The Savvy Sauce

231 Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore

231. Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Isaiah 55:12a NKJV "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace;"

‭‭

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. What was your upbringing like and how did you come to Christ at age 30?

2. What miracles happened along the way to launching Camp Grace?

3. How have you grown to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit vs your own voice or culture or the enemy, etc.?

 

Dave Pridemore is the founder and Executive Director at Camp Grace where their mission is to transform the lives of urban youth, with grace, through overnight camps. Learn more at the Camp Grace website or read God's miraculous story in Dave's book, Real Vision: Life is Too Short to Miss God's Best.

 

Dave received his undergraduate and master's degrees from The Ohio State University and then worked for the Bell Telephone system before attending Southwestern Theological Seminary and serving in churches. In 2005 Dave left the church to follow a calling God placed on his life to start an overnight camp for the under-served children of Georgia. To date Camp Grace resides on 300 acres and has a capacity to serve over 3,000 children per summer.

 

Dave and his wife, Susie live in Cumming Georgia and spend as much time as they can with their 12 beautiful grandchildren.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:59:16] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Today, we are launching a new and exciting Stories series. These will be faith-building true stories that are important to share, because the first part of Revelation 12:11 tells us how to conquer our enemy, Satan. And it says, "And they overcame and conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony." [00:01:16] 

 

So to kick off our Stories series, my guest is Dave Pridemore. He is the founder and executive director at Camp Grace, and he's going to share God's miracle after miracle, from first delivering a vision to Dave in 2002, all the way up to present day.

 

This chat will encourage you in your own walk with Christ, and Dave's going to inspire you to take your next step forward in whatever dream God has laid on your heart. 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dave.

 

Dave Pridemore: It's good to be with you, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: Can you just begin by sharing what your upbringing was like and how you came to know Christ at age 30?

 

Dave Pridemore: Oh, sure. I grew up in a small town in Ohio.  Was not a Christian. Parents really didn't go to church. And so just had a great time growing up. Never went on a vacation. Parents didn't have much. Never went to camp myself. [00:02:18] But I just enjoyed growing up in that small town, playing sports. And that's pretty much what I did.

 

So I qualified in high school for the state gymnastic meet and went to the Ohio State University. And I had never been out of my hometown, and I was about 15. So I got on campus and I thought it was phenomenal. And so I stayed in the dorm. I had a college kid that hosted us, went to the auditorium, was able to go off the diving boards, the gym, the football field. It was amazing. 

 

But the only reason I say that is that one week, the day before I came back to my hometown, I decided, "I want to go here. This place is phenomenal." My parents were steel mill and pottery workers, and I was kind of going to follow the same line. But when I came back, I talked to my high school counselor, she said, "Well, you'll have to change to college prep." [00:03:20] And so I did. 

 

I ended up getting my undergraduate and master's degree from Ohio State. I made the cheerleading squad and was able to travel the United States with the football team. But that one week was a defining week in my entire life. So I can see even now if you can get kids in the right environment, it can do the same thing for them. 

 

So while at Ohio State, I worked for Ohio Bell. After graduation, I stayed with Ohio Bell. It was really a non-growth company. I was in personnel and I placed myself in Atlanta. In 1978, I moved my family to Atlanta.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. And at this point still, having a family, being married, traveling the country now, was faith ever mentioned or how did you even come to meet and then follow Jesus?

 

Dave Pridemore: So God has a sense of humor. [00:04:21] I didn't see much use for church or faith. When I moved to Atlanta, he gave me two neighbors. On my right-hand side was a guy by the name of Dr. Larry Parker, who was the chairman and president of an organization called CBMC, Christian Businessmen's Committee of USA. On the other side was a guy by the name of Bruce Wilkinson. He started Walk Through the Bible Ministries. He wrote many books, Prayer of Jabez, you might be familiar with it. 

 

But these two guys just started loving on me, playing tennis, taking me to Braves games. And then I went to a CBMC luncheon where a tennis pro was speaking. And that's the first time I really heard the gospel where it affected me. 

 

After that, my friend asked me if I would like to know more about what the speaker said he could meet with me one morning a week before we went to work. [00:05:20] So I was really inquisitive about all of this. 

 

But I really liked my neighbor, Dr. Larry Parker, played a lot of tennis. And so because... and I say today, when you come to trust the messenger, you'll trust the message. So I loved Larry Parker and I trusted him. And so I started meeting with him once a week in Operation Timothy. 

 

So then I started understanding my problem wasn't everybody else. My problem was a sin problem. I remember coming back from a business trip in January 1980, and I knew what I needed to do. I needed to make a commitment to Christ and receive Him. And as I was driving through Atlanta, I thought, You know, what if I were to reckon this downtown connector and I were to pass away tonight? It hit me that night that I knew I would not be with God in heaven because I had never really done business with Him.

 

So that night in tears, driving through Atlanta, I was confessing my sin. And I said, Lord, I don't understand it all. But it was that night that I received Christ. [00:06:29] 

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible to hear. There was someone else on The Savvy Sauce. She's actually believe lives in Atlanta now. But Rachel Faulkner Brown said, "We continue to share our stories and our testimonies of what God did so that he can do it again, anew and afresh in someone else's life." So you have seen the fruit of that. 

 

You eventually became the evangelism pastor at a mega church in Atlanta and I believe it was at that time that you had a start of your fresh vision. So will you take us back to that time and share how God spoke to you and what was the result?

 

Dave Pridemore: Yeah. So I was evangelism and missions pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell. When the towers came down, a friend of mine asked me to come to New York and do chaplaincy work.

 

This guy was kind of like me, poor, grown up in New York, and had never been out of the city. [00:07:29] And when he was 16, he was invited to go to an overnight camp and he became a Christian and came back, ended up going to Bible College, started Manhattan Bible Church, Manhattan Christian Academy. But he also was a chaplain for the Knicks and always wanted to camp because he knew what it did for him. And if he could get other inner-city kids outside the city, he can really speak to their hearts. 

 

Charlie Warden Allen Houston, a couple pro players helped him build Hoop Heaven. And I went up the next year and saw it in action, and I had never seen such transformation in kids in one week in my life. 

 

So I came back to my church and came back to Atlanta and I researched and said, how many camps do we have in Georgia that are exclusively for underserved kids? And I could not find one.

 

And when I say I'm talking, taking hundreds and maybe thousands of kids. And so I was at the beach with my wife and I took some yellow tablets because I wanted to write out what it would look like. [00:08:35] And I came up with three camps on 300 acres and serve at least 3,000 kids a summer. I ended up typing that out. And God really one day was convicting me. He was calling me to do it, although I'd never raised money. I'd never run a camp. I'd never been to camp. Didn't know anything. If you're going to find somebody to hire to do what I was called to do, you would never hire me. 

 

I remember one day I was so... I call it in my book that I wrote, a holy miserable, because I knew He was calling me, but I did not want to do this. So I got in my car, I went down actually and went behind a Chick-fil-A in Roswell, shut off my car, was crying in my car, was going to do business with God and say, "Listen, I'm not doing this. So I'm settling this once and for all."

 

So I started my car back up that day, went back to my church, walked past my office to my pastor's office, and I quit my job that day because I knew God was calling me to do it. [00:09:42] You either have to say yes or no to God. And like I tell people, "If I'd never had a camp, if I never had land, if I never had any kids to camp, the most successful I've ever been in this ministry in the last 19 years was the day I went back and said yes to God." 

 

I think that's what a lot of folks need to know. Our identity is not tied up in a ministry we have. It's tied up in being a child of God.

 

Laura Dugger: That's always a helpful reminder and so neat to hear how it played out for you. So he's dropping this little idea, this seed at this point, and in obedience, you said yes to him. So your vision was for a camp to serve underprivileged children in Atlanta. What miracles happened along the way as you pursued putting this vision into action?

 

Dave Pridemore: Well, there's so many. One of the things I think helps a person to go forward with a calling that God's given them is what they believe about themselves and their relationship to God. [00:10:50] I teach a lot of folks the grace of God, which comes out of 2 Corinthians 5:21. "He gave him who knew no sin to be sin on my behalf that I might become the righteousness of God in Christ."

 

So a great exchange happened in that verse. He took all my sin and put Himself in me, gave me His righteousness. So I just believe with Christ in me, what He does is He honors faith more than anything. Without faith, it's impossible to please Him. 

 

And so I believe that once you get an idea and it's constant, kind of like the calling, that you just step out and God will do it, right? I remember I was needing some land and I had some people that wanted to give me land, but then they wanted to control everything.

 

So I told my wife, I said, "I do everything by faith, and the folks who want to give me land they want me to have so much money in the bank. They want me to build a certain kind of building." [00:11:50] And so I said no to two people.

 

Then there was a guy in my church that he knew I left and he had a big company and he takes all 500 of his employees to the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Amelia Island. So he asked my wife and I if we'd come down and be the chaplains or the minister for his company for that week. This was in December. Who wouldn't want to go to the Ritz Carlton in December? And so I went down. 

 

What I didn't know was he had a polar bear run that he announced for Friday morning. And he said, "You know, Dave used to be my pastor and he's a chaplain this week and he's starting a new camp for kids who live in poverty. We're going to do a polar bear run tomorrow, and if anybody comes and jumps in the pool with their clothes on, I'm going to give Dave $15 dollars per person."

 

Well, I walked away with over a half a million dollars that morning. So God provided the money for me to buy just a beautiful, beautiful piece of land. [00:12:52] So I got on the land and I decided, you know, I need to go ahead and build right now, although I didn't have the money. 

 

And I think that's another thing. When God speaks to me about doing something, I never have any money. But it's when it's so clear, I say, thank you, Lord.

 

So I said, I didn't give the money to the camp that I was renting. Another reason is they only had me down to two weeks that they would give me. And so I said, Okay, Lord, I will build eight of the 30 cabins of the Wild West Fort. But I had no money. 

 

I went to speak at a place in Macon and a guy came up to me after I spoke and said, "I'm with Builders for Christ. And you're talking about building a fort. We can build that for you." I said, "What do you mean you can build it for us?" He said, "We can actually bring a couple hundred people out there. We can build the fort for you." [00:13:54] I said, no way. 

 

And so he came out. And sure enough, and another guy provided all the concrete. Another guy provided all the electrical. What's so amazing is the day that the kids showed up for the camp is the same day the city official came out to inspect the camp to give us our certificate of occupancy. So we were cutting it kind of close. I said, Boy, this is a little close, right? But he gave us our certificate of occupancy and we went in there.

 

So we didn't quite finish the whole fort, but we had enough cabins done to go ahead and do that summer. Let me just tell you one other quick miracle. So I'm standing out in a field and they're playing, the kids are playing, and all we have are about 10 cabins and we needed 30. We didn't have it quite all finished. And so in my mind, "I'm thinking we're going to go ahead and finish the fort." [00:14:55] 

 

But in that field, God impressed upon me. He said, "Right now the kids have to go back to the cabin if it rains. They can't go under a roof to play. And if it's too hot outside, you don't have any shade for them to do programming." He said, "I want you to build the gym."

 

Now I had the gym, of course, on the master plan, but that was years down the road. I said, Lord, I don't have the fort finished. It was so clear to me to do the gym. So I said, "Okay, Lord, I'm doing the gym." And I just remembered that there was a guy and his wife that came to the camp and they walked around, they loved what we did. And I remember he said, "I'm a structural engineer." I said, "Oh, I'm going to call him." So I called him to ask him if he would help me manage and build a gym. And he said yes. 

 

I remember the day that the guy that I bought the steel from was a guy that I discipled in my other church. And then this other guy that was going to help me build it, they were looking at the steel plan and they finished talking and he said, "Dave, I need to order the steel today or tomorrow," this was on a Thursday, "in order for us to get the gym up by June." [00:16:06] He says, "$135,000." And he looked at me and I said, "I don't have any money."

 

He kind of looked at me like, "I can't believe I'm helping you and you don't have the money." And I said, "Well, you said today or tomorrow, let's pray and ask Him to bring it tomorrow." And he thought I was kidding, but I wasn't.

 

And so he said, "If I write this check, will you pay me back?" Of course, I'm thinking, "If you write the check, that's between you and God, not me and you because I do everything by faith." But he wrote the check. And we ordered the steel and the steel came.

 

I remember the Friday that he came out and he said, "Dave, I have three bids to erect the steel to get this up before June. One was 24000, one was 60,000 and one was 80,000." He said, Dave, I've selected the guy that's 60,000 because I know him. He will do a good job. 

 

As soon as he said that, my phone rang and the guy on the other end of the phone said, "Hey, you don't know me, but I just met with my financial advisor and you're building a gym." [00:17:12] I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "My wife and I were talking about it on the way home and we have some money to give. We just pulled over because we felt the Lord telling us to go ahead and send you 60000." I said, "You've got to be kidding me. Talk to my friend." 

 

So I handed the phone to my friend and sure enough, the guy said 60,000. We got the gym up in time for the summer. And then at that time in my ministry, I would write some grants, but grants you only receive when you're successful. And I got good at reading the rejection letter.

 

So I went to the P.O. box and I had this grant that I remembered. I had actually forgotten about it. I went to open it to read the rejection letter and there was $177,000 check in there. And so I called my friend and I said, "Hey, God gave you money back today." He said, "What do you mean?" And I told him, he said, "Dave, the difference to the penny will actually put lights in the gym." Can I put lights in the gym?" I said, "Yeah, I'm too crazy to think about putting lights. So, yes, go ahead and do that." [00:18:15] 

 

And I know your husband works for Chick-fil-A. And the guy that sent the 60,000, he and I have become really good friends now. But he was a Chick-fil-A executive. I thought I'd throw that in. That's just one of so many, so many other miracles.

 

Laura Dugger: Goodness, they just bring tears to my eyes. I've read so many of these in your fantastic book, but it just leaves me in awe of our Lord. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. 

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. [00:19:16] These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.

 

While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. 

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: One other thing God was calling you to do was to also practically raise your own salary. You write in your book that God gave you this idea to ask 10 people for $10,000 for your salary.

 

Dave Pridemore: Yes. [00:20:17] 

 

Laura Dugger: Can you share about Frank?

 

Dave Pridemore: Oh, Frank, yeah. Well, Frank was one of the 10 couples. These are couples I ministered with at my church for 10 years. Frank and I... I could call him and get coffee in the morning, but all of a sudden, it was like two months before we could get together. We finally got together at Einstein Bagel in Roswell. 

 

I had my book, and I had my little spiel that I was going to tell him. Because these guys know that I already left the church. I said, "Frank, this is what I'm doing, and I'm asking 10 families if they would support Suzy and I with $10,000 so we could put it in the bank and we can get started with this ministry." 

 

He kind of looked at me and then kind of bowed his head and shook his head like, No. I thought, "Oh, no, I have offended Frank." Then he raised his head and he said, "Dave, you know, my wife Jan is selling her Fazoli fast food restaurants." [00:21:17] He looked at me and said, "Isn't God's timing perfect?" And I thought, "No, I don't think it's perfect because I wanted to meet with you two months ago. He said, "No, Dave, she just sold a restaurant in South Carolina. Last night, Dave, we were talking about where do we tithe this $10,000?"

 

I put that in my book because God wanted to teach me real early on, Dave, never, ever worry about timing. The timing is not yours. You can plan, but I will make it happen in my time. That frees me up just to enjoy Him. Laura, I'm serious. I don't really care when anything happens. He taught me that early on because He doesn't want me to have any anxiety about when things are built. I love that story because it was a real teaching moment in my life. [00:22:19] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. There is just a presence about you, just a patience. Mark has said this before, too, how he's so drawn to that, to mentors who are not hurried. I wonder if that's in part what God's teaching you about his timing.

 

Dave Pridemore: He really is. I remember having this land and it was in '08 and '09. That's when everything was terrible. Real estate, terrible, no people building. I remember going to a church that I came to Christ in, Dunwoody Baptist. The pastor was a friend of mine. I said, "Do you know anybody that does site work?" I had a lot of site work to get done. He told me about a guy. This guy's name is Barry. 

 

I had lunch with Barry. My first mission trip was in Granada, Venezuela. Believe it or not, Barry's number one foreign mission trips were always to Granada, Venezuela. [00:23:20] So we became buddies at that lunch. Do you know he had no work to do? He came out with all of his equipment. He spent two months. He did all of the site work, water lines, sewer lines, everything for my entire frontier town. That's my first camp. He did everything as a gift. 

 

You never know how God is going to do it or when he's going to do it. All I do is... I operate out of a principle of Romans 1:16. It says, I'm not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God into salvation. In that verse, it says the power of God is in the story. I'm not ashamed of the gospel because the gospel says it is the power. The power is in the story. 

 

I didn't ask to do this ministry. God called me to do it. It is not my story. It is His story. I just believe the power is in his story. So I don't raise money. I just tell his story, say, "Here's what we need," and I leave. That's what I did that day. [00:24:33] 

 

God worked on this Barry's heart. He decided, I don't have any work. I'm sending all my men, all my equipment, and we're going to get this done for Camp Grace. The power is not in me. The power is in him, in his story.

 

Laura Dugger: That reminds me of something that you write about on page 85. You emphasize that it's ministry first. Money follows ministry. Ministry first, money second.

 

Dave Pridemore: Yeah. I remember meeting with this one lady, and she was going to be a donor. And as we were talking, I remember her starting to tell me about years ago, her son was in a car accident and died. Then we spent an hour just talking. And then all of a sudden she said, "Oh, I'm sorry, Dave. Now you came to see me. What would you like? What do you need?" I said, "I don't need anything. Maybe we can meet again later."

 

Right. And that's principle is she needed me at that time. [00:25:31] Then also, everything I tried to do is operate out of the principle was in the word of God. You know the story of the centurion, right? The centurion came to Christ and said, My servant is dying. And up until that time, if you read, Christ had never healed anyone without touching them first. 

 

Then Christ even said to the centurion, I will go to your house with you. Now, I know I would have said, Please come. But the centurion said, "No, no, no, you don't need to come. I know who you are. You just say the word and he will be healed." And he is only one of two people in the New Testament that Jesus said, "I have never seen such great faith in anyone in all of Israel." 

 

In verse 13 is the verse I so like. He says, "Let it be done to you as you have believed." You see, I believe blessings will always follow belief. [00:26:30] If I believe God is going to build a fort, then I go forward as if it's done. If I believe God is going to give me a swimming pool, then I go forward as if it's done.

 

But once He calls you to do it, thank Him and do it. Without believing that He's going to do it, I don't think you're going to get the blessing. I think there's so many Christians that want blessed. But what if they really stepped out in faith to do? I would encourage people, man, if you want to be blessed, then identify something that is so big that if God does not show up, you will surely fail. And you will find blessings upon blessings. I think I've experienced it.

 

Laura Dugger: And is there any other specific scripture that has sustained you throughout this process?

 

Dave Pridemore: Well, when I was behind the Chick-fil-A crying. 1 Thessalonians 5:24 says, "Faithful is he who has called you." We'll do it, Dave. For some reason that came to mind. [00:27:39] And I thought about that. Okay, it's not my job to do. I believe He is faithful. If he calls you, I just believe that He will do it. I don't know how it's going to come about, but that's not my job to worry about. My job is just to walk in Him. So I probably say that verse every day for the last 20 years. Every day. 

 

At the end of my book, I say, hey, listen, we need to have the faith about the size of a mustard seed. So you can see as He calls you into ministry and to do what He wants you to do. It's not the size of your faith. It's his faithfulness. It's always Him. You always go back to Him because without Him, Camp Grace wouldn't exist today.

 

Laura Dugger: Faithful is He who calls you and He will do it. That's so encouraging for each of us, regardless of what He's called us into right now. [00:28:39] Recently, there have just been these themes about discipleship defined. I've heard it described simply as sharing with another what Jesus has revealed or taught to us. 

 

So with that in mind, Dave, as you continue to disciple us through this conversation, do you have any favorite takeaways from your experience that you want to make sure none of us miss out on?

 

Dave Pridemore: I think maybe Colossians 2:6 is a big verse. It says, "In the same way that you have come to know Christ Jesus as Lord..." And how did we come to know him? Through faith. It has to be by faith. Right? So it says, "In the same way that you've come to know Him, so walk in Him." 

 

It seems like we come to know Him by faith, and then as we walk in our Christian walk, we get farther and farther from that faith and we get farther and farther from trusting Him in everyday life. [00:29:44] That's the exciting part about being a Christian. Because then by faith, we give him an opportunity to show up and do things that we can't even explain. 

 

I think it's important to me that we get back to trusting Him in small things, big things, all things. And that's why I say I encourage people. 

 

I was doing a devotion at the National Christian Foundation. This just came to mind. I don't know why. So after I gave my talk, this lady comes up to me. She says, "Can we go to lunch?" I didn't have any lunch plans. I said, "Sure." We go to lunch and she's telling me about this vision that God has given her out of what she's doing and mentor for entrepreneurship, young African-American inner-city poor kids. [00:30:41] 

 

And then the more we're talking... I mean, the passion was just oozing out of her. So I looked at her and I said, "Hey, guess what?" She said, "What?" I said, "You got to do this." You've got to say yes to God. And that scared her to death. Well, then I go back months later to do another devotion at NCF. So I asked, "Where's this girl?" And they said, "Oh, she left months ago to go do a ministry with underserved girls." 

 

So the reason she was so scared, she had never done it. It was so big she didn't know how to start. I said, "It doesn't matter. It's so big that that's why you should start." Because if He does not show up, you're going to fail. 

 

I tell people if I've never had a camp, if no kids had ever come to camp, if none of this would have ever happened, I'm still successful because I quit my job. [00:31:42] I'm not telling everybody to quit the job. Don't get me wrong. But I did say yes to Him. And that involved me quitting my job because this was so big. But the day I quit my job and said yes, that's the day I've been most successful.

 

Abraham and Isaac. Abraham was so successful because he went to do something I don't think any of us could ever do. But he was right there ready to finish it. And God said, "Okay. Go to the thicket. I provided. Don't take your son's life." 

 

So that's how serious God is about us trusting Him. If we say yes, man, Katie bar the door because He is... I'm doing some things right now that are so big that scares me. But I'm excited because of what God can do.

 

Our next camp is going to be called Hooptown. Like this summer, we had 480 first-time decisions, which takes us to 5,662 decisions since we started this camp out of the 15,000 kids that have come. [00:32:48] 

 

In Hooptown, I know that God is going to have more kids come to Christ than in Frontier Town. So Frontier Town is finished. So now we're getting ready to do our next camp. And it's going to be exciting to see how God does it, because I don't have a clue how it's going to get done.

 

Laura Dugger: That is incredible to hear the next vision of what's coming. But can you catch us up to speed a little bit more about the current camp and a little bit clearer picture of your vision for the future?

 

Dave Pridemore: Oh, yeah. So the first camp was Frontier Town. We set off 455 acres. We have 500 beds and we can host right around 28,000 kids a summer. The real challenge for us, most of our kids come to camp through corporate sponsors like Chick-fil-A, you know, like your family sponsors kids. And I have 149 corporate sponsors. [00:33:52] So to get to where I want to be in 2025, I'm making an all-out push to try to get 300 corporate sponsors, because that will allow me to send 3,000 kids to camp. 

 

When you think about what I'm doing, it's kind of crazy, but God's called it. That's why we've never finished a year in the red. We not only build a $26,000,000 complex right now, but all of our customers can't afford to come. So now we've got to go out and we've got to raise all the money to get them there. But these kids thrive at Camp Grace.

 

So now we have finished Frontier Town and our next camp is called Hooptown and it's 14 courts and six of the courts are on the inside air conditioning and the other courts are under pavilions on the outside. And it'll be 24 cabins and we can host 338 people at one time on that facility. We're in the process now of putting together a strategy to try to raise capital dollars to get that built. [00:34:58] What's so nice is God's already provided all the land we need for all we ever want to build. 

 

Again, I share the story. I have a great architectural company that does renderings for me because, you know, a picture is worth a thousand words. And so these renderings are beautiful. But my biggest challenge, really, for some reason, we can get buildings up, but it's harder to get all the kids sponsored to camp. 

 

And that's the main goal is I have a little thing going. Each one, reach one. I'm asking each one of my corporate sponsors to see if they could find one other company. And they sponsored 10 kids, which is 36,000 a year. So I believe in the next 18 months, God's going to give us 3,000 sponsors.

 

Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:36:08] If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox. 

 

Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect to the more relational level. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the articles tab. 

 

Who qualifies to come to camp and how are you connecting with these kids?

 

Dave Pridemore: Well, when I was sitting on the beach putting together the camp, I have to have follow-up because, you know, I've been in the church for 15 years and I was always the outreach and evangelism pastor and follow-up is really important. So I don't take any kids off the street. I only go into inner cities and find people who are working with these kids on a weekly basis. [00:37:12] And then I talk to them about becoming a long-term partner. 

 

I have 59 partners in 27 cities and in four states. My original 501c was called Vision Atlanta, but now I have a DBA called Camp Grace. 

 

So what happens is people are hearing about us through word of mouth and kids from Alabama, from Florida, from South Carolina, and Georgia. South Carolina, especially, we took over, I think it was 270 kids this summer and they want to bring like so many more. But that's why we have to keep growing.

 

I tell people, if you have a church that's baptizing 400 to 500 a summer, wouldn't you want to double that? Rick Warren, he's a pastor in Southern California. I used to go to all his conferences and actually I interviewed for a job out there years ago. [00:38:12] He says, if you're not growing, you're dying. And he has the six D's. He calls the six D's of God grows you as He grows your ministry. 

 

And those six D's are something that really come out of what I do. And they are, God will give you a dream, and from that dream, you have to make a decision. And from that decision, once you say yes, you can always count on delay. And after delay, you're going to have difficulty. That difficulty will lead you to dead end. You'll get to a point you want to throw in the towel. But after the dead end will come deliverance. So what I tell people is never give up and never stop. Because deliverance with God always comes.

 

Laura Dugger: That is so encouraging and sounds so accurate. Practically speaking, I would love to add some links in our show notes for today's episode. If someone's hearing this and they're feeling nudged to contribute in some way, where would you want to direct them to support all of this work and vision? [00:39:16] 

 

Dave Pridemore: You can go to thecampgrace.com and there's ways to sponsor children there. We actually are working with two people right now. One's in Canada and one's in Houston. And they want to do a Camp Grace Canada and a Camp Grace Texas.

 

So we're lending our expertise on inner city camps to other people. There may be some people listening to this that says, you know, we don't have a camp for kids that live in poverty anywhere in my area. If they want to call us, call me on (404) 493-4075. I would love to speak to them because we really have a turnkey manual that I could go to Chicago. If I had land and a person who had passion, we could do a Camp Grace Chicago tomorrow.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, thank you for sharing that. We will certainly add that to the show notes for today's episode. [00:40:19] Dave, you just have an inspiring spiritual gift of faith and you have clearly exercised it well. There's so much that we could learn from you but now I want to zero in on discernment. So how have you grown to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit against your own voice or culture or the enemy?

 

Dave Pridemore: Well, we're made in three parts. We have a body, we have a soul and we have a spirit. Before we were Christians, we didn't have the Holy Spirit in us, so we were dead in our trespasses and sin. 

 

Now, you know, what's called the flesh or the soul is our intellect and our emotion, and our will. Now that we're Christians, the spirit of God will test and give answers to our intellect, our emotion, our will. I call it our thinker, our feeler, and our chooser. And I call it a check in my spirit. [00:41:18] 

 

Let me give you an example. I was going to get zoning for the second time I tried to get zoning, but everybody was so ugly and they didn't want us to bring our camp to their area because of all the kind of kids we were bringing. 

 

So I was driving home and I was talking to God and I said, God, everywhere I go to get zoning, everybody's the same. They don't want us to come so I might as well go ahead and buy this camp. So the next morning, my real estate agent called me and she said, "Dave, I've got the contract. Let's go ahead and buy this land. I can't believe how ugly all those people were." 

 

Her name was Shelly. I said, "Shelly, I can't." And she said, "Why, Dave?" I said, "I don't know. I just know that it doesn't feel right right now. I have to wait." And I call that a check in my spirit. You see, the spirit of God will lead you into all righteousness. All right. And when you have a hesitation in you, then you just wait. [00:42:17] 

 

That's how I personally discern what God's telling me to do. And like this next thing I'm getting ready to build. He gives you not only a go-ahead. You have an enthusiasm inside of you that can't wait. You're like a racehorse at the gate. And when I'm not like a racehorse at the gate, I don't do it. I just don't do it.

 

I can say no to so many things because I know when it's of Him, because His spirit gives my mind the go and the emotion and the will to go. Right? So that's the exciting thing about being a believer, because now you have the Holy Spirit guiding and directing you.

 

Now, I could have still bought that land. Right. I could have. But I think I would have been miserable. And then two weeks later, a guy called me about the land I have now. I walked in the zoning, it was packed. I thought it was about me again. But it wasn't about me. 

 

I gave my testimony, the guy said, in the opposition, "No opposition." They said "settle." [00:43:17] I didn't realize it was right in the center of the state. It was the only camp I looked at that had county water on it. And that's a big deal if you're doing a camp. 

 

So if I would have said no to God and gotten the flesh. John 6:63 says the spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. There's nothing good in the flesh. So if I make decisions without the spirit telling me that I'm going to be in some deep doo doo. But I don't know how other people do it. But I think you got you kind of know. When you're talking to God you kind of know when He says go or when He says wait.

 

A lot of my stuff is wait, believe it or not. Because He will not only say go, He will give you an enthusiastic excitement about the next step, about what to do. And if I'm not excited and enthusiastic about it, I just wait.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's so good. It just makes me think of the first part of Isaiah 55:12 that says, "For you shall go out with joy and be led out with peace." [00:44:22] 

 

Dave Pridemore: Man, that is it. Because we want God's best. I have a saying at camp that God gave His best. So we're going to build the best. I had a little African-American foster girl come and she was put in a cabin with a gal that the stories were the same. This girl was, of course, a college kid and her mom was in jail and didn't know her dad. The same as little Elijah. 

 

And Elijah comes and she falls in love with her counselor. She comes to Christ that week, she goes home. And two months later, her foster dad calls me and says, "What did you do to her?" I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "She's praying, she's reading the Bible, she's wanting to go to college now, she's telling me." And so I told him and he said, "I can't believe what you've done. If I could ever help you, let me know."

 

And so I said, "What do you do since you said you want to help me?" He said, "I built the Olympic pool in Atlanta. I built pools for 20-plus years. I said, "Man, I need a pool." [00:45:25] I don't know what he was thinking, but I lived in a big subdivision. I want the best for our kids. 

 

This subdivision was a zero-entry mushroom Junior Olympic. It was like a resort pool. And so I gave him a picture of it. He said, "Dave, I have built that for 500, 600 in subdivisions." I said, "I know that's what we want." And he sent 40 guys and he built a 600,000, 130,000-gallon pool, which is the best. Most of our kids learn to swim at camp in that pool. So why settle for second best when you're working for God?

 

Laura Dugger: Well, as you're walking us through this story, it just takes me back because when this was becoming more of a reality around 2008, that's when our paths crossed during that time. You were my husband, Mark's mentor. Mark and I were not married yet. But you would meet together with Mark and Chris Allen and just encourage them. Eventually you ended up officiating our wedding. [00:46:34] 

 

When I'm going back to that time, I just remember we had invited a lot of our unbelieving friends to the wedding and we had a captive audience. So we didn't want to miss out on an opportunity to share the good news. So do you remember the story of grace you shared as Mark and I left the sanctuary as a newly married couple?

 

Dave Pridemore: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's the difference between justice, mercy, and grace. Of course, my camp is called Camp Grace. And I just believe people need to understand grace to be effective in everything that they do. I liken it to if you're speeding in your car, right, and you're going 30 miles over the speed limit and the officer pulls you over, well, you deserve justice and justice is he's going to write you a ticket. 

 

In the spiritual realm, we deserve justice, and that justice is getting what you deserve. So we deserve death and separation from God for all eternity because of sin in our life.

 

So the officer is writing out what I jokingly call the sin ticket, right? And so because you or I have had... let's say we've had four other tickets and we, you know, this is a super speeder ticket, man, he's going to throw the book at us and so we look at the officer and say, officer, will you give me mercy? [00:48:01] 

 

And to our surprise, the officer says yes. And he takes the sin ticket and he tears it into a bunch of pieces and he throws it in the air and it goes as far as the wind blows it as far as east is from west. So the mercy that God gave us is the blood of Christ takes away the sin of the world. 

 

So mercy is not getting what you deserve. We deserve that ticket. We deserve separation from God for all eternity. But God so loved us that He sent Jesus so that he could tear up the sin ticket, so that He could get rid of sin once and for all. 

 

Once we just think about if an officer tore that sin ticket up, how would you feel sitting in the car? And it's the same thing the night I came to Christ. I felt so good about my decision because I knew I had entrance into the kingdom of heaven. [00:49:01] I was a child of God. I had no sin at that moment.

 

And then I try to explain grace by all of a sudden the officers walk into his car, then he stops and he starts walking back toward your car. And you say, "Oh, I knew this was too good to be true." I knew that that ticket would have cost you $300. So he takes three new $100 bills and he hands it to you. He hands it to me. And he says, have a good day. Well, I would take that $300 and I would put it in my pocket. 

 

I've been crucified with Christ. It's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. So He has put his life in us. So if justice is getting what you deserve and mercy is not getting what you deserve, then grace is getting what you don't deserve. 

 

That's why I can discern the best of my ability what God is telling me to do, because He is in me. I tell people, quit trying so hard to do the Christian life. You can't do it. [00:50:05] But there's somebody in you that can do it through you. We don't have to do anything for God. It's what he does from us that really matters. So grace is a big deal to me.

 

Laura Dugger: It is a big deal to you. You've shared that so much throughout your life and this conversation today and even tying up that story of our wedding, we wanted people to experience grace in a really tangible way.

 

So after we had exited, you shared this story of the good news, and we had hidden a lump of money under someone's seat in the sanctuary. And it was actually Chris Allen's parents, Don and Sheila Allen, were the ones who received that money to experience grace that they didn't deserve. We're just showing up for a wedding.

 

And then at the reception, I don't know if we ever shared this with you, they found us and insisted that we take that with us on our honeymoon. [00:51:01] And when we tried to resist, they said, "No, no, no, it's grace." And so that grace upon grace has been evident through these stories that you've shared and through what Christ models that he gives us more than we could ever ask or imagine and definitely more than we deserve. So thank you for illustrating that so well. 

 

Again, we will put the links to the website and your phone number. Is there anything else we can add if we want to support your vision or read your book?

 

Dave Pridemore: That's pretty much it. We just love what we do. We see so many changed lives. Just pray for the summers for Camp Grace and for salvation for the hearts of kids.

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Dave, you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:52:05] 

 

Dave Pridemore: I think my savvy sauce is just pretty practical. And praying without ceasing is just chatting with God as you go through the day. I think it's really important that you stay connected and you just talk to Him like he's your best friend. When you have concerns, just talk to yourself. I call it self-talk. But I think it's just a practical thing to just pray in a sense is just talking to God throughout the day as you walk and go about your business.

 

Laura Dugger: What a wonderful savvy sauce that is and something that you model so well. Dave, I am so grateful for you and your faith and your ministry and just the impact and legacy that you've left on our lives and through this chat today. So thank you very much for being my guest.

 

Dave Pridemore: Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for the invite. [00:53:04] 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:54:10] We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

 

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? [00:55:11] 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:56:11] 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: What to Do When You Don't Like Your Story with Sharon Jaynes

*Disclaimer* This episode includes thematic material.

 

Special Patreon Release: What to Do When You Don't Like Your Story with Sharon Jaynes

 

**Transcription Below**

 

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;" Revelation 12:11a (KJV)

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. In your book you share the secret to living a better story—will you share what that secret is? 

2. What are some ways we can break free from shame of the past to find joy in our present? 

3. How does the sharing of our story—both highs and lows—help us heal? 

 

Sharon Jaynes is a conference speaker and the author of twenty-five books. She served as vice president and radio cohost of Proverbs 31 Ministries for ten years and currently writes for their online devotions.

Sharon is cofounder of Girlfriends in God, which strives to cross generational, racial, and denominational boundaries to bring the body of Christ together as believers. She and her husband live in Weddington, North Carolina.

 

Connect with Sharon on Facebook, Instagram, or Her Website

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

When You Don't Like Your Story by Sharon Jaynes

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Famous at Home Podcast

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears. 

 

I'm excited to recommend an additional podcast to check out. Famous at Home with Dr. Josh and Christi Straub. I love listening to their podcast, and I think you will too. 

 

Sharon James is my returning guest. I love Sharon's transparency as she is about to share her testimony, and the pages from her story she used to wish she could just rip out but God taught her the worst parts of our past are the very thing he uses the most. She's going to unpack what that means for each of us. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Sharon Jaynes: Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Sharon. Oh, it's good to be here. Had so much fun last time, I can't wait to chat again. [00:01:17] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'm excited about our time together as well. Last time, you had given us just a little glimpse into your life story, but I would enjoy if you would be willing to dive a little bit deeper now.

 

Sharon Jaynes: Okay, well, I'm going to back up and tell a little bit of what I said last time, because I know we'll probably have new listeners today. But I was raised in eastern North Carolina in a small town. My father had a business. My mom had her own business. We lived in a nice neighborhood and a nice ranch-style house. I had an older brother, and we had a collie dog named Lassie. 

 

So it just looked like an all-American family. But you know what, Laura, there was a secret behind that pretty door, and the secret was that my parents fought verbally and physically in front of us. I saw many things as a child I shouldn't have seen, heard words I didn't even know what they meant, but I knew how they made me feel. 

 

I remember hiding in my room at night when my parents would fight. [00:02:17] My dad drank a lot, and he would hit my mom. She would hit back. She was a very bitter, angry woman. 

 

I grew up a lot of my childhood just afraid. I can remember going in the closet at night and hiding, and sometimes I would sneak in my brother's room, and we would hide together. 

 

The next day after one of those fights, maybe my mom would have a black eye or she'd have a cut, and she'd go into a passive-aggressive mode where she wouldn't speak for a few weeks. And my dad, after the next morning, after one of these fights, he would always be crying at the kitchen table saying how sorry he was and that he would never do it again. But he always did. It was kind of a cycle in my home. It was not a good story. This was not a good story.

 

When I was 12 years old, there was a woman in my neighborhood, my best friend. My best friend was Wanda. She was a little redheaded girl, and I loved being down at her house on the next block because her parents loved each other. They would hug and kiss in front of us and had such a strong marriage and had such a happy family. [00:03:21] 

 

I really didn't know why they were so happy all the time, but I knew it had something to do with Jesus because Mrs. Henderson, even though I loved her, I thought she was a little odd because she would walk around the house singing little praise songs, and she would talk about Jesus like she knew Him personally. And I thought that was very strange.

 

Because, you see, Laura, as bad as my family were, there was alcohol, there was pornography. I mean, you name it, it went on behind that door. And as bad as we were, we went to church on Sundays, and we walk into that very politically correct church, and people would say, "How are you today?" And we would say, "Fine". But we weren't fine, and I imagine a lot of people around us weren't fine. 

 

Well, I started spending Saturday nights a lot over at the Henderson's home, which meant I would go to church with them on Sunday. And when I went into their Bible teaching church, I noticed there were a lot of people who talked about Jesus like they knew Him personally.

 

I couldn't have explained it this way then, but what I was seeing is there is a big difference between having a religion in your life and having a relationship with Jesus. [00:04:28] I wanted that relationship with Jesus like they had. 

 

So when I was 14, I did accept Christ as my Savior, and He did forever change my life. But the hard part was, Laura, that I had to go back home and to live in that violent environment. But that's kind of the backdrop, the backdrop of not having a good story and how that story has turned into My Greatest Victories, which is the title of the book, When You Don't Like Your Story, subtitled What If Your Worst Chapters Could Become Your Greatest Victories? And that story has become one of my greatest victories. That's kind of how it started. 

