491.9K
Downloads
349
Episodes
Practical Chats for Intentional Living
Episodes
Wednesday Feb 14, 2024
Wednesday Feb 14, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
BONUS: Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
**Transcription Below**
1 Corinthians 7:3 (AMP) “The husband must fulfill his [marital] duty to his wife [with good will and kindness], and likewise the wife to her husband."
Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).
Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
christianfriendlysexpositions.com
Thank You to Our Sponsor: T Photography Use code SAVVY when booking to receive 10 extra full-res digital negatives in your session package!
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfaeastpeoria.com
If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release, so here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.
But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:22] The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit.
We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs.
We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. [00:02:22] Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.
And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons.
My guest is psychologist and founder of Authentic Intimacy, Dr. Juli Slattery.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Juli.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, thanks so much for having me again.
Laura Dugger: And for those who missed our previous episode, can you give us a glimpse of who you are and what you do?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I'm a wife of 25 years, mom of three sons who are quickly leaving the nest. I'm a clinical psychologist. My work these days is I run a ministry called Authentic Intimacy, and our vision is reclaiming God's design for sexuality. That practically looks like just helping people sort through where is God in the midst of what I'm struggling with, in my marriage, in my singleness, with sexual temptation, with the confusion of culture. [00:03:23] So really integrating God's truth with just the issues that we deal with everyday related to intimacy and sexuality.
Laura Dugger: Well, it's a very important work that you talk with people from all over the world about this topic. So from your wealth of knowledge in this area, what themes are you starting to see repeatedly?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, there are some themes that we've seen really since we started this work in 2012. And those probably won't surprise anyone. But there are things like how do we overcome differences in marriage related to sex? What if I have no sexual desire or my husband has no desire? We talk a lot about pornography and addressing that in marriage and just family.
Sexual abuse recovery. Probably about one-third of women have had sexual trauma in their past and about one out of every six men. And so this impacts a lot of people. And so how do you heal from that and how that impacts intimacy? [00:04:27]
Then in today's day and age, we're also getting new questions just related to gender fluidity and just redefining marriage. And what does the Bible have to say about all those things?
So I'm definitely not bored. My job definitely keeps me on my knees and in the word of God and just really trying to give people biblical guidance through the kinds of issues we're facing today.
Laura Dugger: Yes. Even through your podcast, which is just one part of Authentic Intimacy, you have so many episodes. It just seems you never run out of ideas related to this topic. Is that right?
Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. You would think that we would. We've been doing the podcast now for, I think, like five years and we have over 250 episodes. But we don't run out of topics because people are just grappling with these issues.
Sometimes we'll just teach through a topic, but often we'll have a guest on that shares a story of just where God has brought healing and redemption. [00:05:29] Sometimes we just talk about our relationship with the Lord. I wanted all to go back to that. So keep going as long as the podcast is helping people and ministering to them.
Laura Dugger: Well, it sounds like it definitely is. I personally love the local church. I'm sure you do as well. So I hope that we're all doing our part both to build it up and protect it. What do you see the church getting wrong and getting right on this topic?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, you have to almost look at it from a historic point of view. Because I think most of us who have grown up in the church, any form of church, would probably say that my church growing up never talked about sex. And if they did talk about sex, it was awkward. Maybe it was with a very harsh or judgmental tone. Or it was a male pastor telling the wives that this is important in marriage.
So we have a lot of baggage, I think, from the ways that the church has not addressed sexuality. [00:06:31] Or if we have addressed it, it hasn't been with God's heart. And so there are a lot of people that have a history with the church related to sexuality that actually makes them feel like God is the last place I want to go to talk about sex. And so we have a lot of undoing to get this right, I think, in our current generation.
I'm glad to see that churches, by and large, are starting to address the kinds of issues that people are struggling with without making them feel shame. For struggling with pornography, for questioning things around gender, for brokenness in marriage, or sleeping around promiscuity, all those things that traditionally you never want to admit in a church, I think we're now starting to get realistic about the fact that this is where people live today and they need practical help.
But there's also a really big divide happening in our country and also in our churches.[00:07:31] You know, is God primarily a God of love who just embraces wherever we are, allows us to stay where we are? Or is God more a God of truth that has these standards of righteousness and we have to live up to these standards of righteousness?
There's a lot of sorting through those issues right now in the Christian church of how do we walk with both the truth of God and the grace of God. That's really my heart is helping churches and just individuals grapple through that tension.
Laura Dugger: I like how you said tension there because it's not just an easy one-time sermon that will solve all the problems, right?
Dr. Juli Slattery: No, not at all. Actually, one thing that I'm really encouraging churches to adopt is more of what I call a sexual discipleship model, where they're approaching issues of sexuality with a discipleship mindset. And discipleship is lifelong. It's this goal of maturity that we're all walking towards. [00:08:31] And it means really authentic relationships, doing life together, and dealing with the real-life issues as they happen. You know, let's respond to what just happened in the news or what's happening within our church body, instead of it feeling like sex is always talked about just from like a high and lofty perspective.
Laura Dugger: That's really good. Changing gears here a little bit, as believers, I think that we should have the most fulfilling sex lives in our marriages because we are intimately connected as well to the creator of intimacy. So are there any sexual pleasures or benefits you think believers are missing out on just because of a lack of education or maybe a belief in anything short of God's truth?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I see that all the time, particularly in a couple ways. First of all, there are a lot of Christians that carry shame around related to their sexuality because of things they feel guilty about that they've done in the past or they're currently struggling with, because of things they've experienced or even religious teaching that made them feel that sexual desire and pleasure is wrong. [00:09:42] And so I think that's one big barrier to overcome.
I think particularly with Christian women, like how do I enjoy this in my marriage when I feel like I've grown up thinking this is wrong and my desires are wrong? That's a barrier. But then I think also we have a very superficial, even within the church, understanding of what sexual desire is supposed to be.
I think we buy the Hollywood image of it that the best sexual pleasure is going to be like with two perfect bodies and it's on the honeymoon and it's just this natural ecstasy that happens. That's just not the reality for married couples. It doesn't usually happen right away where sex is fun or pleasurable. It usually takes work. There's obstacles to overcome. Our bodies are not perfect.
And so I think because we buy that lie that the greatest sexual pleasure is kind of this ecstasy of a moment, we miss the kind of pleasure that can be built on a journey over time, even as we together work through obstacles. [00:10:52] There's a much more profound intimacy, vulnerability, and pleasure for couples that will hang in there and be on that journey together instead of giving up when things don't go well right away.
Laura Dugger: You're right because doesn't the research validate that couples who have been together longer are more satisfied, even comparing it to Hollywood, things we wouldn't expect if they're having health issues or they've added children to the marriage, and yet there is this mystery of they're enjoying it more later?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, that's what the research does show, that the most sexually satisfied people are people that have been in a long-term committed relationship. Interestingly, those that have a strong faith, like a religious faith, are more likely to have a good sex life as they age. So, yeah, it bears out God's design. But we don't hear that very often. We're just bombarded with messages that sex is all about how it feels in the moment and how your body looks and how much you're compatible with each other but that's not what the research shows. [00:12:01]
Laura Dugger: Okay, so now with that foundation, what do you recommend for all of the couples listening to experience more sexual pleasure?
Dr. Juli Slattery: One thing I'd recommend is really to take a long-term view of it. Think of it like you have this project that you're working on as a couple. Sometimes I'll talk about it being like a box of Legos.
When you open up a box of Legos, you have a really cool design on the outside of the box, but you don't open up the box to get a finished product. You have to put all the pieces together and follow the directions, and it might take you a long time to build it. With Legos even, once you build, you tear it down, you build again.
Sex is a lot more like that. It can be very confusing, frustrating. It can cause conflict in your marriage right out of the gate or as you encounter difficulty. But if you continually remind yourself and your spouse that God has actually given us this gift so that we learn to love more intimately, so that we're learning to forgive, we're learning to be unselfish. [00:13:05] If you can have that perspective, then really any obstacles you have to overcome, whether they're emotional or physical or difference in desires or whether there's pornography or things like that that you need to work through, you see that even in the obstacles, God can be doing something really good between you.
Laura Dugger: I think there's two important points there, what you're talking about. First, that there likely will be obstacles at some point and that there's hope in that. Second, I've heard you speak with that Lego example before. I think it's such a great example.
I remember you saying if you opened it up and you expected that picture that's on the box, and then you open it up and all these pieces just fall out, you'd be very disappointed.
Dr. Juli Slattery: For sure. I think all of us have experienced that. Like, wow, this isn't what I thought it would be. Even if you've had sex before you got married, a lot of married couples will say, once we got married, we can't agree or it's not fun anymore. [00:14:07] So, yeah, the obstacles are normal and you should expect them.
Laura Dugger: Why do you think that is, that couples, even if they had been sexually active before marriage, they come into marriage and it's not working for them? Any reasons or theories you have on that?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think there are all kinds of reasons. We can look at it from even a spiritual perspective that I really believe that Satan hates great sex within marriage. He does because it's a very powerful part of God's design and God's blessing. And so he'll do anything he can to make sex a source of conflict instead of a source of unity.
But I think also we often come into marriage with the belief that our sex life is about me being pleased and about us having pleasure. We just naturally love that way when we're immature. We love the idea of you loving me well.
In marriage, sex is just one of those areas that exposes our selfish perspective. [00:15:09] And it doesn't matter how, quote-unquote, compatible you are, you're going to hit a wall with your spouse, probably early on in marriage related to sexuality, where you wanted sex but he or she didn't. Or maybe your spouse wanted sex and you didn't feel ready. Or something was said that was hurtful. Or, you know, something was insensitive. You're going to run into something that hurts your sense of this was for me.
Again, this is not just in the sexual relationship. It's all of marriage where you have to share your money, you have to share your time. And you start to realize that you've always defined love as how the other person is making you feel, and now all of a sudden you don't feel so great. I think that's a good part of growing. You know, people will say, hey, that's a bad thing. But if we never experienced that, we would just love very selfishly. We'd never move past that. [00:16:09]
Laura Dugger: And I think what you do so well, even with your resources like your study Passion Pursuit, there's this healthy both/and approach because, yes, we are selfish. And that can come out in intimacy and marriage. And I would think especially for Christian women, sometimes we're too selfless, if that's possible. Would you agree with that?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, absolutely. What happens if you're a completely selfless lover and all you want to do is please the other person? Well, one thing that happens is the other person gets to stay selfish. That's not healthy. That's not healthy for intimacy. In the long run, it's going to breed resentment.
I mean, I've talked to women who are 10, 15, 20 years into marriage, and they're resentful that sex has always been about pleasing him. And maybe in the moment they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my duty. I'm a good Christian wife. I'm being a good lover." [00:17:09] But in the long run, you haven't built intimacy and you haven't challenged your husband to learn to be a good lover. And so, yeah, it's not completely about you and it's not completely about him.
As you learn to love each other, you actually find that it's all supposed to be leading to God, to understanding his love for us, to learning to love God more as a couple. And so I think it's dangerous. I'm glad you brought that up. It's dangerous to have the perspective that it's all about me or it's all about him. Intimacy is a mutual yielding to each other.
Laura Dugger: I remember, it might have even been in your resource, but oftentimes the biggest turn-on for a husband is a turned-on wife. So if she's only focused on being selfless, she could be doing the opposite of what she's actually intending.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're absolutely right. The biggest pleasures that a husband has is knowing that he's bringing pleasure to his wife and absolutely that she's into it, that she's available, that she's enjoying it. [00:18:13] And guys will tell you that, Hey, I appreciate it when my wife's just like, hey, this is for you. I'm just going to be pretty passive in this." They're like, "Well, thank you. But that's not really what I want."
You know, thankfully, God has designed men in such a way that they want to be great lovers. It's part of even their sense of masculinity and ego to please their wife. And so that's a great point, Laura, that you bring up, that even in this idea of I'm going to be unselfish, you're really even stealing a deeper pleasure from your husband if you don't let yourself enjoy it.
Laura Dugger: Let's speak just a little bit further to that wife listening. What encouragement would you have for her or what is the first step maybe in correcting that mindset?
Dr. Juli Slattery: It sounds like you may have gone through our Bible study, Passion Pursuit. Is that right?
Laura Dugger: That's right. Yeah.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Okay. So, yeah, that Bible study actually is going to be really powerful in unearthing some of the things we believe about sex that really aren't biblical. [00:19:16] And I know I went through this in my own life through writing Passion Pursuit, ironically, just the idea that I'd kind of grown up with without realizing it, that sex was really about pleasing my husband and a good wife would please her husband.
But I never really considered that part of God's design was that a wife is initiating sex, that she's enjoying it. That's even part of a husband's challenge to figure out his wife, to unlock her sexually.
So a great first step would be going through Passion Pursuit. But if you don't go through Passion Pursuit, get in God's word, read the Song of Solomon, and really think about why would God put such erotic poetry in the Bible? Why does this little book belong within God's word? And what does it say to me about what a healthy sex life is supposed to look like in my marriage? And what you start to realize is that lies just get planted in our hearts without us even realizing it. [00:20:18]
Sometimes it is through trauma. Sometimes it's because we've done things in the past that we still feel guilty about. And sometimes it's just because the church hasn't taught us a healthy biblical perspective of sexuality. And so we just kind of grow up believing that God really isn't pro-sex, where the Scripture says He really is within the covenant of marriage.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. It is such a great resource. I can't recommend it enough. As always, we'll link to it both in our show notes and then on our website under the Resources tab.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I want to say thank you to our longtime sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. I hope that you've already downloaded the Chick-fil-A app. Because did you know that with the app you can skip the line and have food ready for you when you arrive? This is one of my favorite options when I'm taking my four daughters to Chick-fil-A East Peoria.
Download the Chick-fil-A app today and start earning points toward free rewards that are fully customized to your preferences and tastes. [00:21:23] Chick-fil-A was named as one of Glassdoor's best places to work in the nation. That's a huge honor.
One team member even wrote, "No comparison. This is a great job for a first job, extra money or career advancement. Such a loving environment, great management, and fair pay." Chick-fil-A believes that the local and involved ownership ensures fostering an environment where you are known, challenged, and cared for.
So if you're looking for a wonderful place to work, visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria or fill out an application online today at cfeastpeoria.com.
Did you know this podcast recently came under the umbrella of our new nonprofit, Savvy Sauce Charities? We launched Savvy Sauce Charities to resource loved ones to grow in intimacy with God and others. Our goal is to share joy through podcast episodes and monthly emails and bonus content. [00:22:23]
It has been a learning curve, so I want to clarify something I've previously shared. I always want to be transparent with you, so I apologize if this has been confusing in the past, as I am learning so much through this transition into becoming a nonprofit.
But as soon as we were recognized as an official nonprofit with a tax ID number, I shared how you could make a tax-deductible donation. Our attorney let me know that we are actually still awaiting the next step in the process, which is to receive our recognition of exempt status from the IRS, and that apparently takes many months. I was informed that contributions will still be retroactively tax-exempt, but we're still awaiting that official confirmation from the IRS. So I will keep you posted when that paperwork goes through.
But will you prayerfully consider financially partnering with us to ensure that we can continue this work into the future? We've been blessed by donations in the hundreds and thousands and in the single digits, and we are truly grateful for any amount the Lord brings to your mind. [00:23:29] You have no idea how encouraging it is to learn someone has generously shared their offering with us.
There's not a lot of feedback in this work, so receiving a donation or a kind letter refreshes us to press on, and my promise to you is to continue seeking God as I steward these finances.
I will share updates on our website, thesavvysauce.com, and you can find the "Donate" tab with all the details when you visit thesavvysauce.com. If you have any other questions, always feel free to reach out to this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. Thank you for partnering with us in this meaningful work. I am grateful beyond measure.
Laura Dugger: Now, on the flip side, are there any parts of sexual intimacy that you believe God's Word makes clear are off-limits to believers?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, for sure. The most obvious thing is anything that involves another person. [00:24:31] We live in a culture that is talking about open marriages and involving other people in your love life in a physical way, which I think most Christians would understand is clearly wrong.
But where we get a little gray with it is, well, how about in my own imagination? Or how about if we as a couple look at pornography as a way of getting into sexual arousal? We've got to understand that whether you bring somebody into your bedroom in the flesh or in an image or on your computer screen, you're violating the purpose of sex, which is to celebrate a covenant promise between the two of you.
I believe Scripture's really clear that we work to make sure that even within our minds and our hearts, it really is a celebration of ecstasy and intimacy and vulnerability that only involves the two people that have made a covenant to each other. [00:25:31]
Laura Dugger: I think that's a really great point. Like you mentioned earlier, Satan can run with these things. I think one lie that people believe is maybe if they're looking at pornography themselves, this only affects me.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: That's just not truth.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Or they'll justify it, that it's a shortcut. You know, it's easier to be aroused by looking at something really salacious. But again, what the research shows us is that the end result of that is you're not even going to be able to be aroused by being with your spouse.
You're not going to be able to enjoy the great gift that God has given you and your spouse because your brain has been tricked out to respond to things that are unnatural.
Laura Dugger: Yes. And that thing that you thought was really exciting at the time, that's good to play it out long term. That's wisdom. And to see that it can really devastate your sexual intimacy with your partner.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Laura Dugger: Let's just do a quick general sex ed and cover a few things that you wish spouses knew more about each other. [00:26:32] Let's start with husbands. Juli, because you're an objective third party, what is some helpful information you can provide them with?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I'd say one thing, and this is probably something you already know but it's good to be reminded of. Your wife's sexuality is intertwined with every other aspect of who she is. There's some authors that wrote a book a long time ago called Men Are Like Waffles and Women Are Like Spaghetti.
They describe how men are like waffles because they can compartmentalize everything. Like waffles have those little boxes in them where women are like spaghetti. Every noodle touches every other noodle.
And this is really true with sexuality. Men are much more adept at just compartmentalizing a sexual expression. They can be aroused just by looking at something or one thought. Whereas women, in order for them to be aroused, they have to feel safe emotionally. They have to feel connected to you. They have to be able to shut off everything else that's going on in their mind. [00:27:33] Like, I've got to take care of the kids, and what if one of them hears us?
And so be sensitive to the fact that for your wife to really enjoy sex, you have to be ministering to her at every level. Helping her be rested, helping her feel safe, helping her feel connected. And that sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it's worth it.
And it's not just about helping your wife have a sexual expression. It's about really helping her feel connected to you and enjoying the whole experience, which is why I think a lot of women, particularly as they're raising young kids, they'll say, I just don't like sex because I never feel ready for it. And so, guys, if this is important to you, then remember that you have to think about how your wife is doing relationally and emotionally and physically and not just in the middle of the day or at the end of the day say, hey, how about we be intimate? Because you're likely to get a no if you haven't been aware of those other things. So that would be a big thing I'd tell husbands. [00:28:36]
Laura Dugger: I think that's so good, and especially because you use that word "ministering", really that definition is meeting other people's needs. That really clarifies the next step maybe a husband can take in meeting the needs of his wife. Like you said, maybe it's doing dishes and putting the kids to bed or they can be creative.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Some of the most romantic things my husband has done for me have been just ways that he's served me outside of the bedroom. I remember when I was in the stage of motherhood that you're in with little kids, one morning waking up and the sun woke me up. And it's like maybe eight in the morning and I panicked because I was like, "Oh, I slept in like I overslept. I got to get the kids to school. And who woke up the baby and fed"? You know, like I immediately panicked.
Then I realized that my husband had gotten up early and just done all that for me and let me sleep in. [00:29:34] I tell you, that was like, wow, where's that man? I want to show him some love. But just really understanding that courting your wife, you know, really inviting her to intimacy is about a lot more than getting naked. It's really about serving her in those other areas.
Laura Dugger: And such a practical example that you just gave one way of ministering would be helping her sleep because fatigue is usually the number one for a wife for killing sexual intimacy.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Isn't that funny? It's that simple, but we just don't have the energy.
The other thing I would encourage husbands to do is to give your wife like a warm-up time. We call that foreplay. But really what I mean even more so is that because women have to be prepared emotionally and physically, if they know, hey, tonight we're going to try to be intimate, then they'll think that way.
They'll begin thinking about what they want to do with you and thinking about, Okay, I'm not going to try to get all the laundry done tonight and, you know, think about I want to take a bath or a shower this afternoon so I just feel clean. [00:30:47] All those things that you don't think are important, that's what gets a woman ready for intimacy. And so if you just feel like you always want to be spontaneous, you're most likely not to be met with open arms.
Like my husband and I have tried different things over the years, whether it's putting sex on the calendar so that I know, Hey, this is what I'm preparing for. Or even something that we would call a requisition order. Doesn't sound romantic, but it was kind of a joke between us where Mike would like say, "Hey, I'm putting in a requisition order. Like I would like to be with you. I want sex with you, but I know it's going to take time for you to get ready. So how about, you know, sometime in the next 24 hours we find a time to be intimate?"
Just that communication has made a huge difference in our marriage, instead of me always feeling like he was going to initiate and I was going to have to try to get out of it because I wasn't ready. [00:31:46]
Laura Dugger: That's a great example. Before I had kids as a marriage and family therapist, I remember working in a private practice and talking about these issues and clients would come up with different ways to do this. And like you said, for wives, they usually do have to declutter their minds and it helps to be thinking about this.
So when it was a day that they knew they were going to try and be intimate with their husband, they would write TS on the calendar and just think sex. That would mentally prepare them and even help them store up enough energy throughout the day for that night to be special.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're right. I've heard all kinds of creative ideas. Like, you know, hanging a sign on the door or a certain text that's a code between the two of them. That might even change over time as your language with each other changes over time and your circumstance change. But learning to communicate is really, really healthy and will help avoid those continual misunderstandings or feelings of rejection related to sex. [00:32:53]
Laura Dugger: And it can lighten it up in an appropriate way to make it just kind of fun and playful when you communicate that way.
So now we've covered a little bit of what we would say to husbands. Now, what about wives? What do you wish you could help them understand about their husbands?
Dr. Juli Slattery: I would wish that wives would understand that although husbands can be more compartmentalized with sex, to understand that sex still impacts every aspect of who they are. They don't always have the words for it.
For example, we've already talked about this a little bit. Husbands, their sense of masculinity or the ego is really tied up in their sexuality. This plays out in a lot of different ways. For a man that has a higher sex drive, if he continually feels rejected by his wife, that chips away at his confidence, at his feeling of safety within your marriage.
But that also plays out for men that have a lower sex drive. [00:33:53] I'd say probably 20%, 30% of marriages, a man's going to just naturally have a lower sex drive than his wife does. In that situation, both the man and the woman can feel very inadequate. Like, what's wrong with me? A woman will feel like, "All my friends are talking about how their husbands always want sex. My husband never pursues me." And she can feel rejected.
But what adds to it then is the man starts to feel less like a man. Like, "What's wrong with me? Because I can't enjoy this. I don't desire this like other men do."
So really understanding as you address sexuality within your marriage, that a man's confidence, his sense of ego, his sense of masculinity and self is really tied up in the whole topic of sexuality. And being sensitive to that, whatever issue you're addressing. Being careful not to shame him, but just to embrace who he is and walk with him on that journey. [00:34:53]
And that's the other thing I would say is that a wife is really a teammate for a husband in every area of life. You know, in Genesis, God said it's not good for a man to be alone, so I'm going to make him a helper. Or the Hebrew word is ezer. Like an empowering person that walks alongside him.
I think it's important for a wife to realize that most men face a really challenging journey of trying to honor God with their sexuality. And you want to be his teammate in that. To help him know that he doesn't have to keep secrets from you. That you want to understand where he's tempted. Not that you're his accountability partner, but that you share this part of his life with him. And it's not like he has to be isolated.
So those are two things I'd encourage you to consider as a wife.
Laura Dugger: I think those are great. Just thinking back, I've heard you speak before and there is a really practical example. [00:35:52] I just love how you answered someone's question this one time. She had asked why her husband didn't like her rubbing his leg to get him in the mood. And you just frankly said, "He probably wishes you were rubbing something else."
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. That's practical. But it is a difference between men and women. Women generally like indirect stimulation that makes them feel safe and comfortable and gets them going. Men like direct stimulation in one place. And they're happy to just get right started there. So those are some of the differences that most couples are going to have to navigate.
Laura Dugger: And once we understand some of those gender differences, I think it can counterintuitively pull us closer together and actually make our sex lives more satisfying.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think those gender differences were part of God's original design. It's not like the gender differences appeared with sin. [00:36:52] Adam and Eve were different from the beginning. And there's a lot of reasons why we're different, but one of them is, again, because it forces you to have a larger view of what sex is about in your marriage. That it's not just about me always getting my needs met. It's about us on a journey together learning what it is to love.
Laura Dugger: Well, I love encouragement. So what patterns are you seeing in couples who are getting it right as it relates to their overall intimacy in marriage?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, you know, I get so much encouragement through what I'm doing at Authentic Intimacy. And it's so fun to run into people two or three years after maybe they've been to an event that we've done or they've gone through Passion Pursuit or another book. And they just will say, like, "God has completely changed this area of our life. We used to fight about it all the time. Now it's just really become a joy. And we're learning to love each other in such profound ways." [00:37:53]
Just being able to hear stories of couples that have overcome infidelity, pornography, you know, just all kinds of differences, sexual pain. And so I get to hear encouraging stories a lot of what happens when a couple really yields this part of their marriage to God. And is on that journey of healing.
Laura Dugger: There may be some effort they have to put into that or maybe go see a third party, and like you said, getting in God's word. But it is so worthwhile.
Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. And it's a journey. You're right. It doesn't just magically happen. You do have to work at it and pray about it. And at times get some outside help. But it's worth it.
Laura Dugger: Well, and if you are one of the keys for them getting this outside help, can you just tell people where they can find you online?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. You can find out everything we're doing at AuthenticIntimacy.com. You'll see books, Bible studies, our podcast, blog events. You know, just however you can connect with our ministry, you'll be able to find that there. [00:38:55]
Laura Dugger: Juli, I just have one final question for you.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Uh-huh.
Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Juli Slattery: Wow, this is going to sound very churchy, but it's the first thing that comes to my mind is just spending time with God. I can't do anything that God asked me to do without spending time with Him, including love my husband. Sex within our marriage has never been an easy thing for us.
And so for us to walk with integrity, for me to be a woman of integrity, for me to teach my kids, really all depends on God's healing in my life and getting His perspective. So if there's one piece of advice I'd give is make an effort, even if it's just 15 minutes a day, to spend time with God and get His perspective on everything, including sexuality. [00:39:56]
Laura Dugger: That's great wisdom. I know I've followed your work for years, Juli, and I admire your courage just to help others in this realm of pursuing sexuality the way God intended. So thanks for being my guest today.
Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, thanks so much for letting me share. It's been a joy.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:40:57] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:42:03]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring, Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:04]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Feb 12, 2024
Monday Feb 12, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
224. Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn
Deuteronomy 29:29a (NKJV) "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us"
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
Are there any specific questions you recommend we ask our spouse periodically?
-
Will you elaborate on your finding that "men and women tend to have different insecurities that the process of sex can help heal or hurt"?
-
You write "Having a comfortable way to signal (and receive) openness or interest will create connection and prevent much pain." So, how can couples begin to develop their own private language or signals to communicate effectively in a healthy manner?
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Shaunti Feldhahn received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author, and popular speaker.
Today, Shaunti applies her analytical skills to investigate eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace. Her groundbreaking research-based books, such as For Women Only, The Kindness Challenge, and Thriving in Love & Money, have sold more than 3 million copies in 25 languages. Her books and studies are popular in homes, counseling centers, and corporations worldwide.
Shaunti (often with her husband, Jeff) has spoken around the world, sharing her findings with audiences ranging from churches to women’s and marriage conferences to arena events to youth camps and cruises (yes, those are particularly painful…). Her research and commentary are regularly featured in media as diverse as The Today Show, Focus on the Family, The New York Times and MomLife Today. Shaunti, Jeff, and their two children live in Atlanta and enjoy every minute of living life at warp speed.
Secrets of Sex and Marriage Website
Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce:
Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand
Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel
Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler
Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna
Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry
Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes
Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny
Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus
Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker
Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery
Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Patreon 52 God, Sex, and Your Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery
Shaunti's Previous Episode on The Savvy Sauce:
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:20] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Shaunti Feldhahn is my returning guest today. She's a social researcher and best-selling author, and she's going to share findings from her most recent project all around the topic of sexual intimacy in marriage.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Shaunti.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, thanks. It's so great to be back with you guys.
Laura Dugger: Well, you've been a guest previously when you spoke about understanding men and women better. [00:01:20] But today, I'm excited to learn about the discoveries from this fabulous book that you and Dr. Michael Sytsma recently co-authored entitled Secrets of Sex and Marriage.
So let's begin here. Logistically, how did you find people to survey and interview who felt comfortable enough sharing this information?
Shaunti Feldhahn: That is the question, right? When I first felt like I was being led in this direction and that God wanted us to tackle this topic, I was like, "You've got to be kidding me." Because, you know, all of our research projects, they all start with trying to find out how all of us like average people think and feel and the real issues and the stuff we don't get and where the pain points are. And I'm like, "How am I ever going to get information on this?"
And so thankfully... here's actually what happened, and it worked really well. [00:02:22] We ended up doing all the normal kind of anonymous interviews that I normally do with whoever is sitting next to me on the subway or whoever is next to me on the airplane. But I couldn't do that on this topic because, you know, I'd get arrested.
What we ended up doing was we did the anonymous interviews over Zoom with their cameras blacked out and with fake names. So Jeff and I did all the interviews together. They could see us like our camera was on, but we couldn't see them. We had no idea who they were. They picked fake names and some of them were hilarious, like, you know, Farm Boy and Buttercup or like Wanda and Vision. It was very sweet, but it allowed people to really share safely knowing that we had no idea who they were.
Laura Dugger: That's so creative. And I'd love to know, what findings were you most surprised with by this study? [00:03:27]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, you know, it's interesting. I'll be candid. Pretty much everything surprised me. One of the things that we try to do in all of our research projects is dig out the stuff that sort of surprises us average couples. One of the things we were focusing on was, what is it that we don't get? Because basically, we're trying to dig out the little things that make a big difference. And if people already know them, they would already be doing them most of the time. And so by definition, we were trying to dig out the stuff that surprised us that we didn't know mattered.
I partnered on this survey and on this project with this renowned sex therapist named Dr. Michael Sytsma, who's very, very well respected and looked to as one of the key leaders in the Christian community in this area. So nothing surprised him. He was like, "Yeah, heard that a million times." [00:04:27] But everything that we included actually surprised us.
If you want to know, probably my most important surprise, one of the things that we had covered in a couple of previous projects but even so, I found myself being like, "Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. I had no idea" is that when we're talking about physical intimacy as a couple, one of the things that is a really, really common dynamic is that when one partner... kind of just to put it kind of bluntly, one partner wants more connection in that way than the other. Like there's a little bit of a mismatch, which, by the way, is the case with 79% of couples. So the vast majority of us, one partner is kind of wanting more.
The assumption that's running into the surface is that the reason for that disconnect is that one person has a lower drive than the other and a lower libido. And yeah, that could sometimes be actually an accurate thing that they have a lower drive. [00:05:45] But we found that most of the disconnect isn't because of that.
One of the most important surprises to me is that within most couples, you're working with two different types of desire. And most of us don't even know that's a thing. That to me was the biggest like aha moment. I can explain the two different types of desire if you're interested.
Laura Dugger: Yes, please do, because these two types of desire manifest in the reverse order. So it's fascinating.
Shaunti Feldhahn: It really is. It's crazy. Like I said, we had covered this a little bit in For Women Only and For Men Only. But we went much more in-depth in this topic in this research project and learned all these things about the physiology that were just, well, like so helpful to know.
Basically, if you think about it, the version of what we think desire is, is what we see kind of in a movie. [00:06:47] Like it's the Hollywood idea where the guy and the girl kind of look at each other and there's a spark and they both have this sense of hunger for this. You know, they start kissing and pretty soon the clothes are off and they're in bed. Like that's the normal what you see on the screen.
And for many of us, it doesn't actually work that way and so we think something's wrong or our spouse thinks something is wrong. What we found out is that usually there's nothing wrong. I mean, yeah, sure, some people might have medical issues or whatever, but most of the time it's these two different types of desire. And that sort of Hollywood version where you feel that sense of hunger and you want to connect that you could call initiating desire.
But there's a second type of desire called receptive desire. The person with receptive desire generally actually has to decide to get engaged sexually. [00:07:48] What we found physiologically is that literally the desire works in the reverse order in the physiology where that person decides to get engaged. And then once their physiology starts getting stimulated, then they start feeling that desire that maybe their spouse felt five or ten minutes ago.
And that right there, that one like aha moment, because that is the majority of couples, one partner has initiating desire and one partner has receptive desire. Actually understanding that is like, wow. It makes such a difference because then neither of us feel like someone's broken. It just is so life-giving once we understand this.
