The Savvy Sauce

227 Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

227. Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 15:1 (NIV) "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

 

As co-hosts of the top marriage podcast in Apple Podcasts, the ONE Extraordinary Marriage Show, Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo speak to a worldwide audience about sex, love & commitment, and challenge every listener to make their relationship a priority. Their best selling book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy, has transformed countless marriages around the world. This framework is simple, practical, and powerful. You’ll be inspired to look at your marriage through a new lens and be encouraged by its commonsense approach.

 

One Extraordinary Marriage Website

One Extraordinary Marriage Show

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. For couples who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are typical conflict styles and cycles?

2. What conflict have you had recently and how did you process through it?

3. What are common issues couples fight about?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick

 

190 Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo

 

205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:01] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage.  Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo are my returning guests today. They love to impact marriages. Alisa recently wrote another book with Tony's contributions, and it's entitled, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution.

 

So we're going to hear about ways each of us can take action and grow in productive and healthier conflict resolution. 

 

Here's our chat. [00:01:17] 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Tony and Alisa.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Hey, Laura. It's so great to be here again with you.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: We're excited to be back.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'm going to add links back to your previous episode in the show notes, but in case anyone missed our initial time together in Episode 190, will you just share a bit about yourselves and the work that you get to do?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. A little bit about Tony and I. We have been married now for 27 years. We have two children. We have an 18-year-old daughter and a 21-year-old son, and we've been blessed to speak into marriages for the last, oh gosh, almost 14 years now.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Out of a lot of dysfunction in our own marriage, we went on a journey to really get radical about how marriage is done, to make marriage a priority, to understand all of these different facets of marriage, and have been just so blessed to impact thousands upon thousands of lives around the globe.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. We always say it here: it's our desire to see you have the extraordinary marriage you desire. [00:02:22] So whenever we're sharing with the one family, that's who we call our audience, it's what can we do to help you have the extraordinary marriage you desire?

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. Back to that previous episode we did together, it was incredible just to hear how the Lord rescued both of you. And really that was intertwining your faith story with your marriage journey as well.

 

And as of today, like you said, you get to work with so many couples. So would you say it's normal for two people in a relationship to experience conflict?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. Laura, I've had the privilege to coach somewhere in the vicinity of 500, pushing 600 individuals and couples over the last 10 years. And if there's been one consistent theme in every single coaching session I've ever had, it's that there's some source of conflict because husbands and wives are different, and how they see the world, how they perceive the world, how they receive the world is different. And when those differences collide, that's where you can have conflict. [00:03:25] 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: And truth be told, having been married 27 years, known each other 29 years, conflict still arises, even in our own marriage. We work on this on the daily. And yet we have the tools now to overcome those conflicts quicker and easier.

 

Laura Dugger: Which is always such an encouragement. Do you want to share or elaborate a little bit further? Any even recent conflict that comes to mind for the two of you that was personal, but how you walk through that in a healthy way?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's so funny that you asked that question, Laura, because I can sense the emotion. But I think one of the things that Tony and I have really worked on over the years is not letting the incident be-

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Like seared into our minds and our spirit and holding onto it. So when there's resolution and we let go of it. So it takes us a little bit to go, Oh, wait, what was that?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So we had an incident with that 18-year-old daughter. [00:04:23] But there's a dynamic there because I do think a lot of conflicts for couples revolve around parenting or the observation of a parent-child relationship. 

 

Our 18-year-old, she's a senior in high school.  She's in the midst of the whole college application search and all of the angst that comes with, where am I going next? And she had a week a few weeks ago where she was just... she was a little short.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Snippy.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Snippy with her parents. She was interacting with me and I was addressing it in one way. But when she interacts with me and it gets to a certain level, Laura, Tony comes to the end of his rope. And so then not only am I dealing with our daughter, but then Tony and I are starting to have words because he doesn't necessarily... I can even feel him getting hot right now as I'm relaying the story. 

 

If he doesn't like how she's responding, then he also starts to get involved. And so now I've got potentially conflict going on in sort of like a triangle mode.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Right. 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: That's what it was.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Which then creates conflict between Alisa and I because of the way she is handling it or I'm handling it. [00:05:26] And so then that gets in between us on how are we parenting and how should we move forward? And so, yeah, that was a bit of a mess.

 

Laura Dugger: But that's so relatable. I love how you point that out, the triangulation. And I'm sure so many conflicts in marriage come from parenting.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Mm-hmm.

 

Laura Dugger: Also, you said that there are some tools that you have in your belt. So was there a tool that you use to resolve that in a healthy way?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: For us, definitely. One of the things that we have come to realize over the years of studying marriage, working with couples, is that it's so important for both spouses to recognize how they process time. What I mean by that is there are going to be situations where one person is going to want to... Like, we have to take care of this right now. 

 

I often refer to it in the book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution, as that need for immediate resolution. [00:06:23] We need an answer. We need a solution. We need to do it right now. 

 

And that person is often married to somebody who needs a little more time to process. They're the ones that want to withdraw, retreat, think through their thoughts. And so being able to hear and recognize for both spouses what's valuable in that moment, and this is what Tony and I do a lot of times, giving your spouse what they need. If they need resolution, being able to say, "Hey, give me 15 minutes. Let me think through it," or "give me an hour, and I'll come back to you." And that person who asked for time coming back to saying, "Hey, I thought this through. Here are my thoughts." And then being able to actually have a productive conversation on the other side of that.

 

Laura Dugger: I also just want us to be able to differentiate then between healthy conflict, like you've modeled for us, but then conflict that's actually abusive. Are there any markers to help us identify an abusive situation?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, I think it's really important as you start to see in our relationship, when you start to see those patterns of behavior that start to become used to either gain or maintain power and control. [00:07:30] So there becomes this uneven balance of symmetry in the relationship. You get into a place where there's humiliation, or you keep arguments going on late into the night and so we start talking about sleep deprivation. There's name-calling.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: A little man.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah, you can get into a place where physically your space feels threatened and those types of things. That's where it's really crossing that line into an abusive and potentially dangerous situation.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. And what we always say, Laura, God never made you to sit in that. I do not believe that we have a loving God who wants you to sit in that. And if you are in an emotionally, physically, sexually abusive relationship, please get help. There are abuse hotlines that you can jump on that allow you to stay anonymous. People can't find you. But do get help. Seek it out. 

 

We are very adamant about that, Laura. When these situations even come up on episodes that we have on our podcasts, we always share this. [00:08:32] Because I do, and Alisa and I both believe that God has not called you to stay in a relationship where you are being belittled, manipulated, physically abused, or even sexually abused.

 

Laura Dugger: I couldn't agree with both of you more. I'll just add one more link to Leslie Vernick's episode as well. She had shared the difference between a disappointing marriage and a destructive marriage.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Ooh, yes.

 

Laura Dugger: It's right in line with what the two of you are sharing. So for couples then who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are the typical conflict styles and cycles?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So when we talk about conflict styles first, most people immediately think of fight or flight. That's where when conflict starts, one person's like, "I'm out of here." That's the flight. Or the fight is like, "No, I'm staying in. I'm lacing up my boxing gloves. And here we go."

 

In the work that I've done with couples, I've been able to identify that there are actually two other styles that often show themselves. [00:09:36] One is freeze. And that's where the person just shuts down. They're not necessarily physically retreating like the flight might do but they're not engaged. It's literally almost like a paralysis in that situation when the conflict starts to manifest.

 

There's also a fourth style that I talk about in the book, and that's the fawning. That's like the people-pleasing. I'll say whatever you want me to say or I'll do whatever you want me to do just to make this conflict go away. So those are the four styles that generally come up. 

 

When we start to talk about conflict cycles, really breaking this down came out of hundreds of coaching hours and watching clients. And  I finally got to a point probably seven or eight years ago where I literally took a sheet of paper and a pen as I was in a client session and I started drawing this circle on the paper. And I'm like, "Okay, well, tell me..." And this is where it started. "Tell me where the conflict starts. Tell me how it starts. Tell me what the two of you experience." 

 

And that's the first phase of conflict. Something triggers it. There is a catalyst. [00:10:37]  There's a moment. There's a look. There's something gets brought up. There's a kid snapping, whatever it might be.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Can I say, too, at that starting point, too, Laura, what may start the conflict isn't necessarily what you're arguing about. You or your spouse could be dealing with a myriad of other things that your spouse knows or doesn't know about. And this now has just started this conflict. It could be as much as the freezer door gets left open.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Has that ever happened in our house, Tony?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Which has happened here. You know what I mean? It could be small things, though, Laura, and the conflict starts. But we have to be reminded there are stresses that are happening in us and in our spouse, there are situations emotionally, you know, mentally that we're dealing with at work, at home, with extended family, at church, wherever it may be. And the conflict starts. [00:11:38] 

 

Laura Dugger: You bring up such a good point, because I'm even remembering back to graduate school. They gave us just a hopeful little phrase to think of when we were in sessions with clients. And if we're getting hysterical, it's usually because we're historical.

 

So that deep history, whether it goes back to attachment or other things from childhood or landmines from previous experiences with your relationship, I think you're really on to something there. So continue.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah. So after the conflict starts, if it's not arrested or interrupted at that point in time, then the next phase is this escalation phase. And this is where one or both of you, you start to feel the blood pressure rising. 

 

This is where a lot of people will start to feel those physiological effects. Like they might start sweating. They might start, you know, clenching their jaw, feeling the pit of their stomach.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Sweating.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: I mean, they're just getting hot. I mean, there's so many different reactions that can begin to happen in each of us at this point. [00:12:37] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: And yet at this point, you still could potentially interrupt it. You just kind of start having those thoughts of, oh, I know where this is going to go. You know, it's sort of that fine line. You can tell us it's escalating. A lot of people will even use that word. Like, I feel like I'm escalating. But that's just this upward arc of things are getting more intense in that phase. 

 

After the escalation phase in the cycle, you get to what I affectionately refer to as the boiling point. You know, if you can imagine a volcano, this is when the volcano starts to spew. And whether one of you is loud and aggressive or one of you, you know, kind of turns into an iceberg and everything shuts down, this is that kind of point of no return. 

 

It's where the words get said. It's where somebody might storm out of a room kind of in that flight stage. It's where the harshness, that destructiveness, that's where this can really come into play at the boiling point.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Tone. 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Tone is a big deal. 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Tone, timing of those words. They become more direct. They're just more pinpointed. [00:13:38] There's a pitch to them that you've heard and it's not a normal everyday voice that usually comes out of you.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So after the boiling point, there's usually some sort of cool down in that. And that's really where, you know, we might not be talking to each other. It might be referred to as walking on eggshells for some couples. It might be the silent treatment. Might be, you know, one person's out and then... I have a lot of couples who have a man cave. So somebody retreats to the man cave or the she shed or, you know, we go to our separate spaces. And there's just this coming back into a place of regulation of the emotions individually.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: I like to call this our time of space. We've hit the boiling point and now I just need some space to get my thoughts together to de-escalate, right? Like to come down from this boiling point. It's like having a pot on the stove. It starts off cold, you have the flame under it, it starts to boil, it's boiling, and then you turn off the flame and it comes back down. [00:14:48] 

 

And I find that this is that time some of us, including myself, can sometimes just want to exercise or do something active. I need to move a little bit. And so this is that time where you're just cooling down, getting your thoughts back in order, what happened, thinking through what you said and maybe what was said at you.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: And then the final stage is this place of either return to status quo where you kind of sweep things under the rug and you just start acting like you like each other again. Or it's a resolution. It depends on what the situation is and depends on who the couple is and how they handle things, which one of those two things surfaces. But getting into this place of saying, Okay, we're going to start doing life together again. We're going to start engaging. Couples will move through that at different speeds. 

 

What I find is when a couple's had this buildup of all these historical grievances, they'll actually spin through that cycle a lot faster. [00:15:45] And they just keep going, jumping very quickly to the boiling point and then return to status quo, boiling point, status quo, boiling point, status quo. And that's really where you get into the destructive nature of conflict in a lot of marriages.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

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Laura Dugger: And I'm guessing that even when you're pointing this out and you're slowing the couples down to reveal this cycle, I'm sure that's helpful in itself. But when you're meeting with those clients, are you trying to have them recognize the cycle or interrupt it? Or what are some ways, once they're aware of it, that they can start to make that a healthier cycle? [00:17:44] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, the first thing is, as in all things with ourselves, it's becoming aware of what our patterns of behavior are. It's very hard to interrupt something if you don't know what you're doing. 

 

When I first start working with couples around their conflict cycles, it's, hey, the next time you two have a fight, I just want you to think through each one of those five phases and I want you to write down what happened there. 

 

And so just that active process of, oh, well, this is when I started to roll my eyes because I thought you were going to bring that up again. And this is when my voice started to change because I was getting so animated. And this is when I was so mad at you and then I just needed to walk away. And then I was able to apologize. So being in that place where they're just aware of it. Because you can't interrupt something you don't know.

 

And so then as I work with couples, we're working backwards. What happens when conflict starts? What could either one of you, if I'm working with both spouses, do differently once you're aware of what the conflict cycle looks like for yourself and for your spouse? [00:18:48] And we do that at every phase to create more connection so that they don't feel like they've got the Grand Canyon in between the two of them whenever they're in conflict.

 

Laura Dugger: Alisa, I love how you mentioned the words, I'm sorry, in there too, because that is so powerful to be able to repair. I'm sure that's a huge part of it then.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. You know, so much is gifted when there's an authentic "I'm sorry", when there is that genuine bid for repair in the relationship, not just the flippant, well, I'm sorry, whatever, you know, that type of thing. "But you know what? I've had time to actually process what happened. And I am sorry for my behavior. I apologize to you. I'm asking you to forgive me for the words I said or how I came across." When there's that genuine bid for repair, so much is gifted to a marriage.

 

Laura Dugger: It reminds me of that scripture, a gentle answer turns away wrath.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: That's actually one of my most favorite scriptures, Proverbs 15:1. [00:19:52] When it comes to talking about conflict and whatnot, the soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. I always listen to podcasts. And so recently I was listening to one, I believe his name is Brant Hansen, who recently wrote a book about being unoffendable. He was pulling out the truth of that scripture and just saying it turns away wrath in the other person when you approach them with humility to seek forgiveness. But also your own wrath and anger dissipates. And that's why biblical principles are always the best. Right?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Absolutely.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, because we feel the words that we speak and how they're spoken before the other person ever receives them. We experience them first. And so if we choose that soft answer, that is such a conscious choice on our side that can't help but impact the entire situation.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Laura, you know, as Alisa shared, been married 27 years, and so by no means has our marriage been perfect all those years. [00:20:56] There was a time when... and this is just in the recent past, I'd say in the last two, three years now, definitely coming out of the pandemic type stuff that we all dealt with a lot of anger. I was facing that. 

 

There was this point where I remember just everything Alisa said to me that I didn't agree with, the conflict started. And it escalated quickly, to no fault of Alisa's. It was really myself. I had to look at myself in the mirror and realize that there was some stuff that was happening that I wasn't addressing. And I remember just at one point in time, she finally just was very clear. And it's just like, "You have some anger issues going on right now, Tony, and I believe you need to get some help."

 

And it was just hearing that and acknowledging it that I was just like, "You know what? You're right." Because what Alisa just shared there and you did as well, I was the one who was really just stuck in this place. And I needed clarity. [00:22:09] 

 

I went and got myself a coach who also does counseling, but we did it online. So coach on one side, counselor on the other, and just worked with him for a few months. And it was probably one of the best things I did because it really just changed that trajectory for myself.

 

Laura Dugger: Aw, Tony, I'm so grateful you shared that. Even from the last episode and this one, your vulnerability is so respectable. And I think we could learn a lot from your experience with that. 

 

When you reflect back, what was most beneficial and even applicable to help change those patterns of anger?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: You know, for myself, I love coaches because coaches are all about being intentional and taking action. And so when I got to sit down with my coach, he really began to just lay out stuff. He heard me out. [00:23:10] Like we had to talk about what was going on, but he didn't sit there.

 

He began to listen to me and just go, "Okay, Tony, I want you to think about this." And he would lay things out for me and he would draw things out for me. Because sometimes even for myself, words after a while, they sort of just go over my head. But if you show me some diagram like what Alisa put together, even in the conflict resolution book with the conflict cycle, he gave me this diagram and he was just talking about it and how we're on that seesaw. Alisa and I are on that seesaw. And how am I treating her on that seesaw? Like it's a place to be fun. And where am I on that? 

 

It just helped me to just see things differently. And we just work through different things each week until I begin to recognize and release some stuff. And we would go into things and like, what's going on this week? What's been tough? What's taking you to that boiling point? Let's address that. Is it family? Is it business? Is it church? Is it outside friends? [00:24:15] Is it family, you know? 

 

And so just even releasing some of that stuff was helpful. It's not that I don't talk to Alisa about this stuff. Our emotional intimacy pillar is very strong. And yet just having a third party to just listen to some of the stuff was helpful because he listened and he gave me some stuff back where Alisa is my wife. And for her to take that in, she takes it in differently. And how we address it and possible get to resolution is different than me just walking in and just going, "This is what's going on, man. And I need some clarity."

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you draw that out, because you guys are that couple as well that can be the third party to someone else seeking help. I don't usually link to so many other episodes, but you're bringing so many connections about. 

 

So going back, Tony, just how you just briefly mentioned that sometimes you work out to kind of decompress. Alisa Keeton, was a recent guest, with Revelation Wellness and she was teaching how our emotions get trapped in our body. [00:25:20] And that is such a healthy, God-given way to work them out. So I think that's a very practical takeaway that you shared.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: One of my favorites is I get on my bike. I'm a road cyclist. I've been riding since I was 14 years old, and I stopped at times. And then God calls me back and he's like, "Tony, get on your bike." I'm like, "Oh, God, but I'm not in shape anymore and I'm older now and I'm not the cyclist I used to be." And He's just like, "I don't care. Just get on your bike for an hour." And I've had so many moments of just riding my bike... just breakthrough happens. I have music in one ear and I'm just out there pedaling. 

 

It's something I've done, like I said, since I was 14 years old so there's this familiarity with it, which just allows me to just be free from everything else. And God just speaks to me at times when I'm wrestling. And I can just come home and I'm like, "Alisa, I got the breakthrough. I know what we got to do here." It's just like boom, boom, boom. And it's like, Oh, yes.

 

Laura Dugger: That's powerful. [00:26:20] I think it's valuable to get to learn how conflict resolution is handled well. So what trends or lessons are you seeing in the healthiest couples?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: You know, really what I'm seeing and what I'm equipping the couples that I work with is getting back to this place of two things. One is identifying what the actual problem is. As a society, Laura, we've gotten really comfortable being angry. It's socially acceptable to be angry. You can't look at any social media platform. You can't look at the news. You can't pretty much be anywhere without seeing people being angry. We've almost become numb as a society to conflict. It's everywhere.

 

But often it's person against person. We're not identifying the problems anymore. We're just fighting with somebody because they think differently or they've got different beliefs or whatnot. Instead of saying, hey, what's the actual, specifically in a marriage, what's the actual thing that's got us so upset? Are we upset that we got an unexpected bill? [00:27:20] Are we upset that, you know, one of our children is in a really difficult season of life right now? Are we upset that we haven't had time for one another? 

 

So instead of being upset at Tony and going, "You don't love me" and all this kind of stuff, be like, "Hey, I've given this some thought. We haven't spent a lot of time together lately." That's a totally different conversation. And he's going to respond much differently.

 

So one is identifying the problem, what it truly is. And the second is getting curious again. You know, when your spouse comes at you and you can hear the emotion, instead of just going on the defensive and being like, "Oh, yeah, well, you're going to be angry at me? Guess what? I'm going to be angry right back at you and I'm going to raise you three octaves of yelling," we get to this place where we say, "Hey, like I can hear all that emotion. Let's just pause for a second, actually, you and I connect. What's going on here? What have we not been doing that actually makes us really successful? Let's identify that first."

 

And oftentimes that curiosity starts to create the connection. So that a couple can have resolution. [00:28:22] 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's continue on with that, because a huge piece of conflict resolution is communication. So what are a few questions then to promote curiosity and friendship?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's coming to this place of, you know, when you hear your spouse say something, say, "Hey, tell me more about how this is impacting you. Tell me more about what you see going on. What does this look like for you?"  

 

Because we can get so wrapped up in our own,  like, I just got to take care of the 22 things on my to-do list today and I've got three kids that are screaming at me and all this kind of stuff that we can lose sight that our spouse sees the world differently.

 

So stepping into that place of saying, "Hey, honey, I hear your anger. I can tell we're kind of ramping up for some conflict here." And even with a touch that you can grab a hand next to them, you're just like shoulder to shoulder, "Hey, what's going on with us?" Again, that soft word. Instead of meeting them with anger, that soft word with a question of, Hey, what's going on here, can often be that first interruption to say, you know what the other person feels cared for. [00:29:30] They feel seen. They don't feel attacked when they're voicing something. And it's enough to go, Oh, okay, this is the person that I fell in love with. This person still cares about me.

 

Laura Dugger: So there is some questions we can ask our spouse. And even you modeled kind of that soft tone. But I also appreciate in your book how you list questions that we can ask ourselves and help identify when we're most likely to experience conflict, even as simple as does fatigue play a role in our conflict. I would add to that, too. How many times do we get in a conflict because we're in a rush or we're hurried?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Oh, gosh. I mean-

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: I think back to the years when our kids were little and it felt like we were going in so many different directions all at the same time. And I know those are hard years.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: But even now, like we get a couple of nights, two, three, four or five nights of restless sleep or just not getting the rest that we want and you feel that fatigue. [00:30:37] And then you get into your work day and you're just, go, go, go, go, go. And then you see each other at night and you're still fatigued. But now you have the stressors of the day and everything else that comes upon you. And then your spouse asks you something and you're like, "Why are you asking me that?" So it's getting to that root of the issue of like, why am I not even sleeping well right now? What's going on there? 

 

And I love that you bring that up because fatigue is especially for those couples who do have younger children. We were having a fun laugh with our daughter last night because she used to try to come into our bedroom all the time. Eventually, Alisa and  I got to a point where just like... because we were so fatigued and we were fighting with one another all the time. We finally just got to a point where, like, "There's a blanket, there's a pillow outside our door. Don't knock on that door. You can sleep there, honey." [00:31:28] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: This is the one that's 18. So it's really funny to think back to when she was three or four. But we needed some way to interrupt her pattern so that we could continue to sleep and getting to that place. But being self-aware about how you individually do conflict changes how the two of you do conflict. 

 

You know, you bring up that question on fatigue. Sometimes it's just time of day. Sometimes it's you got like work deadlines and things like that. And the more that you can communicate when you struggle with your spouse, the more the two of you can get on the same team to say, Hey, I know this week of... 

 

I've got one coaching client. The husband's got board meetings the last week of every month. So we always know, you know, me being part of their team, that we do different strategies the last week of the month than the other three weeks for them to stay connected so that they don't fall into this place of roaring at each other.

 

Laura Dugger: That is so good and practical. And even the hormonal cycle, just if we're aware of that, you can go in with not only an understanding, but maybe a more strategic or active game plan. [00:32:35] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Correct.

 

Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life.

 

What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that's improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com.

 

Well, what are some other helpful tools that anyone listening can try out to promote a healthier conflict style and resolution?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's really important to change where the two of you have your conversations. You know, like a lot of couples will tell me in coaching, well, we fight about sex. And when I ask the question, where do you fight about sex, they say in our bedroom, because that's where we talk about sex is in the bedroom. [00:33:36] 

 

So I'll challenge them, "Get out of the bed if you want to talk about sex. Get out of the bedroom if you want to talk about sex. If you always find yourself grumbling about finances at the dining room table, then go sit next to each other on the couch." 

 

Changing up the location of where you have those repetitive arguments changes how the two of you interact with one another because everything's different about your environment. So making that shift, you become much more aware of everything around you and so you stay more present in the conversation. The more present you are, the less you go on autopilot. And so you have the ability to engage. You have the ability to answer. You have the ability to actually feel what's happening in the moment instead of just being like, "Oh, well, I know how this is going to go," and you throw up your hands and everybody does the same crazy dance.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: And one thing, too, it's how we position ourselves with our spouse. You know, when we're across from one another, we are typically in a fighting position. Our oldest, our son played football, so Alisa and I... he played D-line. [00:34:38] 

 

So we look at this as he was on the defensive line, nose tackle, and he was across from the offensive line. And his whole goal was to sack the quarterback or the running back or whoever had the ball, right, and cause disruption. But his linemen, his defensive linemen who were on the same team with him were shoulder to shoulder. 

 

And so how do you change that dynamic in your marriage? So if you're having the conversation around finances and it is at the dining room table and you are across from one another, is there a way that you guys can get shoulder to shoulder? Can you get on the same team? Can you see yourselves working together towards resolution with whatever it is in whichever pillar you're trying to strengthen? 

 

But instead of staring each other down, you're now going, no, we're shoulder to shoulder. And our goal is as a team, we're going to attack that problem together.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great visual. We have a common enemy and it's not one another. [00:35:40] I mean, ultimately it's Satan himself. And so I love that. 

 

Are there any other ways that we can be proactive to lessen the unnecessary and unhealthy conflict in marriage?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's really important, you know, if you start to see these patterns to get into this place to where you take inventory of yourself. What is upsetting to me? Why do I find myself in these repeated conflicts?

 

Tony mentioned the individual work that he did. Sometimes it's necessary when you see this... it's necessary to take the time to do the individual work, because a lot of patterns around conflict are patterns that are developed as you watch your parents as you're growing up, your childhood home. And you would reference this to some of the work and say that you've done in this place of what are those childhood traumas and whatnot?

 

And understanding what you witnessed, how your parents handled conflict, what the common things were that they fought about, what those inner vows were that you made to yourself about, like, I'm never going to fight like my mom or I'm not going to be like my dad, those types of things. [00:36:52] 

 

Often, all of that shows up in your marriage, whether you want it to or not. So spending the time, and I walk through this in the book, spending the time to do that work allows you to address those things and make changes based on knowledge and not just this gut reaction that you might have said when you were 15 and you're like, I'll never scream at a man the way my mom does. But then you find yourself doing it. 

 

Taking ownership of your life journey so that you're not a victim to it, but you're empowered to do conflict in a really healthy way because you have the awareness of where you've been.

 

Laura Dugger: Another piece of awareness, I think it's helpful, even in your first book, how you articulated the six pillars. So do you just want to give a quick flyover of those as well, because they are very much connected to conflict resolution.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. So the six pillars of intimacy are emotional intimacy. That's your verbal, nonverbal communication. We have physical intimacy, and this is your physical touch that is nonsexual: Hugs, kisses, cuddling, that type of stuff. It can lead to sexual intimacy, which we'll get to here in a second. [00:38:03] 

 

Next, we have financial intimacy. So this is us dealing with our money from putting a cash flow budget together every month to wills and trusts and everything in between that we have there. We then have our spiritual intimacy. How are we coming together around our shared beliefs and religious practices?

 

We have recreational intimacy. That is how are we having fun? What are the activities that we do together? These are the dates that we go on. But really, recreational intimacy is all about what do we do to have fun? 

 

And then sexual intimacy is what it is. And yet, Alisa and I expand that to not only be sexual intercourse, but it is romancing, initiating foreplay, and your sexual intercourse.

 

Laura Dugger: Those are so helpful, because I think as you're talking about growing in self-awareness, that could be a great place to begin and take inventory with where are we at in each of these pillars. [00:39:07] And then your book dives into all of this healthy conflict resolution for those.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. Because by default, when something isn't going well in a relationship, we kind of just say, well, the whole relationship's bad, right? It can be very difficult or challenging to say what's actually happening with us. Where the six pillars of intimacy framework has equipped so many couples around the world to be able to say, okay, it's not that we're all bad or it's all horrible. We're struggling in the area of our financial intimacy. And when you can name something, you can do something about it. And you feel empowered to take action around that and to resolve the conflicts there.

 

And that's where understanding the Six Pillars of Intimacy and being able to bring conflict resolution together it's a really powerful one-two punch, for lack of a better word.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Because like you said, Laura, you can take inventory on each one of those. We've helped couples look at them and just self-assess. From a one to a ten, where are you on each of these? [00:40:07] And which of the six or two of the six that are your lowest? Those are what we call cracks. Like you have cracks in these pillars.

 

And if you can identify those, how do you strengthen them? And then this way, because if the conflict is continuously in that pillar, let's just say your financial intimacy pillar has massive cracks in it and you're in conflict all the time around your finances, well then, okay, how are we going to be intentional and take action? So that way we can strengthen that pillar. So we can strengthen our financial intimacy.

 

What are the solutions? Instead of us pointing fingers at one another, what are we going to do together to come up with solutions? I mean, Alisa and I were in $50,000 of debt. We understand what it means to be in debt and not have bills coming with the big red letters all across the front of it and everything. Like you're past due. Like we've been there.

 

And yet when we sat down, we started to go, Okay, we can fight about this and we can continue to argue about this, or we can start coming up with some solutions so we can strengthen this pillar. [00:41:11] That's when our marriage began to transform. This is back in the day. But that was the beginning of us going, wow, we can do things together when we come up with solutions.

 

Laura Dugger: I guess just as an umbrella over this entire conversation, what scripture can you both point us back to that communicates timeless truths for managing conflict resolution in a healthy way?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: For me — we chatted about it at the beginning — I really do lean a lot on Proverbs 15:1. That soft answer turns away wrath. But I would encourage anyone listening, I've been doing... Girlfriend gave me a two-year study in the book of Proverbs. So every month I read through Proverbs.

 

You want to just spend some time getting right with biblical truths around conflict. Read through Proverbs regularly because there's so much language in there about foolish words and a foolish tongue and harsh words and all of this kind of stuff that you can't help but find yourself convicted by about every third scripture in Proverbs around conflict. [00:42:20] 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Mine's actually Ephesians 6:11. Because we got to put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. And I think we need to put that on at times and realize that we live in the physical world, and yet we're dealing in the spiritual world as well. And sometimes we're going to look at our spouse and we're going to try to blame them for everything and yet there is a devil that is roaring and looking and going back and forth to and fro on this earth, looking where he can come in and cause conflict, where he can cause pain and disagreement. 

 

And I believe if we do not put on that armor of God, if we're not in the word, if we're not praying, then we are susceptible. We are opening ourselves up to allowing this to come in and to take root into our hearts and into our spirits and our minds and take us off course of where God has called us to be when we stood before one another on our wedding day and said, I do.

 

Laura Dugger: You two offer so many resources that can help us do a deeper dive into this topic. [00:43:23] So can you share everything you have available for people to go to next after this conversation?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, I think, you know, specifically as we're talking about conflict, I did write a book called The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution. Subtitle is A Secret to Breaking the Conflict Cycle in Your Marriage. This is the book that came out of all of those coaching sessions.

 

I wanted to be able to equip people who, you know, for one reason or another might not ever show up in front of me in a marriage coaching session and wanted them to be able to say, Okay, this is like having Alisa sit down and talk with us and walk us through. I always say that's probably the best first step if you're dealing with conflict in your marriage is to get your hands on this book. And don't just hold the book, actually read it and consume it. It's got a fabulous reddish-orange cover. It looks great on a bookshelf, but it's actually a whole lot better when you've internalized it.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. And that's available everywhere, Laura. It is also in audiobook. So for those who are obviously listening to podcasts, just like Alisa and I, we do love to listen to books. [00:44:25] So we do have that. And Alisa and I both read that. So it's in our voice. 

 

It's the greatest and I believe the best first step for those who are impacted by conflict in their marriage and possibly even other areas of their lives to learn and to put the tools into their marriage tool belt to go, Oh, we have a tool now that we can use when we hit this place and when we hit this wall in our marriage. 

 

Also, if anybody would like, we have been podcasting now for over 14 years. You can find the One Extraordinary Marriage show on your favorite podcast app. Just search One Extraordinary Marriage Show and it'll pop right up for you there and just follow. 

 

We have many of episodes covering conflict to sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, in-laws, outlaws, vacation sex, you name it. We've talked about it. That is a weekly show that Alisa and I do and will continue to do because we believe that every time we get behind our microphones, we're impacting one marriage. [00:45:29] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Some of you might find that you're in a space where you need more individualized help. You've heard me mention throughout this conversation that I do offer marriage coaching. You can learn more about that at OneExtraordinaryMarriage.com.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm going to add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode to make it easy for everyone to take their next step. You two are already familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so my final question for both of you, Tony and Alisa, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So, for me, this is the philosophy that weaves itself through everything that I do personally and with my coaching clients. It's being intentional and take action. Nothing changes in your life or in your relationships until you start to take action.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Gosh, man, you took mine.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: You bumped me to go first. [00:46:29] 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: We're all about being intentional and taking action.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: What's your second one?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: My second one is what can I do? I think when we find ourselves in a place where many things are happening around us, a lot of times we want to point fingers. And sometimes we need to just look ourselves in the mirror and go, what can I do? That's a great step to take because you can now seek our Lord to give you answers, wisdom, knowledge on what can I do in this situation where I'm at and hear his prompting and guiding.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. Tony and Alisa, you're just both so in sync that you even shared the initial same savvy sauce. I love it. It was such a joy to get to connect with you both once again. So thank you for your hearts for marriage and thank you for being my returning guest today. [00:47:30] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: We're honored. Thank you for what you do, Laura.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. Thank you, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:48:34] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

 

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:49:33] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:50:38] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

226 Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay

226. Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Philippians 4:8 (NIV) "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."

 

Paul Asay has been part of the Plugged In staff since 2007, watching and reviewing roughly 15 quintillion movies and television shows. He’s written for a number of other publications too, including Time, The Washington Post, and Christianity Today. The author of several books, Paul loves to find spirituality in unexpected places, including popular entertainment, and he loves all things superhero. His vices include James Bond films, Mountain Dew, and terrible B-grade movies. He’s married, has two children, runs marathons on occasion, and hopes to someday own his own tuxedo. Feel free to follow him on Twitter @AsayPaul.

 

The Plugged In Staff gives families essential tools to understand, navigate, and impact the culture in which they live. Through their reviews, articles, and discussions, they aim to spark intellectual thought, spiritual growth, and a desire to follow the command of Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”

 

Plugged In Website

The Plugged In Show Podcast

Becoming a Screen-Savvy Family: How to Navigate a Media-Saturated World - and Why We Should

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. From your line of work, what patterns have you observed between children and technology?

