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Monday Jan 11, 2021
Monday Jan 11, 2021
127. Generational Differences with Haydn Shaw
Ephesians 3:21 NASB “to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.”
Haydn Shaw has researched and helped clients regarding generational differences for over twenty years. He is the author Sticking Points: How to Get 5 Generations Working Together in the 12 Places They Come Apart and Franklin Covey's bestselling workshops Leading Across Generations and Working Across Generations. He also writes on generations and leadership for the Huffington Post.
Hailed as a "leadership guru" by the Washington Post, Haydn speaks and consults in excess of 160 days each year to clients who consistently invite him back.
Haydn blogs about generations and other leadership topics at mygenerationalcoach.com.
Haydn Shaw travels from Chicago, where he lives in a multigenerational household with his family.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Haydn Shaw:
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Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jan 04, 2021
Monday Jan 04, 2021
126. Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons
Proverbs 31:11 (AMP) “The heart of her husband trusts in her [with secure confidence], And he will have no lack of gain.”
Gabe Lyons is the founder of Q Ideas, a media company that educates and mobilizes Christians to advance the common good in society. Gabe is the co-author of Good Faith: Being a Christian When Society Thinks You’re Irrelevant and Extreme, author of The Next Christians and co-author of UnChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity and Why It Matters. In addition, he co-hosts Rhythms For Life podcast with his wife, bestselling author, Rebekah Lyons.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Rhythms of Renewal: Trading Stress and Anxiety for a Life of Peace and Purpose
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dwell App (20% off annual or lifetime subscription by signing up here!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Dec 14, 2020
Monday Dec 14, 2020
125. Cultivate What Matters in 2021 with Emily Thomas
Luke 12:48b (NIV) “From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
Emily Thomas is the Chief of Staff at Cultivate What Matters, the home of the PowerSheets® Goal Planner and all things intentional living. With over 11 years at Cultivate, Emily loves helping women uncover what matters, set good goals, and live them out with joy. Her free time is spent with her high-school-sweetheart husband and two young kiddos, going on everyday adventures, and writing her personal blog, Em for Marvelous.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Recommended Resources for Goal Setting and Intentional Living:
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Dec 07, 2020
Monday Dec 07, 2020
124. Financially Stress-Free at Christmas with Hope Ware
"In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” -Acts 20:35
Hope Ware is a writer and public speaker. She blogs at underthemedian.com, dispensing tips and strategies for cutting expenses, raising children on a shoestring budget, and (most importantly) living with a spirit of joy and abundance. Hope believes that telling our stories of God's provision is one of the most powerful ways to pass faith and financial principles to the next generation.
Hope worked in Christian radio, writing and producing programs and commercials. As a private freelancer, she has provided vocal talent for a wide variety of projects, including voiceovers for prestigious companies like Pioneer Hybrid International and the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. She has written guest posts for Money Saving Mom (Crystal Paine), and Change Your Finances.
She is a frequent and popular speaker at the APACHE Homeschooling convention, held yearly in Peoria, enjoys teaching in the high school department at Peoria Cooperative Academy, and is a second soprano and featured soloist for the highly acclaimed Heritage Ensemble. She has a degree in radio and television broadcasting.
Connect with Hope on Instagram, Facebook, and You Tube @underthemedian
FREE copy of Hope’s Ebook for setting a Christmas budget that actually works!
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Nov 30, 2020
Monday Nov 30, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is not intended for anyone under 18 years of age.
123. Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Crystal Renaud Day, MAPC is a pastoral counselor, certified coach, author, and speaker with over a decade of experience working with women, couples, and teen girls. She holds a Master of Arts in Pastoral Counseling: Life Coaching from Liberty University and numerous certifications in counseling and coaching specialties from the American Association of Christian Counselors. Crystal owns and operates Living on Purpose Coaching & Pastoral Counseling and is the founding director of SheRecovery.com (formerly Dirty Girls Ministries), an online ministry helping women overcome porn and sexual addiction. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, ABC News, CNN, Christianity Today, The 700 Club, and more. Her books include Dirty Girls Come Clean, 90 Days to Wholeness, and Dating Done Right.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
God’s Design for Sex Series by Stan and Brenna Jones
Sample of Books by Crystal Renaud Day:
Pornography Addiction Support for Women
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dwell App (20% off annual or lifetime subscription by signing up here!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Nov 23, 2020
Monday Nov 23, 2020
122. Incredible Story of Overcoming with Rob Mitchell
Romans 8:28 (NIV) “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."
Rob Mitchell was abandoned at age 3. Little Robby was stuffed in an orphanage where he lived the next 14 years. At the age of 17, he was offered a one-way bus ticket to wherever he wanted to go and wished “Good Luck, Kid.”
Rob has been married faithfully since 1980 to Susan and together they have raised two neat kids. In sales since 1978, Rob has built a successful sales business that earned him the 2002 recognition as one of America’s top Investment Consultants.
Rob is a dynamic speaker who speaks from the heart with experience offering practical solutions that touch and encourage appreciative audiences.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Plan to Eat (FREE 60 day trial when you sign up here)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Nov 16, 2020
Monday Nov 16, 2020
121. Motherhood on Purpose with Ruth Schwenk
**Transcription Below**
1 Samuel 17: 39+40 (AMP) “Then David fastened his sword over his armor and tried to walk, [but he could not,] because he was not used to them. And David said to Saul, “I cannot go with these, because I am not used to them.” So David took them off. Then he took his [shepherd’s] staff in his hand and chose for himself five smooth stones out of the stream bed, and put them in his shepherd’s bag which he had, that is, in his shepherd’s pouch. With his sling in his hand, he approached the Philistine.”
Ruth Schwenk is co-founder of The Better Life Ministry, co-host of the Rootlike Faith podcast, and co-author with her husband, Pat, of In A Boat in the Middle of a Lake: Trusting the God Who Meets Us in Our Storm. A graduate of Moody Bible Institute, Ruth is also the author of The Better Mom book and Devotional, Pressing Pause, and Faith Forward Family Devotional. Ruth is a Michigan football superfan, a self-proclaimed “foodie,” and lover of all things HGTV. But her greatest joy is her family. She is a blessed wife to her Pastor/Author husband, Patrick, and mom to four beautiful children, and she eagerly awaits meeting her five others, lost through miscarriage, in heaven one day.
Connect with Ruth on Instagram or Facebook
Ruth Schwenk’s Free resources:
Faith Forward Family Map (includes Family Mission Statement)
Yearly Personal Inventory for Moms
Scriptures for Hope During Hard Times
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Resources Authored and Co-Authored by Ruth Schwenk:
In the Boat in the Middle of a Lake
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian School
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Ruth Schwenk is a life-giving person to spend time with. She is a talented author and speaker, and we're going to cover various topics she has studied, applied, and can now pass along to each of us as encouragement at this exact point of our parenting journey. You will end this conversation with clear next steps to take to confidently live joyfully with intentionality.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ruth.
Ruth Schwenk: Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: Will you just begin by sharing more of your story? [00:01:19]
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. So where do I start? My husband and I have been married for 22 years, which seems impossible and makes me sound old. But I don't know, I don't feel old. But we've been married for 22 years and have been in full-time church ministry — my husband's a pastor — for that entire time.
We have four kids. Our oldest is 18, we have a 16-year-old, a 13-year-old, and an 11-year-old. Sometimes I say their age is wrong, just so you know. We all struggle with that. We have four kids.
Let's see. About 10 years ago, I was really feeling called into mom ministry and I wasn't sure how that looked, and I really prayed about it for quite a while. About that time, blogs were kind of getting popular.
After praying about it for a while, I felt like I was supposed to start an online ministry for moms. [00:02:19] So I started, about 10 years ago, thebettermom.com. It is still a place for moms of all different ages and in different stages to come together to learn and grow and to become better by becoming more like Jesus. We have about 30 contributors. I gathered all different women to write for the site.
That's kind of where my online journey began. It was pretty crazy. I had no idea what I was doing, but I was just following what I felt like God had put on my heart and called me to do.
Through that, all sorts of things opened up. I now have written, I don't even know, 8 to 10 books. We have a ministry also for families now called forthefamily.org. Our overall ministry is called thebetterlifeministry.com.
We have a podcast. We have all sorts of stuff now that all just kind of bloomed out of that little space where I felt like God was calling me 10 years ago. [00:03:22] It's been a pretty incredible journey.
We still are in local church ministry. I feel like that's our first calling. We absolutely love being a part of online ministry as well and just the opportunity to reach people all over the world.
Laura Dugger: From your story, it's apparent that you have a lot of roles to manage and you're managing them well. How have you and Patrick found a rhythm that works even in the midst of busyness?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I first want to say it's never perfect. I feel like there's an ebb and flow to this. You're always kind of reevaluating and where do we need to make some changes? What are we doing well at? First of all, Pat and I, we're a really good team. We work really well together.
There's areas that I'm strong in and there's areas that he's strong in. We kind of makeup for that, I think, in one another. He loves to write, so that's always been a love of his. [00:04:27] That definitely has helped in our online ministry because there are books that we have written together.
But then, of course, step away from just online ministry and local church ministry, we have to start here in the home with our family. I think you're right. There's so much to manage. There's so many pieces.
Honestly, it's only gotten harder as the kids have gotten older because they become their own person and they have their own things to do. It's not so much that I can put them down for a nap and do my thing. Saying all of that, every season has looked different for us.
I would encourage the listener to be okay with that. Different seasons bring different rhythms and things may have to look differently. It never looks perfect.
I think one thing that Pat and I have done over the years that has really helped, and we haven't done this perfectly either, but our expectations, we've tried to communicate those to one another. [00:05:28] I think we take for granted how instead of me thinking, Oh, I wish you would be doing this, or I wish this would be really helpful if we would... We can so internalize those thoughts and those things.
But there's such a change when I just ask for help and I say, "Hey, could you do this?" Because then all of a sudden, I'm not having these thoughts like, "Oh, I wish you would." Also, because I think that really helps us keep a rhythm in the midst of busyness.
Another thing I would say that has been really huge for us over the years, it's just really making sure that as a family in our home, we know what our values are. We know what to say no to, what to say yes to, because we've taken the time to sit down and map out what's important to us, what we're willing to sacrifice our time for.
Those are just some things I think that we've done over the years that have really helped us manage well in the midst of busyness. Again, I don't want to make this sound perfect, because it isn't. [00:06:31] You're constantly reevaluating. There's going to be times that you're busy, and that's okay. I don't want to be so strict and legalistic about it that there's not room for some of that ebb and flow like I was talking about.
Laura Dugger: I hear you saying that with you and Patrick and your marriage, you keep it real-time with your communication or expectations, but then also you knew your values, and your family knew their values. Could you give an example right now when they're 11 to 18, what does a decision look like for you that you all are willing to sacrifice because of a certain value?
Ruth Schwenk: One of our values is eating dinner together. That doesn't mean that every single night of the week we're able to do that, but we want to do that as often as possible. This is something that years ago, when they were really little, that we sat down and said.
If one of the kids has an activity like basketball, and their practice is every night of the week at dinnertime, and it's going to go on for nine months of the year, and they come to us and say, "This is what I really want to do," we probably are going to try to figure out something else. [00:07:46] That's probably not going to work because that would totally go against one thing that's very important to us. We'd never be together for dinner. I guess that's an example, like a real-life example.
Again, there's seasons. So maybe then we find something that's a little bit shorter of a season. Maybe practices are a little bit later or a little bit earlier, or maybe they are at dinnertime, but they're only like two nights a week. You know, every family is different here.
But that's an example of how we would take a value of ours and apply it to an opportunity or something that we wanted to be a part of. I will say people can tend to then just pull back so much. So there is a balance here. We are to be servants. We are to serve Christ. We are to serve in our local church. There's things like that. Of course, it's not at the expense of our family, but we do need a balance there, that there are things like that that we will give our lives to that are important to us. [00:08:46]
Laura Dugger: That sounds like a both-and rather than an either-or. That always sounds like wisdom. You are obviously a gifted writer, as revealed by your popular blog and many books. We won't have time to cover all the topics that you've studied and written about, but I do want to explore a few.
In your recent book, The Better Mom, you note that Jesus calls us to live not a weary life, but a worthy life. Will you teach us more about that idea of finding freedom and walking confidently in our purpose?
Ruth Schwenk: Wow. There's so much we could talk about with this, but I think the tendency is to be overwhelmed by our circumstances and maybe even the desires and callings of our heart in our life and feel stuck there without moving forward. I don't know about you, but that makes me weary. [00:09:46]
When I know I'm not walking confidently into the purpose that God has called me, it's a burden. Because when we've been called to something, that's what God has for us that will make us come alive.
I guess when you bring up that question, that's immediately what comes to my mind. We can walk confidently in our purpose. For instance, ten years ago, when I really felt God impressing upon my heart to start this mom ministry, my kids were little.
One of the places that came from was because I was at home alone. I felt like I can't be the only one that feels like this. I was just trying to get through the day, I felt like. I felt like I wanted a place where moms could come together that felt like that.
For me, I felt that calling. Now, I knew in that season that there was going to be things that I probably couldn't do because of where I was at. I had young kids. But there was still something that God was calling me to, and I followed His call. [00:10:47]
As moms, I will be the first to say that we have such a high calling as a mom. We have a mission. God has called us to raise kids who will be a light to the world. Who we are at home is who we really are. I'll be the first to say that. But I don't think that that is our identity. Our identity and our worth is in being a child of Christ.
Just because I'm called to be a mom doesn't mean I'm not called to be something else as well. Don't be afraid of that. But again, it's going to look different in different seasons.
I didn't really travel very much and speak those first few years because my kids were so little. And I had to have boundaries. Even though I was following God's call, there were things I just couldn't do. My first calling was at home with my family.
Laura Dugger: I just want to lean into this a little bit. Was it at all a wrestle or struggle for you to know that you are called to this beautiful role of being a mother and also, that was not your only calling? [00:11:53] Because I'm thinking of the woman listening who maybe has something stirring in her heart, or she has something that she does in addition to motherhood. As a believer, maybe she's gotten some mixed messages of whether that's okay or not. How would you respond to her?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I would say I don't know if it's my personality. I don't know. I've always had something else. It's made me a better mom, to be honest with you. I feel like when I am walking confidently into the calling where I feel like God is calling me, I feel like for my kids to watch their mother be called by God to walk out what He has for me has a great impact on them.
We've always involved them in our ministry and things we've done, and they're always there with us. They're always a part of all of that. We involve them in everything. And I think that we take for granted the impact it can have on our kids to actually see their mom live out a calling that God has placed on their life. [00:12:59]
Now, I'm not talking about something where you are completely absent. It can become unhealthy, right, like anything. And so I think we have to be careful. There's different seasons.
When I was called into mom ministry and all of this online stuff opened up and I could have been speaking all the time. For my family, that would have been very detrimental because they needed me here. Honestly, I needed to be here as well. I don't think I could have managed all of that.
So I think it's different for everybody. I think every season is different. But I just keep coming back to that our identity is in Christ, and He has called us to serve Him. For all of us, that will be in different ways. The areas that God has called me, I have followed in. And I think that that has awakened things in me, it has stirred gifts in me, and it has made me come alive in ways that have really spilled out into my family as well. [00:14:01]
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. Because I think that you're just modeling how we can walk in the freedom of God, and even by doing so, that just naturally can train or teach our children to do the same.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: This sponsor is particularly special to our editor Natalie, because this is the school where her husband teaches and her children attend.
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In a book authored by you and your husband, entitled For Better or For Kids, you encourage others to build a God-centered marriage instead of a child-centered or me-centered marriage. So how can we actually do that? [00:16:02]
Ruth Schwenk: When we talk about that in the book For Better or For Kids, we're talking about the tendency to build our whole life around our kids and what they're doing versus first and foremost our marriage is the first priority. Some of the things that we notice that might be warning signs, I guess, of it becoming more of a child-centered or me-centered marriage would be, are you too busy as a family because of all the kids' activities? You do everything at home, the kids don't. So what I mean by that is chores. And everything at home you're just trying to keep it all together and they're not doing anything.
Maybe you feel alone in your marriage. You don't have time for a date night ever. Things like that would be warning signs that something probably isn't right.
I think that how we build a God-centered marriage, well, first of all is the communication piece. That's very important.[00:17:03] And it's just really about serving one another selflessly, making your marriage a priority, like recognizing that the health of your home really starts there with your marriage.
I think here also is taking a look to those values and priorities that you've set as a family, which I will give you a link that hopefully you can put in your show notes for listeners. It's a guide that actually my husband and I put together to help families set those values and priorities. It's very simple. I think that we don't realize the impact it can have to just have that framework for our family. So I do have a worksheet for listeners to help them do that.
Laura Dugger: I love that. That would be incredible. We will certainly link it in our show notes and under our Resources tab of our website to make it easy for people to find.
In another one of your books that you co-authored, entitled Hoodwinked, you share about myths moms believe and how they're unhelpful until they're replaced with truth. [00:18:06] I would love to know, what have you seen to be the most destructive myth moms believe?
