The Savvy Sauce

60 Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships with Pastor, Scott Wildey

60. Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships with Pastor, Scott Wildey

 

**Transcription Below**

 

1 Thessalonians 5:11 (NIV) “Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.” 

 

Scott Wildey, M.Div., is a husband to Linsey (17 yrs), and father to Hunter (11) and Piper (9). He is also an Associate Pastor at Flood Church in San Diego (16 yrs), overseeing the Groups and Marrieds ministries, and feels most alive encouraging others to be all God has designed them to be. Scott is certified in the The Myers–Briggs Type Indicator, trained in The Clifton StrengthsFinder, and dabbles in the Enneagram (as a 9). He also enjoys reading theology, writing, Premier League football, trivia, 80s nostalgia, board games, Harry Potter movies, classic sneakers, The Revisionist History and Savvy Sauce podcasts, the Bible Project, Coltrane & Davis jazz, lounging in his Walmart pool, coupons, and has never met a sauce he didn’t like (try the Zhoug!). Scott knows he has lots of gray hair and often fibs that it costs a lot of money to have it look that way (since he is told every other day how gray his hair is becoming).

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Flood Church Website

Posters of Your Type

The Myers-Briggs Company (a more affordable option is to find a local certified trainer)

Take the MBTI 

San Diego Chapter (or find your local APT chapter)

16 Types Website 

Center for Applications of Psychological Type 

Just My Type Book by by Michael J. Rosen and Daniel Carlson

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

Scott Wildey is my guest today. He is a pastor in San Diego, and he has years of experience helping individuals and couples learn more about their personalities through the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory. With his storytelling and humor, he's going to unpack personality differences you may relate to in your family, marriage, and workplace. 

 

Ultimately, he will share ways we can celebrate one another's differences for a greater outcome. Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Scott. [00:01:21] 

 

Scott Wildey: Thank you for having me. Looking forward to speaking with you today. 

 

Laura Dugger: Can you just start us off by sharing a snapshot of your life? 

 

Scott Wildey: I currently work in San Diego, California. I know that a lot of people are probably pitting me right now, but please do not pity that. I work for a church called Flood Church. We've existed for about 18 years. I've been working here, in full-time ministry, for over 15 years now. Before that, I was a graphic designer. 

 

I'm married to an amazing woman for nearly 17 years. Her name is Linsey, and she is a spiritual director. She meets with people and supports them and helps them to discern God's movement in their life. It's really fun to be married to her. 

 

We have two kids, an 11-year-old son who loves soccer and school and friends. Then we have an almost 10-year-old daughter. My son is Hunter, and my daughter is Piper. She's great as well. I just love being a dad and a husband and a pastor. [00:02:24] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, you definitely have a darling family. Back when we lived in San Diego, my husband Mark and I served in one of your ministries that was called Two Become One. For anyone listening who isn't local to the San Diego area, it was a premarital counseling resource for couples. 

 

Scott, you were the guru to speak on the Myers-Briggs Personality Profile. I just remember it was so beneficial to the couples to learn more about themselves and about one another. Today, we're just going to focus on that personality profile. Can you first just give us an overview of what the Myers-Briggs Personality Test is, and then share why you think it's beneficial for couples to know their type? 

 

Scott Wildey: Sure. The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator has been around for quite a long time. I first discovered it in 2001. I went to a leadership conference through our church, and one of the presenters had us do that assessment just so we can learn more about ourselves and the people that we're working with. [00:03:25] I was so enamored by it and wanted to learn about it that I became a certified instructor in 2003 and have been really using it ever since. 

 

Essentially, it's based on a personality type theory of Carl Jung. What he did is he observed that normal, healthy people have innate differences, innate differences in how they think and view the world. He published a book on personality type. 

 

About that same time, there was a mother-daughter team in the United States that were having some similar thoughts about personality. They got a hold of Jung's book, and they basically created an assessment of his theory and their own observations. What's neat about that is this was all happening about the time of World War II. 

 

One of their motivations was that people could develop a better fit for what they were doing. They saw a lot of wasted potential during that time. Then they also wanted to have people understand themselves and other people so they could find a creative use of differences. Really motivation of peace in a time of war is a pretty amazing origin story. [00:04:44] 

 

Over the next 30 years, they developed this instrument. In 1975, it was the first time it was made available. It's now in, I think, about 110 countries or so in 30 different languages. It's research and science-based, which is great, and that's important. 

 

The other thing, what I love about it, is they wanted to put a psychological assessment into the hands of everyday people. Because at that time, only affluent people could afford to go to a psychologist and do an assessment like that. That's kind of the history behind it, and millions of people use it every day. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. I just learned quite a bit right there in the start. If somebody does want to go find this test and take it so that they can identify their profile, where would you direct them? 

 

Scott Wildey: One thing about this particular instrument is, especially since I was certified, they really believe in the science behind it. Unfortunately, that means that the tried-and-true instruments, one has to pay for. The place that I'd recommend, and I'll give you this link, is themyersbriggs.com. It's an organization that has the rights to the tried-and-true research instrument. [00:06:00] 

 

That's the place that we send couples that go through our Two Become One course that you mentioned. That's probably where I would send people. However, if someone wants to Google to take it, they can, but it wouldn't be as accurate. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's helpful. We will definitely link to that in the show notes so they can go take the paid version if they're interested. I think it would be great for our listeners to get a snapshot about this instrument. Do you mind just going through all of the letters? 

 

Scott Wildey: Definitely. One thing that's important to know is that this is a great model, and it's a great tool. One of my favorite quotes I've learned along the way is by a statistician named George Box. He said that all models are wrong, but some are useful. This is a self-validating instrument. Even if your listeners want to see if they can self-evaluate themselves, that's usually the best way that we can begin to know our personality. [00:06:59]  

 

The other thing I think it's important to know before I introduce some of the letters is just to remind us that every individual is unique. Even though we do have some shared human attitudes and brain functions, we're all unique. Even though someone would have four letters and there are 16 possible types, we're all unique. 

 

None of the letters are value-based. What that means is that each letter is good. It would be incorrect for me to say, for example, Laura, that I'm more extroverted than you. The instrument doesn't measure a value. It actually is a category instrument, or the best way to put it is it's a sorting instrument. It's merely saying that I have a preference for extroversion. 

 

Lastly, I would say that all of us have each of these letters. It's more of what is my dominant preference. Even though I have a dominant preference for extroversion personally, I also need times of introversion, and that's true for all of us. [00:07:59] 

 

The first actually dichotomy is what they're called… is extroversion and introversion. This has to do with where we draw our energy from. People that prefer extroversion they're energized by the outer world, people, places, and things. They tend to live it and then understand it. If you can think of a metaphor of a bank, people that prefer extroversion, they're energy collectors. 

 

So if someone that prefers extroversion, maybe they haven't been around people for a long time, their bank might be empty. So every interaction they have with people or the outside world, it's like an energy deposit into their bank. 

 

People that prefer extroversion also tend to be initiators, and they like to process via talking. So for their brain to process, generally their mouth is moving. It's kind of funny, but I've seen that to be true in myself. Even though they do receive energy by the outside world, again, they need alone time, they need introverted time, but typically they need less time to recoup than someone that prefers extroversion. [00:09:12] 

 

Then lastly, about extroverts, they're about 50% of the population. Being a pastor, I like to think of, well, how might someone that prefers extroversion prefer spiritual practices? I've discovered that I enjoy spiritual practices in community or with other people. Even if it's a time of silence, I enjoy being with other people, and it really helps my spiritual walk. So I've discovered a lot of that is because I prefer extroversion. 

 

Now the other side of that dichotomy is introversion. Just like you'd expect, these are opposites. So a person that prefers introversion is energized by the inner world of ideas, thoughts, and concepts. Typically they have to understand it and then live it. They like to think it through before they speak or maybe present. 

 

Going back to that metaphor of the bank, they tend to be energy spenders. So their bank might be full if they've had a lot of alone time. Then every interaction with the outside world, including people, tends to be a withdrawal from their energy bank. [00:10:15] 

 

A lot of times in social settings they're receivers instead of initiators, like people that prefer extroversion. For their brain to process, a lot of times it means the mouth has to be closed. They generally, again, need more time to recoup, especially after social interactions. 

 

In terms of spiritual practices, a lot of people that prefer introversion I know, they actually are drawn towards solitude and silence as a way of recouping. It could be journaling or spending time alone in nature, that sort of thing. So even though we all might like that, most of my friends that prefer introversion, that's something that they really are drawn to in their preference. 

 

Something that's interesting about introverts and extroverts when we think of how we interact and work together, there's going to be a natural tension there, of course. A lot of times extroverts and introverts they tend to have conflict over when to talk about things or when to have an argument. 

 

For example, when my wife prefers introversion, whenever we have to talk about something important, I'm used to processing verbally so I want to talk about it right then and there, but a lot of times she needs some time to process and formulate her opinions on things. And that could create an additional conflict, which we've learned to kind of laugh at now, but in the beginning, it wasn't quite as fun as you can imagine. [00:11:39] 

 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to have personal examples to bring it to life. Just to summarize so far, the letters would be either E if you prefer extroversion or I if you prefer introversion. 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes, that is correct. 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. You want to lead us into the next dichotomy? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes. Yes. The next dichotomy is sensing and intuition. The letter is S for sensing. And for intuition, the letter is N because the I has been already used for introversion. So people that prefer sensing... Now, these are actually the first brain functions that Carl Jung gave a theory about. 

 

So the brain is either doing two things when it's conscious. It's either taking in information or it's coming to conclusions. And so this dichotomy of the sensing and intuition is the part of the brain that is taking in information. Or another way to say it is what am I paying attention to? And people have different preferences. [00:12:40]  

 

It would be like if I were to ask you to fold your hands or to clasp your hands. And if you look down at your hands, you'll find that one of your thumbs is above the other thumb. Now, if I ask you to spread your hands apart again and then bring them back together, but using the opposite thumb on top, my guess is it feels kind of awkward and strange. 

 

So for me, when I naturally do that, my left thumb is above my right thumb and that feels normal and natural. Whereas when I put my opposite thumb on top, it feels very unnatural. It'd be my right thumb on top. Well, the interesting thing about that is I've probably been clasping my hands a million times over the past 46 years. I probably did it when I was one or two years old by observing somebody else. And I did it the same way every single time without even thinking about it. 

 

That's a great analogy for how our brains naturally prefer one of these functions over the other one. So it doesn't mean that people do it the opposite than I do are wrong. It just means that our brain has a preference. [00:13:41] 

 

So people that prefer sensing, they prefer to take in information via specifics, concrete data. The main question that their brain is answering is what is it? What is it? They tend to be in the moment, realistic and practical. They tend to make decisions by experience and known facts first. And oftentimes they will think about things very linearly. 

 

Another thing that's interesting about this particular dichotomy is that people that prefer sensing make up about 75% of the population, according to the millions of people who've taken the instrument. They have data to support that. 

 

And then according to a spiritual practice, there's a lot of people that prefer sensing. Most likely they're actually going to prefer to use their five senses when they experience God, when they worship God, when they're with other people. 

 

The other side of that dichotomy are people that prefer intuition. They tend to start with the big picture or to start with the vision. [00:14:44] The question that their mind is asking is what does it mean? What does it mean? They tend to look for possibilities first. They're often imagination based and they're okay going from leaps and bounds of ideas, often without segues. 

 

Many of us who prefer intuition, we rely on hunches. And just like the math states, we're about 25 percent of the population. And a lot of times our spiritual practices might be centered around theology and concepts and symbols as that's kind of where our mind naturally goes.

 

In terms of working with people, whether it's a spouse, a friend, a family member, a co-worker, a lot of times conflict in this dichotomy with sensing and intuitives has to do with the content of the argument. 

 

So a great example of this would be in anybody's workplace. Most likely they have a team meeting and maybe a brainstorming session. Well, intuitives like to start with the big picture first, the grandiose idea, whereas people that prefer sensing, they like to start with the details. 

 

So oftentimes when a big picture is presented, someone on the team that prefers sensing will usually say pretty quickly, well, how are we going to do that? And then a person that prefers intuition, oftentimes that can be frustrating for them because they're trying to brainstorm. [00:15:59] 

 

So if people don't understand how the others are wired and how they naturally think, then that can be an unnecessary source of conflict. When hopefully if people can gain an understanding about themselves and everyone else in the room, that they can actually fulfill the goal of this instrument is to create a constructive use of the differences. 

 

Because we all know that both of those are really important. It's really important to know the details of a project and how is it going to get done. But it's also important to dream and have vision and think outside the box. So we're all important and all is needed. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is really interesting. I've never heard the percentages before. Are any of the other dichotomies favoring one or the other as strongly as the S and the N?

 

Scott Wildey: Yes. That's a great question, by the way. So introverted and extroverted is about 50-50. The interesting note about those percentages is even in other countries that we might assume might either be more introverted or more extroverted are still around 50-50. [00:17:00] Judging and perceiving is also about 50-50. 

 

But the one that has a little bit of diversity is the thinking and feeling dichotomy. And that's actually the next dichotomy that we're coming to. But that one has a gender difference. And people that prefer thinking... men tend to be 60% preference of thinking and 40% preference of feeling. Whereas women tend to be about 70% to 75% feeling and 25% to 30% thinking. So that's the only one that has this gender difference according to the people that take the instrument. 

 

And I think the question that that leads me to and that should lead all of us to is what happens if you are a gender that's in the minority of that type preference? So another way of asking that is if I'm a man and I am that prefers feeling, what kind of assumptions and judgments might other people make about me? [00:18:01] Or better yet, if you're a woman that prefers thinking in the minority of other women, what kind of assumptions and judgments might other people make about you? And so it's incumbent on all of us then to go beyond those stereotypes and again, to learn this constructive use of differences. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. Just taking all of this in. So tell us about the thinking and feeling. 

 

Scott Wildey: This is the next brain function. So the first brain function was taking in or receiving information. And this brain function is actually coming to conclusions based on that information. So in other words, I based my decisions on (and then fill in the blank). 

 

A person that prefers thinking, they tend to base their decisions on logical implications. Now, keep in mind that these words are specific words and meanings to the Myers-Briggs. So if I prefer thinking, it doesn't mean that I don't feel. I'm not a cyborg or something. And then if I prefer feeling, it doesn't mean I don't know how to think. Maybe more constructive words for us today might be objective and subjective. 

 

So a person that prefers thinking, they base their decisions more objectively a lot of times on impersonal analysis or logic. They tend to be task-focused, not a lot of fluff, and how they like to make decisions. And they also show an intention to care by fixing. [00:19:23] And fairness to them is usually everyone is treated the same. 

 

In terms of spiritual practices, a lot of people that prefer thinking, they might prefer studying and studying ideas and theology. And knowing about God is often a starting place or the intellectual pathway for people that prefer thinking. 

 

On the opposite side of the dichotomy, people that prefer feeling, just like it says, they typically base decisions based on personal values or subjectivity and the impact that decisions are going to make on people. They also tend to show care by encouraging. And to them, fairness is the context, and that people would be treated uniquely according to that particular situation that they're in. They're very relational-focused and spirituality for them or spiritual practices for them might include lots of expression, experiences, and people. 

 

The conflict that these preferences tend to have with each other is over... is the conflict we're having about the relationship or the issue. In other words, how much are emotions playing in this decision? And since fairness and intentions are coming from these opposite places, then without understanding, there is a lot of conflict in this particular era with most people. [00:20:45] 

 

Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. And if you said there's such a difference between the genders, typically. I can see where that would bring up a lot of marital issues. 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes, indeed. Indeed. 

 

Laura Dugger: Do you mind leading us into the final dichotomy? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes. The final dichotomy is how our brains like to be organized in the outer world. Or another way to say it is my preferred lifestyle is. And people that prefer judging and people that prefer perceiving, that's the dichotomy on this one. 

 

But again, these words are a little tricky. They mean something in the Myers-Briggs type indicator that might mean something different in the outer world. So if someone prefers judging, it's not meaning moral judgments or that they're a jerk or something. It just has to do with their attitude towards the outer world. 

 

So someone that prefers judging, they actually like closure quicker. There's a joy in closure for them. They typically plan ahead and then they follow that plan in a pretty close regimen. They like lists and checkboxes. Change for them takes more energy, whereas deadlines are very helpful to their organization and their structure. [00:21:54] 

 

People that prefer judging also tend to be very decisive and systematic. And for them, it's about the destination. That's a really big value for them. Then in terms of spiritual practices, people that for judging, they often like a very structured time. So maybe a certain kind of liturgy would be very supportive for them. 

 

People that prefer perceiving are people that prefer the joy of gathering information and the joy of processing. So they tend to like to keep their options open. Change is expected for them, if not thrived upon. And people that prefer perceiving want open flexibility and their tentative at making decisions. And for them, the big value is it's about the journey. And oftentimes, spiritual practices for them might be times of spontaneity where there's an open schedule, where they can interact with God in different ways without being overly controlled. 

 

In terms of working with one another, with our friends, family, workplaces, people that prefer judging and perceiving tend to have conflict over time. Time is a really big issue and a really big difference in how people that prefer judging and people that prefer perceiving perceive time. [00:23:07] 

 

An example of this, if you were to ask a person that prefers judging if they need to get their work finished before they play, almost always they will say, Yes, I have to finish my work before I can play. Well, if you ask that very same question to someone that prefers perceiving, they will often not totally understand the question. They might say, well, my work kind of is play or I take breaks and it helps my work. And oftentimes that can frustrate people that prefer judging, I found, when really it's just a different way of living one's life that isn't wrong or bad, it's just different. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is so interesting to hear that breakdown. I'm so curious, do people's letters change throughout seasons or their life or are they finding that the four letters that you identify with that will be true of your whole lifespan? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes, it's a both and. That's kind of the way I've looked at it. So the theory states actually that one's type is one's type. [00:24:08] So one's brain doesn't change in terms of their type. Whatever type that you have, that is your lifetime preference. And that makes sense in many ways because we all are each of the letters. But each of us has a dominant preference. 

 

So I think a lot of people get confused when they feel like they have to choose just one of the letters because their life experience is both of the letters in each of the dichotomies. I think when people understand that, well, yes, we all experience both of these letters, but your brain does choose because as a preference, then I think people feel more comfortable owning kind of how their brain is already functioning. 

 

But something else that's interesting about this is there's different sub-theories to this theory. And the first theory, which we don't have probably a lot of time to go into today, but it has to do with type development. And basically what that means is that while one's brain is forming up to about the age of 25 is that each of their letters is kind of going out for a trial. 

 

For people that are under 25, that could be confusing if their personality type has been developing. Or just as important, it could be confusing to their parents who think they understand what their type is, but maybe their children have been experiencing different attitudes or different preferences over that time. [00:25:28] 

 

Then the other kind of sub theory has to do with the second half of life. Those of us who are in our middle ages kind of understand that there's a segment of life where your preferences change a little bit. Well, that theory basically says that whatever our least preferred functions are, there's a time of life when we want to redevelop those or we want to develop those, especially things that have been repressed or have felt most childlike during the first half of our life. 

 

So it doesn't necessarily say that our preference changes. It's just merely saying that our comfortability with our least preferred types letters, we're more apt to try on without as much resistance. Does that make sense? 

 

Laura Dugger: I think it does. And let me share a personal example and see if this fits in the second theory that you're talking about. 

 

Scott Wildey: Sure. 

 

Laura Dugger: Before I was a mom, I identified and preferred P, perceiving, instead of J, judging. [00:26:29] And that was always how I lived my life. But now as a mom, I've noticed the J seems really beneficial. And so I'm trying to grow in that. And would almost identify more with that letter during this season or just in the functions at home with the kids. So would that fit into the second theory? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yeah, I think that would go into the second theory. I'm glad you share that story because it brings up an important point that Carl Jung made. He said the goal of understanding and awareness of yourself is actually that you can toggle back and forth to your least preferred preferences with more awareness and then usability. 

 

So it doesn't mean that you're going to switch your dominant preference, per se. But it does mean that over time, with more understanding and more practice, that you'll be able to toggle back and forth with less resistance. So that could be what's happening with you as well. [00:27:30] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you. Hopefully, that's helpful to somebody else who's listening and processing for themselves right now. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

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Laura Dugger: Let's just move on towards couples. Do you often see couples who are marrying someone similar to them or someone who is opposite? 

 

Scott Wildey: I mostly see couples who marry their opposite or at least more opposite than they are. There's definitely a range. I think more people marry a person that's different than them than people that are the same. 

 

Laura Dugger: And do you have any savvy tips to share with both types of couples, the ones that marry someone similar to them and someone opposite? [00:29:36] 

 

Scott Wildey: Yeah. There's a great book I'd recommend for couples. The book is called Just Your Type: Create the Relationship You've Always Wanted Using the Secrets of Personality Type by Paul D. Tieger and Barbara Barron Tieger. It's just a fantastic book. I can't recommend it enough. 

 

One of the points they make in this book is that if you marry someone that has a very similar personality type as you do, then there's a good chance that you will avoid a lot of personality conflict that the rest of us have to go through. So that in many ways is a blessing. 

 

On the other hand, though, if you marry someone that's different than you, you will probably have more conflicts in the beginning, and you'll have to put more energy and work in working out that particular sets of conflicts. But then you're more prepared really to understand and work with other people in the world. 

 

So it is a trade-off, but it is true that if you marry someone similar or a couple of someone similar, that you will probably have less at least personality conflict than someone who marries somebody different. [00:30:41] 

 

Laura Dugger: I like that because it's positive, no matter what type of person you marry. 

 

Scott Wildey: Yeah. 

 

Laura Dugger: I'm sure that people are curious, what are both your type and your wife Linsey's type? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes, my type is an ENFJ. However, I'm going to give a qualifier. And the reason why I'm going to give a qualifier, this would have to be a whole different podcast. There's actually a step two of the Myers-Briggs type indicator. Most people take the step one, which I would recommend. That's a great place to start out. But the step two has more questions and it also measures one's facets of their particular letters. 

 

The best analogy I've heard of is, let's say that each of us can identify with a particular political party, Democrat, Republican, independent. Well, each of those parties is going to have a platform of values and ideals. 

 

So our personality type is very similar. So let's say that I'm an extrovert. I'm going to have certain things in extrovert or characteristics or facets.

 

And most of those I'm going to prefer. But almost all of us have what's called an out of preference in those particular facets. And so I have an out of preference. Even though I prefer judging, I have an out of preference for being pressure-prompted. 

 

So being pressure prompted is a characteristic that most people that prefer perceiving share. [00:32:04] But I, because we're all made unique, I am very pressure-prompted. So I call myself an ENF pressure prompted J. And I don't want to confuse people too much, but it's also true. So that's how people experience me. 

 

Then my wife is an ISFJ. We both have the F in common and we also both have the J in common, but it is savvy and it is spicy. And the reason being is because since I'm a pressure-prompted J, our J's will look different. 

 

And really, if you are with someone that has the exact same letters that you are compared to other types, you'll experience so much of the same ways that your brain functions in the world. However, if you're just comparing yourself to each other, you'll see a vast ocean of difference. And that's the beauty of this whole thing. 

 

So even though we're both F's, because I'm a man and she's a woman, there's differences there. And even though we're both J's, because I'm a pressure-prone J, we experience each other differently. 

 

Laura Dugger: So it seems like we could just unpack this for so long, but maybe we could boil it down. Is there one area where you and Linsey have mastered conflict resolution as it relates to your letters? [00:33:18] 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes, there is one area and that has to do with the S and N dichotomy, which is the sensing and intuition dichotomy. So my wife prefers sensing. She's very detailed, data-driven, concrete, and I prefer intuition. So I like to start with the big picture. 

 

Even after working with this instrument for 17 years, when I get a three-paged spreadsheet full of data information, my instant response is panic and it overwhelms me. Thankfully, she understands this and has a lot of grace for me. 

 

So one thing that we've done is we both had to, in a sense, meet in the middle. She likes to have family meetings because it really helps us, not only our schedule, but our goals and different things that need to happen to run our household. 

 

Unfortunately, I tend to resist family meetings, not because I don't want to spend time with my wife or not because I don't think that the things we're talking about are very important, but really it's because I know they're going to involve a lot of details. [00:34:26] 

 

And so one thing that we've learned how to do is she will give me a lot of lead time. And she'll probably have to mention it about three or four times, but she'll start off in saying, "Hey, we haven't had a family meeting in a while. When do you think it would be a good time to do it?" That's a great way to get me warmed up to the idea versus her just bringing a spreadsheet on me, which hasn't worked out too well. 

 

Then usually, and I'm still growing in this area, but usually she'll have to mention it one more time and then I'll give her a date and a time and we'll meet. And she'll only give me little chunks at a time, which is really helpful. 

 

Then she'll assure me at the end of it, Hey, I'm going to take this and you're going to take this and this is how this is going to get done. And that really helps me. 

 

Then usually she asks me questions about what I value, what I'm wanting, where do I think we're going? You know, questions that will tap into “me” need and my need for the bigger picture. So then, in a sense, we both win. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's always helpful to hear stories. So thanks for sharing that. [00:35:27] Let's just give a few examples for the couples who have married somebody that's opposite of them or at least opposite in some of these dichotomies. 

 

Scott Wildey: Yeah, definitely. I think for those of us who have married pretty opposite types of people, one thing that I would mention that undergirds all of this is how important respect is. 

 

The root of respect is for any one of us to reconsider or to be open really to another perspective. And it doesn't mean that we have to change our mind or anything like that, but it does mean that we're going to love people by listening and even consider that, oh, this might be something I'm missing. 

 

I know that that has really served me a lot over the years. I didn't start off my marriage, really exercising that posture. And so thankfully I've learned a lot and that has really helped us. 

 

Then another thing I would encourage people, especially if they're different, but really any couple, is to look each other in the eye and tell one another this statement: I cannot change you. And then if you're really open for extra credit, the next statement that you can say to each other and look them in the eye is: I will not change you or I should not change you. [00:36:41] 

 

That's just important to note. Jung said in this theory that these are natural, innate, inborn differences. They're not wrong. So it's not wrong that someone thinks and perceives and comes to conclusions differently than we do. In a sense, it would hurt our dignity if we do try to change people.

 

That's kind of how I would start off. But in terms of some examples, I've noticed that couples, in terms of the introvert and extroversion dichotomy, if they are different, that a lot of times they have conflict about their social or their family calendar. 

 

One example is, since my wife and I are both really active in our church community here in San Diego, we like to have small groups in our home. I, at one time asked my wife, well, how often during the week do you want to have people over, whether it's another couple, whether it's someone we're mentoring, or whether it's we're having a small group. And I was expecting her to say, Oh, maybe two times, maybe three times. And she basically said, once a week. [00:37:42] Then if one week a month, we could just have totally off. 

 

I was blown away by that. Now, I shouldn't have been surprised by that, because my response to her is, I'm actually okay four times a week having people over. And she was equally shocked. So we've had to come together and respect each other's desires, wishes, and decide on what will work for both of us and for our family. But I've noticed that a lot of couples have conflict in terms of their scheduling and their calendar. 

 

Laura Dugger: That was a great example. Do you have any other tips for the dichotomy of S and N? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yeah. For the S and the N, a lot of times, this is really where couples get into problems with communication. So like I mentioned before, people that prefer sensing, the details are really important to them. And their mind naturally thinks that way. So not having details, in other words, feels unsupportive, and a lot of times, can induce a kind of fear, just not knowing what's coming next. [00:38:44] 

 

Whereas people that prefer intuition, like I shared a story about me, details too soon or too quick can feel overwhelming. And so we've definitely had issues trying to talk to each other. Even as something as simple as about how our day went. 

 

I remember one time a few years ago, coming home, and we hadn't talked the entire day. And I'm trying to make a connection, and I simply asked my wife, who prefers sensing, how was your day? And she looked at me almost with a puzzled look in her eye, if not frustration. And she said, "Well, what do you mean, how was my day?" And I said, "How was your day?" Again, I repeated the same phrase. 

 

And she looked at me again, and she said, "Well, what part of my day are you talking about?" Because she tends to think very linearly. And I was thinking big picture. And I said, "Well, I'm talking about the how was your day part of how was your day?" And it turned into a little spat when it didn't need to. 

 

Now I can kind of see the perspective. When I ask her, how was your day? She's thinking of her day in about 20 different increments. And there's 20 different answers to that question. So that question to her doesn't make any sense. [00:39:54] 

 

Where to me is a I just want a big picture, just give me a general umbrella of how the day was, and then we can start to double-click on what that means. And so that's a funny story now that we can laugh at. But at the time, it almost turned into a serious fight.

 

Laura Dugger: I can see where the communication would get jumbled there. 

 

Thanks so much to KP for me who left a five-star rating and reviewed on iTunes with this quote. "I absolutely love the intro episode and hearing the personal stories of The Savvy Sauce team. The obvious smiles behind the voices brought a smile to my own face while I listened. Can't wait to listen to every episode. I'm fairly new to the world of podcasts, Savvy Sauce is an awesome place to start." Thank you so much for taking the time to write that.

 

This grassroots approach is the best way to get The Savvy Sauce podcast in front of more people so that we can continue to get amazing guests on the show and receive sponsors who make the shows financially possible to produce. Thanks for your contribution. 

 

And go ahead, take it away with the thinking and feeling. [00:40:56] 

 

Scott Wildey: Yeah. So the thinking and feeling dichotomy. This one also has a lot to do with communication that couples have. And usually, this is the one where people feel the most misunderstood. Because if I come into a conversation or decision-making process, my brain naturally thinks of fairness as everyone is treated the same. And the person next to me is coming into this conversation feeling that, hey, what's fair is what is unique to this particular context. Then right from the start, it's going to create fireworks. 

 

So I have found that it's really incumbent on this particular dichotomy to approach any kind of conversation or decision-making with a listening-based posture. And I know that anyone who has been to counseling sessions most likely has gone through some kind of listening assessment or some kind of practice where they will actually work on listening and not necessarily sharing their point of view. And so that'd be my recommendation for people that might be opposite on the FT dichotomy. [00:41:58] 

 

Start off with this idea of seeking to understand, and hopefully, if you're in a loving relationship, the other person will have that same posture, and they will try to understand your point of view. Another way of saying this is to view this dichotomy as you're kind of coming back to home base as focusing on the relationship and not being right.

 

And that's really hard for a lot of us to do but that's the only way that I've seen couples can work through this or really people can work through this is to be curious, to validate the other person's perspective. And validating does not mean that you have to agree with the other person. It simply means, hey, as I've stepped in your shoes, I can see where you're coming from and it's understandable. 

 

When people feel understood, like you can repeat or understand their position as well as they do, then being right actually takes on less of a value for them.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that's great. It's such a practical application. And if somebody just wants to Google speaker-listener technique, they may come up with some more step-by-steps for the process of that. [00:43:05] 

 

Scott Wildey: That's a great tool. It's one of my favorite tools. 

 

Laura Dugger: And there's one more to cover for opposites. Will you tell us about the judging and perceiving? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yeah. So this one has everything to do with time. I'm sure there's other things that people have conflict over this one, but 99.9% of this one, whether it's a couple, whether it's a family member, parents, kids, especially in the workplace, it has everything to do with time. 

 

So I think the thing here is not to assume and not to judge. And again, to come towards the middle, whatever your view of timing. That's really hard to do. 

 

So what I tend to ask people is when they think about the goals and the tasks and the timelines and deadlines they have is, one, did you work together on coming up with that particular deadline or timeline? If the answer is no, then I would say, well, maybe it would be worth coming up with whatever goal and deadline you have together and then you can work through how to accomplish that goal. 

 

Because most people that perceiving, if they agreed upon the deadline, they were going to work at coming up with whatever their contribution is vastly differently than a person that prefers judging. [00:44:15] However, they're going to finish on time and they're going to get their job done. Whereas most people that prefer judging, because it's so different to how they prefer their world, it's very hard for them to see that.

 

I will say of all the dichotomies, this one is a little lopsided. And this book, Gesture Type, that I mentioned earlier, it has a few studies that are listed. And one of them is how do people that prefer judging and how do people that prefer perceiving, how do they relate to one another? 

 

And it turns out that 46% of perceivers feel controlled by their judging counterparts. And that's by far the biggest percentage. So control is a big issue here. 

 

And so if you prefer judging, how can you actually collaborate and maybe have a little more acceptance with people that prefer perceiving? And then if you prefer perceiving, how can you work more within the confines of our counterparts that prefer judging? 

 

Then I would just say in terms of whether you get your work done first and then can play or you can play anytime, just enjoy that in the other person. That's a great example of a constructive use of differences. [00:45:24] 

 

So I think my wife, Linsey, since I'm a pressure prompted J, she loves my spontaneity. She loves that five minutes before we do something, I'll mention to her, "Hey, I think it'd be fun for us to do such and such activity with our kids." She really appreciates that now. 

 

Then I've come to appreciate how much I need and value and desire her structure for our family. So it has been a constructive use of differences. And so I know it's possible. 

 

Laura Dugger: Do you have any final encouragement that you want to leave with couples in hopes of them pursuing a more satisfying marital relationship today? 

 

Scott Wildey: Yes, definitely. Another thing that I learned a few years ago is what many psychologists or sociologists call the fundamental attribution error. Basically, the layman's understanding of that, the way that I understand it, is that I judge people for behaviors that when I do myself, I give myself grace for. 

 

For example, the easiest example I could think of is if someone's late to work, not me, I will usually judge them in my mind. I'll label them as irresponsible, or they don't have consideration for the other people they work with. [00:46:38] But sometimes I'm late. And when I'm late, it's because of traffic or some other reasons. 

 

So that's the best example that I can think of, of the normal ways in which we assume and judge other people that through a little work, we can actually find that it's normal for all of us to make mistakes, and these natural inborn tendencies that we have, they're not good or bad. They're just who we are.

 

Laura Dugger: I think when we do assume the best then of the other person, some amazing things happen.

 

Scott Wildey: Yes. And it is incumbent on us to think the best of other people. It takes work. Unfortunately, at least for me, I'll speak myself, it doesn't happen naturally. But grace is from God. That's the great thing about this is we're actually learning to love as God loves. 

 

A part of that same idea is that instinctively, a lot of us, when someone does something that's different, and we might judge them internally, especially when we're talking about couples, the first question that we will often ask is, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Now, some of us are just asking that on the inside. [00:47:46] But I've been in enough arguments, even with my spouse, where I've said that externally as well. What's wrong with you? Why do you think this way? Why do you do that? 

 

The best thing I could say is, if you reverse that question, and not so much what's wrong with you, or even what's wrong with me, but why do I feel this way, why is this bothering me so much, why do I have big feelings about this, and why isn't it okay, that my partner can't function in this way? Like, what is the biggest problem that's happening right now? And try to focus more on the way that I'm feeling and interacting, and maybe there's something behind why I'm so triggered. 

 

Laura Dugger: If listeners want to connect with you after hearing this conversation, Scott, where could they find you?

 

Scott Wildey: Our website at our church is diveintoflood.com. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of social media. That's something I kind of took a fast from a few years ago, but the fast turned out to be a lifestyle choice. So I'm not really on social media. I'm hoping at some point to start a blog but it is yet to be started. [00:48:50] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, they can definitely head there. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. I just want to close our time with the one question that I like to ask every guest. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so Scott, we would love to know, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Scott Wildey: My savvy sauce is literally a sauce. That is not a joke. That's a pun intended. So Trader Joe's sells a sauce called Zhoug Sauce. It may be pronounced differently. I'm sorry if I offended the creators of it. It's spelled Z-H-O-U-G. And I love sauces. That's why I love Chick-fil-A. 

 

But most sauces add a high-calorie intake, right? So I'm middle-aged. I'm trying watch my calories. Well, the Zhoug Sauce, it tastes unbelievable. You can put it on anything. And it's cilantro-based with some spices, even though it doesn't taste that much like cilantro to me. So that's my savvy sauce. [00:49:51] 

 

Then my only addition would be, if you haven't signed up for free food and goodies on your birthday, you're missing out. I ate so many free meals around my birthday this year, and it was fantastic. It just feels like everyone is celebrating with you by giving you free food.

 

Laura Dugger: That is amazing. I think that's the most creative-savvy sauce we've ever had on the podcast. 

 

Scott Wildey: Literal sauce. It's literal sauce. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well done. But really, Scott, you were just such a great storyteller and communicator, and you really brought this personality profile to life. So thank you for being generous with your time and sharing your expertise with all of us today. 

 

Scott Wildey: Thank you so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:50:54] 

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:51:56] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:52:56] 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

59 Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

59. Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Psalm 127:3 “Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward.” 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen’s Website 

Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Email Dr. Jennifer Konzen

God’s Design For Sex Series by Stan and Brenna Jones

Age of Opportunity by Paul David Tripp

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today we have a returning guest, Dr. Jennifer Konzen. I want you to be aware of adult content being discussed today as we talk about having mature conversations with our children. Please use discernment if you have little ears present. 

 

Dr. Konzen has a very impressive bio because she is a certified sex therapist, award-winning researcher, international speaker, adjunct professor, author, wife to Tim, and a mother to their four grown children. 

 

Today we are focusing on parenting as Dr. Konzen shares creative ways we can connect with our kids. She also describes how we can talk about sex and purity with our children. And she gives lots of encouragement to parents. I'm thrilled to get to welcome her back to The Savvy Sauce. 

 

Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. [00:01:23] 

 

Welcome back, Dr. Konzen. Thanks for joining us again. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, I'm glad to be here. 

 

Laura Dugger: You have always had an awesome relationship with your husband and your four kids. Could you just share your wisdom? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I don't know that I would call it wisdom as much as the hard knocks of learning. I was just sharing with somebody the other day about how even through the ups and downs of our marriage, I think one of our strengths has always been between my husband and I that we really have a strong mutual respect for one another. 

 

I like my husband and he likes me. And so it's funny how vitally important the liking of one another and the respect for one another is. 

 

I love and adore my children, but even in the midst of all the ages that my children have been, we have always majorly prioritized our relationship. Even when they were little, you know, newly born, we were making sure we would go out and just have time with us. [00:02:26] 

 

Through all the years, we've just made sure that in the midst of parenting, because raising four of them has been full and busy, we've just made sure to work on us and keep us the priority. 

 

Like every couple, there's ups and downs in your marriage. And honestly, I tell you, the fact that my husband loves God is the single best thing about our marriage. So keeping our hearts close to God is vital so that even when you do blow it, because wives, husbands, we all blow it, how to recover from blowing it is huge. 

 

So we all have our foibles and our mistakes and our sins, but if we're relying on God, wow, it goes a lot differently on how you resolve those things. And so I'm really grateful for that in our marriage. 

 

Then we are also... we are major partners in the gospel. So we help teach people the Bible. We help couples in their marriages. We read our Bibles daily. So I can't emphasize enough how important that is. [00:03:31] 

 

But then also we have a lot of couples in our lives. So what that means is they tell us what they see in our marriage. And that's been huge. We have an older couple who mentors and disciples our marriage, and we can go to them about whatever is going on. Then we also have close friendship couples that were all quite blunt with one another. And that has been huge through the years. 

