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Monday Aug 05, 2019
Monday Aug 05, 2019
65. Simple Solutions to Help You Prepare For, Enrich, or Save Your Marriage with Dr. Matthew Turvey, Director of WinShape Marriage
**Transcript Below**
Isaiah 61:3 (NIV) “and provide for those who grieve in Zion — to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his spender.”
Matthew Turvey, Psy.D. has been a licensed psychologist since 2003 and has worked with countless couples all over the globe to strengthen their marriages. As Director of WinShape Marriage, Dr. Turvey cultivates programs and experiences that inspire couples in all stages of marriage to move toward moments of breakthrough in their relationships. He’s often found leading couples on marriage adventure experiences in exciting locations, guiding couples toward healing, and serving as a liaison for mental, spiritual and relational resources for WinShape Foundation and Chick-fil-A staff.
Dr. Turvey’s family came to WinShape after two years in Lima, Peru where he served the emotional and relational needs of the missionary and international community. Prior to this, he served as vice president of Life Innovations where he helped revise the widely-used PREPARE-ENRICH marriage assessment and trained thousands of pastors and counselors in its use. Dr. Turvey worked with Gary Smalley earlier in his career. He continues to offer a unique perspective on achieving and maintaining healthy relationships through partnerships with numerous well-known authors and experts in the marriage and family field.
Married since 1996, he enjoys traveling with his wife, Nicole, and their four children, with whom they’ve visited six continents. The Turveys are continually journeying through marriage and parenting with an open heart, a sense of humor, and a constant clinging to Proverbs 16:9, knowing that while the mind of man plans his way, the Lord directs his steps.
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Sacred Pathways by Gary Thomas
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcript**
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <Music>
Laura Dugger: If you've listened to The Savvy Sauce for long, you know how much I enjoy FabFitFun, which is a seasonal subscription box. I will share more details later in this episode, specifically how you can receive over $200 worth of products for less than $40 just by using the code SAVVY at checkout when you visit fabfitfun.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Whether your marriage is in crisis or you're just curious about ways to feel closer to your spouse and enjoy that marital connection more, this episode is for you. Psychologist and WinShape Marriage director, Dr. Matthew Turvey is my guest today. He's going to offer a unique perspective on maintaining a healthy marriage. I think you're going to laugh and learn from this time together. Here's our chat.
Welcome to the services, Dr. Matthew Turvey.
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Thank you so much. Glad to be here.
Laura Dugger: [00:01:22] Well, as we begin, will you just share a bit about yourself, your background, and your work at WinShape Marriage?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Yes. I'm the director of WinShape Marriage. I've been there for about five years full-time, eight years overall. Before that started though, I've been married for 22 years to my wife Nicole, got four kids. Braden is 17. He's my soccer player and doing college stuff right now. And 15-year-old Alexis who does improv comedy of all things and also play soccer. And a 12-year-old engineer named Drew. He's our mathematician. And a 6-year-old daughter named Maya we adopted from China actually several years ago. So that rounds out the family. My wife stays at home, does some homeschool with them. And we just have a happy little family life. So that's us.
Laura Dugger: [00:02:05] That is awesome. And with your work, I think that stories are always so powerful. So do you have any specific stories of redemption or reconciliation that stand out from some previous couples who have attended a WinShape Marriage event?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Yeah. So with WinShape, our little tagline, if I can say a little elevator pitch, we prepare, strengthen, or save marriages through intensives, retreats and adventures. So we've got quite a bit for kind of couples at every stage of their relationship.
And it's always fun to see couples who are preparing for marriage, you know, premarital couples, it's fun to see them... and actually, even here, just this past week or so I ran into a couple that was at one of our programs called Prepare To Last. And they said, "You know what, that just set us up, right? We are in three years now and we've been through some challenges, we've had some issues at work, some issues with extended family," and they said, "but you know what, we had kind of our head screwed on straight after Prepare To Last." Because they knew what they wanted out of marriage, what marriage was about, what was most important to them. So it just got them on the right path. So I thought that was a really cool story to hear from this young couple.
[00:03:12] I think about stories of redemption sometimes for couples who go through retreats, because you know, retreats are for couples who are looking for maybe that next step, needs some encouragement, maybe they're doing okay, they're not in crisis, but they just want to invest in their marriage. So for couples like that, it's just neat to hear how a weekend experience, when couples take the time to invest in their relationship and be serious about it and say, Hey, we're gonna get away, we're gonna get away from the kids, from technology, from work, all that stuff, we're going to do something for us and for our marriage that draws closer to each other and closer to the Lord. This is a powerful experience for couples.
So I don't know if there's any deeply moving and tear-jerking stories about couples who go to retreats, but I can guarantee the couples that go to those are finding the Lord and finding each other in a more powerful way. So there's peeling back the layers of onion in the relationship and growing in connection and intimacy.
For our intensives, those are the tear-jerking stories. Those are for couples typically who are facing challenges, maybe on the brink of divorce, and they come to WinShape and they go through this four-day experience with five other couples, a couple of Christian therapists. And they're there because they don't know what else to do. It's because they've tried a lot perhaps and they're just not sure that marriage is going to make it. So couples who go through that. I've heard multiple times of couples that say, you know what, God showed up in an incredible way.
So the chance to really kind of bear it all in some ways emotionally for their spouse, maybe it's an experience they've never done before, and so those couples we treat them very tenderly and we take the trust they place in us at WinShape very seriously because it's a difficult thing to do, to talk about some of your heartache, your pains, those things that necessarily haven't gone the way you dream they would in your marriage. But couples who go through that and do that work, about 83%, 84% of those couples are still together two years later doing a lot better. So to me, that's a pretty powerful testimony.
Laura Dugger: [00:05:05] Wow. Yes, that number is incredible. And I love that it sounds like WinShape addresses things both proactively, and you're there reactively if somebody needs a tune-up.
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Exactly.
Laura Dugger: [00:05:17] And you've kind of touched on this, but could you explain the difference between a WinShape Marriage retreat and intensive and an adventure that you offer?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Yeah. So the intensives, those are for couples who are facing challenges basically, or they're looking for a breakthrough in their marriage. So intensives aren't just for couples in crisis. They're for couples who are saying, You know, it feels like we're spinning our wheels here, we need to do something different.
So those experiences are four days, five couples, two Christian therapists, usually a male and a female. Doesn't always work out that way. But that's a WinShape Retreat in Rome, Georgia, about two hours north of Atlanta. And those are run by three partner ministries that we have. We have Focus on the Family, we have the Center for Relational Care, and The Hideaway Experience. They run the programmatic element of everything, and we provide the space for those experiences to happen. We provide hospitality. It is an incredibly transformative experience for couples that go through that.
The retreats, again, happen at WinShape retreat. And those are weekend events, usually on Friday afternoon through Sunday. And that's more for like the general public who just say, Hey, we want to do something for marriage. It's time to invest, time to get away.
Our retreats are for couples who really want to make the time and space for something new in their relationship. So they're there at WinShape Retreat and a few other places around the country we do our retreats occasionally. But they're just saying, Let's kind of get a refresher course here.
[00:06:40] So we provide them with grace-based hospitality, we provide them with this beautiful setting where they can just come together, draw closer to each other, and draw closer to the Lord. And through the program and through the chance to get them together, as opposed to hearing from us. We don't have to be the experts in everything. We would like couples to have an amazing experience. It's very powerful for couples that go through that.
Lastly, the adventures that we do—I have mentioned those—the adventures that we do are chances for small groups of couples who are led by what we call a host couples, somebody who's been to one of our trainings, who's been vetted by us, we know they're in growing marriage, not a perfect marriage, but a growing marriage.
And they just create these bucket list adventures and experiences for couples who are going around the world at different places, like maybe sailing in the British Virgin Islands, or hiking The Inca Trail to Machu Picchu, or trekking on the Camino de Santiago in northern Spain and a few other places where we go. But couples are getting the chance to get outside of their norm and to do something exciting, do something adventurous and do it together and achieve a goal that they couldn't necessarily achieve on their own, all while having amazing conversations and chances to introspect and look at their marriage.
Laura Dugger: [00:07:51] And I know you and I have spoken previously specifically about these adventures. And you say that generally an outcome is a stronger connection, and stronger memories. But also, there's some fascinating stuff that you mentioned, even with our brain, what happens on these adventures.
Dr. Matthew Turvey: So when couples get out of their normal, and we put them in a novel situation where they're faced with a challenge, which is what happens in our adventures, they start to create new memories. The more novel experience is, the more challenging the experience is, the more you have the chance for kind of a renewed sense of change or transformation perhaps in your brain, in your heart, in your spirit, in your behavior, and thus in your marriage.
So we create these experiences and these adventures for couples that... they're kind of like a metaphor for their marriage. So they have an element of journey and an element of challenge. And when couples go through these experiences, they're there and they walk through these experiences. And I think, in the end, when they conquer that Inca Trail together, like say, that's like 26-mile hike over four days at about 14,000 feet, so you feel like a chubby smoker when you're done with that. It is a mess. It is a hard hike.
But when couples go through them and they do it together, they've achieved what we call a superordinate goal. It's something that you can only do together with your spouse. So that's just a sense of accomplishment. If you can do that together, surely, you can figure out how to load the dishwasher better when you get back home, you can figure out how to put the kids to bed a little bit better. So it gives couples a sense of maybe a renewed vision for the relationship.
[00:09:26] Some of the science behind that stuff is really cool, because we know that when couples are in these experiences, it's what we call a sense of flow. There's a Czech psychologist who talks about this concept of flow. And in flow, this is where you just focus. You probably had an experience. If you're an artist or maybe you are a cyclist or a hiker, like when I'm hiking the Inca Trail, that's just one foot in front of the other, I'm not thinking about anything but the activity that I'm in.
So when you do that and you can share that experience with your spouse, you have different neurotransmitters that are firing off. So things like dopamine, norepinephrine, all these chemicals that are going off in your brain that are creating this positive experience. And when you have a positive experience like that, norepinephrine actually acts as a positive memory fixative is what we call it. So it's kind of saying that like, Okay, you know what, that was awesome. We should do that again. That's what it feels like.
Sometimes we have these amazing experiences, these bucket-list experiences on the adventures. Oxytocin is kicking off in your brain. Oxytocin, a lot of people know now as the cuddle hormone or the cuddle drug is what's released after sex and during breastfeeding. So if that's released for you and your spouse after this experience, it's like, Okay, we should cuddle. It's almost like this celebration. That's a bonding experience for couples when those neurotransmitters are released in their brain during the shared adventures.
Laura Dugger: [00:10:52] That's so fascinating because it's something that we probably wouldn't be aware of. But there's so much power even going on in our brains connecting us. And with all of these WinShape retreats, and intensives, and adventures, they all include what you call five agents of transformation. So will you share what those five agents are and why they're important?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Yeah. So those five agents of transformation are really kind of core to our DNA at WinShape Marriage. So any experience that we have, we think should have five key elements. One is the sequestered settings. So getting away from technology, it's getting away from, as much as I love them, it's getting away from my kids, it's getting away from work, it's getting away from responsibilities, and typically getting out in nature where we just have the chance to slow down.
There's actually some science behind this idea of a three-day reset that happens in our brain and in our bodies. When we're out in nature for three days away from the square lines of cement, and parking lots and all this stuff, when you're out in nature, it's just like, "Okay, I was kind of created for this." So we can slow down. When we slow down we're able to listen to our spouse better, we're able to listen to the Lord better. So a sequestered setting is the first one.
[00:12:03] We provide grace-based hospitality for couples. And WinShape has close ties with Chick-fil-A. You probably know. So hospitality has always been at Chick-fil-A. So all of our WinShape Marriage experiences, we're gonna make sure that we have grace-based hospitality. And it's really trying to figure out how to serve the couples that we're with in ways that they may not even expect. So we like to surprise and delight them, we like to be there for them. We like to give them experiences that are going to be powerful for them. And that can be through serving food. That can be through taking care of needs where they have needs. It can be all sorts of things.
The third element that we really want to make sure is involved with every WinShape Marriage experience is Bible-based teaching. So this is just where, well, probably most folks think of when they think of a retreat, perhaps is just Bible-based teaching. And well, that's important. It's not the only thing that we believe is transformative for couples when they go through one of our experiences.
If information alone transform, then go read Wikipedia, go just, you know, read a book. And that's powerful and that's important, but sometimes that information and that teaching isn't really sticky. It doesn't stick with us unless we combine it with these other four elements.
[00:13:12] So the fourth element that is really important to us is elements of worship. We want to make sure that every experience has an element of worship. And here's what's cool about that. Worship is not just singing praise songs. It's not just guitars around the campfires. It's not just singing hymns, or whatever, you know, people are used to.
I really want to encourage people to find their spiritual personality. Years ago, my wife and I read a book by Gary Thomas called Sacred Pathways. And he lists eight or nine different ways that people relate to God and connect to God. What was powerful for us was that I learned that this whole whole idea of having a shared Bible study or praying together in the morning, like that's just wasn't our shtick. I mean, it just didn't work for us.
So we tried it many times, come to find out that I connect to God through learning. When I learn something new, I feel like, all right, Lord, you're in it. And I love that. My wife connects to God through service. So we were trying to commit this deal where both of us would learn my way for learning, you know. But she learned through service and connected to God through service. So we just tried to make sure that we provide experiences for couples that are going to hit on all those different areas instead of just one.
[00:14:18] And the last one, last element or agent of transformation is experiential learning. So we want to make sure that you're not just learning with your eyes. You know, you're learning with your hands sometimes. you learn with your feet. You're out there doing something. And so we really craft experiences for couples that are metaphors for powerful principles and powerful lessons in their relationship in their marriage.
Laura Dugger: We'll come back shortly after a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: [00:16:24] We're going to talk about three different types of relationships today and I would just love for you to speak to each of these types of couples. So first, the ones who want to prepare well for their marriage, and second, the ones who desire to enrich their marriage, and third, those who are just barely hanging on and they need to save their marriage. So what message do you have first for the ones who just want to prepare well for marriage?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: So do that early. I mean, don't wait until you're engaged, quite frankly. A lot of couples will come to our prepared last program or go to a premarital counselor with their pastor, their priest, or something of that community. Don't do that once you're engaged. I mean, make sure you do it before you're married. But if you could do that before you're engaged, man, you're way better off.
Because once the engagement happens, you're thinking, or she's thinking, maybe not both of you are thinking about, one of you is thinking about, oh, just a wedding. You know what? That's a big ol event and that's a great celebration. But if you got that on your mind, it's hard to think about your relationship, especially as you get closer and closer to the date. So do it early.
There are a lot of great assessments out there that you can take to check out all the different aspects of your relationship, people who can go through that with you. But take it seriously. I mean, be ready for your marriage and not just for your wedding.
Laura Dugger: [00:17:40] We're all about practicality here. So do you have any practical tips or tricks that you recommend for couples who are wanting to enrich their marriage, if they're hoping especially to take it from good to great?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Yeah, absolutely. Do a retreat. Getaway. I mean, we highly recommend... whether it's one of our retreats or somebody else's. I mean, it's just important sometimes to be able to remove some of the stresses, remove some of the barriers, remove some of the dross, the stuff that kind of impedes us sometimes. And you can't always do that when you're in the thick of it at home. So I think removing yourself from that situation is often very important.
I encourage also couples to not be afraid of doing deep work. A lot of couples come to retreat. There's usually the dragger and the draggee. It's usually the woman who's the dragger and the guy who's the draggee. In my relationship, I'm the dragger, my wife's the draggee. But just don't be afraid of going a little bit deeper with your spouse. Because I really think that in the chance to be emotionally vulnerable with your spouse, that's where we find connection, that's where we find intimacy. So don't be afraid of that.
I think we all were created for connection, and so we want that. And so if you trust the process of a retreat, then I can pretty much guarantee you're going to find something deeper in your relationship that maybe you didn't know was there. So I also encourage couples to take a posture of discovery. Take a posture discovering your relationship. You don't think that you got it all together.
I've worked with too many couples who have been married for, you know, whether it's seven years or whether it's 50 years, and they're saying, "No, I kind of got it figured out. I got him figured out." And they just let life go along. And they're not very intentional about it. They don't think that there's anything better or new for them. But if you take this posture of discovery, it kind of necessitates being humble. Like I don't have it all figured out. "So, sweetie..." My wife name's Nicole. "So Nicole, I want to learn something more about you. I want to go a little bit deeper in my relationship. What can we share? What's new? Can we do that?" So those are just some tips I would have for couples looking to enrich their marriage.
Laura Dugger: [00:19:45] Those are awesome. And I think if it does feel a little bit scary to open up and go deeper with your spouse, I think it's comforting to know that typically the other person listening to that. it will unlock compassion in them toward you. And so hopefully that's encouraging for someone today. And as we move on to this third type of couple, what would you want to communicate to those who are about to pursue a divorce?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Man, I know there are times where divorce is going to happen. So first off I want to make sure that those couples know there's a ton of grace from us, from the Lord, from those around them. Like, nobody really goes into marriage thinking, "We're gonna get a divorce." Right? So it's not plan A, it's not ever plan A. But there are times where when that is happening, we want to make sure that we are loving, and we're non-judgmental, and we're there beside those couples to support them.
I would also say that we want to say I think a lot of times there's hope. I just think that if couples can change some certain aspects or learn a few new things, like you just talked about compassion, if they can start to see their spouse with a lens of compassion instead of judgment, there's a lot of things that couples can do to actually save their marriage.
So WinShape, we want to come alongside those couples, and we want to help them. One thing we say a lot is that we want to help you as the guide on the side, not the sage on the stage. And so in that we do have some experts in marriage. But at the same time, like we're all people too, you know? So we want to walk alongside couples who are not feeling like they have hope, and we want to maybe be that out for them for a while.
We're going to hold that for them, we're going to hold that tension, that sadness, that grief, that anxiety they may have and we're going to do everything we can while they're with us to help them find a better way, to find some grace, to find some redemption for their story. And I've seen it work over and over and over again. The toughest situation where couples haven't been together for years, haven't lived in the same house, slept in the same bed, touched, talked for months, if not years, they can come to an intensive, and God shows up. God still in the business of doing miracles.
So I guess I would ask couples if they thought... you know if they could just give it another chance. When couples come into intensive, I never promise a result. We can't do that, you know? But what I can promise is that if a couple were to invest in the four to five days of intensive and trust the process, trust their counselors, dive into it deep, I can pretty much guarantee they're going to be in a different place, in a better place at the end of that experience.
Whether or not that means a marriage that is going to work, I can't promise that, you know. I wish I could. But I can guarantee that they're going to find some grace and they're going to find a new way of thinking that's probably going to help them in the future.
Laura Dugger: [00:22:39] Definitely. I love the grace in that response.
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[00:23:29] From your education, Dr. Turvey, and with your time just spent working with so many couples, are there any reoccurring patterns that you see in those marriages that seem to be the happiest and healthiest?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Yeah. I think couples that are doing really well they're intentional about their relationship. They don't sweat the small stuff. You know, I love my wife and we have an amazing marriage. And I'm thankful because truthfully, we've had some downtime. But for the most part, it's been pretty good.
And I think I look back on that and I think, Okay, in 22 years, what have we done right? We haven't sweat the small stuff. We went into this deal not really knowing what we're doing, quite frankly, but we both have come to the point where we have this shared vision for what we think our marriage can be. So I think couples that are doing well tend to have a shared vision.
Now couples are doing amazing have probably written down the shared vision and you know, put calligraphy on a pretty Pinterest poster on the wall, stuff like that. We're not there yet. But like I think we have this sense that we know what we're aiming for. We know what we want to do together, what we want our marriage and our family life to be about, what we want our legacy to be about. So I really think healthy and happy couples are able to do that.
I think that couples who are doing well appreciate the differences with their spouse. I know from personal experience when I was first married, I kind of married my wife because of the way she made me feel. So I loved her because of something she did for me. Then after a while, two years, three years, four years, whatever it was, she kind of got on my nerves.
Then I had to work through that and say, Okay, those things that I loved and those things I don't really like. So for a while then I kind of had to love in spite of the way my wife made me feel. But then eventually it kind of went back circle. And I realized those things that I loved in spite of are now those things I love because of. And so for me, it's been a beautiful expression of how I can love somebody who's totally different than me, shouldn't be like me, I shouldn't be like her. But in our uniqueness, we're able to kind of live fully as who we've been created to be.
Laura Dugger: [00:25:33] And I think we've covered so much and so many different types of couples. But let's just boil down all of this information. Do you have one baby step that a listener could take today, just to start moving in the right direction of pursuing a happier and healthier relationship?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Absolutely. Assume the best. Assume the best of your spouse. Assume the best and then seek the best for your spouse. I'm just a firm believer that so many times we come to marriage, and after a while, junk builds up between us and then we start assuming the worst. Like, you know, oh, she didn't love the dishwasher, right? She must have it in for me. Or she didn't do this thing for the kids around the house so she must think, you know, I'm a jerk or she must be mad at me or whatever.
But instead, what if I just said, You know what? I didn't see something happen that I wanted. The problem is my expectation, not my spouse. So I'm going to assume the best about my wife and say, You know what, she's probably had a tough day.
There's some big fancy, psychological terms about that called the fundamental attribution error, which is a long other story, which is, you know, I gotta sound smart. Sometimes I'm gonna say that little phrase today. But if people look it up, they'll learn about that. We tend to attribute the good things in our spouse to context around them as opposed to their internal reasons. We have to assume that the good things about our spouse are because of who they are, and not just because of the external circumstances around them. So assume the best, seek the best.
Laura Dugger: [00:26:57] I love that. And I think it tends to be such a self-fulfilling prophecy, because when you are seeking the best or assuming the best with your spouse, that's actually the person that they're becoming and they start doing those things as well. This has been awesome if anybody wants to find out more about you or about WinShape, where would you direct them?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Best place to find out more is winshapemarriage.org. WinShape is W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E from shaping winners as what came down from Truett Cathy about 35 years ago. You'll find all about our intensives, our retreats, our adventures, being a host couple that lead those adventures, and just all the things that we offer.
Laura Dugger: [00:27:41] Our listeners know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so I have my final question for you today. Dr. Matt, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Matthew Turvey: My savvy sauce comes from a lesson I learned from my daughter. I said at the beginning of the podcast that she's in improv comedy. And she came home one day, and she said, "One of the rules of improv comedy is that you never want to say no." She goes, "Always say yes and see what happens." So in my life lately I've been trying to live by that mantra—the say yes and see what happens. As long as it's not unsafe, illegal, unethical, stuff like that. I find too many times that in life, I shut off opportunities because I've said no. So I'm going to say yes and see what happens.
Laura Dugger: [00:28:24] Love it. I hope your daughter's excited that she taught you something.
Dr. Matthew Turvey: She's famous now.
Laura Dugger: Well, Dr. Turvey, thank you so much for just taking the time to share more about these incredible options that are available through WinShape and just for offering every listener hope. It was such a pleasure to host you today.
Dr. Matthew Turvey: Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: [00:28:44] One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
[00:30:07] So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jul 29, 2019
Monday Jul 29, 2019
*DISCLIAMER: This message briefly covers topics that are not suitable for little ears.
64. Stress Management, Self-Care, and Offering Grace to Important People in Our Life with Author and Speaker, Jill Savage
**Transcription Below**
1 Timothy 6:6 (NIV) “But godliness with contentment is great gain.”
Jill Savage is an author and speaker who is passionate about encouraging families. She is the author or co-author of twelve books. Featured on Focus on the Family, Crosswalk.com, Family Life Today and Today’s Christian Woman magazine, Jill is the founder of Hearts at Home, an organization that encouraged moms from 1994-2017. Jill and her husband, Mark, have five children, three who are married, two granddaughters and one grandson. They make their home in Normal, Illinois.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Jill Savage:
Living With Less So Your Family Has More
Better Together by Jill Savage and Anne McClane
No More Perfect Marriages by Mark and Jill Savage
No More Perfect Kids by Jill Savage and Dr. Kathy Koch
Opening up no more perfect date night membership for 5 days (closes Aug 2nd, 2019) *Savvy Sauce Listeners can use code “seminar” at checkout for $5 off monthly subscription*
Need a Next Step? Try Mark & Jill Savage’s FREE 4 week e-challenge here!
Pre-order Jill Savage's newest book coming in August!
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone, I just want to take 60 seconds and give you our family update. If you don't follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you may not know that Mark and I had our fourth daughter, Kessler Story.
About two months ago, we did sneak the baby announcement into Episode 31 when Mark was my co-host for an interview we did with Clay Scroggins way back in December. Since her birth, so many of you have sent encouraging messages, you've brought us meals, prayed for our family transition, and even sent gifts. So we just want to say a huge thank you to each of you. We are so humbled at the impact of community, and we love you all so much.
Also, if you want to follow us on social media, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at The Savvy Sauce. We would love to continue the conversation with you there after each episode.
[00:00:57] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:01:13] <music>
Laura Dugger: I just want to let you know that there is a portion of this message that contains topics that are not suitable for little ears. Please use discretion when you listen.
If you've listened to The Savvy Sauce for long, you know how much I enjoy FabFitFun, which is a seasonal subscription box. I will share more details later in this episode, specifically how you can receive over $200 worth of products for less than $40 just by using the code SAVVY at checkout when you visit fabfitfun.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Author and speaker Jill Savage joins us today to articulate how we can enjoy the richness of relationships with our friends, our children, and our spouse. She will also share more about her own personal story, including the things that she's so thankful she did as a young wife and mom that have paid great dividends now as an empty nester who is happily married.
You don't want to miss all these practical and fun life applications. Here's our chat. [00:02:21]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jill.
Jill Savage: Well, thank you. It's good to be with you.
Laura Dugger: Well, I know that we're going to cover so many topics today, but will you start us off by telling us a bit more about your family and your ministry?
Jill Savage: Absolutely. I am a mother of five, and I am Nana to three. We live in Normal, Illinois, and we have a lot of fun with that name. Our kids went to Normal schools, we go to a Normal church.
Honestly, my life work is about helping people know what is normal in motherhood, in marriage, life and for us to learn to accept what is normal and learn how to embrace the imperfect in our life. So I have a real heartbeat, particularly for moms and marriages.
My kids are all grown. The youngest is 23 and the oldest is 34. So they are all young adults. My husband and I are empty nesters. In fact, I have a new book coming out called Empty Nest, Full Life. So I'm really excited about that as well. [00:03:29]
Bottom line, I minister to moms and marriages. I led the ministry Hearts at Home for 24 years, which was an organization that encouraged moms.
Then for the last couple of years, my husband and I have launched what we call JAM Savage Ministries, which stands for Jill and Mark Savage Ministries. We do marriage coaching, marriage retreats, I speak at women's events, and do a lot of ministry online through the blog, and just absolutely love bringing hope and help to moms and marriages.
Laura Dugger: Well, your bio is remarkable. You've spoken to so many audiences and I know that one of your popular topics is living with less so your family has more. Will you elaborate on that vision?
Jill Savage: Yeah. Living With Less was one of my favorite books. It's no longer in print, but there's lots of used copies out there. And it's in the library system as well. [00:04:33]
But the concept of living with less so your family has more is that we can live with less stress, less activities, and less money than what is culturally acceptable. And bottom line, living with less so your family has more is about standing up to adult peer pressure.
Whether we realize it or not, whether we label it that or not, the truth is we all deal with peer pressure in some way, shape, or form. And so that's really what living with less so your family has more is about, is learning to do the right thing for your family regardless of whether it's the popular thing that others are doing.
Laura Dugger: Where do you see our culture having abundant excess currently and what is actually limiting that we might be unaware of?
Jill Savage: Well, I think that as moms, as parents, we want to give our kids the best. So we want to give them every opportunity. [00:05:33] We want to make sure that they are able to try all the sports and that they have music lessons and all of that, which is important and it's valuable. And our kids do need to find out where their talents lie and have the opportunity to try things.
But I think that sometimes what we miss is that sometimes they need time with us, not just time when we are going back and forth to activities. They need white space in their life. In the same way that we can read a book because of the white space around the edges on the margin and behind the words, we need white space in our life.
And oftentimes we are just filling, filling, filling our kids' schedules and our own schedules, and that may not actually be what they need. So we can live with less activities so we can enjoy more quality time. We can live with less money so that we can enjoy maybe a simpler home environment where maybe one parent is at home and one is working. [00:06:44]
So sometimes we are only thinking about the things that bring more by doing more. And what we have to realize is when we actually slow down our pace down, we can actually experience more. And sometimes that “more” is a more in our soul. That's really what we need to experience as well as our kids.
Laura Dugger: I just think it's fascinating to hear you talk about this because we're hearing so much about the minimalist movement. Do you have any personal stories of how your family executed this idea?
Jill Savage: Well, you know one thing, for instance, when our kids were growing up, we didn't have cable television. I mean a lot of people did but we didn't. It came down to money. We were a one-income family. My husband was working full-time, I was a stay-at-home mom.
There were things we wanted to do. Each of our kids could only do one activity. You know, did they want to do more than that? Sure they did. But when we looked at it and we said, all right, there is the possibility of you being able to do all these activities, there's the possibility of us having cable television, you name it, whatever else we wanted. [00:08:00] But in order to do that, I have to go to work. I have to work outside the home.
So when we look at what that will cost us, is that in line with our values? And it wasn't. We had to look at it and go, no, it's not a trade-off we want to make.
Every family has to decide what's right for them. We could make it in this world on one income. One time... I will never forget this. It was an article in our local newspaper, and they asked this question. They said, is it really about the high cost of living, or is it about the high cost of the way we choose to live?
I can remember reading that and that just really stuck with me. Because I was like, wow, I need that reminder. And I realized, no, we are choosing to live without cable television. We are choosing to live without extra activities that our kids do. [00:09:03] We are choosing to buy clothes at a second-hand store rather than new clothes. But we are choosing to do that because we value that one of us is home at least during this particular season of our life.
Laura Dugger: And you've published so many books in addition to sending out a newsletter periodically. But in one of those newsletters, I remember you wrote that the typical mom has about 17 minutes a day to herself. And I think you're very accurate. So it leads me into another question. Why are you so passionate to help women understand that taking care of themselves is actually taking care of their family?
Jill Savage: I'll tell you what, anything that I'm passionate about is because of my own journey in that area. You know, in the beginning when my husband and I got married, for us the stick turned blue at 11 months. So we obviously had a baby nine months later, so we hadn't even been married two years before we began our family. [00:10:12]
Of course, what every mom does, you throw yourself into this. I found myself feeling very overwhelmed with life. I was also going to school full-time at the time. I had this new little baby, really was somewhat newly married, and I really didn't take care of myself. I found that I was, for a lack of a better word or a better description, I was broken down on the side of the road and somebody had to rescue me.
I knew that this was not healthy. I had to figure out something different. So I began to really explore first, what is my fuel? What fills me up? Honestly, that is as different as every mom out there has a different kind of fuel. What fuels one mom, it may not fuel her best friend. So we have to know ourselves and identify what our fuel is. [00:11:13]
As I began to identify that, then I began to realize that I needed to pull up the filling station on a regular basis. And that when I did that, yes, it might take time away from my kids, I might need time alone, but when I did that, I was actually able to be a better mom, to be a better wife. So I was then serving my family out of the fullness of my tank instead of trying to serve them on an empty tank.
So that's why I'm so passionate about encouraging moms to identify their fuel and then to be intentional about pulling up to that filling station. And to recognize that when you do that, it's not selfish. Self-care is not selfish. It is really a part of your job description of taking care of your family and taking care of your marriage. You first have to take care of yourself so you have something to give to them. [00:12:15]
Laura Dugger: How do we know then if we're not getting enough self-care or if we're getting too much? Or do you even think that's possible to get too much?
Jill Savage: I suppose it's possible. I haven't met very many moms who have too much self-care. And I've been in mom ministry for almost 30 years now. I think I would have met a few along the way.
But I think that the first place that we have to look is, how are we handling the everyday stuff of life? When milk gets spilled, are we losing it? Or I like to say, are we reacting or are we responding? Are we reacting in anger and maybe shame and raised voice or are we responding in grace, in kindness, in sensitivity, and compassion?
When we pay attention to our reactions, it's a clue. Because the reason we react is most often because our own tank is empty and we just literally have no gas in the gas tank to handle what just happened. [00:13:25] And as you and I both know, anything that we deal with with kids, it is just a constant need to respond.
I think the first place that we need to recognize and maybe we have a red flag that goes up if our responses are more reactions and we're not happy with who we are in those unexpected moments of motherhood, which there are dozens a day, then that's a clue that we need to be a little bit more intentional about self-care.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any ideas for true self-care?
Jill Savage: So I think the first thing with self-care is spiritually we have to make sure we're filling our tank. That we are being intentional about connecting to the God who created us and who designed us to do motherhood with Him. I think that is something we all need.
The second part of self-care is we need to know what is our own personal temperament. I would start with extrovert, introvert. Because an extrovert is refueled by being with people. An introvert is refueled by being alone. [00:14:37] So you need to know which one are you and therefore what fuel do you need?
So I didn't understand the introvert extrovert thing for many years. In fact, I thought I was an extrovert. I have pretty good people skills. I'm fine being with people, but I crave being alone. And here I was a mom of five children, five kids, you're hardly ever alone.
I remember when the number four came along... we adopted number five. So this was when number four was infant. I remember my husband coming home from work one day... as you can imagine, you know, if you hit number four... you hit number three, and you're outnumbered.
So here's number four, and we're double outnumbered. And I remember saying to my husband, and I was desperate, I said, "I want to cut a deal with you." And he was like, "A deal? What are you talking about?" And I'm like, when you get home from work, I need 30 minutes, 30 minutes in the bedroom by myself." And he was like, "Okay." I said, "I don't know what it is. I just feel like I need a break." [00:15:45]
So we began to call that daddy wrestle time. The kids knew when dad came home, he changed into comfortable clothes and then the kids had time with him and I would go in the bedroom, close the door. And I took my Bible with me and I took the newspaper with me. Because I just felt like I didn't even know what day of the week it was. I didn't know what was going on in the world. I was just so knee-deep in taking care of my family.
And that little 30 minutes would just fill up my tank enough to get through the evening to get the kids in bed. And then I'd have a couple of hours after the kids were in bed before I went to bed, which would fill up my tank for the next day.
So I think that it's really important for us to understand what does fill my tank from an introvert, extrovert perspective. And then beyond that, the question is, what activities do I do that bring me life? [00:16:45] You know, what is it that when I do it I lose track of time because I just love it?
That may take a little longer for someone to figure out. But I think all three of those, spending time with God, identifying if you're introvert or extrovert, and if you need people or you need quiet, and then what are the activities that bring you life?
And then what we have to do is we have to intentionally put those things into our life. We have to schedule appointments on our calendar with ourselves, for ourselves, so that we protect those filling up times so that we can then be good for our family outside of those times.
The key is to identify what your fuel is and then make sure that you put it into your life proactively rather than reactively. Because when we try to do it reactively, man, we're on an empty tank and it takes a lot more to fill. [00:17:44]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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So, again, that's fabfitfun.com, and enter the code SAVVY at checkout to get $10 off your first box. This brings the total down to $39.99. I hope you enjoy your subscription as much as I have. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:19:19]
Laura Dugger: Many of our listeners are female, and they can probably relate to being over-committed or stressed out. So what are some strategies that you've found to be most helpful as it relates to stress management?
Jill Savage: The first one that comes to my mind is learning to say no. And I think as women, we really struggle with this. I think we want to say yes. We desire to please. But I think that there are some very practical ways that we can learn to say no that may be helpful.