2. Will you also share helpful truths from your book about the impact of our devices on our brain?

3. Are there any certain types of movies or apps or video games or social media that you say a blanket “no” to?

 

 Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Recommended Episodes from The Savvy Sauce on Similar Topics:

Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank

Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

Promoting a Family Culture of Reading with Megan Kaeb

Inspiring Your Children to be Readers Part 2 with Megan Kaeb

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

Paul Asay is my guest today. He reviews movies and television shows for Plugged In. He's also an author, and his latest book with the Plugged In team releases tomorrow. It's entitled Becoming a Screen-Savvy Family: How to Navigate a Media-Saturated World--And Why We Should. We're going to discuss some ways to become a screen-savvy family with young kids and teenagers, and even adult children. 

Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Paul.

Paul Asay: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I am thrilled to be here. [00:01:19] 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to get us started by just sharing an overview of your family and your current life stage.

Paul Asay: You bet. So I am a father of two. My son is 33. My daughter is 30. So what we're going to be talking a lot about today is stuff that I've dealt with for a number of years. The interesting thing about being a parent is you realize that even though your kids are adults, the parenting never really stops. It continues to go on, right? So that's kind of where I am.

I'm married. I live in Colorado Springs. Both of my kids live in town, so I get to see them a whole bunch, which is a joy. I actually have a new little grandbaby that I am doting on right now. So that's kind of where I am.

Laura Dugger: Oh, congratulations. That's such an exciting time.

Paul Asay: Yeah, we could spend the whole hour talking about my grandchild if you wanted to.

Laura Dugger: I love that. That is so awesome that that seems to be across the board that you just really do. [00:02:22] It is grandparenting.

Paul Asay: It really is. It truly is.

Laura Dugger: Well, also, I'd love to talk about your career because your work is so unique. So can you just describe what it looks like from day to day?

Paul Asay: You bet. As a movie reviewer and as a Christian movie reviewer, it is a very unique job. I didn't even realize that such a job existed before I took it. It is an unusual gig. It makes me feel a little guilty, honestly, sometimes because I watch movies and TV for a living. So it feels like when you're saying, Oh, man, I have to watch this TV show. It's a little bit counterintuitive for a lot of people who might listen to that. 

But honestly, the weekdays probably don't look that much different just day to day than a lot of other people. So I work pretty much a 40, 50 hour week and the hours are reasonably regular. [00:03:25] 

There are times in my working life where the hours can creep up just because there's so many movies to review, so many things that you have to put an eye on. And so that can get a little bit taxing. 

The one unusual part about it is that we do drive to a bigger city. I live in Colorado Springs. So we drive up to Denver probably every week, sometimes twice a week, sometimes three times a week to go see some advanced screenings of movies. And we just sort of go there and we take tons and tons of notes as we sit in these movie screens.

I have a light-up pen that I use to take notes. I make sure that I'm counting all the profanities. I'm making sure that I'm taking notes as far as I can in terms of problematic content that might bother some parents. And then, you know, that evening or the next morning, I sit down and I just start writing about it.

Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating, even just visualizing the light-up pen and the practical things that you're doing. [00:04:28] Truly, Paul, I am so grateful for your work because it benefits parents and families like ours to guard against consuming things that may not be good or healthy for us. 

But I think as you describe it, it leaves me prayerful for you. And I'm just so curious, how do you protect yourself with all of this violence and crudeness and even sexuality that you're exposed to when reviewing media for Plugged In?

Paul Asay: Well, that's a great question. And it is something that we take really seriously. Right? As a matter of fact, we're in the process of interviewing some intern candidates. That's one of the things that we talk very seriously with them about, because we'll be asking them to do a lot of the same stuff that we do. That ironically involves us going to movies, seeing TV shows, listening to music that we might say parents and families should stay away from. [00:05:32] So we want to make sure that they're prepared for that part of the gig. 

And how we deal with it, we have a very small staff and we've been working together for a while now. And the way that we do it is really threefold.

The first thing we do is we do quite a bit of research. We try to find out what we can be prepared for, what we might be expecting. Obviously, we go to the movies to see exactly what's in the movie. But usually, there are some clues online that we can sort of draw from and see what we might be in store for. 

And then we pray about it. We pray about it very sincerely. We pray about it very transparently to have some... I don't like to necessarily over-spiritualize it, but I do believe that often in our job, we do have sort of a little bit of protection that has been supernaturally given to us. And we pray for that every single time we go to a movie. [00:06:32] 

The next thing that really happens is in the present, when we're actually watching something, when I'm in a room with my light up and taking notes. The process of taking notes actually sort of helps distance us a little bit from the content that we're seeing on screen. Right. We know because we have this pad of paper, we have this pen. We know that we're working. We are not there to just let the movie wash over us. So our brains are fully engaged. We're leaning forward. We're taking notes.

That can really help us to sort of process what we're seeing as we're seeing it. It helps create a little bit of... I don't want to say a barrier, but I do think it sort of creates a little bit of a line between us that wouldn't necessarily be there if we were just watching a movie on our free time. 

The third thing, and this is actually one of my very favorite parts of the job, we get a chance to, the next morning, we talk about it. [00:07:33] We talk about it a lot. We have a really good staff that we work with. And I love talking about the movie that I just saw with some of my coworkers because oftentimes they will have thoughts that I didn't have. Sometimes if they see a movie, I might have a thought that they didn't have. And that sort of helps bring the movie to a more manageable size, helps us know how to think about it. In our jobs, that's kind of critical is to know how to think about these sorts of content issues.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I think you're even modeling a few tips that we can take as families.

Paul Asay: Yeah. I think that that's true. I mean, I don't think a lot of families are going to be bringing in a pad of paper and a pen. They're not going to be necessarily counting swear words. But I do believe that when you are a parent, when you are taking your family into kind of these realms, there are some things that you can be mindful of based on a little bit of what we do. [00:08:40] 

I think we can pray about it. We can research what is in a movie beforehand. There's a lot of really great sites out there that can help you walk through them. Plugged In is one of them. You can sort of be prepared for what you might see, and you can decide even before you go whether you should or not. But really, the key, I think, for a lot of parents is to talk about it.

Don't be afraid to bring up conversations with your kids after you see a movie. Talk about the issues that you see, what they loved about a movie, what scared them, what troubled them. Sometimes these movies can be a fantastic catalyst for parent-child bonding moments. Because we all love movies, we all like to talk about them. And it gives us a chance to maybe dig a little bit deeper, to talk about issues that might be a little bit ticklish that you might stay away from otherwise.

Laura Dugger: That's well said. From this line of work, what patterns have you observed between children and technology in general? [00:09:44] 

Paul Asay: Oh, man. I tell you what. The world out there is getting more and more technologically saturated, should we say. I think that we live in a very techno world where it is inescapable. So the challenges that parents have today when it comes to technology are exponentially harder in some ways than maybe my parents had when they were raising me. You know, one TV that was right in the middle of the living room didn't have very many channels. You just sat down, and so everybody knew what you were doing. 

Everybody has a screen in their pocket now. Everybody has access to so much stuff. So parents have challenges that are pretty daunting now. We really do our best where I work to try to help protect and help guide what that technology... the role of technology might have in a family. [00:10:51] We try to suggest some nice curbs that can help keep technology in its proper place. But we know that it's kind of an avoidable right now. Unless you just pack up your family and you live on 50 acres in Montana without cell phone service, it is going to be a part of your life. 

One of the things that I would go back again and again and again to the idea that the most important thing for parents is to talk about these things. Keep the line of communication open. To be mindful that your kids are involved with technology and to always talk with them about how they're using it, what they're seeing. And try as much as you can to make those conversations open, nonjudgmental.

It's important for parents not to freak out because that can really close the door on a lot of conversation. And I think it's really important that kids feel comfortable sharing what they're seeing, what they're quote-unquote learning online with their parents. [00:11:58] And the only way to keep those lines of communication open is to be calm, be rational. Keep your standards high but to not freak out if your kids accidentally see something that they probably shouldn't.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. [00:13:03] This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses.

Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated from Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

Laura Dugger: I'm just going to share two of the quotes from your book, and I'd love for you to elaborate on this topic. So the first one you write is, "The younger we are, the more likely it is that those stories will influence us." And then you also say a conclusion that less is better and holding off is wise. [00:14:07] 

Paul Asay: That, more than anything, is one of the keys for how parents can sort of navigate this curious world that we're in. And I realize that probably a lot of your listeners, they may have older kids. They might be 12 or 15, and so the idea of putting some of these rules in place now can feel a little bit daunting. Like the horse is already out of the barn, and you just got to corral it the best you can.

But when you have a chance, you need to be mindful that the younger your child is, the more influential these screens tend to be, the more influential that technology tends to be. Pediatricians recommend that kids under the age of two stay away from screens entirely. And that is because screens can really impact so much of how we learn as a young, young child. 

Our brains are so malleable, so sponge-like when we're young, and we are using that time to learn how to interact with people. [00:15:10] We look at faces. We look at the world around us. We touch. We feel. We taste. When we're young, this is how we learn.

Screens take us away from sort of that real-world environment, and it can slow down and really change how we interact with the real nuts and bolts of the world around us. Experts have said that it can impact sleep. It can impact our learning patterns. It can delay language ability. It can mess with our attention spans. There are so many reasons why screens can be really, really problematic, and the younger you are, the more problematic they can be. So it's really important to be very mindful of those screens. 

I know that as a parent, it can be really, really tempting. Your kids are going to go crazy sometimes, right? They throw fits. They ask so many questions. Sometimes you need to have a little bit of time to just get some stuff done that doesn't involve the kids. And so it can be really tempting to set them in front of a screen, to let them absorb a show. [00:16:19] 

Even if the show is really good, I would just put a word of caution in there because of how screens change how we learn, how we develop. Be very mindful of that as you think about just letting a screen be a babysitter. It's really hard.

It's so tempting, and I totally understand that every parent is going to do it probably a little bit, but just keep that in mind, that those screens change how you interact with the world. 

Now, the older you get, obviously, those screens continue to have an impact on your life, and one of the biggest questions that we get at Plugged In is, when do I let my kid have his own cell phone? When do I let my kid have that outside connection? That's a very tricky question. 

We have one person on our team who is sort of our tech expert who suggests the age of 13, not before the age of 13. But we also really feel that in the world that we live in, we really want to keep those decisions in the hands of parents. [00:17:25] So you just have to be mindful of how your kids utilize technology, how they might misuse it, and be mindful of that as you sort of weigh these decisions.

Laura Dugger: And another part of it that you really drew out in your book that I had not considered this important part of media, especially in adolescence, is the impact of music on our emotions. So can you share a bit, even from your personal experience or from your research in this area, why is music so powerful, especially in those teen and tween years?

Paul Asay: It's so critical. We're living in the Taylor Swift age, right? Taylor Swift is everywhere. There are so many teens, especially teen girls, who gravitate to her. And why is that? It's because they feel like she understands them. They feel like she is speaking for them in a way. And that is really the power of music. [00:18:25] 

We spend so much time talking about screens, and screens are super, super important. But when I look back at my own childhood, my own formative teen years, I really did lean into music. Music was a way that... the music I listened to helped me process the incredibly powerful feelings that I was going through. It helped me process breakups. It helped me process fear and insecurity. 

The thing about music is that it can also sort of encourage us to stay there. It can be not just a catalyst, not just a tool to help process some of these really powerful feelings that we feel, but it can bring us down.

We all know that sometimes when we listen to a song from our childhood, it can make us feel a certain way. We can remember exactly how we felt when we first heard that song or exactly how that song came into our lives during a really difficult moment in our lives. [00:19:32] We can feel that same way.

I know that when I was a kid, sometimes I would listen to songs over and over and over again because they reinforced those feelings. And at that time, I wanted that reinforcement. But that reinforcement, while it can be at times cathartic, it's not always healthy. You need to be aware that especially songs that have really dark messaging, songs that encourage self-harm or have real issues with body image, or even sometimes you hear a lot of songs that glory in money and sex and all these sorts of thing, they can...

Because music touches our hearts in a way that really nothing else does, it can make you think, yes, that sort of stuff is what I want. That is what I aspire to. It doesn't happen with every song, obviously. It doesn't happen with every kid who listens to a bad song, obviously. But it can influence how we think and how we feel. [00:20:43] And maybe that's the most critical part of this, is it makes us feel.

It short-circuits our thinking processes and makes us feel certain ways. When we're guided by our emotions, that can inevitably lead us down some kind of tricky roads.

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. That makes sense because on the flip side, the songs and hymns and spiritual songs that they talk about in the Bible, that's such a form of discipleship. And there's so much goodness about music sinking into our soul. But I love that word of caution that it has to be the right kind of messaging, the right kind of music.

Paul Asay: Yeah. Let me just riff on that because I think that's a beautiful example. When you're talking – when I go into church, that is my favorite part of the service. The ability to sing, the ability to join all these voices within the congregation. [00:21:43] These songs can make us feel closer to God. And that's a place where music is a beautiful thing. 

Music can be just amazing. It can take us to places emotionally that would just be hard to get to any other way. But because of that, when the messaging is not on point, it can take us down some really strange roads. And those transformative moments can transform us into people that we ultimately don't want to be.

Laura Dugger: Yes. So very important to be wise and discerning with the inputs. I'd love to hear eventually many more of the positives because there's so many things we can enjoy as a family or with our peers. But first, I think it is important to zero in on some of the alarming statistics or warnings that we need to make sure we're aware of. So will you share just some of the helpful truths from your book about the impact of the devices on our brain? [00:22:46] 

Paul Asay: Yeah, absolutely. There is more and more evidence that screens can impact us in really harmful ways. In many ways, I know that this is sort of a controversial word to use within this context, but it can bring all the harbingers of addiction.

An addiction therapist from England talked about how giving a smartphone to a kid is a little like giving them a gram of cocaine because of how damaging and addictive it can be. That is something that we should be really, really mindful of when we think about our kids. 

For those of us who had kids who had phones, we know that it can be the very last thing they look at before they go to bed. It can be the very first thing they look at in the morning. It is attached to their hands in ways where it's almost a part of their body and being. They can spend more time interacting with screens than they might spend interacting with real people. [00:23:52] 

And that is a really interesting dynamic that we have not seen in all the thousands of years that we've been around. That is a dynamic that is new — the ability to interact with screens so much. It really has become sort of a conduit, the primary way that so many kids and teens spend time with their own friends. So it's a very significant part of their lives. 

These screens have a way of moving us out of reality and into worlds of our own design. You can see that in the TV shows that we watch, the movies that we watch, the TikTok vids that we watch. We can escape from the real world. And these phones give us an opportunity to make that escape. 

In addition, when you're looking at social media, we can design worlds, shape worlds essentially that are to our own liking too. Everybody knows that society is probably as polarized as it has ever been. [00:24:54] It seems very, very difficult to talk with people who might disagree with you. And part of that, I think a large part of it can be attributed to the internet, technology, and social media because we sort of form these communities where everybody kind of sort of agrees with us.

Back in the old days when you sat down at a barbershop or hung out with friends, there was no guarantee that everybody would share your thoughts and feelings on everything that you think and feel. But now you really can select exactly what you think is right and spend time with people who think the very same things, which means that a lot of our preconceptions are no longer challenged. It keeps us away from thinking proactively. So there are so many different ways in which these screens impact us. 

Another really simple example that I see in my own life, I don't look at maps anymore. [00:25:53] I rely on my phone to tell me where to go. That I think is pretty interesting. You have these incredible tools that we use all the time. And in a lot of ways, they are incredibly helpful and incredibly useful. And yet, because of how helpful and useful they are, it moves us into a space where we're not necessarily thinking as much for ourselves. We lose our attention spans. We lean more toward feelings, less into thoughts. That can really impact how we process the world around us. 

There's a lot of brain chemistry that goes into it. But studies have shown that we tend to... nowadays, because of our reliance on technology, our limbic region of our brains, where sort of the emotional and behavioral responses lives, don't get nearly as much input from sort of the rational part of our brains because it takes more time and more energy. [00:26:59] And our phones and some of the technology that we use gives us an excuse to avoid some of those taxing, thoughtful things that our brains used to be so good at.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so interesting because it makes me think there are definitely wise times to abstain because of all these reasons. But there are also times to redeem technology, to redeem media. So if you're thinking of ideas of best practices that you've seen or recommendations you have for teens and families, what are some of your best ideas for redeeming media and technology?

Paul Asay: It's a great question. I think I would start by talking about some of the beautiful moments that technology can bring into your family's life. My daughter and I have always loved really terrible B-old sci-fi movies, the 1950s, 1960s sci-fi movies. [00:28:04] 

We have watched many of those, sat side by side from the time she was 14 to the present day. We watch those movies and we spend time just making fun of them and enjoying each other's company as we do so. When you think about Christmastime, there are so many incredibly beautiful traditions that many of our families have built up around Christmastime.

But for many families, a lot of it might be watching a special Christmas movie together. It's a Wonderful Life is one of my very favorite movies. A lot of families love Elf. There's a ton of movies that are navigable for families that can become moments of togetherness. And that can be one of the beautiful things about entertainment, that it brings us together. 

You know, we were talking a little bit about music earlier and I think about what I was saying, the transformative feeling of music in church. [00:29:04] That is another place where you feel connected. When you go to a music concert and you're with thousands of other people, there is something powerful about that moment.

And that power isn't all bad. There can be a real beauty in that power, that beauty of enjoying something communally. Entertainment so often can be sort of that communal structure, that thing that brings us together, just as stories always have. We resonate with the stories that we're told. They can help us see into the lives of somebody who's sitting next to you, who we might not necessarily understand that much about. But the stories that we share, the commonalities that we have, can help bring us closer together. 

So that's a really long-winded way of saying entertainment can be beautiful. And it's at its most beautiful, I think, when it's a communal thing, when it brings families and people together. [00:30:04] 

But obviously we need to be mindful of the amount of time that we spend with it and make sure that we keep it in sort of that vein where it's communal. When you talk about these phones, that's one thing that they have helped transform entertainment in. It becomes a singular thing. We watch TikTok videos alone. We watch whole TV shows alone. It becomes something that separates us instead of bringing us together. 

So when we're talking about families and how they should manage these screens that can be so powerful and so good in a lot of ways, sort of push away some of the bad elements for them, a couple of really simple things to think about. 

When you're watching stuff, try to watch it all together. This sounds really old-fashioned today, but carve out some time to watch a really fun family movie together. Carve out a space where you can come together as a family and enjoy something that you all enjoy that you can talk about afterwards. [00:31:07] And be mindful of those times when those screens can separate us.

I would really encourage parents, no matter how old their kids are, to carve out some spaces in their home that are phone-free zones. We don't bring the phone into the kitchen, for instance. Or your bedroom is not a place for your phone.

If you can, try to institute maybe a rule where they actually put down their phone maybe an hour or so before bed. Studies have shown that looking at a phone right before you go to sleep can really, really impact sleep patterns. So an hour away from a screen before you go to bed can be incredibly helpful in sort of calibrating our sleep patterns. So try to think about ways how you can actually remove that phone, remove that temptation from a child's bedroom. 

We always had a rule, no phones at the dinner table. We never used phones at the dinner table because that was a time for face-to-face communication, conversation, talking about the day, talking about issues that are really impacting all of us. [00:32:14] You need to have those face-to-face times. 

And as much as possible, make sure that those screens that are so much a part of our kids' lives are in your sight, within your purview. I think that those are good guidelines. I know that those can be difficult to adhere to in this media-saturated world. I know that it can be very daunting to take away phones even for a time from your kids because they love them so much. But as much as you can as a family, curb some of that time. Don't eliminate it but curb it so that you can spend some time face-to-face, eye-to-eye. I think that's really important.

Laura Dugger: I agree with you because that's training their affections to be more for relationship rather than training their affections to be for this thing they may naturally love but isn't the healthiest to binge on. [00:33:13] To kind of sum it up, what I'm hearing is themes of recommending togetherness and dialogue rather than separation or isolation or greedy consumption. 

But what are some proactive ways we can disciple our children towards healthy stewardship of technology?

Paul Asay: I think it's really instituting some of those really nuts and bolts basic rules. Later is better when it comes to technology. Try to keep your kids as free of screens for as long as you can. That will serve them well. Make sure that you keep some places in your house that are screen-free. Always, always, always try to keep the screens, the technology that we use within a relational framework, if you will.

We relate to screens a lot and we need to be mindful of how we relate to them because as we know, whenever we go overboard on anything, it can be really unhealthy. [00:34:21] A lot of people compare... and we do this in the book. We compare screens to sugar. The technology that we use can be sugar. And the younger you are, of course, the more sugar you want. You don't see that there's anything wrong with eating Cocoa Pebbles for every meal every day because our bodies crave that sugar.

The younger you are, the more you crave those screens. And as parents, just as we don't give our kids Cocoa Pebbles for every meal, we need to be mindful of keeping their screens in check too. That involves screen-free zones. It involves screen-free time. 

And most especially, something that you said, Laura, just now that really I want to drive home, the dialogue. Talking with your kids, there is no, no replacement for that. 

One of the things that I think as your kids get older, parents can feel like their children, especially as they get into their early mid-teens, they're not even listening to mom and dad anymore. [00:35:22] That is not true. That is categorically false.

Even when it seems like your kids are not listening to you, they are. Even though you have so many other influences coming into your kids' lives from friends to teachers to especially the screens that they watch, mom and dad are still far and away the most influential figures in your child's life. 

They are craving conversation.  They are craving dialogue. They are craving guidance to help them navigate this crazy, crazy world that we live in. They need it, they want it, even when they don't seem like they do. And so you need to be very, very mindful of keeping those lines of communication open. 

Talk with your kids. Talk with them about what they're seeing on screens. Talk with them about what they're reading on social media. [00:36:23] Make sure that you are in their lives powerfully because they need you. They need to have your influence in their lives. There is no replacement for a mom and dad. 

Even when the conversations are difficult, even when they're uncomfortable, come in and embrace those opportunities to talk because those opportunities to talk, those are what are going to be most impactful in shaping your child's life.

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?

Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us. [00:37:24] 

Do you have any questions that you suggest we ask our kids and even begin to train them to ask themselves?

Paul Asay: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it really begins with just making it as conversational as possible. You know, when you watch a movie, it's good to just sort of say, okay, what did you love about this movie? What did you like about this particular character? 

Talk with them honestly. Were there things about this movie that scared you? Were there things that made you worry or bothered you? Did some questions sort of pop up as you were watching these movies? Because a lot of times, I know in my own life, even now, even now as a movie reviewer, I will go to a movie and it will make me think about an issue that I hadn't thought about before or think about it in a slightly different way.

That's one of the beauties and powers of movie. But it can also be a stumbling point too if it doesn't have the guidance that a parent can bring into the conversation. [00:38:28] So really just talking naturally when you're talking about a movie, when you're talking about a TV show, to just ask some really basic questions because those questions can lead to other questions.

Another thing that has been surprisingly helpful in a lot of the lives of families that we hear from, and granted, the families we hear from use Plugged In a lot, they really take media discernment seriously. But because they have used our resource so often, sometimes they will actually go to their child. Their child will say, "I want to see this movie." And the parent will say, "Well, let's go ahead and look at Plugged In together and see what it says." 

And they'll read the review for whatever movie it is. And then the parent will say, "So what do you think? Do you think that this is a movie that's appropriate for you? Do you think that this is going to be something that you should watch?" And surprisingly, often, kids will say, you know what? I think I'm going to wait a year or two for this. I don't think that it's appropriate. [00:39:35] 

So sometimes even bringing them into the decision-making process when it comes to entertainment, when it comes to technology, you might be surprised at how mature your kids are actually processing the decision. When you give them a say, it could go surprisingly well. 

Now, let's be honest. I'm not sure if I would have been that kid. There are going to be kids who might go a totally different way. But at the same time, you might be surprised at how mature your kids are really dealing with it.

Laura Dugger: Also I'll just share a couple of things that I learned from you while reading these sections about interacting and dialoguing with our children. I love this one question. I'm just going to read it verbatim. You said, "What images or content bothered you or stayed with you?" I think that's so helpful. 

And then also you go into detail about running the media through the filter of Philippians 4:8. [00:40:35] So there's just all kinds of practical takeaways in the book. But also as I think of being parents, and we do have a responsibility to some point to protect our children. So are there any certain types of movies or apps or video games or social media that you just say a blanket no to?

Paul Asay: It's a great question. I would say there would be a few. And those would be entertainment options that are really predicated on sin itself, right? Technology that involves cheating. There's a lot of cheating apps out there or things that are designed to actually keep secrets from their parents. Those are things you want to stay away from.

Obviously, pornography is a huge issue. Anything that feels like pornography, you would want to stay away from. Things that are predicated on what is absolutely opposite of Philippians 4:8. [00:41:33] Whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely. You want to push away from those as much as possible. 

That said, one of our primary objectives at Plugged In is to keep the decisions in parents' hand. I think that moms and dads know their kids far better than we do. Moms and dads know their weaknesses, know what might be tempting, what might be really problematic or troubling, what might give them nightmares far better than we do. And sometimes some really difficult movies that you would say, Oh, I would be really cautious about this and we should be really cautious about it, sometimes those can hit people in a certain way that actually helps them more than you would expect.

For instance, horror movies are something that a lot of parents would say, no, we are not watching this. I hate horror movies. I don't want my kids watching it. And that is absolutely, absolutely right. [00:42:36] But Plugged In will probably not say never go see a horror movie because we have tons of stories of people who look at some of those movies with their really strong definitions of good and evil. The idea of this spiritual battle between light and dark that sometimes resonates with people.

I know people who have actually been drawn closer to Christ after watching a horror movie. And so entertainment is so much not only about what it is distributing to you, but what you bring to the party. And so it would be hard to give too many blanket answers. It's always so, so contextual.

Laura Dugger: That's very balanced response. I really appreciate that. Let's just begin to wind down our time with a story to illustrate why this all matters. So as your book had a few contributing authors, can you share one of the stories that one of the authors wrote about their dad when he was a residential assistant in college? [00:43:44] 

Paul Asay: Yeah, absolutely. His name is Kennedy Unthank and his father was a residential assistant in college. You know, he was very, very mindful of his entertainment choices. Right? And there was one moment, if I'm remembering the story correctly, where he refused to watch a movie, refused to watch a movie in college. And obviously, college is a time where if you're staying away from certain movies because it doesn't fit your moral structure, you're going to get some mocking for that.

Some people are going to judge you for that. And there was one woman who judged him pretty harshly for that. But the moment stuck in that woman's brain for 10 years and later they had an opportunity to connect. And she told him that that moment that she scorned him so much for she thought about every week of her life and it wound up being an instrumental moment in her life as she drew closer to Christ herself. [00:44:51] 

She used that moment that... you know, I am sure that Kennedy's dad was feeling really embarrassed and thought that there was nothing good that can come from it. But when we have those experiences, it's always planting seeds. We never know when we do good for Christ, how that is going to be impacting people who are with us.

Sometimes those seeds take a long time to germinate. And this was 10 years for this woman. But because of that act of courage by one of my co-workers' dads, that woman came to Christ. And that's an important thing for us to remember in our everyday lives.

Laura Dugger: That is so powerful. Paul, I've just enjoyed this conversation so much, but you have a lot to still offer. So if we want to continue learning more from you, where would you direct us to go after this chat?

Paul Asay: The best place is really to go to PluggedIn.com. This is a Plugged In project, as we've noted. Our staff is really passionate about teaching many a sermon, talking about technology, talking about how you can use it in your family's life for better, not for worse. [00:46:00] 

Obviously, all of our reviews are there, but we do a lot of talking on the blog. And we're able to let our personalities come out a little bit on that blog. And we also have a podcast that you can find on PluggedIn.com. We really enjoy the conversations that we have on our podcast. It is really free form. We all are very different. So that can lead to a lot of spirited conversations. 

But those are really healthy and fun and energizing. And I hope that the people who listen to our podcast enjoy them as much as I enjoy participating in them.

Laura Dugger: I love that. We will certainly link to all of those places in the show notes for today's episode. You may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Paul, what is your savvy sauce?

Paul Asay: It's a great question. I love that. [00:47:00] I'll be honest. I recently wrote another book sort of about my experience with depression. I've dealt with depression for most of my adult life. One thing that I have learned to do, one of the things that helps me practically every day of my life is I wake up and I think of three things to be grateful for, to thank God for. It can be really simple things. Hot water. When I take a shower, it's really nice to have hot water.  It can be for big things. How my parents raised me. The love of my kids. It can be those things that we can lean into. 

But I think when we start off our day showing gratitude, it changes the whole tenor of the time that we're dealing with so many problems, so many issues that come up with us every single day. To be grateful, to know that you have so many reasons to be grateful for. I think that that can really adjust the tenor of everybody's day. [00:48:02] 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you so much for being transparent as you share that. I just have experienced you as such a humble and gracious man to converse with. So thank you for teaching us how to steward this well in our own lives and help to steward this well for our family. I just appreciate you, Paul, and I want to say thank you for being my guest.

Paul Asay: Well, I have really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, Laura.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:49:04] 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:50:05] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:51:08] 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

225 Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley

225. Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Genesis 2:18a (NIV) "The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone."

 

Justin Whitmel Earley is a writer, speaker, and lawyer. He is the author of the award-winning books Habits of the Household and The Common Rule, though he spends most days running his business law practice. Through his writing and speaking, Justin empowers God’s people to thrive through life-giving habits that form them in the love of God and neighbor. His latest book, Made for People, delves deep into the profound impact of friendship and offers transformative strategies to combat loneliness. He lives with his wife and four boys in Richmond, Virginia, and spends a lot of time around fires and porches with friends. 

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How does becoming more like Jesus look similar to becoming more like a friend?

2. What are some questions we can ask our friends the next time we get together, in hopes of taking our conversation and connection to a deeper level?

3. Will you share your experience when you recognized friends are essential in the battle against evil?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Additional Recommended Episode from The Savvy Sauce:

90 Friendship with Drew Hunter

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

My guest today is writer, speaker, and lawyer, Justin Whitmel Earley. You may be familiar with his recent books, The Common Rule and Habits of the Household. Today, we're going to focus on the art and habits of cultivating friendship, which is the wisdom taken from his most recent book, Made for People. I also love the subtitle, Why We Drift into Loneliness and How to Fight for a Life of Friendship. [00:01:18] So I hope you experience the eternal value through this conversation now.

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Justin.

Justin Whitmel Earley: Thank you, Laura. I'm very, very glad to be here.

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by introducing your family to us, and tell us a bit about your journey that's led you to where you are today?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Sure. My family, me and my wife, Lauren, we've been married for almost 17 years now. 16, but going on 17. We have four boys, Whit, Asher, Colt, and Shep. They are 11, 9, 6, and 5 at the time of this recording. 

I'm a business lawyer by day, as well as a writer. The really short version of how I got there is, I actually felt called to be a missionary in China after I graduated law school, which was great. But then I had this calling experience in China where I felt the Lord actually pushing me to go back and live missionally in law and business. [00:02:24] So a big career change, but I felt like I was following the Lord into it.

I went really intentionally, but also quickly and intensely into law. I did really well in law school and got my dream job in mergers and acquisitions here in Richmond, Virginia, where I still live now. But I collapsed, I had a mental health collapse my first year of lawyering, where I was just becoming a mess of anxiety and panic and insomnia. 

This is a very condensed version of this, but it led to my first book, writing about spiritual disciplines and habits. Because in that year or so of struggle with mental health, I started to realize that while the architecture of my life was decorated with this Christian content of calling and my worldview, so to speak, was solid, the habits of my life, like the beams holding up that house, were just like everybody else's. [00:03:28] And it was only a matter of time before they collapsed. 

I started to realize that when your habits go one way and your head goes the other way, your heart will follow the habits. And I had really become converted to the nervous medicating lawyer through habit. That led to me really examining the spiritual disciplines and how much they matter, not just to our mental health, but to our overall walk with Jesus, our spiritual and emotional health. 

So that became a real passion of mine, thinking in terms of, how do I disciple the habits of my life to follow Jesus and to live missionally within law? That started my writing journey. There's more to that, but that's how I got into writing. And three books later, here I am today. I'm still a lawyer, as a business lawyer but I also write and speak and love, love doing that stuff.

Laura Dugger: Well, and a couple things there. I'm so grateful for your transparency, but also your obedience to step into this calling. [00:04:27] Because even completing this most recent book that's all about friendship, you share that one of your friends had encouraged you to be careful not to take on more responsibility than your life stage had space for. So as you're sharing your journey, I'm just curious, in this season of life with your four young boys, what does your personal writing schedule actually look like?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh, I love talking about that. My schedule now, it sounds... you know, when I try to say my job to people, it can sound overwhelming. But I now think in habits, and I no longer see schedule as a constraint to what would be a life of spontaneity.

This is how I used to think of it when I was in college and a missionary in China, and I hated structure. But now I really see it as the scaffolding on which you can build something wonderful. [00:05:27] So I think of my time and blocks and habits that are scaffolding to build a beautiful life.

For writing, I mainly think about my writing hour in the morning. I try to write when I get to the office at eight from about eight to nine. And sometimes that's actually writing. Sometimes that might be reading or researching. Sometimes it might be like editing an article or sometimes it might be true drafting. But before I start my law work around nine, I just generally... I would obviously say take or enjoy, like savor that hour where I feel like I'm allowed to write.

On the other hand, it becomes a real discipline when you're working on a manuscript because you get tired of thinking. You start to get a lot of self-doubt. Like, why am I even doing this? Nobody wants to read me. Like, who cares? Which is, by the way, spiritual warfare, I think, of the enemy talking to you and saying, you know, what you're called to do is actually not worth doing.

But during those times, it's a real rhythm of discipline to say, you know, no matter what, I'm going to write for this hour. [00:06:32] And slowly across time, you know, if you write an hour a day, you'll have a book or a couple by the end of the year. You know, if you read for an hour a day, you'll have a PhD in a couple of years.

It's just amazing things can happen in one hour every day when it's truly a habit that you put on autopilot. So that's what it looks like for me. Because most of the rest of my day is law and parenting.

Laura Dugger: Justin, I love that so much because it feels approachable if somebody else has that as a goal right now. I love you just cut through the excuses and built that as a habit. That's so great.

