The Savvy Sauce

170 Mastering Technology So It Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

170. Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Matthew 6:22 (NIV) "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light."

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. When you look at brain science research, what have you learned about how technology rewires our brains?

2. What is most helpful in restoring and repairing our brains and our relationships?

3. As it relates to the future, where do you think technology is headed and what should be on our radar?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd is the Director of the Flourish Center for Wellbeing in Knoxville, TN, and as the Founder and President of Flourish Wellbeing University. She has a Master's Degree specializing in Christian Counseling, and a Doctorate in Leadership. She is also an ICF (PCC) Professional Certified Coach, a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach, and ICF Mentor Coach. She is the co-author with her father Dr. Archibald Hart of "The Digital Invasion: How Technology is Shaping You and Your Relationships". She lives with her husband of 37 years in beautiful Knoxville, TN we they one daughter, two sons, one son-in-law, one daughter-in-law, two beautiful grand daughters and an adorable grand-son. She is passionate about coaching people to flourish and thrive in their: Spiritual Emotional, Mental, Physical, Relational, and Vocational wellbeing. Sylvia is most restored and experiences God when she is close to water, walks in nature, creates beauty and has deep coaching conversations.

 

Flourish Center for Well-Being

Email Dr. Frejd at DrSylvia@FlourishCenterforWellbeing.com

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Digital Invasion by Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

Thrilled to Death by Dr. Archibald Hart

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

[00:00:18] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 1,700 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd is my guest today. She has advanced degrees in Christian counseling and leadership, and she's passionate about coaching people to flourish and thrive in all aspects of well-being. Today we're going to zero in on digital wellbeing as we talk about a book she co-authored with her late partner, Dr. Archibald Hart, titled The Digital Invasion: How Technology is Shaping You and Your Relationships. Listen in as we discuss technology's impact on our brains and our relationships. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sylvia.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, thanks, Laura, for having me today on your podcast. It's a joy to get to talk with you.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:01:26] Well, I'm excited just to hear a little bit more about your journey that led you to where you are today.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, absolutely. Well, I was actually born and raised in South Africa. My family moved to Los Angeles when I was ten for my dad, Dr. Archibald Hart, to be the dean at Fuller Seminary. He was actually one of the founders of Christian Psychology. And my mom actually was the chaplain to student wives for many years there at Fuller.

 

I did just want to say at the outset that both my parents died last summer, actually two and a half weeks apart. But they had a huge impact on my life. I just count it as a privilege to carry on their legacy. It was actually an honor to coauthor my book, The Digital Invasion, with my dad a few years ago. It was actually my first book, it was his last book. He was 83 when he wrote it, which I think is so encouraging for all of us that it's never too late or you're never too old.

 

But it was through researching that topic of this digital invasion that I really developed my passion to help families to thrive in their real life and relationships. It was a very personal journey for myself as I had my own wake up call to my son's video gaming addiction. So it's been a very personal journey to help my own family to carry on what my dad said was probably his most important work, and it was his final kiss, so to speak, to the church before he left this earth. So I'm very privileged and really humbled to do this work.

 

So now I founded the Flourish Wellbeing University, where I'm just teaching people how to flourish in their lives. I do grief and loss intensives. I'm very passionate about that topic. I've been married for 37 years and I have three children and I'm a nana to three beautiful grandchildren. I live with that every day, watching their exposure to the digital world and how hard it is to try to protect them from all that's out there and really helping my children parent my grandkids in a healthy use of technology.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:03:41] Well, you are an incredible woman. And I do just want to acknowledge the loss of both your parents so close together. I just want to say I'm profoundly thankful for all of your family. You've made such an impact in God's kingdom here on earth, and especially through Christian Psychology. So I do want to say I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Thank you, Laura. I appreciate that. My parents were 87 and 89 and they lived a full life and they finished well. And I hope that we all are encouraged to do the same thing.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:04:17] Yes. Well, like you said, you have researched so much about our digital lives. I just want to start here. What is your theology of technology?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: My father and I really spent a lot of time coming up with what is a good theology of technology. You don't hear a lot of this necessarily from the pulpit. So we would like to give that to people, what we believe. I have a long version in my book, but basically the simple version is just that God created us in His image to be relational beings, to be in relationship with Him, to be in relationship with ourselves, in relationship with others.

 

We believe that this technology is a gift. It's an amazing gift, and that we are to steward it well and that we're not to become slaves to it. But it's a tool ultimately to be used for God's glory. So that's kind of, in a nutshell, just our theology of technology.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:05:19] Let's focus on the positives first. How do you think we can use technology to further the kingdom of God?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Laura, there are so many positive uses. And we really emphasized that when we wrote the book and when we speak on this topic, that technology is... and I've heard it said it's like a brick, right? You can use a brick to build a cathedral or you can use a brick to destroy something. So it can be used... I think of going to all the world to preach the gospel and how today, through technology, we can share the gospel.

 

I wish that I would do this more. And I’d encourage our listeners to think about, you know, how can we really share scriptures? I like to say post positive God stories, right, all the little ways and large ways that God's working in our lives. So I think there's so many positive ways we can use it.

 

We also can use it within our families to... you know, we have in our family a group text. I try to send scriptures from time to time or prayer requests or just ways to connect in our daily lives. So I think it really starts with just really praying about how God wants us to use our technology. We pray about so many things, who we should marry, where we live. This is something that our technology is just with us all the time. And we need to really be in prayer about, how is this a tool to ultimately bring God glory?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:06:51] I love how you bring this up, because even this week I felt the Lord speaking to me about The Savvy Sauce podcast and revealing that this is partly how He's invited me to do my part in the great commission. That even now, as I'm getting to sit and be discipled by you, Sylvia, my prayer is that this podcast and all of our episodes can also be discipling others and going out to all the nations. So technology can have a profound impact for the kingdom.

 

And I know sometimes people grow tired of hearing the negatives, but they're potentially so dangerous that I think it bears repeating. So what would you say are some warnings that you want to share as it relates to technology?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, absolutely. I think that listeners who are listening in today to really do some self-evaluation about, are they overusing or are they addicted to their technology. So just some of the warning signs are what happens if you can't find your phone? Do you get really anxious? Are you waking up during the night at all hours of the night to check your phone?

 

And this is a big one. Do you look at your phone when someone's talking to you? Almost like you can't stop it, you can't help yourself because you're not in control; your device is in control. And then another big one and I saw this again was a warning sign with my son was that he used to love to play the drums, he used to love to play soccer, and he didn't want to do those real-life things anymore because the things that he was doing in his virtual life were just way more stimulating. And we'll get into more of that, you know, the brain and what's happening there.

 

And then a big one is just ask your family. They'll tell you, right? Mom, you're on the phone too much. Dad, get off your devices. So those are some of the warning signs. And the one I'm the most concerned about, Laura, is just this incredible increase in anxiety and depression, especially with our younger generation. So those are just some of the things we have to look out for.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:08:59] And what do you believe are some of the antidotes that are available? If we are answering some of those questions and maybe we're convicted right now, what are some practical ways to offer hope?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Absolutely. One of the themes that I have with flourish in real life and relationships is to balance it. Technology's not going away. The children today in schools are absolutely immersed in technology. They have their tablets. Their work is all on screens for the most part. So how do we balance that out with real life?

 

One of the things I did with my son was to find things that he enjoyed. He found he loved golf. So what are those things in real life that you can enjoy that can pull you out of the virtual life so that the virtual life isn't so desirable? Even with friends, right? We spend a lot of time on social media because we desire and God's created us to have connections. So just trying to balance that out with what could I be doing right now in real life? Is there something that would be a better use of my time? Calling a friend, FaceTiming with a friend. Getting out in nature.

 

Another really important antidote is to just try to practice good emotional intelligence. You know, the reason we have so much anxiety and depression is because we're not processing our emotions. So instead of have a painful feeling, where's my phone, to just be able to sit with that and say, what is this emotion trying to tell me right now? How can I process it and work with it?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:10:30] And I just want to add a little bit more to that as well, because your book I originally read when I first became a parent. And then after we had our four daughters, I wanted to revisit it in a different phase. So a few things that I've gathered. You talked about the practical application of journaling and what an impact that has on us. And then you also talk about different ways that we can recover a healthy pleasure center.

 

Five of those ways to restore the pleasure center, I'll just name them briefly, and people will have to read the book to find out more. But it's live a connected life, aim for sovereign joy, receive God's peace, practice gratitude, and cultivate hope and resilience. So would you want to elaborate on any of those thoughts?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. It's just amazing how God has made our brains to help us to flourish. We see the damage that's been done in our brain system. And if we just really go with the things that God's given us, being able to journal, like you said, is huge. It takes so much of that anxiety and fear. The currency of Satan today is fear and anxiety. And being able to journal and pour our hearts out to God and take that time to put that down on paper is huge.

 

And being able to process those emotions so that I don't keep being distracted. Because that's what's really happening in our overuse of technology is our brains are being rewired for distraction. So being able to have that time to be still, to focus. If you're a parent out there today, that's one of the best things you could do for your children is just to get them to be still and to focus because, you know, the focused life is going to be the productive life. So, yes, I think all of those things to restore our tranquility system and our pleasure system are just huge.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:12:30] A follow-up question on that then. When you think of focus, would you consider that, like if they're doing an art project or something not even related to homework, if they're focused on play as they're younger, is that all intertwined?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, absolutely. And I think that there's going to be enough time where they do have to be on technology beyond screen time. But the brain just thrives, Laura, in free time and playtime, and honestly, in boredom. And that seems like such a strange thing to talk about in this day and age. But you know, I shared I was born and raised in South Africa, and I had no screens at all. I didn't see television till I was almost a teenager. So I was incredibly bored.

 

And my dad would talk about this all the time, and how bored he was as a child in the 30s. And our brains become so creative when we're bored. So having that playtime, that fun time, that time to even just have to make up games, right, for our children is so important. So when kids say to the parents, “I'm bored.” “Good. That's great. You're bored.”

 

[00:13:44] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

Sponsor: With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin.

 

In Peoria, a historic downtown location, apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.

 

And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park.

 

Their beautiful spacious apartments with private garages and a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments.

 

Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even many storage units available in some locations. Leman Property Management company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company.

 

If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.

 

Check them out on Facebook today, or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. That's lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.

 

[00:15:40] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: What have you learned about how technology rewires our brains?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: So the main part to that is our overuse of technology rewires our brains through distraction. And the distracted brain becomes the addicted brain. So it's been called digital cocaine because our technology gives us this hit of dopamine in our pleasure center.

 

So we're just overusing our pleasure centers. The basis to that we're developing what Dr. Caroline Leaf calls the milkshake brain, where all of the multitasking—and we don't have time for all that—but multitasking has been proven to be a myth. We don't multitask, we multisequence. But we're getting this milkshake brain, right? I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere. So this is impacting these parts of our brain, the pleasure system in our brain. We're overloading it.

 

And then our learning system in the brain. A lot of that comes from the lack of sleep because our overuse of screens robs us of our sleep. And what we've learned can't go into our hypothalamus, into our long-term memory. It's impacting our tranquility system. It's amazing how God has made us with this brain that we have our own natural tranquility system.

 

So now we're having to use so much medication without anxiety and depression. But if we're able to really harness this natural hormone system God's given us, so we don't want to call disrupt the tranquility system, you know, a lot of us wouldn't need to be even on the medication. And then we're seeing the overuse of a technology impact our spiritual system, you know, that ability to experience God in what we talked about in Chapter 10 of our book, our God Space, that place in our brain where we experience God.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:17:28] Well, let's go a little bit further with some of those into the solutions. So if technology is rewiring our brains and harming our pleasure center, what is a healthy solution to restore that?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Right. You know, it starts with really respecting your brain's limitations. I think as humans, we don't want to hear that, you know, that our brains are limited. We can't multitask. We can't be in two conversations at the same time. We need to teach our kids today, you know, listening to your children. And start with ourselves, you know, to single task.

 

And I try to do this, you know, when I'm like, "Okay, I want to do this, I want to do that." I really have to say, Stop, focus, you know, just do one thing, do that well, and then move on to the next. Because what happens if I'm doing one thing, and then I stopped to do something else, you know, the research says it takes us 10 minutes to refocus on what I started doing. So that is really huge. Just try the single-tasking.

 

Then a big piece is sleep. My dad used to talk about eight to nine hours of sleep a night. Our brain goes into recovery mode during our sleep time. And our brain needs a lot of sleep. And then it needs to balance out with screen-free time each day. I know it's gonna be different for each family what that looks like. But just even as you're listening today, think about where can I have time that I just am away from screens? Whether that's out in nature. You know, research is showing it's so healing time spent in nature. Where else can you have some screen-free time in your home?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:19:05] I'm assuming all of this impacts our tranquility system you were talking about as well. Are there any other tangible solutions that we can do to help aid this process of healing as well?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Right. The main part of our tranquility system is when we're, like I was saying, with the digital cocaine, it keeps our stress levels high because the cortisol is up because I'm waiting for that next text or I'm waiting for that next post. So our stress hormones are being disrupted and they're staying so high. So that's, again, why we're seeing stress leads to anxiety, anxiety leads us to depression.

 

So when we can do things too lower that stress hormone. And there's a lot of great ways to do that. There's an app out there called Calm. You know, what can you do to just, whether it's through breathing, whether it's through just putting the phone down, and like I said, getting out in nature to try and lower that stress? Because that is really one of the main reasons why our overuse of technology is so damaging to our brains and our bodies is that high level of stress.

 

So whether that's through breathing, whether it's through exercise, what can you do to be very aware of your stress hormones response? And tuning into your body? What is your body experiencing right now? How can you calm that?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:20:26] A lot of this is covered on pages 62 to 73 of your book, if somebody's following along or wants to research more. But one of my takeaways from that section was just how amazing it was that breaks and sleep and face-to-face connection were repeated in the repair systems, and just how powerful those are. And the one other amazing takeaway just how God designed us is that practicing spiritual disciplines actually heals our brain. So would you want to say anything else about healing the spiritual system of our brain?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, sure. You know, that was something as we were writing the book that, you know, you read all the bad news, right? And it was like, Well, what is the solution? What can help us? So it was really through Dr. Thompson's work, that neuro theology that he was talking about, how silence and solitude really helps to heal our brains.

 

So we really made this connection that if our overuse of technology is rewiring our brain for distraction, then it was really through the spiritual discipline of silence and solitude that our brains are able to heal. So that was a huge aha for us in reading that. So to just think about how are you balancing that each day. Are you getting time to be... you know, the Bible says in Psalm 46:10, "Be still and know that I'm God." He doesn't say, run around and do 10 things and you'll know I'm God.

 

Our brain, again, thrives in stillness and quiet. And if you look around your world today, we get so little of it. So the antidote really is right there for us. It's just going to take some self-management and some discipline right, to have that and to help your children to be still and not to always be entertained. My dad wrote the book, Thrilled to Death, and it was all about we're entertaining ourselves to death, where our children are being entertained to death. That really is our antidote.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:22:30] That is another profound book that made such an impact. I would highly recommend that one as well. But one more part that you talk about is the attachment system. I think of this, in general, is relationships, because attachment is such a large part. So could you explain attachment a little bit further, and then share how technology is impacting our relationships?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Absolutely. This is such an important piece for us to grasp. God, again, He's created us to be in relationship, to be attached to Him, to have attachments with others. So to have healthy attachments, with our spouse, with our children, with friends, we need to feel safe, we need to feel seen, and we need to feel heard. That's really what is at the core of attachment theory or having attachment.

 

So how our technology robs us of that is that when we're constantly looking down at screens, when we're constantly distracted with our phones, those that we love are not going to feel seen and heard, right? I like to say, your children and your loved ones, they need your eyeballs. And that's really what we're fighting for.

 

I heard one tech creator say, you know, what we really want is your eyeballs, right? They're fighting to make these devices addicted to get our eyeballs. So that's what our loved ones need. To be present to those people right in front of us, not to have... it's actually a term called absent presence. And that's when you're in the same room with someone but you're actually with somebody else on a screen.

 

I really believe it's the greatest gift that we can give those that we love, the gift of our presence. I know as a Nana to three little grandchildren, that's one gift that I've promised them, you know, to form those healthy attachments with them is that they have the gift of my presence. And I'm very aware when I'm with them to put my phone down and to turn the TV off and to really give them that.

 

I think that as far as our attachment to God, that's what He wants us to be is to be attached to Him. But we have many... what I call false attachments. Those give us pleasure, right? They can be online shopping, social media, just surfing websites that can feel like, you know, they give us some kind of pleasure. But they're really false attachments.

 

We need to really work on... we're created for union with the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, right? The union. God wants us to keep union with Him, and then to be attached to those that we love. And I've heard stories and this has happened to me too, so not judging here. But you know, stories of kids saying, "I kicked the ball for the very first time, I looked up in the stands, and my dad was looking down at his phone. He missed it." That is going to impact how kids feel seen and feel heard and feel valued.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:25:25] Wow, that is so powerful, and so memorable, that our loved ones need our eyeballs. It makes me think of Matthew 6:22 that says, the eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. So that is so good and memorable. Thank you. They need our eyeballs. And with attachment that really begins with the parent-child relationship, right, and sets that child on a different trajectory of how they are likely going to attach to others, including the Lord?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. You know, as I do work as a counselor and as a coach, as people come in, and sit with me, that is absolutely. If a parent was distant and aloof, that's how they see God. And when kids look at us, you know, we are the face of God to our children. And it's very sobering. And it's almost overwhelming.

 

I would say to my kids all the time, you know, I'm not perfect, I'm not going to reflect Jesus perfectly to you. But we need to really see that. The pleasure that we get from being on our devices sometimes is just... we need to be honest with ourselves, right? That it's overwhelming and it's a big hole.

 

But we have this little time, this little amount of time to be with our kids. Again, just getting back to that discipline of trying to get off the phone, trying to be there for them, because it will impact that child's life, how they see God, how they do relationships, whether they have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment, because there's different attachment styles. So that's just one little step you could take is just be there, be available, look in their eyes, and make them feel seen, and valued, and heard.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:27:13] I think that's such a balanced response. You're right, we cannot be perfect to our children, we will not be Jesus to them. And yet, there is a humbling reality and responsibility that we have. But I also love how you said, as a Nana, you're wanting to attach to your grandchildren. And it makes me think there are so many key players that also pour into our children to have that secure attachment.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Definitely. You hear stories all the time of teachers, of Sunday school teachers and neighbors and grandparents who have a huge, huge impact. So I encourage anyone that's in my stage of life to grandparents to... you know, sometimes we're even more available. Maybe because we're older and we learned, hopefully, a few things, maybe a little bit wiser. But just to think about how you can help those in your life to form healthy attachments.

 

[00:28:13] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you to all our patrons who financially support this work. You put a smile on our faces when you sign up to become a patron. Your generosity is both inspiring and encouraging, and we are so grateful.

 

I also want to invite everyone else to join the club. So visit thesavvysauce.com and click on the "Patreon" tab, then follow the prompts after clicking "Join Patreon Here!!!". When you contribute at least $5 a month, you automatically will have access to a bonus library of content. New podcasts are available exclusively to paying patrons every month. And every quarter, you get a new downloadable scripture card designed by Ange at Jars of Grace.

 

So visit thesavvysauce.com and click the "Patreon" tab today.

 

[00:29:03] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Overall, what would you say is the most helpful piece in restoring and repairing our brains and our relationships?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: That's a really good question. I think for me, having some kind of a plan, you know, some steps to take. I do have a digital wellness plan that my dad and I came up with. And I think if I can share some of those just practical ways.

 

I think it starts by just first of all trying to limit your exposure. Again, technology's not going away. We've seen in the last year and a half where you've been immersed way more than we were before. But just to be selective. Be a discriminant user.

 

One of the things I did was I removed my newsfeed from my phone. And that's just been really freeing to not just feel constantly a slave to the ping and the ding of what's happening. So just think of ways that you can even just limit some of your exposure for your own life, with your children.

 

And then try to create some space where technology doesn't go. And that may just be in small ways. Like sacred space in the morning where no phones are. Maybe just even one of the things I did notice sounds so small, but the baby steps is just when I go to the bathroom. You know, don't take your phone with you. Just have a place where your phone doesn't have to go everywhere with you.

 

And then to face your feelings. To really ask, why am I spending so much time in technology? What are those painful feelings I'm trying to self-soothe or to medicate? And then keep a journal of those feelings as we talked about before. And then finding beauty to balance the brokenness. I just love that. You know, there's so much brokenness in even our world, in that we get thrown at us through the news feeds and through social media.

 

And what is that beauty? You know, whether that's listening to encouraging podcasts, like hopefully, you're doing today, beautiful music, getting out in nature. Really God has given us so much beauty to balance the brokenness that's out there.

 

And then one that I think is really, really important. That is to go deep in this shallow world. I loved Mr. Rogers, he said, in a world that's fast and shallow, we need slow and deep. I think that is really, so much the antidote, and the answer to all of this is, how do we go slow and how do we go deep in a world that is so fast and shallow?

 

Laura Dugger: [00:31:38] Oh, wow, that is good. And it ties in. I'm going to quote you from page 156, where you write, "Our digital life serves us best when it is balanced by its opposite, namely, our unplugged life." That just makes me think when we are unplugged, that often will lead to conversations and conversations make up relationships.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. I like to call myself the conversation doctor, because that's really what we're trying to reclaim in all of this is conversations. Again, conversations with God, conversations with ourselves, conversations with others, and especially, with our loved ones. It's through conversations that we learn how to be a human being, and it's how we get to know God.

 

So I like to say that in your home, there should be places that are digital-free zones where conversation can flow freely. And that's your kitchen, your dining room, and your car. If you can make all those places digital-free so you can really have conversations. That's how children develop emotional intelligence. Right? It's through conversations.

 

"So, really, how was school today?" "Oh, well, Sammy was mean to me." "Oh, how did that make you feel? What do you think's going on with Sammy?" As we have those conversations, that's how our children are learning about life. My mother used to say, In dialogue, our thoughts are clarified. We can say what we're feeling, we can have that back and forth dialogue. So trying to reclaim conversation is a big piece of what I'm doing.

 

Again, another baby step for you as a family, just the dining room table and just say, we're gonna have a conversation. And I know how it goes. I don't want to talk. How are you doing? Fine. I'm fine, Mom. I'm fine. But that's really what our kids need, and what our loved ones need is conversations.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:33:34] Yes to that. Absolutely. Healthy boundaries can provide so much freedom in our lives in various areas. But when we specifically look at digital limits that eventually can lead to greater freedom, what are some of the most beneficial boundaries you recommend we establish for ourselves and for our children?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Sure. I'll just start through the age range. You know, for a toddler, they're saying too, this is the experts saying, to limit exposure to really no more than one hour a day of screen time, trying to make that educational programming. Sit with your child, interact with them, so they don't just zone out for an hour. To say, "Oh, what was happening with Daniel the tiger?" "He looks sad." "What do you think about that? Do you get sad?" So if you can have that interaction, it can just really be a lot more beneficial.

 

Then for children, they're saying no more than two hours of screen time. What I like to say is it's very hard to be legalistic about that. Set the timer and you know, how much was it? Was three minutes over or three minutes under. But to ask yourself this question: is there something my child should be doing that the screen time is preventing?

 

I really liked that. Because you know, maybe they should be napping, maybe they should be playing, having playtime with a friend. Maybe they should be outside. So that's really how we balance our real life and our virtual life is, is there something that this is preventing?

 

And then for teenagers, and I know this is controversial, but you know, to try not give a smartphone until the age of 13. That is what all the tech experts say, including Gates and Steve Jobs did not let their children have phones. So I figure if they created them, they must know something that we don't. Those are really good boundaries. Make sure you have your kids' passwords, that they sign a digital pledge, they know what's expected of them. No cell phones in the bedrooms. That's when most destructive behavior happens in middle of the night with texting, with kids sexting.

 

Have a charging station that's out, you know, where everyone can charge their phone, including parents. Because this is just not about digital wellness for kids, we need to be modeling this.

 

Then for us adults, try not to check your phone while you're getting ready for bed. Have about an hour of screen-free time to really get some good sleep. Don't check your phone first thing when you get up. I'd like to say let God get your first view, you know, talk to Him, get the Scripture before you get all the downloads from the day before.

 

And the most important part to all of this, I think as parents, as Christians, is just try to model digital wellness yourself saying more is caught than taught. If you have a good control, and you're modeling good digital habits, those will be caught.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:36:20] I want to go even deeper into the teenagers and technology because we've had some families reach out and just say, "This is a new place for us. We have given our children smartphones because we want to teach them while they're in our home how to steward this well. So do you have any recommendations for a balanced approach of wise ways that parents can parent their teens through this season of getting their smartphone and interacting with technology more?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, absolutely. Well, Laura, you know, I spent four years working at a university and I would work with students on their digital wellness. So I want to say to parents of teenagers, yes, it's very wise to let them have access to their phones. I even say that their senior year, maybe even let them have their phone in the room. Because the point is they go off to college, and then suddenly, it's total freedom. So they need to sort of be released to know how to do that.

 

Most important thing is really to have conversations. I had a lot of college students say to me, "My parents didn't teach me how to use my digital devices." Well, I have many kids say that's how they got into internet pornography. "My parents didn't talk about sex, so I was curious. And I just started googling."

 

I had many kids tell me, young people tell me that they wanted to talk with their parents, but when they go into the rooms, their parents were all distracted on their devices. So they would just go back to the room and text with friends. So I think it's really important in those high school years that you're available. Again, the eyeball analogy: Be there when your child wants to talk, especially at nighttime. That's when kids' spirits seem to really be open. And that's when we're the most tired, and we don't want to talk. Be available to them to have those conversations and say, If you have any questions, if you come to me, there's no subject that's off limits. So you're available for them.

 

And then having the passwords and letting them know there is going to be some accountability. You know, what you do post or what you put out there, you know, you are going to have accountability, not in a mean way or strict way, but in a "I want to help you. And I want to help you to thrive when you do go off to college, and you do launch from this home".

 

So the relationship is everything. It's out of the strength of our attachment and our relationship that we create the rules and the boundaries. So really work on the relationship. Even after listening to this podcast, you know, say this is what I learned today, and I want to help you to not have a distracted brain. I want to help you to have some good boundaries with your digital use. I think that's really the answer.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:38:56] I think my takeaway when I have a quick thought, when interacting with our kids, I'm going to try and remember eyeballs in conversation, to prioritize those in the relationship. I want to quote you again on page 31, where you and your dad write, "Our findings confirmed our worst fear. Digital engagement seems to be breaking down their sense of unity as a family." So, Sylvia, how can we redeem what technology has stolen from our family?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, getting back to the purpose of our technology, you know, technology was created to make our lives easier and more productive. That's really what it's about. It's funny how it ends up making our lives harder and less productive. But if we get back to the intended design and use of that and to think putting technology in its place in your home, where does it belong?

 

And again, it's going to be different for each family. I've talked with families who have very little screen very few screens and tech families and have a lot. So starting by just praying. What is our family mission statement? How are we going to use technology in this home? And how do we want to use it in a way that's redemptive.

 

So again, using it, to share family devotionals, to share scriptures, to encourage your kids to post positive things about their classmates. I had people tell me that college recruiters that they look to see who are the kids that are making positive comments about fellow students are way to go, you hit a home run, a great job. So just being a really positive force.

 

And then again, having as many face-to-face conversations as a family as you can, and breaking up that conversation deficit. You know, FaceTiming with relatives. I live with my grandchildren now at the same time, but I did it for a while, and I loved being able to FaceTime. So being able to connect them with other family members, maybe they don't get to see all the time.

 

And then really sitting down and praying as a family. How do you think God wants us to use this technology? And then coming up with your own family digital wellness plan. It is amazing when you let your kids take ownership of it. They may even be a little stricter than you thought, you know. But be ready that when they say, "Mom, you're on the phone too much," or "Dad, you're on your devices too much" to not be defensive, and "no, I'm not." But to be able to say, "You know, you're right, and we can do this together."

 

So the beauty of this is I think it can be very redemptive in bringing families closer together and coming together to come up with a digital wellness plan.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:41:32] And I'm wondering, Sylvia, if that's part of your story. So just to turn it a little bit more personal now, would you be open to sharing a little bit more of your family's journey through your son's struggle with video gaming addiction?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. It really started with sitting down with him and with my other two children as well, and just really sharing how much I loved him and how much I was his biggest fan, biggest supporter, and how I wanted to see her thrive in his real life. Then I started sharing education. So it wasn't just, you know, This is what I think or feel. This is what the research is telling us. And really stepping them through the reality of what... you know, I shared with him what was happening to his brain and he's very, very smart.

 

If you have children today that are addicted to video gaming, to realize that the high-risk is a very intelligent child who's a little more introverted. And that's who he was. So really sharing that, you know, that you are more introverted. And finding, you know, what are things you enjoy in real life? AAnd encouraging him in that and giving him opportunities to join the golf team, to find ways to connect with other people. So I actually taught him a lot of emotional intelligence, because my other two are very high in emotional intelligence. He's higher in IQ.

 

So really just sharing that and keeping it about the heart relationship of how much I love him, and I want to see him thrive. And entering his world. You know, I would sit and watch him play the game and say, "What is about this that you love?" And trying to understand rather than just "stop that. That's not good for you." You know, "Help me understand why do you enjoy this? And what is it that you can do in real life that would give you the same sense of mastery, and accomplishment?"

 

Laura Dugger: [00:43:31] Sylvia, where is your son now on his journey of recovery?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. He graduated from college. So that was a big plus. I mean, I would be honest in saying that I think it's still something that he's really drawn to. And I think like he says, to me, "Mom, our generation is just going to video games for the rest of our lives. That's what we do. You guys would watch TV, we videogame."

 

So I think it's going to still be an ongoing challenge for him. I wouldn't say the ending is, you know, he gave up into gaming, and everything's great. I think it's still a challenge for him. But I've seen a definite maturing, and an ability to balance it out with his real life.

 

I think that's important, too. It's not like AA where, well, you just don't ever touch alcohol again. With these types of addictions, it's difficult, because you're going to be in technology the rest of your life. You can't just, for most of us, throw it away. So it's definitely an ongoing challenge, I think, for him. But I would say the key piece was just the relationship of him knowing that I love him and I'm supporting him, encouraging him, and his awareness of what's going on. And the education he's received on the topic has really been helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:44:47] Well, thank you. That's incredibly helpful to hear the reality and the picture of real-life struggle with this and maturing and managing it. And for others who are maybe in the midst of a struggle with a digital addiction, what's your vision maybe 10 years from now, for those who learn to master this area of their life compared to those who eventually will become mastered by it?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, I tell people all the time, if you master your technology instead of it mastering you, you really will be a cut above your peers. I would say that to the college students that I would teach. If you're able to master it and really have a focus brain single task, you're going to have better emotional intelligence, which is your self-awareness. If you're able to get off your phone and tune into what you're feeling and journal that, you're going to have better self-management, because our overuse of technology shuts down our prefrontal cortex, and that's the executive management part of our brain.

 

So you're going to be able to self-manage better. You're going to have a better relationship management. You'll have deeper relationships with God. You're going to be able to hear from God because you're still and you're quiet and you can hear from Him. Definitely, you know, the deeper relationship with your family and friends. And not only to talk to God, but really being a listener and being able to hear God's voice, it's just such an important part of our relationship with God.

 

And I think, for those who, unfortunately, are going to be mastered by it, I guess just we'll look at the opposite of that. That they're going to really struggle and not have good EQ. And resources is showing how important that emotional intelligence is now for success, people with high EQ make more money, they have more friends, they have a better quality of life.

 

Your relationships are not going to be as deep because it does take that attachment. They need your eyeballs. And if they don't have your eyeballs, you're not going to have those close attachments. And you're going to honestly just the addicted brain... your brain loves novelty. You're going to probably get into other addictions, as well. Because, you know, if you're going to become pleasure-seeker, or as my dad talked about becoming a hedonic, where you don't find pleasure in anything. So, you know, I hate to paint such a grim picture but this really is serious, and it's the truth.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:47:11] That is serious. And I do appreciate you even giving practical steps prior in this conversation of actionable ways that people can start working on their own healing journey. And as it relates to the future, where do you think technology is headed and what should be on our radar?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: I love talking about future things. It's important to think as Christians for us to be aware of what technology is being created. And I think in some ways, we're probably not as savvy in that topic as we should be. So technology's really moving from external to internal. So we've had our smartphones, now we have our watches we wear, and now Google's working on an implant to implant us with a chip.

 

So basically the goal is that at nighttime, we would be able to download everything directly into our brains. They also, of course, have Google Glass you've probably heard of, where you'll just wear the glasses, and then you know, projects the screen in front of you. So you can have the internet with you wherever you go.

 

We have what's called the singularity, with Ray Kurtzweil. Google is paying him millions and millions of dollars to create what's called singularity. If you're interested, you can Google it. But it's basically where we will merge humanity and technology. He says that it will be a future of unparalleled human-machine synthesis.

 

So, again, as Christians, we need to know about this. It's called transhumanism, where the goal is that they say humans are limited and we need to evolve. So our next level of evolving is to become part robot, part human. And the goal of transhumanism is really to live forever, which if we see where that's coming from, that God hasn't created us to live forever here on earth.

 

So I think it's important for us as Christians to know about that, to also be aware of what's being created in relationship robots. Many people want to be in relationship with a robot instead of a human. We see that even in Japan, the marriage rate is going away down. And a lot of that is because real life can't compete with a virtual life. So the more immersed we are in the virtual world, the less desirable the real world becomes to us.

 

And we see that we haven't really gotten to touch on that with internet pornography, that many people can't even have real-life sexual relationships because what they get through the digital images is so much greater than real life. So just to be aware of that as Christians, you know, what is happening out there and what honestly in the next 20 or 30 years our children are going to be facing.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:49:59] Wow, that is very sobering to hear. And even that last example of pornography, that maybe that intimacy or connection that they're actually longing for can never be met in that way, because God didn't design it that way. And it does sabotage the real-life relationship then. A few things then with this, what do you challenge us to do with this information? And how are you aware of all of these future trends?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, you know, I think the challenge to us as Christians starts with something my dad talked about all the time. And that is we need to respect our limitations. You know, the limitations of our bodies, our brains. We're not meant to live forever on this earth. We're created to be in a relationship with God, an intimate love relationship with God, with ourselves, that self-awareness with other human beings. It's demanding, it's messy. And that's why a lot of people say they want to be in relationship with robots, they don't make demands of them.