 

And then that definitely feeds over into our parenting. I have close friends who will tell me, Hey, I feel like you were a little harsh with your son there," or, "Hey, have you thought about this area of your relationship with your kids and how you need to grow in this?" So having friends that are willing to share truthful things with you about your kids is vital. 

 

Tim and I have worked really hard at making sure that we're on the same page with raising our kids. Like, we really are. We work really hard at making sure that we're thinking the same as far as disciplinary choices or even, you know, how to teach or train or help or support our kids through different things. [00:04:36] 

 

We are pretty honest with each other when we feel like we're blowing things with the kids, ways that we need to be either more nurturing or more patient or more hardline or any of those directions. So I'd say because that whole reliance on God, that whole having really supportive relationships, and then really working hard at making sure our marriage is great has really helped with everything having to do with parenting.

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. A lot of our listeners today are probably in the phase of life where there's young children at home. You had four of them and you had them... were they pretty close together? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, they're all two years apart. When my fourth was born, they were six, four, two, and a newborn. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And even in the midst of that, you could have easily made excuses not to prioritize Tim. How did you do that? And what did you do that prioritized him during those early years that you're seeing the payoff even today? [00:05:37] 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, on a practical level, I made sure my kids went down to bed... We made sure our kids went down to bed at a very regular hour, and then we would always have an hour or two or more together every evening. 

 

Then all the years before our oldest was 12, we had a co-op of friends, so it would be like three other families, and we would watch all of the kids once a month, and then we would have three dates a month. And that was wonderful. So having, you know, like that whole, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, having a village to help with your kids so that you can get time away. 

 

Then definitely we've always had a pretty active sexual relationship, partially because I just feel like that's vital to staying connected on all levels, especially in the midst of having kids. And so prioritizing your time together sexually. So all of the above. Yeah. 

 

Oh, and going and having fun things, going and doing fun things. Huge, huge, huge, huge, can't measure. My husband is a... he really enjoys the outdoors. I do too. And so really making sure that we have fun together is vital. [00:06:43] 

 

Laura Dugger: Makes me think of that scripture: "This is my lover. This is my friend."

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yes, big time. 

 

Laura Dugger: And you live that out well. And then also with your kids, I remember first meeting you when they were quite a bit younger, they were all still at home and you did something special with them related to like a midnight date. Could you just share about that? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. So our goal with our kids is to have time with each one of them alone each week, meaning I would have something alone with two of them one week and he would have time alone with two of them the other week and we'd kind of swap it around so that every week our kid had a time alone with one of us. 

 

Sometimes, in the busyness and craziness of life, that can be a little challenging to fit it in. And so sometimes, because while they were learning... also these were in their early years when they were learning numbers and time and the clock. So I would wake them up at midnight and say, "Look, and they'd learn about what 12 midnight meant. [00:07:48] And I'd say, "Do you want to go to Denny's?" 

 

So our date would be, our time alone would be to go to Denny's at midnight and yeah, have midnight dates. And that's how they, all four of them, learned about what midnight was. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is so fun. How did you find the energy to do that when you had young children at home? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, that one only happened once every couple of years. You know, I made sure to take naps when they napped. I made sure to go to bed at a good time myself. And I made sure to eat well in the midst of that. But energy-wise, yeah... I'm probably one of those people that's kind of filled up by being with other people. So having great connected relationships really helps me have energy for my kids. But then I would definitely say good rest. 

 

I'm pretty decent at making sure that I get time to do things that I enjoy. But well, I did say even more so getting time to enjoy stuff with my husband. And so that is definitely very helpful to my energy level. [00:08:47] 

 

My husband was super supportive. He was the kind of dad that would come home and he's immediately involved with the kids. Immediately. It was never a conflict between us, which I know comes up for couples a lot, where he comes home and he doesn't help, and that kind of conflict that occurs. He was always super supportive. I tell people, just imitate him. It will help life a lot. 

 

Laura Dugger: It can be counterintuitive what you just mentioned, that making sure you're taking care of yourself actually fills you up to pour out well to others. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yep, yep, big time. 

 

Laura Dugger: Were there any specific things that you made sure on a daily or weekly or monthly basis you were doing to fill up yourself? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, definitely being in the Bible and praying every day. I also really enjoy reading, so I'll find time to tuck myself away to do that. I live in San Diego, California, so I love going to the cliffs. Even now, as my kids are older, I have an electric bike and I will ride it to the ocean and enjoy the view or I'll ride it around a lake by our house. [00:09:59] 

 

So I think, for me, intellectual stimulation is huge. I really enjoy reading and learning just on an ongoing basis. And then also I I really enjoy goofing around and having fun with friends, and so prioritizing fun with friends is 

 

Then I would say on an overall basis, I do really like to get out in nature. And so almost all of our vacations growing up with the kids have been road trips and camping. We've literally seen probably most of the national parks throughout the states and camped there and enjoyed the wilderness and climbed and hiked and walked around lakes. That definitely feeds my soul. 

 

There's nothing like having a prayer time in the midst of the incredible beauty of anywhere in California, all of the Southwest, Colorado, and then really anywhere we've gone in the United States. It really helps my own enjoyment of God and His creation, and really teaching that to my kids in the midst of it. So that definitely fills me up. [00:11:00] 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

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Laura Dugger: What is something that you are grateful now that you did in their different seasons, whether they were toddlers, elementary school, high school, and beyond? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Boy, this is going to sound a little repetitive, but I would say absolutely having time alone with them every week. Parenting can be challenging. My kids have all gone through some really tough things through the years, and when they were younger especially, I just felt like I was constantly disciplining them. It was exhausting. 

 

I remember saying to a woman who was involved in my life then that I wasn't sure was I disciplining her too much. My daughter. She was so naughty, and she said, actually, I don't think your discipline is too much, but I do think maybe you're not having enough fun and you're not laughing enough with her. [00:13:00] And I was like, "Oh." 

 

And so I tell people—this really helped me—up your fun with them. I would tell my husband, whenever I would feel, you know, any higher level of frustration with any of the kids, I would make sure to actually go away overnight with them where it was only them and me and we would play. We would do goofy things and we would go out to eat and do whatever we felt like. And I would take them places and we would enjoy.

 

Actually we do live in California. We'd have Disneyland passes and I would take just one of them with me So we would go to Disneyland all together, but I would take one of them. I would actually Kidnap them from school or I would drive them and drop them all off at school and keep one with me and say, "Wait, don't get out." And then they started to learn this over time. And they'd say to me, "Are we going to Disneyland? 

 

Laura Dugger: Noo. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: And I would take just that child to Disneyland or Legoland or the zoo or some kind of larger than they got to not be at school that day. So, just prioritizing my time, my fun, laughing time with them was really vital through those years. [00:14:09] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, I definitely want to try that myself with my own children. That all sounds amazing, and I'm sure they have incredible memories. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, that's the hope. 

 

Laura Dugger: On a little bit more serious topic with your kids, you are a certified sex therapist and you're an expert on this topic. So how did you talk about sex and purity with your children, and even what age did you begin that conversation?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure, that's such a great and important question. So we actually utilized this set of books. It's called God's Design for Sex. I can't remember the authors off the top of my head, but you can Google it, very easy. God's Design for Sex. And then we also used another one. You can find it referred in my book. 

 

We actually have a book called Redeemed Sexuality that's written for singles, campus teens, and parents. So it's got a whole section for parents on how to teach your kids about sex. You can find that referred in there. [00:15:10] 

 

But we would use these books starting at the very first book on... God's Design for Sex is actually for ages like three to five. So at three years old is an explanation on the differences between boys and girls and how babies are in a mommy's tummy and how they're born. So it's not directly on sexuality, but it is on gender and birth. So we did that with all of them at three, explaining their body parts, using the correct words, penis, vagina, so on, for their body, this is the difference between a boy and a girl. 

 

Of course, my older ones saw me pregnant. So we would talk about babies inside of mommy and all of that. Then their next book is like ages, I think like six to nine, I want to say. We had the... this is the book on how sex works, how babies are made. This is the birds and the bees one.

 

At seven... I always recommend to people by the time they hit first grade, there's all kinds of other older ages around them in the elementary school. They're going to be hearing stuff. We think, Oh, my kid doesn't know anything. He's never heard anything. She's never heard anything. No, they're hearing it.[00:16:23]  

 

So we wanted to make sure that we were the first ones to talk to them. That they didn't hear it from their friends., they heard it from us. 

 

At seven, we sat down with those books. It's called How Amazing, something like that. And it's got these hilarious pictures, hilarious pictures, where the egg is spraying perfume on herself, getting ready for the sperm to come flowing up the tubes to her. So we would explain how sex happens and how the penis goes in the vagina, that this is what mommies and daddies do, in detail on how, yes, mom and dad have sex, and yes, people have sex, and this is how babies are made. That was at seven.

 

And then we used the rest of their books and then other materials through the years. Because you don't want to just have that conversation then. We continued to have those conversations periodically throughout grade school and middle school and into high school. Just really giving them an opportunity to ask questions. 

 

Now when they hit those ages they don't want to talk about it anymore most of the time. So you have to be kind of creative. As they hit prepubescence and then puberty and into the high school years, that's not exactly the topic they want to discuss with their parents. [00:17:30] 

 

My kids are all funny. This was long before I was a sex therapist. They were like, yeah, we've always talked quite a bit about sexuality in our family. And so even before I did this professionally, we just felt it was vital to make sure that it was an open, honest genuine conversation through the years.

 

Laura Dugger: Did you know that we save some of our best content for our patrons? You can access these secret podcasts by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on our "Patreon" tab. 

 

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In addition to all these monthly bonus episodes, you will also have access to all of our free downloadable scripture cards, beautifully crafted by Angela at Jars of Grace. We hope you consider joining the club today. 

 

Going to a broader topic, in general, what encouragement would you have for parents? And you can choose any of the phases you've been through, babies through college. [00:18:45] 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Boy, you know, I think... Here's a practical one for babies. When you put them down for a nap, take one yourself. Get the rest that you need. Toddler years, because often there's a lot of challenges around the discipline of those years, the no from the child is strong, the refusal to obey is strong during those years, and so discipline is generally higher. And so it's really important to enjoy your kids, find ways to enjoy your kids, you know, really nurture your relationship with them. 

 

And I would definitely say, if at all possible, when they start in preschool and elementary school, if at all possible, get involved in their schools, go and volunteer, go on field trips. There's ways to do that even just on a rare occasion to take work off. 

 

I would definitely say that the junior high, the middle school, the high school years, you have to really work hard at staying connected. [00:19:46] A couple of the things that we've always done with our kids is to make sure that we're having a family devotional every week. We have a time of just biblical teaching every week as well as then we eat together. Having dinner is vital. 

 

Staying connected with your kids, there's two books I always recommend. One is Age of Opportunity. I highly recommend that book. The other is Staying Connected to Your Teenager. Dinners regularly, family devotionals. 

 

Actually, our kids are in college and they still come home on Sunday nights for family night. We have dinner together, talk about something spiritual, and then we play games, and so we're pretty competitive. When you come and play games at our house, it's not quiet. 

 

It's hard to have the big, deep conversations if you're not having the continual small conversations. So you have to find ways to be together so that then when you have to have the bigger ones, you've got a better relationship with your children during what could be challenging years. 

 

Definitely through college, I've got three in their senior year, their junior and senior year. Especially for me in the senior year, I took each kid away for a big trip. [00:20:52] Tim took them away to go explore colleges, but he always made sure to do something really fun on those trips. We wanted to make sure that even during those years, we were having some really special times together. 

 

Then as college students, I go do stuff. Actually, I was so thrilled. My son, he was like, I want to say 20 at the time. He calls me up but he decided to get Disneyland passes. You can tell all the memories we built through the years with Disneyland. And he was like, Hey, mom, I know you like to go to all the shows at Disneyland. Do you want to go together?" 

 

And so we went to Disneyland. He was 20. He was going with his mom. He and I had never gotten to do this special dinner that you can do there. So I took him to this special dinner at Disneyland. We didn't do any rides. We just went to the shows. And it's such a fun memory that we had. Then we've had some trips to New York. My daughter and I went somewhere in Mexico. 

 

So I have tried to, in the midst of prioritizing my husband through these years, because I very, very much believe in that, we have also tried to do special little small trips with our kids, even as they've come into the college and adult years. [00:22:00] 

 

Laura Dugger: Quality time has been such a priority for you. You love your family well and your friends well through spending quality time together. During those years when they were all at home, if somebody's listening today and they're like, "I want to do this. I want an amazing relationship with my kids. They're all at home right now," what other tips do you have for connecting with your husband, one-on-one time with your kids, still filling yourself up, being with friends, church? What would you say to all of that? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I'd say one of the things that we had to work really hard at through the years is good conflict resolution. Teaching kids good conflict resolution and teaching them to have good conflict with each other, with their parents. 

 

I love Matthew 15 that says, "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault just between the two of you. And if he listens, you've won him over. If he doesn't, bring one or two others along." So since our children were little, we taught Matthew 15, that if they would come alone and say, Mommy, he's da-da-da-da-da, I'd say, hmm, I notice you're by yourself. What do you need to do? They'd have to first go and talk to them individually, and then if they had a problem that wasn't resolved, they had to bring their sibling along with them and we had to work it out together. [00:23:14] 

 

Now, let me tell you, this has not been perfect through the years, but we've had to work a lot on conflict resolution. I actually had one of my adult children say to me just last week that he was with a friend, and his friend avoids conflict with his friends, and he was like, You need to go talk to your friends. And I wanted to say I didn't. I wanted to say, Yeah, gee, I wonder where you picked up on that. But we have revised conflict resolution a ton through the years. 

 

So we also emphasized it with us, how to respectfully come and disagree with us, especially as they got into the middle school and teen years. So even now as adults, our kids are going to disagree with us. They're going to have different views, especially when they're hitting puberty, and they're coming into their own thinking, and they need to. Healthy autonomy is really important. 

 

We wanted to give them a way to make sure they could come to us and disagree. I don't know that we've done that perfectly, but we have striven to do that, and we've grown and learned ways that we've shut them down, because we have shut them down at different times through the years. [00:24:21] 

 

I really believe that if we're going to become more like Jesus, and if we're living with children who are striving to be like Jesus, then our best teachers can be our spouses and our children. And so really learning to be a learner to those in your family about how you can grow and change is vital through the years. 

 

Laura Dugger: And could you even give one example that comes to mind when you think of a time where you did shut them down and then a time where you did train them well to approach you? Maybe something that we could try with our own children. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. My daughter, during the years when it was a little bit more volatile, she would escalate and I would escalate with her and it didn't go well. One of the reasons why it would escalate is because I didn't feel like she was listening. That's a common feeling that parents have. You're not listening to me. And so a parent will say it over and over and go on and on. 

 

My daughter actually shared with a couple different individuals that she felt like her mom went on and on. Big surprise. So somebody said, "Well, how about you give her the tool to end the on and on if you feel like she's really listening. [00:25:30] And so she and I talked about it. 

 

She came up with this. If I were to say, Mom, that, okay, Mom, what you're trying to say is... and then she would tell me what I was trying to say, then our conversation could be over. She came up with this, we agreed on it. She was probably, I want to say 12 at the time. 

 

I'd say within about two weeks, we got into something and it started to escalate and I was trying to get through to her, right, repeating myself, which is one of the greatest failures of most parents is repeating themselves over and over. 

 

So I was doing exactly that, and she says to me... and she's highly escalated at this point. And then she takes this big breath... I clearly remember this moment. She takes this big breath and she says, "So, Mom," which is amazing for a 12-year-old, "what you're trying to say is." And I tell you, she said it right back. And I didn't want to quit talking because I just felt like she wasn't really getting it, but I had promised her that if she told me what I was trying to say, I would stop. And I said, "You're right. That is what I'm trying to say." And I tell you from that time on our conflict shifted. [00:26:41] 

 

So giving her the ability to be assertive with me and me learning to respect that... and she had to do it respectfully. But me learning to respect that really helped our relationship. So teaching them to come to you is vital. 

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. 

 

Laura Dugger: Could you just share where listeners could connect with you and a little bit more about your resources? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. I do have a website called The Art of Intimate Marriage. I have two websites actually. One's The Art of Intimate Marriage and the other is The Ransomed Journey. The Ransomed Journey is for couples where they're recovering from addiction and how to get support through that. 

 

And then the other one is the Art of Intimate Marriage and kind of everything else falls under that. All of my resources for teaching your children about sexuality is on there. Our books are linked there. Everything for married couples. [00:27:34] 

 

Also, all of the podcasts for those who are single and not married and how to live out their sexuality in a God-honoring way is all on that website, The Art of Inmate Marriage. So on there are podcasts. Our books are linked there. The Art of Inmate Marriage is one of our books. 

 

Redeemed Sexuality is the book for single campus teens and parents. And so it helps parents with teaching about sexuality. And we do have a new book called Love, Laughter, and Law: The Power of Parenting. So we really do believe in giving people resources, which is why the writing is continuing quite a bit, so people can have a book in their hands and learn. 

 

The research that I've done is all around sexuality. I've done a couple different research studies. One on married Christian women's experiences of shame and sexuality, just really understanding shame and connection to sexuality. Also, a rather multi-phased research study on taking couples through sex therapy and how they can improve. [00:28:36] 

 

So, really helping couples overall improve in their intimacy, not just sexuality, but their overall intimacy and building empathy, validation, connection is where my research is, and that can be found also on my website. 

 

Laura Dugger: I've read your book before and love it, would highly recommend it. Because we've been focusing on parenting during this time, as we conclude today, what is your savvy sauce as a mama? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say really enjoying your kids. You have to work hard to enjoy your kids. Parenting has a lot of challenges in all honesty. I'd say, honestly, in a practical sense, one of the things that I've really enjoyed through the years, and what I pray about more than anything else for my children, is that they will be in awe of God. 

 

So through the years, helping them learn who God is, how amazing He is, and how much enjoys them is something I've tried to make sure to come back to through the years with my kids. I've tried to live it. I've tried to live it with them and bring them back to there. It is the number one thing I pray for them is that they would be in awe of God, feel His love for them and be in love with Him. [00:29:52] And so I honestly say that is the biggest thing. 

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you for ending with pointing us back toward God. What a great way to conclude. Thanks for your time, Dr. Konzen. It's been great chatting with you. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's wonderful being with you. Thank you. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:30:55] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:31:55] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:32:56] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

58 Perspective in Parenting in the Midst of Sorrow, Betrayal, and Grief with Former Children’s Pastor, Teacher, and Writer, Penny Harrison

58. Perspective in Parenting in the Midst of Sorrow, Betrayal, and Grief with Former Children’s Pastor, Teacher, and Writer, Penny Harrison

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Romans 8:28 (NIV) “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” 

 

Penny Harrison likes to say she is a teacher by nature and training but a people-pleaser since birth. She is currently teaching Kindergarten (again!) in a private Christian school, while also running a newly formed ministry consulting business. Penny is the mom of two grown boys/men, ages 24 and 21. She had the privilege of teaching in public and private schools a total of 12 years and full-time ministry for 18 years. Besides teaching, Penny loves to travel, watch sports of just about every kind (she says "when you can't do, you watch"), read, and write everything from lists to Bible studies.  

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears. 

I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products but cost you only $49.99, visit them at fabfitfun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box. 

I was introduced to Penny Harrison through a different guest on this podcast, Leslie Neslage. You may remember her from Episode 13. She has described Penny as being exceptional. 

Penny has been a children's pastor, author, teacher, and mentor to so many folks in the Atlanta community. She has developed curriculums for children and adults, and I'm excited to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. [00:01:20] 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Penny. 

Penny Harrison: Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Laura Dugger: For anyone who doesn't yet know you, can you just give us a bit of context and share your story? 

Penny Harrison: Oh, sure. I always say that I am a teacher by nature, training, and calling. I've had the privilege of teaching in public and private schools for a total of 12 years. A little over a year ago, about almost 18 months ago now, I retired. Retired would be in quotation marks because I'm definitely not old enough to retire yet. But I retired from full-time ministry after 18 years as being a children's pastor. 

I'm once again back teaching in a classroom setting at this time. I teach kindergarten in a private Christian school here near my house. Also at the same time, I'm running a newly formed ministry consulting business that the Lord laid on my heart to start. [00:02:22] So I've got kind of a lot of things going. 

I'm an empty nester, which is probably good at this point in my life because I rarely cook anymore. Popcorn has become a staple for dinner these days. I'm a mom of two grown boys, actually men now, 24 and 21. 

My oldest graduated from college two years ago, and he lives a bi-coastal, what I would call a starving artist lifestyle. He lives part of the time in New York City and part-time in San Francisco. He's a writer as a trade, but I always tell people he's a waiter to pay the rent. Then my youngest son is a senior in college this year. 

And like I said, teaching is just a part of who I am. I truly believe that I was created to teach, and my absolute favorite thing to teach is God's Word. Besides teaching, I really love to travel. I watch sports of just about every kind. It's kind of that when you can't do, you watch. [00:03:25] I grew up watching sports, so I love all sports, which has been great having two boys. 

I read and I write everything from lists to Bible studies. I love to write. That's just, I guess, a little picture of who I am. 

Laura Dugger: I love that picture. And I'm sure it must take a lot of energy to teach kindergartners. We have a lot of moms and dads that listen to The Savvy Sauce. So from your years of working with so many children, what insight can you provide for us? 

Penny Harrison: Oh goodness, I could go in a lot of different directions here. Here's what I would say first to parents of kids of any age is you will survive. I promise. You will make it. You will survive. Every stage has its blessings and joys, and every stage has its hardships. There's things that are hard about every stage. [00:04:25] 

I think as parents, we all need to hear sometimes from somebody who's been there that we're going to survive it. And so that's my first thing. 

The Lord has been so good to remind me through the years of raising my boys, and I always want to say this to parents, is that God chose you. He chose you to be the parents of the kids that you have. And don't forget that God created them. He knowingly chose you to be their parents. He chose you for them, and He chose them for you. 

As parents, I think one of the things we need to remember is that we're shepherds of our kids' hearts and minds and spirits. We didn't create our kids and we don't create our kids. Parents need to hear you're not going to mess up. Yes, you're going to make mistakes. We all are going to make mistakes. 

But God knew who your children were before He gave them to you. He knows the plans and the purposes He has for them. I think we can take comfort, actually, when we think about it, that our responsibility, although a big one, to guide and shepherd and lead our children doesn't dictate who our kids are. [00:05:32] 

God created them. He put those talents and abilities in them. He has plans and purposes for them. Our job is not to make it, whatever it is, happen for our kids. Our job is really to cooperate with the Lord and to be led by the Holy Spirit in raising them. 

Do you want some specific things I've kind of learned about different ages of kids? Is that helpful? 

Laura Dugger: That would be really helpful because often so many parents are asking, is this normal? So maybe something normal from all ages. 

Penny Harrison: Right. Well, I think one of the things is remembering that we are raising a human being, a being with a will of its own. And that being that's going to become an adult one day, they're going to be disobedient. That's normal. They're going to mess up. That's normal. They're going to experience success. They're going to experience failure. That's all normal. 

And it's not our job to keep them from failing. I actually think we do our kids a great disservice when we catch them every time. And because we're raising a human being, it is messy and it is unpredictable and there is never a one-size-fits-all. [00:06:42] 

I think anyone who has more than one child could tell you that because every child that you have is different in some way. I know raising my boys I would think they're from the same parents and they're raised in the same household and yet they couldn't be any more different, right? 

For parents of toddlers in preschool, think about what you do now in terms of how it will look when they are teenagers. Are we holding them to a biblical standard?

 

Obviously, that is age-appropriate. Take obedience, for instance, because no child, no human being actually wants to obey all the time. 

If you have a toddler or preschooler, you know how exhausting it can be, that battle of wills, no, no, no, no, no, all the time, right? And that's normal. They're really figuring out what power they have in this world that they live in. They've come through the baby stage where they've learned that if I pick up something and I drop it, Oh, if I drop it off my high chair, it falls to the ground. 

They've learned sort of this power that they have over things. And when they go into toddlers and even preschoolers, they're still trying to figure out how much power they have in the world that they live in. [00:07:55]

What actions do they do that affect something else, so to speak? In those moments for parents who are living through that right now, take a deep breath and remember that teaching them the boundaries and obedience in those times it's not just about the moment of those boundaries and the moment of that obedience to you. But long term, it's going to be about the boundaries that the Lord sets for them and the obedience to the Lord. They're going to need to follow and obey Him when they're in a relationship with Him or when they're older, obviously. 

So I think just standing firm and really seeing that your child has a mind of their own and a will of their own is a blessing, and loving that little strong-willed sayer of no in the moment, but also remembering that what you're doing and showing them is ultimately leading them to how they're going to obey and have those boundaries with the Lord. [00:08:58] 

For elementary kids, and because I teach elementary kids too, I think about teaching them how much room you can give them to mess up a little bit. The stakes are really low at that age when they fail, when they mess up. The safeness of your home, the comfort of your loving household, let them fail. Teach them how to brush it off, to stand back up and to try again, to not give up. 

The stakes and the consequences become much bigger as they get older, especially I think in the society that we live in right now. I mean, we all hear the term helicopter parents. We want to protect our kids. And I think we live in a world where we feel like we have to protect our kids more than ever. And I'm not saying that's not true. 

But I also think it's really important to allow our children to have a place to fail and for them to know it's okay to make mistakes. Even going back to the classroom this last year, I've had to have this conversation with parents whose kids think they cannot make a mistake. I mean, there are five. I'm trying to teach them that in my classroom and encouraging parents in that way to say to kids, "It's okay to mess up". [00:10:07] 

Laura Dugger: What might that actually look like to allow an elementary school child to fail? When you say the stakes are low, what's an example that you can think of? 

Penny Harrison: This seems super common sense, but I think it's just a reminder. When you think about a child, let's say they have a project at school and the teacher has obviously given them, this is the standard by which you're going to be graded. But you allowing your child to do it, you know, the way that their mind thinks it needs to be done and you not stepping in and saying, "Well, you know what? Like if you put that picture on the poster board crooked, it doesn't look very neat." I mean, it sounds really simple and it sounds almost silly, but that's an example. 

I mean, I was guilty of the same thing when my kids were doing things that I would think, Oh, I need to tell them not to do it that way, which I'm not saying we don't guide our kids and say, Hey, have you thought about, you might not want your picture to be crooked on your poster board. I'm not saying you don't give them guidance. But I think so many times we step in and we almost do it for them. [00:11:13] That's just a simple little example. 

I think another thing too, this is an example from my own life, my youngest son was a big soccer player. He was having issues on his team, really with his coach. And it would have been really easy for me to go to the coach and say, "Hey, this is the way he is taking how you're saying this." 

And I really felt from the Lord I wasn't supposed to step in. I was supposed to let him fail a little bit on the practice field, let his coach yell at him or whatever he was doing, and so that my son could know, "You know what, I can go to him and say, this is what I'm hearing you say, this is how I'm supposed to do it, and maybe I'm not doing it right. I need to know what you want me to do." 

So he could almost learn what it meant to be his own advocate. I think if I had stepped in for him and I had gone to the coach and said, "This is what he's hearing," I wasn't giving my son an opportunity to grow in that way. Did he have some failure there? Absolutely. But the stakes were low. It was soccer. It was just a team thing. He figured it out. [00:12:21] 

Later, the stakes and the consequences for them not really knowing what it means to kind of have a speed bump or a failure of some kind is much bigger later. I think just encouraging parents to kind of be hands-off when we can and not to feel like we have to step in so quickly. 

Laura Dugger: Definitely. Those are really helpful examples. Do you have any other examples for junior high or high school students? 

Penny Harrison: You know, middle school is... whew, man, that's a tough three years. I always said you feel like it's almost like your child disappears for about three years. All of a sudden you don't recognize them. And the bottom line is they don't recognize themselves either. And I think we forget that. 

I always tell people middle schoolers are like really big toddlers. So remember how your toddler acted where they could cry over a broken cookie one minute and they were laughing because you said the word poop the next, you know? Or they have this do-it-myself mentality one minute and the next minute they want to crawl up in your lap and be rocked. [00:13:26] 

Well, that is how a middle schooler acts. They're just a lot bigger, and their emotions are all over the place. They're unpredictable. They have no idea who they are. One minute they are a kid, and the next minute they think they're grown. And you never know which one you're going to get as the parent. 

I tell people when my kids would wake up when they were in middle school, I was always like, "Okay, which one am I going to get today? Am I going to get the kid, or am I going to get the person who thinks he's a grownup?" 

So my advice for middle school parents is first of all, be patient. And second of all, get a group of other parents around you that you trust, that you can talk to, that we're in this together, and that you can have some conversations around like, This is what's happening with my kid. Is this normal? 

Now, in saying that, I would say keep your hands out of friendship issues as much as you can, because I feel like with middle schoolers too, they go through kind of a push-and-pull time with their friends, even for a friend that's been a friend for years. [00:14:34] Because again, they're still trying to figure out who they are. One minute they relate to their friend and the next minute they don't. So try not to fix that for them. Let them figure it out. 

I think it's really, really important for parents at every stage but I feel like middle school is when it becomes more evidently important is that you have other parents who are in your corner that you can talk to. And this is the thing that I always tell people. I did this with my friends who were parents of my kids' friends, is we would say, "if you find something out that you think is something I need to know, you've heard something, you've seen something on social media, whatever that is, I need you to know that you can call me and I'm not going to be defensive. I'm going to listen, and then I'm going to decide how to proceed from there with my child. But I need to know that there are other parents looking out for my kids, and I'm looking out for yours."

Because there's a lot of, especially with social media, in the day and time that we live, it's so easy for us not to know some things that might be going on with our kids in middle school and high school. And we need to know that we have people who are looking out for our kids like we are. [00:15:44] And we're looking out for their kids. And we have that open communication. And we're not going to be defensive and feel like somebody's telling us we're not a great parent because our kid did this thing. We need to be able to have those conversations with each other. 

Again, I would say middle schoolers, parents, hang in there because there's something about they hit high school and all of a sudden your kid comes back and you're like, "Oh, I recognize you again." And you're a little bigger and you're a little more mature, but you've come back to me. I recognize this kid again. 

Laura Dugger: I think that's really practical. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to tell you about our sponsor for this episode, FabFitFun. FabFitFun is a seasonal subscription box with full-size beauty, fitness, fashion, and lifestyle products. Each season's epic box features a variety of amazing and quality brands, like Anthropologie or Free People. And that's just the beginning of it. I was so excited as I waited to receive my first box in the mail. [00:16:50] 

If you subscribe for the year, it kind of feels like getting a birthday gift that arrives four times per year. And you never know which product you're going to discover in their box that will become your new favorite. 

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Laura Dugger: As it relates to parenting, what truths do you find in the Bible that we may not have considered? 

Penny Harrison: This is one of the things I would say first is stop trying to be a good parent. Instead, be a faithful parent. Nowhere in Scripture does it say to be a good parent. [00:18:13] That's not used in the Bible anywhere. 

We're given instruction to bring our children up in the training and instruction of the Lord. We're encouraged to impart wisdom and hold our children to a standard of obedience. We're called to shepherd their hearts and their minds and their spirits, and it's a huge responsibility. But again, nowhere does it say to be a good parent. 
I think "good parenting", that kind of term, has caused confusion and unnecessary comparisons, and maybe even some discontent. It's just so subjective. How you might define good parenting is not the same way I would define good parenting. So we start to compare ourselves. 

She's a good mom because of this, or he's a good dad because of this, or I'm a bad mom because I don't do it that way. And we do this comparison thing, and I think it really actually ends up hindering our parenting because we're not relying on the one who gave us these precious little creations in the first place. We're relying on what we see outside of ourselves. [00:19:25] 

What we end up doing is comparing our kids to other people's kids. It puts a lot of pressure on us as parents, and it also puts a lot of pressure on our kids. So I say, don't even use those words. Good mom, good dad. Just be a faithful parent instead and ask the Lord to show you how to be a faithful parent. 

We have to remember that we're an example of the Holy Spirit for them. Until they have their own relationship with the Lord and they can be led by the Holy Spirit, we're that example of the Holy Spirit for them. We have to love them for who God created them to be. Stop stressing ourselves out. 

Kids as young as second grade are being diagnosed with anxiety disorders. So think about that. What does a second grader really, what should a second grader have to be anxious about? Nothing. The Lord reminded me, there's a verse in Ephesians, Ephesians 6:4, and it says, "Fathers, do not exasperate your children. Instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord." 

Do not exasperate your children. And I think we can't exasperate our kids unknowingly. There's this undercurrent of the standard of what... something that they can't really live up to, maybe. I think that just is a recipe for disaster. [00:20:44] 

Ask the Lord to lead you and be faithful to what He has given you to be a faithful steward to what He has put in your care. And then ask the Lord to remind you, what am I looking at that's eternal? What am I concentrating on that's just temporal? What's only going to last on this earth that's not going to matter for eternity? And then ask the Lord to help you lead your kids that way. 

Laura Dugger: I think that language shift from good to faithful is really important because it seems like that would lead to a change in our behavior and really our freedom in our thoughts and pressures that we put on ourselves.

Penny Harrison: Absolutely. Absolutely. It does take the pressure off when you think, You know what? God gave them to me. Yes. I want to be a faithful, to be a good steward to what He's given me. But ultimately, with anybody not just our kids, this is for everybody, salvation and... all of that is the Lord's responsibility. 

It's our responsibility to show our kids who the Lord is and to lead them to the Lord but the Lord is the one who works in all of our hearts, including our children. 

What it comes down to is we're putting much more stock in what we can do and not enough in what the Lord can and will do. [00:22:01] And when it comes to raising our kids, man, that's a dangerous place to be. It's all on me. I'm in trouble, right? 

Laura Dugger: And that can lead to so many things in pride. And you can see in the scriptures that He wants us to be dependent on Him. 

Penny Harrison: Absolutely. 

Laura Dugger: Well, I know for my husband and me, a few of our goals in parenting are for our children to personally choose to surrender their lives to Christ so that we can spend eternity together in heaven. And we also hope to have solid relationships with each of them when they're adults. So again, from your years of observation of families, have you seen any similar characteristics of these families who are a little bit further along and they're enjoying the culmination of these goals? 

Penny Harrison: Well, did either of your parents ever say, do as I say not as I do? Mine would say that sometimes. And I think that would be, it's like, do as I say is super important. I don't think that mindset on parenting is super helpful. [00:23:03] 
Now, let me say this. My parents are awesome parents. My mom is one of my best friends. She's amazing. But I do think we can talk and talk and talk to our kids until we're blue in the face, but our kids are savvy and they watch what we do. So I think we want our kids to have a relationship with the Lord. 

Obviously, are we showing them our relationship with Him? Are we praying and reading our Bibles and going to church and living like a missionary? Are we loving our neighbors? We can tell our kids to do and be all of those things, but if they don't have real examples in us, they most likely won't because they won't know how. 
And so I think one of the biggest things I've seen as a characteristic of families, that I can look at these families and say, wow, they really see the fruit in their children's lives of things that they did, kind of really boils down to one thing, and that's intentionality. 

We live in this world, this affluent society, and we're typically very intentional about certain things. We're intentional about the school that our kids go to. We're intentional about the things that our kids do and don't watch on TV. We're intentional about, you know, are they on this soccer team or this soccer team? We're intentional about, oh, they need this dance class so they can do this dance class. We're intentional about those kind of things. [00:24:29] 

But are we as intentional about our kids' spiritual walk? Do we read the Bible to our kids? Do we read the Bible with our kids? Do we point out God's goodness and his provision in our lives all the time? Do we make God and His word a part of our daily language with our kids?

I'll give you a couple of examples. So let's say that, you know, Dad comes home from work one day, he's had a really bad day. And he's particularly down, the family sits down to eat, and he shares that he's found out he has to lay off part of his staff. I mean, that's a real grown-up worry, right? 

So depending on the age of the kids, Dad can share that with the family. This is what's going on, and then talk about how that's affecting him. Because I think sometimes we protect our kids from thinking we ever struggle, that we ever have any kind of worry, that we ever have any kind of hard thing that happens to us. [00:25:30] 

But let's say Dad shares that example with his family, then the family is able to pray about it with him. They're able to talk about, okay, how is God going to lead us through this? How is God going to lead Dad through having to have these conversations with his staff? How is he going to lead him through kind of dealing with, if it's guilt or whatever that is, as he's having to let people go and these people aren't going to have jobs? 

I think we need to show our kids that God is not just a part of Sunday morning. It's not just a part of when we go to Bible study or our small group on Wednesday night or whatever that is. He's a part of every decision we make. He's a part of helping us through the hard times. He's a part of us rejoicing with Him when the things are going well, that He listens to us when we pray, that He answers us, that He guides us.  

One of the things that I've seen in families where you see this really great fruit in their children is that parents were intentional about making that a part of the daily conversation. [00:26:39] 

I think another thing, and this was huge with my kids, when I would talk to them about God and His Word and what His Word says and teaches us every day, that I saw the fruit of that later. And here's what I mean. Every kid is going to make a bad decision. It might be a little one, it might be a big one, but they're going to. Every kid. 

Or at the very least, you're going to have to have a tough conversation with your kid, right? You're going to have to talk about something either they've done or that friends are doing or... you're going to have a tough conversation with your kids. 
And as a Christian parent, most likely we're going to want to pull in what God thinks about this topic and what God's word says about this topic. In that moment, the question is, will our kids see that as we're preaching to them, or will their kids see that as a natural part of the conversation? 

And I think if we're intentional about making God and His Word and what His Word says a part of our conversation from the time that they can even have a conversation, that when you have to sit down and have a conversation about a decision that's going to be made or that has been made, it doesn't feel like you're beating your kids over the head with scripture, it feels like a natural part of, oh yeah, this is part of any conversation we have. [00:28:05] 

Where I've seen parents really be blessed by the fruit in their children's lives later on is that intentionality from the beginning. 

Laura Dugger: Thanks so much to Kp4me who left a 5-star rating and review on iTunes with this quote. "I absolutely love the intro episode and hearing the personal stories of The SavvySauce team. The obvious smiles behind the voices brought a smile to my own face while I listened. Can't wait to listen to every episode. I'm fairly new to the world of podcasts. Savvy Sauce is an awesome place to start." 

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that. This grassroots approach is the best way to get the Savvy Sauce podcast in front of more people so that we can continue to get amazing guests on the show and receive sponsors who make the shows financially possible to produce. Thanks for your contribution. 

From a previous conversation you and I had, you mentioned that God is teaching you about the word perspective. So what are you learning about perspective right now? [00:29:07] 

Penny Harrison: Well, it may be an age thing, but I definitely think this word "perspective" is something I've been hearing from the Lord over the last year, really strongly in the last few months. Some of that is connected to what I've been allowed to share with parents, talking to them about how every age of raising kids is hard for different reasons. 