 

You know, a lot of my books have come out of that experience, and that's one way that it has become a great victory. One of my books is called Enough: Silencing the Lies That Steal Your Confidence.

 

For example, growing up the way I did, I constantly felt like I wasn't good enough, wasn't smart enough, wasn't pretty enough. [00:05:29] But God used all that in my life to show me how to replace lies with truth. And so that's what I do now is I help other women learn how to have better stories and to learn how to replace the lies that they've heard as children and as adults with God's truth. So that's kind of the cliff notes of the, let's say, the first 14 years.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you, first of all, for sharing your story. Was that the catalyst for writing this book?

 

Sharon Jaynes: The catalyst for writing this book is that I've been ministering with women for about 25, 30 years. I have watched God turn my worst chapters into my greatest ministry tools. I've watched God take my broken stories and turn them into beautiful prose.

 

The pages that I wanted to rip out, God said, oh, no, we're going to highlight that because you're going to use that to help minister to other people. [00:06:33] So that process started early in my ministry. 

But as I have worked and loved on women for all these years, I've seen that so many are stuck in the bad chapters of their story and they don't know how to get out of those bad chapters. So that is why I wrote the book is to help women who were stuck and struggling with the worst parts of their story. 

 

Because usually, Laura, it's not the whole of someone's story that they don't like. Usually, it's just certain pages or certain chapters. And they really want to go through and rip out those pages or delete those pages, those certain experiences in their lives. But we cannot delete, discard, or mend the past. But we can repurpose what we've gone through to reclaim the present and say, "God, how can I use what I've gone through to now help someone else? 

 

So that's really the impetus for writing the book. [00:07:33] It's really not about me. It's about helping everyone who has any chapter, any story in their life that tends to continue to control them. I want to show them how don't get stuck there, but how you can move forward and use what you've gone through now for God's glory.

 

Laura Dugger: To go a little bit further with that, then, will you elaborate how and why you recommend we all share our stories?

 

Sharon Jaynes: Let me give you an example. Let's go back to my father. Three years after I came to Christ, I went out of the country actually to study. This was before my senior year. I told my mom at this point when I was 17, when my parents would get in a fight, I would be the one to break them up. 

 

When I was 17, I had opportunity to leave for three months, but I didn't want to go because I thought, who's going to break up the fights? If I leave, who's going to take care of my parents? See, I had stepped into that parent role, which happens a lot when you grow up in a family like that. [00:08:37] 

 

But my group of 17-year-old friends... listen, Laura, when you get teenagers in love with Jesus and on fire for the Lord, they are something. Well, my group of 17-year-old friends, they said, "We prayed about it. We think you should go." So the night before we prayed over my house. I mean, we were something else. Prayed over my house, walked around that house. And I told my mom, "If something happens when I'm gone, you've got to go to Mrs. Henderson because I'm not going to be here to help you." 

 

First night I was gone, my dad came home drunk, started a fight. Mom ran down to Mrs. Henderson's. And that night my mom gave her life to the Lord. So I always laugh and say, "I was messing in their business so much. God had to get me out of the country before he can deal with my mom." And listen, that's a lesson for parents. Sometimes we can get so involved in our kids' lives that God can't do what He needs to do because we're buttoned in. 

 

So I was gone. My mom came to Christ and came home and told my dad she was going to forgive him for what he had done, everything he had done. [00:09:38] And listen, Laura, I would never, ever encourage a woman to stay with an abusive man. Never. Hear me say that. You need to be safe. 

 

But my mom chose to stay. And that night my father quit drinking. Cold turkey. Never drank again. But the way he told me when I came home, he said, "I will go to church with you, but I could never become a Christian because there's too many things I've done in my life. God could never forgive me." 

 

Of course, Laura, I told him exactly what you would have told him, is that, "Dad, none of us could be good enough. If we could be good enough, Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross." But He just could not understand that kind of grace. 

 

Now, I want you to fast forward three more years. So this is six years after I came to Christ. Both of my parents had their own business. My dad had a building supply company, my mom had a craft shop and taught art classes.

 

So my mom had gone on a business trip to a craft show somewhere up in Pennsylvania. [00:10:42] We lived in North Carolina. My dad was about to be sued in his business world because he had signed a contract with another company and was breaking a restrictive contract. So he was going to be taken to court and he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. 

 

So for three years... see, I've been praying for my dad for six years. My mom and her friends praying for three. So my dad was about to have a nervous breakdown. He got in his car... Now, hold on to your seatbelts here. I'm going to tell you this fast. He got in his car and drove to Pennsylvania to try to find my mother. He could not find her. He stopped at a church and he said, "I need somebody to pray for me. Is a priest here?" "No," the secretary said, "the priest isn't here. But I know a pastor, a Baptist pastor, who's out in the woods building his church." 

 

She drew a little map on a scrap piece of paper and gave it to my dad. He got this little scrap piece of paper. He drove in the woods somewhere in Pennsylvania with a man I'll never know. [00:11:44] And he drove up to this fellow and he said, "I need for you to pray for me." And the pastor said, "Well, sit down, Alan. Let's sit on this lock and tell me what's going on." 

 

So, probably, Laura, for the first time in his life, my dad told this man everything he had done and what was going on in his life. Now, the way my father explained it to me, this man then put his arm around my dad and he said, "No, Alan, let me tell you what I've done." And the way dad explained it, he said, "Sharon, everything I had done in my life, this man had done too. And I knew that if God could forgive him and he could be a pastor, then God could forgive me, too."

 

You see, Laura, that is the power of our story. My father had been going to church with us for three years, but he didn't see anybody like him. Do you think they were there? Absolutely. There were men there who had struggled like he had, but nobody was telling their story. But God had to take him all the way to Pennsylvania to hear a man who had a similar story for my dad to see the grace of God could work in his life as well. [00:12:51] That's the power of our story. 

 

You know, it tells us in Revelation they overcame him... This is talking about the devil. They overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. You think about that. Our story is so powerful that it's in the same sentence with the blood of the lamb. So no wonder the devil doesn't want us telling it. No wonder he wants us to be ashamed of it and tells us, "Keep it to yourself because people are going to like you. They're going to think less of you." No wonder, because he knows that is what will destroy him along with the blood of the lamb. 

 

So that was one of the first times that I saw how important someone's story was to change someone's life. In the book, I talk about four steps to having a better story or turning your worst chapters into your greatest victories. But the last step is to tell your story. Because I think once you go through and you use your story, the bad parts of your story for good, and you show people how God has redeemed you, and that's such a big church word, but it basically means to exchange something bad for something good, how God has changed you, then once we use it for good, Satan can't use it against you anymore. [00:14:13] 

 

You leave the pain place and you leave the shame place because, you know, God is using it for His glory. So Satan's not going to throw it back in your face anymore. It's now something giving glory to God, not something that we have to hide and be ashamed of.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Have you ever found yourself in a moment with your loved ones where you were there, but you weren't really all there? Your mind was chasing identity outside the home as your loved ones chase your attention inside the home? Welcome to the Famous at Home podcast with marriage and leadership coaches, Dr. Josh and Christi Straub. 

 

Let's be honest. We've all been there where we've given our leftovers to our biggest fans who actually live under our same roof instead of giving them our best. But here's the good news. It doesn't take major life changes to shift how we show up. 

 

With this realistic, grace-filled look at the struggles families face, The Famous at Home podcast is like having a cup of coffee with authentic friends who just get you. [00:15:16] Yet it also offers practical and life-changing coaching strategies to help spouses, parents, and leaders stay emotionally engaged and connected to their biggest fans. 

 

With topics designed to help you become a rock star in your own home, set healthy rhythms between work and home, and build a rock-solid marriage, The Famous at Home podcast will encourage and inspire you. 

 

I've personally listened to this podcast for years, and I highly recommend even going back to the beginning and listening from the start because there are timeless truth principles packed in all of these episodes, such as the lies our screens tell us or taking care of yourself as a parent.

 

My husband and I have gotten to spend just a little bit of time with these two in recent years, and I can attest that they are full of integrity both on and off the air. So I am thrilled to get to recommend The Famous at Home podcast because the greatest red carpet you'll ever walk is through your front door. 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, well, you've given us the last one, so now can you share some more of those first steps to having a better story? [00:16:22] 

 

Sharon Jaynes: Okay, well, let's just start at the beginning. I think the first thing we have to do is to go back and look and see what are those pages? What is the part of my story that I'm not letting go of it?

 

I mean, I met somebody yesterday, and we were talking about their story, and they just went back and they talked about... I mean, this is something that happened to them 30 years ago, and rather than wanting to move forward and wanting to be well and having a better story, for 30 years, she had been picking at a scab is the way I describe it. 

 

We can have something happen in our lives, something... There's two ways: something done to us by someone else or something done through us. Maybe, Laura, it's something we've done ourselves, and we keep beating ourselves up about it and listening to the enemy who's telling us, reminding us what we did and how we did it. 

 

You know, the Scripture says that God throws our sins into the deepest of seas. But I love what Corrie Ten Boom says. Sometimes, you know, he puts up a message that says "no fishing allowed", but we go back in and fish it back out, and we live in a place of condemnation, but we've got to think, am I picking at a scab? Am I not allowing God to heal it? [00:17:37] 

 

Remember when Jesus went to the pool and there was a man... There was a pool that the lame would sit around and the infirmed, and they believed that when the water stirred, an angel stirred it, and the first one in would get healed. 

 

Well, Jesus goes up to this pool of water, and there's a man who has been lame for 38 years, sitting by this pool, waiting to be the first one in. Jesus walks up to this man, and it was always, to me, seemed like such a strange question. He said, "Do you want to get well?" 

 

Now, that is a strange question, but let's think about it a minute. So many times when we've been hurt by someone, Jesus comes up to us and asks the same question. Well, do you want to get well? Do you want to let go of that pain? Do you want to let go of the bitterness? Do you want to let go of the anger, or you want to hang on to it? And that's something we have to decide. Do I want to get well? [00:18:36] 

 

If we decide, yes, Lord, I want to get well, we decide, I will not live bitter. I will not live angry. I will not live disappointed. I don't want to live discouraged or wounded or ashamed any longer. I am not going to live just as a victim of my circumstances. I want to get well. I am going to stop picking at the scab and allow God to heal that wound. That's the first step, making a decision.

 

Then the second step, again, is either what's been done to us or through us. So let's look at what's been done to us. I'll call that leaving the pain place. That involves forgiving others. And that is so hard for us Christians, is forgiveness. And yet it's amazing. That's what our whole faith is built on. The whole Christian faith is built on the forgiveness of our sins. And yet we struggle with forgiving others. [00:19:33] 

 

One time I went to a college football game. And I was sitting on the end of a row. And the people were walking up the stands. They had the concrete steps. And right beside me, where I was sitting by that step, people kept tripping. It really got comical because they weren't getting hurt. They were just tripping on the step. And they would spill their drink. After a while, it was just kind of funny.

 

So at the halftime, I thought, why are they tripping on this step? So I got up and I measured the steps. And that step right beside me was like a quarter of an inch taller than the other steps. And I thought, Lord, that's why we trip on the step of forgiveness. It's just a little bit harder than some of the other disciplines in the Christian faith. It's a little bit harder. We have to pick up our feet a little bit more. But it is so important. 

 

And until we forgive people for what they have done to us, we will never be healed and we will never have a better story. That's how important it is. [00:20:41] 

 

Now, let me say this. Let me tell you what forgiveness is and is not. Forgiving someone is not saying that what they did doesn't matter. It's not saying that it was okay or that it did not happen. Forgiveness, the actual Greek word... see, the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the New Testament was written in Greek. And the Greek word means to cut someone loose. So forgiveness means to cut someone loose. 

 

Think of it as if you got up every morning and the people you didn't forgive, you strap them on your back and you're carrying that burden around with you, that burden of unforgiveness. Well, forgiveness means to cut that burden loose and to let them go free.

 

So when we forgive someone, we're cutting them loose, we're letting them go free and we're going to let God deal with it. Because you know what, Laura, when we don't forgive someone, the people we don't forgive, they don't care. A lot of times they don't even know that we're carrying this burden around. It's only hurting us. It's only keeping us in a sick place.[00:21:43] And it's keeping us in a very dark chapter. 

 

And it's only when we cut them loose and let them go that that wound… we can stop picking at it, how it was done and who did it and when they did it, stop picking at it and allow it to heal, to become a beautiful scar that then represents a story in our life of something amazing God has done with us. 

 

Let me tell you two different sentences. I did not write these sentences, but they're so powerful. One is forgiveness is setting the prisoner free and then realizing that the prisoner was you. The other is unforgiveness is like drinking a poison and waiting for the other person to die.

 

So forgiveness is a gift that we give ourselves. And once we forgive those people who have hurt us, it changes the ending. It will help change the ending of our story.

 

Laura Dugger: What an important topic to cover. [00:22:43] Those are just the first two steps. Could you elaborate on the third?

 

Sharon Jaynes: Well, the third step, just as we forgive other people, sometimes the person that we have the hardest time forgiving is that person that we're looking at in the mirror. The hardest person to forgive sometimes is ourselves. 

 

Now, some will say, well, forgiving yourself isn't really a biblical principle. It's really about receiving God's forgiveness. But you know what? People say, I can't forgive myself. So let's just meet people where they are. Receiving God's forgiveness and forgiving yourself are kind of tethered together. 

 

But sometimes we will have things in our lives. Someone might've had an abortion in their past, or they might've been unfaithful or had sexual promiscuity in their past. I mean, there's a long list. And I hear women say, "I know God's forgiven me. I've prayed that God will forgive me and I know He has, but I just can't forgive myself." [00:23:42] 

 

You know what?  That is like saying that what Jesus Christ did on the cross is not enough. It's like saying what He did for us, that there's something more that we have to do to earn that grace and forgiveness. But we can't do anything to earn it. We simply have to receive it. 

 

So we have to let go of the shame and condemnation. And listen, shame and condemnation was... we saw that in the garden of Eden. That was one of the first things that happened to Adam and Eve. Once they disobeyed God is shame entered the world and they felt condemnation and they hid and they try to cover their shame with those leaves. And God said, no, we got to have a sacrifice, an animal sacrifice.

 

The first question in the whole Bible is God coming and looking for Adam and Eve and saying, Where are you? So even in our shame place, God calls us, where are you? And He's calling us to leave that shame place and to come out of this shame place and be clothed in his grace. [00:24:46] 

 

Shame, just like we saw with Adam and Eve, it hides authenticity. See that's going to keep us from sharing our story. It denies responsibility. It blames vehemently. It blocks vulnerability. Shame breeds insecurity. It destroys dignity. It shackles us to our past.  And shame keeps our story stuck in the worst chapters and it blocks our ability to move forward, to have better chapters.

 

So we have to come out of that shame place and say, Jesus, thank you for giving your life for me. Thank you that you did that so that I can be free of my sin and I can live a different story. So coming out of the shame place is key. The third step of having a better story and how those worst chapters can become our greatest victories.

 

Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." [00:25:51] And because our tagline here is practical chats for intentional living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life. What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that's improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com.

 

We've already mentioned the healing that's available, especially as we share our stories, that it not only heals us, but it provides comfort and healing to those who are listening to it. But how do we know if someone is safe or if we want to begin sharing our story, who should we share it with first?

 

Sharon Jaynes: Well, I believe we need to find someone who loves us no matter what. Find that one person. If you've got parts of your story, you've never told anyone, find that one person that you know is going to love you and not judge you. 

 

I have many example within the pages of this book of women doing that and telling someone for the first time, you know, what they have done in their life. [00:26:53] I remember sitting with a girl at a women's retreat. Precious. Oh, she was so precious. She shared about how her stepdad had begun to abuse her when she was a teenager and she ran away from home with nothing. This woman found her and said, "I know how you can make some money and support yourself." And she became a prostitute, not very long, but she did sell her body for prostitution. 

 

Now this is years later, she's married to a wonderful man, she has children, everybody thinks she's just precious. She said, "I've never told anybody this, but I'm telling you." And I said, "Well, how does it make you feel?" She said, "It makes me feel free because you don't look at me any differently now than you did before I told you."

 

So I suggest you find one person that you can tell and share it with them. And just think about the freedom that you feel when you tell your story. 

 

You know, I love the story of Joseph. [00:27:56] He had a bad story to begin with. Joseph, if you recall, was one of the favorite sons, his father, he had the coat of many colors and he was the least favorite sibling of all of his brothers. And he had a dream that, that he was going to be at some point in his life, his father and his brothers and his mother were all going to bow down to him. And in his naivety, I guess he told his brothers that dream, which made them hate him even more.

 

And over the next several years, Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. He was falsely accused of attempted rape by the man who owned him, his wife. He was thrown into prison. And at each step it says God was with him. But this did not look like a good story. And I imagine Joseph was thinking, this is not how this story is supposed to go. 

 

But eventually he ended up interpreting one of the Pharaoh's dreams, about seven years of plenty followed by seven years of want. [00:29:01] And he was made second in command of Egypt. And that dream finally came to fruition. 

 

Now, when he had his sons, he named one Ephraim and one Manasseh. And before his father Jacob died, he took his sons to be blessed and he put his sons before his dad. Manasseh was supposed to get the blessing and Ephraim was there also, but Manasseh the oldest would get the main blessing from his grandfather. And Joseph put his oldest son right in front of his father's right hand to receive the blessing. But then Jacob crossed his hands and he gave the better blessing to the youngest.

 

Now what's so important about that? Well, Manasseh's name meant God has caused me to forget in the land of my suffering. Ephraim, his youngest son, meant God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my suffering. So what got the better blessing? It's not enough just to forget. We can be fruitful in the land of our suffering. [00:30:01] That is the son that got the better blessing. 

 

And when we share our stories, we can be fruitful in our suffering, not just forgetting. So forgetting about it is not enough. That's not the better blessing. The better blessing is to use what we've gone through and to help other people. 

 

You know, it tells us in scriptures, it says, God comforts us in all of our afflictions so that... and man, those two words are important. So that we can in turn comfort someone when they're struggling with the same comfort we've received from God.

 

That's kind of convoluted there, but basically what that verse Paul is saying, God doesn't comfort us just to make us comfortable. God comforts us so that we can comfort other people, makes us comfort-able. One way that God redeems our stories is we can use what we've gone through to then comfort someone else.

 

You know, Laura, for years I went through infertility and I lost a child. And when those things happened to me, who did I want to talk to? [00:31:00] I wanted to talk with someone who had gone through the same struggles that I had gone through, someone who had also lost a child, someone who had also gone through infertility.

 

We have gone through particular struggles in our lives and God will bring people across our paths who need to hear our particular story. At that point we will have a decision to make. Am I going to share my story or am I going to keep it to myself?

 

You know, there was some parts of my story that honestly at the beginning I really didn't want to tell. Then I sensed from God, Him speaking to my heart and Him saying, "Would you rather people think well of you or think well of Me?" And I'm like, "Oh Lord, I want people to think well of you." So honestly there's nothing I'll hold back any longer. 

 

Now I want to say one thing, Laura, because I think this is so important. As we've talked about these four steps to healing, let me tell you what I'm not talking about. I am not talking about just going out and telling people every bad thing that's ever happened to you or every bad thing that you've ever done. [00:32:03] Just sharing the bad part of your story. That's not going to help anyone.

 

What does help someone is when we do share what has happened to us and how God has healed us, how we share what we have done, and how God has forgiven us and we've moved forward. So it's not like we're telling this long story of everything bad that's happened and then at the end we tack on Jesus, give Him a little sideline at the end,"Oh yeah, then I met Jesus and everything's fine." That's not what I'm talking about. 

 

I'm talking about using our story is almost like a modern-day parable of how Jesus can do in your life, how He can heal you, how he can get you through these dark times and show you His glory. So I wanted to clarify that too.

 

Laura Dugger: I think it's so helpful to hear how this has proven true in your own life. That's so hard to hear what all you've gone through, and yet I can see why that would very much help others. And you can glorify God through sharing that. [00:33:04] 

 

So how can all of us view our story through a lens that makes it all worthwhile?

 

Sharon Jaynes: When you go to the eye doctor, if you've ever been before, you know, you sit down in the chair and they have the eye chart up and they put a lens down. They say, which can you see the chart better? Lens one or lens two? Lens three or lens four? And we pick which lens helps us to see the chart the best, the clearest. 

 

I think we need to make sure that we are looking at our stories through the right lens. Looking at our stories through the sovereignty of God, the grace of God, or looking at it through grumbling and saying how much we don't like our story. 

 

You know, going back to Joseph, remember his story did not turn out like he thought he would. Those 20 years or so of him getting from his father's house to Egypt. But when his brothers came to him and he revealed who he was, that he was indeed the boy that they had sold into slavery and they were scared to death, don't you know they were, he said, "You know what? [00:34:11] You meant evil against me, but God had been it for good, the saving of many lives." 

 

And it's so easy for us to look through that lens of, oh poor me and I can't believe this happened and why this, why me? Why now? We can look through that lens and get stuck there or we can look at the better lens, that lens that says that God uses all things to work together for the good. That doesn't mean all things are good.

 

I'm not going to say losing my child was a good thing, but I am going to say that God has used it for good because now I can empathize with someone who has gone through that same struggle and I can share with them the healing power of God. Because you see my pain qualifies me to know what I'm talking about. 

 

So many times we think that what we've done in our lives or maybe what was done to us disqualifies us. But no, it qualifies us to know what we're talking about and it makes us believable,  it makes hope conceivable and it makes God visible. [00:35:13] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And Sharon, there's still so much more that we could cover that we won't have time for today, but if people want to learn from you further, where would you direct them to find you online?

 

Sharon Jaynes: They can go to Sharonjaynes.com and my last name is J-A-Y-N-E-S. So Sharonjanes.com. This book has a Bible study in the back of the book. So it's great for people to do with a friend or to do in groups. 

 

Also on my website there are videos. So there are video lessons that go along with the study guide in the back of the book. You can also get the book on Amazon, [TBD?], your local bookstore, Barnes and Noble, you know, anywhere where you tend to buy Christian books, it's there too. There are some extra resources on my website that go along with the book if they want to check it out there.

 

Laura Dugger: Perfect. Okay. Well, we will link to all of that in our show notes today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical. [00:36:18] And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Sharon Jaynes: I think when it comes to When You Don't Like Your Story, the savvy sauce for me is really listening to other people's stories, loving on people when they tell me their stories, and then using those stories as modern-day parables. That really helps me to make it practical. 

 

As you'll read these stories in the book, you'll see that when we have a modern-day parable, just like when Jesus told parables, when He talked about the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, it's like yeast that's in the dough. It makes it practical for us and it helps us to understand what He's talking about. 

 

And I think it's the same way when we listen to other people's stories and when we tell our stories. It makes it very practical to say, this is what Jesus looks like and this is what He does.

 

Laura Dugger: You articulate all of that so well. I appreciate your vulnerability and your willingness to go first. [00:37:20] You've been such a role model to all of us for how we can start to share our stories to heal ourselves, to benefit the listener, and ultimately to glorify God. So, Sharon, thank you again for being my guest.

 

Sharon Jaynes: Thank you.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:38:21] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

 

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:39:20] We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. [00:40:22] We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow

230. Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood?

2. Do you have any counsel for us as we navigate the teen years, especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships?

3. If we do find ourselves in a child-centered family today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and our marriage?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. 

 

Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.

 

He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.

 

Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow:

Visionary Family Website

Family Vision Podcast

Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow

 

Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow:

87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow

Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow

 

Other Episode Recommended from The Savvy Sauce:

228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom

(When you get your Aro Box, use code SAVVY for 1 month off a prepaid annual membership & 2 months off a two year membership)

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: My guest, Dr. Rob Rienow, is returning to share wisdom, encouragement, and stories to help us lead our families with intention. He is such a fantastic guest that this is actually his third time back. 

 

But before I get to his introduction, I want to share an update. A couple weeks ago, Joey Odom was my guest, and he was also sharing practical and intentional ways to parent, that time specifically related to technology. So I sure hope you don't miss that episode either. 

 

Joey followed up to say, if our guests use the code Savvy at checkout for their own Aro Box at GoAro.com, then they're going to get one month off a prepaid annual membership or two months off a two-year membership. So I'll make sure and add all of those links in the show notes. But I just wanted to share my personal update with you on that. [00:01:18] 

 

So as soon as I had heard about Aro, I instantly reached out to Joey to invite him to be my guest, even though we didn't own an Aro Box at that time. But after we recorded that episode, our Aro Box arrived and we put it to immediate use.

 

I have to say, we also reached immediate benefits. I was so excited that I had to share, because our hope for this podcast is to share joy. And we pray everyone listening applies the lessons that they've learned, so we can all experience a more abundant life, both now and forever more. 

 

This usually comes through applying small changes after inspiration from our guests. So my application from that episode was to get an Aro Box and try it out. My husband and I have delighted in putting our phones in the Aro Box, and it's prompted some great conversation with our daughters already.

 

I thought that we had been pretty disciplined to keep our phones away when we were in the presence of others, but this actually revealed the gap between my perception and our reality. [00:02:27] Having our phones physically away immediately made me feel more focused and less distracted. 

 

For those 15 minutes, the first time I used it, it was a time when our food had 15 minutes left in the oven. So rather than sending an email to our daughter's teacher or adding groceries to our online list, which are both things I had the urge to do during that time, I instead engaged with our daughter, Isla, in a game of keepy-uppy with a balloon in our kitchen. It was so fun, and it turned out to be the most memorable part of my day. 

 

So let me know your thoughts and your experience as well, whether it's with your own Aro Box or with any other takeaway from The Savvy Sauce that you've applied in your own life. I would love to get the opportunity to someday share your stories on this podcast. 

 

And now back to today. I found it so energizing to learn from Dr. Rob as he shared parenting wisdom and even his most influential keystone habit that positively impacted his family life. [00:03:35] It is a universal concept that would seemingly benefit every one of us listening, so make sure you don't miss this recommendation. 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to the Savvy Sauce, Rob.

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Thank you, Laura. I've been looking forward to reconnecting with you.

 

Laura Dugger: Will you just start us off by sharing why intentional parenting and grandparenting is so important to you?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned grandparenting because we are in that world now. Our daughter, Lissy, just had her second child, a Christmas baby. His name is Ernest, and so he's just two, three months old now. And their daughter, Avie, is coming up on two this summer. 

 

As I shared with you before, we've been blessed with seven kids, ages 26 down to 10. So this question of intentional parenting and grandparenting is really at the heart of our passion and calling. But it wasn't always that way. [00:04:38] 

 

The first 10 years of Amy's and my married life, I was a youth pastor, and as a youth pastor, I was just completely focused on other people's kids. I was doing discipleship with other people's kids and praying with other people's kids and responding to crises in the lives of other families. And it was a great season of ministry, but I was neglecting my family. I was neglecting my children, especially spiritually. 

 

I was not praying with my kids, was not reading the Bible with my kids, was not spiritually connected with Amy. I was very intentional at church and very intentional with other people's children, but not with mine. So that was the summer of 2004, that was about 20 years ago where God brought me to a place of repentance and brokenness, and as it says in Malachi 4 and Luke 1, turned my heart to the ministry of my kids and just convicted me that my ministry to them was my great calling. [00:05:41] Amy and I had to come together in our marriage for the purpose of doing everything we possibly could to point these kids to Christ.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, it's so helpful to hear your own experience because you have been through toddlers and adult children, so I'm very eager to hear your perspective. But let's just go through a few common phases of parenting, beginning with that initial transition into parenthood. So what encouragement do you have for parents with very young children in the home?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, well, I'm glad we're talking about these phases because it is a really difficult task that every parent struggles with. I've struggled with it tremendously to make the shifts in connecting with and leading and discipling children. 

 

What I mean by that is that if you treat an elementary school kid like a toddler, there's going to be a mismatch. They're going to be exasperated with your baby talk and all this. [00:06:43] If you treat your high schooler like they're still in junior high, they're ready to spread their wings, have more independence, and have more voice, and they're going to feel exasperated. You're going to be restricting them. Same thing if you treat your college kid like they're still in high school or your married kid like they're still in college. 

 

So we recognize that we've got to make these shifts. It's just really hard because we haven't done this before and we're learning as we go. But yeah, those first couple of years, I think a lot of things that Amy and I have learned through having seven kids, first of all, especially that first year. And I think about the need for mom to do everything that she can to recover from childbirth itself. But that's also emotional and spiritual in that year with that infant.

 

So kind of doing everything we can schedule-wise to say no to more things, to be more present in the home, to get our foundations deeper. [00:07:43] And for those that are married, as difficult as it is, there's so much attention on that little baby. But everything that you can do and Amy and I would not be like the model example of this. We realized after a lot of kids that we just had to do a whole lot better with everything you can do to take walks. 

 

Amy and I were just having a conversation the other day about our bedtime routine. It used to be... we don't always watch TV every night, but back in the day, if we were going to watch TV, if we're going to watch the news or sports or a show, there's only one TV and you turn it on and you sit there for half an hour and you hold hands and you watch whatever it is.

 

I'm not saying that's the best use of time, but at least we're doing the same thing. Now there's a tendency that, well, she's got a little screen, right? She's got her phone. I've got a little screen. I've got my phone. So maybe we're in bed and she's watching something and I'm watching something and we're in bed together. But that's really not connecting us at all. [00:08:39] And not that watching the same show was this great marriage-unifying thing, but we're even more separate because of the gizmos. 

 

So just really paying attention to that first year of saying, Okay, we need to double down on some marriage investment. We need to slow down, say no to as much as we can outside the house. And then this will be a common theme in our conversation. But be sure, be sure, be sure to start. Let's say it's your first baby to start your family Bible reading while that child is an infant. 

 

And people will say, Okay, what in the world are we doing? My three month old is not going to be learning anything from Bible reading. I agree. They're not, quote-unquote, "learning anything" certainly not academically. But starting your family Bible reading then in your family prayer time then is so important. 

 

Number one, I do think that spiritual things are happening in the heart of the child, that God's word is functioning on a spiritual level. But even equally important, it's building in the practice of family prayer and family Bible, because what most couples do, and this is what Amy and I did... and this goes all the way back. Let's say a Christian couple is dating and they think, well, it's really important for us to pray together and have a spiritual relationship. [00:09:55] 

 

So, well, life's crazy. Well, when we get engaged, we'll start praying together. Well, they get engaged and they don't start praying together. Then they said, well, when we get married, then we'll pray together, we'll live together, we'll have nothing else to do but to pray and read our Bible together. So then we'll do that. 

 

Well, they get married and life's crazy and they're not praying together then. And then they say, well, we'll pray together when we have kids and kids come. Well, you get the picture. It's always later, later, later. So getting your habit of family prayer and family Bible when that baby's an infant is super, super important.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that because then sometimes it's a little bit more effort on the front end to establish a new habit. But once you have that going, it's like brushing your teeth, something that you don't even think about. It's just a part of your daily life. As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Whoa, that's a feisty question. [00:10:54] Well, you're asking the question for the obvious observation and reason that the sport culture really has gone crazy in our culture, particularly the travel sports, because when we were growing up, there was park district sports for elementary school kids.

 

And if you wanted to play baseball or basketball or soccer or softball, you signed up at the park district like all the other kids in town and it cost a minimal amount of money. And there was one practice and one game a week and all of that.

 

Well, now there's this pressure to get your kids into travel sports and to do that very early, five, six, seven, eight years old, because if your 7-year-old is not on elite gold travel soccer, then they're not going to be seen by the 9-year-old scouts. Right. Because the 9-year-old scouts are looking at the seven you elite gold platinum travel team. [00:11:53] 

 

And if they're not on the nine you team, well, then they're not going to be seen by the eleven you scouts. And if they're not seen by the eleven you scout, what you risk, of course, is you risk your child missing out on the pinnacle of all of human existence, which is high school varsity athletics. Obviously, tongue in cheek there a little.

 

So the problem is... we love sports in our family. All of our kids who have wanted to play sports have played sports. My eldest son played baseball all the way through college. My next son played basketball all the way through college. 

 

I've coached tons of baseball. I'm coaching baseball right now. So I ran the math, Laura. I think this is my 41st baseball season as a father this year. Forty-first. Seventeen seasons with my first son, thirteen seasons of baseball with my next, that makes 30, and then seven seasons with my third son. And then this is the fourth with my fourth son. I can't even keep track.

 

Now, I haven't coached all that. Baseball is a horrible game. [00:12:53] Nobody should play it because it's the worst game on the emotions for children. Kids cry multiple times during a single baseball game. Kids don't cry during soccer. There's no crying. Maybe if they lose. Baseball is the worst. 

 

Okay, back to our conversation. There's this incredible pressure to spend tons of money and tons of time very early for sports because of this pressure or this ideal that in order for them to have this pinnacle experience in high school or gosh, I want my kid to play. I want my kid to get a college scholarship, even though that's 0.001% of expectations that should be there. 

 

One of the interesting studies that came about... this was back in... a few years ago, they looked at sixth graders and they looked at who were the elite athletes in sixth grade and they tracked them through high school to find out what the correlation would be between the elite sixth graders and the elite twelfth graders. [00:13:52] 

 

And they found out that there was very little correlation between the top of the food chain in sixth grade and the top of the food chain in twelfth grade. The reason for that is because of the massive changes that occur in the kid's body. Some of those sixth graders, I'm talking boy sports now, some of those sixth graders had like full beards because they had pit puberty and they're destroying the little mouse like other boys in there who had not quite caught up. Some of the kids had totally dropped out of sports. Other kids are late bloomers. So this whole idea that your kid has to be the superstar in elementary school in order to excel later just isn't true. 

 

There's also massive financial mistakes that families make. ESPN did this thing where they took a family who did travel sports right from early elementary school and they added up all the costs of travel sports. And let's say that kid did get a college scholarship. On average, the scholarship that the kid received was 50% of the total amount the family had spent on travel sports, just getting them to get that scholarship. [00:14:54] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow.

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: I hope you didn't hear this. I'm not anti-sport. I've had two college athletes, lots of fun. The other thing for bigger families, it's oftentimes the oldest child that is getting all this investment. They're doing like weekends in hotels with dragging other children around and having them miss out on opportunities and things. So it can get totally out of whack.

 

Here's what we have tried to do and what we encourage families to do. Try to do park district sports through elementary school. Try to just stick with that, have them enjoy it, have them be a multi-sport athlete. If they're a super sports kid, one sport per season. 

 

Then if your child is super interested in high school sports and you want them to have a tune-up in junior high, then do the travel in junior high to prepare them for high school. And I know. I've had this conversation with a bazillion dads and moms, and I already know what they're saying. [00:15:53] "It's too late for them to do travel in junior high. They will fall behind. They'll never be caught up." Okay, I just don't buy it. If that's what you think, that's what you think. And you may be right. But that's the way we've approached it.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that because I think as you're even sharing, I'm processing and thinking it's like everything else that we're seeking the Lord for wisdom in life where the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us and give us wisdom as we need it. And I think that's such a practical way to go, because I guess my grief is... I agree. We love sports in our family and our daughters have enjoyed it. But also when we've taken time off, we've noticed levels of peace and enjoyment that they have in playing outside more and being with neighborhood kids and just having time for hospitality where I've noticed our relationships are usually at a deeper level, especially when we're in one another's homes, rather than more of the surface level that can come if we're rushing around to too many children's activities. [00:17:00] 

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Because the other piece of this has to do with Sundays. In a lot of these travel sports, you're going to have Sunday games, Sunday tournaments. That should create a significant concern for a Christian family. What we've seen a lot is families who, whenever there is a sport-church conflict, they choose the sport, and on the way to the sport, they give a little speech to the child.

 

So, "Hey, just because we're not in church today doesn't mean church isn't important and just wanted you to know that." Well, if every time sports and church collide for your family, you choose the sport, your speech means nothing to your child. You are telling your child what is more important to you. They don't pick their schedule, you pick their schedule. They don't sign up for stuff, you sign them up for stuff. So you are making the decision that if there is an ask at the sport and that conflicts with your calling at church, you choose the sport. [00:18:08] 

 

I'll tell you a story. We did everything we could to avoid sports on Sunday. I don't think playing sports on Sunday is a sin, but the Bible spends so much time talking about the importance of Sabbath. And so we said, well, this is really a day that we want to try to guard.

 

So my eldest son, this was the boy who played baseball through college, he was in fifth grade playing Park District baseball and his team made the championship game. This is a big deal. And it's Saturday morning championship and a game gets rained out and rescheduled for Sunday morning, 10 a.m. 

 

This was in our family's life, our first sports church conflict. So man, I was really struggling. Now, I wasn't preaching that particular day, so I'm like, All right, maybe we could go to the 8 a.m. service and then we could hustle over to the game and kind of do both. 

 

As a family, we were praying and we looked at Exodus chapter 20 and we looked at this scripture, Isaiah 58, which I'll share in a moment. [00:19:07] And I was, again, struggling with this. But my son, my 10-year-old boy, he basically said, you know what? If I play in the game, then Sunday is just like any other day. And Sunday's not any other day. So I'm not going to play. I don't want to play. And I was like, "Oh, man, are you sure, little buddy?" I mean, this is a big game.

 

He was kind of more convicted about it than me, so obviously we deferred to his conviction. So he said, "Well, what I want to do is I want to go to church and have our normal morning. And then I just want to go over to the game. We can go late. I won't play. I'll just be on the sideline." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are in Zambia on a mission trip. That's where we are. Or you broke your arm. Because we had no interest in making any sort of public statement or we don't play sports on the Sabbath. And none of that. It's just a personal decision. 

 

So he's like, "What's the problem? Why can't we go?" All right. Let's go. So we get over there midway through the game and all his teammates were all cool. [00:20:08] His coaches were all cool. But this dad comes up to me. Now, this is just a little background. This dad was a... all right, let's say the umpire makes a bad call and the proper response is for someone to shout profanity at the umpire. This guy would take care of that responsibility from the sideline. So do you know who we're talking about here? It's that guy.

 

Laura Dugger: Tracking with you.

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: So he comes over to me and says, "Hey, Rob, I see RW is not playing today. What's going on?" "Well, we don't play sports on the Sabbath, sir." No, I did not say that. I just, you know, tried to dig a little humble hole. Well, actually, I blamed RW. He didn't want to play. No, I didn't throw him under the bus either. I just tried to explain, "Well, Sunday for our family and decided not to play and not try to judge anybody."

 

And he says, "Well, Rob, you know I'm not much of a religious guy." I'm like, "Yes, I'm aware." And he said, "Well, but my respect for your family just went up four times." And he walks off. [00:21:08] And I'm like, "What in the world just happened?"

 

A year later, we're back on the same team with this family. Amy drops RW off for practice and this guy comes up to Amy first day of practice next year. He says, "Amy, Amy, hey, I just want you to know I haven't forgotten what your son did last year and made a difference in my life. Unbelievable." 

 

This scripture, listen to this. This is Isaiah chapter 58. "If you turn your foot back from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and you call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable. If you honor it, not by going your own ways, then you shall take delight in the Lord and I'll make you ride on the heights of the earth. I'll feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

 

So RW, he learned so much from that. And so every team he played on after that, before the season, he would say, "Hey, if there's Sunday games, is it okay if I'm not there?" And the coaches were like, "Yeah, that's no problem." So all the way through high school, all the way through a college career, never had to play a game on Sunday. [00:22:10] And the Lord really blessed him with that. 

 

Again, here's my point. I'm not saying playing sports on Sunday's a sin. I'm saying Sunday's a big deal and it ought to be a big deal for Christian families. 

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.

 

If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. 

 

They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Leman's". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. [00:23:09] 

 

I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.

 

Learn more at their website, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

Laura Dugger: Whatever decision we're facing, James 1:5 says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." And I think the way that you all sought after the Lord, He clearly guided you and then had greater purposes for that, because we never know what He's going to say unless we ask. [00:24:11] 

 

As we move along to the next phase, do you have any counsel for us as we navigate those teen years? I'm thinking especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships.

