480.6K
Downloads
335
Episodes
Practical Chats for Intentional Living
Episodes
Monday Jun 03, 2024
Monday Jun 03, 2024
Top Ten from 2023: #10 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof
Luke 16:10a (NLT) If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- As a working mom, what perspective and wisdom can you offer us parents?
- What are a few core values or prayers that you find to be helpful as a parent?
- Will you speak to the importance of independent play?
Cynthia Yanof is an author, blogger, and host of MESSmerized Podcast. She loves Jesus, her family, foster care, and having as many friends around her as possible. She is married to Mike, and together they have three kids ranging from college age all the way down to first grade. (No, that’s not a typo.)
She’s excited to introduce her debut book, Life is Messy, God is Good.. You can follow her on social media @CynthiaYanof, and the Pardon the Mess podcast is available on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual places.
Cynthia strives to be authentic, vulnerable, and full of laughter as she encourages people on the messy roads of life.
Connect with Cynthia:
@cynthiayanof
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Spark Academy (Mention The Savvy Sauce to Unlock Your Special Discount!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday May 27, 2024
Monday May 27, 2024
235. Stories Series: Jesus, Our Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 32:1 (KJV) "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered."
Kent Heimer is a Jesus-follower and grateful recipient of God's love and forgiveness. He is happily married to Jan, father to three married adult children, and grandfather to 12. Professionally, Kent is the President at Heimer Construction Company in Taylor, Missouri.
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
When you were 13, a significant event occurred. Will you share that story with us?
-
What did life look like, both before and after you put your faith in Jesus Christ?
-
Even after you became a Christ-follower, you still had troubles in this world. Will you pick up your story again?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Kent Heimer is my guest today, and he is a second cousin to my mom. They grew up near one another, and they even attended the same church. God has interwoven our families, and even to this day, Kent and his wife, Jan, remain dear friends of my parents.
I first heard Kent's testimony as a teenager, and it has never left me. At that time, I was not yet walking with the Lord, but his story left an eternal impression on me. I am just humbled he is willing to share it again today. Here's our chat. [00:01:19]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kent.
Kent Heimer: Laura, I am so humbled to be able to join you today. Laura, you talked about Savvy Sauce, I'd just like to share with you a little bit how I do life.
I love Psalm 32:1, where it says, "Blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered." So as I do life, I am so thankful to be able that when people ask me how I'm doing, as a believer in Jesus, I am always blessed.
Some days I'm happy, and some days I'm sad. So I never want to lie when I'm not doing well, and I don't want to tell somebody I'm doing okay, but I am safe to say that I am always blessed. [00:02:24] And it has opened the door to share the gospel so many times, countless times in my life when people say, "How are you blessed?" And they open that door, and I get to share with them Jesus.
Laura Dugger: And Kent, really, as long as I've known you, which I guess has actually been my entire life, that is so true every time I hear you respond that way. Our families go way back. And as you know, my dad is one of 10 children, and my mom is one of six. So I've always been fascinated by big families. You grew up in a large family. So will you tell us a bit about your upbringing?
Kent Heimer: Yes, I'd love to. I had the most wonderful parents, Laura. There was eight children in our family. There was three girls and five boys. [00:03:25] We were a typical family. Mom and dad loved Jesus, and that was their heart's desire, that their children would love Jesus also.
We didn't go to church every Wednesday night. We were raised on a farm, and with the busyness of farming, that didn't always work. But on Sundays, you could always find us at a small rural church there at Taylor called the Apostolic Christian Church.
Mom and Dad, as I said, were wonderful parents. They did go through some heartache and pain. I have an older sister, Linda, that only lived less than a month. She had spina bifida, so she went home to be with Jesus. I have never met her, but I certainly look forward to that time when we will be together forever and ever. [00:04:29]
Like a lot of farm families, Mom and Dad went through some very difficult times, but it was encouraging for us kids to see their faith, even when they went through those difficult, difficult times.
I remember in 1959, we had a large barn there on our farm full of a lot of hogs and cattle and straw and hay and equipment, and that night that barn burnt. I'll never forget the faith that I've seen in my mom and dad as they went through that difficult time. Then in '61, they lost another. We lost our farrowing barn there on the farm to fire also.
Then '64 to '66 was a rather difficult time for Mom and Dad. My dad had an accident there on the farm. [00:05:29] He was building a new fence, and it was raining, and he was setting a large corner post without the use of a tractor and a loader. He was trying to bear hug it and set it by hand and slipped on the wet dirt, and that post fell on him such that the next two years, he was in lots of pain and had two back surgeries.
So it wasn't easy there on the farm for my mom and dad and with seven of us children then at that time living, but they always pointed us to Christ.
Laura Dugger: Kent, when you were 13 years old, a significant event took place. Will you share that with us now?
Kent Heimer: Yeah. It was May 13, 1966. [00:06:30] A good friend in school named Dean invited me to stay overnight with him and set some lines out in the river and fish for large catfish, and I caught the biggest fish I'd ever caught before. It was a five-pound blue cat, and I was so proud of that.
So the next morning, I couldn't wait to show up to my dad. So that next morning, May 14, 1966, was a Saturday, and Dean's mom took me home, and my mom told me that my dad and the hired man were down at the bottom of this big hill, and they were working down there and that I could go show that fish to them, but first I needed to go to the barn and help my Uncle Gerald load a load of straw.
So all of us, my brothers, our seven kids, our ages at that time would have been... the youngest would have been six, and the oldest would have been 18. So the five of us boys were old enough to help load the straw. And then we loaded up in their truck, and I had a five-gallon bucket with that fish in it, and I couldn't wait to show my dad. [00:07:59]
So we went down the hill. Our farmstead was up on kind of a large high hill. And went down to the bottom of the hill, and I was in the back of the truck with some of my brothers, and my oldest brother, who was 18, was driving the truck.
As we got closer, I saw that they were resting. The man that was hired by my father to help him and my dad, it looked like they were resting, and I thought that was kind of peculiar. I hadn't seen my dad rest on the ground like that.
Well, my dad and the hired hand were driving a sandpoint. A sandpoint is a perforated pipe that we had a lot of hogs, and because of disease, my dad would like to move the hogs around on the farm. And being only five miles from the Mississippi River and kind of a sandy subsoil, that water table would move, permeate, and move through the ground, and you could drive a perforated pipe about 25 foot into the ground, and you would just use a pulse tow driver to drive that in the ground, and then you could put a shallow well pump on it and get water for the livestock. [00:09:29]
Well, it had rained the night before, and the ground was moist. It was a very humid day on that May 14th day. So my dad and the hired man were putting a section of pipe onto the sandpoint. They raised it up. My dad, I know he knew that close by was a real electric line running. I think he felt he was far enough away from it to hoist that section of pipe up, but that day, because of the conditions, that electricity arced over and hit the pipe that my dad and the hired man were holding, and both of those men were electrocuted when we got there.
As I look back at that later, God was really merciful because the pipe wasn't laying against the line and still touching my father or the hired man because some of us children then could have got electrocuted at that time also. [00:10:46]
But it was an unbelievable sad day in the life of our family. We went up and told Mom, and she... I'll fast forward about an hour here, but she said she would not want to go down and look at the bodies. But she gathered the seven of us children in the living room, and she promised us that God would be with us and that God would help us through this very, very unfortunate event in our life.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And between both families, many children were left fatherless that day. Kent, your mom, Naomi, just has always had the best reputation. I know my mom has said that she was one of the sweetest women she ever knew. [00:11:53] Mom even said she considered her her second mom growing up. So that is remarkable that within an hour of that tragedy that she was still clinging to God's promises and teaching her children the same. But how did your sweet mom continue to support your family?
Kent Heimer: She was the most godly person that I've ever known. My dad didn't have any life insurance, so I would just like to say, please, if you're listening to this and you're a young couple out there, please have some term insurance, life insurance or something if a tragic event would happen in your life.
But because of that, Mom worked two jobs at that point. [00:12:56] She would get us kids up, get us on the bus, and then close by was a motel, and she would go there and make beds, clean rooms, and then she went to the local high school where us kids went to school, and she was a cook there. So she would work before and after that noon hour, and it was her desire to get home in time to get us off of the bus and to be able to be with us.
So Mom never complained. I never heard her once ever, ever, ever blame God or be angry for what had taken place. She one time told me that she was glad that she had a large family that would keep her busy, and so she was very, very busy. But she said that often the busyness would keep her mind off of what had taken place with our family there.[00:14:14]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin.
In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.
In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park.
Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. [00:15:19]
And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments. Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even mini storage units available in some locations.
Leman Property Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.
Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@Lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at Lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.
Laura Dugger: Well, and even for each of you kids, you said the age range was approximately 6 to 18. [00:16:20] Do you remember how you all processed this, even emotionally or spiritually, at the time?
Kent Heimer: You know, I wish at that time... our church now has a counseling service, but I really wish that us kids and my mom could have had some kind of grief counseling. That tragedy was acted out in different ways by us children. I think each one of us processed it in such different ways.
A lot of the younger children didn't want to go to school for a time. I don't know if they thought that they would come home and mom would be gone too. [00:17:20] I'm not sure what those little minds were thinking.
You know, being 13 at the time, I was the oldest young man at home. I had one older brother, and he was a freshman in college, so he was gone. So it wasn't easy to kind of be the man of the house at 13 years old because we had lots of chores and a lot of work to do every day before school. And then after we'd get home from school, we had lots of chores and things to do outside, the things that dad and the hired man used to do. So it was a struggle.
I'd have to say personally, I was angry at God also. The hired man had five little boys, and again, there was seven of us children. [00:18:25] So 13 years old, you're asking the question, why? I don't think that that's any different probably than anybody that goes through that situation at a young age would ask the question, why?
And now, as I look back in the rearview mirror of life, I have learned that all things work together for good to them that love the Lord and to them who are the called according to His purpose. But when you're going through it at the time, it is not easy. But I just praise God here today that I had a mother that didn't bail on us kids when the times got hard, but she trusted in God through this unfortunate situation. [00:19:25]
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I can't even imagine all of even just the intense work that you're talking about that's now shared among all of you. Were there any other memorable trials just in that unique environment, having a single mom now with a large family?
Kent Heimer: Well, things were tight. She always told us that... when Christmas came, it was a time that I dreaded because some of the kids in my Sunday school class would always be talking about the gifts that they had been given. And at home, you know, we weren't angry at Mom. We just knew that she told us that she couldn't do that, do the gift giving at Christmas time. [00:20:25]
But Laura, I am here to tell you that that's why I encourage people to be a part of a church family. Get plugged in to a church family like my mother was. Some of the church, when you at least expect it, would be there at the door and have a gift for all of us children, one gift to share or sometimes a gift for each one of us so that we too might know... you know, the real joy of Christmas is Jesus and not gifts. But when you're young, gifts mean a lot. And so there was some at church that made sure almost every year that we too had a gift.
Laura Dugger: What a sweet church it is. That's the same one that my mom grew up in and where my grandparents were as well. [00:21:27] I didn't know that part of the story that that's one way that they came around you. So that's impactful.
Were there any other memories that you have where God does promise He will be close to the brokenhearted? Were there times that you experienced that in your youth? Or is it more so as you look back?
Kent Heimer: That is a great question. Youth was just hard. It's hard for me right now. I mean, after I asked Jesus in my heart when I was 19, from then on, I could see more clearly. But up until that time, life was a blur. It was cloudy. It was, you know, what's going on? Why do some have so much and some so little? I've got some wonderful, wonderful memories but I got some memories that are not as good also, you know, during that time. [00:22:34]
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. You had lived through so much trauma and not having a personal relationship with Jesus at the time. Even though your family was plugged into a church, it sounds like it wasn't a personal decision and surrender yet.
I love how you bring up that at 19 there was a change. So can you take us back to that time of life and share what it looked like for you before and after you put your faith in Jesus Christ?
Kent Heimer: I was one of the youngest kids in my high school class. So I was 18 when I went to my freshman year of college. And I went to a local junior college at the time. My mom asked if I would be willing to go closer to home so I could still help at home. And I did that. [00:23:36]
And then my sophomore year, though, I found that some of the credits would not be able to be transferred. And I wanted to get a four-year degree in industrial education, industrial arts, to be able to teach that, after my dad passed away, and ultimately we had a dispersal sale and sold the livestock, so then mom encouraged us boys to get a job off the farm.
So I started working for a local contractor and building houses. I just loved seeing a stack of wood and at the end of the day, to see what you could do with a stack of wood, you could build the walls and set the trusses.
So I wanted to get a degree to teach if I ever got disabled in the construction world. But I thought I wanted to have a construction company was my goal. [00:24:39] So I went to Truman State University, which was about an hour and 15 minutes west of home.
It was up there that I did something my mother asked me not to do and I had to repent for that and tell her I was sorry. But I told her I was thinking about joining a social fraternity and she said, "What's that about?" And I only told her the good, didn't tell her the bad.
It was during hell week of pledging a social fraternity there at college that I was not happy that one of the active members of the fraternity was picking on one of my pledge brothers. And I took offense to that. But anyway, through it all, he was a black belt and I got hit. I got hit hard and I got 30 some stitches alongside my nose and down, cut my lip through. [00:25:44]
So they took me to the hospital and Laura, it was that night that I started waving the white flag of surrender. It was that night when I heard Him. The doctors, they had a nurse call Mom, and I still remember it was 2 or 3 a.m. in the morning and they said, "We have your son Kent here and we need to suture him up and we need your permission to do that. He's been in a sled riding accident." Well, that was a big lie. That's what the active members told the doctors had happened to me. I'd hit a tree sled riding.
So I was sitting there and they had my face covered up in just a slit where they were going to stitch me up. And what the doctor couldn't see, the tears were rolling. I knew I wasn't happy with where my life was at that time. [00:26:49] And because I had went to that Apostolic Christian Church all my life, when I was in college there at Kirksville, I didn't go home every weekend, but I went home some weekends and I did always worship with mom. But I knew enough to know that I was far from God and I needed Jesus.
So fast forward just to not long after that is when I let my mom know that I wanted to follow Jesus the rest of my life and I was sorry for my sin. I told Mom where I had erred and come short of the glory of God. And she was gracious as all mothers are and forgave me. Jesus has turned my world upside down, and I have never been the same since that day when I was 19 years old when I invited him into my heart. [00:27:59]
Laura Dugger: That is such an incredible testimony. And I think of the many prayers of a mother and how we say whatever it takes, Lord, to bring them into your fold.
Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce.
If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox. Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.
So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the Articles tab. [00:29:02]
Even though life changed and you had this deep abiding peace now, God still tells us that in this life we will have troubles, but we can take heart He's overcome the world. But yet, even in your life, more loss was still ahead. So will you pick up your story again?
Kent Heimer: Yeah. I'm so thankful that God brought my wife, Jan. She was from our church in Roanoke, Illinois, into my life, into my heart. It was 1976 that we got married.
So I had the four-year degree and I had student-taught, but I really wanted to start a construction company. So the Monday after I graduated from college, I started our construction company with one employee. [00:30:02] And we were building houses and it was going good.
And then the late 90s and the early 80s, anyone who lived through that time will remember the 16% and the 18% interest. Laura, my phone quit ringing. During that time, I had, I think, three other employees and I wasn't able to give them work because no one can build a house with 18% interest.
But I shared with my wife, we had one piece of equipment, we had a backhoe at the time and we had a house on some acreage, and I shared with her, Laura, that we might have to sell the backhoe first. And then if that didn't stop the bleeding, then maybe we'll sell our house that we were making monthly payments on. But I said, maybe we'll keep a little section of the ground and we'll put some kind of a modular home on that and we will weather the storm. [00:31:06] Because we didn't know at that time how long the high interest rates would be.
For any married couple out there, she said words to me that gave me so much hope. She said, "I could care less about the backhoe and I could care less about this house. All I want is you. So whatever we got to do, as long as I got you, we will be okay."
So what that did, that gave me the confidence. It wasn't long after that I heard locally there that there was a commercial project going to be built. I found out how to possibly bid on that project. And the rest of the story is we bid on that project and we got it.
So starting at that time, our construction company then started doing more industrial commercial type work. It seems like even with the high interest rates that big companies continue to do work and continue to build. [00:32:12] So it was such an incredible blessing to go from residential to the commercial building. And God really, really blessed us.
But I can't say enough about the faith that my wife had in me in making that decision. You know, if she would have slayed me with her tongue for buying the backhoe, or, you know, we shouldn't have taken the debt when we got the house and the acreage. But she didn't. She said, "As long as I got you, we will be okay."
So we went along and we grew the construction company and we got up to, at that time, around 30 employees. But 1993 and '94, there was a six-month period there that was hard for us as a family. Jan and I are blessed with three children and they would have been like eight, nine, and ten or nine, ten, and eleven. They were close together. [00:33:22] But we was at church on a Wednesday night and we got a phone call to get home that our business was... Well, they actually said there was an old barn out away from the house. They said, "You got to get home. There's an old barn... Your barn's on fire." Well, when we got home, our business sat behind our house and it was in flames. And it was, I think, a five-alarm. There was five different fire departments. It was a major fire.
So it was difficult that we'd worked hard with our employees' help and it was going up in flames. It was, I think, 5 a.m. when the last, 4 or 5 a.m., the last fire department left. And it was toast. It burnt to the ground.
I went in to go to bed, even though I know I wouldn't be able to sleep, and I pulled the covers down, and my son, he's the youngest of our three kids, had taken a piece of 8 1⁄2 by 11 paper and torn it. So it was torn and jagged. [00:34:41] But he made a cross and he laid it on my pillow. So when I pulled the covers back, there was a cross laying there that he had torn with his little hands and basically saying, "Dad, keep your eye on the cross." That was an incredible, incredible blessing that night.
Just a few weeks after that, one of our employees had an accident with our crane. It's kind of hard to explain, but if anybody knows anything about cranes, if you want to reach higher, you fold around a jib, which is stored against the main boom. You put a pivot pin and you fold the jib around and you put another pin in to lock it in place, and you're able to lift higher at a higher elevation.
An employee forgot to put the pivot pin in before he was going to pivot the boom around, and it fell on him and crushed his head. [00:35:41] So that employee was critically injured. I just praise God that his life was spared and he lives yet today. But, you know, that was hard with OSHA getting involved and the place where we work, very concerned about what had taken place.
Then early in '94, it was 2 or 3 a.m. in the morning, and got a call from Florida where my mom was vacationing. And they said, "Is your mom named Naomi?" And I said, "Yes." And they said her last name, I said, "Yes." They said she's been in a real bad car wreck, that she's on life support and you children should try to get to Naples, Florida as quick as you can.
So I called my siblings and it was a miracle that the airline worked with us and got us to Naples, Florida. [00:36:46] Unfortunately, my mom and... my mom remarried after being a widow for many, many years. So it had been my step aunt was in the backseat with her. So my stepfather was in the front. My step-uncle was beside him and then my mom was in the back with my step-aunt.
And a semi-driver made a bad mistake that night. He wanted to turn around a semi. He had a car carrier behind him on a two-lane road, which is you don't do that. But he had tried to do that. And he got his tractor... when he was turning around down in the ditch and got stuck. So the trailer was perpendicular to the road and there was no marker lights on the side of the trailer. And so the car my mom was riding in went into the side of that car carrier, and through it, my mom and my step-aunt both went. They went home to be with Jesus.[00:38:00]
Laura Dugger: Wow. So this is a time where your children are all approximately 10, 11, 12, you're in the midst of business struggles, and here, one of the other dear women in your life, your sweet mom, suddenly passed away.
Kent Heimer: Yeah, it was... You know, I've been in church leadership, Laura. So I've learned that if you get a call late at night, it's either real good or real bad. It's real good if somebody wants to give their heart to Jesus and wants to talk and counsel. And it's not good when there's tragedy, which often happens at night.
Yeah, that was... I'd like to give the testimony that I didn't handle that perfectly, and I'm sure none of us siblings did. [00:39:01] But when you know Jesus and been walking with Him and had seen how faithful He was through our fire, through the employee that got critically injured... I could give a testimony, a quick testimony right now.
I had tried to move our business away from behind our home for a few years. I tried to buy property and there was no one. I wanted to get out along US 24 and 61, the four-lane highway, and get property so we could become more visible with our construction company. And no one desired to sell land to me.
Laura, it was... when the church family came together to help clean up the mess after the fire, one of the people at church said, "Kent, do you realize that this piece of land right down the road right along US 61 and 24 is going to be sold next Saturday at the courthouse steps in Palmyra?" And I said, "No, I didn't know that. And I thought to myself, "Wow, what a perfect location that would be." [00:40:17]
I went to the local bank and told them my heart's desire and they set a limit per acre, what Jan and I could give for that land. And it was an incredible day when God blessed us with that land in that location. It sold just for a few dollars less per acre than the cap that the local bank had put on us. They didn't want to see us get overextended, which is good. But God had another plan.
It wasn't until we went through the devastation of the loss that He could show us what He had in mind for our company. And our company is still there yet today. And it's thousands of cars go by that location every day. [00:41:15]
When I got that location, I was so thankful to God. I made a promise to Him that as long as I could, that a few weeks before Easter and a few weeks after Easter, I would put up three big wooden crosses. Because I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ as we read in Romans 1:16, for it is a power of God and to salvation to everyone that believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Have we probably lost work because we put out the crosses every year? Probably, but I don't care. God has blessed us. We've always had abundance of opportunity and work for our company.
So, yes, my mom's death. Miss her sorely still today. Her and my stepfather, Rod, we're going to drive home the next day from Florida. [00:42:19] They had been down there for an extended time through the winter.
And before the wreck, she had put in the mail a card to Jan and myself and said, "Tomorrow we're coming home and can't wait to see you all." So after the accident, about the same time as the actual, I think it was a little before the funeral, we got the card from mom saying, "I'm coming home." But mom went, you know... some people call it heaven. I think there's a Southern gospel song out there. But Laura, you and I call it home.
Laura Dugger: Amen. Kent, you have experienced tragedy after tragedy, and yet through all of these stories, it's so clear you love to share the good news of Jesus. [00:43:21] And you do that with everyone you encounter. That joy is something that can only come from the Lord. So is there anything else that you'd like to share with all of us? If someone's going through their own grief right now, what encouragement would you have for them to help cope with overwhelming grief?
Kent Heimer: My encouragement to them is even when you can't see exactly what God is doing, continue to trust God. On Jan and mine's license plates here in Missouri, we got Proverbs 3:6... no, 3:5 and 6 is well known to many of you. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to thine own understanding. In all thy ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths."
My encouragement is when you are going through those very, very difficult times, even when you cannot trace the path that God is having you on at the time, even when you can't trace God, trust God. [00:44:31] I can say without a shadow of a doubt that now as I look in the rearview mirror of my life, you know, at the time I couldn't see how all things work together for good. But with some spiritual maturity and walking with Jesus day by day for many, many years, I can give that testimony that all things work together for good.
So when you cannot trace God and you're going through something very, very difficult, continue to trust Him until you understand the rest of the story.
Laura Dugger: Wow. You have quite the perspective to draw from. And I agree completely wholeheartedly with your conclusion. And yet there's so much of your life that we won't have time to cover. But will you catch us up to speed with what you and Jan are up to these days? [00:45:35]
Kent Heimer: Oh, I'd love to do that. Jan and I have three believing children. They're spouses. Each of them are married. They're spouses. Believe. Jan and I are so blessed that we have 12 grandchildren, 10 of them boys, two girls. We don't seem worthy, but our children honor us. In Ephesians 6, "Children obey your parents and the Lord for this is right. Honor thy father and mother, which is the first commandment with promise."
We're not perfect parents. We don't have nail prints in our hands, and we've made a lot of mistakes in life. If you're a parent out there like us, be quick to say the words, "I'm sorry," or "I forgive you." After what Jesus has done for us, keep those lines of communication open with your children and your grandchildren.
Jan and I are humbled. We've been blessed with a cabin, and it's big enough to house all of us. [00:46:41] In December, we send a calendar out to our three children and their spouses, and we pick one weekend a month, every month. So 12 months are presented to our children for family weekends.
This coming weekend is family weekend. So Jan and I are so excited to host our children on Friday. They come in. And everyone helps with meals. One of the girls will do the Friday evening meal, and Jan always does the two breakfasts, Saturday morning and Sunday morning breakfast. One of the other girls will take the Saturday noon meal, and one of the other ones will take the Saturday evening meal. But we gather together.
We have a devotion sometime during that weekend. We celebrate birthdays. We celebrate life. We are so, so blessed that they honor us in that way, and we come together. [00:47:46] So we spend that time together, and then we all go half hour away to our church, and we worship together. Then we come back to the cabin, and we have leftovers from the two days prior, and we just have sweet, sweet fellowship.
So Jan and I feel we are most blessed by our children, by our grandchildren, and thankful that Jan and mine's health has been so good. We are so blessed, Laura.
The main thing that we want now, Jan and I, we don't do it perfectly, but we pray for name by our grandchildren, that they too all, in time, will make that decision and wave that white flag and ask Jesus into their heart.
Laura Dugger: You are so faithful in that. I remember when you were faithfully praying that for your own children, and I know you've prayed that for your relatives' children, myself included. [00:48:53] I just remember not even being a believer yet, but being in Sunday school in high school and you came to visit our little church in Roanoke, and you shared your testimony. And God definitely used that to soften my heart toward Him in that day.
And I pray the same is true of you being willing to share your testimony with all of us today. And what a beautiful spot to come to with that verse that's in the New Testament about, "I have no greater joy than to hear my children are walking in truth." And I know we all pray that for one another today.
But Kent, you may already know our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:49:51]
Kent Heimer: You know, my savvy sauce might take just a few minutes here, but when my dad was taken, like I said, when I was 13. I had nothing from my dad. I knew he loved me, but I had nothing that I could put my hands on when the tears would come.
So one Sunday morning, I was at the cabin, and I was too ill to go to church, and I just reached over my wife's nightstand to see what books were there. And there was one that was called Letters From Dad. And it was a short read, I don't know, 80 to 100 pages. So I read that, lay in there, and I wept most of the way through, wishing this writer also, like myself, had nothing from his father. So I wept with him.
I made a vow and a promise. And so I went to a local man that does great woodworking in our community, and he made me these little walnut boxes, Laura, really nice with dovetail joints and green felt inside. [00:51:03] And I etched a Bible verse on them about my love, a different verse for my children than my grandchildren. So I had 20 some of these made, not knowing how many grandchildren we'd be blessed with.
I take time, and when the Holy Spirit works in my heart, I sat down and I'll pen a letter to my grandchildren. So each of the grandchildren have letters in their walnut box from Grandpa. I want them to know that if God calls me home, that Grandpa loved them. And I put in the letter that, you know, my greatest desire is to be able to be with them forever and ever in heaven.
So I don't know if there's somebody out there, and you're like me and you have nothing, maybe from your dad that showed in a letter form that he loved you. I can tell you my children... I just thank the Holy Spirit. They allowed me to read that book that day and change my life. And my children will know that inside that little walnut box is something to show them when I am gone of the love and the prayers that I had for them. So take time. [00:52:42]
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is quite the legacy. What an amazing idea. It seems very inspired by the Holy Spirit. I love hearing how you followed through. I think that's a wonderful challenge to each of us. Kent, I am just beyond grateful for your willingness to testify about God's work in your life and His protective care of all of His children, even when we go through really hard things. You are a light in this world, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.
Kent Heimer: Thank you, Laura, for the opportunity. And I pray that I didn't steal God's glory today, but I want Jesus to be high and lifted up. So thanks again for allowing me to be a part.
Laura Dugger: Truly my pleasure.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:53:44] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:54:49]
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. [00:55:51] I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 20, 2024
Monday May 20, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.
234. Stories Series: Redemption From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel
**Transcription Below**
1 John 1:7 (NIV) "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
Will you tell us how you two met Jesus?
-
What significant event happened next?
-
What were some ways God spoke to each of you throughout your healing process?
Garrett Naufel is a Midwest guy who grew up amongst the cornfields and coal mines of central Illinois. He loves the outdoors, hiking and challenging theological reads. He has served in full-time vocational ministry for 22 years, operating in pastoral roles for the majority of the time, and has navigated heartbreak, hope, life, death, failed church plants and the unveiling of the goodness of Jesus throughout this time. Garrett currently serves as the Discipleship Pastor at Open Bible Baptist Church in Colorado Springs. He has been married to the love of his life for 25 years and has two amazing kiddos (as well as 5 babies in heaven).
Brenna Naufel is a pastor's wife who committed adultery, a mother to two children here on Earth, and five babies in heaven. But, most of all, she knows she is a beloved, precious, cherished, and sweetly forgiven daughter of God. Besides being passionate about sharing God's scandalous love and redeeming grace, Brenna also loves chocolate, games, Sci-Fi movies, and ping pong. And, of course, Jesus and her amazing family! She is the author of From Lover to Beloved - Experience God's hope, healing, and forgiveness after committing adultery. She resides in Colorado Springs, CO with her husband of 25 years and her two beautiful children.
Connect with Brenna on Instagram @brennanaufel
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
Additional Episodes on Similar Topics from The Savvy Sauce:
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Patreon 28 Re-Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Garrett and Brenna Naufel are my guests today. Garrett is a pastor in Colorado, and Brenna is an author. We were introduced through a mutual friend, Allie Bennett.
Allie and I met through church, and she told me about Garrett and Brenna, who were actually her college ministry leaders years ago in a different state. [00:01:20] Garrett and Brenna have such an incredible redemption story, and I'm so grateful they're willing to share it with us now.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Garrett and Brenna.
Brenna Naufel: Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be here.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, thank you very much.
Laura Dugger: Let's begin here. Will you tell us how both of you met Jesus?
Garrett Naufel: Sure, yeah. I really began to encounter Jesus and the gospel more explicitly in college. I kind of grew up around church and a little farm/coal mining town in Illinois prior to that. But yeah, it was in college, really the latter part of college, that I really began to significantly understand the gospel. And it was probably about junior year when the realization dawned on me that, Hey, I'm not a Christian, but I want to know Jesus, and I want to follow Jesus, and I desperately need Jesus. And it was there that He met with me and rescued me. [00:02:20] So yeah, it was late in college when I came to know Jesus.
It was a pretty clear and radical experience for me, as far as understanding my depravity and need and the graciousness of God to come for me and with me.
Brenna Naufel: For me, I would say kind of my journey began after my parents divorced. When I was 8 years old. My dad had an affair, my parents got divorced, and so our lives were flipped upside down. There was a lot of hurt there that you don't quite understand when you're eight years old and growing up from then on out.
But there was certainly this hole that I felt in my heart and didn't quite know how to fill it. My mom had started going to church after the divorce, and she became a believer. So I did grow up in church for the most part at that time and certainly was trying to understand the gospel.
I probably heard it a million times before it finally clicked for me. I went to a Bible camp for a week out of the summer of, I'd say, between my sophomore and junior year in high school. [00:03:27] So again, when I was 16, I gave my life to Christ at that time.
Even at that time, I remember somebody sharing, you know, some of you will be called in a ministry, and even some of you might be called to be a pastor's wife. I felt that wholeheartedly at the time that I would become a pastor's wife. I certainly didn't live that way as far as dating relationships and things always right after that but God certainly did get a hold of my heart.
But it was easy for me to kind of put Him on the back burner for relationships and things, too, as I was growing in my faith. But that's how we both came to know Jesus.
Laura Dugger: The two of you went on to meet each other at a summer leadership program, and you were both sensing that God was leading you to one another for marriage. Actually, within a year of that initial meeting, you were married. But you two soon discovered marriage was harder than either of you had anticipated. And you were trusting that God had brought you together. So that's what made it kind of confusing, and you didn't expect such difficulties to arise in marriage. [00:04:33]
Will you share what significant event happened about three years into marriage, when you were being considered to go on staff at a church in Missouri?
Garrett Naufel: As we were getting ready to do that, to make that transition and move, and went through all the interview process and stuff, I was wrapping up my job, which was in the dot-com world at that time, right before the bubble burst. Right as it was bursting. We were transitioning and I was at work one day, benignly just went to Google-search something, nothing illicit or anything like that, and up popped some pornography on the screen.
I was pretty naive to the internet at that point. I mean, I knew how to use it, but I'd been exposed to pornography at a very early age. I think I was 7 years old the first time I was exposed to it. But it had not been a struggle in my life, even as an unbeliever, for various reasons. [00:05:35] But at that point, I was hooked almost immediately to that. So that began really an 8-year on-and-off battle with internet pornography.
And what I now realize and didn't realize at the time, is there was a large portion of me that had even correlated sex with not just pleasure, but with relief and an escape and a salve, if you will, for stress, difficulty, things like that. So I really gave myself over to that at that point.
Brenna Naufel: And you didn't share it with me.
Garrett Naufel: No, yeah, yeah. I definitely was struggling. I shared with a few people that were not Brenna. I got varying degrees of counsel, most of which wasn't very good or very biblical. One guy in particular basically just said, it's not going to help anything to share this with your wife. You need to just figure this out. [00:06:36]
I tried that, I think, partly because I hoped it worked, partly because of the shame and fear I had around coming into the light, particularly with Brenna about that. And so, yeah, that was an eight-year ongoing, like I said, kind of a binge and purge type of situation in my life.
And I don't mean to downplay it in any way. It was, at points in my life, very consuming of me emotionally, spiritually. It was clearly a hidden thing. Yeah, it was really broken and really, really dishonoring of the Lord and of my wife and of our ministry. I mean, really, in every aspect, it was a wicked, wretched thing.
Laura Dugger: Well, Garrett, I appreciate you being willing to share this part of your story, even as it is difficult. But so many people struggle with this. I even think back, we recently did an episode with Sam Black of Covenant Eyes. I'll link to that in the show notes. [00:07:37]
But he talks about the early childhood exposure and then also using pornography to medicate and how it can medicate your emotions in a really negative and turning destructive way. But I'm also curious, you said even prior to knowing Christ, it was never a struggle for various reasons. Can you pinpoint any specific reasons why it wasn't a struggle before?
Garrett Naufel: Yeah. So I'm older. I'm a child of the 80s. And so pre-internet. So I didn't really have the opportunity to be exposed to internet pornography really until... You know, college would have been the earliest. Not everybody had a computer in their home and things like that growing up. And so some of it was just accessibility.
You know, had it been as accessible as it is now when I was a kid, I probably would have struggled. I think that's part of God's grace to me, even as an unbeliever, was that it just wasn't as easy to get a hold of. [00:08:37]
I think another reason was just shame. Even as an unbeliever, I had a strong sense of shame, strong sense of guilt. I think a lot of what probably kept me from that was just like, you know, when I was growing up, I would have had to have gone into a store and bought something or rented something. And just the fact that someone would have known was too much for my conscience.
Like, I remember guys in college who I was buddies with who would go to the video store and rent stuff. And I was just like, "I couldn't do that." I just had such a strong sense of shame that it just was, I couldn't overcome that. But once it was, you know... I think it was just kind of the perfect storm. My weakness and maturity, brokenness, and the opportunity all came together in that moment back in 2001. And I did not have the fortitude or the conviction or the depth of relationship with Jesus to flee from sin, but I did not do it.
You know, the reality is I was responsible for it. The Lord had provided a way out for me in that temptation, I did not take it. [00:09:49] But I hadn't dealt with Jesus, the mess that was still in my heart. So when that medication presented itself, I very foolishly, but willingly took part in it.
Laura Dugger: One other piece, Garret, are you a firstborn?
Garrett Naufel: I am. I'm the oldest. Yeah, there's two of us and I'm the oldest of the two.
Laura Dugger: Okay. Even the... not that this always pertains to a firstborn, but that shame and guilt and kind of high sensitivity to those things, I can see there's a lot of pressure on firstborns. And I wonder if a lot of people listening, especially who are firstborns, relate to that.
But Brenna, I'm also curious for you at this point. So this eight-year struggle, this is into marriage. Were you experiencing anything differently with Garrett? And even intimacy-wise, did you notice an impact on your relationship?
Brenna Naufel: Yeah, that's a great question. [00:10:48] I definitely felt an emotional distance from Garrett that I couldn't quite pinpoint. Or I didn't understand, you know, because I would ask him at times, like, "I feel like you're really far. I feel like there's something between you and God. There's something between us."
So I think I felt that strongly at some times. And other times we just kind of went about our lives and I kind of just let it go, if that makes sense. But I definitely started to feel an emotional distance from Garrett. And that certainly impacted things.
I think intimacy-wise, that's just always been a struggle for me regardless. So I don't know if I noticed it impacting that area. It's just an area that I've struggled in personally, I think, kind of similar to Garrett in a sense where I equated that with... so I had a couple of sexual relationships prior to our marriage and I had equated that with being loved and feeling wanted and all those kinds of things. [00:11:51]
So in a twisted, weird sense, I think when we got married and I felt completely loved and wanted by Garrett just because of being me and for who he is. Then sometimes the sexual intimacy didn't... it was harder to come by in a sense because I felt those things in other ways and I was still equating it with something very broken. So I didn't notice it in that regard, but certainly emotionally, I think I felt that and had wondered about it even spiritually.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, you made that clear.
Brenna Naufel: Yeah. So, as Garrett mentioned, we decided to go on staff with the ministry and move to Missouri. And we did that and it was honestly a very lonely time. That time that we had moved here was meant for Garrett to raise financial support so he could be fully funded to be in college ministry. So we weren't really getting plugged into our new church or with new friends and we had just uprooted and left, honestly, some of the best friends that at least I had had growing up. [00:12:56]
I was a military brat. I went to four different high schools. Like I didn't have a real kind of solid sense of just friendship and community. But I did have that in Texas. It was the first time I kind of felt like at home in a sense. And we had just left those things. And so we're kind of left on our own.
You know, Garrett's in the midst of this struggle and I'm starting to basically not spend time with the Lord like I had been, you know, because we're not in this community. But I'm also personally not spending time with the Lord.
Naively again, thinking I can just... I've had all these amazing experiences with God. Like I know who He is and I know I'm loved and, you know, just kind of trying to coast if you will. That eventually then led to me not really taking my thoughts captive.
So I began a secret struggle, I would say probably about five years or so into our marriage of honestly fantasizing about men pursuing me, not even anything sexual, nothing physical. [00:14:02] Like in my mind, I would stop it. You know, if I'm thinking about those things from anything going too far, if you will, but certainly the idea of being pursued and wanted in that way, I would let my mind wander there, which eventually... because I'm not confessing that and I'm entertaining those thoughts. That eventually led into real-life flirtations.
