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Monday Nov 04, 2019
Monday Nov 04, 2019
81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith
**Transcription Below**
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith is an author, speaker, and board-certified internal medicine physician. She has an active medical practice in Alabama (near the Birmingham area). She received her B.S. in Biochemistry at the University of Georgia and graduated with honors from Meharry Medical College in Nashville. She has been an adjunct faculty member at Baker College and Davenport University in Michigan teaching courses on health, nutrition, and disease progression. Dr. Dalton-Smith is a national and international media resource on the mind, body, spirit connection and a top 100 medical expert in Good Housekeeping Doctors’ Secrets. She has been featured in many media outlets including Women’s Day, Redbook, First For Women, MSNBC, and Prevention. She is the author of Set Free to Live Free and Come Empty (winner 2016 Golden Scroll Nonfiction Book of the Year and 2016 Illumination Award Gold medalist). Her newest release is Sacred Rest: Recover Your Life, Renew Your Energy, Restore Your Sanity, including ground-breaking insight on the seven types of rest needed to optimize your productivity, increase your overall happiness and live your best life. She has shared her tips on merging faith and medicine with over 16,000 health care professionals to encourage the current and next generation of doctors to treat the whole person. Learn more about Dr. Saundra at IChooseMyBestLife.com.
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Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith’s Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: If you've listened to The Savvy Sauce for very long, you know I'm a big fan of our sponsor, FabFitFun. Now the 2019 Winter Box is on pre-sale. Visit them at FabFitFun.com and enter code SAVVY at checkout for $10 off your first box.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith is my guest today, and we will discuss stories and applications she discovered through research for her recent book, Sacred Rest. This goes beyond recommending more sleep. She's going to break down seven different types of rest for us to intentionally engage with so that we can become restored. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Dalton-Smith.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: Excited for you to join us. And for anyone who isn't familiar yet with you and your work, can you just give us an overview of who you are and what you do? [00:01:20]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Absolutely. I'm an internal medicine physician and author. I live right outside of the Birmingham, Alabama area, and I have two boys ages 13 and 14. I'm married to the love of my life, we've been together now for 19 years.
Laura Dugger: You've recently written a book, and I just appreciate your openness in your book about becoming a wounded healer. So can you share how there was a tragic event in your infancy that set you on this path to pursue rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I started off in a situation where I really just felt like God had not been fair to me, if I'm going to be completely honest, and it left really a deep wounding. That was when I was born, my mother died about three days after childbirth, and my father at the time was in the military. So he had come home for the birth, but he went in expecting to leave with the family, and he ended up leaving the hospital with just an infant. So he wasn't prepared for that. [00:02:21]
So he gave me to my great-grandmother to raise and went back to the military to finish up with his tour. So my whole thought concept of home was one that... I looked at home as this place I was trying to get to, this place of security and love and acceptance and just everything being whole. That wasn't how my childhood was. That wasn't how it felt. It didn't feel whole.
When I looked at other families and other kids in my class who had a mom and a dad, and I had neither. This orphan spirit, this wounding resonated, I think, into the rest of my life. I really believe that's part of the reason I became a doctor.
Laura Dugger: I remember reading in your book that that was even part of your process in turning ultimately to God. Is that right?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: It was. Because I kept trying to find peace in things. Maybe if I got enough accolades, and maybe if I got enough degrees, and if I got enough awards, that some way that I would get to this place of feeling whole. [00:03:26] And none of those things satisfied. None of those things led me to that place, except for God.
Laura Dugger: Well, definitely a tragic journey, but I'm so glad for that ending that you found Him. You've written extensively about rest, which rest can seem like such a simple process. So why do you think so many people struggle with fatigue and insomnia?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I think that the issue is, is that many of us have combined the concepts of sleep and rest. So we think we're resting when we're really not. We call things rest that are not restorative. That's the big mindset shift that most people have to make is that rest should equal restoration. When you're doing something that you're calling rest, if you can't tell me what's being restored, then it's not true rest.
For example, you know, people are constantly saying, well, I'm going to rest on the weekend and they go watch Netflix or they just lay around on the couch. [00:04:29] But nothing is truly intentionally being restored. That's how we relieve that fatigue. Whether the fatigue is spiritual or mental or emotional or physical, we relieve it by restoring that area.
Laura Dugger: So let's just lay a foundation with definitions then. What is the distinction between sleep and rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Sleep is purely physical. When you're thinking about sleeping, you're just talking about the physical aspects of resting. We're not going into the other parts of it. Within my book, I've noticed that there's actually seven different parts of rest. Rest is more inclusive. It includes everything that pertains to your life and your well-being and restoring all of those areas, not simply focusing on restoring the physical.
Laura Dugger: So let's elaborate then. Like you mentioned in your book, Sacred Rest, you do describe seven types of rest. So what are they? [00:05:28]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: The seven types are physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, social, sensory, and creative.
Laura Dugger: Okay. We can get a sense of what these types of rest are just from their names. But to gain a better understanding, could you just briefly define each type of rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes. Well, physical is probably the easiest one for most people to comprehend because we automatically think sleep. But in physical rest, we have to divide it up into active and passive. So sleep and napping are the passive types of physical rest. The active physical rest include things like stretching, anything really that improves your circulation and gets the lymphatics flowing. Like leisure walks, prayer walks, things where you're not trying to burn calories necessarily, but you're just trying to improve the circulation. Also with muscle tension release is another thing with physical rest.
Mental rest is allowing your mind to kind of get to that quiet place. [00:06:28] So for many people, that's a huge area. When they try to go to sleep at night, their mind's racing or they can't seem to turn their brain off. And so that's what mental rest does. It kind of gets everything to settle down in the head to clear that cerebral space.
Spiritual rest. I look at spiritual rest as building that relationship with God. Not so much focus on religion and the dogma related to that, but more of a focus on relationship and that feeling of belonging and love and acceptance that we get from that relationship.
Laura Dugger: Could you also elaborate... if somebody is longing for that mental rest, what are a few examples of something that's restorative?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yeah. With mental rest, one of the biggies is when people try to lay down at night to go to sleep. So if you're lying down and you're having one of those situations where you're ruminating over something, whether it's something you have to do the next day, kind of doing a mental checklist of your to-do list, or if you are rehashing a conversation or something that you wish you'd said different, it's recommended to do what we call mind dumping. [00:07:35]
So the way the brain works is it automatically wants to hold on to any information that you're ruminating over like that. So if you're able to put it on something concrete, like a piece of paper, I mean, it could be a post-it note, a journal, just some way of concretely getting it out of your head onto something. That way, your brain will allow you to let it go because it's preserved.
So you can always go back and look at that note card that says, oh, don't forget to do X, Y, Z in the morning. And it keeps your mind from holding on to it, trying to preserve it for you in that way.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so helpful. Then you said spiritual rest. What are some examples for that one as well?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, a fun one I do with teens when I'm discussing spiritual rest is to send yourself a text that states what you would need God to say for you in that day for you to feel loved. And what it does is it gets that whole mindset of relationship. Because of teens that's how they communicate now, everything's by a text message. [00:08:35]
So if God texts you, what would it say? What do you need to hear to know that He loves you unconditionally and that you're wanted and needed?
Laura Dugger: Thank you for clarifying. Those are the first three, and I'll let you continue on with the rest of them.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Emotional rest is that ability to be authentic and just express yourself truthfully. There's a lot of people-pleasing type behaviors that we adopt to try not to have confrontation with others. But really, personal boundaries require that there be some level of confrontation. By definition, that's what a boundary is.
So with emotional rest, it's giving yourself that freedom to be truthful, to use your nose appropriately, to really make decisions based on what is needed now in the moment. And maybe not necessarily what you've always done or what people expect of you, to have that freedom to just be authentic.
Laura Dugger: As a clinician, are there any specific relationships where you see this is really difficult for your patients? [00:09:38]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: I see it as being difficult for women more than men. There's kind of a perception that women should just be extra nice or nice to the point of sacrifice all the time, I guess maybe what I'm thinking. But there has to be some boundaries. You can't automatically become the go-to person for every bake sale just because you did it one time or the go-to person to teach Sunday school just because you did it two years ago.
You have to be able to actually say and feel the freedom to say when something no longer is a good fit and not to just do it because you don't want to make anyone mad.
Laura Dugger: That's a great word of encouragement. And you said that one was?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Emotional. Emotional is really closely tied with social because both of them have to do with people and how we interact with people. Social rest is the rest we get from our relationships. So every relationship either revives us or drains us. That doesn't mean that a relationship is good or bad. It's just the nature of how the dynamics are for that relationship. [00:10:46]
For example, your kids are always pulling from you. They're needing things. They're draining parts of you. But that doesn't mean they're bad. That's just the nature of that relationship. You're giving into their lives. Same with marriages.
But the flip side of that, both of them can also be restorative. But it just depends on what's going on in that moment, whether you are giving or you're receiving from that relationship. And so you have to recognize how different relationships pull on you.
There are always people in your life, particularly if you work outside the home, you may notice that you go into the room and a certain co-worker, every time you're around them, you just leave feeling ahrr. You feel like, Something about them just leaves me not feeling good.
When you recognize that about someone, it doesn't mean you can always avoid them. But it does open up an opportunity to make sure that you get restoration and whatever it is they're pulling from you. So with adults, one way of correcting that is to always be mindful of how regular you're getting time with your life-giving people. [00:11:51]
Your friends who don't need something from you all the time, but you just feel good to be around. To make sure that even with your spouse, that you're making time to just enjoy each other. And that your only face-to-face time isn't when you're arguing or when you're discussing the kids or paying bills and kind of doing the deep work. That you're actually spending some eye-to-eye, face-to-face time just loving on each other and talking to each other, communicating.
Laura Dugger: I have to admit, I think that was my favorite one to learn more about. Because at first glance, you think it means taking a break socially. But how you unpack it, finding more time to be around those life-giving people. I just feel like that provided a lot of freedom. I think a lot of listeners are like me. They're in a stage where they're with kids all the time. I felt like you gave the freedom not to feel guilty that you need some of those life-giving adult conversations and time spent together to recharge, really. [00:12:51]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: You do. Absolutely, you do. I think that's one of the reasons that when we look at studies, you know, when we're kids, we have all these friends. As adults, with social media, it looks like we have a lot of friends but those relationships are very superficial. They are not the deep kind of relationship where you can really feel like someone gets you.
So it's very important to make sure that there's a couple of people in your life who you really feel like are those life-givers. And to honor them with your time and with your presence. Because that's what you're getting from them is their time and their presence.
Laura Dugger: I think you put words to why date night with my husband each week, why that's such a highlight. And it fuels us in all areas.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yeah, that's awesome.
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Laura Dugger: So those are the first five. I'll let you continue with the final two types.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: The next is sensory rest. Sensory rest is the rest needed from the external stimuli that we get from our surroundings. For example, you mentioned being a mom. If you're a mom with girls, particularly, who have a tendency to be very high-pitched, and even their laughter is high-pitched so you're constantly hearing kind of high-pitched sounds, or you're working on the computer, or if your job requires you to be in an office space where you're hearing kind of that background hum from people talking in the background and phones ringing, all of that leaves our senses in a bit of a toxic state.
So sometimes people don't understand why, at the end of the day, they're just so agitated. That's that sensory overload that many of us live under, and we just kind of stay constantly tense. Well, sensory rest is undoing that. [00:16:07] It's getting back to the silence and an understanding of why dimming the lights on your computer as you're going into the evening can be beneficial to help lead you into deeper, higher-quality sleep.
It's kind of down-toning all of these stimuli that we have on a regular basis and making a point of getting back to just kind of some simplicity within our senses. Turning off the TV if no one's watching it. Driving in silence and not always having the radio on. All of these are ways to start getting more of it easily.
Laura Dugger: Even with brain research, are there certain people that are more genetically predisposed to be really sensitive to these sensory stimuli?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes. And if someone has a tendency to have higher cortisol levels, like their job is just naturally is more stressful, so they tend to have chronic increases in their catecholamines and their endorphins, those people really have to pay attention to this because it's almost like their body is just primed to be hyper. [00:17:11] And so you don't then want to feed that with even more external stimuli.
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. I'm curious, does that apply to somebody who's experienced trauma as well? Do you see any correlation there?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I think it depends on the type of trauma. I look at trauma in two ways. We have trauma that's more depressing. It brings you down. And then we have trauma that's more stimulating, that kind of keeps you heightened.
So if the trauma is in a way that was more stimulating, then, yes, any kind of excessive stimulation is going to kind of worsen that. If the trauma is more kind of depressing, that it's kind of suppressed your spirit more than agitated it, then I'm not thinking that's going to make up because you're already kind of in a down state. So that extra stimulation is probably just going to kind of make you look normal. No one would ever be able to tell the difference. [00:18:07]
However, someone who's had something traumatic that's more stimulating, you may even have noticed this. Like if someone drops a book in a library or restaurant, somebody drops a glass, it's like they're about to jump out of their skin. They're just so at the edge of their stimulation that any little extra is too much.
You also see it like if they go to something like a concert. There are some people who say, "I just can't stand loud music. I can't stand being at concert. It just really upsets me." And that's that kind of overstimulation coming out in a different form.
Laura Dugger: Okay. That's another reason why this book is so helpful. You give tips of how to restore that area. What is the final type of rest you cover?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: The last type is creative rest. It's probably my favorite because it's one that a lot of people have never even heard of. Some of these others, you may not know the specifics, but you at least have some idea.
But with creative rest, it's really allowing beauty to inspire awe and wonder inside of us. It's that playfulness that we all need, but we all try to act like we don't need it because we're grownups now. [00:19:14] I think that is probably my favorite.
When I tell people creative rest, the very first thing they start thinking about is, Ih, I need to take an art class or I need to do something like that. And really that's creative work because it's pulling on your creativity. And you have to remember rest is about being poured back into. It's about restoration.
So creative rest would be going to the theater and enjoying the art or going to a museum and letting the art inspire you or going outside your door and taking a walk in nature and looking at just nature and the things around you and allowing the beauty that you see to make something come alive inside of you.
Laura Dugger: I really like that one as well. But as a culture, why do you think we view rest as lazy or selfish or say that it's a luxury?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Within our culture, we really have made rest out to be just sitting around. We've made it out to be this just cessation of activity. And that's not what it is. You can cease activity and not restore anything. I mean, look at the majority of the population. We have sedentary jobs, and so you're sitting, but you're not restoring your body because the lymphatics and the circulation are getting stagnant. So you still are needing that body fluidity. [00:20:37]
When you change the mindset of what rest looks like, it no longer looks like a luxury or laziness. It looks like something that's vital for you to actually be at your best.
Laura Dugger: You even say that the greatest gift that we can give God and others is a rested, best version of ourselves. Do you have any scripture to kind of reinforce that point? Or how did you arrive at that conclusion?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, the scripture that I focus the book really around comes from Genesis. I don't quote the scripture specifically in the book, but that is the framework of actually how the book was created. When I look at Genesis, really chapters one and chapter two, we see that man was created on day six. Animals were created first, man was created. And after we were created, He told us to be fruitful and multiply. Basically gave us our assignment, gave us our mandate for what we were here for.