So I have a heart for telling or trying to kind of convince parents in some cases that it will all get better. Because, you know, obviously, I have perspective because I'm past that. But I also think that the Lord has put on my heart for young parents, in particular, is just reminding them not to sweat the small things, refocus on the bigger picture, what is God saying to you for your child, what are the specific prayers you have for your kids? Those kind of things. Not so much looking at the now, but keeping eternal fruit in mind. 

I always just want to say, will it really matter later that your child is the best soccer player when he's eight years old? Is that going to matter? It matters now. Of course it does. But what is he learning through the process of playing soccer or whatever that thing is that's going to be kingdom values later? [00:30:17] 

I think in my walk with the Lord, I've definitely gained some perspective. We have those moments where we feel like we're climbing or even moving mountains with the Lord and then we have those desert or valley kind of times. 

I think for me personally, what the Lord has been so sweet to remind me of, is that those changes in kind of the temperature of my faith walk are not always a result of what I am or am not doing. The Lord never changes, so our circumstances will change, and sometimes it feels like our closeness to Him changes, but that's really our perspective, because He's always there. He's always working. He never forsakes us. 

And so I think for me, perspective has just really been about remembering that I can't always see that, that I don't always feel that, but His perspective is sovereign and eternal and mine is not. So I trust Him to change my perspective, to be more like His, and to remember that His love for me is not dependent on me. His love for me is about who He is, not who I am. [00:31:25] 

I think for me my walk with Him has just been about "it's not about what I do or don't do". And when I say do or don't do, I really mean like the works that I do. God created me to be such a kind of obedient servant, which could be a good thing, but I can get in a ditch if I am just trying to do instead of just be with Him. And so I think the Lord has just really given me a new perspective on that. 

Then, I think I've just gained some perspective on the world, this crazy world that we live in. Even in my own circle of influences, I just have to stop worrying about things so much. Honestly, it's been a gift from the Lord that the things that used to really bother me don't bother me anymore. 

I would get crazy anxious or worried or even a little angry about things that happened in my life or things that happened in the lives of others that I loved. And God has just given me a more healthy perspective where I worry less. I don't really get my feathers ruffled too much. [00:32:34] 

And there is a righteous anger, obviously, when we allow our hearts to be broken by the things that breaks the Lord's heart. I mean, we can look at some of the things happening in our world and even in our city and we can have this righteous anger that we know that's not what God would want to be happening. But perspective for me has really come down to remembering to daily lay those things at the Lord's feet. 

Somebody gave me a picture once, and I think this is really a great one, is that if you picture the cross and you go up and you lay the things at the Lord's feet for the day. Do you in turn get up to walk away and pick something back up and take it with you? Or do you really leave it there? So sometimes I really have to remind myself, Lord, give me that picture that I'm laying these things down, and when I get up from your feet, when I walk away, my hands are empty. 

Laura Dugger: You also say that the Lord has equipped you to talk about dealing with deep sorrow and betrayal and forgiveness. Are you willing to elaborate? [00:33:40] 

Penny Harrison: So deep sorrow for me, really for the first time in my life, happened in 2002 when I experienced the stillbirth of my third child, a boy that we named Austin. Honestly, I was so confused and I was... I was mad. I was mad at God. 
Months earlier, when we had decided to expand our family, I really felt like it was a leading from the Lord because I really had thought, you know, my family's finished after two and then the Lord really led me to know that I was to have another child. And so I had this anger of why would He lead me to have a child only to take Him away? 

So in that confusion and anger with the Lord, I received some very wise counsel from my pastor at the time. He told me it's okay and even appropriate to be angry, to be mad, to stomp your feet, even yell at God if you have to, but just don't stop talking to Him. He reminded me that God is big enough to take my anger, but what He didn't want was for me to give up on Him. The Lord did not want me to give up on Him. And so I did. I stomped my feet. I yelled. I cried. And God really met me there. And I think more importantly, I met Him there. I met Him in a deeper way than I ever had before. [00:35:00] 

And I really learned in those months following my loss what it meant to have joy even when I was as far from happy as I can get. I don't think I had ever experienced that before. I know I hadn't. I think after that, I really loved God more than ever before. So that loss and that sorrow and how my faith grew during that time would later be the reason I survived a devastating betrayal. You know how God just uses everything we go through for something else that we're probably going to go through later. Betrayal, man, it's tough. It is rough. 

I think we all suffer betrayal on some level in our lives, whether that's in an intimate relationship with a friend, a family member, a spouse, or sometimes we're unjustly accused by someone we know or someone we don't know. There's just all kinds of betrayals. [00:35:54] 

Mine was in the context of marriage. My husband, we had been married for seventeen years, together for almost twenty at that point, he had an affair. And when I discovered it—the way I discovered it was totally the Lord. That's a whole other story—the affair had already been gone on for about seven months. Over seven months actually. 

I certainly don't want to drag my ex-husband or the father of my children through the mud by sharing all the gory details, but it was nothing less than devastating. Brutal actually the months that followed after me discovering the affair. 

I had a ten and a thirteen-year-old boy at the time, and so I'm trying to kind of navigate my own questioning of everything, losing my sense of stability, kind of knowing that my future now was going to look very different than I had ever imagined it would. I also had to answer the questions my boys had, and I had to assure them, and I had to lead them to forgiveness and keep them away from bitterness toward their dad. [00:37:01] 

Like I said, betrayal is awful. It is brutal. But as the Lord leads you through that kind of pain, He also guides you to forgiveness. The sorrow I had felt when I lost Austin, because of the closeness I felt with the Lord then, it helped me in that time of betrayal to really lean on the Lord. 

The Lord leads you through something like that. He leads you through forgiveness. That verse that the Lord tells us to forgive seventy times seven, that was never more real for me than during the time that my marriage was falling apart and the divorce that followed. 

I had to forgive for myself, and I had to forgive for my kids, and I had to forgive out of obedience to the Lord. I mean, I had to forgive and continue to pray for this man who was no longer my husband, but was the father of my kids. I had to pray for the person that I once knew and the person that I honestly could look at and say, I don't know him anymore. [00:38:06] I had to pray for someone who was lost. 

Part of the thing that happened in the divorce is that my husband told me that he had tried the God thing and it didn't work for him. So I had to pray for this person who had walked away from the Lord. And the Lord just continued to show me over and over and over how to forgive. He healed my heart. He redeemed my suffering. 
The Lord even led me to have a face-to-face experience with my ex-husband and his girlfriend, where I was able to tell them face-to-face that I had forgiven them. And just the healing and the redemption that came that was evident for my heart was just miraculous, honestly. 

What the Lord has done through that sorrow and betrayal and forgiveness is He really equipped me to minister to other people. I think part of the mystery and sovereignty of the Lord is that He can take what often seems like the most terrible parts of our story and He uses it for good. [00:39:09] Not that He causes the sorrow, I don't believe he causes betrayal, but He can and He does redeem it. 

I've had the opportunity, the privilege really to speak truth and hope into others' lives because of my experience, which is really nothing short of a miracle to minister to other people, especially women who have gone through some of the same things. 

Laura Dugger: Penny, I just have knots in my stomach hearing about this pain, but I do see how God gets the glory when you share your story because nobody could display joy like you are right now after such devastating experiences if it were apart from God. 

Just to follow up, going back to your story, even with Austin, did you know ahead of time that there were any complications or was it right when he was born? 

Penny Harrison: Well, I was what they would consider a mature. That's a nice way of saying you're an older mom. I was having a lot of tests just to make sure everything was okay, and I went in for one ultrasound, and they let me know that my amniotic fluid was a little low, which they weren't too concerned about. [00:40:22]

 

The baby was growing. He was doing well. 

Actually, what's very interesting is that we did not know it was a boy at the time. Every time I went for an ultrasound they couldn't get a clear picture is it a boy or a girl. So we didn't know. So I ended up on bed rest only because my amniotic fluid was low. The baby was growing. I was hitting all the markers. I had not had any pain, no bleeding of any kind. None of that at all. 

I went for a checkup right at the end of my pregnancy and because I was on bed rest, I couldn't drive. And so my dad took me to the appointment. And when I got there, they did an ultra... Hey, let's do another ultrasound before, you know, this baby's born in a week or two. And there was no heartbeat. So they had to induce me, so I delivered Austin. 

Again, because still even that late I did not know if it was a boy or a girl, we had picked out a girl name, but had not picked a boy name. [00:41:23] But my two sons they had continued to say, "Mom, if it's a boy, we want you to name him Austin." I don't know where they came up with that name, but they just kept saying it. So when I delivered him and it was a boy, we, of course, named him Austin. 

And what's so cool... Again, this is just, again, how God is just so sovereign. And we never even realize how He's working until we look back. But later, probably two years after we lost Austin, I was cleaning out a cabinet and I found a baby name book, and it had been from years before when I'd had my son Matthew, and I had written down names that I liked, and I had circled the name Austin in that book and did not remember that. And here my two boys had come up with this name, what we thought was out of the blue, but obviously, the Lord had downloaded that name into their hearts for whatever reason. 

So I would say there were complications in the sense that I was on bed rest, but never any inkling that we were going to lose our child. 

Laura Dugger: So devastating regardless of when you discover that news. Some of our listeners have walked through similar experiences and maybe there's some people that we don't even know who are listening today and this is fresh for them. So how did you really survive after that? [00:42:49] 

Penny Harrison: I think the wise counsel that I got that it was okay to be mad. Because I think any woman who has lost a child whether that's been an early miscarriage or that's been a stillbirth or that's been, you know, they've had their child and they've lost them devastatingly to cancer, whatever that is. I think that we need permission to feel the pain. We need permission to be mad.

 
And I think for me, I think it was one of those moments where I was like, there's someone right now who is having a child they don't even want. You know, that was what I said to the Lord. And I'm a mom who, you know, I love my children and you know that I want to leave my children to you. And how is it fair? 

I think that just having that permission to be mad and to really talk to the Lord, and I think because I was given that permission and I actually did those things, the Lord healed my heart. He healed it. I remember the first time that I went somewhere with my other two kids and I actually laughed again, when the laughter first came out of my mouth I almost felt guilty. Like I'm still supposed to be sad. [00:44:04] 

And the Lord reminded me, That is joy that is bubbling up in you. You're still not fully happy, but you have joy. And because your joy is in me, I will make your joy complete. That's what He promises us. So I would say to that mom, you know what?

 

Yes, it hurts, and it's okay to be sad, and it is okay to be angry, but to talk to the one who can fix it. 

Talk to your friends. Talk to your spouse. Talk to your pastor. But don't forget to talk to the one who can heal you. And He will. It seems impossible in the moment because you're so devastated. You think you'll never be joyful again, but you will. The Lord will give you that. He promises that, and He is faithful. 

Laura Dugger: Yes, thank you for that encouragement. But you had mentioned that there is a whole story with the Lord for how you did discover the betrayal. Would you like to share that story? [00:45:10] 

Penny Harrison: Oh, it's such a God story. I was a children's pastor for 18 years, and about a year before the betrayal happened and I discovered it, the Lord had led me to leave my current ministry job at a church and go with a church plant to another church. In doing that, my husband and I both were on the leadership team. 
So this church plant that was starting, there were 30 total adults and 17 kids. And there was a group of eight of us, four couples that were on this leadership team. So we were very involved in getting this church started and all of that. And so I was actually teaching full time and doing the ministry job part-time. Because I had gone with this church plant, they couldn't pay me, so I went back to teaching full-time. So I was doing both. 

The very morning that we were to open the doors of this new church to the public... We had been meeting together in a little house. We had finally kind of gotten our own little space and a storefront. And the very morning that we were to open the church to the public, I did what I did every morning. I got up early. I got ready. I was going off to my ministry job. My husband would get the kids ready, and they would come to church later. [00:46:23] 

So I went downstairs to leave, it was if my feet were frozen and the Lord said to me very clearly, "Pick up his phone." Now, I had never looked at my husband's phone. I never looked in his wallet. There was no reason for me ever to thought I couldn't trust him. And I just thought that was the strangest thing. And it was like the Lord would not let me take one more step until I obeyed. 

And he said, "Pick up his phone." And so I did. I picked up the phone and there was a text message, obviously from a woman, very intimate message to my husband. So I went upstairs and woke him up and we had this whole thing and life just crumbled around me. 

But I believe, with everything in me, two things. One, the Lord revealed it to me. There were little things that had happened months before. Little things like go walk the dog with him. He doesn't need to walk the dog by himself tonight. Go walk. And I would walk. And later I found out he was using those times of being out of the house to talk to her on the phone and that kind of thing. So there were little things. [00:47:43] 

But this morning, I believe with everything in me, the reason that the Lord stopped me in my tracks and had me discover that devastating thing then was for me, but it was also for the church. Because here was a person on the leadership team of this church that was about to open its doors to the public. And what better way for the enemy to attack a church than that, right? 

I think that the Lord had me find out that moment, not only to protect me from any further pain or any of that, I also think it was to protect His church. I believe that with everything in me. 

When I found out it was God's timing, it obviously wasn't His plan or His timing that it was happening at all. But I think when the Lord revealed it to me, it was definitely something that needed to happen when it did. And it protected not only me in the long run, but it also protected this new church that was being born that needed its leadership to be following Him and not sinning. [00:48:49] 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Your perspective is just incredible. You've said that going through those awful circumstances has now helped you comfort others. And I think that's just my prayer for today, that whoever is listening, that this would be a comfort to them, even if they are experiencing something traumatic like you had. 

Penny Harrison: Well, I hope so, too. I think that's just the mystery and the goodness of God, how He takes the bad things in our lives, and He can use it for the good of those who love Him. I definitely have seen Him do that in my life. 
Again, I've just had the privilege and the honor to be able to speak truth into other people's lives when they've come to me and said, "Hey, this is happening. You know, can you help me? Tell me, tell me how you live through this." You know, I think the Lord can use that. And that's just such a blessing when you know, okay, this was painful for me, but hopefully I can share hope with someone else that's going through it. [00:49:54] 

Laura Dugger: You clearly just have so much to offer, Penny. I know that it says in the Bible that sometimes Jesus was amazed by someone's faith. Today I just want to let you know I'm amazed by your faith. So thank you for being faithful and being such a witness, really, to all of us. 

If somebody would want to find you online, where can they go? 

Penny Harrison: Well, a couple of places. I have a website for my ministry consulting business. My business is called It's Not Child Care and I have a website, itsnotchildcare.com. They can find me there. I also have a blog called Straight Talk Wavy Life. The address for that is just pennyharrison.blogspot.com. 

Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will surely link to all of these in the show notes. I've really just appreciated this time together. So I have one final question for you. 

Penny Harrison: Okay. 

Laura Dugger: We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And so I am curious, what is your savvy sauce? [00:51:01] 

Penny Harrison: Well, it's not very spiritual, but for me it is key. My savvy sauce is to laugh every day. Talk to someone who makes you laugh, watch a comedy, read something, just do something that makes you laugh. Laughter is just a mood changer.

I'm kind of an easy laugher, so this isn't really... It's not hard for me. I mean, I can just talk to one of my kids, my two sons, they make me laugh all the time, or I can read a funny blog, or honestly, I can just watch an episode of an old episode of Friends on Netflix and I'll laugh. So I just try to do one thing every day that will make me laugh. You know that saying, you rather laugh than cry? So I try to choose laughter and I just try to find something to make me laugh every day. 

Laura Dugger: I love it. That's a great challenge to end on. Thank you for all the nuggets of wisdom that you shared with us today. It's been a pleasure.

Penny Harrison: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor. [00:52:01] 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:53:07] 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:54:09] 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:55:07] 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee

57. Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Psalm 143:8 (NIV) “Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I life up my soul.” 

 

Kat Lee is passionate about teaching others how to jump-start each day with a grace-filled, life-giving morning routine. She is the author of the Hello Mornings book (published by Thomas Nelson), a speaker, podcaster, and the founder of HelloMornings.org. She and her husband, Jimmy, live in Waco, Texas, with their three children.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products, but cost you only $49.99, visit them at FabFitFun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box. 

 

I can't wait for you to hear this chat with my guest, Kat Lee. Kat is an author, podcaster, blogger, and speaker, and I expect you to complete this conversation feeling empowered to make her recommended three-minute change in your day that will actually change your life. 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Kat. 

 

Kat Lee: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be with you today. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, let's just dive right in. Can you start us off by telling us your personal story of redemption? 

 

Kat Lee: Absolutely. So, you know, have you ever seen Goonies? Do you remember that show that came out when we were... Well, maybe I was a kid. I'm not sure how old you are. But like the bad guys have this one kid, and they're like, so, you know, tell us what happened. [00:01:30] And then he goes back, well, I was born in whatever, whatever. And he goes like way back to the beginning, and they didn't mean for that. 

 

So whenever people say what's my personal story of redemption, I kind of have to go back to when I was born, but it feels like that part in the movie Goonies because they're not expecting me to go that far back. So hold tight, everybody listening. I am going back to when I was born, but I promise not to go year by year because that would be a long time. 

 

But it does go back to when I was born because when I was born, nine months afterwards, my mom actually passed away. So I never got to meet her. Actually, up until I think about seven or eight years ago, I don't think I ever even saw a picture of her and I in the same photograph. So just growing up, I didn't really understand motherhood. I felt like I had this hole. I was on the outside of this relationship that everybody else had and everybody else understood. [00:02:27] 

 

I remember I would go to school or Sunday school, and we would make crafts for Mother's Day or whatever, and it was just this painful place where I would be obedient, make the craft, and then just throw it in the trash on the way out. And just felt like, okay, well, it's not something I can change. I'm never going to understand what this whole mother-daughter relationship is. 

 

My dad was a single dad. He was great. He did great with my brother and I. But, you know, I was never dressed super cool. I was always kind of a little bit outside of the bubble of what that mother-daughter relationship is, of going shopping with your mom and all those things. 

 

As life went on, just kind of reconciled myself to the fact that I was never going to really understand the whole thing. And it's just so neat. I actually specifically remember, I guess I was in my 20s, and I was at a Sunday school lunch or something, and my Sunday school teacher was sitting with her daughter on her lap. She was maybe 9. [00:03:24] They were playing like one of those hand-clapping games. And I never, never understood those. I don't know if that was my lack of rhythm or a lack of a mother to teach me. I don't even know what. 

 

But they were playing one of those games. And it was just this moment. I was sitting there eating my barbecue and looking at them and thinking, you know, I'm 26 years old at this point in time, "I'm never going to understand what that relationship is like." 

 

You know, now looking back on that moment, I can kind of almost imagine God whispering, Just wait. Because then I became a mom. And I never really knew what that was going to be like. I didn't realize how that would bring my story so full circle. God totally blessed me with not just one, but two little girls. Now they're teenagers. I also have a little boy. He's 12. I guess not so little. But it's just been so redeeming to be able to be the thing that I always wanted. 

 

And in the process of this whole journey of motherhood and just following Jesus, I think we'll get into a little bit more of this later, but I ended up starting a blog about motherhood, which seemed really ironic because I'm the motherless mom blogger. What's that? [00:04:32] But I just felt like that was where God wanted me to go and what he wanted me to do. 

 

The blog ended up doing well, and Compassion International, it's a child sponsorship organization, they invited me on a trip. I remember when I got the invitation, it was a text message. And it said, "Hey, we're going on a trip. Do you want to go?" Because they would invite writers to go and see the work that they did in these different countries. 

 

I followed Ann Voskamp and Melanie Schenkel and all these people that I really admired, and I was like, "What? I get to go? This is amazing. I get to impact these kids' lives." I was just so honored and blown away. 

 

Then the next text message said, "We're going to the Philippines. Are you interested?" So the way that brings my story kind of full circle is that my mom was from the Philippines. I never actually knew her. I never knew her family. I never really knew anything about that culture because my dad was all American, blonde hair, blue-eyed and I grew up with that side of the family. [00:05:30] 

 

And just through a bunch of crazy and amazing circumstances, through Facebook, one of my cousins from the Philippines ended up reaching out to me just months before I went with Compassion on the trip. So on the same day that I got to meet my Compassion sponsor child, I also got to meet my mother's family. And there were 18 of them. 

 

We pulled up to the hotel with all the other writers that were with me on that trip and I'm like sobbing, ugly crying, mess, trying to go through security to get into the hotel because there was this wall of windows. And I saw all these people standing there as our bus pulled up. I just knew that that was my family. 

 

And it was this amazing moment where I got to meet the brothers and sisters of my mother and they got to meet the daughter of the sister that they hadn't seen for so long. It was just a powerful, I don't know, kind of puzzle that God put together of never knowing my mom, of inspiring me about the nobility of motherhood and wanting to speak truth to mothers and starting that blog, and then Compassion finding it and then taking me on a trip to the very place that was going to most connect me to the mom that I never knew. [00:06:44] Just so neat how God weaves this whole tapestry of our lives together and can bring us full circle. So that was a little longer, but it wasn't 43 years' worth. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is an incredible story. And your family in the Philippines, they didn't just have a really easy journey to get there. Is that right? 

 

Kat Lee: That's right. There were over 18 of them, and some of them had traveled over 24 hours just to get there that day, just to meet me. And so it was amazing. We stay in touch to this day. The Filipino culture, not having known anything about it when I grew up, was just so amazing to me because they're so kind and loving. If I post something on Facebook, I have a billion people liking it. 

 

And growing up on my dad's side of the family, it wasn't a very big family. And now I have all these people, and they're just liking everything and inviting me to things and sending me pictures. And it's just amazing and fun. And I love how God works things together. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, he does. In light of your story, I love what you wrote in page 11 of your book, Hello Mornings. You said, "But I was passionate about the nobility of motherhood. I knew the power of a mother's influence, positive or negative, present or absent. A mother's impact is undeniable. I clearly felt God calling me to speak encouragement to moms." [00:08:09] 

 

So clearly, Kat, your motherhood journey has played a part in you launching your podcast and writing a book and the blog that you had. So now how has life changed for you since stepping out in faith to encourage other moms? 

 

Kat Lee: You know, I think God used it kind of like when you're in elementary school and you're asked to teach the section on I Live in Texas. So the section on the Alamo. And when you're asked to teach that, you learn so much more about the Alamo than you did when you studied the section on the battle at San Jacinto or whatever, because somebody else taught it. When you're asked to teach something, you dive so much more deeply into it and you learn so much more about it. 

 

And I feel like encouraging moms and using the blog and podcast and now writing a book has just kind of pushed me to focus even more on this topic that's so important to me. It's helped me to focus even more on who I want to be and the kind of mom that I want to be. [00:09:11] 

 

It's also God's used it to connect me to mentors that I would have never known. I've been able to become good friends with Sally Clarkson. She's just been such an encouragement to me, just speaking truth and life, and just love reading her books and everything that she does. And just different women that have invested in me and loved on me and good friends to walk with who maybe understand my season a little better that I might not have met just in my hometown. 

 

You know, sometimes when we step out in faith, we're able to connect with people that we might never have otherwise. God has really used it to encourage me and to kind of uplift me and uphold me as well by giving me great people that have invested in me along the way. So it's been a real blessing. It was scary. 

 

You know, when I first started the blog, I was like, I'm still not qualified to do this. But, you know, the more I think about it, how many people in the Bible were qualified to do whatever it is that God wanted them to do? You know, David was not qualified to fight Goliath. Esther was not qualified to be queen. Not to put myself up there with those people, but I don't think God calls the qualified. He qualifies the called, as I'm sure many pastors have said over the years. But I think it's so true. And just stepping out in faith, it's been neat to see how He has equipped me for the journey. [00:10:25] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and your journey even evolved to you having this revelation of encouraging people to wake up for their day instead of waking up to their day. So can you share a little bit more about that transition? 

 

Kat Lee: Yeah, it wasn't pretty. My kids were little. And for those of you with little kids, how old are your kids, Laura?

 

Laura Dugger: They are all five and under. We have four. 

 

Kat Lee: You're in the thick of it. My kids, I don't remember how old they were exactly at the time, but they were small and they were at the age when alarm clocks meant nothing and sleeping in meant nothing. They would come in and... my alarm clock was them jumping on me, you know, asking for Cheerios or a cartoon or whatever. And I would just start the day on the defensive, waking up to them instead of for them. 

 

One particular morning, I just... I like to say I had a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day and it was not even 9 a.m. I'd been grumpy. And I just remember thinking, My kids are going to need so much therapy for the way I've behaved today. You know, just one of those days where you just feel like you're failing at everything. [00:11:28] 

 

I guess they'd been able to go down for a nap. And I went out to my minivan in my garage in Texas in July, which means it was like 5,000 degrees in there. And, you know, when you're already feeling bad about yourself, you just kind of go to the most uncomfortable place possible. So I'm sweating and ugly crying and just a general pity party mess. And I was praying and I was thinking, "God, I wanted to be a mom. I wanted to do this thing well. I know the nobility of motherhood. I know the greatness of this calling and I stink at it. God, what am I doing wrong? How can I turn this ship around?"

 

I just really felt like what you just said. You know, just you need to stop waking up to your kids and start waking up for your kids. I was like, well, start waking up a little bit early. And I'm like, my kids wake up at, oh, dark 30. I get up early. I've got that nailed. And it was more like, no, I want you just to wake up with purpose and intention and connect with me first. And so I did. [00:12:32] 

 

But, you know, with little kids, you don't know when they're going to wake up. So it wasn't like I could get up and have this magical candle-lit quiet time that was an hour long with worship music playing and have it be the perfect amount of time every morning. It was more of a God, I need you desperately and I'm going to connect with you any way I can every morning and not wait for that perfect quiet time, quote unquote. 

 

And so it just started like that and just started connecting with Him each day and really learning about how our quiet time isn't meant to be just this specific time in the morning. But it's kind of more of a launching point for us to connect with Him all throughout the day. 

 

Our schedule is part of our worship. How am I spending the time that God is giving me? My energy level and how I manage that is part of my worship. How am I honoring the body that he's given me? So, yeah, that's just kind of created this thing that we call God. Plan. Move. And that's kind of the focus of my morning time. How can I connect with God? How can I plan my day according to his purposes? And how can I move and have the energy to move for his glory? [00:13:41] 

 

Laura Dugger: Now how has this simple practice of "God. Plan. Move" changed your life? 

 

Kat Lee: Really, ultimately, just to start my day focused on Jesus. Every morning I try to have my first thought be Psalm 143:8, which is kind of my theme verse. And it says, "Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I entrust my life." 

 

And while I say the same thing every morning, I really want that to be the cry of my heart. I want to truly put my trust in Him and not in anything else that could happen that day. Not in my spectacular plan or my awesome productivity or whatever else. I want my trust to be wholly and solely in Him. I want to follow Him throughout the day. 

 

I want Him to show me the way I should go. You know, not just, okay, I met with you, Jesus, check, now I'm going to go about my day separate from you. That's kind of how it can often be. I'm going to read my Bible reading for the day and then I go about my day. [00:14:43] But instead, the idea of God. Plan. Move has helped me to just really incorporate and weave my quiet time in throughout my day, so that I'm spending time with Him. It starts my day focused on Him. 

 

It jumpstarts my day because I'm spending time with Him. I'm looking at my schedule for the day, submitting it to Him, saying, "Okay, this is what I have on the plate for today. Anything need to go? Anything need to stay? I don't want my schedule or my plans to be my idol. I want them to be my sacrifice. So God, I just submit this to you today. What needs to be added or changed? 

 

I think it's amazing how we have the opportunity to connect with and commune with the God of heaven who created us. Each day he knows exactly who we're going to encounter. He knows exactly what challenges we're going to face. And if we'll just take the time to listen to Him and connect with Him, He can guide us to the exact things we should do, the places we should go, the things that need to be on our schedule or off our schedule. [00:15:45] 

 

So it's just really been a powerful habit for me to jumpstart my day with Him and then submit my day to Him. And then the move time, just to make sure I have the energy to follow Him wherever He's calling me to do and whatever He wants me to do. I don't want to start my day great and then eat a bag of donuts and get frustrated with my kids because I've just had a sugar high and then a sugar low. 

 

So I really want to kind of have a holistic approach to my faith in that the way I treat my body is honoring to Him or not honoring to Him. And how much energy I have is honoring to Him or not honoring to Him. So it's been a real blessing to me just to feel like my life is kind of balanced. Absolutely not perfect, but balanced. 

 

Laura Dugger: So balance is one of the main benefits. Are there any other benefits you can think of that could inspire us to incorporate our own three-step morning process? 

 

Kat Lee: The primary benefit, just being connected with God and starting our day with Him. It's kind of like you think of a football player. [00:16:49] If a football player goes to, let's say, the Super Bowl, what he's never going to do is he's never just going to run out in the field and be like, "Okay, everybody, I'm here. Let me throw the football." 

 

No matter what, no matter how late his Uber drops him off for the championship game, the first place he's going to go, he's going to go to the coach because the coach knows the opposing team. The coach knows the opposing team's plays. The coach knows who's injured on his team, what's happening. He knows the whole situation. So that quarterback is always going to connect with the coach and throughout the game, he's going to connect to the coach. 

 

I don't think it's really any different in our lives. I think sports is just kind of a microcosm of what our whole life is. And really just the core benefit of a morning routine is to be connected with the Lord because He can lead us to everything and anything that we need. And if we try to live our lives apart from Him, we're pretty much destined, I think, for disappointment and to live subpar lives than what we could live if we're connected with the one who created us and has a purpose and plan for us. [00:17:51] 

 

Laura Dugger: I couldn't agree with that more. If somebody wants to start their own three-step morning process in hopes of eventually making a habit, how can they get started? 

 

Kat Lee: Well, we actually have a super, super simple thing that we call the three-minute morning, and it's based on the “God. Plan. Move” concept. So it's just one minute for God time, one minute for plan time, and one minute for move time. 

 

So just to make it very simple, we've actually given specific instructions. But again, this is totally... anybody can mix and match however it works for them. But what we encourage people to do is start with... for their God time, just pray Psalm 143. That's that verse that I just shared. "Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I entrust my life." 

 

And just taking a minute and just letting that be the cry of your heart. Be like, God, I just submit my will and my plans and everything to you today. I trust you and I want to follow you. And just taking a minute, praying that to Him. Again, that could be any verse if you want to mix it up. [00:18:54] 

 

Then plan time, just looking at your calendar. Okay, what do I have on my schedule today? God, anything need to go? Anything need to be added? Am I missing anything? Am I forgetting anything? Bring to mind anything important that I need to be doing today. 

 

Then honestly, that's probably going to take like 10 seconds for most people. But if you take the full minute, I don't think we have enough white space in our culture today. I think it's powerful just to take that whole minute and be like, okay, God, I'm really just going to listen. I'm not just going to listen real quick and hope you say something right away. I'm going to sit and just wait here for that full minute. 

 

Then the last one is move time. And we encourage people to drink a glass of water. I think most people are pretty dehydrated drinking sodas and coffee. Just starting your day well-hydrated is a great place to start. But you could also take 10 deep breaths or do jumping jacks. Just something to say, Hey, I realize that it is a gift to have this body. With whatever level of health that I have or whatever level of mobility I have, it's a gift and I want to honor that gift. [00:19:55] I might not be able to do a massive workout today but I'm going to do something and start my day with something to give myself energy so that today can be a great day. 

 

Just three minutes. Psalm 143:8. Look at your calendar. Drink a glass of water or do some jumping jacks. It's super simple. We encourage people to do it every day. And, you know, I know a lot of people might think, oh, that's really simple. That's not enough. I need to do something huge. But I think more often than not when we try to do something huge, it doesn't last. 

 

So if people can just start with these three minutes. And then they can do more after that of whatever they want to. More God time. More plan time. More move time. But having this as a consistent base for me has been game-changing. Because even in seasons of sickness or whatever, I'm able to do these three things. 

 

And it reminds me and establishes my identity that I'm a woman who meets with Jesus every day. I'm a woman who lives with purpose every single day. I'm a woman who honors my health every single day. Even if it's just this tiny, tiny thing. [00:20:54] So I think it's a real powerful thing, even though it's really simple. But it's an easy way for everybody listening to get started. 

 

Laura Dugger: Definitely. It's such a bite-sized place to begin. Like you said, that'll be encouraging to see what it grows into. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

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Laura Dugger: I know that this three-step habit you articulate has been used in such a helpful way to already benefit so many people, myself included. So will you teach us what you've learned through this process about the power of habits? 

 

Kat Lee: Well, I'm kind of a habit junkie, honestly. I love reading books about habit-building. [00:23:02] I think the way that God designed our brains to just naturally want to turn things we do repetitively into habits is fascinating. 

 

I think one of my favorite things about real habits is that when there's things that we want to do, a lot of times we think that we just need a lot of self-discipline or a lot of willpower. But the cool thing about habits is that it replaces willpower and self-discipline. 

 

So if you can do something small continuously, you stop having to think about it. It builds this neural pathway in your brain. It's kind of like Lewis and Clark. When they first crossed the continent, it took them, what, like six months to cross the continent. Now you can get on the interstate and cross the country in a matter of days. Because of the foundation that they laid and all the people that went afterwards day by day or whatever, it continually reinforced that path that was built across the country. 

 

It's kind of the same with habits. Even if it's a small thing that we're doing every single day, the more we do it, the more it's ingrained into our brains, the less we have to think about it, the more it becomes kind of a natural response. [00:24:11] It eliminates the need to have to gut it out and work out every day or gut it out and have our quiet time if that's something that's hard for us to do. 

 

The main thing that I've learned about habits is just the power of them, if we can actually build them. And that the way to build them is through really small, tiny steps. Because a lot of times we think of habits more like New Year's resolutions. Some big thing. "I'm going to suddenly wake up an hour earlier. I'm suddenly going to work out for 30 minutes."

 

It usually, for most people, doesn't happen that way. Just like we don't suddenly develop bad habits, we don't suddenly develop good habits. It's a process, and we need to kind of take baby steps, just like a little kid learning to ride a bike or play an instrument. They don't start off with big chunks. They start off with little ones. So I just love how powerful habits are so that we don't need all the willpower. The easiest way to build habits is by starting with really, really, really ridiculously tiny ones. [00:25:11] 

 

Laura Dugger: You've been at this work for years. What stories come to mind that you can share to illustrate the impact of this habit on people's lives? 

 

Kat Lee: It's been so neat just to get emails from people just sharing how maybe they felt overwhelmed by guilt because they weren't having the quiet time that they used to have in college, and now they have little kids. And so they can't spend an hour, and they're just feeling guilty about it and guilty about it. And they started the three-minute morning, and they're like, I don't need to feel guilty. And just as they're connecting with the Lord, He's able to lead them to verses about grace and about His love, and they're able to grow on that small habit instead of just being crushed by guilt and then not doing anything. 

 

And so I just love how it allows people to restart, whether it's a habit that they used to having when they were younger, and now it's been harder to do as their families and their lives have gotten more complex, or whether it's women who are restarting after big changes in their lives and different seasons. The kids have gone away or whatever. [00:26:14] 

 

But then there's also been people who have read the Hello Mornings book because they're interested in a morning routine or have found the site because they're interested in a morning routine. I actually had one comment, I think it was a book review, it said, "I'm not a religious person, but this book made me want to be." And I love how just the idea of a morning routine is very interesting to a lot of people and it's drawn some people in and really started their relationship with the Lord. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. And He can use anything to pursue us and start a relationship with us. 

 

Kat Lee: Absolutely. 

 

Laura Dugger: And I love in your book, you say on page 38, "There is so much power and awareness in knowing yourself and those around you." So can you just share why that life skill is important and how you personally cultivated this awareness? 

 

Kat Lee: You know, just like anything in our lives, whether it's our computer or our car, it comes with an owner's manual. And if we're going to get the full use out of it, we read the owner's manual. I couldn't figure out how to connect the Bluetooth to my car for a long time. [00:27:19] I am a pretty tech-savvy person. And I was like, Why is this not working? And so I'm like, well, maybe just I should read the owner's manual. So I read the owner's manual and I was able to do it. Years of frustration were erased just by reading the information that came with it. 

 

So I think it's sort of a natural thing. The more we can understand the tools that we have at hand, the better we can use them. Our personality and who we are is really a tool that God has given us because we're like no one else in the world. And the better that we can understand that for His glory, not just for our own selves or to think more of ourselves... If we like what our personality test results are or whatever, it's not just for us. It's ultimately all this is, How can I know myself better so that I can better glorify God in my life? 

 

I just think it's an incredibly powerful thing because then we know why we're responding to people. And it kind of creates this space between things that happen to us and then our response. So, for example, I can be introverted after, you know, a lot of time with people. And if I wasn't aware of that... and I remember not being aware of that in college. [00:28:26] 

 

And I remember, you know, somebody then coming up to me at the end of maybe a mission trip where I was with a bunch of people, and I was so annoyed by this person and I couldn't figure out why because I used to like them. Like at the beginning of the trip, I really liked them. But at the end of the trip, I just did not want to be around them. I just thought it was them or me or I didn't know. 

 

As I've gotten older, as I've learned more about how I'm made and what drains me and what fills me, I've learned, oh, I need some processing time. And if I don't have that, then I just kind of shut down. And if I had known that back then, maybe I wouldn't have been so rude to this person. 

 

Then now with my kids, if I get back from speaking somewhere, I know I need some processing time. And it allows me to say, oh, kids, I'm so excited to see you. Mom's going to go for a quick run or a quick walk or whatever. And I know that I need that time. So between seeing my kids or seeing people, I'm able to build that buffer and then my responses are so much more healthy and life-giving to myself and to other people. So it's been very helpful to me. [00:29:32] 

 

You asked ways that I've cultivated this. I think it's just taking different personality tests, being aware, and noticing, Oh, I'm really grumpy right now. Why am I really grumpy right now? Or, oh, I didn't like that. Why didn't I like that? 

 

So, you know, that can be journaling. That can be just noticing things. It can be taking personality tests. Sometimes I like making drainer filler lists on a piece of paper on one side. I just list all the things. What are the things that tend to drain me? And then on the other side, what are the things that tend to fill me up? And it's going to be different for everybody. But just being aware, I think, is the first step.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that's a really helpful tip so that listeners can know how to grow in their own way in this area. Can you also debunk the myth that this is narcissistic?

 

Kat Lee: I think honestly that that could even be a tool of the enemy to make people think, I don't need to understand how God made me. I don't need to understand the way that he designed me. [00:30:32] And then the less we know about ourselves... you know, it eliminates that buffer. I can't even imagine thinking that it's narcissistic. I think anything is only narcissistic when our ultimate goal is ourselves. 

 

So whatever it is, as long as our ultimate goal is to bring honor and glory to Jesus, then it's probably a good thing. And if our ultimate goal is to bring honor and glory to ourselves, then it's probably something that we need to get rid of. So I think that can be applied to all kinds of things that are both good and bad, and it just depends on the intent of our heart. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's well said. I was reading this morning in 1 Corinthians 12, and it first starts telling about how the Holy Spirit gives us gifts for the betterment of everyone, or to build everybody else up, basically. Specifically, in 1 Corinthians 12:27, in the Amplified version, I think it just summarizes what you're talking about. And it says, "Now you collectively are Christ's body, and individually you are members of it, each with his own special purpose and function." And I think you're just saying, discover that so that you can serve others and glorify God. [00:31:45] 

 

Kat Lee: Absolutely. You know, if I went back to that football analogy, if a kicker went out onto the field and was just like, well, I want to be a right tackle, the quarterback is going to get sacked every single time. You know, they're not going to be some big tackle person. If they took the time to evaluate themselves and their gifts and their likes and dislikes, they might like tackling people, but maybe that's not exactly what they need to be doing. And so, you know, if they're evaluating, Oh, I can really kick the ball really far, then they realize their right place on the team, and then it allows the whole team to thrive. I think that's kind of where narcissism comes in. 

