
The last class is an emotional friendship with old girlfriends or boyfriends. That only became available in 1995. So when you go back on the internet and find them. The thing about that, it's important to remember, we never, ever forget.
Adolescent music, sports teams, great experiences in high school and college, dances. In fact, unless you were promiscuous, most of us could list every person we ever kissed really passionately. You don't forget. And so this gets triggered in your brain. All that infatuation is stored in your brain. And it'll get triggered.
I have this saying we say all the time. [00:24:21] If you stay in touch with an old girlfriend or boyfriend for 30 days via the internet, you will begin to think you married the wrong person because your spouse doesn't make you feel like this. And if you stay in touch with them another 30 days, you'll begin to try to find ways to meet with them and have sex with them. It's 0 to 60.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So that shows the danger so clearly. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity.
Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. [00:25:24]
They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, Welcome to Sam Lemans. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today.
Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.
Learn more at their website, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. You said that there are Bible stories that illustrate different ones. David and Bathsheba. What are some other examples?
Dave Carder: Well, the sexual addiction one is Eli's sons. [00:26:21] They chose women out of the line to the temple where they're going to offer sacrifice. They took them into another tent, had sex with them, and turned them over. There was no relationship.
And God told Eli, He said, "You've got to stop those boys from doing that." And he wouldn't. So God killed the two sons, and God killed Eli prematurely. Then I was at a pastor's conference presenting how good marriages... this add-on concept, where good marriages can have infidelity. I said, "I don't have a biblical illustration of this."
One of the pastors, four or five hundred of them in South Florida said, "How about Hagar and Abraham?" That met a need. Abraham built a great relationship with her to the point that he would not kick her out of the home until God actually intervened. But when little Isaac was born, his 13-year-old half-brother knew at that point life forever was different for him.
And he started picking on his little baby brother of a day or two. Sarah saw it and said, "It's either her or me. Get her out of here." [00:27:24] So Abraham finally did. And those two brothers, half-brothers, had been fighting, and they're since fighting for 4,000 years. And they will keep fighting. They just will.
See, I think I left one of them out. Class two is Samson and Delilah. They never had sex, as far as we know. But the picture we have of him in Scripture is his head is in her lap. But he is so addicted to her, that even though he knows she's trying to kill him, he cannot stay away from her. And he keeps going back to her. And that's the class two, the strong emotional attachment.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible to hear it, even in biblical times. What other satisfaction ratings are important?
Dave Carder: Well, there's four histories. We need to know their personal biographical story in somewhat detail. Looking for abuse, which would create an elevated need for comfort and demand, and distraction. We want to look at their family of origin history. [00:28:29]
We don't know why, but infidelity runs in family trees. It is a strong indicator that you are very vulnerable. I don't care anything about you being a Christian or anything else. If your dad or mom had affairs, you are predisposed. There's all kinds of emotional reasons for that, if we had time to explore.
Then the third one is their satisfaction history together, which is kind of how happy we were.
Then the fourth component that we want to look at is, what does their marriage over time look like? We're not talking about satisfaction, but we're talking about time together. Have they been able to put each other first? Have they been able to teach their kids that your mom or your dad is more important than you are in a certain sense of the word? You're going to leave here in 20 years, but we're going to hang out for the next 60. [00:29:26] So we've got to make this thing work.
I mean, has that been the emphasis? And what has been that attachment level that they put together between the two of them? So those histories are all real important.
Laura Dugger: If you've been around The Savvy Sauce for a while, you have heard our invitation to join our support team of patrons. Patreon is a platform created for the community to financially support people who offer creative content.
Our team gladly spends a lot of time and money to produce episodes that we're excited to share. But the reality is, this is an expensive endeavor. We would be so grateful if you would think about what role you could play to support us.
It's super easy to join with only a few clicks. As you visit thesavvysauce.com, click the "Patreon" tab, and then click "Join Patron here". We hope you're rewarded for your generosity. Now that we've covered a lot of the dangers and high-risk opportunities, on the other side, what safeguards should be put in place to protect our marriages from inappropriate relationships? [00:30:35]
Dave Carder: Well, this is a hard thing. Let me kind of identify a few of those. When we get ready to try to reattach couples, this is the process we go through.
The first exercise in that process is a whole series of sensate focus exercises. I often say to my couples, we're going to put you back together exactly like you found each other and put together yourselves in the first place, okay? So I'll often say to the wife, Let's say it's Betty and Tom. I'm just making that up. So I say, "Betty, if Tom had grabbed your breast on the first date, you probably never would have seen him again." "Oh, yeah, I never would have seen him again."
"But over time, you started holding hands and you started snuggling up together. He put his arm around your shoulders. You might even, as you walked the boardwalk, stuck your hand in his back pocket as you walked down the boardwalk. You became more familiar with each other physically and you became more familiar with each other emotionally, sharing stories, information you never shared with anybody else." [00:31:38] Well, that's a very important set of exercises.
