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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Tuesday Jun 25, 2024
Tuesday Jun 25, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.
Bonus Re-Release: Enriching Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV) “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
What are a few benefits of orgasm?
-
What is the treatment plan for clients who have never experienced an orgasm?
-
What is Perimenopause?
Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities. Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life.
Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society’s new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being.
In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.
Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website
North American Menopause Society
Women's Sexual Health Information
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Savvy Sauce Charities
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jun 24, 2024
Monday Jun 24, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.
Top Ten from 2023: #7 Enriching Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
Hosea 4:6a (KJV) "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge,"
Questions We Discuss:
-
What type of sexual dysfunctions are common for your clients to experience?
-
What all can you teach us about hormones?
-
Will you educate us on hormone therapy?
Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities. Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life.
Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society’s new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being.
In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.
Websites Mentioned:
Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website
North American Menopause Society
Women's Sexual Health Information
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Ring Bandits (Use code SAVVY at checkout to receive 20% off your order!)
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jun 17, 2024
Monday Jun 17, 2024
Top Ten from 2023: #8 School Series: Benefits of Private High School with Luke Baker
Proverbs 9:9 (NIV) "Instruct the wise and they will be wiser still; teach the righteous and they will add to their learning."
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
In your private school setting, what is something unique you get to teach?
-
What sets apart private high school from other schooling options?
-
For parents deciding which school option is best for their family situation, what are a few of your favorite reasons to recommend they choose private high school?
Luke Baker is an Adjunct Professor at Bradley, Illinois Central College, and former Social Studies Teacher at Peoria Christian School in Central Illinois. He is a veteran teacher, world traveler, active club sponsor, and passionate scholar of history.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jun 10, 2024
Monday Jun 10, 2024
Top Ten from 2023: #9 School Series: Benefits of Public School with Kelsey Kirk
-
What is something you teach that is unique?
-
What systems have you put into place in your own classroom that have been most beneficial?
-
From your perspective, what are a few benefits of children attending public school?
Monday Jun 03, 2024
Monday Jun 03, 2024
Top Ten from 2023: #10 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof
Luke 16:10a (NLT) If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- As a working mom, what perspective and wisdom can you offer us parents?
- What are a few core values or prayers that you find to be helpful as a parent?
- Will you speak to the importance of independent play?
Cynthia Yanof is an author, blogger, and host of MESSmerized Podcast. She loves Jesus, her family, foster care, and having as many friends around her as possible. She is married to Mike, and together they have three kids ranging from college age all the way down to first grade. (No, that’s not a typo.)
She’s excited to introduce her debut book, Life is Messy, God is Good.. You can follow her on social media @CynthiaYanof, and the Pardon the Mess podcast is available on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual places.
Cynthia strives to be authentic, vulnerable, and full of laughter as she encourages people on the messy roads of life.
Connect with Cynthia:
@cynthiayanof
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Spark Academy (Mention The Savvy Sauce to Unlock Your Special Discount!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday May 27, 2024
Monday May 27, 2024
235. Stories Series: Jesus, Our Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 32:1 (KJV) "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered."
Kent Heimer is a Jesus-follower and grateful recipient of God's love and forgiveness. He is happily married to Jan, father to three married adult children, and grandfather to 12. Professionally, Kent is the President at Heimer Construction Company in Taylor, Missouri.
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
When you were 13, a significant event occurred. Will you share that story with us?
-
What did life look like, both before and after you put your faith in Jesus Christ?
-
Even after you became a Christ-follower, you still had troubles in this world. Will you pick up your story again?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Kent Heimer is my guest today, and he is a second cousin to my mom. They grew up near one another, and they even attended the same church. God has interwoven our families, and even to this day, Kent and his wife, Jan, remain dear friends of my parents.
I first heard Kent's testimony as a teenager, and it has never left me. At that time, I was not yet walking with the Lord, but his story left an eternal impression on me. I am just humbled he is willing to share it again today. Here's our chat. [00:01:19]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kent.
Kent Heimer: Laura, I am so humbled to be able to join you today. Laura, you talked about Savvy Sauce, I'd just like to share with you a little bit how I do life.
I love Psalm 32:1, where it says, "Blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered." So as I do life, I am so thankful to be able that when people ask me how I'm doing, as a believer in Jesus, I am always blessed.
Some days I'm happy, and some days I'm sad. So I never want to lie when I'm not doing well, and I don't want to tell somebody I'm doing okay, but I am safe to say that I am always blessed. [00:02:24] And it has opened the door to share the gospel so many times, countless times in my life when people say, "How are you blessed?" And they open that door, and I get to share with them Jesus.
Laura Dugger: And Kent, really, as long as I've known you, which I guess has actually been my entire life, that is so true every time I hear you respond that way. Our families go way back. And as you know, my dad is one of 10 children, and my mom is one of six. So I've always been fascinated by big families. You grew up in a large family. So will you tell us a bit about your upbringing?
Kent Heimer: Yes, I'd love to. I had the most wonderful parents, Laura. There was eight children in our family. There was three girls and five boys. [00:03:25] We were a typical family. Mom and dad loved Jesus, and that was their heart's desire, that their children would love Jesus also.
We didn't go to church every Wednesday night. We were raised on a farm, and with the busyness of farming, that didn't always work. But on Sundays, you could always find us at a small rural church there at Taylor called the Apostolic Christian Church.
Mom and Dad, as I said, were wonderful parents. They did go through some heartache and pain. I have an older sister, Linda, that only lived less than a month. She had spina bifida, so she went home to be with Jesus. I have never met her, but I certainly look forward to that time when we will be together forever and ever. [00:04:29]
Like a lot of farm families, Mom and Dad went through some very difficult times, but it was encouraging for us kids to see their faith, even when they went through those difficult, difficult times.
I remember in 1959, we had a large barn there on our farm full of a lot of hogs and cattle and straw and hay and equipment, and that night that barn burnt. I'll never forget the faith that I've seen in my mom and dad as they went through that difficult time. Then in '61, they lost another. We lost our farrowing barn there on the farm to fire also.
Then '64 to '66 was a rather difficult time for Mom and Dad. My dad had an accident there on the farm. [00:05:29] He was building a new fence, and it was raining, and he was setting a large corner post without the use of a tractor and a loader. He was trying to bear hug it and set it by hand and slipped on the wet dirt, and that post fell on him such that the next two years, he was in lots of pain and had two back surgeries.
So it wasn't easy there on the farm for my mom and dad and with seven of us children then at that time living, but they always pointed us to Christ.
Laura Dugger: Kent, when you were 13 years old, a significant event took place. Will you share that with us now?
Kent Heimer: Yeah. It was May 13, 1966. [00:06:30] A good friend in school named Dean invited me to stay overnight with him and set some lines out in the river and fish for large catfish, and I caught the biggest fish I'd ever caught before. It was a five-pound blue cat, and I was so proud of that.
So the next morning, I couldn't wait to show up to my dad. So that next morning, May 14, 1966, was a Saturday, and Dean's mom took me home, and my mom told me that my dad and the hired man were down at the bottom of this big hill, and they were working down there and that I could go show that fish to them, but first I needed to go to the barn and help my Uncle Gerald load a load of straw.
So all of us, my brothers, our seven kids, our ages at that time would have been... the youngest would have been six, and the oldest would have been 18. So the five of us boys were old enough to help load the straw. And then we loaded up in their truck, and I had a five-gallon bucket with that fish in it, and I couldn't wait to show my dad. [00:07:59]
So we went down the hill. Our farmstead was up on kind of a large high hill. And went down to the bottom of the hill, and I was in the back of the truck with some of my brothers, and my oldest brother, who was 18, was driving the truck.
As we got closer, I saw that they were resting. The man that was hired by my father to help him and my dad, it looked like they were resting, and I thought that was kind of peculiar. I hadn't seen my dad rest on the ground like that.
Well, my dad and the hired hand were driving a sandpoint. A sandpoint is a perforated pipe that we had a lot of hogs, and because of disease, my dad would like to move the hogs around on the farm. And being only five miles from the Mississippi River and kind of a sandy subsoil, that water table would move, permeate, and move through the ground, and you could drive a perforated pipe about 25 foot into the ground, and you would just use a pulse tow driver to drive that in the ground, and then you could put a shallow well pump on it and get water for the livestock. [00:09:29]
Well, it had rained the night before, and the ground was moist. It was a very humid day on that May 14th day. So my dad and the hired man were putting a section of pipe onto the sandpoint. They raised it up. My dad, I know he knew that close by was a real electric line running. I think he felt he was far enough away from it to hoist that section of pipe up, but that day, because of the conditions, that electricity arced over and hit the pipe that my dad and the hired man were holding, and both of those men were electrocuted when we got there.
As I look back at that later, God was really merciful because the pipe wasn't laying against the line and still touching my father or the hired man because some of us children then could have got electrocuted at that time also. [00:10:46]
But it was an unbelievable sad day in the life of our family. We went up and told Mom, and she... I'll fast forward about an hour here, but she said she would not want to go down and look at the bodies. But she gathered the seven of us children in the living room, and she promised us that God would be with us and that God would help us through this very, very unfortunate event in our life.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And between both families, many children were left fatherless that day. Kent, your mom, Naomi, just has always had the best reputation. I know my mom has said that she was one of the sweetest women she ever knew. [00:11:53] Mom even said she considered her her second mom growing up. So that is remarkable that within an hour of that tragedy that she was still clinging to God's promises and teaching her children the same. But how did your sweet mom continue to support your family?
Kent Heimer: She was the most godly person that I've ever known. My dad didn't have any life insurance, so I would just like to say, please, if you're listening to this and you're a young couple out there, please have some term insurance, life insurance or something if a tragic event would happen in your life.
But because of that, Mom worked two jobs at that point. [00:12:56] She would get us kids up, get us on the bus, and then close by was a motel, and she would go there and make beds, clean rooms, and then she went to the local high school where us kids went to school, and she was a cook there. So she would work before and after that noon hour, and it was her desire to get home in time to get us off of the bus and to be able to be with us.
So Mom never complained. I never heard her once ever, ever, ever blame God or be angry for what had taken place. She one time told me that she was glad that she had a large family that would keep her busy, and so she was very, very busy. But she said that often the busyness would keep her mind off of what had taken place with our family there.[00:14:14]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Well, and even for each of you kids, you said the age range was approximately 6 to 18. [00:16:20] Do you remember how you all processed this, even emotionally or spiritually, at the time?
Kent Heimer: You know, I wish at that time... our church now has a counseling service, but I really wish that us kids and my mom could have had some kind of grief counseling. That tragedy was acted out in different ways by us children. I think each one of us processed it in such different ways.
A lot of the younger children didn't want to go to school for a time. I don't know if they thought that they would come home and mom would be gone too. [00:17:20] I'm not sure what those little minds were thinking.
You know, being 13 at the time, I was the oldest young man at home. I had one older brother, and he was a freshman in college, so he was gone. So it wasn't easy to kind of be the man of the house at 13 years old because we had lots of chores and a lot of work to do every day before school. And then after we'd get home from school, we had lots of chores and things to do outside, the things that dad and the hired man used to do. So it was a struggle.
I'd have to say personally, I was angry at God also. The hired man had five little boys, and again, there was seven of us children. [00:18:25] So 13 years old, you're asking the question, why? I don't think that that's any different probably than anybody that goes through that situation at a young age would ask the question, why?
And now, as I look back in the rearview mirror of life, I have learned that all things work together for good to them that love the Lord and to them who are the called according to His purpose. But when you're going through it at the time, it is not easy. But I just praise God here today that I had a mother that didn't bail on us kids when the times got hard, but she trusted in God through this unfortunate situation. [00:19:25]
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I can't even imagine all of even just the intense work that you're talking about that's now shared among all of you. Were there any other memorable trials just in that unique environment, having a single mom now with a large family?
Kent Heimer: Well, things were tight. She always told us that... when Christmas came, it was a time that I dreaded because some of the kids in my Sunday school class would always be talking about the gifts that they had been given. And at home, you know, we weren't angry at Mom. We just knew that she told us that she couldn't do that, do the gift giving at Christmas time. [00:20:25]
But Laura, I am here to tell you that that's why I encourage people to be a part of a church family. Get plugged in to a church family like my mother was. Some of the church, when you at least expect it, would be there at the door and have a gift for all of us children, one gift to share or sometimes a gift for each one of us so that we too might know... you know, the real joy of Christmas is Jesus and not gifts. But when you're young, gifts mean a lot. And so there was some at church that made sure almost every year that we too had a gift.
Laura Dugger: What a sweet church it is. That's the same one that my mom grew up in and where my grandparents were as well. [00:21:27] I didn't know that part of the story that that's one way that they came around you. So that's impactful.
Were there any other memories that you have where God does promise He will be close to the brokenhearted? Were there times that you experienced that in your youth? Or is it more so as you look back?
Kent Heimer: That is a great question. Youth was just hard. It's hard for me right now. I mean, after I asked Jesus in my heart when I was 19, from then on, I could see more clearly. But up until that time, life was a blur. It was cloudy. It was, you know, what's going on? Why do some have so much and some so little? I've got some wonderful, wonderful memories but I got some memories that are not as good also, you know, during that time. [00:22:34]
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. You had lived through so much trauma and not having a personal relationship with Jesus at the time. Even though your family was plugged into a church, it sounds like it wasn't a personal decision and surrender yet.
I love how you bring up that at 19 there was a change. So can you take us back to that time of life and share what it looked like for you before and after you put your faith in Jesus Christ?
Kent Heimer: I was one of the youngest kids in my high school class. So I was 18 when I went to my freshman year of college. And I went to a local junior college at the time. My mom asked if I would be willing to go closer to home so I could still help at home. And I did that. [00:23:36]
And then my sophomore year, though, I found that some of the credits would not be able to be transferred. And I wanted to get a four-year degree in industrial education, industrial arts, to be able to teach that, after my dad passed away, and ultimately we had a dispersal sale and sold the livestock, so then mom encouraged us boys to get a job off the farm.
So I started working for a local contractor and building houses. I just loved seeing a stack of wood and at the end of the day, to see what you could do with a stack of wood, you could build the walls and set the trusses.
So I wanted to get a degree to teach if I ever got disabled in the construction world. But I thought I wanted to have a construction company was my goal. [00:24:39] So I went to Truman State University, which was about an hour and 15 minutes west of home.
It was up there that I did something my mother asked me not to do and I had to repent for that and tell her I was sorry. But I told her I was thinking about joining a social fraternity and she said, "What's that about?" And I only told her the good, didn't tell her the bad.
It was during hell week of pledging a social fraternity there at college that I was not happy that one of the active members of the fraternity was picking on one of my pledge brothers. And I took offense to that. But anyway, through it all, he was a black belt and I got hit. I got hit hard and I got 30 some stitches alongside my nose and down, cut my lip through. [00:25:44]
So they took me to the hospital and Laura, it was that night that I started waving the white flag of surrender. It was that night when I heard Him. The doctors, they had a nurse call Mom, and I still remember it was 2 or 3 a.m. in the morning and they said, "We have your son Kent here and we need to suture him up and we need your permission to do that. He's been in a sled riding accident." Well, that was a big lie. That's what the active members told the doctors had happened to me. I'd hit a tree sled riding.
So I was sitting there and they had my face covered up in just a slit where they were going to stitch me up. And what the doctor couldn't see, the tears were rolling. I knew I wasn't happy with where my life was at that time. [00:26:49] And because I had went to that Apostolic Christian Church all my life, when I was in college there at Kirksville, I didn't go home every weekend, but I went home some weekends and I did always worship with mom. But I knew enough to know that I was far from God and I needed Jesus.
So fast forward just to not long after that is when I let my mom know that I wanted to follow Jesus the rest of my life and I was sorry for my sin. I told Mom where I had erred and come short of the glory of God. And she was gracious as all mothers are and forgave me. Jesus has turned my world upside down, and I have never been the same since that day when I was 19 years old when I invited him into my heart. [00:27:59]
Laura Dugger: That is such an incredible testimony. And I think of the many prayers of a mother and how we say whatever it takes, Lord, to bring them into your fold.
Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce.
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Even though life changed and you had this deep abiding peace now, God still tells us that in this life we will have troubles, but we can take heart He's overcome the world. But yet, even in your life, more loss was still ahead. So will you pick up your story again?
Kent Heimer: Yeah. I'm so thankful that God brought my wife, Jan. She was from our church in Roanoke, Illinois, into my life, into my heart. It was 1976 that we got married.
So I had the four-year degree and I had student-taught, but I really wanted to start a construction company. So the Monday after I graduated from college, I started our construction company with one employee. [00:30:02] And we were building houses and it was going good.
And then the late 90s and the early 80s, anyone who lived through that time will remember the 16% and the 18% interest. Laura, my phone quit ringing. During that time, I had, I think, three other employees and I wasn't able to give them work because no one can build a house with 18% interest.
But I shared with my wife, we had one piece of equipment, we had a backhoe at the time and we had a house on some acreage, and I shared with her, Laura, that we might have to sell the backhoe first. And then if that didn't stop the bleeding, then maybe we'll sell our house that we were making monthly payments on. But I said, maybe we'll keep a little section of the ground and we'll put some kind of a modular home on that and we will weather the storm. [00:31:06] Because we didn't know at that time how long the high interest rates would be.
For any married couple out there, she said words to me that gave me so much hope. She said, "I could care less about the backhoe and I could care less about this house. All I want is you. So whatever we got to do, as long as I got you, we will be okay."
So what that did, that gave me the confidence. It wasn't long after that I heard locally there that there was a commercial project going to be built. I found out how to possibly bid on that project. And the rest of the story is we bid on that project and we got it.
So starting at that time, our construction company then started doing more industrial commercial type work. It seems like even with the high interest rates that big companies continue to do work and continue to build. [00:32:12] So it was such an incredible blessing to go from residential to the commercial building. And God really, really blessed us.
But I can't say enough about the faith that my wife had in me in making that decision. You know, if she would have slayed me with her tongue for buying the backhoe, or, you know, we shouldn't have taken the debt when we got the house and the acreage. But she didn't. She said, "As long as I got you, we will be okay."
So we went along and we grew the construction company and we got up to, at that time, around 30 employees. But 1993 and '94, there was a six-month period there that was hard for us as a family. Jan and I are blessed with three children and they would have been like eight, nine, and ten or nine, ten, and eleven. They were close together. [00:33:22] But we was at church on a Wednesday night and we got a phone call to get home that our business was... Well, they actually said there was an old barn out away from the house. They said, "You got to get home. There's an old barn... Your barn's on fire." Well, when we got home, our business sat behind our house and it was in flames. And it was, I think, a five-alarm. There was five different fire departments. It was a major fire.
So it was difficult that we'd worked hard with our employees' help and it was going up in flames. It was, I think, 5 a.m. when the last, 4 or 5 a.m., the last fire department left. And it was toast. It burnt to the ground.
I went in to go to bed, even though I know I wouldn't be able to sleep, and I pulled the covers down, and my son, he's the youngest of our three kids, had taken a piece of 8 1⁄2 by 11 paper and torn it. So it was torn and jagged. [00:34:41] But he made a cross and he laid it on my pillow. So when I pulled the covers back, there was a cross laying there that he had torn with his little hands and basically saying, "Dad, keep your eye on the cross." That was an incredible, incredible blessing that night.
Just a few weeks after that, one of our employees had an accident with our crane. It's kind of hard to explain, but if anybody knows anything about cranes, if you want to reach higher, you fold around a jib, which is stored against the main boom. You put a pivot pin and you fold the jib around and you put another pin in to lock it in place, and you're able to lift higher at a higher elevation.