Laura Dugger: Yes, because you make so many great points in that section about anticipation time kind of waking up that receptive partner. And possibly one of my favorite quotes of the book, just because it was summed up brilliantly, is where it says, "In general, for men, desire leads to sex, while for women, sex leads to desire." [00:09:00]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yep. And that is the case for the vast majority. Now, there are always exceptions, right? Like one of the things that was really interesting is that 73% of women have receptive desire, but 24% have initiating desire. You know, it's about this one-in-four thing. There's an exception.
Some of the women listening to this are going to recognize more of the initiating thing like for themselves. But for most of us as women, it really is life-changing to realize I am not weird. I am not broken.
Also, if we happen to have that receptive desire and our spouse happens to have that initiating desire, it's encouraging to our spouse, too. Because many wives told us that their husbands, you know, they thought that they just weren't desirable enough. [00:10:01] Like there's something wrong with them, that their wife just isn't as interested.
One of the things this allows us to do is to tell all the initiating desire people out there, which is usually going to be the husband, but not always, is that just so you know, you think, why isn't my spouse interested? Well, "interested" is an initiating desire word. Your spouse is interested, but that interest isn't activated until after they get going. And so they're making a decision knowing that it will be good eventually and wanting to connect.
Actually, that should be encouraging as well for all the initiating desire spouses out there. It's not the hunger that maybe they want us to have, but that hunger will arrive down the road.
Laura Dugger: It's just incredible how you've articulated this in a really practical way so that it's a book that couples can just read, maybe not even a chapter at a time out, loud with one another. [00:11:08] And I love how it's even brought in this third type of desire, which is intentional desire of, "Okay, it's been a little while. We've been really crazy with the kids and our schedules, but we know this is good for us. So we're going to pursue one another regardless of our actual desire."
Shaunti Feldhahn: Intentional desire sort of it overlaps with the others. And it's basically I want to want this, right? It's kind of like a couple of years ago, I unexpectedly found out that I have breast cancer and I had to go through all of the treatments and everything and they caught it early. It was fine. But one of the things that we realized pretty quickly is that my normal eating habits needed to change and they needed to be more intentional.
Because I'm always on the go. I'm always running from an airport to speak at a women's group somewhere or whatever and so I'm running through a fast food place and like, Okay, I don't actually want to eat healthy if I'm really honest, like I love sugar and I'm actually very happy with running through a drive through. [00:12:17] But no, I want to eat healthy. And it's sort of an intentional thing. And then I'm glad I did.
Actually the last year or two now, I'm so glad that I've started to eat more healthy to try to get my weight back in balance and try to get my health back in balance and prevent the cancer from coming back that now I'm actually enjoying it. I don't want to stop.
It's kind of that same thing when it comes to our intimate life is that intentionality. For many people, it actually stimulates that desire. Now, for some people, it's just always going to be a choice. But for many, when you want to want it and you sort of take steps towards it, then the chemicals get engaged and then you want it more and it becomes a positive cycle.
Laura Dugger: I love how you share all of that, because I think God really does meet us there when we give that to Him and say, "Okay, to be honest, I don't want this right now, but I want to want this. Can you help me?" Something good like that. He does provide that strength. So thank you for sharing that story. And I'm so grateful that you're in remission from cancer.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Aw, thanks. I appreciate that. [00:13:33]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: With over 1700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton. And with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company.
They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.
In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. They're beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. [00:14:37] And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments.
Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even many storage units available in some locations.
Leman Property Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions.
They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@Lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at Lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.
Laura Dugger: What are some common wrong assumptions that you found many couples making? [00:15:37] And then what's some truth that we can replace it with?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Okay, there's a couple. And I'll just give you an example based on what we were just talking about. One of the wrong assumptions is that my spouse is wired the same way as I am. Like there's just this one type of desire, for example.
So the truth to replace it with is, Okay, actually, it is highly likely that we are wired in two different ways. And that was God's choice. Like if you're upset that your spouse doesn't have initiating desire and you want them to be hungry for you, take that up with God and not with your spouse, because that's the wiring. Right?
Then another common wrong assumption is kind of like, well, it just is what it is. And so I'm just wired this way. And so there's nothing I can do about it and kind of deal with it. That's actually wrong, too, because we are called to care for one another and what matters to both of us, actually. [00:16:44]
The truth there is, is basically this concept that, you know what, we're always going to need to be mindful of this. This is something that the initiating desire spouse, for example, is going to have to be mindful to say, "Oh, wow, you know, my spouse is making a decision to engage with me. I need to see that as a beautiful thing and not something that's like less than." And to be grateful for that and to try to be that type of person that draws them in so they want to engage. And I'm always going to need to work on that. That's a good thing.
The person with receptive desire, for example, is probably always going to need to work on that intentionality and that mindfulness of wanting to want and recognizing how important this is for a marriage, both scientifically and biblically. We see that.
And so assuming that it's a healthy relationship and assuming that, you know, there's goodwill between both spouses and this isn't an abusive or controlling kind of thing, that working on that becomes a beautiful thing. [00:17:55] That truth of, you know what, this is something that I'm always going to want to be mindful about on both sides helps us to sort of get outside ourselves, which I think is really, really important in this area.
Laura Dugger: And with that mindset, you also conclude solutions do exist. And I think that gives everyone hope and hopefully some motivation to seek help in this if this is an area of struggle beyond what you're saying, that we need to always be mindful of this and working on it.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, exactly
Laura Dugger: Well, in marriage, then how can we use our wiring differences to create a dynamic love life?
Shaunti Feldhahn: One of the most crucial things that we found in this research project, I think one of the biggest surprises was about these two different types of desires. But one of the most important application pieces, one of the things that will make everything better is to basically be curious. [00:19:00] The need for each of us, both the husband and wife, to approach our spouse with sort of this curious stance.
One of the things we found actually, statistically, is that it's really common for us to just kind of go on autopilot sort of and make some assumptions about one another. And we're running around with all the different things of life and the kids and work and, you know, whatever is going on. So we're kind of operating based on this day-to-day sense of, and I hate to say this out loud, but this day-to-day sense of sort of cluelessness.
It's like we're just going about our day and we're no longer curious like we were at the beginning in our relationship. Or even worse, actually, and this does happen and this is a damaging thing, is sometimes we've veered over... We're no longer not just not curious and kind of clueless. We've sort of veered over into critical where "something is wrong with you" or the eye rolls or "Ow, I can't believe you said it that way. You know, forget it" or whatever. Like that kind of critical stance. [00:20:17]
Those two, the critical stance and the what you might call the clueless stance, are both really actually destructive to the marriage as a whole. One of the things that changes a lot, we found statistically, is that if you can snap back into that curious stance that you definitely had at the beginning, like, Okay, what matters to you? And I'm talking about big-picture marriage stuff, not just in the bedroom. Like, why is it that when I said such and such, I'm curious, why did that make you so upset? Like, what was going on in your mind and your heart when I said that about like, why did you let the kids run around outside without their shoes? Like, why did that make you upset?
And then it's like, "Oh, oh, you know, your spouse is articulating something like, well, I've been with them all day. So you could do your work thing, you know, on Zoom and they were having so much fun and here I was feeling like you were criticizing me for this one thing instead of saying "Thank you for taking the kids all day." [00:21:34] "Oh, Okay, got it. Sorry. I wasn't thinking."
And that's that curious stance of what matters to you. What do you feel about this? That's for everything in marriage. But then when you apply that especially to your intimate life and especially about what are you thinking and feeling here? What matters to you? What makes you uncomfortable and why? That kind of stuff, it really improves everything because it's basically an antidote to cluelessness and a criticism and contempt and just a bunch of other things that cause issues in a relationship.
Laura Dugger: Okay, Shaunti, then if we are wanting to remain curious, are there any other specific questions that you recommend we ask our spouse periodically? [00:22:34]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Absolutely. One of the most simple, superpower kind of questions is basically... and this is and this is you asking yourself or asking your spouse. But it's really more about asking yourself this, which is essentially, what's important to my husband, my spouse right now that I don't know that I need to know? Like what is mattering to them that I'm not aware of?
Actually, one of the ways we designed the book on purpose was to help people get at that question because we designed it so that the spouses could kind of read it together and read it out loud to each other.
I'll tell you something that just happened a few days ago. My husband and I were doing another podcast with another couple that does a lot of marriage stuff in their ministry. On their podcast, one of the things that they told us, which was so encouraging, was they said that they had gotten our book because probably like with you, our publisher sent a copy of the book so you could look at it and the producer could decide whether they wanted to have us on for the interview. [00:23:49]
And they said, "Oh, you know what, we have had this practice of taking just, you know, whatever book for several months and reading it out loud to one another in the evening. And often, you know, we'll read three or so pages a night and just talk about it." And they said, "We started your book as our book that we're going to be reading for the next few weeks or whatever." And they said, "We're not getting three pages a night. We're getting like three sentences a night. Because we start saying, "Is this you? And the other person is like, yes, that's me. And the other person is like, what? Tell me about this."
And so that of getting at what is important to my spouse right now that I need to know, that really is this superpower question that will help improve everything in marriage.
Laura Dugger: I love that. You're right. Sometimes the best questions that are going to unlock deep conversation are really the most simple. [00:24:52] So that's a really helpful application for today.
Were there any other surprising discoveries that we haven't discussed yet?
Shaunti Feldhahn: I'll tell you another sort of surprise that was a really interesting one for me, which was that... Okay, this is going to sound really weird, but I'm going to say it anyway. Most couples don't actually realize that one of the reasons for disappointment... You know how that sort of dynamic where somebody thought something was going to happen tonight and then it doesn't and then the other spouse feels like this pressure, like, wait, you were expecting something. You know, that kind of that disappointment and pressure dynamic? Well, it turns out one of the reasons for that is that we just don't have a good process for initiation, which people listening to this are probably like, what are you talking about? But really, truly, it's a huge deal. I was so surprised that so many of those hurt feelings can actually be prevented if both spouses have a signal, like there's some way of signaling interest or openness. [00:26:10]
Like one of the things that I thought was hilarious was I was talking to our co-author, Dr. Michael Sytsma and he was telling me something that had just happened in his therapy office recently, where he had a couple that were really, really disconnected around this area and the husband said, "My wife just doesn't ever want it. She's just never interested." And his wife said, "Well, yeah, I am. I mean, I may not feel it at the beginning, but I know I will when I get going. And so I'm open to it." And he's like, "But you never show me that you're open." And she said, "Last night we were sitting on the couch watching news and I put my hand on your knee." And the husband was like, "That was you initiating?"
And it was this thing where they just had never talked about like, What are the signals? What are the things that we know means I'm open, I'm not, I'm interested. Can we do this another night? [00:27:16]
A lot of couples we found in the survey, the vast majority, and this was a nationally representative survey, the vast majority had no signals. But the ones that did were far more likely to connect.
Laura Dugger: Wow, isn't that interesting? Going back to that connection, it's back to the foundation of remaining curious, having that stance, and communicating.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. One of the best stories, it cracked me up,one of the couples, they had this thing where the wife who is the receptive desire spouse, when she would come home from her shift as a pharmacist, she would discreetly write on their mirror in erasable ink and erasable marker. She would write a number on the mirror between 1 and 10. And her husband would sneak upstairs and check it like, you know, they help the kids' dinner and homework and activities and you know, whatever. [00:28:18] But the number was basically how receptive am I feeling tonight?
Laura Dugger: Wow.
Shaunti Feldhahn: And it was like, "If it was an eight to ten, it's basically like, "I'm a sure bet if you ask" kind of thing. One to four was, and I thought this was hilarious. One to four she said was, stay back if you want to keep your parts. And that five to seven was basically like, I'm not sure. Like, maybe. Maybe not. Let's talk about it. Not sure.
But that basically helped completely prevent, 100% prevent that sense of anticipation and expectation and something's going to happen and wait, they're tired. It really allowed the couple to communicate about it well, and set expectations with one another well. I loved that example. I thought it was brilliant.
Laura Dugger: Goodness, couples are so creative. [00:29:23] I love that. Will you elaborate on your finding, and I'll just quote you here, that men and women tend to have different insecurities that the process of sex can help heal or hurt?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. So going all the way back to the research on for women only about understanding the inner lives of men, and for men only, which is helping men understand the inner lives of women, one of the least understood things that often causes problems, and this, by the way, causes a lot of issues in a lot of areas of marriage, not just in physical intimacy, but it has a direct application here, is the reality that for most men and for most women, and I'm talking about depending on our survey, it was somewhere in the 75 to 85% range for men and 75 to 85% range for women, which means, by the way, again, there's that exception, quotient, right? [00:30:30]
Laura Dugger: Mm-hmm.
Shaunti Feldhahn: But that we tend to have different primary insecurities and vulnerabilities and self-doubts that are running under the surface. And it's kind of a painful raw nerve and we withdraw when that raw nerve is hit in some way.
Women's insecurity in general is basically, am I lovable? That's kind of what's running on the surface, which is one of the reasons that we love to feel loved, because it speaks to that and it says you are lovable for who you are as a person on the inside, right?
But for men, in most cases, again, not all, but in most cases, the insecurity is actually really different. It's not am I lovable, but am I able? Am I adequate? Do I measure up? You could basically say and summarize it as am I any good at what I do on the outside? [00:31:31]
So women are more like, am I worthy of being loved for who I am on the inside? Men are much more questioning, am I any good at what I do on the outside?
And when there's pain in the relationship, men, if that raw nerve is hit, if again, like he's been outside with the kids and you come outside and like, why are you letting them run around with other shoes, that's saying you're no good at what you do. We don't think of it that way, but that's what he's hearing. "What you did on the outside, it wasn't good enough. You failed." And it's painful. It's because of that insecurity it's a raw nerve.
And if a man feels that self-doubt and that vulnerability regularly hit, he tends to kind of pull back emotionally. He shuts down. He becomes passive. He stops talking. He might get angry. It's a signal of pain. [00:32:31]
For us as women, again, this is not 100%, but when we're hurt as women and feeling like I'm not lovable, he doesn't love me, it's too easy for him to spend all the time at the office and he doesn't talk anymore, we withdraw not just kind of emotionally, we actually withdraw sexually in the bedroom. We're not going to be as open. We're not going to be as interested.
And yet when we try to attend to these two different sets of vulnerabilities, what ends up happening is that both of us become more open. Like our husband, many women have noticed that when they are being intentional about that physical intimacy and having that intentional desire, that they notice that their husband is just much more tender and he's much more warm and more attentive. [00:33:33] That's like a signal of him feeling cared for. That's his signal.
So for us, our signal is on a lot of sorts of things, but we're also more open in the bedroom, usually. That's an example of just how important this is. It's all wrapped up in those insecurities.
Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life. What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that has improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info at The Savvy Sauce.com.
You've documented, I'll just give an example from your book for both women and men, because this practically may be very helpful to some couples to understand one another. [00:34:39] You wrote, "As one woman put it, I know that my body climaxing almost has more to do with how close I feel to my husband than it does the physical act."
And then from the husband's point of view, you had written, "If you want to, you can press the reset button on your husband any time." Also it make me giggle. Those are so helpful.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah, it's interesting. And it's also controversial to some degree. Because some people say, are you talking about manipulating him with your body? Like, that's what some people are going to hear from that.
The reality is actually not the way you're thinking, because this is where both people want it this way, where he is longing for connection in that example, and you want that connection as well. And just recognize is that this actually speaks in a very deep way to that question of "am I able?" inside that he has. And feeling desirable really speaks to that. [00:35:48] And so this is a mutual way of showing one another that you care.
In today's world, it's a controversial question, it's a controversial issue. And all I'm doing is saying, these are the numbers. This is something that if you feel like that there are some issues there in your relationship, think about caring for one another in what matters to the other person's vulnerabilities and speaking into that. Because it really does... in most cases, it speaks life to that person.
Laura Dugger: And on this topic of insecurities, would you mind sharing a lesson that one 81-year-old woman taught you?
Shaunti Feldhahn: I was telling this to a women's group not that long ago. I was doing a multi-speaker women's conference. I was asking the organizers if I could tell this story because it's a little bit spicy. [00:36:51]
But it was just so perfect on this topic, because I was actually at another women's event a number of years ago and we were talking about this topic and about the insecurities inside. The woman who had founded this women's conference, like 40-something years before she was now 81 years old.
She was talking about how important it was that at this women's conference that we did talk a bit about intimacy. Like it's such a big deal. We needed to talk about it and the insecurities playing in. And she said she had been at a women's Bible study... She had an 87-year-old husband; she and her husband had been married for a lot of years. And she had been at a women's Bible study, where the apparently the Bible study teacher had addressed these insecurities and said, "You know what, we have to get across to ourselves that in Christ, we are loved and we are beautiful and we are accepted, just as we are with all of our imperfections." [00:37:58] And that that, you know, helps in our life in many ways, including our intimate life.
So she said the teacher of this Bible study said we have so many insecurities about our bodies, for example, that she said the next time that you get out of the shower, you drop that towel and you look in the bathroom mirror and you ask yourself, am I loved and accepted and beautiful just as I am?
So this 81-year-old lady said she did that the day before and she got out of the shower and she asked herself in the mirror, am I loved, accepted, and beautiful just as I am? And she hears this chuckle and she turns her head and there is her 87-year-old husband lying on the bed in the bedroom and he goes, "Yes, you are, and bring it over here, baby."
I love that so much, partly because I just love that story, but also because of what it says that we have found also in the numbers in this nationally representative survey, which is that if we can understand some of these things around one another and tend to one another's insecurities and vulnerabilities, there is no reason in the world, even if our bodies stop working perfectly as we get older and older, there's no reason in the world that we can't still have a rich, intimate life together. [00:39:32]
Being creative and caring for one another well into our 80s and 90s, even that when people are probably raising their eyebrows at that, but I've asked many sex therapists that question and they all say, Oh, yes, absolutely. So that to me is encouraging.
Laura Dugger: Love it. Because that just perfectly illustrate just the playfulness and the sense of humor, laughter, and fun that it can add to enrich your marriage. But let's also circle back to something that you had covered a little while ago about us missing each other's signals and having miscommunications that often lead to hurt. Because you're right, "Having a comfortable way to signal and receive openness or interest will create connection and prevent much pain."
So Shaunti, how can couples begin to develop their own private language or signals to communicate effectively in a healthy manner? [00:40:36]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, that example of writing the number on the mirror of how open am I feeling tonight, those kinds of examples is something that you're just going to have to your spouse about. And the easiest way to do it to get started is essentially, what do we already do? What is it that already is a bit of a thing?
Like one couple, their particular schedule was such that there was a lot of running around to get the kids out the door for school early in the morning. And then they had a couple of hours before they had to each be at their individual jobs. So they took showers and everything after they got the kids to school, which obviously a lot of families do.
One of the things that they had talked about that they didn't even realize was like an official signal, but they could turn it into one, is as they're running around the kitchen with the kids, one of them would ask the other, so you getting ready to take your shower? [00:41:43] And they would raise their eyebrows. And that was sort of an invitation to "you want to join me?" And of course, the kids are like 8 years old, they have no idea what's going on.
But that was an example of something that they didn't realize was a thing. When we started asking them, like, how do you know whether you want to connect or not, that was the kind of story we heard and realized, Oh, wait, that could become an official example of as opposed to just when it happens occasionally. And so it's that kind of stuff that you're developing your own private language in order to communicate well.
Now, let me just say, and this is really important, there are going to be some couples that have significant heartache and pain in this area, because maybe the communication is broken down, maybe the relationship has broken down, you know, maybe there's been trauma that has kind of gotten in the way and you think it's a bridge too far to try to figure out how to get some sort of signal going that we already are doing because we're not doing anything. [00:42:55]
That's an example of where if there is some significant pain that has been built up, there's maybe some work that has to be done first before you go into that. Sometimes the work is just, you know, reading the book out loud to one another and going, Oh, my gosh, I had no idea. I'm so sorry. You know, like understanding one another more, getting curious, like we talked about.
But sometimes it's really important to say, "You know what, there are some pieces of the puzzle here that we need somebody to help us figure out. We need to be able to figure out how to communicate more effectively on this." And to go see a counselor, go see a therapist, even if it's just for a few visits.
To be able to say, "We have some issues in communicating, especially around this area, but really all areas that we need to figure out in order to get better in the more intimate areas of our life." [00:43:58] So that's something for people to just be aware of is that there are things that you can do, but you do actually in some cases have to do them before you can connect well.
Laura Dugger: That's such a good word because help is available. Some couples listening may absolutely be benefited by seeking that out. If anybody wants to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you direct us?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Probably the most important starting point, we actually... and when I say we, I mean Dr. Michael Sytsma and me and Jeff, we created a website called secretsofsexandmarriage.com. So it's the exact same as the book title. So secretsofsexandmarriage.com.
One of the things that we were, and still are, we're continuing to add to it all the time that we were doing is wanting to build up a central resource, I guess, so that if people are like, Oh, wow, I recognize I need a little help in this area, or, you know, what about my husband has a problem with pornography, or, well, we're not having sex as much because I have like significant sexual pain or stuff that's more specialized, right? [00:45:17]
One of the things we wanted to do and have done on that website is we've created a bunch of resources for people on those particular areas. And we're adding more all the time. And, and this is probably the most important piece, is that if someone needs a little bit of extra help, we have some ways that that person can get some referral resources to find a specialist in whatever the area is.
Because that's the thing that's really encouraging. There is no reason in the world that most of these problems can't be solved. Most of them absolutely can. And that was one of the most encouraging things about working with a sex therapist on this project is stuff that I saw is like, Oh, my gosh, that's a really big issue. He's like, no, no, no, we deal with this all the time. It's fine. So that's helpful and encouraging.
Often something can be started, even if only one partner wants to start it, and just get some counsel and advice. [00:46:21]
Laura Dugger: It's so good. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. Additionally, we have at least 50 episodes that are free on The Savvy Sauce that do discuss all of these different areas of sexual intimacy in marriage.
So I will add links to those as well. But just for fun, Shaunti, are there any funny family stories? Because there were three out of the four members of your family that were working together on this project. Is that right?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, my gosh, I do not know how you found that. That was hidden in the acknowledgments of the book. Yes, there is a funny family story. Because Dr. Mike and I, after we do all the interviews and the anonymous interviews and whatever, we always do these big surveys, right? These nationally representative surveys. We get really good data. It's really expensive.
And this data is purchased at a cost, basically. Like for this project, it was $120,000 project and so the analysis of this precious data becomes really important. [00:47:34] We had a PhD graduate student working with us to do a lot of the number crunching and, you know, do a lot of the analysis because we could do it but, you know, we just don't have time to do that and the writing and some other analysis and all the other stuff we were doing.
So we had this graduate PhD student working with us. And we get the data in and about a week later... I mean, it's not funny, but a week later, she has this like family emergency where she has to move back to where she's from because her dad, I guess had a stroke or needed a lot of medical attention, and they needed her help.
And she said, "I'm so sorry, I'm not going to be able to work on this project." And we're like, "Oh, my gosh, this is May. By now there's no way to find somebody else who could do a summer job," because this is basically a summer job for a graduate student or whatever. "And there's no way that we're going to be able to find somebody who's that good. And we have the book to turn in." Like this was devastating. [00:48:39] And I asked Jeff, I'm like, "What are we going to do? We don't have anybody to analyze the data. And he kind of looks at me funny and he says, "Um, I think she's living upstairs."
Because our daughter who is an engineering student, which is heavily quantitative, heavily math-oriented, our daughter's internship for the summer had actually fallen through. And I realized, Oh, my gosh, we don't need a PhD graduate student in sexual therapy. We just need somebody who's really good at quantitative analysis.
So we went to our at-the-time 20-year-old daughter. And we're like, "Um, how would you feel about being the analyst on this project with your mother and father about sex?" [00:49:30] And the poor girl is like, "Okay, I need a job, I need the income, you need my help, but you are paying for my therapy." It actually ended up working really well. She just basically pretended that she was not working for her mother and father. She just pretended this was a job like any other job. And she did a great job.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Fortunately, you've met and worked with many wonderful therapists through the years. So that works out well. And I'm just wondering what family conversations would look like around the table then because three out of the four are working on it.
Shaunti Feldhahn: None. Zero. I'm quite sorry, but she put on her little professional hat and she's like, "Okay, let's analyze the orgasm questions here. Here's the orgasm answers." And she's like, "Just so you know, I'm pretending I'm not having this conversation with you." So, no, none of those conversations happened around the family dinner table. Because we pretended we were not members of the same family for those professional conversations.
Laura Dugger: My word. Thank you for giving us a glimpse into what that would actually look like. That definitely provides some laughs.
Shaunti, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:50:57]
Shaunti Feldhahn: So it's actually I wouldn't have been able to put it this way until this project. But my savvy sauce is curiosity. That's my encouragement for everybody is there is life-changing stuff that happens when you try to understand your spouse better in whatever the area is right, not just this area, but kind of recognizing and being able to look under the surface and being able to see like the vulnerable person underneath that confident exterior.
So understanding that you are trying to dig out, trying to investigate and actually, trying to speak to that inner person, you know, that tender heart that's on the inside, that is life-changing once you can do that.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Shaunti, as always, you were such a cheerful and helpful and knowledgeable guest today. So thank you for being my guest.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Absolutely. It's such a pleasure to be with you. [00:52:08]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:53:08] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:54:07] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:55:12] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Feb 05, 2024
Monday Feb 05, 2024
223. Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence
Jonah 2:8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
Will you tell us about meeting your (now) husband for the first time and share a bit of your love story?
-
What unique joys and sorrows did your family experience as you raised children in a political family in Washington DC?
-
Will you tell us more about your experience with the Secret Service, both for you and for them?
Karen Pence is a former congressional spouse, first lady of Indiana, and second lady of the United States. She worked as a schoolteacher for more than thirty years and started her own watercolor business. She is also the mother of three married children and a grandmother. She lives with her family in Zionsville, Indiana.
Connect with Karen Pence on X or Instagram
When It's Your Turn to Serve by Karen Pence
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.
My guest today is former First Lady of Indiana and former Second Lady of the United States, Mrs. Karen Pence. She recently documented her interesting life journey in a book entitled When It's Your Turn to Serve: Experiencing God's Grace in His Calling for Your Life.
We're going to get to hear a little bit more of her back story through this conversation. But I do want to let you know up front, we had a few issues with the audio quality, and I do apologize. [00:01:22] But I also want to encourage you to stay with us, because what is lacking in audio quality is certainly made up for in quality conversation and storytelling, because Mrs. Pence has so much goodness to share.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mrs. Pence.
Karen Pence: Great to be here, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Well, will you start by just first giving us a glimpse into your current phase of life?
Karen Pence: Yes, you know, it's interesting because Mike and I are at that stage now where we raise our kids. They're all married and we have three precious little granddaughters.
It's an interesting time for us. You know, we've spent most of our married life being in public service, serving in political office. Now we're serving, you know, as private citizens. And so it's interesting to see where God is leading us and the opportunities that He's bringing our way. [00:02:25] Because, you know, one thing that we've learned over the years is that God can use us wherever He wants to. So it's an exciting time for us just to kind of see what God's plans are for us now.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Let's also just back it up a few years. Will you tell us about the first time you met your now husband and just share a little bit of your love story?
Karen Pence: Yes, actually it's a funny story. Mike tells it really... it's hysterical to hear him tell it. But I was actually playing guitar in a guitar group in a worship group in church. He came up to me after the service and actually said he wanted to join the guitar group. And I said, "Well, you would need to talk to the guy with the beard." At that point, he stuck out his hand and said, "I'm Mike Pence." And I realized that was just his ploy to meet me. [00:03:26]
Although he could have followed it up. He actually does play guitar and he's played in some worship groups before. But he was in law school, and I said, "Oh, my sister's in law school, too." So he looked her up, got her phone number, and called her house. But I was at her house the day that he called. I was watching her two kids and I was the one who answered the phone. And when he found out it was me, I think he got a little bit scared and actually hung up on me. Then he called right back and we laughed about it.
But our first date was taking those two ice skating and the rest is history.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that so much. One other coincidental thing that you mention in your book is that first conversation took place at a church that you write was right across the street from the Indiana governor's residence where we would serve 30 years later. [00:04:25]
Karen Pence: Yeah. It's funny because it's literally right across the street. Little did we know that God was going to bring us full circle and actually have us serve and live in the governor's residence years later.
Laura Dugger: Well, something else that I also appreciate in your book, you quote scripture throughout, but there's some powerful words in the Bible specifically from Jonah 2:8. So will you share that scripture and elaborate how God has used those words to guide you throughout the year?
Karen Pence: Well, I'm glad you asked about that, Laura, because in my book, When It's Your Turn to Serve, one of the things I try and do is encourage the reader to be willing to step out if you feel God's call on your life. I certainly never anticipated that I was going to end up being the second lady of the United States.
But when we first started out, we had just bought a little house and we were so excited. [00:05:29] It was the first home that we had owned, but it was outside of the congressional district. And when Mike and I had decided to go ahead and make that first run for Congress, we realized we're going to have to move. We felt we should live in the district and the district encompassed the area where I taught and the area where he had lived his whole life and grown up. And so we had to move to run.
The verse that we clung to that first campaign, Jonah 2:8, "Is those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs." So for us, the worthless idol was the little house that we had just bought, because by letting go of that and following God's calling, it led to so many opportunities through the years.
I think back to what if we hadn't been willing to give up that little house, all of the opportunities that we would have missed over the years. It's not always easy to give up, you know, those idols, but I find that when we do, we experience God's grace. That's the subtitle of my book is Experiencing God's Grace in His Calling for Your Life. [00:06:52] When he calls us, he truly does give us the grace.
And so for us, many times we've had to say, Okay, are we clinging to some worthless idol right now? Are we afraid of stepping out and trusting God? And so it's actually a verse that we have carried with us for 38 years of marriage.
Laura Dugger: Yes, it certainly seemed to play out multiple times throughout your life. There was one pivotal conversation when Mike was just questioning someone for how to prepare now to run for Congress in his 50s. So will you share that story?
Karen Pence: Right. I mean, it was interesting because he and a friend decided to go speak to the county chairman. Because Mike and I at that time, when we were first married, he was the precinct committeeman and I was the vice committeewoman. And it was a great opportunity for us to start getting involved in politics. Because when you're the precinct committeeman, you go around to your neighbors, you get them registered to vote, you work at the polls on Election Day. [00:08:00] It's just a great way to meet all of the people in your community.
So Mike decided to go to the county chairman and say, Okay, this is what we're doing right now. But what should we be doing in addition to that in case I decide to run for Congress years later? And the county chairman simply said, "You should run. You should run right now. Because the best way to learn about running for an office is just to jump in with both feet and run for office." And so that's what we did.
It's interesting because we didn't win that election. We didn't win the next election either. It would be 12 years later that we ran one more time and actually Mike won his run for Congress.
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is relatable that even when we hear through maybe somebody else speaking some encouragement into our life, that God still has a plan in that timing, even though it's maybe unexpected. [00:09:05] But as your family grew and you added children, can you elaborate on more ways that God's timing was different than your own, but perfect overall?
Karen Pence: Yes. Because, you know what, Laura? I want to say all I ever wanted was to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted. I was an elementary teacher then. Actually, I taught all the way through my time at Second Lady. But I was teaching school. I loved kids. I just wanted to be a mom.
What we found was God wasn't bringing us children when we first got married. I was 28 when we got married, and it actually took us six years before I got pregnant with our first, Michael. So I was 34 when we had our first child and 38 when we had our third.
You know, for any of your listeners who may be struggling with infertility, or maybe you're trying to get a certain job and it's not working out, or you're wanting to buy a home, or you're wanting to find your mate, your partner, and the timing just, you know, you keep having to wait and wait and wait. [00:10:18] God's timing is perfect. When you're in the midst of it, it doesn't seem that way.
I remember thinking, "I don't understand this. I'm an elementary teacher. I don't have these big desires to be wealthy or famous or have some huge career. I just want to be a mom." And everyone around us was having babies.
I tell the story in the book. I remember being at one Easter brunch and my little niece leaned over and said to me, "Auntie Karen, why don't you have any babies?" And I said, "I don't know. God hasn't brought me any babies yet." And so for me, I couldn't understand why God wasn't bringing us babies. We wanted them now. We were ready. Mike was working. I was working. I'd had many years of my career already.
But what I found was His timing was perfect. [00:11:19] Because by the time we did go to Washington, our kids were elementary age, the lower elementary age. And if we had had them when we wanted to, they would have been teenagers when Mike got elected to Congress. And I don't know if I would have wanted to move teenage kids to Washington. It might have been a little more difficult.
And so the way that God's timing worked out, by the time we went to Washington, they were in elementary school. And when we went there, it was also another miracle that I got a job teaching art in their school. So all of these things kind of when you look back on your life, you have the wisdom of age and experience to kind of look back and say, "I get it. That's why you didn't want us to have kids when we wanted to have kids." And the timing, when I look back, is just absolutely perfect. [00:12:19]
I look at the people that my kids met who are their spouses now and their experiences and the friends they made in school and how they've been lifelong friends. It's just all of these little things go together. And God knew, no, I'm not going to bring you children until I know it's the perfect time.