Masters and Johnson and Kaplan and Berkeley Sex Therapy Group have all given us a lot of touching exercises that build attachment. They're called sensate focus exercises. My couples have to do about 30 days of those while they're doing other exercises, 20 minutes a pop.
In the book, the Berkeley Sex Therapy script list that I use, with their permission, that helps you kind of qualify the kind of touching exercises you're doing together. I mean, this is work, okay? But it's also a lot of fun because sensate focus exercises calm anxiety, lower anger, and build attachment, all simultaneous.
So, the next set of exercises is the one you're going to identify the eight great experiences in your relationship, the eight great memories. You have eight best memories you have during the dating period and even in the marriage. [00:32:41] Each one of you lists a private list of eight items. Do it in pencil because you'll be erasing them. You only get eight.
And then you merge that list of most happily married couples. And remember, couples have some level of satisfaction and happiness or they wouldn't come to a therapist after an affair has happened. They have some hope in saving this.
So, we take a look at those eight greats and the ones that match, we put those down first and then she gets... let's say they have three. She gets four, he gets five, six, seven, eight, finish it off.
That list of eight shared experiences needs to be replicated, repeated, same season of the year, same event, same experience as much as possible as the original. This is the best old stuff you have between the two of them. So, we build that eight greats.
The next one is love languages. Most people are familiar with love languages. Finding out how best to show love to your spouse. [00:33:42]
Then the fourth reattachment exercise is what we call a compliment prayer list that comes directly out of research. Two behavioral psychologists, PhD husband, and wife team spent 30 years on this exercise measuring it across cultures, genders, ages. It's highly effective. And it's a behavior modification process.
So, I added a prayer exercise to it. And so, every day for 30 days, you find something you appreciate about your spouse, a behavior, a comment, something they do, how they look, a value they have. I don't care what it is. And you put it down and then you list two or three sentences about why you like that and why it's important to you. And you write it in a notebook. And every night, you thank God in your spouse's presence how much you like this quality about your spouse and what it means to you. You do 30 straight days. [00:34:40]
That behavior modification couple that did this work, they did pre, post, six-month, and five-year follow-ups. This is an amazing game-changer. Most of us are starved for more admiration and affirmation. And that's what this provides. So, those are the first four. I could go on and on.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. It's not only practical, but you're talking about inviting in the power of God and the Holy Spirit into this. I can just imagine hearts being softened and couples turning toward each other in this process.
Dave Carder: That's a good point because you got to remember this couple has already done at least 20 knee-to-knee exercises for 20 minutes a pop. One talking, the other listening. They've also already done 20 non-sexual touching exercises where one gives and the other receives for 20 minutes. [00:35:41]
So, many therapists get in trouble because they try to do these attachment exercises before they've done all the other work. You don't start there. That's the end. That's the icing on the cake, so to speak.
Laura Dugger: Backing it up a little bit, for any couples wondering, what are some warning signs that there may be marital unfaithfulness in our spouse?
Dave Carder: Well, the first thing I would look for, and this is what I tell my gals or guys that call me on the phone afraid their spouse is having an affair. Okay, so when were you first afraid? So, they choose a point in time, a date, and time.
I say, "Okay, you go back two years, and you find all the major stressors. I want you to make a list of all the major stressors that your spouse has gone through in those two years period." Financial reversals, maybe a death or two, maybe a move that you went through, a career job or threatening experience, a financial reversal, bankruptcy, lost a house. [00:36:42]
Just make a list of all the stressors. And if you come up with more than five, then you probably have a legitimate concern because all of us going through those kinds of things need comfort and distraction. And it's just so easy to listen to or learn to lean on somebody else when you're feeling that huge need yourself. That's a big part. So, what kind of story are they bringing to this concern? That's a big part of what I want to know.
Then also, the person will often begin to have motivation for all kinds of changes. They'll start working out or they'll start dressing differently or they'll start doing their hair differently. You'll just see behavioral changes. You'll sense a greater change in energy sometimes in people doing this.
Now, if your spouse really decides to whip themselves into shape, don't be accusing them of having a girlfriend or a boyfriend. That gets you into trouble, okay? [00:37:46] You might just sense a kind of a distraction. Maybe they're on the phone more than usual. Maybe they're texting more commonly.
This texting thing is amazing. Habitual texting is a mood-altering experience. I've had clients who've actually been fired from jobs not because they had any erotic textual exchange but because they had too much textual exchange with co-workers and it was happening while they were driving and it began to interfere with their production, so they got fired. So, any kind of a mood-altering experience like that can be very dangerous.
And then I say to my gals, especially the young moms, if you really suspect that your husband's having an affair, you get two choices. You choose which one you want. If you would do something different, if you knew he was having an affair, then you ought to pursue it with everything you have, including hiring a private investigator. [00:38:50]
If, on the other hand, you could not do anything different than you're doing now because you might have a little baby, you might have small children at home, you might not have a career that you could fall back upon, you couldn't do anything, then I would tell you don't do anything. Because most affairs flame out in 18 to 24 months.