 

Real life is demanding, real relationships are messy. But this is what God uses to refine us really and to transform us into His image. So we need to protect those establishments, protect our God's space, that place in our brain where we experience God.

 

You know, scientists are telling us that our brains could be rewired to a place where we won't be able to even experience God. I think in Psalm 139:13, it says, "You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together and my mother's womb. Your workmanship is marvelous, how well I know it." So we need to protect this amazing workmanship, those delicate parts of our brain of our God's space, and to see what's happening with and fight that. You know, relationships with robots, whatever the world is saying, to know that God has us to be in real-life relationships, and to be in real life as much as possible.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:52:03] I think that's a great challenge to end on. One of the benefits of technology is that we can still learn more from you even after this chat, regardless of where we live in the world. So Sylvia, where can we find you online?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Sure. Well, I have the flourishwellbeinguniversity.com. You can go there, or you can email me at drsylvia@flourishwellbeinguniversity.com.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will provide those links in the show notes for today's episode. And you know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, I love that. Well, my savvy sauce relates to what I shared about protecting my God's space in my brain. And that is I take 10 to 15 minutes each day to practice silence and solitude with God. I just get in a quiet place and just be with Him. No agenda, just being open to Him, finding my centeredness and my peace in that place.

 

And then after the time's over, as I go through my day, any time crisis arise or anxiety comes to me or the storms of life, I just go back to that place, Laura, that place of stillness and quiet. And that really helps me to stay centered, to stay grounded in a very uncentered ungrounded world. So I hope that your listeners will consider that, to take some time to do that each day.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, well, thank you for living out these principles that you've recommended to us today. You're just such a great role model for us to follow as we all seek to steward technology well, and ultimately glorify God in the process. So thank you for sharing all of that with us today. And thank you for being my guest.

 

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, thank you, Laura, for having me. It was really a privilege.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:54:05] Ever since launching this podcast in 2018, our team has tried to release at least one episode every Monday morning. In addition, we also launched a secret bonus episode for paying patrons on the first of every month. But in 2022, we're changing things up a bit. We will continue to release the bonus episode for paying patrons. But on those weeks when it's the first of the month, that will be the only episode going live. Which means next week on Monday, there will not be a brand new episode available for the general public.

 

If you benefited from any messages on The Savvy Sauce, we would encourage you to support our work through joining Patreon. You can go to thesavvysauce.com, click on the "Patreon" tab, click "join Patreon here", and then follow the prompts so that you can have access to all these bonus episodes and downloadable scripture cards. We hope you join us there. Otherwise, we'll see you back here in two weeks.

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.

 

[00:56:53] If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

169 Unlocking Meaning and Purpose in Your Life and Overcoming Burnout with Dale Wilsher

169. Unlocking Meaning and Purpose in Your Life and Overcoming Burnout with Dale Wilsher

 

"Pay close attention to yourself [concentrate on your personal development] and to your teaching; persevere in these things [hold to them], for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you." 1 Timothy 4:16 (AMP)

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What are some questions we can ask ourselves to begin to uncover clues about our ideal career?

2. What is a sample list of values and how can we connect those with our to-do list to see if we are spending our time doing what matters most?

3. How does our personality impact the type of career that suits each of us best?

 

Dale Wilsher is an executive life and career coach, keynote speaker, award-winning author of What’s Your Mom Type? and creator of the digital course, Career Kickstart: 30 Days to Your Ideal Job. She specializes in helping her clients discover their truest work and lead their fullest life by deeply understanding their God-given design and individual mission. Once a SAHM mom to her four inspiring daughters, ages 18-25, she is now and empty-nester enjoying a great new season with her husband, Jeff, the man of her dreams. They make their home in Boulder, Colorado. You can find Dale at www.YourAuthenticPersonality.com.

 

Dale Wilsher's Previous Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

Four Personality Types with Dale Wilsher

Patreon 19 Applying Personality Training to Parenting with Dale Wilsher

 

Career Kickstart: 30 Days to Ideal Job 

 

Free Training: How to To Work that Matters on January 25 at 6pm MST. You can register here. 

 

Life Purpose Tool from Dale

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at LemanProperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 

 

Dale Wilsher is my returning guest today, and she is a very motivating executive and career coach, speaker, and author. You're going to leave this conversation empowered and equipped to understand the deeper purpose of your own life and then actually live in a way that is congruent with your deepest values and the desires God has placed within you.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dale. 

 

Dale Wilsher: Thanks, Laura.  It's so great to be with you today. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'm going to make sure that we link to your previous episodes in today's show notes. [00:01:17] But for now, will you just update us on who you are and what your life looks like in this current season?

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah, thank you. My name is Dale Wilsher Rakes. Actually, Dale Wilsher is my maiden name, and that's what I've always used for my business, but I got married a couple of years ago, so that has been big for me.

 

I'm a life and career coach. I'm a speaker and an author. I have to say, getting married a couple of years ago was a huge thing for me. Jeff is the man of my dreams. I had been a single mom for seven years prior to getting married. I had full custody of all four of my daughters who were deeply hurting. It's very rare to get full custody. It was a very difficult season. There were several suicide attempts with my daughters, lots of interventions. It was challenging. So to come out of that time when we were all carrying such a heavy load. [00:02:17]  

 

In 2016, I met Jeff, and we knew pretty quickly that this was probably going to be it, but we weren't ready to get married. I have a big crew. So we bought houses down the street from each other, and the realtor was like, "Oh my gosh, this is the best day of my life. I just sold two houses. You're kidding." 

 

Jeff would push his little lawnmower down, and he mowed my grass, and he would do the same and help me shovel and all the things that I would have to be doing with all the other dads at my last house. So it was delightful. 

 

Then when we got married a few years later, then we all moved down the street into Jeff's house. So for the last couple of years, we've been blending our houses and our hearts. I'm so grateful. 

 

I was married for 23 years the first time, and it was difficult. Came with a lot of brokenness. To know that marriage can be like this, even when we fight, he gets so mad, because I'm like, this is awesome. [00:03:17] So just enjoying this. 

 

For me, my verse has always been from Job, where it says at the very end that God blessed the latter half of Job's life more than the first. And me too. Everyone is doing really well. 

 

My girls are now ages 18 to 25. The oldest is a chemical engineer in Mobile, Alabama, and my second is 23. She is a nurse who just got her dream job with Children's Hospital here in Denver on the oncology floor. All the rest of us live in Boulder. Savannah's the only one who's out of town. 

 

Then I have two who are in college right now. One is a senior who's going to graduate with a degree in criminal justice, and then one who's a freshman who's looking to do social work. Knowing how much healing has had to happen, and how we really prioritize mental health, and how that's created a lot of resilience, and also a lot of purpose for my daughters. Seeing their majors and their mission in life really speak to some of the deeper hurts they have. [00:04:20] I'm so darn proud of those girls.

 

I just became an empty nester, which is crazy. I've never had this level of freedom. It feels like forever. I'm thoroughly enjoying having time now that they're all in a great place to enjoy my husband, but also my business. For the last 15 years, I've been a speaker, but mostly in the faith-based setting, and mostly to women. 

 

Now, I speak mostly in the corporate and business world. I talk about meaningful productivity and meaningful engagement, really connecting your work to your why. Because I believe that if I can help them connect to their hearts, usually in an environment they're not thinking about their hearts, then that's my opportunity to help them also get closer to the Lord. 

 

I also speak in the medical world, because burnout is caused by a lack of purpose. I help them double down and find their unique meaning in the work that they're doing. As an executive life and career coach, I work with a lot of ambitious Christian women, is what I say. [00:05:25] It's not always women. It's not always Christians. But people who have big dreams. 

 

So I'll help a lot of women build authentic coaching businesses, or find their ideal jobs, and just live really full, abundant lives. There's a lot to that that I like to contribute in the form of boundaries, and getting rid of limiting beliefs, and all that kind of stuff.

 

I've also launched a couple of digital courses, and wrote a book. My life is very full, and I'm really grateful.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. Oh, my goodness. That is the word that came to my mind as you were sharing, is you have such a full life. Thank you for being open-handed and authentically sharing a little glimpse of your story. I'm just assuming that there are many listening who maybe have walked through a similar path, or they can identify currently with parts of your story. I know that you're going to be a huge encouragement. 

 

How has your personal career journey impacted the way that you're now helping other people turn their purpose into full potential? [00:06:28] 

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah. Thank you. I think it is important to tell our stories. And it always comes with a lot of humility. For me, that always feels like embarrassment, but God has done a lot. It's nice when you're a little further out in your story, because it's been several years now to see some of what He's doing. I think it's always the most challenging. I always applaud the women who are telling their stories while they're happening. 

 

For 17 years, I was a stay-at-home mom. Before that, I was a microbiologist, and then I was in technical sales. I loved the work that I did. But when my children came along, I had always wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I came from a long line of them, so that was a dream for me. 

 

I love growing people. I love helping them find the best of who they are and see themselves through a lens of God's eyes and just all kinds of teaching things. I'm a huge fan of that. 

 

As it went on, and obviously with several of them, that is a longer period of time, but I was married to an alcoholic who had some other addictions and mental illness that we weren't really aware of at the time. [00:07:36] That knowledge was kind of progressive, which we were like, oh, okay. 

 

I would just try to honor my vows, but also protect my children and still honor a position as father the best I could. I needed to sacrifice basically my potential, my vocational potential to build theirs. It was worth it. Wouldn't change a thing. 

 

But it definitely made it harder for me when all of a sudden one day I found myself separated. I did not see it coming. Like I said, I've been married 23 years, and this happened on my 23rd wedding anniversary. I got married when I was 23, so it was very eerie what God was doing, but I knew he was in it. We had had a lot of counseling. I had been praying for years, had a lot of people speaking into my life.

 

If you've ever gone through that or know someone who has, sometimes God uses something He hates, divorce, to overcome something He hates more, sinful lifestyles and the way people are treated in unloving ways. [00:08:39] 

 

So I walked through that door and found myself needing to get full-time employment. That was very different. I had been speaking for years at that point, but it was a hobby. I always say I spoke to mops groups and some faith-based groups and... you know, you make potpourri and Starbucks cards like that. You cannot pay your mortgage with that stuff. So it's lovely, but I needed to ramp it up big time.

 

I met with people and tried to figure things out, but I felt very unprepared for a life outside of motherhood. I was very confused as to who I was and what I was truly equipped to do. I felt like I had been trying to be everything to everyone for a very long time, which made it very confusing as to who I was supposed to be, what I actually was good at. Was I good at anything? What did I have to contribute? 

 

So for me, starting to define myself and the ways that God had gifted me and what I had to offer, that is what I want to do for others. [00:09:45] I want them to have direction because they have definition, that we're all a slice of his image.

 

None of us are called to be Him. We're in a body for that. We all get to contribute different things. And I believe it's so important that we know what we're here to do so that we can steward that and offer it to the world.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that was such an unplanned season of transition. It makes me think of all these other people where work has shifted recently over the past few years. So, from your perspective as a professional life and career coach, what are some common transitional times that you've noticed people have been reevaluating their career choice?

 

Dale Wilsher: Great question. As I mentioned, a life crisis, something like divorce or widowhood. I've definitely had clients who have been in both of those situations. I do find that right off the bat it is very difficult to make those kinds of decisions. [00:10:44] But once you've had a little bit of time and have moved through it, sometimes you just need to get work. But then to thoughtfully go after what am I really here to do? What do I really want to be able to contribute? So life crisis, career reentry.

 

For moms, some dads, but I have worked primarily with moms, their kids are old enough to be in school, and so now they need to get back and start contributing financially. Or it could be you've got an empty nest. You know, where I am right now, what is going to fill my time, and what is intentional? 

 

I see it with people retiring as well. I've worked with a lot of people in medicine with some very meaningful jobs, and their personal lives don't seem to have the same amount of meaning, and so it's very difficult for them to feel like they're going to do purposeful work after medicine. But they need to retire from one thing so that they can also prioritize other important things. 

 

Then finally, just unhappiness. You know, we're seeing it now with the great resignation. A lot of people have been unhappy in their work, and now they're starting to really take action on that. [00:11:50] You know, whether they've been bored or maybe burned out. 

 

I had a client, her name is Kate.  She was in marketing, and she was very unhappy with her work. She was a great woman, and I don't think other people at her job knew it, but she knew it. You know, she said that she kind of stumbled into her marketing major, was good at it, someone recommended it, and then she got a couple of good jobs right out of college and, you know, always did well. But she's like, "I don't even love this. Like, why am I doing this?" 

 

And then one of the physicians I worked with, you know, he had a 30-year career in medicine, and yet he did all of that, as he's reflected back, to get the approval of one of his parents. Then you start asking, like, "What's wrong with me that I don't love what I'm doing? Am I not grateful or whatever it is?" And it's not that. It's just that your meaning is no longer being able to be delivered through your role. There's a better role for you. 

 

But unhappiness, we need to listen to that. [00:12:49] A lot of times as women, we will say, Ah, you know, I'm just being selfish or it's not spiritual if I like it. As if it's only God's will if it stinks for us, which is not true. 

 

So really paying attention to things that do not feel good and reflecting on those. Is there something better that you could be doing? And let that speak a little bit. So don't be impulsive. Let that be something that might open up some conversations with God.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. This is such worthwhile work because as I'm listening to you, I'm just reflecting back on the early years of marriage. And this was my husband's story. He was good at what he did, trained as an engineer, worked at IBM, and was getting positive feedback and raises and different things. But it wasn't aligning with the meaningful work that he desired. 

 

There were a lot of hard times in that season, but he made the career pivot and now works with Chick-fil-A and we are blessed and benefited by it daily. [00:13:56] It's infiltrated so many areas of our lives. 

 

So I just want to encourage people if that is a little question or there's a little fire being lit with desire for this change to pursue it. I think you're such a great one to lead us on this journey. So whether we're returning to the workforce or someone is a professional considering a pivot into a new industry, what are some questions that we can begin to ask ourselves to uncover clues about our ideal career?

 

Dale Wilsher: There are many. There are many different ways to go after this. Some of the things that I have people look for... and I go through this in the digital course that I've created about finding ideal work, so that you can kind of look at it from different perspectives.

 

But one I call just emotional insights. So there's one category of emotion, the powerful emotions that speaks to meaningful work. Some of those examples are when you feel important or you feel proud, confident, valuable. [00:15:00] There's 13 in total.  

 

But if you go back and reflect on times that you felt that way, what was it that you were doing? And not necessarily just the role because a role is not why you do something. It's not the purpose behind it. It's just the "what". There's many ways to deliver your why. But you know, what was going on? Were you working with people? Were you teaching them? Were you collaborating? Were you designing or creating? What was going on when you felt that way? 

 

I also have people take a look at what their hobbies are, what their abilities or their interests are. I usually give lists because it's sometimes easier just to choose from a bunch of stuff and come out of thin air with these ideas. But those speak to usually things you're good at. So what does that say?

 

One of the things that has been my hobby for years is hot yoga. I love it. It's very athletic. A lot of professional athletes do it. It speaks to kind of challenging and empowering and strengthening my body, which I chose to strengthen people's souls and their meaning and the work I do. [00:16:08] But it's still kind of got a similar “why” to it. So looking at that. 

 

Also, you know, what podcast do you listen to? What do you read all the time? What are those things that really interest you? Start there. What are those categories? And then what school subjects did you excel in? Go back to that. 

 

One of my best courses in college, I couldn't even believe it was a course was logic. And I was like, I cannot believe this is a subject. This is just intuitive. This is inherent. And people are like, No, actually it's not.

 

And part of logic is seeing patterns underneath what's there. And that speaks to my why. That's what I do. I help people see deeper meaning in things. And that was speaking even back then that I saw patterns. I just didn't have words for it. So pay attention to those kinds of things.

 

I had a young client who had been out of high school for a couple of years. His name was Ben. He really had no idea what he wanted to do. He was kind of caught up in the pandemic where everything canceled. [00:17:10] He just really wasn't sure what his thing was. 

 

He always loved history. That was his favorite subject, the one that he excelled in in school. But when we went back through it, it had to do a lot with the teacher because Ben was very relational and needed to be in relational kinds of work. But also it was a lot about investigative thinking. The way that that teacher thought really kind of indicated that Ben liked to think as an investigator. And that's one of the personality types that we have in work is the investigative personality type. So that can speak to some of the major responsibilities or activities in work when you look at kind of what you love and how you were designed.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. When I hear you talking about selecting your elective, it makes me reflect back to the time when I had to confirm with someone like, "Wait a minute, you mean I can get paid to help people with their relationships. That's incredible." Each of us, it probably does look very different. [00:18:11]

 

I like how you said, sometimes you put out a specific list for people to grab onto that. So what is a sample list of values and how can we connect those with our to-do list to see if what we're spending our time doing is what actually matters most to us?

 

Dale Wilsher: That's a great question. I am a huge fan of people understanding their values and really articulating what matters most to them. Values are intangibles. Like hiking is not a value. It's an activity. But what it gives you might be adventure or it could be peace or solitude. Those are the values. 

 

Same thing with family. I used to have when my clients would do that, family would be always at the top and faith. Especially with me, I said, that's a group of people. What it gives you is the value. Do they give you connection? Do they give you warmth? Do they give you support? 

 

So we're always looking a little bit underneath to understand the values because that's how you align with a truly authentic life. [00:19:18] They are the desires that God has put in your heart. So some examples are authenticity, growth, responsibility, courage. I mentioned some of those: support, peace. 

 

I have a tool that I will… we can put in the show notes if you like, which is a life purpose chart that gives values that I see a lot based on personality type. It's not exact, but I usually find about 70% of a person's values align with their personality type. So it's just nice to have a little bit of a list so you can choose and what resonates the most. 

 

In this talk that I give on meaningful productivity. I do an exercise where I help people discern if they're just reacting to urgency or if they're truly doing what's important. And those would be values-based activities.

 

I have them list their to do list in a column, just on the left-hand side. Just write down the things that are on your to-do list for today. Now you could also list it for your goals for the year or your goals for the month, whatever it might be. [00:20:17] 

 

Then on the right-hand side, I have them list out at least three of their values, things that just matter to you. I used to give people a long list of values, but then I found it was shopping at Nordstrom like, well, I've never needed a pair of red shoes, but it looks great. So I'll take them anyway. 

 

So I try not to give people too many choices. I actually would rather ask questions and listen for the values that are elicited. But there are lots of lists online. 

 

Then list those out and then draw lines from your to-dos to the values that they honor. What often happens is that you're like, there's no value that this honors. You know, I had one mom tell me like, "I'm doing laundry. There's no value to that."

 

Actually, as we mined down and we talked about how it shows that she's loving her family or caring for people, or there was some spiritual significance and washing away, you know, yesterday's dirt. We talked about that. [00:21:19] 

 

But there are some things that we're doing that are just shoulds. They're other people's values. They're not really things that are authentic or needed at the time. So really being clear on what you're doing, is it attached to something that is deeply meaningful to you? That's an important way to discern how you're doing with your time.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

Sponsor: With over 1700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin.

 

In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on prospect. [00:22:23] 

 

In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet, but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments. Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even many storage units available in some locations. 

 

Leman Property Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.

 

Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@LemanProps.com. [00:23:23] You can also stop by their website at LemanProperties.com. That's LemanProperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today. 

 

Laura Dugger: Dale, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Holocaust survivor and psychiatrist who was named Viktor Frankl, but he once said that life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. I hear you focusing a lot on helping people with meaning and purpose. So with all of that in mind, how do you help people uncover their purpose in life?

 

Dale Wilsher: I love Viktor Frankl. In fact, I got COVID when COVID hit in like March, whatever, 20. My husband and I were down for two weeks solid. He worked at a medical clinic, got it from a provider. So we were pretty sick. We didn't go to the hospital. 

 

But during that time, I don't know why I chose to read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. And it was fascinating, but it honestly... it was his story of living through a concentration camp and how difficult that was and how he felt like besides the sovereignty of getting through that, that the reason he was able to survive is he was able to find meaning in those dire circumstances. [00:24:41] 

 

So I believe meaning is crucial. And a lot of it comes from the way we think about things. Then they've actually found that meaning comes from four things. It comes from people and our relationships. It comes from purpose, which I'll talk about that in just a second. It comes from positivity of really redeeming, which is what Viktor Frankl did, finding meaning in suffering and seeing the positive spin, the good in that, you know, Romans 8:28. And then participation. That's something bigger than you. 

 

For those of us with faith, it's the transcendence and the awe that we have toward God. So all of that. So when I go back through, I work on all those things with people. But purpose specifically, I help them by... I usually go through a process that's threefold. 

 

First, I really want them to understand their personality type. There are specific strengths and motivators and values that are usually aligned with each of those types. And I want them to understand who they truly are, not who they think they should be, that leads to personality mass, but who they really are. [00:25:44] And then again, to define those values. That's kind of how you deliver your why is through those values.

 

As I mentioned, authenticity and growth, and courage is a huge one, which has gotten me through some really difficult times. Before I went through kind of this epiphany when I was single and really not liking who I was. I was not liked by the people around me and I could only see my weaknesses.

 

I remember kind of thinking that I was going to have to be way different for God to really... for me to be more like Jesus. And it was in this moment that I was out shoveling the driveway with all the other dads that I was so grateful that I was gritty enough to do that and courageous and strong. I realized that my personality type that God had given me and all the values that went with that, that was a blessing, not a curse. That He had equipped me for the journey that I would be on. 

 

I have to say, I don't know if we all would have survived literally had he not given me this personality. [00:26:50] So that is very purposeful. You have to see through a lens of positivity. 

 

Then finally, when I do the ultimate kind of like "why" statement or purpose statement, I have a variety of methods. One is... many of y'all might know this. It's the five levels deep. Some people will call it seven levels deep, but you kind of define what you love.

 

Like if you love being a mom or you love doing a certain job, what do you love about it? And then you ask five times, why do you love that? And whatever the answer is, and why do you love that? And then why is that important? Why do you love that? And you basically get down to the bottom, which is the reason that you do what you do.

 

And when I did that activity for me, it's because I want everyone to steward every strength they've ever been given. I want them to live up to their highest potential. I want every opportunity that God has given more than we can ask or imagine to be realized by all of His people. So five levels deep is one great way. [00:27:50] 

 

Another great way, which is super fun is to determine or kind of figure out what your favorite movie was as a child. I do this when I have a deeper time with clients. Because what story sticks to your heart? Because you watched a million stories or you read a million books.

 

You know, we've all seen a lot of things. There are actually 9 million minutes in our first 18 years. But the things that stuck, whether that's our memories or the movies and especially who your character is, that speaks to something that is deeply purposeful to you. 

 

My movie was when I was 13. It was 1979. It's called Heaven Can Wait. And it was like, right, same year that Grease came out. But it was a big movie back then. It was all about this football player that died. They accidentally pulled him out of his body. He really didn't die. So now they have to put him back into his body and they don't have the right body so they have to go put him in some other ones. 

 

So the people that I loved in that movie were able to see beyond the outside, beyond the body to who he was underneath. [00:28:54] They saw him for who he was. And that spoke to what I do. I see deeper meaning in people.

 

So when I had one client whose movie was Top Gun, and I kept thinking all about Maverick. She goes, "No, no Maverick's not my person. Goose is." And her “why” had a lot to do with that she was this incredible support person that aligned with these really powerful people, very much like Goose did for Maverick. And she helps them see what is really meaningful in life that, because sometimes ambition can blind us. So it's a fascinating thing. 

 

I have one of my clients, her movie was Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. She remembers crying when she was like six years old because he couldn't play in any reindeer games. As we went through her why, her why is to see old things in a new way. She's actually an interior designer for historic properties. But she does that so that people and properties can shine very much like Rudolph's nose. [00:29:55] 

 

So think about it. What was your movie and what was it saying? Who is your character? What were they all about? That has significant meaning. 

 

Then the other part is kind of like, what's the world you want to live in? What's wrong with the world sometimes is the way we go after it. For me, it's a world where people don't tap their potential because they don't know they have it, or they didn't know it was available to them, whatever that might be. I want the opposite. That's a part of your why. So lots of stuff there, but lots of good stuff.

 

Laura Dugger: That is good stuff, Dale. It really sounds so worshipful when you present it, because I think you've said basically when we discover more about ourselves or the way that God created us, it does lead us to worship and stand in wonder of our creator. Again, this is just such worthy work. 

 

What are some examples of our values and purpose than lining up with an ideal career? 

 

Dale Wilsher: That's kind of where we take these ethereal concepts... and it's got to be practical. [00:30:57] That's part of what I don't like, just sitting in great ideas. I really want it to land and make it happen. One client who is a family practice doctor, her values were connection, encouragement, and comfort. And you could see how medicine was a good fit. Those wouldn't automatically say, "Oh, you should be in medicine." But it was a great fit.

 

Her “why” is to speak truth and bring light into darkness. So she has the freedom to do that because she doesn't work in a hospital. She works in a clinic where she has more freedom and she's able to speak into the whole person versus being a specialist. But she said that when people are hurting, they are more open to light. And that is an ideal environment for her to deliver her values and her why.

 

Another client, four children, needed to go back to work and was getting her degree as a paralegal. And her values were order and holiness, which really, you know, for a lot of that, it's like truth. [00:32:03] That there is a truth. And the law is very much about the truth. Compassion, support. These were all things that absolutely fit being a part of the legal system as a paralegal. There's no telling where she will go with that. I've seen it. I mentioned the client who did marketing. That was a bad fit for her in the position she was in, in that realm, because she really valued freedom and she valued communication and she valued health. And she wasn't able to do much with those values in her job.

 

So what we have been able to discern is that some type of teaching or training probably in health and nutrition. And now that it's looking at which of the ways that she could make that happen through a podcast, through joining an e-learning platform as one of their trainers, lots of different ways to make that happen. 

 

Another client was going back into the workforce after a divorce and she was the social butterfly personality. So her values were connection and fun and freedom, kind of similar to Kate's. [00:33:08] So she kept thinking that she needed to go work in a bank and be a bank teller. And part of that was because her ex-spouse was more of the improver personality type that does value accuracy and doing things right.

 

She kept thinking she had to be like him and do work like that, that's who she was. Actually, she found that that was a horrible fit and she was miserable. She found a lot of joy and a lot of opportunities for promotion in retail. She actually ended up working with a container store and right away negotiating for design work and higher salary. And really it was a beautiful culmination of who she was and her passions coming to fruition.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. That's really helpful to grab on to both those matches and the mismatches. 

 

Have you checked out our library of articles available at TheSavvySauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:34:17] If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox. 

 

Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. 

 

We hope you check out all the available reads at TheSavvySauce.com under the articles tab. Your previous episodes on The Savvy Sauce focused more around personality, which we're kind of alluding to, and that's another area of your expertise. So how does our personality impact the type of career that suits each of us best?

 

Dale Wilsher: It's an important part. You cannot neglect how you were designed when you were looking for how you were going to deliver your contribution. [00:35:14] Your personality is meant to give direction and to provide just an indication of where you can be more productive or you can be more satisfied, where you'll be more creative.

 

I talk about personality in a four-type system. That's what the book, What's Your Mom Type was built on. Goes way back to Hippocrates. But in those four types, there are specific environments that they thrive in and specific types of jobs. 

 

Ben, who I mentioned earlier, he's a stabilizer. Stabilizers are more service-oriented kind of behind the scenes. They're actually the biggest portion of the population. They do best working on teams. I see them a lot in the nonprofit sector. I see them a lot prioritizing relationships, being very caring and nurturing like in therapy or in some kind of counseling area. I see it and a lot of educational systems. I see it with support specialists. I see it in medicine. 

 

They do like established methods. [00:36:14] So they're great when they're in customer service or maybe even in banking, something that's already established. They don't do well starting their own businesses. They do well joining one, but that's not their ideal thing. 

 

Same thing with, say, the opposite who's the doer. Now they are a smaller portion of the population and they need to do work where they're rewarded for their results. So they need something where what they do matters and it contributes to a bottom line. Something where they can be independent, overcome a lot of challenges, be fast. 

 

My daughter, Caroline, this is her major type. I remember when she worked at Chick-fil-A as a 16-year-old and they tried her out in different positions and she killed it on a drive-through because she was so fast. And that's where it mattered. There are other places that you don't want somebody being that fast because then people feel run over. But when you are waiting for that fabulous chicken sandwich, you would like it to come out quickly.

 

And there's many books written on this. [00:37:15] You know what? I use Myers-Briggs. I use something called the Holland Code, which is really a job personality. I mentioned that the investigative is one of them. Some people are social, you need to be working with people or for people. 

 

So just investigating all these different areas of who you are, it can really start to create some themes that you'll notice. And then you can start to make some decisions based on that.

 

Laura Dugger: And just to go a little bit further with those four personality types, we kind of covered two of them that were opposite. Could you also elaborate a little bit more on the other two that are opposite of one another?

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah, you bet. So the improver, which is the more analytical detail-oriented, we could say precisionist, a lot of us in our negative we'll say perfectionist, you do well in environments that are more academic or even financial in a way that accuracy matters. You get rewarded for quality. 

 

Also, I've seen this a lot with physicians and lawyers and other types of jobs that have a lot of schooling because it takes a lot of patience in that academic realm to allow someone to really thrive there. [00:38:27] So I see them at higher levels of education, not necessarily at the younger levels, but maybe more academic, college-level settings. 

 

I see this in writers and editors. I see it in architecture. But something where critical thinking, it matters. So if your job was to just be in front of people. And certainly, you can speak. But you're going to speak in a more formalized way. So you think about is that the way to do it?

 

Usually something that allows you to do quality work. When my daughter, who's now at Children's, so pediatrics was perfect for her as the opposite of this type, but she was considering which specialty. And surgery for her was not ideal because that was very precise. The patients were asleep and she likes interacting with patients. So she's like, "Well, I would barely get to do that." And it was quiet. Again, it was all about getting it just right. She's like, "I don't love that." I said, "I agree." But if you're an improver and a nurse, that might be ideal. [00:39:27] 

 

So then the opposite is that social butterfly. I call them the connector, because that's what they're here to do is connect with people. So anything with high people contact is a must. They need to be able to interact with others because they're inspiring and influential and very optimistic. So they need places where they're not just to tell us what could go wrong. There are the ones who get to bring the hope and the joy. 

 

So environments where there's a lot of variety, they usually have a very high number of dopamine receptors. So variety feeds those. They love things that are fresh and new all the time, the ability to express themselves, to communicate. Those are all the kinds of environments.

 

I see that a lot in sales and marketing because they're very influential and persuasive. I see it in human relations or human resources, interior design. It's very creative. But again, you could be an improver and be an interior design. I believe Joanna Gaines from Fixer Upper is more of an improver because she's a little bit more deep and thoughtful. So her design and creativity comes out of that. [00:40:30] 

 

So it's really just understanding what your great gifts are and what is probably common to that. And also what your weaknesses are. Usually, the opposite type will fill in your gaps. When I was in graduate school, which was a highly academic environment, I was getting my PhD in molecular biology, that is an improver environment, and I'm not an improver.

 

My parents were, and I was always trying to get their approval. But I kept thinking, like, What is wrong with me? That I am just not excelling here. What is going on? And while I liked all the science, I didn't like just thinking of the theory. I kept wanting to make it practical, which when I finally... I felt like that's one of the first moments I heard God speak to me, like, I need you to leave. And I thought, Oh my gosh, that's going to be embarrassing to all those people who got me into graduate school.

 

And so I did. I took a leave of absence and I got a job with a pharmaceutical company, which was much more practical where I could do the science. But that kind of shame, what's wrong with me, it may be that you're in the wrong environment for your personality. [00:41:31] So always know what you're really, really strengthened to do.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. That's so good. I actually have thought of that question multiple times this week. Even in parenting, there are certain parts that I'll think, what is wrong with me? Why do I need so many outlets of adult interaction time? What is wrong with me? And I was realizing that's a little bit of a shaming question to myself. But I relate to that connector personality. It's helpful to connect that, that that is how God wired me, and then takes discernment to figure out how to fulfill my roles well and steward this well, and yet be wise in the way that I'm filled up so I can pour out.

 

Dale Wilsher: For sure. And aren't you in the perfect role as a podcaster? Communicating and inspiring and influencing people with your great gifts. By the way, since we're usually married to our opposites, usually we share values, but we have opposite personality types, the stuff that bugs us is usually not the stuff that bugs them. [00:42:35] So that's where we can start to think what's wrong with me. Like, this doesn't bother my husband or this doesn't bother my wife. It's like, it probably won't. But really understanding that, you know, usually the stuff that bothers us, it keeps us from delivering what is important to us.

 

So if you can't connect with others, that would be deeply hard. You know, that's not what you were designed to do. So I love that you're in this role. You're great at it.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you, Dale. You're always such an encouragement. You know that we love practical application here. So what are a few homework assignments that you recommend and how can they help?

 

Dale Wilsher: I think if you're considering what is meaningful and what is your purpose and how might you be intentional with your time, the first thing you need to do is block some time. I'm a big fan of some time management tools that prioritize these things that will get eaten up by the urgent.

 

So a time blocking tool is just basically a grid with all the hours in the day and across the top is each day of the week where you literally say from 10 to 11 or from one to four, you know, because maybe you have a break or maybe whatever it might be, or even within your own job, you're able to kind of move some stuff out of the way. [00:43:53] 

 

What time do you want to give that you can prioritize this kind of work? Because no one's usually sitting around waiting for you to figure it out. Not like they are waiting for dinner or waiting for their lunch to get made or whatever it is. So prioritize that. Use some time blocking.

 

Again, if you want to Google time-blocking tools, there's usually some great stuff out there. I like thinking big. That's when it's time to sit down and do some vision casting. A cool exercise is to write your eulogy. What would you want people to be able to say about you? Especially those meaningful relationships. What do you want to do before you quote-unquote, "retire"? You know, when you feel like at that point, you're not going to be given it all to whatever your area of service is. 

 

What do you want? Who do you want to help? How do you want to help? "I want to help" is not a purpose statement, but how you want to deliver that. You know, ask some big questions. Do that five “why” exercise that I talked about where you just constantly ask, why do I like this? And why is that important? And why do I like that? [00:44:55] Just keep going down five or seven layers. It's fun to do it with someone else because you'll reveal more in a conversation than you would just writing things down. So find a great friend to do that with. 

