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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Oct 08, 2018
Monday Oct 08, 2018
15. The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at the Table with Author and International Speaker, Devi Titus
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 23:5+6 (NKJV) “You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life, And I will dwell in the house of the LORD Forever.”
Devi Titus, wife of Larry Titus, is an international Christian conference speaker and author. She is an award winning communicator with the Washington Press Women’s Association and speaks to multiple thousands annually, both nationally and globally. She first came to the attention of women nationwide in 1978 when she founded and edited VIRTUE magazine, a successful Christian alternative to secular women’s magazines. VIRTUE magazine raised a standard of excellence for women’s lives for 22 years. She is an author and founder of The Mentoring Mansion (now called the TITUS HOME). Married for 54 years, Larry and Devi have two children, six grandchildren, and eleven great grandchildren. She and her husband reside in the Dallas/Ft Worth, TX area and travel extensively worldwide.
Devi's Books:
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:19] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode.
Today it is my privilege to get to interview Devi Titus. She's an internationally known author and speaker and she has incredible wisdom to share.
If you've ever wondered why it's so important to gather at the table and why that has such a profound impact on our lives, Stay tuned while Devi unpacks what she calls The Table Principle. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Devi.
Devi Titus: Oh, thank you, Laura. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, we're glad you're joining us today. Can you give all of us just a brief snapshot of your life?
Devi Titus: Well, I am married for 54 years to a wonderful man who was called into ministry as a young boy. [00:01:19] He was in full-time ministry when we married. I was 17 years old, he was 21. We pastored for 37 years as senior pastors, and since 2002, we have developed a missions organization and we work in 24 nations.
We have two children, we have six grandchildren, we have 10 and the 11th on the way great-grandchildren. So if we refer to the Titus 2 woman in the New Testament where the passage is older women teach younger women, I am a real Titus older woman.
Laura Dugger: That's an incredible, rich life. Thank you for sharing. Let's even glance further back into your past. How did your own mother model biblical principles?
Devi Titus: Oh, thank you for asking that. [00:02:19] My mother is 95 years old and she is still very, very active. So my mom, for her generation, was a full-time working mother. We were a lower middle-class income family. Both my mother and father worked. They worked very long hours.
My father was saved when I was five years old. My mother grew up in a Christian home, recommitted her life to Jesus a few years prior to my father. My mother and father were both biblical examples. We attended church regularly. We were taught to respect authority. What is essential to a Christian life my mother and father lived.
You know, there's a saying that there's more caught than taught. Of course, they taught us, but the way they lived created a lifestyle within our home of love, of peace, of kindness, of consideration, of hospitality. [00:03:22] And my mother did this working full time as well.
In those days, we attended church probably four times a week: Sunday morning, Sunday night. We had a Tuesday night and a Thursday night. And then if you add a youth meeting to that, we were at church a lot. But they weren't pastors. They were faithful, hard workers and I wanted a home like theirs. I wanted to be a person like her. So that showed me the reality of practical Christian living.
Laura Dugger: That sounds like an incredible family of origin, and you've just been able to build upon those roots. What I've gathered from the resources I've read or listened to from yours, it sounds like you believe women are intended to be the primary influencers in their home. Is that right?
Devi Titus: Well, I do. It is a biblical conviction, and it's something that I have drawn from the scripture over the years, but also from observance. [00:04:23] We've pastored as lead pastors for 37 years, and then now we are in different kinds of churches every week in many different nations.
And what I have observed is that many, many women are married to very ungodly men, and they can raise godly children. But we have seldom seen a godly man married to a very ungodly woman raise godly children. So just practical results.
Then from biblical references, Psalm 128:3 says, a wife will be a fruitful vine in her house and her children will be like olive shoots around her table. So that is the development of character. The characteristic of an olive shoot is it becomes an olive tree and no storm in life can uproot an olive tree. So whether we work full-time or not, within our home, we are primary influence. [00:05:25]
Another, Proverbs 12:4 says, "A wife can either be a crown to her husband or as rottenness in his bones." Now, if you ask me, that's the primary influence not just in our home, but within our marriage. We can choose for it to be positive or negative. I could go on and on.
Another passage, Titus 2:4-5, is a list of seven attributes that we are to transfer from generation to generation older women teaching younger women to love their husband, love their children, to be pure chase. But it says to be keepers of the home which in the Greek means "to guard." So we have the primary influence over the atmosphere and we're assigned...
Actually, Paul was writing to Titus, a young pastor, to be sure that these Greek women in a very pagan Greek culture who were coming to learn about Christ and commit their life to Christ, remind them to leave the way their culture is and to come back. [00:06:29] It was Hebraic, actually, values. Come back to those values and become the primary influencer within your home. Be the guardian. Because in that time, women had left their homes. They were competing with men, they were leading the businesses in that culture. They were even so successful, they were idolized and the Greeks began making female gods to worship. So we are primary influencers, not just in our home, but in our culture and our society. It's the way God created us.
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating to hear all of that scripture put together. And just for clarification, do you believe that this just applies then to stay-at-home moms?
Devi Titus: Oh, absolutely not. We would be in big trouble if that were the case. Look at history. Let's just take American history. The Revolutionary War, for example. We were fighting for our freedom in America and our freedom from England. [00:07:29] And in doing so, all of the men, the professionals, the lawyers, the bakers, the farmers, they all left their professions, saddled a horse and they took off into battle and the women totally ran our nation. They took over all the businesses. They had the duties of the house, the responsibility. Many of them lost their husbands in battle and in war.
So life brings circumstances that we rise to. I don't think it's ever an argument, should a woman be educated, a professional, or should she stay at home as if we are making a choice one or the other? God designed the home to be the institution where the human heart is formed. So if we are a professional and we work outside of our home, we still come home to a home, a family, if we're married, a husband, or we could be alone. [00:08:32]
The home is the place that God created for your hearts to really have the security that love and peace brings. God designed that. It doesn't have anything to do with our status in life, our education in life, our financial or social status or whatever our professional titles might be.
Home is home, and we all have a home. It might be a shack, it might be under a tent or under some tree leaves in some places in the world. But we will find a place to create shelter. Even if it's homeless, they have a home. It's under the bridge. So we all create a home.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for that clarification. I know you've written about women maintaining the sanctity and dignity of their home. So what are some reasons that women, even with the best of intentions, may have unintentionally let some of their other priorities undermine their focus on maintaining that sanctity and dignity of their home? [00:09:43]
Devi Titus: I think most of it is unintentional instead of intentional, and I really think it's because of a lack of knowledge. Because when we have a conviction about something, it gives us the courage to face what needs to be faced in order to change. But we are living in America two generations of a major, major disintegration of the family. So most women don't even have a paradigm of what dignity even is in her personal life, let alone in her house.
The root word for 'dignity', it actually means 'worth'. So when I talk about restoring the dignity of the home, what I mean is I'm restoring in your mindset the way you think about the home in relationship to the human hearts who live there. They have worth and the home itself has worth or value in relationship to you who live there. [00:10:50]
So I'm educating women to understand that so then we can rise to it. So I think women just live with a lower value of the home because they haven't been taught. We're two generations away from mothers really understanding it herself and being able to transfer that value to her daughters.
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting. If somebody wants to grow more in this area, you and your daughter have just written an incredible book that does train women on both how and why to make their home a place of love and peace.
I just love one of your quotes, and it says, "I can determine a person's values by looking at her checkbook, her calendar, and her home order. Regardless of what she claims her values are, the truth is the way she spends her money and time and the manner in which she lives in her home reveal the things that are truly most important to her." [00:11:55]
I just love that you challenge us to evaluate our true values and then prioritize appropriately. That leads into one of the sections of your book is something that you call the "use what you have" principle. Can you just share what you mean by that?
Devi Titus: Oh, Laura, you've just asked such wonderful questions. I love that. The "use what you have" principle is birthed out of the text, Matthew 25, beginning at verse 13. Jesus is actually telling His disciples what the kingdom is, and He used a parable. We commonly refer to it as the parable of the talents.
So He said the kingdom is like a man going on a journey, and He's going to divide his possessions among three different kinds of people, each according to their ability. In the kingdom, Jesus looks at where we are, what is our season in life, He trusts us with responsibility according to our ability. [00:13:01]
So He never expects things from us that we can't rise to and accomplish. This parable points that out. But the basic principle in the parable is he who is faithful with a few things will become ruler over many things. And as Jesus was telling the story, He said, the master is going to come back and ask you, how did you use what you have?
When we read that story as a parable, we must realize that Jesus actually, although He didn't reveal it, was talking about Himself because He was going to be the master who would go away and then He would trust the responsibility to the next generation to sustain His teachings and the lifestyle that He demonstrated and to pass it on to others. [00:13:59]
So the disciples had a responsibility to use what they had, just like I do. We have houses, we have cars. My father was a simple man. He wasn't educated... or higher educated. He committed his life to Jesus when I was 5 years old. And as soon as he did, he said, "Mom, I want to buy a station wagon." In those days, it was a nine-passenger car. We only had two children. We didn't need it. But he saw the field workers' children in the agriculture area that we lived in California, and he said, "If I don't use my car and drive out to pick up those children, they will never hear about Jesus. That was me when I was a child. I lived in that kind of place. And for me, Jesus Christ was only a curse word. I didn't know He was the Savior. I don't want them to wait until they are an adult like I did. So I used what I had." [00:15:00]
You know, I tell this story because I had spoken to several thousand women at a conference and the lady waited to speak with me afterwards. And I told this story and she said, "Devi, I loved your message, and the story just touched me so much. I want to ask you a question. Is your father's name Moffett Walker?
She was a lady about 50 years old. And I said, "Yes." How in the world would you know my dad's name?" She said, "I was one of those children." Then her son was a youth pastor of a huge Bay Area youth group of several thousand a week. It was like a major revival. So here was even a second generation of my father using a simple principle. What he had was a car. He wasn't a preacher, he didn't go to seminary. He was a butcher. But the kingdom is to be built by all of us using what we have. [00:16:02]
Jesus said, "If you will just give them a cup of cold water in my name, I will be there." So I challenge everybody, instead of complaining what you don't have, look at what you have because Jesus has trusted you with it and He is going to come back and ask you, have you been faithful with a few things because I wanted to give you more.
But the truth is, if you don't keep one toilet clean, you're not going to have a house with five toilets. You won't keep those clean either. Because sometimes we think, "Oh, if my house was bigger. Oh, if we owned a house and didn't live in an apartment. Oh, if I had more than a studio." No, let's maximize what we have, make it the best possible, steward it, maximize its potential — that's the 'use what you have' principle — be faithful with that, and He will trust you with more. [00:17:03]
And that's not just physical things. That's influence, it's telling your story. It's every aspect of what He has done for you in your life isn't for self-absorption, it's to be shared. So that's the principle.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. You explain it so well. What an incredible story how that came around full circle. And I think it just illustrates that none of us are exempt from this expectation.
Devi Titus: No, no. And equipped. Jesus said, each according to their ability. We are equipped. You know what I have found in my personal life? I said I married at 17, so that tells you immediately I didn't go to university. I graduated from high school. And you can kind of see the accomplishments that God has allowed me to rise to. But that didn't come overnight. It came by me writing one three-page magazine article. [00:18:04] And before I wrote the article, I had to have something to write about that was legitimate.
So it really became me being faithful in my home, serving my husband as a pastor, and just being faithful with each day, maximizing that day and making that day the best it could be, given the circumstance that day brought.
So sometimes we get tragedy in a day. But we can rise to that tragedy the best we can and then He'll take us through it. He'll meet us there and expand it. I truly believe, for me personally, I think He's even expanded my intellect. I wasn't considered, you know, the honor roll student or that sort of thing. Then I think of the capacity that he has given me, even the thinking capacity, the skill capacity, the creative capacity. None of that was developed as a young woman. It just kept increasing as I was faithful with where I was at the time. But I never had goals to do what I do now. [00:19:19] I was just faithful where I was, and God would trust me with the next thing.
Laura Dugger: Well, and He's certainly gifted you in so many areas, and definitely teaching is one of those. I remember hearing you speak a while back on the table principle, and it was so impactful. I wasn't even married at the time, but I was able even to apply that immediately to my life. And it continues to now be foundational in our growing family. So would you just elaborate for our listeners what you mean by the table principle?
Devi Titus: Sure. It was in the year 2000. I had risen by that time, I guess you would call it risen, to a place where I was speaking to large conferences, many thousands. And I had just come home from a big millennial celebration, 4,000 women at a convention center. And instead of coming home exhilarated, thanking God for the opportunity, I was grateful, I came home saddened. [00:20:20] And the conference was fabulous. Nothing could have been better. Phenomenal prayer, spirit, worship, all of the components of a great gathering.
But the reason I was so dissatisfied, I had just received knowledge or information from the George Barnett group that the divorce rate was higher among church-attending families than non-church-attending families. And that troubled me so much. Larry and I really devoted ourselves to the church. Our churches grew. We were very relational. We saw people's lives transformed, their families strengthened. It was a fruitful season in our life. But there's a lot of sacrifices that you make when you're in ministry, and we made those willingly.
However, I felt like in the moment that we had wasted our time, like, what are we doing? And then I just sort of in my mind calculated the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were spent on that conference and multiply that times however many there are in a year just in America let alone in the world. [00:21:27] And I just said, God, there's got to be a principle that's in the word that can make a difference. And that's what propelled me to research.
The Lord brought the word table to my mind. I did a biblical research from the beginning to the end and I discovered that topic that I had never heard a sermon on, there were no books that I could find written on it at the time, it was always spiritualized and yet there was such a practicality about the table with supernatural.
So simultaneous to that I saw academic research that said, from our top universities, that people who eat at a table five times a week their children are less likely to be on drugs, experiments with sex, to be in depression, commit suicide. And the professionals said we don't know why, we just know it works. Something almost, their quotes, were mystical, magical, supernatural happens at the table. [00:22:29]
Well, in my biblical research, I thought, If they don't know why, God, you know why. You designed the human heart. So why is it? Why does it matter if we eat meals at a table? In my research, I found that God designed the very first table. This is in Exodus 25. And He designed it actually for the purpose of redemption.
This was the second piece of furniture in the tabernacle, and it's where the text says, "I want you to make a table," God's talking to Moses, "I want you to set the table with dishes, pitchers, plates, and bowls. And then on that table, I want you to put the bread of the presence."
The bread of the presence was the presence of Christ. And at the table is where the priest did the ritual. He brought the blood of the lamb to the bread of the presence at the table, went through a ritual of purification so he could go into the presence of God on your behalf and your sins would be forgiven. [00:23:29] That was 3,400 years ago.
So from that point on, with my research, I began thinking of common scriptures that we know. Psalm 23, "He prepares a table for me in the presence of my enemies. Revelations 4 says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I want to come in and eat with you."
And then I went through many, many, many verses and began seeing that shame is lifted. Mephibosheth, he was... well, that was abandonment, not shame. Mephibosheth was abandoned, he was crippled, his father died, and David said, "Go find him, I have an inheritance to give to him." And then David said, "You will always eat at my table."
Because money can't replace what abandonment creates. Abandonment… and we are moms abandoning our children within our own homes by being gone from them, leaving them alone, not engaging emotionally with them, texting them from room to room. We're disconnecting instead of connecting. Abandonment always affects self-confidence or self-esteem. And David restored that by saying, "You will always eat at my table."
We think about Jesus right now, He's preparing for us in eternity. What is He doing? He is preparing the married supper of the Lamb. So, we will sit at a table before Him before we would be at an altar with Him, or we think of bowing before Him, worshiping. No, we're going to dine with Him, eye to eye, face to face, and have conversation. To me, this is so phenomenal. [00:25:21]
So, in my research, I began connecting the way God developed the human soul. The eye is the entrance to the heart. The table is the only place that we sit eye-to-eye, face-to-face, 42 inches apart, and have a conversation. And that is connection. That creates deeper, more meaningful relationships. And it was God's intention from the design of the first table for it to be a place of redemption.
Of course, Jesus on the cross became the Lamb of God who takes away our sins so we never have to go through a priest again, but we come to the table with one another, we resolve our problems, we strengthen and encourage each other.
And then I looked and thought, well, my goodness, where do warring nations, where do they resolve and come to a treaty or an agreement? They always have their peace talks not in the palace parlors, but they have their peace talks at a table. [00:26:28]
So I believe that the table is truly the family altar. And while we don't have to quote scriptures while we're there We do want to remember that at the Last Supper Jesus broke the bread and took the cup. So once again 1,360 some years later we have Jesus with the cup and the bread or the blood and the bread the symbol of that of His body that would be broken the next day.
And Here's what he said, "As often as you do this, remember Me." He wasn't referring to a ritual at church once a month or once a week or every day. He said, "As often as you do this..." So I asked you a question: What is "this"? They were eating together a meal again and He said, "I won't be here for your next meals, but every meal that you eat, I want you to remember."
And He demonstrated redemption. I want you to remember because of what's gonna happen tomorrow with the bread and the blood, with My body, My flesh, and My blood. [00:27:36] There is no problem that you will go through that cannot be resolved. There is no sin you will commit that cannot be forgiven. And together as a family, eye to eye, face to face, I will be there with you at the table.
So from the beginning of history of redemption until right now, until eternity, at the marriage supper of the lamb, the table will always be significant. Does His presence dwell there? No. His presence now dwells in human hearts. From the cross, we never have to go through a priest. God's presence then moved from the temple in the Holy of Holies to the human hearts, we became His temple.
So when we sit at a table eye to eye, face to face, heart to heart, with vulnerability and openness, the supernatural presence of God within us in this environment that He created for purity, for redemption, will give us the wisdom, the knowledge, the discernment, the insight that we will need, the miracles that we will need to resolve whatever we're facing. [00:28:53]
So coming to the table is really essential in even the socialization and character development of children. It's where all character is formed. Children learn how to share, they learn how to be grateful, they learn, of course, how to pray, they learn how to wait their turn, they learn to respect authority, they learn to have conversation if you sit them at the table.
And it needs to start very young in a high chair with a little table eye-to-eye, face-to-face. Don't trap them in that chair and you go check your email or sit there on your phone and look up every now and then. But instead, eye-to-eye, face-to-face, talk to them and you will begin giving them a sense of significance, security, and love.
And those are the three essential emotions that every human soul must have satisfied in order to flourish. So the table's essential. There's the principle. [00:29:54]
Laura Dugger: That is so beautifully said and explained. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: I just love that you base all of this on biblical principles as well. From Psalm 23 that you were quoting earlier, I know you've given talks before about that conclusion of that chapter and how that ties into parenting, could you elaborate on that?
Devi Titus: Yes. Well, the conclusion of Psalm 23 is "surely goodness and mercy..." I love The Living. It says, unfailing love will follow me. The Living says, "...will pursue me" all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. So this is a conclusion or a result of what is contained in that chapter. Sometimes some chapters can become so familiar to us we lose the point or the content. [00:32:01]
This passage is often used to comfort people who are mourning and grieving a loss of a loved one at a funeral or a memorial service. And then we forget to really look at what is it saying. So the desire of every parent, when I complete, I have adult children, I have adult grandchildren. So we have three generations to look at from us. We have five living generations. But surely goodness and mercy will follow them all the days of their life. And my desire is that they will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. When I'm finished raising my family and they live on their own that is the result.
There are four action steps that are in Psalm 23. These are verbs. "He makes me, He leads me, He restores me and he guides me. So if you look at those four action steps and you look at them through the eyes of parenting, discipline is essential. [00:33:07]
So there are things in the beginning of developing the character of our children, you just have to make them do. An external discipline eventually creates an internal discipline or self-control. But first you have to control them on the outside before they have the ability to control themselves on the inside.
And the shepherd knew that. He makes us lie down. He doesn't give us a choice to keep running around in the dry pasture. When He has a green pasture, he said, "I want you here. Do it." And He makes us do it. So look at your parenting and see what are the areas that I'm casual, that I'm permissive in? It doesn't seem to really matter. Yes, it matters. It matters. There are behaviors you have to insist on with your children. You cannot allow them to disrespect. So this means respect people, respect property, and respect authority. [00:34:10] So He makes me. Discipline is essential.
He leads me. That's training by example. Do what I do. So look at your own life and say, "What are some of my habits that if they were exactly lived out by my children, would I be proud of them? Is this the way I want them to be?" The thing that comes to my mind initially is the way we talk, the tone of voice we use, the insensitivity that we have in the choice of our words. And we just so easily go by our emotions instead of considering: how are my words in this moment when I am feeling a lot of adrenaline pumping, how are my words or the tone of my voice going to translate to the people that I love?
So I think one of the biggest failures we have within our home is really monitoring how we talk to each other. But ask yourself, if my children become men and women who speak like this to their employer, the way I'm speaking to their father, is that going to be okay? [00:35:19] Because I am to lead you in the way you should go. And that means you should be able to exactly follow me.
Do I keep my word? I want my children to keep my word. So we can't always change every appointment, making excuses. Are they hearing you tell little lies of why you were late? You were late because you left late. You weren't late because of the traffic. So, you know, things like that, it adds up. Leading is example.
He restores me. So create an atmosphere in your home where failure is not devastation. Failure is a step to success. So if a child fails a test, you studied hard, but they still didn't do well. Restore them. Encourage them. Build them up. Work with them.
Find out what is the reason after we studied well that they panicked and didn't do well. You knew they knew the answers, but why was it that when they looked at that sheet of paper, they weren't able to put on the paper what they knew? [00:36:23] And restore their confidence. Restore your husband's confidence when he loses his job. Don't heap guilt on them because failure is essential to success.
And then he guides me. What's the difference in leading and guiding? Some translations repeat the word "leading". I love the separation with the two kinds of words. "To guide" is to instruct. If you were going through a museum and you had a personal guide, they would take you through that museum and they would give you instruction on things you may not know. So they would educate you.
I think it's important in the environment of our home that we don't bark out orders, give assignments to our children to do something when we've never really shown them how to do it. You're training bad habits. For example, if you require a child to make a bed, they need to be old enough to be able to make that bed well, number one. [00:37:25] Don't give that assignment to a four-year-old because their bed won't be made like you make it. They know it doesn't look like you do.
But don't affirm them for something that they can see isn't done well. Then you're affirming something that they need to rise to. Wait until they're old enough or age-appropriate, give them the assignment after you have shown them how. So sort of the formula is, you do it, let them watch you. Then you do it, let them do it with you. And then let them do it and you watch them, and then they do it on their own. So that's the step. And that's what guiding does. It's instructing. Here's why we do what we do.
That forms convictions in each other, and the end result of that is that their character is formed. They're now sensitive to others. They consider others more important than themselves. [00:38:27] They're good, and lovingkindness will follow them. They will be kind and loving to others because you've been kind and loving to them all the days of their life.
And with this kind of character, just remember, moms, character is formed before spirituality. So character is the soil Jesus was talking about. That when the seed of the Word of God is planted in good soil, it will take root and it will grow. But if the soil is hard, so if the character is hard, if the heart is hard, if it has been wounded and hurt, and they fear, they fear rejection, then the seed of the word of God can be sown in a hard heart, and it'll just grow a little bit, but when a storm in life comes, the word says that the roots didn't go deep, their character wasn't deep, and that word of God will fail. [00:39:25] It'll wither. It'll die. They won't remember it. It will not take root.
This is really, I think, one of the best parenting chapters in the Bible. I've never heard anyone else teach this passage on parenting as I do. Now others are because I've been able to sow this understanding in them. And I love the fact that this revelation passes on. It's awesome.
Laura Dugger: It is so awesome. You were the first one I heard it from. I just think it's incredible that you've talked about Psalm 23. And as a parenting chapter, it has the table principle in it.
Devi Titus: It does.
Laura Dugger: As we go back to the table principle, do you have any practical steps that each of us can take to accept this challenge to prepare our tables and hopefully invite others to dine with us?
Devi Titus: Oh, I do. Just one of the practical steps is when you unload your dishwasher, instead of putting your dishes back in a cupboard, put them right back on the table. You may not get to the table on that night. It might be two nights away but put the dishes back on the table. The family will know that it is your intention in our busy schedule to come back here. [00:40:41]
Research says an average of five times a week. We have 21 meals a week. Don't make this legalistic. Every meal doesn't have to be at the table. But you cannot go week after week without connecting. You must come to the table. So that's one quick practical way.
Another practical thing is if you are a working mom, your children are young, of course, you want to train each child. Everybody, it's a place of participation. If that is home, hopefully he will model it too. You can have a conversation with him. If you're a single mom, at the end of a meal, everybody takes the responsibility to carry their plate to the sink. If they're old enough, they can rinse their own plate, put it in the dishwasher. So everybody's participating in the principle. [00:41:30]
Then when you sit down to eat, be sure that the atmosphere at the table is a conversational atmosphere. What was the best part of your day, the worst part of your day? Did you get angry or lose it (at what)? And make it okay for them to express it. It is not a place of correction. Remember it is a place of purification and redemption.
So you can make your corrections other times, even if you hear something at the table that needs to be corrected. They may say something that you don't agree with, then just wait and later say, "You know, I was thinking about what you said at the table, and there's just some input that I want to give you regarding the way you were thinking on that that I might think would help you next time to respond differently. But don't pounce at the table when your children or your family share.
Another practical thing is utilize food services. Yes, we can have some simple, quick meals in 30 minutes. There are some recipes in my book that are very easy, very simple to assemble, and delicious and easy. [00:42:40] But if you need to stop at a deli on your way home and buy things that are already prepared that you just warm up, if you need to stop and do carry out, come home, put it in serving dishes and serve it at the table. So don't cancel coming to the table because you don't have time to cook.
The most important thing is eye-to-eye, face-to-face conversation, so be sure that's included. I think it's good to keep the table attractive, keep it changing, depending on the ages of your family, of course. By all means, use colorful paper plates and make it as cute as can be and quick to clean up on those busy nights, lots of homework, or you have a youth group or something to attend at 7, you can do that earlier. Or the night that you have something to attend could be your non-table night.
But I think preparation is, she prepares her meat... Proverbs says. Proverbs 9:2, She prepares her meat, she mixes her wine, she also sets her table. [00:43:47] So those are just some quick practical things.
Laura Dugger: Wow, Devi, these principles really are life-changing. What do you think are the best ways to pass these principles along to our children or people that we mentor?
Devi Titus: Well, of course, if it's children at home, they're going to learn these principles through experience. That's number one. I experienced it, and I learned them without knowing the biblical attachment to the verses, the principle. I learned it by doing it. And I loved it, so I wanted to do it. And it was many years that this was a value to us, but I didn't know why. Now I can articulate it.
But if you're mentoring someone of the next generation, never had this experience, they're busy, maybe they're young professionals, they have three young kids, their husband is building his career and not home a lot, and you may work shift work where it's really challenging. [00:44:42] I think the most important thing is just to show some simple passages in the scripture that I have shown you to develop a conviction that it's important. Once we have a conviction that something is important, we will be motivated to make it happen.
So at your table that is prepared, bring that person to have a conversation and let them experience it a while before you really, really teach it. And then unfold it a little at a time so it can be embedded. "Wow, this is real. This is true. We don't do it, but I want to do it." And I encourage them, you know what? If you don't quite believe it or think, oh, that's for some or not for others, but you're struggling with connection in your relationships, just try it and prove it.
The word can be proven. So try it and prove it and see. Be consistent and see what happens and test it. [00:45:46] I have hundreds, maybe thousands of stories of women who have done that with unbelievable results.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I'm sure everyone listening is just loving this information that you're sharing. So if they do want to connect further with you or purchase some of your resources to dive deeper into this content, where can they find you?
Devi Titus: Oh, thank you for asking. My name is Devi, D-E-V as in Victor, or Victorious, I. Titus, T-I-T-U-S. So Devititus.com. And in the store on my website you will see several books. The Home Experience book is a large pictorial coffee table book. How to Make Your Home a Place of Love and Peace. One chapter, the second chapter, includes the Table of Principles. That book is divided into essential principles, vital relationship skills, conflict management, and then practical subjects.
I also wrote a standalone read book. In other words, it's not a coffee table book. It's a regular book that you read that has all of my research on the table. It's called The Table Experience: Commemorative Edition: Discover What Creates Deeper, More Meaningful Relationships. That book will go into depth with academic professionals, doctors, literacy experts.
I married our academic research to biblical research to show to you in a case to prove that this is vital, it is important and it mustn't be ignored. And then woven into that text I give you practical ways to do it and tips and you know, some fun things as well. So, Devititus.com.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. I can vouch for it. Owning your book myself and reading through it and sharing with friends, it is beautiful, practical, and helpful.
Devi Titus: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: I mean that sincerely. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So, as my final question for you today, Devi, what is your savvy sauce? [00:48:09]
Devi Titus: My savvy sauce is to make every day special for the person that you love the most. So if that is a husband, just be sure that day doesn't close without doing something small or big that will let him know that he is special to you.
So how do I do that? Sometimes it's a little note on his mirror after he has gone to bed, or if he loves dark chocolate, it might be a piece of dark chocolate sitting at his sink. It could be a special kind word, especially expressing gratitude. It could be the way I prepare his meal. It can be a small thing, but when you reach beyond yourself and make somebody else feel special, it brings contentment to you during that day, even if you're facing really hard things. So that's my savvy sauce for you. Look outside of yourself and do something special for someone else.
Laura Dugger: I love that. And it seems that you definitely live this out. And even as you say in your book, I'm going to read a quote from it. [00:49:09] You say, "It has been the mission of my life to restore the dignity, to elevate the sanctity, and to return people to the essential principles of home that allow people to flourish." I just want to say to you, well done, and just encourage you, Devi, that you are a woman of your word, and you're definitely having an impact with that exact mission. So, thank you for sharing that with us today.
Devi Titus: Oh, Laura, you're so encouraging, and it was a real honor to be able to speak into the hearts and the lives of your listeners. Thank you for giving me this opportunity.
Laura Dugger: Oh, my pleasure.
If you want to enter for your chance to win one of Devi Titus' beautiful coffee table books, titled Home Experience, then make sure you head over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on the "Giveaways" tab for all the information you need to know for how to enter.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? [00:50:09] It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:51:10]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:52:11]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Friday Oct 05, 2018
Friday Oct 05, 2018
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Hey friends, we wouldn't be here without our sponsors. If you're interested in sponsoring an episode of The Savvy Sauce, please reach out to us at info@thesavvysauce.com.