And then the next day after that was day seven. And on day seven, it says God rested. [00:21:37] Well, most of the time, we don't think about what man and woman did on that day. But if God rested, we were resting, too, because it was after that, at the second part of that second chapter, that it then starts talking about the work.
So many of us go about our work in a way that we think we have to work to earn our rest. Where if we look at just from the very beginning, we are to... after we get an understanding of who we are and what we're supposed to be doing, once our purpose is kind of clear, our job is to first rest and then we work from our rest, not work to rest.
Laura Dugger: That's an incredible paradigm shift. What are the long-term effects if we focus only on work and then omit regular periods of rest?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Well, I think we see it in media all the time where we see these really successful people and we hear about them ending their life because they just felt like they weren't worth being here anymore. [00:22:41]
I can totally understand that because when you don't allow periods of rest, you rob yourself of the ability to enjoy the work that you do. So you're constantly pouring, pouring, pouring. You can be blessing everybody around you and internally feel empty because you are not allowing yourself to enjoy the work that's being done and to receive back from that. It's great to be a giver, but to be able to continue to give, you have to get to a point where you are also a receiver. And rest is where we get that receiving.
Laura Dugger: Seems like a natural balance. We've discussed a few spiritual topics. So what do you think the enemy wants for us as it relates to rest and burnout?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: I think that's one of his biggest ways of keeping people bound. In Isaiah chapter 30, I think it's 12 through about 15, that's one of the scriptures where I really got an eye-opening as well, because it talks about when the Israelites were coming out of slavery and going into the promise. [00:23:50] But God tells them, in returning in rest shall you be saved? In quietness and trust shall you proceed. It said, "But you were afraid and unwilling."
And when I read that, it really dawned on me because I thought, you know, You're right, God, I am unwilling to rest because I'm afraid that if I rest, then everything's going to fall apart. That quietness and trust... I had no trust. I trusted in my own ability to get it done, not in God's ability to obtain it and sustain it while I rested. And I think that's the thing. When we look at rest, we don't look at it as how it is identified with our relationship with God, but how well you rest as a level of how well you trust God with what you have.
Laura Dugger: Never thought of it that way. I really like that.
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So what do you think God wants for us?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: I think He wants us to return to His original plan. I love that, you know, in the Ten Commandments, we have all these thou shalt not, thou shalt not, thou shalt not. And only one of them says to remember something. Why does it say that? Because He knew we would forget.
I think His desire for us is to do just that — to remember why we need rest and to remember how important he even thought it was that He emulated it to us in the very beginning. So that our very first full day on the earth was one where He was showing us the way.
Laura Dugger: That is such a gift from him. In your book, you mentioned the gifts of rest. So what do you mean by that?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes, the gifts of rest are 12 different things that to me, they come from rest. So when you're resting well, you experience these without even trying. So that's the gift part of them. [00:26:14]
And just a couple of them. One of them is boundaries. You know, we talked about those personal boundaries. Well, I think it's important to realize that we have to have them. Otherwise, we get in these situations and these relationships where we start getting resentful because we feel like people aren't being respectful of our needs. But they don't even know what we need if we don't have any boundaries up to let them know kind of the limitations of what we find acceptable.
Another one of the gifts is a gift of reflection. Just being able to see things from a different perspective. And sometimes you can't get that until you stop for a moment and really take some time to look at the situation kind of from the 30,000 feet perspective and not just from where you're standing at right now.
Laura Dugger: Those are helpful. Your book also has a lot of teaching stories in it. Do you have a favorite?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Yes. My favorite teaching story, I would say, is the very first one in Chapter Three where I'm discussing a businesswoman who is basically coming home from work. [00:27:21] But in her travel home, she is using that time really as her opportunity to unwind. Her life is packed. So the only time she's kind of allowing some mental rest is when she's driving home in traffic.
And as you can imagine, that is not the ideal time to let your mind wander. But people do it all the time. You know, that's the time they kind of zone out a little bit. Well, in her situation, she zoned out and didn't see the car breaking in front of her and had a wreck.
I met her in the ICU after liver lacerations and intubation and all that had to go on to get her back stabilized. The part of the story that really stuck with me, because she was with us for a while, she had quite a recovery, was at the end of her recovery period... We were getting everything ready and kind of saying our goodbyes. I recall her just being so emotional and so tearful. And I'm like, "You get to leave." In my head, I'm thinking, "This is great. You're alive, you're healthy, you get to leave." [00:28:25]
And she was like, "I don't want to be who I was before I came in here." That time of just being forced to rest to kind of get her mind cleared out. She had done some deep soul-searching. God had really just met her during this time. She recognized the benefit of that set-apart time. But she had to be forced into it almost through this accident.
And just listening to her express that I thought, "God, I don't want anyone else to have to be forced, so to speak, into rest. I want them to enter into the rest."
Laura Dugger: I think that empowers all of us that we have a choice to enter into that rest. And if a listener is really tracking with you, Dr. Saundra, where can they dive deeper into this topic online or connect with you?
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: One of the main ways I would recommend them to really start looking at this topic would be through my free rest assessment at restquiz.com. [00:29:29] It basically allows them to answer a series of questions that will help them to see which of the seven types of rest they are most efficient in. So they're not just kind of grasping at thin air trying to determine, well, which one do I need or do I need all seven? Usually, you don't need all seven to really dive into. You're likely already getting most of them. You just didn't know what they were or how determined.
But there's normally one or two that you're deficient in. So being able to identify those specific ones where you need more rest can help direct you as you're being more intentional.
Laura Dugger: That is great. We will link to that in our show notes and also put your website in our "Resources" tab on our website. I have one final question for you today because our listeners know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so we'd love to hear yours. Dr. Saundra, what is your savvy sauce? [00:30:29]
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: My savvy sauce is I nightly dump my mind junk. I'm one who likes to hold on to things and process information and kind of go through all of that. So every night I dumped all the mind junk. I have a piece of paper where I jot down whatever that is so that I can go to sleep with a clear head.
And then if it's something that needs to be processed, I still have it in front of me so I can process it at a more appropriate time when I'm not trying to sleep.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's a great idea. Dr. Saundra, you are so knowledgeable and I feel like you've just given us so many practical tips that we can grab on to. I really appreciate you being our guest today.
Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Oh, thanks so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:31:36]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:32:38]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:33:37]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 28, 2019
Monday Oct 28, 2019
*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears
80. Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
**Transcription Below**
Zephaniah 3:17 NIV “The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.”
Vickie L. George, M.Ed., M.S., LMFT, LPC, CST is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor, Certified Sex Therapist, and is an AAMFT Approved Supervisor, an Approved Clinical Supervisor (ACS) by CCE of the NBCC, and a Certified Professional Counselor Supervisor (CPCS) by the State of Georgia. She has a Master’s degree in counseling from Georgia State University, a Master’s degree in Christian Psychological Integration with a specialization in Sex Therapy from Richmont Graduate University (formerly the Psychological Studies Institute), and also has completed post-graduate work in marriage and family therapy training at the University of Georgia and training in supervision.
Vickie has been counseling, teaching and consulting with several organizations since opening her practice in 1984. During her 30 plus years, she has gained extensive experience as she has helped clients work through difficult issues such as couple problems, sexual problems, addiction, abuse, women's issues, and examining spiritual issues.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Co-Dependent No More by Melody Beattie
The New Codependency by Melody Beattie
It Will Never Happen to Me by Claudia Black
Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Glenn
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
For nearly three decades, award-winning speaker and author Sam Glenn has been captivating audiences of every size from every industry with his inspirational, art-based talks that focus on recharging attitudes for success. To learn more about Sam's speeches, books, and art, visit samglenn.com.
We have Vickie George back as our returning guest. Last time we had the opportunity to chat, we discussed gender differences and conflict in relationships. And that's an episode you don't want to miss. And now we're back together to discuss hormones, codependent relationships, and how to understand our spouse's different manifestations of sexual desire in marriage. [00:01:19]
Here's our chat.
Welcome back today, Vickie.
Vickie George: Oh, it's good to be back.
Laura Dugger: Do you mind just giving us a glimpse into who you are?
Vickie George: Well, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor, and a certified sex therapist. I'm also an approved supervisor. So a great deal of my life and practice is to the passion of all three of those.
I have about 30% of my practice where I am supervising therapists both in training in grad school, post-grad, and also therapists who may be also licensed. Mentoring the next generation of therapists is extremely important to me and a passion of mine. I want to make sure that I do that well and that the next generation is able to pass on the important things that make marriage and family and relationship therapy so important in a world that feels very disconnected at times or not relational. [00:02:29] The connecting is more at each other rather than with each other.
Laura Dugger: So good. For anybody who isn't aware of this, you were my supervisor in graduate school and taught me so much. And you continue to just be available, willing to answer questions. So I really appreciate getting to connect with you again today.
Vickie George: Yeah. It's a delight to have you back in my office. Well, and I work a lot, not only with couples, but I work a lot with trauma and also addiction. So all of those are loves of mine in the field. It is complex and that is the type of thing that I like working with. Because the more complex it is, the more the joy as they unpack and get healing in the many complex areas where there may be wounding or deprivation, etc.
Laura Dugger: Let's just dive right in. We often hear hormones have a big effect on us, but can you explain further how they specifically affect our mood, sleep, and sex life? [00:03:38]
Vickie George: They affect all of it. That's the bottom line. And therein lies why as you age or menopause or andropause for men, as that lessens then mood can get more swinging-like, sleep problems because hormones bathe the brain and then therefore the body in what it needs for a sense of calm or arousal. It affects how well we think.
That's why, you know, people will laugh about menopause brain because literally it's not being bathed as much so memory will get iffy at times. It affects everything from how you are able to have muscle mass, those are just a few things. Some of that you've probably heard on television, you know, promoting certain things that are helpful. Part of that, yes, can be done through medicine. [00:04:45]
But it's really important not only to know how they're needed in the body, but also that they need to be in the correct ratio in the body so that when you're younger, if things are not going well or whatever, it may be a hormone problem in men and women. So going and having a complete physical to see what hormone levels are and are you in the average range and are the ratio of all three of the main hormones that all men and women have which is estrogen, testosterone, and progesterone. They have to be in the correct ratio. So an over or an under of any of those will affect the person as well in a negative way.
Laura Dugger: You mentioned that medication may help with some of that, but is it possible in any other way for us to help harness our hormones or help that ratio be in the correct relationship? [00:05:47]
Vickie George: Well, first of all, everything is interrelated and holistic. Everything from neurotransmitters that are in the body, especially that you hear about in the brain, but also neurotransmitters like serotonin is in the digestive area. And they all interconnect with each other.
For instance, serotonin is connected with estrogen and is almost a synthesis. That's why sometimes when women who have hormonal issues may go on something like an SSRI, which is an antidepressant, a low dosage of that will affect the serotonin level as well as the estrogen so that they feel better.
Of course, what are things that we know that help? Getting enough sleep, eating healthy, watching sugar intake, exercise. One of the things that we have said for a very long time is 45 minutes of intense aerobic activity four times a week is equal to 20 milligrams of generic Prozac. [00:06:53]
Of what it does in changing the structure of the brain and helping promote Serotonin in the brain, which of course is connected with estrogen indirectly. And there are things that you can take over the counter that can be helpful. But you want to talk with your healthcare provider about that especially if like naturopathic type of things that some people are okay with other people or not. It's a personal choice. Certain things... GABA, that helps, 5-HTP are things that help with calming, and all of those together.
Laura Dugger: And we're throwing out a lot of terms here. Maybe we should back it up and we'll unpack a few of these hormones and then even serotonin. How would a listener know what serotonin does for them or how they would have a measure of if it might be off in their body?
Vickie George: Serotonin is part of what gives you a sense of calm and well-being. [00:07:56] That is how serotonin is used mostly in the body. I just saw some recent statistics that 52% of women at some point or another will have a shortage of serotonin.
One of the things that we know is that women suffer more with depression. So seeing your doctor, seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist, those are avenues where you can talk to the experts about that. But if you are feeling sugar cravings, anxiety, depression, problems with sleep, those are some of the telltale signs that can be that serotonin may be off.
Laura Dugger: That is really helpful. Can you do the same thing with the three main hormones? Just a little glimpse of what they do and how we know if they're out of whack. [00:08:56]
Vickie George: Lack of estrogen in women, they really don't have any type of sexual desire very often. If they are estrogen dominant, which means that they don't have enough testosterone or progesterone, they can be very agitated, irritability, or whatever. So it's once again that too much or too little of anything.
The same way with testosterone in men, if there is kind of a lethargy, or it will come out in lack of desire sometimes for sex, that can be a testosterone issue. Because anytime something is off, the first thing that you want to do is go and have a full panel done, having a complete physical check, and have a complete physical with all the blood work and hormones tested, thyroid tested, etc., those types of things to see. I mean some people can feel like they're depressed and they may just be having a problem with B12 which gives you energy or that you may not be metabolizing it. [00:10:09]
So, not to get too complex, the bottom line is if you're not sure, visiting your doctor and having a complete physical where they do a lot of blood work for those types of things and see what the doctor says. One of the things that has come into my office is that people will have their tests done for hormones or thyroid and the doctor will say that they are in the normal range but it's in the low normal range. And low normal for lots of people is actually low.
So having hormones or thyroid, etc. that is in the mid-range is really what's helpful for overall health, mentally, emotionally, physically, sexually, etc.
Laura Dugger: And progesterone is one that we don't hear about as much. So is there anything that would alert us if ours is off? [00:11:08]
Vickie George: It's a misunderstood hormone. It's considered, quote-unquote, the prickly hormone in one sense that you can be irritable or agitated with it, but it also has its benefit in balancing out the others. So once again, if there's too much of it, the prickly or whatever, but where there is a deficit of it, then you will run into some health issues. So it's needed to balance the body out.
A lot of times progesterone therapy will be used to balance these out or even in menopause. That's why talking to your health care professional, somebody that you believe really knows what they're talking about... You know, sometimes you just have to find who works best for you.
Laura Dugger: Another obstacle that many women face is negative body image. How does that affect their level of enjoyment and freedom in the bedroom?
Vickie George: It affects it a great deal. [00:12:08] You're going to have to come to having an acceptance about your body. Now, that's easier said than done, given the nature of our society, how skinny and everything is championed, how you are only as good as you look so often is purported in Hollywood and everywhere else. So it is tough for lots of women to accept that, but it needs to be a work in progress.
The other thing is, are you being not okay with your body because of you? What messages did you get? Where did this come from? Are you being perfectionistic? Because 100% of all women have some quote-unquote body issues, something on their body that they don't like. [00:13:09]
The other thing is when you ask men, they like a woman who takes care of themselves. That does not mean they have to be a size 2. They just like a woman who works at trying to take care of herself physically. She does not have to look like something off of television.
The other thing that's a total shocker for most women is that most men do not notice 10 additional pounds. They do not. And women will grieve themselves to death sometime over the 10 pounds that they wish they could lose. Unfortunately, then the number of times that I have had women who have come in over the years and as they age regretted the amount of energy that they spent on worrying about 10 pounds when nobody cared.