Ruth Schwenk: Hoodwinked was actually my first book, and that was with Karen Ehman. She and I co-authored it together. The book is... Every chapter is a different myth that moms believe. I guess the one myth that stands out to me that I feel like really resonates with me, so I would assume others as well, is the myth, I have to do it all right, or my child will turn out wrong.
I think that that is a struggle we all face. And we don't face it once. Honestly, I still struggle with that at times as my kids are getting older. The dangers here are that when we believe a myth like that, like I have to do it all right, or my child will turn out wrong, is that we start to parent out of comparison and fear my own desires. [00:19:07] Like I want my kids to do what I want them to do. I might parent out of my past, so the things that I wrestled with still from years ago, I'm parenting to hopefully remedy that in my child. Also, I think we can parent just to find worth.
That's just being really honest, and I know some of those you want to go, ouch. You know what I mean? Am I parenting out of comparison? Come on, if we all were to be honest, I think we would probably admit, in all of those things I just mentioned, we probably all do that at different times.
But I think the biggest thing with this myth that I learned... and I remember one of my mentors, her name is Sally Clarkson. She's amazing. She's an author and a mentor to so many moms across the world. I remember her asking me years ago, "Ruth, is there one child of yours that you're just struggling to figure out?"
Immediately I said yes. And I knew exactly who it was. And she said to me, "Well, she just needs you to sympathize with her." And I kind of looked at her, and I was like... and she basically was saying to me that she's not like you. [00:20:23] So I see her world through my world, and really she is a completely different personality than me. Instead of saying, oh, don't worry about it, it's not a big deal, she needs me to say, oh, I am so sorry that you feel like that. That's one area.
When I think about this myth, you know, I have to do it all right, or my child will turn out wrong, we of course don't have to do it all right, but there are ways that we can do it better. I think this is a huge thing for us as parents, if we can realize that for every child is different.
And the tendency when we believe this, that we have to do it all right, is that we're trying to dress our kids in armor that they weren't meant to wear. What I mean by that is when we think about the story of David and Goliath in the Bible, I love this. I love this story when it comes to parenting. I have shared this numerous times over the years.
When it came to Saul turning over his armor to David, David put it on, he was like, Oh, I can't wear this. [00:21:27] So he did not wear the armor, he wore his own armor. And then, of course, we know he defeated Goliath. I feel like we as parents can be so much like Saul.
We have that idea of what we want for our kids: who we want them to be, how we want them to act, what we want them to do. But really, they're called to wear their own armor. My kids aren't called to operate of the Ruth Schwenk perspective and personality. They have their own personality. They are their own person. They will have their own armor to wear.
I think if we can come with that perspective to parenting, there will be a burden lifted there because we'll realize it's okay that they're different than us. That doesn't mean that they're wrong. Ultimately, the big picture here is what we have to keep in mind. It's only by God's grace that our children turn out at all. We don't have to get it all right. We never will. We won't be perfect. [00:22:26] But by God's grace, we have to trust that He will take care of them, and He's a much better parent than we are.
Laura Dugger: That is very hopeful and very encouraging to hear. Another topic that I want to discuss comes from your daily devotional book that's called From Grouchy to Great. So will you share with us what you've learned about overcoming anger?
Ruth Schwenk: We have to take care of ourselves. And I think the very best way that we can take care of ourselves is by spending time in God's Word and not missing that. I understand that moms are busy, and we're looking for just those little pockets of time that we can spend with God.
So I would really encourage the mom listening who feels like, I don't even know what to do here, day after day, as we spend time with God, we learn and we grow, and it changes who we are.
I have a few devotionals that we've written. [00:23:25] One is called The Better Mom Devotional. Another one is called Pressing Pause, and another one is called Settle My Soul. All three of those devotionals are meant for somebody who has just a little bit of time to get away, so you have a pocket of time, you have 10 minutes maybe, to spend time with God.
I would just really encourage the listener to grab one of those and start doing that every single day and see how God changes your heart through that. In those devotions, there's depth to them, even though they're short. There's even a little prayer and a place to write a few things if you want. But I think for me, the biggest thing has been just being consistent at spending time with God.
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I'm sure this looks different for every mom listening, but for you, with 18 years of experience, when was anger the most challenging to master, and when was it the easiest for you?
Ruth Schwenk: For me, the hardest years in the area of just anger or just frustration, lashing out just because I'm irritated or whatever, was probably when my kids were little. I feel like it also depends on external circumstances that are happening in my life. [00:25:32]
So I think we also need to recognize that. That it might be a very stressful season in my life because of something else going on, and so we're more prone because we're overwhelmed. We're stressed out by something else that, of course, is going to trigger. We're going to have less patience. All the stuff going on at home is only heightened because we're already stressed out about something else.
But I feel like I was probably the most susceptible. Well, I know I was the most susceptible to that when my kids were really little. And I think probably it was mostly because, well, hormonally, you know, of course, as you're having kids, things are just not right. And then, of course, the sleep deprivation. There's so many tedious little things that you're dealing with all the time. So I think that was probably when I was the most susceptible.
Laura Dugger: Oh, and I wonder if that's just going to be very encouraging to a lot of parents, maybe if their kids are really young. It sounds like that changes over time, specifically in relation to anger. [00:26:36]
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. I mean, as my kids have gotten older, it's so different. There's other things that are really hard and challenging, but I feel like I'm not triggered like that.
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. I love that you bring up that other things change because it's not a grass is greener on the other side or like a lie that we can buy into that, oh, in just a few years or at the next phase, this will get better. I'm sure we'll always have joys and challenges at the same time in every season.
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. And I think the biggest mistake we make is when we think once they're this age, it's going to be so much easier or I can just step back a little bit. It's like this battle for their hearts the whole time they're growing up.
I am a different person now than I was when my kids were little and moms will see that. Moms that are older that are listening are going to understand that you're different because God uses motherhood to change you. It's not only... obviously, we're meant to parent our kids, but God's changing us in this process as well. [00:27:35] As our kids get older, though, we are still battling to reach their hearts and to stay connected with them, and to point them to God.
Laura Dugger: Yes, and I don't want to derail completely. I cannot think of where it is. If it's 1st or 2nd Timothy, that kind of confusing verse where it talks about women will be saved through childbearing. There's so many different interpretations. Jesus, the one child being born, it's clear that that's our salvation or that some of the things from Eve are reversed through childbearing. There's so much commentary on it.
But one this week that I've been learning is that so much sanctification comes through the calling of raising children, not just the actual birth.
Ruth Schwenk: Absolutely. Sanctification, I mean, it brings out all those things that you thought you never struggled with are just brought to the surface when all of a sudden it's not all about you, but you have these other people to care for and to raise. [00:28:37]
Laura Dugger: As I'm thinking back of the whole of our conversation so far, when we were specifically talking about different myths that we may believe or different things that we need to realize are red flags because we could be deceived in certain areas or have just blind spots. And they're called blind spots because we're not aware of them.
But one thing you mentioned sounds like a very practical aid in this process, and that's having a mentor. You had mentioned Sally Clarkson. How did you enter into a mentor relationship, or how have mentors played a role in your life thus far?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I have always, since I was younger, always sought out older people. That's just, I guess, something I always did. And so whether it was locally in our church... or I would say through books. I mean, that's something my husband and I talk about all the time is people don't realize that really you can be mentored through books. [00:29:37]
Somebody gave me years ago, when I was starting to homeschool, they gave me a book called Educating the Wholehearted Child. This is literally like 20 years ago. It's by Clay and Sally Clarkson. It's an incredible book, not just about homeschooling, but just reaching your child's heart.
So they gave me this book, and I was just like, Oh, wow. It really turned me on to Sally's writing. So I then picked up a book by Sally called The Mission of Motherhood, and that changed my whole perspective on motherhood.
It was no longer that I was just trying to get through the day. I had a mission. I was reaching these children's hearts, teaching them about God. I was pointing them to Him with a mission to release them into the world to be His love and light.
So that's how I first became acquainted with Sally was actually through her books. Then when I started thebettermom.com, somebody connected me to her. [00:30:36] I was at a conference that she was at. I reached out to her, and we met in her hotel room. That kind of is where our friendship started.
She also became a contributor to thebettermom.com at that time, and I did some things with her ministry. And that's how I first met her. She would have these intensives at her house that were like retreats, and I went to a few of those. Now it's been 10 years since we've known each other, and my husband and I have been out to her house a few times as well to be with her and Clay.
But that's just one example of a mentor that, obviously, I feel like God orchestrated that. There's people all around us that we can reach out to, and I don't think it has to be something like, "Hey, would you be my mentor?" Although you may want to say that. But I just think it's about starting to get together with somebody who's older than you, starting to put yourself in proximity with them.
Maybe you have them over for dinner. Maybe you get together with coffee. [00:31:37] Maybe you ask them to get together. You be the one who reaches out to them. Because I think we all get in this spot where we're just waiting for somebody, waiting for somebody to come and help us.
If you feel like, oh my word, I don't even know anybody who could be that to me, that is the beauty of books. I mean, we have incredible podcasts. The things that we can learn and grow from things like that, they have one of the biggest impacts on me.
Laura Dugger: I like that, that you don't even have to label it as a mentor, be really rigid as to what the role needs to look like. But that just sounds wonderful, all of those applications. I have a few more practical topics that I want to ask you about, because you seem to be doing these well, and I just love hearing others' best practices. So can you teach us how you find time for replenishing self-care without feeling selfish? [00:32:37]
Ruth Schwenk: Well, this is pretty funny, because I guess I don't feel selfish. I mean, I feel selfish when I just do something like that for myself, because I feel like I'm giving all the time. Do you know what I mean? And I need that time to myself.
And I know probably a lot of us have heard this before, but Jesus needed time for himself, right? He got away. I think if we want to operate out of the best spot, we have to be able to step back, and we have to rest, and we have to refuel.
What this looks like is obviously different, depending on the season that we're in. But even when my kids were little, I was intentional. I might schedule a retreat for one night. I knew when I needed that time. And so if you're feeling like that, and you're like, Oh my word, I need some time away, I would just encourage you to talk to your husband about it, and schedule just even one night away. [00:33:37]
Find something that you can go to. Even getting away by yourself, maybe, to spend some time reflecting. Maybe you go to a hotel. Maybe you find a friend who wants to do that as well. We have to do it. We have to intentionally make time to refuel, especially when we have kids, and we're in the busy, because all of a sudden, a year goes by, and we're like, we are completely depleted, because we never intentionally took time, set aside for ourself.
I also think just daily there's self-care that happens. For me, I know I have to get up in the morning before my kids for a while. I mean, I'm an extrovert, but when your house is full of older kids that want to talk all the time, which I love, but you need that time. I need some time by myself.
If you have smaller children, that might mean at night, when they go to bed, because for me now, my kids don't go to bed until I... you know, I'm going to bed, and they're going to bed. So I don't have that nighttime anymore. So I have to do that in the morning. So it looks differently, obviously, whatever season you're in, but I think that it's about being intentional. [00:34:46]
Laura Dugger: Yes. I think that's the common thread, and I love how you are showing us that is actually possible. We just seize that opportunity. Another practical question then, how do you think we can create a God-honoring home environment?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I would say it's never too late to start. Just being in ministry, we've seen so many families who aren't thinking about this until their kids are older, and they're like, it's too late. I would encourage you that it's never too late to start.
But I think creating a God-honoring home starts with us as parents and us living out our faith. So this looks like they're watching us. Of course, they're not expecting us to have it all together. I think the most powerful thing is that they see when we're reading our Bible in the morning, and they also see when one afternoon we say something mean that we didn't mean to say, and we have to apologize. [00:35:46]
I think it's real life lived out in front of them, continually pointing them to God. So maybe your family is facing something really hard, and you have to sit down with your kids, and you have to tell them, but you're letting them know, we can trust God. We've seen Him provide for us in the past. He's going to provide for us in the future. We know this is what God says about Himself. God is really a part of every ounce of our life.
And I think when our kids are watching that, and it's lived out by the parents, it has a greater impact than we realize. It's not a perfect faith lived out. It's a real faith lived out in front of them that I feel like has such an impact on them.
And finding every opportunity we can to point them to God and challenging them. I just sat down with my youngest daughter this past week, and I said, "What devotional are you reading every morning? Let's talk about that for a minute." And then I said, "Okay, I want you to make sure before you do anything else when you wake up in the morning that you read through this devotional. This will set you up for the day." [00:36:54]
So just checking in like that, really encouraging our kids to follow God. Just having that family mission and values and priorities is really a great way to set the tone for your home and your family following God. Just simply picking up a family devotional.
We have one that we just released in the past year called Faith Forward Family Devotional for a family with kids of all ages to sit down, read just a family devotional every night. Maybe it's when you're sitting around the dinner table. Maybe it's later on, right before everybody goes to bed. But just like some sort of a rhythm like that.
You just don't realize how over the years the impact that that can have on a child and then also just the impact it has on creating that God-honoring home that you so desire.
Laura Dugger: That sounds like an incredible first step for someone. So we're going to make it really easy and do a giveaway on social media this week for that devotional. So stay posted for that. [00:37:55]
And then just regardless of the time when somebody's finding this episode and listening, it doesn't matter what time of year it is, but I know that you have a simple practice for making time for the best things. So will you share more about your annual personal inventory?
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. This kind of goes along with being proactive versus reactive and actually, it's something that Sally Clarkson taught me years ago at one of her intensives. I call it my yearly personal inventory. And what it is, is it's just a sheet of questions that I look at every year to see where I'm at, what things need to change.
I might list the things that I'm doing, maybe I think about the things that I just really don't want to do anymore or feel like they are interfering with some of my other priorities or whatever. So I might list things that I want to let go of in that year coming up or things I'm ready to take on that I feel like God's calling me to do. [00:39:02]
But it's so powerful for us, whether you do it once a year or every six months, it's like a recalibration. You're like, okay, where am I at here? What needs to change? What do I need to adjust? And I feel like if we can as families, as moms do this for ourselves personally, and then also for our family, it can have such an impact on how we spend our time. This is another download that I have that any mom can go through. Again, any time of the year you could go through this. And it's really just kind of a heart check and a life check to see where you're at and where you want to go moving forward.
Laura Dugger: That would be incredible to link to as well because I think for living an intentional life, this is a great place to begin is starting with that inventory. And so I think that will make it easy for everyone to follow through. And Ruth, you have so much more that you could teach us. Where can listeners follow up or find you online? [00:40:02]
Ruth Schwenk: I'm on Instagram. That's where I am a lot. On Instagram or actually on my Facebook page as well. And that's @RuthSchwenk.
Then we do have a podcast called Rootlike Faith Podcast. My husband and I both do that. So that's really if you're wanting to grow spiritually. We talk about all sorts of things for spiritual growth there. And then online, if you just go to thebetterlifeministry.com, that will direct you to all of our websites.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And you may be aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because 'savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so I would love to know, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Ruth Schwenk: This is really practical, I think. At least it really helps me. But every night before I go to bed, I'm usually the last one up and we all go to bed pretty late, but I'm usually the last one up.[00:41:02] And I make sure that everything is picked up and put in its proper place. I also have the kids, they take whatever they need to to their rooms or whatever.
But I spend probably 10 minutes before bed just picking up and making sure everything is cleaned up off the ground. I have one of those robot vacuums. Oh my word, that thing is a life changer. And I just hit it to run while I go to bed. So when I wake up in the morning, I can start my day fresh. Like there's nothing worse than walking downstairs and everything is a mess when you're trying to start your day. So it's such a fresh way to start the day.
Laura Dugger: That is incredibly savvy. I love that. Ruth, it's just no wonder that you have such a wide-reaching audience because you are kind and practical and genuinely helpful. So thank you for sharing all of your wise ways in order to help each of us live a more purposeful and intentional life worthy of that calling that we've received from God. [00:42:07] It was such an honor to host you as my guest today.
Ruth Schwenk: Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [00:43:06] Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:44:12]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:45:18]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Nov 09, 2020
Monday Nov 09, 2020
120. Our Story for His Glory with Mercedes Cotchery
**Transcription Below**
1 Corinthians 12:31 NIV “Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way."
Mercedes Cotchery is a devoted Christian, wife, and mother.
Her name, Mercedes, means Our Lady of Mercy and bestows its honor from the Virgin Mary. In her spirit, she has become a woman of many mercies, and a mother of many children – her name manifesting itself into her destiny.
As she thinks about her family, she likes to think that they are all chosen. She is a proud mother to five children – Jacey (13), Nicholas (9), Joshua (9), Journey (7), and Nile (3). They mean the world to her, bringing her immeasurable joy and invaluable life lessons from their day-to-day experiences. Every single day she learns something new about the people they’re becoming, about herself, and she sees the world a little brighter.
Now, she lives a life where most days she is able to stay at home with her children, homeschool them, and flourish together.
Currently living outside of Charlotte, North Carolina, she is also an NFL wife to Jerricho Cotchery. This has been an amazing journey, and it’s what brought them to the Queen City. They’ve been blessed to grow their love, grow their family, and grow in the Lord together. The great state of North Carolina has also blessed her with a unique opportunity to own a furniture store.