Laura Dugger: What you did is so unique because you really stayed together as a family unit. I'm curious, what unique joys and sorrows did your family experience as you raised your children in a political family in Washington, D.C.?
Karen Pence: Well, you know, it's interesting when we decided to move to Washington after Mike won, it's a difficult thing in politics when you're elected to Congress because Congress serves in Washington, D.C., but your home is in another state. And it's difficult for these congressional families. [00:13:21] And they all make whatever choice works best for their family.
We found, for us, that we wanted to be together as a family. So Mike hit it head-on with our constituents and he just said, "You know, I ran on family values and so for me, I'm keeping my family with me." And so we moved with him to Washington. We still had our home in Indiana. We kept that. We would come back on weekends and summer. And when Mike would come back to the district, he would stay there.
But we knew that we needed to be where Mike was. He still did 52 town halls a year in his congressional district, came back all the time. What we did was we started kind of incorporating him taking one of the kids with him. So maybe Audrey would go with him for a weekend. You know, here she was a little first grader, second grader. She would introduce her dad at events and pass out flyers and they'd go out to dinner together. [00:14:30]
And so we tried to kind of make it a family thing, even when Mike had to travel back to the district. We just wanted him to be where we were and we wanted to be where he was the majority of his time. We would take dinner to the Capitol. We would have tacos on the steps of the Capitol or we would bring root beer floats and make them for him and the staff. Or we'd go to the restaurant across the street from the Capitol. And he would be able to leave and come to soccer games or puppet shows or parent-teacher conferences and then head back for votes. So for us, it really worked out well for us to be with him.
I remember when we were sitting on the front porch of our home in Arlington, Virginia, with the moving truck packed and we were heading back to Indiana after 12 years in Congress and Mike was going to run for governor. [00:15:31] I sat there on the porch with him and he got tears in his eyes and he looked at me and said, "Thank you." And I said, "What are you thanking me for?" And he said, "Thank you for moving here and for me not missing any of this."
It was a way that he was intimately involved in in our day-to-day life and the neighbors and the kids at school and the church. So for us, we decided to keep our family together.
But every congressional family has to do it however they need to. You know, if I were a dentist and Mike was elected to Congress, I wouldn't want to just move my whole dental practice to Washington. So, you know, there are situations where the spouses and the family can't move. But for us, that's what worked best for us.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing your story. And I'm sure it's one that, like Mike even mentioned, you don't have regrets then when you look back. [00:16:33] But it's apparent that parenting is so important to both of you. I love this quote from page 61 where you're talking about parenting and you write, quote, "I learned to rely on my faith, my friends, and to read everything I could about how to parent any particular age," end quote. I just thought that was so applicable to all of us parents.
I just want to share one other quote that's from page 29, where you write, "When your life seems to be going on smoothly, that's usually when God puts it into a blender. And He had such different plans for us, plans way beyond what we ever could have imagined or planned for. Amazing plans. Not easy, but amazing."
So, Mrs. Pence, will you take us into that part of your life when things really started to rapidly change?
Karen Pence: You know, Laura, when you say that, there are like about 10 or 15 times in my life where that's happened. [00:17:38] It wasn't really just one. But I mean, it does seem that way, that God... you know, He wants us on our knees and He wants us dependent on Him.
When we decided to go ahead and run for Congress that third time, our kids were, you know, five, six, and seven. We had built our dream home. I had started my watercolor practice and Mike had his own talk radio show. I mean, we were set... Our kids cemented their handprints in the driveway. I mean, this was where we knew we are going to live in this home the whole time we raise our kids. We are set.
And that's when the seat became an open seat and people started approaching Mike to run again for Congress. This time, I really did have to give up the idol of this dream home. And we were established and our kids were all in school. [00:18:42] That was when I really had to say, "Lord, you want me to raise my kids in Washington, D.C.? How could you possibly want that for us?" So we really struggled with that decision.
Actually, I tell the story in the book about how I took Mike to a dude ranch for his 40th birthday. It was a surprise gift. One day he and I rode horses up to the top of this bluff in the Teddy Roosevelt National Forest. And we got off of our horses, and we were trying to make a decision that week whether or not we were going to run a third time. It would mean a lot of sacrifices for us, and it would mean really changing our life completely.
We were sitting there on that bluff, and Mike said, "We've got to make a decision." And right then, these two red-tailed hawks were just rising on the wind and they weren't flapping their wings, but they were lifting higher and higher, just rising on the wind currents. [00:19:48]
Mike is romantic. He looked out, and he said, "You know, those two red-tailed hawks are like us." And I said, "Well, if those two hawks are like us, then I think we should run. But this time, we should do it with no flapping. We should step off of this cliff. And if God wants to lift us up like He is the hawks, then we'll let Him take us where He wants us to go."
Because the first two times we had run, Laura, we had been pretty arrogant and pretty full of ourselves. Honestly, we really thought Mike and Karen Pence are going to be God's gift to Washington, D.C. I really believe that's why God did not let us be successful then. Because this third run that was going to totally change our whole lives, we were completely dependent on Him. And we wanted Him to be in control, and we just wanted to make ourselves available. [00:20:50]
I think that's one of the lessons that I try and share throughout the book, is that you can experience God's grace in His calling for your life. Not your decision on what you want to do for your life, but what He wants you to do. That story we share with every staff member, every staff retreat, because we don't want anyone even around us or on our staff who is doing it just for selfish purposes.
Once again, here he was governor, again, our life just got thrown into the blender when Donald Trump called and asked him to run as his running mate. Again, it was that giving up our second run for governor, giving up living in Indiana, going on the campaign trail.
So a lot of the experiences that I share in the book are some of the sacrifices and struggles of following God's call. [00:21:52] But I also hope that people see woven throughout the blessings and the grace that God just showered us with and continues to shower us with. I think that fulfillment in life comes from accepting His call and being open to His call.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertchi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. [00:22:52]
They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.
I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.
Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for "Sam Leman Eureka". You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: I just want to zero in on one of those topics. When he receives this phone call from Donald Trump, were the two of you surprised at that point, or what were your thoughts and details of that chapter? [00:23:53]
Karen Pence: You know, that was a surprise. I think the reason it was such a surprise for me was because when we actually went to Bedminster and met with Donald and Melania Trump and had dinner with them and talked about the possibility — we knew he was looking at other people then — at the end of the dinner, he said to Mike, "Well, you know, this will work out okay for you. I mean, we'll find a place for you. We'll find a place for you in the administration."
I said to Mike after dinner, heading back to our room, I said, "Well, he's not picking you. I mean, he made it very clear that he'll find a place for you in the administration, but he's not going to pick you for his vice president." So when he called, it truly was quite a surprise. It was really a surprise.
Laura Dugger: I was fascinated then if we fast forward to when you are in that chapter where your husband is the vice president, you're the second lady of the United States. [00:24:58] And I was so fascinated by this chapter on Secret Service. So will you tell us more about that experience, both for you and for them?
Karen Pence: You know, it's interesting. One of the things I try to do in the book is tell some of the behind-the-scenes stories that people don't necessarily hear about. Like what's it like to move to the vice president's residence? I mean, how do you get furniture? How do you move in?
And I think one of the things that most people ask me about is the Secret Service, because, you know, in our culture, we hold the Secret Service in such high esteem. These are men and women who literally put their lives on the line every day. It's a very humbling thing to have someone willing to do that who really doesn't know Karen Pence very well. [00:25:57]
One of the things that I wanted to do was I wanted to do a chapter on the Secret Service. I included in that chapter a little speech that I gave at one of our very last Christmas parties at the vice president's residence. It was after the election and the Secret Service families were all there celebrating with us.
I wanted the families to know how much we value them and how much we value the Secret Service members. And so I told a couple of little stories to the families there, because what they may not realize is that the Secret Service puts their lives on the line for that office holder. It's not necessarily Mike and Karen Pence, but they know that they have to protect the United States seat of government and they have to protect the principles because it would have effects all over the world if something happened to the vice president. [00:27:06] So they really take their job very seriously.
But what people may not understand is they frequently have to move. I tell in the book about how we moved 18 times and the pros and cons of that. But these Secret Service families have the same difficulties. They also have to serve at a moment's notice for whatever we decide to do. So we might call up our lead agent and say, "You know what, I think we want to go for a bike ride today." So, boom, immediately they've got to get everybody in place. They've got to get their bikes out. They've got to get our bikes out. They've got to go to a bike path that they've already scouted out in their free time.
It's a complicated thing just to go for a bike ride or go to a movie or to get some ice cream at the grocery store or whatever, take a walk. And so it's a kind of job where they don't really know what their job is going to entail each and every day. [00:28:06]
For me, when I went back to teaching at the school where I had taught art for 12 years when my kids were there, when Mike was in Congress, called me when I was second lady and said, "Our art teacher just left and we would love it if you could maybe just fill in or can you just help us out a little bit?" And I ended up teaching there for my last three years as second lady. Even during that time, there would be Secret Service agents out in the hallway.
It's a very strange thing to have someone around you all the time. One of the things that they do in the Secret Service is they rotate and change your detail all the time. So I would just get used to the people on my detail.
There would usually be six to eight people who were assigned to me at any one time. Then they would come to me and say, "Okay, they're moving on. They're going to their next assignment," and I'd get brand new people. [00:29:14]
It's a little bit daunting to have new people. Sometimes I'd walk out to the car and I'd say, "I hope you guys are the real people because I've never seen you before and you're a brand new person with me today." So it's kind of a daunting thing to have someone who is constantly around you that you don't necessarily know very well.
Then on the flip side, you know, I tell the story in the book about how amazing... I talk about one agent, Max Million, who was our very first agent starting at the convention and going all the way through until he took over. He was with Kamala Harris on the day she took her oath. So Max was with us the whole time. He traveled with our daughter, Audrey, when she took foreign trips as a college student.
You know, imagine being a college student who has a Secret Service agent with you all the time. It's pretty annoying to a college student. [00:30:18] They had their good moments and their bad moments.
But when Audrey got married, Max is the agent she wanted to be on her detail that day. It's a very sweet thing to work through some of these difficulties with these agents because we're brand new to this. This is their life. But they very graciously kind of help us to adjust to having them there all the time. But they are wonderful men and women. Truly, truly wonderful men and women.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I learned so much from your chapter and just really grew in empathy for you both as you let us in on the things we wouldn't be aware of, how they were outside your bathroom and down the hall as you got a late-night snack or, like you said, in college, along for your kids' dates and just always having eyes watching. But then really also you flip the script so well. And we consider their family life having to be so flexible to change plans with little notice. [00:31:27] So I really appreciated that.
But you've been both First Lady of Indiana and Second Lady of the United States, which are roles that all of us listening will probably never have the chance to experience. So will you let us in on any other surprising parts of both of these roles of service?
Karen Pence: Well, one of the things I wanted to do when I wrote the book and my staff said to me, "If you don't write a book, we're going to write it" because there were a lot of great initiatives that we were able to champion.
When I became first lady, I just felt like, "Okay, now people are taking my phone call. I mean, I actually am in a position of influence. What am I going to do with that opportunity?" Because the time is short. That's one of the things I try and encourage the reader to think about in your own life. [00:32:28] Your opportunities sometimes are just for a short period of time. And for me, that was true.
So as first lady of Indiana, one of the things I did, I tell the story about how a friend of mine, Patty Coons, kept coming to me and saying, "You need to have a first lady's luncheon like we do in Washington every year. You're the first lady of Indiana now and you need to do this." I actually reached a point where I was afraid to even answer her phone call. Finally, I said, "Patty, I can't give a luncheon for myself. That doesn't even make any sense."
However, I found as I, you know, grew into the role of first lady at many, many, many organizations wanted me to champion their cause, but I knew I couldn't do that. So what I ended up doing was I started the Indiana First Lady's Charitable Foundation. We did have a first lady's luncheon, a very high-end luncheon, custom tablecloths, a surprise entertainer, custom gift bags for every attendee. [00:33:43] And we raised money for charities in all 92 counties that championed families and kids.
So for me, I finally figured out a way to take this suggestion from my friend and turn it into a way that now I could say to all of these groups that were reaching out to me, I could just say, go ahead and apply for a grant because we're giving out grants for anything that actually benefits the family. For me, I wanted to just kind of figure out, how can I take this moment and make the most of it?
We did the same thing in the office of the second lady. When I became second lady, Barbara Bush sent me a note and she said, "Karen, congratulations on being second lady. When I was second lady, I woke up every morning trying to do something good for someone, and the press never paid any attention to me." [00:34:50] But when George became the nominee for president, my tongue started getting me into trouble. And it's gotten me into trouble ever since.
And I realized, you know, the office of the second lady, we really didn't get much attention for some of the things that we were doing but it didn't really stop me or my small staff from really making a difference. We championed art therapy, especially for our veterans and we worked with lifting up our military spouses.
You know, I like to say they're the home front heroes and they need a lot of support. They really kind of keep the home going while their service member is deployed and they have to move every two or three years.
Then we also champion just beekeeping actually. When I was first lady of Indiana, I heard about another first lady who started a beehive and how she used that with their constituents in their state. And I thought, "What a great idea." I mean, we hear all the time that our bees are struggling. The governor's residence was on six acres and so I started a beehive there. [00:36:10]
Then when I became second lady, I started a beehive at the vice president's residence. Then every time we took a trip or traveled with Mike anywhere in the world or the United States, my staff and I would just tag on a little visit to visit the beekeepers in that particular community.
Actually, one of the things that we did, we tried to do several different events kind of centered around the bees. We would have kids come to the vice president's residence and teach them about the bees and teach them about ways that all of us can support bees.
For example, one of the things we had the kids do was we said, If you just live in an apartment, you can go out on your balcony and you can put a little bowl with rocks in it and fill it with water. And then the bees can kind of stand on those rocks and they can get a drink. [00:37:12] Or if you plant a pollinator garden.
So these are a lot of different things that we did to kind of educate people about ways they can help bees in their community. We learned so much about the bees, so much so that in the book, When It's Your Turn to Serve, I actually start every chapter with a little fun bee fact, because I learned that if God can give this little honeybee everything that it needs, surely he can give me what I need when He calls me to service.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any other favorite facts about bees or even deeper life lessons that you've learned from bees?
Karen Pence: Well, I think, one of the fun things for me was when I was writing the book and I wrote it with my daughter Charlotte. She's a published author and we've done some other projects before. So I said to her, "I have this idea that I'd like to start each chapter with a bee fact." It really was so much fun for us. [00:38:24]
For example, there's one chapter where I talk about how all of our kids got married between the election 2016 and the election 2020. I mean, all three of our kids got married in that time period. And two of them actually had two weddings because our son is in the military. So they had a small wedding and then their big wedding later.
And then Audrey was a COVID bride. So she ended up having a small wedding and then her larger wedding later after COVID. So I thought, you know, it'd be fun for that chapter, let's talk about the fact that when a hive gets too big, the bees will swarm. So some of the bees will actually leave the hive.
So I just tried to find a bee fact that kind of went with whatever I was talking about in that particular chapter. The Secret Service chapter, the bee fact is about the guard bees, you know, just little things like that. [00:39:25] But it really was interesting everywhere I went to hear some fascinating thing about the bees.
I remember I was in Montana and a beekeeper said to me, "Well, you can see the ones coming back to the hive they're the ones who are flying lower to the ground." And I said, "How can you possibly know which bees are leaving the hive and which ones are coming back? How can you possibly know that?"
And he said, "Oh, it's very easy." He said, "The ones who are coming back to the hive, their little pollen sacks on their legs are full of pollen. And they're flying lower to the ground because they have that weight of the pollen in their little pollen sacks." And when I looked closer, I could see these little yellow spots on the bees that were lower to the ground. And they were the ones that were returning to the hive.
But the book is just full of fun little facts about the bees and how they communicate and how they build the honeycomb. [00:40:30] Every single bee makes the honeycomb the same way. And it's on a slight slant so that the larvae, if the larvae are in the comb or if honey is in there, so that it doesn't fall out.
It's just fascinating to me that God would take each bee and impart that wisdom into them. And each one has that DNA in them. So I learned a lot about myself and about God just by learning little facts about the bees.
Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content.
And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out. [00:41:31]
Well, you've also incorporated art in some thoughtful ways, almost as Ebeneezers in your life. And even the inside of your book includes your beautiful watercolor. But will you just share a few ways that art has captured meaningful moments in your life?
Karen Pence: Well, I realized when I started looking back over all my watercolors over the years that they kind of coordinated with different chapters of the book. Years before Mike was governor, I had actually done a watercolor of the governor's residence for a fundraiser that they did there. I had done a watercolor of the vice president's residence. I had done a watercolor... Like one of the things I talk about is when I had the privilege of leading two different delegations to the Special Olympics World Games. I share the watercolor that I painted to give a print to each one of the participants, each one of the athletes. [00:42:36]
And so I started realizing almost every chapter has a watercolor that kind of goes with it. What we ended up doing was the middle section of the book is actually full of different watercolors that I've done. I did a whole set of hummingbirds because that was my code name that the Secret Service gave me. So just little things I realized. So we can kind of put the watercolors in here, you know, instead of actual photographs.
But over the years, when I first started learning about art therapy, I was fascinated, Laura, that I was visiting a children's hospital in Washington and these kids were asking when do I get to come back to the hospital? Because they had worked with an art therapist and they had art projects that were not completed.
I started learning about the profession of art therapy. And while I have a master's degree in art education, I am not an art therapist. [00:43:39] I was fascinated by these art therapists who are master's and doctorate-level trained therapists who use art in their therapy sessions. In fact, still today, just last week, I'm involved again now that we're back in Indiana with the art therapists at Riley Hospital for Children in Indiana.
And I started realizing that art therapy is used as well for our veterans or anyone who struggles with post-traumatic stress disorder. Anyone who's gone through any type of stress and learning how the side of the brain that is affected by trauma is the verbal side. A lot of times our vets come back and they can't talk about what happened to them and they can't seem to share. And they're struggling with anger or fear or relationships. The art therapists are able to use art to help them get some of those feelings out so that then they can start to express themselves and heal. [00:44:50] And I started hearing about some of these success stories.
One that I talk about in the book is a Marine named Chris Stowe. He had tried everything and was just really, really struggling. He was having marriage difficulties and all kinds of issues. What the art therapist was able to do was to find something that Chris could do that would help him get to the root issue of what he actually needed to deal with.
It was actually glassblowing. Chris discovered that the furnace of the fire and the glassblowing and the molten glass was something that really, really helped him. Now he actually has a glassblowing studio that other vets come to and work.
I mean, the book is full of these stories of all these different amazing stories. And I just was fascinated with this. I knew that if I, as someone with a master's degree in art education, didn't know about art therapy, there probably were a lot of people out there who didn't know about art therapy. [00:46:05]
So I tell the story in the book about how my staff and I started at the very beginning and became educated about how art therapy started, where it started, some of the success stories. And then we visited art therapists literally all over the world.
There's some fabulous stories in there about ways that we were able to help even get an art therapy program started in Japan. It was a wonderful experience, I think, for me and for my entire staff.
We tell another story. This is one your listeners might relate to.
We had... it's a program called Combat Paper. And what happens is when a military member gets out of the military, it's very difficult because this has been their identity for, what, 12, 15, 20, 30 years. And they have worn their uniform almost every single day of that service. [00:47:05] Tell the story of how Combat Paper started in California and the service member will take their uniform and they will cut it into little tiny pieces.
They put those pieces into a pulp machine, which kind of grinds them up like a blender. And then they roll that pulp out into a piece of paper, a very thick piece of paper, and they let it dry. And then on that paper, they put some kind of new image, whether they use a stencil that's provided or a drawing of their own or painting or words. But they take that old identity and they change it into something new.
This is just one example of all the amazing things that our art therapists do every single day with our vets and people with cancer, children in hospitals, people who have gone through some kind of stress in their life. [00:48:06] The stories in the book are just fascinating to see how art can be used.
Laura Dugger: I appreciated your stories so much. Even thinking within your marriage, there are two stories that come into mind. One, that your husband used to draw cartoons, I believe, for the newspaper when he was in law school. Is that right?
Karen Pence: Yeah, it was just a little local law school paper.
Laura Dugger: I just loved that you had the idea to go back and publish all of his cartoons and bind them together to gift to him. Also, when you'd captured a picture of the two red-tailed hawks on the ledge of part of the White House and you had that framed, it was just so inspiring and a great reminder to incorporate and preserve art in our own lives to capture and remember some specific ways that God is moving. [00:49:08]
Karen Pence: Very true. Very true.
Laura Dugger: Well, is there any other scripture that God has used to personally encourage you that you would like to pass along as encouragement to each of us?
Karen Pence: One of the things I wanted to do in the book was weave scriptures throughout. Because, you know, one thing Mike and I do is every morning we read the Bible together and we just get out our reading through the Bible in a year. It's just a great way for us to see how scripture comes alive in both of our lives every single morning.
Even though we read through the Bible many times, every single time we read a scripture, it has something new for us. There have been scriptures that I shared in the book that I've clung to. You know, I mentioned that we moved 18 times and that could be... I mean, I tell some of the stories in the book that just, I mean, you would not believe the circumstances where we had to move and move suddenly. [00:50:09]
One of the verses is in Deuteronomy and it says that God will go before us and search out places for us to camp. And I have clung to that verse so many times. When I have friends move or when I have my kids looking for a place to move, you know, I say, "Let's just start praying this verse, and let's claim this verse that God will go before you and search out places for you to camp."
Then there's another verse later where God settled Israelites in their homes and He gives us that grace. So that's a verse that we've clung to a lot.
I know another one that, you know, is kind of our family verse is Jeremiah 29:11. "For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." It's something to remember. [00:51:08] I look back over my life and some of the stories we've shared today, some of the difficulties and the struggles, and knowing that God really did have my best in mind the whole time. He really does want the best for us.
So Jeremiah 29, 11 is one that over the years we've just… we've clung to it. It hangs over our mantle. I gave it to Mike, a big framed version of it when we first moved to Washington in 2000. And now it hangs in every house we've moved to since then. It's hung over the mantle and it does even to this day.
Laura Dugger: Well, Mrs. Pence, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your book. If anybody else wants to pick up their own copy or if we just desire to continue learning from you elsewhere after this chat, where would you direct us to go?
Karen Pence: Probably the easiest way to get the book is on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. [00:52:11] It's an easy way. But also in the audio version where I read the book from cover to cover. I also have a Twitter handle @KarenPence on Instagram. I don't post as much these days as I did when I was in office. But I do things on there from time to time.
One of the things I'm doing now is I just did a book signing with the congressional spouses. I knew that they would relate to this book a lot. I do presentations for pastors’ wives. I'm getting ready next month to speak to the Republican Governors Association to the spouses there. So I do like to get out and talk about the book, especially with the church group.
So you might see something your listeners might see that I'm going to be maybe in their area doing a presentation. But the best way to get the book is probably just on Amazon or Barnes & Noble. [00:53:10]
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will provide a link in the show notes for today's episode. You may already be aware that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Mrs. Pence, what is your savvy sauce?
Karen Pence: Honestly, I would say, Laura, that my savvy sauce is just to relax and take a breath. Trust God. He really does have your best in mind with all the things that we go through in life.
So my savvy sauce would just be to trust Him. He has a calling for your life and He has plans for you. He's given each one of you your own special, unique gifts, your own passions, your own abilities and opportunities. So don't be afraid to step out and trust Him.
That's what I've found over the years, that if I just open up my hands and let go and let God, she has a very fulfilled life, and He's given me. And He will do the same for you when it's your turn to serve. [00:54:31]
Laura Dugger: That's so good. You're bringing us back to the beginning of Jonah 2:8. "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs." I love this conversation, how I got to learn about the ways that God has blessed you with grace upon grace.
Mrs. Pence, your service to our country and your words penned on these pages have impacted people you may never get the chance to meet. But I want to say thank you on behalf of all of us listening. Thank you for inspiring us to seek God first and thank you for sharing your journey of Him extending that grace upon grace in your life. Thank you so much for being my guest.
Karen Pence: Thank you, Laura. It's been a privilege.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. [00:55:39]
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:44]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:50] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jan 29, 2024
Monday Jan 29, 2024
Disclaimer: This podcast episode includes adult themes that are not intended for young ears.
222. Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black
James 5:16 (AMP) "Therefore, confess your sins to one another [your false steps, your offenses], and pray for one another, that you may be healed and restored. The heartfelt and persistent prayer of a righteous man (believer) can accomplish much [when put into action and made effective by God—it is dynamic and can have tremendous power]."
**Transcription Below**
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
Are there any common denominators present in these men and women who struggle with pornography addiction?
-
Satan can make people feel like this stronghold will last forever, but what hope can you share with someone engaged in this battle right now?
-
What would be helpful for the church to understand, speak about, and offer as resources for healing and recovery?
Sam Black is a renowned author and expert in the field of pornography recovery. As the Director of Recovery Education at Covenant Eyes, he brings a wealth of experience to his work, having joined the organization in 2007 after a distinguished 18-year career as an award-winning journalist. Sam is the author of two groundbreaking books: "The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong About Pornography and How to Fix It" and "The Porn Circuit: Understand Your Brain and Break Porn Habits." He has also edited 16 other books on the impact of pornography and regularly speaks at parenting, leadership and men's events across the country. Sam's deep knowledge and compassionate approach have helped countless individuals and families find healing and hope.
The Victory App (Through Covenant Eyes)
Sam's Email Address: sam.black@covenanteyes.com
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
91 Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Do you love to travel? If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, Dream Seller Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamSellerTravel.com.
Sam Black is my guest today. He is Director of Recovery Education at Covenant Eyes, and he's also the author of The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong about Pornography and How to Fix It, which is truly such an amazing book that I want to encourage everyone to add it to their list to read.
In our conversation today, we're going to cover many topics, including the common denominators present with people who struggle with pornography, practical ways to protect our children against the onslaught of pornography and its harmful effects, and hopeful ways people struggling with this issue can be victorious over this stronghold and live in freedom with Christ. [00:01:38] This is a beneficial conversation for every parent, spouse, and church leader. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sam.
Sam Black: Laura, thank you so much for having me. We're going to have a great conversation.
Laura Dugger: Well, first off, I would love for you just to share your personal journey that led you to this work that you're doing today.
Sam Black: Oh man, that's a long story. But maybe the short part of this is over the past 16 years I've served at an organization called Covenant Eyes. Covenant Eyes creates, of course, software, accountability software, that helps people be more open about how they're using their devices. But also we provide a lot of education.
Over those years, I've heard so many people talk about a journey toward real and lasting freedom, but so often they said, "My church didn't help me very much." And I knew that that wasn't the right answer. [00:02:37] So I wrote The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong about Pornography and How to Fix It, so that we can equip churches with a better understanding of why people get stuck, why they often stay stuck without help, and how we can provide real and lasting freedom, but also healing for marriages and relationships.
So I traveled to churches across the United States that were doing this work well, interviewed more than 70 pastors and ministry leaders to help them press into this issue rather than finding it too taboo. And so we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We can look at churches who are doing this work well and learn from what they're doing and we can become a healing church.
Laura Dugger: I really can't sing your praises enough for this resource. It's not an easy read because it's a difficult topic and yet it is so important. And it left me wanting to share this with the elders at our church and to hopefully become one of those healing churches. [00:03:42]
But I love your stance, Sam, because you're not saying this in any condescending tone. You are very candid about your personal struggle with pornography in the past.
Sam Black: Well, I have found that my story is not unique. It's a common story. There's three components to how people get stuck with pornography. It is the early exposure to pornography, one. Number two, it's the ongoing use and repetition, especially in adolescence. And number three, some trauma or drama that's often happened early in life, but can happen elsewhere as well.
I was 10 years old when I first saw pornography. I remember coming out of my home in Florida and my brother and his friend were leaning up against their car looking at a magazine sideways. That didn't make any sense to me. How can you read sideways? And I asked what they were looking at and they turned it around. Even though I grew up in a Christian home, I was naturally curious and took a step forward. I didn't turn away. [00:04:44]
Now, I also had a friend and his dad had pornography that was just falling out of his closet. There were stacks of it. If you can imagine this normal closet with a shelf at the top and stacks of pornography that were leaning over and falling and there's a pile of it on the floor. It sort of looked like a waterfall. And I could take anything I wanted and I did.
But the third part of this component for me was even though I grew up in a Christian home, my father was a hypocritically violent person. He would rage a lot. I didn't realize it at the time that though pornography might have been provoking curiosity and interest, though it may have felt good, I had flipped it to escapism where I felt fear and frustration, and anger. I could run to pornography and then those triggers that would have me going to pornography would expand to things like boredom or frustration. [00:05:44] Or maybe I got bullied at school. Maybe I don't feel good about myself. Whatever those things were, I could run to pornography as a salve to anesthetize my emotions and to regulate my moods.
Laura Dugger: And I'm wondering how many people are connecting with various parts of your story right now. Let's even just go one step further. Let's lay the groundwork for this conversation. Can you define sexual addiction?
Sam Black: Well, let's look at something very simple. Regardless of where we can be addicted to substances or behaviors, things that have become repetitively and they're impacting us. And even when we say, no, I don't want to go there, I find myself doing it, even though I've said, "I'm tired of this. I don't want this in my life anymore. I'm over this. I promised myself, I promised God, I promised others I'm never going back."
And despite maybe some consequences or other things that are going on in my life, I continue to go back. That's, I think, a good layperson's description of pornography. [00:06:51] Despite your best decision-making, you can't seem to overcome what is so impactful for you.
Laura Dugger: And yet, even in your book, you talk about the hope that we'll continue to unpack. But I kind of want to circle back to what you were first connecting with your story, those three components. Because it relates to something that you write near the beginning on page six, where you say about two-thirds of Christian men and one-third of Christian women say they have an ongoing struggle as porn.
Sam Black: When you look at that a little deeper, when you break those numbers down a little bit further, 37% of men 18 to 30 say they're watching pornography daily. 36% of men of all ages, regardless of age, 36% say they're watching multiple times a week. And about 14% of women. [00:07:50]
You say, hey, what's some descriptor of addictive behavior? That's where I'm really focusing, that 37% and 36% and 14%. Those numbers are saying for many of those people, they're like, "I have promised myself, I've promised God, I promised others I'll never go back, and yet I still keep coming back."
You know that we talked about that early exposure and ongoing repetition. Well, I told you a complete story about the first time that I saw pornography. Remember coming out of my Florida home, etc. And because the way our neurology, way our brains are built, way God designed them, they recognize emotional on shocking and impactful experiences. And that's why whenever I talk to adults who saw pornography first as a child, almost all of them can tell me a complete story because it's so impactful on that young brain. [00:08:50]
Laura Dugger: And even that you say compulsive porn users were typically exposed early. That was a theme throughout your book. And I think that helps to usher in a little bit of compassion for an adult who is struggling with this. Typically, this isn't something that they sought out and we're pursuing. This was something that started early in childhood. Is that right?
Sam Black: That's right. Today, especially. Let's revisit this again about that early exposure. So dopamine kicks off. Dopamine loves novelty, something that's never seen before. In God's design, dopamine, when sexual cues are picked up, even though a child doesn't understand "what am I feeling", they often see pornography even before they understand the basics of sex. But nonetheless, they feel the sensations in their body that they don't really understand. And it can focus their attention to the point of tunnel vision.
Now, in God's design, that's beautiful. Sexual cues are picked up with your spouse and you're focused on your spouse, the rest of the world disappears. [00:09:53] God's design. Beautiful.
Pornography is not sex. It's a hijacking of what God created. And so when that child sees that, often today, it's very shocking, demeaning, violent, often video, etc. So that experience can be even more shocking and even more impactful on that young brain today.
Now, what plays with this memory as well is norepinephrine that's associated with fight or flight. So as a child is being shocked by what they're seeing as well, it's even further burning that memory into their brain. So then the ongoing repetition, the youth through adolescence, we actually build neural pathways in our brains. When we do activities over and over, it actually creates neural pathways in our brain that either seek out rewarding experiences or you may have tried to do something for the first time and it was hard. But you did it a few times and your brain learned how to do that. Right? It created a neural pathway to make that easier to do. [00:10:58]
Well, when things like pornography are producing dopamine and giving you a spritz of something that feels good, well, that even creates that neural pathway even more. And so people get stuck in what I call the porn rut. They become very sensitive to pornography. Doesn't take much to turn them on. In other words, they become desensitized to pornography, being that after they've seen it a few times, the brain says, "Hey, I've seen this before and I'm not going to give you as much dopamine for this image that you've repeatedly seen."