I heard a colleague talk about the 15-40-60 rule. [00:14:11] Which, of course, he made up. But at 15, you're all worried about how you look and what people think about you and you think they're talking about you and wondering what they're saying, etc. At 40, you don't care what people are thinking about you as much anymore, and at 60 you realize they're really not talking about you at all and could care less. That you have become a legend in your own mind when you worry about those sorts of things.
So it is taking up space in your head without paying rent because it's certainly not taking up that much space in anyone else's head.
Laura Dugger: I hope that is so freeing for someone to hear today. And if they need some action steps, if they are wrestling with this, it's not somebody else putting that negative image on them, they struggle with it internally, what encouragement would you share with them today?
Vickie George: How comfortable do you feel in your own skin of just you as a person? [00:15:11] Because that's the bottom line. Because plenty of women who will look like models but then feel horrible about themselves and beat themselves up and just self-loathing and so on and so forth, and then others who by Hollywood standards would be 10 to 20 pounds overweight are fine with themselves, enjoy themselves, enjoy a male company, enjoy if they're married, their spouse, etc. and feel very confident.
So it's much more about what's inside and how you think that needs changing than necessarily so much on what is the outside.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Glenn is an award-winning inspirational speaker, gifted performance artist, and author of over 30 incredible books on personal and professional development. Sam Glenn has been honored by being named Speaker of the Year on several occasions by meeting and event organizations, and he won two national awards for his training videos. [00:16:20]
Hundreds of organizations use Sam's videos weekly to kick off their staff meetings and cultivate positivity in their workplace. Sam's experience and longevity in the speaking industry has made him an expert at customizing an unforgettable speech to highlight the positive unforgettables that are meaningful and specific to your organization and your people.
While the themes may be consistent, no two speeches Sam gives are identical. And that is why groups consistently bring him back. Because not only are they confident that they will get the most meaningful message for their group, but also their employees and attendees demand it.
For more information, visit samglenn.com. Sam and his wife Danielle are supporters of The Savvy Sauce, so they have also generously offered a free eBook version of one of Sam's most popular books. You can access it by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on our "resources" tab. I hope that you visit his website today at samglenn.com. Again, that's samglenn.com. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:17:29]
Laura Dugger: How do you recommend renewing your mind in a way that will start to lead into more positive body image?
Vickie George: For a woman, and I think this applies to men as well, but you need to know who you are and whose you are. If you are a person of faith, then do you really believe, do you really feel that God loves you no matter what and created you exactly as you are and said that you are good? Because that is exactly what He did. He talks about how he loves us no matter what. God is an inside-out God. He talks about our heart. That is what He is interested in.
Once again, when our heart is right and we feel good internally, it then becomes outward in our countenance. [00:18:31] And that's what people are attracted to: people who smile, who laugh, who feel good about themselves. And when you know that you were loved by the God of the universe who created you and gave you your personality and your body and said that it was good, then it is good indeed.
Laura Dugger: I love that. And if somebody has never read the Bible before, maybe a great place to start, in the middle of your Bible, Psalm chapter 139. Just reading through that to see that God is the one who created you and indeed does love you right where you're at.
Vickie George: Another one of my favorites that is a little tiny book in the Old Testament, the book of Zephaniah 3:17. It's really great to see how God looks at you. Because it talks about He loves you and He rejoices over you and wants to protect you, etc. [00:19:36]
Rejoicing in that context, in the Hebrew, meant to dance around wildly. So if you think of the God of the universe dancing around wildly about you, that's staggering. That's game-changer if you can really take that in.
Laura Dugger: And that applies to every single one of us listening right now.
Vickie George: That's exactly right. He does not rejoice anymore over the person who looks like a model than the person who may be 40 pounds overweight. He still loves, accepts, and rejoices over. And He hung on the cross for them the exact same amount of time because it's all level there.
Laura Dugger: And that gives everyone a place to begin today starting to renew their mind for body image. We've touched on other things related to sex therapy. [00:20:37] So what other general topics do you see that come into your office that we may not think of related to sex therapy?
Vickie George: Desire issues. A lot of couples will come in and say they're having trouble with desire. and that's a complex issue. They may have trouble with arousal. We see unconsummated marriages and things that people don't really talk about.
Sometimes if they are having fertility issues, if they are having issues with compulsivity, that unwanted compulsivity with masturbation or if they are struggling with same-sex attraction that's unwanted same-sex attraction. Things related to even birth control that can cause issues. Those are just a few of things.
Understanding the differences in men and women in sex is very different. and so they can get at cross-purposes not knowing, once again, the differences between males and females. [00:21:43] Like, for instance, let's just take desire. Assertive desire in men is usually more direct, that they will directly approach their partner in asking for sex. Women, not necessarily. They usually will be a little more alluring and indirect with the way and use their feminine ways to show desire.
Another thing that's different is women are generally... 20% of them are the higher desire, whereas men are 80%. Well, that's a difference just right there between desires. And so it doesn't necessarily mean that one has high desire and the other has no desire. It may be just differences in higher and lower desire. And how do you come to grips with that as a couple and how do you communicate about it?
That's another thing that couples will... because it's tough to talk about sex. People may feel ashamed about it or embarrassed or criticized or not good enough. [00:22:49] I mean, because it's such a vulnerable area for men and women that they can literally make assumptions and they be wrong assumptions and it take on a life of its own.
Laura Dugger: When you talk about assumptions, what are some differences that couples listening today maybe have never heard related to sex therapy?
Vickie George: One of them is that men will be greatly affected in a negative way in their sense of self and masculinity if they do not feel that their wife desires them. So if she does not show desire, especially sexually... and it doesn't mean that she has to initiate all the time, but that she is into it, etc. If men do not feel that, then it affects their sense of self and hurts them.
Of course, for males, they don't talk a lot about her, especially around this area. They will either get angry or they will shut down. [00:23:52] But not feeling desired by their wife is very wounding and how it affects their sense of being a man and feeling like a man.
Another thing, too, is that we have seen in research over the last 10 years is the actual issue of desire in women. One of the things that we are learning is, of course, what Hollywood says is total trash and not really true, that the only type of desire is the type that's taught in Hollywood and that everybody is like that all the time and everybody looks like that and it's Rockets' Red Glare every time. Because it's not. That's not real life.
Real life is a connection and that it's good, sometimes it's great, and then other times it was satisfying but is not Rockets' Red Glare. And sometimes it doesn't look that beautiful and out you're on my arm. You know, that sort of thing is a normal part of real-life sexuality, but that it can still be a connecting and fun time with a couple. [00:24:59]
With women, their desire so often does not come before sex. It comes actually during sex. So, whereas they may be receptive in desire to, okay, sure honey but they aren't really feeling it or into it in the beginning. If men understand she may not have all of that desire at all like I would like beforehand but she's willing, that counts as desire, gentlemen, just so you know.
And then in the middle of it it's like, wow, she... you know, you're getting into it or she's getting into it and enjoying it and oh, wow, that was a really good idea. I'm so glad we did that. That is desire coming in the middle of the sexual experience. And that is much more female.
Laura Dugger: That's such a good clarification. A male, stereotypically, will feel desire and then initiate and there will be stimulation and the arousal is already there. For a female, the desire looks very different because the stimulation may be there before the arousal starts to ramp up. [00:26:07]
Vickie George: That is correct.
Laura Dugger: Okay. Well, in moving on, I remember from our supervision days that you taught me a lot about codependent relationships. If listeners aren't familiar with that term, how would you define codependency? and then maybe share what are some signs if you are in a codependent relationship.
Vickie George: Codependency is a large term that has been thrown around and not a lot of clarity on it. Melody Beatty in her book, Codependent No More gave a very good definition of codependency. Also, Pia Mellody is another person who has written a lot on it. This goes back to 80s. These are some really classic writings that started out in clarifying it. Another one is Claudia Black. So any three of those authors, if you look them up, will have some good books and definitions on codependency. [00:27:06]
It is basically... I'm going to go at it from more of a spiritual perspective or holistic perspective. With a codependent, what they are doing is that they are trying to utilize a person or people to fill up a hole that they have inside.
So it's like they have an H-O-L-E inside that they are utilizing doing for people or expecting from people to fill that up to make them W-H-O-L-E. So they will either do things for people and it's got a motive to it. It's not freely given. It's "I'm going to do this for you so I get something from you." It's a giving to get. And it can be very subtle and it can look very nice and very helpful, but there's an agenda. [00:28:07] And if that agenda is then not met, they are hugely disappointed, they can get angry, depressed, all sorts of things.
The difference between someone who is acting in a way codependently... because they can look like and do for others and be very helpful and serving and all that sort of stuff, but it has agenda to it. Someone who truly wants to help or serve others already feels W-H-O-L-E inside. So the giving or doing for others is outpouring from that wholeness and is given with that spirit to it, so that there's no expectation back. There's no agenda. Codependency is the other. It's a giving to get to fill up the H-O-L-E, servanthood is feeling W-H-O-L-E, giving freely.
Laura Dugger: So how do people move in that direction? [00:29:08]
Vickie George: Well, what needs to happen is how are you internally? How are you feeling about you? What do you need to make you feel W-H-O-L-E? That is healthy, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, socially, vocationally. Those are the things. What is it that uniquely would make you W-H-O-L-E? Looking for things that define what is good health, so to speak, in all of those arenas, that's what makes a W-H-O-L-E person.
Laura Dugger: Here are a few more reviews people have left on iTunes. B.A. Zim says, "Each episode is full of practical tips and encouragement. This podcast is well worth your time." Thank you, B.A. Zim. We are so honored that you took the time to share those words. And not only did you encourage us, but you are also very key in iTunes promoting our podcast because of your five-star rating and review. Thanks so much. [00:30:16]
To break it down to a practical level so that listers can apply some of this today, what are some ways they can become more W-H-O-L-E? Let's hit on emotionally, spiritually, and physically.
Vickie George: Well, let's take the more simple one. Physically, exercise, eating right, you know, the things you've heard, watching sugar intake, alcohol intake, you know, having a complete physical to make sure that is there anything going on in your body that needs attention so that you can operate more whole physically.
Emotionally, that is once again, do you know? What is going on with you? Do you know who you are? Do you know what your emotions are? Are you good at identifying them? Do you know how to deal with them effectively? Do you know how to express them effectively? Do you have good EQ, emotional quotient, okay?
We know from the business world even that EQ is way more successful in the world in general than IQ per se. And if you don't, then that's where counseling can be helpful, reading, etc. [00:31:29] Being and talking to people or hanging out with people that you respect that do know how to deal with their emotions better. Watch them, observe, etc.
It doesn't mean that everybody has to end up in a counseling room. But we have the internet for heaven's sake. We can look everything up in the world.
Laura Dugger: Certainly. I love that you're talking about EQ because that is a learned skill. So there's hope to grow in that.
Vickie George: That's exactly right. And everybody learns and develops EQ. Okay? It's not just an automatic given thing. Everybody learns it. It's easier for women that they're socialized from an earlier age very often to have EQ and that it may seem like it is higher because they've been socialized from an earlier age. So often men have not been, so they're not emotional clods because men are emotional beings as well. It just looks different. It comes out differently. [00:32:29]
They need to grow so that they are emotionally healthy. And it doesn't mean that they have to look like a woman. Growing in your own emotional health does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, giving up your man card.
Laura Dugger: What does it look like for a man to grow in that?
Vickie George: To be able to say the things that he likes or he doesn't like. What makes him feel good about something? What are the things that you enjoy? What are the things that make you angry? Or getting to know the difference between, instead of everything being... making an angry response.
What is underneath anger so often? For most people, and especially for males, anger can be a lot of the time a secondary emotion so that they may be feeling distressed, disappointed, depressed, hurt, disillusioned. [00:33:29] Those can be just a few of things that then get translated into anger automatically for men. It's like a reflex. So knowing what's underneath that and being able to identify it in yourself is helpful for men.
Laura Dugger: That's good. You mentioned the internet earlier. If you even Google "feeling wheel" you can see what the underlying emotion is for one that presents itself like anger that you're just talking about.
Vickie George: One of the things that I do with everybody that comes into my office is I have them go on the internet and I have them search for "feelings with faces" or "emotions with faces". And a ton of them come up. You know, a picture is worth a thousand words.
So, faces that show differing emotions. And there are lots of different… So I have them go and do that and then print off five different ones because not all of them have all the same emotions. And I say, take those and I want you to put them on the refrigerator so that you can look at them at any time or that they're readily available. [00:34:39] If you're not knowing what's going on or you need to have some sort of discussion, and you know it could kind of get heated, that that is right there, that you can look at those and be able to say, hmm, I am feeling agitated, frustrated, a little bit sad, and misunderstood. That helps to clarify and helps then increasing EQ.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Something that we can take and go do right away today.
Vickie George: How you grow in spiritual health is a lot like what you do with physical health. In that you would exercise, etc., and have disciplines in how you eat. The spiritual disciplines, how much time are you sitting and in essence getting to know God, reading the Bible, reading books that authors have written about spiritual things.
Prayer. And it doesn't matter if you don't know how to pray because the Bible talks about how to pray, there are books on how to pray. And the other thing is God listens to you and hears you anyway. You don't have to make it pretty. [00:35:42]
Being in community with other people who their spiritual life is important to them. Bible studies, etc., worship. Those are some of the things that help you know and develop your spiritual muscle just like you would your physical muscle and just like we were talking about. Like the feelings, faces helps you develop your EQ muscle.
Laura Dugger: I love it. It's so good. As we're winding down today, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or insight. And as our final question today, Vickie, what is your savvy sauce?
Vickie George: The word that comes to mind is "intentional". Everything that I've talked about, you have to be intentional about. It is not going to just happen. If you are going to develop anything, you're going to have to be intentional about it. If you even wanted to learn how to ride a bike, you have to be intentional about learning how do I do this and balancing or pedaling or anything along that line. [00:36:52]
What we do has to be intentional. It does not come naturally. It does not just flow into us. So the healthiest people, the happiest people, the people who are the most satisfied in their life and in their relationships are intentional about what they do in making that happen.
Laura Dugger: What's one step somebody could take today to be intentional to grow in one of these areas you've talked about?
Vickie George: Well, since I am a therapist and I'm all about relationships, be intentional with your spouse or partner or boyfriend or children or whoever it is that you are wanting to connect with. That you be intentional in trying to connect with them in communicating something really simple. Like, what you like about them, what you appreciate about them. That is an automatic connecting point. [00:37:55] People feel valued, cared about, important, etc., when you talk about what you like about them.
And see, even for children, the concept of being loved does not make as much sense to them as being liked. That's why when you tell your child, I love you, it's so big or ambiguous, but I really like you or I like this about you, children resonate with that because that's what you learn even in school. Does she like me or not? Will you be my best friend? You know, that kind of thing is about being liked. It has a whole different component to it that feels connecting in a way that kind of is almost salve to the soul.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. And for anyone listening who is local to Atlanta, you are so lucky to have Vickie around the corner. We're going to link to her website in our show notes today. [00:38:57] And if you would like to reach out to her, she is currently receiving new clients and would love to hear from you. Today has been such a gift. Thank you so much for sharing your savvy ways with us.
