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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Dec 02, 2019
Monday Dec 02, 2019
Top Ten from 2018: 10. Being intentional with our health, finances, and relationships with business leader, writer, and speaker, Elizabeth Dixon
Proverbs 11:25 NIV “A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.”
*Update Since Initial Release* Elizabeth Dixon is currently the Principal Leader of Service & Hospitality Strategy at Corporate Chick-fil-A Inc. in Atlanta, Georgia. Elizabeth previously started the Chick-fil-A Wellness Program, has started several small businesses and travels across the world as a gifted writer and speaker. She is a devoted wife to John and mother of two young children. She is savvy in countless ways, she is intentional, and she desires to help others excel in their life’s purpose!
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.comand affiliated sites.
Connect with Elizabeth on Social Media Here!
Zack Williams Old Church Choir
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Nov 25, 2019
Monday Nov 25, 2019
Ideas for Spreading Generosity with Courtney DeFeo
Deuteronomy 5:32-33 (NIV) “So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. Walk in all the way that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.”
Courtney DeFeo left her corporate career to work as a mom, homemaker, and business owner. She published a book “In This House, We Will Giggle” among many other initiatives, such as speaking, podcasting, and running her business called “Lil Light O’ Mine.” Courtney is now living in Dallas, TX with her husband Ron and their two wildly creative and sweet girls.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Courtney’s Blog Post about Questions About Heritage of Faith
Courtney’s ABC Scripture Cards
Courtney’s Virtue Memory Cards
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Nov 18, 2019
Monday Nov 18, 2019
83. Miracles of God with Founder of Midwest Food Bank, David Kieser
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 19:17 (ESV) “Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.”
David Kieser was raised in central Illinois and has been the President of Bloomingdale Farms for 30 years. He is active in his church, having served as trustee, junior high and high school Bible class teacher. David founded Midwest Food Bank in 2003, distributing donated food from the family farm with his brothers. He is currently the President and Chief Executive Officer of MFT. Married to Wilma for 42 years, David has six married children and 24 grandchildren.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
For more information on volunteer needs or ways to get involved, please visit Midwest Food Bank
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.
David Kieser is my guest today, and he is the founder and president of Midwest Food Bank, which is a faith-based organization. Their mission is to share the love of Christ by alleviating hunger and malnutrition locally and throughout the world, and providing disaster relief, all without discrimination.
David's going to share story after story today of God's leading faithfulness and miracles, and I pray that it stretches our faith through listening and inspires all of us to action. [00:01:21]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, David.
David Kieser: Thank you for having me, Laura. Appreciate being here.
Laura Dugger: So glad to have you join us. Will you just start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself?
David Kieser: Yeah. Married to my wife, Wilma, for 43 years. We have six children together and 24 grandchildren. Basically, my career growing up was farming, so I have a background in farming, but God changed that in 2005 when I got more involved with the Food Bank. That's basically where we've been.
Laura Dugger: Well, there's so many incredible parts to that story. 24 grandkids, that's pretty impressive.
David Kieser: It is.
Laura Dugger: But for a long time, you've had a heart to feed the hungry. So, where did that heart to feed the hungry come from?
David Kieser: I have to give my parents credit, I guess, for the start of that. My mom and dad were generous people. I can remember a time back when I was about seven years old, we moved from Mackinac, Illinois to Bloomington, Illinois in 1961. And I can remember a year or two after we moved over there, my mother was bringing too many groceries home. She would put the groceries away that she had bought for our family, and then she would load some extra groceries in this little red wagon and she'd ask me to take it down the road and up this dirt lane and share them with the neighbor there. [00:02:44]
What it was, mom wasn't buying too many groceries, but we had a neighbor that had eight children. It was nine of us and eight of them. And mom and dad seeing that they had a need, and so they just simply filled that need. Maybe more by their actions and by their telling us was probably what I learned early on in life.
Then as time went on, the Food Bank original start in 2003, which is 16 years ago, we've seen a little article in a Pantograph, which is our local paper, and they were asking for help. There was 10 non-profit agencies asking for help to keep their pantry shelves with food so they could feed families that were in need.
So we responded to that article, never intended for it to go any more than that, and here we are 16 years later with a God that's bigger than the whole universe doing things through people that are pretty small. But He has blessed that effort very much.
Laura Dugger: I can't wait to unpack it more and hear all of these incredible stories. But just to catch listeners up, you and my dad go way back. Listeners may remember my dad from Episode 27, which aired about a year ago. [00:03:51] But my dad is on the board of directors for Midwest Food Bank. I heard from him, you started on your farm and that your first expansion came about because of Hurricane Katrina. So can you tell us more about that?
David Kieser: Yes. That was an interesting endeavor, I guess I'll say. We were doing well at the farm, serving our local agencies. 2005 is when Katrina hit the Gulf Coast. And by now we had probably 60 or 70 agencies coming to the farm to pick up locally.
The reason we responded to the Katrina need was on TV we've seen 1-800 Red Cross, 1-800 cell arm, please help. And it was enough times on the TV that you could tell this was something unusual. At that point, I didn't know and most of us didn't know that that was the biggest natural disaster the United States had ever had. Over 1,800 people were killed and thousands and thousands were displaced. [00:04:51]
So we decided as a board that we could take a semi-load of food down. And so we loaded up a semi-load. We had a reefer trailer, refrigerated trailer. My wife and I headed down to Hattiesburg, Mississippi. But prior to getting to Hattiesburg, I pulled off at a gas station just to try to get a landline call made because the cell towers were down.
When I pulled into this gas station, I told my wife, something didn't seem right. I said, it just seems like there's cars sitting all over the gas station, but there's nobody at the pump. So, when I got out of the truck to go into the gas station, people started getting out of their cars and walking towards our semi.
What I didn't realize was these were people that had actually evacuated and they had driven this far. We were probably at least four hours away from the coast yet. But they were sitting in a parking lot with their cars out of gas and the gas station out of gas so they could go nowhere. The only transportation they had was their legs. [00:05:50]
Two ladies walked over to me at first and they sighed when they put their arms around me. And I could tell it was a sigh of distress. And they said, "Are you here to help us?" And I said, "I'm here to help whatever I can. This was not my final destination, but what do you need?" And they just explained to me that they had gotten stranded there without gas.
So I opened the back of the semi. It was a reefer trailer. And many of the people in the cars, in fact, all of the people in the vehicle started coming over behind the truck. And they were just trying to cool themselves with the air that was coming out of the back of the truck and then getting water and some food that we had.
I just realized at that moment that there was something bigger ahead of us because what happened at that moment was what reminded me of my dad driving a tractor with a hay rack on a snowy day in a pasture and I'd be kicking off hay to the cows. They'd come to the hay because that was the only source of food they had or drink. It made me realize that these people were in desperate need.
So, after giving them everything they needed at the time, we closed up our doors, we made our call, and headed into Hattiesburg, only to be more persuaded by God's Spirit that there was more work to do. [00:07:00] There was more people hurting much worse than the ones we'd already seen.
And so, we unloaded that first load. It was late at night. Planned on going back and starting to farm. I had no idea what was ahead of us. But when I was there unloading that load at the Salvation Army in Hattiesburg, I'd seen people getting out of 15-passenger vans crying, holding a pillow or some item that they brought with them. That's all they had. That's all they had saved or got to keep from the storm.
When we got done with the load, the Salvation Army brothers that were standing around this generator, it was a generator with a light there about 12 chairs and the majors and the captains were talking about the next day and this was pitch dark at night. So I stayed there with them for a little bit with my wife and then I told them I needed to get to the truck so I could go home and start farming. They said, "Well, let's pray together." So we prayed together.
And as I left that circle, one of the men followed me and he said, "David, we want you to bring back 10 more similar loads of food." And I said, "I will," without even hesitating, with the knowledge that we didn't even have 10 loads of food in our warehouse. [00:08:07]
That was an experience that I think was the beginning of an exit for myself as far as our farming operation, our family operation, and the future of Midwest Food Bank. I look back now and I see how God started to take me away from the farming and really to start to build on that.
But I want to just share a couple more stories or at least one more story on the third semi-load that we took to Biloxi. So we went home with that first one, reloaded, went back. Third one, they asked us to go into Biloxi. So that was right where all the damage had been done.
And I was about two or three miles maybe from getting there and I didn't know exactly because I'd road signs were down and you have much to go by. But there was a state trooper there. And I stopped to ask him, I said, "How much further do we have to go?" And he said, "Your nose will tell you." Again, impacting memory that I've got.
And he was right. When we got to Biloxi, it was a very sad state of affairs. If you would have videoed what we were seeing, you couldn't have got the smell. The stench was horrible. [00:09:10] I pulled up to the first brick building that had actually survived the storm, and there was some reefer trailers backed up to this building, refrigerated trailers.
I assumed that that's where the Salvation Army wanted me to go, and so I walked over to some state troopers that were standing there, asked them if that was the right place, and they were very sober. And they replied to me, "No sir, these trailers have bodies and I'm waiting for identification." So bodies had been picked up, marked where they were picked up at, and they were put in the refrigeration. So again, a very stark, impacting comment and reality.
They told me where the place was to unload the food. So we drove a few blocks to the south and a few blocks to the east, and there was a parking lot that had been cleared off. There was no warehouse. There was a man standing, a pastor on top of four pallets, so he was above the crowd that was waiting for help, told us where to pull into.
I observed the line of people waiting for help that morning. It was a Sunday morning, and the line of people waiting was seven city blocks long, four people wide. And it was in the morning, but it was still very, very humid and very hot. [00:10:15] And these people were just waiting for help.
So again, it's just... Anybody that would have been in our situation would have responded similar. And that is to try to help these folks that were hurting so bad.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Those stories are incredible. And even so backing it up, you said yes to 10 more loads of food knowing you didn't have that much food to bring. It sounds like God did provide. Is that right?
David Kieser: That's correct. You just make me think of another story. And that was on Labor Day weekend. So we were coming home, I'm thinking it was maybe the fourth or fifth load that we were coming back from, and my wife had three cell phones because the towers were so scarce that we tried to get different phones so we could get different communications at different parts of the trip down and back.
And I remember it was 11 o'clock at night and one of the phones rang and she answered it. On this trip back I was wondering where the next loads were going to come from. [00:11:13] But on that particular night, God chose to have somebody call me from Morton, Illinois. He was sharing with me that after church that Sunday, they had actually asked this congregation that was interested in helping Midwest Food Bank help those in Katrina they should stay after church and they would have a meeting.
So they met in a Sunday school room. He said there was over 100 people that stayed. They made out a plan that on Monday, Labor Day, they would try to gather up as much food as they could and take it to a warehouse here in Morton. They would shrink-wrap it, pelletize it, shrink-wrap it, and have it ready for the Food Bank over in Bloomington.
This was Sunday night, not Monday night, that he called me and he said they had already had over two semi-loads of food gathered up and they were taking it to the warehouse. And it just struck me when I hung up. I was so taken back. I was so humbled by that, that God would say to me, "David, your job is to drive the truck. I'll take care of the other things that you can't take care of." [00:12:14]
It had to be things like that to keep us involved and keep us tracking in the right direction. Because I couldn't at this point walk away from this situation and think about farming back in Illinois when so many things were happening and God was just opening doors and sharing His presence with us because He knew we needed it. He knew that we were too weak to know what the future held So it's stories like that that I just have to say that gave us the courage to keep moving forward.
Laura Dugger: Speaking of the farm, how did you make that decision to move from the farm into town?
David Kieser: Well, that's interesting. When we started in the first two-car garage, that was not a big decision. That was a decision, but our family could make that fairly easily. Then when we outgrew the first location or the first building, we moved into a second warehouse on our farm. And that wasn't too bad. We took our machinery out of the warehouse, parked it in God's warehouse outside, poured a concrete floor, put heat in the floor, and we put air conditioning in the building, so it was a temperature-controlled warehouse. [00:13:16]
And we thought that would work forever, but it didn't. In 2005, I think we were up to maybe 75 agencies, and now we're doing work disaster relief that we could tell by now that that was going to be significant. It was not going to just be a couple weeks.
So we've been praying about looking and about moving. Found a building in Bloomington, but it was $1.2 million. We had never raised funds like that before. We had never been exposed to that type of situation. So I felt like it was very needful to try to help the people that we were serving better.
So the people that were coming to our farm to pick up food to agencies, they were waiting four hours in line to get service. And I just felt like if we were a for-profit company, we would not make our customers wait that long. So we should try to address that. But still it was a struggle because of the funds that it took to move.
I remember one loadout day I went to every vehicle that came to pick up food and asked them if they'd pray for us that we could make the right decision. [00:14:21] I just knew that they were part of us and that God could work through them as well as us and together maybe we could find an answer of going for sure or not.
And I'll never forget when I came upon this old rusty conversion van from Decatur, Illinois, and a single lady sitting inside in the driver's seat, and I started to ask her if she would pray for us so we'd know if we should go or if we shouldn't. And without hesitation, just like the snap of a finger she said to me, "David, he owns the cattle in a thousand hills. Go, trust Him."
That was so impacting to me. I'll never forget it. She could have took the door of her van and opened it and hit me in the stomach and it wouldn't have been as much of an impact as what she told me. There was a lady that had nothing, nothing, and she was coming to Midwest Food Bank with a vehicle that was barely roadworthy to pick up food for people that had nothing. And I just felt like God had such a tremendous, powerful way to say, "David, and the rest of you, go forward. I've just told you through this lady." And it did. It made the decision for us. [00:15:21]
That night, the board had a discussion. I recommended that we follow going forward, and God blessed that. It didn't take very long at all, and we had over $600,000 pledged to the warehouse if we would buy it. Again I'll never forget that verse Psalm 50:10, like I said, He owns a cattle... He owns everything. And if it's all His, then all we're doing is just trying to use it for His glory.
Laura Dugger: That is so incredible. And it just sounds like God was already working and moving in these ways and you were just able to join in to what He was already doing. And He provided the right people at the right time. So I'm just going to let you continue with these amazing stories that really only God could have orchestrated. Are there any others that come to mind?
David Kieser: Well, there's definitely others. I'll share a couple more. One significant one was later on, now this is around Thanksgiving time when we're still hauling back and forth. I should just mention maybe before we're too far along here, that the 10 loads that they requested were taken down and delivered. [00:16:29] But we didn't feel like that was the end of our commitment or our journey.
So as we continued to serve, it took about a year and a half, and they were still asking for food. But during that year and a half, we ended up taking down 160 plus semi-loads of food and supplies. So God is so much bigger, so much bigger. And out of a terrible disaster, He still showed Himself so amazingly through the things that He did to help us do that.
One of the drivers from one of the loads that went down was Todd Feller. He lived in Valparaiso, Indiana. Again, such an inspiration to me to see how people would just pitch in and help. He drove three and a half hours from Valparaiso or four to come over to Bloomington to get in the truck to take it down and bring it back and then go back home again. So a committed driver. He was in his late 60s, maybe early 70s.
I can remember it was on a Saturday, He had taken the load down to Biloxi and unloaded it to the warehouse, and he was asked if he could bring a load back. [00:17:29] Why would you bring a load back if you were hauling food down? The reason why was because some of these companies now were donating semi-loads of canned fruit, semi-loads of beans, or semi-loads of canned vegetables. They weren't ready in boxes of a variety of things. They were just full semi-loads of one product.
We needed those in Bloomington to build our boxes. So what the Salvation Army asked was, would you please take these back with you, backhaul them to Bloomington, use them in your supplies, and bring them back when they're in the right arrangements in the boxes for the families? And that would be something we definitely wanted to do. Had plenty of volunteers wanting to do it.
So Todd said yes. They loaded him up with the load. And Todd was a very experienced driver. He weighed himself at a CAT scale. It's a place where you can weigh your truck for a couple dollars, you can pay to get your scale weight. And he noticed that he was overweight. He was over 80,000 pounds. In fact, he was about 84,000 pounds. [00:18:25]
Well, at that time, this disaster was so bad that the federal government had lifted the 80,000-pound weight limit for disaster loads to 100,000. So they waived the 80,000 and you could legally take 100,000 if you were doing disaster relief. That was helpful because you didn't have to worry about being a little bit overweight and getting a ticket.
So when he was overweight, but he was coming back, he was concerned. So he called me to ask me if he should bring it back or not. And I told him, yes, because it's disaster relief, they'll recognize that the same as if we would be going the other way. That evening, I got a phone call, and he was sitting in Tennessee at a weigh station, and they would not let him go through. And I was surprised at that.
I asked him while he was talking on his phone if he could let me talk to the scale master, and the scale master said, "I can't talk on that phone. I'm not allowed to do that." So I ended up having to call him back at the weigh station to talk to the scale master. [00:19:26]
And I tried to explain to him that we were hauling disaster relief both ways. And he said, "Well, that's fine, sir. I appreciate you doing that." But he said, "We just found out that they've lifted the waiver and we're back to 80,000 pounds." Well, at that point I knew we were wrong because if they had lifted the waiver and I didn't know it or we didn't know it, then it was our fault.
So now my next challenge was how are we going to get 4,000 pounds off a Todd Feller semi-sitting at a weigh station Saturday night. It seemed like a horrible situation. But a lot of times when those situations present themselves, you go to prayer and ask God to give you an answer or help us through it.
And it was interesting because I thought maybe I'd find a record service to come out there and just take the extra food. I could pay him to take it. But the Waymaster would not give me the name of a record service. He said, "We cannot do that because that's preferential treatment."
I was finally able to convince him to at least give me a number. [00:20:27] I called the first guy and he said, "I'm busy right now, I can't do it. Here's my buddy's phone number." So I called him, he said, "I'm kind of busy too." So he said, "Why don't you call the 8th Street Mission?" And I said, "Hey, I'd love to.” Got a number, and he said, Yeah.
So, he gave me a phone number to the 8th Street Mission. I called them. Again, this was Saturday evening. I told them the dilemma that we were in, and the guy seemed pretty surprised and pretty excited. He said, "Just wait a few minutes." He said," Our pastor will call you right back." He said, "We're just finishing up our service here tonight."
So, waited a few minutes, the pastor called me back. He said, "David, the night in our mission here, our whole evening was around encouraging each other to try to double our can drive before Thanksgiving." And he said, "We've got 3,000 pounds of canned food, and we were hoping to get up to 6,000. Well, we had 4,000, plus there are 3,000, we'll give him 7,000."
And he said he knew where the scale was, he would get some pickup trucks and he'd go out there with his men. [00:21:29] It turned out to be a very, very blessed night. And who knew that morning when we were loading and overloading the truck, coming to Tennessee and finding out we're overloaded, thinking that we had a dilemma, all of that was answered prayer. God had somebody in Tennessee that needed food and we were able to let the people at the mission see how God works through prayer, His faithfulness when we trust Him.
So it was just another one of those situations that you can't hardly I don't want to say believe that it happens, because you have to believe everything that God does. He can do anything. But it was amazing to see how God unraveled that whole situation. Todd Feller ended up getting pizza for all the guys that came out there. They had a little party after they got done. It turned out to be just a blessed story and a blessed situation.
Laura Dugger: That's just another miracle of God working. I just love hearing how he personally met all of these needs and these prayer requests. [00:22:30]
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Laura Dugger: Are there any other stories that you can think of?
David Kieser: Well, I guess I would say that there's been times when we were expanding the Food Bank so that we would find out that somebody wanted to have a food bank. Maybe I'll use Indianapolis as a reference. There was some businessmen that came over to Bloomington and they'd seen what we were doing and wanted to know if we could maybe have one in Indianapolis.
Again, looking back, the decisions look like they should have been easy to make. But when you're at the moment in time, when you make a decision and you're looking forward, I'm the kind of guy that really needs to have God tell me directly, yes, do it or not do it. [00:24:34] Kind of like the lady in the van, that kind of experience.
So, we had had a couple meetings with the Indianapolis team and even had someone from Indianapolis that was willing to donate a building, which was a huge part of expansion. Still, we weren't quite sure if we should move ahead and grow that much or if we shouldn't.
I remember the last meeting we had with this group was on a Wednesday and the following Saturday I was working at the food bank in Bloomington when the front door opened up and somebody walked in. It was Jim Gapinski, one of the men from Indianapolis with his wife. And I was like, "Why would you drive two and a half hours without calling? I'm not even usually here on a Saturday." And he said, "Well, I just wanted my wife Rose to see what I've been seeing and feel what I've been feeling about the food bank. So we just drove over mostly to look through the windows and just let her see the place from the outside."
I said, "Well, that's great." I said, "Well, if you're here, I'll be glad to give you a tour." So I gave him and his wife a tour. [00:25:35] Got back out to the front door about 40 minutes later. We knew we were still struggling with whether or not we're going to Indy. But they started leaving, they went through the double doors, and I started going back to my office and I noticed he turned and came back in. And he said, "David, we didn't pray." I said, "You know what, you're right, Jim. We always pray when we're together, making decisions like this."
So the three of us held hands. I asked Jim to pray. And during his prayer, he said, "God, you know this is something that we want to do, but we want to make sure that it's with your blessing." He said, "Help us to trust you. You own the cattle on a thousand hills." I immediately broke down. Broke down meaning I started bawling. I just was so touched that God would be so faithful that at that moment in time on a Saturday night when I wasn't supposed to be there, they came in and they left. They already went through the double doors, went and prayed. They came back in and God was still able to reveal Himself and say, "Move ahead. I'm blessing your efforts." [00:26:36] Because he quoted the same scripture, Psalm 50:10, and he had no idea that's what we moved to Bloomington on.
When I got done praying, he asked me what was wrong, and I said, "You can go back and tell your people we're coming to Indianapolis because this is a sign that I have to take seriously, we all have to take seriously, that God wants us to trust Him." So here we are, quite a few warehouses later, and Indianapolis is doing great. So thankfully that God is so faithful to us during those times.
Laura Dugger: Wow, praise God for that and that his scripture is living, it's alive, and that He used it two different times, that same passage to speak two different next steps to you. I'm vaguely remembering some more scripture that was really impactful that had to do with a story in Africa.
David Kieser: As we expanded, Africa became a target point. It pulled on us, it tugged on us enough that Denny Mott, Ralph Endress, and a few others of us went over there and we started an operation over there. [00:27:43] Sometime later, after we got started over there and we were operating over there, we had a flight that Denny Mott and Ralph was on that went from Chicago to London and London to Nairobi. And each of those legs are about nine hours. So if you're visiting with somebody, you have a chance to share some things back and forth.
Well, it turns out that Denny Mott was sitting next to Mildred, a lady that came from Africa, got her schooling here in the States, had a burden on her heart to go back and help her people. And Mildred was sharing with Denny that she was starting a crocodile farm in Malindi, which is not too far out in Nairobi. She was only going to use the skins of these crocodiles, in fact just the soft belly skin.
And so as they talked back and forth, she was using these soft belly skins of the crocodiles to make luxury handbags for ladies. When I say luxury, I mean this was real luxury. It was $25,000 to $75,000 per bag. But she did not have a need for the meat. [00:28:47]
Well one of the things we need the most, or very badly in those kind of places, Africa, Haiti, is protein. And crocodile meat would be a great protein. So when she was listening to Denny what we do, and she said, "I will donate the crocodile carcasses to Midwest Food Bank.
They ended up visiting enough that we had another meeting after that. It got to the point where we both felt comfortable moving ahead with this. So we ended up building a crocodile processing facility in Malindi on the crocodile farm. And what's so incredible is there's hundreds of thousands of children that are living in the slums in Nairobi and around in that area. And there's millions of crocodiles in the Nile and the tributaries of the Nile River. And to see that God would bring those two things together for the sake of those suffering kids, that they can have something that would help them learn because a child needs a protein from conception to about eight years is when the brain is developing. And if they don't get enough protein, their body starves the brain and they become mentally stunted and then physically stunted. [00:29:57] So this has just been an amazing, amazing possibility.
When I grew up, my mom and dad… we lived in a farm. We butchered cows and pigs and chickens and ducks, but never did I think we'd butcher crocodiles. It was interesting to see that that would come into play.
Laura Dugger: And it sounds like that's been such a blessing.
David Kieser: Yeah, it makes me think of the time when I was in Africa, too, that with all these different things happening, we meet a lot of people over there, faithful people, Christian people. I can remember the one time a lady told me she was so thankful that we were coming from another country to help her people, so grateful that we were there.
And she made a comment to me. She said, David, never underestimate the power of the Holy One of Israel. And she paused and looking straight in my eyes she said, "And don't ever touch the glory." And I just thought, "Wow, if we can really truly do that, always give Him the glory for everything He does, then we can live expectantly that great things will continue to happen. [00:31:00] That's what He asked of us to do.
And I have to say, I was recently also reminded of the word faith, F-A-I-T-H. Fantastic Adventure In Trusting Him. And that's really what it turns out to be. It's a fantastic adventure if we can just trust Him when He provides whatever the need is that we try to meet, then give Him the glory and expect something else great to happen.
Those are some times that I have to tell you that over and over, It's these kind of things. I'm telling them as a story now, but they happened in real-time when they were happening. And you need those kind of Ebeneezers to go back and say, God was here, God was here, He was here, and it helps us to build off of that.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I think it's encouraging for everyone's faith to have these stories shared.
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And I know that volunteers are a huge part of your operation. So how did you get so many volunteers?
David Kieser: Well, Laura, that's an interesting question and an interesting part of Midwest Food Bank. I remember when we were in our first building in Bloomington. So we moved off the farm and got to Bloomington. And we didn't know how much money we would get, how many volunteers, how much food. It was all a step of faith.
I can remember people asking me, "How can you get so many people coming in here to help, to volunteer?" And I said, I can't get people to come in here to help volunteer. If the Spirit touches their heart to make them want to volunteer, I can't keep them out. [00:33:16]
I really have to say that that's what I've experienced at the Food Bank is. It's an amazing group of people. We have over 100 semi-drivers in Bloomington alone that we're willing to help. And our ratio of volunteers to staff... so for every staff member we have nationwide, we have 700 volunteers. So it's a 1 to 700 ratio.
And I just have to say that recently we were going through the numbers. If the volunteers would not be there, if tomorrow they did not all show-up, we would have to hire approximately 100 plus, maybe 120, full-time staff to take that place of those volunteers.
When you talk about volunteers, I drove in here in Morton at the Food Bank where we're at tonight, and on my way in, out in the yard, in front, the grass area, there's a dedicated gentleman picking up the grass clippings. Now, I'm sure he's got a yard at home too and he's probably taking care of it, but he sees the time and the necessity to keep this grass area in front of the building neat and clean. [00:34:20]
So over and over we are so blessed, so blessed with so many different volunteers. We have volunteers paying the bills in some situations, we have the semi-drivers, we have electricians. It's just God's family is an amazing family. And I have to say, whoever hears this right now, if you're a volunteer, God bless you. God bless you. And if you're not, whether you volunteer at Midwest Food Bank or someplace else, I just would encourage you to consider that.
There's a scripture that I just love it. It's Proverbs 19:17. I didn't even know it existed until about two years ago I ran across it. And it says, He who helps those in need lendeth to the Lord and the Lord will repay. You know, none of us really want to be repaid for volunteerism, for helping somebody else, but what that verse tells me is that Jesus could fix all of what's wrong with the needs of the people by Himself with the snap of a finger, but He chose us to do it. He left that opportunity for us. [00:35:22]
And that He would encourage us by saying, if you help those that are hurting, they're equal to you. God sees them as equals. They're not second-class citizens. If you're willing to help them, then I'm going to bless you back. I just think that's a powerful and encouraging verse. I guess I would just encourage everyone to read that and think about the time you invest for somebody else, how Jesus looks at that.