And so people find themselves going to chase the original high. They need a bigger dose. They need something more, more often or more violent, more demeaning or any number of things. So that desensitization. It's often said that pornography will take you places you never thought you'd go, do things you never thought you'd do, hurt people you never thought you'd hurt, pay a price you never thought you'd pay. That's where desensitization leads us. [00:12:00]
The final part of that is compulsiveness. That prefrontal cortex of the brain, which, by the way, doesn't fully develop until the late 20s. That's why we pay so much for our kids' car insurance. It is very hard for a young person to be making... their feeling brain, their excitement brain is very well developed. That's why kids can be very emotional.
But their prefrontal cortex, the decision-making, the executive functioning part of the brain isn't yet fully developed. So trying to just think that, without training, our kids will just simply look away, we're setting them up for failure in that way. So we need to help equip our kids.
Let me go back to that point. I'm sorry. That compulsiveness that we talked about, that prefrontal cortex of the brain is very weak. And it's decision-making when it comes to pornography. Maybe you do a great job of making other decisions. [00:13:00] But when sexual cues are picked up or pornography cues are picked up, you'd be very sensitive to it, you'd become desensitized to what you're seeing. And the compulsiveness to go after it is seemingly overwhelming for the individual.
Laura Dugger: Even as a parent, this is so sobering to hear the power of the brain that seems to be against us and then clearly our enemy, the devil, who wants to pounce on this and make it difficult. So I am going to insert just a little bit of good news that you write about on page 43. Again, I'm going to quote you where you write, "Being exposed to porn as a child doesn't produce porn addicts. This is most true of kids and families that communicate well and bond well. Parents also can train their kids to be resilient to porn."
Sam Black: That's right. That is the good news. [00:14:00] When we are equipping our kids, we can help make them more resilient to this. They know what's coming after them. And so when they see it, they go, "Oh, I know what that is. That's not for me. I'm going to turn, run and tell." We can really teach and equip our kids to do that.
I talk about that in the book, about how parents are doing that well, how churches are also equipping their parents because right where we are not instructing our parents, they don't really know what to do. So this is a great opportunity for the church, again, to step in and help protect the next generation.
You may have heard of the parable about a person is walking by the river and they see someone drowning and they reach out and they pull that person to shore. And then a few minutes later, they find somebody else struggling in the water and so they pull them out to safety.
And after a while, they figure out, you know, it's not enough just to build a hospital here where these people were dragging them out of the river. We need to go upstream and see who's pushing them in. [00:15:03] What's happening up front that people are falling into the river in the first place?
So we can equip and train our parents so they can equip and train their kids and disciple their kids so they can be resilient again to a culture that is often thrusting pornography at them.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. I even see in conversations with other moms I know with younger children, they worry, is this going to be robbing their innocence if we talk about these things? But my take is that God designed sex. And so it is beautiful and wonderful. It's innocent if it's kept within the boundaries that He made it for. So obviously being age-appropriate. But it seemed like we were in agreement.
In your book, you had another theme of being in conversation with our children. This is actually going to set them up well and protect them more so they're not seeking out this knowledge with Google or friends. [00:16:02]
Sam Black: I think it's worth taking a minute here and hitting the five myths of what parents often think about or five myths parents believe that really keep them from having these conversations. One is my kid is a good kid and they would never be curious about sex and would never look at pornography. They'd never be curious.
But I was curious. Every child is naturally curious about what the opposite sex looks like without clothes. Usually, it's common for children to see other children's bodies. And that's as far as the curiosity goes. We're just seeing other children's bodies. But when children see pornography, they're both seeing adult bodies, often shocking behavior, it's a totally different thing that's so impactful on that young brain.
Number two, if my child saw it, they just look away. We've missed the neurology behind why it can be so impactful on that young brain.
Number three, the measures I have in place are good enough. Typically this means occasionally looking over their shoulder to see what's on their screen. [00:17:04] And this isn't working. Over and over again, I hear parents say, "My kids first saw pornography on my watch, in my kitchen, in my living room, in my car." I remember talking to a mom saying that they were on her way to a state park and she handed over her phone because her son and his cousin wanted to see where they were going and grandma and mom are sitting in the front seat and hey, everybody's together. So no dangers here, right?
They look at the state park in the back seat and then the cousin says, "Hey, I dare you to look up this word." And that was the first time her 8-year-old son saw pornography in the back seat of her car. And I have heard that story repeated many, many times.
Number four, "Boys are the only ones who struggle. We don't have to worry about our girls." What I find is that this is just not true. Of course, I understated that by a bunch.
I remember a 15-year-old girl coming to the Covenant Eyes booth and saying, "Hey, I brought my dad here to sign up for Covenant Eyes because when I was 15, I heard some boys say some words that I didn't understand. [00:18:11] And so I asked my dad for his phone because he didn't allow me to have my own phone. And that's where I first saw pornography. I don't know why I couldn't stop clicking. Then I would intentionally go back to my mom and dad and ask them for their phones over the next two and a half years, intentionally seeking out pornography. Smart enough to hide what I was doing. Only by accident did my parents find out what was going on."
Number five, "If I talk to my child about pornography, they will become curious and search for it." What we find is if we do some good training with some good resources that are available, we can make our children more resilient.
Every professional in the sphere says the same thing. We can equip our kids with valuable information that helps them become more resilient versus leaving them on their own to make their own choices about this. They're just unequipped. [00:19:15]
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful, Sam. What I love about this conversation, I can see us just vacillating back and forth between the adult who's entrapped in this. And as parents, as we're learning more that this is so prevalent to begin in childhood, I think it's equipping us to know how to protect them.
A few more pieces that are likely to be present for when adults are going to struggle with this. So as children, you talk about if they are repeatedly and compulsively acting out on this behavior, using porn to medicate negative feelings, or if trauma and sexual abuse is involved. So can you share a little bit more about those as well?
Sam Black: Yeah. As adults, if we take a minute and look back, there's this thing called the addiction cycle. Our wounds in life have created a negative belief system. [00:20:14] Now, this negative belief system is often covered over with our careers and our hobbies and our sports and activities. But when we're alone, when we have self-doubt, when we have anger, we have equipped and trained our brains, our mind, body, and spirit that says, "Hey, I need relief. I need to escape this feeling.
So when negative emotions are picked up, we call that a trigger or what have you. I break triggers down into three areas. What I call See, S-E-E, See triggers, social, emotional, and environmental.
So a social trigger might be how you have engaged with others in any number of ways that maybe it's triggering as you're interacting with someone or maybe they are actually doing things that are inappropriate that could be triggering for you.
Environmental and emotional triggers. [00:21:16] I think we understand what those are as well. And those triggers say, hey, I need to either escape or I feel like I need relief from this and begins a preoccupation with fantasy, which often then leads to a ritual where you're seeking out pornography.
Once you act out with pornography, then there's this feeling of despair and toxic shame. And this shame says, "I promised myself, I promised God, I promised others I wouldn't go back down this path, and here I am again." And this shame is self-defeating. It's what I call self-hatred at my expense. A shame, self-hatred at my expense.
And that shame says, "I can never get this right. God's ideals for sex and my purity are unattainable. And it reinforces a negative belief system that says, see, I'm never going to get this right. My worth is not quite... I'm not quite up to par." [00:22:18]
And so after we wallow in that shame for a little while, we'll get back on track. It's like flipping a coin between perfectionism and shame. On one side, I'm always trying harder, working more, reading my scripture more, the Bible more, praying more, serving my family or my church more. That perfectionism can only last for so long and then that coin flips to shame and that wallowing in self-doubt, etc.
So we need to get out of the cycle. And we do that by having a safe place with a safe process. We need safety with one another. James 5:16 says, "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed." That's a formula, right?
I don't mean to overemphasize formula part, but the confession is my part. My brothers in Christ who listen to me are hearing not only my confession of what I did, but they're asking me good questions. [00:23:24] They're asking me, "Well, what happened beforehand? And how did that make you feel? What were you thinking? What were you doing? What were you thinking of doing?
And then God allows that relationship and His grace and His Holy Spirit to come and do some mending on the deeper factors, the roots that lead me back to pornography.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe? If so, you need to call Dream Seller Travel.
Dream Seller Travel is located in central Illinois, but works with clients all across the USA. Whether you're wanting to plan a large family get-together someplace tropical, or take a cruise with your family, or maybe you want to explore the history and culture of a European town, regardless of the trip, Dream Seller Travel is there to assist you with your planning needs. [00:24:25]
From the customized trip design and the ideas through the small details and the preparations before the trip, and even while traveling, Dream Seller Travel is there with you every step along the way, making it seamless and stress-free. Dream Seller Travel can work with your travel plans as you have laid them out, or they will customize a trip for your request. In most cases, there's absolutely no service fee for this work.
Instead of booking online and being the one to deal with your airline schedule changes, or the sudden change in country entry requirements, or the hotel that looks beautiful but is really under construction, call a professional. Let them deal with the problems that arise while traveling so you can just enjoy the trip.
Dream Seller Travel has been planning dream trips since 2005 to amazing destinations such as Alaska, Italy, Hawaii, Canada, the Caribbean, United Kingdom, Germany, Switzerland, France, South Africa, Iceland, and more. [00:25:29] Where do you dream of going?
You can reach out to the Dream Seller Travel at (3099 696-5890 or check them out online at DreamSellerTravel.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: To give us a more compassionate stance towards someone struggling with pornography, while also being careful not to excuse it, will you elaborate on ways intimacy deficiency or lack of secure attachment is at play?
Sam Black: You know, there are many wounds. We often think of maybe the physical or emotional abuse, which is very impactful. Very impactful. Sexual abuse, definitely very impactful for people who are struggling.
But sometimes we have been wounded in ways... There's what we call wax and lax. The wax are things that have been done to us, and the lax are things that we should have received but didn't.[00:26:35]
Parental absence. You know, there's examples of children who've lost a parent. Maybe they've left. Maybe they died. Sometimes the impact of divorce can be very overwhelming, a disconnection. Maybe the child is blaming themselves for their parents being apart. But often divorce comes with wounding regardless.
You know, we live in a culture where often both parents have to work. And sometimes our value in life has often been arranged around how successful we are in our careers. Sometimes our kids have paid a price, or maybe you as a child have paid a price for that.
So these wounds are often not major trauma, but they're like the death of a thousand cuts. Little by little, this has impacted how you feel and think about yourself. [00:27:35]
Another very unexpected wound that is very impactful for people, especially who struggle with pornography. In fact, 77% of men who struggle with pornography, see they came from homes with rigid rules. Now, there's nothing wrong with saying, "These are the movies we watch. This is the music we listen to. These are the guardrails we're putting up in our life." That's good.
But when we live in homes with rigid rules where it's simply lines in the sand that we don't cross, and crossing them is simply met with shame, maybe anger, maybe even violence, then those rigid environments have big impact on those kids.
And so maybe they're looking for the loopholes to get through, but they know they can't talk with mom and dad about things that they might be struggling with, because that would just be met with more shame. So we need to be disciple-makers. [00:28:37] Discipline is about discipleship, about loving teaching, rather than simply lines in the sand that are met with very stringent backing.
Maybe you've experienced that, and you're listening and you're going, Man, I never realized that these are some of the things that I've experienced. Maybe there needs to be a little empathy for yourself to understand, okay, these are some ways I am struggling, and these are why I'm struggling.
But the good news is you don't have to stay there. You can learn to live in freedom.
Laura Dugger: Will you give us a taste of what that freedom can look like, and even personal stories where you've heard of breakthroughs for people who think they'll be trapped in this forever?
Sam Black: I often get this question from men and women who says, "Well, since I've developed this compulsive behavior or addiction to pornography, am I always going to be stuck?" [00:29:40] And the answer is no. You can live in freedom. You don't have to continue to have this ongoing fight. You can really grow. But it comes from community.
Now, we talked about before, James 5:16. But if we look at Galatians 6, about gently correcting, that we need the body of Christ. When we have a safe place, it's okay to come just as you are.
So often in the church today, we have this spectrum of safety. And on one side of the spectrum is it's okay to come just as you are. Everybody's got problems. Everybody's got faults. But you don't really have to deal with them because, you know, hey, you know, everybody's just got issues. You're never really called to change.
On the other side of the spectrum is it's not okay, especially for Christians to have any struggles in their life, especially a stronghold in their life, especially if they grew up in church. And it's not safe to come to talk about how you're struggling. [00:30:43] Because if you're struggling in that way, maybe you just don't belong with us. Maybe it's met with shame and… etc.
What we need to be as a church is that center place where it's okay to come as you are. But we love you too much, even as a fellow Christian, that you're struggling. But we love you too much to let you have to walk that journey by yourself. We're going to walk alongside you.
So a safe place and a safe process helps the individual to learn to understand how they're feeling. They become more aware, self-aware of all their emotions and their anger and how they react to it and all these other different aspects of their life.
And when they go through a healing process, that process is not just simply, hey, how are you doing today? No, there's some guidelines. There's some ways to things you need to work on. And so it's a more formal process. [00:31:44]
Then there's lots of resources like this. Let me give you a free one. It's called the Victory App by Covenant Eyes. There's more than almost 30 courses in there that walk you through: How did I get here? Why do I seem to stay stuck? How can I live in real freedom? Now you're beginning to understand how did I get here? And you're walking with someone else and doing that so that rather than leaning on your own willpower, you are growing in understanding, you're forming new habits, you are leaning on Christ. And you're doing that with a brother or sister in Christ.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much. I'm going to focus in on the word "process". It makes me think of progressive sanctification. There's such an art to this process because if you're trying to create safety in the church, if someone comes and confesses to you, "I wish I didn't struggle with this," and they share, I don't think it's most helpful to begin with, "Yes, this is a sin. [00:32:50] This is why you're wrong." And some condemnation where that is true, this is a sin, this is wrong. But what's your take on that with the process of starting there? Because to me, it seems like it shuts down vulnerability.
Sam Black: Right. We need that safety that sometimes we just need to get things out. We don't need that ally or friend or a group to give us all the answers or tell us what we're doing wrong. I do talk about in the book how the purity sermon isn't very effective for people who are struggling deeply with this because they already know they need to be pure. They wish they knew how. They really want to escape this.
And so a structured recovery process really allows someone to be discipled well. It's an opportunity for deep discipleship. I had to recognize that I built my own cage. Brick by brick and bar by bar. And I locked the door and threw away the key. And by the way, nobody keeps the key. [00:33:58]
So I needed others to come into my life and help me unlock the door and show me to walk me out because left to my own willpower, left my own patterns of behavior. I want to go back to what was familiar. If I felt fear or anger, frustration, sadness, whatever, then I want to anesthetize those emotions, regulate that mood in the way that I've learned to do so well over so many years.
But when I got in a safe group, now I could understand. I can actually stop and think about: how am I feeling? What's going on? What's leading to that emotion? How can I sit with that emotion? All those kinds of things.
I know that sounds so simple, but it's very hard for most adults to do. We use a lot of things, just food and shopping and alcohol or drugs or pornography or other things. These are simply means to help cope with something in our lives that feels very uncomfortable. [00:35:03]
How can we begin learning to sit with those emotions? How do we recognize our triggers when they come? I tell a story about my own life. This will sound sad for many of your listeners. And listen, I can tell the story because I've processed it with others and I get to come out on either side more whole. But I think it provides a good example of how the process with fellow believers can renew the mind, body, and spirit.
All right. When I was 12 years old, I was helping my dad in our shed and there was a rope that was coiled up or a mess, I should say, on the shed floor. And this rope beforehand had been the back of our pickup in Florida and had been rained on and sunshined on. In Florida, it rains and rains every day at about five o'clock and then the sun comes back out. So this rope had been baked into a mess.
My dad said, "Hey, I want you to pick up that rope and to coil it." And so I put it in one hand and began wrapping it around my elbow, hand to elbow, hand to elbow. And he goes, "No, no, no, I don't want you to do it that way. I want you to do it hand over hand." I said, "Okay." [00:36:15] I've never done that before. And when I would try to do it hand over hand, this messy rope would twist or turn. And so it wouldn't be the perfect loop.
So when it would twist or turn, my dad would hit me in the head or the back or the face and he would tell me I was stupid and I couldn't get anything right and I was dummy. I would panic and then go back to coiling that rope over my elbow and hand and hit some more.
So when I became a teenager and an adult, whenever I picked up a rope or extension cord or whatever else to coil it, I would go back to that 12-year-old boy. Now, I didn't recognize it at the time that I would likely look at pornography that day to anesthetize those emotions, to escape from those feelings, because I wouldn't just go back in time and remember that. I literally went back in time and felt like I was there again. [00:37:23]
So how does a safe process and a safe place, safe people help me make different choices? Well, as I began to process that memory with others, I also became equipped to, that whatever I coiled a rope, I could do something different.
And as I was doing it hand over hand, I would say, "How deep the Father's love for us." So I would sing and keep a beat to coiling that rope, I could lean on the Holy Spirit in my life to create renewal. I didn't have to go back in time and relive that emotion. I could recognize that, hey, this was triggering for me, that I am not there anymore, that I did not deserve those wounds, and that my Heavenly Father loves me deeply.
Now I can react totally different. Now I'm empowered by others to end a new mind frame, to react differently. [00:38:28] I can live in the present, not live in the past wounds. I can lean on my Father in Heaven and He is there for me. I can experience His healing in my life.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Sam, and when you share that story, especially when you started singing, tears come to my eyes. You were offering not only a sacrifice of praise, but God didn't create us as a vacuum where this empty space just exists. You are choosing to very practically fill it with our Good Father. I appreciate you sharing that journey to healing.
As we've talked so much about the root of this and where a lot of this comes from, but I'm thinking of the families who are encountering this message, and if they've read your book, they could see this theme that Christian men and women who are compulsively engaging with pornography oftentimes are still in denial that they have an addiction. [00:39:37] So how can someone recognize if this is a problem in their life?
Sam Black: I think one of the first things we need to do is think about what does Jesus say about pornography? Because He's very clear that if you look at another and objectify them, then you are committing adultery. That's very clear in scripture.
First, we need to have Christ's standard in our life. But number two, not to treat His grace so cheaply. That we want to be like Christ, to follow Christ, like Paul says, as I follow Christ, follow me. We have a model to hold up. We have said to ourselves or to a spouse or to others that I don't want to do this anymore or that I promise I won't do this anymore? How has it impacted your relationships? How is it impacting your relationship with your heavenly father? [00:40:40]
There is a number of studies that have been done and all these studies come to the same conclusion that there is a direct correlation between pornography use and increased religious doubts, less time in prayer and scripture, reduced church attendance. In fact, they found the direct correlation between pornography use and whether someone will serve in their church over the next six years. Are all these things impacting you?
And so, if you can't stop viewing pornography for 30 days, then maybe you might say, Wow, I do have some struggle. If it's occupying your thoughts in those 30 days, sometimes people white knuckle it, just try harder for a period of time and they just fight. But they are nonetheless fighting hard to keep this out of their life for just 30 days.
And if that's your struggle, then maybe there's some need to think more deeply about the wounds and the hurts, the impact of having watched pornography through adolescence, etc., maybe being exposed as a child. [00:41:49] So all these things are impacting you, then you might say, hey, I'm really struggling.
I think there's some ways you can begin thinking about this more deeply. Again, I mentioned that free app from Covenant Eyes called the Victory app. You can download it from any of your app stores. The Victory app by Covenant Eyes, again, helps you understand: How did I get here, why do I seem to stay here, and how can I live in freedom?
Laura Dugger: Are there any common warning signs to alert us to our spouse being addicted as well?
Sam Black: I'll talk about this in The Healing Church as well. By the way, you can download the first chapter of The Healing Church at thehealingchurch.com. So often we compartmentalize our lives.
Sometimes it is very difficult if they're working very hard at hiding it. But often if it's been found in the past, things that are appearing on your smart TV, or wait, we didn't think we watched that kind of thing, or that's very sexually edgy, or there's other streaming services that are coming on, or whatever it is. [00:43:04] If you've seen it happen a couple of times already, then likely it's happening more than you think, because people are pretty good at hiding their tracks.
They've become hiders over time, especially for those who are struggling. They've been hiding their pornography use for some time, and if it's coming out, it's probably even more so than you suspect.
Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?
Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.
I think that Satan can make people feel like this is a stronghold that will last forever. [00:44:07] But what practical hope can you share with someone who is engaged in this battle right now?
Sam Black: Paul talks about the renewing of the mind. What modern neurology teaches us is that, indeed, we can be renewed from a neurological level as well. It's called neuroplasticity, and simply means that the brain is more plastic than it is ceramic.
It used to be thought, though, when you got to a certain age, that's just the way you were. You were stuck no matter what happened. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
What neuroplasticity teaches us is that we can exchange behaviors that we don't want for behaviors we do want. We can create new neural pathways that are rewarding, exciting, fun, enjoyable. We don't have to stay stuck in our old patterns.
It's like a path in the woods. When you first went down that path, it became hard. There was lots of grass, trees in the way, shrubbery, and you got cleared that out. [00:45:07] And the more you walked it, the easier it became, the wider the path became.
Well, that is true as well. When you begin ignoring that path, stop going down that path, well, the grass begins to grow over, the shrubbery comes back. And in favor of new neural pathways that lead to healthy and rewarding, exciting behaviors.
As I mentor other men, I often ask them, what are you doing for fun? Often those who are struggling most deeply are often workaholics. They live, sometimes, lives of deprivation. They're not doing your... I don't... that sounds strange, but they work so hard. They do so much. When they want to seek out pornography, they're like, "Well, I've just deprived myself of so much. I deserve this. I need this."
What we need to do is stop living a life of deprivation and one of God's joy. [00:46:10] God designed us for pleasure and enjoyment in our lives. There, we have the feelings of touch and sight and sound.
We have a great eBook at Covenant Eyes called Hobbies and Habits. And the whole idea is that you're exchanging negative behaviors for positive and joyful behaviors that God designed you for in the first place.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I love that you say that God designed you for in the first place, because it makes me think back to a previous episode with Arlene Pellicane. She talks about dopamine, which you've alluded to earlier in this episode, where we can wear out our pleasure center and the brain demands more and more and more dopamine that's not sustainable. And then we crash. And usually, that's one thing that can lead to depression.
But then there's serotonin that is endlessly available and healthy for us. And we can experience some of those same feelings, those pleasures but that comes from getting enough sleep and, I believe, connecting with community and eating nutritious meals. [00:47:18]
Sam Black: Yes. All of those are important in the recovery process, too.
Laura Dugger: Yes. So to lean into God's good design, like you're saying. Sam, what would be helpful for the church to understand and to speak about and to offer as resources for healing and recovery?
Sam Black: For pastors and ministry leaders listening, I just want to encourage you to press into this issue, one, and understand a little more about the issue at hand. That's what I did. That's why I created The Healing Church.
It's a primer to help pastors and ministry leaders better understand how do people get stuck, why they often stay stuck, and how can they live in freedom, and more importantly, how the church can step into that.
What's been so encouraging is—I'm just thinking of the past couple of weeks—pastors have been inviting me to their churches and speaking to their congregations. I just went to a five-campus church in South Carolina, spoke at both morning services. [00:48:23] So that now the pastor is saying, "Hey, we recognize that this is an issue. We're not going to hide from it anymore. And we're willing to press in. We also want to offer you help and support."
What was so interesting that after the end of my first session, they had 146 men and women sign up for their small groups to find real help and support and freedom from this.
When we take away all the taboo and we start leaning in and having good conversations about this issue, because the world certainly isn't scared to talk about it. So we can begin having these conversations in the church and do it well.
I was just at a church in Texas. They did the same thing for their congregation where they said, "Hey, we recognize that pornography is impactful on our families, on our children. We can talk about this in healthy ways that aren't shaming and that are empowering and lead to life change." We're a church that cares about people. We want to see them live a life of restoration and freedom. [00:49:32]
And so that's one of the first things we, you know, sort of things we can do. Probably one of the easiest things that we can do is have a parents' training safety night where we're talking about the impact of pornography on children.
Well, when we understand how our children today are being impacted, well, all those parents and adults, they understand that, Oh, that's exactly how I was impacted. And so it begins taking away some of the fear and shame around the issue. We need to stop living lives of fear and shame because God knows all of our sin already. He is not fearful of our shame. He wants to see us live in His wholeness and freedom.
Laura Dugger: Well, I love how you respond to that, Sam. A few more things that I found throughout your book, just talking about sharing our stories and how powerful that is in church and really getting back to the heart of repentance, which is turning from sin by turning to God. [00:50:34] So you give us a lot of hope and a lot of practicality.
But will you also just share the vision you have for redeemed healers and for the church if they start stepping into this opportunity to become a healing church?
Sam Black: You know, I told you a little bit earlier about the surveys and studies that were done by both Christian universities and secular universities about how pornography is so impactful on religious doubts and prayer life and volunteerism in the church.
What I discovered as I traveled the country visiting churches that were doing this work well is they were reversing all of that. They had increased church attendance, especially among those who had been struggling, who had been going through a safe process. Those people had stronger faith. They had greater wholeness in their life.
You know, you can stop doing a habit and still be a jerk, right? We don't want that. We want people to live in greater wholeness in their relationships with their spouse, with their kids, with their church, with their community, with one another. [00:51:42] And overwhelmingly, people who had gone through a safe place and a safe process were excited to give back because you give away the freedom you've received.
So pastors on a regular basis at these churches were saying, "Sam, you've got to understand, I don't do more now because we do this work. I do less." Because having discipled people through a difficult and stronghold, they come out on the other side wanting to give that freedom to others. And they're saying, "Pastor, you need to volunteer for that. I can do that. Hey, you will need some help with doing that. I can do that. You need help discipling this person, I can be there for that."
So those pastors were excited about how they had turned people who were in misery into mentors. God can turn all their misery into ministry.
That's what the exciting part about all of this work is, is people become more self-aware, more spiritually aware. [00:52:47] They find healing for their wounds, and then they want to give back. They are dangerous to the status quo. Having had an awakening, they pursue others, and they give away the hope they've received.
Laura Dugger: And that is certainly something you have done. If anyone wants to follow up after this conversation, where would you direct us online to continue learning from you?
Sam Black: You can learn more about The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong about Pornography and How to Fix It at thehealingchurch.com. You can also send me an email directly to me at sam.black@covenanteyes.com. Again, that's sam.black@covenanteyes.com.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Sam, what is your savvy sauce? [00:53:46]
Sam Black: My savvy sauce is not to live alone, but live in community. So often we become isolated in things that we struggle with. We don't want to let anyone else know about.
But I'm making it as part of my living and life to have others in my life, to meet with on a regular basis, to practice some James 5:16, and to grow a little bit in my own awareness and recognizing I'm not perfect. But living with others so that I can be just a little more self-aware and grow a little bit more.
Laura Dugger: Well, Sam, you are such a knowledgeable and gentle mentor. I'm so grateful for your resource and for your time today. You're such a respectable man, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.
Sam Black: Oh, you're so kind. Thank you for having me. What a joy it's been to share this. [00:54:46] I hope all your listeners found it valuable today.
Laura Dugger: I believe they will. Thank you.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:55:51] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:56:51] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:57:56] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Saturday Jan 27, 2024
Saturday Jan 27, 2024
**Transcription Below**
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] Earlier this year, I was spending some of my quiet time with the Lord reflecting on this scripture. "He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes so that it will be even more fruitful." That's found in John 15:2.
These follow-up questions were helpful to process. First, what branch needs to be cut off in my life right now? Second, where do I see fruit? And third, what needs to be pruned?
A few days later, God revealed something that needs to be pruned through the willingness of a friend to speak truth in love.
So here's the backstory. There are a few of us friends who get together monthly for a potluck dinner. And Mark and I look so forward to this time together and it's filled with belly laughs and shared heartaches and lasting conversations. [00:01:01]
We each take turns hosting the group and then we prioritize child care so that it's an evening full of adult conversation. The consistency of meeting regularly has produced much fruit and cherished relationships.
So the weekend that I was processing these questions, a potluck friend brought up the conversation that she believes it's an error to say God cannot be in the presence of sin. We had a really good discussion of where that saying originated and how we all agreed it was inaccurate. Therein lies my big oops.
This is exactly the phrase that I say when I present the gospel message at the end of every Savvy Sauce episode. I realized I was in error in the way that I communicated that message and I am so deeply sorry for my mistake.
One of my initial fears before starting The Savvy Sauce was that I would somehow accidentally teach something or say something in the wrong way that would be misleading or wrong. [00:02:05] And I especially didn't want to mess up on the most important part of each episode, which is when I shared how Jesus is the only one who can save us from our sins.
My fears became my reality. But it's actually not as scary as I thought because of God's mercy and grace, because of His undeserved favor and forgiveness. So I have already apologized to my Father and now I ask your forgiveness as well. I hope you can forgive me.
So you may notice a change in the wording of the gospel message from this point forward. It took me months to re-record this because I didn't want to carelessly correct it without praying through these changes and then also seeking the godly counsel of others.
Now what I would say I believe is that God can be in the presence of sin because Jesus walked among sinners. [00:03:05] He was in relationship with sinners, He dined with them, and He willingly gave His life for them.
Naomi Vacaro said it really well in her Patreon episode where she expressed, "Sin only separates us from God if we let it." She goes on to explain that Jesus rushes to the side of any repentant sinner every time. That has definitely been my experience with Him too.
We wrestled through so many options as a potluck group and with our team, but now we feel at peace with this version we've selected. I hope you get to listen to the updated gospel message next time you tune in to The Savvy Sauce podcast.
I am deeply grateful for this work I get to do and I pray God continues to lead and guide our team as we continue moving forward. So please don't hesitate to reach out if you believe that I've erred in any other area. Love you all. Grateful for you. [00:04:05]
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:05:06] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:06:06]
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.
The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:07:11] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jan 22, 2024
Monday Jan 22, 2024
221. Healthy Attachment in Marriage and Parenting with Jason VanRuler
Jonah 2:8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
Will you teach us Attachment theory?
-
How can each of us work to move more towards secure attachment?
-
How can we best set our children up to be securely attached?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
Jason VanRuler is the author of Get Past Your Past: How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. He began his career in 2011 and has worked with many populations over the years, ranging from persons who are incarcerated to top CEOs, performers and artists, and just about everyone in between. Jason has extensive experience as a clinician, coach, and speaker and operates a multistate private practice. In 2018, Jason joined Bethesda Workshops in Nashville, TN, where he serves as a group leader and facilitator. Jason is known for his ability to relate and connect with his clients and offer hope to those who have felt hopeless. He has an engaged and rapidly growing online audience for his insightful, short videos sharing practical tips for psychological care, self-help, and healthy relationships.
Jason enjoys spending time with his wife and three children playing games and traveling. In his spare time, Jason enjoys cycling, running, music, fly fishing, and all things personal development related.
https://www.instagram.com/jason.vanruler/
https://www.youtube.com/c/Jasonvrcounselor
https://www.tiktok.com/@jason.vanruler
https://www.amazon.com/Get-Past-Your-Facing-Connection/dp/0310367417
Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
97 Guiding Our Children Through Their Emotions with Julie Roth
Patreon 18 Shame's Journey to Freedom with Julie Roth
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
Jason VanRuler is my guest today. He is a therapist, speaker, and author. His book is entitled, Get Past Your Past: How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. Jason's going to go first, and he's going to share his story now, as well as relationship advice and wisdom for parents and married couples.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jason.
Jason VanRuler: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I've been looking forward to this.
Laura Dugger: Same here. Will you begin our time together by telling us about your personal journey, beginning with growing up in a challenging environment, and then how that led you to become a licensed therapist and now author? [00:01:27]
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. Well, I think my story is unique to me, but in some ways, one that is increasingly common, probably shared by a lot. But I grew up in a home that was pretty idyllic. Just all the things were there that you would want to be there as a kid.
Seemingly, it was just going to be the childhood that a kid would dream of. And then at age eight, my parents divorced. It was a very surprising divorce to me. I was eight, so I'm not sure how much clarity I really had about anything anyway.
But they divorced, and I went from having this kind of idyllic childhood to a very volatile, chaotic one. When my parents divorced, what basically happened is it kind of thrust us into this place of struggling with some poverty, moving a lot. We lived in probably 20 houses throughout my childhood since age 8 to age 18. So we moved a ton. There was just a lot of addiction and trauma, abuse.
So it kind of went from having what you might suspect as being a really wonderful childhood to having this significant break and then shifting to something quite the opposite. [00:02:33] For me, obviously, that was really difficult, and I really struggled with that.
I did the thing that people do when they exit a difficult childhood, and they just say, well, I'm never going to do that. Right. That'll never be me. I'm going to live so much differently. And so I kind of declared that from the rooftops as I graduated and I'm going to move out and do all this stuff.
Unfortunately, I just kind of recreated the same system. And I think the reason for that is I didn't know how to do it differently. I knew in my heart that I wanted things to change, but I wasn't sure how. I ended up just replicating the system.
Within a couple of years, I'd gone to college, dropped out of college, was now struggling financially, really, because I was making a lot of poor decisions and drinking and using drugs and just doing all the things that I had said I would never do.