An employee forgot to put the pivot pin in before he was going to pivot the boom around, and it fell on him and crushed his head. [00:35:41] So that employee was critically injured. I just praise God that his life was spared and he lives yet today. But, you know, that was hard with OSHA getting involved and the place where we work, very concerned about what had taken place.
Then early in '94, it was 2 or 3 a.m. in the morning, and got a call from Florida where my mom was vacationing. And they said, "Is your mom named Naomi?" And I said, "Yes." And they said her last name, I said, "Yes." They said she's been in a real bad car wreck, that she's on life support and you children should try to get to Naples, Florida as quick as you can.
So I called my siblings and it was a miracle that the airline worked with us and got us to Naples, Florida. [00:36:46] Unfortunately, my mom and... my mom remarried after being a widow for many, many years. So it had been my step aunt was in the backseat with her. So my stepfather was in the front. My step-uncle was beside him and then my mom was in the back with my step-aunt.
And a semi-driver made a bad mistake that night. He wanted to turn around a semi. He had a car carrier behind him on a two-lane road, which is you don't do that. But he had tried to do that. And he got his tractor... when he was turning around down in the ditch and got stuck. So the trailer was perpendicular to the road and there was no marker lights on the side of the trailer. And so the car my mom was riding in went into the side of that car carrier, and through it, my mom and my step-aunt both went. They went home to be with Jesus.[00:38:00]
Laura Dugger: Wow. So this is a time where your children are all approximately 10, 11, 12, you're in the midst of business struggles, and here, one of the other dear women in your life, your sweet mom, suddenly passed away.
Kent Heimer: Yeah, it was... You know, I've been in church leadership, Laura. So I've learned that if you get a call late at night, it's either real good or real bad. It's real good if somebody wants to give their heart to Jesus and wants to talk and counsel. And it's not good when there's tragedy, which often happens at night.
Yeah, that was... I'd like to give the testimony that I didn't handle that perfectly, and I'm sure none of us siblings did. [00:39:01] But when you know Jesus and been walking with Him and had seen how faithful He was through our fire, through the employee that got critically injured... I could give a testimony, a quick testimony right now.
I had tried to move our business away from behind our home for a few years. I tried to buy property and there was no one. I wanted to get out along US 24 and 61, the four-lane highway, and get property so we could become more visible with our construction company. And no one desired to sell land to me.
Laura, it was... when the church family came together to help clean up the mess after the fire, one of the people at church said, "Kent, do you realize that this piece of land right down the road right along US 61 and 24 is going to be sold next Saturday at the courthouse steps in Palmyra?" And I said, "No, I didn't know that. And I thought to myself, "Wow, what a perfect location that would be." [00:40:17]
I went to the local bank and told them my heart's desire and they set a limit per acre, what Jan and I could give for that land. And it was an incredible day when God blessed us with that land in that location. It sold just for a few dollars less per acre than the cap that the local bank had put on us. They didn't want to see us get overextended, which is good. But God had another plan.
It wasn't until we went through the devastation of the loss that He could show us what He had in mind for our company. And our company is still there yet today. And it's thousands of cars go by that location every day. [00:41:15]
When I got that location, I was so thankful to God. I made a promise to Him that as long as I could, that a few weeks before Easter and a few weeks after Easter, I would put up three big wooden crosses. Because I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ as we read in Romans 1:16, for it is a power of God and to salvation to everyone that believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Have we probably lost work because we put out the crosses every year? Probably, but I don't care. God has blessed us. We've always had abundance of opportunity and work for our company.
So, yes, my mom's death. Miss her sorely still today. Her and my stepfather, Rod, we're going to drive home the next day from Florida. [00:42:19] They had been down there for an extended time through the winter.
And before the wreck, she had put in the mail a card to Jan and myself and said, "Tomorrow we're coming home and can't wait to see you all." So after the accident, about the same time as the actual, I think it was a little before the funeral, we got the card from mom saying, "I'm coming home." But mom went, you know... some people call it heaven. I think there's a Southern gospel song out there. But Laura, you and I call it home.
Laura Dugger: Amen. Kent, you have experienced tragedy after tragedy, and yet through all of these stories, it's so clear you love to share the good news of Jesus. [00:43:21] And you do that with everyone you encounter. That joy is something that can only come from the Lord. So is there anything else that you'd like to share with all of us? If someone's going through their own grief right now, what encouragement would you have for them to help cope with overwhelming grief?
Kent Heimer: My encouragement to them is even when you can't see exactly what God is doing, continue to trust God. On Jan and mine's license plates here in Missouri, we got Proverbs 3:6... no, 3:5 and 6 is well known to many of you. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to thine own understanding. In all thy ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths."
My encouragement is when you are going through those very, very difficult times, even when you cannot trace the path that God is having you on at the time, even when you can't trace God, trust God. [00:44:31] I can say without a shadow of a doubt that now as I look in the rearview mirror of my life, you know, at the time I couldn't see how all things work together for good. But with some spiritual maturity and walking with Jesus day by day for many, many years, I can give that testimony that all things work together for good.
So when you cannot trace God and you're going through something very, very difficult, continue to trust Him until you understand the rest of the story.
Laura Dugger: Wow. You have quite the perspective to draw from. And I agree completely wholeheartedly with your conclusion. And yet there's so much of your life that we won't have time to cover. But will you catch us up to speed with what you and Jan are up to these days? [00:45:35]
Kent Heimer: Oh, I'd love to do that. Jan and I have three believing children. They're spouses. Each of them are married. They're spouses. Believe. Jan and I are so blessed that we have 12 grandchildren, 10 of them boys, two girls. We don't seem worthy, but our children honor us. In Ephesians 6, "Children obey your parents and the Lord for this is right. Honor thy father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise."
We're not perfect parents. We don't have nail prints in our hands, and we've made a lot of mistakes in life. If you're a parent out there like us, be quick to say the words, "I'm sorry," or "I forgive you." After what Jesus has done for us, keep those lines of communication open with your children and your grandchildren.
Jan and I are humbled. We've been blessed with a cabin, and it's big enough to house all of us. [00:46:41] In December, we send a calendar out to our three children and their spouses, and we pick one weekend a month, every month. So 12 months are presented to our children for family weekends.
This coming weekend is family weekend. So Jan and I are so excited to host our children on Friday. They come in. And everyone helps with meals. One of the girls will do the Friday evening meal, and Jan always does the two breakfasts, Saturday morning and Sunday morning breakfast. One of the other girls will take the Saturday noon meal, and one of the other ones will take the Saturday evening meal. But we gather together.
We have a devotion sometime during that weekend. We celebrate birthdays. We celebrate life. We are so, so blessed that they honor us in that way, and we come together. [00:47:46] So we spend that time together, and then we all go half hour away to our church, and we worship together. Then we come back to the cabin, and we have leftovers from the two days prior, and we just have sweet, sweet fellowship.
So Jan and I feel we are most blessed by our children, by our grandchildren, and thankful that Jan and mine's health has been so good. We are so blessed, Laura.
The main thing that we want now, Jan and I, we don't do it perfectly, but we pray for name by our grandchildren, that they too all, in time, will make that decision and wave that white flag and ask Jesus into their heart.
Laura Dugger: You are so faithful in that. I remember when you were faithfully praying that for your own children, and I know you've prayed that for your relatives' children, myself included. [00:48:53] I just remember not even being a believer yet, but being in Sunday school in high school and you came to visit our little church in Roanoke, and you shared your testimony. And God definitely used that to soften my heart toward Him in that day.
And I pray the same is true of you being willing to share your testimony with all of us today. And what a beautiful spot to come to with that verse that's in the New Testament about, "I have no greater joy than to hear my children are walking in truth." And I know we all pray that for one another today.
But Kent, you may already know our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:49:51]
Kent Heimer: You know, my savvy sauce might take just a few minutes here, but when my dad was taken, like I said, when I was 13. I had nothing from my dad. I knew he loved me, but I had nothing that I could put my hands on when the tears would come.
So one Sunday morning, I was at the cabin, and I was too ill to go to church, and I just reached over my wife's nightstand to see what books were there. And there was one that was called Letters From Dad. And it was a short read, I don't know, 80 to 100 pages. So I read that, lay in there, and I wept most of the way through, wishing this writer also, like myself, had nothing from his father. So I wept with him.
I made a vow and a promise. And so I went to a local man that does great woodworking in our community, and he made me these little walnut boxes, Laura, really nice with dovetail joints and green felt inside. [00:51:03] And I etched a Bible verse on them about my love, a different verse for my children than my grandchildren. So I had 20 some of these made, not knowing how many grandchildren we'd be blessed with.
I take time, and when the Holy Spirit works in my heart, I sat down and I'll pen a letter to my grandchildren. So each of the grandchildren have letters in their walnut box from Grandpa. I want them to know that if God calls me home, that Grandpa loved them. And I put in the letter that, you know, my greatest desire is to be able to be with them forever and ever in heaven.
So I don't know if there's somebody out there, and you're like me and you have nothing, maybe from your dad that showed in a letter form that he loved you. I can tell you my children... I just thank the Holy Spirit. They allowed me to read that book that day and change my life. And my children will know that inside that little walnut box is something to show them when I am gone of the love and the prayers that I had for them. So take time. [00:52:42]
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is quite the legacy. What an amazing idea. It seems very inspired by the Holy Spirit. I love hearing how you followed through. I think that's a wonderful challenge to each of us. Kent, I am just beyond grateful for your willingness to testify about God's work in your life and His protective care of all of His children, even when we go through really hard things. You are a light in this world, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.
Kent Heimer: Thank you, Laura, for the opportunity. And I pray that I didn't steal God's glory today, but I want Jesus to be high and lifted up. So thanks again for allowing me to be a part.
Laura Dugger: Truly my pleasure.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:53:44] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:54:49]
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. [00:55:51] I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 20, 2024
Monday May 20, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.
234. Stories Series: Redemption From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel
**Transcription Below**
1 John 1:7 (NIV) "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
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Will you tell us how you two met Jesus?
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What significant event happened next?
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What were some ways God spoke to each of you throughout your healing process?
Garrett Naufel is a Midwest guy who grew up amongst the cornfields and coal mines of central Illinois. He loves the outdoors, hiking and challenging theological reads. He has served in full-time vocational ministry for 22 years, operating in pastoral roles for the majority of the time, and has navigated heartbreak, hope, life, death, failed church plants and the unveiling of the goodness of Jesus throughout this time. Garrett currently serves as the Discipleship Pastor at Open Bible Baptist Church in Colorado Springs. He has been married to the love of his life for 25 years and has two amazing kiddos (as well as 5 babies in heaven).
Brenna Naufel is a pastor's wife who committed adultery, a mother to two children here on Earth, and five babies in heaven. But, most of all, she knows she is a beloved, precious, cherished, and sweetly forgiven daughter of God. Besides being passionate about sharing God's scandalous love and redeeming grace, Brenna also loves chocolate, games, Sci-Fi movies, and ping pong. And, of course, Jesus and her amazing family! She is the author of From Lover to Beloved - Experience God's hope, healing, and forgiveness after committing adultery. She resides in Colorado Springs, CO with her husband of 25 years and her two beautiful children.
Connect with Brenna on Instagram @brennanaufel
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
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Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Patreon 28 Re-Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Garrett and Brenna Naufel are my guests today. Garrett is a pastor in Colorado, and Brenna is an author. We were introduced through a mutual friend, Allie Bennett.
Allie and I met through church, and she told me about Garrett and Brenna, who were actually her college ministry leaders years ago in a different state. [00:01:20] Garrett and Brenna have such an incredible redemption story, and I'm so grateful they're willing to share it with us now.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Garrett and Brenna.
Brenna Naufel: Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be here.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, thank you very much.
Laura Dugger: Let's begin here. Will you tell us how both of you met Jesus?
Garrett Naufel: Sure, yeah. I really began to encounter Jesus and the gospel more explicitly in college. I kind of grew up around church and a little farm/coal mining town in Illinois prior to that. But yeah, it was in college, really the latter part of college, that I really began to significantly understand the gospel. And it was probably about junior year when the realization dawned on me that, Hey, I'm not a Christian, but I want to know Jesus, and I want to follow Jesus, and I desperately need Jesus. And it was there that He met with me and rescued me. [00:02:20] So yeah, it was late in college when I came to know Jesus.
It was a pretty clear and radical experience for me, as far as understanding my depravity and need and the graciousness of God to come for me and with me.
Brenna Naufel: For me, I would say kind of my journey began after my parents divorced. When I was 8 years old. My dad had an affair, my parents got divorced, and so our lives were flipped upside down. There was a lot of hurt there that you don't quite understand when you're eight years old and growing up from then on out.
But there was certainly this hole that I felt in my heart and didn't quite know how to fill it. My mom had started going to church after the divorce, and she became a believer. So I did grow up in church for the most part at that time and certainly was trying to understand the gospel.
I probably heard it a million times before it finally clicked for me. I went to a Bible camp for a week out of the summer of, I'd say, between my sophomore and junior year in high school. [00:03:27] So again, when I was 16, I gave my life to Christ at that time.
Even at that time, I remember somebody sharing, you know, some of you will be called in a ministry, and even some of you might be called to be a pastor's wife. I felt that wholeheartedly at the time that I would become a pastor's wife. I certainly didn't live that way as far as dating relationships and things always right after that but God certainly did get a hold of my heart.
But it was easy for me to kind of put Him on the back burner for relationships and things, too, as I was growing in my faith. But that's how we both came to know Jesus.
Laura Dugger: The two of you went on to meet each other at a summer leadership program, and you were both sensing that God was leading you to one another for marriage. Actually, within a year of that initial meeting, you were married. But you two soon discovered marriage was harder than either of you had anticipated. And you were trusting that God had brought you together. So that's what made it kind of confusing, and you didn't expect such difficulties to arise in marriage. [00:04:33]
Will you share what significant event happened about three years into marriage, when you were being considered to go on staff at a church in Missouri?
Garrett Naufel: As we were getting ready to do that, to make that transition and move, and went through all the interview process and stuff, I was wrapping up my job, which was in the dot-com world at that time, right before the bubble burst. Right as it was bursting. We were transitioning and I was at work one day, benignly just went to Google-search something, nothing illicit or anything like that, and up popped some pornography on the screen.
I was pretty naive to the internet at that point. I mean, I knew how to use it, but I'd been exposed to pornography at a very early age. I think I was 7 years old the first time I was exposed to it. But it had not been a struggle in my life, even as an unbeliever, for various reasons. [00:05:35] But at that point, I was hooked almost immediately to that. So that began really an 8-year on-and-off battle with internet pornography.
And what I now realize and didn't realize at the time, is there was a large portion of me that had even correlated sex with not just pleasure, but with relief and an escape and a salve, if you will, for stress, difficulty, things like that. So I really gave myself over to that at that point.
Brenna Naufel: And you didn't share it with me.
Garrett Naufel: No, yeah, yeah. I definitely was struggling. I shared with a few people that were not Brenna. I got varying degrees of counsel, most of which wasn't very good or very biblical. One guy in particular basically just said, it's not going to help anything to share this with your wife. You need to just figure this out. [00:06:36]
I tried that, I think, partly because I hoped it worked, partly because of the shame and fear I had around coming into the light, particularly with Brenna about that. And so, yeah, that was an eight-year ongoing, like I said, kind of a binge and purge type of situation in my life.
And I don't mean to downplay it in any way. It was, at points in my life, very consuming of me emotionally, spiritually. It was clearly a hidden thing. Yeah, it was really broken and really, really dishonoring of the Lord and of my wife and of our ministry. I mean, really, in every aspect, it was a wicked, wretched thing.
Laura Dugger: Well, Garrett, I appreciate you being willing to share this part of your story, even as it is difficult. But so many people struggle with this. I even think back, we recently did an episode with Sam Black of Covenant Eyes. I'll link to that in the show notes. [00:07:37]
But he talks about the early childhood exposure and then also using pornography to medicate and how it can medicate your emotions in a really negative and turning destructive way. But I'm also curious, you said even prior to knowing Christ, it was never a struggle for various reasons. Can you pinpoint any specific reasons why it wasn't a struggle before?
Garrett Naufel: Yeah. So I'm older. I'm a child of the 80s. And so pre-internet. So I didn't really have the opportunity to be exposed to internet pornography really until... You know, college would have been the earliest. Not everybody had a computer in their home and things like that growing up. And so some of it was just accessibility.
You know, had it been as accessible as it is now when I was a kid, I probably would have struggled. I think that's part of God's grace to me, even as an unbeliever, was that it just wasn't as easy to get a hold of. [00:08:37]
I think another reason was just shame. Even as an unbeliever, I had a strong sense of shame, strong sense of guilt. I think a lot of what probably kept me from that was just like, you know, when I was growing up, I would have had to have gone into a store and bought something or rented something. And just the fact that someone would have known was too much for my conscience.
Like, I remember guys in college who I was buddies with who would go to the video store and rent stuff. And I was just like, "I couldn't do that." I just had such a strong sense of shame that it just was, I couldn't overcome that. But once it was, you know... I think it was just kind of the perfect storm. My weakness and maturity, brokenness, and the opportunity all came together in that moment back in 2001. And I did not have the fortitude or the conviction or the depth of relationship with Jesus to flee from sin, but I did not do it.
You know, the reality is I was responsible for it. The Lord had provided a way out for me in that temptation, I did not take it. [00:09:49] But I hadn't dealt with Jesus, the mess that was still in my heart. So when that medication presented itself, I very foolishly, but willingly took part in it.
Laura Dugger: One other piece, Garret, are you a firstborn?
Garrett Naufel: I am. I'm the oldest. Yeah, there's two of us and I'm the oldest of the two.
Laura Dugger: Okay. Even the... not that this always pertains to a firstborn, but that shame and guilt and kind of high sensitivity to those things, I can see there's a lot of pressure on firstborns. And I wonder if a lot of people listening, especially who are firstborns, relate to that.
But Brenna, I'm also curious for you at this point. So this eight-year struggle, this is into marriage. Were you experiencing anything differently with Garrett? And even intimacy-wise, did you notice an impact on your relationship?
Brenna Naufel: Yeah, that's a great question. [00:10:48] I definitely felt an emotional distance from Garrett that I couldn't quite pinpoint. Or I didn't understand, you know, because I would ask him at times, like, "I feel like you're really far. I feel like there's something between you and God. There's something between us."
So I think I felt that strongly at some times. And other times we just kind of went about our lives and I kind of just let it go, if that makes sense. But I definitely started to feel an emotional distance from Garrett. And that certainly impacted things.
I think intimacy-wise, that's just always been a struggle for me regardless. So I don't know if I noticed it impacting that area. It's just an area that I've struggled in personally, I think, kind of similar to Garrett in a sense where I equated that with... so I had a couple of sexual relationships prior to our marriage and I had equated that with being loved and feeling wanted and all those kinds of things. [00:11:51]
So in a twisted, weird sense, I think when we got married and I felt completely loved and wanted by Garrett just because of being me and for who he is. Then sometimes the sexual intimacy didn't... it was harder to come by in a sense because I felt those things in other ways and I was still equating it with something very broken. So I didn't notice it in that regard, but certainly emotionally, I think I felt that and had wondered about it even spiritually.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, you made that clear.
Brenna Naufel: Yeah. So, as Garrett mentioned, we decided to go on staff with the ministry and move to Missouri. And we did that and it was honestly a very lonely time. That time that we had moved here was meant for Garrett to raise financial support so he could be fully funded to be in college ministry. So we weren't really getting plugged into our new church or with new friends and we had just uprooted and left, honestly, some of the best friends that at least I had had growing up. [00:12:56]
I was a military brat. I went to four different high schools. Like I didn't have a real kind of solid sense of just friendship and community. But I did have that in Texas. It was the first time I kind of felt like at home in a sense. And we had just left those things. And so we're kind of left on our own.