This is like over the course of at least a year or all of this is very, very slowly progressing and the slippery slope that I'm going down. So it led to real-life flirtations up to the point where I was alone with a man at a business event and he kissed me. And that is, again, in my mind where I'd never, ever would have let things go. I was strong enough to stop things. But when that happens, it just kind of fulfilled all those other feelings that I had been entertaining and playing with in my heart.
Like Garrett said earlier, he was kind of hooked. That was Satan's hook in me, right? He caught me by the lip and I was there. [00:15:02] That kiss then led into a five-year-long affair. So the last five years of Garrett's struggle with pornography was also me hiding this incredible secret sin of adultery. And so we're just living very separate lives, but also not understanding what's going on in each other's hearts and this distance that we're feeling and all the things.
Laura Dugger: Also at this time were children in the picture?
Garrett Naufel: No, we didn't have any children at that time. I think that was part of God's mercy to us is that we didn't at that time have children who would have to experience all of what was going on and what would occur. You know, they're both pretty young still, but we recognize in our planning for the days that come where we will discuss God's work in our lives and through this, but it is something that is unknown to our children. And then we're not at that point in the picture. [00:16:11]
Laura Dugger: Again, just appreciate you both being willing to take us through this story. Brenna, as you've shared, even from the beginning, your father having an affair and leaving. And the interesting link to the fantasy of men pursuing you, I wonder if it's a little girl's good longing taken in the wrong direction where you long for your daddy to choose you and how that plays out, even into adulthood.
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly that way, they'll be stronger. If they do hit a bump along their marital journey. [00:17:13]
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.
To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: So you two are running these, not even parallel paths, but running away from one another. [00:18:12] And so was there anything that broke this cycle?
Brenna Naufel: Yes.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah.
Brenna Naufel: Garrett can start first.
Garrett Naufel: Yeah. So, you know, throughout these eight years, I would be wrapped up in this sin, and then I would just be so disgusted and so fed up and so sick before the Lord. Again, it's kind of that binge and purge cycle where I would just step away and I'm done with this. Jesus, you've overcome this, and I'm going to trust in you. And then I would eventually take steps back in.
So in 2009, I was sitting, and at this point I'd been on staff with our church, and I had shared with members of the church and people on my staff team what I was struggling with. And so I was picking and choosing my spots to have the appearance. I wouldn't have thought that's what I was doing at the time, but reflecting back, you know, I was seeking some form of accountability, but still wasn't willing to fully be in the light with that. [00:19:17]
So I don't think that excuses anything. I think it just shows on some level the battle that was raging in me between my fallenness in flesh and what Jesus had purchased me for and called me into.
In 2009, I was sitting in a restaurant waiting to meet with a guy that was part of our church, and I was reading the scriptures, and the Lord just very clearly spoke to me and said, "This is enough. This is done." I was so convicted by the realities of what it means to be in the light, that if we are in the light as He is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another.
And it just struck me to the core. The Spirit pierced my heart and convicted me in an undeniable way, and I knew in that moment I had to flee. I had to flee sexual morality in every sense of the word, and I had to run towards Jesus, and I had to be fully in the light. [00:20:22]
So that night I got home after that meeting with that guy, I sat down with Brenna, and I said, "Here's what's been going on, and here's how long, and I need to confess this, and I need you to know, and I want to live in repentant ways. I will do whatever it takes to be in the light with this and to seek to rebuild trust, and I'm asking for your forgiveness."
I'm not expecting to be forgiven in the moment, but that we would go through the process of mourning, grieving, repenting, reconciling, and Lord willing being restored to one another in our marriage in that regard, because I had broken my vows to my wife to be set apart solely for her sexually.
Laura Dugger: Brenna, when he came forward and confessed to you, how did that land with you, and did that impact you in any way to be compelled to confess also?
Brenna Naufel: You'd think it would. [00:21:22] Let me start first with just kind of a response, I think, to Garrett confessing, and obviously I'm hiding my own crazy secret sin as well at this time that he's confessing. But I honestly was relieved in a sense to finally know and understand what that distance was that I had felt for so long.
I also knew what an incredible struggle it had been for me for the past five years of trying to end the affair and getting sucked back in and just the immense death that that has on your life and on your heart. So I was thankful that he was stepping out of that for himself, kind of recognizing that that must have been the struggle that he had been going through. I was so thankful that he was coming into the light and putting that to death as well.
In that moment, I think I was like, "I forgive you." I very quickly was, "I forgive you." [00:22:23] It was much more understanding in a sense. It's still not fully understanding, but understanding the struggle, the hiding of things, but I also didn't feel that I had the right, if that's the right word, to feel the hurt from it because I was doing my own thing and hurting him in my own ways. And so that would come much later.
So yes, there was a lot in me I would say Holy Spirit's probably like, "Now's the time. You've got to get your stuff on the table too. Now's the time." But I chickened out. I was so close in that conversation multiple times to just spill my stuff too, but I didn't. And I hate that I didn't, but in that moment. I just was too scared because it felt so big.
My moment came just a few months after Garrett confessed. And same thing with Garrett. I had put an end to things, and it would go several months, and then it would get sucked back in. So I kind of felt like I was doing okay, right? [00:23:34] Like, "Do I really need to share this with my husband?" Kind of similar thoughts to what Garrett had early on with his struggle.
I'm so thankful because I actually was confronted by a man that I had used to work with. The man I was having an affair with was a person at my job. So this other man had heard rumors and things and confronted me. He had his own reasons for doing that but God used it still, and basically said, "If you don't tell Garrett, I will."
So I broke. I rushed out of the office as soon as I can after he confronted me. I just bawled my eyes out, just really turning my heart back towards the Lord and just so remorseful and so sorry and just overcome with guilt. And really just I think remorse is just the best word. Why did I do these things, and how could I have done these things? I was the person to be like, I would never do that to my husband, seeing other people struggle with that or having committed adultery.
So I decided to tell Garrett, but I still waited a few days because at that time, my job was kind of our primary source of income, and it was our source of insurance, and both of our other pastors from the church were going to be going out of town for the whole summer in a week or two, and the next week, I was supposed to go to Rome with my mom. [00:25:05] We had this trip planned to Italy.
There was all of these reasons why it didn't make sense to me to confess immediately, but again, I'm so thankful because even though I told this other guy, I am going to tell Garrett. I'm trying to figure things out, that wasn't enough for him. Unfortunately, he wound up calling Garrett I think probably just three or four days after he had confronted me. And he's the one that told him, "Did you know your wife is doing these things?"
That just broke my heart. One, that I did the things that I did, obviously, but that he had to find out that way instead of just me coming to him in the same way that he did to me, just out of humility and brokenness.
So he called me at work after he got that phone call and said, "I need you to come home," and I just knew what it was. I knew that this other guy must have called him.
I came into the house, we sat on the couch, and he asked me what seemed to be... It felt like he thought it was such a ridiculous question to have to ask me. [00:26:12] He was apologizing, like, "I am so sorry I have to ask you this most ridiculous question, but Andy called and he said this is what's happening. Is it true?" And I sat there and said, "Yes, it is. Yes, it is."
That was the beginning of confessing a lot of things. There was certainly this initial confession of the broad strokes of what had been going on and how long it had been going on for. Honestly, there was a few other men during that whole period where I had kissed or had some kind of brief physical encounter with, not sexually, but still. So there was multiple even offenses on that regard as well. And so all of that, I just confessed.
We called one of the pastors over, and he sat with some kind of tell all of these wretched things that I had done to Garrett and confessed it to our pastor as well. And I would continue confessing, honestly, for the next probably about two and a half years. [00:27:14] Because when you go through five years of doing this, there's just... Garrett wanted to know all the details.
And not everybody will want that or feel like they need that. That was the case for us. And I honestly feel like that was good for my heart as well, because I felt like when he was able to come to a place of truly forgiving me, I didn't feel like there was still anything hidden. Or, oh, well, but I did tell him about this part. So does he really forgive me? Does he really love me? Am I really known? So I feel like that was God's grace to us too. It was torture during the time, obviously, but I'm thankful for that nonetheless.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. So you both came clean. Garrett, likewise, as I had asked Brenna before, when you received her confession or admission at that point, how was that for you to hear?
Garrett Naufel: As Brenna shared, I really did think this is ridiculous. [00:28:19] I was almost ashamed. We're serving in our church, we're leaders there, I was on the cusp of being ordained as a pastor. That was going to be delayed because I had just come into light with my struggles fully a few months prior to that. So I had already said, like, "I don't think this is the worst timing on this."
But I knew as one of the leaders in the church, hey, if there's this accusation against one of us, you know, we have to at least acknowledge it's there and do the work to either say, Hey, we understand this is not the case. Or if it is, there's work to be done." And so I took it seriously, even though I thought it was ridiculous.
I will say over the years of the affair, I had very much sensed a distance. And that's putting it lightly, there too. [00:29:22] But I had essentially attributed it to, hey, this is a season in Brenna's a walk, and I don't know what's going on. But my job is to encourage my wife in the Lord and to weather it with her, even if I don't understand what's going on, even if I don't have the wise, my commitment, my promises to my wife is to be here.
So, yeah, when I received the confession, I was certainly surprised. Because, again, I thought I was very much like, "I'm so sorry I have to ask this." But because we are leaders in the church, and there is this rumor, and we have to deal with this, I was shocked.
I think at the same time, my deep desire was to show Brenna the mercy of Christ that we had both received abundantly from Him. I would say there was some shock and some grief. But I think at least in the moment, my initial desire is, okay, Jesus, how does the gospel apply here? [00:30:28] And how can I extend that to my wife in real and tangible ways?
That was my initial thinking. As we had more time to process then and all the other things start coming to the forefront, there was much more to deal with. But my initial response was even probably to try to rush to forgiveness.
Brenna Naufel: You did. I mean, you did. You said, "I forgive you" in that first sit-down meeting, and our other pastor was like, "Time out." That's great, but we need to figure out just all that has been done to you. What are you forgiving? Do you understand?
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, to not extend, quote-unquote, cheap grace to my wife, but to do the hard work. I'd say the most overwhelming thing was, Jesus, I want to trust you for this, and I want to extend love to my wife.
Laura Dugger: Which is incredible and such a gift from the Lord to have that outlook. But also you mentioned doing the hard work. How did the two of you work through this? [00:31:32]
Garrett Naufel: Some very clear things we definitely sought to be in the light with one another and with others. We committed very early on to do, for lack of better terminology, the work of forgiveness. So, to not extend cheap grace to one another. And to do the hard work of rebuilding trust. To really say to one another, hey, whatever it's going to take for me to show that I am living a life of integrity, that I'm rebuilding together with the Lord a life of integrity, I will do that. And really, no real boundaries on that, other than obviously nothing sinful or nothing completely unreasonable or crazy.
That was a big part of it, saying yes to... if Brenna's saying to me, hey, I want you to have on your computer this software like Covenant Eyes type stuff, then it was an immediate, yeah, okay, absolutely. I'll do that right now type of thing. [00:32:35]
Brenna Naufel: Other very practical things. Obviously, I did not... I'm going to say obviously, because this is actually a struggle for some people, but I left my job immediately. So I never went back. As soon as I confessed, I never went back to my job other than to pick up my things with Garrett.
I blocked any communication means that I would have had with this man. I made sure that he couldn't find me on Facebook. Obviously deleting numbers we had at that time. AOL chat was kind of the big thing. And so I just completely got rid of that off of my computer.
Garrett and I actually went through each other's just even social media connections and friends. And if there was just somebody that we felt uncomfortable with at that time, just because of the hurt and the wound that was there, then we kind of severed those connections for the sake of our relationship and the sake of our marriage.
I got rid of anything that this man had given to me because he had given me some things. We just completely purged our house of anything that we could in that regard. [00:33:34] We immediately got into counseling with a Christian counselor. That was probably the biggest piece that was, I would just say, honestly critical.
So we did marriage counseling to get couples counseling together as well as that individual counseling as well. I was there at least probably two or three times a week in the beginning, meeting and processing with this person. We had a kind of a small team almost assigned to each of us from other members in the church-
Garrett Naufel: For care and accountability.
Brenna Naufel: Yeah, care and accountability. ...that could really just be there to walk with us individually with things as well. Practical things. Like if Garrett had to go out of town... he was immediately put on sabbatical for six months, which was huge.
Garrett Naufel: Enormous gift to Aspire Church.
Brenna Naufel: Huge blessing so we can just be together. I think we obviously committed to being completely honest and transparent with one another. So if Garrett did ask me a question, no matter how uncomfortable it was to have to articulate the truth to that question and the things that were done, I was committed to being honest in my response. [00:34:43]
And if he just couldn't possibly think of all the right questions to ask me, if there was something that came to my mind, I was committed to go and confess it and to share it with him. I will say I didn't always do that lickety-split, you know, like, Wohoo, I'm going to go tell Garrett something else.
There was times where I would struggle and wrestle with that for a couple of days, because sometimes those usually came up when things felt like they're just a little bit easier that day or it wasn't as heavy. And then I would remember something else, you know, that we'd have to go tell him. But we're still committed to do that work. I'm so thankful that we did. Because it's just another thing that Satan can grab a hold of and hold on to if we don't continue to confess.
We had for Garrett, like once I went to bed because he always stayed up late at night, college ministry. But I usually worked a nine-to-five job. I was in the process of looking for another job. But as soon as I went to bed, then you just know no laptop, no computer, no nothing, even with the software on it. [00:35:43] You know, like we're just putting away the devices. We put things on our TV to even filter out. Not that we had subscriptions or anything to anything risque.
But, you know, there's just stuff out there, too, even with basic cable and those things at the time. So we put even kind of parental controls on things. So we wanted to see stuff like that.
Garrett Naufel: I think the biggest thing was just a wholehearted commitment, desire to throw ourselves at the mercy of Christ, at the foot of the cross, and say, "Jesus, you have to take it all. You have to be the one who does the work to redeem us here, to help us even with our wills, as Brenna said, to the point of where in our flesh there's going to be temptation to not do certain things, but to instead say, No, Lord, please help us to wholeheartedly pursue you.
Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. [00:36:42] Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life.
What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that's improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com. I just love the way you articulate this with blending of practical and what you learned from scripture. It just made me think of Hebrews 12:1 and the first part of 2, because you mixed all of these elements that it talks about where you were living in community, you were confessing, you were turning away from things of the past and you were running toward Jesus.
So I'll just read... I've got my Bible open. It's the Quest NIV. Hebrews 12:1 and the first part of 2 say, "Therefore since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author, and perfecter of our faith." [00:37:58] And you two just lived that out and shared that with us.
I'm also curious, were there any other ways that God really spoke to each of you throughout your healing journey?
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, I think for me, one of the most profound things was I understood that me pursuing my wife in truth and love and mercy and compassion and me pursuing Jesus was the best possible way that I could show the love of Jesus to my wife. That really to fulfill the burden of Christ was to bear this burden with my wife and to be an embodiment of the gospel to her. I would have no greater opportunity than to do this, to lay down my life and my quote-unquote rights for the sake of her heart and for her relationship with Jesus.
I really understood that as God saying this is where the rubber meets the road. You want to live out the gospel? Here's a profound opportunity for you to experience and live out what I've called you into. [00:39:06]
Brenna Naufel: For me, that's the aftermath of the affair. Really, probably two and a half, three years before we extended forgiveness and reconciled, we renewed our vows, all those kinds of things. It was a long journey. I would say it is the sweetest time that I've ever had with the Lord. He truly just meets us in the deepest, darkest valley. He taught me and just showed me so many things.
There is this big journey together with my counselor, too. As you mentioned earlier, Laura, it brought tears to my eyes when you did earlier about this little girl longing and wanting to be chosen and pursued as a result of those things. I definitely learned a lot just going back, looking at my childhood, what's there that I need to heal from. I felt God just tenderly with me in those moments.
Some specific things. [00:40:07] There was one significant event where God kind of gave me these four lessons, if you will. It was just about three or four months after my confession. Even though Garrett was on sabbatical, we still went to the staff retreat that our church had at that time, which was in Estes Park, Colorado. We're in Missouri still at this time, so this is in Estes Park.
We still went together, and it allowed me just a lot of time alone to get with the Lord. I went on a hike one day, and I just dedicated that time to God. I said, "God, I'm here. I am listening. Whatever you want to show me or teach me, I'm here." God really used that time.
Even starting off on that hike, I rounded this bend, and there were some tall grasses to the side. I heard a rustling in the grass. I was thinking, "Oh, no, what if there's a snake in there?" I heard the question, "Well, what if there is a snake?" I was like, "What if it bites me? What if it's poisonous?" Again, God was like, "Well, what if it does bite you and it is poisonous?" [00:41:13]
I responded with, "Well, we'd have to get the poison out." I felt like God was saying, exactly. You have been bitten by a snake and it's been causing death of life and joy and freedom. We have to get the poison out. I was understanding that to be all of my past hurt, the wounds that were done to me and the wounds that I've inflicted, the lies that I believed, certainly from my sin, I would have to get that poison out, otherwise, it would continue to kill me.
God was just really, again, helping me to embrace this deep healing process from all of those things and truly seeing Him for who He is and what He says is true instead of how I might see Him sometimes or what my heart feels about God at times.
So we continued on this path. I continued, me and God. We came up to these horses. I took this path specifically because I wanted to go by the horses because I had in my mind that I would have this amazing God encounter. [00:42:18] These horses would be galloping across the field. They would come over to me and recognize me and acknowledge me in some way. This is seriously what I was thinking.
Instead, I come and I see the first horse and it's just standing there. It's not acknowledging me. It's not even looking at me. And kind of I'm thinking, "What's the deal, buddy? What's up? Here I am. This is our moment." I saw horse after horse after horse that were actually tied by the bit and bridle super tight to the pole, like a fence that was in front of them. Again, I felt like God was sharing with me that I was like these horses because I was angry to see them. This is not right. This is not what horses are created for. Just being kind of stuck here like this. God was like, "You were like this horse. You were like this horse."
There's a verse that talks about, do not be like the horse or mule that must be controlled by bit and bridle. That had been me. [00:43:19] That was me stuck in my sin and not living as who God created me to be and not living in the freedom and joy that He created me to be in. It was just kind of this picture that He gave me with these horses.
I continued along and I'm just really enjoying my time with the Lord. Again, I took the path that the horses go on. People pay and they ride these horses to get to this park where I eventually was trying to get to. What I had not thought of is the horses don't go to the bathroom somewhere else before they go. On this path, there's just mounds and mounds of crap everywhere. I'm like, "Well, this is lovely. This isn't what I signed up for."
Again, I felt like God was even using that just saying, you know, life is like this path. I have promised you something beautiful, you know, in the future at the end but there's going to be a lot of crap along the way. And if you keep your eyes down and only focus on the crap, you're going to miss out on the beauty and the joy that I have surrounded you with. [00:44:24] Because, you know, you've got to look up is the message of you have to look up to me and you have to hold on to and trust my promises, hold on to me and trust the promises that I have given you.
Lastly, I made it through all the crap path and made it to the park that I was trying to get to. But I got really kind of mixed up. I had this terrible map and I wasn't sure how to complete the loop or which way to go to basically get back to the YMCA, which is where we were at in Estes Park there.
So I'm just wandering around. I'm kind of looking. I'm kind of acting like I know where to go, but I don't really know where to go. I finally had to ask someone for help. And even in that, I felt like God was teaching me and showing me that life is like this path. It's so easy to take a step in the wrong direction or to get off the path that I have intended for you.
You have to ask other people for help along the way. And because I was definitely afraid to ask anyone for help. That was kind of my shame that I wasn't worth helping or just that I was wrong. [00:45:31] So why would I ever ask somebody for help? So even in that, I feel like he was teaching me like, You might take a wrong step. You have to have people with you that help keep you on the right path as well.
So those are just a few of the things. Sorry for my long story. But yeah, God's just so sweet in meeting with me in so many ways.
Laura Dugger: That is so meaningful to hear how He personally met you and what a powerful encounter that was with him. I also love how He is lavish in His generosity because God not only chooses to heal us, but He can also restore and redeem our lives. And God certainly did that. He went on to redeem your marriage. And since that time, you two have renewed your wedding vows, you've had children, and now you even share that you have a marriage you never imagined possible. [00:46:33]
That's not to say that it's been perfect, because I know there were still struggles and loss along the way. But your life now reminds me of that first part of Joel 2:25 in the Bible that says, "And I will restore to you the years that the locusts hath eaten." So Garrett and Brenna, thank you for sharing about God's rescue and redemption story in your lives. If we're inspired to continue to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you like to direct us?
Brenna Naufel: I've written a book called From Lover to Beloved. It's experiencing God's hope, healing, and forgiveness after committing adultery. It's really written to the Christian or certainly those who may be wondering about this God thing who have committed adultery. It's written for them because I didn't see much out there for people in that boat. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of condemnation that can come. And yet God is so good and so faithful to forgive and to remove our guilt and to restore. [00:47:42] I wanted to share that hope and that message with people. It interweaves a lot of the stories even that I kind of got to share today and certainly many more.
But just sharing God's truth about His forgiveness, being able to forgive yourself, talks about confession and repentance. Again, that's called From Lover to Beloved. It's on Amazon. I also have a website From LovertoBeloved.com, where you can certainly contact us through that. There's some other resources out there as well. And then on my Instagram, it's just @BrennaNaufel. So my name @@BrennaNaufel.
So even for reaching Garrett, I think probably through our website or things like that would probably work best for him directly as well.
Garrett Naufel: And we're very open to individual interaction. We appreciate and welcome direct messages, whatever avenue people want to speak directly with one or both of us.
Laura Dugger: Well, I will definitely add links to the show notes for today's episode so that people can find you easily there. Well, you both are already familiar that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so I just have one final question for both of you today. What is your savvy sauce? [00:48:59]
Brenna Naufel: Yeah, just the simple idea of asking before acting. I'm trying really hard to take time to really ask the Lord just for wisdom, for insight, for direction before I just run out and act. Because I can just like go out and do all the things and think that I'm doing all this amazing stuff but I haven't really taken time to ask the Lord if this is something He might have for me. Speaking kind of general. But just really asking before acting is what I'm working on right now. I would say that's my savvy sauce at the moment.
Garrett Naufel: I think having an unwavering commitment by God's grace and power to confessing quickly to things, having things, you know, not piecemealing being in the light, spreading it across various people and therefore saying, you know, I'm in the light because 10 people know this, but no one person knows everything.
And so, yeah, just have practically saying picking your spouse for sure. If you're married, your spouse should know you top to bottom. Make that commitment to make that known. [00:50:04] But I think to having at least a few other mature believers who know your life and who you're quick to say, Hey, here's what's going on. Here's the whole of my life, not just the, quote-unquote, prettier presentable parts. That has been practically very profound in us living in freedom of interest with Jesus. And so I would, without flinching, recommend that to anyone and everyone who would follow after Jesus.
Laura Dugger: Love it. Well, Garrett and Brenna, I can't say thank you enough. Thank you for your transparency and for entrusting us with your story so that we can see God a little bit clearer and be encouraged by His grace that's freely offered to each of us. You've testified how he can restore beauty from ashes. And I'm so grateful. So thank you for being my guests.
Garrett Naufel: Thank you.
Brenna Naufel: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. We're honored. [00:51:06]
Garrett Naufel: Yeah, it's a privilege and pleasure. Thank you so much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:52:08] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:53:08] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. [00:54:03] Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 13, 2024
Monday May 13, 2024
Special Patreon Release: Story of Perseverance with Jenny Boyett
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 46:1 NIV “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble."
Jenny Boyett is a business professional with over 25 years of strategic thinking, relationship building, leadership development, business development, and communication experience ranging from a local recruiting business to a $100M non-profit. She has a demonstrated ability to lead a team with a focus on professional development, event planning and public speaking. She is energized by relationships—a visionary networker who sees the bigger picture and can motivate an individual and/or a team to accomplish goals and be the best version of themselves.
She is a Master Working Genius Facilitator, a Certified Temperament Coach, and sought after public speaker. A graduate of Georgia Southern University, a huge proponent of counseling, and has recently found a passion for pickleball.
Other Savvy Sauce Podcast Episodes Mentioned:
118 Parenting All the Temperaments with Jenny Boyett
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Magic Mind (Get up to 56% off your subscription or save 20% off your one time purchase when you use the code SavvySauce20 at checkout)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: If this is your first time here, welcome. You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release, so here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.
But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit.
We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. [00:01:28]
If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs.
We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.
If you're a parent like me, and oftentimes, regardless of our kid's age and phase of life, we are looking for extra energy, and so I want to recommend Magic Mind. It's the world's first performance shot. You can learn more at magicmind.com/thesavvysauce and get up to 56% off your subscription or save 20% off your one-time purchase when you use the code SavvySauce20 at checkout. [00:02:33]
And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons.
My guest is trainer, speaker, and consultant Jenny Boyette. Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Thank you. It's good to be back.
Laura Dugger: Well, I know that we're all excited to get to know you better, and we didn't cover all of this during our previous chat together. So will you just tell us where you're from and how you came to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?
Jenny Boyett: Sure. Well, I'm kind of from all over. My parents got divorced when I was young and my mom remarried, and he was a professional soccer player when it was big back in the 70s and 80s. So we moved around a lot.
But I grew up pretty much in between Florida and Georgia. We went to a lot of different churches, and I always went to church camps and heard about Jesus. Definitely wanted to follow Him and accept Him. [00:03:33]
I would say I would have considered myself a Christian, but it wasn't until college that I started to understand what it was like to have a personal relationship with Jesus. He felt kind of far away until then and was able to get into a great ministry that I felt like really developed my faith and helped me understand what it looked like to walk daily with Jesus.
So I would say I was saved in middle school, but that it wasn't until probably my late teens, early 20s that I understood what it truly meant to be walking side by side with Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.
Laura Dugger: Then from that point forward, where did you go for college and what did you envision life to be like? Did you think you would get married someday?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, good question. I went to Georgia Southern University down in Statesboro, which was a pretty small town for me. I was in Atlanta at the time and my brother and sister... Well, my older brother was at Georgia, so I didn't want to go there. [00:04:32] So I went to Georgia Southern.
I just wanted to have the typical college experience. I went through Rush and was a sorority girl. I just figured I would go to college, I would meet my husband in college and I would get married after college. And then we would move back to Atlanta and have the white picket fence with the 2.5 kids and the dog and life would be glorious. So that was my vision. But I didn't have a lot of vision. Once the kids were born and the husband went to work, I didn't really see much past having the kids and having the house.
Laura Dugger: So how did you come to meet your husband?
Jenny Boyett: Well, we met at school at Southern at a fraternity sorority party and just kind of started dating for about three and a half years. We did have a breakup in between that time and I was devastated. I think I moved around so much as a kid that when I met him, he was from a small town and his whole family lived there. And I just figured I would move there with him and whatever he wanted to do, I could just be the great fellowship hall lady at the Baptist church and call it a day. [00:05:40]
So that's really what I was thinking up until when we broke up. We were looking at rings and trying to decide what our future held and then it kind of hit me out of nowhere. He broke up with me. From that moment, I didn't quite know what my life envisioned. I was pretty much just banking on that life.
And so I think that was really one of the first times that I was on my knees, weeping, crying out to the Lord to kind of show me a path. So we were broken up for about six months or so and then he decided he wanted to try and get back together. So he did. He moved to Atlanta to pursue me and decided he wasn't going to live in the small town anymore and we were going to get married and do all of this in the big city of Atlanta. So that's what we did.
Laura Dugger: Then fast forward, so you're married, and then your first time becoming a mom. Was that at all what you expected?
Jenny Boyett: No. I mean, I think I kind of had expected you get married, you're married for three to five years, you try to have kids, and you just get pregnant. [00:06:46] That's what happens, right? Well, that's not what had happened for us.
We struggled with fertility. We weren't getting pregnant and we didn't quite know what was wrong. So we ended up in a fertility clinic, and we're just getting our options together and trying to find out, do we adopt, do we go through some fertility treatments? How is this going to go?
We definitely prayed about it and had met with a lot of different people and we decided we were going to attempt in vitro fertilization for the first time and just see. So we had generous parents and saved some of our own money. We went through the process, and we got pregnant.
Some people go through the fertility process, and I really wanted like my whole family in the freezer is what they call it. But I didn't get that. We ended up with three eggs, and then only two of them were viable. So they implanted those two eggs, and I got pregnant. And I got pregnant with triplets. [00:07:45]
One of those eggs split, so I have an identical set of girls and then a fraternal girl. And so nothing about being pregnant, nothing about bringing home a newborn, nothing went as I had expected. It was very dangerous and risky. There was hospital visits and hospital stays and just a lot of help needed after the girls came home. It was very chaotic, for sure.
I never got to be the cute little wife, new mom pulling into Target, taking their one little baby in and everybody oohing and aahing over the baby. We were kind of like a show everywhere we went. I certainly didn't run into Target for a quick errand or anything. That wasn't really possible with triplet newborns.
Laura Dugger: I can't even imagine that. Even from our previous time together, you shared that you're a yellow temperament. And so I'm just wondering when it's a high-risk pregnancy and then even welcoming home these three little girls, was that hard to not get to spend as much time with your friends and with adult people? [00:08:52] Or what was that season like for you?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah, it was. I mean, I think God had given me the yellow temperament in order to be able to just roll with the punches and go with the flow and see the best in the situation. But it was difficult. I was seeing a counselor during that time as well.
I remember the counselor saying, "I know you're a new mom and you're happy and there's postpartum going on, but you do need to give yourself a room to mourn." And it's to mourn the fact that, yes, you're happy to be a mom and you're grateful that you got pregnant. So many people go through infertility and then never are able to conceive. But it didn't go the way that you had hoped and wanted. And it was risky. So it's okay to give yourself room to mourn the way that this went."
I think that was really helpful advice because I did have to give myself that space because it wasn't what I had wanted it to be. There were some parts that were better and there were some parts that were much, much harder. [00:09:53]
I was lucky enough that I had an incredible community around me and they brought meals for months. I would plan to connect with my friends through them dropping off meals. I would get out, you know, at least once or twice a week to try to just get away. I was just intentional with that time because I didn't need as much time alone, but I needed to be smart with where I was going to spend that time when I had it away from the kids.
Laura Dugger: Did you work while you were raising your little ones?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I work at North Point Community Church and I was able to take an extended maternity leave, but then I did go back to work basically full-time. It was 30 hours a week. We have an incredible weekday program there, so the girls could go with me there, but that was definitely tricky.
My husband traveled a lot and I would be by myself and be taking them into school and navigating all of their first year and a half of life. [00:10:55] Pretty much working mom, husband who travels before I got any real help in the house to help navigate that.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I can see where that is a ton added to your plate. I guess I kind of want to blend these conversations. So even referring back with your temperament, do you see with moms of any of the temperaments, are there certain ones that are more likely to work while raising children?
Jenny Boyett: Honestly, it's been a mixture. I mean, I haven't ever thought about it to pinpoint specifically, but when I think of my friends that are working, I honestly know all the different temperaments that work. I think in how they work and how they manage their household looks differently, but I don't necessarily think the decision to work or not work is based on temperament alone. I think there's a lot of factors that come into it.
Because I have as many different temperaments of friends that stay home as I do that are working. But the difference that I have noticed in them is how they manage it and who gets more overwhelmed or who's more structured. [00:12:00] I think that changes and the flow of that is based on the temperament.
Laura Dugger: Well, I want to take a moment though just to pick your brain with your expertise. So could you go through each of those temperaments as moms and just tell us what you've noted for those working moms? How do they tend to manage that balance?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I would say for myself, I'm a yellow mom and it was really just not being as scheduled and not being maybe as hard on myself at times and just trying to make things more fun. There was a lot of last-minute, Oh, I didn't get to see them today, so let's go to the park," or there's like, let's just grab Chick-fil-A for dinner instead of me cooking."
So as a yellow, I definitely felt like I was more spontaneous as a young mom and brought in as much fun as I could. Whereas my red moms, I definitely feel like were more planned and had a little bit more control of their household. [00:12:59]
One of my very good friends is a red mom and I mean, the week is pretty much planned out. She didn't forget a whole lot of activities and she would strategically sign up to volunteer in the class when it worked with her work schedule, or she honestly didn't feel bad if she couldn't be in the class.
Whereas I, as a yellow, was kind of stretching myself thin to maybe be everywhere at every time and would forget some of those times. My good friend, she would really have the kids work around what her work schedule was.
My blue friends, they are just very structured, so very organized. But I saw them more so working their work schedule around what the kids would benefit from. So if they needed to, you know, leave early a couple of days a week based on the kids, they would navigate that so that they could be there to be the one to pick up the kids and that kind of stuff.
Whereas my red friends more so delegated some of those responsibilities to a neighbor or to a husband or to a friend. [00:14:04] Not that they weren't there for their kids because they totally were, but were more likely to maybe put work in front of some of the tasks that somebody else could do as far as working mom stuff.
But my blue friends are very organized. I feel like they, you know, plan out their lunches ahead of time and make sure they have everything. They would plan their meals out. Whereas me, I'd be going to cook a meal as a yellow and be like, Oh my gosh, I don't have cream of chicken soup. What can I cook now? Whereas that just never happened to my blue friends because they had it really planned out accordingly.
And then my green friends, I'm thinking of one mom in particular, you know, interesting enough, I feel like my green friend that I'm thinking of probably beat herself up the most in a way because I think that she did have that part people, part task kind of thing going on. And I think that it was just a really hard balance to do all that she wanted to do and found herself having to cheat something all the time. [00:15:05]
I think she's the one that always felt like she was never doing a good job. She's such a great mom and always was engaged with the people of her house and loving them and supporting them and always being there for them. But definitely took on probably more of their responsibility at times when they would forget their lunch at school, let's say.
The yellow wouldn't even realize it or get the message that the little girl didn't have their lunch at school. My red friend would get the message and say, "Tough luck. She'll never forget her lunch again." My blue friend wouldn't let the child get out of the car without the lunch because she knew that it was sitting in the seat. My green friend was the one that was quickly making the lunch and running it up to the school just to make sure the little girl had something to eat.
So that kind of narrows it down a little bit of what my perspective has been of some of my different friends with the different temperaments.
Laura Dugger: I just want to pause real quick because I had given you a teaser earlier about Magic Mind, and I just wanted to take a moment to tell you more about it. [00:16:03] I first heard about Magic Mind from a health-conscious mother of seven, how it helped her and her husband with sustained energy and focus. She kept talking about the natural ingredients that resulted with no crash.
I personally never drink energy drinks and I'm prone to insomnia so I have to be careful with anything that boosts energy. But I'm always looking to intake healthier and more nutritious options. So when I learned more about the ingredients list of Magic Mind, I was willing to give it a try.
I first tried Magic Mind the day our family was traveling and I was amazed that it did what it said it would do. I experienced focus and clarity and an energy boost, but I also didn't have a crash later and I still slept well that night. I was so excited that I kept trying it each day that we were traveling and continued with the amazing results. [00:17:08]
So whenever I learn about something new that's working great, I love to share it with you. So I'd highly recommend you give Magic Mind a try. Visit magicmind.com/TheSavvySauce, and then you can get up to 56% off your subscription or save 20% off of your one-time purchase when you use the code SavvySauce20 at checkout. I can't wait for you to try this too, so let me know about your amazing experience as well.
For you personally then, how did you find this vocation that was so life-giving to you?
Jenny Boyett: Well, I was in the business world for many years and I was kind of moving up the corporate ladder and my husband was moving up the corporate ladder and we were like, Okay, something's got to give. We knew we wanted to have kids. We went to North Point and he said, "Why don't you just put your resume in and just see?" And I'm like, "What would I do? I never thought I would be working at a church." [00:18:07]
I did and there was this director of assimilation, which was helping married couples get connected into community. And I love connecting people and I think with moving around so much. I always really wanted to help people find their people. And so it was a really natural fit.
I took the job, which then helped us even move towards having a family because I wasn't going to be traveling and was going to be at home. It worked out really well. It was just a path that God led me to. And it was when I was working there for about a year, we realized that, Oh, no, we're not getting pregnant. We've got some fertility issues."
And there wasn't a better place on the planet to be working to have resources and others that had navigated adoption and fertility. And so I felt like I had a plethora of great counsel right there at my workplace.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I feel like you just can't say enough good about North Point Ministries. One of their satellite churches is actually when I became a believer, that was the first place that I became a church member and experienced growth there. [00:19:13] So love North Point.
Jenny Boyett: Awesome. Yes. It's been such a blessing to me personally and professionally.
Laura Dugger: Well, and then going back to your marital relationship, at what point did you start to notice some red flags?
Jenny Boyett: Well, hindsight's always 2020, right? So there were red flags prior to even getting married. And I think that's something that God and I had to navigate because He had showed me signs and I think it absolutely has something to play with my temperament of being yellow, always assuming the best in people and choosing to fill in the gap with the best all the time, even if there's a reason why not to.
So I definitely think that played into my temperament as well as wanting to just move forward, you know, not wanting to see something and just thinking, "Okay, if I don't look there, I won't see it."
I would say now in hindsight, they were there all along. But for me, I would say it was probably maybe our second or third year of marriage when he was traveling a ton and I just started to feel more alone in the marriage. [00:20:19] He wasn't as emotionally connected and work was absolutely taking a priority in his life. And my role was kind of, you know, taking a step back. It started feeling like you've often heard people say, we were roommates living in a house together versus life partners doing life together.
Laura Dugger: And when you were in the midst of this, so thinking of you as a yellow, probably just reframing and assuming the best, how did you handle that growing distance? Was that something that you brought up to communicate with him? Or did you keep that to yourself?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah, I did bring it up quite a bit. And then we just filled in the gaps when we were together, cramming in as much fun in life as we could. It was almost more so when he was managing it when we were together, he started to be more present. But then when he was away is when it started to... I would get down.
And so I just kind of chalked it up to, you know, I don't like to be alone at my house and so it's probably a me problem. [00:21:25] And just started to kind of process that internally versus externally. I definitely had checks in my spirit for sure before we got married. And then I would say, yeah, by that third or fourth year of marriage, I definitely was having checks in my spirit.
Laura Dugger: So how did everything unfold from that point forward?
Jenny Boyett: You know, we got really plugged into our church. Everything on the outside looked like it was okay and I just felt a gap in our emotional connection. I felt like as he was talking about it, he definitely made it feel like it was a "me" problem. That I was needy or that I had expectations that were bigger than what he could provide for me. So I definitely took that on as that this was a "me" problem.