She believes in helping mommies all over find and pull out the phenomenon within them, to discover and celebrate their gifts of being Phenomenal Moms, or what she likes to call PheMoms. She even has a blog that is dedicated to the essence of PheMoms everywhere, to marriage & mommy moments, baby beauty, birthday parties, and families growing phenomenally in Christ.
Mercedes believes in pollinating beautiful experiences, and is also a speaker available for engagements and events related to home schooling, marriage, being a PheMom, and adoption.
Connect with Mercedes On Facebook and Instagram: @mercedescotchery and @designavenuehome
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
This conversation was such a gift. Mercedes Cotchery is my guest today, and she is a captivating storyteller and humble daughter of the King. We are going to cover topics relating to marriage, parenting, homeschooling, and race. And she covers everything with grace and truth. [00:01:19]
I hope you enjoy this time as much as I did. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mercedes.
Mercedes Cotchery: Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: Can you just begin by telling us a bit more about yourself?
Mercedes Cotchery: Yeah. I'll keep it simple. I'm a wife and a mother and a furniture shopkeeper. Together my husband and I have five children. This week, Lord willing, we will welcome our 24-year-old niece who will become a resident within our home as well. And so we are gonna work to kind of help her figure out what she wants to do in her career and also, by God's grace, try to disciple her and keep her just under our care.
Laura Dugger: Wow, well that's a lot to unpack right there. But let's just start with marriage. How did you meet Jericho, and what ups and downs have you experienced in your marriage? [00:02:18]
Mercedes Cotchery: So we met on the campus of NC State. And I know the exact day and everything. October 27th, 2001. We were introduced by mutual friends. Honestly, what has led to most of our downs, you know, was just that when we got together, neither of us knew how to appropriately live as a godly spouse for the other. Just kind of reflecting on it now, I feel like we simply thought that the institution of marriage in and of itself was enough to right our wrongs.
So, you know, with fornication or any of the other things that we might have done prior to being married, I think we thought that marriage would kind of satisfy that. It wasn't a spoken thing that we thought, but I guess our habits or the way that we lived kind of spoke to that.
Laura Dugger: What kind of families did you both come from, or also church families and belief systems? [00:03:20]
Mercedes Cotchery: So my husband, by God's grace in general, he was raised to believe in Jesus Christ, and he was expected to attend church. Now, he was a teenager. I wouldn't say typical, because some people grow up and never steer away from God. But he was, you know, not always obedient with what his mom's wishes were, but he never spent a day not knowing or believing in God and Jesus.
As for me, my mother did her very best, but my background actually was Jehovah's Witness. So when I was about four, my mom was napping. I don't remember the exact age, but when I tell this story, I say four. But my mom was napping on the sofa, and she woke up to me sobbing. And she asked what was wrong, and I just said with tear-filled eyes, "I don't want to die."
And so she jumped off the sofa and called my aunt, who is and was at the time a Jehovah's Witness, and we began having Bible study. [00:04:22] I would continue to have these studies both with my mother and on my own until I graduated from high school. I never was baptized in that faith or anything like that.
What that faith did for me was it just gave me rules, I guess. There were certain boundaries that I didn't cross, but there were some that I did, but I don't consider myself having been saved during those years. And so that was kind of our background.
And so then we get together, and I had a weird kind of thought process. I believed that I only committed two sins when I met my husband. One was fornication, and the other was profanity. Other than that, I just thought I was perfect.
So I would always kind of have these conversations with God because, you know, I still prayed and all those things. I'm not saying that those prayers were being answered, but I'm just... you know, with us, the culture that we grew up in, life being so hard and pressing upon you, you don't grow up not believing in God. [00:05:25] That was just foreign.
So I naturally prayed and all those things. And so I would always just kind of try to, in my own kind of twisted, weird, misinformed kind of way, but this just shows you how gracious God is. I would just say to Him, If you would send a husband my way, I would give you my heart. I'd give my life to you. I would get saved and live my life for you.
That was always kind of my prayer once I got to college. And especially in 2001 because prior to that, my family had experienced a hurricane and lost our home and lost everything. So I was kind of just displaced and having some issues in my relationships with my girlfriends. And so I was really beginning to pray more and more for a spouse.
So when I literally met my husband on October 27th, the next day was a Sunday, and that following Monday was going to be my birthday. So some of my friends got together and had a dinner for me, and they invited him the day after we met.
I went home that day from that dinner, and I just prayed, and I just said, "Lord, you know, I just met this gentleman, but if you'd have him be my husband, I think I could live forever for him, and I think that I could live for you with him." [00:06:36]
Me feeling this way about my future husband wasn't because he was just some model citizen. He did have a candor and a demeanor about himself that I was not accustomed to coming from a young man. He was very soft-spoken, very tender, very gentle, and I think that that is what made me think that he was the guy for me. We've been together ever since the day that we met.
And so I started asking my husband, my future husband, just questions to see where he was, who he was. You know, could you be with a girl that you didn't have premarital sex with? I'm just a girl on the scene, and he's thinking, okay, oh my gosh, what is going on? But he would answer the questions because he was just that polite. So he's like, yeah, you know, I could be with a girl that I wasn't intimate with.
And then I asked him, well, how many children do you want? Do you believe in God? Just started asking him all these things. [00:07:33] He doesn't know, but I had been praying some things to God, and I was ready to start living my life. I was older. I'm older than my husband, so I was just ready to start living my life.
And so he answered the questions, and we just kind of continued to court and be together. And 13 months into our relationship, he proposed to me.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I love hearing the background of that story. Can you also unpack a little bit then of your faith journey and your testimony? Because you said you wouldn't consider yourself saved before. So when did all of that change?
Mercedes Cotchery: So it gets tricky. You know, often in church, and I'm defining church as the collective church and not just the building for now. So often with church, people like to say, "Oh, I got saved on this day, and they give you specific things." I consider the year 2004, even though I started making these steps in 2001 and probably well before that. [00:08:33] 2004 was the year that I consider that I was saved.
So with me kind of growing up being a cultural Christian, and then I know that gets tricky because I mentioned Jehovah's Witness, but me being a cultural Christian, I aspired and desired to live for God. I just didn't know what that was, what that meant, what that looked like.
I still hadn't even heard the gospel yet when I was probing my husband and asking him all these questions. But the Lord had just so gracious and merciful, has been and was, at the time, just so patient with me.
I was working at a pharmaceutical company, GlaxoSmithKline. So as I was studying at the university, I was also simultaneously interning at a pharmaceutical company. The last department that I worked in at this pharmaceutical company before I would get married and move to Long Island, New York, there was a gentleman there, and he also went to NC State. [00:09:36]
He graduated with a degree in chemical engineering. He was about a year older than I was, and we called ourselves pals. He was Chinese, and I just loved this friend so much. He never told me that he was a Christian. I just knew that he was. And so the Lord saw fit for my time with him to line up with my time meeting my husband.
So as the Lord was having me have this paradigm shift that I really didn't know that I was having, I was still thinking that I was in control, and I was just trying to order my steps and get ready to become what I thought was a good Christian, Hal and I, we were working on some physical test with the drug that we were working on, and I just started asking him questions about God and Jesus and he just started answering them for me. He invited me to attend church with him.
Now, because of my experience with Jehovah's Witnesses, there were things about the Orthodox Christian faith at the time that I wasn't ready to accept. [00:10:41] And so going to this particular non-denominational church was just what the doctor had ordered for my heart.
They weren't pushy. You didn't have to look a certain way. We were just an eclectic bunch of people. Now Hal was the only Chinese, and I was the only Black American there, but none of that mattered because we were all just really unique.
The church met in a unique spot. Hal introduced me to the pastor and invited me to a community group, and I just kind of slowly began my life. Then I would eventually get baptized by this pastor. He did our premarital counseling. And I'll never forget the day before I got baptized in [Raleigh or Durham? 00:11:25] he just took a few moments, this pastor, to just explain a few things.
Even when I look back at it now, I can't believe that as immature and young as I was in my faith, I grasped what he was saying. [00:11:42] It wasn't that his words were profound or ambiguous or difficult to understand. It was just that my heart could receive it. And I know that that's a gift from God.
What he shared was that every single one of you here have been saved before today. Your baptism does not save you, and you have been taking steps to this day for a while prior to this point. That resonated with me so much because I knew that in 2001, I had started taking steps. It was so important for me to hear that your baptism didn't save you.
I can't really say that I knew that prior to that moment, but I grasped all of that before the Lord allowed my flesh to touch that water, so that I would never be deceived to think that that water did something to me, that I would always know that it was by the Holy Spirit, which is a gift from God.
And ever since the day that I've been baptized, but honestly, ever since the day that I met my husband, for the most part, not perfectly, I have been on fire for the Lord, not because of me, but because of who God is. [00:12:56] My husband wasn't exactly where I was, not as fervent as I was, but by God's grace, he did get there. I've been going after the Lord ever since.
Laura Dugger: Mercedes, that is so powerful to hear your story. We know that Jesus tells us in the Bible that Jesus is the author and the perfecter of our faith, and so it just never gets old hearing every person's individual story. Your gentleness is so apparent throughout, but also your contentment is displayed in your adoption story. So will you elaborate on your journey to adoption?
Mercedes Cotchery: As a young girl in junior high, about the fifth or sixth grade, I had a friend. She was incredibly tall for her age. She just looked like a woman at a very early age. All of my friends they all just began to pass me by and enter into womanhood, but I did not. [00:14:02]
So by seventh or eighth grade, I began speaking as if I was there, but I didn't know for sure. My body, by God's grace, just developed very normally. I just never developed a menstrual cycle.
So by seventh and eighth grade, my friends and I would begin to speak about surrogacy, and one of my dear friends would say that she would be my surrogate. Obviously, we were children. We didn't know what we were saying, but somehow we just knew that I was barren.
I would continue along this path, and then the summer prior to entering my senior year, I went to Governor's School, and I got pretty ill. I would often get ill if I got too hot. And living in the South, you're often too hot in the summertime because it's hot.
This particular summer, you know, walking to and from class on a collegiate campus, though I wasn't yet a college student, it was the summer before my senior year, it was probably just a little bit more than my body could take. [00:15:05]
Our menstrual cycle is a woman's way of cleansing itself, and those things didn't happen for me. And so somehow I ended up seeing a gynecologist. I don't necessarily know how I went from being ill, and my mom decided that I needed to see a gynecologist, but by God's grace, that was the order of my steps.
I saw a female doctor, and she administered a pap smear for me, and right away, before an ultrasound or anything, her first inclination was just to say, "You know, I don't feel a uterus." She said, "I can't say for sure, but we'll have an ultrasound, and after that point, we'll know."
A few weeks later we had an ultrasound, and she analyzed the results, and she confirmed that her initial hypothesis was true, that I didn't have a uterus. I don't remember if she knew the term for the disorder.
There's several different terms. One is pretty long. I don't know if I can pronounce it. Let's see. Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome. That simply just means to be born without a uterus. [00:16:14] By God's grace, because I found out at such a young age, and I was still pretty naive, I was never really broken by it.
Where I'm from, and kind of the state of the world now, people were somewhat relieved, I guess, that I couldn't have children. I was a studious child. Well, not studious, but pretty intelligent, and so people were thankful that possibly having a child out of wedlock would not be something that will hold me back.
Now, it's sad that people thought that way, but I understood that ideology. In a weird way, I kind of wore this condition as a badge of honor. And then, you know, being exposed to Jehovah's Witnesses, sometimes they take scriptures pretty legalistically, and I don't mean that in a bad way. But this was where the Lord allowed me to draw the good. [00:17:13]
Often, because Jehovah's Witnesses think so much about end times, there's a verse that speaks about how you can be blessed when you don't have children, because, in end times, you won't have to worry about wrangling your small children. You can just focus on trying to get yourself together for the Lord.
And so often the person that I was studying with, and another one of my aunts, just made me feel like it was kind of a gift, and so I feel like that was the Lord's way of protecting me from this. So I never saw this condition as a bad thing. I saw it as a gift from God.
Now, my mother did mourn, and I asked her... right away when we were told, I asked her, "Mommy, why are you crying?" I don't remember what she said, but I didn't shed a tear about this until 2006, you know. So I found this out in like 1998 or 1997, and it took about seven or eight years before I even cried. [00:18:15] And it wasn't crying because I couldn't. But I learned to be content through my faith.
So once my husband and I got married, and we moved to Long Island, he played for the New York Jets, and we had a wonderful chaplain there, and he had a remarkable wife who was exceptionally patient and long-suffering. She would take the wives, and we would go through scriptures and write notes on our… whatever we were studying, and she would answer all of our questions.
She was the first wife that ever discipled me. And this would go on for years. Then about two years after her being under her tutelage, another wife took us, and we started studying some of Priscilla Shire's books, you know, He Speaks to Me, and kind of all those things, her earlier books.
So through those studies, my heart began to wonder, why did God allow me to be born without a uterus? Though science can say one thing, the Lord could have easily given me a uterus. [00:19:19] That's a very easy thing for Him.
Scripture asks the rhetorical question, what is too hard for the Lord, and obviously, the answer to that is nothing. And so it wasn't too difficult for the Lord to give me a uterus. He just chose not to.
So I drew into my God by His grace, and I asked Him, why did you have me be born this way? What is it that you have of me? I think about Paul in Acts. Some of the other versions with Paul's conversion don't pose the question of Paul asking God, what do you wish for me to do? But the King James asks that question. So when I think about my time with the Lord during this period in 2006, I think about Him just asking God. So studying and reading His Word and praying brought me to adoption.
Initially, when I had those thoughts, I can't say that I was content. [00:20:20] It was something that I desired to do, but a little I still desired to have biological children, but in time even that would completely go away, actually in like a few months.
All that to say that I'm content because I'm content in the Lord, and His ways are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts. But He is wiser than I can comprehend, and so if He has decided that I don't need a uterus, then I agree, and I have decided that I don't need a uterus.
And then the natural process of reasoning and logic lead me to believe that since I don't need a uterus, then I also don't need biological children, and then I can be content in that. And I am so content in it.
Laura Dugger: Your peace and purpose that came through that entire journey is incredibly inspiring. [00:21:21] First of all, I'm so honored to get to sit under your teaching and learn this from you. And then also it's so apparent that God has clearly used your story and your exact makeup and design to bear much fruit. Because you did mention you and Jericho now are the parents of five children. Could you tell us a little bit more about their age range and life right now?
Mercedes Cotchery: My oldest, she will turn 13 on Monday, so we will officially have a teenager. I just want to say she works so hard, I could cry now, and she tries so hard to please us. We know that ultimately she needs to please God, but we're so thankful at just how hard she tries. It's just beautiful to see what we require of her for school is not normal, and she just humbly and softly and sweetly and graciously tries to do what we ask. [00:22:28]
Then we have two 9-year-old sons, one will turn 10 in November. Next we have a 7-year-old girl. She is a firecracker, like seriously, for real. And our baby is three, and he will turn four in September.
It's absolutely crazy. I'm speaking softly and quietly and gently, but it's absolutely crazy to have five children and homeschool and be a wife and a shopkeeper and love Jesus and all the things. It is crazy.
Laura Dugger: I think that's a very real picture. Just with sometimes all the chaos that comes with having a wonderful house full of people, do you find yourself ever having to raise your voice or experience that chaos? [00:23:29]
Mercedes Cotchery: Oh, yeah. Sometimes I think that as parents and moms, we don't talk enough about the reality of being parents. Sometimes I feel like that's how people end up thinking that maybe their children need help outside of the home. I'm in no way saying that they don't. But children are born sinners, and it is shown every single day.
And to raise your children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord takes work. To do anything well in a way that pleases God takes work. It's not easy. It's years of training. That's why children are born children and not adults, because they need to be taught to be an adult.
So this voice gets raised all day, every day, because that is what it takes. That is what it takes. Now, not being belligerent or yelling or sinning. Not that I've never sinned by yelling at my children, but that is not my normal and typical way of being. But it takes some serious chops. Because children want to go their way and we need them to go the way of the Lord. [00:24:36]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Many of us listening have now experienced life as a homeschooling parent, or some maybe are currently choosing to homeschool their children. So I think it would be wonderful to gain some tips from a veteran in this area. You've been at this for years, so are there any systems or rhythms that make homeschooling a joy for both you and your children?
Mercedes Cotchery: Preparedness is what will make it a joy, and that's something that we cannot take lightly. We have to prepare for our children each day. Anything that we do takes work. [00:26:38] So today, I woke up at 4:45 AM, right, because I knew all that I needed to do.
This isn't to make people feel guilty about having a checklist, or this isn't about that, this is just being real. Like, if there's a certain fruit that I want to be produced, then I need to put in the work and sow those seeds with God's help.
So at 4:45, I woke up to make sure that my mind was set for what you've blessed me to do. Then after that, I needed to make sure that my lesson plan was ready for my soon-to-be 13-year-old because she has Latin and logic and all kinds of things. This week, she needs to write, by God's grace, an outline on a historic American character. She needs to do five lessons in her logic booklet. She has to write an anti-chart. That's an outline for a story that she has to write for a persuasive essay. [00:27:36]
She has to go through an entire lesson of Latin with the second declension. She has to write a little blurb about herself. And I'm forgetting probably three other subjects that she has to do, right? So I knew I needed to be on with you at noon, but I had to do justice to what she needed to do.