Today I want to say a big thank you to our awesome sponsor, Leman Property Management in Central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. Make sure you go check them out today online. You can look them up at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure and link to all of this in the show notes. Thanks for the sponsorship.
Today is our final episode for this special Chick-fil-A week and we get to chat with two health and wellness experts, Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe. [00:01:24]
Leslie is married with one son and she works as an exercise specialist and group fitness instructor for the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center.
Vasu is married and she has one daughter and one son on the way. She is a registered dietitian and certified health education specialist. She also works with the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center.
And together, these ladies are going to share helpful ways to incorporate simple changes so we can become the healthiest versions of ourselves. I hope you enjoy.
Hey, ladies, welcome to The Savvy Sauce.
Leslie Sexton: Hi, so glad to be here.
Vasu Thorpe: Hi.
Laura Dugger: Glad to have both of you. And since we have two of you on our interview today, Leslie, let's start with you. Will you tell us a bit about yourself and your current career?
Leslie Sexton: Absolutely. So I'm an exercise specialist at the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center in Atlanta right now. AI started teaching group fitness classes in college and just found a passion for encouraging people to move more. [00:02:23]
Eventually, while here at Chick-fil-A Wellness, I became a certified personal trainer. So now I get to help people just find a healthy approach to living a healthy lifestyle. It's something that I just love doing. I've been here for about 10 years and so I've got to build a lot of great relationships along the way and learn a lot too through teaching and personal training as well.
My biggest reason now is I'm a new mom and I want to pass along these healthy behaviors in the way that my husband and I are living out a healthy lifestyle to our son, Gibson. So that's a little bit about me.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Thanks for sharing. Vasu, it's your turn. Can you share some about yourself and explain how you're connected to Chick-fil-A as well?
Vasu Thorpe: Yes. I'm Vasu Thorpe. I'm a wife, mom, and I'm a registered dietitian. I currently work as a dietitian for the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center remotely out of Birmingham, Alabama. So I spend a lot of my time on the phone meeting with operators, staff, and their spouses one-on-one and walking with them through their health journey. [00:03:31]
At a young age, I kind of saw an interest in nutrition when I saw my mom start to change recipes to help lower my dad's cholesterol. I think a seed was planted then that made me interested in nutrition. So I pursued a degree in nutrition at LSU and then have been a dietician since 2009 and have worked with the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center for the last four years.
I have a two-year-old daughter, and we're expecting a baby boy in about nine weeks. And just as Leslie shared, we're excited to just share with you our personal stories, but also a little bit of our expertise with our backgrounds in nutrition and exercise.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, I'm sure everybody wants to say congratulations. We're excited for those nine weeks ahead.
Vasu Thorpe: Thanks.
Laura Dugger: Some listeners may not associate Chick-fil-A with healthy living. So what are some reasons that make Chick-fil-A a surprisingly healthy choice?
Vasu Thorpe: So really the U.S. Department of Agriculture, otherwise known as the USDA, recommends that about half of our plate at lunch and dinner is fruits and vegetables, a quarter of it protein, and a quarter of it grains, and then a serving of dairy. [00:04:43]
And so when you think about those components, the fruits, the vegetables, the protein, the grains, and the dairy, you realize, hey, I can find all of these components at Chick-fil-A to create a well-balanced plate. Some examples would be if you got the grilled nuggets as your protein and then the side salad and the fruit cup as your vegetables and your fruit and the yogurt as your dairy. That's really a well-balanced meal.
I think a lot of times when we think Chick-fil-A or we think fast food, we think we can't be healthy there. But really Leslie and I spend a lot of our time talking with operators that spend most of their day at Chick-fil-A, showing them how, hey, you can still be healthy and eat Chick-fil-A, which is a lot of times helpful for people to hear when you're on the go.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's go a little bit broader now. What are some of the best reasons in general to get healthy?
Vasu Thorpe: You know, a big piece of this is knowing your why. I know that is a little bit of a buzzword these days. [00:05:43] But we always ask people why their health is important to them or why they have the goals that they have before we even get into the nitty-gritty of, hey, what are you eating or what does your exercise look like in this season? We find that it's easy to lose motivation unless you have that why in front of you.
Currently for me, I know it's important for me to take care of myself well so I can best serve my family and also have a healthy pregnancy. I know I can't take care of others well if I don't take care of myself well.
And I think as moms and parents, we tend to put everybody else in front of us, but I think it's important to remember that ‘why’. Why is it important that we take care of ourselves?
And long term for me, my why is I don't want anything that I've done to prevent me from enjoying my family. So 20 years from now if my daughter wants to go on a long hike, I don't want to say no because I haven't taken care of myself well. So that would be number one, like, know your why. [00:06:41]
Number two, and I know a lot of you that are listening here are parents, your kids can be a great reason to get healthy and they could be a big piece of your ‘why’. For the reason that I shared before, but also Leslie and I spend a lot of time talking with people and realize that a lot of the habits that we have as adults come from what we did growing up as kids.
For example, if you grew up eating dessert after every meal or after lunch and dinner, then you kind of expect that as an adult. And it's a hard habit to change. So, you know, while these things are fine and there's something good about having dessert after a meal and sharing that with your family, just know that the constant behaviors that you have in your home can really help to change the trajectory of your child's health because what they see is normal when it comes to healthy living.
Leslie, do you have anything to kind of share to that as well?
Leslie Sexton: Yeah, I can just kind of even piggyback on that. Like I said, I'm a new mom. [00:07:43] Gibson, he's about a year and a half. So it really clicked now that I'm a parent to a toddler. He mimics everything I do. I know I've got watching eyes on me.
I even remember growing up and watching my mom go on diet after diet and felt a little bit like I should do that too. So I was on my first diet when I was in the second grade. I love my mom dearly and she didn't know what she was doing. She was doing her best.
And that's all I aim to do and encourage people to do. I mean there are days that I don't take the best care of myself and I know I'm not my best and I get frustrated easily and I just don't feel well but I just kind of draw on those feelings. And then I know if I don't take care of myself I'm not going to be able to give my best to my husband or my son or all the other things that are important to me even outside of my work setting. [00:08:42]
So I just kind of echo what you're saying, Vasu, and encourage people to change the perspective. "Why do I want to get healthy? What do I need to do?" I think people kind of focus on the habits off the bat, but really look and see what their overall why is, because that's going to keep you motivated when things get tough or when you don't feel like exercising.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. And then with both of your professional backgrounds, which health questions are you most frequently asked?
Leslie Sexton: So the question I get most often is, how much exercise do I really need? The American College of Sports Medicine recommends adults get at least 150 minutes of moderate-intensity exercise per week. So this can be met through 30 to 60 minutes of maybe brisk walking or a Zumba class or swimming for five days per week.
Or you can cut your time, maybe go for 20 to 30 minutes of more vigorous intensity, only three days per week. [00:09:43] So think of your high-intensity interval training, maybe you're doing some running intervals. You know, everyone has their favorite thing they like to do.
Then I tell people it's good also to get in at least two days of resistance training. And as parents, if you have younger kids, you're probably picking them up and putting them down throughout the day. So you are getting something in, even if you're not in an actual gym. So rest assured in that.
So what does this look like in your life? So it really depends on your overall goals. But whether you're just getting started with exercise or it's already part of your healthy lifestyle journey, I personally have learned that something is better than nothing. You create a habit even if it's a couple minutes a day doing something.
Now, if you have a more sports-specific goal, say you want to run a half marathon, doing something over nothing here and there is probably not going to set you up for success. But if we're talking about overall health and well-being, I want to challenge you to really just kind of tweak your mindset. Instead of focusing on the word exercise, focus on the word movement. [00:10:47] So how much are you moving throughout your day?
If we look back at the recommendations, say we're aiming for 30 minutes, five days a week of moderate-intensity exercise. And that can look like a 10-minute dance party in the morning with your kiddos, having a good time. And maybe after lunch, it's a 15-minute game of soccer in the backyard. You're running around, you're kicking the ball.
And then, you know, maybe in the evening, once the kids have gone down, you do a five-minute ab challenge. So you're holding plank for maybe 45 seconds three to four times. I mean you've accumulated 30 minutes in your entire day and you didn't have to go in and find this chunk of time. That can sometimes be the biggest barrier for some of us.
So again, how much exercise do I really need really depends on your goals. Ideally, you're getting about 30 minutes five days a week, but we've got some other tips coming along for you guys as you figure out what this looks like for you in your day. [00:11:49]
And then Vasu, you might be able to speak a little bit more on this as well around the nutrition side.
Vasu Thorpe: Absolutely. So the number one question I get is hands down about the fad diets that are out there. Recently that's probably been the ketogenic diet or intermittent fasting. And while there's medical reasons why those two diets or fad diets can be beneficial, it's not necessarily recommended for the average American.
So my response typically to people that ask about these fad diets is always, when it comes to nutrition, do what you can do for the rest of your life. We often think we have to start something new with nutrition or diet, but in reality, consistency is key. We want to be able to stay consistent with a few behaviors for the rest of our life. Drinking water, eating plenty of fruits and vegetables, eating consistently throughout the day. [00:12:46]
I think a lot of times we're looking for a quick fix or something trendy. But really, like I said, when it comes to nutrition, consistency is key. There's no magic pill or weight loss plan. And if there was, then I think Leslie and I wouldn't have the jobs that we have.
Laura Dugger: Now, what are some of the most common excuses you hear from people about why they choose to neglect their health in both areas of diet and exercise?
Leslie Sexton: Yeah, so from the exercise side, I get the excuse of "I just don't have enough time" pretty often. As a new parent, I can totally get that, even more so than when I was trying to give advice to moms when I wasn't yet a mom. I think it comes down to being resourceful with our time.
A couple of practical things I think we can think through, kind of going back to where I shared initially, changing your mindset from "I need to find this chunk of 30 minutes to exercise" to more of how can I move more during my day, even if I'm accumulating movement over the day. [00:13:48]
So my go-to, if I only have a couple minutes, I'll maybe do one round of 10 push-ups, 10 squats, 10 mountain climbers. I'll rest for 30 seconds, catch my breath, and then I'll go again. And if I only have five to eight minutes, I can still work up a sweat. So, not having this chunk of dedicated time. I think 30 minutes gets in people's heads, but it can be an accumulation of time.
Something I've enjoyed as a parent, now that Gibson is basically running everywhere, I get him involved in the fun too. We'll go outside, we'll run, we'll play tag, I'll get down and do some push-ups. He's kind of crawling all over me. I'm pretty sure it's comical for passers-by, but I'm making it work for me.
I'm also going back to what Vasu said. I'm modeling healthy behaviors for him. So he sees Mommy get down and do push-ups. I talk about how Mommy's strong when she does push-ups, and he sees that I'm enjoying my time. [00:14:51]
Now, you know, if you have multiple children, this may look a little bit different. Or if you have older children, you can get out and let them come up with some activities that you guys get involved in together. Again, it's just establishing those healthy behaviors.
Then sometimes I just wake up 30 minutes before I know everyone else is because I need a little mommy-focused exercise time or whatever that personal refreshment is for you that you need for your physical and mental health. And just sometimes I got to make it happen before everyone else wakes up.
But at the end of the day, I don't beat myself up. If I plan to work out, it's okay. I know I can't anticipate every moment of every day or every tantrum or sickness or last minute something that pops up because they happen. So I think at the end of the day, if I can say, you know, I did my best and the best that I can, then I can be good with that and I can move on. [00:15:47]
So work with what you've got. Every day might look a little bit different and it may not be as traditional as it was when you were solo and had all this time and when you were younger to do a 30-minute, 60-minute workout. And that's okay too. Meet yourself where you're at and give yourself some grace along the way. But definitely get it and use your time and maximize on it.
I know, Vasu, you may have some tips on the nutrition side as well.
Vasu Thorpe: Yes, I think to Leslie's point, a lot of what I hear is also "I don't have enough time" or "I'm too far gone and nothing's going to help me at this point". I think a lot of this goes back to people thinking that nutrition has to be a big to-do. You know, that it has to be this big plan, this Whole30 diet, this ketogenic diet, you know, I have to rethink everything in my pantry. But really, we just want you to start small and just build consistency and you'll feel your best.
For me, in busy seasons, I know I can't necessarily get all my fruits and vegetables in, but I do try to drink my water, try to stay consistent with that, and I try to eat healthy snacks between meals. [00:16:54] And that is all I can mentally commit to sometimes in those busy seasons, but I know that those two things will help me have consistent energy throughout the day, but also help me eat appropriate portions when it does come to mealtime.
Also, if time is an issue, then get your family involved to help you and kill two birds with one stone. Whether that's they're involved in the meal planning or choosing the recipes or the grocery shopping, it can be really fun for kids to be a part of that process. And they're more willing to try out the foods when they're involved.
So maybe go to the grocery store and have each of your kids pick out one new fruit or vegetable that they want to try that week and pick out a recipe for that and make it together. It may seem daunting at first, but it's a fun way to spend quality time with them, but also to take care of yourself well.
And then my last tip, and this is what I share with a lot of people because it works for me, is set a timer for meal prep. So all of us have about 15 minutes at some point in the week that we're free or that we're checking social media or Instagram or something and we could be doing something. [00:18:01] Maybe have a better use of our time.
So set a timer for 15 minutes and maybe cut up as many fruits and vegetables as you can for that week ahead or go ahead and hard boil some eggs. It's amazing what you can do in just a short amount of time, as 15 minutes, when you just dedicate that time to meal prep. And that will help set you up for success for the week ahead.
Laura Dugger: Those are some awesome practical tips. I want to focus in on one that you mentioned. Maybe we can just cover a few of these common health topics. But you mentioned drinking more water. So, what are some reasons why we should consider doing something as simple as drinking more water?
Vasu Thorpe: So about 50 to 70 percent of your body is made up of water. So, that's number one reason why it's probably the most important thing that we put in. You know, if more than half of your body is made up of it, then it's probably the number one thing that your body needs. [00:19:03]
The USDA really recommends that you listen to your thirst to determine your water intake. But for my clients and for me, what has really worked is to aim for about half of your body weight in ounces of water. So if somebody's about 150 pounds, they're aiming for about 75 ounces of water.
And sometimes it's just helpful to have that number or that goal that you're shooting for. And what that looks like is a lot of times keeping a water bottle in front of you. I know days that I'm home with my very active two-year-old, I forget to stay hydrated unless I have a water bottle with me because I'm so focused on taking care of her. So that helps to serve as a reminder.
Sometimes it's helpful for people to put a little reminder in their phone to hydrate every few hours. But especially in the winter months actually, these upcoming months, I think in the summer it's a little bit more intuitive to stay hydrated but your body needs the same amount of water in the colder months and so I think it's important to make that a number one priority. [00:19:55]
And you'll feel such a difference in your day. I know people have said that their skin glows more when they're hydrated well or that they're able to eat appropriate portions at their meals because they're hydrated well. There's like thousands of reasons why drinking water is important to our health. But I would say that if that's not something that you're doing consistently right now, put that at the top of your priorities.
Laura Dugger: Another topic that we hear a lot about is the importance of getting better sleep. Would you all agree with that?
Leslie Sexton: Yes. I think we can all say when we get a restful night's sleep, we feel our best. And when we don't, we probably feel a little moody the next day. Maybe it's hard to concentrate or focus. I know for me, if I'm going on like five, six hours sleep, I can quickly lose my cool, especially with my family. And that's not what I want to do. I don't want to snap at them. [00:20:52]
The American Academy of Sleep Medicine states that adults ages 18 to 60 should sleep seven or more hours per night on a regular basis for optimal health. If you're waking up feeling well-rested, then you're probably hitting this. So you might be good here. But if you're waking up, you're feeling groggy...
I realize this is easier said than done, especially when you have kiddos. It's going to be important, you know, whatever it is for you... say you typically sleep maybe six hours and you're close to that seven-hour mark, that's recommended. You know, don't just go to bed an hour earlier, because that can really throw things off if you're used to going to bed at a certain time.
Maybe try going to bed 15 minutes earlier and sleeping in 15 minutes more. And then you just increased your overall rest by 30 minutes. And slowly toy with the minutes from there until you're about seven. [00:21:49]
Now, me, I know I need eight. Like, I can just feel it. There are some nights it happens, and then there are some nights it doesn't. Whether it's I'm just woken up, I can't go to sleep, or my son gets up in the middle of the night. I think it really depends on your season of life. But within your control, you should be going to bed and kind of waking up around the same time each day and set that rhythm for your sleep. And then you're going to feel your best when you wake up.
Laura Dugger: Let's cover another topic as well. Will you elaborate on the importance of eating more nutritious foods?
Vasu Thorpe: Yes. We've talked a little bit about fruits and vegetables, but those are definitely key. Getting in plenty of fruits and vegetables is so important because these foods have a lot of fiber, which has tremendous benefits to your body. Fiber helps you lower your cholesterol, helps you stay full, and it stabilizes your blood sugar and so much more. [00:22:44]
These fruits and vegetables are also important because they contain lots of vitamins and minerals to ensure your immune system stays strong. I think fruits and vegetables need to be key. And I think that's something that even a lot of times as parents our child doesn't like green beans, so we stop eating green beans as a family. Or our child doesn't like broccoli, so we stop offering broccoli.
But I've heard that it takes almost 15 exposures to a fruit or a vegetable, or any food actually, for a child to even be willing to put it in their mouth. So that's a lot of different exposures. And oftentimes we stop after the second or third exposure. So number one, I'd say keep exposing yourself and your family to different fruits and vegetables. Whether they eat it or not is not your responsibility. I think the big piece there is just exposing your whole family to different fruits and vegetables.
Number two is protein. I know a lot of you probably have heard how important this is. I feel like it's kind of been the buzzword in the nutrition world over the last several years. [00:23:49] But the reason that protein is so important is because it's vital in helping your body build and repair cells and body tissue. It's a key part in a lot of the processes of your body, so your immune response, the production of hormones, fluid balance, a lot of these things that we're not thinking about on a daily basis, but that need to happen to keep us functioning well.
I think it's important when we talk about protein to realize, hey, while protein is important, we don't need to eat a huge piece of meat at every meal to see the impact of it on our body. I think I shared just earlier have a source of protein making up about a fourth of your plate. That's not a huge portion of meat. And it could even be something as simple as Greek yogurt or even a plant-based protein such as beans or lentils. It doesn't always have to be a big piece of chicken or meat. [00:24:41]
The last kind of nutrient or nutritious foods that I would focus on are foods that have healthy fats in them. There was a time, probably when I was in college where people were so afraid of fat. I think everything was fat-free at that time. You'd see fat-free cheese and fat-free chips and, you know, fat-free everything.
Now more research has come out actually about the importance of some of these unsaturated fats, which are the healthy fats. They really help protect your body against heart disease and they help increase that good cholesterol, that HDL level, which then in turn, you know, helps to become a negative risk factor for heart disease.
I think the important piece here is trying to start to incorporate more of these healthy fats into your day. Some examples of healthy fats are things like salmon and walnuts and almonds, avocados, using olive oil as your main cooking oil. Incorporating these healthy fats into your meals also helps those meals to be more satisfying. [00:25:41]
You may be wondering, what does that look like when I'm on the go? And we talked a little bit about what that looks like with the Chick-fil-A menu. But similar to what I shared before, you can get the lean protein in with any of the grilled products. And you have lots of choices for fruits and vegetables with the different salads and the fruit cup. So you can really accomplish incorporating a lot of these foods in even when you're at Chick-fil-A.
Laura Dugger: That's great. What are some reasons why we all should move more?
Leslie Sexton: Yeah, this is a great question. Exercise has been shown to help in preventing cardiovascular disease and other preventable diseases like Type 2 diabetes. It can help your risk for osteoporosis. And as women, we are more at risk for osteoporosis than men. You know, generally, if it runs in your family, you have a risk of also having it.
You know, we can control how much we move, you know, at the end of the day, you've done everything that you can to prevent any kind of disease. I know that's a big part for me. The list is long, unfortunately, for things that I'm at risk for. [00:26:50] And so I know I can choose the healthier option to eat. I can get my best rest. I can move more and exercise and get my heart pumping and strengthen my muscles to do everything that I can do to be the healthiest version of me that I can be.
I will say when it comes to movement and exercise, just like with nutrition, there are fitness trends. They come and they go. But ultimately, I encourage you to find what you enjoy. You know, if it's step aerobics, then Heck, you know, it's okay if step aerobics is not trendy right now. You go for it. You know, you're more likely to stick with it if you look forward to doing it.
If you don't enjoy boot camp and you're trying to go to this boot camp class and it's just so hard to go, it's probably because you're not looking forward to it. And just like with what Vasu's mentioned about the way you eat, you want to do that for the long haul and you want to sustain that for your lifetime.
You know, the trends or what you enjoy may come and go or what you have time for, but you want to be able to move for the rest of your life and get out and walk or hike with your grandkids down the road. [00:28:01] So I encourage really, number one, find what you like to do because you're more likely to stick with it.
So what are some of these options? Cardio workouts. I mentioned the moderate-intensity cardio goal. In the beginning, you want about 150 minutes per week. This is everything from walking to hiking and swimming and Maybe you enjoy running.
I like cycling classes right now. They're just fun. I like the social element. And so on Saturdays, my husband knows he's going to watch our son so that I can go get a cycling class in. That's another thing too, you know, getting your spouse on board, working together toward common goals and supporting each other. And it adds that level of accountability. So you're both on the same, on the same page there. I found that to be super helpful.
Then I've mentioned strength training workouts. [00:28:57] You can do so much with your own body weight. I mentioned that quick go-to that I like to do with push-ups and squats and mountain climbers. You don't need any equipment. You can even find yourself out on the playground with the kids, right? They're playing on the jungle gym and you're doing some tricep dips over there on the side of the jungle gym. Maybe you're doing a little monkey bar action along the way. Again, it doesn't have to be this traditional gym setting. It definitely can, but it does not have to be.
Really big here at the Chick-fil-A Wellness Center is yoga. So yoga is unique. It's that mind-body approach to fitness where yoga offers this mental and physical connectedness through intentional breathing and you're in various poses throughout. So you'll see the benefits of just slowing down and you'll also enhance your flexibility and strength along the way.
Those are a couple of just the difference between cardio and strength and the mind-body classes. [00:30:00] But at the end of the day you got to find what you enjoy doing so that you're more likely to stick with it.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Are there any areas of health and wellness that I've neglected to ask you about?
Vasu Thorpe: Well, I think we can talk a little bit about the mindset behind nutrition and exercise. As Leslie and I have shared, we are on the phone a lot with operators and Chick-fil-A staff and spouses talking about nutrition and exercise.
But we always remind people that nutrition and exercise are intended for good. [00:31:58] You know, they're intended to make us feel good. They're intended to give us energy for the day. But a lot of times that we feel guilt or stress around nutrition and exercise because maybe we're not doing it to the capacity that we want to, or it just hasn't been a very important piece in a certain season of our life.
I think it's always just important to remember, hey, nutrition and exercise are intended for good. So anytime it's causing me stress or it's causing me guilt is a time to kind of sit back and reflect on what's realistic for that season ahead.
Laura Dugger: I love that. So we've covered a broad range. Do you have any practical tips for how we can make progress in any or all of these areas that we've discussed so far?
Leslie Sexton: Absolutely. So we live in this age of technology, which is great when it comes to resources and ways to track our progress. Many of you might already have a fitness tracker. [00:32:56] Those of us that are driven by numbers and kind of want to know where we stand, there's so many options out there.
Fitbit is a popular one. I know a number of people have the fitness tracker Watch Duo, right? So the Apple watches, the Garmin, the Polar devices. So this is a great way to see how many steps you're taking. And ideally, you're getting about 10,000 steps a day. That's accumulated, right? Like it's not all at one time.
A couple of apps that I really enjoy, the Nike Training Club app. It's a free app. It has workouts from 10 minutes to 45 minutes. So no matter how much time you have you have an option to go to?
Sworkit is another Fitness app. So there's so many great things out there again. I think it comes down to what you enjoy doing ultimately.
So both Sworkit and Nike Training Club involve cardio and strength. So you can get one workout in that focuses on all of that, which is great. [00:33:56]
Some of the YouTube channels that I recommend to participants I work with and that I personally enjoy, Yoga with Adrienne is great. She's got everything on there, all sorts of different lengths of time of yoga if that's something that you're kind of wanting to get into or maybe you just need an option for home.
POPSUGAR Fitness is another one. I love to dance and so they have everything from dance videos to bar videos to your good old boot camp videos. I think anybody can find anything that they're looking for as well.
Then on the more mindfulness approach, we haven't really talked about slowing down and intentionally breathing as much. I've talked about it a little bit with the yoga classes, but there's a lot of great apps out there like Headspace and Calm that can really help if you're just needing a moment. Maybe you have a couple minutes to yourself. Again, these are just apps that you can download to your device. [00:34:56]
Some of them even have kind of getting ready for bed experiences. So if you find it's really hard to unwind at the end of the day after the kids are down and the kitchen is clean or whatever you've had to do, the laundry's folded, you're laying in bed and you just can't turn your brain off, they offer a couple of just nice relaxation approaches that can really help you settle down for the end of the day.
Laura Dugger: Those are great suggestions. We'll definitely link to those in our show notes in case somebody is driving or can't write down all the apps right now.
Leslie Sexton: And Vasu, you may have a couple for nutrition as well.
Vasu Thorpe: Yes. MyFitnessPal and Lose It! are two great apps that you can use just to keep yourself accountable and aware of what you're eating throughout the day. I always tell people with both of those apps or any calorie-counting app. You know, you're not going to be perfect with counting your calories unless you're carrying around a gram scale everywhere you go. [00:35:53]
So really those apps aren't necessarily intended to be perfect calorie counters, but more so just accountability or awareness apps that help you to realize, hey, what did I eat throughout the day? I know with kids, it's hard to even remember what you ate. And so a lot of times, if we're not seeing the progress that we're wanting to see, it can be helpful.
Then a few websites that I think are helpful for moms or parents in general for recipes and lunchbox ideas are Holley Grainger, Real Mom Nutrition, and Skinnytaste. Those are three that I frequent when I meal plan but also as I'm thinking through "Hey, what are some pool snack ideas for the summertime or what are some cool Christmas treats to make with my kids that are still nutritious?"
Laura Dugger: Those are great practical tips. Again, we'll put all those in the show notes. And now Vasu, will you walk us through what a healthy day looks like with food?
Vasu Thorpe: Absolutely. [00:36:53] So ideally we want you within an hour of waking up to have something with high protein in it for breakfast. For me, I love breakfast burritos. So scramble two eggs, add some spinach, salsa, and a sprinkle of cheese, and put it in a whole wheat tortilla. It's a super satisfying breakfast. If you're at Chick-fil-A or you're on the run, grab an egg white grill and a fruit cup.
Now, some of you may be saying, hey, I really don't have time to make eggs in the morning or make a breakfast burrito. And I think that's totally fine. It could be just that you grab a handful of almonds or a hard-boiled egg, just something within that first hour to kickstart your metabolism and then you can maybe eat something a little bit more satisfying later.
Then depending on the time between breakfast and lunch, you know, sometimes you may need a snack like a piece of string cheese or an apple and some peanut butter. And for most of us parents, we have those things around at home.
And then for lunch, I say keep it simple. You know, do a turkey sandwich with carrots and hummus or have some leftovers. If you have some leftover chicken and vegetables and rice, you know, have leftovers for lunch. [00:38:05] Or even make your own little lunchable. You know, put some deli meat, cheese, crackers, some raw vegetables and ranch dip, you know, a little to-go box, and have that on the go.
After lunch, before dinner, you probably want to have another high-protein snack because at that point it's been more than three or four hours since your last meal. So you may start to feel that energy level dip. And typically in the afternoon is when our kids eat snacks. So that's a great time to eat your own snack.
Again, that could be nuts, that could be hummus and vegetables, it could be Greek yogurt, it could be another cheese stick. We're just looking for something that has a little bit of protein and that's going to get you until dinner time so that you're not so hungry when you're cooking dinner and feeling like you have the munchies and want to eat everything in your pantry as you're cooking.
For dinner, I think it goes back to what I shared with you originally. Try to make half your plate fruits and vegetables. Make that really the key point of your dinner meal. [00:39:03] At our house, we love simple meals like, you know, chicken or salmon, potatoes and green beans. But we also love using things like cauliflower rice as a base for making burrito bowls or stuffing zucchini with different toppings as a fun way to get more vegetables in. I can certainly link some of the recipes that we enjoy in our home.
But for me, really for dinner, I try to just make sure dinner includes a protein, a grain or a starch, and a vegetable. I think it's important when we think about just our day in general that we pay more attention to getting in these food groups than trying to create a big entree or create a big to-do.
Just ask yourself, hey, what's my protein at this snack? Or what's my fruit or vegetable at this dinner? Try to just make sure that you're covering the components and don't get overwhelmed with trying to make a pot roast every day.
Another tip as far as nutrition goes is eat what's in season. Usually things that are in season are a little bit cheaper, but they also taste better. [00:40:03] So go to your local farmer's market with your kids and find some fruits and vegetables to try that are in season.
And like I shared before, get your family involved in making a meal plan for the week. Let them choose the vegetable for each day. And so that will make it a more enjoyable process and they'll look forward to dinner time as well.
Laura Dugger: I love all these ideas. Thanks for sharing. If you had to sum it up, what is the most important thing each of us can do today to get started?
Vasu Thorpe: So, so far Leslie and I have shared what our plate should look like, the importance of exercise and water and sleep. But what is the one thing that resonated with you the most, something that is doable yet challenging?
For me right now, I'm working on consistently getting in my water intake and finding 30 minutes a day to intentionally move. That means I have to look at my calendar ahead of time, communicate with my spouse, and figure out when would work best. [00:41:01]
So what is that one behavior that we shared today that you said, hey, I think I can work on that. That seems doable in this season.