It wasn't until, gosh, I would say the girls were born and then chaos starts unfolding just with life and you're surviving, not necessarily thriving, that I started noticing there was quite a bit of depression in him. [00:22:29] He was withdrawn. Much more withdrawn than he had been. I really felt like I was raising... I was doing everything. I was working full-time and I was raising the girls by myself. And I just felt alone a lot of the time.
We definitely had talks along the way and I would bring it up, and again, it was reflected to me that this was a me issue. I was the only one that was experiencing this. But I would say it was definitely in about 2006 and 2007 when I noticed he started drinking more and was just continuing to be gone more and more and more. He was traveling maybe 200 days out of the year and I just was very, very alone.
We were in a small group and kind of with a mentor and one of the mentors verbalized, "Hey, is everything okay? I'm seeing some signs." I think that was a relief to me because then I could finally talk to someone about it and say, "Hey, is this odd?" [00:23:29] I didn't really know what was normal and what wasn't normal in a sense of an emotional connection with your spouse. And so him kind of bringing it up and asking me about the drinking and asking me about the travel really allowed me to begin to extrovert some of those concerns that I had.
Laura Dugger: So that check in the spirit then that you're starting to process and verbalize with the mentor couple, were any of those questions in your mind confirmed?
Jenny Boyett: Absolutely. Yes. I think that's what really opened the door for some more authentic communication between the four of us and having conversations, kind of digging into some things, and asking more questions.
At that point there was some behavior that would come up that just seemed very risky or off the wall that was addressed more often. So we were tracking with them. I felt like everything was getting out on the table. So I felt a ton of relief that we were going to be headed in the right direction. [00:24:33]
At that point, my husband had said he was an alcoholic, so he had admitted he was an alcoholic. And so I felt actual relief during that meeting because I thought, "Okay, we know the problem. I'm not crazy. This is what's going on. And okay, we can get help for this. He can get help for this."
So he got a counselor, started, you know, attending AA meetings, got hooked up with a sponsor. So I was like, "Okay, we got that under control. Now let's move on." But it was very short-lived until there was like another hiccup that kind of came to light that it was like, Oh, oh, this isn't all that it is. We need to figure out something more.
What that was, was some excessive spending. So I found that our entire home equity line had been maxed out without my knowledge, and I was floored. Then we were meeting with this mentor couple then and got into a MoneyWise program. [00:25:31] And it was like, How did this happen?
I think what now I know is that there was an addiction swap. There was refraining from drinking, but it then had switched to spending, excessive spending. And it was on everything that you could imagine. I don't pay attention to like rims on cars and that kind of stuff. I mean, we're talking about watches that are $10,000 to new rims to new clothes.
I would obviously notice some of the clothes, but was then told, "Oh, that's not new," or "I've had that," or "No, you're crazy," or, "Oh, a client bought that for me" or something like that.
Again, I think if you want to be deceived, it's probably easy to be deceived, but it's also to keep in mind that if someone wants to deceive you, they will deceive you. You know, they get very good at telling you in your face, in your eyes things that they are desperate for you to believe are true.
I think it was the perfect storm. My yellow temperament that wanted to believe and that somebody that was a really good liar kind of came together and it was the perfect storm. [00:26:39]
Laura Dugger: Wow. Just going back, when you were saying some of that risky behavior, just some of those red flags, did that look like drinking while driving or things like that?
Jenny Boyett: Well, at that point he had given up drinking. So it was more like getting a tattoo or planning a last-minute trip for us somewhere really expensive. I mean, I definitely think the tattoo was a really risky one, but I didn't even know about. Just showed up as it's a "surprise!". Just very impulsive behavior. Like a lot of also last-minute business trips would come up. "Oh, I got to leave tomorrow morning." It's like, "What? I didn't know about that."
It just felt like definitely more spontaneous impulsivity and some risky behaviors coming in there. Not so much drinking and driving, although that very well could have been happening, but I didn't know that at that point. [00:27:38]
Laura Dugger: Okay. So you're seeing this change in the person unfolding right in front of you, more impulsive behavior. And at this time, so you're working full-time, you've got triplet daughters. Did you also have your fourth daughter?
Jenny Boyett: Well, we did. So in 2009, we had my fourth daughter and that's really when a lot of the risky behavior started coming up. The tattoo would happen. So, yes, it was definitely as things got more chaotic in our house, his behavior became a little bit more withdrawn and more self-focused, I would say, on the things that he needed to do.
Like I remember when I was literally eight and a half months pregnant, he sprung on me a last-minute two-week trip to China that he had. And I was in tears. Like, "Are you kidding me? You can't leave. I can't even bend over." It's just one of those things that I'm like, "Okay, but he's got to work." But that was very impulsive. It was nothing was going to stop that trip. Even my tears weren't going to stop that trip. [00:28:39]
Laura Dugger: That's such a hard place to be when you feel like you have no influence over your spouse and you see them making these poor decisions right in front of you and not caring for you and the children at that time when you really needed it.
Jenny Boyett: It was really hard. It really was. At that point, I also knew he was suffering with depression. And so trying to be very sensitive to what his needs were and knowing... As a yellow, I remember we were talking one day and I said, "Well, on a scale of one to ten, what number are you?" And he said a two. And I thought, "Oh my gosh, I don't know if I've ever been a two. I'm a yellow, I'm always like an eight or a nine. Like I'm trying to see the best.
So I was really trying to walk on eggshells to make his life as easy as possible so that it wouldn't plunge him into either addiction or being depressed, any self-harm, or any of that. [00:29:39]
Laura Dugger: I'm just guessing that that pressure, that you're holding all of that, at some point that has to fall through where you can't be the savior for everyone. Was there anything that, kind of that proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, was there anything that happened after that point?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I would say as only God could do, He had lined up some women in my life all during this time and had me going through this hope program. Now it's called Renew at the church. And I was in counseling. So I really feel like all of those things almost were a basis to walk me through the trauma. Like it kept me hanging on, so that I told people, they'd go, oh, let's just go out and have a drink. And I'm like, "If I go out and have a drink, I'm not going to stop So I can't do that." I may binge on Netflix or something.
I was able to have women in my life and people really guarding, you know, having guardrails for me because it was such a trying time. [00:30:39] I just thought of the thing that broke the camel's back that actually was another piece of this risky behavior was that he bought a gun and we had not even talked about owning a gun in our home. And I'm not for or against it. It just was a big surprise to me to one day hear, not even from him, but from a family member that he had shown the gun to. It was like, "What's going on?" That's when we just started to dive in.
I had constantly felt like there was more to the stories that I was hearing. And so that's when I really went digging. He was on a trip one time and I just started digging through a bunch of stuff and emails and receipts, and that was when I had found out that it wasn't just our home equity line. There were five or six credit cards that I didn't know about. There was some inappropriate relationships with coworkers that I had found emails with. There were receipts for drinking.
So, at this point, all of it's going on. [00:31:38] There's drinking, there's inappropriate relationships with other women and there's excessive spending. And so it all came to a head at once. It was 2011 and it was, oh my gosh.
He was away on a trip, and so I'd called the, you know, the mentors and the people that had walked with me. And we kind of had to come to Jesus and brought him in once he got home from the trip and was like, "Okay, what is going on? Something's got to change."
At that point, I just knew there had been infidelity. I felt like I didn't even know the life I was living. It was very, very hard. But as some people that are listening or those that may know this, you know, when you back somebody who is definitely struggling with either addiction or mental illness into a corner, it's not that they just fold or not all the times. I always say there's two different people. There's broken people and busted people. Unfortunately, my husband was busted at the time. He wasn't broken. [00:32:36]
So he spent the next several months really just trying to deny and fight through things and makeup very outlandish things that tried to disprove what we had already proved. So it was a very difficult time.
Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?
Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.
Was he diagnosed with any mental illness during this process?
Jenny Boyett: He was. He was diagnosed with bipolar, bipolar II, and got some medication. [00:33:42] We started seeing a psychiatrist. Honestly, again, at that point when we had that diagnosis, even though I couldn't prove infidelity, but I knew there was drinking and I knew there was spending, I felt as my yellow self a sense of hope of like, Okay, we've got another answer. Once we get the cocktail that they call it for mental health figured out, life will go back to some sort of manageable process, and he won't have all of these issues because we'll have the right medicine.
Unfortunately, that was not the case. It took quite a while, and the medicine never quite got to a place that leveled him out, if you will. In hindsight, I know that you have to be honest with your psychiatrist to get diagnosed properly. And you also have to refrain from some of the addictions, some of the substance abuse while you're trying to get the right medicine, which now I know he didn't do. So the medicine was... we never got to a place that I felt like we were normal again. [00:34:42]
Then the pastors and the people that were walking with us basically said, "Hey, if there's any more lies or any more spending, then you've got to separate." And so that's exactly what happened. So we spent the January in 2012, 30 days separate. That seemed to change his life. He hated being away from our family. He started seeing a new counselor and was having biweekly meetings with some pastors. We were all super encouraged that this was going to be the game changer.
I felt like the Lord spoke to me that time that if there's anything that I do figure out or that comes to light, I'm going to forgive him and we're going to start new. That was really hard. I was like, Did I really hear that from the Lord? But that's what I did.
So in our counseling, trying to come back after that 30-day separation, I was really ready to hear whatever truth he had to share, infidelity, more spending, addiction. [00:35:48] The counselor gave us two weeks to come up with what we call our personal inventory list. If there was anything that either one of us needed to share so that we could start on new ground.
That two weeks was really hard because I'm thinking every day, like, What am I going to hear? How is this going to be? This is going to be terrible."
The meeting ended up being on Valentine's Day of all days of 2012. We got into the meeting with the counselor and the counselor said, "All right, let me hear your inventory." And he said he had nothing. I just sat there and I thought, "Oh my gosh, that's not true." I knew it with every bone in my being that wasn't true. That pretty much is what sent us on this quest for truth. I believe everybody that had been walking with us, even the counselor knew that wasn't true.
If you fast forward, it took about until November of that year for truth to come out. [00:36:52] And in that meantime, we tried to make it work. Then he eventually was busted again by spending. So he was given the choice to go to treatment or to move out and he chose to move out.
He absolutely moved out and abandoned me and the girls. He moved his paycheck and he just completely went downhill from there. It wasn't until his company got involved November of 2012 that he finally was taken to treatment. Wasn't willing to go, but was taken, didn't have much of an option. At that point, he was fully involved with other women, spending money, and drinking. So it was the low of the lows. But that was in November of 2012.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So since that point, you've been separated, since 2012 when he chose to abandon the family. Is that right? [00:37:52]
Jenny Boyett: No, not since then. Well, I almost feel like it's a lifetime miniseries and it's so intriguing. But then I realized I'm the main character and it's almost unbelievable. But we have not just been separated since 2012. So he went to treatment. It was a 90-day treatment program, and we had a friends and family weekend and I went and he literally was a changed man. It took 90 days. He admitted all of the infidelity was true, all of the spending.
I found out, I mean, a list of personal inventory of things that were just shocking. It included friends of mine. It was just the low of the low. But he got out of treatment and went to a transition home and lived there for five months.
At this point... sorry, I missed a big part... right before he went into treatment in September, October of 12, he was spending excessive amounts of money and really had started cashing out all of his 401k. [00:39:02] And so I had put together with the suggestion of others, it wasn't my idea, but basically a board of advisors. And this was five near and dear people, friends, pastors, counselors that could guide me because I did not have the emotional bandwidth or the objectivity to know what to do when.
So this board would meet often and we would guide my next step. And so we knew in September that my next step was that I needed to file for divorce if for no other reason, with the hope of getting him help. So I did file for divorce and I had him served. So divorce was on the treatment. But I put everything on hold when he went into treatment because my hope I never really... I didn't want a divorce. I just wanted to get to the bottom of things and I wanted to have a foundation of truth. So we had that.
But he got out of treatment and we had a meeting and he said, "I will sign these divorce papers and ask if you would hold on to them and give me a second chance because I'm going to spend the rest of my life pursuing you and the girls and make this up to you." [00:40:16] I couldn't believe it. But it was almost like an insurance policy, if you will, because during his worst times, he was getting very nasty with threats of financial support for me and the girls or custody of me and the girls. So these papers were written up all to my benefit and he signed them and I signed them and the counselor held on to them.
So for two and a half years, we went to counseling often. We were very involved in the recovery community. He did move back in the house, but he moved into the basement and we did not sleep in the same bed or anything. But for all intents and purposes, after about the first year, we were 100% moving towards reconciliation.
It just was really hard. And forgiveness can take a while. Even not just for me to forgive him, but I think it was taking a while for him to forgive himself. [00:41:17] And so he asked me to remarry him and we renewed our vows December 19th in 2015.
So he went into treatment February of 2012 and we renewed our December of 2015. It is only because of God. Only because of God. I mean, I never thought that I would be able to kiss him or be intimate with him again after everything that I had heard of the infidelity. And I can honestly say God absolutely mended my broken heart and that I fully trusted him again. Fully trusted him again. I would have bet my life that nothing would have ever, ever, ever happened again after everything we had been through. But that wasn't in the cards.
Unfortunately, July 2017, it came to light that he had relapsed, specifically with drinking, and was unwilling to get back into recovery. [00:42:29] So I pulled out all the stops again and got the pastors and the people and even the recovery community and we tried to rally again to get him back into recovery or back into a place that he could even be sober-minded to hear things. And he was unwilling.
Again, he chose to move out. Unfortunately, it's been pretty downhill since then. He has lost jobs, cashed out all his 401k, filed bankruptcy. There's just been a lot of consequences to that. Did go back into treatment because of another company that he had worked for. But unfortunately, that was just a really short program that was more of checking a box.
So we divorced officially in 2018. Since then he hasn't been super involved with the girls at all until recently. [00:43:31] I feel like he is maybe getting to be in a better place. Time will tell. But we pray for him every day. I would absolutely love for him to be able to be a co-parent and to invest in our girls because I know how much they desperately need that. But it's been a really hard road for them in this whole process.
So we just are all continuing to be in counseling and trying to be the best versions of ourselves while praying for their dad.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you for sharing everything that's led up to this point, even to today. As you are looking back, I think that this is going to really encourage someone, especially if they're married to someone who struggles with addiction or has that bipolar diagnosis, there are not many safe places where they can have these candid conversations in the church. [00:44:31]
So as you've continued staying in God's care through this whole process, what do you think it was that God and others did to carry you along? And what was most helpful?
Jenny Boyett: I would say that it's really hard for other people that haven't walked a walk like I have to do anything other than listen. Because until you experience that, it's very easy to say, Oh, I would divorce him or I would leave him or I wouldn't put up with that. Or I would never divorce him. I would never leave him. I would never break my vows.
I would say until you're in that situation, the best thing that you can do is listen. If they're asking you for advice, obviously you share it. But if they're not asking you, bring a meal, offer to take their kids to give them some alone time, get them a massage. [00:45:34] You know, really just love them and be there for them and try to not offer your opinion a whole lot. Because it's hard. You're not going to please everybody. I mean, I had as many people frustrated that I got back together with him at that point as I did that when we broke up at that point. And so, you know, really just trying to understand.
Ask questions more so of what is your friend feeling and thinking? I remember one of my friends, instead of judging while this had been going on for so many years, she said, Tell me where this energy is coming from for you to fight for him for so much. And I thought that's a great question because I was able to look at her and I said, I want to be able to tell my girls when they are 23, 24 years old and say, "Mom, what happened?" That I can look at them and I can tell them that I literally did everything in my power to keep our marriage together and to give them the dad that I know is the dad that he'd want to be. [00:46:40] And until that point comes where I feel like I've done everything, I'm going to keep trying."
I felt like that gave her an enormous amount of insight and also an ability to support me in that. But then also the verbiage to say, you know, when the second time happened and he chose to leave again to say, When is enough? Like, when do you think enough will be enough? Because I'm just curious.
It really helped open some dialogue for me and also then helped open my eyes of like, yeah, I'm so worried about the story that my girls are going to be living if they come from a divorced home but I've forgotten about the story they could be living by living in the home we're currently living in with a husband that's an addict and them watching their mom continue to not have a firm line in the sand of what's acceptable. [00:47:39]
I think living with somebody and walking with them and doing life with them and asking the questions will then give you the ability to guide them when there's a time to guide them.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you for answering that. I almost feel like it's not even fair to ask you to analyze all of that, but I think that is so helpful. Also then speaking to the husband or wife, the spouse who's married to someone who hasn't looked the way that they've expected, is there any encouragement or even practical wisdom you would want to share with them?
Jenny Boyett: Yes. I had a counselor tell me and ask me about a picture of my husband as a child. And I have this picture of him with his little bowl cut and this little striped shirt. He's probably 8 years old. I look at that picture often.
And the counselor said, "Look at this picture. [00:48:38] Do you think that this little boy ever wanted to grow up to be the man that he is right now?" And I said, "No." And he said, "Whenever you're talking to him or interacting with him and he's pushing your buttons, I want you to think about that 8-year-old little boy, because he's still in there."
That was a game changer to me because I knew the potential that my husband had. I knew the good man that he was, that he had lost his way. And instead of bowing up and matching his energy of deceit and lies and false accusations, it took Jesus for sure. But if I could keep that vision in my mind and try to always talk to him in the way that I knew he wanted to be, it would be easier and it would speak life into him. [00:49:37] And don't get me wrong. I'm no Mother Teresa. I did plenty that I can go back and go, Oh my gosh, I lost it on that occasion.
But I would say for anyone that has a husband that you're struggling with right now or a wife and you are so angry and so frustrated and so hurt, think of them in a sense of, I can promise you they never wanted to be who they are right now. Ever. And you may be the only person that can speak to them to their potential and try to use your influence to have them be the best version of themselves. And I would encourage you to use that influence for good.
Laura Dugger: That's an incredibly gracious and insightful response. I am curious, does he know Jesus?
Jenny Boyett: He does. In fact, he would say that he was saved. I mean, he played the part and did things that were expected of him. But it was his second night of treatment the first time in 2012 that he felt like Jesus met him. [00:50:41] And he accepted Jesus, and then he was baptized on Father's Day of June 2013. So he does know Jesus.
Sometimes it's hard to see the fruits of the Spirit, but I believe that Jesus more than anybody is calling him to live the best version of himself and is with him and is just patiently waiting for him to turn back towards him.
Laura Dugger: Hmm. That brings me to one more question. Jenny, what is your hope then for the future?
Jenny Boyett: Gosh, my hope for the future is that he becomes sober and well and the best version of himself following Jesus with a passion, and that that in turn then has him pursue his girls with the same passion, to be in their life, to be somebody that is wise and that guides them and is protecting them and wants to shepherd them throughout the rest of their years. [00:51:48]
Laura Dugger: We don't usually do this, but would it be okay if we all prayed together right now?
Jenny Boyett: That would be great.
Laura Dugger: Heavenly Father, thank you for Jenny. Thank you for her willingness to share this. It's not just a story, Lord. It's her life. And she so generously and vulnerably entered even into all of that pain for someone's benefit today, Lord. I'm not sure who you're trying to reach or all of us, but I pray that these words would land tenderly that Your Holy Spirit would enlighten what we are called to do with it.
But I just want to lift Jenny up right now. I want to thank You for her. I want to thank You for the way You created her and her temperament and for gifting her with this energy and passion and zeal to not only pursue You, Lord, but to pursue Your ways and walk in Your ways and apply Your wisdom and the fruit of spirit is so abundant in her life, Lord. [00:52:52]
I just pray for him right now. I don't know his name, but you do, God. I pray that You would bring sobriety right now. And I pray that you would do a mighty supernatural work. I pray that you would gently and tenderly care for all of the hearts involved, all four of their daughters, and for him and for Jenny, and that you would do something radical.
We know that our stories are all for your glory anyway, Lord, but I just pray redemption and restoration and healing and that he would turn toward you and your voice would become louder. And even that the demons would be away from him, the voices that are or the spirit that's trying to bring him down and tempt him and trying to overcome him, Lord. We know that you are stronger. You are greater. You are more powerful. You are amazing. You're the only one that can do this work. So collectively, we all come together, we beg You, Lord Jesus, to do a mighty work. [00:53:53]
I pray that when you turn his heart to you, Lord, that he would then love you. You would gift him with that ability to love you and then also to love and pursue with that passion and protection for his girls. We pray this all in Jesus' name. Amen.
Jenny Boyett: Amen. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, thank you for just being so vulnerable, letting us into this story, and giving us so much encouragement just to continue seeking Jesus. You're just amazing, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Well, it's all God, let me tell you. Because if it was me, I'd be in a fetal position in my room and I've been there the last eight years. So Jesus can sustain us. And it's true. If you can lean into him, it is so true.
Laura Dugger: Amen. As a fellow yellow, we can't end here. We're going to lighten it up. [00:54:54] So my last question for you today, you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Jenny Boyett: It's going to go a little heavy again, but what I would say is don't ever stop fighting for your spouse. Even though my husband and I are now divorced, I am still praying for him and fighting as much as I can for him to be the best version of himself and the best dad. And that means dying to myself a lot.
So I would say any wife that's out there that is just ready to give up and is frustrated, just fight, fight, fight, because the enemy wants nothing more than to tear families apart. The grass is not greener. I'm telling you, it's hard on both sides. I'm not saying hang on forever, but I'm saying do whatever you can do and use your influence for good. That's what we can do. So we can always fight for each other instead of against each other. [00:56:03]
Laura Dugger: That's a good, good word. You are just such a joy to spend time with. I just want to echo it one more time that so much fruit of the Spirit is evident in your life and in this conversation. So thank you for being my guest, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Oh, thank you. I hope to see you again.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:57:07] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:58:13]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:59:15]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 06, 2024
Monday May 06, 2024
*DISCLAIMER: This episode contains thematic material and is not intended for young ears.
233. Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 37:23 (NLT) "The Lord directs the steps of the godly. He delights in every detail of their lives."
Topics We Cover:
-
Chaotic Childhood
-
Meeting Josh and Surrendering to God
-
God's Personal Way to Reveal Loving Reminders to Her
Tiffany Noel had a chaotic childhood experience filled with loss and abuse. Tiffany's life speaks of the goodness of God and how He continually reveals Himself in intimate ways despite being the Creator of the Universe. Tiffany studied at Bradley University getting her undergraduate degree in Psychology and her Masters in Human Development Counseling. She combines her experience in the "hard knocks of life" with her education to relate to and encourage other people who have survived trauma. Most importantly, Tiffany uses her faith in God to point people to the ultimate hope found in Jesus Christ. Tiffany and her family are active members at Summit Point Church in East Peoria, IL.
Tiffany currently works as a Psychotherapist at a group practice in Morton, IL called Genesis Counseling. Tiffany has served in this calling for the past few years. Prior to working at Genesis Counseling, Tiffany worked at OSF Adult Behavioral Health for ten years. She also has direct work experience with the homeless and geriatric populations. Tiffany has a heart for people who feel unseen, unheard and unloved. Tiffany mixes humor, tough love and Biblical truth to provide a safe space for her clients to rest, grow and heal. Tiffany resides in Morton, IL with her husband Josh, their two children, Lily and Oliver, and their two rambunctious dogs, Scooby and Daphne.
Book an appointment with Tiffany by emailing tiffanyn.genesis@gmail.com
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Tiffany Noel is my guest today, and we met through our mutual friend, Julie Roth. Because of Tiffany's effervescent personality, humor, and transparency, I considered her an instant friend that first time we met for coffee. I was so grateful she opened up to tell me more about her life experience, and soon after that initial meeting, I invited her to be a guest on the podcast. [00:01:18]
She's now going to share her redemption story with us. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Tiffany.
Tiffany Noel: Thank you, Laura. Happy to be here.
Laura Dugger: So glad to have you join. Will you begin by taking us back and tell us a bit about your childhood?
Tiffany Noel: Of course. Yes. I actually grew up in a small town of Chillicothe, Illinois. In my early years, I was raised in a Pentecostal church. Mom was a believer, took us every Sunday, every Wednesday. But my dad did not attend church. And I remember that was part of our childhood was praying for Dad's salvation. And I remember one time him losing his coat and keys, and we prayed that they would be found. It was like three months later, they were found. I honestly can't even remember where, but it just stuck in my mind that God answers prayers from a very young age.
Mom was a stay-at-home mom. Dad worked outside of the home. Unfortunately, my dad was an alcoholic. [00:02:20] So if he wasn't working, he was usually either drinking or sleeping to recover from a hangover.
The rare occasions that he was present, I do remember him being very silly, very funny. He would make Donald Duck voices, and he was just kind of goofy and mischievous.
Outside of my dad's addiction, my childhood for the first eight years was pretty typical. It was just a lot of sleepovers with cousins and best friends and visits to Grandma's house, camping, holiday celebrations. We went to a lot of garage sales.
However, things quickly turned in the year when I was eight, and it's one sleepover that definitely will be forever etched into my mind. At that sleepover, it was my older sister who's 18 months older, and we would always switch kids. So the oldest daughter in my friend's family went with my sister and the younger one I stayed with at her house.
We were actually just playing, putting together a puzzle and I remember hearing, "Your dad's going to die tonight." [00:03:24] And I, being raised Pentecostal, was very aware of the enemy. And I was like, "I rebuke you, devil, in the name of Jesus." I immediately said that. Unfortunately, the same exact thought popped back into my mind again in a different voice and out of my own thought. And it just said, "Your dad's going to die tonight. Your mom's going to call, and they're going to say they're taking your dad to the hospital, and he isn't going to make it."
Before that sentence even ended, I heard my friend's mom pick up the phone that rang and said they were dropping my sister and her friend back home, because my dad was being rushed to the hospital. He didn't make it, but we didn't actually know that until later.
Our friend's mom had put us to bed at their house. I didn't fall asleep. Felt like I had this information that no one else had. But later, my mom and pastors picked us up and took us home, and told us the news that my dad didn't make it. For quite a while, I honestly was in a lot of denial. Although my dad didn't travel for work, I was convinced that he was on a business trip, and that's kind of how I went along with my life. [00:04:31]
From that point forward, we kind of just lived with a spirit of fear in our house. I just remember my mom would sleep on the couch every night. We never went back to our bedrooms. She slept on the couch, and we'd sleep on the floor next to her.
I remember in my adult years talking to Mom about that, and she said that she was just very scared that my dad's, quote, bar friends would come and hurt us somehow. She even said she realized how unrealistic that was because they were such nice people. But it was just the way the enemy was making her very afraid.
Fast forward, it wasn't even a year later when my mom met what she thought was her knight in shining armor at a revival at church. She was very afraid that she couldn't support us kids, me and my sister. She didn't have an education, and she really thought she needed a man to be able to provide for us. [00:05:33]
So when she met this man, it was very quickly after they got married that we realized he was very much a wolf in sheep's clothing. Specifically, he definitely treated my sister and I like slaves. We were required to do all the chores inside and outside the house. These weren't like typical childhood chores. It would be like pulling weeds until our fingers bled, cleaning the garage that was already cleaned, that we had just cleaned. Now looking back, it was all about control for him and manipulation.
He would tell us we could go to a slumber party if we cleaned our room, and we would meticulously clean our room. Then he'd come up and run his hand over the shelf and just knock everything off and say it was not clean and the bed wasn't made crisp enough.
Other types of manipulation and emotional abuse would include, he was a hunter and he would put dead deer carcasses and hang them up in the garage and then ask us to go out and get something, unbeknownst to us, the deer was hanging, dripping blood, and just obviously startle and scare us. [00:06:39]
He would force us to take care of our animals. I had pet rabbits and several dogs, cats. But basically, as soon as we started to bond with them, he would take them away. I was actually forced to, can't make this stuff up, but forced to eat my pet rabbit and later informed by my mom that he would drown our kittens. He sold, I'll never forget, Buffy, my favorite dog, just because, according to my mom, he said we were getting too attached, which is what you're kind of supposed to do as a family pet.
Then, unfortunately, his controlling and emotional abuse escalated to sexual abuse as I aged. Time and time again, he would use pepper spray, spray into the bathroom so that me and my sister would come out naked. He would force us to, well, force me to rub his feet until one day it became more than that. I would often go to bed crying, just immense feeling of shame for what was happening. [00:07:40]
Other instances of just control that I can remember is he'd hold me down and tickle me until I had to go to the bathroom and I'd pee myself. I mean, I was a teenager, so it was very humiliating. And then on numerous occasions, I would fall asleep on the couch and wake up to him touching me.
When my Mom and him divorced, we actually found a hole in the bathroom door that looked directly into the bathtub. So the man that was supposed to protect and provide for us completely betrayed us. He also spent all of our Social Security money for my Dad that was supposed to pay for like braces and college and just daily expenses.
He opened a pet store, bought a really expensive car, just was very frivolous with our money, and meantime, didn't hold a job for longer than a few months at a time.
So after years of abuse, I finally told my mom that the sexual abuse was going on. Unfortunately, at first, my mom didn't believe me. I understand now, I really do. She was just trying to survive. [00:08:41] But at the time, it was very hard that someone was supposed to protect you and love you didn't believe you.
I couldn't take it anymore, I ran away to my grandmother's house. And grandma was sort of a safe haven, a place that I got a little taste of childhood. My mom would beg me to come home and I would refuse. She said that one night her and my stepdad got into a big argument and my mom brought up the allegations, and he said, quote, "Tiffany wanted it." And that was when my mom knew I was telling the truth and she was married to a predator.
She immediately kicked him out and shortly after I came back home. However, unfortunately, the guilt and shame my mom and I both carried led us both to really backslide from our faith. So after losing my father, and then experiencing that hypocrisy of the Christians in my life, I started to seek out worldly comforts.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing. [00:09:43] It's not an easy story to hear. Obviously not an easy life to live at that time. And understandable how everything felt chaotic, even your faith at that time. Eventually, you met a man who you would later get engaged to. Will you pick your story back up there?
Tiffany Noel: Yes, of course. So after all of that took place, and like I said, I went to the world for comfort. Specifically, I kind of got wrapped into drinking a lot of alcohol to basically just numb my thoughts and feelings, experimented a little bit with drugs, had some relationships with men, just seeking to be validated to get attention.
And in all honesty, I would always say I would never get married, never be in a relationship, I thought. I used to literally say that all men would either abandon me or they were perverts. [00:10:42] That was kind of what my mind frame was.
So when I met Josh at a mutual place of employment in 1998, I actually just graduated from high school and was working just as a telemarketer and going to college full time. He was working there as a second job. I just started to notice him, and he was just a little different than the men I had known before.
We ultimately started dating in 1999 after he invited me to his low-pitch softball games. Those were some fun times. But we both met during a time where we'd both gone completely away from our Christian upbringing. We were both living a very selfish life of comfort, pleasure.
However, when one of our party friends started going to church, we both kind of noticed a difference in her. We really specifically noticed a peace and a contentment in her that wasn't there prior to her surrendering her life to Christ. [00:11:42] And I wanted what she had.
So after she invited us to church, I ended up trying the church out and asked Josh if he'd come along and he said, of course. We both started attending services and got involved. Then at that point, we both rededicated our lives to Christ and fully surrendered our whole life to him.
We actually, just because I think it's noteworthy, so other people know they can do it too. After we were together, I want to say close to two years of having sex outside of marriage, when we decided to rededicate our lives to Christ, we actually stopped having sex and lived together for convenience. I was going to Bradley, he lived close, but we did not have sex for a solid year before we got married.
So I think that's important just because I think so often, you know, when we fall into sin, we think we were kind of trapped in it instead of realizing that it's never too late to ask God for strength and self-control to turn your life around. [00:12:44] So that's what we did.
We've been actually together now for 18 years in October. So we were able to really stick it out. And he was able to prove to me that all men aren't what I thought they were.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Grace Catering Company in North Peoria offers a rotating menu of scrumptious meals for you to take home and pop in your own oven. With family-friendly options like lasagna, bacon-wrapped meatloaves, chicken Alfredo pasta, breakfast burritos, and creamy garlic chicken breasts, your homemade dinner will be on the table in no time.
They also offer healthier and lighter options, as well as some gluten-free and keto-friendly choices. The meals are packaged in a variety of sizes, which makes it perfect for individuals or couples, or they have portions large enough to feed the entire family. [00:13:46]
Their menu is on a six-week rotation. You can stop by for a grab-and-go lunch with their signature sandwiches, salads, soups, or quinoa bowls, depending on the season. I also recommend you top off your meal with one of their sweet treats, such as their popular scotch-a-roos, iced sugar or chocolate chip cookies, or their cookie of the month.
The founder and owner, Renee Endress, has also created my all-time favorite cookbook. My grandparents actually gave this to me as a gift when I was newlywed, and it has been put to great use for the past decade and a half. The recipes are easy and approachable, and the feedback from our family and from guests we've hosted in our home has always been positive when the meal came from Renee.
When I've gifted this cookbook to friends, they will commonly remark how these are also the most delicious desserts they've ever tasted. [00:14:44] Our extended family also loves to use the Take N' Bake options on Sunday afternoons, which allows us to enjoy a delectable meal while still getting to enjoy a true [scabba?].
Grace Catering Company is located just off of Alta Lane in North Peoria. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible to hear how God was just starting to plant seeds, beginning to redeem your view of men and your experience with Josh. So at this point, you're engaged, can you catch us up to that part of the story?
Tiffany Noel: Yes. Actually, at the time I was in school, grad school, and so Josh and I had quite a long dating and engagement life. We were actually engaged in 2002 and married in 2005. My family actually always would tease me and say that they loved Josh more than they loved me. [00:15:46] He fit right into our family, kind of just... My mom always said it would take a special man to marry Tiffany, and he was the one that was the special man.
So he continued to just work in our life, and we ended up just going through a myriad of different heartaches and stressors that kept us both continually being sanctified by Christ and surrendering to Him again and again.
We endured a lot of heartache, but nothing really could compare to the sudden loss of my mom in August of 2018. I distinctly remember driving a few months prior to what had happened, and I was on my way to work and just praying as I often did. It was only like a 15-minute drive. It was kind of just the way I started my morning. And during my prayer time, the word "change" came into my mind, followed by the words "trust me".[00:16:47]
I cried and told God, "I promise to trust you." And in all honesty, I thought, you know, a third child, a job change that I never in a million years would have guessed what He was actually preparing me for. I realized it was sort of time to put my actions where my mouth was and trust that God is good and His timing is perfect.
Because my younger sister, Caitlin, I didn't mention her earlier, that was really the good part of my mom being married to my stepfather is that she had a child with him. Her name's Caitlin, and she's my younger sister by 10 years. She, my older sister, Sonny, and I have had a really close bond with all three of us and my mom.
Caitlin actually was due to get married in 2018 and my mom had called me that morning. I was on my way to get my son's first year photo shoot done. [00:17:51] That was the biggest stressor in my life at that point was, "Will my 1-year-old smile." You know, it was all I really was concerned about, thinking about.
My mom called, and my friend, actually the friend that started going to church, same friend, Sarah, was in the car with me. And we joked and laughed with Mom and just said goodbye and never thinking that would be our last conversation.
Mom was actually out shopping for shoes. It was a Thursday, and Caitlin's wedding was on a Saturday. She was out shopping for shoes to wear to the wedding, and she ended up suffering a massive stroke. She was in the parking lot of a department store, and someone called 911 and rushed her. They ended up sending an ambulance and rushing her to the hospital.
My sister got the call, and then she called me and just said that we needed to go to the hospital. My older sister and younger sister were actually ironing something for the wedding. They were ironing tablecloths or something. [00:18:53] So we got the call. Sarah stayed with my kids. Luckily, she was there. It was all a timing thing.
We all went to be with my mom in the ER. Basically, we had to make some really tough decisions, but we all knew that my mom would not want to live without quality of life. They said they could do a surgery, but they pretty much guaranteed that she would likely be a vegetable. And we knew Mom wouldn't want to live that way.
We'd actually all been praying for Mom to be free from her own addiction to alcohol. And we felt like, you know, sometimes God answers our prayers differently than we think, but we knew that this might be the freedom that He was intending for her.
So while we didn't understand God's timing of allowing this to happen two days before my sister's wedding, we knew that Mom's time to be born was literally written in the destiny way before my sister chose her wedding date, you know, to believe that there is a time to be born and time to die and that all of our days were written before we were even born. [00:20:06]
So God started giving us signs, though, that very night in the hospital and chose to give us more signs at my sister's wedding that my mom was safe and he was indeed very good.
Specifically, the first thing that happened was my mom had a breathing tube in, and after a conversation with the doctor, we had agreed to have it removed. My sister didn't feel comfortable with being in the room, but I couldn't bear the idea of my mom being there and could pass without anybody with her. So I chose to stay.
During the few minutes that the doctors and everybody left the room that I was alone with my mom, I remember just sobbing and holding your hand and singing the lyrics to Amazing Grace. I hadn't thought about this song or sang this song in a long time, and I can't sing, by the way. It wasn't beautiful, but it was just what was on my heart and mind.
The next morning, my little sister actually sent a text saying she knew that everything was going to be okay because in the shower that morning, she started singing the lyrics to the song Amazing Grace. [00:21:09] And she literally quoted in a text saying, "I haven't thought about that song in forever." I just quickly texted her back and revealed that that was the song that I had sang to Mom when they were taking out her breathing tube. And just gave us all confirmation that God heard us, saw our grief.
We felt like we could go forward with the wedding. That was one of our big things is like, should she still have her wedding? Everything was paid for. Everything was planned. But we all felt like, Should you have a wedding when you're in that state? But we really felt like that was kind of God's permission. I don't know if permission is the right word, but He just gave us that feeling that it was okay.
My mom loved frogs and she loved hummingbirds. So at the wedding, when all of us girls were down in the basement of my sister's mother-in-law's home, there was a window well, and we were all getting ready, and this big toad jumped into the window well and was like watching us. [00:22:18] And then at the same time upstairs, the guys were getting ready and there was a hummingbird pecking out the window.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think my mom came back as a frog or a hummingbird. I mean, make this clear. But I do think that we serve a really awesome God who cares. He literally cares that we were hurting. He wanted us to know that Mom was with Him.
We had set up a little memorial chair with a picture of Mom and just a saying and there was a butterfly that sat there the entire ceremony. My brother-in-law even tried to touch it, but the butterfly didn't move. Like it just sat there. It's like those things that were continually to happen were just to... They're more than coincidences.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that has brought me to tears so many times already in our conversation. But just how incredible at the same moment that we don't know everything about heaven, but that she was... it seems her presence was in both places at the same time. [00:23:21] That that really is supernatural.