 

If we aren't evaluating ourselves, and, you know, how God made us, then we might just do the things that we kind of think are cool instead of understanding our place and where God put us and the people that he put around us. And I think taking the time to do this just allows everyone to thrive around us as well. 

 

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So if people do want to grow in this area, you've mentioned even like that filler drainer list, but can you think of any other questions that we can start asking ourselves or maybe ask others to help grow in general awareness? 

 

Kat Lee: Yeah. I think thinking through how we process emotions is important. When I get angry, how am I processing that? When I feel stressed, how am I processing that? Or am I even taking the time to process that? Or am I just kind of flowing through life and then I have this boiling cauldron of emotion underneath me? 

 

There's actually an app that I've really liked lately. It's called Flow State. And you can get it on your computer or on an iPad or whatever. Basically, what it does, you set a timer, it's usually like five minutes, and you just have to keep typing, and if you stop, it deletes everything you've written, which sounds terrifying, I know, to some people. [00:34:20] 

 

But I love it because it's been a great way for me to just journal and process my emotions without thinking through anything too much. I know some people do this... I forget the name of the book, but this woman recommends writing warning pages, where you write, I think it's maybe three pages, and then you throw it away. 

 

I just think even that process of just writing whatever's coming to your brain, whatever you're feeling, whatever you're thinking, getting it all out there can be a great way to just even start some self-awareness as well. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great place to get started. And even in your book on page 51, you have journal spaces to answer questions like, which activities did I look forward to? Or, which activities left me with more energy for the rest of my day? Which activities drained me? So, some very practical questions. But I think your book is a tool that can also help people grow in this general awareness. 

 

Kat Lee: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a bunch of resources in that chapter, just personality test links and that sort of thing. And again, lots of questions and journaling space so that, you know, they can think through how God made them and the things that maybe they haven't even considered before and can shed so much light on how they respond to things and maybe give them that buffer for how they truly want to respond to life. [00:35:36] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, you've definitely inspired us today, Kat, and you just have a way of guiding us clearly with ways to begin this journey for ourselves. And I'm excited to hear from listeners how this improves their lives and what changes they implement after hearing your ideas. 

 

So if anybody wants further accountability, where can listeners connect with you online? 

 

Kat Lee: Sure. They can go to hellomornings.org. That'll connect them to our podcast, to our online academy, to our social media accounts, and all that stuff. 

 

Laura Dugger: Awesome. Okay, we'll link to all of that in our show notes and on our "Resources" tab on our website. I have one final question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So Kat, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Kat Lee: The thing that I'm loving right now is doing things in batches. This is super practical, but I'm realizing that I love it. I've learned that I don't love making lunch every day or cooking dinners every night. I like sometimes to rely on my past self, if that makes sense. [00:36:44] 

 

So, you know, maybe one Saturday I'll make a whole bunch of breakfast burritos, or I'll cook something in the crock pot and then put it into containers and put them in the freezer. And I feel like it just helps me on days when I feel like everything is falling apart, that I'm like, Oh wait, I already made dinner. I'm awesome. You know, it's just like that extra encouragement that, okay, I haven't lost everything. I still have some stuff together. I can put a meal on the table. Nobody needs to know. Not that I'm trying to trick anybody, but it feels to everybody like it was this great home-cooked meal when really I just pulled it out of the freezer and reheated it and put it in a nice bowl. 

 

So just doing stuff like that in batches, whether it's cooking, whether it's work, and writing a whole bunch or recording a whole bunch at one time, I think I've learned about my personality. And this might be true for some listeners as well, that kind of once you're in the flow of doing one thing, it can be so helpful just to do a whole bunch of it, and then you don't have to think about it for a while. So that's the current thing that's been a blessing to me. [00:37:44] 

 

Laura Dugger: That is a great savvy sauce. Kat, I just love your gentle approach. And thank you for spending time with us and giving us so many practical tips to implement into our own lives. 

 

Kat Lee: Aw, thanks so much for having me, Laura. It's really been a pleasure. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:38:44] 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:39:49] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:40:50] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

56 Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

56. Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 5:18 NIV “May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.” 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness.  Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma’s Website 

 

Kids Night In Faith Boxes

 

The Power of a Positive No by William Ury

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse.

 

To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma joins us today to discuss desire, frequency, and conflict related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Dr. Mike is a certified sex therapist and an ordained minister, so I hope you enjoy his unique perspective on these important topics.

 

He was my professor in graduate school, and I have always admired his work. I hope you feel the same way after hearing our chat today. [00:01:22]

 

Welcome, Dr. Michael Sytsma.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. 

 

Laura Dugger: We're so excited to have you. For anyone who has not met you yet, can you just share a little bit about yourself? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, so background-wise, I'm a pastor. I've pastored for a number of years. I'm a professional counselor. I'm a certified sex therapist.

 

Today, I run Building Intimate Marriages, which is a marriage ministry. We do marriage counseling, a lot of affair recovery, sex therapy, working with high-conflict couples, and then also working with premarital and couples that just really want to enrich their marriage. 

 

I also do workshops, seminars, and speak in churches, mainly around the subject of marriage and sexuality.

 

Laura Dugger: Great. And you were one of my professors in graduate school, and so I've been a beneficiary of all of your work. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you. 

 

Laura Dugger: We're actually recording today in your office and just walking in, it's such a calm place. So I hope that people who are local here to Atlanta will get to experience this someday. [00:02:25] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks. 

 

Laura Dugger: To lay our foundation, why is a healthy, God-honoring sex life with your spouse even important?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think it's important for a number of different reasons. One is what it does in tying a couple together, the bonding, the binding that it has for the relationship. So a couple will come in and sit down in my office, and they'll say, "You know, we've got a good marriage, but we feel like we've kind of fallen into roommate mode or brother-sister mode." Pretty much can guarantee that the sexual part of their relationship, the physical intimacy, is what's dropped off, because that's what keeps the chemicals floating around in our system that helps to kind of tie us together. It makes that relationship totally unique from any other relationship. 

 

I can be in a roommate situation and deeply care for my roommate and deeply care for who they are and the relationship that we have. I can be in a business partnership and really work well on accomplishing something. [00:03:27] But we don't have the physical relationship. So adding that into the marriage, we do really well in our finances or we do really well in parenting. As business partners, we're good. Adding the sexual piece into it is what makes it a very unique relationship and helps to tie that couple together. 

 

Laura Dugger: From a biblical perspective, is there any scripture that's especially important to you related to this topic? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, there are a lot of them that, to me, are really important in the topic. In following the last question, thinking about how important is it, it would just be that God said to the married couple to drink deeply, to enjoy it, to celebrate it.

 

All of scripture is really focused on a married couple celebrating their physical intimacy, celebrating the intimacy that they have, allowing them to reflect who God is in His intimacy and His desire for us. Many times through scripture, He talks about Himself as being the groom, and the church or the nation of Israel being the bride, and how He pursues them and how He wants them to be open and to draw Him into them. The language that He uses is very longing and very celebratory. [00:04:44] 

 

Then He sets up boundaries to protect the sacredness of it. Sometimes we get stuck on the boundaries as we start to talk about sex. And really, scripture is about celebrating the intimacy and the oneness and the coming together.

 

So I think the, you know, drink deeply, enjoy. May you always celebrate and enjoy the life of your youth, He says. I think the passages that just say this is good and rich.

 

Laura Dugger: That's great. For the general population, what is some helpful sex education that you believe we're not being taught?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I don't think we're being taught really well that sex is about both the physical and the spiritual of who we are. Whether you're faith-based or not, there's still a spiritual aspect of who we are. And there's a strong physical component to it. 

 

It's easy for us to think about sex as being just about the physical. And it very much is our bodies are designed uniquely to enjoy the physical aspect of it. Just how the nerves are set up in our genitals, how the nerves are set up in the rest of our body, we're designed to enjoy, to celebrate the physical aspect of it. But that's only a part of what sexuality is. [00:06:00] 

 

If we keep it fully focused on the physical, then when couples get older and the physical stops working really well, then couples kind of get stuck. Where if it's about both the body and the spirit of it, and we learn how to deeply emotionally connect with each other, we learn how to relationally connect with each other, and we use the sexual vehicle as a way to enrich the emotional and the relational connection, now we've got a whole unit. We're not just the physical, and we're not just the spiritual. We're bringing both of them together into it. I don't think we're taught that well. 

 

And so what we find is couples getting older or couples running into physical illnesses or couples running into different life kind of crises where the physical gets removed for them. A woman going through breast cancer and they've robbed all of her estrogen and that's having an impact on her body or the guy going through prostate surgery or just a couple naturally getting older if it's been about the physical, they often don't know how to keep that part alive.[00:07:11] 

 

One of my clients is 74 and he sat across from me and he said, "I'm having the best sex of my life." He said, "At 74, I can't believe it, but I am truly having the best sex of my life." He said, "To be honest, at 74 my body doesn't always play long robot, and hers doesn't either." But he said, "That's really okay. It's great when the physical works, but even when it doesn't, I am still having the best sex in my life." I don't think we teach people well how to have sex that's not tied to our bodies, to use our bodies as a part of it. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And if somebody, this is their first time hearing that idea, how would you recommend they start now tying in the spiritual part of sexuality? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think part of it is them sitting at a coffee table and just talking about it with each other. How do we bring the spiritual aspect of it in? Because sometimes that is truly where it begins anyways. [00:08:13] 

 

You know, kind of the stereotype is a husband walking in, 80% of the time the husband's going to be the higher drive person in a marriage, and he walks in and he says, you're really cute, can we? And her instinct is, after you've touched my heart, after you've spent time with me, after you've cared for me. Well, that's the spiritual aspect of it that she's inviting him into. 

 

And if he can step into it, what would help her to soften? What would help her to feel truly cared for and enriched? And what would help him to feel like his heart was cared for? That's kind of where it starts. And then if they can bring that piece into the bedroom, where they're looking deep into each other, where they're just really enjoying each other, that'll bring the spiritual, that relational aspect in. And it's not just focused on body parts and technique. The focus on body parts and technique is not wrong, we just don't want it to be only about that. 

 

Laura Dugger: Sure. You're saying that there's more likely a heavy focus on that in culture? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I believe so, yeah. It's not very often that we watch a movie where there's a sex scene and it's about the heart of it. [00:09:20] You know, it's just about the physical of it, typically. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well said. What other areas in marriage affect a couple's experience in the bedroom, both positively and negatively? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Because sexuality is so much at the core of who we are and at the core of a marriage, I don't think we could identify a part of the relationship that's not tied to sexuality. 

 

Money, for example. You know, the top two argument starters for couples are money and sex, because money and sex are the commodities of marriage. They're in limited supply. And so we get into power struggles over how do we use them and who gets to choose how we use them. So money definitely ties into it. 

 

Kids. Are we honoring each other in it? Are we working as a unit? And if we feel like there's division or you're not supporting me, that plays into the sex life, because are you supporting me, are you listening to me, are you caring for me in my sex life? 

 

In-laws. If we go into how work plays in and it steals our time away, or you're putting more focus into work than you are me. I don't think we can come up with a part of relationship that doesn't affect our sex life. [00:10:31]  

 

And that's part of what we see as sex therapists is the couple's sexual life becomes a barometer for the rest of their relationship. And if the sex life is going good, usually the rest of their relationship is going pretty good. They may have some areas of struggle, pretty much every couple has a couple of areas of struggle, but overall, their relationship's going well. 

 

If their sex life's not going good, it tends to be corrosive and tear apart the rest of the relationship. And if the relationship's going poorly, it tends to be corrosive and tear apart the sexual relationship. We don't see that as much for money or parenting. It can encroach and erode at those. But it's going to encroach and erode upon the physical sexual relationship. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's break it down a little bit with each of those topics that you talked about. Let's start with money. You said that's similar. So how can a couple improve their sex life through their management of money as the topic, maybe if that's the one that they always argue about? [00:11:39] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: So what does it take to have great financial responsibility? Couples will play that out a little bit differently. But generally, the couple needs to have a common vision. Here's who we want to be as a couple financially. We want to have the newest, coolest car every other year. Or we don't give a flip about our vehicles, they're just tools. We're saving up so that our kids can get doctorates at Ivy League schools. We want to be able to pay for that. Or, no, our kids will manage their own education. We want a house on the beach. Or we just want to live simply and we want to have a huge retirement fund. All of those are fine things to do. The couple needs to have a shared vision. 

 

Well, similarly in a sex life, what is the shared vision? What does sex mean to us? And what does it look like for us to have a good sex life? Then we have to figure out whose roles are whose. Only rarely do I see it work really well that both pay the bills. Somebody needs to have the responsibility of just doing the dirty work of paying the bills. 

 

Quite often, one spouse enjoys that. They like the detail work of figuring it all out. One likes to be able to track the budget. One likes doing the investments. In our family, Karen does a really good job of managing the day-to-day finances. They drive me insane, and I don't want to deal with that level of detail. [00:13:08] 

 

But when it comes to investments, that's scary for her. She says, "I don't understand it, don't want to understand it," and so she hands it off to me. Well, that's fun for me. So we kind of figure out what the roles are. 

 

Similarly, in a sex life, a couple needs to figure out whose role is who. Who's the one who does the primary initiation? Who kind of plans this? And who does what during the sexual act? When a couple's talking about it and they plan it out and they make it intentional, it tends to work much better. 

 

Couples who aren't talking about their finances and aren't intentional about it, it gets out of control. Similarly for the sex life. And what we find is all the way along the line, the skills that we learn in one arena tend to play into and affect the sexual relationship. Does that kind of make sense? 

 

Laura Dugger: That is very clear. What would be some conversation starters if a couple never has had a conversation about who is the primary initiator or what other sex roles they're playing? What are some ideas you have if they want to talk about this tonight with their spouse? [00:14:17] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Actually, I think diving straight into it may be a little bit dangerous for some couples. If a couple is really good at talking to each other about the difficult subjects, they may be able to dive into it. If they have a hard time talking about whatever the other difficult subjects in their marriage are, so if they have a hard time talking about parenting, they may have a hard time talking about the intimate arenas of their sex life. And they would want to go work on just improving their communication first. And that would be the first thing that they would do. 

 

And they could just sit down and start talking through a story from childhood or teenage years or a movie that they saw that talked about sexuality and what they liked about it. So we're kind of talking a little bit more distant than our relationship. 

 

I actually have a handout on my website, in the Try This at Home section, that couples can use to guide them through that early types of conversation. [00:15:19] When they get ready to go deeper with it, I think the first question to ask each other is, what do we want it to look like? If I could craft our sexual relationship five years from now to be what I think is realistic, not ideal, but we really could achieve this, what would it look like? What would the frequency be? Who would initiate and how often? And what would we do? How long would foreplay last? What would the time after? When we're cuddling in bed together, what would that look like?

 

And just start to craft a vision for what would they like their sex life to look like. I think that's probably the first place. 

 

Couples have to do that with curiosity. We're wired very differently as men and women, even though there's a lot of overlap. Often we'll talk about there being more variance within the gender than between, but there's still some difference. And to be curious. "Really? You're wired like that? That's what you want? Well, that's really strange to me. Help me to understand it more." So rather than looking at our spouse and saying, You need to be like me and you need to want what I want, being curious about what they want and just sitting down and leaning into it. If a couple can talk well, I think that's a great way to start. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great grace-filled response as well, just being curious with your spouse, not condescending, not judgmental. [00:16:48] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Not critical, yeah. "There's something wrong in you" doesn't work. "Wait, you're a smart person. I know you love me. Help me to understand that because that makes no sense to me." That will keep the conversation moving forward. 

 

Laura Dugger: So communication, I'm hearing you say, is crucial. That's a beginning place. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah. Our research on healthy sexuality and sex that works really well in marriage regularly comes back to the couple's ability to communicate about it. What we find couples coming into our office is generally they have not talked about it. 

 

So I look at them and I start asking questions of, well, how frequently would you like to have sex? What would you feel good about? Which is a very different question from, you know, how often do you get horny? We try to come up with good, biblical, holy ways to say horny and we can't. So "how often do you get horny?" is a very different question from how often would you like to have sex. And just getting them talking through to those questions. [00:17:48] 

 

Laura Dugger: Anything else that you would add? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: One of the research studies said that couples who communicate really well, they get to know what each other wants and they're able to serve each other much better. But they're also able to speak up when this doesn't feel good or I don't want to go forward. And I can allow you to be disappointed that I don't want to move forward, but I have to be able to speak up about it. I have to be able to talk with you about it. And I have to be able to ask for what I want in this process. That ability to communicate at that level is really central to having a truly healthy sex life. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's really important what you're saying there, because I think that something maybe subtly being taught or expected is that the lower desiring spouse, maybe they should never say no, your body is belonging to your spouse. And that scripture can be misused. What's your take on that? [00:18:51] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: So my buddy and I had keys to each other's houses. And if I needed a tool, I'd go borrow his. If he needed a tool, he'd just come into my house and use it. I totally trusted him and it made things much easier. We both tilled our gardens every year. I have since learned that's probably not the best thing to do, but that's what we did. 

 

He went out and bought a brand new tiller because we rent it. And he says, "Come take a look." And I went over and I'm looking at his tiller and it's just gorgeous. And I said, "So do I get to use it?" And he said, "No." I'm like, "What do you mean?" "No." He said, "For this first year, if you put any scratches on it, I will really resent you. At the end of this first year, I'll have it all scratched up and I won't care if you put scratches on it, then I want you to use it. But for the first year, no, you're going to have to rent one this year." 

 

And I so appreciated him protecting the friendship, him protecting the trust that we had in each other by saying, "If you do this, it's going to do a wound to the relationship." And his ability to say no made his "yes" far more powerful. [00:20:02] 

 

I really cringe any time I hear a well-meaning person say that you should never say no to your spouse sexually. I think that does so much damage in the relationship. I want my wife to say yes to me.  If she can't say no, I never know when she's saying yes. 

 

William Ury talks in his book, The Power of a Positive No, of how important defining our yes is. But when we clearly have our yes defined, no gets much easier. And if a couple is pursuing a healthy sexual intimacy, any time it doesn't feel like you're pursuing me for some healthy reason or a reason I can get on board with, we need to be able to say no to protect our marriage, to protect the relationship, to protect how I see you. 

 

Now, if our no is punitive, "No, you hurt me yesterday and I'm going to punish you by saying no, that's not okay. If we're always got the brakes on, then something's wrong that needs to be explored. But if it's truly the, "I am so sorry, I am tired tonight, I didn't reserve energy for you," I think we need to be able to say no. [00:21:11] Then project a time that I will have energy for you because I want us to have a healthy sexual relationship. 

 

But if I can't say no, I can't protect the marriage, I can't protect the friendship, I can't protect how I honor you, and I can't protect our sexuality. Scripture says to honor the marriage bed and keep it sacred. And the language there is don't do anything that would rob it of force and vigor, would rob it of life. 

 

And I think sometimes saying no actually protects the life force of a sexual relationship. I radically disagree with anybody who says you should never say no. I think the no's become really important in protecting it. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's great to hear. Thank you for sharing that. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and, if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. [00:22:19] 

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. 

 

During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. And through the end of 2019, you can use the code SAVVY at checkout to receive $100 off your weekend retreat. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's say that a married couple used to experience more spark. What are some ways that they can begin to reignite their love connection? [00:23:30] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: So I love that Christ actually gives us the answer to that question. He is identifying himself as the groom in Revelation, and He's talking to his bride. And He's talking at one point to the church at Sardis, so his bride, and he says, "Man, I am so appreciative you've stayed committed to me. You've persevered. You stuck out your commitment even when it was really difficult to do so, even when there was a cost in doing so." So basically he's saying, Well done for staying committed. We're married, and you've hung in there, even when it was tough.

 

But then he says, "But I hold this against you. You have forsaken that first love. You've given up on the passion of love that we had to start with." And I hear so many couples come in and saying that. Okay, we're still married, but we've lost that passionate love. Where did it go, and how do we get it back? 

 

And Christ looks at his bride, and he says, "Remember the heights from which you've fallen. Repent, and go do those things again." [00:24:36] So the recipe He gives us is quite simple. Remember, repent, and do.  Remember what you did to fall in love with each other. 

 

So I was sitting across from a couple, and they were complaining about kind of falling out of love. And I'm listening to their story, and I said, "I'm really curious. How did you guys fall in love?" And they're like, "We just fell in love." "Yeah, but what did you do? What were you doing when you fell in love?" And the spark comes into their eyes, and they start talking about hiking together. And that's how they met. And all through dating life, they spent a lot of time hiking and they enjoyed. He says, "See, I used to enjoy following her up the hill." And he said, "We'd be playful, and we loved finding the trails that we wanted to go on and planning it out."

 

And just watching them talking about it, it's like they came alive a little bit. And I said, "When's the last time you guys went hiking?" And the energy in the room drops a bit, and they sit there for a few seconds, and he said, "Wow, I don't think we've been hiking since before we got married." That somehow during their dating life, that was a central part of them being in love with each other. [00:25:42] 

 

But from the moment of the wedding on they've been so busy building a home and building a career and carving out a space in the world for their family that they've not been doing those things that caused them to fall in love with each other. 

 

I think Christ is looking and saying, Remember what you did to fall in love and remember what you did when you were in that early love relationship. You wasted a lot of time together. You pursued each other. You talked all the time to each other. All of those things that you did to fall in love. 

 

And he says, Repent. You've not been doing it. You need to turn things around. You've gotten distracted into doing other well-meaning things but you've stopped doing the things that helped you to fall in love. You stopped pursuing each other. You stopped hiking. Go back and do those things again. So his third step is do them. Go back and do those things again. [00:26:37] 

 

Usually when couples start to really unpack how did we fall in love? What were our attitudes? What were our stances? What were the behaviors, the activities that we did that helped me to go, Oh, I really like you. This kind of person I could spend the rest of my life with and enjoy it. Repent that you've gotten out of the habit of doing those and go back and do them again. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. What are a few common questions both males and females ask during sex therapy? And then what are some of your responses from that point forward? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: The most common question is what we do normal. Am I normal? Am I okay? That changes a little bit depending on the individual, obviously, and the issue that's bringing them into therapy. But probably the most common question is is our level of desire normal? 80% of the time the husband is a higher drive individual and 20% of the time the wife is a higher-drive individual. [00:27:38] 

 

So it shifts up a little bit depending on who the high drive is. But they'll often come in and say is our desire normal? And the low-desire person will often say I don't have any desire. Is that normal? Is it okay? I feel like I'm broken. And my first statement to them is, Why are you in my office? And they're like, Well, because I don't have any desire. But what are you hoping for in being in my office? Well, I want to have the desire for sex. But that's desire. That you want to want is wanting.

 

Often they diminish the type of desire, the type of want that they have. The only desire that's legitimate is the kind of desire I had when I was 16 and horning all the time. Well, I'm sorry, you've got three little kids now. That is not normal to have that. There are some people that have that type of desire. But for most women, especially with little kids at home, they no longer have that type of desire. [00:28:37] 

 

And so what's normal is, Man, I'd really like to want and I choose to move forward, and I hope for the day that I do. Well, that's normal. So helping them to embrace where they're at as normal. Guys asking, you know, How long is too long? Or how long is not enough? Or what frequency is normal is one of the more common, normal kind of questions. 

 

And for that one, it's helping couples to sort through, Well, what would be normal for them? Because I have couples in my office that have sex once a day and really enjoy it. And I have couples that have sex once every four to six weeks and really enjoy it. And both are normal, healthy couples. So what's normal for them? What do they want it to be? What would they be proud of? 

 

I think the second question that I get is, Can we? Can we do this as a couple? Does this work as couples? Again, some of it's going to be very individualized. As a couple sorts through what do they want their relationship to look like, what are their own personal preferences, what helps their heart to feel cared for, what has meaning from their background and tradition, my task is to help them unpack what it means to them. [00:29:49] 

 

But a couple who is really good at communication and is curious about each other can do that on their own. Where if she says, "I don't enjoy that position," really? But I really like that position. Okay, if he moves into a, you have to like what I like, you have to do what I want, they start to tear at the relationship. But if he can say, well, what don't you like about it? Help me to understand, they may be able to problem solve a way that it works. 

 

Or she might go, you know, I'm not saying I don't ever want to do it. You know, every once in a while, I'll do it as a gift to you. But just know that's not a lot of pleasure for me. The pleasure for me is watching you enjoy it. And he has to be okay with that. If they're really talking about it, they can unpack for themselves, is this okay for us to do or not do?

 

Laura Dugger: That's good. That's very helpful to hear. 

 

Some of you have reached out to find specific books or resources that we have mentioned in one of our episodes. That's why I'm so excited to let you know about our new "Resources" tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can now click on our new tab called Resources. There you will find all the resources we've ever mentioned on all the episodes of The Savvy Sauce. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you actually support our work at The Savvy Sauce. 

 

We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode, so you can still access the websites, scripture, and recommended resources when you click on any individual episode. We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned. [00:31:24] 

 

What about a more serious question? For someone who's experienced trauma, what hope do you have to offer them? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I guess two levels of it. One would be just from a scientific therapeutic theory technique, we're getting really good at helping people who have wounds in various areas of their life, especially in the sexual arena, to learn how to heal that and to reclaim those parts of their life. 

 

At a second level, as a Christian therapist, as a pastor, my God is really powerful in His healing ability. He can take the worst trash pits and make them the most gorgeous rose gardens. I love watching in my office as couples truly step in. They lean into it and they decide, you know what, I'm not going to allow the trauma to have control over this part of my relationship. I'm not going to allow the trauma to have control over this part of my life. I'm not going to allow what somebody did to me maybe decades ago, but years ago or months ago to control me today and to take away something that is rich and precious. [00:32:36] 

 

We might not always be able to get rid of all the scars, but we can learn, even with a wound, to really reclaim our arm or our leg or some part of our body that's been traumatized and learn how to work well with it anyways. That's no different for the sexual part of our relationship. There may be a scar there, but that doesn't have to fully limit my ability to truly drink it in, to enjoy it, and to reclaim our sexuality is something that I share with my spouse and it becomes rich and good. 

 

So the invitation would be don't let what happened to you in the past control you today. Get some help and get it with somebody who truly knows what they're doing to step in and find some healing and restoration. 

 

Laura Dugger: It's so good. And I can't imagine the person listening right now that says, that's me and you just gave me hope. So thank you for that. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: And that's critical if you have hope all the way through it. And when it dips, it's okay. Climb back in and keep working on it because it is difficult. [00:33:48] Wounds to the sexual part of our relationship are intense wounds. So sometimes they take a very long time to heal. 

 

Laura Dugger: But if they have somebody in their area, somebody like you that's been trained in this, that is gentle and will help work with them, that would be incredible. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh, it makes a world of difference. Yes. Having a guide and a cheerleader really helps. 

 

Laura Dugger: Now speaking more about the general population, what's one thing that each spouse can do today to improve their intimate connection? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think what I'd invite, because our sexuality is so much of what happens between us, you know, it is about pursuing what's good for me and what's good for you, but it's also what's good between us, is I'd invite them to do something together. 

 

What I'd invite them to do together is pick a good book on marital sexuality. I have some listed on my website that I highly recommend, but there's just a lot of really good ones out there. My only caution is to choose somebody who's truly trained in sexuality. [00:34:54] Lots of people are writing books on sex because it makes a lot of money. They're filled with a lot of inaccuracies. Choosing somebody who's been trained on sexuality and has written on it, and then sit down and read it out loud to each other. 

 

So pick a time that the kids aren't going to be around or they can be alone and just open up the book and take turns reading. The goal is not to get to the end of the book. The goal is to read a paragraph or two and pause and say, so what do you think? I think this guy's crazy. Nobody thinks that way. Nobody likes that. What do you mean you like that? And just really use it to start a conversation. 

 

Because sex is a form of communication, stepping back and communicating about it, developing a language that they can use with each other, sorting through what they do and don't like, is often done easier with a guide. So use the book as the guide to talk about what do we like, what don't we like, what is our vision for sexuality. [00:35:58] 

 

You know, if they can't find time to sit down and read a book and talk about it, they don't have time to have good sex, so they may have to problem-solve the time. If every time they sit down to read a book together, one of them is falling asleep, well, then we may need to problem-solve the sleep crisis in our marriage. Because if we don't solve that, we can't have good sex. If every time we sit down to read, the kids are climbing in, okay, we need to problem-solve that. 

 

Whatever they run into is going to illustrate the problem that they're likely running into in their sexual relationship. So not only are they learning, not only are they communicating, they're also problem-solving the process. I think it's a quick, simple, but very powerful exercise.

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We will definitely link to your website in the show notes. But could you just say what that website is?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. IntimateMarriage.org. And most of the things I've talked about are under the Try This at Home section. And there's just several things that we invite couples to try at home, but it's IntimateMarriage.org. [00:36:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: And will you just share with all of us how you can help any listener grow further in this area of sexual intimacy? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: In terms of those that are in the area, of course, we have about eight different therapists that work out of our office that are all trained in this. Outside of our area, we do workshops, seminars. And so if they join our email list, they'll learn when I'm coming into an area. 

 

The Passionate Intimacy Workshop is a Friday evening, all day Saturday, and it's a sexual enrichment for Christian couples. So they come in and we talk through the spiritual principles and we help couples to grow in this arena. 

 

The most common thing I hear as couples come out of it is, we're normal, we're okay. And they come out with a vision that's workable and nobody feels broken and nobody feels beaten up or braided. It's designed to truly help them to grow. [00:37:54] 

 

If they want, all of that's available as a downloadable workshop too. So the links are on our website and they can go purchase the workshop and download the printed materials and the exercises and just sit in the safety, security and comfort of their own home and work through the teaching. I love that because they can pause it at any time they want and talk about it. But those are available for couples that just really want to focus in and work on this part of their marriage relationship. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's great. So if you're local to Atlanta, Georgia, you're very blessed and you could schedule an appointment with Dr. Michael Sytsma. But also, it sounds like you've got something for everybody if they want to grow. Plenty of resources available. 

 

Well, as we're wrapping up today, we are called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge or discernment, and we would love to hear some of your insight from your own life to inspire us with our own action item. So, Dr. Mike, as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:38:58] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: For me, it's stay curious. We have different stances that we can take in life. We have a critical stance. We have a defensive stance. We have that father type of a stance or boss type of a stance. What does it take to stay curious, to be open, to hearing somebody else's story and somebody else's heart, and to truly deeply care for them?

 

I think we have to stay curious. It's always leaning in and really tell me more about that. How do you think that way? How does that work for you? If we stay curious, it helps us to love well, it helps others to feel nurtured and cared for. It's a richer way to live when you stay in a curious state. 

 

Laura Dugger: Great words of wisdom to end our show today. Thank you again for the years of service you've put in. This is such an important topic, and I love your approach and your patience and your gentle presence. And I just want to say thank you for joining us today.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks, Laura. [00:39:56] 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:41:01] 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:42:02] 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:43:00] 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

55 Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Author, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers

55. Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Author, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 27:17 (NIV) “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.” 

 

Corie Weathers is a wife, mother, licensed professional counselor, speaker, consultant and author of Sacred Spaces: My Journey to the Heart of Military Marriage. In 2015, Corie was named the 2015 Armed Forces Insurance Military Spouse of the Year® where she advocated for mental health issues and served as a media correspondent. Today, Corie continues to encourage others through her inspirational blog and podcast. She also serves as an Ambassador for the Chris Kyle Frog Foundation serving military and first responder families and volunteers with the Red Cross training mental health professionals to be more culturally competent in their work with military and first responders.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.comand affiliated sites. 

 

Corie’s Website

Lifegiver Blog 

Lifegiver Podcast

Sacred Spaces: My Journey to the Heart of Military Marriage by Corie Weathers

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products, but cost you only $49.99, visit them at FabFitFun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box. 

 

Today we're bringing back Corie Weathers. She is a wife, mother, licensed professional counselor, author, and podcaster, and she's previously been named Military Spouse of the Year. We're going to learn more about her journey and hear some surprising ways to bridge the gap between civilians and military families. 

 

I apologize for my cold today, and I hope that it does not distract you from this great interview with Corie Weathers. 

 

Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Corie. 

 

Corie Weathers: Thanks for having me, Laura. [00:01:19] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, it's such an honor to have you join us today. Can you just start us off by providing a little bit of your backstory? 

 

Corie Weathers: Yeah, absolutely. So I am a licensed professional counselor. It's something that I've always wanted to do and to work with marriages has always been a huge dream of mine. What I did not anticipate was that I would be doing that for the military community and the first responder community. 

 

My husband and I met in college, and we thought we were going to go more so into the ministry or go into the academic field of teaching college-level courses and all of that. Then one day my husband came and said he wanted to be an Army chaplain, which completely threw me. And it took me about a year to get on board. But once we got on board together on that it has completely altered our life. 

 

We are full-blown in the ministry of really serving military and veteran. My work has also expanded to first responders. So he is an army chaplain, active duty. We're currently in South Carolina. He is an instructor where he actually trains up chaplains. [00:02:22] 

 

So if you can imagine taking your local pastor and put a uniform on them and take them out into the woods and throw grenades at them, that's kind of what my husband gets to do. I'm sure it's a lot more work than just that. But that's where we are right now. 

 

I know we're going to get into this a little bit more later, but it's been a roller coaster ride of fun. And it is just my joy. My goal, honestly, is to breathe life into military and first responder families because of it being such a lifestyle of stress. That's the fastest way that I can give you a background. 

 

Laura Dugger: For anybody who hasn't used that term frequently, who are you specifically talking about when you say first responders? 

 

Corie Weathers: It's very interesting. You know, we really had been focusing for about the last 10 years on just military families because my husband being a chaplain, you know, we're assigned to anywhere between 400, sometimes, you know, even up to a thousand families at once. So it's not your typical role, like a pastor of a church kind of role. [00:03:24] A chaplain's role is very unique. 

 

My husband's family comes from a long line of police officers, and so we've always kind of had a passion for first responders. I found recently that when we say first responders, we include police officers, SWAT teams, firefighters, EMS workers, paramedics. Anybody that responds to a crisis on the civilian local level in their communities is what we call first responders. 

 

So we found so many similarities between what our first responders' experience of life and marriage is like compared to military. Bringing those two together has been a really easy, seamless kind of work, if that makes sense. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, definitely. That is so interesting to hear the parallels between the two. In 2015, you were named Military Spouse of the Year. So how has your life changed since winning that title? 

 

Corie Weathers: Believe it or not, when we first got into the military, our first assignment, our first initiation into the military culture was quite intense. [00:04:27] We didn't know that at the time. We thought that it was just kind of the normal Army experience. But our first deployment was very intense where we lost a lot of our soldiers, did a lot of work within that community, worked with a lot of what we call Gold Star families, which is basically a family who's lost their service members. 

 

So part of my role was to deliver support and kind of sit with that family when they first received their news of losing their soldier. A lot of that work leading up to 2015 was really focused on really pouring into this community in a very intense way. 

 

My husband actually came across a tweet one day, we kind of joke at each other and say, Wow, it's amazing what a little tweet can do. But he came across a tweet that said, Nominate your spouse for Military Spouse of the Year. And he thought at the time, you know, Corie's done a lot of work and she deserves a really great pat on the back and a certificate. 

 

So he nominated me for Military Spouse of the Year. We had no idea what that really meant. The general population, including civilians and military, vote on these different military spouses who've done really amazing things. [00:05:36] 

 

So I went on to win Military Spouse of the Year for my installation, our post, our Army post. And then from there, I was voted and kind of won this Army Spouse of the Year. And then that led up to one major event in Washington, D.C., where the winner of each branch, so we had Army, Marines, Coast Guard, National Guard, Air Force, I think I hit all that, and Navy. So the six of us all come together and they announce the overall Military Spouse of the Year for that year at a big ceremony in Washington, D.C. And so in 2015, I was given that name, the 2015 Military Spouse of the Year. 

 

As far as how my life has changed, it has changed drastically. It felt like falling from the sky without a parachute. A lot of military spouses really serve in the shadows and in the background, and we kind of are chameleons. Wherever we go, it's how can we serve and who do you need me to be. [00:06:35] 

 

Military Spouse of the Year really put me in the spotlight. I mean, the next morning after winning that award, I was on the Today Show sitting next to Hoda and Kathie Lee and having a conversation with them about the military world, and so many other things. You know, opportunities to speak to other military families across the nation, speak with a lot of our higher ranking officials in D.C. about the military culture and how we can make it better. 

 

But ultimately, I will say the biggest part of my year was the Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter at the time... Now the Secretary of Defense is who we nickname him Mad Dog. I don't think he likes that, but Mad Dog Mattis is our current Secretary of Defense. But before that was Ashton Carter. He took me along with him on his holiday tour to visit troops overseas to allow me to see deployment conditions. 

 

They realized that they had never taken a military spouse that wasn't an employee of theirs in the office to see what it's like actually overseas in deployment. [00:07:38] Like we always have kind of these snapshot pictures, just like every American does. You know, we see on the news, the welcome home ceremonies. We see, you know, our soldiers, you know, with their picture taken in front of some mountains or in the sand or whatever. And that's our only understanding of deployment. 

 

So, over the course of about seven days or so, I visited Turkey, two places in Iraq, Afghanistan, and then was on two different aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf, which really allowed me to see all of our branches working together—Navy, Marines, Air Force, Army—all at once for the causes that we're fighting overseas on. And so it was a truly remarkable experience that literally changed my life. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, I can't even imagine. I'm sure it was surreal on some level. 

 

Corie Weathers: It was absolutely surreal. 

 

Laura Dugger: But now you've lived on two very different sides. You've both served at home while your husband traveled and then, like you said, you experienced this season of travel for yourself. So what did you learn from being in both of those roles? [00:08:43] 

 

Corie Weathers: It was truly a remarkable experience because I think even if you're not in the military, all of us have this kind of the grass is greener on the other side. And it's really easy for us to, whether we look across the street at our neighbor and say, wow, I wish I had a little piece of their life or even looking at our spouse's experience. 

 

And I know even as a stay-at-home mom, I have been in that situation where my kids were young and there was part of me that was like, I just want to get out of this house and do something fun. And I see my husband going off to work every day, and gee, that looks amazing, right? 

 

And so I think as a military spouse, also having been through deployment, of course, I wasn't necessarily wanting to experience war and I wasn't necessarily wanting to go on a vacation to Afghanistan. But there was a part of me that really kind of wanted to do something exciting, that really wanted to experience my potential and my purpose. [00:09:40] And I'm wondering if I was going to find that outside of what I was presently doing at the time. 