You know, Garrett's in the midst of this struggle and I'm starting to basically not spend time with the Lord like I had been, you know, because we're not in this community. But I'm also personally not spending time with the Lord.
Naively again, thinking I can just... I've had all these amazing experiences with God. Like I know who He is and I know I'm loved and, you know, just kind of trying to coast if you will. That eventually then led to me not really taking my thoughts captive.
So I began a secret struggle, I would say probably about five years or so into our marriage of honestly fantasizing about men pursuing me, not even anything sexual, nothing physical. [00:14:02] Like in my mind, I would stop it. You know, if I'm thinking about those things from anything going too far, if you will, but certainly the idea of being pursued and wanted in that way, I would let my mind wander there, which eventually... because I'm not confessing that and I'm entertaining those thoughts. That eventually led into real-life flirtations.
This is like over the course of at least a year or all of this is very, very slowly progressing and the slippery slope that I'm going down. So it led to real-life flirtations up to the point where I was alone with a man at a business event and he kissed me. And that is, again, in my mind where I'd never, ever would have let things go. I was strong enough to stop things. But when that happens, it just kind of fulfilled all those other feelings that I had been entertaining and playing with in my heart.
Like Garrett said earlier, he was kind of hooked. That was Satan's hook in me, right? He caught me by the lip and I was there. [00:15:02] That kiss then led into a five-year-long affair. So the last five years of Garrett's struggle with pornography was also me hiding this incredible secret sin of adultery. And so we're just living very separate lives, but also not understanding what's going on in each other's hearts and this distance that we're feeling and all the things.
Laura Dugger: Also at this time were children in the picture?
Garrett Naufel: No, we didn't have any children at that time. I think that was part of God's mercy to us is that we didn't at that time have children who would have to experience all of what was going on and what would occur. You know, they're both pretty young still, but we recognize in our planning for the days that come where we will discuss God's work in our lives and through this, but it is something that is unknown to our children. And then we're not at that point in the picture. [00:16:11]
Laura Dugger: Again, just appreciate you both being willing to take us through this story. Brenna, as you've shared, even from the beginning, your father having an affair and leaving. And the interesting link to the fantasy of men pursuing you, I wonder if it's a little girl's good longing taken in the wrong direction where you long for your daddy to choose you and how that plays out, even into adulthood.
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: So you two are running these, not even parallel paths, but running away from one another. [00:18:12] And so was there anything that broke this cycle?
Brenna Naufel: Yes.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah.
Brenna Naufel: Garrett can start first.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah. So, you know, throughout these eight years, I would be wrapped up in this sin, and then I would just be so disgusted and so fed up and so sick before the Lord. Again, it's kind of that binge and purge cycle where I would just step away and I'm done with this. Jesus, you've overcome this, and I'm going to trust in you. And then I would eventually take steps back in.
So in 2009, I was sitting, and at this point I'd been on staff with our church, and I had shared with members of the church and people on my staff team what I was struggling with. And so I was picking and choosing my spots to have the appearance. I wouldn't have thought that's what I was doing at the time, but reflecting back, you know, I was seeking some form of accountability, but still wasn't willing to fully be in the light with that. [00:19:17]
So I don't think that excuses anything. I think it just shows on some level the battle that was raging in me between my fallenness in flesh and what Jesus had purchased me for and called me into.
In 2009, I was sitting in a restaurant waiting to meet with a guy that was part of our church, and I was reading the scriptures, and the Lord just very clearly spoke to me and said, "This is enough. This is done." I was so convicted by the realities of what it means to be in the light, that if we are in the light as He is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another.
And it just struck me to the core. The Spirit pierced my heart and convicted me in an undeniable way, and I knew in that moment I had to flee. I had to flee sexual morality in every sense of the word, and I had to run towards Jesus, and I had to be fully in the light. [00:20:22]
So that night I got home after that meeting with that guy, I sat down with Brenna, and I said, "Here's what's been going on, and here's how long, and I need to confess this, and I need you to know, and I want to live in repentant ways. I will do whatever it takes to be in the light with this and to seek to rebuild trust, and I'm asking for your forgiveness."
I'm not expecting to be forgiven in the moment, but that we would go through the process of mourning, grieving, repenting, reconciling, and Lord willing being restored to one another in our marriage in that regard, because I had broken my vows to my wife to be set apart solely for her sexually.
Laura Dugger: Brenna, when he came forward and confessed to you, how did that land with you, and did that impact you in any way to be compelled to confess also?
Brenna Naufel: You'd think it would. [00:21:22] Let me start first with just kind of a response, I think, to Garrett confessing, and obviously I'm hiding my own crazy secret sin as well at this time that he's confessing. But I honestly was relieved in a sense to finally know and understand what that distance was that I had felt for so long.
I also knew what an incredible struggle it had been for me for the past five years of trying to end the affair and getting sucked back in and just the immense death that that has on your life and on your heart. So I was thankful that he was stepping out of that for himself, kind of recognizing that that must have been the struggle that he had been going through. I was so thankful that he was coming into the light and putting that to death as well.
In that moment, I think I was like, "I forgive you." I very quickly was, "I forgive you." [00:22:23] It was much more understanding in a sense. It's still not fully understanding, but understanding the struggle, the hiding of things, but I also didn't feel that I had the right, if that's the right word, to feel the hurt from it because I was doing my own thing and hurting him in my own ways. And so that would come much later.
So yes, there was a lot in me I would say Holy Spirit's probably like, "Now's the time. You've got to get your stuff on the table too. Now's the time." But I chickened out. I was so close in that conversation multiple times to just spill my stuff too, but I didn't. And I hate that I didn't, but in that moment. I just was too scared because it felt so big.
My moment came just a few months after Garrett confessed. And same thing with Garrett. I had put an end to things, and it would go several months, and then it would get sucked back in. So I kind of felt like I was doing okay, right? [00:23:34] Like, "Do I really need to share this with my husband?" Kind of similar thoughts to what Garrett had early on with his struggle.
I'm so thankful because I actually was confronted by a man that I had used to work with. The man I was having an affair with was a person at my job. So this other man had heard rumors and things and confronted me. He had his own reasons for doing that but God used it still, and basically said, "If you don't tell Garrett, I will."
So I broke. I rushed out of the office as soon as I can after he confronted me. I just bawled my eyes out, just really turning my heart back towards the Lord and just so remorseful and so sorry and just overcome with guilt. And really just I think remorse is just the best word. Why did I do these things, and how could I have done these things? I was the person to be like, I would never do that to my husband, seeing other people struggle with that or having committed adultery.
So I decided to tell Garrett, but I still waited a few days because at that time, my job was kind of our primary source of income, and it was our source of insurance, and both of our other pastors from the church were going to be going out of town for the whole summer in a week or two, and the next week, I was supposed to go to Rome with my mom. [00:25:05] We had this trip planned to Italy.
There was all of these reasons why it didn't make sense to me to confess immediately, but again, I'm so thankful because even though I told this other guy, I am going to tell Garrett. I'm trying to figure things out, that wasn't enough for him. Unfortunately, he wound up calling Garrett I think probably just three or four days after he had confronted me. And he's the one that told him, "Did you know your wife is doing these things?"
That just broke my heart. One, that I did the things that I did, obviously, but that he had to find out that way instead of just me coming to him in the same way that he did to me, just out of humility and brokenness.
So he called me at work after he got that phone call and said, "I need you to come home," and I just knew what it was. I knew that this other guy must have called him.
I came into the house, we sat on the couch, and he asked me what seemed to be... It felt like he thought it was such a ridiculous question to have to ask me. [00:26:12] He was apologizing, like, "I am so sorry I have to ask you this most ridiculous question, but Andy called and he said this is what's happening. Is it true?" And I sat there and said, "Yes, it is. Yes, it is."
That was the beginning of confessing a lot of things. There was certainly this initial confession of the broad strokes of what had been going on and how long it had been going on for. Honestly, there was a few other men during that whole period where I had kissed or had some kind of brief physical encounter with, not sexually, but still. So there was multiple even offenses on that regard as well. And so all of that, I just confessed.
We called one of the pastors over, and he sat with some kind of tell all of these wretched things that I had done to Garrett and confessed it to our pastor as well. And I would continue confessing, honestly, for the next probably about two and a half years. [00:27:14] Because when you go through five years of doing this, there's just... Garrett wanted to know all the details.
And not everybody will want that or feel like they need that. That was the case for us. And I honestly feel like that was good for my heart as well, because I felt like when he was able to come to a place of truly forgiving me, I didn't feel like there was still anything hidden. Or, oh, well, but I did tell him about this part. So does he really forgive me? Does he really love me? Am I really known? So I feel like that was God's grace to us too. It was torture during the time, obviously, but I'm thankful for that nonetheless.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. So you both came clean. Garrett, likewise, as I had asked Brenna before, when you received her confession or admission at that point, how was that for you to hear?
Garrett Naufel: As Brenna shared, I really did think this is ridiculous. [00:28:19] I was almost ashamed. We're serving in our church, we're leaders there, I was on the cusp of being ordained as a pastor. That was going to be delayed because I had just come into light with my struggles fully a few months prior to that. So I had already said, like, "I don't think this is the worst timing on this."
But I knew as one of the leaders in the church, hey, if there's this accusation against one of us, you know, we have to at least acknowledge it's there and do the work to either say, Hey, we understand this is not the case. Or if it is, there's work to be done." And so I took it seriously, even though I thought it was ridiculous.
I will say over the years of the affair, I had very much sensed a distance. And that's putting it lightly, there too. [00:29:22] But I had essentially attributed it to, hey, this is a season in Brenna's a walk, and I don't know what's going on. But my job is to encourage my wife in the Lord and to weather it with her, even if I don't understand what's going on, even if I don't have the wise, my commitment, my promises to my wife is to be here.
So, yeah, when I received the confession, I was certainly surprised. Because, again, I thought I was very much like, "I'm so sorry I have to ask this." But because we are leaders in the church, and there is this rumor, and we have to deal with this, I was shocked.
I think at the same time, my deep desire was to show Brenna the mercy of Christ that we had both received abundantly from Him. I would say there was some shock and some grief. But I think at least in the moment, my initial desire is, okay, Jesus, how does the gospel apply here? [00:30:28] And how can I extend that to my wife in real and tangible ways?
That was my initial thinking. As we had more time to process then and all the other things start coming to the forefront, there was much more to deal with. But my initial response was even probably to try to rush to forgiveness.
Brenna Naufel: You did. I mean, you did. You said, "I forgive you" in that first sit-down meeting, and our other pastor was like, "Time out." That's great, but we need to figure out just all that has been done to you. What are you forgiving? Do you understand?
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, to not extend, quote-unquote, cheap grace to my wife, but to do the hard work. I'd say the most overwhelming thing was, Jesus, I want to trust you for this, and I want to extend love to my wife.
Laura Dugger: Which is incredible and such a gift from the Lord to have that outlook. But also you mentioned doing the hard work. How did the two of you work through this? [00:31:32]
Garrett Naufel: Some very clear things we definitely sought to be in the light with one another and with others. We committed very early on to do, for lack of better terminology, the work of forgiveness. So, to not extend cheap grace to one another. And to do the hard work of rebuilding trust. To really say to one another, hey, whatever it's going to take for me to show that I am living a life of integrity, that I'm rebuilding together with the Lord a life of integrity, I will do that. And really, no real boundaries on that, other than obviously nothing sinful or nothing completely unreasonable or crazy.
That was a big part of it, saying yes to... if Brenna's saying to me, hey, I want you to have on your computer this software like Covenant Eyes type stuff, then it was an immediate, yeah, okay, absolutely. I'll do that right now type of thing. [00:32:35]
Brenna Naufel: Other very practical things. Obviously, I did not... I'm going to say obviously, because this is actually a struggle for some people, but I left my job immediately. So I never went back. As soon as I confessed, I never went back to my job other than to pick up my things with Garrett.
I blocked any communication means that I would have had with this man. I made sure that he couldn't find me on Facebook. Obviously deleting numbers we had at that time. AOL chat was kind of the big thing. And so I just completely got rid of that off of my computer.
Garrett and I actually went through each other's just even social media connections and friends. And if there was just somebody that we felt uncomfortable with at that time, just because of the hurt and the wound that was there, then we kind of severed those connections for the sake of our relationship and the sake of our marriage.
I got rid of anything that this man had given to me because he had given me some things. We just completely purged our house of anything that we could in that regard. [00:33:34] We immediately got into counseling with a Christian counselor. That was probably the biggest piece that was, I would just say, honestly critical.
So we did marriage counseling to get couples counseling together as well as that individual counseling as well. I was there at least probably two or three times a week in the beginning, meeting and processing with this person. We had a kind of a small team almost assigned to each of us from other members in the church-
Garrett Naufel: For care and accountability.
Brenna Naufel: Yeah, care and accountability. ...that could really just be there to walk with us individually with things as well. Practical things. Like if Garrett had to go out of town... he was immediately put on sabbatical for six months, which was huge.
Garrett Naufel: Enormous gift to Aspire Church.
Brenna Naufel: Huge blessing so we can just be together. I think we obviously committed to being completely honest and transparent with one another. So if Garrett did ask me a question, no matter how uncomfortable it was to have to articulate the truth to that question and the things that were done, I was committed to being honest in my response. [00:34:43]
And if he just couldn't possibly think of all the right questions to ask me, if there was something that came to my mind, I was committed to go and confess it and to share it with him. I will say I didn't always do that lickety-split, you know, like, Wohoo, I'm going to go tell Garrett something else.
There was times where I would struggle and wrestle with that for a couple of days, because sometimes those usually came up when things felt like they're just a little bit easier that day or it wasn't as heavy. And then I would remember something else, you know, that we'd have to go tell him. But we're still committed to do that work. I'm so thankful that we did. Because it's just another thing that Satan can grab a hold of and hold on to if we don't continue to confess.
We had for Garrett, like once I went to bed because he always stayed up late at night, college ministry. But I usually worked a nine-to-five job. I was in the process of looking for another job. But as soon as I went to bed, then you just know no laptop, no computer, no nothing, even with the software on it. [00:35:43] You know, like we're just putting away the devices. We put things on our TV to even filter out. Not that we had subscriptions or anything to anything risque.
But, you know, there's just stuff out there, too, even with basic cable and those things at the time. So we put even kind of parental controls on things. So we wanted to see stuff like that.
Garrett Naufel: I think the biggest thing was just a wholehearted commitment, desire to throw ourselves at the mercy of Christ, at the foot of the cross, and say, "Jesus, you have to take it all. You have to be the one who does the work to redeem us here, to help us even with our wills, as Brenna said, to the point of where in our flesh there's going to be temptation to not do certain things, but to instead say, No, Lord, please help us to wholeheartedly pursue you.
Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. [00:36:42] Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life.
What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that's improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com. I just love the way you articulate this with blending of practical and what you learned from scripture. It just made me think of Hebrews 12:1 and the first part of 2, because you mixed all of these elements that it talks about where you were living in community, you were confessing, you were turning away from things of the past and you were running toward Jesus.
So I'll just read... I've got my Bible open. It's the Quest NIV. Hebrews 12:1 and the first part of 2 say, "Therefore since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author, and perfecter of our faith." [00:37:58] And you two just lived that out and shared that with us.
I'm also curious, were there any other ways that God really spoke to each of you throughout your healing journey?
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, I think for me, one of the most profound things was I understood that me pursuing my wife in truth and love and mercy and compassion and me pursuing Jesus was the best possible way that I could show the love of Jesus to my wife. That really to fulfill the burden of Christ was to bear this burden with my wife and to be an embodiment of the gospel to her. I would have no greater opportunity than to do this, to lay down my life and my quote-unquote rights for the sake of her heart and for her relationship with Jesus.
I really understood that as God saying this is where the rubber meets the road. You want to live out the gospel? Here's a profound opportunity for you to experience and live out what I've called you into. [00:39:06]
Brenna Naufel: For me, that's the aftermath of the affair. Really, probably two and a half, three years before we extended forgiveness and reconciled, we renewed our vows, all those kinds of things. It was a long journey. I would say it is the sweetest time that I've ever had with the Lord. He truly just meets us in the deepest, darkest valley. He taught me and just showed me so many things.
There is this big journey together with my counselor, too. As you mentioned earlier, Laura, it brought tears to my eyes when you did earlier about this little girl longing and wanting to be chosen and pursued as a result of those things. I definitely learned a lot just going back, looking at my childhood, what's there that I need to heal from. I felt God just tenderly with me in those moments.
Some specific things. [00:40:07] There was one significant event where God kind of gave me these four lessons, if you will. It was just about three or four months after my confession. Even though Garrett was on sabbatical, we still went to the staff retreat that our church had at that time, which was in Estes Park, Colorado. We're in Missouri still at this time, so this is in Estes Park.
We still went together, and it allowed me just a lot of time alone to get with the Lord. I went on a hike one day, and I just dedicated that time to God. I said, "God, I'm here. I am listening. Whatever you want to show me or teach me, I'm here." God really used that time.
Even starting off on that hike, I rounded this bend, and there were some tall grasses to the side. I heard a rustling in the grass. I was thinking, "Oh, no, what if there's a snake in there?" I heard the question, "Well, what if there is a snake?" I was like, "What if it bites me? What if it's poisonous?" Again, God was like, "Well, what if it does bite you and it is poisonous?" [00:41:13]
I responded with, "Well, we'd have to get the poison out." I felt like God was saying, exactly. You have been bitten by a snake and it's been causing death of life and joy and freedom. We have to get the poison out. I was understanding that to be all of my past hurt, the wounds that were done to me and the wounds that I've inflicted, the lies that I believed, certainly from my sin, I would have to get that poison out, otherwise, it would continue to kill me.
God was just really, again, helping me to embrace this deep healing process from all of those things and truly seeing Him for who He is and what He says is true instead of how I might see Him sometimes or what my heart feels about God at times.
So we continued on this path. I continued, me and God. We came up to these horses. I took this path specifically because I wanted to go by the horses because I had in my mind that I would have this amazing God encounter. [00:42:18] These horses would be galloping across the field. They would come over to me and recognize me and acknowledge me in some way. This is seriously what I was thinking.
Instead, I come and I see the first horse and it's just standing there. It's not acknowledging me. It's not even looking at me. And kind of I'm thinking, "What's the deal, buddy? What's up? Here I am. This is our moment." I saw horse after horse after horse that were actually tied by the bit and bridle super tight to the pole, like a fence that was in front of them. Again, I felt like God was sharing with me that I was like these horses because I was angry to see them. This is not right. This is not what horses are created for. Just being kind of stuck here like this. God was like, "You were like this horse. You were like this horse."
There's a verse that talks about, do not be like the horse or mule that must be controlled by bit and bridle. That had been me. [00:43:19] That was me stuck in my sin and not living as who God created me to be and not living in the freedom and joy that He created me to be in. It was just kind of this picture that He gave me with these horses.
I continued along and I'm just really enjoying my time with the Lord. Again, I took the path that the horses go on. People pay and they ride these horses to get to this park where I eventually was trying to get to. What I had not thought of is the horses don't go to the bathroom somewhere else before they go. On this path, there's just mounds and mounds of crap everywhere. I'm like, "Well, this is lovely. This isn't what I signed up for."