And how God delighted in every detail of your lives to give you peace in a very personal way. And God began doing something else very personal to reveal loving reminders to you. So, Tiffany, will you share that with us now?
Tiffany Noel: Absolutely. It still just sometimes just catches me and gives me awe of the way He works. But shortly after my mom passed away, my sisters and I really felt strongly that we wanted to do something to memorialize Mom. Just remember her.
My younger sister, Caitlin, had already had like two or three tattoos. But Sonia and I were always like, "No way, we would never do that. We never wanted to be in pain." Like we wouldn't pay to be in pain, that kind of thing.
I walked into her house one day and she looked at me and she goes, "I'm going to say something crazy and you're not going to believe this." And before she even said it, I said, "You want to get a tattoo?" And she was like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Yeah, me too." [00:24:26] And we all had the exact same idea. So it's right here on my wrist and it's a hummingbird. It has the word "free" because mom's free from her addiction.
But when we took the idea to the tattoo artist, after she started to draw it, she added this little heart right at the hummingbird's beak. And didn't think much of it. But kind of from that point forward, I started recognizing that I was seeing hearts a lot more often. And it honestly took me a while to be like, I'm seeing hearts more often. Am I just making this up in my head? I really was like, Okay.
So we saw them so often, and I say "we", me and my kiddos, that they would call them Gigi hearts. Lily was only three and Ollie wasn't quite one when mom passed. But Lily is a special little soul and she has a really good memory. Her and my Mom had a very special relationship.
And so anytime we would see the hearts, Lily and Ollie, and they still to this day will be like, "Mom, a Gigi heart," and kind of take me to whatever they found. [00:25:34]
But what I recognize is that grief, it comes in waves is what I always talk about. One minute you're completely fine, you're living life and you're like, I got this. You know, I'm going to see my mom in eternity. And then the next minute, a smell, a song, a place, it just smacks you right off your feet. It just hits you.
So those moments would happen, and when they would happen, I started to be more intentional and specific in asking for God to send me a heart. One incident I can truly remember is we were at a little family vacation at Indiana Dunes Beach, just for like a weekend or a couple-day getaway, and my daughter and I were both just kind of feeling down at the same time. We were having one of those we miss Gigi days.
So my daughter being only three was like, "Well, mom, let's ask God for a heart." [00:26:35] Her faith still just like... you know, I'd say like faith like a child still blows my mind away. But she literally closed her eyes, we were in the water, and she prayed, "Jesus, tell Gigi, we miss her. We love her. We wish she was here." And then she was just like, with faith, "Just send us a heart. Send us a heart-shaped rock." And it wasn't like, can you, will you? It was like, "Send us one." That was convicting to me. She believed it would happen. There was no doubt in her mind.
Within seconds, we looked down and we both saw this reddish color heart-shaped rock. We picked it up and her and I both were sensitive little souls, we both burst into tears. It just has been sort of constant since then. Constant as in it never stops, but it's sporadic, you know?
It usually is either when I'm really feeling down and I ask or kind of out of the blue, almost like when God knows that I need it, like I just start to feel sad. [00:27:42] But I just feel like I'm just constantly humbled at how God loves us. He understands our grief and He gives us tokens of love and comfort.
I can't lie. I'll send you pictures. I sent you some that you can even maybe post. But I've seen heart-shaped rocks, shells, fruit, vegetables, acorns, leaves. The other day I was eating sausage and I cut into it and there was a heart in the middle of it. I mean, at this point I just laugh because I'm like, God has such a sense of humor. He's so funny. He just sees us and He cares is what always just blows my mind away that He cares. You know, He's obviously got a lot of other things to do and He cares to provide comfort. I've seen so many different things.
Another one I have, one incident, a bigger one I have to mention because that just sticks out in my mind was when we were in North Carolina. I was having one of those I miss... I always call them "I miss my mommy kind of days". And I just prayed silently. [00:28:47] I was kind of walking on the beach close to the shore and I just told God, I'm like, "I know that I'm selfish. I know that you've proved yourself time and time again, but I need another sign that mom's okay and that she's safe with you."
I was more specific because the Bible does tell us to be specific in our prayers. And so I asked to find a heart-shaped shell. Again, no lie, seconds later, I looked down, and right at the shore was a shell, but it wasn't the shell that was in the shape of a heart, which I thought was even cooler. It was a heart etched in the shell.
The reason I think it's so cool is because so often I'll find something and people be like, Oh, I think you're just seeing a heart or whatever. It's almost like the doubters. And this one was just such a heart in the shell that there was like no way that everyone wasn't seeing the same thing I was.
Then there was another shell that was sort of opened up that I thought truly looked like angel's wings right next to it. [00:29:46] Again, it was just like this reminder that the maker of the universe loves me and you, all of us enough to take the time out to reassure us of this love.
Now it's been almost five years since Mom's been gone and I just keep my eyes out for God's creation etched into the shape of a heart because I'm looking and because I know I'll always find them. And each time I do find one. Over and over, it seems like it revives my weary, doubtful little soul.
Even this morning on my way here to record, I went to a local coffee shop and they had wrote, "You are loved on the top of my coffee." And right after it, it was a heart. And I immediately giggled because I was, you know, preparing and nervous for this. And I was like, okay, "God, thank you."
Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. [00:30:46] Now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
I have been so encouraged by the pictures that you send. I remember hearts in Cheerios and when you cracked open your eggs one time and so many unexpected places. But it's also interesting how many of these are in nature.
If you don't mind, I just want to share a story of how God even let me in on it one day. Mark and I were on Moonlight Beach in Encinitas, California and I was just struck by the beauty of these water-worn rocks in that area. Most of them were the same. They were all smooth and gray and shaped like ovoids. But you came to mind in that moment. [00:31:45] And I asked God if he would be willing to show me a heart for you. Just like you said, seconds later, it was the very next thing I laid my eyes on. My eyes fell on the only heart-shaped rock I encountered that day.
I snapped a picture of the beach and then a picture of the heart stone and sent it to you to remind you in that moment how you are very loved by God and loved by others. I found out then later that day that we were actually allowed to take a few of the stones from the beach. So I went back to search for that heart, but I never found it again. That somehow made the experience feel even more miraculous.
Like you said, He sends you these reminders of His love and presence. I loved in one of our email exchanges when we were leading up to today, you signed off "still finding hearts". [00:32:49] In addition to still finding hearts, what else are you up to these days?
Tiffany Noel: Just have to add in there that I call those God winks. Actually, at one point I started looking into, do other people see hearts? I found out that a lot of people actually do see hearts after a loved one passes. A lot of people, they named them God Winks.
I remember when we had met once, you had told me about a friend who had recently passed. And so I was also praying that you would find a heart. And that's when you sent that, I was like... I still tear up and get goosebumps because I just think he answers our prayers when we ask.
I've been married to Josh for 18 years, like I've said earlier. We have two miracle babies, is what I call them. My daughter, who's named Lily, she's seven, and in the second grade this year and Oliver, who's five, in kindergarten. [00:33:51] Well, obviously all babies are miracles.
I have to add that my two were actually conceived after 10 years of marriage. We had infertility issues. And so we tried some fertility treatments. We became licensed foster parents. And we were told by several experts that we would never be able to conceive naturally. They didn't know that we serve such a great God. I got pregnant after 10 years of marriage. And after that many years of trying, 100% natural.
So they really are my miracle babies. Just because they're miracle babies doesn't mean that they're easy to raise. I wish that was the truth. But it's not. They're very sanctifying. But they're my life, along with my husband. We live in Morton, Illinois. We like the feeling of being in a small town. [00:34:50]
We also have two fur babies. We have Scooby who's 12. He's a Lab Weimaraner. And we have Daphne, who is my newest baby. She is a Golden Retriever and she's a year. And she has rocked my world. I can honestly say I will never have a puppy again. I love her. I'm learning to love her. But she's worse than a toddler because she chews shoes and pees in various places. Yeah, very, very humbling and sanctifying to have a puppy as well.
I actually work as a psychotherapist at a group practice called Genesis Counseling. Prior to Genesis Counseling, I actually worked as a psychotherapist at OSF. I like to work mainly with adults and couples, just struggling with various mental health issues.
Laura Dugger: And you are a fabulous counselor. So if anyone wants to reach out to you for an appointment, where would you direct them? [00:35:56]
Tiffany Noel: If they're actually wanting to schedule an appointment, they could call at (765) 505-6111 and they could either leave a message or Dr. Emma Bucher will directly answer if she's available. If you want to reach me directly with any questions, my email is the best way to reach me. And that's tiffanyn.genesis@gmail.com.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add links in the show notes to make it easy if somebody's driving or can't take notes right now. But Tiffany, you may already be aware, we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Tiffany Noel: My savvy sauce is ask. We serve a God who wants an intimate relationship with us. He knows as humans we'll have doubts and want and need reassurance of His existence in our daily lives. [00:37:01]
I don't believe God is shocked or offended when we ask for tangible signs that He has not left us or forsaken us. One of my all-time favorite scriptures since childhood is found in Matthew. And it states, "Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened."
I truly believe if it's an alignment with God's will He will answer our prayers. There is nothing that's special about me. I see heart symbols in various objects because I ask and then I seek and then I find evidence again and again of the goodness of God.
Laura Dugger: Wow. When you share it with us, it builds up our faith too. You are such an incredibly faithful woman. I have loved your sense of humor and you're hilarious to spend time with. But you are also able to go deep. You're able to be real and transparent. [00:38:03] And in the short time that we've already known each other, I have just experienced so much joy getting to be with you. I'm humbled by even your prayer when we lost Heather. It was about three weeks later that found that heart-shaped rock for you. So God works in miraculous ways. And you've directed us back to that today. So, Tiffany, thank you for being my guest.
Tiffany Noel: You're so welcome. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:39:04]
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:40:05] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:41:08]
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 29, 2024
Monday Apr 29, 2024
232. Stories Series: Testify to Glorify with Richard Gamble
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 96:3 (NIV) "Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous deeds among all peoples."
Richard Gamble is the founder and visionary behind Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer, the world’s largest database of hope stories. Aspiring to make hope visible and renew faith in prayer, Gamble first had the idea for the inspirational structure in 2004 when he was carrying a cross around Leicestershire at Easter to lead people to think about Jesus. He prayed over the idea for ten years until 2014, when he felt a nudge from the Holy Spirit to begin acting upon it.
Gamble has spent many years rallying support for the Eternal Wall, a process which has tested his humility and obedience to follow God’s will. Having successfully garnered hundreds of partnerships who want to see the unique project come to fruition, the iconic monument will be a legacy project, future-proofed to inspire and engage generations, supporting them in their spiritual journey.
A Christian since 1990, Gamble studied at Bible college before working for British Gas. He eventually left the corporate world to make his mark in entrepreneurship, co- founding both a software business and a marketing consultancy. With a love for soccer, he became CEO of Sports Chaplaincy UK, and was former chaplain of Leicester City Football Club (before they were famous and won the Premiership).
Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer
Eternal Wall, Crowd Fundraiser Website
Questions We Discuss:
-
Will you share your childhood story of a near death experience?
-
How did God call you to build the Eternal Wall of Prayer?
-
Will you share three of the stories submitted so far for the Eternal Wall of Prayer?
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
126 Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Prepare to hear miracle after miracle that will leave you changed. Richard Gamble is my guest today, and God has given him a clear and thrilling purpose in his life. I can't wait for you to hear more of his stories and his calling, and to also discover ways you are invited to be an active participant.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Richard.
Richard Gamble: Hey, thank you very much for having me on your show.
Laura Dugger: It is such a pleasure to get to host you today. [00:01:16] Just to get to know you better, I would love to hear your story. So will you start us off with your childhood story of a near-death experience?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, gosh. You've done your research well there, Laura. I think I was about six years old, and I was on holiday with my parents, and they said to go and get my sister who was in the swimming pool. And I leaned over to shout at her, it was tea time, and lost my balance and fell into the pool.
I can remember it really clearly, this sort of weird experience of sort of floating downwards. I wasn't even panicking because I just didn't know how to swim. I'm just going down in the pool, and then a guy in a white suit was walking past, took off his white jacket, dived into the pool, pulled me out, rescued me. [00:02:22] I think he then took me to my parents, and then just disappeared. So it might have been a bloke just happened to be going past in a white suit. I have suspicions that it was an angel.
Laura Dugger: That is so incredible. What a powerful experience, but it makes me wonder, at this time, what was the faith environment like in your home growing up?
Richard Gamble: Oh, no, no faith whatsoever. In fact, even the opposite in that, you know, normally you would christen a child in this country when they're born, but I wasn't christened because there was no faith. So I didn't go to church, didn't have anything like that.
But then when I was 11 years old, I learned that if you put a glass against the wall, you could listen to the conversation next door. So I thought, "Oh, I'll give that a go." [00:03:22] And I overheard my mom saying that she had to go to a hospital for tests for cancer. And even though I had no faith upbringing, I just sat by my bed, put my hands together, and just said, "God, can you look after my mom?" Which He did. But I felt in that moment, the way I describe it, it's sort of like a huge hand around me going, "It's going to be all right." And that was the moment for me as an 11-year-old where I believed that God was alive and wanted to be part of my life.
Laura Dugger: Goodness. At this time, what was that like for your family as well?
Richard Gamble: I didn't really talk about it that much. My mom then had a son that they did decide to christen. I got christened at the age of 14. Fortunately, the vicar didn't try and sort of lift me up and dip me in the baptism pool there. [00:04:25]
But I sort of went on my own exploration, really, Laura. I can remember at that age going to different churches and just seeing religion. I wouldn't have described it like that at the time. But I remember just sitting there and thinking, "This doesn't mean anything."
So I really, on and off, as you do when you're a teenager, sort of went to different places and every time just thought, Oh, not really interested in that. Then when I was 20 years old, I found myself in a hotel — I was on a sort of a university graduate employment scheme - and there were 20 of us debating about whether God existed or not. And I was like, "Yeah, He definitely exists."
One of the 20 there was a Christian and they just invited me to come to church. And I was like, "Yeah, right." [00:05:27] So I went to this church and I'm like, "Wow, this is real. I could tell by the way that people were singing the songs, whether they were interacting, that it really meant something to them.
Then I had this moment where I experienced exactly the same thing that I experienced when I was 11 years old, what I would now describe as the presence of God. So that was the moment for me, I was like, gosh, God is real. He is alive.
Somebody then that night said, "Do you want to come out?" And he took me out to a pub and shared the gospel with me in a pub. And I was like, "Right, what do I do?" That has been a motivating factor for me in my life, that I had an experience with God when I was 11 but I had to wait nine years till somebody shared the gospel with me.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I wonder if that emboldened you to share the gospel with others, because I think of your faith one Easter in particular. [00:06:33] Will you share what you did that day?
Richard Gamble: Yeah. It sounds a bit weird this, Laura, but yeah, I will. I felt that God tell me to carry a cross around my county. It took a bit of persuading to persuade my church leaders that this was a good idea. But I just wanted people to think about Jesus during Easter.
So I walked, I think it was about 80 miles around the county to try and get people to consider the cross instead of... you know, we have the tradition of buying chocolate eggs and all sorts during Easter. I was trying to go, Easter is about Jesus.
I started to pick up ad hoc that there were loads of people that were having conversations about this in their schools and their colleges and in their workplace. [00:07:33] And probably the best one was my father, who again, he's not a Christian, but he was in a governmental meeting. In the middle of this governmental meeting, this lady said, "I saw the weirdest thing today." Said, "I saw this bloke dressed in a suit carrying a cross. What's all that about?" And my dad then said, "Well, that's my son." And then he proceeded to share the gospel with the whole room. A non-believer in a governmental setting is then saying, "This is the gospel. This is what my son believes."
So, for me, that was a real catalyst in my life that said, actually, if we do stuff creative to try and reveal the nature of Christ, it's going to reach a lot of people.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And that seed has continued to bloom. We'll get to that current part of your story, but I just think how incredible that God gave you the grace to be obedient. [00:08:34] Because so many times when He speaks to us, I don't know if this has been your experience too, Richard, but it doesn't make sense in the moment.
It is encouraging to read about Noah building an ark before there's even rain or different things that sound odd in the time, but He shows us, a lot of times, on the other side of obedience what He's doing.
Richard Gamble: Yeah. And of course, Laura, it's a process, isn't it? Because I do remember when I was in my early days of being a Christian, I remember I felt the Holy Spirit say, you know, "Help that lady with her bags." And she was carrying loads of bags. So I said, "Oh, do you want me to help?" And she said, "Yeah." And I helped her. And that was it.
I was expecting her to fall on her knees and say, "What shall I do to be saved or something like that." And she went, "Oh, thank you very much." And that was it. Never saw her again. [00:09:33] I learned from that initial experience the importance of just being obedient to those little nudges. And we don't always know. We don't always see.
My wife and I now, you know, if we feel God's told us to do it, we do it. The danger can often be if you get lost in the detail. But if I do that, what if that happens or what if that happens? We've trained ourselves over the decades, and we've made mistakes as well because we're human, but we've trained ourselves to like, if God gives us the nudge, let's do it. I do believe that even if I've misheard God with the nudge, that He'll love the heart of wanting to be obedient to Him.
Laura Dugger: Yes, I am in complete agreement with you there. You're mentioning your wife. Can you give us a snapshot of your life currently?
Richard Gamble: Yes. So I'm married to Sarah. [00:10:34] We just had our 25th anniversary. We went to Venice, which is beautiful. I've got three, three kids, two boys, one girl. And, yeah, life is life is bumpy at times, but overall, it's good on the journey.
Laura Dugger: Well, and along the journey, when... There's something that I want to draw out. You had just mentioned that God was calling you to show Him in creative ways. You have a current, very creative project that's exciting. And I believe it's approximately 20 years in the making so far. So where did this vision come from to create an eternal wall of answered prayer?
Richard Gamble: So it was while I was on that walk carrying the cross. At the time, I was also being considered for leadership of the church. And I was just praying and I sort of in my heart said to God, "What do you want me to do next?" [00:11:37] And this picture, vision, idea just sort of flashed through my head. I've learned that's one of the ways that God speaks to me, that it's almost like a picture that goes really quick and then you have to grab it to really sort of meditate on it and work out what it is.
But I just felt Him say this idea about building a national landmark, a wall made up of a million bricks where every brick represents an answer prayer. That's really where it was birthed.
So that was 2004. I sort of had 10 years carrying on with life, you know, starting my family and all that that entails and running a software business. And I was sort of thinking about it, talking to people about it, got lots of weird looks every time I mentioned it. But then nine years ago, I just felt the Lord Jesus say to me, Right, green light, time to time to get going. [00:12:39] It's been an incredible adventure. We are incredibly close to achieving this now. We're working towards an opening date of 2026, maybe 2027. And yes, it's been exciting.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: With over 1700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company.
They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. [00:13:43]
In Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park.
Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments.
Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even mini storage units available in some locations.
Leman Property Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.
Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasingatlemanprops.com. [00:14:44] You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. That's Lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.
Laura Dugger: I know I've heard you say before that our enemy can't do anything about the blood of the lamb, but he will try to silence the powerful word of our testimony.
Richard Gamble: Yeah. I was reading that scripture. I've read it many times and I thought, "Gosh, if there's one scripture that the enemy doesn't like, it's this one, because it's sort of like an instruction booklet. Like, here is the way we can get over his schemes.
Of course, if that's true, the first half, He's stuffed on the blood of the lamb. We all know that's a done deal. So what He is going to do is He's going to try and silence the testimony. And I think we are seeing that in increasing measure in the Western world in lots of different ways, some of them subtle ways, political correctness, where it's sort of seeped into the church. [00:15:51]
You know, sometimes you'll hear people go, Well, I know that person's been healed of cancer. But come on, let's not say anything because you don't want to offend the person who hasn't been healed of cancer, which is completely contrary to scripture.
In the UK, particularly, there's the sense of, well, I know God has answered a prayer. But why brag about it? And I'm like, Well, I've got a reason. There's about 200 scriptures that talk about proclaiming the deeds of the Lord and how important it is.
I mean, even this week we've had the advertising standards agency have blocked some of our adverts because we talk about miracles. There is an agenda now to silence the testimony. And that's why as Christians, we've got to stand up and we've got to proclaim the deeds of the Lord. We've got to tell people that Jesus is alive, He's still listening when we pray, and He answers. [00:16:51] He's still active in our world in a very real way. That's the message that we need to get over.
Laura Dugger: Yes and amen. Richard, I really do want to say thank you for fighting against any testimonies being silenced. I'd love to hear more of your journey. So what has the pathway looked like from that initial idea to this current reality?
Richard Gamble: Well, let me be really frank. I don't know what I'm doing. It's the first time I've ever built a national landmark. I'm not a practical guy. I'm not an architect. I'm not an engineer. I'm banned from doing DIY in the house because I've set fire to the bathroom, you know. So I've really had to learn to pray in a deeper way.
And I think that's the privilege of the journey. When you take a dream, the privilege of going on that journey is you actually get to know God in a more intimate way. [00:17:54] To describe what we're doing for your listeners, the idea of this landmark iis that it is a giant infinity loop where it's got a million bricks on it. And people will be able to point their phones at any one of the bricks and the phone will light up and it will tell them the testimony, a time where somebody has prayed and found hope in Jesus's answer.
So part of the adventure has been trying to raise the money to just get the design. Then we have to get the planning. Then once we've got the planning, we have to build within a certain time frame to secure the planning.
Then, of course, you know, we are building something similar size to the Statue of Liberty, to give you an idea of scale. You know, it costs a lot of money. And then we have to raise the funds. And so every step of the way, there are times when myself and my team and the volunteers are like, "This is just beyond us. [00:19:01] This is utterly impossible."
One of the lessons, if I might share, Laura, is I love the scripture where... it's Elijah, isn't it, who pours the water on the wood? And what I've learned from that story is when he's asking God for fire to come down from heaven to light the wood and then he pours water on it. And what I've learned from that is if you're faced with a situation that's impossible, impossible has no gradients. It's impossible for God to set fire to the wood unless God does it. So pouring water on it is sort of irrelevant.
That's why, for us, there's been a number of times where we've been faced with impossible situations. To the world's eyes, those impossible situations have just got worse. I mean, I've been trying to raise money through a pandemic, for example. [00:20:00] And yet, for me, I'm like, well, it was always impossible anyway. I just need God to move. Nothing's changed. And that has been a real sort of fundamental for us in our approach.
Laura Dugger: You're reminding me of something I read this morning. I was rereading from a book, Rhythms of Renewal by Rebekah Lyons. She and her husband, Gabe, have actually been previous guests on the podcast. So I will link to their episode. But one quote she says is, "The call and assignment of God is never possible without God." And that's what I hear you saying.
Richard Gamble: Nice. Yeah, that's really good. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, why do it? Man, we have so many impossibilities on this. But the thrill is when you overcome them and you go, Wow, God, look what you've done. Look what you've done.
One interesting part of the journey is just seeing how people react and seeing people going, you're never going to do this, you're never going to do this. And then they see God do something. [00:21:09]
Let me give you an example of a story. So we needed to find the land. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? If you want to build a national landmark, you need to build it on something. I went to Bethel Church in Redding, California. Don't know if you're familiar with that, but we went there for a conference, my wife and I and we just thought, "We need to pray for land." Nobody knew who we were or what we were doing.
And then this lady came up to us and she said, "I've got a word from God for you." And the word was, "God wants you to know He's got some heavenly land prepared for you." Now, that to me is such a thrill that I've gone one side of the planet and somebody has no understanding what I'm doing or what I'm praying for, has then basically said, "Hey, God wants you to know," which is a confirmation.
So I then tell my team back in the UK, this is what God has said, and one of my team says, "Well, if God's told us He's got some land, I'm going to ask Him where it is." [00:22:11] So this team member went away and prayed and I just got an email from her with a Google map circling this map saying, "Hey, this is the land that God's going to give us." Which was like, Okay.
And then I looked at the land and the person who owned that land had emailed me just a few days before. Which, you know, what are the chances? Then I meet with this person, I share my heart on this desire to proclaim the deeds of the Lord across the nations by building a landmark. And at the end of the meeting, I told him that God had given me this vision in 2004 and then he tells me that God had given him the same vision in 2003. I mean, staggering.
But I still didn't tell him about this woman circling the land because I didn't want to emotionally or spiritually sort of manipulate the situation. [00:23:14] So he said he'd go away and pray about it, about how he could help, came back and said, "Oh, we've decided to give you some land." But it wasn't the piece that was circled. And I was like, "You know what? That's good enough for me. I'll take it."
The lady who circled the land was going, "This is not the right one. This is not the right one." I'm like, "He's just given me a piece of land worth a million pounds. I think we'll just... Thank you, Jesus." But after six months, he phoned me up, really awkward conversation, said, "I'm really sorry. I can't give you that land anymore." And then he gave me another piece of land. Still not the one.
Six months later, get another phone call from him saying, "I'm embarrassed, but I can't give you that land either." And I spent the night praying. Then his father said, "Look, loads of people tell me, 'Oh, God's told me to do this. God's told me to do that," he said. "But when I heard Richard's story, I said, "I believe him". And I don't want to be the man who had the opportunity to give him land and passed it by. So give him the best piece of land." [00:24:23]
So he paid an architect to look at all the land that they owned in the country and the architect came back with the piece that the woman had circled in the email to me. How amazing is that?
Laura Dugger: I have goosebumps everywhere hearing that. Incredible.
Richard Gamble: And I think when you've got a story like that, Laura, and we have got loads of them. I mean, literally loads of them. What it does is when you face those impossibles, I recalibrate my mind. I've had to do that even in the past couple of weeks where I've had a situation, I'm like, "Jesus, that is beyond me." But then I go, "Wait a second. Before I start to get fear about what that fact means, I'm going to remind myself of the things that God has done on this project so far. The things that God has said to me, the impossibles that have been overcome, and remind myself that God is not one who changes His mind." [00:25:24] And that then gives you the strength and the faith to keep pressing on.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Then when you share those stories, it is so faith-building for each of us. My takeaway from that is the reminder that honestly, we are often trying to teach our four young daughters and God is still trying to teach me this. It is "trust and obey".
Richard Gamble: Yeah. I was listening to a song this morning, I think of Lauren Daigle, about even when the answers aren't there, I'm still going to choose to trust in You. For all of my team, that's been the journey.
Can I share a fun story with you that God did for us?
Laura Dugger: Please do.
Richard Gamble: So we had earlier this year a ceremony on the land to bless the land and just to pray God's blessing and to consecrate the land for all that He's going to do on it over the next hundred years or so. [00:26:27] And we had about 300 different church leaders from across the UK and a broad spectrum.
One of my team was pulling together the agenda for the day and I said, "Look, can we not do anything weird?" I mean, I come from a charismatic background, but I'm just sensitive to other streams of the Christian faith. And I said, "Let's not do anything weird." So she sent me the agenda and in the middle of it... And I don't know if you've heard of this. I haven't before. But it said "blowing the shofar horn". Have you heard of a shofar?
Laura Dugger: I have not.
Richard Gamble: No, it's a Jewish horn that's supposed to cleanse the land. And I was like, "What are you doing?" I said nothing weird. And she was like, "Yeah, but I've talked to the team and we really believe this is what God wants us to do." And I was like, "Okay, all right."
So two weeks later, they still haven't found the shofar and they can't even find somebody to blow the shofar. [00:27:30] And I'm just going, "Guys, we've got too much to do. We've got this big event to organize. Let's just blow a trumpet. It doesn't really matter." And they were like, "No, no, no. We really believe that God wants us to blow the shofar." And I said, "Well, you've got a day to sort it. Otherwise, we're going to Plan B and blowing the trumpet."
So they went off to pray and they came back to the office and one of the office juniors said, "I've just received this weird email." And the email basically said, "I believe that God has called me to blow a shofar across the United Kingdom and I wonder whether you'd give me permission to blow it on the land." I mean, it's just amazing.
And the thing that really challenged me, Laura, I was a bit cross with God about it because I was like, "You know, Jesus, there's quite a lot of things that I'm praying to you about at the moment and blowing a shofar is not really in my top 50." [00:28:32] But interestingly, it was for God. It was more of a priority.
I think if you want to align yourselves with God, you have to align yourself with His priorities on the journey. And so, that for me was quite a humbling and quite an interesting thing to go, How? Why is that more important to you than the money, for example? And of course, the answer is because in God's economy, the money's already sorted. So, yeah, there we go.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I love these stories so much. I'm just wondering, how do you remember all of these? Are you also documenting this along the way?
Richard Gamble: Yeah. So we've got the BBC doing an audio documentary. They've actually released half of it, which I can give you the link for, actually, Laura. And then I've also got somebody doing a film documentary. We want to try and capture the stories because they're just so crazy, some of them. [00:29:36] It's not easy working on this project but you have moments where the team are just blown away and then other moments where people go, "Yeah, that's how it works. That's how God seems to be working on this project.
We've had real blessings in terms of people that when we've had a real need for the right person, that God has provided that right person just at the right time.
So an example would be when we were getting our planning permission, I think you call it zoning in America, I went to a church meeting and I said, "Hey, I've been praying this morning and I really need to find somebody to help me with planning." And it just so happened that in that particular congregation where I was on that day was one of the leading planning barristers for faith projects in the United Kingdom who then proceeded to give us his services for free. [00:30:37] You know, we've just got a catalog of those. And it just is so faith-building.
Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
As you're sharing these stories, it makes me think people have already submitted their stories and their answered prayers to you, even though this project is not complete yet. Could you share maybe three of the stories that have been submitted so far for the eternal wall of prayer?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, happy to. I mean, you get different favorites at different times. But probably a good way to do it is to share with you the range. We get a lot of stories where God moves in the suddenly. [00:31:41] We've had one single mom who hadn't got any food for her kids. You know, she wasn't massively developed, very young in her faith. So she just opened up the Lord's Prayer and started reading through that: Give us this day our daily bread. And as she said bread, the doorbell went and there's a guy from the supermarket saying, you know, that the order has just been canceled next door. Do you want this food for free? And there's a loaf of bread and enough food for her family for a week.
Obviously, we love it when God speaks like that. But of course, there are times when we've got to be more patient. I've got this story, which is from America. We've had a lot of people from the States giving us stories, which is fantastic. I just read a bit of it. She spent years praying for her dad's salvation. Ten days before he passed away after a short battle with cancer, I shared Christ with him. We had conversations about God that seemed to take a lifetime to have. [00:32:49] But in that moment, God gave me the words and I'll be grateful forever. My dad then asked me if it was too late for him to come to know Jesus and my heart leapt out my chest as I assured him it was never too late. And I led him in a prayer of salvation.
So I love that one because, you know, that's probably a prayer that's been going on for decades. You know, sometimes those are the ones that we forget, but just as powerful. You know, all of this is in God's timing.
Another one is one of my favorites is through COVID where this missionary, this young lady felt called to go to Nicaragua. And she arrived in Nicaragua and then it was the pandemic hit and she's suddenly in a lockdown. You can imagine all the prayers that she must have had and believing that God wanted her to go to Nicaragua. [00:33:48] And then all of a sudden she's there, but she can't see anybody. Crazy.
She then starts sort of putting feelers out saying, "Can I help anybody?" And she gets this email from this guy saying, from America who basically raised the money to send some equipment to Nicaragua three years ago. And they'd lost the shipping container. So he was like, you know, "If you can try and find the shipping container, that'd be really cool."
So she managed to get down to customs and over a matter of days basically ended up finding the shipping container, opened it up and it was full of PPE equipment and were able to supply eight hospitals in Nicaragua with all the equipment they needed to handle the pandemic.
What I love about that story is I can imagine that guy raising all that money and then just feeling utterly bereft when they've lost the shipping container. [00:34:58] But the reality is. It was all in the timing of God. And that shipping container was found on the right day in the right moment to supply all those hospitals. I love the way that God often answers our prayers, not in the way we expect, rarely in the timing we expect. And I think that's a good example.
Laura Dugger: Incredible. Richard, I'm also curious, what is your process for finding and collecting these stories of answered prayer from around the world?
Richard Gamble: Well, we were asking the church to come and be a part of it. It's really that simple. If you're a Christian, God has definitely answered one prayer for you, which is his salvation. But we want to get a whole range of stories. We're trying to build this million-plus database of stories of answered prayer. [00:35:54] So we're asking people to go to the website, which is EternalWall.us and just share what has God done in your life.
Here's the beauty of this. Deuteronomy 4:9 says, "Don't forget what your eyes have seen. Don't let it fade from your heart and your memory, and make sure you tell what God has done to your children and your children's children." Well, this is a way that we can do that, because as soon as you share your story, that story will be put in a national archive and that story is going to be shared all over the world long after we've left the planet.
Because what people will be able to do... let's say somebody in North Carolina, they hear about the Eternal Wall, and they go, "Huh, I wonder if there are any stories from North Carolina on there." And they type in and they'll be able to see all the people from that state that are sent through their stories of answered prayer. [00:36:58]
Or they may have a diagnosis. Maybe they've got ankylosing spondylitis and they've just been to a doctor. I say that because that happened in my life where I was diagnosed with an incurable disease. And they'll come across my story and thousands of other people's stories where they've had a diagnosis, but the God who can overcame and they were healed.
So we want this to be a legacy for all Christians across the world that you can share your story, a long after you've left this planet, people will still be reading your story and they'll be finding and discovering the God who answers. I don't think there's any better use of your time than we can do, to be honest.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So grateful. Thank you, Lord, for your healing story. That is a way that we can take a next step. [00:37:57] Is there any other way we could come alongside and participate?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, absolutely. So we need prayer. This project is absolutely built on prayer. We've got a team of people praying all the time. I think I've got 100 people this month fasting and praying for breakthroughs for us, as an example.
We need volunteers to help us find stories of answer prayer. There are loads on social media, for example. It's just a case of people digging them out or finding them or even reading historical books, because we're not only sharing the stories from this generation. But we're sharing them, you know, from 8,500 and onwards. And some of the things that we're digging up are incredible. But we need volunteers to do that.
We need donations as ever with all these things. I'm thrilled to tell you, Laura, that we've raised the money for the monument. [00:38:58] How incredible is that? We just need to raise the money now for the technology and the visitor center. So we need help there.
I'd really encourage your listeners to take some time and share their stories. You may have one story that comes to mind, but I'd really encourage you to try and do 10. Because when you do that, I think you tend to get a deeper level of story.
My one that I'd immediately think of was ankylosing spondylitis. But then when you do 10, you start to go a bit deeper and go, "What has God really done?" And some of the best answer prayers, I think, have to do with character. You know, God has changed my character. I'm a much more patient man than I was when I started this project.
I think of the way that God has helped me in my marriage. So there's a whole range of different stories that we want to share with people who are searching and trying to find the God who answers. [00:40:03] I would really encourage your listeners to help us in that way.
Laura Dugger: Well, again, we would be happy to provide links in the show notes for today's episode where they can find your website and find these next steps. Would you also be willing to share more of your story of healing?
Richard Gamble: Yeah, definitely. It was devastating for me when I had a bit of back pain and then go to a doctor and then he gives me this diagnosis. And I had it for many, many years. I went forward for prayer, Laura, I cannot tell you how many times.
Of course, if you go to a healing meeting, there's always a word of knowledge about somebody with a bad back. I always used to go for it. I was just like, "Okay, maybe today, Lord. Maybe today's the day."
I had it for maybe about 20 years. And then I went to the doctor's and he said, "Look, you know, Mr. Gamble, we can give you the medication to slow this down. [00:41:08] They said, "Your back is like a car in a traffic jam. We can slow it down. But one day that car is going to get to the end of the road and you're going to be stuffed." And I thought, "Huh, okay."
I sort of left that meeting with the doctor quite angry, and I thought, "I'm not going to let the word of an expert overrule the word of God in my life. I'm not going to let him prophesy doom to me." So I changed my prayer and I was like, "Lord, I just pray that you will stop the car. Just stop the car, Lord."
Then I went to this meeting and this guy very differently said, "I'd like to pray for somebody who's got a disease in their spine." And I sprinted. I literally sprinted to the front. I wanted to make sure that I was first to be prayed for. And he said, "Do you mind if I put oil down your back?" And I was like, "No, go for it. Go for anything." [00:42:11] It ruined my shirt, by the way, but it was a price worth paying.
He poured oil down my spine and I just felt heat, just a weird heat going through my body. And I knew I'd been healed. A few weeks later, I went for an MRI scan and the doctor sat down and said, "Well, you're a very lucky boy because this disease has stopped." And then I was able to explain to him that luck was nothing to do with it. That healing must be 15 years ago now and I'm still good. It's not perfect. I still have the ramifications of having that disease in my body for such a time. But I do know that the disease has stopped and I praise and thank God for it.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much because it's called incurable and just points to the miracle of Jesus. I'm going to continue sharing one other quote again from rereading Rhythms of Renewal, where she writes that God is going to offer us, quote, "the grace to fall into rhythms that will fill you with confidence and courage, confirm your calling and give you strength to carry out His purposes." [00:43:29]
Richard, again, it reminds me of your story and what you're doing with this eternal wall of prayer. I'm just assuming that scripture has sustained you throughout this process. So is there any other passage that has been especially meaningful?
Richard Gamble: I mean, there's loads. I spent a Christmas one year just going through the scriptures where it says proclaim the deeds of the Lord. And there's so many. There's so many. I think for me, Psalm 145 just talks about proclaiming the deeds of the Lord to the great assembly. So when we have time to reflect as a team, which we don't have too much, but you just go, We are actually fulfilling scripture. We are actually taking what God is set to do and we're actually doing it. [00:44:29]
And the point of this vision is to proclaim those deeds of the Lord, as it says in Psalm 145, not only to the great assembly, but to the nations. The other one for me is Habakkuk 2:14, where it says, "For the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." And our dream is this. So this is not... it's not a UK landmark that we're building. I don't believe. I believe we're building a globally iconic landmark.
If you think of Christ the Redeemer in Rio de Janeiro, that's globally known. But if you Google it, as many as I know, because we've looked at the numbers, tens of millions of people Google that every year, you just find out about a French guy that built it. [00:45:27]
But when people hear and see the Eternal Wall of Answered Prayer, they're going to Google it and they're going to find a database of a million answer prayers and more. They're going to type this storm of life that they're currently going through and find people who've been in the same situation as them and find that Jesus has answered.
Now, if we do that well in the way that I believe we're going to be doing, then I think we can start to see the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Those are the things that keep us going, that we're playing for big stakes here. And that's why we need the whole church to get on board with this project and tell the nations what Jesus is doing.