With your most recent book, I completely agreed with your theology on friendship. But I'd love for you to elaborate more on your claim from page 14 where you specifically write, "You need friends to be who God made you to be."

Justin Whitmel Earley: I've always sort of intuited that I would not be a whole person or a good person or even a safe person alone. [00:07:35] I've always sensed that I'm better around others and that I feel complete around others. I never knew how theologically accurate that was until I really started digging into what the Bible has to say about friendship.

Because I never really thought friendship was all that spiritual of a topic, honestly, until... Laura, honestly, it started to become so important in my life in my late 20s that I really started to think about it more carefully. I would say my favorite book of the Bible is probably Genesis and my favorite chapters are those early chapters. I think there's so much about who God is, who we are, what we were made for, what we weren't made for in those chapters.

One of the verses that I came to afresh was the idea that Adam was called "not good" because he was alone. There's all this kind of meaning that radiates from that verse. There's something to say about marriage. There's something to say about Adam's vocation and the world that he needed help. There's something to say about relationships, too. [00:08:37] 

When you look at that verse and think, Here's the setup of Genesis. God creates all these things and calls them good. And then He makes Adam in his own image, in the communal triune image of the Trinity, and He looks at Adam and says, this is before the fall, before sin has happened, that it's not good that Adam is alone. That "not good" is so striking in contrast with all the other good, good, good of the six days of creation.

It's odd, though, because Adam is with God. It's strange. Imagine yourself on a date with your husband and you say something like, "This is wonderful, except that I'm so lonely." Whoever's sitting across the table from you will be like, "Wait, but I'm here," right? And so it's interesting that God says... He's looking at Adam and says, despite the fact that I'm here with you, you have an aloneness about you. 

And that's what really struck the chord for me of saying, Oh, wait a minute. God made us such that we can't be who we were truly made to be until we have others around us. [00:09:43] We can't be who we're truly called to be, I don't think we can experience God the way that we're made to experience him until we experience him alongside others.

That is human community. That's marriage. That's family. But it's also friendship. It's the church. So it's just this deep abiding theme in scripture that we are not complete alone, which I think is, you know... this is longstanding orthodoxy. I'm not saying anything new, but I do think it's a minority report in our generation of Christianity. 

I think we've been influenced a lot by the Jesus movement and before the 70s, 80s Christianity, where there really wasn't emphasis on it's me and Jesus, quiet times are the apex of faith. And there's so much good stuff about that. I mean, deep personal relationships with Jesus and studying the scriptures, I will say amen to all day. It's just not the whole picture of the Christian life. And you can't be who God made you to be until you figure out who you are in community.

And that is what this Made for People book is all about. It's about understanding that at the deepest spiritual level, you need friendship. [00:10:55] 

Laura Dugger: Well, and you would say that that goes for all of us, regardless of life stage. I think a majority of listeners are parents with children still living in their home. So, Justin, would you agree that this does still apply to us in all seasons? And if so, what are some practical tips to make that happen even in those child-raising years?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh yeah. You know, I was sitting with a couple of friends on my back porch last night around a fire, and we were actually talking about this. We were talking about how lots of us growing up, college or like hometowns, high schools, it's just... it's a typical experience I think sometime in your teens or early 20s, where you realize the beauty of community.

And typically it's because something has stewarded you into that community. Maybe it was a great sports team, maybe it was a great church or good youth group, maybe it was a great college ministry, whatever it is. There are bright points in our life where we realize, Oh... you might not say it like this, but I think you would feel it. [00:12:02] "Oh, I was made for friendship. This is how life is supposed to be." And we look back at those times and we think, yes, yes, that's good. 

But what happens so often is your 20s slowly becomes this drift where you enter into what I call the current of American life, which is to become busier, wealthier people who used to have friends. All of us sitting around the fire last night, I think there was almost a 60-year-old, there was a 30-year-old, there was me, I'm 39, and then maybe there was a mid-40s. We had some age diversity, but all of us unanimously agreed that nothing is going to steward you into a life of friendship in our current American context.

It is absolutely a countercultural move if you want to swim against that current of loneliness. But we also all agreed that it was probably the most important thing in our walk with Jesus, as in, are we walking alongside somebody else, particularly in the parenting years? [00:13:04] And this is, I think, a lot of what causes people to suddenly realize that, is they get a couple years into parenting and they look up and they say, My life is so complicated and demanding. Like, I'm so tired. 

The last thing I want somebody to tell me is, like, you need to do something else, right? And so they're cautious or they might be, yeah, they might hesitate. Oh, well, you actually really need deep friendships in your life. But at the same time, they sense that. They sense, oh, I've lost something important.

I'm isolated, or I'm a person who used to have friends, or I have a lot of people around me, but nobody knows me anymore. Nobody's walking beside me. And I would absolutely look at anyone at any stage and say, Genesis is true. Still, you need other people to know God and to be who you were meant to be. But I would say particularly in the demanding stage of parenting, you need people walking beside you. 

Then if you agree with that... I think it's hard to disagree with it, but if you agree with that, then really we're just asking how, right? We're just asking, well, how does that actually work? [00:14:08] And that's where there's a couple simple habits. They do take intentionality, but they start to make friendship a real part of your life again. And those are worth considering. 

One of the habits is gonna be unsurprisingly from a guy who likes habits and schedules to really see the beauty of friendship that can grow through the seed of habit. And I tell people, think about devoting one of your 168 hours a week towards friendship. Really, that is not a lot. 

And I love this because everyone has an hour, even the most busy person. They could hand me their phone and I would open their usage stash and I would say, "Here, here, you were on Instagram for four and a half hours this week," or "Here, here, you watched half a season of Netflix shows."

There's time in our week where we're so exhausted that we just want to sort of veg out and be alone, particularly if you're somewhat introverted, which is totally fair. But friendship does take work. [00:15:08] 

I'd say last night, that was actually an interesting example. My wife and I were like, We have got a lot. I had a really early morning meeting. We had a bunch of stuff with the kids. But there was a hangout scheduled with a couple people. And I had to be like, "Man, I am actually kind of too tired for this." But on the other hand, every time I go to pray, I'm too tired to pray. Every time  I'm supposed to do a quiet time, I'm like, I don't want to do that. You know, all the most important things in life, you're going to feel some hesitancy, like, should I really do this? 

And I just want to say, friendship should be in that category of discipline where you say, you know, I'm going to do a coffee with this person each week, or I'm going to go to that accountability group or small group or whatever it is. And there's gradations. 

If you're not going to church, you know, there's your hour, start going. Start placing yourself in community. If you are going to church, but you're not going to the small group of the Bible study, then start going there. These are the ways we put ourselves in the way of community. But I think the richest version of this is to set up a rhythm.

I have this with my two best friends, Steve and Matt, where every other Tuesday night, we get together on our porch and just talk. [00:16:09] And it's just an hour or so, but it has such a wild impact on how I perceive myself. 

You know, when I'm able to confess to my friends how I really feel about life or what's really going on or the things I'm struggling with and I hear back from them that they're sticking with me, that they love me and God loves me anyway, there's this incredible thing that happens to you where you realize... and I think this is really important, Laura. So I want listeners to really think about this.

Through friendships, you realize that you can be fully known and fully loved at the same time. And that's why friendship is so important, because that is a way of re-believing the gospel again, because Jesus is the one who ultimately knows us fully and loves us anyway. 

And practicing that sort of full disclosure to be known in life with friends, even just through an hour of hanging out with people a week, to actually disclose your life to them and realize that you're lovable, even in your mess, is an incredible thing, because that's what we were made for. [00:17:14]  We were made to be fully known and fully loved. And an hour a week really gets you somewhere.

Laura Dugger: Again, this is so great. It's just a message of hope and people can problem-solve their own schedules to see how to begin these rhythms. 

Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

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To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

Laura Dugger: There's just countless benefits of friendship. But let's also discuss the responsibility that we have to also be a good friend ourselves. And as Christ followers, we're hoping to grow more into His image and likeness every day. So how does becoming more like Jesus look similar to becoming more like a friend? [00:19:14] 

Justin Whitmel Earley: That's such an important question to answer because it really gets at the nub of why I could claim that friendship is one of the most important parts of your spirituality. It's because Jesus said so. So John 15 is an incredible passage on this, and it's the place where Jesus says that I don't call you servants, for servants don't know what their master is doing, but I have called you friends because I've made known everything the Father has made known to me to you. And then He goes on to say that greater love has none of this, that someone lay down their life for a friend. 

Jesus is doing two incredible things there. One, He's describing His relationship to us as a friendship, like a shoulder-to-shoulder friendship where He's come down to us and disclosed everything to us.

And if you think about that, what is a good friend besides somebody who knows you fully, right? Like, who knows all your stuff and can laugh about it, who knows all your bad jokes but keeps coming to hang out anyway? [00:20:15] That idea like we disclose to friends, that Jesus has disclosed everything to us. He's made Himself vulnerable to us. 

And that's an ultimate sort of vulnerability, right? Because He went on the day after that John 15 speech that He gave to His disciples was the day of His crucifixion. So Jesus is ultimately vulnerable to us. And in that way, we are friends of God because Jesus befriended us, right? He is the ultimate friend.

When we think about the call of life, if you could sum it up, one way to do it would be to become more like Jesus, right? And if Jesus is the ultimate friend, then becoming more and more like Jesus necessarily means looking more and more like a friend. And what does that look like?

I talk about friendship in this book as one way to sum up the covenant kind of friendship that Jesus offers us is vulnerability and commitment, that we're actually willing to be fully known by our friends. And that's that first part of what we were made for, right? To be fully known. [00:21:18] 

Then the second part is to stick around, to be committed to covenant. That's the idea of saying I'll fully love despite the difficulties of it, right? So imitating Jesus's fully knowing nature and fully loving nature, that's I think where we become an echo of the gospel to each other. And that's why... You know, this isn't like a good idea in an age of loneliness, though it is, and America is suffering from a real epidemic of loneliness. It's not just a way to be happy, though it is. All the stats show that like real contentment in life, real happiness comes from relationships.

More than any of that, Laura, it's about looking more and more like the Jesus in whose image we were made. So if he's a friend and we're supposed to look more like Him, we got to look more like friends. And in that way, practicing friendship is a way of sanctification. It really is a way of becoming more like Jesus. That is why it's not just necessary, but also beautiful. 

Laura Dugger: Justin, I appreciate how you draw out different parts of Jesus as our friend. [00:22:21] I think of Him as the most inclusive friend. But then also, just what you had drawn out in the book about Jesus cooking for his friends and the fire being involved, is there anything else you'd like to add about that?

Justin Whitmel Earley: This would be hard to sum up in a podcast, but if people read the book, Made for People, I spend a later chapter describing Jesus' interactions with His disciples after He's resurrected and He meets them on the beach. It's just a really wonderful, wonderful passage to reread in the context of friendship. There's a lot of ways to read it, but one way is a friend that they thought they had lost who they meet again.

And they get one more grand day of hanging out with Him where He cooks for them and He talks with them, He counts fish with them. All these beautifully mundane things that we would do on a reunion weekend with our friends of rehashing old stories, of saying intentional words, of cooking for each other. [00:23:22] 

I just think it's so good for us to read the Bible like normal people and actually imagine it as a story that happened. Like there was a man named Jesus who cooked fish for His friends on a beach one morning. And we can learn so much from just the little ways He interacts with the people that He loves.

In a lot of ways, this book, the grand theme is trying to get you to be a little bit more like Jesus by being a little bit more like a friend. Because I think that's an aspect of His divinity and beauty that we often overlook. So I just encourage anybody to go read that chapter and see what you make of that story of Him cooking for His friends on the beach.

Laura Dugger: I echo that recommendation. Even just that simple takeaway, I think it just struck me of how hospitality is such a pleasurable part of friendship. And we really get that from our creator who when He was walking on this earth, He cooked for His friends. And likewise, we get to do that and share with them. [00:24:24] 

But then also taking all of this information and then thinking as we are disciple-makers, we hope to pass this all along to our children as well. So Justin, what are some practical ways that we can make our homes into the schools of love that you talk about in your book?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Well, my book Habits of the Household, which came before Made for People, is full of all these sort of different thoughts on that. So I'll give you some thoughts, particularly on this part of life, about showing our children friendship and teaching them friendship. But you're welcome to push into any other parts because I love talking about parenting.  I just love being a father. I love children, so happy to go into that. 

But one of the things, again, actually, Laura, that we were talking about last night, I was sitting with the three people who were joining me on the porch. We're all either educators, principals, or teachers. And we were talking about how important it is to help children learn as young as possible the habits and virtues of friendship. [00:25:31] 

And I think typically we're trying to teach children the virtues of it. I mean, typically we're trying to teach them to be nice to others, to be honest with others, to play, to talk, to greet, all these things. But I think increasingly modeling the habits of friendship is really, really important. It's becoming increasingly easy to go through school focusing mostly on your education and mostly where you'll move afterwards and not necessarily being stewarded by your parents into really meaningful social activities.

This can look like a lot of ways, but my kids play sports not because I think that they're going to make millions of dollars as professional athletes, but because it's an institution of intertwining them with teammates. And we approach it as such. 

I don't try to overburden them with travel teams and schedules and lessons to get them to be an incredible athlete as much as I say, "You support your friends here. Be with them in their wins and their losses. Hang out with them before and afterwards." [00:26:35] My kids are young, in between 5 and 11 now, but as they get older, it'll be like, Oh, we go to youth group, not just because I want you to learn theology and more Sunday school answers, though I do, but because friendships are there. I want to put you in the way of people. 

I will not give my sons smartphones until probably either 16 or 10th grade around there because I want to protect their formative years of embodied interactions so that they start to learn what it's like to just go hang out with your friends, what it's like to just be in a room and have nothing to do but talk to each other or play this game or that game. I think there are a lot of ways where parents need to think hard about modeling friendship.

My son Asher came to say goodnight on the porch last night, and I love that. He came to say goodnight, but he saw that I was hanging out with friends. He sees this often. [00:27:35] 

I'd like to think that he's going to grow up thinking, "Oh, this is what a man does. This is what a father does. This is what his mother does. This is what people, this is what Christians do. They hang out in deep conversation with other people." 

But also I want them to see that. But I also want them to be stewarded into those kinds of interactions. Again, like the theme of this book, no one is going to do that for you. The American current is vicious and roaring towards loneliness. 

You and your children will become isolated individuals with all sorts of mental and physical health problems if you do not fight against the current of loneliness and fight for a communal life. And part of the way we do that is we intentionally steward our kids into those kinds of interactions.

Laura Dugger: I'll just share one of my struggles with this. I love friendship, and I do crave that time with other peers and adult conversation, ideally that's uninterrupted. [00:28:36] Our four daughters are between four and a half to 10. I can struggle with guilt if I am taking away time from being with our daughters to then be with my friends. Do you have any wisdom to share with that?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can feel this too. I definitely think, in my experience, moms are a little bit more prone to this. I think dads can generally be more comfortable with the idea that, you know, I'm out working, or they don't need a ton of time with me. They need quality time at predictable rhythms. 

But I will say I too experience this, particularly if we have a stretch of nights where we're at a church meeting one night, they have a sports practice the next night, and then we have a friend hangout the third night. And I'm like, Oh, for three nights in a row, we've either done babysitters or somebody's, you know, leaving. And I think those are times where I see, Oh, yeah, my schedule is interrupting our family rhythm. [00:29:40] So I'm familiar with the feeling.

But when I look at times like that, I would probably say, what are the meetings or the activities that we can cut before I cut time with friends? Because it's sort of like... I would think of it like church. Like, I would never say, you know what? I need a little bit more time with my kids this week, so I'm just going to skip church. No. We go to church together. That's a family rhythm that's good for us, good for the kids. Despite the fact that we're going to be separated into different Sunday schools, and I'm not going to be with them, it's actually really healthy for them. 

I think probably what I know, at least that moms around me experience in my friend circle, is I constantly hear them say, you know, when I actually discipline myself to go hang out with other people or get a weekend away with the girls, I come back a better mother, a much more present mother, a much more caring mother, because I've had that really essential, important adult interaction time. [00:30:42] 

I know Lauren thinks this, and I know I think this. And I think lots of times we just need that encouraging reminder of one of the things your kids need from you most is for you to be a healthy communal person.

They don't need your constant hovering presence. They need your solid, quality presence of a person who is walking alongside other people. And I think it's just really helpful sometimes to say, Oh, that's worth being away for. You know, I'll come back. This is just an evening away or this is just an hour away. Kids really, really need that. 

I do think this is a whole different discussion, Laura, but we are trending generally in America as parents towards over-prioritizing the amount of time we spend with our children. There's actually a great book by Jonathan Haidt coming out about this this year, just the ways we don't take more risks letting our kids develop alone. [00:31:40] And that might be playing into it.

But at the risk of giving a really long answer here, I think it's totally understandable to feel that guilt, but it's really important to realize you need this to be a good mother and father. So go embrace friendship.  Your kids will be better for it.

Laura Dugger: Well, sincerely, thank you for that. I feel like one of my friends was saying when we were spending time with Chris and Rachel Allen, they said, how God oftentimes will speak to us through our thoughts, that's the indwelling Holy Spirit in us.

And even as you were sharing, and I feel like what you shared was truth, and some of this guilt is the false worldly guilt that's not true. And what I sense, I'm assuming it was the Lord speaking it to me, so I want to share in case this encourages anyone else. That I felt He was saying the gospel is for you too. And just how you're sharing, friendship is part of the gospel, and it models the gospel, and that is for each of us, whether we are a parent or not. [00:32:44] So thank you for that.

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh, what a good word. I'm glad. Thank you for listening and speaking and listening into what the Lord is saying. I think that is true. I think it's especially important for any of us when we sense guilt, right, when we say, "Oh, I would do this, except I feel guilty about something," to do what you just exemplified, Laura. Be quiet for a second and lean in and just ask the question, says who? Whose voice am I listening to that's making me feel guilty about that? Because that's not how God talks to you, right?

If you're feeling guilt, that's probably a good sign that it's somebody else's voice in your head. If you're feeling conviction or repentance, that very well may be from the Holy Spirit. But if you're feeling this sort of vague sense of, "I'm not living up or I can't do that," I encourage people to just pay attention. Whose voice is that in your head? [00:33:44] 

Because lots of times with stuff as important as friendship or other spiritual disciplines in our life, we're so good at making excuses about why right now we can't actually do that. And the enemy loves that stuff. He loves to whisper little excuses in your head. Like, you don't need to wake up early to read the Bible. You're tired. You can skip church this weekend. You don't really need to go hang out with that person. It might be awkward anyway. And those are precisely the things that God wants us to do to encounter Him and others. So listen to those voices.

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content.

And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.

Well, Justin, intentional questions just seem to be one really practical way that we can take conversations and relationships into a much richer and more enjoyable realm. [00:34:55] So I know that you mentioned some in your book, Made for People. Can you share just a few questions that we can ask our friends the next time we get together in hopes of diving a little bit deeper?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh, yeah. I love that. You know, some fun ones that I really like. What expression is God making when He looks at you right now? What do you think God looks like when He looks at you? Because sometimes I ask you, how's your walk with the Lord or how's your prayer life been? I think it says a lot about people when they say, what does God look like right now? 

One of the things that I just really encourage people to try to do is to be comfortable with being awkward. You know, there's always a turn in conversation where you get from talking about the weather or it's just so easy to talk about other people or public events. But the real mature relationships start to confess, divulge, really talk about themselves. And a fun way to get talking about your spiritual life is, what does God look like right now when He's looking at you? [00:36:00] 

Another question I love to ask my friends is, what are you worried about when you lay down at night? What do you think about? Because I know for me, if you're asking, how are you doing, I'm just sort of talking generalities. But when I lay my head down at night and the thoughts start scrolling, like all the insecurities, "Did I do enough today? Did I finish it? What happened with that?" That's just a place for me that is one of the truest versions of my mind is what's going through my mind as I lay down at night. And so I like to ask other people, what are you thinking about or what are you worrying about? 

Another one is, what are you hoping for? I love asking people, what are you hoping for? In this season, maybe in a new year or in the summer, whatever season you're in, gosh, I love hearing what my friends are dreaming about and what the good of their marriage they're hoping for or what the good of their family is or what refuge they need or what they're hoping for. So yeah, their thoughts, asking about God, what they're hoping for. I love all these questions. [00:37:04] 

Laura Dugger: Well, Justin, you share various powerful ways that God has come to you throughout your life in the form of a friend. Will you share your experience when you recognize that friends are actually essential in the battle against evil?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Yes. This is a story I tell in the last chapter of the book. I would encourage people to read it at length, but I'll give the short version here. I woke up one morning to a phone call from a friend telling me that a mutual friend was stuck in a hotel in Mali, Africa.

He was traveling for work and that terrorists had overtaken the hotel and were going around. They had shot the guards and they were going through the hotel, trying the rooms of guests and shooting unarmed guests. And my friend had been able to email us saying, "Pray for me" because the Internet had stayed on in the hotel. [00:38:02] 

My other friend saw it first. He called me, woke up, and we all... I just remember walking down to my living room that morning and laying face down and just starting to pray for, plead for the life of my friend. You know, it was one of those moments where all over Richmond, there were people like me and my other friends just, you know, on their knees on the ground praying for my friend.

We would later find out that at that time he was on his knees leaning up against the barricade he had built against the door as he felt a gunman try the knob. Praise God the barricade held. And when he did finally open the door, it was to a UN special ops rescue team that led him out of the building.

And so, yeah, it was just, you know... obviously a really difficult time for all of us, but it was also a wonderful time when he came home weeks later and we threw a big party at my house and celebrated that he had been snatched from the jaws of death. [00:39:04] 

That story for me... you know, for him, it's his own story in so many ways, right? There's obviously so much trauma and fear and difficulty there. From my side of the story, the Lord has really used it in my life to show me a lot about friendship. Not just that it's true when, you know, one friend is in trouble, we all go down on our knees together. But also it's become a spiritual metaphor for me because I think about my friend leaning up against the door where evil wants in. And that actually is what life is like.

You know, we're told the enemy prowls like a roaring lion. God tells Cain that sin is crouching at his door, but that he can overcome it, right? But thou mayest overcome it is one of the neat Hebrew translations. [00:40:08] I think so often about how we need other people in our life to beat back the heavy, heavy evil. We can't do that alone. We can't survive moments like that alone, physically or spiritually. We are in need of rescue. And obviously Jesus is the ultimate one who snatches us from the jaws of death. He's the ultimate covenant friend who comes for us.

But I think about this often as a metaphor for how we are Jesus in other people's lives, how we're commanded to go be like Him, to go to our friends in times of need and say, "I'm with you. I'm praying for you. You're not alone." It's a difficult story in a lot of ways, but it's been such a meaningful thing for the Lord to give in our lives, to show us the glory and the necessity of His friendship and ours. So I always remind people, you know, Jesus is the ultimate covenant friend. [00:41:10] You know, receive his friendship and then go extend it to the world. That is what being Christ-like is like.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so powerful. Just wrapping up this whole conversation, you can refer back to Habits of the Household or Made for People, but what is the one habit you want to charge us with when we complete this conversation today?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Ooh, well, my favorite habit to recommend to people is scripture before phone, because it is probably my favorite habit. That's for a couple reasons. It's the simple practice of saying, before you open your phone in the morning, read some scripture first. I, without irony, do it on my drive to work. I ask Siri to open the Dwell app, which is a Bible-reading app, and I listen to it on audio. [00:42:09] 

So it's not to say you can't use your phone to read the Bible, but it's this idea of keeping emails or social media or news or updates, just all the things that might say, Hey, this is where you're going to get your love or your justification today, like how much you're going to get done or how to live up on social media or what's going on in the world.

There's so many ways our phone tempts us daily to say, this is what's important about today. That's because phones are incredible habit-forming machines, right? The designers of our iPhones, as useful as they are, know the power of habit.

I like recommending this habit because it's sort of one of those keystone habits. In it is the theory of habit of saying, no, make a habit to look for the love of God before you look out to what you think you need in the world so that you can... once you experience the love of God, now you know you can go to the world to give it. [00:43:09] You're not going to the world to look for it anymore. That order makes all the difference. 

And people might say, well, yeah, but it's such a small habit. How could it actually matter? And I say, try it. Try it for 30 days. It is one of those things that, for me, is an example of how some of the smallest changes in our lives have the biggest effects. That's why I love recommending this habit because it opens the whole theory of that you should be discipling your life to Jesus through habit. Your habits are not neutral. Your smartphones are not neutral. The American culture is not neutral. They're all trying to take us somewhere. And we should be fighting to say the current I swim in is of discipleship to Christ.

That's going to look like swimming upstream to the world. That's going to look like moving against everything else. But that's what it means to follow Jesus. That's a very dear habit to me, and I'd recommend anybody try it.

Laura Dugger: Well, thank you for sharing. And this has been such an enjoyable conversation. [00:44:08] So if anyone wants to follow up after this chat and learn more from you, where would you direct us to go?

Justin Whitmel Earley: My website, justinwhitmelearley.com. And if you Google "Justin Earley Author", you'll find the right spelling. If you can subscribe to my email list there, and that is... I always tell people the best way to hear more, learn more. I send emails out a couple times a month just with thoughts or with book ideas or new books or things that are coming out. It's a great way to follow along. 

I'm also fairly active on Instagram, posting videos about friendship, about parenting, about habits. I have my own set of habits around how much is too much on social media, so I'm careful with that. But I am active on Instagram if people want to follow along there too.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. Justin, you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:45:10] And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Justin Whitmel Earley: My savvy sauce is that habits won't change God's love for you, but God's love for you should change your habits. And I hope that helps.

Laura Dugger: I love that so much. This time has been such a gift. So I just want to personally thank you for being so disciplined to take that hour to write this book. It was so beneficial. Upon completing it, first of all, I put it over on my husband's bedside table because I knew he would enjoy it next after me.

Justin Whitmel Earley: I love it.

Laura Dugger: But it also gave me permission to intentionally schedule in friend time. And so even when that felt luxurious, it just instantly paid off after being inspired by your book. So thank you for your inspiration and your reminders. And thank you so much for being my guest today.

Justin Whitmel Earley: You're so welcome, Laura. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. [00:46:10] Thanks for your podcast and everything that you do.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:47:12] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. [00:48:14] We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:49:16] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery

*DISCLAIMER* This interview includes some adult themes and is not intended for young ears.

 

Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Philippians 2:4 (AMP) “Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others."

 

Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker and the president/co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, ministry dedicated to reclaiming God’s design for sexuality.  Every Monday she hosts the podcast Java with Juli, where she and a guest sit down for coffee and honest conversation about relationships, sex, intimacy, pornography, singleness, and God’s design for our sexuality.

 

Juli is the author of ten books, including Finding the Hero in Your Husband, Passion Pursuit, and Rethinking Sexuality.  She and her husband Mike are the parents of 3 sons; they live in Akron, Ohio.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

 

Dr. Juli Slattery’s Website, Authentic Intimacy

 

Java with Juli Podcast

 

Books by Dr. Juli Slattery:

Passion Pursuit

Rethinking Sexuality

Pulling Back the Shades

Sex and the Single Girl

25 Questions You’re Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy

Surprised by the Healer

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfaeastpeoria.com 

If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release, so here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.

But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:22] The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit.

We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs. 

We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. [00:02:22] Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.

And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. 

My guest is psychologist and founder of Authentic Intimacy, Dr. Juli Slattery. 

Here's our chat.

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Juli. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, thanks so much for having me again. 

Laura Dugger: And for those who missed our previous episode, can you give us a glimpse of who you are and what you do?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I'm a wife of 25 years, mom of three sons who are quickly leaving the nest. I'm a clinical psychologist. My work these days is I run a ministry called Authentic Intimacy, and our vision is reclaiming God's design for sexuality. That practically looks like just helping people sort through where is God in the midst of what I'm struggling with, in my marriage, in my singleness, with sexual temptation, with the confusion of culture. [00:03:23] So really integrating God's truth with just the issues that we deal with everyday related to intimacy and sexuality.

Laura Dugger: Well, it's a very important work that you talk with people from all over the world about this topic. So from your wealth of knowledge in this area, what themes are you starting to see repeatedly?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, there are some themes that we've seen really since we started this work in 2012. And those probably won't surprise anyone. But there are things like how do we overcome differences in marriage related to sex? What if I have no sexual desire or my husband has no desire? We talk a lot about pornography and addressing that in marriage and just family. 

Sexual abuse recovery. Probably about one-third of women have had sexual trauma in their past and about one out of every six men. And so this impacts a lot of people. And so how do you heal from that and how that impacts intimacy? [00:04:27] 

Then in today's day and age, we're also getting new questions just related to gender fluidity and just redefining marriage. And what does the Bible have to say about all those things? 

So I'm definitely not bored. My job definitely keeps me on my knees and in the word of God and just really trying to give people biblical guidance through the kinds of issues we're facing today.

Laura Dugger: Yes. Even through your podcast, which is just one part of Authentic Intimacy, you have so many episodes. It just seems you never run out of ideas related to this topic. Is that right?

Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. You would think that we would. We've been doing the podcast now for, I think, like five years and we have over 250 episodes.  But we don't run out of topics because people are just grappling with these issues. 

Sometimes we'll just teach through a topic, but often we'll have a guest on that shares a story of just where God has brought healing and redemption. [00:05:29] Sometimes we just talk about our relationship with the Lord. I wanted all to go back to that. So keep going as long as the podcast is helping people and ministering to them.

Laura Dugger: Well, it sounds like it definitely is. I personally love the local church. I'm sure you do as well. So I hope that we're all doing our part both to build it up and protect it. What do you see the church getting wrong and getting right on this topic?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, you have to almost look at it from a historic point of view. Because I think most of us who have grown up in the church, any form of church, would probably say that my church growing up never talked about sex. And if they did talk about sex, it was awkward. Maybe it was with a very harsh or judgmental tone. Or it was a male pastor telling the wives that this is important in marriage. 

So we have a lot of baggage, I think, from the ways that the church has not addressed sexuality. [00:06:31] Or if we have addressed it, it hasn't been with God's heart. And so there are a lot of people that have a history with the church related to sexuality that actually makes them feel like God is the last place I want to go to talk about sex. And so we have a lot of undoing to get this right, I think, in our current generation. 

I'm glad to see that churches, by and large, are starting to address the kinds of issues that people are struggling with without making them feel shame. For struggling with pornography, for questioning things around gender, for brokenness in marriage, or sleeping around promiscuity, all those things that traditionally you never want to admit in a church, I think we're now starting to get realistic about the fact that this is where people live today and they need practical help. 

But there's also a really big divide happening in our country and also in our churches.[00:07:31] You know, is God primarily a God of love who just embraces wherever we are, allows us to stay where we are? Or is God more a God of truth that has these standards of righteousness and we have to live up to these standards of righteousness? 

There's a lot of sorting through those issues right now in the Christian church of how do we walk with both the truth of God and the grace of God. That's really my heart is helping churches and just individuals grapple through that tension.

Laura Dugger: I like how you said tension there because it's not just an easy one-time sermon that will solve all the problems, right?

Dr. Juli Slattery: No, not at all. Actually, one thing that I'm really encouraging churches to adopt is more of what I call a sexual discipleship model, where they're approaching issues of sexuality with a discipleship mindset. And discipleship is lifelong. It's this goal of maturity that we're all walking towards. [00:08:31] And it means really authentic relationships, doing life together, and dealing with the real-life issues as they happen. You know, let's respond to what just happened in the news or what's happening within our church body, instead of it feeling like sex is always talked about just from like a high and lofty perspective.

Laura Dugger: That's really good. Changing gears here a little bit, as believers, I think that we should have the most fulfilling sex lives in our marriages because we are intimately connected as well to the creator of intimacy. So are there any sexual pleasures or benefits you think believers are missing out on just because of a lack of education or maybe a belief in anything short of God's truth?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I see that all the time, particularly in a couple ways. First of all, there are a lot of Christians that carry shame around related to their sexuality because of things they feel guilty about that they've done in the past or they're currently struggling with, because of things they've experienced or even religious teaching that made them feel that sexual desire and pleasure is wrong. [00:09:42] And so I think that's one big barrier to overcome.

I think particularly with Christian women, like how do I enjoy this in my marriage when I feel like I've grown up thinking this is wrong and my desires are wrong? That's a barrier. But then I think also we have a very superficial, even within the church, understanding of what sexual desire is supposed to be.

I think we buy the Hollywood image of it that the best sexual pleasure is going to be like with two perfect bodies and it's on the honeymoon and it's just this natural ecstasy that happens. That's just not the reality for married couples. It doesn't usually happen right away where sex is fun or pleasurable. It usually takes work. There's obstacles to overcome. Our bodies are not perfect.

And so I think because we buy that lie that the greatest sexual pleasure is kind of this ecstasy of a moment, we miss the kind of pleasure that can be built on a journey over time, even as we together work through obstacles. [00:10:52] There's a much more profound intimacy, vulnerability, and pleasure for couples that will hang in there and be on that journey together instead of giving up when things don't go well right away.

Laura Dugger: You're right because doesn't the research validate that couples who have been together longer are more satisfied, even comparing it to Hollywood, things we wouldn't expect if they're having health issues or they've added children to the marriage, and yet there is this mystery of they're enjoying it more later?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, that's what the research does show, that the most sexually satisfied people are people that have been in a long-term committed relationship. Interestingly, those that have a strong faith, like a religious faith, are more likely to have a good sex life as they age. So, yeah, it bears out God's design. But we don't hear that very often. We're just bombarded with messages that sex is all about how it feels in the moment and how your body looks and how much you're compatible with each other but that's not what the research shows. [00:12:01] 

Laura Dugger: Okay, so now with that foundation, what do you recommend for all of the couples listening to experience more sexual pleasure?

Dr. Juli Slattery: One thing I'd recommend is really to take a long-term view of it. Think of it like you have this project that you're working on as a couple. Sometimes I'll talk about it being like a box of Legos. 

When you open up a box of Legos, you have a really cool design on the outside of the box, but you don't open up the box to get a finished product. You have to put all the pieces together and follow the directions, and it might take you a long time to build it. With Legos even, once you build, you tear it down, you build again.

Sex is a lot more like that. It can be very confusing, frustrating. It can cause conflict in your marriage right out of the gate or as you encounter difficulty. But if you continually remind yourself and your spouse that God has actually given us this gift so that we learn to love more intimately, so that we're learning to forgive, we're learning to be unselfish. [00:13:05] If you can have that perspective, then really any obstacles you have to overcome, whether they're emotional or physical or difference in desires or whether there's pornography or things like that that you need to work through, you see that even in the obstacles, God can be doing something really good between you.