Nobody can keep up that kind of passionate exchange without having all kinds of emotional and financial and personal upheaval in their life. They just can't do it.
Laura Dugger: And so you're saying eventually...
Dave Carder: Yeah. Use the next few months to get yourself ready to leave if you need to leave. So, if you can't do anything... And that happens all the time when some gals, they just can't think of a little baby, they don't have parental support, maybe they don't have any family out here, maybe they don't have a career, they don't work right now, they're a stay-at-home mom with two or three little ones. Okay, get yourself ready. Don't do anything right now. [00:39:52]
Laura Dugger: Then for the couple that maybe is walking through this painful process currently, what hope would you like to offer them?
Dave Carder: I would say this to them. Don't stay married out of duty or obligation. I would say to the husband, if he's had the affair, don't stay married to her if she can't forgive you. Living with a spouse who can't forgive is like pretty hellacious living.
So what needs to happen, if you're going to stay together, you need to re-choose each other. And you need to be with each other because you want to be with each other. Sex breaks a marriage. Illicit sex does. And there's never a statute of limitations on when, as I look at the wife, you'll have to decide. You don't have to decide in 90 days. But there's no statute of limitations. Maybe two years here, after giving this your best shot, it still can't seem to work or you just don't think your spouse is being truthful and they're still lying, well, then maybe then you need to consider another option. [00:40:55]
But I say to both of my couples. You need to give this your best shot because you need to look in your children's eyes when they're at their life's greatest moments, graduations, marriages, birth of your grandkids, etc. and you need to be able to look at them in the eye and say, "We gave it everything we had before we leave."
But if you stay married out of duty or obligation or stay married because you think you should, you should pay for this, etc., all you're going to do is teach your kids how to have a really crappy marriage. And we got a lot of those running around.
Laura Dugger: Dave, let's address all of the couples, both those who have or have not experienced an affair. How can everyone listening strengthen their marriage bond?
Dave Carder: The best marriages are the ones who practice the kind of practices that you would practice if you were having an affair. So you would see each other at different times of the day. [00:41:57] You would spend money on your marriage and you would go do things that you normally wouldn't do.
You would leave your kids at times with a very clear instruction that mom and dad need time like this together. You would show affection to each other in front of your children. People having an affair don't give a rip who's around them. They're easy to find. I used to take MFTs to Starbucks and we'd try and figure out who was having an affair at Starbucks. I mean, they're easy to find.
So you need to do all the things that people look for when they're having an affair. And we often say you have to redeem those bad experiences, redeem them, and practice them in your relationship. Most couples, most married couples, the sexual relationship happens in the dark, lights out, doors locked, after the kids are asleep, between the sheets, same way all the time. [00:42:56]
But if you started meeting at a hotel once or twice a week in an afternoon for a lunch and a couple of hours together in the room, I want to tell you, you would have a much better life together. And don't tell me this: "We don't have the money for that kind of thing. I have never heard anybody say, "I'm not going to keep the affair going. I ran out of money. They never ran out of money keeping the affair going. So you'll have money for that if you want to.
Laura Dugger: Wow, you have given us so much to think about. If listeners want to follow up online or make an appointment with you, if that's possible, or even look into your resources, where would you direct them?
Dave Carder: Well, they can make an appointment, they can go to davecarder.com and they can book an appointment. If they are struggling with something like this, they can go to restoreus.net. I've put most of this, the work I do with couples in a 15... I think it's 15 set video that you can do in the privacy of your own home if you want to. [00:44:04] Same stuff I do with my couples. I'm happy to help any way I can. I love doing this work.
Laura Dugger: Well, and in case it's someone's first time listening, we always link to all of these resources in both our show notes and on our "Resources" tab of the website. So we'll make it easy for you to find Dave and his resources.
We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Dave, what is your savvy sauce?
Dave Carder: If I had one thing to say to couples in this day and age, I would say spend money on your marriage. My wife and I made a goal. We drove old cars so we could build expensive memories. And we did. And at this stage of our life, we are thrilled that we did this. We have spent money on this relationship in unbelievable ways. [00:45:06]
Laura Dugger: That is such a wise word. As a therapist, I remember learning about your resources back in graduate school. And then a few years after graduate school, I was able to sit under your teaching live in San Diego. And now it was such a joy to get to learn more from you again today. So you are a natural teacher and I'm very grateful for you and your contribution to marriages. So thank you for being my guest today.
Dave Carder: Well, it's my privilege. We can get the word out. Marriage is still alive and wonderful. And it does fulfill your deepest need for attachment to another human being. But you have to work at it. It's not spontaneous and it doesn't always stay together without attention.
Laura Dugger: Amen.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:46:07] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:47:10] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. [00:48:09] The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:49:10]