Laura Dugger: I hope we all can cultivate more of an attitude of generosity. And if listeners do want to get more involved specifically with Midwest Food Bank, what are some needs that they can meet and where can they find out more online?
David Kieser: They can get midwestfoodbank.org at their website. I think that maybe we can share some phone numbers after we're done here. You can put them on the… podcast. But we can use all different types of skill sets. Just like I mentioned about the gentleman that was out in the yard here. [00:36:22]
Everything that it takes to run this business is touched by volunteers in some way, shape, or form. So again, I would just say that if anybody's interested, try to contact the local division that you're close to, and that would be on our website. All the different locations are on the website.
I can tell you of a situation in Bloomington where we have two state farm attorneys, it's a husband and wife, and they have been volunteering since we started on our farm. Once they found out what we were doing, they've stayed in touch and they have become volunteer team leaders. The wife now has taken a position on our board in Bloomington.
I am just so humbled by that, that God would bring people that are so skilled and so qualified and that He has already changed their heart to be a servant of His and He allows them to come to the food bank and take on such great responsibility. [00:37:19]
I guess I just have to say that I would just beg all the listeners to pray that Midwest Food Bank can stay true to its calling and mission so that many more who are food insecure and without hope can be served in the name of Jesus. I just feel like it's so important that we do that.
And it's important that our board and our leadership continues to keep humility as our... humility equals success. If we can stay humble, God will bless it.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. We will definitely link to that website in the show notes. I appreciate you saying ways that people can serve. It's just such a picture of the body of Christ that we all can bring something unique to the table.
Our listeners know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear your practical life tips. So as my final question for you today, David, what is your savvy sauce? [00:38:22]
David Kieser: I have to repeat the verse or the comment that the lady made to me in Africa. And that is: never underestimate the power of the Holy One of Israel and never touch the glory. I think that sums it up so well. Then secondly, humility equals success. And I'll finish by saying, and the volunteers that are so faithful by listening to what God is telling them and coming to the food bank and helping, there's prayers going up constantly to God for help. It may be a grandma, it may be an aunt, it's somebody caring for somebody. And when those prayers go up, God sends His Spirit down and touches our heart, and He wants us to respond to that need. So I think together we can joyfully look forward to the opportunity to continue to keep serving until Jesus comes back.
Laura Dugger: David, I just want to sincerely thank you for pausing today and reflecting back on God's goodness. You are a humble leader, and I think God received a lot of glory from your willingness to share all of these stories of Midwest Food Bank. [00:39:27] So thank you for joining us today.
David Kieser: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:40:30] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:41:30]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:42:36]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Nov 11, 2019
Monday Nov 11, 2019
82. Traveling With Your Family With Teacher, Wife, and Mother to 4, Katie Mueller
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 92:4 (ESV) “For you, O LORD, have made me glad by your work; at the works of your hands I sing for joy.”
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Audiobook: The Ultimate Road Trip: Family Vacation Collection Adventures in Odyssey
Laura’s Favorite Art Supplies For Travel With Kids:
Crayola Color Wonder Mess-Free Paintbrush Pens and Paper
Savita 3-d stickers to use with their own Personal Blank Book
Storage Clipboard stocked with Plain White Paper and Markers and Washi Tape
Melissa & Doug Reusable Puffy Sticker Play Set
Melissa & Doug Color Your Own Stickers
Katie’s Website Suggestions for Travel:
Family Vacation Critic Website
Katie’s Search Suggestions:
“9 Countries where US dollar is strongest”
“Tourist spots to go instead”
“13 Family vacations better than Disney World"
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian School
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Katie Mueller is my guest today. We've known each other our entire lives from growing up in the same small town. Prepare to be inspired to travel with your family after listening to this message, where she's going to vision cast and then problem-solve barriers that stand in the way of us choosing to prioritize memory-making with our families. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Katie.
Katie Mueller: Thanks. I'm so excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: Will you just start us off by telling us a little bit more about yourself?
Katie Mueller: Yeah. I grew up in a family. I had two sisters, and my mom was the travel guide in our house. [00:01:20] She made traveling an experience by always going somewhere new and seeing new parts of the United States and of the world.
And then my dad was... he played the part that was like the good sport who went along with whatever we did. If it was hiking, laying on the beach, he just did a great job of being up for anything. He liked traveling because we liked it.
Then I married about 14 years ago and my husband hadn't traveled as extensively as I had, but I knew how much I loved it as a girl and I really wanted to start making it a priority when we had children. Currently, we have four kids, they're ages 4 to 12, and our vacations are just starting to look a little bit different now that the kids are getting older. We know time goes fast and we can go farther without naps, pack and plays, all that stuff that kind of holds you back a little bit.
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting to hear their ages now. Has traveling always been a priority, like even when they were in diapers and doing nap schedules? Did you and your husband still take them? [00:02:27]
Katie Mueller: We did. I would say the difference was that it wasn't as far. We knew traveling, you know, to the ocean wouldn't matter as much to the kids if you just went to a lake or if you... you know, we knew where we lived in central Illinois. We just kind of drew a circle around where we lived and we just said, You know what, we're just going to maybe go max of three hours. Or we're just going to find a zoo that they haven't been to or a children's museum.
So I think travel is going to look different in the seasons that your kids are. But I don't think kids notice what the ocean looks like versus, you know, a big lake or something like that.
Laura Dugger: That's good to hear because then anybody listening, regardless of what stage their kids are at, this can still be applicable. So what is your personal vision for why it's important to prioritize traveling during all of these stages of life?
Katie Mueller: Well, one of my motivations for traveling with my family is my dad passed away kind of suddenly about 10 years ago. I think when something like that happens, you realize the years aren't guaranteed with your loved ones. [00:03:34] So I've had more of a passion to use those moments to build relationships, be thankful for the people that God has put in my life. It has caused me to go "It's not forever. It's not a guarantee." And make living life a priority.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. That was so tragic when we heard about your dad passing so suddenly. So I'm really thankful for that legacy that he left and all those memories you all had created.
Katie Mueller: So true. One of the questions I think we can ask ourselves is, am I making the most of my time on earth? We all have goals for our families, goals for our relationships, and we have things that we seek and that we spend money on, and that we want for our family.
I find traveling to be a very valuable and worthy experience to include in family life. I think God used traveling with his children. He told Abraham, Move your family from where you're comfortable to an unknown location. He led and He provided for his children of Israel for 40 years in the desert. [00:04:39]
So I think there's an element of faith that can be used when we get out of our self-controlled, comfortable homes and we go out, we trust God through it. I think it's valuable. I also think we are journeying through life. It's a journey that we start maybe when we get married or something.
Our daily lives are just filled with the unexpected ups and downs. I don't think staying home necessarily means we're safe or unexpected is not going to happen. So I think that traveling does create opportunities to have faith, to say, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know where we're going to stay the night, or I don't know what circumstances are going to happen in our day, but I'm excited for the adventure.
Laura Dugger: Did you ever learn any lessons from traveling that were related to this idea of not really being in control regardless if you're home or you're on a journey?
Katie Mueller: So many. [00:05:39] They are often the most impactful things as I look back. They're the things that sometimes mean the most or I've learned the most. I remember them. One time I was in high school and I think looking back, I had control issues. I thought if I plan for A, then A will happen.
I remember as a young person, one of our first trips that we took on an airplane internationally, my mom had gotten all of us girls ready, and we had packed our bags. I was probably a high schooler. And my dad was in charge of the paper plane tickets. That was his job, to get those in the van.
When we start going in about two hours from our home, he kind of stops and realizes he forgot those plane tickets. So we turn around, get them, get to the airport just in time, and realize we don't have the right birth certificates, not the authorized ones. We ended up spending that night in the Mexico City airport. [00:06:41]
Many people, you know, even myself included, you would think, What a waste. What a disappointment. And there was aspects for sure of that. But then as I look back at that, and I thought, You know what, for some reason, God said this isn't going to happen today and this isn't going to happen how you've planned it. I really took away from that just the ability to say, God, I don't control anything.
I think sometimes the mistakes, the hardships that come, even with travel, give you a character development that can just be a real-life impactful moment for you that's unexpected.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. I've heard you speak before to groups just about encouraging their families to travel. As you're still casting vision, I wanted to highlight one study. You mentioned that there was a study on elderly people, and they were asked to list all of their regrets. Can you pick up what you found from that study?
Katie Mueller: Sure. [00:07:41] One study was done recently that asked elderly people to kind of look back on their life and tell about regrets, things they wish they could tell younger people, you know, that they wish they could have done differently. And number four on their list was not traveling enough.
Sometimes we put off trips till retirement, but then we might not be healthy or our family situation might change. So their advice to people was traveling should take precedence over things that you could spend money on. If you have a choice between a kitchen remodel and a trip, they would have said, Take the trip.
Another British study that I had just also read about was that they said that after a vacation with a family, kids are happier long after the vacation is over. It said that there was more brain development done by building a sandcastle with your child than handing them a tablet.
It even concluded that these bonds that we make with our children on trips, it kind of prepares family for tough times ahead. We're connected. We love each other. We've been through the tough stuff and we're ready for what comes next. [00:08:49] You build this team mentality.
The study even found that it didn't matter how far you went or how long you went. It's just that you went. It made a difference in the kids' lives.
Laura Dugger: That's fascinating that something as enjoyable as traveling together as a family that that's actually increasing the resilience of the family.
Katie Mueller: Totally.
Laura Dugger: Just going back to what you said at the beginning, I'm still stuck on that. I love how you highlighted that God used traveling for His own children. It's such a valuable experience, but it seemed like He really knew that was good for them.
Katie Mueller: I think that's true. I think sometimes things are hard. We know that with our children, you know, it doesn't mean that this road is going to be easy. I think He knew that. But He knew it was valuable. Valuable for their character, for their heart.
I think I look at travel the same way. I look at it as a valuable experience for your kid's heart, for your heart. You know, as a mom, I have been there when I'm like this, whether it's the weather, or, this car trip isn't quite going how I wished. [00:09:53] Maybe we had left in the middle of the night and we were planning that the kids would sleep — this has happened — and they didn't. And they're wide awake. And it's 2 in the morning.
And I've had those moments where I'm like, This is just not going how I want. But I've learned through it. And I think travel provides those chances to learn.
Laura Dugger: So many lessons. Can you take us back and let's just first define what travel is and then maybe share about three different trips per year that you believe should take priority?
Katie Mueller: Sure. I'm going to be really general, and I'm going to say just traveling is leaving your house. I'm going to say it could be from one day. I think those short trips are still considered traveling. And you can go up to however long you want to go.
Another thing I want to relieve pressure is it really doesn't matter how far you go. We've traveled with our family for 20 minutes away. And if you have little kids, maybe it's just a hotel stay in a different town. [00:10:55] It just means you're leaving your home to stay somewhere different.
The only thing that I would say about traveling is that you have to return. You can't keep going or you can't stay away forever. You have to come back to your home.
Laura Dugger: I love it. That's a great broad description. And so what are those three trips per year that you believe should take priority?
Katie Mueller: In my opinion, we can take all different kinds of trips, but I think there's three trips that should take a priority when you're scheduling your year and you're planning for your family. One of the first trips I think should be a priority is traveling with your core family. I know some families love to go with grandma and grandpa or cousins. But really make sure that one time in your year you're traveling with just you, your spouse, and your kiddos and really making those connections as a core family.
Another trip that I would say is travel with your spouse. I think that should be a yearly thing that just you and your spouse are getting away, making those connections too apart from the kids, and enjoying your friendship and your love that you have for each other. [00:12:04]
Then I would even say a third one is traveling with other women or your husband wants to go away with other men. I think it's nice to get away with people who can relate to you and who are sharing and going through the same things as you. So whether it's your mom and your sister or your best friends. I think that's a priority trip that is a connection that is so different than your kids or your spouse, but is important to keep yourself from being depressed or keep yourself from being run down.
Laura Dugger: Yeah. And it's always nice to have something to look forward to.
Katie Mueller: Definitely.
Laura Dugger: Now, on the other side, what do you think are some obstacles to traveling?
Katie Mueller: So bottom line, I think we make time for what's important to us. There are always going to be hard things about travel. There's going to be maybe a language barrier. There are going to be hard things to overcome. But it's our choice whether we make these to be the deal breakers or something to pray and plan for. [00:13:07]
I think one obstacle is money. Some people say, "I can't. It's just too expensive." I think that we can plan for the expense of travel. One thing that we do is we don't eat out as much. Maybe we stay in a condo that has a kitchen and we grill or we buy our food at the store and just make it kind of at the condo so that we're not spending money that way.
Another way to save money is just to walk. If you're in a city, walk to those locations. It saves you travel costs. You could kind of pick your splurge. If you're going to stay somewhere fun, then maybe you're not going to eat out on that trip. Or if you're going to camp, then maybe you don't want to worry about food and you're going to say, Let's go out to eat.
But I think as your year goes on, you're going to want to make this a team effort. Even recently, my kids came to me and they're like, "Mom, there's a book fair at the school. We want to buy books." And I just reminded them, "We can get books from the library. We have lots of books on our bookshelves. Maybe we're not going to get books this year so that we can use that money and save it to the trip." [00:14:18]
So keep your kids' vision for that trip. "We're not going to go out to eat tonight because we're going to put that $20, $30 and we're going to put that toward we get to go somewhere as a family."
Laura Dugger: That's great to loop them in on the process. Did you do that starting at a certain age or was that always just a natural conversation to keep your kids included on that process?
Katie Mueller: You know what, that's something I would say I've just started. When they've started to understand, you know, the need and the want, they're starting to say, "Well, I really want this." I will remind them, "Yeah, there are a lot of things that we want. But as a parent, my job is to point them to what I think is the most valuable."
So there's lots of things I could buy them or lots of things they could purchase, but I want to point them to, I think, this time that we spend together is going to be more worthwhile than that book that you read one time and put on a bookshelf or whatever.
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Laura Dugger: Are there any other obstacles that we need to overcome to travel more?
Katie Mueller: I think childcare can be tricky. You know, if you're gonna go out with the girls or you're going to travel with your spouse, you know, who's going to take care of the kids? I know sometimes we think, as moms, I don't think anyone's going to do it just like I did. I think that we have to... Again, preparing them for the future we have to let go. We have to go, You know what, this is going to be good for them when they realize that mom or dad aren't going to be there all the time. You know, find creative ways to trade with friends, to trade with family.
I know of a couple that they trade babysitting and then they get to go on a trip that year and then the next year it's their job to babysit. So what a great way to say, I'm going to travel, and yet I'm going to also help my friends travel and be with their spouse too. [00:17:38]
Another one that I thought of is anxiety. I think sometimes people being outside of their home, this just causes them a lot of stress. I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know where I'm going to go. I want to remind people they're not anymore in control when they're at home. We can be deceived by that. We can think, oh, my kids are going to be safe.
I know that I've dealt with travel anxiety, especially when I'm leaving my kids. And kind of what I've went through, I think, what if I don't see them again? And yet I know that I trust God. "You're in control, whether I'm at home or whether I'm thousands of miles away from my kids. You're going to handle it."
So I think that's something we just have to keep saying, "This is an unknown. I am scared. And being really authentic about that, and yet also saying, but God, I know you're in control anyway.
The last obstacle that I could think of is sometimes we get resistance from a spouse. [00:18:37] Sometimes maybe we've grown up traveling, but our spouse hasn't. Or sometimes they might say, I just don't want to. So I think one of the first things we need to do to overcome that is to just find out why.
What about travel do they not like? Is it frustrating? Is there something scary? Maybe they just didn't grow up with it. If that's kind of your situation, I would recommend keeping it simple at first. Don't go far. Make the location that you pick be as close to home as possible so this isn't overwhelming. Maybe something like an all-inclusive resort where they're not having to drive far, they're not having to pick different locations to eat. Make it stress-free for your spouse as you can.
Then I think sometimes with relationships, you just kind of have to make a deal. That's fine. If we want to go short trips, maybe with the kids, but how about for our anniversary? Do you think we could go a little bit farther?
One thing that I think is a good thing to remember is it's okay to love that this isn't home. [00:19:39] It's okay to get somewhere and go, This is a big city. It's loud and noisy and I kind of like being at home where it's quiet or the traffic isn't as bad. That's okay. It brings contentment. You know, everything would be so boring if it was the same. So travel is trying to get you to see like, this is not my home. And that's okay. I'm thankful for where I live. But it doesn't have to be something that you don't do just because it's different.
I wanted to say that we even have personalities that kind of affect everything we do. Some people, we go to a restaurant and we order the same thing every time. I don't love to exercise, but I do it because it's good for my body. So I think we can overcome those obstacles to travel in the same way.
There's not going to be an ideal travel location or a way that you have to do it. Make it work for your family. But ultimately, don't live with the regret that we should have gone. Don't let those obstacles be something that says, I'm not going to do it. [00:20:45]
Laura Dugger: I love that you gave us some solutions for each of those obstacles. That's really helpful. Are there any ways that you would recommend we make travel especially memorable?
Katie Mueller: I think it's that connection that will help the trip last longer than just the week that you're gone. We have to put effort into this. That's what makes this more like traveling and not just a vacation.
One thing I thought of, I kind of thought of the five senses. And for sight, I thought maybe it would be a great idea to make a photo book after each trip so the kids can look back and remember the pictures and the memories. I encourage people to see things that aren't the same at home. Plan a vacation where you're going to see different scenery, different people.
And be in awe of what God has done. Psalm 92:4 says, "For you, O Lord, have made me glad by your work, and at the works of your hands I sing for joy." I vividly remember standing at Niagara Falls and the Grand Canyon and the ocean and just marveling at what God did. [00:21:50] And so I hope that as we travel, you know, it points to our Creator. And as we see things and we marvel at what He's made, it will cause us to worship Him.
Another thing for hearing and making a connection is one thing we do is we have a soundtrack. We listen to songs as we travel in the car. We sing them. We sing them often. And then when we get home, if we hear that song, "Oh yeah, that, that reminds me of my time in Colorado or something like that.
Another thing at the end of the day, talk about the favorite things that you've seen that day and listen, as you remember back. Sit around the campfire, sit around the table, and say, what did you like about today?
Another thing that I thought was so good for hearing is just to slow down. The hustle and bustle of our lives, this is what traveling offers us is to ask each other questions, to just sit and listen to the wind. How often do we take the opportunity? Interact with the locals. It's a chance to learn and grow. [00:22:54]
Another thing when we're out traveling, we can touch. We can go out among nature, the city, wherever you are. Experience that culture, that land. Go to the markets. Touch things that are special to those people. Even just swing in a hammock with someone you love. That kind of goes back to just sitting and listening. Hold each other. Really spend time together wherever you're at. It's a time to take a break and just be with each other.
Another thing I thought of with taste is try a dish that that region is famous for. It even gives your kids that connection back. Oh yeah, I remember when we tried lobster in Maine. That's something they're famous for. And they will remember and connect tasting something and trying something new. with your travel experience.
Then the last thing, even for smell, I think that can be part of your travel experience is just to be mindful. As you're walking in a forest or sitting on the beach, point out to your kids, do you smell what this forest is like? What do you smell at the beach? [00:23:59] And really making an experience that connects all those things to where they're at.
Laura Dugger: I love that. And just one more thing to add I've heard you share it before. You've said that to make the connection with travel, there's something hanging in your boy's bedroom. Can you share about that?
Katie Mueller: Sure. When we travel, there's a map hanging in my boy's bedroom that they can put a little magnet on the place that we've gone. So it's super fun for them to look back and go, you know, where have I gone that's the farthest? Or where should we go next? And I think it gives them a visual of where they've been and how big this world is. So I hope that they can continue kind of just marking their territory as we keep traveling with them.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Love it with the five senses. Have you ever shared an episode of The Savvy Sauce with a friend? We would love it if you would pause right now and share this episode or any of your prior favorites. [00:24:58]
This grassroots approach is going to help us accomplish our mission, which states, we exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled with joy to overflowing. We hope you share that joy today.
Any other things that come to mind to make travel really memorable?
Katie Mueller: I think one thing that's important is to journal or make some kind of way that you can remember back. We so easily forget. The week passes and we move on to something else. Ultimately, I just want to tell each family to laugh. I think that's the best emotional connection. It's not going to go perfect, I promise. But if you can laugh with those people that mean so much to you, they're going to remember not the hard things, but they're just going to remember your reactions to them.
This made me think of when we traveled last year to Georgia. We were about two hours into our trip and my husband asked me to climb in the back and see if he had put his bag in. And he hadn't. He only had the clothes on his back. [00:26:01]
Well, when we got there to Georgia, we just went to the Walmart. He bought this gray shirt, these gray shorts. And the kids still laugh at the two outfits that dad wore the whole trip. Our reaction to our upsets in our trip can have a powerful emotional effect on us and our kids. So don't worry about, you know, the weather's bad. Have a fun game indoors.
I think sometimes those spontaneous things, the times where it's not planned, but you just belly laugh about something that happened can be the most powerful memories of your whole trip.
Laura Dugger: I remember you also sharing that storytelling is a big part of traveling. Can you share how your family personalizes that?
Katie Mueller: Definitely. This has been something that my husband has brought to travel that I never had, but I just love and it makes that connection so much longer after the trip. So he's great... He calls them characters. When we travel we find characters. We'll find people... You know, find the best look-alike. Find someone who looks like somebody back home. [00:27:05] And we'll try to find somebody that reminds us of back home.
Then we also like to find characters. These would be people that we see often that just give us a giggle or just make us remember something. I have never met Hoggy One and Hoggy Two. But my boys go fishing with my husband, and they'll come back and they'll tell a story about these two men who were hogging the best spot in the fishing stream. So they nicknamed them Hoggy One and Hoggy Two, and they laughed when Hoggy One and Hoggy Two fell in the water and were splashing around. It's a story, it's a memory that they share.
I remember even when my husband and I went on a cruise and there was a man who was just speed walking around this cruise ship so fast. And we nicknamed him Lightning McQueen and we were... There's Lightning McQueen. That's something that after the trip, you share that with just your loved one that went on the trip, that again, makes that connection, makes that giggle come well after the trip is over. [00:28:14]
Laura Dugger: Yes, those inside jokes can last for such a long time and bring up laughter for years to come. Let's just get really practical. If someone doesn't know where to start after they hear all of this, what are some steps that they can take to plan a trip maybe in this coming year?
Katie Mueller: The first thing that I would do is you just need to decide where to go. I'm someone who... I just research. I try to think of somewhere new. Be inspired by talking to someone. Don't feel pressure to go to some exotic location every time. That's not the important thing. Again, you just want to say, have I gone to the mountains? Well, maybe then I'll try to do some history trip. Or have I done the beach a lot? Then maybe I should try a mission trip.
When our kids were little, the places we traveled were not far away. They didn't know the difference between an ocean or a lake. So we chose as a family not to travel longer than like five hours with them in the car. We would just pick a different city each year. Different cities provide lots of things. We would go to the zoo or children's museum, maybe a fun restaurant, and they would swim at the pool. [00:29:19]
Ideally, your kids are going to remember best a trip, this is my opinion, when they're about between the ages of 6 to 18. So I would use that range to plan your bigger trips. I would wait till they're older. If you're going to spend money on a trip, you know, a lot of money on a trip, wait till they're older to remember and to really have those memories.
And just think of the kinds of trips that will give your kids a wide range of experiences. In my research, there were seven vacations you should take before your kids grow up. So one of them they said was an African safari. Another one was some sort of amusement park like Disney, Wisconsin Dells, or Six Flags. A third trip they recommended was a European road trip. A fourth trip was a history trail whether it was Boston or Washington D.C. or Athens. Another one was U.S. National and State Parks. Another one was snorkeling the Great Barrier Reef. And I even included, like, just go to the ocean with that.
Then the last trip that I think is really impactful for your kids is to take a mission trip sometime between those ages. [00:30:32]
Laura Dugger: That's awesome to hear some suggestions and I even think history. I know one on our bucket list for long term is just going to Israel and getting to see where Jesus walked. So it's helpful to have these general themes and then we can personalize it to whatever makes sense for our family.
Katie Mueller: Exactly, exactly. So after you've decided where to go, next I would begin with booking your flights and hotels. One thing that I've read a lot about is don't make the mistake of booking too late or too early. The ideal time is about two months before your departure. Too late or too early you're going to have more cost. and you might not get your choice of seats or there might not be availability.
So when you're booking your flights remember that Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Saturdays are the cheapest day to fly. Being flexible with your dates will give you a cheaper ticket price. Also, this is one that my mom did. Don't be afraid to take those kiddos out of school. It doesn't have a long-term effect on their grades. Sometimes it's cheaper during the school year to go. You know, summers, the holidays, they're expensive. [00:31:42]
So if budget is a big priority and you don't think you're going to be able to go, being a week out of school isn't going to hurt them in the long run. So don't be afraid to not travel just because they have a school schedule. A great time to go is right after the end of a place's high season. The weather's usually good, it's less crowded, so that would be a great time to travel. Just check different websites to find the best deal.
Then I would say after you've booked your flights, your hotels, the last thing you want to book is activities. What are you going to do in this location? So often I read on TripAdvisor or Trivago and I read what other people say about it. What did they think about this beach? What did they think about this hike? Just because everyone does it, doesn't mean it's the best for your family.
I know my kids get motion sickness. So maybe a Six Flags isn't going to work for my family. That's okay. You have to do what's best for you. And the activities should be catered to what your kids like. [00:32:46] If you have a son who really loves airplanes, you know, see if there's a museum, see if you can go somewhere that caters to that interest and love.
Another website you can look on is likealocalguide.com. This gets tips from locals in the area. So people who know this area best, that would be a great website to go when you're trying to book an activity. What do locals suggest you do in this area?
Then also remember to check on free activities. We did this a lot when we had little kids. So there's some museums, libraries are free. And we have gone to a really neat puppet show and a children's time and been to a library where it was all free and my kids really enjoyed it. There's often some tours that could be free. Maybe you would just have to tip the guide. So just kind of be a researcher. Look at what is there to do and what fits my family.
Laura Dugger: These step-by-steps are so helpful. Do you have any other travel tips in general? [00:33:47]
Katie Mueller: One thing I would just keep in mind is to make travel fun. Whether you're riding in a car. I take a little map that I bought from Melissa and Doug, and it helps the kids to find different license plates from different states. Or we'll play the ABC game as we're traveling along. If the car ride's getting boring, tell the kids at a rest stop or at the restaurant, let's switch seats. Let's try something new.
I think that as long as you're journeying along and you're keeping it fun and keeping it so that this is exciting, you know, what can we see? I know one time my mom packed little gifts for the kids. And if they saw... it was like a scavenger hunt. If they saw three trucks or if they saw two trains or five motorcycles, then they could open a little gift.
This was for the long car ride. And it was so fun that the kids were, you know, looking for those things. And then they got to open a little gift that she had wrapped for them. [00:34:49] So I think those are neat things that your kids, again, will remember and it just keeps those long hours of traveling fun.
Laura Dugger: Those are so fun. I've heard people that use audiobooks. Have you guys ever traveled with audiobooks for your family?
Katie Mueller: We have and we have really enjoyed it. We'll find a fun book from the library that, you know, the kids want to listen to and we will listen to that as a family and laugh. Or I think lots of kids enjoy the Adventures in Odyssey series. So yeah, find something that your kids like to do.