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, the first thing to do is to set proper expectations for the teen years for your child's growth and development. So, Laura, what I expect from my teenagers, I've got a 16-year-old girl and a 14-year-old boy right now. What I expect from them is that every month, every week, every year, they will become more mature, more godly, more responsible, more honoring, more diligent.

 

So if we were to graph them from the ages of 10 to 20, just draw a typical graph, the line would be going up and to the right. Nice straight line up and to the right. [00:25:11] 

 

So then my next question is, Laura, I'll ask you, was that your graph from 10 to 20? Would you say from the ages of 10 to 20, every year, every month, every week, I just got a little better? 

 

Laura Dugger: No. 

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: No. And if I put that graph in front of a thousand parents and I said, how many of you had this graph, not a single person would raise their hand. Every single teenager goes through tons of ups and downs, right? Good months, bad months; good years, bad years; struggles, advancement, one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back. 

 

So if your expectation is that your teenager is just going to slowly, steadily, predictably, continually, just get better and better, more and more faithful, more and more responsible, more and more godly, all those things, you're in for a tremendous, tremendous disappointment. So it helps us a lot just to recognize that there's no clean, pure path through these teen years. [00:26:11] 

 

You asked about technology, you asked about friendships and relationships, and that would be the case there. Gosh, I really want my kids to make perfect and holy decisions throughout their teen years regarding technology and social media and online junk and boundaries and all that. If that's your expectation, things are going to blow up very, very badly. So we have to expect our kids are going to struggle, expect that they're falling short. 

 

So the big win, what do we need, what are the most essential ingredients to get through the teen years? The big win or the most essential ingredient is what I want to call heart connection. It's rooted in Malachi 4 and Luke 1 where it talks about the work of the Holy Spirit turning the hearts of fathers, turning the hearts of parents to their kids, and the hearts of kids to their parents. It's also in Proverbs 23:26. Solomon is writing to his son there and he uses this incredible phrase. He says, "My son, give me your heart and let your eyes observe my ways." Give me your heart. [00:27:11] 

 

In other words, "Let me into your life. I want you to share everything that's going on with me. You be an open book, totally honest, totally transparent." And that really is where the battle for the teen years is, is, will the parent lovingly, persistently, consistently pursue the heart of the teenager and will the teenager give their heart to their mom or their dad?

 

In other words, will we walk through these very difficult years together or will we walk through them separate? This is especially true in areas of relationships, sexuality, secret sins. My generation growing up, I mean, when it came to like boy-girl relationships, romantic relationships, sexual relationships, I mean, really the only rule for all that was you did not talk to your parents about it.

 

Maybe you're a Christian, maybe you talk to your youth pastor about it or Christian friends, but you would not go to your parents and say, "Hey, I really think... Me, as a boy, I would not go to my mom and say, "Hey, there's this girl at church, I really think she's kind of pretty, and when thinking about asking her out." [00:28:19] I would never talk to my mom about that. That'd be crazy. 

 

So kids are going through and dealing with a lot of really big stuff that the world says, well, you want to make sure you don't talk to your parents about that.

 

So the task of building heart connection is the number one task because discipleship, any spiritual impact that you're gonna have, and my daughter, Lissy, she's got an incredible book on this called The Heart of Your Teen, but she has this phrase that any spiritual discipleship with your teenager is gonna first come through relationship. So if you don't have this heart-connected relationship with your teenager, you really don't have heart influence with them. There's a lot we could talk about there.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'm just processing because just personally, we're not quite there yet and so I'm recognizing that what we've done in the past doesn't work always in the future. I'll just share a personal example and see what your take is on this. 

 

So currently, with our daughters, there are two times that we especially get to deeper heart issues and topics together and that is whenever we can steal away one-on-one time. [00:29:28] I guess that is the only way, but the way that it plays out for us is bedtime one-on-one with each parent and then we have scheduled one-on-one dates. And there is just something so special about... I mean, ideally we're relationally building in all aspects of life, but those times really are when they open up. Is that your experience with your teens as well or were there any other practical ways that you cultivated the relationship with them at that phase?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, no, I think you're right on the money. You know, there's this old quality time versus quantity time, but quantity time is what gives you the chance for quality time. I had the blessing with my work with Visionary Family Ministries of being able to travel a couple of weekends a month to do our conferences, Visionary Parenting and Visionary Marriage conferences and so I'd always take one of the kids with me.

 

So we had this built-in opportunity for travel and fun and doing these events together and the heart connection that was formed there was so significant. [00:30:33] And even just yesterday, my daughter in college... we have nicknames for all of our kids and her nickname is Boots. 

 

So we have this thing called a BWB, which is Breakfast with Boots. I say, "Hey, can we do a BWB?" That means her and me, breakfast. And she just texted me yesterday from school. She's like an hour and a half away, right? She's like, "I need a BWB." And I love that because it was an indicator to me of our heart connection. It's not every time we're together and having breakfast, we're talking about deep, gory, personal things, but it creates the warmth.

 

So people ask, what is heart connection? Heart connection is warmth, closeness, openness, honesty, and trust. The default setting is not heart connection. The default setting for parents of teenagers, parents will say to me, Gosh, I feel like when I'm talking to my teenager, I'm talking to the wall. I'm like, Well, why do you think that? And they're like, "Because I am." And I'm like, "Ding, ding, ding, you are. Like that spider-sense that you have of you are not getting through here is absolutely right. [00:31:43] And you can see it in their body language. 

 

So parents will be like, I'm going to continue my speech or I'm going to talk louder. Well, you're totally wasting your time because you are talking to the wall. There's relationship stuff that has to get rebuilt before they're going to lower the guard of their heart to be able to listen to what you have to say.

 

Laura Dugger: That's so good. It seems like you've built in intentional practices throughout different phases. Even, I'm reminded, it was in one of our previous episodes. So I'll link to all of them in the show notes. But where you really emphasize how Deuteronomy talks about these built-in supernatural times that God has blessed with that definition that you just gave with the warmth. Do you want to share anything about that as well?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, let me tell a story about it. This had to do with my son, JD. He's 22, he's getting married this summer. But from the ages of 13, 14, 15, our relationship was not good. [00:32:43] Now, I had spent a lot of time with him when he was younger. I think I still was maybe coaching a little bit of his baseball. But when I was around, I oftentimes found him to be cold or bristly or just sort of annoyed. So, Amy was trying to help me with that, trying to diagnose what's happening here. Is there some element of just father-son angst and growing into manhood and stuff?  

 

Finally... it was funny. I have a book called Five Reasons for Spiritual Apathy in Teens. That's what I felt like I was dealing with with JD. And I'm like, "Well, I should do the stuff that I write about in the book." So it's kind of desperate times. One of the things we encourage parents to do if you feel like your child is hard-hearted toward you, it's to ask them, "Have I done anything to hurt you?"

 

So I went to JD and I said, "Hey, JD, have I done anything to hurt you? Because sometimes when I'm around, it kind of feels like you don't want me around and you seem kind of annoyed." [00:33:47] And he said, "Dad, no, you have not done anything to hurt me. You're a wonderful father. You write books on parenting. You're great." No, that is not what he said. He said, "Yeah, you have." And I'm like, "Well, can you tell me about it?"

 

It was fascinating what he said. He said, "When you talk to me..." he's 14 years old. He says, "When you talk to me, you talk to me more like my 8-year-old brother, Ray. And I want you to talk to me more like my 18-year-old brother, RW." So he's 14 and he's transitioning from childhood to adulthood. Basically, he said, you're treating me like a little kid. You talk to me still like I'm a little kid. You parent me still like I'm a little kid. You use a tone of voice with me like I'm a little kid. 

 

And he was looking and watching how I talked to RW. And I know we'll talk about that in a minute of how to transition into the adult years. But he was looking at the respect with which I talked to his older brother, the man-to-man relationship I had with his older brother. [00:34:47] He's like, "I want that." And he was exactly right. 100% right.

 

What I had been doing is what Ephesians 6:4 says not to do. Fathers do not exasperate your children. I was disrespecting him. I was treating him like a little kid and he wasn't a little kid anymore. 

 

So I had to ask his forgiveness and confess that to him, acknowledge he was absolutely right. And then ask him to help me because I wasn't doing it on purpose. I just had this massive blind spot to how I was relating to him and how I was exasperating him. So I had to say, "Look, JD., I'm very committed to learning a new way of connecting with you, but I'm gonna need your help. So when I do this... I wish I could just say, I'll never do it again, but I'm probably gonna do it again. So when I do it again, I need you to help me, remind me, you try to be respectful and honoring, and I'll try to make these changes." 

 

And really that was the start of a significant turnaround in our relationship. He moved out. I'm so terrible with time, Laura. Okay, this is spring 2024. He graduated college and moved out in summer 2023. [00:35:52] And I remember, you know, the driveway conversation with your child leaving the home for real is always a big one. And JD said to me, he said, "Dad, our relationship's never been better." And I just was so thankful. It was not a straight line, still not a straight line, but God really helped us through a tough time.

 

Laura Dugger: And what was sown in humility was reaped with gratitude. I love that. I think that's a great foundation is to begin with humility. 

 

How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.

 

You kind of alluded to it, but that next big transition for parents is the move to now parenting adults and possibly becoming empty nesters. So what do you want to make sure we don't miss here? [00:37:02] 

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, we've got to, first of all, talk about it. We actually have to talk about all these transitions with our kids because they're making difficult transitions as well. So when your kid's 18, if they're getting ready to get to work or get to school, we need to talk about it. We need to talk about the task of these 18 to 22 years, which fundamentally is shifting the parent-child relationship from parent-child to adult to adult. 

 

I'll pick on my oldest son as an example. So he's getting ready to go off to school, so we had to have a conversation. RW, during 18 to 22, we have to shift our relationship from father-son to man-to-man." Now, I will always be your dad. You'll always be my son. But I don't want that to be the template of how you and I relate to each other for the rest of our lives. Once you're an independent adult and you're off the payroll, that's very important, you're no longer dependent on me. The template for us should be brother in Christ. And we are side-by-side. [00:38:05]  It doesn't eradicate our father-son relationship, but the man-to-man is the priority. 

 

So we talked about it and we said, "Okay, you're 18, what would we have to do over the next four years to shift this? And the things we talked about, well, I, dad, I'm gonna have to treat you more like a man. I can't treat you like a kid anymore." RW's like, "Well, I have to act more like a man. I can't act like a kid anymore." 

 

Then we talked about, "Well, what can we do to build this sort of brother-in-Christ relationship?" Like if we were just brothers in Christ, what would we do? RW said, "Well, I guess we'd pray for each other. I mean, that's what Christian friends would do." I'm like, "All right. So while you're at school, when you need prayer, you text me. When I need prayer, I'm gonna text you. We're gonna become prayer partners."

 

So let's say Amy and I are having a difficult marriage day, I will zip a text to RW, "Hey, mom and I are having a tough marriage day to day. Could you please pray for softening of our hearts and healing for this conflict?" [00:39:06] And I've had some friends tell me as I've like shared that example, they're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're telling your kids about your marriage problems." I'm like, "Well, I mean, he lived with us for 18 years. He's not under any illusion and his parents have it all together. So I'm not like bursting any bubble on his side. 

 

And as I thought about it more, I'm like, "Who could be a safer person for me to share something deeply personal than my son? He's not gonna reject me. He's not gonna turn his back on me or shame me. He's with me no matter what. So even just that basic exchange of prayer requests has been very transformational for us. But I want to emphasize just simply the need to talk as a family about the transition and to talk about how everybody needs to play a role in making it.

 

Laura Dugger: Any specific ways to start that conversation or any questions that you recommend we ask?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah. [00:40:04] I think sometimes it's helpful to start off to see if your goal is the same. I'll give you an example in linking back in maybe to the teen years. We're talking about dating and relationships, etc.

 

So let's say that we've got a daughter. She's starting to get interested in boys and she wants to go to this dance and she's got this boy wants to be her boyfriend, etc., etc. So obviously we want heart connection, we want communication, but it's really helpful to see if our goals are the same. 

 

"So, honey, let me ask you a question. Is it your goal in the future? Would you want to get married someday? If you had a magic wand, would you..." "Oh yeah, I want to get married." "Do you want to marry a godly, wonderful husband?" "Yeah." "Do you want to have a Christian marriage that honors God?" "Yeah, I want to have a Christian marriage." "Do you want to have kids and raise children to love Jesus and they're gonna tell your grandchildren to love Jesus?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I want all that stuff." "Okay, so you want a thriving Christian family, is that? Are you saying that's what you want, honey?" "Yeah, mom, yeah, that's what I want." "Okay, well guess what? I want the exact same thing. So do you know like our end goal is identical right now? You want exactly what I want and I want exactly what you want. So, therefore, how about you and I do this path together? Like if we're going to the same place and you want what I want and I want what you want, doesn't it make sense for us to work on this together, talk together, pray together?" And most teenagers will be like, "Yeah, I guess that does make kind of sense if we're trying to go the same direction." [00:41:33] 

 

Now, if you want to go different directions, you have another, right, another challenge and another conversation to have. But that's a lot of what we can do with our adult kids.

 

They're 18, they're getting ready to work, they're getting ready to leave the house or they're leaving college and they're getting independent. "Hey, can I just want to talk about sort of our future? Can we talk about what our relationship might look like when you're 25?" "Let me tell you what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping that we have a warm, close relationship. I'm hoping that you're following Jesus and I'm following Jesus. I'm hoping that we're free and able to talk about things, disagree about things. I'm hoping that we're able to support each other and pray for each other and we have a wonderful adult-to-adult relationship. What do you think about all that?"

 

And hopefully your child says, "Yeah, that sounds good to me." "Great, all right, how are we gonna get there? How are we gonna make this transition from parent-child to adult-to-adult?" And you bring them in on the brainstorming.

 

Laura Dugger: What child would not appreciate that level of respect? [00:42:30] I think they would tend to rise up to it. So whether it's from your children's perspective or with you and Amy, when your family looks back, what efforts in parenting would you say have made the greatest relational impact throughout all these stages?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: The practice that has been the most essential is the one that was absent for me for so many years, like the first 10 years of our marriage was absent, but it was that practice of family worship. And by family worship, we mean that time of family prayer and family Bible reading, family singing when we can. I don't mean to weird people out about singing, but at least family prayer and family Bible reading and the discussion that connects to that. 

 

No question at all that that core practice became the engine that powers the family emotionally and spiritually. [00:43:30] And the driver for that, the driver for family worship has become less about discipline.

 

In other words, it's very important for us to be disciplined and do all these things. That the driver being neediness, of my own spiritual neediness, my own need to be in prayer with my family, my own need to be in scripture with my family. So we have a family worship room in our house. Every room in the house has a name. So there's bed rooms, because you go to bed there. You have a playroom, because you play there and a dining room, because you dine there. You name the different rooms in your house. 

 

So we have a family worship room and we name it that because that's the most important activity that happens in that room. In the middle of the room is our prayer table. It's actually a coffee table. And then there are two couches and a couple of tables with lamps on them. So coffee table, couches, lamps. Laura, what do normal humans call the room?

 

Laura Dugger: Probably the living room.

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, living room, family room, parlor. [00:44:30] I was in Georgia, a woman said, "That's the parlor." I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about. It's the living room." But yeah, we don't call it the living room. We call it the family worship room because that's the most important thing that happens in the room. 

 

We were moving... This was 10 years ago now. So my daughter Lainey, who's 20, she was 10. We were moving and so we were looking at different houses to rent or to buy and we're with a real estate agent visiting different houses. And on two different occasions, I had the same exact thing happen. So it really burned into my memory and I'm thankful for that. 

 

Lainey is my eager beaver girl. She wants to go first. She wants to be in there. So we get to this house and the real estate agent opens the front door and Lainey jumps into the entryway of the house and I'm third in line. So I'm coming in next. And I see Lainey quickly look left and look right and then she points to her right. She points to this room, she goes, "Dad, dad, this could be the family worship room." [00:45:32] And she was so excited to find this room. 

 

And it impacted my heart so deeply. And I'm like, "Why in the world is a 10-year-old girl trying to... why is she so excited about finding the family worship room in this new house? It struck me that she understood at this really young age that this spiritual meal for our family, these few moments of family prayer, few moments of family Bible, this really was the engine that powered our family. This was the meal that kept us spiritually strong and created an environment for us to confess our sins to each other and to receive forgiveness from one another. So even at 10, she just knew like, if we don't have that, we're in real trouble.

 

Laura Dugger: That's such an encouragement for each of us. I think if there's one practical takeaway that that is something we can leverage one of those ideas with, not minimal effort, but not that much effort to yield maximum results and enjoyment. [00:46:37] 

 

This next question, I'm curious, how can we recognize if we are drifting toward becoming a child-centered family? And then the other part is, if we do find ourselves in that place today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and for our marriage?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, it's a great phrase, this child-centered family. It's a new-ish phrase in the psychology world and in the family ministry world. Last couple of decades, people have been talking about it. There's good reason to warn against that. In other words, certainly warning against this idea that a child's whims and wishes determine everything. Like the child decides what we have for dinner. The child decides our activities for the weekend. The child decides whatever decisions the family making. That can be incredibly destructive. [00:47:36] 

 

I think sometimes, as people use that phrase, well, if it's not child-centered, well, what is it? And they say, well, I don't know. And then a lot of people say, well, I guess parent-centered. In other words, that parents should be driving the ship. And I certainly agree that parents should be the leaders of the home without question. But ultimately, what we're talking about is building a God-centered family, right? A Christ-centered family. That our hearts and our mission and our purpose and our budget are focused on Him. 

 

One area that Amy and I experienced and spent quite a number of years struggling with... and this would have been from married years 20 to 24 especially. So we're coming up on 30 this summer. But that window around 20 years of marriage, we had read, with both of our backgrounds in ministry, and Amy's a marriage and family therapist, there used to be some teaching out there that year seven was like the difficult marriage year. [00:48:38] And if you could kind of get past year seven, then you're in pretty good shape, unlikely to get divorced, etc. Man, I think that's crazy now. We've had so many friends married into their 20s, divorced. 

 

And Amy and I realized, again, right around that 20-year mark, we went into a colder, more distant season in our marriage. And as we began to recognize it and diagnose it, it was because we were pouring ourselves into parenting and we were pouring ourselves into the ministry. And those are two things we did very well. 

 

In other words, when I say we did very well, we were very committed to working together as parents, and we enjoyed working together in Visionary Family Ministries. I should say it came easier to us to focus there. But we were not investing in just us. We slipped from date nights. We slipped from overnights. [00:49:37] 

 

We slipped from taking walks together and just investing in us. And slowly but surely, we became more and more distant, more and more cold to one another, until we started realizing, hey, we are not feeling very close and connected. And if we don't start making some changes to double down on investing just in our marriage relationship, and Amy talks about it this way, in rebuilding our couple identity. Because we had a very strong family identity, we had a very strong ministry identity, but we were losing our couple identity. And we had to take some urgent action to deal with that. 

 

The first thing it meant... we had started to pray together at the 13-year mark of our marriage. So first 13 years, we didn't pray together at all, which was a disastrous pattern. So we started praying together every night before bed. But then as we realized this disconnection, we said we needed to have a little prayer time every morning.

 

And that's not an hour prayer meeting, one or two minutes of prayer before we start our day. And then really starting to get back to marriage 101. Any premarital class is going to talk to you about the importance of a date night, whether it's monthly, whether it's weekly, just a regular date night. [00:50:50] And we're like, Oh, we don't need a date night. We spend a lot of time together. We parent together. We do our ministry trips together. Well, we really needed a date night. And I think every couple is different with their temperament.

 

But we find that we get a lot out of a night away, like a night at a hotel. So maybe a 24-hour mini retreat somewhere. Obviously, we can't do that every week. We can't do that every month. But if we can get two or three of those in a year, that goes a long way for us.

 

Laura Dugger: Again, I just appreciate the practicality. So thank you for sharing. And if we want to continue gleaning your wisdom after this conversation, where would you direct us to go online, Rob?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, after you finish listening to The Savvy Sauce podcast, come on over to Family Vision, which is our weekly podcast. You can find that on any podcast service. It's usually Amy and me in the studio sharing the things that God's teaching us and the areas that we're growing and encouragements for you just to be growing in your faith and family relationships. [00:51:54] 

 

But you can find Visionary Family Ministries anywhere online, any social media page or our website, visionaryfam.com, and at our shop page on our website, all the books we've been talking about today, Healing Family Relationships, The Heart Of Your Teen, Visionary Parenting, Visionary Marriage. And there's going to be just this continual theme running through all of our resources, which is first just starting with God's word, His love for us. He loves your family. He hasn't brought you this far to abandon you. And then what are some biblical principles, biblical action steps that we can take to grow in faith and strengthen our homes? 

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. Well, I can attest that our family and our church have greatly benefited from multiple resources of yours. So with delight, I will link to all of those in the show notes.

 

And Rob, you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:52:53] And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, the first scripture that comes to mind from our conversation today is Jesus's instruction in Matthew 6:33. So the savvy sauce is seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you as well. So we're talking about parenting. We're talking about marriage.

 

We're talking about family. At the end of the day, it starts with each one of us just seeking first his kingdom, his righteousness, our personal walk with Christ, and then asking his spirit then to overflow into all of our family relationships.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes and amen, brother. It has, again, just been a sincere joy to learn from you. So you've blessed us many times on this podcast.

 

And Rob, I am continually grateful. So thank you for being my guest again today.

 

Dr. Rob Rienow: Thanks, Laura. I love it. Appreciate your ministry.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:53:56] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:55:01] 

 

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. [00:56:04] I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

229 Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes thematic material and may be triggering. It is only intended for mature audiences and those who are not triggered by graphic sexual content.

 

229. Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Ephesians 5:8-14 (NIV) For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light  (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)  and find out what pleases the Lord.  Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.  It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.  But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.  This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

 

Rachel Timothy was only nine years old when she was first approached by a perpetrator who was known to her as a teacher and coach. In her books, she goes into detail of the process of being groomed and how the evil of what was happening to her in the dark remained unseen by everyone around her. She describes how she coped for so many years by blocking out the memories only to have them resurface when she was an adult with a family of her own. Rachel had no idea that when she would pursue justice it would end up putting her right back in the world of trafficking. It wasn’t until her church family saw the signs and believed what she was saying that she was able to start the process of finding freedom. Rachel shows her faith and love of God during the highs and lows of her journey and she prays for each person who reads her story. That their eyes will be opened and their actions will lead us toward ending sex trafficking in our world.

 

Stop Suffering Website

 

Rachel's Books:

Open Blind Eyes

Reflecting Ownership

Reflecting Ownership Workbook

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you share your story with us?

2. Will you close the loop on an update to today?

3. How can we recognize signs of trafficking in our children and in our community?

 

 Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears. 

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

 

Rachel Timothy is my guest today, and she was only nine years old when a perpetrator began grooming her for future evil plans. She's going to share her story with us today in hopes of opening our eyes to the reality of sex trafficking happening in our area and in our world. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Rachel. 

 

Rachel Timothy: Laura, thanks for having me. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, your story is not an easy one to share, but you write about it so that we will open blind eyes. [00:01:24] I would love for you just to begin telling us more about your childhood.

 

Rachel Timothy: My childhood, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it? 

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely.

 

Rachel Timothy: Yeah, so I grew up in a Christian family. My dad was a pastor, and so for my entire life, I've been a preacher's kid. When I was nine years old, we got switched to a different church. We moved to a new town, and it was a very small town. It was really a village. 

 

But it was something that, for whatever reason, at nine years old, I saw it as an adventure. I was excited about it. I could ride my bike all around town and feel like I was big stuff. But I remember just the adventure side of it. 

 

I was a tomboy. I was a people pleaser. I was very much a rule follower. And, I don't know, I was a happy kid. Going into school, so I was going into this new school that was going to be K through 8, and I was going into the fourth grade, and I remember being excited but nervous about making friends. [00:02:29] 

 

So I remember walking to the cafeteria one day. And, again, I'm very much a rule follower, so I still vividly remember the rules of how you walk to the cafeteria. You know, right-hand side of the hallway, arm's length away from the person in front behind you. Like, no talking. But a teacher from across the hallway called out my name. I remember wondering if I was in trouble. You know, did I do something wrong? Did I break a rule?

 

I knew who the guy was. He was not my fourth-grade teacher. There were two fourth-grade classes in this K through 8 school. He was the other fourth-grade teacher. And I also knew that he was the girls' basketball coach for the fifth through eighth-grade girls' team at this school. 

 

So I knew who he was. I knew he was a Christian. I knew he was an elder of a church. He seemed to be trusted and loved by everybody.

 

So he calls my name as I'm walking to the cafeteria, and I walk over to him, and I immediately realize he wasn't upset at anything I'd done. [00:03:32] He had a big smile on his face. He went on to say, "I'm so glad that your family moved here." He already knew so much about me. He knew where my dad was working, where we lived. He knew my brothers were athletes.

 

He started talking to me about basketball, which basketball was my love. He already knew that. He started talking to me about my cousin, who's a good basketball player and just started to take ownership of my heart in that moment.

 

As a kid, when you have a teacher show interest in you, it makes you feel special. And I remember being completely clueless as to this being a red flag, because if it would have stopped at that point, it was harmless. But really I went back home, I told my parents, "You'll never guess. You know, the girls' basketball coach is so excited that I'm here. He can't wait for me to play on his team." It made me feel like I had a place in this new town. 

 

In that moment, now looking back, I see that was all grooming. [00:04:32] And it really began before he ever even had that first conversation with me. The homework that he did on me prior to that first conversation of knowing so much about me, knowing my heart, he obviously had watched me enough to know my personality, to know that I was a people pleaser and I was an easier target. That was really the beginning of the grooming process in my eyes. 

 

From there, he began to pull me out of class pretty frequently. He would send another student over to my classroom with a note asking if I could come sit with him. My teachers almost always said yes, unless I was taking a test or something. Like, they allowed me to go over there.

 

And I remember his classroom, he always had the lights off. He always had the blinds shut, at least in my eyes. That's how I remember it. That's how most of the students remember his classroom. [00:05:29] 

 

But I would go and I would sit behind his desk and we would talk about basketball. And he would just tell me how great he thinks I am. Like when I make it to the WNBA, you know, don't forget little old him. He just really made me feel important. Whether he had complimented me or not, the fact that a kid gets out of school, that's a special treatment that a kid wants to continue.

 

But I'd sit behind his desk. A lot of times he began to talk about my body. Like it switched from just basketball to then my body and muscles and getting stronger and all of it related to basketball and all of it seemed to be relevant since he's my basketball coach or will be. So he would feel my muscles if they were getting stronger and my back muscles and my thigh muscles. 

 

I've always said I remember the first time that he touched me inappropriately. He had his hand on my back and it went up around and touched my chest. [00:06:29] I remember I jumped and tears immediately filled my eyes because I knew it was wrong. Like it felt wrong. I was not developed in any way, shape or form. You know, I was 9 years old, but it felt wrong. And his reaction to me was, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, you know, that was an accident. Why are you acting like a baby?" And I thought, "Oh my goodness, of course, it was an accident. Why am I acting like a baby?"

 

But as I go back now and I think about that time, and I've always said that was the first time he touched me inappropriately. And I want to like take that back because, no, the first time he ever touched me was the first time he touched me inappropriately because no 35-year-old man should be putting his hands on a nine-year-old girl. I think that's important for anybody to know.

 

After that happened, he began to start to talk about the secrets, that we need to be a secret. And it wasn't a threat towards me. In fact, because he had done such a good job grooming my heart, taking ownership of my heart in many ways, making it to where I felt like he loved me and that I needed to protect him, his secrets were if you tell anybody about us or tell anybody about that, he would lose his job, he would lose his wife, and I didn't want to hurt him. [00:07:46] 

 

Eventually, he had a kid in this process, and he would say, "Or I would lose my kid." And I didn't want any of those bad things to happen to him, and I didn't want anything in our relationship to change. 

 

So it wasn't much longer after that I remember he brought in one of his old yearbooks, and it was from when he would have been about my age, and he was showing me pictures of him. I remember him asking if I thought he was cute and asking if I would have been his girlfriend if we were the same age. And I said yes, and it seemed as if in that moment, like we did almost become girlfriend-boyfriend. 

 

If you were to talk to my classmates now, they would say, Yeah, we knew you guys were boyfriend-girlfriend. It was almost out in the open, in some ways, our relationship. What's hard to stomach a little bit is because it was out in the open, you think as a kid, this must be okay. [00:08:45] 

 

Teachers knew I was going there. Teachers knew I was behind his desk, that he was paying all this attention to me. It must be safe then. He must be safe. Otherwise, they surely wouldn't let a kid do that. 

 

What I didn't know was there were teachers who saw it and reported it. And I had a teacher walk in when I was nine, and I was apparently... I don't remember her walking in, but she says she walked in, the lights were all off. I was sitting on his lap behind his desk. He had his arms around me and she went right away and told the superintendent. And he told her, "You don't need to worry about him. He's safe." 

 

And it seemed like if she were to push it, she was not tenure. She didn't have a lot of years behind her yet. And so she didn't feel like it was something she could push. Granted, she has a lot of guilt towards that now that she knows the extent of what it all went to, but she didn't know that at the time. [00:09:44] 

 

So he had showed me his yearbook. And I remember him saying, "Why don't you take this home?" I lived like two houses down from him. And he said, "Let's use this as a way for you to come over and see my house." So he kind of gave me the explanation that I could give my mom. And I asked, "Hey, can I return this book to my teacher?" And she said yes. So that Saturday I went over to his house to return that yearbook. 

 

I remember the first time being in his house, all the lights were off. The blinds were shut. It was just that he doesn't like light, which is ironic. But he gave me a tour of the house. He was very nice, very cordial and everything, like got me a snack. He took me over to this little side part of his house where it was his music room, showed me his soundproof room. In a way, I felt like he was flirting. 

 

Nothing happened when I was there that first time. Then we started to make more plans for me to go over to his house. [00:10:44] At this point, as I had said earlier, I would ride my bike all around town. That was pretty common back then. I mean, 30 years ago, like I would ride my bike for an hour, go back home, check-in, go ride my bike for a couple hours. 

 

Or I would go over to a friend's house. And there'd be times when I would leave there early and walk over to his house. But it was all within like a few houses of each other. 

 

The next time that I went to his house, he started talking about this great idea he had about we could make some extra money and I'd be able to get my parents a neat Christmas gift and he was going to help me do that. So he pulled out an envelope and it had all these pictures of kids, and he's like, "These kids, they make money off of these pictures and you're more beautiful than all these kids. It would be fun." He made it seem like a great idea. He made it seem like no big deal as well. 

 

So I remember we walked back into his bedroom. He had three disposable cameras sitting on his dresser and he just began to take pictures of me and he was goofy and fun and I enjoyed it. [00:11:46] He made those silly photographer poses as he was doing it. And it seemed like no big deal.

 

Then we had a conversation about it at school however many days later and he said that he had gotten the pictures back and that they were good but that they could be better. I mean, I had no idea what that meant.

 

But the next time that I went to his house, he pulled out another envelope of pictures but this time the pictures were of kids and they didn't have any clothes on. And I distinctly remember the look in the eyes were just totally different between the first group of kids that I saw. It was not kids that I knew. I have no idea where he got these pictures. 

 

I think he saw the reaction I had, the shock and he's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this is the beautiful way that God made them. There's nothing wrong with this." In fact, we're showing the beautiful way that God made you. And I was a preacher's kid and so anytime you throw God in the mix, that meant it was the right thing.

 

So when we went back in his bedroom again, he had disposable cameras, he put a sheet around me to start and then he proceeded to take pictures of me. [00:12:52] And he was not fun. It was not this joyful, like silly experience this time. It was very serious and it was scary in a way. 

 

I remember I was the one who had remorse over it. Like I was the one that knew this was wrong. And I actually had a conversation with him. I was like, "I don't think we should be doing this." And he said, "But it was your idea." And then I started thinking back, "Maybe it was. Maybe I did want to do that."

 

With being a preacher's kid again, the shame aspect of this stuff was so heavy. And he added to it by saying, "Your family either they're not going to believe you or they're going to be so angry at you." And I believed him. So not only was the threat with, you know, not wanting to hurt him, now it was dealing with the shame that I had. And that kept me quiet.

 

I believe it was the next time that I was at his house, I was really shocked to see that he was not the only one there. [00:13:57] I was taken back into his bedroom and his brother was actually standing in the corner. He had a tripod set up with a camera, a video camera on it. Actually, his brother's wife was there as well. Immediately, it was just not the same atmosphere whatsoever as the fun person that I had originally got to know.

 

My coach went on to explain and show me what making love was. And it was all videotaped. And I remember him telling me that the Bible says that the two become one and so that I literally belonged to him. The woman that was there cleaned me up. She told me, you know, if there's blood in your underwear, you need to make sure you throw it away before your mom sees it.

 

There was just immediate darkness that came over my life. One of the… I call it a gift from God, and in many ways it is. And I think God designed our brains to shut off when things got too awful, especially as a kid when you couldn't handle it. [00:15:05] So I would disassociate. And literally, I would go to a place in my mind... It's not like I went to this field of flowers like all is well. I just don't have memory of it. It just was blacked out.

 

I remember hurting, I remember feeling a darkness but not having a reason to understand why. So those things that had just happened, I didn't have in the forefront of my mind. And so as time went on and I would go to his house and other men would show up, I mean, my understanding is they paid money to be able to have sex with me. It then proceeded to my fifth and sixth-grade year. Now I am on his basketball team and I'm still very much protective of him. 

 

He played these mind games with me. I feel like in the beginning he took ownership of my heart. But through the process, he began to take ownership of my mind with these mind games. And he would be all about me some days and just love me to pieces. [00:16:04] And then some days act like I didn't even exist, would look through me, wouldn't talk to me, would ignore me. 

 

I spent majority of my time at school wondering, how can I make him happy? Like I wasn't a normal kid anymore. I wasn't thinking about kid-like things. I was, how do I keep him happy? That was an ownership that I feel like he took hold of all my thoughts.

 

Then I feel like whenever he started to make me question, was it my idea, was this me wanting to do this? And then me like so badly wanting to make him happy that I would almost agreeingly do things. It was like an ownership of my soul. It was no longer me making those choices. It was him through me.

 

And so I feel like those pieces of ownership led to where then he had ownership of my body. And there was really nothing left in me to fight it. There was nothing that I could have said to anybody, for one, that would have made sense because I didn't remember the whole grasp of it. [00:17:06] 

 

But two, he had all of this hold on me. If somebody would have sat down with me and said, Is anybody hurting you? I would have said no.

 

But if somebody would have said, and this is what I tell people all the time when it comes to kids who you're wondering, is there something going on? Ask them, "Who makes you feel special? Who gives you special attention? Who do you spend time with the most?" 

 

Because if somebody would have asked me that, I would have had so much fun telling you about my coach. You wouldn't believe how much he cares about me and that he thinks I'm going to be the greatest WNBA player ever. That would have given you an indication that there is a weird dynamic between a grown man and a little girl that shouldn't be there.

 

Laura Dugger: And then even to follow up, you did try to escape one time because it was such a slow, long, strategic on his part process. 

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: You said that there were certain times that you had these red flags, but he would mess with your mind. [00:18:11] But also when you tried to get away, that did not work either as he was progressing this into bringing others in. 

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Is that right?

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes. So there was a point where he had brought in another... it was actually another teacher from my school. It was really confusing to me because he was the next person that came in and I was just taught that we made love and I belong to him. So now there's a new man showing up and I was supposed to "make love", quote-unquote, to this man. And I didn't want to. Like I wanted nothing to do with this horrible, ugly man. And I did try to run and I got stopped at the door and I was actually told either you will make love to this man or you will make love to a knife. And it was, I mean, obviously what choice I made. And it wasn't a choice. That's not a choice. But things got really, really dark, too dark for a kid to be able to comprehend. 

 

So then here I am fifth grade and I was on his basketball team and I was a pretty doggone good basketball player. [00:19:16] So one day at the beginning of school, which it was not uncommon, he would pull me out of this entire gymnasium full of kids, he would pull me out and talk with me down on the gym floor. And he was doing this again. 

 

At this point he had said, you know, you get to practice up with the high school tonight. Like instead of practicing with us, you're going to get to practice with the high school. I'm going to have a car pick you up and take you over there. There was no time for me to go home and say, "Hey, guess what, Mom and Dad, this is what I get to do." Like I was told in the morning, this is what's going to happen in the afternoon.

 

And so practice came and I was so excited. I remember going to practice and then him showing me, "Go out that door, there's a car waiting for you." And I went out there and it was my coach's car, but it was his brother standing next to it. And I knew at that point I was not going to practice. 

 

My coach, he was the one who really was like the grooming and the pulling on my heartstrings and all that. His brother was mean and I was terrified of him. [00:20:17] He was big and ugly and just super, super mean. 

 

So what he said I did out of fear. When he said, get on the floor of the backseat of the car and don't look at where we're going, I did it. We probably drove maybe five minutes, but with it being such a small town, we were in the country by the time we got to our destination. 

 

I was taken out of the car and we were at this country house. It looked like an absolutely normal little white country house. This ended up being a place where I was taken often, often enough. I couldn't even tell you the exact number of times just because it all kind of begins to flow together. But I would be taken there and I would be put in a room and men would pay money and I would see the money exchanged.

 

And then they would come into the room where I was and have a certain amount of time with me. I would then be taken back to the school, I would go into the bathroom and I would clean myself up and I would go right back to this acting like everything was fine. [00:21:24] 

 

And really like to the point where I believed everything was fine. I could disassociate, shut down when the awful evil things were happening, and come back to the school and clean myself up and just be a different person. I mean, I smiled a lot in the beginning. I never struggled with my grades, really. I had friends like those type of signs were there in the beginning because I believe of the dissociation. 

 

Now, this went on through my fifth and sixth-grade year for whatever reason. I don't know if it's because I was developing, I was no longer a kid and that was more of the desire. But by my sixth-grade year, when that was over, I don't believe I went back to the White House, that little White House after that.

 

But my sixth-grade year is when a lot of the signs started to show up behaviorally, emotionally. I hurt so bad and I couldn't tell you why. I would have flashes of different men standing over me. And that didn't make sense to me. [00:22:27] I saw images of a place that I don't remember going to, but it was all just little bits and pieces. And my heart hurt so bad. My heart and my gut is where I carried most of my pain. 

 

I began to cut. I began to have suicidal thoughts. And I did share that with some people. I tried to cut my wrist at school one day and I remember being taken to the principal's office and getting the nurse and all of that and them calling my parents in. My mom, I think, was the only one that was there. And I remember being told I was seeking attention. I was attention-seeking. And I got in trouble for it. So nothing was dealt with. I was just this preacher's kid that wanted attention. And I heard that time and time again. 

 

So my 7th grade year then... behaviors were still going on as far as I was not okay. And then my 7th grade year, I was able to put enough together in my mind to know I had been raped at some point. [00:23:32] And I had an image of a man from the neighborhood, from the area and I was putting enough together where I was able to say, not in like great detail, but I'm pretty sure I was raped by this man.

 

And so I told friends. That was a safe place for me. I told some friends and they told teachers. They did a great job. They did what kids should do when somebody confides in you. They told the teacher. The teacher told the principal. The principal called my parents. I remember then being taken home. My mom sat me down on her bed and I remember her saying, "This is what was told to me." And I said, "Yes." And she said, "You're lying." And I said, "No, Mom, I'm not." And she said, "Yes, you are. You're lying." And I said, "Mom, I'm not." And she said, "Yes, you are. You're lying." And I said, "Okay, I'm lying."

 

And she went on and told my dad. She made it all up. Again, I was punished for attention-seeking. And then they proceeded to have me go to all of these people that had heard about this and apologized, including the man who had raped me. [00:24:42] And I remember being taken in his house and my dad telling him, "This is what my daughter said about you. She lied about you. I'm so sorry. She's here to apologize to you." And the man crying because he just couldn't believe that I would say something like that about him. It killed another piece of my soul. Like, that was trauma on top of trauma. 