In addition, my two 9-year-olds are learning to write papers, and so we had to work on their keyword outline and kind of introduce some mechanics of the English language to them. They needed to study some vocabulary so that they can broaden their palate and be able to bask in the 600,000 words that we have in the English language. Then that doesn't even mention my two younger children, which, by God's grace, I have a nanny, and so she kind of will deal with them for me.
But all that to say that I don't necessarily have to use the words systems or rhythms, just period. [00:28:39] I need to be prepared for my children so that I'm not caught off guard by the day and that I'm not giving myself an excuse to sin. Because sin is going to show its face in my day anyway. And so the ways that I can alleviate that so that I can meet my children with gentleness, so that as we are together, not only are they hearing me make much of the name of Christ, but they're also simultaneously seeing me live like I truly do make much of the name of Christ.
And then in the moments where I fall short and I live in contradiction to what I confess, then I can go to them and also humbly apologize and repent and tell them where I was wrong. That's really what I try to make a habit of doing. On days when I don't prepare for my children, those days are not good. They are not good days.
Laura Dugger: I think that brings up the other side, because there are two sides to everything. So what are the struggles that you've encountered with homeschooling? [00:29:41]
Mercedes Cotchery: One, it's a lot of work. It's a lot for a parent to have to do all of the subjects. And not only that, but you also have to introduce new things to your children while holding them accountable to the prior things that they've learned. So keeping up with making sure that you're checking the work that they do, being consistent, being diligent.
And then when they're younger, not growing bored with the repetition because that's really how we learn. We learn through repeating the same thing until we master it. And then once we master it, we take it up a notch. And that it's like walking up a set of stairs. You cannot get to the fifth step until you've walked up steps one, two, three, and four.
So for me, the difficulty of just being consistent and making sure that I understand the importance of laying the foundation so that we can build on it and being prepared for it all. [00:30:41]
Laura Dugger: I think we can just glean a lot of wisdom and parenting in general from you. So from your 13 years of experience, a few questions, one, just for fun, is there any age that has come most naturally for you to parent or any age that has really been most commonly your struggle with your kids?
Mercedes Cotchery: So, babies, infants, by God's grace, are one of my gifts. I can get an infant on a schedule like nobody's business, where they're feeding three hours a day, sleeping for about three hours until they need that next bottle, and really kind of training children in those very young years.
The ages that are difficult, the two, three, and four. And it's simply because now they're beginning to talk. And to a 2-year-old, they've only lived for two years, and to them, that's like a thousand years because they feel like they've been here forever. [00:31:44]
That same thing kind of progresses with being three and four. So convincing your child that they are a child is special. So, yes, those are the difficult years.
And I'm realizing with my 13-year-old, I don't know because we kind of have just gotten here, my soon-to-be 13-year-old. But I noticed that I don't have to be as brassy with her. It actually encourages me to parent the way that I have parented so far, because it gets softer and easier if I can be consistent with the work that it takes.
But the trick is that as my children are getting older, I'm also getting older. And I noticed last week I have lost a bit of my step. That's what athletes say. Like if my husband, you know, if you're not as agile or as fast, you've lost this step. And so I have lost a bit of my step. So with my children getting older, it is a lot more difficult for me to have the same endurance that I had 13 years ago. [00:32:49]
I mean, if one little thing went wrong with my 13-year-old when she was a baby, maybe she didn't nap as long. Maybe she didn't eat as much one day, I would go straight to the Lord and pray and ask him to reveal to me how I could help her.
If we were going to fly on an airplane, I would practice with her at home so that I could make sure that she would nap on the plane in my lap. I would really nest over what it is that I needed to do to help us be successful on this airplane. Or whatever it is that we were going to do with her, I had time to practice for it.
But as I get to child five, I don't have the same amount of time to spend with each individual child because now every child needs something. So though the ages two, three, and four get harder in general, parenting has gotten more difficult.
But the beauty of it is... you know, 1 Timothy 2:15 tells us that moms are saved through child-rearing. [00:33:47] And so in the same way that I'm trying to emphasize the importance of having a plan and being methodical as we homeschool our children so that we can try to alleviate some of the issues that we might run into during the day because things are going to happen, you know, the Lord allows us for the most part to have children kind of one at a time so that you grow with them.
And so now having five kids, it's like someone just opened a fire hose and they just shot it in my face. The Lord was patient. He's still patient, but he was very patient early on to allow me to grow gradually. Now as my children were growing and I was teaching them, I was growing in my endurance. As in these later years, I'm losing a little bit of my step, I now have this work ethic. So maybe I'm not as swift or sharp as I was, but I can work harder now than I could 13 years ago.
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting to hear that whole progression. [00:34:48] Even on a super practical level, what chores and schedules, and lessons are happening in your house right now?
Mercedes Cotchery: I spend so much time kind of homeschooling and teaching. My children do have chores, but I'm not so purposeful that like this week so and so does this. So what happens is I enjoy being a homemaker and our lives are a little different than most. So sometimes we have people that help us clean. Right now I do not have a person who helps me clean. Don't I need one? But I also have a nanny.
So my children don't have set chores, but they can do everything. I try to make sure that school is their primary focus. And because I know that we ask a lot of them, I don't weigh them down with other things. You know, they don't wake up thinking, oh, my goodness, I have to do this today. It's just that if there's time, you know, because we train them to be obedient and respectful, for the most part, they are not perfect, if we call upon them for something, they are eager to help. [00:35:51]
Even my 9-year-old sons know how to clean the kitchen. Cleaning the kitchen is not necessarily their job, but on a day where mommy is weak or she needs rest, I've fallen behind because as perfect as I may sound, I am a procrastinator.
So when I need them, they know how to either wash the dishes by hand or load the dishwasher, dry them, put them away. And then every morning when before they come downstairs, they spread their beds. You know, they do their chores. They put their clothing away. They make sure their rooms are neat for the most part before they come downstairs, because very rarely do we go back upstairs until bedtime.
Then when we have our meals, they're responsible for just making sure that their dishes either get put away. Often we eat out of paper plates since there's so many. And these people like to eat and we're eating like three meals a day and a snack. So they make sure that they kind of discard their things. [00:36:47]
They don't often clean the restrooms. I think I've let my oldest do that twice, but one of my sons, my oldest is so good at helping me garden. So he loves to pull weeds for me. Our driveway is abnormally long, like where when we have to take our trash, sometimes we drive it down.
So my sons are very good at taking the trash cans and the recycling bin down to the end of the street or bringing those back. But they don't specifically have chores.
I really like them to focus on their studies and focus on trying to be catechized and have a practical understanding of who our savior is, hoping that one day He will take over their hearts and what we've tried to place in their hearts will become a real reality for them. So for whatever reason, yeah, my heart just... I just really want them to obey us and do school. Those are their chores. Those are their jobs. [00:37:46]
Laura Dugger: You've also alluded to all these different roles that you're simultaneously carrying. So how do you personally make the most of your many roles without sacrificing your main priorities?
Mercedes Cotchery: I will say it's not easy, but I see my main role as a daughter of the King and so then everything else stems from that. And I found that when I'm faithful to working on who I am in Christ, being a daughter of the King, I can get all my other roles in check.
Now being a shopkeeper really, really does stretch me. I have a great store manager, so I only have to be at the store twice a week. When my husband purchased the store for me, I was exceptionally naive and I didn't know how much of me would be required. And it does require a lot more of me than I had planned. [00:38:45]
But I'm faithful to my priorities first. So it's being a follower of Christ, being a wife and then a mother, and then a shopkeeper. And if I don't lose that order, I can do a pretty decent job at everything within reason, because obviously I fall short.
Then I have to be honest, my husband is at home right now. He's not coaching football this year or playing, and he really blesses me beyond measure. He went to the store for me yesterday and he had to do a few tasks that needed some manpower.
When I went to kind of shower and get dressed for my time with you, he watched with my sons as they kind of worked through their keyword outlines. But the secret to all of it is just knowing who I am in Christ and knowing my limitations. The Lord is infinite, but I am not, and I cannot do all things. He can do all things. [00:39:50]
Laura Dugger: That is such a good word and a reminder we can't have enough of. And it's just helpful to hear the real picture, like what hands go into it and what our responsibilities are. And you're right that we are finite. What other wisdom and truth have you clung to from the Lord that helped you fight false guilt, especially as it relates to having a career in addition to caring for a family?
Mercedes Cotchery: The first question you should ask yourself is just why am I feeling this way? Don't put it in the column of false guilt or real guilt, just why. When we enter into a right relationship with God, we spend a lifetime being sanctified. And this sanctification is working on our inner man, like our heart, our mind, the spirit portion of us.
So when we align the spirit portion of ourselves with God and His will, our intuition kicks in. [00:40:50] So if we're doing something and it makes us feel guilty, I'm not saying that we should necessarily feel guilty about it, but there's a reason.
So what I do is I think about Hebrews chapter 12, and I consider... This portion will come from James, but I consider all hardship as instruction from the Lord. And so whenever I feel guilty, because I do, I try to really reason and ask myself, okay, why am I feeling this way? And often it's something that I either did or I'm not doing well enough.
So for example, if I go to my shop and I have to leave my children, there's nothing wrong with having time away from your children, but why am I feeling guilty today that I'm leaving my children? Well, the real reason that I'm feeling guilty today is because on the days when I was able to be home with my children, I wasn't fully emotionally available to them. So now this one day that I get to go away to the shop, I feel guilty because my mind is telling me I should be with my children. [00:41:53]
So what this guilt is going to teach me is that when I have the opportunity to be with my children, be with them, be present with them, and love on them as much as I can so that when I'm away, this false guilt won't even creep into my mind. Or if it does, I can denounce it and say, No, on Tuesday I did this, this, this with the kids, you know, like I can speak to it. But I never completely discount my guilt, I try to reason through it. And Isaiah admonishes us to reason.
Laura Dugger: That is so beneficial. Thank you. I feel like you've kind of helped me, encouraged me to slow down that process and another way to get to the root of it. Something else I'm just learning a lot about right now is spiritual gifts. And I love asking other people about theirs. So do you happen to know yours?
Mercedes Cotchery: I feel like anything that you're good at, that you use to bring God glory can be a gift. [00:42:57] The things that I'm good at, I think, cause it doesn't sound so humble, but I think that I'm good at teaching by God's grace. I'm good at reasoning and logic, loving, and that is the one that gets me so emotional, and adoption and marriage have taught me that.
But one thing that I would like to take the time to discuss now are the gifts of the spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Before COVID people would learn that at homeschool and just say, "Oh, you must be so patient." And I learned that as a believer, we all should be working towards those gifts of the spirit because since the Holy Spirit indwells us and that indwelling came at the point of conversion salvation, those are all gifts that we should have. [00:44:00]
Now, my husband, for example, he is exceptionally gifted with the gift of patience. I'm just going to be a normal Christian with patience that he is like... patience is actually one of his gifts in the way that love is my gift.
Laura Dugger: I am just nodding along as you're sharing, Mercedes, because just through this conversation, even I can see those gifts that God has supernaturally given you. I love how you summarized it just saying that anything that we are good at, and that does bring him glory, that that can be a gift.
Mercedes Cotchery: Yeah, because you should be sharing it with others. Like my oldest, you know, she has lots of gifts, but a gift that I love seeing through her isn't a gift that's listed in scripture. She has an abnormal work ethic. That girl just works so hard. [00:45:00]
And that's something that she can share with her siblings because she's worked so hard and laid a foundation for our homeschool. She's able to gently go behind and help them learn things or show them how she did things based on the work that she's put in.
But for you, you should even consider what you do as a podcaster. You spend your time doing this. You were so well with corresponding with me and when I was terrible with corresponding with you and keeping us on task and just being organized, you know. Like you dedicate your time to do this away from your children. And it is something that you are doing for the glory of God.
You should definitely consider that you're gifted in this. I'm sure you have 7,000 other gifts, but I would encourage you obviously to consider the gifts of the spirit, but consider things that you do daily and take them before the Lord and just ask Him, you know, does He believe that this is a gift of yours. [00:46:01]
But your gifts, where you start looking for your gifts is you consider what your life looks like. And so like adoption being one of my gifts. At every point in my life, I've had a friend that was adopted. So as I started looking to see if adoption was something that the Lord had for me, I took a survey of my life to see like, what about my life looks like adoption before I just consider this a gift of mine, what about my life looks like I could be gifted in loving others, what about my life looks like I'm good at teaching, you know, what about my life speaks to the fact that my reasoning, critical thinking and logical skills, what about my life looks like those could be gifts. Your life is your proof for these things.
So, again, like everything else, you start with a question. What are my gifts? Not that you're asking me, because you know what yours are, but for anyone, this is what I do for myself. What are my gifts? And then you hypothesize what you think one gift is. And then as you lay the framework to prove whether or not this truly is your gift, take a survey of your life to see what about your life looks like what you hypothesized is a gift. [00:47:19]
Laura Dugger: I feel like you can't help, but be encouraging. And I just really appreciate that. Thank you for those kind words.
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I would be remiss not to learn from you with another important conversation. [00:48:19] So, Mercedes, what has been your experience with the current state of our nation and our world?
Mercedes Cotchery: We know what you're speaking of, but I just want to be specific. The state of our nation and our world as it relates to race relations. For me, by God's grace, I have always been around people of other ethnicities. You know, in the kindergarten. So I spent half of the kindergarten in North Carolina and the other half in Virginia.
So in North Carolina, my very best friend, my first best friend, she was an Anglo-Saxon, White. And then when I went to Virginia to finish the second half, my best friend there was Filipino. And so I've always been saturated with all different kinds of people by God's grace.
When I look out into the world, I'm grieved. [00:49:21] Again, I'm full of hope, but I'm deeply grieved. People who are not Christians, I love them and they don't grieve me. But it's the people of God who grieve me the most. Because with so much chaos and confusion going on right now, we need to be able to read scripture and allow that to resonate with us in a practical way.
But because we have taken on so many ideologies and things of the world, even professing Christians don't truly have a biblical worldview. And so when you are a professing Christian and you know scriptures, but you don't genuinely have a biblical worldview, you can't make God's word practical without a mediator. It's almost like you need another medium to explain something to you.
What I'm not saying is that we shouldn't sit down and be in community and fellowship with one another to understand what things mean. [00:50:25] Scripture is hard. But what I am saying is that you don't have to go get a sociology book to teach you how to love your neighbor. Love your neighbor is a command and we abide in our commands, which are imperatives because our indicative natures have been changed because we've been saved by Jesus.
And so if you are a Christian, you should be able to love your fellow man because skin color is such an outward adornment and it has nothing to do with who we are in Christ together. Christians are a chosen race and we are closer to one another than any other relationship.
Paul does such a remarkable job of spelling this out in his books and how he speaks about how we should have one mind. The way that he even speaks about the Father and the Son so fluently, because it's clear for him. When I look out into the world, heart is broken that most people see my skin color and they put more value in that than they do in my standing with the Lord and my heart to contend for the faith. [00:51:39]
I love people so much. When I encounter a believer, I'm not guarded. I'm so ready to pour my love out on them, invite them over, give them tea, coffee, let's have a party, let's go to the spa. But when I do that for people who feel like they need to know everything about me before, it ends up not being the way that it plays out in my head.
So my heart is just that. Christians would stop looking outwardly and stop looking at what is going on in the world and really take God at His word and trust scripture and trust that when two people are not the same ethnicity, you can have a real conversation. And the conversation, if one person is Chinese and one person is Black, or if one person is Anglo-Saxon, the other person is Black, trust that the Black person doesn't need to be the only voice in the conversation because your trust ultimately isn't in that person, your trust is in God. [00:52:49]
So if both of you have a relationship with God, trust Him. Let's work this thing out. Let's have a real conversation to see how we can be knit together all the more so that as the world is thrown into a mass amount of chaos, let us bask in the unity that we have in Christ.
We have been baptized into a collective unity. Live according to that. Our lives are not chaotic just because the world has chaos.
Laura Dugger: I think that is so beautifully said. I'm going to summarize what I heard so you can correct me where I'm wrong. But what I hear you saying is our identity at the core is either Christ follower or unbeliever. So if that is our core identity as believer or not, then the believers are the ones that you're calling to step up into a biblical accurate worldview that is global. [00:53:55] That what they look at and see is our commonality in Christ. Is that accurate for what you're saying?
Mercedes Cotchery: Yes. Sometimes we put so much emphasis and connection to our ethnic makeup. And don't get me wrong. I am so thankful to the Lord to have been born a Black American woman. I think that there are so many things that come with being Black that have benefited me in my faith.