So let me share a few of those. The first one is never say yes on the spot. Never say yes on the spot. Because what we need to do is we need to step back and kind of take a deep breath, look at the big picture, and identify, can I realistically do what I've been asked to do? Is this a good time for me? Do I have the margin in my life? [00:20:18]
I'll give you a personal example of a time where I had this rule in place and I broke it and I paid for breaking it. I had somebody approach me at church one Sunday. And this was just a couple of weeks before the Hearts at Home conference. This Heart at Home conference, for those that don't know about it, was a big conference. Usually 4,000 to 6,000 moms attend these conferences.
I had a message to prepare. I had all kinds of things. You know, I had to get ready for the conference. And this person said, "Hey Jill, you know, Dave and Amanda are... Amanda's on bed rest with the twins and we're doing meals and I'm wondering if you could provide a meal for them this Thursday." I quickly thought about it and I'm like, "Well, it's a meal and I have to prepare a meal for my family, so why don't I just double it? It's really not a big deal." And I said yes on the spot. [00:21:18]
So that was Sunday. Get through the week and it's Thursday. And I have had a lot on my plate. I'm doing all kinds of things to get ready for this conference, but I managed to make a really nice meal for my family. We had... I can even remember it. We had meatloaf and baked potatoes and green beans. And I made these yummy rolls. It was way better than the frozen pizza we had the night before.
So we sat down to dinner and my husband was like, "Oh, Jill, this meal is so good." He's like, "Is this what you took to Dave and Amanda tonight?" And all of a sudden, I was mortified. "Oh my gosh! Is today Thursday? I completely forgot it. I completely forgot."
I looked at the clock. It was 6:30. I was supposed to have a meal to them at 5:00. I immediately ran, grabbed my phone, called, Amanda picked up the phone just laughing and she was like, "It's okay Jill." And I'm like, "Oh, I should have never said yes because it's two weeks before the conference. I am so sorry." I mean, I'm apologizing up one side down the other. [00:22:25]
And bless her heart. She was like we have leftovers. We have more than enough food. We're fine. I could just kick myself. Had I not said yes on the spot and stepped back and really thought about it, the better answer would have been, Thank you for asking me. This is not a good time for me to add anything else to my plate. If you would ask me again in three weeks, which I knew that they still would need meals at that time, I would be happy to.
That would have been a much better response and a much better way for me to have said no, and it would have ended better for her, and it would have ended better for me.
Laura Dugger: What encouragement do you want to offer the listeners as it relates to friendship in all seasons of life?
Jill Savage: Friendship has been a learning curve for me because I grew up having guy friends, not very many girlfriends. And I was fine with that. I found female friendships to be, oh, a little dramatic, a little complicated. [00:23:32]
So I found myself very content with a few guy friendships that I had growing up. Got married. Of course, I left many of those friendships behind. We had some couple friends. But when I became a mom I began to realize that I really did need other women in my life. I needed other women who understood my life, who understood the very things that I struggled with, who maybe were a step ahead of me in one area or another that I could learn from. So I really had to be intentional about beginning to forge those female friendships.
Eventually, I wrote a book on that topic along with my daughter and came out just a couple of years ago called Better Together: Because You're Not Meant to Mom Alone. None of us are meant to mom alone. But let's be honest, many of us still feel like when we are dealing with friendships, we're dealing with the same feelings we had in junior high. [00:24:35]
We sometimes feel outside the circle. We have trouble connecting. We fear rejection. We struggle reaching out. Sometimes that's because of the fear of rejection. Sometimes we just simply don't know how. We've heard in the past.
So I think every mom struggles through that. But what we have to learn is that we really aren't designed to do this alone and that we need to be intentional about forging those relationships.
Now, introvert/extrovert plays into this as well. And I never knew this until several years ago. But extroverts will have a wide circle of friends. Introverts will have just two or three close friends and a very narrow circle. And that's perfectly normal for both. So you need to know which you are and you need to embrace kind of the friendship temperament that you will have as well. [00:25:35]
Laura Dugger: You especially illustrated that friendship adds such a sweetness and a richness to life. So do you have any actionable steps we can take today to become a better friend or bravely reach out to connect with others?
Jill Savage: Well, I would say just do it. Whatever it is. Maybe you know someone that is going through a difficult time. You know, maybe it's a neighbor. Maybe it's somebody in your mom's group. Maybe it's somebody at work. What is one thing that would just lighten their load? Just do it.
Maybe you need to build your friendship circle. Maybe your friends have moved away. Maybe you've always struggled in this area and it's time for you to pick up the phone and literally say, Hey would you like to meet for coffee? Just do it. Just do it. Are you going to have to find courage to do this? Are you going to have to push through fear, push through rejection? Yes, you might have to. [00:26:41]
But, you know, in the past eight years, I have walked through a breast cancer. I have walked through my husband's infidelity and leaving, eventually coming home and us restoring our marriage, but that was a really dark season. I have walked through a son with severe mental health issues and several suicide attempts.
And in all three of those life-shattering situations, it was the women who just simply did it that made all the difference in the world. They didn't ask me what I needed. They didn't say, Hey, if you need something, just let me know.
They literally showed up on the doorstep with a casserole or sent a gift card to go get pizza or called from the grocery store and said, Hey, I'm at the grocery. Is there anything that you need? They just did it. They didn't ask. They just did. [00:27:45] And I think we can all take that actionable next step in many different situations.
Laura Dugger: Oh Jill, thank you for sharing your trials with such authenticity. You've been through so much, and yet you model freely offering grace. So I'm curious, from your experience, has it been harder to forgive the big and obvious transgressions in your family or the smaller daily frustrations in marriage and family life?
Jill Savage: I think the everyday stuff is hard. Certainly, infidelity is huge. I don't minimize that in any way shape or form. We had nearly two years of healing from that. But it's that every day live next to each other, bump into each other's imperfect that really causes challenges for most of us.
I would say that's the place where God has really grown me and there's been a softening in my life of handling those everyday things better and with more grace. In the past, I was characterized by judgment. I was characterized by criticism. [00:29:04] I was characterized by maybe a tone of voice that said a million words that I would never say, but my tone said.
And most of that kind of stuff comes out in just the everyday stuff of life. Not the big things, but the little things that grate against each other all the time. And so I think that while it was really difficult in the big place, and it certainly took a lot of hard work, I think where most of us struggle is just the daily imperfect stuff of life that we deal with all the time. And I think the more we can learn to respond in a kind, grace-filled, compassionate way, the better our relationships will be.
Laura Dugger: Hi friends! You've heard us request that you take a moment to rate and review us on iTunes, and I just want to give you a quick explanation of why that is so important. If you have enjoyed the content this far on The Savvy Sauce, this is just a simple way you can express your gratitude. Because when you give us a 5-star rating and written review, it helps us gain more listeners, which in turn leads to better guests and more sponsors who make the future of The Savvy Sauce possible. Thank you for taking a moment to help us out so that we can all grow together. [00:30:30]
All of your books have so much to say about grace, and I'd love to zero in on one topic specifically. How do you recommend that we give grace to our family, even if it's hard or we believe they don't deserve it?
Jill Savage: You know, the only way we can give grace is if we receive grace. And we receive grace from God who gives it freely. We can't earn it. It is a free gift. Grace is when we get mercy instead of punishment. I like to say with our family that we need to be giving them grace space. And that is the space to be human, the space to make mistakes and not get raked over the coals for every wrong little thing that they do.
You know, an example of this in my own life is my husband loves his coffee. He also manages to drip coffee all over my freshly mopped kitchen floor. A lot. [00:31:36] I used to kind of operate with forgiveness... And grace requires forgiveness. But I would forgive, I would think to myself, Okay, Lord, I forgive him for this coffee splotch. I'm going to clean it up. But I would address it with my husband. I would say, Hey, babe, could you be more careful when you are getting your coffee because there's just splotches all over the floor?
And I realized several years ago that I was going to change my strategy for responding to his coffee splotches and I was going to give grace instead. And what that means is, yes, I forgive him each time I clean it up, but I'm choosing that for the rest of my married life I will serve my husband and clean up his coffee splotches and say nothing. That's what grace space looks like.
It's allowing someone to be human and to determine that you're going to live next to their imperfect and you're not going to try to change every imperfect thing about them. [00:32:40]
Laura Dugger: You were just refreshingly transparent. I'm curious, as you reflect back on your years of marriage, what are the things that you're most grateful you did early on that you're seeing the fruit or the blessing of now after many years together?
Jill Savage: Well, I would definitely say taking time away from the kids I think was huge and important. We learned early on that we needed to be marriage-centered, not child-centered. In the beginning, we were child-centered, but we learned that lesson the hard way.
We ended up in the counselor's office sorting through all kinds of junk. And one of the things we realized is that our kids were coming before our marriage and honestly that wasn't doing us any good and it wasn't doing them any good.
I think that that is really, really important that we take time away. And whether that is a once-a-week date night, a once-every-other-week date night, and maybe a once-a-year getaway, maybe on your anniversary, I think that it's extremely important. [00:33:46]
It's important for you as a parent and as a couple because we need to have fun together. We need to explore the world together. We need to remember who we are outside of being parents.
But the second thing is it sets a role model for our kids. And I think that is extremely important that our kids see that mommies and daddies need to take time for each other. And not only that but in your kid's world, you are their world. And so if you're okay, then their world is okay. So it provides security for your kids as well.
Laura Dugger: Would they echo that now that they're adults? Are they glad that you and your husband took time away from them to invest in one another?
Jill Savage: Oh, absolutely. Our oldest daughter even can remember before we did when we were child-centered versus marriage-centered. And she can remember that switchover because she was probably close to 12 at the time that we made that switchover. And certainly, she has seen that. [00:34:53]
And she and her husband have carried it forth into their marriage. So they take time. Oftentimes we help with kids, they trade with other couples, they find a sitter. I mean, they use all kinds of strategies for child care so that they get some time with each other.
Laura Dugger: When you're in the middle of parenting, you may be blinded that your family is actually very child-centered. So are there any red flags or identifiers?
Jill Savage: Well, I would say one is, particularly us moms, we can easily look at our husbands and go, hey, you can dress yourself, you can feed yourself. Quite frankly, you can take care of yourself in the bathroom. Everybody else needs me, you're on your own buddy. You know, we don't want to do that.
But oftentimes a desperate mom who is just exhausted so easily goes there. And that would be a red flag if you thought about that. It's like, Hey these kids need me. You're a big boy, take care of yourself. That's a red flag. That's not healthy thinking. [00:36:02]
Another red flag would be you know I don't want to leave the kids. Being fearful of actually leaving the kids because really you're putting your kids before your marriage. In order to have time for just the two of you have to be willing to leave them.
Of course, when they're little and they're nursing or something like that, you may have shorter date nights, but they're still very important to have. I think a lot of times it comes down to the thinking that we have. Sometimes it can even be about physical intimacy in marriage. Like if it's just one more thing on the to-do list, that is a clue, a) that you probably need some refueling, self-care time. b) that you've really forgotten the importance of both emotional and physical intimacy.
That would probably be the other piece that I think would be a red flag is, if all you're talking about is diapers and dishes, that is a clue that things are getting real surface. [00:37:11] So one of the things my husband and I created several years ago is something called No More Perfect Date Night. It's actually a membership site for couples, it's a club for your marriage where we give couples something to watch together.
It's usually just anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes in length. It might be an interview with a marriage expert or it might be taking a topic and talking about it for 10 minutes and then discussion questions to go deeper. Because what often happens is we just get talking about the dailiness of life and we stop talking about our feelings and our dreams and our hopes and our fears and our struggles. So we need to keep that going even when life becomes very daily, because that is what human connection is all about.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any practical strategies that you implemented to keep your marriage a higher priority than your parenting?
Jill Savage: Well, definitely. I think date night was sacred. We did not have family around and we didn't have money to hire a sitter. [00:38:19] So the only thing we could do is find other couples to trade with. So like we would trade every Friday night. There was one couple we traded with. Our date nights would go from Friday night to Saturday at noon. So it included an overnight.
So it was making those sacred and saying nothing unless you know there's some requirement for your job or somebody's sick or something like that. Friday nights were sacred. We either were watching our friends' kids, which honestly gave us great time because our kids played well together, even if their kids were at our house, or our kids were at their house. And we were having time, just the two of us.
So I would say that was a huge piece. And then asking each other questions that went deeper than, how was your day? We might say, how can I pray for you? What was the best thing that happened today? What was the hardest thing that happened today? Those require just a little bit deeper conversation and they help us stay connected to what's happening in each of our individual worlds. [00:39:25]
When we started asking questions like that, it really began to make a difference for us in the depth of our relationship.
Laura Dugger: Will you give us an overview of some of the resources that you've published and then direct listeners where they can connect with you online?
Jill Savage: Absolutely. The best place to connect with me online is at jillsavage.org. That's where you're going to find my blog. It's where you're going to find my books. The books that we talked about today, Living With Less So Your Family Has More. We got into a little bit of the No More Perfect Moms book and the No More Perfect Marriages book that we have as well.
And if couples are looking to take date night to a new level or to take their marriage to a new place and deepen their conversations, we encourage them to become a No More Perfect Date Night member. If somebody is listening to this, we'll even offer a special just for you, your listeners. If they use the coupon code seminar, and that would be S-E-M-I-N-A-R, they can get $5 off a month for No More Perfect Date Night. So we would love to have them. They can go to nomoreperfectdatenight.com to learn more about that. [00:40:46]
If registration is closed for Date Night, have them connect with me through my website and we will make sure that they get in.
Laura Dugger: We will link to all of those websites and resources in the show notes. Our listeners know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, Jill, I have one final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?
Jill Savage: I was thinking about it as it relates to friendship. We were talking about friendship and it is a phrase that I say to myself all the time when I am tempted to compare or feel less than or in some cases we feel better than if we see somebody that doesn't look like they've got their act together. But it is the phrase, she has a backstory I don't know.
And whether it's the woman standing in front of you in the checkout line at the grocery store or a mom that you're looking at across the room at your child's school, or somebody that you see at church every Sunday, we don't know their stuff. We don't know what they're carrying. [00:42:00]
And I think it's fair to say that all of us are hurting in some way, shape, or form in some part of our life much of the time. I once heard somebody say that 95% of life is hard. If you're in that 5%, great, enjoy it. But 95% is hard.
When I say that to myself, she has a backstory I don't know, it pulls me back from the ledge of comparison and plants me on the firm foundation of reality. And that is a gift I give to myself. It's a gift I give to others as well.
Laura Dugger: Jill, thank you so much for being vulnerable. Your humility just has a way of pointing us back to God, who is the author and perfecter of our faith. So thank you very much for joining us today.
Jill Savage: Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:43:00] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:44:02] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. [00:45:08] Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:46:03]
Monday Jul 22, 2019
Monday Jul 22, 2019
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
63. Maximizing Sexual Intimacy During the 3 Most Challenging Seasons in Marriage with Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
**Transcription Below**
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents.
Song of Solomon 1:2 “Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth - for your love is more delightful than wine."
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website
Books by Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:
Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women
The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex
The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment
Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sexual Wholeness
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:07] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
As a teacher or counselor, have you ever wished you could get more training on healthy sexuality or to have better skills in helping people deal with the sexual part of their lives? Sexual Wholeness is a Christian teaching organization desiring to help you accomplish this goal through classes and helpful resources. Visit them online at sexualwholeness.com.
We enjoyed Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner so much on a previous episode that we decided to bring them back to The Savvy Sauce. The Penners are best known for their pioneer work in helping people embrace sex as good and of God.
Today we discuss problems and solutions related to sexual intimacy that arise in various seasons of marriage. [00:01:18] We're going to cover the times of becoming new parents, having teenage children, and effects from aging. Prepare to learn a lot.
Hello, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner.
Joyce Penner: Hello there. We're so excited to be with you.
Laura Dugger: Well, thanks for joining again here at The Savvy Sauce. If anyone missed our previous recording together, could you both just share a bit about yourselves and the work that you do?
Dr. Clifford: Sure. We didn't grow up thinking that we were gonna be sex therapists. In fact, we both grew up as men [00:01:51] and nights and we did not have it written in our high school yearbook that this is what we're gonna strive for. We can assure you that.
Joyce Penner: We are both pursuing our individual professions. I was a nursing professor. And Cal State LAN was actually in charge of developing the curriculum for a new school of nursing at Azusa Pacific University here in California.
Dr. Clifford: Which I should quickly say… which is now ranked as one of the top ten nursing schools in the nation.
Joyce Penner: Just came out.
Dr. Clifford: So, that's a proud thing. As a result of my being asked to talk to a group of women about talking to their kids about sex, and then being asked to teach a course for women on sexual adjustment in marriage, we joined our professions because I didn't want to do it alone on the subject that I wasn't feeling like I was that much of an expert on.
And so we started teaching in 1975. So this is 43 years ago. [00:02:54]
Joyce Penner: We're kind of known as the pioneers in the field of helping the church integrate sexuality as a gift from God.
Dr. Clifford: Then we got trained so that we had some real knowledge about this area. Then in 1979-80 we were asked to write our first book, The Gift of Sex. Our most recent books, our 10th and 11th book just came out this past September. Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex.
Joyce Penner: But each step of the way we feel like we have been called and led to this and see it as such a gift for us personally that we have followed that leading. It's been very fulfilling to see that we can make a difference in couples lives and there's a lot of hope when things aren't going the way you want them to go.
Dr. Clifford: One of the delights has been that since we do this together we've gotten to go all over the world teaching this, from Singapore to Indonesia to Africa, Europe, all over. So it's been a delightful life even though it wasn't what we planned, wasn't what my mother approved of. [00:04:08]
Laura Dugger: Glad for your work and contribution. Let's just dive right into a specific season that presents many challenges in intimacy. Because a lot of our listeners are new moms or moms with children still at home. So maybe for that first-time mom, what can she expect after childbirth?
Joyce Penner: We always say just to review that the three seasons that are probably the most difficult are when you first have children, then when the children become teenagers, and then health changes of aging. So those are probably the three most challenging.
So let's talk to new moms first. The statistics show that after the first child, or even maybe the beginning of the first pregnancy, sexual frequency goes down significantly.
Dr. Clifford: Well, the research shows it goes to about half of what it was before. This is pretty common. We're not saying that's how it should be or that that's an excuse, but it is a fact. And why is that? Because the woman's focus obviously changes to this little baby inside her or the one that's crying in the next room or the one that's nursing off of her. [00:05:19]
Joyce Penner: Well, and the couple's focus changes too, not just hers.
Dr. Clifford: That's right.
Joyce Penner: But then her body changes, and the hormones change, and especially with breastfeeding. To breastfeed you have to have large surge of prolactin, and prolactin shuts down sexual desire and response. And so all of that energy goes into nursing, feeding the baby, and all of that hormonal surge.
Dr. Clifford: Well, and then you may have experienced some physical trauma in the birth that causes pain when a couple reunites. Digressing maybe a little bit here. When a couple is gonna have their first sexual experience after they had a baby, we always encourage them to take it almost like a new experience, like a wedding night experience where they're gonna come at it very thoughtfully and slowly guided by the woman and perhaps not even end up having sexual intercourse with the first sexual contact and move into it very much like we talk about in our book getting your sex life off to a great start.
Joyce Penner: So that if there is pain or changes that have happened, which, well, there will be changes that have happened in the whole sexual birth passageway, so those things have to be accommodated for those changes. And making sure it's a positive experience. [00:06:43]
The main thing we recommend during those years is to keep connected, to be intentional about your sex life, to be intentional about staying connected sexually, even if it isn't that you're having actual sexual intercourse as frequently, making sure that you make it the best it can be given your reality.
Dr. Clifford: And this is often when our sexual experiences shift from growing out of interest and desire and shift to them happening out of a decision for them to happen. See, all of us would like to have our sexual experiences when we're both turned on and both want it. That's the most fun. But once babies come along or the husband is working later, the wife is working late, or whatever it may be-
Joyce Penner: The external stresses of life pull your energy away from being intimate with each other
Dr. Clifford: Then it is most likely to happen by decision, because if you just waiting for desire it may be a long wait. But if you decide you're gonna be sexual and then set it up in the best way it possibly can under your circumstances, then it can bring about interest and desire as you get into the experience itself. [00:08:10]
Joyce Penner: So in other words, taking time in your life to determine when you're going to be together and how you're going to make it happen and who's going to initiate. Babies seem to know when their mom and dad want to have sex. If they've been sleeping through the night, that's sure the time they're going to wake up and cry.
Dr. Clifford: Yeah, they seem to have some kind of radar that picks that up. But the main point is that once you get into the stressful part of life, like with kids, then it is most likely that it's going to happen because you decide for it to happen rather than just out of the spontaneous passion and desire.
Laura Dugger: I love that you say you'll still enjoy it even when you decide, but that you're more likely to enjoy it if you've decided ahead of time. And sometimes once you're already in that mode, the arousal may come after stimulation.
Joyce Penner: Yes. Yeah. You may not move into it feeling like it, but when you have the time to cuddle, to be close, if there isn't demand and it's mutual and you're both going for it, and you're both free to allow yourselves to move as you're ready, and there's that freedom with each other, then it usually ends up being very positive. [00:09:25]
We just have to change our expectations. If you're thinking that you're going to wait until it's the way it was before you had kids, as Cliff said, you'll do a lot of waiting.
Dr. Clifford: Now, I think we need to specifically address the pain issue though.
Joyce Penner: Right, yes.
Dr. Clifford: Because of episiotomy or whatever happened during the birth time-
Joyce Penner: Any tearing, any trauma.
Dr. Clifford: And even if it was a cesarean, then you've got the incision kind of issues. So let's talk about that.
Joyce Penner: Well, the main thing we want to say there, do not continue any sexual activity that triggers pain because pain perpetuates more pain. It's just like when people have their back go out, they give muscle relaxant. Because when your back hurts, if you move or sit in a certain position, you tense your muscles. The more you tense your muscles, the more it hurts. So it makes it worse and worse rather than getting better.
The same thing is true with vaginal pain. If it hurts and you keep doing it, the pain's going to get worse and worse, not better. [00:10:30]
Dr. Clifford: Well, and then, obviously, that will reduce desire, and in all likelihood will even reduce arousal, because you're not likely to get aroused when it's hurting, and for sure you're not going to have an orgasm when it's hurting.
Joyce Penner: You know, do you choose to go to the dentist? Yes, because you need to. But you don't need to have sex with pain.
Laura Dugger: That's good. And so that may be a time, if somebody is listening to this and that's their experience right now, we would certainly recommend reaching out for professional help. And there is hope.
Joyce Penner: Yes. That's for sure. There is help. The most effective help available today for pain with sex is pelvic floor physical therapy. And you can go to pelvicpain.org and find a provider in your area.
Dr. Clifford: These are people who are specifically trained to deal with the muscles in the pelvic region. So they can identify the source of the pain and work with a physician and a therapist or whatever to help you get past that pain so that you can move on to an enjoyable, pain-free sexual experience. [00:11:41]
Joyce Penner: But in today's world, when somebody comes to us with pain, we start with referring them to a pelvic floor physical therapist.
Laura Dugger: That's very helpful. You mentioned another stage where a lot of people say it's difficult is when their children become teenagers.
Dr. Clifford: Yeah. One of the main reasons for that is because they're up all night.
Joyce Penner: You don't get any sleep. You're helping with homework.
Dr. Clifford: You don't want to go to bed before they go to bed, or whatever your system is, and so they may be up till one o'clock, and not a lot of good sexual activity happens after midnight, you know?
Joyce Penner: And then you never know for sure when they're going to come home, so you don't want to be in the middle of the sexual experience, or they're studying in the bedroom next door.
It is okay to tell your kids, you don't want to draw them into your sex life, but to tell them, you know, mom and dad need some privacy. We're taking some time for ourselves this evening. If you guys can do your homework out here or whatever your house setup is.
You don't announce we're having sex, but they probably catch on and it's probably good that they know that you have an ongoing relationship because if you're teaching them to wait for marriage for sex and then they think it doesn't happen in marriage, what are they waiting for? So it's good that they know you are still connected and enjoying each other. [00:13:02]
Dr. Clifford: We had also mentioned the fact of what happens with aging. Let's talk first about what happens for women because they have a more distinct marker in their physical process with menopause.
Joyce Penner: Yes. And with menopause, with the decrease in estrogen and progesterone, two of the hormones, the woman has all the changes of menopause, but with that often comes vaginal atrophy or thinning of the vaginal walls and dryness and all of that can affect the comfort of the sexual experience.
Now, one thing that often has been missed is women keep secreting testosterone, the sexual drive hormone, if they still have their ovaries.
Dr. Clifford: Even if they've had a hysterectomy and the uterus was removed, if the ovaries were kept, then the testosterone is still being produced.
Joyce Penner: So that can be an important decision for women if they're having surgery. Sometimes women have to have their ovaries removed if they have ovarian cancer in their history or they're test positive for the gene for that. [00:14:09] You know, there are reasons the ovaries are removed. But if it's possible to keep your ovaries and not a health hazard, that is a benefit sexually.
But with those changes, there are some things that can be done, even if you've had to have surgery. There's a new product that has to be prescribed, so you'd have to ask your physician about that, see if you qualify for it. But it's called Intrarosa, I-N-T-R-A, R-O-S-A, all one word. It's inserted into the vagina at bedtime, not before a sexual experience, because you don't want the man to absorb this.
But it's relatively new. Some physicians may not yet be aware of it. We just attended a medical conference where this was recommended.
Dr. Clifford: And what does it do?
Joyce Penner: It basically helps your body utilize whatever hormone you have there. And it's found to be very helpful. As doctor said, it's God's gift to postmenopausal women and particularly those who have had cancer and can't use other hormonal replacement therapy. [00:15:20]
Dr. Clifford: And then the other thing that we always recommend for postmenopausal women who are experiencing dryness is that they find a lubricant that works well for them and use that on a regular basis.
Joyce Penner: Some women can use hormonal cream. Again, estrace cream or estradiol or estriol, that's inserted into the vagina. But again, that has to be prescribed. But lubricants that are good, we list the new list and we won't go through all that in our book, Restoring the Pleasure, the new version.
Dr. Clifford: I think you listed in Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women too.
Joyce Penner: I think we did too.
Dr. Clifford: For men, I'll just be very quick.
Joyce Penner: This is key. Very important.
Dr. Clifford: One of the things that happens as men age Is that they may not come to the sexual experience already aroused like was true when they were 20-
Joyce Penner: More like a woman in a sense.
Dr. Clifford: Yeah. They become more like a woman and that is that they get aroused in the experience. That's not a sign that the man is losing his interest or that the woman doesn't turn him on. [00:16:21] It's just a sign that his testosterone is dropping off because as we age we have less and less testosterone.
So one of the major changes is that a man often begins the sexual experience not aroused and then becomes aroused in it, and then he tends to respond more slowly, may not be as firm, may not ejaculate as intensely, may not need to ejaculate with every orgasm. So all of that will be a part of the process of aging. Those things can be dealt with in a lot more detail. But that gives you some ideas.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. This may be brand-new information to some listeners. For the men listening, at what age does that typically start to set in?
Dr. Clifford: Let's give what actually happens. A man reaches his peak of testosterone around age 25. And then on average, that is reduced at a rate of 1% per year. So that when a man reaches age 50 he only is producing 75% of the amount of testosterone he did when he was 25.
Joyce Penner: He might not notice any difference with that. [00:17:34]
Dr. Clifford: At that point. By the time a man reaches 75, he's only producing half as much. And most men notice the difference by the time they reach 75.
Joyce Penner: Even between 50 and 75.
Dr. Clifford: There is a decrease in the intensity of arousal, the frequency of arousal, all of that. And this is why something like Viagra, Cialis, Levitra, those pills are helpful in terms of getting and keeping an erection. We always kiddingly say, so by the time you're 125, you run out of testosterone and then you die. So what's the use of living without testosterone?
Joyce Penner: And testosterone replacement is possible for both men and women. Again, that would have to be worked out with your physician.
Dr. Clifford: Or depending on the person's medical condition, all that.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Today, another anonymous donor stepped up to pay the sponsorship fee and share a very important organization with you. It's called Sexual Wholeness.
Wouldn't you get excited and want to know more if you heard of an organization whose mission statement was commissioning a network of Christian therapists and educators to revolutionize the church with God's truth about sexuality? [00:18:46]
This Christian nonprofit organization, Sexual Wholeness, has that as their mission and they work to accomplish it through classes and video-based resources.
The Institute for Sexual Wholeness provides graduate courses in sex therapy for licensed therapists. These classes are offered in a three-day weekend intensive format in Atlanta, Georgia. Taking these courses will not only increase your ability to deal with sexual issues, but it can also lead to a certification as a sex therapist through the American Board of Christian Sex Therapists.
Sexual Wholeness also has the Christian Association of Sexual Educators, with video-based courses designed for church educators to facilitate in their local communities. Currently, there are three video-based courses: Dance of the Sexes on Single Sexuality, Covenant Lovers with sexual enrichment for Married Couples, and Heroes and Warriors for helping men with sexual integrity.
In a sex-saturated culture, the Church needs trained educators and therapists to cultivate God's truth about sexuality with the freedom and wholeness that it will produce. [00:19:50]
Many of the guests on The Savvy Sauce have taken these courses, and then they come back to share with us all of their findings. These continue to be some of our most popular episodes, and they get shared around the world. We appreciate Sexual Wholeness, and we hope that you'll visit their website to find out more, sexualwholeness.com.
Laura Dugger: What are some helpful conversations couples can have to negotiate various parts of their sex life?
Joyce Penner: Well, we would say, first of all, when they have these conversations, if it's caused stress in the past, which often it has, then we'd recommend they plan to record their conversation. But not that I record Cliff and he doesn't know it. We're not talking about tricking the other person and making them angry. We're talking about deciding together to record it. Because it's amazing how much better we listen to each other, how much more carefully we communicate. We reduce the conflict and the tension by recording. We clean up our act, so to speak.
Dr. Clifford: And then a second thing we would say is, it is important that you not have these conversations in the middle of a sexual experience or a start of one. [00:21:06]
Joyce Penner: You don't initiate by getting into...
Dr. Clifford: By saying, you know, I always hate it when you... That's usually not a...
Joyce Penner: "I wish we didn't do it this way."
Dr. Clifford: Those aren't particularly helpful ways to get each other turned on. So we always encourage that these conversations happen away from the sexual experience.
Then a third thing we'd say is if the couple is not used to talking about sexual issues, this is when it would be so important for them to read something together on the subject.
Joyce Penner: Out loud.
Dr. Clifford: Out loud. Like let's say they have some orgasmic problem, he's a premature ejaculator, she has difficulty with orgasm or whatever, then they would read those chapters in a book and talk about it from there.
Joyce Penner: That would be our book, Restoring the Pleasure, that came out new in March 2016. They could just go to that specific chapter "overcoming problems with release" and read that chapter out loud together. [00:22:04]
They wouldn't have to read the whole book. They might want to eventually. But if they find that initiation is an issue, they just go and read that chapter and then discuss it.
We encourage couples to start with self-help and see if they can do that. If their relationship is really troubled, if they've never been able to talk well about intimate issues without getting into conflict, they may need outside help. But start with reading out loud.
Dr. Clifford: Now, let's quickly go to the subject of what if one of them wants to do something and the other is uncomfortable with it or feels it's wrong? How do you handle that? Well, what's important here is to understand the Bible does not say anything about what is acceptable or unacceptable within marriage. It talks a lot about the sexual boundaries outside of marriage. But in marriage, it just talks... we have the Song of Solomon, which is basically a couple enjoying each other sexually, very erotically.
So what we have come to believe is that we have to follow other biblical principles that would dictate how we make those decisions. One, it always has to be mutually fulfilling. It can't be at the expense of one and at the benefit of the other. [00:23:25]
Laura Dugger: And just to clarify, when you say sexual experience should be mutual, you are not saying orgasm has to happen for both spouses every time. Rather, you're encouraging mutual enjoyment, connection, and intimacy, just not at the expense of one person. And even in your books, you write about quickies as a fun option to keep the spark going until you have a time for longer connection. Is that right?
Joyce Penner: Right.
Dr. Clifford: Exactly.
Joyce Penner: Well, and we talk about these principles both on our website. And in our book, Enjoy, in chapter 9 in our book, Enjoy, if the listeners have that book. And we first ask, is it loving? In other words, does it fit the qualities listed in 1 Corinthians 13? Or is it just self-serving? Is it mutual? Clifford just mentioned that is it as good for one as it is for the other? And then, does it build intimacy? Scripture teaches that we are to become one. We are to become one flesh. We are to become one. [00:24:29]
Dr. Clifford: Let's give a quick example there. We know that couples that want pornography together might get a little turned on or very turned on in response to that pornography. But over time, it moves them apart from each other. So we would see that as something that is destructive to the relationship because it doesn't tend to bring them together, it tends to move them apart.
Joyce Penner: They're responding to the images they see in the pornography, not to each other, so it does not build intimacy. And then the fourth question we ask is, does it in any way distance you from God or violate any biblical principle?
For example, self-stimulation in marriage violates... if the spouse is self-stimulating rather than being with the spouse. For example, if the wife is wanting more sex and he's avoiding because it's just easier to take care of himself or he's hooked on pornography, that would be violating the principle that we are to give ourselves to each other and be there for each other. [00:25:38] So if that's a substitute, then that interferes with that biblical teaching.
Dr. Clifford: And even if there is something that might be okay, a big question that couples often ask about is oral sex, and some are uncomfortable with that and some are more comfort with. The bible doesn't talk about it except it's kind of inferred in the Song of Solomon.
But even if we think of something as not wrong, fully acceptable, we still never engage in any activity that violates the other person even if it's not a moral issue, but violates the kind of the personal stance that that individual has.
Joyce Penner: And often there are things that are violating to a person who was sexually abused. Those activities must be avoided. Even if they're totally wonderful from a biblical perspective, we are not to be violated in the sexual experience. It is to be mutual. [00:26:34]
So if one person is uncomfortable with a certain activity, even though it would be totally acceptable, we go with the most conservative person and find all the things that can be done that are enjoyable for both. And that eventually may even lead to comfort.
Dr. Clifford: I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. So when you say biblically that everything is permitted sexually between a husband and wife, that does not include pornography because that would be adding someone else into the mix beyond the husband and wife. So whether that's a threesome or pornography, that would not fall under the category. Is that correct?
Dr. Clifford: Exactly.
Joyce Penner: Exactly. Yeah.
Laura Dugger: Hey, friends. I don't want you to miss out on this incredible deal. For as little as $5 per month, you can unlock access to our secret bonus episodes for The Savvy Sauce. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can click on the Patreon tab to sign up. Instantly, you will have access to our patron-only podcasts where you can hear an encouraging message for your marriage from Military Spouse of the Year and licensed professional counselor, Corie Weathers. [00:27:44] You can also unlock the episode where certified financial planner Natalie Taylor shares how to enjoy living with the money you have and how to make that money grow wisely.
These are just a few samples of the episodes already loaded for you to unlock in addition to the bonus monthly episode you will receive each month you are a patron. We hope you check it out today.
Well, let's get practical. We'll talk to both the husband and the wife. Let's start with the wife. What's one thing she can do today to increase her pleasure in sexual intimacy with her husband?
Dr. Clifford: When she is able to get with and experience her sexual intensity, that is both going to bring her more pleasure and increase the intimacy between the two of them.