I try to have even boundaries, whether it's a long trip in the car with technology. You know, I don't want to be driving through the mountains and my kids in front of the screen when they can be looking out. So there's a time that, you know, it's quiet time in the car. And then there's a time where you just say, just chill, just read a book, just talk to each other. And encourage that family time because that's really nice. [00:35:47]
I know when I'm driving in the car, that's one of my favorite times to talk to my husband. I love it because we're not always so close together. We don't often have uninterrupted time. So just use even a car ride as a time to connect.
Laura Dugger: Such a great idea. I think we could even link to a bunch of these websites that we've been mentioning or even products that we use that have helped out travel, even as far as going into some kids' toys that keep their attention during those long car rides.
But let's circle back now to the vision that you cast for us at the beginning. Will you share the rest of your story about your family and why those travel memories are especially dear to you now?
Katie Mueller: Yes. We went on one of my favorite trips that I ever took with my family about six years before my dad died. We did a European road trip and then we went on to do an African safari. I think after you've lost someone, when you remember back to the great times with them, it's always around an experience. Nobody ever says, I remember when we got those new countertops, best memory. [00:36:57]
My dad drove around a rusty old pickup when he sure could have used our family's travel money to buy a new one. But I'm so thankful that I have this legacy of memories and laughs that I experienced with him while he lived. He gave me something so much more valuable, and I'm really thankful that we lived life while he was here.
I know my kids are growing quickly. I don't know the journey that God has planned for their lives. And just as Jesus didn't count it too costly to travel to earth to show me how much He loved me, I want my kids. I want my husband, my friends to know that I'm willing to give up things just to be with them.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Thank you for sharing that. That's so impactful to hear your whole story and how that played out. So experiencing all of that with your story, what encouragement do you want to leave with all of the listeners today?
Katie Mueller: I think I want them to just be inspired to be an adventurer, to see and to experience creation. [00:38:02] My biggest prayer for my family is that first we'll get to spend eternity with Christ when we get a new earth and a heaven to explore. But celebrate life.
If you're turning 40, if you've been married for 30 years, if your baby's out of diapers, celebrate it. Be thankful. Enjoy what you've given. I think that's what, you know, tragedy sometimes speaks into your life, is that you want to live it, live it to the fullest. And I think travel just provides a chance for you to do that with your family away from the distractions, away from the interruptions of home.
I know that often my little ones will say, you know, can you play with me? And I can, but oh, first I've got to switch a load of laundry or I'm going to get supper ready. So when I'm removed from that, I can celebrate. I get you in my life. God has put us together as a team. And if we get lost on this journey, we're going to get lost together. [00:39:04] And I'm going to just be so thankful that God has given me you.
Laura Dugger: I think that's so encouraging, just to intentionally celebrate life. Katie, I just have one final question for you today. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so we would all love to know, what is your savvy sauce?
Katie Mueller: Well, one thing that I have learned along the way is that it gets busy and overwhelming as a mom. It has been so helpful for me to break tasks or goals down into doable smaller parts for my day. So let's say losing 10 pounds. That might be a long-term goal. But if I look at just that, that looks overwhelming to me. So maybe for me, I'll just say just exercise today.
Or cleaning the whole house. I'll get overwhelmed and want to stop as I plow through each room. But maybe I could just say, you know what? Just clean the bedrooms today. Same thing with planning a trip. [00:40:05] It might look so overwhelming. "I don't know how I'm going to do that." But just think of one thing you can do that day. If I try to just accomplish part of the whole goal each day, I'm more productive and I'm less likely to quit.
Laura Dugger: That's great. That makes a lot of sense. It's kind of like that story, the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. You've encouraged all of us just to keep on steadily plotting and to have these visions and goals in front of us. This has been so much fun to get to spend time with you. I'm definitely leaving inspired to travel with my family. So thanks for joining us today.
Katie Mueller: Thanks. I really enjoyed it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:41:04]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:42:07]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:43:05]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Nov 04, 2019
Monday Nov 04, 2019
81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith
**Transcription Below**
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith is an author, speaker, and board-certified internal medicine physician. She has an active medical practice in Alabama (near the Birmingham area). She received her B.S. in Biochemistry at the University of Georgia and graduated with honors from Meharry Medical College in Nashville. She has been an adjunct faculty member at Baker College and Davenport University in Michigan teaching courses on health, nutrition, and disease progression. Dr. Dalton-Smith is a national and international media resource on the mind, body, spirit connection and a top 100 medical expert in Good Housekeeping Doctors’ Secrets. She has been featured in many media outlets including Women’s Day, Redbook, First For Women, MSNBC, and Prevention. She is the author of Set Free to Live Free and Come Empty (winner 2016 Golden Scroll Nonfiction Book of the Year and 2016 Illumination Award Gold medalist). Her newest release is Sacred Rest: Recover Your Life, Renew Your Energy, Restore Your Sanity, including ground-breaking insight on the seven types of rest needed to optimize your productivity, increase your overall happiness and live your best life. She has shared her tips on merging faith and medicine with over 16,000 health care professionals to encourage the current and next generation of doctors to treat the whole person. Learn more about Dr. Saundra at IChooseMyBestLife.com.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: If you've listened to The Savvy Sauce for very long, you know I'm a big fan of our sponsor, FabFitFun. Now the 2019 Winter Box is on pre-sale. Visit them at FabFitFun.com and enter code SAVVY at checkout for $10 off your first box.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith is my guest today, and we will discuss stories and applications she discovered through research for her recent book, Sacred Rest. This goes beyond recommending more sleep. She's going to break down seven different types of rest for us to intentionally engage with so that we can become restored. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Dalton-Smith.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: Excited for you to join us. And for anyone who isn't familiar yet with you and your work, can you just give us an overview of who you are and what you do? [00:01:20]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Absolutely. I'm an internal medicine physician and author. I live right outside of the Birmingham, Alabama area, and I have two boys ages 13 and 14. I'm married to the love of my life, we've been together now for 19 years.
Laura Dugger: You've recently written a book, and I just appreciate your openness in your book about becoming a wounded healer. So can you share how there was a tragic event in your infancy that set you on this path to pursue rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I started off in a situation where I really just felt like God had not been fair to me, if I'm going to be completely honest, and it left really a deep wounding. That was when I was born, my mother died about three days after childbirth, and my father at the time was in the military. So he had come home for the birth, but he went in expecting to leave with the family, and he ended up leaving the hospital with just an infant. So he wasn't prepared for that. [00:02:21]
So he gave me to my great-grandmother to raise and went back to the military to finish up with his tour. So my whole thought concept of home was one that... I looked at home as this place I was trying to get to, this place of security and love and acceptance and just everything being whole. That wasn't how my childhood was. That wasn't how it felt. It didn't feel whole.
When I looked at other families and other kids in my class who had a mom and a dad, and I had neither. This orphan spirit, this wounding resonated, I think, into the rest of my life. I really believe that's part of the reason I became a doctor.
Laura Dugger: I remember reading in your book that that was even part of your process in turning ultimately to God. Is that right?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: It was. Because I kept trying to find peace in things. Maybe if I got enough accolades, and maybe if I got enough degrees, and if I got enough awards, that some way that I would get to this place of feeling whole. [00:03:26] And none of those things satisfied. None of those things led me to that place, except for God.
Laura Dugger: Well, definitely a tragic journey, but I'm so glad for that ending that you found Him. You've written extensively about rest, which rest can seem like such a simple process. So why do you think so many people struggle with fatigue and insomnia?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I think that the issue is, is that many of us have combined the concepts of sleep and rest. So we think we're resting when we're really not. We call things rest that are not restorative. That's the big mindset shift that most people have to make is that rest should equal restoration. When you're doing something that you're calling rest, if you can't tell me what's being restored, then it's not true rest.
For example, you know, people are constantly saying, well, I'm going to rest on the weekend and they go watch Netflix or they just lay around on the couch. [00:04:29] But nothing is truly intentionally being restored. That's how we relieve that fatigue. Whether the fatigue is spiritual or mental or emotional or physical, we relieve it by restoring that area.
Laura Dugger: So let's just lay a foundation with definitions then. What is the distinction between sleep and rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Sleep is purely physical. When you're thinking about sleeping, you're just talking about the physical aspects of resting. We're not going into the other parts of it. Within my book, I've noticed that there's actually seven different parts of rest. Rest is more inclusive. It includes everything that pertains to your life and your well-being and restoring all of those areas, not simply focusing on restoring the physical.
Laura Dugger: So let's elaborate then. Like you mentioned in your book, Sacred Rest, you do describe seven types of rest. So what are they? [00:05:28]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: The seven types are physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, social, sensory, and creative.
Laura Dugger: Okay. We can get a sense of what these types of rest are just from their names. But to gain a better understanding, could you just briefly define each type of rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes. Well, physical is probably the easiest one for most people to comprehend because we automatically think sleep. But in physical rest, we have to divide it up into active and passive. So sleep and napping are the passive types of physical rest. The active physical rest include things like stretching, anything really that improves your circulation and gets the lymphatics flowing. Like leisure walks, prayer walks, things where you're not trying to burn calories necessarily, but you're just trying to improve the circulation. Also with muscle tension release is another thing with physical rest.
Mental rest is allowing your mind to kind of get to that quiet place. [00:06:28] So for many people, that's a huge area. When they try to go to sleep at night, their mind's racing or they can't seem to turn their brain off. And so that's what mental rest does. It kind of gets everything to settle down in the head to clear that cerebral space.
Spiritual rest. I look at spiritual rest as building that relationship with God. Not so much focus on religion and the dogma related to that, but more of a focus on relationship and that feeling of belonging and love and acceptance that we get from that relationship.
Laura Dugger: Could you also elaborate... if somebody is longing for that mental rest, what are a few examples of something that's restorative?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yeah. With mental rest, one of the biggies is when people try to lay down at night to go to sleep. So if you're lying down and you're having one of those situations where you're ruminating over something, whether it's something you have to do the next day, kind of doing a mental checklist of your to-do list, or if you are rehashing a conversation or something that you wish you'd said different, it's recommended to do what we call mind dumping. [00:07:35]
So the way the brain works is it automatically wants to hold on to any information that you're ruminating over like that. So if you're able to put it on something concrete, like a piece of paper, I mean, it could be a post-it note, a journal, just some way of concretely getting it out of your head onto something. That way, your brain will allow you to let it go because it's preserved.
So you can always go back and look at that note card that says, oh, don't forget to do X, Y, Z in the morning. And it keeps your mind from holding on to it, trying to preserve it for you in that way.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so helpful. Then you said spiritual rest. What are some examples for that one as well?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, a fun one I do with teens when I'm discussing spiritual rest is to send yourself a text that states what you would need God to say for you in that day for you to feel loved. And what it does is it gets that whole mindset of relationship. Because of teens that's how they communicate now, everything's by a text message. [00:08:35]
So if God texts you, what would it say? What do you need to hear to know that He loves you unconditionally and that you're wanted and needed?
Laura Dugger: Thank you for clarifying. Those are the first three, and I'll let you continue on with the rest of them.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Emotional rest is that ability to be authentic and just express yourself truthfully. There's a lot of people-pleasing type behaviors that we adopt to try not to have confrontation with others. But really, personal boundaries require that there be some level of confrontation. By definition, that's what a boundary is.
So with emotional rest, it's giving yourself that freedom to be truthful, to use your nose appropriately, to really make decisions based on what is needed now in the moment. And maybe not necessarily what you've always done or what people expect of you, to have that freedom to just be authentic.
Laura Dugger: As a clinician, are there any specific relationships where you see this is really difficult for your patients? [00:09:38]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: I see it as being difficult for women more than men. There's kind of a perception that women should just be extra nice or nice to the point of sacrifice all the time, I guess maybe what I'm thinking. But there has to be some boundaries. You can't automatically become the go-to person for every bake sale just because you did it one time or the go-to person to teach Sunday school just because you did it two years ago.
You have to be able to actually say and feel the freedom to say when something no longer is a good fit and not to just do it because you don't want to make anyone mad.
Laura Dugger: That's a great word of encouragement. And you said that one was?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Emotional. Emotional is really closely tied with social because both of them have to do with people and how we interact with people. Social rest is the rest we get from our relationships. So every relationship either revives us or drains us. That doesn't mean that a relationship is good or bad. It's just the nature of how the dynamics are for that relationship. [00:10:46]
For example, your kids are always pulling from you. They're needing things. They're draining parts of you. But that doesn't mean they're bad. That's just the nature of that relationship. You're giving into their lives. Same with marriages.
But the flip side of that, both of them can also be restorative. But it just depends on what's going on in that moment, whether you are giving or you're receiving from that relationship. And so you have to recognize how different relationships pull on you.
There are always people in your life, particularly if you work outside the home, you may notice that you go into the room and a certain co-worker, every time you're around them, you just leave feeling ahrr. You feel like, Something about them just leaves me not feeling good.
When you recognize that about someone, it doesn't mean you can always avoid them. But it does open up an opportunity to make sure that you get restoration and whatever it is they're pulling from you. So with adults, one way of correcting that is to always be mindful of how regular you're getting time with your life-giving people. [00:11:51]
Your friends who don't need something from you all the time, but you just feel good to be around. To make sure that even with your spouse, that you're making time to just enjoy each other. And that your only face-to-face time isn't when you're arguing or when you're discussing the kids or paying bills and kind of doing the deep work. That you're actually spending some eye-to-eye, face-to-face time just loving on each other and talking to each other, communicating.
Laura Dugger: I have to admit, I think that was my favorite one to learn more about. Because at first glance, you think it means taking a break socially. But how you unpack it, finding more time to be around those life-giving people. I just feel like that provided a lot of freedom. I think a lot of listeners are like me. They're in a stage where they're with kids all the time. I felt like you gave the freedom not to feel guilty that you need some of those life-giving adult conversations and time spent together to recharge, really. [00:12:51]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: You do. Absolutely, you do. I think that's one of the reasons that when we look at studies, you know, when we're kids, we have all these friends. As adults, with social media, it looks like we have a lot of friends but those relationships are very superficial. They are not the deep kind of relationship where you can really feel like someone gets you.
So it's very important to make sure that there's a couple of people in your life who you really feel like are those life-givers. And to honor them with your time and with your presence. Because that's what you're getting from them is their time and their presence.
Laura Dugger: I think you put words to why date night with my husband each week, why that's such a highlight. And it fuels us in all areas.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yeah, that's awesome.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: So those are the first five. I'll let you continue with the final two types.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: The next is sensory rest. Sensory rest is the rest needed from the external stimuli that we get from our surroundings. For example, you mentioned being a mom. If you're a mom with girls, particularly, who have a tendency to be very high-pitched, and even their laughter is high-pitched so you're constantly hearing kind of high-pitched sounds, or you're working on the computer, or if your job requires you to be in an office space where you're hearing kind of that background hum from people talking in the background and phones ringing, all of that leaves our senses in a bit of a toxic state.
So sometimes people don't understand why, at the end of the day, they're just so agitated. That's that sensory overload that many of us live under, and we just kind of stay constantly tense. Well, sensory rest is undoing that. [00:16:07] It's getting back to the silence and an understanding of why dimming the lights on your computer as you're going into the evening can be beneficial to help lead you into deeper, higher-quality sleep.
It's kind of down-toning all of these stimuli that we have on a regular basis and making a point of getting back to just kind of some simplicity within our senses. Turning off the TV if no one's watching it. Driving in silence and not always having the radio on. All of these are ways to start getting more of it easily.
Laura Dugger: Even with brain research, are there certain people that are more genetically predisposed to be really sensitive to these sensory stimuli?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes. And if someone has a tendency to have higher cortisol levels, like their job is just naturally is more stressful, so they tend to have chronic increases in their catecholamines and their endorphins, those people really have to pay attention to this because it's almost like their body is just primed to be hyper. [00:17:11] And so you don't then want to feed that with even more external stimuli.
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. I'm curious, does that apply to somebody who's experienced trauma as well? Do you see any correlation there?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I think it depends on the type of trauma. I look at trauma in two ways. We have trauma that's more depressing. It brings you down. And then we have trauma that's more stimulating, that kind of keeps you heightened.
So if the trauma is in a way that was more stimulating, then, yes, any kind of excessive stimulation is going to kind of worsen that. If the trauma is more kind of depressing, that it's kind of suppressed your spirit more than agitated it, then I'm not thinking that's going to make up because you're already kind of in a down state. So that extra stimulation is probably just going to kind of make you look normal. No one would ever be able to tell the difference. [00:18:07]
However, someone who's had something traumatic that's more stimulating, you may even have noticed this. Like if someone drops a book in a library or restaurant, somebody drops a glass, it's like they're about to jump out of their skin. They're just so at the edge of their stimulation that any little extra is too much.
You also see it like if they go to something like a concert. There are some people who say, "I just can't stand loud music. I can't stand being at concert. It just really upsets me." And that's that kind of overstimulation coming out in a different form.
Laura Dugger: Okay. That's another reason why this book is so helpful. You give tips of how to restore that area. What is the final type of rest you cover?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: The last type is creative rest. It's probably my favorite because it's one that a lot of people have never even heard of. Some of these others, you may not know the specifics, but you at least have some idea.
But with creative rest, it's really allowing beauty to inspire awe and wonder inside of us. It's that playfulness that we all need, but we all try to act like we don't need it because we're grownups now. [00:19:14] I think that is probably my favorite.
When I tell people creative rest, the very first thing they start thinking about is, Ih, I need to take an art class or I need to do something like that. And really that's creative work because it's pulling on your creativity. And you have to remember rest is about being poured back into. It's about restoration.
So creative rest would be going to the theater and enjoying the art or going to a museum and letting the art inspire you or going outside your door and taking a walk in nature and looking at just nature and the things around you and allowing the beauty that you see to make something come alive inside of you.
Laura Dugger: I really like that one as well. But as a culture, why do you think we view rest as lazy or selfish or say that it's a luxury?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Within our culture, we really have made rest out to be just sitting around. We've made it out to be this just cessation of activity. And that's not what it is. You can cease activity and not restore anything. I mean, look at the majority of the population. We have sedentary jobs, and so you're sitting, but you're not restoring your body because the lymphatics and the circulation are getting stagnant. So you still are needing that body fluidity. [00:20:37]
When you change the mindset of what rest looks like, it no longer looks like a luxury or laziness. It looks like something that's vital for you to actually be at your best.
Laura Dugger: You even say that the greatest gift that we can give God and others is a rested, best version of ourselves. Do you have any scripture to kind of reinforce that point? Or how did you arrive at that conclusion?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, the scripture that I focus the book really around comes from Genesis. I don't quote the scripture specifically in the book, but that is the framework of actually how the book was created. When I look at Genesis, really chapters one and chapter two, we see that man was created on day six. Animals were created first, man was created. And after we were created, He told us to be fruitful and multiply. Basically gave us our assignment, gave us our mandate for what we were here for.
And then the next day after that was day seven. And on day seven, it says God rested. [00:21:37] Well, most of the time, we don't think about what man and woman did on that day. But if God rested, we were resting, too, because it was after that, at the second part of that second chapter, that it then starts talking about the work.
So many of us go about our work in a way that we think we have to work to earn our rest. Where if we look at just from the very beginning, we are to... after we get an understanding of who we are and what we're supposed to be doing, once our purpose is kind of clear, our job is to first rest and then we work from our rest, not work to rest.
Laura Dugger: That's an incredible paradigm shift. What are the long-term effects if we focus only on work and then omit regular periods of rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I think we see it in media all the time where we see these really successful people and we hear about them ending their life because they just felt like they weren't worth being here anymore. [00:22:41]
I can totally understand that because when you don't allow periods of rest, you rob yourself of the ability to enjoy the work that you do. So you're constantly pouring, pouring, pouring. You can be blessing everybody around you and internally feel empty because you are not allowing yourself to enjoy the work that's being done and to receive back from that. It's great to be a giver, but to be able to continue to give, you have to get to a point where you are also a receiver. And rest is where we get that receiving.
Laura Dugger: Seems like a natural balance. We've discussed a few spiritual topics. So what do you think the enemy wants for us as it relates to rest and burnout?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: I think that's one of his biggest ways of keeping people bound. In Isaiah chapter 30, I think it's 12 through about 15, that's one of the scriptures where I really got an eye-opening as well, because it talks about when the Israelites were coming out of slavery and going into the promise. [00:23:50] But God tells them, in returning in rest shall you be saved? In quietness and trust shall you proceed. It said, "But you were afraid and unwilling."
And when I read that, it really dawned on me because I thought, you know, You're right, God, I am unwilling to rest because I'm afraid that if I rest, then everything's going to fall apart. That quietness and trust... I had no trust. I trusted in my own ability to get it done, not in God's ability to obtain it and sustain it while I rested. And I think that's the thing. When we look at rest, we don't look at it as how it is identified with our relationship with God, but how well you rest as a level of how well you trust God with what you have.
Laura Dugger: Never thought of it that way. I really like that.
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So what do you think God wants for us?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: I think He wants us to return to His original plan. I love that, you know, in the Ten Commandments, we have all these thou shalt not, thou shalt not, thou shalt not. And only one of them says to remember something. Why does it say that? Because He knew we would forget.
I think His desire for us is to do just that — to remember why we need rest and to remember how important he even thought it was that He emulated it to us in the very beginning. So that our very first full day on the earth was one where He was showing us the way.
Laura Dugger: That is such a gift from him. In your book, you mentioned the gifts of rest. So what do you mean by that?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes, the gifts of rest are 12 different things that to me, they come from rest. So when you're resting well, you experience these without even trying. So that's the gift part of them. [00:26:14]
And just a couple of them. One of them is boundaries. You know, we talked about those personal boundaries. Well, I think it's important to realize that we have to have them. Otherwise, we get in these situations and these relationships where we start getting resentful because we feel like people aren't being respectful of our needs. But they don't even know what we need if we don't have any boundaries up to let them know kind of the limitations of what we find acceptable.
Another one of the gifts is a gift of reflection. Just being able to see things from a different perspective. And sometimes you can't get that until you stop for a moment and really take some time to look at the situation kind of from the 30,000 feet perspective and not just from where you're standing at right now.
Laura Dugger: Those are helpful. Your book also has a lot of teaching stories in it. Do you have a favorite?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes. My favorite teaching story, I would say, is the very first one in Chapter Three where I'm discussing a businesswoman who is basically coming home from work. [00:27:21] But in her travel home, she is using that time really as her opportunity to unwind. Her life is packed. So the only time she's kind of allowing some mental rest is when she's driving home in traffic.
And as you can imagine, that is not the ideal time to let your mind wander. But people do it all the time. You know, that's the time they kind of zone out a little bit. Well, in her situation, she zoned out and didn't see the car breaking in front of her and had a wreck.
I met her in the ICU after liver lacerations and intubation and all that had to go on to get her back stabilized. The part of the story that really stuck with me, because she was with us for a while, she had quite a recovery, was at the end of her recovery period... We were getting everything ready and kind of saying our goodbyes. I recall her just being so emotional and so tearful. And I'm like, "You get to leave." In my head, I'm thinking, "This is great. You're alive, you're healthy, you get to leave." [00:28:25]
And she was like, "I don't want to be who I was before I came in here." That time of just being forced to rest to kind of get her mind cleared out. She had done some deep soul-searching. God had really just met her during this time. She recognized the benefit of that set-apart time. But she had to be forced into it almost through this accident.
And just listening to her express that I thought, "God, I don't want anyone else to have to be forced, so to speak, into rest. I want them to enter into the rest."
Laura Dugger: I think that empowers all of us that we have a choice to enter into that rest. And if a listener is really tracking with you, Dr. Saundra, where can they dive deeper into this topic online or connect with you?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: One of the main ways I would recommend them to really start looking at this topic would be through my free rest assessment at restquiz.com. [00:29:29] It basically allows them to answer a series of questions that will help them to see which of the seven types of rest they are most efficient in. So they're not just kind of grasping at thin air trying to determine, well, which one do I need or do I need all seven? Usually, you don't need all seven to really dive into. You're likely already getting most of them. You just didn't know what they were or how determined.
But there's normally one or two that you're deficient in. So being able to identify those specific ones where you need more rest can help direct you as you're being more intentional.
Laura Dugger: That is great. We will link to that in our show notes and also put your website in our "Resources" tab on our website. I have one final question for you today because our listeners know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so we'd love to hear yours. Dr. Saundra, what is your savvy sauce? [00:30:29]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: My savvy sauce is I nightly dump my mind junk. I'm one who likes to hold on to things and process information and kind of go through all of that. So every night I dumped all the mind junk. I have a piece of paper where I jot down whatever that is so that I can go to sleep with a clear head.
And then if it's something that needs to be processed, I still have it in front of me so I can process it at a more appropriate time when I'm not trying to sleep.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's a great idea. Dr. Saundra, you are so knowledgeable and I feel like you've just given us so many practical tips that we can grab on to. I really appreciate you being our guest today.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Oh, thanks so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:31:36]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:32:38]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:33:37]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 28, 2019
Monday Oct 28, 2019
*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears
80. Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
**Transcription Below**
Zephaniah 3:17 NIV “The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.”
Vickie L. George, M.Ed., M.S., LMFT, LPC, CST is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor, Certified Sex Therapist, and is an AAMFT Approved Supervisor, an Approved Clinical Supervisor (ACS) by CCE of the NBCC, and a Certified Professional Counselor Supervisor (CPCS) by the State of Georgia. She has a Master’s degree in counseling from Georgia State University, a Master’s degree in Christian Psychological Integration with a specialization in Sex Therapy from Richmont Graduate University (formerly the Psychological Studies Institute), and also has completed post-graduate work in marriage and family therapy training at the University of Georgia and training in supervision.
Vickie has been counseling, teaching and consulting with several organizations since opening her practice in 1984. During her 30 plus years, she has gained extensive experience as she has helped clients work through difficult issues such as couple problems, sexual problems, addiction, abuse, women's issues, and examining spiritual issues.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Co-Dependent No More by Melody Beattie
The New Codependency by Melody Beattie
It Will Never Happen to Me by Claudia Black
Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Glenn
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
For nearly three decades, award-winning speaker and author Sam Glenn has been captivating audiences of every size from every industry with his inspirational, art-based talks that focus on recharging attitudes for success. To learn more about Sam's speeches, books, and art, visit samglenn.com.
We have Vickie George back as our returning guest. Last time we had the opportunity to chat, we discussed gender differences and conflict in relationships. And that's an episode you don't want to miss. And now we're back together to discuss hormones, codependent relationships, and how to understand our spouse's different manifestations of sexual desire in marriage. [00:01:19]
Here's our chat.
Welcome back today, Vickie.
Vickie George: Oh, it's good to be back.
Laura Dugger: Do you mind just giving us a glimpse into who you are?
Vickie George: Well, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor, and a certified sex therapist. I'm also an approved supervisor. So a great deal of my life and practice is to the passion of all three of those.
I have about 30% of my practice where I am supervising therapists both in training in grad school, post-grad, and also therapists who may be also licensed. Mentoring the next generation of therapists is extremely important to me and a passion of mine. I want to make sure that I do that well and that the next generation is able to pass on the important things that make marriage and family and relationship therapy so important in a world that feels very disconnected at times or not relational. [00:02:29] The connecting is more at each other rather than with each other.
Laura Dugger: So good. For anybody who isn't aware of this, you were my supervisor in graduate school and taught me so much. And you continue to just be available, willing to answer questions. So I really appreciate getting to connect with you again today.