 

The other thing I think that's so important when you're considering this is to really notice who you're connected to. And I have people write out this list of your current 100 where you make a list of maybe it's your Christmas card list, but it's also your neighbors and their spouses and what jobs they have or who they work for.

 

You are connected to more people than you realize. And you are connected to some people who are probably doing some things that you might be interested in doing one day. And those connections, they call it the strength of weak ties. It's usually not your close-knit group. It's the layer or two out. They are the ones that are more likely to help you get a position than anyone else. So make a list of who you're connected to. [00:45:53] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. You're amazing at vision casting and giving us this big-picture view. Now, what is one small step we can take in order to make progress and not lose the momentum that results from an inspiring conversation like this one?

 

Dale Wilsher: That is so important, Laura. I'm really glad that, you know, there you are landing the plane. Because we can talk about good stuff, but we won't ever achieve it. We won't tap that potential unless we do something.

 

I think choosing one thing.  You know, is it that you want to know your “why”? Is it that you feel like you need to define your personality? You know, lots of people like lots of different tools. Whatever your tool is, make sure it's speaking to... make a list. What are your greatest strengths and who could benefit from those? Pick something that you really want to know.

 

Because I think the small step that will also keep this going is then get an accountability partner, get a coach, get a good friend who's also thinking about the same thing. [00:46:55] Tap into a study group, your Bible study group. Find some people who maybe want to read a book about purpose or personality and talk about what that speaks to and find people who can keep you in the game and also teach you about yourself. 

 

They can share some things that they love and respect and admire about you that you're probably not seeing in yourself.

 

Laura Dugger: And Dale, you would be a fantastic coach for someone. I love that you're somebody who now they're getting to know, and maybe they can look into your website and find next steps there. So where can we find out more about you online?

 

Dale Wilsher: Thank you. My website is yourauthenticpersonality.com. You can also find me by DaleWilsher.com. That will send you right to Your Authentic Personality. And there are pages for my speaking, but for my coaching.

 

One thing that might really be particularly helpful is the career kickstart digital program that I have. We're going to launch it again, I believe February 7th. We'll launch it three times in 2022. [00:47:59] Registration begins January 25th and ends on February 2nd. The course begins on February 7th and it will go through March 25th. 

 

So if you go to the page for career kickstart, it's a 30-day program, meaning you're going to get 30 days' worth of content, videos, and worksheets. And you'll also have opportunities to be in an accountability group and also have a couple of one-on-one sessions with me, if that's something that you're interested in. There's several levels. 

 

But that really is for all the different populations that we talked about. Whether you're retiring, whether you're gearing up for a whole new career or your first career, or you're just wanting to see what else is out there, that is a great tool to do it. You can go at your own pace, but you can also get involved in a community that's doing the same thing. 

 

So Your Authentic Personality, look around. There's lots of resources for moms. Certainly the book is a great resource. There's a course on the book. Certainly reach out. There's lots of places that you can contact me. If you have questions, I'd love to be able to talk to you. [00:49:04] Of course, I do individual coaching. If you're looking for something more customized or something that needs to be a little faster and you want some additional help, I'd love to be able to help you with that.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes of today's episode. You may remember that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dale Wilsher: Yeah, that's such a great question. I think without having a good phrase right off the bat, I think self-help, which a lot of times in Christian circles is frowned upon. I believe in self-help and the way that we have to understand ourselves. But self-help is supposed to lead to others' help. The reason that we know ourselves is so we can really contribute the best of ourselves to others. 

 

If you have something awesome in the bottom of your purse and you don't know it's there, it's never going to serve anyone. [00:50:03] So you need to be brave enough and humble enough to know who you are so that if it's time to take all of your strengths that are being used in a private sphere and move it into the public sphere, you will have the confidence to act. Because confidence is built on action. Rumination with all the overthinking keeps us from acting. But you cannot act and ruminate at the same time. So take some action. Get out there and learn and grow and tap your very full potential.

 

Laura Dugger: Always a great savvy sauce. It really reminds me... I just want to share one piece of scripture that I was camping out in this morning, and I think it relates to this talk and this charge that you've given to each of us. So it's from 1 Timothy 6:16 in the amplified version. And I'll just read it here. It says, "Pay close attention to yourself [concentrate on your personal development] and to your teaching; persevere in these things [hold to them], for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you." [00:51:13] 

 

So, Dale, I want to encourage you. Thank you for taking that verse seriously and applying it and encouraging and motivating all of us to do the same. I always look so forward to our time together because your energy and positivity is contagious. And I always learn so many new concepts. So thank you for equipping each of us today. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

 

Dale Wilsher: Oh, thank you, Laura. And thank you for that verse. I thought I had kind of tapped into every verse that was on this topic. And honestly, I had never put that one together. It was powerful. Thank you. Thank you for reminding us where this all comes from.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.[00:52:13] 

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:53:15] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:54:14] 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

168 Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner

168. Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner

 

“Day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts” Acts 2:46 ESV

 

Abby Turner is a young professional who is single and loving life as a food blogger, speaker, and writer. Born into a large family, she grew up in Central Arkansas, where she learned the importance of community and Biblical hospitality at a young age. After completing undergraduate degrees at Ouachita Baptist University and obtaining her Master's from Baylor, Abby lived in 6 states in 5 years, learning that community is essential to a healthy relationship with Christ. Over the last few years, Abby has spoken at college/universities, churches, companies and has been featured on regional TV shows and podcasts. Abby's passion is to encourage women to stop wasting time waiting for the perfect family, house, or table and to start opening their homes, cooking for friends and building community. You can learn more about Abby and enjoy even more recipes by visiting her website at atabletopaffair.com or on social media @atabletopaffair.

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What has God taught you is the most important piece of furniture in our home?

2. What lessons have you learned as it relates to the table that parties, serves, and welcomes?

3. How do you creatively add generosity and elements of surprise to keep this process fun?

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Living Table

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

167 Pursuing Health in Four Key Areas with Debra Fileta

167. Pursuing Health in Four Key Areas with Debra Fileta

 

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2 (NIV)

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What are ways to pursue health holistically, including physically in our bodies, mentally in our thought life, emotionally in our feelings, and spiritually in our souls?

2. What are a few of your tips to enhance our closest relationships? 

3. How would you describe the "why" for pursuing health in all these areas?

 

Debra K. Fileta is a Licensed Professional Counselor specializing in Relationship, Sex, Dating, and Marriage issues. She is a passionate author and national speaker who travels across the country spreading the message that healthy people make healthy relationships. Her work has been featured by numerous media outlets from national television to church ministries such as Saddleback Church, FreshLife Church, Focus on the Family, ChristianMingle.com, The 700 Club, NGEN Radio, KLOVE, and many more. She, her husband, and three children live in Lancaster, PA.

 

Debra is a regular contributor to publications such as Relevant Magazine and Crosswalk.com, with well over 250 articles across the web about love, marriage, dating, sex, and relationships. Her articles have also been featured in magazines and websites such as Today’s Christian Woman, Verily Magazine, Anne Voskamp blog, Proverbs 31 Woman, IAmSecond.com, ChurchLeaders.com, Converge Magazine, Charisma Magazine, Christianity Today, and many others.

 

She’s also the creator of the popular relationship advice blog, www.TrueLoveDates.com as well as the Love + Relationships Podcast reaching millions of people each year with topics of love, sex, marriage, relationships and emotional and mental health. Connect with her on Facebook or Instagram to get your dating questions answered and to learn more!

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

 

Are You Really OK?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com. 

I hope you can trust me, this is an episode you don't want to miss. Debra Fileta is a counselor, podcaster, and best-selling author, and she is my knowledgeable guest today. Consider this your one-stop shop for actionable steps to implement as you pursue a more fulfilling life. 

Debra is going to teach us helpful lessons from a recent best-selling book of hers entitled, Are You Really Okay?

Here's our chat. [00:01:18] 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Debra. 

Debra Fileta: Thank you so much for having me.

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just first start by telling us more about yourself and the work that you get to do?

Debra Fileta: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a homeschooling mom of four kids. That always surprises people. My youngest is eight months, and my oldest is 10. I'm also a licensed professional counselor, and I've written five books. I just love being able to teach the message that healthy people make healthy relationships. Sometimes we focus on the healthy people part, other times we focus on the healthy relationship part, but they really just go hand in hand.

Laura Dugger: I think one of your most quoted lines is that "just because we're a Christian does not mean that we're healthy."

Debra Fileta: Yes. Yeah, that is definitely something I say a lot. I think if you're the kind of person that resonates with that statement, then you're my kind of people. [00:02:22] 

Laura Dugger: Well, can you elaborate? How do you view our health holistically as a four-legged chair?

Debra Fileta: When we look at health, I think a lot of times Christians tend to zoom in on spiritual health, all the while neglecting all the other components of health. But as a counselor, I know that health is not just focusing on spiritual health. 

In fact, Scripture points us to the same thing. When Jesus' disciples asked Him, What's the greatest commandment? He said to them, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And when I look at that, I see a deliberate outline that Jesus gave us of what it looks like to love Him with our heart, which represents our emotional health; soul, our spiritual health; mind, our mental health; and strength, our physical health.

When I look at health, I'm not just looking at your spiritual health. I'm looking at all the other components: How you're doing mentally and emotionally and physically. [00:03:23] And oftentimes, those are the areas that really get neglected, specifically in the Big C Church.

Laura Dugger: That Scripture from Mark definitely requires us to holistically worship and come to God with every layer of our being. And I just love that you teach loving God and loving yourself are not mutually exclusive.

Debra Fileta: That passage goes on to say, "The next commandment is this: Love your neighbor as you love yourself." I think a lot of times we focus on the "love your neighbor" piece. But Jesus could have said love your neighbor more than yourself or love your neighbor, don't love yourself. But He actually just said it, love your neighbor as you love yourself. I think there's power there. When we love ourselves, we are loving who God created us to be, we are loving God's workmanship. And I think there's something really beautiful to the process of seeing ourselves as something valuable because of who we are in Christ. [00:04:29] 

When we value ourselves, we begin to treat ourselves in a positive way. We don't neglect ourselves. We learn to fill ourselves up. And I think out of the overflow of a healthy person, we can then love the people that God has placed in our life even better than when we're not feeling full, when we're feeling empty.

Laura Dugger: Just going back to that four-legged chair analogy, I'd love to unpack each of these legs a little bit more fully. You've mentioned them, but I'd love to cover pursuing health holistically, which includes physically in our bodies, mentally in our thought life, emotionally in our feelings, and spiritually in our souls. So let's begin with this. How does pursuing physical health benefit us in all other areas as well? 

Debra Fileta: Well, you know, science shows us that there is a body-mind connection that cannot be underestimated. [00:05:31] When we're fit physically, when we're focused on our health, it impacts the rest of our bodies, including our mind, including our brain. I mean, brain function is a huge part to the rest of the components of health, our emotional health, our mental health.

So things such as diet, exercise, sleep, even such as boundaries — I spend a whole chapter talking just about boundaries because I think boundaries really protect our physical health — they keep us from burnout.

There was a study where people who walked 20 minutes a day and they were diagnosed with clinical depression... they kind of put them in two different groups. They took a group that had clinical depression and they had them walk for 20 minutes and then a group with clinical depression and they just had them not walk for that period of time. 

Fascinatingly enough, the people who were active and walking had a decrease in symptoms of depression. And that's because physical fitness and physical exercise releases these feel-good chemicals that we call serotonin and dopamine. [00:06:38] And those neurochemicals are what help us stabilize our mood, stabilize our thought life, our anxiety, our depression. So it just goes to show you the power of focusing on our physical health as part of the equation of being healthy people overall.

Laura Dugger: Wow. I love that you bring that one to mind, even the specific 20 minutes. I think it's crazy because this morning... I now go on a walk every day and have for about a year and a half. And I keep a list on my phone, I call them my anchors, but things that make it like an exceptionally great day. What are little repeatable habits or behaviors?

I've been doing this walk consistently, but I was thinking even on days when time is crunched in the morning or the kids have something extra in addition to school, just 20 minutes, I've noticed, is the time for me that makes it so much better. So thank you for sharing some of the reasons. [00:07:39] 

Debra Fileta: There you go. You were following science and you didn't even know it.

Laura Dugger: I also want to just read a little glimpse of your book about another physical health benefit. So here's a quote from you. It says, "A lack of sleep or disruption of sleep can severely impact a person's emotional well-being and can be an early sign that something is going on underneath the surface. If you find yourself struggling more than usual emotionally, it's important to recognize that the lack of sleep hygiene could be a potential trigger. So often, sleep and emotional struggles go hand in hand, and dealing with one often brings stability to the other." 

I just think, Debra, that we undervalue sleep's impact on our health. So can you elaborate on that quote of yours and teach us a little bit more?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. You know, sleep is really the reset for your body. It's the time when your body gets recharged. [00:08:39] When you're struggling with sleep, there's two things that are usually at play. Number one, a lack of sleep hygiene. When I talk about sleep hygiene, even my editor in the book was like, "Is that a real word?" 

Like we hear about hygiene as in like showering and brushing your teeth and taking care of yourself, but there's actually a term called sleep hygiene. And that's about the rituals and rhythms and patterns that you have that help you sleep. You know, you can condition your body to get sleepy based on the things that you do before bedtime.

In Are You Really Okay?, I talk about things such as decreasing screen time or dimming the lights or having a certain ritual that you do before bed. All of these things signal your body, your parasympathetic system. That's the system that's in charge of calming you down, getting you relaxed, decreasing your heart rate, getting you ready to rest. It signals your parasympathetic system that it's time to rest. [00:09:41] 

And so sometimes not having good sleep is simply a lack of sleep hygiene. Like you haven't prioritized sleep. But sometimes a lack of good sleep points to some emotional struggles that maybe you haven't addressed. 

Have you ever had one of those nights where you can't sleep because you're just anxious about something? You're just thinking about this thing over and over again. Maybe it's something you have to do the next day, something you're anticipating. It's one thing when that happens, you know, one night, maybe there's a big thing coming up the next day. But if you begin to see that as a pattern in your life where you can't seem to shut down, oftentimes that indicates there's something going on underneath the surface emotionally. Maybe some anxiety, maybe some depression, maybe something that you haven't addressed. 

So sleep can really be our signal to how we're doing emotionally. And I think it's important to be in tune to how we're sleeping. 

Laura Dugger: We're just giving little tastes of each of these because the book goes into so much more detail. [00:10:43] But if we move to the leg of the chair, that's the mental part with our cognitive functioning or our thoughts. Can you elaborate on how thoughts impact other areas of our health and our life?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Scientists used to believe that when you felt bad, you started having negative thoughts. So maybe you woke up feeling depressed, and then you started having depressive thoughts, and it kind of just spiraled. 

But the most recent research shows us that it starts with a thought. Thoughts lead to feelings, which then lead to our behaviors. So maybe you have an underlying thought, feeling like you're not good enough. "Oh, I'm never going to get this done. I'm just not good enough for this." Well, all of a sudden, then that thought leads to feelings. Feelings of frustration, feelings of disappointment, feelings of insecurity. And then you act out of those feelings, your behaviors that you do. [00:11:44] 

Maybe you interact with somebody, and you're feeling insecure, and you don't speak up like you should. All of that stems from your underlying thoughts. 

So a huge part of mental health is taking inventory of the health of your thought life and getting to the root of where some of those negative thoughts come from. In Are You Really Okay? I list out what I call these negative filters. They're called cognitive distortions. And they're unhealthy ways of thinking that many of us kind of pick up throughout life without even realizing that we're doing it. 

So when I talk about mental health, I kind of want to divide it into two components. One of them is our thought life, but the other component is our experiences. And for many people, they've been through hard things like trauma. Trauma begins to write over your healthy thinking with unhealthy thoughts. For many people, they've been through something in the past, and they think, "Well, it's in the past. The past is in the past. Let's just move forward." [00:12:44] 

But they don't realize that when you don't deal with those things from the past, they can begin impacting how you act and think and feel in the present. And all of that lumped together is really what I would call our mental health.

Laura Dugger: I love how you explain this because all of these areas overlap. And so spiritually speaking, when we look at the Bible, and it talks about renewing our mind, and it gives so much time devoted to our thought life and what to do with our thoughts. It reminds me of a previous guest, Ken Baugh, and how he was elaborating that we can't really control our emotions. But with our free will that God gives us, He gives us tools to renew our mind, like you're saying, starting with our thoughts. And so this is very biblically based. And I love the science mixed in as well.

Debra Fileta: It is. It is. In counseling, we call it the process of training your thoughts. It's a big, important piece of therapy. We call it cognitive behavioral therapy. [00:13:48] When you come see me in my office, I'm going to help you rewire your thoughts, retrain how you think, get to the root of it. But really, when we look at Romans 12, God calls us to renew our minds and transform our thinking. God thought of this long ago. We're just now catching up. We're just now learning. "Oh, wait, this really does work. This really does impact our mental health and then our spiritual health, our emotional health." They're all kind of linked. Like you said, it's kind of four legs to a chair. It's this holistic process of healing. When you pass through one, it leads you to the next. 

So what I really want people to understand though, is that these things don't just happen with time. They happen with intentionality. You're not just going to become emotionally and mentally healthy just because you've become a Christian. You have to work at these things. 

When we come to Jesus, all of a sudden our blood pressure isn't exactly right, our cholesterol levels don't just bounce back to exactly what they need to be. Like we don't magically become physically fit when we come to Jesus, and we wouldn't even expect that. [00:15:01] But many of us in the faith, many of us who are walking with Jesus, make the assumption that all of a sudden those things in our past are gone.

All of a sudden those negative ways of thinking are gone. But that's not how it works. The process of sanctification means that Jesus is helping us heal all of these areas one step at a time. So it really requires us to be intentional as we're looking at all these components of health.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick and Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi Family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.

If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. [00:16:03] This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. 

They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "welcome to Sam Leman's". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. 

Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick and Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for "Sam Leman Eureka". You can also call them at (309)467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

Laura Dugger: When it comes to getting healthier mentally with our thought life, one practical application is called cognitive restructuring. [00:17:04] But just to demystify this part of therapy, will you explain what this is and how it can help?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Cognitive restructuring is really identifying the old negative patterns of thinking and then replacing them with new ones. The thing about your thoughts is they are always going to do what's easiest. So if you've had a pattern of negative thinking your whole life, guess what, that's going to be the easiest thought process for you. It's going to require some work and some intent to identify that negative thought and say, "Wait a second, that happened so automatically. I'm just so used to thinking that way, but now I recognize it and I'm going to replace it with the truth. I'm not going to allow myself to think that negative thought about myself because it's not the truth. Here's the truth. Here's what God says. Here is the truth of who I am in Christ." [00:18:01] 

And we begin to replace those old familiar thoughts with new healthy thoughts. And that takes some work but we call that cognitive restructuring. And really what it means is learning to renew our mind. But we can't do that until we start to recognize the old patterns, the familiar patterns. 

Have you ever gotten into the car? I do this all the time. I have young kids. They have their kid's music playing all the time in the background. And sometimes I go somewhere by myself and I turn on the car and all of a sudden their kid's music is playing, but I don't even notice it because I'm so used to hearing it that it's just kind of like the norm. 

So I drive for an hour or two... I'm running errands. I'm going to Target, I'm going to the grocery store and an hour or two later, I'm like, wait a second. Why am I listening to kids' songs? I could be listening to anything I want. That's just kind of an example of how our thought process works. 

Sometimes we're so used to the old ways of thinking that we don't even recognize them. [00:19:03] So it takes us to stop and take the time and energy and effort and sometimes help of a professional counselor to begin recognizing those unhealthy thoughts so that we can begin replacing them with truth.

Laura Dugger: Sometimes this is best seen in examples. So just to personalize this a little bit, could you give us an abbreviated account of your trip to Egypt, both with the dark side and the light side for contrasting how this cognitive restructuring can play out?

Debra Fileta: Yeah, I always talk about how we have a tendency to kind of see life either in a negative lens or a positive lens, even when they're both true. The question is, which side do I focus on more? In November of 2019, we took our kids to this big family trip to Egypt. It was this 12 hours on the plane. 

In Are You Really Okay? I kind of summarized that trip in two lenses. The first lens I'm focusing on the negative. [00:20:05] One of my sons gets motion sick and here we are on a 12-hour plane ride with him. Not only that, but you get to Egypt and it's dusty and dirty and you can only eat certain foods so that you don't get sick. The traffic is crazy. My 5-year-old almost got hit by a car at one point because there's just no rhyme or reason to the traffic. It's so hot and dusty and humid. 

You can see your trip through the lens of the negative. And all of those things that I just said are true. But you can also see it through the lens of the positive. The positive was my son who gets motion-sick was able to take some medication and got through the whole flight and did really well. We got there, it's a brand new world with new experiences, new foods. The sun is shining all the time. It never rains.

So for the kids to experience the culture, get to see the pyramids, go to the museums, ride a camel, all of these different things that we got to experience as a family, it was just a trip of a lifetime. [00:21:13] We had so much fun. 

Both of those stories are 100% truth. But the question is, which side do I tend to focus on? And for each of us, our lives have the dark side and the bright side. And each of the sides are 100% truth. But we have the power to decide which side we want to focus on and which side we want to live out of. And part of training our mind and our thoughts is learning to live out of the truth of who we are.

Laura Dugger: Goodness, Debra, that is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. When we move to that third leg now, you teach that ignoring our emotions doesn't make us spiritual, it actually makes us unhealthy. So can you give a few examples from scripture of emotionally healthy role models? 

Debra Fileta: Yeah. When we talk about emotional health, I think we have to realize that emotions are not just a gender thing. [00:22:12] I think sometimes we assume that women are more emotional than men. But the truth is, when we look at scripture, we get the exact opposite. We see that men and women are just as emotional. 

In fact, two men in scripture who were very in tune to how they felt were Jesus, number one. I did a deep dive study into Jesus in the section of emotional health and specifically the emotions of Jesus. Biblical scholars have identified over 39 different emotions that Jesus experienced and expressed just through scripture. And we know that there's more than that because according to scripture, if all the things about Jesus' life were written down, it wouldn't fit into all the books in the world. So we know there's so much more to Him than we can even see. 

But one thing that we definitely see is his emotional awareness. He was compassionate. He was sad. He cried. He grieved. He was in agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. [00:23:12] If you think, well, Jesus was emotional and He handles his emotions well because He's God, well, let me just point you to another man, David, a man after God's own heart. The Psalms are full of the emotions that David experienced.

Each and every one of us has underlying emotions. Maybe you haven't learned to express them or identify them. Maybe you come from a family where you didn't really talk about emotions and you kind of stuffed them. But one thing is going to happen. When we don't deal with our emotions in a healthy way, they will find the point of least resistance because emotions are kind of like a volcano. There's all of this pressure building underneath the surface.

And just like a volcano, when the pressure gets too much, when it gets too high, it will find the point of least resistance and come up through an emotional explosion. Sometimes that explosion looks like anger issues, anxiety, depression, addictions, maybe relationship issues. [00:24:15] You know, maybe we have conflict with our spouse or tension or issues that come up in our life.

But I think the underlying issue is, have I identified what's going on underneath the surface? Have I dealt with it in a healthy way? Or do I just continue to ignore it, to stuff it, and to think that is the way that God wants me to handle my emotions? But again, when we look at scripture, Jesus offers us a beautiful model of what it looks like to handle our emotions in a healthy way.

Laura Dugger: You also recommend getting a journal. How would that tie into pouring into our own emotional well-being?

Debra Fileta: Well, emotionally healthy people do three things. Number one, they can identify their emotions. They can name them. You know, like, this is what I'm actually feeling. It's not just I feel good or I don't feel good. But what am I actually feeling? I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling embarrassed. I'm feeling insecure. [00:25:16] I'm feeling hurt. I'm feeling overwhelmed. Identify those things that are going on underneath the surface.

Number two, emotionally healthy people express their emotions. I give you an entire journaling activity. Actually, Are You Really Okay?, as you've probably noticed, Laura, is not just one of those books you read. It's one of those books you work through because at the end of each chapter, there are journaling prompts, activities, homework assignments to help you check in on your health in each of these areas. 

And in emotional health, one of the things I have you do is keep an emotional journal. We call it expressive journaling. But really the point is to get your emotions out on paper. Get them in front of you. Begin to express them. Because just expressing them begins to help them lose their power, help take away some of that underlying pressure. 

So healthy people express their emotions. And then lastly, healthy people question their emotions because though our feelings are all real, we always feel real feelings, but that doesn't mean they're always true. [00:26:24] You might feel insecure and not good enough, but that doesn't mean it's the truth. Learning to question our feelings and align them to God's truth is a really important part of being emotionally healthy people as well.

Laura Dugger: You also write, emotional health and wellbeing are often influenced by our closest relationships. It's important to remember that and ask yourself how your closest relationships and interactions have influenced you. So, Debra, do you have a couple of practical tips for all of us to enhance our closest relationships?

Debra Fileta: I think it's really important to first take inventory of the relationships that we have in our life, especially the people who are closest to us. Look at the five people that are closest to you in your life and think about the type of engagements you have with them. Are you able to express your emotions freely and share what you're really feeling and experiencing? [00:27:24] Or is it a relationship where you kind of feel like you have to hide some of those things and not really be authentic? 

Because the type of relationships you're engaging in currently, in the present are shaping you. Not only that, but the relationships you've experienced in the past have shaped you. When you look at your emotional health and your journey toward health, so much of who you are today has to do with where you've come from. 

So many of the problems you face in the present are oftentimes rooted in the pain, wounds, experiences you've had in your past. And a lot of times that's our family of origin, the people who've raised us, how they taught us to handle our emotions or to express our feelings or to deal with the things that we're going through.

So I think first and foremost, it's really important to kind of take inventory of the people in your life today and ask yourself, are they helping me become healthier or are they holding me back? As we kind of begin to process those next steps in our relationships. [00:28:26] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's such a great reminder just to be deliberate about who we're surrounding ourselves with because it does impact a lot of areas of our life. 

Thanks to our friend Joy, thesavvysauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1st titled "Articles". I hope you check out these new Savvy Snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy.

As that final part of the chair, the spiritual leg. Spiritually, let's just look again at Jesus as our model. How did you see Jesus setting limits and boundaries that filled up his soul in order for him to then be able to pour it out on others?

Debra Fileta: You know, Jesus is such a good example of taking care of His soul. [00:29:28] He took the time to say no. He set boundaries. Sometimes He said, It's not the time, you know, right now is not the time. Sometimes He went to rest. I love the story of Jesus going after a long day of ministry, getting on the boat with His disciples, and going and falling asleep on the boat because He just knew his body needed to rest.

We see Jesus eating. We see Jesus making the time to get away and be with the Father, to pray, to fill up. He really took care and nurtured His soul. I look at that and I think, you know, sometimes Christians think the word self-care is a selfish, bad word. But what it really means is taking the time to allow God to fill us up in order that we can then overflow that fullness into the lives of the people around us. 

I think there's a really important thing to be said of being full people who are overflowing into the lives of others rather than empty people, because empty people cannot love and serve in the way that God calls us to love and serve.[00:30:39] 

So if we really want to be effective with our families, with our ministry, with the things God has called us to, a big part of that starts by making sure that we are feeling full and setting boundaries to keep us in a healthy place.

Laura Dugger: Your book, like you mentioned, it's so interactive. And I really appreciated your questions. And one of them that you challenge us to ask ourselves is do we go to the Father to get filled? And if you can hang with me here for just a second, in my quiet time today with the Lord, this old truth somehow made more sense to me today. I think it's in John, is it John 15, where it's talking about abiding with Him. And then John 1, where it says, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

And so when you tie that into abiding, one way to abide and fill our souls and come to the Father is simply by reading scripture with Him. [00:31:42] And for some reason, that was just very profound to me today. So I wanted to share that.

Debra Fileta: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much to be said in those spiritual disciplines of reading God's word, spending time in prayer, and memorizing scripture. But I also think we have to start a couple steps before that in the "why". Why do I do what I do? Why am I reading scripture? Why am I praying?

Because if we're doing it with wrong motives because we're afraid of God or we feel like if we don't do it, He's not going to love us or we've got to fill some sort of spiritual checklist, then maybe we're doing those things, but we're not actually using them to fill us up. I think the key is getting to the why. Do I really do this because I want to spend time with Him? Do I want Him to fill me up? I want to increase and enhance my relationship with Him. I see Him as someone who is good and who is for me. [00:32:42] 

I talk about in the spiritual health chapter. Sometimes our view of God is actually tainted by the hurts we've had from the people who've represented Him in the past. Sometimes we see Him through the lens of people instead of seeing Him through the lens of Jesus and his word. When we change our beliefs about God and see Him for who He is, it makes the process of going to Him and spending time with him and praying so much more meaningful because it comes out of a place of positive connection with Him rather than a place of fear or shame or worry. I think it really fills us up all the more when we come to Him and our why is in the right place.

Laura Dugger: That is such great clarification to go one step deeper and ask why. As we even tie all of this conversation together, how would you describe the why for pursuing health in all of these areas? [00:33:49] 

Debra Fileta: You know, Jesus calls us to live life abundantly. And I think at the end of the day, when we're healthy people, not only can we live our life more abundantly, but then we can more abundantly and with more intent and power and purpose pour into the people that God has placed in our lives. We can be more effective when we are healthy.

Healthy people make healthy relationships. And when we begin to get healthy standing alone, it starts to impact every other relationship and ministry, our family, our marriage, our children. And we can just live out the calling that God has put on our life in such a much more effective way.

Laura Dugger: Wow. I could not agree more. But now just for fun and to make this a little bit more personal, how do you actually juggle homeschooling and working and pursuing your own health in all four of these areas? [00:34:54] 

Debra Fileta: Well, let me start by saying this. First and foremost, God's grace. I think God takes the little loaves and fish that I have and he multiplies it. I feel like he helps me accomplish so much more in an hour than I normally would be able to without his help. 

But secondly, I've really learned... and my husband and I are both on the same page. We call ourselves no people because one of our favorite words is no. Maybe that doesn't sound very Christian, but let me tell you this: we've learned that we can only do a few things well. And so we focus on just the few things that God has called us to and say no to everything else.

So there's a lot of other ministry opportunities or kids activities that they could be involved in or our activities that we could be involved in or even some of our hobbies. But in certain seasons, we have to say no to so many things just so that we can kind of streamline and be efficient and focus on the few things that God has called us to do and do those things really well. [00:36:02] 

When you look at my life and I think I talk about this in one of the chapters, all the different things that I say no to in order to be able to say yes to the few things that God has called me to. I think being able to say no, you realize that for people who struggle to say no and say yes to everything, they end up feeling like they're spread too thin. They end up feeling burnt out. They end up accidentally and unintentionally saying no to the things that matter.

Like maybe you say yes to that extra meeting, but you're saying no to having dinner with your family that night. Maybe you say yes to that early morning interview, but you're saying no to quiet time with the Lord that morning. So for every “yes” you say, there's a “no” built-in, but it's unintentional. It's passive. It's passive. And learning to kind of take ownership of that and set boundaries around your life is one of the things that has really been life-changing for me.

Laura Dugger: And I think that's a way that you're living out. [00:37:01] I'm just going to paraphrase that there's the scripture from the Old Testament that says, do not turn aside to the left or to the right, but walk in all the ways that the Lord has called you to. That sounds like exactly what you're doing and we're benefiting from all of your work and your wise yeses and no's. So if people want to learn more, Debra, where can they find and follow you online?

Debra Fileta: My favorite place is Instagram right now. So you can find me at Debra Fileta. I'm also on Facebook. And my website is a relationship advice blog for every age and stage, from singleness to dating to marriage. It's called truelovedates.com and you can find more information about me, my books, my resources, and counseling practice there as well.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in this episode's show notes. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Debra, what is your savvy sauce? [00:38:08] 

Debra Fileta: I'm going to go back to a phrase you heard me say earlier. Healthy people make healthy relationships. For me, it's really, especially in this season, 2021, I say is the year of healing. You know, 2020 might have been the year of exposing all the things, but 2020 is the year of healing. For me, I continue to look in. I continue to work on my own personal journey of anxiety or depression or identity and seek to get healthy, as healthy as I can standing alone, knowing that when I work on myself, it's not in vain and that it will impact every other relationship in my life, including how I relate to my husband, including how I relate to my kids, including how I do ministry. So it's the best place to start because it's the one where I actually have some semblance of control over myself.

Laura Dugger: Well, Debra, I admire your gentleness and authenticity and just the way that you daily live out the recommendations you suggest to others. [00:39:13] You are clearly a woman of integrity and you really have benefited all of us by sharing this knowledge today. So thank you very much for being my guest.

Debra Fileta: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:40:15] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:41:15] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:42:15] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

166 Journey From Empty to Well Nourished Soul with Gretchen Saffles

166. Journey from Empty to Well Nourished Soul with Gretchen Saffles

 

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. John 15:4

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Gretchen Saffles is passionate about encouraging and equipping women to drink deeply from the well of God’s Word and to find their identity and purpose in Christ. She is the founder of Well-Watered Women, an online ministry that reaches women worldwide with the hope of the gospel, and the author of The Well-Watered Woman: Rooted in Truth, Growing in Grace, Flourishing in Faith. She has written several Bible studies including Redefined: Defining Identity through the Mirror of God’s Word and Esther: The Fingerprints of God. She is also the creator of the Give Me Jesus quiet-time journal for women, a tool to help women study Scripture daily. On any given day you can find her with a cup of coffee in hand, her boys by her side, a message stirring in her soul, and a God-sized dream on her heart. Gretchen lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with her husband, Greg, and her two sons, Nolan and Haddon.

 

1. Will you share more about the pit that led you to a transformative encounter with Jesus in college?
2. How did God begin to pour out His grace on you and even allow you to begin sharing your story in what felt like the midst of living your story?
3. Which relationships have impacted your walk with the Lord that you also wrote about in your book?

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: Fruitful

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Well-Watered Woman

 

Well-Watered Women Website and Instagram

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,600 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at MidwestShelters.com or visit them on Facebook. 