Joyce Penner: But how she does that varies so much from one woman to another. But if she can somehow start by first, we would ask the woman, can she say 'I am a sexual person and that's good and of God'? Can she give herself permission? Does she see it as something for her? [00:28:53] And if not, how can she move in that direction?
So she affirms herself as a sexual person and then learns to listen to those sexual cues within herself and share those with her husband. But it may have to start by her listening to herself first.
Dr. Clifford: The reason we emphasize this so strongly is there are so many women who are very hesitant about letting themselves be a sexual person. Like there's something wrong with that, like you're a slut. If you really, you shouldn't enjoy it too much. It's okay for the man to enjoy it, but the woman shouldn't enjoy it, or else there's something a little wrong with her.
Joyce Penner: And that's a cultural impact, not a scriptural or biblical one.
Dr. Clifford: Now, in terms of the man, if there was one thing we would advise a man, just, you know, in two sentences here, we would say slow down.
Joyce Penner: Follow her lead. Keep his pace behind hers, both in activity and intensity, and it'll be better for both of them. [00:29:58]
Dr. Clifford: Whenever we're teaching seminars with married couples and we mention this idea of slowing down, virtually every woman's head in the audience is nodding. This goes out of the fact that women operate on two tracks whereas men operate on one track. I'm not just saying men have a one-track mind here but-
Joyce Penner: When a man is aroused usually he is also emotionally ready-
Dr. Clifford: ...to proceed to intercourse stimulation and ejaculation. Whereas when a woman is physically aroused, and the research has shown this, she may not be at all ready to proceed.
Joyce Penner: Emotionally.
Dr. Clifford: ...emotionally proceed to intercourse because she's operating on two separate tracks. There's the physical arousal, which she may or may not even be aware of, and that is vaginal lubrication, nipple erection, vaginal engorgement, clitoral erection, all of that. And then-
Joyce Penner: Which is so much less obvious than the man's arousal. [00:30:58] We think one of the reasons men are more in tune with their physical arousal, more in tune with it emotionally, is since they've been little boys, they've been aware when their body reacts and responds. Whereas girls don't grow up with that kind of awareness.
Dr. Clifford: And so, she has to be able to get to the place where her emotions, her feelings join her physical arousal, and that's usually...
Joyce Penner: That takes time.
Dr. Clifford: That takes time and is usually longer than is true for the man. That's why we need the man to slow down.
Laura Dugger: And you've said before that if the man does get too far ahead of his wife, she takes that, maybe internalizes that as pressure.
Joyce Penner: Yeah. And often then she can't keep up. When she's trying to keep up and she's feeling he's getting ahead, she gets anxious, and that anxiety interferes with the natural progress. So even if she doesn't... it's not a resistance by decision, it's just that it becomes a pressure. Yes. [00:32:03]
Laura Dugger: As we're starting to conclude for today, we're called savvy for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge or insight. And as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Joyce Penner: Cliff has been a great affirmer, and I've always enjoyed sex. And we think that started because he pursued me with affirmation always. Also, we got our sex life off to a great start because of a class that I took before we got married in a school of nursing that I was in, which was taught by a Christian female psychologist that really emphasized sex is a positive thing for women in marriage. So we started off with a very good positive set. That is an important formula to incorporate in your life.
Dr. Clifford: Maybe saying that very simply is Get yourself educated about sex. If you really are knowledgeable about it, you will then be able to be much more deliberate about getting the joy that everyone, we believe, can experience. [00:33:11]
Laura Dugger: Well, it's truly been an honor to get to speak with the two of you and hear your wonderful and encouraging ideas related to sexual intimacy in marriage.
Dr. Clifford: Well, thank you for having us.
Joyce Penner: Thank you.
Dr. Clifford: We enjoy it and are eager to interact with anybody that's listening.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:34:14]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:19]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:19]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jul 15, 2019
Monday Jul 15, 2019
62. Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker
**Transcription Below**
Colossians 3:2 (NIV) “Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.”
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Connect with Brittany Price Brooker on Instagram and Facebook @brittanypricebrooker
Brittany Price Booker’s Website
Hidden in My Heart: A Lullaby Journey Through Scripture
The One Year Book of Hope by Nancy Guthrie
Brittany Price Booker’s Full List of Recommended Resources
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products that cost you only $49.99, visit them at fabfitfun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box.
We appreciate all your feedback that you've sent through messages on our website and social media. Many of you have mentioned you love the series titled Everyone Has a Story. We agree with you because it seems God does amazing things through each person's story, especially when it's shared.
Today we get to hear Brittany Price Brooker's story of deep grief and unwavering faithfulness for God. You're going to be so encouraged through the scripture that she brings to life and the wisdom that she shares from lessons learned in her unexpected path.
Here's our chat. [00:01:23]
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Brittany.
Brittany Price Brooker: Hey, girl. Oh, I love being with you today.
Laura Dugger: Well, we are just going to jump right in. You have a powerful testimony where joy and sorrow intersect. And so will you just share that story with us?
Brittany Price Brooker: Yeah, I would love to. I think my story really starts back from growing up in a godly home and really kind of just seeking the Lord at an early age as I watched my parents seek the Lord and watch how they did life. And I think at an early age, you really catch what your parents are doing rather than just watching it and from them teaching you, but you really can catch what they're just seeking on.
I had that life that I'd always dreamed about. I had what my mind thought like the perfect husband and godly man who loved Jesus, who was funny and tall and handsome. We had three little baby boys and was just living the dream of being a wife and a mother. [00:02:25]
I was the little girl that always pretended when I was little to have a husband and kids. I would often tell my husband, I'm literally living my dream right now, even though I was exhausted.
In the fall of 2015, I had three kids under the age of three. Our life was like whack-a-mole. You get one kid down from the nap, you put the next one down, they get up, and it was just crazy. My house was just a mess all the time.
You know, you find their kids slushing everything down the toilet or, you know, scrubbing the toilet with your toothbrush like an expert. And you think, oh my word, how many times have they been doing this? And this is the first time I caught them. Like, this is crazy.
Then one morning, my husband got up to go to work. And at this point, we had a newborn, a one-and-a-half-year-old and almost three-year-old. And he said, "You know, we didn't sleep much last night. I'm just going to go ahead and go early to work."
I remember I was dealing with a lot of pain at the time from childbirth, and we had some difficulties with my health afterwards. [00:03:29] I remember thinking, "Oh, I need to tell him that I've been in pain tonight, and I need your help a little bit more tomorrow night." But the Holy Spirit just said, "Brittany, don't say anything."
So instead, I was like, "Baby, you look so hot in your suit, and I hope you have an awesome day. I love you, baby. I'll see you soon." I said goodbye to him, got all my little babies ready to go to Bible study, which we did every Tuesday morning, so I was not out of ordinary.
I dropped them off. They went to class good, and I sent my husband a quick text and just said, "You'd be so proud of them. They did so good in class."
We went into small group, and at the time we were studying Revelation, and the question was posed, you know, why do you study prophecy anyways? I was feeding my little newborn, and I remember just saying, "For me, I study prophecy because it gives me confidence to trust God no matter what happens in my life."
Literally moments after speaking those words, my phone rang. And like any good Bible study girl, I ignored it the first time. But the second time, I felt like the Holy Spirit said to answer, it was something with Patrick. And so I answered the phone and it was my husband's boss on the other line. [00:04:38] And he said, "Hey, has Patrick been sick?" And I said, "No, I mean, he's a perfectly healthy 30 year old man. I just saw him this morning. Everything's fine. You know what happened?"
And he's like, "Oh, he fell at work. We took him to the hospital. We're gonna come get a vehicle to come get you to bring you here." And I was like, "Okay great." Just kind of thinking, Okay, maybe he got dehydrated, you know, we're tired, we have all these kids, something he's probably cracking up with all the nurses right now. He was just so funny, always cracking jokes with everybody.
It was raining very, very hard in Atlanta where we lived at the time. And so they said, "You know what? We don't really want you driving in the rain, and we're going to put our lights on so you can get there a lot faster. So just hang on a second. We'll get to you."
I figured out child care with my kids, and I waited in the rain for over an hour for these vehicles to come get me. And I'm just thinking, "Can I just get in my car and see my man? I just want to get to my hubs, please."
So what felt like forever as I was sitting there in the rain and just kind of pacing back and forth in front of that church where the Bible study was, was one of those moments I'll never forget where God wasn't just laying a verse on my heart, He was screaming it in my mind and heart. [00:05:54] And all I could think of was the peace that passes all understanding will guard your hearts and your mind in Christ Jesus.
As that vehicle pulled in front of that church and I got in the back and the officer saying, "I'm so sorry, I don't know what happened, the Holy Spirit just kind of took over." And I said, "Whatever it is we can trust God that He's in control."
It took another hour to get to the hospital where my husband was at. I remember getting out and the Lord just impressing on my heart, "Brittany, remember every bit of this. You need to remember." And so just little details that I wouldn't have normally picked up on a homeless man right there. I just remember feeling like he felt so cold, and it was raining, and I wish I could do something. But I was trying to get to my man, and this taxi driver, and all these pedals, and just this trash, and little details, I was remembering.
And I was running in there, and ran past security, and I ran as fast as I could. I remember running in a hallway, and the hallway was full of people with sorrow all over their faces. [00:06:59] And I knew it was coming.
And they sat me down and they said, "Brittany, we're so sorry, but Patrick died. His heart just stopped beating and we don't know why." And in that moment, at the age of 25, with three kids under three, I became a widow and my kids became fatherless. And my entire world changed.
I remember just saying, "The Lord gives and takes away. He is so good." And I started to sing a song I hadn't thought of in so long of, you know, precious Lord, take my hand, lead me on, help me stand. And it's just like a song God gave me in that moment.
But in that second, my entire world changed. Every dream I have, every hope, every vision I had of what my family was going to look like. You know, everything in your life involves that other person that you do life with, the person that is your home.
And so that began just really crazy journey of grief and layers upon layers of grieving and pain and walking through my babies, through losing their daddy, who is their hero in every way. But also in that process, it's been one of the sweetest journey of my entire life, because I've gotten to see the goodness and the preciousness of our faithful Father in a way I could have never, ever imagined. [00:08:24] And you see the layer of God's goodness in the midst of pain. So that's a little bit of our pain journey.
Fast forward and several years later, as I walked through that journey and God called me not just to stay in my pain, but to walk through it and to shift my perspective to heaven instead of the grave. In the process of doing that, I just started bumping into all these people that were dealing with pain. Because, you know, 100 percent of us will deal with struggles and pain in our lives. The difference is not if we'll have pain, but the difference is how will we steward the pain that we're given?
I started to share a story in the midst of it. I came across this family that was going through this terrible hardship, and this other widower was ministering to the same family. He had lost his wife a month before I had lost Patrick. And they had two small children that they had adopted and this crazy story.
So we started helping out this family and our paths crossed, and we started building a friendship that was really centered on the kingdom of God and heaven and living for eternity in the midst of this broken world, but also living with hope and desiring to give hope to other people. [00:09:38] God started just really building a love story that only He could do.
About a year and a half ago, I got married to Daniel Brooker. They call us the Brooker Bunch because when we got married, we had five kids, six and under, and it was a crazy zone. So that kind of fast forward just a little bit to today and now walking through our life today.
Laura Dugger: That is such an incredible story. I've heard it said before that worship is warfare. And you even alluded to a song coming to your heart. Did you have any other tools like worship that you use to really push back the darkness during those most intense times of grief?
Brittany Price Brooker: Yeah. You know, I really felt like the Lord made known to me what you hear about in Scripture, a sacrifice of praise. And why it's called a sacrifice is because it hurts. Anything that we do that's sacrificial, it's taking something away from our comfort, from our security.
When we're giving sacrificially, it's not because, oh, we have all this extra. It's because it kind of hurts to give that, you know? And we feel that. [00:10:46]
I remember just even being in church one day and just wrestling with God, like here I'm sitting alone in church. And I had this little tiny baby on me, and I'm like, "God, I, literally weeks ago, was sitting next to my husband in this church service." And God just said, "Brittany, will you give me a sacrifice of praise even when it still hurts?" And I remember with tears just pouring down my face, just raising both hands in the air and just worshiping God for who He was.
I think that in the midst of going through brokenness and pain, God is calling us to wage warfare and a sacrifice of praise and praising God even when we are not feeling it and speaking out of truth and not out of our feelings. Because our feelings can deceive us.
There was not a moment, still honestly, that I don't feel some sort of pain or sorrow that we deal with. But there's also not a moment, if we choose to view it, that we can't feel gratefulness and thankfulness for who God is. [00:11:51]
So, for me, praise was a huge part of it. And that meant putting on worship music all the time at my house. There's times that my kids would walk in the kitchen while I was cooking and I'd just have my hands raised. Or sometimes we would just dance it out to a fun song that was speaking truth. But always speaking truth over our lives and over our situations, always having that hope from God's Word in the midst of it.
Laura Dugger: Something else that I've always been struck by is the way that the Holy Spirit prompted other believers to really love you well by meeting such specific needs. Can you share a few of those stories as well?
Brittany Price Brooker: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I could write a whole book on just that, because it was unbelievable. I mean, you hear the stories in Scripture of God calling us to be the hands and feet of Jesus. And I had never supernaturally experienced it the way I had when I became a widow.
Scripture says that, you know, widow has a special place in the heart of God, you know, that He cares for the widow and the fatherless, and He is the defender of the widow and a father to the fatherless and a husband to the widow and all these promises in Scripture. [00:13:02] And I got to really see that.
I think one of the situations I remember, I had my three kids at home and they were sick and all they wanted to eat was apples. We're out of apples. We're out of everything in the house. And, you know, it's like a silly thing. Like, I'm not going to load all my kids have fevers and throwing up in a car to go get apples. And I feel very silly calling a friend being like, "Hey, can you bring me some apples right now?" Right. It just seems like such a silly thing.
And I remember one of my friends texted me and said, "Hey, I just dropped something on your doorstep. I just felt like God told me to do it. I know it's kind of silly, but I just felt very specifically He told me to do that." And I opened my door and there's this huge bag of apples. And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" And they had no idea that my kids were sick. Had no idea they were only eating apples.
Then I remember one time on Mother's Day, you know, I was alone on Mother's Day that night and I was just bathing my kids. And I just remember stopping and being like, "God, I can't do this. I just cannot do this. Do you even see me right now? [00:14:05] Do you even care that I'm going through this pain? God, show me that you care. How can I do this? I can't do this one more second. Just give me enough strength for today. Just help me get through this."
And literally, as I finished breathing out that prayer, the doorbell rings. And my friend that has five kids and lives 45 minutes away was on my doorstep on Mother's Day. And she said, "I know this sounds crazy, but about an hour ago, I just felt like God told me, get up and go to Brittany Price's house and go help bathe their kids."
And I'm looking at her like, "I hadn't even prayed that prayer when God told you that, but He knew that would happen." And she just walked right in and started cleaning my house and helping with the babies. And I started crying, saying like, "God, you really do see me." Like you really do care for me in the midst of the hardship.
I remember several weeks after Patrick died, my son being like, "I really want to swing, Mommy." And so I just told him, I said, "Why don't you just start praying for a swing? Because our God cares about everything in our hearts." [00:15:07] And in my mind, I'm like, "Okay, well, I'll be looking for a swing at a garage sale, like maybe we'll find one."
And literally months later, all these people had gotten together and gotten him this amazing playset for my boys. And they didn't even tell me who it came from. They said, "We just want you to know this is from Jesus being a father to your kids." And Peyton looking at that thing, "Mommy, how did they know that I was praying about that? How did they know that we wanted that?" And me to be able to look at and say," God cares about all of our needs and he sees it all."
There's so many stories that we could talk about of that. But the Lord taught me so much in that season of even when it's weird and even when it's awkward, when God leaves those things on your heart, be obedient because you could be the answer to someone else's prayer. And it doesn't just strengthen their faith. It strengthens your faith when you get to see God using you to answer prayers as well.
Laura Dugger: Amen to that. And all of these people that were stepping in, were these church friends that you had? Were they people that you had known for a long time or strangers? [00:16:13]
Brittany Price Brooker: Oh, we had all of the above. I mean, I had strangers. I remember one time going to the car shop, all my tires needed to be replaced. And you're like, Okay, Lord, all for this is crazy, and just kind of feeling the stress of that.
I went to my mailbox that day and a complete stranger, I don't even know how they had my address or anything, said, "I don't know why, but God told me to send you this money." And it was to the dollar exactly what they needed for those tires. So we had strangers from all over the country and all over the world.
I mean, we had several people from Europe, Asia just send us encouraging notes with a scripture that we needed to hear that day. And it wasn't just tangible gifts. It was just words of encouragement that we needed to hear right then and right now. Or sending us a song, "I'm thinking about you or praying for you in that moment." Or I'd be up in the middle of the night grieving and I would get a notification from Instagram and someone saying, "I have no idea what's going on right now, but God won't let me just sleep right now because He just has me praying comfort over your family." [00:17:16]
And so it was just people being obedient, and even when they didn't know us, or if they did know us, and taking that leap of faith with it.
Laura Dugger: That just brings tears to my eyes how personal God is and how He responded in those moments. Like you said before, you even finished your prayer or had that thought. I just love this scripture that talks about the church overcoming Satan. It's from the first part of Revelation 12:11. And it says, "They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony."
Like you said, you've shared your testimony publicly. So how has God revealed to you that He's using your story to encourage others?
Brittany Price Brooker: I love that you share that scripture. Because almost every single time that I get on a stage and share a story, I quote that scripture because I do think stories have so much power. I remember right after my husband died, God told me to do a video and just share. And I was like, "God, I don't have anything to say." [00:18:20]
And I just remember the Lord impressing on my heart that sometimes people hear the gospel, and they have the scripture verse, and sometimes they need to see how the gospel looks like in everyday life. Because God is the God of the everyday mundane. He's the God of the big moments, the small moments. He's the God of it all.
And that's what the gospel is, is how the good news of Christ in every moment of life, the good parts and the hard parts. I think for me, it's being vulnerable enough to talk about pain and talk about our story, even when it still hurts. Like, hey, like, for real, I talk about the worst day of my life all the time. Like, that's not fun. This is crazy.
And it's the vulnerable places of my heart that God's called us to share. But in the midst of being able to share brokenness, but sharing it from the perspective of knowing the great healer and knowing as we share it, I don't want people to be like, Oh, there's Brittany. She's so broken. I want them to say, wow, all I see when I see their lives is the hand of God holding them together, not the broken pieces, but that the healer that cares so much about us, that He holds us together and he holds all things. [00:19:29]
We've been able to see it in so many different ways. And you know what? It's good for us to be reminded that God doesn't waste an ounce of our pain. And it says in scripture that He holds every single tear that we cry in a bottle. And that means not one tear that we ever shed is wasted.
With that, I'm always seeing God do so many amazing things of marriages being restored because people realize what a gift they have in marriage. Because I would talk very openly about what I was missing about marriage and about the struggle and be like, you know, I wish my husband was at work for two years because that means he would be coming back. Or I wish my husband was working late nights because then I know my son will see them again.
Those huge realities of death and how permanent they are and how they affect every day of your life, but also how that should affect our life now to savor every bit of life that we're given. And the result of sharing that stuff, I just heard so many stories about people being like, "You know what? I was taking everything I had for granted. I didn't realize what a gift I had. So thank you for the reminder." [00:20:36]
And nothing that we do is of ourselves. So if there's anything that is good in me or if there's anything that Jesus has done, it's because Jesus did it and Brittany did not do it. Because I have nothing apart from Him. And so anything that he does through His story that He's given us, through His scripture, through His gospel is all glory to God in His kingdom. But it's definitely so humbling to see how God has worked.
I think my favorite story was this girl that was just on Facebook really late at night, and somehow she came across one of my videos and she just sat there crying. And she said it was like the Lord literally sat down with her. She had a schedule to get an abortion the next morning and God wrecked her through that video of what matters. She was doing it out of shame and hiding. And so she canceled her appointment and had that baby. You know, I keep up with her to this day.
It's been amazing to see how Jesus cares so much about His people that He can use anything. He just wants our obedience and our yes to Him.
Laura Dugger: He can use anything. I hope that He uses this talk because I do believe that somebody specifically needs to hear what you said about not an ounce of pain is wasted and God holds our tears that are precious to Him in a bottle. And He really does bring beauty out of ashes.
Brittany Price Brooker: He does. [00:21:57]
Laura Dugger: Is there anything specific that you would want to communicate both to someone who is walking through grief right now and communicate to someone who is a friend and supporting their loved one who's dealing with their own tragic situation?
Brittany Price Brooker: Yeah. That is a loaded question for sure. But as far as somebody that is walking through pain... and, you know, grief is not just the loss of a person. It's the loss of life. It's a loss of hope. It's a loss of dreams. It's a loss of expectations that you thought your life would look like. And so really, there's a lot of people walking through that.
I think the biggest thing I would say is hope even when it hurts. Keep holding on to the hope of God, even when it hurts. And keep swimming for sure, even when you don't see the shore. Because sometimes you don't see it ahead and you've got to swim in faith, knowing, God, as I do this in faith, I know I'm going to see the shore. [00:22:57]
And God will keep giving you the strength to make it moment by moment. And you go through stages where, you know, like I felt like I was bobbing up and down, you know, and then I'd get above air and then I felt like I would go down again. Then you start treading water.
And the most beautiful thing I was able to see was that God just wants us to depend on Him moment for moment for that manna for each day. And He didn't give me the strength for raising teenagers by myself, because that's not what I was dealing with that day. You know, what I needed to do in that moment was feed my toddlers and nurse my little baby and speak God's promises over us.
God is calling you to be faithful in what you're doing today in this moment. And given those moments in the hurt and the pain, don't try to fill it with other things. Feel it. Give God all the pain that you have and yield it to Him and say, "God, make beauty out of this. God, what is your purpose in the midst of this pain? God, show me your perspective in the midst of it. [00:23:58]
And when we do and when we open God's word and ask Him to speak, every time that we open His word, He will speak because He is faithful to do that. He is faithful even when we are faithless, even when we have nothing in us and we just yield to Him.
God says He wants a broken contrite spirit before Him, one that is humble before Him. And when we do that, He will speak and He will fill us up with what we need because He is faithful to do that.
And I think in the midst of watching friends and watching people walk through pain... you know, we have this tendency, especially as believers, to try to jump in and fix it. We want to say the right things. We want to do the right things. And I think the biggest thing is just showing up, just being a friend, not trying to fix it, but feel the pain with them.
I think one of the most important things that we can say is, I'm so sorry for your pain. Or I can't imagine what you're walking through. Or I'm praying for you. I'm loving you. Not, Oh, God is doing this. There's a purpose in all this. You know, this is so hard. But I think if this wouldn't have happened, this would have happened. [00:25:01]
There are so many things that people could say, but I think there's beauty and power in the simplicity of just saying, I am so sorry for your pain. Acknowledging what people are walking through, acknowledging your love for them and just saying, I'm here for you. That means showing up even when it's awkward.
I had people that just showed up on my doorstep and said, Can I just vacuum your floors? Well, on a normal day, I would have never just let somebody just come in and vacuum my house. But in those moments, God knew I needed an extra set of hands. And I got to see God's faithfulness in that.
So you can be that friend to other people. You can be the hands and feet of Jesus when God gives you those nudges, because God is such a personal God. I always tell people, God knows what your friend needs more than anybody else. It's more than I know. Even if it's a young widow or even if it's someone walking through loss. Jesus knows their hearts. Jesus knows their needs greater than anybody else's. [00:25:56]
And so as you seek Him and you say, God, show me what it looks like to love this person, He will give you the best ideas. I think the greatest thing that we could ever do for anybody is to pray for them. And there are moments where I literally can feel the prayers of God's people upholding me when I should have been drowning, and yet I was floating on God's grace.
That is not something lightly that we say or something that say, Oh, yeah, we'll just pray for you because that's all we can do. No, praying is the greatest thing we can do.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Getting really practical, were there any resources that you like to recommend to people of all ages who have lost a loved one from kids to adults? [00:28:10]
Brittany Price Brooker: There's not like a specific resource that really can be for, you know, a five-year-old and a 50-year-old. One of the things that I did was listen to worship music, which can be a 5-year-old or a 50-year-old.
One of the things that we listened to was scripture lullabies music, which is just a calm music that's literally all scripture. We would listen to the one on Jesus and His hope and who He is and what He came to do. There was a song on eternity in heaven that just every time I'd hear it, I'm like, "Lord, we can do this. We can make it another moment." That was a very practical resource.
For me, every person that I know that's going through loss, I like to give them The One Year Book of Hope, which is an amazing resource of encouragement. But it's short and sweet. Because a lot of times when you're walking through pain, you can't focus on things for very long. You're not going to sit down and read endless chapters. Some people like to do that. And then there's other people that get overwhelmed after reading two sentences.
So sometimes it's listening to the word of God. Sometimes it's listening to music. And then sometimes it's just getting those little bits of truth, even if it's a couple of sentences here, a couple of sentences there. [00:29:17] But I have a whole list on my website of different resources that I like to recommend from specific different types of pain.
I also would say counseling is very, very effective. I think that's for all ages. That having somebody that's a neutral source, that's not emotionally engaged in your story, that can speak into it from a different side. Because I think even in the midst of grief, there can be sin and difficulties that cause even more pain. That doesn't have to be there. So if you have somebody that can speak into your life and guide you in the process, that really helps you as well.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. Such a good reminder, and hopefully encouragement to somebody that you would encourage them: don't wait long to dive into counseling and have somebody else walk that with you.
Brittany Price Brooker: Absolutely. As soon as you can, the better.
Laura Dugger: We'll definitely link to those resources on your website if that's okay. Because again, I'm just thinking if somebody else is in a similar situation and they just need something to grasp onto, even going back in your story, you were grieving yourself and then you have three little precious kiddos that are grieving. What did that look like day-to-day?
Brittany Price Brooker: I was a stay-at-home mom. When my husband passed away, I was doing cloth diapers, coupons, you know, everything we could do to make it by so I could stay home with my kids at that moment. And so I wanted to keep as normal as possible. So for me, I wanted to be with my kids. I wanted to spend the night with them. I wanted to be with them. [00:30:49]
Practically speaking, one of our friends set up a system... and it was different people that were really close. They were only in my inner circle where I could completely trust them. But they would come over and bring dinner, and they would just be an extra set of hands.
They'd bring dinner, and they would just help me if I was trying to get one out of the high chair, getting fed so I could go bathe the other child. And they were entertaining the little newborn and burping him or whatever so that they could just be an extra set of hands like a husband would be at night. Those were just such pivotal nights for me to get a break. And then also just to have the fellowship of an adult to talk to you.
I also had one woman that she was a counselor as well. And so she would bring dinner, help me put the kids down. She actually has a ministry to widows specifically. And she would help me get the boys down and then she would sit and she would counsel me. [00:31:43] She would ask me the hard questions and encourage me. It was just so life-giving for me to have those because it is a lot to deal with the grief of your kids.
But I think for me what was very important was to keep things as routine as possible for them because their entire world just changed too. And so anything you can do to give them the security to know that we're going to be okay. And that doesn't mean I didn't cry in front of them and didn't talk about that. Because I did very often because I wanted them the freedom to grieve as well. But I did want them to be near me. I wanted them to feel safe and secure that we were still a family even though part of us was gone.
Laura Dugger: You said you were 25 when this happened. Just the wisdom beyond your years, as we hear your story, is incredible and clearly a gift from the Lord. As you reflect back on all your growth over almost the past decade, what are a couple of lessons that stand out the most to you? [00:32:42]
Brittany Price Brooker: I'd say that God's goodness isn't dependent on my circumstances, but rather His character through the circumstances. Before walking through this, a lot of times, you know, often when people speak, they'll be like, Yeah, everything is going good, God is so good, you know, when they're on this mountaintop of life. But then when they're in the valleys of life, are we still saying that God is so good? Because that's when it truly matters.
And, you know, God is good on all those seasons. He's the God of the hills and the valleys, and he's the Lord over it all. And we can see God's goodness in all those. But I think I've really seen when God took away everything in my mind of just the comforts and the dreams and all those things that were totally removed. And here I am being something I never imagined in my entire life, a single mom, a widow, doing life alone, so lonely, dealing with all this pain. And yet I was able to feel the presence of God and His goodness in a way that I could have never imagined. [00:33:46] And so I got to experience His goodness and know that He is so good, even when circumstances are not good.
Then I would really say that He is enough. I think so many times we say, like, God is enough. But in those moments at night when I lay in bed alone just hurting and missing my husband, and I would just ask the Lord to surround me with His presence, and He would. I got a taste of heaven in the midst of God's presence because the greatest part of heaven is not our loved ones that are there. It's the presence of the living God all the time.
I remember even in the car, one time I was driving, and God was just meeting with me. And I just remember crying and being like, "This moment right here is the greatest moment I've ever experienced, and I cannot even imagine what heaven will be like, because it'll be like this all the time," because His presence was so thick.
And even though nothing in my life had changed, everything felt okay because God was so present with me. And He is our ever-present help in times of need. I would say that God really is enough and His presence is enough for us to get out of bed. It's enough for us to hold on to hope, even when it hurts and even when the darkness feels like it's surrounding us.
And then that Scripture truly is, it's living and active. And it really is the bread of life. And I think that's how over and over again, going to God's Word and Him giving me enough. In Psalms 119, it talks about, I would have perished my affliction if it wasn't with the Word of God. I used to hear that and be like, wow, do you think you could be a little bit more dramatic, David? Because that's ridiculous.
But now after I've walked through suffering, I can tell you, had it not been the Word of God, I would have perished my affliction. God used the Word of God through His people, through reading, through listening, to give me the eternal hope and the eternal perspective to make it through these earthly trials. [00:35:46]
Then the other thing is just really community is so important and absolutely necessary as we walk this journey of life. I think I've learned the importance of having those godly, amazing friends and mentors in your life in every season to be able to be raw and vulnerable and intimate in each other's lives so we can hold each other accountable and encourage each other and be the people that lift each other's arms when your arms feel too weak to even stand.
I had those people that were behind me just holding me up when I felt like I couldn't take another step. And they'd say, "I'm taking it with you. You can do this. We've got this." And the Lord used that in a mighty way.
Laura Dugger: I love all of those lessons. That's so encouraging.
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What does life actually look like for you now? [00:37:04]
Brittany Price Brooker: Our life is a crazy zone. I kind of tease that it's like a traveling circus. Some moments I'm scrubbing toilets and praying for the hearts of my kids and begging God for the strength to make it through another day, guiding and shepherding these little hearts, because now we have five hurting hearts.
We have two adopted children that have extra layers that we're just praying through and asking God for wisdom with. That's a treasure and a gift to be able to be given that season as well.
Then sometimes it looks like being faithful and sharing on a stage and traveling and getting on an airplane, you know, and flying somewhere and speaking and hopping on a red-eye to get back to my baby so they can wake up to mama. It's definitely just being faithful in every season.
I think there's one thing I've learned is that God just cares about our hearts. It's not about what you're doing. I'm serving God just as much when I'm folding laundry and having a heart of worship as I am if I'm speaking in front of hundreds of ladies or if we're doing a podcast interview or we're doing a TV episode or whatever. [00:38:06]
It doesn't matter what we do. It matters what our heart is behind it. And being faithful with what God's called you to do, because we can do so many things out of a heart of pride or a heart of selfishness. But when we do things out of a heart of worship, it makes everything give glory to God even in the mundane.
And I think it's even harder for us in the midst of the mundane to give glory to God and to find worship in the midst of it. And so, you know, it's a lot of craziness. And sometimes it looks like doing IEP meetings and taking my kids to therapy or, you know, the other day putting on crazy loud music and saying, let's go jump on mommy's bed, you know?
But having this fun moment in the midst of the crazy and saying, God, in today, in this moment, how can I be faithful with what you've given me and entrusted with my hands? Because even though my hands are so full and we have so much going on with ministry and with our kids' hearts and our family and school and so many things, I want my heart to be found faithful in the midst of all that my hands have. [00:39:13]
Laura Dugger: Just hearing how full your plate is and that you still talked about valuing community, how do you still make that happen in the midst of all these people in your home?
Brittany Price Brooker: It looks like saying no a lot. We adjust our schedule frequently because like everybody, you know, what works in one season may not work well in a different season. I used to be in an amazing small group that we met once a week and I found in this new season, I just didn't have the space in my life. So it looked like meeting with a group of ladies once a month and talking with my mentors weekly. You know, that I can do that on the phone. I can do that after the kids are in bed, but I have to leave my house.
Or it looks like for us, we're pouring into a couple or trying to speak into someone's life or even having a mentor over to speak in our life. It looks like right now we put our kids to bed and we have coffee and some fruit and some cake or whatever after they're in bed in our living room.
It doesn't look like we're meeting out on the town or this and that, but it's just being faithful with what we do have. [00:40:19] I think so often we think it has to look like, oh, I have to meet for coffee or I have to do this and I have to have this block of time. But I think just like discipleship, it looks like... a lot of times, if I have a younger girl come over, it's like, Okay, I'll be folding laundry and I'll be doing this, but I would love to talk to you in the midst of it and hear what God's doing in your heart and life and how I could pray for you.
That's everyday life. That's reality. Because my reality is not that I can have coffee for 10 hours a day. But it's being faithful with the time that we do have and saying, "God, in this season of my life, in this capacity, what does it look like to build up community? What does it look like with the relationships that I want to be intentional with, that I want to grow?
My husband is the most gifted person I've ever met with relationships. He challenges me so much with that. And just is so practical. And so we often have to sit down and say, Okay, what are the relationships that we feel like the Lord is calling us to pour into in this season? And what are the people that we look at their lives and say, man, that's how I want to be? And asking them, what did you do to get to this place? Or what do you wish you would have done differently when you were our age? [00:41:30]
And having a teachable spirit to say, what would you say to us? What do you see in our life? Do you see anything in our life that's not glorifying God? Do you see anything in our lives that needs to go? Or what would you say? And being teachable in that season as well.
Laura Dugger: Brittany, you are such an inspiration. If people want to follow up after hearing you, where can the listeners find you online?
Brittany Price Brooker: I am on Instagram at Brittany Price Brooker, and Facebook, Brittany Price Brooker, and my website, brittanyprice.com, or you can just google my name.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Well, again, we will link to all of this in the show notes. I have just one more question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Brittany Price Brooker: Okay, so I'm a spiritual and non-spiritual answer to this. My savvy sauce for making myself look a little bit more awake than I truly feel in this season, it's definitely mascara, a good mascara and concealer, girl. I'm all about those things. [00:42:42]
And then something that I would say that always challenges me, encourages me to make sure I'm getting the Word of God into me every day, is the Daily Audio Bible. It's this app that I listen to. I actually do this daily life principles Bible, which is like a one-year plan of scripture where you have Old Testament, New Testament, Psalms, and Proverbs. So I read that. But then I also have this audio one that's kind of like a couple steps ahead of it.
So I often get very different things, even though it's the same passages out of it. So sometimes there's seasons where you may have longer time in the morning to spend in the Word. And then there's other seasons where God just wants your Yes in your five minutes here, your five minutes there, but being diligent with the time that you have. But I love listening to the Word of God because I pick up so many different things when I listen, opposed to just reading it.
Laura Dugger: That is such a good idea. I love that.
Brittany Price Brooker: Yeah, they even have a kid's version. And my kids love listening to it because they think the kid is so funny. I love my kids being able to listen to it and get things out and study the same passage together. [00:43:48]
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's incredible. Could you say the name of the app again?