Vickie George: Yeah. It's a delight to have you back in my office. Well, and I work a lot, not only with couples, but I work a lot with trauma and also addiction. So all of those are loves of mine in the field. It is complex and that is the type of thing that I like working with. Because the more complex it is, the more the joy as they unpack and get healing in the many complex areas where there may be wounding or deprivation, etc.
Laura Dugger: Let's just dive right in. We often hear hormones have a big effect on us, but can you explain further how they specifically affect our mood, sleep, and sex life? [00:03:38]
Vickie George: They affect all of it. That's the bottom line. And therein lies why as you age or menopause or andropause for men, as that lessens then mood can get more swinging-like, sleep problems because hormones bathe the brain and then therefore the body in what it needs for a sense of calm or arousal. It affects how well we think.
That's why, you know, people will laugh about menopause brain because literally it's not being bathed as much so memory will get iffy at times. It affects everything from how you are able to have muscle mass, those are just a few things. Some of that you've probably heard on television, you know, promoting certain things that are helpful. Part of that, yes, can be done through medicine. [00:04:45]
But it's really important not only to know how they're needed in the body, but also that they need to be in the correct ratio in the body so that when you're younger, if things are not going well or whatever, it may be a hormone problem in men and women. So going and having a complete physical to see what hormone levels are and are you in the average range and are the ratio of all three of the main hormones that all men and women have which is estrogen, testosterone, and progesterone. They have to be in the correct ratio. So an over or an under of any of those will affect the person as well in a negative way.
Laura Dugger: You mentioned that medication may help with some of that, but is it possible in any other way for us to help harness our hormones or help that ratio be in the correct relationship? [00:05:47]
Vickie George: Well, first of all, everything is interrelated and holistic. Everything from neurotransmitters that are in the body, especially that you hear about in the brain, but also neurotransmitters like serotonin is in the digestive area. And they all interconnect with each other.
For instance, serotonin is connected with estrogen and is almost a synthesis. That's why sometimes when women who have hormonal issues may go on something like an SSRI, which is an antidepressant, a low dosage of that will affect the serotonin level as well as the estrogen so that they feel better.
Of course, what are things that we know that help? Getting enough sleep, eating healthy, watching sugar intake, exercise. One of the things that we have said for a very long time is 45 minutes of intense aerobic activity four times a week is equal to 20 milligrams of generic Prozac. [00:06:53]
Of what it does in changing the structure of the brain and helping promote Serotonin in the brain, which of course is connected with estrogen indirectly. And there are things that you can take over the counter that can be helpful. But you want to talk with your healthcare provider about that especially if like naturopathic type of things that some people are okay with other people or not. It's a personal choice. Certain things... GABA, that helps, 5-HTP are things that help with calming, and all of those together.
Laura Dugger: And we're throwing out a lot of terms here. Maybe we should back it up and we'll unpack a few of these hormones and then even serotonin. How would a listener know what serotonin does for them or how they would have a measure of if it might be off in their body?
Vickie George: Serotonin is part of what gives you a sense of calm and well-being. [00:07:56] That is how serotonin is used mostly in the body. I just saw some recent statistics that 52% of women at some point or another will have a shortage of serotonin.
One of the things that we know is that women suffer more with depression. So seeing your doctor, seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist, those are avenues where you can talk to the experts about that. But if you are feeling sugar cravings, anxiety, depression, problems with sleep, those are some of the telltale signs that can be that serotonin may be off.
Laura Dugger: That is really helpful. Can you do the same thing with the three main hormones? Just a little glimpse of what they do and how we know if they're out of whack. [00:08:56]
Vickie George: Lack of estrogen in women, they really don't have any type of sexual desire very often. If they are estrogen dominant, which means that they don't have enough testosterone or progesterone, they can be very agitated, irritability, or whatever. So it's once again that too much or too little of anything.
The same way with testosterone in men, if there is kind of a lethargy, or it will come out in lack of desire sometimes for sex, that can be a testosterone issue. Because anytime something is off, the first thing that you want to do is go and have a full panel done, having a complete physical check, and have a complete physical with all the blood work and hormones tested, thyroid tested, etc., those types of things to see. I mean some people can feel like they're depressed and they may just be having a problem with B12 which gives you energy or that you may not be metabolizing it. [00:10:09]
So, not to get too complex, the bottom line is if you're not sure, visiting your doctor and having a complete physical where they do a lot of blood work for those types of things and see what the doctor says. One of the things that has come into my office is that people will have their tests done for hormones or thyroid and the doctor will say that they are in the normal range but it's in the low normal range. And low normal for lots of people is actually low.
So having hormones or thyroid, etc. that is in the mid-range is really what's helpful for overall health, mentally, emotionally, physically, sexually, etc.
Laura Dugger: And progesterone is one that we don't hear about as much. So is there anything that would alert us if ours is off? [00:11:08]
Vickie George: It's a misunderstood hormone. It's considered, quote-unquote, the prickly hormone in one sense that you can be irritable or agitated with it, but it also has its benefit in balancing out the others. So once again, if there's too much of it, the prickly or whatever, but where there is a deficit of it, then you will run into some health issues. So it's needed to balance the body out.
A lot of times progesterone therapy will be used to balance these out or even in menopause. That's why talking to your health care professional, somebody that you believe really knows what they're talking about... You know, sometimes you just have to find who works best for you.
Laura Dugger: Another obstacle that many women face is negative body image. How does that affect their level of enjoyment and freedom in the bedroom?
Vickie George: It affects it a great deal. [00:12:08] You're going to have to come to having an acceptance about your body. Now, that's easier said than done, given the nature of our society, how skinny and everything is championed, how you are only as good as you look so often is purported in Hollywood and everywhere else. So it is tough for lots of women to accept that, but it needs to be a work in progress.
The other thing is, are you being not okay with your body because of you? What messages did you get? Where did this come from? Are you being perfectionistic? Because 100% of all women have some quote-unquote body issues, something on their body that they don't like. [00:13:09]
The other thing is when you ask men, they like a woman who takes care of themselves. That does not mean they have to be a size 2. They just like a woman who works at trying to take care of herself physically. She does not have to look like something off of television.
The other thing that's a total shocker for most women is that most men do not notice 10 additional pounds. They do not. And women will grieve themselves to death sometime over the 10 pounds that they wish they could lose. Unfortunately, then the number of times that I have had women who have come in over the years and as they age regretted the amount of energy that they spent on worrying about 10 pounds when nobody cared.
I heard a colleague talk about the 15-40-60 rule. [00:14:11] Which, of course, he made up. But at 15, you're all worried about how you look and what people think about you and you think they're talking about you and wondering what they're saying, etc. At 40, you don't care what people are thinking about you as much anymore, and at 60 you realize they're really not talking about you at all and could care less. That you have become a legend in your own mind when you worry about those sorts of things.
So it is taking up space in your head without paying rent because it's certainly not taking up that much space in anyone else's head.
Laura Dugger: I hope that is so freeing for someone to hear today. And if they need some action steps, if they are wrestling with this, it's not somebody else putting that negative image on them, they struggle with it internally, what encouragement would you share with them today?
Vickie George: How comfortable do you feel in your own skin of just you as a person? [00:15:11] Because that's the bottom line. Because plenty of women who will look like models but then feel horrible about themselves and beat themselves up and just self-loathing and so on and so forth, and then others who by Hollywood standards would be 10 to 20 pounds overweight are fine with themselves, enjoy themselves, enjoy a male company, enjoy if they're married, their spouse, etc. and feel very confident.
So it's much more about what's inside and how you think that needs changing than necessarily so much on what is the outside.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Glenn is an award-winning inspirational speaker, gifted performance artist, and author of over 30 incredible books on personal and professional development. Sam Glenn has been honored by being named Speaker of the Year on several occasions by meeting and event organizations, and he won two national awards for his training videos. [00:16:20]
Hundreds of organizations use Sam's videos weekly to kick off their staff meetings and cultivate positivity in their workplace. Sam's experience and longevity in the speaking industry has made him an expert at customizing an unforgettable speech to highlight the positive unforgettables that are meaningful and specific to your organization and your people.
While the themes may be consistent, no two speeches Sam gives are identical. And that is why groups consistently bring him back. Because not only are they confident that they will get the most meaningful message for their group, but also their employees and attendees demand it.
For more information, visit samglenn.com. Sam and his wife Danielle are supporters of The Savvy Sauce, so they have also generously offered a free eBook version of one of Sam's most popular books. You can access it by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on our "resources" tab. I hope that you visit his website today at samglenn.com. Again, that's samglenn.com. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:17:29]
Laura Dugger: How do you recommend renewing your mind in a way that will start to lead into more positive body image?
Vickie George: For a woman, and I think this applies to men as well, but you need to know who you are and whose you are. If you are a person of faith, then do you really believe, do you really feel that God loves you no matter what and created you exactly as you are and said that you are good? Because that is exactly what He did. He talks about how he loves us no matter what. God is an inside-out God. He talks about our heart. That is what He is interested in.
Once again, when our heart is right and we feel good internally, it then becomes outward in our countenance. [00:18:31] And that's what people are attracted to: people who smile, who laugh, who feel good about themselves. And when you know that you were loved by the God of the universe who created you and gave you your personality and your body and said that it was good, then it is good indeed.
Laura Dugger: I love that. And if somebody has never read the Bible before, maybe a great place to start, in the middle of your Bible, Psalm chapter 139. Just reading through that to see that God is the one who created you and indeed does love you right where you're at.
Vickie George: Another one of my favorites that is a little tiny book in the Old Testament, the book of Zephaniah 3:17. It's really great to see how God looks at you. Because it talks about He loves you and He rejoices over you and wants to protect you, etc. [00:19:36]
Rejoicing in that context, in the Hebrew, meant to dance around wildly. So if you think of the God of the universe dancing around wildly about you, that's staggering. That's game-changer if you can really take that in.
Laura Dugger: And that applies to every single one of us listening right now.
Vickie George: That's exactly right. He does not rejoice anymore over the person who looks like a model than the person who may be 40 pounds overweight. He still loves, accepts, and rejoices over. And He hung on the cross for them the exact same amount of time because it's all level there.
Laura Dugger: And that gives everyone a place to begin today starting to renew their mind for body image. We've touched on other things related to sex therapy. [00:20:37] So what other general topics do you see that come into your office that we may not think of related to sex therapy?
Vickie George: Desire issues. A lot of couples will come in and say they're having trouble with desire. and that's a complex issue. They may have trouble with arousal. We see unconsummated marriages and things that people don't really talk about.
Sometimes if they are having fertility issues, if they are having issues with compulsivity, that unwanted compulsivity with masturbation or if they are struggling with same-sex attraction that's unwanted same-sex attraction. Things related to even birth control that can cause issues. Those are just a few of things.
Understanding the differences in men and women in sex is very different. and so they can get at cross-purposes not knowing, once again, the differences between males and females. [00:21:43] Like, for instance, let's just take desire. Assertive desire in men is usually more direct, that they will directly approach their partner in asking for sex. Women, not necessarily. They usually will be a little more alluring and indirect with the way and use their feminine ways to show desire.
Another thing that's different is women are generally... 20% of them are the higher desire, whereas men are 80%. Well, that's a difference just right there between desires. And so it doesn't necessarily mean that one has high desire and the other has no desire. It may be just differences in higher and lower desire. And how do you come to grips with that as a couple and how do you communicate about it?
That's another thing that couples will... because it's tough to talk about sex. People may feel ashamed about it or embarrassed or criticized or not good enough. [00:22:49] I mean, because it's such a vulnerable area for men and women that they can literally make assumptions and they be wrong assumptions and it take on a life of its own.
Laura Dugger: When you talk about assumptions, what are some differences that couples listening today maybe have never heard related to sex therapy?
Vickie George: One of them is that men will be greatly affected in a negative way in their sense of self and masculinity if they do not feel that their wife desires them. So if she does not show desire, especially sexually... and it doesn't mean that she has to initiate all the time, but that she is into it, etc. If men do not feel that, then it affects their sense of self and hurts them.
Of course, for males, they don't talk a lot about her, especially around this area. They will either get angry or they will shut down. [00:23:52] But not feeling desired by their wife is very wounding and how it affects their sense of being a man and feeling like a man.
Another thing, too, is that we have seen in research over the last 10 years is the actual issue of desire in women. One of the things that we are learning is, of course, what Hollywood says is total trash and not really true, that the only type of desire is the type that's taught in Hollywood and that everybody is like that all the time and everybody looks like that and it's Rockets' Red Glare every time. Because it's not. That's not real life.
Real life is a connection and that it's good, sometimes it's great, and then other times it was satisfying but is not Rockets' Red Glare. And sometimes it doesn't look that beautiful and out you're on my arm. You know, that sort of thing is a normal part of real-life sexuality, but that it can still be a connecting and fun time with a couple. [00:24:59]
With women, their desire so often does not come before sex. It comes actually during sex. So, whereas they may be receptive in desire to, okay, sure honey but they aren't really feeling it or into it in the beginning. If men understand she may not have all of that desire at all like I would like beforehand but she's willing, that counts as desire, gentlemen, just so you know.
And then in the middle of it it's like, wow, she... you know, you're getting into it or she's getting into it and enjoying it and oh, wow, that was a really good idea. I'm so glad we did that. That is desire coming in the middle of the sexual experience. And that is much more female.
Laura Dugger: That's such a good clarification. A male, stereotypically, will feel desire and then initiate and there will be stimulation and the arousal is already there. For a female, the desire looks very different because the stimulation may be there before the arousal starts to ramp up. [00:26:07]
Vickie George: That is correct.
Laura Dugger: Okay. Well, in moving on, I remember from our supervision days that you taught me a lot about codependent relationships. If listeners aren't familiar with that term, how would you define codependency? and then maybe share what are some signs if you are in a codependent relationship.
Vickie George: Codependency is a large term that has been thrown around and not a lot of clarity on it. Melody Beatty in her book, Codependent No More gave a very good definition of codependency. Also, Pia Mellody is another person who has written a lot on it. This goes back to 80s. These are some really classic writings that started out in clarifying it. Another one is Claudia Black. So any three of those authors, if you look them up, will have some good books and definitions on codependency. [00:27:06]
It is basically... I'm going to go at it from more of a spiritual perspective or holistic perspective. With a codependent, what they are doing is that they are trying to utilize a person or people to fill up a hole that they have inside.
So it's like they have an H-O-L-E inside that they are utilizing doing for people or expecting from people to fill that up to make them W-H-O-L-E. So they will either do things for people and it's got a motive to it. It's not freely given. It's "I'm going to do this for you so I get something from you." It's a giving to get. And it can be very subtle and it can look very nice and very helpful, but there's an agenda. [00:28:07] And if that agenda is then not met, they are hugely disappointed, they can get angry, depressed, all sorts of things.
The difference between someone who is acting in a way codependently... because they can look like and do for others and be very helpful and serving and all that sort of stuff, but it has agenda to it. Someone who truly wants to help or serve others already feels W-H-O-L-E inside. So the giving or doing for others is outpouring from that wholeness and is given with that spirit to it, so that there's no expectation back. There's no agenda. Codependency is the other. It's a giving to get to fill up the H-O-L-E, servanthood is feeling W-H-O-L-E, giving freely.
Laura Dugger: So how do people move in that direction? [00:29:08]
Vickie George: Well, what needs to happen is how are you internally? How are you feeling about you? What do you need to make you feel W-H-O-L-E? That is healthy, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, socially, vocationally. Those are the things. What is it that uniquely would make you W-H-O-L-E? Looking for things that define what is good health, so to speak, in all of those arenas, that's what makes a W-H-O-L-E person.
Laura Dugger: Here are a few more reviews people have left on iTunes. B.A. Zim says, "Each episode is full of practical tips and encouragement. This podcast is well worth your time." Thank you, B.A. Zim. We are so honored that you took the time to share those words. And not only did you encourage us, but you are also very key in iTunes promoting our podcast because of your five-star rating and review. Thanks so much. [00:30:16]
To break it down to a practical level so that listers can apply some of this today, what are some ways they can become more W-H-O-L-E? Let's hit on emotionally, spiritually, and physically.
Vickie George: Well, let's take the more simple one. Physically, exercise, eating right, you know, the things you've heard, watching sugar intake, alcohol intake, you know, having a complete physical to make sure that is there anything going on in your body that needs attention so that you can operate more whole physically.
Emotionally, that is once again, do you know? What is going on with you? Do you know who you are? Do you know what your emotions are? Are you good at identifying them? Do you know how to deal with them effectively? Do you know how to express them effectively? Do you have good EQ, emotional quotient, okay?
We know from the business world even that EQ is way more successful in the world in general than IQ per se. And if you don't, then that's where counseling can be helpful, reading, etc. [00:31:29] Being and talking to people or hanging out with people that you respect that do know how to deal with their emotions better. Watch them, observe, etc.
It doesn't mean that everybody has to end up in a counseling room. But we have the internet for heaven's sake. We can look everything up in the world.
Laura Dugger: Certainly. I love that you're talking about EQ because that is a learned skill. So there's hope to grow in that.
Vickie George: That's exactly right. And everybody learns and develops EQ. Okay? It's not just an automatic given thing. Everybody learns it. It's easier for women that they're socialized from an earlier age very often to have EQ and that it may seem like it is higher because they've been socialized from an earlier age. So often men have not been, so they're not emotional clods because men are emotional beings as well. It just looks different. It comes out differently. [00:32:29]
They need to grow so that they are emotionally healthy. And it doesn't mean that they have to look like a woman. Growing in your own emotional health does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, giving up your man card.
Laura Dugger: What does it look like for a man to grow in that?
Vickie George: To be able to say the things that he likes or he doesn't like. What makes him feel good about something? What are the things that you enjoy? What are the things that make you angry? Or getting to know the difference between, instead of everything being... making an angry response.
What is underneath anger so often? For most people, and especially for males, anger can be a lot of the time a secondary emotion so that they may be feeling distressed, disappointed, depressed, hurt, disillusioned. [00:33:29] Those can be just a few of things that then get translated into anger automatically for men. It's like a reflex. So knowing what's underneath that and being able to identify it in yourself is helpful for men.
Laura Dugger: That's good. You mentioned the internet earlier. If you even Google "feeling wheel" you can see what the underlying emotion is for one that presents itself like anger that you're just talking about.
Vickie George: One of the things that I do with everybody that comes into my office is I have them go on the internet and I have them search for "feelings with faces" or "emotions with faces". And a ton of them come up. You know, a picture is worth a thousand words.
So, faces that show differing emotions. And there are lots of different… So I have them go and do that and then print off five different ones because not all of them have all the same emotions. And I say, take those and I want you to put them on the refrigerator so that you can look at them at any time or that they're readily available. [00:34:39] If you're not knowing what's going on or you need to have some sort of discussion, and you know it could kind of get heated, that that is right there, that you can look at those and be able to say, hmm, I am feeling agitated, frustrated, a little bit sad, and misunderstood. That helps to clarify and helps then increasing EQ.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Something that we can take and go do right away today.
Vickie George: How you grow in spiritual health is a lot like what you do with physical health. In that you would exercise, etc., and have disciplines in how you eat. The spiritual disciplines, how much time are you sitting and in essence getting to know God, reading the Bible, reading books that authors have written about spiritual things.
Prayer. And it doesn't matter if you don't know how to pray because the Bible talks about how to pray, there are books on how to pray. And the other thing is God listens to you and hears you anyway. You don't have to make it pretty. [00:35:42]
Being in community with other people who their spiritual life is important to them. Bible studies, etc., worship. Those are some of the things that help you know and develop your spiritual muscle just like you would your physical muscle and just like we were talking about. Like the feelings, faces helps you develop your EQ muscle.
Laura Dugger: I love it. It's so good. As we're winding down today, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or insight. And as our final question today, Vickie, what is your savvy sauce?
Vickie George: The word that comes to mind is "intentional". Everything that I've talked about, you have to be intentional about. It is not going to just happen. If you are going to develop anything, you're going to have to be intentional about it. If you even wanted to learn how to ride a bike, you have to be intentional about learning how do I do this and balancing or pedaling or anything along that line. [00:36:52]
What we do has to be intentional. It does not come naturally. It does not just flow into us. So the healthiest people, the happiest people, the people who are the most satisfied in their life and in their relationships are intentional about what they do in making that happen.
Laura Dugger: What's one step somebody could take today to be intentional to grow in one of these areas you've talked about?
Vickie George: Well, since I am a therapist and I'm all about relationships, be intentional with your spouse or partner or boyfriend or children or whoever it is that you are wanting to connect with. That you be intentional in trying to connect with them in communicating something really simple. Like, what you like about them, what you appreciate about them. That is an automatic connecting point. [00:37:55] People feel valued, cared about, important, etc., when you talk about what you like about them.
And see, even for children, the concept of being loved does not make as much sense to them as being liked. That's why when you tell your child, I love you, it's so big or ambiguous, but I really like you or I like this about you, children resonate with that because that's what you learn even in school. Does she like me or not? Will you be my best friend? You know, that kind of thing is about being liked. It has a whole different component to it that feels connecting in a way that kind of is almost salve to the soul.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. And for anyone listening who is local to Atlanta, you are so lucky to have Vickie around the corner. We're going to link to her website in our show notes today. [00:38:57] And if you would like to reach out to her, she is currently receiving new clients and would love to hear from you. Today has been such a gift. Thank you so much for sharing your savvy ways with us.
Vickie George: You are more than welcome.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:40:00] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:41:00]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:42:01]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 21, 2019
Monday Oct 21, 2019
79. Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans
**Transcription Below**
2 Timothy 1:7 (KJV) “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
Ecclesiastes 4:12 “ Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.”
Gary and Marla Ringger have been involved in orphan care since 2003 both professionally and personally. Married 42 years, they have been blessed with 3 daughters and 15 grandchildren, nine by adoption. Gary serves as president of Lifesong for Orphans and Marla works alongside him advocating for orphans and vulnerable children around the world.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Radical Business by Gary Ringger
The Mystery of God’s Will by Charles R. Swindoll
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription Below**
[00:00:00] <Music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:19] <Music>
Laura Dugger: TreStique's mission is to provide a customizable and simple makeup solution for your lifestyle. To do that, they offer high-performance products and travel-friendly, personalized routines that save time and empower you to accomplish your goals and do the things that you love. Visit them today at Trestique.com and use the code savvy15 for $15 off your first order of $50 or more.
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Gary & Marla Ringger are my guests today. They are very special to me for many reasons. But first, because we're related. So our families have grown up near each other and I have witnessed them live a life faithful to God and each other. They're going to share their story today about their journey from business to ministry, and they'll tell how they involved their family in this process along the way.
Gary has recently authored a book titled Radical Business: From Ownership to Stewardship, which I highly recommend. You're going to hear a few takeaways from that book and learn more about their ministry Lifesong for Orphans. Here's our chat.
[00:01:43] Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Gary and Marla.
Marla Ringger: Thanks. It's great to be here, Laura.
Gary Ringger: It's good to be here.
Laura Dugger: So glad to have you join us. Will you just start us off today by giving more context about yourselves and your family?
Marla Ringger: Gary and I have been married for 42 years. We have three daughters and 15 grandchildren. We met through our church youth group, though, all those many years ago. He became a Christian at age 18. I did at 17, and then we just ran in the same circles. And God just knew that I needed Gary and I think he needed me as well.
Gary Ringger: I would also add to that that 9 of our 15 grandkids are adopted. Marla and I never adopted, but as we'll talk about later, we started an adoption ministry and our kids have really taken that up. So it's been a journey. We hadn't expected to have 15 grandkids, 9 of them being adopted.
Marla Ringger: And actually we're a multicultural family because we have one grandson from Guatemala, we have two grandchildren from China, three grandchildren adopted through foster care, a little boy named Friday from Uganda, and then our daughter, Leslie has two teenagers living with her from Zambia that are part of our family. So they are part of that mix.
Laura Dugger: [00:03:11] That's incredible. And your story has so many unexpected twists and turns. We're going to hear more about that today. Will you just give us some background on your journey into Radical Business?
Gary Ringger: Yeah. So I started out as a college kid. And just getting out of college, I should say, I was a scared kid, not knowing what to do. I went to work for Dad. He had this small family feed business. I didn't know what else to do, so I went to work for Dad.
But early on in that, I learned that I really liked business. So by the time I was in my early 30s, I decided that we had good success in the feed business, I want to start a second business. I had gone to Kraft Plant in Champaign, Illinois, and I saw the different rooms of different processes, and I was really impressed by the opportunity to be in the food business.
So I started looking around to start another business. Our feed company at that point was called Ringger Feeds. So I started the second business called The Ringger Foods. And I told Marla that this is going to be really big. We're going to get rich and I'm going to retire at 40. That was what I was thinking.
But as we started that business, again, Ringger Feeds had had some success and I was pretty self-confident. But now starting Ringger Foods, pretty much immediately from the beginning, we were losing money. And I was realizing I was making people food instead of pig food, and I was realizing I didn't know how to do that and I started freaking out, if you will, about food safety.
So just started eating at me. And night after night, about one, two in the morning, I would wake up in a cold sweat, heart beating in my head, and I would lay there thinking all kinds of dark thoughts like, "God forbid, we're going to kill somebody." And then because I wasn't sleeping—and this lasted for 3 to 5 months—I got to the point where I was sleep deprived and then depression and desperation hit.
Marla Ringger: We had three little girls at the time. I know Gary was struggling at times but for me, it wasn't this real awareness of what he was going through, because I think he kept it in a lot. But I do remember one night, especially when he woke up and he was just in a cold sweat and he just said, "Marla, you just got to pray for me." So we got down on our knees and I prayed for him.
So I knew he was really going through something but I was so preoccupied with the girls at the time that it wasn't an ongoing thing for me, but it definitely was bigger to him.
Laura Dugger: [00:05:56] And I think a lot of couples can relate to that. Because at this point, how old were your girls?
Marla Ringger: Oh, they were probably six, four, and two.
Laura Dugger: So you were very hands-on at that point.
Marla Ringger: Yes.
Laura Dugger: And Gary, you kind of internalize some of this more-
Gary Ringger: Yeah, I internalized it. And it really taught me even for wives to know their husband if they're being stressed out. I was sleep-deprived. So it taught me how fine that line is between doing well and being a mess. I mean, I was never close to committing suicide because of my fear of God, but I actually had thoughts like that. I cried a lot. I was just a mess.
But it was really a great experience in general because God was breaking of me that goal to get rich and retire at 40. So ultimately, as I would be crying out in desperation and praying to God at night, I felt my mind shift. I wanted to quit, but I didn't feel peace about that. I wanted to quit Ringger Foods, Ringger Feeds was doing great, so let's just quit Ringger Foods. But I didn't feel peace about
And ultimately, what I felt God directing is to have a different paradigm about business. And that led to just a handwritten contract. It was a contract that basically said, God, if this business ever succeeds, and at that point, it was a failure, God, if this business ever succeeds and we sell it, we'll pay ourselves back what we invested with 8% interest, anything over and above that will be used for ministry purposes. And that contract was life-changing. That changed my whole paradigm on business, and if you will, lead me into Radical Business.
Laura Dugger: [00:07:39] I love those stories. And I think both of you are great storytellers. I want listeners to hear how did God meet you personally, through the Reader's Digest article?
Gary Ringger: I'm gonna preface that with saying, right after the contract-
Marla Ringger: You should tell to that you wrote this contract down on a notebook paper, like a spiral notebook sheet of paper that he pulled out, ripped out, and he just signed exactly what he had said earlier, and he had a space for his dad to sign who was half owner, and that he signed. That was as simple as it was.