I think that every ethnicity should find the things that God has riddled in their ethnicity to help them in their faith. But there are just so many in mine and I love it. You know, from my ancestors being slaves, you know, so that it's nothing for me to be a slave for Christ. I mean, it's beautiful to be a person of color for me because I just like to pull the good out of everything. But ultimately, my allegiance is to Christ, and so I love all of God's people. [00:54:53]
Sometimes I'm finding now that as my Anglo-Saxon or White brothers and sisters are trying to figure out what they should do, sometimes they are attaching themselves to things that really aren't biblical. You know, like the Black Lives Matter campaign. So now for me, do I think that the lives of Black people matter? I absolutely do.
Does it make me sad even sometimes when people say, well, blue lives matter, too? That does make me sad, even though the lives of police officers matter because all lives matter, you know. But my point I wanted to bring it up is that, again, as Isaiah reminds us to reason and then logic comes from reasoning, you know, as a Christian, you are supposed to view everything through a biblical lens. We are to have a biblical worldview.
And so a lot of the research and the ideologies that the Black Lives Matter campaign has comes from inductive reasoning. I personally am a deductive reasoning type of person, and it's my belief that kind of all Christians should be because deductive reasoning starts with a statement, a thesis, a belief. [00:56:00]
And so our belief is from Christ. That is our presupposition. And then from that presupposition, then we form all of our beliefs and our opinions.
Inductive reasoning does the opposite. They see something out in the world, right? For example, they see Black people being mistreated or what they believe is the mistreatment of Black people, and then they work in reverse to get to the top, to get to that thesis, to get to that statement. When you do that, it leaves God out. But you're supposed to start with God and then deduct your conclusions.
Laura Dugger: That is so well put. I feel like we could spend an entire other podcast unpacking all of the wisdom there and then the practical application. But thank you for sharing and just being able to talk about this difficult topic with biblical roots and encouraging us to start there. [00:56:59] I just say yes and amen to all of that. This time has been so enjoyable. I would love for listeners to be able to connect with you after this conversation. So where can they find and follow you online?
Mercedes Cotchery: Well, the first place that I would love for everyone to follow me is on Instagram @DesignAvenueHome, all spelled out. And that page showcases my shop. I hope that you would purchase some candles from my online candle shop.
The second place that you can find me is on my personal page on Instagram, and that's @MercedesCotchery, all spelled out. My website is Mercedes-cotchery.com. I have blogs there and some encouragement for moms.
Facebook has the same handles as Instagram for Mercedes Cotchery and Design Avenue Home. And I would love to connect with everyone. And yeah, they can send questions or anything that they like. [00:58:02]
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes and Resources tab of our website. And you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge, and we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Mercedes Cotchery: It's cheating. Let me tell you. Okay. So I'm so good at winging it and that's my secret. I don't encourage anyone to be a winger. But with speaking and all those things, it's like I can just figure things out on the go, on the fly.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Well, you are so incredibly gifted in so many areas. Mercedes, your gentleness is so attractive. I've really enjoyed this opportunity to connect with you. You are a woman living on mission and it's inspiring for each of us listening to get to do the same as we follow Jesus and fully surrender to the call He has on each of our lives. [00:59:16] So I'm very grateful to have been able to host you as my guest today.
Mercedes Cotchery: No, thank you. And I just want to say to you, you are incredibly gracious. All of the compliments that you have thrown my way, they really belong to you.
I'm just so overwhelmed by how you are unapologetically putting out good news and you're not trying to have a podcast where you're saying it's a Christian podcast and we're going to mention Jesus and we're going to mention God, but it's really something else. What a gift you are. How thankful I am to have had you give me this opportunity.
I pray that nothing will ever come in your way where it makes you waver in what you're doing. That you will never compromise truth. You have just blessed me with that. I'm just thankful to you.
I pray that all of your listeners get that from you. I pray that that's why they all actually listen, it's because when they listen to you, it's not just entertainment, it is truly godly entertainment where once they're done, they're going to be better with God. [01:00:25]
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness. I have a quivering voice and tears in my eyes. To God be the glory. Thank you, Mercedes.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [01:01:26] Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [01:02:25]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [01:03:25]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Nov 02, 2020
Monday Nov 02, 2020
*This episode includes some adult themes and is not intended for little ears*
119. Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
**Transcription Below**
Hebrews 12:1b+2a (AMP) “stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us, [looking away from all that will distract us and] focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the Author and Perfecter of faith [the first incentive for our belief and the One who brings our faith to maturity],”
Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington are clinical psychologists who met and married during their studies at the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology. They live in Pasadena, California with their two children (Samuel: 15 & Naomi: 11), where they have a group practice with the internationally recognized sex therapists Cliff and Joyce Penner.
The Symington's share a passion for helping individuals and couples move towards greater freedom, aliveness, and intimacy. Within their general practice, this passion has led to sub-specialties in marital and sex therapy; treating anxiety disorders; and integrating spirituality into the change process. In addition to their clinical work, they teach, write, and speak on a range of topics, including the key ingredients of marital passion and intimacy; and the practical application of mindfulness principles to anxious worries, destructive moods, and other barriers to happiness. Here are a couple new highlights/developments:
- Dr. Scott Symington – With the release of his recent book, Freedom from Anxious Thoughts & Feelings: A Two-Step Mindfulness Approach for Moving Beyond Fear & Worry (New Harbinger Publications 2019), Scott, in addition to his private practice, has been busy teaching, training, and presenting on his Two-Screen Method—the user-friendly-application of mindfulness featured in his book.
- Dr. Melissa Symington – Alongside her clinical work, Melissa has been publishing blogs on relational intimacy and enjoying teaching human sexuality at Fuller Graduate School of Psychology as an adjunct professor.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Freedom from Anxious Thoughts and Feelings by Dr. Scott Symington
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Episodes (Referenced During This Interview)
Episode 18: 7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Dwell is an audio Bible app our family recently discovered, and now we love it. Dwell's mission is simple: to help you get in the Word and stay in the Word. And I think that is the ultimate practical application for intentional living. Visit dwellapp.io/savvy to get a 20% discount today.
There is so much to learn from today's episode. Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington are my guests. They are both licensed clinical psychologists in Pasadena, California, and we're going to cover topics ranging from ways to live more fully alive and free, to sexual intimacy in marriage, including the role our relationships and our brains play in sex, and practical applications for enjoying our marriage more. [00:01:27]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Drs. Scott and Melissa.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Thank you. Morning.
Dr. Scott Symington: Thank you. Great to be with you.
Laura Dugger: Your story is very unique, and I'm assuming that you get asked this all the time, but how did the two of you meet?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Well, we met in graduate school at Fuller Theological Seminary. We were both pursuing our PhDs in clinical psychology. In my second year, and in Scott's first year, I was the TA. So on my very first day, I went to my room. I got there 45 minutes early, and I was going to set everything up and write my name on the board.
I walked in, and there is this dude sitting in my class. And I was so upset that he was sitting there. I just really wanted the space to get set up and to kind of set the stage and he's sitting in there. I was thoroughly annoyed with him. And of course, it was Scott. [00:02:26]
Dr. Scott Symington: In contrast, this beautiful woman walks in, and I think to myself, "This is going to be a great quarter."
Dr. Melissa Symington: We didn't start dating until way past the grades we're in, when the class was over.
Dr. Scott Symington: And then there's been a lot of life that's happened since then, because that was year...
Dr. Melissa Symington: 2000.
Dr. Scott Symington: Wow, year 2000. We have two children, Samuel and Naomi. Samuel's 15, Naomi is 11, and we're here in Pasadena, California.
We have a group practice here in Pasadena, working mainly with adults, individuals, and couples. And yeah, we've got a full life here, including being very involved in our church, La Cañada Presbyterian Church.
A lot of life has happened since that first encounter, where we had very different experiences internally. But we did sort of get on the same page shortly after.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: I love that story. It makes me wonder, as you think back and reflect on your time spent at Fuller, how do you think we can move toward more freedom, aliveness, and fulfillment in life? [00:03:34]
Dr. Scott Symington: I love those words, freedom and aliveness. We have a plaque that's framed in our home by St. Irenaeus of Lyons. Maybe you're familiar with it. It's "the glory of God is the human person fully alive." I love that quote. It moves me.
It's interesting, right, because we were designed to fully express who God envisioned us to be. We're wired a particular way. And I believe that we're called to move towards, and as best as we can, fully express who He designed us to be. But there's all these barriers. One big barrier and a subspecialty of ours is worry and anxiety.
What happens is, in life, we want to settle a lot of things. Like we want to feel safe, secure, have certainty, have everything in its proper place before we move forward in life in a purposeful, meaningful way. [00:04:39]
So, let's say, when it comes to worry and anxiety, and we're in a space of, what if I fail, or I disappoint someone, or there's so much uncertainty in the world right now, we tend to go away in our minds and brood and ruminate, seeking a kind of control and security that sometimes can't be had.
When, in my mind, where the true freedom and aliveness really kicks in is when we learn the very difficult art of moving forward, even when we feel afraid. Keeping our eyes on God and our values and the best parts of who we are, even when there's all these distractions out there and things that feel unsettled.
Dr. Melissa Symington: We are so easily distracted by so many different things and oftentimes we don't know what to pay attention to. We have kind of jumbled ideas. Sometimes things come into our head that we weren't expecting or, you know, worry us. And we feel this pull to attend to whatever is happening around us, whether it's in our head or in our environment. And sometimes we feel like we're all over the place. [00:05:57]
Real freedom is about knowing how to focus our attention on what is life-giving, what gives us the most value, our faith, and then allowing those things to pull us forward or to anchor us.
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah, this idea which we see throughout the Old Testament, of God reminding his people to choose life. Right? There's that very prominent theme.
I believe one of the ways that we choose life is where we put the spotlight of attention. Like our attention, our mind is always somewhere. And we've been endowed with this freedom, this gift. And it's a powerful gift of placing attention on the object of our choosing.
And that spotlight of attention, like if we go away in our mind and we put it on a concern, a worry, we give energy to that worry and it becomes stronger and more pronounced in our internal world. [00:06:57] But alternatively, we can rotate that spotlight of attention to the things above and seeking God's presence and who He's called us to be the present moment, our values.
So this idea of being aware of where we're placing our attention and cultivating the things that are more life-giving that lead to aliveness and freedom.
Laura Dugger: This often happens during interviews where the guest will just bring scripture to life in my mind. And the Lord is in his kindness this morning had me in Hebrews 12. And I feel like you two are just communicating this message.
I'm just going to read a portion of two of these verses from Hebrews 12, 1, and 2 in the Amplified version. It says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who by faith have testified to the truth of God's absolute faithfulness], stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us, looking away from all that will distract us and focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the author and perfecter of faith, the first incentive for our belief and the one who brings our faith to maturity. [00:08:26]
Dr. Scott Symington: That is absolutely spot on. Our internal worlds are a pretty busy place. And sometimes it's hard to separate out the more destructive thoughts and feelings from the more life-giving ones. Right? I think conceptually, most people are on the same page. It's a question of application, though.
It's like so when someone is in a distracted state or feels anxious, they're worried or there's an unhealthy temptation, for a lot of people, they're still somewhat lost in terms of what do I do on the inside in those moments to make that potentially destructive stimuli less powerful? And how do I stay tethered to that which offers life that I'm called to?
It's been a fascinating journey. But eventually what I developed is something called the two-screen method, which helps you quickly organize your internal world and separate out those destructive thoughts and feelings off on a side screen, and then giving you anchors or tethers to stay more connected to the front screen, which is the present moment and God's presence and the best version of self and these different internal experiences that translate into a sense of well-being. [00:09:48]
Laura Dugger: Yes. Scott, could you elaborate on that and maybe give us an example of what that may look like for the two-screen method?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yes. So it's based on an image that depicts your internal world. You imagine your internal world as a movie theater with two screens. Imagine walking into a dimly lit movie theater and kind of go up the stairs and settle into a seat. Right? And so straight ahead, you're looking at the front screen.
The front screen is where you experience the present moment and the more life-giving thoughts, feelings, images, the best version of yourself. That's where the cross is. So all of that internal stuff of life that translates into a sense of well-being. It doesn't mean life is perfect, but you're generally in a good space.
But the challenge is, in our movie theater, there is a second screen off to the right, a side screen. [00:10:48] The side screen is where the threats, fears, worries, insecurities, dark moods, and unhealthy temptations show up.
A classic way that that side screen can show up in our life is you're leaving a really awkward social interaction and you're trying to live the good life, stay attuned to the front screen. And as you're leaving that interaction, the side screen lights up and your internalized reflexively swivel over to take a look, and scrolling across that side screen is, uh, such a stupid thing to say.
And then we go away in our minds, typically in these situations, and we start unpacking the social tapes on the side screen. OK, what I said, what they said, it's kicking off some insecure, anxious heat. Right?
And as we stay parked in front of the side screen, those thoughts and feelings in that side screen, it gets larger and more pronounced. And before you know it, it's an IMAX theater with Dolby surround sound and it's very difficult to rotate back to the front screen. [00:11:54]
So the two-screen method shows you how to relate to the side screen in a way where it will fade into the background and have less power and presence in your life while giving you anchors on the front screen to stay more tethered to that which offers life.
I mean, I'm giving you a very brief synopsis here because, you know, the book that I wrote features this method and has a chapter on each aspect of the method. But that's a little overview.
Laura Dugger: That is incredibly helpful. And yes, the book can unpack all of that methodology much further. But let's zero in on marriages now. How do you think that we can identify our own unhealthy relationship patterns and then begin to pursue healthier options?
Dr. Scott Symington: The first step is raising self-awareness and taking inventory of what your painful emotional triggers are. [00:12:54] We come into marriage with a history. And in that history we all carry pain and woundedness and longings. And all of that stuff gets kicked up when we're in an intimate relationship.
So instead of attributing it all to the other person, to the spouse, it's important to understand where it's getting supercharged from one's history.
Dr. Melissa Symington: I really resonate with restoration therapy, that model, their pain cycle, peace cycle. The idea that all of us enter into a relationship with history of something that's painful and then we also cope. So we either blame someone else for our pain. We shame ourselves for pain. Like, it's my fault because there's something really wrong with me. We try to control other people or the situation or our pain by various ways, perfectionism, etc. Or we escape. [00:13:56]
So there's lots of coping that we do alongside of painful triggers. And so identifying our feelings and then what do we do when we have feelings that we don't like, feeling unloved or feeling disrespected, feeling unseen? Do we have a coping strategy that we automatically go to? Do we start to blame the other person or self-shame or control or escape?
Usually figuring out that kind of pattern — again, there's a lot to this theory, I'm just kind of giving you the bare bones — when we're in a relationship, a marriage, or even relationships with others, parents, children, whatever it is that we do to cope usually triggers pain in the other person and then they cope. And so the pain cycle is a series of pain, coping, pain, and coping.
So being able to identify feelings. Being able to say, what do I feel? What do I do when I feel painful feelings? [00:14:57] How do I cope with them? What are the unhealthy ways that I cope with painful feelings? What else could I do instead of doing this thing like yelling and screaming, let's say, because I felt unloved? I don't want to do that.
So this is where you move from the pain cycle to the peace cycle. The truth is I know you love me or the truth is I know that I'm loved. The truth is I know I can control myself. I can control how I treat you. And then I follow that truth with an action. So I'm going to listen or I'm going to go on a walk or I'm going to do something else.
Laura Dugger: So, Melissa, it sounds like moving into that healthier place would require making the covert overt, so doing some self-work and then communicating that. And is there a next step then that a listener could apply?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes. Identifying the pain cycle is the first step, but then also identifying a peace cycle. [00:15:58] So identifying what do I know that is true? So even my feelings come and go. I mean, they're valid. Feelings are valid, but they're not the truth. The truth is something that's separate.
So a truth statement might be God loves me or I am lovable or I can control myself or something like that. And then following up with an action step. So here's the truth and here are actions that follow from the truth. I can be patient. I can be kind. I can be loving.
Dr. Scott Symington: One thing I would add is that, with this model, you're fire-drilling this in advance with a couple. Each spouse is aware of the other's pain cycle and what they're trying to do in the peace cycle. So it's almost like they're alerted, Okay, here we go. This is the protocol. Right?
So, you know, when somebody is verbalizing their pain cycle and their intention of doing something new, then the other spouse is prepared to offer the new healing response. [00:17:00] Ideally, this takes practice and it's messy. But, you know, you're moving towards life and more of a peace cycle and peace more of the time. Right?
No relationship is free of any conflict or hurt. Even when it's healthy, there's going to be some of that. But it's more and more peace and less and less being captured by each other's pain cycles.
Dr. Melissa Symington: There will always be bumps. There will always be conflict. We're human people. But being able to recognize, "Oh, we're in our pain cycle. Oh, I see what's happening here." So it's that ability to quickly identify "I see what's happening inside of myself or in me. I see what's happening relationally between us."
One suggestion is to write it on three-by-five cards and kind of put it all over the house so you have reminders. So it does take a lot of practice. It's not about perfection. It's about practicing this idea of moving toward repair.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. [00:18:00]
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Laura Dugger: What are some ideals you two are pursuing?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Marriage is about growth, always. And so for us, our relationship has always been a work in progress. When we first got married in graduate school, you know, the first couple of years of our marriage were rocky.