Laura Dugger: I think there's two important points there, what you're talking about. First, that there likely will be obstacles at some point and that there's hope in that. Second, I've heard you speak with that Lego example before. I think it's such a great example. 

I remember you saying if you opened it up and you expected that picture that's on the box, and then you open it up and all these pieces just fall out, you'd be very disappointed.

Dr. Juli Slattery: For sure. I think all of us have experienced that. Like, wow, this isn't what I thought it would be. Even if you've had sex before you got married, a lot of married couples will say, once we got married, we can't agree or it's not fun anymore. [00:14:07] So, yeah, the obstacles are normal and you should expect them.

Laura Dugger: Why do you think that is, that couples, even if they had been sexually active before marriage, they come into marriage and it's not working for them? Any reasons or theories you have on that?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think there are all kinds of reasons. We can look at it from even a spiritual perspective that I really believe that Satan hates great sex within marriage. He does because it's a very powerful part of God's design and God's blessing. And so he'll do anything he can to make sex a source of conflict instead of a source of unity. 

But I think also we often come into marriage with the belief that our sex life is about me being pleased and about us having pleasure. We just naturally love that way when we're immature. We love the idea of you loving me well. 

In marriage, sex is just one of those areas that exposes our selfish perspective. [00:15:09] And it doesn't matter how, quote-unquote, compatible you are, you're going to hit a wall with your spouse, probably early on in marriage related to sexuality, where you wanted sex but he or she didn't. Or maybe your spouse wanted sex and you didn't feel ready. Or something was said that was hurtful. Or, you know, something was insensitive. You're going to run into something that hurts your sense of this was for me. 

Again, this is not just in the sexual relationship. It's all of marriage where you have to share your money, you have to share your time. And you start to realize that you've always defined love as how the other person is making you feel, and now all of a sudden you don't feel so great. I think that's a good part of growing. You know, people will say, hey, that's a bad thing. But if we never experienced that, we would just love very selfishly. We'd never move past that. [00:16:09] 

Laura Dugger: And I think what you do so well, even with your resources like your study Passion Pursuit, there's this healthy both/and approach because, yes, we are selfish. And that can come out in intimacy and marriage. And I would think especially for Christian women, sometimes we're too selfless, if that's possible.  Would you agree with that?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, absolutely. What happens if you're a completely selfless lover and all you want to do is please the other person? Well, one thing that happens is the other person gets to stay selfish. That's not healthy. That's not healthy for intimacy. In the long run, it's going to breed resentment.

I mean, I've talked to women who are 10, 15, 20 years into marriage, and they're resentful that sex has always been about pleasing him. And maybe in the moment they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my duty. I'm a good Christian wife. I'm being a good lover." [00:17:09] But in the long run, you haven't built intimacy and you haven't challenged your husband to learn to be a good lover. And so, yeah, it's not completely about you and it's not completely about him. 

As you learn to love each other, you actually find that it's all supposed to be leading to God, to understanding his love for us, to learning to love God more as a couple. And so I think it's dangerous. I'm glad you brought that up. It's dangerous to have the perspective that it's all about me or it's all about him. Intimacy is a mutual yielding to each other.

Laura Dugger: I remember, it might have even been in your resource, but oftentimes the biggest turn-on for a husband is a turned-on wife. So if she's only focused on being selfless, she could be doing the opposite of what she's actually intending.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're absolutely right. The biggest pleasures that a husband has is knowing that he's bringing pleasure to his wife and absolutely that she's into it, that she's available, that she's enjoying it. [00:18:13] And guys will tell you that, Hey, I appreciate it when my wife's just like, hey, this is for you. I'm just going to be pretty passive in this." They're like, "Well, thank you. But that's not really what I want."

You know, thankfully, God has designed men in such a way that they want to be great lovers. It's part of even their sense of masculinity and ego to please their wife. And so that's a great point, Laura, that you bring up, that even in this idea of I'm going to be unselfish, you're really even stealing a deeper pleasure from your husband if you don't let yourself enjoy it.

Laura Dugger: Let's speak just a little bit further to that wife listening. What encouragement would you have for her or what is the first step maybe in correcting that mindset?

Dr. Juli Slattery: It sounds like you may have gone through our Bible study, Passion Pursuit. Is that right? 

Laura Dugger: That's right. Yeah. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Okay. So, yeah, that Bible study actually is going to be really powerful in unearthing some of the things we believe about sex that really aren't biblical. [00:19:16] And I know I went through this in my own life through writing Passion Pursuit, ironically, just the idea that I'd kind of grown up with without realizing it, that sex was really about pleasing my husband and a good wife would please her husband.

But I never really considered that part of God's design was that a wife is initiating sex, that she's enjoying it. That's even part of a husband's challenge to figure out his wife, to unlock her sexually. 

So a great first step would be going through Passion Pursuit. But if you don't go through Passion Pursuit, get in God's word, read the Song of Solomon, and really think about why would God put such erotic poetry in the Bible? Why does this little book belong within God's word? And what does it say to me about what a healthy sex life is supposed to look like in my marriage? And what you start to realize is that lies just get planted in our hearts without us even realizing it. [00:20:18] 

Sometimes it is through trauma. Sometimes it's because we've done things in the past that we still feel guilty about. And sometimes it's just because the church hasn't taught us a healthy biblical perspective of sexuality. And so we just kind of grow up believing that God really isn't pro-sex, where the Scripture says He really is within the covenant of marriage.

Laura Dugger: Definitely. It is such a great resource. I can't recommend it enough. As always, we'll link to it both in our show notes and then on our website under the Resources tab. 

And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: I want to say thank you to our longtime sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. I hope that you've already downloaded the Chick-fil-A app. Because did you know that with the app you can skip the line and have food ready for you when you arrive? This is one of my favorite options when I'm taking my four daughters to Chick-fil-A East Peoria.

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So if you're looking for a wonderful place to work, visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria or fill out an application online today at cfeastpeoria.com. 

Did you know this podcast recently came under the umbrella of our new nonprofit, Savvy Sauce Charities? We launched Savvy Sauce Charities to resource loved ones to grow in intimacy with God and others. Our goal is to share joy through podcast episodes and monthly emails and bonus content. [00:22:23] 

It has been a learning curve, so I want to clarify something I've previously shared. I always want to be transparent with you, so I apologize if this has been confusing in the past, as I am learning so much through this transition into becoming a nonprofit. 

But as soon as we were recognized as an official nonprofit with a tax ID number, I shared how you could make a tax-deductible donation. Our attorney let me know that we are actually still awaiting the next step in the process, which is to receive our recognition of exempt status from the IRS, and that apparently takes many months. I was informed that contributions will still be retroactively tax-exempt, but we're still awaiting that official confirmation from the IRS. So I will keep you posted when that paperwork goes through. 

But will you prayerfully consider financially partnering with us to ensure that we can continue this work into the future? We've been blessed by donations in the hundreds and thousands and in the single digits, and we are truly grateful for any amount the Lord brings to your mind. [00:23:29] You have no idea how encouraging it is to learn someone has generously shared their offering with us. 

There's not a lot of feedback in this work, so receiving a donation or a kind letter refreshes us to press on, and my promise to you is to continue seeking God as I steward these finances.

I will share updates on our website, thesavvysauce.com, and you can find the "Donate" tab with all the details when you visit thesavvysauce.com. If you have any other questions, always feel free to reach out to this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. Thank you for partnering with us in this meaningful work. I am grateful beyond measure. 

Laura Dugger: Now, on the flip side, are there any parts of sexual intimacy that you believe God's Word makes clear are off-limits to believers?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, for sure. The most obvious thing is anything that involves another person. [00:24:31] We live in a culture that is talking about open marriages and involving other people in your love life in a physical way, which I think most Christians would understand is clearly wrong.

But where we get a little gray with it is, well, how about in my own imagination? Or how about if we as a couple look at pornography as a way of getting into sexual arousal? We've got to understand that whether you bring somebody into your bedroom in the flesh or in an image or on your computer screen, you're violating the purpose of sex, which is to celebrate a covenant promise between the two of you.

I believe Scripture's really clear that we work to make sure that even within our minds and our hearts, it really is a celebration of ecstasy and intimacy and vulnerability that only involves the two people that have made a covenant to each other. [00:25:31] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's a really great point. Like you mentioned earlier, Satan can run with these things. I think one lie that people believe is maybe if they're looking at pornography themselves, this only affects me.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah.

Laura Dugger: That's just not truth.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Or they'll justify it, that it's a shortcut. You know, it's easier to be aroused by looking at something really salacious. But again, what the research shows us is that the end result of that is you're not even going to be able to be aroused by being with your spouse.

You're not going to be able to enjoy the great gift that God has given you and your spouse because your brain has been tricked out to respond to things that are unnatural.

Laura Dugger: Yes. And that thing that you thought was really exciting at the time, that's good to play it out long term. That's wisdom. And to see that it can really devastate your sexual intimacy with your partner. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Mm-hmm.

Laura Dugger: Let's just do a quick general sex ed and cover a few things that you wish spouses knew more about each other. [00:26:32] Let's start with husbands. Juli, because you're an objective third party, what is some helpful information you can provide them with?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I'd say one thing, and this is probably something you already know but it's good to be reminded of. Your wife's sexuality is intertwined with every other aspect of who she is. There's some authors that wrote a book a long time ago called Men Are Like Waffles and Women Are Like Spaghetti.

They describe how men are like waffles because they can compartmentalize everything. Like waffles have those little boxes in them where women are like spaghetti. Every noodle touches every other noodle.

And this is really true with sexuality. Men are much more adept at just compartmentalizing a sexual expression. They can be aroused just by looking at something or one thought. Whereas women, in order for them to be aroused, they have to feel safe emotionally. They have to feel connected to you. They have to be able to shut off everything else that's going on in their mind. [00:27:33] Like, I've got to take care of the kids, and what if one of them hears us?

And so be sensitive to the fact that for your wife to really enjoy sex, you have to be ministering to her at every level. Helping her be rested, helping her feel safe, helping her feel connected. And that sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it's worth it.

And it's not just about helping your wife have a sexual expression. It's about really helping her feel connected to you and enjoying the whole experience, which is why I think a lot of women, particularly as they're raising young kids, they'll say, I just don't like sex because I never feel ready for it. And so, guys, if this is important to you, then remember that you have to think about how your wife is doing relationally and emotionally and physically and not just in the middle of the day or at the end of the day say, hey, how about we be intimate? Because you're likely to get a no if you haven't been aware of those other things. So that would be a big thing I'd tell husbands. [00:28:36] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's so good, and especially because you use that word "ministering", really that definition is meeting other people's needs. That really clarifies the next step maybe a husband can take in meeting the needs of his wife. Like you said, maybe it's doing dishes and putting the kids to bed or they can be creative.

Dr. uli Slattery: Yeah. Some of the most romantic things my husband has done for me have been just ways that he's served me outside of the bedroom. I remember when I was in the stage of motherhood that you're in with little kids, one morning waking up and the sun woke me up. And it's like maybe eight in the morning and I panicked because I was like, "Oh, I slept in like I overslept. I got to get the kids to school. And who woke up the baby and fed"? You know, like I immediately panicked. 

Then I realized that my husband had gotten up early and just done all that for me and let me sleep in. [00:29:34] I tell you, that was like, wow, where's that man? I want to show him some love. But just really understanding that courting your wife, you know, really inviting her to intimacy is about a lot more than getting naked. It's really about serving her in those other areas.

Laura Dugger: And such a practical example that you just gave one way of ministering would be helping her sleep because fatigue is usually the number one for a wife for killing sexual intimacy.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Isn't that funny? It's that simple, but we just don't have the energy. 

The other thing I would encourage husbands to do is to give your wife like a warm-up time. We call that foreplay. But really what I mean even more so is that because women have to be prepared emotionally and physically, if they know, hey, tonight we're going to try to be intimate, then they'll think that way.

They'll begin thinking about what they want to do with you and thinking about, Okay, I'm not going to try to get all the laundry done tonight and, you know, think about I want to take a bath or a shower this afternoon so I just feel clean. [00:30:47] All those things that you don't think are important, that's what gets a woman ready for intimacy. And so if you just feel like you always want to be spontaneous, you're most likely not to be met with open arms.

Like my husband and I have tried different things over the years, whether it's putting sex on the calendar so that I know, Hey, this is what I'm preparing for. Or even something that we would call a requisition order. Doesn't sound romantic, but it was kind of a joke between us where Mike would like say, "Hey, I'm putting in a requisition order. Like I would like to be with you. I want sex with you, but I know it's going to take time for you to get ready. So how about, you know, sometime in the next 24 hours we find a time to be intimate?"

Just that communication has made a huge difference in our marriage, instead of me always feeling like he was going to initiate and I was going to have to try to get out of it because I wasn't ready. [00:31:46] 

Laura Dugger: That's a great example. Before I had kids as a marriage and family therapist, I remember working in a private practice and talking about these issues and clients would come up with different ways to do this. And like you said, for wives, they usually do have to declutter their minds and it helps to be thinking about this.

So when it was a day that they knew they were going to try and be intimate with their husband, they would write TS on the calendar and just think sex. That would mentally prepare them and even help them store up enough energy throughout the day for that night to be special.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're right. I've heard all kinds of creative ideas. Like, you know, hanging a sign on the door or a certain text that's a code between the two of them. That might even change over time as your language with each other changes over time and your circumstance change. But learning to communicate is really, really healthy and will help avoid those continual misunderstandings or feelings of rejection related to sex. [00:32:53] 

Laura Dugger: And it can lighten it up in an appropriate way to make it just kind of fun and playful when you communicate that way.

So now we've covered a little bit of what we would say to husbands. Now, what about wives? What do you wish you could help them understand about their husbands?

Dr. Juli Slattery: I would wish that wives would understand that although husbands can be more compartmentalized with sex, to understand that sex still impacts every aspect of who they are. They don't always have the words for it. 

For example, we've already talked about this a little bit. Husbands, their sense of masculinity or the ego is really tied up in their sexuality. This plays out in a lot of different ways. For a man that has a higher sex drive, if he continually feels rejected by his wife, that chips away at his confidence, at his feeling of safety within your marriage. 

But that also plays out for men that have a lower sex drive. [00:33:53] I'd say probably 20%, 30% of marriages, a man's going to just naturally have a lower sex drive than his wife does. In that situation, both the man and the woman can feel very inadequate. Like, what's wrong with me? A woman will feel like, "All my friends are talking about how their husbands always want sex. My husband never pursues me." And she can feel rejected. 

But what adds to it then is the man starts to feel less like a man. Like, "What's wrong with me? Because I can't enjoy this. I don't desire this like other men do." 

So really understanding as you address sexuality within your marriage, that a man's confidence, his sense of ego, his sense of masculinity and self is really tied up in the whole topic of sexuality. And being sensitive to that, whatever issue you're addressing. Being careful not to shame him, but just to embrace who he is and walk with him on that journey. [00:34:53] 

And that's the other thing I would say is that a wife is really a teammate for a husband in every area of life.  You know, in Genesis, God said it's not good for a man to be alone, so I'm going to make him a helper. Or the Hebrew word is ezer. Like an empowering person that walks alongside him.

I think it's important for a wife to realize that most men face a really challenging journey of trying to honor God with their sexuality. And you want to be his teammate in that. To help him know that he doesn't have to keep secrets from you. That you want to understand where he's tempted. Not that you're his accountability partner, but that you share this part of his life with him. And it's not like he has to be isolated.

So those are two things I'd encourage you to consider as a wife.

Laura Dugger: I think those are great. Just thinking back, I've heard you speak before and there is a really practical example. [00:35:52] I just love how you answered someone's question this one time. She had asked why her husband didn't like her rubbing his leg to get him in the mood. And you just frankly said, "He probably wishes you were rubbing something else."

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. That's practical. But it is a difference between men and women. Women generally like indirect stimulation that makes them feel safe and comfortable and gets them going. Men like direct stimulation in one place. And they're happy to just get right started there. So those are some of the differences that most couples are going to have to navigate.

Laura Dugger: And once we understand some of those gender differences, I think it can counterintuitively pull us closer together and actually make our sex lives more satisfying. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think those gender differences were part of God's original design. It's not like the gender differences appeared with sin. [00:36:52] Adam and Eve were different from the beginning. And there's a lot of reasons why we're different, but one of them is, again, because it forces you to have a larger view of what sex is about in your marriage. That it's not just about me always getting my needs met. It's about us on a journey together learning what it is to love.

Laura Dugger: Well, I love encouragement. So what patterns are you seeing in couples who are getting it right as it relates to their overall intimacy in marriage?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, you know, I get so much encouragement through what I'm doing at Authentic Intimacy. And it's so fun to run into people two or three years after maybe they've been to an event that we've done or they've gone through Passion Pursuit or another book. And they just will say, like, "God has completely changed this area of our life. We used to fight about it all the time. Now it's just really become a joy. And we're learning to love each other in such profound ways." [00:37:53] 

Just being able to hear stories of couples that have overcome infidelity, pornography, you know, just all kinds of differences, sexual pain. And so I get to hear encouraging stories a lot of what happens when a couple really yields this part of their marriage to God. And is on that journey of healing.

Laura Dugger: There may be some effort they have to put into that or maybe go see a third party, and like you said, getting in God's word. But it is so worthwhile.

Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. And it's a journey. You're right. It doesn't just magically happen. You do have to work at it and pray about it. And at times get some outside help. But it's worth it.

Laura Dugger: Well, and if you are one of the keys for them getting this outside help, can you just tell people where they can find you online?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. You can find out everything we're doing at AuthenticIntimacy.com. You'll see books, Bible studies, our podcast, blog events. You know, just however you can connect with our ministry, you'll be able to find that there. [00:38:55] 

Laura Dugger: Juli, I just have one final question for you. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Uh-huh.

Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question today, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Wow, this is going to sound very churchy, but it's the first thing that comes to my mind is just spending time with God. I can't do anything that God asked me to do without spending time with Him, including love my husband. Sex within our marriage has never been an easy thing for us.

And so for us to walk with integrity, for me to be a woman of integrity, for me to teach my kids, really all depends on God's healing in my life and getting His perspective. So if there's one piece of advice I'd give is make an effort, even if it's just 15 minutes a day, to spend time with God and get His perspective on everything, including sexuality. [00:39:56] 

Laura Dugger: That's great wisdom. I know I've followed your work for years, Juli, and I admire your courage just to help others in this realm of pursuing sexuality the way God intended. So thanks for being my guest today.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, thanks so much for letting me share. It's been a joy.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:40:57] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:42:03] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring, Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:04] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

BONUS: Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

BONUS: Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

 

**Transcription Below**

 

1 Corinthians 7:3 (AMP) “The husband must fulfill his [marital] duty to his wife [with good will and kindness], and likewise the wife to her husband."

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance). 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen’s Website 

Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

The Gottman Institute

hotholyhumorous.com

christianfriendlysexpositions.com

christiannymphos.org 

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: T Photography Use code SAVVY when booking to receive 10 extra full-res digital negatives in your session package!

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website 

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfaeastpeoria.com 

If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release, so here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.

But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:22] The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit.

We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs. 

We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. [00:02:22] Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.

And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. 

My guest is psychologist and founder of Authentic Intimacy, Dr. Juli Slattery. 

Here's our chat.

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Juli. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, thanks so much for having me again. 

Laura Dugger: And for those who missed our previous episode, can you give us a glimpse of who you are and what you do?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I'm a wife of 25 years, mom of three sons who are quickly leaving the nest. I'm a clinical psychologist. My work these days is I run a ministry called Authentic Intimacy, and our vision is reclaiming God's design for sexuality. That practically looks like just helping people sort through where is God in the midst of what I'm struggling with, in my marriage, in my singleness, with sexual temptation, with the confusion of culture. [00:03:23] So really integrating God's truth with just the issues that we deal with everyday related to intimacy and sexuality.

Laura Dugger: Well, it's a very important work that you talk with people from all over the world about this topic. So from your wealth of knowledge in this area, what themes are you starting to see repeatedly?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, there are some themes that we've seen really since we started this work in 2012. And those probably won't surprise anyone. But there are things like how do we overcome differences in marriage related to sex? What if I have no sexual desire or my husband has no desire? We talk a lot about pornography and addressing that in marriage and just family. 

Sexual abuse recovery. Probably about one-third of women have had sexual trauma in their past and about one out of every six men. And so this impacts a lot of people. And so how do you heal from that and how that impacts intimacy? [00:04:27] 

Then in today's day and age, we're also getting new questions just related to gender fluidity and just redefining marriage. And what does the Bible have to say about all those things? 

So I'm definitely not bored. My job definitely keeps me on my knees and in the word of God and just really trying to give people biblical guidance through the kinds of issues we're facing today.

Laura Dugger: Yes. Even through your podcast, which is just one part of Authentic Intimacy, you have so many episodes. It just seems you never run out of ideas related to this topic. Is that right?

Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. You would think that we would. We've been doing the podcast now for, I think, like five years and we have over 250 episodes.  But we don't run out of topics because people are just grappling with these issues. 

Sometimes we'll just teach through a topic, but often we'll have a guest on that shares a story of just where God has brought healing and redemption. [00:05:29] Sometimes we just talk about our relationship with the Lord. I wanted all to go back to that. So keep going as long as the podcast is helping people and ministering to them.

Laura Dugger: Well, it sounds like it definitely is. I personally love the local church. I'm sure you do as well. So I hope that we're all doing our part both to build it up and protect it. What do you see the church getting wrong and getting right on this topic?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, you have to almost look at it from a historic point of view. Because I think most of us who have grown up in the church, any form of church, would probably say that my church growing up never talked about sex. And if they did talk about sex, it was awkward. Maybe it was with a very harsh or judgmental tone. Or it was a male pastor telling the wives that this is important in marriage. 

So we have a lot of baggage, I think, from the ways that the church has not addressed sexuality. [00:06:31] Or if we have addressed it, it hasn't been with God's heart. And so there are a lot of people that have a history with the church related to sexuality that actually makes them feel like God is the last place I want to go to talk about sex. And so we have a lot of undoing to get this right, I think, in our current generation. 

I'm glad to see that churches, by and large, are starting to address the kinds of issues that people are struggling with without making them feel shame. For struggling with pornography, for questioning things around gender, for brokenness in marriage, or sleeping around promiscuity, all those things that traditionally you never want to admit in a church, I think we're now starting to get realistic about the fact that this is where people live today and they need practical help. 

But there's also a really big divide happening in our country and also in our churches.[00:07:31] You know, is God primarily a God of love who just embraces wherever we are, allows us to stay where we are? Or is God more a God of truth that has these standards of righteousness and we have to live up to these standards of righteousness? 

There's a lot of sorting through those issues right now in the Christian church of how do we walk with both the truth of God and the grace of God. That's really my heart is helping churches and just individuals grapple through that tension.

Laura Dugger: I like how you said tension there because it's not just an easy one-time sermon that will solve all the problems, right?

Dr. Juli Slattery: No, not at all. Actually, one thing that I'm really encouraging churches to adopt is more of what I call a sexual discipleship model, where they're approaching issues of sexuality with a discipleship mindset. And discipleship is lifelong. It's this goal of maturity that we're all walking towards. [00:08:31] And it means really authentic relationships, doing life together, and dealing with the real-life issues as they happen. You know, let's respond to what just happened in the news or what's happening within our church body, instead of it feeling like sex is always talked about just from like a high and lofty perspective.

Laura Dugger: That's really good. Changing gears here a little bit, as believers, I think that we should have the most fulfilling sex lives in our marriages because we are intimately connected as well to the creator of intimacy. So are there any sexual pleasures or benefits you think believers are missing out on just because of a lack of education or maybe a belief in anything short of God's truth?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I see that all the time, particularly in a couple ways. First of all, there are a lot of Christians that carry shame around related to their sexuality because of things they feel guilty about that they've done in the past or they're currently struggling with, because of things they've experienced or even religious teaching that made them feel that sexual desire and pleasure is wrong. [00:09:42] And so I think that's one big barrier to overcome.

I think particularly with Christian women, like how do I enjoy this in my marriage when I feel like I've grown up thinking this is wrong and my desires are wrong? That's a barrier. But then I think also we have a very superficial, even within the church, understanding of what sexual desire is supposed to be.

I think we buy the Hollywood image of it that the best sexual pleasure is going to be like with two perfect bodies and it's on the honeymoon and it's just this natural ecstasy that happens. That's just not the reality for married couples. It doesn't usually happen right away where sex is fun or pleasurable. It usually takes work. There's obstacles to overcome. Our bodies are not perfect.

And so I think because we buy that lie that the greatest sexual pleasure is kind of this ecstasy of a moment, we miss the kind of pleasure that can be built on a journey over time, even as we together work through obstacles. [00:10:52] There's a much more profound intimacy, vulnerability, and pleasure for couples that will hang in there and be on that journey together instead of giving up when things don't go well right away.

Laura Dugger: You're right because doesn't the research validate that couples who have been together longer are more satisfied, even comparing it to Hollywood, things we wouldn't expect if they're having health issues or they've added children to the marriage, and yet there is this mystery of they're enjoying it more later?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, that's what the research does show, that the most sexually satisfied people are people that have been in a long-term committed relationship. Interestingly, those that have a strong faith, like a religious faith, are more likely to have a good sex life as they age. So, yeah, it bears out God's design. But we don't hear that very often. We're just bombarded with messages that sex is all about how it feels in the moment and how your body looks and how much you're compatible with each other but that's not what the research shows. [00:12:01] 

Laura Dugger: Okay, so now with that foundation, what do you recommend for all of the couples listening to experience more sexual pleasure?

Dr. Juli Slattery: One thing I'd recommend is really to take a long-term view of it. Think of it like you have this project that you're working on as a couple. Sometimes I'll talk about it being like a box of Legos. 

When you open up a box of Legos, you have a really cool design on the outside of the box, but you don't open up the box to get a finished product. You have to put all the pieces together and follow the directions, and it might take you a long time to build it. With Legos even, once you build, you tear it down, you build again.

Sex is a lot more like that. It can be very confusing, frustrating. It can cause conflict in your marriage right out of the gate or as you encounter difficulty. But if you continually remind yourself and your spouse that God has actually given us this gift so that we learn to love more intimately, so that we're learning to forgive, we're learning to be unselfish. [00:13:05] If you can have that perspective, then really any obstacles you have to overcome, whether they're emotional or physical or difference in desires or whether there's pornography or things like that that you need to work through, you see that even in the obstacles, God can be doing something really good between you.

Laura Dugger: I think there's two important points there, what you're talking about. First, that there likely will be obstacles at some point and that there's hope in that. Second, I've heard you speak with that Lego example before. I think it's such a great example. 

I remember you saying if you opened it up and you expected that picture that's on the box, and then you open it up and all these pieces just fall out, you'd be very disappointed.

Dr. Juli Slattery: For sure. I think all of us have experienced that. Like, wow, this isn't what I thought it would be. Even if you've had sex before you got married, a lot of married couples will say, once we got married, we can't agree or it's not fun anymore. [00:14:07] So, yeah, the obstacles are normal and you should expect them.

Laura Dugger: Why do you think that is, that couples, even if they had been sexually active before marriage, they come into marriage and it's not working for them? Any reasons or theories you have on that?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think there are all kinds of reasons. We can look at it from even a spiritual perspective that I really believe that Satan hates great sex within marriage. He does because it's a very powerful part of God's design and God's blessing. And so he'll do anything he can to make sex a source of conflict instead of a source of unity. 

But I think also we often come into marriage with the belief that our sex life is about me being pleased and about us having pleasure. We just naturally love that way when we're immature. We love the idea of you loving me well. 

In marriage, sex is just one of those areas that exposes our selfish perspective. [00:15:09] And it doesn't matter how, quote-unquote, compatible you are, you're going to hit a wall with your spouse, probably early on in marriage related to sexuality, where you wanted sex but he or she didn't. Or maybe your spouse wanted sex and you didn't feel ready. Or something was said that was hurtful. Or, you know, something was insensitive. You're going to run into something that hurts your sense of this was for me. 

Again, this is not just in the sexual relationship. It's all of marriage where you have to share your money, you have to share your time. And you start to realize that you've always defined love as how the other person is making you feel, and now all of a sudden you don't feel so great. I think that's a good part of growing. You know, people will say, hey, that's a bad thing. But if we never experienced that, we would just love very selfishly. We'd never move past that. [00:16:09] 

Laura Dugger: And I think what you do so well, even with your resources like your study Passion Pursuit, there's this healthy both/and approach because, yes, we are selfish. And that can come out in intimacy and marriage. And I would think especially for Christian women, sometimes we're too selfless, if that's possible.  Would you agree with that?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, absolutely. What happens if you're a completely selfless lover and all you want to do is please the other person? Well, one thing that happens is the other person gets to stay selfish. That's not healthy. That's not healthy for intimacy. In the long run, it's going to breed resentment.

I mean, I've talked to women who are 10, 15, 20 years into marriage, and they're resentful that sex has always been about pleasing him. And maybe in the moment they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my duty. I'm a good Christian wife. I'm being a good lover." [00:17:09] But in the long run, you haven't built intimacy and you haven't challenged your husband to learn to be a good lover. And so, yeah, it's not completely about you and it's not completely about him. 

As you learn to love each other, you actually find that it's all supposed to be leading to God, to understanding his love for us, to learning to love God more as a couple. And so I think it's dangerous. I'm glad you brought that up. It's dangerous to have the perspective that it's all about me or it's all about him. Intimacy is a mutual yielding to each other.

Laura Dugger: I remember, it might have even been in your resource, but oftentimes the biggest turn-on for a husband is a turned-on wife. So if she's only focused on being selfless, she could be doing the opposite of what she's actually intending.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're absolutely right. The biggest pleasures that a husband has is knowing that he's bringing pleasure to his wife and absolutely that she's into it, that she's available, that she's enjoying it. [00:18:13] And guys will tell you that, Hey, I appreciate it when my wife's just like, hey, this is for you. I'm just going to be pretty passive in this." They're like, "Well, thank you. But that's not really what I want."

You know, thankfully, God has designed men in such a way that they want to be great lovers. It's part of even their sense of masculinity and ego to please their wife. And so that's a great point, Laura, that you bring up, that even in this idea of I'm going to be unselfish, you're really even stealing a deeper pleasure from your husband if you don't let yourself enjoy it.

Laura Dugger: Let's speak just a little bit further to that wife listening. What encouragement would you have for her or what is the first step maybe in correcting that mindset?

Dr. Juli Slattery: It sounds like you may have gone through our Bible study, Passion Pursuit. Is that right? 

Laura Dugger: That's right. Yeah. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Okay. So, yeah, that Bible study actually is going to be really powerful in unearthing some of the things we believe about sex that really aren't biblical. [00:19:16] And I know I went through this in my own life through writing Passion Pursuit, ironically, just the idea that I'd kind of grown up with without realizing it, that sex was really about pleasing my husband and a good wife would please her husband.

But I never really considered that part of God's design was that a wife is initiating sex, that she's enjoying it. That's even part of a husband's challenge to figure out his wife, to unlock her sexually. 

So a great first step would be going through Passion Pursuit. But if you don't go through Passion Pursuit, get in God's word, read the Song of Solomon, and really think about why would God put such erotic poetry in the Bible? Why does this little book belong within God's word? And what does it say to me about what a healthy sex life is supposed to look like in my marriage? And what you start to realize is that lies just get planted in our hearts without us even realizing it. [00:20:18] 

Sometimes it is through trauma. Sometimes it's because we've done things in the past that we still feel guilty about. And sometimes it's just because the church hasn't taught us a healthy biblical perspective of sexuality. And so we just kind of grow up believing that God really isn't pro-sex, where the Scripture says He really is within the covenant of marriage.

Laura Dugger: Definitely. It is such a great resource. I can't recommend it enough. As always, we'll link to it both in our show notes and then on our website under the Resources tab. 

And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: I want to say thank you to our longtime sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. I hope that you've already downloaded the Chick-fil-A app. Because did you know that with the app you can skip the line and have food ready for you when you arrive? This is one of my favorite options when I'm taking my four daughters to Chick-fil-A East Peoria.

Download the Chick-fil-A app today and start earning points toward free rewards that are fully customized to your preferences and tastes. [00:21:23] Chick-fil-A was named as one of Glassdoor's best places to work in the nation. That's a huge honor.

One team member even wrote, "No comparison. This is a great job for a first job, extra money or career advancement. Such a loving environment, great management, and fair pay." Chick-fil-A believes that the local and involved ownership ensures fostering an environment where you are known, challenged, and cared for. 

So if you're looking for a wonderful place to work, visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria or fill out an application online today at cfeastpeoria.com. 

Did you know this podcast recently came under the umbrella of our new nonprofit, Savvy Sauce Charities? We launched Savvy Sauce Charities to resource loved ones to grow in intimacy with God and others. Our goal is to share joy through podcast episodes and monthly emails and bonus content. [00:22:23] 

It has been a learning curve, so I want to clarify something I've previously shared. I always want to be transparent with you, so I apologize if this has been confusing in the past, as I am learning so much through this transition into becoming a nonprofit. 

But as soon as we were recognized as an official nonprofit with a tax ID number, I shared how you could make a tax-deductible donation. Our attorney let me know that we are actually still awaiting the next step in the process, which is to receive our recognition of exempt status from the IRS, and that apparently takes many months. I was informed that contributions will still be retroactively tax-exempt, but we're still awaiting that official confirmation from the IRS. So I will keep you posted when that paperwork goes through. 

But will you prayerfully consider financially partnering with us to ensure that we can continue this work into the future? We've been blessed by donations in the hundreds and thousands and in the single digits, and we are truly grateful for any amount the Lord brings to your mind. [00:23:29] You have no idea how encouraging it is to learn someone has generously shared their offering with us. 

There's not a lot of feedback in this work, so receiving a donation or a kind letter refreshes us to press on, and my promise to you is to continue seeking God as I steward these finances.

I will share updates on our website, thesavvysauce.com, and you can find the "Donate" tab with all the details when you visit thesavvysauce.com. If you have any other questions, always feel free to reach out to this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. Thank you for partnering with us in this meaningful work. I am grateful beyond measure. 