Gary Ringger: But what happened then, my fear... that now I'm in a more of a tangible partnership with God. So when you're in depression, you don't get into it right away, you don't get out of it right away. So I'm still a mess and still have a business, I don't know what I'm doing, but every morning I got up and I got into this pattern. We're fortunate in that we have a hot tub right outside our bedroom, and I get into the hot tub and I start thinking through the Lord's Prayer.
And when I would get to "give us today our daily bread", I would start asking God, what do I do about this? What do I do about that? I had never really prayed that much about business before, and I think that was because my motives were wrong. You know, how do you say, God help me with this business so I can get rich and retire? But now I'm struggling. I'm in this tangible partnership with Him.
[00:09:07] So I started asking Him and started hearing Him in ways more direct ways than I ever had before. And that leads to your question on Reader's Digest. At one point later in the journey, Ringger Foods was starting to become successful. We were starting to do well and Nestlé had asked us to cook some cookies for them.
So we were cooking products for them and we were running through some issues. One of the great things about those big companies, they really guide us. They really helped us know what we were doing and they had their technical people. And they were setting up some technical people to help us do this well.
Well, roughly 5 minutes before three technical people from Nestlé walked in our door, I get a call from our quality assurance young lady, and she was crying. They had just tested the product that we were making for Nestlé and it had the potential of having listeria, which is a bacteria that can be fatal. And she was crying. She said, "We may have listeria in this product." And then they walked in.
So I'm, by nature, transparent and so I was shaken and I was crying. But I just shared with them what happened. They were great. They'd been there, seen it all before. And they explained to me that what you have is the first test and you now need to take a second test to confirm it. So we didn't know we really had a problem or not.
So we said, okay, we'll test it. And they were going to guide us through the issue. I went home and told Marla, "I think this is the end of Ringger Foods." I just felt that way. And she was kind of used to me up and down. And she said, "Nah." She said, "You just go relax, go and get relax." So I did.
And what was really interesting, on the Reader's Digest the day before, I had been reading a story in the Reader's Digest, which is not exactly a spiritual book, but it was good stories. And this particular story was written from a secular view, but they were talking about how prayer changes things. The day before I had started it, they were talking about people being prayed for in hospitals and stuff like that.
Laura, the couple sentences after I started reading again, it had this basically sentence and they said, "Even more astounding than this is they have found that prayer can change bacteria results in laboratories." I was like, wow. Because here I am just thinking everything is falling apart because we're waiting on this, we're going to wait on this bacteria result from a laboratory. And I've never read anything like that before or after.
Laura Dugger: [00:12:07] Yeah, God is so personal.
Gary Ringger: So I called up some friends and said, "We're supposed to pray." And that's what happened. A couple of days later, it came back fine. So I don't know for sure how He worked that, but I do know He talked to me very personally there. I love, like you said, it's a personal touch. Yes.
Laura Dugger: [00:12:29] Absolutely. It's so touching to hear those stories. There was two things going on at the same time. You're raising your family, you're doing all of this with business. Marla, what was your day-to-day looking like at this point?
Marla Ringger: I was just a busy mom. I wasn't a homeschooler, so, you know, by the time they went into school, I had free days that I... I was a stay-at-home mom. And so Gary was... he had this career and this was my career. I just trusted him a lot with business decisions. I think that's also part of our... He would tell me about things and I would listen but I left the decisions on business up to him because he pretty much left the running of the household up to me.
Gary Ringger: She was always very supportive.
Marla Ringger: I was supportive, yeah. I rarely questioned... once in a while, but rarely.
Gary Ringger: And if I was going up and down, which I have a tendency to do, she was more the rock, if you will. Things didn't stress her up like they did me.
Marla Ringger: But then I also wasn't living that stress like he was.
Laura Dugger: [00:13:41] But it sounds like prayer was really important to both of you, that that's something maybe that you united you through all of it.
Marla Ringger: Definitely. And I noticed a big difference in him and with his relationship with the Lord because of the struggle and actually prompted me to... I mean, we both love our quiet time. We both love our mornings where we just are quiet with the Lord on our own. It's always been a real... that part's been a real joy.
Gary Ringger: Yeah. And I would say prior to the contract, prayer was a discipline. I mean, I did it and I was a believer. But after the contract and I started going through that and experiencing God in more tangible ways, it became my favorite part of the day. And it was more of a relaxed prayer sitting in the hot tub, sometimes falling asleep. Before it was more like on my knees, 5 minutes. And if my mind wanders, slap my hand, I can't do that.
Now, it's a 45-minute, two-hour time with the Lord, with my best friend every morning. It just became my favorite part of the day and still is.
Laura Dugger: [00:14:49] Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors.
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Laura Dugger: [00:17:13] So it sounds like prayer really united both of you together during this whole process. But let's also expand the topic a little bit more to parenting too because you had three girls. Was prayer important to them during this process as well?
Marla Ringger: Yeah. We were pretty authentic with our kids. I mean, we just basically would tell it like it is. So when we had them pray, we really wanted them to pray their hearts. We didn't do the rote prayers that often. We probably started that way.
And it was really neat because at times Gary when he would come home stressed or he knew he had a business decision to make, he would actually go to the girls. I mean, all through their childhood and he would ask them to pray for him on this certain business decision. And it really tied our family together because they took an interest in what he was going through.
Gary Ringger: And I would say two things on that. One is, later at our 25th anniversary, they wrote a book and basically-
Marla Ringger: 40 things I love about mom and dad.
Gary Ringger: Mom and dad. And what was interesting, because I remember when I was going through the ups and downs and struggling, like Marla says, sharing with them, they really appreciated that because it showed them the realness. And then when cool things happen, like the Reader's Digest thing, they would know that, too.
[00:18:44] One other thing I will say, I mean, during that time, there were times where I was so focused on the business that I was not into it the way I should have been with my family. I mean, I was always faithful, but I was really… my mind would be away sometimes. I'd be there, but I wouldn't be there.
But the one thing I did do right was I always put the three girls to bed. That was my job. And I would stand... We had two bedrooms, two girls in one and one in the other bedroom. And I would play the guitar and I'd sing songs and they'd have their favorites. Then I pray with them. And then while they were little, I would lay down with them. I'd a lot of times fall asleep.
But what I found is that kids when they go to bed is a very tender time, and that's when you can reach them. And we would always say, "What's the most important thing that you're going to do when you grow up?" And that's to repent and give your life to the Lord. That was a nightly thing that we would say, you know. And then they would pray, "God give me grace, that when it's the right time that I will give my life to the Lord in a meaningful way."
I always told them, "As long as you're praying that day by day, you're going to know when the right time to give your life to the Lord and He'll be faithful." So it was a great thing.
Marla Ringger: [00:20:02] And thankfully, we weren't living in a vacuum. We had close friends who raised their kids very similar to the way we did. So there was that positive peer pressure for our kids with families who we all wanted that same thing. So there wasn't a lot of that pulling away because somebody gets to do something they didn't. So I mean, we weren't unique in that. Our dear friends raised their kids very similarly as we all tried to do. Because we had that one goal was that they grow to know the Lord, right, personally.
Gary Ringger: That was just the thing that every night... in my routine with them, nothing else matters outside of that. If you do give your life to the Lord, that's the whole thing.
Marla Ringger: And I remember one instance in particular when... this was back when we were still working with the feeds business because we were traveling to... Right? Wasn't that what the feed business when we traveled to Holland and we were going to fly overseas and we were sitting at the dinner table? And I still remember Leslie, she was probably in fourth grade, and her eyes got wide when she knew we were going to fly over the ocean and it kind of freaked her out. And she says, "What if the plane crashes?"
Gary Ringger: And I was frankly freaking out about that a little myself because it was my first flight overseas.
Marla Ringger: [00:21:24] And it happened that just that week or the week before, Dr. Dobson had his heart attack. I was an avid listener of Focus on the Family. And he was being wheeled into surgery and his son Ryan was there. And he told his son, Ryan, he said, "I don't know what's going to happen, if I'm going to come out of this or not. But the most important thing to me is that you will be there in heaven so that when I am there, I will see you there too." And so "be there" kind of became our family motto.
Gary Ringger: Yes. And the way we said goodnight, "Goodnight, and I love you. Be there." That's always the way we said good night.
Marla Ringger: You know, I'm telling you, we told the girls that. Just the most important thing is that you'd be there. So heaven forbid our plane won't crash, but if it does, you remember to be there in heaven. And yeah, Leslie especially... well, all of them-
Gary Ringger: Yeah, still do that. And my license plate is "be there five" because there were five of us.
Marla Ringger: "Goodnight. I love you. Be there." That's all. Those would be the last things we'd hear every night before they go to bed. So that was kind of a sweet memory.
Laura Dugger: [00:22:28] That is so memorable. Be there. And like you said, any parent can relate to that. That's the ultimate goal.
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Laura Dugger: [00:23:13] Let's switch back to your book. Because in your book you mention that God's timing is perfect. So do you have a story that you could use to illustrate that thought?
Gary Ringger: Yes. So a story that relates to my dear wife, since we're talking about the whole relationship, as this time went by, Ringger Foods started to become successful and I started getting offers periodically to sell the company. And at one point there was an offer that I was interested in but Marla was not. And we had it as just a standard: if there's anything major, we're not going to do this unless we're in agreement, in peace with it.
So one night, frankly, we were on the way to church and we went by our plant and I looked at Marla and I said, "I'm mad at you." She goes, "What? Why are you mad at me?" And I said, "Because I want to sell the company and you're not at peace with it. We have basically three customers. If we lose one of those customers, we're in trouble." And Mara said, "Oh, Gary, you'll figure it out." And I said, "Yeah, easy for you to say." So that was our little conversation. I wasn't really mad at her, but I was just frustrated.
Well, within that week I was on a plane going down to visit one of these customers, and I was in the plane 30,000 feet up reading a book by Chuck Swindoll, and it was called The Mystery of God's Will. And the reason why I was reading that, I'm still searching this out. I'm trying to figure out what God wants us to do.
But as I read, I read it, it was a chapter he was talking about fear. And as he was talking about that, 1 Timothy came to mind where it says, "God is not the spirit of fear, but He's a spirit of power and love and a sound mind. And I knew there I just... you know, sometimes where you can read and you just know God's talking. I knew He's talking to me. I knew I wanted to sell because of fear. So I just a peace about it.
So I did my business, I checked in the hotel and I called up Marla. She answered, and I said, "Hey, babe, I got something to share with you." And she said, "Wait, I've got something to share with you." I'll let her share what she shared.
Marla Ringger: [00:25:25] Well, just that morning I had listened to Focus on the Family, and lo and behold, Chuck Swindoll was being interviewed on his book, The Mystery of God's Will, and he talked about fear and that fear should not keep you from doing what God is calling you to do or you shouldn't react out of fear because of that verse that Gary just quoted.
Gary Ringger: So it was just like, wow, God spoke the same verse, the same messenger. And then she said, kind of real cute to me and "I don't want you to be mad at me, but I'll support you whatever you want to do. But I don't want you selling out of fear." And then I was able to share, you know, how God spoke to us together. So we never looked back.
But the reason why that's perfect timing is what was cool is that company was going to give us a certain amount down and then the answer would come. I was going to stay working for them for like four or five years.
Well, what happened within a year or two, that company went broke, so we would have just got the first payment. And what happened within two years of that, God opened the doors in a very plain way when Marla was at peace, we had been praying about it. He opened it in a clear way that if I wouldn't listen to my dear wife and if she wouldn't have been listening and just not at peace with it, and if he wouldn't have spoken to us in the way He did, a life song for our friends would have never happened because we would have sold at the wrong time. So he's got perfect timing. But we have to listen.
Laura Dugger: That's right. It makes me think of the threefold cord. That is not easy to tear apart when you have the married couple and God involved in this. So I think this is a story that illustrates a healthy marriage. I'm just curious, how did the two of you work together and how would you advise couples to do the same?
Gary Ringger: Oh, from my perspective, one was that rule we had. I mean, there were things that we disagreed on. And if I wanted to buy red socks instead of black socks, I could do that. But anything major we wouldn't do without being at peace with it. I also think just as the civil... like we've always said, the prayer, even have... a lot of couples do this: they pray together. And I think that's great. But ours was more of... I think we stimulated each other to pray more and have more of a quiet time together than we would have on our own. And I think that was something that it worked.
Marla Ringger: [00:27:59] I also think that there were... Like, just for instance, when he wanted to sell the business and I didn't have peace, it wasn't even something I prayed about right then. I just knew that I didn't feel peace about that. And then when the time came to sell the business to the right company, I knew... I mean, of course, we committed that to prayer, but I just knew intuitively that that's what we were supposed to do.
And I feel like even on big decisions, you know, God directs our steps. So sometimes we just are walking through life and He is directing the way we're going. And it doesn't always have to be a specific prayer request. But He just opens doors, He shuts doors. I just think we just kind of walk and do. And if we are committing our lives to Him, He is directing the way we're going. And sometimes it's actually as simple as that.
Gary Ringger: It's been quite an adventure. And I think early on I had this view, once I got going The Ringger Feeds, I thought that'd be where I retire. But we have really learned. I tell people to hold your life with an open hand and just really be open to where God is leading, and it will be... who knows what may turn up? I wasn't expecting to do what I'm doing, that's for sure.
Marla Ringger: I never expected this.
Laura Dugger: [00:29:23] Well, let's pick up with that part of the story then. You didn't sell to that first company. What happened next?
Gary Ringger: So we did sell to this company-
Marla Ringger: To the next company.
Gary Ringger: To the next company. And then all of a sudden we had this money that was more than we'd ever had that we had committed to give for ministry. I talked to a friend and mentor of mine, and I said, "What?" His name is Clay. I said, "Clay, what do we do with this money?" And he said, "Be focused and involved. Don't just write checks. Be focused and involved." Also, he said, "And dream big. That way if it happens big, then you know it's God and not you."
So I like that. And we're used to this daily prayer. So we start asking God, what did He want us to focus on. One of our data points was a memory that had happened years ago that I'll let Marla explain.
Marla Ringger: A young couple in church, probably 20 years ago, was adopting a little boy from Korea, Daryn and Maria. And she had had cancer before she was married and so wasn't able to have children biologically. We were just chatting in the back hall and she was telling me how much it was going to cost for them to bring this little boy home.
And I went home that day and I just said, "Gary, no young couple should have to go into debt to have a child, to adopt a child especially." She had told me how much it was going to be. We committed to helping them with that cost that time. And it was just so cool because we had a vested interest in this little boy that came home from Korea.
[00:31:08] So we would notice him in church and it was just a real blessing in our life being able to help them. And it just sort of evolved into why don't we help other adoptive families with financial assistance who are trying to adopt?
Gary Ringger: And from a business guy's perspective, it made sense to me. But it's costly to adopt. But then you're in the God's plan family and there's no ongoing cost. The family pays for that. So it was that and several other things that led us into starting helping folks adopt. And it's been a great journey.
Marla Ringger: And it's interesting because like Gary said earlier, neither of us have adopted, but our children all have taken up that banner.
Gary Ringger: Now we have nine adopted grandkids.
Marla Ringger: Nine adopted grandkids. So yeah.
Laura Dugger: [00:31:57] And so from that point on, how did God expand your initial goal from creating this family foundation to then use Lifesong for Orphans for so much more than you could have ever asked or imagined?
Gary Ringger: It has been quite a journey. But originally, as you said, my goal when we first started doing these adoption grants was strictly our family foundation. And we had a small budget. We were helping what we could. But through that work we got introduced to a lady who was starting a ministry in Ukraine, and ultimately she asked us to go over to Ukraine. We saw the ministry that was happening there. We were excited about it and we came home feeling convicted that we should help with that.
But I knew that if we started helping that it was bigger than our little foundation. Marla and me were both... I'm the business guy. I make money. I don't ask for money. If we did this, we were gonna start asking for help. Marla always handle charity. She didn't know how she felt about it. My dad, who's always been a great mentor, he said, "You know, you don't have to twist people's arms. Just ask them to come alongside." And it kind of reached a-
Marla Ringger: He said, "You don't have to twist people's arms. You just have to tell them the story."
Gary Ringger: Tell them the story. And then they can come alongside. And it kind of reached a kind of a turning point was Dad's advice. Plus, it was on a short seven-minute, eight-minute trip from my house to the office where I don't know if you remember Rich Mullins, but he was singing a song help me, Jesus, I'm shaking like a leaf. And that's kind of where I felt.
And I was feeling just kind of overwhelmed by the thought. And I felt, if you will, in repentance, I felt God was saying "you have spiritual pride about your family foundation". This is not your family. It's my family. And you need to let go." So I let go. And what happened was I wanted it to be a family foundation because I wanted my kids involved. They are way more involved than myself.
Marla Ringger: Yeah, they're way more involved.
Gary Ringger: [00:34:17] And Lifesong has become way bigger than what we thought or have helped. Now, roughly 8,000 kids adopted and there's roughly 8,000 kids in orphan care ministries. It's just been way more than what we ever expected. And we've met... It's really expanded our view of the family of God, too. We've met so many Christian believers. And I think-
Marla Ringger: To me, that was a huge blessing because it totally God out of the box I had Him in when I met believers from all over the world. And even just processing applications from adoptive families, reading their stories and the sacrifices they were making to adopt and the types of children with special needs that they were adopting. I mean, it totally made my whole picture of the family of God or God's family global, you know. It really changed my... It just really changed me. It changed both of us.
Gary Ringger: It changed me in the sense... I tell people, you know, I've been broken many times. Apostle Paul said, "I die daily." But I have had two major times where I have had God broke me that we've talked about here today. And I would say it's made me even when I see grandkids and kids go through things, it makes me not get too worried about that because I know we got to go through some hard times for God. For me, I don't let go and really trust Him unless I'm in trouble.
Laura Dugger: [00:35:54] I think we can relate to that. And even with this story, it just goes back to one of your mentor's quotes about dreaming big and that way if it happens you know is God-
Gary Ringger: And we know it was God.
Marla Ringger: We know it was God. We know it was God.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Well, is there any last thought or action step that you would like to recommend to each listener today, both for Radical Business and Radical Parenting?
Gary Ringger: Well, I would say from my perspective, what has been life-changing for me is the quiet time in the morning. That has been the key to my change of getting to know Jesus in a much more personal way. That's been life-changing for me.
Marla Ringger: Well, I would say, first of all, support your husband. But second of all, I would say, don't be too hard on yourself as a mom, especially with young children. I was most consistent at being inconsistent. And we laugh about that today. But my kids have appreciated that fact about the way we raised them. So we didn't do everything right.
Laura Dugger: [00:37:01] That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. And if anybody listening today wants to get involved further, whether that's reading your book Radical Business or learning more about Lifesong for Orphans, where do we direct them?
Gary Ringger: Just go to Lifesong for Orphans. Our whole goal is to help other people get involved. So feel free to check that out. As far as the book, you can get that on the Lifesong website. There's also a radicalbusiness.co website as well.
Marla Ringger: And you can also get it on Amazon. And if you email info@lifesong.org, you can ask any question. You can ask for a book, you can ask how to get more involved. But definitely go to our website lifesong.org.
Laura Dugger: [00:37:45] Perfect. We'll link to all of that in our show notes and on our resources page so it makes it easy in case somebody is driving and they can't take notes right now. But our listeners know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question today, what is your savvy source?
Marla Ringger: Well, my favorite Bible verse or one of them, I have several, but one of my favorites is be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven you. I just think kindness is very much missing in our culture and in our society today. So I have a little plaque that I look at often. It says, "Be kinder than you feel." So I think savvy sauce would be "Be kind."
Laura Dugger: Well done. Be kinder than you feel.
Gary Ringger: I guess I've already said it. My main savvy sauce would be a quiet time with the Lord and then just embrace an adventure. Don't be afraid to take risks, because if you're in that day-to-day relationship with the Lord, then you're safe.
Laura Dugger: [00:38:50] Well. I've said this before, but I found it such a blessing to get to be related to both of you and your amazing family. And this time was just so energizing. And I appreciate your story of faith and obedience, which has certainly stirred my heart today. So thanks for being my guest.
Gary Ringger: And thank you.
Marla Ringger: Aw, thanks, Laura. It's been fun.
Laura Dugger: [00:39:12] One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
[00:41:10] At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 14, 2019
Monday Oct 14, 2019
*Disclaimer: This episode contains mild thematic material and is intended for mature listeners only*
78. Parenting the Prodigal Child And God’s Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin
**Transcription Below**
“Am I now trying to win the favor and approval of men, or of God? Or am I seeking to please someone? If I were still trying to be popular with men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.”
Galatians 1:10 (Amp)
Claire Stanfill is an Atlanta native, married to Tom for 36 years. They have 4 married children and 12 grandkids. She was a stay at home mom but now is an empty nester, even though she still stays ever so busy with family. Claire loves to do anything creative, sit on the beach, and enjoy quiet days at home where she can recharge.
Tindell Baldwin has a heart for teenagers to see the ugly side of sin and the amazing redemptive power of a Savior who desperately loves them. She is author of “Popular: Boys, Booze, and Jesus” where she tells her honest account of a life without God and the lies she believed that lead her to search for fulfillment and acceptance at any cost. She volunteers as a small group leader for high school girls at her church. Her love of writing and truth is only matched by her love for her family and most days you can find her at home with her three kids and husband in Marietta, GA (and baby #4 is on the way!!!). For more about Tindell and her ministry visit, www.tindellbaldwin.com
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Connect on Socials: @tindellgrace @clairestanfill
Jesus paid it all, sung by Kristian Stanfill
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:01] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
It's fun to have our first mother-daughter duo as guests. I know you will enjoy this vulnerable chat with Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin. Whether you're a teenager currently or you're parenting a teen, this chat is for you. Prepare to hear the wisdom that comes after seasons of heartache and to be inspired by God's story of redemption.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Claire and Tindell.
Claire Stanfill: Thank you.
Tindell Baldwin: Thank you. Glad to be here. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start by having both of you introduce yourselves and then give us a snapshot of who you are. So, Claire, you are the mother here. We're going to start with you.
Claire Stanfill: I've lived in Atlanta all my life and my husband has too. At 18, I was saved but still had a very rebellious spirit. So went away to college and was in and out of my walk. I got pregnant after dating my husband now for a few weeks and we were married three weeks later. So we had known each other approximately six weeks. Crazy.
Now we've been married 36 years and we had four children in six and a half years. Now we're empty nesters. So we've come full circle. All my children live in Atlanta, all four of them, and I get to see them a lot. We have 12 grandkids. Right now I'm caring for my mom, who's older and struggling, so that's kind of my focus, my family, my kids, my grandkids, whoever needs me. [00:02:22]
Laura Dugger: Tindell, what about you?
Tindell Baldwin: Born and raised in Marietta, just a little bit outside of Atlanta. Had three brothers. Went to Auburn for college. That's where my husband and I met. And I was saved at Auburn freshman year of college. We've been married almost 10 years now and have three kids: Claire, named after my mom actually, is six, Briggs is four and a half, and Colby is our spunky two-year-old.
Out of college, I kind of realized that because of my life's journey and when I became a Christian, I really loved helping teenagers. So shortly after graduating, I started writing a book for teenagers, just my story of becoming a Christian. When I was 25, it got published. It's called Popular.
For the past eight or so years, I've been doing high school ministry in some way, shape, or form, speaking, writing. I have a group of high school girls at our church and that's kind of what I love doing. But my main gig is mom of three. I stay home with them and kind of do the other stuff on the side, but love getting to be a Mom to my little ones. [00:03:27] Yes. Yeah.
Laura Dugger: Love it. Your book was incredible. You are a gifted writer. You two have just been on quite the journey and I think you're going to encourage so many parents and teenagers today. So, Tindell, let's go back to your memoir that you wrote about growing up in a wealthy suburb outside of Atlanta, like you mentioned, and all these pressures that you faced. I really appreciate your willingness to be so transparent. So will you just share a bit of your story with us?
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah. So for me being raised in a Christian family, I had an understanding of God. I knew who God was, but I more knew who He was in my family's life. Not so much maybe in my life. I kind of looked at God like Santa Claus. Like I asked Him for things and when He didn't deliver, I kind of stopped believing.
Growing up with three brothers who were super achieving, I kind of didn't know where I fit into the mix. So my answer was to rebel and kind of go my own way. I was like, "If I can't be as good as them, I'll kind of do my own thing." So I thought the best way to do this would be to chase popularity. [00:04:33] I wanted the classic kind of high school things. I wanted to go to the parties. I wanted to have a boyfriend. I wanted to have the big group of friends.
So I kind of decided freshman year of high school that I was going to chase after that, no matter the cost. And so I did for three-plus years. Or really, no. More. Like five. Chased after being popular, being accepted, and everything that that looked like in high school.
It took me down super dark roads. And that's why I was kind of driven to write the book, is because I felt like there wasn't a great portrayal of what high school actually looked like running away from Jesus and the really dark side of sin. And so I wanted to give my school girls, especially an honest account of what it looked like to walk away from the Lord and what it looked like to actually pursue those things and what it looked like to be really entangled in sin.
Because I went from, you know, growing up in a great Christian home at 15, still going to church, and then by 18 my life was pretty much a total train wreck. I was pretty much addicted to alcohol. I was smoking weed every day before school. I've been sleeping with my boyfriend and that had led to a breakup and heartbreak and then just continually giving my body away as a way to try to get love. [00:05:38]
I just went down all these avenues basically looking for love and acceptance and hoping that they would satisfy and fulfill. And they didn't. I felt like I had this secret, like this understanding of what it actually looked like to walk away from God. I didn't feel like that was being portrayed accurately to high schoolers. You know, media and now social media portrays that lifestyle as just so fulfilling and wonderful and like you get all these things that you want. And I just felt like I had an in. Like I knew that that wasn't true and I wanted girls to see that.
Laura Dugger: So even when you were in it... so you achieved these things. You were popular, you had the boyfriend, had all the things that you were pursuing. Even in those moments in high school, did you know that you weren't satisfied?
Tindell Baldwin: Again, it was temporary. I could feel good quickly or I could feel better right now but it was only induced by substances or parties or boys. When I sat with myself, when I sat alone, or when I sat to journal, the only thing that came out was pain. It was so temporary and fake. You know, I always worry about losing my social standing. It's like, yeah, I was popular, but if they stopped liking me, I wouldn't be popular anymore. It's like, yeah, I had a boyfriend, but he could break up with me any day. [00:06:47] And like, yeah, some people thought I was pretty, but that could go away too.
Everything felt so like I was living on the edge of falling off at any moment. So I think when I would sit back and reflect, I knew, but I mean, there was enough distraction to stay satisfied for as long as I needed to.
Laura Dugger: That's well said. I think a lot of teenage girls maybe are relating to that and they're in that season right now. I'd love to transition to you, Claire, as the mom. Let's hear your side now as we just go back a few years to when she was a teenager and life started changing in your household. What was your first red flag that you were going to be facing new issues with your daughter that you had never encountered before with your sons?
Claire Stanfill: Right. It's crazy. My past almost completely mirrored Tindell's. Before we even discovered anything, I felt her slipping away, I felt her not wanting to communicate with me as she had always. I almost was in denial because I was so afraid she was going to do what I did. [00:07:54] I was so afraid to speak up and say, "I've been there, Tindell. This is going to lead to a dead end of pain and consequences."
So I kept it to myself a lot, but the signals got very strong. I mean, first, a friend of hers came over and showed us that Tindell had a water bottle filled with vodka. I mean obviously, that's a tremendous change in our daughter and the direction she's going. Her clothes, her friends, her music, and in general just her spirit, all you could tell we're going down into a dark place.