Vickie George: You are more than welcome.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:40:00] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:41:00]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:42:01]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 21, 2019
Monday Oct 21, 2019
79. Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans
**Transcription Below**
2 Timothy 1:7 (KJV) “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
Ecclesiastes 4:12 “ Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.”
Gary and Marla Ringger have been involved in orphan care since 2003 both professionally and personally. Married 42 years, they have been blessed with 3 daughters and 15 grandchildren, nine by adoption. Gary serves as president of Lifesong for Orphans and Marla works alongside him advocating for orphans and vulnerable children around the world.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Radical Business by Gary Ringger
The Mystery of God’s Will by Charles R. Swindoll
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription Below**
[00:00:00] <Music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:19] <Music>
Laura Dugger: TreStique's mission is to provide a customizable and simple makeup solution for your lifestyle. To do that, they offer high-performance products and travel-friendly, personalized routines that save time and empower you to accomplish your goals and do the things that you love. Visit them today at Trestique.com and use the code savvy15 for $15 off your first order of $50 or more.
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Gary & Marla Ringger are my guests today. They are very special to me for many reasons. But first, because we're related. So our families have grown up near each other and I have witnessed them live a life faithful to God and each other. They're going to share their story today about their journey from business to ministry, and they'll tell how they involved their family in this process along the way.
Gary has recently authored a book titled Radical Business: From Ownership to Stewardship, which I highly recommend. You're going to hear a few takeaways from that book and learn more about their ministry Lifesong for Orphans. Here's our chat.
[00:01:43] Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Gary and Marla.
Marla Ringger: Thanks. It's great to be here, Laura.
Gary Ringger: It's good to be here.
Laura Dugger: So glad to have you join us. Will you just start us off today by giving more context about yourselves and your family?
Marla Ringger: Gary and I have been married for 42 years. We have three daughters and 15 grandchildren. We met through our church youth group, though, all those many years ago. He became a Christian at age 18. I did at 17, and then we just ran in the same circles. And God just knew that I needed Gary and I think he needed me as well.
Gary Ringger: I would also add to that that 9 of our 15 grandkids are adopted. Marla and I never adopted, but as we'll talk about later, we started an adoption ministry and our kids have really taken that up. So it's been a journey. We hadn't expected to have 15 grandkids, 9 of them being adopted.
Marla Ringger: And actually we're a multicultural family because we have one grandson from Guatemala, we have two grandchildren from China, three grandchildren adopted through foster care, a little boy named Friday from Uganda, and then our daughter, Leslie has two teenagers living with her from Zambia that are part of our family. So they are part of that mix.
Laura Dugger: [00:03:11] That's incredible. And your story has so many unexpected twists and turns. We're going to hear more about that today. Will you just give us some background on your journey into Radical Business?
Gary Ringger: Yeah. So I started out as a college kid. And just getting out of college, I should say, I was a scared kid, not knowing what to do. I went to work for Dad. He had this small family feed business. I didn't know what else to do, so I went to work for Dad.
But early on in that, I learned that I really liked business. So by the time I was in my early 30s, I decided that we had good success in the feed business, I want to start a second business. I had gone to Kraft Plant in Champaign, Illinois, and I saw the different rooms of different processes, and I was really impressed by the opportunity to be in the food business.
So I started looking around to start another business. Our feed company at that point was called Ringger Feeds. So I started the second business called The Ringger Foods. And I told Marla that this is going to be really big. We're going to get rich and I'm going to retire at 40. That was what I was thinking.
But as we started that business, again, Ringger Feeds had had some success and I was pretty self-confident. But now starting Ringger Foods, pretty much immediately from the beginning, we were losing money. And I was realizing I was making people food instead of pig food, and I was realizing I didn't know how to do that and I started freaking out, if you will, about food safety.
So just started eating at me. And night after night, about one, two in the morning, I would wake up in a cold sweat, heart beating in my head, and I would lay there thinking all kinds of dark thoughts like, "God forbid, we're going to kill somebody." And then because I wasn't sleeping—and this lasted for 3 to 5 months—I got to the point where I was sleep deprived and then depression and desperation hit.
Marla Ringger: We had three little girls at the time. I know Gary was struggling at times but for me, it wasn't this real awareness of what he was going through, because I think he kept it in a lot. But I do remember one night, especially when he woke up and he was just in a cold sweat and he just said, "Marla, you just got to pray for me." So we got down on our knees and I prayed for him.
So I knew he was really going through something but I was so preoccupied with the girls at the time that it wasn't an ongoing thing for me, but it definitely was bigger to him.
Laura Dugger: [00:05:56] And I think a lot of couples can relate to that. Because at this point, how old were your girls?
Marla Ringger: Oh, they were probably six, four, and two.
Laura Dugger: So you were very hands-on at that point.
Marla Ringger: Yes.
Laura Dugger: And Gary, you kind of internalize some of this more-
Gary Ringger: Yeah, I internalized it. And it really taught me even for wives to know their husband if they're being stressed out. I was sleep-deprived. So it taught me how fine that line is between doing well and being a mess. I mean, I was never close to committing suicide because of my fear of God, but I actually had thoughts like that. I cried a lot. I was just a mess.
But it was really a great experience in general because God was breaking of me that goal to get rich and retire at 40. So ultimately, as I would be crying out in desperation and praying to God at night, I felt my mind shift. I wanted to quit, but I didn't feel peace about that. I wanted to quit Ringger Foods, Ringger Feeds was doing great, so let's just quit Ringger Foods. But I didn't feel peace about
And ultimately, what I felt God directing is to have a different paradigm about business. And that led to just a handwritten contract. It was a contract that basically said, God, if this business ever succeeds, and at that point, it was a failure, God, if this business ever succeeds and we sell it, we'll pay ourselves back what we invested with 8% interest, anything over and above that will be used for ministry purposes. And that contract was life-changing. That changed my whole paradigm on business, and if you will, lead me into Radical Business.
Laura Dugger: [00:07:39] I love those stories. And I think both of you are great storytellers. I want listeners to hear how did God meet you personally, through the Reader's Digest article?
Gary Ringger: I'm gonna preface that with saying, right after the contract-
Marla Ringger: You should tell to that you wrote this contract down on a notebook paper, like a spiral notebook sheet of paper that he pulled out, ripped out, and he just signed exactly what he had said earlier, and he had a space for his dad to sign who was half owner, and that he signed. That was as simple as it was.
Gary Ringger: But what happened then, my fear... that now I'm in a more of a tangible partnership with God. So when you're in depression, you don't get into it right away, you don't get out of it right away. So I'm still a mess and still have a business, I don't know what I'm doing, but every morning I got up and I got into this pattern. We're fortunate in that we have a hot tub right outside our bedroom, and I get into the hot tub and I start thinking through the Lord's Prayer.
And when I would get to "give us today our daily bread", I would start asking God, what do I do about this? What do I do about that? I had never really prayed that much about business before, and I think that was because my motives were wrong. You know, how do you say, God help me with this business so I can get rich and retire? But now I'm struggling. I'm in this tangible partnership with Him.
[00:09:07] So I started asking Him and started hearing Him in ways more direct ways than I ever had before. And that leads to your question on Reader's Digest. At one point later in the journey, Ringger Foods was starting to become successful. We were starting to do well and Nestlé had asked us to cook some cookies for them.
So we were cooking products for them and we were running through some issues. One of the great things about those big companies, they really guide us. They really helped us know what we were doing and they had their technical people. And they were setting up some technical people to help us do this well.
Well, roughly 5 minutes before three technical people from Nestlé walked in our door, I get a call from our quality assurance young lady, and she was crying. They had just tested the product that we were making for Nestlé and it had the potential of having listeria, which is a bacteria that can be fatal. And she was crying. She said, "We may have listeria in this product." And then they walked in.
So I'm, by nature, transparent and so I was shaken and I was crying. But I just shared with them what happened. They were great. They'd been there, seen it all before. And they explained to me that what you have is the first test and you now need to take a second test to confirm it. So we didn't know we really had a problem or not.
So we said, okay, we'll test it. And they were going to guide us through the issue. I went home and told Marla, "I think this is the end of Ringger Foods." I just felt that way. And she was kind of used to me up and down. And she said, "Nah." She said, "You just go relax, go and get relax." So I did.
And what was really interesting, on the Reader's Digest the day before, I had been reading a story in the Reader's Digest, which is not exactly a spiritual book, but it was good stories. And this particular story was written from a secular view, but they were talking about how prayer changes things. The day before I had started it, they were talking about people being prayed for in hospitals and stuff like that.
Laura, the couple sentences after I started reading again, it had this basically sentence and they said, "Even more astounding than this is they have found that prayer can change bacteria results in laboratories." I was like, wow. Because here I am just thinking everything is falling apart because we're waiting on this, we're going to wait on this bacteria result from a laboratory. And I've never read anything like that before or after.
Laura Dugger: [00:12:07] Yeah, God is so personal.
Gary Ringger: So I called up some friends and said, "We're supposed to pray." And that's what happened. A couple of days later, it came back fine. So I don't know for sure how He worked that, but I do know He talked to me very personally there. I love, like you said, it's a personal touch. Yes.
Laura Dugger: [00:12:29] Absolutely. It's so touching to hear those stories. There was two things going on at the same time. You're raising your family, you're doing all of this with business. Marla, what was your day-to-day looking like at this point?
Marla Ringger: I was just a busy mom. I wasn't a homeschooler, so, you know, by the time they went into school, I had free days that I... I was a stay-at-home mom. And so Gary was... he had this career and this was my career. I just trusted him a lot with business decisions. I think that's also part of our... He would tell me about things and I would listen but I left the decisions on business up to him because he pretty much left the running of the household up to me.
Gary Ringger: She was always very supportive.
Marla Ringger: I was supportive, yeah. I rarely questioned... once in a while, but rarely.
Gary Ringger: And if I was going up and down, which I have a tendency to do, she was more the rock, if you will. Things didn't stress her up like they did me.
Marla Ringger: But then I also wasn't living that stress like he was.
Laura Dugger: [00:13:41] But it sounds like prayer was really important to both of you, that that's something maybe that you united you through all of it.
Marla Ringger: Definitely. And I noticed a big difference in him and with his relationship with the Lord because of the struggle and actually prompted me to... I mean, we both love our quiet time. We both love our mornings where we just are quiet with the Lord on our own. It's always been a real... that part's been a real joy.
Gary Ringger: Yeah. And I would say prior to the contract, prayer was a discipline. I mean, I did it and I was a believer. But after the contract and I started going through that and experiencing God in more tangible ways, it became my favorite part of the day. And it was more of a relaxed prayer sitting in the hot tub, sometimes falling asleep. Before it was more like on my knees, 5 minutes. And if my mind wanders, slap my hand, I can't do that.
Now, it's a 45-minute, two-hour time with the Lord, with my best friend every morning. It just became my favorite part of the day and still is.
Laura Dugger: [00:14:49] Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors.
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Laura Dugger: [00:17:13] So it sounds like prayer really united both of you together during this whole process. But let's also expand the topic a little bit more to parenting too because you had three girls. Was prayer important to them during this process as well?
Marla Ringger: Yeah. We were pretty authentic with our kids. I mean, we just basically would tell it like it is. So when we had them pray, we really wanted them to pray their hearts. We didn't do the rote prayers that often. We probably started that way.
And it was really neat because at times Gary when he would come home stressed or he knew he had a business decision to make, he would actually go to the girls. I mean, all through their childhood and he would ask them to pray for him on this certain business decision. And it really tied our family together because they took an interest in what he was going through.
Gary Ringger: And I would say two things on that. One is, later at our 25th anniversary, they wrote a book and basically-
Marla Ringger: 40 things I love about mom and dad.
Gary Ringger: Mom and dad. And what was interesting, because I remember when I was going through the ups and downs and struggling, like Marla says, sharing with them, they really appreciated that because it showed them the realness. And then when cool things happen, like the Reader's Digest thing, they would know that, too.
[00:18:44] One other thing I will say, I mean, during that time, there were times where I was so focused on the business that I was not into it the way I should have been with my family. I mean, I was always faithful, but I was really… my mind would be away sometimes. I'd be there, but I wouldn't be there.
But the one thing I did do right was I always put the three girls to bed. That was my job. And I would stand... We had two bedrooms, two girls in one and one in the other bedroom. And I would play the guitar and I'd sing songs and they'd have their favorites. Then I pray with them. And then while they were little, I would lay down with them. I'd a lot of times fall asleep.
But what I found is that kids when they go to bed is a very tender time, and that's when you can reach them. And we would always say, "What's the most important thing that you're going to do when you grow up?" And that's to repent and give your life to the Lord. That was a nightly thing that we would say, you know. And then they would pray, "God give me grace, that when it's the right time that I will give my life to the Lord in a meaningful way."
I always told them, "As long as you're praying that day by day, you're going to know when the right time to give your life to the Lord and He'll be faithful." So it was a great thing.
Marla Ringger: [00:20:02] And thankfully, we weren't living in a vacuum. We had close friends who raised their kids very similar to the way we did. So there was that positive peer pressure for our kids with families who we all wanted that same thing. So there wasn't a lot of that pulling away because somebody gets to do something they didn't. So I mean, we weren't unique in that. Our dear friends raised their kids very similarly as we all tried to do. Because we had that one goal was that they grow to know the Lord, right, personally.
Gary Ringger: That was just the thing that every night... in my routine with them, nothing else matters outside of that. If you do give your life to the Lord, that's the whole thing.
Marla Ringger: And I remember one instance in particular when... this was back when we were still working with the feeds business because we were traveling to... Right? Wasn't that what the feed business when we traveled to Holland and we were going to fly overseas and we were sitting at the dinner table? And I still remember Leslie, she was probably in fourth grade, and her eyes got wide when she knew we were going to fly over the ocean and it kind of freaked her out. And she says, "What if the plane crashes?"
Gary Ringger: And I was frankly freaking out about that a little myself because it was my first flight overseas.
Marla Ringger: [00:21:24] And it happened that just that week or the week before, Dr. Dobson had his heart attack. I was an avid listener of Focus on the Family. And he was being wheeled into surgery and his son Ryan was there. And he told his son, Ryan, he said, "I don't know what's going to happen, if I'm going to come out of this or not. But the most important thing to me is that you will be there in heaven so that when I am there, I will see you there too." And so "be there" kind of became our family motto.
Gary Ringger: Yes. And the way we said goodnight, "Goodnight, and I love you. Be there." That's always the way we said good night.
Marla Ringger: You know, I'm telling you, we told the girls that. Just the most important thing is that you'd be there. So heaven forbid our plane won't crash, but if it does, you remember to be there in heaven. And yeah, Leslie especially... well, all of them-
Gary Ringger: Yeah, still do that. And my license plate is "be there five" because there were five of us.
Marla Ringger: "Goodnight. I love you. Be there." That's all. Those would be the last things we'd hear every night before they go to bed. So that was kind of a sweet memory.
Laura Dugger: [00:22:28] That is so memorable. Be there. And like you said, any parent can relate to that. That's the ultimate goal.
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Laura Dugger: [00:23:13] Let's switch back to your book. Because in your book you mention that God's timing is perfect. So do you have a story that you could use to illustrate that thought?