We were in graduate school. We both were in pretty intense individual therapy. We were trying to learn how to be married and live with one another. [00:20:01] But we were going after the hard stuff.
Dr. Scott Symington: We flushed it all out right in the beginning.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Right in the beginning. We really, really kind of went after the things that we needed to go after. So for us, it was about learning how to find our stride, that we needed to learn how to live and be in relationship, learn how to repair.
Again, this is something we have to learn over and over again in our marriage. And as soon as we kind of hit our stride in our first couple of years of marriage, we were ready to have kids. And then we had to find a new stride because we were now new parents.
So just our ideals have always been, we're in a new season, there's something new to learn here, remain humble, seek growth, seek repair, and kind of move forward from that, which has been a good pattern, especially now that we've found ourselves in a global pandemic and during this time where everything has changed. And so we have to figure out a new way forward. [00:21:01]
Dr. Scott Symington: Oh, and just on a parenting note, even though we're both clinical psychologists, we struggle just like every other parent in trying to figure out what is best for each of their kids and how to create the right environment at home. And I don't think you ever quite get there.
A sign of this is actually we're currently running the August Symington Boot Camp at home. Trying to get our kids ready for the school in fall. Because there's a lot of bad habits that have been developed over the last several months. Way too much screen time. Inactivity.
Every day right now, thinking about body, mind, and soul, everybody has to do a couple of meaningful, purposeful activities that fall under each of those categories, for their body, for their mind, and for the soul. And we get sort of a report from each of our kids at the end.
By the way, we don't normally run our household this way. We're sort of doing this as a very specific intervention to get things in order. [00:22:03]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Well, it's an illustration of what I was talking about. We've been in a season of quarantine, a season of global pandemic, a season of, you know, we don't know what's going to happen. And this is lots of us, right? All of us. And we've had to refocus. We've had to say, That doesn't work. What do we do now?
Dr. Scott Symington: I do want to say one thing about our relationship and kind of early on. Melissa and I left no stone unturned early on because of how we're wired individually in the field that we're in. And what you would normally end up addressing over 15 or 20 years, we basically condensed that into about a year and a half.
And I remember the moment when we were in kind of a tense conversation, which felt pretty familiar. I would relate it to a pain cycle. And we looked at each other and smiled. And it was the turning point. It was like, hey there, we're not as activated by this anymore, and transcending some of those pain cycles. [00:23:14] And then that really just set the stage for just a very close, loving relationship that we have held ever since.
Dr. Melissa Symington: And not that we haven't had fights or not that we haven't had-
Dr. Scott Symington: It's been perfect.
Dr. Melissa Symington: It's that we recognize we can repair. We can repair. Over and over again, we come to this place of something is painful or we have to have a hard conversation or we need to look at something. And we know from experience, we can repair. We can move forward.
Laura Dugger: It makes me think our friends David and Lisa Frisbie are authors and they wrote something that they encourage couples of any age: But a little drama now saves trauma later. And I think you two modeled that by really leaning in. It may have felt a little bit more dramatic in the beginning as you worked through these issues but it saved you from so much trauma later on in marriage. [00:24:15]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes.
Dr. Scott Symington: Well said.
Laura Dugger: And listeners may find it interesting that you two work with another couple who specializes in Christian sex therapy. Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner. And they've actually been repeat guests on The Savvy Sauce. So I'll certainly link to those episodes in today's show notes. But I would love to know, what are some of the main takeaways that you two have learned over time from your partnership with the Penners?
Dr. Scott Symington: The Penners are amazing.
Dr. Melissa Symington: They're wonderful, wonderful people.
Dr. Scott Symington: We love them so much. And there are many takeaways. A couple right off the top of my head. One is, they're such a beautiful example that if you are open, like if you preserve a childlike openness to life and where God takes you, life becomes this just incredible adventure and journey. [00:25:14]
I mean, their story is remarkable. And part of it is because they have been so available for the journey, for the unexpected stuff of life. And it really it's amazing. So to be connected to them and witness the unfolding, the continuous unfolding of their life and experiences, it really is amazing and inspiring and faith-giving.
The other piece that stands out is just how powerful sex therapy is and that good marital therapy in many ways needs to include this physical intimacy piece, like have a sex therapy component to it. If you really want to get in there and address the deepest stuff, it's a very, very important component.
So even when couples come to see us that don't have a sexual issue per se that they want to address, it's always in the mix now. And I feel like we just do much better clinical work because of this training and because of the Penner's influence and model. [00:26:25]
Dr. Melissa Symington: And I would add what I've learned from them and working with them is just the importance about teaching about healthy sexuality, whether that's working with clients, working with couples or even individuals.
But also I'm an adjunct professor at Fuller and I get to teach the human sexuality course to the MFT students. So these are students who are training to become therapists. And what I always say at the very beginning of the class, Hey, you might not want to go into sex therapy. This might feel very uncomfortable for you as a therapist. You might think, this is not what I'm signing up for in terms of talking about these types of issues with people I'm going to work with.
But if I allow myself as a therapist to grow in this area, to open myself up as a clinician, that this is such an important gift I can give clients that if I'm open and I'm willing, if I know this area and I have some knowledge here about healthy sexuality, that my clients want to talk about this. [00:27:37] They don't have a place to go with any of this information. There's no one to talk to about this kind of stuff. And therapy is the perfect place to talk to.
But if you're a therapist who's kind of closed down about sexual issues, they won't have that opportunity. And so, you know, it's about comfortability. So we're going to talk about all these issues. And the more comfortable we can become talking about this in this class and understanding these issues, the more comfortable you're going to be in your person. And when you're sitting there with clients, they'll be able to tell.
So case in point, when we started working with the Penners, we both finished our PhDs. We had worked with clients before, but it wasn't until we got that extra training in sex therapy where we felt more comfortable talking about sexual issues.
Because even as PhDs who are married and had children, you know, you think we talk about uncomfortable issues all the time where, you know, we're therapists. Surely we could talk about sexual issues. But until you actually kind of go there and open yourself up to it, we discovered that it was hard for us to even talk about it. [00:28:43]
So for my students, I encourage them like this is an area where if we just open ourselves up to healthy sexuality, talking about what healthy sexuality looks like, we will be giving our clients a gift. They'll be able to tell, I can talk to my therapist about these issues. So that's kind of what we've learned from the Penners. Lots of things.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. What can you teach us about the neuroscience and the role it plays in intimacy?
Dr. Scott Symington: Dan Siegel at UCLA in interpersonal neurobiology is doing some really interesting work. It's interdisciplinary and they call it interpersonal neurobiology. And it's all about how we are wired for relationships and intimacy and how relationships change our brain.
We can do brain imaging and see how intimate relationships and friendships can actually have an impact neurobiologically. So it gives a whole new meaning to that saying, you know, choose your friends wisely. [00:29:52] I mean, obviously, choose your spouse wisely as well, because we change each other's brains.
You know, one interesting facet of that is the discovery of mirror neurons, how are our brains react to the things that we see in the other. So if I were to see you pick up an object, there is a part of my brain related to that action that would light up just me visually seeing you do it. So we are so linked even sort of neurobiologically. There's this back and forth.
Dr. Melissa Symington: We're talking about physical intimacy. I mean, I don't like to separate out physical intimacy from emotional intimacy or spiritual intimacy. I think all those things go together. They hang together.
True intimacy is when all those things are kind of lined up. But when we're talking about all those things, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, and physical intimacy can have these positive kind of neurochemical effects on us and each other in terms of oxytocin, feeling bonded, feeling close. [00:30:59] That's the cuddle hormone.
But what's interesting is people like to separate out the physical part or the sexual part. And it's interesting because when we first get to know someone, when we're first dating someone, there's that intense attraction that we feel.
And when we feel that intense attraction, we have all kinds of really awesome brain cocktail happening. Right? We have dopamine, which is all the feel-good chemicals. We have adrenaline because it's new. So dopamine and adrenaline together just kind of boost up this kind of excitement that we have when we're first dating someone.
What's interesting is that people love this part of dating, this part of engagement, this part of this new part of the relationship because it feels so good. And it's also linked to that kind of fantasy part. We don't really know that person that we're just starting to date or even as we are getting engaged. [00:32:03] We don't know what it's like to live with them. We don't know what it's like. So we're kind of running on this kind of cocktail.
Our brain cannot sustain that level of dopamine and adrenaline. It usually decreases around 6 to 24 months after any brand-new relationship. So we think about that in terms of people dating, getting engaged and getting married.
Once we've crossed over into marriage, we're past this point where the brain can even kind of sustain this high level of adrenaline and dopamine. And so people come into our offices all the time and say, "You know, I want to feel the way I felt when we first were together. Or I want to feel how I felt when we were dating. It was so exciting. I couldn't wait to be with that person. I couldn't wait to touch them or I couldn't wait to do this or that. You know, everything they said was fun and funny and exciting, and now I'm annoyed by this person."
The change we believe is it's a movement from intense attraction to attachment. And attachment is all about covenant. Attachment is about I choose you. Attachment is I'm in this with you. Good, bad, and the ugly. Okay, that's not fantasy, that's reality. [00:33:24]
So even though the dopamine and the adrenaline kind of start to decrease, we have to make this movement into oxytocin, where we choose intention, and loving each other is a value versus a feeling. So moving into that is where I believe true intimacy begins.
Intimacy doesn't happen in the beginning stages when we're on a high and we feel so wonderful with our soon-to-be spouse. True intimacy is the gritty, is the raw, is the hard. And it is in that space where we learn and grow. And it doesn't mean it can't be wonderful or pleasurable, but it requires intention.
Laura Dugger: And then as couples are together longer, you're right, it's been proven over time that dopamine and adrenaline will decrease and it will feel very different. But then it's fascinating to hear from couples who have been married such a long time. I would say even more wonderful feelings and experiences come from that intimacy. [00:34:31]
And looking at the brain, would that be more with the oxytocin and serotonin over time that is more sustainable? And you can't overdose on those like you can on dopamine and adrenaline.
Dr. Scott Symington: The answer is yes. And I would add one other piece. Yeah, there's the oxytocin, the serotonin.
There also is the history of that dopamine-laden relationship, which can get activated. It just doesn't sustain itself at that same level of intensity. So they've done brain imaging experiments like Helen Singer and others where even with couples, long term couples that express being in love, you know, when they're showed images of the other person, whatever, that there is more dopamine activation than for a stranger, let's say. So it's not like it's totally absent. It's just not at the same level.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah. And people want that. It's got a shelf life. [00:35:32] It's still there but now we have to put in the intention. We have to put in the work. There is a richness that goes with sticking it out and together being bonded in good times and in bad times.
You know, oxytocin is released when we hug, when we kiss. It's released when women are breastfeeding. It's released when men are holding their babies and bottle feeding and looking into their infant's eyes. So this is all about we're bonded. We're a family. We're together. We're in this.
And so allowing that to take the lead, I have covenanted with you and I am in this with you. So it takes intention.
Laura Dugger: And so two quick follow-ups on that. Is oxytocin also in the marital relationship? Is our brain kind of bathed in that through eye contact as well, like if we're connecting through eye contact or conversation with eye contact? [00:36:33]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes. I use the example of putting a hand on the shoulder and looking into someone's eyes. This happens with friends. This is like fellowship. But even as spouses, we need this level of bonding. We need this non-sexual way of bonding. So what's fascinating is oxytocin shows up, is released when we look into each other's eyes, when we hug. So when we move more into kind of passionate, like kissing, when we hold hands, it's released at orgasm.
So it is released throughout our ways of physically showing affection and love and care, which again is always connected to our emotional and spiritual parts too. It creates a baseline of we're attached. We're in this together. And it's very calming. What it does is it soothes any kind of anxiety. It helps to regulate our bodies.
So, neurochemically, oxytocin is a great co-regulator. So when we have stress, we have high levels of cortisol, oxytocin is one very helpful way of calming our bodies. [00:37:40]
You know, touch is the first language of love. We learn that when we're infants. You know, when we cry, we get picked up, we get cuddled. We're held close when we're fed. Again, whether that's through the breast or a bottle. You know, someone's holding us gently and looking into our eyes.
That first year of life there's a lot of touch that's happening. There's a lot of care that's communicated through touch. And we have to recognize that that's very important in our marital life as well. To remember that language of love through touch, through eye contact, through holding each other, through looking into each other's eyes, and then all the way up through the sexual relationship.
Laura Dugger: And this may not be the main area of focus for a married couple but you alluded to the fact that we can recall those dopamine feelings. So could you give any really practical examples of how that occurs?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. [00:38:39] So you've had the Penners on your show a couple of times. I imagine they've talked about the Penners formula for intimacy that they recommend for couples. Holding each other, kissing for five to 30 seconds every day.
There are certain intimacy rituals that a couple can practice that activate or keep that historical network going. But again, it's not going to be at the same level as the honeymoon period. But it does keep it kind of more available and part of the relationship. So it's investing in different intimacy rituals that help bring that network online and keep it there.
Dr. Melissa Symington: I think for us personally, when we talk about the early days... So for Scott and I, when we talk about, remember when we were first dating and remember when, you know, we always laugh because we're like, we were so stupid back then. There's so much we didn't know. We've grown so much. I can't imagine us being the same way we were in the past. [00:39:43]
But that still does kick up those feelings, that dopamine and the adrenaline because it's a part of our story in a fun and funny way. And then we can also laugh at it and say, but that wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. Or that's a part of our story, but look at the rest of our story. Look at how much we've been through. Look how much we've grown.
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And as it relates to the sexual part of marriage, what is something that you two wish every couple listening could learn to freely enjoy with their spouse?
Dr. Melissa Symington: I think mainly I always like to say that intimacy is not sex and sex is not intimacy. Sex is an important part of intimacy, but it's not the whole thing. It's not the whole picture.
So keeping in mind that the emotional and spiritual parts of intimacy and physical intimacy are really important. Physical intimacy doesn't mean sex. Physical intimacy means all the ways we use touch to show care and love and support and closeness.
What I want people to know is that everybody struggles with sexual issues. We know from research that 45% to 50% of all individuals and couples report, at some point in their life, some kind of sexual problem or dysfunction. And we know that's what's just reported. [00:41:48] So if it's that high, it's 45% to 50% of what's reported. You know that it's much higher than that.
So sexual issues are very prominent in our culture, in the church, too, because we have so many cultural myths and problems communicating about sex. We have unrealistic expectations and historical hurt and misinformation. And that kind of keeps us in this very stagnant pool because we think everybody else has a great sex life except for us or nobody else seems to be having a problem. But I have a problem.
I guess I want listeners to know that everybody, everyone is kind of swimming in the same waters unless they are going after healthy sexuality intentionally.
The six building blocks — these are kind of like a DNA structure, they all kind of hang together, they're not totally separate — include integration. That means that healthy sexuality is about being a whole person. [00:42:48] We don't separate it out from our spiritual side or other aspects of ourself.
I use the Great Commandment to illustrate that, that we're supposed to give God all of who we are. We're not supposed to split ourselves up. And likewise, we give all of who we are to our spouse.
So integration is important, making sure that sex is a part of who we are as a person and we acknowledge it, that our body is good, that it goes together with our spiritual aspects of self.
We have to have correct information. So integration, information. That means we need to root out anything that is not true, any myths that we've picked up along the way. Where did we get our information from? We have to ask ourselves good questions.
Number three is communication. We need to be able to talk about sex with our spouse. We have to talk about sex with our kids. We have to talk about sex in our church. We have to be able to be more open about talking about that sex is a gift and is good from God, and how do we steward that. [00:43:52]
Fourthly, mutuality, that sex is not something that... it's not a commodity or a battle of needs. It's not power used over someone, but it's a balanced way of caring for the other. Sex is about connection. It's deeply relational.
And then lastly, a healthy sex life or healthy sexuality always includes relaxation, meaning it needs to be free from anxiety. It needs to be safe. So those building blocks, again, are integration, information, communication, mutuality, connection, and relaxation.
So I know I just said a whole lot, but I just feel like that is so important for people to know that healthy sexuality takes intention. It takes time. It takes work.
Laura Dugger: That was incredibly helpful. Another really common area of frustration in marriage can be desire discrepancy. [00:44:52] So could you speak to both the high-desire spouse and the low-desire spouse?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. So, in the honeymoon phase of the relationship, usually there's a lot of sexual desire, mutual sexual desire, and strong attraction. But then once you move out of the honeymoon period, the discrepancy in sexual desire between spouses is revealed, right? Because it's never 50-50 exactly.
I mean, usually it's more like 70-30 or 80-20. But that imbalance in sexual desire was covered up early on in the relationship. And so once the relationship matures, the discrepancy is revealed, and that's where problems begin in the physical intimacy department.
Because pressure and demand is often introduced there, even if it's not intentional, right? So the lower-desire spouse maybe feels guilty or is confused why they're not as interested. [00:45:58] And then they're kind of moving into that category of what we would call duty sex, which is less than ideal, or they're feeling pressure and demand. Then the party with higher sexual desire may feel undesired and also be confused that the spouse is not as interested in them. So there's this whole dynamic that begins there.