She was dressing very provocatively. She was making fun of our Christian walk or music. In fact, we would go on trips, and in the car we would usually play like an Andy Stanley sermon or whoever, and Tindell was really good at putting her earphones on, but cranking her music up, which was rap, as loud as she could. [00:09:06] So with the sermon, we heard the rap. It was like Andy versus rap.
We knew we just had to let her find her way and not shove it down her throat. But we knew what was going on. The boys told us, "This is what we see. This is what we hear." Then I got a couple of phone calls from people telling me things. And there again, I was somewhat in denial, but then when the vodka appeared, you know, it was like, Okay, we're in this.
Laura Dugger: That's one of the first times it became real.
Claire Stanfill: Yes, very.
Laura Dugger: What did your conversations and prayer life even look like behind closed doors with your husband or with your friends and mentors during this time when it seemed like nobody could get through to your daughter?
Claire Stanfill: You know, I felt like we were truly in a tug-of-war with Satan. The more we pulled, the more our feet seemed to lose ground. Coming down hard on Tindell, it didn't seem to open her eyes at all. [00:10:06] I spent tons and tons of time on my knees and just begging God to give me the intuition, the insight for the Holy Spirit to really speak to me.
I think because I had actually lived through it myself, I knew when things weren't right. And I just was begging God to really show me and help me catch her, help me prevent terrible things from happening. I was begging Him to bring her back to His fold, to love her back in, and for her heart to turn. But truly, it was evil against good.
Tindell Baldwin: And I got to the point, she would actually warn me not to do something, and because she had been right enough times, I would like... she was like, "Don't go to that party," and I mean, everyone at the party would get arrested. It got to the point where I was like, "I don't know if I believe in this God thing, but you got something that I have to trust because she would, I mean, be right without fail. It was crazy.
Claire Stanfill: When that developed, it was slowly, but surely Tindell would see that happen and she was willing to say, Okay, maybe I shouldn't go do that. [00:11:11] So that was later. In the beginning, she was figuring out ways to fool us, leaving the house in one outfit, with another outfit that was so tiny it fit into her purse.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm just wondering, as a mom, what was that like when you knew, let's use that example, you knew that she was going to be changing. Was that emotional for you, or how did you even start to release control of that?
Claire Stanfill: Yes, great question. We realized that coming down on the little things like her outfits might be fruitless and push her farther away. Our whole goal was to nurture and develop a relationship with her, no matter what she was doing. Of course, she was punished. We got very creative with every time we caught her, and that was very often. But we were just so focused on, "We want you, Tindell, to know we love you like God loves you and you can do anything and we're still going to love you. Yes, you're breaking our heart, but our heart is still for you." [00:12:17]
Laura Dugger: There's so much wisdom there. And I'm wondering for you, Tindell, was it harder when your parents came down on you and punished you or was it harder when they extended grace?
Tindell Baldwin: Oh, what a great question. It was for sure harder when they extended grace. Because when they came down on me, I could be angry. When they extended grace, like, what are you going to be angry about with grace? I mean, they always were trying to maintain a relationship with me. That was always clear. And they also, towards the end of high school, were just trying to save my life.
So things like my outfit were the least of their concerns as much as like, "we want you to come home alive." Their ongoing grace and unconditional love are markers in my mind of that period of my life.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. Was there any hope that was given to you during this season or advice or scripture that you clung to?
Claire Stanfill: Lots. We did get lots of advice from well-meaning friends and family. Most of the time they were saying we were doing everything wrong, we needed to do this. And this was people that hadn't really had experience with this anyway. [00:13:23] So we had to choose who we listened to.
I did get hope in the fact that God was speaking to me, just assuring me that He had her. And it was an overwhelming feeling. There were many days, don't get me wrong, that I was like, Okay, this is going to end terrible. Because like Tindell said, we were at certain times trying to save her life. She became so depressed and things like that.
But there just were glimmers of hope that either she would open up to us... You know, we would have a fun family time or something that just enabled us to think, Okay, there's the Tindell we know. I held on to quite a few scriptures, and one of them was from Matthew, Come to me all you who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest. And I know everybody knows that, but I felt a tremendous weight as the mom.
I feel like Satan was using the fact that I had not shared where I had been in my past, constantly bringing that up to my face, going, "Well, you did it. She's going to do it and there's nothing you can do. What you're doing is not good enough. This is going to end up in a complete disaster." [00:14:41]
I mean, there were times we had no hope, but yet that's when I just went to scripture. And the lies are thrown at you right and left. I really learned to take a thought captive. And those were usually lies. and to then replace that thought with a truth, which is scripture.
I would turn on worship music. Anything I could do to turn my mind around. Because I know as just a mom, women, we're emotional and our emotions can so direct how we handle things. I really did spend hours on my knees and in the Word.
Well, I also got hope, interestingly enough, from our oldest son, Kristian, who was engaged to Kerri. She was living in our house when all this was going on. And thankfully, Tindell really leaned into Kerri and shared a lot of what was going on. So Kerri had a little more insight. Tindell was very real with her. But Kerri kept telling me, It's going to be okay, Claire. This is going to end well. [00:15:51]
She has a great intuition and insight and understanding. She's just a wonderful, godly wife and woman. The more she told me that, the more I believed it. I was like, "Lord, you keep telling me this," because I really saw that as from the Lord. Our sons said the same thing. She would talk to them every now and then, and Kristian and Taylor especially would say, "It's going to be okay, Mom."
Laura Dugger: Isn't that interesting how that encouragement meant so much more and was actually more accurate than a lot of the advice that was given?
Claire Stanfill: Exactly. I know.
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Laura Dugger: Tindell, what about you? Were there any times during this process that your heart softened toward God as you sensed that He was pursuing you even in the midst of the month?
Tindell Baldwin: I mean, honestly, as far as things of faith, I had pretty much shut that door and kind of thought, like, maybe I'll get back to God when I'm older. But the markers of unconditional love did make me stop and think. Like, because my friends in my circle or the friends I had kind of in my worldly life, you know, love was always conditional. If you stopped performing, you were kicked out of the circle. I mean, there was always for performance to go with the love. You know, if I stopped sleeping with my boyfriend, he was going to break up with me. There was just all these things.
But with my family, I treated them horribly, was completely rebellious and disobedient, and yet they had this continual love and pursuit to love me, which was such a perfect picture of how God treats us that it did make me stop and think. And not necessarily even to point to God, but to think, like, they have something different that clearly my friends don't have. [00:19:02]
I had some great friends who I'm still friends with now, but for the most part, my life was so conditional. Everything in my world, as high school honestly kind of is, like, very conditional.
One time in particular, after my long-term high school boyfriend had broken up with me, and I was super distraught, and I was at lunch with my dad when I got the phone call that he was breaking up with me. And it was because I had gotten drunk and cheated on him. I mean, I deserved it. It was all brought on me by myself.
My dad kind of knew the backstory and they had known this was, again, something I brought on myself. And I came home from a friend's house, and they had put a dozen red roses on my bedside table just with a note that said, "You're dearly loved." It was the perfect time to shake their finger in my face and be like, "This is what happens when you don't listen. This is what happens when you live this life." But instead, they took that opportunity to love on me in such a tangible way that it was, again, such a marker in my head of – why would they love me? Like, why on earth would they do something like this for me? [00:20:05]
So it was things like that that did make me stop and think. Then there was a few towards the end of high school, maybe my senior year, a few people from my past at church, like back in middle school, sent me prayer books and notes and just things that, "Hey, I was praying, and your name came to my mind." People I hadn't talked to in years who just made the effort to reach out and just send me something was just a reminder. It was like God reminding me, like, I haven't forgotten you. You might have forgotten me, but I'm not done with you.
Then my oldest brother, Kristian, would say consistently, "God's going to do something amazing in your life. God's going to do something amazing in your life." I was just like, "Are you seeing my life? I'm a train wreck." But his belief that God wasn't done with me helped me not necessarily give up on myself.
Laura Dugger: That makes a lot of sense. I feel like something that the Lord has been teaching me in this season is that one part of love is just profound thoughtfulness. And it sounds like your family and some of these Christian friends from years ago, their profound thoughtfulness of you was a catalyst that kind of started softening your heart. [00:21:13]
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah, absolutely.
Laura Dugger: And stories are always helpful. So do you have any others that come to mind?
Tindell Baldwin: You know, one that stuck out with me, and it wasn't necessarily a story like I lived through, but it was just something my dad told me early on. I think I was a freshman or sophomore in high school. When this all started, they sat me down. We'd always have these kitchen table talks when they'd sit me down. I dreaded it.
But my dad said, "I like to compare high school to whitewater rafting." And he was like, "I've been through the rapids and I want to be your guide. And I can stand here and say the rapids are coming. You can't see it, but I can." He was like, "I want to be that for you. I want to tell you when it's coming."
He was trying to give me an example of "I've lived through this. I know where the pitfalls are." He liked to say, "Sin has tons of paths, but only one destination." That was his point was: "The rapids are all around you and you can't see it, you're just in the boat. But I've been down the river. I know it's coming. Let me help you. Let me guide you." [00:22:13]
He wanted to take that approach, they both wanted to take that approach, as opposed to, again, kind of shake your finger in your face and be like, "You should have done this. And why didn't you do this?"
Then later, him kind of watching me go through really tremendous pain and saying, like... Not in a "I told you so", but in a like, this is the rapid. I saw that. I could have helped you." You know, just trying to help walk with me so that I wouldn't shut them out.
Laura Dugger: Because there was a moment then, like you said, when he addressed this as the rapid, that was pretty powerful for you.
Tindell Baldwin: Yes. And actually, that was the lunch I was at with him when the boyfriend broke up with me. At that point, I had nothing left to hide. At this point, too, I'd kind of been excommunicated from the group for a little while because the boyfriend I was dating had said I couldn't come back to any of the parties or anything. And so I was kind of down and out. Then I was grounded too on top of that. I was kind of just at the rock bottom.
So at lunch my dad said, "What happened?" I just told him I was honest. I said, "No, I cheated on him and he broke up with me." [00:23:15] He was like, "This is what I wanted to prevent. I wanted to prevent the pain for you because now the rapids hit and it's too late and I can't take this pain away from you." And he was right. There's nothing he could do at that point to help me, except for again show me this crazy unconditional love. But that is what he was trying to help prevent me from.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. Again, thinking of that teenage girl listening, sometimes it's hard until they get to that point to realize what outsiders can see.
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah. And honestly, working with teenagers in some capacity for the last... I mean, I'm on my third group of small group girls. You know as much as I would love to say there's a quick answer to help teenagers, I think the reality is the best thing you can do for teenagers, be like the Kerri in their life... I tell other high school years all the time, like, Kerri, my brother's wife, was at that season like... he was living in their apartment and so she was living in our house and she was this consistent presence. [00:24:16]
And it's not like I went to her for advice and said, you know, what's the godly thing to do here? I never asked that. I went to her and said, "Can I talk to you? Will you help me? And she just consistently listened and cared for me. And as teenagers, the greatest thing you can do for them is listen to them, be present for them, and then justify their pain.
Like so often we want to tell teenagers, this isn't a big deal, but we know that because we've been through it. They don't know that. I mean, it's like when you have your first baby and you take him to the doctor for every little thing because you don't know what's a big deal and what's not. They're going through this and they don't know it. And how stupid do you feel when you take the baby to the doctor and the doctor looks at you and is like, why'd you bring him in?
That's how they feel when you look at them and say, This isn't a big deal. Like, oh, who cares who you're going to go to prom with? It's like, well, you probably cared when you were 16. But they care. So the most important thing we can do is justify their pain. "I'm sorry that hurts. It is real." Because it's real to them. And we can't take it from them, but we can help them see, like, you can make it through this or encourage them to keep going. [00:25:20] And just be present and listen.
Claire Stanfill: I need to give a lot of credit to my husband. Tommy is his name. He was always the even keel, see the big picture, and be able to come up with, Hey, this is how we can influence the relationship we have with Tindell, not this is how we can ground her or yell at her, do something to make us feel better because we've come down on her.
He was always focused on the huge picture, getting her to a great place in the end without losing any kind of relationship that we had. And I needed that. Because I need to make it clear we're sounding all great here. I had many times where I went up and just ripped Tindell a new one.
I mean, there was one time that she and a friend came home drunk and they were supposed to have picked up my youngest son at church. [00:26:22] They drove home, obviously, drunk. They did not pick up my son.
Tindell Baldwin: At a school event.
Claire Stanfill: Yes, thank goodness. Oh, yes, they had been at a school event and gotten rippled and drunk. I went upstairs and just vomited on them this speech of how disappointed I was. I mean, I made a fool of myself. I truly did. I felt at the time that maybe I was going to go better doing it and it did feel invigorating to just let it all out. But I had to go back upstairs very shortly after and go, "I am so sorry. I blew it."
And that's where I really needed my husband to say, "That's not going to get us anywhere." I knew it. The Holy Spirit tells you, "That was really good, Claire. Way to go. What a waste of time." So he was so instrumental, obviously, in speaking to her and then calming me down. We were a unified front. It took a little while for me to buy into what he thought should happen because I had my own ideas as well. So I just want to make sure that your listeners don't think, well, they did it all right. No, we didn't.
Laura Dugger: I appreciate that because I think as a mom we definitely can identify with that part of making so many mistakes. [00:27:40] We're trying our best.
Claire Stanfill: I know. I know.
Laura Dugger: Tindell, being years now removed from all of these experiences, what do you wish you could have gotten through to the head and the heart of teenage Tindell?
Tindell Baldwin: I love this because I don't know if there's a way to have gotten this through to me, but what I would have loved to understand at that age was that I was never too far gone from God. For me, I felt like the only objective goal, maybe when I knew I was going to enter this party lifestyle, was I'm not going to have sex before marriage. That was kind of the one thing I said I was going to keep that. Then once I did cross that line, I thought God was done with me. He had washed His hands of me and then I'm done with you.
I felt like that was such a bold lie that Satan had me believing and really kept me from even going back to Jesus because I felt like I couldn't go back. I had crossed that line, He was done. There was even a Good Friday service that we went to together, and Kristian was at Buckhead Church, way back when Buckhead Church was in a grocery store. [00:28:41] Christian was singing, and I just remember this big wooden cross being hung. The stage was in the middle of the room. This big wooden cross being hung in the middle of the stage and me looking at that cross and thinking that it was an invitation. Like there was an invitation from God and weeping. The music was so moving to me that I was weeping.
But I also remember thinking two things. One, I was too far gone, and then two, that the Christian life would never be as fulfilling as the party life I was leading. I would never have as much fun. I would never be as happy or satisfied as I was doing these things I was doing. Which is just so ironic now because now it's like the life I lead now is a billion times more fulfilling than that life I was living.
But yeah, those were the two things I wish I understood: how fulfilling and wonderful living in Christ is. And then just that God was never done with me. Like we aren't a disqualified person. It's actually what qualifies us for Jesus' grace.
Laura Dugger: And we all need a Savior.
Tindell Baldwin: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Well, Claire, did other people ever make hurtful comments or did Satan try to also whisper half-truths to you about your parenting during this struggle?
Claire Stanfill: Of course. We were great juicy gossip because we had these sons who really were excelling, as Tindell said. You know, Kristian was a worship leader at an early age. Taylor was high achieving in school with all the sports, and Brett was also an incredible worship leader. So it was like we had this black sheet that even a teacher at the school would say, what happened to you? And I think, how horrible. [00:30:28]
But I had people call me saying, "You need to do this," or "Did you know that Tindell did this?" Or "How in the world can you let her go to college where she is in her state of mind right now?" It's like we were on our own little island dealing with it because very few people had good intentions. It was more, Let me just tell you what is on the gossip train right now.
It was very discouraging. Because as a mom, you know part of our feeling fulfilled is to think we're doing a good job. And who measures that you're doing a good job? By the world standards, it's how you appear. What is your family doing? How are the kids behaving? All that stuff. And I was failing because I had a daughter that you know was not going the way we wanted her to go.
I had to deal with, You know what? I don't care what anybody thinks. Our family is right where God has us. He has us, number one. He's holding this. And these people that don't understand, one day they'll maybe understand. The beauty of it is so many people have been affected and encouraged and blown away by Tindell's decision to commit her life and become this incredibly beautiful mom in life. [00:31:59] Now, it's amazing the people that don't even have a faith that I know have made comments.
I had to work through making sure it wasn't for me that I wanted the reputation to be good. I just had to stop listening to a lot of what was going on.
Laura Dugger: I would think that that would be a very isolating feeling.
Claire Stanfill: It really was. And because we had gotten married so young, we were pioneering the moving on with older children. Most of our friends had children 10 years and younger, so we were kind of on our own. We didn't have a whole lot of older friends that had been through this kind of scenario that we could go, Oh, well, they did that and it really worked. We sought out lots of help, ministries, and things that could offer advice, but it was isolating. Very.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I wondered if you did seek out some mentors or somebody who had been through that. Was that helpful when you said reached out? [00:33:03]
Claire Stanfill: Yes, very. One ministry we reached out to was the Prodigal Child. It's a couple here in Atlanta that run the ministry. They had a prodigal child and they understood. They started this incredible ministry. We met with them, just listened to all that they had heard and seen through so many people that had come through their ministry. So they were a great resource. We had some counselors, both Tommy and myself, that we both went to.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing that. I think that's so courageous when you're able to reach out. I think it shows humility rather than that pride or self-righteousness.
Claire Stanfill: Yes. We need help.
Laura Dugger: We all do. So, Claire, if another parent right now is going through something similar, and they have their own prodigal child, how would you like to encourage them?
Claire Stanfill: I would say you have to hold tight to the truth. And the truth is Scripture. Over and over in Scripture, the promises that God gives us. [00:34:07] And just to name a few, He will never leave us or forsake us. Do not fear. The Lord goes with us. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you. Be confident and courageous.
Paul, to me, was a great example. He was chained in prison, but he had the confidence and the courage for all practical purposes. The view he had was disastrous, but yet he always moved forward in whatever way he could confidently and courageously. I felt like that was our call. I think that you have to do that with the Lord behind you.
I think sometimes going through this kind of pain, we can look at it as a terrible nuisance, or we have to sometimes walk through pain and suffering, and we cannot do anything about it. This was one of those cases. We couldn't make Tindell turn around, so we were in a painful walk for quite a long time.
And what I learned was that that made me to be in dire need of Jesus. [00:35:12] It drew me to Him and created the most tender relationship between myself and Him. I wouldn't have that. And I can always go back to that when I think about what we went through with her. My relationship will never be the same because of that scenario. There's other scenarios in my life, too, that I have to say, you know, God's doing the same thing as He did back then. Lean into Him. That's my main advice. He is your rock.
Laura Dugger: I think you keep painting such a nice big-picture view instead of us getting so caught in the here and now. But now you're in a different season and it seems like God has just given you such an enlarged heart from this.
Claire Stanfill: Yeah, what a blessing.
Laura Dugger: Over 90 of you have already left five-star ratings and reviews. That is so awesome. If you haven't done it yet, would you mind just pausing to head over to iTunes and you can leave your own five-star rating and review?
Here is one that Nicole J. left. "Love this podcast. I legitimately look forward to listening because each episode and each time I repeat an episode, there is always something new that encourages me and equips me as a wife, mom, and friend. There are good podcasts that encourage, but so far on this one, everything has been rooted in biblical truth. Highly recommend." [00:36:38] Wow, thank you, Nicole J.
Now back to the show.
Tindell, will you pick up your story and tell us how you then reached breakthrough?
Tindell Baldwin: Despite other people's advice, they did let me go to college, which was honestly my saving grace because I think being raised in a suburb with going through high school right after my brothers were all close in age, I think the best thing for me was to kind of get into a new space with new people and a new reputation and kind of having to figure out who I want to be.
So I went to Auburn and no one really knew who my family was. No one knew who I was. I kind of looked around and thought, Oh, I can, maybe start over a little bit. I wasn't looking for God or anything, but He was looking for me. I think a few months in, I kind of started the same lifestyle for a while and then joined a sorority kind of known for being crazy.
Then a few months in, I looked around and I was like, "This is just a different place and different people, but it's the same old thing. Same old hurt, same old pain, same old lifestyle." [00:37:39] I was like, "Okay, something's got to give." So I thought, "Okay, well, I'll stop doing drugs and I won't sleep with anyone I'm dating. That was to clean up my life a little bit from the outside looking in, like I'll have a better reputation.
I mean it was college so I was like, Oh, I'm not going to give up drinking or anything." But my mom kind of saw the change in heart. And we were talking on the phone. College did wonderful things for our relationship. Just like a little of a distance, having to do all my own laundry and cooking and all that. I was like, Oh, I have a new appreciation for everything you've done for me my whole life.
So I was talking to her and I said, "I think I'm gonna go to my sororities Bible study." She was like, "Oh, you have to tell me. Sit down before you say stuff like that."
Claire Stanfill: It was a shock.
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah, it was a shock. But I just started being more open, and she saw that and was in tune with that. And so January of my freshman year, my oldest brother, Kristian, was leading his first Passion Conference, which is just a conference for college students based around Jesus. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know who the speakers were. I just knew it was a big deal for my brother. And he'd always been so overly supportive and loving to me. All my brothers had. [00:38:42] And I thought, "Okay, I'll go." I think my dad was like, "We'll go shopping in Nashville. It was in Nashville.
So I went and the first speaker that I heard at the conference was Beth Moore, which like, if you've ever heard Beth Moore speak, you feel like she's just talking to you. She was talking about the pit and the pit of sin, what that looks like and how God can choose the person in Psalms, about how God lifts you out of the pit and puts your feet on solid ground.
I think for the first time, I kind of saw that all the pain in my life had been my own doing. Like I had dug the hole and jumped in myself and kept digging and hoping to make things better and cleaning up my life in any sort of way it wasn't going to do anything, but that like Jesus was the one person that's going to lift me out and put my feet on solid ground.
So then that night my brother came on stage and was singing Jesus Paid It All, which the chorus is, O praise the one who paid my debt, who raised this life up from the dead. And I just was ready. I think I was willing to surrender and accept that I had wrecked my own life, then I was ready for Jesus to wreck it in a good way and put it back together. [00:39:45]
And so I did. I accepted Jesus that night and went back and told them pretty quickly after and then met with my brother and his wife and talked to them and apologized to them for pain I had put them through. It was really beautiful.
But then I had to go back to college and college is hard when you're a new believer. It's not an easy place to start loving Jesus. So I had to kind of work through what it looked like. It was not like I came back to college and was like, Now I don't want to do any of the things that I used to do. It was very much having to trust God and a baby step of trusting him. Like you say, I'm supposed to do this and live this way, but are you right? Like, do I really believe you? It was not a full 180. I'm completely good. It was very much slow and steady baby steps to trusting and loving Him and believing that He really did have what was best for me.
I feel like within a year I was all in, willing to do whatever it took to know and love Him in a real way. I just realized He was the only thing that was going to put my life on a path that was worth living. [00:40:54] I met my husband the next year, who's a wonderful Christian man and we married.
Laura Dugger: So life has drastically changed since you surrendered everything to Jesus. Catch us up now and tell us more of how it has changed.
Tindell Baldwin: You know, honestly, I think that an easier thing would be how it hasn't changed because there's not really one part of my life that God hasn't touched. It's such a wonderful thing. I mean, hard, but wonderful that I get to be such a different person. It was such a clear transformation for me that it was like, it's easy for me to trust God because I know what life was like without Him.
I mean, how I parent is totally different because of my love for Jesus, how I love my husband, how I love others, how I treat other people, the things I prioritize, the voice I listen to. Our need for love and acceptance, what I was searching for back at 15, doesn't go away. But how I fulfill it now is through Jesus. [00:41:53]
I think the main difference is I'm not following Jesus out of any shame or guilt or any family push. I'm following him because I have utter gratitude for what He did for me on the cross and what I know and believe and have seen that He's done for me. It's been easier for me to trust Him with things that's maybe harder if you've known Jesus your whole life. I think in some aspects it's been an easier transition for me because there's such a clear picture of my life before Jesus and my life afterwards.
Laura Dugger: Claire, what was that moment like when you realized that God had rescued Tindell and she had accepted Him as her Lord and Savior?
Claire Stanfill: It was almost like speechless elation. I didn't have the words. I had lots of tears of joy. I was beyond thankful. It was like the vision that I had had for her life was coming to fruition. And there were no doubts. The burden had been lifted. [00:42:55] I just felt an immediate gratitude, incredible gratitude that, wow, she's been delivered. We have her back. We have our family unity back without contention.
It's hard to put into words. I'll tell you what it was like. When Tindell was born, we didn't know she was going to be a girl. We had had Kristian and Taylor, and of course, I wanted a girl. And when they said, "It's a girl," I said, "Show me." I was just in shock and beyond happy. And it's almost like she was born again to me. I got her back. I felt that feeling of "I can hold her again." She's my girl.
There were days I thought we were losing her. Many weeks. I read her journal, she wanted to kill herself. She was cutting herself. It was not pretty. To envision the end being this incredible. It was more incredible than I could have ever envisioned because God created it, and He made it happen. It still blows me away.
Laura Dugger: I think every parent listening can relate to that, myself included. Our oldest is only five, and yeah, I long for that day where... I'm going to just paraphrase but I have no greater joy than to know that my children are walking in the truth.
Claire Stanfill: Amen. Amen. [00:44:19]
Laura Dugger: So how has your relationship with each other, the mother-daughter relationship, how has that changed since that day?
Tindell Baldwin: Oh man. Honestly, I do feel like college, even before then, like just going to college started repairing, if that can give parents hope. I tell a lot of mothers of teenagers all the time, like when they leave the house, there's like a renewed understanding for everything they've done for you, all that your mom's done for you.
I mean, we live 10 minutes away right now, which is super fun. We named our oldest Claire after her just for what an impact she's been on my life. We have a great friendship. It's a joy to be friends with your mom, to go to lunch on a Thursday. How I parent has been influenced by our relationship. I'm super grateful that we have the bond that we do, a friendship that we do.
Laura Dugger: Because you didn't try to force a friendship early on. You were the parent, Claire and now you get to reap so many blessings.
Claire Stanfill: So true. So true. [00:45:24]
Laura Dugger: From your perspective, how has the relationship changed with your daughter?
Claire Stanfill: Oh, it's just sweet. It's real. The great thing too is that I don't think we ever totally lost a relationship. It wasn't like we had to then, once she came back to the Lord, figure out how to have a relationship. Like I said, my husband was so instrumental in making sure that that happened. So we've just been able to go deeper, move to the next level.
Now we are just the closest of friends. Probably not a day goes by we don't talk. I just adore her, my time with her. I'm so just in awe of what God's done and that I get to have this relationship with her.
Laura Dugger: Well, Tindell, what do you want to say to the teenager who's in a season right now of rebellion and resisting anything related to what their parents are saying or what God wants to say to them?
Tindell Baldwin: I would challenge them just not to believe that they're ever too far gone, that God is a Redeemer. And even though they might not be able to see where He's working in their story, He hasn't given up on you, even if you've given up on Him or given up on yourself. [00:46:38]
Also to find someone who can have faith for you when you don't. Kerri was that person to me. But to have someone who you can talk to, who can be like a guiding light for you. Honestly, I would say older than you. I think your peers are wonderful, but having someone a little farther ahead that can be a small group leader or mentor or something. Just finding that person and being able to have them encourage you and again, maybe have faith for you when you don't, I think is a vital thing.