 

Gretchen Saffles is my guest today. She is the founder of Well-Watered Women, which equips women to be rooted deeply in God's Word. Now we get to hear her personal story of ways God has helped her up through storms in her life, and how He's given her delight through her obedience to Him. She also shares practical ways we can abide in Him and grow spiritually. 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Gretchen. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, can you just start us off by going a bit back and give us some context about your upbringing and your childhood dreams, and then eventually, a pit that led you to a transformative encounter with Jesus in college? [00:01:28] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. So I grew up in a Christian home in Texas and had parents who loved the Lord, who taught me the word, and I'm so grateful for that upbringing. 

 

When I was seven years old, the Lord called me to Himself and I gave my life to Jesus. And I remember just loving Jesus. He was my best friend. I would sing songs to Him, you know. It was like He was just always with me and I was always aware of Him. 

 

But as I grew older, we were always in the church. I ended up going to a private Christian school. I started to fall into this kind of pit of legalism thinking that as a Christian I have to be perfect all the time. Like, this is what I have to be. I have to live up to this standard of perfection and always be the good girl that I thought everybody expected me to be. 

 

The legalism and the struggle with perfection continued to just grow and amplify in my life. When I got to college, I struggled with a lot of insecurity. [00:02:32] I feel like I was very sheltered in a way, you know, when I was in my parents' home and went to a public, you know, university, and it was just night and day difference from what I'd come from. 

 

I struggled with comparison. Had actually gone into college. I mean, I'm sure everybody's heard of the freshman 15. With my, you know, whole legalistic perfectionism tendencies, I remember saying, "I am not going to gain the freshman 15. That is not going to happen to me." 

 

What ended up happening was the opposite. I started to fall into this pit of an eating disorder, of being very controlling over what I ate, thinking all the time about what I ate, exercising, and all of the above to where by the end of my freshman year of college, I had lost, I mean, over 20 pounds. The starting picture of me going to college and then the ending picture of that freshman year, it could not be any more different. [00:03:32] 

 

I remember I was blinded for a while by my struggle, by the eating disorder. I thought that I finally had arrived. I'd, you know, met my goals. I remember trying on some clothes one day with my mom and her looking at me with such concern in her eyes and just seeing tears. It was almost like God took these blinders off my eyes to see what I really looked like and what I was really struggling with. 

 

I feel like that was one of the moments where I just started to hit rock bottom. God was so gracious to just show me His grace and His love that endures forever in those moments where I felt like I had lost everything. You know, I had lost my beauty, my outer appearance, my confidence. I feel like I had lost maybe my reputation of, you know, being like the good girl who had it all together. And it just totally wrecked me. [00:04:28] 

 

In that time, God brought so much understanding and clarity, but also through the brokenness, He brought healing. I really believe it was through that brokenness that God set me free from a lot of strongholds that I wasn't even aware were really controlling my life. So I'm so grateful.

 

You know, I can see how the Lord in those early years, you know, He was forming me. He was showing me just his friendship and His kindness and his love. Later when I hit that pit, the bottom of that pit, and met Jesus there and just experienced His grace in a whole new way and the beauty and the power of the gospel that it changed me forever. 

 

Laura Dugger: It just makes me think of that verse that the kindness of the Lord is what leads us to repentance. And it sounds like in your mom's eyes, maybe you saw kindness there. Is that accurate? [00:05:30] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yes. Not judgment, not anger, but compassion and kindness and love and mercy. You know, she saw past what my body looked like and, you know, could see this struggle. And how much more does the Lord see past that? You know, He already knows the thoughts of our minds and the intentions of our hearts. He knows all of that even before we're aware of it. 

 

And so as He was making me even more aware. I feel like I understood the gospel in a whole new way because I thought the gospel was for people who had it together for some reason, not for people who were falling apart. I began to see that the true gospel of Jesus Christ. That He came to save sinners who are dead in their sins, who are separated from God, who are hopeless and hopeless without Him. And it is only by His grace that we have been saved. [00:06:31] 

 

God is so gracious. He doesn't save people who have it altogether. He is the only one who has it altogether. 

 

Laura Dugger: Amen to all of that. And it's so interesting, Gretchen, as you share openly your story. It makes me think of how clear it was for your mom as an outsider. It's something that you said you were blinded to. I'm assuming the world was giving you compliments and praises, and you said you had reached your goal for whatever size that was, and yet your mom had the spiritual eyes to see the wisdom of that emptiness. And that's so gracious of the lord to let the scales fall off of your eyes and not be blind. 

 

But what did your path to recovery and healing look like? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: You know, I think everybody wishes healing and recovery was just like an overnight flip a switch on and the lights come on, And it's not. I mean, when I think of that path to recovery and to healing, a few other things that come to mind. [00:07:34] 

 

One of the very first important things was bringing other people into my struggle. For so long, I had been battling this, and I thought it was between me and the Lord. But other people could see this struggle. You know? They could see the stronghold. They could see the way that my body was looking different, the way I was spending my time, the way I was eating. 

 

And so as I began to open up about it to people who were trusted and to people who I knew would encourage me and point me to Jesus, that began to bring some freedom. Because when we step out of darkness and into the light through confessing to the Lord and then also sharing it with other people, God begins to start that healing process. 

 

I was involved in a local church at my college and my pastor's wife was somebody who I had gotten to know really well. She was kind of mentoring me as I would come into her home and just help clean and, you know, do whatever I could to be around her. [00:08:34] 

 

So bringing those people into my life just made a huge difference. And then Christian counseling. I still go to Christian counseling. I just believe so firmly in the power of having a wise counselor to listen and to help us see things. And so seeing a Christian counselor who helped expose the stronghold of perfectionism that I had and kinda helped me see, like, not the fruit of the eating disorder, but the root of it, that was really helpful.

 

And then memorizing scripture. Oh my goodness. I wrote down so many scripture verses on note cards and took them with me everywhere. This was before you had the Bible on your phone. You know, right now, it's so accessible to us. There's apps for scripture memory and all that stuff. But none of that stuff existed when I was walking through this fifteen years ago. So I would carry these little scripture cards with me all over the place. 

 

When I was studying in the student hall, I would have these verses there, and I would just go through them over and over. [00:09:38] They were healing to my mind, and they were also replacing these wrong thoughts that I had.

 

But overall, healing was slow. I mean, it was slow and it was long. In that though, in that slow healing, God was doing more than just healing my body. He was healing my mind. I have seen over the past fifteen years that God is so much greater than the strongholds that we're struggling with, and He is able to restore our souls.

 

Satan will try to steal our joy and our identity and label us with shame and our struggles, but ultimately, it's what God says about us that has the final say on our lives. 

 

Laura Dugger: How did God begin to pour out His grace on you and even allow you to begin sharing your story in what felt like the midst of living your story as you were on this healing journey? [00:10:38] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Well, I remember thinking that I was alone. You know, we all think that when we're walking through some kind of struggle. Like, It's just me. I'm the only one struggling with an eating disorder or anxiety or fear or whatever it is. And that's one of the ways that I think Satan keeps us in the darkness is believing that we are alone and that we'll be judged for what we're struggling with instead of allowing us to enter into Christian community that, you know, ultimately the body of Christ, it's this picture of Christ, like the hands and feet of Jesus. So there's so much healing that comes through that Christian community. 

 

I remember just feeling like my Christian witness was ruined thinking I have just totally blown it, and I've ruined everything. You know, that was just the thought process that I had. And I remember just praying and just saying, "God, if this is part of my story now, which it is, then use it for Your glory in some way." [00:11:38] 

 

I remember just sitting with a friend and we were eating and just kind of seeing some patterns in her. I was like, "I think she may be struggling with what I'm struggling with." And again, this was a girl who was leading, a strong believer. I just shared with her, you know, I said, "Hey, can I just share with you something that I've been struggling with and what God's been doing in my life?" 

 

And so I kinda told her about this eating disorder that I was really battling to overcome and just kind of how it had impacted me and what God was teaching me. And she looked over at me just with tears in her eyes and said, "I have not told anybody this, but I'm struggling with the same thing." 

 

And we were able to just walk with each other, encourage one another. I've seen God just bring healing in her life, which is so incredible. And so, you know, the more I was willing to share my story and to be, you know, a vessel of the Holy Spirit, to pay attention to those nudges that He would put on my heart that, you know, He opened up these opportunities to set others free as well. [00:12:47] 

 

That's one of the beautiful things is that our brokenness, they're not the end of our stories. They become part of our stories and our testimonies, an opportunity to share of the gospel of grace, of what God can only do to bring us healing and wholeness through his son, Jesus Christ.

 

Laura Dugger: That is such a powerful takeaway, that we are always invited at any point of our stories to share our stories. We reference this verse a lot at The Savvy Sauce, but in Revelation, it talks about the way to overcome Satan really is by the blood of the lamb and the power of our testimonies. So I appreciate you sharing yours. 

 

And just a really practical piece, with your friend, you said you noticed some patterns. Are there any indicators that we could notice in our own friends that maybe we could call this out in a loving way as well?

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. So for me specifically, you know, I was very restrictive about what I ate, you know, very obsessive over calories and fat content, whatever it was. [00:13:54] I was also over-exercising. So it wasn't major idol in my life. Like, I wouldn't take the bus to class. I would only walk, which meant that, you know, sometimes I was really cutting it close to get to my next class walking two miles to get there instead of just taking the bus to get there. You know?

 

Then my body was changing. Like, it was very clear. My pants weren't fitting. My face was looking very kind of swollen and sunken from losing so much weight. I had noticed that in my friend as well that, you know, when I would eat with her, she would only eat, like, a yogurt for lunch or she would exercise a lot and all the time. So I saw those patterns of legality in eating and exercising and also the way that, you know, I would think about it all the time and I would talk about it all the time. I noticed that in her too. [00:14:53] 

 

When it comes to eating disorders, there's also just overarching disordered eating. So it's not just I struggled with anorexia, but there's bulimia and anorexia. And I think those are the things that people think about the most. But, you know, there's also other forms of disordered eating, like crash dieting, constantly being on a cleanse or I have to do this, this, and this in order to be okay. 

 

And so whatever it is, if you see this kind of obsession tendency of like rule following when it comes to eating and exercising. I think those can be some kind of warning signals. I needed people to be there for me instead of trying to fix me. The process to healing was slow and long. I needed people to just encourage me and to walk with me and to let me know that this wasn't going to be forever. 

 

If you see somebody like... I had people that pointed it out to me in ways that were unhelpful, that felt very judgmental and scary. [00:15:54] But the people that came alongside of me and said, "I see you. I know that this doesn't define you, and I'm going to walk with you in this journey of the healing," those were the people that helped me the most.

 

So I want to add that into that, if you do see somebody, not to point it out in a way that feels judgmental, but to say, "Hey, I've noticed some things. Is there anything going on? How can I pray for you? How can I encourage you? How can I walk alongside you in what you're walking through? 

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:16:27] <music>

 

Sponsor: With over 1,600 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. 

 

In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF medical center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. 

 

In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. Their beautiful spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments. 

 

Leman Property Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful office staff and maintenance crew, including several employees with over thirty years working with this reputable company. Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even mini storage units that are available in some locations. 

 

So make sure you check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at midwestshelters.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.

 

[00:18:07] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Can you share the story of how you met your husband? Yeah. We actually met at middle school camp, except we were not in middle school, we were working at a camp at a church. I had never dated anybody. I'd made a commitment to the Lord when I was in middle school that I wanted to not just date around, I wanted to really wait and be very clear about who God was calling me to date and get to know people. 

 

And so that was not, you know, I graduated college and thought, oh, you know, my plan when I go to college, I'm going to get fall in love and get married and graduate with my MRS degree. But that did not happen. I graduated single, having not dated anybody seriously. 

 

I had graduated and was wondering, God, what do you want me to do with my life? Because this is not what I was thinking. Through just His sovereignty and His wise plan, I ended up working at a church in Tennessee and I ended up going to intern for the middle school ministry. [00:19:09] 

 

And I remember thinking, "Okay, well, I'm never going to meet my future husband here. I'm going to work with middle schoolers. Clearly, I'm not going to meet my future husband." So it was just kind of funny because I felt like I went to work at this church going, "Okay, Lord, I surrender this to you." 

 

And while we were at the middle school camp, I ended up meeting Greg. It was on 80s night, so they have different themes for each camp night. And I looked totally ridiculous in an 80s outfit. And I remember meeting him, and he said his name was Greg Saffles, and I was like, "Saffles? Wait. What's your last name?" He said, "Saffles, like waffles."

 

Now that's pretty much what I always say to people because it's hard for people to know, like, what Saffles? Even though that's not technically how you say it, you don't say sapples. So we met and at first, you know, I remember just thinking, "He is really different from everybody." [00:20:04] I would see him just being so servant-hearted, so humble, just worshiping the Lord and being there for others.

 

I was still pretty guarded, though. I was not just going to start dating somebody. So we ended up just getting to know each other for six months. I stayed on board at the church and started working in the women's ministry. It was funny because he would always come to the women's ministry events. We needed someone to do sound and he always volunteered.  And I loved it because I'd get to hang out with him. 

 

So we were just friends. And I made that very clear. I was like, "We're just going to be friends because I know it would be a big deal if we started dating because we're both on staff at the church. I'd worked in student ministry. 

 

That January, my windows were frosty every day, you know, because it's cold in Tennessee. And I'd wake up and somebody had scraped my windows. And I was like, "What is happening?" Because I lived with a roommate and her windows were all frosty. [00:21:02] I'm like, "Why are my windows being scraped off?"

 

Eventually, I found out that he was waking up really, really early to come scrape off my windows just to serve me. I mean, once I discovered that, and we talked, we started dating. And then we were engaged four months later and married five months after that. So we joke about meeting in middle school camp, but, technically, we were older than middle school.

 

Laura Dugger: That is amazing. I love hearing that story of the way that he served you well. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: At that season of life, did the two of you have similar visions for your future life together or your career aspirations? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: I always thought I'd marry... My dad was a pastor. My sister married a man in ministry. So I was like, I'm going to marry a pastor or a worship pastor. Greg was neither of those. He worked at the church, but he did the creative ministry, and just different than what I was expecting. [00:22:01] 

 

He was this man that, and he still is, is just like a behind-the-scenes servant. Always there to help others and to do whatever, you know, to make things just joyful and helpful to them. As we started to get to know each other, I realized just his heart for the Lord, his desire to just honor God and whatever he was doing.

 

It was funny because back then he talked about seminary, and that's still something we're talking about and potentially pursuing. So we really did. I mean, the more we got to know each other, we realized how similar our passions were and that even some of the things we were passionate about, like going on adventures and things like that, we were able to bring that out in each other. So it was fun because I feel like we were able to be even more of ourselves with each other. 

 

I mean, we're very different. I'm the talkative, want to get to know everybody. He's more the quiet, you know, behind-the-scenes, introvert. [00:23:03] So we are opposites in some ways, but in a lot of ways we're very similar.

 

Laura Dugger: As we look at that season of life, that's when you were transitioning into a new career. And I've heard you say before that Well-Watered Woman began as a big dream in a small apartment in Tennessee. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Can you just elaborate on those small beginnings? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. We got married that November, and he was still in school. So he graduated that December, and he'd been offered a job at a church plant of the church we'd been at. So we knew we were going to move from Nashville to Knoxville. We had kind of a delayed bigger honeymoon just because of his school and our jobs at the church. That was just a busy time.

 

Later that December, we went to Hawaii, and it was so much fun. And when we were coming home from Hawaii, we found out that my mom was in ICU with a very rare autoimmune disease. [00:24:05] So we came back from this high of just the best honeymoon to a crisis. A major crisis. 

 

And we moved not long after that to Knoxville, and I didn't get a job at first because I was going back and forth from Georgia to Tennessee to help take care of my mom. God really used that time to kind of shift my priorities. Like, okay, I really was able to see how fleeting life is. Greg was really gracious even though we were making no money, like barely getting by. He just encouraged me, "Okay, now's the time. If you want to try something new, let's dream about it. Let's make something happen."

 

So I took some time during all of that, you know, going back and forth while my mom was in. She had to go to a rehab facility to learn to walk again from this autoimmune disease. So during that time, I was dreaming, Okay, what are some things that I would love to do someday? 

 

So I ended up coming up with this idea to create my own Etsy business. [00:25:05] Again, we had no money, no resources, so I would just go to garage sales and thrift stores and Goodwill and find old things that I could make into something that would be useful and enjoyable to somebody else. 

 

I did that for nine months to a year. But I knew that that wasn't what God was calling me to do long term. I'd always had a heart for ministry and wanted to work in like girls ministry or something. And so I ended up, you know, having this desire to create a quiet time journal for women that would help them get into the word. And that was just for my own need. I knew I wanted something that would be exciting and engaging and inviting to open my bible each day and spend time with the lord, and I had no clue how to do that. 

 

But I was leading a college small group at the time at the college that was there, and one of the girls that started coming to group was a design major. So I was like, "Hey, I have this idea to create this. Can you kinda show me how to design it? I can sketch it out for you." [00:26:09] 

 

So she showed me, and I used the little bit of money that I had made from my Etsy random store that I had to create these quiet time journals. Once I started doing that, I knew, okay, this is what God called me to do, to create resources to help win and get into God's word. 

 

So started creating the Give Me Jesus journal, different Bible studies and just tools that would help women be excited to open their Bibles. It grew pretty quickly from there, and we found ourselves shipping all this stuff from this itty-bitty apartment. 

 

One of my friends came on board with me and took over the shipping responsibilities so I could just create and write and do the things that I felt really passionate about doing. Since then, we have grown. We have a warehouse in the Atlanta area, and I think there's maybe like 16 girls that work with us now from the warehouse side to the design and writing and all those different aspects of what we do. [00:27:11] 

 

So it's been really cool to see how the Lord has just provided. Obviously, there's so many twists and turns in anybody's journey in the road that we take. But even along those, it's all part of God's plan, and He works through every single thing. So even the things that may feel like failures or major dead ends, God is still working through them, and He's forming our hearts and our minds so that we can be more like Christ. So, ultimately, at the end of the day, that's what I long for is to know Christ and to make Him known throughout we do. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think you're doing an incredible job with that. It does help to have a fuller picture of those high highs and those grand experiences, but also remembering those small beginnings. With your mom, what is the current situation? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: So she still has this autoimmune disease. It's somewhat under control. It can still flare up. Autoimmune diseases, you know, they're all different, but a lot of times they can kinda manifest in similar ways. But it's a hidden illness, a lot of times they'll call it. [00:28:18] 

 

So, what she had attacked her central nervous system, like her spinal cord, her immune system attacked it, which caused that paralysis. They were able to treat it with steroids. So she is constantly battling different pains and just the effects of the disease, but she has done that with such grace and relying on the Lord. It has really allowed me to see what it means to trust God and to live for what is to come instead of for what is right now. Because right now, we will walk through suffering and through very, very hard things, but God, He's so faithful, and He's with us in them.

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. But I just think that had to be such a tough season coming home from this amazing honeymoon experience into a very new reality. But you have your roots dug so deep into the Lord that it sounds like He's been with you, and he's prepared you for some of that. And I love this resolution that you have to put the word over world. [00:29:25] Will you tell me more about that? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: So that was several year... I'm thinking that was, like, 2017 when I kinda came up with that little phrase "word before the world". It was because I love the end of each year to kinda go back and evaluate, like, what happened? What are some things that I would love to work on in the new year? I love that season. Some people don't care about it, but I just think it's really fun. I'd always made some sort of resolutions: Oh, I want to exercise more. I want to eat better. I want to do this project. You know, just very kinda typical. 

 

But that year, I'd really seen that I was struggling with waking up and just grabbing my phone because I would sleep with my phone next to me. So I'd go to bed looking at it, wake up first thing, and look at it. And it would really start my day the wrong way because I'd see an email that came up that was discouraging or a text or something on the news or something on social media to compare myself to, whatever it was. [00:30:25] 

 

Then I would realize, like, it kinda just dampened my desire to even be in God's word, and I wanted that to change. I knew that if anything else in my life was going to change, it would only happen by the grace of God by putting His word first. Ultimately, that is what I needed. 

 

So, I kind of was thinking, Okay, what's the one thing? If I could just work on one thing this year, I wanted to put the word before the world. So that's where it came from. And I shared about it. Essentially, it's a commitment to hopefully read God's word before we pull up social media and begin our day, but also it shifts our priorities in so many ways and changes the way that I view my time with God, the way that I view my days in general. And rather than penciling in time with the Lord, I want my days to revolve around Him. 

 

I'm not perfect at this. It's still a struggle to get into God's word first thing. Sometimes I can't first thing because I've got young kids and they've already woken up and they need me in that moment. [00:31:27] But, ultimately, that still goes through my mind: I want to put the word before the world. Like, I want to spend time with that today. 

 

Because I think that the term quiet time can carry with it a lot of negative connotations. People think, oh, quiet time, it needs to be quiet. It needs to be perfect. It needs to be this long. It needs to look like this. And we put all these stipulations on it to the point we don't even spend time with God because we think it has to look a certain way.

 

Ultimately, this is just about, like, show up. I mean, God is already with you. He is faithful. And to know that He is speaking and He is working in your life. And we can meet with Him wherever, whenever. So it's a lot bigger than just the whole wake up and try to read the word first thing, to put our minds on Him. It's about centering our days and our priorities around Him and His desires.

 

Laura Dugger: Love that paradigm shift. 

 

Are there any topics or questions or guests you specifically want us to host this year? We value your input, and we would love to hear from you. [00:32:30] Email us anytime at info@thesavvysauce.com, or reach out to us on social media. We're on Instagram and Facebook @TheSavvySauce. We love connecting with you, so we hope you continue the conversation with us today. 

 

I love how you say that this is such an exciting time of year for you that you like reflecting back on the past year and then looking ahead. And I'm with you. I totally geek out this time of year and love January 1. If somebody's inspired to put Word before the world, then maybe they can learn something else from you because regarding your personal walk with God, you also talk about this acronym ABIDE. So will you share about each of those five parts of our spiritual journey? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. It's kinda funny this ABIDE acronym. I was studying John 15. I love that passage. Jesus is talking about what it means to live the abundant life. And it comes from obeying Him, being His disciples, and remaining in Him. [00:33:32] 

 

So I was studying this, and I actually was preparing to give a talk to some girls that were leading at Winshape camps and came up with this, Okay, how do I actually take what Jesus says in John 15? Since it's so important. Abiding in Christ is not an option. This is part of what we do. This is our life. 

 

So I wanted to come up with something that actually give it handles. You know, how do we actually do this? So I came up with this ABIDE acronym that comes directly from John chapter 15. 

 

So just to break it down, the first one is to accept pruning. And that's the very first part of John 15 where Jesus says, "I am the true vine and My Father is the vine dresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes that it may bear more fruit." 

 

So this is one of the basic parts of being a Christian is pruning. That God is constantly working in our lives, you know, removing sin, removing parts of our flesh so that the Spirit would be made evident. [00:34:36] I've been memorizing Romans 8 for a really long time and I finally am pretty much there. But I have just really begun to see how important it is that we are led by the Spirit. 

 

And in order to do that, we have to accept the pruning of God. This can come through so many different circumstances. I mean, it came through my eating disorder. He was pruning these different thoughts and beliefs that were not of Him so that my life could bear more fruit so that I would not be attached to that false spine of an eating disorder. So to accept pruning, not to push back when the pruning shears come, but rather to accept it as a gift from the Lord so that we can bear more fruit. 

 

And then we Believe his word. He talks about abiding in Him and His word. That the person that bears much fruit is the person that is obedient to God's word. And so to believe His word, not just to say, oh, yeah, I believe that. But when the rubber hits the road to really say, no. I don't believe that. I don't believe that God is good or He is faithful. [00:35:39] So to really believe His word. In order to do that, we have to know His word, and we have to see His faithfulness shine through in every moment of our lives. 

 

And then we identify false binds. You know, there's so many things that we try to attach ourselves to. So going back to the eating disorder because I've talked about that a lot, I was attaching myself to this false vine of if I just looked a certain way that I would be loved, if I weighed a certain amount that I would be beautiful.

 

And so I attached myself to that thinking that that's my identity when ultimately our identity becomes Christ as believers. He is the one who lived the sinless life and gives us victory every day. He's the one who leads us to abundance. Jesus, again, He starts out, "I am the true vine." There's so many false signs out there, but only Christ is the true vine. 

 

And then Delight in Jesus. That's the D of ABIDE. So we delight in Him. [00:36:39] I think we forget about this a lot. In our walk with the Lord, we can just come to it with this legalistic checklist mentality rather than just delighting. I delight in my husband. We have so much fun together. You know, we love to spend time together. How much more should we love to spend time with the Lord and just delight in Him and His goodness and His provision in everyday life? 

 

Then lastly is Enduring with joy. So we're going to walk through hard times. There is so much need for endurance in the Christian life, and we cannot endure without being rooted and attached to the vine. So we endure with joy. I mean, Jesus says that He does all of this for the joy set before Him. And He says in John chapter 15, "These things I have spoken to you that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be full."

 

His desire is for us to be full of joy. And He knows that the only way we can experience that full joy and that abundance is through abiding in Him. So that's from John chapter 15. It's basically verses one through 13. And we want to abide in Christ because that's our joy, our connection to Him, and that's what gives us the endurance and the delight and the perseverance we need in this life. [00:37:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: John 15 is definitely one of my favorite chapters of the Bible. I think that and Proverbs 3 are my two current favorites. I just have to say one more scripture from John 15:4 kind of sums up what you're saying. "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me." I just love this time of year, especially John 15 comes to life. And if anybody wants to refer back to some teaching on John 15, I'm going to link to the fruitful episode in the show notes as well. 

 

But, Gretchen, we haven't even talked about a recent resource that you've made available. When I was reading your book, Jesus models how solitude and time alone with God is important, and you teach that the Christian life is also important to be lived with others, not just by ourself. So right. Will you share some of the relationships that have impacted your walk with the Lord that you specifically wrote about in your book? [00:39:06] 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Yeah. I'll think of three right off the bat. I talk about my papa a good bit and how his love for the Lord and his walk with Him has had just a tremendous impact on my life. That's why I created the Give Me Jesus quiet time journal was based off of reading his Bibles and seeing how he poured over the scriptures and prayed, and he studied the scriptures, and he loved them, and he lived them. My papa really modeled this. He walked through great, great, great suffering in his life, and yet his hope was in Jesus. 

 

Then my mom, just all of the things that she has faced. So my papa, that was her dad. So my mom has just walked through great physical pain and suffering. And in all of that, she just remained attached to the true vine, so many times where I probably was like, "I don't know how you're doing this. I'm barely getting by." She would say if she was sitting right here, it's all His grace. It is all His grace. [00:40:10] 

 

Then Karen. Karen was a mentor of mine. She went to be with the Lord. Goodness. It was three or four years ago now. Thinking it was four years ago. When I first met Karen, she was battling cancer, about with cancer again. She had walked through so much pain and suffering. 

 

She had lost her husband, her first husband, in this tragic incident where he had taken her boys camping. She and her husband had three boys, and they were on top of a mountain. It was actually December 31st. It was the last day they were going to bring in the new year doing this camping trip. 

 

He was a pastor, and he was with the boys, and he had looked out at just the beauty of the mountains and creation all around him and just said, you know, Boys... he was just marveling at God's goodness and creation, and then they heard a rattle and he was gone. He had fallen off the cliff. They never heard anything. The boys never saw anything. [00:41:10] They didn't know that he'd fallen off the cliff. They didn't find that out until the next day, and it was just like the Lord took him. 

 

One day, and I think this was months later, she was just out shopping and walked into a Thomas Kinkade art studio and was looking at the art and came across a piece of artwork that just stopped her in her tracks. And she said, "Where did he paint this? How did he know about this? And she was so confused. 

 

When she looked at this art piece, and it was very different from Thomas Kinkade's regular artwork, if you have ever followed him. He paints a lot of these cottages, really is just incredible at painting different light. But this was of a mountain and it was high mountain and it had a cross on it. 

 

She was looking at it and it was the mountain. It was the mountain where her husband had died. The cross had been placed where her husband had been. I mean, down to the specifics of the bushes that were on the mountain, these certain bushes. [00:42:12] I remember her telling me about them. 

 

So she contacted him and said, "I'm going to share my story with you. I don't even know how this has happened. Only the Lord." Thomas Kinkade got back in touch with her, and he had actually had this kinda vision, this idea for this painting that December. And it was very different from anything he'd ever done, and so he was working on painting this mountain scene. And I believe that he finished it around the time... the end of that year. I mean, he literally painted this mountainside where her husband died and had no clue. So it was so cool. 

 

He actually invited her, and she was able to come share her story. He sent her a copy of the painting. So when I would go to her house, it was up above her fireplace. And she had little tracks that she would show people. And it was just her story of God's goodness and His provision. [00:43:10] That even in her great loss that God had such a bigger story. He was working on something so much bigger for His glory. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. That is so powerful. It leaves me speechless. Well, Gretchen, you're in so many leadership positions with work leading a team of women, and then as a mom, leading your children with Greg and prioritizing your marriage. Like you said, your husband even works for Winshape Marriage. So what are your best practices specifically as it relates to all of those important areas of life in leadership and family and marriage? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Ultimately, I go back to Matthew 22:28. The first and greatest commandment is that we would love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our mind, and with all our strength. Ultimately, in order for me to lead others well, you know, my team or my children or to love my husband well, I have to be loving God first. [00:44:16] 

 

When my priority is to love the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, it then overflows into my marriage, into my motherhood and into my work. Because when we are loving God in that way that He calls us to, it changes how we respond to people, how we love them, how we prioritize them, how we respond to them. And so I go back to that passage a lot. 

 

And then Jesus says the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourself. So it begins, you know, we love God first. When He is that priority, when He is center stage of our lives, then it will impact how we react and how we just take part in any other relationship in our lives. 

 

That's the verse that I often go back to is, God, how am I loving you first? And how does that love then impact my patience and my long-suffering and my servanthood and all of those different things that is a part of our relationship with others? [00:45:25] 

 

Laura Dugger: Gretchen, you've just given us a taste of all of the teaching that you have available. So can you tell us a little bit more about some of your resources and even where we could find and follow you online? 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Absolutely. I lead a ministry called Well-Watered Women. You can go to just wellwateredwomen.com. You can find our shop there where we create resources to equip and encourage women to be rooted deeply in God's word. Those resources range from quiet time journals or bible studies, verse cards, you know, whatever it is that we can create to help you cultivate this deeper walk with the Lord and a consistent walk with Him. 

 

There you'll also find articles that are biblically rooted, gospel-centered. We also share just encouragement daily on social media. So on Instagram, you can find us at Well-Watered Women or the Well-Watered Co. That's our shop. [00:46:28] 

 

But I also had the joy of releasing a book this year called The Well-Watered Woman: Rooted in Truth, Growing in Grace, Flourishing in Faith. There's a whole chapter in there on Karen, there's a chapter on abiding. If a lot of these things that you've heard in the interview have been encouraging to you and you want to just kinda maybe dig a little bit deeper, the book would definitely be where you can go. So you could find that in our shop, but you can find it on Amazon, your local bookstore.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you. We will link to all of that both in our show notes for today's episode and on our resources tab of the website. And you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So, as my final question for you today, Gretchen, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Gretchen Saffles: One of the really practical rhythms that I have sought to implement, I really want to know scripture. [00:47:27] I've just seen the importance of knowing God's Word and being able to call it to mind. So scripture memorization. It seemed so hard to me. I was like, "How do I add this into my busy schedule?"

 

So I've created this rhythm where every night before I go to bed, I read on my iPad. That's where I read most of my books like that. And I found this app called the Verses app, and I pull it up every night to review scripture that I'm memorizing.

 

It's a really fun app. You can do (fill in the blank), you can do different things to kinda help your mind start to really meditate on that passage and get it into your thoughts. That's been just a really practical rhythm that I've loved because I know every night this is when I'm going to memorize my scripture, I'm going to review it, and then I use... We have a Word Before World scripture memory journal in our shop where I'll write those verses out, and I can take them with me as I go. [00:48:26] So those are just really practical. It's made that spiritual discipline something that I just really love and I enjoy each day. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, it is so evident, Gretchen, that you are deeply rooted in God's word and that those deep roots is part of what He's used to help you weather these storms. It's obvious to us listening that there is so much fruit and fruit of the spirit evident in your life. So thank you for sharing all of your wisdom with us today, and I loved hearing your story. Thank you for being my guest. 

 

Gretchen Saffles: Oh, thank you. I loved getting to talk to you. I just really pray that this conversation really, really blesses and encourages everybody who listens. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, thank you. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:49:32] 

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:50:34] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:51:33] 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

165 Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

*This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for young ears*

 

165. Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

 

Your lips drop sweetness as the honeycomb, my bride; milk and honey are under your tongue. Song of Songs 4:11 (NIV)

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you tell me more about a few of your take aways from studying Song of Songs

2. What wisdom can you offer to couples who are asking "is this ok?"

3. Will you share ways to get the most out of involving all five senses in married sex?

 

Gary Thomas’ writing and speaking focuses on bringing people closer to Christ and closer to others.   He is the author of 20 books that together have sold over two million copies and have been translated into more than a dozen languages. These books include When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People; Sacred Marriage: What if God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy?, The Sacred Search: What If It’s Not About Who You Marry, but Why?, and the Gold Medallion award winner Authentic Faith.

 

Gary holds a B.A. in English Literature from Western Washington University, an MA degree in systematic theology from Regent College (Vancouver, BC), and an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from Western Seminary (Portland, OR).

 

He serves on the teaching team (and as Writer in Residence) at Second Baptist Church, Houston—a congregation with six campuses and 70,000 members—and is an adjunct faculty member at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon and Houston Theological Seminary in Houston, Texas.

 

Gary’s speaking ministry has led him to speak in 49 states and nine different countries, and on numerous national television and radio programs, including multiple appearances on Focus on the Family and Family Life Today. Gary’s interviews on Focus on the Family have been chosen among the “Best of 2013,” “Best of 2014” and “Best of 2017.”

 

Gary enjoys running in his spare time and has completed 14 marathons, including the Boston Marathon three times. He and his wife Lisa have been married for 35 years and they have three adult children and the smartest, cutest, most adorable granddaughter on the planet.

 

Gary is active online through his website (www.garythomas.com), twitter (@garyLthomas) Facebook (www.facebook.com/authorgarythomas) and Instagram (garythomasbooks)

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Married Sex

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Have you ordered your 2022 Powersheets Intentional Goal Planner yet? We highly recommend it!