Laura Dugger: Let it be so, Lord. Amen. I'll just share one other thing. This was the most important piece that I read this morning. [00:46:31] I've said on the podcast before, it's amazing how the Lord will direct me to certain scripture and then it plays out in the conversation that we get to have that day.
This is from the Amplified version of Acts 20:24 that I want to share with you. It says, " But I do not consider my life as something of value or dear to me, so that I may [with joy] finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify faithfully of the good news of Go's [precious, undeserved] grace [which makes us free of the guilt of sin and grants us eternal life].
Richard Gamble: Love it.
Laura Dugger: It is just a joy to get to talk with you today. Is there anywhere else you would direct us to go after this chat to get to follow along with your journey?
Richard Gamble: Yeah. Good ways to follow the journey is go onto the website. [00:47:32] If you leave your email, we're going to keep you up to date. We've got loads of exciting things that are happening next year. We're going to have to test a mini eternal wall in a wind tunnel, would you believe? You know, all these crazy things that we've got to do to get this built.
But also, you know, you should be able to find us on all social media, YouTube and Facebook in particular. Don't just be a listener today. Get involved, be part of it because you'll be able to tell your children and your grandchildren and their grandchildren about to say that one of their ancestors was part of this amazing project. And for the glory of God, we can tell the nations over the generations how amazing He is. So please be part of it.
Laura Dugger: Love that so much. You may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Richard, what is your savvy sauce? [00:48:34]
Richard Gamble: Mine would be this one. Don't be bound by rules that aren't there. You know, I've learned in life that sometimes people go, yeah, well, that's what we do. And you go, why are we doing that? And they think there's a rule, but there isn't. And I believe that we have a creative Holy Spirit who can lead us and guide us. And if we're in step with Him, we can really break through boundaries. The kingdom of God is forcefully advancing and forceful people lay hold of it. And I believe that's one of the ways is not being bound by rules that aren't there.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Richard, I'm just so grateful for your boldness and your creativity to testify of God's good news and saving grace. Thank you so much for faithfully working on this purposeful vision. And thank you for being my guest today.
Richard Gamble: Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you so much, Laura. [00:49:35]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:50:35] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:51:34] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:52:39] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 22, 2024
Monday Apr 22, 2024
231. Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore
**Transcription Below**
Isaiah 55:12a NKJV "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace;"
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
What was your upbringing like and how did you come to Christ at age 30?
-
What miracles happened along the way to launching Camp Grace?
-
How have you grown to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit vs your own voice or culture or the enemy, etc.?
Dave Pridemore is the founder and Executive Director at Camp Grace where their mission is to transform the lives of urban youth, with grace, through overnight camps. Learn more at the Camp Grace website or read God's miraculous story in Dave's book, Real Vision: Life is Too Short to Miss God's Best.
Dave received his undergraduate and master's degrees from The Ohio State University and then worked for the Bell Telephone system before attending Southwestern Theological Seminary and serving in churches. In 2005 Dave left the church to follow a calling God placed on his life to start an overnight camp for the under-served children of Georgia. To date Camp Grace resides on 300 acres and has a capacity to serve over 3,000 children per summer.
Dave and his wife, Susie live in Cumming Georgia and spend as much time as they can with their 12 beautiful grandchildren.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:59:16] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Today, we are launching a new and exciting Stories series. These will be faith-building true stories that are important to share, because the first part of Revelation 12:11 tells us how to conquer our enemy, Satan. And it says, "And they overcame and conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony." [00:01:16]
So to kick off our Stories series, my guest is Dave Pridemore. He is the founder and executive director at Camp Grace, and he's going to share God's miracle after miracle, from first delivering a vision to Dave in 2002, all the way up to present day.
This chat will encourage you in your own walk with Christ, and Dave's going to inspire you to take your next step forward in whatever dream God has laid on your heart.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dave.
Dave Pridemore: It's good to be with you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Can you just begin by sharing what your upbringing was like and how you came to know Christ at age 30?
Dave Pridemore: Oh, sure. I grew up in a small town in Ohio. Was not a Christian. Parents really didn't go to church. And so just had a great time growing up. Never went on a vacation. Parents didn't have much. Never went to camp myself. [00:02:18] But I just enjoyed growing up in that small town, playing sports. And that's pretty much what I did.
So I qualified in high school for the state gymnastic meet and went to the Ohio State University. And I had never been out of my hometown, and I was about 15. So I got on campus and I thought it was phenomenal. And so I stayed in the dorm. I had a college kid that hosted us, went to the auditorium, was able to go off the diving boards, the gym, the football field. It was amazing.
But the only reason I say that is that one week, the day before I came back to my hometown, I decided, "I want to go here. This place is phenomenal." My parents were steel mill and pottery workers, and I was kind of going to follow the same line. But when I came back, I talked to my high school counselor, she said, "Well, you'll have to change to college prep." [00:03:20] And so I did.
I ended up getting my undergraduate and master's degree from Ohio State. I made the cheerleading squad and was able to travel the United States with the football team. But that one week was a defining week in my entire life. So I can see even now if you can get kids in the right environment, it can do the same thing for them.
So while at Ohio State, I worked for Ohio Bell. After graduation, I stayed with Ohio Bell. It was really a non-growth company. I was in personnel and I placed myself in Atlanta. In 1978, I moved my family to Atlanta.
Laura Dugger: Okay. And at this point still, having a family, being married, traveling the country now, was faith ever mentioned or how did you even come to meet and then follow Jesus?
Dave Pridemore: So God has a sense of humor. [00:04:21] I didn't see much use for church or faith. When I moved to Atlanta, he gave me two neighbors. On my right-hand side was a guy by the name of Dr. Larry Parker, who was the chairman and president of an organization called CBMC, Christian Businessmen's Committee of USA. On the other side was a guy by the name of Bruce Wilkinson. He started Walk Through the Bible Ministries. He wrote many books, Prayer of Jabez, you might be familiar with it.
But these two guys just started loving on me, playing tennis, taking me to Braves games. And then I went to a CBMC luncheon where a tennis pro was speaking. And that's the first time I really heard the gospel where it affected me.
After that, my friend asked me if I would like to know more about what the speaker said he could meet with me one morning a week before we went to work. [00:05:20] So I was really inquisitive about all of this.
But I really liked my neighbor, Dr. Larry Parker, played a lot of tennis. And so because... and I say today, when you come to trust the messenger, you'll trust the message. So I loved Larry Parker and I trusted him. And so I started meeting with him once a week in Operation Timothy.
So then I started understanding my problem wasn't everybody else. My problem was a sin problem. I remember coming back from a business trip in January 1980, and I knew what I needed to do. I needed to make a commitment to Christ and receive Him. And as I was driving through Atlanta, I thought, You know, what if I were to reckon this downtown connector and I were to pass away tonight? It hit me that night that I knew I would not be with God in heaven because I had never really done business with Him.
So that night in tears, driving through Atlanta, I was confessing my sin. And I said, Lord, I don't understand it all. But it was that night that I received Christ. [00:06:29]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible to hear. There was someone else on The Savvy Sauce. She's actually believe lives in Atlanta now. But Rachel Faulkner Brown said, "We continue to share our stories and our testimonies of what God did so that he can do it again, anew and afresh in someone else's life." So you have seen the fruit of that.
You eventually became the evangelism pastor at a mega church in Atlanta and I believe it was at that time that you had a start of your fresh vision. So will you take us back to that time and share how God spoke to you and what was the result?
Dave Pridemore: Yeah. So I was evangelism and missions pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell. When the towers came down, a friend of mine asked me to come to New York and do chaplaincy work.
This guy was kind of like me, poor, grown up in New York, and had never been out of the city. [00:07:29] And when he was 16, he was invited to go to an overnight camp and he became a Christian and came back, ended up going to Bible College, started Manhattan Bible Church, Manhattan Christian Academy. But he also was a chaplain for the Knicks and always wanted to camp because he knew what it did for him. And if he could get other inner-city kids outside the city, he can really speak to their hearts.
Charlie Warden Allen Houston, a couple pro players helped him build Hoop Heaven. And I went up the next year and saw it in action, and I had never seen such transformation in kids in one week in my life.
So I came back to my church and came back to Atlanta and I researched and said, how many camps do we have in Georgia that are exclusively for underserved kids? And I could not find one.
And when I say I'm talking, taking hundreds and maybe thousands of kids. And so I was at the beach with my wife and I took some yellow tablets because I wanted to write out what it would look like. [00:08:35] And I came up with three camps on 300 acres and serve at least 3,000 kids a summer. I ended up typing that out. And God really one day was convicting me. He was calling me to do it, although I'd never raised money. I'd never run a camp. I'd never been to camp. Didn't know anything. If you're going to find somebody to hire to do what I was called to do, you would never hire me.
I remember one day I was so... I call it in my book that I wrote, a holy miserable, because I knew He was calling me, but I did not want to do this. So I got in my car, I went down actually and went behind a Chick-fil-A in Roswell, shut off my car, was crying in my car, was going to do business with God and say, "Listen, I'm not doing this. So I'm settling this once and for all."
So I started my car back up that day, went back to my church, walked past my office to my pastor's office, and I quit my job that day because I knew God was calling me to do it. [00:09:42] You either have to say yes or no to God. And like I tell people, "If I'd never had a camp, if I never had land, if I never had any kids to camp, the most successful I've ever been in this ministry in the last 19 years was the day I went back and said yes to God."
I think that's what a lot of folks need to know. Our identity is not tied up in a ministry we have. It's tied up in being a child of God.
Laura Dugger: That's always a helpful reminder and so neat to hear how it played out for you. So he's dropping this little idea, this seed at this point, and in obedience, you said yes to him. So your vision was for a camp to serve underprivileged children in Atlanta. What miracles happened along the way as you pursued putting this vision into action?
Dave Pridemore: Well, there's so many. One of the things I think helps a person to go forward with a calling that God's given them is what they believe about themselves and their relationship to God. [00:10:50] I teach a lot of folks the grace of God, which comes out of 2 Corinthians 5:21. "He gave him who knew no sin to be sin on my behalf that I might become the righteousness of God in Christ."
So a great exchange happened in that verse. He took all my sin and put Himself in me, gave me His righteousness. So I just believe with Christ in me, what He does is He honors faith more than anything. Without faith, it's impossible to please Him.
And so I believe that once you get an idea and it's constant, kind of like the calling, that you just step out and God will do it, right? I remember I was needing some land and I had some people that wanted to give me land, but then they wanted to control everything.
So I told my wife, I said, "I do everything by faith, and the folks who want to give me land they want me to have so much money in the bank. They want me to build a certain kind of building." [00:11:50] And so I said no to two people.
Then there was a guy in my church that he knew I left and he had a big company and he takes all 500 of his employees to the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Amelia Island. So he asked my wife and I if we'd come down and be the chaplains or the minister for his company for that week. This was in December. Who wouldn't want to go to the Ritz Carlton in December? And so I went down.
What I didn't know was he had a polar bear run that he announced for Friday morning. And he said, "You know, Dave used to be my pastor and he's a chaplain this week and he's starting a new camp for kids who live in poverty. We're going to do a polar bear run tomorrow, and if anybody comes and jumps in the pool with their clothes on, I'm going to give Dave $15 dollars per person."
Well, I walked away with over a half a million dollars that morning. So God provided the money for me to buy just a beautiful, beautiful piece of land. [00:12:52] So I got on the land and I decided, you know, I need to go ahead and build right now, although I didn't have the money.
And I think that's another thing. When God speaks to me about doing something, I never have any money. But it's when it's so clear, I say, thank you, Lord.
So I said, I didn't give the money to the camp that I was renting. Another reason is they only had me down to two weeks that they would give me. And so I said, Okay, Lord, I will build eight of the 30 cabins of the Wild West Fort. But I had no money.
I went to speak at a place in Macon and a guy came up to me after I spoke and said, "I'm with Builders for Christ. And you're talking about building a fort. We can build that for you." I said, "What do you mean you can build it for us?" He said, "We can actually bring a couple hundred people out there. We can build the fort for you." [00:13:54] I said, no way.
And so he came out. And sure enough, and another guy provided all the concrete. Another guy provided all the electrical. What's so amazing is the day that the kids showed up for the camp is the same day the city official came out to inspect the camp to give us our certificate of occupancy. So we were cutting it kind of close. I said, Boy, this is a little close, right? But he gave us our certificate of occupancy and we went in there.
So we didn't quite finish the whole fort, but we had enough cabins done to go ahead and do that summer. Let me just tell you one other quick miracle. So I'm standing out in a field and they're playing, the kids are playing, and all we have are about 10 cabins and we needed 30. We didn't have it quite all finished. And so in my mind, "I'm thinking we're going to go ahead and finish the fort." [00:14:55]
But in that field, God impressed upon me. He said, "Right now the kids have to go back to the cabin if it rains. They can't go under a roof to play. And if it's too hot outside, you don't have any shade for them to do programming." He said, "I want you to build the gym."
Now I had the gym, of course, on the master plan, but that was years down the road. I said, Lord, I don't have the fort finished. It was so clear to me to do the gym. So I said, "Okay, Lord, I'm doing the gym." And I just remembered that there was a guy and his wife that came to the camp and they walked around, they loved what we did. And I remember he said, "I'm a structural engineer." I said, "Oh, I'm going to call him." So I called him to ask him if he would help me manage and build a gym. And he said yes.
I remember the day that the guy that I bought the steel from was a guy that I discipled in my other church. And then this other guy that was going to help me build it, they were looking at the steel plan and they finished talking and he said, "Dave, I need to order the steel today or tomorrow," this was on a Thursday, "in order for us to get the gym up by June." [00:16:06] He says, "$135,000." And he looked at me and I said, "I don't have any money."
He kind of looked at me like, "I can't believe I'm helping you and you don't have the money." And I said, "Well, you said today or tomorrow, let's pray and ask Him to bring it tomorrow." And he thought I was kidding, but I wasn't.
And so he said, "If I write this check, will you pay me back?" Of course, I'm thinking, "If you write the check, that's between you and God, not me and you because I do everything by faith." But he wrote the check. And we ordered the steel and the steel came.
I remember the Friday that he came out and he said, "Dave, I have three bids to erect the steel to get this up before June. One was 24000, one was 60,000 and one was 80,000." He said, Dave, I've selected the guy that's 60,000 because I know him. He will do a good job.
As soon as he said that, my phone rang and the guy on the other end of the phone said, "Hey, you don't know me, but I just met with my financial advisor and you're building a gym." [00:17:12] I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "My wife and I were talking about it on the way home and we have some money to give. We just pulled over because we felt the Lord telling us to go ahead and send you 60000." I said, "You've got to be kidding me. Talk to my friend."
So I handed the phone to my friend and sure enough, the guy said 60,000. We got the gym up in time for the summer. And then at that time in my ministry, I would write some grants, but grants you only receive when you're successful. And I got good at reading the rejection letter.
So I went to the P.O. box and I had this grant that I remembered. I had actually forgotten about it. I went to open it to read the rejection letter and there was $177,000 check in there. And so I called my friend and I said, "Hey, God gave you money back today." He said, "What do you mean?" And I told him, he said, "Dave, the difference to the penny will actually put lights in the gym." Can I put lights in the gym?" I said, "Yeah, I'm too crazy to think about putting lights. So, yes, go ahead and do that." [00:18:15]
And I know your husband works for Chick-fil-A. And the guy that sent the 60,000, he and I have become really good friends now. But he was a Chick-fil-A executive. I thought I'd throw that in. That's just one of so many, so many other miracles.
Laura Dugger: Goodness, they just bring tears to my eyes. I've read so many of these in your fantastic book, but it just leaves me in awe of our Lord. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. [00:19:16] These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.
To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: One other thing God was calling you to do was to also practically raise your own salary. You write in your book that God gave you this idea to ask 10 people for $10,000 for your salary.
Dave Pridemore: Yes. [00:20:17]
Laura Dugger: Can you share about Frank?
Dave Pridemore: Oh, Frank, yeah. Well, Frank was one of the 10 couples. These are couples I ministered with at my church for 10 years. Frank and I... I could call him and get coffee in the morning, but all of a sudden, it was like two months before we could get together. We finally got together at Einstein Bagel in Roswell.
I had my book, and I had my little spiel that I was going to tell him. Because these guys know that I already left the church. I said, "Frank, this is what I'm doing, and I'm asking 10 families if they would support Suzy and I with $10,000 so we could put it in the bank and we can get started with this ministry."
He kind of looked at me and then kind of bowed his head and shook his head like, No. I thought, "Oh, no, I have offended Frank." Then he raised his head and he said, "Dave, you know, my wife Jan is selling her Fazoli fast food restaurants." [00:21:17] He looked at me and said, "Isn't God's timing perfect?" And I thought, "No, I don't think it's perfect because I wanted to meet with you two months ago. He said, "No, Dave, she just sold a restaurant in South Carolina. Last night, Dave, we were talking about where do we tithe this $10,000?"
I put that in my book because God wanted to teach me real early on, Dave, never, ever worry about timing. The timing is not yours. You can plan, but I will make it happen in my time. That frees me up just to enjoy Him. Laura, I'm serious. I don't really care when anything happens. He taught me that early on because He doesn't want me to have any anxiety about when things are built. I love that story because it was a real teaching moment in my life. [00:22:19]
Laura Dugger: Wow. There is just a presence about you, just a patience. Mark has said this before, too, how he's so drawn to that, to mentors who are not hurried. I wonder if that's in part what God's teaching you about his timing.
Dave Pridemore: He really is. I remember having this land and it was in '08 and '09. That's when everything was terrible. Real estate, terrible, no people building. I remember going to a church that I came to Christ in, Dunwoody Baptist. The pastor was a friend of mine. I said, "Do you know anybody that does site work?" I had a lot of site work to get done. He told me about a guy. This guy's name is Barry.
I had lunch with Barry. My first mission trip was in Granada, Venezuela. Believe it or not, Barry's number one foreign mission trips were always to Granada, Venezuela. [00:23:20] So we became buddies at that lunch. Do you know he had no work to do? He came out with all of his equipment. He spent two months. He did all of the site work, water lines, sewer lines, everything for my entire frontier town. That's my first camp. He did everything as a gift.
You never know how God is going to do it or when he's going to do it. All I do is... I operate out of a principle of Romans 1:16. It says, I'm not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God into salvation. In that verse, it says the power of God is in the story. I'm not ashamed of the gospel because the gospel says it is the power. The power is in the story.
I didn't ask to do this ministry. God called me to do it. It is not my story. It is His story. I just believe the power is in his story. So I don't raise money. I just tell his story, say, "Here's what we need," and I leave. That's what I did that day. [00:24:33]
God worked on this Barry's heart. He decided, I don't have any work. I'm sending all my men, all my equipment, and we're going to get this done for Camp Grace. The power is not in me. The power is in him, in his story.
Laura Dugger: That reminds me of something that you write about on page 85. You emphasize that it's ministry first. Money follows ministry. Ministry first, money second.
Dave Pridemore: Yeah. I remember meeting with this one lady, and she was going to be a donor. And as we were talking, I remember her starting to tell me about years ago, her son was in a car accident and died. Then we spent an hour just talking. And then all of a sudden she said, "Oh, I'm sorry, Dave. Now you came to see me. What would you like? What do you need?" I said, "I don't need anything. Maybe we can meet again later."
Right. And that's principle is she needed me at that time. [00:25:31] Then also, everything I tried to do is operate out of the principle was in the word of God. You know the story of the centurion, right? The centurion came to Christ and said, My servant is dying. And up until that time, if you read, Christ had never healed anyone without touching them first.
Then Christ even said to the centurion, I will go to your house with you. Now, I know I would have said, Please come. But the centurion said, "No, no, no, you don't need to come. I know who you are. You just say the word and he will be healed." And he is only one of two people in the New Testament that Jesus said, "I have never seen such great faith in anyone in all of Israel."
In verse 13 is the verse I so like. He says, "Let it be done to you as you have believed." You see, I believe blessings will always follow belief. [00:26:30] If I believe God is going to build a fort, then I go forward as if it's done. If I believe God is going to give me a swimming pool, then I go forward as if it's done.
But once He calls you to do it, thank Him and do it. Without believing that He's going to do it, I don't think you're going to get the blessing. I think there's so many Christians that want blessed. But what if they really stepped out in faith to do? I would encourage people, man, if you want to be blessed, then identify something that is so big that if God does not show up, you will surely fail. And you will find blessings upon blessings. I think I've experienced it.
Laura Dugger: And is there any other specific scripture that has sustained you throughout this process?
Dave Pridemore: Well, when I was behind the Chick-fil-A crying. 1 Thessalonians 5:24 says, "Faithful is he who has called you." We'll do it, Dave. For some reason that came to mind. [00:27:39] And I thought about that. Okay, it's not my job to do. I believe He is faithful. If he calls you, I just believe that He will do it. I don't know how it's going to come about, but that's not my job to worry about. My job is just to walk in Him. So I probably say that verse every day for the last 20 years. Every day.
At the end of my book, I say, hey, listen, we need to have the faith about the size of a mustard seed. So you can see as He calls you into ministry and to do what He wants you to do. It's not the size of your faith. It's his faithfulness. It's always Him. You always go back to Him because without Him, Camp Grace wouldn't exist today.
Laura Dugger: Faithful is He who calls you and He will do it. That's so encouraging for each of us, regardless of what He's called us into right now. [00:28:39] Recently, there have just been these themes about discipleship defined. I've heard it described simply as sharing with another what Jesus has revealed or taught to us.
So with that in mind, Dave, as you continue to disciple us through this conversation, do you have any favorite takeaways from your experience that you want to make sure none of us miss out on?
Dave Pridemore: I think maybe Colossians 2:6 is a big verse. It says, "In the same way that you have come to know Christ Jesus as Lord..." And how did we come to know him? Through faith. It has to be by faith. Right? So it says, "In the same way that you've come to know Him, so walk in Him."
It seems like we come to know Him by faith, and then as we walk in our Christian walk, we get farther and farther from that faith and we get farther and farther from trusting Him in everyday life. [00:29:44] That's the exciting part about being a Christian. Because then by faith, we give him an opportunity to show up and do things that we can't even explain.
I think it's important to me that we get back to trusting Him in small things, big things, all things. And that's why I say I encourage people.
I was doing a devotion at the National Christian Foundation. This just came to mind. I don't know why. So after I gave my talk, this lady comes up to me. She says, "Can we go to lunch?" I didn't have any lunch plans. I said, "Sure." We go to lunch and she's telling me about this vision that God has given her out of what she's doing and mentor for entrepreneurship, young African-American inner-city poor kids. [00:30:41]
And then the more we're talking... I mean, the passion was just oozing out of her. So I looked at her and I said, "Hey, guess what?" She said, "What?" I said, "You got to do this." You've got to say yes to God. And that scared her to death. Well, then I go back months later to do another devotion at NCF. So I asked, "Where's this girl?" And they said, "Oh, she left months ago to go do a ministry with underserved girls."
So the reason she was so scared, she had never done it. It was so big she didn't know how to start. I said, "It doesn't matter. It's so big that that's why you should start." Because if He does not show up, you're going to fail.
I tell people if I've never had a camp, if no kids had ever come to camp, if none of this would have ever happened, I'm still successful because I quit my job. [00:31:42] I'm not telling everybody to quit the job. Don't get me wrong. But I did say yes to Him. And that involved me quitting my job because this was so big. But the day I quit my job and said yes, that's the day I've been most successful.
Abraham and Isaac. Abraham was so successful because he went to do something I don't think any of us could ever do. But he was right there ready to finish it. And God said, "Okay. Go to the thicket. I provided. Don't take your son's life."
So that's how serious God is about us trusting Him. If we say yes, man, Katie bar the door because He is... I'm doing some things right now that are so big that scares me. But I'm excited because of what God can do.
Our next camp is going to be called Hooptown. Like this summer, we had 480 first-time decisions, which takes us to 5,662 decisions since we started this camp out of the 15,000 kids that have come. [00:32:48]
In Hooptown, I know that God is going to have more kids come to Christ than in Frontier Town. So Frontier Town is finished. So now we're getting ready to do our next camp. And it's going to be exciting to see how God does it, because I don't have a clue how it's going to get done.
Laura Dugger: That is incredible to hear the next vision of what's coming. But can you catch us up to speed a little bit more about the current camp and a little bit clearer picture of your vision for the future?
Dave Pridemore: Oh, yeah. So the first camp was Frontier Town. We set off 455 acres. We have 500 beds and we can host right around 28,000 kids a summer. The real challenge for us, most of our kids come to camp through corporate sponsors like Chick-fil-A, you know, like your family sponsors kids. And I have 149 corporate sponsors. [00:33:52] So to get to where I want to be in 2025, I'm making an all-out push to try to get 300 corporate sponsors, because that will allow me to send 3,000 kids to camp.
When you think about what I'm doing, it's kind of crazy, but God's called it. That's why we've never finished a year in the red. We not only build a $26,000,000 complex right now, but all of our customers can't afford to come. So now we've got to go out and we've got to raise all the money to get them there. But these kids thrive at Camp Grace.
So now we have finished Frontier Town and our next camp is called Hooptown and it's 14 courts and six of the courts are on the inside air conditioning and the other courts are under pavilions on the outside. And it'll be 24 cabins and we can host 338 people at one time on that facility. We're in the process now of putting together a strategy to try to raise capital dollars to get that built. [00:34:58] What's so nice is God's already provided all the land we need for all we ever want to build.
Again, I share the story. I have a great architectural company that does renderings for me because, you know, a picture is worth a thousand words. And so these renderings are beautiful. But my biggest challenge, really, for some reason, we can get buildings up, but it's harder to get all the kids sponsored to camp.
And that's the main goal is I have a little thing going. Each one, reach one. I'm asking each one of my corporate sponsors to see if they could find one other company. And they sponsored 10 kids, which is 36,000 a year. So I believe in the next 18 months, God's going to give us 3,000 sponsors.
Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:36:08] If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox.
Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect to the more relational level. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the articles tab.
Who qualifies to come to camp and how are you connecting with these kids?
Dave Pridemore: Well, when I was sitting on the beach putting together the camp, I have to have follow-up because, you know, I've been in the church for 15 years and I was always the outreach and evangelism pastor and follow-up is really important. So I don't take any kids off the street. I only go into inner cities and find people who are working with these kids on a weekly basis. [00:37:12] And then I talk to them about becoming a long-term partner.
I have 59 partners in 27 cities and in four states. My original 501c was called Vision Atlanta, but now I have a DBA called Camp Grace.
So what happens is people are hearing about us through word of mouth and kids from Alabama, from Florida, from South Carolina, and Georgia. South Carolina, especially, we took over, I think it was 270 kids this summer and they want to bring like so many more. But that's why we have to keep growing.
I tell people, if you have a church that's baptizing 400 to 500 a summer, wouldn't you want to double that? Rick Warren, he's a pastor in Southern California. I used to go to all his conferences and actually I interviewed for a job out there years ago. [00:38:12] He says, if you're not growing, you're dying. And he has the six D's. He calls the six D's of God grows you as He grows your ministry.
And those six D's are something that really come out of what I do. And they are, God will give you a dream, and from that dream, you have to make a decision. And from that decision, once you say yes, you can always count on delay. And after delay, you're going to have difficulty. That difficulty will lead you to dead end. You'll get to a point you want to throw in the towel. But after the dead end will come deliverance. So what I tell people is never give up and never stop. Because deliverance with God always comes.
Laura Dugger: That is so encouraging and sounds so accurate. Practically speaking, I would love to add some links in our show notes for today's episode. If someone's hearing this and they're feeling nudged to contribute in some way, where would you want to direct them to support all of this work and vision? [00:39:16]
Dave Pridemore: You can go to thecampgrace.com and there's ways to sponsor children there. We actually are working with two people right now. One's in Canada and one's in Houston. And they want to do a Camp Grace Canada and a Camp Grace Texas.
So we're lending our expertise on inner city camps to other people. There may be some people listening to this that says, you know, we don't have a camp for kids that live in poverty anywhere in my area. If they want to call us, call me on (404) 493-4075. I would love to speak to them because we really have a turnkey manual that I could go to Chicago. If I had land and a person who had passion, we could do a Camp Grace Chicago tomorrow.
Laura Dugger: Well, thank you for sharing that. We will certainly add that to the show notes for today's episode. [00:40:19] Dave, you just have an inspiring spiritual gift of faith and you have clearly exercised it well. There's so much that we could learn from you but now I want to zero in on discernment. So how have you grown to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit against your own voice or culture or the enemy?
Dave Pridemore: Well, we're made in three parts. We have a body, we have a soul and we have a spirit. Before we were Christians, we didn't have the Holy Spirit in us, so we were dead in our trespasses and sin.
Now, you know, what's called the flesh or the soul is our intellect and our emotion, and our will. Now that we're Christians, the spirit of God will test and give answers to our intellect, our emotion, our will. I call it our thinker, our feeler, and our chooser. And I call it a check in my spirit. [00:41:18]
Let me give you an example. I was going to get zoning for the second time I tried to get zoning, but everybody was so ugly and they didn't want us to bring our camp to their area because of all the kind of kids we were bringing.
So I was driving home and I was talking to God and I said, God, everywhere I go to get zoning, everybody's the same. They don't want us to come so I might as well go ahead and buy this camp. So the next morning, my real estate agent called me and she said, "Dave, I've got the contract. Let's go ahead and buy this land. I can't believe how ugly all those people were."
Her name was Shelly. I said, "Shelly, I can't." And she said, "Why, Dave?" I said, "I don't know. I just know that it doesn't feel right right now. I have to wait." And I call that a check in my spirit. You see, the spirit of God will lead you into all righteousness. All right. And when you have a hesitation in you, then you just wait. [00:42:17]
That's how I personally discern what God's telling me to do. And like this next thing I'm getting ready to build. He gives you not only a go-ahead. You have an enthusiasm inside of you that can't wait. You're like a racehorse at the gate. And when I'm not like a racehorse at the gate, I don't do it. I just don't do it.
I can say no to so many things because I know when it's of Him, because His spirit gives my mind the go and the emotion and the will to go. Right? So that's the exciting thing about being a believer, because now you have the Holy Spirit guiding and directing you.
Now, I could have still bought that land. Right. I could have. But I think I would have been miserable. And then two weeks later, a guy called me about the land I have now. I walked in the zoning, it was packed. I thought it was about me again. But it wasn't about me.
I gave my testimony, the guy said, in the opposition, "No opposition." They said "settle." [00:43:17] I didn't realize it was right in the center of the state. It was the only camp I looked at that had county water on it. And that's a big deal if you're doing a camp.
So if I would have said no to God and gotten the flesh. John 6:63 says the spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. There's nothing good in the flesh. So if I make decisions without the spirit telling me that I'm going to be in some deep doo doo. But I don't know how other people do it. But I think you got you kind of know. When you're talking to God you kind of know when He says go or when He says wait.
A lot of my stuff is wait, believe it or not. Because He will not only say go, He will give you an enthusiastic excitement about the next step, about what to do. And if I'm not excited and enthusiastic about it, I just wait.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's so good. It just makes me think of the first part of Isaiah 55:12 that says, "For you shall go out with joy and be led out with peace." [00:44:22]
Dave Pridemore: Man, that is it. Because we want God's best. I have a saying at camp that God gave His best. So we're going to build the best. I had a little African-American foster girl come and she was put in a cabin with a gal that the stories were the same. This girl was, of course, a college kid and her mom was in jail and didn't know her dad. The same as little Elijah.
And Elijah comes and she falls in love with her counselor. She comes to Christ that week, she goes home. And two months later, her foster dad calls me and says, "What did you do to her?" I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "She's praying, she's reading the Bible, she's wanting to go to college now, she's telling me." And so I told him and he said, "I can't believe what you've done. If I could ever help you, let me know."
And so I said, "What do you do since you said you want to help me?" He said, "I built the Olympic pool in Atlanta. I built pools for 20-plus years. I said, "Man, I need a pool." [00:45:25] I don't know what he was thinking, but I lived in a big subdivision. I want the best for our kids.
This subdivision was a zero-entry mushroom Junior Olympic. It was like a resort pool. And so I gave him a picture of it. He said, "Dave, I have built that for 500, 600 in subdivisions." I said, "I know that's what we want." And he sent 40 guys and he built a 600,000, 130,000-gallon pool, which is the best. Most of our kids learn to swim at camp in that pool. So why settle for second best when you're working for God?
Laura Dugger: Well, as you're walking us through this story, it just takes me back because when this was becoming more of a reality around 2008, that's when our paths crossed during that time. You were my husband, Mark's mentor. Mark and I were not married yet. But you would meet together with Mark and Chris Allen and just encourage them. Eventually you ended up officiating our wedding. [00:46:34]
When I'm going back to that time, I just remember we had invited a lot of our unbelieving friends to the wedding and we had a captive audience. So we didn't want to miss out on an opportunity to share the good news. So do you remember the story of grace you shared as Mark and I left the sanctuary as a newly married couple?
Dave Pridemore: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's the difference between justice, mercy, and grace. Of course, my camp is called Camp Grace. And I just believe people need to understand grace to be effective in everything that they do. I liken it to if you're speeding in your car, right, and you're going 30 miles over the speed limit and the officer pulls you over, well, you deserve justice and justice is he's going to write you a ticket.
In the spiritual realm, we deserve justice, and that justice is getting what you deserve. So we deserve death and separation from God for all eternity because of sin in our life.
So the officer is writing out what I jokingly call the sin ticket, right? And so because you or I have had... let's say we've had four other tickets and we, you know, this is a super speeder ticket, man, he's going to throw the book at us and so we look at the officer and say, officer, will you give me mercy? [00:48:01]
And to our surprise, the officer says yes. And he takes the sin ticket and he tears it into a bunch of pieces and he throws it in the air and it goes as far as the wind blows it as far as east is from west. So the mercy that God gave us is the blood of Christ takes away the sin of the world.
So mercy is not getting what you deserve. We deserve that ticket. We deserve separation from God for all eternity. But God so loved us that He sent Jesus so that he could tear up the sin ticket, so that He could get rid of sin once and for all.
Once we just think about if an officer tore that sin ticket up, how would you feel sitting in the car? And it's the same thing the night I came to Christ. I felt so good about my decision because I knew I had entrance into the kingdom of heaven. [00:49:01] I was a child of God. I had no sin at that moment.
And then I try to explain grace by all of a sudden the officers walk into his car, then he stops and he starts walking back toward your car. And you say, "Oh, I knew this was too good to be true." I knew that that ticket would have cost you $300. So he takes three new $100 bills and he hands it to you. He hands it to me. And he says, have a good day. Well, I would take that $300 and I would put it in my pocket.
I've been crucified with Christ. It's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. So He has put his life in us. So if justice is getting what you deserve and mercy is not getting what you deserve, then grace is getting what you don't deserve.
That's why I can discern the best of my ability what God is telling me to do, because He is in me. I tell people, quit trying so hard to do the Christian life. You can't do it. [00:50:05] But there's somebody in you that can do it through you. We don't have to do anything for God. It's what he does from us that really matters. So grace is a big deal to me.
Laura Dugger: It is a big deal to you. You've shared that so much throughout your life and this conversation today and even tying up that story of our wedding, we wanted people to experience grace in a really tangible way.
So after we had exited, you shared this story of the good news, and we had hidden a lump of money under someone's seat in the sanctuary. And it was actually Chris Allen's parents, Don and Sheila Allen, were the ones who received that money to experience grace that they didn't deserve. We're just showing up for a wedding.
And then at the reception, I don't know if we ever shared this with you, they found us and insisted that we take that with us on our honeymoon. [00:51:01] And when we tried to resist, they said, "No, no, no, it's grace." And so that grace upon grace has been evident through these stories that you've shared and through what Christ models that he gives us more than we could ever ask or imagine and definitely more than we deserve. So thank you for illustrating that so well.
Again, we will put the links to the website and your phone number. Is there anything else we can add if we want to support your vision or read your book?
Dave Pridemore: That's pretty much it. We just love what we do. We see so many changed lives. Just pray for the summers for Camp Grace and for salvation for the hearts of kids.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Dave, you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:52:05]
Dave Pridemore: I think my savvy sauce is just pretty practical. And praying without ceasing is just chatting with God as you go through the day. I think it's really important that you stay connected and you just talk to Him like he's your best friend. When you have concerns, just talk to yourself. I call it self-talk. But I think it's just a practical thing to just pray in a sense is just talking to God throughout the day as you walk and go about your business.
Laura Dugger: What a wonderful savvy sauce that is and something that you model so well. Dave, I am so grateful for you and your faith and your ministry and just the impact and legacy that you've left on our lives and through this chat today. So thank you very much for being my guest.
Dave Pridemore: Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for the invite. [00:53:04]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:54:10] We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? [00:55:11]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:56:11]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 15, 2024
Monday Apr 15, 2024
*Disclaimer* This episode includes thematic material.
Special Patreon Release: What to Do When You Don't Like Your Story with Sharon Jaynes
**Transcription Below**
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;" Revelation 12:11a (KJV)
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
In your book you share the secret to living a better story—will you share what that secret is?
-
What are some ways we can break free from shame of the past to find joy in our present?
-
How does the sharing of our story—both highs and lows—help us heal?
Sharon Jaynes is a conference speaker and the author of twenty-five books. She served as vice president and radio cohost of Proverbs 31 Ministries for ten years and currently writes for their online devotions.
Sharon is cofounder of Girlfriends in God, which strives to cross generational, racial, and denominational boundaries to bring the body of Christ together as believers. She and her husband live in Weddington, North Carolina.
Connect with Sharon on Facebook, Instagram, or Her Website
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
When You Don't Like Your Story by Sharon Jaynes
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Famous at Home Podcast
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
I'm excited to recommend an additional podcast to check out. Famous at Home with Dr. Josh and Christi Straub. I love listening to their podcast, and I think you will too.
Sharon James is my returning guest. I love Sharon's transparency as she is about to share her testimony, and the pages from her story she used to wish she could just rip out but God taught her the worst parts of our past are the very thing he uses the most. She's going to unpack what that means for each of us.
Here's our chat.
Sharon Jaynes: Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Sharon. Oh, it's good to be here. Had so much fun last time, I can't wait to chat again. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm excited about our time together as well. Last time, you had given us just a little glimpse into your life story, but I would enjoy if you would be willing to dive a little bit deeper now.