And so when you perceive that your partner is interested in sex, there's really three primary responses that you could have. His or her desire could activate your desire. So desire meets desire and the two go to the bedroom and there's no issue, right? That's when it works seamlessly.
You perceiving that your partner is interested could activate a sense of duty where you're feeling pressure and demand and it's really not a great fulfilling experience for you. You're doing it more out of obligation. It's more like a job.
But God has given us a third option. [00:47:05] This is where we're helping couples in sex therapy a lot. And that is the decision category. So if you perceive that your spouse is interested, ideally there is freedom in the relationship to not go in that direction where either you're not consumed by guilt or feeling.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Not ashamed.
Dr. Scott Symington: You're not ashamed or feeling pressured by the other. So you have freedom to make a different choice or to put up a boundary. So even though in the moment you may not be interested, this is the decision category, you say to yourself, "Huh, I'm not really feeling it right now, but I'm open to moving in that direction."
And that's not signing a contract for intercourse. That's just moving in that direction, knowing that you have the freedom as you start engaging in pillow talking or it's just some casual caressing to just let it be that. Or it might go further and turn it into hot sex. [00:48:08] I mean, and there's a kind of an openness for both parties around trusting the unfolding and making sure there isn't pressure and demand.
A lot of healthy sex is happening in this decision category where on the front end, one spouse and sometimes both spouses aren't experiencing a lot of sexual desire. But when they feel freed up and then they start connecting and relaxing, the engine gets up and running and then they're surprised by the sexual desire and arousal that kicks in.
Laura Dugger: That is so well said. If you two could only share one more thing about intimacy or deepening enjoyment in marriage, what would you like to say?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Sexual intimacy or sexual relating, there should only be three goals. The goal should be pleasure and touch, emotional connection, and relaxation. [00:49:08] And it should never be orgasm because as soon as there's some pressure or goal to have an orgasm, then everything kind of goes out the window in terms of there's going to be performance anxiety and other issues.
So that would be the sexual part, I think, or relationally, I think just intentionality, continuing to move towards one another with curiosity and openness to growth.
Dr. Scott Symington: I'm just echoing that. Like all important things in life, your relationship, physical intimacy, it takes time and investment. It's not something that just happens on its own that may occur in the honeymoon stage. But once you're out of that, it's something that you need to be cultivating and working on, and then it bears fruit.
Laura Dugger: Well, Scott and Melissa, there is so much more to talk about. We could talk about this all day. But if listeners want to learn more from you, where would you direct them? [00:50:12]
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah, going to our website, drsymington.com. There are a lot of resources there.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Resources in terms of sexual intimacy, but also just marital intimacy, Scott and I are a part of the Relate Strong team, which comes out of the Boone Center at Pepperdine. And it's a group of mental health professionals, researchers who help write and speak to pastors.
So they have resources when they're sharing in their pulpits. But if you go to the Boone Center, Pepperdine, the Boone Center, there's an eBook that you can download. We have a section in there that talks about sexual intimacy, but there are sections on just the pain and peace cycle that we were talking about earlier.
Also, a great resource would be Scott's book, which is Freedom from Anxious Thoughts and Feelings. And that book is a very helpful tool. [00:51:15] It talks about the two screens, but it's a book about mindfulness, but it's very easy to understand, helpful.
Dr. Scott Symington: Just a user-friendly application of those principles. Because when it comes to physical intimacy in marriages, we have side screens, right? And there's a lot of, even if you want to go right at the physical intimacy, noise in the bedroom. So things that are potential distractors from the present moment and connecting with the other.
So, yeah, it gets into the two-screen method and how to separate out and make less powerful those distractions and problematic thoughts and feelings that we're always contending with.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will certainly link to all of that in both our show notes and on our Resources tab of our website. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for the two of you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:52:17]
Dr. Scott Symington: So one thing that we do with all the couples that we see that's made a huge difference is what we refer to as the loving action list. That is having each spouse spend some time listing at least 30 ways that they feel loved, valued, respected, and cared for in the relationship. And those could be things that are happening or have happened in the relationship or they wish that would occur.
The key thing, though, about making this list be effective is translating, let's say, an idea of when he adores me into concrete behavioral action. So a fly on the wall could spot a loving action taking place. So instead of it being an abstract concept, it's a very specific behavior. When he tells me I'm beautiful, you know, when she sends me a text in the middle of the day, when he initiates a date night. So- [00:53:25]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Concrete.
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. Because that's the key thing. Because then what happens is once you get that master list, then spouses can swap lists and then you have in your possession a bullseye list and how your partner is loved.
We encourage couples to just look at that list periodically throughout the week and act on one of those. Some of them don't take a lot of time. Some of them maybe are a little bit higher level. But just each spouse, you know, having in their possession really a way of loving the other. It has a profound effect on couples.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah. These are small ways to show love, but they're so effective because it's the small things that add up. It's like putting money in a bank. So then you have a reserve to draw on when you do hit those bumps.
So you have ways to look at something and identify how loved you are or how to care for your spouse. And I love it because it's a menu of options. [00:54:28] Scott and I have a list. I look at my list all the time. So even though we're psychologists and we teach these things and we talk to couples about it, we also use this as a tool. It's very helpful.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. You two are just incredible teachers. It's been fascinating to hear from such a talented couple who are both in love with each other and the work they get to do. So thank you for sharing your expertise with us today. And thank you for being my guests.
Dr. Scott Symington: Laura, great being with you.
Laura Dugger: Yes, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:55:28]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:30]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:36] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 26, 2020
Monday Oct 26, 2020
118. Parenting All Temperaments with Jenny Boyett
**Transcription Below**
1 Thessalonians 5:11 (NIV) "Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.”
Jenny Boyett is the mom to four daughters (three of them triplets!) She has served at North Point Ministries, a network of churches in the Atlanta area, for over 17 years helping connect adults into small groups. She currently serves in North Point’s publishing ministry supporting authors and inspiring leaders with faith-based content. When she’s not shuttling her three teenage triplets around, Jenny’s dreaming about her next Joanna Gaines-inspired home project. She’s a graduate of Georgia Southern University, a huge proponent of counseling, and a raving fan of The Bachelorette.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
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Other Savvy Sauce Podcast Episodes Mentioned
72 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 1 with Kathleen Edelman
73 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 2 with Kathleen Edelman
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Our sponsor for this episode is Plan to Eat. Make sure you check out their app today or visit their website. Savvy Sauce listeners get a 60-day free trial that requires no payment information when they visit plantoeat.com/savvy.
Jenny Boyett is my upbeat and helpful guest for today. Her ministry and parenting experience allows her to speak wisdom into all our interactions with our own children who are either similar or different from us.
Temperaments are with us for life, so this episode will be helpful to any parents, ranging from first-time parents of newborns to empty nesters with adult children. I hope you discover beneficial ideas to apply to your own family after concluding this conversation.
Here's our chat. [00:01:19]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Thank you so much. It's an honor to be with you.
Laura Dugger: We would love first just to have a glimpse of who you are and what you do.
Jenny Boyett: Well, I am a mom to four daughters, three of them being triplets. They're 16 years old and then one 10-year-old. I live in Alpharetta, Georgia, and I have been working at North Point Community Church and within North Point Ministries for the last 18 years. I never thought I'd work at a church, and now I work there for 18 years. So it's a lot of fun and I enjoy just getting to be at the local church level and also help other churches around the country.
Laura Dugger: You've also become interested in working with temperaments. So how did you originally get into all of that?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, goodness, yes. Well, when my triplets were about eight years old and my youngest was two, life got pretty crazy. I needed help. [00:02:19] And I had heard about this temperament coach, Kathleen Edelman, out there, and I just knew that I needed to meet her.
So I started emailing her and it was hard to get an appointment, but I was hoping that she would be able to fix my girls. I finally got an appointment and then I quickly realized that I was the one that probably needed fixing. Because she met with me and she met with the girls and she met then with each of them individually, and she said, "They are delightful, but I think you and I should spend some time together."
And that kind of started my journey over the last eight years of learning about the temperaments, kind of being Kathleen's understudy, if you will, and just learning them as a parent, but also as an employee, an employer, that kind of thing. It's just been so life-changing.
I see how powerful understanding your own wiring and that of your kids or your co-workers can be. And so it's just something I'm super passionate about. [00:03:18]
Laura Dugger: Well, we have had the pleasure of meeting with Kathleen as well. Back in episodes 72 and 73, we covered these temperaments in depth. I'll put these easy links in the show notes for anyone who's interested in listening to those.
But today we are going to go a different direction to understand the temperaments specifically as they relate to parenting. So just to get started, will you give us a quick overview of the four temperaments?
Jenny Boyett: Absolutely. I've been doing this for the last several years, but I would love for the people to listen that didn't listen to Kathleen's podcast because she for sure is the expert in this, but I can tell you my practical experience along the way.
But the overview of the temperaments are there are four temperaments. They have the Greek names, but we refer to them as colors just because it's a little bit easier. So we have the sanguine, which is yellow, we have the choleric that's red, the melancholy that's blue and the phlegmatic that's green. [00:04:19]
And if you think of them on a chart and you think the top chart is yellow and red and the bottom chart is green and blue, the yellow and red, the top two, they are extroverts. And what that means is their thoughts and emotions go outward. So those are the people that may talk before they think and say, "Oops, I didn't mean to say that."
The bottom quadrant, green and blue, they're more introverted. What I love about this is that it just means that their thoughts and emotions go inward. It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't want to be around people. It just means that they are more internal processors. And that's real important when you think of the green for this next part that I'm going to share with you because I have a green daughter. So this was very insightful to me.
If you then are still looking at that chart and now on the left side of the chart you have the yellow at the top and the green at the bottom, those are very people-focused. So their first thought is, how do people feel? [00:05:20] What are people doing? Just very focused on people.
On the right side, when you have the red and the blue, their first thought is the task. So they're going to choose a task over a person any day of the week. And so what's interesting about that is the greens kind of can get lost because they are introverted people people. I have a daughter that's that way. And so kind of understanding this and understanding what she was processing, because she liked to be around people, but she was just super quiet, it was really helpful in being able to parent her and guide her on her route.
Then it's also important to know that most people or all people have a dominant and a secondary. So you will have usually one that is dominant and then you will have one that is either across or down. You don't usually go diagonal.
So in the quadrant that I was talking about, most people would be a yellow-red or a yellow-green, you would be a red-yellow or a red-blue, you could be a green-yellow or a green-blue, or you would be a blue-red or a blue-green. [00:06:28] Most people are not yellow-blue or blue-yellow or red-green, green-red, just because you would be a kind of opposite of yourself. And it would be really difficult on you if that is you.
Laura Dugger: That's super helpful to get the overview. Will you also share what your temperament is with the primary and secondary and also each of your daughters?
Jenny Boyett: Yes, I will. We have a little bit of everything. I am yellow-red. And then my triplets, I have Addie, Riley, and McKenna. So Addie, the firstborn, is red-blue. And then my second daughter, Riley, she is green-yellow. And then my third daughter, McKenna, is yellow-red. And then my fourth daughter, Skylar, is red-yellow.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. I think that'll help lay the foundation. There are nuances of each temperament. So will you explain how does that secondary color impact the way each temperament manifests itself? [00:07:33]
Jenny Boyett: Usually, somebody's dominant you'll be able to tell unless they're a real 50-50 split. But knowing this and knowing what their secondary makes a big difference. As a parent, I did not realize my firstborn, Addie, was... I knew she was a red, but I had gone back and forth on her secondary being yellow or blue until she got her permit. And I'll explain more about this. But you're like, yeah, yellow and blue is opposite. And it's like, yeah, it is.
So somebody that is a yellow-red versus a yellow-green. A yellow-red is going to have a little bit more decisiveness to them. They're going to be able to naturally go into leading a project if there isn't somebody already leading it. They're going to step up to lead a little bit more so than someone who is a yellow-green.
A yellow-green is going to be really go-with-the-flow, less decisive than a yellow-red. [00:08:33] A yellow-red will be a little bit more like, you know, "Oh, what do you want for lunch?" "Oh, I'm feeling Chinese." Whereas a yellow-green is like, "Oh, I don't care. You decide."
Honestly, I think the yellow-greens are more innately kind because I have a daughter that's that way. She just is very go-with-the-flow, really doesn't have a sense of urgency in her a lot. Whereas a yellow-red is going to be a little bit more driven to accomplish a task. Whereas the yellow-green is really they're just all focused on people and no task.
The next combination, you can either be a red-yellow, or you can be a red-blue. A red-yellow is going to be someone who is decisive, but that is very people-oriented, still likes to have a lot of fun, is constantly, you know, potentially looking for people to engage with them in conversation. Whereas a red-blue is really fine, a little bit more so by themselves. It doesn't mean that they don't like people, but they're just so focused on tasks that they would have to put down, check in with my people. [00:09:42] You know, as a task, to check it off their list. So they're going to be a little bit more focused on accomplishment and the red-yellow will be a little bit more focused on the people side of things.
Then you have the breakdown of a blue-red, or it could be, you could be a blue-green. So a blue-red, they're going to be a little bit more quiet, a little bit more task-focused. They're going to be concerned more on safety and on accomplishing what needs to be accomplished on their to-do list. Whereas a blue-green is going to be pretty organized. However, they will leave room for spontaneity. They will not be as decisive. They will kind of have a little bit more go-with-the-flow in them. And even though the blue is a little bit about being a perfectionist, that green side of them will allow them some flexibility in that perfection.
Then if you're a green, you can either be a green-yellow, or a green-blue. So they're really go-with-the-flow. They're all people-oriented. [00:10:45] They're going to have very little task-focused. And so it's going to be a coworker or a child that you're probably going to have to stay on and keep motivated to accomplish something by a deadline. Whereas somebody that's a green-blue is going to still go with the flow, but they're going to be a little bit more on top of wanting to accomplish the task at hand because of that blue secondary. They have a little bit more focus on the task side of things.
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is awesome to start trying to picture where we are and where our children are at. One follow-up question with that, I'll just use a personal example. So I've tested and have been affirmed by those I love that I am a yellow-green. And yet in parenting, for the first time in my life, it's like I was able to borrow some of the skills of a red. It's much more difficult to borrow the skills of a blue. [00:11:49] But have you found that to be a pattern where whichever other one we touch, we can still lean into?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I mean, I think we all have elements of all four temperaments. I've seen those. We usually just have the primary and the secondary or your dominant and secondary. But I definitely feel like you can borrow the strengths or the weaknesses of all the temperaments.
And a lot of that depends on your own upbringing, your environment, you know, different things you've been exposed to. I definitely feel like that's possible. Because I'm a yellow-red and I'm really dominant yellow. So I just have a splash of red. And when I had triplets, you would have thought that I was totally blue because I, for the first two weeks, was so out of whack.
I like to not have a schedule, right? I like to just go with the flow. And then all of a sudden I realized this is going to kill me. Like I cannot have three infants in the house and not have a schedule. [00:12:50] So I borrowed a ton of learned behavior from the blues in my life of, Okay, I've got to get organized. I've got to keep a schedule for each of them. I need to know when each of them is going to the bathroom, so when the doctor says, when's the last time they had a bowel movement? I'm not like I have no idea.
So I absolutely think it's possible to borrow what you need from different temperaments and to learn and to grow. You know, Jesus was the best of all four of the temperaments. And so we don't usually master them like that on this earth. Maybe in heaven we will. But I definitely think there's an ability to grow and evolve. And hopefully, we're borrowing more of the strengths than the weaknesses.
Laura Dugger: I think those stories are so helpful for clarification. So can you think of any stories or examples to illustrate children's different temperaments?
Jenny Boyett: Well, yeah, I was going to share the story when I said I had thought my daughter Addie was going to be red-yellow. [00:13:51] Because she very much was around people and was popular, loved meeting new people and all of that. So really up until she got her permit, I was like, She's red-yellow, because I thought the red can be very organized as well. So that was what she was pulling from.
When I realized that safety was by far the most pressing concern for her when she got her permit, it was clear to me that the yellow piece of her, what I was assuming to be yellow, was some of the common similarities between the yellow and the red and that she was really blue. Because she was like, "You want me to drive this car on the road? That is not safe." And it just struck me.
Then as I started looking at her and hearing more of the things that were on her heart or why she chose to do certain things, it was less about the yellow attention and it was more about the red control. [00:14:52] Or some of the compassion that the yellow and the blue share, hers was coming more from the blue side than the yellow side. So that was really helpful to me.
And it like clicked. When I realized that, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, so much makes sense. Because she's red-blue and not red-yellow, that why her sister, who is her identical twin, who is a green-yellow, they are the total opposites. It helps explain some of their frustration with each other. So I think the secondary does come into play very much so.
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Laura Dugger: What is your wisdom for parenting children of each temperament?
Jenny Boyett: Well, I'm still learning this, right? So we'll just all learn together. But what I would say is being a student of your child first and foremost and really learning what they need. I'm sure Kathleen talked about each of those innate needs and what it is and trying to figure out practical things that you can do to fill those needs every day.