That's when I had the realization that I talk about in the book: Either your life is going to be pretty predictable if you keep doing this or it's going to change. [00:03:35] That kind of led me down the path of improvement in wanting to become a therapist.
But I will tell you, Laura, I always wanted to be a therapist, actually, if you can believe that. It was probably obvious that I was going to be a therapist because at age eight, I was already journaling. So I don't know many 8-year-olds that are journaling. But I actually have the journal at home.
At age eight, I journaled that I wanted to be a therapist. I wanted to write a book. I wanted to kind of do all the things I was doing today. And I think some of that was because I have always dressed like a therapist. So I was wearing my corduroys and my sweater and I was dressed like a 60-year-old man. And I just had decided I'm going to be a therapist.
And so I think I had clarity, but life was complicated. It took me a long time to get to the place I wanted to go because some things got in the way.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is such a helpful recap. Along this journey, when was it that you met and surrendered your life to Jesus? [00:04:37]
Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, you know, really a couple of times. So when my parents were married, I grew up in the church and that was part of my life. Then after they split, that became something that was really hit or miss.
So occasionally we'd go to church and we might go to different churches. So there was not a lot of stability there.
As I made my declaration about being different and changing everything, I really had this kind of fight with God. I had this wrestling match where I just couldn't quite fathom how I could have something so good that could switch to something so bad and God could still have some role in that. So for a long time, I really wrestled with that.
I would say that even though I had been baptized as a child, I was baptized in the Missouri River shortly after I got married. That, for me, is really when I look at my faith expanding and being the kind of faith that I would want as an adult.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. Now as an adult, if you fast forward and catch us up to just a snapshot of today? Can you update us on your family? [00:05:45]
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I met my wife, we got married, and we both had talked about having kids and that was important to us. I talk more about this in the book, but we had a lot of problems having kids. In fact, we're told we couldn't and so had tried to adopt and that didn't work. Eventually, by God's grace, we had kids. We did the thing they said we couldn't do.
So now I've got three kiddos, a son who's 13 and a daughter that's 10, and another son who is 8. And so married now, this year will be 17 years with three kids.
Laura Dugger: I love it. I also just love how God surprised you with leading you into a career where you work so often with married couples. Attachment is a huge piece of any relationship. So will you teach us attachment theory?
Jason VanRuler: Yeah, absolutely. Attachment theory is something that's really helpful for a lot of people because I think what we're looking to try to do is to better understand the patterns and themes in our relationship. [00:06:51] And so attachment theory is a great way to do that.
It is not a new theory. It's something a lot of people are talking about now, but it's actually been around for a long time. And it was really founded by this guy. His name was John Bowlby. Basically what he based attachment theory on is that we have these initial relationships with our parents and our caregivers. And so that relationship that we have really determines the relationship and attachment style that we have going forward.
If you can think about this, when we have a relationship with a parent, we're essentially dependent on them, right? If a parent refuses to care for a baby, they will die, right? They absolutely need that. And so that relationship is critical.
And from that relationship, we learn ways to operate in the world. A lot of that initial relationship will determine our future relationship. So that's what they talked about with attachment theory.
Bowlby did some experiments that were pretty famous, where he would have a child in a room and the mother would be in the room with the child. Then the mother would leave the room and they would look to see what the baby would do. [00:07:59]
If the baby screamed and cried and was just inconsolable and very upset, they would often feel like that was an anxious attachment style. The anxious attachment style is the perception that relationships are insecure, meaning you're always at risk of losing them. And so they are deeply afraid of being abandoned. So that baby would respond as though mom has left and I'm abandoned and now I'm alone. That was one of the styles as they did this research.
Another style was the mother would leave and the baby would just be okay. The baby would actually, when the mom came back, not even try to connect. It just didn't have a great attachment to the mother. Period.
This would be called avoidant or dismissive. This attachment style is essentially someone who does not want to depend on others or to have others depend on them. And they don't seek all that support and approval that an anxiously attached person would seek. [00:09:02]
The third style is disorganized. Some people call this a fearful avoidant too. But this one is mixed results, right? This often comes from having a parent that's inconsistent or at times is hurtful. So it's a person who deeply wants to have connection, but is also deeply afraid of having that connection. At times they might be anxious, at times they might be avoidant, but it's kind of a mixed style.
Then the style that everybody wants, Laura, is secure attachment. That's what we're all really going for, right? Secure attachment was when the child was okay when mom was there and okay when mom wasn't there and could be in relationship when there was an opportunity and not when there wasn't. Basically, it's the ability to regulate ourselves well.
Secure attachment is something that people want because it allows us to have some more objectivity in relationship, probably a healthier perspective about relationships than we do if we have the avoidant or the anxious or the fearful because those other ones are driven by a need that wasn't met. [00:10:06]
Laura Dugger: Okay. That is such a good flyover. Now just a few follow-up questions. As we progress and even get married and have our own families, typically differing attachment styles are attracted to one another. Would you agree with that?
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I mean, I think God's really funny that way. It's sort of this, this idea of we often end up with someone who is either opposite or operates in a place that is kind of challenging for us but is very intriguing initially.
Laura Dugger: Can you give some examples of how that plays out specifically in a married couple?
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I think probably the most talked about pairing of attachment styles would be the anxious and the avoidance. And so what this is, is... sometimes called the pursuer and the distancer.
So the anxiously attached person is always chasing and seeking that connection.[00:11:09] Because they're kind of fundamental question of the anxiously attached is, Am I okay? Are we okay? The question for an avoidance is, are we getting too close? So when they feel like we're getting too close, they put distance.
So what we can end up having is a relationship style where one person is chasing the other for connection and the other is running away from it. That can be really stressful. It can be really challenging because we both need two very different things. Unless we're intentional about trying to meet in the middle, we can unfortunately have a cycle that just repeats itself.
Laura Dugger: Even as you say that, I think of friendships as well. Do you see this attachment style playing out really in all of our relationships as adults?
Jason VanRuler: Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that I think if we understand we can work around, but if we don't, unfortunately, it can kind of run our life. I know, and I've talked about this, I'm anxiously attached. [00:12:11] Prior to doing a lot of personal work, I was just kind of always wondering if I was okay. I might've even said, "Hey Laura, how is this going? Am I doing all right in this interview? Do you think it's fine?"
That just started to come out all over the place. And that's how that works if we don't know or we don't have intention about where we're at. It is something we see in friendships, we see in work relationships. We see it all over the place.
Again, it's just a thing that if we understand, we can begin to work towards secure attachment or having that stability and ability to regulate our emotions and kind of show up knowing we're okay and being comfortable with connection. But that does take some work if we're not coming into our life with secure attachment.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. [00:13:14]
Unlike other parts of the world, where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.
Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year.
And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses.
Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank.
To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. [00:14:27] I hope you check them out today.
Laura Dugger: How can each of us specifically work to move more towards secure attachment?
Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, the easiest way that people would recommend is find someone who has a secure attachment style and just be their best friend or marry them. That's the short answer. Because what research has told us is that we change by being around that secure attachment style.
And you might even notice this. If you're anxiously attached and you have a friend or your partner is securely attached, they will in a lot of ways help you to regulate what you're feeling because they don't experience that same feeling, right? And so they just bring that calming effect.
The other part is just learning about it. There's a great book called Attached and it's by Amir Levine. It talks about ways that we can actually develop a more secure attachment style. So I think either being around securely attached people or learning about the hallmarks of those and trying to change your behavior are both ways we can get there. [00:15:27]
Laura Dugger: Anybody who has a personal relationship with Jesus, obviously he is the most securely attached. And I think there is so much healing there when we are deepening and establishing our relationship with Him, because we can experience that unconditional positive regard and unconditional love.
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I think if you're a faith person like I am, like you are, I think that's our superpower actually is that we have that already. That's just something that is with us today.
Even if we're in a place where we're like, yeah, very anxiously attached, we just know a very easy place to go where we're going to have that connection that we really desire. So, yes, absolutely. That's a great place to start for people is you don't even have to go outside of your home. Just going even to prayer and having that connection or relationship is a great model for the one we're trying to build.
Laura Dugger: There's a sense of urgency that I feel as a parent too, because attachment follows us throughout our lives. [00:16:31] You said it well. On page 85, you wrote, "I have a good friend who says we are all just reacting to or reflecting our childhoods." So, Jason, how can we best set up our children to be securely attached?
Jason VanRuler: That's a great question. I think it's knowing our own attachment and knowing what we bring in to that relationship with our children and being honest about that and working on it as needed. So I think where we get into a lot of trouble is just not having the awareness or insight about who we are and what we bring into that.
Because the truth is none of us are going to be perfect parents. I mean, I would like to, and certainly that would be a goal of mine if it were possible, but it's not. I think how we can best do that for our kids is just to be honest about how it is. Even just kind of saying like, yeah, this is a place I kind of struggle. What book could I read? Who can I talk to? How do I get better at this? [00:17:31]
The other thing that I tell people is if you're coming into this as a parent and you say, you know, "I know I've got some woundedness in my past. I know I've got some struggles. I'm aware of that," and so it's not going to be natural or intuitive for me to know what to do as a parent, get some role models.
I will say my parenting has completely changed the more I've allowed role models to be in my life. And what I mean by that is those are people who I literally go to and say like, "Hey, here's a thing that's going on with my kiddos and this is what I would do. What would you do?" And just learning from people who have a different attachment style, who are more securely attached, who have done it before have that perspective, that is a great teacher for how to do it in your own life.
Laura Dugger: I think it's always helpful to hear practical examples like that. That is something that seems doable. I'm just curious, with this attachment with our children, is that typically more on them or more on us as the parents to whether or not they form a secure attachment? [00:18:35]
Jason VanRuler: That's a great question. What research tells us is it typically lands more on the parents, although we both have a role in that. The way as a parent that we really want to just reinforce that is being that parent that is available, being the parent that is consistent and stable. When we're able to do that, that lends itself to child having secure attachment.
Now, certainly, perception can affect things, but if we are coming in as our stable self and consistent with our kiddos, they are far more likely to have a secure attachment style.
Laura Dugger: Okay. And then also, just thinking of when I was a brand new mom, sometimes I would take that to mean, Okay, I can never leave them if I want them to have a long-term secure attachment. But I don't think that's what you're saying. So will you elaborate more, even on the do's and don'ts that help with secure attachment? [00:19:34]
Jason VanRuler: That is what I mean, Laura. You can never leave no vacations ever. You have to stay put forever. I know we feel that way because it is so important. I think so many of us now, we just want to do it better. And we want it to be healthy and we want to do all the right things. That's great.
Something I say often is the opposite, though, of one extreme is another, right? We don't want to kind of fly from not having inside awareness and just operating out of reaction to then being completely rigid and doing nothing.
So really the thing is, is that, yeah, absolutely you can take vacation. You can do things like that. I think the piece that's actually vital is communication. Are we communicating what is happening to our kids and why? Obviously, that's going to be different, dependent on the age because some things are more age-appropriate than others. But are we really communicating what's happening?
And then when we are present, are we really present? I think sometimes people worry about leaving their kids and saying, "Well, I'm going to be gone from them. How does that impact them?" [00:20:40] But they're not even present when they're with them.
So I think being present when you're with your kids is really, really important. I think if you take vacations and do things like that, it just matters that you communicate what's happening.
Laura Dugger: I feel like that's a message of grace. And we cannot, I know I cannot hear that enough. It makes me reflect back. One of my sweet friends is Julie Roth, and she's actually a counselor as well. She's been on The Savvy Sauce, so I can link some of her previous episodes.
But she also talked about there are times, like you're saying, if we are communicating with our children, but if we take breaks or we go on date night or we go to work or different things, when we come back and re-enter and are present, like you said, that can even strengthen the attachment. They feel more secure knowing it's okay to be apart and then it's okay to come back together.
Jason VanRuler: Absolutely, yeah.
Laura Dugger: Would you elaborate on any thoughts on that? [00:21:42]
Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, exactly. You're just talking about how we model that attachment, right, is that you're okay when I'm here and you're okay when I'm not, and I'll return and you'll know what's going to happen.
A lot of times where the biggest challenges are and where those attachments are really challenging, the things that lead us to places like being anxiously attached or avoidantly or things like that are when we don't know what's going to happen. And so we're left to fill in the blanks.
The problem for kids is that kids have a really limited ability to fill in the blanks with different options. So most of their options are going to be revolving around something that they did or didn't do. That's why it's our job as parents to explain where we're coming from, why we're doing what we're doing, and make sure that they're understanding that we're not going on date night because we don't love you and we want to get away from you. We're going on date night to honor our marriage and we'll return. And so just kind of doing that communication with kids is the thing that really helps them to understand that. [00:22:44]
Laura Dugger: One other piece to follow this further with the parent-child relationship. I think that repair is a huge part here as well. And so do you see secure attachment being also formed when we ask forgiveness from our children and train them how to say they are sorry and ask for forgiveness from us as well?
Jason VanRuler: Definitely. We are really role modeling for them the relationships that they will have for the rest of their life or have to fight against. And so it doesn't have to be perfect. In fact, it shouldn't be and it couldn't be because they are not going to find a perfect relationship in this world.
The ability to really face a mistake or face a disconnect and repair is a skill not a lot of kids get. A lot of times they don't see that done. So having secure attachment is not about being perfect, but it's about knowing how to resolve it when it's not. [00:23:44]
So the goal for us is just to say like, yep, that thing happened. I want to own it and I want to demonstrate what it looks like to actually repair from this because that is a vital skill not only for kids, but even adults. I mean, so often I work with clients who just say, I was never taught how to do this. And it's really, really important.
Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?
Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.
Well, you tell so many stories throughout your book. Would you share a couple of your favorites, including some of the lessons that they taught you? [00:24:45]
Jason VanRuler: Absolutely. I think one of my favorite stories is probably when I'm talking about the experience with my dad where we're tubing. I think that was just a fun story for me.
He took us out and we skipped school, like very irresponsible kids, to go boating with my dad. And I didn't often get a lot of time with my dad, so it was just kind of inherently a big deal. And then I think we drank soda. We did all the things that you're not supposed to do that we did.
And on that trip, he took us tubing behind a boat. As we were doing that, we each were thrown off. I've got a brother and he was thrown off pretty quickly and I wasn't long after, which thanks, Dad, I think that's why I still go to the chiropractor today.
But he had this friend that he was on the tube and my dad pulled him with a boat and just increasingly tried to get the friend to fall off the tube, which is kind of what you do, kind of a fun thing. Everyone's laughing. And he just couldn't. [00:25:43] The friend would be kind of jostled around and thrown and would just keep hanging on and hanging on and hanging on.
Eventually what happened is that it kind of went from this joking thing to like, Hey, I wonder if I can really get him to fly off. And my dad did. It was quite the scene. I talk in the book about I think my Snickers bar was like flying out of the boat. It was just, you know, this madness. The friend flew off and went to get back in the boat and was actually missing a tooth.
You know, we were all kind of laughing about it, but then it took this kind of serious turn because, boy, that cost him something. And I was just really caught up in, "Why didn't you just let go? Why did I let go? My brother let go. You could have done that so much earlier." And he just had said, like, "It just seemed easier to hang on."
I think for me that has stood out throughout my entire life is just this idea of like the open hand, closed hand. Like sometimes it does seem easier to hang on to things we shouldn't than to open our hand and let it go. [00:26:49]
Laura Dugger: Also, will you unpack a lesson that you learned about a news story that popped up, I think it was maybe five or six years ago, but really stuck with you?
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. There was this family and they went to a market and they were going to buy what they thought was a puppy. So they were in Asia. I've never bought a puppy from a market. I'm not sure that I'd recommend it, but they did.
They were just certain that they had bought this puppy and they went home and they began to feed it and do all the things that you do with a puppy. But it didn't take very long before the puppy started to actually consume quite a bit of food and got to be pretty big. And so they're like, "Well, this could just be like a really big version of this dog. We don't know a whole lot about it because we got it at a market. So let's just feed it more and feed it more."
And what happened over time is it started to just eat like this ridiculous amount of food. It was like, This puppy is like... you're not going to go to college because we have to feed the dog. And it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Until finally the family says, "Something is really wrong here. Either we've got the biggest dog in the world or it's not a dog. I don't know." [00:27:58]
So they took it to a vet and they just said, "Hey, here's the thing. We bought this puppy..." and they explained the whole story. And the vet says, "Yeah, well, this is actually an endangered Asiatic bear." So the family had thought they had a puppy, they'd been raising this puppy, and what they were really raising was a bear that was actually pretty dangerous to have at the house.
Laura Dugger: That story just floored me. I'd never heard it before reading your book. But I also loved your takeaways. Can you share the lesson learned for you?
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. We have to be curious. We have to be curious. And not being curious can be really dangerous. Because just doing the thing to do the thing sometimes means that we're growing something that could hurt us. Along the way, we have to ask some questions.
What was interesting to me about the news story was that it had talked about the family really wondering more than once before they ever said anything what was happening and just not doing anything about that. [00:29:08] I think if we're not careful, we do that in our own life, right? We do that thing where our gut is telling us or maybe we're in prayer and we're hearing God say to us, something is not right or something needs to be questioned. And for whatever reason, we just don't. We just don't. We just keep doing more of the same because it seems comfortable and it's what we know.
But the challenge is sometimes it takes us a year or two before we realize we've raised the bear. And then when we raise the bear, we have a whole new set of problems that we never anticipated because it's not what we were trying to do.
Laura Dugger: That is so relatable. Thank you for sharing. We did talk about parenting, and you have so much background working with married couples and studying attachment theory. As we go back to thinking of the secure attachment within marriage, are there any practical tips you recommend for couples to start turning toward one another in a healthy, securely attached way? [00:30:09]
Jason VanRuler: Yeah. We have to understand really what makes us tick as well as what makes our partner tick. What I mean by that is we all have different core needs. We have different attachment styles. We have different things that matter. We have our love languages as an example. We have our primal question. We have all these things that are specific to us.
The best, healthiest couples know the other person. They know what they need, and they give that to them. And so what we really want to do to have a secure relationship is to understand well who our person is and what they need from us, and then do our best to meet them there.
Where we get really off track is when we don't have insight or awareness about that, we're not curious, and we simply try to give them the things that are important to us.
So for me, it's really interesting being anxiously attached and working through that, I needed to know that I was okay. That was something I sought after quite a bit.
Early in our marriage, I would chase after my wife and tell her she was okay. [00:31:13] All the time. I would be like, "You're great." And I would tell her all the things I wished that I could hear. And it didn't work. And I was very frustrated because I'm like, I'm doing literally all the things. Why does this not work for you?
The reason was is she was more on the secure attachment than I was. So she's like, "I actually don't need to hear that. That's not super important to me. That's nice, but it doesn't carry the weight for me that it does for you."
So I think the best, healthiest relationships are not the ones where we're perfect, but the ones where we understand what matters to the other person and we try to meet them there, rather than simply trying to give them what's important to us.
Laura Dugger: Well, you have so much knowledge around psychology and relationships. For anyone who won't get to experience going to school for a counseling degree, will you just share a handful of other useful bits of wisdom you've gained?
Jason VanRuler: Well, it's been a process. [00:32:13] One of the, I think to me, the greatest benefits of becoming a therapist or counselor is that I've gotten to do these things for myself. And I've gotten to learn along the way.
I think some things that I've learned is just that we are all still a work in progress, no matter what. No matter if you've been a therapist for 20 years, or... we're all still working on things. And actually, that's okay. That is totally okay to be doing that.
I think I've also learned, too, that there's a lot of beauty in the difficult spaces. I think we run from the messiness a lot of times. But the truth is, at least in my experience, a lot of times the clients that I work with, God is so present in that space. That is just where God shows up in major ways is in that messy place where we think we're going to be all alone. And so getting to see that has just been such a wonderful thing.
I think also doing what I do has taught me that it's really okay to ask for help. [00:33:12] I'm a great Midwestern guy and so that's not how I was raised is to do that. But doing that is how we get through it, and seeking community who's willing to help, that we can also help in return. That is truly where growth and where health and connection come from.
Laura Dugger: Well, Jason, I know you have a lot more to share. So where can we go after this conversation to learn more from you?
Jason VanRuler: I've got a website. It's jasonvr.com. On that website, you'll find some free resources about relationships. There's actually a course about attachment and some other books that can be read, as well as access to my book.
Then if you're looking for just day-to-day, brief relationship tips, you can go to Instagram. And it's jason.vanruler at Instagram, where I post daily, if not twice daily, about just quick relationship tips and tools, as well as sometimes parenting stuff and dating and all that good stuff. [00:34:14] Because my goal really is just to help people and to get the information in their hands. And so that would be another way that you could find me.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. You may already be aware, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Jason VanRuler: I think for me, you know, I get asked a lot, "How did you do these things? How did you get here?" And I think it really is very simple. In fact, a little too simple. But we ask somebody that knows, and then we do the next right thing. That's it. You just take that next step.
I think for someone like me, who's been, you know, an overthinker my whole life, that sounds very complicated, right? It's like it has to be a trick there. But the truth of the matter is, it is pretty simple. You just take the next step. And when we do that it leads to wonderful places. [00:35:16]
Laura Dugger: Jason, your field of work is not always an easy one to navigate, but it is meaningful and purposeful. So thank you for walking alongside so many people and sharing your insights with us, both through your book and now this conversation. I just want to say thank you for being my guest.
Jason VanRuler: Well, I appreciate it. I've loved our conversation today, and it is truly an honor and privilege to get to do the work I do.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:36:21]
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:37:21] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:38:23]
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jan 15, 2024
Monday Jan 15, 2024
220. Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman
1 Peter 4:8 (NIV) "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
How can a thriving, intimate marriage become our reality?
-
What are practical ways we can discover and speak each of our children's love languages?
-
What have you observed to be the best seeds to sow in children's youth, in hopes of cultivating their character and pointing them toward the Lord?
Gary Chapman, Ph.D.—author, speaker, pastor, and counselor—has a passion for people, and for helping them form lasting relationships. Chapman is a well-known marriage counselor and director of marriage seminars. The 5 Love Languages® is one of Chapman’s most popular titles, topping various bestseller charts for years, selling over thirteen million copies, and has been on the New York Times best-sellers list continuously since 2007. Chapman has been directly involved in real-life family counseling for more than 30 years, and his nationally syndicated radio programs air nationally on Moody Radio Network and over 400 affiliate stations. For more information visit www.5lovelanguages.com
Attend a 5 Love Languages Event
Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce featuring Dr. Gary Chapman:
5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
Things I Wish I'd Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman
Friendships Heal Racial Divides with Dr. Clarence Shuler and Dr. Gary Chapman
Francie Hinrichsen's Episode on The Savvy Sauce:
Episode 132 Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Things I Wish I'd Known Before My Child Became a Teenager
The 5 Love Languages of Teenagers
A Teen's Guide to the 5 Love Languages
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business by Francie Hinrichsen
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: If you are looking to start a business or side hustle but you're not sure how to begin, I want to encourage you to pick up your copy of Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. You can find it at foundingfemalesco.com.
You're probably already familiar with today's returning guest, Dr. Gary Chapman. He is best known for his work with the 5 Love Languages, but he also has written resources on many other topics that are so beneficial.
Today, we're going to be focusing on lessons from one of his books, 5 Traits of a Healthy Family.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Chapman.
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, thank you, Laura. It's great to be back with you again. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: I'd love to hear some of your personal experience. So going back to when you and Karolyn were raising your children, Shelley and Derek, you had one unique request from a young man named John. So will you share that story with us?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Yes. John had graduated from the University of North Carolina and had moved to Winston Salem, where we live. And for the summer, he had worked helping, volunteering in our church. But at the end of the summer, he had a job as a schoolteacher. And he came to me and he said, he said, "Gary, I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. My father was an alcoholic." And he said, "I really don't know what a healthy family looks like." And he said, "I wonder if you would allow me to move in and live with you all this year so that I could just observe what a healthy family looks like." [00:02:17]
Well, Laura, I took a deep breath and I said what any wise husband would say, "Well, John, let me talk with Karolyn about that." So I shared the idea with Karolyn and she kind of liked it. And I said, "Really? You think that would be okay?" She said, "I think it would be good." And I said, "Well, what about the kids?" And she said, "Well, let's just talk to the kids about it." We had a conversation with our kids and they thought it would be good to have a big brother in the house.
So I said, "Well, let's pray about it. So we prayed for a couple of days and then we agreed, "Okay, let's give it a try." I said to her, "Well, honey, where is he going to sleep? We've only got three bedrooms and they're already full." She said, "Well, the basement is just open. We could put a wall down there and put a door in and he could have he could sleep... that'd be his room." I said, "Well, okay." So we did.
John lived with us for a whole year and just was a part of the family. And we made him a part of the family. [00:03:24] He had things that he did, chores that he did, just like the kids on their level had things they did. So it was a very unique experience. But he was there for everything. He was there for breakfast in our devotional time we had after breakfast. He was there at night when we had devotions with the kids and so forth and so on. He saw the whole thing.
And he says, looking back on that, that he has no idea what his life would be like if he had not spent that year with us. Of course, he's married now and has children as his own ministry and all of that.
But it was a unique experience. But, you know, it wasn't a totally new concept for me, because when I was a senior at Wheaton College, I lived with the unofficial Navigator representative who lived in Wheaton, he and his wife, Jim Merck. They had five children and they had four of us guys who actually lived in two rooms upstairs in their house. And they integrated us into their family. We helped mow grass and wash dishes and all that kind of thing. [00:04:25]
So the concept was not totally new to me, but the experience was new to me. But we're all glad that we did. And so are the kids.
Laura Dugger: I'm so curious then, because most of us won't have that type of experience. But was there anything that he pointed out, even in later years, that you learned about your family through the eyes of an outsider, really?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, he talked about how Karolyn and I related to each other, because by this time we had our marriage together. You know, we would not have had him in our house for the first three years of our marriage or he would never have gotten married because we were having all kinds of struggles in those early years of our marriage.
But he saw the way we treated each other with dignity and respect and he saw also how we were investing in the lives of our children. He talks about that at the time at breakfast, the time of the evening, and then going and kneeling beside their bed every night and praying for them individually. [00:05:25] So it helped me see... I already believe these things were important. But an outsider looking in on them, you know, just confirmed how important that is.
Laura Dugger: Well, and there's one other story that really stood out from your book. So will you share what made the boys from Carolina so memorable and help us understand how that lesson can translate into our own parenting today?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, there's four of those guys, John was one of them. There's four of those guys that came to the end of the school year. They all graduated from University of North Carolina and they came to live in Winston-Salem. They all got jobs for the summer and they all lived together.
They came to me, I was leading our discipleship ministry in our church and they came to me and said, "You know, we were in the Navigators Christian group on campus and we were all working for the summer, but we would like to serve the church and do something to help the church." [00:06:25]
And I was thinking they were asking for like leadership positions to work and lead the young people or da da da da da. And I said, "Well, you know, we really pretty much have all of our personnel selected for those kind of leadership positions." And they said, "No, no, no, no, no, we're not talking about leadership. We're talking about we would like to serve the church."
I said, "Well, what do you have in mind?" They said, "Well, we know you have a dinner on every Wednesday night, and we'd like maybe to wash the dishes or clean up the tables afterwards or mop the floors or, you know, just things like that."
I said, "Oh, well, yeah, I think we have some opportunities for you to serve." I was just kind of shocked, you know? But they were demonstrating what I believe is the fundamental principle of daily living for a Christian, and that is we're here to serve other people.
You know, Jesus said about Himself, "I did not come to be served. [00:07:26] I came to serve and then, of course, to give my life a ransom for others." So they were demonstrating what I have come to believe to be the fundamental lifestyle of every Christian, at least it should be.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Are you starting a business or side hustle this year? There is a book I love and I want to personally recommend because it takes the guesswork out of what to do next. It's entitled Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. It's available at foundingfemalesco.com.
With over 300 pages of proven business tips and tricks, Dream, Build, Grow is perfect for anyone searching for how to start a business from the ground up. It is written by Francie Hinrichsen, who is an entrepreneur and my personal friend. I've collaborated with her on work projects in the past, and I can vouch for her work ethic.
She delights in over-delivering to her clients with excellence and care. [00:08:33] And if you're interested in getting to know her a little bit better, she was also a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce. So I will add her episode in the show notes for today's episode.
Francie's integrity makes it easy to personally recommend her work. This book is a download of her years of business knowledge and experience. I've read this book cover to cover, and it actually lives on our special bookshelf that I reserve for all the books I would reread over and over again, and that I want to encourage our daughters to also read as they grow up. So I'm so excited for you to get your own copy and begin pursuing your dream.
Francie's book has already received over 25-star reviews on Amazon, and readers say they loved the guidance on exactly how to gain clarity, save time, and build a business that works for the modern woman's lifestyle.
Dream, Build, Grow: A Female Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business by Francie Hinrichsen provides realistic, achievable, and step-by-step guidance to finally start the business you've been dreaming about. [00:09:43]
You can also save 10% when you use the code SAVVY at foundingfemalesco.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: You even translated this in your book into an encouragement to parents to go and do likewise. Would you like to elaborate on that at all?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Yeah, I really think that one of the traits of a healthy family, and one of the things that motivated me to write this book for families is I know that there's so many people that grew up in dysfunctional families, and they don't have a picture of a healthy family.
I just believe that one of the fundamental aspects of a healthy family is that there'll be an attitude of service in that family. The husband will have an attitude of serving his wife. She'll have an attitude of serving him. They will serve the children. They will then teach the children at their appropriate age to serve each other and then to serve mom and to serve dad.
And then we take that outside the family. At appropriate ages, we take them outside the family to do service projects to other people outside. [00:10:44] It may be taking them to a food pantry, you know, to help fix up boxes to give out to those who are hungry.
One of the things I did with our kids when they were 10, 11, 12, long in there, I would get them in the car, the two of them, we have a son and daughter, put rakes in the back of our car and drive through the neighborhood in the fall. And they're looking for yards that had not been raked.
So I'd knock on the door and say, "I'm Gary Chapman. I live down the street here and I'm trying to teach my children how to serve other people. So if you don't mind, we'd like to rake your leaves." And they would say, "Say what?" And I'd repeat my little speech and they'd say, "Oh, I will pay you to rake our leaves. I've been looking for someone to rake our leaves." I said, "No, I don't want money. I'm just trying to teach our children how to serve other people."
You know, Laura, I never had anyone who would not let us rake their leaves. The kids were learning this is what our family is all about. You know, we serve other people. They grow up like that, you're getting them ready for a life of service. [00:11:46]
Laura Dugger: It reminds me of that famous quote to share the gospel at all times, use words only when necessary. I just think that's a way for others to even get to encounter Jesus when we hear so often be his hands and feet. And so that's a great example.
Early on in your book, you also discuss our innate longing for closeness and you teach more about healthy communication that fosters intimacy in marriage. So will you elaborate on healthy communication and even discuss all five of the steps to intimacy?
Dr. Gary Chapman: I think in a healthy family, there will be intimacy between the husband and wife. You know, the scriptures say the two become one. It's speaking of deep intimacy.
Now, a lot of people in our culture, when they hear the word intimacy, they think only of the sexual part of marriage. But it's far, far more than that. It's intellectual intimacy, sharing your thoughts, your dreams, your desires, your opinions with each other. [00:12:53]
And some couples have lost that. They don't have intellectual intimacy because they shared an idea and the other person will say, "Well, that's not right." You know, they get into an argument because they shared an idea or shared a dream.
So there's intellectual intimacy and we're listening to each other, treating each other's ideas with respect. And then there's emotional intimacy: meeting each other's emotional needs. That's where the 5 Love Languages can be so helpful to them. They learn that, they speak each other's language, and they feel love. They're meeting emotional needs.
And then there's social intimacy. That is, the two of them are doing things with other people in a healthy family. That can be, you know, going to church because you're interfacing with other people. They can be going to a ballgame together. But you're doing it with other people and sharing life with each other. So social intimacy.
Then there's spiritual intimacy. We're sharing our walk with God, with each other. I don't mean preaching to each other, Laura. "Now, I read this in the Bible this morning and I think you need to hear this." [00:13:53] I don't mean that.
I mean, "Honey, I read this this morning. It was so meaningful to me. I want to share it with you. It's sharing our spiritual walk with each other.
And then, yes, physical intimacy. But physical intimacy is impacted by all the other areas of intimacy. If we don't build intimacy in these other areas, all of which requires, you know, communication with each other, then we're not likely to have mutual sexual fulfillment. So to me, in a healthy family, that's what's going on between the husband and the wife.
Laura Dugger: That kind of goes along with something that I've always heard is that the best thing you can do for your children is give them a good marriage. I'll just quote something that you write on page 55 where you say, "I am fully convinced that my greatest contribution to the children of this generation lies in helping their mothers and fathers build intimate marriages," end quote. So, Dr. Chapman, how can a thriving and intimate marriage become our reality? [00:14:57]
Dr. Gary Chapman: I think it's step-by-step. I talk to people about a growing marriage. I never talk about a perfect marriage. I talk about a growing marriage. Because marriages are either growing or they are regressing. They never stand still.