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at midwestfoodbank.org.

 

Gary Thomas is back as my guest today. Last time, he discussed nine ways to connect intimately with God, and today, we're talking about connecting intimately with our spouse. Gary has just released an awesome book that he co-authored with our previous guest, Debra Fileta. It's entitled Married Sex. 

 

Today, you're going to hear more about sex and marriage in this safe and trusted place where Gary is going to encourage married couples to gratefully enjoy all the marital pleasures God has stored up for them. [00:01:24] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Gary. 

 

Gary Thomas: Thank you, Laura. So glad to be back. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, in case anyone missed our previous chat on September 13th, will you just remind us of who you are and what you do? 

 

Gary Thomas: Sure. I'm a husband, a father, rather recent grandfather. I've been a writer for most of my adult life. I'm also on the teaching team at a church in Houston, Texas. 

 

Laura Dugger: What I always appreciate about you, Gary, is you always esteem your family so well and honor Lisa. And that was especially important in one of these newest books that you've written with Debra Fileta, and it's entitled Married Sex. I love how the two of you point out this positive correlation between a healthy emotional connection in marriage and a fulfilling sex life. 

 

But before we jump into all of those details of Married Sex, what have you learned about the importance of the word "cherish"? [00:02:28] 

 

Gary Thomas: Laura, God used that word to reset my view of marriage, my expectations of marriage. The day we got married, most of us promised to love and to cherish until death do us part. And I don't know that I never thought of the word cherish for another 25 years. 

 

Madonna had a song that came out in the 80s that might have brought it to my mind, but I didn't really take it seriously. But the Lord challenged me that there was something there, and I began to explore what it meant and began to practice it. 

 

I'd always called myself to love my wife, even sacrificially, but “cherish” just created an entirely new element. Love focuses me on my obligations, sacrifice, serve, be faithful, persevere, hang in there, but "cherish" focuses me on the beauty and excellence and even wonder of my spouse. And I found it created an entirely different dynamic in marriage. [00:03:26] 

 

So it was a new rubric through which I looked at marriage, a new invitation of how I want to look at my wife and treat my wife for the rest of my days. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and as a pastor, you've spent significant time studying the Bible. What do you believe God's gift of sex teaches us about Him? 

 

Gary Thomas: It's amazing to me, Laura, when I really take it seriously what God tells us about sex in His book. For starters, we can just look at the title of the book that is primarily about sex, the Song of Songs. The ancient Near Eastern phrase, something of something elevated whatever was being discussed. 

 

An analogy that most people would have heard is God being called the King of kings. That doesn't mean that God is just the greatest of kings or the strongest of kings. It means that if you were to put all the kings of the universe together, God would be King of those kings. He's different in kind. 

 

So in the Old Testament, now this is pre-Christ, but in the Old Testament when it's describing the Song of Songs, not just the best song or the most wondrous song, the song that is different from every kind, that stands above every other kind of song, is a song of a husband and wife in their intimate sexual relationship within marriage. [00:04:42] 

 

And so God is telling us just with the title of the book, there is no other experience like this. And it shouldn't surprise us that God gives us that title, gives the book that title, when you think about what sex can do. The fact that as God is creator, in one sense, we become cooperating creators in sex. That we can literally create human beings who share our DNA. What sex does to us relationally where we feel connected with somebody, like we'll never feel in any other circumstance. The fact that it makes us feel like we are humans with bodies, we are embodied people, embodied beings who have nerve endings that can fire off in so many different ways. 

 

While sex reminds us of the transcendent God, it also reminds us that we are very much physical people. In that regard, I don't think it's surprising that He gives it such a high praise by calling the book about sex the Song of Songs. [00:05:45] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how your writing definitely just leads us to worship our creator. And I'm just going to share a little quote of yours where you elaborate on this and say, "God is a giver, and His gift-giving ability and creativity are stupendous." Will you just tell us a few more of your takeaways from studying the Song of Songs? 

 

Gary Thomas: Yeah. Well, I think one of the ones that was so gratifying to see is the very second verse, Laura. The very second verse it's the wife talking. And she says, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is more delightful than wine." 

 

I think in previous decades, there was a sense, even within the Christian world, but not just the Christian world, I think outside of it, the sex was often seen as for the husband, just to meet his needs or to keep him from stumbling or whatnot. And right out of the gate, the Bible says, No, this is for her pleasure. 

 

When this wife says, "Your love is more delightful than wine," that can go over the heads of a lot of modern wives because a lot of modern wives may not even like wine. [00:06:52] I'm sure many do, but not all. 

 

But if you go back three thousand years and think about a woman living in the desert, what it was like for women, think about how many pleasures she didn't have. She didn't get to wake up to a cup of caramel macchiato. She didn't even have Folgers. Right? Coffee wasn't there yet. She couldn't have dark chocolate in the afternoon. It hadn't been invented yet. I can't imagine my wife's life without dark chocolate. And in the evening, she didn't get to turn on the Real Housewives of Jerusalem to chill out with Netflix. She really only had one pleasure, and that was wine. 

 

And so what she's saying here, "when your love is more delightful than wine", and I should say that word "love" in Hebrew is dod, D-O-D, referring not to romantic love, but physical acts and caresses, she's saying I really have no other pleasure than this. [00:07:46] 

 

Now plenty of wives listening may say, well, you know, frankly, I might prefer a novel or playing an instrument or taking a walk or leading a Bible study. And that's fine. The takeaway though is that God's book on sex begins with stressing the wife's pleasure, that this is for the wife. Sex wasn't created just for the husband. Women are supposed to enjoy it as well. That's what God's design is. 

 

Laura Dugger: And, yes, how you say the first person to be pleased is the wife, and I think you drew out so many interesting principles from Song of Songs. Before we started recording, Gary said a prayer and just was asking for the Lord to make this a time of instruction as well. So as we share these things, that's our hope, instruction as well. And so as we share these things, that's our hope, is that it lands on ears that appreciate and can apply this information. 

 

But from the Bible, I'm going to re-quote that Song of Songs verse that you're talking about where she says, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is more delightful than wine." [00:08:46] You write in the book, "The kissing may involve his mouth, but not always hers, meaning he's kissing elsewhere. She wants his mouth all over her."

 

I think that's just a little taste of what this book is about, how you and Debra just beautifully weave in scripture and point us to worshiping God and reveal His heart in Married Sex. And you've heard a lot about the wife, but could you give us a little glimpse as well about the turbocharge for the husband?

 

Gary Thomas: Well, and let me stress, Laura, just so people know, this is an explicit book that Debra and I have written, but it's not as explicit as the Song of Songs. You really can't get more explicit than the Song of Songs. And so we just tried to follow the biblical model of celebrating what the Bible itself celebrates. 

 

So while in 1:2 it celebrates the pleasure a wife gets, I think Song of Songs 1:9 really is one of the key statements for the husband when he says, "I liken you my darling to a mare harnessed, to one of the chariots of pharaoh." [00:09:53] 

 

Now, again, that can go over our heads 3,000 years later. But back 3,000 years ago, people knew mares didn't pull the Pharaoh's chariot. The Pharaoh was like a king in the game of chess and battles. You were fighting over the rulers even more than land. If the Pharaoh went down, the battle was over. So the Pharaoh would have chariots pulled by the strongest and fastest horses with the most endurance, and that would be stallions. 

 

But what they discovered is when a stallion is in a mare's presence, she's not there to pull, just to be in proximity. Her presence, her sight, even her smell would literally whip the stallions into a sexual frenzy. And they discovered that sexually excited stallions run faster and farther than stallions that aren't. 

 

It's sort of funny, it's how they literally upped the horsepower 3,000 years before there were combustible engines. And it's really the picture of a man where the wife gets so much pleasure out of sex. The man feels like I can be stronger. I can do more as a husband, as a father, as a worker, as a son of God. [00:10:58] There's something about a fulfilling sex life that sets me up to be more engaged and to just be more involved and succeed in life in general. 

 

Laura Dugger: And when we read Song of Songs, it gives permission and blessing to so many marital acts related to physical intimacy. Often within marriage, couples very much can differ in their preferences even if that act seems to be approved in scripture. An easy one to think of is oral sex. So when couples are navigating the question of, is this okay, what do you challenge the couples to think about as they navigate their varying opinions about what they want to do specifically in the bedroom? [00:11:45] 

 

Gary Thomas: Debra and I both wrote from the perspective of we want to speak total freedom where the Bible speaks freedom. If the Bible doesn't have prohibition, we're very nervous about it. I mean, sometimes there are physical reasons to talk about prohibitions, but we're not raising them to the level of the Bible, you know, thus saith the Lord. And so when there's freedom, we want to speak freedom.

 

But let me also stress, Laura, especially if you're talking about oral sex, there are a thousand things a husband and wife can do in the bedroom. Ultimately, because mutual pleasure is so important, if you can't do one out of a thousand things, you can still have an incredible sexual experience. 

 

What we try to do in the book is remove some of the theological objections to it. There are, apparently, now these are somewhat poetic, but most biblical scholars today would say there is evidence for sure of the husband offering oral sex and the wife very likely offering oral sex to the husband. [00:12:46] 

 

If you're wondering how that is, apples are often an image for the male genitals in that poetry of that age. And so when you look at those kinds of things, it's like it seems like they're describing that. And because we know that God isn't against pleasure or sexual pleasure, He created it, because we know that I don't think anybody would say there's a problem if a husband kisses his wife's neck or ears or breasts. There's not anything particularly dirty or certainly not nasty about kissing lower. We just don't see a biblical or even a natural prohibition to that. 

 

That said, if mutual pleasure is the goal, I don't ever want to ask my spouse to do something that would, maybe because of a background or maybe something else, would feel demeaning or wouldn't be enjoyed or wouldn't lead to pleasure. I do believe there's freedom, but we're not trying to give a lot of shoulds in this book. We're offering invitations. [00:13:48] 

 

And sometimes you want to go to this party and not that party. Debra says in the chapter, and this is why I loved writing the book with a licensed counselor. Debra's worked with so many couples, and she's worked with a lot of women with that. And she says, you know, a lot of times it seems intimidating at first, but as the relationship develops, she says, and then even later, as you yourself get aroused, a lot of times some of those inhibitions start to subside a little bit and you can sort of just wade in. 

 

But I would stress, Laura, that this be done in a spirit of exploration and freedom. Never coercion. Never guilt. Never acting like your spouse is making you feel substandard for not doing one thing. Again, I want to stress, and I think our book mentions that, how many things we can do to enjoy each other sexually. We should not obsess on one particular act if our spouse does or doesn't want to do that. [00:14:44] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you're giving a both-and answer because you say the bible speaks a lot to the freedom, and, of course, we're never going to want to push anything that's against our spouse's conscience or agree to anything that's against our conscience. And yet I've heard you teach before as well that there's some work to do to tease out what is also false guilt. So there's a lot of discernment that goes into this. 

 

You've given analogies before about spouses who say, Well, I just want to be more adventurous. Could you elaborate on that? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, the blog post you're referring to, I said, It doesn't seem to me to be a fair question when so often these quote-unquote "adventurous" things always come at the wife's expense. I mean, we mentioned oral sex, if we're being that explicit. There is a natural consequence of a woman giving oral sex that there isn't for the husband. There just is. That's just the way it goes. Or at least the possibility of a consequence. [00:15:45] 

 

So it's not exactly the same thing. Sometimes husbands wanting their wives to dress a particularly provocative way in public, again, because of the world that we live in it's natural that she might feel a different sense of vulnerability. People are looking at her. 

 

Even things like outdoor sex is an entirely different thing about a woman being vulnerable, in that situation. Even on the beach. I just tell guys there's a difference between getting sand on your body and in your body. I don't want to get too explicit here, but people know exactly what I'm talking about. And so I said, adventurous isn't a fair word because if I were to say, "Hey, let's be adventurous," I'm going to shoot an apple off your head with my bow and arrow. That's adventurous, but you're the one that's at risk, not me.

 

Again, I think the standards are mutual pleasure, making our spouse feel desired. There are times we're going to stretch ourselves. [00:16:44] I think, for both husbands and wives, there are those moments when, as all aspects of marriage, conversation, choosing to go out to different kinds of restaurants, going out for a walk when you might prefer to just sit by the TV. There are times in marriage ask us to stretch ourselves and to maybe consider out of love for our spouse that we'll explore something with our spouse that we wouldn't normally think of on our own. But that should be in a spirit of mutual pleasure, delight, and wanting to give to each other. Never coercion, guilt, or manipulation. 

 

Laura Dugger: Your stance in your writing and your speaking is always so wise. You emphasize both the importance of pleasing the wife, which a lot of times unfortunately can be overlooked. But then in this book you also write a chapter entitled What Gets Him Going. So what insight would you like to provide wives on that topic? 

 

Gary Thomas: I do want listeners to know there's also a chapter What Gets Her Going, where Debra really helps husbands understand what's going on with their wives. [00:17:54] So on the chapter What Gets Him Going, we worked with a lot of men. We had a private Facebook group, we interviewed other couples and whatnot, just trying to help wives understand. 

 

Now we realize that no two men are alike. And I stress in this chapter that you can do great damage to your marriage if you treat your husband like most men like to be treated, if that's not how he likes to be treated. But these are really jumping-off points. These are things that couples can discuss and talk about. 

 

One of the things we found, and I love this, in the private Facebook group, a couple of the wives said, hearing these descriptions of husbands celebrating their wife's beauty, they said, make us want to cry. It's so moving to us. The way that husbands really can be enthralled with their wives' bodies. God designed us that way to delight in our wives. And these husbands were saying, we don't want our wives to look like supermodels. We married them. We appreciate them as they are. [00:18:53] So it was just this understanding of how important sight is to the husband and how much they enjoy it. 

 

But then Debra gives a very helpful section recognizing for a lot of women it's difficult to be seen. It's difficult to be naked and unashamed. And so conversations they can have, the healing that has to go on and whatnot. But I do think a lot of women will find that it's just hard for them to believe that their husbands are so enthralled with their beauty because they compare themselves to other women. 

 

But, wives, I just want you to know if your husband is being mentally faithful and regularly having sex with you, oxytocin is being released in his brain. Oxytocin is called the cuddle chemical. It creates feelings of bonding, but it also, when a husband is climaxing, literally makes the person he's with look more attractive and other women less attractive in comparison. [00:19:49] 

 

This is what I just love about God's design of sexuality, that marital sex is literally training the husband to find his wife to be the most beautiful woman in the world. The wife gets to experience being the most beautiful woman in that world. I want to say, wives, just embrace it, accept it, believe it. Your husband isn't lying. He really does enjoy that. 

 

But then we also talk about this for husbands, what gets him going, that for men, quantity is often an issue. Now we know they're... these statistics are so hard to come by. I've heard anywhere from probably around 20% of the higher libido wives, maybe sometimes up to 30%. But that still means that it's probably more likely the husbands tend to be the higher drive spouse. 

 

There are some mechanical reasons for that. Men have about two and a half times the space in the hypothalamus devoted to sexual interest. [00:20:50] And so you can have great sexual experiences once a month. But for men, what I try to say quantity is a part of quality. Now that doesn't mean that you make it a heavy duty or obligation, but you recognize what are the things that keep us from being intimate, perhaps as more often than we like. 

 

There's not any number I'm ever telling couples to reach. What I want is that both couples feel like they are desired and wanted and enjoyed, that it's a blessing and not a burden on them. Because of that, that it matters, there are times when a wife just can't get in the mood and shouldn't. Maybe she's not feeling well. Maybe she's just legitimately tired. Maybe she's not there. And so then we give some very practical… there's some very wise wives that we talked with. I call them turndowns that turn your husband on. How do you legitimately say, "I just can't get there, but you know what? This is actually a prelude to what will happen next time. It might be tomorrow. It might be later in the day." [00:21:53] 

 

But you're always telling your husband, "I'm looking forward to this. We can't right now, but how do you do that in a way that it actually becomes not a point of bitterness and frustration, but invitation and anticipation? There's an art to that, but it's a good art to learn. 

 

And then we talk about the power of your enjoyment, speaking to the wives. If a husband is healthy, he gets more pleasure out of his wife's pleasure than his own. Often women think I want to give to my husband, I want to meet his needs. And I want to say well good, but take a step back and say one of the best ways you can give to your husband is to learn how to receive, to really enjoy it. That is actually exciting for him. So it's not selfish when you teach him how to please you. 

 

It's not wrong to say, "That's not working for me, Honey. That's uncomfortable. I need you to stop." You should speak up. You should help him help you, to quote a famous movie. And that's a gift to your husband. There should be no guilt. That's a good thing to do. And it actually even while it serves you, it serves your husband. [00:23:02] 

 

In the chapter What Gets Her Going, Debra is very explicit about guys, how they can massage and caress their wives’ genitals. We go in the chapter What Gets Him Going, we do the same thing with the man's penis. What does it mean? What do guys often enjoy? Again, not so much the answers as questions. You can talk over with your husband: if this is going to be a lifelong relationship, how do we make it the best that it can be for both the wife and the husband? 

 

Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating, Gary, and I think it can provide this opportunity for couples to talk with one another. Hopefully, if they're listening to this podcast together, they listen separate and are coming together tonight, they can ask one another, Is this true for you? Is this what you experienced? 

 

I think for a lot of women, body image is such a barrier to enjoying sexual intimacy. It's very helpful to hear from an objective third party hearing you as a man say, maybe where women are looking and only seeing their flaws, men truly have told you they do not see her body that way. [00:24:16] 

 

Gary Thomas: If they would just read those quotes, how husbands are celebrating, they're saying, I know she thinks her legs are too short or she thinks she's gained too much after kids or something. I know this is considered controversial, Laura. I don't know why it is. Men do. It's not always, but we do tend to be more visual. There's a reason. There's a whole chain of Victoria's Secrets and you don't see Victor's secrets. That store is not going to make it. 

 

That doesn't mean women aren't attracted to men physically, but it does mean that there just tends to be an excitement in the male brain. And I want wives to receive that feeling of being cherished, not as an obligation, but really just as what is it like to be fully cherished and adored and celebrated like that? 

 

If they can go through some of the steps that Debra mentions and receive it as a gift, not as a heavy obligation. And it can take years. I like what one wife said when she said, "You know what? I was so body negative." She goes, "I can't say that I'm body positive now, but I'm body neutral." [00:25:23] And that's a start, and it's good to get going. 

 

Then what I would say to wives on this, because we've just talked about how to please the husband, and I said one of the things is that your pleasure is so important to him and so thrilling to him and also important to you, that I would say, particularly younger wives, every woman is different, every woman's brain, every woman's body. 

 

So we often tell couples, if you will just take your time, and I would say to the wives, it's a good and holy thing, it's a gift to your husband to sort of let him learn what pleases you. You can even guide his hand. You can tell him. Don't expect him to guess. He can't know because there's no other woman like you. 

 

But if you realize, okay, he gets pleasure out of my pleasure, helping him to pleasure you, it's not selfish. It's a gift. So take the time to do that. [00:26:18] What we really want to do in this book is just help couples to slow down, to cherish the moment, to not just focus on the point of orgasm, but to realize all of the road to get there can be sometimes even better than that finish. And just to take the time to relish the moment the way that God designed us to do. 

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:26:44] <music>

 

Sponsor: This sponsorship message is unique because an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. 

 

Over $30 million worth of food is distributed to over 2,000 nonprofit organizations each month, over 30% of which was produce or protein. In 2020, over 186,000 family food boxes were distributed to disaster victims. Their volunteers are fundamental to the success of their organization. 

 

They collect, sort, pack, and distribute food and disaster relief donations and remind us every day that Midwest Food Bank's mission could not be achieved without them. Thanks to the generosity of donors, the valuable work of volunteers, and most importantly, the blessings of God, Midwest Food Bank shares the blessings world worldwide. More than $360 million worth of food was distributed this past year. This is done from their 10 United States and two international locations. 

 

To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at midwestfoodbank.org. 

 

[00:28:12] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: You discussed in one of your chapters about the five senses in Married Sex. So will you share some more ways to get the most out of involving all five senses? 

 

Gary Thomas: I'd say that was one of her favorite chapters when we stumbled on that. And here's what I love. Again, in this book that God inspired, the Song of Songs, every sense, sight, sound, smell, taste, touch is celebrated as having erotic potential, the way that God designed our bodies. And if couples will just think, how can sound really impact the experience we have in the bedroom? It's amazing how exciting lifelong monogamy can be, how different it can feel with the same person when you just emphasize different senses. 

 

Sound is a big thing. There's a lot of neuroscience behind the power of listening to music while you have sex. Some couples know that and they do that all the time. Others might not. [00:29:13] 

 

We talk to wives about how you can use your voice as an instrument. It's an entirely different experience. For instance, if a wife is laughing or enjoying her time and then she leans over and just whispers something into her husband's ear, that's sort of a brain hack where if somebody's talking in a normal tone and then they whisper right in your ear, your brain just wakes up. What did she say? How do I catch that? 

 

And if you just think of the normal sounds of a couple being intimate, whether the wife is laughing, whether the wife is moaning, whether the wife is silent with intensity, those are all very different kinds of sexual experience that the wife's voice is creating with sound. 

 

We talked about the importance of sight to husbands and also to wives, things that couples can do just to do that. Some people talk about mirrors, ironically, sometimes taking away the sight. One wife said when I was blindfolded and I didn't know what my husband was going to do next, she goes, It created this heightened sense of expectation for me. [00:30:13] 

 

Smell was a big thing. In the Song of Songs, it's so celebrated. If there's one thing that's true about lovers, they love how each other smell. I mean, throughout that pleasing is the fragrance of your perfume, Song of Songs 1:3, and several passages where they talk about it. 

 

Smell elicits memories. This is what's fascinated me. I knew that smell... for whatever reason, our brain is connected to memories, but here's how some very creative wives have learned to use that. One wife knows what perfume she wore on their wedding night, the first time they made love, and every anniversary, she puts a few dabs of that on and it immediately brings them back to that special time when they were first intimate. 

 

Another woman said that we had this great time on vacation where she wore the special lotion. She said it was the best sex we've ever had and every now and then she'll just put on that same lotion and it reminds both her and her husband what it was like in that moment. 

 

But this is where, Laura, we're all different and every woman is different because one woman told us her favorite scent is unscented. [00:31:17] Again, that's why this is a book of questions instead of answers. You have to go through it. 

 

Let me just say another difference between husbands and wives that's really fascinating. A woman's skin can be 10 times more sensitive than a man's. It explains why women tend to enjoy foreplay more because it just feels different to them. It feels more intense. It also explains why husbands often feel like their wives' touches are maybe a little too light, and wives may feel sometimes their husbands' touch can be a little too firm. 

 

Well, if you understand the way our brains operate, then it's something that we can do to prepare and just to be aware of as we try to integrate all five senses to just create entirely new experiences by focusing on one particular sense.

 

Laura Dugger: There is one way to incorporate all five senses, could you elaborate on that as well? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, I think this is when we're really talking about healthy relationships, Laura. I've worked with couples that have had affairs and they've admitted in their words, the sex was pretty good. [00:32:21] But by that, they meant it was athletic. They both got their release. They felt satisfied physically, but they said there wasn't that soul connection. 

 

But there is one sensual act in marriage that really does unlock all five senses, and that's a passionate kiss with your eyes wide open. You see each other up close. You can smell each other. Obviously, you're tasting each other. You feel each other with your lips. And if you're doing it right, you can hear each other. And it is that experience where you can really connect. It's not just physical pleasure, not that I'm downplaying physical pleasure, but it's more than that. There's this soul connection. 

 

I often tell couples, don't just pay attention to how often you have sex. Pay attention to the kind of sex you're having. I mean, it's fine to have laughter sex. It's time to have athletic sex. Sometimes it's time to just have physically passionate sex. You both just want to enjoy that experience. But there should be moments, I think, in a healthy marriage for that sensual, soul-connecting kind of sex. [00:33:26] And I think kissing with your eyes open is a big part of that. 

 

Laura Dugger: Will you also define what you mean by sacred simmering and then share some examples of ways we can actually incorporate this into our marriage? 

 

Gary Thomas: Yeah. This is real helpful. Simmering is a topic that sexual therapists have been talking about, particularly last ten years or so. And what I love is how the bible predates so much worldly wisdom. You go back 3,000 years ago, and there are literally examples of simmering in the Song of Songs. 

 

Let me explain what simmering is. What therapists understand is that it's difficult at times to go from ice cold to red hot. That's a big stretch. Even if you think you might be having sex later in the day, by the time you get there, you're just tired or you're busy, or whatever and you just can't get there. And so the notion is if you can simmer, then you're much closer to boiling. 

 

So if you know you're going to have sex that day, what are some things you can do to simmer? Now the Song of Songs talks about literally the wife thinking, imagining her husband's body from the top of his head and his hair to his arms like rods of iron to his legs. [00:34:39] 

 

And then the husband is mentally celebrating the most beautiful parts of his wife's body. He says the king is held captive by her tresses, referring to her hair. He says her eyes overwhelm me. So he's thinking about the sexually desirable parts. 

 

So simmering is getting your mind in gear. I guess you could call it fore foreplay. It's not foreplay. It's the fore foreplay before you get into foreplay so that you even want to enter the realm of foreplay. So wife could do that while she's fixing macaroni and cheese and heating that up for her kids. They have no idea that she might be mentally heating herself up in an entirely different way to enjoy her husband later that night. 

 

One wife plays this playlist. We talked about using music, and they love to make love to music. And she said, "There are literally songs that I have orgasm to. And when I'm listening to that, the kids don't have a clue what's going on, but it just helps me get in the mood and excited about what's going to happen." [00:35:40] 

 

We talk about a couple in the book where sex had become just too sporadic. Both of them were frustrated with it. And the therapist recommended scheduled sex, and the wife at first thought, "That's the last thing I want to do. I don't want it to sound like this obligation and put it on the list." 

 

But then the therapist said, Well, let's just talk about how you set up your day. And it was basically a day of simmering, where take a longer shower, use a particular kind of soap, make it just kind of essential where you're just thinking about what would happen. And then when you're getting dressed, the clothes you wear and what you wear under your clothes, think about what makes you feel desirable, what makes you feel essential, what gets you in the mood, texts that you might send to your husband or that you might ask him to send to you. 

 

In her case, she really wanted a wide berth between being a mom and being her husband's lover. So he realized she wanted him to bring dinner home Friday night without asking her. She didn't wanna have to make a mother's decision. [00:36:41] And then when they got back from their date, he was the one who paid the babysitter, he was the one that got the kids in bed while she went off into the master bathroom and took a bath. Suddenly, she said, "This is the best thing we ever did for our sex lives." Because she realized a day of simmering makes me so excited for that moment when my husband finally walks into the bedroom and I'm all ready and it's like, here we go. 

 

So just recognize, for some, we have to simmer before we're even willing to consider foreplay. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean you don't desire your spouse. It just means the way our brains work. I've heard it said that multitasking is a myth. Our brains don't multitask. It goes very quickly from one task to the next, but it's not actually doing two tasks at once. Our brains can't do that. Which means we shouldn't be surprised. Sometimes we have to simmer if we've had a day of caring for others or working or studying or whatever we do to really get in the mood for physical intimacy. [00:37:46] 

 

Laura Dugger: I think one more simple way for wives that they would always have access to is mentally just having thoughts of gratitude that they're intentional about too, think about the character or things that they love or admire about their husband. I think that is another example of simmering. 

 

Gary Thomas: Debra talks about that where a lot of times for women because often with women, sexual interest is in the neocortex. Men can often be more in the limbic. The limbic is the sight and sound. Neocortex is the quality of the relationship. And so thinking about how your husband is kind or he treats the kids. 

 

One wife said, to be honest, for me, simmering — she's a musician — "When I hear my husband play the piano, that gets me going as much as anything." So it's realizing simmering is based on what gets you going. Not what gets your husband going, not what gets other women going, but really what works for you. The point is the Bible says that's a good thing to do. It's a holy and sacred thing to do. [00:38:47] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thanks to our friend Joy, thesavvysauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1 titled articles. I hope you check out these new Savvy Snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy. 

 

Gary, will you elaborate on the dangers of only relying on spontaneity for sexual encounters in marriage? There's a place for it, but I think we have to get to the point of not just what do I want, but what does our relationship need? And look at it as a relational issue, not just a personal issue. What makes us feel both cherished? What makes us feel desired? What gives energy and soul connection to the marriage? [00:39:46] 

 

I just had a conversation with a friend. It's been months since we've gotten together, and he said, "Well, let's get together." I said, "You know what? If you can call my assistant." I said, we say that, but if it's not on the calendar, it might be another two months before it happens. That's a sign of valuing the relationship, not that it's not important. 

 

It's just recognizing that in the world we live in, sometimes we do have to just get it on the calendar. What I found, Laura, what that can do is it can just really remove some of the frustration and the uncertainty. So you're not always, is tonight the night? Sometimes it's just kinda helpful to know, No, it's not. I don't have to simmer. I don't have to get my mind there. But tomorrow or the next day after that or whatnot. It can just be helpful. But, again, this is a couple thing. Figure it out as a couple. The point is to make it a delight and not a burden. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. I echo that, that there is absolutely a place and a time for spontaneity that's wonderful for the marital relationship. [00:40:44] And yet I've heard you interviewed before when you said, you know, looking back, you've noticed that that's where a lot of hurt came up in couples was when they only were being spontaneously sexually active or making these sexual advances just in the moment. And a lot of hurt would come up whether that's rejection or not feeling planned for. And you just recommended it's better when possible to be proactively communicating. 

 

Gary Thomas: One couple... Let me just give an example. And I don't think people should use their conclusion as the model for them. But he was a very high-drive spouse, and she was not as much. So he would like to have sex every day, and she was like, "There's just no way I can get to that." 

 

And they finally settled on, and this might not work for the listeners, but she said, "Okay." And they were a younger couple. "How about every other day?" For her, it just meant that the next day she doesn't have to think about it. It's not there. It's going to happen every other day. [00:41:45] 

 

Again, that might still be too much for some wives. But what it did, Laura, is it took it off the table every other day where it wasn't a point of contention. He knew it. And now what had been frustrating or she's thinking, can I never give him enough, and he's thinking I can never get enough, they really found that point where they felt like agreeing ahead of time, "Okay, this is reasonable, we both think this is good," and so now that tension was gone.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. We've written an article on The Savvy Sauce website about in marriage making the covert overt, so making these secret or internal expectations, making them obvious to one another, and you can really sidestep regrets and hurts that way. Again, your book is just an incredible and practical way for people to read that or listen to this interview and have some conversation with their spouse to follow-up. 

 

Gary, what encouragement do you also have to share with married couples as it relates to the difference between our genital prime and our sexual prime? [00:42:52] 

 

Gary Thomas: Dr. David Schnarch was a renowned sex therapist. He passed away within the last year. But he's done a lot of really helpful research and study, and we got that from him. The point is genital prime is when you can have the most active sex physically, but sexual prime is in the relationship when it's likely to be most satisfying. And that can be sometimes 20 years into the relationship.

 

Because sex isn't just physical. There are physical components where you have to learn control, you have to learn each other's bodies, you have to learn your own body for things to work. But there's this sense where the whole relationship, spiritually, emotionally, and learning each other physically takes time to where it can take 15 to 20 years for a couple to really reach the point where they both feel like, we've got this down. And monogamy is what they choose because it's what they delight more than anything, because they know, boy, we've got this figured out, and we can't imagine it being any better. [00:43:56] 

 

Now the road to there, Laura, that we have to be aware of is that he also says there's a difference between the word he uses, arousal, and satisfaction response. And what he means by that, arousal response is what gets you aroused, and satisfaction is what ultimately satisfies you and helps you to orgasm. Those response thresholds change over time. Your body will change, the relationship will change, the experience will change. 

 

So not to freak out, that what worked for you in your 20s or 30s may not work in your 40s or 50s. It doesn't mean that the two of you are waning sexually. It just means what Dr. David Schnarch says, you've gotta be a little more creative. That's why you talk about the five senses or you talk about the difference that each position means and how to be more creative and intentional so that you can create unique experiences. [00:44:52] 

 

We should anticipate that, not to freak out about it. But just say, okay, this is what it is to be in a normal marriage, this is what happens with long-term sexual relationships. So it doesn't mean I don't desire my spouse, my spouse doesn't desire me, it just means this threshold has been met and we've got to change things up a little bit to go forward. 

 

Laura Dugger: I just want to elaborate on that. That's so important what you're saying because over time and throughout different seasons, maybe after childbearing, women may experience vaginismus or different kinds of pain during intercourse, and it's very common at some point throughout marriage for men to experience erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation. 

 

And sometimes these are more isolated experiences. But if it's going on for a really long time, that's okay to seek treatment. We've done a lot of episodes related to all of those topics to help direct people to know where to go to find help. But I think you're right. Expect difficulties through... some of the most challenging times are pregnancy and childbirth. Parenting teens will change a sex life often for a couple. And then medical issues or aging. And so there's always opportunities to seek out help, but those are sometimes that maybe especially in need of support. [00:46:16] 

 

Giving and receiving in sex is important for both spouses. So how would you encourage both genders in seeing sex through the lens of both giving and receiving? 

 

Gary Thomas: Let me answer that by picking up a little bit on what you said before you asked the question, about how after birth or as a couple ages or whatnot, that the threshold changes. I think what trips up many couples is that the goal of sex is often seen as orgasm. 

 

Now, the orgasm gap needs to come down. That's the percentage of time that the husband would have an orgasm and the wife would or whatnot. But we have to understand that there are a lot of very enjoyable things that husbands and wives can do together that don't involve necessarily leading one or both of them to that. And the same thing as far as penetrative intimacy, penetrative sex. [00:47:16] 

 

In some of those situations where taking that off the table, but say we can still enjoy each other, we can still touch each other, we can still make each other feel good. But there's nowhere in the bible that says something is missing if you can't get there. 

 

Now let me just say, eventually, I want a couple to consummate a marriage, and I think generally for healthy sexuality that should be a part of it, but not always insisting on it because it's what will most serve your spouse at this time. Maybe the wife feels like I just can't get there, but, honey, if you're here and you want to kiss me and touch me and I'm going to enjoy it and we can be there. 

 

But recognizing what I said before, that she may need to learn how to receive, and again, for her own pleasure, but also for her husband's. We had some husbands say that, you know what, I feel like Superman when I know I can please my wife. So it really is a good gift when you can help your husband learn how to please you. 