Sharon Jaynes: Okay, well, I'm going to back up and tell a little bit of what I said last time, because I know we'll probably have new listeners today. But I was raised in eastern North Carolina in a small town. My father had a business. My mom had her own business. We lived in a nice neighborhood and a nice ranch-style house. I had an older brother, and we had a collie dog named Lassie.
So it just looked like an all-American family. But you know what, Laura, there was a secret behind that pretty door, and the secret was that my parents fought verbally and physically in front of us. I saw many things as a child I shouldn't have seen, heard words I didn't even know what they meant, but I knew how they made me feel.
I remember hiding in my room at night when my parents would fight. [00:02:17] My dad drank a lot, and he would hit my mom. She would hit back. She was a very bitter, angry woman.
I grew up a lot of my childhood just afraid. I can remember going in the closet at night and hiding, and sometimes I would sneak in my brother's room, and we would hide together.
The next day after one of those fights, maybe my mom would have a black eye or she'd have a cut, and she'd go into a passive-aggressive mode where she wouldn't speak for a few weeks. And my dad, after the next morning, after one of these fights, he would always be crying at the kitchen table saying how sorry he was and that he would never do it again. But he always did. It was kind of a cycle in my home. It was not a good story. This was not a good story.
When I was 12 years old, there was a woman in my neighborhood, my best friend. My best friend was Wanda. She was a little redheaded girl, and I loved being down at her house on the next block because her parents loved each other. They would hug and kiss in front of us and had such a strong marriage and had such a happy family. [00:03:21]
I really didn't know why they were so happy all the time, but I knew it had something to do with Jesus because Mrs. Henderson, even though I loved her, I thought she was a little odd because she would walk around the house singing little praise songs, and she would talk about Jesus like she knew Him personally. And I thought that was very strange.
Because, you see, Laura, as bad as my family were, there was alcohol, there was pornography. I mean, you name it, it went on behind that door. And as bad as we were, we went to church on Sundays, and we walk into that very politically correct church, and people would say, "How are you today?" And we would say, "Fine". But we weren't fine, and I imagine a lot of people around us weren't fine.
Well, I started spending Saturday nights a lot over at the Henderson's home, which meant I would go to church with them on Sunday. And when I went into their Bible teaching church, I noticed there were a lot of people who talked about Jesus like they knew Him personally.
I couldn't have explained it this way then, but what I was seeing is there is a big difference between having a religion in your life and having a relationship with Jesus. [00:04:28] I wanted that relationship with Jesus like they had.
So when I was 14, I did accept Christ as my Savior, and He did forever change my life. But the hard part was, Laura, that I had to go back home and to live in that violent environment. But that's kind of the backdrop, the backdrop of not having a good story and how that story has turned into My Greatest Victories, which is the title of the book, When You Don't Like Your Story, subtitled What If Your Worst Chapters Could Become Your Greatest Victories? And that story has become one of my greatest victories. That's kind of how it started.
You know, a lot of my books have come out of that experience, and that's one way that it has become a great victory. One of my books is called Enough: Silencing the Lies That Steal Your Confidence.
For example, growing up the way I did, I constantly felt like I wasn't good enough, wasn't smart enough, wasn't pretty enough. [00:05:29] But God used all that in my life to show me how to replace lies with truth. And so that's what I do now is I help other women learn how to have better stories and to learn how to replace the lies that they've heard as children and as adults with God's truth. So that's kind of the cliff notes of the, let's say, the first 14 years.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Thank you, first of all, for sharing your story. Was that the catalyst for writing this book?
Sharon Jaynes: The catalyst for writing this book is that I've been ministering with women for about 25, 30 years. I have watched God turn my worst chapters into my greatest ministry tools. I've watched God take my broken stories and turn them into beautiful prose.
The pages that I wanted to rip out, God said, oh, no, we're going to highlight that because you're going to use that to help minister to other people. [00:06:33] So that process started early in my ministry.
But as I have worked and loved on women for all these years, I've seen that so many are stuck in the bad chapters of their story and they don't know how to get out of those bad chapters. So that is why I wrote the book is to help women who were stuck and struggling with the worst parts of their story.
Because usually, Laura, it's not the whole of someone's story that they don't like. Usually, it's just certain pages or certain chapters. And they really want to go through and rip out those pages or delete those pages, those certain experiences in their lives. But we cannot delete, discard, or mend the past. But we can repurpose what we've gone through to reclaim the present and say, "God, how can I use what I've gone through to now help someone else?
So that's really the impetus for writing the book. [00:07:33] It's really not about me. It's about helping everyone who has any chapter, any story in their life that tends to continue to control them. I want to show them how don't get stuck there, but how you can move forward and use what you've gone through now for God's glory.
Laura Dugger: To go a little bit further with that, then, will you elaborate how and why you recommend we all share our stories?
Sharon Jaynes: Let me give you an example. Let's go back to my father. Three years after I came to Christ, I went out of the country actually to study. This was before my senior year. I told my mom at this point when I was 17, when my parents would get in a fight, I would be the one to break them up.
When I was 17, I had opportunity to leave for three months, but I didn't want to go because I thought, who's going to break up the fights? If I leave, who's going to take care of my parents? See, I had stepped into that parent role, which happens a lot when you grow up in a family like that. [00:08:37]
But my group of 17-year-old friends... listen, Laura, when you get teenagers in love with Jesus and on fire for the Lord, they are something. Well, my group of 17-year-old friends, they said, "We prayed about it. We think you should go." So the night before we prayed over my house. I mean, we were something else. Prayed over my house, walked around that house. And I told my mom, "If something happens when I'm gone, you've got to go to Mrs. Henderson because I'm not going to be here to help you."
First night I was gone, my dad came home drunk, started a fight. Mom ran down to Mrs. Henderson's. And that night my mom gave her life to the Lord. So I always laugh and say, "I was messing in their business so much. God had to get me out of the country before he can deal with my mom." And listen, that's a lesson for parents. Sometimes we can get so involved in our kids' lives that God can't do what He needs to do because we're buttoned in.
So I was gone. My mom came to Christ and came home and told my dad she was going to forgive him for what he had done, everything he had done. [00:09:38] And listen, Laura, I would never, ever encourage a woman to stay with an abusive man. Never. Hear me say that. You need to be safe.
But my mom chose to stay. And that night my father quit drinking. Cold turkey. Never drank again. But the way he told me when I came home, he said, "I will go to church with you, but I could never become a Christian because there's too many things I've done in my life. God could never forgive me."
Of course, Laura, I told him exactly what you would have told him, is that, "Dad, none of us could be good enough. If we could be good enough, Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross." But He just could not understand that kind of grace.
Now, I want you to fast forward three more years. So this is six years after I came to Christ. Both of my parents had their own business. My dad had a building supply company, my mom had a craft shop and taught art classes.
So my mom had gone on a business trip to a craft show somewhere up in Pennsylvania. [00:10:42] We lived in North Carolina. My dad was about to be sued in his business world because he had signed a contract with another company and was breaking a restrictive contract. So he was going to be taken to court and he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
So for three years... see, I've been praying for my dad for six years. My mom and her friends praying for three. So my dad was about to have a nervous breakdown. He got in his car... Now, hold on to your seatbelts here. I'm going to tell you this fast. He got in his car and drove to Pennsylvania to try to find my mother. He could not find her. He stopped at a church and he said, "I need somebody to pray for me. Is a priest here?" "No," the secretary said, "the priest isn't here. But I know a pastor, a Baptist pastor, who's out in the woods building his church."
She drew a little map on a scrap piece of paper and gave it to my dad. He got this little scrap piece of paper. He drove in the woods somewhere in Pennsylvania with a man I'll never know. [00:11:44] And he drove up to this fellow and he said, "I need for you to pray for me." And the pastor said, "Well, sit down, Alan. Let's sit on this lock and tell me what's going on."
So, probably, Laura, for the first time in his life, my dad told this man everything he had done and what was going on in his life. Now, the way my father explained it to me, this man then put his arm around my dad and he said, "No, Alan, let me tell you what I've done." And the way dad explained it, he said, "Sharon, everything I had done in my life, this man had done too. And I knew that if God could forgive him and he could be a pastor, then God could forgive me, too."
You see, Laura, that is the power of our story. My father had been going to church with us for three years, but he didn't see anybody like him. Do you think they were there? Absolutely. There were men there who had struggled like he had, but nobody was telling their story. But God had to take him all the way to Pennsylvania to hear a man who had a similar story for my dad to see the grace of God could work in his life as well. [00:12:51] That's the power of our story.
You know, it tells us in Revelation they overcame him... This is talking about the devil. They overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. You think about that. Our story is so powerful that it's in the same sentence with the blood of the lamb. So no wonder the devil doesn't want us telling it. No wonder he wants us to be ashamed of it and tells us, "Keep it to yourself because people are going to like you. They're going to think less of you." No wonder, because he knows that is what will destroy him along with the blood of the lamb.
So that was one of the first times that I saw how important someone's story was to change someone's life. In the book, I talk about four steps to having a better story or turning your worst chapters into your greatest victories. But the last step is to tell your story. Because I think once you go through and you use your story, the bad parts of your story for good, and you show people how God has redeemed you, and that's such a big church word, but it basically means to exchange something bad for something good, how God has changed you, then once we use it for good, Satan can't use it against you anymore. [00:14:13]
You leave the pain place and you leave the shame place because, you know, God is using it for His glory. So Satan's not going to throw it back in your face anymore. It's now something giving glory to God, not something that we have to hide and be ashamed of.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Have you ever found yourself in a moment with your loved ones where you were there, but you weren't really all there? Your mind was chasing identity outside the home as your loved ones chase your attention inside the home? Welcome to the Famous at Home podcast with marriage and leadership coaches, Dr. Josh and Christi Straub.
Let's be honest. We've all been there where we've given our leftovers to our biggest fans who actually live under our same roof instead of giving them our best. But here's the good news. It doesn't take major life changes to shift how we show up.
With this realistic, grace-filled look at the struggles families face, The Famous at Home podcast is like having a cup of coffee with authentic friends who just get you. [00:15:16] Yet it also offers practical and life-changing coaching strategies to help spouses, parents, and leaders stay emotionally engaged and connected to their biggest fans.
With topics designed to help you become a rock star in your own home, set healthy rhythms between work and home, and build a rock-solid marriage, The Famous at Home podcast will encourage and inspire you.
I've personally listened to this podcast for years, and I highly recommend even going back to the beginning and listening from the start because there are timeless truth principles packed in all of these episodes, such as the lies our screens tell us or taking care of yourself as a parent.
My husband and I have gotten to spend just a little bit of time with these two in recent years, and I can attest that they are full of integrity both on and off the air. So I am thrilled to get to recommend The Famous at Home podcast because the greatest red carpet you'll ever walk is through your front door.
Laura Dugger: Okay, well, you've given us the last one, so now can you share some more of those first steps to having a better story? [00:16:22]
Sharon Jaynes: Okay, well, let's just start at the beginning. I think the first thing we have to do is to go back and look and see what are those pages? What is the part of my story that I'm not letting go of it?
I mean, I met somebody yesterday, and we were talking about their story, and they just went back and they talked about... I mean, this is something that happened to them 30 years ago, and rather than wanting to move forward and wanting to be well and having a better story, for 30 years, she had been picking at a scab is the way I describe it.
We can have something happen in our lives, something... There's two ways: something done to us by someone else or something done through us. Maybe, Laura, it's something we've done ourselves, and we keep beating ourselves up about it and listening to the enemy who's telling us, reminding us what we did and how we did it.
You know, the Scripture says that God throws our sins into the deepest of seas. But I love what Corrie Ten Boom says. Sometimes, you know, he puts up a message that says "no fishing allowed", but we go back in and fish it back out, and we live in a place of condemnation, but we've got to think, am I picking at a scab? Am I not allowing God to heal it? [00:17:37]
Remember when Jesus went to the pool and there was a man... There was a pool that the lame would sit around and the infirmed, and they believed that when the water stirred, an angel stirred it, and the first one in would get healed.
Well, Jesus goes up to this pool of water, and there's a man who has been lame for 38 years, sitting by this pool, waiting to be the first one in. Jesus walks up to this man, and it was always, to me, seemed like such a strange question. He said, "Do you want to get well?"
Now, that is a strange question, but let's think about it a minute. So many times when we've been hurt by someone, Jesus comes up to us and asks the same question. Well, do you want to get well? Do you want to let go of that pain? Do you want to let go of the bitterness? Do you want to let go of the anger, or you want to hang on to it? And that's something we have to decide. Do I want to get well? [00:18:36]
If we decide, yes, Lord, I want to get well, we decide, I will not live bitter. I will not live angry. I will not live disappointed. I don't want to live discouraged or wounded or ashamed any longer. I am not going to live just as a victim of my circumstances. I want to get well. I am going to stop picking at the scab and allow God to heal that wound. That's the first step, making a decision.
Then the second step, again, is either what's been done to us or through us. So let's look at what's been done to us. I'll call that leaving the pain place. That involves forgiving others. And that is so hard for us Christians, is forgiveness. And yet it's amazing. That's what our whole faith is built on. The whole Christian faith is built on the forgiveness of our sins. And yet we struggle with forgiving others. [00:19:33]
One time I went to a college football game. And I was sitting on the end of a row. And the people were walking up the stands. They had the concrete steps. And right beside me, where I was sitting by that step, people kept tripping. It really got comical because they weren't getting hurt. They were just tripping on the step. And they would spill their drink. After a while, it was just kind of funny.
So at the halftime, I thought, why are they tripping on this step? So I got up and I measured the steps. And that step right beside me was like a quarter of an inch taller than the other steps. And I thought, Lord, that's why we trip on the step of forgiveness. It's just a little bit harder than some of the other disciplines in the Christian faith. It's a little bit harder. We have to pick up our feet a little bit more. But it is so important.
And until we forgive people for what they have done to us, we will never be healed and we will never have a better story. That's how important it is. [00:20:41]
Now, let me say this. Let me tell you what forgiveness is and is not. Forgiving someone is not saying that what they did doesn't matter. It's not saying that it was okay or that it did not happen. Forgiveness, the actual Greek word... see, the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the New Testament was written in Greek. And the Greek word means to cut someone loose. So forgiveness means to cut someone loose.
Think of it as if you got up every morning and the people you didn't forgive, you strap them on your back and you're carrying that burden around with you, that burden of unforgiveness. Well, forgiveness means to cut that burden loose and to let them go free.
So when we forgive someone, we're cutting them loose, we're letting them go free and we're going to let God deal with it. Because you know what, Laura, when we don't forgive someone, the people we don't forgive, they don't care. A lot of times they don't even know that we're carrying this burden around. It's only hurting us. It's only keeping us in a sick place.[00:21:43] And it's keeping us in a very dark chapter.
And it's only when we cut them loose and let them go that that wound… we can stop picking at it, how it was done and who did it and when they did it, stop picking at it and allow it to heal, to become a beautiful scar that then represents a story in our life of something amazing God has done with us.
Let me tell you two different sentences. I did not write these sentences, but they're so powerful. One is forgiveness is setting the prisoner free and then realizing that the prisoner was you. The other is unforgiveness is like drinking a poison and waiting for the other person to die.
So forgiveness is a gift that we give ourselves. And once we forgive those people who have hurt us, it changes the ending. It will help change the ending of our story.
Laura Dugger: What an important topic to cover. [00:22:43] Those are just the first two steps. Could you elaborate on the third?
Sharon Jaynes: Well, the third step, just as we forgive other people, sometimes the person that we have the hardest time forgiving is that person that we're looking at in the mirror. The hardest person to forgive sometimes is ourselves.
Now, some will say, well, forgiving yourself isn't really a biblical principle. It's really about receiving God's forgiveness. But you know what? People say, I can't forgive myself. So let's just meet people where they are. Receiving God's forgiveness and forgiving yourself are kind of tethered together.
But sometimes we will have things in our lives. Someone might've had an abortion in their past, or they might've been unfaithful or had sexual promiscuity in their past. I mean, there's a long list. And I hear women say, "I know God's forgiven me. I've prayed that God will forgive me and I know He has, but I just can't forgive myself." [00:23:42]
You know what? That is like saying that what Jesus Christ did on the cross is not enough. It's like saying what He did for us, that there's something more that we have to do to earn that grace and forgiveness. But we can't do anything to earn it. We simply have to receive it.
So we have to let go of the shame and condemnation. And listen, shame and condemnation was... we saw that in the garden of Eden. That was one of the first things that happened to Adam and Eve. Once they disobeyed God is shame entered the world and they felt condemnation and they hid and they try to cover their shame with those leaves. And God said, no, we got to have a sacrifice, an animal sacrifice.
The first question in the whole Bible is God coming and looking for Adam and Eve and saying, Where are you? So even in our shame place, God calls us, where are you? And He's calling us to leave that shame place and to come out of this shame place and be clothed in his grace. [00:24:46]
Shame, just like we saw with Adam and Eve, it hides authenticity. See that's going to keep us from sharing our story. It denies responsibility. It blames vehemently. It blocks vulnerability. Shame breeds insecurity. It destroys dignity. It shackles us to our past. And shame keeps our story stuck in the worst chapters and it blocks our ability to move forward, to have better chapters.
So we have to come out of that shame place and say, Jesus, thank you for giving your life for me. Thank you that you did that so that I can be free of my sin and I can live a different story. So coming out of the shame place is key. The third step of having a better story and how those worst chapters can become our greatest victories.
Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." [00:25:51] And because our tagline here is practical chats for intentional living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life. What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that's improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com.
We've already mentioned the healing that's available, especially as we share our stories, that it not only heals us, but it provides comfort and healing to those who are listening to it. But how do we know if someone is safe or if we want to begin sharing our story, who should we share it with first?
Sharon Jaynes: Well, I believe we need to find someone who loves us no matter what. Find that one person. If you've got parts of your story, you've never told anyone, find that one person that you know is going to love you and not judge you.
I have many example within the pages of this book of women doing that and telling someone for the first time, you know, what they have done in their life. [00:26:53] I remember sitting with a girl at a women's retreat. Precious. Oh, she was so precious. She shared about how her stepdad had begun to abuse her when she was a teenager and she ran away from home with nothing. This woman found her and said, "I know how you can make some money and support yourself." And she became a prostitute, not very long, but she did sell her body for prostitution.
Now this is years later, she's married to a wonderful man, she has children, everybody thinks she's just precious. She said, "I've never told anybody this, but I'm telling you." And I said, "Well, how does it make you feel?" She said, "It makes me feel free because you don't look at me any differently now than you did before I told you."
So I suggest you find one person that you can tell and share it with them. And just think about the freedom that you feel when you tell your story.
You know, I love the story of Joseph. [00:27:56] He had a bad story to begin with. Joseph, if you recall, was one of the favorite sons, his father, he had the coat of many colors and he was the least favorite sibling of all of his brothers. And he had a dream that, that he was going to be at some point in his life, his father and his brothers and his mother were all going to bow down to him. And in his naivety, I guess he told his brothers that dream, which made them hate him even more.
And over the next several years, Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. He was falsely accused of attempted rape by the man who owned him, his wife. He was thrown into prison. And at each step it says God was with him. But this did not look like a good story. And I imagine Joseph was thinking, this is not how this story is supposed to go.
But eventually he ended up interpreting one of the Pharaoh's dreams, about seven years of plenty followed by seven years of want. [00:29:01] And he was made second in command of Egypt. And that dream finally came to fruition.
Now, when he had his sons, he named one Ephraim and one Manasseh. And before his father Jacob died, he took his sons to be blessed and he put his sons before his dad. Manasseh was supposed to get the blessing and Ephraim was there also, but Manasseh the oldest would get the main blessing from his grandfather. And Joseph put his oldest son right in front of his father's right hand to receive the blessing. But then Jacob crossed his hands and he gave the better blessing to the youngest.
Now what's so important about that? Well, Manasseh's name meant God has caused me to forget in the land of my suffering. Ephraim, his youngest son, meant God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my suffering. So what got the better blessing? It's not enough just to forget. We can be fruitful in the land of our suffering. [00:30:01] That is the son that got the better blessing.
And when we share our stories, we can be fruitful in our suffering, not just forgetting. So forgetting about it is not enough. That's not the better blessing. The better blessing is to use what we've gone through and to help other people.
You know, it tells us in scriptures, it says, God comforts us in all of our afflictions so that... and man, those two words are important. So that we can in turn comfort someone when they're struggling with the same comfort we've received from God.
That's kind of convoluted there, but basically what that verse Paul is saying, God doesn't comfort us just to make us comfortable. God comforts us so that we can comfort other people, makes us comfort-able. One way that God redeems our stories is we can use what we've gone through to then comfort someone else.
You know, Laura, for years I went through infertility and I lost a child. And when those things happened to me, who did I want to talk to? [00:31:00] I wanted to talk with someone who had gone through the same struggles that I had gone through, someone who had also lost a child, someone who had also gone through infertility.
We have gone through particular struggles in our lives and God will bring people across our paths who need to hear our particular story. At that point we will have a decision to make. Am I going to share my story or am I going to keep it to myself?
You know, there was some parts of my story that honestly at the beginning I really didn't want to tell. Then I sensed from God, Him speaking to my heart and Him saying, "Would you rather people think well of you or think well of Me?" And I'm like, "Oh Lord, I want people to think well of you." So honestly there's nothing I'll hold back any longer.
Now I want to say one thing, Laura, because I think this is so important. As we've talked about these four steps to healing, let me tell you what I'm not talking about. I am not talking about just going out and telling people every bad thing that's ever happened to you or every bad thing that you've ever done. [00:32:03] Just sharing the bad part of your story. That's not going to help anyone.
What does help someone is when we do share what has happened to us and how God has healed us, how we share what we have done, and how God has forgiven us and we've moved forward. So it's not like we're telling this long story of everything bad that's happened and then at the end we tack on Jesus, give Him a little sideline at the end,"Oh yeah, then I met Jesus and everything's fine." That's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about using our story is almost like a modern-day parable of how Jesus can do in your life, how He can heal you, how he can get you through these dark times and show you His glory. So I wanted to clarify that too.
Laura Dugger: I think it's so helpful to hear how this has proven true in your own life. That's so hard to hear what all you've gone through, and yet I can see why that would very much help others. And you can glorify God through sharing that. [00:33:04]
So how can all of us view our story through a lens that makes it all worthwhile?
Sharon Jaynes: When you go to the eye doctor, if you've ever been before, you know, you sit down in the chair and they have the eye chart up and they put a lens down. They say, which can you see the chart better? Lens one or lens two? Lens three or lens four? And we pick which lens helps us to see the chart the best, the clearest.
I think we need to make sure that we are looking at our stories through the right lens. Looking at our stories through the sovereignty of God, the grace of God, or looking at it through grumbling and saying how much we don't like our story.
You know, going back to Joseph, remember his story did not turn out like he thought he would. Those 20 years or so of him getting from his father's house to Egypt. But when his brothers came to him and he revealed who he was, that he was indeed the boy that they had sold into slavery and they were scared to death, don't you know they were, he said, "You know what? [00:34:11] You meant evil against me, but God had been it for good, the saving of many lives."
And it's so easy for us to look through that lens of, oh poor me and I can't believe this happened and why this, why me? Why now? We can look through that lens and get stuck there or we can look at the better lens, that lens that says that God uses all things to work together for the good. That doesn't mean all things are good.
I'm not going to say losing my child was a good thing, but I am going to say that God has used it for good because now I can empathize with someone who has gone through that same struggle and I can share with them the healing power of God. Because you see my pain qualifies me to know what I'm talking about.
So many times we think that what we've done in our lives or maybe what was done to us disqualifies us. But no, it qualifies us to know what we're talking about and it makes us believable, it makes hope conceivable and it makes God visible. [00:35:13]
Laura Dugger: Wow. And Sharon, there's still so much more that we could cover that we won't have time for today, but if people want to learn from you further, where would you direct them to find you online?
Sharon Jaynes: They can go to Sharonjaynes.com and my last name is J-A-Y-N-E-S. So Sharonjanes.com. This book has a Bible study in the back of the book. So it's great for people to do with a friend or to do in groups.
Also on my website there are videos. So there are video lessons that go along with the study guide in the back of the book. You can also get the book on Amazon, [TBD?], your local bookstore, Barnes and Noble, you know, anywhere where you tend to buy Christian books, it's there too. There are some extra resources on my website that go along with the book if they want to check it out there.
Laura Dugger: Perfect. Okay. Well, we will link to all of that in our show notes today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical. [00:36:18] And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Sharon Jaynes: I think when it comes to When You Don't Like Your Story, the savvy sauce for me is really listening to other people's stories, loving on people when they tell me their stories, and then using those stories as modern-day parables. That really helps me to make it practical.
As you'll read these stories in the book, you'll see that when we have a modern-day parable, just like when Jesus told parables, when He talked about the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, it's like yeast that's in the dough. It makes it practical for us and it helps us to understand what He's talking about.
And I think it's the same way when we listen to other people's stories and when we tell our stories. It makes it very practical to say, this is what Jesus looks like and this is what He does.
Laura Dugger: You articulate all of that so well. I appreciate your vulnerability and your willingness to go first. [00:37:20] You've been such a role model to all of us for how we can start to share our stories to heal ourselves, to benefit the listener, and ultimately to glorify God. So, Sharon, thank you again for being my guest.
Sharon Jaynes: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:38:21] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:39:20] We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. [00:40:22] We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 08, 2024
Monday Apr 08, 2024
230. Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
**Transcription Below**
Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood?
-
Do you have any counsel for us as we navigate the teen years, especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships?
-
If we do find ourselves in a child-centered family today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and our marriage?
Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.
He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.
Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow:
Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow
Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow:
87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow
Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow
Other Episode Recommended from The Savvy Sauce:
228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom
(When you get your Aro Box, use code SAVVY for 1 month off a prepaid annual membership & 2 months off a two year membership)
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: My guest, Dr. Rob Rienow, is returning to share wisdom, encouragement, and stories to help us lead our families with intention. He is such a fantastic guest that this is actually his third time back.
But before I get to his introduction, I want to share an update. A couple weeks ago, Joey Odom was my guest, and he was also sharing practical and intentional ways to parent, that time specifically related to technology. So I sure hope you don't miss that episode either.
Joey followed up to say, if our guests use the code Savvy at checkout for their own Aro Box at GoAro.com, then they're going to get one month off a prepaid annual membership or two months off a two-year membership. So I'll make sure and add all of those links in the show notes. But I just wanted to share my personal update with you on that. [00:01:18]
So as soon as I had heard about Aro, I instantly reached out to Joey to invite him to be my guest, even though we didn't own an Aro Box at that time. But after we recorded that episode, our Aro Box arrived and we put it to immediate use.
I have to say, we also reached immediate benefits. I was so excited that I had to share, because our hope for this podcast is to share joy. And we pray everyone listening applies the lessons that they've learned, so we can all experience a more abundant life, both now and forever more.
This usually comes through applying small changes after inspiration from our guests. So my application from that episode was to get an Aro Box and try it out. My husband and I have delighted in putting our phones in the Aro Box, and it's prompted some great conversation with our daughters already.
I thought that we had been pretty disciplined to keep our phones away when we were in the presence of others, but this actually revealed the gap between my perception and our reality. [00:02:27] Having our phones physically away immediately made me feel more focused and less distracted.
For those 15 minutes, the first time I used it, it was a time when our food had 15 minutes left in the oven. So rather than sending an email to our daughter's teacher or adding groceries to our online list, which are both things I had the urge to do during that time, I instead engaged with our daughter, Isla, in a game of keepy-uppy with a balloon in our kitchen. It was so fun, and it turned out to be the most memorable part of my day.
So let me know your thoughts and your experience as well, whether it's with your own Aro Box or with any other takeaway from The Savvy Sauce that you've applied in your own life. I would love to get the opportunity to someday share your stories on this podcast.
And now back to today. I found it so energizing to learn from Dr. Rob as he shared parenting wisdom and even his most influential keystone habit that positively impacted his family life. [00:03:35] It is a universal concept that would seemingly benefit every one of us listening, so make sure you don't miss this recommendation.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to the Savvy Sauce, Rob.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Thank you, Laura. I've been looking forward to reconnecting with you.
Laura Dugger: Will you just start us off by sharing why intentional parenting and grandparenting is so important to you?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned grandparenting because we are in that world now. Our daughter, Lissy, just had her second child, a Christmas baby. His name is Ernest, and so he's just two, three months old now. And their daughter, Avie, is coming up on two this summer.
As I shared with you before, we've been blessed with seven kids, ages 26 down to 10. So this question of intentional parenting and grandparenting is really at the heart of our passion and calling. But it wasn't always that way. [00:04:38]
The first 10 years of Amy's and my married life, I was a youth pastor, and as a youth pastor, I was just completely focused on other people's kids. I was doing discipleship with other people's kids and praying with other people's kids and responding to crises in the lives of other families. And it was a great season of ministry, but I was neglecting my family. I was neglecting my children, especially spiritually.
I was not praying with my kids, was not reading the Bible with my kids, was not spiritually connected with Amy. I was very intentional at church and very intentional with other people's children, but not with mine. So that was the summer of 2004, that was about 20 years ago where God brought me to a place of repentance and brokenness, and as it says in Malachi 4 and Luke 1, turned my heart to the ministry of my kids and just convicted me that my ministry to them was my great calling. [00:05:41] Amy and I had to come together in our marriage for the purpose of doing everything we possibly could to point these kids to Christ.
Laura Dugger: Well, it's so helpful to hear your own experience because you have been through toddlers and adult children, so I'm very eager to hear your perspective. But let's just go through a few common phases of parenting, beginning with that initial transition into parenthood. So what encouragement do you have for parents with very young children in the home?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, well, I'm glad we're talking about these phases because it is a really difficult task that every parent struggles with. I've struggled with it tremendously to make the shifts in connecting with and leading and discipling children.
What I mean by that is that if you treat an elementary school kid like a toddler, there's going to be a mismatch. They're going to be exasperated with your baby talk and all this. [00:06:43] If you treat your high schooler like they're still in junior high, they're ready to spread their wings, have more independence, and have more voice, and they're going to feel exasperated. You're going to be restricting them. Same thing if you treat your college kid like they're still in high school or your married kid like they're still in college.
So we recognize that we've got to make these shifts. It's just really hard because we haven't done this before and we're learning as we go. But yeah, those first couple of years, I think a lot of things that Amy and I have learned through having seven kids, first of all, especially that first year. And I think about the need for mom to do everything that she can to recover from childbirth itself. But that's also emotional and spiritual in that year with that infant.
So kind of doing everything we can schedule-wise to say no to more things, to be more present in the home, to get our foundations deeper. [00:07:43] And for those that are married, as difficult as it is, there's so much attention on that little baby. But everything that you can do and Amy and I would not be like the model example of this. We realized after a lot of kids that we just had to do a whole lot better with everything you can do to take walks.
Amy and I were just having a conversation the other day about our bedtime routine. It used to be... we don't always watch TV every night, but back in the day, if we were going to watch TV, if we're going to watch the news or sports or a show, there's only one TV and you turn it on and you sit there for half an hour and you hold hands and you watch whatever it is.
I'm not saying that's the best use of time, but at least we're doing the same thing. Now there's a tendency that, well, she's got a little screen, right? She's got her phone. I've got a little screen. I've got my phone. So maybe we're in bed and she's watching something and I'm watching something and we're in bed together. But that's really not connecting us at all. [00:08:39] And not that watching the same show was this great marriage-unifying thing, but we're even more separate because of the gizmos.
So just really paying attention to that first year of saying, Okay, we need to double down on some marriage investment. We need to slow down, say no to as much as we can outside the house. And then this will be a common theme in our conversation. But be sure, be sure, be sure to start. Let's say it's your first baby to start your family Bible reading while that child is an infant.
And people will say, Okay, what in the world are we doing? My three month old is not going to be learning anything from Bible reading. I agree. They're not, quote-unquote, "learning anything" certainly not academically. But starting your family Bible reading then in your family prayer time then is so important.
Number one, I do think that spiritual things are happening in the heart of the child, that God's word is functioning on a spiritual level. But even equally important, it's building in the practice of family prayer and family Bible, because what most couples do, and this is what Amy and I did... and this goes all the way back. Let's say a Christian couple is dating and they think, well, it's really important for us to pray together and have a spiritual relationship. [00:09:55]
So, well, life's crazy. Well, when we get engaged, we'll start praying together. Well, they get engaged and they don't start praying together. Then they said, well, when we get married, then we'll pray together, we'll live together, we'll have nothing else to do but to pray and read our Bible together. So then we'll do that.
Well, they get married and life's crazy and they're not praying together then. And then they say, well, we'll pray together when we have kids and kids come. Well, you get the picture. It's always later, later, later. So getting your habit of family prayer and family Bible when that baby's an infant is super, super important.
Laura Dugger: I love that because then sometimes it's a little bit more effort on the front end to establish a new habit. But once you have that going, it's like brushing your teeth, something that you don't even think about. It's just a part of your daily life. As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Whoa, that's a feisty question. [00:10:54] Well, you're asking the question for the obvious observation and reason that the sport culture really has gone crazy in our culture, particularly the travel sports, because when we were growing up, there was park district sports for elementary school kids.
And if you wanted to play baseball or basketball or soccer or softball, you signed up at the park district like all the other kids in town and it cost a minimal amount of money. And there was one practice and one game a week and all of that.
Well, now there's this pressure to get your kids into travel sports and to do that very early, five, six, seven, eight years old, because if your 7-year-old is not on elite gold travel soccer, then they're not going to be seen by the 9-year-old scouts. Right. Because the 9-year-old scouts are looking at the seven you elite gold platinum travel team. [00:11:53]
And if they're not on the nine you team, well, then they're not going to be seen by the eleven you scouts. And if they're not seen by the eleven you scout, what you risk, of course, is you risk your child missing out on the pinnacle of all of human existence, which is high school varsity athletics. Obviously, tongue in cheek there a little.
So the problem is... we love sports in our family. All of our kids who have wanted to play sports have played sports. My eldest son played baseball all the way through college. My next son played basketball all the way through college.
I've coached tons of baseball. I'm coaching baseball right now. So I ran the math, Laura. I think this is my 41st baseball season as a father this year. Forty-first. Seventeen seasons with my first son, thirteen seasons of baseball with my next, that makes 30, and then seven seasons with my third son. And then this is the fourth with my fourth son. I can't even keep track.
Now, I haven't coached all that. Baseball is a horrible game. [00:12:53] Nobody should play it because it's the worst game on the emotions for children. Kids cry multiple times during a single baseball game. Kids don't cry during soccer. There's no crying. Maybe if they lose. Baseball is the worst.
Okay, back to our conversation. There's this incredible pressure to spend tons of money and tons of time very early for sports because of this pressure or this ideal that in order for them to have this pinnacle experience in high school or gosh, I want my kid to play. I want my kid to get a college scholarship, even though that's 0.001% of expectations that should be there.
One of the interesting studies that came about... this was back in... a few years ago, they looked at sixth graders and they looked at who were the elite athletes in sixth grade and they tracked them through high school to find out what the correlation would be between the elite sixth graders and the elite twelfth graders. [00:13:52]
And they found out that there was very little correlation between the top of the food chain in sixth grade and the top of the food chain in twelfth grade. The reason for that is because of the massive changes that occur in the kid's body. Some of those sixth graders, I'm talking boy sports now, some of those sixth graders had like full beards because they had pit puberty and they're destroying the little mouse like other boys in there who had not quite caught up. Some of the kids had totally dropped out of sports. Other kids are late bloomers. So this whole idea that your kid has to be the superstar in elementary school in order to excel later just isn't true.
There's also massive financial mistakes that families make. ESPN did this thing where they took a family who did travel sports right from early elementary school and they added up all the costs of travel sports. And let's say that kid did get a college scholarship. On average, the scholarship that the kid received was 50% of the total amount the family had spent on travel sports, just getting them to get that scholarship. [00:14:54]
Laura Dugger: Wow.
Dr. Rob Rienow: I hope you didn't hear this. I'm not anti-sport. I've had two college athletes, lots of fun. The other thing for bigger families, it's oftentimes the oldest child that is getting all this investment. They're doing like weekends in hotels with dragging other children around and having them miss out on opportunities and things. So it can get totally out of whack.
Here's what we have tried to do and what we encourage families to do. Try to do park district sports through elementary school. Try to just stick with that, have them enjoy it, have them be a multi-sport athlete. If they're a super sports kid, one sport per season.
Then if your child is super interested in high school sports and you want them to have a tune-up in junior high, then do the travel in junior high to prepare them for high school. And I know. I've had this conversation with a bazillion dads and moms, and I already know what they're saying. [00:15:53] "It's too late for them to do travel in junior high. They will fall behind. They'll never be caught up." Okay, I just don't buy it. If that's what you think, that's what you think. And you may be right. But that's the way we've approached it.
Laura Dugger: I love that because I think as you're even sharing, I'm processing and thinking it's like everything else that we're seeking the Lord for wisdom in life where the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us and give us wisdom as we need it. And I think that's such a practical way to go, because I guess my grief is... I agree. We love sports in our family and our daughters have enjoyed it. But also when we've taken time off, we've noticed levels of peace and enjoyment that they have in playing outside more and being with neighborhood kids and just having time for hospitality where I've noticed our relationships are usually at a deeper level, especially when we're in one another's homes, rather than more of the surface level that can come if we're rushing around to too many children's activities. [00:17:00]
Dr. Rob Rienow: Because the other piece of this has to do with Sundays. In a lot of these travel sports, you're going to have Sunday games, Sunday tournaments. That should create a significant concern for a Christian family. What we've seen a lot is families who, whenever there is a sport-church conflict, they choose the sport, and on the way to the sport, they give a little speech to the child.
So, "Hey, just because we're not in church today doesn't mean church isn't important and just wanted you to know that." Well, if every time sports and church collide for your family, you choose the sport, your speech means nothing to your child. You are telling your child what is more important to you. They don't pick their schedule, you pick their schedule. They don't sign up for stuff, you sign them up for stuff. So you are making the decision that if there is an ask at the sport and that conflicts with your calling at church, you choose the sport. [00:18:08]
I'll tell you a story. We did everything we could to avoid sports on Sunday. I don't think playing sports on Sunday is a sin, but the Bible spends so much time talking about the importance of Sabbath. And so we said, well, this is really a day that we want to try to guard.
So my eldest son, this was the boy who played baseball through college, he was in fifth grade playing Park District baseball and his team made the championship game. This is a big deal. And it's Saturday morning championship and a game gets rained out and rescheduled for Sunday morning, 10 a.m.