So what I'm saying to couples is, Okay, here's a pattern of intimacy that I've just laid out in the book. Of course, I deal with that even more and more deeply. But let's begin to work on these things. Which one do you think needs more help right now? Intellectual intimacy or social intimacy and so forth. Let's begin to work on these things. Let's see ourselves growing.
One way to grow in intimacy is to share a book together. And by "share a book", I don't mean that one of you reads it and highlights it and says the other, "You need to read this." I don't mean that. I mean, you say, "Honey, why don't we share this book?" Any good Christian book on marriage. "Why don't we share this book?"
So we each read the chapter. Same chapter. At the end of the week, we each say to the other, What do you think we can learn out of that chapter that might help us? [00:16:00] I can tell you by the time you get through the book, you're going to have a better marriage. I don't care what book it is. If it's a Christian book on marriage, you're going to have a better marriage. So to me, that's the way you grow to have the kind of marriage that is the model for your children.
Laura Dugger: I love that practical tip. I found chapter five to be especially helpful where you talk about raising our children with both nurture and discipline. Discipline is something that we hear a lot of people would love guidance on how to parent their children in this way. But will you elaborate on the ways that various approaches play out?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Yeah. I think we want to use words and actions. That's the way children learn: words and actions together. In our culture, we tend to lean to one extreme or the other. We either have the concept that, look, just explain to your children what you want them to do. And they're intelligent. And if you explain it clearly, then they'll be motivated to do it. [00:17:02]
But if they don't, if the children don't do it, what do they do? Then explain it again. "Now, honey, let me tell you this one more time," and explain it again, usually a little louder than the first time. And before long, they're yelling at the kids. "Don't you get this?"
What I'm saying is, no, no, no, use words to be sure, but put actions with the words. Here's an illustration that I've often used. The mother's fixing dinner. She goes to the door. Little Johnny's playing in the neighbor's yard and she says, "Johnny, dinner." Little Johnny just keeps on playing as though he hadn't heard anything.
And then she does that a second time. And then she goes back in a minute or two and does it a third time. The fourth time she goes, she says, "Johnny, get home." And little Johnny comes home.
Why did Johnny come home on number four and not on number one, two, three? Because he learned that when Mama says, "Get home," if he doesn't come home, Mother will come down there in the neighborhood, take him by the hand, action, take him by the hand, and walk him home. [00:18:06] And he doesn't want Mama in the neighborhood. So he'll come home on that one.
So I say to mothers, if you want your son or daughter to come home on the first call, all you have to do is take the action that you normally do on number four and move it up to number one and you won't walk them home at one time. And they'll come on the first call.
So tell them you're going to change the paradigm. Don't shock them. Tell them. "I've been listening to this program, you know, this podcast. Really, really good. Here's what I learned." Oh, yeah. Words and actions.
Laura Dugger: Then on the country, if it's just actions, how does that play out?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, what they tend to do is they tell them they tell them one time and if they don't do it, then, you know, they tell them loudly and kind of whack them on the back. "I told you to do this. Now get in there and do it." Those parents often end up physically abusing their children. I mean, hitting their children, pushing their children, physically abusing their children. And either extreme, either extreme is negative, verbal abuse or physical abuse. [00:19:08]
What we want is the middle of the road where we're putting our words and our actions together. We're teaching the children how to respond to the things that we think need to be done.
Laura Dugger: And then if we're trying to take a more proactive approach, what are some practical ways that we can discover and speak each of our children's love languages?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, it's extremely important that we learn their love language. I've said to parents often, the question is not, do you love your children? The question is, do your children feel love? If you're not speaking their primary language, they will not feel loved, even though you're loving them in some of the other languages.
Here are three informal ways to discover a child's love language. First of all, observe their behavior. How do they typically respond to you and to other people? For example, my son's love language is physical touch. And you can learn a child's love language by the time they're 4 years old. I mean, it's there early. [00:20:08]
When I would come home from work, he would run to the door, grab my legs and climb on me. He's touching me because he wants to be touched. So how do they respond to you? My daughter never did that. She would say at that age, "Daddy, come into my room. I want to show you something." She wanted quality time. She wanted my undivided attention. So observe their behavior, how they respond to you and other people.
Secondly, what do they complain about most often? The complaint reveals the love language. I had a mother say to me recently, she said, "Gary, my 6-year-old son said to me, "We don't ever go to the park anymore since the baby came." He used to have his mother's quality time, undivided attention. He and his mother at the park together. Now the baby's here, he's not getting it. And he's telling her. So listen to their complaints. What do they complain about?
Then thirdly, what do they request of you most often? [00:21:10] If they're saying most often, "Mommy, can we play together? Can we play together? Can we play together?" they're asking you for quality time. If they're saying I need a hug, they're asking you for physical touch.
If you put those three things together, observe their behavior, how they respond to you and others, what do they complain about, and what do they request, you can pretty well figure out a child's love language very early, certainly by four years of age.
Laura Dugger: There is an exciting project taking place behind the scenes right now, and I would love to invite you to participate. I will give you more details as I'm able. But for now, here's my request.
Will you email me your personal story of a specific way God has clearly shown up in your life? Big or small, I want to hear an account of the way He made Himself known to you and maybe received credit for an answered prayer or a way he worked out a situation in a miraculous way or how He displayed his power in your life. [00:22:12] There's no limit to the type of story to submit as long as it's true.
So please email me your story at this email address, info@thestavisauce.com. I can't wait to read your story. Thanks for sharing. And what have you observed to be the best seeds to sow in children's youth in hopes of cultivating their character and pointing them to the Lord?
Dr. Gary Chapman: I think it's exposing them starting early in their life to the things of God. That's why the devotional brief devotional time we had every morning at the breakfast table in which I just read a verse of scripture and we might make a comment or two about it and then have a prayer. And then in the evening when we would have the whole family together, all for all four of us.
One of us, Karolyn and I, would read a Bible earlier. We'd read a Bible story to them. Later we read the Bible to them. And then kneeling by their bed. [00:23:17] And either Karolyn and I would go every night to one of their bedsides and kneel by the bed and pray for them. They eventually learned to pray as well.
It's making the Christian life, the scriptures, our relationship with God central to our family. This is what our family does. And when we expose them to that throughout those years, they're far more likely to come to receive Christ when they get to an age, they're old enough to understand, you know, what that means.
So, to me, it's those kinds of things. Then obviously treating each other with dignity and respect and giving them a positive model of how husbands and wives relate to each other. Those things are exceedingly important. There are seeds that grow up to strengthen them and lead them to Christ.
Laura Dugger: Just thinking through your study of different cultures and your many hours interacting with families, what themes have you noticed that you see are both best practices for families and also the ones that are the most destructive practices? [00:24:22]
Dr. Gary Chapman: I think I would say the most constructive thing that we can do with our children is to not only love them and speak their primary love language on a regular basis, but also sprinkle in the other four because we want the child to learn how to receive love and give love in all five languages.
We talk about this in our family. Mommy has a love language. Daddy has a love language. Sister has a love language. Brother has a love language. We want to speak each other's language, but there are other ways to express love too. We want to learn how to do this.
The healthiest adult is the one who learned how to speak all five languages when they were a child. Not many people did. And they grow up and some of these languages, they don't know how to speak. And they get married and find out their spouse's language is something that they don't know how to speak.
So on the constructive side, I think that plus the spiritual dimension that we talked about is really central.
In terms of destructive, I think the worst thing that can happen to influence children in a negative way is for mom and dad to always be arguing with each other and the kids hear them yelling and screaming at each other and telling them that's not right. [00:25:37] And sometimes even cursing each other. I mean, can you imagine that? But it happens.
I think when they see parents like that, they grow up, they have no idea what a healthy marriage looks like. That's what the young man, John, was telling me. He said, "Dr. Gary, I don't know what a healthy marriage looks like." And so they grow up without any concept of how to have a good marriage.
So we're setting them up for failure in marriage when they just see us arguing with each other and never see us loving each other, you know, and speaking kindly to each other and touching each other and speaking the love languages to each other. So yeah, to me, that's the best and the worst thing that could be done.
Laura Dugger: Well, I love that. I find that so fascinating that you answer one of the worst things we can do for our kids is something that actually originates in our marriage. I think there's some profound wisdom in there.
So even culturally as we see, and as a parent myself, I see the struggle of leaning toward being a kid-centered family and yet knowing that that is destructive. [00:26:44] So do you have any encouragement for families to get it back to, I mean, ideally Christ-centered, but also marriage-focused before the children type of family?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Yeah. I think to share a book on marriage and then share a book on parenting, Christian perspective in both of those kinds of books. When you read those and you're asking yourself, you know, what can we learn from this chapter, you're constantly growing, you're constantly having a better marriage and you're constantly learning how to relate to your children in a more positive manner.
Like in this book, you know, I discuss the whole thing of when you give a rule to a child, tell them what the discipline is going to be if they don't do it. Don't just give them the rule.
Let's say the rule is going to be, We don't throw the ball inside the house. We throw the ball in the yard, but not in the house." And if you do, you'll have to put the ball in the trunk of the car for two days and you can't play with it. [00:27:45]
Now the child understands the rule and the consequences. You're not likely to lose your temper when they throw the ball in the house because you already know and they know you just say, "Johnny, Mary, I'm so proud of you. You seldom break the rules, but you know, you broke this one. You threw the ball in the house. So you know what has to happen, right?" And they start crying and they nod their head. "Well, let's go out to the car and you go out and put the ball in the trunk of the car." And then you say, "But listen, I love you so much. I'm so proud of you because you seldom break the rules." Wow.
You know, they know the discipline, you know the discipline and you wrap the discipline in love and they learn. To me, that's the most powerful thing you can do in terms of teaching children how to follow rules. And we all need to follow rules and respect the authority of parents.
One of the major problems in our country is we have thousands of people that don't respect authority. The school teachers say to me, "Gary, I spent half my time just trying to keep order in the classroom because they don't respect the teacher." [00:28:50] So teaching them how to respect parents as the authority, the loving, who makes rules because we love them, man, that's powerful.
Laura Dugger: Well, that's such a great takeaway to get on the same page and to have a book as our outside helper. It makes me think of the proverb that says, "The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding."
Gary, you are one who has many resources that can help us get wisdom and understanding. So where can we go after this chat to learn more from you?
Dr. Gary Chapman: If they go to 5lovelanguages.com, the number five, 5lovelanguages.com, you can see a little blurb on all my books, and most of them you can actually order there, or you can order them from Amazon, but you get some descriptions there. You'll also find out where I do marriage conferences all over the country. I do 10 of them a year in major cities around the country. So you can see where I'm going to be. I'd love to meet some of your listeners if they're anywhere near where I'm going to be. [00:29:55]
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add a link to our show notes in today's episode with all of those websites. I just have one more question for you. You are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Dr. Chapman, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, I would have to say it's learning your spouse's love language and choosing to speak it. So if you don't know your spouse's love language, let me encourage you to go online, again to 5lovelanguages.com, and take the quiz for married couples.
You take it individually, it will tell you what your love language is: your primary, your secondary, and the one that's least important.
Learn each other's love language. And then listen, choose to speak that language, even if you have to work hard to learn it because you didn't get it as a child. I don't know anything that, any one thing that would create a more positive climate in your marriage than learning and speaking each other's love language. [00:30:59]
Laura Dugger: Well, Dr. Chapman, this is your fourth time being a guest on The Savvy Sauce. I love to keep inviting you back because you continue to share this godly wisdom that is timeless and you're so endearing with your kind tone and humble stance. So thank you for being a great role model to each of us. And thank you sincerely for being my guest today.
Dr. Gary Chapman: Well, thank you, Laura. I appreciate what you're doing. So keep up the good work.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:32:08]
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:33:09] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:34:11]
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jan 08, 2024
Monday Jan 08, 2024
Special Patreon Re-Release: Strategies to Overcome Perfectionism with Jill Savage
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 18:32 (NLT) “God arms me with strength, and he makes my way perfect.”
Jill Savage is an author and speaker who is passionate about encouraging families. She is the author or co-author of twelve books. Featured on Focus on the Family, Crosswalk.com, Family Life Today and Today’s Christian Woman magazine, Jill is the founder of Hearts at Home, an organization that encouraged moms from 1994-2017. Jill and her husband, Mark, have five children, three who are married, two granddaughters and one grandson. They make their home in Normal, Illinois.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Jill Savage:
Living With Less So Your Family Has More
Better Together by Jill Savage and Anne McClane
No More Perfect Marriages by Mark and Jill Savage
No More Perfect Kids by Jill Savage and Dr. Kathy Koch
Need a Next Step? Try Mark & Jill’s FREE 4 week e-challenge here!
Jill's book that released in August
Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release. So, here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we would express our thanks to those paying Patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.
But now, we have some exciting news. [00:01:17] We are transitioning away from Patreon because we recently launched The Savvy Sauce Charities, a nonprofit to inspire us to grow in intimacy with God and others. This podcast will be moving under that nonprofit umbrella on January 1st, 2024. That means after January 1st of 2024, your financial contributions to The Savvy Sauce Charities will still support our work and keep us on the air, but they will also be a tax write-off for you.
We try to make as much of our material free to the general population, but it's only possible when some generous listeners show their support through financial backing. We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they are beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life and in ours. [00:02:19]
So if that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, you may have heard me say before, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset all of our costs.
We will have updates on our website, thesavvysauce.com, in the coming months, but feel free to reach out anytime to any member of our team if you want to partner together. Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.
And now I'm thrilled to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Jill
Jill Savage: Thank you. It's good to be with you again.
Laura Dugger: Hopefully our listeners have already heard your previous episode, but can you just give us a quick recap of who you are?
Jill Savage: Well, I am a wife. My husband and I have been married 35 years, 25 of them happily. [00:03:22] And that makes up much of our ministry is to marriages. I'm a mom of five. My kids are all now grown, and I'm a nana to three.
I run a ministry called JAM Savage Ministries along with my husband. JAM stands for Jill and Mark Savage Ministries. We do marriage events. I speak at women's events. We do a lot of marriage coaching. I do writer and speaker coaching.
And we run a lot of online resources. We run a marriage membership site called nomoreperfectdatenight.com. Probably our most popular posts on the blog are what we call Marriage Monday that my husband and I do together. So we stay very, very busy.
Laura Dugger: Yes, you do. Well, let's just jump right into one of the topics that you've covered before in your books, in your blog. How did you decide to teach others to resist the pressure to chase after perfectionism? [00:04:22]
Jill Savage: Well, I only write about the things that I screwed up. That's really what that came from, because that was a personal struggle for me. That was a place where God was really growing me. And the more I began to talk about that with others, the more I realized that I was not alone in this struggle.
So I first wrote No More Perfect Moms and identified what I call the perfection infection. The perfection infection is when we unfairly compare ourselves to others and we have unrealistic expectations of ourselves.
I think as moms, we struggle with this in so many areas. We struggle with it with our body. We struggle with it with our home. We struggle with it with hospitality, parenting, marriage, all of that.
My second book dealing with that was No More Perfect Kids. No More Perfect Kids looks at when the perfection infection invades our parenting, what happens? [00:05:26] And that's when we have unrealistic expectations of our kids and we unfairly compare our kids to others. That really can be damaging. We have to recognize when that's happening.
Then eventually No More Perfect Marriages, which is where we took a look at what happens when the perfection infection invades our marriage. We have unrealistic expectations of marriage in general. And we unfairly compare our marriage to other marriages. Here's what we're doing. We're comparing the outsides of other marriages to the insides of our marriage. And that's a dangerous comparison. It's not fair. Or we have unrealistic expectations of our spouse or of marriage.
Man, those expectations are just killers in all areas of our life. And that is when perfectionism really begins to rob us of contentment. And that's really at the heart of what happens with perfectionism. [00:06:25] I like to say that perfectionism is this really, really high bar and real life is several feet below that bar. And the space in between real life and perfectionism or unrealistic expectations, that space in between is discontentment.
When we are in perpetual discontentment, it fuels anxiety, it fuels depression and it certainly fuels discontentment in general in all areas of our life.
Laura Dugger: What are the lies in perfectionism and what truths have you found that we can rest in instead?
Jill Savage: You know, the lies really come down to the things that we tell ourselves. For instance, one of the places I struggle with is I believe that excellence is important. I've always been a high achiever and tried to do everything excellent. But the truth is, if I really look at it closely, I don't really expect excellence. [00:07:29] I expect perfection. And that's an unrealistic expectation.
So that's a lie I tell myself is that all I really want is excellence. But the truth is I want more than that. And what I have to recognize is on this side of heaven, excellence is attainable, perfection is not. And so just recognizing that.
I think another lie is in perfectionism we often feel like we don't measure up and nobody else measures up either because our expectations are so high off the chart. So the truth that battles that lie is “I am enough”. I am enough as I am imperfect and all. So recognizing that and replacing that lie with that truth is a gift we need to give to ourselves and to those that we love as well. [00:08:28]
I would say that a third lie that I think we struggle with is that we will tell ourselves that something is a realistic expectation but in reality, it's an unrealistic expectation. And so we're lying to ourselves when we're saying... Okay, I'll give you an example. A lot of times people will say marriage shouldn't be this hard. Well, that's an unrealistic expectation. Marriage is hard. Period. Every married couple is incompatible. Every married couple is wonderfully incompatible.
Marriage just forces us to have to learn to deal with those incompatibilities. It forces us to learn how to give grace and kindness to people who are different than us. So marriage is hard work. So a lot of times we tell ourselves lies like it shouldn't be this hard. And so that causes discontentment. And it really is a lie because the truth is it is hard work. [00:09:29]
Laura Dugger: Let's just dive a little bit further into these various areas that we may battle with perfectionism, beginning with expecting perfection internally within ourselves. So, for starters, what are some good questions to identify if this is an unspoken expectation that we might have unnecessarily placed on ourselves?
Jill Savage: I would say one of the first things is, where are you constantly disappointed? If you can identify. Maybe it's in a relationship. Maybe it's with you, maybe you're constantly disappointed that you can never get on top of the laundry. Maybe it's just something as simple as a daily activity like that, but you're going into it expecting to get six loads done in one day and then you're disappointed because you only got three done.
A lot of times the best place for us to pay attention to what's going on internally and what we are saying to ourselves when we talk to ourselves is to identify the places where we are perpetually disappointed. [00:10:36] Because that'll give us a clue at where we probably have some unrealistic expectations.
Laura Dugger: What is our next step?
Jill Savage: I think our next step is then to ask ourselves, what is a realistic expectation? Maybe you do laundry once a week and I needed to get six loads done, but for the last four weeks, I've only gotten three loads done. You have to look at it and go, So what's a realistic expectation here? Can I get six loads done in a day? No, I cannot. I can only get three loads done in a day or two or one or whatever it is.
If we constantly are disappointed in the outcome of what happens, we probably have set some unrealistic goals.
A next step would be, okay, so maybe I need to do laundry twice a week and I need to expect to get no more than three loads done. Or maybe I need to do it three times a week and I need to expect to get no more than two loads done. [00:11:38]
And so what we do is we take a look at: where have we been disappointed? What have we been able to accomplish in that? What's a more realistic expectation? And then that actually inserts both joy and a sense of contentment and accomplishment to replace the perfectionism.
Laura Dugger: Now let's talk about the temptation to pursue perfection externally, beginning with body image. What wisdom can you share about resisting the urge to focus our energy on having the perfect body?
Jill Savage: Oh, I think particularly as women we struggle with this because the media has done us no favors. You know, we go through the grocery store checkout line and we see the front of the magazines and you see this skinny celebrity and it says body after baby, three months. And you look down at yours and you're like, Body after baby, three years, never looked like that. [00:12:40]
I think we have some pretty unrealistic expectations that are presented as possible. The truth is that magazine cover has been photoshopped and that is not how she looks in real life. So we have to recognize where these messages are coming from. They are setting up absolutely impossible standards.
In fact, this all started years ago with the Barbie doll. If a real woman had the measurements of a Barbie doll, I mean, she would not be able to live. Her organs will not fit into that size body. And so I think we have to recognize where that's coming from.
And we have to change our goals. Instead of maybe a certain weight or a certain size, we need to focus instead of appearance on health and taking care of our body, being intentional about the health of our body, stewarding the care of our body. [00:13:45] That is a better goal. And that is an absolute better pursuit of excellence and will steer us out of that area of perfection that often happens more with appearance.
Laura Dugger: What about this desire to have the perfect home or perfect meals for our families? Will you speak into that?
Jill Savage: I think all of us could do our fair share of helping to rid the world of perfectionism by sharing our good and our bad. We're quick to share snapshots of when something looks really good, but we're hesitant when something looks really bad. People have to live in a home. So we have to recognize that it has to be livable.
Now, everybody has their own tolerance level of clutter. So you have to find what your tolerance level is. We certainly have to take care of the things that we have. [00:14:45] And part of that is stewardship. But at the same time, it's so important for us to understand that it is impossible to have a perfect home, to have a perfect schedule. So we've really got to learn to give each other grace.
I will never forget this. I had come home from a trip. I do a lot of speaking in the spring and the fall, sometimes back-to-back trips. So I get off an airplane, I'm home for a couple days, I'm repacked and on another airplane somewhere else. This had been one of those like three, four weeks where I've done that.
Instead of unpacking and repacking the suitcase, I'd gotten lazy and just grabbed another suitcase. So I had all these open suitcases and clothes everywhere. I mean it looked like the suitcase had exploded. Clothes everywhere in my bedroom.
I remember saying to myself, "All right, this weekend I have to..." I always call it I'm declaring war on this when I have a project like that. I'm like, "I'm declaring war in my bedroom this weekend." [00:15:50] And then I caught myself and I went, "You know what, I'm going to take a picture of this and I'm going to post it on Facebook." And I did.
I mean, I took a picture. The bed was unmade. There were dozens of clothes everywhere, suitcases laying open. And I said, "This is my current reality. What's yours?" And I'm going to tell you that thing came as close to viral as I think I have ever had.
And women were snapping pictures of their kitchen counters that were covered in dishes and they were snapping pictures of their kid's room and snapping pictures of the interior of their car. I mean, it was so freeing for all of us to see that we all struggle with staying on top of stuff. This is the reality that most of us are experiencing in some way, shape, or form. I think that was a gift we all gave each other that day.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. [00:16:51] Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage.
Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.
I've stayed on site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. [00:17:50] To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: I know that you have a unique take on Professionalizing Motherhood. So we are talking to the stay-at-home moms as well as working moms when we talk about work, but let's just clarify, what do you mean by professionalizing motherhood?
Jill Savage: Well, Professionalizing Motherhood was my absolute first book, which is amazing. It's been in print 20 years and still is. It's still one of the most popular books out there for stay-at-home moms.
It really looks at the concept that what we do every day when we take care of our family, we need to treat it as a profession. If a mother is an at-home mom, you know, our tendency is to say, when somebody says, what do you do, our tendency is to say, Oh, I'm just a mom. [00:18:53] And that word "just" has so many negative implications.
My call to moms at home was, no, you're not "just" an at-home mom. You're a woman committed to the profession of motherhood. And what that does, when we are able to say that, it raises motherhood to the place that it needs to be in our minds, that we give it our best. We pursue it as a profession. So we seek professional continuing education. We set goals. We get up and treat it like we were going to work, take a shower, do our hair, actually take some pride in what it is that we do each and every day.
And when I began to do that as an at-home mom, I became a more intentional mom. My family didn't get my leftovers. They started getting my strategic best.
I think for a woman who works outside the home and has children, she is also committed to the profession of motherhood. [00:19:54] But she has two professions, the one she gets paid for and the one that she doesn't get paid for, at least not monetarily. But she has to still approach what she does at home for her family as a profession. And she will be a more intentional mom for it as well.
Laura Dugger: I love it. What are some ways that we can identify if we're sliding too far to either extreme in our work, whether we're all consumed by it or neglecting our responsibilities? And that's for stay-at-home moms or working moms, all of that considered work.
Jill Savage: You know, I think that too often we can become siloed or super focused in one area or another. I think we can also so easily slide towards the things that are natural to us and miss out on the things that maybe we have to work a little harder at. [00:20:53]
You know, for me, I'm natural at organizing and leading things but I'm not real natural at being the fun mom. And so my kids, they learned responsibility. I had them where they needed to be on time. I knew what their schedule was and how to manage their schedule. But I had to really stretch myself to go out and jump rope with them or to sit down and play with blocks. Because that's not where I naturally excel. And I really had to stretch myself in that.
So I think that the place that we can maybe go one way or the other is often the place that we're most comfortable in. But relationships, whether it's work or home, they need a balance from us.
I think one of the best things we can do is pay attention to the places that maybe we aren't naturally drawn to but that we can grow, we can be stretched, and then we can be probably a little bit more rounded of a person in whatever profession it is that we're dealing with. [00:22:05]
Laura Dugger: What are the dangers of expecting our kids to be perfect?
Jill Savage: Well, probably the biggest danger is that our kids will get to the place where they will throw their hands up in the air and say, "You know what, I can't make her happy. Nothing I do can make her happy."
Or it can be, as Dr. Kathy Cook and I talked about in our book No More Perfect Kids, our kids can begin to throw their hands up and say, "You know what, I don't feel like my parents love me. They only love me when I do things their way." And that becomes conditional love.
I think that oftentimes, especially when we are stretched thin, we don't have a lot of margin or capacity for differences. We don't have a lot of margin or capacity for kids doing things at their own pace. And that's when perfectionism or at least the feeling of having unrealistic expectations of our kids can creep in there, and we can actually send wrong messages to our kids. [00:23:11]
Laura Dugger: What are some of the underlying reasons that we have this expectation?
Jill Savage: Well, it goes back to perfectionism on our part. How many of us have said, at your age? And then if we've really thought about it, they are. I think oftentimes our expectations are unrealistic. They're off the charts. We really have to evaluate those expectations and recognize that we are expecting some pretty unrealistic things out of our kids. That is a gift. If we can have realistic expectations of our kids, that's a gift that we can give to them because then they feel accepted, valued, encouraged, and they don't feel like they're constantly disappointing us.
Laura Dugger: I want to pick your brain here. How can we proactively lead our children rather than reactively respond to their misbehavior? [00:24:14]
Jill Savage: I think as parents, one of the places that we so easily miss the boat is to recognize that we are a leader. We are a leader. A lot of us would say, I'm not a leader at all. Well, if you have children, you are. Because they're following you. The question is, are you giving them something to follow?
The first place is in our own mindset. Am I thinking of myself as a leader? The second would be that we need to proactively give our kids direction rather than react to what they do when they don't have direction.
Let me give you an example of a place, especially if you have small children, this makes a difference. You're at the grocery store, and you're getting the kids out, and you're going into the grocery store. Before you get out of the car, what do you expect the children to do as it relates to the grocery cart? Are they riding in it? Are they holding onto the side? What expectation are you setting for them? [00:25:18]
When you check out, is this a "we get candy in the grocery store aisle trip"? Or is this a "there will be no candy in the grocery store aisle trip"?
See, if we let them know those things up front, then they're not like a pinball trying to find the boundaries that haven't been set for them. You know, it's possible that we'll have to bring them back to what we told them they needed to do. But at least we have set a direction, and we've set something to bring them back to. And that's how we lead proactively rather than reactively.
Another place that we can lead proactively is giving our kids a five-minute warning before they need to clean up, before dinner, before grandma and grandpa comes, before they have to leave a friend's house. That is leading them well. Nobody likes to just be yanked away from what they're doing, and that includes a child who's playing.
So we give them a little bit of a heads up, and we let them know, "Hey, this is coming. It's right around the corner. I want you to be ready." [00:26:25] Those are really practical ways we can lead our kids.
Laura Dugger: We've saved our most important earthly relationship for last. So why do you recommend we embrace a real-life marriage rather than expecting a perfect marriage?
Jill Savage: Well, there is no perfection on this side of heaven. It just doesn't exist. A real-life marriage is going to roll with the realities of imperfect. It's going to allow marriage to challenge us, to soften our rough edges, to grow and mature us.
I will never forget reading years ago, Gary Thomas' book, Sacred Marriage. But the subtitle of the book was something like, What If God Gave Us Marriage Not To Make Us Happy But To Make Us Holy?
And, man, that hit me really hard when I read that. Because, really, marriage is about learning to take the self out of the relationship and to serve each other, to give grace to one another, to allow another person to do things differently than we do, and to give the space in life for that to happen. [00:27:43]
Marriage is a great maturer in our life. If we will let it, it has the ability to mature us in some huge ways. But if we won't let it mature us, it can also lead to some very painful places when we don't understand that we have this opportunity to grow together.
Laura Dugger: As we sum up all of these different examples, what role do you think grace plays as we hear this message?
Jill Savage: Well, we have to learn to be givers of grace. Here's what I want us to think about. If I don't learn to give grace, what am I giving in its place? I'm giving criticism. I'm giving judgment. I'm giving anger.
Those are very human ways of responding to what's going on around us. Or we can do things God's way, and we can actually give grace in a way that is a beautiful gift to those that we love. [00:28:47] And it's giving them the space to be human, the space to make mistakes, honestly, the space to be different.
Here's a beautiful place that you can recognize. If your spouse fills the dishwasher different than you do, can you give him grace and allow him to do it differently than you do? I know. I know. You can get three more dishes in there than he can. But is it worth it to go behind him and redo it? No, it's not. That's a moment where we have to give grace.
Here's what I've learned. And I'll tell you, some of us that have the most trouble giving grace are those of us that struggle with efficiency. I'll tell you, I'd be the first one to say I am an incredibly efficient person. So I think about the best way to do everything. I even think about the best way to drive across town. And I certainly think about the best way to fill the dishwasher. [00:29:48]
But here's what I've learned. Never sacrifice your marriage on the altar of efficiency. Never. Never sacrifice your parenting and your relationship with your children on the altar of efficiency. Don't you dare go back and remake their bed after they made it! Don't you dare reload that dishwasher after your child or your husband has filled it! Don't. Because they'll see that and they'll throw up their hands and say, "You know what, it doesn't matter. I can't make mom happy anyway." You'll redo it after I do it, so why should I even do it in the first place? No. We need to give grace for things to be done differently.
Laura Dugger: Will you now just walk us through some of the resources that you have available on these topics and let our friends know where they can connect with you online?
Jill Savage: Absolutely. The best place to connect is jillsavage.org. It is a wonderful place that I hang out. [00:30:50] I have a blog. My books are there.
Also, you can connect there to some of the marriage resources that we have and some of my book websites as well.
The No More Perfect Moms, No More Perfect Kids, No More Perfect Marriages books also have their own website at nomoreperfect.com. There are free videos. We have a lot of moms groups and small groups and churches that use that book as well as our Better Together book, which is on friendship.
And those all, the No More Perfect books and the Better Together book have free online video curriculum that moms groups and churches and small groups can use if they want to study the books together.
So jillsavage.org is a great way to start, but they can check out nomoreperfect.com as well as bettertogetherbook.org.
Laura Dugger: Thank you. I have one final question for you today. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight, and we would love to hear, Jill, what is your savvy sauce? [00:32:00]
Jill Savage: Stop comparing your insides to other women's outsides. It's a challenge that I think most of us have to be reminded of because we are often comparing the insides of our family to the outsides of other families. We're comparing the insides of ourselves to the outsides of other women, the insides of our marriage to the outsides of other marriages. And we have to stop that.
We have to be more vulnerable. That's part of the reason I'm very vulnerable because what that does is it lets others know that there are struggles out there. When we can compare insides to insides, we're not so different after all. So we have to stop comparing our insides to other women's outsides.
Laura Dugger: I just really appreciate all the wisdom that the Lord has filled you with, and you've documented it in so many ways through your websites and your books and on podcasts as well. So thank you very much for your time today, Jill. [00:33:00]
Jill Savage: Thanks for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:34:01] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:35:01] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:36:05] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jan 01, 2024
Monday Jan 01, 2024
219. Training Our Children in Biblical Financial Stewardship with Matt Bell
Proverbs 11:24 MSG "The world of the generous gets larger and larger; the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
Why do you say you relate to the prodigal son through your own financial story?
-
What are some of your favorite Scriptures that have taught you about God's opinion for how we are all invited to manage His money?
-
What are a few of your favorite ideas to teach our children as it relates to finances?
Matt Bell is a personal finance writer and national speaker. While serving as the managing editor at Sound Mind Investing, he has spoken at churches, universities, and conferences across the country. As the author of several books and video-based small-group studies on biblical money management, Matt has been featured in major print and broadcast media. He lives with his wife and their three children in the Louisville area.