Brittany Price Brooker: Yeah, it's Daily Audio Bible.
Laura Dugger: Well, this time together has just been full of so many emotions, and I'm really overwhelmed with gratitude for your faith and for your willingness to encourage each one of us today. So thank you for meeting us here.
Brittany Price Brooker: Aw, it's such a gift to be with you. We're just so thankful because it's not our faith, but it's who we have faith in. And He is such a faithful God in every season. I'm so thankful for the opportunity to share about Him today.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:44:44]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:45:46]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:46:45]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jul 08, 2019
Monday Jul 08, 2019
61. Marital Communication and Intentional Family Life with Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Susan Seay
**Transcription Below**
James 1:19 (NIV) “My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,"
Susan Seay is an author, podcaster, and speaker. She is a married mom with 7 kids who sees motherhood as a calling and a privilege. Her goal is to create a home where her family can thrive - physically, emotionally, financially, and spiritually. She and her husband have broken free from the burden of perfection, and she models a life that invites us to do the same!
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Episode 32: Mentor 4 Moms Podcast (Episode with Susan and Her Husband on Feeling Like a Single Parent in a Married Relationship)
Connect with Susan Seay on socials: @susanlseay
Thank You to Our Sponsor: FabFitFun #fabfitfunpartner (Enter Code: SAVVY at checkout to receive $10 off your first box)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products but cost you only $49.99, visit them at fabfitfun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box.
Susan Seay is my guest today, and she is a parent, an author, a podcaster, and a well-known speaker. You're going to love this candid conversation where she shares the highs and lows of parenting, the lies we believe, and the truths that we can replace those lies with in order to enjoy this calling to the max.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Susan.
Susan Seay: So good to be here.
Laura Dugger: Can you just start us off by sharing more of your story? [00:01:17]
Susan Seay: Well, I am a mom to seven living in Austin, Texas. I am one of those people who, when I had my first child, I absolutely just fell in love with motherhood. I just thought, I'm smitten. I'm no good for the marketplace, for corporate, which is the direction I thought I would go.
I had this life plan. I was going to finish college, get my degree, go and work in the workforce two to three years, and then get married and have kids. Like I just had this plan. And instead, we got married while we were still in college. I still had one more year of school and my husband was in grad school.
And then two days before I walked the stage to graduate and get my degree, we found out we were expecting our first. So I went from college to home and have not regretted a moment of it, even though none of it is the way I thought life would go.
Laura Dugger: After that first blessing that you found out about, can you get us up to date now? How many are in your family currently? [00:02:24]
Susan Seay: So we have seven. We have one boy, six girls. Most people love to know, like, where does our son fall? He's the oldest. He's 22, and my youngest is 9.
Laura Dugger: So quite the age range. You also homeschool them, is that right?
Susan Seay: I do. We've been homeschooling for 18 years.
Laura Dugger: And did you always want a big family and envision yourself homeschooling?
Susan Seay: None of that. Like, no. My husband, when we were dating, he... and we talking about, you know, you want a family, you want kids. He was like, Yes. I'd like one, maybe two kids. And I was like, Well, that's good, because I want two, at most three, and that's it.
As I already shared with you, I was smitten. I found myself saying, just one more, just one more. Every time we had a baby, I was like, Just one more. All of our friends were completely hitting the done button, right? They were like, we've had our two, we've had our three, we're done. And I was like, "I don't know if I have that button. And if I do have it, maybe it's broken. Like, why am I still wanting more kids, and everybody around me is done already and not even interested in having more?" [00:03:40]
I just found myself really excited about the growth of our family and eager to just have all the children that the Lord really had for us and seeing what this adventure would become and unfold. It's been an adventure for sure. It ain't been all roses and happy days, but it's nothing that I regret. And I'm so glad.
But when we had number seven, I finally felt that completion. I finally felt like now we're done, like our family is complete. Everybody's here who's supposed to be here. It was really this... it's a surreal moment of completion and peace. And that's where we are.
Laura Dugger: I love that, the peace that comes when God directs your family. I'm so curious, have you always been this intentional since having one child in the home? Or what did that journey look like to become such an intentional family?
Susan Seay: I think somewhere deep within me, it's always been there. [00:04:43] I don't know that I fully recognized it or appreciated it until it was put in the context of motherhood. I think in the past, growing up, words that were used about me were natural leader, organizer, gatherer of people, that kind of thing. On the negative side, bossy, always being in charge, always speaking up, always have an opinion.
So whether it was people encouraging me or people frustrated by my skill set, it wasn't until it was put into the context of motherhood that I started to really begin to see the benefits of the gifts that God just naturally put within me.
And then I just had this inner hunger for more resources to help me cultivate that in a way that was God-honoring, so that I wasn't bossy and hovering and just being teamed too much with my kids and with my husband. I just had this hunger for resources to help me to manage those skills in a way that would create the loving environment that I felt like our home should have. [00:05:48]
Laura Dugger: That's so fascinating because God clearly gave you this amazing personality and now you're stewarding it to bless the lives of so many, myself included. From your story that you've shared, it sounds like you have littles, middles, and big kids. So from your experience so far, what has been your hardest phase of parenting?
Susan Seay: I will say it this way. I think the hardest part of the journey of motherhood for me has been this one particular lie. There are several lies that I've believed over time, but this one particular one is a hang up for me. And that is this expectation that at the next phase it's going to get easier.
So when I had little ones and I was up all night and up all day and I just never felt like I got time to myself, my body wasn't my own, my time wasn't my own, nothing in my house was my own, it had spit up or, you know, potty training residue everywhere. You know what I mean? Like it's just like what happened to my life is kind of how I felt myself feeling. I kept thinking when they get a little bit older, this will get easier.
And then they got a little bit older and there's the sibling bickering and fighting and whining and there's people starting to get involved in activities, and that's encroaching on, air quote, my time. [00:07:14] And there's just this next phase of needs and challenges.
And I thought, you know what? When they get a little bit older, it'll get easier. And I keep believing that every phase, the next phase will be easier than this one. And now that I'm here and I have three adult-age children, I still think I'm trying to figure out when does it get easier? And I realized, No, I just bought into that lie, hook, line, and sinker, that the older they get, the more independent with their own lives it'll get easier.
I have now found that that's not the case. Motherhood is not about easy, but it is about purpose and intention if we allow it to be.
Laura Dugger: That's a good truth to replace that with. I can definitely relate to buying into that lie. It helps just to put verbiage around it. I know that you've mentioned before that there was even a time when you felt like a single parent. So will you bring us back to that season and then share how it was redeemed? [00:08:19]
Susan Seay: Yeah. That one was a very difficult season in our marriage and in our family. Gratefully, I think our kids were young enough that they didn't really understand all that that meant for me personally. And it's been a journey for my husband to really understand what it meant for me.
But that season was marked by a time when... my husband and I are both entrepreneurial and he had a corporate job that was paying the bills and taking care of the needs until we could be in a position to have our own business, which was always our goal.
He was working really hard to grow the business. That meant that he just spent more and more time on the needs of the business and all that was happening after he finally reached that mark where he could leave his corporate job. And that was... goodness, we've had our own business now close to 18 years or right at 18 years. So it's been an amazing journey. [00:09:18]
But, you know, when you have a new business, it needs almost as much as a newborn baby. Right? Like it needs everything and it needs so much of your time and so much of your resources. So he was pouring into that, which meant that everything in our household pretty much came to me.
And if you were to put down a list of like who was handling meals, that was me. And who was handling the house, that was me. And who was handling kid fights, that was me. And who was reading them the Bible and praying with them, that was me.
You know, it's like one thing after another. The list just looked like a whole lot of Susan and not a whole lot of him on the list. He did the "I went to work and I earned the money". To which I don't want to discount that. I mean, we're grateful for that. And this couldn't have happened without that. But it was a lonely time for me.
I just really felt like he and I were building this family together but the running and the managing and the care and nurturing of the family was all me. And I never wanted that to be our dynamic, yet that's where we found ourselves. [00:10:21]
So he and I just hit this moment when my youngest was born and I took him out to a restaurant to set him down to have a conversation about it, and it didn't go well. I didn't share my words. Well, I guess I was too hurt and disappointed and frustrated and angry to really be able to express myself well.
And he was stuck in a cycle of any time I did approach him, he felt defensive. Like he wanted to plead his case. You know, he was before the court. He wanted to plead his case. "I'm doing the best I can and I'm doing all I can to provide for you guys." You know, aren't you well taken care of? Like, what am I doing wrong?
We finally came to a point where we could finally hear each other. And that was huge for us. We had to learn how to lower our defenses and not treat one another as if we're the enemy, but recognize and remember that we're on the same team.
And when we're on the same team, now we get to discuss our strategies and our plans and our next steps versus feeling like the other person is the one that's keeping us from winning this game. [00:11:31] Instead, we say, I need you and you need me in order for us to win this game, in order for us to run this race successfully.
So when we finally heard each other, the huge aha for us was how much we were both running this independent race and hoping that the other person was okay and just not really checking in and ensuring that we were both rowing and pulling in the same direction.
And so I think, if anything, the biggest lesson we've learned from that is just how important it is for us to communicate and not to assume simply because there's not huge fights and arguing or disagreements that are happening. That to not assume that means everything's okay. But that we should check in with one another and really ensure that we are united in our effort to care for all of the needs for our household. And that doesn't just mean monetary needs and physical needs, but also the spiritual and emotional needs of our home. [00:12:40]
Laura Dugger: I'd love to drive that home even further. Just imagining a woman out there, maybe her husband is working hard for the family. Maybe he comes home and kind of checks out or just hangs out on the couch, and it's an unhealthy cycle where she's kind of wanting him to read her mind that she's got a lot going on, would appreciate the help. What would you speak into her in that situation?
Susan Seay: First, let me say I can so relate to that scenario because that was him. He would work long hours and then he would come home and he would kind of crash in the chair and he'd either pull up into his laptop to get just one more thing done or he'd be on his phone taking just one more call. Or he would be on the other end where he would just turn on the TV and just stare at it. Usually, things that I don't even want to watch, you know?
It was a difficult time because I felt like he was home physically, but he still wasn't with us. He still wasn't connecting with us. [00:13:42] I would feel very frustrated with him because I'm like, "Hello, all these people that you see around here need to be fed and they need baths and they need their teeth brushed and they need to be talked to and held. They got stories they'd love to share with you. And they've had things happen today that they'd love to engage with you, but you're still not really available, even though you're physically present."
And I've talked to so many women who have felt this season of feeling like they're single in their pursuit of being intentional with their families, yet they are in a married relationship. It could be sometimes it's military families, sometimes it's husbands who travel a lot for their jobs. And then it's others where husbands are just home, but they're checked out.
One of the things that was key for me... well, I'll give you two because two come to mind. One is I guarded my heart against bitterness. I did all that I knew to do to not become bitter towards my husband so that my words towards him didn't have that bite to them and that edge of sarcasm, which is just that veiled anger. [00:14:48]
That took a lot of work and energy. Can I just tell you that? It took a lot for me to do that because I did feel resentful. I felt taken for granted. I felt not seen. I felt lonely. I felt just frustrated at all of the empty promises he made. Because he wanted to do things that he would come home and be too tired to do them.
The other thing is, along with guarding my heart against bitterness, I really guarded against nagging him and becoming his constant reminder. Remember, you said this. Remember, you said this. Like, remember, you said this. Because I recognized that it was really my attempt to control and really my attempt to get my way and make him do things that I wanted him to do or that he even said he would do.
That when he said it, like if we both were honest, he couldn't fulfill that. "Oh, I'll make sure I get that done for you tomorrow. Well, if you have a meeting tomorrow evening at 6:30 and you're not going to get home till 8:30, it's not even possible for you to do that. But you're trying your best to make me happy and trying your best to contribute to the household in a different way. [00:16:01]
So I just committed that I would say things to him and maybe I'd write them down, but I wouldn't go over and over and over them because it was really just me berating him for not keeping his promises and just continuing to fuel this resentment and anger, which could lead to bitterness. So the two are kind of connected, but they were two practical things that I did.
So how did I handle that? I found other outlets. Of course, there's the obvious thing: prayer was huge. But I was good about having a trusted girlfriend where I could talk it out and I knew that she could help me to remember the truth in the midst of it.
It wasn't a friend who I would gripe about my husband, she griped about her husband and we just end up in this great old gripe fest. That was never our relationship. That wasn't the way we interacted with one another.
But we were honest about how we were feeling and we created a safe place in our relationship to be honest. So we didn't have to say, oh, everything's okay and we're so happy and I'm just a little upset, but it's not a big deal. Like we were able to say, "Girl, I'm mad. I'm furious. I'm disappointed. I'm hurt. I'm livid right now." [00:17:17]
And then we could walk through those feelings. And by the end of it, we would go, now, what do we know to be true in spite of what we see? What do we know to be true? We may feel lonely, but are we alone? We may feel disappointed, but where is our hope really met?
And we would answer those questions according to scripture and according to truth so that by the time we got off the call, it was like its own mini counseling session. You know, when you've got a good girlfriend, it's like having a mini counselor who just hasn't been through professional training, but she's like a Ph.D. in sister and sisterhood. It just makes all the difference.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. So prayer and accountability. And even looking at the flip side, I mean, you've said your husband is such a great man. It wasn't a character thing. But I wonder if he was assuming like, "Hey, Susan is very capable. She's doing this and hasn't asked for help." So is there anything on his side that he said "this was really helpful for breakthrough on my end"? [00:18:23]
Susan Seay: So he and I actually got to record a conversation on my podcast where we talk about this in detail and he gets to kind of share his side. I will say that for him, he had... he still does sometimes. Like it's just part of the way his mind works.
What makes him so brilliant and amazing and successful in business is his ability to focus. And he can laser in and focus on the target and a goal and he can get us there. And he makes it happen.
The flip side or the other side of that story is if things aren't breaking and falling apart and they're not big fires and explosions, if there's not some huge fanfare, it's almost like he doesn't notice. So, for him, he got the realization of how important it is to still check-in, even though things on the surface seem like they're okay.
One of the things he does when he comes home to this day, and I love it about him, is he greets the kids. He says hello to everybody and he comes and gives me a personal greeting. And he'll look me in the eye and he'll just say, "Hey, babe, I'm home. How are you?" [00:19:36]
And it just gives me a moment to know I have his full and undivided attention. And even if sometimes I try to brush it off and I go, "Oh, I'm fine," he'll look at me like he's searching for, Are you really fine or you just don't want me to worry or are you upset? I keep checking in. And we usually follow up with that. Once the house is settled and we're in the room alone, he'll follow up with that. Like, Hey, I noticed that you looked a little... Were you tired? Are you angry? Like he'll follow up on whatever observation he made when he initially came in the house.
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful to hear kind of the other side as well. We will certainly link to your podcast, the Mentor for Moms podcast, and specifically to that episode.
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Okay, so we've been talking about some of the challenges in parenting. So on the flip side, what has been your most enjoyable part of motherhood?
Susan Seay: One of the things that I absolutely love about motherhood is watching my children discover more about the unique ways that God created them. One of the risks for us, because we have such a big family, you know, there's nine of us at one point that was living in this household, is to kind of lump everybody together or to lump them into categories.
I jokingly call them my bigs, my middles, and my littles. And it would be easy for me to just kind of, "Hey, you're the big kids. This is what you do. Middle kids, you do these things. Little kids, you do these things." But it was important to me to see them as individuals, and for them to be able to discover how did God uniquely create each one of them.
So the two working together, me trying to see them and them discovering unique ways that God created them, has just created this fun, unique expression in each one of them. [00:23:07] Even though they have some similarities in personality, they still have these unique things that they own about themselves. And I love infusing that sense of confidence and honor for how they've been created.
Laura Dugger: I love that. And it kind of leads me into another question. So as you're spending all this time with your kids and seeing them as individuals, are you noticing that they have more similarities or more differences from one another?
Susan Seay: I am in some friend circles where we're just the nerdy types. You know, my bachelor's degree is in psychology, so I've always loved studying how people think and how they behave and how they interact. What are their inner motivations? Like all those kind of things.
And a lot of the people that are around right now love things like tools like the Enneagram. I personally haven't gotten into the Enneagram because it's just a little too much. It's nine different possibilities. And within this household of nine, it's just too much. [00:24:10]
So for me, I love more simplified programs. One of them is similar to the DISC program where it has four different personality types. So we've identified those four within our home and who fits in what category. We tend to fall heavy on the leader side in this household. So we got a lot of strong opinions and strong personalities.
With that context, an umbrella set, within that it's neat to see how they uniquely express that leadership or uniquely express the different parts of that personality. Even though two of them may be in the same category, they still have some differences that are their own personal unique factors that they add.
And so as we have discovered that leaned into that, it becomes a way of us engaging with one another in the home. So that I recognize when I'm trying to correct my daughter, who is the same personality type as me, bless, because that's God's grace, He's like, "Hey, girl, you want to see yourself? I'll give you a mini you. And you get to kind of see what other people deal with and how you deal with challenges." [00:25:20]
I recognize I engage with her differently than I do her sister, who is more sensitive and feels things and is more deeply impacted and takes things to heart than the daughter who's like me. When I go to correct them, I correct them differently. I correct them according to how they're uniquely created.
I want to honor how God's created them while still offering them the correction and the instruction and the wisdom that will help them to have healthy relationships to one another and to God the Father.
Laura Dugger: Let's take those two daughters specifically. Let's say they disobey in the same way. How would you correct the behavior in the more sensitive one and the more driven leader one?
Susan Seay: So the driven leader one can handle to direct and appreciates direct. So if I come into her, I might ask her, "Hey, who slammed the door?" And she's like, "I slammed the door" because that's exactly how she'd be like, very bold about it. Like, "I did it." And I'm like, "Do we slam doors?" And she was like, "No." It's like, "Okay, you understand that we don't slam doors in the house. It's not the way we do things." And I could just talk to her very direct. [00:26:40]
The other daughter, if she slams the door, more than likely she's hiding from me. She's more like Eve in the garden. Like she can hear me coming and she's like going to hide behind a door. She's going to go down the hall. She's going to pretend she's busy with her dolls, like whatever she can to be like, "Oh, I did that wrong. Hide me. Cover me."
So I'm going to approach her in a more gentle way. I'm more than likely to get down on the floor with her and get down on her level. Look her in the eye, ask what's going on. Way before I go into like, what did you do wrong? I'm like, "What's going on? What was that about? Tell me what's happening. Here's your words."
I want to empower her in her words because she's more likely to go quiet and silent on me. So I want to empower her voice and let her know she's in a safe place for me to listen and create that sense of safety with her before I go in and start saying, "Okay, now that you understand you're safe, I want you to also understand you were wrong."
And in that you can be lovingly corrected. But correction is a loving act. And it's not saying that you're a bad girl. It's simply you made a wrong choice. And we want to create that distinction so that you understand that correction is helping you to be better. And that's all that my heart has for you is a desire for things to be better for you. [00:28:04]
So with her, it tends to be more compassionate and soft. But we still get to the same place where the other daughter, it can be quick. I can handle it. I can go direct and she gets it, she moves on and we're good.
Laura Dugger: So those are some differences with your kids. But now that your oldest is in their 20s and you've seen these stages repeatedly, are there any common findings between birth and launching that you've noticed in your children?
Susan Seay: I have found that, Oh, my goodness, these people, I love them. And I have to remember that just because I've said it to the first group, I've said it to the bigs, that doesn't mean the middles were paying attention or heard it. And then likewise, when I'm with the littles and I'm like, I know I've said this a thousand times. I go, "Okay, I get it. When I was saying that you weren't paying attention, you were too little. Like you were the little littles. Now you're old enough to have this instruction. [00:29:06]
Are there patterns? Absolutely. Do all of them want to test the boundaries? Yes. Do all of them need that sense that they're important uniquely, not just because they're part of the group? You bet.
Right now I'm in the season... I have this fresh pattern that happened just within the past 48 hours of having one that's transitioning into this high school/prepping for college phase. And I've been through this with three others. And now that I'm in this again, it brings up a lot of the familiar feelings of I don't know if I'm ready. This feels like too much.
How do I know what I want to be when I grow up? I don't even know what I want to do next week. And why should I have this thing figured out? And this feels like a lot of pressure for me to figure these things out. And what if I choose wrong? And how do I know what school I want to go to? Really I don't want to go to any school. I'm kind of done with school.
So like all this mixed bag of fear and overwhelm and anxiety as well as excitement about the future. But that excitement is so shrouded in doubt and insecurity and like scrambling for answers that they can't really soak in that excitement because they feel like adults are asking them questions they should know the answers to and they don't. [00:30:28]
So I'm kind of in that phase, that season again. I'll be gonna be calling the siblings really soon to say, okay, guys remember when you went through this and we talked with you and we really asked you some questions to help you figure out your next steps? Encourage your sister because she's in it now.
Laura Dugger: That's helpful to get them involved as well and get to speak truth into their younger siblings.
Susan Seay: So if you have anybody, if there's a mom listening who's got a child who is feeling that sense of, I don't know what's next for me, but I feel like everybody is expecting that I should know, I will share with you what I ask my kids that they find incredibly helpful.
And it's this. I remind them that if we are going to trust that our steps are ordered by God, and we could begin to accept that all of the people that are in our life that are closest to us are God-ordained, and they have a purpose. So who around you are you curious about? Are you curious about their job? You're curious about their background? You're curious about their life story?
Who around you do you find yourself going, I wonder what do they do all day? Or I wonder what they did in college or what does it mean to have a degree in physics? What is that about? Who is it that you're just curious about? [00:31:54] Whoever that is that they identify, go spend time with them and go talk with them.
That for my children has helped to kind of enlighten some of their inner curiosities that they hadn't fully tapped into and it's led to some next steps for them to kind of illuminate what direction they want to go.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. We're all about practical tips here, so that is a great one. As you look at both the similarities in yourself and your children and your differences with them, how has all of that led to your own progressive sanctification?
Susan Seay: Yeah, all of it has been, as I call it, the refiner's fire for me. I, pre-kids, would have said that I was patient and I was kind and generous, and all these things and so loving. And you catch me on a sleep-deprived, it's two o'clock, I haven't eaten, when is the last time I showered moment. [00:32:59] And I find myself griping, I find my forehead is like really furrowed and very just angry. I'm sharp and not so compassionate, not so patient.
And it's just been really a big growth for me to understand love in a new way. What does it mean to really love someone? What does it mean to love someone when they're acting unlovable right now? How do you keep showing up in the midst of a situation where you'd love to throw your hands up and give up? But instead God has called you to show up and give and serve and listen and console and correct even in the midst of this challenging situation.
So for me, motherhood has been the ultimate tool that God has used to refine me into more of the Christ-like character, to be more like Christ. But this process has been messy. It's not clear-cut, it's not put together in a nice little kit and we don't go step by step.
There are days where I feel like I'm spiritually and emotionally I take huge leaps forward. And then there are seasons where I feel like I'm just in a pit like I'm not doing well at all and all in between. But in the end, somehow, progress has been made. [00:34:28]
Somehow, God and His grace and His mercy brings me to a new understanding of Him and His relationship with me, a new understanding of His word, a new connection and depth to my love for my children and for other people that He's placed in our lives that I never had before motherhood.
Laura Dugger: That's an incredible journey.
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All of this has kind of led you into a role that you have now as a speaker and author and life coach. So how did you decide to pursue all of those roles in addition to your full plate at home?
Susan Seay: I would say this was a calling on my life and definitely not something that I pursued. Instead, I would say I was more of the refuser. I refused this whole idea. I was like, No, no, no, no. I have seven children. We homeschool. My plate is full. And I felt like I was trying to remind God of the life he gave me.
So I was like, "Hey, God, hey, remember, I'm married and I have these kids and I homeschool and life is full. I think you might have asked the wrong person to do this. I really don't think I'm the right person." My way of dealing with that, to do some pseudo obedience to the call, was to promote other people that I thought were amazing. And they were amazing.
I would be like, this woman, she's got a great story. And this one over here, she's a great speaker. And this one, she's an amazing writer. And I would just keep promoting other people and telling other people about them.
And I just found that more and more people were saying, "That's great, Susan. We're thankful for all these people that you've had as me, but we're asking for you to speak." And that the Lord was just really showing me that this was the pathway that He had for me. And I was very reluctant to say yes. [00:37:13]
I'm going to just be honest. I had a very deep conviction that I would not be speaking and traveling all over the country, encouraging people to have great families and neglecting my own. It was a personal conviction for me that that would never be our story. And since in my mind, I couldn't figure out how the two would go together, surely this just cannot be the right way for us to go. This cannot be the path.
But I'm grateful that I have a husband who is supportive. I don't know if that really encompasses it. He was beyond supportive. He was an incredible cheerleader for me to say yes to this call. He began to tell me story after story of times when he felt like this was the direction that I would ultimately go, and that he didn't say anything because he knew that I would be like, Yeah, no, dude, that can't be it.
Then I was surrounded by friends who equally were willing to call me out in a good way. They were willing to call me out and say, "Susan, I really believe that this is a gifting that God has given you and a unique perspective and voice that's needed. And we just want to encourage you to follow that with your whole heart, like follow what God is showing you." [00:38:30]
And then it was just my own repentance in my heart for feeling like I should have to figure this out myself. And because I couldn't figure it out, surely that meant that's not God's plan. And I got to repent. I had to repent of that and repent my doubt, repent my arrogance, my pride, my fears, and instead to surrender, once again, my life and my heart to Him. To say, Whatever doors you want to open for me to go and to share, to speak, I'm in. I'm all in. I say yes to you.
When I did that... I had that time, my husband and I were away on vacation and we were in a location where we couldn't be reached by phone. So when we got back and we turned our phones on and I was checking my email, I had three speaking invitations waiting in my inbox. And I had told no one that I was saying yes to that call.
So it was really a confirmation of the direction that the Lord was taking me. And it's continued to be so every step of the way. Because I am so committed to the family that I'm not out marketing myself and shaking hands and kissing babies is what I say about politicians, right? [00:39:44]
I really don't have the time to do that because I'm dedicated to my family, my marriage, and then caring for the needs of my own body. Girl has entered her 40s and the body is talking to me in many different ways and self-care is something that's very important to me.
So in the midst of that, somehow people keep finding my name, keep connecting to the message that I've shared in various resources like being here on your podcast. And from that, that's where the growth is coming, but it's not coming from any kind of self-promotion or some team that's behind me making this thing happen. If any team that I have, it's the Lord Almighty and all that He's doing.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing how you stepped out in faith, and that's what led you to obey, even if there were some fears. And you mentioned it kind of sounded like either I'm pouring into my family or I'm pouring into this ministry and I neglect it. [00:40:45]
Now that you've answered the Lord's call, do you find that that was true or false, that pursuing this ministry meant neglecting your family?
Susan Seay: I have definitely found that I made an error in really looking at it as it had to be one or the other. To make it worse, I didn't even fully say yes. And I was reminded of that late last fall when our family was going through some significant challenges.
My parents live across the street and my father was experiencing a lot of health challenges where he was in medical crises more than once, where I rushed over and found him in medical crises and had to call an ambulance and then load my mom up in the car and followed the ambulance to the hospital.
And then I had one of my children who was going through a very difficult time going through the process of experiencing the first relationship. And it wasn't a relationship that me or my husband really celebrated at all, not even really fully understood. [00:41:49] So there was a lot of friction there.
And in the midst of this, I had more speaking engagements than I'd ever had before and found myself having to have some incomplete conversations with people and, you know, decisions not being made, but needing to pack the bag and get on a flight and go.
And I would be in airports crying and going, this is exactly the thing I said I didn't want to happen. So I'm thinking, "This is about time for me to honor the commitments I've made and then it's time to end this." And the Lord brought to my memory how I said yes to Him.
And the way I said yes to this call to speaking is I said, "Yes, God, I will go as long as things are well with my family. But the second the family starts to fall apart, that's it. I'm done." And I made a commitment. A conditional yes. That's how I'll put it. I gave Him a conditional yes. And He wants our full yes. He wants our full and 100% all in yes. [00:42:48]
And so I got to repent again, girl. It really was like, when do I get to get to the end of myself is the question I started to ask myself. I got to repent again for that conditional yes. And in the midst of that, he began to show me the ways in which. Because I wasn't present, the way the kids matured and stepped up, the way my mom found support in her church community.
The family began to expand in ways and deepen the roots of connection in other ways that my presence would not have allowed those things to happen. The fact that I wasn't there, it created a new dynamic within our home where my kids are going to my husband before they're coming to me now. I'm like, "Hey, what?" To be honest, at first I was irritated by that. I was like, "Wait, you usually ask me."
But now I'm in a place where I can celebrate the fact that he feels needed, which is important for him. He feels like he has something to contribute and he has some unique experiences with the kids that don't involve me. And he gets to kind of do things the way he would want to and they get to enjoy him being fully engaged and caring for their needs. [00:44:10]
So the things that I thought were going to be a problem or cause hurt or harm or neglect in some way, God has shown me how he has stepped in. And He is the one who fills the gaps. And He's the one who answers the cries of the heart and the needs within our family. And sometimes He uses me, and sometimes He uses my husband, and sometimes He uses other people, but ultimately He's the source for everything we need.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for pointing us back to Him. That's incredible to hear your story. I think so many people are going to relate to that. As you've had this platform to speak to so many people, what are you most hearing from parents?
Susan Seay: There's so many lies that I think that we as women hear, and I think we as parents are hearing. There's so many expectations from people around us, from the culture around us. [00:45:11] And then there's so many expectations we have of ourselves.
And somewhere in the midst of that, we start trying to live to meet the expectations versus really getting still long enough to seek out how we are supposed to uniquely raise our families and how we're to operate within our homes. And how can we do that in a way that honors the Lord?
So we get lost. And in that lost feeling, we're experiencing more depression and anxiety than ever before. We're experiencing overwhelm, loneliness, frustration, even though we're in a society that has more ways to connect than ever. We've got more social media platforms and resources in order to build connection, yet somehow we're still lonely or more lonely than we've ever been, more disconnected than we've ever been.
And when you translate that individual experience of that into families where you have multiple people experiencing that same thing, it almost magnifies that sense of loneliness and disconnect and frustration and depression and anxiety. [00:46:22]
My desire, my passion is to become a voice of encouragement to the discouraged mom out there, to the discouraged woman who's trying her best, and to resource her right behind that encouragement with practical tools so that she can begin to feel more intentional and living like she's living the life of purpose that she always desired and dreamed of.
Laura Dugger: Well, I think you definitely do that well. Susan, this time has just been so enriching. If a listener does want to follow up with you online, where can they find you and your resources?
Susan Seay: Well, I hope they do. I hope that I've met some new friends here. My website is my name, Susanseay.com. And they're welcome to find me there. Also on socials, Facebook, and Instagram at SusanLC. And they can find me either way there. [00:47:27]
But I welcome them to come to my website, go to that front page of my website and enter their name and email address. And what I'd love to send them is a PDF self-evaluation form that has 12 Things Intentional Parents Do Differently. I think it's 12 Things Intentional Moms Do Differently is actually the title. And they can go through those 12 things, evaluate each one personally, and then from that place, use that as a starting place for how they want to be more intentional with their families.
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Well, we will make it as easy as possible and link to all of that in our show notes. Susan, I just have one more question for you. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so we would all love to know, what is your savvy sauce?
Susan Seay: Fabulous. That's a fun question. I would say that for me, I tend to be a person who loves a plan. I keep buying planners and hoping that my life would be more planned out. [00:48:33] And I can plan and strategize and I can become super serious about making a sandwich and serving lunch.
So one of the keys that I have adopted in my life as a goal. And that is every day, I want to laugh with every single person in my family. And if you have a family the size of mine, that means there's a lot of laughter going on. And sure, there's a lot of things I could become upset about in a day and I've done it.
And this is just a reminder to me of how important it is that sometimes we need to not be so serious. We need to lighten it up, laugh and enjoy the life we've been given.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is awesome. Can definitely implement that today. Truly, I have just enjoyed this time. Your enthusiasm is awesome and contagious and your wisdom just oozes out. So thanks for spending your time with us today.
Susan Seay: Absolutely. I've loved it. [00:49:32]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:50:37]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:51:39]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:52:37]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jul 01, 2019
Monday Jul 01, 2019
60. Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships with Pastor, Scott Wildey
**Transcription Below**
1 Thessalonians 5:11 (NIV) “Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.”
Scott Wildey, M.Div., is a husband to Linsey (17 yrs), and father to Hunter (11) and Piper (9). He is also an Associate Pastor at Flood Church in San Diego (16 yrs), overseeing the Groups and Marrieds ministries, and feels most alive encouraging others to be all God has designed them to be. Scott is certified in the The Myers–Briggs Type Indicator, trained in The Clifton StrengthsFinder, and dabbles in the Enneagram (as a 9). He also enjoys reading theology, writing, Premier League football, trivia, 80s nostalgia, board games, Harry Potter movies, classic sneakers, The Revisionist History and Savvy Sauce podcasts, the Bible Project, Coltrane & Davis jazz, lounging in his Walmart pool, coupons, and has never met a sauce he didn’t like (try the Zhoug!). Scott knows he has lots of gray hair and often fibs that it costs a lot of money to have it look that way (since he is told every other day how gray his hair is becoming).
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Scott Wildey is my guest today. He is a pastor in San Diego, and he has years of experience helping individuals and couples learn more about their personalities through the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory. With his storytelling and humor, he's going to unpack personality differences you may relate to in your family, marriage, and workplace.
Ultimately, he will share ways we can celebrate one another's differences for a greater outcome. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Scott. [00:01:21]
Scott Wildey: Thank you for having me. Looking forward to speaking with you today.
Laura Dugger: Can you just start us off by sharing a snapshot of your life?
Scott Wildey: I currently work in San Diego, California. I know that a lot of people are probably pitting me right now, but please do not pity that. I work for a church called Flood Church. We've existed for about 18 years. I've been working here, in full-time ministry, for over 15 years now. Before that, I was a graphic designer.
I'm married to an amazing woman for nearly 17 years. Her name is Linsey, and she is a spiritual director. She meets with people and supports them and helps them to discern God's movement in their life. It's really fun to be married to her.
We have two kids, an 11-year-old son who loves soccer and school and friends. Then we have an almost 10-year-old daughter. My son is Hunter, and my daughter is Piper. She's great as well. I just love being a dad and a husband and a pastor. [00:02:24]
Laura Dugger: Well, you definitely have a darling family. Back when we lived in San Diego, my husband Mark and I served in one of your ministries that was called Two Become One. For anyone listening who isn't local to the San Diego area, it was a premarital counseling resource for couples.
Scott, you were the guru to speak on the Myers-Briggs Personality Profile. I just remember it was so beneficial to the couples to learn more about themselves and about one another. Today, we're just going to focus on that personality profile. Can you first just give us an overview of what the Myers-Briggs Personality Test is, and then share why you think it's beneficial for couples to know their type?
Scott Wildey: Sure. The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator has been around for quite a long time. I first discovered it in 2001. I went to a leadership conference through our church, and one of the presenters had us do that assessment just so we can learn more about ourselves and the people that we're working with. [00:03:25] I was so enamored by it and wanted to learn about it that I became a certified instructor in 2003 and have been really using it ever since.
Essentially, it's based on a personality type theory of Carl Jung. What he did is he observed that normal, healthy people have innate differences, innate differences in how they think and view the world. He published a book on personality type.
About that same time, there was a mother-daughter team in the United States that were having some similar thoughts about personality. They got a hold of Jung's book, and they basically created an assessment of his theory and their own observations. What's neat about that is this was all happening about the time of World War II.