Also, when it comes to getting started, just give yourself a lot of grace in this whole process. Some of these habits that you're trying to change, things that you've done your whole life. So it's not going to change overnight. It may not even change over the course of a month. But try to be consistent and just make sure that you're taking steps in the right direction.
Laura Dugger: We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And ideally, we want to know your most beneficial and practical habits that we can replicate. So, ladies, what is your savvy sauce?
Leslie Sexton: So, for me, it comes back to just keeping my why in front of me. If I can keep in front of me why it's important to make healthy decisions around nutrition and exercise, then I'm probably going to make the better decision for me. [00:42:00] So I will put it on my calendar because if it's not on my calendar, it's probably not going to happen.
And specifically for exercise, instead of, you know, quote-unquote, putting in workout, I put it as my why. For me, it's my energy break. Because I know if I don't take time out to sweat a little bit, my energy is going to be a little bit lower than if I hadn't worked out.
And I have a plan set for the week. If I go in blind and I'm like, hey, whenever time permits itself, I'm going to work out, I'm probably not going to do it because I haven't thought through what am I going to do if I only have 10 minutes, right? Or did I ask my husband if he's cool with keeping the kids or get a sitter for when I want to go to a group fitness class down the road.
So I think, you know, putting it on my calendar first and foremost and then having a plan of action. And it's okay to have a plan A and a plan B in case plan A falls through. But at the end of the day, if you're not moving, just start moving, right? And if you're moving, see if you can move a little bit more doing what you already do throughout your day. [00:43:06]
Laura Dugger: I love it.
Vasu Thorpe: For me, when it comes to nutrition, the filter that I use around making decisions around food is that food should either nourish my body or nourish my soul. The things that we've talked about today is really how food nourishes my body, what makes me feel my best, what gives me my best energy. Sometimes I think it's important to have s'mores in the backyard with your kids, or if you go apple picking, that you make an apple pie with them after because it's a memory that nourishes your soul. So I think that's an important filter to use. Does this food nourish my soul or does this food nourish my body?
Where we have to be careful with nutrition is when we sneak candy in when no one is looking or eat a bag of chips by ourselves in the car. That is typically not nourishing to our soul or body. To me, thinking through whether food nourishes my body or soul is just a helpful filter to go through.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is awesome. I've never thought of it that way. [00:44:06] Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us. I've learned so much today, and I'm so excited that we all had a chance to chat. So thanks for inspiring each of us to make a move toward a healthier lifestyle, and I wish you both the best.
Leslie Sexton: Oh, thanks, Laura. It's our pleasure.
Vasu Thorpe: Thank you for having us.
Laura Dugger: Hi friends, we wanted to share our love of Chick-fil-A with you, so head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and find our "Giveaways" tab, where you're going to find more information to enter to win a giveaway for a Chick-fil-A gift card. This is for a limited time only, so head over today.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:45:10] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. [00:46:14] I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:47:21]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Wednesday Oct 03, 2018
Wednesday Oct 03, 2018
13. Balancing Family, Career, and Health with Leslie Neslage
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 4:2 NIV “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.”
Leslie Neslage is the Category Lead of Menu & Packaging for Corporate Chick-fil-A but she will tell you she is first a daughter of God, wife to Stephen, and mother to two children and one dog. Leslie is a passionate speaker with plenty of practical examples of ways to flourish at work and at home.
Leslie’s 5 Important Roles:
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Spiritual Being– Follow God’s example in everything you do, live a life filled with love for others
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Wife – I am a wife Stephen adores and is excited to come home to at the end of the day
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Mom - I am a faithful Parent my kids want to hug.
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Chick-fil-A Leader – I am a Chick-fil-A Leader who inspires and brings out the best in others
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Athlete – I am an athlete who thrives off exercise, clean eating and journaling
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois. And with over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure and put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship.
Hey everybody! As you already may know, my husband is the owner-operator of our local Chick-fil-A. And because it's a family business, I have worked with him for the past 8 years in various positions, ranging from a front counter cashier to director of HR and marketing in his restaurant. [00:01:17]
There have been multiple Chick-fil-A trainings that I have attended, where Leslie was the instructor. She is approachable, warm, and full of energy and fun. So I reached out to see if she would be willing to join us today. So it is my privilege to get to introduce you to Leslie Neslage.
Hello, Leslie.
Leslie Neslage: Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me today.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. So excited to chat with you. Can you just start off by telling us a little bit more about yourself?
Leslie Neslage: Absolutely. I'm Leslie and I am married to Steven. We have been married for eight years. I'm originally from the Midwest. I grew up in South Dakota and Minnesota, but I've been in the South since 2002. I went to Auburn University, which is where I met my husband, and started at Chick-fil-A in Atlanta in 2006.
We have our sassy minx, Helen. She is two. And last December, we had our son, George. He's my little cherub, I call him. And then we have a labradoodle, Stella, who is our firstborn, but she's not getting quite as much attention right now. [00:02:23]
Laura Dugger: Certainly. So you are in the thick of it. You have kids at home, a great career. And you've mentioned you have five important roles you play in life. Can you just share those and the definitions that you've created?
Leslie Neslage: Absolutely. Several years ago, I started working with a personal coach, Tommy Newberry. He has a group here in Atlanta that he works with as well as clients all over the country. One of the things he really challenged me on was what are the five most important roles you play in life? And these can look different in different seasons. But that really helped me clarify what are the things that I need to say yes to and what are the things that in this season of life, it's just no, I just don't have the hours and I can't.
So mine are number one, spiritual being. A verse that just is near and dear to my heart is Ephesians 4:2, "Follow God's example in everything you do, live a life filled with love for others." [00:03:22] That's something that I really try to keep at the core of who I am is how can I live a life filled with love for others and how can I be a light that is reflecting what God created in the world? Whether I talk about it or whether I just do that through actions. So that's something that really grounds who I am and is the most important thing for me.
After spiritual being it's wife. My marriage is the most important thing to me. God has blessed me tremendously with an unbelievable husband, Steven. I say my role is I'm a wife and my little tagline is I'm a wife that Steven adores and is excited to come home to at the end of the day.
Marriage is hard and it's great and it's fun and it's crazy, but that has to be at the center of our family. So as long as I have my faith, my marriage and my kids, the rest of the world can kind of fall away. But those are the three things that I just can't compromise. [00:04:23] So those are faith, then wife.
And then third is mom. So I'm a faithful parent that my kids want to hug. And faithful, I was really intentional with this. My friend Penny is a children's pastor and she really challenged me when I was getting ready to have my daughter. I kept saying, "Gosh, I just hope I'm a good mom. All I want to do is be a good mom."
And she really challenged me. She said, "Leslie, nowhere in the Bible doesn't say be a good mom. God doesn't call you to be a good mom. God calls you to be a faithful parent. That really struck me because for each individual mom or dad or parent, what's important to you could look very different than what's important to someone else.
So examples of that are some people it's really important to nurse. Some people can't. It's just their body doesn't work. Some people they want their kids to eat all organic. I don't cook. So my kids have never had anything organic. [00:05:27] Unless, you know, we happen to be in an organic restaurant, which is few and far between. Some people they are big fan of letting their kids cry it out. Some people never let their kids cry it out. And all of those options are fine.
What Penny really challenged me on was a faithful parent is someone who teaches their child about the Lord, they teach their children to love and respect, and care about others. So literally what I did was I just read verse after verse after verse and made a list of what are the things that faithful parents do. I printed this list and I have it hanging up in my closet.
So at the end of the day, when it's been a long day and my daughter has slammed the door in my face or hit me and said, "No mommy. Move mommy," and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what am I doing?" Well, she's two, that's going to happen. But I can always try to go back to that true north and say, "Am I showing her honor, dignity, and respect? Am I loving my kids? Am I praying for my kids? Am I helping them learn about the Lord? Am I nurturing them? Am I giving them a safe place to come home to? [00:06:34]
If the answer to that is yes, that's the most important thing. So I really want to be a faithful parent that my kids want to hug. And hug is really just more, they feel safe and they feel comfortable. I want my kids to know that they can always ask me anything, that we can talk about anything, and that home is a comfortable place to be.
When they go off to college, I want them to think about what their home experience was like, and I want it to always be safe and a place where they felt they could come home and get a hug. I'm not saying it's always going to be glamorous and perfect, heck no, but I want them to feel that it's safe.
So spiritual, being mom, wife, Chick-fil-A leader. So I've had the privilege of working at Chick-fil-A for 12 years now, which is crazy. I started as an intern and kind of have worked my way up throughout the Chick-fil-A support center, which has been such a blessing in my life. [00:07:28]
But my goal at Chick-fil-A is I want to be a leader who inspires and brings out the best in others. So I've gotten to do that in a variety of different ways: encouraging operators and their team members in the local restaurants, helping teach training classes, and most recently in the menu development department, helping launch and test new items for our restaurants. So it's been a blessing.
Then last but not least is athlete who thrives off of exercise, clean eating and journaling. And I will be honest, right now in this season, this is not totally happening because if any of these... This is the one right now that I'm like, "I can't not have my faith in God. I can't fall short on my husband or my kids and work is critical."
So, athlete, this is something that's super important to me and is more aspirational. Maybe when I get out of the three-month newborn fog I will find time to exercise a little bit more. [00:08:27]
But one way that I really connect and reflect, especially with the Lord is journaling and having quiet time, having prayer time, and journaling. So that's something that, for me, even if it's just five minutes to look at notes that I've written on my iPad or look at posted notes in my closet, that's what I do. So those are my five rules.
Laura Dugger: Those are so good. What's encouraging about that is you've got it clearly laid out, here are five priorities, and yet there's a flexibility built in that we can all relate to that sometimes you weigh out which are most important if one has to go for a season. So I feel like you've just offered us grace with that.
But you mentioned you work with Chick-fil-A at the support center. So what is your favorite part about working for Chick-fil-A?
Leslie Neslage: All of it. I know that sounds cheesy, but it really is. I have been so unbelievably blessed. So I grew up in Minnesota in South Dakota. I never had Chick-fil-A until I went to Auburn. [00:09:26] I knew nothing about this company. I knew nothing about Truett Cathy or the Cathy family or our waffle fries or any of it.
At the end of my college career, my professor, I needed an internship and he was like, "Hey..." My background was television and media relations. And then I realized I did not want to go into that. And he said, "Hey, you should look at Chick-fil-A. They really align with your values." And here you are. And I'm like, "The restaurant company?" And he was like, "Yeah, they're actually awesome." I was like, "Okay."
So I started, I applied, I was an intern. And over the course of the last 12 years, I can honestly tell you every aspect of my life is better because of Chick-fil-A and because of the people I get to interact with on a daily basis.
I have incredible parents and great family, but the people that I'm surrounded with here have just really challenged my thoughts and challenged me and given me perspective on "here's some really amazing things to think about in marriage. Here's some really great things to think about in terms of raising kids. Here's some things to think about in terms of community service." [00:10:33]
I just had a coffee with Rodney Bullard who's our vice president of community affairs. He worked for the White House and has this unbelievable background. He went to the Air Force Academy and now he's leading the Chick-fil-A foundation and helping develop scholarship programs for our Chick-fil-A restaurant operators. And it's just like, "Wow. I sit down the hall from you and I can have coffee with you and you're doing these unbelievable things."
Our office and our operators have that incredible life. So truly, at the end of the day, if I had to boil it down to one word, it's the people and it's the stories and not just of the support staff of the individual owner-operators who have really touched and changed my life. It's unbelievable. It is a blessing. It is truly a blessing to have the opportunity to sell waffle fries and chicken and milkshakes.
And at first blush, you think, "What? There's no way." [00:11:29] But everything about my life is better because I have the opportunity to connect with the people I do here.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And your character even comes out. We were just walking through the support center a few minutes ago. There was actually a piece of trash on the ground and I noticed that you were walking in front of me and you didn't just pass by it. You bent down, picked it up and threw it away. And even those small examples show what you've been shaped by with Chick-fil-A.
Leslie Neslage: And you know what? If I had taken a different career path I know that I would not be the person I am today. My faith would not be where it is today. The things that I look for in life and in the world would not be what they are today.
I mean, it was funny on my wedding day, believe it or not, my mom and I were having a conversation and she said, "You've turned out to be this amazing person." She's like, "There were years I never thought it was possible." And that's probably because I was a sassy five-year-old, I don't know or when I was 16 I was more concerned with cheerleading than others. [00:12:32]
But I think so much of how I've turned out and the person I've become and the person I'm continuing to become is because of Chick-fil-A. I know it is. 100% it is.
Laura Dugger: Well, when you say that, it makes me think, what are some specific stories that come to your mind of how someone at Chick-fil-A has influenced or shaped your life?
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh, I have about a thousand. So one of my mentors here is David Salyers. He was the second person hired in the marketing department. I had a coffee with him when I was an intern my second week here, and literally I told him my whole life story. I got in the car and I called my boyfriend, who is now my husband, Steven, and I said, "I think I just made the biggest mistake of my life," or "I'm going to have a lifelong friend." And he's turned out to be a lifelong friend.
But he has given me so many little nuggets of wisdom. So a couple that I'll share with you are marriage. [00:13:30] I was talking to David about marriage and just, you know, investing in your marriage and when to get married. Steve and I dated for five years and David and I sat down and I was like, "I just don't know when I'm ready and I don't want to make a rush decision because my parents got divorced and my husband's parents are divorced and basically everyone in our family except for one of my aunts and uncles and my grandparents are divorced."
And David said, "Les, there's no sprint." At the time I was 23 or 24. And he said, "If you and Steven were together until you're 80, it doesn't really matter if you're together for two years, five years, seven years, 10 years. If then you're married until you're 80, enjoy whatever season you're in. Because once you cross through that hurdle, you can't go back. So enjoy the dating phase because then you can't go back. When you're engaged, enjoy the engagement phase and then enjoy the married phase."
And that has been life-changing for me because it sort of took this time pressure off. So we dated for five years, we were engaged for a year and a half and we waited six years to have kids. [00:14:33] And every time I would talk with him, he would just say, "Leslie, enjoy it, just slow down and enjoy it." And it was wonderful.
Another thing that David's taught me on a totally opposite front than marriage has so much to do with parenting. He always talks with me about investing in your kids and raising your kids. But one thing that has given me such a piece of heart is he always says, "Leslie, parents take far too much credit and far too much blame for how their children turn out." And it is so true.
He just said your job is to create experiences for your kids to grow and learn and make mistakes and learn how to get back up and persevere. But he kept saying you can't take too much credit for how they turn out. You can't take too much blame. You just have to continuously teach and have teachable moments, spend time with them, have conversations with them. [00:15:31] But at the end of the day, they're going to learn to make choices."
And one of the best things you can do is give your kid an opportunity to have those experiences. And okay, if you want to do this and jump off the couch, you're going to fall. Obviously, don't let them run in the street or anything. That's been a huge help for me.
So those are just two of the things. I mean, I could go on and on. We could do a whole podcast on life lessons learned from Chick-fil-A.
Laura Dugger: Oh, maybe we should do that at some point as well. But many women can relate to having a family and a career that they love. So what encouragement do you have for those ladies who are listening and they're in your same position?
Leslie Neslage: In some ways, you got to fake it till you make it. I don't know. I mean, I was up at four this morning with one kid, six with the other, and up at seven. But I think the best piece of advice was, again, for one of my friends here at Chick-fil-A, her name is Lindsey Baron. And she told me right before I had Helen, she said, "Leslie, you can have balance. It just doesn't all happen on the same day." [00:16:37]
That has been such a weight off my shoulders because I work full time and I travel and my husband works full time and he travels and we have two little kids at home and we have zero family in Atlanta. So God has tremendously blessed us with wonderful friends. My friends, Penny and Donna and a lot of great friends here at Chick-fil-A that I'm like, "Hey, can you pick Helen up today from daycare? I got to take George to the doctor" or vice versa. But I think the thing with balance is you can do it all. You just can't do it all on the same day. And giving yourself grace to realize that.
Last week, for example, I was traveling in Washington, D.C. and I left at four in the morning before my kids got up and I didn't get home until 7:30 at night on Friday night. I left on Thursday morning, got home at 7:30 at night after they both went to bed. And nursing on the road and Lord, that's a whole nother podcast. But I was doing it for work. [00:17:33]
And I had the chance to meet with eight Chick-fil-A operators and spend time with their team members. And I absolutely loved it. And it was awesome. And my husband held down the fort at home and he was on deck and he was great with that. But that day my kids, I didn't get to spend as much time with them.
This week there's... Lord, we've already been to the doctor once this week and it's only Tuesday. I had to come in late. I'm leaving early to get my kids because my son has his four-month checkup. You just kind of have to make it balanced.
Some days your kids are going to be the last one picked up at daycare and some days you're just not going to get to the email or you're just not going to get to the phone call that you need to respond to. And you just have to give yourself grace.
Something that I will say has been super helpful is for me, my accountability partner is my husband, but we'll go on walks or in bed at night when we're talking, I'll just say, "Are we doing okay? Are we totally out of balance?" And there have been seasons in life, actually, a lot before kids where he was like, "Yeah, no more email at night." [00:18:36] Like, "You can't keep doing this." And then there are seasons where he's like, "No, we're totally great."
So just having those candid conversations of this week was a little crazy, but as long as it evens out... I like to think of it in terms of a month, as long as it evens out over the course of a month. A tactical thing, if it's helpful for you or for any moms or parents out there is I'll look at my calendar and I'll kind of make a check like, Okay, this was a big work day. So I put a W on it. If this was a big mom day or family day, I'll put an M on it. And then I'll look at the calendar and I'll say, Okay, this kind of evens out. And if it doesn't, then you really got to reevaluate.
But that's something super tactical for me so that in the thick of it when I'm like, Okay, I have 97 emails in my inbox and I'm sitting in the doctor's office right now because we have our 11th ear infection. It's like, Okay, but I'm the only one who can be Helen's mom right now. Those emails can wait. [00:19:35] Or when Helen's healthy and my husband's on deck, then I can go and travel. And it works. You just make it work. You make it work one day at a time.
Laura Dugger: It's so good. I love that idea. You've given us a few takeaways. The question to ask, first of all, who is our accountability partner. Checking in with them: Are we doing okay? Looking at our calendar, balancing out over a month. These are so good. Do you have any other practical tips for us?
Leslie Neslage: Yes. Okay. So this was also given to me by another Chick-fil-A friend and female coworker, Elizabeth Dixon. When I was pregnant with Helen, we sat down and I'm like, "Okay, how do you do this?" And she was like, "Leslie, outsource everything and anything you can afford that you're not emotionally tied to." That for me was brilliant.
And she really focused on "that you are not emotionally tied to". So she said for her, she's like, "I love cooking meals and I love cooking with my kids and we have an experience and we cook organic and she... I think she made her own baby food. [00:20:39] And I'm like, "Wow. That is so not my thing." I'm like, "I am not that. That is not for me." But that's her thing.
So one thing that my husband and I did after we had Helen before we came back to work is I said, Okay, we've got to outsource some stuff. So we've carved and worked the money out of the budget. So we have someone who comes twice a week to help us do laundry and grocery shopping and cleaning and cooking so that we can come home and at the end of the day we can literally kick our shoes off and sit on the floor and read stories and play with our kids.
I don't have to worry about the laundry or running to the grocery store because at the end of the day in 18 years I will still have laundry, I will still have to go to the grocery store, but I will not have two little babies who want to sit in my lap and read Llama Llama Red Pajama. So, that's what we do now.
And it's funny, when I tell you that I do not cook, I really don't. [00:21:36] And my daughter, we got her a kitchen. I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing, but it's reflective of our life. She's like, "Here, mommy, I'll make you hot dogs." And she opened the refrigerator on her kitchen, put the fake hot dog in the microwave, hit the beep, and then she took it out and put it on a plate.
I'm like, Yeah, that's all you see because all I do is microwave your food. I'm so sorry. But at the end of the day, that's where I come back to. I'm a faithful parent. She's healthy. She knows she's loved. If she's living on microwave hot dogs right now and cheese and pears, then that's what she's eating and it's fine.
Laura Dugger: That's great. I love it.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Today's episode is made possible by our Central Illinois sponsor, Leman Property Management. They offer over 1,600 apartment homes throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. Whether you're looking for the newest property in the hottest area of town or an economical location where you can get the most value for your dollar, they have you covered. [00:22:38]
From efficiency apartments to 4-bedroom units and single-family homes, Leman Property Management has been providing a place for people to call home for nearly 40 years. Whenever you start a search for a rental, start that search with Leman Property Management. With a professional and friendly staff to serve you from the first time you walk in their doors, you won't be disappointed.
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com. And there you can search for their different communities. You can also like them on Facebook or call their leasing office at (309) 346-4159. So moving back to the work side, how did you end up working a corporate job with Chick-fil-A?
Leslie Neslage: So I worked as an intern and then part-time temporary for about a year and a half for an hourly wage and would work with operators and team members helping write their press releases for their community events. [00:23:35] And I absolutely loved it.
My family in Minnesota kept saying, "What are you doing? Where are you working? We have never heard of this chicken restaurant. Are you sure?" My dad especially was like, "I don't know about this." It's like, "Trust me, this is a really good place." And it's not like I could tell him, go down the road and go to Chick-fil-A because in 2006 there weren't any Chick-fil-A's in Minnesota. We were barely in the Midwest.
But I'm so glad that I did because it's shaped who I am and it shaped my life. And I never thought a television degree from Auburn that I would now be helping launch new menu items to our Chick-fil-A restaurants. But Rick, my professor who helped me find Chick-fil-A, would always tell me, "Leslie, what you do first, you don't have to do forever. It could lead to something else. So if you like it and you like the people and you like the work, stay. Don't feel like you have to change. You can make an unbelievable career at Chick-fil-A. It just might not be what you thought it looked like." [00:24:36] So that has been huge.
One of my friends here, Robert McLaughlin, who is a great mentor to me, he led the sponsorships and event marketing department for a long time. He would always say, "Leslie, if you look back at the course of your life, you can see these pinpoints and these pivotal moments, kind of like the dots on your life." And he said, "When you look back at some point, they'll all connect."
So I think for me, just having faith and taking a jump, "Well, I'm going to start at Chick-fil-A as an intern. I don't know anything about the company, but I'm going to give it a shot and we'll see what happens" has been the biggest blessing of my life. I never would have done that had Rick not just said, "What you do first, you don't have to do forever. Give it a try. You never know where it could lead."
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And maybe somebody is listening right now and they're a college student, but they don't know what they want to do after graduation. Or maybe somebody else has been in their field for years, but they're starting to feel that nudge to look elsewhere. [00:25:37] What other careers are available to them through Chick-fil-A?
Leslie Neslage: What I would say to anyone listening is go and download the Chick-fil-A app on your iPhone or on your Android. Find the closest Chick-fil-A to you and just go ask to talk with the owner operator and say, "Can I have breakfast with you?" or "Can I have coffee with you? Tell me about Chick-fil-A. Tell me about what you do." Because the career opportunities within the restaurant and within the support center side are endless.
We are in the people business. We serve chicken, but it's everything from, you know, I'm in the marketing department but really I'm in many development. We have careers in finance. We have writing. We have content we have to write for our websites and for our communication. We have social media. You can do social media at the restaurant level.
Each individual operator a lot of times will hire someone to do marketing for that specific restaurant. So if you're a college student interested in marketing, go talk to your local operator. [00:26:38] It's called marketing director is the program or restaurant marketing director, and you would have opportunities to really have hands-on real-world experience with coordinating and setting up events, leveraging and figuring out how to do social media.
Maybe you're interested in graphic designs. Our local restaurant owners always need graphic design work done. Maybe you're interested in youth and leadership development. That is probably one of the biggest and most important roles a Chick-fil-A restaurant owner-operator plays is developing the people that get to work in their restaurant.
I don't think there's a better career for someone just starting out or who's maybe midway through their career and says, "I gotta make a change." I think the best thing you could do, honestly, is look on your phone, search Chick-fil-A, find a local restaurant operator, call them up. I cannot think of one operator in the chain who would not be willing to talk with you about the career opportunities within the Chick-fil-A restaurant or at the support center. [00:27:41]
Laura Dugger: That's great advice and something we could each do today. You also work with healthy menu items. Some of our listeners maybe have never tried Chick-fil-A because they fear it is really unhealthy. Could you just shed some light on that myth?
Leslie Neslage: Yes. Oh my gosh. This is probably one of my favorite myths to debunk because we have so many healthy items. And when you think about healthy, everyone has a different term for healthy. No additives or ingredients.
Our chicken is all-natural, whole breast chicken meat that we hand-bred fresh in the restaurant every single day. You know, we have grilled nuggets for our kids' menu. We have fruit cup. We have three amazing entree salads. We have a cool wrap. We have a superfood side that's broccolini and kale. I think we have the healthiest kids' meal in America. That's one of the things that I know we've talked about. [00:28:39]
There are so many options. So it really determines on what your definition of healthy is. But I can tell you it's fresh ingredients. A lot of our operators get six produce delivery trucks a week. So the same produce, the same tomatoes, the same kale, the same fruit that you would pick up in your local grocery store, our Chick-fil-A operators are getting. The delivery trucks literally go to Publix, they go to Kroger, they go right to Chick-fil-A.
I can tell you that I feel so good about feeding my kids Chick-fil-A, both the grilled nuggets and our pressure-cooked classic nuggets. What I'll do is I'll go into a Chick-fil-A restaurant and a lot of Chick-fil-A restaurants will sell the 30-count nuggets. So I'll buy the 30-count nuggets and then I'll take them home.
I told you I really don't cook. So I'll take them home and I'll put them in individual baggies and I'll put them in the freezer and then I'll pull them out. And that's because I know exactly what I'm giving my daughter and I know all about that chicken and it's whole breast chicken meat that's simply cut up into little nuggets. [00:29:40] There aren't any preformed shapes or anything like that.
A lot of nights too my kids love the yogurt so we'll get a couple Greek yogurts and just put them in the fridge and make them for their lunches the next couple days. There's so many different options. Additionally, when you walk into a Chick-fil-A restaurant, and for me, I've usually got two kids, one on each hip, a stroller, and a diaper bag, the thing that I love the most is they'll help you to your table. So I'll go and order and they'll help me to my table.
Or one of my favorite things is a program that a lot of Chick-fil-A restaurants offer called Parents Valet, where you can order through your app on your phone and just put the instructions in, pull up into the parking spot, and they'll actually bring the food out to you. So that for me... I mean, Lord, that is the biggest blessing because if the drive-thru line is wrapped around, even though our Chick-fil-A drive-thrus are fast, I sometimes don't go through because where our drive-thru is the play place is right there and my daughter absolutely has a meltdown. [00:30:43] Play, play, play, play, play.
So if I can go on the other side and do the parents' valet, they'll deliver the food to the car, then we can go home and plate it up and serve it. But if I go through the drive-through and we don't go in the restaurant, it is a meltdown for two and a half hours. I kid you not.
Laura Dugger: I love it. And there's even one additional thing that you just keep touching on. If somebody doesn't have the Chick-fil-A app, just tell us a little bit more about that because it's amazing.
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh. Yes. So all you have to do literally is go into your App Store and download the Chick-fil-A app and you can pull up any menu item, the nutrition, the calories. You can order items on the Chick-fil-A app.
So, one of the things that I've historically done is I'll get all the kids in the car, we'll be sitting in the driveway, I'll plug in my order, or I'll plug it in even before we leave the house. And then right when I pull up and park at Chick-fil-A, I'll click "I'm here". [00:31:40] And then that cues the team to start to prepare the order.
And I can get the diaper bags and the strollers and two kids out of the car. I'll walk in and I'll just say, "Hey, I'm Leslie. We're actually going to dine in right over here." And the Chick-fil-A team members will bring it. Helen's already off playing in the play place. But it just makes life so much easier.
When you're in the thick of it... I mean, I feel like we're in the fog right now. No sleep, newborns, diapers, bottles, all of it. Anything that can make your life easier, you want. So for us, the Chick-fil-A app makes our life easier and we are there at least two nights a week. At least two nights a week we go in. We probably go more through the drive-thru or do the parent's valet.
Laura Dugger: Well, and with that app, so not only do you skip the line, but from a budget standpoint, you eat more chicken. They send you more treats. They keep sending you free items.
Leslie Neslage: Yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny. I think I have multiple treats for breakfast items and dinner items on my phone right now.
Laura Dugger: Which is another benefit. [00:32:47] And you mentioned, I wasn't planning on sharing this, but you mentioned looking up the calorie content. And after our first daughter was born, my husband and I wanted to get more fit together. He was like, "Okay, every plan out there for healthy eating includes grilled chicken. He owns the local Chick-fil-A so we committed to that and we use my fitness pal for a calorie counter you just type in the Chick-fil-A Entree it also has the nutritional value and he lost 40 pounds in a short amount of time just through that more of a Chick-fil-A diet on a regular basis. He didn't have 40 pounds to lose, he already looked amazing, but that was really inspiring to me and also helped me lose the baby weight.
Leslie Neslage: That's exactly what I did. I signed up for Weight Watchers. This is not a plug for Weight Watchers. But in the new system that they're on, protein-grilled chicken is zero points. And it's unbelievable. And fruit is zero points. [00:33:48] So I can go in and get a diet lemonade, 8 or 12 grilled nuggets, and a large fruit cup, and that's zero points. It's amazing. That's how I lost my baby weight, living on Chick-fil-A.
Laura Dugger: Those grilled nuggets are amazing, too. If you're in a hurry, you can just pop those in.
Leslie Neslage: They're great. And they're awesome reheated. If you have to take them home, and like us, literally, it's a struggle to get our daughter to eat at Chick-fil-A because all she wants to do is play in the playground. When we bring her home, it's like, "All right, throw the nuggets back in the microwave, heat them up, keep them in the fridge, serve them the next day, they're totally fine."
Laura Dugger: Okay, so we definitely did not talk about any of this ahead of time, but you're telling our life story. That's what we do in the yogurt parfaits.