Trusted: Preparing Your Kids for a Lifetime of God-Honoring Money Management
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
Parenting All Temperaments with Jenny Boyett
How to Align Your Finances with Your Values with Natalie Taylor
Ideas for Spreading Generosity with Courtney DeFeo
Financial Heart Issues with Rachel Cruze
Patreon 20 Personal Stories of God's Provision with Hope Ware
Patreon 57 Teaching our Children about Finances with Markie Castle
Related Articles:
Four Best Financial Tips I’ve Received
Ten Financial Questions to Ask Your Spouse
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription Below**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.
Happy New Year! Some of you may have already set your New Year's resolutions, and maybe finances plays a role in some of your hopes and dreams for this year. If you're also interested in training your kids to be wise stewards with their relationship with money, you are going to thoroughly enjoy this chat.
My first guest of the year is personal finance author and speaker, Matt Bell. Matt recently released a book entitled Trusted: Preparing Your Kids for a Lifetime of God-Honoring Money Management. [00:01:22]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matt.
Matt Bell: Thanks so much, Laura. I appreciate the chance to spend some time talking with you.
Laura Dugger: Will you begin by telling us a bit more about who you are and what work you get to do?
Matt Bell: That's a great way to put it. Sure, I'd be happy to. My wife Jude and I have been married for 24 years now. We have three kids. They're 19, 17, and 15. We spent most of our time in Chicago but moved to Louisville in 2012 for me to take a job with a company called Sound Mind Investing, which is a Christian company that helps people invest. It's been around over 30 years.
On the side, in addition to the day job, I write a blog, mattaboutmoney.com, and do some other writing and speaking. It's all about biblical money management. I just love the topic. It really is a privilege to be able to do this work.
Laura Dugger: I know you've said before that you personally relate to the prodigal son through your own financial story. [00:02:25] Will you share your journey with us?
Matt Bell: Yeah, absolutely. I like to say that it was my unintentional reenactment of the Bible's parable of the prodigal son that certainly led me to the Lord and led me to this work. I can smile about it now, but it was a challenging time.
I was in my mid-20s, and I inherited about $60,000 from an uncle who passed away. I had no idea he planned to leave me any money, so it was this huge surprise and this huge gift.
I had great intentions with the money. I thought, "Wow, this is such a unique opportunity. I really want to use the money well." I thought if I could do anything, I would create my dream job, something I would love to do all of my days.
I took a little inventory of the things I most love to do. I love to golf, and I love to travel, so I created a newsletter for golfers who take golf vacations. For a time, it really was a dream come true. I got to play Pebble Beach and some just great courses in this country and some other countries. I was really having the time of my life. [00:03:25]
The problem was I wasn't attracting very many paid subscribers. It didn't occur to me as a big problem because I had this huge pile of money that I thought would last forever, but it certainly didn't last forever.
A couple of years after inheriting the money, I found myself deeply in debt. I was $20,000 in debt. I took this gift of $60,000 and turned it into negative $20,000 in two years' time because I was just so acclimated to that great life I was living and so blind to what was happening with the money. So that was a very humbling wake-up call to realize what a mess I'd made of that opportunity.
I ended up moving home at the encouragement of my parents for about six months, which I'll always be grateful to them. That was a huge safety net they provided to me. But it was also just really discouraging and literally depressing.
I remember looking forward to the nighttime when I could just sleep and dreading when the sun would come up in the morning and I had to face up to what I had done for another long day.
But it turned out to be this really great turning point. [00:04:26] I mean, during that difficult time, a good friend from college who had become a Christian after I left school, he reached out and wanted to get together and talk to me about matters of faith, which I was open to listening to because I trusted my friend and I was intrigued with what he had to say. And that set me on a course of starting to investigate the claims of Christ and starting to go to church and read the Bible.
After about 11 months after moving home, I finally accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, which would have been plenty to come out of that experience. That would have been quite enough.
But the other thing is that it woke me up to my need to learn about money. After becoming a Christian, I was amazed to discover how much the Bible says on this topic. So the first church I went to turned out to have this stewardship ministry, which I had never even heard about such a thing, but I loved serving there and just was a sponge, just drinking up everything I could learn about what the Bible teaches about money. That turned into my life's work. [00:05:27]
So it was a difficult time, challenging time, but I'm really, in the end, grateful. It was really a wonderful turning point.
Laura Dugger: Something that stands out is the Lord's kindness in that because when you were creating your dream job, part of it involved blogging and writing. And that is part of what you get to do today.
Matt Bell: Yeah, that's very true. I love taking the background in writing and all that and turning it into something a little more productive than golf. Golf is not a bad thing, but to use it this way to encourage people to see what God's Word has to say on this topic and to start to shape their finances around His Word, I love doing this.
Laura Dugger: I love how you shared that this is the experience that set you on a path to then apply biblical principles to all of your life, but especially to finances. Matt, what are some of your favorite scriptures that have taught you about God's opinion for how we're all invited to manage His money? [00:06:34]
Matt Bell: Yeah, that's really well said. The first one that comes to mind was the first set of verses that I came across that really, to me, depicted so clearly what our relationship with God and money is to be. And that's in the Parable of the Talents, Matthew 25:14-30, where Jesus talks about a man going on a journey and entrusting three servants with his resources.
The man there represents God, the servants represent us. And so God entrusts us with some of His resources to be used for His purposes and according to His principles.
I remember reading on into that story, and it says that at a certain point the master returned, and he took account of what his servants had done with what he had entrusted to them. And I remember lingering over those words for quite a while, and I realized, you know, we're accountable. We're accountable to God for how we use the resources that He generously entrusts to us.
Now, that's not a heavy burden. [00:07:34] That's something that we shouldn't be scared of or intimidated by, but we should be mindful of that. And just really grateful for the resources that He entrusts to us and the fact that He does trust us.
He gives us so much guidance in His word about how we're to manage these resources for good purposes. So that was really a great starting point for me was the parable of the talents. Then as I've gone further in my writing and speaking and thinking about this whole topic, I've come to the realization that I think people understand... they will understand the purpose of money best when they understand the purpose of their life. Because the purpose of money is best seen as a way to express the purpose of our life.
We read in God's word about what's most important. Jesus, when He was asked what's most important, He said to love God and to love people. So those are the two starting points, the two first big-picture purposes of our lives and the two first big-picture purposes of money. [00:08:34]
And then in Ephesians 2:10 it says that God has prepared good works for us to do. And so everybody's been given certain gifts and talents and passions with which we're to make a difference with the lives we've been given. So I see those as really the three overarching purposes of our lives, love God, love people, and use our lives to make a difference in this world to honor God. And if we can shape our use of money around those three purposes, that's a great overarching orientation of money.
Laura Dugger: And to take that even further, it seems that you're passionate about taking that and passing it along to the next generation, which is also very biblical. In this book, your recent one entitled Trusted, you guide parents on ways that they can prepare their kids for a lifetime of God-honoring money management. So I'd love to know why you believe it's so important to train our children to be wise financial stewards.
Matt Bell: There are two main reasons. [00:09:34] One is that there's so much at stake here. I mean, it isn't that if we don't teach our kids about money, they won't learn. They will learn. But the consumer culture will be their teacher.
Social media has really amplified the messages of the consumer culture. You know, it used to be when I started in this work, I was concerned about young people becoming maybe too materialistic and using money, you know, spending too much time shopping, too much time spending money, things like that.
But today there's credible research out there that links some use of social media, in particular, with things like anxiety and depression and even self-harm. And so the stakes have really gotten larger. That as the consumer culture's messages get spread out into the world and amplified, it's more than just about whether we're going to use money well or not. It's really something much deeper, much more at a heart level.
So there's a lot at stake here in helping kids know who they are in Christ, if they've placed their faith in Christ, and to live from that perspective. [00:10:36]
The second motivating reason to have written this book is because there's so much potential here. You know, there's so much at stake here. That's kind of the negative kind of warning side of this whole conversation. But then there's the great, incredible potential.
If we can get young people on a good, God-honoring path with money early in life, it's incredible how much that will benefit that young person's life. It'll deepen their relationship with Christ. It'll benefit greatly their relationship with their future spouse. It'll free them to make the difference with their lives that God intended for them to make. It's just there's so much incredible potential in getting kids on a good path with money early.
Laura Dugger: And you even point out that it's not a linear effect that our finances have on our lives, but it's really an exponential effect.
Matt Bell: That's right. Usually, when people think about compounding, or like you're saying, exponential returns, they think about investing. And for sure, compounding is a hugely powerful concept when it comes to investing money. [00:11:39]
But I like to think about how it applies to all areas of finances. So if a young person really starts to get a vision around generosity, their heart is just oriented around God and serving God and loving others, and they develop some biblical practices around generosity early in life, how God could compound that young person's impact over their lifetime is incredible.
And not just in the tangible investments they make in God-honoring causes and addressing some of the great needs of the world, but in their own life, infusing their own life with a great sense of meaning and purpose and joy as they express this generous heart that God has given them.
You think about a young person who kind of gets their relationship right with God and money early in life and how that will impact their future marriage. I mean, money is a common source of stress and struggle in marriages. And so for a young person to get those relationships with money and with God sorted out early in life has so much potential to help in those future relationships that are so important. [00:12:39]
So it's just really exciting to think about how God could multiply the effect of a young person getting on a good path with money early in life.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi Family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible.
They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, Welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.
I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. [00:13:46] Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.
Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for "Sam Leman Eureka". You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: Well, what are a few of your favorite tangible ideas to teach our children as it relates to finances?
Matt Bell: I mean, it really does start with identity. I know it sounds kind of abstract, like, all right, I want to get down to the nitty-gritty of using money. But it really starts with identity. And so I want our kids to understand that they are children of God. 1 John 3:1, "For what manner of love is this that God should call us His children." And yet that is who we are.
So I want our kids to understand that their value, their worth, is not based on the brands of clothing that they wear. It's not based on where we can afford to take them on vacation. [00:14:47] It is secure in their relationship with Christ. They are fully valued, fully loved, just as they are. That's really an essential starting place that relates to money and so many other aspects of life.
But then getting kids started with something simple. A really young kid with a three-slotted piggy bank, or three envelopes, or three mason jars, where they're learning to give the first portion, learning to save the second portion, and then spending.
That framework of give, then save, then invest, then spend, and avoid the bondage of debt, as the Bible describes it, that's a really simple framework, and yet it's very rare that I find people practicing it, and it's so helpful. So to get kids on that path early with those priorities.
And by the way, as they learn to prioritize money, as they learn to allocate every dollar that comes into their life, that's a beginner's budget. The culture, again, is not thrilled about the idea of using a budget, and yet we're managers of God's resources, so we want to be intentional in the use of that money, and that whole practice of giving some, saving some, and then spending, that's a beginner's budget. [00:15:53]
So kids can start to learn at a remarkably early age. I mean, kids about as young as around two can start to understand some kind of basic concepts around money. And so we would be wise, as parents, to start to be intentional about cultivating good habits of work around the household, a diligent work ethic, a God-honoring work ethic, learn to prioritize the uses of money, learn to spend well. There's a lot to it, so we can just kind of weave it into the rhythms of daily life. Those are some starting points of getting kids going with money in a good direction.
Laura Dugger: And I'd love to dive a little bit further into each of those, because really that's what we can do with money, give, save, and spend, and I guess part of that may include investing. But let's just go through each. So when we're training our children to give, I loved that section in your book where you elaborated on generosity. I had never heard The Message translation that you put in about Proverbs 11:24 that says, "The world of the generous gets larger and larger; the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller." [00:17:02]
Matt Bell: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: Is there anything else you would want to share about that impact of training our children on giving?
Matt Bell: Sure. Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean, unfortunately, in this day and age, you've got the prosperity gospel kind of twisting that into a give-to-get sort of message, which is not at all what the Bible teaches. But the Bible does teach that our worlds do expand.
I mean, we have greater impact, and we have greater joy when we live the generous lives that we were designed to live. Kids get that more easily than an adult who maybe hasn't heard that message throughout their life.
I heard that John Rockefeller one time, one of the wealthiest men that ever lived, he once apparently said that, I never could have tithed on my first million dollars if I hadn't tithed on my first salary, which was $1.50 a week. And I get that. I get the principle. So if you get a kid trained early that, yes, part of it is an act of obedience.
We look at the Old Testament and Leviticus where the law is taught and the tithe is introduced. [00:18:04] But then we get into the New Testament, and you see more the joy side of generosity. And there's so much secular research out there that has found that the most generous people are the happiest people.
Again, kids get that early. I think kids are naturally generous. They enjoy giving. They enjoy sharing. And so to glom onto that and to feed that and to encourage that is just a really, really good thing.
You know, we help kids by modeling it. Hopefully we don't model the behavior where giving is kind of checking the box. I met with some young adult men, some 20-something men when I was writing the book, and all of them were raised in Christian homes, all of them saw their parents giving to the church, none of them understood why. One of them even said it seemed like his parents were just checking a box.
We don't want that. We want to express the joy of generosity, the privilege of generosity. We want to treat generosity as an act of worship. And so for our kids to see that, that'll be a healthy part of their early training in generosity. [00:19:04]
But then, yes, get them in the practice of it. You know, it would be better if we didn't just give them the money to give to the church or to other ministries that God puts on our hearts or their hearts. It would be good if it's money that they earned and so it's real for them, that they're choosing to take a real portion of money that's really theirs and giving that. That'll be much more tangible and much more helpful for them.
It's one of the most beneficial things we can do for our kids is to set them up for a life of generosity because that's what God designed them to live. That'll be the most joyful, meaningful life that they can live.
Laura Dugger: And if anybody's sharing this episode with their children as a way to instruct them, will you share a story that illustrates what one of your mentors refers to as God's math?
Matt Bell: Absolutely. So there's some friends of mine in Texas and they have two daughters. They were teaching their daughters from a very young age about the priorities that we've talked about here in this conversation already of giving and then saving and then spending. [00:20:04] So they were very much in the habit of doing that but they were also very much wanting a trampoline.
And their parents said, "Great, so we'll give you some extra chores. You can save up your money for this trampoline." And so they did. They worked really hard. They saved a lot of money. They almost had enough for the trampoline.
But one weekend at church, they heard a missionary speak and their hearts were just captivated by his stories of the people that he was serving and the needs that he was meeting, and they wanted to be a part of it. And they ended up giving most of the money they had saved for the trampoline to this missionary to further his work.
One of the cool things, we parents, we can kind of swoop in and save the day in ways that are not very helpful with our kids. We can do that when they spend too much money. We can give them more money to spend. But we can also do that sometimes with generosity where we might be tempted to say, "Oh, honey, that's so sweet that you want to give all that money you had saved, but you worked so hard for it. Why don't you just let me handle that need and you keep using that money for the purpose you intended it for?" [00:21:06]
But the parents, Leo and Natalie, did not do that, thankfully. They let their kids give generously toward this missionary. And wouldn't you know it, not long after that, their aunt got in touch. Their aunt knew that they had been saving for a trampoline, did not know that they had given away a lot of the money that they had saved for the trampoline.
She was calling to say that where she worked, there was a trampoline on deep discount, and with her employee discount, they could get it for even less money. They ended up having enough money left over to buy that trampoline.
And as the dad, Leo, said to me, he said, "You know, that's just an example of God's generosity. What a great thing to happen so young in these children's lives to see that in action.
Again, we don't give in order to get. They just unexpectedly receive this incredible blessing from God to be able to give that generously and still have the money because of these discounts that the aunt was able to provide to purchase the trampoline. [00:22:10]
And so my longtime mentor, Dick Towner, he likes to talk about God's math. It's just the experiences like that that just make no sense in our logical minds, but God orchestrates things sometimes in such an incredible way.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much. That does illustrate the giving portion. As we move to consider the saving portion, we all hear that it is important to save. But you share a really critical reason why it's important and why it's important to teach our children. So when we cultivate that habit of saving money, what is the character trait that we're developing in our children?
Matt Bell: Right. It's a crucially important one. It's the character trait of delayed gratification, which is really a lost art in our world. But that's what saving is, basically. We're putting aside some money, we're delaying our need or our desire for something right now in order to have money for something later on.
So some of your listeners may be familiar with this, what's come to be known as the Great Marshmallow Experiment. [00:23:13] It was this experiment done at Stanford University back in the 1960s where a researcher brought 4-year-olds into a room one at a time and gave them their choice of treats, including a marshmallow, and told them that they could eat one marshmallow right now, no questions asked, no problem, or if they could wait, the researcher had to go run an errand, they were told, and if they could wait until that researcher came back, then they could have two.
Now, some of the kids couldn't wait at all. Before the researcher was even out of the room, they had gobbled up that treat. But about 30% of the kids could wait what turned out to be about 20 minutes, a long time for a 4-year-old to wait, in order to get that better reward.
One of the really interesting things about this study is they stayed in touch with these kids. So when they got into high school, they got back in touch with the kids, they talked with their teachers, their counselors, their parents, they evaluated them on a variety of traits, and they found that these kids were really different than the kids that couldn't wait. [00:24:11]
They were better able to wait for other things, they were making better decisions, they were better at problem-solving, better at maintaining friendships, relationships. And these kids scored, on average, 200 points higher on the SAT scores than the kids that couldn't wait.
Then they followed these kids into adulthood, early adulthood, and they continued to find some remarkable differences between the kids who could wait and the kids who couldn't wait. Better health practices, again, better able to maintain relationships, just a host of other benefits.
So we can think, oh, it's pretty cute to encourage little Johnny to put a couple of coins out of every dollar into the savings slot of the piggy bank or into the envelope, but we're teaching our kids something very, very important, and that is this character trait of delayed gratification.
Laura Dugger: So that's giving and saving, but also we want to teach our children how to spend their money and hopefully spend it wisely, or I guess also to learn those financial mistakes when the stakes are lower. [00:25:14] But you share kind of a surprising definition of what it means to consume. So can you share both the definition of consume and how we can train our children to spend wisely?
Matt Bell: Yeah. That's one of the really... So back to the whole idea of identity, our culture calls us consumers. And if you look at the definition, I think you'd be a little offended. I mean, we hear the term so often that we don't even really give it a second thought. But if you look it up, it means to waste, to squander these ways of using money that are not at all what it would be to be a steward of God's resources as the Bible teaches us that we are.
We're managers of God's resources. We're not in life in order to squander and to use up and to waste all that God has entrusted to us. We're to manage those resources well. And there are so many ways we can teach our kids to spend money well.
I mean, one of the ways is by being intentional, by living within their means. That might sound kind of silly. If your kid has a dollar-a-week allowance, like, what do you mean, spend within their means? [00:26:16] That's such a small amount of money, but seriously, if they give some, if they save some, and then there's a framework that a lot of adults use of 10-10-80. Give 10%, save 10%, and then spend 80%, but with kids, I like it to be something more like 10-50-40. Save a large amount because kids can afford to save a large amount and then spend 40.
But even 40% or 80% of a dollar, that's not much money, but yet we can help our kids learn to live within their means at a very young age by, if they go to the store with us and they want to buy some stickers and they spend their entire spending portion for the week and then they want to buy something else, we would do them the greatest favor by lovingly, warmly, kindly saying, No, I'm sorry, but you've got to wait until next week when you have more to be able to spend. So that's one really important early lesson.
But then there are so many aspects of spending well. We can show our kids how we compare us in shop, how we compare prices in the store, we're at the grocery store. And they've made it easy for us now. [00:27:16] Now we can see the cost per count or the cost per ounce, and so we can show our kids.
So I think a lot of teaching kids about money in these really practical ways is just including them in the conversation as we're out in the real world making real decisions with real money. Just help our kids see. Sometimes we just do these things.
It's faster maybe, it's easier if we can just scoot on and get it done. But if we can fold them into the conversation and show them what we're doing, we're going to teach them some really good habits around money.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any other practical tips for how we can implement these ideals into parenting?
Matt Bell: Sure. I mean, there's one that I just love that I learned from a woman named Mary Hunt who has written quite a few books about money. She talks about this idea that I just think is brilliant. We want to make money real for kids. We don't want it to be too abstract for them.
So the idea is that oftentimes kids will have some spending money, but if we can give them more responsibility over time as they get older for more and more spending categories, that would be a good thing. [00:28:20]
For example, we can give them responsibility for their clothing budget, probably as young as age 8 or 9. So if we're budgeting our household budget of $25 per kid per month for clothing, we can start to... this is what we've done. We've given our kids that money in cash, they put it in an envelope for clothing, they take it with them to the store, and now they're making real decisions.
I mean, it used to be that we would shop with them and they would still be making their own decisions about what they wanted, and they kind of knew big picture what the limit was, but it's much more real, it's much more tangible if they have the actual money in hand and now they're having to make some real trade-offs. Is it going to be one pair of designer jeans or two pair of not-so-designer jeans? And we're going to have to live within our means because I'm looking in the envelope and there's only what there is in there and no more.
So if we can give our kids more and more real responsibility for these real spending categories over time, that'll really, really benefit them a lot. [00:29:19]
Laura Dugger: There is an exciting project taking place behind the scenes right now, and I would love to invite you to participate. I will give you more details as I'm able, but for now, here's my request. Will you email me your personal story of a specific way God has clearly shown up in your life?
Big or small, I want to hear an account of the way He made Himself known to you and maybe received credit for an answered prayer, or a way He worked out a situation in a miraculous way, or how He displayed His power in your life. There's no limit to the type of story to submit, as long as it's true. So please email me your story at this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. I can't wait to read your story. Thanks for sharing.
Do you also have any examples from your parenting that have really stuck with your kids over the years?
Matt Bell: Yeah. I mean, there's so many to draw from. [00:30:20] I mean, I kind of see our household as this living laboratory. And I don't think I've damaged the kids too badly by seeing it that way. But it's just really opened my eyes to the fact that kids can learn more about money at a younger age than we might have assumed.
And we should be open about teaching both the really kind of good lessons, happy lessons that are fun to learn, like generosity, but also some lessons that are a little tougher to learn and tougher for us parents to teach. And that really has to do with the consequences of bad choices or the consequences of mistakes or accidents. That's, again, the real world. We want our kids living in the real world.
I remember a time when one of our kids was pretty young and in the kitchen swinging a large cardboard tube around the kitchen, and we asked him to stop more than once, and he did not stop. He ended up knocking a glass of water over onto a computer, and it led to a very expensive repair for this computer.
Now, we could have just swooped in and saved the day and said, "that's not a great thing to do" and had a strong talk with him but covered the cost ourselves. [00:31:27] But we did not do that. We had him cover, I think it was about half the cost.
I mean, basically, we were giving our kids a small allowance at the time, and that ended his allowance a year earlier than it would have ended otherwise, and it pretty much drained his savings account at that time to be responsible and take responsibility for that mistake.
He didn't try to do it. He didn't intend to do it. But in the real world, things like that happen, and so we wanted our kids to learn about the consequences. So, you know, there was grace. We certainly shared in the cost of it and all of that, but we felt like it was important for him to take some responsibility for it as well.
Laura Dugger: So you mentioned the word grace. I have to share that as I was reading one of your sections, you were just elaborating on exactly what compounding interest is. And when I really stopped to consider it, when it's earning interest on interest, to me, that is an expression of grace. Even as we're training our young children about compounding interest, how can we verbalize and explain this to them? [00:32:37]
Matt Bell: Yeah, it's incredible. Again, I like applying it to all areas of money, from generosity to spending well to just having a real grateful attitude about money. There's so many ways, so many really beneficial things that can compound in incredible ways. But if we take it down to the most common example of investing money, $100 a month, if you stuffed that under your mattress every month and you just did that for 50 years, you'd end up with $60,000. That's $100 a month turning into $200, turning into $300. It's growing in this kind of straight-line, linear fashion.
But if you invested that money, did something more productive with that money, and if you were able to invest it in the way that got the U.S. stock market's average annual return of about 10%, in 50 years, you would have invested that $60,000, but it would have turned into something like $1.7 million. Now, that's incredible.
Because it's the idea that if you get a return on money... if you invest $100 and you get a 10% return, then the next year you've got $110. But if you do that another year after that, you don't just have another $10, you have another $11, because not only did the original 100 earn 10%, but now the return you got last year, that dollar earned 10% as well. [00:33:56] It sounds like a little thing in a short amount of time, but over a long period of time, it's an incredible thing. That's one of the reasons.
In a really tangible, nitty-gritty, just purely financial sort of way, I like to encourage parents to teach their kids about investing at a young age, because the Bible teaches us that we have a responsibility to provide for our families. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, "Whoever does not provide for his relatives, and especially his immediate family, has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever." That's during the years that we're working, and in our later years, when maybe for health reasons, or other reasons, maybe we're not going to be working for pay anymore, we need to have some money in reserve that we've been investing over the long period to provide for our families in the long haul.
One of the examples I use in the book, and some of these numbers are... they're not cast in stone, it's just an example. But if a kid could have $2,000 or $3,000 saved up by the time they're 16 to 18, if they never added another penny to that money, but they invested it aggressively as they can because they have time, then by the time they're 70, which will be a pretty typical retirement age by that point, they could have well over a million dollars. [00:35:08]
And that isn't about getting wealthy for the sake of getting wealthy, that's about being a good steward, and having money saved up for providing for your family in your later years. So kids have this tremendous opportunity. I really encourage people to encourage their kids and teach their kids how to take advantage of that opportunity starting at a very young age.
Laura Dugger: It's so motivating to teach them when you lay it out that way and you see how well this will not only benefit them but others that they can bless with it as well. But something else that significantly impacts our children is our marriage. So what have you learned about the impact financial management has on the marriage?
Matt Bell: There's so much. I mean, it's a pretty common issue between husbands and wives, and that is one of the really exciting things about getting a young child on a good path with money early because you start to envision the quality and the joy of their future marriage. [00:36:07]
So the research I've read says that if one spouse thinks that their spouse handles money foolishly, that not only decreases marital satisfaction, that's intuitive, but it actually significantly increases the chances of divorce.
So using a budget, as nitty-gritty as that tool sounds like, it can have a huge benefit on a person's marriage because now we've got a tool that we're using to be proactive and intentional about managing money well. So there are a lot of things.
You know, this whole generosity piece, sometimes a man and woman come together in their 20s or 30s, and they've got some different habits and practices around generosity, and they have disagreements about that. So it's just easier if a kid gets on this good path early in life and orients not only their practices around money, but their perspectives about money in a biblical sort of way.
Laura Dugger: I love it. This is a money management and parenting tool about being wise stewards and teaching our children how to do that. [00:37:06] But there's so much more where you get to the heart issues and talk about other topics that we may not connect to money at first glance, but they were really helpful.
And one of them I'm thinking of, on page 49, you write, "I'm convinced that one of the greatest ways we can express love to our kids is to set a good example in the use of technology." So will you elaborate on that, Matt?
Matt Bell: Yeah, for sure. Social media has really become a significant force in our culture. I don't think social media is inherently bad, but I think that many ways that it gets used can be very damaging to a person, to their sense of self, to their sense of satisfaction, to their joy.
And so we want to teach our kids about the proper use of social media. We want to set some healthy boundaries. In the book, I talk about these three roles that encourage parents to embrace. The role of the gatekeeper is one of them, then the teacher, and then the role model. [00:38:06]
And the gatekeeper for kids around this topic would be to decide between spouses, when will we allow, will we allow, and if so, when will we allow the use of social media? When will we allow the use of screens? And to set up some rules in the household about the use of screens.
In our household, when each of our kids has gotten a device, a phone, it's come with a three-page contract. And people can download that off my website, and they can customize it to meet their needs as well. I looked at a lot of different contracts that I've seen, and we shaped it together, my wife and I, to create a document that we felt good about.
But we want our kids to be intentional in their use of screens. It may not come to them naturally, so that's where some of the rules and regs get set up.
I like the idea of screen-free zones in the household. So the dining room is a screen-free zone, bathrooms are screen-free zones. We don't allow computers or TVs to be kept in a room overnight. When people are using screens, the screen needs to be visible to other people so that there's accountability and transparency in those sorts of things. [00:39:16]
There's a great documentary out there called The Social Dilemma that we watched with our kids. I think when a kid is about age 12 or so, you could watch this documentary with your kids. And you hear from some of these people who've worked for social media platforms talking about some of the dangers and some of the decisions they've made in their own families about setting up some rules and regs around screen time and social media use. Our kids saw that, and we already have rules and regs, and yet they created some new self-imposed rules and regs, which was pretty interesting coming out of that movie.
As you were talking about, really your question was about being a good role model, you know, sometimes we can talk a mean game and we can set up the rules, but then our kids are watching, and they're paying attention to what we're doing. Are we spending too much time on screens? Do we have some rules that we're following of when are screens off for the night, and are we building in some intentional family time that's just about conversations and it's not about a screen? That would be a healthy thing to model for our kids. [00:40:17]
Laura Dugger: Well, and one other unique angle that you take is talking about why it's important to learn about our own temperament and also our children's temperaments when it comes to handling money. Can you elaborate on that as well?
Matt Bell: Sure. Temperament's a fascinating thing. I mean, when you figure out your temperament, it's as if somebody's been following you around all your life and they've described you. It's amazing. And everybody has it. It's God-given. We're wired up a certain way.
There are different temperament ways of analyzing temperaments out there, but the most basic one divides up temperaments into four different classifications. So the choleric, sanguine, phlegmatic, and melancholy, and they all come with certain natural money management strengths and some natural money management weaknesses.
So for us to learn our own temperament, and people have a primary and a secondary that sometimes shows up in different circumstances, but it's just a really helpful, powerful thing because it can start to lessen some of the arguments that we might have with our spouse around money now that we've got some empathy to see where they're coming from and vice versa. [00:41:30] And we can start to identify this in our kids. When they're arguably a teen or an early teenager, we can have them go through.
There's a list of characteristics on my website people can download, and they can check off which ones they relate to, and the one with the most checkmarks will be their primary, and the one with the second most checkmarks will be their secondary. And we can talk about it.
There's some ideas in the book about how does somebody with this temperament tend to come at money? You know, choleric tends to be kind of the hard-charging, type A sort of person. And they, from a marriage standpoint, can kind of run ahead of a spouse and make decisions on their own. And so they need to caution themselves about that.
By the same token, they're great at accomplishing goals. If you're trying to get out of debt, set a choleric loose with that goal because they're really good at accomplishing goals. But again, each temperament has certain strengths and certain weaknesses.
The melancholy, for example, tends to take to the use of a budget much more naturally than other temperaments. Certainly the sanguine. The sanguine is more the life-of-the-party, outgoing sort of person. [00:42:31] They've got no time for budgeting, but they can use the envelope system, the biggest-picture sort of approach to using a budget.
So it's just a really helpful set of insights that comes from learning your temperament and helping our kids understand how God has naturally wired them up.
Laura Dugger: And just to go into a few more of those, so the sanguine, I loved, you quoted Tim LaHaye that says, "I've never met a sanguine accountant."
Matt Bell: Right, exactly. We're thankful for the temperament types that are drawn to accounting and to some of these more technical professions. But that's right. Again, these are not good or bad. These are just how God has wired us up. And so to gain some insight into that.
I tend to make decisions kind of quickly. And my wife tends to, if we go out to eat to a restaurant, she likes to see her options. I tend to be a little bit more boring. I'll see the first thing I'm interested in, and I'm ready to move on and make that decision.
But we can gain empathy for each other, and we can gain a much greater sense of teamwork by understanding this is how God has gifted this person, how God has wired them up in this wonderful way, and appreciate the strengths that come with that temperament, and then by the same token, work around some of the weaknesses. [00:43:44]
So, as I said, the sanguine is not going to love the budget, but the sanguine should be involved with the budgeting process with their non-sanguine spouse. God tends to bring people with different temperaments together, thankfully.
And so it's just a wonderful insight and gives you some new structure to be able to work together on this crazy thing called money management.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I identify with the sanguine temperament myself. That's why it's easy to poke fun at it. But also a tip for me, I now love and embrace our budget because it ultimately leads to more freedom.
Matt Bell: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: And I think it's been really helpful to have some categories that are saved to spend so that you have that big picture to look forward to. But we also didn't cover phlegmatic. There were just a few points I'd love to draw out where you write, "If you're a phlegmatic, you may benefit from working with an investment advisor who will drive decisions." I thought that was really practical. [00:44:44]
Matt Bell: Yeah. Phlegmatics are really... they're kind of a steady-as-you-go sort of person. You know, great. They're going to show up on time at work and they're going to be there for you and that sort of thing. And they're really good researchers when it comes to some sort of financial decision. They're great at researching the decision, but they're kind of slow at pulling the trigger. So, right.
So we can learn from that and we can surround ourselves with some structure that'll help us in areas where we might need a little bit of help. And so, as you said, maybe working with a financial advisor who can steer some decisions and drive some decisions. That would be the better part of wisdom to say, "Hey, I'm just going to be slow at this. I might not ever get to it. So I'd rather have somebody in my life that is going to get to this for me."