Again, I felt like God was even using that just saying, you know, life is like this path. I have promised you something beautiful, you know, in the future at the end but there's going to be a lot of crap along the way. And if you keep your eyes down and only focus on the crap, you're going to miss out on the beauty and the joy that I have surrounded you with. [00:44:24] Because, you know, you've got to look up is the message of you have to look up to me and you have to hold on to and trust my promises, hold on to me and trust the promises that I have given you.
Lastly, I made it through all the crap path and made it to the park that I was trying to get to. But I got really kind of mixed up. I had this terrible map and I wasn't sure how to complete the loop or which way to go to basically get back to the YMCA, which is where we were at in Estes Park there.
So I'm just wandering around. I'm kind of looking. I'm kind of acting like I know where to go, but I don't really know where to go. I finally had to ask someone for help. And even in that, I felt like God was teaching me and showing me that life is like this path. It's so easy to take a step in the wrong direction or to get off the path that I have intended for you.
You have to ask other people for help along the way. And because I was definitely afraid to ask anyone for help. That was kind of my shame that I wasn't worth helping or just that I was wrong. [00:45:31] So why would I ever ask somebody for help? So even in that, I feel like he was teaching me like, You might take a wrong step. You have to have people with you that help keep you on the right path as well.
So those are just a few of the things. Sorry for my long story. But yeah, God's just so sweet in meeting with me in so many ways.
Laura Dugger: That is so meaningful to hear how He personally met you and what a powerful encounter that was with him. I also love how He is lavish in His generosity because God not only chooses to heal us, but He can also restore and redeem our lives. And God certainly did that. He went on to redeem your marriage. And since that time, you two have renewed your wedding vows, you've had children, and now you even share that you have a marriage you never imagined possible. [00:46:33]
That's not to say that it's been perfect, because I know there were still struggles and loss along the way. But your life now reminds me of that first part of Joel 2:25 in the Bible that says, "And I will restore to you the years that the locusts hath eaten." So Garrett and Brenna, thank you for sharing about God's rescue and redemption story in your lives. If we're inspired to continue to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you like to direct us?
Brenna Naufel: I've written a book called From Lover to Beloved. It's experiencing God's hope, healing, and forgiveness after committing adultery. It's really written to the Christian or certainly those who may be wondering about this God thing who have committed adultery. It's written for them because I didn't see much out there for people in that boat. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of condemnation that can come. And yet God is so good and so faithful to forgive and to remove our guilt and to restore. [00:47:42] I wanted to share that hope and that message with people. It interweaves a lot of the stories even that I kind of got to share today and certainly many more.
But just sharing God's truth about His forgiveness, being able to forgive yourself, talks about confession and repentance. Again, that's called From Lover to Beloved. It's on Amazon. I also have a website From LovertoBeloved.com, where you can certainly contact us through that. There's some other resources out there as well. And then on my Instagram, it's just @BrennaNaufel. So my name @@BrennaNaufel.
So even for reaching Garrett, I think probably through our website or things like that would probably work best for him directly as well.
Garrett Naufel: And we're very open to individual interaction. We appreciate and welcome direct messages, whatever avenue people want to speak directly with one or both of us.
Laura Dugger: Well, I will definitely add links to the show notes for today's episode so that people can find you easily there. Well, you both are already familiar that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so I just have one final question for both of you today. What is your savvy sauce? [00:48:59]
Brenna Naufel: Yeah, just the simple idea of asking before acting. I'm trying really hard to take time to really ask the Lord just for wisdom, for insight, for direction before I just run out and act. Because I can just like go out and do all the things and think that I'm doing all this amazing stuff but I haven't really taken time to ask the Lord if this is something He might have for me. Speaking kind of general. But just really asking before acting is what I'm working on right now. I would say that's my savvy sauce at the moment.
Garrett Naufel: I think having an unwavering commitment by God's grace and power to confessing quickly to things, having things, you know, not piecemealing being in the light, spreading it across various people and therefore saying, you know, I'm in the light because 10 people know this, but no one person knows everything.
And so, yeah, just have practically saying picking your spouse for sure. If you're married, your spouse should know you top to bottom. Make that commitment to make that known. [00:50:04] But I think to having at least a few other mature believers who know your life and who you're quick to say, Hey, here's what's going on. Here's the whole of my life, not just the, quote-unquote, prettier presentable parts. That has been practically very profound in us living in freedom of interest with Jesus. And so I would, without flinching, recommend that to anyone and everyone who would follow after Jesus.
Laura Dugger: Love it. Well, Garrett and Brenna, I can't say thank you enough. Thank you for your transparency and for entrusting us with your story so that we can see God a little bit clearer and be encouraged by His grace that's freely offered to each of us. You've testified how he can restore beauty from ashes. And I'm so grateful. So thank you for being my guests.
Garrett Naufel: Thank you.
Brenna Naufel: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. We're honored. [00:51:06]
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, it's a privilege and pleasure. Thank you so much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:52:08] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:53:08] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. [00:54:03] Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 13, 2024
Monday May 13, 2024
Special Patreon Release: Story of Perseverance with Jenny Boyett
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 46:1 NIV “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble."
Jenny Boyett is a business professional with over 25 years of strategic thinking, relationship building, leadership development, business development, and communication experience ranging from a local recruiting business to a $100M non-profit. She has a demonstrated ability to lead a team with a focus on professional development, event planning and public speaking. She is energized by relationships—a visionary networker who sees the bigger picture and can motivate an individual and/or a team to accomplish goals and be the best version of themselves.
She is a Master Working Genius Facilitator, a Certified Temperament Coach, and sought after public speaker. A graduate of Georgia Southern University, a huge proponent of counseling, and has recently found a passion for pickleball.
Other Savvy Sauce Podcast Episodes Mentioned:
118 Parenting All the Temperaments with Jenny Boyett
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: If this is your first time here, welcome. You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release, so here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.
But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit.
We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. [00:01:28]
If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs.
We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.
If you're a parent like me, and oftentimes, regardless of our kid's age and phase of life, we are looking for extra energy, and so I want to recommend Magic Mind. It's the world's first performance shot. You can learn more at magicmind.com/thesavvysauce and get up to 56% off your subscription or save 20% off your one-time purchase when you use the code SavvySauce20 at checkout. [00:02:33]
And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons.
My guest is trainer, speaker, and consultant Jenny Boyette. Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Thank you. It's good to be back.
Laura Dugger: Well, I know that we're all excited to get to know you better, and we didn't cover all of this during our previous chat together. So will you just tell us where you're from and how you came to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?
Jenny Boyett: Sure. Well, I'm kind of from all over. My parents got divorced when I was young and my mom remarried, and he was a professional soccer player when it was big back in the 70s and 80s. So we moved around a lot.
But I grew up pretty much in between Florida and Georgia. We went to a lot of different churches, and I always went to church camps and heard about Jesus. Definitely wanted to follow Him and accept Him. [00:03:33]
I would say I would have considered myself a Christian, but it wasn't until college that I started to understand what it was like to have a personal relationship with Jesus. He felt kind of far away until then and was able to get into a great ministry that I felt like really developed my faith and helped me understand what it looked like to walk daily with Jesus.
So I would say I was saved in middle school, but that it wasn't until probably my late teens, early 20s that I understood what it truly meant to be walking side by side with Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.
Laura Dugger: Then from that point forward, where did you go for college and what did you envision life to be like? Did you think you would get married someday?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, good question. I went to Georgia Southern University down in Statesboro, which was a pretty small town for me. I was in Atlanta at the time and my brother and sister... Well, my older brother was at Georgia, so I didn't want to go there. [00:04:32] So I went to Georgia Southern.
I just wanted to have the typical college experience. I went through Rush and was a sorority girl. I just figured I would go to college, I would meet my husband in college and I would get married after college. And then we would move back to Atlanta and have the white picket fence with the 2.5 kids and the dog and life would be glorious. So that was my vision. But I didn't have a lot of vision. Once the kids were born and the husband went to work, I didn't really see much past having the kids and having the house.
Laura Dugger: So how did you come to meet your husband?
Jenny Boyett: Well, we met at school at Southern at a fraternity sorority party and just kind of started dating for about three and a half years. We did have a breakup in between that time and I was devastated. I think I moved around so much as a kid that when I met him, he was from a small town and his whole family lived there. And I just figured I would move there with him and whatever he wanted to do, I could just be the great fellowship hall lady at the Baptist church and call it a day. [00:05:40]
So that's really what I was thinking up until when we broke up. We were looking at rings and trying to decide what our future held and then it kind of hit me out of nowhere. He broke up with me. From that moment, I didn't quite know what my life envisioned. I was pretty much just banking on that life.
And so I think that was really one of the first times that I was on my knees, weeping, crying out to the Lord to kind of show me a path. So we were broken up for about six months or so and then he decided he wanted to try and get back together. So he did. He moved to Atlanta to pursue me and decided he wasn't going to live in the small town anymore and we were going to get married and do all of this in the big city of Atlanta. So that's what we did.
Laura Dugger: Then fast forward, so you're married, and then your first time becoming a mom. Was that at all what you expected?
Jenny Boyett: No. I mean, I think I kind of had expected you get married, you're married for three to five years, you try to have kids, and you just get pregnant. [00:06:46] That's what happens, right? Well, that's not what had happened for us.
We struggled with fertility. We weren't getting pregnant and we didn't quite know what was wrong. So we ended up in a fertility clinic, and we're just getting our options together and trying to find out, do we adopt, do we go through some fertility treatments? How is this going to go?
We definitely prayed about it and had met with a lot of different people and we decided we were going to attempt in vitro fertilization for the first time and just see. So we had generous parents and saved some of our own money. We went through the process, and we got pregnant.
Some people go through the fertility process, and I really wanted like my whole family in the freezer is what they call it. But I didn't get that. We ended up with three eggs, and then only two of them were viable. So they implanted those two eggs, and I got pregnant. And I got pregnant with triplets. [00:07:45]
One of those eggs split, so I have an identical set of girls and then a fraternal girl. And so nothing about being pregnant, nothing about bringing home a newborn, nothing went as I had expected. It was very dangerous and risky. There was hospital visits and hospital stays and just a lot of help needed after the girls came home. It was very chaotic, for sure.
I never got to be the cute little wife, new mom pulling into Target, taking their one little baby in and everybody oohing and aahing over the baby. We were kind of like a show everywhere we went. I certainly didn't run into Target for a quick errand or anything. That wasn't really possible with triplet newborns.
Laura Dugger: I can't even imagine that. Even from our previous time together, you shared that you're a yellow temperament. And so I'm just wondering when it's a high-risk pregnancy and then even welcoming home these three little girls, was that hard to not get to spend as much time with your friends and with adult people? [00:08:52] Or what was that season like for you?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah, it was. I mean, I think God had given me the yellow temperament in order to be able to just roll with the punches and go with the flow and see the best in the situation. But it was difficult. I was seeing a counselor during that time as well.
I remember the counselor saying, "I know you're a new mom and you're happy and there's postpartum going on, but you do need to give yourself a room to mourn." And it's to mourn the fact that, yes, you're happy to be a mom and you're grateful that you got pregnant. So many people go through infertility and then never are able to conceive. But it didn't go the way that you had hoped and wanted. And it was risky. So it's okay to give yourself room to mourn the way that this went."
I think that was really helpful advice because I did have to give myself that space because it wasn't what I had wanted it to be. There were some parts that were better and there were some parts that were much, much harder. [00:09:53]
I was lucky enough that I had an incredible community around me and they brought meals for months. I would plan to connect with my friends through them dropping off meals. I would get out, you know, at least once or twice a week to try to just get away. I was just intentional with that time because I didn't need as much time alone, but I needed to be smart with where I was going to spend that time when I had it away from the kids.
Laura Dugger: Did you work while you were raising your little ones?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I work at North Point Community Church and I was able to take an extended maternity leave, but then I did go back to work basically full-time. It was 30 hours a week. We have an incredible weekday program there, so the girls could go with me there, but that was definitely tricky.
My husband traveled a lot and I would be by myself and be taking them into school and navigating all of their first year and a half of life. [00:10:55] Pretty much working mom, husband who travels before I got any real help in the house to help navigate that.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I can see where that is a ton added to your plate. I guess I kind of want to blend these conversations. So even referring back with your temperament, do you see with moms of any of the temperaments, are there certain ones that are more likely to work while raising children?
Jenny Boyett: Honestly, it's been a mixture. I mean, I haven't ever thought about it to pinpoint specifically, but when I think of my friends that are working, I honestly know all the different temperaments that work. I think in how they work and how they manage their household looks differently, but I don't necessarily think the decision to work or not work is based on temperament alone. I think there's a lot of factors that come into it.
Because I have as many different temperaments of friends that stay home as I do that are working. But the difference that I have noticed in them is how they manage it and who gets more overwhelmed or who's more structured. [00:12:00] I think that changes and the flow of that is based on the temperament.
Laura Dugger: Well, I want to take a moment though just to pick your brain with your expertise. So could you go through each of those temperaments as moms and just tell us what you've noted for those working moms? How do they tend to manage that balance?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I would say for myself, I'm a yellow mom and it was really just not being as scheduled and not being maybe as hard on myself at times and just trying to make things more fun. There was a lot of last-minute, Oh, I didn't get to see them today, so let's go to the park," or there's like, let's just grab Chick-fil-A for dinner instead of me cooking."
So as a yellow, I definitely felt like I was more spontaneous as a young mom and brought in as much fun as I could. Whereas my red moms, I definitely feel like were more planned and had a little bit more control of their household. [00:12:59]
One of my very good friends is a red mom and I mean, the week is pretty much planned out. She didn't forget a whole lot of activities and she would strategically sign up to volunteer in the class when it worked with her work schedule, or she honestly didn't feel bad if she couldn't be in the class.
Whereas I, as a yellow, was kind of stretching myself thin to maybe be everywhere at every time and would forget some of those times. My good friend, she would really have the kids work around what her work schedule was.
My blue friends, they are just very structured, so very organized. But I saw them more so working their work schedule around what the kids would benefit from. So if they needed to, you know, leave early a couple of days a week based on the kids, they would navigate that so that they could be there to be the one to pick up the kids and that kind of stuff.
Whereas my red friends more so delegated some of those responsibilities to a neighbor or to a husband or to a friend. [00:14:04] Not that they weren't there for their kids because they totally were, but were more likely to maybe put work in front of some of the tasks that somebody else could do as far as working mom stuff.
But my blue friends are very organized. I feel like they, you know, plan out their lunches ahead of time and make sure they have everything. They would plan their meals out. Whereas me, I'd be going to cook a meal as a yellow and be like, Oh my gosh, I don't have cream of chicken soup. What can I cook now? Whereas that just never happened to my blue friends because they had it really planned out accordingly.
And then my green friends, I'm thinking of one mom in particular, you know, interesting enough, I feel like my green friend that I'm thinking of probably beat herself up the most in a way because I think that she did have that part people, part task kind of thing going on. And I think that it was just a really hard balance to do all that she wanted to do and found herself having to cheat something all the time. [00:15:05]
I think she's the one that always felt like she was never doing a good job. She's such a great mom and always was engaged with the people of her house and loving them and supporting them and always being there for them. But definitely took on probably more of their responsibility at times when they would forget their lunch at school, let's say.
The yellow wouldn't even realize it or get the message that the little girl didn't have their lunch at school. My red friend would get the message and say, "Tough luck. She'll never forget her lunch again." My blue friend wouldn't let the child get out of the car without the lunch because she knew that it was sitting in the seat. My green friend was the one that was quickly making the lunch and running it up to the school just to make sure the little girl had something to eat.
So that kind of narrows it down a little bit of what my perspective has been of some of my different friends with the different temperaments.
Laura Dugger: I just want to pause real quick because I had given you a teaser earlier about Magic Mind, and I just wanted to take a moment to tell you more about it. [00:16:03] I first heard about Magic Mind from a health-conscious mother of seven, how it helped her and her husband with sustained energy and focus. She kept talking about the natural ingredients that resulted with no crash.
I personally never drink energy drinks and I'm prone to insomnia so I have to be careful with anything that boosts energy. But I'm always looking to intake healthier and more nutritious options. So when I learned more about the ingredients list of Magic Mind, I was willing to give it a try.
I first tried Magic Mind the day our family was traveling and I was amazed that it did what it said it would do. I experienced focus and clarity and an energy boost, but I also didn't have a crash later and I still slept well that night. I was so excited that I kept trying it each day that we were traveling and continued with the amazing results. [00:17:08]
So whenever I learn about something new that's working great, I love to share it with you. So I'd highly recommend you give Magic Mind a try. Visit magicmind.com/TheSavvySauce, and then you can get up to 56% off your subscription or save 20% off of your one-time purchase when you use the code SavvySauce20 at checkout. I can't wait for you to try this too, so let me know about your amazing experience as well.
For you personally then, how did you find this vocation that was so life-giving to you?
Jenny Boyett: Well, I was in the business world for many years and I was kind of moving up the corporate ladder and my husband was moving up the corporate ladder and we were like, Okay, something's got to give. We knew we wanted to have kids. We went to North Point and he said, "Why don't you just put your resume in and just see?" And I'm like, "What would I do? I never thought I would be working at a church." [00:18:07]
I did and there was this director of assimilation, which was helping married couples get connected into community. And I love connecting people and I think with moving around so much. I always really wanted to help people find their people. And so it was a really natural fit.
I took the job, which then helped us even move towards having a family because I wasn't going to be traveling and was going to be at home. It worked out really well. It was just a path that God led me to. And it was when I was working there for about a year, we realized that, Oh, no, we're not getting pregnant. We've got some fertility issues."
And there wasn't a better place on the planet to be working to have resources and others that had navigated adoption and fertility. And so I felt like I had a plethora of great counsel right there at my workplace.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I feel like you just can't say enough good about North Point Ministries. One of their satellite churches is actually when I became a believer, that was the first place that I became a church member and experienced growth there. [00:19:13] So love North Point.
Jenny Boyett: Awesome. Yes. It's been such a blessing to me personally and professionally.
Laura Dugger: Well, and then going back to your marital relationship, at what point did you start to notice some red flags?
Jenny Boyett: Well, hindsight's always 2020, right? So there were red flags prior to even getting married. And I think that's something that God and I had to navigate because He had showed me signs and I think it absolutely has something to play with my temperament of being yellow, always assuming the best in people and choosing to fill in the gap with the best all the time, even if there's a reason why not to.
So I definitely think that played into my temperament as well as wanting to just move forward, you know, not wanting to see something and just thinking, "Okay, if I don't look there, I won't see it."
I would say now in hindsight, they were there all along. But for me, I would say it was probably maybe our second or third year of marriage when he was traveling a ton and I just started to feel more alone in the marriage. [00:20:19] He wasn't as emotionally connected and work was absolutely taking a priority in his life. And my role was kind of, you know, taking a step back. It started feeling like you've often heard people say, we were roommates living in a house together versus life partners doing life together.
Laura Dugger: And when you were in the midst of this, so thinking of you as a yellow, probably just reframing and assuming the best, how did you handle that growing distance? Was that something that you brought up to communicate with him? Or did you keep that to yourself?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah, I did bring it up quite a bit. And then we just filled in the gaps when we were together, cramming in as much fun in life as we could. It was almost more so when he was managing it when we were together, he started to be more present. But then when he was away is when it started to... I would get down.
And so I just kind of chalked it up to, you know, I don't like to be alone at my house and so it's probably a me problem. [00:21:25] And just started to kind of process that internally versus externally. I definitely had checks in my spirit for sure before we got married. And then I would say, yeah, by that third or fourth year of marriage, I definitely was having checks in my spirit.