Leslie Neslage: Yogurt parfaits for breakfast, multiple days a week. Chicken biscuits. We do the 30-count nuggets and bag them up in individual bags. I keep trying the superfood salad. I love it. My daughter doesn't love it yet. But I have actually blended it in a smoothie before and that's been okay. Just take the cherries out. [00:34:49]
Laura Dugger: I'm totally trying that. Love it. So you've mentioned so many ways that Chick-fil-A has had a positive impact on your life. How can Chick-fil-A also have a positive impact on the life of anyone listening today?
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh, there's so many opportunities. I think the biggest thing that you could do is talk with your local owner-operator and see what they can do. But I mean, our team members, there are unbelievable opportunities for them with scholarships, with health and wellness programs, with marriage and parenting. We offer windshake and team members get to go to that. And if that's something that operators are willing to support. You know, there's so many different angles.
The operator that owns the restaurant that's closest to me is Jason Bilotti. And a couple of the unbelievable things that he does is he actually really is dedicated to investing in building schools in Niger, Africa, which is the poorest country in Africa. [00:35:49]
So our local Chick-fil-A, they do a family fun run every year, and that's sort of his mission. But you can figure out different ways to get involved. There's so many different avenues within Chick-fil-A that can support every aspect of your life.
Laura Dugger: So true. Like you said, if you talk to any local owner-operator, I know my husband, a few passions that he has, if you're listening and you're in the Midwest or really they're going all over the world now, Midwest food bank feeding the hungriest people on earth and St. Jude is big in our area. And so the impact of you even coming and supporting a Chick-fil-A, knowing where your money is also going to meet needs of others.
There are endless stories when you sit down and talk to these local owner-operators. Are there any others that come to mind? Any stories that you could share?
Leslie Neslage: Yes, absolutely. So one of my friends here that owns Chick-fil-A is Mark Reed. [00:36:45] And something that the Atlanta operators have become really passionate about is Children's Healthcare of Atlanta. That's our local children's hospital. And I say local in Atlanta, but it reaches, you know, people from Tennessee, from Alabama, from South Florida, from Savannah, all come to Atlanta to get health care for their children.
And that's one of the hardest things as a parent is seeing when you have a sick kid. And CHOA is unbelievable. We've only been there for fevers and stitches, but they serve a wide variety of needs. And the local Chick-fil-A owners really realized this is something that our community is passionate about. So they did a fundraiser last year with cookies and cookie sales and were able to give almost $200,000 to Children's Healthcare of Atlanta. They're doing it again this year in the fall.
It's just unbelievable to see how people's lives are impacted and the beneficiaries of that. It's just unbelievable. [00:37:44] I know years ago, I think in 2013 or 2014, when the tornadoes went through the Midwest, Chick-fil-A restaurant owner-operators that were not impacted literally opened to their restaurants, started making sandwiches, brought in power strips, plugged in their phones and let people come and charge their phones, let people come, and have water, let people come and have food.
There are just so many ways that you can give back. I know of operators who are leading mission trips in Ukraine and in Africa and in South America. And it's just unbelievable how you can give back to not just your local community, but to the world at large.
Laura Dugger: I love that and that anyone listening can be a part of that.
Leslie Neslage: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: So good. Well, as we're wrapping up today, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And so we would love to hear your practical tips. [00:38:45] So as our final question today, Leslie, what is your savvy sauce?
Leslie Neslage: Oh my gosh, there's so many. I think I shared with you already the calendar. That's one way that I just really look at. Am I in balance? Am I not in balance? So I literally put a W on the calendar for work, an M on the calendar for marriage, and an F on the calendar for family. And I make sure that it's balanced out over the course of a month.
Outsourcing and getting people to help you. I really like iBooks for if you just need something really quick. So I do the You Bible app. And if you're in the middle of the doctor's office, or you've got a break between meetings, I like to look up the app and read the verse of the day. That's a good tip. [00:39:34]
And then something for me, accountability is huge. So I have to have accountability. So I have an app called Momentum and it's a habit tracker app. You can set it up to track anything you want. So if you're trying to drink more water, if you're trying to exercise more. I have it set up to track, did I read my verse of the day? And did I pray for my kids today? And like three other things. And then I just literally at the end of the day, when I'm laying in bed, go in and I track and I'm like, "Did I do this? Did I do this?"
That part of it is sort of robotic, but it forces me to really stop and think, Okay, yes, I am praying specifically for Stephen, for Helen and for George. Or did I exercise today? Uh, no. Oh, well, I'll try again tomorrow. But that's a good way that just really helps me hold myself accountable. And it's super easy. I think it was free. If it wasn't, it was maybe like two bucks.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So good. And Leslie, this has just been so fun to chat with you today. [00:40:34] You are a delight to spend time with. And I'm grateful that you took the time to share your love of Chick-fil-A with us today. So thank you for hanging out with us at The Savvy Sauce.
Leslie Neslage: Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: Hi friends, we wanted to share our love of Chick-fil-A with you, so head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and find our "Giveaways tab", where you're going to find more information to enter to win a giveaway for a Chick-fil-A gift card. This is for a limited time only, so head over today!
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:41:39] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:42:41] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:43:43]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Tuesday Oct 02, 2018
Tuesday Oct 02, 2018
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:20] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode.
Today we have the privilege of speaking with Dee Ann Turner. We recorded this episode a while back while she was serving as Vice President of Corporate Talent at Chick-fil-A. She's recently retired after an amazing career. I hope that you enjoy the leadership principles and stories she shares. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dee Ann.
Dee Ann Turner: Thank you so much. It's great to be with you today.
Laura Dugger: Well, we're so glad to have you. For anyone listening today who doesn't know you yet, can you just give us a quick picture of your life? [00:01:26]
Dee Ann Turner: Well, most of the time it's on an airplane somewhere these days, but I have a wonderful husband, three grown sons. I'm about to be an empty nester. My last one's headed off to college in the fall.
Then on the professional side, I've spent over 32 years now with Chick-fil-A in various roles. Spent 30 years of that leading our people function. And for the last two years, I've built and led our sustainability function.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's an incredible resume. A lot of people listening today might be working moms as well So do you have any tips or encouragement to share with them?
Dee Ann Turner: Actually, you know you learn as you go along. One of the things that I like to tell working moms is at the end of the day, tell yourself, "I did the best I could." We tend to beat up on ourselves and think about all the things. "Well, I didn't get to that or I didn't get to this." But the most important thing is at the end of the day know that you did absolutely the best you can do and that was enough. [00:02:31]
Then the second thing is to figure out what's important and let the rest go. Sometimes we try to be Wonder Woman and perfect in so many different ways. It is impossible to do it all. And so the only way to be successful at both is to decide what is important in both arenas and not let those balls drop.
The other stuff, be willing to say, that's just not important today. And of course, with our families, we have that incredible opportunity to raise those children. And I actually feel like that's the biggest responsibility I've been given regardless of other responsibilities in my life, and so they always came first.
When it came to time, sometimes I had to explain, "Hey, mom has to go this week, I have to travel to this place, but next week I'm going to be able to be off and I'm going to catch both of your baseball games."
So we had real open conversation to the point that at times I actually would ask them, "What's most important to you this week? [00:03:30] What can I not miss for you?" And that helped a lot to open up that conversation. Because you learn from your children what's important and you also, especially as they become teenagers, you learn what's not important and what was important for me. I realize they're like, "No, mom, you don't need to do that one. But what I'd really like you to do is this."
So just find out what your priorities are and realize you can't do it all. And forgive yourself with the things you miss and recognize that you did the best you could.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's so good. Thank you for sharing that. And stories in general are so powerful. So we would love to hear the story behind your book, which is titled, It's My Pleasure: The Impact of Extraordinary Talent and a Compelling Culture. Can you just tell us about your journey to publish this great resource?
Dee Ann Turner: Sure. In 2013, our founder at Chick-fil-A, Truett Cathy, he became ill and for the most part left the business. That was the last year of his life. When he passed away in September 2014, I had begun writing just a series of blog posts on my own personal blog that that was my way of reflecting on the grief of losing him. [00:04:43]
At the same time, my dad passed away. So these two great business mentors in my life died. And ever since I was a little girl, my way of working that out was to write about it. So before long, I realized that I put together several blog posts and then I was talking about all the things that I had learned from Truett. And I thought, "You know, this might be valuable to the other people in Chick-fil-A."
My time with Truett was specifically centered around growing and strengthening our culture and also in the area of talent selection and development. Truett believed that people decisions were the most important decisions that an organization could make. And so he constantly reinforced that. Even in the last visit I had with him, having worked for him for nearly 30 years at that point, he was still having that conversation with me.
So what I recognized as he passed away is that it was almost like I had this treasure that he had given and I needed to share it with the rest of the organization. [00:05:47] And I specifically needed to help our leadership and our staff and Chick-fil-A franchisees remember that people decisions are the most important decisions we make and how we had made those over time to be the successful organization that we became under Truett's leadership.
And then the realization to me was that this organization was growing so fast and we were adding restaurants and adding people and so many people, hundreds of thousands of people associated with Chick-fil-A that would never know Truett and what he taught us. So I felt like I had a responsibility to those who came after him for them to know what was important to Truett as well.
So those two things kind of came together. I started writing and quite honestly, it just poured out of me. I went on a couple of vacations over Christmas and over spring break, and before I knew it, I'd put together this book. So it really almost was by accident that it all came together, but I realized what I had, and I felt like I should share it. [00:06:51]
So the funny thing about the whole thing was it was written to help our internal audience, and I had no idea it would become so popular among an external audience as well.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is fascinating. I had no idea the backstory behind all of that. It is very apparent that it just poured out of you because the book is incredible. And you're right, it's applicable to people inside or outside the organization. I just wanted to say I'm sorry, that must have been a really tough year losing your dad and Truett at the same time.
Dee Ann Turner: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It was, but I'm just so grateful for all that I learned from both of them over their lifetime.
Laura Dugger: Sure. Well, and let's dive into your book a little bit more. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about a few topics and illustrating how they may be practical tools for our listeners. So one thing that you talk about, you give a lot of credit to mentors that you've had at Chick-fil-A. [00:07:49] What are some of those practical lessons that they taught you?
Dee Ann Turner: I think maybe one of the most important lessons that I learned from one of my mentors that I talk about in the book, Jimmy Collins. Jimmy Chick-fil-A's first non-family president and he retired in 2001. But he really, during the course of my career, really took me under his wing, so to speak, and taught me so much about life and about leadership.
One of the very early lessons he taught me was this. He said, "It's kindness to refuse immediately what you eventually intend to deny." I'll say it again. It's kindness to refuse immediately what you eventually intend to deny.
So where that played out specifically in my role at the time and what he was teaching me was this whole idea that we have a very extensive, and still do, but extensive selection process to be a franchisee or a staff member. [00:08:48]
For instance, today we received 30,000 inquiries to be a franchisee, and about 30,000 to be a corporate staff member at Chick-fil-A, and we only select each year about 100 in each of those categories. So you can see the competitiveness. And we spend a lot of time ensuring that we make great decisions.
But what he was trying to teach me at the time is, obviously, with those kind of numbers, we turn down a lot of people. In fact, I said sometimes my job is really about saying no nicely more than it is about saying yes. And his point there was, you know, if you're going to tell somebody no, tell them quickly, because to drag them along through a long process and tell them no, you know, months into this, which did happen sometimes. But we wanted that to happen as few times as possible.
So that was one of the life lessons he taught me and I can't tell you how many times that spilled over into other parts of my life. I use the quote a lot and even in parenting. It really alleviates a lot of issues, if you just quickly say no rather than, "Well, let me ask your dad and let me think about it a while and let me sleep on it. I don't know yet." [00:09:59]
I've been through all that with teenagers. I realized that if I use that principle to say no quickly, then that was a lot kinder to them, and their expectations weren't raised and then deflated when I eventually said no to whatever it is that they wanted to do.
Jimmy taught me another lesson that still is so relevant in my work in leading the group that I lead now, which is, he said, "It's easier to restrain mustangs than to kick mules. It's easier to restrain mustangs than to kick mules."
What he meant by that is go ahead and select that person who's smarter than you, who has all this talent. You know, they may get ahead of you sometimes and you may be saying, "Hey, hang on, hang on." But isn't that so much better than somebody that doesn't have initiative? He doesn't want to get in there and do things and you're constantly prodding and pushing and trying to move them along." So I thought that was quite a bit of wisdom. [00:10:56]
Then the last thing I'd share with you, and I'm kind of camped out on Jimmy as my mentor, but the third thing I would say about him from a servant leadership standpoint, I tell a story, and it's my pleasure, about Jimmy demonstrating this in so many different ways. But the thing that's just never left me, the image I have of him, even though he retired in 2001, is that, at the time he retired, he was the 65-year-old president of a $1 billion company.
One of the things he did every single day was he stopped his car on the exit ramp where our corporate headquarters is located, and he picked up the trash on that exit ramp. Now, that trash and being on that exit ramp was not the responsibility of Chick-fil-A. It was the responsibility of the local municipality. But because they didn't really do their job well, Jimmy decided to do it for them. [00:11:46]
But he did it because he wanted guests who came to Chick-fil-A to have a remarkable experience from the time they got off the highway till they got to our front door about two and a half miles later. So he would pick up the trash. And you know, he never said anything. He just got out and did it. And he took it to the office and he threw it away.
He demonstrated what servant leadership was. It wasn't long that our grounds maintenance staff realized that maybe it's not a good idea for the 65-year-old president of a billion-dollar company to be out on the side of the road picking up trash that they began doing that. And you know here it is 17 years later and our grounds maintenance staff still keeps that exit ramp clean.
Now, unless they're listening to this podcast or they read it's my pleasure, I'm not sure they still know why they do it and who set the original example. But that's what servant leadership can do. When the leader demonstrates at that level what's expected and how to create a remarkable experience like that, then others learn by watching them, not hearing them, how to do it themselves. [00:12:51]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And the impact of that that years later people are following in these footsteps Something else you discuss is the employee value promise. Can you just elaborate on that?
Dee Ann Turner: You know, it's a way of saying what you get for what you give. Some companies call it a value proposition. I don't really like that terminology because a proposition just sounds like an offer or a business transaction. A promise is a commitment.
So at Chick-fil-A, when I think about the value promise, I think about the commitment that employees have to the organization and the organization has to employees. So this is what it looks like at Chick-fil-A. First of all, we talk about caring more.
We ask our employees to care a lot for Chick-fil-A guests. Regardless of the level they are in the organization, whether they're a franchisee or whether they're a corporate staff member, or team member, the expectation is that guests will be well cared for, even to the point of going above and beyond what's expected. [00:13:59]
In return, we try to demonstrate care for Chick-fil-A employees in a number of ways. That began with Truett and back to his original restaurant when he was helping one of his very first employees fund his college education through a jar that was on the counter in his first restaurant. It was in the 1950s.
And that first helping of that young man to get his college education turned into a scholarship program that just this last year alone Chick-fil-A gave away nearly $9 million to deserving young people to pursue their college education.
So, you know, we expect a lot of hard work. We expect at every level of our organization to serve guests, to implement what we call second-mile service, go above and beyond what's expected. But in return, we care about people deeply and try to create an experience even for them that's remarkable as an employee. [00:14:55]
The second part of that is to serve better. We select everybody who comes to Chick-fil-A... One of the reasons they're selected in whatever role they have is because they have a heart for service. We are in the service business. Sure, we make a great chicken sandwich, but what it's really about is how that sandwich gets served.
The sandwich can be duplicated almost. I haven't found one that's exactly like it, but people can serve a chicken sandwich that's prepared similarly to ours. But the service is really the differentiator and it's the competitive advantage.
But in return, we also serve those that are part of the Chick-fil-A family. In fact, at our organization, the higher position you hold, the more you're expected to serve. Quickly, just one of my favorite stories about that. I had been with the organization just a few months, I was a very young person. I was right out of college. I was an hourly admin in our corporate office. [00:15:53]
My husband and I were on our first annual convention that Chick-fil-A has and I got on the plane and our seats were in first class. And I sat there as Dan Cathy, now our CEO and at the time executive vice president for the company, and his family walked by to sit in the back of the plane. And that's what Truett taught us, was that we're there to serve others. So we expect those associated with Chick-fil-A to serve others, and in turn we serve each other.
Then lastly, the part that really is meaningful or most meaningful to me is the impact lives part that we focus on. And that's part of our corporate purpose to be a positive influence on all we come in contact with. That's really what's kept me at Chick-fil-A all these years. And I think that's why most people are a part of the organization. [00:16:40]
I mean, while it's a great sandwich, again, it's certainly not motivation to spend your entire adult career in one organization. What has been done because of the sales of that Chick-fil-A sandwich, I think is what continues to attract people and retain people in the organization.
Truett used to say, we're not in the chicken business, we're in the people business. And even more than that, especially the way he lived his life, I think we're in the influence business. And we have that opportunity and we have this platform to impact lives.
So while a team member is serving a chicken sandwich somewhere right now while we talk to a customer, the impact of what that sale does and the lives that are touched all over the world because of the work we do, that's to me the most important part of our value promise, our employee value promise, is that I think our lives are impacted by being associated with Chick-fil-A and we have the opportunity to impact the lives of others.
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is compelling to get to be a part of something significant beyond yourself. [00:17:44]
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: You also discuss a person's calling, and I think that everyone listening will identify with this. So how do you know what a calling is and what it is not?
Dee Ann Turner: Well, I don't think calling is just a job. In fact, I like to say that a job is just listed on your resume, but a calling echoes in your epitaph. A calling is that thing that you were made to do. Sometimes we find that early in life. Even my example of writing is a great way. I feel a calling to that. And I felt that calling from the time I was eight years old. That was something I always wanted to do. But, you know, I won't say how old, but much, much later, many decades later, before I really had the opportunity to fulfill that calling.
So sometimes we have to do what... you know, I like to say, sometimes we have to do what God gave us to do before we can do what God made us to do. But a calling is that thing that it gets you out of bed in the morning, and it's not just the alarm clock or a cup of coffee, but it's really that thing that sizzles in your soul, resonates in your heart. You got to go do it no matter what. That's a calling. Anything less than that most oftentimes is just a job, it's just a way to make a living. But a calling is the way to make a life.
I think that when people are able to discover that and discover what they were really made to do, then that's when they have the best opportunity to have that impact that we talked about. [00:20:30]
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. I'm going to read just a short little quote that I loved in your book. And if anybody has your book, it's on page 79. And it simply says, when it talks about a calling, "It creates an inner drive and restlessness when we live outside of it and peace when we are embracing it and living inside of it." That was so good. I just love that you shared that.
Dee Ann Turner: Oh, thank you. Oh, I actually like that quote too. I'm sorry I didn't think of it when I was sharing it. But yeah, yeah. And that's exactly how I felt about my own calling and was able to write about it for that reason.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's great. You mentioned in a different part of your book that you found your calling was to help others find their calling. So if a listener had the opportunity, let's pretend they're sitting down with you today wanting to apply these principles to enrich their own life or their business or their relationship, where would you recommend they start? [00:21:29]
Dee Ann Turner: I think you have to start with an examination of really understanding obviously who you are, what your strengths are, what your capabilities are, what your greatest desire is. And write those down. And evaluate how you're spending the time in your life and does it match up with that? I mean, even your time away from work, how do you get to live out those principles that are important to you and use your strengths on a daily basis? Because if you're not pursuing that, then you're drifting.
So finding your calling, finding out what you're supposed to do, requires tremendous intentionality and focus. And like I said, it can be different at different times in life. For me, in talking about helping other people find their path, my experience of that was actually, I thought I was called into full-time ministry when I came out of college. I thought I had really blown it. I was like, "I was supposed to do this." [00:22:31]
And then it was one day, I mean, literally somebody left my office and we had had a discussion... Actually what happened is I had told them that what they wanted to do with Chick-fil-A, be a franchisee, was not a fit for them. I said, "This is not going to fulfill your life to do this." And I had reasons that I felt that way.
They walked out and... we talked about other things they might want to do while they were in my office. And that was when it hit me. It's like, well, I am doing what I was called to do, which is really helping people find their path, whatever it may be. And sometimes it was helping them find a path within Chick-fil-A and sometimes it was quite honestly helping them find a path somewhere else. But I felt truly that that was what I was called to do.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that makes sense. And you do it so well. And circling back to the mentoring topic, it seems like you just naturally pour out so much and mentor your team along the way. And you had this amazing privilege to have Truett Cathy as one of your mentors. Could you just share any stories that come to mind? [00:23:33] Because a lot of people don't know about him and haven't experienced him in the same way you have.
Dee Ann Turner: Sure. Well, you know, you say that and the funny thing is so many people were impacted personally by Truett's life. I mean, the people at Chick-fil-A, I was just one of many that had that opportunity, as well as when I think about his 13 foster care homes that he established. He didn't just have children in foster care. I mean, he was their grandpa. They called him Grandpa. He got custody rights for all these children and gave them a life that they wouldn't have otherwise had. He completely paid for their educations, just really raised them as his own.
And the customers and the interactions he had with Chick-fil-A team members and their restaurants, his influence, the reach of it was so far. So yes, I mean, he was one of my mentors and I was fortunate enough to be mentored but literally hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of people that had that experience. [00:24:34]
When I think of stories that were most meaningful to me with Truett, I alluded to this a little earlier, but I think about the last time I was with Truett. I mentioned that he got sick in 2013. At the time he was 92 years old, so he knew that time was limited. And so during that last year before he got sick, he would call me over to his office to talk about something.
And before I left, he would look at me and he would say, "Now Dee Ann, remember people decisions are the very most important decisions we make." And the first time he did this that year, I have to say I was a little bit like, Okay, doesn't he know I know that? I've worked for him for nearly 30 years. We've been doing this a long time together. Why would he say that to me?" So I thought, "Well, you know, he's getting a little older, so he's repeating things."
The next month I went back about another issue, and before I left, he did it again. He looked at me very seriously and sternly and said, "Dee Ann, don't forget, people decisions are the most important decisions that we made." [00:25:36]
Well, this went on a couple more times and I was a little slow on the tape on this, but by the fourth time I realized exactly what he was doing. And what he was doing is making sure that I understood this, that I would not forget how important he thought this was to the success of Chick-fil-A.
Again, at the time that he passed away, I mean, we had grown tremendously just in the last few years. We were around a $6 billion business at that time and growing really quickly. He knew how important these things were. Well, I didn't think much about that again until right before Truett passed away. And there were a group of leaders that gathered late one Friday afternoon, or the Friday night before he died the next week. And we were telling Truett stories, and we were recalling our last times with him.
So I shared the story that I just shared with you about what he had done and other people in the room mentioned similar things that Truett had told them. [00:26:35] And we realized how intentional he'd been right up to the end, 92 years old. And even though we had worked with him for decades, he made sure we knew what was important to him about the business. And what a lesson that was.
You know, sometimes I know I do this even as a leader. It's like, well, I've already told them that. Or I told them that twice. Why would I need to tell them that again? Here he demonstrated with people he trusted that he'd worked with for decades, he demonstrated that he still had principles that were significantly important and he wanted to make sure we remember.
So being the mentor that taught me how to mentor is probably the most important lesson he taught me. And that's that: say it, say it again, tell them what you said, and then most certainly demonstrate by your actions what you said.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing all of those stories. I feel like that resonates with each of us and I feel like it can apply either to our business or, like you mentioned, our parenting. [00:27:39] If a listener is curious and looking up your book, where can they find your resource?
Dee Ann Turner: Well, I have a little bit of sad news about that right now. Currently, the hard copy is out of print. My publisher went out of business a while back and we had run out of copies, but it is in the process of being republished. So I'm hoping later this year, it'll be back on sale on Amazon.
I have been told that there are some other places online that you can locate it. It is on Kindle in audio. Again, hopefully it'll create pent-up demand, and when it's re-released later this year people will be able to get the hard copy of it.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. You're also on RightNow Media.
Dee Ann Turner: Yes.
Laura Dugger: If anyone has access to that.
Dee Ann Turner: Yes, RightNow Media has the whole video series about the book, so that's a great way. And then follow me on my website, at Deeannturner.com. And then also on Facebook is the author page, Dee Ann Turner, on Instagram @Deeannturner, and on Twitter @Deeanneturner. [00:28:46] So you can get all the updates on the latest of what I'm writing about and learning on my leadership journey that I'd love to share with all of your listeners as well.
Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes. So if anybody's driving right now, they can't write all those handles down, we will have it easy for them to come find.
We're called The Savvy Sauce here for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear some insight from your life to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Dee Ann Turner: My savvy sauce is to focus on one day at a time. It's so easy for us to get 5, 10, 20 years out, and I used to do that, especially as a young person. I had a 20-year plan, I had a life plan. And then I got to the point that I realized that to be the best leader I could be, and I'm not talking about excusing yourself from good planning practices, but to be the best leader, to be the best wife, to be the best mom, I need to be in the here and now.
So I start every day before everybody else rises in my house. I focus on what my day looks like. I spend my quiet time. I center myself to be ready to meet the rest of the world and to be present in the moment of today. And that's my savvy sauce. [00:30:11]
Laura Dugger: I love it, and a perfect place to end with such wisdom. Thank you for sharing your leadership principles and thank you for living those out every day as you serve others, Dee Ann. It's been a pleasure speaking with you today.
Dee Ann Turner: It's been completely my pleasure and I appreciate you having me today, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Hi Friends. We wanted to share our love of Chick-fil-A with you. So head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and find our giveaway tab, where you are gonna find more information to enter to win a giveaway for a Chick-fil-A gift card. This is for a limited time only, so head over today.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:31:19] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:32:21] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:33:24]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 01, 2018
Monday Oct 01, 2018
Wednesday Sep 26, 2018
Wednesday Sep 26, 2018
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:24] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure to put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship.
Hey, everybody. I'm so thrilled that I get to introduce you to my friend today, Natalie Taylor. Natalie is a certified financial planner, and I think you're going to enjoy her fresh take on value-based financial planning.
Today, she's going to give us a new perspective on being financially fit. [00:01:16] You can find her online at Natalieanntaylor.com. That's Ann with no E. I hope you enjoy our chat.
Hi, Natalie.
Natalie Taylor: Hi, Laura. How are you?
Laura Dugger: Great. How are you doing?
Natalie Taylor: I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: We are so honored to have you on the show today. If someone out there listening doesn't know you yet, can you just give us a current glimpse into your life?
Natalie Taylor: Sure. I live in Santa Barbara. I am a financial planner, a CFP. I've been a financial planner for 13 years. The first eight years I was in private practice down in San Diego in California and for the last five years, I've been working for a startup in the financial services space aimed at making financial planning affordable and accessible for, I would say, the 99% for all the people who typically the financial services industry doesn't aim towards. So that's me.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. And then even looking back in time, what age were you when you knew that you wanted to work in something finance-related? [00:02:18]
Natalie Taylor: You know, I honestly didn't know what a financial planner was until I was one when I was 23. So that's when I started in this line of work. It really has been a calling for me, but I honestly didn't know what it was. I've always been good at math. I always tracked my savings. I'm just wired that way.
I was the bank for my sister because she would spend her allowance and I would lend money to her when she ran out. So I've always been financially minded but I just never really knew about this career path. So honestly, it wasn't until I became one that I really knew this is what I wanted to do.
And I would say that all of those things that sound like they make sense for reasons that I'm a good financial planner, that I love math, that I'm savings-minded, those really aren't the things that make a successful financial planner.
To me, what's most important is understanding how to get to know somebody, what's important to them, what they want to accomplish, and then finding a way to partner with them to empower them to make better decisions. [00:03:18] And that's really the part that I thrive on, that I love, that gets me going every day.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I can totally see that with your personality. And now knowing you for years, you're amazing at that.
Natalie Taylor: Aw, thanks.
Laura Dugger: So from your professional experience, how do you see finances impacting people's relationships or their lives in general?
Natalie Taylor: I mean, I think finances are such a key part of our everyday life. There's no way to get around them. We have to interact with money to live in the US and really virtually anywhere else. And I think it has a huge effect on people's relationships, either positive or negative, or sometimes a mix. I'm sure we've all heard it's a common cause of divorce, a common cause of stress and tension in relationships.
I think money really touches on some of those patterns and things that we learned from our upbringing. Whether we mimic what we learned or we do the opposite of what we learned growing up, so much of that is subconscious and it's not something that we really talk about in our culture. [00:04:21]
So we come into relationships with a lot of, I think, subconscious patterns and habits and feelings and emotions around money that often we're not even aware that we have and then we bring those into a relationship with somebody else who has their whole set. I think that's a lot of the reason why there can be stress and tension around finances.
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. So let's just zero in. Could you give an example of a married couple and what that might look like? Typically, are they similar in their upbringings, or do you often find that people are opposites of the person they marry financially?
Natalie Taylor: That's a great question, Laura. I'll never forget, Laura, one of my favorite things that you've ever said is that your love language is questions. I love that you are doing these podcasts because it is a way that you are showing love. So that's a great question.
I find that it's very common to have a mix of like... if we just do two broad categories, spender and saver, it's very common to have one of each. [00:05:24] Sometimes it goes one way or the other, the male or the female or whoever in the relationship is one or the other. Or sometimes two savers meet or two spenders meet. There's benefits and costs to all of those dynamics.
But I think, you know, you asked for an example. Even for my own life, I am a saver who married a spender. A lot of that has to do with the way that we were brought up, but we never realized it until we actually talked about what we learned about finances growing up.
I am the daughter of a business owner, a business owner who had seasons of plenty and seasons of scarcity. I watched my mom, who was primarily a stay-at-home mom, plan trips for Hawaii when things were good and freak out and make us eat at nowhere else than Del Taco when things were not as great. And I did not like that imbalance. That felt very uncomfortable to me. So I think that's a lot of where that savor in me comes from. [00:06:17]
My husband is also the son of a business owner, but his reaction to those swings in income in his family was that he kind of took on the spending, the big spender habits of his dad in particular. And just discovering that, just knowing that has helped us know each other better and be a lot more understanding and empathetic as we work through the ways that we see finances differently and the different ways that we approach what we should be doing with our money together.
Laura Dugger: That's amazing. Thank you for sharing a personal example just so we can get to know you better. And just witnessing you two work together, grace is the word that comes to mind. You two have found how to celebrate your differences and just really make it work for your relationship. So I love that you're sharing that.