 

And so I think this whole experience, the Military Spouse of the Year experience, the trip with Ashton Carter, and even some of the other experiences that I've had, I got to go to Japan and work with spouses there, and I think that what it really taught me was that there are times when God opens up definitely a circle of influence.  And I think that that happens in seasons. 

 

I can look back now when I was raising toddlers and say to myself, I wish that I could give myself or gift myself really patience. I was so rushed and so anxious to see something else, do something else. It doesn't mean I didn't love my kids and enjoy what I was doing. 

 

But I think that most people listening can relate that, you know, no matter what you're presently working on, you're always wanting that next thing. [00:10:33] Like when you're in school, I can't wait till I'm out of school.  When I'm out of school, I can't wait till, you know, people in this field actually listen to me, right? Or that I have something to give back or, you know, wherever you are in that season. 

 

And so I think for me it did a couple of things. I think, one, it slowed my heart down to make me realize that as much as I even still love the opportunities that I get to travel and speak with different groups of people, and I know now that my gifting that God has called me to is in teaching and speaking, that when I'm there, I want to be home. And when I'm home, there's always a part of me that wants to be able to do something outside of the house too. And so I think it helped me realize that I could have both and I could be content with both. 

 

Definitely after that season of 2016 of traveling as much as I did helped me really embrace. Honestly, if I were to be honest with you, Laura, it was a tough season for us. We felt that we were being obedient to do what we are being called to do and what I was being called to do. But it asked a lot of my husband to have a full-time job and kind of hold down the home front while Corie was all over the world. [00:11:40] 

 

It really brought me back to my first calling, which is my marriage and my family. That all these other exciting things were fun and great, but if I did them to the destruction of myself and my family, then none of it was worth it, and it definitely is not a true calling. 

 

And so I think one of the biggest things that I learned was to understand and relate to my husband and have empathy for him, not just for deployments because it definitely gave me perspective on that, but it also gave me perspective on what it's like for him as a husband even to be working a full-time job all the time, having to miss the things that he has to miss. 

 

And that he doesn't really, at least in our home, doesn't really have as much of a choice as I do. That I can kind of slow down at any point and kind of rebalance my priorities and come back home and really give my best at home. But that's, you know, a place where I can have empathy for him. But my first calling has to be to my marriage and my family. [00:12:40] 

 

I think that experiencing that other side made me realize what we all hear is true, but really to experience the truth of the grass isn't necessarily always greener on the other side. Wherever we are, it's our responsibility to grow green grass there, if that makes any sense. 

 

Laura Dugger: That definitely does. I think there's so much wisdom. Many of our listeners are moms, both working and stay at home. Do you have any further encouragement or just wisdom you want to share from what you learned? What would you want to speak to them right now? 

 

Corie Weathers: My boys are now 11 and 14. And I really as a mentor and as kind of up from a mothering perspective to some of the listeners who might be just beginning their families and their babies and toddlers, I'm definitely not going to be that person that says, enjoy it while you can, and it goes so fast. 

 

Because I remember that there are seasons where you are getting thrown up on and pooped on and there are days that you haven't slept for weeks. And so it is a tough season. It really is. And I want to acknowledge that it is a tough season. And that's okay that it's a tough season. [00:13:50] 

 

So I think my encouragement to those that are in that season right now is to be graceful with yourself, be merciful. There is some level of enjoying it. And I think I will say from the perspective of if you find that you have a longing for this thing that you want to do in the future, that that is normal and it's natural and it's not a bad thing to want that. It doesn't make you a bad mom for you to, you know, love raising kids, but also kind of have this kind of stirring on the inside of something that has an additional purpose to your world. 

 

But I think that I would just want to kind of like the way that I would gift myself back then, I think I was very unsettled. And because I'm a professional counselor, I had been through that schooling, I think I thought that taking this break to raise my kids was somehow going to leave me behind in a career or in my purpose somehow. I think I would tell other people that it's not. You're not going to be behind. 

 

That what you're learning on a daily basis, the character stretching, the depth that you're going to have to who you are is only going to add to whatever it is that you're going to do in the future. [00:14:57] So you are not wasting time. 

 

And that whatever gifts and talents God has given you, apply those to your parenting, apply those to your marriage, apply those to your family, and it will, like a snowball effect, expand your influence later. It will be all part of the tapestry, the puzzle, however you want to see that to just relax and enjoy where you are right now and that it's a good place. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is incredible truth. You've just been given such an incredible platform. What message are you most passionate about communicating to the masses? 

 

Corie Weathers: Ooh, that's a good question. You know, I questioned myself on this almost on a daily basis and I'll tell you why. I wish I had the direct quote, but I heard Beth Moore one time, you know, she's a very famous, successful Christian speaker, especially in women's ministry. She said during a talk one time that heaven forbid she ever be called to marriage ministry. And that if she ever felt prompted to go into marriage ministry that she would wait until the last 10 seconds of her life when she's on her deathbed. And that in that last 10 seconds, then she would say, Yes, Lord, I'll do marriage ministry. Then she could die. [00:16:10] 

 

Her reason behind saying that is because it is tough. You know, whatever it is that you do, whatever you're passionate about, you get attacked from all levels and that you're really challenged and you are really stretched in that area. And so my current platform is marriage. 

 

And it doesn't mean that being single that there's not a calling to that. There is definitely a calling to that. And that is a whole other calling of how you're stretched and shaped and finding your purpose in that. And that is a wonderful place. 

 

My current platform is really on marriage because the military and first responder, and there's other communities that have high levels of stress as well, but that community has so many challenges that would rip a couple apart. Deployment, separations, high levels of stress and trauma, and all of that, that I really believe that in order to keep generation strong and to have a strong family tree, that I want to see these marriages stay together. [00:17:12] 

 

Then I really do believe that marriage sharpens individuals like an iron sharpens iron kind of thing, and that we're better people when we're in relationships with people. And so even if there's somebody that's single that's listening to this right now, you know what that's like too. There are certain friendships that sharpen you, that challenge you. There are certain relationships, even with your family members that challenge you. 

 

And so there's something about being in relationship with another person that it really puts a mirror in front of us and we have to address selfishness in our life, we have to become better people. And to me, marriage is part of what brings up future generations that really want their marriages to succeed too. And so that is my current platform. And I ask myself on a daily basis, why am I doing that? 

 

Laura Dugger: But we're so glad you are. It's helping so many. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

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Laura Dugger: You've mentioned that one of your gifts is teaching. So will you just teach us how military families in America are both unique and similar to civilian families? 

 

Corie Weathers: Yeah, that's such a big question, and I'll try to keep that concise because that could be our whole conversation. But I will say military families, we're humans too, and we are just like civilian families as well. So, you know, we still have life issues, family issues, similar arguments in marriage, similar challenges.  You know, we experience America together with you, right? We watch the news. We experience so many things on a daily basis that are the same. 

 

I would say there are some big differences though too, and there is what we call a military-civilian divide.  Now, I don't necessarily think that one side or the other creates and maintains that divide. I think it's just an experience of not understanding because we don't know what it's like. [00:20:30] 

 

For example, I have no idea what it's like to live in one house my whole life or much less one town. And there's a lot of civilians that move a lot as well, and so they can relate to the military lifestyle in that. Civilians, I hear from civilians that they say, I can barely get through watching our kids by myself for two days if my husband is gone, much less thinking about how to do that for an entire year.

 

So there are some big differences. For a lot of our active-duty military families, they move or relocate on average about every two to three years unless they're like a special forces type of community where sometimes they can kind of stay put. But most active-duty military families move every two to three years, and that can be especially challenging. 

 

We have to find new friends. There is no such thing as a church home. I have no idea what that must be like to be in relationship with the same people for years and years, in the same small group even for years and years, and to develop and shape and sharpen ourselves in those relationships and serve the same community year after year. [00:21:37] And so that really sets us apart. 

 

And I think because of that, military families tend to be very intense. And so if I were to kind of give you what's the biggest difference that civilians might see from military families, the big takeaway that I would want to tell civilians as you kind of find yourself in contact with a military family is that military families are very intense. And that's why we personally love doing ministry with them because they're intense and they're raw and they're gritty and they're very real. There is no mask, really. There is no pretense. 

 

And the reason for that is because we come into a community and we need friends quickly. I need to know where my support system is quickly. And once I identify who that support system is, we're going to start relying on each other very quickly because within a year, we're going to be talking about moving again. 

 

So to give you an example, I am looking out my window right now across the street. I'm in a civilian neighborhood. We live off post, off the installation for this current assignment. And when I look to my right, I see one neighbor's house that I have not even met them yet. We've been living here since December. [00:22:42] 

 

On the left, there's another neighbor that just moved in and I happened to see the truck pull up with all of their goods and I noticed that on the truck were crates, which signaled to me that's a military family. I immediately went over there and within 20 minutes, I knew their name, all the places that they had been assigned to. I knew their rules in their house. I knew their kids' names. I had already offered to buy them groceries. 

 

And I know within an hour of meeting that person, if they are going to be a support system for me and whether they are going to use me as a support system, whether or not I trust my kids to go in their house. She could text me any second and say, Hey, I need help with a gallon of milk and I'm right on top of it. 

 

So I think that civilians can kind of meet military families and feel like it's really intense and maybe a little bit much too quick. Because I read an article that said in the civilian community, it takes about 20 hours to claim somebody as an acquaintance and about, I think it was 200 hours with somebody before we would call them friends. That blew my mind because in the military community, we don't have time for that. We have to, in order to survive and find our support systems, we have to move much faster. [00:23:56] 

 

And so I think we kind of get a wall with civilians when they're like, wow, that's too much, too soon. I don't know how to handle that. And that's where I think we feel a little bit of that divide. So it is two different kinds of cultures. The military community, it's almost like... as a chaplain family, at least, it's like we're doing missionary work with an African tribe in America. So it's almost like a tribe within a tribe, all in one country, if that makes sense. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. And there's so many cultural things to break down there that's so interesting. Just a little bit of our story. My husband and I are both civilians, have never been a part of the military, but we've moved nine times in nine years of marriage. And we are drawn to other couples and families that are transient as well because they'll go deep fast. 

 

Corie Weathers: Yes

 

Laura Dugger: So that's really interesting to hear your take on it.

 

Corie Weathers: You know, I think that that is the one thing that I try to convey to both sides is that there doesn't have to be a military-civilian divide because I think that there are so many civilians that understand the military lifestyle. [00:25:02] It's just part of the conversations. And so being able to say, Oh my goodness, I've moved a lot too. I totally know what that's like and being able to reach out to those military families that you know, that you identify with. 

 

And even if you've stayed put in one place, if you are near a military installation or especially if you're not near a military installation, there are still active military families in your community that are National Guard and Reserve, that they do stay put in your communities, but they still feel different and they still don't have that support network. 

 

And so being able to reach out to some of those families to be able to go, Hey, do you need a church to go to? Do you need support or whatever? Or just, I'm curious about your life and what that's like for you guys to be both civilians in the civilian world and yet still military. Starting those conversations can go a long way to bridge that gap. 

 

Laura Dugger: What are some of the sacrifices military families make, which we as civilians may be unaware of? [00:26:01] 

 

Corie Weathers: I think there's a lot of basic sacrifices that I think Americans do understand. I think everybody loves a good soldier coming home story. And that's one place that I think that we feel really loved by the American community. We like weep openly as well when we see one of those soldiers welcome home, surprise his kid at school, welcome back things of videos or whatever. And the fact that America loves to see those stories as well makes a huge difference. 

 

So I think as far as the quiet sacrifices, I would definitely say for our active duty community, for sure, I can't even stress to you how difficult it can be to live that transient lifestyle and not have a church home, to not have that solid, stable community. And so it's a huge sacrifice that our military spouses and their children make. 

 

Just to give you an example, for some reason, the Weathers family, we have been moving on average every year and a half for the past five years. [00:27:02] So we haven't even been able to stay put for more than two years. In our current place, we will move 18 months. So it'll be a year and a half. And we are moving to Kansas where we're only going to be there for a year and then they'll move us again. 

 

That is a huge sacrifice to ask children to go through. It all comes down to the calling. We get a lot of people that say, well, why do you do it if it's so hard? Then why stay in? But that would be like asking a family to stop doing what they love to do and what they're built to do and what they are content doing simply because life is hard. 

 

And so asking your kids... so for example, my son is going into ninth grade and he's been in eight schools already. Same thing for my younger son, who's going into sixth grade, has been in five schools. So when my son graduated elementary school, he graduated with honors, with great, wonderful grades, and I loved what my husband wrote in a card as kind of like a congratulation card he gave him on graduation day. Because I know they're doing these big things now where you have to do this huge graduation just for elementary school. I'm not really sure why. It's crazy. 

 

But he put in the card, "You think that you are graduating from this one elementary school today, but make no mistake, you're graduating with honors from five elementary schools. You're not only in the top of your class from this school. This is you being at the top of your class compared to five schools and hundreds of kids." [00:28:31] And being able to point that out to a military kid to go, You've been through a lot. You've sacrificed a lot. Your hard work is noticed. I think that would be some of the sacrifices. 

 

I think if there's one more that I could point out, especially if you live near a military community, an installation, you just never know where somebody is at. When your spouse is deployed and you're months and months into single parenting, you just feel like you're an exposed nerve that's walking around. And if you just happen to see a mom with her kids, especially if they're small kids and she's by herself, you just never know if they're going through a deployment where they're at.

 

Because I remember there were times that just somebody saying, how's your day going? That I just burst into tears. Because it was like, somebody actually asked me how I was doing? Or because those emotions are so right under the surface, just one little prick brings out a lot. And so you just never know what that single mom that you see in your community is actually going through and what they may actually be sacrificing. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's just humbling to hear the sacrifices. 

 

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Should we as civilians be aware of any wrongful assumptions that we make or even hurtful questions that we unintentionally ask? 

 

Corie Weathers: You know, I thank you for asking that question because we don't get asked that question a lot. I actually did an interview with, his name is Chaplain Timothy Mallard. He's a subject matter expert in moral and soul injury. And he brought up something that I definitely related to where He said, sometimes the civilian-military divide widens when civilians come up to military and say the generic, "Thank you for your service". 

 

That's so hard for me to say because I think every civilian who comes up to a military member and says that has complete, genuine, positive things in mind when they're doing that. [00:30:59] They're genuinely thanking them. Otherwise, they wouldn't be coming up to us and saying it. So I definitely wouldn't want civilians to go, well, if that's how they feel, I'm not going to say anything at all. 

 

I think that what widens that misunderstanding or the feeling of misunderstanding is, and this is going to sound harsh and I'm just going to kind of be honest, is just that if that's all you know to say, then it does come across as very general. I don't know what else to say so I'll just say that. 

 

And so my encouragement to those that are listening that maybe don't have much connection to the military is, by all means, definitely thank those military members or family members that you come across. But I would just encourage you to maybe say something a little bit more than just thank you. 

 

So for example, the other day we were out to dinner and this one older couple came up to us and struck up a conversation and I knew it was kind of leading to the "thank you for your service". But instead, he actually said that he was prior service and he understood our lifestyle and he just wanted to say thank you for what we are going through every day. [00:32:03] 

 

So being able to actually put it into your own words and say, it's okay for civilians to even say, I have no idea what it's like for you guys to live this lifestyle, but I've heard that you sacrifice a lot and that matters to me, and so I just want to say thank you. That's so much better than thank you for your service. 

 

I think other assumptions that we often hear, kind of going back to the question that I mentioned before, when people go, well, if it's so hard, then just get out. A lot of family members, if you have service members that are in your family that are serving and you hear those sacrifices, they come home at Christmas and they're talking about it, I hear from a lot of military families that that's one of their biggest pet peeves is family members will say, well, if it's so tough, just get out. Like, why don't you just get out? 

 

Well, part of it is we've signed on for a certain period of time. It might be four years, it could be 10 years, or maybe somebody loves this so much that they're in it for the long haul and are going for retirement at 20 or even 30 years. And so in a lot of ways, you can't just pull the plug and say, I quit. [00:33:02] You've made a commitment and it's something that you have to finish. 

 

A lot of the military members, though, too, especially special forces, but all of us have deep values in common. So loyalty, respect, responsibility, integrity. And so just quitting when life gets tough... you know, you don't want your service members quitting on a mission when it's tough. So it's really ingrained in us that in the tough stuff is where the fight is. And even for family members, where the fight is, is a mission that we're going to push through. 

 

So it's not within our culture to quit things. We don't quit during a deployment. We don't quit on our day. We don't quit in our kids when life is hard. We dig deep and we push through. And that's what I think makes us a really strong and very connected culture. So it's easy to say, if it's tough, then just leave it or just come back home to your hometown. But so many military families have seen so much of the world and seen so many different kinds of communities that they have a very difficult time coming back even to their hometown and feeling like they fit in because they've changed so much since then. [00:34:12] 

 

Laura, I think one other question that I think is obvious that I think would be helpful to say is there's always the few people that, out of curiosity, ask the question, especially to a service member, have you ever killed anyone? I know that that seems obvious, like something that you shouldn't ask, but I think just in case there's somebody listening that finds themselves curious, that is definitely never an appropriate question to ask and definitely widens that gap even further. 

 

That is not something that our service members enjoy, not something that they keep notches on their belt of how many times they've been through that. And for many of them, it is a traumatic experience to have to pull that trigger. But they do it because they love their battle buddy next to them, because they love their family, and because they love you and they don't want terrorists or other organizations threatening our country and making you feel less safe. 

 

And so that is a sacrifice that they make to their psyche even for our country. And so asking that question, you will never get a good answer from a service member who's been asked that. [00:35:15] 

 

Laura Dugger: That is so helpful to have such a candid response. And I think hopefully this conversation can help in a small way bridge some of that gap. 

 

Corie Weathers: I hope so. 

 

Laura Dugger: And you've alluded to this a little bit, but sometimes coming across very generic, I understand that could create more of a divide. But is there a tangible or helpful way that we can express gratitude? 

 

Corie Weathers: Yeah. I'm smiling that you're asking this question because there's been several times that my husband and I have been out to dinner and having a date night, and then it comes time for the bill and somebody has covered our meal. And we have no clue who did it, but just somebody in the restaurant knew that we were a military couple and paid for our dinner. 

 

I mean, tears coming to my eyes, just even that gift, because those are those moments that you feel deeply seen and that somebody said, You know, they look like they're on a date night. I don't even understand what their marriage has probably been through, so I'm just going to cover their dinner or I'm going to send them a dessert or something and not even take credit for it and not even interrupt whatever it is that they're talking about or going through or their evening. [00:36:23] I know my husband has had that experience several times just out to lunch for a meeting or just even by himself if he's been out to lunch and that's happened. 

 

I think one that you may not hear very often is finding out maybe an installation or someplace where you can find some connections where there is a deployment going on. And so many people want to send care packages to service members, and that's always something that's a great idea to do. 

 

And if you're going to do that, kind of thinking outside the box, not always sending candy, because a lot of our service members really need to stay in shape, and they're really trying to do that overseas. But, you know, sending them things that are comforts of home, not home-baked goods necessarily, but things that they can't easily get overseas. And even asking them, what do you need? And then supply that is always a good idea. 

 

But something that people rarely do is send care packages to the spouse at home. Because she is so busy, focused on sending care packages to her husband, taking care of the kids. [00:37:22] Military spouses very rarely know how to take care of themselves or do a good job taking care of themselves because they are really the glue that holds the whole family together. 

 

And so a huge gift is civilians getting together and saying, let's support the military spouses that are going through deployment. How can we gift them? And it can be anything from sending care packages to them. I know there was one church that set up some people within the church that could do oil changes for cars and then invited military spouses to bring their cars and have their oil changed. 

 

Or, you know, finding out who those spouses are if they live off an installation and offering to mow their grass for them. I mean, can you imagine your spouse is gone for an entire year and you have toddlers and you have to figure out how to mow your grass? So just little things like that that serve that family, believe it or not, is the best way that you can support that community. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's really helpful to have these specific examples. You've written a book which is titled Sacred Spaces: My Journey to the Heart of Military Marriage. Can you just share more about your experiences leading up to the decision to write this book? [00:38:33] 

 

Corie Weathers: I never intended actually on writing a book. It came out of my trip with Ashton Carter when I was going overseas. The original goal during that trip was for me to convey back home to as many military families as possible what I was experiencing as if they were there with me. 

 

And so during the trip, I was doing these very raw YouTube videos expressing all the emotions and all of the sensory things that I was experiencing on a daily basis to somehow give them something different than maybe their soldier had given them in the past. And how it was changing me because service members are trained up to do this, but it's different for a spouse to just impromptu go over. 

 

I was also writing these blogs that would kind of go with each day, but I very quickly was realizing I was taking in so much information and learning so much so fast that I could not contain it in a YouTube video or a blog. So much of that trip was changing me and changing my marriage and how I saw my husband and how I understood how he had come home different after that first deployment, that that's where it turned into a book. [00:39:41] 

 

I basically pulled it all together and sent it to the publisher and said, I don't know if you can make anything of this, but I think this is a book. To which their reply was, yes, get going. So the book actually was written in about a three-week span, which was almost like a Jackson Pollock crazy thing that I went through where I was in the basement writing in my office at the time and my husband's shoveling coffee to me constantly for about nine hours every day for about three weeks because I just felt this compulsion to get it out. 

 

But it really is a story of my experience on the trip. But it's also walking you through, as I'm going through this trip, kind of going back and thinking about my husband being on this deployment and how our marriage was changed, how I was changed, how he was changed, and how when he came home, there was such a gap even between us and our relationship because he had experienced things that I had never understood. 

 

There was no way I could, in my mind, regardless of how well he could tell the story, I couldn't be with him in Afghanistan. I couldn't experience the things that he had experienced. [00:40:46] And when he came home, I was different too. When he left, I didn't think that I could even take the kids to McDonald's without the kids throwing temper tantrums and me completely falling apart. 

 

By the time he came home, I had wrestled life into submission and had everything on lockdown. And so he came home to a completely different person too. Really, this trip opened my eyes to what changed in my husband, and it really allowed me to see the ugliness of myself and really realizing that some of the things that he had told me, such as that he felt like he had come home to an angry wife, which I had argued for years. I wasn't angry. I just was more independent. 

 

But really on this trip, things started to wake up within me where I realized, No, I actually think that I've been harboring a lot of resentment that life had gotten difficult. And I think every civilian can even relate to this as well. Sometimes you just hope that life is going to be awesome, and your marriage is going to be awesome, and the kids are going to be easy, and there's not going to be medical issues, and there's not going to be trauma, and there's not going to be family drama. [00:41:50] And then life happens. Illnesses happen. Disappointments happen. And it's so easy to find yourself with a river of resentment that starts going through, that's ripping you apart from those you love. 

 

And so this book is really about what changed in me because of this trip. And it's really a challenge to every person reading this book on what it means to reclaim and restore your marriage. 

 

Laura Dugger: And you are such a gifted writer and just fascinating to listen to. So if listeners want to follow up, where can they find you online? 

 

Corie Weathers: Yeah. So I actually have two websites. If you want to find out more about me, my website is Corie Weathers, just my name. It's C-O-R-R-I-E and then like the weather outside with an S. So corrieweathers.com. 

 

Then as an extension, I have the LifeGiver podcast, the LifeGiver app, and all kinds of resources. And that is also on life-giver.org is where you can find all of that as well. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We'll link to those websites and your book in our show notes. Our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:43:06] 

 

Corie Weathers: You know, I have to say, especially since I work with military families, it is know yourself and know what you need to do each day to be the best you. You are no good if you don't take care of yourself before you take care of other people. It's kind of that idea on the plane of put the mask on yourself first. 

 

I see so many people every day serving other people and sacrificing so much for other people at the destruction of themselves. So to me, what's most important is really all about know what you need each day, know how to communicate that each day, and be your own advocate to make sure that you are well. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so helpful. I've really enjoyed our chat, so thanks for joining us today, Corie. 

 

Corie Weathers: Thank you, Laura. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:44:13] 

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:45:16] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:46:22] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

54 Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel

DISCLAIMER: This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears

 

54. Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel

 

**Transcription Below**

 

John 1:5 “The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel is the Director of Clinical Services at Gateway Woods Family Services, a faith-based human services organization with locations in Indiana and Illinois. Dr. Waibel oversees the residential program located in Leo, IN, which provides residential treatment to at-risk teens with addictions, trauma, and behavioral and mental health challenges. He also supervises Home Based Services at Gateway Woods. Dr. Waibel serves on a number of state committees in Indiana, including the Psychotropic Medication Advisory Committee, the Anti-Trafficking Network, IARCA Residential and Home Based Work Groups, and the Indiana Coalition for Family Based Services. Dr. Waibel obtained his doctorate in Education from Indiana Wesleyan University, a Master’s degree in Education from Indiana Wesleyan University, a Master’s degree in Social Work from the University of Michigan, and a Bachelor of Science degree from Michigan State University. Dr. Waibel is a licensed social worker in Indiana.

 

For the past nine years, Dr. Waibel has also served as a bi-vocational pastor at the Apostolic Christian Church in Leo, IN. He and his wife Margo have been married for 15 years and have three children aged 11, 9, and 6. Dr. Waibel lives in Grabill, Indiana.

 

Gateway Woods

Polaris Project Map

Polaris Project

The National Human Trafficking Hotline Number: 1-888-373-7888

David Platt’s Sermon

Dr. Kanani Titchen’s Ted Talk

Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy

 

“Only the gospel can truly save you. The gospel doesn’t make bad people good; it makes dead people alive...the gospel is God’s acceptance of us based on what Christ has done, not on what we can do.” – Tchividjian, Tullian., Surprised by Grace: God’s Relentless Pursuit of Rebels (p.56)

 

Thanks to our sponsor, Sexual Wholeness

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: 

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:01] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

As a teacher or counselor, have you ever wished you could get more training on healthy sexuality or to have better skills in helping people deal with the sexual part of their lives? Sexual Wholeness is a Christian teaching organization desiring to help you accomplish this goal through classes and helpful resources. Visit them online at sexualwholeness.com. 

 

I'm honored to share this chat with Dr. Jeff Waibel, who is the Director of Clinical Services at Gateway Woods. He is a licensed social worker and lay pastor, and today he's going to share what he's learned about human trafficking over the years, and he will share his theology on trafficking. I hope you find this chat to be enlightening. [00:01:17] 

 

Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Jeff. 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Thank you. It's great to be here. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, can you just first start us off by telling us more about yourself? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Sure. I grew up in Michigan, northern Michigan. Went to college at Michigan State University, undergrad, graduate school at the University of Michigan. After that, I became a therapist in a residential treatment center for children ages typically 12 to 19 here in northern Indiana and I am still here. 

 

I've been here Gateway Woods which is this residential treatment center. I have been here for about 16 years now. Along the way I've gone back to school in Indiana Wesleyan University. I did another master's degree in a doctorate all to get us to this point where I'm the director of clinical services here Gateway Woods. 

 

Got married somewhere in there to a beautiful woman, Margo, about 15 years ago, and we have three kids, 11, 9, almost 10-year-old boy, and then a 6-year-old girl. [00:02:20] So life is full. Life is busy. 

 

Laura Dugger: When did you get involved working with people who have been trafficked? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: It's a really interesting thing. And this is the experience I think a lot of people have when they get into this population of human trafficking victims. You don't set out to do treatment for human trafficking victims. You kind of fall into it. You kind of find your way in there by accident. 

 

So here at Gateway we've been treating young people from mostly northern but really all over Indiana for over 40 years and we've always had some young people who have come to us and we knew that they had a background, perhaps a young lady who was coming out of prostitution of some sort or whatever. That was just kind of one of the things that would happen sometimes and we would treat them and whatever. 

 

We started kind of waking up to this idea that that is a human trafficking situation. As we went along, we realized, hey, we're treating these young ladies, typically young ladies, kind of like everybody else, but really, they don't respond to treatment in the same way. And so we started thinking about, is there more to this human trafficking thing? Is there more specialization that we should try to get at here in order to more effectively treat? [00:03:34] 

 

So that's kind of how we ended up here. Over the years, we have seen lots and lots of human trafficking victims, mostly coming out of the sex trade come through our doors. We get many many referrals for human trafficking victims every year. We're fairly small treatment facility. We only have about 32 beds so we'll have about 32 young people in a given moment. 

 

And so every year we get, I would say estimate , probably between 50 and 60 human trafficking referrals for young people who need that sort of treatment. So it's more than we can handle. And because we also treat drug and alcohol addiction, we also treat mental health issues and things like that, so this is just one very small piece of what we do. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and like you mentioned, it's not a really large urban population that you're dealing with. I think if we're in small towns, we would like to believe that this doesn't affect us. But just to lay the foundation for this talk, can you give us a good definition of human trafficking? [00:04:36] 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Sure. Yeah. I really like Homeland Security's definition. They have something called the Blue Campaign, which is all about human trafficking. Straight from the Homeland Security website, their definition of human trafficking is the best. I think it's short and it kind of describes this as human trafficking is modern-day slavery. It involves the use of force, fraud, or coercion to obtain some type of labor or commercial sex act. 

 

So you have to have these kind of components. You have to have forced fraud or coercion, one of those three, and then you have to have a benefit to the person who's doing the force prod or coercion of some sort of labor or commercial sex act. I think that's a great definition. 

 

So when you start thinking about all of the implications of that, we can start to put a lot of things kind of under that umbrella of what human trafficking is. I think one of the problems that we have, especially in the church, when we think of human trafficking, we think of typically something more along the lines of human smuggling, which is we're going to kidnap your kids and we're going to take them to a foreign country and put them to work in a mine. [00:05:40] I don't know what we think about. But that maybe is more along the lines of how we think of human trafficking. When really, in reality, the number one kind of human trafficking that happens right here in the US is sex trafficking. 

 

It's young ladies typically over the age of 18 but under the age of 25 who are coming out of broken homes or coming out of perhaps runaway situations, financially desperate, they get hooked up with some guy and he befriends them and starts providing for them and before they know it they're being prostituted. That's by far the most common form of human trafficking in this country. 

 

It happens with underage girls too. The statistics on that are heartbreaking and just staggering. You know, hundreds of thousands. They estimate hundreds of thousands of young girls under the age of 18 who are currently being trafficked right here in the U.S. It's really staggering. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's a really sobering number. You've mentioned it's in the U.S. [00:06:41] Where specifically is this occurring? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: This is another thing that people are kind of blown away by. If I could show you a picture of the United States, most people would assume, because they kind of confuse it with human smuggling, which is kind of a different thing, this whole kidnapping idea and dragging across the border. They assume that human trafficking is mostly along the border, so southern border with Mexico, for example. "Don't go to these border towns near Mexico, you might get kidnapped or whatever." It's not accurate, not in the slightest. 

 

If you go to the Polaris Group, and the Polaris Group is non-profit here in the U.S. and they track human trafficking cases across the country. They have a map that you can look at and they highlight major human trafficking areas in red, and then orange, and then yellow, and then green, and then blue is the least. 

 

If you look at the United States, the heaviest areas of human trafficking are in California, especially Southern California, on the East Coast, New York City, Boston, right down the East Coast, and in the Midwest. So it's Chicago, Detroit, Northern Indiana, right where we're at is kind of a major corridor for human trafficking. 

 

So if you go to that site and look at that map, if you live in the Midwest, it'll take your breath away because you're like, "I didn't think this was here. I thought this was somewhere else. I thought this was in border towns in Arizona or in Texas." And it's just not. It's right here in our own backyard. [00:08:06] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and we'll certainly link to that in our show notes in case this is the first time somebody's hearing about this. Another follow-up question with that. Who are some of the perpetrators? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Depending on how you define a perpetrator, most people when they ask, they're talking about the actual traffickers themselves. However, I do want to point out that the people who use trafficked girls, women, are also perpetrators. 

 

But if you're talking about the traffickers, typically we're talking about men, usually young men. So this is just really fresh in my mind. There was a story right here in Northeast Indiana, Northwest Ohio of a human trafficking ring that was broke up here in the last week. They put pictures of the traffickers on the story. I think there were six people all told who were arrested. They were young men and young women and who were basically getting young girls into the sex trade, befriending them, then providing for them, creating dependency, creating isolation, and then using them. It's a heartbreaking thing. But that's right here in Fort Wayne, Indiana. That's right here in Northwest Ohio, just in the last week. [00:09:21] 

 

The traffickers are maybe not what you'd expect. I don't know what you'd think, some clean-cut, good-looking young people who have somehow gotten into this. At least here in the States, that's typically what we're seeing. Obviously, there's also a lot of connections with organized crime as well, but not in this part of the country. That's more on the coast. 

 

Laura Dugger: And so there's nothing predictable or anything identifiable? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: No, there's not. Let me just say this too. This is a really heartbreaking reality of the human trafficking world, but a lot of trafficking is done by family members as well. We've seen that many, many times here in the young people that we've treated over the years. It's a mom, it's a father, it's an uncle who is in a desperate financial state or desperately addicted to drugs and needs money and essentially sells their children out for sex. It's heartbreaking, terrifying stuff. 

 

Laura Dugger: It really is such a dark topic. Do you have a biblical theology as it relates to human trafficking? [00:10:25] 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: One of the things I didn't tell you in my kind of little introduction of myself here was I'm also a pastor. I'm a lay pastor here in Northeast, Indiana. I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about this because I think one of the things that's so hard about talking about slavery, even modern-day slavery, for Christians, it's just this reality that the Bible also talks about slavery. And it maybe doesn't say exactly what we want it to say. 

 

So this is dangerous stuff to say that, you know, how would you rewrite the Bible? But I think in our modern world, what we would want the Bible to say is, slavery is evil, it is wrong, and it needs to be stopped. Anybody who does it is evil and wrong, etc. The Bible doesn't really say that. 

 

And so this is something that I think Christians, if they've spent any time thinking about it at all, and I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about it, it's something that they struggle with. So what I've tried to do, and maybe you've heard me talk somewhere on this topic, but one of the things that I try to do is to talk through biblical ideas around slavery, because it is such a sensitive topic, and it really rocks people's faith. [00:11:38] 

 

I'm going to give you some principles if that's okay. For your listeners out there who are part of the Church and they want to think through this, but at the same time, maybe they've heard from unbelievers or people who are atheistic or agnostic or critical of the Christian faith, you hear from people out there, and they say, well, the Bible supports slavery. How can you believe in a book like that? 

 

I'm going to try to just walk through some kind of high-level principles. And just for your listeners, just to think through this, I do absolutely think that slavery is a scourge. I think it is evil. It is not part of God's plan. But I do also want to engage with the biblical text as honestly as we can because the Bible does talk a lot about slavery. It kind of just assumes that slavery is part of the human condition since the fall. 

 

The first principle is the Bible regulates what a fallen world demands. So I'll give you just a couple examples of that. Divorce would be one, slavery would be another one. In the Old Testament, we had many instances of polygamy, men having many wives, multiple wives, even kings of Israel having hundreds of wives, like Solomon. [00:12:48] 

 

The Bible regulates what a fallen world demands. I don't think that we can look at God's heart and say divorce is something that He wants, or slavery is something that He wants, or polygamy is something that He wants. But the Bible does regulate it. 

 

That being said, the Bible does not demand what it regulates. So even though there are certain rules around divorce, both in the Old Testament law and in the New Testament, you know, Jesus and the Apostle Paul both talk about divorce as an example. It doesn't demand that people get divorced, but when they do, it does have rules around it. 

 

The Bible regulates what a fallen world demands, but it does not demand what it regulates. And kind of the big picture here is none of these things can be imagined in a sinless world. None of these things can be imagined that people would be doing these things like slavery, like prostitution, like any of these things in a fallen world. And so the Bible does regulate that. That kind of as the overarching principle. 

 

Let me just talk through a little bit about the Bible and how it approaches slavery. [00:13:51] So principle number one, God's view of humanity is singular and uncompromising. Genesis 1, it says God created man in His image. God created human beings in His image. Galatians 3, Paul says all humans are equal in their status before God. There's no Jew nor Gentile, Jew nor Greek, male or female, some of these categories that we have, all humans are equal in status before God. So God's view of humanity is singular and uncompromising. 

 

Also, God considers Himself the protector of the weak and powerless. That's in both Testaments, Old Testament, New Testament alike. Deuteronomy 10:18 would be a great verse to look up. And Luke 4:18, Jesus is kind of giving His mission statement. He's quoting from Isaiah, saying the Lord has appointed me to release the captives and all these types of things. And one of the things he talks about there is releasing people from captivity. 

 

Again, God's view of humanity is singular and uncompromising. [00:14:51] God really does expect His followers to be the same. He expects His followers to be protectors of the weak and the powerless. We find that in the Old Testament and New Testament alike again. 

 

Principle number one, God's view of humanity is singular and uncompromising. We are God's creation. We're made in His image. He cares deeply about us. 

 

Principle number two, the Bible, both Testaments, Old Testament and New Testament alike, forbids the forcible taking of slaves. Exodus 21, this is out of the old law, it says, "...whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him shall be put to death." Again, singular and uncompromising message from God about His value of the human race. 

 

First Timothy 1, Paul is talking to Timothy and he says, "Understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just, but for the lawless and the disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, and for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers for murderers, the sexually immoral men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine." If you caught that inside that list, he has enslavers, or in the older translations of the Bible, he says man-stealers. [00:16:05] 

 

That idea of forcible taking of people and putting them into bondage or slavery is something that God detests. But God also forbids the exploitation of the poor. Again, this is in Old Testament, New Testament alike. I love this verse out of Proverbs 14, "Whoever oppresses a poor man, insults his maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him." 

 

So if you oppress somebody who is poor, you are insulting that poor man's maker, meaning God Himself. So you oppress a poor man, you insult God. But if you're generous to the needy, you honor God. That's what the Proverbs says. 

 

So principle number one, God's view of humanity is singular and uncompromising. Principle number two, God absolutely forbids the forcible taking of slaves and exploitation of the poor. So therefore, when the Bible does talk about slavery, which it does a lot, the principal thing it's talking about is voluntary and economic slavery. [00:17:03] 

 

So you will find examples of that in the Bible where people are slaves. And sometimes you'll even find God's people making their enemies slaves. But again, a lot of times in warfare that was given to them as a choice, you know, do you want to be wiped out or would you become our slaves? And they voluntarily become slaves. It's not what we would want, it's not what we would expect to see in a sinless world, but in this fallen world that's something that happened. 

 

So, principle number one, God's view of humanity is singular and uncompromising. Principle number two, God forbids the forcible taking of slaves and the exploitation of the poor. 

 

Principle number three, the trajectory of the New Testament is away from slavery. Again, from Luke 4, Jesus' kind of mission statement, quoting Isaiah, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind. to set at liberty those who are oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." That's Luke 4:18 and 19. [00:18:06]  

 

Jesus said, "I'm here to set captives free." Then we have an entire book, an entire letter in the New Testament that is about slavery. It's one of the least, in my opinion, as a pastor, it's one of the least preached on books of the Bible. It's that little letter that Paul wrote to Philemon. That whole letter is about slavery. 