 

Even if a kid does not necessarily make sense in what they're saying, listen to them, believe them. Something is going on. Because, no, like, I couldn't give you A to Z what was going on. But there was obviously something. And ignoring it made it to where the trauma went on into my adult years. 

 

Like, had it been dealt with in that moment, had it been addressed in counseling, and believed and action taken, I believe that my adult years would not be like it was. But because it was all pushed under the rug, it was my fault, it shifted a lot in who I was and who I saw myself as. [00:25:48] 

 

So you already have the words from your abuser saying, you know, this is what God made you for and then you have, your Christian family and your Christian circle either seemingly seeing it but not doing anything or hearing about it and saying it's your fault. So all of that just compounded this feeling of maybe this is who God made me as. Maybe this is my lot in life.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

 

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched. [00:26:53] 

 

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated from Midwest Food Bank. 

 

To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

 

Rachel Timothy: So this whole process, this whole time from fourth grade through eighth grade, my coach is still taking me out of class, I'm still sitting behind his desk, still having these intimate conversations. He's very possessive of me as far as doesn't want me to go out with boys my age. [00:28:02] 

 

But by my eighth-grade year, he actually asked if I could go to a basketball game with him. So there was a high school game that was taking place probably 40 minutes away. And to us, it was a date. And my parents agreed to it. So he picked me up, just like a boy would pick up a girl for a date. He picked me up, we got in the car, and we went to this high school basketball game to just watch it.

 

We only stayed till halftime, and we listened to it on the radio on the way home, so I knew what to tell my parents as far as how the game went. But he took a different way home, and he ended up brutally raping me on the side of the road in his car on the way home. It was one of the most evil experiences I had been a part of at that point. It really was awful. Then when it was done, he was this happy guy again. Like, it was a very odd experience for me. 

 

When I graduated, there was no more communication from him. [00:29:02] Occasionally I would see him here or there, and he would still kind of flirt with me, but I was no longer living in that little area. We had moved further, probably five miles outside of town. So I went to a different school so that the access to me wasn't there. But not only that, I was not a kid anymore, and I think he was attracted to little kids. I know he was. 

 

So I went into high school. I dove into basketball. That became my coping skill, which seems like a very healthy coping skill, except for the fact that I would go to any length to be the best basketball player I could be, even if it meant destroying my body. And my body was not in great shape anyway, due to everything that I had been through, but I would not stop. 

 

So I had knee surgery after knee surgery while I was in high school. Still got that D1 scholarship that I needed to have in order to be happy in my mind, like, in order to be okay. I got it. [00:30:01] But I was never able to play a single game because I had destroyed my body so much in the process of trying to find happiness, despite the pain that was inside. 

 

Eventually, by my sophomore year of college, I was told I no longer can play basketball, my career was over. And so that was devastating. Now what? How do I fill this odd void, this pain in my gut? So kind of my next coping skill was, okay, I'm going to set up the perfect life. I'm going to find the perfect husband and have 2.5 kids and eventually be a stay-at-home mom. And I'm just going to make my world safe and okay.

 

So in 2009, I got married. 2011, I had my first son. 2013, I had a little girl. So 2014 rolls around. At this point, I had a 2-and-a-half-year-old and a 6-month-old. It was January of 2014. I remember scrolling through Facebook, and I came across a Facebook post of a friend of mine. [00:31:03] She was sharing a painting that her little girl had done. The little girl was probably fifth or sixth grade, went to the same school that I had gone to.

 

The mom was just talking about how great the painting was, but then in the comments said, "Thank you to my coach for spending time with her daughter after school to work on this painting. And in that moment, my whole world fell apart. All of those moments where I had disassociated and I had seemingly forgot or just wouldn't acknowledge in my mind came to the forefront of my mind, like image after image and memory after memory.

 

And I ran to the bathroom, and I puked, and I puked, and I puked. It was things I knew, like it was almost the puzzle pieces that I knew were there, but I had never really acknowledged. If you've ever read the book, The Body Keeps the Score, it talks a lot about how your body does not forget the trauma. Your mind might, but your body always remembers. [00:32:02] And it was like that connection was made in that moment between my mind and my body. So it made sense, but at the same time, now what?

 

Like my husband left that morning to go to work having no idea the depth of trauma that I had had as a kid. It was to the point where I had asked my coach to sing at my wedding. Like that was where my mind was. I still thought he was, quote-unquote, "a good guy", made some mistakes, maybe we had an inappropriate relationship, but I didn't remember the depth of the darkness. I had always just remembered the good things that I could about him. 

 

So now here I am remembering all of this, having to share this with my husband. I began cutting again. I began an eating disorder that lasted a long, long time. We started to get me into counseling. And the number one thing that I wanted to accomplish was to make sure that little girl was okay, because I knew what she was going through. [00:33:00] 

 

We talked about meeting with the police. I had actually met with the police. I was going to file a report. But what we ended up doing because of fear was we filed an anonymous tip through DCFS. They went into the school. My understanding is that they went to him and they interviewed him, my coach, and then they went to this little girl. 

 

Now me and this little girl are close now. She's actually the one who designed the cover of my book, Open Blind Eyes. She's a special, special girl. But I had asked her about it, like, what was that experience like? And she said, "They basically came in and said, has anybody ever hurt you?" And she said, "No." And that was it. And I knew, like, that's not enough. That's not going to get you any answers. Whether she had disassociated, didn't fully know, was trying to protect him, whatever, that's not enough to know if something was going on. [00:33:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: And like you had said, had you been that little girl in that moment, you would have responded in the same way, even though he was absolutely hurting you in your 9- and 10-year-old mind. It was something different.

 

Rachel Timothy: Exactly. The hard part with youth is that you can't just simply ask a blunt question and expect a blunt response back. Their mind is not going to be able to do that, especially if grooming has taken place. 

 

So they called the case unfounded. Honestly, I didn't know that there was anything else that I could do at that point. Then I found out that the case was not anonymous. It was supposed to be anonymous. However, it was not. I actually found out probably just three or four years ago that my name was actually put on it.

 

But about a month after I had made that anonymous tip, I was outside in my yard. At this point, I had an almost 3-year-old and 11-month-old. [00:35:03] My coach walked into my yard. My little girl was sitting on the ground, and I froze when I saw him. He picked up my little girl and walked straight into my house. 

 

Me and my son followed, and thank God he put my little girl down. But then he turned around and walked towards me and kind of backed me up against the wall and proceeded to just threaten me to tell me, if you ever talk about this again, I know people who will hurt your family. And I know he did. I remember those people now. Like I know he's not lying with this. 

 

And I don't know how to explain it, but I was not 28 years old standing there before him. I was that 9-year-old little girl. And I had no power against this man. Emotionally, I was 9 years old, and I have no doubt he saw that. Because over the course of the next, like the 2 weeks after that and another 2 weeks after that, I was hurt. Like he would come and beat the crap out of me, just reminding me again, you are not to talk about this. [00:36:05] 

 

Then another 2 weeks after that, approximately, I was assaulted by both him and his brother. I had not told my husband. Like I went right back to the way that I was as a kid, 2 separate worlds. I'm just not even going to go there. 

 

Then when that assault happened, only by the grace of God did I have the strength to get on my phone and I simply texted my counselor and said, "I was just raped." And I remember she tried calling me, and I couldn't get words out of my throat. And I hung up on her. And she called again, and I hung up. And then she texted and said, "Get your kids and come to my counseling office." And so I did. 

 

We ended up telling my husband. They were like, "You have to go to the hospital, and you have to file a report." I didn't want to do either one. I was terrified. I was traumatized. I was a hot mess. So at that point, it really wasn't my choice. [00:37:04] 

 

So we went to the hospital, and I did have a rape kit done and I was interviewed by a police officer. I told them everything except for the names of the men who had hurt me because I was scared. I remember my husband saying, "Either you have to tell them the names, or we're going to have to move." And I said, "Then I guess we have to move." 

 

We real quickly, within two weeks, uprooted and went about an hour and a half away. My husband got a real quick new job. We just were hoping to start life over. I remember I had so much anger towards myself because to me, this was all my doing. I didn't fight back. I didn't tell anybody the right way. I didn't do any of this the right way. So I felt like it was my fault. 

 

About nine months after this, my husband got a new job. And so we ended up taking this new job. [00:38:06] It was going to have better insurance, better hours. And it would be about 30 to 40 minutes from where my coach lived. And we had hoped that would be enough distance. 

 

There was still a lot of trauma in me, but also in my husband. We were not communicating very well at this point. He was angry. We were both very distant. We just had a lot of other hard stuff tied to all of this going on. So we got this new job. We moved to this new town. We're renting a house. 

 

About three or four months into living at this new place, my coach shows up again. And this time, he's in tears. And I'm still 9 years old when I'm talking to him. This moment of being in my kitchen, having this conversation with my coach, I regret more than anything. Like I wish that I could have had a different response. But as he went on to say, you know, I'm stuck in this ring. I'm stuck with this awful group of people, and I can't get out. And I don't want to be here. Like this is not who I am. [00:39:09] All of those old feelings began to come back.

 

And when he said, "I need your help. And I'm going to have somebody come tonight. And when a truck shows up and revs his engines, you know, if you would go out there and just this one time, just help me." And I said, okay. And I did. 

 

That night, in the middle of the night, I heard a revving of engines outside my house and I left my house, and I got in the truck with this man I didn't know. And I was taken to a hotel probably a mile and a half from my house and was raped for about three hours. And driven back to my house, came back inside, and literally just went right back to my old habits. I went to the bathroom, I took a shower, I cleaned myself up, and I got in bed with my husband, and I acted like everything was fine. 

 

But because I did it that one time, there was no stopping it at that point. I was threatened, you know, we're going to tell everybody what you did. We're going to hurt your kids. We're going to hurt your family. So my worlds just became separated again, and I began to leave in the middle of the night. [00:40:16] 

 

Anytime I heard a revving of engines, I would go out. I would get in a vehicle with somebody I didn't know. I'd be taken to places, whether it was a camper out in the country or in a house that people didn't know that it was actually a brothel or a hotel or just a group of guys in a car. I was taken to these places and sold repeatedly and then brought back home and acted like everything was fine. 

 

My husband, I mean, he knew something was wrong. I began to lose a massive amount of weight. I would wear long sleeves and long pants even in the summer because I was hiding cuts and bruises and marks from this awful abuse. He assumed it was because of the assault that had happened, you know, the year prior. He knew I was struggling from that.

 

Then in the middle of the night, he would wake up and I wouldn't be in bed with him. He assumed I was in bed with one of the kids. You know, like you don't assume, oh, my wife's out being trafficked, you know. You don't think those thoughts. It was poor communication between two very traumatized people. [00:41:24] 

 

It ended up going on for a year. Like it was awful. And when you think of this type of stuff, you know, like I had one lady one time say, Do you just really love sex? Like, no, that's not what this is. This is not like what you would picture between a husband and a wife. It is beyond evil and beyond what your mind can think. It's not something anybody would want.

 

There were videos made. This is why I say anybody who thinks that pornography is a harmless sin, it is not. Those women don't want to be there. Statistically, they say 90% of the women on a porn site, video, whatever, are being trafficked. You don't see what's happening before the video or after the video. They maybe appear like they want to be there.

 

But whether it's force, fraud, or coercion, them being on that video, it's not their choice. No woman wants to do that. So people make the assumption, even men that would come and pay for me made the assumption, I wanted this. [00:42:28] 

 

And that's not the case. You don't see all of the trauma that took place prior to you showing up or prior to you watching this video. So really, you watching pornography, you are paying a trafficker.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that is so important to pause there and reiterate. There is such a lie that this is a secret thing. This is harming no one. This is just me. And that is just not truth.

 

Rachel Timothy: It's not truth. I mean, you can go into all the reasons just within your own marriage. You are rewiring your brain in a way that is not healthy, not of God, is not going to benefit your wife, your kids. I mean, all of it is evil. But when you recognize that you're actually watching a victim of sex trafficking, it does take a little bit different turn for some men. So I do want to point that out.

 

I've had times when I've gone and I've spoken and I've had men come to me and say, "I want to apologize because I was one of those men that watched porn." [00:43:33] I had no idea. There's no judgment there. Like I'm not angry at them. I just want change. It needs to be taken care of.

 

We need to be pouring into our men, keeping our men accountable, asking our husbands, our sons about, are you watching porn? The average age of a kid that sees pornography is eight years old. And that changes a mind.

 

And the amount of trauma survivors that we work with in our program, whose older brother sexually abused them because they had watched porn, you know, a little sister's easy access. It causes things that you would never think possible.

 

Laura Dugger: Also for women and for girls as well, their statistics to support pornography usage and viewing is going up so much, especially since COVID, it was compounded, but both men and women.

 

Rachel Timothy: Yeah. And it's an addiction and it is like a drug to your brain. So once you start, it's like you need more and a little bit more and a little bit more. [00:44:38] Denise, the co-founder of our program, she talks a lot about addiction and she does a great job of explaining when you have an addiction, it's almost like a tunnel. Like that's the only thing that makes you happy at that point. You lose joy in everything else except for that addiction. So you need more and more of that to get that dopamine feeling.

 

Whereas those of us that don't have an addiction, we find joy in the sunrise, in our children. But when you have an addiction, it's just not there anymore.

 

Laura Dugger: It even reminds me of something that you wrote in your book, and I don't have it in front of me right now to quote verbatim, but just that we cannot make sense of evil.

 

Rachel Timothy: Yeah. I say that a lot. Because there's people that hear my story and they cannot comprehend it or they don't want to believe that our world is this dark and ugly. And I get it. Like I don't either. I have kids. I don't want them to go through this stuff by any means.

 

If I could put them in a bubble, I would. But I also know that God has a purpose for their life. [00:45:42] And if I can equip them and empower them and listen to them when they have hurts that they need to tell me and say, "You know, I believe you. I want to hear about this. It changes everything for them and it equips them to then do better in the world." 

 

We are raising traumatized kids, whether it's from what they're seeing on their phones, what's going on at school with bullying. 

 

I heard a statistic recently and I am sharing it every chance I get because it's that important. In our country, we are only recognizing 1% of trafficking victims. So when you see... it's like 700,000, 800,000 is what they predict as possibly the amount of victims in our country. That's 1%. And it's literally in every school. It's probably in every classroom. These kids are being videotaped. Their parents are taking them on the weekends to get a little extra cash, whether they need drug money. I see it all the time. [00:46:45] 

 

But we think of trafficking as you have to be taken out of the country. You have to be taken across borders. You have to be kidnapped. And it's not that way. These kids are still going to school. They're still going to church. They're still leading a quote-unquote, "normal life" and not able to tell anybody the hell that they're going through because they don't even understand it completely.

 

Laura Dugger: From your experience then, are there any indications that may be red flags to us as adults with businesses? Is there any signal or anything that can give us indication that there's more going on here?

 

Rachel Timothy: So when it goes to the spas, if you have to ring a doorbell to get in, that is not a normal spa. If you were to call and they say, "Oh, we don't serve women," that's a brothel. And we don't realize it, but we have brothels everywhere. 

 

These foreign women who are taken from their country, their family is promised that they're going to get all this money from this beautiful job that they're going to have in America. And they take these foreign women who do not speak our language purposefully, and they house them in these little spas. [00:47:58] And they have man after man come in. 

 

It's really mind-boggling that our system in many ways allows it because it's obvious it's a brothel. But for whatever reason, our police system, our court system, whatever, is not stopping it.

 

Not too far from here, there's a safe house and they have office buildings in this little strip mall. So they have their Christian ministry safe house for trafficking survivors. And literally right next door is a brothel. And they know when a man's walking in, they know that he is about to rape one of these women. And they know these men have to shower before they are with a woman. And they will hear the shower turn on as they're sitting there trying to help one of their trafficking survivors.

 

It is awful. And it doesn't matter who you contact, what level of state, police, whatever, it doesn't matter. It continues to happen. [00:48:58] And if they are busted, these women are put in jail for prostitution and the pimps are set free. And then the pimps pay for them to get out and they go right back to it.

 

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. 

 

And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.

 

The entire system is so corrupt. And yet, I do want to eventually ask you some things that each of us can do. But let's first go back to close a few of the loops. At this point of your story, your husband believes you. You have a counselor. How did things progress to you getting out? [00:49:56] And are you considered that you've gotten out? 

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: What does that look like?

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes. After I had been in it for like a year as an adult, we ended up moving to a different town where there was a Christian school and a Christian church that we decided that's where God wanted us to be. And so this was the first time I was no longer going to my dad's church, which was new for me. But there was an elder's wife of this church that I could just tell there was something about her that was safe. I had tried with many people to reach out. And my story was too much. The danger of it was too much. The understanding of it was too much. And I get it. Like, I understand. But in a way, like, what do I do? You know?

 

So I had kind of given up hope on reaching out to people. I was barely making it, but I was still putting on this facade as best that I could that everything was okay. [00:50:56] I saw her one time at one of our little Christmas events at church and she asked if she could hold my fourth baby at that point. And there was just something different.

 

So I started to text her some and would ask for prayer. Just almost like testing her. Like, what can she handle? So I would give her little bits and pieces of things. Eventually, I texted her and I said, "What would you have done if your daughter had come to you and said that she had been abused?" And I remember her response was nothing like my mom's response. 

 

She picked up on the fact at that point that I had probably been sexually abused as a kid. So she literally dropped everything. She was supposed to teach at Awana that night at church and she got a substitute. And she came and she picked me up and we went for a drive.

 

I told her as best I could some of the pieces of my childhood, still keeping a secret what was continually going on at that point in my life. [00:51:54] But I remember her saying to me, you know, when men do this stuff to kids, it's often for power. And I said, or money. And her jaw dropped open and she had no idea. Like she knew trafficking existed in Cambodia, or Haiti, or wherever. She did not know it was in her backyard.

 

I remember her saying to me, "You've told the right person. This is not going to continue." And she meant it. As time went on and she began to pour into me, she would show up at my house for maybe five minutes just to give me a hug. And I was a shell of a person at that point. I couldn't cry. I mean, I was barely functioning. And here I was needing to take care of four kids. So she would show up and she would just hug me.

 

And I remember holding on to her and not wanting her to leave because I didn't know at what point would another truck come? At what point would I be hurt again? And so I would hold on to her for dear life, like a 9-year-old would hold on to a mom. [00:52:55] 

 

At one point she recognized bruises and cuts and different things and she realized this is still going on. And so she showed up at my house with her husband one night and I was like, "Oh, why are you guys here? And she said, "Your husband needs to know." I had so much PTSD that all I knew at that point was my life was over. He was going to leave. He was going to take the kids. Everything was going to be over. My trauma response has always been to just run. I don't know where I'm going. I don't know why. I just have to get out of this space. 

 

So I grabbed my keys and I began to run. And my husband grabbed me and literally to where my feet could not hit the floor, held on to me with his arms wrapped around me as she told him everything that she knew and what was going on. And mind you, so she's telling my husband, your wife's leaving in the middle of the night to be sold for sex. AI honestly thought this was it. And he whispered in my ear, "I'm not going anywhere. I'm here. It's okay." [00:54:03] And we proceeded to call the police.

 

And I was supposed to tell them like everything that I could, especially from that most recent attack where I had been hurt. I literally thought when I signed the papers for that police report, I'm the one going to jail. I really wholeheartedly believed that, that this is it. This is what God... this is my punishment. To the point where I was on my hands and knees trying to crawl and escape out of this house. Like I had so much PTSD.

 

And this led to us, granny. So I called this lady, this elder's wife, granny, because, well, for one, I don't use names in my book and everybody calls her granny. So she just became kind of... she became granny. Anyway. So she would begin to take me to police stations and I would share my story with them. There was a case then open, a criminal case open. They did a raid on my coach's house, a raid on his brother's house. I was then having meetings with FBI, like because of the child porn and the money exchange, like it went really high up. [00:55:13] 

 

One of the FBI agents was incredible. She was a woman. She was like what you would see on TV. She had red hair. She like dressed in a suit and she was really fit and just... she was ready to catch these guys. And she was able to pull bank accounts and be able to put different pieces together and be able to see where money was being exchanged. She was putting all of the pieces together. 

 

Then she had told me at one point... you know, she couldn't come right out and say it, but she's like, If we were going into your coach's house looking for candy, we found candy. And she's like, "It's just a matter of time. We have to go through every device that he has to know the extent of everything. But just know that it's just a matter of time before this will be an open and shut-case. And I felt so grateful like this is going to be it.

 

It took obviously a lot longer than it should have for them to go through all of these devices. And in the meantime, I still had trucks showing up. [00:56:13] I mean, this ring of men was much bigger than just my coach. I don't I still don't believe I know the depth of it, but still, I was not safe. So we ended up having me go to... we chose an eating disorder facility. Yes, I had an eating disorder, but it was serving more as a safe house purpose.

 

I didn't need to go somewhere for two years and learn how to use food stamps. Like that was not my situation. Women who are taken off the street who have no ability to function in everyday life, they need that. That's not where I was. And so we went to this eating disorder facility, I was separated from my kids for eight weeks. It was awful. I missed my youngest daughter's first birthday. But they began to work with me on healing. When you feel safe, it's amazing the amount of healing that you can have. 

 

So things were getting better. But while I was there, I got word that they allowed my coach back into teaching and coaching and back into being an elder of a church. [00:57:13] And I call up the FBI and I'm like, "You said you guys found child porn." Like that was the indication I was told. And she wasn't the only one who told me. I had three or four other officers say it's just a matter of time. And she said, "Yeah, and it was on a thumb drive and it's gone. The forensic guy has no idea what happened. He says this never happened before. It's gone."

 

So without that evidence, he's free to go back into the school. And I was devastated. And from that moment on, things just were up and down as far as safety went. Different people showing up at my house and the trauma that was happening that my kids would even see with being followed and all of that. 

 

So 2020 rolled around at a time when we thought I would be the safest because the whole world has shut down. Evil does not shut down in the pandemic. Things escalated to a whole new level. This part's not even in my book. Like this is recent. [00:58:15] 

 

But we knew we needed to leave. We no longer could stay where we were. Which killed me because I would be leaving Granny. And she was the first person to believe me. She was my safe place. And I didn't think I could do it. I was scared out of my mind to leave because in my mind, the ring is big enough. They will find me wherever I am. But then I won't have Granny.

 

So my husband got transferred. Again, a new job. Uprooted the kids. Again, they're traumatized just from their mom being traumatized. We ended up in Bloomington, Illinois. It was great that we ended up there. There's a lot of great people that had helped us. And I was super grateful but things were not great in the beginning. 

 

So here we are running away from a trafficking ring to get safe. The person who had opened up their house to us to live in because we couldn't buy a house until we sold our house. So we move in with this family that we don't know. But people we know know them. They're a Christian family. [00:59:17] 

 

The husband's an elder and all those things. We end up living there for about two and a half months. And while we're there, there was a particular morning where my kids were at school, my husband was at work, and it was me and my youngest daughter at the house. And at 10 a.m. on the dot, "I hear a loud bang at the front door." And I go over to the other bedroom and I look out the front window and I see just a slew of police officers. Then I hear the man of the house open the door and I hear them say, "This is such and such police. We are here to raid your house." 

 

I run back to the other bedroom, I grab my daughter and I'm like... I hear the police say, "There's somebody upstairs." So they storm up to the upstairs. My daughter is terrified. She's three, four at this point. They pulled the iPad out of her hands. Like, we're going to need every device you have. Come to find out the man we were living with was creating and distributing child porn. [01:00:16] And we were living with a pedophile. I had no idea. 

 

So then we have to get involved with DCFS. And they have to interview my kids. Were they safe with, you know, while living in this man's house? That all happened at like 10 a.m. By 1 p.m. we get the understanding of what we were living with. And we are now homeless. We have nowhere to live. Like they said, you cannot go back to this house. That's fine. I'm not going back to this house. No worries there. But where do we go? And I need to pick my kids up from school at three. 

 

I go back to this house and I try to get all of our stuff out before this man is released. Because, again, they have to go through all of the devices. And it has taken a year and a half. He is now in jail. But it took a year and a half for them to go through all of that. 

 

So I go and I pick up my kids from school, and they're like, "Why is all of our stuff in the car?" And I said, "We're going on an adventure. God's got an amazing plan for us. I just don't know what it is yet." [01:01:20] And God showed up big time. 

 

Because it was COVID, hotels were empty. And a man in the area heard our story and said, "I, for free, will give them two bedrooms." And so two conjoining rooms in this hotel became our home for the next month and a half until we were able to sell our house and buy a home. So my kids will still be like, "Mom, were we homeless?" Kind of. Let's not say that. But, I mean, it was just one thing after another. 

 

Finally, I started to get this chance to share my story. And people, for the first time, wanted to hear and wanted to know and learn and understand what trafficking looks like here. So I would be able to share the signs. School teachers were wanting to understand. My book began to be passed around.

 

The more loud I got, the safer I got. Because I was almost in this middle ground of I'm kind of saying what's going on. I'm kind of going to the police and giving bits and pieces. But I'm not being loud to where I'm really making this big scene, but I'm also not staying completely quiet about it. [01:02:32] And in that middle ground, it seemed to just be where I was the most unsafe.

 

Laura Dugger: That totally makes me think of Ephesians 5, which I recommend the whole chapter. But I will just read a little excerpt. So verses 8 through 14 say, "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"

 

I think this is exactly what you're talking about, Rachel, because we expose the darkness into the light, and we confess and bring this forward, and it loses its power. Sin loses its power, even if it's the sins that others have committed against us. [01:03:51] 

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes. To a T. That was literally the scripture that I remember during this time. No joke. As I'm deciding to publish my book that I had held on to for three, four years, deciding to speak and share my story, it was, number one, the truth will set you free, and then bringing the light into the darkness, because evil does not like light. They will run from it. That was my only game plan. Like, literally, "Here you go, God. I'm going to speak out. You do the rest." And He has. 

 

And now we have this program, and we're helping trauma survivors. I am not healed by any way, shape, or form. I'm healing. And it will probably be a lifetime thing. But the way that I've got to experience God in the midst of all this has been unbelievable.

 

Now I get to pour that into other trauma survivors who have this confusion with God. Trauma confuses the Bible so dang much. What I would love to do someday is have like a Bible handbook for trauma survivors to be able to understand, because you can twist Scripture to say almost about anything you want. [01:05:00] 

 

Laura Dugger: Which is what Satan did to Jesus when He was trying to tempt him. He used it as a weapon rather than as a tool.

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes, exactly. That's a dream I have. I don't know when I'll have time to sit and do that. But God's just been working miracles.

 

Laura Dugger: At this point, do you feel safe as you've brought this into the light?

 

Rachel Timothy: Yes, I do. Now, it's not to say that there's not idiots out there and that there's not still an occasional message that shows up that's just off the wall. But I am stronger, and therefore they don't have their power anymore. I've chosen to do a civil suit against them. The criminal side of things has not worked out yet. So I'm doing a civil suit, and I'm taking them to court. Mainly for the reason, because my coach is still an elder of a church. He leads worship, and he's around kids. [01:05:59] It's mainly about making sure people understand he is not safe and kids cannot be around him. 

 

But God is using it in so many other ways too. Like I'm learning so much about the court system. Ways that victims are not being treated correctly in the court system, and things that need to change. And I'm just at a place where I never thought God would have brought me. I mean, this is not the path I would have chosen. I don't believe it's the path that God chose for me either. I wholeheartedly believe He's taking what Satan has done and bringing good out of it. And I just love Him for it.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Rachel, as you're sharing all of this, and how God is bringing goodness out of everything as He redeems and restores, you have clearly such a unique perspective that I think you can teach a lot of us. Is there anything you would recommend we look for, especially with our children or in our communities?

 

Rachel Timothy: Yeah, absolutely. [01:06:59] I think if you're looking for physical signs, victims are pretty good at hiding those. That's probably not going to be the first sign for you. I think majority of the time it's behavioral or emotional. But if you see a kid wearing baggy clothes a lot, wearing long sleeves, long pants in the summertime when it just doesn't make sense, that could be a sign. 

 

Isolation is huge. If your kid all of a sudden starts to isolate, starts to spend more time alone, or if they are wanting to spend time alone with, obviously, a grown person, that's not normal. Oftentimes these perpetrators will pose as a way to help the child, whether it's a mentor, you're a working parent that needs a babysitter, and, oh, let me come. 

 

As a grown adult, you know, especially as a grown man, to be alone with a child doesn't make sense, especially in this day and age. You just don't. And so they should understand the fact that you're not going to be alone with my child. [01:08:02] 

 

But with children, I mean, asking them the heart questions, not so much, hey, is anybody hurting you? Because immediately I'm going to be like, "What do I say? I don't want to expose him. Will this make me look bad? Will I get in trouble? So asking the heart questions of who you spend time with the most, who do you enjoy spending time with, who makes you feel special. 

 

And ask them about at school, like is there any teacher that makes you feel special? Your coach, your youth group leader. I mean, guys, because it's in all of these areas, unfortunately. But if you have an isolated period, if you have a drastic shift in personality, all of a sudden angry, all of a sudden just not who they used to be, there's something that's happened. Now, whether it's sexual abuse or something else, getting to the heart of that is huge for a kid.

 

Be very, very, very mindful of devices. [01:09:00] My 8-year-old actually got approached on a Barbie app game by a predator. Literally, I had no idea there was messaging capabilities in this app and was blown away at the sick things that he said to her. She didn't tell me because she knew it was wrong and she didn't know how I would respond. 

 

And so be mindful because our kids are being approached by evil nonstop online and have that open communication with them and have safeguards in place for them. But not only that, then you're also going to have kids at school that are seeing those things and are then going to talk to your kids about it or want to act out on your kids with it.

 

I mean, our kids are in the lion's den and we have to equip them. We want to cover their ears and cover their eyes and say, don't look at the evil world. But then they're not prepared for what they are going into the world and facing. And so we have to talk to them about it. [01:10:00] 

 

Those are probably some of the biggest signs that I can think of and practical ways of empowering our kids to fight this evil.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and then would you share a little bit more about even the resources that you've made available and your nonprofit?

 

Rachel Timothy: Yeah. So our nonprofit is Stop Suffering in Silence. We acronym it Stop SIS. But along the way, along my journey, I met this amazing lady, Denise Walsh. She is a former clinical psychologist, but she has a huge heart for victims and just really she wants everybody to find their spark, to be able to live free of all of that baggage. 

 

I did one of her programs called 90-Day U-Turn. That is where for the first time I walked away from my eating disorder. And when I did the chains that fell off of me, like that was my coping skill of I can't live without this. The pain will be too much. I didn't trust God to be my comfort. [01:10:59] So it was one of those where, God, I will let it go. Once you comfort me enough, then I will let my eating disorder go. But I needed to let my eating disorder go in order for God to be my comfort. 

 

I went through that journey while I was on 90-day U-Turn, and it changed my life. So now we're like, we need to pass this information along. We need trauma survivors to have a chance to do this program just for trauma survivors. So we started Stop Suffering in Silence where we do the same program, but geared towards trauma survivors. And it's obviously a 90-day program. We do it all through Zoom. Women from all over the country join us and take this program, and it's been life-changing for them. It's been beautiful.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and if any of us want to do our part to get the truth out there or support you in your ministry, what would you advise for each of us?

 

Rachel Timothy: So you could go to our website, stopsuffering.org, if you are interested in donating to help with these women. [01:12:05] Everything that we provide is free. We take them on retreats. We love on them and give them an extra dose of healing while we're out there. 

 

And then we also have what we call the Granny Program, where because of the Granny in my life and the way that she literally pulled me out of the darkness, we have where when they're done with the 90-day U-Turn, a survivor, we pair them with a healthy adult woman of God who becomes their mentor and just walks alongside them through life to be a phone call away, a text message away, to just say, you can tell me anything and I'm here. We train our grannies and we stick with our grannies because they need encouragement along the journey too. 

 

Then I also recently wrote a book, Reflecting Ownership, which is a trauma program, and we're providing that for these women as well and going around and speaking and opening eyes. I get an opportunity to speak at a hospital later this afternoon and shed light on what trafficking looks like there. [01:13:07] 

 

So there's just a lot that God is opening doors to. So we have a prayer team if you would be interested in joining that. But yeah, and if you know of anybody who is struggling with trauma, have them reach out to us. We're not going to hash and rehash and go over and over your trauma. That's not our job. We always recommend counseling for sure. But there comes a point where you've said it all and you still feel stuck. And that's where I was for the most part. Yes, I still have flashbacks and triggers and struggles, but I was stuck in my trauma.

 

This helps you dream again. It helps you get out of that and to see yourself as God sees you. You have a community of people who understand you. You're on Zoom. You don't know these people from Adam. You can share your heart and know you're not going to see them in the grocery store next week. And it's just been really empowering to see these women take control of their life again and do things they never thought possible.

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We will absolutely add links in the show notes for today's episode and also to the books that you've written. [01:14:13] I've read both of those, and I appreciate you clearly give God all the glory. And we get to see more of your spiritual walk through all of this. 

 

We also get to see what you were talking about, how the Bible was twisted in certain ways and used against you, but then how God continues to reclaim and redeem all of this and even the miracles that he's shown you along the way. And we don't have time to cover all of it, but I would recommend those resources. And just like your first one is entitled, it does help us open blind eyes. And so I recommend those to everyone listening today. 

 

But on a lighter note, Rachel, you know that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Rachel Timothy: My savvy sauce, I would have to say, is the Bible. It's crazy because that's what was used against me. But as I have been able to study it myself and see God's character in a way that I didn't see before, it blows my mind how much He loves and cares for us. [01:15:25] 

 

When I opened the Bible in the past, I felt shame. But now when I open it, I feel loved. So for anybody out there who is struggling with, well, where was God when this happened? And why did God allow this to happen? And who is He and who am I to Him? All those questions, if you truly want to know, if you really want to understand Him, it's right there. And there's resources and there's people who can help guide you to understanding his character. 

 

But, I mean, when I get in His word, probably on top of the word is when I stop and just listen. When I'm quiet, when I quiet my mind, when I quiet my heart, everything, and just pause, even if it's just in the morning for just a little bit, and I let God speak, it's my favorite part of the day. I can't get through the day without that moment of letting Him speak life into me. So that's 100% my savvy sauce.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. I can see even getting to be face-to-face with you, just the love of God pouring in and through you. [01:16:30] I so much enjoyed getting to know you a bit better. This is not an easy story to share and so I just want to thank you for being courageous to do this and bring this into the light. I pray that it causes more healing for you and also for others, that it will set captives free.

 

So thank you for sharing the power of your testimony, because we know we can overcome Satan with the blood of the lamb and the power of our testimony. So thank you so much, Rachel, for being my guest. 

 

Rachel Timothy: Thanks for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [01:17:32] So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

 

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [01:18:32] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [01:19:37] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom

228. Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships  with Joey Odom

**Transcription Below**

“A wise woman builds her home, but a foolish woman tears it down with her own hands.”

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you explain the habit loop for how habits work and share how Aro fits into that?

2. What are the awesome, relational impacts you are seeing, whether you planned for those or not?

3. Will you share a few stories to illustrate the changes Aro is making in people's lives?

 

Joey Odom is the Co-Founder of Aro. He is a natural storyteller and a dynamic leader known for his ability to inspire and foster deep connections with others. Joey's experience with technology as a husband and dad led him to help create Aro alongside Co-Founder Heath Wilson.

 

Join Aro (Use code SAVVY for 1 month off a prepaid annual membership & 2 months off a two year membership)

 

Follow Aro: Website, Instagram, and Podcast

 

Other Technology Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

 

Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank

 

Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

 

Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay of The Plugged In Staff

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. Do you love to travel?

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Do you love to travel? If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, Dream Seller Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamSellerTravel.com. 

 

Joey Odom is my guest today, and he is the co-founder of Aro. He is a natural storyteller and a dynamic leader known for his ability to inspire and foster deep connections with others. Joey's experience with technology as a husband and father is what led him to help co-create Aro alongside co-founder Heath Wilson. 

 

This topic always excites me, and it's been a joy to host additional incredible guests who have shared unique perspectives on this topic. So I'll make sure to link other episodes in the show notes as well that are related to why stewardship of technology. [00:01:21] But for now, we get to learn from the kind and creative Joey Odom. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Joey.

 

Joey Odom: Laura, so good to talk to you. Really excited for this conversation.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I am as well. I'd love for you to begin by just telling us a bit about yourself and your family.

 

Joey Odom: Sure. My wife and I, we met... we were college sweethearts. So we met in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is where I'm from. She's from Buffalo, New York, originally. So we met there.

 

Candidly, a little bit of an unlikely couple. I'm 6'5". My wife claims to be 5' tall, but she's probably just a hair under 5' tall. So we got about a foot and a half between us. But for some reason, she still decided to marry me. So I was grateful for that. 

 

But we lived in Tulsa for years. We moved to Atlanta. We lived there for about a decade. We live in Knoxville now, and we have two kids. We have a 15-year-old son, Harrison, 13-year-old daughter, Gianna. [00:02:21] They were both born in Oklahoma, so they are Okies, just like me. And it's just been great.

 

We were talking a little beforehand. We're huge Atlanta Braves fans. We love sports. We love being active. In some ways, just kind of living out the dream that I had hoped for all my life.

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And yes, Atlanta, Georgia, is a city I will forever love. That's where I met my husband. And so we may have overlapped there. But will you just tell us what you did previously in Atlanta? And then also share what led you to move your family to Knoxville, Tennessee.

 

Joey Odom: Yeah. We were in Atlanta for nine years. I was in commercial real estate. I started my career back in Oklahoma. So then went to Atlanta to head up the company I was with, that office. I always said with real estate, real estate was not... and I bet you a lot of people can relate to this. I had no particular passion for real estate. [00:03:22] I loved what I did. My passion was more about being genuinely who I am, hopefully bringing out the best in people, connecting with others. And so real estate was a great vehicle for that. But I loved it.

 

It was something that I frankly probably would have never left except for a series of formative experiences kind of crescendoing in a text from Aro's co-founder, my friend Heath Wilson. So I'll take you back when we were in Atlanta. I'll take you back about 10 years.

 

So at that time, my son Harrison was five years old. So this was an ordinary Saturday afternoon. But that day, something absolutely extraordinary happened. I kind of remember this memory, Laura. I kind of remember it almost like it's a movie, almost like it's slow motion with the dramatic music in the background. 

 

Harrison, my son, he rears back his leg, he kicks the ball kind of... again, this is the slow motion part. I can see it, that ball rolling, the camera following it. The ball rolling into the back of the net. [00:04:23] And this was not just any goal. This was Harrison's very first goal. And the crowd goes wild. They see everybody on the team had scored a goal except for Harrison. So this was a big deal for the last kid on the team to score a goal. 

 

So the coach picks Harrison up, the crowd goes wild. Everybody knew what had happened. But right before that, there was this moment, and it's kind of this moment that's suspended in time, where Harrison turned. The very first thing he did was turn to the sidelines to lock eyes with me, for him to see, for us to share that moment, for him to see the pride on my face, the smile on my face. And honestly, Laura, it was absolutely magical. Except I missed it. I didn't see any of what I just described. 

 

When Harrison looked over at me, he was looking at the top of my head. And I was looking down at my phone. And it was that moment where... and the good news is Harrison says he doesn't remember this, which is great. But for me, I do remember it. It is kind of burned in my mind. Not in a moment of shame. In the moment, it probably was. [00:05:25] 

 

But I just realized something then, Laura, that something was wrong. Something was off. That I had, for some reason, such a compelling relationship with the device in my pocket that it was getting in front of the most important relationships in front of me. So that was a moment when I said... and I would like to say everything got better from there. I had this great epiphany, and then everything changed. It didn't. There were, unfortunately, other moments like that. My wife trying to talk to me where I just kind of missed out. "What did you say again?" All of these moments.

 

It kind of crescendoed into a text I got one day. And this is coming up now on, gosh, five years now. Almost within a month or so. I got a text from Heath Wilson, who we had met at a small group in Atlanta at Buckhead Church, which is one of Andy Stanley's campuses from his churches down there. I got this text from Heath. He said, "Hey, I have this idea, and I think it could be a big idea." 