Natalie Taylor: Aw, thanks. I appreciate that. I am an ESTJ that married an ENFP and a spender that met a saver. We found a way to make those things work for us and look at them as a strength and not a weakness. [00:07:18] I think that's helped us move forward in a positive direction rather than just being frustrated that the other one doesn't see things the way that we do.
Laura Dugger: That's a great tip for marriage. And if anybody's wondering what those letters mean, we'll have to do a different podcast someday on the Myers-Briggs and personality profiles.
Natalie Taylor: Oh, yeah, that would be great.
Laura Dugger: So bringing it back to finances, what are some common questions that you're asked by your clients?
Natalie Taylor: Well, I've been a financial planner for almost 15 years, and I've worked with, I would say, over a thousand clients one-on-one in addition to speaking to groups and fielding questions via email. So I get asked all kinds of things.
I would say some of the most common ones are around how to have a budget that doesn't make you feel totally constrained, like being on a crash diet, and how to have a budget that works even when unexpected things happen.
I'll have clients tell me, "I have a budget that works in a normal month, but I haven't had a normal month in six months." [00:08:20] That's a very common question and a very common source of frustration.
We can talk a little bit more later about some strategies around that but in general I am a huge proponent of built-in release valves, I call them, in your budget, in your financial life, that give you the flexibility and freedom to flex with unexpected things. And it goes beyond just maybe having an emergency fund set aside but within your budget planning on having unexpected things happen and saving for them.
So, making sure that you have an extra little pot of money that's meant to be used — you just don't know exactly when you'll use it. It's different than an emergency fund. It's just a little built-in release valve to save up an extra few dollars in those months where the budget goes well, so that you have those extra dollars in the months where the budget has something that you weren't expecting.
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting. And then a few more questions with that, do you find that even people who are getting the same paycheck the same time each month their budget still fluctuates month to month, even though they know what their income will be? Does that make sense? [00:09:28]
Natalie Taylor: Yes. It's a great question. Yes, absolutely. Fluctuating income is obviously one way that your budget can feel abnormal. But I think just in the course of normal life, there are so many expenses that we can't anticipate.
I have a three-year-old and a five-year-old. And I'll say, and I have a 36-year-old. And all three of my boys have broken limbs in the last 12 months. I now know the orthopedics in town very well and I know that it costs about $250 out of pocket when my husband or my two kids break their arm or their ankle or whatever.
I don't know when those things are going to happen, but I'm pretty darn sure those weren't the last three breaks we'll have. So those are the kinds of things that we can't anticipate but are likely to happen. And those are the kinds of things that can throw off a budget, even if your income is consistent.
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry about the broken bones.
Natalie Taylor: Everybody is healed and happy. So cross your fingers. I am knocking on wood right now.
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Well, glad for the good report. [00:10:28] Where do you often get resistance from clients?
Natalie Taylor: I would say one of the most common areas of resistance is when it comes down to it not being willing to change habits or spending behavior. I think the reason for that is because a lot of clients that I meet, when I meet them they don't really know why they would.
It's like going on a diet but you don't really know what you're trying to accomplish, it's gonna be really hard to say no to an ice cream sundae. But if you know, well, this is what we want for our lives and this is what we want for ourselves and this is the kind of flexibility and freedom that we want to be able to live in, so I'm going to choose these yeses, and I'm going to choose these nos, then it makes it a lot easier to change those habits. But if you don't really know why you're doing it, like the root of why you're doing it, it's really hard to stick with or be motivated to do.
Then I think another one is especially in relationships not talking about finances. I've had clients who have hidden $30,000 of credit card debt on an annual basis, like a repeated pattern over and over coming into my office to meet with their husband to tell them about their secret credit card debt. And a lot of that has to do with not having the language to talk about finances, not understanding your background with finances.
How did you respond to the way that you were brought up? How was your spouse brought up? How does that influence the way that you think and feel and act around money now? [00:11:54] I'd say those are some of the common points of resistance.
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. And then how do you help them reach breakthrough?
Natalie Taylor: One of the main things that I do with clients and when I speak with groups is talk about values and what's truly important to you because I think those are really the basis for setting goals. And then tools like having a budget or saving or investing or paying down debt, those are really just tools to get you to where you want to go.
But if you start with values, for example, generosity could be a value that you have, how do you implement that? Well, we know what the value is. Let's set a goal around it. I want to start with 25 bucks a month or 1% of my income or a certain percentage of every windfall that I receive, every bonus, I'll give X percent or X dollar amount, then you can put a goal to it, and then you know what tools to leverage. [00:12:52] How do I work that into my budget? How do I work that into my savings plan? But without starting at that point of what's really important to me, your financial life can easily feel out of alignment.
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. And so you've noticed once your clients go through that and they're able to have that vocabulary around finances and then learn their values, you think that's typically a point where they will break through to the next level?
Natalie Taylor: Yes. It changes the conversation when you start out with shared values. For example, my husband and I, our values are community, family, health, generosity, adventure, and meaningful work. Those are the things that are most important to us in life.
So when we're struggling with a financial decision, or we're just trying to figure out what the right next step is, we filter it through those six things that are really core to what's important to us. Sometimes that doesn't lead you to the decision that means the most money, but it leads you to the decision that creates the most contentment. [00:13:55]
I'll give you an example of that. This last year, my husband and I have both experienced some solid career growth, which has been wonderful, but it's meant that both of us have traveled quite a bit. We haven't had as much time to be together as a family.
Our health has suffered because we haven't been able to get into any normal workout routine. Our community has suffered because we can't reasonably commit to being with others on any regular basis. And we've just really felt kind of down. And then once we took a moment and filtered that through our values, it was easy to see why. It was like, "Oh, well, we haven't had enough time for family, health, or community. So no wonder, no wonder we're feeling out of sorts."
Laura Dugger: Wow. And so not only did it help you identify it, but now that's your solution to the problem as well. So have you two been able to start putting some things in place to get back to living out those values?
Natalie Taylor: We have, yeah. [00:14:53] So they're unfolding over time, but yes. It was like one of those aha moments. And we've known our values for 10 years, but just refiltering was that key to help us understand, Okay, here's what's out of alignment and so what changes can we make to get us back into alignment?
So my husband's going to be making a change at work, that will mean less travel for him. I will be exiting my corporate career season and entering some more consulting and speaking and writing work, which I'm so excited about and is incredibly meaningful to me and will mean more hours with my family. So we are figuring out ways.
And it's going to mean less money but more contentment, and that's a great decision to be able to make. So the right decision doesn't always mean more money or the ability to save more. So yeah, we're excited about it.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I'm excited for you. I can't wait to see where it goes. [00:15:44]
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Today's episode is made possible by our Central Illinois sponsor, Leman Property Management. They offer over 1,600 apartment homes throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton.
Whether you're looking for the newest property in the hottest area of town or an economical location where you can get the most value for your dollar, they have you covered. From efficiency apartments to 4-bedroom units and single-family homes, Leman Property Management has been providing a place for people to call home for nearly 40 years.
Whenever you start a search for a rental, start that search with Leman Property Management. With a professional and friendly staff to serve you from the first time you walk in their doors, you won't be disappointed.
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com, and there you can search for their different communities. You can also like them on Facebook or call their leasing office at (309) 346-4159. [00:16:46]
Laura Dugger: Even as you're mentioning these values, I bet people are listening just thinking, how did you come up with those? Is there a list? How can they identify some of their values?
Natalie Taylor: You know, there are some lists if you look online of like, what are my values or values exercise? You can find some lists. And really you don't have to pick things that are on the list. I've gone through values exercises with clients for many years and sometimes they make up their own either phrases or words even that combine things that are meaningful to them, that represent a value that's important to them. And that's awesome.
So it's not prescribed. Yours don't have to be the same as what mine are. They likely aren't. And that's great. I'm sure you can Google and find some values lists. Those are a great place to start. But really just having a conversation about like, at the end of the day, what are the things that are most important to us, that if we had these things in place, our life would be joyful, our life would be content? [00:17:43]
Laura Dugger: What is something that you most want for your clients and then how do you help them get there?
Natalie Taylor: Gosh, at the end of the day, what I want most for my clients is that they have peace of mind and contentment and empowerment, to be able to find the changes they need to make and the actions that they need to take to be in a place where they have peace of mind or contentment.
Honestly, I think the best way to go about that is to figure out really what's most important to you. And then set some goals around those things so that you can move towards them. And then you can line up your tools, like a budget, and saving and investing and all those things to get you to where you want to go. Peace of mind, contentment, empowerment.
I have a very teach-them-to-fish mentality, which is why I enjoy things like public speaking because I don't need you to need me I want to teach you what you need to know so that you can go out into the world and feel empowered to do it because I think there's a lot of mystique around finances that you need a certain set of expertise or oh, I'm not good with numbers. [00:18:44]
Honestly, there's so much that is so much simpler than I think the financial services industry maybe wants people to understand. That's what I love most.
I love when a client comes back to me and says, "I think I should do A, B, C, D, and E. What do you think?" And I say, "Yes, that's exactly what you should do. You don't need me anymore. You've got it. You know what's important to you. You know what your goals are and you know the tools in your toolbox and how to use them and when to use them, you're good."
Laura Dugger: Yes, that would be so rewarding. Such a great moment.
Hey friends, I just wanted to give you a quick reminder that we're asking for ratings and reviews on whatever platform you use to listen to this podcast.
If you would be willing, could you also hit subscribe to the podcast and share this with a friend? Thanks for listening. Now back to the show.
Going back a little bit, you had mentioned generosity. What kind of encouragement do you have for us about being generous?
Natalie Taylor: You know, I want to be really careful with this one just because everybody's values are unique to them. [00:19:44] The big caveat here is if generosity is among the values that are important to you, then I definitely have some guidance on how to build that into your life. But values are the basis for finding contentment in your finances and really in your life.
So if generosity is a value, the next step after you identify that is to make a game plan or set a goal to pursue it. And in goal setting, I'm a strong proponent of setting milestones. Starting with a step. Don't worry about climbing the mountain, just start with your first step.
So if your goal is to ultimately be able to give away a certain dollar amount per year, maybe we want to give away $5,000 a year, or $100 a month is our ultimate goal, or 10% of our income, or something completely different, knowing what your end goal is is important.
And then you kind of walk that back and say, what's the first meaningful milestone that we can work towards? So let's say your goal is that you want to give 10% of all of your income, but that seems overwhelming right now. You don't know where the money is going to come from. Start with 1%. And every six months, try to bump it by 1%. [00:20:49] Or start with $25 a month and then bump it by $5 every month.
But start somewhere and set some milestones that you can reach to ultimately get you to where you want to be. I think a lot of times people get overwhelmed by the end goal of, oh my gosh, giving away 10% is just crazy. I don't know where the money would come from. That's okay. Figure it out along the way. Start with 1%.
Another great way to be generous and to kind of work in giving into your finances is to allocate a portion of every windfall. So when I say windfall, I mean just money that's not part of your day-to-day income.
So maybe it's a bonus from work, maybe it's a commission check, maybe it's a financial gift, maybe it's a tax refund. But make it a point to allocate a portion. Maybe it's a flat dollar amount: every time I have a windfall, I'm going to put an extra $25 towards generosity. Or maybe it's a percentage: every time I have an extra windfall, I'm going to put 5% of it towards, or 50% of it, whatever feels right for you, towards generosity. [00:21:55]
Laura Dugger: That's so good. I don't want to embarrass you, but I have a little story of my own as well, if you don't mind.
Natalie Taylor: Yes.
Laura Dugger: So, for people that don't know, Natalie and I met a while ago when we were actually both living in Southern California. And this was back... we both were married, but neither one of us had kids yet. And at that time, my husband and I were in a season of really tight finances.
She invited us out for her birthday with a group of friends. Community is one of our values as a couple as well, so we definitely wanted to go out with friends, and we love Natalie and her husband Ryan. So we didn't want to say no, but the restaurant where we were going was a little bit beyond our price point.
So I remember we adjusted our budget that month, and I think we lived on peanut butter and jelly and eggs for most of our dinners just to save some extra money for this special night out. [00:22:51] So the night came, it was so fun, filled with tons of laughter. And when the check came, you guys, Natalie and Ryan picked it up for everyone as a surprise. So here it was, her birthday, and she bought all of us dinner.
And I just remember you, Natalie, talking about you and Ryan both had budgeted every month one of your accounts that you each individually had was fun money. And you decided to spend your fun money by treating all of us to dinner. And it's just an act of generosity I have never forgotten.
Natalie Taylor: Oh, Laura, you're turning me red and I'm honestly getting teary-eyed. Oh, it was so special for us to get to be with everybody. We will often do that on our birthdays. That's our big gift for ourselves is to take our close friends out for dinner. But oh, that's very sweet that you shared that. I am just totally beat red. So I'm glad we're on a podcast and not, hu, in a TV interview. [00:23:48]
Laura Dugger: Oh, well, I'm sorry, I don't want to embarrass you. I get choked up every time I share it as well, and so does Mark. But really, thank you. So I just want people to know, you practice these principles personally, the ones that you're sharing about.
Natalie Taylor: Aw, thanks. I appreciate that, Laura.
Laura Dugger: All right, let's move on to some practical steps. For someone who's out there listening and they want to improve the management of their current finances, how would you help them determine what their values are? Kind of going back to what we had mentioned earlier about values.
Natalie Taylor: So I think doing a values exercise or just really sitting down and having a conversation about what's really important to us, I think that's the place where you start. From there, setting your goals based on those values.
You know, some of those goals are just going to be goals that are just good financial stewardship, like having an emergency fund or saving for retirement. You may not feel like, well, saving for retirement isn't really reflecting family, health, generosity, community, meaningful work, or adventure for Ryan and I, but saving for retirement and figuring out the budget decisions that we need to make to be able to save for retirement, those very much do have to do with our values. [00:25:01] So what are we going to give up?
I have a little story around that. I have another friend who, from the same church that Laura and I attended together, they really valued community. And when they looked at their budget when they very first got married, they said, Oh my gosh, when we combine it, we're spending like six, $700 on restaurants a month. And this is crazy. We're going to spend nothing on restaurants anymore. We'll increase our grocery budget a little bit. But this is really a big area of opportunity for us." And they were miserable.
And what they didn't realize is that community is really important to them. And for them, one of the primary ways that they experienced community was going out to eat together. So when they cut out their restaurant budget, what they didn't realize is they were also cutting out community.
So when we had a conversation about it and realized that, we talked about, Okay, so what are some ways that you can experience community that maybe don't cost $600 or $700 a month on restaurants, maybe it's $200 a month on potlucks or happy hours or other ways to experience community so that you can still honor your value but make progress on the financial goals that you're trying to accomplish. [00:26:12]
So knowing those values really helps you make decisions that you can stick with because you can make sure that you're honoring those values in your everyday decisions.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. I feel like I just learned so much and have this flood of ideas of what we can be doing for a community as a value. Could we just go through maybe like three other values and what that would look like for somebody to make their budget reflect that value?
Natalie Taylor: Yeah. Health as a value, I think, is a great example because some people might be prone to say, "Oh, well, health's a value." So my gym membership and my SoulCycle and, you know, the treadmill that's under my bed, these are all worthwhile purchases because they are in alignment with health.
At the surface level, that's true. But what's important is to kind of double click there and say, are there ways for me to honor that health value in a way that still allows me to work towards my other financial goals as well? [00:27:17] And that decision might be stick with the expensive gym membership and that's okay. But it might not.
So you have to have a willingness to look at “how can I express this value in a way that works both for my values and for my finances?”. Sometimes the answer is keep something in your budget that's more expensive. Sometimes the answer is a trade down like, well, I don't need the very expensive gym, but I can trade down to the one that's $100 instead of $400 a month, or $30 instead of $50 a month. So just figuring out and using that as your filter for making those kinds of decisions.
Laura, I'll put you on the spot. What is a value that you and Mark have?
Laura Dugger: Let's go with meaningful work.
Natalie Taylor: Yeah, so let's talk about meaningful work. In pursuing meaningful work, it's going to lead you to look at your career and your income differently. So when you're in pursuit of meaningful work, making more money, although helpful for making progress in your financial goals, if it's not in alignment with your value of meaningful work, you are much more likely to find yourself unfulfilled and unhappy six months, a year, two years into that role. [00:28:28] So it gives you a different filter.
If you're looking for a new job and you've got a few offers on the table, the one that is most lucrative from a financial standpoint may not be the right one. You may want to value the one where you are helping a population of people that you're passionate about or involved with a product that you really like yourself.
You know, you don't all have to be saving the world through meaningful work. Meaningful work might just be that you want to work for a company where you love the culture and you love the people there. So it's a different lens through which to look at financial decisions.
Of course, finances are still an important component there. So if a non-meaningful job pays you $200,000 a year and a meaningful job pays you $500 a year, you may need to find something in the middle or go with that $200,000 job for a temporary period of time. So it can't be your only filter, but I think it's a really important lens to use as you're making those decisions. [00:29:26]
Laura Dugger: Such a balanced answer, that it can't be the only deciding factor. I like that. I'll give you one more value that came to me. I've heard a lot of people say, "We just value freedom or flexibility." What might that look like with their budget?
Natalie Taylor: That's a great question. So I think one of the best, very tangible things you can do to incorporate flexibility and freedom... well, I'll say two things. And these are more like financial strategies that you can do to honor those values.
But one of them is having money set aside. I'm gonna call it an emergency fund but really it's just a pot of money that allows you to have the flexibility to make proactive decisions instead of being forced to make decisions that you don't want.
So for example maybe your emergency fund is there to replace the water heater that goes or to fix your car when it breaks down. But maybe your emergency fund is also there that if your job is just not the right place for you and you have to make a change and you cannot wait a moment longer, and you know you can get another job but you just don't have it lined up at this moment, but the irons are in the fire and the offers are just about to roll in, your emergency fund is your freedom fund that you can say, "I'm all done. I'm leaving. Today's my last day." [00:30:50] It gives you the freedom to be able to make decisions that you couldn't otherwise make.
Then the other one is a fun account, which Laura referenced before. That's what Ryan and I used when we took our friends out for dinner for my birthday. But I love the idea of a fun account. The fun account, it's definitely not a marriage saver, I can't be that dramatic, but it is key, especially when you're managing finances as a team.
The idea of the fun account is it's a separate account. It's not your emergency fund. It's not your retirement account. It's not your mark towards any goals. The goal of this account is to have fun.
And you may be able to save into it on a monthly basis. Maybe it's $100 a month or $500 a month or $25 a month. And you may be able to allocate a portion of all those windfalls that we were talking about. So commissions or bonuses or gifts, financial gifts. Put a percentage of those into the fun account.
And then you're growing this pot of money that's there to just use totally carefree, guilt-free, spend, splurge, do it. It's a nice release valve for you to have. And you can use it in any way you want. [00:32:00] You can use it to give away to other people if that's what you want to use it for. You can use it to spend a day at the spa.
You can use it to buy, in the case of my husband and I, a new guitar. I married a recovering musician and a lot of our fund account goes to amps or pedal boards or guitars and that's great. It allows my husband the freedom to be able to have a splurge once in a while while still making progress towards our goals.
Even though he's a spender, he can feel good about all the progress we're making on our goals because he has the release valve of our fun account that he knows if he wants something that's out of the everyday budget that we typically wouldn't be able to afford on a monthly basis, we've got the fun account to splurge with.
Laura Dugger: And people can implement that today. All right, Natalie, this has been incredible. So you said that you're transitioning into new things professionally. If our listeners want to find you and connect, where can they find you?
Natalie Taylor: Oh, thanks for asking that question. [00:33:00] They can find me online. We can maybe put a link in the show notes. Would that be okay?
Laura Dugger: That would be great. We'll put your website there and any other notes that we need to include from this episode.
Natalie Taylor: Awesome.
Laura Dugger: Our listeners know that we're called Savvy at this podcast for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear some insight from your life, Natalie, to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Natalie Taylor: I love this question. It's such a good one. I hate to say something that I've already said, but I really think that 'fun account' concept is something that you can do today, that you can implement. I would be hard-pressed to think that if you manage your finances with someone else, that they wouldn't be into the idea of having a release valve splurge account where you can really just enjoy. [00:33:54] I think it's such an important thing.
Especially if you have tangible bonuses from hard work accomplished, it's important that you set aside a part of that to really enjoy and to savor. So I would say the fun account is probably my savvy sauce.
Laura Dugger: And you have just laid an incredible foundation. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. It's been incredibly helpful. You're so insightful and just full of grace as you share all of these principles. So thank you, Natalie.
Natalie Taylor: Oh, thanks. Thanks so much for having me.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:34:53] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? [00:35:53] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:36:57] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 24, 2018
Monday Sep 24, 2018
9. Self-Care in Motherhood With Karen Stubbs, Founder of Birds on a Wire
**Transcription Below**
James 1:5 (NIV) “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.”
Karen Stubbs is the founder and leader of Birds on a Wire, a ministry designed to equip moms through truth, encouragement and community. She is the author of 3 books, Letters to Moms, Moments with God and Tips on Motherhood. She has also developed small group curricula for moms that is being used across the United States and in nine countries. Karen is the wife of Greg Stubbs and they have four grown children. She is passionate about challenging moms to experience motherhood in the way God intended it for them and their families.
At The Savvy Sauce, we only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Karen Stubbs:
Moments With God for Moms: 365 Devotions
Moments With God for Moms: 365 Devotions-Lux Leather Edition
Six Truths Of Motherhood - Study Guide
Personality Plus for Parents by Florence Littauer
The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman
The Five Love Languages of Children by Gary Chapman and Ross Campbell
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode.
Y'all are in for a treat. I get to say "y'all" because today we have a lovely Southern woman as our guest. Karen Stubbs is the founder of the non-profit ministry for moms called Birds on a Wire.
Karen resides in Atlanta with her husband, Greg. They have successfully launched their four adult children. She was traveling to central Illinois for one of her programs, and so I had the pleasure of interviewing her in person.
The night before we recorded, we went out to a local pizza place to get to know each other better. She is the real deal. She is so full of joy and willing to answer any question on motherhood. [00:01:13]
In this episode, we discuss how to take care of ourselves as moms, where to find wisdom for our daily tasks of motherhood, and how to be a student of our children. So here's today's episode with Karen Stubbs.
Good morning, Karen. Thanks so much for joining us at The Savvy Sauce today.
Karen Stubbs: Thank you so much, Laura, for having me.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Well, you are the guru on motherhood, so we're going to camp out there today. It's so common to hear as a mom that mom guilt never goes away. What is your advice for moms who are battling guilt?
Karen Stubbs: You're right. It is such a go-to because we just feel bad, you know, all the time. Like we feel bad whenever our child gets hurt. We feel bad whenever we've disciplined and they say, "Mommy, you hurt my feelings. You're making me sad." Then we're like, "Oh, I don't want to make them sad," you know, kind of thing.
But I think we just have to ask ourselves a question: Have we committed a sin? If you've not committed a sin, it's not your fault that they fell and scraped their knees. [00:02:17] It's not your fault that they feel bad that you've disciplined them. They should feel bad. They got in trouble. And we want to spare them from all these negative feelings, but that's life.
So we just got to realize this is part of growing up. And if I keep my child from all these things that might potentially hurt them, hurt their feelings, whatever, I'm really doing them a disservice because whenever they go out into the world they're just going to be trampled on and that's going to bring a lot of anxiety and that kind of thing. So you just have to ask yourself, am I committing a sin here?
Now, if you are constantly screaming at your child, abusing them, locking them in a closet, yeah, you should feel guilty about that. That's not a good thing. You know what I'm saying? So you're like, "Yeah, I just committed a sin. I shouldn't have treated my child that way. That wasn't nice of me." You know what I'm saying? But if you're doing your mom duties, then you don't need to feel guilty. [00:03:17]
Don't feel guilty because you get frustrated with your children because we all get frustrated with our children. Because we want them to do certain things and they don't do it, and that frustrates us. That's human nature.
Laura Dugger: Which leads us into the next question. You mentioned that being a mom is hard. Why should we expect it to be difficult?
Karen Stubbs: Well, it is. It's just really difficult. Our responsibility is to train up our child in the way they should go. That's what God tells us. He also tells us that children are to obey our parents. But it's hard, because as much as we are trying to teach them, guide them, influence their decisions, they are pushing against us at every turn, every step.
It starts when they're toddlers, and it doesn't ever stop. You know, in the teen years, they're still pushing against you. So it's hard. We feel like we're going up a mountain with a backpack on, carrying a suitcase. [00:04:20] You know what I mean? And you're just trudging through. And that's what it is like being a mom. It is hard. But God tells us that He's there with us and He's going to guide us. He's going to give us wisdom. So we just need to start really leaning into Him.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. For you personally, raising four children with a husband that traveled frequently, what was hard for you during different seasons of motherhood?
Karen Stubbs: Oh, gosh. Do we have all day? What was hard? Just doing it alone a lot of the time was hard. Not having Greg to have my back. There was no "we're going to talk about this when your dad gets home because he may not be home for two weeks."
I mean, I really have a huge heart for single moms because they do it all the time. At least Greg did come home. You know what I'm saying? Single moms, it's all on their shoulders.
What else was hard? Those younger years were really hard. Just because they're all young, they're all little, you just can't ever do enough no matter what you do. "I want more. Mommy this, mommy this, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy." I told you yesterday I just got so sick of hearing the word "mommy". [00:05:29]
And then it's hard when they're young physically. When they're teenagers, it's hard emotionally because now we've upped the stakes of the game and their actions and their choices have lifelong consequences sometimes. So you get even more crazy.
As a mom and you're like, "Oh, for the love, you know, this is really a big deal. It wasn't a big deal when you were four. But now you're, you know, 17 and this is a big deal." It's just hard.
Laura Dugger: Maybe that's one of the reasons that you've always mentioned on your own podcast that it's important for moms to take care of themselves. What does that actually look like, practically speaking? How can a mom take good care of herself?
Karen Stubbs: I think it's a balancing act. I think of baby, infant season, that's a time where you got to be all in because that baby is just so dependent on you. There's not a lot of self-care during that time. [00:06:26] You're getting up in the middle of the night. You are nursing. If you are nursing, you feel like a human cow. But if you're not nursing, you're still getting up in the middle of the night.
So you walk around with bags under your eyes. You try to sleep in the afternoon, maybe they don't take a good nap that day. That's just a hard time. Period. And you've got to be there for the baby, because the baby cannot obviously feed themselves.
As the baby gets older, I just think it's different for different people. Some moms really need to read a book by themselves. You know, maybe just find 30 minutes in the afternoon to flip through a magazine, to read a book, whatever helps her. For me, I like taking bubble baths at night. That's relaxing to me.
I used to get sitters in the middle of the day just to even go to the grocery store because that was just nice for me to walk through the grocery store without having four kids, putting things in the buggy. "No, we're not gonna have that cereal this week. Put that back. No, we're just coming in here to get diapers and milk and fruit and that's it." And then you walk out and you've got $150 in your buggy and you're like, "What in the world?" you know? [00:07:36]
Maybe it is going to Starbucks, swinging by Starbucks and just getting yourself your special drink and everybody else saying, "I want blah, blah, blah," and you're like, "Nope, this is just a mommy day. This is a mommy drink and you're not going to have any mommy drinks and no, you will not have a sip. This is just for me."
Sometimes it's just when you go through the grocery store and you see the fresh-cut flowers, you just say, "You know what? I'm going to get those." And you put them in your buggy, and you put them in a vase when you get home. And every time you walk by, you just, "Oh, that's beautiful and that brings me joy."
It could be something as simple as that to something as taking a girls weekend trip and getting away. It just depends on what stage of life you're in.
Laura Dugger: That's great. I love how you mention a balance. Do you think that there's any signals that would let us know as a mom if we're getting too much self-care or not enough?
Karen Stubbs: Oh, that's a great question. Well, most of us don't have to worry about too much self-care because usually our husbands or our children will be like, "Hey babe, you've got your nails done five times this month and I think that's a little much," or whatever. [00:08:46]
On the other side, I think whenever you are just in a constant state of frustration, you know what I'm saying, that's a good sign that you need a break. Whenever you find yourself, I am constantly yelling at my kids for no reason, you know, I mean, they're just... I'd say, "Pick up your shoes," and then they're like, whatever. And you're like, [yelling] "Pick up your shoes." You know what I'm saying? You're like, "Whoa, I need to take a step back here. I'm a little out of, you know... I'm going to crazy land." Those were always my signs.
Whenever my kids were just getting on my nerves, I was like, "I need a break. I need to walk away from you. I need to get out of this house, leave you with the sitter so that whenever I come back home, I'm actually excited to see you and I want to be around you."
Laura Dugger: That's so freeing to hear. I love that. What about rest then? What does rest and re-energizing look like for a mom who's still got kids at home? [00:09:45]
Karen Stubbs: Well, sort of the same thing. What brings you rest? For me, I'm an extrovert, so being around my friends brought me rest. For an introvert, that's like the kiss of death. You know what I'm saying?
Laura Dugger: Sure.
Karen Stubbs: So I would call my girlfriends, "Hey, let's go to a movie. Let's go out to eat. Let's go just..." Even if you sometimes have your children with you, let's go to the park. If you'll meet me at the park, the kids can play, you and I can sit on the bench and talk and chat, and I could just have some adult conversation. That brings me rest. I really enjoy that.
Like I said, if you're an introvert, that's probably not gonna do it for you. So you need to think, Okay, I need to be alone. I need to be quiet." I've had some friends—this is hilarious—that will just get a hotel room for the night, just by themselves, nobody else, and just be. Which is crazy, but they love that. Like, that brings them energy. That brings them rest. [00:10:42]
Maybe some Saturday, just say, "Sweetie, will you just let me sleep in until 9 o'clock, and you just take the kids." I will say this for Greg, as much as he traveled, whenever he was home, he didn't have anything to do. Like, his job is flying, and so once he left the plane, he was completely done.
So he would always let me sleep in on the mornings he was home. If it was a school morning, he'd get the kids up, he'd get them dressed. Even if I was awake, I would just lay in my bed and listen to it and not have to get out and go be engaged with it. And it was so freeing and so restful to me. Does that make sense?