Laura Dugger: Now, on the flip side, are there any parts of sexual intimacy that you believe God's Word makes clear are off-limits to believers?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, for sure. The most obvious thing is anything that involves another person. [00:24:31] We live in a culture that is talking about open marriages and involving other people in your love life in a physical way, which I think most Christians would understand is clearly wrong.

But where we get a little gray with it is, well, how about in my own imagination? Or how about if we as a couple look at pornography as a way of getting into sexual arousal? We've got to understand that whether you bring somebody into your bedroom in the flesh or in an image or on your computer screen, you're violating the purpose of sex, which is to celebrate a covenant promise between the two of you.

I believe Scripture's really clear that we work to make sure that even within our minds and our hearts, it really is a celebration of ecstasy and intimacy and vulnerability that only involves the two people that have made a covenant to each other. [00:25:31] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's a really great point. Like you mentioned earlier, Satan can run with these things. I think one lie that people believe is maybe if they're looking at pornography themselves, this only affects me.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah.

Laura Dugger: That's just not truth.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Or they'll justify it, that it's a shortcut. You know, it's easier to be aroused by looking at something really salacious. But again, what the research shows us is that the end result of that is you're not even going to be able to be aroused by being with your spouse.

You're not going to be able to enjoy the great gift that God has given you and your spouse because your brain has been tricked out to respond to things that are unnatural.

Laura Dugger: Yes. And that thing that you thought was really exciting at the time, that's good to play it out long term. That's wisdom. And to see that it can really devastate your sexual intimacy with your partner. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Mm-hmm.

Laura Dugger: Let's just do a quick general sex ed and cover a few things that you wish spouses knew more about each other. [00:26:32] Let's start with husbands. Juli, because you're an objective third party, what is some helpful information you can provide them with?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I'd say one thing, and this is probably something you already know but it's good to be reminded of. Your wife's sexuality is intertwined with every other aspect of who she is. There's some authors that wrote a book a long time ago called Men Are Like Waffles and Women Are Like Spaghetti.

They describe how men are like waffles because they can compartmentalize everything. Like waffles have those little boxes in them where women are like spaghetti. Every noodle touches every other noodle.

And this is really true with sexuality. Men are much more adept at just compartmentalizing a sexual expression. They can be aroused just by looking at something or one thought. Whereas women, in order for them to be aroused, they have to feel safe emotionally. They have to feel connected to you. They have to be able to shut off everything else that's going on in their mind. [00:27:33] Like, I've got to take care of the kids, and what if one of them hears us?

And so be sensitive to the fact that for your wife to really enjoy sex, you have to be ministering to her at every level. Helping her be rested, helping her feel safe, helping her feel connected. And that sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it's worth it.

And it's not just about helping your wife have a sexual expression. It's about really helping her feel connected to you and enjoying the whole experience, which is why I think a lot of women, particularly as they're raising young kids, they'll say, I just don't like sex because I never feel ready for it. And so, guys, if this is important to you, then remember that you have to think about how your wife is doing relationally and emotionally and physically and not just in the middle of the day or at the end of the day say, hey, how about we be intimate? Because you're likely to get a no if you haven't been aware of those other things. So that would be a big thing I'd tell husbands. [00:28:36] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's so good, and especially because you use that word "ministering", really that definition is meeting other people's needs. That really clarifies the next step maybe a husband can take in meeting the needs of his wife. Like you said, maybe it's doing dishes and putting the kids to bed or they can be creative.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Some of the most romantic things my husband has done for me have been just ways that he's served me outside of the bedroom. I remember when I was in the stage of motherhood that you're in with little kids, one morning waking up and the sun woke me up. And it's like maybe eight in the morning and I panicked because I was like, "Oh, I slept in like I overslept. I got to get the kids to school. And who woke up the baby and fed"? You know, like I immediately panicked. 

Then I realized that my husband had gotten up early and just done all that for me and let me sleep in. [00:29:34] I tell you, that was like, wow, where's that man? I want to show him some love. But just really understanding that courting your wife, you know, really inviting her to intimacy is about a lot more than getting naked. It's really about serving her in those other areas.

Laura Dugger: And such a practical example that you just gave one way of ministering would be helping her sleep because fatigue is usually the number one for a wife for killing sexual intimacy.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Isn't that funny? It's that simple, but we just don't have the energy. 

The other thing I would encourage husbands to do is to give your wife like a warm-up time. We call that foreplay. But really what I mean even more so is that because women have to be prepared emotionally and physically, if they know, hey, tonight we're going to try to be intimate, then they'll think that way.

They'll begin thinking about what they want to do with you and thinking about, Okay, I'm not going to try to get all the laundry done tonight and, you know, think about I want to take a bath or a shower this afternoon so I just feel clean. [00:30:47] All those things that you don't think are important, that's what gets a woman ready for intimacy. And so if you just feel like you always want to be spontaneous, you're most likely not to be met with open arms.

Like my husband and I have tried different things over the years, whether it's putting sex on the calendar so that I know, Hey, this is what I'm preparing for. Or even something that we would call a requisition order. Doesn't sound romantic, but it was kind of a joke between us where Mike would like say, "Hey, I'm putting in a requisition order. Like I would like to be with you. I want sex with you, but I know it's going to take time for you to get ready. So how about, you know, sometime in the next 24 hours we find a time to be intimate?"

Just that communication has made a huge difference in our marriage, instead of me always feeling like he was going to initiate and I was going to have to try to get out of it because I wasn't ready. [00:31:46] 

Laura Dugger: That's a great example. Before I had kids as a marriage and family therapist, I remember working in a private practice and talking about these issues and clients would come up with different ways to do this. And like you said, for wives, they usually do have to declutter their minds and it helps to be thinking about this.

So when it was a day that they knew they were going to try and be intimate with their husband, they would write TS on the calendar and just think sex. That would mentally prepare them and even help them store up enough energy throughout the day for that night to be special.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're right. I've heard all kinds of creative ideas. Like, you know, hanging a sign on the door or a certain text that's a code between the two of them. That might even change over time as your language with each other changes over time and your circumstance change. But learning to communicate is really, really healthy and will help avoid those continual misunderstandings or feelings of rejection related to sex. [00:32:53] 

Laura Dugger: And it can lighten it up in an appropriate way to make it just kind of fun and playful when you communicate that way.

So now we've covered a little bit of what we would say to husbands. Now, what about wives? What do you wish you could help them understand about their husbands?

Dr. Juli Slattery: I would wish that wives would understand that although husbands can be more compartmentalized with sex, to understand that sex still impacts every aspect of who they are. They don't always have the words for it. 

For example, we've already talked about this a little bit. Husbands, their sense of masculinity or the ego is really tied up in their sexuality. This plays out in a lot of different ways. For a man that has a higher sex drive, if he continually feels rejected by his wife, that chips away at his confidence, at his feeling of safety within your marriage. 

But that also plays out for men that have a lower sex drive. [00:33:53] I'd say probably 20%, 30% of marriages, a man's going to just naturally have a lower sex drive than his wife does. In that situation, both the man and the woman can feel very inadequate. Like, what's wrong with me? A woman will feel like, "All my friends are talking about how their husbands always want sex. My husband never pursues me." And she can feel rejected. 

But what adds to it then is the man starts to feel less like a man. Like, "What's wrong with me? Because I can't enjoy this. I don't desire this like other men do." 

So really understanding as you address sexuality within your marriage, that a man's confidence, his sense of ego, his sense of masculinity and self is really tied up in the whole topic of sexuality. And being sensitive to that, whatever issue you're addressing. Being careful not to shame him, but just to embrace who he is and walk with him on that journey. [00:34:53] 

And that's the other thing I would say is that a wife is really a teammate for a husband in every area of life.  You know, in Genesis, God said it's not good for a man to be alone, so I'm going to make him a helper. Or the Hebrew word is ezer. Like an empowering person that walks alongside him.

I think it's important for a wife to realize that most men face a really challenging journey of trying to honor God with their sexuality. And you want to be his teammate in that. To help him know that he doesn't have to keep secrets from you. That you want to understand where he's tempted. Not that you're his accountability partner, but that you share this part of his life with him. And it's not like he has to be isolated.

So those are two things I'd encourage you to consider as a wife.

Laura Dugger: I think those are great. Just thinking back, I've heard you speak before and there is a really practical example. [00:35:52] I just love how you answered someone's question this one time. She had asked why her husband didn't like her rubbing his leg to get him in the mood. And you just frankly said, "He probably wishes you were rubbing something else."

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. That's practical. But it is a difference between men and women. Women generally like indirect stimulation that makes them feel safe and comfortable and gets them going. Men like direct stimulation in one place. And they're happy to just get right started there. So those are some of the differences that most couples are going to have to navigate.

Laura Dugger: And once we understand some of those gender differences, I think it can counterintuitively pull us closer together and actually make our sex lives more satisfying. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think those gender differences were part of God's original design. It's not like the gender differences appeared with sin. [00:36:52] Adam and Eve were different from the beginning. And there's a lot of reasons why we're different, but one of them is, again, because it forces you to have a larger view of what sex is about in your marriage. That it's not just about me always getting my needs met. It's about us on a journey together learning what it is to love.

Laura Dugger: Well, I love encouragement. So what patterns are you seeing in couples who are getting it right as it relates to their overall intimacy in marriage?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, you know, I get so much encouragement through what I'm doing at Authentic Intimacy. And it's so fun to run into people two or three years after maybe they've been to an event that we've done or they've gone through Passion Pursuit or another book. And they just will say, like, "God has completely changed this area of our life. We used to fight about it all the time. Now it's just really become a joy. And we're learning to love each other in such profound ways." [00:37:53] 

Just being able to hear stories of couples that have overcome infidelity, pornography, you know, just all kinds of differences, sexual pain. And so I get to hear encouraging stories a lot of what happens when a couple really yields this part of their marriage to God. And is on that journey of healing.

Laura Dugger: There may be some effort they have to put into that or maybe go see a third party, and like you said, getting in God's word. But it is so worthwhile.

Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. And it's a journey. You're right. It doesn't just magically happen. You do have to work at it and pray about it. And at times get some outside help. But it's worth it.

Laura Dugger: Well, and if you are one of the keys for them getting this outside help, can you just tell people where they can find you online?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. You can find out everything we're doing at AuthenticIntimacy.com. You'll see books, Bible studies, our podcast, blog events. You know, just however you can connect with our ministry, you'll be able to find that there. [00:38:55] 

Laura Dugger: Juli, I just have one final question for you. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Uh-huh.

Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question today, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Wow, this is going to sound very churchy, but it's the first thing that comes to my mind is just spending time with God. I can't do anything that God asked me to do without spending time with Him, including love my husband. Sex within our marriage has never been an easy thing for us.

And so for us to walk with integrity, for me to be a woman of integrity, for me to teach my kids, really all depends on God's healing in my life and getting His perspective. So if there's one piece of advice I'd give is make an effort, even if it's just 15 minutes a day, to spend time with God and get His perspective on everything, including sexuality. [00:39:56] 

Laura Dugger: That's great wisdom. I know I've followed your work for years, Juli, and I admire your courage just to help others in this realm of pursuing sexuality the way God intended. So thanks for being my guest today.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, thanks so much for letting me share. It's been a joy.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:40:57] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:42:03] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring, Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:04] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

224. Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn

 

Deuteronomy 29:29a (NKJV) "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us"

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Are there any specific questions you recommend we ask our spouse periodically?

2. Will you elaborate on your finding that "men and women tend to have different insecurities that the process of sex can help heal or hurt"?

3. You write "Having a comfortable way to signal (and receive) openness or interest will create connection and prevent much pain." So, how can couples begin to develop their own private language or signals to communicate effectively in a healthy manner?

 

Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Shaunti Feldhahn received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author, and popular speaker.

 

Today, Shaunti applies her analytical skills to investigate eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace. Her groundbreaking research-based books, such as For Women Only, The Kindness Challenge, and Thriving in Love & Money, have sold more than 3 million copies in 25 languages. Her books and studies are popular in homes, counseling centers, and corporations worldwide.

 

Shaunti (often with her husband, Jeff) has spoken around the world, sharing her findings with audiences ranging from churches to women’s and marriage conferences to arena events to youth camps and cruises (yes, those are particularly painful…). Her research and commentary are regularly featured in media as diverse as The Today Show, Focus on the Family, The New York Times and MomLife Today. Shaunti, Jeff, and their two children live in Atlanta and enjoy every minute of living life at warp speed.

 

Secrets of Sex and Marriage Website

 

Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce:

Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen 

Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau 

Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 

Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand

Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt

Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter

Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau

Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack

Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel

Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Cuthor, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers

Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma

Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen

63 Maximizing Sexual Intimacy During the Three Most Challenging Phases of Marriage with Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner

Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George

Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery

Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein

Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein

Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma

Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard

Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner

Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington

Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day

Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler

Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand

Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton

Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)

Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna 

Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry

Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes

Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1

Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2

Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta

Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny

Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler

Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns 

Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus

Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker

Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo

215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen

216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen

217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler

218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

 

Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery

Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma

Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns

Patreon 52 God, Sex, and Your Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery

 

Shaunti's Previous Episode on The Savvy Sauce:

Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn

 

Shaunti's Co-Author's Most Recent Episode on The Savvy Sauce:

Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:20] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 

Shaunti Feldhahn is my returning guest today. She's a social researcher and best-selling author, and she's going to share findings from her most recent project all around the topic of sexual intimacy in marriage.

Here's our chat. 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Shaunti.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, thanks. It's so great to be back with you guys.

Laura Dugger: Well, you've been a guest previously when you spoke about understanding men and women better. [00:01:20] But today, I'm excited to learn about the discoveries from this fabulous book that you and Dr. Michael Sytsma recently co-authored entitled Secrets of Sex and Marriage. 

So let's begin here. Logistically, how did you find people to survey and interview who felt comfortable enough sharing this information?

Shaunti Feldhahn: That is the question, right? When I first felt like I was being led in this direction and that God wanted us to tackle this topic, I was like, "You've got to be kidding me." Because, you know, all of our research projects, they all start with trying to find out how all of us like average people think and feel and the real issues and the stuff we don't get and where the pain points are. And I'm like, "How am I ever going to get information on this?"

And so thankfully... here's actually what happened, and it worked really well. [00:02:22] We ended up doing all the normal kind of anonymous interviews that I normally do with whoever is sitting next to me on the subway or whoever is next to me on the airplane. But I couldn't do that on this topic because, you know, I'd get arrested. 

What we ended up doing was we did the anonymous interviews over Zoom with their cameras blacked out and with fake names. So Jeff and I did all the interviews together. They could see us like our camera was on, but we couldn't see them. We had no idea who they were. They picked fake names and some of them were hilarious, like, you know, Farm Boy and Buttercup or like Wanda and Vision. It was very sweet, but it allowed people to really share safely knowing that we had no idea who they were.

Laura Dugger: That's so creative. And I'd love to know, what findings were you most surprised with by this study? [00:03:27] 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, you know, it's interesting. I'll be candid. Pretty much everything surprised me. One of the things that we try to do in all of our research projects is dig out the stuff that sort of surprises us average couples. One of the things we were focusing on was, what is it that we don't get? Because basically, we're trying to dig out the little things that make a big difference. And if people already know them, they would already be doing them most of the time. And so by definition, we were trying to dig out the stuff that surprised us that we didn't know mattered.

I partnered on this survey and on this project with this renowned sex therapist named Dr. Michael Sytsma, who's very, very well respected and looked to as one of the key leaders in the Christian community in this area. So nothing surprised him. He was like, "Yeah, heard that a million times." [00:04:27] But everything that we included actually surprised us. 

If you want to know, probably my most important surprise, one of the things that we had covered in a couple of previous projects but even so, I found myself being like, "Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. I had no idea" is that when we're talking about physical intimacy as a couple, one of the things that is a really, really common dynamic is that when one partner... kind of just to put it kind of bluntly, one partner wants more connection in that way than the other. Like there's a little bit of a mismatch, which, by the way, is the case with 79% of couples. So the vast majority of us, one partner is kind of wanting more. 

The assumption that's running into the surface is that the reason for that disconnect is that one person has a lower drive than the other and a lower libido. And yeah, that could sometimes be actually an accurate thing that they have a lower drive. [00:05:45] But we found that most of the disconnect isn't because of that. 

One of the most important surprises to me is that within most couples, you're working with two different types of desire. And most of us don't even know that's a thing. That to me was the biggest like aha moment. I can explain the two different types of desire if you're interested.

Laura Dugger: Yes, please do, because these two types of desire manifest in the reverse order. So it's fascinating.

Shaunti Feldhahn: It really is. It's crazy. Like I said, we had covered this a little bit in For Women Only and For Men Only. But we went much more in-depth in this topic in this research project and learned all these things about the physiology that were just, well, like so helpful to know. 

Basically, if you think about it, the version of what we think desire is, is what we see kind of in a movie. [00:06:47] Like it's the Hollywood idea where the guy and the girl kind of look at each other and there's a spark and they both have this sense of hunger for this. You know, they start kissing and pretty soon the clothes are off and they're in bed. Like that's the normal what you see on the screen. 

And for many of us, it doesn't actually work that way and so we think something's wrong or our spouse thinks something is wrong. What we found out is that usually there's nothing wrong. I mean, yeah, sure, some people might have medical issues or whatever, but most of the time it's these two different types of desire. And that sort of Hollywood version where you feel that sense of hunger and you want to connect that you could call initiating desire. 

But there's a second type of desire called receptive desire. The person with receptive desire generally actually has to decide to get engaged sexually. [00:07:48] What we found physiologically is that literally the desire works in the reverse order in the physiology where that person decides to get engaged. And then once their physiology starts getting stimulated, then they start feeling that desire that maybe their spouse felt five or ten minutes ago.

And that right there, that one like aha moment, because that is the majority of couples, one partner has initiating desire and one partner has receptive desire. Actually understanding that is like, wow. It makes such a difference because then neither of us feel like someone's broken. It just is so life-giving once we understand this.

Laura Dugger: Yes, because you make so many great points in that section about anticipation time kind of waking up that receptive partner. And possibly one of my favorite quotes of the book, just because it was summed up brilliantly, is where it says, "In general, for men, desire leads to sex, while for women, sex leads to desire." [00:09:00] 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yep. And that is the case for the vast majority. Now, there are always exceptions, right? Like one of the things that was really interesting is that 73% of women have receptive desire, but 24% have initiating desire. You know, it's about this one-in-four thing. There's an exception.

Some of the women listening to this are going to recognize more of the initiating thing like for themselves. But for most of us as women, it really is life-changing to realize I am not weird. I am not broken.

Also, if we happen to have that receptive desire and our spouse happens to have that initiating desire, it's encouraging to our spouse, too. Because many wives told us that their husbands, you know, they thought that they just weren't desirable enough. [00:10:01] Like there's something wrong with them, that their wife just isn't as interested. 

One of the things this allows us to do is to tell all the initiating desire people out there, which is usually going to be the husband, but not always, is that just so you know, you think, why isn't my spouse interested?  Well, "interested" is an initiating desire word. Your spouse is interested, but that interest isn't activated until after they get going. And so they're making a decision knowing that it will be good eventually and wanting to connect.

Actually, that should be encouraging as well for all the initiating desire spouses out there. It's not the hunger that maybe they want us to have, but that hunger will arrive down the road.

Laura Dugger: It's just incredible how you've articulated this in a really practical way so that it's a book that couples can just read, maybe not even a chapter at a time out, loud with one another. [00:11:08] And I love how it's even brought in this third type of desire, which is intentional desire of, "Okay, it's been a little while. We've been really crazy with the kids and our schedules, but we know this is good for us. So we're going to pursue one another regardless of our actual desire."

Shaunti Feldhahn: Intentional desire sort of it overlaps with the others. And it's basically I want to want this, right? It's kind of like a couple of years ago, I unexpectedly found out that I have breast cancer and I had to go through all of the treatments and everything and they caught it early. It was fine. But one of the things that we realized pretty quickly is that my normal eating habits needed to change and they needed to be more intentional. 

Because I'm always on the go. I'm always running from an airport to speak at a women's group somewhere or whatever and so I'm running through a fast food place and like, Okay, I don't actually want to eat healthy if I'm really honest, like I love sugar and I'm actually very happy with running through a drive through. [00:12:17] But no, I want to eat healthy. And it's sort of an intentional thing. And then I'm glad I did. 

Actually the last year or two now, I'm so glad that I've started to eat more healthy to try to get my weight back in balance and try to get my health back in balance and prevent the cancer from coming back that now I'm actually enjoying it. I don't want to stop. 

It's kind of that same thing when it comes to our intimate life is that intentionality. For many people, it actually stimulates that desire. Now, for some people, it's just always going to be a choice. But for many, when you want to want it and you sort of take steps towards it, then the chemicals get engaged and then you want it more and it becomes a positive cycle.

Laura Dugger: I love how you share all of that, because I think God really does meet us there when we give that to Him and say, "Okay, to be honest, I don't want this right now, but I want to want this. Can you help me?" Something good like that. He does provide that strength. So thank you for sharing that story. And I'm so grateful that you're in remission from cancer.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Aw, thanks. I appreciate that. [00:13:33] 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

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Laura Dugger: What are some common wrong assumptions that you found many couples making? [00:15:37] And then what's some truth that we can replace it with?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Okay, there's a couple. And I'll just give you an example based on what we were just talking about. One of the wrong assumptions is that my spouse is wired the same way as I am. Like there's just this one type of desire, for example. 

So the truth to replace it with is, Okay, actually, it is highly likely that we are wired in two different ways. And that was God's choice. Like if you're upset that your spouse doesn't have initiating desire and you want them to be hungry for you, take that up with God and not with your spouse, because that's the wiring. Right?

Then another common wrong assumption is kind of like, well, it just is what it is. And so I'm just wired this way. And so there's nothing I can do about it and kind of deal with it. That's actually wrong, too, because we are called to care for one another and what matters to both of us, actually. [00:16:44] 

The truth there is, is basically this concept that, you know what, we're always going to need to be mindful of this. This is something that the initiating desire spouse, for example, is going to have to be mindful to say, "Oh, wow, you know, my spouse is making a decision to engage with me. I need to see that as a beautiful thing and not something that's like less than." And to be grateful for that and to try to be that type of person that draws them in so they want to engage. And I'm always going to need to work on that. That's a good thing. 

The person with receptive desire, for example, is probably always going to need to work on that intentionality and that mindfulness of wanting to want and recognizing how important this is for a marriage, both scientifically and biblically. We see that.

And so assuming that it's a healthy relationship and assuming that, you know, there's goodwill between both spouses and this isn't an abusive or controlling kind of thing, that working on that becomes a beautiful thing. [00:17:55] That truth of, you know what, this is something that I'm always going to want to be mindful about on both sides helps us to sort of get outside ourselves, which I think is really, really important in this area.

Laura Dugger: And with that mindset, you also conclude solutions do exist. And I think that gives everyone hope and hopefully some motivation to seek help in this if this is an area of struggle beyond what you're saying, that we need to always be mindful of this and working on it. 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, exactly

Laura Dugger: Well, in marriage, then how can we use our wiring differences to create a dynamic love life?

Shaunti Feldhahn: One of the most crucial things that we found in this research project, I think one of the biggest surprises was about these two different types of desires. But one of the most important application pieces, one of the things that will make everything better is to basically be curious. [00:19:00] The need for each of us, both the husband and wife, to approach our spouse with sort of this curious stance.

One of the things we found actually, statistically, is that it's really common for us to just kind of go on autopilot sort of and make some assumptions about one another. And we're running around with all the different things of life and the kids and work and, you know, whatever is going on. So we're kind of operating based on this day-to-day sense of, and I hate to say this out loud, but this day-to-day sense of sort of cluelessness.

It's like we're just going about our day and we're no longer curious like we were at the beginning in our relationship. Or even worse, actually, and this does happen and this is a damaging thing, is sometimes we've veered over... We're no longer not just not curious and kind of clueless. We've sort of veered over into critical where "something is wrong with you" or the eye rolls or "Ow, I can't believe you said it that way. You know, forget it" or whatever. Like that kind of critical stance. [00:20:17] 

Those two, the critical stance and the what you might call the clueless stance, are both really actually destructive to the marriage as a whole. One of the things that changes a lot, we found statistically, is that if you can snap back into that curious stance that you definitely had at the beginning, like, Okay, what matters to you? And I'm talking about big-picture marriage stuff, not just in the bedroom. Like, why is it that when I said such and such, I'm curious, why did that make you so upset? Like, what was going on in your mind and your heart when I said that about like, why did you let the kids run around outside without their shoes? Like, why did that make you upset? 

And then it's like, "Oh, oh, you know, your spouse is articulating something like, well, I've been with them all day. So you could do your work thing, you know, on Zoom and they were having so much fun and here I was feeling like you were criticizing me for this one thing instead of saying "Thank you for taking the kids all day." [00:21:34] "Oh, Okay, got it. Sorry. I wasn't thinking." 

And that's that curious stance of what matters to you. What do you feel about this? That's for everything in marriage. But then when you apply that especially to your intimate life and especially about what are you thinking and feeling here? What matters to you? What makes you uncomfortable and why? That kind of stuff, it really improves everything because it's basically an antidote to cluelessness and a criticism and contempt and just a bunch of other things that cause issues in a relationship.

Laura Dugger: Okay, Shaunti, then if we are wanting to remain curious, are there any other specific questions that you recommend we ask our spouse periodically? [00:22:34] 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Absolutely. One of the most simple, superpower kind of questions is basically... and this is and this is you asking yourself or asking your spouse. But it's really more about asking yourself this, which is essentially, what's important to my husband, my spouse right now that I don't know that I need to know? Like what is mattering to them that I'm not aware of? 

Actually, one of the ways we designed the book on purpose was to help people get at that question because we designed it so that the spouses could kind of read it together and read it out loud to each other. 

I'll tell you something that just happened a few days ago. My husband and I were doing another podcast with another couple that does a lot of marriage stuff in their ministry. On their podcast, one of the things that they told us, which was so encouraging, was they said that they had gotten our book because probably like with you, our publisher sent a copy of the book so you could look at it and the producer could decide whether they wanted to have us on for the interview. [00:23:49] 

And they said, "Oh, you know what, we have had this practice of taking just, you know, whatever book for several months and reading it out loud to one another in the evening. And often, you know, we'll read three or so pages a night and just talk about it." And they said, "We started your book as our book that we're going to be reading for the next few weeks or whatever." And they said, "We're not getting three pages a night. We're getting like three sentences a night. Because we start saying, "Is this you? And the other person is like, yes, that's me. And the other person is like, what? Tell me about this." 

And so that of getting at what is important to my spouse right now that I need to know, that really is this superpower question that will help improve everything in marriage.

Laura Dugger: I love that. You're right. Sometimes the best questions that are going to unlock deep conversation are really the most simple. [00:24:52] So that's a really helpful application for today. 

Were there any other surprising discoveries that we haven't discussed yet?

Shaunti Feldhahn: I'll tell you another sort of surprise that was a really interesting one for me, which was that... Okay, this is going to sound really weird, but I'm going to say it anyway. Most couples don't actually realize that one of the reasons for disappointment... You know how that sort of dynamic where somebody thought something was going to happen tonight and then it doesn't and then the other spouse feels like this pressure, like, wait, you were expecting something. You know, that kind of that disappointment and pressure dynamic? Well, it turns out one of the reasons for that is that we just don't have a good process for initiation, which people listening to this are probably like, what are you talking about? But really, truly, it's a huge deal. I was so surprised that so many of those hurt feelings can actually be prevented if both spouses have a signal, like there's some way of signaling interest or openness. [00:26:10] 

Like one of the things that I thought was hilarious was I was talking to our co-author, Dr. Michael Sytsma and he was telling me something that had just happened in his therapy office recently, where he had a couple that were really, really disconnected around this area and the husband said, "My wife just doesn't ever want it. She's just never interested." And his wife said, "Well, yeah, I am. I mean, I may not feel it at the beginning, but I know I will when I get going. And so I'm open to it." And he's like, "But you never show me that you're open." And she said, "Last night we were sitting on the couch watching news and I put my hand on your knee." And the husband was like, "That was you initiating?" 

And it was this thing where they just had never talked about like, What are the signals? What are the things that we know means I'm open, I'm not, I'm interested. Can we do this another night? [00:27:16] 

A lot of couples we found in the survey, the vast majority, and this was a nationally representative survey, the vast majority had no signals. But the ones that did were far more likely to connect.

Laura Dugger: Wow, isn't that interesting? Going back to that connection, it's back to the foundation of remaining curious, having that stance, and communicating.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. One of the best stories, it cracked me up,one of the couples, they had this thing where the wife who is the receptive desire spouse, when she would come home from her shift as a pharmacist, she would discreetly write on their mirror in erasable ink and erasable marker. She would write a number on the mirror between 1 and 10. And her husband would sneak upstairs and check it like, you know, they help the kids' dinner and homework and activities and you know, whatever. [00:28:18] But the number was basically how receptive am I feeling tonight? 

Laura Dugger: Wow.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And it was like, "If it was an eight to ten, it's basically like, "I'm a sure bet if you ask" kind of thing. One to four was, and I thought this was hilarious. One to four she said was, stay back if you want to keep your parts. And that five to seven was basically like, I'm not sure. Like, maybe. Maybe not. Let's talk about it. Not sure. 

But that basically helped completely prevent, 100% prevent that sense of anticipation and expectation and something's going to happen and wait, they're tired. It really allowed the couple to communicate about it well, and set expectations with one another well. I loved that example. I thought it was brilliant.

Laura Dugger: Goodness, couples are so creative. [00:29:23] I love that. Will you elaborate on your finding, and I'll just quote you here, that men and women tend to have different insecurities that the process of sex can help heal or hurt?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. So going all the way back to the research on for women only about understanding the inner lives of men, and for men only, which is helping men understand the inner lives of women, one of the least understood things that often causes problems, and this, by the way, causes a lot of issues in a lot of areas of marriage, not just in physical intimacy, but it has a direct application here, is the reality that for most men and for most women, and I'm talking about depending on our survey, it was somewhere in the 75 to 85% range for men and 75 to 85% range for women, which means, by the way, again, there's that exception, quotient, right? [00:30:30] 

Laura Dugger: Mm-hmm.

Shaunti Feldhahn: But that we tend to have different primary insecurities and vulnerabilities and self-doubts that are running under the surface. And it's kind of a painful raw nerve and we withdraw when that raw nerve is hit in some way.

Women's insecurity in general is basically, am I lovable? That's kind of what's running on the surface, which is one of the reasons that we love to feel loved, because it speaks to that and it says you are lovable for who you are as a person on the inside, right?

But for men, in most cases, again, not all, but in most cases, the insecurity is actually really different.  It's not am I lovable, but am I able? Am I adequate? Do I measure up? You could basically say and summarize it as am I any good at what I do on the outside? [00:31:31] 

So women are more like, am I worthy of being loved for who I am on the inside? Men are much more questioning, am I any good at what I do on the outside? 

And when there's pain in the relationship, men, if that raw nerve is hit, if again, like he's been outside with the kids and you come outside and like, why are you letting them run around with other shoes, that's saying you're no good at what you do. We don't think of it that way, but that's what he's hearing. "What you did on the outside, it wasn't good enough. You failed." And it's painful. It's because of that insecurity it's a raw nerve. 

And if a man feels that self-doubt and that vulnerability regularly hit, he tends to kind of pull back emotionally. He shuts down. He becomes passive. He stops talking. He might get angry. It's a signal of pain. [00:32:31] 

For us as women, again, this is not 100%, but when we're hurt as women and feeling like I'm not lovable, he doesn't love me, it's too easy for him to spend all the time at the office and he doesn't talk anymore, we withdraw not just kind of emotionally, we actually withdraw sexually in the bedroom. We're not going to be as open. We're not going to be as interested.

And yet when we try to attend to these two different sets of vulnerabilities, what ends up happening is that both of us become more open. Like our husband, many women have noticed that when they are being intentional about that physical intimacy and having that intentional desire, that they notice that their husband is just much more tender and he's much more warm and more attentive. [00:33:33] That's like a signal of him feeling cared for. That's his signal. 

So for us, our signal is on a lot of sorts of things, but we're also more open in the bedroom, usually. That's an example of just how important this is. It's all wrapped up in those insecurities.

Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life. What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that has improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info at The Savvy Sauce.com. 

You've documented, I'll just give an example from your book for both women and men, because this practically may be very helpful to some couples to understand one another. [00:34:39] You wrote, "As one woman put it, I know that my body climaxing almost has more to do with how close I feel to my husband than it does the physical act." 

And then from the husband's point of view, you had written, "If you want to, you can press the reset button on your husband any time." Also it make me giggle. Those are so helpful. 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah, it's interesting. And it's also controversial to some degree. Because some people say, are you talking about manipulating him with your body? Like, that's what some people are going to hear from that. 

The reality is actually not the way you're thinking, because this is where both people want it this way, where he is longing for connection in that example, and you want that connection as well. And just recognize is that this actually speaks in a very deep way to that question of "am I able?" inside that he has. And feeling desirable really speaks to that. [00:35:48] And so this is a mutual way of showing one another that you care. 

In today's world, it's a controversial question, it's a controversial issue. And all I'm doing is saying, these are the numbers. This is something that if you feel like that there are some issues there in your relationship, think about caring for one another in what matters to the other person's vulnerabilities and speaking into that.  Because it really does... in most cases, it speaks life to that person.

Laura Dugger: And on this topic of insecurities, would you mind sharing a lesson that one 81-year-old woman taught you?

Shaunti Feldhahn: I was telling this to a women's group not that long ago. I was doing a multi-speaker women's conference. I was asking the organizers if I could tell this story because it's a little bit spicy. [00:36:51] 

But it was just so perfect on this topic, because I was actually at another women's event a number of years ago and we were talking about this topic and about the insecurities inside. The woman who had founded this women's conference, like 40-something years before she was now 81 years old. 

She was talking about how important it was that at this women's conference that we did talk a bit about intimacy. Like it's such a big deal. We needed to talk about it and the insecurities playing in. And she said she had been at a women's Bible study... She had an 87-year-old husband; she and her husband had been married for a lot of years. And she had been at a women's Bible study, where the apparently the Bible study teacher had addressed these insecurities and said, "You know what, we have to get across to ourselves that in Christ, we are loved and we are beautiful and we are accepted, just as we are with all of our imperfections." [00:37:58] And that that, you know, helps in our life in many ways, including our intimate life. 