 

If you think about what's going on there, Paul is writing a letter to a brother in the Christian church, Philemon, an actual leader of the Colossian church, who also owns slaves. Again, this is one of those things that we kind of modern believers have a hard time wrapping our minds around, that there was a Christian leader in the first-century church who was also a slave owner. And the Apostle Paul wrote to him, and he wrote to him upon the occasion of returning his slave to him, Onesimus. That book kind of takes your breath away a little bit when you think about it. 

 

But listen to what Paul says right in the middle of that letter to Philemon. He says, "For this perhaps..." Speaking of Onesimus, the runaway slave that he's returning, he says, "For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, no longer as a bondservant but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me." [00:19:25] 

 

Paul is saying to Philemon, Look, you can't look at this guy the same way anymore, because while he was on the run from you, your slave became a believer in Jesus Christ, just like you, Philemon. So you can't take advantage of him any longer. You've got to think of him differently. He's no longer a slave. He's now your brother in Christ. And what does that mean for your relationship? 

 

And Paul says, "What it means, Philemon, is that Onesimus is now equal to me. We're all brothers now." And so he's setting this runaway slave in front of his owner... He's setting this runaway slave equal to himself. This is the Apostle Paul talking. 

 

Again, this is the idea. The trajectory of the New Testament is away from slavery. It's this idea that if we follow what God thinks about humankind we're going to think differently about the people around us. So that's principle number three. 

 

Final principle, principle number four, and then I'll be done and we can talk about it. But principle number four is that nobody is free. [00:20:27] This is one of those things in the Bible that I think is super clear, but we don't like to think about it, especially in this country. I think we got a lot of people who really want their rights. They want to demand their rights. They want to think of themselves as free agents. They want to think of themselves as self-determined or whatever. 

 

But Jesus was the opposite. Jesus wanted us to think of ourselves as slaves. So listen to what he tells His disciples in Mark chapter 10:43-44. He says, "But whoever would be great among you must be your servant. And whoever would be first among you must be slave of all." That's from the ESV. 

 

So Jesus wants us to think of ourselves as slaves. Jesus also thought of Himself as a slave. He says in Mark chapter 10, same passage, verse 45, next verse, he says, "For even the son of man came not to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many." Again, Jesus is using slave language here about being a servant, being a slave to all, giving His life as a ransom. He's talking about economic terms for His own life. [00:21:38]  

 

Peter, and this is my favorite verse on this topic, just to kind of reorient our thinking biblically around this topic of slavery and our rights and all of that. Peter says this, 1 Peter 2:16. This just blows my mind every time I read it. "Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God." 

 

So Peter's saying, Live as people who are free, but when you're free, never forget that you're a slave. I think that is the biblical idea. I think the biblical idea around slavery, and there is slavery in the Bible, I'm not going to sugarcoat that and there is horrible, evil stuff that the Bible records. I'm not going to say that that's not true. But the biblical idea about slavery is principally this, that everybody's a slave. 

 

So if you're a believer in Jesus Christ, if you've found your faith in His shed blood, then you are a slave to Christ. If you're not a believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible would say you're a slave to sin. In other words, everybody's a slave. There are no free people. [00:22:49] 

 

This is something that our modern world just does not like. Even believers sometimes, I know me, I'm that way, I don't like that idea. But the mantra of humanism is that every person deserves complete and utter freedom. Freedom to do what makes you feel good. Freedom to love who you want. Freedom to choose what to do with your own body or your pregnancy. Just frankly, these are not values that God shares. God doesn't want us to think of ourselves as free, primarily. He wants us to think of ourselves as belonging to Him, purchased possessions of God. 

 

So I think one of the reasons that the Bible uses slave language to describe the believer's life is because the Bible knew that slavery was always going to be a part of this fallen world. And so when I talk to people, especially skeptical people, about how the Bible deals with this topic of slavery, I try to very carefully kind of walk through some of these things saying, let's think about this now. Let's think about overall, what does the Bible talk about when it comes to slavery? Why does the Bible use so much slave language? [00:24:01] 

 

And I think it's because God wants us to remember that our rights, our view of our rights will always be in competition with the gospel. So if we as believers are thinking of ourselves as free and I can do what I want, we're not going to be super duper effective for the gospel. If we think of ourselves as slaves to Christ, we'll have the proper orientation.

 

Laura Dugger: So now, after digesting all of that, if we are a Jesus follower, what responsibility is ours after hearing a message like this? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: I think for me, in knowing what I know about the human trafficking business in this country, and by the way, I don't consider myself an expert. I don't know if there really are experts on human trafficking. It's such an underground thing. But for me, based on the little I know, this is such a complex problem that it's not going to be solved easily. 

 

If this issue could be solved by petitioning your legislator, writing your congressman, and making a law, then we would have done it already. But in fact, this stuff has been illegal for hundreds of years. This is not easily solved. It's so complex and it's so underground and it's so dark. I really think this is something that really only God can effectively fight. [00:25:21] 

 

I think as believers, the very first thing we do is we pray. We got to pray for people. We have to pray for the people who are victims. We have to pray for the people who are trafficking those victims. We have to pray for the people who are using those victims for their own pleasure. And we have to pray for the people who are out there on the streets trying to pull people out of that lifestyle, trying to convince them to come out, trying to convince them to go into treatment or whatever else. I think prayer really is key. I think it's first. 

 

Second, I think we have to teach. So we have to pray, we have to teach. And what we teach is the Gospel. I think the Gospel is the only hope for a social problem of this magnitude. I love this quote, it's from a guy whose name I can't pronounce, Tullian Tchividjian... Oh goodness, I can send it to you, you put it in your show notes. 

 

He says, "The Gospel doesn't make bad people good; it makes dead people alive. And I think that's what the Gospel does, and that's what really needs to happen here. So we have to teach the Gospel. We have to teach the Gospel to people who are on the demand side, you know, largely men who are caught up in sexual addiction and are using young women for their own pleasure. [00:26:37] We have to teach the Gospel to them. 

 

We have to teach the Gospel on the supply side, you know, to the young women themselves and to their traffickers. We have to figure out a way to teach the gospel. 

 

We also then have to teach God's view of humanity. We have to teach this singular and uncompromising view that God has for every human being that's ever walked. And we have to teach it... I always say, start with your own kids. Start with your Sunday school class, start with your close group of friends. 

 

We have to teach God's view of human worth and dignity, that every single human being is made in the image of God. And what does that do? It completely and radically changes the way that we think about people. How do you objectify somebody who's made in the image of God? How do you oppress somebody who's made in the image of God? How do you take financial gain from somebody's pain who's made in the image of God? So we have to teach God's view of human worth and dignity, and then, of course, I think we have to teach God's view of sexuality. 

 

Laura, this is something that I'm pretty strong on. Again, if you've heard me talk before, you know I get strong on this. But I think the Church, by and large, is not doing a great job of talking about sex. [00:27:48] I think there's lots of good reasons for that. We have our kids with us on Sunday morning. We don't necessarily think that's a super comfortable topic for a very diverse congregation or whatever. And I do get that. I'm in the ministry myself, so I think we've got to still figure it out. 

 

We have to figure out ways to talk about this, because I think there's just the numbers on sex addiction and all of these industries that feed the human trafficking problem. The numbers on it are staggering, so staggering, that we know it's in the church. We know that there are people in the church who are caught up in this stuff. We've got to start having those conversations as hard as it is.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that you've empowered us with some starting points, and that's really helpful. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Today another anonymous donor stepped up to pay the sponsorship fee and share a very important organization with you. It's called Sexual Wholeness. Wouldn't you get excited and want to know more if you heard of an organization whose mission statement was commissioning a network of Christian therapists and educators to revolutionize the church with God's truth about sexuality? [00:28:57] 

 

This Christian non-profit organization, Sexual Wholeness, has that as their mission, and they work to accomplish it through classes and video-based resources. The Institute for Sexual Wholeness provides graduate courses in sex therapy for licensed therapists. These classes are offered in a three-day weekend intensive format in Atlanta, Georgia. Taking these courses will not only increase your ability to deal with sexual issues, but it can also lead to a certification as a sex therapist through the American Board of Christian Sex Therapists. 

 

Sexual Wholeness also has the Christian Association of Sexual Educators, with video-based courses designed for church educators to facilitate in their local communities. Currently, there are three video-based courses: Dance of the Sexes on Single Sexuality, Covenant Lovers with Sexual Enrichment for Married Couples, and Heroes and Warriors for helping men with sexual integrity. 

 

In a sex-saturated culture, the church needs trained educators and therapists to cultivate God's truth about sexuality with the freedom and wholeness that it will produce. [00:30:02] 

 

Many of the guests on The Savvy Sauce have taken these courses and then they come back to share with us all of their findings. These continue to be some of our most popular episodes and they get shared around the world. We appreciate Sexual Wholeness and we hope that you'll visit their website to find out more, sexualwholeness.com. 

 

Laura Dugger: What are some identifying factors of someone being trafficked? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: That's a tough question, Laura. There's actually a number of different groups that we kind of need to talk about, at least briefly. So, first off, you have kind of what you might think of as the stereotypical adult trafficking victim. And if you go to the research, if you go to the statistics, the biggest group of people are ethnically hispanic, females, young adults. That's the single largest group. 

 

That's one answer to that is you would look for Hispanic or Asian females usually involved with escort services or massage parlors, that sort of thing, maybe don't speak English very well. Just in the last six months or so, I've done two different talks on this, one at a medical professionals conference and one at a dental professionals conference. [00:31:18] And what I told them was, you're already treating these people. You're already treating victims of human trafficking. You just don't know it yet. You haven't been recognizing them. 

 

In this group, in the adult group, what you're going to look for are young ladies, because they're almost all female, by the way, well over 80%. I'm forgetting the exact statistic here off the top of my head, but predominantly female, predominantly young. And they are going to be avoiding eye contact. They're going to be avoiding most social interaction. They're going to be dependent on another person. 

 

So if they come in for like a doctor's appointment or something, they're going to have usually a man or somebody with them who's directing them, telling them where to go and what to do. They are not going to be allowed to carry their own identification or money or anything like that. They're going to defer all decisions to this other person. There's maybe a general aura of fear or not looking like they're in control of their own life. 

 

That's kind of the stereotypical adult type of human trafficking victim. But there's a second part to that answer and that is what we work with primarily are adolescent girls. [00:32:31] This is a major problem in this country, that there are adolescent girls who are entering into human trafficking situations unwittingly, unknowingly, a lot of times through social media and those types of entry points. 

 

And they are not going to be that stereotypical thing that I just said. They're not going to necessarily be a minority. They may very well be Caucasian, White. They are going to feel like they're more in control because maybe they knowingly entered into this sort of a situation or relationship with a man. They think they're in control. They don't even think of themselves necessarily as a human trafficking victim, even though technically by law, by definition, they are. So those types of situations are harder to identify. 

 

And these are the young ladies who are, as I said to the dental professionals, they're sitting in your chair and you just think they're like any other teenage girl, except that they're not. Those are going to be a lot harder to identify. The way I talk to medical professionals is you just got to talk to them. You have to ask them lots of questions. [00:33:40] If they have unusual scars, unusual markings, unusual medical problems, or dental problems, ask them about them. And when you start getting evasive answers, those types of things, it's a lot easier to identify. 

 

Now, for you and me, Laura, the average person on the street, we're probably not going to see them or we're probably not going to identify them quickly unless you've really spent a lot of time kind of tuning in to what to look for. But it's generally going to be somebody who has a history of family problems. They have been in and out of the juvenile justice system or the child welfare system, whatever it's called in your state. And they usually had pretty disrupted childhood experiences. And so they're looking for situations where they can find control where they can find somebody to provide for them, those types of things. 

 

When you look at the adolescent side, those are the types of things I look for. Really marginalized girls, often who have run away, who have been approached, or maybe even sought out somebody that would protect them and provide for them, those types of situations. [00:34:49] 

 

But Frankly, Laura, this is one of the things that the church really struggles with, because the types of young people on the adolescent side of the human trafficking problem, the types of young people that are involved are exactly the types of young people that you tell your children not to spend time with. This is one of the difficult things for the church to kind of wrestle through, is that the victims are the exact wrong type of friends for your kids. That's why I'm saying you probably won't see a lot of them, maybe because we're going and running in the wrong circles. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And if we do happen to recognize something or identify someone who we believe is being trafficked, what can we do next? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: So this is, I think, a good exercise in knowing our limitations. You know, I generally suggest to people that it's not a good idea to try to play hero in these types of situations. [00:35:49] There's a lot of reasons for that. Human trafficking is against the law. It is a legal issue. And if you're going to hope to have the traffickers themselves prosecuted, there are legal courses of action that must be taken. 

 

What I generally tell people is, when in doubt, get advice. Call the human trafficking hotline. There's a great human trafficking hotline that's set up by the Polaris Project. It's 1-888-373-7888 and just talk to them. Talk to one of their phone consultants and kind of spell out what you're seeing, what the situation is, and get some advice. 

 

Ask them, "What should I do next? I think this is, but I'm not sure." Or maybe you actually know for sure that this situation is a human trafficking situation. You say, "This person even told me they're being trafficked. What do I do next?" Let them direct you. I think that's the safest course of action. That may eventually go into calling law enforcement. [00:36:49] 

 

If it's a child that's involved, I would say call the Department of Child Services. At least that's what it's called here in Indiana. In Illinois, I think it's DCFS. Every state has a different name for the Child Welfare Service. But there's usually some sort of a child abuse or neglect hotline or something that you can call. Sometimes there's even websites you can go to to report these sorts of things. 

 

But my first thought is get advice because very few people are experts on this. So a lot of times it's just good, like if you get a weird feeling from something and you're not entirely sure, call that National Human Trafficking Hotline and get advice. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, we will definitely link to that number in the show notes. I'm also curious, are there any industries that we're unaware of that actually may feed human trafficking? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Yeah. So this is an interesting question, an interesting thing to consider because, you know, we've talked about adult human trafficking, we've talked about adolescent human trafficking. But now we also have to talk about human trafficking across the world. [00:37:54] And what is our responsibility as citizens of the world to try to fight this on a global, international level? 

 

That's kind of another whole series of questions, right? Because all of a sudden, we're not so much talking about sex trafficking here in the United States. Now we're talking about labor trafficking in India, or in Africa, or in other places in the world. And that raises a whole nother list of ethical questions. 

 

So if you look at the research, what is human trafficking internationally across the world, you'll find that labor trafficking is the biggest form of human trafficking across the world. So for us, how do we benefit from that? Well, we benefit from it by buying cheap products. So I'll just kind of give you some things that maybe you hadn't thought of before. 

 

But how do we keep foreign agricultural products so cheap? How is it possible that we are able to get things that almost exclusively come from outside of our borders, things like coffee, things like chocolate, things like agricultural products that are not raised here, primarily not raised here, rice, those sorts of things? How do we get those things as cheaply as we do here in the United States? [00:39:15] Sometimes cheaper than they are sold for in the country that they were manufactured. How is that possible? One of the ways it's possible is through slave labor, even child slave labor. That is still happening in a lot of places. 

 

The good news here is there are ways to kind of try to dig into this. There are places online where you can go and try to support companies, support retailers who only sell slave-free products. So some big names out there have really taken a strong stance on this, some that you're probably really familiar with. Trader Joe's, for example, prides themselves on being slave-free; they don't want to have anything to do with this problem.

 

In a similar way... and Trader Joe's maybe not everybody's favorite place to go. Little bit on the cheaper end is Aldi. So Aldi and Trader Joe's are connected somehow, sister companies. Again, LDI tries very hard to make sure that all of their products are slave-free. That's one very simple thing we can do here in this country is vote with our pocketbook. You've probably heard that statement before. [00:40:27] 

 

Interestingly, on the chocolate side, this is just kind of an interesting little tidbit. Chocolate is one of those agricultural products that we almost exclusively buy from outside of our own borders. And it's kind of a big deal in the human trafficking circle. So if you go online and Google slave-free chocolate or whatever, you'll find lots and lots of hits. 

 

You know, Hershey, for example, is the number one chocolate seller, manufacturer here in the US. But less than 1% of their chocolate is verified slave-free. That doesn't mean that 99% of it is being harvested by people in human trafficking situations. It just means that they're not trying very hard to verify where their chocolate comes from. So that's kind of an interesting thing. 

 

Again, it's something that we don't think about. We don't think like that. But it is one way that we as Americans we consume a ton of chocolate, coffee, other types of things like that. We're a very wealthy nation and we can change the world by how we shop as crazy as that might sound. [00:41:33] 

 

Laura Dugger: No, that's actually very empowering to know a step, even as simple as googling something slave-free. So that's a really helpful first step we can take. 

 

Some of you have reached out to find specific books or resources that we have mentioned in one of our episodes. That's why I'm so excited to let you know about our new Resources tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can now click on our new tab called "Resources". There you will find all the resources we've ever mentioned on all the episodes of The Savvy Sauce. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you actually support our work at The Savvy Sauce. 

 

We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode, so you can still access the websites, scripture, and recommended resources when you click on any individual episode. We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned. 

 

Just in general, where would you direct us if we want to learn more about human trafficking? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Probably the best single organization out there that tries to capture the human trafficking problem is the Polaris Project, and that's just found at polarisproject.org. [00:42:46] They do a great job of condensing down statistics and getting their arms around what is human trafficking for people. They're also the group that runs the National Human Trafficking Hotline. 

 

Just to give you an idea as to how central this one non-profit, non-governmental organization, this one NGO is, if you were to go to the Department of Homeland Security website for the United States, and go to their Blue Campaign, which is all about human trafficking. If you go to Homeland Security's Blue Campaign website, and if you click on "what should I do if I suspect human trafficking", the Department of Homeland Security says to call the Polaris Project. 

 

So that's the one place everybody should go because it's kind of the place for statistics, for really interesting and insightful graphs, and trying to wrap your mind around this project. 

 

For believers, I always point to, you know, there are some big names out there who talk about this, even on the evangelical Christian side. David Platt is a name that many people are familiar with. The pastor does a lot of preaching online and has a large following. He has a really well-done presentation on using the power of the gospel to end human trafficking. [00:44:08] 

 

That probably can be found in a number of places. The place that I found it was on the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission website. That's part of the Southern Baptist Convention. They have a link to that entire talk that he did at their 2015 National Conference. 

 

He's been very outspoken on this issue, so that's a really good place to just kind of learn about what does the Gospel have to do with this, and how can we tackle this problem with the Gospel, with prayer, those types of things. 

 

For those who are in the medical community, I suggest a TED talk by a doctor named Kanani Tichen, K-A-N-A-N-I, and her last name is Tichen, T-I-C-H-E-N, like kitchen with a T. She does a great job of kind of walking through as a practitioner, if you're a medical practitioner or a dental or really anything like that, or if you work in a clinic or something, how to spot human trafficking. She has a voice of experience and has become, again, kind of a thought leader here in the United States for this problem. [00:45:13] 

 

So for the church, I generally say, let's start with the David Platt talk. I think it's a great place to start. For just basic statistics and research, the Polaris Project. And for anybody in the medical field or in the helping arts, counseling, pastoral ministry, or even things like homeless shelters, or if you volunteer, a place like that, Dr. Kanani Tichen's talk on TED Talks. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is a great place to start. Those are new ideas to me, so I appreciate you sharing that. Overall, it's just such a heavy topic. So do you have any personal stories of light overcoming darkness from all that you've witnessed? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Yes. You know, this is the business we're in. We take young people. We work only with adolescents. And we bring them into our residential treatment center and we try to help them turn their lives around, not just by the latest, greatest counseling techniques. We do all of that. You know, we have lots of licensed and certified counselors and trauma therapists and stuff here, but also just through the power of the gospel. [00:46:23] 

 

You know, I think we forget sometimes that God is more powerful than any human being or any human institution or any human problem. And so through prayer and through the power of the gospel we have seen young ladies who come to us and have literally been on the street or been in a human trafficking situation, a prostitution sort of situation, and they've come into our place, and it is a little bit like night and day for them. You know, walking into our place, which is very calm and very safe, and all the people here are very kind. 

 

And we have seen God's grace working in these young people's lives. And we've seen young women not only leave that lifestyle but never go back. Sometimes they're reunited with their families, but a lot of times their families also are really struggling. And so maybe they'll go into a Christian foster home or something like that. But we have seen it over and over again. 

 

Not every story is like that. Not every story is successful. But we have seen God use the church, God use his people to positively impact individual lives who are struggling, desperately struggling with this problem. [00:47:34] 

 

Laura Dugger: I think it goes along just with what I've been learning personally lately is just pondering that thought of light always overcomes darkness. I'm just so thankful that we know the end of the story and that God does win in the end. 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Absolutely. 

 

Laura Dugger: So I have one final question for you. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: Well, let me say this. A few years ago, I set out on a quest to read the classics, the classic literature. I had never voluntarily read something that was considered a classic. I had read some in school because you're forced to, and if you're going to pass a class, you've got to do it. But I had decided if there are books out there that have literally been around for 100, 200, 300 years and they're still selling, there's got to be something there that's good. [00:48:31] 

 

I was kind of frustrated with the state of modern fiction. Anyway, I'm a big fiction fan. I love reading. And I was kind of frustrated with the state of modern fiction. And so I was like, "Let me go back to the classics." So about three years ago, I set out to read classics. 

 

In the last three years, I've read 27 classic novels at last count. I'll just tell you, if you haven't done this, and if you have the stomach for it, not everybody does, but it has really enriched my life. There are books out there that are just breathtaking in their beauty. There are books out there that describe the human condition in a way that is just so poignant. It pierces right to your heart. Some of these authors, 200 years ago, are saying things that just feel so fresh and modern today. So I love that. I'm still reading them. 

 

But the savvy sauce for me lately has been reading the classics. If I could give you a recommendation, one of the books that I recommend to people is Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy, one of the Russian authors. Leo Tolstoy was a believer, Christian, and he writes this book, Anna Karenina. [00:49:42] It is largely about the effect of sin on a person's life. 

 

At the same time, so there's two kind of competing storylines. One is Anna Karenina herself is kind of falling head over heels into this destructive kind of whirlwind in her life. And there's another guy, kind of a simple country guy, who is at the same time that she's going downhill on this slide, he is coming alive to the gospel. 

 

The juxtaposition of those two storylines is just magical, and it's probably the best fiction book I've ever read. Anyway, that's where I tell people to start. At the same time, it's like a thousand pages long, it's written by a Russian guy. So I do get it, that not everybody has the stomach for that. 

 

Laura Dugger: But that's wonderful. This time in general has just been so informative, and I just want to say thank you for taking the time to share all this with us. 

 

Dr. Jeff Waibel: It's been my pleasure. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:50:47] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:51:52] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:52:59] 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

53 Practical Life Tips with Blogger and Speaker, Rach Kincaid

53. Practical Life Tips with Blogger and Speaker, Rach Kincaid

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Ephesians 5:10+11 “Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.” 

 

Rachael Kincaid is married to Chris and the mother to six children in her blended family. Additionally, she serves at church, coaches clients, and works as a hospice nurse, blogger, and speaker. She uses the internet to share her faith and encourage women. 

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Rach’s Website 

Connect with Rach on all the social media platforms: @rachkincaid

Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas 

Recommended Magazine: Life:Beautiful

Recommended Pastor: Andy Stanley

Sample of Books by Recommended Author, Jess Connolly:

Wild and Free

Always Enough, Never Too Much

Dance, Stand, Run

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka

 

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Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:01] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com. 

 

Today I'm excited to welcome back a returning guest. Rachel Kincaid is full of wisdom beyond her years. Some of her roles include being a wife and mother in a blended family, in addition to being a nurse, a blogger, and a speaker. Clearly, she's a high-capacity woman.

 

Today she's going to share intentional ways her family has kept their priorities in order. I hope you can find something beneficial in this chat to apply to your own life.

 

Welcome back again to The Savvy Sauce, Rach. [00:01:21] 

 

Rach Kincaid: I am so happy to be back. Thank you.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I loved getting to spend time chatting with you when we recently did an episode on reflecting Jesus in our relationships. For those who missed our chat, can you just give us a brief overview of who you are? 

 

Rach Kincaid: Absolutely. So my name is Rachel. I go by Rach on the internet most of the time, and I've been a Christian my whole life. I've loved Jesus pretty much my whole life. I did not start walking with Him or getting serious about it, I would say, until my teens, early 20s, just when it became a faith of my own. And that felt really important to me to kind of figure out who I was and who I belonged to and what I was going to do with my life. That's pretty much my story with Jesus. 

 

I am married to an incredible man who's a music director at our church, and we have six kids. So he brought two boys into our marriage, and then we had four kids in the first couple of years that we were married. So we had a boy, twin girls, and then another girl within about three and a half years. [00:02:24]  

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So you are managing a big family, and you're working full-time. We would love to hear some of your savvy tips. Let's just go through some of the common areas of life and hear what it actually looks like for you. 

 

Rach Kincaid: Okay. 

 

Laura Dugger: So, let's start just with sleep. How do you manage that?

 

Rach Kincaid: Oh, man. I can tell this is going to be my favorite episode, I think. I go to bed around 10 o'clock. Wake up around 6:30. And we try to work our sleep schedule... Let me rephrase that. We try to work our other schedules around our sleep schedule, both my husband and I. 

 

We've learned the importance of sleep and so we tried to leave events at, you know, 7:30 or 8:00 if we have our kids so that we can get them in bed at a decent hour. If we're out on a date night, our favorite thing to do is go early, 5:30 to 6:30, and then maybe we grab dessert or whatever after dinner, and we're still home by 9:00 or 10:00. [00:03:21] So we'll stay up late if we have to, but going to bed around 10:00 feels like a huge win. 

 

Then I would say waking up, I have learned how to relax a little bit in the mornings, but I wake up before my alarm goes off by about two minutes. And it drives my husband crazy because he feels like he's losing two minutes of sleep. But I immediately jump up, throw on some clothes, and I go into drill sergeant mode to get whatever needs to be done completed. So that we can actually get four kids downstairs, dressed, fed, the whole shebang, and on the bus in 20 minutes on school days. And that feels like, you know, I need a trophy for that. 

 

But at the same time, I'm not super kind or gentle or warm in the morning. So I'm working on that. But I would say for the most part, I'm a morning person. I can't do a lot of really heavy conversations or solid work after about 8:00 or 9:00 p.m. 

 

So I have also learned to be able to say how much sleep I need because I've got friends, even my husband, that can go With four or five six hours if they need to. I can't. I will immediately get a head cold or feel like I'm coming down with the flu if I get less than seven hours of sleep. [00:04:29] 

 

So I would say knowing your limitations and knowing what you need is is super important, as well as knowing where your shortcomings are, your flaws, if I may say that, and learning how to kind of soften those up a little bit. 

 

Laura Dugger: Really, having a healthy sleep routine is harder than it appears. So is this something that you and your husband have always done, or did you have to work at that? 

 

Rach Kincaid: Oh no, we had to work at it. I would say the first thing we started doing was getting rid of the snooze. None of us snooze. We don't even allow our teenage sons to use their snooze function. We just need that we just yell, "Get up, get up, get up, get up, get up," if their alarm goes off and they're still in the bed. 

 

So I think that's been really helpful. That took about two years for my husband to get rid of. I had never used a snooze ever, and I felt offended, insulted. I don't even know the word for it. When I would see him using, "What are you doing? But you're wasting all this time and you're being disrespectful to me. I share a bed with you." I mean, it was a whole thing. [00:05:24] 

 

So we got rid of that first. I would say only recently... We've been together dating, I think almost 15 years and married. This is our 10th year of marriage. So I would say only the last few years have we started doing what I think has been the most effective. And that is bedtime and wake-up time the same time every day. So if you have to wake up early for something, that's fine. But for the most part, try to wake up at the same time every day. 

 

Our idea of sleeping in is maybe one hour later than our weekdays or something like that, rather than the idea of catching up on sleep or staying up really late and then going to bed and waking up really late the next morning. We don't do that. So if we stay up late for a game or an award show, we still wake up at the same time the next morning, and we're willing to just be tired because we want our bodies to stay on that rhythm. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that is such a good idea. And now, thinking of your family, there's eight of you. So when you consider work, play, meals, extracurriculars, the list can go on, what does your family rhythm look like? [00:06:32] 

 

Rach Kincaid: Oh man. So it's pretty chaotic right now because we have two teenagers who are driving in our home. Our eldest is headed to college, so that will bring us down to seven on a regular basis in our home. 

 

For the most part, I will get the hard stuff out of the way first. And that is, you know, the stuff that your listeners might judge me for. But that is, we did not do any extracurricular activities for the little kids while the big kids were playing sports. 

 

We felt like we only had a few years together as a family in one house under one roof, and we wanted as much together time as we could. So when our big boys were running cross-country or playing football or whatever, our little kids, they would just come with us. And we would set up a big picnic blanket and snacks and books, and that would be the event. And they would just run around there and get their exercise that way. [00:07:26] 

 

Only recently have we started with the extracurriculars, and that would be Boy Scouts and dance, I think. And what we've done with that is only gone to places that allow us to put multiple kids in one class, as well as all of our activities on one night. Because I do not want to be that wife that never sees her husband because we're playing tag in and tag out on activities for our kids. 

 

So one night a week, we can maybe split up and take our kids to different things and then meet back at the house. But I did not want to be doing that three afternoons or four nights a week. That's kind of how we manage our extracurricular activities. 

 

With meals, we have dinner together around the table every single night. Sometimes we eat it on the floor in the kitchen. We have a huge old farmhouse that was built in 1890. It has not been renovated, so don't get any romantic ideas in your head. But our kitchen is this big open square. It's too small to put an island in, but it's really big otherwise. 

 

And so we have this tiny kind of old French country table with the leaves that we can fold down, the little drop-leaf table. And so our little kids will sit around that and the rest of us will sit on the floor and we'll all eat together there. Or we'll all eat in our dining room, which is our main place of hangout and homework and eating and all that. [00:08:57] 

 

We do try to eat one meal together per day. That feels important. All the research I've read talks about that. If you could do only one thing as a family while your kids are in there in the home. Like forget sports, forget everything else. Like just try to get around the table and eat. So we definitely do that.

 

Then as far as rhythm goes, our kids go to bed at the same time every night. I'm in grad school right now. I'm doing a lot of homework at night. So we'll sit in front of Netflix together, my husband and I, or we went through a couple of different series with the big boys to watch TV. So maybe one or two nights a week we do that. 

 

Then we're in community a lot. And that's new for us. Because when I was first having babies, I was very private. I had major postpartum depression, and so I was withdrawn. I didn't want anybody to know that I was struggling. But over the last three to five years, we've really opened ourselves up to community. 

 

So we are with people, families probably two nights a week at least, having people over to eat or going to their house or going out for ice cream or taco night or things like that. So that also gets priority over anything else in our schedules as well. [00:10:09] 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, this is just giving me so many more questions than when you talk about prioritizing getting together around a table at least one meal a day. You have a big family, so you have a lot of excuses you can make for why that's not possible. So, how are you even logistically making that a reality? What do you prepare and who helps, those type of things? 

 

Rach Kincaid: Don't get the idea of a three-course meal with candles and all that in our dining room table. I can give an example. Last week, we wanted to go grab snow cones with some friends after dinner. And no one actually got home ready to eat until we should have actually been eating dinner. 

 

So we were sitting at the table for, I think, 17 minutes. We were laughing about it because everybody was just scarfing it down really fast. But we meal-plan a week in advance. We grocery-shop only one time a week. I have a chalkboard that has all of our meals. My husband and I both cook. In fact, since I've been in grad school, he has taken over almost all of the cooking and the laundry. [00:11:14] I cannot remember the last time I did laundry. So that's been huge. 

 

We make sacrifices. So he will come home from work and eat and go back to work if he needs to. We live near our church, so that's helpful. But I would say sacrifice is huge. Planning ahead is huge. 

 

And then simplifying your meals and what you offer is huge. So we do a lot of instant pot meals, a lot of cold prep meals. We've been preparing a lot of vegan meals lately to try to cut down on our meat consumption. It saves a lot of money and we all feel healthier. So we've been doing a lot of cold Asian-type salads with Peanut sauces and things like that that have been yummy. 

 

Those take about 30 minutes. Our dinner probably we try to keep it under an hour of prep and then we're sitting around the table for, you know, 20 to 30 minutes. Kind of like a school lunch where it's not a leisurely meal by any means but it does get us face-to-face with one another.

 

And I think we're doing that five days a week right now with at least four of our kids, if not all six. So that's been the goal and I think we're doing pretty well. [00:12:18] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that you also brought up the importance of community. Again, having a big family, how do you make that a reality? Maybe somebody's listening today and they want that community. What does it look like for you? How did you get started? Those type of things. 

 

Rach Kincaid: I would say it's kind of the same thing that I felt about work when people would ask me, how do I find a job that I love or how do I get more time with my family? Because when I first started writing on the internet and blogging and things like that, I found a group of women, followers, readers, whatever you want to call them, that were really interested in a mom who worked outside of the home. 

 

So I feel like I do kind of have a little bit of favor with that group of women because I've made a lot of changes in my life to help me balance my home versus work ratio. My answer to them was always, Do it. Be extreme if you have to. Leave your job, find another one. Work 12-hour shifts and work three days a week. Find a job that allows you to do that, or find a job that allows you to do four 10-hour shifts or something like that. [00:13:21] 

 

And the same thing with community, the same thing with getting rhythms in your home, do it. If you have to be extreme and disciplined and diligent about it, I don't mean to tell anybody to leave their church, but if your church is not offering small groups, in a family setting that allows you to bring your kids and that kind of thing, then find one that does. Or make the change. Be the change you want to see. Do it at your own church. 

 

So our family groups meet every other week. We meet every other Friday night. The kids are welcome. We all eat a meal together. And then the kids go upstairs and watch a movie and hang out with each other while the adults talk about the sermon from the week and pray for each other and just share, read our Bibles together, that kind of thing. That is the perfect setup. 

 

Every other week is amazing because nobody really has an excuse to not prioritize for that. Our kids are involved. Our kids get to do multi-generational community with the teenagers and the adults that are in our group. But then if you're under 13, then you go upstairs and you hang out with your friends. [00:14:17] 

 

We would have never had that option had we not left our church. So we had to leave. We had to find something new. We had to get extreme in order to do the things that we felt like God wanted us to do, to model our collective family life after what we thought He wanted it to look like. 

 

So it's not about sitting around and talking about it. Sometimes it's about making those really hard choices. Like, what if you said, Only one kid gets to play a sport per season or something like that and we're everybody gets their season? But we're only doing one right now so that we can still have a few meals together per week and so that we can all go to sessions such as baseball game or whatever.

 

Our lives do not have to look like Everybody else's and our families don't have to look like what we think they're supposed to look like. My friend and I were laughing about this a few weeks ago because we were talking about how we don't allow our daughters to go to sleepovers or extended playdates right now because we're just not sure what kind of decision or policy we want to make for our family. [00:15:20] 

 

I don't really want to have to interview somebody else's family. Do you have older brothers or anything like that? So right now we're just saying like no long playdates, no sleepovers, things like that. And I was talking to her about it thinking like, what if they think we're weird? What if they think that we're like the only parents out there that don't let them do that? And she was like, "Right. But like they're not missing out. They're still getting community. They're still getting socialization. We're not locking them in their rooms at home all the time."

 

On the same point, we are doing things differently from the way our parents raised us. So they're probably going to do things differently when they grow up too. And we can't feel guilty or weird about that. We just have to say we're doing the best with the information we have at the time. 

 

So, for me, that might mean getting a little more extreme, and that might mean, can you believe the audacity of that mom only letting one of her kids play baseball and all the other kids had to sit on the bleachers? But you don't know, maybe next season the other kid gets to play basketball. So I think it involves decision-making and not worrying about what other people are doing or what they're thinking. [00:16:22] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. How do you find time to personally connect with God? 

 

Rach Kincaid: I read my Bible every day, try to read it in the morning. I started when I was coming out of a season of depression. I had some very militant checklist items. I know you're a counselor, so you probably are familiar with some of the basics of brushing your teeth every day and checking it off the list or making your bed. 

 

What I developed is a little checklist in the morning that I called the five, five, and five. I would make my bed, make my coffee, and read my Bible. And each of those tasks took about five minutes. I would make my bed, walk into the kitchen, make my coffee, walk into the living room, sit in the same chair, and read my Bible for five minutes only. I cut myself off after that because I did not want to do it because I had to. I wanted to do it because I wanted to. And at the time, I didn't want to. [00:17:17] 

 

It sounds a little twisty, but I would say, I'm going to develop this new pathway in my brain, this new rhythm in my heart to a level where eventually I will crave it. And that was about three or four years ago, and now I do. I crave my Bible every day. 

 

I connect with Him by reading my Bible first and foremost. Talking about Him with people would probably be another amazing way that I love to connect with God. But then praying is one of my weaknesses. I have always grown up feeling like I didn't want to bother God with my problems. 

 

What I'm working on currently is connecting with God in a constant communion kind of way, where I'm just chatting with Him throughout my day, asking Him for tangible things, asking Him for spiritual things, asking him to convict me, comfort me, and all sorts of things. I think those three ways probably: reading my Bible, connecting with other believers, and talking about Jesus, and praying. 

 

Laura Dugger: What about when it comes to discipling your children? What does that actually look like in your family? [00:18:23] 

 

Rach Kincaid: We do not read our Bible with our kids. We do not do nighttime story time and all of that with that kind of routine. Again, with the decision-making, there's only so much time in the day. So because we connect with our kids over the table for meals, that's where we do a lot of talking. We talk a lot about what's happening in the world, and then we try to relate that to what God thinks, what God meant when He designed us, and what He wants us to do about it. 

 

Our kids are also very involved in the kids program at our church, and they come home with these little cards that help them find verses and talk about it. If I could give you one example of how I felt like I wasn't doing enough to disciple my son and then he surprised me with this story, and I realized that discipleship is a community-wide endeavor. 

 

So the people, the trusted adults that are in our family group are discipling my son. And the people who are our servant leaders, that's what we call our volunteers at my church, they are discipling my son. And me, by living out a life that is following after Jesus, that is discipling my son. It's not necessarily having to sit next to him, read a Bible verse, pray with him, that kind of thing. [00:19:36] 

 

So a few months ago, he had some birthday money, saved up his birthday money and bought this helicopter, and played with it so much that he was starting to kind of get in trouble with it. He was trying to sneak it out like in the middle of the night or waking up really early to play with it. 

 

There was something I'm trying to remember the details. But whatever it was we had this talk with him where we said, "You're getting a little bit too obsessed with this helicopter. We need you to put it on the shelf. There's a time and place to play with it." It was a drone, like it could fly on its own So he would take it outside when he wasn't supposed to and it would crash into a tree. We would say, "You know, we don't want you to break it. We don't mean you to lose it. So you need to take care of it?"