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I love how that even ties back into your first answer, that taking that rest and re-energizing. We may naturally feel a little bit of guilt there, but we just ask ourselves, are we committing a sin? No.
Karen Stubbs: Well, and I think, too, it was good for Greg to see what all I went through. So if I would have gotten up and went and helped, because, you know, you would hear them, where's my notebook? And I knew where it was. But I was just like, "Well, nobody's here in the mornings to tell me where their notebook is." So, I'm just gonna lay here and see how Greg figures it out. And they always got it figured out, you know? [00:11:53]
So, sometimes I'll be like, "I feel guilty, I should get up." And I'm like, "No, I'm not. I'm just gonna sit tight." And maybe that's bad, I don't know. But it got me through it.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Very real. Love it. So, for you personally, when you are needing wisdom, where do you get wisdom as a mom?
Karen Stubbs: Well, my mom is full of wisdom. I have to say she's pretty wise. The Bible. James 1.5 says, "If anyone lacks wisdom, I will give it to you." I leaned in heavily in on that verse, especially when I lived in Virginia, far away from my mom, and it was always a long-distance call. And you can't be calling your mom like 24-7. She's like, "Figure it out. I did it myself, you gotta figure it out."
But the Bible, mentor, friends. I have three ladies in my life that are about 15 years ahead of me in the journey, and I usually call them and, "Hey"—I run this idea by them—"what do you think? Am I crazy right now? Should I stand my ground?" And they're great in helping give me wisdom on stuff like that. [00:12:58]
Laura Dugger: Sorry to interrupt, but just in case somebody hasn't ever heard this before, let's say that exact verse. So it's found in the Bible in the New Testament in the book of James 1:5. And it says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."
Well, and then with a mentor for somebody listening today, what if they say, I want that. I want somebody 15 years ahead of me. How did you find a mentor and how would you advise us to look for one?
Karen Stubbs: Oh, that's a great question. These are great questions, Laura. I would pray. I would ask God, Bring someone into my life. I would look around, maybe in your church, maybe in the school system, maybe your community, and see someone that is older than you. They need to be through the stages that you're in right now. [00:13:54] They've finished them.
Look at her kids, look at her marriage, see, you know, is she a good example that I want to follow after? If she gives me advice, do I want to follow her advice? So really look at her life and then go and ask her, "Hey, I know we aren't even really that great of friends, but I would love for you to mentor your little bit further ahead than me, and would you be open to just being my mentor?
And ladies that mentor me, we just go to lunch. That's all we do. They don't have any kind of agenda. We just talk and we just go to lunch. And that works.
Laura Dugger: It's so neat to see we're beneficiaries of all of that. Oh, yeah, even with your podcast, I would recommend everybody tune in to Wire Talk with Karen Stubbs, that's a way of having a mentor as well in a creative solution if you can't find somebody local.
Karen Stubbs: It's true. [00:14:52]
Laura Dugger: It can sometimes be frustrating when moms who are in the next season of life or maybe have no more children in the home always say, "Enjoy these days because the years are short." What's your take on this?
Karen Stubbs: Oh my goodness. I say they're right. The years are short, but the days are super long. And sometimes you just feel like you're never gonna get through a day. So just thinking, Oh my gosh, the year, like I can't even think about a year right now. I'm just trying to get through potty training, or I'm just trying to get my middle schooler to stop rolling their eyes at me. You know what I'm saying? And acting like I'm dumb as dirt.
But I would just say, you know what, the days are hard, and they're just not great. And so it's okay. It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong, because there's not music in the background, and butterflies and rainbows everywhere you're looking, and your children are just obeying you all the time. They're not obeying you. They're saying, no, and I don't want that, and you hurt my feelings, and blah, they're pushing against you. [00:15:55] So it is hard.
I just think recognize that as such, and then just be like, You know what, they are hard, but I'm going to embrace it, and I'm going to have a good attitude, and I'm going to move forward, and one day I will get through this.
My children are all grown, and I'm a grandmother, and I love and adore my grandchildren, and I just went out to California for a week and it was hard. By the end of the day, I was tired. You know what I'm saying? And when I got on the plane, I hated leaving them. But I was sort of glad to get back to some peace and quiet and all of that kind of stuff.
So, it's okay to have these feelings and it's frustrating and that's alright. You're not doing anything wrong. Actually, you're doing a lot right if you're feeling that.
Laura Dugger: Which is always good to hear. And then when you were in that phase, so you had four that were all... was it under the age of seven?
Karen Stubbs: Seven, yeah. So seven, five, three, and then Abby was a baby. [00:16:54]
Laura Dugger: Okay. So when they were all at home, what did you do to make those days, I guess, more enjoyable or what did you do to embrace that season and appreciate it?
Karen Stubbs: Well, I think maybe because Greg traveled so much I made my kids very independent. Looking back, that was something I'm glad I did. I would send my kids outside to play. We had a fence in backyard and I would just send them outside. I would lock the door and I'm like, "You're not coming in until lunch."
And they would be like, "We want water." And I'm like, "There's the hose, drink up." And maybe about 10 o'clock I put a box of goldfish out there. "Here's some fish." And let them figure it out. Then I would get some stuff done in the house.
We had windows all on the back side of our house so I could see everything they were doing. The gates were locked. They couldn't get out. You know what I'm saying? So I felt very safe with them being outside. [00:17:53] That really helped me get through. And then they would take naps in the afternoon.
Kelsey would sit in a room and do things because she was a little bit older. And it was wonderful. That's how I got sort of through the days. I let them play independently. I did not sit and play with them constantly. I was like, "We just played tea party. Now you go play. I got to get some stuff done around the house." That's what I did, and I just let them do it. Then I was a big believer in sitters.
Laura Dugger: I love that.
Karen Stubbs: I love babysitters.
Laura Dugger: Sometimes we don't hear much about that. Sometimes I feel like we, maybe, are given the cultural message that it's not okay to get a sitter. You should be able to do this all on your own. How would you recommend fighting that or what were some truths about babysitters that were good that you could pass on to us?
Karen Stubbs: The way I look at it is any job you do, and being a mom is a job, sorry, but it is, you get breaks. [00:18:54] You get a lunch break, you get to go home at night from your job, and you get to rest. And you come back the next day, and you've got a fresh perspective, and you hit the ground running.
So motherhood is so crazy that the world is put on us, you have to do it all by yourself, and you don't need anybody's help. That is ridiculous. You know what I'm saying? So, why wouldn't I want to give a break? Why wouldn't I want to get some rest? I just think I'd be a crazy loon. You know what I mean?
Obviously, when you get a sitter, you need to love your sitter. If they're going to come into your home, you want to be able to trust them. So, I'm assuming all moms do their homework on that part. My kids loved babysitters. And then the guilt part, I would just say, this is going to make me a better mom.
Laura Dugger: What is your favorite topic to talk about and encourage moms with?
Karen Stubbs: I really have two favorites. So the personalities. You and I were talking about all those last night. I just think it's fascinating. And not just the temperaments, but just how your child is wired. [00:20:00] I just think it's fascinating.
The more you can learn about your child, the better you can parent them. The love languages are important. Their temperaments are important. You know, what skills, talents do they have? Because all my children are very different from me, and if I had just leaned into what I knew, I would have parented them very differently. But I'm glad that God gave me the wisdom enough early on to figure it out, you know, like, how they were wired and then start parenting towards that.
The second topic that I love to talk about is to address the lies that moms believe, and really show them this is a lie, and it's a lie to bring you down, in my opinion, from Satan himself. This is what God says is truth, and the truth will set you free. And if I can free up moms, if I can give them some freedom, I think that brings joy in their life, purpose in their life as a mom, and just more meaning, and then they're not so downtrodden all the time. [00:21:03]
Laura Dugger: Those are incredible topics. Let's camp out on both of those for a little while. So first with the personalities, again we'll link to the show notes about Gary Chapman's love languages book. There's even one for kids, which is great. You've always talked about this book, Personality Plus for Parents by Florence Littauer. Would you share that personality profile with us, that there's four.
Karen Stubbs: Yeah, there's four temperaments. There's choleric, melancholy, phlegmatic, and sanguine. When my son was born, he's my third, he is polar opposite for me. I just did not understand him. I loved him dearly, he was the first boy, just very different from the girls. But when he was about three, well, even younger than three, maybe two, he just... like we'd go into church on Sundays and he would growl at people. Like, he really did not want anyone paying attention to him at all. [00:22:05]
That is so foreign to me because I am a sanguine and the more the attention, the better. Like, "Look at me, you know, I'm pretty special. Look over here," you know, kind of thing. But not Taylor. I mean, Taylor did not even like us to sing him happy birthday. He really didn't. I just didn't understand him.
One of my mentors at the time, she's 10 years older than me, and she said, "You need to read this book. It will help you understand Taylor. He is not like you. I think he's a melancholy." So I read the book. And I was like, Whoa, melancholies are very serious. They're deep thinkers. They're very thoughtful. They're sensitive. I'm not sensitive at all. You know what I'm saying? I'm really not. I'm definitely not a deep thinker. I mean, I can be thoughtful, but I'm not to the level Taylor is thoughtful.
Taylor, as a grown man, last weekend I had been traveling, and I got home from the travel, and he was at the house visiting—he's 23 years old—and he had me a dozen roses in the bedroom right when I walked in because he knew I'd been traveling. He got me pink, my favorite flower. That's how thoughtful he is. Like, he's constantly thinking of others. [00:23:17]
Even when he was little, he was like that. He would bring me little flowers from the yard or whatever. But the fact that he didn't like attention drawn to him, I just didn't understand that. Taylor wanted his space from people. He would get embarrassed very easily. Even if you were praising him it would embarrass him in front of people.
So I didn't understand that so I had to really study up on it and be like, "Oh, you're not weird. This is just really the way God's created you." Because honestly there for a while I thought, "What is wrong with my son? He is so strange." But he wasn't strange. He was just Taylor.
So I had to tell preschool teachers, at church, you know, "Just don't look at him. Don't talk to him. The more you come at him and, 'Hey Taylor, we're so glad you're here,' the worse mood he would get in." Melancholies are very moody. So once they get in a bad mood, forget about it. Like, they're there until they can work themselves out of it. That was another thing I had to give Taylor space. [00:24:20]
The girls would come in from school, they'd sit down at the bar, we'd all talk, "How was your day? What's going on?" They'd blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Taylor would come in, go straight down to the basement where his room was, turn on Spongebob, and just veg out. And he would not say two words. Even one day, I said, "How was your day?" And he goes, "Stop asking me that question every day." And I was like, "Okay." But when he was ready to talk, he would come up, "Hey mom, how are you doing?" And then he would talk. But I had to give him his time.
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful to hear examples. So that's the melancholy. And sometimes you match these with colors. So that's the blue. Could you go around and give a few characteristics of each color or title?
Karen Stubbs: Yes. The next one is Choleric—that's your red—and they are your powerful personality. So they want control from the moment they're born. Kelsey and Abby are my reds. They are very leader-driven, very strong. [00:25:22] They want to be in control.
Their view in life is either get on my highway or get off. You know, I don't care. I'm forging ahead. If you agree with me, that's awesome. Get behind me. But if you're not, I don't care. Move it or lose it kind of thing.
Their weaknesses are they are really strong. That's also a positive, but it's also a weakness. They control by anger. Blues control by their moods. Reds control by their anger. They can smell weakness from a mile away and will... you know, if they think you're weak, they got your number, they're gonna run all over you.
Then there's the phlegmatics. They're greens. They are your real easygoing personality. If you could have one word for them, it would be peace. They want peace at all times. They hate conflict. They hate confrontation. They can be stubborn. You don't see it that often, but whenever you do see it... Like Emily is my green. And when she says, "I'm not going to do it," she's not going to do it, and you can't make her do it. You know what I'm saying? [00:26:31]
She was in high school and she had to raise money to be on the equestrian team. I think they had to raise $1,200 to sell ads for their programs or whatever. With all my kids, whenever they had those types of things, I just said, "I will buy an ad and help you, but it's on you to raise this money, because if you are old enough to be on this type of thing where you're raising money, it's not my job to raise your money. So you gotta raise your own money."
Well, Emily doesn't like confrontation, so she doesn't like to go in and ask people for things, because that feels conflicted to her. And so she just kept putting it off. The greens control by procrastination, because they think, "I'll just keep procrastinating and you'll finally help me."
And I just had known her long enough in her life, and I thought, "I'm not helping her on this one." And I told her from the very beginning, "Emily, if you don't raise your money, it's coming out of your savings account, $1,200." [00:27:34]
So she waited all summer long, and she did not budge. And my father told her, "I will buy a $300 ad from you and she would not even go in and get it from him." And so I just thought, "It's fine." And Greg's like, "Are you really going to make her pay?" And I'm like, "Absolutely, I am. Absolutely." So she only had to pay $900 because eventually, my dad did give her the money. But still, she paid $900 out of her bank account.
But the greens are very easygoing, they're very loving, they're easy, really, especially if you're comparing them to a red. But they can be frustrating for a mom that is red that wants them to get motivated because they have a hard time getting themselves motivated. So the red moms can get very frustrated with their green children.
Then the last one is sanguine and they're yellow and their keyword is just "fun". I just want to have fun. And if life gets hard, they don't want to do it because that's not fun, school's not fun, unless the people part of school is very fun. [00:28:38]
But they are very people-oriented. They are very life of the party. They're great storytellers. They are very engaging with others. Their weaknesses are they can have a hard time finishing projects because it's not fun. After a while, it gets to be hard and they don't want to keep doing it. They can flip from one thing to another.
I was a big flitter in life. I was like a butterfly, like started a lot of things, but had a hard time focusing and finishing them. They control by charm. They can charm the pants off of anybody.
And an example of that was me. When I was in second or third grade, I went to a Christian private school, and we had a field trip to this Bible store close to the school. I'd seen this plaque for my mom, and Mother's Day was coming up, and I didn't have any money on me at the time, but my bus went by this store every day. [00:29:40]
I got in my head... and sanguines are very persistent. Once they get a thought in their head, they will not let it go. And so I sat behind the bus driver, and every day I would say, "Could you please stop by the Bible bookstore? I've got my money. I'll just run in. I'll just get da-da-da." Eventually, he did it.
We stopped the whole bus so I could go in and get this thing for my mom. And my sister was on the bus, and she was like, "Why have we stopped here?" And they're like, "Some little girl's in there buying a gift for her mother for Mother's Day." And Michelle said, when I got back on the bus, she was like, "Oh, of course it was you." You know, that kind of thing.
Laura Dugger: Working your yellow charm.
Karen Stubbs: I know. Usually, yellows and reds are very positive type people. Blues and greens, see it more the glass half empty or negative. My husband's a blue and he says, We're just more realistic. So yellows and reds think they can conquer the world and greens and blues are like, "I don't know. I'm a little bit more cautionary." [00:30:43]
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And that's the beauty of that book that we mentioned too, is it shows you how to interact not only with your child and their temperament, but knowing and understanding yours as well.
Karen Stubbs: And even with your husband.
Laura Dugger: That's a great point. Yes, all relationships. Your other topic that you mentioned you enjoy talking about is lies that moms believe. Would you give just a few examples of the lies they believe and what truth you insert to help overcome those lies?
Karen Stubbs: Oh, absolutely. I have a curriculum called Says Who? And there's two, part one and part two, because there's so many lies. The lie that your husband must complete you, you know, they're your soulmate, that's a lie. It's just a lie. God didn't create anyone to complete you, only He completes you.
That was a hard lesson for me to learn, because I did look to Greg for years to complete me, and for my happiness. And only God can bring you true joy and happiness, not another person.
Now, sometimes God of course allows your husband to make you happy and fill you up and all that and that's great. That's just icing on the cake. But if you're looking to your husband to be your main source of filling your needs, you're setting him up for failure. [00:32:01]
Then a lot of times if mom's don't get their husbands to meet their needs, they start looking to their children to meet their needs. And that's even a worse recipe for disaster because if your husband can't do it, and he's an adult, there's no way a child can fill your needs.
So, so many times as a mom, we do, we put all of our eggs in our children's basket. "You know, and you're gonna bring me joy." They do bring us joy but we start depending on them for that joy. And that is a bad road to get on, because your child is a separate individual from you, and you don't need to be putting that pressure on them. Once again, God is the only one.
Another one is that I don't measure up. As a wife, as a mom, as a friend, whatever. Heck, in our social media culture, we can just look at Facebook one day and be like in the depths of despair because, you know, we're not measuring up. [00:32:58] But that's not true. We do measure up. In Christ we are whole and His grace makes us all new. You know what I'm saying? So it's just we need to embrace that mindset of "I am a child of God, and in Him I am complete".
Laura Dugger: Love that. Thank you for sharing those.
Karen Stubbs: You're welcome. You're welcome.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Here at The Savvy Sauce, we're called Savvy for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear some insight from your life to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what's your savvy sauce?
Karen Stubbs: Oh no, what is my savvy sauce? I think my savvy sauce, my mantra really throughout my whole life is balance. You know, everything in moderation. [00:35:01] Because you can go crazy on both sides, you know, of not doing enough or doing too much. And if my personality would probably tend towards the too much part, but just balance and everything in moderation.
Laura Dugger: And you just have this special way of speaking balance. I think it is something you're very gifted at. And I just appreciate all the work that you've done. I've loved listening to all of your resources, reading your books and I've considered you a mentor now for years and it's just such a pleasure to get to meet with you in person. So thank you for being available and thanks for joining today.
Karen Stubbs: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: And if our listeners want to connect with you, do you have a website or a way that they can?
Karen Stubbs: Yeah. Birdsonowiremoms.com is our website. We have a whole website there. They can ask questions for our podcast, like if they have mom questions. We have a shop, they can look at all the resources. Like say if they like the [lies?] idea, you can pick on that and do that curriculum either with a small group or just by yourself.
Then the Wire Talk with Karen Stubbs is definitely a way they can listen in every week. Then also for fans of Birds on the Wire, we do weekly emails that just go to their inbox, and it's just encouragement for moms. [00:36:24] It's free. The podcast is free, and so yeah. Browse around, see if we can help you out.
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Thank you. There's still so many questions that we have, so would you be willing to come again?
Karen Stubbs: I would love it. Yes, of course.
Laura Dugger: Okay, great. Let's do that. Thanks so much.
Karen Stubbs: You're welcome.
Laura Dugger: Guess what? It's giveaway time again. Today, if you head over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our "Giveaways" tab, you'll see how you can enter to win one of Karen's books, 365 devotions, Moments with God for Moms.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:37:35] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:38:35] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:39:37]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Friday Sep 21, 2018
Friday Sep 21, 2018
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. [00:01:03]
Today we get to learn from Tracey LeGrand. Tracey specializes in the treatment of pelvic floor issues. She understands the physical and emotional needs of patients dealing with issues such as pelvic pain and incontinence.
Today we'll be specifically focusing on how to treat pelvic floor issues related to pregnancy, sexual pain, and chronic pelvic pain. Here's our chat.
Welcome, Tracey.
Tracey LeGrand: Hi. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: Well, we are so excited to hear from you. Can you just start by giving us a snapshot of who you are and what you like to do?
Tracey LeGrand: Absolutely. I wear a lot of hats. I'll start with my career. I am a physical therapist. I've been practicing as a physical therapist for close to 20 years now. I have a specialty in treating pelvic floor issues.
I'm actually a board-certified clinical specialist in women's health physical therapy. [00:02:01] The name of my practice is Cornerstone Pelvic Health and Wellness. I spend all of my time treating all sorts of pelvic floor issues. That's what I love to do. I'm very passionate about it and the people that I treat.
But I'm also very passionate about being a mom. So I have two boys at home, ages 10 and 6. They keep me very busy. And I have a wonderful husband. Actually, today is my 21st wedding anniversary. So I've been married for 21 years, and God has blessed us tremendously. We are very involved in our community, in our church.
Laura Dugger: My goodness. Happy anniversary.
Tracey LeGrand: Yes, thank you.
Laura Dugger: How did you get interested in helping those with pelvic floor issues?
Tracey LeGrand: Everyone wants to ask me that question. I have probably answered that question at least two or three times this week already. Because I know that even patients who come to see me, a lot of them, even when they are referred for this type of treatment, they don't even realize that this type of physical therapy exists. [00:03:06]
So actually I didn't really know a whole lot about it either when I was in PT school. Honestly, we didn't get any type of training in this type of therapy within our physical therapy program. So honestly, I was kind of interested in treating shoulders. I thought I was going to graduate specializing in shoulders, but I do feel like I always had an interest in kind of women's health issues, even in PT school before I knew that this was an option.
I would do my research papers on the effects of female hormones and just kind of do things a little bit differently. So when I graduated PT school, basically one of the gurus in this field came to my state and did an introductory class in this area. I took the class and I just immediately became intrigued. The more that I went to training I just realized that this was a huge field.
There's not a lot of therapists who even today specialize in this area of physical therapy. [00:04:08] I said in the beginning that I'm a board-certified clinical specialist. I'm one of only four in the state of Kentucky, and there's only about probably like 350 of us, 375 maybe, in the whole United States. So it's still a growing field, but a very specialized form of physical therapy.
I think the more I got into treating these issues and realized they're very sensitive issues, I treat everything from sexual pain disorders, urinary incontinence, pelvic pain, lots of very sensitive things. So I wanted to kind of combine ministry with my job. I don't look at my job as just something that I do, a paycheck. I really do feel called to minister to people, to serve people, to share love with people.
So I think as I got into this area, my personality and being able to show kindness—I kind of have a quiet personality, but very calming—I was able to use that to really help these women. [00:05:13] Actually I treat men too, but you know, it's embarrassing sometimes to talk about some of the things that I treat. So I feel like it was just a natural progression and doors continue to open. And before I knew it, that's all that I was treating.
Laura Dugger: It's also fascinating coupling that with your degree in counseling as well.
Tracey LeGrand: Absolutely. Honestly, when I was probably practicing physical therapy for about 10 years, maybe not quite 10 years, and as I began treating these issues, it was kind of the joke around the clinic that I would come out of my treatment rooms trying to find the Kleenex box because ultimately all of my patients were always in my treatment room crying because there's just a lot of emotion that goes along with some of these issues that I treat.
So I think I realized, okay, I need something else to help me help the emotional aspect of some of these things. And so, yes, I felt kind of led to go back and to pursue a counseling degree. [00:06:19] It took me about six years to get that degree because I continued to work as a physical therapist full-time. I had my first child in the middle of that. So it took me a while, but I feel like I use that every single day in my practice. I do feel like I am able to listen better and understand.
I think it's also helped me establish relationships with those in my community who are psychologists and counselors and I have a great network of clinicians that I'm able to refer to because I feel like I'm able to recognize when they need to be referred on to a sex therapist or a pain psychologist or any of those other clinicians in the community that can then put all the pieces together.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. This might be backing it up a little bit. But can you give us a brief education on general pelvic health, especially if pelvic floor is a brand new term to someone listening? [00:07:17]
Tracey LeGrand: Well, everybody has a pelvic floor, but if it's working well, you may not ever think about your pelvic floor muscles. But it's actually a very important part of your body. Your pelvic floor, basically, you have muscles that go from your pubic bone to your tailbone. There's actually three layers of muscle that make up the pelvic floor musculature.
Your pelvic floor serves three very important purposes. First of all, it's a supportive structure, basically, so it is supporting very important organs. So it helps to support your bladder, helps to support your uterus if you're a female, it's supporting your rectum, your colon. So it's giving support to all of those pelvic organs.
It is also very important for sexual function. Those muscles are a huge part of sexual pleasure and sexual functioning, so it's important that they continue to do their job during that aspect. Also, they help you maintain what's called continence. [00:08:19] So if your bladder is filling up with urine and you need to get to the bathroom, you want those muscles to be able to keep everything in so that you're not leaking or having an accident. Same thing with your bowel movements.
Again, some of these things are kind of funny to talk about or uncomfortable to talk about. But you know what, if you're sitting in a meeting and you feel like you need to pass gas, you don't want to do that right in a crowd So it's those muscles that help you hold that back.
Then also your pelvic floor is part of your core. People think of your core muscles as just your abdominal muscles. I've got to get my abs strong, that's my core. But really what I teach my patients is that your core is made up of a group of muscles that start at your diaphragm, go all the way down to those pelvic floor muscles, and everything in between. And they work together in a very coordinated way to give you postural stability and support and help you manage changes in intra-abdominal pressure if you're lifting or pushing or just picking up your kids. [00:09:22]
Your pelvic floor muscles are functioning in those situations in a very important way. Very important muscles. But again, if you don't have to think about them, you may not realize that those muscles are important until something goes wrong.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that definitely makes sense. What are a few common issues related to the pelvic floor?
Tracey LeGrand: Well, probably one of the most common things that I would say most people are familiar with would be urinary incontinence. So we've all seen the commercials on TV, Gotta Go, Gotta Go, or all the commercials for the Depends pads or the Poise pads, those types of things.
So basically, urinary incontinence is leaking urine when you don't want to leak urine. So there's a few different categories of incontinence. You have what's called stress incontinence. So that's if you cough or sneeze or laugh really hard and you leak a little bit of urine during those types of activities. [00:10:20]
Or a common thing, you know, a lot of women after having babies they come in like, "Oh, I can't jump on the trampoline anymore and play with my kids because I leak urine. I pee on myself when I do that. So that is stress incontinence.
Urge incontinence is kind of like overactive bladder. So you feel the need to empty your bladder often throughout the day. You feel a lot of urgency, frequency, that type of thing. And then you can have a mixture of the two. That's probably one of the most common things I think that people would recognize. Again, your pelvic floor muscles are the muscles that help to control that.
The other thing that's common but probably not talked about often, but with women after having children as they get further into live menopause, postmenopausal women with the pelvic organ prolapse can be a scary thing if you don't realize that that can happen.
But again, those muscles are part of your support system. So as you have more babies, there can be a hereditary factor as well. [00:11:24] But as your support system weakens and ligaments get stretched during pregnancy and delivery, sometimes your pelvic organs like your bladder, your uterus can drop further down and sometimes can protrude and there can be like a bulge. Now that's a little scary but that can happen. And that's another reason why it's important to retrain your pelvic floor muscles like after pregnancy and delivering and those types of things.
So there's so many different things. There's pelvic pain issues, which can involve a lot of different things. About one in four women have pelvic pain. Definitely the pelvic floor muscles can be a huge component when it comes to pelvic pain.
I treat a lot of GI issues. So people don't think about constipation as involving the pelvic floor, but it has been shown that a lot of people who deal with chronic constipation, that a big component of that is their pelvic floor muscles not functioning properly.
So there's a lot of conditions that can fall under the category of pelvic floor muscle dysfunction or just issues that can involve the pelvic floor. [00:12:32] So we could probably talk about each of these in a whole segment, but I guess that kind of summarizes a few of the main things that I treat anyways.
Laura Dugger: That's very helpful. And maybe we can stay on a few of those for a little while further. Let's just start with pregnancy-related pain. What are the pelvic implications of pregnancy?
Tracey LeGrand: Definitely any woman who has been pregnant and gone through pregnancy and delivery, you know how drastically your body changes for the baby to grow. Your body has to basically accommodate that growth in the uterus and the baby.
So your pelvic floor muscles, again, part of your support system. Just think about as you're growing, the baby's growing, all of that pressure that the pelvic floor is having to adjust to and hold up against just during the changes of pregnancy. Your abdominal muscles get stretched out as well. [00:13:31]
I often talk to patients about the changes that happen during a vaginal birth and say, you know, there's no other muscle group in your body that's asked to be stretched quite like the pelvic floor muscles during a vaginal delivery. Ultimately it's amazing how much the body does recover after that.
But definitely after pregnancy and delivery there needs to be some retraining of those muscles because they've been stretched, they've been weakened with the whole process. Sometimes the incontinence, pelvic organ prolapse, those types of things can just begin right after going through the process of pregnancy and delivery.
But then also during pregnancy, every pregnant woman has kind of felt her back aches a little bit more as she gets further along into her pregnancy because those muscles are having to kind of compensate and adjust to all the changes in her weight.
You know, women can have pelvic girdle pain. [00:14:31] And sometimes the pain, maybe they can adjust to it or they can kind of deal with it, but then sometimes the pain can become so severe so that they can't walk without sharp pain into their buttock or into their pubic area or their pelvic bone.
So there are a lot of conditions that can develop during pregnancy that can definitely be helped with physical therapy to help with the pain issues during pregnancy. Then I love treating my postpartum women. If I can get them six to eight weeks right after having their baby, really start doing some good training for their pelvic floor and their abdominal muscles, it would be a very, very important thing.
I really think, for every woman to go through that, but unfortunately in our country, you know, that's not the norm. Women after six weeks, you know, they're cleared, "Oh, everything's good. You're good. Go back to doing life. No issues. Good return to intercourse."
And then sometimes, you know, they don't realize that they're kind of vulnerable during that time, and that the changes of their body, they need to kind of work to reestablish good core control, good pelvic floor muscle control, and all of those things. [00:15:40]
Laura Dugger: Let's talk about that woman then that is about to deliver, let's say, and she's going to set up a meeting with her physical therapist, or if they're in Lexington, Kentucky, they could reach out to you. But what would that treatment look like for those six to eight weeks?
Tracey LeGrand: As a pelvic floor physical therapist, I check the pelvic floor muscles. So once they've been cleared by their physician, I do a pelvic exam for me to be able to assess their pelvic floor muscles, their strength, their muscle tone, if they're recruiting those muscles correctly. I need to be able to assess the muscles.
So I will do a pelvic exam and I will check their muscle function, have them contract their muscles, check their muscle tone, screen for signs of prolapse as well. Then I will just start my process of teaching them how to properly recruit the pelvic floor muscles and how to coordinate those muscles appropriately. [00:16:43]
I do something called biofeedback treatment, if necessary, where I can actually hook their muscles up to a computer and as I am retraining them to recruit their muscles the right way. They're actually able to see that muscle contraction on the screen. So it helps them.