Laura Dugger: And with each of those temperaments, you kind of link different Bible verses as well. I'll just read the one for the phlegmatic from Ecclesiastes 11:4. And you have it in the translation TLB where it says, "If you wait for perfect conditions, you will never get anything done."[00:45:45]
Matt Bell: It's so true. It's great to draw encouragement from scripture and to love the idea of memorizing scripture, love the idea of meditating on God's word. And so if each temperament comes with certain inherent strengths and weaknesses, and if we can use scripture to be an encouragement to maybe overcome some of these inherent weaknesses, that's the best possible motivation.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I think this whole conversation is a great way to help disciple our children, even if we want to listen alongside them if we're driving together. I'll link to a few other episodes we've done, some temperament episodes, even temperaments in parenting that might pair nicely with this topic.
But Matt, also, if anybody wants to follow you or learn more from you after this chat, where would you like to direct them?
Matt Bell: Sure. There's a few different places. I would suggest my own website, which is mattaboutmoney.com. There's a lot of free resources there and a lot of articles there that'll be hopefully an encouragement and a help to people. [00:46:44]
My day job is Sound Mind Investing. There's a lot of free resources and articles there, more specifically about investing. It's an overtly Christian organization that teaches biblical principles and helps people in some really practical ways around investing.
And then, I mean, the new book. I feel like it was a gift from God that this opportunity to write this book came along and to partner with Focus on the Family. And writing it was a gift as well. So you can find the book on Amazon. You can find it on christianbook.com and other sites where you might buy books. But the book is called Trusted: Preparing Your Kids for a Lifetime of God-Honoring Money Management.
But what I did with the book is I designed it so that the first part of each really practical chapter is written to parents because I think we can all continue to learn about money. And so it's written for parents to learn how to apply these biblical principles to their own lives. And then the next half of each of those really practical chapters is filled with ideas of how to bring these principles and these ideas to our kids.[00:47:43]
Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to all of this in the episode's show notes for today. And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so it's my final question for you today, Matt. What is your savvy sauce?
Matt Bell: I love that question. I would say that, you know, when people think about, oh, here's this idea about now I need to teach my kids about money, it feels like one more thing. It feels like... you know, no parent has extra margin, extra time on their hands.
And so the savvy sauce that I would suggest is to just weave your kids into the conversation about money through the rhythms of natural daily life. Because we're all making so many financial decisions. We don't even realize probably until we stop and really think about it. We make so many financial decisions every day. And if we can just bring our kids into the conversation.
So I might be updating our online budget. And if one of our kids is nearby, I'll just bring them in and say, hey, you know, I'm checking to see how we're doing on our grocery spending this month. [00:48:46] If we're a little bit over, we'll make it up next month and that sort of thing.
Or if we're at the grocery store, we're teaching our kids, you know, we're using a list or modeling that for them. And then we're being intentional about getting the best deals for the food that is healthy and good for our family. If we're driving in the car, we can talk about I recently got an oil change and tires rotate in the car. We talk about, hey, we're stewarding God's resources. This car is a gift from God to take care of it. I want you to know that we take it into the shop on a regular basis to keep it in good shape. And part of that is oil change and tire rotation. And here's about what that costs.
So, you know, the big picture, the short answer to your question is just start to talk to your kids about practical things you're doing with money and you'll be amazed at how much you can teach them just in the rhythms of everyday life.
Laura Dugger: Well, Matt, I very much enjoyed your book and we've begun implementing some of these principles within our own home.
Matt Bell: Awesome.
Laura Dugger: So I want to personally thank you for investing in our family and also just say thank you for being my guest. [00:49:52]
Matt Bell: Thank you so much, Laura. I appreciate what you do. I appreciate the chance to talk with you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:50:57] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:51:56] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:52:59] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Dec 11, 2023
Monday Dec 11, 2023
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
218. Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Micah 6:8 (NIV) "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
Will you share a few practical sexual education tips with us?
-
What are the best ways spouses can practice communicating well about sex and what are the potential benefits?
-
How does "desire tend to work differently for men and women"?
Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness. Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb, and one daughter-in-law.
Secrets of Sex and Marriage Website
Building Intimate Marriages Website
Previous Episodes with Dr. Mike:
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Donate to Savvy Sauce Charities here!
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Laura Dugger: Hey friends! This is our final episode of 2023 and I want to share some exciting news with you. It has been a dream to launch a non-profit to resource people so that they're inspired to grow in intimacy with God and others. Well, this dream officially became a new non-profit this year called Savvy Sauce Charities.
Beginning January 1st, The Savvy Sauce podcast will now be under the umbrella of Savvy Sauce Charities. And here are just a few changes to explain what that means.
First, we're no longer going to have a Patreon option. If you want to support the podcast and all the work that we're doing at Savvy Sauce Charities, I encourage you to still visit our website, thesavvysauce.com, and under the "More" drop-down tab, you're going to find the option to donate. It lists our official name and tax ID number so that you can make a donation that is now tax deductible. We are so grateful for your contribution.
And if this podcast has ever added any value to your life, I hope you consider sharing your finances with us so that we can continue sharing our resources with you. Your donations are now tax deductible and our team is so grateful for your consideration and contribution. So I look forward to meeting you back here on January 1st and until then, I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas.
[00:01:36] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:01:53] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Dr. Michael Sytsma is my returning guest today. His episodes are some of our most downloaded because he approaches the topic of sexual intimacy and marriage with such care, gentleness, and knowledge and today is no exception.
He recently co-authored the book, Secrets of Sex and Marriage, with Shaunti Feldhahn and now he's going to provide some insight into their research and findings from this beneficial resource. [00:02:54]
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Mike.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, thank you. It's such an honor to be with you. This is always so much fun.
Laura Dugger: I just want to begin by saying you are an excellent author. Why did you strive for much of your career to not do this type of work in book form?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think there are a lot of reasons for that, Laura. Part of it is it's a lot of work to write this way. I'm a slow writer too. Shaunti was great in keeping me focused and languaging a lot of it. We spent hours and hours and hours with me talking through the principles and then her distilling them and writing them. So much time.
The other thing is there's some great stuff out there. You know, Cliff and Joyce Penner's book on Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex, I just think is... I told them once, yeah, nobody can do better than that. Why would I even try? There's such good stuff out there. [00:03:52]
And then I think it took me listening to tens of thousands of hours of stories before I felt like I had the credibility to say something that wasn't already out there. So just a number of reasons. But it's been an amazing project.
Laura Dugger: And what would you say was the most enjoyable part of this project for you?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, you know me, I'm a little bit of an academic nerd at times. Just the research, you know, to dig into the numbers and to see what people are saying that they don't know they're saying. We had 502 matched pair samples. So 502 couples where both the husband and wife answer anonymously, but we're able to pair them up to know who's married to who.
So I can ask, how often do you think your wife wants to have sex? And then I can ask the wife, how often do you actually want to have sex? And we can then compare to see how far apart they are. We're asking that of the wives, too: What do you think of your husband? [00:04:54]
And to see just how radically different couples are at times and how they misperceive each other, that's fascinating. And then the surprises. I've always taught that couples that have more kids have less frequent sex. And that is way not what the data told us. I even ran it three times. I went all the way back to the beginning and redid all of the calculations because I kept looking at it going, "This is wrong. This is not true."
But it was so dramatic to see the couples that are three or more kids, which I know you don't know anybody like that, you know, their frequency versus the couples that have no kids, a huge number of sexist couples in that category.
And when you come across those kind of surprises, that's the cool part of doing this type of work, I think, to be able to say, well, maybe things aren't what we've been saying. Maybe things aren't what we thought they were.
Laura Dugger: And I love that you are just a lifelong learner and an excellent teacher. [00:05:54] I know that there's a lot that we can cover when it comes to sexual education. But I think it would be helpful to have you share a few of the actionable ideas that you mentioned throughout your book. So will you just share a few of those practical tips with us now?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think the first one that comes to mind, Laura, is a big picture issue that the last couple of years I've been spending more and more time on just seeing the value of it. You know, great marriage, great sex happens not from our skills and our technique, but happens from our heart. And what kind of a heart that we have toward ourself, toward our spouse, toward our marriage.
I keep spending more and more time talking about the value of seduction. My assertion is that in dating, we present our best self, because we're trying to woo, trying to draw, trying to seduce the other into wanting to be with us, into liking to be with us. Getting hooked on us. [00:06:55] And so we're always showing up as our best. I like to talk about that as seduction.
Part of the principle of seduction is it has to be two-way. It doesn't matter how hard somebody tries to seduce another individual. If we're not receptive to it, we can't be seduced. So early in that dating, we're working to be our best to seduce the other. And then our future spouse receives that seduction and they warm up to it and they allow it to touch their heart.
Sometime shortly after the wedding, we tend to stop doing that. "Well, this is who I am. It's who you married. Deal with it." Or we close our heart to the other. What you're trying to do to touch my heart, I no longer let it touch my heart because I'm hurt or I'm wounded or I'm angry. I'm punishing you. I'm doing passive-aggressive stuff, whatever. I no longer let the things that used to touch me truly matter.
And so I spent time helping couples to think through how can you be seductive to each other and then how can you receive that seduction and allow this space between you to be a wooing space, a drawing space. [00:08:06]
So I think my first practical would be that heart issue of how do we not act seductively, but how do we live seductively? How do we make sure that everything we do from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to bed is presenting our best self, not a false self, but our best self towards our spouse?
Laura Dugger: Then I even think of the research that you've done on a chemical level. So will you share the chemical reasons why couples who engage less are going to desire it less? And if they engage in sexual activity with each other more, they're going to desire it more.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Some of this is still in process in the biochemical field as we're looking at how does some of that play out. As we're talking about this, we're on early edge of stuff that down the road we might go, that's not quite exactly how we expected it to be. [00:09:05]
But we do tend to see that the law of thermodynamics... Dr. Rosenau used to talk about this. You put energy into something and it grows and you stop putting energy into it and it's going to die. I see so many times couples that intentionally actively work on growing any arena of their marriage, whether it's, you know, we're going to be better parents for a while, or we're going to really work on our finances and budget things or get a good savings going, or we're going to really work on our spiritual life. As we put energy into it, it grows. And it's no different with our sexual life.
I sometimes more so there because as a guy engages in sexual activity, not only is that often prompted by or fueled by our testosterone level, but then it increases our testosterone level. And we believe that there's very likely a cyclical loop that goes on, that the more we're engaging in it, the more it's produced in our system, and the more we desire it, so the more energy we have for it. [00:10:09]
It doesn't always work quite that cleanly for women. There tends to be another cycle that's often engaged. We think that much the same process works there though, that as we get into the habit, as it were, that it begins to be self-fueling, self-fulfilling, easy for both of those to get disrupted and to fall back. And we have to intentionally put energy back into it again. But if we ignore it for a while, it tends to spin down. And the more we ignore it, the more energy it takes to get it spun back up.
And couples come into my office who have neglected or because of wounding have stepped away from it, or there's been reasons that they haven't been pouring energy into the sexual part of the relationship. It takes so much energy to get it started back up. But once it gets started, it tends to run without very much energy and it doesn't take too much to even spin it up a little bit more. [00:11:07]
So yeah, we think there is some biochemical aspect that's going on there as well as just the relationship and the thought process. And maybe some spiritual energy that's coming into it as well.
Laura Dugger: That's good. It makes me think my husband loves to play golf and he will talk about improving his golf swing would be with a swing thought. So just clearing everything and thinking of one thing. So it's making me think of swing thoughts that you've taught me for when I was preparing to see my own clients.
And you and Dr. Doug and Deborah Taylor would all kind of summarize that as a swing thought to remember where you say a sex life in motion stays in motion and a sex life at rest stays at rest.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Dies. Yes. That is very true. The example that you just gave, as he is focusing in on one aspect of this far broader, larger game that he's thinking, you know, if I could improve this one aspect, it's going to spill into other areas. [00:12:15]
And doing the same thing with couples. What's an arena that they just don't do real well with? And can they spend a month just attending to it? You know, my favorite is to help couples attend to what I call the reflection stage, you know, that post climax as they hopefully lay there together and connect. That is an easy one for couples to neglect. And to invite them to take an entire month just to drink that in, to figure out what they like during that.
It may be five minutes, it may be 30 minutes. I've had one wife say it needs to be 24 hours, but whatever they agree to, to how do we enrich this part of our connecting, so it's not just this abrupt end? Okay, we've hit the climax and now I'll roll over and go to sleep and you go back to whatever you were doing. But we drink and we bask in that moment.
Laura Dugger: I'd love to read one of your quotes. [00:13:15] You write, "We must take it seriously that a spouse who is unhappy about how often they have sex is 10 times more likely to also be unhappy in marriage."
Dr. Michael Sytsma: That's huge impact there, isn't it? We found several places that the numbers were just massive like that. Now, of course, we can't tell a couple if you go have sex more often then you're going to have a better marriage. No more than we can say, you know, if you have a better marriage, nobody's going to be dissatisfied with the sexual frequency.
It may be that there's a tertiary issue going on that's causing both of those. But to see them that highly linked gives us at least some clues. If your spouse isn't happy with the frequency, then they're probably not going to be happy with the marriage. So that's one arena that we could work on the swing to help the overall game of the marriage. [00:14:18]
Laura Dugger: Sometimes I understand as a counselor being hesitant to write certain things because I know your heart is to make this a safe conversation. And so I don't want to get you in trouble with this next quote, but I love how you just clearly state "for multiple reasons, I encourage most couples to try to keep their engagement at once a week or more."
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, exactly what you're saying. You wrestle with how to say because there are so many reasons why that might not fit for a couple. And we say in the beginning, I write that early preface that says, if this isn't for you, please don't be wounded by it.
But that comes out of my clinical experience, Laura, as I watch couples, couples that tend to be intentional and make sure that this arena of their marriage is important, about once a week tends to keep a fairly healthy balance moving forward. When they drop to every 10 days, it's pretty easy for them to drop to every other week. [00:15:20] And once they drop to every other week, they start losing track. And then it drops to once a month. And once it hits once a month, now we're down to once every three months. And now we're into a sexless marriage and feelings get hurt and it's tough to talk about it. We blow up every time it's addressed. So couples just ignore the subject and then it dies.
If I see them having a weekly engagement, that tends to keep it at a minimal level of satisfaction, especially if there's... I work with several couples where one is an entrepreneur and they're in the midst of starting a new project. And it just is all consuming for a period of time. But if they are still intentional and connecting weekly, it seems like it draws the couple back together.
That being said, couples that have sex slightly over two times a week tend to be a lot happier in their marriage. But that often gets more difficult for couples to pull off, even in an intentional way and it starts to move into duty and responsibility and have-tos, which can kill a sex life very quickly too. [00:16:32] Where it seems like about once a week people can do and feel good about and not feel onerous. And that is a goal.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin.
In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.
In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. [00:17:34] Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments. Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even mini storage units available in some locations.
Leman Prperty Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.
Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@Lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at LemanProperties.com. That's LemanProperties dot com. Check them out and find your place to call home today. [00:18:37]
Laura Dugger: Differences in desired frequency is a common topic that couples can experience some frustration over in marriage. But what leads to both individuals in the marriage being happy with their frequency of sex?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I want to go back to your question. Not only is it frequent, but more than half of the couples, this is an area of intense conflict. In my dissertation, this was the topic of my doctoral dissertation, and half of the couples experience clinical level of distress because of the desired discrepancy. So to say this is common, it is extremely common and very painful for a lot of couples.
My major professor in the child development courses in my PhD used to assert that the best parents were radically divergent. The best parents had very different ideas of parenting. [00:19:36] One was going to be very nurturing and the other one was going to be very…. almost authoritarian. And he said, "But it's not the difference that is powerful. It's that they accept influence from each other. And when they approach it from a radically different perspective, and then they accept influence from each other," he said, "what comes out of that is really powerful for the child." And I love that imagery.
And much of the time, it's the same thing, that a higher drive spouse steps in and they pour energy into it. They're thinking about it. They're wanting it to happen. They enjoy it. The lower energy spouse don't have as much energy, but if they can accept the influence of the higher drive, higher desire, initiating desire individual, it helps to add the energy up.
The receptive desire or the lower desire person, those aren't always the same, but as two different categories, they're often pointing out there's a couple of things that need to happen for the physical connection to be rich, to be good. [00:20:41] "I need you to touch my heart more. I need to feel like you care for me, not just for my body. I need you to stop screaming and being critical outside of the bedroom so I feel like I want to connect with you." They're often asking for another really critical part of the sexual connection.
If the initiating and/or the more higher desire drive spouse can accept the influence that, yeah, I need to do a better job of laying the foundation or creating a setting that is rich for our sex life, it's going to do better. I think when couples come in with a differing perspective, it can actually be very good for the couple. If they talk about it, if they're curious and open to each other, if they work on being seductive with each other, if they accept influence from each other's perspective, they can find a middle ground that is rich for both of them.
Laura Dugger: Isn't that interesting? Because at the core of that, it sounds like a character piece that each person is responsible for, whether that's self-control or character piece of coachability and humility. That is really interesting. [00:21:53]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: It is. Sometimes it's setting myself aside for the priority of the we for the us. You know, the reason I went into sex therapy is I tell couples that even the couples that I'm working with, I don't care if you have a good sex life or not. That's not my goal. To have a great sex life requires some transformation of things that are internal to who we are. And as we learn to have a great sex life, it changes who we are. Our character does grow and develop if it's going to be healthy. So yeah, you just pointed out a core part of the whole process to me. It is about discipleship.
Laura Dugger: Even following up with... you explain so many factors in the book to elaborate as well on how couples can be happier with their frequency of sex in marriage. But there's one that you mentioned that I want to have you elaborate on when you write that it's when partners can communicate well about sex. [00:22:54] So what are the best ways that spouses can practice communicating well about sex and what are the potential benefits?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Let me go backwards on that. Let's start with the benefits. The benefits are just huge. This was another area where the impact was so great. My memory, without the numbers being in front of me, it was 6.4 times. Couples who were effectively communicating about sex in their marriage had dramatically increased frequency. They had dramatically increased satisfaction around frequency. They were far happier couples in general. Just the impact is so high.
Now, it is possible that couples that are happy with each other are more open to talking as well. So it can go both ways. But to see that huge impact.
Learning to communicate with each other is a skill that can be developed. We don't have to just have the innate ability.[00:23:56] We can practice it. We can learn how. So it is a very tangible way that we can create change very quickly in our sex life and in our overall marriage.
Part of the design for the book is to address the question you just asked, because I wrote it continually saying, This is a book that I want couples to sit down with and read it out loud to each other, not with the goal of getting to the end of the book. Though, every time I say that, I cringe inside because I think chapter 10 is some of the richest stuff in there. So I want them to get to that. But it's not to get to the end of the book. It's to pause every couple of sentences and to talk about it.
I was talking with a couple recently, they said, "We took your challenge on." They said, "We actually do this for books on an ongoing basis. So it's pretty common for us to read a book out loud to each other and to talk about it." He said, "But usually we will read an entire section of the book and then pause and talk about it for a few minutes before we move on." He said, "There's so much in this book." He said, "We would read two sentences and we'd have a 10-minute conversation. So then we'd read the rest of the paragraph and we'd be off for another 15-minute conversation." [00:25:08] And he said, "We have learned so much about each other and thinking out loud and wrestling with it." And I love that. That's what it's about.
For couples that don't know how to talk at all, I use lovetakeslearning.com. There are other materials out there that can teach them just basic listening skills. They may need to go back to that. But then it's just sitting down and practicing it, staying at the table, leaning in.
When your feelings get hurt, taking a deep breath and calming yourself down. "I believe in my spouse mostly. And so we can do this, I think." And just staying present with it until they figure out how to have the experience of talking well to each other.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much because there are just endless benefits. If you can grow and becoming comfortable with talking about this, I feel like the possibilities are endless after that.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: They are. So much opens up for the couple. [00:26:09] At one level, what we're talking about just sounds so simple, Laura. But because sex is so central to our hearts, because of how society, whether that be the larger society or the society we grew up with, our family, our church community, or whatever we grew up, has a lot of messages about sex that are potentially wounding or restrictive or too unboundaried, whatever it was, we bring that into it. It's easy to get hurt, to get wounded. It's easy to get offended. And yet, if we can stay at the table and we can continually, calmly talk through it, we can find a way to really develop a rich intimacy with each other.
Laura Dugger: I hope that that offers a lot of hope to anyone listening. Dr. Mike, where are we likely to attribute incorrect motives to our spouse? And how does that negatively impact our sex lives? [00:27:12]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think we do it in every stage of the sex life. I've got a model. They can find it intimacymodel.com. But I've got a model that I walk couples through that gives different stages of the sexual act. I will research each of those stages.
Couples do misattribution at every stage. Desire is a huge arena for... where I'll ask a wife, if it were totally up to you, how often would you like to engage in sex? And I'll ask the husband, how often do you think your wife wants to engage in sex? And they will be so far apart. The most common answer I get from wives is one to two times a week. And if the couple's in distress, the husband will answer never. And I point to him and say, "There's a big difference between her not ever wanting to have sex, which is what you think, and her saying she'd like to have it one to two times a week. Why do you think you guys are so far apart?" And it's because they're not talking about it. They're not communicating again. [00:28:10]
Another one we looked at in this research, in the marital intimacy project, is we looked at orgasms and the importance of orgasms and how often a husband, what he identifies as the importance of orgasm for himself, for his wife, or how important he thinks his wife feels it is for him to have an orgasm, for her to have her own. So we've got these cross-questions going all over the place.
Honestly, wives have men fairly well figured out in some of this, but in some of this, guys are way off in what they think their wives are thinking. And oral sex, the same thing. We looked at a lot of the questions there and what spouses think about the other and what they want and what they enjoy, often they are way off from each other.
Of course, the more distressed the marriage, the further away they're going to be, the more poor attributions there are. Couples that are pretty happy and are communicating more, obviously we see much less misattribution. [00:29:12] But it shows up in every area, especially if a couple's not talking.
Laura Dugger: I love how you point out how understanding one another is going to be so beneficial. So when we look at men and women, there are differences. So how does desire tend to work differently for men and women?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: It does get tricky, Laura, because this is on a spectrum, and we do see... the numbers tell us that there are stereotypical differences between men and women. But I work with a huge number of couples that walk in and are the flip of the stereotype.
So I'm always cautious every time we start talking about it to know that a quarter to a third of the audience is going to go, wait, that's not me. But if we start talking stereotypes, more commonly women are going to experience a receptive type of desire, especially a couple of years into marriage or after the first child. [00:30:12]
Men will tend to experience more of the initiating type of desire, where they are thinking about sex more frequently and they're pursuing it more, where she's going to likely be, "I haven't thought about it in a couple of days, but if you seduce me in the right way, I'd be open to it. And once I'm open to it and I start to engage and I begin to get aroused and I am aware of the arousal and I view the arousal as positive, then the desire kicks in." And we tend to see that a bit more stereotypical for women.
But that being said, we see a lot of older men, 55 years and older saying, No, that's me now. I sound like that today. That's how I work. So it changes sometimes with whether we want to have kids, how stressed we are in life, how fulfilled we feel in life. It may change with where we are physically. That I am in really good shape and I'm sleeping well and I'm eating healthy versus I'm under a lot of pressure and stress and I'm just not sleeping well and my diet is really poor. [00:31:21] All of those things can make a difference too.
Laura Dugger: You articulate that all so well. I'm just going to keep sprinkling in these quotes, but I love this one. You write, "In general, for men, desire leads to sex, while for women, sex leads to desire."
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, to get something into a book like this, you have to be almost oversimplifying. And I really wrestled with that because it's not fully accurate, but yet it's correct. What we're thinking right now in the field, at least what many of us are thinking, is that desire follows arousal for everybody, that something turns on in our body.
Maybe it's, you know, his wife walked by getting out of the shower and he saw an image that just sparks a release of testosterone in his system. So now he's aroused and he is aware of the arousal, so he experiences the desire. [00:32:26] And so now he wants.
We've seen that for many women they're not as aware of those micro-arousals. They're not as aware of what it feels like to wake up in the morning and have their body already be in kind of a slight arousal state, or they're not aware that that smell or that voice prompts some level of arousal in my body. So then if they're not aware of it, they're not evaluating it positively, and they're not allowing it to shift into desire.
So the thinking is he experiences these micro states of arousal, assesses that the desire turns on very quickly. Then he begins to pursue sexual activity, and now the arousal truly kicks in. So it seems like he experiences desire, pursues the activity, and then has arousal.
Because she's not as aware of it, it seems like the arousal has to come first, that she's like, Yeah, I haven't thought about it in 10 days, but we could do that. As long as I get the laundry switched over and the dishes done, and, you know, the kids in bed, then we can. [00:33:34] And she begins to engage physically, and maybe her mind's not fully there yet. But as her body starts to engage and she becomes aware of it, oh, this does feel kind of, I like his attention on me. Now she's aware of the arousal and she's assessing it positively. Then we see the desire kick in.
So for her, it seems like there needs to be some sense of arousal before the desire happens. It's not as clean as that, but that's the experience of it. And so that's why the quote is the way it is, that it almost seems to be on opposite ends for the stereotypical male and female. But some of it is the awareness of what's happening in our bodies, too.
Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?[00:34:37]
Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.
I don't want to miss this topic as well, because this conversation has been a time of addressing healthy marriages and not destructive ones. But you also write about couples. You say, "often they have heard teaching on divorce that isn't truly biblical and I walk them through what Scripture actually says, for example, to help them see that tolerating sin is sin."
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Correct.
Laura Dugger: Dr. Mike, what are other examples of what Scripture does actually have to say on this topic?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: That almost moves into a whole other podcast as we unpack some of Scripture. I think what I'm addressing there is the couples that come in, and there's a sense of demanding, a sense of "I'm owed. I deserve something. You promised something," and it is turned into a sinful degrading of the other, where we are saying, because you are doing it wrong, you are sinning, and you just need to do what I want. [00:35:55]
I tell people, pressure rarely is seductive, as opposed to, I see Christ continually inviting. You know, of anybody who had the right to demand from us, we see Him regularly inviting people around Him. And then when somebody doesn't go along, we don't see Him demanding, we don't see Him ridiculing them. We see Him like He told His disciples to do, brush the sand off your feet and move on.
It gets tricky when we move into marriage because He does challenge us to make a lifelong commitment and hold to that no matter what. And in doing so, if we make that commitment critical, we have to surrender aspects of us that are unhealthy and unholy.
But if our spouse is unwilling to surrender those and moves into doing harm, now there's already sin in the marriage. And we see things like, you know, in the Old Testament, He said, "If there's not protection, provision, and having sex, even the slave women could leave." [00:36:59]
It seems like there are some rights to marriage that He acknowledges, that if there is trauma and abuse, that is not a healthy marriage. And to demand that somebody stay a part of it, to demand that somebody do what I want because you are my spouse and you have to do it that way, that's not reflective of the heart of Christ. It's not reflective of the heart of God.
That's a bigger discussion, but I think we can argue that that is not at all scriptural marriage. Scripture gives... I see plenty of options for those couples to get out. Not that I'm giving permission to get out. My goal is to give permission for either of them to say, "This is not healthy. Stop demanding that I behave in the way that you want. Let's communicate, let's accept influence from each other. Let's lean in to find a middle balance that is Christ reflective, that is about the spirit and of the body, that is about pursuing oneness, not about demanding for self." [00:38:04]
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's good. You're making me remember, there was a listener who wrote in and had the viewpoint that she wanted to make her marriage work. And she believes God's ideal is that they were designed to be in marriage forever in covenant.
But she also wrote that after studying the scriptures, she shared how God is a God of compassionate exceptions. And she said, such as healing on the Sabbath. And that helped her recognize that God was actually leading her to separation from her abusive husband because she said, God cares more about the individual than the institution.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh, you know, God's heart is always first for the person. Lots of stories, but one of my favorites is they throw this woman at Christ's feet, who's been caught in a sin where he wrote the law that says she has to be stoned. [00:39:05] You know, the irony here is just rich.
He wrote the law and they throw her at his feet and say, what should we do with her? Well, he already wrote it down for them. Then he turns and looks at them and he says, "Well, who has the right to condemn her? Who is without sin? Obviously, we all know the story. Nobody is without sin. So nobody had the right to condemn her. He's the only one that does.
His word had already said what is to happen. That is the law. But look at his response to her. His response is one that cares for her in her heart. As He looks at her and says, "I don't condemn you." And He extends profound grace to her. And then a short time later, He hangs on the cross to pay the debt of her sin. He took it upon himself.
We tend to look at somebody and say, yeah, "That sin, you can't do that. You're going to experience all kinds of punishment because you chose divorce." [00:40:05] I don't see that happening as Christ interacts with people that are caught in a life that is outside of His ideal. And many times I work with couples and I think, There is no way I would allow my child to be married to your spouse. Your wife is just way too unhealthy, too critical, too destructive. Your husband is way too abusive, way too selfish, and demanding. I would not want my child to be married to them. I cannot imagine that God who cares so deeply for a child, us, would demand that we stay into something that is destructive to us.
Now, sometimes He invites us to stay because He knows what He's going to be doing with it. And transformation is very real. And I watch couples stay longer than what I would personally choose for them and I watch God do amazing things in the marriage. You know, scripture says, Let each one know what is right before the Lord, to seek that out with fear and trembling. [00:41:11]
So I don't think there are good, hard, and fast rules. But I totally agree with you. The people are what's most important to God in the heart of grace. And His compassion for us, even when we step outside of His ideal will, is profound.
Laura Dugger: Well, you also encourage us to have a higher image of God's good gift of sex and marriage, and even say sex is a divine object lesson. So will you elaborate on this idea?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, Dr. Rosenau, who, you know, had huge impact on all of us in the Christian sex field. When I started working with him 30 years ago, he would say that every scripture verse talks about sex. And I was like, yeah, you're a little over-focused there, Doug. But the more I read, the more I listen to people, the more I study, you know, I can't go as far as he did. But, you know, some of it was to push people.
God is continually revealing Himself through His creation. [00:42:10] And He desires us to know Him. And I do agree. Doug used to say, when we get to heaven, we're going to realize that God is a sexual creature. Not like we think of sex, but we'll go, Oh, I get it. That's what you're trying to teach us. That what it takes for a husband and wife to engage truly in an honoring, rich sexual intimacy, it requires the heart of God. It requires a Christlike attitude and spirit. And He regularly teaches us that over and over and over again.
My favorite example of that, I write about in chapter 10, of Him being incarnate, meaning that Christ is fully God and fully man. And if we remove any of the spirit nature of Him or any of the physical nature of Him, we have something that's warped, something that's heretical, something that's disincarnate.
I watched so many couples remove either the heart of it, the spirit of it, the care, the love, the compassion, the tenderness, the fighting for the oneness connection with each other. [00:43:15] Either they remove that or they remove the body of it. Well, I know you need it, so I'll just be a presence here. No, that's not okay. Anytime we overemphasize or deemphasize one side or the other, we do damage and it's no longer Christ-reflective.
And I think He keeps trying to teach us what it's like to be Him and what it takes to be in relationship with Him. I can say I love God, but if I don't put action to that, do I really love God? It's about both the spirit and the body. And it flows all the way through the process, right down into the techniques that we use in sex have to be incarnate, have to be both spirit and body for them to be rich. And I think He just keeps telling us over and over again, do you not get My heart yet? I keep trying to share it with you. And I love how sex does that on such a rich, profound level.
Laura Dugger: Well, Dr. Mike, you explain things so well, and I'm going to have to link to our previous episodes together. But you still have so much more you could share and teach. So where would you like to direct us all to be able to follow up after this conversation? [00:44:26]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, there's two websites that people can go to. Secretsofsexandmarriage.com, the book website has a lot of resources there, including, you know, for those that experience pain, trauma, where to find additional help if they're struggling in this area. We've got articles on that website there.
That will also link over to my primary website, IntimateMarriage.org, where some of the teaching is available. They can get some of my streaming courses there. The blog posts that link to various podcasts and stuff that we've written is all on IntimateMarriage.org.
Laura Dugger: Well, perfect. I will add links to all of those places in the show notes for today's episode. And you're very familiar we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Dr. Mike, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I would go all the way back to the beginning of that seduction. And if I could give one key ingredient to that sauce, it would be, stay curious. [00:45:29] Curiosity, you know, we did an entire chapter on it. Curiosity is so profound in its ability to change and to help couples to communicate well. So in being seductive, if they can work on being curious about each other rather than demanding or critical of, it really adds rich flavor.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Dr. Mike, I'm so grateful. I've known you for well over a decade now, and I've been able to witness you lead and teach with humility. And your humility is even apparent from the intro of this debut book of yours. And it was, again, apparent throughout our conversation today. So thank you for handling this topic with care and in a posture that exudes the fruit of the spirit. Thank you very much for being my guest.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You're so very kind. I love what you're doing. Always happy to be a part. You're a really good interviewer too, Laura. [00:46:29]
Laura Dugger: Aw, thank you. That means so much.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:47:31] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:48:31]
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:49:34] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.