Honestly, when you need to apologize and you mess up, apologize, because I do that all the time. Children give us grace all the time, especially when they see us trying.
So I would say that for my red children, one of the things that was really helpful to me that I learned was to give them as much control over their world as you can. So, if you just have one child in their red, you can allow them to decide what they're going to wear for the day or decide when they want to do their chores. That's been super helpful, giving my red the ability to decide. [00:18:02]
If you have a red and then you have younger children, even having the red be helpful with the younger children. You know, hey, could you help Jimmy get his lunch packed? And where they can feel that they have some authority and that they have some control over their domain is really important.
For my yellow children, and I'm yellow, so that's most natural I can identify with what they're feeling, is really trying to make things fun. So when we're doing homework and it's a struggle, get out all the different color markers and let them write with different color markers and learn the, you know, Presidents of the United States based on different things or turning things into games. Anything, whether it's chores or homework that you can try to make more fun and appealing will definitely help you parent.
Even sometimes when I am frustrated with my yellow and she's not listening, even instead of being harsh, saying something like, "Oh, you silly, you know, it's time to get ready for dinner. Come on," you know, that would be the piece that's most helpful to them because they do not like to have rules or feel that things are not fun. [00:19:20]
The green, I have learned that my greens do not like anything that is considered work. They very much like to be low-key and go with the flow. And so if there's ways that I can point them to doing something without saying work.
For example, my daughter Riley, when I would just say, "Hey, you know, you have a tendency to procrastinate. But remember last time when we studied and we did flashcards and you felt so confident and it didn't stress you out to like cram for your test the night before." Reminding her of what went well to get her to preplan and to not use the word work has been really, really helpful.
As far as for my daughter that has blue in her, I would say to just really almost validate the concern, especially in the time that we're in right now with the pandemic and working from home and school from home and different things like that, validating her concerns and not just minimizing them because me as a yellow mom, I just want to be like, "Oh, it's fine. You can move on. Don't worry about it," I think really makes her feel invalid and in some of her concerns. [00:20:35]
I think validating her concern for cleanliness and safety and health. But also encouraging her that it's going to be okay and we can go and do some things out in public, and we don't just have to stay in the house has been a way to connect with her and validate her and motivate her as well. So those are just some basic tips.
Laura Dugger: Yes, that may be helpful for people now starting to identify what's worked with their own children. Even going back for each of the colors, it would just be a helpful reminder because you touched on a few of these. What are some of the innate needs of each color?
Jenny Boyett: So the yellow is all about attention and approval and acceptance and affection. That's very much people-focused.
Then our color, which are reds, there's innate needs are loyalty, sense of control, appreciation, credit for work. [00:21:37]
And then our blues are melancholies, they need safety, sensitivity, support and space and silence.
And then our phlegmatics are greens. They need harmony, feeling of worth, lack of stress and respect.
Laura Dugger: And so knowing that sometimes children, maybe especially like toddlers, will show up with more of the weaknesses of their color rather than the strengths, I would love to go back through some of those examples you gave. So let's think about a red child and you said they need a sense of control. So what wisdom would you share if you have a red child and you say, "Okay, honey, you get to choose either you get to do your chores now before lunch or you can eat first and then do your chores." What if they give a different option?
Jenny Boyett: I mean, I think it really just depends on if that option is okay with you. [00:22:39] I think the reds are constantly trying to think through what is the most efficient, effective way. And what I've heard Kathleen say for a lot of times is the reds usually have thought it through first.
So what I had to do when I was learning some of this early on is realize even though my 10-year-old is red, sometimes when I suggest a way to do something or I'm trying to give her control to do something, she actually has come up with a better plan. And just because I'm the parent, it doesn't mean I can't allow her and be like, "Oh, that's a good idea. Okay, I'm good with that." And me not feel like, Oh, she just controlled me or I just was pushed over.
I think there are levels where you can absolutely defer to, Okay, yeah, let's go with the third option. But then there's also times that they need to be a good red. They also need to learn to be under authority. And so there's had to be times that I've had to go back and go, "I realize that that makes sense to you. However, I would like it to go this way. So do you want to do option one or option two?" [00:23:43]
And so I think they've then just had to... she's just had to kind of lean in and realize, Okay, I'm given enough space to exercise my authority and control when I'm given. But I'm also under that authority. And so now I have to lean into mom and follow what she wants done first.
Laura Dugger: I love it. I think you gave a both/and which is always wisdom. Because it's both probably sometimes allowing them to choose that way, but then also not allowing for the defiance. And there are certain times, like you said, they need to come under authority.
Jenny Boyett: Yep, exactly.
Laura Dugger: Let me try and think of an example for a yellow, maybe more so like with children that are disobeying in these temperaments. Let's say a yellow, you're having a hard time getting them to sit at the table. How would you handle that?
Jenny Boyett: One of the things that I've loved learning is the phrase, tell me more. [00:24:43] Obviously, depending on the age of the kids, it will determine how much they can articulate, you know, tell me more, what's going on. But really, what Kathleen's taught me is to try to get to the heart of the behavior of like not just the behavior, but why they're doing the behavior.
This was a perfect example. This was a few years ago. My yellow daughter was just that. Now she was still like 13 years old, but was so distracted, would not sit at the table, was doing a bunch of stuff. And I'm like, "Hey, McKenna, I need you just to sit down and engage with us." You know, we like to go around the table and "What's your high for the day and low for the day?" And she just was distracted and not paying attention.
What I found out was that she was in a fight with her friends and they were going back and forth via text. So she was super distracted and wanted to be able to kind of finish that conversation.
So when you understand a little bit more of what's going on behind it, it helps you know kind of how to discipline or how to parent. [00:25:46] And so what I said is, you know, being a fellow yellow, if you will, I knew that that was going to weigh heavy on her mind and that she wasn't going to be able to engage in our conversation until she had at least put a period on that conversation. So giving her five minutes to go and have that to then engage with us at the table was really what she needed.
However, when they're little or like that, again, it very well may be a conversation of, Okay, what are you wanting to do and why are you wanting to do it? And, you know, how can we meet in the middle to sit down right now? And what need is filled?
Maybe it's really motivating them by, Hey, we do highs and lows. You get to go first tonight. Like, can you sit down and then let's pay attention to everybody else? So I think really trying to find the why, what's causing the distraction or the hyperactivity would be really important to then kind of know how to guide them. [00:26:39]
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's good. Let's move to our greens. You mentioned a lot of people are doing virtual learning right now. And so let's just speak to the parents who are really trying to motivate their green to finish their schoolwork and they're having challenges. How would you recommend they handle that situation?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, yes, that's us right now. My green daughter. So this was something we did yesterday. We literally just started school on Monday and there were a lot of tears. They're juniors in high school so the social aspect is missing. Even the setup of our house isn't super ideal because the way that they have to use their school computers, they don't have earphones. So they all have to be very separated in order to do that.
But my green is fine just to sit in her bed and do that. You know, and I realize that isn't working for her. Like, she just can't focus. We moved a desk into her room and we went out and got some stuff and set it up. [00:27:40] She literally said last night, "I feel so much more prepared to be able to engage in virtual learning tomorrow. Thank you for helping set this up."
And what I realized is providing some structure for my green to set her up for the best success is going to just help her be able to be successful. I also think giving her space. I mean, we're on online learning from 8:20 to 3:30. And so last night, really motivating her by giving her space and time with some friends from five to nine was what she needed to be able to just get out of the house and to be outside.
So for my red-blue daughter, that isn't as important. She isn't missing that social interaction quite as much. So I think knowing what motivated my green, one, her not feeling alone. I think her knowing that I was there to support her and set her up for her desk and her school was really important. We even got her a little planner and she felt excited about that. [00:28:41] And then just having that freedom to be with friends last night really was filling up her cup. And so that was super helpful for her.
Laura Dugger: That helps us brainstorm ways to support our green because it seems they do appreciate the accountability, even if they're controlling by this procrastination or choosing to dig in their heels or be stubborn, that it sounds like she even came back and was able to circle back and say, thank you.
Jenny Boyett: Yes. She really wants to be successful. It's just sometimes I think they're so indecisive that they need a little push to go, "You know what? I don't think sitting in your bed and trying to doing this is going to be good. Let's try this," and leave room for maybe she'll come back and say, "No, I don't like that as much" and I'll find her on her computer in her bed. But right now I think she feels like she had support and was able to have lack of stress because I kind of engaged with her and helped set it up. So, yeah, absolutely. [00:29:43]
Laura Dugger: Finally, our blues. I'll give you two different scenarios to see which one resonates. So for the littler kids, it seems like blues are more likely to be our whiners or as they get older, those blues with the deep emotions, maybe if they're really struggling with forgiveness because of their high standards for themselves and others. How would you encourage us to parent through those scenarios?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, goodness. I mean, the blues are super hard on themselves, so they don't need you to be much harder on them. I have found trying to help them get out of their head and to focus on their strengths and what went well has been really important. Even as little kids I think we can do that and focus on, "What went well here and what did we learn from that? And then what are we going to do different next time?" so they have a plan. [00:30:42] Because our blues are all about wanting a plan.
And then being able to motivate them to is just being super sensitive and identifying and validating what they're feeling. I think our blues want us to understand where they're coming from, even if we don't agree. They want to know that we understand and can empathize with their position. That's what I have found to be helpful in me connecting with my daughter that has blue and also supporting her so she feels loved and affirmed.
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As we think of the unique interactions between the two colors represented in every parent-child relationship, what encouragement do you want to share for that?
Jenny Boyett: I mean, I put all of this up on my fridge just so I can remind myself what each child needs and how to engage in this and how to not do this. It does feel overwhelming at times, but I think the main piece that I try to focus on is, what is one thing that I can do to fill each of them up with one of their needs each day?
It can even be little things like my yellow, if I just will come around the corner and scare her, she'll think that's fun. And that kind of fills that for the day, right? So there are unique interactions.
And there are some that are a little bit harder. [00:33:43] It's a little bit easier for me to connect with my yellow because I am a yellow, right? Whereas for me to connect with my red-blue daughter, even though I have some red in me, the blue is so foreign to me that it can be opposite and it can be hard.
And so when you're thinking of some of those opposite relationships... Let's take the blue-yellow, for example. I'm a yellow mom, and so I like to have fun and get all in her business and all that. But giving her space and... when I fold her laundry for her and the way she likes it is like I'm singing her love language, you know?
But on the opposite side, I'm sure we have some blue moms listening, and they have a yellow child. And that blue mom out there that likes things organized and planned, I mean, maybe you surprise your yellow child with letting them make a mess or you being the one to start it.
One of my friends is a blue mom, and they did plateless spaghetti, which is something that we've done in my family. As a yellow, that's not a big deal at all. [00:34:43] You just get a plastic tablecloth, and your kids don't expect you to let there be a mess. And when you use no plates and throw the spaghetti down and they're just like, what's going on? Mom's lost her mind. Those are things that will actually make a memory for some of those, and your yellow children would just love it.
So I feel like getting out of our own way and our own temperament to engage with them is really helpful. When I think of some red-green combinations, the red mom, sometimes they are not understanding why the green just doesn't want to get out of the house in the morning. Like, "Come on, chop, chop, chop. We got to go. We got to go." And they're constantly hurrying the child to get out of the house.
And to realize that, Gosh, the child doesn't want to rush. You know, the child is really struggling. And so maybe the red mom sets the schedule back 15 minutes just to prepare to intentionally give the green child almost like, "You know what? Let's take five minutes. We don't need to rush today." I mean, that would blow the green child's mind. Like, "What? We're always rushing trying to get different places." [00:35:49] Because the red moms are so proactive and they're trying to accomplish a lot, the green just doesn't want to accomplish a whole lot.
In fact, this is a true story. I have a good friend and she's a red mom and she has a green daughter. The red mom wants this child to be a sports person and play sports and be so focused on that, and the child is not interested. The only reason he's interested in baseball is because it's an activity with teammates.
So the mom is there like, you know, wants him to win, wants the team to win and really is only happy if the team won. And what she realized recently as we were talking temperaments was her focused on just the winning actually crushed his spirit because even one of the games that they lost, he felt so connected to the teammates and they went out to dinner afterwards and had such a good time connecting with friends that that was a win for him. [00:36:52]
And when she just minimized it to baseball successful, if you play well and if the team wins, was really opposite to what was going on in his mind. And when that clicked for her, it really changed their relationship and she was able to connect with him more around the friend aspect. That doesn't mean she doesn't want the team to win because she certainly does. But it just helped her not put as much emphasis on that piece of it and to be sensitive to the relationship side that was important to her son.
Laura Dugger: That is awesome. I'm wondering for the green-red the other way, do the green parents often feel controlled by their red child or what are some of the other struggles there?
Jenny Boyett: I have definitely heard that. Yes, they feel like they're running the roost and that they're in control. So the green parent will almost be really stubborn to try to show their authority to the red child when it's in their weakness.
I think having those conversations and really celebrating what the red child can bring to the household, but establishing that they're in authority is crucial. [00:38:03] Because, yes, the red child will try to 100 percent take over that red parent all day long.
Laura Dugger: So when the red child is trying to take over the green parent and they're being really disrespectful, that touches on something for the green parent because they need that feeling of respect. So how do you encourage the green parent in that moment?
Jenny Boyett: I mean, I think what the green parent can do is really focus in on the red strengths and talk about, "Hey, you are a leader. God made you a leader worth following. Being a good leader is also being under authority. One of my needs is for respect. And when you talk over me or you disrespect me or don't obey me, that's not being a good leader. And God wired you to be a good leader."
So I think the reds motivating them by what their strengths are and encouraging them to be in their strengths and understand that even a good leader is still under authority. And what that looks like will go a long way to motivate the red. [00:39:12]
Because I'm a yellow parent, but I have a very strong 10-year-old red daughter, and I have to do that all the time. Instead of being frustrated with her leadership, I want to breathe life into that, but let her know, "Hey, this is disrespectful. This actually isn't being a good leader. And God designed you to be a good leader. God designed you to be decisive, but this isn't the time that you get to make the decision. This is mommy's decision."
So I think just having very clear conversations with our reds helps them understand and know what their boundaries are and puts up the guardrails for them to be able to be their best self.
Laura Dugger: Oh, Jenny, that is so good. Are there any other lessons as it relates to temperaments and parenting that we haven't covered yet?
Jenny Boyett: I feel like the best tip that I ever got from Kathleen was these three little words. And it's "tell me more". That has helped me as a parent so much because it allows me to hear more of the heart behind the story or their complaint or their issue before jumping to a conclusion and trying to fix it, if you will. [00:40:19]
I just encourage every parent, I think you can do that even when they're little toddlers, if you can create some margin to be able to ask that question. Because even now, now that I have 16-year-olds and I say, tell me more, and it's 10 o'clock at night, I'm realizing for my yellow that might mean an hour conversation, you know. And so I've got to prepare myself for the hour answer to that question. But I do think it's so important because it really gives you the heart behind what is going on and it'll help guide you in what your next step is.
Laura Dugger: And because we love practicality that ideally leads to transformation, what resources do you recommend for further learning related to this topic?
Jenny Boyett: Kathleen has a book out, I Said This, You Heard That. It's a workbook. There's like 15 videos. There's some Ask Kathleen videos that are all on the YouTube channel. So if they just go to the ISaidYouHear.Study or look up I Said This, You Heard That on YouTube, you would be able to find all of that information. [00:41:24]
And then I love following along on social media as well with Facebook and Instagram because there's also tips and posts that come up that we can all learn from each other, you know, practical tips on, Oh, yes, how do I motivate my green today in this season? So I encourage them to look that all up.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Her resource is so incredible. We'll actually plan to give one away on social media this week as well. Jenny, where can listeners follow up with you online?
Jenny Boyett: In my role at North Point, I am part of our resource team. And so if they have a direct message and want to get it to me and go to the I Said This, You Heard That Facebook or Instagram direct message, they'll get it to me. So I would be happy to engage with anyone that had a question or wanted to follow up.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We, as always, will link to that in our show notes and our resources tab of the website so people can follow up and find that information easily. [00:42:25] But we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight and we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. So as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Jenny Boyett: I would boil it down to find a good counselor or mentor. I feel like I have become a better version of myself by being in counseling and learning about myself, but then also having mentors and coaches that I can bounce things off of. And that's one of the reasons I love your podcast, because we can become the best versions of ourselves by learning this information.
But to me, having someone to talk it through with, like a good counselor or coach or mentor, is the practical application to actually putting it into practice. So find a good coach or mentor would be my savvy sauce ingredient. [00:43:27]
Laura Dugger: Oh, my goodness, that is so good. Well said. And thank you for those kind words. We have mutual friends and I've always heard just the most wonderful things about you for years and it was all confirmed in getting to chat with you today. You're so vibrant and skilled in your communication and vocation. So thank you so very much for being my guest today.
Jenny Boyett: Oh, thank you. I know. Vice versa. I'm like, next time you're in town, we've got to meet face-to-face because I've heard such great things about you and love what you're doing with your podcast. And I'm happy to be a part of it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:44:26]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:45:28]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:46:27]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.