This was in our family's life, our first sports church conflict. So man, I was really struggling. Now, I wasn't preaching that particular day, so I'm like, All right, maybe we could go to the 8 a.m. service and then we could hustle over to the game and kind of do both.
As a family, we were praying and we looked at Exodus chapter 20 and we looked at this scripture, Isaiah 58, which I'll share in a moment. [00:19:07] And I was, again, struggling with this. But my son, my 10-year-old boy, he basically said, you know what? If I play in the game, then Sunday is just like any other day. And Sunday's not any other day. So I'm not going to play. I don't want to play. And I was like, "Oh, man, are you sure, little buddy?" I mean, this is a big game.
He was kind of more convicted about it than me, so obviously we deferred to his conviction. So he said, "Well, what I want to do is I want to go to church and have our normal morning. And then I just want to go over to the game. We can go late. I won't play. I'll just be on the sideline." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are in Zambia on a mission trip. That's where we are. Or you broke your arm. Because we had no interest in making any sort of public statement or we don't play sports on the Sabbath. And none of that. It's just a personal decision.
So he's like, "What's the problem? Why can't we go?" All right. Let's go. So we get over there midway through the game and all his teammates were all cool. [00:20:08] His coaches were all cool. But this dad comes up to me. Now, this is just a little background. This dad was a... all right, let's say the umpire makes a bad call and the proper response is for someone to shout profanity at the umpire. This guy would take care of that responsibility from the sideline. So do you know who we're talking about here? It's that guy.
Laura Dugger: Tracking with you.
Dr. Rob Rienow: So he comes over to me and says, "Hey, Rob, I see RW is not playing today. What's going on?" "Well, we don't play sports on the Sabbath, sir." No, I did not say that. I just, you know, tried to dig a little humble hole. Well, actually, I blamed RW. He didn't want to play. No, I didn't throw him under the bus either. I just tried to explain, "Well, Sunday for our family and decided not to play and not try to judge anybody."
And he says, "Well, Rob, you know I'm not much of a religious guy." I'm like, "Yes, I'm aware." And he said, "Well, but my respect for your family just went up four times." And he walks off. [00:21:08] And I'm like, "What in the world just happened?"
A year later, we're back on the same team with this family. Amy drops RW off for practice and this guy comes up to Amy first day of practice next year. He says, "Amy, Amy, hey, I just want you to know I haven't forgotten what your son did last year and made a difference in my life. Unbelievable."
This scripture, listen to this. This is Isaiah chapter 58. "If you turn your foot back from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and you call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable. If you honor it, not by going your own ways, then you shall take delight in the Lord and I'll make you ride on the heights of the earth. I'll feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
So RW, he learned so much from that. And so every team he played on after that, before the season, he would say, "Hey, if there's Sunday games, is it okay if I'm not there?" And the coaches were like, "Yeah, that's no problem." So all the way through high school, all the way through a college career, never had to play a game on Sunday. [00:22:10] And the Lord really blessed him with that.
Again, here's my point. I'm not saying playing sports on Sunday's a sin. I'm saying Sunday's a big deal and it ought to be a big deal for Christian families.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible.
They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Leman's". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. [00:23:09]
I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.
Learn more at their website, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: Whatever decision we're facing, James 1:5 says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." And I think the way that you all sought after the Lord, He clearly guided you and then had greater purposes for that, because we never know what He's going to say unless we ask. [00:24:11]
As we move along to the next phase, do you have any counsel for us as we navigate those teen years? I'm thinking especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, the first thing to do is to set proper expectations for the teen years for your child's growth and development. So, Laura, what I expect from my teenagers, I've got a 16-year-old girl and a 14-year-old boy right now. What I expect from them is that every month, every week, every year, they will become more mature, more godly, more responsible, more honoring, more diligent.
So if we were to graph them from the ages of 10 to 20, just draw a typical graph, the line would be going up and to the right. Nice straight line up and to the right. [00:25:11]
So then my next question is, Laura, I'll ask you, was that your graph from 10 to 20? Would you say from the ages of 10 to 20, every year, every month, every week, I just got a little better?
Laura Dugger: No.
Dr. Rob Rienow: No. And if I put that graph in front of a thousand parents and I said, how many of you had this graph, not a single person would raise their hand. Every single teenager goes through tons of ups and downs, right? Good months, bad months; good years, bad years; struggles, advancement, one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back.
So if your expectation is that your teenager is just going to slowly, steadily, predictably, continually, just get better and better, more and more faithful, more and more responsible, more and more godly, all those things, you're in for a tremendous, tremendous disappointment. So it helps us a lot just to recognize that there's no clean, pure path through these teen years. [00:26:11]
You asked about technology, you asked about friendships and relationships, and that would be the case there. Gosh, I really want my kids to make perfect and holy decisions throughout their teen years regarding technology and social media and online junk and boundaries and all that. If that's your expectation, things are going to blow up very, very badly. So we have to expect our kids are going to struggle, expect that they're falling short.
So the big win, what do we need, what are the most essential ingredients to get through the teen years? The big win or the most essential ingredient is what I want to call heart connection. It's rooted in Malachi 4 and Luke 1 where it talks about the work of the Holy Spirit turning the hearts of fathers, turning the hearts of parents to their kids, and the hearts of kids to their parents. It's also in Proverbs 23:26. Solomon is writing to his son there and he uses this incredible phrase. He says, "My son, give me your heart and let your eyes observe my ways." Give me your heart. [00:27:11]
In other words, "Let me into your life. I want you to share everything that's going on with me. You be an open book, totally honest, totally transparent." And that really is where the battle for the teen years is, is, will the parent lovingly, persistently, consistently pursue the heart of the teenager and will the teenager give their heart to their mom or their dad?
In other words, will we walk through these very difficult years together or will we walk through them separate? This is especially true in areas of relationships, sexuality, secret sins. My generation growing up, I mean, when it came to like boy-girl relationships, romantic relationships, sexual relationships, I mean, really the only rule for all that was you did not talk to your parents about it.
Maybe you're a Christian, maybe you talk to your youth pastor about it or Christian friends, but you would not go to your parents and say, "Hey, I really think... Me, as a boy, I would not go to my mom and say, "Hey, there's this girl at church, I really think she's kind of pretty, and when thinking about asking her out." [00:28:19] I would never talk to my mom about that. That'd be crazy.
So kids are going through and dealing with a lot of really big stuff that the world says, well, you want to make sure you don't talk to your parents about that.
So the task of building heart connection is the number one task because discipleship, any spiritual impact that you're gonna have, and my daughter, Lissy, she's got an incredible book on this called The Heart of Your Teen, but she has this phrase that any spiritual discipleship with your teenager is gonna first come through relationship. So if you don't have this heart-connected relationship with your teenager, you really don't have heart influence with them. There's a lot we could talk about there.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm just processing because just personally, we're not quite there yet and so I'm recognizing that what we've done in the past doesn't work always in the future. I'll just share a personal example and see what your take is on this.
So currently, with our daughters, there are two times that we especially get to deeper heart issues and topics together and that is whenever we can steal away one-on-one time. [00:29:28] I guess that is the only way, but the way that it plays out for us is bedtime one-on-one with each parent and then we have scheduled one-on-one dates. And there is just something so special about... I mean, ideally we're relationally building in all aspects of life, but those times really are when they open up. Is that your experience with your teens as well or were there any other practical ways that you cultivated the relationship with them at that phase?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, no, I think you're right on the money. You know, there's this old quality time versus quantity time, but quantity time is what gives you the chance for quality time. I had the blessing with my work with Visionary Family Ministries of being able to travel a couple of weekends a month to do our conferences, Visionary Parenting and Visionary Marriage conferences and so I'd always take one of the kids with me.
So we had this built-in opportunity for travel and fun and doing these events together and the heart connection that was formed there was so significant. [00:30:33] And even just yesterday, my daughter in college... we have nicknames for all of our kids and her nickname is Boots.
So we have this thing called a BWB, which is Breakfast with Boots. I say, "Hey, can we do a BWB?" That means her and me, breakfast. And she just texted me yesterday from school. She's like an hour and a half away, right? She's like, "I need a BWB." And I love that because it was an indicator to me of our heart connection. It's not every time we're together and having breakfast, we're talking about deep, gory, personal things, but it creates the warmth.
So people ask, what is heart connection? Heart connection is warmth, closeness, openness, honesty, and trust. The default setting is not heart connection. The default setting for parents of teenagers, parents will say to me, Gosh, I feel like when I'm talking to my teenager, I'm talking to the wall. I'm like, Well, why do you think that? And they're like, "Because I am." And I'm like, "Ding, ding, ding, you are. Like that spider-sense that you have of you are not getting through here is absolutely right. [00:31:43] And you can see it in their body language.
So parents will be like, I'm going to continue my speech or I'm going to talk louder. Well, you're totally wasting your time because you are talking to the wall. There's relationship stuff that has to get rebuilt before they're going to lower the guard of their heart to be able to listen to what you have to say.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. It seems like you've built in intentional practices throughout different phases. Even, I'm reminded, it was in one of our previous episodes. So I'll link to all of them in the show notes. But where you really emphasize how Deuteronomy talks about these built-in supernatural times that God has blessed with that definition that you just gave with the warmth. Do you want to share anything about that as well?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, let me tell a story about it. This had to do with my son, JD. He's 22, he's getting married this summer. But from the ages of 13, 14, 15, our relationship was not good. [00:32:43] Now, I had spent a lot of time with him when he was younger. I think I still was maybe coaching a little bit of his baseball. But when I was around, I oftentimes found him to be cold or bristly or just sort of annoyed. So, Amy was trying to help me with that, trying to diagnose what's happening here. Is there some element of just father-son angst and growing into manhood and stuff?
Finally... it was funny. I have a book called Five Reasons for Spiritual Apathy in Teens. That's what I felt like I was dealing with with JD. And I'm like, "Well, I should do the stuff that I write about in the book." So it's kind of desperate times. One of the things we encourage parents to do if you feel like your child is hard-hearted toward you, it's to ask them, "Have I done anything to hurt you?"
So I went to JD and I said, "Hey, JD, have I done anything to hurt you? Because sometimes when I'm around, it kind of feels like you don't want me around and you seem kind of annoyed." [00:33:47] And he said, "Dad, no, you have not done anything to hurt me. You're a wonderful father. You write books on parenting. You're great." No, that is not what he said. He said, "Yeah, you have." And I'm like, "Well, can you tell me about it?"
It was fascinating what he said. He said, "When you talk to me..." he's 14 years old. He says, "When you talk to me, you talk to me more like my 8-year-old brother, Ray. And I want you to talk to me more like my 18-year-old brother, RW." So he's 14 and he's transitioning from childhood to adulthood. Basically, he said, you're treating me like a little kid. You talk to me still like I'm a little kid. You parent me still like I'm a little kid. You use a tone of voice with me like I'm a little kid.
And he was looking and watching how I talked to RW. And I know we'll talk about that in a minute of how to transition into the adult years. But he was looking at the respect with which I talked to his older brother, the man-to-man relationship I had with his older brother. [00:34:47] He's like, "I want that." And he was exactly right. 100% right.
What I had been doing is what Ephesians 6:4 says not to do. Fathers do not exasperate your children. I was disrespecting him. I was treating him like a little kid and he wasn't a little kid anymore.
So I had to ask his forgiveness and confess that to him, acknowledge he was absolutely right. And then ask him to help me because I wasn't doing it on purpose. I just had this massive blind spot to how I was relating to him and how I was exasperating him. So I had to say, "Look, JD., I'm very committed to learning a new way of connecting with you, but I'm gonna need your help. So when I do this... I wish I could just say, I'll never do it again, but I'm probably gonna do it again. So when I do it again, I need you to help me, remind me, you try to be respectful and honoring, and I'll try to make these changes."
And really that was the start of a significant turnaround in our relationship. He moved out. I'm so terrible with time, Laura. Okay, this is spring 2024. He graduated college and moved out in summer 2023. [00:35:52] And I remember, you know, the driveway conversation with your child leaving the home for real is always a big one. And JD said to me, he said, "Dad, our relationship's never been better." And I just was so thankful. It was not a straight line, still not a straight line, but God really helped us through a tough time.
Laura Dugger: And what was sown in humility was reaped with gratitude. I love that. I think that's a great foundation is to begin with humility.
How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
You kind of alluded to it, but that next big transition for parents is the move to now parenting adults and possibly becoming empty nesters. So what do you want to make sure we don't miss here? [00:37:02]
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, we've got to, first of all, talk about it. We actually have to talk about all these transitions with our kids because they're making difficult transitions as well. So when your kid's 18, if they're getting ready to get to work or get to school, we need to talk about it. We need to talk about the task of these 18 to 22 years, which fundamentally is shifting the parent-child relationship from parent-child to adult to adult.
I'll pick on my oldest son as an example. So he's getting ready to go off to school, so we had to have a conversation. RW, during 18 to 22, we have to shift our relationship from father-son to man-to-man." Now, I will always be your dad. You'll always be my son. But I don't want that to be the template of how you and I relate to each other for the rest of our lives. Once you're an independent adult and you're off the payroll, that's very important, you're no longer dependent on me. The template for us should be brother in Christ. And we are side-by-side. [00:38:05] It doesn't eradicate our father-son relationship, but the man-to-man is the priority.
So we talked about it and we said, "Okay, you're 18, what would we have to do over the next four years to shift this? And the things we talked about, well, I, dad, I'm gonna have to treat you more like a man. I can't treat you like a kid anymore." RW's like, "Well, I have to act more like a man. I can't act like a kid anymore."
Then we talked about, "Well, what can we do to build this sort of brother-in-Christ relationship?" Like if we were just brothers in Christ, what would we do? RW said, "Well, I guess we'd pray for each other. I mean, that's what Christian friends would do." I'm like, "All right. So while you're at school, when you need prayer, you text me. When I need prayer, I'm gonna text you. We're gonna become prayer partners."
So let's say Amy and I are having a difficult marriage day, I will zip a text to RW, "Hey, mom and I are having a tough marriage day to day. Could you please pray for softening of our hearts and healing for this conflict?" [00:39:06] And I've had some friends tell me as I've like shared that example, they're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're telling your kids about your marriage problems." I'm like, "Well, I mean, he lived with us for 18 years. He's not under any illusion and his parents have it all together. So I'm not like bursting any bubble on his side.
And as I thought about it more, I'm like, "Who could be a safer person for me to share something deeply personal than my son? He's not gonna reject me. He's not gonna turn his back on me or shame me. He's with me no matter what. So even just that basic exchange of prayer requests has been very transformational for us. But I want to emphasize just simply the need to talk as a family about the transition and to talk about how everybody needs to play a role in making it.
Laura Dugger: Any specific ways to start that conversation or any questions that you recommend we ask?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah. [00:40:04] I think sometimes it's helpful to start off to see if your goal is the same. I'll give you an example in linking back in maybe to the teen years. We're talking about dating and relationships, etc.
So let's say that we've got a daughter. She's starting to get interested in boys and she wants to go to this dance and she's got this boy wants to be her boyfriend, etc., etc. So obviously we want heart connection, we want communication, but it's really helpful to see if our goals are the same.
"So, honey, let me ask you a question. Is it your goal in the future? Would you want to get married someday? If you had a magic wand, would you..." "Oh yeah, I want to get married." "Do you want to marry a godly, wonderful husband?" "Yeah." "Do you want to have a Christian marriage that honors God?" "Yeah, I want to have a Christian marriage." "Do you want to have kids and raise children to love Jesus and they're gonna tell your grandchildren to love Jesus?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I want all that stuff." "Okay, so you want a thriving Christian family, is that? Are you saying that's what you want, honey?" "Yeah, mom, yeah, that's what I want." "Okay, well guess what? I want the exact same thing. So do you know like our end goal is identical right now? You want exactly what I want and I want exactly what you want. So, therefore, how about you and I do this path together? Like if we're going to the same place and you want what I want and I want what you want, doesn't it make sense for us to work on this together, talk together, pray together?" And most teenagers will be like, "Yeah, I guess that does make kind of sense if we're trying to go the same direction." [00:41:33]
Now, if you want to go different directions, you have another, right, another challenge and another conversation to have. But that's a lot of what we can do with our adult kids.
They're 18, they're getting ready to work, they're getting ready to leave the house or they're leaving college and they're getting independent. "Hey, can I just want to talk about sort of our future? Can we talk about what our relationship might look like when you're 25?" "Let me tell you what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping that we have a warm, close relationship. I'm hoping that you're following Jesus and I'm following Jesus. I'm hoping that we're free and able to talk about things, disagree about things. I'm hoping that we're able to support each other and pray for each other and we have a wonderful adult-to-adult relationship. What do you think about all that?"
And hopefully your child says, "Yeah, that sounds good to me." "Great, all right, how are we gonna get there? How are we gonna make this transition from parent-child to adult-to-adult?" And you bring them in on the brainstorming.
Laura Dugger: What child would not appreciate that level of respect? [00:42:30] I think they would tend to rise up to it. So whether it's from your children's perspective or with you and Amy, when your family looks back, what efforts in parenting would you say have made the greatest relational impact throughout all these stages?
Dr. Rob Rienow: The practice that has been the most essential is the one that was absent for me for so many years, like the first 10 years of our marriage was absent, but it was that practice of family worship. And by family worship, we mean that time of family prayer and family Bible reading, family singing when we can. I don't mean to weird people out about singing, but at least family prayer and family Bible reading and the discussion that connects to that.
No question at all that that core practice became the engine that powers the family emotionally and spiritually. [00:43:30] And the driver for that, the driver for family worship has become less about discipline.
In other words, it's very important for us to be disciplined and do all these things. That the driver being neediness, of my own spiritual neediness, my own need to be in prayer with my family, my own need to be in scripture with my family. So we have a family worship room in our house. Every room in the house has a name. So there's bed rooms, because you go to bed there. You have a playroom, because you play there and a dining room, because you dine there. You name the different rooms in your house.
So we have a family worship room and we name it that because that's the most important activity that happens in that room. In the middle of the room is our prayer table. It's actually a coffee table. And then there are two couches and a couple of tables with lamps on them. So coffee table, couches, lamps. Laura, what do normal humans call the room?
Laura Dugger: Probably the living room.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, living room, family room, parlor. [00:44:30] I was in Georgia, a woman said, "That's the parlor." I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about. It's the living room." But yeah, we don't call it the living room. We call it the family worship room because that's the most important thing that happens in the room.
We were moving... This was 10 years ago now. So my daughter Lainey, who's 20, she was 10. We were moving and so we were looking at different houses to rent or to buy and we're with a real estate agent visiting different houses. And on two different occasions, I had the same exact thing happen. So it really burned into my memory and I'm thankful for that.
Lainey is my eager beaver girl. She wants to go first. She wants to be in there. So we get to this house and the real estate agent opens the front door and Lainey jumps into the entryway of the house and I'm third in line. So I'm coming in next. And I see Lainey quickly look left and look right and then she points to her right. She points to this room, she goes, "Dad, dad, this could be the family worship room." [00:45:32] And she was so excited to find this room.
And it impacted my heart so deeply. And I'm like, "Why in the world is a 10-year-old girl trying to... why is she so excited about finding the family worship room in this new house? It struck me that she understood at this really young age that this spiritual meal for our family, these few moments of family prayer, few moments of family Bible, this really was the engine that powered our family. This was the meal that kept us spiritually strong and created an environment for us to confess our sins to each other and to receive forgiveness from one another. So even at 10, she just knew like, if we don't have that, we're in real trouble.
Laura Dugger: That's such an encouragement for each of us. I think if there's one practical takeaway that that is something we can leverage one of those ideas with, not minimal effort, but not that much effort to yield maximum results and enjoyment. [00:46:37]
This next question, I'm curious, how can we recognize if we are drifting toward becoming a child-centered family? And then the other part is, if we do find ourselves in that place today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and for our marriage?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, it's a great phrase, this child-centered family. It's a new-ish phrase in the psychology world and in the family ministry world. Last couple of decades, people have been talking about it. There's good reason to warn against that. In other words, certainly warning against this idea that a child's whims and wishes determine everything. Like the child decides what we have for dinner. The child decides our activities for the weekend. The child decides whatever decisions the family making. That can be incredibly destructive. [00:47:36]
I think sometimes, as people use that phrase, well, if it's not child-centered, well, what is it? And they say, well, I don't know. And then a lot of people say, well, I guess parent-centered. In other words, that parents should be driving the ship. And I certainly agree that parents should be the leaders of the home without question. But ultimately, what we're talking about is building a God-centered family, right? A Christ-centered family. That our hearts and our mission and our purpose and our budget are focused on Him.
One area that Amy and I experienced and spent quite a number of years struggling with... and this would have been from married years 20 to 24 especially. So we're coming up on 30 this summer. But that window around 20 years of marriage, we had read, with both of our backgrounds in ministry, and Amy's a marriage and family therapist, there used to be some teaching out there that year seven was like the difficult marriage year. [00:48:38] And if you could kind of get past year seven, then you're in pretty good shape, unlikely to get divorced, etc. Man, I think that's crazy now. We've had so many friends married into their 20s, divorced.
And Amy and I realized, again, right around that 20-year mark, we went into a colder, more distant season in our marriage. And as we began to recognize it and diagnose it, it was because we were pouring ourselves into parenting and we were pouring ourselves into the ministry. And those are two things we did very well.
In other words, when I say we did very well, we were very committed to working together as parents, and we enjoyed working together in Visionary Family Ministries. I should say it came easier to us to focus there. But we were not investing in just us. We slipped from date nights. We slipped from overnights. [00:49:37]
We slipped from taking walks together and just investing in us. And slowly but surely, we became more and more distant, more and more cold to one another, until we started realizing, hey, we are not feeling very close and connected. And if we don't start making some changes to double down on investing just in our marriage relationship, and Amy talks about it this way, in rebuilding our couple identity. Because we had a very strong family identity, we had a very strong ministry identity, but we were losing our couple identity. And we had to take some urgent action to deal with that.
The first thing it meant... we had started to pray together at the 13-year mark of our marriage. So first 13 years, we didn't pray together at all, which was a disastrous pattern. So we started praying together every night before bed. But then as we realized this disconnection, we said we needed to have a little prayer time every morning.
And that's not an hour prayer meeting, one or two minutes of prayer before we start our day. And then really starting to get back to marriage 101. Any premarital class is going to talk to you about the importance of a date night, whether it's monthly, whether it's weekly, just a regular date night. [00:50:50] And we're like, Oh, we don't need a date night. We spend a lot of time together. We parent together. We do our ministry trips together. Well, we really needed a date night. And I think every couple is different with their temperament.
But we find that we get a lot out of a night away, like a night at a hotel. So maybe a 24-hour mini retreat somewhere. Obviously, we can't do that every week. We can't do that every month. But if we can get two or three of those in a year, that goes a long way for us.
Laura Dugger: Again, I just appreciate the practicality. So thank you for sharing. And if we want to continue gleaning your wisdom after this conversation, where would you direct us to go online, Rob?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, after you finish listening to The Savvy Sauce podcast, come on over to Family Vision, which is our weekly podcast. You can find that on any podcast service. It's usually Amy and me in the studio sharing the things that God's teaching us and the areas that we're growing and encouragements for you just to be growing in your faith and family relationships. [00:51:54]
But you can find Visionary Family Ministries anywhere online, any social media page or our website, visionaryfam.com, and at our shop page on our website, all the books we've been talking about today, Healing Family Relationships, The Heart Of Your Teen, Visionary Parenting, Visionary Marriage. And there's going to be just this continual theme running through all of our resources, which is first just starting with God's word, His love for us. He loves your family. He hasn't brought you this far to abandon you. And then what are some biblical principles, biblical action steps that we can take to grow in faith and strengthen our homes?
Laura Dugger: I love it. Well, I can attest that our family and our church have greatly benefited from multiple resources of yours. So with delight, I will link to all of those in the show notes.
And Rob, you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:52:53] And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, the first scripture that comes to mind from our conversation today is Jesus's instruction in Matthew 6:33. So the savvy sauce is seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you as well. So we're talking about parenting. We're talking about marriage.
We're talking about family. At the end of the day, it starts with each one of us just seeking first his kingdom, his righteousness, our personal walk with Christ, and then asking his spirit then to overflow into all of our family relationships.
Laura Dugger: Yes and amen, brother. It has, again, just been a sincere joy to learn from you. So you've blessed us many times on this podcast.
And Rob, I am continually grateful. So thank you for being my guest again today.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Thanks, Laura. I love it. Appreciate your ministry.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:53:56] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:55:01]
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. [00:56:04] I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 01, 2024
Monday Apr 01, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes thematic material and may be triggering. It is only intended for mature audiences and those who are not triggered by graphic sexual content.
229. Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 5:8-14 (NIV) For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
Rachel Timothy was only nine years old when she was first approached by a perpetrator who was known to her as a teacher and coach. In her books, she goes into detail of the process of being groomed and how the evil of what was happening to her in the dark remained unseen by everyone around her. She describes how she coped for so many years by blocking out the memories only to have them resurface when she was an adult with a family of her own. Rachel had no idea that when she would pursue justice it would end up putting her right back in the world of trafficking. It wasn’t until her church family saw the signs and believed what she was saying that she was able to start the process of finding freedom. Rachel shows her faith and love of God during the highs and lows of her journey and she prays for each person who reads her story. That their eyes will be opened and their actions will lead us toward ending sex trafficking in our world.
Rachel's Books:
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
Will you share your story with us?
-
Will you close the loop on an update to today?
-
How can we recognize signs of trafficking in our children and in our community?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
Rachel Timothy is my guest today, and she was only nine years old when a perpetrator began grooming her for future evil plans. She's going to share her story with us today in hopes of opening our eyes to the reality of sex trafficking happening in our area and in our world.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Rachel.
Rachel Timothy: Laura, thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: Well, your story is not an easy one to share, but you write about it so that we will open blind eyes. [00:01:24] I would love for you just to begin telling us more about your childhood.
Rachel Timothy: My childhood, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it?
Laura Dugger: Absolutely.
Rachel Timothy: Yeah, so I grew up in a Christian family. My dad was a pastor, and so for my entire life, I've been a preacher's kid. When I was nine years old, we got switched to a different church. We moved to a new town, and it was a very small town. It was really a village.
But it was something that, for whatever reason, at nine years old, I saw it as an adventure. I was excited about it. I could ride my bike all around town and feel like I was big stuff. But I remember just the adventure side of it.
I was a tomboy. I was a people pleaser. I was very much a rule follower. And, I don't know, I was a happy kid. Going into school, so I was going into this new school that was going to be K through 8, and I was going into the fourth grade, and I remember being excited but nervous about making friends. [00:02:29]
So I remember walking to the cafeteria one day. And, again, I'm very much a rule follower, so I still vividly remember the rules of how you walk to the cafeteria. You know, right-hand side of the hallway, arm's length away from the person in front behind you. Like, no talking. But a teacher from across the hallway called out my name. I remember wondering if I was in trouble. You know, did I do something wrong? Did I break a rule?
I knew who the guy was. He was not my fourth-grade teacher. There were two fourth-grade classes in this K through 8 school. He was the other fourth-grade teacher. And I also knew that he was the girls' basketball coach for the fifth through eighth-grade girls' team at this school.
So I knew who he was. I knew he was a Christian. I knew he was an elder of a church. He seemed to be trusted and loved by everybody.
So he calls my name as I'm walking to the cafeteria, and I walk over to him, and I immediately realize he wasn't upset at anything I'd done. [00:03:32] He had a big smile on his face. He went on to say, "I'm so glad that your family moved here." He already knew so much about me. He knew where my dad was working, where we lived. He knew my brothers were athletes.
He started talking to me about basketball, which basketball was my love. He already knew that. He started talking to me about my cousin, who's a good basketball player and just started to take ownership of my heart in that moment.
As a kid, when you have a teacher show interest in you, it makes you feel special. And I remember being completely clueless as to this being a red flag, because if it would have stopped at that point, it was harmless. But really I went back home, I told my parents, "You'll never guess. You know, the girls' basketball coach is so excited that I'm here. He can't wait for me to play on his team." It made me feel like I had a place in this new town.
In that moment, now looking back, I see that was all grooming. [00:04:32] And it really began before he ever even had that first conversation with me. The homework that he did on me prior to that first conversation of knowing so much about me, knowing my heart, he obviously had watched me enough to know my personality, to know that I was a people pleaser and I was an easier target. That was really the beginning of the grooming process in my eyes.
From there, he began to pull me out of class pretty frequently. He would send another student over to my classroom with a note asking if I could come sit with him. My teachers almost always said yes, unless I was taking a test or something. Like, they allowed me to go over there.
And I remember his classroom, he always had the lights off. He always had the blinds shut, at least in my eyes. That's how I remember it. That's how most of the students remember his classroom. [00:05:29]
But I would go and I would sit behind his desk and we would talk about basketball. And he would just tell me how great he thinks I am. Like when I make it to the WNBA, you know, don't forget little old him. He just really made me feel important. Whether he had complimented me or not, the fact that a kid gets out of school, that's a special treatment that a kid wants to continue.
But I'd sit behind his desk. A lot of times he began to talk about my body. Like it switched from just basketball to then my body and muscles and getting stronger and all of it related to basketball and all of it seemed to be relevant since he's my basketball coach or will be. So he would feel my muscles if they were getting stronger and my back muscles and my thigh muscles.
I've always said I remember the first time that he touched me inappropriately. He had his hand on my back and it went up around and touched my chest. [00:06:29] I remember I jumped and tears immediately filled my eyes because I knew it was wrong. Like it felt wrong. I was not developed in any way, shape or form. You know, I was 9 years old, but it felt wrong. And his reaction to me was, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, you know, that was an accident. Why are you acting like a baby?" And I thought, "Oh my goodness, of course, it was an accident. Why am I acting like a baby?"
But as I go back now and I think about that time, and I've always said that was the first time he touched me inappropriately. And I want to like take that back because, no, the first time he ever touched me was the first time he touched me inappropriately because no 35-year-old man should be putting his hands on a nine-year-old girl. I think that's important for anybody to know.
After that happened, he began to start to talk about the secrets, that we need to be a secret. And it wasn't a threat towards me. In fact, because he had done such a good job grooming my heart, taking ownership of my heart in many ways, making it to where I felt like he loved me and that I needed to protect him, his secrets were if you tell anybody about us or tell anybody about that, he would lose his job, he would lose his wife, and I didn't want to hurt him. [00:07:46]
Eventually, he had a kid in this process, and he would say, "Or I would lose my kid." And I didn't want any of those bad things to happen to him, and I didn't want anything in our relationship to change.
So it wasn't much longer after that I remember he brought in one of his old yearbooks, and it was from when he would have been about my age, and he was showing me pictures of him. I remember him asking if I thought he was cute and asking if I would have been his girlfriend if we were the same age. And I said yes, and it seemed as if in that moment, like we did almost become girlfriend-boyfriend.
If you were to talk to my classmates now, they would say, Yeah, we knew you guys were boyfriend-girlfriend. It was almost out in the open, in some ways, our relationship. What's hard to stomach a little bit is because it was out in the open, you think as a kid, this must be okay. [00:08:45]
Teachers knew I was going there. Teachers knew I was behind his desk, that he was paying all this attention to me. It must be safe then. He must be safe. Otherwise, they surely wouldn't let a kid do that.
What I didn't know was there were teachers who saw it and reported it. And I had a teacher walk in when I was nine, and I was apparently... I don't remember her walking in, but she says she walked in, the lights were all off. I was sitting on his lap behind his desk. He had his arms around me and she went right away and told the superintendent. And he told her, "You don't need to worry about him. He's safe."
And it seemed like if she were to push it, she was not tenure. She didn't have a lot of years behind her yet. And so she didn't feel like it was something she could push. Granted, she has a lot of guilt towards that now that she knows the extent of what it all went to, but she didn't know that at the time. [00:09:44]
So he had showed me his yearbook. And I remember him saying, "Why don't you take this home?" I lived like two houses down from him. And he said, "Let's use this as a way for you to come over and see my house." So he kind of gave me the explanation that I could give my mom. And I asked, "Hey, can I return this book to my teacher?" And she said yes. So that Saturday I went over to his house to return that yearbook.
I remember the first time being in his house, all the lights were off. The blinds were shut. It was just that he doesn't like light, which is ironic. But he gave me a tour of the house. He was very nice, very cordial and everything, like got me a snack. He took me over to this little side part of his house where it was his music room, showed me his soundproof room. In a way, I felt like he was flirting.
Nothing happened when I was there that first time. Then we started to make more plans for me to go over to his house. [00:10:44] At this point, as I had said earlier, I would ride my bike all around town. That was pretty common back then. I mean, 30 years ago, like I would ride my bike for an hour, go back home, check-in, go ride my bike for a couple hours.
Or I would go over to a friend's house. And there'd be times when I would leave there early and walk over to his house. But it was all within like a few houses of each other.
The next time that I went to his house, he started talking about this great idea he had about we could make some extra money and I'd be able to get my parents a neat Christmas gift and he was going to help me do that. So he pulled out an envelope and it had all these pictures of kids, and he's like, "These kids, they make money off of these pictures and you're more beautiful than all these kids. It would be fun." He made it seem like a great idea. He made it seem like no big deal as well.
So I remember we walked back into his bedroom. He had three disposable cameras sitting on his dresser and he just began to take pictures of me and he was goofy and fun and I enjoyed it. [00:11:46] He made those silly photographer poses as he was doing it. And it seemed like no big deal.
Then we had a conversation about it at school however many days later and he said that he had gotten the pictures back and that they were good but that they could be better. I mean, I had no idea what that meant.
But the next time that I went to his house, he pulled out another envelope of pictures but this time the pictures were of kids and they didn't have any clothes on. And I distinctly remember the look in the eyes were just totally different between the first group of kids that I saw. It was not kids that I knew. I have no idea where he got these pictures.
I think he saw the reaction I had, the shock and he's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this is the beautiful way that God made them. There's nothing wrong with this." In fact, we're showing the beautiful way that God made you. And I was a preacher's kid and so anytime you throw God in the mix, that meant it was the right thing.
So when we went back in his bedroom again, he had disposable cameras, he put a sheet around me to start and then he proceeded to take pictures of me. [00:12:52] And he was not fun. It was not this joyful, like silly experience this time. It was very serious and it was scary in a way.
I remember I was the one who had remorse over it. Like I was the one that knew this was wrong. And I actually had a conversation with him. I was like, "I don't think we should be doing this." And he said, "But it was your idea." And then I started thinking back, "Maybe it was. Maybe I did want to do that."
With being a preacher's kid again, the shame aspect of this stuff was so heavy. And he added to it by saying, "Your family either they're not going to believe you or they're going to be so angry at you." And I believed him. So not only was the threat with, you know, not wanting to hurt him, now it was dealing with the shame that I had. And that kept me quiet.
I believe it was the next time that I was at his house, I was really shocked to see that he was not the only one there. [00:13:57] I was taken back into his bedroom and his brother was actually standing in the corner. He had a tripod set up with a camera, a video camera on it. Actually, his brother's wife was there as well. Immediately, it was just not the same atmosphere whatsoever as the fun person that I had originally got to know.
My coach went on to explain and show me what making love was. And it was all videotaped. And I remember him telling me that the Bible says that the two become one and so that I literally belonged to him. The woman that was there cleaned me up. She told me, you know, if there's blood in your underwear, you need to make sure you throw it away before your mom sees it.
There was just immediate darkness that came over my life. One of the… I call it a gift from God, and in many ways it is. And I think God designed our brains to shut off when things got too awful, especially as a kid when you couldn't handle it. [00:15:05] So I would disassociate. And literally, I would go to a place in my mind... It's not like I went to this field of flowers like all is well. I just don't have memory of it. It just was blacked out.
I remember hurting, I remember feeling a darkness but not having a reason to understand why. So those things that had just happened, I didn't have in the forefront of my mind. And so as time went on and I would go to his house and other men would show up, I mean, my understanding is they paid money to be able to have sex with me. It then proceeded to my fifth and sixth-grade year. Now I am on his basketball team and I'm still very much protective of him.
He played these mind games with me. I feel like in the beginning he took ownership of my heart. But through the process, he began to take ownership of my mind with these mind games. And he would be all about me some days and just love me to pieces. [00:16:04] And then some days act like I didn't even exist, would look through me, wouldn't talk to me, would ignore me.
I spent majority of my time at school wondering, how can I make him happy? Like I wasn't a normal kid anymore. I wasn't thinking about kid-like things. I was, how do I keep him happy? That was an ownership that I feel like he took hold of all my thoughts.
Then I feel like whenever he started to make me question, was it my idea, was this me wanting to do this? And then me like so badly wanting to make him happy that I would almost agreeingly do things. It was like an ownership of my soul. It was no longer me making those choices. It was him through me.
And so I feel like those pieces of ownership led to where then he had ownership of my body. And there was really nothing left in me to fight it. There was nothing that I could have said to anybody, for one, that would have made sense because I didn't remember the whole grasp of it. [00:17:06]
But two, he had all of this hold on me. If somebody would have sat down with me and said, Is anybody hurting you? I would have said no.
But if somebody would have said, and this is what I tell people all the time when it comes to kids who you're wondering, is there something going on? Ask them, "Who makes you feel special? Who gives you special attention? Who do you spend time with the most?"
Because if somebody would have asked me that, I would have had so much fun telling you about my coach. You wouldn't believe how much he cares about me and that he thinks I'm going to be the greatest WNBA player ever. That would have given you an indication that there is a weird dynamic between a grown man and a little girl that shouldn't be there.
Laura Dugger: And then even to follow up, you did try to escape one time because it was such a slow, long, strategic on his part process.
Rachel Timothy: Yes.
Laura Dugger: You said that there were certain times that you had these red flags, but he would mess with your mind. [00:18:11] But also when you tried to get away, that did not work either as he was progressing this into bringing others in.
Rachel Timothy: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Is that right?
Rachel Timothy: Yes. So there was a point where he had brought in another... it was actually another teacher from my school. It was really confusing to me because he was the next person that came in and I was just taught that we made love and I belong to him. So now there's a new man showing up and I was supposed to "make love", quote-unquote, to this man. And I didn't want to. Like I wanted nothing to do with this horrible, ugly man. And I did try to run and I got stopped at the door and I was actually told either you will make love to this man or you will make love to a knife. And it was, I mean, obviously what choice I made. And it wasn't a choice. That's not a choice. But things got really, really dark, too dark for a kid to be able to comprehend.