One of their motivations was that people could develop a better fit for what they were doing. They saw a lot of wasted potential during that time. Then they also wanted to have people understand themselves and other people so they could find a creative use of differences. Really motivation of peace in a time of war is a pretty amazing origin story. [00:04:44]
Over the next 30 years, they developed this instrument. In 1975, it was the first time it was made available. It's now in, I think, about 110 countries or so in 30 different languages. It's research and science-based, which is great, and that's important.
The other thing, what I love about it, is they wanted to put a psychological assessment into the hands of everyday people. Because at that time, only affluent people could afford to go to a psychologist and do an assessment like that. That's kind of the history behind it, and millions of people use it every day.
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. I just learned quite a bit right there in the start. If somebody does want to go find this test and take it so that they can identify their profile, where would you direct them?
Scott Wildey: One thing about this particular instrument is, especially since I was certified, they really believe in the science behind it. Unfortunately, that means that the tried-and-true instruments, one has to pay for. The place that I'd recommend, and I'll give you this link, is themyersbriggs.com. It's an organization that has the rights to the tried-and-true research instrument. [00:06:00]
That's the place that we send couples that go through our Two Become One course that you mentioned. That's probably where I would send people. However, if someone wants to Google to take it, they can, but it wouldn't be as accurate.
Laura Dugger: That's helpful. We will definitely link to that in the show notes so they can go take the paid version if they're interested. I think it would be great for our listeners to get a snapshot about this instrument. Do you mind just going through all of the letters?
Scott Wildey: Definitely. One thing that's important to know is that this is a great model, and it's a great tool. One of my favorite quotes I've learned along the way is by a statistician named George Box. He said that all models are wrong, but some are useful. This is a self-validating instrument. Even if your listeners want to see if they can self-evaluate themselves, that's usually the best way that we can begin to know our personality. [00:06:59]
The other thing I think it's important to know before I introduce some of the letters is just to remind us that every individual is unique. Even though we do have some shared human attitudes and brain functions, we're all unique. Even though someone would have four letters and there are 16 possible types, we're all unique.
None of the letters are value-based. What that means is that each letter is good. It would be incorrect for me to say, for example, Laura, that I'm more extroverted than you. The instrument doesn't measure a value. It actually is a category instrument, or the best way to put it is it's a sorting instrument. It's merely saying that I have a preference for extroversion.
Lastly, I would say that all of us have each of these letters. It's more of what is my dominant preference. Even though I have a dominant preference for extroversion personally, I also need times of introversion, and that's true for all of us. [00:07:59]
The first actually dichotomy is what they're called… is extroversion and introversion. This has to do with where we draw our energy from. People that prefer extroversion they're energized by the outer world, people, places, and things. They tend to live it and then understand it. If you can think of a metaphor of a bank, people that prefer extroversion, they're energy collectors.
So if someone that prefers extroversion, maybe they haven't been around people for a long time, their bank might be empty. So every interaction they have with people or the outside world, it's like an energy deposit into their bank.
People that prefer extroversion also tend to be initiators, and they like to process via talking. So for their brain to process, generally their mouth is moving. It's kind of funny, but I've seen that to be true in myself. Even though they do receive energy by the outside world, again, they need alone time, they need introverted time, but typically they need less time to recoup than someone that prefers extroversion. [00:09:12]
Then lastly, about extroverts, they're about 50% of the population. Being a pastor, I like to think of, well, how might someone that prefers extroversion prefer spiritual practices? I've discovered that I enjoy spiritual practices in community or with other people. Even if it's a time of silence, I enjoy being with other people, and it really helps my spiritual walk. So I've discovered a lot of that is because I prefer extroversion.
Now the other side of that dichotomy is introversion. Just like you'd expect, these are opposites. So a person that prefers introversion is energized by the inner world of ideas, thoughts, and concepts. Typically they have to understand it and then live it. They like to think it through before they speak or maybe present.
Going back to that metaphor of the bank, they tend to be energy spenders. So their bank might be full if they've had a lot of alone time. Then every interaction with the outside world, including people, tends to be a withdrawal from their energy bank. [00:10:15]
A lot of times in social settings they're receivers instead of initiators, like people that prefer extroversion. For their brain to process, a lot of times it means the mouth has to be closed. They generally, again, need more time to recoup, especially after social interactions.
In terms of spiritual practices, a lot of people that prefer introversion I know, they actually are drawn towards solitude and silence as a way of recouping. It could be journaling or spending time alone in nature, that sort of thing. So even though we all might like that, most of my friends that prefer introversion, that's something that they really are drawn to in their preference.
Something that's interesting about introverts and extroverts when we think of how we interact and work together, there's going to be a natural tension there, of course. A lot of times extroverts and introverts they tend to have conflict over when to talk about things or when to have an argument.
For example, when my wife prefers introversion, whenever we have to talk about something important, I'm used to processing verbally so I want to talk about it right then and there, but a lot of times she needs some time to process and formulate her opinions on things. And that could create an additional conflict, which we've learned to kind of laugh at now, but in the beginning, it wasn't quite as fun as you can imagine. [00:11:39]
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to have personal examples to bring it to life. Just to summarize so far, the letters would be either E if you prefer extroversion or I if you prefer introversion.
Scott Wildey: Yes, that is correct.
Laura Dugger: Okay. You want to lead us into the next dichotomy?
Scott Wildey: Yes. Yes. The next dichotomy is sensing and intuition. The letter is S for sensing. And for intuition, the letter is N because the I has been already used for introversion. So people that prefer sensing... Now, these are actually the first brain functions that Carl Jung gave a theory about.
So the brain is either doing two things when it's conscious. It's either taking in information or it's coming to conclusions. And so this dichotomy of the sensing and intuition is the part of the brain that is taking in information. Or another way to say it is what am I paying attention to? And people have different preferences. [00:12:40]
It would be like if I were to ask you to fold your hands or to clasp your hands. And if you look down at your hands, you'll find that one of your thumbs is above the other thumb. Now, if I ask you to spread your hands apart again and then bring them back together, but using the opposite thumb on top, my guess is it feels kind of awkward and strange.
So for me, when I naturally do that, my left thumb is above my right thumb and that feels normal and natural. Whereas when I put my opposite thumb on top, it feels very unnatural. It'd be my right thumb on top. Well, the interesting thing about that is I've probably been clasping my hands a million times over the past 46 years. I probably did it when I was one or two years old by observing somebody else. And I did it the same way every single time without even thinking about it.
That's a great analogy for how our brains naturally prefer one of these functions over the other one. So it doesn't mean that people do it the opposite than I do are wrong. It just means that our brain has a preference. [00:13:41]
So people that prefer sensing, they prefer to take in information via specifics, concrete data. The main question that their brain is answering is what is it? What is it? They tend to be in the moment, realistic and practical. They tend to make decisions by experience and known facts first. And oftentimes they will think about things very linearly.
Another thing that's interesting about this particular dichotomy is that people that prefer sensing make up about 75% of the population, according to the millions of people who've taken the instrument. They have data to support that.
And then according to a spiritual practice, there's a lot of people that prefer sensing. Most likely they're actually going to prefer to use their five senses when they experience God, when they worship God, when they're with other people.
The other side of that dichotomy are people that prefer intuition. They tend to start with the big picture or to start with the vision. [00:14:44] The question that their mind is asking is what does it mean? What does it mean? They tend to look for possibilities first. They're often imagination based and they're okay going from leaps and bounds of ideas, often without segues.
Many of us who prefer intuition, we rely on hunches. And just like the math states, we're about 25 percent of the population. And a lot of times our spiritual practices might be centered around theology and concepts and symbols as that's kind of where our mind naturally goes.
In terms of working with people, whether it's a spouse, a friend, a family member, a co-worker, a lot of times conflict in this dichotomy with sensing and intuitives has to do with the content of the argument.
So a great example of this would be in anybody's workplace. Most likely they have a team meeting and maybe a brainstorming session. Well, intuitives like to start with the big picture first, the grandiose idea, whereas people that prefer sensing, they like to start with the details.
So oftentimes when a big picture is presented, someone on the team that prefers sensing will usually say pretty quickly, well, how are we going to do that? And then a person that prefers intuition, oftentimes that can be frustrating for them because they're trying to brainstorm. [00:15:59]
So if people don't understand how the others are wired and how they naturally think, then that can be an unnecessary source of conflict. When hopefully if people can gain an understanding about themselves and everyone else in the room, that they can actually fulfill the goal of this instrument is to create a constructive use of the differences.
Because we all know that both of those are really important. It's really important to know the details of a project and how is it going to get done. But it's also important to dream and have vision and think outside the box. So we're all important and all is needed.
Laura Dugger: That is really interesting. I've never heard the percentages before. Are any of the other dichotomies favoring one or the other as strongly as the S and the N?
Scott Wildey: Yes. That's a great question, by the way. So introverted and extroverted is about 50-50. The interesting note about those percentages is even in other countries that we might assume might either be more introverted or more extroverted are still around 50-50. [00:17:00] Judging and perceiving is also about 50-50.
But the one that has a little bit of diversity is the thinking and feeling dichotomy. And that's actually the next dichotomy that we're coming to. But that one has a gender difference. And people that prefer thinking... men tend to be 60% preference of thinking and 40% preference of feeling. Whereas women tend to be about 70% to 75% feeling and 25% to 30% thinking. So that's the only one that has this gender difference according to the people that take the instrument.
And I think the question that that leads me to and that should lead all of us to is what happens if you are a gender that's in the minority of that type preference? So another way of asking that is if I'm a man and I am that prefers feeling, what kind of assumptions and judgments might other people make about me? [00:18:01] Or better yet, if you're a woman that prefers thinking in the minority of other women, what kind of assumptions and judgments might other people make about you? And so it's incumbent on all of us then to go beyond those stereotypes and again, to learn this constructive use of differences.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Just taking all of this in. So tell us about the thinking and feeling.
Scott Wildey: This is the next brain function. So the first brain function was taking in or receiving information. And this brain function is actually coming to conclusions based on that information. So in other words, I based my decisions on (and then fill in the blank).
A person that prefers thinking, they tend to base their decisions on logical implications. Now, keep in mind that these words are specific words and meanings to the Myers-Briggs. So if I prefer thinking, it doesn't mean that I don't feel. I'm not a cyborg or something. And then if I prefer feeling, it doesn't mean I don't know how to think. Maybe more constructive words for us today might be objective and subjective.
So a person that prefers thinking, they base their decisions more objectively a lot of times on impersonal analysis or logic. They tend to be task-focused, not a lot of fluff, and how they like to make decisions. And they also show an intention to care by fixing. [00:19:23] And fairness to them is usually everyone is treated the same.
In terms of spiritual practices, a lot of people that prefer thinking, they might prefer studying and studying ideas and theology. And knowing about God is often a starting place or the intellectual pathway for people that prefer thinking.
On the opposite side of the dichotomy, people that prefer feeling, just like it says, they typically base decisions based on personal values or subjectivity and the impact that decisions are going to make on people. They also tend to show care by encouraging. And to them, fairness is the context, and that people would be treated uniquely according to that particular situation that they're in. They're very relational-focused and spirituality for them or spiritual practices for them might include lots of expression, experiences, and people.
The conflict that these preferences tend to have with each other is over... is the conflict we're having about the relationship or the issue. In other words, how much are emotions playing in this decision? And since fairness and intentions are coming from these opposite places, then without understanding, there is a lot of conflict in this particular era with most people. [00:20:45]
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. And if you said there's such a difference between the genders, typically. I can see where that would bring up a lot of marital issues.
Scott Wildey: Yes, indeed. Indeed.
Laura Dugger: Do you mind leading us into the final dichotomy?
Scott Wildey: Yes. The final dichotomy is how our brains like to be organized in the outer world. Or another way to say it is my preferred lifestyle is. And people that prefer judging and people that prefer perceiving, that's the dichotomy on this one.
But again, these words are a little tricky. They mean something in the Myers-Briggs type indicator that might mean something different in the outer world. So if someone prefers judging, it's not meaning moral judgments or that they're a jerk or something. It just has to do with their attitude towards the outer world.
So someone that prefers judging, they actually like closure quicker. There's a joy in closure for them. They typically plan ahead and then they follow that plan in a pretty close regimen. They like lists and checkboxes. Change for them takes more energy, whereas deadlines are very helpful to their organization and their structure. [00:21:54]
People that prefer judging also tend to be very decisive and systematic. And for them, it's about the destination. That's a really big value for them. Then in terms of spiritual practices, people that for judging, they often like a very structured time. So maybe a certain kind of liturgy would be very supportive for them.
People that prefer perceiving are people that prefer the joy of gathering information and the joy of processing. So they tend to like to keep their options open. Change is expected for them, if not thrived upon. And people that prefer perceiving want open flexibility and their tentative at making decisions. And for them, the big value is it's about the journey. And oftentimes, spiritual practices for them might be times of spontaneity where there's an open schedule, where they can interact with God in different ways without being overly controlled.
In terms of working with one another, with our friends, family, workplaces, people that prefer judging and perceiving tend to have conflict over time. Time is a really big issue and a really big difference in how people that prefer judging and people that prefer perceiving perceive time. [00:23:07]
An example of this, if you were to ask a person that prefers judging if they need to get their work finished before they play, almost always they will say, Yes, I have to finish my work before I can play. Well, if you ask that very same question to someone that prefers perceiving, they will often not totally understand the question. They might say, well, my work kind of is play or I take breaks and it helps my work. And oftentimes that can frustrate people that prefer judging, I found, when really it's just a different way of living one's life that isn't wrong or bad, it's just different.
Laura Dugger: That is so interesting to hear that breakdown. I'm so curious, do people's letters change throughout seasons or their life or are they finding that the four letters that you identify with that will be true of your whole lifespan?
Scott Wildey: Yes, it's a both and. That's kind of the way I've looked at it. So the theory states actually that one's type is one's type. [00:24:08] So one's brain doesn't change in terms of their type. Whatever type that you have, that is your lifetime preference. And that makes sense in many ways because we all are each of the letters. But each of us has a dominant preference.
So I think a lot of people get confused when they feel like they have to choose just one of the letters because their life experience is both of the letters in each of the dichotomies. I think when people understand that, well, yes, we all experience both of these letters, but your brain does choose because as a preference, then I think people feel more comfortable owning kind of how their brain is already functioning.
But something else that's interesting about this is there's different sub-theories to this theory. And the first theory, which we don't have probably a lot of time to go into today, but it has to do with type development. And basically what that means is that while one's brain is forming up to about the age of 25 is that each of their letters is kind of going out for a trial.
For people that are under 25, that could be confusing if their personality type has been developing. Or just as important, it could be confusing to their parents who think they understand what their type is, but maybe their children have been experiencing different attitudes or different preferences over that time. [00:25:28]
Then the other kind of sub theory has to do with the second half of life. Those of us who are in our middle ages kind of understand that there's a segment of life where your preferences change a little bit. Well, that theory basically says that whatever our least preferred functions are, there's a time of life when we want to redevelop those or we want to develop those, especially things that have been repressed or have felt most childlike during the first half of our life.
So it doesn't necessarily say that our preference changes. It's just merely saying that our comfortability with our least preferred types letters, we're more apt to try on without as much resistance. Does that make sense?
Laura Dugger: I think it does. And let me share a personal example and see if this fits in the second theory that you're talking about.
Scott Wildey: Sure.
Laura Dugger: Before I was a mom, I identified and preferred P, perceiving, instead of J, judging. [00:26:29] And that was always how I lived my life. But now as a mom, I've noticed the J seems really beneficial. And so I'm trying to grow in that. And would almost identify more with that letter during this season or just in the functions at home with the kids. So would that fit into the second theory?
Scott Wildey: Yeah, I think that would go into the second theory. I'm glad you share that story because it brings up an important point that Carl Jung made. He said the goal of understanding and awareness of yourself is actually that you can toggle back and forth to your least preferred preferences with more awareness and then usability.
So it doesn't mean that you're going to switch your dominant preference, per se. But it does mean that over time, with more understanding and more practice, that you'll be able to toggle back and forth with less resistance. So that could be what's happening with you as well. [00:27:30]
Laura Dugger: Thank you. Hopefully, that's helpful to somebody else who's listening and processing for themselves right now. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Let's just move on towards couples. Do you often see couples who are marrying someone similar to them or someone who is opposite?
Scott Wildey: I mostly see couples who marry their opposite or at least more opposite than they are. There's definitely a range. I think more people marry a person that's different than them than people that are the same.
Laura Dugger: And do you have any savvy tips to share with both types of couples, the ones that marry someone similar to them and someone opposite? [00:29:36]
Scott Wildey: Yeah. There's a great book I'd recommend for couples. The book is called Just Your Type: Create the Relationship You've Always Wanted Using the Secrets of Personality Type by Paul D. Tieger and Barbara Barron Tieger. It's just a fantastic book. I can't recommend it enough.
One of the points they make in this book is that if you marry someone that has a very similar personality type as you do, then there's a good chance that you will avoid a lot of personality conflict that the rest of us have to go through. So that in many ways is a blessing.
On the other hand, though, if you marry someone that's different than you, you will probably have more conflicts in the beginning, and you'll have to put more energy and work in working out that particular sets of conflicts. But then you're more prepared really to understand and work with other people in the world.
So it is a trade-off, but it is true that if you marry someone similar or a couple of someone similar, that you will probably have less at least personality conflict than someone who marries somebody different. [00:30:41]
Laura Dugger: I like that because it's positive, no matter what type of person you marry.
Scott Wildey: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: I'm sure that people are curious, what are both your type and your wife Linsey's type?
Scott Wildey: Yes, my type is an ENFJ. However, I'm going to give a qualifier. And the reason why I'm going to give a qualifier, this would have to be a whole different podcast. There's actually a step two of the Myers-Briggs type indicator. Most people take the step one, which I would recommend. That's a great place to start out. But the step two has more questions and it also measures one's facets of their particular letters.
The best analogy I've heard of is, let's say that each of us can identify with a particular political party, Democrat, Republican, independent. Well, each of those parties is going to have a platform of values and ideals.
So our personality type is very similar. So let's say that I'm an extrovert. I'm going to have certain things in extrovert or characteristics or facets.
And most of those I'm going to prefer. But almost all of us have what's called an out of preference in those particular facets. And so I have an out of preference. Even though I prefer judging, I have an out of preference for being pressure-prompted.
So being pressure prompted is a characteristic that most people that prefer perceiving share. [00:32:04] But I, because we're all made unique, I am very pressure-prompted. So I call myself an ENF pressure prompted J. And I don't want to confuse people too much, but it's also true. So that's how people experience me.
Then my wife is an ISFJ. We both have the F in common and we also both have the J in common, but it is savvy and it is spicy. And the reason being is because since I'm a pressure-prompted J, our J's will look different.
And really, if you are with someone that has the exact same letters that you are compared to other types, you'll experience so much of the same ways that your brain functions in the world. However, if you're just comparing yourself to each other, you'll see a vast ocean of difference. And that's the beauty of this whole thing.
So even though we're both F's, because I'm a man and she's a woman, there's differences there. And even though we're both J's, because I'm a pressure-prone J, we experience each other differently.
Laura Dugger: So it seems like we could just unpack this for so long, but maybe we could boil it down. Is there one area where you and Linsey have mastered conflict resolution as it relates to your letters? [00:33:18]
Scott Wildey: Yes, there is one area and that has to do with the S and N dichotomy, which is the sensing and intuition dichotomy. So my wife prefers sensing. She's very detailed, data-driven, concrete, and I prefer intuition. So I like to start with the big picture.
Even after working with this instrument for 17 years, when I get a three-paged spreadsheet full of data information, my instant response is panic and it overwhelms me. Thankfully, she understands this and has a lot of grace for me.
So one thing that we've done is we both had to, in a sense, meet in the middle. She likes to have family meetings because it really helps us, not only our schedule, but our goals and different things that need to happen to run our household.
Unfortunately, I tend to resist family meetings, not because I don't want to spend time with my wife or not because I don't think that the things we're talking about are very important, but really it's because I know they're going to involve a lot of details. [00:34:26]
And so one thing that we've learned how to do is she will give me a lot of lead time. And she'll probably have to mention it about three or four times, but she'll start off in saying, "Hey, we haven't had a family meeting in a while. When do you think it would be a good time to do it?" That's a great way to get me warmed up to the idea versus her just bringing a spreadsheet on me, which hasn't worked out too well.
Then usually, and I'm still growing in this area, but usually she'll have to mention it one more time and then I'll give her a date and a time and we'll meet. And she'll only give me little chunks at a time, which is really helpful.
Then she'll assure me at the end of it, Hey, I'm going to take this and you're going to take this and this is how this is going to get done. And that really helps me.
Then usually she asks me questions about what I value, what I'm wanting, where do I think we're going? You know, questions that will tap into “me” need and my need for the bigger picture. So then, in a sense, we both win.
Laura Dugger: That's always helpful to hear stories. So thanks for sharing that. [00:35:27] Let's just give a few examples for the couples who have married somebody that's opposite of them or at least opposite in some of these dichotomies.
Scott Wildey: Yeah, definitely. I think for those of us who have married pretty opposite types of people, one thing that I would mention that undergirds all of this is how important respect is.
The root of respect is for any one of us to reconsider or to be open really to another perspective. And it doesn't mean that we have to change our mind or anything like that, but it does mean that we're going to love people by listening and even consider that, oh, this might be something I'm missing.
I know that that has really served me a lot over the years. I didn't start off my marriage, really exercising that posture. And so thankfully I've learned a lot and that has really helped us.
Then another thing I would encourage people, especially if they're different, but really any couple, is to look each other in the eye and tell one another this statement: I cannot change you. And then if you're really open for extra credit, the next statement that you can say to each other and look them in the eye is: I will not change you or I should not change you. [00:36:41]
That's just important to note. Jung said in this theory that these are natural, innate, inborn differences. They're not wrong. So it's not wrong that someone thinks and perceives and comes to conclusions differently than we do. In a sense, it would hurt our dignity if we do try to change people.
That's kind of how I would start off. But in terms of some examples, I've noticed that couples, in terms of the introvert and extroversion dichotomy, if they are different, that a lot of times they have conflict about their social or their family calendar.
One example is, since my wife and I are both really active in our church community here in San Diego, we like to have small groups in our home. I, at one time asked my wife, well, how often during the week do you want to have people over, whether it's another couple, whether it's someone we're mentoring, or whether it's we're having a small group. And I was expecting her to say, Oh, maybe two times, maybe three times. And she basically said, once a week. [00:37:42] Then if one week a month, we could just have totally off.
I was blown away by that. Now, I shouldn't have been surprised by that, because my response to her is, I'm actually okay four times a week having people over. And she was equally shocked. So we've had to come together and respect each other's desires, wishes, and decide on what will work for both of us and for our family. But I've noticed that a lot of couples have conflict in terms of their scheduling and their calendar.
Laura Dugger: That was a great example. Do you have any other tips for the dichotomy of S and N?
Scott Wildey: Yeah. For the S and the N, a lot of times, this is really where couples get into problems with communication. So like I mentioned before, people that prefer sensing, the details are really important to them. And their mind naturally thinks that way. So not having details, in other words, feels unsupportive, and a lot of times, can induce a kind of fear, just not knowing what's coming next. [00:38:44]
Whereas people that prefer intuition, like I shared a story about me, details too soon or too quick can feel overwhelming. And so we've definitely had issues trying to talk to each other. Even as something as simple as about how our day went.
I remember one time a few years ago, coming home, and we hadn't talked the entire day. And I'm trying to make a connection, and I simply asked my wife, who prefers sensing, how was your day? And she looked at me almost with a puzzled look in her eye, if not frustration. And she said, "Well, what do you mean, how was my day?" And I said, "How was your day?" Again, I repeated the same phrase.
And she looked at me again, and she said, "Well, what part of my day are you talking about?" Because she tends to think very linearly. And I was thinking big picture. And I said, "Well, I'm talking about the how was your day part of how was your day?" And it turned into a little spat when it didn't need to.
Now I can kind of see the perspective. When I ask her, how was your day? She's thinking of her day in about 20 different increments. And there's 20 different answers to that question. So that question to her doesn't make any sense. [00:39:54]
Where to me is a I just want a big picture, just give me a general umbrella of how the day was, and then we can start to double-click on what that means. And so that's a funny story now that we can laugh at. But at the time, it almost turned into a serious fight.
Laura Dugger: I can see where the communication would get jumbled there.
Thanks so much to KP for me who left a five-star rating and reviewed on iTunes with this quote. "I absolutely love the intro episode and hearing the personal stories of The Savvy Sauce team. The obvious smiles behind the voices brought a smile to my own face while I listened. Can't wait to listen to every episode. I'm fairly new to the world of podcasts, Savvy Sauce is an awesome place to start." Thank you so much for taking the time to write that.
This grassroots approach is the best way to get The Savvy Sauce podcast in front of more people so that we can continue to get amazing guests on the show and receive sponsors who make the shows financially possible to produce. Thanks for your contribution.
And go ahead, take it away with the thinking and feeling. [00:40:56]
Scott Wildey: Yeah. So the thinking and feeling dichotomy. This one also has a lot to do with communication that couples have. And usually, this is the one where people feel the most misunderstood. Because if I come into a conversation or decision-making process, my brain naturally thinks of fairness as everyone is treated the same. And the person next to me is coming into this conversation feeling that, hey, what's fair is what is unique to this particular context. Then right from the start, it's going to create fireworks.
So I have found that it's really incumbent on this particular dichotomy to approach any kind of conversation or decision-making with a listening-based posture. And I know that anyone who has been to counseling sessions most likely has gone through some kind of listening assessment or some kind of practice where they will actually work on listening and not necessarily sharing their point of view. And so that'd be my recommendation for people that might be opposite on the FT dichotomy. [00:41:58]
Start off with this idea of seeking to understand, and hopefully, if you're in a loving relationship, the other person will have that same posture, and they will try to understand your point of view. Another way of saying this is to view this dichotomy as you're kind of coming back to home base as focusing on the relationship and not being right.
And that's really hard for a lot of us to do but that's the only way that I've seen couples can work through this or really people can work through this is to be curious, to validate the other person's perspective. And validating does not mean that you have to agree with the other person. It simply means, hey, as I've stepped in your shoes, I can see where you're coming from and it's understandable.
When people feel understood, like you can repeat or understand their position as well as they do, then being right actually takes on less of a value for them.
Laura Dugger: I think that's great. It's such a practical application. And if somebody just wants to Google speaker-listener technique, they may come up with some more step-by-steps for the process of that. [00:43:05]
Scott Wildey: That's a great tool. It's one of my favorite tools.
Laura Dugger: And there's one more to cover for opposites. Will you tell us about the judging and perceiving?
Scott Wildey: Yeah. So this one has everything to do with time. I'm sure there's other things that people have conflict over this one, but 99.9% of this one, whether it's a couple, whether it's a family member, parents, kids, especially in the workplace, it has everything to do with time.
So I think the thing here is not to assume and not to judge. And again, to come towards the middle, whatever your view of timing. That's really hard to do.
So what I tend to ask people is when they think about the goals and the tasks and the timelines and deadlines they have is, one, did you work together on coming up with that particular deadline or timeline? If the answer is no, then I would say, well, maybe it would be worth coming up with whatever goal and deadline you have together and then you can work through how to accomplish that goal.
Because most people that perceiving, if they agreed upon the deadline, they were going to work at coming up with whatever their contribution is vastly differently than a person that prefers judging. [00:44:15] However, they're going to finish on time and they're going to get their job done. Whereas most people that prefer judging, because it's so different to how they prefer their world, it's very hard for them to see that.
I will say of all the dichotomies, this one is a little lopsided. And this book, Gesture Type, that I mentioned earlier, it has a few studies that are listed. And one of them is how do people that prefer judging and how do people that prefer perceiving, how do they relate to one another?
And it turns out that 46% of perceivers feel controlled by their judging counterparts. And that's by far the biggest percentage. So control is a big issue here.
And so if you prefer judging, how can you actually collaborate and maybe have a little more acceptance with people that prefer perceiving? And then if you prefer perceiving, how can you work more within the confines of our counterparts that prefer judging?
Then I would just say in terms of whether you get your work done first and then can play or you can play anytime, just enjoy that in the other person. That's a great example of a constructive use of differences. [00:45:24]
So I think my wife, Linsey, since I'm a pressure prompted J, she loves my spontaneity. She loves that five minutes before we do something, I'll mention to her, "Hey, I think it'd be fun for us to do such and such activity with our kids." She really appreciates that now.
Then I've come to appreciate how much I need and value and desire her structure for our family. So it has been a constructive use of differences. And so I know it's possible.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any final encouragement that you want to leave with couples in hopes of them pursuing a more satisfying marital relationship today?
Scott Wildey: Yes, definitely. Another thing that I learned a few years ago is what many psychologists or sociologists call the fundamental attribution error. Basically, the layman's understanding of that, the way that I understand it, is that I judge people for behaviors that when I do myself, I give myself grace for.
For example, the easiest example I could think of is if someone's late to work, not me, I will usually judge them in my mind. I'll label them as irresponsible, or they don't have consideration for the other people they work with. [00:46:38] But sometimes I'm late. And when I'm late, it's because of traffic or some other reasons.
So that's the best example that I can think of, of the normal ways in which we assume and judge other people that through a little work, we can actually find that it's normal for all of us to make mistakes, and these natural inborn tendencies that we have, they're not good or bad. They're just who we are.
Laura Dugger: I think when we do assume the best then of the other person, some amazing things happen.
Scott Wildey: Yes. And it is incumbent on us to think the best of other people. It takes work. Unfortunately, at least for me, I'll speak myself, it doesn't happen naturally. But grace is from God. That's the great thing about this is we're actually learning to love as God loves.
A part of that same idea is that instinctively, a lot of us, when someone does something that's different, and we might judge them internally, especially when we're talking about couples, the first question that we will often ask is, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Now, some of us are just asking that on the inside. [00:47:46] But I've been in enough arguments, even with my spouse, where I've said that externally as well. What's wrong with you? Why do you think this way? Why do you do that?
The best thing I could say is, if you reverse that question, and not so much what's wrong with you, or even what's wrong with me, but why do I feel this way, why is this bothering me so much, why do I have big feelings about this, and why isn't it okay, that my partner can't function in this way? Like, what is the biggest problem that's happening right now? And try to focus more on the way that I'm feeling and interacting, and maybe there's something behind why I'm so triggered.
Laura Dugger: If listeners want to connect with you after hearing this conversation, Scott, where could they find you?
Scott Wildey: Our website at our church is diveintoflood.com. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of social media. That's something I kind of took a fast from a few years ago, but the fast turned out to be a lifestyle choice. So I'm not really on social media. I'm hoping at some point to start a blog but it is yet to be started. [00:48:50]
Laura Dugger: Well, they can definitely head there. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. I just want to close our time with the one question that I like to ask every guest. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so Scott, we would love to know, what is your savvy sauce?
Scott Wildey: My savvy sauce is literally a sauce. That is not a joke. That's a pun intended. So Trader Joe's sells a sauce called Zhoug Sauce. It may be pronounced differently. I'm sorry if I offended the creators of it. It's spelled Z-H-O-U-G. And I love sauces. That's why I love Chick-fil-A.
But most sauces add a high-calorie intake, right? So I'm middle-aged. I'm trying watch my calories. Well, the Zhoug Sauce, it tastes unbelievable. You can put it on anything. And it's cilantro-based with some spices, even though it doesn't taste that much like cilantro to me. So that's my savvy sauce. [00:49:51]
Then my only addition would be, if you haven't signed up for free food and goodies on your birthday, you're missing out. I ate so many free meals around my birthday this year, and it was fantastic. It just feels like everyone is celebrating with you by giving you free food.
Laura Dugger: That is amazing. I think that's the most creative-savvy sauce we've ever had on the podcast.
Scott Wildey: Literal sauce. It's literal sauce.
Laura Dugger: Well done. But really, Scott, you were just such a great storyteller and communicator, and you really brought this personality profile to life. So thank you for being generous with your time and sharing your expertise with all of us today.
Scott Wildey: Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:50:54]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:51:56]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:52:56]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jun 24, 2019
Monday Jun 24, 2019
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
59. Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 127:3 “Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward.”
Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
God’s Design For Sex Series by Stan and Brenna Jones
Age of Opportunity by Paul David Tripp
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today we have a returning guest, Dr. Jennifer Konzen. I want you to be aware of adult content being discussed today as we talk about having mature conversations with our children. Please use discernment if you have little ears present.
Dr. Konzen has a very impressive bio because she is a certified sex therapist, award-winning researcher, international speaker, adjunct professor, author, wife to Tim, and a mother to their four grown children.
Today we are focusing on parenting as Dr. Konzen shares creative ways we can connect with our kids. She also describes how we can talk about sex and purity with our children. And she gives lots of encouragement to parents. I'm thrilled to get to welcome her back to The Savvy Sauce.
Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode. [00:01:23]
Welcome back, Dr. Konzen. Thanks for joining us again.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, I'm glad to be here.
Laura Dugger: You have always had an awesome relationship with your husband and your four kids. Could you just share your wisdom?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I don't know that I would call it wisdom as much as the hard knocks of learning. I was just sharing with somebody the other day about how even through the ups and downs of our marriage, I think one of our strengths has always been between my husband and I that we really have a strong mutual respect for one another.
I like my husband and he likes me. And so it's funny how vitally important the liking of one another and the respect for one another is.
I love and adore my children, but even in the midst of all the ages that my children have been, we have always majorly prioritized our relationship. Even when they were little, you know, newly born, we were making sure we would go out and just have time with us. [00:02:26]
Through all the years, we've just made sure that in the midst of parenting, because raising four of them has been full and busy, we've just made sure to work on us and keep us the priority.
Like every couple, there's ups and downs in your marriage. And honestly, I tell you, the fact that my husband loves God is the single best thing about our marriage. So keeping our hearts close to God is vital so that even when you do blow it, because wives, husbands, we all blow it, how to recover from blowing it is huge.
So we all have our foibles and our mistakes and our sins, but if we're relying on God, wow, it goes a lot differently on how you resolve those things. And so I'm really grateful for that in our marriage.
Then we are also... we are major partners in the gospel. So we help teach people the Bible. We help couples in their marriages. We read our Bibles daily. So I can't emphasize enough how important that is. [00:03:31]
But then also we have a lot of couples in our lives. So what that means is they tell us what they see in our marriage. And that's been huge. We have an older couple who mentors and disciples our marriage, and we can go to them about whatever is going on. Then we also have close friendship couples that were all quite blunt with one another. And that has been huge through the years.
And then that definitely feeds over into our parenting. I have close friends who will tell me, Hey, I feel like you were a little harsh with your son there," or, "Hey, have you thought about this area of your relationship with your kids and how you need to grow in this?" So having friends that are willing to share truthful things with you about your kids is vital.
Tim and I have worked really hard at making sure that we're on the same page with raising our kids. Like, we really are. We work really hard at making sure that we're thinking the same as far as disciplinary choices or even, you know, how to teach or train or help or support our kids through different things. [00:04:36]
We are pretty honest with each other when we feel like we're blowing things with the kids, ways that we need to be either more nurturing or more patient or more hardline or any of those directions. So I'd say because that whole reliance on God, that whole having really supportive relationships, and then really working hard at making sure our marriage is great has really helped with everything having to do with parenting.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. A lot of our listeners today are probably in the phase of life where there's young children at home. You had four of them and you had them... were they pretty close together?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, they're all two years apart. When my fourth was born, they were six, four, two, and a newborn.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And even in the midst of that, you could have easily made excuses not to prioritize Tim. How did you do that? And what did you do that prioritized him during those early years that you're seeing the payoff even today? [00:05:37]
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, on a practical level, I made sure my kids went down to bed... We made sure our kids went down to bed at a very regular hour, and then we would always have an hour or two or more together every evening.