How I describe that is it's helping them connect brain to body because those muscles are hidden, right? I can watch someone and watch their quad muscle contract or their bicep muscle contract. But the pelvic floor is a little bit different. Those muscles are hidden. There's a lot of misinformation about it. How to do a Kegel, or how to do a pelvic floor exercise.
So I really spend a lot of time just educating my patients on what a proper contraction looks like, how to breathe, and how to coordinate their muscle contraction with the appropriate breath. So it helps, I think, when they've got that visual feedback on the monitor as we're kind of going through those types of treatments. [00:17:47]
So then I just progress them depending on what I find, progress them through appropriate exercises. And then sometimes, you know, right after pregnancy, depending on what happened during the vaginal birth, sometimes women have episiotomies where they tear and they've had stitching, and so sometimes that's also a time when women will discover that intercourse has become painful.
When they're given the clear to return to sexual intercourse, yes, everything's healed, everything looks fine, but then they attend intercourse for the first time and they are definitely surprised that there is pain associated with that. And sometimes that can just be where scar tissue has formed if they had to be stitched up and those muscles and tissues just aren't as elastic. So there needs to be some work to help that.
And that can be very easily treated with physical therapy and some of the treatments that I do. Unfortunately, I've had women come in a year or two postpartum that are still having pain with intercourse and very easily could have been helped very sooner in the process. [00:18:52]
Laura Dugger: But that's so good to know because it sounds like... I think what you're saying is it's never too late, but you would definitely recommend starting early if somebody is having that symptom.
Tracey LeGrand: And I think just understanding that there is something. Because women recognize that their bodies have changed and you know, there's a lot of things that are going on in that postpartum period. So they're trying to reestablish their balance too.
Sometimes I think it's just a lack of knowledge of realizing that, okay, I am having pain. I know I don't want to have pain, but okay, I guess it will get better with time. And then it just never does. And then maybe they're embarrassed to ask their physician about it. So it can develop into this cycle of pain that definitely the sooner that it's treated, the better.
Laura Dugger: I'm curious, is this just recommended for clients who have had a vaginal delivery, or do women who have had a cesarean section also need this retraining? [00:19:55]
Tracey LeGrand: Oh absolutely. So when you're talking about women who have had a c-section now you have your abdominal muscles have been cut in two and then also they have scar tissue that forms. I mean naturally anytime you have a surgical procedure you're going to have scar tissue. That's just a normal part of healing.
But it can be helpful to teach them how to do scar mobilization to help that heal better, to allow the tissues and the muscles to have the appropriate liability.
And even though they didn't have a vaginal birth still, research has shown that women even after C-section can also have pain with intercourse, and still they've carried those babies for nine months so they also need to retrain their core muscles appropriately.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Let's move on to a little bit broader topic. Who struggles with chronic pelvic pain?
Tracey LeGrand: One in four women will experience chronic pelvic pain. Chronic pelvic pain usually equals complex pain, right, and often involves a lot of different systems. So the urinary system can be involved, the GI system, the muscular system. There can be a lot of systems involved.
There's a lot of different diagnoses that kind of fit under the title of chronic pelvic pain. So that could be women who have struggled with endometriosis, there is a condition called painful bladder syndrome or interstitial cystitis. And sometimes it becomes chronic. Maybe they started experiencing pelvic girdle pain during pregnancy. [00:22:55] And then that pain just continued on after delivery. It didn't necessarily go away and it just then kind of turned into a chronic condition.
Women and men who have chronic constipation issues can develop chronic pelvic floor pain and abdominal pain and those types of things. So it can involve a lot of different things. Some of the sexual pain disorders would also fall into chronic pelvic pain. They're kind of some big names, vestibulodynia, vaginismus. There's a lot of different things.
Laura Dugger: If somebody is listening to this, if they've never heard anybody speak on this topic before, and they're relating to what you're saying, what are some symptoms that they might identify with and know that they need to schedule an appointment?
Tracey LeGrand: That can involve a lot of different things. I would definitely say, let's kind of take constipation, for instance. [00:23:55] That's a common problem, actually, and a lot of women deal with constipation. And yes, it's true, probably need to get more fiber or water intake, that type of thing.
But if it becomes a problem where they are having abdominal pain, when they try to have a bowel movement, they have to push and they have to strain, which sometimes can lead to hemorrhoids and just pain in general, those are signs that, okay, if they're having to push and strain and they can tell that those muscles, maybe they don't really recognize that it's a muscular problem, but they can just tell that things are just not coming out very well, that would definitely be assigned to check in with their family physician and then maybe go through the appropriate referrals.
Maybe they need to go to a GI doctor and just have everything checked out and then educate themselves. And definitely physical therapy can help with a lot of those types of things.
Then when it comes to just pelvic pain in general, pain with intercourse, what has been found is that women with chronic pelvic pain, 90% of them will have painful intercourse. [00:25:02] So sometimes that can just be the first thing that, oh, okay, this is not comfortable, my muscles feel really tight, the penetration is very painful, or they're just feeling a lot of pressure or maybe deep pain in their pelvic area during thrusting and those types of things. So there can be those types of changes.
Pain with intercourse, most of the time, can indicate some issues with the pelvic floor muscles. So those would definitely be signs that I would say, yeah, don't wait. Seek out some more assessment from either their OB or their family physician.
Laura Dugger: That's great. I'm sure somebody is feeling very encouraged or motivated to schedule an appointment, and it sounds like with treatment, there's hope. That you're saying these symptoms are treatable and it can get better. Is that right?
Tracey LeGrand: Yes. [00:26:02] And that is the one thing that keeps me going with my practice actually is just I love being able to offer hope to these people who a lot of times come into my practice. Unfortunately, research has shown that women who deal with some of these chronic pain conditions, it can take up to six to eight years from going from physician to physician to get a proper diagnosis or to get finally sent to the right person to kind of get them the help that they need. And that's unfortunate.
Really I think there's just more education that needs to be done. There are a lot of providers who specialize in treating pelvic pain issues. Plus these issues are sensitive and sometimes they go underreported because the patient doesn't feel comfortable bringing up pain with intercourse or leaking or whatever or constipation. [00:27:04]
So sometimes it's just a matter of they don't have the courage sometimes to bring up these issues or they feel rushed. You know, unfortunately, in our medical system today, physicians are pushed to see a lot of patients. So these types of issues take a lot of time to be able to talk through. So sometimes maybe it's just that they aren't being given the time to discuss these issues. But there's hope.
Even when patients show up at my office, if that's the first thing I can offer them is I can help you with this... because most of these issues there's muscular changes. If it's the physical aspect that as a physical therapist I can definitely help them but we're mind-body-spirit, right?
So when you develop these chronic pain issues, it's very natural thing, especially if you feel hopeless or you don't understand it, then the fear sets in, then the anxiety sets in. [00:28:03] If you've been to multiple practitioners, providers, and you didn't feel like you got the information or the help that you needed, then you start to think, okay, well something must be wrong with me. Or sometimes physicians will leave patients to think, oh, this is all in your head or you know they're just given wrong information and so then those emotional issues start combining with the physical issue and then I get the feeling of hopelessness.
So if I can, through education, a lot of times my first session with a patient can be over an hour because I think one of the most important things that I do for my patients is just to listen and allow them to share their story and get my Kleenex box out and let them cry and let them express. And they'll say, I'm so sorry, I don't mean to cry. I'm like, it's okay.
They need to be able to have the space to express what they're feeling and how that's impacted their lives. [00:29:03] But when they finally hear someone say, Yes, I've treated this. Yes, this can be helped. That's why I do what I do.
Laura Dugger: Is there anything we can be doing proactively to combat the likelihood of developing pelvic floor symptoms?
Tracey LeGrand: First of all, I would just say education. I think that's coming around. I feel like in the last probably five or six years, there's been more the media. Like a lot of your major magazines have covered articles about pelvic floor dysfunction, pelvic floor problems and are shedding some light on even pelvic floor physical therapy. I think that it's coming around.
But I think first of all just needs to start with women educating themselves and being more aware of what their pelvic floor is and why their pelvic floor is important. And then asking the right questions.
And then if their physician doesn't recommend physical therapy after having a baby, they request it or they ask if they can be referred. [00:30:09] It kind of depends on what state you live in. Kentucky is a what's called a direct access state. So technically, I don't need a referral to treat patients unless their insurance provider requires it. Medicare requires a physician's referral. But still, I think it's good to have the physician in the loop.
I think women just being more proactive in asking and understanding. You know, I hesitate. There are some good groups out there where you can get information, but then there are some that are not so good. So I hesitate to say, oh yes, you need to do your Kegel exercises, which can be good, but then sometimes it just depends on what's going on.
Like women who have chronic pelvic pain, a lot of times their issue is that they are holding too much tension in their pelvic floor muscles. So a lot of times I have to work with them on just learning how to let their pelvic floor muscles relax and then we can restore proper coordination and work towards strengthening. [00:31:13] So it's not always as easy as do your Kegel exercises because sometimes that can make the condition worse.
I guess the best thing that I would say is just if you're listening today, if this has piqued your interest, I can give some good referrals to some articles or blogs if you want to attach it to this segment that people can maybe refer to.
But then if you have more questions, ask. There's lots of great pelvic floor, even though we're kind of still a small group, there's lots of amazing pelvic floor physical therapists all over the world and we have a great referral source. I have found people therapists in Canada. I have found people therapists in different states. So ask and I can definitely get someone pointed in the right direction.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for offering that. That would be wonderful. We will definitely link to some of those articles in the show notes. For those listeners who are lucky enough to be local to Kentucky, can you tell us where they can contact you for further information or set up an appointment? [00:32:18]
Tracey LeGrand: I am in Lexington, Kentucky. Again, my practice name is Cornerstone Pelvic Health and Wellness. I have a website, cornerstonepelvichealth.com. I have a Facebook page, Cornerstone Pelvic Health and Wellness. So you could start there and get my contact information. I'm very accessible by email. Small practice, so often I will have people who find my information online and they have questions and they'll email me. Most of the time I get back in touch with people in a very timely manner.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Well, one final thing before we go today. We got our name, The Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" can be defined as practical knowledge or insight. And we would love to hear your unique applicable tips. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Tracey LeGrand: I'm gonna have to say the Squatty Potty. [00:33:17] So some people may not have heard about this, but there are all sorts of funny videos about the Squatty Potty. You can YouTube it. So Google Squatty Potty and look at the funny YouTube videos.
But basically what a Squatty Potty is, is basically like a stool that you can put underneath around your toilet, and then you pull it out when you are ready to have a bowel movement, all these wonderful things we're talking about today, and you put your feet up on it, which everybody thinks that's so funny, but if you think back before the invention of toilets, everybody used to squat to eliminate. And anatomically that is the best position because it opens up your pelvic floor muscles and anatomically allows things just to come out easier. So I recommend the Squatty Potty to all of my patients.
Actually, I sing on my praise team at my church, and I have gotten everybody on my praise team using a Squatty Potty. [00:34:20] It's funny in the beginning, but it makes such a big difference. I have one in my office bathroom for patients. I keep a couple at my house.
My poor children are probably going to grow up traumatized because of what their mother does. But they know all about the squatty potty because it just allows your muscles to do what they're supposed to do when you are needing to have a bowel movement. So as funny as that may seem, I think that that is a great thing for everybody to go and look up and consider getting a squatty potty.
Laura Dugger: That's amazing. I love it. Thank you for sharing. Tracey, I just want to say again, thank you for your time. You're so approachable and easy to chat with. And I know that listeners have very much benefited from all that you shared today. So thank you for joining us.
Tracey LeGrand: Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate you inviting me. [00:35:21]
Laura Dugger: Hey, friends, we've purchased a resource that we think you might find helpful after listening to today's content. It's actually authored by our previous guests, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner, and it's titled, Restoring the Pleasure. We would love to give away a copy to a listener today, so just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our "Giveaways" tab for more information.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:36:21] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:37:22] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:38:24]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Thursday Sep 20, 2018
Thursday Sep 20, 2018
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.
7. Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage With Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
**Transcription Below**
Philippians 2:1-11 “If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website
Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:
Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women
The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex
The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment
Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
[00:00:09] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:26] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois and with over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure to put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship.
If you're interested in sponsoring The Savvy Sauce, we would love to hear from you. Make sure you reach out to us. You can email us at info@thesavvysauce.com.
This episode is intended for currently married, healthy couples. [00:01:21] If you've had trauma in the past and have not pursued healing, our hope is that you would reach out for help today. It is unlikely that you can do this healing alone.
We recommend you connect with a Christian counselor in your area, ideally with a specialization in Christian sex therapy. Healing is possible.
I also want you to be forewarned that this topic is not suitable for little ears.
I'm so excited for our guest today. We get to host Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner. The Penners are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people to embrace sex as good and of God. Today we discuss differing desires in marriage and practical tips to enhance your sexual intimacy.
Welcome, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We're delighted to be here. We're just excited to see where this can go.
Joyce Penner: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just dive right in. For anyone who doesn't know you yet, could you give us some background into who both of you are and what you do? [00:02:22]
Joyce Penner: Well, we were both raised as Mennonites, so the topic that we're about to talk about was not talked about in our homes. We both were in our separate professions when Cliff was asked to teach a class to new moms about teaching your kids about sex.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And those professions were that I was a clinical psychologist, I had gotten my doctorate in that area, and Joyce was a nursing professor at California State University.
So what happened was that I was asked to teach this class of women about talking to your kids about sex, and then afterwards a couple of the women asked if I would come and teach a group of 60 women about sexual adjustment marriage, and I said: "Well, I really don't know much about that." And they said, "No, would like you to come teach us." So since Joyce was a nursing professor, I prevailed upon her and we got...
Joyce Penner: And because you were going to be teaching 60 women-
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, that's true. [00:03:22]
Joyce Penner: He said, "I'm not going to go teach 60 women about sex, which we know nothing about from a professional perspective."
Dr. Clifford Penner: So we studied like crazy and did a 10-week course on sexual adjustment in marriage. At the last three weeks, the women asked if they could bring their husbands. Then what happened was that we got so much positive response to it and started getting asked to teach at other places.
So then we finally went and got trained as sexual therapists, and this was a process of the next year or two, because people started asking to come to us for sexual therapy, and we said we're not sexual therapists.
Joyce Penner: But every step of the way we were led into this. It wasn't something we ever decided we were going to do. But it's one of those experiences, we believe, when doors are open and you allow God to lead you, He uses you in mighty ways. And that's certainly been true for us. [00:04:21] Now, at this stage of our lives, we're mainly training other professionals, other sexual therapists.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So we often teach seminars to psychologists, marriage and family counselors, pastors, who will then use the material that we bring to help with the people that they're dealing with who have sexual issues. That's all over the world that we get to do that.
Joyce Penner: Lots of fun.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. Clearly, you two are great at it, so we really appreciate your contribution. Let's just lay the spiritual foundation for this topic first. Do you have any specific scripture that's very precious to you in this area?
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, probably the two main passages that are at the core of what the New Testament teaches about sexuality are 1 Corinthians 7, the first 11 verses, where it says, "Is it a good thing to have sexual relations?" [00:05:22] And that the church at Corinth is asking this, and then Paul answers, "Of course it's a good thing, but between a husband and wife." And then he goes on and instructs, "Husbands, be this way with your wives, wives, be this way with your husbands." And then it's the same passage in Ephesians 5.
Joyce Penner: That whole passage that starts with "submit to one another", but then goes on and talks about the wife's role and much more specifically the husband's role.
The husband is to love his wife like Christ loves the church. And in doing that, he's really doing himself a favor because they're already one in Christ.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We have to ask the question, well, how would he be doing himself a favor if he loves his wife that way?
Joyce Penner: Like Christ loved the church.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Like Christ loved the church. The answer is that when a woman feels cherished and adored and admired, like Paul talks about in Ephesians 5, that's what turns her on. [00:06:23] And when she's turned on, then it makes him happy. That's why he's really doing himself a favor when he loves her that way.
Joyce Penner: And then we also ask, well, how did Christ love the church? And we go to Philippians 2, the passage that says that Christ gave up His rights. And men will often say, "But don't we have the right to sex?" Yes. But when that right is pursued rather than released, it puts pressure on the woman. And when the woman feels pressure, she's not likely to feel good about herself and not likely to want sex, and then he feels badly about himself when she doesn't.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So, to make it very simple, 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, and Philippians 2:1-11, which says, "Let this mind be in you, which is also in Christ Jesus."
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. Moving on to the physical aspects, how are sleep and diet, and exercise related to an enjoyable sex life? [00:07:28]
Joyce Penner: We talk about this in quite a bit of detail in our book, Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and talk about from the woman's perspective. But it's also true for men.
For women, we teach them how to listen to their bodies. And when they listen to their bodies they will be able to get with their own sexuality and share it with their husband. But because sex is not only a spiritual non-relational experience, it is a physical event, and so when we're well-rested, when we're healthy, when our bodies are nurtured in the right way and we exercise, it's going to enhance our sex life.
Laura Dugger: That's great. And for anyone who's listening today, do you have maybe one first practical step they can take to move in the right direction?
Dr. Clifford Penner: We would say, first of all, you have to get enough sleep. [00:08:25] People who aren't getting enough sleep are not going to have the energy to be sexual with each other.
Joyce Penner: And in terms of one suggestion, nutritionally, we would say change one eating pattern. And the one we would recommend is to decrease or eliminate empty carbohydrates. In other words, sugars, foods that don't have much nutrition and are only filling us with calories.
Laura Dugger: For somebody who's thinking in their head, kind of pushing back "sure, I want to get more sleep, how can I actually do that?" what else would you say to convince them of the importance of that step?
Joyce Penner: Well, one thing I learned early on when I went back to work when our oldest daughter was six weeks old, is I learned to take power naps. That was critical to my functioning as a mom, a professional, and a wife.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So, Joyce thinks of that not as an indulgence, but actually- [00:09:29]
Joyce Penner: As a gift.
Dr. Clifford Penner: ...as a gift to the rest of us. And I would have to agree with that.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so freeing to hear you say that. That's great because a lot of people might be struggling with guilt as well. And I feel like you just addressed that.
Joyce Penner: And I just set the timer for 30 or 25 minutes and often wake up before that. But sometimes even 20 minutes is plenty just to take that edge off, and yet it's so natural. Especially with moms with young children, when they finally get their kids down for a nap, they think they've got to get all the tasks done in the house.
But I find if I free myself to go take that nap, even now when I don't have kids around, I'm so much more effective and get much more done more quickly if I take that 20 minutes. I make up that 20 minutes really quickly by the difference in the energy I have.
Laura Dugger: That makes a lot of sense. [00:10:26] So you've talked about the wife's part. Let's use that same example. Do you have any practical tips or suggestions for the husband to help maybe their wife get more sleep?
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, one of the things that we always encourage the husband is that since she's often been, when they're kids, often been home all day with the kids, anything that he can specifically do to take over some part of that task once he gets home and he might say, well, I've been working all day too. But it's a whole different kind of stress that a woman has to deal with at home.
So we would always encourage him for example to let her take a bubble bath while he reads the kids their nighttime story or whatever.
Joyce Penner: But it could be in today's world probably both of them may be working. Or it may be that he's the stay-at-home dad and she's out working. Each couple has to kind of negotiate for themselves what's going to work in their situation. [00:11:26]
For some women, maybe the nap isn't it? Maybe it's something else that gets her energized. But figuring that out and listening to yourself and negotiating it rather than just assuming you have to be tired and exhausted because you have kids and are working.
Laura Dugger: Just one more follow-up question while we're still on this story. Let's flip it to see what a wife and husband can do to make sure that the husband now gets the sleep because I loved your practical examples.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, I don't know that the wife can see to it that the husband gets more sleep. For most men, it is going to be a reduction of their electronic use or video games or television or sports events or whatever. Those decisions can't get made by the wife, but need to get made by the husband himself. [00:12:21] And that is usually what is going to make it more possible for the man to get more sleep.
Joyce Penner: And basically, probably that's more true for actually both, that it is each of our responsibility to work that out and the other spouse affirming and supporting that decision.
Laura Dugger: I love that. The spouses know that they can be the encourager, or they're the ones that need more sleep, they can take their own ownership.
Joyce Penner: Right.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Exactly.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, your formula for intimacy came from observation, and then later it was affirmed by brain and sex research. So could you elaborate on that formula and all the benefits?
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, the formula is divided into four categories, what we do in a 15-minute-a-day period, and then once a week, once a quarter, and once a year. Mainly, we would want to talk about the 15 minutes a day. [00:13:22] So let's explain that first.
Joyce Penner: That's the most important part. The others are lovely if couples can do it, but the 15 minutes a day is what will make the most difference. And it's very prescriptive. What we mean by that is it isn't just something you sort of do, it really makes... the research in terms of the benefit is that it has to happen in the order prescribed and at least the minimum amount of time prescribed.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And we think of it as literally 15 minutes a day. And part of the reason we do that is that most men fear getting into a conversation with a woman because it may never end. So we think if couples can know that it's just going to be exactly 15 minutes, maybe they even set a timer, then the man will be much more willing to do that.
Joyce Penner: And if couples tend to drift into arguments when they talk, it's another reason to limit the time. [00:14:27] According to the brain research, they don't need more time to make this effective. But it starts with connecting emotionally. And in that emotional connection, looking into each other's eyes. Because eye-to-eye contact triggers oxytocin. The brain secretes oxytocin as a result of eye-to-eye contact.
It's the same reason it's important for parents to look into their children's and infants' eyes to build that oxytocin, which is the trust hormone.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So in that few minutes of conversation, this is not about figuring out who's going to pick up the groceries or go to the dry cleaners. This is some relational communication, either an affirmation about the other person, sharing a thought that you've had, a reaction. It's not the time to schedule, nor is it the time to settle differences. This is just a connecting time for maybe three to five minutes. [00:15:23]
Joyce Penner: And just positive thoughts and feelings. It can be an affirmation of the other, as Cliff mentioned, but could also just be if you had some kind of a positive goal that arrived, or you had it in your head, or that you dreamt of something that you wanted to share, or you anticipate a positive time, or experience how God was working in your life that day.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the first thing is this kind of relational, looking in each other's eyes communication. Then the next thing is some kind of a spiritual connection.
Joyce Penner: And that depends on where the person is coming from spiritually. It could be that they're just sharing inspirational reading, that they have a flip calendar with a thought for the day or a Bible verse for the day, or that they join in prayer together. Wherever the couple is in that process.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And some couples will be very uncomfortable being very direct about that, others for that will be more natural, and maybe they can grow into it. [00:16:23]
Joyce Penner: And then finally, this is the third step then, is to connect physically. Stand up and give each other front to front full body hug for 20 seconds.
Dr. Clifford Penner: This is an interesting thing. The research has shown that when a couple hugs for 20 seconds or more, it does also raise the oxytocin level, the bonding hormone that brings two people closer to one another emotionally, relationally and this is not about getting turned on sexually that may happen sometimes but this is-
Joyce Penner: That's an important thing to say. Many times women resist the physical connection because it leads to a passionate kiss. And this is a vital part of the formula for intimacy, the daily part. But women have resisted that because they're afraid, or men have too, they're afraid they're going to get aroused, or that their husband's going to get aroused. [00:17:23] And if they get aroused, they have this idea that arousal has to lead to a sexual experience. And that just is not a reality.
In fact, when we stop hugging and kissing because we think it has to lead to a sexual experience, then we have fewer sexual experiences because we don't keep the pilot light on and we start shutting down on our sexuality. So let yourselves get aroused if it happens, but that has nothing to do with whether or not it leads to sex. It has to do with connecting, enjoying, delighting in your body, getting those little sensations.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Just to say that very simply, arousal does not mean it has to lead to a sexual intercourse experience.
Joyce Penner: Then after the 22nd hug, five to thirty seconds of passionate kissing without leading to sex.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Now let's give a little background there. [00:18:21] Before couples are married, are early in their marriage, there's often a lot of passionate kissing. But as time goes on, maybe when children come or life gets busy or people are going to school or whatever they're doing, the pattern changes.
The stereotype is, and it could be the reverse of this, but the stereotype is the husband comes up and wants to give his wife a kiss and she thinks to herself, "Oh, do I wanna have sex tonight? I'm not sure. I better not leave him on." And so she gives him the cheek rather than her lips. And it's a one-second event, that is a peck, which then in fact doesn't allow for that passion to be there.
So it is our belief and our finding that daily passionate kissing is one of the most important things for a couple to do not because it's gonna lead to sex, just because it triggers the dopamine in the brain which is the excitement hormone. And this will then help, as Joyce said earlier, keep that pilot light on. [00:19:27]
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating and something that people could take and start today.
Dr. Clifford Penner: They can start today. And usually it's best if a couple decides, you know, the best time for us to have our 15 minutes of connecting a day, we call 15 minutes of intimacy, not physical sexual intimacy, but just total emotional intimacy that does include some physical, but not intercourse, it's best if you decide on when that's going to be, whether it's right when the husband gets home, or in the morning before the kids get up, or when the kids are all down, whatever it may be.
Joyce Penner: Or when they both get home from work, or when she gets home, however, their system is. Or often, it can be the thing they do before they go to bed. It's different for everybody. Maybe when they have dinner. And they don't have to be in private. The kids can be around. In fact, it's okay for the kids to see that they have this kind of intimacy and connection with each other. [00:20:24]
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the formula for intimacy starts with that 15 minutes a day. Then we also encourage one date night a week and that could lead to sex or not. And hopefully it would include a half a day or a day every quarter that you devote to your marriage.
Then usually it's best if a couple can enjoy some kind of a marriage retreat or retreat focused on sex, or something that will build their intimacy. So it's 15 minutes a day, one date night a week, one day a quarter, and one weekend a year.
Dr. Clifford Penner: That's great. And just a few follow-up questions with some of those. You had mentioned even in those 15 minutes of intimate connection time, the first few minutes where you're focused with eye contact. If conflict does arise and the spouses, let's say, have different ways they like to engage in conflict, what do you recommend as a healthy approach if it starts escalating in those few minutes? [00:21:25]
Joyce Penner: They stop right away.
Dr. Clifford Penner: For that particular event and say, Let's schedule to talk about this another time away from here, because this is our connecting time, not our dealing with conflict time. So the kids are going to be down by eight o'clock tonight. Why don't we plan that at 8:30 we'll deal with this? But right now we're just talking about our intimacy.
Joyce Penner: And we're just talking about delighting in each other and enjoying ourselves and sharing what's positive in our lives. And if we keep it positive, it's not likely to lead to conflict.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But this time should always be thought of as a positive connecting time. And then scheduled to deal with the conflict away from that event.
Laura Dugger: Which is so great because then what a great thing to look forward to every day. I do wonder, does it look different if you have clients that have a lot of trauma in their past, maybe sexual abuse or sexual trauma related to the physical part of this intimate formula? [00:22:30]
Joyce Penner: This formula really helps with that. The only part that may be an issue and we do deal with if one or the other has not been able to kiss ever in their relationship because kissing was a part of being violated. Then that person should always lead the kissing so they're never kissed.
But if I was the one traumatized, let's say my grandfather always kissed me and it was part of his abusing me—Didn't happen. I'm just saying hypothetically—then it would be important that Cliff not kiss me, but rather I do the kissing. And maybe it only starts with a peck, and then I gradually move to a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And maybe I stay at a very cautious level for quite some time, but practice everything else in the formula until kissing becomes safe.
And this is why it's so important that the 20-second hug and the eye-to-eye contact happens before any attempt at kissing. [00:23:40] Many times husbands or sometimes the wife will want to skip the other two steps and just do the kissing. That doesn't tend to work as effectively.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Thank you for clarifying. You've also taught that sex is only able to be great when it's good for both. Could you just elaborate on that principle?
Joyce Penner: We believe this is biblical, first of all, as we talked about the 1 Corinthians 7 passage that's such a key teaching New Testament passage and the Ephesians 5:1. The Ephesians 5 one starts with, submit yourselves one to another. The 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 talks about mutuality, that I'm to give myself to my husband, my husband's to give himself to me, and that it's supposed to be as good for one as it is for the other. That it is a mutual. It's always an equal kind of thing. [00:24:43] It isn't that one submits and the other dominates.
Dr. Clifford Penner: This is an important thing. There can be some couples or individuals who come with the idea that sex is really for the man and the woman is providing it. We see that as both a very destructive way of thinking and also a very unbiblical way of thinking.
So that is why since it is a relational event it needs to be as good for one as it is for the other if it's going to last for a lifetime. This is one of the main reasons why it is good from early on to practice it always be mutual.
If it's only for the benefit of one or primarily for the benefit of one, over time the couple will be having less and less sex because one of them isn't enjoying it. So years down the road, there will not be nearly as much activity nor as much fun with the activity. [00:25:44] So that's absolutely essential. If you're gonna have a lifetime of sexual enjoyment it has to be mutual.
Laura Dugger: Let's approach it from both genders then. What encouragement do you have for the husband that experiences lower sexual desire than his wife?
Joyce Penner: So if the husband has a lower desire, what we find is that the couple doesn't have sexual contact, whereas when the wife…
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or at least not as often.
Joyce Penner: Not as often. Whereas when the wife has lower desire, the couple may still be having sex regularly. And we aren't sure whether that's because of cultural teaching or whether that's physical, because the husband does need to have a response in order to move forward.
Dr. Clifford Penner: He has to be able to get aroused, whereas a woman can go along with the sexual experience without arousal.
Joyce Penner: And can be more passive. [00:26:43] So it's hard to know why. But our finding is that when the man lacks desire a couple doesn't have sex, and when the woman lacks desire the couple may be having sex regularly.
Mainly what would be important would be that they talk about the difference because sometimes it isn't as extreme as they think it is. Sometimes if the man lacks desire, there's a real reason for it, and that needs to be determined just as it would if the woman lacks desire.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Let's give some possible reasons. It could be that the man is very low in testosterone since testosterone is the hormone that drives sexual desire. So there could be a physical reason.
Joyce Penner: There could also be a relational reason. For some men, if there's been conflict that really pushes them away sexually. For other men, they're using up all their energy at work or creating a business or their entrepreneurial-ness. For other men, it could be that they're substituting intimacy with the wife for pornography or other means of sexual outlets. [00:27:51]
Dr. Clifford Penner: So if a man has lack of desire, it could be because he's meeting his physical need by looking at porn and then stimulating himself. It could be that he has same-sex attraction. So even though you wanted to be married to a woman and may even say that he loves her and wants to stay with her but he is drawn to men rather than to women.