So then here I am fifth grade and I was on his basketball team and I was a pretty doggone good basketball player. [00:19:16] So one day at the beginning of school, which it was not uncommon, he would pull me out of this entire gymnasium full of kids, he would pull me out and talk with me down on the gym floor. And he was doing this again.
At this point he had said, you know, you get to practice up with the high school tonight. Like instead of practicing with us, you're going to get to practice with the high school. I'm going to have a car pick you up and take you over there. There was no time for me to go home and say, "Hey, guess what, Mom and Dad, this is what I get to do." Like I was told in the morning, this is what's going to happen in the afternoon.
And so practice came and I was so excited. I remember going to practice and then him showing me, "Go out that door, there's a car waiting for you." And I went out there and it was my coach's car, but it was his brother standing next to it. And I knew at that point I was not going to practice.
My coach, he was the one who really was like the grooming and the pulling on my heartstrings and all that. His brother was mean and I was terrified of him. [00:20:17] He was big and ugly and just super, super mean.
So what he said I did out of fear. When he said, get on the floor of the backseat of the car and don't look at where we're going, I did it. We probably drove maybe five minutes, but with it being such a small town, we were in the country by the time we got to our destination.
I was taken out of the car and we were at this country house. It looked like an absolutely normal little white country house. This ended up being a place where I was taken often, often enough. I couldn't even tell you the exact number of times just because it all kind of begins to flow together. But I would be taken there and I would be put in a room and men would pay money and I would see the money exchanged.
And then they would come into the room where I was and have a certain amount of time with me. I would then be taken back to the school, I would go into the bathroom and I would clean myself up and I would go right back to this acting like everything was fine. [00:21:24]
And really like to the point where I believed everything was fine. I could disassociate, shut down when the awful evil things were happening, and come back to the school and clean myself up and just be a different person. I mean, I smiled a lot in the beginning. I never struggled with my grades, really. I had friends like those type of signs were there in the beginning because I believe of the dissociation.
Now, this went on through my fifth and sixth-grade year for whatever reason. I don't know if it's because I was developing, I was no longer a kid and that was more of the desire. But by my sixth-grade year, when that was over, I don't believe I went back to the White House, that little White House after that.
But my sixth-grade year is when a lot of the signs started to show up behaviorally, emotionally. I hurt so bad and I couldn't tell you why. I would have flashes of different men standing over me. And that didn't make sense to me. [00:22:27] I saw images of a place that I don't remember going to, but it was all just little bits and pieces. And my heart hurt so bad. My heart and my gut is where I carried most of my pain.
I began to cut. I began to have suicidal thoughts. And I did share that with some people. I tried to cut my wrist at school one day and I remember being taken to the principal's office and getting the nurse and all of that and them calling my parents in. My mom, I think, was the only one that was there. And I remember being told I was seeking attention. I was attention-seeking. And I got in trouble for it. So nothing was dealt with. I was just this preacher's kid that wanted attention. And I heard that time and time again.
So my 7th grade year then... behaviors were still going on as far as I was not okay. And then my 7th grade year, I was able to put enough together in my mind to know I had been raped at some point. [00:23:32] And I had an image of a man from the neighborhood, from the area and I was putting enough together where I was able to say, not in like great detail, but I'm pretty sure I was raped by this man.
And so I told friends. That was a safe place for me. I told some friends and they told teachers. They did a great job. They did what kids should do when somebody confides in you. They told the teacher. The teacher told the principal. The principal called my parents. I remember then being taken home. My mom sat me down on her bed and I remember her saying, "This is what was told to me." And I said, "Yes." And she said, "You're lying." And I said, "No, Mom, I'm not." And she said, "Yes, you are. You're lying." And I said, "Mom, I'm not." And she said, "Yes, you are. You're lying." And I said, "Okay, I'm lying."
And she went on and told my dad. She made it all up. Again, I was punished for attention-seeking. And then they proceeded to have me go to all of these people that had heard about this and apologized, including the man who had raped me. [00:24:42] And I remember being taken in his house and my dad telling him, "This is what my daughter said about you. She lied about you. I'm so sorry. She's here to apologize to you." And the man crying because he just couldn't believe that I would say something like that about him. It killed another piece of my soul. Like, that was trauma on top of trauma.
Even if a kid does not necessarily make sense in what they're saying, listen to them, believe them. Something is going on. Because, no, like, I couldn't give you A to Z what was going on. But there was obviously something. And ignoring it made it to where the trauma went on into my adult years.
Like, had it been dealt with in that moment, had it been addressed in counseling, and believed and action taken, I believe that my adult years would not be like it was. But because it was all pushed under the rug, it was my fault, it shifted a lot in who I was and who I saw myself as. [00:25:48]
So you already have the words from your abuser saying, you know, this is what God made you for and then you have, your Christian family and your Christian circle either seemingly seeing it but not doing anything or hearing about it and saying it's your fault. So all of that just compounded this feeling of maybe this is who God made me as. Maybe this is my lot in life.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.
Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched. [00:26:53]
Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated from Midwest Food Bank.
To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.
Rachel Timothy: So this whole process, this whole time from fourth grade through eighth grade, my coach is still taking me out of class, I'm still sitting behind his desk, still having these intimate conversations. He's very possessive of me as far as doesn't want me to go out with boys my age. [00:28:02]
But by my eighth-grade year, he actually asked if I could go to a basketball game with him. So there was a high school game that was taking place probably 40 minutes away. And to us, it was a date. And my parents agreed to it. So he picked me up, just like a boy would pick up a girl for a date. He picked me up, we got in the car, and we went to this high school basketball game to just watch it.
We only stayed till halftime, and we listened to it on the radio on the way home, so I knew what to tell my parents as far as how the game went. But he took a different way home, and he ended up brutally raping me on the side of the road in his car on the way home. It was one of the most evil experiences I had been a part of at that point. It really was awful. Then when it was done, he was this happy guy again. Like, it was a very odd experience for me.
When I graduated, there was no more communication from him. [00:29:02] Occasionally I would see him here or there, and he would still kind of flirt with me, but I was no longer living in that little area. We had moved further, probably five miles outside of town. So I went to a different school so that the access to me wasn't there. But not only that, I was not a kid anymore, and I think he was attracted to little kids. I know he was.
So I went into high school. I dove into basketball. That became my coping skill, which seems like a very healthy coping skill, except for the fact that I would go to any length to be the best basketball player I could be, even if it meant destroying my body. And my body was not in great shape anyway, due to everything that I had been through, but I would not stop.
So I had knee surgery after knee surgery while I was in high school. Still got that D1 scholarship that I needed to have in order to be happy in my mind, like, in order to be okay. I got it. [00:30:01] But I was never able to play a single game because I had destroyed my body so much in the process of trying to find happiness, despite the pain that was inside.
Eventually, by my sophomore year of college, I was told I no longer can play basketball, my career was over. And so that was devastating. Now what? How do I fill this odd void, this pain in my gut? So kind of my next coping skill was, okay, I'm going to set up the perfect life. I'm going to find the perfect husband and have 2.5 kids and eventually be a stay-at-home mom. And I'm just going to make my world safe and okay.
So in 2009, I got married. 2011, I had my first son. 2013, I had a little girl. So 2014 rolls around. At this point, I had a 2-and-a-half-year-old and a 6-month-old. It was January of 2014. I remember scrolling through Facebook, and I came across a Facebook post of a friend of mine. [00:31:03] She was sharing a painting that her little girl had done. The little girl was probably fifth or sixth grade, went to the same school that I had gone to.
The mom was just talking about how great the painting was, but then in the comments said, "Thank you to my coach for spending time with her daughter after school to work on this painting. And in that moment, my whole world fell apart. All of those moments where I had disassociated and I had seemingly forgot or just wouldn't acknowledge in my mind came to the forefront of my mind, like image after image and memory after memory.
And I ran to the bathroom, and I puked, and I puked, and I puked. It was things I knew, like it was almost the puzzle pieces that I knew were there, but I had never really acknowledged. If you've ever read the book, The Body Keeps the Score, it talks a lot about how your body does not forget the trauma. Your mind might, but your body always remembers. [00:32:02] And it was like that connection was made in that moment between my mind and my body. So it made sense, but at the same time, now what?
Like my husband left that morning to go to work having no idea the depth of trauma that I had had as a kid. It was to the point where I had asked my coach to sing at my wedding. Like that was where my mind was. I still thought he was, quote-unquote, "a good guy", made some mistakes, maybe we had an inappropriate relationship, but I didn't remember the depth of the darkness. I had always just remembered the good things that I could about him.
So now here I am remembering all of this, having to share this with my husband. I began cutting again. I began an eating disorder that lasted a long, long time. We started to get me into counseling. And the number one thing that I wanted to accomplish was to make sure that little girl was okay, because I knew what she was going through. [00:33:00]
We talked about meeting with the police. I had actually met with the police. I was going to file a report. But what we ended up doing because of fear was we filed an anonymous tip through DCFS. They went into the school. My understanding is that they went to him and they interviewed him, my coach, and then they went to this little girl.
Now me and this little girl are close now. She's actually the one who designed the cover of my book, Open Blind Eyes. She's a special, special girl. But I had asked her about it, like, what was that experience like? And she said, "They basically came in and said, has anybody ever hurt you?" And she said, "No." And that was it. And I knew, like, that's not enough. That's not going to get you any answers. Whether she had disassociated, didn't fully know, was trying to protect him, whatever, that's not enough to know if something was going on. [00:33:59]
Laura Dugger: And like you had said, had you been that little girl in that moment, you would have responded in the same way, even though he was absolutely hurting you in your 9- and 10-year-old mind. It was something different.
Rachel Timothy: Exactly. The hard part with youth is that you can't just simply ask a blunt question and expect a blunt response back. Their mind is not going to be able to do that, especially if grooming has taken place.
So they called the case unfounded. Honestly, I didn't know that there was anything else that I could do at that point. Then I found out that the case was not anonymous. It was supposed to be anonymous. However, it was not. I actually found out probably just three or four years ago that my name was actually put on it.
But about a month after I had made that anonymous tip, I was outside in my yard. At this point, I had an almost 3-year-old and 11-month-old. [00:35:03] My coach walked into my yard. My little girl was sitting on the ground, and I froze when I saw him. He picked up my little girl and walked straight into my house.
Me and my son followed, and thank God he put my little girl down. But then he turned around and walked towards me and kind of backed me up against the wall and proceeded to just threaten me to tell me, if you ever talk about this again, I know people who will hurt your family. And I know he did. I remember those people now. Like I know he's not lying with this.
And I don't know how to explain it, but I was not 28 years old standing there before him. I was that 9-year-old little girl. And I had no power against this man. Emotionally, I was 9 years old, and I have no doubt he saw that. Because over the course of the next, like the 2 weeks after that and another 2 weeks after that, I was hurt. Like he would come and beat the crap out of me, just reminding me again, you are not to talk about this. [00:36:05]
Then another 2 weeks after that, approximately, I was assaulted by both him and his brother. I had not told my husband. Like I went right back to the way that I was as a kid, 2 separate worlds. I'm just not even going to go there.
Then when that assault happened, only by the grace of God did I have the strength to get on my phone and I simply texted my counselor and said, "I was just raped." And I remember she tried calling me, and I couldn't get words out of my throat. And I hung up on her. And she called again, and I hung up. And then she texted and said, "Get your kids and come to my counseling office." And so I did.
We ended up telling my husband. They were like, "You have to go to the hospital, and you have to file a report." I didn't want to do either one. I was terrified. I was traumatized. I was a hot mess. So at that point, it really wasn't my choice. [00:37:04]
So we went to the hospital, and I did have a rape kit done and I was interviewed by a police officer. I told them everything except for the names of the men who had hurt me because I was scared. I remember my husband saying, "Either you have to tell them the names, or we're going to have to move." And I said, "Then I guess we have to move."
We real quickly, within two weeks, uprooted and went about an hour and a half away. My husband got a real quick new job. We just were hoping to start life over. I remember I had so much anger towards myself because to me, this was all my doing. I didn't fight back. I didn't tell anybody the right way. I didn't do any of this the right way. So I felt like it was my fault.
About nine months after this, my husband got a new job. And so we ended up taking this new job. [00:38:06] It was going to have better insurance, better hours. And it would be about 30 to 40 minutes from where my coach lived. And we had hoped that would be enough distance.
There was still a lot of trauma in me, but also in my husband. We were not communicating very well at this point. He was angry. We were both very distant. We just had a lot of other hard stuff tied to all of this going on. So we got this new job. We moved to this new town. We're renting a house.
About three or four months into living at this new place, my coach shows up again. And this time, he's in tears. And I'm still 9 years old when I'm talking to him. This moment of being in my kitchen, having this conversation with my coach, I regret more than anything. Like I wish that I could have had a different response. But as he went on to say, you know, I'm stuck in this ring. I'm stuck with this awful group of people, and I can't get out. And I don't want to be here. Like this is not who I am. [00:39:09] All of those old feelings began to come back.
And when he said, "I need your help. And I'm going to have somebody come tonight. And when a truck shows up and revs his engines, you know, if you would go out there and just this one time, just help me." And I said, okay. And I did.
That night, in the middle of the night, I heard a revving of engines outside my house and I left my house, and I got in the truck with this man I didn't know. And I was taken to a hotel probably a mile and a half from my house and was raped for about three hours. And driven back to my house, came back inside, and literally just went right back to my old habits. I went to the bathroom, I took a shower, I cleaned myself up, and I got in bed with my husband, and I acted like everything was fine.
But because I did it that one time, there was no stopping it at that point. I was threatened, you know, we're going to tell everybody what you did. We're going to hurt your kids. We're going to hurt your family. So my worlds just became separated again, and I began to leave in the middle of the night. [00:40:16]
Anytime I heard a revving of engines, I would go out. I would get in a vehicle with somebody I didn't know. I'd be taken to places, whether it was a camper out in the country or in a house that people didn't know that it was actually a brothel or a hotel or just a group of guys in a car. I was taken to these places and sold repeatedly and then brought back home and acted like everything was fine.
My husband, I mean, he knew something was wrong. I began to lose a massive amount of weight. I would wear long sleeves and long pants even in the summer because I was hiding cuts and bruises and marks from this awful abuse. He assumed it was because of the assault that had happened, you know, the year prior. He knew I was struggling from that.
Then in the middle of the night, he would wake up and I wouldn't be in bed with him. He assumed I was in bed with one of the kids. You know, like you don't assume, oh, my wife's out being trafficked, you know. You don't think those thoughts. It was poor communication between two very traumatized people. [00:41:24]
It ended up going on for a year. Like it was awful. And when you think of this type of stuff, you know, like I had one lady one time say, Do you just really love sex? Like, no, that's not what this is. This is not like what you would picture between a husband and a wife. It is beyond evil and beyond what your mind can think. It's not something anybody would want.
There were videos made. This is why I say anybody who thinks that pornography is a harmless sin, it is not. Those women don't want to be there. Statistically, they say 90% of the women on a porn site, video, whatever, are being trafficked. You don't see what's happening before the video or after the video. They maybe appear like they want to be there.
But whether it's force, fraud, or coercion, them being on that video, it's not their choice. No woman wants to do that. So people make the assumption, even men that would come and pay for me made the assumption, I wanted this. [00:42:28]
And that's not the case. You don't see all of the trauma that took place prior to you showing up or prior to you watching this video. So really, you watching pornography, you are paying a trafficker.
Laura Dugger: I think that is so important to pause there and reiterate. There is such a lie that this is a secret thing. This is harming no one. This is just me. And that is just not truth.
Rachel Timothy: It's not truth. I mean, you can go into all the reasons just within your own marriage. You are rewiring your brain in a way that is not healthy, not of God, is not going to benefit your wife, your kids. I mean, all of it is evil. But when you recognize that you're actually watching a victim of sex trafficking, it does take a little bit different turn for some men. So I do want to point that out.
I've had times when I've gone and I've spoken and I've had men come to me and say, "I want to apologize because I was one of those men that watched porn." [00:43:33] I had no idea. There's no judgment there. Like I'm not angry at them. I just want change. It needs to be taken care of.
We need to be pouring into our men, keeping our men accountable, asking our husbands, our sons about, are you watching porn? The average age of a kid that sees pornography is eight years old. And that changes a mind.
And the amount of trauma survivors that we work with in our program, whose older brother sexually abused them because they had watched porn, you know, a little sister's easy access. It causes things that you would never think possible.
Laura Dugger: Also for women and for girls as well, their statistics to support pornography usage and viewing is going up so much, especially since COVID, it was compounded, but both men and women.
Rachel Timothy: Yeah. And it's an addiction and it is like a drug to your brain. So once you start, it's like you need more and a little bit more and a little bit more. [00:44:38] Denise, the co-founder of our program, she talks a lot about addiction and she does a great job of explaining when you have an addiction, it's almost like a tunnel. Like that's the only thing that makes you happy at that point. You lose joy in everything else except for that addiction. So you need more and more of that to get that dopamine feeling.
Whereas those of us that don't have an addiction, we find joy in the sunrise, in our children. But when you have an addiction, it's just not there anymore.
Laura Dugger: It even reminds me of something that you wrote in your book, and I don't have it in front of me right now to quote verbatim, but just that we cannot make sense of evil.
Rachel Timothy: Yeah. I say that a lot. Because there's people that hear my story and they cannot comprehend it or they don't want to believe that our world is this dark and ugly. And I get it. Like I don't either. I have kids. I don't want them to go through this stuff by any means.
If I could put them in a bubble, I would. But I also know that God has a purpose for their life. [00:45:42] And if I can equip them and empower them and listen to them when they have hurts that they need to tell me and say, "You know, I believe you. I want to hear about this. It changes everything for them and it equips them to then do better in the world."
We are raising traumatized kids, whether it's from what they're seeing on their phones, what's going on at school with bullying.
I heard a statistic recently and I am sharing it every chance I get because it's that important. In our country, we are only recognizing 1% of trafficking victims. So when you see... it's like 700,000, 800,000 is what they predict as possibly the amount of victims in our country. That's 1%. And it's literally in every school. It's probably in every classroom. These kids are being videotaped. Their parents are taking them on the weekends to get a little extra cash, whether they need drug money. I see it all the time. [00:46:45]
But we think of trafficking as you have to be taken out of the country. You have to be taken across borders. You have to be kidnapped. And it's not that way. These kids are still going to school. They're still going to church. They're still leading a quote-unquote, "normal life" and not able to tell anybody the hell that they're going through because they don't even understand it completely.
Laura Dugger: From your experience then, are there any indications that may be red flags to us as adults with businesses? Is there any signal or anything that can give us indication that there's more going on here?
Rachel Timothy: So when it goes to the spas, if you have to ring a doorbell to get in, that is not a normal spa. If you were to call and they say, "Oh, we don't serve women," that's a brothel. And we don't realize it, but we have brothels everywhere.
These foreign women who are taken from their country, their family is promised that they're going to get all this money from this beautiful job that they're going to have in America. And they take these foreign women who do not speak our language purposefully, and they house them in these little spas. [00:47:58] And they have man after man come in.
It's really mind-boggling that our system in many ways allows it because it's obvious it's a brothel. But for whatever reason, our police system, our court system, whatever, is not stopping it.
Not too far from here, there's a safe house and they have office buildings in this little strip mall. So they have their Christian ministry safe house for trafficking survivors. And literally right next door is a brothel. And they know when a man's walking in, they know that he is about to rape one of these women. And they know these men have to shower before they are with a woman. And they will hear the shower turn on as they're sitting there trying to help one of their trafficking survivors.
It is awful. And it doesn't matter who you contact, what level of state, police, whatever, it doesn't matter. It continues to happen. [00:48:58] And if they are busted, these women are put in jail for prostitution and the pimps are set free. And then the pimps pay for them to get out and they go right back to it.
Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content.
And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
The entire system is so corrupt. And yet, I do want to eventually ask you some things that each of us can do. But let's first go back to close a few of the loops. At this point of your story, your husband believes you. You have a counselor. How did things progress to you getting out? [00:49:56] And are you considered that you've gotten out?
Rachel Timothy: Yes.
Laura Dugger: What does that look like?
Rachel Timothy: Yes. After I had been in it for like a year as an adult, we ended up moving to a different town where there was a Christian school and a Christian church that we decided that's where God wanted us to be. And so this was the first time I was no longer going to my dad's church, which was new for me. But there was an elder's wife of this church that I could just tell there was something about her that was safe. I had tried with many people to reach out. And my story was too much. The danger of it was too much. The understanding of it was too much. And I get it. Like, I understand. But in a way, like, what do I do? You know?
So I had kind of given up hope on reaching out to people. I was barely making it, but I was still putting on this facade as best that I could that everything was okay. [00:50:56] I saw her one time at one of our little Christmas events at church and she asked if she could hold my fourth baby at that point. And there was just something different.
So I started to text her some and would ask for prayer. Just almost like testing her. Like, what can she handle? So I would give her little bits and pieces of things. Eventually, I texted her and I said, "What would you have done if your daughter had come to you and said that she had been abused?" And I remember her response was nothing like my mom's response.
She picked up on the fact at that point that I had probably been sexually abused as a kid. So she literally dropped everything. She was supposed to teach at Awana that night at church and she got a substitute. And she came and she picked me up and we went for a drive.
I told her as best I could some of the pieces of my childhood, still keeping a secret what was continually going on at that point in my life. [00:51:54] But I remember her saying to me, you know, when men do this stuff to kids, it's often for power. And I said, or money. And her jaw dropped open and she had no idea. Like she knew trafficking existed in Cambodia, or Haiti, or wherever. She did not know it was in her backyard.
I remember her saying to me, "You've told the right person. This is not going to continue." And she meant it. As time went on and she began to pour into me, she would show up at my house for maybe five minutes just to give me a hug. And I was a shell of a person at that point. I couldn't cry. I mean, I was barely functioning. And here I was needing to take care of four kids. So she would show up and she would just hug me.
And I remember holding on to her and not wanting her to leave because I didn't know at what point would another truck come? At what point would I be hurt again? And so I would hold on to her for dear life, like a 9-year-old would hold on to a mom. [00:52:55]
At one point she recognized bruises and cuts and different things and she realized this is still going on. And so she showed up at my house with her husband one night and I was like, "Oh, why are you guys here? And she said, "Your husband needs to know." I had so much PTSD that all I knew at that point was my life was over. He was going to leave. He was going to take the kids. Everything was going to be over. My trauma response has always been to just run. I don't know where I'm going. I don't know why. I just have to get out of this space.
So I grabbed my keys and I began to run. And my husband grabbed me and literally to where my feet could not hit the floor, held on to me with his arms wrapped around me as she told him everything that she knew and what was going on. And mind you, so she's telling my husband, your wife's leaving in the middle of the night to be sold for sex. AI honestly thought this was it. And he whispered in my ear, "I'm not going anywhere. I'm here. It's okay." [00:54:03] And we proceeded to call the police.
And I was supposed to tell them like everything that I could, especially from that most recent attack where I had been hurt. I literally thought when I signed the papers for that police report, I'm the one going to jail. I really wholeheartedly believed that, that this is it. This is what God... this is my punishment. To the point where I was on my hands and knees trying to crawl and escape out of this house. Like I had so much PTSD.
And this led to us, granny. So I called this lady, this elder's wife, granny, because, well, for one, I don't use names in my book and everybody calls her granny. So she just became kind of... she became granny. Anyway. So she would begin to take me to police stations and I would share my story with them. There was a case then open, a criminal case open. They did a raid on my coach's house, a raid on his brother's house. I was then having meetings with FBI, like because of the child porn and the money exchange, like it went really high up. [00:55:13]
One of the FBI agents was incredible. She was a woman. She was like what you would see on TV. She had red hair. She like dressed in a suit and she was really fit and just... she was ready to catch these guys. And she was able to pull bank accounts and be able to put different pieces together and be able to see where money was being exchanged. She was putting all of the pieces together.
Then she had told me at one point... you know, she couldn't come right out and say it, but she's like, If we were going into your coach's house looking for candy, we found candy. And she's like, "It's just a matter of time. We have to go through every device that he has to know the extent of everything. But just know that it's just a matter of time before this will be an open and shut-case. And I felt so grateful like this is going to be it.
It took obviously a lot longer than it should have for them to go through all of these devices. And in the meantime, I still had trucks showing up. [00:56:13] I mean, this ring of men was much bigger than just my coach. I don't I still don't believe I know the depth of it, but still, I was not safe. So we ended up having me go to... we chose an eating disorder facility. Yes, I had an eating disorder, but it was serving more as a safe house purpose.
I didn't need to go somewhere for two years and learn how to use food stamps. Like that was not my situation. Women who are taken off the street who have no ability to function in everyday life, they need that. That's not where I was. And so we went to this eating disorder facility, I was separated from my kids for eight weeks. It was awful. I missed my youngest daughter's first birthday. But they began to work with me on healing. When you feel safe, it's amazing the amount of healing that you can have.
So things were getting better. But while I was there, I got word that they allowed my coach back into teaching and coaching and back into being an elder of a church. [00:57:13] And I call up the FBI and I'm like, "You said you guys found child porn." Like that was the indication I was told. And she wasn't the only one who told me. I had three or four other officers say it's just a matter of time. And she said, "Yeah, and it was on a thumb drive and it's gone. The forensic guy has no idea what happened. He says this never happened before. It's gone."
So without that evidence, he's free to go back into the school. And I was devastated. And from that moment on, things just were up and down as far as safety went. Different people showing up at my house and the trauma that was happening that my kids would even see with being followed and all of that.
So 2020 rolled around at a time when we thought I would be the safest because the whole world has shut down. Evil does not shut down in the pandemic. Things escalated to a whole new level. This part's not even in my book. Like this is recent. [00:58:15]
But we knew we needed to leave. We no longer could stay where we were. Which killed me because I would be leaving Granny. And she was the first person to believe me. She was my safe place. And I didn't think I could do it. I was scared out of my mind to leave because in my mind, the ring is big enough. They will find me wherever I am. But then I won't have Granny.
So my husband got transferred. Again, a new job. Uprooted the kids. Again, they're traumatized just from their mom being traumatized. We ended up in Bloomington, Illinois. It was great that we ended up there. There's a lot of great people that had helped us. And I was super grateful but things were not great in the beginning.
So here we are running away from a trafficking ring to get safe. The person who had opened up their house to us to live in because we couldn't buy a house until we sold our house. So we move in with this family that we don't know. But people we know know them. They're a Christian family. [00:59:17]
The husband's an elder and all those things. We end up living there for about two and a half months. And while we're there, there was a particular morning where my kids were at school, my husband was at work, and it was me and my youngest daughter at the house. And at 10 a.m. on the dot, "I hear a loud bang at the front door." And I go over to the other bedroom and I look out the front window and I see just a slew of police officers. Then I hear the man of the house open the door and I hear them say, "This is such and such police. We are here to raid your house."
I run back to the other bedroom, I grab my daughter and I'm like... I hear the police say, "There's somebody upstairs." So they storm up to the upstairs. My daughter is terrified. She's three, four at this point. They pulled the iPad out of her hands. Like, we're going to need every device you have. Come to find out the man we were living with was creating and distributing child porn. [01:00:16] And we were living with a pedophile. I had no idea.
So then we have to get involved with DCFS. And they have to interview my kids. Were they safe with, you know, while living in this man's house? That all happened at like 10 a.m. By 1 p.m. we get the understanding of what we were living with. And we are now homeless. We have nowhere to live. Like they said, you cannot go back to this house. That's fine. I'm not going back to this house. No worries there. But where do we go? And I need to pick my kids up from school at three.
I go back to this house and I try to get all of our stuff out before this man is released. Because, again, they have to go through all of the devices. And it has taken a year and a half. He is now in jail. But it took a year and a half for them to go through all of that.
So I go and I pick up my kids from school, and they're like, "Why is all of our stuff in the car?" And I said, "We're going on an adventure. God's got an amazing plan for us. I just don't know what it is yet." [01:01:20] And God showed up big time.
Because it was COVID, hotels were empty. And a man in the area heard our story and said, "I, for free, will give them two bedrooms." And so two conjoining rooms in this hotel became our home for the next month and a half until we were able to sell our house and buy a home. So my kids will still be like, "Mom, were we homeless?" Kind of. Let's not say that. But, I mean, it was just one thing after another.
Finally, I started to get this chance to share my story. And people, for the first time, wanted to hear and wanted to know and learn and understand what trafficking looks like here. So I would be able to share the signs. School teachers were wanting to understand. My book began to be passed around.
The more loud I got, the safer I got. Because I was almost in this middle ground of I'm kind of saying what's going on. I'm kind of going to the police and giving bits and pieces. But I'm not being loud to where I'm really making this big scene, but I'm also not staying completely quiet about it. [01:02:32] And in that middle ground, it seemed to just be where I was the most unsafe.
Laura Dugger: That totally makes me think of Ephesians 5, which I recommend the whole chapter. But I will just read a little excerpt. So verses 8 through 14 say, "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"
I think this is exactly what you're talking about, Rachel, because we expose the darkness into the light, and we confess and bring this forward, and it loses its power. Sin loses its power, even if it's the sins that others have committed against us. [01:03:51]
Rachel Timothy: Yes. To a T. That was literally the scripture that I remember during this time. No joke. As I'm deciding to publish my book that I had held on to for three, four years, deciding to speak and share my story, it was, number one, the truth will set you free, and then bringing the light into the darkness, because evil does not like light. They will run from it. That was my only game plan. Like, literally, "Here you go, God. I'm going to speak out. You do the rest." And He has.
And now we have this program, and we're helping trauma survivors. I am not healed by any way, shape, or form. I'm healing. And it will probably be a lifetime thing. But the way that I've got to experience God in the midst of all this has been unbelievable.
Now I get to pour that into other trauma survivors who have this confusion with God. Trauma confuses the Bible so dang much. What I would love to do someday is have like a Bible handbook for trauma survivors to be able to understand, because you can twist Scripture to say almost about anything you want. [01:05:00]
Laura Dugger: Which is what Satan did to Jesus when He was trying to tempt him. He used it as a weapon rather than as a tool.
Rachel Timothy: Yes, exactly. That's a dream I have. I don't know when I'll have time to sit and do that. But God's just been working miracles.
Laura Dugger: At this point, do you feel safe as you've brought this into the light?
Rachel Timothy: Yes, I do. Now, it's not to say that there's not idiots out there and that there's not still an occasional message that shows up that's just off the wall. But I am stronger, and therefore they don't have their power anymore. I've chosen to do a civil suit against them. The criminal side of things has not worked out yet. So I'm doing a civil suit, and I'm taking them to court. Mainly for the reason, because my coach is still an elder of a church. He leads worship, and he's around kids. [01:05:59] It's mainly about making sure people understand he is not safe and kids cannot be around him.
But God is using it in so many other ways too. Like I'm learning so much about the court system. Ways that victims are not being treated correctly in the court system, and things that need to change. And I'm just at a place where I never thought God would have brought me. I mean, this is not the path I would have chosen. I don't believe it's the path that God chose for me either. I wholeheartedly believe He's taking what Satan has done and bringing good out of it. And I just love Him for it.
Laura Dugger: Well, Rachel, as you're sharing all of this, and how God is bringing goodness out of everything as He redeems and restores, you have clearly such a unique perspective that I think you can teach a lot of us. Is there anything you would recommend we look for, especially with our children or in our communities?
Rachel Timothy: Yeah, absolutely. [01:06:59] I think if you're looking for physical signs, victims are pretty good at hiding those. That's probably not going to be the first sign for you. I think majority of the time it's behavioral or emotional. But if you see a kid wearing baggy clothes a lot, wearing long sleeves, long pants in the summertime when it just doesn't make sense, that could be a sign.
Isolation is huge. If your kid all of a sudden starts to isolate, starts to spend more time alone, or if they are wanting to spend time alone with, obviously, a grown person, that's not normal. Oftentimes these perpetrators will pose as a way to help the child, whether it's a mentor, you're a working parent that needs a babysitter, and, oh, let me come.
As a grown adult, you know, especially as a grown man, to be alone with a child doesn't make sense, especially in this day and age. You just don't. And so they should understand the fact that you're not going to be alone with my child. [01:08:02]
But with children, I mean, asking them the heart questions, not so much, hey, is anybody hurting you? Because immediately I'm going to be like, "What do I say? I don't want to expose him. Will this make me look bad? Will I get in trouble? So asking the heart questions of who you spend time with the most, who do you enjoy spending time with, who makes you feel special.
And ask them about at school, like is there any teacher that makes you feel special? Your coach, your youth group leader. I mean, guys, because it's in all of these areas, unfortunately. But if you have an isolated period, if you have a drastic shift in personality, all of a sudden angry, all of a sudden just not who they used to be, there's something that's happened. Now, whether it's sexual abuse or something else, getting to the heart of that is huge for a kid.
Be very, very, very mindful of devices. [01:09:00] My 8-year-old actually got approached on a Barbie app game by a predator. Literally, I had no idea there was messaging capabilities in this app and was blown away at the sick things that he said to her. She didn't tell me because she knew it was wrong and she didn't know how I would respond.
And so be mindful because our kids are being approached by evil nonstop online and have that open communication with them and have safeguards in place for them. But not only that, then you're also going to have kids at school that are seeing those things and are then going to talk to your kids about it or want to act out on your kids with it.
I mean, our kids are in the lion's den and we have to equip them. We want to cover their ears and cover their eyes and say, don't look at the evil world. But then they're not prepared for what they are going into the world and facing. And so we have to talk to them about it. [01:10:00]
Those are probably some of the biggest signs that I can think of and practical ways of empowering our kids to fight this evil.
Laura Dugger: Well, and then would you share a little bit more about even the resources that you've made available and your nonprofit?
Rachel Timothy: Yeah. So our nonprofit is Stop Suffering in Silence. We acronym it Stop SIS. But along the way, along my journey, I met this amazing lady, Denise Walsh. She is a former clinical psychologist, but she has a huge heart for victims and just really she wants everybody to find their spark, to be able to live free of all of that baggage.
I did one of her programs called 90-Day U-Turn. That is where for the first time I walked away from my eating disorder. And when I did the chains that fell off of me, like that was my coping skill of I can't live without this. The pain will be too much. I didn't trust God to be my comfort. [01:10:59] So it was one of those where, God, I will let it go. Once you comfort me enough, then I will let my eating disorder go. But I needed to let my eating disorder go in order for God to be my comfort.
I went through that journey while I was on 90-day U-Turn, and it changed my life. So now we're like, we need to pass this information along. We need trauma survivors to have a chance to do this program just for trauma survivors. So we started Stop Suffering in Silence where we do the same program, but geared towards trauma survivors. And it's obviously a 90-day program. We do it all through Zoom. Women from all over the country join us and take this program, and it's been life-changing for them. It's been beautiful.
Laura Dugger: Well, and if any of us want to do our part to get the truth out there or support you in your ministry, what would you advise for each of us?
Rachel Timothy: So you could go to our website, stopsuffering.org, if you are interested in donating to help with these women. [01:12:05] Everything that we provide is free. We take them on retreats. We love on them and give them an extra dose of healing while we're out there.
And then we also have what we call the Granny Program, where because of the Granny in my life and the way that she literally pulled me out of the darkness, we have where when they're done with the 90-day U-Turn, a survivor, we pair them with a healthy adult woman of God who becomes their mentor and just walks alongside them through life to be a phone call away, a text message away, to just say, you can tell me anything and I'm here. We train our grannies and we stick with our grannies because they need encouragement along the journey too.
Then I also recently wrote a book, Reflecting Ownership, which is a trauma program, and we're providing that for these women as well and going around and speaking and opening eyes. I get an opportunity to speak at a hospital later this afternoon and shed light on what trafficking looks like there. [01:13:07]
So there's just a lot that God is opening doors to. So we have a prayer team if you would be interested in joining that. But yeah, and if you know of anybody who is struggling with trauma, have them reach out to us. We're not going to hash and rehash and go over and over your trauma. That's not our job. We always recommend counseling for sure. But there comes a point where you've said it all and you still feel stuck. And that's where I was for the most part. Yes, I still have flashbacks and triggers and struggles, but I was stuck in my trauma.
This helps you dream again. It helps you get out of that and to see yourself as God sees you. You have a community of people who understand you. You're on Zoom. You don't know these people from Adam. You can share your heart and know you're not going to see them in the grocery store next week. And it's just been really empowering to see these women take control of their life again and do things they never thought possible.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We will absolutely add links in the show notes for today's episode and also to the books that you've written. [01:14:13] I've read both of those, and I appreciate you clearly give God all the glory. And we get to see more of your spiritual walk through all of this.
We also get to see what you were talking about, how the Bible was twisted in certain ways and used against you, but then how God continues to reclaim and redeem all of this and even the miracles that he's shown you along the way. And we don't have time to cover all of it, but I would recommend those resources. And just like your first one is entitled, it does help us open blind eyes. And so I recommend those to everyone listening today.
But on a lighter note, Rachel, you know that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Rachel Timothy: My savvy sauce, I would have to say, is the Bible. It's crazy because that's what was used against me. But as I have been able to study it myself and see God's character in a way that I didn't see before, it blows my mind how much He loves and cares for us. [01:15:25]
When I opened the Bible in the past, I felt shame. But now when I open it, I feel loved. So for anybody out there who is struggling with, well, where was God when this happened? And why did God allow this to happen? And who is He and who am I to Him? All those questions, if you truly want to know, if you really want to understand Him, it's right there. And there's resources and there's people who can help guide you to understanding his character.
But, I mean, when I get in His word, probably on top of the word is when I stop and just listen. When I'm quiet, when I quiet my mind, when I quiet my heart, everything, and just pause, even if it's just in the morning for just a little bit, and I let God speak, it's my favorite part of the day. I can't get through the day without that moment of letting Him speak life into me. So that's 100% my savvy sauce.
Laura Dugger: I love it. I can see even getting to be face-to-face with you, just the love of God pouring in and through you. [01:16:30] I so much enjoyed getting to know you a bit better. This is not an easy story to share and so I just want to thank you for being courageous to do this and bring this into the light. I pray that it causes more healing for you and also for others, that it will set captives free.
So thank you for sharing the power of your testimony, because we know we can overcome Satan with the blood of the lamb and the power of our testimony. So thank you so much, Rachel, for being my guest.
Rachel Timothy: Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [01:17:32] So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [01:18:32]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [01:19:37] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.