Then all the years before our oldest was 12, we had a co-op of friends, so it would be like three other families, and we would watch all of the kids once a month, and then we would have three dates a month. And that was wonderful. So having, you know, like that whole, you know, it takes a village to raise a child, having a village to help with your kids so that you can get time away.
Then definitely we've always had a pretty active sexual relationship, partially because I just feel like that's vital to staying connected on all levels, especially in the midst of having kids. And so prioritizing your time together sexually. So all of the above. Yeah.
Oh, and going and having fun things, going and doing fun things. Huge, huge, huge, huge, can't measure. My husband is a... he really enjoys the outdoors. I do too. And so really making sure that we have fun together is vital. [00:06:43]
Laura Dugger: Makes me think of that scripture: "This is my lover. This is my friend."
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yes, big time.
Laura Dugger: And you live that out well. And then also with your kids, I remember first meeting you when they were quite a bit younger, they were all still at home and you did something special with them related to like a midnight date. Could you just share about that?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. So our goal with our kids is to have time with each one of them alone each week, meaning I would have something alone with two of them one week and he would have time alone with two of them the other week and we'd kind of swap it around so that every week our kid had a time alone with one of us.
Sometimes, in the busyness and craziness of life, that can be a little challenging to fit it in. And so sometimes, because while they were learning... also these were in their early years when they were learning numbers and time and the clock. So I would wake them up at midnight and say, "Look, and they'd learn about what 12 midnight meant. [00:07:48] And I'd say, "Do you want to go to Denny's?"
So our date would be, our time alone would be to go to Denny's at midnight and yeah, have midnight dates. And that's how they, all four of them, learned about what midnight was.
Laura Dugger: That is so fun. How did you find the energy to do that when you had young children at home?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, that one only happened once every couple of years. You know, I made sure to take naps when they napped. I made sure to go to bed at a good time myself. And I made sure to eat well in the midst of that. But energy-wise, yeah... I'm probably one of those people that's kind of filled up by being with other people. So having great connected relationships really helps me have energy for my kids. But then I would definitely say good rest.
I'm pretty decent at making sure that I get time to do things that I enjoy. But well, I did say even more so getting time to enjoy stuff with my husband. And so that is definitely very helpful to my energy level. [00:08:47]
My husband was super supportive. He was the kind of dad that would come home and he's immediately involved with the kids. Immediately. It was never a conflict between us, which I know comes up for couples a lot, where he comes home and he doesn't help, and that kind of conflict that occurs. He was always super supportive. I tell people, just imitate him. It will help life a lot.
Laura Dugger: It can be counterintuitive what you just mentioned, that making sure you're taking care of yourself actually fills you up to pour out well to others.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yep, yep, big time.
Laura Dugger: Were there any specific things that you made sure on a daily or weekly or monthly basis you were doing to fill up yourself?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, definitely being in the Bible and praying every day. I also really enjoy reading, so I'll find time to tuck myself away to do that. I live in San Diego, California, so I love going to the cliffs. Even now, as my kids are older, I have an electric bike and I will ride it to the ocean and enjoy the view or I'll ride it around a lake by our house. [00:09:59]
So I think, for me, intellectual stimulation is huge. I really enjoy reading and learning just on an ongoing basis. And then also I I really enjoy goofing around and having fun with friends, and so prioritizing fun with friends is
Then I would say on an overall basis, I do really like to get out in nature. And so almost all of our vacations growing up with the kids have been road trips and camping. We've literally seen probably most of the national parks throughout the states and camped there and enjoyed the wilderness and climbed and hiked and walked around lakes. That definitely feeds my soul.
There's nothing like having a prayer time in the midst of the incredible beauty of anywhere in California, all of the Southwest, Colorado, and then really anywhere we've gone in the United States. It really helps my own enjoyment of God and His creation, and really teaching that to my kids in the midst of it. So that definitely fills me up. [00:11:00]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: What is something that you are grateful now that you did in their different seasons, whether they were toddlers, elementary school, high school, and beyond?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Boy, this is going to sound a little repetitive, but I would say absolutely having time alone with them every week. Parenting can be challenging. My kids have all gone through some really tough things through the years, and when they were younger especially, I just felt like I was constantly disciplining them. It was exhausting.
I remember saying to a woman who was involved in my life then that I wasn't sure was I disciplining her too much. My daughter. She was so naughty, and she said, actually, I don't think your discipline is too much, but I do think maybe you're not having enough fun and you're not laughing enough with her. [00:13:00] And I was like, "Oh."
And so I tell people—this really helped me—up your fun with them. I would tell my husband, whenever I would feel, you know, any higher level of frustration with any of the kids, I would make sure to actually go away overnight with them where it was only them and me and we would play. We would do goofy things and we would go out to eat and do whatever we felt like. And I would take them places and we would enjoy.
Actually we do live in California. We'd have Disneyland passes and I would take just one of them with me So we would go to Disneyland all together, but I would take one of them. I would actually Kidnap them from school or I would drive them and drop them all off at school and keep one with me and say, "Wait, don't get out." And then they started to learn this over time. And they'd say to me, "Are we going to Disneyland?
Laura Dugger: Noo.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: And I would take just that child to Disneyland or Legoland or the zoo or some kind of larger than they got to not be at school that day. So, just prioritizing my time, my fun, laughing time with them was really vital through those years. [00:14:09]
Laura Dugger: Wow, I definitely want to try that myself with my own children. That all sounds amazing, and I'm sure they have incredible memories.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, that's the hope.
Laura Dugger: On a little bit more serious topic with your kids, you are a certified sex therapist and you're an expert on this topic. So how did you talk about sex and purity with your children, and even what age did you begin that conversation?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure, that's such a great and important question. So we actually utilized this set of books. It's called God's Design for Sex. I can't remember the authors off the top of my head, but you can Google it, very easy. God's Design for Sex. And then we also used another one. You can find it referred in my book.
We actually have a book called Redeemed Sexuality that's written for singles, campus teens, and parents. So it's got a whole section for parents on how to teach your kids about sex. You can find that referred in there. [00:15:10]
But we would use these books starting at the very first book on... God's Design for Sex is actually for ages like three to five. So at three years old is an explanation on the differences between boys and girls and how babies are in a mommy's tummy and how they're born. So it's not directly on sexuality, but it is on gender and birth. So we did that with all of them at three, explaining their body parts, using the correct words, penis, vagina, so on, for their body, this is the difference between a boy and a girl.
Of course, my older ones saw me pregnant. So we would talk about babies inside of mommy and all of that. Then their next book is like ages, I think like six to nine, I want to say. We had the... this is the book on how sex works, how babies are made. This is the birds and the bees one.
At seven... I always recommend to people by the time they hit first grade, there's all kinds of other older ages around them in the elementary school. They're going to be hearing stuff. We think, Oh, my kid doesn't know anything. He's never heard anything. She's never heard anything. No, they're hearing it.[00:16:23]
So we wanted to make sure that we were the first ones to talk to them. That they didn't hear it from their friends., they heard it from us.
At seven, we sat down with those books. It's called How Amazing, something like that. And it's got these hilarious pictures, hilarious pictures, where the egg is spraying perfume on herself, getting ready for the sperm to come flowing up the tubes to her. So we would explain how sex happens and how the penis goes in the vagina, that this is what mommies and daddies do, in detail on how, yes, mom and dad have sex, and yes, people have sex, and this is how babies are made. That was at seven.
And then we used the rest of their books and then other materials through the years. Because you don't want to just have that conversation then. We continued to have those conversations periodically throughout grade school and middle school and into high school. Just really giving them an opportunity to ask questions.
Now when they hit those ages they don't want to talk about it anymore most of the time. So you have to be kind of creative. As they hit prepubescence and then puberty and into the high school years, that's not exactly the topic they want to discuss with their parents. [00:17:30]
My kids are all funny. This was long before I was a sex therapist. They were like, yeah, we've always talked quite a bit about sexuality in our family. And so even before I did this professionally, we just felt it was vital to make sure that it was an open, honest genuine conversation through the years.
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Going to a broader topic, in general, what encouragement would you have for parents? And you can choose any of the phases you've been through, babies through college. [00:18:45]
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Boy, you know, I think... Here's a practical one for babies. When you put them down for a nap, take one yourself. Get the rest that you need. Toddler years, because often there's a lot of challenges around the discipline of those years, the no from the child is strong, the refusal to obey is strong during those years, and so discipline is generally higher. And so it's really important to enjoy your kids, find ways to enjoy your kids, you know, really nurture your relationship with them.
And I would definitely say, if at all possible, when they start in preschool and elementary school, if at all possible, get involved in their schools, go and volunteer, go on field trips. There's ways to do that even just on a rare occasion to take work off.
I would definitely say that the junior high, the middle school, the high school years, you have to really work hard at staying connected. [00:19:46] A couple of the things that we've always done with our kids is to make sure that we're having a family devotional every week. We have a time of just biblical teaching every week as well as then we eat together. Having dinner is vital.
Staying connected with your kids, there's two books I always recommend. One is Age of Opportunity. I highly recommend that book. The other is Staying Connected to Your Teenager. Dinners regularly, family devotionals.
Actually, our kids are in college and they still come home on Sunday nights for family night. We have dinner together, talk about something spiritual, and then we play games, and so we're pretty competitive. When you come and play games at our house, it's not quiet.
It's hard to have the big, deep conversations if you're not having the continual small conversations. So you have to find ways to be together so that then when you have to have the bigger ones, you've got a better relationship with your children during what could be challenging years.
Definitely through college, I've got three in their senior year, their junior and senior year. Especially for me in the senior year, I took each kid away for a big trip. [00:20:52] Tim took them away to go explore colleges, but he always made sure to do something really fun on those trips. We wanted to make sure that even during those years, we were having some really special times together.
Then as college students, I go do stuff. Actually, I was so thrilled. My son, he was like, I want to say 20 at the time. He calls me up but he decided to get Disneyland passes. You can tell all the memories we built through the years with Disneyland. And he was like, Hey, mom, I know you like to go to all the shows at Disneyland. Do you want to go together?"
And so we went to Disneyland. He was 20. He was going with his mom. He and I had never gotten to do this special dinner that you can do there. So I took him to this special dinner at Disneyland. We didn't do any rides. We just went to the shows. And it's such a fun memory that we had. Then we've had some trips to New York. My daughter and I went somewhere in Mexico.
So I have tried to, in the midst of prioritizing my husband through these years, because I very, very much believe in that, we have also tried to do special little small trips with our kids, even as they've come into the college and adult years. [00:22:00]
Laura Dugger: Quality time has been such a priority for you. You love your family well and your friends well through spending quality time together. During those years when they were all at home, if somebody's listening today and they're like, "I want to do this. I want an amazing relationship with my kids. They're all at home right now," what other tips do you have for connecting with your husband, one-on-one time with your kids, still filling yourself up, being with friends, church? What would you say to all of that?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I'd say one of the things that we had to work really hard at through the years is good conflict resolution. Teaching kids good conflict resolution and teaching them to have good conflict with each other, with their parents.
I love Matthew 15 that says, "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault just between the two of you. And if he listens, you've won him over. If he doesn't, bring one or two others along." So since our children were little, we taught Matthew 15, that if they would come alone and say, Mommy, he's da-da-da-da-da, I'd say, hmm, I notice you're by yourself. What do you need to do? They'd have to first go and talk to them individually, and then if they had a problem that wasn't resolved, they had to bring their sibling along with them and we had to work it out together. [00:23:14]
Now, let me tell you, this has not been perfect through the years, but we've had to work a lot on conflict resolution. I actually had one of my adult children say to me just last week that he was with a friend, and his friend avoids conflict with his friends, and he was like, You need to go talk to your friends. And I wanted to say I didn't. I wanted to say, Yeah, gee, I wonder where you picked up on that. But we have revised conflict resolution a ton through the years.
So we also emphasized it with us, how to respectfully come and disagree with us, especially as they got into the middle school and teen years. So even now as adults, our kids are going to disagree with us. They're going to have different views, especially when they're hitting puberty, and they're coming into their own thinking, and they need to. Healthy autonomy is really important.
We wanted to give them a way to make sure they could come to us and disagree. I don't know that we've done that perfectly, but we have striven to do that, and we've grown and learned ways that we've shut them down, because we have shut them down at different times through the years. [00:24:21]
I really believe that if we're going to become more like Jesus, and if we're living with children who are striving to be like Jesus, then our best teachers can be our spouses and our children. And so really learning to be a learner to those in your family about how you can grow and change is vital through the years.
Laura Dugger: And could you even give one example that comes to mind when you think of a time where you did shut them down and then a time where you did train them well to approach you? Maybe something that we could try with our own children.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. My daughter, during the years when it was a little bit more volatile, she would escalate and I would escalate with her and it didn't go well. One of the reasons why it would escalate is because I didn't feel like she was listening. That's a common feeling that parents have. You're not listening to me. And so a parent will say it over and over and go on and on.
My daughter actually shared with a couple different individuals that she felt like her mom went on and on. Big surprise. So somebody said, "Well, how about you give her the tool to end the on and on if you feel like she's really listening. [00:25:30] And so she and I talked about it.
She came up with this. If I were to say, Mom, that, okay, Mom, what you're trying to say is... and then she would tell me what I was trying to say, then our conversation could be over. She came up with this, we agreed on it. She was probably, I want to say 12 at the time.
I'd say within about two weeks, we got into something and it started to escalate and I was trying to get through to her, right, repeating myself, which is one of the greatest failures of most parents is repeating themselves over and over.
So I was doing exactly that, and she says to me... and she's highly escalated at this point. And then she takes this big breath... I clearly remember this moment. She takes this big breath and she says, "So, Mom," which is amazing for a 12-year-old, "what you're trying to say is." And I tell you, she said it right back. And I didn't want to quit talking because I just felt like she wasn't really getting it, but I had promised her that if she told me what I was trying to say, I would stop. And I said, "You're right. That is what I'm trying to say." And I tell you from that time on our conflict shifted. [00:26:41]
So giving her the ability to be assertive with me and me learning to respect that... and she had to do it respectfully. But me learning to respect that really helped our relationship. So teaching them to come to you is vital.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure.
Laura Dugger: Could you just share where listeners could connect with you and a little bit more about your resources?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. I do have a website called The Art of Intimate Marriage. I have two websites actually. One's The Art of Intimate Marriage and the other is The Ransomed Journey. The Ransomed Journey is for couples where they're recovering from addiction and how to get support through that.
And then the other one is the Art of Intimate Marriage and kind of everything else falls under that. All of my resources for teaching your children about sexuality is on there. Our books are linked there. Everything for married couples. [00:27:34]
Also, all of the podcasts for those who are single and not married and how to live out their sexuality in a God-honoring way is all on that website, The Art of Inmate Marriage. So on there are podcasts. Our books are linked there. The Art of Inmate Marriage is one of our books.
Redeemed Sexuality is the book for single campus teens and parents. And so it helps parents with teaching about sexuality. And we do have a new book called Love, Laughter, and Law: The Power of Parenting. So we really do believe in giving people resources, which is why the writing is continuing quite a bit, so people can have a book in their hands and learn.
The research that I've done is all around sexuality. I've done a couple different research studies. One on married Christian women's experiences of shame and sexuality, just really understanding shame and connection to sexuality. Also, a rather multi-phased research study on taking couples through sex therapy and how they can improve. [00:28:36]
So, really helping couples overall improve in their intimacy, not just sexuality, but their overall intimacy and building empathy, validation, connection is where my research is, and that can be found also on my website.
Laura Dugger: I've read your book before and love it, would highly recommend it. Because we've been focusing on parenting during this time, as we conclude today, what is your savvy sauce as a mama?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say really enjoying your kids. You have to work hard to enjoy your kids. Parenting has a lot of challenges in all honesty. I'd say, honestly, in a practical sense, one of the things that I've really enjoyed through the years, and what I pray about more than anything else for my children, is that they will be in awe of God.
So through the years, helping them learn who God is, how amazing He is, and how much enjoys them is something I've tried to make sure to come back to through the years with my kids. I've tried to live it. I've tried to live it with them and bring them back to there. It is the number one thing I pray for them is that they would be in awe of God, feel His love for them and be in love with Him. [00:29:52] And so I honestly say that is the biggest thing.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for ending with pointing us back toward God. What a great way to conclude. Thanks for your time, Dr. Konzen. It's been great chatting with you.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's wonderful being with you. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:30:55] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:31:55]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:32:56]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jun 17, 2019
Monday Jun 17, 2019
58. Perspective in Parenting in the Midst of Sorrow, Betrayal, and Grief with Former Children’s Pastor, Teacher, and Writer, Penny Harrison
**Transcription Below**
Penny Harrison likes to say she is a teacher by nature and training but a people-pleaser since birth. She is currently teaching Kindergarten (again!) in a private Christian school, while also running a newly formed ministry consulting business. Penny is the mom of two grown boys/men, ages 24 and 21. She had the privilege of teaching in public and private schools a total of 12 years and full-time ministry for 18 years. Besides teaching, Penny loves to travel, watch sports of just about every kind (she says "when you can't do, you watch"), read, and write everything from lists to Bible studies.
Penny’s Ministry and Consulting
Penny’s Blog "Straight Talk/Wavy Life"
Connect with Penny on Instagram @pennyph
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products but cost you only $49.99, visit them at fabfitfun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box.
I was introduced to Penny Harrison through a different guest on this podcast, Leslie Neslage. You may remember her from Episode 13. She has described Penny as being exceptional.
Penny has been a children's pastor, author, teacher, and mentor to so many folks in the Atlanta community. She has developed curriculums for children and adults, and I'm excited to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. [00:01:20]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Penny.
Penny Harrison: Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: For anyone who doesn't yet know you, can you just give us a bit of context and share your story?
Penny Harrison: Oh, sure. I always say that I am a teacher by nature, training, and calling. I've had the privilege of teaching in public and private schools for a total of 12 years. A little over a year ago, about almost 18 months ago now, I retired. Retired would be in quotation marks because I'm definitely not old enough to retire yet. But I retired from full-time ministry after 18 years as being a children's pastor.
I'm once again back teaching in a classroom setting at this time. I teach kindergarten in a private Christian school here near my house. Also at the same time, I'm running a newly formed ministry consulting business that the Lord laid on my heart to start. [00:02:22] So I've got kind of a lot of things going.
I'm an empty nester, which is probably good at this point in my life because I rarely cook anymore. Popcorn has become a staple for dinner these days. I'm a mom of two grown boys, actually men now, 24 and 21.
My oldest graduated from college two years ago, and he lives a bi-coastal, what I would call a starving artist lifestyle. He lives part of the time in New York City and part-time in San Francisco. He's a writer as a trade, but I always tell people he's a waiter to pay the rent. Then my youngest son is a senior in college this year.
And like I said, teaching is just a part of who I am. I truly believe that I was created to teach, and my absolute favorite thing to teach is God's Word. Besides teaching, I really love to travel. I watch sports of just about every kind. It's kind of that when you can't do, you watch. [00:03:25] I grew up watching sports, so I love all sports, which has been great having two boys.
I read and I write everything from lists to Bible studies. I love to write. That's just, I guess, a little picture of who I am.
Laura Dugger: I love that picture. And I'm sure it must take a lot of energy to teach kindergartners. We have a lot of moms and dads that listen to The Savvy Sauce. So from your years of working with so many children, what insight can you provide for us?
Penny Harrison: Oh goodness, I could go in a lot of different directions here. Here's what I would say first to parents of kids of any age is you will survive. I promise. You will make it. You will survive. Every stage has its blessings and joys, and every stage has its hardships. There's things that are hard about every stage. [00:04:25]
I think as parents, we all need to hear sometimes from somebody who's been there that we're going to survive it. And so that's my first thing.
The Lord has been so good to remind me through the years of raising my boys, and I always want to say this to parents, is that God chose you. He chose you to be the parents of the kids that you have. And don't forget that God created them. He knowingly chose you to be their parents. He chose you for them, and He chose them for you.
As parents, I think one of the things we need to remember is that we're shepherds of our kids' hearts and minds and spirits. We didn't create our kids and we don't create our kids. Parents need to hear you're not going to mess up. Yes, you're going to make mistakes. We all are going to make mistakes.
But God knew who your children were before He gave them to you. He knows the plans and the purposes He has for them. I think we can take comfort, actually, when we think about it, that our responsibility, although a big one, to guide and shepherd and lead our children doesn't dictate who our kids are. [00:05:32]
God created them. He put those talents and abilities in them. He has plans and purposes for them. Our job is not to make it, whatever it is, happen for our kids. Our job is really to cooperate with the Lord and to be led by the Holy Spirit in raising them.
Do you want some specific things I've kind of learned about different ages of kids? Is that helpful?
Laura Dugger: That would be really helpful because often so many parents are asking, is this normal? So maybe something normal from all ages.
Penny Harrison: Right. Well, I think one of the things is remembering that we are raising a human being, a being with a will of its own. And that being that's going to become an adult one day, they're going to be disobedient. That's normal. They're going to mess up. That's normal. They're going to experience success. They're going to experience failure. That's all normal.
And it's not our job to keep them from failing. I actually think we do our kids a great disservice when we catch them every time. And because we're raising a human being, it is messy and it is unpredictable and there is never a one-size-fits-all. [00:06:42]
I think anyone who has more than one child could tell you that because every child that you have is different in some way. I know raising my boys I would think they're from the same parents and they're raised in the same household and yet they couldn't be any more different, right?
For parents of toddlers in preschool, think about what you do now in terms of how it will look when they are teenagers. Are we holding them to a biblical standard?
Obviously, that is age-appropriate. Take obedience, for instance, because no child, no human being actually wants to obey all the time.
If you have a toddler or preschooler, you know how exhausting it can be, that battle of wills, no, no, no, no, no, all the time, right? And that's normal. They're really figuring out what power they have in this world that they live in. They've come through the baby stage where they've learned that if I pick up something and I drop it, Oh, if I drop it off my high chair, it falls to the ground.
They've learned sort of this power that they have over things. And when they go into toddlers and even preschoolers, they're still trying to figure out how much power they have in the world that they live in. [00:07:55]
What actions do they do that affect something else, so to speak? In those moments for parents who are living through that right now, take a deep breath and remember that teaching them the boundaries and obedience in those times it's not just about the moment of those boundaries and the moment of that obedience to you. But long term, it's going to be about the boundaries that the Lord sets for them and the obedience to the Lord. They're going to need to follow and obey Him when they're in a relationship with Him or when they're older, obviously.
So I think just standing firm and really seeing that your child has a mind of their own and a will of their own is a blessing, and loving that little strong-willed sayer of no in the moment, but also remembering that what you're doing and showing them is ultimately leading them to how they're going to obey and have those boundaries with the Lord. [00:08:58]
For elementary kids, and because I teach elementary kids too, I think about teaching them how much room you can give them to mess up a little bit. The stakes are really low at that age when they fail, when they mess up. The safeness of your home, the comfort of your loving household, let them fail. Teach them how to brush it off, to stand back up and to try again, to not give up.
The stakes and the consequences become much bigger as they get older, especially I think in the society that we live in right now. I mean, we all hear the term helicopter parents. We want to protect our kids. And I think we live in a world where we feel like we have to protect our kids more than ever. And I'm not saying that's not true.
But I also think it's really important to allow our children to have a place to fail and for them to know it's okay to make mistakes. Even going back to the classroom this last year, I've had to have this conversation with parents whose kids think they cannot make a mistake. I mean, there are five. I'm trying to teach them that in my classroom and encouraging parents in that way to say to kids, "It's okay to mess up". [00:10:07]
Laura Dugger: What might that actually look like to allow an elementary school child to fail? When you say the stakes are low, what's an example that you can think of?
Penny Harrison: This seems super common sense, but I think it's just a reminder. When you think about a child, let's say they have a project at school and the teacher has obviously given them, this is the standard by which you're going to be graded. But you allowing your child to do it, you know, the way that their mind thinks it needs to be done and you not stepping in and saying, "Well, you know what? Like if you put that picture on the poster board crooked, it doesn't look very neat." I mean, it sounds really simple and it sounds almost silly, but that's an example.
I mean, I was guilty of the same thing when my kids were doing things that I would think, Oh, I need to tell them not to do it that way, which I'm not saying we don't guide our kids and say, Hey, have you thought about, you might not want your picture to be crooked on your poster board. I'm not saying you don't give them guidance. But I think so many times we step in and we almost do it for them. [00:11:13] That's just a simple little example.
I think another thing too, this is an example from my own life, my youngest son was a big soccer player. He was having issues on his team, really with his coach. And it would have been really easy for me to go to the coach and say, "Hey, this is the way he is taking how you're saying this."
And I really felt from the Lord I wasn't supposed to step in. I was supposed to let him fail a little bit on the practice field, let his coach yell at him or whatever he was doing, and so that my son could know, "You know what, I can go to him and say, this is what I'm hearing you say, this is how I'm supposed to do it, and maybe I'm not doing it right. I need to know what you want me to do."
So he could almost learn what it meant to be his own advocate. I think if I had stepped in for him and I had gone to the coach and said, "This is what he's hearing," I wasn't giving my son an opportunity to grow in that way. Did he have some failure there? Absolutely. But the stakes were low. It was soccer. It was just a team thing. He figured it out. [00:12:21]
Later, the stakes and the consequences for them not really knowing what it means to kind of have a speed bump or a failure of some kind is much bigger later. I think just encouraging parents to kind of be hands-off when we can and not to feel like we have to step in so quickly.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. Those are really helpful examples. Do you have any other examples for junior high or high school students?
Penny Harrison: You know, middle school is... whew, man, that's a tough three years. I always said you feel like it's almost like your child disappears for about three years. All of a sudden you don't recognize them. And the bottom line is they don't recognize themselves either. And I think we forget that.
I always tell people middle schoolers are like really big toddlers. So remember how your toddler acted where they could cry over a broken cookie one minute and they were laughing because you said the word poop the next, you know? Or they have this do-it-myself mentality one minute and the next minute they want to crawl up in your lap and be rocked. [00:13:26]
Well, that is how a middle schooler acts. They're just a lot bigger, and their emotions are all over the place. They're unpredictable. They have no idea who they are. One minute they are a kid, and the next minute they think they're grown. And you never know which one you're going to get as the parent.
I tell people when my kids would wake up when they were in middle school, I was always like, "Okay, which one am I going to get today? Am I going to get the kid, or am I going to get the person who thinks he's a grownup?"
So my advice for middle school parents is first of all, be patient. And second of all, get a group of other parents around you that you trust, that you can talk to, that we're in this together, and that you can have some conversations around like, This is what's happening with my kid. Is this normal?
Now, in saying that, I would say keep your hands out of friendship issues as much as you can, because I feel like with middle schoolers too, they go through kind of a push-and-pull time with their friends, even for a friend that's been a friend for years. [00:14:34] Because again, they're still trying to figure out who they are. One minute they relate to their friend and the next minute they don't. So try not to fix that for them. Let them figure it out.
I think it's really, really important for parents at every stage but I feel like middle school is when it becomes more evidently important is that you have other parents who are in your corner that you can talk to. And this is the thing that I always tell people. I did this with my friends who were parents of my kids' friends, is we would say, "if you find something out that you think is something I need to know, you've heard something, you've seen something on social media, whatever that is, I need you to know that you can call me and I'm not going to be defensive. I'm going to listen, and then I'm going to decide how to proceed from there with my child. But I need to know that there are other parents looking out for my kids, and I'm looking out for yours."
Because there's a lot of, especially with social media, in the day and time that we live, it's so easy for us not to know some things that might be going on with our kids in middle school and high school. And we need to know that we have people who are looking out for our kids like we are. [00:15:44] And we're looking out for their kids. And we have that open communication. And we're not going to be defensive and feel like somebody's telling us we're not a great parent because our kid did this thing. We need to be able to have those conversations with each other.
Again, I would say middle schoolers, parents, hang in there because there's something about they hit high school and all of a sudden your kid comes back and you're like, "Oh, I recognize you again." And you're a little bigger and you're a little more mature, but you've come back to me. I recognize this kid again.
Laura Dugger: I think that's really practical. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: As it relates to parenting, what truths do you find in the Bible that we may not have considered?
Penny Harrison: This is one of the things I would say first is stop trying to be a good parent. Instead, be a faithful parent. Nowhere in Scripture does it say to be a good parent. [00:18:13] That's not used in the Bible anywhere.
We're given instruction to bring our children up in the training and instruction of the Lord. We're encouraged to impart wisdom and hold our children to a standard of obedience. We're called to shepherd their hearts and their minds and their spirits, and it's a huge responsibility. But again, nowhere does it say to be a good parent.
I think "good parenting", that kind of term, has caused confusion and unnecessary comparisons, and maybe even some discontent. It's just so subjective. How you might define good parenting is not the same way I would define good parenting. So we start to compare ourselves.
She's a good mom because of this, or he's a good dad because of this, or I'm a bad mom because I don't do it that way. And we do this comparison thing, and I think it really actually ends up hindering our parenting because we're not relying on the one who gave us these precious little creations in the first place. We're relying on what we see outside of ourselves. [00:19:25]
What we end up doing is comparing our kids to other people's kids. It puts a lot of pressure on us as parents, and it also puts a lot of pressure on our kids. So I say, don't even use those words. Good mom, good dad. Just be a faithful parent instead and ask the Lord to show you how to be a faithful parent.
We have to remember that we're an example of the Holy Spirit for them. Until they have their own relationship with the Lord and they can be led by the Holy Spirit, we're that example of the Holy Spirit for them. We have to love them for who God created them to be. Stop stressing ourselves out.
Kids as young as second grade are being diagnosed with anxiety disorders. So think about that. What does a second grader really, what should a second grader have to be anxious about? Nothing. The Lord reminded me, there's a verse in Ephesians, Ephesians 6:4, and it says, "Fathers, do not exasperate your children. Instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord."
Do not exasperate your children. And I think we can't exasperate our kids unknowingly. There's this undercurrent of the standard of what... something that they can't really live up to, maybe. I think that just is a recipe for disaster. [00:20:44]
Ask the Lord to lead you and be faithful to what He has given you to be a faithful steward to what He has put in your care. And then ask the Lord to remind you, what am I looking at that's eternal? What am I concentrating on that's just temporal? What's only going to last on this earth that's not going to matter for eternity? And then ask the Lord to help you lead your kids that way.
Laura Dugger: I think that language shift from good to faithful is really important because it seems like that would lead to a change in our behavior and really our freedom in our thoughts and pressures that we put on ourselves.
Penny Harrison: Absolutely. Absolutely. It does take the pressure off when you think, You know what? God gave them to me. Yes. I want to be a faithful, to be a good steward to what He's given me. But ultimately, with anybody not just our kids, this is for everybody, salvation and... all of that is the Lord's responsibility.
It's our responsibility to show our kids who the Lord is and to lead them to the Lord but the Lord is the one who works in all of our hearts, including our children.
What it comes down to is we're putting much more stock in what we can do and not enough in what the Lord can and will do. [00:22:01] And when it comes to raising our kids, man, that's a dangerous place to be. It's all on me. I'm in trouble, right?
Laura Dugger: And that can lead to so many things in pride. And you can see in the scriptures that He wants us to be dependent on Him.
Penny Harrison: Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: Well, I know for my husband and me, a few of our goals in parenting are for our children to personally choose to surrender their lives to Christ so that we can spend eternity together in heaven. And we also hope to have solid relationships with each of them when they're adults. So again, from your years of observation of families, have you seen any similar characteristics of these families who are a little bit further along and they're enjoying the culmination of these goals?
Penny Harrison: Well, did either of your parents ever say, do as I say not as I do? Mine would say that sometimes. And I think that would be, it's like, do as I say is super important. I don't think that mindset on parenting is super helpful. [00:23:03]
Now, let me say this. My parents are awesome parents. My mom is one of my best friends. She's amazing. But I do think we can talk and talk and talk to our kids until we're blue in the face, but our kids are savvy and they watch what we do. So I think we want our kids to have a relationship with the Lord.
Obviously, are we showing them our relationship with Him? Are we praying and reading our Bibles and going to church and living like a missionary? Are we loving our neighbors? We can tell our kids to do and be all of those things, but if they don't have real examples in us, they most likely won't because they won't know how.
And so I think one of the biggest things I've seen as a characteristic of families, that I can look at these families and say, wow, they really see the fruit in their children's lives of things that they did, kind of really boils down to one thing, and that's intentionality.
We live in this world, this affluent society, and we're typically very intentional about certain things. We're intentional about the school that our kids go to. We're intentional about the things that our kids do and don't watch on TV. We're intentional about, you know, are they on this soccer team or this soccer team? We're intentional about, oh, they need this dance class so they can do this dance class. We're intentional about those kind of things. [00:24:29]
But are we as intentional about our kids' spiritual walk? Do we read the Bible to our kids? Do we read the Bible with our kids? Do we point out God's goodness and his provision in our lives all the time? Do we make God and His word a part of our daily language with our kids?
I'll give you a couple of examples. So let's say that, you know, Dad comes home from work one day, he's had a really bad day. And he's particularly down, the family sits down to eat, and he shares that he's found out he has to lay off part of his staff. I mean, that's a real grown-up worry, right?
So depending on the age of the kids, Dad can share that with the family. This is what's going on, and then talk about how that's affecting him. Because I think sometimes we protect our kids from thinking we ever struggle, that we ever have any kind of worry, that we ever have any kind of hard thing that happens to us. [00:25:30]
But let's say Dad shares that example with his family, then the family is able to pray about it with him. They're able to talk about, okay, how is God going to lead us through this? How is God going to lead Dad through having to have these conversations with his staff? How is he going to lead him through kind of dealing with, if it's guilt or whatever that is, as he's having to let people go and these people aren't going to have jobs?
I think we need to show our kids that God is not just a part of Sunday morning. It's not just a part of when we go to Bible study or our small group on Wednesday night or whatever that is. He's a part of every decision we make. He's a part of helping us through the hard times. He's a part of us rejoicing with Him when the things are going well, that He listens to us when we pray, that He answers us, that He guides us.
One of the things that I've seen in families where you see this really great fruit in their children is that parents were intentional about making that a part of the daily conversation. [00:26:39]
I think another thing, and this was huge with my kids, when I would talk to them about God and His Word and what His Word says and teaches us every day, that I saw the fruit of that later. And here's what I mean. Every kid is going to make a bad decision. It might be a little one, it might be a big one, but they're going to. Every kid.
Or at the very least, you're going to have to have a tough conversation with your kid, right? You're going to have to talk about something either they've done or that friends are doing or... you're going to have a tough conversation with your kids.
And as a Christian parent, most likely we're going to want to pull in what God thinks about this topic and what God's word says about this topic. In that moment, the question is, will our kids see that as we're preaching to them, or will their kids see that as a natural part of the conversation?
And I think if we're intentional about making God and His Word and what His Word says a part of our conversation from the time that they can even have a conversation, that when you have to sit down and have a conversation about a decision that's going to be made or that has been made, it doesn't feel like you're beating your kids over the head with scripture, it feels like a natural part of, oh yeah, this is part of any conversation we have. [00:28:05]
Where I've seen parents really be blessed by the fruit in their children's lives later on is that intentionality from the beginning.