So she said the teacher of this Bible study said we have so many insecurities about our bodies, for example, that she said the next time that you get out of the shower, you drop that towel and you look in the bathroom mirror and you ask yourself, am I loved and accepted and beautiful just as I am?

So this 81-year-old lady said she did that the day before and she got out of the shower and she asked herself in the mirror, am I loved, accepted, and beautiful just as I am? And she hears this chuckle and she turns her head and there is her 87-year-old husband lying on the bed in the bedroom and he goes, "Yes, you are, and bring it over here, baby." 

I love that so much, partly because I just love that story, but also because of what it says that we have found also in the numbers in this nationally representative survey, which is that if we can understand some of these things around one another and tend to one another's insecurities and vulnerabilities, there is no reason in the world, even if our bodies stop working perfectly as we get older and older, there's no reason in the world that we can't still have a rich, intimate life together. [00:39:32] 

Being creative and caring for one another well into our 80s and 90s, even that when people are probably raising their eyebrows at that, but I've asked many sex therapists that question and they all say, Oh, yes, absolutely. So that to me is encouraging.

Laura Dugger: Love it. Because that just perfectly illustrate just the playfulness and the sense of humor, laughter, and fun that it can add to enrich your marriage. But let's also circle back to something that you had covered a little while ago about us missing each other's signals and having miscommunications that often lead to hurt. Because you're right, "Having a comfortable way to signal and receive openness or interest will create connection and prevent much pain."

So Shaunti, how can couples begin to develop their own private language or signals to communicate effectively in a healthy manner? [00:40:36] 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, that example of writing the number on the mirror of how open am I feeling tonight, those kinds of examples is something that you're just going to have to your spouse about. And the easiest way to do it to get started is essentially, what do we already do? What is it that already is a bit of a thing? 

Like one couple, their particular schedule was such that there was a lot of running around to get the kids out the door for school early in the morning. And then they had a couple of hours before they had to each be at their individual jobs. So they took showers and everything after they got the kids to school, which obviously a lot of families do. 

One of the things that they had talked about that they didn't even realize was like an official signal, but they could turn it into one, is as they're running around the kitchen with the kids, one of them would ask the other, so you getting ready to take your shower? [00:41:43] And they would raise their eyebrows. And that was sort of an invitation to "you want to join me?" And of course, the kids are like 8 years old, they have no idea what's going on.

But that was an example of something that they didn't realize was a thing. When we started asking them, like, how do you know whether you want to connect or not, that was the kind of story we heard and realized, Oh, wait, that could become an official example of as opposed to just when it happens occasionally. And so it's that kind of stuff that you're developing your own private language in order to communicate well. 

Now, let me just say, and this is really important, there are going to be some couples that have significant heartache and pain in this area, because maybe the communication is broken down, maybe the relationship has broken down, you know, maybe there's been trauma that has kind of gotten in the way and you think it's a bridge too far to try to figure out how to get some sort of signal going that we already are doing because we're not doing anything. [00:42:55] 

That's an example of where if there is some significant pain that has been built up, there's maybe some work that has to be done first before you go into that. Sometimes the work is just, you know, reading the book out loud to one another and going, Oh, my gosh, I had no idea. I'm so sorry. You know, like understanding one another more, getting curious, like we talked about. 

But sometimes it's really important to say, "You know what, there are some pieces of the puzzle here that we need somebody to help us figure out. We need to be able to figure out how to communicate more effectively on this." And to go see a counselor, go see a therapist, even if it's just for a few visits.

To be able to say, "We have some issues in communicating, especially around this area, but really all areas that we need to figure out in order to get better in the more intimate areas of our life." [00:43:58] So that's something for people to just be aware of is that there are things that you can do, but you do actually in some cases have to do them before you can connect well.

Laura Dugger: That's such a good word because help is available. Some couples listening may absolutely be benefited by seeking that out. If anybody wants to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you direct us?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Probably the most important starting point, we actually... and when I say we, I mean Dr. Michael Sytsma and me and Jeff, we created a website called secretsofsexandmarriage.com. So it's the exact same as the book title. So secretsofsexandmarriage.com.

One of the things that we were, and still are, we're continuing to add to it all the time that we were doing is wanting to build up a central resource, I guess, so that if people are like, Oh, wow, I recognize I need a little help in this area, or, you know, what about my husband has a problem with pornography, or, well, we're not having sex as much because I have like significant sexual pain or stuff that's more specialized, right? [00:45:17] 

One of the things we wanted to do and have done on that website is we've created a bunch of resources for people on those particular areas. And we're adding more all the time. And, and this is probably the most important piece, is that if someone needs a little bit of extra help, we have some ways that that person can get some referral resources to find a specialist in whatever the area is.

Because that's the thing that's really encouraging. There is no reason in the world that most of these problems can't be solved. Most of them absolutely can. And that was one of the most encouraging things about working with a sex therapist on this project is stuff that I saw is like, Oh, my gosh, that's a really big issue. He's like, no, no, no, we deal with this all the time. It's fine. So that's helpful and encouraging. 

Often something can be started, even if only one partner wants to start it, and just get some counsel and advice. [00:46:21] 

Laura Dugger: It's so good. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. Additionally, we have at least 50 episodes that are free on The Savvy Sauce that do discuss all of these different areas of sexual intimacy in marriage.

So I will add links to those as well. But just for fun, Shaunti, are there any funny family stories? Because there were three out of the four members of your family that were working together on this project. Is that right?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, my gosh, I do not know how you found that. That was hidden in the acknowledgments of the book. Yes, there is a funny family story. Because Dr. Mike and I, after we do all the interviews and the anonymous interviews and whatever, we always do these big surveys, right? These nationally representative surveys. We get really good data. It's really expensive. 

And this data is purchased at a cost, basically. Like for this project, it was $120,000 project and so the analysis of this precious data becomes really important. [00:47:34] We had a PhD graduate student working with us to do a lot of the number crunching and, you know, do a lot of the analysis because we could do it but, you know, we just don't have time to do that and the writing and some other analysis and all the other stuff we were doing. 

So we had this graduate PhD student working with us. And we get the data in and about a week later... I mean, it's not funny, but a week later, she has this like family emergency where she has to move back to where she's from because her dad, I guess had a stroke or needed a lot of medical attention, and they needed her help.

And she said, "I'm so sorry, I'm not going to be able to work on this project." And we're like, "Oh, my gosh, this is May. By now there's no way to find somebody else who could do a summer job," because this is basically a summer job for a graduate student or whatever. "And there's no way that we're going to be able to find somebody who's that good. And we have the book to turn in." Like this was devastating. [00:48:39] And I asked Jeff, I'm like, "What are we going to do? We don't have anybody to analyze the data. And he kind of looks at me funny and he says, "Um, I think she's living upstairs." 

Because our daughter who is an engineering student, which is heavily quantitative, heavily math-oriented, our daughter's internship for the summer had actually fallen through. And I realized, Oh, my gosh, we don't need a PhD graduate student in sexual therapy. We just need somebody who's really good at quantitative analysis.

So we went to our at-the-time 20-year-old daughter. And we're like, "Um, how would you feel about being the analyst on this project with your mother and father about sex?" [00:49:30] And the poor girl is like, "Okay, I need a job, I need the income, you need my help, but you are paying for my therapy." It actually ended up working really well. She just basically pretended that she was not working for her mother and father. She just pretended this was a job like any other job. And she did a great job.

Laura Dugger: I love it. Fortunately, you've met and worked with many wonderful therapists through the years. So that works out well. And I'm just wondering what family conversations would look like around the table then because three out of the four are working on it.

Shaunti Feldhahn: None. Zero. I'm quite sorry, but she put on her little professional hat and she's like, "Okay, let's analyze the orgasm questions here. Here's the orgasm answers." And she's like, "Just so you know, I'm pretending I'm not having this conversation with you." So, no, none of those conversations happened around the family dinner table. Because we pretended we were not members of the same family for those professional conversations.

Laura Dugger: My word. Thank you for giving us a glimpse into what that would actually look like. That definitely provides some laughs.

Shaunti, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:50:57] 

Shaunti Feldhahn: So it's actually I wouldn't have been able to put it this way until this project. But my savvy sauce is curiosity. That's my encouragement for everybody is there is life-changing stuff that happens when you try to understand your spouse better in whatever the area is right, not just this area, but kind of recognizing and being able to look under the surface and being able to see like the vulnerable person underneath that confident exterior. 

So understanding that you are trying to dig out, trying to investigate and actually, trying to speak to that inner person, you know, that tender heart that's on the inside, that is life-changing once you can do that.

Laura Dugger: That's so good. Shaunti, as always, you were such a cheerful and helpful and knowledgeable guest today. So thank you for being my guest.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Absolutely. It's such a pleasure to be with you. [00:52:08] 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:53:08] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:54:07] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:55:12] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence

223. Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence

 

Jonah 2:8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you tell us about meeting your (now) husband for the first time and share a bit of your love story?

2. What unique joys and sorrows did your family experience as you raised children in a political family in Washington DC?

3. Will you tell us more about your experience with the Secret Service, both for you and for them?

 

Karen Pence is a former congressional spouse, first lady of Indiana, and second lady of the United States. She worked as a schoolteacher for more than thirty years and started her own watercolor business. She is also the mother of three married children and a grandmother. She lives with her family in Zionsville, Indiana.

 

Connect with Karen Pence on X or Instagram

 

When It's Your Turn to Serve by Karen Pence

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.

My guest today is former First Lady of Indiana and former Second Lady of the United States, Mrs. Karen Pence. She recently documented her interesting life journey in a book entitled When It's Your Turn to Serve: Experiencing God's Grace in His Calling for Your Life.

We're going to get to hear a little bit more of her back story through this conversation. But I do want to let you know up front, we had a few issues with the audio quality, and I do apologize. [00:01:22] But I also want to encourage you to stay with us, because what is lacking in audio quality is certainly made up for in quality conversation and storytelling, because Mrs. Pence has so much goodness to share. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mrs. Pence. 

Karen Pence: Great to be here, Laura.

Laura Dugger: Well, will you start by just first giving us a glimpse into your current phase of life?

Karen Pence: Yes, you know, it's interesting because Mike and I are at that stage now where we raise our kids. They're all married and we have three precious little granddaughters. 

It's an interesting time for us. You know, we've spent most of our married life being in public service, serving in political office. Now we're serving, you know, as private citizens. And so it's interesting to see where God is leading us and the opportunities that He's bringing our way. [00:02:25] Because, you know, one thing that we've learned over the years is that God can use us wherever He wants to. So it's an exciting time for us just to kind of see what God's plans are for us now.

Laura Dugger: I love that. Let's also just back it up a few years. Will you tell us about the first time you met your now husband and just share a little bit of your love story?

Karen Pence: Yes, actually it's a funny story. Mike tells it really... it's hysterical to hear him tell it. But I was actually playing guitar in a guitar group in a worship group in church. He came up to me after the service and actually said he wanted to join the guitar group. And I said, "Well, you would need to talk to the guy with the beard." At that point, he stuck out his hand and said, "I'm Mike Pence." And I realized that was just his ploy to meet me. [00:03:26] 

Although he could have followed it up. He actually does play guitar and he's played in some worship groups before. But he was in law school, and I said, "Oh, my sister's in law school, too." So he looked her up, got her phone number, and called her house. But I was at her house the day that he called. I was watching her two kids and I was the one who answered the phone. And when he found out it was me, I think he got a little bit scared and actually hung up on me. Then he called right back and we laughed about it. 

But our first date was taking those two ice skating and the rest is history.

Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that so much. One other coincidental thing that you mention in your book is that first conversation took place at a church that you write was right across the street from the Indiana governor's residence where we would serve 30 years later. [00:04:25] 

Karen Pence: Yeah. It's funny because it's literally right across the street. Little did we know that God was going to bring us full circle and actually have us serve and live in the governor's residence years later.

Laura Dugger: Well, something else that I also appreciate in your book, you quote scripture throughout, but there's some powerful words in the Bible specifically from Jonah 2:8. So will you share that scripture and elaborate how God has used those words to guide you throughout the year?

Karen Pence: Well, I'm glad you asked about that, Laura, because in my book, When It's Your Turn to Serve, one of the things I try and do is encourage the reader to be willing to step out if you feel God's call on your life. I certainly never anticipated that I was going to end up being the second lady of the United States.  

But when we first started out, we had just bought a little house and we were so excited. [00:05:29] It was the first home that we had owned, but it was outside of the congressional district. And when Mike and I had decided to go ahead and make that first run for Congress, we realized we're going to have to move. We felt we should live in the district and the district encompassed the area where I taught and the area where he had lived his whole life and grown up. And so we had to move to run. 

The verse that we clung to that first campaign, Jonah 2:8, "Is those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs." So for us, the worthless idol was the little house that we had just bought, because by letting go of that and following God's calling, it led to so many opportunities through the years.

I think back to what if we hadn't been willing to give up that little house, all of the opportunities that we would have missed over the years. It's not always easy to give up, you know, those idols, but I find that when we do, we experience God's grace. That's the subtitle of my book is Experiencing God's Grace in His Calling for Your Life. [00:06:52] When he calls us, he truly does give us the grace. 

And so for us, many times we've had to say, Okay, are we clinging to some worthless idol right now? Are we afraid of stepping out and trusting God? And so it's actually a verse that we have carried with us for 38 years of marriage.

Laura Dugger: Yes, it certainly seemed to play out multiple times throughout your life. There was one pivotal conversation when Mike was just questioning someone for how to prepare now to run for Congress in his 50s. So will you share that story?

Karen Pence: Right. I mean, it was interesting because he and a friend decided to go speak to the county chairman. Because Mike and I at that time, when we were first married, he was the precinct committeeman and I was the vice committeewoman. And it was a great opportunity for us to start getting involved in politics. Because when you're the precinct committeeman, you go around to your neighbors, you get them registered to vote, you work at the polls on Election Day. [00:08:00] It's just a great way to meet all of the people in your community.

So Mike decided to go to the county chairman and say, Okay, this is what we're doing right now. But what should we be doing in addition to that in case I decide to run for Congress years later? And the county chairman simply said, "You should run. You should run right now. Because the best way to learn about running for an office is just to jump in with both feet and run for office." And so that's what we did.

It's interesting because we didn't win that election. We didn't win the next election either. It would be 12 years later that we ran one more time and actually Mike won his run for Congress.

Laura Dugger: Wow. That is relatable that even when we hear through maybe somebody else speaking some encouragement into our life, that God still has a plan in that timing, even though it's maybe unexpected. [00:09:05] But as your family grew and you added children, can you elaborate on more ways that God's timing was different than your own, but perfect overall?

Karen Pence: Yes. Because, you know what, Laura? I want to say all I ever wanted was to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted. I was an elementary teacher then. Actually, I taught all the way through my time at Second Lady. But I was teaching school. I loved kids. I just wanted to be a mom. 

What we found was God wasn't bringing us children when we first got married. I was 28 when we got married, and it actually took us six years before I got pregnant with our first, Michael. So I was 34 when we had our first child and 38 when we had our third. 

You know, for any of your listeners who may be struggling with infertility, or maybe you're trying to get a certain job and it's not working out, or you're wanting to buy a home, or you're wanting to find your mate, your partner, and the timing just, you know, you keep having to wait and wait and wait. [00:10:18] God's timing is perfect. When you're in the midst of it, it doesn't seem that way. 

I remember thinking, "I don't understand this. I'm an elementary teacher. I don't have these big desires to be wealthy or famous or have some huge career. I just want to be a mom." And everyone around us was having babies.

I tell the story in the book. I remember being at one Easter brunch and my little niece leaned over and said to me, "Auntie Karen, why don't you have any babies?" And I said, "I don't know. God hasn't brought me any babies yet." And so for me, I couldn't understand why God wasn't bringing us babies. We wanted them now. We were ready. Mike was working. I was working. I'd had many years of my career already. 

But what I found was His timing was perfect. [00:11:19] Because by the time we did go to Washington, our kids were elementary age, the lower elementary age. And if we had had them when we wanted to, they would have been teenagers when Mike got elected to Congress. And I don't know if I would have wanted to move teenage kids to Washington. It might have been a little more difficult. 

And so the way that God's timing worked out, by the time we went to Washington, they were in elementary school. And when we went there, it was also another miracle that I got a job teaching art in their school. So all of these things kind of when you look back on your life, you have the wisdom of age and experience to kind of look back and say, "I get it. That's why you didn't want us to have kids when we wanted to have kids." And the timing, when I look back, is just absolutely perfect. [00:12:19] 

I look at the people that my kids met who are their spouses now and their experiences and the friends they made in school and how they've been lifelong friends. It's just all of these little things go together. And God knew, no, I'm not going to bring you children until I know it's the perfect time.

Laura Dugger: What you did is so unique because you really stayed together as a family unit. I'm curious, what unique joys and sorrows did your family experience as you raised your children in a political family in Washington, D.C.? 

Karen Pence: Well, you know, it's interesting when we decided to move to Washington after Mike won, it's a difficult thing in politics when you're elected to Congress because Congress serves in Washington, D.C., but your home is in another state. And it's difficult for these congressional families. [00:13:21] And they all make whatever choice works best for their family. 

We found, for us, that we wanted to be together as a family. So Mike hit it head-on with our constituents and he just said, "You know, I ran on family values and so for me, I'm keeping my family with me." And so we moved with him to Washington. We still had our home in Indiana. We kept that. We would come back on weekends and summer. And when Mike would come back to the district, he would stay there.

But we knew that we needed to be where Mike was. He still did 52 town halls a year in his congressional district, came back all the time. What we did was we started kind of incorporating him taking one of the kids with him. So maybe Audrey would go with him for a weekend. You know, here she was a little first grader, second grader. She would introduce her dad at events and pass out flyers and they'd go out to dinner together. [00:14:30] 

And so we tried to kind of make it a family thing, even when Mike had to travel back to the district. We just wanted him to be where we were and we wanted to be where he was the majority of his time. We would take dinner to the Capitol. We would have tacos on the steps of the Capitol or we would bring root beer floats and make them for him and the staff. Or we'd go to the restaurant across the street from the Capitol. And he would be able to leave and come to soccer games or puppet shows or parent-teacher conferences and then head back for votes. So for us, it really worked out well for us to be with him. 

I remember when we were sitting on the front porch of our home in Arlington, Virginia, with the moving truck packed and we were heading back to Indiana after 12 years in Congress and Mike was going to run for governor. [00:15:31] I sat there on the porch with him and he got tears in his eyes and he looked at me and said, "Thank you." And I said, "What are you thanking me for?" And he said, "Thank you for moving here and for me not missing any of this." 

It was a way that he was intimately involved in in our day-to-day life and the neighbors and the kids at school and the church. So for us, we decided to keep our family together.

But every congressional family has to do it however they need to. You know, if I were a dentist and Mike was elected to Congress, I wouldn't want to just move my whole dental practice to Washington. So, you know, there are situations where the spouses and the family can't move. But for us, that's what worked best for us.

Laura Dugger: I love hearing your story. And I'm sure it's one that, like Mike even mentioned, you don't have regrets then when you look back. [00:16:33] But it's apparent that parenting is so important to both of you. I love this quote from page 61 where you're talking about parenting and you write, quote, "I learned to rely on my faith, my friends, and to read everything I could about how to parent any particular age," end quote. I just thought that was so applicable to all of us parents. 

I just want to share one other quote that's from page 29, where you write, "When your life seems to be going on smoothly, that's usually when God puts it into a blender. And He had such different plans for us, plans way beyond what we ever could have imagined or planned for. Amazing plans. Not easy, but amazing." 

So, Mrs. Pence, will you take us into that part of your life when things really started to rapidly change?

Karen Pence: You know, Laura, when you say that, there are like about 10 or 15 times in my life where that's happened. [00:17:38] It wasn't really just one. But I mean, it does seem that way, that God... you know, He wants us on our knees and He wants us dependent on Him. 

When we decided to go ahead and run for Congress that third time, our kids were, you know, five, six, and seven. We had built our dream home. I had started my watercolor practice and Mike had his own talk radio show. I mean, we were set... Our kids cemented their handprints in the driveway. I mean, this was where we knew we are going to live in this home the whole time we raise our kids. We are set. 

And that's when the seat became an open seat and people started approaching Mike to run again for Congress. This time, I really did have to give up the idol of this dream home. And we were established and our kids were all in school. [00:18:42] That was when I really had to say, "Lord, you want me to raise my kids in Washington, D.C.? How could you possibly want that for us?" So we really struggled with that decision. 

Actually, I tell the story in the book about how I took Mike to a dude ranch for his 40th birthday. It was a surprise gift. One day he and I rode horses up to the top of this bluff in the Teddy Roosevelt National Forest. And we got off of our horses, and we were trying to make a decision that week whether or not we were going to run a third time. It would mean a lot of sacrifices for us, and it would mean really changing our life completely. 

We were sitting there on that bluff, and Mike said, "We've got to make a decision." And right then, these two red-tailed hawks were just rising on the wind and they weren't flapping their wings, but they were lifting higher and higher, just rising on the wind currents. [00:19:48] 

Mike is romantic. He looked out, and he said, "You know, those two red-tailed hawks are like us." And I said, "Well, if those two hawks are like us, then I think we should run. But this time, we should do it with no flapping. We should step off of this cliff. And if God wants to lift us up like He is the hawks, then we'll let Him take us where He wants us to go." 

Because the first two times we had run, Laura, we had been pretty arrogant and pretty full of ourselves. Honestly, we really thought Mike and Karen Pence are going to be God's gift to Washington, D.C. I really believe that's why God did not let us be successful then. Because this third run that was going to totally change our whole lives, we were completely dependent on Him. And we wanted Him to be in control, and we just wanted to make ourselves available. [00:20:50] 

I think that's one of the lessons that I try and share throughout the book, is that you can experience God's grace in His calling for your life. Not your decision on what you want to do for your life, but what He wants you to do. That story we share with every staff member, every staff retreat, because we don't want anyone even around us or on our staff who is doing it just for selfish purposes.

Once again, here he was governor, again, our life just got thrown into the blender when Donald Trump called and asked him to run as his running mate. Again, it was that giving up our second run for governor, giving up living in Indiana, going on the campaign trail. 

So a lot of the experiences that I share in the book are some of the sacrifices and struggles of following God's call. [00:21:52] But I also hope that people see woven throughout the blessings and the grace that God just showered us with and continues to shower us with. I think that fulfillment in life comes from accepting His call and being open to His call.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

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Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for "Sam Leman Eureka". You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

Laura Dugger: I just want to zero in on one of those topics. When he receives this phone call from Donald Trump, were the two of you surprised at that point, or what were your thoughts and details of that chapter? [00:23:53] 

Karen Pence: You know, that was a surprise. I think the reason it was such a surprise for me was because when we actually went to Bedminster and met with Donald and Melania Trump and had dinner with them and talked about the possibility — we knew he was looking at other people then — at the end of the dinner, he said to Mike, "Well, you know, this will work out okay for you. I mean, we'll find a place for you. We'll find a place for you in the administration." 

I said to Mike after dinner, heading back to our room, I said, "Well, he's not picking you. I mean, he made it very clear that he'll find a place for you in the administration, but he's not going to pick you for his vice president." So when he called, it truly was quite a surprise. It was really a surprise.

Laura Dugger: I was fascinated then if we fast forward to when you are in that chapter where your husband is the vice president, you're the second lady of the United States. [00:24:58] And I was so fascinated by this chapter on Secret Service. So will you tell us more about that experience, both for you and for them?

Karen Pence: You know, it's interesting. One of the things I try to do in the book is tell some of the behind-the-scenes stories that people don't necessarily hear about. Like what's it like to move to the vice president's residence? I mean, how do you get furniture? How do you move in? 

And I think one of the things that most people ask me about is the Secret Service, because, you know, in our culture, we hold the Secret Service in such high esteem. These are men and women who literally put their lives on the line every day. It's a very humbling thing to have someone willing to do that who really doesn't know Karen Pence very well. [00:25:57] 

One of the things that I wanted to do was I wanted to do a chapter on the Secret Service. I included in that chapter a little speech that I gave at one of our very last Christmas parties at the vice president's residence. It was after the election and the Secret Service families were all there celebrating with us. 

I wanted the families to know how much we value them and how much we value the Secret Service members. And so I told a couple of little stories to the families there, because what they may not realize is that the Secret Service puts their lives on the line for that office holder. It's not necessarily Mike and Karen Pence, but they know that they have to protect the United States seat of government and they have to protect the principles because it would have effects all over the world if something happened to the vice president. [00:27:06] So they really take their job very seriously.

But what people may not understand is they frequently have to move. I tell in the book about how we moved 18 times and the pros and cons of that. But these Secret Service families have the same difficulties. They also have to serve at a moment's notice for whatever we decide to do. So we might call up our lead agent and say, "You know what, I think we want to go for a bike ride today." So, boom, immediately they've got to get everybody in place. They've got to get their bikes out. They've got to get our bikes out. They've got to go to a bike path that they've already scouted out in their free time.

It's a complicated thing just to go for a bike ride or go to a movie or to get some ice cream at the grocery store or whatever, take a walk. And so it's a kind of job where they don't really know what their job is going to entail each and every day. [00:28:06] 

For me, when I went back to teaching at the school where I had taught art for 12 years when my kids were there, when Mike was in Congress, called me when I was second lady and said, "Our art teacher just left and we would love it if you could maybe just fill in or can you just help us out a little bit?" And I ended up teaching there for my last three years as second lady. Even during that time, there would be Secret Service agents out in the hallway. 

It's a very strange thing to have someone around you all the time. One of the things that they do in the Secret Service is they rotate and change your detail all the time. So I would just get used to the people on my detail.

There would usually be six to eight people who were assigned to me at any one time. Then they would come to me and say, "Okay, they're moving on. They're going to their next assignment," and I'd get brand new people. [00:29:14] 

It's a little bit daunting to have new people. Sometimes I'd walk out to the car and I'd say, "I hope you guys are the real people because I've never seen you before and you're a brand new person with me today." So it's kind of a daunting thing to have someone who is constantly around you that you don't necessarily know very well. 

Then on the flip side, you know, I tell the story in the book about how amazing... I talk about one agent, Max Million, who was our very first agent starting at the convention and going all the way through until he took over. He was with Kamala Harris on the day she took her oath. So Max was with us the whole time. He traveled with our daughter, Audrey, when she took foreign trips as a college student. 

You know, imagine being a college student who has a Secret Service agent with you all the time. It's pretty annoying to a college student. [00:30:18] They had their good moments and their bad moments. 

But when Audrey got married, Max is the agent she wanted to be on her detail that day. It's a very sweet thing to work through some of these difficulties with these agents because we're brand new to this. This is their life. But they very graciously kind of help us to adjust to having them there all the time. But they are wonderful men and women. Truly, truly wonderful men and women.

Laura Dugger: Yes. I learned so much from your chapter and just really grew in empathy for you both as you let us in on the things we wouldn't be aware of, how they were outside your bathroom and down the hall as you got a late-night snack or, like you said, in college, along for your kids' dates and just always having eyes watching. But then really also you flip the script so well. And we consider their family life having to be so flexible to change plans with little notice. [00:31:27] So I really appreciated that. 

But you've been both First Lady of Indiana and Second Lady of the United States, which are roles that all of us listening will probably never have the chance to experience. So will you let us in on any other surprising parts of both of these roles of service?

Karen Pence: Well, one of the things I wanted to do when I wrote the book and my staff said to me, "If you don't write a book, we're going to write it" because there were a lot of great initiatives that we were able to champion. 

When I became first lady, I just felt like, "Okay, now people are taking my phone call. I mean, I actually am in a position of influence. What am I going to do with that opportunity?" Because the time is short. That's one of the things I try and encourage the reader to think about in your own life. [00:32:28] Your opportunities sometimes are just for a short period of time. And for me, that was true. 

So as first lady of Indiana, one of the things I did, I tell the story about how a friend of mine, Patty Coons, kept coming to me and saying, "You need to have a first lady's luncheon like we do in Washington every year. You're the first lady of Indiana now and you need to do this." I actually reached a point where I was afraid to even answer her phone call. Finally, I said, "Patty, I can't give a luncheon for myself. That doesn't even make any sense." 

However, I found as I, you know, grew into the role of first lady at many, many, many organizations wanted me to champion their cause, but I knew I couldn't do that. So what I ended up doing was I started the Indiana First Lady's Charitable Foundation. We did have a first lady's luncheon, a very high-end luncheon, custom tablecloths, a surprise entertainer, custom gift bags for every attendee. [00:33:43] And we raised money for charities in all 92 counties that championed families and kids.

So for me, I finally figured out a way to take this suggestion from my friend and turn it into a way that now I could say to all of these groups that were reaching out to me, I could just say, go ahead and apply for a grant because we're giving out grants for anything that actually benefits the family. For me, I wanted to just kind of figure out, how can I take this moment and make the most of it? 

We did the same thing in the office of the second lady. When I became second lady, Barbara Bush sent me a note and she said, "Karen, congratulations on being second lady. When I was second lady, I woke up every morning trying to do something good for someone, and the press never paid any attention to me." [00:34:50] But when George became the nominee for president, my tongue started getting me into trouble. And it's gotten me into trouble ever since. 

And I realized, you know, the office of the second lady, we really didn't get much attention for some of the things that we were doing but it didn't really stop me or my small staff from really making a difference. We championed art therapy, especially for our veterans and we worked with lifting up our military spouses.

You know, I like to say they're the home front heroes and they need a lot of support. They really kind of keep the home going while their service member is deployed and they have to move every two or three years. 

Then we also champion just beekeeping actually. When I was first lady of Indiana, I heard about another first lady who started a beehive and how she used that with their constituents in their state. And I thought, "What a great idea." I mean, we hear all the time that our bees are struggling. The governor's residence was on six acres and so I started a beehive there. [00:36:10] 

Then when I became second lady, I started a beehive at the vice president's residence. Then every time we took a trip or traveled with Mike anywhere in the world or the United States, my staff and I would just tag on a little visit to visit the beekeepers in that particular community. 

Actually, one of the things that we did, we tried to do several different events kind of centered around the bees. We would have kids come to the vice president's residence and teach them about the bees and teach them about ways that all of us can support bees. 

For example, one of the things we had the kids do was we said, If you just live in an apartment, you can go out on your balcony and you can put a little bowl with rocks in it and fill it with water. And then the bees can kind of stand on those rocks and they can get a drink. [00:37:12] Or if you plant a pollinator garden. 

So these are a lot of different things that we did to kind of educate people about ways they can help bees in their community. We learned so much about the bees, so much so that in the book, When It's Your Turn to Serve, I actually start every chapter with a little fun bee fact, because I learned that if God can give this little honeybee everything that it needs, surely he can give me what I need when He calls me to service.

Laura Dugger: Do you have any other favorite facts about bees or even deeper life lessons that you've learned from bees?

Karen Pence: Well, I think, one of the fun things for me was when I was writing the book and I wrote it with my daughter Charlotte. She's a published author and we've done some other projects before. So I said to her, "I have this idea that I'd like to start each chapter with a bee fact." It really was so much fun for us. [00:38:24] 

For example, there's one chapter where I talk about how all of our kids got married between the election 2016 and the election 2020. I mean, all three of our kids got married in that time period. And two of them actually had two weddings because our son is in the military. So they had a small wedding and then their big wedding later. 

And then Audrey was a COVID bride. So she ended up having a small wedding and then her larger wedding later after COVID. So I thought, you know, it'd be fun for that chapter, let's talk about the fact that when a hive gets too big, the bees will swarm. So some of the bees will actually leave the hive. 

So I just tried to find a bee fact that kind of went with whatever I was talking about in that particular chapter. The Secret Service chapter, the bee fact is about the guard bees, you know, just little things like that. [00:39:25] But it really was interesting everywhere I went to hear some fascinating thing about the bees. 

I remember I was in Montana and a beekeeper said to me, "Well, you can see the ones coming back to the hive they're the ones who are flying lower to the ground." And I said, "How can you possibly know which bees are leaving the hive and which ones are coming back? How can you possibly know that?" 

And he said, "Oh, it's very easy." He said, "The ones who are coming back to the hive, their little pollen sacks on their legs are full of pollen. And they're flying lower to the ground because they have that weight of the pollen in their little pollen sacks." And when I looked closer, I could see these little yellow spots on the bees that were lower to the ground. And they were the ones that were returning to the hive. 

But the book is just full of fun little facts about the bees and how they communicate and how they build the honeycomb. [00:40:30] Every single bee makes the honeycomb the same way. And it's on a slight slant so that the larvae, if the larvae are in the comb or if honey is in there, so that it doesn't fall out. 

It's just fascinating to me that God would take each bee and impart that wisdom into them. And each one has that DNA in them. So I learned a lot about myself and about God just by learning little facts about the bees.

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content.

And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out. [00:41:31] 

Well, you've also incorporated art in some thoughtful ways, almost as Ebeneezers in your life. And even the inside of your book includes your beautiful watercolor. But will you just share a few ways that art has captured meaningful moments in your life?

Karen Pence: Well, I realized when I started looking back over all my watercolors over the years that they kind of coordinated with different chapters of the book. Years before Mike was governor, I had actually done a watercolor of the governor's residence for a fundraiser that they did there. I had done a watercolor of the vice president's residence. I had done a watercolor... Like one of the things I talk about is when I had the privilege of leading two different delegations to the Special Olympics World Games. I share the watercolor that I painted to give a print to each one of the participants, each one of the athletes. [00:42:36] 

And so I started realizing almost every chapter has a watercolor that kind of goes with it. What we ended up doing was the middle section of the book is actually full of different watercolors that I've done. I did a whole set of hummingbirds because that was my code name that the Secret Service gave me. So just little things I realized. So we can kind of put the watercolors in here, you know, instead of actual photographs. 

But over the years, when I first started learning about art therapy, I was fascinated, Laura, that I was visiting a children's hospital in Washington and these kids were asking when do I get to come back to the hospital? Because they had worked with an art therapist and they had art projects that were not completed. 

I started learning about the profession of art therapy. And while I have a master's degree in art education, I am not an art therapist. [00:43:39] I was fascinated by these art therapists who are master's and doctorate-level trained therapists who use art in their therapy sessions. In fact, still today, just last week, I'm involved again now that we're back in Indiana with the art therapists at Riley Hospital for Children in Indiana. 