Laura Dugger: So how did everything unfold from that point forward?
Jenny Boyett: You know, we got really plugged into our church. Everything on the outside looked like it was okay and I just felt a gap in our emotional connection. I felt like as he was talking about it, he definitely made it feel like it was a "me" problem. That I was needy or that I had expectations that were bigger than what he could provide for me. So I definitely took that on as that this was a "me" problem.
It wasn't until, gosh, I would say the girls were born and then chaos starts unfolding just with life and you're surviving, not necessarily thriving, that I started noticing there was quite a bit of depression in him. [00:22:29] He was withdrawn. Much more withdrawn than he had been. I really felt like I was raising... I was doing everything. I was working full-time and I was raising the girls by myself. And I just felt alone a lot of the time.
We definitely had talks along the way and I would bring it up, and again, it was reflected to me that this was a me issue. I was the only one that was experiencing this. But I would say it was definitely in about 2006 and 2007 when I noticed he started drinking more and was just continuing to be gone more and more and more. He was traveling maybe 200 days out of the year and I just was very, very alone.
We were in a small group and kind of with a mentor and one of the mentors verbalized, "Hey, is everything okay? I'm seeing some signs." I think that was a relief to me because then I could finally talk to someone about it and say, "Hey, is this odd?" [00:23:29] I didn't really know what was normal and what wasn't normal in a sense of an emotional connection with your spouse. And so him kind of bringing it up and asking me about the drinking and asking me about the travel really allowed me to begin to extrovert some of those concerns that I had.
Laura Dugger: So that check in the spirit then that you're starting to process and verbalize with the mentor couple, were any of those questions in your mind confirmed?
Jenny Boyett: Absolutely. Yes. I think that's what really opened the door for some more authentic communication between the four of us and having conversations, kind of digging into some things, and asking more questions.
At that point there was some behavior that would come up that just seemed very risky or off the wall that was addressed more often. So we were tracking with them. I felt like everything was getting out on the table. So I felt a ton of relief that we were going to be headed in the right direction. [00:24:33]
At that point, my husband had said he was an alcoholic, so he had admitted he was an alcoholic. And so I felt actual relief during that meeting because I thought, "Okay, we know the problem. I'm not crazy. This is what's going on. And okay, we can get help for this. He can get help for this."
So he got a counselor, started, you know, attending AA meetings, got hooked up with a sponsor. So I was like, "Okay, we got that under control. Now let's move on." But it was very short-lived until there was like another hiccup that kind of came to light that it was like, Oh, oh, this isn't all that it is. We need to figure out something more.
What that was, was some excessive spending. So I found that our entire home equity line had been maxed out without my knowledge, and I was floored. Then we were meeting with this mentor couple then and got into a MoneyWise program. [00:25:31] And it was like, How did this happen?
I think what now I know is that there was an addiction swap. There was refraining from drinking, but it then had switched to spending, excessive spending. And it was on everything that you could imagine. I don't pay attention to like rims on cars and that kind of stuff. I mean, we're talking about watches that are $10,000 to new rims to new clothes.
I would obviously notice some of the clothes, but was then told, "Oh, that's not new," or "I've had that," or "No, you're crazy," or, "Oh, a client bought that for me" or something like that.
Again, I think if you want to be deceived, it's probably easy to be deceived, but it's also to keep in mind that if someone wants to deceive you, they will deceive you. You know, they get very good at telling you in your face, in your eyes things that they are desperate for you to believe are true.
I think it was the perfect storm. My yellow temperament that wanted to believe and that somebody that was a really good liar kind of came together and it was the perfect storm. [00:26:39]
Laura Dugger: Wow. Just going back, when you were saying some of that risky behavior, just some of those red flags, did that look like drinking while driving or things like that?
Jenny Boyett: Well, at that point he had given up drinking. So it was more like getting a tattoo or planning a last-minute trip for us somewhere really expensive. I mean, I definitely think the tattoo was a really risky one, but I didn't even know about. Just showed up as it's a "surprise!". Just very impulsive behavior. Like a lot of also last-minute business trips would come up. "Oh, I got to leave tomorrow morning." It's like, "What? I didn't know about that."
It just felt like definitely more spontaneous impulsivity and some risky behaviors coming in there. Not so much drinking and driving, although that very well could have been happening, but I didn't know that at that point. [00:27:38]
Laura Dugger: Okay. So you're seeing this change in the person unfolding right in front of you, more impulsive behavior. And at this time, so you're working full-time, you've got triplet daughters. Did you also have your fourth daughter?
Jenny Boyett: Well, we did. So in 2009, we had my fourth daughter and that's really when a lot of the risky behavior started coming up. The tattoo would happen. So, yes, it was definitely as things got more chaotic in our house, his behavior became a little bit more withdrawn and more self-focused, I would say, on the things that he needed to do.
Like I remember when I was literally eight and a half months pregnant, he sprung on me a last-minute two-week trip to China that he had. And I was in tears. Like, "Are you kidding me? You can't leave. I can't even bend over." It's just one of those things that I'm like, "Okay, but he's got to work." But that was very impulsive. It was nothing was going to stop that trip. Even my tears weren't going to stop that trip. [00:28:39]
Laura Dugger: That's such a hard place to be when you feel like you have no influence over your spouse and you see them making these poor decisions right in front of you and not caring for you and the children at that time when you really needed it.
Jenny Boyett: It was really hard. It really was. At that point, I also knew he was suffering with depression. And so trying to be very sensitive to what his needs were and knowing... As a yellow, I remember we were talking one day and I said, "Well, on a scale of one to ten, what number are you?" And he said a two. And I thought, "Oh my gosh, I don't know if I've ever been a two. I'm a yellow, I'm always like an eight or a nine. Like I'm trying to see the best.
So I was really trying to walk on eggshells to make his life as easy as possible so that it wouldn't plunge him into either addiction or being depressed, any self-harm, or any of that. [00:29:39]
Laura Dugger: I'm just guessing that that pressure, that you're holding all of that, at some point that has to fall through where you can't be the savior for everyone. Was there anything that, kind of that proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, was there anything that happened after that point?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I would say as only God could do, He had lined up some women in my life all during this time and had me going through this hope program. Now it's called Renew at the church. And I was in counseling. So I really feel like all of those things almost were a basis to walk me through the trauma. Like it kept me hanging on, so that I told people, they'd go, oh, let's just go out and have a drink. And I'm like, "If I go out and have a drink, I'm not going to stop So I can't do that." I may binge on Netflix or something.
I was able to have women in my life and people really guarding, you know, having guardrails for me because it was such a trying time. [00:30:39] I just thought of the thing that broke the camel's back that actually was another piece of this risky behavior was that he bought a gun and we had not even talked about owning a gun in our home. And I'm not for or against it. It just was a big surprise to me to one day hear, not even from him, but from a family member that he had shown the gun to. It was like, "What's going on?" That's when we just started to dive in.
I had constantly felt like there was more to the stories that I was hearing. And so that's when I really went digging. He was on a trip one time and I just started digging through a bunch of stuff and emails and receipts, and that was when I had found out that it wasn't just our home equity line. There were five or six credit cards that I didn't know about. There was some inappropriate relationships with coworkers that I had found emails with. There were receipts for drinking.
So, at this point, all of it's going on. [00:31:38] There's drinking, there's inappropriate relationships with other women and there's excessive spending. And so it all came to a head at once. It was 2011 and it was, oh my gosh.
He was away on a trip, and so I'd called the, you know, the mentors and the people that had walked with me. And we kind of had to come to Jesus and brought him in once he got home from the trip and was like, "Okay, what is going on? Something's got to change."
At that point, I just knew there had been infidelity. I felt like I didn't even know the life I was living. It was very, very hard. But as some people that are listening or those that may know this, you know, when you back somebody who is definitely struggling with either addiction or mental illness into a corner, it's not that they just fold or not all the times. I always say there's two different people. There's broken people and busted people. Unfortunately, my husband was busted at the time. He wasn't broken. [00:32:36]
So he spent the next several months really just trying to deny and fight through things and makeup very outlandish things that tried to disprove what we had already proved. So it was a very difficult time.
Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?
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Was he diagnosed with any mental illness during this process?
Jenny Boyett: He was. He was diagnosed with bipolar, bipolar II, and got some medication. [00:33:42] We started seeing a psychiatrist. Honestly, again, at that point when we had that diagnosis, even though I couldn't prove infidelity, but I knew there was drinking and I knew there was spending, I felt as my yellow self a sense of hope of like, Okay, we've got another answer. Once we get the cocktail that they call it for mental health figured out, life will go back to some sort of manageable process, and he won't have all of these issues because we'll have the right medicine.
Unfortunately, that was not the case. It took quite a while, and the medicine never quite got to a place that leveled him out, if you will. In hindsight, I know that you have to be honest with your psychiatrist to get diagnosed properly. And you also have to refrain from some of the addictions, some of the substance abuse while you're trying to get the right medicine, which now I know he didn't do. So the medicine was... we never got to a place that I felt like we were normal again. [00:34:42]
Then the pastors and the people that were walking with us basically said, "Hey, if there's any more lies or any more spending, then you've got to separate." And so that's exactly what happened. So we spent the January in 2012, 30 days separate. That seemed to change his life. He hated being away from our family. He started seeing a new counselor and was having biweekly meetings with some pastors. We were all super encouraged that this was going to be the game changer.
I felt like the Lord spoke to me that time that if there's anything that I do figure out or that comes to light, I'm going to forgive him and we're going to start new. That was really hard. I was like, Did I really hear that from the Lord? But that's what I did.
So in our counseling, trying to come back after that 30-day separation, I was really ready to hear whatever truth he had to share, infidelity, more spending, addiction. [00:35:48] The counselor gave us two weeks to come up with what we call our personal inventory list. If there was anything that either one of us needed to share so that we could start on new ground.
That two weeks was really hard because I'm thinking every day, like, What am I going to hear? How is this going to be? This is going to be terrible."
The meeting ended up being on Valentine's Day of all days of 2012. We got into the meeting with the counselor and the counselor said, "All right, let me hear your inventory." And he said he had nothing. I just sat there and I thought, "Oh my gosh, that's not true." I knew it with every bone in my being that wasn't true. That pretty much is what sent us on this quest for truth. I believe everybody that had been walking with us, even the counselor knew that wasn't true.
If you fast forward, it took about until November of that year for truth to come out. [00:36:52] And in that meantime, we tried to make it work. Then he eventually was busted again by spending. So he was given the choice to go to treatment or to move out and he chose to move out.
He absolutely moved out and abandoned me and the girls. He moved his paycheck and he just completely went downhill from there. It wasn't until his company got involved November of 2012 that he finally was taken to treatment. Wasn't willing to go, but was taken, didn't have much of an option. At that point, he was fully involved with other women, spending money, and drinking. So it was the low of the lows. But that was in November of 2012.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So since that point, you've been separated, since 2012 when he chose to abandon the family. Is that right? [00:37:52]
Jenny Boyett: No, not since then. Well, I almost feel like it's a lifetime miniseries and it's so intriguing. But then I realized I'm the main character and it's almost unbelievable. But we have not just been separated since 2012. So he went to treatment. It was a 90-day treatment program, and we had a friends and family weekend and I went and he literally was a changed man. It took 90 days. He admitted all of the infidelity was true, all of the spending.
I found out, I mean, a list of personal inventory of things that were just shocking. It included friends of mine. It was just the low of the low. But he got out of treatment and went to a transition home and lived there for five months.
At this point... sorry, I missed a big part... right before he went into treatment in September, October of 12, he was spending excessive amounts of money and really had started cashing out all of his 401k. [00:39:02] And so I had put together with the suggestion of others, it wasn't my idea, but basically a board of advisors. And this was five near and dear people, friends, pastors, counselors that could guide me because I did not have the emotional bandwidth or the objectivity to know what to do when.
So this board would meet often and we would guide my next step. And so we knew in September that my next step was that I needed to file for divorce if for no other reason, with the hope of getting him help. So I did file for divorce and I had him served. So divorce was on the treatment. But I put everything on hold when he went into treatment because my hope I never really... I didn't want a divorce. I just wanted to get to the bottom of things and I wanted to have a foundation of truth. So we had that.
But he got out of treatment and we had a meeting and he said, "I will sign these divorce papers and ask if you would hold on to them and give me a second chance because I'm going to spend the rest of my life pursuing you and the girls and make this up to you." [00:40:16] I couldn't believe it. But it was almost like an insurance policy, if you will, because during his worst times, he was getting very nasty with threats of financial support for me and the girls or custody of me and the girls. So these papers were written up all to my benefit and he signed them and I signed them and the counselor held on to them.
So for two and a half years, we went to counseling often. We were very involved in the recovery community. He did move back in the house, but he moved into the basement and we did not sleep in the same bed or anything. But for all intents and purposes, after about the first year, we were 100% moving towards reconciliation.
It just was really hard. And forgiveness can take a while. Even not just for me to forgive him, but I think it was taking a while for him to forgive himself. [00:41:17] And so he asked me to remarry him and we renewed our vows December 19th in 2015.
So he went into treatment February of 2012 and we renewed our December of 2015. It is only because of God. Only because of God. I mean, I never thought that I would be able to kiss him or be intimate with him again after everything that I had heard of the infidelity. And I can honestly say God absolutely mended my broken heart and that I fully trusted him again. Fully trusted him again. I would have bet my life that nothing would have ever, ever, ever happened again after everything we had been through. But that wasn't in the cards.
Unfortunately, July 2017, it came to light that he had relapsed, specifically with drinking, and was unwilling to get back into recovery. [00:42:29] So I pulled out all the stops again and got the pastors and the people and even the recovery community and we tried to rally again to get him back into recovery or back into a place that he could even be sober-minded to hear things. And he was unwilling.
Again, he chose to move out. Unfortunately, it's been pretty downhill since then. He has lost jobs, cashed out all his 401k, filed bankruptcy. There's just been a lot of consequences to that. Did go back into treatment because of another company that he had worked for. But unfortunately, that was just a really short program that was more of checking a box.
So we divorced officially in 2018. Since then he hasn't been super involved with the girls at all until recently. [00:43:31] I feel like he is maybe getting to be in a better place. Time will tell. But we pray for him every day. I would absolutely love for him to be able to be a co-parent and to invest in our girls because I know how much they desperately need that. But it's been a really hard road for them in this whole process.
So we just are all continuing to be in counseling and trying to be the best versions of ourselves while praying for their dad.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you for sharing everything that's led up to this point, even to today. As you are looking back, I think that this is going to really encourage someone, especially if they're married to someone who struggles with addiction or has that bipolar diagnosis, there are not many safe places where they can have these candid conversations in the church. [00:44:31]
So as you've continued staying in God's care through this whole process, what do you think it was that God and others did to carry you along? And what was most helpful?
Jenny Boyett: I would say that it's really hard for other people that haven't walked a walk like I have to do anything other than listen. Because until you experience that, it's very easy to say, Oh, I would divorce him or I would leave him or I wouldn't put up with that. Or I would never divorce him. I would never leave him. I would never break my vows.
I would say until you're in that situation, the best thing that you can do is listen. If they're asking you for advice, obviously you share it. But if they're not asking you, bring a meal, offer to take their kids to give them some alone time, get them a massage. [00:45:34] You know, really just love them and be there for them and try to not offer your opinion a whole lot. Because it's hard. You're not going to please everybody. I mean, I had as many people frustrated that I got back together with him at that point as I did that when we broke up at that point. And so, you know, really just trying to understand.
Ask questions more so of what is your friend feeling and thinking? I remember one of my friends, instead of judging while this had been going on for so many years, she said, Tell me where this energy is coming from for you to fight for him for so much. And I thought that's a great question because I was able to look at her and I said, I want to be able to tell my girls when they are 23, 24 years old and say, "Mom, what happened?" That I can look at them and I can tell them that I literally did everything in my power to keep our marriage together and to give them the dad that I know is the dad that he'd want to be. [00:46:40] And until that point comes where I feel like I've done everything, I'm going to keep trying."
I felt like that gave her an enormous amount of insight and also an ability to support me in that. But then also the verbiage to say, you know, when the second time happened and he chose to leave again to say, When is enough? Like, when do you think enough will be enough? Because I'm just curious.
It really helped open some dialogue for me and also then helped open my eyes of like, yeah, I'm so worried about the story that my girls are going to be living if they come from a divorced home but I've forgotten about the story they could be living by living in the home we're currently living in with a husband that's an addict and them watching their mom continue to not have a firm line in the sand of what's acceptable. [00:47:39]
I think living with somebody and walking with them and doing life with them and asking the questions will then give you the ability to guide them when there's a time to guide them.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you for answering that. I almost feel like it's not even fair to ask you to analyze all of that, but I think that is so helpful. Also then speaking to the husband or wife, the spouse who's married to someone who hasn't looked the way that they've expected, is there any encouragement or even practical wisdom you would want to share with them?
Jenny Boyett: Yes. I had a counselor tell me and ask me about a picture of my husband as a child. And I have this picture of him with his little bowl cut and this little striped shirt. He's probably 8 years old. I look at that picture often.
And the counselor said, "Look at this picture. [00:48:38] Do you think that this little boy ever wanted to grow up to be the man that he is right now?" And I said, "No." And he said, "Whenever you're talking to him or interacting with him and he's pushing your buttons, I want you to think about that 8-year-old little boy, because he's still in there."
That was a game changer to me because I knew the potential that my husband had. I knew the good man that he was, that he had lost his way. And instead of bowing up and matching his energy of deceit and lies and false accusations, it took Jesus for sure. But if I could keep that vision in my mind and try to always talk to him in the way that I knew he wanted to be, it would be easier and it would speak life into him. [00:49:37] And don't get me wrong. I'm no Mother Teresa. I did plenty that I can go back and go, Oh my gosh, I lost it on that occasion.
But I would say for anyone that has a husband that you're struggling with right now or a wife and you are so angry and so frustrated and so hurt, think of them in a sense of, I can promise you they never wanted to be who they are right now. Ever. And you may be the only person that can speak to them to their potential and try to use your influence to have them be the best version of themselves. And I would encourage you to use that influence for good.
Laura Dugger: That's an incredibly gracious and insightful response. I am curious, does he know Jesus?
Jenny Boyett: He does. In fact, he would say that he was saved. I mean, he played the part and did things that were expected of him. But it was his second night of treatment the first time in 2012 that he felt like Jesus met him. [00:50:41] And he accepted Jesus, and then he was baptized on Father's Day of June 2013. So he does know Jesus.
Sometimes it's hard to see the fruits of the Spirit, but I believe that Jesus more than anybody is calling him to live the best version of himself and is with him and is just patiently waiting for him to turn back towards him.
Laura Dugger: Hmm. That brings me to one more question. Jenny, what is your hope then for the future?
Jenny Boyett: Gosh, my hope for the future is that he becomes sober and well and the best version of himself following Jesus with a passion, and that that in turn then has him pursue his girls with the same passion, to be in their life, to be somebody that is wise and that guides them and is protecting them and wants to shepherd them throughout the rest of their years. [00:51:48]
Laura Dugger: We don't usually do this, but would it be okay if we all prayed together right now?
Jenny Boyett: That would be great.
Laura Dugger: Heavenly Father, thank you for Jenny. Thank you for her willingness to share this. It's not just a story, Lord. It's her life. And she so generously and vulnerably entered even into all of that pain for someone's benefit today, Lord. I'm not sure who you're trying to reach or all of us, but I pray that these words would land tenderly that Your Holy Spirit would enlighten what we are called to do with it.