 

Well, one day it wasn't working, and he's showing it to us. And we couldn't figure out why, because everything looked right. And we saw that a piece had been tampered with. And we asked him, "Did you mess with this little tab? If you pull this tab off, the helicopter won't fly." He said, "No." 

 

Then, I mean, ten minutes later, he comes up to us. He's crying. He's weeping. "It was me. I pulled it. I thought that it was something else I could do with the helicopter. I didn't know. Also, I lied to you. And I'm really sorry." So he confessed that right away. [00:20:42] 

 

And so he's processing it with my husband, and then I come upstairs because I hear them talking about it, and I sit down next to him. And he's not very affectionate. He's just not an affectionate dude. He likes to kind of sit next to me and look at me, not like crawl into my lap. So he was, I think, seven or eight at this point, and he said, "At church..." and he's what we call snubbing, which is when you're crying and doing this and trying to get your breath. And so he's doing the snubbing cry. 

 

And he said, "At church, we're learning about treasures and how you're not supposed to store up treasures on earth because things can break and you can't take them with you, and that you need to store up treasures in heaven, things like kindness and goodness and learning how to be in God's family, because that's the stuff you can take with you. And I think I was storing up treasures on earth with my helicopter, and I think God wants me to stop." And I just lost my junk. [00:21:35] 

 

So at this point, I'm like weeping. I'm like, "You understand. It's so beautiful." And then I realized I never taught in that verse. He learned it and discussed it at church. So it's just this cool reminder that I am not the sole person that's responsible for my kids' upbringing and their decision-making and all sorts of things, which is cool because it's encouraging in a way where you know that they can be loved on and raised up by a lot of different people. But you also know it's not your fault if they decide to walk away from all of that. It's all of us together doing our best to help them make the best decisions that they can by following after people who are following after Jesus. 

 

Laura Dugger: And that is incredibly freeing. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka has been owned and operated by the BERTSCHI family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. 

 

If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. [00:22:48] 

 

This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Lemans". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. 

 

I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. 

 

Learn more at their website lemaneureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: What about your view of work? How does your family view work and teach it to your children? [00:23:47] 

 

Rach Kincaid: Well, our kids are all very hardworking little people. I think I'd start by talking about my work. I've tried really hard for them to understand that I don't leave the house because I want to. I leave the house because I'm working for our family, but also I'm working for the families that I serve. 

 

So I don't want them to view work as a I gotta go, you know, work for the man so I can put food on the table and it become this… I don't know, this discouraging dark kind of future that awaits them. So I want them to see that they have to share me with my work. I want them to see that they have to share me with the people that I serve. 

 

I'm a hospice nurse. I work with patients and their families at the end of life. So I want them to see the importance of that. Mama is leaving because she gets to do this thing. And also, we get to have food on the table. It's both and. So I want them to see that. [00:24:43] 

 

My husband has primarily worked from home almost their entire lives. And we want them to see that both men and women can take responsibility for their kids inside and outside of the home. So that's important. He works full-time hours. He's one of the hardest-working men I know. But he goes into church or out to meetings, and then back home, we have a music studio in our house. 

 

So that would be another example. I want them to respect our work inside the home. For example, while I'm doing this interview, they understand they should not be knocking on the door, bothering me. They should not be knocking on the door and bothering Dad when he's recording something or working on music, because it is his work. So just this idea, this sense of respect for work, that we get to do it. 

 

And also that they're not too young. So they each have chores that they have to do, and then they each have chores that they like to do, that they kind of go above and beyond on a regular basis. And that's been really neat to watch. [00:25:36] 

 

Our baby started doing chores when she was three. So it's just cool to see that they don't have to wait. Just like you don't have to wait till you're an adult to matter to the kingdom of God or to be a leader or to make a difference in the world, you also don't wait until you're a teenager or an adult to actually contribute to society, to contribute to our family. That's been really cool to kind of teach them a work ethic from an early age.

 

Laura Dugger: I love hearing that. And I think so many women can identify with you if they're working inside the home or outside the home. So many people will say that they struggle with feelings of guilt or questioning. Has that ever been your experience being a working mom? 

 

Rach Kincaid: The only thing I still mourn, which I'm open about because it's a grieving process, is that I never got to stay home with my kids before they went to kindergarten. That has been painful for me over the years. And I'm at a place now where I know that I spent so much time with them. [00:26:36] 

 

I had such a flexible schedule. when they were very, very young. So if they were in preschool, I could come to their performances, or even now that they're in elementary school, I can come into the classroom when they need me there. So that's been sweet, but also hard. 

 

I would not say I've had mom guilt about not being around for my kids, because from the very first moment that Chris and I talked about parenting together, we both agreed that we were going to be a marriage-centered family. So our family revolves around our marriage, and not in a selfish way, but that our marriage has to be healthy for our kids to thrive, and for our kids to grow up healthy, and for our kids, hopefully, to have healthy marriages someday. 

 

So in order for our marriage to be healthy, there has to be finances in order, there has to be date nights, there has to be conversations that take place without being interrupted by kids, there has to be work that fulfills us, that brings us joy, and that brings us a paycheck. [00:27:37] 

 

And so I've never felt like I should be somewhere that I wasn't. I've never felt that I should have been the one with my kids all the time. Now, if they had to go to daycare from the very beginning, I can see that that guilt would creep in in a way that just feels like a little bit of despair. 

 

I would say I felt that on a small level because I never got to be the sole caregiver for any of my kids during infancy. I went back to work when they were five weeks old, and then the twins, I got to stay home for three months, which was a miraculous gift. And then the baby, five weeks again. I went back to work at four and five weeks postpartum with those kids. 

 

So it's just been hard, hard physically, hard emotionally, hard mentally. But I just can't allow the guilt to be piled up on top of that. I know that I'm doing what God called me to do. I know that my kids are going to be safe. I know that they're going to be okay. And I know that they actually might be better off. They might be better off seeing me fight. for the things that God's called me to do. [00:28:36] I don't know. We'll find out someday. 

 

Laura Dugger: I so appreciate your vulnerability and the truth that you share around that. I'm curious, then, you say it is a grieving process, do you feel like that grieving process started right after they were born, or is it more something that you look back and you're grieving now as you're a few years distanced from it?

 

Rach Kincaid: I think I started grieving when my daughter, my baby, who's five now, started losing her baby fat and we were having to get rid of clothes and things like that. The cute little chubby roll started to disappear. And I realized we're done having kids. We can never come back to this day again. And before I know it, they're all going to be in school, and we're running out of time to make a decision if our lives are going to look any different kind of way. 

 

But the beautiful part of that grief was that God used it to show me what I was going to do for the rest of my life. So I became a nurse because I knew my husband was going to be in vocational ministry. We felt called together for him to be in vocational ministry. And knowing that the pay and the income and the work might be unstable at times, I felt like nursing was a really easy, flexible, secure kind of career. [00:30:00] So I picked it just because, hey, I like helping people, and I heard you can be a nurse anywhere in the world, so I'll do that. 

 

But if you fast forward five or six or seven years, I had now been a nurse for that long, and still it felt like a placeholder position. I pay the majority of the bills so that Daddy can lead people to Jesus in worship. That was me. I had put all that on myself. 

 

But while I was grieving, I felt the Lord kind of say, like, then what do you want to do? You don't have to do this for the rest of your life. What do you want to do? And so now I'm in grad school. I'm studying to get my doctorate. I'm going to be a nurse practitioner for the adult and gerontological population. So old folks are my... that's my sweet spot. 

 

It feels cool because I can say this has to be worth it. At one point, I was working 60 to 70 hours a week. I was going three days without seeing my kids at all, because I would come home after they were in bed, and I would leave before they woke up. [00:31:03] Thank God I left that job and found a better one. 

 

But at the time, I was like, this has to be worth it. This can't be what the rest of my motherhood/career looks like. So I'm grateful that I allowed myself to feel those feelings and express them. And I can remember how it felt to sit and stare at my husband with tears rolling down my face, saying, "I cannot be a nurse for the rest of my life in the current position that I'm in just to support you to do what God's called you to do." 

 

And he said, "Then what are we going to do? And I said, I think I want to go back to school." And he said, "Then we are going back to school." And when I picked the program, he said, then we are going to grad school and we are going to get our doctorate and we are going to do this together. And the whole family has been so encouraging and cheering for me. 

 

Now my kids do their homework alongside me while I do my homework. And it feels like this sweet gift where I knew going into it that I was gonna quote, "miss out" on a lot with my kids. But now I get to share something extra special with them that I might not have otherwise. [00:32:05] 

 

Laura Dugger: Speaking of your background in nursing, let's talk about health a little bit because it seems you put a really high priority on your health and the health of your family. Is that right? 

 

Rach Kincaid: I do. I care a lot about it. We can get into the topic of keeping your kids healthy, but too often I feel like that's a nuanced conversation that would need to take place face-to-face. I don't ever want anybody to feel that I'm judging them or that I'm saying there's only one right way. I'm sure you've been through all the drama of how you birth your babies and how you feed your babies and when you vaccinate your babies and things like that. 

 

So we have made all sorts of different decisions about those topics, but one of the things that I think is very important is introducing and maintaining a healthy diet with my kids. Now, don't get me wrong. We love fast food. We'll eat ice cream, pizza, the whole shebang. But at home, for example, we don't serve them a different meal. If they don't like what we're eating, then they don't eat dinner. [00:33:06] 

 

And we don't serve juice. We just drink water. That's all my kids drink. I bought them each a water bottle. They can put stickers all over it. That's their special water bottle. They fill it up all day. 

 

Another example would be my kids have never been medicated, as far as I can tell, with antibiotics. So I try to avoid that so that we can use it if they have a raging ear infection or a raging strep throat or something like that. I want to be able to save it for when I know it will work. And just because of the prevalence of antibiotic resistance and all of that, I try to not take them to the doctor if they're sick unless it's met a criteria that I have. 

 

So that would be another random example that you have to make the decision when you're in the moment. And every parent and every family is different but my kids having a sore throat or a cough or a fever things like that typically for me that just warrants more fluids, they have to sleep, they don't get to go to school and I use a lot of essential oils along with the ibuprofen and the Tylenol and all that and just kind of wait it out. [00:34:07] 

 

Maybe being a nurse has helped me with that because it makes me relax a lot more. I'm working in a primary care clinic right now where we see a lot of kids and for my clinicals for school, so I'm learning a lot from the doctors there. Nine times out of ten they're sending people right back home and saying, "You know, drink Gatorade and go to sleep." So I'm trying to avoid doctor's offices if we can and things like that. 

 

I'm trying to think what else. I think those are the big things: what we eat and how we try to stay healthy. Right now I'm looking at my kids out the window because we have kicked them outside. We try to do screen time and before or after lunch if it's the summer or the weekend and not both. 

 

I know the max is two hours a day but that includes phones and all sorts of things. So I know I'm not even sticking to that. I try just to spread it out. So we are on three acres of land and we have a trampoline and a swing set and we just kick our kids out. So right now they're on the front porch and rocking chairs and they've just climbed a couple of trees and chased each other around the yard, and then they'll come in for lunch when it's time and probably go back out in the afternoon. [00:35:12] 

 

We are members at a gym. So my husband and I care a lot about taking care of our bodies that way. They have some programs for the kids, specifically in the summer where they move their bodies a lot in different types of activities. And swimming. We take our kids swimming. So I would say we do a lot of that. 

 

Sometimes we go to the park and play football together as a family with the teenagers and things like that. That's been fun. As far as food goes, we just try to do a lot of veggies. So we used to have a garden. Our chickens have now taken over the garden. We started eating a lot of vegan meals a few… actually a year ago now. 

 

We've never had dairy, a lot of dairy in the house because my husband's a singer and it affects the vocal cords. So my kids have grown up on almond milk and haven't had a problem with that. We don't really drink anything other than water. So almond milk and your cereal, they're not really going to notice a huge difference between that and cow's milk. [00:36:06] So that's been pretty easy. 

 

A lot of green veggies. We eat a lot of tofu, salads, we call them fancy salads. I've learned that if you serve everything in different dishes, put it in the center of the table and let the kids put their own toppings on whatever you're serving, it suddenly becomes a fun meal. So, we'll do a beans and rice bar or a fancy salad bar or things like that, and suddenly my kids are eating things that they swore they would never eat just because they got to serve their own plate. 

 

We eat a lot at home, but we also live in the South, so we love Chick-fil-A, and we go there every now and then, too. So, all about moderation. 

 

Laura Dugger: So, you totally just gave me some ideas for dinner this week. What about self-care? How do you handle that? 

 

Rach Kincaid: I love the topic of self-care and really I love pop culture. And so I love it when people argue about ideas, especially on the internet. It started with the obvious bubble baths and painting my nails or getting manicures or things like that. But also now that I'm looking back I can see areas of my life where I was taking care of myself and I just wasn't labeling it that way, such as building white space into my calendar so that we only had one event per day or things like that. Saying no to things so that you're not doing back-to-back activities or whatever it may be. [00:37:32] That is self-care. 

 

Remembering this idea that... I just feel like we are on this earth for a reason and it is kind of an ongoing battle against darkness in a way that allows us to bring God's kingdom to earth. I know that we're safe and protected and all that, but every day really can be a battle. This idea of fighting darkness with the tools that He has given me, to me, that is self-care. 

 

I'll give you an example. Me building a capsule wardrobe so that I know what I'm wearing every day and I don't waste any time speaking death over myself or trying to figure out a way to buy new clothes when we don't have the money to do it or things like that, like that is self-care. Or me getting a facial, to me that is self-care because I want to know that I'm taking the best possible care of my skin so that it will last me to age 75 or 80 so I can still do ministry. Or working out in the gym, same exact topic. I want this body to carry the good news and for a long time, so that is self-care. [00:38:35] 

 

But also, like, the bubble baths with the magazine, you know, that is self-care. I recently subscribed to Vogue because I was reading other magazines that were a little gossipy and gross and would kind of suck me into the whole dark world of celebrities, dating celebrities. I like Vogue because it has high-interest, high-caliber writing about interesting people and cool pictures of fashion and things that I'm interested in, but not in a way that makes me covet or feel like, oh, must be nice and, you know, feel bad or down about myself. 

 

I recently… when I finish studying for a test or taking an exam or anything, I love to flip through a magazine, a Vogue magazine. It's easy. It's not me numbing myself. And that's what I want to talk about next. Not me numbing myself or turning my brain off, but me just enjoying things that I know help me to enjoy life more. I think it's totally appropriate. [00:39:31] 

 

So the danger of self-care is when we are self-medicating, when we are numbing ourselves because we don't want to deal with whatever we're supposed to be dealing with. Right now, I am the healthiest emotionally I think I've ever been. I just finished counseling. I'm in this crazy place of breakthrough with my husband with radical vulnerability and accountability and allowing myself to be convicted when I need to repent or confess and feeling like nobody has any debt with me. Just feeling very wild and free and open. And I love that. 

 

So, therefore self-care helps me to maintain and continue that. If you're applying self-care to a broken place, That's called self-medication. That's just like drinking too much or taking meds or whatever that you do to numb yourself. I think it's important to differentiate that and identify what are we doing for self-care and why and how is it helping our lives point more to Jesus. [00:40:31] 

 

Laura Dugger: I think that's so good to make the distinction, and like you said, pointing it back to Jesus. That God designed each of us with a certain personality, and self-care is really just doing something that makes you more of the self God designed you to be. 

 

Rach Kincaid: Right, right. 

 

Laura Dugger: That was really helpful. If anybody's looking for another magazine recommendation, have you ever heard of Life Beautiful? 

 

Rach Kincaid: No, I haven't. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. It's kind of like real simple for Christians, I would say. It's got so much scripture and encouraging stories. It's called Life Beautiful. We'll put it in the show notes. 

 

Did you know that we save some of our best content for our patrons? You can access these secret podcasts by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on our "Patreon" tab. 

 

For example, you can hear my exclusive interview with Alex Puchko, a Disney cast member who shares some business principles and life applications behind the magic and success of Disney. [00:41:33] You can also hear bonus content from internationally known speaker Debbie Titus, along with many other experts. 

 

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How does your family intentionally live in community?

 

Rach Kincaid: Well, we are part of a church that has family groups. So I would say that, first of all, those folks get our priority. And that has been an interesting dynamic that's popped up in my life over the last couple of years.

 

When people... I'm not saying that I'm super popular and everybody wants to hang out with me. But if I get an invitation to hang out with someone, I have learned how to prioritize it. If they are not a woman in my community group and they are not a woman that I'm already actively investing in, whether that be mentoring or just a healthy two-way accountability type relationship, then I really have to say no, because I just don't have the time. [00:42:40] 

 

So I've been able to prioritize relationships in my life based on the importance of community. So our family group from church is really important. The people with whom I serve at church are also really important. That's a separate group of people I serve in the teen ministry. 

 

So the men and women that serve there, I want to get to know them as best as I can outside of church, because they are with me on the front lines when it comes to student ministry. And so I want to know them well. Those are the two big groups of folks that we hang out with. And then our kids just come alongside us all the time. So they're with us every time we're with these people, which is really cool. 

 

Another interesting thing is over the last two years. I've started making time for one lunch per month with a couple of different girls So I think it's three right now that I'm hanging out with. They're either in college or out of college or newlywed. 

 

And it all started out because they would ask me, you know, I'd like you to disciple me basically. I'd like to be mentored. But within two or three months, it became, we're just friends and we're just friends walking alongside one another, trying to point each other to Jesus. [00:43:39] And if I do have experience in an area that you need help with, I'm happy to share that with you. But that's been a really cool intentional piece of community as well. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. How do you and Chris ensure that your household is marriage-centered and doesn't swing to the side of being child-centered? 

 

Rach Kincaid: That's a great question. My husband is very strict about a couple of different things. And one of those, we used to listen to a lot of sermons and educational resources by Andy Stanley, the pastor. He's actually the one that created this idea of marriage-centered family. But he and his wife used to talk about disciplining their kids for only three things, and that was dishonesty, disobedience, and disrespect, the three D's. 

 

So my husband still kind of sticks to those things. So he has a very low tolerance for disrespect, dishonesty, and disobedience. And I would say that the disrespect part is the most important part to the marriage-centered family. So if we have kids that are chatting in the living room and my husband and I are in a conversation in our bedroom and the kids just barge in, it's not even like, excuse me, we were talking. It will be ghosted in timeout, "We'll let you know when you can get up" or whatever it is because he wants that to be a very quick instant reminder that you are not allowed to interrupt Mama and Daddy. That is the most important. Unless it's an emergency. [00:45:03] And we taught them how to say, Emergency, if it is, because there have been a few. So that's been really interesting. 

 

Another thing that he has implemented that I have followed him in is that they come out of timeout on their own. So the stairs is our timeout. It's in the center of our house. Everybody can see them. So they're not like hiding in secret anywhere. We just send them there all.. that we don't ever say timeout. But we send them to the stairs to reset. 

 

So if they're mad at someone, if they've just freaked out, if they've been disrespectful or rude or even if they just need a break because they're starting to fight with their siblings, we'll say, Hey, go take a break on the stairs. And they can come out of that timeout whenever they're ready. They just have to come process it with an adult. I think that also kind of feeds into the idea that we are not revolving our world around them. We're inviting them into our world. And the way that we handle conflict is taking a break, confessing our sin, having normal, healthy, level-headed conversations with one another. And so we try to implement that in our home. [00:46:01] 

 

Laura Dugger: So many practical tips there. What about the topic of the Sabbath? Is there anything that your family does to honor the Sabbath? 

 

Rach Kincaid: We do. Chris and I have to take a Sabbath. First of all, Sunday is, very rarely, Sabbath for anybody who works for a church or even if you serve a lot at a church. So I think it's important to look for another chunk of the week, whether it be four hours or eight hours or whatever you could do, where you call that your Sabbath as well. 

 

So Sundays are definitely not our Sabbath, but they are for our kids. So we come home after church and they rest. We all rest for a little bit, but typically I'm only home for about two hours before I have to go back to church for the teens. 

 

So Chris and I, before grad school, we took a Sabbath together every Thursday morning. Back in the day, it was every Friday. But for the most part, we try to take four hours together. where we grab breakfast out together or go on a walk together or try something new. We took a spin class one time together. And it's just that reminder that, again, with Jess Connelly, I feel like I always talk about her, but she and her husband are so wise. And they have talked about, we work from a place of rest. We don't rest from our work. [00:47:15] So the harder we kind of swing into rest, the more momentum we're going to have rolling back into the work. 

 

And so if God is powerful enough to create everything He did and He still took arrest, then we need to model our lives after Him. So I would say separate from Sunday, if Sunday is wild, and it doesn't have to be all day, but we definitely do. 

 

And we typically put our phones somewhere where they can get lost. If there's an emergency, we'll turn the ringers on. Basically, we just don't look at them, you know, put them in the front hallway or something like that and try to really engage with one another. We are also currently reading through a marriage book together on audio. So it's really cheesy, but he has one earbud and I have one earbud and we listen to a chapter at a time. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's awesome. What book is it, if you don't mind me asking? 

 

Rach Kincaid: It's called Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas. And the chapters each end up being about 30 to 45 minutes on audio. So it's been perfect for us to just do one chapter at a time. But the kind of the theme is that what if marriage was designed to make us more holy instead of happy? And this idea that marriage is an example of Christ's love for the church. And so therefore, it's supposed to be hard and refining because Jesus died for the church. [00:48:34] So it wasn't like this easy romantic love. So it's been really cool. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so great. We've covered so many topics, but is there anything else that your family does that you would like to share? 

 

Rach Kincaid: I would say making adventure out of the mundane has been really powerful for us because we are a family of eight and obviously the resources are finite. We have found ways to make things fun in areas where we might not be able to experience adventure in a way that other families can. 

 

So I'll explain. We've never been able to go on a spring break vacation to Disney World and spend thousands of dollars on making memories that way. But this past spring break, we made t-shirts that the kids wore every single day. I made a playlist, and we came up with one adventure that we did each day. Sometimes it was as simple as dollar cupcakes at a bakery in town or going to the park or the library or something like that. 

 

My husband is great about being silly with it. And so he will do things like call everything spring break, whatever. Like, "Come downstairs. It's time for spring break breakfast." and the kids are falling over themselves to get downstairs and it's a bowl of Cheerios. It's not a big deal. 

 

I think that has been really cool, a practical way to make life fun instead of just saying, well, someday when we raise these kids and we have more money and we have more time, our life will be more adventurous. [00:49:54] I try to bring the adventure to the right now. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so fun. Is there anything else that's consuming your thoughts in this season? 

 

Rach Kincaid: On my bad day in my flesh, I'm worried that I will leave the wrong kind of legacy. I'm worried that my kids will remember the hard times, the times that I yelled, the times that I embarrassed them or I didn't handle things correctly, and that that will define their relationship with me and maybe even their relationship with God. So that's what I let my thoughts do when my flesh runs away with me. 

 

What I am reminded of is that God's grace to me is also God's grace to my children. It's a gift, and they can learn how to use it. And as long as I continue to go low and go humble and remind them that I'm doing this for the first time, and I love them with all of my heart, and I'm, quote-unquote, "doing my best," but even my best is not enough because they need Jesus to fill those holes and those voids and those wounds, and then they're able to receive that grace and then maybe extend that grace back to me. [00:51:03] 

 

So consuming my thoughts, yes, just because I've got a kid out of the house now, and then one going to kindergarten or in kindergarten, and that just feels like, wow, such a sense of finality. Everything's moving so fast. 

 

I keep screwing up every day, but just to remember that, like, right, you do screw up because you are human in need of a Savior. And as long as you continue to remind your kids of that and share that Savior with them, we're going to make it. We're going to make it with happy memories, and the legacy will be a legacy of the gospel. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is very relatable. No doubt listeners are going to want to follow up and connect with you after hearing you today. So where can they find you online? 

 

Rach Kincaid: I am at Rachkincaid.com and Rach Kincaid on all the social media platforms. So I look forward to talking with you guys. 

 

Laura Dugger: Awesome. Well, as we close today, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge. And so today we would love to hear, what is your savvy sauce? [00:52:01] 

 

Rach Kincaid: I think at the risk of going so boring with this, because it is practical, to stop before you go anywhere or do anything or start a busy day and really prioritize what it is you have to do. That helps you stay on track and it keeps you almost like with this sense of fulfillment and accomplishment. 

 

So if you're not a to-do list person, maybe you should become one. Because I have one on my desktop of my laptop and one on my chalkboard in my kitchen, one on my phone. And these are just things that pop into my head not like a must do this by this day. Just things that are popping into my head. Because when I get them out of my head it gives me more room in my head for the things that matter like engaging my kids, engaging my community, spending time with the Lord, spending time with my husband. So I would definitely say to just stop, pause, and prioritize. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so good. Man, I could just ask you questions all day long. I've really enjoyed this time together, and I've learned so much from you. So thank you for being a guest again, Rachel. 

 

Rach Kincaid: Thank you for having me. [00:53:05]

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:54:11] 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:55:13] 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:56:11] 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

52 Top 10 Listener Questions Related to the Mother-in-Law/Daughter-in-Law Relationship with Author of The Mother-In-Law Dance, Annie Chapman

52. Top 10 Listener Questions Related to the Mother-in-Law/Daughter-in-Law Relationship with Author of The Mother-In-Law Dance, Annie Chapman

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Psalm 90:12 “Teach us to number our days aright, that we may gain a heart of wisdom.” 

 

Annie Chapman is the author of “The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along?” In addition to being an author of many books,Annie is wife to Steve, mother to 2 adult children, and grandmother to 6. Her perspective as both a mother-in-law and daughter-in-law brings unique clarity to this discussion. 

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? by Annie Chapman

 

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When listeners heard we were going to be discussing the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship, we got a lot of awesome questions and comments! We want to share a few of those with you today.

 

3 Things Daughters-in-Law Appreciated:

• Most Common Response: Offering help with the grandkids. One listener wrote in: “My mother-in-law loves my kids so deeply and intensely. She is incredibly generous with them (and us)! She is also beyond gracious and giving with her time. She will, at least a couple of times a year, have them overnight for an extended time. This allows me and my husband to travel (often abroad) with ZERO concern/worry about the kids’ wellbeing."

• “My mother in law is really thoughtful, like extremely thoughtful. She remembers things I mention and then at Christmas or my birthday will buy me a book about it or a gift.” 

• “Since we got married she has always (subtly) acknowledged me as the most important woman in my husband’s life and never felt threatened by me or tried to assert her role. She is nothing but supportive of our relationship and our family which is huge for us. She also has a very strong relationship with the Lord and I know she is daily in prayer for our family and that means so much to me.” 

 

3 Things Mothers-in-Law Appreciated:

• Number One response was how the wife treated her son (seconded by her love of her grandchildren), such as saying my daughter-in-law “keeps a clean home for my son and grandchildren.” or I appreciate how “my daughter-in-law either vocalizes or shows in front of me her love and appreciation for my son.” and “She deeply loves my son" 

• “I like when she brings a meal to show thanks for the regular babysitting we do.” 

• “I like when she keeps me in the loop about the grandkids and how they are doing”

 

3 Challenges for a Daughter-in-Law: 

• “Honestly, I often find myself frustrated at the way she parented (or didn’t parent) her kids, which directly impacts the way my husband interacts/reacts/acts with me and the family in general.”  

• “She inserts herself, her worries, and her opinions in our lives a little too much. Like when we were moving, she wanted to keep planning and thinking through things with me, things that my husband and I needed to decide. Not her." 

• “I get frustrated being told when and where I will be, instead of being asked…such as “we’re doing Easter on Easter Sunday this year.” (with the understanding that yes, you’ll be there, and you don’t have a say in it.) Not only will I be more likely to make it work, but I’ll also have a better outlook and attitude about being there.” 

 

3 Challenges for a Mother-in-Law:

• “The general bad rap that mother-in-laws automatically have” 

• "Feeling like we are only good for babysitting.” 

• “When I do speak, it is sometimes misinterpreted and misunderstood by them. When I help in ways that I think is being helpful they perceive my help as an insult. For example, they think that I don’t think they are doing a good enough job as a mother or housekeeper. My motive is that whatever help I can give them, any job I can do for them (any cleaning or picking up, etc…) is something they don’t have to do if I do it for them which i think would give them more time to do other things. My mother did that for me and I regarded her as help I could depend on. I always welcomed my mother’s help.”

 

Encouragement from one mother-in-law to another: “I found being a good mother in law to be one of the biggest challenges I’ve ever faced. I’ve learned so many things too late! And the learning process continues…Say as little as possible and most of the time don’t speak at all, just listen. Don’t voice your opinion or give an idea or a suggestion ever never ever ever ever! Even if you disagree with what they’re saying or what they are doing. BE QUIET EXCEPT validate what they are saying and what they are doing with positive words of encouragement and praise and most of all show them kindness, love, patience, compassion, and be an understanding, sympathetic listener."

 

Encouragement from one daughter-in-law to another: “Look for the heart behind the comment. I think a lot of mother-in-law’s give unsolicited advice because they’re proud of how their son turned out, and they want to be relevant and helpful to their daughter-in-law. If we were smart we would ask for the advice because they have wisdom that we need.”

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. 

 

The topic of the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship was so popular that we decided to bring back a returning guest. Annie Chapman is the author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, and she joins us again today to answer some questions that you, the listeners, wrote in. 

 

I want everybody to know that the people who did write us questions truly had a lot of good to say about their mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, but there were also some areas where they got confused by the other person's actions. 

 

Today, we hope to bring clarity and encouragement to the in-law relationship in your life. Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to the Savvy Sauce, Annie. 

 

Annie Chapman: Well, I'm glad to be back. 

 

Laura Dugger: We're so glad to have you join us again. If anybody missed our previous interview, can you tell us a bit about yourself? [00:01:20] 

 

Annie Chapman: Well, I am a wife of going on 44 years. I have a daughter and son that are grown and six grandchildren, which is the reward for not killing your children when you want to when they're teenagers is they may grow up and reproduce and give you some incredible grandchildren. That's what we have. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. You wrote this incredible book called The Mother-in-Law Dance, and I've never seen a resource quite like it. You share so many stories that illustrate the misunderstandings that can often take place in this relationship. So do you mind just sharing a few of those stories or examples with us today? 

 

Annie Chapman: Well, I'll be glad to. The one that precipitated the actual idea of writing this book was a friend who went to her son and daughter-in-law's house and found that they had not prepared for her visit. She felt slighted that the bed wasn't made and there was no food. [00:02:21] 

 

And then to top it off, the daughter-in-law was involved with a mother-daughter event at church. She just assumed but since this girl's mother lived, you know, out of state and she was right there that she would invite her mother-in-law to go with her, and she didn't. And it hurt her feelings so bad that I saw her at the airport when she was coming home and she said, "I will never go back to that house again."

 

It made me so sad the relationship between a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law can be so fractured and sometimes over little or nothing. but still fractured. and the peace of that whole family really depends on whether that mother-in-law and daughter-in-law get along, because if they're at odds with one another, it alienates the son. 

 

This is what I say, Shame on any mother who makes her son choose between her and his wife, and shame on any son that does not choose his wife. It is fragile. And that's why we have to work so hard to make the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship strong and worthwhile, because it is. [00:03:30] We need to keep it going so that there'd be peace in the family. 

 

Laura Dugger: You have shared it all from such a God-honoring perspective. This may be a little off-topic, but is it right that you studied at Moody Institute? 

 

Annie Chapman: Yes, I graduated from there in Home Missions. I didn't even know what that meant. I originally studied music. We didn't have a piano and I wanted to learn so I made a piece of cardboard and drew the keys on it and I actually learned to play the piano on cardboard. 

 

So when I went to Moody to study music, and these kids had had piano lessons since they were three, I couldn't cut the music program. So I switched to home missions, which it's missions that are designed to be at home. Just any mission work that is done within the confines of the continental U.S. is considered home missions. 

 

Laura Dugger: Interesting. Well, thank you for sharing that. We'll get back to this topic of the relationship between a mother-in-law and daughter-in-law. It was so popular, we actually gave our listeners a chance to write questions they had about their relationship with their in-law. [00:04:36] We're going to include five of those from both perspectives. 

 

So let's start with questions from the perspective of the mother-in-law. The first one wrote, "Is it biblical to give advice only if asked? And does conventional wisdom say this is the best path to take?" 

 

Annie Chapman: I believe you keep your advice to a minimum. It works both ways. I have given advice and learned to regret it, and I have taken advice and learned to regret it. So yes, I believe we keep our advice to a bare minimum. 

 

I don't know that it's a place for a mother-in-law to teach the daughter-in-law. I know there's a lot of unmothered and unmentored young women out there. I believe that has to be only by invitation and serious invitation, where you just don't see an opening and so you decide to share all your wisdom. I think it has to be invited. [00:05:36] 

 

Now, maybe not any other relationship, but there's something about the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law, that is so... I keep coming back to the word "fragile". I just don't think that to give advice readily is a wise thing to do. 

 

Laura Dugger: So even if the mother-in-law is very wise and maybe has some wonderful knowledge to share, it wouldn't be wisest for her to offer that without the daughter-in-law approaching her and clearly asking. Is that right? 

 

Annie Chapman: That's exactly what I'm saying. I just think it's a real mistake because even if you start out and she likes what you're saying, that point when it comes that she disagrees, I don't think it's smart. But let me just add this. This is where it says older women are to teach the younger women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be keepers at home, you know, be sober-minded and all that. 

 

I believe that maybe that mother-in-law can teach a different young woman, but there should be a different older woman teaching that to that daughter-in-law. Do you know what I'm saying? [00:06:43] 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that makes a lot of sense. 

 

Annie Chapman: Yeah, there's definitely room where young girls and women need to be taught by older women. I just don't think it's the mother-in-law that should do it. 

 

Laura Dugger: Another mother-in-law wrote in: "What healthy tips do you have for establishing expectations early on regarding holidays and special occasions?"

 

Annie Chapman: I believe that it helps for them to work together. That's what happened with us. My mom and Steve's mom lived nine miles apart in West Virginia. So when we went home for holidays we went home to both families. That sounds really convenient and good, except what happens when both of them want the same day. 

 

So we put that into the hands of my mom and my mother-in-law and asked them to work that out between them. So then it left us kind of doing what our moms wanted us to do. 

 

But then in our situation, our kids live in town, their in-laws live out of town. Here's where I have to really grow up. And I found out I can't be pitiful and powerful at the same time. So I relinquish, by my will, those holidays and we have learned to celebrate occasions and not dates. [00:08:03] 

 

Sometimes we don't even get to have a Thanksgiving because both of the kids go to their in-laws and I just don't have the heart to make him eat another turkey, you know, just because it's my turn. You know, again, it comes back to being willing to serve and to be humble about it and not demand your own way. 

 

You know, Philippians 2, "Regarding the other's needs as more important than your own, not looking out for your own personal interest, but for the interest of others." And then it says, "Let this attitude be in you that was in Christ Jesus, and who was a greater servant than Jesus?" So if we're Christ followers, it's in the blueprint how we're supposed to treat each other. 

 

Laura Dugger: Another one writes in, "How do I navigate the difficulty that comes with a daughter-in-law favoring her own mother, which I know is natural?"

 

Annie Chapman: Oh yeah, of course she is. You have to accept that, that I don't want to take my daughter-in-law's... the place of her mother. I don't want to do that. [00:09:12] I had a situation where I was kind of confronted with that at my daughter's wedding. 

 

You know, when you're taking pictures and my daughter, just such a wonderful young lady, and she's standing there and her mother-in-law was on one side and I was standing there, and she says to the photographer, "Take a picture of me and my two moms." Well, I wanted to throw up in my mouth at that moment. "Hello, your two moms? Did she nurse you through measles? Did she pay for your braces?" I just, in an instant, was like, my back just kind of went up. Two moms? I'm the mother. Let's get that straight. 

 

But I had a choice at that moment to make a scene, make Heidi feel bad, make a point. I chose to step up and Heidi put her arm around both of us and we both smiled for the camera. And I'm so glad we did because that was bringing her mother-in-law into the fold. And I could have pushed her out in a moment but I chose not to do that. And that picture always reminds me that was a good choice that day to smile and to say, "It's okay, she does have a mother-in-law. It's not her mother, but that was Heidi's way of bringing her in into her love circle at that moment." [00:10:40] And so we have to choose. 

 

Now, Heidi ended up having the most amazing mother-in-law. She is so thoughtful. She is so generous. The three grandkids right this minute are in Atlanta with that mother-in-law. I'm glad that Heidi did that that day, and I'm glad that somehow I found the heart to let Heidi do what she needed to do to bring that mother-in-law into that relationship. 

 

So I don't know if that answers the question. I think mothers are, of course, they're special, but to acknowledge that there's another woman there that can be very special to that daughter, I think is important too. 

 

Laura Dugger: I don't know the background of who this is or what their story is, but let's just say that this mother-in-law is writing, maybe her daughter-in-law doesn't acknowledge her and only favors her own mother. What encouragement would you offer that mother-in-law? 

 

Annie Chapman: Oh, yeah. How hurtful can that be? Especially if the mother-in-law wants to be that special person to the daughter-in-law and wants to have a loving relationship with her and she feels pushed aside or ignored. [00:11:54] Yeah, I ran into that. I ran into that when I surveyed for the book. 

 

There's just hardly anything more painful than to watch someone that feels rejected by a daughter-in-law. I would say send cards, keep saying nice things. You know, don't be too pushy. But make sure that that door is always open, that when the daughter-in-law is willing to embrace the mother-in-law and let her in, you just have to tread pretty lightly. 

 

I'm hoping that the son is sensitive to this. You know, the son, the man, he is the key. He is the problem and he is the bridge to this relationship between these two women. You know, the subtitle, Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? Yes, but you know what? That boy in between, that man in between those two women can play a vital part. 

 

And if I was the mother and my son was allowing me to be disrespected, that would hurt me worse than if the daughter-in-law was not being nice to me. So the key to that relationship really does lie in the son. And he is the bridge that should be working to make sure that his mother feels honored and his wife feels chosen. [00:13:23] 

 

It's a sad thing. I wouldn't even know. I guess you just have to try to chip away at that iceberg and do it with kindness. You're not going to do it with confrontation. I'll give you that. I'll tell you that one. If you think you're going to go to the daughter-in-law, dress her down and berate her for not treating you right, that's not going to be the right approach. I think you've got to go and chip away at the iceberg and use some honey to do it. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. 

 

Some of you have reached out to find specific books or resources that we have mentioned in one of our episodes. That's why I'm so excited to let you know about our new Resources tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can now click on our new tab called "Resources". There you will find all the resources we've ever mentioned on all the episodes of The Savvy Sauce. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you actually support our work at The Savvy Sauce. 

 

We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode, so you can still access the websites, scripture, and recommended resources when you click on any individual episode. We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned. 