 

So there's that whole chapter that we wrote called What Gets You Going. [00:48:16] We got the chapter What Gets Him Going, What Gets Her Going, and the chapter What Gets You Going. Because the reality is because your brain is so different and especially for women, and a lot of women laughed about this when they were in the book saying, you know what, what pleases me on Wednesday may not work on Friday and that may not work on Saturday morning. 

 

So no husband can guess all of that, and so just helping him, realizing that it's far more common for the guy to have his climax and that not to have to take as much work. So really trying to overcome that gap that often happens because it tend not always, but it tends to be easier for the husband slowing down and figuring out, well, maybe it's better for the wife to please first, just whatever works best for the couple. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so good and such practical wisdom. Is there anything else related to Married Sex that we haven't covered yet that you would like to mention? [00:49:13] 

 

Gary Thomas: What I'd really like to see this book do, Laura, it's not just what happens in the bedroom. It's what happens after you leave the bedroom. I tell this silly story in some of my seminars about the work that Lisa and I had to do one time to be intimate on a cruise. We were with our daughters. They were a lot younger. They had key cards. We couldn't lock them out. They couldn't be alone on their own. And we finally figured out a way for them to be safely away from the room where we know they couldn't be interrupted. It took us days to figure out how to do that, but we had a great time. 

 

But I couldn't tell you what happened in the room. And if I did, I wouldn't mention it now. But here's what I remember, and this is what I want wives to hear. I remember dinner that night. We're with our kids, happy to be with them now because they're not keeping us from anything. So we're thrilled to be a family. But just looking across the table at each other with that wonderful smile, we know, they don't know. Nobody around us knows. We really enjoyed each other. We had a good time. [00:50:12] 

 

It's that just special, private, sacred look that a husband and wife have. Some have said, you know, maybe even at church on Sunday morning when they look at each other and they kinda just remember Saturday night, and they say, man, nobody would believe it or nobody knew, but we do. I just love the intimacy that memories of healthy, mutual, pleasurable sex can create. That it's something nobody else will ever know, see, or hear of. It's shared. It creates this bonding experience. 

 

We want to create more of those knowing smiles between husbands and wives, whether it's at a family gathering, whether it's at a hotel, at a restaurant, or even at church, where it continues to be this wonderful, soul-connecting, marriage-building source. Even after the pleasure is gone, the memories can be just as powerful to serve the marriage. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. I love that, Gary. [00:51:13] You articulate that so well. And if anyone wants to follow-up and learn more from you, where would you direct them? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, if they want more information about the book, the website for the book is marriedsex.us. Marriedsex.us. Now people, understandable reasons, don't like to type in words like that. So you can go to my website, which is GaryThomas.com, and that will link you to wherever I am on social media. The book is available, you know, on Christian books and Barnes and Noble and Amazon and all of that where they could order the book directly. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will make some show notes with episode links available for everyone. And you know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Gary, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Gary Thomas: I think one of the most practical savvy sauces that you could do for a marriage, this is another wife who mentioned this, so I'm stealing this, but a great opportunity. [00:52:18] We had a couple one time that mentioned before they got kids, they could go a long-time enjoying sex. And then they had four kids, and it became all of these quickies. And the wife said, I liked it because it gave release, physical release, but there was something different. It's like eating fast food. Fast food means you're not hungry, but it's not really nurturing. 

 

And they realized they had to step back and have these moments that they savor. There's a place for quickies. But for really connecting and defeating their marriage, they needed those times to savor. And so this was considered really one of the best opportunities where just to get away, particularly if you have kids. 

 

You rent a hotel room and the wife shows up first at about 3 p.m. and she gets to do whatever she wants to do. She can sit on the balcony if there is one and read a novel, she can catch up on Netflix, she can take a bath. The husband comes in and they go out to eat before or after they make love, they enjoy the time. [00:53:16] 

 

And then afterwards, the husband goes home and the wife gets to stay in the hotel room to have a great night of sleep. Now she can get up early if she wants to be there before the kids wake up or she can just decide that she's going to sleep in. You make it a whole day thing where the wife feels like this was an oasis. We have a chapter called [inaudible 00:53:34] sex where life can be frustrating, it can be difficult, it can be hurtful, it can be scary. And good sexual experiences can be like an oasis in a desert. You still gotta walk through the desert, but you're refreshed, you're renewed, so you can go out with new energy and new results to really make the most of your life. 

 

So I would just encourage the listeners of Savvy Sauces, create some of those moments. Maybe that doesn't work for you, maybe that doesn't sound inviting for you, but recognize there's a place where how can sex become the oasis that God intended it to be. [00:54:11] It won't remove all of our problems. It won't solve most of our problems, but it'll help us reconnect so that we can face our problems together. 

 

Laura Dugger: Goodness. Gary, it is always just such a privilege to hear your teaching. You are so clear, and you're such a kind communicator, both in your speaking and your writing. So thank you for devoting time to write this important book, and thank you for being my guest today. 

 

Gary Thomas: Thank you, Laura, for having me. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:55:17] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:56:19] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:57:21] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

164 Inspiring Perspective in Parenting with Kay Wyma

164. Inspiring Perspective in Parenting with Kay Wyma

 

She equips herself with strength [spiritual, mental, and physical fitness for her God-given task] And makes her arms strong. Proverbs 31:17 (AMP)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

 

1. You believe kids thrive on high expectations and you became determined to parent your children "as if they were inherently strong, not inherently weak." . . how did this epiphany launch you into a 12-month experiment with your kids?

2. What list did you create for your "Top Twelve Things a Kid Should Know Before Flying the Wyma Coop"?

3. Now that some of your children have grown and launched, how do they look back on this experiment?

 

Kay Wyma is a mom, blogger, vodcaster, and author of four books in which she has tackled, with candor and humor, some of the troubling societal issues that impact us all. Kay's writings have led her to appearances on TODAY, CNN, Hallmark's Home & Family, and more. Before staying at home with her kids, she held positions at the White House and Bank of America. She lives in Dallas, Texas, with her husband and five kids. Connect with Kay at kaywyma.com or on Instagram @kaywyma.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Cleaning House: A Mom's Twelve-Month Experiment to Rid Her Home of Youth Entitlement

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

 

Kay Wyma is my guest today, and she's going to share some of her lessons from parenting. She is full of great ideas. We're going to hear how one idea was so impactful, it actually turned into an experiment, which eventually was published in her book, Cleaning House: A Mom's Twelve-Month Experiment to Rid Her Home of Youth Entitlement.

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kay.

 

Kay Wyma: Thank you so much for having me. I just love The Savvy Sauce and everything about it.

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, well, thank you for that. I just can't wait to talk about this parenting experiment that turned into a book. [00:01:21] But first, let's go back into your childhood. What was your family of origin like?

 

Kay Wyma: Well, you know, I grew up in West... well, sort of West Texas. Texas is so big, and the plains go on and on. I lived in a relatively small city that was the big city for that part of Texas. And, you know, just kind of that regular life of lovely boredom throughout the summer, where you had to go find something to do. I played tennis, so I'd walk to the tennis court every day and hang out with my friends. 

 

It was very regular in so many aspects. But life in the world was going on around just like it is today. I grew up in the 70s, and there was a lot of interesting stuff. I mean, we had major inflation during that period. There was war going on when I... you know, with my father, even. When he was a young dad, we had conflicts going on with Vietnam. [00:02:23] 

 

You had all kinds of things that were significant going on around us. But I think sometimes you look back, like even remembering that cable television came to our town when I was... I think I had to have been in grade school. It was a small enough city where everyone was up in arms because they thought it was going to ruin everybody's life. Like you were bringing in hell into the city. 

 

Which is so interesting because of all the things that we have that surround us now that could make us scared or that could make us go, this is the worst time ever to be having kids or to be growing up in. The truth is, every age and stage has things about it that inherently within all of them there's nothing new under the sun.

 

I love that question because I think it's good to look back and you go, so much of what you'll remember is idyllic. In many cases, more than anything, if you're thinking back on it, you made it through it. I think perspective is a really powerful tool that is worth tapping into and worth finding the truth in all of it. [00:03:30] And the truth being you made it through. The truth being that you are seen and the Lord has plans for you, no matter what time period you're in or what house you were brought up in.

 

Laura Dugger: Now that we know a little bit about your upbringing, will you also share about your own family, both presently and the stage that you were in when you wrote the book, Cleaning House?

 

Kay Wyma: Okay. So we have five kids. The ages right now are 24 to 14. When I wrote the book, the oldest was 14. So, you know, 13, 14. Because when you write a book, it takes about a year to do that. So it's interesting to think back on that. 

 

We have a lovely life. I mean, I love my kids. I was telling one of them yesterday that one of the greatest gifts I was given through all of this, and I think partly through Cleaning House, is realizing that these people that walk life next to you are human beings. 

 

I think in this world of parenting and thinking about those types of topics, it's easy to objectify a kid or a person, which really is not a good thing to do. [00:04:37] Through letting go of a lot of that, which you objectify through performance or determining worth based on an outcome of something or the way that you look, all kinds of things like that, that we just inherently do, just being on this planet. 

 

But letting go a lot of that allowed me to genuinely like my kids and the people I'm next to. It is really sweet to be able to travel this interesting road of parenting where you do have to have a sense of roles and authority, but the amazing aspect of loving each other through it is so powerful and probably the sweetest part of having family around you.

 

And one other thing, just about being a mom, I think it's one of the greatest gifts in a large part because it's one of the only times in your life that you, for a huge portion of your life, are serving other people and your eyes are not on yourself. And I'm like, I think that's the biggest gift because you don't have that in the workplace. [00:05:39] You're always thinking about what you have to do to get the next bonus or raise or whatever, or even to keep your job. Or even in school, it's always about grades. 

 

I remember one day waking up going, this mom gig is a good thing because it forces your eyes off of yourself, which seems to always be a gift.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. Like you said, what a great positive perspective. If I'm doing the math correctly, when you wrote this book, your children ranged in age from 4 to 14. 

 

Kay Wyma: Yeah. 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. I remember you saying that you believe kids thrive on high expectations and you became determined to parent your children as if they were inherently strong, not inherently weak. How did that epiphany launch you into this 12-month experiment with your kids? 

 

Kay Wyma: You know, it probably all started because of the experiment. And the experiment was hilarious. I decided that most things in my life, if there's a change that's coming off of some rotten attitude of me, and I really honestly was frustrated with one of the kids. [00:06:46] 

 

I mean, I was driving down the road and this 14-year-old next to me looked over and said, "Which one of these cars would I look good in?" Because we were literally the meat in a luxury car sandwich. There was a Porsche on our right and a Lexus on the left and a Maserati in front of us, which honestly, I had heard that name before, but I didn't know what it was.  But the kid did.

 

I was sort of like swallowing the vomit in my throat going, Ew, like really? I'm sitting there thinking of how many times we had gone to serve people and I'm like, Stuff doesn't make you who you are. And so I was grossed out by that. I came home and I also had a conversation with my sister-in-law in the car going, "This is so gross. Can you believe this?" Her kid had acted the same way that morning, who was bordering a young adult.

 

I came home, all the dishes were out, the beds were unmade, I mean, everything. And I just was like, "What's going on here?" Because I had taught them how to do those things. [00:07:42] With five kids, it just kind of gets a life of its own, you know? I looked around going, gosh, they're looking to me to serve them. Like they're looking to me to do all this stuff. 

 

I sat down on the couch and I was like, "Yes, they're looking to the state to serve them." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's socialism. And I'm grooming it in my house and I don't even like it," you know? And so it made me go, "I'm done with this." I literally went through the house. Like behind me was the kitchen. I was sitting there going, "Yep, they don't really know what goes on in that room." The laundry room was next to it. And I was like, "Yeah, they think that the clothes magically appear in their drawers," you know?

 

Even though through the years I had shown them this stuff, I hadn't genuinely put it on their plate. Honestly, Laura, it was that. So I did it because I was mad. I was sort of like, "I'm going to show them." And I sort of drew the line in the sand, which is terrible, because when you do, you have to follow through. I mean, I think I regretted it the minute I was like, "Here's what we're going to do." [00:08:43] 

 

But it didn't take long to realize that there really was an issue at play. And it was this issue of entitlement. And entitlement tells a person really that they can't do anything, that everything has to be done for them. That is such a cruel mentality, because you're basically stealing from somebody their identity. 

 

The way I realized that was really on our first task, because I kind of went around the house, you know, you will be cooking dinner now and you'll be doing the yard work or getting a job, all kinds of things that kind of, that made up the 12 months. And it was in that very first month when... you know, just the cooking.

 

There's tips in the book of even how to make a change in your house and stuff like that, which I got from an older, wiser woman that was ahead of me in life. But our first task was making dinner. The poor youngest kid was slow on the uptake and got landed in the first dinner. [00:09:42] 

 

It was literally going to the grocery store with this kid who had even a worse attitude than I did. I mean, just bellyaching, announcing to everyone how mean his mother was, that she was making him cook dinner. And it was so beautiful because a neighbor stopped us as we were walking in and he was like, "What's going on, little man." And he was like, "My mother's making me cook dinner." And he goes, "Well, look at me." And he was holding two bags. And he was like, "I'm making dinner in my house," which instantly was sort of like, Well, hold on a second. 

 

You know, it took it from some terrible task, you know, to like, hold on a second, this man is doing that? It completely changed his mindset right then and there. Our entire experience in the grocery store transformed from something being done to him to being done for him, which I mean, even saying that Laura, I'm like, welcome to our life with the Lord.

 

We feel like these things that He puts on our plate are done to us, but they're actually for us. [00:10:47] And the kid that walked into that grocery store was different than the kid that walked out. The kid that walked out had a sense of well-being and had a sense of purpose and it fed so much life into him. He was 8 years old. So I'm just telling you an 8-year-old can't make this stuff up. You know, little kids can't fake it.

 

As he even made dinner that night, he had such... it was like someone had given him an IV of like, I don't know, some sort of... it was like an intensity of power. Like I can do this. And he started to see things not as like... you know, I used to think of it like if there was a mountain off in the distance, he didn't ever see that as an obstacle. It turned from that to an opportunity. 

 

And that's where I was like, wait a second, this is significant. Our society is telling you check your kid's homework, make sure everything's done, pave the road in front of them. [00:11:49] It's gone from helicoptering to snow plowing. I mean, and even into their adult years. When I was writing this, I was floored at what people were telling me. 

 

Like there was an HR group at a large companies that said that they had to deal with the parents being on the phone of their young adult person interviewing for a job, which it's like, seriously, has it come to that where I'd have to make sure my child was answering their interview questions? I don't even know. I don't know where to go with that. But I know it's out of love that we do these things. 

 

And so it's like, dare we out of love, see what they can do because these kids, they're amazing people. They can do so much more than they think they can do, but they can do exponentially more than we think they can do. And if we can let go of the fear and be able to lean into things that take a little bit of time and sometimes some failure, what comes out on the other side, it's significant. [00:12:51] It invites a person to be able to live in their purpose and gifting.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:12:59] <music>

 

Sponsor: This sponsorship message is unique because an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites.

 

Over $30 million worth of food is distributed to over 2,000 nonprofit organizations each month, over 30% of which was produce or protein. In 2020, over 186,000 family food boxes were distributed to disaster victims. Their volunteers are fundamental to the success of their organization. They collect, sort, pack, and distribute food and disaster relief donations and remind us every day that Midwest Food Bank's mission could not be achieved without them. 

 

Thanks to the generosity of donors, the valuable work of volunteers, and most importantly, the blessings of God, Midwest Food Bank shares the blessings worldwide. More than $360 million worth of food was distributed this past year. This is done from their 10 United States and two international locations. 

 

To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

 

[00:14:28] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Will you now lay out the overview of your 12-month experiment to rid your home of youth entitlement? Specifically, if somebody has the book, I'm looking at the list from page 11, which, Kay, is what you've said are the top 12 things a kid should know before flying the Wyma Coupe.

 

Kay Wyma: Before I start, I just want to say that this was my list. These were the things that I was kind of like, what do I want my kids to know? You know, what is it that's sort of bothering me? When I went through it, I really was sort of like in their life, what would be a good thing for them to know how to do? So here are my top 12 things. And I put it as before flying the Wyma Coupe.

 

So how to make a bed and maintain an orderly room, how to cook and clean, how to work in the kitchen, how to do yard work. By the way, on that one, I'm terrible. I feel for the plant that comes in this house because I kill it. [00:15:28] 

 

So on that was the first one where I was like, you don't have to know how to do it in order to learn how to do it and teach them how to do it. And now they teach me. Then following that was how to clean a bathroom. Not organize it, but literally clean it. How to get a job outside of our home. Another was how to do laundry, which includes putting it away. How to do handyman jobs. We had that chapters interesting because that was the good, the bad end, the ugly. 

 

How to host a party because I am from the South and I love for people to know how to invite people over and to treat them well. And then how to work together, how to run errands, how to put others first through service, and how to act mannerly. 

 

These were important things for me. For somebody else's house, you may have this down. Like you totally may have the laundry down. But there may be something that's in your life like that. You go, I really want my kids to know how to do that. [00:16:26] 

 

The yard work is such a powerful example. Because as your kids lives outside your home and they have never participated in yard work, inherently in their mindset, whether you've said it or not, they think that they have to go pay someone to do the yard work. And that could go for any one of these tasks. 

 

If I don't know how to cook, then I'm just going to think that I have to get Uber Eats every day, which Uber Eats did not exist then, but it does now. And it's super easy. And there is even like you're going to hit a point where it may be cheaper to do Uber than it is to go out and get a steak and learn how to cook a steak or whatever it is. 

 

But the key in all of these is inviting your kids into a process. And it doesn't matter how old they are because you know, just looking at this list, I had a 4-year-old at the time. He couldn't do everything, but he sure could do more than I would have thought at that age, even in the kitchen, because you know, it's scary for a little kid to hold a knife. 

 

You stand next to them as they learn how to use these things. [00:17:28] And then you walk further and further away as they know how to do it. It's like when you teach your kid to ride a bike. We don't go outside these days and see a mom running alongside their young adult son as he rides his bike. That would be embarrassing. 

 

And the reason why we don't is because we did that. When they were little, you run alongside them, you help them sit on it, you put training wheels on it and then the training wheels come off. You don't run alongside them because they can ride. And think of the freedom they got when they learned how to ride the bike. That is the same with each one of these tasks. 

 

So I just encourage you, what is it that you want in your own home for your kids to be able to leave knowing how to do so that when they're faced with these things, they don't have noise in their head? Because there's plenty of other stuff to fill up their minds without having to pay any attention to something that they may not know how to do that when they're little and they're faced with these things. [00:18:26] And let me just say, it's highly likely their friends aren't doing it. They're going down these paths and it just gives them confidence. And it's free. It's in your home. 

 

Sadly, every one of these things never end. They do not go away. Today you will do laundry and put it away or the dishes. It just is a never-ending joy that is a delight to share with the people next to you.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and Kate, let's just go a bit further with a few of these. Which of the 12 was your favorite and your least favorite?

 

Kay Wyma: Oh gosh. So my favorite, the one that we just loved so much, was the serving.  It happened to fall in December. Again, this wasn't something that I was manipulating or thinking it was going to be a book. I did not have any idea it would be a book. 

 

For some reason I started in January, which I guess is a great place to start new things. [00:19:28] But when we hit December, the task for December was every day you'll do an act of service, and if at all possible, not tell the people, so that it was literally serving. 

 

And it didn't have to be big things. Some of it was that we did as a family together, but a lot of it was little things that seem like they're nothing. Like throwing away the trash at lunch that everybody left out and just quietly doing it and walking on, not making any fanfare. 

 

What that did for each of the children was so, so significant. I've even seen that play out recently in the latest book that I pulled together. Just the power of what comes with doing something for somebody else is so significant. Those absolutely are my favorites.

 

Laura Dugger: And then if you had to choose a least favorite, even if you're grateful that you did it, which one was the most unpleasant?

 

Kay Wyma: Oh, you know, probably the yard work. I just am terrible at it. I hope that some of my kids will really enjoy landscaping and doing beautiful things in their yard, but I just am not really great at it. [00:20:40] That sounds ridiculous because it's just yard work. But you can do the things you don't like and do the things that you don't know. And so that's a great lesson in that.

 

Laura Dugger: And now that you've taught your children those 12 skills, are there any extras that you've added since that initial experiment?

 

Kay Wyma: You know, no. And here's why. As we went through the 12 little aspects that were the skills I wanted them to learn, I learned through that process as I started doing it, it started with the cleaning the rooms and the beds and then it moved into the kitchen. As we added on, then we moved to yard work and then we went to the bathroom. 

 

When I was doing that, I would have them do the skill they learned before. Like, okay, now we're adding to the whole thing this. And I learned in the middle not to do that because it just became so much. I was starting to make it about the tasks. Because I think we gravitate toward that. [00:21:38] Tell me how to do it and I'll do it. If it's going to be success on the other end, then I'm in. So I was sitting there going, wait a second, I'm making this all about these skills. I want to go to the heart. I don't want it to be about a task. 

 

So there was this stepping away from the task aspect. And I want to really hit that home because this isn't something like, if you do these things, then your kids are going to be great. This is a heart issue that's woven within each one of these skill sets that will make... absolutely they're good for you. It's sort of like, you know, in scripture do these things so that it may go well for you. Because there are things that we can literally do that make our life a little bit better.

 

But if I'm making my okayness centered around doing these tasks and getting it done well or being sure my kids can do these tasks and do it well, I've lost sight of the human being in the midst of it. And so it became much less about the task even in the middle of doing it and much more about the person and the heart involved along the way. [00:22:44] 

 

There really haven't been things that we've added because it became so much more of a lifestyle and it still is, which I find interesting now that I have our fourth going into college. Our college experience has been so different just because of the pandemic. And so that these kids were equipped in not just knowing how to do it, but this mentality of, I can do it. It's like it's so ingrained in them that even this kid, I was like, have you contacted your advisor? Like, do you sign up for classes? I have no clue what he's doing because he handles it himself. And he was like, I can do this. I've got this covered, you know, all this kind of stuff. 

 

And I'm sitting there in my head thinking of all the moving parts that come into that. And I'm just telling you, there's fear laced in that too. Well, what if he doesn't sign up? You know, there won't be the classes or does he even know where he's living, all these kinds of things that are very regular. [00:23:49] 

 

And then me letting go of whatever's at the core of that, that makes me have a hard time breathing and be able to lean into. He does have this, he knows that we're here to help him if he's stuck. And then that terrible part of like, and if he fails, I know he'll get back up. And how do I know that? Because I've watched it over and over and over and over. 

 

And the getting back up is huge in being able to navigate life. But to have a getting up experience they've had to have fallen. And so that's hard. That's the greatest gift I got from doing this ridiculous experiment that I really do love is that there were gentle falls all along the way. Gentle. So what if they leave the laundry in and forget to put it in the dryer? How many times have we done that? It's a gentle way to allow them to learn. You're going to mess up in this life and it's okay. We all do. But let me tell you something. You can get up. You know how to. And if you don't, I'm next to you to help you. I'm always next to you. But you got this. [00:25:00] You can do this. You can do so much more than you think you can.

 

Laura Dugger: Thanks to our friend, Joy, The Savvy Sauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1st titled Articles. I hope you check out these new savvy snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy. 

 

Even in the introduction of your book, I just love this quote that Michael says about you because it is so relatable. He writes, "She, like many of us, was hovering over praising, giving up her authority and actually making her children's lives more difficult in the future by making their lives easier now." So if that was the past Kay, how would you describe the changes that occurred in your parenting since you originally came to that realization? [00:26:06] 

 

Kay Wyma: My favorite part of that because even reading that or hearing you say that again, I'm like, "Whoa, there's stuff I don't love in that." And the word that I really land on is authority. Giving up her authority. Which that could be taken my authority over my children. But I think actually the authority was that was being given up was God's authority over all of this. Because I had started to believe that the grades that they made were going to somehow impact them or the team that they were on or the group that they were in or all the things that we look to to be able to make our kids okay. 

 

When we hand them over to these things, we're actually handing them over to the authority of the world's ways. That, more than anything, had the greatest impact on our parenting is realizing that the authority is the King of kings, the One who sees all and knows all, the One who has woven within each one of these children, because they're His unique gifting and purpose. And He has also given us this amazing ability to love them and to walk alongside them because they're a part of us. [00:27:29] 

 

I think that's the biggest change is realizing that the story is a lot bigger than what we can say and that the world's winning ways they don't win and they don't get to win.

 

Laura Dugger: I just love your example. First of all, leading with that humility and seeing how far God's brought you, which is really all of our stories of He takes us, you know, when we come as we are and then transforms us hopefully more and more like Christ every day. But this isn't your story anymore where you're making their lives easier now and then it's difficult in the future. It sounds like you've really flipped that where you put the appropriate amount of pressure on them in the younger years and now you're probably getting to reap some of the benefits.

 

Kay Wyma: Well, what's interesting is that in the younger years, it sounds like you're putting something on their plate, but the truth is they love it. When they're little, their whole fight is like, I'm big. [00:28:26] I can do this. And we're like, "Oh no, no, wait, wait."

 

So, honestly, you're actually putting fuel in their tank by putting these things on their plate. They love it. It's so good. The hard part comes in the snarky years where they're like, well, I'm not doing this anymore. And to be able to sit next to them and genuinely let them work their way through it. I think that's been a big part of this. It's been as much of a lesson for me as it has for them and probably more for me, but it goes back to what we've said at the beginning. It's not doing something to them. It's doing something for them and for us. 

 

It puts a lot of meat on these bones of like, you can do anything you put your mind to, you know? It's not like you can be anybody you want to be or anything like that. But it helps us to be able to see their purpose and to see their gifting and to be able to equip them to live in that purpose and gifting, which is probably not the same as yours. [00:29:31] 

 

A lot of it is genetic, but it's going to be different because it's uniquely theirs. And to be able to equip them to live fully and Holy in this is where you are actually setting them up for joy in the midst of toil.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and now that some of your children have grown and launched, how do they look back on this experiment?

 

Kay Wyma: Believe it or not, grateful. Really grateful. And yeah, me too. They really can do this stuff that they look around and a lot of their friends aren't doing. It has turned down the volume on needing to learn things that they've already learned. Just regular things to be able to function in life. So it allows them to do things... It opens your horizons a bit. 

 

I will say this. I really want to point this out. I was talking to a friend of mine the other night because if you have a lot of kids, and even if you don't, you really might have something in your life and then their life that is traumatic. [00:30:37] And so this becomes a nuanced process with a human being that has experienced trauma. 

 

I don't know, Laura, all the answers of how to do that well, because one of our kids had trauma in their life. And so it's a real fine line. It's like, where am I walking alongside? Where am I stepping in? How do I need to step in? Because I know they can't, because the hurt is very loud. And how do we walk through this landscape of hurt? 

 

It could come in the form... you could actually have trauma have happened. You could have a kid with learning differences. You could have a kid that just has sensory issues or anything that makes them different. You can have your child having lived through extreme bullying or whatever it is in their life. There has to be a certain amount of respect given to these things that have a conversation in their thoughts outside of just regular kid stuff. [00:31:40] 

 

That brings a nuance into it that honestly, I did not know when we started this, because I wouldn't have known. But I know now, even walking alongside a young adult going, where's the nuance? Where's the fine line? Always doing that checking. Because no matter what, these people are in your life forever in the greatest way. And it turns into this very genuine walking alongside, which again is such, such a privilege when you can look back and go, they are equipped. They are equipped. 

 

And that's what this experiment was about, was about equipping. Putting tools in their backpack so they could face things in life and see them as opportunities rather than obstacles.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that you use that word "equipped". I've been reading a little bit in Proverbs this week, and a lot of people are familiar with the Proverbs 31 woman, but I love this Amplified version because I think you trained your kids, you helped equip them. And then it seems like the natural progression is with that discipline and training, that then they know how to equip themselves or be self-disciplined. [00:32:52] 

 

So Proverbs 31:17 says, "She equips herself with strength, spiritual, mental, and physical fitness for her God-given task and makes her arms strong." And I just think this is such a practical example, these 12 things that you focused on that you helped equip your children. And now it sounds like they have the self-discipline and desire to equip themselves, with the Lord's help, of course.

 

Kay Wyma: Yeah, that's the key, which really is none of our... that's the part where it's the Lord's strength because there goes the mystery, not by strength, not by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord. He's saying that. There comes that mystery part of the unseen that is hard to let go of in your kid's life and also in your own.

 

But it is this beautiful aspect of like, there is an equipping part and all that comes with it, which isn't just learning how to do something. It's the perseverance. It's the other centeredness that almost comes with every single task that is woven within it too, which I'm convinced is for us. [00:34:01] It's for us. And how would we ever know it if we didn't do them?

 

Laura Dugger: This book was not the end of your writing journey. 

 

Kay Wyma: No. 

 

Laura Dugger: So where would you direct everyone if they wanted to find or follow you online?

 

Kay Wyma: Well, you can come to kaywyma.com and be bored because sometimes I write on it and sometimes I don't. I'm just kidding. But I do love Instagram #KayWyma on Instagram. I would love for anybody to come and just... life is so much better together always. And I hope if you connect with anything that I do, that it will be a together walking alongside because we're on this planet together for a reason. Life is better together. [00:34:44] 

 

Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to those places so people can join together and learn more. You may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Kay, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Kay Wyma: Well, I have to say that coming out of this project, the Cleaning House, the experiment to rid our home of youth entitlement, the savvy sauce that I got really was purpose. That every single person is uniquely gifted, like a part of the Lord woven in you that is uniquely yours, that He has given you the purpose in gifting. I love it. I love that for myself because it gives you so much freedom, and I love it for my kids because it really has become a fun game to be able to say, What is your purpose in gifting? And how can we practically equip and learn in that giftedness, having to do all the other stuff too, but to really hone in on this purpose that you've got because the joy that comes with it? [00:35:51] I'm so thankful to have seen that through that process. I'm not sure I would have caught it.

 

Laura Dugger: Kay, just a few things that I appreciate from today. I think you're so inspiring. I love how this overflow of your sweet relationship with the Lord just comes forth in the way that you parent and your positivity and your enthusiasm and everything that you've shared with us today. I think you've given us a lot of good starting places. And then you've also given us your savvy sauce. You've given us purpose in that, that we know we can do it with the Lord and do it together, and that it really is a blessing in parenting. So thank you for being my guest today.

 

Kay Wyma: Well, thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. [00:36:52] Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:37:57] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:39:03] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

163 Beneficial Rhythms in Marriage with Chris and Jenni Graebe

163. Beneficial Rhythms in Marriage with Chris and Jenni Graebe

 

“Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom.” Psalm 90:12 (NIV)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What marital habits are worthy of prioritizing for the two of you and what return have you seen on this investment?

2. How can couples begin to take inventory of their current marriage and then move towards purposefully implementing healthier rhythms into their relationship?

3. What are some examples of ways the two of you serve each other and stay committed to one another’s well-being and flourishing?

 

Chris and Jenni Graebe are lifelong learners intent on discovering the core rhythms of thriving relationships. Chris and Jenni are the cohosts of The Live it Well podcast, where they interview countless couples to discover what makes relationships thrive. They live deep in the trees of Franklin, TN, with their five children.

 

Chris and Jenni's Website

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Rhythm of Us

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

163. Beneficial Rhythms in Marriage with Chris and Jenni Graebe

 

“Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom.” Psalm 90:12 (NIV)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What marital habits are worthy of prioritizing for the two of you and what return have you seen on this investment?

2. How can couples begin to take inventory of their current marriage and then move towards purposefully implementing healthier rhythms into their relationship?

3. What are some examples of ways the two of you serve each other and stay committed to one another’s well-being and flourishing?

 

Chris and Jenni Graebe are lifelong learners intent on discovering the core rhythms of thriving relationships. Chris and Jenni are the cohosts of The Live it Well podcast, where they interview countless couples to discover what makes relationships thrive. They live deep in the trees of Franklin, TN, with their five children.

 

Chris and Jenni's Website

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Rhythm of Us

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

First, I want to say happy birthday to my sweet mom. She is the most loving, nurturing, and kind-hearted mom, and we want to honor her on her special day. So, from our editor, Natalie, and myself, happy birthday, mom. We love you. 

 

I now also get to host a charming couple today, and we're going to talk about one of my favorite topics, healthy rhythms in marriage.

 

Chris and Jenni Graebe are my guests, and they love each other well, model what they teach to others, and they've written down their wisdom in a marriage book they recently released. [00:01:26] I hope this chat leaves you encouraged and equipped with conversation starters and thought-provoking questions to ask yourself and your spouse as you enjoy all the goodness God has to offer us in marriage. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Chris and Jenni. 

 

Chris Graebe: Hey.

 

Jenni Graebe: Thank you so much for having us, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, so excited to talk with the two of you. Will you both just give a glimpse of your current phase of life? 

 

Jenni Graebe: Oh, sure. It's a wild season of life for us. We have five kids ranging from four to 16, one boy and four girls. So we've got two teenagers and three little ones, and it is just a beautiful, chaotic season.

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah, filled with a lot of carpooling and running around, but just stealing away moments of just fun and trying as best we can to soak up all the different seasons collectively together. Like last night we had the opportunity to sit on our back porch where the kids played and laughed and danced and had the cafe lights on. [00:02:28] You know, those are the moments. So that's a quick glimpse into our world. There may be a lot too many dishes in the sink, but, you know, other than that, it's a good life. 

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Can you share a little bit more about your careers too? Because you've been on this path of, in your marriage, moving around multiple times, so your seasons have looked different. But what do the two of you do for work?

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah, sure. I mean, look, you know, when Jenni married me, you're going to talk about this book we've written, but one of the things we talk about is this idea of adventure. So when we got married, she knew she was signing up for adventure, and so we decided just let's go for it.

 

So we've lived all over the place, both of the coast, the middle of the country, a lot of time in Texas. Throughout those seasons, it was seasons of ministry and entrepreneurship. In my very early days, I was on this little TV network called MTV. I was on a show called Road Rules. Jenni was a singer in those days, and she was wearing pleather pants. [00:03:29] 

 

Jenni Graebe: Let's not mention the pleather pants. You know, let's be nice.