Gary Ringger: Yes. So a story that relates to my dear wife, since we're talking about the whole relationship, as this time went by, Ringger Foods started to become successful and I started getting offers periodically to sell the company. And at one point there was an offer that I was interested in but Marla was not. And we had it as just a standard: if there's anything major, we're not going to do this unless we're in agreement, in peace with it.
So one night, frankly, we were on the way to church and we went by our plant and I looked at Marla and I said, "I'm mad at you." She goes, "What? Why are you mad at me?" And I said, "Because I want to sell the company and you're not at peace with it. We have basically three customers. If we lose one of those customers, we're in trouble." And Mara said, "Oh, Gary, you'll figure it out." And I said, "Yeah, easy for you to say." So that was our little conversation. I wasn't really mad at her, but I was just frustrated.
Well, within that week I was on a plane going down to visit one of these customers, and I was in the plane 30,000 feet up reading a book by Chuck Swindoll, and it was called The Mystery of God's Will. And the reason why I was reading that, I'm still searching this out. I'm trying to figure out what God wants us to do.
But as I read, I read it, it was a chapter he was talking about fear. And as he was talking about that, 1 Timothy came to mind where it says, "God is not the spirit of fear, but He's a spirit of power and love and a sound mind. And I knew there I just... you know, sometimes where you can read and you just know God's talking. I knew He's talking to me. I knew I wanted to sell because of fear. So I just a peace about it.
So I did my business, I checked in the hotel and I called up Marla. She answered, and I said, "Hey, babe, I got something to share with you." And she said, "Wait, I've got something to share with you." I'll let her share what she shared.
Marla Ringger: [00:25:25] Well, just that morning I had listened to Focus on the Family, and lo and behold, Chuck Swindoll was being interviewed on his book, The Mystery of God's Will, and he talked about fear and that fear should not keep you from doing what God is calling you to do or you shouldn't react out of fear because of that verse that Gary just quoted.
Gary Ringger: So it was just like, wow, God spoke the same verse, the same messenger. And then she said, kind of real cute to me and "I don't want you to be mad at me, but I'll support you whatever you want to do. But I don't want you selling out of fear." And then I was able to share, you know, how God spoke to us together. So we never looked back.
But the reason why that's perfect timing is what was cool is that company was going to give us a certain amount down and then the answer would come. I was going to stay working for them for like four or five years.
Well, what happened within a year or two, that company went broke, so we would have just got the first payment. And what happened within two years of that, God opened the doors in a very plain way when Marla was at peace, we had been praying about it. He opened it in a clear way that if I wouldn't listen to my dear wife and if she wouldn't have been listening and just not at peace with it, and if he wouldn't have spoken to us in the way He did, a life song for our friends would have never happened because we would have sold at the wrong time. So he's got perfect timing. But we have to listen.
Laura Dugger: That's right. It makes me think of the threefold cord. That is not easy to tear apart when you have the married couple and God involved in this. So I think this is a story that illustrates a healthy marriage. I'm just curious, how did the two of you work together and how would you advise couples to do the same?
Gary Ringger: Oh, from my perspective, one was that rule we had. I mean, there were things that we disagreed on. And if I wanted to buy red socks instead of black socks, I could do that. But anything major we wouldn't do without being at peace with it. I also think just as the civil... like we've always said, the prayer, even have... a lot of couples do this: they pray together. And I think that's great. But ours was more of... I think we stimulated each other to pray more and have more of a quiet time together than we would have on our own. And I think that was something that it worked.
Marla Ringger: [00:27:59] I also think that there were... Like, just for instance, when he wanted to sell the business and I didn't have peace, it wasn't even something I prayed about right then. I just knew that I didn't feel peace about that. And then when the time came to sell the business to the right company, I knew... I mean, of course, we committed that to prayer, but I just knew intuitively that that's what we were supposed to do.
And I feel like even on big decisions, you know, God directs our steps. So sometimes we just are walking through life and He is directing the way we're going. And it doesn't always have to be a specific prayer request. But He just opens doors, He shuts doors. I just think we just kind of walk and do. And if we are committing our lives to Him, He is directing the way we're going. And sometimes it's actually as simple as that.
Gary Ringger: It's been quite an adventure. And I think early on I had this view, once I got going The Ringger Feeds, I thought that'd be where I retire. But we have really learned. I tell people to hold your life with an open hand and just really be open to where God is leading, and it will be... who knows what may turn up? I wasn't expecting to do what I'm doing, that's for sure.
Marla Ringger: I never expected this.
Laura Dugger: [00:29:23] Well, let's pick up with that part of the story then. You didn't sell to that first company. What happened next?
Gary Ringger: So we did sell to this company-
Marla Ringger: To the next company.
Gary Ringger: To the next company. And then all of a sudden we had this money that was more than we'd ever had that we had committed to give for ministry. I talked to a friend and mentor of mine, and I said, "What?" His name is Clay. I said, "Clay, what do we do with this money?" And he said, "Be focused and involved. Don't just write checks. Be focused and involved." Also, he said, "And dream big. That way if it happens big, then you know it's God and not you."
So I like that. And we're used to this daily prayer. So we start asking God, what did He want us to focus on. One of our data points was a memory that had happened years ago that I'll let Marla explain.
Marla Ringger: A young couple in church, probably 20 years ago, was adopting a little boy from Korea, Daryn and Maria. And she had had cancer before she was married and so wasn't able to have children biologically. We were just chatting in the back hall and she was telling me how much it was going to cost for them to bring this little boy home.
And I went home that day and I just said, "Gary, no young couple should have to go into debt to have a child, to adopt a child especially." She had told me how much it was going to be. We committed to helping them with that cost that time. And it was just so cool because we had a vested interest in this little boy that came home from Korea.
[00:31:08] So we would notice him in church and it was just a real blessing in our life being able to help them. And it just sort of evolved into why don't we help other adoptive families with financial assistance who are trying to adopt?
Gary Ringger: And from a business guy's perspective, it made sense to me. But it's costly to adopt. But then you're in the God's plan family and there's no ongoing cost. The family pays for that. So it was that and several other things that led us into starting helping folks adopt. And it's been a great journey.
Marla Ringger: And it's interesting because like Gary said earlier, neither of us have adopted, but our children all have taken up that banner.
Gary Ringger: Now we have nine adopted grandkids.
Marla Ringger: Nine adopted grandkids. So yeah.
Laura Dugger: [00:31:57] And so from that point on, how did God expand your initial goal from creating this family foundation to then use Lifesong for Orphans for so much more than you could have ever asked or imagined?
Gary Ringger: It has been quite a journey. But originally, as you said, my goal when we first started doing these adoption grants was strictly our family foundation. And we had a small budget. We were helping what we could. But through that work we got introduced to a lady who was starting a ministry in Ukraine, and ultimately she asked us to go over to Ukraine. We saw the ministry that was happening there. We were excited about it and we came home feeling convicted that we should help with that.
But I knew that if we started helping that it was bigger than our little foundation. Marla and me were both... I'm the business guy. I make money. I don't ask for money. If we did this, we were gonna start asking for help. Marla always handle charity. She didn't know how she felt about it. My dad, who's always been a great mentor, he said, "You know, you don't have to twist people's arms. Just ask them to come alongside." And it kind of reached a-
Marla Ringger: He said, "You don't have to twist people's arms. You just have to tell them the story."
Gary Ringger: Tell them the story. And then they can come alongside. And it kind of reached a kind of a turning point was Dad's advice. Plus, it was on a short seven-minute, eight-minute trip from my house to the office where I don't know if you remember Rich Mullins, but he was singing a song help me, Jesus, I'm shaking like a leaf. And that's kind of where I felt.
And I was feeling just kind of overwhelmed by the thought. And I felt, if you will, in repentance, I felt God was saying "you have spiritual pride about your family foundation". This is not your family. It's my family. And you need to let go." So I let go. And what happened was I wanted it to be a family foundation because I wanted my kids involved. They are way more involved than myself.
Marla Ringger: Yeah, they're way more involved.
Gary Ringger: [00:34:17] And Lifesong has become way bigger than what we thought or have helped. Now, roughly 8,000 kids adopted and there's roughly 8,000 kids in orphan care ministries. It's just been way more than what we ever expected. And we've met... It's really expanded our view of the family of God, too. We've met so many Christian believers. And I think-
Marla Ringger: To me, that was a huge blessing because it totally God out of the box I had Him in when I met believers from all over the world. And even just processing applications from adoptive families, reading their stories and the sacrifices they were making to adopt and the types of children with special needs that they were adopting. I mean, it totally made my whole picture of the family of God or God's family global, you know. It really changed my... It just really changed me. It changed both of us.
Gary Ringger: It changed me in the sense... I tell people, you know, I've been broken many times. Apostle Paul said, "I die daily." But I have had two major times where I have had God broke me that we've talked about here today. And I would say it's made me even when I see grandkids and kids go through things, it makes me not get too worried about that because I know we got to go through some hard times for God. For me, I don't let go and really trust Him unless I'm in trouble.
Laura Dugger: [00:35:54] I think we can relate to that. And even with this story, it just goes back to one of your mentor's quotes about dreaming big and that way if it happens you know is God-
Gary Ringger: And we know it was God.
Marla Ringger: We know it was God. We know it was God.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Well, is there any last thought or action step that you would like to recommend to each listener today, both for Radical Business and Radical Parenting?
Gary Ringger: Well, I would say from my perspective, what has been life-changing for me is the quiet time in the morning. That has been the key to my change of getting to know Jesus in a much more personal way. That's been life-changing for me.
Marla Ringger: Well, I would say, first of all, support your husband. But second of all, I would say, don't be too hard on yourself as a mom, especially with young children. I was most consistent at being inconsistent. And we laugh about that today. But my kids have appreciated that fact about the way we raised them. So we didn't do everything right.
Laura Dugger: [00:37:01] That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. And if anybody listening today wants to get involved further, whether that's reading your book Radical Business or learning more about Lifesong for Orphans, where do we direct them?
Gary Ringger: Just go to Lifesong for Orphans. Our whole goal is to help other people get involved. So feel free to check that out. As far as the book, you can get that on the Lifesong website. There's also a radicalbusiness.co website as well.
Marla Ringger: And you can also get it on Amazon. And if you email info@lifesong.org, you can ask any question. You can ask for a book, you can ask how to get more involved. But definitely go to our website lifesong.org.
Laura Dugger: [00:37:45] Perfect. We'll link to all of that in our show notes and on our resources page so it makes it easy in case somebody is driving and they can't take notes right now. But our listeners know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question today, what is your savvy source?
Marla Ringger: Well, my favorite Bible verse or one of them, I have several, but one of my favorites is be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven you. I just think kindness is very much missing in our culture and in our society today. So I have a little plaque that I look at often. It says, "Be kinder than you feel." So I think savvy sauce would be "Be kind."
Laura Dugger: Well done. Be kinder than you feel.
Gary Ringger: I guess I've already said it. My main savvy sauce would be a quiet time with the Lord and then just embrace an adventure. Don't be afraid to take risks, because if you're in that day-to-day relationship with the Lord, then you're safe.
Laura Dugger: [00:38:50] Well. I've said this before, but I found it such a blessing to get to be related to both of you and your amazing family. And this time was just so energizing. And I appreciate your story of faith and obedience, which has certainly stirred my heart today. So thanks for being my guest.
Gary Ringger: And thank you.
Marla Ringger: Aw, thanks, Laura. It's been fun.
Laura Dugger: [00:39:12] One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
[00:41:10] At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 14, 2019
Monday Oct 14, 2019
*Disclaimer: This episode contains mild thematic material and is intended for mature listeners only*
78. Parenting the Prodigal Child And God’s Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin
**Transcription Below**
“Am I now trying to win the favor and approval of men, or of God? Or am I seeking to please someone? If I were still trying to be popular with men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.”
Galatians 1:10 (Amp)
Claire Stanfill is an Atlanta native, married to Tom for 36 years. They have 4 married children and 12 grandkids. She was a stay at home mom but now is an empty nester, even though she still stays ever so busy with family. Claire loves to do anything creative, sit on the beach, and enjoy quiet days at home where she can recharge.
Tindell Baldwin has a heart for teenagers to see the ugly side of sin and the amazing redemptive power of a Savior who desperately loves them. She is author of “Popular: Boys, Booze, and Jesus” where she tells her honest account of a life without God and the lies she believed that lead her to search for fulfillment and acceptance at any cost. She volunteers as a small group leader for high school girls at her church. Her love of writing and truth is only matched by her love for her family and most days you can find her at home with her three kids and husband in Marietta, GA (and baby #4 is on the way!!!). For more about Tindell and her ministry visit, www.tindellbaldwin.com
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Connect on Socials: @tindellgrace @clairestanfill
Jesus paid it all, sung by Kristian Stanfill
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:01] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
It's fun to have our first mother-daughter duo as guests. I know you will enjoy this vulnerable chat with Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin. Whether you're a teenager currently or you're parenting a teen, this chat is for you. Prepare to hear the wisdom that comes after seasons of heartache and to be inspired by God's story of redemption.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Claire and Tindell.
Claire Stanfill: Thank you.
Tindell Baldwin: Thank you. Glad to be here. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start by having both of you introduce yourselves and then give us a snapshot of who you are. So, Claire, you are the mother here. We're going to start with you.
Claire Stanfill: I've lived in Atlanta all my life and my husband has too. At 18, I was saved but still had a very rebellious spirit. So went away to college and was in and out of my walk. I got pregnant after dating my husband now for a few weeks and we were married three weeks later. So we had known each other approximately six weeks. Crazy.
Now we've been married 36 years and we had four children in six and a half years. Now we're empty nesters. So we've come full circle. All my children live in Atlanta, all four of them, and I get to see them a lot. We have 12 grandkids. Right now I'm caring for my mom, who's older and struggling, so that's kind of my focus, my family, my kids, my grandkids, whoever needs me. [00:02:22]
Laura Dugger: Tindell, what about you?
Tindell Baldwin: Born and raised in Marietta, just a little bit outside of Atlanta. Had three brothers. Went to Auburn for college. That's where my husband and I met. And I was saved at Auburn freshman year of college. We've been married almost 10 years now and have three kids: Claire, named after my mom actually, is six, Briggs is four and a half, and Colby is our spunky two-year-old.
Out of college, I kind of realized that because of my life's journey and when I became a Christian, I really loved helping teenagers. So shortly after graduating, I started writing a book for teenagers, just my story of becoming a Christian. When I was 25, it got published. It's called Popular.
For the past eight or so years, I've been doing high school ministry in some way, shape, or form, speaking, writing. I have a group of high school girls at our church and that's kind of what I love doing. But my main gig is mom of three. I stay home with them and kind of do the other stuff on the side, but love getting to be a Mom to my little ones. [00:03:27] Yes. Yeah.
Laura Dugger: Love it. Your book was incredible. You are a gifted writer. You two have just been on quite the journey and I think you're going to encourage so many parents and teenagers today. So, Tindell, let's go back to your memoir that you wrote about growing up in a wealthy suburb outside of Atlanta, like you mentioned, and all these pressures that you faced. I really appreciate your willingness to be so transparent. So will you just share a bit of your story with us?