Laura Dugger: Thanks so much to Kp4me who left a 5-star rating and review on iTunes with this quote. "I absolutely love the intro episode and hearing the personal stories of The SavvySauce team. The obvious smiles behind the voices brought a smile to my own face while I listened. Can't wait to listen to every episode. I'm fairly new to the world of podcasts. Savvy Sauce is an awesome place to start."
Thank you so much for taking the time to write that. This grassroots approach is the best way to get the Savvy Sauce podcast in front of more people so that we can continue to get amazing guests on the show and receive sponsors who make the shows financially possible to produce. Thanks for your contribution.
From a previous conversation you and I had, you mentioned that God is teaching you about the word perspective. So what are you learning about perspective right now? [00:29:07]
Penny Harrison: Well, it may be an age thing, but I definitely think this word "perspective" is something I've been hearing from the Lord over the last year, really strongly in the last few months. Some of that is connected to what I've been allowed to share with parents, talking to them about how every age of raising kids is hard for different reasons.
So I have a heart for telling or trying to kind of convince parents in some cases that it will all get better. Because, you know, obviously, I have perspective because I'm past that. But I also think that the Lord has put on my heart for young parents, in particular, is just reminding them not to sweat the small things, refocus on the bigger picture, what is God saying to you for your child, what are the specific prayers you have for your kids? Those kind of things. Not so much looking at the now, but keeping eternal fruit in mind.
I always just want to say, will it really matter later that your child is the best soccer player when he's eight years old? Is that going to matter? It matters now. Of course it does. But what is he learning through the process of playing soccer or whatever that thing is that's going to be kingdom values later? [00:30:17]
I think in my walk with the Lord, I've definitely gained some perspective. We have those moments where we feel like we're climbing or even moving mountains with the Lord and then we have those desert or valley kind of times.
I think for me personally, what the Lord has been so sweet to remind me of, is that those changes in kind of the temperature of my faith walk are not always a result of what I am or am not doing. The Lord never changes, so our circumstances will change, and sometimes it feels like our closeness to Him changes, but that's really our perspective, because He's always there. He's always working. He never forsakes us.
And so I think for me, perspective has just really been about remembering that I can't always see that, that I don't always feel that, but His perspective is sovereign and eternal and mine is not. So I trust Him to change my perspective, to be more like His, and to remember that His love for me is not dependent on me. His love for me is about who He is, not who I am. [00:31:25]
I think for me my walk with Him has just been about "it's not about what I do or don't do". And when I say do or don't do, I really mean like the works that I do. God created me to be such a kind of obedient servant, which could be a good thing, but I can get in a ditch if I am just trying to do instead of just be with Him. And so I think the Lord has just really given me a new perspective on that.
Then, I think I've just gained some perspective on the world, this crazy world that we live in. Even in my own circle of influences, I just have to stop worrying about things so much. Honestly, it's been a gift from the Lord that the things that used to really bother me don't bother me anymore.
I would get crazy anxious or worried or even a little angry about things that happened in my life or things that happened in the lives of others that I loved. And God has just given me a more healthy perspective where I worry less. I don't really get my feathers ruffled too much. [00:32:34]
And there is a righteous anger, obviously, when we allow our hearts to be broken by the things that breaks the Lord's heart. I mean, we can look at some of the things happening in our world and even in our city and we can have this righteous anger that we know that's not what God would want to be happening. But perspective for me has really come down to remembering to daily lay those things at the Lord's feet.
Somebody gave me a picture once, and I think this is really a great one, is that if you picture the cross and you go up and you lay the things at the Lord's feet for the day. Do you in turn get up to walk away and pick something back up and take it with you? Or do you really leave it there? So sometimes I really have to remind myself, Lord, give me that picture that I'm laying these things down, and when I get up from your feet, when I walk away, my hands are empty.
Laura Dugger: You also say that the Lord has equipped you to talk about dealing with deep sorrow and betrayal and forgiveness. Are you willing to elaborate? [00:33:40]
Penny Harrison: So deep sorrow for me, really for the first time in my life, happened in 2002 when I experienced the stillbirth of my third child, a boy that we named Austin. Honestly, I was so confused and I was... I was mad. I was mad at God.
Months earlier, when we had decided to expand our family, I really felt like it was a leading from the Lord because I really had thought, you know, my family's finished after two and then the Lord really led me to know that I was to have another child. And so I had this anger of why would He lead me to have a child only to take Him away?
So in that confusion and anger with the Lord, I received some very wise counsel from my pastor at the time. He told me it's okay and even appropriate to be angry, to be mad, to stomp your feet, even yell at God if you have to, but just don't stop talking to Him. He reminded me that God is big enough to take my anger, but what He didn't want was for me to give up on Him. The Lord did not want me to give up on Him. And so I did. I stomped my feet. I yelled. I cried. And God really met me there. And I think more importantly, I met Him there. I met Him in a deeper way than I ever had before. [00:35:00]
And I really learned in those months following my loss what it meant to have joy even when I was as far from happy as I can get. I don't think I had ever experienced that before. I know I hadn't. I think after that, I really loved God more than ever before. So that loss and that sorrow and how my faith grew during that time would later be the reason I survived a devastating betrayal. You know how God just uses everything we go through for something else that we're probably going to go through later. Betrayal, man, it's tough. It is rough.
I think we all suffer betrayal on some level in our lives, whether that's in an intimate relationship with a friend, a family member, a spouse, or sometimes we're unjustly accused by someone we know or someone we don't know. There's just all kinds of betrayals. [00:35:54]
Mine was in the context of marriage. My husband, we had been married for seventeen years, together for almost twenty at that point, he had an affair. And when I discovered it—the way I discovered it was totally the Lord. That's a whole other story—the affair had already been gone on for about seven months. Over seven months actually.
I certainly don't want to drag my ex-husband or the father of my children through the mud by sharing all the gory details, but it was nothing less than devastating. Brutal actually the months that followed after me discovering the affair.
I had a ten and a thirteen-year-old boy at the time, and so I'm trying to kind of navigate my own questioning of everything, losing my sense of stability, kind of knowing that my future now was going to look very different than I had ever imagined it would. I also had to answer the questions my boys had, and I had to assure them, and I had to lead them to forgiveness and keep them away from bitterness toward their dad. [00:37:01]
Like I said, betrayal is awful. It is brutal. But as the Lord leads you through that kind of pain, He also guides you to forgiveness. The sorrow I had felt when I lost Austin, because of the closeness I felt with the Lord then, it helped me in that time of betrayal to really lean on the Lord.
The Lord leads you through something like that. He leads you through forgiveness. That verse that the Lord tells us to forgive seventy times seven, that was never more real for me than during the time that my marriage was falling apart and the divorce that followed.
I had to forgive for myself, and I had to forgive for my kids, and I had to forgive out of obedience to the Lord. I mean, I had to forgive and continue to pray for this man who was no longer my husband, but was the father of my kids. I had to pray for the person that I once knew and the person that I honestly could look at and say, I don't know him anymore. [00:38:06] I had to pray for someone who was lost.
Part of the thing that happened in the divorce is that my husband told me that he had tried the God thing and it didn't work for him. So I had to pray for this person who had walked away from the Lord. And the Lord just continued to show me over and over and over how to forgive. He healed my heart. He redeemed my suffering.
The Lord even led me to have a face-to-face experience with my ex-husband and his girlfriend, where I was able to tell them face-to-face that I had forgiven them. And just the healing and the redemption that came that was evident for my heart was just miraculous, honestly.
What the Lord has done through that sorrow and betrayal and forgiveness is He really equipped me to minister to other people. I think part of the mystery and sovereignty of the Lord is that He can take what often seems like the most terrible parts of our story and He uses it for good. [00:39:09] Not that He causes the sorrow, I don't believe he causes betrayal, but He can and He does redeem it.
I've had the opportunity, the privilege really to speak truth and hope into others' lives because of my experience, which is really nothing short of a miracle to minister to other people, especially women who have gone through some of the same things.
Laura Dugger: Penny, I just have knots in my stomach hearing about this pain, but I do see how God gets the glory when you share your story because nobody could display joy like you are right now after such devastating experiences if it were apart from God.
Just to follow up, going back to your story, even with Austin, did you know ahead of time that there were any complications or was it right when he was born?
Penny Harrison: Well, I was what they would consider a mature. That's a nice way of saying you're an older mom. I was having a lot of tests just to make sure everything was okay, and I went in for one ultrasound, and they let me know that my amniotic fluid was a little low, which they weren't too concerned about. [00:40:22]
The baby was growing. He was doing well.
Actually, what's very interesting is that we did not know it was a boy at the time. Every time I went for an ultrasound they couldn't get a clear picture is it a boy or a girl. So we didn't know. So I ended up on bed rest only because my amniotic fluid was low. The baby was growing. I was hitting all the markers. I had not had any pain, no bleeding of any kind. None of that at all.
I went for a checkup right at the end of my pregnancy and because I was on bed rest, I couldn't drive. And so my dad took me to the appointment. And when I got there, they did an ultra... Hey, let's do another ultrasound before, you know, this baby's born in a week or two. And there was no heartbeat. So they had to induce me, so I delivered Austin.
Again, because still even that late I did not know if it was a boy or a girl, we had picked out a girl name, but had not picked a boy name. [00:41:23] But my two sons they had continued to say, "Mom, if it's a boy, we want you to name him Austin." I don't know where they came up with that name, but they just kept saying it. So when I delivered him and it was a boy, we, of course, named him Austin.
And what's so cool... Again, this is just, again, how God is just so sovereign. And we never even realize how He's working until we look back. But later, probably two years after we lost Austin, I was cleaning out a cabinet and I found a baby name book, and it had been from years before when I'd had my son Matthew, and I had written down names that I liked, and I had circled the name Austin in that book and did not remember that. And here my two boys had come up with this name, what we thought was out of the blue, but obviously, the Lord had downloaded that name into their hearts for whatever reason.
So I would say there were complications in the sense that I was on bed rest, but never any inkling that we were going to lose our child.
Laura Dugger: So devastating regardless of when you discover that news. Some of our listeners have walked through similar experiences and maybe there's some people that we don't even know who are listening today and this is fresh for them. So how did you really survive after that? [00:42:49]
Penny Harrison: I think the wise counsel that I got that it was okay to be mad. Because I think any woman who has lost a child whether that's been an early miscarriage or that's been a stillbirth or that's been, you know, they've had their child and they've lost them devastatingly to cancer, whatever that is. I think that we need permission to feel the pain. We need permission to be mad.
And I think for me, I think it was one of those moments where I was like, there's someone right now who is having a child they don't even want. You know, that was what I said to the Lord. And I'm a mom who, you know, I love my children and you know that I want to leave my children to you. And how is it fair?
I think that just having that permission to be mad and to really talk to the Lord, and I think because I was given that permission and I actually did those things, the Lord healed my heart. He healed it. I remember the first time that I went somewhere with my other two kids and I actually laughed again, when the laughter first came out of my mouth I almost felt guilty. Like I'm still supposed to be sad. [00:44:04]
And the Lord reminded me, That is joy that is bubbling up in you. You're still not fully happy, but you have joy. And because your joy is in me, I will make your joy complete. That's what He promises us. So I would say to that mom, you know what?
Yes, it hurts, and it's okay to be sad, and it is okay to be angry, but to talk to the one who can fix it.
Talk to your friends. Talk to your spouse. Talk to your pastor. But don't forget to talk to the one who can heal you. And He will. It seems impossible in the moment because you're so devastated. You think you'll never be joyful again, but you will. The Lord will give you that. He promises that, and He is faithful.
Laura Dugger: Yes, thank you for that encouragement. But you had mentioned that there is a whole story with the Lord for how you did discover the betrayal. Would you like to share that story? [00:45:10]
Penny Harrison: Oh, it's such a God story. I was a children's pastor for 18 years, and about a year before the betrayal happened and I discovered it, the Lord had led me to leave my current ministry job at a church and go with a church plant to another church. In doing that, my husband and I both were on the leadership team.
So this church plant that was starting, there were 30 total adults and 17 kids. And there was a group of eight of us, four couples that were on this leadership team. So we were very involved in getting this church started and all of that. And so I was actually teaching full time and doing the ministry job part-time. Because I had gone with this church plant, they couldn't pay me, so I went back to teaching full-time. So I was doing both.
The very morning that we were to open the doors of this new church to the public... We had been meeting together in a little house. We had finally kind of gotten our own little space and a storefront. And the very morning that we were to open the church to the public, I did what I did every morning. I got up early. I got ready. I was going off to my ministry job. My husband would get the kids ready, and they would come to church later. [00:46:23]
So I went downstairs to leave, it was if my feet were frozen and the Lord said to me very clearly, "Pick up his phone." Now, I had never looked at my husband's phone. I never looked in his wallet. There was no reason for me ever to thought I couldn't trust him. And I just thought that was the strangest thing. And it was like the Lord would not let me take one more step until I obeyed.
And he said, "Pick up his phone." And so I did. I picked up the phone and there was a text message, obviously from a woman, very intimate message to my husband. So I went upstairs and woke him up and we had this whole thing and life just crumbled around me.
But I believe, with everything in me, two things. One, the Lord revealed it to me. There were little things that had happened months before. Little things like go walk the dog with him. He doesn't need to walk the dog by himself tonight. Go walk. And I would walk. And later I found out he was using those times of being out of the house to talk to her on the phone and that kind of thing. So there were little things. [00:47:43]
But this morning, I believe with everything in me, the reason that the Lord stopped me in my tracks and had me discover that devastating thing then was for me, but it was also for the church. Because here was a person on the leadership team of this church that was about to open its doors to the public. And what better way for the enemy to attack a church than that, right?
I think that the Lord had me find out that moment, not only to protect me from any further pain or any of that, I also think it was to protect His church. I believe that with everything in me.
When I found out it was God's timing, it obviously wasn't His plan or His timing that it was happening at all. But I think when the Lord revealed it to me, it was definitely something that needed to happen when it did. And it protected not only me in the long run, but it also protected this new church that was being born that needed its leadership to be following Him and not sinning. [00:48:49]
Laura Dugger: Wow. Your perspective is just incredible. You've said that going through those awful circumstances has now helped you comfort others. And I think that's just my prayer for today, that whoever is listening, that this would be a comfort to them, even if they are experiencing something traumatic like you had.
Penny Harrison: Well, I hope so, too. I think that's just the mystery and the goodness of God, how He takes the bad things in our lives, and He can use it for the good of those who love Him. I definitely have seen Him do that in my life.
Again, I've just had the privilege and the honor to be able to speak truth into other people's lives when they've come to me and said, "Hey, this is happening. You know, can you help me? Tell me, tell me how you live through this." You know, I think the Lord can use that. And that's just such a blessing when you know, okay, this was painful for me, but hopefully I can share hope with someone else that's going through it. [00:49:54]
Laura Dugger: You clearly just have so much to offer, Penny. I know that it says in the Bible that sometimes Jesus was amazed by someone's faith. Today I just want to let you know I'm amazed by your faith. So thank you for being faithful and being such a witness, really, to all of us.
If somebody would want to find you online, where can they go?
Penny Harrison: Well, a couple of places. I have a website for my ministry consulting business. My business is called It's Not Child Care and I have a website, itsnotchildcare.com. They can find me there. I also have a blog called Straight Talk Wavy Life. The address for that is just pennyharrison.blogspot.com.
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will surely link to all of these in the show notes. I've really just appreciated this time together. So I have one final question for you.
Penny Harrison: Okay.
Laura Dugger: We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And so I am curious, what is your savvy sauce? [00:51:01]
Penny Harrison: Well, it's not very spiritual, but for me it is key. My savvy sauce is to laugh every day. Talk to someone who makes you laugh, watch a comedy, read something, just do something that makes you laugh. Laughter is just a mood changer.
I'm kind of an easy laugher, so this isn't really... It's not hard for me. I mean, I can just talk to one of my kids, my two sons, they make me laugh all the time, or I can read a funny blog, or honestly, I can just watch an episode of an old episode of Friends on Netflix and I'll laugh. So I just try to do one thing every day that will make me laugh. You know that saying, you rather laugh than cry? So I try to choose laughter and I just try to find something to make me laugh every day.
Laura Dugger: I love it. That's a great challenge to end on. Thank you for all the nuggets of wisdom that you shared with us today. It's been a pleasure.
Penny Harrison: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor. [00:52:01]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:53:07]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:54:09]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:55:07]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jun 10, 2019
Monday Jun 10, 2019
57. Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 143:8 (NIV) “Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I life up my soul.”
Kat Lee is passionate about teaching others how to jump-start each day with a grace-filled, life-giving morning routine. She is the author of the Hello Mornings book (published by Thomas Nelson), a speaker, podcaster, and the founder of HelloMornings.org. She and her husband, Jimmy, live in Waco, Texas, with their three children.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Kat Lee’s Website: Hello Mornings
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products, but cost you only $49.99, visit them at FabFitFun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box.
I can't wait for you to hear this chat with my guest, Kat Lee. Kat is an author, podcaster, blogger, and speaker, and I expect you to complete this conversation feeling empowered to make her recommended three-minute change in your day that will actually change your life.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Kat.
Kat Lee: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be with you today.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just dive right in. Can you start us off by telling us your personal story of redemption?
Kat Lee: Absolutely. So, you know, have you ever seen Goonies? Do you remember that show that came out when we were... Well, maybe I was a kid. I'm not sure how old you are. But like the bad guys have this one kid, and they're like, so, you know, tell us what happened. [00:01:30] And then he goes back, well, I was born in whatever, whatever. And he goes like way back to the beginning, and they didn't mean for that.
So whenever people say what's my personal story of redemption, I kind of have to go back to when I was born, but it feels like that part in the movie Goonies because they're not expecting me to go that far back. So hold tight, everybody listening. I am going back to when I was born, but I promise not to go year by year because that would be a long time.
But it does go back to when I was born because when I was born, nine months afterwards, my mom actually passed away. So I never got to meet her. Actually, up until I think about seven or eight years ago, I don't think I ever even saw a picture of her and I in the same photograph. So just growing up, I didn't really understand motherhood. I felt like I had this hole. I was on the outside of this relationship that everybody else had and everybody else understood. [00:02:27]
I remember I would go to school or Sunday school, and we would make crafts for Mother's Day or whatever, and it was just this painful place where I would be obedient, make the craft, and then just throw it in the trash on the way out. And just felt like, okay, well, it's not something I can change. I'm never going to understand what this whole mother-daughter relationship is.
My dad was a single dad. He was great. He did great with my brother and I. But, you know, I was never dressed super cool. I was always kind of a little bit outside of the bubble of what that mother-daughter relationship is, of going shopping with your mom and all those things.
As life went on, just kind of reconciled myself to the fact that I was never going to really understand the whole thing. And it's just so neat. I actually specifically remember, I guess I was in my 20s, and I was at a Sunday school lunch or something, and my Sunday school teacher was sitting with her daughter on her lap. She was maybe 9. [00:03:24] They were playing like one of those hand-clapping games. And I never, never understood those. I don't know if that was my lack of rhythm or a lack of a mother to teach me. I don't even know what.
But they were playing one of those games. And it was just this moment. I was sitting there eating my barbecue and looking at them and thinking, you know, I'm 26 years old at this point in time, "I'm never going to understand what that relationship is like."
You know, now looking back on that moment, I can kind of almost imagine God whispering, Just wait. Because then I became a mom. And I never really knew what that was going to be like. I didn't realize how that would bring my story so full circle. God totally blessed me with not just one, but two little girls. Now they're teenagers. I also have a little boy. He's 12. I guess not so little. But it's just been so redeeming to be able to be the thing that I always wanted.
And in the process of this whole journey of motherhood and just following Jesus, I think we'll get into a little bit more of this later, but I ended up starting a blog about motherhood, which seemed really ironic because I'm the motherless mom blogger. What's that? [00:04:32] But I just felt like that was where God wanted me to go and what he wanted me to do.
The blog ended up doing well, and Compassion International, it's a child sponsorship organization, they invited me on a trip. I remember when I got the invitation, it was a text message. And it said, "Hey, we're going on a trip. Do you want to go?" Because they would invite writers to go and see the work that they did in these different countries.
I followed Ann Voskamp and Melanie Schenkel and all these people that I really admired, and I was like, "What? I get to go? This is amazing. I get to impact these kids' lives." I was just so honored and blown away.
Then the next text message said, "We're going to the Philippines. Are you interested?" So the way that brings my story kind of full circle is that my mom was from the Philippines. I never actually knew her. I never knew her family. I never really knew anything about that culture because my dad was all American, blonde hair, blue-eyed and I grew up with that side of the family. [00:05:30]
And just through a bunch of crazy and amazing circumstances, through Facebook, one of my cousins from the Philippines ended up reaching out to me just months before I went with Compassion on the trip. So on the same day that I got to meet my Compassion sponsor child, I also got to meet my mother's family. And there were 18 of them.
We pulled up to the hotel with all the other writers that were with me on that trip and I'm like sobbing, ugly crying, mess, trying to go through security to get into the hotel because there was this wall of windows. And I saw all these people standing there as our bus pulled up. I just knew that that was my family.
And it was this amazing moment where I got to meet the brothers and sisters of my mother and they got to meet the daughter of the sister that they hadn't seen for so long. It was just a powerful, I don't know, kind of puzzle that God put together of never knowing my mom, of inspiring me about the nobility of motherhood and wanting to speak truth to mothers and starting that blog, and then Compassion finding it and then taking me on a trip to the very place that was going to most connect me to the mom that I never knew. [00:06:44] Just so neat how God weaves this whole tapestry of our lives together and can bring us full circle. So that was a little longer, but it wasn't 43 years' worth.
Laura Dugger: That is an incredible story. And your family in the Philippines, they didn't just have a really easy journey to get there. Is that right?
Kat Lee: That's right. There were over 18 of them, and some of them had traveled over 24 hours just to get there that day, just to meet me. And so it was amazing. We stay in touch to this day. The Filipino culture, not having known anything about it when I grew up, was just so amazing to me because they're so kind and loving. If I post something on Facebook, I have a billion people liking it.
And growing up on my dad's side of the family, it wasn't a very big family. And now I have all these people, and they're just liking everything and inviting me to things and sending me pictures. And it's just amazing and fun. And I love how God works things together.
Laura Dugger: Yes, he does. In light of your story, I love what you wrote in page 11 of your book, Hello Mornings. You said, "But I was passionate about the nobility of motherhood. I knew the power of a mother's influence, positive or negative, present or absent. A mother's impact is undeniable. I clearly felt God calling me to speak encouragement to moms." [00:08:09]
So clearly, Kat, your motherhood journey has played a part in you launching your podcast and writing a book and the blog that you had. So now how has life changed for you since stepping out in faith to encourage other moms?
Kat Lee: You know, I think God used it kind of like when you're in elementary school and you're asked to teach the section on I Live in Texas. So the section on the Alamo. And when you're asked to teach that, you learn so much more about the Alamo than you did when you studied the section on the battle at San Jacinto or whatever, because somebody else taught it. When you're asked to teach something, you dive so much more deeply into it and you learn so much more about it.
And I feel like encouraging moms and using the blog and podcast and now writing a book has just kind of pushed me to focus even more on this topic that's so important to me. It's helped me to focus even more on who I want to be and the kind of mom that I want to be. [00:09:11]
It's also God's used it to connect me to mentors that I would have never known. I've been able to become good friends with Sally Clarkson. She's just been such an encouragement to me, just speaking truth and life, and just love reading her books and everything that she does. And just different women that have invested in me and loved on me and good friends to walk with who maybe understand my season a little better that I might not have met just in my hometown.
You know, sometimes when we step out in faith, we're able to connect with people that we might never have otherwise. God has really used it to encourage me and to kind of uplift me and uphold me as well by giving me great people that have invested in me along the way. So it's been a real blessing. It was scary.
You know, when I first started the blog, I was like, I'm still not qualified to do this. But, you know, the more I think about it, how many people in the Bible were qualified to do whatever it is that God wanted them to do? You know, David was not qualified to fight Goliath. Esther was not qualified to be queen. Not to put myself up there with those people, but I don't think God calls the qualified. He qualifies the called, as I'm sure many pastors have said over the years. But I think it's so true. And just stepping out in faith, it's been neat to see how He has equipped me for the journey. [00:10:25]
Laura Dugger: Well, and your journey even evolved to you having this revelation of encouraging people to wake up for their day instead of waking up to their day. So can you share a little bit more about that transition?
Kat Lee: Yeah, it wasn't pretty. My kids were little. And for those of you with little kids, how old are your kids, Laura?
Laura Dugger: They are all five and under. We have four.
Kat Lee: You're in the thick of it. My kids, I don't remember how old they were exactly at the time, but they were small and they were at the age when alarm clocks meant nothing and sleeping in meant nothing. They would come in and... my alarm clock was them jumping on me, you know, asking for Cheerios or a cartoon or whatever. And I would just start the day on the defensive, waking up to them instead of for them.
One particular morning, I just... I like to say I had a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day and it was not even 9 a.m. I'd been grumpy. And I just remember thinking, My kids are going to need so much therapy for the way I've behaved today. You know, just one of those days where you just feel like you're failing at everything. [00:11:28]
I guess they'd been able to go down for a nap. And I went out to my minivan in my garage in Texas in July, which means it was like 5,000 degrees in there. And, you know, when you're already feeling bad about yourself, you just kind of go to the most uncomfortable place possible. So I'm sweating and ugly crying and just a general pity party mess. And I was praying and I was thinking, "God, I wanted to be a mom. I wanted to do this thing well. I know the nobility of motherhood. I know the greatness of this calling and I stink at it. God, what am I doing wrong? How can I turn this ship around?"
I just really felt like what you just said. You know, just you need to stop waking up to your kids and start waking up for your kids. I was like, well, start waking up a little bit early. And I'm like, my kids wake up at, oh, dark 30. I get up early. I've got that nailed. And it was more like, no, I want you just to wake up with purpose and intention and connect with me first. And so I did. [00:12:32]
But, you know, with little kids, you don't know when they're going to wake up. So it wasn't like I could get up and have this magical candle-lit quiet time that was an hour long with worship music playing and have it be the perfect amount of time every morning. It was more of a God, I need you desperately and I'm going to connect with you any way I can every morning and not wait for that perfect quiet time, quote unquote.
And so it just started like that and just started connecting with Him each day and really learning about how our quiet time isn't meant to be just this specific time in the morning. But it's kind of more of a launching point for us to connect with Him all throughout the day.
Our schedule is part of our worship. How am I spending the time that God is giving me? My energy level and how I manage that is part of my worship. How am I honoring the body that he's given me? So, yeah, that's just kind of created this thing that we call God. Plan. Move. And that's kind of the focus of my morning time. How can I connect with God? How can I plan my day according to his purposes? And how can I move and have the energy to move for his glory? [00:13:41]
Laura Dugger: Now how has this simple practice of "God. Plan. Move" changed your life?
Kat Lee: Really, ultimately, just to start my day focused on Jesus. Every morning I try to have my first thought be Psalm 143:8, which is kind of my theme verse. And it says, "Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I entrust my life."
And while I say the same thing every morning, I really want that to be the cry of my heart. I want to truly put my trust in Him and not in anything else that could happen that day. Not in my spectacular plan or my awesome productivity or whatever else. I want my trust to be wholly and solely in Him. I want to follow Him throughout the day.
I want Him to show me the way I should go. You know, not just, okay, I met with you, Jesus, check, now I'm going to go about my day separate from you. That's kind of how it can often be. I'm going to read my Bible reading for the day and then I go about my day. [00:14:43] But instead, the idea of God. Plan. Move has helped me to just really incorporate and weave my quiet time in throughout my day, so that I'm spending time with Him. It starts my day focused on Him.
It jumpstarts my day because I'm spending time with Him. I'm looking at my schedule for the day, submitting it to Him, saying, "Okay, this is what I have on the plate for today. Anything need to go? Anything need to stay? I don't want my schedule or my plans to be my idol. I want them to be my sacrifice. So God, I just submit this to you today. What needs to be added or changed?
I think it's amazing how we have the opportunity to connect with and commune with the God of heaven who created us. Each day he knows exactly who we're going to encounter. He knows exactly what challenges we're going to face. And if we'll just take the time to listen to Him and connect with Him, He can guide us to the exact things we should do, the places we should go, the things that need to be on our schedule or off our schedule. [00:15:45]
So it's just really been a powerful habit for me to jumpstart my day with Him and then submit my day to Him. And then the move time, just to make sure I have the energy to follow Him wherever He's calling me to do and whatever He wants me to do. I don't want to start my day great and then eat a bag of donuts and get frustrated with my kids because I've just had a sugar high and then a sugar low.
So I really want to kind of have a holistic approach to my faith in that the way I treat my body is honoring to Him or not honoring to Him. And how much energy I have is honoring to Him or not honoring to Him. So it's been a real blessing to me just to feel like my life is kind of balanced. Absolutely not perfect, but balanced.
Laura Dugger: So balance is one of the main benefits. Are there any other benefits you can think of that could inspire us to incorporate our own three-step morning process?
Kat Lee: The primary benefit, just being connected with God and starting our day with Him. It's kind of like you think of a football player. [00:16:49] If a football player goes to, let's say, the Super Bowl, what he's never going to do is he's never just going to run out in the field and be like, "Okay, everybody, I'm here. Let me throw the football."
No matter what, no matter how late his Uber drops him off for the championship game, the first place he's going to go, he's going to go to the coach because the coach knows the opposing team. The coach knows the opposing team's plays. The coach knows who's injured on his team, what's happening. He knows the whole situation. So that quarterback is always going to connect with the coach and throughout the game, he's going to connect to the coach.
I don't think it's really any different in our lives. I think sports is just kind of a microcosm of what our whole life is. And really just the core benefit of a morning routine is to be connected with the Lord because He can lead us to everything and anything that we need. And if we try to live our lives apart from Him, we're pretty much destined, I think, for disappointment and to live subpar lives than what we could live if we're connected with the one who created us and has a purpose and plan for us. [00:17:51]
Laura Dugger: I couldn't agree with that more. If somebody wants to start their own three-step morning process in hopes of eventually making a habit, how can they get started?
Kat Lee: Well, we actually have a super, super simple thing that we call the three-minute morning, and it's based on the “God. Plan. Move” concept. So it's just one minute for God time, one minute for plan time, and one minute for move time.
So just to make it very simple, we've actually given specific instructions. But again, this is totally... anybody can mix and match however it works for them. But what we encourage people to do is start with... for their God time, just pray Psalm 143. That's that verse that I just shared. "Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I entrust my life."
And just taking a minute and just letting that be the cry of your heart. Be like, God, I just submit my will and my plans and everything to you today. I trust you and I want to follow you. And just taking a minute, praying that to Him. Again, that could be any verse if you want to mix it up. [00:18:54]
Then plan time, just looking at your calendar. Okay, what do I have on my schedule today? God, anything need to go? Anything need to be added? Am I missing anything? Am I forgetting anything? Bring to mind anything important that I need to be doing today.
Then honestly, that's probably going to take like 10 seconds for most people. But if you take the full minute, I don't think we have enough white space in our culture today. I think it's powerful just to take that whole minute and be like, okay, God, I'm really just going to listen. I'm not just going to listen real quick and hope you say something right away. I'm going to sit and just wait here for that full minute.
Then the last one is move time. And we encourage people to drink a glass of water. I think most people are pretty dehydrated drinking sodas and coffee. Just starting your day well-hydrated is a great place to start. But you could also take 10 deep breaths or do jumping jacks. Just something to say, Hey, I realize that it is a gift to have this body. With whatever level of health that I have or whatever level of mobility I have, it's a gift and I want to honor that gift. [00:19:55] I might not be able to do a massive workout today but I'm going to do something and start my day with something to give myself energy so that today can be a great day.
Just three minutes. Psalm 143:8. Look at your calendar. Drink a glass of water or do some jumping jacks. It's super simple. We encourage people to do it every day. And, you know, I know a lot of people might think, oh, that's really simple. That's not enough. I need to do something huge. But I think more often than not when we try to do something huge, it doesn't last.
So if people can just start with these three minutes. And then they can do more after that of whatever they want to. More God time. More plan time. More move time. But having this as a consistent base for me has been game-changing. Because even in seasons of sickness or whatever, I'm able to do these three things.
And it reminds me and establishes my identity that I'm a woman who meets with Jesus every day. I'm a woman who lives with purpose every single day. I'm a woman who honors my health every single day. Even if it's just this tiny, tiny thing. [00:20:54] So I think it's a real powerful thing, even though it's really simple. But it's an easy way for everybody listening to get started.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. It's such a bite-sized place to begin. Like you said, that'll be encouraging to see what it grows into. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: I know that this three-step habit you articulate has been used in such a helpful way to already benefit so many people, myself included. So will you teach us what you've learned through this process about the power of habits?
Kat Lee: Well, I'm kind of a habit junkie, honestly. I love reading books about habit-building. [00:23:02] I think the way that God designed our brains to just naturally want to turn things we do repetitively into habits is fascinating.
I think one of my favorite things about real habits is that when there's things that we want to do, a lot of times we think that we just need a lot of self-discipline or a lot of willpower. But the cool thing about habits is that it replaces willpower and self-discipline.
So if you can do something small continuously, you stop having to think about it. It builds this neural pathway in your brain. It's kind of like Lewis and Clark. When they first crossed the continent, it took them, what, like six months to cross the continent. Now you can get on the interstate and cross the country in a matter of days. Because of the foundation that they laid and all the people that went afterwards day by day or whatever, it continually reinforced that path that was built across the country.
It's kind of the same with habits. Even if it's a small thing that we're doing every single day, the more we do it, the more it's ingrained into our brains, the less we have to think about it, the more it becomes kind of a natural response. [00:24:11] It eliminates the need to have to gut it out and work out every day or gut it out and have our quiet time if that's something that's hard for us to do.
The main thing that I've learned about habits is just the power of them, if we can actually build them. And that the way to build them is through really small, tiny steps. Because a lot of times we think of habits more like New Year's resolutions. Some big thing. "I'm going to suddenly wake up an hour earlier. I'm suddenly going to work out for 30 minutes."
It usually, for most people, doesn't happen that way. Just like we don't suddenly develop bad habits, we don't suddenly develop good habits. It's a process, and we need to kind of take baby steps, just like a little kid learning to ride a bike or play an instrument. They don't start off with big chunks. They start off with little ones. So I just love how powerful habits are so that we don't need all the willpower. The easiest way to build habits is by starting with really, really, really ridiculously tiny ones. [00:25:11]
Laura Dugger: You've been at this work for years. What stories come to mind that you can share to illustrate the impact of this habit on people's lives?
Kat Lee: It's been so neat just to get emails from people just sharing how maybe they felt overwhelmed by guilt because they weren't having the quiet time that they used to have in college, and now they have little kids. And so they can't spend an hour, and they're just feeling guilty about it and guilty about it. And they started the three-minute morning, and they're like, I don't need to feel guilty. And just as they're connecting with the Lord, He's able to lead them to verses about grace and about His love, and they're able to grow on that small habit instead of just being crushed by guilt and then not doing anything.
And so I just love how it allows people to restart, whether it's a habit that they used to having when they were younger, and now it's been harder to do as their families and their lives have gotten more complex, or whether it's women who are restarting after big changes in their lives and different seasons. The kids have gone away or whatever. [00:26:14]
But then there's also been people who have read the Hello Mornings book because they're interested in a morning routine or have found the site because they're interested in a morning routine. I actually had one comment, I think it was a book review, it said, "I'm not a religious person, but this book made me want to be." And I love how just the idea of a morning routine is very interesting to a lot of people and it's drawn some people in and really started their relationship with the Lord.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. And He can use anything to pursue us and start a relationship with us.