 

Little did I know, Heath had grown and sold a business and had done really well. [00:06:26] Frankly, he was retired and was retired for 45 days before his wife told him that he needed to get a hobby. So he texted me, and I sat and listened to this idea. And the premise of it was Heath saying, "I have struggled for years to be present with my family. This is the most important thing to me, and I've struggled. What if we solve this for our families?" 

 

That's where it began. Let's solve this for our families. In fact, Heath said at the time, he said, "I'll spend a lot of money so that we can solve it for our families." He said, "And then maybe if we solve it for our families, maybe we could help some other families too."

 

At the moment, he wasn't really inviting me. That's the funny thing we laugh about is he wasn't really asking me to be part of it, truly. He was actually saying, Hey, here's this idea. And at the end of it, I said, "Okay, I'm in." He said, "Well, what are you in?" I said, "Well, I'm in." And he was like, "Well, one, I didn't ask you. Two, I don't really even know what this thing is." But it was such one of those things. It was almost like all of your life in a way, like all the paths kind of came to that moment. [00:07:30] And he said, "This is the embodiment of the things I've been struggling with about the intentions that I have. 

 

So from that moment on, we started ideating. We would just come up with a bunch of ideas and talk through it and talk in circles. And then COVID hits and we happen to have a bunch of time on our hands. So we sat on his back deck and we started working on this thing. And here we are five years later, and there's a bunch of life and detail in the middle. But five years later, here we are kind of working on it. 

 

In the middle of that, he moves his family to Tennessee and I quit my career about three years ago and then we move our family to Tennessee. So here we've been kind of working on this project for the last five years. In the meantime, just like he had hoped, it's done wonders in our families, and we're seeing it do wonders in others' families.

 

Laura Dugger: Joey, that is such a powerful story. There's so many elements going back to Harrison. I mean, just as a parent, relating to those missed moments. [00:08:30] And yet I love that you speak God's grace over it too. That he doesn't even remember that and yet it was used as a powerful catalyst for change in your life. 

 

So now you and Heath partnered together. You launched Aro. The more I learn about it, I am fascinated by all of the intentional layers. So can you share some of those?

 

Joey Odom: Yeah. From top to bottom, we have a great team around us who helps us really think through all the details. But everything about it has to be very carefully curated. 

 

One thing that we've thought through on this is that our relationship with the phone, it's almost like society talks about it as if it's like, oh, yeah, my relationship with my phone. We talk about relationship with technology, relationship with devices, without taking a pause to say, Hold on, that's weird. We don't have relationships with any other objects in our life. So this is the only thing we have a relationship, which is just absolutely fascinating. [00:09:32] 

 

I see my lawnmower about once a week, nine months out of the year, but I don't have a relationship with it. I don't go sneak in a quick mow when a conversation gets boring, right? But it's a tool that takes me from A to B. Maybe the closest comparison in terms of relationship could be our cars. But I don't have a relationship with my truck. I load some stuff in the back of it when I need to take it somewhere. I take my kids to school in it. But it's not a thing I have a relationship with. 

 

So why is it that our phones are things that we have relationships with? Well, I think it's because of three reasons. I think there are three kind of defining characteristics to any relationship. 

 

One is proximity. That's the first one. And with our phones, let's think about it, 91% of us have our phones with us all the time. So we are proximate to our phones virtually all the time. So that's one key defining the element of relationship. 

 

The other one is interaction. So how much you interact with something or somebody. So we are interacting with our phones all the time. In fact, when it comes to our phone, 89% of our use is self-initiated. [00:10:31] So it's not the inbound things. It's not the notifications pinging us. It's us saying, Hey, I want to see what the weather is, and then we start going down the rabbit trail, and that's when it starts getting in the way of other relationships. 

 

The third thing, and this is the real tricky one, is our level of dependence on our phones. This talk, this message that we have, is so much easier if we could just say, Your phones are terrible. You need to throw them away and get a flip phone. That's a much easier and more palatable thing. But this issue is more nuanced than that. It's not so cut and dry. 

 

Because think about it. We are dependent on our phones for so many things, so many good and helpful things in our life. I take Waze. Waze saved me four minutes this morning on my route. I mean, I could order right now. I could order a Jimmy John's sub and have it to me by the end of this interview, right? I mean, I learn French. I do all these things on my phone, right? So it's a good thing. 

 

But here's the problem is it's getting in the way of our most important relationships. [00:11:31] So for that reason... I think this is a really important... that's a long precursor to say this is a huge issue. It's a huge issue, and it requires the most careful attention to detail. 

 

And the way that we approach this, we are not an app blocker. We don't disable phones or notifications or anything. We get back to the core relationship with our phone. And the question we ask ourselves is, how can we change the relationship we have with our phone? Because when you change your relationship with your phone, you change your relationship with everyone around you. 

 

So let's talk about those intentional things that we have. One of them, the premise of Aro is, how can we get your phone out of your hands or away from your body? Dr Maxi Heitmayer of the London School of Economics talks about this. He says, the only way, the only way to reduce your screen time is for it to be away from you and out of sight.

 

So the market is not looking for another box for your phones. [00:12:30] Everybody I've ever met either has a drawer or a shoe box. So we already have a place where we can put our phone. 

 

So what the market is looking for is a system that gets us to the point of putting our phones down. So we merge both of those in. Aro literally is a physical box, a device where you put your phone, but it's also the app experience that goes around that gives you those reminders for you to put your phone down and then rewards you and tells you you're doing a good job and builds in all these tips and tricks that social media companies, what they use to keep us on our phone, we use it to keep us off. 

 

So it begins with design. This Aro box is beautiful. It's wife designed, it's wife approved. Luckily for everybody, I didn't design it. So it's a beautiful thing. 

 

And the reason why that's important is because this is the visual cue that stands out in your home. This is actually the physical embodiment of the intentions you have, the values you have in your family. So it's designed to sit in a prominent place for you to see it and for that to trigger something in your brain to actually initiate the habit loop, which is cue routine reward.[00:13:35] We can talk about that a little bit later. But this is the physical embodiment. When I see it, I say, Oh yeah, I'm going to put my phone down. So it has to be beautiful.

 

If anybody out there is like my wife, she will not let me put out a Nike shoe box on the counter. People will say, well, what about a shoe box? You can do that, but that would last about 48 minutes in my home before my wife says, "Get that thing out of here." So that's the one thing is that. 

 

And then the app experience itself. Again, I think this is really important, how we treat our relationship with our phones. A lot of people will talk about the way we use our phones and they'll use terms like addiction. Now, I'm not saying that people aren't addicted to their phones, but science would tell us that say about 99% of Americans aren't actually addicted to their phones. 

 

But when we talk about it, we'll say things like, and almost ingest, we almost laugh about it, like, "Oh man, I'm so addicted to my phone. Almost like we're giving ourself a pass for how much we use our phone and using it as a crutch. But what we're really saying is, and this is true of addiction. 

 

When someone's addicted to something, what do they do? The first thing they do is they say they're powerless over the thing. And the second thing is they completely abstain from the thing. [00:14:44] That's the only way to handle addiction. You say, "I'm powerless. I need help. The second one is I have to abstain from it. 

 

We're not suggesting that at all when it comes to our phones. We're actually saying, one, you do have agency. You do have power. And the second thing is you don't have to abstain from it. You just have to reshape your relationship with it. An alcoholic can't reshape their relationship with alcohol without abstaining from it. That's not the case here.

 

So when we say it's a habit, all of the platform of Aro is based around treating this like a habit. So let's help you within the app. We have a great product team that says, okay, what are the things we can do? What are the reminders, the nudges we can send? How can we help people establish these rhythms to establish it like a habit where you have the cue, which is visual or through the app, leading to the routine, the physical act of putting your phone down and then crescendoing in the reward, which again is getting your daily streak or seeing how much time you've accumulated or competing against others. 

 

But we all know the real reward is not an app badge. The real reward is not maintaining a streak. [00:15:43] The real reward is the life that happens on the other side of your phone.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, you articulate that so well. What happens on the other side of putting down your phone is even part of your name. So can you share what Aro means?

 

Joey Odom: Yes. Aro is this beautiful term. We're saying it in an Americanized way. It's something more like Aro in the Maori language. We've learned about that culture. Actually, Heath has had a chance to spend some time in New Zealand with some people from the Maori culture. And it's a beautiful culture and language. And that term means "to notice", means "to turn towards", means "to take heed". 

 

And what's cool about that to us, we actually had this original idea that we'd call this company Smarter. It's the outsmart your smartphone. The problem is that there's nothing motivational about putting your phone down. What good is that? Our phones are cool. They're great. Unless there's something greater when you put your phone down. And that's what this is. [00:16:44] 

 

What if we noticed for a moment, even think personally, what if we noticed the feeling inside of us? Something feels a little bit off and you just had this moment... and I'm doing it even physically right now, just closing my eyes and just taking in a deep breath. You think, okay, what am I feeling in there? And you can explore that feeling. You can explore that. And you can go down and chase it down and be like, Okay, here's what's wrong. And then maybe that leads you to notice some disrepair in a relationship. And you can actually go address that. 

 

Or maybe you want to read a book, and you need some time to notice these beautiful words in a book. Or what if it's a time to notice that your daughter may seem a little bit off? If Gianna, my 13-year-old, just something's off, what if I took a moment to notice that and then went and sat down on the couch and explored that? That's life-changing stuff. 

 

And so we all talk about focus and culture, but we can't focus unless we have noticed first. So for us, in a word, it is such a beautiful embodiment of the lifestyle, and here's what's cool, Laura, of the lifestyle that's available to every single one of us is this lifestyle of notice, this lifestyle of aro. [00:17:55] 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up, like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe. If so, you need to call Dream Seller Travel. 

 

Dream Seller Travel is located in central Illinois, but works with clients all across the USA. Whether you're wanting to plan a large family get-together someplace tropical, or take a cruise with your family, or maybe you want to explore the history and culture of a European town, regardless of the trip, Dream Seller Travel is there to assist you with your planning needs.

 

From the customized trip design and the ideas through the small details and the preparations before the trip, and even while traveling, Dream Seller Travel is there with you every step along the way, making it seamless and stress-free. Dream Seller Travel can work with your travel plans as you have laid them out, or they will customize a trip for your requests. [00:18:57] In most cases, there's absolutely no service fee for this work.

 

Instead of booking online and being the one to deal with your airline schedule changes or the sudden change in country entry requirements, or the hotel that looks beautiful but is really under construction, call a professional. Let them deal with the problems that arise while traveling so you can just enjoy the trip. 

 

Dream Seller Travel has been planning dream trips since 2005 to amazing destinations such as Alaska, Italy, Hawaii, Canada, the Caribbean, United Kingdom, Germany, Switzerland, France, South Africa, Iceland, and more.

 

Where do you dream of going? You can reach out to the Dream Seller Travel at (309) 696-5890 or check them out online at DreamSellerTravel.com. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:19:56] 

 

Laura Dugger: Joey, what are some of the relational impacts that you heard of people sharing stories, maybe even ones that you never planned for?

 

Joey Odom: Laura, this is... again, I told you the origin story was, hey, what if we did this for our family, and then what if it helps some others? So when we hear these stories from other families, it's literally a dream come true. It's dreams coming true every single week. We think, we had no idea this would help anybody. We didn't even know if this would help ourselves. So I'll answer that question personally first.

 

So my daughter, Gianna, who I've mentioned a couple of times, when she was 9 years old, we were watching a movie. We watched a Harry Potter movie. At the end of the movie, and I'd been using Aro and testing this out for probably about a year or so, Gianna turned to me and she said, "Daddy," she goes, "did you know that's the first time we've watched a movie and you haven't had your phone?" Which is a gut punch in a way. At the moment, I was like, I really messed it up that bad in these 9 or 10 years. 

 

But what it really, to me, was this recognition, and this is important for all parents to hear, is that our kids notice every single thing we do. [00:21:02] They notice everything. And what's happening is those are all kind of aggregating into what's normal for them as kids, what they expect from you, what they expect out of life. 

 

So in her mind, she expected that I would have my phone. In other words, and here's a little more of a gut punch, is she expected, she noticed, she was accustomed to my phone being the priority, her being the distraction. But in that moment, something changed. 

 

So what's funny is I told Gianna the other day, I told her I was on a podcast, and I said, "Hey, Gianna, I told the Harry Potter story today about when you said that was the first time I was off my phone," and she kind of laughed. Again, she's 13, almost 14. She goes, "Dad, I can't even imagine you having your phone during a movie now." So think about that. Think about what has changed for her. So let's actually think about the implications of that. This gets me a little excited.

 

Let's think about the implications of that. In a few years, 30 or 40 years from now, she's going to date somebody. Just kidding. In the next few years, she'll start dating, right? [00:22:00] And what if that guy is on his phone throughout dinner? What's going to happen? She's going to say, "Hey, buddy, pay for my meal, and I'm out." Because what's normal to her is that the person across the table from her is present and looking in her eyes. What a cool reshaping that's going to happen.

 

Real change happens over three generations. I heard Andy Crouch give a talk on this. Over three generations is when change happens. So she's in the second generation of change right now. And what's cool is that's going to pass on then to her kids someday, and that's going to shape what's normal for them, presence for them, whether it's a phone or VR goggles or whatever is normal then. What's going to be normal for them is full presence because that's what she's learned.

 

And that, again, let's be honest, I was so bad at this that I had to start a company to make it better. Most people out there aren't so bad they have to start a company. So that's the comfort for everybody listening here. So that's one. I mean, that's personal in my life. 

 

I'll use another one.  We have a customer in Houston, and she just commented on Instagram. [00:23:00] She said, "Thank you for changing my life," to Aro. So I said, I've got to find out what this is. So I reached out to her, we spoke, and she told me her story. 

 

So this is the Mitchell family, and she said that she had tried everything, that it was so bad. She wanted so badly to be there for their kids. They have two boys, five years old and three years old, and her husband, he works offshore, so two weeks on, two weeks off. 

 

And when he was home, he had a hard time being present. So they have these precious couple weeks out of every month when dad and mom are home, and their boys would say all the time, and I bet people can relate to this, they'd say, "Mommy, Daddy, put down your phone. Mommy, Daddy, no phone." And kids say different versions of this when they're young. They may tell us, Mommy, Daddy, no phone, put it down. They may grab our face. We hear stories of kids grabbing people's faces. So she was desperate. 

 

And in a moment of desperation, she joined Aro, a little bit skeptical. "Hey, maybe this thing won't work, but it's worth a try." [00:24:00] And she said, in her words, "This has changed my life." She said, What's normal now is for her boys to see their eyes, is for mom and dad to look in their eyes instead of down at their phones.

 

So think about the future of the shape. And she's afraid – this is funny too – she's afraid that she's created kind of monsters because her boys will physically grab her phone and go put it in the Aro box for her. But how cool is that?

 

When our kids say, "Mommy, Daddy, no phone," if anybody listening has ever heard that or put down your phone or grabbing their face, if you've ever heard that, I want you to get excited about that. I want you to rejoice in that because that's telling you two things. 

 

One, it's telling you that your kids like you, that they want you to be present with them, that that relationship is intact.

 

The second thing is – I think this is so powerful, and I hope people really internalize this – when our kids say, "Put down your phone, Mommy, no phone, Mommy, watch me, Daddy, watch me," they believe that they're valuable enough for your eyes to be on them. [00:25:01] They still believe in their inherent value. 

 

Where we should start getting nervous is when they stop asking for those things. Because when they stop asking for those things, and they've been conditioned to believe, just like Gianna felt at that moment when she was 9 or 10, is that Mommy, Daddy's phone is the priority and I'm the distraction. 

 

So if your kids are saying to you, "Watch me, pay attention, put down your phone," what a wonderful opportunity. What a wonderful door that opens up for you.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that, reversing that script, because they are the priority and the phone is the true distraction. But then I'm even envisioning... our eldest right now is only 10, so we're ways away from having their own phones. But I would think when teenagers do, there's something called the chameleon effect. And so how have you seen that impact these families where the teens are now getting their own phone?

 

Joey Odom: Well, I will say the right time to change your relationship with your phone is right now, no matter how old your kids are. [00:26:04] We have seen... and this is shocking to me. We thought that Aro would be for families who have kids with teenagers who have phones. We found the greatest adoption we have is families with kids who don't yet have phones because it's a chance to model that for them and build a relationship.

 

Now, when your kids have phones, that's still the right time to start. It's never too late to start that. Your goals probably change. They're a little bit smaller. But we talk about the chameleon effect. Let's start when kids are young before they have phones.

 

So the model for us, we talk about the three Ms. The three Ms. And this is how it normally works in families, is that we, as parents, model a bad relationship with our phones. Then we give our kids a phone, and what are they going to do? The second M, they mimic exactly what we have modeled for them. 

 

But then something absolutely crazy happens. We then get mad at them for mimicking what we've modeled. That's just nonsensical. It's hilarious that we do that, but we're just expecting them to do something that we didn't do for them. [00:27:03] 

 

So the reverse of that is we model a good relationship, they mimic a good relationship, and then we make memories, and we have all these great moments with our kids because of that, and we're creating a great future for them as well. Now, again, I'm a huge proponent, younger, younger, younger. That's the greatest with anything, teach somebody younger. But, again, it is right now is the time to do it. 

 

So we heard a story from one of our customers. She has a teenager and she has a 5-year-old. So she was gone one day, and she came home, and she walks in the house, and she sees her teenager's phone in the Aro box, which she thought was a little bit, wow, I figured she'd be on her phone while I was gone. She goes back in the back hammock, and taking a nap is her 16-year-old and her 5-year-old, just in there, cuddled up, taking a nap. What an amazing thing! 

 

We don't give our kids enough credit. Our kids will adapt. I think our kids are craving... I don't think this. I know our kids are craving connection from when they're infants to when they're 16, they're 18. [00:28:04]  No matter how old they are, they're craving connection. So we've seen really cool adoption from teenagers as well who do have phones. 

 

Now, I think with teenagers, just a word for everybody is I think you just start with smaller goals.  Don't go in and wholesale try to change something that they've had embedded in their brains for a long time. Start with a small goal. And we can talk through some of those practicalities. But if you begin small when they're older, and it goes back to this whole principle, and this is from Scott Kaufman, who's kind of a sage mentor of ours, who says that in addressing phones, do it when they're young, because at that time, the stakes are high, but the pain is low.

 

As they get older, the stakes remain as high, but the pain gets a little bit more as they get older, but the hope is still there. The stakes are still high. It's still worth it and cool for our kids, they're adaptable, and they will latch on to those things you teach them no matter their age.

 

Laura Dugger: And even thinking beyond teenagers with this chameleon effect, and the chameleon effect just being when you see somebody else do something, it prompts you to do the same. [00:29:07] I think of random habits, but my husband, when he is flossing every day, I'm like, Oh, yes, I need to be doing this, too. It has a crazy effect on us. So I can see the parents putting away the phone and the teen following suit. 

 

Or even with married couples, what are some stories that you've seen where the marriage changes with the Aro box?

 

Joey Odom: This is one that I love because our marriages I believe we're in an intimacy crisis right now in marriage. I think divorce rates have stayed about the same over the last few years, but if we're gauging effectiveness of marriage in terms of divorce or not divorce, just in those binary terms, that's not the full picture of marriage. 

 

Marriage is about intimacy and closeness and being fully known and fully loved. And so one piece of advice that we give, so I was talking with an Aro member named Chris, and Chris said, Okay, I'm going to come in, and I'm going to pitch this to my family and tell them we're going to do this. And I said, "Hold on, buddy. Hold on one second. [00:30:07] Don't do that. Just model it yourself." What if you just said, and I said for the first 60 days, don't even tell somebody we're doing that. Don't even tell them you're doing that, but just model that little bits at a time. 

 

One piece of advice we give is looking for cues for moments to put your phone down. So here's an example. So for Chris and his wife, that could be something like, "Oh, you won't believe the day I had." [00:30:30] And if Chris in that moment, if he just says to her, he's like, "Oh gosh, I want to hear about it. Let me put my phone down." Just that, that small thing, that physical act of him doing that, what does that communicate to Chris's wife? It communicates to her that, Whoa, I mean, he almost kind of stands up straight or she thinks on this phone, about 8 billion people that theoretically reach me. And right now, honey, you're more important than every single one of them. That's that subtle little message that you're communicating to her. 

 

So we hear about date nights. This is one cool thing. We have a box for the home. We have another feature called flip where you just flip your phone over and you can start an Aro session. And then I like to cover it when I do that because I like it to be out of sight. We hear stories all the time of date nights where, when a husband will leave and again, I'm talking... this is easy for me to kind of poke at the poke at the fellows, but this goes for both. Where the husband will leave his phone in the car or, and I love this act is that at dinner, you say to your wife, "Hey, will you hold this for me? We hold my phone for me. That will dramatically transform the date night.

 

So we hear those stories all the time. [00:31:32] And the cool thing is, and I don't have this huge, you know, dramatic, Hey, this completely saved my marriage, but I do have, Oh, we had a great date night last night. So what is that? That's a moment of intimacy and filling up the love tanks. 

 

And we all know this when that intimacy, that closeness, again, that's back to our kids seeing that's modeling that that's given stability in the home, that's giving them safety in the home. So they're going to go replicate that type of marriage they see their parents doing. 

 

And we struggle sometimes of, you know, when you want to give the big dramatic story, but it really is all about, we all know this real change is those accumulation of a million little things all at once. We talk a lot about modeling for kids, but it absolutely is the transformation that happens in a marriage slowly over time as a result of rebuilding intimacy and being fully present.

 

Laura Dugger: Which is just so crazy to me that it really has infiltrated all of these areas of life. And not to go on too much of a tangent here, but the reason I moved to Atlanta, Georgia was to study Christian sex therapy. So when I was in school, I mean, this was many years ago, but there was evidence to show, get the TV out of your bedroom. [00:32:39] You will connect more intimately with your spouse. But now it's so much more dramatic with the phone.

 

Was it you or was it Heath? I think you've even, one of you has summed up a formula truly in marriage, less phone equals more intimacy and more sex.

 

Joey Odom: Yeah. Oh yeah. We never know which part, how racy we can get with that. But believe me, there is absolutely… when intimacy increases, sex increases. There's no question. Sex is that natural outflow, especially for women. And you know this a lot better than I do like in studying it, but that's the natural outflow of feeling safe and feeling intimate, being fully known, fully loved, fully heard.

 

Again, this is just a... hate to call it a cheat code for the guys, but Hey, it's pretty obvious you are more close and intimate with your wife, you will absolutely have more sex.

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. I think you're just showing, that is one practical benefit that comes. [00:33:40] And then you think of all of the other things relationally with your spouse, with your children, with your friends. I just can't champion this enough. 

 

I've also heard you talk about this Aro box becoming a symbol of family values.

 

Joey Odom: Yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: Can you unpack that a little bit?

 

Joey Odom: Well, science has shown again and again and again how you identify yourself is how you will act. In other words, you become more like the person you say you are. You become more like the person you identify yourself to be.

 

Let's think about it in athletic terms. If you say, I'm going to work out three times this week, you might do it, but it's a lot different if you say to yourself, first, I'm an athlete. Nike's done a super job of this. They just say that every person is an athlete. If you have a body, you're an athlete, Nike says, which is great. In the same way, I would love people just for a second here, just to say, I'm an intentional parent. I'm a present father. When my wife talks to me, I look at her directly in the eyes. My husband looks at me, I look at him directly in the eyes. [00:34:40] When something is important to my kids, it's important to me. 

 

One of my favorite quotes recently, and I'll botch it a little bit is always listen to the small things with your kids when they're young and then they'll tell you the big things when they're old, because to them it's always been big things. So even if it feels small, to them, it's big. And that means they're going to open up to you later in life. So establishing that early is super important. 

 

So again, the Aro box sitting in your home, there is one purpose for that thing. And that is to hold your phone so that you can be present. That's the only purpose for it. That's another reason why a multifaceted box is a little bit different. And by the way, we're paying for it. This is a subscription. I'm putting money into this because this is important enough to me.

 

In a similar way, again, back to the athletic analogy, is when you join a gym, that's a little bit of accountability. We can all burn calories for free. We can just run around our neighborhood. We can do pushups or whatever it is. But when we say this is valuable enough that I need help taking some of the friction out of it and one of those friction points is accountability. [00:35:38] 

 

So the Aro box living in your home. And that's something that says the Odom family, this is what's important to us. We value each other. And seeing that that is a constant, whether it's conscious of you looking at it directly, or if you're just walking by it and it's subconscious, that's something that seeps in and says, this is who we are.

 

It's a great thing again, for families to be able to bring up as a discussion point, especially if spouses are aligned on it and they can roll it out and say, Hey, we brought this in our home because this is important to us because we are important to each other because we're going to value presence. And how many of these things that we have in our home that are physical embodiments of the things that are most important to us? So that's another super powerful element of Aro is that physical embodiment of who you are and what you value.

 

Laura Dugger: And I think what made me so excited when I initially learned about Aro is anytime I hear of just a slight change or something with minimal effort, that's going to give maximum rewards. It's a no-brainer. [00:36:38] 

 

Joey Odom: What you just described is beautiful because we're walking through life all the time looking for levers. Levers are exactly what you described. A lever is something that gives maximum output with minimum input.

 

And I'm telling you for everybody listening here, this is the thing in your life. This is the greatest opportunity. There's so much negativity around phones and I just don't subscribe to it because what I see is this is the greatest opportunity we have in relationships today. What a cool opportunity we have right now. 

 

The physical act of putting down your phone can transform a relationship. And by the way, some people may be pushing back on that. You may feel defensive. I bet you haven't tried it because this will change your life. I promise you this thing will change your life. And this is the greatest lever we have in life to do this thing and get a bunch of things that we want in life. Minimal effort, maximum output.

 

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work. And we appreciate each of you so very much. [00:37:39] 

 

If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us. 

 

Joey, can you explain a little bit more about the habit loop and how that impacts us with phone usage, and how Aro ties into that?

 

Joey Odom: Yeah, sure. So the habit loop, there have been several people who have written about this. Charles Duhigg originally wrote about this. James Clear wrote about it in Atomic Habits. The habit loop is simple. The habit loop always begins with a cue. So it's cue, response, reward. Again, with Aro, the cue comes from the app and the physical box.

 

So the cue is the thing that you see. Again, let's say it's the Aro box, you walk by it, or the app itself sending you a notification that, Hey, why don't you spend some time away from your phone? [00:38:41] So that cue initiates the routine.

 

In this case, it's the physical act of putting down your phone, so getting away from it, so starting that routine, and then you go live. Then you go live your life, and then it crescendos in the reward. The reward is... again, through the app, we have all these little breadcrumbs of rewards.

 

It's things like a badge for achieving something or hitting a streak, a multi-day streak away from your phone, or achieving a time goal, almost like a fitness app. I had this time goal. Or it could be competing against your family, whatever that may be. So that's a reward. But again, the real reward, we all know this, those are just breadcrumbs, the real reward is the thing that you have done, the life that happens on the other side of the phone. 

 

What's cool about that, and this is what's neat about people who have used Aro, the biggest descriptor that people say after they've had an Aro session, they say they feel proud. They feel proud about themselves. That's a reward. It's an intrinsic reward in and of itself, that I feel proud of what I've done. I've enjoyed what I've done.

 

And then what happens? Then you just start the habit loop all over again. [00:39:41] When the reward is greater, then that cue is going to be stronger the next time. And you're going to think back, oh, how fun was that when we played a board game, or when I read a great book, or had a great quiet time, whatever that is, will lead back to the cue, making that stronger, leading to the routine, to the reward. So it continues to cycle on in the habit loop.

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, it's so good. So if we're on board, want to give this a try, and we get into the habit loop with Aro, and how you said you get rewarded through the app when you're putting it down, and you get to say what you're doing instead, how does that work in relationship with your Apple Watch, or when you're traveling?

 

Joey Odom: So, great, great question. The Apple Watch has been one of the best kind of accompaniments to Aro that we've seen, because a lot of us get a little nervous when we're away from our phone. If 91% of us are with our phones all the time. It's going to feel a little bit odd to be physically distant from our phone.

 

On top of that, important things happen on our phone. [00:40:42] We get important calls a lot of times. If our kids are at school, it's going to be hard for a mom to not have her phone with her.

 

But what about when all your family's home and it's dinner time or something like that? The Apple Watch is a good way to be semi-connected. You don't doom-school an Apple Watch, but you can see a notification pop up, and say, Oh, that can wait for later. 

 

Or, let's say my mom calls at 10 o'clock. She lives in Oklahoma. If she calls at 10 o'clock at night, that's a call I probably need to take. That's an abnormal time to call. So if I see that on my Apple Watch, I can go pick it up, and I can make... and by the way, the Aro Box doesn't disable anything in your phone. This is an invitation, not a mandate. So it's one of those things that we're not disabling. But the Apple Watch is a great way, almost kind of an in-between point sometimes. 

 

We've heard people say they use the Apple Watch for a month, and then they realize that, hey, I can just go ahead and fully disconnect, and leave the Apple Watch in there too. So that's one.

 

The traveling, again, Aro began as a box in the home, but we have just, within the last couple of weeks, we've launched a feature called Aro Flip. [00:41:43] So you can literally tap something in the app, flip your phone over, and it starts an Aro session. So you are getting credit for the time that your phone is away.

 

Now, that sometimes is with you. We understand the visual I mentioned earlier. So what I love to do in those cases, if I'm traveling, I'll flip it, and then I'll put it in a drawer, or I'll put it out of sight, or sometimes when I'm working, I just put a piece of paper over it. And just not seeing it is so, so powerful. 

 

So the Aro community has absolutely loved, I'm gonna be a little cheesy, they have flipped over the Aro Flip. It's been a really great accompaniment, because a lot of people have said to us, hey, what do I do when I'm traveling? Exactly what you said. And the Aro Flip helps you accomplish that when you're away from home.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. You guys have thought of so many different angles.

 

Joey Odom: Trying to.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, on other podcasts, I've heard statistics such as I think it's 75% of our time with our kids is by the time they're 12, and 90 something percent of the time with our kids is before they graduate, which is so startling. [00:42:48] But it makes me think of this post that you wrote about 40 more days with our kids. So Joey, can you elaborate on that as well?

 

Joey Odom: Yeah. This is gonna get me a little choked up talking about it. I'll back up even more. When Harrison was born almost 16 years ago, it was a long labor for my wife. It was 18 hours. Again, I mentioned she's five feet tall, and I'm six foot five. So natural birth didn't happen easily.

 

So after 18 hours, they said this baby's not coming out, we gotta go C-section. So they wheel her into an operating room. They had some issue with the... gosh, what's the word? The tap in her spine. So it didn't work. So she actually had to get put under. So she had to have a general anesthetic. So I couldn't be in the room. This is something, obviously, we'd thought about, we'd planned for. And so I sat in this hallway outside the operating room. I couldn't be in there. And I prayed a simple prayer. I just said, I said, "God, this has been the hardest day of my life. Will you show me your goodness?" I asked to see God's goodness. [00:43:52] 

 

Two minutes later, I hear the most beautiful sound of my life. I heard Harrison. I didn't know that he was gonna be a boy. We didn't find out the gender before, but I heard the cries of my baby for the very first time in my life. And I saw and I heard the goodness of God in that moment. 

 

So if someone said to me right now, hey, Joey, you only have 40 days left with Harrison, I would be heartbroken and devastated. I would beg and plead for just one more hour, maybe two hours, what about a day? But we're walking around... Harrison's almost 16. That's the amount of time that I have with him before he turns 18. I have 40 more days. But the power that I just said, this extension of time is in my hands. 

 

Think about the time that I'm on my phone. If I'm on my phone every day, I can double that time. If I just reduce that by one hour a day, just one hour a day, if I reduce that time with him, or on the weekends, I could have multiple hours with him a day, I have to put down my phone. But we're on our phones all the time, and we're missing. We don't see the immediacy of this thing. [00:45:02] But I have 40 days left. What if I could have 80 days left with Harrison? I would absolutely take that.

 

So when we put it in those terms and see actually what's at stake and the time that we have, the opportunity we have, it will change the way we live every single day. It'll change exactly how we use every single minute when we put it in those terms. And I don't like putting it in those terms. It's a morbid way to think about it. But I don't think about it morbidly. I think about what an amazing living opportunity I have right now to change everything and extend that time I have with one of the most important people in my life.

 

Laura Dugger: There's so much purpose behind this. So I love how you've been able to vision-cast what is available. Is there anything else that you want to make sure and mention or encourage us with?

 

Joey Odom: I'll say this. Studies are showing how important self-compassion is. And we've been given grace by God the Father. How can we not give grace to ourselves? So if anybody's hearing, if there's just even a tinge of shame, guilt, messed it up, you gotta get all that out there. [00:46:09] That's not from God.

 

Where we have to begin here is with self-compassion. No matter what you've done before, here you are today with an opportunity, with life and death. And we can choose life today by forgiving yourself, by having compassion for yourself, and by being hopeful, just recognizing what a cool thing, what an amazing opportunity. The greatest opportunity we have in our lives is right here, right today. We're all wearing the ruby red slippers. We just click our heels and that can happen.

 

Again, we think Aro is a super effective solution, but I don't care if you join Aro or not. I don't care if you get an Aro box in your home. What I do care is you have moments of Aro, whether that's in the Aro box or in a drawer or whatever that may be, is you knowing that this is an amazing opportunity and to be kind to yourself and give grace to yourself no matter what you've done. The opportunity is today.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, where would you like to direct us after this chat so that we can all begin applying what we've learned? [00:47:07] 

 

Joey Odom: Well, I'll give one tip. We have four tips on changing your relationship with your phone, but I'll give one right now. It's for you to look for cues. Look for cues to put your phone down. Look for cues in maybe an unsettling feeling or a, hey, I wanna read, or maybe with other people in a relationship, when someone who's important to you starts talking to you. Look for that cue and just go physically put your phone.

 

When I say to them, hey, I'm gonna put my phone down. I wanna hear this. Something like that. So that's a cue. Now, that's the one takeaway I want people to just start with today. You can start with that right now. 

 

If you'd like to learn more about Aro, please do. You can just go to goaro.com. You can listen to our podcast. It's called the Aro Podcast, creatively. And then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram @GoAroNow, which I understand people scratch their heads on that. Yes, we do have an Instagram account. Yes, we do think there can be some redeeming things on Instagram, but please don't doom scroll our Instagram account. Just take what you want and leave the rest.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. I will certainly add links to all of that in the show notes for today's episode to make it easy to find. [00:48:08] And Joey, you may be aware that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Joey Odom: So I have a recent one, and this is something I actually read yesterday. So this is very recent in The Savvy Sauce, and it kind of hit me between the eyes. Proverbs 14:1, it says, A wise woman builds her house, but a foolish woman with her hands tears down her house. So that hit me really hard. 

 

It's something that I believe we all do unknowingly sometimes, is we build up, we have all these goals and aspirations, and we get married, and then we have kids, and then we send them to violin lessons and give them language lessons and give them sports, and we start them early on going to school and pre-K. So we put all this stuff into building our house, but then we completely undermine our own building. 

 

We do it ourselves.[00:49:10] There's enough out there, external stuff, that can derail us. But we ourselves start to tear down our house when we undermine ourselves with the way we allow our phone to get in the way of it. So I want us all to consider, how can we make sure that we're not tearing down our own house with our own hands, by our own actions?

 

Again, we're gonna fall short sometimes. Absolutely, have grace with yourself. Have self-compassion with yourself. But let's continue to build that house rather than tearing down by our own choices, by our own actions. Again, I believe the greatest opportunity right now is the physical act of putting down your phone.

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I love that. And really, Joey, it was such a privilege getting to chat with you today. I admire the way that you've put your convictions into action. It's having a chameleon effect on all of us. So I'm excited also for these countless families and individuals who are gonna benefit from it. And on your own podcast, you introduce yourself by saying, it's your friend, Joey Odom. [00:50:13] 

 

Joey Odom: That's right.

 

Laura Dugger: It is so true. You just feel like a friend to all. So thank you for being my guest today.

 

Joey Odom: Thank you. I appreciate you very much. Thanks a lot.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [00:51:16] 

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

 

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:52:15] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:53:16] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

Disclaimer: This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.

 

Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

 

Ephesians 4:31+32 “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”

 

DAVE CARDER serves as Pastor of Counseling Ministries at First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, CA.

 

His specialty is Adultery Recovery and Prevention for which he has appeared on numerous media outlets including The Oprah Winfrey Network, Discovery Health, and The Learning Channel, The Tony Robbins Passion Project, Ladies Home Journal, USA Today, The Counseling Connection, and various other magazines and journals.  He has taught at various universities and seminaries world wide, and has done training for both the US Navy and Army.

 

He is the author or co-author of Torn Asunder: Recovering from an Extramarital Affair, Close Calls: What Adulterers Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage, and Unlocking Your Family Patterns: Finding Freedom from a Hurtful Past. He holds the Michigan Limited License for Psychology and the California Marital and Family Therapy license, and has graduate degrees in Biblical Literature and Counseling Psychology.

 

Dave and his wife, Ronnie, have been married for 49 years, and have four adult children and eight grandchildren. More info is available at www.DaveCarder.com

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

 

Anatomy of an Affair by Dave Carder

Torn Asunder by Dave Carder

Torn Asunder Workbook by Dave Carder

Close Calls by Dave Carder

Schedule an appointment with Dave Carder HERE

Dave Carder’s Website, Including FREE video series on recovering from extramarital affair

How We Love Website

5 Love Languages Website

Couple Talk Website

Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria 

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

227 Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

227. Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 15:1 (NIV) "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

 

As co-hosts of the top marriage podcast in Apple Podcasts, the ONE Extraordinary Marriage Show, Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo speak to a worldwide audience about sex, love & commitment, and challenge every listener to make their relationship a priority. Their best selling book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy, has transformed countless marriages around the world. This framework is simple, practical, and powerful. You’ll be inspired to look at your marriage through a new lens and be encouraged by its commonsense approach.

 

One Extraordinary Marriage Website

One Extraordinary Marriage Show

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. For couples who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are typical conflict styles and cycles?

2. What conflict have you had recently and how did you process through it?

3. What are common issues couples fight about?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick

 

190 Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo

 

205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:01] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage.  Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo are my returning guests today. They love to impact marriages. Alisa recently wrote another book with Tony's contributions, and it's entitled, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution.

 

So we're going to hear about ways each of us can take action and grow in productive and healthier conflict resolution. 

 

Here's our chat. [00:01:17] 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Tony and Alisa.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Hey, Laura. It's so great to be here again with you.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: We're excited to be back.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'm going to add links back to your previous episode in the show notes, but in case anyone missed our initial time together in Episode 190, will you just share a bit about yourselves and the work that you get to do?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. A little bit about Tony and I. We have been married now for 27 years. We have two children. We have an 18-year-old daughter and a 21-year-old son, and we've been blessed to speak into marriages for the last, oh gosh, almost 14 years now.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Out of a lot of dysfunction in our own marriage, we went on a journey to really get radical about how marriage is done, to make marriage a priority, to understand all of these different facets of marriage, and have been just so blessed to impact thousands upon thousands of lives around the globe.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. We always say it here: it's our desire to see you have the extraordinary marriage you desire. [00:02:22] So whenever we're sharing with the one family, that's who we call our audience, it's what can we do to help you have the extraordinary marriage you desire?

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. Back to that previous episode we did together, it was incredible just to hear how the Lord rescued both of you. And really that was intertwining your faith story with your marriage journey as well.

 

And as of today, like you said, you get to work with so many couples. So would you say it's normal for two people in a relationship to experience conflict?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. Laura, I've had the privilege to coach somewhere in the vicinity of 500, pushing 600 individuals and couples over the last 10 years. And if there's been one consistent theme in every single coaching session I've ever had, it's that there's some source of conflict because husbands and wives are different, and how they see the world, how they perceive the world, how they receive the world is different. And when those differences collide, that's where you can have conflict. [00:03:25] 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: And truth be told, having been married 27 years, known each other 29 years, conflict still arises, even in our own marriage. We work on this on the daily. And yet we have the tools now to overcome those conflicts quicker and easier.