And I started realizing that art therapy is used as well for our veterans or anyone who struggles with post-traumatic stress disorder. Anyone who's gone through any type of stress and learning how the side of the brain that is affected by trauma is the verbal side. A lot of times our vets come back and they can't talk about what happened to them and they can't seem to share. And they're struggling with anger or fear or relationships. The art therapists are able to use art to help them get some of those feelings out so that then they can start to express themselves and heal. [00:44:50] And I started hearing about some of these success stories.

One that I talk about in the book is a Marine named Chris Stowe. He had tried everything and was just really, really struggling. He was having marriage difficulties and all kinds of issues. What the art therapist was able to do was to find something that Chris could do that would help him get to the root issue of what he actually needed to deal with. 

It was actually glassblowing. Chris discovered that the furnace of the fire and the glassblowing and the molten glass was something that really, really helped him. Now he actually has a glassblowing studio that other vets come to and work. 

I mean, the book is full of these stories of all these different amazing stories. And I just was fascinated with this.  I knew that if I, as someone with a master's degree in art education, didn't know about art therapy, there probably were a lot of people out there who didn't know about art therapy. [00:46:05] 

So I tell the story in the book about how my staff and I started at the very beginning and became educated about how art therapy started, where it started, some of the success stories. And then we visited art therapists literally all over the world.

There's some fabulous stories in there about ways that we were able to help even get an art therapy program started in Japan. It was a wonderful experience, I think, for me and for my entire staff. 

We tell another story. This is one your listeners might relate to. 

We had... it's a program called Combat Paper. And what happens is when a military member gets out of the military, it's very difficult because this has been their identity for, what, 12, 15, 20, 30 years. And they have worn their uniform almost every single day of that service. [00:47:05] Tell the story of how Combat Paper started in California and the service member will take their uniform and they will cut it into little tiny pieces.

They put those pieces into a pulp machine, which kind of grinds them up like a blender. And then they roll that pulp out into a piece of paper, a very thick piece of paper, and they let it dry. And then on that paper, they put some kind of new image, whether they use a stencil that's provided or a drawing of their own or painting or words. But they take that old identity and they change it into something new. 

This is just one example of all the amazing things that our art therapists do every single day with our vets and people with cancer, children in hospitals, people who have gone through some kind of stress in their life. [00:48:06] The stories in the book are just fascinating to see how art can be used.

Laura Dugger: I appreciated your stories so much. Even thinking within your marriage, there are two stories that come into mind. One, that your husband used to draw cartoons, I believe, for the newspaper when he was in law school. Is that right?

Karen Pence: Yeah, it was just a little local law school paper.

Laura Dugger: I just loved that you had the idea to go back and publish all of his cartoons and bind them together to gift to him. Also, when you'd captured a picture of the two red-tailed hawks on the ledge of part of the White House and you had that framed, it was just so inspiring and a great reminder to incorporate and preserve art in our own lives to capture and remember some specific ways that God is moving. [00:49:08] 

Karen Pence: Very true. Very true.

Laura Dugger: Well, is there any other scripture that God has used to personally encourage you that you would like to pass along as encouragement to each of us?

Karen Pence: One of the things I wanted to do in the book was weave scriptures throughout. Because, you know, one thing Mike and I do is every morning we read the Bible together and we just get out our reading through the Bible in a year. It's just a great way for us to see how scripture comes alive in both of our lives every single morning.

Even though we read through the Bible many times, every single time we read a scripture, it has something new for us. There have been scriptures that I shared in the book that I've clung to. You know, I mentioned that we moved 18 times and that could be... I mean, I tell some of the stories in the book that just, I mean, you would not believe the circumstances where we had to move and move suddenly. [00:50:09] 

One of the verses is in Deuteronomy and it says that God will go before us and search out places for us to camp. And I have clung to that verse so many times. When I have friends move or when I have my kids looking for a place to move, you know, I say, "Let's just start praying this verse, and let's claim this verse that God will go before you and search out places for you to camp."

Then there's another verse later where God settled Israelites in their homes and He gives us that grace. So that's a verse that we've clung to a lot. 

I know another one that, you know, is kind of our family verse is Jeremiah 29:11. "For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." It's something to remember. [00:51:08] I look back over my life and some of the stories we've shared today, some of the difficulties and the struggles, and knowing that God really did have my best in mind the whole time. He really does want the best for us. 

So Jeremiah 29, 11 is one that over the years we've just… we've clung to it. It hangs over our mantle. I gave it to Mike, a big framed version of it when we first moved to Washington in 2000. And now it hangs in every house we've moved to since then. It's hung over the mantle and it does even to this day.

Laura Dugger: Well, Mrs. Pence, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your book. If anybody else wants to pick up their own copy or if we just desire to continue learning from you elsewhere after this chat, where would you direct us to go?

Karen Pence: Probably the easiest way to get the book is on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. [00:52:11] It's an easy way. But also in the audio version where I read the book from cover to cover. I also have a Twitter handle @KarenPence on Instagram. I don't post as much these days as I did when I was in office. But I do things on there from time to time. 

One of the things I'm doing now is I just did a book signing with the congressional spouses. I knew that they would relate to this book a lot. I do presentations for pastors’ wives. I'm getting ready next month to speak to the Republican Governors Association to the spouses there. So I do like to get out and talk about the book, especially with the church group.

So you might see something your listeners might see that I'm going to be maybe in their area doing a presentation. But the best way to get the book is probably just on Amazon or Barnes & Noble. [00:53:10] 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will provide a link in the show notes for today's episode. You may already be aware that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Mrs. Pence, what is your savvy sauce?

Karen Pence: Honestly, I would say, Laura, that my savvy sauce is just to relax and take a breath. Trust God. He really does have your best in mind with all the things that we go through in life.

So my savvy sauce would just be to trust Him. He has a calling for your life and He has plans for you. He's given each one of you your own special, unique gifts, your own passions, your own abilities and opportunities. So don't be afraid to step out and trust Him. 

That's what I've found over the years, that if I just open up my hands and let go and let God, she has a very fulfilled life, and He's given me. And He will do the same for you when it's your turn to serve. [00:54:31] 

Laura Dugger: That's so good. You're bringing us back to the beginning of Jonah 2:8. "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs." I love this conversation, how I got to learn about the ways that God has blessed you with grace upon grace. 

Mrs. Pence, your service to our country and your words penned on these pages have impacted people you may never get the chance to meet. But I want to say thank you on behalf of all of us listening. Thank you for inspiring us to seek God first and thank you for sharing your journey of Him extending that grace upon grace in your life. Thank you so much for being my guest.

Karen Pence: Thank you, Laura. It's been a privilege.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. [00:55:39] 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:44] 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:50] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

222 Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black

Disclaimer: This podcast episode includes adult themes that are not intended for young ears.

 

222. Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black

 

James 5:16 (AMP) "Therefore, confess your sins to one another [your false steps, your offenses], and pray for one another, that you may be healed and restored. The heartfelt and persistent prayer of a righteous man (believer) can accomplish much [when put into action and made effective by God—it is dynamic and can have tremendous power]."

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Are there any common denominators present in these men and women who struggle with pornography addiction?

2. Satan can make people feel like this stronghold will last forever, but what hope can you share with someone engaged in this battle right now?

3. What would be helpful for the church to understand, speak about, and offer as resources for healing and recovery?

 

Sam Black is a renowned author and expert in the field of pornography recovery. As the Director of Recovery Education at Covenant Eyes, he brings a wealth of experience to his work, having joined the organization in 2007 after a distinguished 18-year career as an award-winning journalist. Sam is the author of two groundbreaking books: "The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong About Pornography and How to Fix It" and "The Porn Circuit: Understand Your Brain and Break Porn Habits." He has also edited 16 other books on the impact of pornography and regularly speaks at parenting, leadership and men's events across the country. Sam's deep knowledge and compassionate approach have helped countless individuals and families find healing and hope.

 

The Healing Church Website

 

The Victory App (Through Covenant Eyes)

 

Sam's Email Address: sam.black@covenanteyes.com

 

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

91 Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

Do you love to travel? If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, Dream Seller Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamSellerTravel.com. 

Sam Black is my guest today. He is Director of Recovery Education at Covenant Eyes, and he's also the author of The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong about Pornography and How to Fix It, which is truly such an amazing book that I want to encourage everyone to add it to their list to read.

In our conversation today, we're going to cover many topics, including the common denominators present with people who struggle with pornography, practical ways to protect our children against the onslaught of pornography and its harmful effects, and hopeful ways people struggling with this issue can be victorious over this stronghold and live in freedom with Christ. [00:01:38] This is a beneficial conversation for every parent, spouse, and church leader. Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sam.

Sam Black: Laura, thank you so much for having me. We're going to have a great conversation.

Laura Dugger: Well, first off, I would love for you just to share your personal journey that led you to this work that you're doing today.

Sam Black: Oh man, that's a long story. But maybe the short part of this is over the past 16 years I've served at an organization called Covenant Eyes. Covenant Eyes creates, of course, software, accountability software, that helps people be more open about how they're using their devices. But also we provide a lot of education. 

Over those years, I've heard so many people talk about a journey toward real and lasting freedom, but so often they said, "My church didn't help me very much." And I knew that that wasn't the right answer. [00:02:37] So I wrote The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong about Pornography and How to Fix It, so that we can equip churches with a better understanding of why people get stuck, why they often stay stuck without help, and how we can provide real and lasting freedom, but also healing for marriages and relationships. 

So I traveled to churches across the United States that were doing this work well, interviewed more than 70 pastors and ministry leaders to help them press into this issue rather than finding it too taboo. And so we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We can look at churches who are doing this work well and learn from what they're doing and we can become a healing church.

Laura Dugger: I really can't sing your praises enough for this resource. It's not an easy read because it's a difficult topic and yet it is so important. And it left me wanting to share this with the elders at our church and to hopefully become one of those healing churches. [00:03:42] 

But I love your stance, Sam, because you're not saying this in any condescending tone. You are very candid about your personal struggle with pornography in the past.

Sam Black: Well, I have found that my story is not unique. It's a common story. There's three components to how people get stuck with pornography. It is the early exposure to pornography, one. Number two, it's the ongoing use and repetition, especially in adolescence. And number three, some trauma or drama that's often happened early in life, but can happen elsewhere as well.

I was 10 years old when I first saw pornography. I remember coming out of my home in Florida and my brother and his friend were leaning up against their car looking at a magazine sideways. That didn't make any sense to me. How can you read sideways? And I asked what they were looking at and they turned it around. Even though I grew up in a Christian home, I was naturally curious and took a step forward. I didn't turn away.  [00:04:44] 

Now, I also had a friend and his dad had pornography that was just falling out of his closet. There were stacks of it. If you can imagine this normal closet with a shelf at the top and stacks of pornography that were leaning over and falling and there's a pile of it on the floor. It sort of looked like a waterfall. And I could take anything I wanted and I did.

But the third part of this component for me was even though I grew up in a Christian home, my father was a hypocritically violent person. He would rage a lot. I didn't realize it at the time that though pornography might have been provoking curiosity and interest, though it may have felt good, I had flipped it to escapism where I felt fear and frustration, and anger. I could run to pornography and then those triggers that would have me going to pornography would expand to things like boredom or frustration. [00:05:44] Or maybe I got bullied at school. Maybe I don't feel good about myself. Whatever those things were, I could run to pornography as a salve to anesthetize my emotions and to regulate my moods.

Laura Dugger: And I'm wondering how many people are connecting with various parts of your story right now. Let's even just go one step further. Let's lay the groundwork for this conversation. Can you define sexual addiction?

Sam Black: Well, let's look at something very simple. Regardless of where we can be addicted to substances or behaviors, things that have become repetitively and they're impacting us. And even when we say, no, I don't want to go there, I find myself doing it, even though I've said, "I'm tired of this. I don't want this in my life anymore. I'm over this. I promised myself, I promised God, I promised others I'm never going back." 

And despite maybe some consequences or other things that are going on in my life, I continue to go back. That's, I think, a good layperson's description of pornography. [00:06:51] Despite your best decision-making, you can't seem to overcome what is so impactful for you.

Laura Dugger: And yet, even in your book, you talk about the hope that we'll continue to unpack. But I kind of want to circle back to what you were first connecting with your story, those three components. Because it relates to something that you write near the beginning on page six, where you say about two-thirds of Christian men and one-third of Christian women say they have an ongoing struggle as porn.

Sam Black: When you look at that a little deeper, when you break those numbers down a little bit further, 37% of men 18 to 30 say they're watching pornography daily. 36% of men of all ages, regardless of age, 36% say they're watching multiple times a week. And about 14% of women. [00:07:50] 

You say, hey, what's some descriptor of addictive behavior? That's where I'm really focusing, that 37% and 36% and 14%. Those numbers are saying for many of those people, they're like, "I have promised myself, I've promised God, I promised others I'll never go back, and yet I still keep coming back." 

You know that we talked about that early exposure and ongoing repetition. Well, I told you a complete story about the first time that I saw pornography. Remember coming out of my Florida home, etc. And because the way our neurology, way our brains are built, way God designed them, they recognize emotional on shocking and impactful experiences. And that's why whenever I talk to adults who saw pornography first as a child, almost all of them can tell me a complete story because it's so impactful on that young brain. [00:08:50] 

Laura Dugger: And even that you say compulsive porn users were typically exposed early. That was a theme throughout your book. And I think that helps to usher in a little bit of compassion for an adult who is struggling with this. Typically, this isn't something that they sought out and we're pursuing. This was something that started early in childhood. Is that right?

Sam Black: That's right. Today, especially. Let's revisit this again about that early exposure. So dopamine kicks off. Dopamine loves novelty, something that's never seen before. In God's design, dopamine, when sexual cues are picked up, even though a child doesn't understand "what am I feeling", they often see pornography even before they understand the basics of sex. But nonetheless, they feel the sensations in their body that they don't really understand. And it can focus their attention to the point of tunnel vision.

Now, in God's design, that's beautiful. Sexual cues are picked up with your spouse and you're focused on your spouse, the rest of the world disappears. [00:09:53] God's design. Beautiful. 

Pornography is not sex. It's a hijacking of what God created. And so when that child sees that, often today, it's very shocking, demeaning, violent, often video, etc. So that experience can be even more shocking and even more impactful on that young brain today. 

Now, what plays with this memory as well is norepinephrine that's associated with fight or flight. So as a child is being shocked by what they're seeing as well, it's even further burning that memory into their brain. So then the ongoing repetition, the youth through adolescence, we actually build neural pathways in our brains. When we do activities over and over, it actually creates neural pathways in our brain that either seek out rewarding experiences or you may have tried to do something for the first time and it was hard. But you did it a few times and your brain learned how to do that. Right? It created a neural pathway to make that easier to do. [00:10:58] 

Well, when things like pornography are producing dopamine and giving you a spritz of something that feels good, well, that even creates that neural pathway even more. And so people get stuck in what I call the porn rut. They become very sensitive to pornography. Doesn't take much to turn them on. In other words, they become desensitized to pornography, being that after they've seen it a few times, the brain says, "Hey, I've seen this before and I'm not going to give you as much dopamine for this image that you've repeatedly seen." 

And so people find themselves going to chase the original high. They need a bigger dose. They need something more, more often or more violent, more demeaning or any number of things. So that desensitization. It's often said that pornography will take you places you never thought you'd go, do things you never thought you'd do, hurt people you never thought you'd hurt, pay a price you never thought you'd pay. That's where desensitization leads us. [00:12:00] 

The final part of that is compulsiveness. That prefrontal cortex of the brain, which, by the way, doesn't fully develop until the late 20s. That's why we pay so much for our kids' car insurance. It is very hard for a young person to be making... their feeling brain, their excitement brain is very well developed. That's why kids can be very emotional. 

But their prefrontal cortex, the decision-making, the executive functioning part of the brain isn't yet fully developed. So trying to just think that, without training, our kids will just simply look away, we're setting them up for failure in that way. So we need to help equip our kids.

Let me go back to that point. I'm sorry. That compulsiveness that we talked about, that prefrontal cortex of the brain is very weak. And it's decision-making when it comes to pornography. Maybe you do a great job of making other decisions. [00:13:00] But when sexual cues are picked up or pornography cues are picked up, you'd be very sensitive to it, you'd become desensitized to what you're seeing. And the compulsiveness to go after it is seemingly overwhelming for the individual.

Laura Dugger: Even as a parent, this is so sobering to hear the power of the brain that seems to be against us and then clearly our enemy, the devil, who wants to pounce on this and make it difficult. So I am going to insert just a little bit of good news that you write about on page 43. Again, I'm going to quote you where you write, "Being exposed to porn as a child doesn't produce porn addicts. This is most true of kids and families that communicate well and bond well. Parents also can train their kids to be resilient to porn."

Sam Black: That's right. That is the good news. [00:14:00] When we are equipping our kids, we can help make them more resilient to this. They know what's coming after them. And so when they see it, they go, "Oh, I know what that is. That's not for me. I'm going to turn, run and tell." We can really teach and equip our kids to do that.

I talk about that in the book, about how parents are doing that well, how churches are also equipping their parents because right where we are not instructing our parents, they don't really know what to do. So this is a great opportunity for the church, again, to step in and help protect the next generation.

You may have heard of the parable about a person is walking by the river and they see someone drowning and they reach out and they pull that person to shore. And then a few minutes later, they find somebody else struggling in the water and so they pull them out to safety.

And after a while, they figure out, you know, it's not enough just to build a hospital here where these people were dragging them out of the river. We need to go upstream and see who's pushing them in. [00:15:03] What's happening up front that people are falling into the river in the first place?

So we can equip and train our parents so they can equip and train their kids and disciple their kids so they can be resilient again to a culture that is often thrusting pornography at them.

Laura Dugger: Definitely. I even see in conversations with other moms I know with younger children, they worry, is this going to be robbing their innocence if we talk about these things? But my take is that God designed sex. And so it is beautiful and wonderful. It's innocent if it's kept within the boundaries that He made it for. So obviously being age-appropriate. But it seemed like we were in agreement. 

In your book, you had another theme of being in conversation with our children. This is actually going to set them up well and protect them more so they're not seeking out this knowledge with Google or friends. [00:16:02] 

Sam Black: I think it's worth taking a minute here and hitting the five myths of what parents often think about or five myths parents believe that really keep them from having these conversations. One is my kid is a good kid and they would never be curious about sex and would never look at pornography. They'd never be curious.

But I was curious. Every child is naturally curious about what the opposite sex looks like without clothes. Usually, it's common for children to see other children's bodies. And that's as far as the curiosity goes. We're just seeing other children's bodies. But when children see pornography, they're both seeing adult bodies, often shocking behavior, it's a totally different thing that's so impactful on that young brain.

Number two, if my child saw it, they just look away. We've missed the neurology behind why it can be so impactful on that young brain. 

Number three, the measures I have in place are good enough. Typically this means occasionally looking over their shoulder to see what's on their screen. [00:17:04] And this isn't working. Over and over again, I hear parents say, "My kids first saw pornography on my watch, in my kitchen, in my living room, in my car." I remember talking to a mom saying that they were on her way to a state park and she handed over her phone because her son and his cousin wanted to see where they were going and grandma and mom are sitting in the front seat and hey, everybody's together. So no dangers here, right?

They look at the state park in the back seat and then the cousin says, "Hey, I dare you to look up this word." And that was the first time her 8-year-old son saw pornography in the back seat of her car. And I have heard that story repeated many, many times.

Number four, "Boys are the only ones who struggle. We don't have to worry about our girls." What I find is that this is just not true. Of course, I understated that by a bunch. 

I remember a 15-year-old girl coming to the Covenant Eyes booth and saying, "Hey, I brought my dad here to sign up for Covenant Eyes because when I was 15, I heard some boys say some words that I didn't understand. [00:18:11] And so I asked my dad for his phone because he didn't allow me to have my own phone. And that's where I first saw pornography. I don't know why I couldn't stop clicking. Then I would intentionally go back to my mom and dad and ask them for their phones over the next two and a half years, intentionally seeking out pornography. Smart enough to hide what I was doing. Only by accident did my parents find out what was going on."

Number five, "If I talk to my child about pornography, they will become curious and search for it." What we find is if we do some good training with some good resources that are available, we can make our children more resilient. 

Every professional in the sphere says the same thing. We can equip our kids with valuable information that helps them become more resilient versus leaving them on their own to make their own choices about this. They're just unequipped. [00:19:15] 

Laura Dugger: That is so helpful, Sam. What I love about this conversation, I can see us just vacillating back and forth between the adult who's entrapped in this. And as parents, as we're learning more that this is so prevalent to begin in childhood, I think it's equipping us to know how to protect them.

A few more pieces that are likely to be present for when adults are going to struggle with this. So as children, you talk about if they are repeatedly and compulsively acting out on this behavior, using porn to medicate negative feelings, or if trauma and sexual abuse is involved. So can you share a little bit more about those as well?

Sam Black: Yeah. As adults, if we take a minute and look back, there's this thing called the addiction cycle. Our wounds in life have created a negative belief system. [00:20:14] Now, this negative belief system is often covered over with our careers and our hobbies and our sports and activities. But when we're alone, when we have self-doubt, when we have anger, we have equipped and trained our brains, our mind, body, and spirit that says, "Hey, I need relief. I need to escape this feeling. 

So when negative emotions are picked up, we call that a trigger or what have you. I break triggers down into three areas. What I call See, S-E-E, See triggers, social, emotional, and environmental. 

So a social trigger might be how you have engaged with others in any number of ways that maybe it's triggering as you're interacting with someone or maybe they are actually doing things that are inappropriate that could be triggering for you.

Environmental and emotional triggers. [00:21:16] I think we understand what those are as well. And those triggers say, hey, I need to either escape or I feel like I need relief from this and begins a preoccupation with fantasy, which often then leads to a ritual where you're seeking out pornography.

Once you act out with pornography, then there's this feeling of despair and toxic shame. And this shame says, "I promised myself, I promised God, I promised others I wouldn't go back down this path, and here I am again." And this shame is self-defeating. It's what I call self-hatred at my expense. A shame, self-hatred at my expense. 

And that shame says, "I can never get this right. God's ideals for sex and my purity are unattainable. And it reinforces a negative belief system that says, see, I'm never going to get this right. My worth is not quite... I'm not quite up to par." [00:22:18] 

And so after we wallow in that shame for a little while, we'll get back on track. It's like flipping a coin between perfectionism and shame. On one side, I'm always trying harder, working more, reading my scripture more, the Bible more, praying more, serving my family or my church more. That perfectionism can only last for so long and then that coin flips to shame and that wallowing in self-doubt, etc.

So we need to get out of the cycle. And we do that by having a safe place with a safe process. We need safety with one another. James 5:16 says, "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed." That's a formula, right? 

I don't mean to overemphasize formula part, but the confession is my part. My brothers in Christ who listen to me are hearing not only my confession of what I did, but they're asking me good questions. [00:23:24] They're asking me, "Well, what happened beforehand? And how did that make you feel? What were you thinking? What were you doing? What were you thinking of doing? 

And then God allows that relationship and His grace and His Holy Spirit to come and do some mending on the deeper factors, the roots that lead me back to pornography.

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Laura Dugger: To give us a more compassionate stance towards someone struggling with pornography, while also being careful not to excuse it, will you elaborate on ways intimacy deficiency or lack of secure attachment is at play?

Sam Black: You know, there are many wounds. We often think of maybe the physical or emotional abuse, which is very impactful. Very impactful. Sexual abuse, definitely very impactful for people who are struggling.

But sometimes we have been wounded in ways... There's what we call wax and lax. The wax are things that have been done to us, and the lax are things that we should have received but didn't.[00:26:35] 

Parental absence. You know, there's examples of children who've lost a parent. Maybe they've left. Maybe they died. Sometimes the impact of divorce can be very overwhelming, a disconnection. Maybe the child is blaming themselves for their parents being apart. But often divorce comes with wounding regardless. 

You know, we live in a culture where often both parents have to work. And sometimes our value in life has often been arranged around how successful we are in our careers. Sometimes our kids have paid a price, or maybe you as a child have paid a price for that. 

So these wounds are often not major trauma, but they're like the death of a thousand cuts. Little by little, this has impacted how you feel and think about yourself. [00:27:35] 

Another very unexpected wound that is very impactful for people, especially who struggle with pornography. In fact, 77% of men who struggle with pornography, see they came from homes with rigid rules. Now, there's nothing wrong with saying, "These are the movies we watch. This is the music we listen to. These are the guardrails we're putting up in our life." That's good.

But when we live in homes with rigid rules where it's simply lines in the sand that we don't cross, and crossing them is simply met with shame, maybe anger, maybe even violence, then those rigid environments have big impact on those kids. 

And so maybe they're looking for the loopholes to get through, but they know they can't talk with mom and dad about things that they might be struggling with, because that would just be met with more shame. So we need to be disciple-makers. [00:28:37] Discipline is about discipleship, about loving teaching, rather than simply lines in the sand that are met with very stringent backing. 

Maybe you've experienced that, and you're listening and you're going, Man, I never realized that these are some of the things that I've experienced. Maybe there needs to be a little empathy for yourself to understand, okay, these are some ways I am struggling, and these are why I'm struggling. 

But the good news is you don't have to stay there. You can learn to live in freedom.

Laura Dugger: Will you give us a taste of what that freedom can look like, and even personal stories where you've heard of breakthroughs for people who think they'll be trapped in this forever?

Sam Black: I often get this question from men and women who says, "Well, since I've developed this compulsive behavior or addiction to pornography, am I always going to be stuck?" [00:29:40] And the answer is no. You can live in freedom. You don't have to continue to have this ongoing fight. You can really grow. But it comes from community. 

Now, we talked about before, James 5:16. But if we look at Galatians 6, about gently correcting, that we need the body of Christ. When we have a safe place, it's okay to come just as you are. 

So often in the church today, we have this spectrum of safety. And on one side of the spectrum is it's okay to come just as you are. Everybody's got problems. Everybody's got faults. But you don't really have to deal with them because, you know, hey, you know, everybody's just got issues. You're never really called to change.

On the other side of the spectrum is it's not okay, especially for Christians to have any struggles in their life, especially a stronghold in their life, especially if they grew up in church. And it's not safe to come to talk about how you're struggling. [00:30:43] Because if you're struggling in that way, maybe you just don't belong with us. Maybe it's met with shame and… etc. 

What we need to be as a church is that center place where it's okay to come as you are. But we love you too much, even as a fellow Christian, that you're struggling. But we love you too much to let you have to walk that journey by yourself. We're going to walk alongside you. 

So a safe place and a safe process helps the individual to learn to understand how they're feeling. They become more aware, self-aware of all their emotions and their anger and how they react to it and all these other different aspects of their life. 

And when they go through a healing process, that process is not just simply, hey, how are you doing today? No, there's some guidelines. There's some ways to things you need to work on. And so it's a more formal process. [00:31:44] 

Then there's lots of resources like this. Let me give you a free one. It's called the Victory App by Covenant Eyes. There's more than almost 30 courses in there that walk you through: How did I get here? Why do I seem to stay stuck? How can I live in real freedom? Now you're beginning to understand how did I get here? And you're walking with someone else and doing that so that rather than leaning on your own willpower, you are growing in understanding, you're forming new habits, you are leaning on Christ. And you're doing that with a brother or sister in Christ.

Laura Dugger: I love that so much. I'm going to focus in on the word "process". It makes me think of progressive sanctification. There's such an art to this process because if you're trying to create safety in the church, if someone comes and confesses to you, "I wish I didn't struggle with this," and they share, I don't think it's most helpful to begin with, "Yes, this is a sin. [00:32:50] This is why you're wrong." And some condemnation where that is true, this is a sin, this is wrong. But what's your take on that with the process of starting there? Because to me, it seems like it shuts down vulnerability.

Sam Black: Right. We need that safety that sometimes we just need to get things out. We don't need that ally or friend or a group to give us all the answers or tell us what we're doing wrong. I do talk about in the book how the purity sermon isn't very effective for people who are struggling deeply with this because they already know they need to be pure. They wish they knew how. They really want to escape this.

And so a structured recovery process really allows someone to be discipled well. It's an opportunity for deep discipleship. I had to recognize that I built my own cage. Brick by brick and bar by bar. And I locked the door and threw away the key. And by the way, nobody keeps the key. [00:33:58] 

So I needed others to come into my life and help me unlock the door and show me to walk me out because left to my own willpower, left my own patterns of behavior. I want to go back to what was familiar. If I felt fear or anger, frustration, sadness, whatever, then I want to anesthetize those emotions, regulate that mood in the way that I've learned to do so well over so many years.

But when I got in a safe group, now I could understand. I can actually stop and think about: how am I feeling? What's going on? What's leading to that emotion? How can I sit with that emotion? All those kinds of things.

I know that sounds so simple, but it's very hard for most adults to do. We use a lot of things, just food and shopping and alcohol or drugs or pornography or other things. These are simply means to help cope with something in our lives that feels very uncomfortable. [00:35:03] 

How can we begin learning to sit with those emotions? How do we recognize our triggers when they come? I tell a story about my own life. This will sound sad for many of your listeners. And listen, I can tell the story because I've processed it with others and I get to come out on either side more whole. But I think it provides a good example of how the process with fellow believers can renew the mind, body, and spirit.

All right. When I was 12 years old, I was helping my dad in our shed and there was a rope that was coiled up or a mess, I should say, on the shed floor. And this rope beforehand had been the back of our pickup in Florida and had been rained on and sunshined on. In Florida, it rains and rains every day at about five o'clock and then the sun comes back out. So this rope had been baked into a mess.

My dad said, "Hey, I want you to pick up that rope and to coil it." And so I put it in one hand and began wrapping it around my elbow, hand to elbow, hand to elbow. And he goes, "No, no, no, I don't want you to do it that way. I want you to do it hand over hand." I said, "Okay." [00:36:15] I've never done that before. And when I would try to do it hand over hand, this messy rope would twist or turn. And so it wouldn't be the perfect loop. 

So when it would twist or turn, my dad would hit me in the head or the back or the face and he would tell me I was stupid and I couldn't get anything right and I was dummy. I would panic and then go back to coiling that rope over my elbow and hand and hit some more. 

So when I became a teenager and an adult, whenever I picked up a rope or extension cord or whatever else to coil it, I would go back to that 12-year-old boy. Now, I didn't recognize it at the time that I would likely look at pornography that day to anesthetize those emotions, to escape from those feelings, because I wouldn't just go back in time and remember that. I literally went back in time and felt like I was there again. [00:37:23] 

So how does a safe process and a safe place, safe people help me make different choices? Well, as I began to process that memory with others, I also became equipped to, that whatever I coiled a rope, I could do something different.

And as I was doing it hand over hand, I would say, "How deep the Father's love for us." So I would sing and keep a beat to coiling that rope, I could lean on the Holy Spirit in my life to create renewal. I didn't have to go back in time and relive that emotion. I could recognize that, hey, this was triggering for me, that I am not there anymore, that I did not deserve those wounds, and that my Heavenly Father loves me deeply.

Now I can react totally different. Now I'm empowered by others to end a new mind frame, to react differently. [00:38:28] I can live in the present, not live in the past wounds. I can lean on my Father in Heaven and He is there for me. I can experience His healing in my life.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Sam, and when you share that story, especially when you started singing, tears come to my eyes. You were offering not only a sacrifice of praise, but God didn't create us as a vacuum where this empty space just exists. You are choosing to very practically fill it with our Good Father. I appreciate you sharing that journey to healing. 

As we've talked so much about the root of this and where a lot of this comes from, but I'm thinking of the families who are encountering this message, and if they've read your book, they could see this theme that Christian men and women who are compulsively engaging with pornography oftentimes are still in denial that they have an addiction. [00:39:37] So how can someone recognize if this is a problem in their life?

Sam Black: I think one of the first things we need to do is think about what does Jesus say about pornography? Because He's very clear that if you look at another and objectify them, then you are committing adultery. That's very clear in scripture.

First, we need to have Christ's standard in our life. But number two, not to treat His grace so cheaply. That we want to be like Christ, to follow Christ, like Paul says, as I follow Christ, follow me. We have a model to hold up. We have said to ourselves or to a spouse or to others that I don't want to do this anymore or that I promise I won't do this anymore? How has it impacted your relationships? How is it impacting your relationship with your heavenly father? [00:40:40] 

There is a number of studies that have been done and all these studies come to the same conclusion that there is a direct correlation between pornography use and increased religious doubts, less time in prayer and scripture, reduced church attendance. In fact, they found the direct correlation between pornography use and whether someone will serve in their church over the next six years. Are all these things impacting you?

And so, if you can't stop viewing pornography for 30 days, then maybe you might say, Wow, I do have some struggle. If it's occupying your thoughts in those 30 days, sometimes people white knuckle it, just try harder for a period of time and they just fight. But they are nonetheless fighting hard to keep this out of their life for just 30 days.

And if that's your struggle, then maybe there's some need to think more deeply about the wounds and the hurts, the impact of having watched pornography through adolescence, etc., maybe being exposed as a child. [00:41:49] So all these things are impacting you, then you might say, hey, I'm really struggling.

I think there's some ways you can begin thinking about this more deeply. Again, I mentioned that free app from Covenant Eyes called the Victory app. You can download it from any of your app stores. The Victory app by Covenant Eyes, again, helps you understand: How did I get here, why do I seem to stay here, and how can I live in freedom?

Laura Dugger: Are there any common warning signs to alert us to our spouse being addicted as well?

Sam Black: I'll talk about this in The Healing Church as well. By the way, you can download the first chapter of The Healing Church at thehealingchurch.com. So often we compartmentalize our lives.

Sometimes it is very difficult if they're working very hard at hiding it. But often if it's been found in the past, things that are appearing on your smart TV, or wait, we didn't think we watched that kind of thing, or that's very sexually edgy, or there's other streaming services that are coming on, or whatever it is. [00:43:04] If you've seen it happen a couple of times already, then likely it's happening more than you think, because people are pretty good at hiding their tracks.

They've become hiders over time, especially for those who are struggling. They've been hiding their pornography use for some time, and if it's coming out, it's probably even more so than you suspect.

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?

Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

I think that Satan can make people feel like this is a stronghold that will last forever. [00:44:07] But what practical hope can you share with someone who is engaged in this battle right now?