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah. So for me being raised in a Christian family, I had an understanding of God. I knew who God was, but I more knew who He was in my family's life. Not so much maybe in my life. I kind of looked at God like Santa Claus. Like I asked Him for things and when He didn't deliver, I kind of stopped believing.
Growing up with three brothers who were super achieving, I kind of didn't know where I fit into the mix. So my answer was to rebel and kind of go my own way. I was like, "If I can't be as good as them, I'll kind of do my own thing." So I thought the best way to do this would be to chase popularity. [00:04:33] I wanted the classic kind of high school things. I wanted to go to the parties. I wanted to have a boyfriend. I wanted to have the big group of friends.
So I kind of decided freshman year of high school that I was going to chase after that, no matter the cost. And so I did for three-plus years. Or really, no. More. Like five. Chased after being popular, being accepted, and everything that that looked like in high school.
It took me down super dark roads. And that's why I was kind of driven to write the book, is because I felt like there wasn't a great portrayal of what high school actually looked like running away from Jesus and the really dark side of sin. And so I wanted to give my school girls, especially an honest account of what it looked like to walk away from the Lord and what it looked like to actually pursue those things and what it looked like to be really entangled in sin.
Because I went from, you know, growing up in a great Christian home at 15, still going to church, and then by 18 my life was pretty much a total train wreck. I was pretty much addicted to alcohol. I was smoking weed every day before school. I've been sleeping with my boyfriend and that had led to a breakup and heartbreak and then just continually giving my body away as a way to try to get love. [00:05:38]
I just went down all these avenues basically looking for love and acceptance and hoping that they would satisfy and fulfill. And they didn't. I felt like I had this secret, like this understanding of what it actually looked like to walk away from God. I didn't feel like that was being portrayed accurately to high schoolers. You know, media and now social media portrays that lifestyle as just so fulfilling and wonderful and like you get all these things that you want. And I just felt like I had an in. Like I knew that that wasn't true and I wanted girls to see that.
Laura Dugger: So even when you were in it... so you achieved these things. You were popular, you had the boyfriend, had all the things that you were pursuing. Even in those moments in high school, did you know that you weren't satisfied?
Tindell Baldwin: Again, it was temporary. I could feel good quickly or I could feel better right now but it was only induced by substances or parties or boys. When I sat with myself, when I sat alone, or when I sat to journal, the only thing that came out was pain. It was so temporary and fake. You know, I always worry about losing my social standing. It's like, yeah, I was popular, but if they stopped liking me, I wouldn't be popular anymore. It's like, yeah, I had a boyfriend, but he could break up with me any day. [00:06:47] And like, yeah, some people thought I was pretty, but that could go away too.
Everything felt so like I was living on the edge of falling off at any moment. So I think when I would sit back and reflect, I knew, but I mean, there was enough distraction to stay satisfied for as long as I needed to.
Laura Dugger: That's well said. I think a lot of teenage girls maybe are relating to that and they're in that season right now. I'd love to transition to you, Claire, as the mom. Let's hear your side now as we just go back a few years to when she was a teenager and life started changing in your household. What was your first red flag that you were going to be facing new issues with your daughter that you had never encountered before with your sons?
Claire Stanfill: Right. It's crazy. My past almost completely mirrored Tindell's. Before we even discovered anything, I felt her slipping away, I felt her not wanting to communicate with me as she had always. I almost was in denial because I was so afraid she was going to do what I did. [00:07:54] I was so afraid to speak up and say, "I've been there, Tindell. This is going to lead to a dead end of pain and consequences."
So I kept it to myself a lot, but the signals got very strong. I mean, first, a friend of hers came over and showed us that Tindell had a water bottle filled with vodka. I mean obviously, that's a tremendous change in our daughter and the direction she's going. Her clothes, her friends, her music, and in general just her spirit, all you could tell we're going down into a dark place.
She was dressing very provocatively. She was making fun of our Christian walk or music. In fact, we would go on trips, and in the car we would usually play like an Andy Stanley sermon or whoever, and Tindell was really good at putting her earphones on, but cranking her music up, which was rap, as loud as she could. [00:09:06] So with the sermon, we heard the rap. It was like Andy versus rap.
We knew we just had to let her find her way and not shove it down her throat. But we knew what was going on. The boys told us, "This is what we see. This is what we hear." Then I got a couple of phone calls from people telling me things. And there again, I was somewhat in denial, but then when the vodka appeared, you know, it was like, Okay, we're in this.
Laura Dugger: That's one of the first times it became real.
Claire Stanfill: Yes, very.
Laura Dugger: What did your conversations and prayer life even look like behind closed doors with your husband or with your friends and mentors during this time when it seemed like nobody could get through to your daughter?
Claire Stanfill: You know, I felt like we were truly in a tug-of-war with Satan. The more we pulled, the more our feet seemed to lose ground. Coming down hard on Tindell, it didn't seem to open her eyes at all. [00:10:06] I spent tons and tons of time on my knees and just begging God to give me the intuition, the insight for the Holy Spirit to really speak to me.
I think because I had actually lived through it myself, I knew when things weren't right. And I just was begging God to really show me and help me catch her, help me prevent terrible things from happening. I was begging Him to bring her back to His fold, to love her back in, and for her heart to turn. But truly, it was evil against good.
Tindell Baldwin: And I got to the point, she would actually warn me not to do something, and because she had been right enough times, I would like... she was like, "Don't go to that party," and I mean, everyone at the party would get arrested. It got to the point where I was like, "I don't know if I believe in this God thing, but you got something that I have to trust because she would, I mean, be right without fail. It was crazy.
Claire Stanfill: When that developed, it was slowly, but surely Tindell would see that happen and she was willing to say, Okay, maybe I shouldn't go do that. [00:11:11] So that was later. In the beginning, she was figuring out ways to fool us, leaving the house in one outfit, with another outfit that was so tiny it fit into her purse.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm just wondering, as a mom, what was that like when you knew, let's use that example, you knew that she was going to be changing. Was that emotional for you, or how did you even start to release control of that?
Claire Stanfill: Yes, great question. We realized that coming down on the little things like her outfits might be fruitless and push her farther away. Our whole goal was to nurture and develop a relationship with her, no matter what she was doing. Of course, she was punished. We got very creative with every time we caught her, and that was very often. But we were just so focused on, "We want you, Tindell, to know we love you like God loves you and you can do anything and we're still going to love you. Yes, you're breaking our heart, but our heart is still for you." [00:12:17]
Laura Dugger: There's so much wisdom there. And I'm wondering for you, Tindell, was it harder when your parents came down on you and punished you or was it harder when they extended grace?
Tindell Baldwin: Oh, what a great question. It was for sure harder when they extended grace. Because when they came down on me, I could be angry. When they extended grace, like, what are you going to be angry about with grace? I mean, they always were trying to maintain a relationship with me. That was always clear. And they also, towards the end of high school, were just trying to save my life.
So things like my outfit were the least of their concerns as much as like, "we want you to come home alive." Their ongoing grace and unconditional love are markers in my mind of that period of my life.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. Was there any hope that was given to you during this season or advice or scripture that you clung to?
Claire Stanfill: Lots. We did get lots of advice from well-meaning friends and family. Most of the time they were saying we were doing everything wrong, we needed to do this. And this was people that hadn't really had experience with this anyway. [00:13:23] So we had to choose who we listened to.
I did get hope in the fact that God was speaking to me, just assuring me that He had her. And it was an overwhelming feeling. There were many days, don't get me wrong, that I was like, Okay, this is going to end terrible. Because like Tindell said, we were at certain times trying to save her life. She became so depressed and things like that.
But there just were glimmers of hope that either she would open up to us... You know, we would have a fun family time or something that just enabled us to think, Okay, there's the Tindell we know. I held on to quite a few scriptures, and one of them was from Matthew, Come to me all you who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest. And I know everybody knows that, but I felt a tremendous weight as the mom.
I feel like Satan was using the fact that I had not shared where I had been in my past, constantly bringing that up to my face, going, "Well, you did it. She's going to do it and there's nothing you can do. What you're doing is not good enough. This is going to end up in a complete disaster." [00:14:41]
I mean, there were times we had no hope, but yet that's when I just went to scripture. And the lies are thrown at you right and left. I really learned to take a thought captive. And those were usually lies. and to then replace that thought with a truth, which is scripture.
I would turn on worship music. Anything I could do to turn my mind around. Because I know as just a mom, women, we're emotional and our emotions can so direct how we handle things. I really did spend hours on my knees and in the Word.
Well, I also got hope, interestingly enough, from our oldest son, Kristian, who was engaged to Kerri. She was living in our house when all this was going on. And thankfully, Tindell really leaned into Kerri and shared a lot of what was going on. So Kerri had a little more insight. Tindell was very real with her. But Kerri kept telling me, It's going to be okay, Claire. This is going to end well. [00:15:51]
She has a great intuition and insight and understanding. She's just a wonderful, godly wife and woman. The more she told me that, the more I believed it. I was like, "Lord, you keep telling me this," because I really saw that as from the Lord. Our sons said the same thing. She would talk to them every now and then, and Kristian and Taylor especially would say, "It's going to be okay, Mom."
Laura Dugger: Isn't that interesting how that encouragement meant so much more and was actually more accurate than a lot of the advice that was given?
Claire Stanfill: Exactly. I know.
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Laura Dugger: Tindell, what about you? Were there any times during this process that your heart softened toward God as you sensed that He was pursuing you even in the midst of the month?
Tindell Baldwin: I mean, honestly, as far as things of faith, I had pretty much shut that door and kind of thought, like, maybe I'll get back to God when I'm older. But the markers of unconditional love did make me stop and think. Like, because my friends in my circle or the friends I had kind of in my worldly life, you know, love was always conditional. If you stopped performing, you were kicked out of the circle. I mean, there was always for performance to go with the love. You know, if I stopped sleeping with my boyfriend, he was going to break up with me. There was just all these things.
But with my family, I treated them horribly, was completely rebellious and disobedient, and yet they had this continual love and pursuit to love me, which was such a perfect picture of how God treats us that it did make me stop and think. And not necessarily even to point to God, but to think, like, they have something different that clearly my friends don't have. [00:19:02]
I had some great friends who I'm still friends with now, but for the most part, my life was so conditional. Everything in my world, as high school honestly kind of is, like, very conditional.
One time in particular, after my long-term high school boyfriend had broken up with me, and I was super distraught, and I was at lunch with my dad when I got the phone call that he was breaking up with me. And it was because I had gotten drunk and cheated on him. I mean, I deserved it. It was all brought on me by myself.
My dad kind of knew the backstory and they had known this was, again, something I brought on myself. And I came home from a friend's house, and they had put a dozen red roses on my bedside table just with a note that said, "You're dearly loved." It was the perfect time to shake their finger in my face and be like, "This is what happens when you don't listen. This is what happens when you live this life." But instead, they took that opportunity to love on me in such a tangible way that it was, again, such a marker in my head of – why would they love me? Like, why on earth would they do something like this for me? [00:20:05]
So it was things like that that did make me stop and think. Then there was a few towards the end of high school, maybe my senior year, a few people from my past at church, like back in middle school, sent me prayer books and notes and just things that, "Hey, I was praying, and your name came to my mind." People I hadn't talked to in years who just made the effort to reach out and just send me something was just a reminder. It was like God reminding me, like, I haven't forgotten you. You might have forgotten me, but I'm not done with you.
Then my oldest brother, Kristian, would say consistently, "God's going to do something amazing in your life. God's going to do something amazing in your life." I was just like, "Are you seeing my life? I'm a train wreck." But his belief that God wasn't done with me helped me not necessarily give up on myself.
Laura Dugger: That makes a lot of sense. I feel like something that the Lord has been teaching me in this season is that one part of love is just profound thoughtfulness. And it sounds like your family and some of these Christian friends from years ago, their profound thoughtfulness of you was a catalyst that kind of started softening your heart. [00:21:13]
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah, absolutely.
Laura Dugger: And stories are always helpful. So do you have any others that come to mind?
Tindell Baldwin: You know, one that stuck out with me, and it wasn't necessarily a story like I lived through, but it was just something my dad told me early on. I think I was a freshman or sophomore in high school. When this all started, they sat me down. We'd always have these kitchen table talks when they'd sit me down. I dreaded it.
But my dad said, "I like to compare high school to whitewater rafting." And he was like, "I've been through the rapids and I want to be your guide. And I can stand here and say the rapids are coming. You can't see it, but I can." He was like, "I want to be that for you. I want to tell you when it's coming."
He was trying to give me an example of "I've lived through this. I know where the pitfalls are." He liked to say, "Sin has tons of paths, but only one destination." That was his point was: "The rapids are all around you and you can't see it, you're just in the boat. But I've been down the river. I know it's coming. Let me help you. Let me guide you." [00:22:13]
He wanted to take that approach, they both wanted to take that approach, as opposed to, again, kind of shake your finger in your face and be like, "You should have done this. And why didn't you do this?"
Then later, him kind of watching me go through really tremendous pain and saying, like... Not in a "I told you so", but in a like, this is the rapid. I saw that. I could have helped you." You know, just trying to help walk with me so that I wouldn't shut them out.
Laura Dugger: Because there was a moment then, like you said, when he addressed this as the rapid, that was pretty powerful for you.
Tindell Baldwin: Yes. And actually, that was the lunch I was at with him when the boyfriend broke up with me. At that point, I had nothing left to hide. At this point, too, I'd kind of been excommunicated from the group for a little while because the boyfriend I was dating had said I couldn't come back to any of the parties or anything. And so I was kind of down and out. Then I was grounded too on top of that. I was kind of just at the rock bottom.
So at lunch my dad said, "What happened?" I just told him I was honest. I said, "No, I cheated on him and he broke up with me." [00:23:15] He was like, "This is what I wanted to prevent. I wanted to prevent the pain for you because now the rapids hit and it's too late and I can't take this pain away from you." And he was right. There's nothing he could do at that point to help me, except for again show me this crazy unconditional love. But that is what he was trying to help prevent me from.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. Again, thinking of that teenage girl listening, sometimes it's hard until they get to that point to realize what outsiders can see.
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah. And honestly, working with teenagers in some capacity for the last... I mean, I'm on my third group of small group girls. You know as much as I would love to say there's a quick answer to help teenagers, I think the reality is the best thing you can do for teenagers, be like the Kerri in their life... I tell other high school years all the time, like, Kerri, my brother's wife, was at that season like... he was living in their apartment and so she was living in our house and she was this consistent presence. [00:24:16]
And it's not like I went to her for advice and said, you know, what's the godly thing to do here? I never asked that. I went to her and said, "Can I talk to you? Will you help me? And she just consistently listened and cared for me. And as teenagers, the greatest thing you can do for them is listen to them, be present for them, and then justify their pain.
Like so often we want to tell teenagers, this isn't a big deal, but we know that because we've been through it. They don't know that. I mean, it's like when you have your first baby and you take him to the doctor for every little thing because you don't know what's a big deal and what's not. They're going through this and they don't know it. And how stupid do you feel when you take the baby to the doctor and the doctor looks at you and is like, why'd you bring him in?