 

Laura Dugger: Which is always such an encouragement. Do you want to share or elaborate a little bit further? Any even recent conflict that comes to mind for the two of you that was personal, but how you walk through that in a healthy way?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's so funny that you asked that question, Laura, because I can sense the emotion. But I think one of the things that Tony and I have really worked on over the years is not letting the incident be-

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Like seared into our minds and our spirit and holding onto it. So when there's resolution and we let go of it. So it takes us a little bit to go, Oh, wait, what was that?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So we had an incident with that 18-year-old daughter. [00:04:23] But there's a dynamic there because I do think a lot of conflicts for couples revolve around parenting or the observation of a parent-child relationship. 

 

Our 18-year-old, she's a senior in high school.  She's in the midst of the whole college application search and all of the angst that comes with, where am I going next? And she had a week a few weeks ago where she was just... she was a little short.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Snippy.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Snippy with her parents. She was interacting with me and I was addressing it in one way. But when she interacts with me and it gets to a certain level, Laura, Tony comes to the end of his rope. And so then not only am I dealing with our daughter, but then Tony and I are starting to have words because he doesn't necessarily... I can even feel him getting hot right now as I'm relaying the story. 

 

If he doesn't like how she's responding, then he also starts to get involved. And so now I've got potentially conflict going on in sort of like a triangle mode.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Right. 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: That's what it was.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Which then creates conflict between Alisa and I because of the way she is handling it or I'm handling it. [00:05:26] And so then that gets in between us on how are we parenting and how should we move forward? And so, yeah, that was a bit of a mess.

 

Laura Dugger: But that's so relatable. I love how you point that out, the triangulation. And I'm sure so many conflicts in marriage come from parenting.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Mm-hmm.

 

Laura Dugger: Also, you said that there are some tools that you have in your belt. So was there a tool that you use to resolve that in a healthy way?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: For us, definitely. One of the things that we have come to realize over the years of studying marriage, working with couples, is that it's so important for both spouses to recognize how they process time. What I mean by that is there are going to be situations where one person is going to want to... Like, we have to take care of this right now. 

 

I often refer to it in the book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution, as that need for immediate resolution. [00:06:23] We need an answer. We need a solution. We need to do it right now. 

 

And that person is often married to somebody who needs a little more time to process. They're the ones that want to withdraw, retreat, think through their thoughts. And so being able to hear and recognize for both spouses what's valuable in that moment, and this is what Tony and I do a lot of times, giving your spouse what they need. If they need resolution, being able to say, "Hey, give me 15 minutes. Let me think through it," or "give me an hour, and I'll come back to you." And that person who asked for time coming back to saying, "Hey, I thought this through. Here are my thoughts." And then being able to actually have a productive conversation on the other side of that.

 

Laura Dugger: I also just want us to be able to differentiate then between healthy conflict, like you've modeled for us, but then conflict that's actually abusive. Are there any markers to help us identify an abusive situation?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, I think it's really important as you start to see in our relationship, when you start to see those patterns of behavior that start to become used to either gain or maintain power and control. [00:07:30] So there becomes this uneven balance of symmetry in the relationship. You get into a place where there's humiliation, or you keep arguments going on late into the night and so we start talking about sleep deprivation. There's name-calling.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: A little man.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah, you can get into a place where physically your space feels threatened and those types of things. That's where it's really crossing that line into an abusive and potentially dangerous situation.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. And what we always say, Laura, God never made you to sit in that. I do not believe that we have a loving God who wants you to sit in that. And if you are in an emotionally, physically, sexually abusive relationship, please get help. There are abuse hotlines that you can jump on that allow you to stay anonymous. People can't find you. But do get help. Seek it out. 

 

We are very adamant about that, Laura. When these situations even come up on episodes that we have on our podcasts, we always share this. [00:08:32] Because I do, and Alisa and I both believe that God has not called you to stay in a relationship where you are being belittled, manipulated, physically abused, or even sexually abused.

 

Laura Dugger: I couldn't agree with both of you more. I'll just add one more link to Leslie Vernick's episode as well. She had shared the difference between a disappointing marriage and a destructive marriage.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Ooh, yes.

 

Laura Dugger: It's right in line with what the two of you are sharing. So for couples then who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are the typical conflict styles and cycles?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So when we talk about conflict styles first, most people immediately think of fight or flight. That's where when conflict starts, one person's like, "I'm out of here." That's the flight. Or the fight is like, "No, I'm staying in. I'm lacing up my boxing gloves. And here we go."

 

In the work that I've done with couples, I've been able to identify that there are actually two other styles that often show themselves. [00:09:36] One is freeze. And that's where the person just shuts down. They're not necessarily physically retreating like the flight might do but they're not engaged. It's literally almost like a paralysis in that situation when the conflict starts to manifest.

 

There's also a fourth style that I talk about in the book, and that's the fawning. That's like the people-pleasing. I'll say whatever you want me to say or I'll do whatever you want me to do just to make this conflict go away. So those are the four styles that generally come up. 

 

When we start to talk about conflict cycles, really breaking this down came out of hundreds of coaching hours and watching clients. And  I finally got to a point probably seven or eight years ago where I literally took a sheet of paper and a pen as I was in a client session and I started drawing this circle on the paper. And I'm like, "Okay, well, tell me..." And this is where it started. "Tell me where the conflict starts. Tell me how it starts. Tell me what the two of you experience." 

 

And that's the first phase of conflict. Something triggers it. There is a catalyst. [00:10:37]  There's a moment. There's a look. There's something gets brought up. There's a kid snapping, whatever it might be.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Can I say, too, at that starting point, too, Laura, what may start the conflict isn't necessarily what you're arguing about. You or your spouse could be dealing with a myriad of other things that your spouse knows or doesn't know about. And this now has just started this conflict. It could be as much as the freezer door gets left open.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Has that ever happened in our house, Tony?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Which has happened here. You know what I mean? It could be small things, though, Laura, and the conflict starts. But we have to be reminded there are stresses that are happening in us and in our spouse, there are situations emotionally, you know, mentally that we're dealing with at work, at home, with extended family, at church, wherever it may be. And the conflict starts. [00:11:38] 

 

Laura Dugger: You bring up such a good point, because I'm even remembering back to graduate school. They gave us just a hopeful little phrase to think of when we were in sessions with clients. And if we're getting hysterical, it's usually because we're historical.

 

So that deep history, whether it goes back to attachment or other things from childhood or landmines from previous experiences with your relationship, I think you're really on to something there. So continue.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah. So after the conflict starts, if it's not arrested or interrupted at that point in time, then the next phase is this escalation phase. And this is where one or both of you, you start to feel the blood pressure rising. 

 

This is where a lot of people will start to feel those physiological effects. Like they might start sweating. They might start, you know, clenching their jaw, feeling the pit of their stomach.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Sweating.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: I mean, they're just getting hot. I mean, there's so many different reactions that can begin to happen in each of us at this point. [00:12:37] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: And yet at this point, you still could potentially interrupt it. You just kind of start having those thoughts of, oh, I know where this is going to go. You know, it's sort of that fine line. You can tell us it's escalating. A lot of people will even use that word. Like, I feel like I'm escalating. But that's just this upward arc of things are getting more intense in that phase. 

 

After the escalation phase in the cycle, you get to what I affectionately refer to as the boiling point. You know, if you can imagine a volcano, this is when the volcano starts to spew. And whether one of you is loud and aggressive or one of you, you know, kind of turns into an iceberg and everything shuts down, this is that kind of point of no return. 

 

It's where the words get said. It's where somebody might storm out of a room kind of in that flight stage. It's where the harshness, that destructiveness, that's where this can really come into play at the boiling point.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Tone. 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Tone is a big deal. 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Tone, timing of those words. They become more direct. They're just more pinpointed. [00:13:38] There's a pitch to them that you've heard and it's not a normal everyday voice that usually comes out of you.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So after the boiling point, there's usually some sort of cool down in that. And that's really where, you know, we might not be talking to each other. It might be referred to as walking on eggshells for some couples. It might be the silent treatment. Might be, you know, one person's out and then... I have a lot of couples who have a man cave. So somebody retreats to the man cave or the she shed or, you know, we go to our separate spaces. And there's just this coming back into a place of regulation of the emotions individually.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: I like to call this our time of space. We've hit the boiling point and now I just need some space to get my thoughts together to de-escalate, right? Like to come down from this boiling point. It's like having a pot on the stove. It starts off cold, you have the flame under it, it starts to boil, it's boiling, and then you turn off the flame and it comes back down. [00:14:48] 

 

And I find that this is that time some of us, including myself, can sometimes just want to exercise or do something active. I need to move a little bit. And so this is that time where you're just cooling down, getting your thoughts back in order, what happened, thinking through what you said and maybe what was said at you.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: And then the final stage is this place of either return to status quo where you kind of sweep things under the rug and you just start acting like you like each other again. Or it's a resolution. It depends on what the situation is and depends on who the couple is and how they handle things, which one of those two things surfaces. But getting into this place of saying, Okay, we're going to start doing life together again. We're going to start engaging. Couples will move through that at different speeds. 

 

What I find is when a couple's had this buildup of all these historical grievances, they'll actually spin through that cycle a lot faster. [00:15:45] And they just keep going, jumping very quickly to the boiling point and then return to status quo, boiling point, status quo, boiling point, status quo. And that's really where you get into the destructive nature of conflict in a lot of marriages.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen and, if needed, even save their marriage.

 

Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. 

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. [00:16:43] 

 

While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and so much more.  I've stayed on-site at Winshape before and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. 

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, Winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: And I'm guessing that even when you're pointing this out and you're slowing the couples down to reveal this cycle, I'm sure that's helpful in itself. But when you're meeting with those clients, are you trying to have them recognize the cycle or interrupt it? Or what are some ways, once they're aware of it, that they can start to make that a healthier cycle? [00:17:44] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, the first thing is, as in all things with ourselves, it's becoming aware of what our patterns of behavior are. It's very hard to interrupt something if you don't know what you're doing. 

 

When I first start working with couples around their conflict cycles, it's, hey, the next time you two have a fight, I just want you to think through each one of those five phases and I want you to write down what happened there. 

 

And so just that active process of, oh, well, this is when I started to roll my eyes because I thought you were going to bring that up again. And this is when my voice started to change because I was getting so animated. And this is when I was so mad at you and then I just needed to walk away. And then I was able to apologize. So being in that place where they're just aware of it. Because you can't interrupt something you don't know.

 

And so then as I work with couples, we're working backwards. What happens when conflict starts? What could either one of you, if I'm working with both spouses, do differently once you're aware of what the conflict cycle looks like for yourself and for your spouse? [00:18:48] And we do that at every phase to create more connection so that they don't feel like they've got the Grand Canyon in between the two of them whenever they're in conflict.

 

Laura Dugger: Alisa, I love how you mentioned the words, I'm sorry, in there too, because that is so powerful to be able to repair. I'm sure that's a huge part of it then.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. You know, so much is gifted when there's an authentic "I'm sorry", when there is that genuine bid for repair in the relationship, not just the flippant, well, I'm sorry, whatever, you know, that type of thing. "But you know what? I've had time to actually process what happened. And I am sorry for my behavior. I apologize to you. I'm asking you to forgive me for the words I said or how I came across." When there's that genuine bid for repair, so much is gifted to a marriage.

 

Laura Dugger: It reminds me of that scripture, a gentle answer turns away wrath.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: That's actually one of my most favorite scriptures, Proverbs 15:1. [00:19:52] When it comes to talking about conflict and whatnot, the soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. I always listen to podcasts. And so recently I was listening to one, I believe his name is Brant Hansen, who recently wrote a book about being unoffendable. He was pulling out the truth of that scripture and just saying it turns away wrath in the other person when you approach them with humility to seek forgiveness. But also your own wrath and anger dissipates. And that's why biblical principles are always the best. Right?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Absolutely.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, because we feel the words that we speak and how they're spoken before the other person ever receives them. We experience them first. And so if we choose that soft answer, that is such a conscious choice on our side that can't help but impact the entire situation.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Laura, you know, as Alisa shared, been married 27 years, and so by no means has our marriage been perfect all those years. [00:20:56] There was a time when... and this is just in the recent past, I'd say in the last two, three years now, definitely coming out of the pandemic type stuff that we all dealt with a lot of anger. I was facing that. 

 

There was this point where I remember just everything Alisa said to me that I didn't agree with, the conflict started. And it escalated quickly, to no fault of Alisa's. It was really myself. I had to look at myself in the mirror and realize that there was some stuff that was happening that I wasn't addressing. And I remember just at one point in time, she finally just was very clear. And it's just like, "You have some anger issues going on right now, Tony, and I believe you need to get some help."

 

And it was just hearing that and acknowledging it that I was just like, "You know what? You're right." Because what Alisa just shared there and you did as well, I was the one who was really just stuck in this place. And I needed clarity. [00:22:09] 

 

I went and got myself a coach who also does counseling, but we did it online. So coach on one side, counselor on the other, and just worked with him for a few months. And it was probably one of the best things I did because it really just changed that trajectory for myself.

 

Laura Dugger: Aw, Tony, I'm so grateful you shared that. Even from the last episode and this one, your vulnerability is so respectable. And I think we could learn a lot from your experience with that. 

 

When you reflect back, what was most beneficial and even applicable to help change those patterns of anger?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: You know, for myself, I love coaches because coaches are all about being intentional and taking action. And so when I got to sit down with my coach, he really began to just lay out stuff. He heard me out. [00:23:10] Like we had to talk about what was going on, but he didn't sit there.

 

He began to listen to me and just go, "Okay, Tony, I want you to think about this." And he would lay things out for me and he would draw things out for me. Because sometimes even for myself, words after a while, they sort of just go over my head. But if you show me some diagram like what Alisa put together, even in the conflict resolution book with the conflict cycle, he gave me this diagram and he was just talking about it and how we're on that seesaw. Alisa and I are on that seesaw. And how am I treating her on that seesaw? Like it's a place to be fun. And where am I on that? 

 

It just helped me to just see things differently. And we just work through different things each week until I begin to recognize and release some stuff. And we would go into things and like, what's going on this week? What's been tough? What's taking you to that boiling point? Let's address that. Is it family? Is it business? Is it church? Is it outside friends? [00:24:15] Is it family, you know? 

 

And so just even releasing some of that stuff was helpful. It's not that I don't talk to Alisa about this stuff. Our emotional intimacy pillar is very strong. And yet just having a third party to just listen to some of the stuff was helpful because he listened and he gave me some stuff back where Alisa is my wife. And for her to take that in, she takes it in differently. And how we address it and possible get to resolution is different than me just walking in and just going, "This is what's going on, man. And I need some clarity."

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you draw that out, because you guys are that couple as well that can be the third party to someone else seeking help. I don't usually link to so many other episodes, but you're bringing so many connections about. 

 

So going back, Tony, just how you just briefly mentioned that sometimes you work out to kind of decompress. Alisa Keeton, was a recent guest, with Revelation Wellness and she was teaching how our emotions get trapped in our body. [00:25:20] And that is such a healthy, God-given way to work them out. So I think that's a very practical takeaway that you shared.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: One of my favorites is I get on my bike. I'm a road cyclist. I've been riding since I was 14 years old, and I stopped at times. And then God calls me back and he's like, "Tony, get on your bike." I'm like, "Oh, God, but I'm not in shape anymore and I'm older now and I'm not the cyclist I used to be." And He's just like, "I don't care. Just get on your bike for an hour." And I've had so many moments of just riding my bike... just breakthrough happens. I have music in one ear and I'm just out there pedaling. 

 

It's something I've done, like I said, since I was 14 years old so there's this familiarity with it, which just allows me to just be free from everything else. And God just speaks to me at times when I'm wrestling. And I can just come home and I'm like, "Alisa, I got the breakthrough. I know what we got to do here." It's just like boom, boom, boom. And it's like, Oh, yes.

 

Laura Dugger: That's powerful. [00:26:20] I think it's valuable to get to learn how conflict resolution is handled well. So what trends or lessons are you seeing in the healthiest couples?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: You know, really what I'm seeing and what I'm equipping the couples that I work with is getting back to this place of two things. One is identifying what the actual problem is. As a society, Laura, we've gotten really comfortable being angry. It's socially acceptable to be angry. You can't look at any social media platform. You can't look at the news. You can't pretty much be anywhere without seeing people being angry. We've almost become numb as a society to conflict. It's everywhere.

 

But often it's person against person. We're not identifying the problems anymore. We're just fighting with somebody because they think differently or they've got different beliefs or whatnot. Instead of saying, hey, what's the actual, specifically in a marriage, what's the actual thing that's got us so upset? Are we upset that we got an unexpected bill? [00:27:20] Are we upset that, you know, one of our children is in a really difficult season of life right now? Are we upset that we haven't had time for one another? 

 

So instead of being upset at Tony and going, "You don't love me" and all this kind of stuff, be like, "Hey, I've given this some thought. We haven't spent a lot of time together lately." That's a totally different conversation. And he's going to respond much differently.

 

So one is identifying the problem, what it truly is. And the second is getting curious again. You know, when your spouse comes at you and you can hear the emotion, instead of just going on the defensive and being like, "Oh, yeah, well, you're going to be angry at me? Guess what? I'm going to be angry right back at you and I'm going to raise you three octaves of yelling," we get to this place where we say, "Hey, like I can hear all that emotion. Let's just pause for a second, actually, you and I connect. What's going on here? What have we not been doing that actually makes us really successful? Let's identify that first."

 

And oftentimes that curiosity starts to create the connection. So that a couple can have resolution. [00:28:22] 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's continue on with that, because a huge piece of conflict resolution is communication. So what are a few questions then to promote curiosity and friendship?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's coming to this place of, you know, when you hear your spouse say something, say, "Hey, tell me more about how this is impacting you. Tell me more about what you see going on. What does this look like for you?"  

 

Because we can get so wrapped up in our own,  like, I just got to take care of the 22 things on my to-do list today and I've got three kids that are screaming at me and all this kind of stuff that we can lose sight that our spouse sees the world differently.

 

So stepping into that place of saying, "Hey, honey, I hear your anger. I can tell we're kind of ramping up for some conflict here." And even with a touch that you can grab a hand next to them, you're just like shoulder to shoulder, "Hey, what's going on with us?" Again, that soft word. Instead of meeting them with anger, that soft word with a question of, Hey, what's going on here, can often be that first interruption to say, you know what the other person feels cared for. [00:29:30] They feel seen. They don't feel attacked when they're voicing something. And it's enough to go, Oh, okay, this is the person that I fell in love with. This person still cares about me.

 

Laura Dugger: So there is some questions we can ask our spouse. And even you modeled kind of that soft tone. But I also appreciate in your book how you list questions that we can ask ourselves and help identify when we're most likely to experience conflict, even as simple as does fatigue play a role in our conflict. I would add to that, too. How many times do we get in a conflict because we're in a rush or we're hurried?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Oh, gosh. I mean-

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: I think back to the years when our kids were little and it felt like we were going in so many different directions all at the same time. And I know those are hard years.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: But even now, like we get a couple of nights, two, three, four or five nights of restless sleep or just not getting the rest that we want and you feel that fatigue. [00:30:37] And then you get into your work day and you're just, go, go, go, go, go. And then you see each other at night and you're still fatigued. But now you have the stressors of the day and everything else that comes upon you. And then your spouse asks you something and you're like, "Why are you asking me that?" So it's getting to that root of the issue of like, why am I not even sleeping well right now? What's going on there? 

 

And I love that you bring that up because fatigue is especially for those couples who do have younger children. We were having a fun laugh with our daughter last night because she used to try to come into our bedroom all the time. Eventually, Alisa and  I got to a point where just like... because we were so fatigued and we were fighting with one another all the time. We finally just got to a point where, like, "There's a blanket, there's a pillow outside our door. Don't knock on that door. You can sleep there, honey." [00:31:28] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: This is the one that's 18. So it's really funny to think back to when she was three or four. But we needed some way to interrupt her pattern so that we could continue to sleep and getting to that place. But being self-aware about how you individually do conflict changes how the two of you do conflict. 

 

You know, you bring up that question on fatigue. Sometimes it's just time of day. Sometimes it's you got like work deadlines and things like that. And the more that you can communicate when you struggle with your spouse, the more the two of you can get on the same team to say, Hey, I know this week of... 

 

I've got one coaching client. The husband's got board meetings the last week of every month. So we always know, you know, me being part of their team, that we do different strategies the last week of the month than the other three weeks for them to stay connected so that they don't fall into this place of roaring at each other.

 

Laura Dugger: That is so good and practical. And even the hormonal cycle, just if we're aware of that, you can go in with not only an understanding, but maybe a more strategic or active game plan. [00:32:35] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Correct.

 

Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life.

 

What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that's improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com.

 

Well, what are some other helpful tools that anyone listening can try out to promote a healthier conflict style and resolution?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's really important to change where the two of you have your conversations. You know, like a lot of couples will tell me in coaching, well, we fight about sex. And when I ask the question, where do you fight about sex, they say in our bedroom, because that's where we talk about sex is in the bedroom. [00:33:36] 

 

So I'll challenge them, "Get out of the bed if you want to talk about sex. Get out of the bedroom if you want to talk about sex. If you always find yourself grumbling about finances at the dining room table, then go sit next to each other on the couch." 

 

Changing up the location of where you have those repetitive arguments changes how the two of you interact with one another because everything's different about your environment. So making that shift, you become much more aware of everything around you and so you stay more present in the conversation. The more present you are, the less you go on autopilot. And so you have the ability to engage. You have the ability to answer. You have the ability to actually feel what's happening in the moment instead of just being like, "Oh, well, I know how this is going to go," and you throw up your hands and everybody does the same crazy dance.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: And one thing, too, it's how we position ourselves with our spouse. You know, when we're across from one another, we are typically in a fighting position. Our oldest, our son played football, so Alisa and I... he played D-line. [00:34:38] 

 

So we look at this as he was on the defensive line, nose tackle, and he was across from the offensive line. And his whole goal was to sack the quarterback or the running back or whoever had the ball, right, and cause disruption. But his linemen, his defensive linemen who were on the same team with him were shoulder to shoulder. 

 

And so how do you change that dynamic in your marriage? So if you're having the conversation around finances and it is at the dining room table and you are across from one another, is there a way that you guys can get shoulder to shoulder? Can you get on the same team? Can you see yourselves working together towards resolution with whatever it is in whichever pillar you're trying to strengthen? 

 

But instead of staring each other down, you're now going, no, we're shoulder to shoulder. And our goal is as a team, we're going to attack that problem together.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great visual. We have a common enemy and it's not one another. [00:35:40] I mean, ultimately it's Satan himself. And so I love that. 

 

Are there any other ways that we can be proactive to lessen the unnecessary and unhealthy conflict in marriage?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: It's really important, you know, if you start to see these patterns to get into this place to where you take inventory of yourself. What is upsetting to me? Why do I find myself in these repeated conflicts?

 

Tony mentioned the individual work that he did. Sometimes it's necessary when you see this... it's necessary to take the time to do the individual work, because a lot of patterns around conflict are patterns that are developed as you watch your parents as you're growing up, your childhood home. And you would reference this to some of the work and say that you've done in this place of what are those childhood traumas and whatnot?

 

And understanding what you witnessed, how your parents handled conflict, what the common things were that they fought about, what those inner vows were that you made to yourself about, like, I'm never going to fight like my mom or I'm not going to be like my dad, those types of things. [00:36:52] 

 

Often, all of that shows up in your marriage, whether you want it to or not. So spending the time, and I walk through this in the book, spending the time to do that work allows you to address those things and make changes based on knowledge and not just this gut reaction that you might have said when you were 15 and you're like, I'll never scream at a man the way my mom does. But then you find yourself doing it. 

 

Taking ownership of your life journey so that you're not a victim to it, but you're empowered to do conflict in a really healthy way because you have the awareness of where you've been.

 

Laura Dugger: Another piece of awareness, I think it's helpful, even in your first book, how you articulated the six pillars. So do you just want to give a quick flyover of those as well, because they are very much connected to conflict resolution.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. So the six pillars of intimacy are emotional intimacy. That's your verbal, nonverbal communication. We have physical intimacy, and this is your physical touch that is nonsexual: Hugs, kisses, cuddling, that type of stuff. It can lead to sexual intimacy, which we'll get to here in a second. [00:38:03] 

 

Next, we have financial intimacy. So this is us dealing with our money from putting a cash flow budget together every month to wills and trusts and everything in between that we have there. We then have our spiritual intimacy. How are we coming together around our shared beliefs and religious practices?

 

We have recreational intimacy. That is how are we having fun? What are the activities that we do together? These are the dates that we go on. But really, recreational intimacy is all about what do we do to have fun? 

 

And then sexual intimacy is what it is. And yet, Alisa and I expand that to not only be sexual intercourse, but it is romancing, initiating foreplay, and your sexual intercourse.

 

Laura Dugger: Those are so helpful, because I think as you're talking about growing in self-awareness, that could be a great place to begin and take inventory with where are we at in each of these pillars. [00:39:07] And then your book dives into all of this healthy conflict resolution for those.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. Because by default, when something isn't going well in a relationship, we kind of just say, well, the whole relationship's bad, right? It can be very difficult or challenging to say what's actually happening with us. Where the six pillars of intimacy framework has equipped so many couples around the world to be able to say, okay, it's not that we're all bad or it's all horrible. We're struggling in the area of our financial intimacy. And when you can name something, you can do something about it. And you feel empowered to take action around that and to resolve the conflicts there.

 

And that's where understanding the Six Pillars of Intimacy and being able to bring conflict resolution together it's a really powerful one-two punch, for lack of a better word.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Because like you said, Laura, you can take inventory on each one of those. We've helped couples look at them and just self-assess. From a one to a ten, where are you on each of these? [00:40:07] And which of the six or two of the six that are your lowest? Those are what we call cracks. Like you have cracks in these pillars.

 

And if you can identify those, how do you strengthen them? And then this way, because if the conflict is continuously in that pillar, let's just say your financial intimacy pillar has massive cracks in it and you're in conflict all the time around your finances, well then, okay, how are we going to be intentional and take action? So that way we can strengthen that pillar. So we can strengthen our financial intimacy.

 

What are the solutions? Instead of us pointing fingers at one another, what are we going to do together to come up with solutions? I mean, Alisa and I were in $50,000 of debt. We understand what it means to be in debt and not have bills coming with the big red letters all across the front of it and everything. Like you're past due. Like we've been there.

 

And yet when we sat down, we started to go, Okay, we can fight about this and we can continue to argue about this, or we can start coming up with some solutions so we can strengthen this pillar. [00:41:11] That's when our marriage began to transform. This is back in the day. But that was the beginning of us going, wow, we can do things together when we come up with solutions.

 

Laura Dugger: I guess just as an umbrella over this entire conversation, what scripture can you both point us back to that communicates timeless truths for managing conflict resolution in a healthy way?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: For me — we chatted about it at the beginning — I really do lean a lot on Proverbs 15:1. That soft answer turns away wrath. But I would encourage anyone listening, I've been doing... Girlfriend gave me a two-year study in the book of Proverbs. So every month I read through Proverbs.

 

You want to just spend some time getting right with biblical truths around conflict. Read through Proverbs regularly because there's so much language in there about foolish words and a foolish tongue and harsh words and all of this kind of stuff that you can't help but find yourself convicted by about every third scripture in Proverbs around conflict. [00:42:20] 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Mine's actually Ephesians 6:11. Because we got to put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. And I think we need to put that on at times and realize that we live in the physical world, and yet we're dealing in the spiritual world as well. And sometimes we're going to look at our spouse and we're going to try to blame them for everything and yet there is a devil that is roaring and looking and going back and forth to and fro on this earth, looking where he can come in and cause conflict, where he can cause pain and disagreement. 

 

And I believe if we do not put on that armor of God, if we're not in the word, if we're not praying, then we are susceptible. We are opening ourselves up to allowing this to come in and to take root into our hearts and into our spirits and our minds and take us off course of where God has called us to be when we stood before one another on our wedding day and said, I do.

 

Laura Dugger: You two offer so many resources that can help us do a deeper dive into this topic. [00:43:23] So can you share everything you have available for people to go to next after this conversation?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, I think, you know, specifically as we're talking about conflict, I did write a book called The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution. Subtitle is A Secret to Breaking the Conflict Cycle in Your Marriage. This is the book that came out of all of those coaching sessions.

 

I wanted to be able to equip people who, you know, for one reason or another might not ever show up in front of me in a marriage coaching session and wanted them to be able to say, Okay, this is like having Alisa sit down and talk with us and walk us through. I always say that's probably the best first step if you're dealing with conflict in your marriage is to get your hands on this book. And don't just hold the book, actually read it and consume it. It's got a fabulous reddish-orange cover. It looks great on a bookshelf, but it's actually a whole lot better when you've internalized it.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. And that's available everywhere, Laura. It is also in audiobook. So for those who are obviously listening to podcasts, just like Alisa and I, we do love to listen to books. [00:44:25] So we do have that. And Alisa and I both read that. So it's in our voice. 

 

It's the greatest and I believe the best first step for those who are impacted by conflict in their marriage and possibly even other areas of their lives to learn and to put the tools into their marriage tool belt to go, Oh, we have a tool now that we can use when we hit this place and when we hit this wall in our marriage. 

 

Also, if anybody would like, we have been podcasting now for over 14 years. You can find the One Extraordinary Marriage show on your favorite podcast app. Just search One Extraordinary Marriage Show and it'll pop right up for you there and just follow. 

 

We have many of episodes covering conflict to sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, in-laws, outlaws, vacation sex, you name it. We've talked about it. That is a weekly show that Alisa and I do and will continue to do because we believe that every time we get behind our microphones, we're impacting one marriage. [00:45:29] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: Some of you might find that you're in a space where you need more individualized help. You've heard me mention throughout this conversation that I do offer marriage coaching. You can learn more about that at OneExtraordinaryMarriage.com.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm going to add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode to make it easy for everyone to take their next step. You two are already familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so my final question for both of you, Tony and Alisa, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: So, for me, this is the philosophy that weaves itself through everything that I do personally and with my coaching clients. It's being intentional and take action. Nothing changes in your life or in your relationships until you start to take action.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Gosh, man, you took mine.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: You bumped me to go first. [00:46:29] 

 

Tony DiLorenzo: We're all about being intentional and taking action.

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: What's your second one?

 

Tony DiLorenzo: My second one is what can I do? I think when we find ourselves in a place where many things are happening around us, a lot of times we want to point fingers. And sometimes we need to just look ourselves in the mirror and go, what can I do? That's a great step to take because you can now seek our Lord to give you answers, wisdom, knowledge on what can I do in this situation where I'm at and hear his prompting and guiding.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. Tony and Alisa, you're just both so in sync that you even shared the initial same savvy sauce. I love it. It was such a joy to get to connect with you both once again. So thank you for your hearts for marriage and thank you for being my returning guest today. [00:47:30] 

 

Alisa DiLorenzo: We're honored. Thank you for what you do, Laura.

 

Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. Thank you, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

 

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:48:34] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

 

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:49:33] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:50:38] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

226 Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay

226. Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Philippians 4:8 (NIV) "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."

 

Paul Asay has been part of the Plugged In staff since 2007, watching and reviewing roughly 15 quintillion movies and television shows. He’s written for a number of other publications too, including Time, The Washington Post, and Christianity Today. The author of several books, Paul loves to find spirituality in unexpected places, including popular entertainment, and he loves all things superhero. His vices include James Bond films, Mountain Dew, and terrible B-grade movies. He’s married, has two children, runs marathons on occasion, and hopes to someday own his own tuxedo. Feel free to follow him on Twitter @AsayPaul.

 

The Plugged In Staff gives families essential tools to understand, navigate, and impact the culture in which they live. Through their reviews, articles, and discussions, they aim to spark intellectual thought, spiritual growth, and a desire to follow the command of Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”

 

Plugged In Website

The Plugged In Show Podcast

Becoming a Screen-Savvy Family: How to Navigate a Media-Saturated World - and Why We Should

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. From your line of work, what patterns have you observed between children and technology?

2. Will you also share helpful truths from your book about the impact of our devices on our brain?

3. Are there any certain types of movies or apps or video games or social media that you say a blanket “no” to?

 

 Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Recommended Episodes from The Savvy Sauce on Similar Topics:

Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank

Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

Promoting a Family Culture of Reading with Megan Kaeb

Inspiring Your Children to be Readers Part 2 with Megan Kaeb

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

Paul Asay is my guest today. He reviews movies and television shows for Plugged In. He's also an author, and his latest book with the Plugged In team releases tomorrow. It's entitled Becoming a Screen-Savvy Family: How to Navigate a Media-Saturated World--And Why We Should. We're going to discuss some ways to become a screen-savvy family with young kids and teenagers, and even adult children. 

Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Paul.

Paul Asay: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I am thrilled to be here. [00:01:19] 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to get us started by just sharing an overview of your family and your current life stage.

Paul Asay: You bet. So I am a father of two. My son is 33. My daughter is 30. So what we're going to be talking a lot about today is stuff that I've dealt with for a number of years. The interesting thing about being a parent is you realize that even though your kids are adults, the parenting never really stops. It continues to go on, right? So that's kind of where I am.

I'm married. I live in Colorado Springs. Both of my kids live in town, so I get to see them a whole bunch, which is a joy. I actually have a new little grandbaby that I am doting on right now. So that's kind of where I am.

Laura Dugger: Oh, congratulations. That's such an exciting time.

Paul Asay: Yeah, we could spend the whole hour talking about my grandchild if you wanted to.

Laura Dugger: I love that. That is so awesome that that seems to be across the board that you just really do. [00:02:22] It is grandparenting.

Paul Asay: It really is. It truly is.

Laura Dugger: Well, also, I'd love to talk about your career because your work is so unique. So can you just describe what it looks like from day to day?

Paul Asay: You bet. As a movie reviewer and as a Christian movie reviewer, it is a very unique job. I didn't even realize that such a job existed before I took it. It is an unusual gig. It makes me feel a little guilty, honestly, sometimes because I watch movies and TV for a living. So it feels like when you're saying, Oh, man, I have to watch this TV show. It's a little bit counterintuitive for a lot of people who might listen to that. 

But honestly, the weekdays probably don't look that much different just day to day than a lot of other people. So I work pretty much a 40, 50 hour week and the hours are reasonably regular. [00:03:25] 

There are times in my working life where the hours can creep up just because there's so many movies to review, so many things that you have to put an eye on. And so that can get a little bit taxing. 

The one unusual part about it is that we do drive to a bigger city. I live in Colorado Springs. So we drive up to Denver probably every week, sometimes twice a week, sometimes three times a week to go see some advanced screenings of movies. And we just sort of go there and we take tons and tons of notes as we sit in these movie screens.

I have a light-up pen that I use to take notes. I make sure that I'm counting all the profanities. I'm making sure that I'm taking notes as far as I can in terms of problematic content that might bother some parents. And then, you know, that evening or the next morning, I sit down and I just start writing about it.

Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating, even just visualizing the light-up pen and the practical things that you're doing. [00:04:28] Truly, Paul, I am so grateful for your work because it benefits parents and families like ours to guard against consuming things that may not be good or healthy for us. 

But I think as you describe it, it leaves me prayerful for you. And I'm just so curious, how do you protect yourself with all of this violence and crudeness and even sexuality that you're exposed to when reviewing media for Plugged In?

Paul Asay: Well, that's a great question. And it is something that we take really seriously. Right? As a matter of fact, we're in the process of interviewing some intern candidates. That's one of the things that we talk very seriously with them about, because we'll be asking them to do a lot of the same stuff that we do. That ironically involves us going to movies, seeing TV shows, listening to music that we might say parents and families should stay away from. [00:05:32] So we want to make sure that they're prepared for that part of the gig. 

And how we deal with it, we have a very small staff and we've been working together for a while now. And the way that we do it is really threefold.

The first thing we do is we do quite a bit of research. We try to find out what we can be prepared for, what we might be expecting. Obviously, we go to the movies to see exactly what's in the movie. But usually, there are some clues online that we can sort of draw from and see what we might be in store for. 

And then we pray about it. We pray about it very sincerely. We pray about it very transparently to have some... I don't like to necessarily over-spiritualize it, but I do believe that often in our job, we do have sort of a little bit of protection that has been supernaturally given to us. And we pray for that every single time we go to a movie. [00:06:32] 

The next thing that really happens is in the present, when we're actually watching something, when I'm in a room with my light up and taking notes. The process of taking notes actually sort of helps distance us a little bit from the content that we're seeing on screen. Right. We know because we have this pad of paper, we have this pen. We know that we're working. We are not there to just let the movie wash over us. So our brains are fully engaged. We're leaning forward. We're taking notes.

That can really help us to sort of process what we're seeing as we're seeing it. It helps create a little bit of... I don't want to say a barrier, but I do think it sort of creates a little bit of a line between us that wouldn't necessarily be there if we were just watching a movie on our free time. 

The third thing, and this is actually one of my very favorite parts of the job, we get a chance to, the next morning, we talk about it. [00:07:33] We talk about it a lot. We have a really good staff that we work with. And I love talking about the movie that I just saw with some of my coworkers because oftentimes they will have thoughts that I didn't have. Sometimes if they see a movie, I might have a thought that they didn't have. And that sort of helps bring the movie to a more manageable size, helps us know how to think about it. In our jobs, that's kind of critical is to know how to think about these sorts of content issues.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I think you're even modeling a few tips that we can take as families.

Paul Asay: Yeah. I think that that's true. I mean, I don't think a lot of families are going to be bringing in a pad of paper and a pen. They're not going to be necessarily counting swear words. But I do believe that when you are a parent, when you are taking your family into kind of these realms, there are some things that you can be mindful of based on a little bit of what we do. [00:08:40] 

I think we can pray about it. We can research what is in a movie beforehand. There's a lot of really great sites out there that can help you walk through them. Plugged In is one of them. You can sort of be prepared for what you might see, and you can decide even before you go whether you should or not. But really, the key, I think, for a lot of parents is to talk about it.

Don't be afraid to bring up conversations with your kids after you see a movie. Talk about the issues that you see, what they loved about a movie, what scared them, what troubled them. Sometimes these movies can be a fantastic catalyst for parent-child bonding moments. Because we all love movies, we all like to talk about them. And it gives us a chance to maybe dig a little bit deeper, to talk about issues that might be a little bit ticklish that you might stay away from otherwise.

Laura Dugger: That's well said. From this line of work, what patterns have you observed between children and technology in general? [00:09:44] 

Paul Asay: Oh, man. I tell you what. The world out there is getting more and more technologically saturated, should we say. I think that we live in a very techno world where it is inescapable. So the challenges that parents have today when it comes to technology are exponentially harder in some ways than maybe my parents had when they were raising me. You know, one TV that was right in the middle of the living room didn't have very many channels. You just sat down, and so everybody knew what you were doing. 

Everybody has a screen in their pocket now. Everybody has access to so much stuff. So parents have challenges that are pretty daunting now. We really do our best where I work to try to help protect and help guide what that technology... the role of technology might have in a family. [00:10:51] We try to suggest some nice curbs that can help keep technology in its proper place. But we know that it's kind of an avoidable right now. Unless you just pack up your family and you live on 50 acres in Montana without cell phone service, it is going to be a part of your life. 

One of the things that I would go back again and again and again to the idea that the most important thing for parents is to talk about these things. Keep the line of communication open. To be mindful that your kids are involved with technology and to always talk with them about how they're using it, what they're seeing. And try as much as you can to make those conversations open, nonjudgmental.

It's important for parents not to freak out because that can really close the door on a lot of conversation. And I think it's really important that kids feel comfortable sharing what they're seeing, what they're quote-unquote learning online with their parents. [00:11:58] And the only way to keep those lines of communication open is to be calm, be rational. Keep your standards high but to not freak out if your kids accidentally see something that they probably shouldn't.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. [00:13:03] This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses.

Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated from Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

Laura Dugger: I'm just going to share two of the quotes from your book, and I'd love for you to elaborate on this topic. So the first one you write is, "The younger we are, the more likely it is that those stories will influence us." And then you also say a conclusion that less is better and holding off is wise. [00:14:07] 

Paul Asay: That, more than anything, is one of the keys for how parents can sort of navigate this curious world that we're in. And I realize that probably a lot of your listeners, they may have older kids. They might be 12 or 15, and so the idea of putting some of these rules in place now can feel a little bit daunting. Like the horse is already out of the barn, and you just got to corral it the best you can.

But when you have a chance, you need to be mindful that the younger your child is, the more influential these screens tend to be, the more influential that technology tends to be. Pediatricians recommend that kids under the age of two stay away from screens entirely. And that is because screens can really impact so much of how we learn as a young, young child. 

Our brains are so malleable, so sponge-like when we're young, and we are using that time to learn how to interact with people. [00:15:10] We look at faces. We look at the world around us. We touch. We feel. We taste. When we're young, this is how we learn.

Screens take us away from sort of that real-world environment, and it can slow down and really change how we interact with the real nuts and bolts of the world around us. Experts have said that it can impact sleep. It can impact our learning patterns. It can delay language ability. It can mess with our attention spans. There are so many reasons why screens can be really, really problematic, and the younger you are, the more problematic they can be. So it's really important to be very mindful of those screens. 

I know that as a parent, it can be really, really tempting. Your kids are going to go crazy sometimes, right? They throw fits. They ask so many questions. Sometimes you need to have a little bit of time to just get some stuff done that doesn't involve the kids. And so it can be really tempting to set them in front of a screen, to let them absorb a show. [00:16:19] 

Even if the show is really good, I would just put a word of caution in there because of how screens change how we learn, how we develop. Be very mindful of that as you think about just letting a screen be a babysitter. It's really hard.

It's so tempting, and I totally understand that every parent is going to do it probably a little bit, but just keep that in mind, that those screens change how you interact with the world. 

Now, the older you get, obviously, those screens continue to have an impact on your life, and one of the biggest questions that we get at Plugged In is, when do I let my kid have his own cell phone? When do I let my kid have that outside connection? That's a very tricky question. 

We have one person on our team who is sort of our tech expert who suggests the age of 13, not before the age of 13. But we also really feel that in the world that we live in, we really want to keep those decisions in the hands of parents. [00:17:25] So you just have to be mindful of how your kids utilize technology, how they might misuse it, and be mindful of that as you sort of weigh these decisions.

Laura Dugger: And another part of it that you really drew out in your book that I had not considered this important part of media, especially in adolescence, is the impact of music on our emotions. So can you share a bit, even from your personal experience or from your research in this area, why is music so powerful, especially in those teen and tween years?

Paul Asay: It's so critical. We're living in the Taylor Swift age, right? Taylor Swift is everywhere. There are so many teens, especially teen girls, who gravitate to her. And why is that? It's because they feel like she understands them. They feel like she is speaking for them in a way. And that is really the power of music. [00:18:25] 

We spend so much time talking about screens, and screens are super, super important. But when I look back at my own childhood, my own formative teen years, I really did lean into music. Music was a way that... the music I listened to helped me process the incredibly powerful feelings that I was going through. It helped me process breakups. It helped me process fear and insecurity. 

The thing about music is that it can also sort of encourage us to stay there. It can be not just a catalyst, not just a tool to help process some of these really powerful feelings that we feel, but it can bring us down.

We all know that sometimes when we listen to a song from our childhood, it can make us feel a certain way. We can remember exactly how we felt when we first heard that song or exactly how that song came into our lives during a really difficult moment in our lives. [00:19:32] We can feel that same way.

I know that when I was a kid, sometimes I would listen to songs over and over and over again because they reinforced those feelings. And at that time, I wanted that reinforcement. But that reinforcement, while it can be at times cathartic, it's not always healthy. You need to be aware that especially songs that have really dark messaging, songs that encourage self-harm or have real issues with body image, or even sometimes you hear a lot of songs that glory in money and sex and all these sorts of thing, they can...

Because music touches our hearts in a way that really nothing else does, it can make you think, yes, that sort of stuff is what I want. That is what I aspire to. It doesn't happen with every song, obviously. It doesn't happen with every kid who listens to a bad song, obviously. But it can influence how we think and how we feel. [00:20:43] And maybe that's the most critical part of this, is it makes us feel.

It short-circuits our thinking processes and makes us feel certain ways. When we're guided by our emotions, that can inevitably lead us down some kind of tricky roads.

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. That makes sense because on the flip side, the songs and hymns and spiritual songs that they talk about in the Bible, that's such a form of discipleship. And there's so much goodness about music sinking into our soul. But I love that word of caution that it has to be the right kind of messaging, the right kind of music.

Paul Asay: Yeah. Let me just riff on that because I think that's a beautiful example. When you're talking – when I go into church, that is my favorite part of the service. The ability to sing, the ability to join all these voices within the congregation. [00:21:43] These songs can make us feel closer to God. And that's a place where music is a beautiful thing. 

Music can be just amazing. It can take us to places emotionally that would just be hard to get to any other way. But because of that, when the messaging is not on point, it can take us down some really strange roads. And those transformative moments can transform us into people that we ultimately don't want to be.

Laura Dugger: Yes. So very important to be wise and discerning with the inputs. I'd love to hear eventually many more of the positives because there's so many things we can enjoy as a family or with our peers. But first, I think it is important to zero in on some of the alarming statistics or warnings that we need to make sure we're aware of. So will you share just some of the helpful truths from your book about the impact of the devices on our brain? [00:22:46] 

Paul Asay: Yeah, absolutely. There is more and more evidence that screens can impact us in really harmful ways. In many ways, I know that this is sort of a controversial word to use within this context, but it can bring all the harbingers of addiction.

An addiction therapist from England talked about how giving a smartphone to a kid is a little like giving them a gram of cocaine because of how damaging and addictive it can be. That is something that we should be really, really mindful of when we think about our kids. 

For those of us who had kids who had phones, we know that it can be the very last thing they look at before they go to bed. It can be the very first thing they look at in the morning. It is attached to their hands in ways where it's almost a part of their body and being. They can spend more time interacting with screens than they might spend interacting with real people. [00:23:52] 

And that is a really interesting dynamic that we have not seen in all the thousands of years that we've been around. That is a dynamic that is new — the ability to interact with screens so much. It really has become sort of a conduit, the primary way that so many kids and teens spend time with their own friends. So it's a very significant part of their lives. 

These screens have a way of moving us out of reality and into worlds of our own design. You can see that in the TV shows that we watch, the movies that we watch, the TikTok vids that we watch. We can escape from the real world. And these phones give us an opportunity to make that escape. 

In addition, when you're looking at social media, we can design worlds, shape worlds essentially that are to our own liking too. Everybody knows that society is probably as polarized as it has ever been. [00:24:54] It seems very, very difficult to talk with people who might disagree with you. And part of that, I think a large part of it can be attributed to the internet, technology, and social media because we sort of form these communities where everybody kind of sort of agrees with us.

Back in the old days when you sat down at a barbershop or hung out with friends, there was no guarantee that everybody would share your thoughts and feelings on everything that you think and feel. But now you really can select exactly what you think is right and spend time with people who think the very same things, which means that a lot of our preconceptions are no longer challenged. It keeps us away from thinking proactively. So there are so many different ways in which these screens impact us. 

Another really simple example that I see in my own life, I don't look at maps anymore. [00:25:53] I rely on my phone to tell me where to go. That I think is pretty interesting. You have these incredible tools that we use all the time. And in a lot of ways, they are incredibly helpful and incredibly useful. And yet, because of how helpful and useful they are, it moves us into a space where we're not necessarily thinking as much for ourselves. We lose our attention spans. We lean more toward feelings, less into thoughts. That can really impact how we process the world around us. 

There's a lot of brain chemistry that goes into it. But studies have shown that we tend to... nowadays, because of our reliance on technology, our limbic region of our brains, where sort of the emotional and behavioral responses lives, don't get nearly as much input from sort of the rational part of our brains because it takes more time and more energy. [00:26:59] And our phones and some of the technology that we use gives us an excuse to avoid some of those taxing, thoughtful things that our brains used to be so good at.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so interesting because it makes me think there are definitely wise times to abstain because of all these reasons. But there are also times to redeem technology, to redeem media. So if you're thinking of ideas of best practices that you've seen or recommendations you have for teens and families, what are some of your best ideas for redeeming media and technology?

Paul Asay: It's a great question. I think I would start by talking about some of the beautiful moments that technology can bring into your family's life. My daughter and I have always loved really terrible B-old sci-fi movies, the 1950s, 1960s sci-fi movies. [00:28:04] 

We have watched many of those, sat side by side from the time she was 14 to the present day. We watch those movies and we spend time just making fun of them and enjoying each other's company as we do so. When you think about Christmastime, there are so many incredibly beautiful traditions that many of our families have built up around Christmastime.

But for many families, a lot of it might be watching a special Christmas movie together. It's a Wonderful Life is one of my very favorite movies. A lot of families love Elf. There's a ton of movies that are navigable for families that can become moments of togetherness. And that can be one of the beautiful things about entertainment, that it brings us together. 

You know, we were talking a little bit about music earlier and I think about what I was saying, the transformative feeling of music in church. [00:29:04] That is another place where you feel connected. When you go to a music concert and you're with thousands of other people, there is something powerful about that moment.

And that power isn't all bad. There can be a real beauty in that power, that beauty of enjoying something communally. Entertainment so often can be sort of that communal structure, that thing that brings us together, just as stories always have. We resonate with the stories that we're told. They can help us see into the lives of somebody who's sitting next to you, who we might not necessarily understand that much about. But the stories that we share, the commonalities that we have, can help bring us closer together. 

So that's a really long-winded way of saying entertainment can be beautiful. And it's at its most beautiful, I think, when it's a communal thing, when it brings families and people together. [00:30:04] 

But obviously we need to be mindful of the amount of time that we spend with it and make sure that we keep it in sort of that vein where it's communal. When you talk about these phones, that's one thing that they have helped transform entertainment in. It becomes a singular thing. We watch TikTok videos alone. We watch whole TV shows alone. It becomes something that separates us instead of bringing us together. 

So when we're talking about families and how they should manage these screens that can be so powerful and so good in a lot of ways, sort of push away some of the bad elements for them, a couple of really simple things to think about. 

When you're watching stuff, try to watch it all together. This sounds really old-fashioned today, but carve out some time to watch a really fun family movie together. Carve out a space where you can come together as a family and enjoy something that you all enjoy that you can talk about afterwards. [00:31:07] And be mindful of those times when those screens can separate us.

I would really encourage parents, no matter how old their kids are, to carve out some spaces in their home that are phone-free zones. We don't bring the phone into the kitchen, for instance. Or your bedroom is not a place for your phone.

If you can, try to institute maybe a rule where they actually put down their phone maybe an hour or so before bed. Studies have shown that looking at a phone right before you go to sleep can really, really impact sleep patterns. So an hour away from a screen before you go to bed can be incredibly helpful in sort of calibrating our sleep patterns. So try to think about ways how you can actually remove that phone, remove that temptation from a child's bedroom. 

We always had a rule, no phones at the dinner table. We never used phones at the dinner table because that was a time for face-to-face communication, conversation, talking about the day, talking about issues that are really impacting all of us. [00:32:14] You need to have those face-to-face times. 

And as much as possible, make sure that those screens that are so much a part of our kids' lives are in your sight, within your purview. I think that those are good guidelines. I know that those can be difficult to adhere to in this media-saturated world. I know that it can be very daunting to take away phones even for a time from your kids because they love them so much. But as much as you can as a family, curb some of that time. Don't eliminate it but curb it so that you can spend some time face-to-face, eye-to-eye. I think that's really important.

Laura Dugger: I agree with you because that's training their affections to be more for relationship rather than training their affections to be for this thing they may naturally love but isn't the healthiest to binge on. [00:33:13] To kind of sum it up, what I'm hearing is themes of recommending togetherness and dialogue rather than separation or isolation or greedy consumption. 

But what are some proactive ways we can disciple our children towards healthy stewardship of technology?

Paul Asay: I think it's really instituting some of those really nuts and bolts basic rules. Later is better when it comes to technology. Try to keep your kids as free of screens for as long as you can. That will serve them well. Make sure that you keep some places in your house that are screen-free. Always, always, always try to keep the screens, the technology that we use within a relational framework, if you will.

We relate to screens a lot and we need to be mindful of how we relate to them because as we know, whenever we go overboard on anything, it can be really unhealthy. [00:34:21] A lot of people compare... and we do this in the book. We compare screens to sugar. The technology that we use can be sugar. And the younger you are, of course, the more sugar you want. You don't see that there's anything wrong with eating Cocoa Pebbles for every meal every day because our bodies crave that sugar.

The younger you are, the more you crave those screens. And as parents, just as we don't give our kids Cocoa Pebbles for every meal, we need to be mindful of keeping their screens in check too. That involves screen-free zones. It involves screen-free time. 

And most especially, something that you said, Laura, just now that really I want to drive home, the dialogue. Talking with your kids, there is no, no replacement for that. 

One of the things that I think as your kids get older, parents can feel like their children, especially as they get into their early mid-teens, they're not even listening to mom and dad anymore. [00:35:22] That is not true. That is categorically false.

Even when it seems like your kids are not listening to you, they are. Even though you have so many other influences coming into your kids' lives from friends to teachers to especially the screens that they watch, mom and dad are still far and away the most influential figures in your child's life. 

They are craving conversation.  They are craving dialogue. They are craving guidance to help them navigate this crazy, crazy world that we live in. They need it, they want it, even when they don't seem like they do. And so you need to be very, very mindful of keeping those lines of communication open. 

Talk with your kids. Talk with them about what they're seeing on screens. Talk with them about what they're reading on social media. [00:36:23] Make sure that you are in their lives powerfully because they need you. They need to have your influence in their lives. There is no replacement for a mom and dad. 

Even when the conversations are difficult, even when they're uncomfortable, come in and embrace those opportunities to talk because those opportunities to talk, those are what are going to be most impactful in shaping your child's life.

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?

Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us. [00:37:24] 

Do you have any questions that you suggest we ask our kids and even begin to train them to ask themselves?

Paul Asay: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it really begins with just making it as conversational as possible. You know, when you watch a movie, it's good to just sort of say, okay, what did you love about this movie? What did you like about this particular character? 

Talk with them honestly. Were there things about this movie that scared you? Were there things that made you worry or bothered you? Did some questions sort of pop up as you were watching these movies? Because a lot of times, I know in my own life, even now, even now as a movie reviewer, I will go to a movie and it will make me think about an issue that I hadn't thought about before or think about it in a slightly different way.

That's one of the beauties and powers of movie. But it can also be a stumbling point too if it doesn't have the guidance that a parent can bring into the conversation. [00:38:28] So really just talking naturally when you're talking about a movie, when you're talking about a TV show, to just ask some really basic questions because those questions can lead to other questions.

Another thing that has been surprisingly helpful in a lot of the lives of families that we hear from, and granted, the families we hear from use Plugged In a lot, they really take media discernment seriously. But because they have used our resource so often, sometimes they will actually go to their child. Their child will say, "I want to see this movie." And the parent will say, "Well, let's go ahead and look at Plugged In together and see what it says." 

And they'll read the review for whatever movie it is. And then the parent will say, "So what do you think? Do you think that this is a movie that's appropriate for you? Do you think that this is going to be something that you should watch?" And surprisingly, often, kids will say, you know what? I think I'm going to wait a year or two for this. I don't think that it's appropriate. [00:39:35] 

So sometimes even bringing them into the decision-making process when it comes to entertainment, when it comes to technology, you might be surprised at how mature your kids are actually processing the decision. When you give them a say, it could go surprisingly well. 

Now, let's be honest. I'm not sure if I would have been that kid. There are going to be kids who might go a totally different way. But at the same time, you might be surprised at how mature your kids are really dealing with it.

Laura Dugger: Also I'll just share a couple of things that I learned from you while reading these sections about interacting and dialoguing with our children. I love this one question. I'm just going to read it verbatim. You said, "What images or content bothered you or stayed with you?" I think that's so helpful. 

And then also you go into detail about running the media through the filter of Philippians 4:8. [00:40:35] So there's just all kinds of practical takeaways in the book. But also as I think of being parents, and we do have a responsibility to some point to protect our children. So are there any certain types of movies or apps or video games or social media that you just say a blanket no to?

Paul Asay: It's a great question. I would say there would be a few. And those would be entertainment options that are really predicated on sin itself, right? Technology that involves cheating. There's a lot of cheating apps out there or things that are designed to actually keep secrets from their parents. Those are things you want to stay away from.

Obviously, pornography is a huge issue. Anything that feels like pornography, you would want to stay away from. Things that are predicated on what is absolutely opposite of Philippians 4:8. [00:41:33] Whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely. You want to push away from those as much as possible. 

That said, one of our primary objectives at Plugged In is to keep the decisions in parents' hand. I think that moms and dads know their kids far better than we do. Moms and dads know their weaknesses, know what might be tempting, what might be really problematic or troubling, what might give them nightmares far better than we do. And sometimes some really difficult movies that you would say, Oh, I would be really cautious about this and we should be really cautious about it, sometimes those can hit people in a certain way that actually helps them more than you would expect.

For instance, horror movies are something that a lot of parents would say, no, we are not watching this. I hate horror movies. I don't want my kids watching it. And that is absolutely, absolutely right. [00:42:36] But Plugged In will probably not say never go see a horror movie because we have tons of stories of people who look at some of those movies with their really strong definitions of good and evil. The idea of this spiritual battle between light and dark that sometimes resonates with people.

I know people who have actually been drawn closer to Christ after watching a horror movie. And so entertainment is so much not only about what it is distributing to you, but what you bring to the party. And so it would be hard to give too many blanket answers. It's always so, so contextual.

Laura Dugger: That's very balanced response. I really appreciate that. Let's just begin to wind down our time with a story to illustrate why this all matters. So as your book had a few contributing authors, can you share one of the stories that one of the authors wrote about their dad when he was a residential assistant in college? [00:43:44] 

Paul Asay: Yeah, absolutely. His name is Kennedy Unthank and his father was a residential assistant in college. You know, he was very, very mindful of his entertainment choices. Right? And there was one moment, if I'm remembering the story correctly, where he refused to watch a movie, refused to watch a movie in college. And obviously, college is a time where if you're staying away from certain movies because it doesn't fit your moral structure, you're going to get some mocking for that.

Some people are going to judge you for that. And there was one woman who judged him pretty harshly for that. But the moment stuck in that woman's brain for 10 years and later they had an opportunity to connect. And she told him that that moment that she scorned him so much for she thought about every week of her life and it wound up being an instrumental moment in her life as she drew closer to Christ herself. [00:44:51] 

She used that moment that... you know, I am sure that Kennedy's dad was feeling really embarrassed and thought that there was nothing good that can come from it. But when we have those experiences, it's always planting seeds. We never know when we do good for Christ, how that is going to be impacting people who are with us.

Sometimes those seeds take a long time to germinate. And this was 10 years for this woman. But because of that act of courage by one of my co-workers' dads, that woman came to Christ. And that's an important thing for us to remember in our everyday lives.

Laura Dugger: That is so powerful. Paul, I've just enjoyed this conversation so much, but you have a lot to still offer. So if we want to continue learning more from you, where would you direct us to go after this chat?

Paul Asay: The best place is really to go to PluggedIn.com. This is a Plugged In project, as we've noted. Our staff is really passionate about teaching many a sermon, talking about technology, talking about how you can use it in your family's life for better, not for worse. [00:46:00] 

Obviously, all of our reviews are there, but we do a lot of talking on the blog. And we're able to let our personalities come out a little bit on that blog. And we also have a podcast that you can find on PluggedIn.com. We really enjoy the conversations that we have on our podcast. It is really free form. We all are very different. So that can lead to a lot of spirited conversations. 

But those are really healthy and fun and energizing. And I hope that the people who listen to our podcast enjoy them as much as I enjoy participating in them.

Laura Dugger: I love that. We will certainly link to all of those places in the show notes for today's episode. You may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Paul, what is your savvy sauce?

Paul Asay: It's a great question. I love that. [00:47:00] I'll be honest. I recently wrote another book sort of about my experience with depression. I've dealt with depression for most of my adult life. One thing that I have learned to do, one of the things that helps me practically every day of my life is I wake up and I think of three things to be grateful for, to thank God for. It can be really simple things. Hot water. When I take a shower, it's really nice to have hot water.  It can be for big things. How my parents raised me. The love of my kids. It can be those things that we can lean into. 

But I think when we start off our day showing gratitude, it changes the whole tenor of the time that we're dealing with so many problems, so many issues that come up with us every single day. To be grateful, to know that you have so many reasons to be grateful for. I think that that can really adjust the tenor of everybody's day. [00:48:02] 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you so much for being transparent as you share that. I just have experienced you as such a humble and gracious man to converse with. So thank you for teaching us how to steward this well in our own lives and help to steward this well for our family. I just appreciate you, Paul, and I want to say thank you for being my guest.

Paul Asay: Well, I have really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, Laura.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:49:04] 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:50:05] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:51:08] 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

225 Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley

225. Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Genesis 2:18a (NIV) "The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone."

 

Justin Whitmel Earley is a writer, speaker, and lawyer. He is the author of the award-winning books Habits of the Household and The Common Rule, though he spends most days running his business law practice. Through his writing and speaking, Justin empowers God’s people to thrive through life-giving habits that form them in the love of God and neighbor. His latest book, Made for People, delves deep into the profound impact of friendship and offers transformative strategies to combat loneliness. He lives with his wife and four boys in Richmond, Virginia, and spends a lot of time around fires and porches with friends. 

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How does becoming more like Jesus look similar to becoming more like a friend?

2. What are some questions we can ask our friends the next time we get together, in hopes of taking our conversation and connection to a deeper level?

3. Will you share your experience when you recognized friends are essential in the battle against evil?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Additional Recommended Episode from The Savvy Sauce:

90 Friendship with Drew Hunter

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

My guest today is writer, speaker, and lawyer, Justin Whitmel Earley. You may be familiar with his recent books, The Common Rule and Habits of the Household. Today, we're going to focus on the art and habits of cultivating friendship, which is the wisdom taken from his most recent book, Made for People. I also love the subtitle, Why We Drift into Loneliness and How to Fight for a Life of Friendship. [00:01:18] So I hope you experience the eternal value through this conversation now.

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Justin.

Justin Whitmel Earley: Thank you, Laura. I'm very, very glad to be here.

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by introducing your family to us, and tell us a bit about your journey that's led you to where you are today?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Sure. My family, me and my wife, Lauren, we've been married for almost 17 years now. 16, but going on 17. We have four boys, Whit, Asher, Colt, and Shep. They are 11, 9, 6, and 5 at the time of this recording. 

I'm a business lawyer by day, as well as a writer. The really short version of how I got there is, I actually felt called to be a missionary in China after I graduated law school, which was great. But then I had this calling experience in China where I felt the Lord actually pushing me to go back and live missionally in law and business. [00:02:24] So a big career change, but I felt like I was following the Lord into it.

I went really intentionally, but also quickly and intensely into law. I did really well in law school and got my dream job in mergers and acquisitions here in Richmond, Virginia, where I still live now. But I collapsed, I had a mental health collapse my first year of lawyering, where I was just becoming a mess of anxiety and panic and insomnia. 

This is a very condensed version of this, but it led to my first book, writing about spiritual disciplines and habits. Because in that year or so of struggle with mental health, I started to realize that while the architecture of my life was decorated with this Christian content of calling and my worldview, so to speak, was solid, the habits of my life, like the beams holding up that house, were just like everybody else's. [00:03:28] And it was only a matter of time before they collapsed. 

I started to realize that when your habits go one way and your head goes the other way, your heart will follow the habits. And I had really become converted to the nervous medicating lawyer through habit. That led to me really examining the spiritual disciplines and how much they matter, not just to our mental health, but to our overall walk with Jesus, our spiritual and emotional health. 

So that became a real passion of mine, thinking in terms of, how do I disciple the habits of my life to follow Jesus and to live missionally within law? That started my writing journey. There's more to that, but that's how I got into writing. And three books later, here I am today. I'm still a lawyer, as a business lawyer but I also write and speak and love, love doing that stuff.

Laura Dugger: Well, and a couple things there. I'm so grateful for your transparency, but also your obedience to step into this calling. [00:04:27] Because even completing this most recent book that's all about friendship, you share that one of your friends had encouraged you to be careful not to take on more responsibility than your life stage had space for. So as you're sharing your journey, I'm just curious, in this season of life with your four young boys, what does your personal writing schedule actually look like?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh, I love talking about that. My schedule now, it sounds... you know, when I try to say my job to people, it can sound overwhelming. But I now think in habits, and I no longer see schedule as a constraint to what would be a life of spontaneity.

This is how I used to think of it when I was in college and a missionary in China, and I hated structure. But now I really see it as the scaffolding on which you can build something wonderful. [00:05:27] So I think of my time and blocks and habits that are scaffolding to build a beautiful life.

For writing, I mainly think about my writing hour in the morning. I try to write when I get to the office at eight from about eight to nine. And sometimes that's actually writing. Sometimes that might be reading or researching. Sometimes it might be like editing an article or sometimes it might be true drafting. But before I start my law work around nine, I just generally... I would obviously say take or enjoy, like savor that hour where I feel like I'm allowed to write.

On the other hand, it becomes a real discipline when you're working on a manuscript because you get tired of thinking. You start to get a lot of self-doubt. Like, why am I even doing this? Nobody wants to read me. Like, who cares? Which is, by the way, spiritual warfare, I think, of the enemy talking to you and saying, you know, what you're called to do is actually not worth doing.

But during those times, it's a real rhythm of discipline to say, you know, no matter what, I'm going to write for this hour. [00:06:32] And slowly across time, you know, if you write an hour a day, you'll have a book or a couple by the end of the year. You know, if you read for an hour a day, you'll have a PhD in a couple of years.

It's just amazing things can happen in one hour every day when it's truly a habit that you put on autopilot. So that's what it looks like for me. Because most of the rest of my day is law and parenting.

Laura Dugger: Justin, I love that so much because it feels approachable if somebody else has that as a goal right now. I love you just cut through the excuses and built that as a habit. That's so great.

With your most recent book, I completely agreed with your theology on friendship. But I'd love for you to elaborate more on your claim from page 14 where you specifically write, "You need friends to be who God made you to be."

Justin Whitmel Earley: I've always sort of intuited that I would not be a whole person or a good person or even a safe person alone. [00:07:35] I've always sensed that I'm better around others and that I feel complete around others. I never knew how theologically accurate that was until I really started digging into what the Bible has to say about friendship.

Because I never really thought friendship was all that spiritual of a topic, honestly, until... Laura, honestly, it started to become so important in my life in my late 20s that I really started to think about it more carefully. I would say my favorite book of the Bible is probably Genesis and my favorite chapters are those early chapters. I think there's so much about who God is, who we are, what we were made for, what we weren't made for in those chapters.

One of the verses that I came to afresh was the idea that Adam was called "not good" because he was alone. There's all this kind of meaning that radiates from that verse. There's something to say about marriage. There's something to say about Adam's vocation and the world that he needed help. There's something to say about relationships, too. [00:08:37] 

When you look at that verse and think, Here's the setup of Genesis. God creates all these things and calls them good. And then He makes Adam in his own image, in the communal triune image of the Trinity, and He looks at Adam and says, this is before the fall, before sin has happened, that it's not good that Adam is alone. That "not good" is so striking in contrast with all the other good, good, good of the six days of creation.

It's odd, though, because Adam is with God. It's strange. Imagine yourself on a date with your husband and you say something like, "This is wonderful, except that I'm so lonely." Whoever's sitting across the table from you will be like, "Wait, but I'm here," right? And so it's interesting that God says... He's looking at Adam and says, despite the fact that I'm here with you, you have an aloneness about you. 

And that's what really struck the chord for me of saying, Oh, wait a minute. God made us such that we can't be who we were truly made to be until we have others around us. [00:09:43] We can't be who we're truly called to be, I don't think we can experience God the way that we're made to experience him until we experience him alongside others.

That is human community. That's marriage. That's family. But it's also friendship. It's the church. So it's just this deep abiding theme in scripture that we are not complete alone, which I think is, you know... this is longstanding orthodoxy. I'm not saying anything new, but I do think it's a minority report in our generation of Christianity. 

I think we've been influenced a lot by the Jesus movement and before the 70s, 80s Christianity, where there really wasn't emphasis on it's me and Jesus, quiet times are the apex of faith. And there's so much good stuff about that. I mean, deep personal relationships with Jesus and studying the scriptures, I will say amen to all day. It's just not the whole picture of the Christian life. And you can't be who God made you to be until you figure out who you are in community.

And that is what this Made for People book is all about. It's about understanding that at the deepest spiritual level, you need friendship. [00:10:55] 

Laura Dugger: Well, and you would say that that goes for all of us, regardless of life stage. I think a majority of listeners are parents with children still living in their home. So, Justin, would you agree that this does still apply to us in all seasons? And if so, what are some practical tips to make that happen even in those child-raising years?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh yeah. You know, I was sitting with a couple of friends on my back porch last night around a fire, and we were actually talking about this. We were talking about how lots of us growing up, college or like hometowns, high schools, it's just... it's a typical experience I think sometime in your teens or early 20s, where you realize the beauty of community.

And typically it's because something has stewarded you into that community. Maybe it was a great sports team, maybe it was a great church or good youth group, maybe it was a great college ministry, whatever it is. There are bright points in our life where we realize, Oh... you might not say it like this, but I think you would feel it. [00:12:02] "Oh, I was made for friendship. This is how life is supposed to be." And we look back at those times and we think, yes, yes, that's good. 

But what happens so often is your 20s slowly becomes this drift where you enter into what I call the current of American life, which is to become busier, wealthier people who used to have friends. All of us sitting around the fire last night, I think there was almost a 60-year-old, there was a 30-year-old, there was me, I'm 39, and then maybe there was a mid-40s. We had some age diversity, but all of us unanimously agreed that nothing is going to steward you into a life of friendship in our current American context.

It is absolutely a countercultural move if you want to swim against that current of loneliness. But we also all agreed that it was probably the most important thing in our walk with Jesus, as in, are we walking alongside somebody else, particularly in the parenting years? [00:13:04] And this is, I think, a lot of what causes people to suddenly realize that, is they get a couple years into parenting and they look up and they say, My life is so complicated and demanding. Like, I'm so tired. 

The last thing I want somebody to tell me is, like, you need to do something else, right? And so they're cautious or they might be, yeah, they might hesitate. Oh, well, you actually really need deep friendships in your life. But at the same time, they sense that. They sense, oh, I've lost something important.

I'm isolated, or I'm a person who used to have friends, or I have a lot of people around me, but nobody knows me anymore. Nobody's walking beside me. And I would absolutely look at anyone at any stage and say, Genesis is true. Still, you need other people to know God and to be who you were meant to be. But I would say particularly in the demanding stage of parenting, you need people walking beside you. 

Then if you agree with that... I think it's hard to disagree with it, but if you agree with that, then really we're just asking how, right? We're just asking, well, how does that actually work? [00:14:08] And that's where there's a couple simple habits. They do take intentionality, but they start to make friendship a real part of your life again. And those are worth considering. 

One of the habits is gonna be unsurprisingly from a guy who likes habits and schedules to really see the beauty of friendship that can grow through the seed of habit. And I tell people, think about devoting one of your 168 hours a week towards friendship. Really, that is not a lot. 

And I love this because everyone has an hour, even the most busy person. They could hand me their phone and I would open their usage stash and I would say, "Here, here, you were on Instagram for four and a half hours this week," or "Here, here, you watched half a season of Netflix shows."

There's time in our week where we're so exhausted that we just want to sort of veg out and be alone, particularly if you're somewhat introverted, which is totally fair. But friendship does take work. [00:15:08] 

I'd say last night, that was actually an interesting example. My wife and I were like, We have got a lot. I had a really early morning meeting. We had a bunch of stuff with the kids. But there was a hangout scheduled with a couple people. And I had to be like, "Man, I am actually kind of too tired for this." But on the other hand, every time I go to pray, I'm too tired to pray. Every time  I'm supposed to do a quiet time, I'm like, I don't want to do that. You know, all the most important things in life, you're going to feel some hesitancy, like, should I really do this? 

And I just want to say, friendship should be in that category of discipline where you say, you know, I'm going to do a coffee with this person each week, or I'm going to go to that accountability group or small group or whatever it is. And there's gradations. 

If you're not going to church, you know, there's your hour, start going. Start placing yourself in community. If you are going to church, but you're not going to the small group of the Bible study, then start going there. These are the ways we put ourselves in the way of community. But I think the richest version of this is to set up a rhythm.

I have this with my two best friends, Steve and Matt, where every other Tuesday night, we get together on our porch and just talk. [00:16:09] And it's just an hour or so, but it has such a wild impact on how I perceive myself. 

You know, when I'm able to confess to my friends how I really feel about life or what's really going on or the things I'm struggling with and I hear back from them that they're sticking with me, that they love me and God loves me anyway, there's this incredible thing that happens to you where you realize... and I think this is really important, Laura. So I want listeners to really think about this.

Through friendships, you realize that you can be fully known and fully loved at the same time. And that's why friendship is so important, because that is a way of re-believing the gospel again, because Jesus is the one who ultimately knows us fully and loves us anyway. 

And practicing that sort of full disclosure to be known in life with friends, even just through an hour of hanging out with people a week, to actually disclose your life to them and realize that you're lovable, even in your mess, is an incredible thing, because that's what we were made for. [00:17:14]  We were made to be fully known and fully loved. And an hour a week really gets you somewhere.

Laura Dugger: Again, this is so great. It's just a message of hope and people can problem-solve their own schedules to see how to begin these rhythms. 

Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and, if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. [00:18:12] 

While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

Laura Dugger: There's just countless benefits of friendship. But let's also discuss the responsibility that we have to also be a good friend ourselves. And as Christ followers, we're hoping to grow more into His image and likeness every day. So how does becoming more like Jesus look similar to becoming more like a friend? [00:19:14] 

Justin Whitmel Earley: That's such an important question to answer because it really gets at the nub of why I could claim that friendship is one of the most important parts of your spirituality. It's because Jesus said so. So John 15 is an incredible passage on this, and it's the place where Jesus says that I don't call you servants, for servants don't know what their master is doing, but I have called you friends because I've made known everything the Father has made known to me to you. And then He goes on to say that greater love has none of this, that someone lay down their life for a friend. 

Jesus is doing two incredible things there. One, He's describing His relationship to us as a friendship, like a shoulder-to-shoulder friendship where He's come down to us and disclosed everything to us.

And if you think about that, what is a good friend besides somebody who knows you fully, right? Like, who knows all your stuff and can laugh about it, who knows all your bad jokes but keeps coming to hang out anyway? [00:20:15] That idea like we disclose to friends, that Jesus has disclosed everything to us. He's made Himself vulnerable to us. 

And that's an ultimate sort of vulnerability, right? Because He went on the day after that John 15 speech that He gave to His disciples was the day of His crucifixion. So Jesus is ultimately vulnerable to us. And in that way, we are friends of God because Jesus befriended us, right? He is the ultimate friend.

When we think about the call of life, if you could sum it up, one way to do it would be to become more like Jesus, right? And if Jesus is the ultimate friend, then becoming more and more like Jesus necessarily means looking more and more like a friend. And what does that look like?

I talk about friendship in this book as one way to sum up the covenant kind of friendship that Jesus offers us is vulnerability and commitment, that we're actually willing to be fully known by our friends. And that's that first part of what we were made for, right? To be fully known. [00:21:18] 

Then the second part is to stick around, to be committed to covenant. That's the idea of saying I'll fully love despite the difficulties of it, right? So imitating Jesus's fully knowing nature and fully loving nature, that's I think where we become an echo of the gospel to each other. And that's why... You know, this isn't like a good idea in an age of loneliness, though it is, and America is suffering from a real epidemic of loneliness. It's not just a way to be happy, though it is. All the stats show that like real contentment in life, real happiness comes from relationships.

More than any of that, Laura, it's about looking more and more like the Jesus in whose image we were made. So if he's a friend and we're supposed to look more like Him, we got to look more like friends. And in that way, practicing friendship is a way of sanctification. It really is a way of becoming more like Jesus. That is why it's not just necessary, but also beautiful. 

Laura Dugger: Justin, I appreciate how you draw out different parts of Jesus as our friend. [00:22:21] I think of Him as the most inclusive friend. But then also, just what you had drawn out in the book about Jesus cooking for his friends and the fire being involved, is there anything else you'd like to add about that?

Justin Whitmel Earley: This would be hard to sum up in a podcast, but if people read the book, Made for People, I spend a later chapter describing Jesus' interactions with His disciples after He's resurrected and He meets them on the beach. It's just a really wonderful, wonderful passage to reread in the context of friendship. There's a lot of ways to read it, but one way is a friend that they thought they had lost who they meet again.

And they get one more grand day of hanging out with Him where He cooks for them and He talks with them, He counts fish with them. All these beautifully mundane things that we would do on a reunion weekend with our friends of rehashing old stories, of saying intentional words, of cooking for each other. [00:23:22] 

I just think it's so good for us to read the Bible like normal people and actually imagine it as a story that happened. Like there was a man named Jesus who cooked fish for His friends on a beach one morning. And we can learn so much from just the little ways He interacts with the people that He loves.

In a lot of ways, this book, the grand theme is trying to get you to be a little bit more like Jesus by being a little bit more like a friend. Because I think that's an aspect of His divinity and beauty that we often overlook. So I just encourage anybody to go read that chapter and see what you make of that story of Him cooking for His friends on the beach.

Laura Dugger: I echo that recommendation. Even just that simple takeaway, I think it just struck me of how hospitality is such a pleasurable part of friendship. And we really get that from our creator who when He was walking on this earth, He cooked for His friends. And likewise, we get to do that and share with them. [00:24:24] 

But then also taking all of this information and then thinking as we are disciple-makers, we hope to pass this all along to our children as well. So Justin, what are some practical ways that we can make our homes into the schools of love that you talk about in your book?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Well, my book Habits of the Household, which came before Made for People, is full of all these sort of different thoughts on that. So I'll give you some thoughts, particularly on this part of life, about showing our children friendship and teaching them friendship. But you're welcome to push into any other parts because I love talking about parenting.  I just love being a father. I love children, so happy to go into that. 

But one of the things, again, actually, Laura, that we were talking about last night, I was sitting with the three people who were joining me on the porch. We're all either educators, principals, or teachers. And we were talking about how important it is to help children learn as young as possible the habits and virtues of friendship. [00:25:31] 

And I think typically we're trying to teach children the virtues of it. I mean, typically we're trying to teach them to be nice to others, to be honest with others, to play, to talk, to greet, all these things. But I think increasingly modeling the habits of friendship is really, really important. It's becoming increasingly easy to go through school focusing mostly on your education and mostly where you'll move afterwards and not necessarily being stewarded by your parents into really meaningful social activities.

This can look like a lot of ways, but my kids play sports not because I think that they're going to make millions of dollars as professional athletes, but because it's an institution of intertwining them with teammates. And we approach it as such. 

I don't try to overburden them with travel teams and schedules and lessons to get them to be an incredible athlete as much as I say, "You support your friends here. Be with them in their wins and their losses. Hang out with them before and afterwards." [00:26:35] My kids are young, in between 5 and 11 now, but as they get older, it'll be like, Oh, we go to youth group, not just because I want you to learn theology and more Sunday school answers, though I do, but because friendships are there. I want to put you in the way of people. 

I will not give my sons smartphones until probably either 16 or 10th grade around there because I want to protect their formative years of embodied interactions so that they start to learn what it's like to just go hang out with your friends, what it's like to just be in a room and have nothing to do but talk to each other or play this game or that game. I think there are a lot of ways where parents need to think hard about modeling friendship.