Kat Lee: Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: And I love in your book, you say on page 38, "There is so much power and awareness in knowing yourself and those around you." So can you just share why that life skill is important and how you personally cultivated this awareness?
Kat Lee: You know, just like anything in our lives, whether it's our computer or our car, it comes with an owner's manual. And if we're going to get the full use out of it, we read the owner's manual. I couldn't figure out how to connect the Bluetooth to my car for a long time. [00:27:19] I am a pretty tech-savvy person. And I was like, Why is this not working? And so I'm like, well, maybe just I should read the owner's manual. So I read the owner's manual and I was able to do it. Years of frustration were erased just by reading the information that came with it.
So I think it's sort of a natural thing. The more we can understand the tools that we have at hand, the better we can use them. Our personality and who we are is really a tool that God has given us because we're like no one else in the world. And the better that we can understand that for His glory, not just for our own selves or to think more of ourselves... If we like what our personality test results are or whatever, it's not just for us. It's ultimately all this is, How can I know myself better so that I can better glorify God in my life?
I just think it's an incredibly powerful thing because then we know why we're responding to people. And it kind of creates this space between things that happen to us and then our response. So, for example, I can be introverted after, you know, a lot of time with people. And if I wasn't aware of that... and I remember not being aware of that in college. [00:28:26]
And I remember, you know, somebody then coming up to me at the end of maybe a mission trip where I was with a bunch of people, and I was so annoyed by this person and I couldn't figure out why because I used to like them. Like at the beginning of the trip, I really liked them. But at the end of the trip, I just did not want to be around them. I just thought it was them or me or I didn't know.
As I've gotten older, as I've learned more about how I'm made and what drains me and what fills me, I've learned, oh, I need some processing time. And if I don't have that, then I just kind of shut down. And if I had known that back then, maybe I wouldn't have been so rude to this person.
Then now with my kids, if I get back from speaking somewhere, I know I need some processing time. And it allows me to say, oh, kids, I'm so excited to see you. Mom's going to go for a quick run or a quick walk or whatever. And I know that I need that time. So between seeing my kids or seeing people, I'm able to build that buffer and then my responses are so much more healthy and life-giving to myself and to other people. So it's been very helpful to me. [00:29:32]
You asked ways that I've cultivated this. I think it's just taking different personality tests, being aware, and noticing, Oh, I'm really grumpy right now. Why am I really grumpy right now? Or, oh, I didn't like that. Why didn't I like that?
So, you know, that can be journaling. That can be just noticing things. It can be taking personality tests. Sometimes I like making drainer filler lists on a piece of paper on one side. I just list all the things. What are the things that tend to drain me? And then on the other side, what are the things that tend to fill me up? And it's going to be different for everybody. But just being aware, I think, is the first step.
Laura Dugger: I think that's a really helpful tip so that listeners can know how to grow in their own way in this area. Can you also debunk the myth that this is narcissistic?
Kat Lee: I think honestly that that could even be a tool of the enemy to make people think, I don't need to understand how God made me. I don't need to understand the way that he designed me. [00:30:32] And then the less we know about ourselves... you know, it eliminates that buffer. I can't even imagine thinking that it's narcissistic. I think anything is only narcissistic when our ultimate goal is ourselves.
So whatever it is, as long as our ultimate goal is to bring honor and glory to Jesus, then it's probably a good thing. And if our ultimate goal is to bring honor and glory to ourselves, then it's probably something that we need to get rid of. So I think that can be applied to all kinds of things that are both good and bad, and it just depends on the intent of our heart.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's well said. I was reading this morning in 1 Corinthians 12, and it first starts telling about how the Holy Spirit gives us gifts for the betterment of everyone, or to build everybody else up, basically. Specifically, in 1 Corinthians 12:27, in the Amplified version, I think it just summarizes what you're talking about. And it says, "Now you collectively are Christ's body, and individually you are members of it, each with his own special purpose and function." And I think you're just saying, discover that so that you can serve others and glorify God. [00:31:45]
Kat Lee: Absolutely. You know, if I went back to that football analogy, if a kicker went out onto the field and was just like, well, I want to be a right tackle, the quarterback is going to get sacked every single time. You know, they're not going to be some big tackle person. If they took the time to evaluate themselves and their gifts and their likes and dislikes, they might like tackling people, but maybe that's not exactly what they need to be doing. And so, you know, if they're evaluating, Oh, I can really kick the ball really far, then they realize their right place on the team, and then it allows the whole team to thrive. I think that's kind of where narcissism comes in.
If we aren't evaluating ourselves, and, you know, how God made us, then we might just do the things that we kind of think are cool instead of understanding our place and where God put us and the people that he put around us. And I think taking the time to do this just allows everyone to thrive around us as well.
Laura Dugger: Hey friends, I don't want you to miss out on this incredible deal. For as little as $5 per month, you can unlock access to our secret bonus episodes for The Savvy Sauce. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can click on the Patreon tab to sign up. Instantly, you will have access to our patron-only podcasts where you can hear an encouraging message for your marriage from Military Spouse of the Year and licensed professional counselor Corie Weathers. [00:33:08]
You can also unlock the episode where certified financial planner Natalie Taylor shares how to enjoy living with the money you have and how to make that money grow wisely. These are just a few samples of the episodes already loaded for you to unlock in addition to the bonus monthly episode you will receive each month you are a patron. We hope you check it out today.
So if people do want to grow in this area, you've mentioned even like that filler drainer list, but can you think of any other questions that we can start asking ourselves or maybe ask others to help grow in general awareness?
Kat Lee: Yeah. I think thinking through how we process emotions is important. When I get angry, how am I processing that? When I feel stressed, how am I processing that? Or am I even taking the time to process that? Or am I just kind of flowing through life and then I have this boiling cauldron of emotion underneath me?
There's actually an app that I've really liked lately. It's called Flow State. And you can get it on your computer or on an iPad or whatever. Basically, what it does, you set a timer, it's usually like five minutes, and you just have to keep typing, and if you stop, it deletes everything you've written, which sounds terrifying, I know, to some people. [00:34:20]
But I love it because it's been a great way for me to just journal and process my emotions without thinking through anything too much. I know some people do this... I forget the name of the book, but this woman recommends writing warning pages, where you write, I think it's maybe three pages, and then you throw it away.
I just think even that process of just writing whatever's coming to your brain, whatever you're feeling, whatever you're thinking, getting it all out there can be a great way to just even start some self-awareness as well.
Laura Dugger: That's a great place to get started. And even in your book on page 51, you have journal spaces to answer questions like, which activities did I look forward to? Or, which activities left me with more energy for the rest of my day? Which activities drained me? So, some very practical questions. But I think your book is a tool that can also help people grow in this general awareness.
Kat Lee: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a bunch of resources in that chapter, just personality test links and that sort of thing. And again, lots of questions and journaling space so that, you know, they can think through how God made them and the things that maybe they haven't even considered before and can shed so much light on how they respond to things and maybe give them that buffer for how they truly want to respond to life. [00:35:36]
Laura Dugger: Well, you've definitely inspired us today, Kat, and you just have a way of guiding us clearly with ways to begin this journey for ourselves. And I'm excited to hear from listeners how this improves their lives and what changes they implement after hearing your ideas.
So if anybody wants further accountability, where can listeners connect with you online?
Kat Lee: Sure. They can go to hellomornings.org. That'll connect them to our podcast, to our online academy, to our social media accounts, and all that stuff.
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Okay, we'll link to all of that in our show notes and on our "Resources" tab on our website. I have one final question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So Kat, what is your savvy sauce?
Kat Lee: The thing that I'm loving right now is doing things in batches. This is super practical, but I'm realizing that I love it. I've learned that I don't love making lunch every day or cooking dinners every night. I like sometimes to rely on my past self, if that makes sense. [00:36:44]
So, you know, maybe one Saturday I'll make a whole bunch of breakfast burritos, or I'll cook something in the crock pot and then put it into containers and put them in the freezer. And I feel like it just helps me on days when I feel like everything is falling apart, that I'm like, Oh wait, I already made dinner. I'm awesome. You know, it's just like that extra encouragement that, okay, I haven't lost everything. I still have some stuff together. I can put a meal on the table. Nobody needs to know. Not that I'm trying to trick anybody, but it feels to everybody like it was this great home-cooked meal when really I just pulled it out of the freezer and reheated it and put it in a nice bowl.
So just doing stuff like that in batches, whether it's cooking, whether it's work, and writing a whole bunch or recording a whole bunch at one time, I think I've learned about my personality. And this might be true for some listeners as well, that kind of once you're in the flow of doing one thing, it can be so helpful just to do a whole bunch of it, and then you don't have to think about it for a while. So that's the current thing that's been a blessing to me. [00:37:44]
Laura Dugger: That is a great savvy sauce. Kat, I just love your gentle approach. And thank you for spending time with us and giving us so many practical tips to implement into our own lives.
Kat Lee: Aw, thanks so much for having me, Laura. It's really been a pleasure.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:38:44]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:39:49]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:40:50]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jun 03, 2019
Monday Jun 03, 2019
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
56. Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 5:18 NIV “May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.”
Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness. Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
The Power of a Positive No by William Ury
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse.
To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Dr. Michael Sytsma joins us today to discuss desire, frequency, and conflict related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Dr. Mike is a certified sex therapist and an ordained minister, so I hope you enjoy his unique perspective on these important topics.
He was my professor in graduate school, and I have always admired his work. I hope you feel the same way after hearing our chat today. [00:01:22]
Welcome, Dr. Michael Sytsma.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.
Laura Dugger: We're so excited to have you. For anyone who has not met you yet, can you just share a little bit about yourself?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, so background-wise, I'm a pastor. I've pastored for a number of years. I'm a professional counselor. I'm a certified sex therapist.
Today, I run Building Intimate Marriages, which is a marriage ministry. We do marriage counseling, a lot of affair recovery, sex therapy, working with high-conflict couples, and then also working with premarital and couples that just really want to enrich their marriage.
I also do workshops, seminars, and speak in churches, mainly around the subject of marriage and sexuality.
Laura Dugger: Great. And you were one of my professors in graduate school, and so I've been a beneficiary of all of your work.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: We're actually recording today in your office and just walking in, it's such a calm place. So I hope that people who are local here to Atlanta will get to experience this someday. [00:02:25]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks.
Laura Dugger: To lay our foundation, why is a healthy, God-honoring sex life with your spouse even important?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think it's important for a number of different reasons. One is what it does in tying a couple together, the bonding, the binding that it has for the relationship. So a couple will come in and sit down in my office, and they'll say, "You know, we've got a good marriage, but we feel like we've kind of fallen into roommate mode or brother-sister mode." Pretty much can guarantee that the sexual part of their relationship, the physical intimacy, is what's dropped off, because that's what keeps the chemicals floating around in our system that helps to kind of tie us together. It makes that relationship totally unique from any other relationship.
I can be in a roommate situation and deeply care for my roommate and deeply care for who they are and the relationship that we have. I can be in a business partnership and really work well on accomplishing something. [00:03:27] But we don't have the physical relationship. So adding that into the marriage, we do really well in our finances or we do really well in parenting. As business partners, we're good. Adding the sexual piece into it is what makes it a very unique relationship and helps to tie that couple together.
Laura Dugger: From a biblical perspective, is there any scripture that's especially important to you related to this topic?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, there are a lot of them that, to me, are really important in the topic. In following the last question, thinking about how important is it, it would just be that God said to the married couple to drink deeply, to enjoy it, to celebrate it.
All of scripture is really focused on a married couple celebrating their physical intimacy, celebrating the intimacy that they have, allowing them to reflect who God is in His intimacy and His desire for us. Many times through scripture, He talks about Himself as being the groom, and the church or the nation of Israel being the bride, and how He pursues them and how He wants them to be open and to draw Him into them. The language that He uses is very longing and very celebratory. [00:04:44]
Then He sets up boundaries to protect the sacredness of it. Sometimes we get stuck on the boundaries as we start to talk about sex. And really, scripture is about celebrating the intimacy and the oneness and the coming together.
So I think the, you know, drink deeply, enjoy. May you always celebrate and enjoy the life of your youth, He says. I think the passages that just say this is good and rich.
Laura Dugger: That's great. For the general population, what is some helpful sex education that you believe we're not being taught?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I don't think we're being taught really well that sex is about both the physical and the spiritual of who we are. Whether you're faith-based or not, there's still a spiritual aspect of who we are. And there's a strong physical component to it.
It's easy for us to think about sex as being just about the physical. And it very much is our bodies are designed uniquely to enjoy the physical aspect of it. Just how the nerves are set up in our genitals, how the nerves are set up in the rest of our body, we're designed to enjoy, to celebrate the physical aspect of it. But that's only a part of what sexuality is. [00:06:00]
If we keep it fully focused on the physical, then when couples get older and the physical stops working really well, then couples kind of get stuck. Where if it's about both the body and the spirit of it, and we learn how to deeply emotionally connect with each other, we learn how to relationally connect with each other, and we use the sexual vehicle as a way to enrich the emotional and the relational connection, now we've got a whole unit. We're not just the physical, and we're not just the spiritual. We're bringing both of them together into it. I don't think we're taught that well.
And so what we find is couples getting older or couples running into physical illnesses or couples running into different life kind of crises where the physical gets removed for them. A woman going through breast cancer and they've robbed all of her estrogen and that's having an impact on her body or the guy going through prostate surgery or just a couple naturally getting older if it's been about the physical, they often don't know how to keep that part alive.[00:07:11]
One of my clients is 74 and he sat across from me and he said, "I'm having the best sex of my life." He said, "At 74, I can't believe it, but I am truly having the best sex of my life." He said, "To be honest, at 74 my body doesn't always play long robot, and hers doesn't either." But he said, "That's really okay. It's great when the physical works, but even when it doesn't, I am still having the best sex in my life." I don't think we teach people well how to have sex that's not tied to our bodies, to use our bodies as a part of it.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And if somebody, this is their first time hearing that idea, how would you recommend they start now tying in the spiritual part of sexuality?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think part of it is them sitting at a coffee table and just talking about it with each other. How do we bring the spiritual aspect of it in? Because sometimes that is truly where it begins anyways. [00:08:13]
You know, kind of the stereotype is a husband walking in, 80% of the time the husband's going to be the higher drive person in a marriage, and he walks in and he says, you're really cute, can we? And her instinct is, after you've touched my heart, after you've spent time with me, after you've cared for me. Well, that's the spiritual aspect of it that she's inviting him into.
And if he can step into it, what would help her to soften? What would help her to feel truly cared for and enriched? And what would help him to feel like his heart was cared for? That's kind of where it starts. And then if they can bring that piece into the bedroom, where they're looking deep into each other, where they're just really enjoying each other, that'll bring the spiritual, that relational aspect in. And it's not just focused on body parts and technique. The focus on body parts and technique is not wrong, we just don't want it to be only about that.
Laura Dugger: Sure. You're saying that there's more likely a heavy focus on that in culture?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I believe so, yeah. It's not very often that we watch a movie where there's a sex scene and it's about the heart of it. [00:09:20] You know, it's just about the physical of it, typically.
Laura Dugger: Well said. What other areas in marriage affect a couple's experience in the bedroom, both positively and negatively?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Because sexuality is so much at the core of who we are and at the core of a marriage, I don't think we could identify a part of the relationship that's not tied to sexuality.
Money, for example. You know, the top two argument starters for couples are money and sex, because money and sex are the commodities of marriage. They're in limited supply. And so we get into power struggles over how do we use them and who gets to choose how we use them. So money definitely ties into it.
Kids. Are we honoring each other in it? Are we working as a unit? And if we feel like there's division or you're not supporting me, that plays into the sex life, because are you supporting me, are you listening to me, are you caring for me in my sex life?
In-laws. If we go into how work plays in and it steals our time away, or you're putting more focus into work than you are me. I don't think we can come up with a part of relationship that doesn't affect our sex life. [00:10:31]
And that's part of what we see as sex therapists is the couple's sexual life becomes a barometer for the rest of their relationship. And if the sex life is going good, usually the rest of their relationship is going pretty good. They may have some areas of struggle, pretty much every couple has a couple of areas of struggle, but overall, their relationship's going well.
If their sex life's not going good, it tends to be corrosive and tear apart the rest of the relationship. And if the relationship's going poorly, it tends to be corrosive and tear apart the sexual relationship. We don't see that as much for money or parenting. It can encroach and erode at those. But it's going to encroach and erode upon the physical sexual relationship.
Laura Dugger: Let's break it down a little bit with each of those topics that you talked about. Let's start with money. You said that's similar. So how can a couple improve their sex life through their management of money as the topic, maybe if that's the one that they always argue about? [00:11:39]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: So what does it take to have great financial responsibility? Couples will play that out a little bit differently. But generally, the couple needs to have a common vision. Here's who we want to be as a couple financially. We want to have the newest, coolest car every other year. Or we don't give a flip about our vehicles, they're just tools. We're saving up so that our kids can get doctorates at Ivy League schools. We want to be able to pay for that. Or, no, our kids will manage their own education. We want a house on the beach. Or we just want to live simply and we want to have a huge retirement fund. All of those are fine things to do. The couple needs to have a shared vision.
Well, similarly in a sex life, what is the shared vision? What does sex mean to us? And what does it look like for us to have a good sex life? Then we have to figure out whose roles are whose. Only rarely do I see it work really well that both pay the bills. Somebody needs to have the responsibility of just doing the dirty work of paying the bills.
Quite often, one spouse enjoys that. They like the detail work of figuring it all out. One likes to be able to track the budget. One likes doing the investments. In our family, Karen does a really good job of managing the day-to-day finances. They drive me insane, and I don't want to deal with that level of detail. [00:13:08]
But when it comes to investments, that's scary for her. She says, "I don't understand it, don't want to understand it," and so she hands it off to me. Well, that's fun for me. So we kind of figure out what the roles are.
Similarly, in a sex life, a couple needs to figure out whose role is who. Who's the one who does the primary initiation? Who kind of plans this? And who does what during the sexual act? When a couple's talking about it and they plan it out and they make it intentional, it tends to work much better.
Couples who aren't talking about their finances and aren't intentional about it, it gets out of control. Similarly for the sex life. And what we find is all the way along the line, the skills that we learn in one arena tend to play into and affect the sexual relationship. Does that kind of make sense?
Laura Dugger: That is very clear. What would be some conversation starters if a couple never has had a conversation about who is the primary initiator or what other sex roles they're playing? What are some ideas you have if they want to talk about this tonight with their spouse? [00:14:17]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Actually, I think diving straight into it may be a little bit dangerous for some couples. If a couple is really good at talking to each other about the difficult subjects, they may be able to dive into it. If they have a hard time talking about whatever the other difficult subjects in their marriage are, so if they have a hard time talking about parenting, they may have a hard time talking about the intimate arenas of their sex life. And they would want to go work on just improving their communication first. And that would be the first thing that they would do.
And they could just sit down and start talking through a story from childhood or teenage years or a movie that they saw that talked about sexuality and what they liked about it. So we're kind of talking a little bit more distant than our relationship.
I actually have a handout on my website, in the Try This at Home section, that couples can use to guide them through that early types of conversation. [00:15:19] When they get ready to go deeper with it, I think the first question to ask each other is, what do we want it to look like? If I could craft our sexual relationship five years from now to be what I think is realistic, not ideal, but we really could achieve this, what would it look like? What would the frequency be? Who would initiate and how often? And what would we do? How long would foreplay last? What would the time after? When we're cuddling in bed together, what would that look like?
And just start to craft a vision for what would they like their sex life to look like. I think that's probably the first place.
Couples have to do that with curiosity. We're wired very differently as men and women, even though there's a lot of overlap. Often we'll talk about there being more variance within the gender than between, but there's still some difference. And to be curious. "Really? You're wired like that? That's what you want? Well, that's really strange to me. Help me to understand it more." So rather than looking at our spouse and saying, You need to be like me and you need to want what I want, being curious about what they want and just sitting down and leaning into it. If a couple can talk well, I think that's a great way to start.
Laura Dugger: That's a great grace-filled response as well, just being curious with your spouse, not condescending, not judgmental. [00:16:48]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Not critical, yeah. "There's something wrong in you" doesn't work. "Wait, you're a smart person. I know you love me. Help me to understand that because that makes no sense to me." That will keep the conversation moving forward.
Laura Dugger: So communication, I'm hearing you say, is crucial. That's a beginning place.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah. Our research on healthy sexuality and sex that works really well in marriage regularly comes back to the couple's ability to communicate about it. What we find couples coming into our office is generally they have not talked about it.
So I look at them and I start asking questions of, well, how frequently would you like to have sex? What would you feel good about? Which is a very different question from, you know, how often do you get horny? We try to come up with good, biblical, holy ways to say horny and we can't. So "how often do you get horny?" is a very different question from how often would you like to have sex. And just getting them talking through to those questions. [00:17:48]
Laura Dugger: Anything else that you would add?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: One of the research studies said that couples who communicate really well, they get to know what each other wants and they're able to serve each other much better. But they're also able to speak up when this doesn't feel good or I don't want to go forward. And I can allow you to be disappointed that I don't want to move forward, but I have to be able to speak up about it. I have to be able to talk with you about it. And I have to be able to ask for what I want in this process. That ability to communicate at that level is really central to having a truly healthy sex life.
Laura Dugger: That's really important what you're saying there, because I think that something maybe subtly being taught or expected is that the lower desiring spouse, maybe they should never say no, your body is belonging to your spouse. And that scripture can be misused. What's your take on that? [00:18:51]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: So my buddy and I had keys to each other's houses. And if I needed a tool, I'd go borrow his. If he needed a tool, he'd just come into my house and use it. I totally trusted him and it made things much easier. We both tilled our gardens every year. I have since learned that's probably not the best thing to do, but that's what we did.
He went out and bought a brand new tiller because we rent it. And he says, "Come take a look." And I went over and I'm looking at his tiller and it's just gorgeous. And I said, "So do I get to use it?" And he said, "No." I'm like, "What do you mean?" "No." He said, "For this first year, if you put any scratches on it, I will really resent you. At the end of this first year, I'll have it all scratched up and I won't care if you put scratches on it, then I want you to use it. But for the first year, no, you're going to have to rent one this year."
And I so appreciated him protecting the friendship, him protecting the trust that we had in each other by saying, "If you do this, it's going to do a wound to the relationship." And his ability to say no made his "yes" far more powerful. [00:20:02]
I really cringe any time I hear a well-meaning person say that you should never say no to your spouse sexually. I think that does so much damage in the relationship. I want my wife to say yes to me. If she can't say no, I never know when she's saying yes.
William Ury talks in his book, The Power of a Positive No, of how important defining our yes is. But when we clearly have our yes defined, no gets much easier. And if a couple is pursuing a healthy sexual intimacy, any time it doesn't feel like you're pursuing me for some healthy reason or a reason I can get on board with, we need to be able to say no to protect our marriage, to protect the relationship, to protect how I see you.
Now, if our no is punitive, "No, you hurt me yesterday and I'm going to punish you by saying no, that's not okay. If we're always got the brakes on, then something's wrong that needs to be explored. But if it's truly the, "I am so sorry, I am tired tonight, I didn't reserve energy for you," I think we need to be able to say no. [00:21:11] Then project a time that I will have energy for you because I want us to have a healthy sexual relationship.
But if I can't say no, I can't protect the marriage, I can't protect the friendship, I can't protect how I honor you, and I can't protect our sexuality. Scripture says to honor the marriage bed and keep it sacred. And the language there is don't do anything that would rob it of force and vigor, would rob it of life.
And I think sometimes saying no actually protects the life force of a sexual relationship. I radically disagree with anybody who says you should never say no. I think the no's become really important in protecting it.
Laura Dugger: That's great to hear. Thank you for sharing that. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Let's say that a married couple used to experience more spark. What are some ways that they can begin to reignite their love connection? [00:23:30]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: So I love that Christ actually gives us the answer to that question. He is identifying himself as the groom in Revelation, and He's talking to his bride. And He's talking at one point to the church at Sardis, so his bride, and he says, "Man, I am so appreciative you've stayed committed to me. You've persevered. You stuck out your commitment even when it was really difficult to do so, even when there was a cost in doing so." So basically he's saying, Well done for staying committed. We're married, and you've hung in there, even when it was tough.
But then he says, "But I hold this against you. You have forsaken that first love. You've given up on the passion of love that we had to start with." And I hear so many couples come in and saying that. Okay, we're still married, but we've lost that passionate love. Where did it go, and how do we get it back?
And Christ looks at his bride, and he says, "Remember the heights from which you've fallen. Repent, and go do those things again." [00:24:36] So the recipe He gives us is quite simple. Remember, repent, and do. Remember what you did to fall in love with each other.
So I was sitting across from a couple, and they were complaining about kind of falling out of love. And I'm listening to their story, and I said, "I'm really curious. How did you guys fall in love?" And they're like, "We just fell in love." "Yeah, but what did you do? What were you doing when you fell in love?" And the spark comes into their eyes, and they start talking about hiking together. And that's how they met. And all through dating life, they spent a lot of time hiking and they enjoyed. He says, "See, I used to enjoy following her up the hill." And he said, "We'd be playful, and we loved finding the trails that we wanted to go on and planning it out."
And just watching them talking about it, it's like they came alive a little bit. And I said, "When's the last time you guys went hiking?" And the energy in the room drops a bit, and they sit there for a few seconds, and he said, "Wow, I don't think we've been hiking since before we got married." That somehow during their dating life, that was a central part of them being in love with each other. [00:25:42]
But from the moment of the wedding on they've been so busy building a home and building a career and carving out a space in the world for their family that they've not been doing those things that caused them to fall in love with each other.
I think Christ is looking and saying, Remember what you did to fall in love and remember what you did when you were in that early love relationship. You wasted a lot of time together. You pursued each other. You talked all the time to each other. All of those things that you did to fall in love.
And he says, Repent. You've not been doing it. You need to turn things around. You've gotten distracted into doing other well-meaning things but you've stopped doing the things that helped you to fall in love. You stopped pursuing each other. You stopped hiking. Go back and do those things again. So his third step is do them. Go back and do those things again. [00:26:37]
Usually when couples start to really unpack how did we fall in love? What were our attitudes? What were our stances? What were the behaviors, the activities that we did that helped me to go, Oh, I really like you. This kind of person I could spend the rest of my life with and enjoy it. Repent that you've gotten out of the habit of doing those and go back and do them again.
Laura Dugger: I love that. What are a few common questions both males and females ask during sex therapy? And then what are some of your responses from that point forward?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: The most common question is what we do normal. Am I normal? Am I okay? That changes a little bit depending on the individual, obviously, and the issue that's bringing them into therapy. But probably the most common question is is our level of desire normal? 80% of the time the husband is a higher drive individual and 20% of the time the wife is a higher-drive individual. [00:27:38]
So it shifts up a little bit depending on who the high drive is. But they'll often come in and say is our desire normal? And the low-desire person will often say I don't have any desire. Is that normal? Is it okay? I feel like I'm broken. And my first statement to them is, Why are you in my office? And they're like, Well, because I don't have any desire. But what are you hoping for in being in my office? Well, I want to have the desire for sex. But that's desire. That you want to want is wanting.
Often they diminish the type of desire, the type of want that they have. The only desire that's legitimate is the kind of desire I had when I was 16 and horning all the time. Well, I'm sorry, you've got three little kids now. That is not normal to have that. There are some people that have that type of desire. But for most women, especially with little kids at home, they no longer have that type of desire. [00:28:37]
And so what's normal is, Man, I'd really like to want and I choose to move forward, and I hope for the day that I do. Well, that's normal. So helping them to embrace where they're at as normal. Guys asking, you know, How long is too long? Or how long is not enough? Or what frequency is normal is one of the more common, normal kind of questions.
And for that one, it's helping couples to sort through, Well, what would be normal for them? Because I have couples in my office that have sex once a day and really enjoy it. And I have couples that have sex once every four to six weeks and really enjoy it. And both are normal, healthy couples. So what's normal for them? What do they want it to be? What would they be proud of?
I think the second question that I get is, Can we? Can we do this as a couple? Does this work as couples? Again, some of it's going to be very individualized. As a couple sorts through what do they want their relationship to look like, what are their own personal preferences, what helps their heart to feel cared for, what has meaning from their background and tradition, my task is to help them unpack what it means to them. [00:29:49]
But a couple who is really good at communication and is curious about each other can do that on their own. Where if she says, "I don't enjoy that position," really? But I really like that position. Okay, if he moves into a, you have to like what I like, you have to do what I want, they start to tear at the relationship. But if he can say, well, what don't you like about it? Help me to understand, they may be able to problem solve a way that it works.
Or she might go, you know, I'm not saying I don't ever want to do it. You know, every once in a while, I'll do it as a gift to you. But just know that's not a lot of pleasure for me. The pleasure for me is watching you enjoy it. And he has to be okay with that. If they're really talking about it, they can unpack for themselves, is this okay for us to do or not do?
Laura Dugger: That's good. That's very helpful to hear.
Some of you have reached out to find specific books or resources that we have mentioned in one of our episodes. That's why I'm so excited to let you know about our new "Resources" tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can now click on our new tab called Resources. There you will find all the resources we've ever mentioned on all the episodes of The Savvy Sauce. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you actually support our work at The Savvy Sauce.
We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode, so you can still access the websites, scripture, and recommended resources when you click on any individual episode. We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned. [00:31:24]
What about a more serious question? For someone who's experienced trauma, what hope do you have to offer them?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I guess two levels of it. One would be just from a scientific therapeutic theory technique, we're getting really good at helping people who have wounds in various areas of their life, especially in the sexual arena, to learn how to heal that and to reclaim those parts of their life.
At a second level, as a Christian therapist, as a pastor, my God is really powerful in His healing ability. He can take the worst trash pits and make them the most gorgeous rose gardens. I love watching in my office as couples truly step in. They lean into it and they decide, you know what, I'm not going to allow the trauma to have control over this part of my relationship. I'm not going to allow the trauma to have control over this part of my life. I'm not going to allow what somebody did to me maybe decades ago, but years ago or months ago to control me today and to take away something that is rich and precious. [00:32:36]
We might not always be able to get rid of all the scars, but we can learn, even with a wound, to really reclaim our arm or our leg or some part of our body that's been traumatized and learn how to work well with it anyways. That's no different for the sexual part of our relationship. There may be a scar there, but that doesn't have to fully limit my ability to truly drink it in, to enjoy it, and to reclaim our sexuality is something that I share with my spouse and it becomes rich and good.
So the invitation would be don't let what happened to you in the past control you today. Get some help and get it with somebody who truly knows what they're doing to step in and find some healing and restoration.
Laura Dugger: It's so good. And I can't imagine the person listening right now that says, that's me and you just gave me hope. So thank you for that.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: And that's critical if you have hope all the way through it. And when it dips, it's okay. Climb back in and keep working on it because it is difficult. [00:33:48] Wounds to the sexual part of our relationship are intense wounds. So sometimes they take a very long time to heal.
Laura Dugger: But if they have somebody in their area, somebody like you that's been trained in this, that is gentle and will help work with them, that would be incredible.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh, it makes a world of difference. Yes. Having a guide and a cheerleader really helps.
Laura Dugger: Now speaking more about the general population, what's one thing that each spouse can do today to improve their intimate connection?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think what I'd invite, because our sexuality is so much of what happens between us, you know, it is about pursuing what's good for me and what's good for you, but it's also what's good between us, is I'd invite them to do something together.
What I'd invite them to do together is pick a good book on marital sexuality. I have some listed on my website that I highly recommend, but there's just a lot of really good ones out there. My only caution is to choose somebody who's truly trained in sexuality. [00:34:54] Lots of people are writing books on sex because it makes a lot of money. They're filled with a lot of inaccuracies. Choosing somebody who's been trained on sexuality and has written on it, and then sit down and read it out loud to each other.
So pick a time that the kids aren't going to be around or they can be alone and just open up the book and take turns reading. The goal is not to get to the end of the book. The goal is to read a paragraph or two and pause and say, so what do you think? I think this guy's crazy. Nobody thinks that way. Nobody likes that. What do you mean you like that? And just really use it to start a conversation.
Because sex is a form of communication, stepping back and communicating about it, developing a language that they can use with each other, sorting through what they do and don't like, is often done easier with a guide. So use the book as the guide to talk about what do we like, what don't we like, what is our vision for sexuality. [00:35:58]
You know, if they can't find time to sit down and read a book and talk about it, they don't have time to have good sex, so they may have to problem-solve the time. If every time they sit down to read a book together, one of them is falling asleep, well, then we may need to problem-solve the sleep crisis in our marriage. Because if we don't solve that, we can't have good sex. If every time we sit down to read, the kids are climbing in, okay, we need to problem-solve that.
Whatever they run into is going to illustrate the problem that they're likely running into in their sexual relationship. So not only are they learning, not only are they communicating, they're also problem-solving the process. I think it's a quick, simple, but very powerful exercise.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We will definitely link to your website in the show notes. But could you just say what that website is?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. IntimateMarriage.org. And most of the things I've talked about are under the Try This at Home section. And there's just several things that we invite couples to try at home, but it's IntimateMarriage.org. [00:36:59]
Laura Dugger: And will you just share with all of us how you can help any listener grow further in this area of sexual intimacy?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: In terms of those that are in the area, of course, we have about eight different therapists that work out of our office that are all trained in this. Outside of our area, we do workshops, seminars. And so if they join our email list, they'll learn when I'm coming into an area.
The Passionate Intimacy Workshop is a Friday evening, all day Saturday, and it's a sexual enrichment for Christian couples. So they come in and we talk through the spiritual principles and we help couples to grow in this arena.
The most common thing I hear as couples come out of it is, we're normal, we're okay. And they come out with a vision that's workable and nobody feels broken and nobody feels beaten up or braided. It's designed to truly help them to grow. [00:37:54]
If they want, all of that's available as a downloadable workshop too. So the links are on our website and they can go purchase the workshop and download the printed materials and the exercises and just sit in the safety, security and comfort of their own home and work through the teaching. I love that because they can pause it at any time they want and talk about it. But those are available for couples that just really want to focus in and work on this part of their marriage relationship.
Laura Dugger: That's great. So if you're local to Atlanta, Georgia, you're very blessed and you could schedule an appointment with Dr. Michael Sytsma. But also, it sounds like you've got something for everybody if they want to grow. Plenty of resources available.
Well, as we're wrapping up today, we are called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge or discernment, and we would love to hear some of your insight from your own life to inspire us with our own action item. So, Dr. Mike, as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:38:58]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: For me, it's stay curious. We have different stances that we can take in life. We have a critical stance. We have a defensive stance. We have that father type of a stance or boss type of a stance. What does it take to stay curious, to be open, to hearing somebody else's story and somebody else's heart, and to truly deeply care for them?
I think we have to stay curious. It's always leaning in and really tell me more about that. How do you think that way? How does that work for you? If we stay curious, it helps us to love well, it helps others to feel nurtured and cared for. It's a richer way to live when you stay in a curious state.
Laura Dugger: Great words of wisdom to end our show today. Thank you again for the years of service you've put in. This is such an important topic, and I love your approach and your patience and your gentle presence. And I just want to say thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks, Laura. [00:39:56]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:41:01]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:42:02]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:43:00]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.