That's how they feel when you look at them and say, This isn't a big deal. Like, oh, who cares who you're going to go to prom with? It's like, well, you probably cared when you were 16. But they care. So the most important thing we can do is justify their pain. "I'm sorry that hurts. It is real." Because it's real to them. And we can't take it from them, but we can help them see, like, you can make it through this or encourage them to keep going. [00:25:20] And just be present and listen.
Claire Stanfill: I need to give a lot of credit to my husband. Tommy is his name. He was always the even keel, see the big picture, and be able to come up with, Hey, this is how we can influence the relationship we have with Tindell, not this is how we can ground her or yell at her, do something to make us feel better because we've come down on her.
He was always focused on the huge picture, getting her to a great place in the end without losing any kind of relationship that we had. And I needed that. Because I need to make it clear we're sounding all great here. I had many times where I went up and just ripped Tindell a new one.
I mean, there was one time that she and a friend came home drunk and they were supposed to have picked up my youngest son at church. [00:26:22] They drove home, obviously, drunk. They did not pick up my son.
Tindell Baldwin: At a school event.
Claire Stanfill: Yes, thank goodness. Oh, yes, they had been at a school event and gotten rippled and drunk. I went upstairs and just vomited on them this speech of how disappointed I was. I mean, I made a fool of myself. I truly did. I felt at the time that maybe I was going to go better doing it and it did feel invigorating to just let it all out. But I had to go back upstairs very shortly after and go, "I am so sorry. I blew it."
And that's where I really needed my husband to say, "That's not going to get us anywhere." I knew it. The Holy Spirit tells you, "That was really good, Claire. Way to go. What a waste of time." So he was so instrumental, obviously, in speaking to her and then calming me down. We were a unified front. It took a little while for me to buy into what he thought should happen because I had my own ideas as well. So I just want to make sure that your listeners don't think, well, they did it all right. No, we didn't.
Laura Dugger: I appreciate that because I think as a mom we definitely can identify with that part of making so many mistakes. [00:27:40] We're trying our best.
Claire Stanfill: I know. I know.
Laura Dugger: Tindell, being years now removed from all of these experiences, what do you wish you could have gotten through to the head and the heart of teenage Tindell?
Tindell Baldwin: I love this because I don't know if there's a way to have gotten this through to me, but what I would have loved to understand at that age was that I was never too far gone from God. For me, I felt like the only objective goal, maybe when I knew I was going to enter this party lifestyle, was I'm not going to have sex before marriage. That was kind of the one thing I said I was going to keep that. Then once I did cross that line, I thought God was done with me. He had washed His hands of me and then I'm done with you.
I felt like that was such a bold lie that Satan had me believing and really kept me from even going back to Jesus because I felt like I couldn't go back. I had crossed that line, He was done. There was even a Good Friday service that we went to together, and Kristian was at Buckhead Church, way back when Buckhead Church was in a grocery store. [00:28:41] Christian was singing, and I just remember this big wooden cross being hung. The stage was in the middle of the room. This big wooden cross being hung in the middle of the stage and me looking at that cross and thinking that it was an invitation. Like there was an invitation from God and weeping. The music was so moving to me that I was weeping.
But I also remember thinking two things. One, I was too far gone, and then two, that the Christian life would never be as fulfilling as the party life I was leading. I would never have as much fun. I would never be as happy or satisfied as I was doing these things I was doing. Which is just so ironic now because now it's like the life I lead now is a billion times more fulfilling than that life I was living.
But yeah, those were the two things I wish I understood: how fulfilling and wonderful living in Christ is. And then just that God was never done with me. Like we aren't a disqualified person. It's actually what qualifies us for Jesus' grace.
Laura Dugger: And we all need a Savior.
Tindell Baldwin: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Well, Claire, did other people ever make hurtful comments or did Satan try to also whisper half-truths to you about your parenting during this struggle?
Claire Stanfill: Of course. We were great juicy gossip because we had these sons who really were excelling, as Tindell said. You know, Kristian was a worship leader at an early age. Taylor was high achieving in school with all the sports, and Brett was also an incredible worship leader. So it was like we had this black sheet that even a teacher at the school would say, what happened to you? And I think, how horrible. [00:30:28]
But I had people call me saying, "You need to do this," or "Did you know that Tindell did this?" Or "How in the world can you let her go to college where she is in her state of mind right now?" It's like we were on our own little island dealing with it because very few people had good intentions. It was more, Let me just tell you what is on the gossip train right now.
It was very discouraging. Because as a mom, you know part of our feeling fulfilled is to think we're doing a good job. And who measures that you're doing a good job? By the world standards, it's how you appear. What is your family doing? How are the kids behaving? All that stuff. And I was failing because I had a daughter that you know was not going the way we wanted her to go.
I had to deal with, You know what? I don't care what anybody thinks. Our family is right where God has us. He has us, number one. He's holding this. And these people that don't understand, one day they'll maybe understand. The beauty of it is so many people have been affected and encouraged and blown away by Tindell's decision to commit her life and become this incredibly beautiful mom in life. [00:31:59] Now, it's amazing the people that don't even have a faith that I know have made comments.
I had to work through making sure it wasn't for me that I wanted the reputation to be good. I just had to stop listening to a lot of what was going on.
Laura Dugger: I would think that that would be a very isolating feeling.
Claire Stanfill: It really was. And because we had gotten married so young, we were pioneering the moving on with older children. Most of our friends had children 10 years and younger, so we were kind of on our own. We didn't have a whole lot of older friends that had been through this kind of scenario that we could go, Oh, well, they did that and it really worked. We sought out lots of help, ministries, and things that could offer advice, but it was isolating. Very.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I wondered if you did seek out some mentors or somebody who had been through that. Was that helpful when you said reached out? [00:33:03]
Claire Stanfill: Yes, very. One ministry we reached out to was the Prodigal Child. It's a couple here in Atlanta that run the ministry. They had a prodigal child and they understood. They started this incredible ministry. We met with them, just listened to all that they had heard and seen through so many people that had come through their ministry. So they were a great resource. We had some counselors, both Tommy and myself, that we both went to.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing that. I think that's so courageous when you're able to reach out. I think it shows humility rather than that pride or self-righteousness.
Claire Stanfill: Yes. We need help.
Laura Dugger: We all do. So, Claire, if another parent right now is going through something similar, and they have their own prodigal child, how would you like to encourage them?
Claire Stanfill: I would say you have to hold tight to the truth. And the truth is Scripture. Over and over in Scripture, the promises that God gives us. [00:34:07] And just to name a few, He will never leave us or forsake us. Do not fear. The Lord goes with us. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you. Be confident and courageous.
Paul, to me, was a great example. He was chained in prison, but he had the confidence and the courage for all practical purposes. The view he had was disastrous, but yet he always moved forward in whatever way he could confidently and courageously. I felt like that was our call. I think that you have to do that with the Lord behind you.
I think sometimes going through this kind of pain, we can look at it as a terrible nuisance, or we have to sometimes walk through pain and suffering, and we cannot do anything about it. This was one of those cases. We couldn't make Tindell turn around, so we were in a painful walk for quite a long time.
And what I learned was that that made me to be in dire need of Jesus. [00:35:12] It drew me to Him and created the most tender relationship between myself and Him. I wouldn't have that. And I can always go back to that when I think about what we went through with her. My relationship will never be the same because of that scenario. There's other scenarios in my life, too, that I have to say, you know, God's doing the same thing as He did back then. Lean into Him. That's my main advice. He is your rock.
Laura Dugger: I think you keep painting such a nice big-picture view instead of us getting so caught in the here and now. But now you're in a different season and it seems like God has just given you such an enlarged heart from this.
Claire Stanfill: Yeah, what a blessing.
Laura Dugger: Over 90 of you have already left five-star ratings and reviews. That is so awesome. If you haven't done it yet, would you mind just pausing to head over to iTunes and you can leave your own five-star rating and review?
Here is one that Nicole J. left. "Love this podcast. I legitimately look forward to listening because each episode and each time I repeat an episode, there is always something new that encourages me and equips me as a wife, mom, and friend. There are good podcasts that encourage, but so far on this one, everything has been rooted in biblical truth. Highly recommend." [00:36:38] Wow, thank you, Nicole J.
Now back to the show.
Tindell, will you pick up your story and tell us how you then reached breakthrough?
Tindell Baldwin: Despite other people's advice, they did let me go to college, which was honestly my saving grace because I think being raised in a suburb with going through high school right after my brothers were all close in age, I think the best thing for me was to kind of get into a new space with new people and a new reputation and kind of having to figure out who I want to be.
So I went to Auburn and no one really knew who my family was. No one knew who I was. I kind of looked around and thought, Oh, I can, maybe start over a little bit. I wasn't looking for God or anything, but He was looking for me. I think a few months in, I kind of started the same lifestyle for a while and then joined a sorority kind of known for being crazy.
Then a few months in, I looked around and I was like, "This is just a different place and different people, but it's the same old thing. Same old hurt, same old pain, same old lifestyle." [00:37:39] I was like, "Okay, something's got to give." So I thought, "Okay, well, I'll stop doing drugs and I won't sleep with anyone I'm dating. That was to clean up my life a little bit from the outside looking in, like I'll have a better reputation.
I mean it was college so I was like, Oh, I'm not going to give up drinking or anything." But my mom kind of saw the change in heart. And we were talking on the phone. College did wonderful things for our relationship. Just like a little of a distance, having to do all my own laundry and cooking and all that. I was like, Oh, I have a new appreciation for everything you've done for me my whole life.
So I was talking to her and I said, "I think I'm gonna go to my sororities Bible study." She was like, "Oh, you have to tell me. Sit down before you say stuff like that."
Claire Stanfill: It was a shock.
Tindell Baldwin: Yeah, it was a shock. But I just started being more open, and she saw that and was in tune with that. And so January of my freshman year, my oldest brother, Kristian, was leading his first Passion Conference, which is just a conference for college students based around Jesus. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know who the speakers were. I just knew it was a big deal for my brother. And he'd always been so overly supportive and loving to me. All my brothers had. [00:38:42] And I thought, "Okay, I'll go." I think my dad was like, "We'll go shopping in Nashville. It was in Nashville.
So I went and the first speaker that I heard at the conference was Beth Moore, which like, if you've ever heard Beth Moore speak, you feel like she's just talking to you. She was talking about the pit and the pit of sin, what that looks like and how God can choose the person in Psalms, about how God lifts you out of the pit and puts your feet on solid ground.
I think for the first time, I kind of saw that all the pain in my life had been my own doing. Like I had dug the hole and jumped in myself and kept digging and hoping to make things better and cleaning up my life in any sort of way it wasn't going to do anything, but that like Jesus was the one person that's going to lift me out and put my feet on solid ground.
So then that night my brother came on stage and was singing Jesus Paid It All, which the chorus is, O praise the one who paid my debt, who raised this life up from the dead. And I just was ready. I think I was willing to surrender and accept that I had wrecked my own life, then I was ready for Jesus to wreck it in a good way and put it back together. [00:39:45]
And so I did. I accepted Jesus that night and went back and told them pretty quickly after and then met with my brother and his wife and talked to them and apologized to them for pain I had put them through. It was really beautiful.
But then I had to go back to college and college is hard when you're a new believer. It's not an easy place to start loving Jesus. So I had to kind of work through what it looked like. It was not like I came back to college and was like, Now I don't want to do any of the things that I used to do. It was very much having to trust God and a baby step of trusting him. Like you say, I'm supposed to do this and live this way, but are you right? Like, do I really believe you? It was not a full 180. I'm completely good. It was very much slow and steady baby steps to trusting and loving Him and believing that He really did have what was best for me.
I feel like within a year I was all in, willing to do whatever it took to know and love Him in a real way. I just realized He was the only thing that was going to put my life on a path that was worth living. [00:40:54] I met my husband the next year, who's a wonderful Christian man and we married.
Laura Dugger: So life has drastically changed since you surrendered everything to Jesus. Catch us up now and tell us more of how it has changed.
Tindell Baldwin: You know, honestly, I think that an easier thing would be how it hasn't changed because there's not really one part of my life that God hasn't touched. It's such a wonderful thing. I mean, hard, but wonderful that I get to be such a different person. It was such a clear transformation for me that it was like, it's easy for me to trust God because I know what life was like without Him.
I mean, how I parent is totally different because of my love for Jesus, how I love my husband, how I love others, how I treat other people, the things I prioritize, the voice I listen to. Our need for love and acceptance, what I was searching for back at 15, doesn't go away. But how I fulfill it now is through Jesus. [00:41:53]
I think the main difference is I'm not following Jesus out of any shame or guilt or any family push. I'm following him because I have utter gratitude for what He did for me on the cross and what I know and believe and have seen that He's done for me. It's been easier for me to trust Him with things that's maybe harder if you've known Jesus your whole life. I think in some aspects it's been an easier transition for me because there's such a clear picture of my life before Jesus and my life afterwards.
Laura Dugger: Claire, what was that moment like when you realized that God had rescued Tindell and she had accepted Him as her Lord and Savior?
Claire Stanfill: It was almost like speechless elation. I didn't have the words. I had lots of tears of joy. I was beyond thankful. It was like the vision that I had had for her life was coming to fruition. And there were no doubts. The burden had been lifted. [00:42:55] I just felt an immediate gratitude, incredible gratitude that, wow, she's been delivered. We have her back. We have our family unity back without contention.
It's hard to put into words. I'll tell you what it was like. When Tindell was born, we didn't know she was going to be a girl. We had had Kristian and Taylor, and of course, I wanted a girl. And when they said, "It's a girl," I said, "Show me." I was just in shock and beyond happy. And it's almost like she was born again to me. I got her back. I felt that feeling of "I can hold her again." She's my girl.
There were days I thought we were losing her. Many weeks. I read her journal, she wanted to kill herself. She was cutting herself. It was not pretty. To envision the end being this incredible. It was more incredible than I could have ever envisioned because God created it, and He made it happen. It still blows me away.
Laura Dugger: I think every parent listening can relate to that, myself included. Our oldest is only five, and yeah, I long for that day where... I'm going to just paraphrase but I have no greater joy than to know that my children are walking in the truth.
Claire Stanfill: Amen. Amen. [00:44:19]
Laura Dugger: So how has your relationship with each other, the mother-daughter relationship, how has that changed since that day?
Tindell Baldwin: Oh man. Honestly, I do feel like college, even before then, like just going to college started repairing, if that can give parents hope. I tell a lot of mothers of teenagers all the time, like when they leave the house, there's like a renewed understanding for everything they've done for you, all that your mom's done for you.
I mean, we live 10 minutes away right now, which is super fun. We named our oldest Claire after her just for what an impact she's been on my life. We have a great friendship. It's a joy to be friends with your mom, to go to lunch on a Thursday. How I parent has been influenced by our relationship. I'm super grateful that we have the bond that we do, a friendship that we do.
Laura Dugger: Because you didn't try to force a friendship early on. You were the parent, Claire and now you get to reap so many blessings.
Claire Stanfill: So true. So true. [00:45:24]
Laura Dugger: From your perspective, how has the relationship changed with your daughter?
Claire Stanfill: Oh, it's just sweet. It's real. The great thing too is that I don't think we ever totally lost a relationship. It wasn't like we had to then, once she came back to the Lord, figure out how to have a relationship. Like I said, my husband was so instrumental in making sure that that happened. So we've just been able to go deeper, move to the next level.