My son Asher came to say goodnight on the porch last night, and I love that. He came to say goodnight, but he saw that I was hanging out with friends. He sees this often. [00:27:35] 

I'd like to think that he's going to grow up thinking, "Oh, this is what a man does. This is what a father does. This is what his mother does. This is what people, this is what Christians do. They hang out in deep conversation with other people." 

But also I want them to see that. But I also want them to be stewarded into those kinds of interactions. Again, like the theme of this book, no one is going to do that for you. The American current is vicious and roaring towards loneliness. 

You and your children will become isolated individuals with all sorts of mental and physical health problems if you do not fight against the current of loneliness and fight for a communal life. And part of the way we do that is we intentionally steward our kids into those kinds of interactions.

Laura Dugger: I'll just share one of my struggles with this. I love friendship, and I do crave that time with other peers and adult conversation, ideally that's uninterrupted. [00:28:36] Our four daughters are between four and a half to 10. I can struggle with guilt if I am taking away time from being with our daughters to then be with my friends. Do you have any wisdom to share with that?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can feel this too. I definitely think, in my experience, moms are a little bit more prone to this. I think dads can generally be more comfortable with the idea that, you know, I'm out working, or they don't need a ton of time with me. They need quality time at predictable rhythms. 

But I will say I too experience this, particularly if we have a stretch of nights where we're at a church meeting one night, they have a sports practice the next night, and then we have a friend hangout the third night. And I'm like, Oh, for three nights in a row, we've either done babysitters or somebody's, you know, leaving. And I think those are times where I see, Oh, yeah, my schedule is interrupting our family rhythm. [00:29:40] So I'm familiar with the feeling.

But when I look at times like that, I would probably say, what are the meetings or the activities that we can cut before I cut time with friends? Because it's sort of like... I would think of it like church. Like, I would never say, you know what? I need a little bit more time with my kids this week, so I'm just going to skip church. No. We go to church together. That's a family rhythm that's good for us, good for the kids. Despite the fact that we're going to be separated into different Sunday schools, and I'm not going to be with them, it's actually really healthy for them. 

I think probably what I know, at least that moms around me experience in my friend circle, is I constantly hear them say, you know, when I actually discipline myself to go hang out with other people or get a weekend away with the girls, I come back a better mother, a much more present mother, a much more caring mother, because I've had that really essential, important adult interaction time. [00:30:42] 

I know Lauren thinks this, and I know I think this. And I think lots of times we just need that encouraging reminder of one of the things your kids need from you most is for you to be a healthy communal person.

They don't need your constant hovering presence. They need your solid, quality presence of a person who is walking alongside other people. And I think it's just really helpful sometimes to say, Oh, that's worth being away for. You know, I'll come back. This is just an evening away or this is just an hour away. Kids really, really need that. 

I do think this is a whole different discussion, Laura, but we are trending generally in America as parents towards over-prioritizing the amount of time we spend with our children. There's actually a great book by Jonathan Haidt coming out about this this year, just the ways we don't take more risks letting our kids develop alone. [00:31:40] And that might be playing into it.

But at the risk of giving a really long answer here, I think it's totally understandable to feel that guilt, but it's really important to realize you need this to be a good mother and father. So go embrace friendship.  Your kids will be better for it.

Laura Dugger: Well, sincerely, thank you for that. I feel like one of my friends was saying when we were spending time with Chris and Rachel Allen, they said, how God oftentimes will speak to us through our thoughts, that's the indwelling Holy Spirit in us.

And even as you were sharing, and I feel like what you shared was truth, and some of this guilt is the false worldly guilt that's not true. And what I sense, I'm assuming it was the Lord speaking it to me, so I want to share in case this encourages anyone else. That I felt He was saying the gospel is for you too. And just how you're sharing, friendship is part of the gospel, and it models the gospel, and that is for each of us, whether we are a parent or not. [00:32:44] So thank you for that.

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh, what a good word. I'm glad. Thank you for listening and speaking and listening into what the Lord is saying. I think that is true. I think it's especially important for any of us when we sense guilt, right, when we say, "Oh, I would do this, except I feel guilty about something," to do what you just exemplified, Laura. Be quiet for a second and lean in and just ask the question, says who? Whose voice am I listening to that's making me feel guilty about that? Because that's not how God talks to you, right?

If you're feeling guilt, that's probably a good sign that it's somebody else's voice in your head. If you're feeling conviction or repentance, that very well may be from the Holy Spirit. But if you're feeling this sort of vague sense of, "I'm not living up or I can't do that," I encourage people to just pay attention. Whose voice is that in your head? [00:33:44] 

Because lots of times with stuff as important as friendship or other spiritual disciplines in our life, we're so good at making excuses about why right now we can't actually do that. And the enemy loves that stuff. He loves to whisper little excuses in your head. Like, you don't need to wake up early to read the Bible. You're tired. You can skip church this weekend. You don't really need to go hang out with that person. It might be awkward anyway. And those are precisely the things that God wants us to do to encounter Him and others. So listen to those voices.

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content.

And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.

Well, Justin, intentional questions just seem to be one really practical way that we can take conversations and relationships into a much richer and more enjoyable realm. [00:34:55] So I know that you mentioned some in your book, Made for People. Can you share just a few questions that we can ask our friends the next time we get together in hopes of diving a little bit deeper?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Oh, yeah. I love that. You know, some fun ones that I really like. What expression is God making when He looks at you right now? What do you think God looks like when He looks at you? Because sometimes I ask you, how's your walk with the Lord or how's your prayer life been? I think it says a lot about people when they say, what does God look like right now? 

One of the things that I just really encourage people to try to do is to be comfortable with being awkward. You know, there's always a turn in conversation where you get from talking about the weather or it's just so easy to talk about other people or public events. But the real mature relationships start to confess, divulge, really talk about themselves. And a fun way to get talking about your spiritual life is, what does God look like right now when He's looking at you? [00:36:00] 

Another question I love to ask my friends is, what are you worried about when you lay down at night? What do you think about? Because I know for me, if you're asking, how are you doing, I'm just sort of talking generalities. But when I lay my head down at night and the thoughts start scrolling, like all the insecurities, "Did I do enough today? Did I finish it? What happened with that?" That's just a place for me that is one of the truest versions of my mind is what's going through my mind as I lay down at night. And so I like to ask other people, what are you thinking about or what are you worrying about? 

Another one is, what are you hoping for? I love asking people, what are you hoping for? In this season, maybe in a new year or in the summer, whatever season you're in, gosh, I love hearing what my friends are dreaming about and what the good of their marriage they're hoping for or what the good of their family is or what refuge they need or what they're hoping for. So yeah, their thoughts, asking about God, what they're hoping for. I love all these questions. [00:37:04] 

Laura Dugger: Well, Justin, you share various powerful ways that God has come to you throughout your life in the form of a friend. Will you share your experience when you recognize that friends are actually essential in the battle against evil?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Yes. This is a story I tell in the last chapter of the book. I would encourage people to read it at length, but I'll give the short version here. I woke up one morning to a phone call from a friend telling me that a mutual friend was stuck in a hotel in Mali, Africa.

He was traveling for work and that terrorists had overtaken the hotel and were going around. They had shot the guards and they were going through the hotel, trying the rooms of guests and shooting unarmed guests. And my friend had been able to email us saying, "Pray for me" because the Internet had stayed on in the hotel. [00:38:02] 

My other friend saw it first. He called me, woke up, and we all... I just remember walking down to my living room that morning and laying face down and just starting to pray for, plead for the life of my friend. You know, it was one of those moments where all over Richmond, there were people like me and my other friends just, you know, on their knees on the ground praying for my friend.

We would later find out that at that time he was on his knees leaning up against the barricade he had built against the door as he felt a gunman try the knob. Praise God the barricade held. And when he did finally open the door, it was to a UN special ops rescue team that led him out of the building.

And so, yeah, it was just, you know... obviously a really difficult time for all of us, but it was also a wonderful time when he came home weeks later and we threw a big party at my house and celebrated that he had been snatched from the jaws of death. [00:39:04] 

That story for me... you know, for him, it's his own story in so many ways, right? There's obviously so much trauma and fear and difficulty there. From my side of the story, the Lord has really used it in my life to show me a lot about friendship. Not just that it's true when, you know, one friend is in trouble, we all go down on our knees together. But also it's become a spiritual metaphor for me because I think about my friend leaning up against the door where evil wants in. And that actually is what life is like.

You know, we're told the enemy prowls like a roaring lion. God tells Cain that sin is crouching at his door, but that he can overcome it, right? But thou mayest overcome it is one of the neat Hebrew translations. [00:40:08] I think so often about how we need other people in our life to beat back the heavy, heavy evil. We can't do that alone. We can't survive moments like that alone, physically or spiritually. We are in need of rescue. And obviously Jesus is the ultimate one who snatches us from the jaws of death. He's the ultimate covenant friend who comes for us.

But I think about this often as a metaphor for how we are Jesus in other people's lives, how we're commanded to go be like Him, to go to our friends in times of need and say, "I'm with you. I'm praying for you. You're not alone." It's a difficult story in a lot of ways, but it's been such a meaningful thing for the Lord to give in our lives, to show us the glory and the necessity of His friendship and ours. So I always remind people, you know, Jesus is the ultimate covenant friend. [00:41:10] You know, receive his friendship and then go extend it to the world. That is what being Christ-like is like.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so powerful. Just wrapping up this whole conversation, you can refer back to Habits of the Household or Made for People, but what is the one habit you want to charge us with when we complete this conversation today?

Justin Whitmel Earley: Ooh, well, my favorite habit to recommend to people is scripture before phone, because it is probably my favorite habit. That's for a couple reasons. It's the simple practice of saying, before you open your phone in the morning, read some scripture first. I, without irony, do it on my drive to work. I ask Siri to open the Dwell app, which is a Bible-reading app, and I listen to it on audio. [00:42:09] 

So it's not to say you can't use your phone to read the Bible, but it's this idea of keeping emails or social media or news or updates, just all the things that might say, Hey, this is where you're going to get your love or your justification today, like how much you're going to get done or how to live up on social media or what's going on in the world.

There's so many ways our phone tempts us daily to say, this is what's important about today. That's because phones are incredible habit-forming machines, right? The designers of our iPhones, as useful as they are, know the power of habit.

I like recommending this habit because it's sort of one of those keystone habits. In it is the theory of habit of saying, no, make a habit to look for the love of God before you look out to what you think you need in the world so that you can... once you experience the love of God, now you know you can go to the world to give it. [00:43:09] You're not going to the world to look for it anymore. That order makes all the difference. 

And people might say, well, yeah, but it's such a small habit. How could it actually matter? And I say, try it. Try it for 30 days. It is one of those things that, for me, is an example of how some of the smallest changes in our lives have the biggest effects. That's why I love recommending this habit because it opens the whole theory of that you should be discipling your life to Jesus through habit. Your habits are not neutral. Your smartphones are not neutral. The American culture is not neutral. They're all trying to take us somewhere. And we should be fighting to say the current I swim in is of discipleship to Christ.

That's going to look like swimming upstream to the world. That's going to look like moving against everything else. But that's what it means to follow Jesus. That's a very dear habit to me, and I'd recommend anybody try it.

Laura Dugger: Well, thank you for sharing. And this has been such an enjoyable conversation. [00:44:08] So if anyone wants to follow up after this chat and learn more from you, where would you direct us to go?

Justin Whitmel Earley: My website, justinwhitmelearley.com. And if you Google "Justin Earley Author", you'll find the right spelling. If you can subscribe to my email list there, and that is... I always tell people the best way to hear more, learn more. I send emails out a couple times a month just with thoughts or with book ideas or new books or things that are coming out. It's a great way to follow along. 

I'm also fairly active on Instagram, posting videos about friendship, about parenting, about habits. I have my own set of habits around how much is too much on social media, so I'm careful with that. But I am active on Instagram if people want to follow along there too.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. Justin, you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:45:10] And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Justin Whitmel Earley: My savvy sauce is that habits won't change God's love for you, but God's love for you should change your habits. And I hope that helps.

Laura Dugger: I love that so much. This time has been such a gift. So I just want to personally thank you for being so disciplined to take that hour to write this book. It was so beneficial. Upon completing it, first of all, I put it over on my husband's bedside table because I knew he would enjoy it next after me.

Justin Whitmel Earley: I love it.

Laura Dugger: But it also gave me permission to intentionally schedule in friend time. And so even when that felt luxurious, it just instantly paid off after being inspired by your book. So thank you for your inspiration and your reminders. And thank you so much for being my guest today.

Justin Whitmel Earley: You're so welcome, Laura. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. [00:46:10] Thanks for your podcast and everything that you do.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:47:12] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. [00:48:14] We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:49:16] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery

*DISCLAIMER* This interview includes some adult themes and is not intended for young ears.

 

Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Philippians 2:4 (AMP) “Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others."

 

Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker and the president/co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, ministry dedicated to reclaiming God’s design for sexuality.  Every Monday she hosts the podcast Java with Juli, where she and a guest sit down for coffee and honest conversation about relationships, sex, intimacy, pornography, singleness, and God’s design for our sexuality.

 

Juli is the author of ten books, including Finding the Hero in Your Husband, Passion Pursuit, and Rethinking Sexuality.  She and her husband Mike are the parents of 3 sons; they live in Akron, Ohio.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

 

Dr. Juli Slattery’s Website, Authentic Intimacy

 

Java with Juli Podcast

 

Books by Dr. Juli Slattery:

Passion Pursuit

Rethinking Sexuality

Pulling Back the Shades

Sex and the Single Girl

25 Questions You’re Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy

Surprised by the Healer

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfaeastpeoria.com 

If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release, so here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.

But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:22] The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit.

We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs. 

We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. [00:02:22] Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.

And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. 

My guest is psychologist and founder of Authentic Intimacy, Dr. Juli Slattery. 

Here's our chat.

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Juli. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, thanks so much for having me again. 

Laura Dugger: And for those who missed our previous episode, can you give us a glimpse of who you are and what you do?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I'm a wife of 25 years, mom of three sons who are quickly leaving the nest. I'm a clinical psychologist. My work these days is I run a ministry called Authentic Intimacy, and our vision is reclaiming God's design for sexuality. That practically looks like just helping people sort through where is God in the midst of what I'm struggling with, in my marriage, in my singleness, with sexual temptation, with the confusion of culture. [00:03:23] So really integrating God's truth with just the issues that we deal with everyday related to intimacy and sexuality.

Laura Dugger: Well, it's a very important work that you talk with people from all over the world about this topic. So from your wealth of knowledge in this area, what themes are you starting to see repeatedly?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, there are some themes that we've seen really since we started this work in 2012. And those probably won't surprise anyone. But there are things like how do we overcome differences in marriage related to sex? What if I have no sexual desire or my husband has no desire? We talk a lot about pornography and addressing that in marriage and just family. 

Sexual abuse recovery. Probably about one-third of women have had sexual trauma in their past and about one out of every six men. And so this impacts a lot of people. And so how do you heal from that and how that impacts intimacy? [00:04:27] 

Then in today's day and age, we're also getting new questions just related to gender fluidity and just redefining marriage. And what does the Bible have to say about all those things? 

So I'm definitely not bored. My job definitely keeps me on my knees and in the word of God and just really trying to give people biblical guidance through the kinds of issues we're facing today.

Laura Dugger: Yes. Even through your podcast, which is just one part of Authentic Intimacy, you have so many episodes. It just seems you never run out of ideas related to this topic. Is that right?

Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. You would think that we would. We've been doing the podcast now for, I think, like five years and we have over 250 episodes.  But we don't run out of topics because people are just grappling with these issues. 

Sometimes we'll just teach through a topic, but often we'll have a guest on that shares a story of just where God has brought healing and redemption. [00:05:29] Sometimes we just talk about our relationship with the Lord. I wanted all to go back to that. So keep going as long as the podcast is helping people and ministering to them.

Laura Dugger: Well, it sounds like it definitely is. I personally love the local church. I'm sure you do as well. So I hope that we're all doing our part both to build it up and protect it. What do you see the church getting wrong and getting right on this topic?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, you have to almost look at it from a historic point of view. Because I think most of us who have grown up in the church, any form of church, would probably say that my church growing up never talked about sex. And if they did talk about sex, it was awkward. Maybe it was with a very harsh or judgmental tone. Or it was a male pastor telling the wives that this is important in marriage. 

So we have a lot of baggage, I think, from the ways that the church has not addressed sexuality. [00:06:31] Or if we have addressed it, it hasn't been with God's heart. And so there are a lot of people that have a history with the church related to sexuality that actually makes them feel like God is the last place I want to go to talk about sex. And so we have a lot of undoing to get this right, I think, in our current generation. 

I'm glad to see that churches, by and large, are starting to address the kinds of issues that people are struggling with without making them feel shame. For struggling with pornography, for questioning things around gender, for brokenness in marriage, or sleeping around promiscuity, all those things that traditionally you never want to admit in a church, I think we're now starting to get realistic about the fact that this is where people live today and they need practical help. 

But there's also a really big divide happening in our country and also in our churches.[00:07:31] You know, is God primarily a God of love who just embraces wherever we are, allows us to stay where we are? Or is God more a God of truth that has these standards of righteousness and we have to live up to these standards of righteousness? 

There's a lot of sorting through those issues right now in the Christian church of how do we walk with both the truth of God and the grace of God. That's really my heart is helping churches and just individuals grapple through that tension.

Laura Dugger: I like how you said tension there because it's not just an easy one-time sermon that will solve all the problems, right?

Dr. Juli Slattery: No, not at all. Actually, one thing that I'm really encouraging churches to adopt is more of what I call a sexual discipleship model, where they're approaching issues of sexuality with a discipleship mindset. And discipleship is lifelong. It's this goal of maturity that we're all walking towards. [00:08:31] And it means really authentic relationships, doing life together, and dealing with the real-life issues as they happen. You know, let's respond to what just happened in the news or what's happening within our church body, instead of it feeling like sex is always talked about just from like a high and lofty perspective.

Laura Dugger: That's really good. Changing gears here a little bit, as believers, I think that we should have the most fulfilling sex lives in our marriages because we are intimately connected as well to the creator of intimacy. So are there any sexual pleasures or benefits you think believers are missing out on just because of a lack of education or maybe a belief in anything short of God's truth?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I see that all the time, particularly in a couple ways. First of all, there are a lot of Christians that carry shame around related to their sexuality because of things they feel guilty about that they've done in the past or they're currently struggling with, because of things they've experienced or even religious teaching that made them feel that sexual desire and pleasure is wrong. [00:09:42] And so I think that's one big barrier to overcome.

I think particularly with Christian women, like how do I enjoy this in my marriage when I feel like I've grown up thinking this is wrong and my desires are wrong? That's a barrier. But then I think also we have a very superficial, even within the church, understanding of what sexual desire is supposed to be.

I think we buy the Hollywood image of it that the best sexual pleasure is going to be like with two perfect bodies and it's on the honeymoon and it's just this natural ecstasy that happens. That's just not the reality for married couples. It doesn't usually happen right away where sex is fun or pleasurable. It usually takes work. There's obstacles to overcome. Our bodies are not perfect.

And so I think because we buy that lie that the greatest sexual pleasure is kind of this ecstasy of a moment, we miss the kind of pleasure that can be built on a journey over time, even as we together work through obstacles. [00:10:52] There's a much more profound intimacy, vulnerability, and pleasure for couples that will hang in there and be on that journey together instead of giving up when things don't go well right away.

Laura Dugger: You're right because doesn't the research validate that couples who have been together longer are more satisfied, even comparing it to Hollywood, things we wouldn't expect if they're having health issues or they've added children to the marriage, and yet there is this mystery of they're enjoying it more later?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, that's what the research does show, that the most sexually satisfied people are people that have been in a long-term committed relationship. Interestingly, those that have a strong faith, like a religious faith, are more likely to have a good sex life as they age. So, yeah, it bears out God's design. But we don't hear that very often. We're just bombarded with messages that sex is all about how it feels in the moment and how your body looks and how much you're compatible with each other but that's not what the research shows. [00:12:01] 

Laura Dugger: Okay, so now with that foundation, what do you recommend for all of the couples listening to experience more sexual pleasure?

Dr. Juli Slattery: One thing I'd recommend is really to take a long-term view of it. Think of it like you have this project that you're working on as a couple. Sometimes I'll talk about it being like a box of Legos. 

When you open up a box of Legos, you have a really cool design on the outside of the box, but you don't open up the box to get a finished product. You have to put all the pieces together and follow the directions, and it might take you a long time to build it. With Legos even, once you build, you tear it down, you build again.

Sex is a lot more like that. It can be very confusing, frustrating. It can cause conflict in your marriage right out of the gate or as you encounter difficulty. But if you continually remind yourself and your spouse that God has actually given us this gift so that we learn to love more intimately, so that we're learning to forgive, we're learning to be unselfish. [00:13:05] If you can have that perspective, then really any obstacles you have to overcome, whether they're emotional or physical or difference in desires or whether there's pornography or things like that that you need to work through, you see that even in the obstacles, God can be doing something really good between you.

Laura Dugger: I think there's two important points there, what you're talking about. First, that there likely will be obstacles at some point and that there's hope in that. Second, I've heard you speak with that Lego example before. I think it's such a great example. 

I remember you saying if you opened it up and you expected that picture that's on the box, and then you open it up and all these pieces just fall out, you'd be very disappointed.

Dr. Juli Slattery: For sure. I think all of us have experienced that. Like, wow, this isn't what I thought it would be. Even if you've had sex before you got married, a lot of married couples will say, once we got married, we can't agree or it's not fun anymore. [00:14:07] So, yeah, the obstacles are normal and you should expect them.

Laura Dugger: Why do you think that is, that couples, even if they had been sexually active before marriage, they come into marriage and it's not working for them? Any reasons or theories you have on that?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think there are all kinds of reasons. We can look at it from even a spiritual perspective that I really believe that Satan hates great sex within marriage. He does because it's a very powerful part of God's design and God's blessing. And so he'll do anything he can to make sex a source of conflict instead of a source of unity. 

But I think also we often come into marriage with the belief that our sex life is about me being pleased and about us having pleasure. We just naturally love that way when we're immature. We love the idea of you loving me well. 

In marriage, sex is just one of those areas that exposes our selfish perspective. [00:15:09] And it doesn't matter how, quote-unquote, compatible you are, you're going to hit a wall with your spouse, probably early on in marriage related to sexuality, where you wanted sex but he or she didn't. Or maybe your spouse wanted sex and you didn't feel ready. Or something was said that was hurtful. Or, you know, something was insensitive. You're going to run into something that hurts your sense of this was for me. 

Again, this is not just in the sexual relationship. It's all of marriage where you have to share your money, you have to share your time. And you start to realize that you've always defined love as how the other person is making you feel, and now all of a sudden you don't feel so great. I think that's a good part of growing. You know, people will say, hey, that's a bad thing. But if we never experienced that, we would just love very selfishly. We'd never move past that. [00:16:09] 

Laura Dugger: And I think what you do so well, even with your resources like your study Passion Pursuit, there's this healthy both/and approach because, yes, we are selfish. And that can come out in intimacy and marriage. And I would think especially for Christian women, sometimes we're too selfless, if that's possible.  Would you agree with that?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, absolutely. What happens if you're a completely selfless lover and all you want to do is please the other person? Well, one thing that happens is the other person gets to stay selfish. That's not healthy. That's not healthy for intimacy. In the long run, it's going to breed resentment.

I mean, I've talked to women who are 10, 15, 20 years into marriage, and they're resentful that sex has always been about pleasing him. And maybe in the moment they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my duty. I'm a good Christian wife. I'm being a good lover." [00:17:09] But in the long run, you haven't built intimacy and you haven't challenged your husband to learn to be a good lover. And so, yeah, it's not completely about you and it's not completely about him. 

As you learn to love each other, you actually find that it's all supposed to be leading to God, to understanding his love for us, to learning to love God more as a couple. And so I think it's dangerous. I'm glad you brought that up. It's dangerous to have the perspective that it's all about me or it's all about him. Intimacy is a mutual yielding to each other.

Laura Dugger: I remember, it might have even been in your resource, but oftentimes the biggest turn-on for a husband is a turned-on wife. So if she's only focused on being selfless, she could be doing the opposite of what she's actually intending.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're absolutely right. The biggest pleasures that a husband has is knowing that he's bringing pleasure to his wife and absolutely that she's into it, that she's available, that she's enjoying it. [00:18:13] And guys will tell you that, Hey, I appreciate it when my wife's just like, hey, this is for you. I'm just going to be pretty passive in this." They're like, "Well, thank you. But that's not really what I want."

You know, thankfully, God has designed men in such a way that they want to be great lovers. It's part of even their sense of masculinity and ego to please their wife. And so that's a great point, Laura, that you bring up, that even in this idea of I'm going to be unselfish, you're really even stealing a deeper pleasure from your husband if you don't let yourself enjoy it.

Laura Dugger: Let's speak just a little bit further to that wife listening. What encouragement would you have for her or what is the first step maybe in correcting that mindset?

Dr. Juli Slattery: It sounds like you may have gone through our Bible study, Passion Pursuit. Is that right? 

Laura Dugger: That's right. Yeah. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Okay. So, yeah, that Bible study actually is going to be really powerful in unearthing some of the things we believe about sex that really aren't biblical. [00:19:16] And I know I went through this in my own life through writing Passion Pursuit, ironically, just the idea that I'd kind of grown up with without realizing it, that sex was really about pleasing my husband and a good wife would please her husband.

But I never really considered that part of God's design was that a wife is initiating sex, that she's enjoying it. That's even part of a husband's challenge to figure out his wife, to unlock her sexually. 

So a great first step would be going through Passion Pursuit. But if you don't go through Passion Pursuit, get in God's word, read the Song of Solomon, and really think about why would God put such erotic poetry in the Bible? Why does this little book belong within God's word? And what does it say to me about what a healthy sex life is supposed to look like in my marriage? And what you start to realize is that lies just get planted in our hearts without us even realizing it. [00:20:18] 

Sometimes it is through trauma. Sometimes it's because we've done things in the past that we still feel guilty about. And sometimes it's just because the church hasn't taught us a healthy biblical perspective of sexuality. And so we just kind of grow up believing that God really isn't pro-sex, where the Scripture says He really is within the covenant of marriage.

Laura Dugger: Definitely. It is such a great resource. I can't recommend it enough. As always, we'll link to it both in our show notes and then on our website under the Resources tab. 

And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: I want to say thank you to our longtime sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. I hope that you've already downloaded the Chick-fil-A app. Because did you know that with the app you can skip the line and have food ready for you when you arrive? This is one of my favorite options when I'm taking my four daughters to Chick-fil-A East Peoria.

Download the Chick-fil-A app today and start earning points toward free rewards that are fully customized to your preferences and tastes. [00:21:23] Chick-fil-A was named as one of Glassdoor's best places to work in the nation. That's a huge honor.

One team member even wrote, "No comparison. This is a great job for a first job, extra money or career advancement. Such a loving environment, great management, and fair pay." Chick-fil-A believes that the local and involved ownership ensures fostering an environment where you are known, challenged, and cared for. 

So if you're looking for a wonderful place to work, visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria or fill out an application online today at cfeastpeoria.com. 

Did you know this podcast recently came under the umbrella of our new nonprofit, Savvy Sauce Charities? We launched Savvy Sauce Charities to resource loved ones to grow in intimacy with God and others. Our goal is to share joy through podcast episodes and monthly emails and bonus content. [00:22:23] 

It has been a learning curve, so I want to clarify something I've previously shared. I always want to be transparent with you, so I apologize if this has been confusing in the past, as I am learning so much through this transition into becoming a nonprofit. 

But as soon as we were recognized as an official nonprofit with a tax ID number, I shared how you could make a tax-deductible donation. Our attorney let me know that we are actually still awaiting the next step in the process, which is to receive our recognition of exempt status from the IRS, and that apparently takes many months. I was informed that contributions will still be retroactively tax-exempt, but we're still awaiting that official confirmation from the IRS. So I will keep you posted when that paperwork goes through. 

But will you prayerfully consider financially partnering with us to ensure that we can continue this work into the future? We've been blessed by donations in the hundreds and thousands and in the single digits, and we are truly grateful for any amount the Lord brings to your mind. [00:23:29] You have no idea how encouraging it is to learn someone has generously shared their offering with us. 

There's not a lot of feedback in this work, so receiving a donation or a kind letter refreshes us to press on, and my promise to you is to continue seeking God as I steward these finances.

I will share updates on our website, thesavvysauce.com, and you can find the "Donate" tab with all the details when you visit thesavvysauce.com. If you have any other questions, always feel free to reach out to this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. Thank you for partnering with us in this meaningful work. I am grateful beyond measure. 

Laura Dugger: Now, on the flip side, are there any parts of sexual intimacy that you believe God's Word makes clear are off-limits to believers?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, for sure. The most obvious thing is anything that involves another person. [00:24:31] We live in a culture that is talking about open marriages and involving other people in your love life in a physical way, which I think most Christians would understand is clearly wrong.

But where we get a little gray with it is, well, how about in my own imagination? Or how about if we as a couple look at pornography as a way of getting into sexual arousal? We've got to understand that whether you bring somebody into your bedroom in the flesh or in an image or on your computer screen, you're violating the purpose of sex, which is to celebrate a covenant promise between the two of you.

I believe Scripture's really clear that we work to make sure that even within our minds and our hearts, it really is a celebration of ecstasy and intimacy and vulnerability that only involves the two people that have made a covenant to each other. [00:25:31] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's a really great point. Like you mentioned earlier, Satan can run with these things. I think one lie that people believe is maybe if they're looking at pornography themselves, this only affects me.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah.

Laura Dugger: That's just not truth.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Or they'll justify it, that it's a shortcut. You know, it's easier to be aroused by looking at something really salacious. But again, what the research shows us is that the end result of that is you're not even going to be able to be aroused by being with your spouse.

You're not going to be able to enjoy the great gift that God has given you and your spouse because your brain has been tricked out to respond to things that are unnatural.

Laura Dugger: Yes. And that thing that you thought was really exciting at the time, that's good to play it out long term. That's wisdom. And to see that it can really devastate your sexual intimacy with your partner. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Mm-hmm.

Laura Dugger: Let's just do a quick general sex ed and cover a few things that you wish spouses knew more about each other. [00:26:32] Let's start with husbands. Juli, because you're an objective third party, what is some helpful information you can provide them with?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I'd say one thing, and this is probably something you already know but it's good to be reminded of. Your wife's sexuality is intertwined with every other aspect of who she is. There's some authors that wrote a book a long time ago called Men Are Like Waffles and Women Are Like Spaghetti.

They describe how men are like waffles because they can compartmentalize everything. Like waffles have those little boxes in them where women are like spaghetti. Every noodle touches every other noodle.

And this is really true with sexuality. Men are much more adept at just compartmentalizing a sexual expression. They can be aroused just by looking at something or one thought. Whereas women, in order for them to be aroused, they have to feel safe emotionally. They have to feel connected to you. They have to be able to shut off everything else that's going on in their mind. [00:27:33] Like, I've got to take care of the kids, and what if one of them hears us?

And so be sensitive to the fact that for your wife to really enjoy sex, you have to be ministering to her at every level. Helping her be rested, helping her feel safe, helping her feel connected. And that sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it's worth it.

And it's not just about helping your wife have a sexual expression. It's about really helping her feel connected to you and enjoying the whole experience, which is why I think a lot of women, particularly as they're raising young kids, they'll say, I just don't like sex because I never feel ready for it. And so, guys, if this is important to you, then remember that you have to think about how your wife is doing relationally and emotionally and physically and not just in the middle of the day or at the end of the day say, hey, how about we be intimate? Because you're likely to get a no if you haven't been aware of those other things. So that would be a big thing I'd tell husbands. [00:28:36] 

Laura Dugger: I think that's so good, and especially because you use that word "ministering", really that definition is meeting other people's needs. That really clarifies the next step maybe a husband can take in meeting the needs of his wife. Like you said, maybe it's doing dishes and putting the kids to bed or they can be creative.

Dr. uli Slattery: Yeah. Some of the most romantic things my husband has done for me have been just ways that he's served me outside of the bedroom. I remember when I was in the stage of motherhood that you're in with little kids, one morning waking up and the sun woke me up. And it's like maybe eight in the morning and I panicked because I was like, "Oh, I slept in like I overslept. I got to get the kids to school. And who woke up the baby and fed"? You know, like I immediately panicked. 

Then I realized that my husband had gotten up early and just done all that for me and let me sleep in. [00:29:34] I tell you, that was like, wow, where's that man? I want to show him some love. But just really understanding that courting your wife, you know, really inviting her to intimacy is about a lot more than getting naked. It's really about serving her in those other areas.

Laura Dugger: And such a practical example that you just gave one way of ministering would be helping her sleep because fatigue is usually the number one for a wife for killing sexual intimacy.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Isn't that funny? It's that simple, but we just don't have the energy. 

The other thing I would encourage husbands to do is to give your wife like a warm-up time. We call that foreplay. But really what I mean even more so is that because women have to be prepared emotionally and physically, if they know, hey, tonight we're going to try to be intimate, then they'll think that way.

They'll begin thinking about what they want to do with you and thinking about, Okay, I'm not going to try to get all the laundry done tonight and, you know, think about I want to take a bath or a shower this afternoon so I just feel clean. [00:30:47] All those things that you don't think are important, that's what gets a woman ready for intimacy. And so if you just feel like you always want to be spontaneous, you're most likely not to be met with open arms.

Like my husband and I have tried different things over the years, whether it's putting sex on the calendar so that I know, Hey, this is what I'm preparing for. Or even something that we would call a requisition order. Doesn't sound romantic, but it was kind of a joke between us where Mike would like say, "Hey, I'm putting in a requisition order. Like I would like to be with you. I want sex with you, but I know it's going to take time for you to get ready. So how about, you know, sometime in the next 24 hours we find a time to be intimate?"

Just that communication has made a huge difference in our marriage, instead of me always feeling like he was going to initiate and I was going to have to try to get out of it because I wasn't ready. [00:31:46] 

Laura Dugger: That's a great example. Before I had kids as a marriage and family therapist, I remember working in a private practice and talking about these issues and clients would come up with different ways to do this. And like you said, for wives, they usually do have to declutter their minds and it helps to be thinking about this.

So when it was a day that they knew they were going to try and be intimate with their husband, they would write TS on the calendar and just think sex. That would mentally prepare them and even help them store up enough energy throughout the day for that night to be special.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, you're right. I've heard all kinds of creative ideas. Like, you know, hanging a sign on the door or a certain text that's a code between the two of them. That might even change over time as your language with each other changes over time and your circumstance change. But learning to communicate is really, really healthy and will help avoid those continual misunderstandings or feelings of rejection related to sex. [00:32:53] 

Laura Dugger: And it can lighten it up in an appropriate way to make it just kind of fun and playful when you communicate that way.

So now we've covered a little bit of what we would say to husbands. Now, what about wives? What do you wish you could help them understand about their husbands?

Dr. Juli Slattery: I would wish that wives would understand that although husbands can be more compartmentalized with sex, to understand that sex still impacts every aspect of who they are. They don't always have the words for it. 

For example, we've already talked about this a little bit. Husbands, their sense of masculinity or the ego is really tied up in their sexuality. This plays out in a lot of different ways. For a man that has a higher sex drive, if he continually feels rejected by his wife, that chips away at his confidence, at his feeling of safety within your marriage. 

But that also plays out for men that have a lower sex drive. [00:33:53] I'd say probably 20%, 30% of marriages, a man's going to just naturally have a lower sex drive than his wife does. In that situation, both the man and the woman can feel very inadequate. Like, what's wrong with me? A woman will feel like, "All my friends are talking about how their husbands always want sex. My husband never pursues me." And she can feel rejected. 

But what adds to it then is the man starts to feel less like a man. Like, "What's wrong with me? Because I can't enjoy this. I don't desire this like other men do." 

So really understanding as you address sexuality within your marriage, that a man's confidence, his sense of ego, his sense of masculinity and self is really tied up in the whole topic of sexuality. And being sensitive to that, whatever issue you're addressing. Being careful not to shame him, but just to embrace who he is and walk with him on that journey. [00:34:53] 

And that's the other thing I would say is that a wife is really a teammate for a husband in every area of life.  You know, in Genesis, God said it's not good for a man to be alone, so I'm going to make him a helper. Or the Hebrew word is ezer. Like an empowering person that walks alongside him.

I think it's important for a wife to realize that most men face a really challenging journey of trying to honor God with their sexuality. And you want to be his teammate in that. To help him know that he doesn't have to keep secrets from you. That you want to understand where he's tempted. Not that you're his accountability partner, but that you share this part of his life with him. And it's not like he has to be isolated.

So those are two things I'd encourage you to consider as a wife.

Laura Dugger: I think those are great. Just thinking back, I've heard you speak before and there is a really practical example. [00:35:52] I just love how you answered someone's question this one time. She had asked why her husband didn't like her rubbing his leg to get him in the mood. And you just frankly said, "He probably wishes you were rubbing something else."

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. That's practical. But it is a difference between men and women. Women generally like indirect stimulation that makes them feel safe and comfortable and gets them going. Men like direct stimulation in one place. And they're happy to just get right started there. So those are some of the differences that most couples are going to have to navigate.

Laura Dugger: And once we understand some of those gender differences, I think it can counterintuitively pull us closer together and actually make our sex lives more satisfying. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think those gender differences were part of God's original design. It's not like the gender differences appeared with sin. [00:36:52] Adam and Eve were different from the beginning. And there's a lot of reasons why we're different, but one of them is, again, because it forces you to have a larger view of what sex is about in your marriage. That it's not just about me always getting my needs met. It's about us on a journey together learning what it is to love.

Laura Dugger: Well, I love encouragement. So what patterns are you seeing in couples who are getting it right as it relates to their overall intimacy in marriage?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, you know, I get so much encouragement through what I'm doing at Authentic Intimacy. And it's so fun to run into people two or three years after maybe they've been to an event that we've done or they've gone through Passion Pursuit or another book. And they just will say, like, "God has completely changed this area of our life. We used to fight about it all the time. Now it's just really become a joy. And we're learning to love each other in such profound ways." [00:37:53] 

Just being able to hear stories of couples that have overcome infidelity, pornography, you know, just all kinds of differences, sexual pain. And so I get to hear encouraging stories a lot of what happens when a couple really yields this part of their marriage to God. And is on that journey of healing.

Laura Dugger: There may be some effort they have to put into that or maybe go see a third party, and like you said, getting in God's word. But it is so worthwhile.

Dr. Juli Slattery: It is. And it's a journey. You're right. It doesn't just magically happen. You do have to work at it and pray about it. And at times get some outside help. But it's worth it.

Laura Dugger: Well, and if you are one of the keys for them getting this outside help, can you just tell people where they can find you online?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. You can find out everything we're doing at AuthenticIntimacy.com. You'll see books, Bible studies, our podcast, blog events. You know, just however you can connect with our ministry, you'll be able to find that there. [00:38:55] 

Laura Dugger: Juli, I just have one final question for you. 

Dr. Juli Slattery: Uh-huh.

Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question today, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Juli Slattery: Wow, this is going to sound very churchy, but it's the first thing that comes to my mind is just spending time with God. I can't do anything that God asked me to do without spending time with Him, including love my husband. Sex within our marriage has never been an easy thing for us.

And so for us to walk with integrity, for me to be a woman of integrity, for me to teach my kids, really all depends on God's healing in my life and getting His perspective. So if there's one piece of advice I'd give is make an effort, even if it's just 15 minutes a day, to spend time with God and get His perspective on everything, including sexuality. [00:39:56] 

Laura Dugger: That's great wisdom. I know I've followed your work for years, Juli, and I admire your courage just to help others in this realm of pursuing sexuality the way God intended. So thanks for being my guest today.

Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, thanks so much for letting me share. It's been a joy.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:40:57] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:42:03] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring, Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:04] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.