But I just want to lift Jenny up right now. I want to thank You for her. I want to thank You for the way You created her and her temperament and for gifting her with this energy and passion and zeal to not only pursue You, Lord, but to pursue Your ways and walk in Your ways and apply Your wisdom and the fruit of spirit is so abundant in her life, Lord. [00:52:52]
I just pray for him right now. I don't know his name, but you do, God. I pray that You would bring sobriety right now. And I pray that you would do a mighty supernatural work. I pray that you would gently and tenderly care for all of the hearts involved, all four of their daughters, and for him and for Jenny, and that you would do something radical.
We know that our stories are all for your glory anyway, Lord, but I just pray redemption and restoration and healing and that he would turn toward you and your voice would become louder. And even that the demons would be away from him, the voices that are or the spirit that's trying to bring him down and tempt him and trying to overcome him, Lord. We know that you are stronger. You are greater. You are more powerful. You are amazing. You're the only one that can do this work. So collectively, we all come together, we beg You, Lord Jesus, to do a mighty work. [00:53:53]
I pray that when you turn his heart to you, Lord, that he would then love you. You would gift him with that ability to love you and then also to love and pursue with that passion and protection for his girls. We pray this all in Jesus' name. Amen.
Jenny Boyett: Amen. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, thank you for just being so vulnerable, letting us into this story, and giving us so much encouragement just to continue seeking Jesus. You're just amazing, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Well, it's all God, let me tell you. Because if it was me, I'd be in a fetal position in my room and I've been there the last eight years. So Jesus can sustain us. And it's true. If you can lean into him, it is so true.
Laura Dugger: Amen. As a fellow yellow, we can't end here. We're going to lighten it up. [00:54:54] So my last question for you today, you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Jenny Boyett: It's going to go a little heavy again, but what I would say is don't ever stop fighting for your spouse. Even though my husband and I are now divorced, I am still praying for him and fighting as much as I can for him to be the best version of himself and the best dad. And that means dying to myself a lot.
So I would say any wife that's out there that is just ready to give up and is frustrated, just fight, fight, fight, because the enemy wants nothing more than to tear families apart. The grass is not greener. I'm telling you, it's hard on both sides. I'm not saying hang on forever, but I'm saying do whatever you can do and use your influence for good. That's what we can do. So we can always fight for each other instead of against each other. [00:56:03]
Laura Dugger: That's a good, good word. You are just such a joy to spend time with. I just want to echo it one more time that so much fruit of the Spirit is evident in your life and in this conversation. So thank you for being my guest, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Oh, thank you. I hope to see you again.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:57:07] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:58:13]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:59:15]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 06, 2024
Monday May 06, 2024
*DISCLAIMER: This episode contains thematic material and is not intended for young ears.
233. Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 37:23 (NLT) "The Lord directs the steps of the godly. He delights in every detail of their lives."
Topics We Cover:
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Chaotic Childhood
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Meeting Josh and Surrendering to God
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God's Personal Way to Reveal Loving Reminders to Her
Tiffany Noel had a chaotic childhood experience filled with loss and abuse. Tiffany's life speaks of the goodness of God and how He continually reveals Himself in intimate ways despite being the Creator of the Universe. Tiffany studied at Bradley University getting her undergraduate degree in Psychology and her Masters in Human Development Counseling. She combines her experience in the "hard knocks of life" with her education to relate to and encourage other people who have survived trauma. Most importantly, Tiffany uses her faith in God to point people to the ultimate hope found in Jesus Christ. Tiffany and her family are active members at Summit Point Church in East Peoria, IL.
Tiffany currently works as a Psychotherapist at a group practice in Morton, IL called Genesis Counseling. Tiffany has served in this calling for the past few years. Prior to working at Genesis Counseling, Tiffany worked at OSF Adult Behavioral Health for ten years. She also has direct work experience with the homeless and geriatric populations. Tiffany has a heart for people who feel unseen, unheard and unloved. Tiffany mixes humor, tough love and Biblical truth to provide a safe space for her clients to rest, grow and heal. Tiffany resides in Morton, IL with her husband Josh, their two children, Lily and Oliver, and their two rambunctious dogs, Scooby and Daphne.
Book an appointment with Tiffany by emailing tiffanyn.genesis@gmail.com
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Tiffany Noel is my guest today, and we met through our mutual friend, Julie Roth. Because of Tiffany's effervescent personality, humor, and transparency, I considered her an instant friend that first time we met for coffee. I was so grateful she opened up to tell me more about her life experience, and soon after that initial meeting, I invited her to be a guest on the podcast. [00:01:18]
She's now going to share her redemption story with us. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Tiffany.
Tiffany Noel: Thank you, Laura. Happy to be here.
Laura Dugger: So glad to have you join. Will you begin by taking us back and tell us a bit about your childhood?
Tiffany Noel: Of course. Yes. I actually grew up in a small town of Chillicothe, Illinois. In my early years, I was raised in a Pentecostal church. Mom was a believer, took us every Sunday, every Wednesday. But my dad did not attend church. And I remember that was part of our childhood was praying for Dad's salvation. And I remember one time him losing his coat and keys, and we prayed that they would be found. It was like three months later, they were found. I honestly can't even remember where, but it just stuck in my mind that God answers prayers from a very young age.
Mom was a stay-at-home mom. Dad worked outside of the home. Unfortunately, my dad was an alcoholic. [00:02:20] So if he wasn't working, he was usually either drinking or sleeping to recover from a hangover.
The rare occasions that he was present, I do remember him being very silly, very funny. He would make Donald Duck voices, and he was just kind of goofy and mischievous.
Outside of my dad's addiction, my childhood for the first eight years was pretty typical. It was just a lot of sleepovers with cousins and best friends and visits to Grandma's house, camping, holiday celebrations. We went to a lot of garage sales.
However, things quickly turned in the year when I was eight, and it's one sleepover that definitely will be forever etched into my mind. At that sleepover, it was my older sister who's 18 months older, and we would always switch kids. So the oldest daughter in my friend's family went with my sister and the younger one I stayed with at her house.
We were actually just playing, putting together a puzzle and I remember hearing, "Your dad's going to die tonight." [00:03:24] And I, being raised Pentecostal, was very aware of the enemy. And I was like, "I rebuke you, devil, in the name of Jesus." I immediately said that. Unfortunately, the same exact thought popped back into my mind again in a different voice and out of my own thought. And it just said, "Your dad's going to die tonight. Your mom's going to call, and they're going to say they're taking your dad to the hospital, and he isn't going to make it."
Before that sentence even ended, I heard my friend's mom pick up the phone that rang and said they were dropping my sister and her friend back home, because my dad was being rushed to the hospital. He didn't make it, but we didn't actually know that until later.
Our friend's mom had put us to bed at their house. I didn't fall asleep. Felt like I had this information that no one else had. But later, my mom and pastors picked us up and took us home, and told us the news that my dad didn't make it. For quite a while, I honestly was in a lot of denial. Although my dad didn't travel for work, I was convinced that he was on a business trip, and that's kind of how I went along with my life. [00:04:31]
From that point forward, we kind of just lived with a spirit of fear in our house. I just remember my mom would sleep on the couch every night. We never went back to our bedrooms. She slept on the couch, and we'd sleep on the floor next to her.
I remember in my adult years talking to Mom about that, and she said that she was just very scared that my dad's, quote, bar friends would come and hurt us somehow. She even said she realized how unrealistic that was because they were such nice people. But it was just the way the enemy was making her very afraid.
Fast forward, it wasn't even a year later when my mom met what she thought was her knight in shining armor at a revival at church. She was very afraid that she couldn't support us kids, me and my sister. She didn't have an education, and she really thought she needed a man to be able to provide for us. [00:05:33]
So when she met this man, it was very quickly after they got married that we realized he was very much a wolf in sheep's clothing. Specifically, he definitely treated my sister and I like slaves. We were required to do all the chores inside and outside the house. These weren't like typical childhood chores. It would be like pulling weeds until our fingers bled, cleaning the garage that was already cleaned, that we had just cleaned. Now looking back, it was all about control for him and manipulation.
He would tell us we could go to a slumber party if we cleaned our room, and we would meticulously clean our room. Then he'd come up and run his hand over the shelf and just knock everything off and say it was not clean and the bed wasn't made crisp enough.
Other types of manipulation and emotional abuse would include, he was a hunter and he would put dead deer carcasses and hang them up in the garage and then ask us to go out and get something, unbeknownst to us, the deer was hanging, dripping blood, and just obviously startle and scare us. [00:06:39]
He would force us to take care of our animals. I had pet rabbits and several dogs, cats. But basically, as soon as we started to bond with them, he would take them away. I was actually forced to, can't make this stuff up, but forced to eat my pet rabbit and later informed by my mom that he would drown our kittens. He sold, I'll never forget, Buffy, my favorite dog, just because, according to my mom, he said we were getting too attached, which is what you're kind of supposed to do as a family pet.
Then, unfortunately, his controlling and emotional abuse escalated to sexual abuse as I aged. Time and time again, he would use pepper spray, spray into the bathroom so that me and my sister would come out naked. He would force us to, well, force me to rub his feet until one day it became more than that. I would often go to bed crying, just immense feeling of shame for what was happening. [00:07:40]
Other instances of just control that I can remember is he'd hold me down and tickle me until I had to go to the bathroom and I'd pee myself. I mean, I was a teenager, so it was very humiliating. And then on numerous occasions, I would fall asleep on the couch and wake up to him touching me.
When my Mom and him divorced, we actually found a hole in the bathroom door that looked directly into the bathtub. So the man that was supposed to protect and provide for us completely betrayed us. He also spent all of our Social Security money for my Dad that was supposed to pay for like braces and college and just daily expenses.
He opened a pet store, bought a really expensive car, just was very frivolous with our money, and meantime, didn't hold a job for longer than a few months at a time.
So after years of abuse, I finally told my mom that the sexual abuse was going on. Unfortunately, at first, my mom didn't believe me. I understand now, I really do. She was just trying to survive. [00:08:41] But at the time, it was very hard that someone was supposed to protect you and love you didn't believe you.
I couldn't take it anymore, I ran away to my grandmother's house. And grandma was sort of a safe haven, a place that I got a little taste of childhood. My mom would beg me to come home and I would refuse. She said that one night her and my stepdad got into a big argument and my mom brought up the allegations, and he said, quote, "Tiffany wanted it." And that was when my mom knew I was telling the truth and she was married to a predator.
She immediately kicked him out and shortly after I came back home. However, unfortunately, the guilt and shame my mom and I both carried led us both to really backslide from our faith. So after losing my father, and then experiencing that hypocrisy of the Christians in my life, I started to seek out worldly comforts.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. [00:09:43] It's not an easy story to hear. Obviously not an easy life to live at that time. And understandable how everything felt chaotic, even your faith at that time. Eventually, you met a man who you would later get engaged to. Will you pick your story back up there?
Tiffany Noel: Yes, of course. So after all of that took place, and like I said, I went to the world for comfort. Specifically, I kind of got wrapped into drinking a lot of alcohol to basically just numb my thoughts and feelings, experimented a little bit with drugs, had some relationships with men, just seeking to be validated to get attention.
And in all honesty, I would always say I would never get married, never be in a relationship, I thought. I used to literally say that all men would either abandon me or they were perverts. [00:10:42] That was kind of what my mind frame was.
So when I met Josh at a mutual place of employment in 1998, I actually just graduated from high school and was working just as a telemarketer and going to college full time. He was working there as a second job. I just started to notice him, and he was just a little different than the men I had known before.
We ultimately started dating in 1999 after he invited me to his low-pitch softball games. Those were some fun times. But we both met during a time where we'd both gone completely away from our Christian upbringing. We were both living a very selfish life of comfort, pleasure.
However, when one of our party friends started going to church, we both kind of noticed a difference in her. We really specifically noticed a peace and a contentment in her that wasn't there prior to her surrendering her life to Christ. [00:11:42] And I wanted what she had.
So after she invited us to church, I ended up trying the church out and asked Josh if he'd come along and he said, of course. We both started attending services and got involved. Then at that point, we both rededicated our lives to Christ and fully surrendered our whole life to him.
We actually, just because I think it's noteworthy, so other people know they can do it too. After we were together, I want to say close to two years of having sex outside of marriage, when we decided to rededicate our lives to Christ, we actually stopped having sex and lived together for convenience. I was going to Bradley, he lived close, but we did not have sex for a solid year before we got married.
So I think that's important just because I think so often, you know, when we fall into sin, we think we were kind of trapped in it instead of realizing that it's never too late to ask God for strength and self-control to turn your life around. [00:12:44] So that's what we did.
We've been actually together now for 18 years in October. So we were able to really stick it out. And he was able to prove to me that all men aren't what I thought they were.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Grace Catering Company is located just off of Alta Lane in North Peoria. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible to hear how God was just starting to plant seeds, beginning to redeem your view of men and your experience with Josh. So at this point, you're engaged, can you catch us up to that part of the story?
Tiffany Noel: Yes. Actually, at the time I was in school, grad school, and so Josh and I had quite a long dating and engagement life. We were actually engaged in 2002 and married in 2005. My family actually always would tease me and say that they loved Josh more than they loved me. [00:15:46] He fit right into our family, kind of just... My mom always said it would take a special man to marry Tiffany, and he was the one that was the special man.
So he continued to just work in our life, and we ended up just going through a myriad of different heartaches and stressors that kept us both continually being sanctified by Christ and surrendering to Him again and again.
We endured a lot of heartache, but nothing really could compare to the sudden loss of my mom in August of 2018. I distinctly remember driving a few months prior to what had happened, and I was on my way to work and just praying as I often did. It was only like a 15-minute drive. It was kind of just the way I started my morning. And during my prayer time, the word "change" came into my mind, followed by the words "trust me".[00:16:47]
I cried and told God, "I promise to trust you." And in all honesty, I thought, you know, a third child, a job change that I never in a million years would have guessed what He was actually preparing me for. I realized it was sort of time to put my actions where my mouth was and trust that God is good and His timing is perfect.
Because my younger sister, Caitlin, I didn't mention her earlier, that was really the good part of my mom being married to my stepfather is that she had a child with him. Her name's Caitlin, and she's my younger sister by 10 years. She, my older sister, Sonny, and I have had a really close bond with all three of us and my mom.
Caitlin actually was due to get married in 2018 and my mom had called me that morning. I was on my way to get my son's first year photo shoot done. [00:17:51] That was the biggest stressor in my life at that point was, "Will my 1-year-old smile." You know, it was all I really was concerned about, thinking about.
My mom called, and my friend, actually the friend that started going to church, same friend, Sarah, was in the car with me. And we joked and laughed with Mom and just said goodbye and never thinking that would be our last conversation.
Mom was actually out shopping for shoes. It was a Thursday, and Caitlin's wedding was on a Saturday. She was out shopping for shoes to wear to the wedding, and she ended up suffering a massive stroke. She was in the parking lot of a department store, and someone called 911 and rushed her. They ended up sending an ambulance and rushing her to the hospital.
My sister got the call, and then she called me and just said that we needed to go to the hospital. My older sister and younger sister were actually ironing something for the wedding. They were ironing tablecloths or something. [00:18:53] So we got the call. Sarah stayed with my kids. Luckily, she was there. It was all a timing thing.
We all went to be with my mom in the ER. Basically, we had to make some really tough decisions, but we all knew that my mom would not want to live without quality of life. They said they could do a surgery, but they pretty much guaranteed that she would likely be a vegetable. And we knew Mom wouldn't want to live that way.
We'd actually all been praying for Mom to be free from her own addiction to alcohol. And we felt like, you know, sometimes God answers our prayers differently than we think, but we knew that this might be the freedom that He was intending for her.
So while we didn't understand God's timing of allowing this to happen two days before my sister's wedding, we knew that Mom's time to be born was literally written in the destiny way before my sister chose her wedding date, you know, to believe that there is a time to be born and time to die and that all of our days were written before we were even born. [00:20:06]
So God started giving us signs, though, that very night in the hospital and chose to give us more signs at my sister's wedding that my mom was safe and he was indeed very good.
Specifically, the first thing that happened was my mom had a breathing tube in, and after a conversation with the doctor, we had agreed to have it removed. My sister didn't feel comfortable with being in the room, but I couldn't bear the idea of my mom being there and could pass without anybody with her. So I chose to stay.
During the few minutes that the doctors and everybody left the room that I was alone with my mom, I remember just sobbing and holding your hand and singing the lyrics to Amazing Grace. I hadn't thought about this song or sang this song in a long time, and I can't sing, by the way. It wasn't beautiful, but it was just what was on my heart and mind.
The next morning, my little sister actually sent a text saying she knew that everything was going to be okay because in the shower that morning, she started singing the lyrics to the song Amazing Grace. [00:21:09] And she literally quoted in a text saying, "I haven't thought about that song in forever." I just quickly texted her back and revealed that that was the song that I had sang to Mom when they were taking out her breathing tube. And just gave us all confirmation that God heard us, saw our grief.
We felt like we could go forward with the wedding. That was one of our big things is like, should she still have her wedding? Everything was paid for. Everything was planned. But we all felt like, Should you have a wedding when you're in that state? But we really felt like that was kind of God's permission. I don't know if permission is the right word, but He just gave us that feeling that it was okay.
My mom loved frogs and she loved hummingbirds. So at the wedding, when all of us girls were down in the basement of my sister's mother-in-law's home, there was a window well, and we were all getting ready, and this big toad jumped into the window well and was like watching us. [00:22:18] And then at the same time upstairs, the guys were getting ready and there was a hummingbird pecking out the window.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think my mom came back as a frog or a hummingbird. I mean, make this clear. But I do think that we serve a really awesome God who cares. He literally cares that we were hurting. He wanted us to know that Mom was with Him.
We had set up a little memorial chair with a picture of Mom and just a saying and there was a butterfly that sat there the entire ceremony. My brother-in-law even tried to touch it, but the butterfly didn't move. Like it just sat there. It's like those things that were continually to happen were just to... They're more than coincidences.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that has brought me to tears so many times already in our conversation. But just how incredible at the same moment that we don't know everything about heaven, but that she was... it seems her presence was in both places at the same time. [00:23:21] That that really is supernatural.
And how God delighted in every detail of your lives to give you peace in a very personal way. And God began doing something else very personal to reveal loving reminders to you. So, Tiffany, will you share that with us now?
Tiffany Noel: Absolutely. It still just sometimes just catches me and gives me awe of the way He works. But shortly after my mom passed away, my sisters and I really felt strongly that we wanted to do something to memorialize Mom. Just remember her.
My younger sister, Caitlin, had already had like two or three tattoos. But Sonia and I were always like, "No way, we would never do that. We never wanted to be in pain." Like we wouldn't pay to be in pain, that kind of thing.
I walked into her house one day and she looked at me and she goes, "I'm going to say something crazy and you're not going to believe this." And before she even said it, I said, "You want to get a tattoo?" And she was like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Yeah, me too." [00:24:26] And we all had the exact same idea. So it's right here on my wrist and it's a hummingbird. It has the word "free" because mom's free from her addiction.
But when we took the idea to the tattoo artist, after she started to draw it, she added this little heart right at the hummingbird's beak. And didn't think much of it. But kind of from that point forward, I started recognizing that I was seeing hearts a lot more often. And it honestly took me a while to be like, I'm seeing hearts more often. Am I just making this up in my head? I really was like, Okay.
So we saw them so often, and I say "we", me and my kiddos, that they would call them Gigi hearts. Lily was only three and Ollie wasn't quite one when mom passed. But Lily is a special little soul and she has a really good memory. Her and my Mom had a very special relationship.