Chris Graebe: So we've just had this wild ride. And so now where we find ourselves is, obviously, we have a podcast called The Rhythm of Us. We're authors. We did this book, The Rhythm of Us, you know, I'm an entrepreneur through and through, so I've got a couple ventures that I'm working on. So there's never a dull moment in our life.

 

Jenni Graebe: Never a dull moment, for sure.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, it sounds very full. We won't digress too much, but I'm sure everybody asks, how did you get on Road Rules? 

 

Chris Graebe: Is it weird to say Jesus? I mean, it's like, I don't know. Did God do that? 

 

Jenni Graebe: It was a God deal.

 

Chris Graebe: It was totally a God deal, you know. I mean, my whole thing was... as a kid growing up in the 80s and 90s, MTV was at the height, was at the pinnacle. It was the early reality show before all the spinoffs had come, and I just... I don't know, God had wired me to ultimately I sit in front of a microphone now, and, you know, obviously through this and various different places He's put me on stages throughout my career. But as a young, influential whatever, you want to change the world. [00:04:33] And so, like, what's a place I could go that could happen and I don't have to have a lot of skills? I could just go be crazy on MTV.

 

So anyway, luckily I had encountered Jesus right before I went on the show and had the opportunity to share my faith and my walk and just hopefully honor God throughout that adventure. So that's how that worked. It was a wild ride. But, you know, those days are gone that people stop me on the street and go, were you the guy from...? So I don't get a lot of those anymore. 

 

Laura Dugger: Which I'm sure with that transition into marriage that was a very unique element for the two of you. 

 

Jenni Graebe: It was. 

 

Laura Dugger: It was for sure. 

 

Chris Graebe: Well, yeah. I mean, you know, the funny thing is, just to kind of talk about the idea of adventure, is I had done a couple little challenges. They have these big challenges return thing, and they called me and said, "Hey, we've got this challenge, Battle of the Sexes 2. Do you want to be a cast member on it?" I was like, "Heck yeah, that'd be awesome." 

 

Well, we were engaged, and we were planning to get married. [00:05:31] We had a date on the calendar and everything, and they were like, "Hey, we picked you." And I'm like, "Oh, cool, when's the show?" They're like, "Well, it starts two weeks before your marriage." I was like, "Oh, for my wedding day?" "Yeah." "Okay. How's that going to work?" So I went and filmed for two weeks. Jenni was a trooper. I hadn't gotten kicked off yet, so I flew back that weekend. We got married, and then I went back to the show for three days.

 

And then just said, "Kick me off. I've got to go be with my bride." But yeah, it was an adventure from the beginning, that's for sure. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Well, you've documented some of that journey, because your marriage book is fantastic. 

 

Jenni Graebe: Oh, thank you. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, I mean that. It's called Rhythms of Us: Creating the Thriving Marriage You Long For. So because you wrote the book on it, I'd love to know what marital habits are worthy of prioritizing for the two of you and what return have you seen on that investment?

 

Jenni Graebe: That's a great question. [00:06:31] Really, the whole idea of this book is not just cataloging the rhythms that are true of us, but also of the wise people around us. We've been married 17 years, and that is a good amount of time. But also, we have been blessed with so many couples that God has put in our life that have a lot of fruit in their lives. 

 

They're the kind of couples that just stop you in their tracks, because they're still somehow wildly in love after decades of marriage. And those are the kind of people that we want to learn from, we want to sit with, we want to lean into learning their rhythms. 

 

So we try to find that balance in this book of finding those rhythms that are true, not just of us, but of the couples in our lives that have incredible marriages. And how can we find the top five rhythms that really have carried them and base the book around those? So that's what we did. We found five rhythms that are true of those couples and that have brought a lot of fruit in our marriage as well, and based it around those. [00:07:32] 

 

Laura Dugger: And on page 14, you write, "Before we can fill our lives with the rhythms we value most, it's important to identify the practices we don't." Now that makes me curious, what are some examples of practices that you've realized you don't value and you don't want to value?

 

Jenni Graebe: That's a great question. I think there's so many. After 17 years, there's been a lot of ups and downs, obviously. We talk about in the book that there are certain rhythms, certain habits that might be good in the beginning of your marriage, but after 17 years and five kids, we have to shift. We have to look at our lives and ask, Okay, is this good for us now? What are some of those things that we need to let go of that used to bring fruit in our lives, but they're no longer bringing fruit? 

 

That could be anything from spending all day Saturday going to play basketball with friends at the gym. That was fine when we were first married because it was just the two of us. But now with five kids, giving up a whole Saturday of family time to go play basketball with friends is just not a rhythm that would bring life to us, to our marriage, or to our family. [00:08:42] So that's something that we needed to let go of.

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah. I mean, you could equate it to somebody listening here thinking like, you know, golf is great. People love golf, but I can't imagine telling Jenni, Hey, I'm going to leave for five hours on these two days where our kids aren't in school and we all have each other. I'm not saying that you don't go play basketball here and there, or golf here and there. But I think it's just starting to acknowledge like, Hey, you know, this season has changed. Our seasons have changed. Our kids have different needs. Our marriage has different needs. What is that thing that... you know, we talk about where rhythms become ruts in the book? You know, what are some of those things that have kind of become a rut and aren't really bringing life to our marriage?

 

At the end of the day, hopefully the longer you're in this thing, the more you start to take your eyes off yourself. Because, you know, we got married at 24, you know. It's like your still eyes are pretty much on yourself. So we've been working through that over 17 years and still plenty to go. 

 

But you start to appreciate the moments you have with your family, the same you did with basketball, if not more, especially as you have teenagers that start to getting close to exiting the building. [00:09:49] You're like, Oh my gosh, I've got two years left with this kid. And it's a really crazy dynamic to then turn and look at the 4-year-old and go, I know how fast this is going to go. This is just as important as basketball or golf. Those things are great. But how do I cherish these moments just like I cherish those and find these new rhythms in a new season?

 

Laura Dugger: I think that you're just bringing to life 1 Corinthians 13. And I'm just going to paraphrase. I do not have it memorized. But as we're talking about hobbies for either spouse, it says something about when I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things. 

 

Jenni Graebe: Right. 

 

Laura Dugger: To me, it doesn't mean that golf or basketball are childish. But like you're saying, you're choosing what that is the love chapter. So you're choosing love and others over some hobby that only benefits you at that time. So then it sounds like these rhythms they're transferring to still maybe you enjoy those recreational things, but you do this more together. [00:10:48] 

 

So I'm wondering, though, for the couple listening, maybe they're on more of a parallel trajectory, and whether they have kids in the home or not, how do you recommend they start to make these discoveries? First of, what rhythms are in their life currently that are not beneficial?

 

Jenni Graebe: Yeah, there's a great tool that we talk about in the book that actually comes from one of our favorite psychologists, Dr. Henry Cloud. And it's called Find the Misery and Make a Rule, which sounds very lofty, but it's very simple. All it means is that you take a look at your life and you recognize those pain points that keep showing up over and over and over. And then you follow the trail of that to the root.

 

If you can, you can try to set a limit or make a rule there to keep that from happening. This is something that we use constantly in our lives, from big things to small things. I'll give you a couple examples. 

 

One of the things that kept coming up in our marriage pretty early on was that as a stay-at-home mom with a bunch of little kids that I absolutely love and adore and that I was grateful to spend my weeks with, come Thursday, I was absolutely exhausted. [00:11:59] I was ready for a break, and it showed in the way that I was living my life.

 

Chris Graebe: No, no, it was fine.

 

Jenni Graebe: It was something that we could all recognize. To make a rule against that exhaustion coming out against my family, Chris very lovingly said, "Hey, every Friday we're going to start something. You need to go and just get a couple hours just by yourself to fill back up. Do whatever brings you life, whatever refuels your tank." 

 

And for me, that usually looks like going and finding a pretty trail out in the trees that I can walk. It looks like spending time with the Lord at a coffee shop where I can just think complete thoughts without interruptions. And I'm telling you, that has made the biggest difference in our life, in our marriage. I always come back a better mom, I always come back a better spouse, and just feeling more alive and ready to jump back in with time with my family. [00:12:58] 

 

But it took us really examining our life and our rhythms to go, Okay, let's just look at this. Every Thursday I am feeling exhausted. I'm feeling miserable. I'm feeling like I need something to change here. And then putting a rule in place where, Okay, this is something that we can practice, that we can prioritize as a family so that you can thrive as well.

 

Chris Graebe: Another example just for everybody listening is, you know, you hear all these people have a lot of issues with family, like extended family. Like, okay, you get married, you get in, and it's like, Oh, okay, we've got 15 things we have to go through for Thanksgiving. We have to go to this house for Thanksgiving and this house, and they'll be so mad if we don't do X, Y, and Z.

 

I think one of the things we kind of established early on, I don't know if it was like we kind of knew how intentional it was being, but we just decided to put some boundaries there and go like, Look, everyone loves each other. We're all for each other. We can't make everyone happy all the time. So what's the best thing we can do? What are some boundaries or some rules or some principles we can put in place that for our family is a rule that we can follow and then go, Hey, rest of the family, we love you and we look forward to seeing you. We have a blast when we're together. [00:14:07] But here's some boundaries we're setting in place. Because sometimes you can find a lot of misery in that you're trying to please everyone, make everyone happy, get on time with this person's house. Like you have gifts for everybody, you know, the whole thing. It just can be wild.

 

I'm sure everyone listening has no clue what I'm talking about in this regard, but it's definitely... that's just another practical example of how you can find the misery, make a rule. Ultimately it brings life for yourself, your spouse and everyone involved when you're able to kind of put the right rules in place and operate in essence the way God's called you to walk. 

 

Laura Dugger: These are such wise principles. And I love how you say that the two of you examined your rhythms. What did that actually look like? I'm wondering, did you go on a date night to do this? Is this after the kids are in bed? But how did you do it and how can other couples begin to take inventory of their marriage and then move toward purposefully implementing healthier rhythms into their relationship? [00:15:03] 

 

Jenni Graebe: That's a great question. Actually, the last part of the book is just this exactly. There are three sections walking you through different questions that you can ask each other that really help you pinpoint the rhythms that bring you both life. There's a section in there where you can talk through the vision that you both have for your marriage so that you make sure you're actually trying to head in the right direction and you're going the same place. You're not having two separate different visions of your marriage and then wondering why the other one can't get on the same page. So that is really helpful.

 

I think for us, we love talking. We have a podcast where we talk to guests and all kinds of things, but we've always enjoyed just talking with each other and having great conversations. So, for us, that looks like at least a couple of times a week, you can find us in the mornings with our hot cups of coffee in our chairs, having a great talk.

 

That is usually where we really hash through some of these things that are coming up in our hearts, in our lives, in our family, where we examine, you know, things that have come up during the week, whether it's a rut or rhythm. [00:16:09] 

 

You know, there's definitely room to talk about the great things that are happening in our life. Like Chris mentioned, sitting outside with our kids watching them play underneath the cafe lights. That brings us so much life. We're like, We've got to do this more. We have to make space for this more so that we can enjoy this. 

 

And there's also pain points that we can talk through like, okay, Hey, when you came in the door this week on your phone, that really stole away from us getting you all to ourselves. So let's put a rhythm in place or let's put a rule in place where, all right, you can finish up all of your work stuff before you walk in the door so that we can just have you all to ourselves as soon as you come to the door.

 

Chris Graebe: We are trying to give people a framework where they can have an honest, open conversation and nobody's pointing the finger. Because when I asked the question, are you in rhythm or are you out of rhythm, people can immediately go, Well, you know what? We're in rhythm on budgeting, but we're really out of rhythm on communication or we're out of rhythm and intimacy, but we're in rhythm on working together with the kids. [00:17:07] 

 

So really this book and the way we're approaching it and the idea of giving someone a framework is everyone is wired so differently. But if we can all come from this place to go, "Look, you're not the problem. I'm not the problem. This thing is out of rhythm. Now let's work together and have whatever the framework is that works best for us as a couple." The longer we're married, the more we understand. Don't talk to him at night cause he's sleepy. Don't try and catch her at the very beginning, right when she's waking up before she's had her coffee. Learn those spots where you can have that healthy conversation. 

 

Some people need prep. Some people want to just dive in and talk. You start to understand that then you can really craft and go, Okay, I think we're out of rhythm over here. 

 

You know, maybe one agrees or don't, but you did have a framework to say, well, let's just work through it and see how we can find ourselves back in rhythm so we both feel like we're thriving in this area of our marriage. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you use that word "thriving". And I think that's really important because this model that you're laying out, to me, it sounds like such an exciting way to naturally minimize conflict while maximizing delight. [00:18:11] You're just being more intentional about how you spend your time in your lives together. 

 

We won't go through all the rhythms because people have to read the book to get that. But one of them is speaking life. I'd just love to hear how the two of you practice that valued rhythm of speaking life.

 

Jenni Graebe: This is this idea of choosing intentionally to speak words of life over your marriage, over your spouse, and then eventually over your family when you have kids or if you do. It's so important. Really, just like the Bible says, we have the power to choose blessing or cursing. We have the power to create that culture in our marriage by the words that we speak.

 

This was something that Chris really did early on in our marriage, very naturally. And I talk about in the book how this was so hard for me to do at first because I just didn't grow up in a family where we did that. [00:19:11] We thought lots of wonderful things about each other, but we didn't actually speak them out loud a lot.

 

And so if you're not used to it, it can be kind of awkward at first. But over time, learning how to do that and seeing how easy it was for Chris and how much it meant to him. When I just took the time to speak out loud, the wonderful things I was already thinking about him, he just needed to hear that. And I needed to become the kind of person that could speak those words out loud to him. It changed me as well as I practiced it, and it shaped me to become the kind of person who could look for the good, look for the gifting in him, and speak it out loud.

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah. I imagine people are wondering, okay, we're really weak in this area of our marriage or whatever. Maybe the words we speak to each other are maybe snide, funny comments, or whatever. But this whole life thing, what do I do? Walk in, You are beautiful and wonderfully made. Not that. 

 

The way it can play itself out is pretty simple. Like there's a moment where I'll catch her eye and we're sitting there at the dinner table and I just think to myself, man, she is so beautiful and I just stop and tell our kids, my guys, do you know how unbelievable beautiful and amazing your mom is? [00:20:25] And in that moment they're like, we know you always tell us. I'm like, that's right. You're never going to not hear me say that. 

 

But in that moment, it's something I'm doing public in front of the kids or whatever, you know, but it's the seeds that are being sown all across the place for her, for them, that hopefully the example for their future spouse, that they will find someone that tells them that they are beautiful and lovely and thank them for the work that they're doing that no one sees, you know, when it's like, Hey, thank, thank you so much for doing the laundry today because, one, I hate the laundry, and two, this doesn't just get done by itself.

 

A lot of times that's just a thankless thing that no one sees. The kids are running up one, mom, thank you so much for doing my laundry today. Sometimes they do. But most of the times it's just like, oh, cool, there's magical clothes that show back up in this drawer. I think if we think it and we say it, it can start really practical, Hey, thank you so much. Depending on if you're in a rough spot in your marriage. Hey, I just want to say thank you for providing for us, for showing up every day and doing your job. [00:21:27] 

 

And then you'll be amazed how that unlocks the heart just a little bit of someone who maybe is in this like couples, it's been in a tough spot and they haven't spoken life to each other in a really long time. You just like, okay, let's just type little what can I find that, that they're doing that I value and I appreciate. I'm going to speak this life and I'm going to sow a seed that's going to continue to crack the door just a little bit more. And you'll be amazed what reciprocation comes on the other side of that. It's going to take a little bit of practice, but once you get into it, you'll never want to stop.

 

Jenni Graebe: Yeah. I want to take a minute too, and just acknowledge that I get that there are moments in a marriage or there are seasons where it's really hard to find anything good to speak out loud, whatever the circumstances, whatever has led you there. I know there are really hard seasons in a marriage. And you might be listening thinking, I can't think of one nice thing to say about my spouse. 

 

And I just want to encourage you there that what you lack, pray for. I love that's what the Bible says. [00:22:27] I just think that so many times. Like, what you lack, pray for it. Just ask God. The best place to start is prayer. Just ask God to help you see your spouse as he does. And there is always something good, even if it's small, just like Chris said, there is always something good that you can acknowledge. 

 

In the book, we talk about three ways to do this. You can affirm the good, you can affirm the gift and you can affirm the truth. What that simply means is that you affirm the good by exactly what Chris said, just whatever good that you can possibly see as you're asking for God to give you eyes to see that, just speak it out loud.

 

If they're playing with the kids, just say, "Oh my gosh, you're such a great dad. Thanks for, thanks for being incredible. Thanks for playing with our kids." If they're doing the ditches, even if it's not the way that you would like them done, you can say, "Hey, thanks for helping out. That really means a lot." You affirm whatever good you see around you.

 

You can also take this to another level by affirming the gift in your spouse. Affirm the gifts and abilities and talents that you see. [00:23:29] Every single human has these things. God has given us all gifts and abilities. And how powerful for you as their spouse, the most important person in their life to be the one to acknowledge those things and to water those seeds that you see of gifting and dreams and abilities.

 

If you see that their eyes light up whenever they do something, you can say, Wow, I noticed like you just come alive doing this. Maybe there's something there. Maybe God's given you, you know, an ability here. What can we do to grow this and to water this? 

 

Maybe every time you drive by a restaurant, they say, Oh man, wouldn't it be great to open a restaurant someday? You have the choice in that moment to either go, "Yeah, whatever," or say, "Tell me more about this. Is this a dream that you have? Like, is there something here that we could pursue together as a couple? You know?" So that's just an example of finding the gifting and affirming the gift. 

 

And then the last one, which I think might be the most powerful, is affirming the truth. [00:24:31] So in hard seasons, when your spouse might not be acting the way that you wish they would or the way that they used to, you know who they truly are. You can ask God to remind you who they truly are. And then you can affirm who you know them to be instead of how they're acting. 

 

I love what Henry Cloud says. That maturity in life and in marriage is being able to separate the people that we love from the behaviors that we don't. So in those seasons, we can look at how they're acting and we can separate that from who we really truly know them to be. And we can speak to that person. We can speak to the potential instead of to the behavior.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:25:16] <music>

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage.

 

Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. 

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. 

 

During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. 

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

[00:26:33] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I love everything you're saying. I want to take it a step further because you've talked about the words that we can speak and how we can do this publicly and privately, and how really it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where what you're seeing and calling out and speaking over your spouse, you get to see that rise up in them. That's the verbal part. But then the actionable part of serving each other, I'd love to hear some more of your practical examples. So what are ways that the two of you serve each other and stay committed to one another's well-being and flourishing? 

 

Chris Graebe: I think that's one of these things... you know, Jenni talks about how, you know, speaking life and words, it wasn't really a thing for her. Serving was definitely Achilles heel for me. We got married at 24. Like I said, my eyes were pretty much fixed on myself and the idea of going and changing the world through career and all that. 

 

So we had a kid pretty early on in our marriage and our son Caden, it was like, okay, well, we both agree you're going to stay home with him and I'm going to go out and do whatever. [00:27:39] The story is pretty typical for most. But I think through a season through over the season years and Jenni just like being so faithful and just so kind and generous with her time and patient with me is I'm like, maybe we're going to try this. Let's do that. 

 

You talked about early in the beginning of the podcast, we moved across the country. We did. We moved all over the world, you know, all over the country. And it was fun and it was great. That was a part of Jenni serving me and some of the dreams and visions I had. 

 

But I think the longer we're in this game and the more I continue to take my eyes off myself and look at her, yes, practically can play itself out in day-to-day tasks and chores. Like what needs to be done? You know, these dishes aren't going to be done by themselves. You need to do that. It also plays itself out and going like, Hey, just like we talk about the Fridays, like, Hey, I need you to have this Friday or whatever. 

 

But the other thing is kind of what Jenni was talking about is this idea that there is this person that God has gifted you with. This person that He said, yeah, that's your spouse. And you said yes to them as well. [00:28:37] And marriage is such a gift. And the fact that somebody else said yes to you and they said yes to you again today because they showed up and they're there. Now, like Jenni said, it can be tough. 

 

I think part of serving that we started to discover is like when I took my eyes off myself, I was able to look at Jenny and say, Hey, what are your dreams? What are the things that are inside of you that I can help bring to life and see become a reality? 

 

That was something that I think... once that started to happen and she stepped into some things like the podcast we did and now we're writing this book, I think she even didn't even realize that there was something there that God had put inside her that she needed to do. And she kind of looked at me after one of our first podcasts and was like, don't ever let me not do something like this again. Don't ever let me not put my hands to something that I feel like I'm stepping into. 

 

It's scary and it's challenging, but it's just amazing for me. On the other side is I served her and asked, you know, what is her dreams? And then seeing her step in and thrive, it was just truly a moment. [00:29:38] So there's just multiple ways we can serve our spouse. It's in the day-to-day. And then a lot of times it's in the dreamings, but at the same time, just recognizing them as such a gift from God is really true of the first step.

 

Jenni Graebe: Jan Peterson has a really small, great book on serving. That was kind of her gifting. But she says we all start off self-centered. Our wants are our world. That's just natural. And so it takes a lot of time and intentionality to learn a different way to live. 

 

But what we say in the book is that, you know, no marriage can thrive when our eyes are consistently focused on ourselves. That is just a fact. If I continue to live ignoring my spouse's needs, that will eventually explode. Our marriage will not last if I'm not also considering his needs as well as mine. 

 

Actually, the greatest joy is found when we are able to do just that, when we're able to shift our eyes from our own wants and needs to actually noticing and nurturing the needs of our spouse. 

 

There's something we talk about in the book called the cycle of serving. So essentially, what that looks like is when we take a small step of noticing a need in our spouse that we can serve, shifting our eyes from our own needs, and we start to meet those needs. [00:30:56] Step by step, we move towards this place of strength and thriving in our marriage where we look up and go, how did I get so blessed to have this spouse? And I'm constantly looking at how I can meet their needs, and I'm so grateful that they're meeting my needs. It's wonderful. 

 

Then the opposite is true as well, where if by step by step, over time, we make the choice to neglect our spouse's needs or to think only of ourselves, over time, where we end up is, man, I wish they would just wake up and meet my needs. And if you have thought that to yourself lately, it's a good indicator that you are at the bottom of that cycle. 

 

But the good news is we are always one step away from moving back in the right direction towards the thriving marriage that we long for. And it all starts with just taking a moment to get my eyes off myself and noticing who my spouse is, how God's wired them, and how I can meet their needs in that place. [00:31:55] 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. As you're saying all of this, it seems like oftentimes the wife, especially in this situation that you're talking about, when she chooses to stay home with the kids, she is all in for supporting her husband's dreams and desires. And yet, Chris, you did an incredible job of humbly looking to her as well and calling out Jenni for she still has gifts that are beyond the children and maybe beyond the marriage that God has given her. 

 

So you called that to life, but you helped her develop it. So would you just speak to the husbands now and talk about that responsibility and that privilege and the goodness that you've seen from committing to helping her pursue growth? 

 

Chris Graebe: Yeah. I wish I could say, like, from day one, I was like, oh, man. But I think, you know, with anything, as we grew deeper together and walked through some hard seasons and different things like that, it was just like, wow. [00:32:55] Like, my love and my appreciation, my value for her just continued to increase. 

 

You know, we had a season early on where we got pregnant, and then I think she was just going, like, you know, what about me? What about my identity? God put a season where things were tough, and so she had to kinda get a job. I was working during the night. She was working during the days. And I think it was a moment where she just said, "Okay. You know what? You go work. We'll stay home." That was kind of a gift that God gave us. And we didn't know, you know, is this forever kind of thing, but we just kinda dove headlong, five kids. I mean, we were in the thick of it. 

 

But I think there's this place where it's like I look around at my wife and she'd be leading things at church and... she just was a magnet. People would be drawn to her. Jenni talked about giftings. I mean, she just got a lot of giftings. She's the one with the college degree. She's the smart one. You know? 

 

For me, I think I just had to stop and look and go, Hey, you know what? How can I continue to ask? [00:33:52] There'd be seasons she's like, "No. I love this. This is great. This is exactly where we are." And I don't even know if she really even had words to say, "Hey, this season's coming." 

 

But I think the more we pray and God starts to stir, right, I think there's that thing. Like you said, if you're listening, fellas, if you're listening to what she's saying and you're looking at what's happened in your life, and maybe there's some margin coming in her life or maybe you need to help create that margin in her life and go, you know what? Before we got married, you had these skills, you have these giftings, and you maybe haven't tapped into it for years now, but now you've got all this life experience and you've been leading this Bible study over here or whatever that looks like. Maybe you're a fitness trainer, whatever that is and however it plays out in her life, you know, just kinda stoke the fires a little bit. Just kinda see if you can spark.

 

Just throw a spark out there and go, does this catch? Is this something God wants? Are we hitting a bunch of doors here? Are we trying to force something? But then, ultimately, you can go like, "No. I think that's it." And then you'll be amazed at what happens inside of her when she goes, "Maybe that is it. Oh my gosh. I wasn't even thinking about that, but here we are."  [00:34:54] 

 

Then you can kind of fan that into flame and say, yeah, now this is something here. And maybe nothing comes of it. But the fact that you can sit across from her and say, I see you. I hear you. I see the giftings inside of you. Is there anything else that you've got a desire for? Because she may not even know she has it, or she may have it just waiting for you to actually ask. And then guess what? Once you know and once you hear, then you're responsible, and you gotta figure out how to help bring that to life. And you can do it through baby steps. Doesn't mean you mortgage the house to go, okay, well, let's put $50,000 on the house so you can start this business. Just seek God. Do it together. Be prayerful. 

 

Guys, challenge, push, encourage, in the right way, and you watch what will happen to your spouse. She will fall more in love with you and be more appreciative. Even if nothing happens, she'll go, "Wow. This person actually truly loves me. He's not just thinking of themselves." 

 

Laura Dugger: What I hear you saying, Chris, is that you noticed Jenni. You asked her about these things continuously. You would start these conversations. And then you also took it a step further, and you felt the responsibility to act on that. And I think that is such a great model. [00:36:08] 

 

You also write about something related on page 70 where you say, "Thriving couples are thoroughly interested in each other's lives." So what do you two think keeps us from focusing on each other's needs on a regular basis? 

 

Jenni Graebe: I mean, I think our wants are our world. That's just how we naturally function. So it does take time and intentionality to start learning to live differently. I think something that Chris does really well and I'm so grateful for and that we've come to practice together is just making room for each other's dreams. 

 

You know, like he talked about not just acknowledging them and encouraging them, but putting action behind that by making room for it and making it a priority in our life together. There are a thousand different ways that we can choose to live our life. 

 

So I show my husband that I believe in him and his dreams by making space for him to do some of those things that cause him to come alive. We talk about in the book that the research actually shows that we are most enamored with and drawn to our spouse when we're able to see them doing that thing, whatever their thing is that makes them come alive. [00:37:18] 

 

There is not a spouse in the world who won't be drawn to their spouse in that setting, whatever it is for them that they do that causes them, you know, their eyes to sparkle and for them to just come alive. We all love seeing our spouse in those environments where they can do that. So then it becomes our responsibility to make room for them to say yes to some of those things. 

 

An example that we talk about in the book is when Chris travels for work, anybody who has kids in the house or their spouse travels, you know when you're single parenting it at home, it can be tough, and you kind of, at least I do, I ration out my energy for each day and I know how much I'm going to need to be able to keep up with the energy of these energetic toddlers that are running around our house. 

 

It was a week like that, and we were coming to the end of the week. Chris had been gone for three days and I knew he was going to be home that night. So I had reserved just enough energy in the tank to make sure that I was keeping up with these kids. [00:38:18] 

 

And I got a call from Chris and he said, "Hey, babe, listen, before I tell you what's going on, I just want you to know, if you say, no, I need you at home, I will absolutely jump on a plane and I'll be home. But I have this opportunity." And he was given the opportunity to go and interview Mike Tyson and Dennis Rodman in this... take a private jet there. It was just like this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 

 

And, of course, I know for him, this is what he does. He is so good at hosting. If you give him the mic, he comes alive being able to lean into conversations and talk with people and navigate those settings. I have seen it a million times, and I love watching him do it. It makes him come alive, and it draws me to him as his spouse. 

 

So my reaction was absolutely, "Please go do that. And we're going to be cheering you on at home." I knew it wasn't going to be easy for me. There were sacrifices that I was going to have to make because I was out of energy. So I had to come up with a different plan moving forward so that he could do that. [00:39:20] But I knew the value in it. I knew he was gonna come back on cloud nine, and we were gonna get the joy of watching him do something that he's made to do. So that's just an example. 

 

Chris Graebe: I mean, you know, sitting across from Mike Tyson in that moment was really amazing. But it is true. I mean, that's a moment. That's an Instagram picture. Right? And it moves on. But the beauty is that I know that I've got this partner, this teammate in my beautiful wife that's like, Hey, let's go on an adventure. It only just stores up so much in the bank, and it makes me just so thankful in those moments because there's gonna be a moment when she calls and goes, Hey, I've got this adventure in front of me, and I can't wait to say yes to it. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. And I have to just give a shout out to my husband, Mark, as well. I feel like he models and leads this so well and so selflessly. Even today, this is how it looked. I guess last night, we thought one of our daughters was coming down with something, and so instantly, I'm texting the babysitter and keeping her posted about today, and I was looking forward to this recording. [00:40:28] And I started thinking, "Okay, how am I going to reschedule?" And he, right away, said, "Babe, I will change my plans around with work. I'm going to make sure this happens. I will absolutely keep the kids. You've got this on the calendar. It's important. I wanna help you in that." And all is well. God answered prayers. She's totally fine. No fever or anything. 

 

Jenni Graebe: That's awesome. 

 

Laura Dugger: I'm grateful that this worked, but I'm so glad to know that does make me more drawn to him and more aware of ways I can then also turn to him and see what I can be doing to take a load off his shoulders or to make his life easier or just to support his dreams. So I think it is a really great cycle. And when someone goes first, it's really hard not to follow after them. 

 

Hey, everyone. By now, I hope you've checked out our articles that are available at thesavvysauce.com. And if you sign up to join our email list, you'll enjoy free ideas and encouragement delivered straight to your inbox. [00:41:32] 

 

Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So the freebies will oftentimes include questions you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your sexual intimacy in marriage, or questions to ask yourself to promote spiritual growth. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the articles tab. 

 

Well, what has God taught you both about the application of Psalm 90:12, which says, "Teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom." 

 

Jenni Graebe: Well, that's one of my favorite verses. I love that. Chris and I were talking about this verse last night preparing for this, you know, that numbering our days means remembering that they're a gift. Right? It means practicing the rhythm of awe that we talk about in our book. It means remembering, wow, every moment that I've been given is a gift from God, and I wanna make it count. [00:42:31] And I love that it starts by saying, teach us. Right? Teach us to number our days. Because we have to be taught. This doesn't come naturally to us. But it's something we have to cry out to the Lord for. Teach us, Lord, to number our days, to make them count, to live a life of gratitude back to You by enjoying this life that You've given me, by making the most of it, by cherishing my spouse, by cherishing my kids, by contributing to my community. You know, that's what it means to us. Numbering our days means remembering they're all a gift. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, then I think also of times that things aren't going well, how do we know when we're reaching our breaking point, and how can we identify when our spouse is maybe nearing the same place? 

 

Chris Graebe: I think that just comes from, again, taking our eyes off ourself and looking at the situation, understanding what produces stress in our spouse, and also understanding the stress tolerance of our spouses. Like, sometimes, for me, I kinda like stressful situations, but that doesn't mean that everyone around me isn't in the fetal position in the corner because I'm like, This is amazing. It's like, wait, wait, wait, hold on, man. Let's think about everyone in this scenario. [00:43:43] 

 

I think when you find yourself in those seasons and spots, I think if we can go, okay, what do I know that is the where we can go and we can kinda just connect, have a conversation? You know, we gotta get to that place where we earn trust and we're going, Hey, I see this happening here. Does this feel right to you? Does this seem true to you? We definitely seem like we're out of rhythm over here. Here's what I'm able to do to contribute to this, to help, you know, serve you in this way. And then you don't know what kind of the reciprocation of that's gonna be. Maybe they need a minute. You know? 

 

Some of us can forgive right away and go, "Hey. Are we good?" And others are like, "No. No. I need a little bit of time here. You had a season where you've had your eyes on yourself or whatever." 

 

One of the things I really like, we talked with the [00:44:29 Double Dams?]. [00:44:29] They're just such a great couple, and they talk about this idea. They get down at the end of the week or multiple times to go, Hey, was this team Sarah or team-

 

Jenni Graebe: Steve. 

 

Chris Graebe: Steve. You know, this is more team Steve this week, or last week was more team Sarah, but is it team us? Are we kind of walking in tandem together? I think as long as there's that trust there that everyone can go, well, no. I mean, the last year has been about team Steve. You know? That's when you get in a tough spot. 

 

So if you can have that place and kind of find those boundaries, then you can say, Hey, what can I do in this moment to change our circumstances and our situation? They may respond a certain way, but if you come with a posture of servanthood knowing that, you know, if we posture ourselves like Christ and we serve that, you know, that's what we're supposed to be doing. We may not always love the reception we get or the answer we get on the side, but you can do what you can to make sure your heart's in the right spot, not doing to get, but just doing because you said yes to this person. [00:45:30] You agreed to be their teammate, their partner, and walk alongside them no matter what's going on in life. 

 

Laura Dugger: And inevitably, there will be times when we don't get all of this right. So during those times, how do you two practice and model confession both with one another and with your children? 

 

Jenni Graebe: I think that's so important, you know, to be able to find that posture of humility and to admit when we're wrong. One of the things we talk about in the book is that change only begins with honesty. Right? So we can only change to the degree that we're willing to be honest about where we are, about where we've wronged our spouse, and about where we're hurting. 

 

What we don't want to communicate is that you just cherry-pick everything and everything's, you know, roses and always focus on the positive. There's a lot of negative emotions that can come up as we rub up against each other in life. But, you know, if we're able to be honest about where we've been hurt or find that way to apologize when we've been the one that's wronged our spouse. [00:46:35]  

 

I think it all comes down to just really being honest and still being kind and speaking life with our words. But we can do that and still be honest. I can say, hey, you know, when you said this, this really hurt me. And I love you, but how can we work on this? Or, you know, I noticed that that really did hurt you when I said this, and I'm sorry and I'm working on this. How can I help meet your needs more? So I think honesty is always a great place to start.