Sam Black: Paul talks about the renewing of the mind. What modern neurology teaches us is that, indeed, we can be renewed from a neurological level as well. It's called neuroplasticity, and simply means that the brain is more plastic than it is ceramic.

It used to be thought, though, when you got to a certain age, that's just the way you were. You were stuck no matter what happened. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

What neuroplasticity teaches us is that we can exchange behaviors that we don't want for behaviors we do want. We can create new neural pathways that are rewarding, exciting, fun, enjoyable. We don't have to stay stuck in our old patterns.

It's like a path in the woods. When you first went down that path, it became hard. There was lots of grass, trees in the way, shrubbery, and you got cleared that out. [00:45:07] And the more you walked it, the easier it became, the wider the path became. 

Well, that is true as well. When you begin ignoring that path, stop going down that path, well, the grass begins to grow over, the shrubbery comes back. And in favor of new neural pathways that lead to healthy and rewarding, exciting behaviors. 

As I mentor other men, I often ask them, what are you doing for fun? Often those who are struggling most deeply are often workaholics. They live, sometimes, lives of deprivation. They're not doing your... I don't... that sounds strange, but they work so hard. They do so much. When they want to seek out pornography, they're like, "Well, I've just deprived myself of so much. I deserve this. I need this." 

What we need to do is stop living a life of deprivation and one of God's joy. [00:46:10] God designed us for pleasure and enjoyment in our lives. There, we have the feelings of touch and sight and sound.

We have a great eBook at Covenant Eyes called Hobbies and Habits. And the whole idea is that you're exchanging negative behaviors for positive and joyful behaviors that God designed you for in the first place.

Laura Dugger: Yes. I love that you say that God designed you for in the first place, because it makes me think back to a previous episode with Arlene Pellicane. She talks about dopamine, which you've alluded to earlier in this episode, where we can wear out our pleasure center and the brain demands more and more and more dopamine that's not sustainable. And then we crash. And usually, that's one thing that can lead to depression. 

But then there's serotonin that is endlessly available and healthy for us. And we can experience some of those same feelings, those pleasures but that comes from getting enough sleep and, I believe, connecting with community and eating nutritious meals. [00:47:18] 

Sam Black: Yes. All of those are important in the recovery process, too.

Laura Dugger: Yes. So to lean into God's good design, like you're saying. Sam, what would be helpful for the church to understand and to speak about and to offer as resources for healing and recovery?

Sam Black: For pastors and ministry leaders listening, I just want to encourage you to press into this issue, one, and understand a little more about the issue at hand. That's what I did. That's why I created The Healing Church.

It's a primer to help pastors and ministry leaders better understand how do people get stuck, why they often stay stuck, and how can they live in freedom, and more importantly, how the church can step into that. 

What's been so encouraging is—I'm just thinking of the past couple of weeks—pastors have been inviting me to their churches and speaking to their congregations. I just went to a five-campus church in South Carolina, spoke at both morning services. [00:48:23] So that now the pastor is saying, "Hey, we recognize that this is an issue. We're not going to hide from it anymore. And we're willing to press in. We also want to offer you help and support." 

What was so interesting that after the end of my first session, they had 146 men and women sign up for their small groups to find real help and support and freedom from this. 

When we take away all the taboo and we start leaning in and having good conversations about this issue, because the world certainly isn't scared to talk about it. So we can begin having these conversations in the church and do it well. 

I was just at a church in Texas. They did the same thing for their congregation where they said, "Hey, we recognize that pornography is impactful on our families, on our children. We can talk about this in healthy ways that aren't shaming and that are empowering and lead to life change." We're a church that cares about people. We want to see them live a life of restoration and freedom. [00:49:32] 

And so that's one of the first things we, you know, sort of things we can do. Probably one of the easiest things that we can do is have a parents' training safety night where we're talking about the impact of pornography on children.

Well, when we understand how our children today are being impacted, well, all those parents and adults, they understand that, Oh, that's exactly how I was impacted. And so it begins taking away some of the fear and shame around the issue. We need to stop living lives of fear and shame because God knows all of our sin already. He is not fearful of our shame. He wants to see us live in His wholeness and freedom.

Laura Dugger: Well, I love how you respond to that, Sam. A few more things that I found throughout your book, just talking about sharing our stories and how powerful that is in church and really getting back to the heart of repentance, which is turning from sin by turning to God. [00:50:34] So you give us a lot of hope and a lot of practicality.

But will you also just share the vision you have for redeemed healers and for the church if they start stepping into this opportunity to become a healing church?

Sam Black: You know, I told you a little bit earlier about the surveys and studies that were done by both Christian universities and secular universities about how pornography is so impactful on religious doubts and prayer life and volunteerism in the church. 

What I discovered as I traveled the country visiting churches that were doing this work well is they were reversing all of that. They had increased church attendance, especially among those who had been struggling, who had been going through a safe process. Those people had stronger faith. They had greater wholeness in their life. 

You know, you can stop doing a habit and still be a jerk, right? We don't want that. We want people to live in greater wholeness in their relationships with their spouse, with their kids, with their church, with their community, with one another. [00:51:42] And overwhelmingly, people who had gone through a safe place and a safe process were excited to give back because you give away the freedom you've received.

So pastors on a regular basis at these churches were saying, "Sam, you've got to understand, I don't do more now because we do this work. I do less." Because having discipled people through a difficult and stronghold, they come out on the other side wanting to give that freedom to others. And they're saying, "Pastor, you need to volunteer for that. I can do that. Hey, you will need some help with doing that. I can do that. You need help discipling this person, I can be there for that."

So those pastors were excited about how they had turned people who were in misery into mentors. God can turn all their misery into ministry. 

That's what the exciting part about all of this work is, is people become more self-aware, more spiritually aware. [00:52:47] They find healing for their wounds, and then they want to give back. They are dangerous to the status quo. Having had an awakening, they pursue others, and they give away the hope they've received.

Laura Dugger: And that is certainly something you have done. If anyone wants to follow up after this conversation, where would you direct us online to continue learning from you?

Sam Black: You can learn more about The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong about Pornography and How to Fix It at thehealingchurch.com. You can also send me an email directly to me at sam.black@covenanteyes.com. Again, that's sam.black@covenanteyes.com.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Sam, what is your savvy sauce? [00:53:46] 

Sam Black: My savvy sauce is not to live alone, but live in community. So often we become isolated in things that we struggle with. We don't want to let anyone else know about.

But I'm making it as part of my living and life to have others in my life, to meet with on a regular basis, to practice some James 5:16, and to grow a little bit in my own awareness and recognizing I'm not perfect. But living with others so that I can be just a little more self-aware and grow a little bit more.

Laura Dugger: Well, Sam, you are such a knowledgeable and gentle mentor. I'm so grateful for your resource and for your time today. You're such a respectable man, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

Sam Black: Oh, you're so kind. Thank you for having me. What a joy it's been to share this. [00:54:46] I hope all your listeners found it valuable today.

Laura Dugger: I believe they will. Thank you. 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:55:51] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:56:51] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:57:56] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

*Apology and Gospel Update*

**Transcription Below**

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] Earlier this year, I was spending some of my quiet time with the Lord reflecting on this scripture. "He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes so that it will be even more fruitful." That's found in John 15:2.

These follow-up questions were helpful to process. First, what branch needs to be cut off in my life right now? Second, where do I see fruit? And third, what needs to be pruned? 

A few days later, God revealed something that needs to be pruned through the willingness of a friend to speak truth in love. 

So here's the backstory. There are a few of us friends who get together monthly for a potluck dinner. And Mark and I look so forward to this time together and it's filled with belly laughs and shared heartaches and lasting conversations. [00:01:01] 

We each take turns hosting the group and then we prioritize child care so that it's an evening full of adult conversation. The consistency of meeting regularly has produced much fruit and cherished relationships. 

So the weekend that I was processing these questions, a potluck friend brought up the conversation that she believes it's an error to say God cannot be in the presence of sin. We had a really good discussion of where that saying originated and how we all agreed it was inaccurate. Therein lies my big oops. 

This is exactly the phrase that I say when I present the gospel message at the end of every Savvy Sauce episode. I realized I was in error in the way that I communicated that message and I am so deeply sorry for my mistake.

One of my initial fears before starting The Savvy Sauce was that I would somehow accidentally teach something or say something in the wrong way that would be misleading or wrong. [00:02:05] And I especially didn't want to mess up on the most important part of each episode, which is when I shared how Jesus is the only one who can save us from our sins. 

My fears became my reality. But it's actually not as scary as I thought because of God's mercy and grace, because of His undeserved favor and forgiveness. So I have already apologized to my Father and now I ask your forgiveness as well. I hope you can forgive me.

So you may notice a change in the wording of the gospel message from this point forward. It took me months to re-record this because I didn't want to carelessly correct it without praying through these changes and then also seeking the godly counsel of others. 

Now what I would say I believe is that God can be in the presence of sin because Jesus walked among sinners. [00:03:05] He was in relationship with sinners, He dined with them, and He willingly gave His life for them. 

Naomi Vacaro said it really well in her Patreon episode where she expressed, "Sin only separates us from God if we let it." She goes on to explain that Jesus rushes to the side of any repentant sinner every time. That has definitely been my experience with Him too. 

We wrestled through so many options as a potluck group and with our team, but now we feel at peace with this version we've selected. I hope you get to listen to the updated gospel message next time you tune in to The Savvy Sauce podcast.

I am deeply grateful for this work I get to do and I pray God continues to lead and guide our team as we continue moving forward. So please don't hesitate to reach out if you believe that I've erred in any other area. Love you all. Grateful for you. [00:04:05] 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:05:06] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:06:06] 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. 

The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:07:11] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

221 Healthy Attachment in Marriage and Parenting with Jason VanRuler

221. Healthy Attachment in Marriage and Parenting with Jason VanRuler

 

Jonah 2:8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you teach us Attachment theory?

2. How can each of us work to move more towards secure attachment?

3. How can we best set our children up to be securely attached?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Jason VanRuler is the author of Get Past Your Past: How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. He began his career in 2011 and has worked with many populations over the years, ranging from persons who are incarcerated to top CEOs, performers and artists, and just about everyone in between. Jason has extensive experience as a clinician, coach, and speaker and operates a multistate private practice. In 2018, Jason joined Bethesda Workshops in Nashville, TN, where he serves as a group leader and facilitator. Jason is known for his ability to relate and connect with his clients and offer hope to those who have felt hopeless. He has an engaged and rapidly growing online audience for his insightful, short videos sharing practical tips for psychological care, self-help, and healthy relationships.

 

Jason enjoys spending time with his wife and three children playing games and traveling. In his spare time, Jason enjoys cycling, running, music, fly fishing, and all things personal development related.

 

https://www.jasonvr.com/

https://www.instagram.com/jason.vanruler/

https://www.youtube.com/c/Jasonvrcounselor

https://www.tiktok.com/@jason.vanruler

https://www.amazon.com/Get-Past-Your-Facing-Connection/dp/0310367417 

 

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

97 Guiding Our Children Through Their Emotions with Julie Roth

Patreon 18 Shame's Journey to Freedom with Julie Roth

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

Jason VanRuler is my guest today. He is a therapist, speaker, and author. His book is entitled, Get Past Your Past: How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. Jason's going to go first, and he's going to share his story now, as well as relationship advice and wisdom for parents and married couples. 

Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jason.

Jason VanRuler: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I've been looking forward to this.

Laura Dugger: Same here. Will you begin our time together by telling us about your personal journey, beginning with growing up in a challenging environment, and then how that led you to become a licensed therapist and now author? [00:01:27] 

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. Well, I think my story is unique to me, but in some ways, one that is increasingly common, probably shared by a lot. But I grew up in a home that was pretty idyllic. Just all the things were there that you would want to be there as a kid. 

Seemingly, it was just going to be the childhood that a kid would dream of. And then at age eight, my parents divorced. It was a very surprising divorce to me. I was eight, so I'm not sure how much clarity I really had about anything anyway. 

But they divorced, and I went from having this kind of idyllic childhood to a very volatile, chaotic one. When my parents divorced, what basically happened is it kind of thrust us into this place of struggling with some poverty, moving a lot. We lived in probably 20 houses throughout my childhood since age 8 to age 18. So we moved a ton. There was just a lot of addiction and trauma, abuse.

So it kind of went from having what you might suspect as being a really wonderful childhood to having this significant break and then shifting to something quite the opposite. [00:02:33] For me, obviously, that was really difficult, and I really struggled with that. 

I did the thing that people do when they exit a difficult childhood, and they just say, well, I'm never going to do that. Right. That'll never be me. I'm going to live so much differently.  And so I kind of declared that from the rooftops as I graduated and I'm going to move out and do all this stuff. 

Unfortunately, I just kind of recreated the same system. And I think the reason for that is I didn't know how to do it differently. I knew in my heart that I wanted things to change, but I wasn't sure how. I ended up just replicating the system. 

Within a couple of years, I'd gone to college, dropped out of college, was now struggling financially, really, because I was making a lot of poor decisions and drinking and using drugs and just doing all the things that I had said I would never do.

That's when I had the realization that I talk about in the book: Either your life is going to be pretty predictable if you keep doing this or it's going to change. [00:03:35] That kind of led me down the path of improvement in wanting to become a therapist. 

But I will tell you, Laura, I always wanted to be a therapist, actually, if you can believe that. It was probably obvious that I was going to be a therapist because at age eight, I was already journaling. So I don't know many 8-year-olds that are journaling. But I actually have the journal at home.

At age eight, I journaled that I wanted to be a therapist. I wanted to write a book. I wanted to kind of do all the things I was doing today. And I think some of that was because I have always dressed like a therapist. So I was wearing my corduroys and my sweater and I was dressed like a 60-year-old man. And I just had decided I'm going to be a therapist.

And so I think I had clarity, but life was complicated. It took me a long time to get to the place I wanted to go because some things got in the way.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is such a helpful recap. Along this journey, when was it that you met and surrendered your life to Jesus? [00:04:37] 

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, you know, really a couple of times. So when my parents were married, I grew up in the church and that was part of my life. Then after they split, that became something that was really hit or miss.

So occasionally we'd go to church and we might go to different churches. So there was not a lot of stability there. 

As I made my declaration about being different and changing everything, I really had this kind of fight with God. I had this wrestling match where I just couldn't quite fathom how I could have something so good that could switch to something so bad and God could still have some role in that. So for a long time, I really wrestled with that.

I would say that even though I had been baptized as a child, I was baptized in the Missouri River shortly after I got married. That, for me, is really when I look at my faith expanding and being the kind of faith that I would want as an adult.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. Now as an adult, if you fast forward and catch us up to just a snapshot of today? Can you update us on your family? [00:05:45] 

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I met my wife, we got married, and we both had talked about having kids and that was important to us. I talk more about this in the book, but we had a lot of problems having kids. In fact, we're told we couldn't and so had tried to adopt and that didn't work. Eventually, by God's grace, we had kids. We did the thing they said we couldn't do.

So now I've got three kiddos, a son who's 13 and a daughter that's 10, and another son who is 8. And so married now, this year will be 17 years with three kids.

Laura Dugger: I love it. I also just love how God surprised you with leading you into a career where you work so often with married couples. Attachment is a huge piece of any relationship. So will you teach us attachment theory?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, absolutely. Attachment theory is something that's really helpful for a lot of people because I think what we're looking to try to do is to better understand the patterns and themes in our relationship. [00:06:51] And so attachment theory is a great way to do that.

It is not a new theory. It's something a lot of people are talking about now, but it's actually been around for a long time. And it was really founded by this guy. His name was John Bowlby. Basically what he based attachment theory on is that we have these initial relationships with our parents and our caregivers. And so that relationship that we have really determines the relationship and attachment style that we have going forward.

If you can think about this, when we have a relationship with a parent, we're essentially dependent on them, right? If a parent refuses to care for a baby, they will die, right? They absolutely need that. And so that relationship is critical. 

And from that relationship, we learn ways to operate in the world. A lot of that initial relationship will determine our future relationship. So that's what they talked about with attachment theory. 

Bowlby did some experiments that were pretty famous, where he would have a child in a room and the mother would be in the room with the child. Then the mother would leave the room and they would look to see what the baby would do. [00:07:59] 

If the baby screamed and cried and was just inconsolable and very upset, they would often feel like that was an anxious attachment style. The anxious attachment style is the perception that relationships are insecure, meaning you're always at risk of losing them. And so they are deeply afraid of being abandoned. So that baby would respond as though mom has left and I'm abandoned and now I'm alone. That was one of the styles as they did this research.

Another style was the mother would leave and the baby would just be okay. The baby would actually, when the mom came back, not even try to connect. It just didn't have a great attachment to the mother. Period.

This would be called avoidant or dismissive. This attachment style is essentially someone who does not want to depend on others or to have others depend on them. And they don't seek all that support and approval that an anxiously attached person would seek.  [00:09:02] 

The third style is disorganized. Some people call this a fearful avoidant too. But this one is mixed results, right? This often comes from having a parent that's inconsistent or at times is hurtful. So it's a person who deeply wants to have connection, but is also deeply afraid of having that connection. At times they might be anxious, at times they might be avoidant, but it's kind of a mixed style.

Then the style that everybody wants, Laura, is secure attachment. That's what we're all really going for, right? Secure attachment was when the child was okay when mom was there and okay when mom wasn't there and could be in relationship when there was an opportunity and not when there wasn't. Basically, it's the ability to regulate ourselves well. 

Secure attachment is something that people want because it allows us to have some more objectivity in relationship, probably a healthier perspective about relationships than we do if we have the avoidant or the anxious or the fearful because those other ones are driven by a need that wasn't met. [00:10:06] 

Laura Dugger: Okay. That is such a good flyover. Now just a few follow-up questions. As we progress and even get married and have our own families, typically differing attachment styles are attracted to one another. Would you agree with that?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I mean, I think God's really funny that way. It's sort of this, this idea of we often end up with someone who is either opposite or operates in a place that is kind of challenging for us but is very intriguing initially.

Laura Dugger: Can you give some examples of how that plays out specifically in a married couple?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I think probably the most talked about pairing of attachment styles would be the anxious and the avoidance. And so what this is, is... sometimes called the pursuer and the distancer. 

So the anxiously attached person is always chasing and seeking that connection.[00:11:09] Because they're kind of fundamental question of the anxiously attached is, Am I okay? Are we okay? The question for an avoidance is, are we getting too close? So when they feel like we're getting too close, they put distance. 

So what we can end up having is a relationship style where one person is chasing the other for connection and the other is running away from it. That can be really stressful. It can be really challenging because we both need two very different things. Unless we're intentional about trying to meet in the middle, we can unfortunately have a cycle that just repeats itself.

Laura Dugger: Even as you say that, I think of friendships as well. Do you see this attachment style playing out really in all of our relationships as adults?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that I think if we understand we can work around, but if we don't, unfortunately, it can kind of run our life. I know, and I've talked about this, I'm anxiously attached. [00:12:11] Prior to doing a lot of personal work, I was just kind of always wondering if I was okay. I might've even said, "Hey Laura, how is this going? Am I doing all right in this interview? Do you think it's fine?" 

That just started to come out all over the place. And that's how that works if we don't know or we don't have intention about where we're at. It is something we see in friendships, we see in work relationships. We see it all over the place. 

Again, it's just a thing that if we understand, we can begin to work towards secure attachment or having that stability and ability to regulate our emotions and kind of show up knowing we're okay and being comfortable with connection. But that does take some work if we're not coming into our life with secure attachment.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. [00:13:14] 

Unlike other parts of the world, where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. 

And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. 

Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. 

To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. [00:14:27] I hope you check them out today. 

Laura Dugger: How can each of us specifically work to move more towards secure attachment?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, the easiest way that people would recommend is find someone who has a secure attachment style and just be their best friend or marry them. That's the short answer. Because what research has told us is that we change by being around that secure attachment style. 

And you might even notice this. If you're anxiously attached and you have a friend or your partner is securely attached, they will in a lot of ways help you to regulate what you're feeling because they don't experience that same feeling, right? And so they just bring that calming effect. 

The other part is just learning about it. There's a great book called Attached and it's by Amir Levine. It talks about ways that we can actually develop a more secure attachment style. So I think either being around securely attached people or learning about the hallmarks of those and trying to change your behavior are both ways we can get there. [00:15:27] 

Laura Dugger: Anybody who has a personal relationship with Jesus, obviously he is the most securely attached. And I think there is so much healing there when we are deepening and establishing our relationship with Him, because we can experience that unconditional positive regard and unconditional love.

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I think if you're a faith person like I am, like you are, I think that's our superpower actually is that we have that already. That's just something that is with us today. 

Even if we're in a place where we're like, yeah, very anxiously attached, we just know a very easy place to go where we're going to have that connection that we really desire. So, yes, absolutely. That's a great place to start for people is you don't even have to go outside of your home. Just going even to prayer and having that connection or relationship is a great model for the one we're trying to build.

Laura Dugger: There's a sense of urgency that I feel as a parent too, because attachment follows us throughout our lives. [00:16:31] You said it well. On page 85, you wrote, "I have a good friend who says we are all just reacting to or reflecting our childhoods." So, Jason, how can we best set up our children to be securely attached?

Jason VanRuler: That's a great question. I think it's knowing our own attachment and knowing what we bring in to that relationship with our children and being honest about that and working on it as needed. So I think where we get into a lot of trouble is just not having the awareness or insight about who we are and what we bring into that.

Because the truth is none of us are going to be perfect parents. I mean, I would like to, and certainly that would be a goal of mine if it were possible, but it's not. I think how we can best do that for our kids is just to be honest about how it is. Even just kind of saying like, yeah, this is a place I kind of struggle. What book could I read? Who can I talk to? How do I get better at this? [00:17:31] 

The other thing that I tell people is if you're coming into this as a parent and you say, you know, "I know I've got some woundedness in my past. I know I've got some struggles. I'm aware of that," and so it's not going to be natural or intuitive for me to know what to do as a parent, get some role models. 

I will say my parenting has completely changed the more I've allowed role models to be in my life. And what I mean by that is those are people who I literally go to and say like, "Hey, here's a thing that's going on with my kiddos and this is what I would do. What would you do?" And just learning from people who have a different attachment style, who are more securely attached, who have done it before have that perspective, that is a great teacher for how to do it in your own life.

Laura Dugger: I think it's always helpful to hear practical examples like that. That is something that seems doable. I'm just curious, with this attachment with our children, is that typically more on them or more on us as the parents to whether or not they form a secure attachment? [00:18:35] 

Jason VanRuler: That's a great question. What research tells us is it typically lands more on the parents, although we both have a role in that. The way as a parent that we really want to just reinforce that is being that parent that is available, being the parent that is consistent and stable. When we're able to do that, that lends itself to child having secure attachment. 

Now, certainly, perception can affect things, but if we are coming in as our stable self and consistent with our kiddos, they are far more likely to have a secure attachment style.

Laura Dugger: Okay. And then also, just thinking of when I was a brand new mom, sometimes I would take that to mean, Okay, I can never leave them if I want them to have a long-term secure attachment. But I don't think that's what you're saying. So will you elaborate more, even on the do's and don'ts that help with secure attachment?  [00:19:34] 

Jason VanRuler: That is what I mean, Laura. You can never leave no vacations ever. You have to stay put forever.  I know we feel that way because it is so important. I think so many of us now, we just want to do it better. And we want it to be healthy and we want to do all the right things. That's great. 

Something I say often is the opposite, though, of one extreme is another, right? We don't want to kind of fly from not having inside awareness and just operating out of reaction to then being completely rigid and doing nothing.

So really the thing is, is that, yeah, absolutely you can take vacation. You can do things like that. I think the piece that's actually vital is communication. Are we communicating what is happening to our kids and why? Obviously, that's going to be different, dependent on the age because some things are more age-appropriate than others. But are we really communicating what's happening?

And then when we are present, are we really present? I think sometimes people worry about leaving their kids and saying, "Well, I'm going to be gone from them. How does that impact them?" [00:20:40] But they're not even present when they're with them. 

So I think being present when you're with your kids is really, really important. I think if you take vacations and do things like that, it just matters that you communicate what's happening.

Laura Dugger: I feel like that's a message of grace. And we cannot, I know I cannot hear that enough. It makes me reflect back. One of my sweet friends is Julie Roth, and she's actually a counselor as well. She's been on The Savvy Sauce, so I can link some of her previous episodes. 

But she also talked about there are times, like you're saying, if we are communicating with our children, but if we take breaks or we go on date night or we go to work or different things, when we come back and re-enter and are present, like you said, that can even strengthen the attachment. They feel more secure knowing it's okay to be apart and then it's okay to come back together.

Jason VanRuler: Absolutely, yeah.

Laura Dugger: Would you elaborate on any thoughts on that? [00:21:42] 

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, exactly. You're just talking about how we model that attachment, right, is that you're okay when I'm here and you're okay when I'm not, and I'll return and you'll know what's going to happen. 

A lot of times where the biggest challenges are and where those attachments are really challenging, the things that lead us to places like being anxiously attached or avoidantly or things like that are when we don't know what's going to happen. And so we're left to fill in the blanks. 

The problem for kids is that kids have a really limited ability to fill in the blanks with different options. So most of their options are going to be revolving around something that they did or didn't do. That's why it's our job as parents to explain where we're coming from, why we're doing what we're doing, and make sure that they're understanding that we're not going on date night because we don't love you and we want to get away from you. We're going on date night to honor our marriage and we'll return. And so just kind of doing that communication with kids is the thing that really helps them to understand that. [00:22:44] 

Laura Dugger: One other piece to follow this further with the parent-child relationship. I think that repair is a huge part here as well. And so do you see secure attachment being also formed when we ask forgiveness from our children and train them how to say they are sorry and ask for forgiveness from us as well?

Jason VanRuler: Definitely. We are really role modeling for them the relationships that they will have for the rest of their life or have to fight against. And so it doesn't have to be perfect. In fact, it shouldn't be and it couldn't be because they are not going to find a perfect relationship in this world. 

The ability to really face a mistake or face a disconnect and repair is a skill not a lot of kids get. A lot of times they don't see that done. So having secure attachment is not about being perfect, but it's about knowing how to resolve it when it's not. [00:23:44] 

So the goal for us is just to say like, yep, that thing happened. I want to own it and I want to demonstrate what it looks like to actually repair from this because that is a vital skill not only for kids, but even adults. I mean, so often I work with clients who just say, I was never taught how to do this. And it's really, really important.

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?

Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

Well, you tell so many stories throughout your book. Would you share a couple of your favorites, including some of the lessons that they taught you? [00:24:45] 

Jason VanRuler: Absolutely. I think one of my favorite stories is probably when I'm talking about the experience with my dad where we're tubing. I think that was just a fun story for me.

He took us out and we skipped school, like very irresponsible kids, to go boating with my dad. And I didn't often get a lot of time with my dad, so it was just kind of inherently a big deal. And then I think we drank soda. We did all the things that you're not supposed to do that we did. 

And on that trip, he took us tubing behind a boat. As we were doing that, we each were thrown off. I've got a brother and he was thrown off pretty quickly and I wasn't long after, which thanks, Dad, I think that's why I still go to the chiropractor today. 

But he had this friend that he was on the tube and my dad pulled him with a boat and just increasingly tried to get the friend to fall off the tube, which is kind of what you do, kind of a fun thing. Everyone's laughing. And he just couldn't. [00:25:43] The friend would be kind of jostled around and thrown and would just keep hanging on and hanging on and hanging on.

Eventually what happened is that it kind of went from this joking thing to like, Hey, I wonder if I can really get him to fly off. And my dad did. It was quite the scene. I talk in the book about I think my Snickers bar was like flying out of the boat. It was just, you know, this madness. The friend flew off and went to get back in the boat and was actually missing a tooth.

You know, we were all kind of laughing about it, but then it took this kind of serious turn because, boy, that cost him something. And I was just really caught up in, "Why didn't you just let go? Why did I let go? My brother let go. You could have done that so much earlier." And he just had said, like, "It just seemed easier to hang on." 

I think for me that has stood out throughout my entire life is just this idea of like the open hand, closed hand. Like sometimes it does seem easier to hang on to things we shouldn't than to open our hand and let it go. [00:26:49] 

Laura Dugger: Also, will you unpack a lesson that you learned about a news story that popped up, I think it was maybe five or six years ago, but really stuck with you?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. There was this family and they went to a market and they were going to buy what they thought was a puppy. So they were in Asia. I've never bought a puppy from a market. I'm not sure that I'd recommend it, but they did.

They were just certain that they had bought this puppy and they went home and they began to feed it and do all the things that you do with a puppy. But it didn't take very long before the puppy started to actually consume quite a bit of food and got to be pretty big. And so they're like, "Well, this could just be like a really big version of this dog. We don't know a whole lot about it because we got it at a market. So let's just feed it more and feed it more."

And what happened over time is it started to just eat like this ridiculous amount of food. It was like, This puppy is like... you're not going to go to college because we have to feed the dog. And it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Until finally the family says, "Something is really wrong here. Either we've got the biggest dog in the world or it's not a dog.  I don't know." [00:27:58] 

So they took it to a vet and they just said, "Hey, here's the thing. We bought this puppy..." and they explained the whole story. And the vet says, "Yeah, well, this is actually an endangered Asiatic bear." So the family had thought they had a puppy, they'd been raising this puppy, and what they were really raising was a bear that was actually pretty dangerous to have at the house.

Laura Dugger: That story just floored me. I'd never heard it before reading your book. But I also loved your takeaways. Can you share the lesson learned for you?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. We have to be curious. We have to be curious. And not being curious can be really dangerous. Because just doing the thing to do the thing sometimes means that we're growing something that could hurt us. Along the way, we have to ask some questions. 

What was interesting to me about the news story was that it had talked about the family really wondering more than once before they ever said anything what was happening and just not doing anything about that. [00:29:08] I think if we're not careful, we do that in our own life, right? We do that thing where our gut is telling us or maybe we're in prayer and we're hearing God say to us, something is not right or something needs to be questioned. And for whatever reason, we just don't. We just don't. We just keep doing more of the same because it seems comfortable and it's what we know. 

But the challenge is sometimes it takes us a year or two before we realize we've raised the bear. And then when we raise the bear, we have a whole new set of problems that we never anticipated because it's not what we were trying to do.

Laura Dugger: That is so relatable. Thank you for sharing. We did talk about parenting, and you have so much background working with married couples and studying attachment theory. As we go back to thinking of the secure attachment within marriage, are there any practical tips you recommend for couples to start turning toward one another in a healthy, securely attached way? [00:30:09] 

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. We have to understand really what makes us tick as well as what makes our partner tick. What I mean by that is we all have different core needs. We have different attachment styles. We have different things that matter. We have our love languages as an example. We have our primal question. We have all these things that are specific to us. 

The best, healthiest couples know the other person. They know what they need, and they give that to them. And so what we really want to do to have a secure relationship is to understand well who our person is and what they need from us, and then do our best to meet them there. 

Where we get really off track is when we don't have insight or awareness about that, we're not curious, and we simply try to give them the things that are important to us.

So for me, it's really interesting being anxiously attached and working through that, I needed to know that I was okay. That was something I sought after quite a bit.

Early in our marriage, I would chase after my wife and tell her she was okay. [00:31:13] All the time. I would be like, "You're great." And I would tell her all the things I wished that I could hear. And it didn't work. And I was very frustrated because I'm like, I'm doing literally all the things. Why does this not work for you? 

The reason was is she was more on the secure attachment than I was. So she's like, "I actually don't need to hear that. That's not super important to me. That's nice, but it doesn't carry the weight for me that it does for you." 

So I think the best, healthiest relationships are not the ones where we're perfect, but the ones where we understand what matters to the other person and we try to meet them there, rather than simply trying to give them what's important to us.

Laura Dugger: Well, you have so much knowledge around psychology and relationships. For anyone who won't get to experience going to school for a counseling degree, will you just share a handful of other useful bits of wisdom you've gained? 

Jason VanRuler: Well, it's been a process. [00:32:13] One of the, I think to me, the greatest benefits of becoming a therapist or counselor is that I've gotten to do these things for myself. And I've gotten to learn along the way.

I think some things that I've learned is just that we are all still a work in progress, no matter what. No matter if you've been a therapist for 20 years, or... we're all still working on things. And actually, that's okay. That is totally okay to be doing that. 

I think I've also learned, too, that there's a lot of beauty in the difficult spaces. I think we run from the messiness a lot of times. But the truth is, at least in my experience, a lot of times the clients that I work with, God is so present in that space. That is just where God shows up in major ways is in that messy place where we think we're going to be all alone. And so getting to see that has just been such a wonderful thing.

I think also doing what I do has taught me that it's really okay to ask for help. [00:33:12] I'm a great Midwestern guy and so that's not how I was raised is to do that. But doing that is how we get through it, and seeking community who's willing to help, that we can also help in return. That is truly where growth and where health and connection come from.

Laura Dugger: Well, Jason, I know you have a lot more to share. So where can we go after this conversation to learn more from you?

Jason VanRuler: I've got a website. It's jasonvr.com. On that website, you'll find some free resources about relationships. There's actually a course about attachment and some other books that can be read, as well as access to my book. 

Then if you're looking for just day-to-day, brief relationship tips, you can go to Instagram. And it's jason.vanruler at Instagram, where I post daily, if not twice daily, about just quick relationship tips and tools, as well as sometimes parenting stuff and dating and all that good stuff. [00:34:14] Because my goal really is just to help people and to get the information in their hands. And so that would be another way that you could find me.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. You may already be aware, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Jason VanRuler: I think for me, you know, I get asked a lot, "How did you do these things? How did you get here?" And I think it really is very simple. In fact, a little too simple. But we ask somebody that knows, and then we do the next right thing. That's it. You just take that next step. 

I think for someone like me, who's been, you know, an overthinker my whole life, that sounds very complicated, right? It's like it has to be a trick there. But the truth of the matter is, it is pretty simple. You just take the next step. And when we do that it leads to wonderful places. [00:35:16] 

Laura Dugger: Jason, your field of work is not always an easy one to navigate, but it is meaningful and purposeful. So thank you for walking alongside so many people and sharing your insights with us, both through your book and now this conversation. I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

Jason VanRuler: Well, I appreciate it. I've loved our conversation today, and it is truly an honor and privilege to get to do the work I do.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.  [00:36:21] 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:37:21] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:38:23] 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.