So there's a variety of reasons why a man might have low interest and it would be important to get at that. Now, often a man may not even know it or may not want to admit it. And so that may be a time where they get some professional help or read a book like our book, The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex.
Joyce Penner: But we should talk about it. Sometimes the man lacks desire, but if the woman initiates, they're fine. He's happy to go along with it. but the woman hasn't felt comfortable initiating. So this is why there's not a real clear one answer to desire issues, whether it's the woman that lacks desire or the man that lacks desire. [00:29:00]
The main thing is nagging and pursuing will never work. Pursuing in a negative sense, where it feels like a demand. You know, checking. Do you want it today? Is this a good time? Or...
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's true on both sides.
Joyce Penner: Yeah, both sides. Or complaining. You never want sex. I'm so frustrated. Complaining, bugging, nagging will never increase your sex life.
Dr. Clifford Penner: It drives a person away. We should switch sides now and say and what if the woman has less interest and how do we understand that?
Joyce Penner: This is where men and women are different. Women tend to want to have sex and open up sexually when they feel loved and adored, when they feel good about themselves. Men tend to desire and want sex when they feel attracted to the wife, when they see her, that visual aspect. And when she's turned on, that's what turns them on. [00:29:58] A turned-on woman turns on a man, but a turned-on man is not necessarily a turn-on for a woman.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So let's just be really clear what we're trying to say here. When the man experiences the woman as in touch with her sexuality and desirous of it and can get aroused in the experience and responsive, then that is likely to make the man move toward her and be interested in her.
So the best thing that a woman can do to raise her desire is to really be in touch with her sexuality. And the way the man helps that is by his love and care and affirmation and adoration of her.
Joyce Penner: Not his pursuit.
Laura Dugger: Could you give a few examples of that when you say she needs to be in touch with her sexuality and the husband can help that by adoring her and affirming her? Could you go a little bit further and share what you mean?
Dr. Clifford Penner: First thing I was going to say is keep your feet warm and wear socks. [00:31:00]
Joyce Penner: That may not make sense.
Dr. Clifford Penner: I know. Explain what I mean.
Joyce Penner: Sure. The research has shown that when women's feet are warm, they're more likely to be sexually responsive. So I always tease women, just, you know, tell them you need a foot rub. And many women love that. So it's fun.
That's what the book Enjoy! is all about, The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women. It teaches the woman how to do that. So to say that in a sentence is pretty difficult.
But basically, for the woman, if she's listening to the benefits to her own sexual desire and need, and some women listening will say, I'm not aware of any, as far as I'm concerned, sex could... you know, I never have to have sex again in my life. But there's usually reasons for that, either that she's feeling too much pressure and it's been a demand and it's never been for her, or she's never been responsive. Those are usually the reasons a woman would not want sex or fight it. [00:32:00]
But when she starts to listen to her body and those little tingles and what she needs and feels good about herself, that will make a difference.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We've been married almost 55 years from now and known each other 59 years, and I've been adoring of Joyce from day one.
Joyce Penner: More adoring of me than I felt about myself. I didn't come with a good self-esteem. It was his affirmation of me that I first actually fought because I thought it was just a come on and wasn't true. And I fought him on it. But as it began to soak in, and I began to feel better about myself, it really made a difference.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Now, backing up a little bit, though, in answer to your question about how does a woman listen to her body, the first thing that has to happen is that a woman has to believe that sex is as much for her as it is for the man. She has to believe that she is worthy of being a sexual person and being sexually aroused and responsive. [00:33:03]
Joyce Penner: And that God designed her that way. God didn't design that it was just the man that was sexual and it was just for him. God designed us as women as sexual persons, with all of that intensity built into who we are. And if we haven't experienced it, it's usually a barrier that's there.
Even as all of mankind was designed to seek God and to desire union and oneness with Him, sin has interrupted that in our world so that many don't have the felt need for God. Likewise, each of us is designed for that sexual desire. And yet there may be hurts and things that have happened in our lives that block that desire or physical things that get in the way of feeling that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Now, if there is an issue like difficulty having an orgasm and she doesn't have an orgasm, likely over time she is going to lose interest because for her there is no point in getting aroused if it can't culminate in a release. [00:34:14] Because an orgasm is a reflex response to the arousal that happens and it is... Well, we compare it to a sneeze. It's like that build up and then the Achoo, which is true when we sneeze but in the sexual experience there's the buildup and then there's a release so we often kiddingly say an orgasm is really just a pelvic sneeze.
Joyce Penner: But when you're not getting that release and you end up frustrated, then you're going to avoid the sexual experience. So when a couple comes to us saying she lacks desire, we always have to sort out what the cause is. And if it's because she's never had a sexual response, then we don't work on it as a desire issue, we help her learn how to let go orgasmically.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And it is our belief that we were all created as sexual beings men and women and that we were all designed for arousal and release: stimulation and orgasm. [00:35:19] And that when that isn't happening that really limits the delight of the experience in the fulfillment and over time would cause a lack of desire for it.
Laura Dugger: Okay, so if someone's hearing this for the first time and they've never reached orgasm before, you're telling them that there's hope. Can you explain more of the process for them to reach that?
Joyce Penner: To reach orgasm? Are you talking particularly for women?
Laura Dugger: Yes.
Joyce Penner: Okay. We would change your question from "reach" to "allow". We're glad you asked it that way because most women are trying to reach orgasm, and their trying to reach orgasm actually interferes with it happening.
So what we change the focus from trying to achieve something as a goal to learning to ride the waves and enjoy the process. [00:36:17] Because so many times women who aren't orgasmic aren't because they're uncomfortable with the stimulation, they're uncomfortable with the arousal, they're uncomfortable with some part of the process or block it or interfere with it and don't let it build up in their bodies. They want the result but they're uncomfortable.
Getting comfortable with their bodies and allowing the good feelings and focusing on the good feelings and pursuing the feelings and letting the feelings linger and enjoying. The goal being to have longer times-
Dr. Clifford Penner: Intense times.
Joyce Penner: ...intense times of enjoyment. And then the reflex of the orgasm is going to likely happen.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So a simple way of saying it is focusing on having an orgasm can keep it from happening. Focusing on the pleasure of the experience is most likely to lead to it. Now, we should throw something else in here and this may make some of your listeners uncomfortable. [00:37:16]
But the reality is, let's say a couple gets married at age 25. Most guys, 98%, have started masturbating when they're 12 years old. By the time they get married, they've had anywhere from 500 to 5,000 ejaculations. Their body knows how to do that.
If a woman has not engaged any self-stimulation that led to orgasm, then they're going to be pretty unfamiliar with all that. And so it's a whole learning process for her that is very different than what is true for the great majority of men. And if we just understand that we can argue about whether or not the boys should or shouldn't have masturbated but that's not the issue. The fact is they have.
So it is important to understand that this is a learning process for a woman to learn how to listen to her body. That is a different experience than is true for the majority of men.
Joyce Penner: And as long as the man feels it as a demand to give her an orgasm, or she feels it as a demand to have one, that kind of external pressure interferes with the body's involuntary nervous system that controls these responses. [00:38:32]
So by freeing herself and freeing him and them learning to delight in their bodies and listen to their bodies and enjoy the closeness and the warmth and the touch and the good feelings as they build, that would be the goal. It's very similar to trying to fall asleep versus providing the right conditions for falling asleep. When we are struggling with insomnia and we try to fall asleep.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And we're concentrating on falling asleep. That's a surest time not to.
Laura Dugger: That is so good. Thank you for elaborating on all that.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: And now just to get really practical, you've said before the best thing you can do for your sex life is to put the TV in the garage. [00:40:40]
Dr. Clifford Penner: Let's expand on that immediately. We said that a while back. Now we would say control your electronics. It could be TV. It could be your laptop. It could be your iPad. It could be your cell phone. Whatever it is. The point is don't let yourself be controlled by the distractions in your life which are keeping you away from the intimacy with your wife.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And that's a practical application people can hear and again apply today. So you have written extensively on many of these topics that we've discussed today. Can you share a little bit about the resources that you have available?
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well the very first book we wrote came out in 1981 which is a long time ago but it's been rewritten since then. That's The Gift of Sex. And that is just a basic sexual manual that is something that every couple could use.
Then our most recent two books, one of them is for women, Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women, and the one for the man is The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex. [00:41:46] We encourage couples especially to read that last one, the one for the man out loud together.
Joyce Penner: But all three of those really benefit, and sometimes couples don't hear this when we say it, so we hope you're listening audiences hearing this. Reading a resource like this out loud together is much more effective than reading it alone and then talking about it together or even not talking about it is even less effective.
The reading out loud works so well because we hear each other say the words and we can react to what we're reading in the moment. So we can say, well, I've never thought about it that way before, or I don't quite agree with that. How do you feel about that? So it almost acts like a third party to help grow the sexual relationship and understanding and intimacy with each other. [00:42:42]
Dr. Clifford Penner: And if couples have not grown up being comfortable to talk about sex, in fact, we find many couples never talk about it, reading it out loud together any of these books is going to give them the opportunity to say the words, hear themselves say the words, get comfortable communicating about it.
Joyce Penner: Now, if there are problems that the couple is struggling with-
Dr. Clifford Penner: Just say whether those are relational problems or problems with pain or problems with getting aroused or premature ejaculation or orgasmic problems, whatever they may be, technical sexual problems, then the book to read would be Restoring the Pleasure.
Joyce Penner: And be sure you get our newest version which came out March 2016.
Dr. Clifford Penner: You can always get these from our website which is passionatecommitment.com. Those would be the main resources unless you're an engaged couple and then we have a perfect book for you called Getting Your Sex Life Off To a Great Start. [00:43:43] This we encourage couples to read for the year to six months before they're getting married as they prepare themselves for a married sexual life. The whole book is about dealing with the sexual side of getting married
Joyce Penner: But we find his couples work through that, it deals with so much more than just sex. It really is about becoming one and intimacy and spirituality and being able to communicate. If you get through that book together, it will make a huge difference.
Dr. Clifford Penner: All of this is available on our website called passionatecommitment.com.
Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to that in our show notes to make it easy for everyone to check out and order today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as we conclude this time together, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Clifford Penner: One thing that we would say is that if you made no other change, then that you started kissing passionately on a daily basis, that was not designed to lead to sex, that we would virtually guarantee that it'll change your relationship and it'll change your sexual life. [00:44:58]
Joyce Penner: And do that in the context of that 15 minutes per day.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for just taking the time to share your years of expertise and knowledge with us. You two are doing remarkable things in the field and I'm so thankful for your years of work.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We enjoy doing this and happy to connect with anyone that needs more information.
Laura Dugger: It's giveaway time again and today we're giving away two of the Penners' books. You can go over to our website thesavvysauce.com and click on our "giveaways" tab. There you'll find detailed instructions for how to enter for your chance to win these two books, including Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex, both authored by the Penners. Thanks for participating.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. [00:45:57] And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:46:57]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:47:58]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Wednesday Sep 19, 2018
Wednesday Sep 19, 2018
[00:00:10] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:27] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out at midwestshelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Today we are fortunate to hear from Dr. Michael Sytsma. He is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. He has been married to his wife Karen since 1985 and they have two adult sons. [00:01:27]
He does various workshops and he was one of my professors in graduate school. I have greatly benefited from his teachings and I believe you will too.
During this episode, Dr. Mike answers 10 common questions related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Here's our chat.
Thanks so much for joining us today, Dr. Mike.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Sure. It's an honor to be here
Laura Dugger: This episode, we're going to talk about 10 common sexual intimacy questions. So here we go. What are some common misconceptions about sex?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh wow, I think there are a lot of them. One is that it's about parts and technique. Parts have to be the right size in order for sex to be good. That parts have to be young and youthful in order for sex to be good. That my technique has to be perfect. That I have to learn how to do it just right.
The reality of it is those play a small piece of having a healthy sexual relationship, but our heart matters far more and the soul of sex matters far more than the parts and technique. [00:02:35] One writer has said that he doesn't think couples can have truly a great sexual relationship until they're in their 50s. Because he says it takes us that long before we finally accept who we are.
I can come before my spouse and say, "Yeah, as broken and as unattractive as I am now at 50, I still give all of me to you. And you receive that." And now we're able to step into a truly intimate relationship. It's not just about, is our body fit and are we able to do with it what we think should happen?
Laura Dugger: That's really good. What do you tell couples who are concerned when they have differing levels of desire?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: A couple of things. One is, when we really get down to it, most couples don't have as different of a desire as what they think. Now, desire is different for each spouse. [00:03:34] In cross-cultural studies, 80% of the time the husband's a high drive, 20% of the time the wife is, which means one in five couples, the wife is the higher drive individual in that relationship. So, that's not as abnormal as what often those couples think it is.
But what's fascinating is in none of the surveys, none of the research that we've done do we find couples that have the same desire. So, to say they have a different level of desire just means they're normal.
But when we start to really talk about what desire is, couples often get much closer than what they think they are. Sometimes it's in how you ask the question. So if I ask a question, how often are you hungry for sex? I'll get a real, usually broad divergence.
The husband might say, Well, I get hungry for sex two or three times a week, or maybe even more. And the wife might say, hungry for sex? Wow, not sure I can remember the last time I was hungry for it. [00:04:37] Most common, I'll hear one to two times a month.
I asked one wife, so tell me about that, you know, when you get hungry for sex, what's that like? And she says, well, all of a sudden I'm thinking about it, and it'd be really nice. Well, what do you do with that? She says, I'm always taxi for the kids, or I am switching the laundry, or I'm fixing dinner, and it's just inconvenient. So she says, "I ignore it, and 20 minutes later it goes away." Her husband looked over at her and said, "Next time call me, I'll be home in 10." And I thought that was great.
But she's just acknowledging that physical drive doesn't happen very often. So we'll see real divergence there. But when I ask, what would you be proud of? What would you like? What do you think is healthy for your marriage?
Now, wives will typically say one to two times a week, and husbands will say typically two to three times a week. And I point out there really isn't much difference between two and two. That one to two times for her and two to three times for him, they're really in that same ballpark. [00:05:39]
Usually, the higher drive spouse will look at the lower one and say, "Seriously, you don't want it that often." And I'll point out that's kind of the wrong question to ask. What if they're telling the truth? What if the low-desire spouse is saying, One to two times is what I think would be good? And you're thinking, but we don't have it quite that often.
The real question is, okay, if that's what you want, what's getting in the way? Now the couple is on the same side of the page talking about what's getting in the way of what we both want. We both would like about twice a week. We think that'd be really good. That'd be fun. That'd be a mark of a healthy relationship. That's what I desire. But something's getting in the way.
And usually it's simple things that are not easily solved, but simple things like, I'm too tired. I have way too much going on in my day. And by the time we get to where we can have sex, I have no energy left for it. Okay, good. That's what's in the way. Now we can step back and problem-solve it. [00:06:39]
Or, "You know what, you really treated me poorly last week, and then you want to have sex, and my heart has to be softer to you. I have to feel adored. I have to feel cared for." Okay, now you know what to solve.
What I find is couples generally aren't as far apart as what they think they are. This was the subject of my doctoral dissertation. I found that what we call the attribution, what they think is more caustic than what is. So it's helping couples to really sit down, talk about it, and figure out what's getting in the way of us getting what we really would like to have, because the desire is probably not as far apart as they think it is.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's fascinating. How can a couple utilize and celebrate their gender differences to positively influence their sexual intimacy?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, I think some of it comes in just acknowledging what those are and how each of them would identify, characterize, and talk about the gender piece for them. Because in some of the couples that I work with, he really has a lot more feminine qualities. [00:07:41] His heart is really into the sex.
If she is not enjoying it and nurturing and caring for him, it's kind of weak. And she's uber competent and she's just busting down the walls of the home and of maybe work and she has more of that, what we would call masculine power or masculine strength.
And just helping them to acknowledge, okay, this is how you guys are in your gender and it's what you bring in. How do we accept influence from both? Or if it's more the stereotype where the guy is walking in and swaggering and he just wants to just take his woman and have her just be caught up in it. Okay, how do we accept that, kind of, how the power of your masculinity is expressed? And help her to learn that she has enormous power in her femininity.
The beauty of who she is and her physical nature and the softness of what she is, she has real power there. [00:08:48] And how can she embrace it and use it to guide him in? I look at so many wives and say, you have no idea how much power you have. You can embed yourself in your husband's brain in a heartbeat. Just by reaching over and touching him just right, just by flashing him a little skin, just by being a little bit flirty, he will replay that scene multiple times a day, multiple times a week.
I actually had a couple I was doing therapy with earlier this week, and I said, you know, if you just reach over and you just goose him occasionally and be playful with it, he would think about that several times a day. He said, "I think about that for a year." And tell her you have so much power in your femininity. Embrace it.
So getting them to talk about it and realize both are rich, both are good, both have their own kinds of power and accept influence from each other and just play with it, work with it. [00:09:46]
Laura Dugger: Love hearing the stories too, that really illustrates that. Is it possible for some people to never reach an orgasm?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Research tells us that a very small minority of men never reach orgasm. So that's pretty rare. Most guys enter every sexual encounter, most being at least 99% of guys enter every sexual encounter expecting an orgasm in that encounter.
The reality of it is, for women, it doesn't work that way. Only about 25% of women tell us that orgasms are reliable, that they're going to likely have one most of the time. About a third of women tell us that they have one usually. About a third of women tell us that they have one sometimes. And about 9% of women tell us that they never have.
We've got a fair number of women that will tell us that they never have one. Two-thirds of women say it only happens on occasion, but about 10% don't.
Is it important that they have one? [00:10:46] That's kind of up to them and up to their spouse. We do see that women who have orgasms 50% of the time or more report a much higher level of satisfaction in the marriage and in their sex life. So, we know it adds to it, it adds richness to it. And for that purpose, it may be worth pursuing.
Is it something that every woman is capable of? We're not real sure. We think so. But for some, there may be some neurological issues that don't transmit the pleasure in a way that allows them to have an orgasm. So, there may be some women that can't. Same with the men who can't.
But generally, with some good therapy, with somebody who's trained in what they're doing and a willingness to work at it, individuals can learn to have one.
But to go back to your question, are there some that never do? Yes, there are some. It's a minority, but there are some that never do.
Laura Dugger: That's great. For somebody listening that might relate to that, if they've never tried therapy before, that might be a great step. [00:11:50]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. But we would encourage them to really be a good customer. Make sure that the person you're going to is truly trained in it. You want to ask them, have you been trained in it? How many men or women have you ever worked with who weren't able to have orgasms and what was the outcome of that therapy?
Because if they've never worked with it, but they've been trained in it, you probably want to find somebody else, unless they're the only ones in town. And then you might want to give it a try. But just be a wise, savvy consumer. There's a lot of people that say they've been trained and they know what they're doing that tends to wind up doing some damage. So just be careful.
Laura Dugger: That's great advice. Love that. Okay, another question. Who all struggles with pornography and why is it so dangerous?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Some of that is really tough to know because the research on it is controversial, in part because when you start to ask people, we're not sure if they're really telling us the truth because many people feel like it's not an okay type of a behavior. [00:12:55]
But what we see from the research that's out there is it seems like most men at some point in time will be exposed to it, will find it attractive, and will be drawn to it. We're seeing an increasing number of females that are getting tied up in it.
The more conservative estimates are running 25-30% of porn consumers are female. A lot of the studies are saying that it's much closer to the 50%. We see that especially for younger generations. So, old guys like me, our wives may not be as much drawn to it. For the millennials, we're seeing almost an even split in whether the males or females are looking at it.
For many people, it's almost a rapid-onset addiction because it's such a powerful type of a stimulation. [00:13:53] It can set itself up very quickly as a primary kind of a drive and hooks people pretty quick. For those, the cost can be pretty high because it distracts them from work, it distracts them from a relationship.
The research is controversial right now on what it's doing in rewiring the brain. But a lot of the research seems to suggest that it is having an impact into the brain and how the brain is wired and what's going on neurochemically for the brain.
Some of the biggest impacts we see is that setting up an unrealistic expectation of what relational sex looks like. Pornography is an edited work. So they're going in and they're cutting and they're pasting and they're picking people who can do things that maybe aren't always normal or have parts that aren't always normal and they're presenting it as this is how normal sex looks, these are normal sex practices and this is how bodies normally respond.
Many times we know, as sexologists, well, That's really not true. That's not what normal looks like. [00:14:56] That's kind of fantasy sex. And it was edited to look that way or the direction of it is all set up. But then they bring that expectation into the relationship and they get disappointed.
Many of the both males and females that I work with who struggle with kind of compulsive pornography use talk about how that's easy sex. I don't have to negotiate somebody else. I can look at it. It's really powerful stimulation. It's enjoyable. I can have an orgasm and then move on.
But what they do then is they train themselves to that intensity of stimulation. We see guys having difficulty with erectile dysfunction, guys having difficulty experiencing orgasm, women with the same thing. And what we find is not uncommon that over time they begin to lose interest in partnered sex because this is really fantasy-based as powerful. [00:15:57]
Now, that's going to vary from person to person. I have clients that I work with that are like, "Yeah, I watched it for a little while and I don't understand the interest. It's just fake." And they don't get caught up in it. So everybody who looks at it doesn't get caught up in it. But I encourage couples to be really careful with it because it is a powerful stimulation and can create some real hunger, yearning, and longing for it that gets disruptive.
Because of the power that it has, some sex therapists would recommend it as part of treatment to do it. What I've seen is that it has enough of a caustic effect, enough of a toxic effect, that it's not something that I'd ever recommend. I don't see it helpful ever to bring somebody else into the sexual relationship, ever bring a third party in. Whether that be in fantasy, whether that be in picture, whether that be in video, or whether that be a real person. [00:16:59]
God says to honor the marriage bed and keep it sacred, not to let our sexuality be flawed into the streets, and not to let our well be polluted. So anytime we bring something in or we share it with others, it tends to do damage. And in my experience, pornography often fits into, or always fits into that, that we're bringing somebody else into the marriage bed, and it always does damage.
Laura Dugger: That's such good caution. Thank you. How can we live with sexual integrity and teach our children to do the same?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Those are two really critical but very broad questions. How do I live with sexual integrity? For me, that starts by having a vision of what sexual integrity looks like, and sitting down and really wrestling with what does my personal sexual integrity look like, and then what does sexual integrity look like as a couple, and then begin to be on that path. [00:18:00]
Because we're human, we're not ever going to be perfect with it. But as I get on the path and allow for grace and forgiveness from the past, and grace for my humanity and mess-ups, but continue to strive forward, I can let go of the shame that I might have for the past.
I tell people we need to get to the place that we can say, wow, yeah, that's pretty icky. That's a part of my past. I'm not proud of it but I'm no longer ashamed of it. It no longer controls me. And I can share it with you and not be proud of it, but not be ashamed.
Because when we step before our kids, and we're trying to teach them, if we're bound up in shame, our kids feel that. And our kids take on the shame, and they don't know what the shame is about, so they tie it to our sexuality, and sex becomes a shaming thing.
Where if I can step in and go, "Yeah, I did some really stupid stuff. Now, I'm not ashamed of it any longer. I've forgiven myself. But man, I hope you don't do those stupid things. You might. [00:19:00] And if you do, you know what? There's grace and forgiveness for it. And you'll be fine. But please don't hurt yourself like I did." Now I'm inviting them to a different kind of sexual integrity.
You know, integrity is not being perfect. Integrity is being real. Integrity is being transparent. Integrity is just being authentic with who I am. If I can figure out how to do that, it's much easier to teach my kids how to be people of sexual integrity.
Yeah, is that who you want to be? Really? Okay. So let me know when you get hurt. Because it's going to happen. But I can't stop you from it anyways. So I'm guiding them into real, open, honest, transparent kind of relationships. To me, that's what sexual integrity looks like, where we're presenting vision and I'm being real in how well I'm doing and moving toward it.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. What are some subtle messages or cultural topics that people should be aware of that may be a distortion of God's view on sexuality? [00:20:00]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think the biggest one is sex is just about physical pleasure. That sex is not just about physical pleasure, but it's also inconsequential, that I can do whatever I want to whenever I want to, that I can find somebody who does whatever I want them to whenever, and it won't have a cost.
And the reality of it is, our sexuality is so central, so core to our heart, that acting on that does have an impact to us. Making it just about the physical pleasure tears the heart of it right out. And you can't have something that critical torn out of who we are without leaving an enormous wound.
I think a related piece that comes into it is that culture, and even within the church culture, teaches that sex is a need. That so angers me when I hear people talking about sex as a need. Usually, it's in terms of how frequently a man needs sex. [00:21:00]
I've read many books that say guys need sex every 36 to 72 hours, and I just get really angry at it. Not that men are driven to it, not that men desire it that frequently, not that they're hungry for it. Yes, okay, I don't question that. For many men, that is about the frequency that they get hungry for. But to say that we need it moves it into a whole different realm, a different category.
God created us as men to be holy warriors. And He told us that if we stand arm-in-arm as a squad or as a battalion, the gates of hell itself don't stand a chance. There's nothing that can stand against us. Oh, except your sexuality. That's got control over you. I'm sorry. You just need that. No, you're going to have to act somehow or another. And we totally diminish our masculinity. We make it subject to a drive, to a desire in saying that we need it. [00:22:01]
Then the flip side of that is, if men need sex, what does that make our wives? They become simply the object to fulfill our need. I want my wife to be way more than an object who fulfills my need. I want my wife to desire me. I want my wife to want to connect with me. I want us to move into our sexual intimacy because we desire to, not because we need to.
And the desire might be: I want to please you. The desire might be: you're less grumpy if we do. But I want it to be because we desire to, not because it's a need. And I think it really robs the beauty, the pleasure, the celebratory aspect of it, it robs the richness, it robs the heart out when we talk about it as being a need.
So, I think that those two powerful myths I work with a lot in my office, you know, that it's just about the physical and that it's a need. [00:23:01] When we bring the spirit of it in, the heart of it in, both of those tend to fall apart for me. And so, if it's about those two myths, we've robbed it of something that's really critical and precious.
Laura Dugger: What are some benefits for married couples who do connect frequently in this area?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: There's a number of studies that look at it, and I wouldn't be able to identify all of them, but our immune system is improved. Many will point to that. We see overall better health. One well-done research study showed that a decrease in depression overall.
To me, the biggest advantage is just watching what happens in the couple. When a couple has sex with each other and they connect with each other through that act, the bonding, the chemical bonding that goes on, really ties them together.
We have what John Gottman, a marriage researcher, calls positive sentiment override. [00:24:01] That I get to where you make me feel really good, so I have a lot more grace for you. You know, you did a really stupid thing, but you made me feel really good last night. So we'll kind of ignore the stupid thing.
And we see the couple just do better together. They play better together. They have more grace for each other. And I think it's because of what's going on biochemically in their body, but it's also because they've got time that they just play together. And sex becomes part of the richness of what ties them in together.
Like I said, there's plenty of research on the physical benefits to our systems, to our bodies, but I love what it does in the relationship for a couple. I think that's just worth all of it.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's awesome to hear such a positive view. What is a healthy way to decide how often to be intimate with your spouse?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: One that starts with the end in mind. And if the end in mind is a certain number, you're going to do damage. [00:25:03] If the end in mind is a certain frequency, a certain way of being, I think you do damage.
If the end in mind is, I want to intimately connect with you on a regular basis, okay, now that can work. And now we step back and we get curious with each other. So, how can we go about it? What gets in the way of us intimately connecting? How can we get that out of the way?
So, we've got three preschoolers. Yeah, we can't just get them out of the way. How do we problem-solve connecting with each other, making time sacred that we're husband and wife, that we're not mom and dad?
When a couple gets real about their situation in life, when they are focused on the vision I think they're able to come up with a plan that works pretty well. I do think it works better when couples schedule. There's very little else that we do successfully in life that we're not intentional about, including scheduling. [00:26:02]
Couples will often come in and say, "We just haven't had sex in like three months." "So when did you plan for it?" "Well, we didn't, we're just waiting for it to happen." Clearly, that's not working. So, let's be intentional about it. Let's set aside time that you're going to be husband and wife. Set aside time that you're going to be lovers. Get intentional about it and lean into it.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Today's episode is made possible by our Central Illinois sponsor, Leman Property Management. They offer over 1,600 apartment homes throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. Whether you're looking for the newest property in the hottest area of town or an economical location where you can get the most value for your dollar, they have you covered.
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Laura Dugger: We only have one more question left. We are called The Savvy Sauce for a reason because savvy means practical knowledge or insight. So, as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, we see that communication between a husband and wife is so critical to any part of the relationship. And we're talking about the sexual relationship, so to get to a couple talking about it.
For me, the easiest, most powerful way to do that is just pick a book, really good book on this subject written by experts, and read it out loud to each other and use that as the spark for the conversation. [00:28:07] So read a book out loud together and use it to talk with each other, use it to communicate.
Laura Dugger: I love that. And you've even gone one step further and make it very easy for us to find a list of books because you have that on your website.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, because there's a lot of books out there that are filled with quite a bit of mythology that are not founded in what we know about what works in healthy sexuality. It's not a comprehensive list on our website because it's not there doesn't mean it's not a good book. But we've picked several books that I have found really work well in helping couples to talk about their sex life and to enrich it and to grow it if they spend time reading it and talking about it with each other.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. That's something we can all do today. We're going to list your website in the show notes.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: And if you could just say it one time for us here.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. Intimatemarriage.org. The exercises are under the section called Try This at Home. It's pretty easy to find them. [00:29:06]
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, your time has been so valuable to us. You have so much insight and knowledge, and I love the biblical principles that you founded all of this on. So thank you for your work, and thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Dr. Mike and I have a mutual friend, Dr. Douglas Rosenau, and today we want you to participate in a giveaway so that you get a chance to win Dr. Douglas Rosenau's book, A Celebration of Sex. Just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and look at our "Giveaway" tab for your chance to enter.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:30:06] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? [00:31:06] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:32:09] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.