 

Chris Graebe: And I think you said also, for us, in our marriage and for our kids, I think, you know, we are not even close to perfect when it comes to parenting, but I think when we do have those mistakes and we, you know, are a little loud with a kid, and we're just frustrated and tired of the day, and they take the brunt, we always approach them and say, Hey, I'm just sorry. That probably hurt your feelings the way I said that or how all that went down. I wanna say I'm sorry and ask for your forgiveness." [00:47:29] 

 

We try not to let things sit around very long. That right there just gives it the opportunity for a lot of really ugly things to happen. The longer you sit on it, you know, the longer you don't try and fix it. Typically, you know, again, after 17 years of walking through a lot of good battles together in our life, in our marriage, hard seasons, great seasons, you start to go, Hey, they are really actually for me. So for us, the spats don't last real long. 

 

Laura Dugger: And the humility and to keep short accounts, those... you've given us a lot of practical handles to grab on to. One of the purposes of this podcast is to lead people to enjoy their own practical chats for intentional living. So what are some helpful questions we can use in conversation with our own spouse to get this type of conversation started and to move in a more intentional lifestyle direction? [00:48:29] 

 

Jenni Graebe: The whole back of the book is filled with questions that you can sit down with your spouse. We break it into three different sections where you can really cast a vision for your marriage together. So we ask a lot of questions to pull out that picture that you have, that you're carrying in your heart towards where you want to go as a couple. 

 

You know, when we get married, we each bring with us a specific vision of what we hope our life will look like together. A lot of times, you know, we don't even know what our spouse's picture of our future is, or we haven't had that conversation. Maybe we haven't asked, or maybe we've just gotten so busy that we haven't had the time to sit down and talk through it together. 

 

One of the things we talk about in the book is slowing down this idea of really stopping all the hectic craziness so that we can have these intentional conversations like you're talking about. But I think a great question to start with, like Chris said, is where are we in and out of rhythm? Where do we know? [00:49:27] If you ask any couple that, they will immediately know at least a few areas where they feel out of rhythm and where they feel in rhythm. So I think that's always a great place to start. 

 

Chris Graebe: And it's also really interesting to go... like, somebody goes, we're not out of rhythm there. Like, that's the best rhythm ever. You're like, no. Interesting. Okay. Someone says, no, I'm out of rhythm right here. The other one's going, you think we're out of rhythm there? Mmh. Okay. Well, help me understand. Why do you feel like we're out of rhythm? And it's not like a well, because you blah blah blah blah. Like, it gives you an opportunity to have this safe space to start and where you're kind of collectively, shoulder to shoulder looking at the thing in the center of the table going, huh, maybe we are out of rhythm there. How does that look like for you? Because I think we are, but, clearly, maybe I'm missing it. 

 

That's just the best first question to ask. And when you gain clarity there, then you can start to kinda chip away. Like, okay, well, there's seven things or a hundred things, whatever wherever you're at, that we feel like we're out of rhythm. We're gonna celebrate where we are in rhythm, and then let's just pick one or two to say, hey, let's start to work and practically put into place things we can do, even small things to get in rhythm in this area or this area, and then we can start working on the other ones as we go. [00:50:46] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, you're clearly such an intentional couple. When do you dedicate time to read with five kids and a podcast and a thriving marriage among other things? 

 

Jenni Graebe: Oh, Laura. Audible. Absolutely. For reading, Audible has saved our lives and kept us reading. I love to sit down with a book. Chris has always been an Audible guy. I love to sit down with a candle and quiet and a book. But in this season, there is not a lot of quiet. There's not a lot of uninterrupted time to be found. So Audible has absolutely helped us get those books in. 

 

Now I still love to find those moments when I can early in the morning or late at night to sit down with a book, but I've realized there will be seasons for that. 

 

Chris Graebe: Like this morning, like, I woke up at, I don't know, 05:30, and everybody else is asleep. But for Jenni, like, she gets to steal those moments at night. I'm super tired, and I'm asleep, and so she's gonna stay up and be the night owl. Those are those moments. [00:51:49] 

 

Jenni Graebe: I think your bigger question is, you know, how do you make space for what matters? I think for us, it's just we don't do it all. We can't do it all. And I think that you're able to say yes to the things that matter to you when you realize your own capacity and you realize, okay, if I say yes to everything, it will mean saying no to the things that matter most. 

 

And a lot of times the things that actually matter most are the ones that are not, vying for your attention all the time. They're the quietest things. They're saying yes to baking a batch of pretend cookies with your kids or jumping on the trampoline, you know, with your teenager or shooting those hoops with your son in the driveway. Those are the things that matter most. That's what we want to fill our life with. Right? But they're not the ones yelling for our attention all the time. 

 

So I think it just requires us looking at our life and really trying to be intentional with our yes and say yes to the things that we want to fill our life with and remembering that that means saying no to all the rest. [00:52:51] 

 

Laura Dugger: And if reading is a priority, I love that idea for Audible. Your book is certainly one I want to recommend. Where can people find and follow you online?

 

Jenni Graebe: You can go to therhythmofus.com to find everything. We are on socials, Jenni Graebe, Chris Graebe. Our name is really difficult and hard to spell. I'm sure you can spell it for them in your show notes, but it's G-R-A-E-B-E. B as in boy. I just have to spell it every day of my life. It's a good thing he's cute, Laura, because his last name is complicated. If you go to therhythmofus.com, you should be able to find everything. And the book is, wherever you like to buy your books. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Like you said, we will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:53:49] 

 

Jenni Graebe: I would say the top two that come to mind for me, the first one, is journaling. And by journaling, I mean prayer journaling. I've been a big journaler my whole life in some capacity or another. Before I go to sleep every night, I try and just write something even if it's just good night, Lord. Because I always end up writing more. But it's just the way that I process my days with Him. And so it's always directed to the Lord. It's not just writing down the events of my day, but it's actually laying them at his feet so that I can sleep.  Because I cannot go to sleep with all the things running around in my brain. 

 

So just doing that brain dump before the Lord at the end of the day has absolutely changed my life. And I can notice an actual difference in myself, in my heart, in my soul, and in my behavior if I'm not staying on top of this as a discipline. So I would say prayer journaling every night, just at least writing down one thing. [00:54:48] 

 

And then also walking through the trees absolutely has changed my life. I used to get my workouts in at the gym.  And that's fine. Chris still loves to do that. But for me, a shift happened when I realized I could run through the trails or go for a walk through the trees. Just something about being in nature, it just does something to my soul. I come back lighter. I can breathe better. I have a better perspective on the world. Just connecting with God in that way, I would say has absolutely changed my life. 

 

Chris Graebe: You know, one of the things for me is, you know, when I read Jesus doing miracles and He says, Hey, don't tell anybody, or you read scriptures that talk about the secret life, I think for me, the older I get and the longer I get in this thing, I wanna do things and that really nobody's ever gonna see publicly. You know? A lot of it carries like, okay. Who I am when no one's looking is really who I am. The text that I send to a friend that will never be posted on social media, you know, would just be like, Hey, I know you're going through something, or maybe they lost a job, and everyone else just kinda scatters. 

 

I kinda like to be that weirdo. It's like, Hey, man, I'm still thinking of you. How are you doing? It's like, why haven't you left like everybody else? [00:55:59] And so I don't know. I try as best I can to live this really awesome secret life where I'm serving people. I'm not really on social much. And so just trying to live every single day that it's like, okay. How can I make an impact where no one's gonna see? 

 

Because I think for the longest time, you know, whatever was driving me... you know, I had a pretty rough childhood. You know, the idea of going on MTV, was the wrong motives were driving me. So I think now as I get older and find a peace, and Jenni's been such a great gift to me about the idea of serving others and the way I live my life, and obviously, scriptures in Christ is going, how can I live a life that doesn't have to be super public? The parts of my life that doesn't... you know, you write a book, you do a podcast, you do videos, that part's gonna be public. 

 

But, you know, try and do those things that I'm not doing this for a post or for public acknowledgment, I'm just doing this because, one, it's the right thing to do, and it can serve somebody else. And so I don't know. I guess my savvy sauce is trying to do the things that no one sees that ultimately will bless other people and not just serve myself. [00:57:06] 

 

Laura Dugger: Those are both so good. You are such a warm and engaging couple. I've really appreciated this time together. I think that your rhythms are wise, and I know this chat's going to lead many to apply the knowledge and then benefit relationally from the truth and grace that you both shared. So thank you for making much of marriage, and thank you for being my guest today. 

 

Jenni Graebe: Absolutely. It was our honor. Thank you so much, Laura. 

 

Chris Graebe: Good times. Thanks. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:58:33] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:59:34] 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [01:00:36] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

162 Healing from Spouse‘s Sexual Addiction with Jennifer Roush

*Disclaimer* This episode is not intended for little ears.

 

Philippians 4:5 AMP "Let your gentle spirit [your graciousness, unselfishness, mercy, tolerance, and patience] be known to all people. The Lord is near."

 

* Transcription Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you share your story?
2. How did you process through your own journey of bitterness and eventually forgiveness?
3. What encouragement do you want to share with the spouse who is currently married to someone who deals with sexual addiction?

 

Jennifer Roush is the Executive Director of the SperaVita Institute. Her organization trains pregnancy centers around the nation and internationally, helping them reach their full potential and effectively serve women at highest risk for abortion. She has also been a leader in women’s ministry for over 18 years. Jennifer is the woman to talk to if you are feeling shame and don't see a way forward in any area of your life. Her disarming belief that there is "no pit so deep, that God is not deeper still" empowers people to see beyond their present circumstances and create strategy for the future. She has spoken at many different events and ministries including Focus on the Family and Breaking the Veil of Silence. Jennifer and her husband, Troy, have four beautiful daughters.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

My guest today is Jennifer Roush. She has walked through incredibly difficult circumstances, and she's going to share her story and how the Lord remained close to her and gently healed her through her painful process of discovering her husband's secret sexual addiction. 

 

Here's our chat. [00:01:18] 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jennifer. 

 

Jennifer Roush: Thank you so much for having me. Well, I love having a little bit of context for my guests, so will you first just give us a brief overview of where you're from and how you grew up?

 

Jennifer Roush: Sure. I grew up in central Nebraska. My father is a pastor, so I grew up in a Christian home. I have one younger sister, three years younger than me. I really had a great upbringing. You know, I grew up with a real childlike faith in God, just knowing that Jesus loved me, that He died on the cross not only to forgive me of my sins, but also He rose again so that I could be with Him in eternity and have a relationship with him now here on earth. So I had a great upbringing.

 

Laura Dugger: I remember hearing your marriage testimony probably about 15 years ago, and it's always stuck with me. Will you share that story with us now? [00:02:23] 

 

Jennifer Roush: Sure. So I grew up in a Christian home, and when I was in middle school, we moved to a new community. I was the new pastor's kid in town. And so in middle school and high school, you know, I began to backslide. I began to care so much about what other people thought of me and really looked to them to tell me who I was. 

 

But it didn't take long because of the foundation that I was raised with to become disillusioned, you know, with what I was seeing around me and with the things that my friends were doing. And so when I went to college, I actually rededicated my life to Christ. I got involved in campus ministry and really began to grow. 

 

I had a boyfriend back home at the time, and I began to share with him, you know, what God was doing in my life and how I was growing. As he listened to me, he made the decision to also pray to receive Jesus. [00:03:30] 

 

He would say now that at that time his motivation might have been a little bit mixed. He also didn't want to lose me. He has said, "I don't know if I was really pursuing God or you." But I took that as my green light to move ahead with the relationship. 

 

So we actually got married at the ripe old age of 19, feeling so grown up. But as I look back, I mean, we were so young. We moved to a new city and began to get plugged in. We joined a great church. I was really hungry to continue to grow in my faith. 

 

Every once in a while I would notice some sort of what seemed like a dark internal struggle going on with him. I would ask him about it, ask him if he was okay, and he would just say something like, "Oh, yeah, I was stressed out at work" or "Yeah, I'm fine." [00:04:36] I wanted to believe that he was okay, and so I did. 

 

After about two years of marriage, the Lord began to reveal what was going on. One day I went to get the mail and was just looking through our mail, and I noticed this bill from a real sort of generic-looking company. And so I thought, oh, I'll have to ask my husband what this is, and continued to sort mail. 

 

Then I heard the voice of the Lord say, no, no, open it up. So I went back to that envelope and I opened it up. And I still didn't know what it was because it was still real generic. And so I thought, "Okay, I'll ask him about it when he gets home." I heard the voice of the Lord again say, "No, call the company. You need to know what this is." [00:05:27] So I went into our apartment, I called the company, and I was devastated to find out that it was an adult phone line or a phone sex company. 

 

I confronted my husband when he got home. At first, he wanted to deny it but then admitted that he'd been struggling with pornography and struggling with making these phone calls. And I was mortified. I didn't understand. I didn't understand, you know, why would you want something like that when you have me? We'd been married two years. We were still kind of newlyweds. 

 

I didn't understand but came to understand that this hadn't been just an occasional thing. This hadn't been something that went on a few times. That this was an addiction. This was in the 90s, and the internet was still fairly new. [00:06:34] And this was something that wasn't talked about as much as it is now. But this was an addiction that had deep roots, that had gone actually... I eventually found out beyond magazines, beyond phone calls. But I was soon to find out that it had actually moved into infidelity. 

 

I didn't understand but came to understand later that it really didn't have a lot to do with me but that there was a void in his life that he was trying to fill with all of this stuff. And it was really a void that only God could fill. 

 

I was devastated. I wanted to wish it away. I wanted a quick fix. I wanted to slap a Band-Aid on it and move forward. I thought, "Maybe let's just get in the Bible. Let's talk to so and so. But you can't slap a Band-Aid on something, on a wound that is rotting from the inside out." And so we moved forward. [00:07:46] 

 

We went for a while trying to reach out for different forms of help. Things would seem to be okay for a while but then... this being exposed was really God's pursuit of my husband. The Lord loves us so much. I think He'll give us windows of time where if there is something going on with us that we're keeping in the darkness, I believe that He will give us a period of time to bring it into the light. But then if we don't, in His great love for us, he will allow it to be exposed. 

 

This happened over and over where we would be going along thinking things were getting better, but my husband was still not being honest. So, God, in his love for me and in his pursuit of my husband, would allow it to be exposed. [00:08:43] 

 

We were separated different times throughout our marriage. I was mortified to find out that at one point he had been ticketed for solicitation of prostitution. In the community where we lived, they actually published this in the paper. So any sort of mask that I wanted to wear around people or any sort of impression that I wanted to give that we had our acts together was kind of taken away. 

 

It was so beautiful because God really used that to deal with me in the areas of pride and humility, in areas where I also wanted to keep things in darkness and under the rug and not be transparent with people. I became so desperate during this period of time in my life that I began to cry out to God. [00:09:47] I began to say, "God, my entire life, people have told me that you're enough, that you're all that I need. And God, I know that in my head. God, I kind of know it in my heart. But God, I need to know from the very depths of my being that You are who You say You are, that You are enough. 

 

And so as hard as this season in my life was, it was beautiful because, you know, God says, draw near to me and I will draw near to you. I began to learn intimacy with Him. I began to learn what that really looked like. And I began to know Him in a deeper way. Yet, as I said, as hard as it was, there was a lot of beauty in that time as well, because He is so beautiful. [00:10:43] 

 

In a season of our life where we thought that things were... you know, I thought, I guess, that things were going better and that maybe this issue was behind us, we found out we were pregnant and we had our first daughter, McKenna, who's so beautiful.

 

I remember at night getting up in the middle of the night and rocking her. I really didn't know lullabies, but I would sing songs that I knew. So I would sing, you know, you are so beautiful to me. You are so beautiful to me. You're everything I hoped for. I remember one night being up in her room, just rocking her and then just hearing the Lord sing over me, "Jennifer, you're so beautiful to me." He's so good in the middle of our painful circumstances. 

 

We went on for years and years. [00:11:44] I didn't believe in divorce. I knew that that was not God's ultimate plan for marriage. And so I went for years just praying and hoping and believing and going through periods of time where I would think, Okay, this is getting better, and they might seem to be for a while, but then God would continue to bring things into the light in my husband's life when he wasn't being transparent. 

 

And it finally got to the point where I saw somebody who is deeply loved by God with the destiny in God that I agree with. So buy into the lies of the enemy and therefore stay in bondage to them that it cost us our marriage. I finally realized, you know, our home has to be safe and healthy. And he wasn't being transparent. And I've got children. So we separated and our marriage eventually ended in divorce. 

 

It wasn't what I had hoped for. It wasn't what I dreamed of on my wedding day but it happened. I walked my children through the pain of that and then began to live as a single mom for a period of time. [00:13:08] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing so transparently what happened. I'm wondering if someone is in the midst of this right now. And it's just so helpful to hear your story shared with them. I do have a few follow-up questions when we go back. How long was it before either you or your husband said this out loud to another person? Was it when it was published in the newspaper?

 

Jennifer Roush: The initial struggles before that happened, it was actually pretty quick with a few people. We did talk to our pastor right away. We did see a counselor pretty early on. I would say I didn't fully understand the fullness of what was happening when we began to talk about it. It was probably initially more me just wanting, you know, this to go away and wanting it fixed. [00:14:13] But we did have people in our life that we did talk to fairly early on. And then obviously when it was made public, everybody knew at that point.

 

Laura Dugger: And as you were seeking counsel from others, who was the first one to be able to identify and share, this is an addiction?

 

Jennifer Roush: I think it was our first counselor. I think he had a deeper understanding of what was going on pretty quickly because of his line of work. But I didn't. It was hard for me to believe that my husband was an addict. You know, because pornography, it is like a drug addiction, but the signs are different. They don't have marks on their arms or they don't pass out or things that are real obvious. It's a little more insidious than that. And so it took me a while to get my mind around it.

 

Laura Dugger: And what were a few of those signs that God really used to bring some of this into the light? [00:15:17] 

 

Jennifer Roush: After walking through this for a while, I could begin to identify, you know, when something was going on. I would say, first of all, lack of intimacy between the two of us. When he would begin to push me away, lack of concentration. I think he had a hard time focusing when he was really using a lot. Those were some telltale signs. Money issues, because a lot of this does cost money. And so when suddenly money was missing, that was also a sign.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that's really helpful. And as painful as it is to recall, I think that's really practical for someone who's having these same questions. And I just appreciate how you were so in tune walking with the Holy Spirit that you knew when God was nudging you to just go a little bit further, ask another question.

 

Jennifer Roush: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. 

 

While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: How did you process through your own journey of bitterness and eventually forgiveness?

 

Jennifer Roush: There were so many different things that God used. As I grew in intimacy with God, He began to deal with things in my life as well. When we look to Him, we become like Him, and things that aren't like Him have to go.

 

First of all, God really began to deal with control issues in my life. He began to show me how much I wanted control of things, and really, I was in a situation that was out of my control. He began to deal with my heart and teach me just to trust Him. 

 

He began to deal with the issue of forgiveness. I knew that He called us to forgive. I knew that if I held on to unforgiveness, that it would only hurt me, but man, I wrestled with that. I wrestled with it. [00:18:39] 

 

I remember my husband in a season where he seemed to be doing better, he was a musician, and so he was with a worship team from our church. And one night, they had gone into a prison to do some ministry, and he was playing drums. 

 

While he was there, two prostitutes that he had known apparently were incarcerated. He came home and told me about it, and it was tough. It was tough because the Lord began to show me how not only was I dealing with unforgiveness for my husband, but that I hadn't even really considered the other side of the story, and was I willing to forgive these women. 

 

While they were there ministering, I was told that they had actually accepted the Lord. I wasn't happy about it. I was thinking in my mind, I don't want to go to heaven with them. [00:19:42] One night, a couple weeks after that, we were downtown, we had some other friends who were having a service in an inner city church, and the Lord was continuing to deal with my heart regarding these women. 

 

So finally, I was just praying, and I said, "God, I know that you've called me to forgive. I know that you died on the cross for all of us. But God, these women slept with my husband." And I heard the Lord, in His very non-condemning way, say back to me, "And Jennifer, your sins killed my son." And it wasn't condemning. He was just reminding me of the love and the mercy that I had received. 

 

You know, you always hear people say that if you were the only person in the world, that Christ would have died for you. [00:20:47] But something else that we need to consider is that if you were the only person in the world, He still would have had to die. So that was sort of the beginning, I think, of Him healing my heart and growing me in forgiveness. 

 

He also began to deal with my pride. I had a friend one time say, "Jennifer, your marriage reminds me of Hosea and Gomer. And you know how Hosea was the faithful spouse, and Gomer was the prostitute that kept cheating and coming back and cheating and coming back." I remember kind of thinking, yeah, like I see what you're saying. Until one day the Lord told me, He said, "Jennifer, you're not Hosea. I'm Hosea. I'm the faithful one. You are also unfaithful to me. You've also been unfaithful."

 

So that's kind of how the Lord stepped me through a lot of those things. You know, it really comes out of that intimate relationship with Him and just knowing Him and knowing His heart. [00:21:52] And then in the process, allowing Him to strip away the things that would hold us captive. 

 

My pastor would always say that "don't let sin against you cause sin in you". And I think that's really key.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. The magnitude of all of that is so powerful, just especially what the Lord said about what all of us have done to His Son. But your intimacy with the Lord, I'm hearing this obedience and that you're sensitive to Him and you're learning from your pastor. What else did intimacy with the Lord look like? Were there certain spiritual practices that you had in place?

 

Jennifer Roush: Yeah, that's a great question. Really, yes, I would spend time in His Word. That's key, obviously, to grow in our understanding and our knowledge of who He is. [00:22:52] I would spend a lot of time in prayer as well, just getting in His presence, praying, listening for His voice. I'd spend time in worship and even just on my own, just playing songs that spoke to my heart. 

 

And then also being connected to the body of Christ is incredibly important because we refine one another because God uses other people oftentimes to reflect His heart. So all of those things are important. I would say more than anything, it was getting alone with Him and opening myself up and just letting Him have access to any place He wanted to go.

 

Laura Dugger: It just makes me think of the song we so often sing at church, just, I surrender all. It sounds like you got before Him in solitude and surrendered everything and He's worked in miraculous ways. But this has been a long journey. [00:23:55] 

 

An added layer to this story is having young daughters, like you mentioned. So as this process went on, how did you share with your then 7- and 10-year-old daughters about your husband's sex addiction and what was their response?

 

Jennifer Roush: I was very aware, I think, and protective of their hearts. And because I knew of my own struggles with unforgiveness and control and pride and bitterness and all of that, I really prayed and just sought wisdom on how to walk them through something so difficult. 

 

So, first and foremost, when I told them that we were getting a divorce, it's hard at 7 and 10 to, first of all, talk about the issues at hand, to talk about pornography. I mean, they were pretty innocent. But the first thing that I did was I told them in the presence of their children's pastor, who they loved, and my parents. I thought it was really important for them to feel surrounded by people that loved them. [00:25:07] 

 

So it wasn't just mom saying this and maybe dad saying something else, but they had a community around them. They had godly, loving men who were coming alongside them. What we initially told them, because they really didn't understand sex or that sort of thing at those ages, was that there are promises that you make when you get married, and our pastor talked to them about how dad loves you and God loves him. He didn't keep those promises. That was the best way that we could explain it initially. 

 

As the girls got a little older, God began to just show me, you know, when the appropriate time was to give them more information. And it wasn't too long after that. My oldest was in middle school. And I could just begin to tell that the weight of not knowing more was getting a lot for her. [00:26:09] And you really have to be careful because kids in their own minds can begin to imagine things that aren't true and even blame themselves. 

 

So one day I just came home from work early and I really felt like, Okay, we've got to talk in more depth now. She walked home from school, came in the house, and I said, "Honey, I need to talk to you more about what happened between your dad and I." And it was hard. She knew that it would be difficult. 

 

But we went in her room and... I didn't quite know how to start. I said, "Do you know what pornography is?" And she said no, and I breathed a sigh of relief. Then I said, "Well, I said, do you know what sex is?" And she's like, "Well, kind of, you know, like we've talked a little bit about it and they talked about it a little bit at school." [00:27:12] 

 

So I said, "Okay," I said, "Pornography are images that can be on the computer, magazines, different places. They're images that are really, really immodest and inappropriate." And we talked about how people can become addicted to that like a drug. All of a sudden, she looked at me and she goes, "Mom, you mean like in the movie Fireproof?" I had to think back to that movie. I thought, "Oh, yeah, like in the movie Fireproof." And so I was glad she had a point of reference.

 

And then we did talk a little bit about the infidelity as well. I couched it in love, in trying to express God's heart for her dad. But I also felt like it was important for her in those young teenage years to really understand that you don't get divorced over something minor or... not that any of that was minor, but that marriage is so valuable and so worth fighting for. [00:28:24] And so I didn't want to minimize anything either. 

 

So we talked about it. At first, she wanted to comfort me, which I had already been through quite a bit of healing and it was real sweet. But then she started to cry and she said, "Mom, I just feel like a bunch of chains just came off of me." And I was so thankful that she said that because it's vulnerable to talk to your kids about these things. And you can think as a parent, "Is this the right time? Am I saying this the right way?" But I think her not knowing was holding her in more bondage and she needed to know the truth. So it was a really precious time.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Looking back then, what parenting decisions would you say you're grateful you made?

 

Jennifer Roush: I would say just being real conscientious about pursuing the girl's heart, just like God pursues our hearts. [00:29:27] And so just really checking in with them, not wanting to sweep anything under the rug, processing with them forgiveness, taking them through prayers of forgiveness and all of that. 

 

I think continuing to stay real connected to the body of Christ and providing opportunity for godly men to be in their life and just speaking so much about how men are a blessing. I really didn't want any bitter roots springing up, you know. I think also talking to them about, you've been through some things with your dad, but you have a good Father. You have a good, perfect, heavenly Father, and He is here for you to meet your needs. 

 

And this was not his heart for you to walk through this, but He works all things for good. And so He's going to use this in your life. You're going to have so many other kids that go through the pain of divorce, and you're going to be able to come alongside them in understanding. [00:30:42] You're going to be able to encourage them because it's a path that you've walked in. 

 

I think it was really important for them to understand how God can take our painful things and use them for good in our life. And it was really cool because, I don't know, a year or two after our divorce, there was a family in our church with six kids, and unfortunately, their parents were walking through divorce. And so the kids were up in Sunday school, and our children's pastor that day, they were praying for these kids, and he had my daughter come up and pray for them. And I just loved that because it was just a tangible example of what we had been talking about.

 

It's hard. I mean, there's no way around it. It's hard to walk your kids through something like this, but I think you just keep pointing them to God and get a good community around them, and that's the best that you can do. [00:31:46] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thanks to our friend Joy, thesavvysauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1st titled Articles. I hope you check out these new savvy snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy!

 

Jennifer, it sounds like community is so important to you, and wisely so, that you also instill that in your daughters. So as you reflect on your healing process, what was the most helpful and most harmful thing from your community during that time?

 

Jennifer Roush: I think the most helpful thing was just having friends around me that would encourage me, that would pray with me, that would remind me of who I am in Christ, regardless of what was going on around me. [00:32:54] Friends that would just show up. I think the hardest thing... sometimes you might know somebody going through something really difficult, maybe like what I went through, and it can feel awkward. It can feel like, I don't know what to say. I don't know what they need. 

 

And so sometimes we can find ourselves wanting maybe to distance ourselves a little bit, not because we don't care, but just because we're not sure what to do or what to say. But when I experienced that, it could feel really isolating and really discouraging. 

 

I think the best thing that you can do, even if you don't know exactly what to do or say, is just to be there. Just to say, I'm praying for you. I'm so thankful for the friends that would have us over for dinner. Me, a single mom with two little kids, but they would still just bring us into their home and allow my girls to be part of that. [00:34:00] And so that was just wonderful. 

 

So I think just staying connected. I remember when our divorce was final, I had a friend hear about it and she didn't really know what to say, but she just marched straight over to my house, walked through the back kitchen door, and just into my kitchen and just hugged me. And it's just powerful. So, yeah, sometimes when I talk about those things, I feel the emotions of that time.

 

So that's what I would say is just be there, just show up, just give a word of encouragement. And don't worry if you don't know the perfect thing to say or do, just be there.

 

Laura Dugger: And as you're sharing, I'm experiencing some emotion as well. And I think what it is, stories like your friend coming in, that was an act that was prompted in love. [00:35:00] And I think that's always so compelling because it does reflect Christ's love for us.

 

Do you have any encouragement that you would like to share with a spouse who is currently married to someone who is in the midst of dealing with a sexual addiction?

 

Jennifer Roush: The first thing that I want to say is I just want to speak hope to them. First and foremost, your hope is in Christ and He has good plans for your life, regardless of the current situation around you. But part of me being on this journey is that I have so many relationships with different couples that have also been through this struggle. And I've seen so many come out on the other side, healed and whole. So just know that God is for you, that He is for your spouse. 

 

I always say that in Christ, there is so much hope and there is so much freedom to choose. [00:36:00] But I want to tell you that just because you're in this battle, it doesn't mean that your marriage is going to end in divorce. You just keep turning to Him, keep trusting Him. He is good and His goodness will be made manifest in your life.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a good word. Now, will you catch us up on the current pages of your story? 

 

Jennifer Roush: Sure. Yes. So I was a single mom for about five years, and in the summer of 2013, I met my now husband, Troy. He was living about an hour north of us and we met. He had been through, honestly, some similar pain in his previous marriage that I had been through. So we connected and we got married in May of 2014. And he's a godly man. [00:37:05] 

 

It took me a while. It took me some years of healing. And then even coming to the realization that, yeah, I would, I would like to probably be married again. He has two girls. We both came to the marriage with two girls and have walked through some of the challenges of blended families. But I'll tell you, he is such a loving stepdad to my two daughters and they love him. It's been incredibly healing for our family. So we've just really been in a season of God making things new.

 

In 2012, I began to work in the pro-life world. I'm a nurse. That is what I have my degree in. I actually got a job managing a network of pro-life clinics. It was amazing because every day I was seeing girls with an unplanned pregnancy or patients that were coming in who needed testing for STDs. [00:38:17] And it was a place where not only could I give them the medical treatment that they needed, but also have opportunity to share my faith and to share the gospel.

 

It's amazing how God works because for so long, you know, that whole area of sexuality was just so broken in my life. There was so much sexual brokenness. But as God healed me... you know, the Bible says he has taken captivity captive. And so those things that the enemy wants to use to hold us captive, the Lord actually comes in, when we allow Him into our lives, and takes those things and actually uses them for His kingdom.

 

So here I was, this person who had walked through all of this sexual brokenness. And now every single day I was sitting with these young adults who were walking through sexual brokenness and the Lord was allowing me to minister to them. [00:39:19] That was an amazing season.

 

Now He's kind of taken it to the next place. And so currently I am the executive director of the Speravita Institute. We are an organization that trains clinics and centers like the one I worked in around the country and even internationally to just multiply this work. God's just so good. I mean, he works all things for good in our lives.

 

Laura Dugger: Amen to that. I just love hearing how God is bringing your story full circle, even in the work that you're doing today. So thank you for sharing.

 

Jennifer Roush: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Jennifer, you may already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Jennifer Roush: I would just say pursue knowing God. [00:40:20] That is an eternal pursuit. There is always more to know. I mean, we will spend eternity with God, I think, just continuing to reveal new aspects of who He is to us. So as we know Him, we also then come to know who we are, right? 

 

Once we know who He is, we're better able to see who He made us to be and better able then to look at others through His lens and walk in who He called us to be and fulfill the purpose in our life. That's kind of the drumbeat, I guess, of my life, is just to go deeper in knowing my Father.

 

Laura Dugger: And in that pursuit of knowing your father, it is so apparent how you're becoming more like Christ. And I just experience Christ through you. It reminds me this morning, I was reading in Philippians 4, and specifically in verse 5, when it says, "Let your gentle spirit be known to all people." The Amplified version says that gentle spirit is your graciousness, unselfishness, mercy, tolerance, and patience. [00:41:41] 

 

I definitely experienced all of those through you today. Not only does it say, let your gentle spirit be known to all people, but the verse concludes with this: the Lord is near. So Jennifer, thank you for living that out. And thank you so much for sharing your story with us and being my guest today. It was an honor to host you.

 

Jennifer Roush: Thank you. Yes, it was an honor to be your guest and I really enjoyed it.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:42:45] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:43:47] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:44:49] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

161 God Redeems with Hettie Brittz

*DISCLAIMER: There is some thematic material discussed in this episode. Please do not listen in the presence of young ears.

 

161. God Redeems with Hettie Brittz

 

"So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. Walk in obedience to all that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess." Deuteronomy 5:32-33 (NIV)

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How did your upbringing and majority of life spent in South Africa influence your transition into motherhood?

2. Will you give us illustrations of moms who parent very differently, but God has clearly equipped them for their exact role as mother to their unique children?

3. How did this play out for you in a profound way we can all learn from?

 

Hettie Brittz was born and raised in South Africa but now  lives in East Tennessee with her husband of 29 years, Louis. They have a newly-wed, a college student and a teen. Hettie's motto is "Know your design; live your purpose." She helps individuals, couples, families and teams discover their brilliant God-given design so they can live and work with impact and fulfilment. She has trained facilitators around the world to use her Evergreen Parenting curriculum and her Tall Trees Leadership model to impact their communities in turn. She has collaborated on broadcasts, publications and conferences by Focus on the Family, Family Life, David C Cook, The Barna Foundation, OneHope and other international ministries. She is at her happiest on a mountain, at her most content on her porch with her Bible, strong coffee, and a sunrise, at her most creative in the camping chair in her backyard woods, at her best in a room full of people who are eager to grow, and most grateful when her husband and all her kids are home and happy. 

 

linktr.ee/hettiebrittz

Contact Hettie Brittz on Facebook

Her Website

unNatural Mom: Why You Are the Perfect Mom for Your Kids

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Temperaments:

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part 1 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part 2 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

 

Temperaments and Power of Words in Parenting with Kathleen Edelman

 

Four Personality Types with Dale Wilsher

 

Applying Personality Training to Parenting with Dale Wilsher

 

Parenting All Temperaments with Jenny Boyett

 

Temperaments and Power of Words in Parenting with Kathleen Edelman

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”