And so anytime we would see the hearts, Lily and Ollie, and they still to this day will be like, "Mom, a Gigi heart," and kind of take me to whatever they found. [00:25:34]
But what I recognize is that grief, it comes in waves is what I always talk about. One minute you're completely fine, you're living life and you're like, I got this. You know, I'm going to see my mom in eternity. And then the next minute, a smell, a song, a place, it just smacks you right off your feet. It just hits you.
So those moments would happen, and when they would happen, I started to be more intentional and specific in asking for God to send me a heart. One incident I can truly remember is we were at a little family vacation at Indiana Dunes Beach, just for like a weekend or a couple-day getaway, and my daughter and I were both just kind of feeling down at the same time. We were having one of those we miss Gigi days.
So my daughter being only three was like, "Well, mom, let's ask God for a heart." [00:26:35] Her faith still just like... you know, I'd say like faith like a child still blows my mind away. But she literally closed her eyes, we were in the water, and she prayed, "Jesus, tell Gigi, we miss her. We love her. We wish she was here." And then she was just like, with faith, "Just send us a heart. Send us a heart-shaped rock." And it wasn't like, can you, will you? It was like, "Send us one." That was convicting to me. She believed it would happen. There was no doubt in her mind.
Within seconds, we looked down and we both saw this reddish color heart-shaped rock. We picked it up and her and I both were sensitive little souls, we both burst into tears. It just has been sort of constant since then. Constant as in it never stops, but it's sporadic, you know?
It usually is either when I'm really feeling down and I ask or kind of out of the blue, almost like when God knows that I need it, like I just start to feel sad. [00:27:42] But I just feel like I'm just constantly humbled at how God loves us. He understands our grief and He gives us tokens of love and comfort.
I can't lie. I'll send you pictures. I sent you some that you can even maybe post. But I've seen heart-shaped rocks, shells, fruit, vegetables, acorns, leaves. The other day I was eating sausage and I cut into it and there was a heart in the middle of it. I mean, at this point I just laugh because I'm like, God has such a sense of humor. He's so funny. He just sees us and He cares is what always just blows my mind away that He cares. You know, He's obviously got a lot of other things to do and He cares to provide comfort. I've seen so many different things.
Another one I have, one incident, a bigger one I have to mention because that just sticks out in my mind was when we were in North Carolina. I was having one of those I miss... I always call them "I miss my mommy kind of days". And I just prayed silently. [00:28:47] I was kind of walking on the beach close to the shore and I just told God, I'm like, "I know that I'm selfish. I know that you've proved yourself time and time again, but I need another sign that mom's okay and that she's safe with you."
I was more specific because the Bible does tell us to be specific in our prayers. And so I asked to find a heart-shaped shell. Again, no lie, seconds later, I looked down, and right at the shore was a shell, but it wasn't the shell that was in the shape of a heart, which I thought was even cooler. It was a heart etched in the shell.
The reason I think it's so cool is because so often I'll find something and people be like, Oh, I think you're just seeing a heart or whatever. It's almost like the doubters. And this one was just such a heart in the shell that there was like no way that everyone wasn't seeing the same thing I was.
Then there was another shell that was sort of opened up that I thought truly looked like angel's wings right next to it. [00:29:46] Again, it was just like this reminder that the maker of the universe loves me and you, all of us enough to take the time out to reassure us of this love.
Now it's been almost five years since Mom's been gone and I just keep my eyes out for God's creation etched into the shape of a heart because I'm looking and because I know I'll always find them. And each time I do find one. Over and over, it seems like it revives my weary, doubtful little soul.
Even this morning on my way here to record, I went to a local coffee shop and they had wrote, "You are loved on the top of my coffee." And right after it, it was a heart. And I immediately giggled because I was, you know, preparing and nervous for this. And I was like, okay, "God, thank you."
Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. [00:30:46] Now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
I have been so encouraged by the pictures that you send. I remember hearts in Cheerios and when you cracked open your eggs one time and so many unexpected places. But it's also interesting how many of these are in nature.
If you don't mind, I just want to share a story of how God even let me in on it one day. Mark and I were on Moonlight Beach in Encinitas, California and I was just struck by the beauty of these water-worn rocks in that area. Most of them were the same. They were all smooth and gray and shaped like ovoids. But you came to mind in that moment. [00:31:45] And I asked God if he would be willing to show me a heart for you. Just like you said, seconds later, it was the very next thing I laid my eyes on. My eyes fell on the only heart-shaped rock I encountered that day.
I snapped a picture of the beach and then a picture of the heart stone and sent it to you to remind you in that moment how you are very loved by God and loved by others. I found out then later that day that we were actually allowed to take a few of the stones from the beach. So I went back to search for that heart, but I never found it again. That somehow made the experience feel even more miraculous.
Like you said, He sends you these reminders of His love and presence. I loved in one of our email exchanges when we were leading up to today, you signed off "still finding hearts". [00:32:49] In addition to still finding hearts, what else are you up to these days?
Tiffany Noel: Just have to add in there that I call those God winks. Actually, at one point I started looking into, do other people see hearts? I found out that a lot of people actually do see hearts after a loved one passes. A lot of people, they named them God Winks.
I remember when we had met once, you had told me about a friend who had recently passed. And so I was also praying that you would find a heart. And that's when you sent that, I was like... I still tear up and get goosebumps because I just think he answers our prayers when we ask.
I've been married to Josh for 18 years, like I've said earlier. We have two miracle babies, is what I call them. My daughter, who's named Lily, she's seven, and in the second grade this year and Oliver, who's five, in kindergarten. [00:33:51] Well, obviously all babies are miracles.
I have to add that my two were actually conceived after 10 years of marriage. We had infertility issues. And so we tried some fertility treatments. We became licensed foster parents. And we were told by several experts that we would never be able to conceive naturally. They didn't know that we serve such a great God. I got pregnant after 10 years of marriage. And after that many years of trying, 100% natural.
So they really are my miracle babies. Just because they're miracle babies doesn't mean that they're easy to raise. I wish that was the truth. But it's not. They're very sanctifying. But they're my life, along with my husband. We live in Morton, Illinois. We like the feeling of being in a small town. [00:34:50]
We also have two fur babies. We have Scooby who's 12. He's a Lab Weimaraner. And we have Daphne, who is my newest baby. She is a Golden Retriever and she's a year. And she has rocked my world. I can honestly say I will never have a puppy again. I love her. I'm learning to love her. But she's worse than a toddler because she chews shoes and pees in various places. Yeah, very, very humbling and sanctifying to have a puppy as well.
I actually work as a psychotherapist at a group practice called Genesis Counseling. Prior to Genesis Counseling, I actually worked as a psychotherapist at OSF. I like to work mainly with adults and couples, just struggling with various mental health issues.
Laura Dugger: And you are a fabulous counselor. So if anyone wants to reach out to you for an appointment, where would you direct them? [00:35:56]
Tiffany Noel: If they're actually wanting to schedule an appointment, they could call at (765) 505-6111 and they could either leave a message or Dr. Emma Bucher will directly answer if she's available. If you want to reach me directly with any questions, my email is the best way to reach me. And that's tiffanyn.genesis@gmail.com.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add links in the show notes to make it easy if somebody's driving or can't take notes right now. But Tiffany, you may already be aware, we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Tiffany Noel: My savvy sauce is ask. We serve a God who wants an intimate relationship with us. He knows as humans we'll have doubts and want and need reassurance of His existence in our daily lives. [00:37:01]
I don't believe God is shocked or offended when we ask for tangible signs that He has not left us or forsaken us. One of my all-time favorite scriptures since childhood is found in Matthew. And it states, "Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened."
I truly believe if it's an alignment with God's will He will answer our prayers. There is nothing that's special about me. I see heart symbols in various objects because I ask and then I seek and then I find evidence again and again of the goodness of God.
Laura Dugger: Wow. When you share it with us, it builds up our faith too. You are such an incredibly faithful woman. I have loved your sense of humor and you're hilarious to spend time with. But you are also able to go deep. You're able to be real and transparent. [00:38:03] And in the short time that we've already known each other, I have just experienced so much joy getting to be with you. I'm humbled by even your prayer when we lost Heather. It was about three weeks later that found that heart-shaped rock for you. So God works in miraculous ways. And you've directed us back to that today. So, Tiffany, thank you for being my guest.
Tiffany Noel: You're so welcome. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:39:04]
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:40:05] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:41:08]
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 29, 2024
Monday Apr 29, 2024
232. Stories Series: Testify to Glorify with Richard Gamble
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 96:3 (NIV) "Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous deeds among all peoples."
Richard Gamble is the founder and visionary behind Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer, the world’s largest database of hope stories. Aspiring to make hope visible and renew faith in prayer, Gamble first had the idea for the inspirational structure in 2004 when he was carrying a cross around Leicestershire at Easter to lead people to think about Jesus. He prayed over the idea for ten years until 2014, when he felt a nudge from the Holy Spirit to begin acting upon it.
Gamble has spent many years rallying support for the Eternal Wall, a process which has tested his humility and obedience to follow God’s will. Having successfully garnered hundreds of partnerships who want to see the unique project come to fruition, the iconic monument will be a legacy project, future-proofed to inspire and engage generations, supporting them in their spiritual journey.
A Christian since 1990, Gamble studied at Bible college before working for British Gas. He eventually left the corporate world to make his mark in entrepreneurship, co- founding both a software business and a marketing consultancy. With a love for soccer, he became CEO of Sports Chaplaincy UK, and was former chaplain of Leicester City Football Club (before they were famous and won the Premiership).
Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer
Eternal Wall, Crowd Fundraiser Website
Questions We Discuss:
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Will you share your childhood story of a near death experience?
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How did God call you to build the Eternal Wall of Prayer?
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Will you share three of the stories submitted so far for the Eternal Wall of Prayer?
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
126 Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Prepare to hear miracle after miracle that will leave you changed. Richard Gamble is my guest today, and God has given him a clear and thrilling purpose in his life. I can't wait for you to hear more of his stories and his calling, and to also discover ways you are invited to be an active participant.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Richard.
Richard Gamble: Hey, thank you very much for having me on your show.
Laura Dugger: It is such a pleasure to get to host you today. [00:01:16] Just to get to know you better, I would love to hear your story. So will you start us off with your childhood story of a near-death experience?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, gosh. You've done your research well there, Laura. I think I was about six years old, and I was on holiday with my parents, and they said to go and get my sister who was in the swimming pool. And I leaned over to shout at her, it was tea time, and lost my balance and fell into the pool.
I can remember it really clearly, this sort of weird experience of sort of floating downwards. I wasn't even panicking because I just didn't know how to swim. I'm just going down in the pool, and then a guy in a white suit was walking past, took off his white jacket, dived into the pool, pulled me out, rescued me. [00:02:22] I think he then took me to my parents, and then just disappeared. So it might have been a bloke just happened to be going past in a white suit. I have suspicions that it was an angel.
Laura Dugger: That is so incredible. What a powerful experience, but it makes me wonder, at this time, what was the faith environment like in your home growing up?
Richard Gamble: Oh, no, no faith whatsoever. In fact, even the opposite in that, you know, normally you would christen a child in this country when they're born, but I wasn't christened because there was no faith. So I didn't go to church, didn't have anything like that.
But then when I was 11 years old, I learned that if you put a glass against the wall, you could listen to the conversation next door. So I thought, "Oh, I'll give that a go." [00:03:22] And I overheard my mom saying that she had to go to a hospital for tests for cancer. And even though I had no faith upbringing, I just sat by my bed, put my hands together, and just said, "God, can you look after my mom?" Which He did. But I felt in that moment, the way I describe it, it's sort of like a huge hand around me going, "It's going to be all right." And that was the moment for me as an 11-year-old where I believed that God was alive and wanted to be part of my life.
Laura Dugger: Goodness. At this time, what was that like for your family as well?
Richard Gamble: I didn't really talk about it that much. My mom then had a son that they did decide to christen. I got christened at the age of 14. Fortunately, the vicar didn't try and sort of lift me up and dip me in the baptism pool there. [00:04:25]
But I sort of went on my own exploration, really, Laura. I can remember at that age going to different churches and just seeing religion. I wouldn't have described it like that at the time. But I remember just sitting there and thinking, "This doesn't mean anything."
So I really, on and off, as you do when you're a teenager, sort of went to different places and every time just thought, Oh, not really interested in that. Then when I was 20 years old, I found myself in a hotel — I was on a sort of a university graduate employment scheme - and there were 20 of us debating about whether God existed or not. And I was like, "Yeah, He definitely exists."
One of the 20 there was a Christian and they just invited me to come to church. And I was like, "Yeah, right." [00:05:27] So I went to this church and I'm like, "Wow, this is real. I could tell by the way that people were singing the songs, whether they were interacting, that it really meant something to them.
Then I had this moment where I experienced exactly the same thing that I experienced when I was 11 years old, what I would now describe as the presence of God. So that was the moment for me, I was like, gosh, God is real. He is alive.
Somebody then that night said, "Do you want to come out?" And he took me out to a pub and shared the gospel with me in a pub. And I was like, "Right, what do I do?" That has been a motivating factor for me in my life, that I had an experience with God when I was 11 but I had to wait nine years till somebody shared the gospel with me.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I wonder if that emboldened you to share the gospel with others, because I think of your faith one Easter in particular. [00:06:33] Will you share what you did that day?
Richard Gamble: Yeah. It sounds a bit weird this, Laura, but yeah, I will. I felt that God tell me to carry a cross around my county. It took a bit of persuading to persuade my church leaders that this was a good idea. But I just wanted people to think about Jesus during Easter.
So I walked, I think it was about 80 miles around the county to try and get people to consider the cross instead of... you know, we have the tradition of buying chocolate eggs and all sorts during Easter. I was trying to go, Easter is about Jesus.
I started to pick up ad hoc that there were loads of people that were having conversations about this in their schools and their colleges and in their workplace. [00:07:33] And probably the best one was my father, who again, he's not a Christian, but he was in a governmental meeting. In the middle of this governmental meeting, this lady said, "I saw the weirdest thing today." Said, "I saw this bloke dressed in a suit carrying a cross. What's all that about?" And my dad then said, "Well, that's my son." And then he proceeded to share the gospel with the whole room. A non-believer in a governmental setting is then saying, "This is the gospel. This is what my son believes."
So, for me, that was a real catalyst in my life that said, actually, if we do stuff creative to try and reveal the nature of Christ, it's going to reach a lot of people.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And that seed has continued to bloom. We'll get to that current part of your story, but I just think how incredible that God gave you the grace to be obedient. [00:08:34] Because so many times when He speaks to us, I don't know if this has been your experience too, Richard, but it doesn't make sense in the moment.
It is encouraging to read about Noah building an ark before there's even rain or different things that sound odd in the time, but He shows us, a lot of times, on the other side of obedience what He's doing.
Richard Gamble: Yeah. And of course, Laura, it's a process, isn't it? Because I do remember when I was in my early days of being a Christian, I remember I felt the Holy Spirit say, you know, "Help that lady with her bags." And she was carrying loads of bags. So I said, "Oh, do you want me to help?" And she said, "Yeah." And I helped her. And that was it.
I was expecting her to fall on her knees and say, "What shall I do to be saved or something like that." And she went, "Oh, thank you very much." And that was it. Never saw her again. [00:09:33] I learned from that initial experience the importance of just being obedient to those little nudges. And we don't always know. We don't always see.
My wife and I now, you know, if we feel God's told us to do it, we do it. The danger can often be if you get lost in the detail. But if I do that, what if that happens or what if that happens? We've trained ourselves over the decades, and we've made mistakes as well because we're human, but we've trained ourselves to like, if God gives us the nudge, let's do it. I do believe that even if I've misheard God with the nudge, that He'll love the heart of wanting to be obedient to Him.
Laura Dugger: Yes, I am in complete agreement with you there. You're mentioning your wife. Can you give us a snapshot of your life currently?
Richard Gamble: Yes. So I'm married to Sarah. [00:10:34] We just had our 25th anniversary. We went to Venice, which is beautiful. I've got three, three kids, two boys, one girl. And, yeah, life is life is bumpy at times, but overall, it's good on the journey.
Laura Dugger: Well, and along the journey, when... There's something that I want to draw out. You had just mentioned that God was calling you to show Him in creative ways. You have a current, very creative project that's exciting. And I believe it's approximately 20 years in the making so far. So where did this vision come from to create an eternal wall of answered prayer?
Richard Gamble: So it was while I was on that walk carrying the cross. At the time, I was also being considered for leadership of the church. And I was just praying and I sort of in my heart said to God, "What do you want me to do next?" [00:11:37] And this picture, vision, idea just sort of flashed through my head. I've learned that's one of the ways that God speaks to me, that it's almost like a picture that goes really quick and then you have to grab it to really sort of meditate on it and work out what it is.
But I just felt Him say this idea about building a national landmark, a wall made up of a million bricks where every brick represents an answer prayer. That's really where it was birthed.
So that was 2004. I sort of had 10 years carrying on with life, you know, starting my family and all that that entails and running a software business. And I was sort of thinking about it, talking to people about it, got lots of weird looks every time I mentioned it. But then nine years ago, I just felt the Lord Jesus say to me, Right, green light, time to time to get going. [00:12:39] It's been an incredible adventure. We are incredibly close to achieving this now. We're working towards an opening date of 2026, maybe 2027. And yes, it's been exciting.
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Laura Dugger: I know I've heard you say before that our enemy can't do anything about the blood of the lamb, but he will try to silence the powerful word of our testimony.
Richard Gamble: Yeah. I was reading that scripture. I've read it many times and I thought, "Gosh, if there's one scripture that the enemy doesn't like, it's this one, because it's sort of like an instruction booklet. Like, here is the way we can get over his schemes.
Of course, if that's true, the first half, He's stuffed on the blood of the lamb. We all know that's a done deal. So what He is going to do is He's going to try and silence the testimony. And I think we are seeing that in increasing measure in the Western world in lots of different ways, some of them subtle ways, political correctness, where it's sort of seeped into the church. [00:15:51]
You know, sometimes you'll hear people go, Well, I know that person's been healed of cancer. But come on, let's not say anything because you don't want to offend the person who hasn't been healed of cancer, which is completely contrary to scripture.
In the UK, particularly, there's the sense of, well, I know God has answered a prayer. But why brag about it? And I'm like, Well, I've got a reason. There's about 200 scriptures that talk about proclaiming the deeds of the Lord and how important it is.
I mean, even this week we've had the advertising standards agency have blocked some of our adverts because we talk about miracles. There is an agenda now to silence the testimony. And that's why as Christians, we've got to stand up and we've got to proclaim the deeds of the Lord. We've got to tell people that Jesus is alive, He's still listening when we pray, and He answers. [00:16:51] He's still active in our world in a very real way. That's the message that we need to get over.
Laura Dugger: Yes and amen. Richard, I really do want to say thank you for fighting against any testimonies being silenced. I'd love to hear more of your journey. So what has the pathway looked like from that initial idea to this current reality?
Richard Gamble: Well, let me be really frank. I don't know what I'm doing. It's the first time I've ever built a national landmark. I'm not a practical guy. I'm not an architect. I'm not an engineer. I'm banned from doing DIY in the house because I've set fire to the bathroom, you know. So I've really had to learn to pray in a deeper way.
And I think that's the privilege of the journey. When you take a dream, the privilege of going on that journey is you actually get to know God in a more intimate way. [00:17:54] To describe what we're doing for your listeners, the idea of this landmark iis that it is a giant infinity loop where it's got a million bricks on it. And people will be able to point their phones at any one of the bricks and the phone will light up and it will tell them the testimony, a time where somebody has prayed and found hope in Jesus's answer.