Laura Dugger: And to have a mentor in all of these things.
Claire Stanfill: Amen.
Tindell Baldwin: Yes. Yes.
Claire Stanfill: Definitely.
Laura Dugger: Claire, what about you? What's the biggest lesson that God has taught you through all of this?
Claire Stanfill: I would say that He is enough and He is faithful. His promises are true. He who began a good work in you will complete it to the end, to the day of Jesus. Tindell was very outspoken like the fourth and fifth grade about God and heaven and who was going to heaven and who wasn't. [00:47:42] She loved to just tell people the truth.
Tindell Baldwin: All good fourth graders are.
Claire Stanfill: But I knew deep down in her heart that God had worked in her some. So I knew that she would come back. I think it's just having that faith, you know, and knowing that God really is enough. And I would say be united with your husband. I think it's so true.
And if you don't have a husband, if you're a single mom, I would say find that safe person that is like a mentor, who believes in you and understands you, that you can bounce things off of, because we all need a balance.
Laura Dugger: You really walked that faith where you had to believe in things that were not seen completely.
Claire Stanfill: Exactly.
Laura Dugger: Additionally, Tindell, how has your story impacted the way that you are now parenting your own children?
Tindell Baldwin: I think that's been one of the greatest blessings to me. One, I decided early on I wanted to heal from my story, which honestly writing it was super hard because writing your own story is really just kind of reliving everything you've gone through and figuring out where you need to get counseling, not get counseling, all that kind of stuff. [00:48:51]
So I did. I went through a lot of counseling as I was writing Popular. That helped me a ton just process my past. I think shame is such a powerful thing the enemy uses. I just decided I wasn't gonna be held back by shame. Like I believe that I'm a new creation and so I can live in freedom and I don't have to feel shame about my past, which has been huge going around and sharing my story. To know that I'm not who I was, that I'm a new creation, so I can live out of that.
So that's been great just now having two daughters and knowing I'm probably going to have to talk about some things that are hard and painful, and I'm going to have to walk through some maybe scary stuff with them.
Then also just like knowing that my kids walk with the Lord as their own. Having to trust that He has them and He loves them. That my prayer has always been that they know and love Him from an early age. But I think in my heart what's more important even than an early age, which is scary to say, but that they know and love Him authentically, and that their faith is their own. [00:49:50]
Because for me, even if I hadn't gone through the rebellion and I had lived out the steps of the Christian life, I didn't know Jesus, and I didn't understand what He had done for me. So I want my girls and my son to know not just what Jesus has done for them, but to experience Him in a real way so that their faith sticks and they don't lose it in high school or they don't lose it in college or whatever. Because I think even if I'd gone through the motions of Christianity when college had hit, I would have run away because it wasn't my own. So knowing that what's more important than necessarily them avoiding the pain is that they have a faith that's theirs.
Laura Dugger: And that's so hard in the day-to-day life of being a mom to do that. But when I hear you say that, it's so clear, like, yes, we need faith. That's essential. Well, this time has been an incredible blessing, and I'm sure that people are going to want to reach out or follow up. Maybe they have some questions or would love some guidance from the two of you. So where's the best place that they can connect with you online?
Tindell Baldwin: I have a blog, that's TindellBaldwin.com, which I have not been great about keeping up this year because I've been working on something longer, hopefully. [00:51:00] But, yep, I have a blog, and on there's a "contact me". Then I'm on social media. Tindell Grace is my Instagram.
Claire Stanfill: I'm on social media as well, or my email is just Clairestanfill@gmail.
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will link to all of that in our show notes. I have one final question for you today, ladies, because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy means practical knowledge. So we'd all love to hear what is your savvy sauce?
Tindell Baldwin: Oh, yeah. Okay, this is kind of super practical, but in this season of little kids to stay connected to my husband. We do something we call a Sunday night check-in. Well, the acronym is BUMPS, but it's budget, upcoming week, marriage, parenting, and spiritual.
So we go through these on Sunday night. We fold all of our laundry together on Sunday night after I get home from church and we go through each category. That's our time to like... maybe if things were hard or something came up that week. [00:52:01] It's just been a nice thing for us to stay connected on the same page, especially with parenting. That's been like our practical kind of saving grace and raising kids under six right now.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. We're going to link to that acronym even.
Tindell Baldwin: So good.
Laura Dugger: Claire, what about you? What is your savvy sauce?
Claire Stanfill: Well, I would say my advice or savvy sauce would be to laugh, listen, and learn every day.
My husband really has taught me to laugh. He is a funny guy, very upbeat. And I think that is just so important. We need to learn to listen well, listen to people's hearts, listen to God. It's just always so wonderful to learn.
Laura Dugger: I love both of your savvy sauces. This time has just been so enjoyable. I love getting to witness in person as we're in Atlanta recording this, just seeing the love and care you have for one another and for Jesus. So thank you for giving us your time today. [00:53:03]
Claire Stanfill: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Tindell Baldwin: Thank you so much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:54:04] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:55:04]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:56:07] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 07, 2019
Monday Oct 07, 2019
77. How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson
**Transcription Below**
Zechariah 4:10a (NLT) “Do not despise these small beginnings, for the LORD rejoices to see the work begin,"
Jeff Henderson is an entrepreneur, speaker, pastor and business leader. For the past 15 years, he has helped lead two of North Point Ministries multi-site locations in Atlanta, Georgia - Buckhead Church and Gwinnett Church. He also helped launch North Point Online which now reaches over 200,000 people. He is the founder of several organizations including Champion Tribes, a rite-of passage experience for fathers with middle school sons; Preaching Rocket, an online coaching program with over 20,000 participants; Launch Youniversity, a podcast for entrepreneurs; and the FOR Company, helping businesses and non-profit organizations grow. Jeff was recently named by Forbes Magazine as one of the 20 speakers you shouldn’t miss. Prior to working as a pastor, Jeff started his career in marketing with the Atlanta Braves, Callaway Gardens, Lake Lanier Islands and Chick-fil-A Inc., where he led the company’s regional and beverage marketing strategies. Jeff and his wife Wendy have been married 22 years and have a daughter, Jesse, and a son, Cole.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Know What You’re FOR by Jeff Henderson
The War of Art by Steven Pressfield
Previous Episode with Jeff Henderson: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Located in Morton, Illinois, Floral Designs is a full-service florist, as well as a home decor store. They are not your typical florist, as they offer fresh floral designs that are one-of-a-kind. They have a beautiful showroom, as well as offering in-home consultations for their clients. Visit them at floraldesigns-ltd.com, or check out their showroom.
Jeff Henderson is one of my favorite people to interview, so I'm excited to let you know we are bringing him back as a returning guest. Jeff just released his first book titled, Know What You're For: A Growth Strategy for Work, an Even Better Strategy for Life. We're going to learn more about his book and writing process, in addition to some practical life tips he shares as he mentors us.
I do want to let you know that we had a few issues with sound quality, especially at the beginning, but it gets much better, so please hang with us. [00:01:23]
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Jeff.
Jeff Henderson: Laura, it's great to be back with you. Thanks for having me again.
Laura Dugger: My pleasure. And for anyone who missed our previous recording, will you just give us a glimpse of your current stage of life?
Jeff Henderson: Sure. My wife, Wendy, and I have been married 22 years, and we have a college sophomore daughter at Samford University in Birmingham. And my son, Cole, is in his junior year at North Gwinnett High School, right next door to our church here in Gwinnett County in Atlanta.
We serve here as... I'm the lead pastor at Gwinnett Church, and I've been on staff here for 16 years. Before that, I was lead pastor at Buckhead, and then before that, worked in the chicken business, as you well know, with Chick-fil-A. So that's kind of a little bit of our story.
Laura Dugger: I love it. You have some very exciting news today, because you just came out with your first book. So will you tell us about your book?
Jeff Henderson: Absolutely. Well, as you well know, I've really been fortunate to work for two thriving organizations, Chick-fil-A and North Point Ministries, and I've had a front-row seat. [00:02:24] One of the things that both of these organizations have experienced is explosive growth. And through that explosive growth, they've been able to impact more communities than they ever imagined.
So I began to wonder, what caused them to grow? And then I began to figure it out and say, you know what, if I could boil this down to two questions, I bet it would be really helpful. Because, Laura, as you know, there's all sorts of reasons why an organization or a church or a nonprofit grows. But if you could boil it down to just one sentence or a couple of questions, could I do that?
So I worked through that and basically kind of came to these two questions. The first question is, what do you want to be known for? What do you want your church to be known for? What do you want your business to be known for? What do you want your podcast to be known for? Then the second question is, what are you known for?
So the first question, what do you want to be known for, that's your vision. That's your uniquely different proposition to the world if you're a business. This is what makes this podcast different. This is what makes this restaurant different. But the second question is the customer's experience with your vision. [00:03:25]
Now, the reason these two questions are important is when these two questions match, when the answers to these two questions are the same, when what you want to be known for is actually what you are known for, something powerful happens, Laura. You access the greatest form of marketing the world has ever and will ever see. And that's positive word-of-mouth advertising. The customers start telling other customers about your church, about your business, about your organization.
The reason this is important is in today's world, as you well know, a brand or a business is no longer what it tells customers it is. A brand is what customers tell other customers it is. All the power is now in the hands of the customers. So you can say that you're the best organization and this is what you want to be known for. But if that's not what you're actually known for, there will be a gap and sales and momentum will start to slow down.
So what the book is about is trying to make sure those two questions match. And I do that by calling it the core four. [00:04:26] There's four groups of people that you need to be for to basically shrink the gaps of those questions.
And so it's been fun for me to kind of process through my experience at Chick-fil-A and North Point. But not only that. I've had the opportunity to work alongside of or to observe a lot of great companies and I've applied these two questions to them. And as I've seen them do this, they've experienced the growth.
So that's what the book's about. It's probably a little odd for a pastor to be writing about a marketing or business book. But I'm a really odd person to begin with. So my hope is that this has an impact on business people, certainly pastors and church leaders for sure. But I think it's a principle that we can all learn from.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. I love hearing where this idea originated. You had also mentioned a long time ago in our first episode that you knew that you were blessed by working with these great churches and Chick-fil-A. But somebody called you out and said, "It's not just a blessing. This is stewardship." So is it just one person or was that multiple conversations you were having that caused you to then write the book? [00:05:32]
Jeff Henderson: It really was multiple. One of whom was my wife, Wendy, who just speaks constant wisdom into my life. But others like my mentor, John Woodall. And then my wife gives me a hard time, Laura, that I've never really left Chick-fil-A. I'm still on the Chick-fil-A voicemail system. I'm down there a lot. But still to this day I get people asking me questions about Chick-fil-A. Then when I'm at Chick-fil-A, people are asking me questions about Northpoint.
So through those questions, I thought, wow, I've actually been on both sides. I understand. Even though I left Chick-fil-A many years ago, I'm still very involved. I kind of know what's happening in the organization. So as people started asking me questions about the organizations and then I heard Wendy and John and others, I just thought, "I think they're right. I got to be a better steward of this opportunity and share with people what I've learned."
I'll give you a quick story real quick about this. The book opens with me driving Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, to a speaking engagement. I can't even remember where we were going or what happened, but that car ride, Laura, has followed me. [00:06:35] And that was 20 years ago.
What I remember about that car ride, Laura, is that Truett asked me questions, but it wasn't anything about the business. He asked me, how am I enjoying working here? He asked me about Wendy. He asked me about our kids. He asked me about my parents. He knew my parents. We talked about life. I asked him, how did he create this billion-dollar business but still be a wonderful husband and dad. We had a great conversation.
At the end of the night, I dropped Truett off, and I'm driving away, and I'm thinking, "Wait, we didn't talk about the business." Truett was more interested in me than he was getting information out of me about the business. And that's when I discovered the secret, one of the secrets that made his business grow.
This was so helpful for me to process this, Laura. I think it will be helpful for our listeners. That Truett was more interested in the business growing people than he was people growing the business. And that's how his business grew. So let me say that again. Truett was more interested in the business growing people versus people growing the business. That's how the business grew. [00:07:44]
And here's what I mean by that. That night, I would have run through a brick wall for Truett Cathy. Because he was interested in me and because he was for me, I wanted to be even more for him and for Chick-fil-A and to prove that he could trust me even more because of his belief and interest in me as a human being.
I see that lost in the business world. I see that as a gigantic opportunity. If people in the business world will actually be interested in the people who work in the business, the people in the business will be for the business. It just seems so obvious and so simple, but it's so very rare. So when I experienced that, that here's the billionaire founder of Chick-fil-A asking me questions about me, I never got over that. That's why I opened the book with that story.
Laura Dugger: I can't wait for people to read your book. I hope that it is a catalyst for change to move in that direction. I've experienced Truett in the same way. I didn't know him nearly as well as you did. Only actually had the opportunity to meet him once in person. But we hear so many stories through Chick-fil-A. So one more while we're on the topic of him. [00:09:00]
Jeff Henderson: Sure.
Laura Dugger: He was married to Jeannette, his loving wife. And so at his funeral, if you can track with me, there's a woman who works at Chick-fil-A, her name's Anita Costello. I've always really admired her. And I remember her sharing this story that she was going through the line and just saying, "You have my sympathy" to Jeannette. And Jeanette said, "Okay, hi, what's your name? Okay, you work with Chick-fil-A. Do you enjoy your work here?
In the line before they're burying Truett, that's what his wife was asking the people. They cared so much individually for everyone there.
Jeff Henderson: Wow. That was Truett and Jeanette. I think that illustrates another lesson that I learned from them. And I think this is true for any organization to ask the people that work there: what does it feel like to work here? What does it feel like to work here? Because people, Laura, as you well know, when they leave the office, the feelings go with them and they show back up the next day. And sometimes we create organizations that are void of emotions. But they're there. They're just under the surface. So what does it feel like to work here? [00:10:08]
Laura Dugger: You have so many good, thought-provoking questions. What are some other takeaways that you want readers to learn after they read your book?
Jeff Henderson: Well, there's... I call it the core four. There's four groups of people that you need to be for as a business or church organization. The first is the customers. That seems so obvious. But really, if I could talk to business leaders, the spotlight and the focus on the business is sometimes so on the business, it excludes the customers in an ironic way.
I point this out to business leaders when I ask them to go to Instagram and count the last ten posts about what did they post. This is true for churches is that most of the time, nine out of ten or ten out of ten are all about the business.
And here's why this is important. If a business were a person, many businesses would be considered narcissists because it's all about them. "We're talking about us. We're so much better than our competition. Look at us. Look at us. Look at us." What we're trying to do is create raving fans. Totally understand that. Still think we need to do that. [00:11:08]
But here's how the game is changing. Thriving organizations in the future will understand that it's not about trying to create raving fans but about becoming a raving fan of the customer. That's where the game is going.
So a very practical suggestion on this, Laura, is that many organizations, many big brands forget the social and social media. It's not social media. It's just an electronic brochure. I was with a big multibillion-dollar brand the other day. I pulled up their Instagram. They had a post, they got 89 comments. Not a single one of them was liked or commented on from the organization.
I told them, I said, "If we came to your organization as a customer and asked you a question and you turned your back on me and didn't respond, you would be embarrassed by that and horrified that that was your reaction. You're doing that every single time you post because your customers are talking to you and you're not talking back." That's a huge mistake. The reason is, is the spotlight is all on the business and they're not focusing and talking to the customers. And that's just one small example. [00:12:11]
So what I try to share with businesses and churches is, and this is just one example, social media is an opportunity for you to get really personal and to tell customers you're actually paying attention to them, you're cheering them on, and you're noticing them.
I'll give you another quick example and then we'll move on. But a friend of mine recently said she works at this massive, huge, wonderful ministry. And she said, You know what? I'm a big Starbucks fan. I posted about being in a Starbucks and Starbucks commented back and said, 'Thank you so much for loving Starbucks.'" And she said, "I took a screenshot of that and sent that all to my friends."
I said, "Okay, two questions. How long ago was that?" She said, "A year and a half ago." I said, "Okay, a year and a half ago. You're still talking about it, aren't you?" I said, what other Starbucks post on Instagram did you take a screenshot of and send to your other friends? She said, "None."
So what happens in that moment is that Starbucks got really personal with one customer. And that leads to a principle that I've learned from Andy Stanley. This is something I've learned from North Point. [00:13:12] Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone. Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone.
Starbucks can't comment on every post, but they can comment on some. And that one post, one of their customers is still talking and spreading the news and the word about Starbucks a year and a half later.
So that goes back to our two questions: that when what you want to be known for and Starbucks wants to be known as this local community brand, when that's what you're known for and somebody is telling someone else a year and a half later, Starbucks noticed me. They have now become positive word of mouth for you. They have become a sales force for free. So that's just one strategy for the customer. There's one for the team. There's one for the larger community. You need to have a bigger purpose than just towards your customers.
And then the final group is for you. The biggest gift that you can give customers, the team, and a larger purpose and community is an inspired you. So what we talk about in the book is, how can you be for those four groups of people? [00:14:12]
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is such a timely message. Clearly, you're a gifted communicator with all these stories and illustrations. You really drive home the point.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: But now getting really practical, you already had a very full schedule. So when did you make time to write this book?
Jeff Henderson: That's a great question. There's a principle, biblical principle, that's so encouraging and so helpful, especially if you're starting out on anything. And that is don't despise the days of humble beginnings. Don't despise the days of humble beginnings. [00:16:09]
So one of the things I learned years ago from a book called On Writing, Stephen King, is that he had a goal of writing 1,000 words a day, six days a week. That was it. And he said, amateurs wait on inspiration. The professionals get up and go hunt it down. And I thought, "That's really interesting." I said, "Well, I'm not obviously Stephen King, but what if I just wrote 500 words a day for five days a week? What would be the math on that that would get me to the word count goal that I would need to get?"
Because typically in something like this, you're like, "I've got to take three months off and go on vacation and just write, you know, be in a log cabin and be inspired and do all that. But I don't have the luxury of that because I have a job that I love here at Gwinnett Church. Things are growing and I've got a family and all that. I can't take three months off to write a book.
So that's what I did, Laura. I just wrote 500 words a day for five days a week. Some days I would check the word count every five minutes and it was like I've gone two words now. [00:17:09] Some days were terrible, just awful struggle.
And that's what Stephen King said. Some days you're going to really struggle to get to your word count goal. But he said there could be other days when you're sitting there working and inspiration is going to show up and you're going to go from 500 words to 3,000. And that's what I discovered. So I gave myself the permission to write bad. Don't edit along the way and then come back and edit during the process, a later process.
There's another book called The War of Art, not a Christian book. Just want to warn everybody. Stephen Pressfield. But Stephen Pressfield said, When you show up and put something on a screen or write something on a piece of paper, you win. It doesn't have to be good. You win when you push against the resistance. So what I discovered is if I did the math correctly, I would need to do that 80 days for five days. And that's what that would get me to my word count goal. That's what happened.
The other thing that I've learned from a friend of mine, [Carrie Newhall?], Carrie says, "Do what you're best at when you're at your best. Do what you're best at when you're at your best. So what I discovered about myself and know about myself is I'm more creative and better early in the morning than I am past noon or in the afternoon or evening. [00:18:18] So I did most of my writing early in the morning and the edits would come later in the day.
So for me, I would ask our listeners, when are you at your best? That for me was in the morning. So knowing I had a word count goal, knowing that I'm at my best when I'm in the morning, that's when I'm the most creative, was a huge help to me. And it took the pressure off. It took the pressure off because I know, hey, yeah, I'm writing this book and I'm only, you know, 500 or 5,000 words in. But don't panic. Just get up and write 500 words today and then get up tomorrow and do 500 words tomorrow. You're going to get there because you've already done the math.
For me those small bite-sized pieces it's not just true for a book. It's really true for anything in life: Parenting, saving financially. That consistency over time really leads to benefits.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. Do you have any other routines or habits to reach some of your goals?
Jeff Henderson: I do. I have. We talked a little bit about this at our last podcast. [00:19:20] I have a weekly focus document that I look at rather frequently. But the other thing that I was taught by a friend of mine is a great day begins the night before. So a great day begins the night before.
In fact, from a biblical standpoint, it's really... I think we have it backwards in our Western culture. We think the day starts in the morning. Actually, the day starts at sundown. That's when the day starts. So his advice to me is, hey, before you go to bed at night, write down three ways that tomorrow will be a win. So before you go to sleep, you already know how tomorrow is going to win. He goes, subconsciously, it's going to help you as you're sleeping, as you get up and know what I've got to do to make this day a win.
So a great day begins the night before. I'm telling you, if your listeners would just try this for five days, just five days. Write three things down before you go to sleep that will make tomorrow, the next day a big win. It doesn't have to be, you know, going to go on a vacation. It could be "I'm going to write a note of encouragement to my kids. I'm going to work on that project for 30 minutes and I'm going to do something about our finances." I'm just making this up. If you just do that, you'll hit the ground already knowing where you should go. [00:20:37]
So a great day begins the night before. That's not just a wisdom principle. It's a biblical principle. It's how really God created the world. So I would just say that's a really helpful principle to lean into.
Laura Dugger: Well, and if listeners would only be willing to change one thing about their daily routine today, is that where you would advise them to begin?
Jeff Henderson: I would because I think it's going to put your mind at ease. I think it'll actually help you get better sleep. You know, before we go to sleep, if we're not careful, we can think about everything that went wrong or all the stress, all that. And we struggle going to sleep. But if we can put our mind in a more positive direction, that's going to help us not only in the day that's about to arrive. It's going to help us sleep better.
A tired, exhausted you is just not going to perform better over time than a rested you. And I know we have listeners who have young kids who are like, "Jeff, I wish I could get sleep." I totally understand that. Trust me, it's a season. We're going to get through this. [00:21:36] But overall, if you can get more rest, I think it's going to be helpful. And this principle helps you actually sleep better. If you don't believe me, try it out for five days.
Laura Dugger: More patrons have joined the club recently, and we are so grateful. When you pledge five dollars per month to support The Savvy Sauce through Patreon, you're going to automatically unlock 12 additional incredible episodes and five downloadable scripture cards. And these goodies just keep appearing each month.
If you join before November 1st, we have an extra special surprise for you. We hope you consider joining today. Visit thesavvysauce.com, click on our "patron" tab, and then click "Join patron here". We appreciate your support.
What is something you're learning right now?
Jeff Henderson: One of the things we're learning right now, we're in the early stages of empty nesting. What is that like? I mean, don't tell my kids this, but we're loving this. And it's great because we need to have a little bit more extra time. [00:22:35]
But we're also learning how to leverage the time when Jesse comes home from college to make sure... How do we go? We went from a family of four to a family of three when Jesse went to college. So how do we parent Cole a little bit differently? And now he's driving now. So we're trying to figure all that out. So we're learning the role of empty nesting and we're enjoying it. But we also love when the family gets back together.
The other thing I'm learning here at Gwinnett Church is we are about to open up a second location. So I'm going to be lead pastor over both locations for a season. So what I've had to ask myself is what do I need to stop doing in order to be able to take on two campuses? Because I've got to grow and be a better leader. But to do that, I'm going to have to stop doing some things and delegate some things to other leaders around here. So trying to figure out that list of what do I need to stop doing in order to maximize and leverage this new season for me? [00:23:36]
Then the other thing I'm trying to do, Laura, is just trying to keep up pace with technology. Actually, my daughter is teaching me to be better in terms of Instagram design, in terms of photographs. The other thing I love about this is just spending some time with my daughter. And she's training me. I think she's loving that.
So I'm trying to stay up to speed with technology, which I would concur with everyone that that's an impossible goal. So I want to have one thing that I'm doing that will help me learn. So we downloaded an Instagram app and she's helping me kind of get a little bit better, a lot better about photo design on Instagram.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. I know that you often bring up thought-provoking questions. So what are a few questions that listeners can start asking themselves today to take a step toward their own growth?
Jeff Henderson: I would take the two questions we started with, we put it in kind of an organizational or business or church context. What do you want to be known for? What are you known for? I would take those two questions and I would apply them to you personally. What do you want to be known for and what are you known for? [00:24:41]
Those are two powerful questions. They're challenging questions. We've talked about Truett Cathy, Truett's life versus a good name is better than great riches. So he wanted to make sure that he had a good name. I think that's great. We have a brand. It's called You. I know we don't like to think of ourselves as a brand, but we all have a personal brand. Okay? And we also carry an emotional climate around with us.
I did a sermon series not too long ago at our church called Climate Change. Basically what I meant by that is you have a climate and that climate follows you into the conference room, that climate follows you into the dinner table, that climate follows you into your relationships. But many times we don't know what the climate is.
Our creative team created this video where people walked into a meeting, Laura, and they all had these weather symbols on top of their heads. There was one person that walked in that, had a storm cloud over their head, and everybody knew to stay away from that person because she wasn't having a great day that day. [00:25:42]
What that illustrated, though, is that everyone around the table knew to stay away from that person, but her she wasn't aware of what her storm cloud, her climate was communicating to everyone in the room. That leads me to another question, which is this one. It's a very challenging question. But I would encourage everyone to ask three people in your life this question. And that is: what's it like to be on the other side of me? What's it like to be on the other side of me?
The reality for you and me, Laura, and all of our listeners, we don't know what it's like to be on the other side of us because we've never been there. And when you ask that question, you're going to get three pieces of information. The first piece of information, you're going to get some encouraging information about you. The second is you're going to get some surprising information about you. And the third is you're going to get your feelings hurt. As a result of this, it's going to take some courage for you and me to ask that question.
But here's what happens. And this is so important to understand. [00:26:43] If we don't have the courage to ask that question, it doesn't mean the information goes away. It's still there. We just don't have the courage to access the information. And in that moment, what happens is, is a person puts a lid on top of his or her potential. Because many times it's not the smart, hard skills, if you will, the intelligence, the SAT scores that hold us back. It's really the emotional intelligence, the soft skills or the lack thereof that is the biggest thing that holds people back. I've seen that in the business world. I've seen that in the nonprofit world.
Soft skills rule the day. And those that have soft skills, emotional intelligence combined with real talent will succeed every single time over those who have very smart technical skills, but have a lack of emotional awareness of how they are coming across. So what's it like to be on the other side of me? And then those two questions, what do you want to be known for and what are you known for? You apply those to you personally, that's going to really help you, I think, take steps toward the person you want to be. [00:27:52]
Laura Dugger: Those are incredible. I wonder if listeners are feeling the same way I am. It just feels like a power mentoring session right now. So if they want to go one step further, where can listeners now find your book or connect with you online?
Jeff Henderson: I would love for them to go to jeffhenderson.com or the For company, forcompany.com. Both of those provide some free resources. But at jeffhenderson.com, you'll find a variety of free resources that are there for you just to get better, to improve, to kind of close the gap between those two questions.
Then they can just follow me on Instagram at @jeffhenderson. Anything that they can do to kind of spread the word on the book, I would be very, very appreciative of.
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Well, we will link to all of that in our show notes. Jeff, you may remember from last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight, or discernment. So we would all love to hear what is your savvy sauce? [00:28:55]
Jeff Henderson: Again, Laura, I told you this last time. This is such a great question. It's such a hard question because I hate to kind of boil it down to just one. But I'll go back to another thing my mentor, Steve Polk, told me. And he said, Jeff, leave things better than you found them. Leave things better than you found them. So you're here for a season and in every area of your life. So when you leave, whatever it is, leave things better.
Another way to put this is one of my life goals is to be found faithful. Jesus said, when I come back, am I going to find faith? And so if Jesus were to come back today, I would want Him to look at my life and say, Oh, wow, I found you faithful. That's awesome. But to do that, you have to leave things better than you found them.