 

Another mother-in-law wrote in, "What are the most helpful boundaries that you recommend?" [00:14:40] 

 

Annie Chapman: I think the telephone. I think making sure that, you know, that there's an understanding. This has happened in our family before where my daughter and I have gotten together and we've said, let's do, you know, a birthday dinner, say. Let's do it at this time, and let's do it at this place. You contact the daughter-in-law. I'll do that a lot of times, and that's not fair to my daughter-in-law, where I'll have my daughter running interference. You call her and tell her what we're thinking. 

 

Well, that usually doesn't go very well. My daughter-in-law wants to be in the loop, and she doesn't want to be told what's gonna happen. She likes to be asked. She likes for me to be the one that clears the way with her. So, you know, that's just plain manners. And boy, is it hard to... You can be in-laws for 30 years, 40 years and, you know, one misstep and you mess things up, who knows for how long. 

 

But the important boundary is communication. You call before you come over, you call and you talk things over. And you just keep that line of communication open. That's the only thing I can think of is you just treat each other with manners. Wouldn't that take care of most boundaries if you just treat each other like you'd treat a friendly stranger? 

 

We're nicer to people at the grocery store that we don't know, we say please and thank you, and hello than we do sometimes our family members. [00:16:18] 

 

Laura Dugger: And as our fifth question from a mother-in-law, she writes in, "I'd love to know how I can be more helpful to them in general." And I think she's meaning her son and daughter-in-law. "I'd especially like to know if they'd appreciate more help with their kids." What are your thoughts? 

 

Annie Chapman: When our son and daughter-in-law didn't have children, it was hard to get them to come to see me. But when they got three kids, it's amazing how much they want to see me and how much they want help. And my saying is, being needed is almost as good as being wanted. 

 

I think as grandmothers and mothers-in-law, sometimes we might feel needed more than we feel wanted. But, you know, take what you can get. I would ask if your kids want to have help with the kids. I don't know that my daughter or my daughter-in-law has ever turned down a date night. You know, I'll keep the kids and you all can go out on a date. [00:17:21] Or how about if I keep them overnight and you can have the morning and go out for breakfast. I've never been turned down for that. 

 

So all you got to do is ask, you know, if they need more help. Now, if they think that you're undermining them when the kids are with you, if they think the kids are exposed to something they shouldn't be exposed to. I know one mother-in-law smoked. Her son didn't want the kids to come to her house. Do you choose the cigarettes or do you choose the grandkids? 

 

There's reasons why sometimes people will put up boundaries and say the kids can't come over. Maybe you have people that stop by that they don't trust. So you've got to really look at it. If my kids don't trust me with their children, why? And if it's just that they don't know that I would love to keep them, then tell them and just work that out. 

 

We're from Tennessee, so we have guns in our house. My husband is a hunter and my daughter-in-law does not like firearms at all. [00:18:27] So when she comes, everything's locked up. And when the kids are here, everything's locked up, everything is put away. And she'll ask, "Are the guns put away?" I said, "Yeah, they're in a safe. The only way they can get them out is my fingerprints." Okay. 

 

But she said, "I'm sorry, I have to ask." In order for her to feel comfortable with the kids being here, that's her baseline — she needs to know that they can't get into any guns or anything. So you have to look and be practical about that.

 

Now, what if we said, hey, we believe in the Second Amendment and we want our firearms out and stuff. Well, our grandkids aren't going to get to come stay with us. If that's the hill we're going to die on, we're not going to get our grandkids. So you just have to work with each other. Tell them you'd like to keep the kids. Find out if there is a reason they don't want you to keep the kids and fix that if you can. 

 

Laura Dugger: Those are great examples. And now we're going to flip it to the other side, to the perspective of the daughter-in-law. So one writes in and she said, "Can you describe an appropriate relationship between a daughter-in-law and mother-in-law?" And she goes on to give us a little bit of context. She said, "How necessary is it for me to pursue a growing relationship with my mother-in-law? I'm content with our current relationship and honestly prefer to keep a bit of distance." [00:19:47] 

 

Annie Chapman: Well, that happens. You know, not everybody is all lovey-dovey. And I wonder if the mother-in-law is just as content. You know, if there's not conflict there. I would kind of take a cue from my husband. He might know maybe there's reason to have a little distance there. 

 

But you know, as long as they're cordial and kind to one another, maybe acknowledge birthdays or, you know, where they're not just ignoring each other and being mean, but maybe they don't want to spend a whole lot of time together. There's a lot of people in my life that I can be nice to and cordial, even family members, but you don't particularly want to spend the afternoon sitting around the pool with. 

 

So I guess there's other people... If the mother-in-law and father-in-law are okay with that, if the husband's okay with it, then I guess you keep a nice cordiality about it. But maybe not have to be, you know, lean in so far to be extremely close. [00:20:49] 

 

Laura Dugger: You're saying it's not biblically mandated that you need to pursue a growing relationship with your mother-in-law at all times? 

 

Annie Chapman: I think when that happens, it's wonderful. To say that it's always going to happen... This is what I found when I did these surveys. There wasn't a whole lot of ambivalent feelings between mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law. There was either "I have the best" or "do I have a chapter for you". It was like hot and cold. I didn't find a lot of just lukewarm relationships, but I'm sure that there are. 

 

And if this is one of those lukewarm that, you know, kind of take it or leave it, I don't know that I would press in too far because usually people do things for a reason. And if there's distance, there may be a reason for that. And if it's not a conflict, but it's just kind of an ambivalence between them, maybe you go with that. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think that makes a lot of sense. The next question is from multiple daughters-in-law, so we're going to combine it because they were both in different situations. They write, "What are some guidelines for the recommended amount of help to expect if you are raising grandchildren close to your mother-in-law? And then the same thing when you live far away from your in-laws." [00:22:11]

 

Annie Chapman: This was a very interesting part I found as I researched for the book. There were grandmothers who wanted to be completely hands-on every week. Myself, this is what I do. Every Tuesday I have my daughter's three. They spend the night. I wash their hair, I give them baths, I send them home in clean clothes, take them to their music lessons, and then deliver them at noon... Because they're homeschooled, we can do this. Deliver them at noon on Wednesday. 

 

And the kids, they say their favorite day of the week is Tuesday because they get to do this. It's a lot of effort on my part. I pay them to practice their musical instruments. Thus, my 13-year-old granddaughter is an incredible violinist. The 10-year-old can play the mandolin, and the 6-year-old plays the drums. We have children following different musical tastes. But I do this, and I love it. [00:23:15] 

 

I have friends who, if you told them they were going to have to give up two of their days, would say, "Hey, I raised my kids. I don't want to do that." I also take my son's children on Fridays and they spend the night Friday nights and we deliver them sometime on Saturday. 

 

It's a gift that I give my children that I'm willing to give. Not every grandmother wants four of her days. occupied with grandkids. And you can't fault the mother-in-law if she doesn't want to keep them all the time. When my husband is gone, when I have the kids, I always say, they're going to cry harder at my funeral than they'll cry at yours. Because how do they know us unless they spend time with us? 

 

So what do we expect? I don't think you can expect that out of the grandmothers and grandfathers, but I think you can appreciate it and show appreciation when they're willing to do it. If you ask and they say no... I mean, I know personally a grandmother who does not want to keep her grandkids. It's just her choice. And she said, "I raised my kids. I'm not raising someone else's." It's a choice she's made. [00:24:26] 

 

Now, it's not a choice that I want to make. But the word in that question that catches me is "expectation". What can I expect? And I think maybe that's the problem, is we shouldn't expect, we shouldn't assume. We should offer. And if it's accepted, be grateful for that. 

 

Now, as far as far away, you know, that's a whole different animal of how you relate to your grandkids. I'm so glad that there's Skype and there's ways to keep in touch. Heidi's mother-in-law lives out of town, and she's got her grandkids this week for a week, and she does this at least a couple of times a year. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

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Laura Dugger: The next daughter-in-law wrote, "How much should you talk to your mother-in-law about issues in your relationship? It seems like tricky waters. You don't want to rail on her beloved son, but she also has a lot of insight into him and his behavior." [00:26:35] 

 

Annie Chapman: That's an easy question for me to answer. You don't criticize your husband to his mother. I think that's a real mistake. If you need help as a wife, there are counselors, there's people to talk to. I don't think you criticize her son. Because in a real sense, it's not criticizing her son, it almost feels like you're blaming the mother. If you criticize him, she feels blamed. If you praise him, she takes the credit. 

 

So I just think it's a real mistake. For one thing, she can't help what he's doing. Her mommy days are over. He is not her baby. He is that woman's husband. And so to burden that mother with information that she can't do anything about, especially if they want her to butt out and keep her nose out of their business, to tell her things that will only compound that and hurt her. 

 

If the wife is expecting the mom to go and chastise the husband for doing certain things, she's expecting that mother to start mothering him again and then he is again the child. I don't think that's a good situation. So I would say if you can't say something nice about her son, don't say anything at all. 

 

Laura Dugger: The next one writes in and says, "Is it biblical, this idea of spoiling the grandchildren and then giving them back to the parents?" [00:28:09] She says, "I believe it's more biblical to ally together for a greater good. Can you provide any wisdom here?"

 

Annie Chapman: I don't think that it's the job of the grandparents to make the job of the parents more difficult. For some reason, our grandkids always behave better with us than they do their parents. And my daughter-in-law asked me that one day. She said, "Why don't they cry when they're with you? Why don't they demand when they're with you?" I said, "We're not the prize. Your attention is their prize. They're just used to a different way here."

 

When my grandkids start to fuss and cry at my house, they call me Didi, I say, "At Didi's house, there's only love and happiness. Let's see smiles." I don't even let them think that they're allowed to be mean at Didi's house or have fights or anything. It's like, "Oh, that's not what we do here." Well, when they go home, it's a whole different setting. [00:29:09] 

 

And so I don't want to spoil them, but I do want them to have good memories of being at our house. I want there to be joy and happiness. 

 

The way I look at it, a parent's job is to create and develop and build character in their children, because you're building little temples where God wants to dwell. That's the definition of parenting. The definition of grandparenting to me is making wonderful memories. 

 

Now, that's a different skill set than building temples where God wants to dwell. Of course, we come alongside and we don't tear down what the parents are doing. We want to add to it, but I want memories, good memories when they come to my house. 

 

We do things a little differently here. I pay the children. I said I paid them to practice their musical instruments. I also pay them to memorize scripture. [00:30:12] And I tell them what chapters. They don't get to memorize one of the short Psalms. They've memorized Psalm 91. They've memorized 1 Corinthians 13, Colossians 3, different passages. I pay them to do that because I want God's Word in them. 

 

Now, that's not something necessarily that their parents can do. But I can do it. And they want money so they do memorize. And I do pay them for practicing their instruments. The other day, I said, "Y'all are breaking the bank because I had to pay them so much money because they're doing such good things." 

 

So I feel like I am contributing to them. But my job is not to raise them. My job is to let them enjoy life at Didi and Papa's house, and I pay them to have fun. 

 

Laura Dugger: You sound like such a dream. This is so wonderful. I love that you're still allying with them for the greater good because your way of making memories, you're still pointing them to scripture and different things. Can you give more examples of what it looks like for the grandparents to tear down the temple? [00:31:24] 

 

Annie Chapman: We want them to have a unique and a fabulous experience when they come to our house, but we want that to build on what the parents are doing. My grand-girls, their dad has set a rule that until they have read their Bibles and practiced their musical instruments, they're not allowed to have any screen time. 

 

You know, when they want to look at my iPad or my phone, they're pretty self-policed, you know, because they know... I'll just say, have you done what your dad asked you to do? Have you done your Bible and your music? And if they say yes, then I say, what do you want to see on the screen? It's usually they want to look at American Girl dolls and so I'll let them do that. And then there's a time restriction. 

 

The parents have set these rules, which I appreciate because I don't want their faces stuck in a screen all the time here too. I want them to do puzzles. I want them to do art. [00:32:26] Steve's a wonderful artist and for a whole year of homeschool, he did art class with them. They don't have time to sit and watch television and stuff like that when they're here because we have a lot of other things. I say, "You can do that anytime. I want us to do this." 

 

And now in the mornings when they wake up or after they get their work done, if they want to watch a VeggieTale, that's fine. But no, my job is not to undo what their parents have done. It's to build on it. I don't feel like I have to replicate everything their parents are doing, but I definitely want to build on to what they're doing. 

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you for that clarification. And the final question from a daughter-in-law's perspective, she says, "What are some practical ways to honor a mother-in-law even when you as the daughter-in-law feel disrespected?" 

 

Annie Chapman: Oh, isn't that a sad question? What an incredible daughter-in-law that she's thinking in those terms. [00:33:25] I have several examples in the book of women like this. I would encourage her to get the book and read it because I think she can find a lot of different ideas and things she can do. 

 

I have a chapter called Dance Lessons and it's things that women have done, both mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law, to build that bridge, to make each other feel loved and respected. 

 

But for this daughter-in-law who doesn't feel respected, but she wants to make her mother-in-law feel good, that says a whole lot about her. Cards and calling her. My husband calls his mom a lot. But I can always tell when I call her, it's a different experience for her. And even after 44 years, we still are very careful to show each other love and respect. 

 

So, for me to call her when it's not my husband calling her, to check on her, I always... when we go see her, I always go. She's two hours away, could easily be just my husband to go see his mom. I make the effort to go. I always take her. I make cookies. She likes oatmeal cookies. She likes banana bread. [00:34:38] I take all kinds of things like that. And when she's here, I always have honey buns and I have the foods that she likes. But it's just the little things. 

 

So if this daughter-in-law is not feeling respected, but she wants to show love, which I would say, what a wonderful way to love her husband is to show respect to his mother, whether she's a stinker or not. She's loving her husband when she does that, because I feel that way when I do for my mother-in-law. It's just another way for me to love my husband. She can do that with acts of kindness. 

 

Laura Dugger: This time today has been so helpful. What is one hopeful story that you would want to leave with us today? 

 

Annie Chapman: There's a story in the book that I really appreciate, and it was a woman who lived next door to her mother-in-law for many years. The mother-in-law was never really kind to her. In fact, the daughter-in-law said that one Christmas she got binoculars for Christmas because she wanted to spy on her, make sure that no one was coming and going from her house. [00:35:42] 

 

She said, I never gave my mother-in-law ever a reason to distrust me. But she had had such a rough life. Her husband had cheated on her, so she assumed that everyone was like that. She said, "I just tried so hard to love her. And then when it came down to the end, she said, she had friends that would say, "Well, don't take her to the doctor. Don't do for her. She's never done anything for you." And she said, "Yeah, but she doesn't have anybody else to take care of her." 

 

And that daughter-in-law, regardless of how the mother-in-law had been in the past, to the very end, she was so kind to her. And she said when it came down to the end, she never was sure that the mother-in-law ever truly loved her. But she said at the end, she could look that mother-in-law in the face and say, "I am so glad that I was your daughter-in-law because you've taught me so many things." [00:36:41] 

 

And she said one of the things she didn't say to the mother-in-law is "You've taught me how to never treat my daughter-in-law like this". But somehow she was able to keep kindness, she was able to keep consideration and helpfulness and to serve that mother-in-law up to the very end regardless. 

 

I think I came away admiring her because she didn't do that out of weakness. She didn't treat her mother-in-law nice because she was intimidated by her. She did that out of strength and deliberately. I want to be that kind of person. 

 

I have not been challenged in that way. I have a wonderful mother-in-law. Were we perfect? No. Did we get on each other's nerves from time to time? Yeah. Did we say it? Hardly ever. And that's the kind of person I want to be. I want to make sure I'm a good in-law to my daughter-in-law. Do we get on each other's nerves? Yeah. Do we talk about it? Mm, sometimes. Does it hurt my feelings? Uh-huh. [00:37:47] But I want to be able to end my life and say, I mirrored and I showed Jesus to the people that I love the most. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. Thank you for sharing that story. Our listeners know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And now as we conclude, we would love to hear your wise and practical tips. So please share with us, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Annie Chapman: My savvy sauce kind of emanates from a chapter in the Bible I've kind of been living in this spring. It's Psalm 90. I didn't know Moses ever wrote a psalm, but he wrote a psalm and it's Psalm 90. He wrote it after his brother Aaron and his sister Miriam had died and he was facing his life. 

 

There's some familiar passages in there. The one that says that we may have 70 years, 80 by strength, a thousand years in the sight of God is like a day or watching the night, which is three or four hours. [00:38:48] But then there's a verse that I've been really contemplating. It says, Teach me to number my days aright, that I might gain a heart of wisdom. 

 

Well, I have mulled that over and chewed on that verse. And for the longest time, I thought, teach me to number my days aright. And I kind of centered on the word "number". So I put 365 times 70. Neither of my parents lived to be 80. So I said, Well, maybe I'll be closer to 70. And I subtracted how old, I ended up with like 1,200 days. And I thought, wow, that's not very happy thought, you know, teach me to number my days aright. Okay, I'm gonna die. That's what I came up with. 

 

One night I was sleeping and the Lord spoke to me in my sleep because I was really contemplating that verse. He said, you're looking at the wrong word. When I woke up the next morning, I thought, I'm looking at the wrong word. Teach me to number. I was looking at the word "number". He said, don't look at the number, look at the word "aright". Teach me to number my days aright, that I might gain a heart of wisdom. 

 

And I thought, okay, how do I want to number my days aright? There's a right way to do it and a wrong way. The wrong way to number your days is, say, I have 1,200 days left and then I'm gonna die. The right way to number your days is to say, what am I gonna do with the days that I have left? And what I've concluded, and this is what I want on my tombstone, I want to live each day loving unconditionally, live each day serving joyfully, and live each day forgiving quickly. That's how I want to live my life, and that's how I want to number my days aright that I might gain a heart of wisdom. [00:40:41] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Annie, you are just a delightful person to chat with. Thank you for seeking God on this important topic and these relationships that we've discussed today, and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. 

 

Annie Chapman: Well, thank you for giving me this chance to share with these ladies. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:41:44] 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:42:49] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:50] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

51 Bonus Episode! God is Faithful in Motherhood with Counselor, Wife, and Mother to 5, Aja Duncan

51. Bonus Episode: God is Faithful in Motherhood with Counselor, Wife, and Mother to 5, Aja Duncan

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 16:9 (NIV) “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.”

 

Aja' Duncan is a wife, mother of 5, and works full time as a therapist. 
She received her Master's in Marriage and Family therapy at Richmont Graduate University with a specialization in Child & Adolescent therapy. Currently she is a licensed professional counselor (LPC) , licensed addiction counselor (LAC), and specializes in integrated care. She works for her local hospital system's outpatient psychiatry department.
She is well supported by her mother who is a "live-in granny nanny".
She and her children enjoy supporting her coach of a husband at football games, where the community feels like a second family.She has a love for the arts and in her "me" time can be found in dance fitness classes or at her local Bible Study Fellowship (BSF) group.

Retail me not 

Aja's Recommended Pulled Barbecue Chicken Instant-pot Recipe

Aja's Recommended Instant-pot Lentil Soup Recipe

Instant-pot Butternut Squash Soup Recipe 

Nutribullet Baby Food Recipes

 

Aja's Nutribullet Baby Food Recipe:

2-3 oz formula or breast milk

1/2 cup spinach

1 carrot 

1/2 peeled apple or banana or blueberries (or ALL!)

 

Put spinach in the Nutribullet first and then add remaining ingredients

 

(You can add more formula/ milk depending on the consistency you want and the age of your baby)

 

As your baby gets older, experiment with other fruits and veggies but beware of greens that cause gas!

 

I would usually double or triple this recipe so that I could freeze the extra in silicone baby food storage trays. It would take care of feedings for a week!

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: A Perfect Promotion is a promotional marketing company with locations in Illinois and Indiana. They specialize in logoed items as well as screen printing and embroidery. Contact them through their website, aperfectpromotion.com, and let A Perfect Promotion help you with your next business event or promotion. 

 

Some of you know I didn't become a Christian until the day before graduate school. But that season at Richmont Graduate University in Atlanta, Georgia is where I met some of my favorite friends in life. 

 

Aja is one of those. She is a loving wife and a working mother of five children. She's going to share some vulnerable parts of her motherhood journey, in addition to practical tips for living with a big family. 

 

Speaking of a big family, between the two of us, we have eight children, and so this recording was especially loud and lively in the background, so I am very sorry for the distracting noises, but I hope you'll still give it a listen. Here's our chat. [00:01:27] 

 

Hi, Aja. 

 

Aja Duncan: Hi. 

 

Laura Dugger: So glad to have you today. For anyone who doesn't know you yet, will you just start by sharing a bit about yourself? 

 

Aja Duncan: Yes. My name is Aja. I am 35 years old, and I am married and a mother of five little ones, ages eight months to eight years old. We live in Greenville, South Carolina, and actually, my mother has been with us. She actually lives with us right now to help out because I work and my husband works. I work as a licensed professional counselor out here in Greenville, South Carolina for the local hospital system. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's awesome. And your husband has a pretty fun job as well. 

 

Aja Duncan: Yeah. He's a football coach. He's at North Greenville University here, which is about 10 minutes from where we are right now. It's just a great atmosphere and it's fun for us and the kids. 

 

Laura Dugger: I've only visited Greenville once, but it was awesome. They're lucky to have you. Well, I love your story. So can you just share, how did you come to know Jesus and have a personal relationship with him?

 

Aja Duncan: So, as they say, I quote-unquote, "grew up in the church". My mom got saved probably around the stage that I am right now. [00:02:37] We were very highly active in the church. She actually ran the drama ministry and I did some plays with her. I was on the dance ministry. 

 

I always felt like, oh, I'm a Christian because I go to church and I'm quote-unquote, "a good person". And I don't think it was until I was 17 years old, a youth pastor came to our church and just talked about how our lives are not our own, but they are meant to serve the Lord. 

 

I think that that's the first time that I really challenged my own perspective on what being a Christian was and said, oh, okay, so this thing really isn't about me or how good I am or not good I am. This is really about Jesus and the fact that He died and He wants me to serve Him with my life. And I think that's really when I kind of started on the journey of wanting a different type of personal relationship with Him and really kind of delved into what that looked like and meant. 

 

Laura Dugger: From previous conversations we've had, you mentioned life has not gone how you expected. So will you tell us what you mean by that and what God has been teaching you through this journey? [00:03:44] 

 

Aja Duncan: Yes. You know, we girls, we probably do a really good job when we're younger of kind of trying to plan out our lives. I want to get married at this age, and I want this many kids, and I want to be doing this. And you know, you think about the way you want your life to look and you hope and expect that it will turn out that way. And mine has not. 

 

So we always joke, well, my mom jokes that I used to always say, and I remember that I wanted five kids. Well, as I started having kids, I said, No, I don't want five kids. But I have five kids. And that just was not in the plan, just to be quite honest. I was not a proponent of birth control. So I've never used birth control. And people look at me, and they're like, Well, then that's why you have five kids. That was just kind of a personal choice for me. 

 

But still, even with that, it was just not in the plan. I didn't plan on having five kids in eight years. So it's been a lot. And who would have thought my mom would live with us? I mean, just so many things have happened in our marriage and in our lives that I'm just like, Okay, so here we are. [00:04:54] 

 

And I can say too that probably after number two, we just weren't happy campers when we found out that we were pregnant. And I'm just being totally transparent. We love our kids, but it just was not the plan that we had. That wasn't the future that we envisioned for ourselves. 

 

If you would have told me eight years ago that I was going to have five kids, I would have melted and probably passed out and died. But the Lord has been so gracious to us with these children. I don't know. I think it's pretty easy. I know that sounds crazy to say, but it's probably easier than it was when we had two or three because they are each other's friends and they play with each other and they love each other and they love us well and they allow us to love them well, if that even makes sense.

 

We just look at them and they've made our lives so full. and everything that we thought we would lose out on because we were going to have five kids, we have gained actually. Every day, I'm just in awe of how the Lord has provided for us and allows me to work and allows us to have full lives, even with a full house. [00:06:05] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you say that the things that you thought you would lose, you've actually gained. Can you unpack that a little bit? 

 

Aja Duncan: I could never imagine having five kids and paying for daycare. I just thought I was going to have to give up working. I love being a therapist. I can't [finagle?] it. And the Lord has blessed us that my mom has come to live with us. I know that not everybody has that, but I really feel like that's the provision that was given to us so that I could work. 

 

I pay her, but I don't have to pay astronomical daycare costs and the peace that actually has come with these kids. Don't get me wrong, we have our super stress days where it's just like I'm tired and I'm done. But not in the way that you would think. The Lord has actually given us peace and joy because of these kids. Our lives are more full. Whereas we thought that we would be drained, we're actually filled every day. 

 

Laura Dugger: When we used to live in the same city, it was a time before any of us had children, but you and your husband always had a sweet relationship. So what about that side of it? It's full, you said, with work and children. Are you and Maurice still feeling like you have a lot of time to connect? [00:07:20] 

 

Aja Duncan: It ebbs and flows, to be quite honest with you. I got pregnant on our honeymoon, so that is one thing that we have kind of struggled with, that we didn't have a time to secure our own relationship before I got pregnant and we started having kids. That's been hard, and I know it's really hard on him 

 

But I think that we've been pretty diligent at trying to find our own times. Thankfully, our families and friends are pretty supportive. And sometimes they feel sorry for us. They're like, "Let us watch the kids so you all can reconnect." 

 

We try to find time, and it's really seasonal. There was probably a season of the year where we had date nights, and we got trips on our own after number four. And now after number five, it hasn't been so much. But we've kind of made our date nights like at-home nights when everybody's in the bed. Like, we'll just kind of cuddle up and watch Netflix each night. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yeah, you just make it work. Is there any scripture that has been especially personal to encourage you in work or in marriage or motherhood? [00:08:21] 

 

Aja Duncan: Yeah. Romans 15:13 says, "I pray that God, the source of hope, will fill you completely with joy and peace because you trust in him. Then you will overflow with confident hope through the power of the Holy Spirit." Just the word "hope and joy and peace" are things that we need, but most of all, trust. I've learned trust beyond what I could have imagined that I would need to trust God in this process of. 

 

But everything that I am and that we're doing here, I could tell you countless story after story about how God is just kind of... it's just been amazing. He's come through for us. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, and if you could even choose one of those stories, which one comes to mind for a way that He's provided for you unexpectedly? 

 

Aja Duncan: Really, we had done our whole lives in Atlanta. We got married while we were living in Atlanta. We had our first four kids in Atlanta. So I never imagined that we would move. But when my husband got the job interview, everything in our lives was just kind of in turmoil a little bit. [00:09:25] We couldn't find a house to buy. I didn't really like my job that much. 

 

And then the church that we had been planted in for years was kind of splitting off and we just couldn't decide. It was just a time of grief. So when we moved here, I jumped on it. I went on job interviews before we even moved and I secured a job. We had saved up money. We were going to buy a house. And when we got here, the job couldn't start me for basically six or seven months. Maurice took a huge pay cut. And I had to take kind of a little contract job that wasn't paying much. And I was at home and it was just... I think I fell into a depression. But what the Lord did through that time... like He met us where we were, I was able to join a Bible study. 

 

Even with buying our house, I would say technically we were homeless for about a week because we had nowhere to go. I think we moved five times in six months, and it was just hard because we had all the kids. But when it was time to finally buy a house, I was scared because I wasn't working full time. [00:10:30] 

 

Just one little miracle that I call it is that my job sent me the wrong contract. They sent me a contract for a full-time position and it wasn't mine, my position. But I was able to send that to the mortgage company and they approved us for a loan or else we wouldn't have been able to move. Actually, the day that we closed on our house was the day we had to move out of the place we were renting. It was just crazy. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness, that's wild. And this one, backing up a little bit, you had kind of touched on it, and I know this is different for everyone, but which transition was most difficult for you?

 

Aja Duncan: Going from two children to three. Like they say, that outnumbers you. And then our third one was really colicky. 

 

Laura Dugger: So that's interesting to hear because you do have five children. So it wasn't going from three to four or four to five. What's your theory on that why it was more difficult from two till three? 

 

Aja Duncan: I think the first two were just manageable. Again, we just never planned any of our pregnancies. So every one was a surprise. And I think that especially my husband was about done with surprises by the third one. [00:11:39] So the fact that it was a surprise and then we were outnumbered. 

 

My second and third one were 19 months apart. And then the fact that our third one was just kind of a rough baby. So we had had so many transitions already and I think we were just tired and drained. 

 

Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. And now, if you could be giving advice to yourself years ago, maybe when you were going from two to three children, what advice would you have given yourself back then? 

 

Aja Duncan: I would have told myself, everything has a season. Everything has a beginning and an end. Because when you're in it, you feel like it'll never end. Like, this is my life. I'm just going to be stressed. And you can't see the forest from the trees. But if I could go back, I would tell myself to just hang in there, this too shall pass, and you will get through it. 

 

Laura Dugger: Do you have any practical tips to share for mamas who are maybe in that season right now? [00:12:40] 

 

Aja Duncan: Acceptance has been a big word for me. So kind of accepting whatever season I'm in, whether it's with myself or my husband or my kids. Especially with the kids, just accepting that they're growing and they have to go through their seasons, whether it's crying or joyful or, you know, disobedience, whatever it is. But they do, they transition and they grow and things are not always as they look. 

 

Laura Dugger: What do you mean by that, things aren't always as they look? 

 

Aja Duncan: I just remember being super anxious about different things. Oh gosh, baby fell off the bed. He's going to grow... He's got a brain injury and he's got... you know, things like that. It just seems like it's going to be so awful. I don't know. Children are resilient and families are resilient. What I used to think was just a bleak future really has been much of a brighter one than I thought it would be.

 

Laura Dugger: That is encouraging. This is switching gears a little bit But your husband has gone a lot with work. Do you ever struggle with resentment whether it's toward him or just anything with being a mother? [00:13:59] 

 

Aja Duncan: Honestly, yeah I do because I work as well. Sometimes I can feel like, well, why is everything on me when we both work? Why am I still expected to do more and to be more? And then, you know, when you need help and you just feel like, I need daddy here with me to help. Honestly, there's been many conversations that we've had where I've just had to be like, "Look, I'm really resenting you right now. I don't think that this is fair, how this is working." 

 

The one part of me I'll say, "Hey, well then I'll just stay home, but that's not really feasible. And it's really not what I want. I'd probably be saying that out of anger if anything. But I really just kind of us figuring out even what our roles are because, you know, society is different and a lot of families have two working parents, and trying to define who does what can be very difficult. 

 

Laura Dugger: It sounds like part of the way that you overcome it is confronting it head-on with your husband in a loving way through conversation. Are there any other ways that you've learned to overcome resentment? [00:15:07] 

 

Aja Duncan: Definitely, like you said, the open communication, but also just kind of taking the joy in serving my family. In a way, this might be a little selfish, but I know that sometimes I get to choose things that I maybe wouldn't get to if he was home all the time. So it gives me a little bit more control. Not that that's the best thing in the world, but I have to take what I can get and find the positives. But yeah, I think our saving grace is that we have really open communication with each other. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think that'll be really helpful to a lot of people that can relate. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

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Laura Dugger: How do you make self-care a reality? 

 

Aja Duncan: I make sure that I kind of almost demand time for myself. Not that I'm yelling or screaming, but I used to feel guilty for maybe what I would call self-care, taking care of myself, but now I've kind of learned if I want to work out, I'll maybe do a 30-minute class on my lunch break that doesn't interfere with anybody, or I love to do like dance classes and Zumba, so my family understands that that's kind of my outlet. 

 

So I'll try to do that a couple days a week and then I have a couple friends where we just kind of do girls nights out. And again, you know, it's kind of this is my self-care night. And I try not to do it very often. Maybe once every other week as far as going out without the kids with my girls. [00:17:33] I just have had to communicate to my family that this is what mommy needs. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so good and practical because a lot of moms that we talk to bring up repeatedly this topic of guilt. So is there anything that you would recommend or any way that you coach yourself through that guilt? 

 

Aja Duncan: I did struggle with that in the beginning, but I guess I have to look at my kids and tell myself the reality of what I see before me is that my kids are well cared for. I love them. I really do. I love them. There's nothing in me that questions that. And for that, I have to say, if they're well taken care of, if I love them, I know that they are receiving love, then really where does my guilt stem from? 

 

Usually, when I get to the root of it, it has nothing to do with anything that's permanent or matters. It's usually based on my own lofty expectations or the expectations of the world. And I've really come to accept that I cannot do it all and that that's okay and that nobody is expecting me to do it all. And Jesus has not called me to be super mom or to make sure my kids are this and that. [00:18:46] 

 

My high school senior quote came out of Proverbs, it said, many are the plans in a man's heart, but it's God who will see it to completion. And that is just... I didn't know at the time, but that has ruled my life. I've had so many plans, so many things that I thought I should do or make happen. And really it's the Lord who has made the plans actually happen. I can't rest in guilt. I have to rest in what I know about Him and what He has kind of given me. He has given me some things that I do well, but there are other things that I don't, and I've just accepted those. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think that that will offer a lot of freedom to people listening today. What are some things that you've released yourself of through these seasons? 

 

Aja Duncan: I've let go of the fact that I'm just not gonna always have a very clean home. Kids live here and while I want them to be clean, I also want them to be kids and there's a balance. I will probably have to cook massive meals almost every night if I don't want to take them out to eat. I've also kind of given up selfishness. I don't think I realized it was selfishness but this whole thing of me wanting to do me, I guess if you want to say. I want to have my cake and eat it too. I want to be the best therapist, the career mom, you know, but I also want to be the PTA mom. Like I can't, so I can't volunteer at school like I used to. [00:20:20] 

 

Also, people will look at me sometimes, as you know, and they'll say, Oh, you're Supermom. I've actually had to intentionally give that even title up to the Lord because I found myself the more I would hear it, the more I felt the need to cater to it. Okay, well, Supermom means I have to do this and be this and be that. It was driving me nuts. And I just said, I have to surrender even that title to the lord. Like I don't even know what that means anymore. I don't want to be super mom, you know? 

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. before we started recording today, I totally said, Oh my goodness, you're like super mom. You were just flying in from work and transitioning back home, clicking on to record this. So I apologize. 

 

Aja Duncan: No. It's okay. It's okay. No. It's a really new thing. I'm trying to get into it because it's only because I internalize it in a way that makes me anxious. I take it as a compliment when people say it, but I know for me, I have to really surrender that to the Lord because I know if I take it in, I'll start wanting to be that. [00:21:30] And like I said, I don't know what that really looks like. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is such a healthy response. What is a message that you want to leave listeners with today? 

 

Aja Duncan: I would say whatever life you have right now, whatever setup the Lord has given you, whether it be friends or family, marriage, to take it and embrace it as much as possible because The Lord does everything for us personally and uniquely. He knows exactly what you need to grow, to be sharpened, to be the best you that He wants you to be. 

 

And so for me, I guess it was having five kids. Maybe would have picked another path in the past, but I see now why He had to do it this way. And so I would encourage your listeners to trust that whatever their life looks like right now, the Lord made it that way for a reason. And to take advantage of it and not to think that it's for nothing, really. Everything that is, is for a reason and for a purpose. [00:22:44]  

 

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So what are your best tips for surviving the four to five o'clock hour with toddlers? [00:23:41] 

 

Aja Duncan: I would say snacks because that's usually the snack time for us. Some nice healthy snacks to kind of get them recentered. and then playing outside. Like it's usually a snack and go play outside. 

 

Laura Dugger: What are some easy healthy foods or snacks that you eat or that you feed your family? 

 

Aja Duncan: So we are huge on peanut butter bread in our house. We're always doing peanut butter bread. You know, the little ants on a log where you get a celery stick, put some peanut butter on it and some raisins. They like that. They actually have really gotten to like my NutriBullets. I always put spinach in there and I put some fun fruits in it and they think it's a smoothie. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's fun. What are you currently reading or listening to? 

 

Aja Duncan: Right now I am reading a book from a sweet lady that I met. There's this FCA camp that we go to every year for Christian coaches' families. It's called May Bell's Daughter, but it kind of just chapters her life. I know this woman, she's a God-fearing woman. She was paralyzed from the waist down at 17 from a car accident, and it just kind of tells her story about her walk with the Lord. [00:24:57] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. How do you intentionally push back against culture? 

 

Aja Duncan: I really try to be intentional about the way that I'm raising my children as far as pushing back against culture because I'm really concerned with the upcoming generation that they're going to be in. I'm not on Instagram, I don't have a Twitter account. I really try to limit my children's exposure. 

 

I mean, they watch TV and they play games on the phone, but I really try to limit their internet time. They don't watch Disney Channel. They're just certain things that I'm just pre-preparing for as far as not really wanting them to feel like some things in this culture are okay. 

 

Laura Dugger: And with such a big family, what are some creative ways that you've found to save money? 

Aja Duncan: Yard sales and confinement shops. I'm addicted. I have literally outfitted all these kids for all these years in yard sales. You couldn't believe the deals that I found. [00:26:04] 

 

I do Publix BOGOs every week. I get my shopping list ready on Wednesdays because that's when they start over. I go through their BOGOS and make me a shopping list off of that. I also do a lot of RetailMeNot app. You basically can google wherever you're going whether it's shopping for clothes or at restaurants. You just kind of type in the name of the place and they'll go give you coupons that you can use there or tell you the latest deals. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Aja Duncan: I'll do a couple of really simple ones. Instapots, those pressure cookers. Oh my gosh, they're heavenly. They make my life so simple. You don't have to defrost the meat. You just throw frozen meat in there. Throw a whole bunch of healthy stuff in there. Stuff is done in like 10 or 20 minutes and have a big family and it holds enough for that. That is my saving grace. So simple, but true. [00:27:12] 

 

Laura Dugger: Yeah, I love that. If you have any recipes that you recommend, we could link to those in the show notes. 

 

Aja Duncan: Yes, I will so do that. 

 

Laura Dugger: That'd be awesome. Off the top of your head, what are a few of your family's favorites? 

 

Aja Duncan: We're trying to get more of a vegetarian, just eating more beans. There's a lentil butternut squash soup that has spinach in it. Of course, like I said, lentils, butternut squash, and a couple other vegetables. It's so good. My kids actually liked it because the butternut squash has a cool taste that they liked. Yeah, that's my favorite right now. I'll definitely send you the link to that one. I've been making baby food in my Nutribullet. That's pretty fun too.

 

Laura Dugger: There's something therapeutic about making your own baby food. I don't know why. 

 

Aja Duncan: They're so cute. 

 

Laura Dugger: Any other savvy tips before we go today? 

 

Aja Duncan: Let your kids play outside. It's so good for them. 

 

Laura Dugger: Aja, this time together was just such a treat. I love connecting with you. Whenever we chat, I just feel calm and at ease. You just exude the peace that comes from the Lord. So thank you for sharing that with us today. [00:28:20] 

 

Aja Duncan: Thank you, Laura. And I love you. And just for all your listeners, I have always loved Laura. She has been the same and a constant from when I met her. What was that? I guess 11 years ago. Yeah, you have been the same. I just love you. And I miss you. Your questions really kind of made me think through things. It was very reflective for me, so I appreciate that. They're good questions. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, you are so encouraging. Thank you. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:29:35] 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:30:40] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:31:41] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.