So part of the adventure has been trying to raise the money to just get the design. Then we have to get the planning. Then once we've got the planning, we have to build within a certain time frame to secure the planning.
Then, of course, you know, we are building something similar size to the Statue of Liberty, to give you an idea of scale. You know, it costs a lot of money. And then we have to raise the funds. And so every step of the way, there are times when myself and my team and the volunteers are like, "This is just beyond us. [00:19:01] This is utterly impossible."
One of the lessons, if I might share, Laura, is I love the scripture where... it's Elijah, isn't it, who pours the water on the wood? And what I've learned from that story is when he's asking God for fire to come down from heaven to light the wood and then he pours water on it. And what I've learned from that is if you're faced with a situation that's impossible, impossible has no gradients. It's impossible for God to set fire to the wood unless God does it. So pouring water on it is sort of irrelevant.
That's why, for us, there's been a number of times where we've been faced with impossible situations. To the world's eyes, those impossible situations have just got worse. I mean, I've been trying to raise money through a pandemic, for example. [00:20:00] And yet, for me, I'm like, well, it was always impossible anyway. I just need God to move. Nothing's changed. And that has been a real sort of fundamental for us in our approach.
Laura Dugger: You're reminding me of something I read this morning. I was rereading from a book, Rhythms of Renewal by Rebekah Lyons. She and her husband, Gabe, have actually been previous guests on the podcast. So I will link to their episode. But one quote she says is, "The call and assignment of God is never possible without God." And that's what I hear you saying.
Richard Gamble: Nice. Yeah, that's really good. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, why do it? Man, we have so many impossibilities on this. But the thrill is when you overcome them and you go, Wow, God, look what you've done. Look what you've done.
One interesting part of the journey is just seeing how people react and seeing people going, you're never going to do this, you're never going to do this. And then they see God do something. [00:21:09]
Let me give you an example of a story. So we needed to find the land. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? If you want to build a national landmark, you need to build it on something. I went to Bethel Church in Redding, California. Don't know if you're familiar with that, but we went there for a conference, my wife and I and we just thought, "We need to pray for land." Nobody knew who we were or what we were doing.
And then this lady came up to us and she said, "I've got a word from God for you." And the word was, "God wants you to know He's got some heavenly land prepared for you." Now, that to me is such a thrill that I've gone one side of the planet and somebody has no understanding what I'm doing or what I'm praying for, has then basically said, "Hey, God wants you to know," which is a confirmation.
So I then tell my team back in the UK, this is what God has said, and one of my team says, "Well, if God's told us He's got some land, I'm going to ask Him where it is." [00:22:11] So this team member went away and prayed and I just got an email from her with a Google map circling this map saying, "Hey, this is the land that God's going to give us." Which was like, Okay.
And then I looked at the land and the person who owned that land had emailed me just a few days before. Which, you know, what are the chances? Then I meet with this person, I share my heart on this desire to proclaim the deeds of the Lord across the nations by building a landmark. And at the end of the meeting, I told him that God had given me this vision in 2004 and then he tells me that God had given him the same vision in 2003. I mean, staggering.
But I still didn't tell him about this woman circling the land because I didn't want to emotionally or spiritually sort of manipulate the situation. [00:23:14] So he said he'd go away and pray about it, about how he could help, came back and said, "Oh, we've decided to give you some land." But it wasn't the piece that was circled. And I was like, "You know what? That's good enough for me. I'll take it."
The lady who circled the land was going, "This is not the right one. This is not the right one." I'm like, "He's just given me a piece of land worth a million pounds. I think we'll just... Thank you, Jesus." But after six months, he phoned me up, really awkward conversation, said, "I'm really sorry. I can't give you that land anymore." And then he gave me another piece of land. Still not the one.
Six months later, get another phone call from him saying, "I'm embarrassed, but I can't give you that land either." And I spent the night praying. Then his father said, "Look, loads of people tell me, 'Oh, God's told me to do this. God's told me to do that," he said. "But when I heard Richard's story, I said, "I believe him". And I don't want to be the man who had the opportunity to give him land and passed it by. So give him the best piece of land." [00:24:23]
So he paid an architect to look at all the land that they owned in the country and the architect came back with the piece that the woman had circled in the email to me. How amazing is that?
Laura Dugger: I have goosebumps everywhere hearing that. Incredible.
Richard Gamble: And I think when you've got a story like that, Laura, and we have got loads of them. I mean, literally loads of them. What it does is when you face those impossibles, I recalibrate my mind. I've had to do that even in the past couple of weeks where I've had a situation, I'm like, "Jesus, that is beyond me." But then I go, "Wait a second. Before I start to get fear about what that fact means, I'm going to remind myself of the things that God has done on this project so far. The things that God has said to me, the impossibles that have been overcome, and remind myself that God is not one who changes His mind." [00:25:24] And that then gives you the strength and the faith to keep pressing on.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Then when you share those stories, it is so faith-building for each of us. My takeaway from that is the reminder that honestly, we are often trying to teach our four young daughters and God is still trying to teach me this. It is "trust and obey".
Richard Gamble: Yeah. I was listening to a song this morning, I think of Lauren Daigle, about even when the answers aren't there, I'm still going to choose to trust in You. For all of my team, that's been the journey.
Can I share a fun story with you that God did for us?
Laura Dugger: Please do.
Richard Gamble: So we had earlier this year a ceremony on the land to bless the land and just to pray God's blessing and to consecrate the land for all that He's going to do on it over the next hundred years or so. [00:26:27] And we had about 300 different church leaders from across the UK and a broad spectrum.
One of my team was pulling together the agenda for the day and I said, "Look, can we not do anything weird?" I mean, I come from a charismatic background, but I'm just sensitive to other streams of the Christian faith. And I said, "Let's not do anything weird." So she sent me the agenda and in the middle of it... And I don't know if you've heard of this. I haven't before. But it said "blowing the shofar horn". Have you heard of a shofar?
Laura Dugger: I have not.
Richard Gamble: No, it's a Jewish horn that's supposed to cleanse the land. And I was like, "What are you doing?" I said nothing weird. And she was like, "Yeah, but I've talked to the team and we really believe this is what God wants us to do." And I was like, "Okay, all right."
So two weeks later, they still haven't found the shofar and they can't even find somebody to blow the shofar. [00:27:30] And I'm just going, "Guys, we've got too much to do. We've got this big event to organize. Let's just blow a trumpet. It doesn't really matter." And they were like, "No, no, no. We really believe that God wants us to blow the shofar." And I said, "Well, you've got a day to sort it. Otherwise, we're going to Plan B and blowing the trumpet."
So they went off to pray and they came back to the office and one of the office juniors said, "I've just received this weird email." And the email basically said, "I believe that God has called me to blow a shofar across the United Kingdom and I wonder whether you'd give me permission to blow it on the land." I mean, it's just amazing.
And the thing that really challenged me, Laura, I was a bit cross with God about it because I was like, "You know, Jesus, there's quite a lot of things that I'm praying to you about at the moment and blowing a shofar is not really in my top 50." [00:28:32] But interestingly, it was for God. It was more of a priority.
I think if you want to align yourselves with God, you have to align yourself with His priorities on the journey. And so, that for me was quite a humbling and quite an interesting thing to go, How? Why is that more important to you than the money, for example? And of course, the answer is because in God's economy, the money's already sorted. So, yeah, there we go.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I love these stories so much. I'm just wondering, how do you remember all of these? Are you also documenting this along the way?
Richard Gamble: Yeah. So we've got the BBC doing an audio documentary. They've actually released half of it, which I can give you the link for, actually, Laura. And then I've also got somebody doing a film documentary. We want to try and capture the stories because they're just so crazy, some of them. [00:29:36] It's not easy working on this project but you have moments where the team are just blown away and then other moments where people go, "Yeah, that's how it works. That's how God seems to be working on this project.
We've had real blessings in terms of people that when we've had a real need for the right person, that God has provided that right person just at the right time.
So an example would be when we were getting our planning permission, I think you call it zoning in America, I went to a church meeting and I said, "Hey, I've been praying this morning and I really need to find somebody to help me with planning." And it just so happened that in that particular congregation where I was on that day was one of the leading planning barristers for faith projects in the United Kingdom who then proceeded to give us his services for free. [00:30:37] You know, we've just got a catalog of those. And it just is so faith-building.
Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
As you're sharing these stories, it makes me think people have already submitted their stories and their answered prayers to you, even though this project is not complete yet. Could you share maybe three of the stories that have been submitted so far for the eternal wall of prayer?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, happy to. I mean, you get different favorites at different times. But probably a good way to do it is to share with you the range. We get a lot of stories where God moves in the suddenly. [00:31:41] We've had one single mom who hadn't got any food for her kids. You know, she wasn't massively developed, very young in her faith. So she just opened up the Lord's Prayer and started reading through that: Give us this day our daily bread. And as she said bread, the doorbell went and there's a guy from the supermarket saying, you know, that the order has just been canceled next door. Do you want this food for free? And there's a loaf of bread and enough food for her family for a week.
Obviously, we love it when God speaks like that. But of course, there are times when we've got to be more patient. I've got this story, which is from America. We've had a lot of people from the States giving us stories, which is fantastic. I just read a bit of it. She spent years praying for her dad's salvation. Ten days before he passed away after a short battle with cancer, I shared Christ with him. We had conversations about God that seemed to take a lifetime to have. [00:32:49] But in that moment, God gave me the words and I'll be grateful forever. My dad then asked me if it was too late for him to come to know Jesus and my heart leapt out my chest as I assured him it was never too late. And I led him in a prayer of salvation.
So I love that one because, you know, that's probably a prayer that's been going on for decades. You know, sometimes those are the ones that we forget, but just as powerful. You know, all of this is in God's timing.
Another one is one of my favorites is through COVID where this missionary, this young lady felt called to go to Nicaragua. And she arrived in Nicaragua and then it was the pandemic hit and she's suddenly in a lockdown. You can imagine all the prayers that she must have had and believing that God wanted her to go to Nicaragua. [00:33:48] And then all of a sudden she's there, but she can't see anybody. Crazy.
She then starts sort of putting feelers out saying, "Can I help anybody?" And she gets this email from this guy saying, from America who basically raised the money to send some equipment to Nicaragua three years ago. And they'd lost the shipping container. So he was like, you know, "If you can try and find the shipping container, that'd be really cool."
So she managed to get down to customs and over a matter of days basically ended up finding the shipping container, opened it up and it was full of PPE equipment and were able to supply eight hospitals in Nicaragua with all the equipment they needed to handle the pandemic.
What I love about that story is I can imagine that guy raising all that money and then just feeling utterly bereft when they've lost the shipping container. [00:34:58] But the reality is. It was all in the timing of God. And that shipping container was found on the right day in the right moment to supply all those hospitals. I love the way that God often answers our prayers, not in the way we expect, rarely in the timing we expect. And I think that's a good example.
Laura Dugger: Incredible. Richard, I'm also curious, what is your process for finding and collecting these stories of answered prayer from around the world?
Richard Gamble: Well, we were asking the church to come and be a part of it. It's really that simple. If you're a Christian, God has definitely answered one prayer for you, which is his salvation. But we want to get a whole range of stories. We're trying to build this million-plus database of stories of answered prayer. [00:35:54] So we're asking people to go to the website, which is EternalWall.us and just share what has God done in your life.
Here's the beauty of this. Deuteronomy 4:9 says, "Don't forget what your eyes have seen. Don't let it fade from your heart and your memory, and make sure you tell what God has done to your children and your children's children." Well, this is a way that we can do that, because as soon as you share your story, that story will be put in a national archive and that story is going to be shared all over the world long after we've left the planet.
Because what people will be able to do... let's say somebody in North Carolina, they hear about the Eternal Wall, and they go, "Huh, I wonder if there are any stories from North Carolina on there." And they type in and they'll be able to see all the people from that state that are sent through their stories of answered prayer. [00:36:58]
Or they may have a diagnosis. Maybe they've got ankylosing spondylitis and they've just been to a doctor. I say that because that happened in my life where I was diagnosed with an incurable disease. And they'll come across my story and thousands of other people's stories where they've had a diagnosis, but the God who can overcame and they were healed.
So we want this to be a legacy for all Christians across the world that you can share your story, a long after you've left this planet, people will still be reading your story and they'll be finding and discovering the God who answers. I don't think there's any better use of your time than we can do, to be honest.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So grateful. Thank you, Lord, for your healing story. That is a way that we can take a next step. [00:37:57] Is there any other way we could come alongside and participate?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, absolutely. So we need prayer. This project is absolutely built on prayer. We've got a team of people praying all the time. I think I've got 100 people this month fasting and praying for breakthroughs for us, as an example.
We need volunteers to help us find stories of answer prayer. There are loads on social media, for example. It's just a case of people digging them out or finding them or even reading historical books, because we're not only sharing the stories from this generation. But we're sharing them, you know, from 8,500 and onwards. And some of the things that we're digging up are incredible. But we need volunteers to do that.
We need donations as ever with all these things. I'm thrilled to tell you, Laura, that we've raised the money for the monument. [00:38:58] How incredible is that? We just need to raise the money now for the technology and the visitor center. So we need help there.
I'd really encourage your listeners to take some time and share their stories. You may have one story that comes to mind, but I'd really encourage you to try and do 10. Because when you do that, I think you tend to get a deeper level of story.
My one that I'd immediately think of was ankylosing spondylitis. But then when you do 10, you start to go a bit deeper and go, "What has God really done?" And some of the best answer prayers, I think, have to do with character. You know, God has changed my character. I'm a much more patient man than I was when I started this project.
I think of the way that God has helped me in my marriage. So there's a whole range of different stories that we want to share with people who are searching and trying to find the God who answers. [00:40:03] I would really encourage your listeners to help us in that way.
Laura Dugger: Well, again, we would be happy to provide links in the show notes for today's episode where they can find your website and find these next steps. Would you also be willing to share more of your story of healing?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, definitely. It was devastating for me when I had a bit of back pain and then go to a doctor and then he gives me this diagnosis. And I had it for many, many years. I went forward for prayer, Laura, I cannot tell you how many times.
Of course, if you go to a healing meeting, there's always a word of knowledge about somebody with a bad back. I always used to go for it. I was just like, "Okay, maybe today, Lord. Maybe today's the day."
I had it for maybe about 20 years. And then I went to the doctor's and he said, "Look, you know, Mr. Gamble, we can give you the medication to slow this down. [00:41:08] They said, "Your back is like a car in a traffic jam. We can slow it down. But one day that car is going to get to the end of the road and you're going to be stuffed." And I thought, "Huh, okay."
I sort of left that meeting with the doctor quite angry, and I thought, "I'm not going to let the word of an expert overrule the word of God in my life. I'm not going to let him prophesy doom to me." So I changed my prayer and I was like, "Lord, I just pray that you will stop the car. Just stop the car, Lord."
Then I went to this meeting and this guy very differently said, "I'd like to pray for somebody who's got a disease in their spine." And I sprinted. I literally sprinted to the front. I wanted to make sure that I was first to be prayed for. And he said, "Do you mind if I put oil down your back?" And I was like, "No, go for it. Go for anything." [00:42:11] It ruined my shirt, by the way, but it was a price worth paying.
He poured oil down my spine and I just felt heat, just a weird heat going through my body. And I knew I'd been healed. A few weeks later, I went for an MRI scan and the doctor sat down and said, "Well, you're a very lucky boy because this disease has stopped." And then I was able to explain to him that luck was nothing to do with it. That healing must be 15 years ago now and I'm still good. It's not perfect. I still have the ramifications of having that disease in my body for such a time. But I do know that the disease has stopped and I praise and thank God for it.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much because it's called incurable and just points to the miracle of Jesus. I'm going to continue sharing one other quote again from rereading Rhythms of Renewal, where she writes that God is going to offer us, quote, "the grace to fall into rhythms that will fill you with confidence and courage, confirm your calling and give you strength to carry out His purposes." [00:43:29]
Richard, again, it reminds me of your story and what you're doing with this eternal wall of prayer. I'm just assuming that scripture has sustained you throughout this process. So is there any other passage that has been especially meaningful?
Richard Gamble: I mean, there's loads. I spent a Christmas one year just going through the scriptures where it says proclaim the deeds of the Lord. And there's so many. There's so many. I think for me, Psalm 145 just talks about proclaiming the deeds of the Lord to the great assembly. So when we have time to reflect as a team, which we don't have too much, but you just go, We are actually fulfilling scripture. We are actually taking what God is set to do and we're actually doing it. [00:44:29]
And the point of this vision is to proclaim those deeds of the Lord, as it says in Psalm 145, not only to the great assembly, but to the nations. The other one for me is Habakkuk 2:14, where it says, "For the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." And our dream is this. So this is not... it's not a UK landmark that we're building. I don't believe. I believe we're building a globally iconic landmark.
If you think of Christ the Redeemer in Rio de Janeiro, that's globally known. But if you Google it, as many as I know, because we've looked at the numbers, tens of millions of people Google that every year, you just find out about a French guy that built it. [00:45:27]
But when people hear and see the Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer, they're going to Google it and they're going to find a database of a million answer prayers and more. They're going to type this storm of life that they're currently going through and find people who've been in the same situation as them and find that Jesus has answered.
Now, if we do that well in the way that I believe we're going to be doing, then I think we can start to see the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Those are the things that keep us going, that we're playing for big stakes here. And that's why we need the whole church to get on board with this project and tell the nations what Jesus is doing.
Laura Dugger: Let it be so, Lord. Amen. I'll just share one other thing. This was the most important piece that I read this morning. [00:46:31] I've said on the podcast before, it's amazing how the Lord will direct me to certain scripture and then it plays out in the conversation that we get to have that day.
This is from the Amplified version of Acts 20:24 that I want to share with you. It says, " But I do not consider my life as something of value or dear to me, so that I may [with joy] finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify faithfully of the good news of Go's [precious, undeserved] grace [which makes us free of the guilt of sin and grants us eternal life].
Richard Gamble: Love it.
Laura Dugger: It is just a joy to get to talk with you today. Is there anywhere else you would direct us to go after this chat to get to follow along with your journey?
Richard Gamble: Yeah. Good ways to follow the journey is go onto the website. [00:47:32] If you leave your email, we're going to keep you up to date. We've got loads of exciting things that are happening next year. We're going to have to test a mini eternal wall in a wind tunnel, would you believe? You know, all these crazy things that we've got to do to get this built.
But also, you know, you should be able to find us on all social media, YouTube and Facebook in particular. Don't just be a listener today. Get involved, be part of it because you'll be able to tell your children and your grandchildren and their grandchildren about to say that one of their ancestors was part of this amazing project. And for the glory of God, we can tell the nations over the generations how amazing He is. So please be part of it.
Laura Dugger: Love that so much. You may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Richard, what is your savvy sauce? [00:48:34]
Richard Gamble: Mine would be this one. Don't be bound by rules that aren't there. You know, I've learned in life that sometimes people go, yeah, well, that's what we do. And you go, why are we doing that? And they think there's a rule, but there isn't. And I believe that we have a creative Holy Spirit who can lead us and guide us. And if we're in step with Him, we can really break through boundaries. The kingdom of God is forcefully advancing and forceful people lay hold of it. And I believe that's one of the ways is not being bound by rules that aren't there.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Richard, I'm just so grateful for your boldness and your creativity to testify of God's good news and saving grace. Thank you so much for faithfully working on this purposeful vision. And thank you for being my guest today.
Richard Gamble: Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you so much, Laura. [00:49:35]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:50:35] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:51:34] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:52:39] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.