So I wanted to leave Chick-fil-A better than I found it. I wanted to leave Buckhead Church better than I found it. And when I eventually leave Gwinnett Church, I want to leave Gwinnett Church better than I found it. And so having that principle and having a mindset of it's not about me, but it's about me being here to improve the organization and move it forward. [00:30:03] What did I do today to leave things better than when I found it? So that was something Steve Polk spoke into my life that I've never really forgotten. And goodness, that's been over three years ago.
Laura Dugger: Wow. It's just so inspiring just listening to you speak, for all of us to find a mentor. It sound like you've learned so much through your mentors. Thank you for mentoring all of us today. It's just been such a treasure time to get to stay under your teaching and your wisdom. I'm so excited for everybody to get their hand on this resource. So thanks for joining us today, Jeff.
Jeff Henderson: Laura, thanks for having me back for a second time. I look forward to doing this again sometime in the future. Thanks so much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:31:05]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:32:07]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:33:05]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 30, 2019
Monday Sep 30, 2019
76. Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 13:12 (NIV) “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.”
Dr. Jessica McCleese is a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist with special training in sex education from a Christian perspective. She is also a wife and a lover of coffee, good books and travel. She is currently involved in a project with Dr. Rosenau, author of Celebration of Sex, to teach teens how to enjoy their friendships and dating relationships while holding to Christian convictions. Additionally, she serves on the advisory board at Millennials for Marriage- a group that aims to encourage millennials to be equipped for marriage.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Dr. Jessica McCleese’s Website
The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
Torn Asunder by David M. Carder & Duncan Jaenicke
Previous Episodes on The Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord:
Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: If you love to cook or know someone who does, then you should check out The Cookery, Inc. in Morton. Whether you're new to the culinary world or a pro just looking for some modern tips, they have the class for you. All their classes are taught by trained chefs and all classes finish with a gourmet meal. Visit them today at thecookeryinc.com. That's thecookeryinc.com.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Today I am thrilled to welcome back Dr. Jessica McCleese. She is a wife, licensed psychologist, certified sex therapist, and certified sexual educator. We are going to talk about what to do in seasons when marriage is not going well, such as ongoing high conflict, infidelity, and infertility. These are heavy topics, yet I hope that you feel supported if you're facing this right now in your marriage. [00:01:27]
Here's our chat.
Welcome back, Dr. McCleese.
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Thanks so much for having me again.
Laura Dugger: Well, we're thrilled that you could join us again. For those who missed our previous episode, would you mind telling us more about yourself?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am a licensed psychologist in the state of Virginia and I'm also a certified sex therapist. All that came about really I have a history of my own personal stories of sexual trauma and molestation and things like that. And those things really drove me to trying to seek a little bit of help.
What's funny is I actually had a roommate in college. We lived together for a year and I probably, if you took that whole year and all of the time we spoke, it probably didn't even equal more than an hour and a half, which is funny because I'm quite talkative now and I do it for a living. But that year that we had together, I probably didn't speak to her more than an hour and a half total.
She at one point had told me that I needed to get some counseling because clearly I had some issues. And I think she said it in a really nice and loving way. [00:02:27] But I had told her, "If you set it up, I'll go." And in my mind, I kind of thought she wouldn't care enough to set it up. So I thought I was kind of getting out of having to go. But she did set it up that day, came home, handed me a piece of paper, and said, "Well, here's your first appointment."
I went into that session, and I don't know what happened in the session. I guess it was God giving wisdom to my counselor. But within I don't know, maybe 10 minutes, it seemed like almost immediate, he asked me, or he told me, I think, "You've been sexually abused, haven't you?" And that's what started my process of healing and eventually me changing my degree plan. So I had started out going into youth ministry, and that changed my degree plan eventually to go into counseling when I realized how helpful it was.
So quite a journey there. But because of my own abuse in the past and because of just what I saw in family and friendship relationships, I really got a heart for marriage, and I really got a heart for wanting to help people in their sexual lives so that they can learn to be sexually whole.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for the vulnerability and sharing the true backstory. As a therapist, where do you begin when a couple does come in to see you and they've been experiencing a long season of high conflict? [00:03:35]
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I do work with a lot of couples. Probably about 80% of my caseload are couples that are coming in and most of the time it's high conflict. The reason I say most of the time is because for most couples, they actually don't seek any kind of counseling or therapy help until they've been trying for up to about five years and finding that whatever they're putting into place just simply isn't working.
Most of the people that come to see me are still committed to one another, but they're at a place where they actually don't feel like their marriage can be saved because they've tried for so long and they haven't seen any results.
One of the first things I do is I try to get a good history of the relationship. So I want to know how long a couple has dated, why they originally got together to begin with, what attracted them to one another. I like to look at ups and downs of their relationship. I'm basically getting a bird's-eye view of their entire history together.
So we'll talk about ups and downs, what have been the highlights, what have been the really painful places for you guys. And then we learn a little bit about conflict resolution together. So I'll ask them, what does it look like when you guys argue? Who takes the lead in asking for forgiveness or reconciliation? [00:04:41]
So I'm looking for behavioral patterns that the couple has with one another. And so we'll look through those different stages of the relationship and see when it's been probably at the easiest and when it's been at the hardest. Look for anything that they can hold onto as positives also during the relationship.
So if a couple's going to stay together, like I said, it could be up to five years before they come in to seek professional counseling, and so if they've stayed together through high conflict, they obviously want to stay together. There's something that says we should continue this, even if it's really hard. So we look for those positive things of what's happening.
For some couples, it's simply that we parent well together, and that's all that they can offer me. For some couples, it might be, well, we both love Jesus, and He says you should stay together, so we're trying. And sometimes that's all they have is their faith background to stand on. For some couples it's "we get along well when we're alone, but if other people around, for some reason, the tension rises, and we just can't seem to stand each other."
So it just really depends. But we look for the positives that each person has. For some couples, I've had couples that have a lot of fun together, but they can't do anything serious. [00:05:44] So making decisions or having hard conversations doesn't work for them, but generally speaking, they enjoy one another. Some couples are heavily committed to one another but they actually don't enjoy each other at all.
And so it really depends on the starting place for each couple which can be different from one couple to the next. But we look for positives mainly and that's what helps us kind of hold on to something in the midst of figuring out how to problem-solve as well. So I have several techniques that I walk couples through once I see what their actual difficulty is that they're bringing to this session.
Laura Dugger: Let's go further into some of those techniques then. If one of those couples comes in to see you and they want to start moving in the right direction, how do you help them get on the right track?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am actually becoming a really big fan of something called the Enneagram. You can actually take a test online to see what your Enneagram type is. And it's a cheap test. It's only 12 bucks. So that's a really great place to start for a couple. [00:06:43]
This particular measure, it gives you somewhere around 10 pages of single-spaced text telling you about your personality. Someone asked me recently if it was similar to the Myers-Briggs, and I would say not really. Like, it does give you a type like the Myers-Briggs does, but it's got much more information that it's giving you.
What's unique about the Enneagram is it looks kind of at how our personalities affect us as far as what I would call our tendency to live in sin. We're all sinners, and so we have these things that we bring to our relationships because of our imperfections and because of our sin nature. The Enneagram kind of gives us a chance to look at what are those places that hold you the deepest and the darkest? What are those places where you're most prone to sin?
So, for instance, anger is a sin. Well, at least when we act in anger. Feeling anger is not a sin. But if we're yelling at one another and name-calling, that would be a sin. There are things like pride that can be very sinful for people. There can be arrogance. Things like that. [00:07:42] So what it does is it kind of looks at what your human nature brings to the equation.
And oftentimes when couples are in high conflict, it's because they're each bringing these things to the relationship that cause tension. And they don't need to, but they're bringing things that directly feel like an attack to their spouse. So what we try to look at is what those things are that feels like you're being attacked.
So often couples will tell you, no, you know, I don't think that my spouse is just out to get me or wants to make my life miserable. But in the way they describe conflict, it sounds like that's exactly what they feel. So there's this dissonance that rests within each individual in the couple where they say, no, I know you're not out to get me, but by golly, it feels like you're out to get me and you're always against me and you're not a team player.
So what we try to do is remove those things by figuring out what is that underlying personality feature in you that causes tension in your spouse. Once we learn those things, we can prayerfully start getting rid of some of those more negative features of ourselves. Because we all have it. We're born into sin and we live with a brokenness. [00:08:43]
So we have to constantly let Christ work in us. And in the midst of Him working in us, we have to kind of understand what our tendencies are that most often holds me captive. Because until you can figure that out and let Christ start working on you, you're not going to have a successful relationship. So that's a big piece, is the Enneagram.
Then I'm really big on personal responsibility. So any kind of fight or any kind of conflict that's happening in a couple, we each have our own personal responsibility that we're bringing to that relationship. So my couples that I work with learn quickly that as we're doing problem-solving, I keep going back to, Now hold on, what can you do differently? Not what you want your spouse to do differently. What can you do differently to make this a better situation?
So that's a big part of what my work is, is constantly helping people look at what they personally need to resolve in their own lives to have a stronger relationship with their spouse.
Laura Dugger: I love that. It's so empowering to each person because then they have a sense of control because they can work on themselves when you can't control the other person. [00:09:46] I love that you also mentioned the Enneagram. If anybody's curious, do you mind sharing your number with us?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. So I'm a 5. If you want to know more about a 5, you can actually read a book called The Road Back to You, and it'll help you. But I'm going to give you just kind of a little bit of an understanding of what that means.
One of the things that's big for me is I am a listener, which can be good. I mean, it helps me in the world of therapy. But also one of the more negative sides of that is it means it's hard for me to express my own needs at times because I'd rather just sit back and listen.
So, of course, that can cause an issue because it can cause resentment if I'm not careful about it because I want to know why people aren't asking what I need or I'm going to want to know why people aren't taking care of what I would consider the things that anybody should know that are important to me. So that can be an issue where it kind of, you know, can hurt me. So that's definitely a thing.
Probably one of the bigger ugly things is that I have a tendency to not want to involve others in my life to help take care of me. [00:10:46] That's something I've had to learn, especially in times of crisis, that I need other people, that I don't need to retreat and just try to do it all on my own.
So that's one of the things about a five also is we really think that we can just kind of do our own thing and not involve others. But the ugly side of that is we can think that of others also. We think others can do their own thing and take care of themselves. And so there's a push sometimes probably in the world of counseling where I might push people a little harder than I should have. "You can do this."
I try to make it always sound really encouraging, but that would be an area of weakness where I have to watch for it and make sure I'm not trying to push too hard for people, but really allowing them to work in their strength as well.
So this is one of the reasons why the Enneagram is helpful, because I can look at my own faults and learn to work on those with Christ's help to make them more of a strength, which, of course, sounds like a good interview question, right? So here's my weakness, but this is how I make it a strength. But that's really what the Enneagram is supposed to do, is to help you get to that place.
I like to sit back and watch people instead of be involved with people. [00:11:46] And so that obviously can be an issue. Something I had to learn early on in my marriage, how not to let that interfere with our relationship and our coming together. So it's things like that why I think the Enneagram is important.
There's way more features. Those are just a few I just threw out. But that's part of why I think it's helpful for couples to know their type, because they can see where they're hurting one another. But the idea behind that also is not to sit in this place of, well, I'm a five, so it's just who I am. But instead to say, Okay, I know this is a weakness of mine, and I know this is something that can impact us negatively. So since that's the case, I need to come a little closer and work on those things so that I can have a relationship with you."
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Thank you for sharing.
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure.
Laura Dugger: What is some common homework that you suggest for your clients as they do pursue healthy conflict resolution?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: I always recommend a date night once a week. That's just an absolute necessity. I have plenty of couples that tell me that they don't have time for date night. But I constantly say, We got to do that. We got to find time together. [00:12:50]
And when you're doing date night, you're not allowed to have any arguments. If something comes up you write it down on a piece of paper and you come back to that in another moment that we call "couch time". I'm going to explain that in a minute. But date night is just for date night.
So often when we're in conflict, we don't want to have our moments of letting those things go and that's part of how it builds, but we really need those moments just to connect as friends and be kind of lovers. That doesn't necessarily mean sex, but just being intimately connected with one another. So that's one part is date night where no conflict is allowed.
Then what I call "couch time" is where you sit down on the couch and you take maybe 20 minutes and you each note some things that need to be worked on in the relationship. and you come up with a way to work on it. So your conflict resolution is actually limited to certain times that you put together as this is when we're going to work on things.
Now, every couple has conflict from time to time, and as you learn to resolve it, you don't necessarily have to say, Okay, Thursday at five, we're going to have our conflict resolution session. You can resolve it then. But for couples that are in high conflict, I do say, let's hold all conflict aside and we address it at one time during the week. [00:13:59] And we limit that time. Because the idea is to not get you so engulfed in that that you can't live your life anymore.
Sometimes that means the only time we're going to address conflict is in the office for a few weeks until you guys gain some skills where you can do that on your own. So sometimes couples... that's what I'll tell them is let's just do the conflict resolution here in the office so that you guys will feel more comfortable with this piece.
Laura Dugger: That's such a practical application. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: What encouragement do you have for couples who have experienced infidelity?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Gosh, that's such a big one. I would say probably one of my favorite resources for couples that have experienced infidelity is a book called Torn Asunder. That would be probably one of my top things I would tell couples, Grab that book, start reading through it, because there's just a whole world of things that couples need to work through when infidelity has been in their relationship. That's a really excellent resource.
One of the things that we need to do pretty quickly is... first of all, don't make big decisions in that first year. If you find out that your spouse has had an affair and you're thinking, Well, I don't know if I want to stay or not, I always tell couples, don't make a knee-jerk reaction here. So if you find out on a Friday night, my goodness, don't go to the attorney on Monday and start the divorce process. You need to give yourself time to actually really think about and process the situation. The knee-jerk reaction is oftentimes something that people want to jump into. [00:17:04]
As you start that process, look at the book Torn Asunder, look at going to a Christian counselor. But the big thing is we want to take an entire assessment of your relationship. The same thing that I would do with couples when it's heavy conflict resolution time and we need to look through those things, we're going to do the same thing in an affair.
We're going to look at, you know, what was your dating relationship like? What were the early years like? What has it been like since then? Highs and lows. And we're going to see what has happened in your relationship that caused you not to be safeguarded.
There's never been a couple get married and think, "Hey, you know, in a couple of years, I guess I'll have an affair. We'll work through that." It's just not expected when you get married. So instead, we have to look at what kind of came against you, what boundaries weren't in place that need to be in place.
Most couples never think we need to sit down and have a discussion about what we can and can't do as a couple. Most couples never think about how do we safeguard ourselves from an affair because most people just don't expect that's going to happen in their relationship. [00:18:02]
One of the things that couples have that have been through an affair that no other couple has is they realize how tender that can be and how much could come against them as a couple. And so they understand how to start setting boundaries. But really the best way to safeguard your relationship is to set those boundaries and figure out what feels comfortable and what doesn't and figure out how to have a healthy relationship long before anything comes against you where an affair has happened.
Laura Dugger: I love that point. Do you have any specific examples that come to mind of boundaries that your clients have put in place to help safeguard their own marriages?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Yeah. So you know what? Mike Pence, I don't know, gosh, quite some time ago, but there is an article out about him and some boundaries he had put in place. And I saw a lot of people talking about how weak he must be to put those boundaries up. They gave him all kinds of ugly names. But the reality is he and his wife had set up some pretty great boundaries.
Some of the boundaries that I think are helpful is just to really safeguard any relationships where you're talking to the opposite sex more often than you need to. [00:19:05] I know that's really ambiguous, but... let me put it this way. Let me give you some that me and my husband have, and maybe that'll help.
There's never been an affair in our history, but we just know we want to safeguard ourselves. And so some of the things we do is I'm not alone with another male, not to eat dinner, not to go out for coffee. Now, I've done some of that for marketing purposes, but when I do, I ask my husband first, I tell him where we're going to be, and we go out for just one hour to talk about how to pass business to one another, okay? And then I tell my husband about that.
So there are times when I do that from a business standpoint, and I know there are other people that have business relationships. Like attorneys, for instance, they're going to meet with people alone because that's what you do as an attorney. You don't broadcast your meetings. There are people in therapy offices like myself. I mean, I meet with the door closed in a therapy office. So I know that sometimes work interferes with that kind of a relationship. But you want to put into place where you're not spending time alone with somebody.
We think sometimes that if my relationship is good, I don't have to worry necessarily about a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. [00:20:05] But the truth is attraction starts because we spend a lot of time together. So attraction starts because we pass each other often and we start talking more often. Attraction starts because we develop a relationship or I'm telling you about my life and you're telling me about yours. So what we want to do is just safeguard that.
Then if you feel any attraction rising for somebody else... Again, that's part of our human nature. So if you feel attraction rising to somebody else to really have a sit down with a good close friend and maybe even your spouse to say, "Look, I'm finding myself attracted to this person. We need to not spend time with them."
That could even be if my husband and I have friends that are a couple friends of ours, we would have to spend less time with them if either one of us had an attraction to them. Now, we probably wouldn't tell the other couple, right, because we're not trying to start anything up. But really that honesty with one another of, hey, I'm human, I can be weak in my humanity, and there are times when I might feel attractions for other people.
Because feeling an attraction is not a sin at all. [00:21:04] That's just part of our human nature. That's how God created us, to notice one another. But acting on any attraction is a sin. I mean, simple actions, like just thinking about what it would be like to be with them, and not even a romantic sense, but what would it be like for my husband to be so and so instead of the one I have. That is a sinful interaction, because you're allowing yourself to start fantasizing about a relationship you're not supposed to have.
Laura Dugger: What about the couple that is walking through something like this? We would love to offer hope and encouragement to the couple listening right now that's in the midst of this struggle. So do you have any stories or examples of couples who are better off after working through this in their own marriage?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Oh goodness, yes. So what's interesting is if you survey couples, like if you survey a thousand couples, couples that have worked through an affair and gotten to the other side are going to report higher levels of happiness than couples that have never been through an affair.
John Gottman has talked about this too. He kind of laughs and says but this is no reason to have an affair. [00:22:05] And it's true. But what happens with couples that have been through an affair is they have to face reality that the relationship is really tender and that it could be broken.
And in that time of facing reality, they start looking at their entire history of where have we hurt one another? Where have our weaknesses been? Where have I not asked for forgiveness for places I've done wrong to you? Where do I need reconciliation? What boundaries do I need to feel safe?
There's a lot of stuff they work on where all of a sudden they're in a place where they can say, you know what, I feel completely safe with you because I know that you're going to do me right. I know that I can come to you and tell you when I have an issue or a problem. So they're at a place that a lot of couples sadly never get because many couples never realize the deep need for those conversations.
So, couples that are working through an affair or think, Gosh, I don't know if my relationship can be healed because we had an affair, my heart's cry is that those couples would seek out Christian counseling and start working through that process. Because the truth is couples that have been through an affair and will seek recovery, they really do well if they'll go through that process. [00:23:09]
Laura Dugger: That is really encouraging. You guys, you seriously do not want to miss out on our patron guest from September, Tracey LeGrand. She's a returning guest, but this episode is available to paying patrons only. She teaches us more about the science of female orgasm, shares how couples can enjoy a more pleasure-filled sex life, and she brings some scripture to life in a new way I've never considered.
Please don't miss out. Pledge $5 today and receive this episode and many others when you visit thesavvysauce.com and click on our Patreon tab, then click "Join Patreon here". If you join before November 1st, you're going to receive an extra surprise. We know you're gonna love it.
Another difficult part of marriage can come in when couples experience infertility. What ways have you witnessed this affecting a marriage?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: That's actually an area that my husband and I struggled with as well. I write about that on my blog. There's a lot of areas where that can impact the marriage pretty negatively. [00:24:12] So couples that experience infertility, if they're trying really hard to time intercourse and make sure that they can get pregnant, one of the big struggles they can have is all of a sudden any kind of sexual interaction feels a little forced.
It feels like, well, you've got to wait until we're fertile, so let's not have sex tonight, even though we both want to. Then it might be the next night, "Hey, I know we're both really tired, but we got to do this." So it becomes almost a checklist task. That's one of the ways that it can really hurt couples.
Another is just the shared grief. When we're grieving in our relationships because something horrible has happened in our lives, we just have a hard time connecting. So some couples will find that those areas of grief help them to connect in a greater way than they ever have before. But sometimes it actually becomes kind of a wedge. And when it becomes a wedge within the couple where they each struggle to connect or to kind of let each other in emotionally, then you're going to see more difficulties in the relationship.
For infertility, you're kind of going through the grieving process every month. And especially if for some reason a woman's period is a little late, [00:25:16] and then she starts, there can be that grief of "I really thought that this was the month. I really thought we were going to make this big announcement. This is horribly depressing."
And for men, it can feel that way too. That constant "I'm watching my wife here go through these horrible struggles. I'm going through them myself. How can I be the protector and take care of her when I can't even take care of my own emotional side? So it just kind of becomes a lot of upheaval and emotional discomfort during those times.
Those are the two ways I would say. So difficulty with the intimacy and difficulty because of the emotions that can impact a couple pretty negatively.
Laura Dugger: And as you talk about coming together in grief, what if both of those spouses process their grief very differently? Let's just say one doesn't like to talk about it and one needs to verbally process, how would you coach them?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: In those cases, I would say it's a good time to really hang on to your same-sex friendships. For instance, I'm definitely more verbal than my husband. Now, that doesn't mean that he doesn't talk to me. He does. [00:26:19] But if we look at how many words we each need, I need far more than he does. So we process a little differently. He's more internal. I'm probably a little more external in my need for processing.
So some of the ways for couples, if they're doing that, or if they have that kind of a connection where one is more verbal and one is more "I need time to myself," I would encourage them, for the one that's more verbal, to really have a good set of close same-sex friends where you can process a lot of those emotions and what's going on so that when you go to your spouse, you have more of like the condensed Reader's Digest version of maybe two to three sentences instead of two hours of emoting.
That's not wrong to do with your friends, right? So that's a good thing. And it's not wrong with your spouse to be in a place where you can connect with them more fully because you're on kind of a same level playing field there.
Then for the person who likes to process more internally, even though it's not maybe your preferred way of doing things, I would say for that person to make sure that you're pushing yourself to talk about what's going on, even if that means that you need to write it out at first, or even if you need to sit for an hour and think, okay, what are my big emotions for this particular situation, and then bring that to your spouse. [00:27:31]
Because really both of you do need to still connect emotionally and connect heart-to-heart by talking to one another. But when you both just do it differently, it is okay to seek some outside friendships before having those conversations with your spouse.
Laura Dugger: This is so helpful. While we're on this topic, it's unique because it can also affect friendship. So what helpful tips do you have for people on both sides of this equation, both the couple facing infertility and they're friends of that couple, especially if they have children?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: My husband and I have missed a few kids' birthday parties because we've had times, you know, where we just couldn't do it. We couldn't hang out with friends, even though we love our friends, because it was incredibly painful.
So I would say if you're going through infertility, and really my husband and I now are at a place where we're beyond the really deep difficulties of it, so we're at the place we can go to the kids' birthday parties, we can celebrate with our friends. We're good there. There's still a tenderness where we would like to have our own biological children one day, and then probably adoption is actually what we'll do. [00:28:34]
But even with that, we've crossed the bridge where we can actually connect more. But in those places where we couldn't, and what I believe is helpful for other couples, is to just really know where you're at. And so if you're at a place where you just can't connect right now to someone because they have kids running around and it's really heavy for you, like especially if you're at that place where you thought it was happening this month and then you realize it's not, don't go to the birthday party. It's okay. Skip it out.
Hopefully, your friends are in a place where they can understand, where you can let them know, Hey, I love you and I want to celebrate with you, but today is a hard day and I need some space. My hope would be that you'd be able to let your friends know that and they'd be able to sit with you in that place and be okay with it. But I would say, know yourself, first of all. Know where your emotions are.
Then for friends of people that are going through infertility, I have heard everything from, God opens and closes the womb, so let's pray, as if, you know, my husband and I had never thought to pray about it. I've heard people give us advice about how often we need to have sex, which is really weird to tell your friends and start asking about those things. People don't typically ask about frequency in your marriage. So I would say stay away from those questions. [00:29:39]
I've heard a lot of people talk about, Hey, if you just read this book, or I have a friend that that happened to, and then they adopted and then they got pregnant. So people try to offer all this advice when in reality, if you're a friend of somebody who's having infertility issues, I would encourage you just sit with them. Just sit with them and say, Man, you're right, this is hard. Gosh, I hate that you're going through this. Can I pray for you? Can I hug on you? Like I would say, sit in that place where you can just be with your friend and let them grieve.
It's just not fun to be sitting in grief and then people give you all their problem-solving ways of how one day it might be better Or I've had people pray and say, "Oh, no, I know it's gonna happen. God has shown me. "Well, the reality is sometimes it doesn't happen for people. Sometimes people never have kids. And that's okay. They can still have a very good life without having their own children. But in the midst of that they just need to know that they're loved and they're cared for and that even if that pain exists, they can still have a good life. So if you're in the place where you're trying to help your friends, what I would say is just love on them, be okay sitting in their grief with them. [00:30:43]
Laura Dugger: Wow, you've just been so incredibly helpful today. There's so much more that we could cover on all of these topics. But if listeners do want to connect with you further, whether that's scheduling an appointment or reading your blog, where can they find you?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. Sure. You can go to BeFullyWell.com, and that is B like the word, B-E. So BeFullyWell.com, and you can find all of my information on there. Social media sites are listed there, my articles are listed there, and even contact information is listed at the top and the bottom of the page where you can connect right away with me.
Laura Dugger: We've covered quite a few deep and heavier topics, and I like to end with a playful question. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" means practical knowledge. So Dr. McCleese, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: My website kind of tells you "be fully well". I'm a big fan of looking at the entire system. So even if you were to come to counseling with me because you have conflict in your relationship, I'm gonna want to know from a physical standpoint if you're taking care of yourself, I'm gonna want to know emotionally speaking if you're giving yourself time to care for your soul. And spiritually, I'm gonna wonder how you're doing. So I don't limit it just to the relationship. [00:32:00]
So I would say look at all four areas of your life. So physical, that's diet and exercise, right? So diet and exercise, mood-wise, that's the place emotionally, how am I functioning? Relationally, how do I look at my relationships with others? Not just with your spouse, but with others, how do I function? And then spiritually, Are there things that I used to enjoy doing with God that I don't do anymore? So have I broken away from some of my spiritual roots?
We want to look at each of those areas and see which one is the lowest functioning right now, which one needs the most care? Then I would say hit that one for a little while, even if it's just a week or two where you really look at what can I do differently in this area. So we'll just go with spirituality. So maybe you know, I am just not quite where I want to be spiritually speaking, then I would say take a couple of weeks and really figure out how can I start making sure I'm doing a devotional in the morning.
What day can I put aside where maybe I have an hour during that day where I can really just focus on loving God and maybe getting back to the basics of some of my scripture reading, or spending some time in prayer, or even just listening to some worship music? Then you would do that with each area of your life and see what's the one that I need to work on this week, and then what's one thing I can do to work on that. So not all at once, that's way overwhelming, but just one piece of that, what should I do this week? [00:33:18]
Laura Dugger: You articulate things so well, and you've just given us extremely practical tips to apply today. Thank you so much for sharing all of your help and hope for everyone listening today.
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure thing. Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:34:18]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:22]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:22]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.