Now we are just the closest of friends. Probably not a day goes by we don't talk. I just adore her, my time with her. I'm so just in awe of what God's done and that I get to have this relationship with her.
Laura Dugger: Well, Tindell, what do you want to say to the teenager who's in a season right now of rebellion and resisting anything related to what their parents are saying or what God wants to say to them?
Tindell Baldwin: I would challenge them just not to believe that they're ever too far gone, that God is a Redeemer. And even though they might not be able to see where He's working in their story, He hasn't given up on you, even if you've given up on Him or given up on yourself. [00:46:38]
Also to find someone who can have faith for you when you don't. Kerri was that person to me. But to have someone who you can talk to, who can be like a guiding light for you. Honestly, I would say older than you. I think your peers are wonderful, but having someone a little farther ahead that can be a small group leader or mentor or something. Just finding that person and being able to have them encourage you and again, maybe have faith for you when you don't, I think is a vital thing.
Laura Dugger: And to have a mentor in all of these things.
Claire Stanfill: Amen.
Tindell Baldwin: Yes. Yes.
Claire Stanfill: Definitely.
Laura Dugger: Claire, what about you? What's the biggest lesson that God has taught you through all of this?
Claire Stanfill: I would say that He is enough and He is faithful. His promises are true. He who began a good work in you will complete it to the end, to the day of Jesus. Tindell was very outspoken like the fourth and fifth grade about God and heaven and who was going to heaven and who wasn't. [00:47:42] She loved to just tell people the truth.
Tindell Baldwin: All good fourth graders are.
Claire Stanfill: But I knew deep down in her heart that God had worked in her some. So I knew that she would come back. I think it's just having that faith, you know, and knowing that God really is enough. And I would say be united with your husband. I think it's so true.
And if you don't have a husband, if you're a single mom, I would say find that safe person that is like a mentor, who believes in you and understands you, that you can bounce things off of, because we all need a balance.
Laura Dugger: You really walked that faith where you had to believe in things that were not seen completely.
Claire Stanfill: Exactly.
Laura Dugger: Additionally, Tindell, how has your story impacted the way that you are now parenting your own children?
Tindell Baldwin: I think that's been one of the greatest blessings to me. One, I decided early on I wanted to heal from my story, which honestly writing it was super hard because writing your own story is really just kind of reliving everything you've gone through and figuring out where you need to get counseling, not get counseling, all that kind of stuff. [00:48:51]
So I did. I went through a lot of counseling as I was writing Popular. That helped me a ton just process my past. I think shame is such a powerful thing the enemy uses. I just decided I wasn't gonna be held back by shame. Like I believe that I'm a new creation and so I can live in freedom and I don't have to feel shame about my past, which has been huge going around and sharing my story. To know that I'm not who I was, that I'm a new creation, so I can live out of that.
So that's been great just now having two daughters and knowing I'm probably going to have to talk about some things that are hard and painful, and I'm going to have to walk through some maybe scary stuff with them.
Then also just like knowing that my kids walk with the Lord as their own. Having to trust that He has them and He loves them. That my prayer has always been that they know and love Him from an early age. But I think in my heart what's more important even than an early age, which is scary to say, but that they know and love Him authentically, and that their faith is their own. [00:49:50]
Because for me, even if I hadn't gone through the rebellion and I had lived out the steps of the Christian life, I didn't know Jesus, and I didn't understand what He had done for me. So I want my girls and my son to know not just what Jesus has done for them, but to experience Him in a real way so that their faith sticks and they don't lose it in high school or they don't lose it in college or whatever. Because I think even if I'd gone through the motions of Christianity when college had hit, I would have run away because it wasn't my own. So knowing that what's more important than necessarily them avoiding the pain is that they have a faith that's theirs.
Laura Dugger: And that's so hard in the day-to-day life of being a mom to do that. But when I hear you say that, it's so clear, like, yes, we need faith. That's essential. Well, this time has been an incredible blessing, and I'm sure that people are going to want to reach out or follow up. Maybe they have some questions or would love some guidance from the two of you. So where's the best place that they can connect with you online?
Tindell Baldwin: I have a blog, that's TindellBaldwin.com, which I have not been great about keeping up this year because I've been working on something longer, hopefully. [00:51:00] But, yep, I have a blog, and on there's a "contact me". Then I'm on social media. Tindell Grace is my Instagram.
Claire Stanfill: I'm on social media as well, or my email is just Clairestanfill@gmail.
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will link to all of that in our show notes. I have one final question for you today, ladies, because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy means practical knowledge. So we'd all love to hear what is your savvy sauce?
Tindell Baldwin: Oh, yeah. Okay, this is kind of super practical, but in this season of little kids to stay connected to my husband. We do something we call a Sunday night check-in. Well, the acronym is BUMPS, but it's budget, upcoming week, marriage, parenting, and spiritual.
So we go through these on Sunday night. We fold all of our laundry together on Sunday night after I get home from church and we go through each category. That's our time to like... maybe if things were hard or something came up that week. [00:52:01] It's just been a nice thing for us to stay connected on the same page, especially with parenting. That's been like our practical kind of saving grace and raising kids under six right now.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. We're going to link to that acronym even.
Tindell Baldwin: So good.
Laura Dugger: Claire, what about you? What is your savvy sauce?
Claire Stanfill: Well, I would say my advice or savvy sauce would be to laugh, listen, and learn every day.
My husband really has taught me to laugh. He is a funny guy, very upbeat. And I think that is just so important. We need to learn to listen well, listen to people's hearts, listen to God. It's just always so wonderful to learn.
Laura Dugger: I love both of your savvy sauces. This time has just been so enjoyable. I love getting to witness in person as we're in Atlanta recording this, just seeing the love and care you have for one another and for Jesus. So thank you for giving us your time today. [00:53:03]
Claire Stanfill: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Tindell Baldwin: Thank you so much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:54:04] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:55:04]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:56:07] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 07, 2019
Monday Oct 07, 2019
77. How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson
**Transcription Below**
Zechariah 4:10a (NLT) “Do not despise these small beginnings, for the LORD rejoices to see the work begin,"
Jeff Henderson is an entrepreneur, speaker, pastor and business leader. For the past 15 years, he has helped lead two of North Point Ministries multi-site locations in Atlanta, Georgia - Buckhead Church and Gwinnett Church. He also helped launch North Point Online which now reaches over 200,000 people. He is the founder of several organizations including Champion Tribes, a rite-of passage experience for fathers with middle school sons; Preaching Rocket, an online coaching program with over 20,000 participants; Launch Youniversity, a podcast for entrepreneurs; and the FOR Company, helping businesses and non-profit organizations grow. Jeff was recently named by Forbes Magazine as one of the 20 speakers you shouldn’t miss. Prior to working as a pastor, Jeff started his career in marketing with the Atlanta Braves, Callaway Gardens, Lake Lanier Islands and Chick-fil-A Inc., where he led the company’s regional and beverage marketing strategies. Jeff and his wife Wendy have been married 22 years and have a daughter, Jesse, and a son, Cole.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Know What You’re FOR by Jeff Henderson
The War of Art by Steven Pressfield
Previous Episode with Jeff Henderson: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Located in Morton, Illinois, Floral Designs is a full-service florist, as well as a home decor store. They are not your typical florist, as they offer fresh floral designs that are one-of-a-kind. They have a beautiful showroom, as well as offering in-home consultations for their clients. Visit them at floraldesigns-ltd.com, or check out their showroom.
Jeff Henderson is one of my favorite people to interview, so I'm excited to let you know we are bringing him back as a returning guest. Jeff just released his first book titled, Know What You're For: A Growth Strategy for Work, an Even Better Strategy for Life. We're going to learn more about his book and writing process, in addition to some practical life tips he shares as he mentors us.
I do want to let you know that we had a few issues with sound quality, especially at the beginning, but it gets much better, so please hang with us. [00:01:23]
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Jeff.
Jeff Henderson: Laura, it's great to be back with you. Thanks for having me again.
Laura Dugger: My pleasure. And for anyone who missed our previous recording, will you just give us a glimpse of your current stage of life?
Jeff Henderson: Sure. My wife, Wendy, and I have been married 22 years, and we have a college sophomore daughter at Samford University in Birmingham. And my son, Cole, is in his junior year at North Gwinnett High School, right next door to our church here in Gwinnett County in Atlanta.
We serve here as... I'm the lead pastor at Gwinnett Church, and I've been on staff here for 16 years. Before that, I was lead pastor at Buckhead, and then before that, worked in the chicken business, as you well know, with Chick-fil-A. So that's kind of a little bit of our story.
Laura Dugger: I love it. You have some very exciting news today, because you just came out with your first book. So will you tell us about your book?
Jeff Henderson: Absolutely. Well, as you well know, I've really been fortunate to work for two thriving organizations, Chick-fil-A and North Point Ministries, and I've had a front-row seat. [00:02:24] One of the things that both of these organizations have experienced is explosive growth. And through that explosive growth, they've been able to impact more communities than they ever imagined.
So I began to wonder, what caused them to grow? And then I began to figure it out and say, you know what, if I could boil this down to two questions, I bet it would be really helpful. Because, Laura, as you know, there's all sorts of reasons why an organization or a church or a nonprofit grows. But if you could boil it down to just one sentence or a couple of questions, could I do that?
So I worked through that and basically kind of came to these two questions. The first question is, what do you want to be known for? What do you want your church to be known for? What do you want your business to be known for? What do you want your podcast to be known for? Then the second question is, what are you known for?
So the first question, what do you want to be known for, that's your vision. That's your uniquely different proposition to the world if you're a business. This is what makes this podcast different. This is what makes this restaurant different. But the second question is the customer's experience with your vision. [00:03:25]
Now, the reason these two questions are important is when these two questions match, when the answers to these two questions are the same, when what you want to be known for is actually what you are known for, something powerful happens, Laura. You access the greatest form of marketing the world has ever and will ever see. And that's positive word-of-mouth advertising. The customers start telling other customers about your church, about your business, about your organization.
The reason this is important is in today's world, as you well know, a brand or a business is no longer what it tells customers it is. A brand is what customers tell other customers it is. All the power is now in the hands of the customers. So you can say that you're the best organization and this is what you want to be known for. But if that's not what you're actually known for, there will be a gap and sales and momentum will start to slow down.
So what the book is about is trying to make sure those two questions match. And I do that by calling it the core four. [00:04:26] There's four groups of people that you need to be for to basically shrink the gaps of those questions.
And so it's been fun for me to kind of process through my experience at Chick-fil-A and North Point. But not only that. I've had the opportunity to work alongside of or to observe a lot of great companies and I've applied these two questions to them. And as I've seen them do this, they've experienced the growth.
So that's what the book's about. It's probably a little odd for a pastor to be writing about a marketing or business book. But I'm a really odd person to begin with. So my hope is that this has an impact on business people, certainly pastors and church leaders for sure. But I think it's a principle that we can all learn from.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. I love hearing where this idea originated. You had also mentioned a long time ago in our first episode that you knew that you were blessed by working with these great churches and Chick-fil-A. But somebody called you out and said, "It's not just a blessing. This is stewardship." So is it just one person or was that multiple conversations you were having that caused you to then write the book? [00:05:32]
Jeff Henderson: It really was multiple. One of whom was my wife, Wendy, who just speaks constant wisdom into my life. But others like my mentor, John Woodall. And then my wife gives me a hard time, Laura, that I've never really left Chick-fil-A. I'm still on the Chick-fil-A voicemail system. I'm down there a lot. But still to this day I get people asking me questions about Chick-fil-A. Then when I'm at Chick-fil-A, people are asking me questions about Northpoint.
So through those questions, I thought, wow, I've actually been on both sides. I understand. Even though I left Chick-fil-A many years ago, I'm still very involved. I kind of know what's happening in the organization. So as people started asking me questions about the organizations and then I heard Wendy and John and others, I just thought, "I think they're right. I got to be a better steward of this opportunity and share with people what I've learned."
I'll give you a quick story real quick about this. The book opens with me driving Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, to a speaking engagement. I can't even remember where we were going or what happened, but that car ride, Laura, has followed me. [00:06:35] And that was 20 years ago.
What I remember about that car ride, Laura, is that Truett asked me questions, but it wasn't anything about the business. He asked me, how am I enjoying working here? He asked me about Wendy. He asked me about our kids. He asked me about my parents. He knew my parents. We talked about life. I asked him, how did he create this billion-dollar business but still be a wonderful husband and dad. We had a great conversation.
At the end of the night, I dropped Truett off, and I'm driving away, and I'm thinking, "Wait, we didn't talk about the business." Truett was more interested in me than he was getting information out of me about the business. And that's when I discovered the secret, one of the secrets that made his business grow.
This was so helpful for me to process this, Laura. I think it will be helpful for our listeners. That Truett was more interested in the business growing people than he was people growing the business. And that's how his business grew. So let me say that again. Truett was more interested in the business growing people versus people growing the business. That's how the business grew. [00:07:44]
And here's what I mean by that. That night, I would have run through a brick wall for Truett Cathy. Because he was interested in me and because he was for me, I wanted to be even more for him and for Chick-fil-A and to prove that he could trust me even more because of his belief and interest in me as a human being.
I see that lost in the business world. I see that as a gigantic opportunity. If people in the business world will actually be interested in the people who work in the business, the people in the business will be for the business. It just seems so obvious and so simple, but it's so very rare. So when I experienced that, that here's the billionaire founder of Chick-fil-A asking me questions about me, I never got over that. That's why I opened the book with that story.
Laura Dugger: I can't wait for people to read your book. I hope that it is a catalyst for change to move in that direction. I've experienced Truett in the same way. I didn't know him nearly as well as you did. Only actually had the opportunity to meet him once in person. But we hear so many stories through Chick-fil-A. So one more while we're on the topic of him. [00:09:00]
Jeff Henderson: Sure.
Laura Dugger: He was married to Jeannette, his loving wife. And so at his funeral, if you can track with me, there's a woman who works at Chick-fil-A, her name's Anita Costello. I've always really admired her. And I remember her sharing this story that she was going through the line and just saying, "You have my sympathy" to Jeannette. And Jeanette said, "Okay, hi, what's your name? Okay, you work with Chick-fil-A. Do you enjoy your work here?
In the line before they're burying Truett, that's what his wife was asking the people. They cared so much individually for everyone there.
Jeff Henderson: Wow. That was Truett and Jeanette. I think that illustrates another lesson that I learned from them. And I think this is true for any organization to ask the people that work there: what does it feel like to work here? What does it feel like to work here? Because people, Laura, as you well know, when they leave the office, the feelings go with them and they show back up the next day. And sometimes we create organizations that are void of emotions. But they're there. They're just under the surface. So what does it feel like to work here? [00:10:08]
Laura Dugger: You have so many good, thought-provoking questions. What are some other takeaways that you want readers to learn after they read your book?
Jeff Henderson: Well, there's... I call it the core four. There's four groups of people that you need to be for as a business or church organization. The first is the customers. That seems so obvious. But really, if I could talk to business leaders, the spotlight and the focus on the business is sometimes so on the business, it excludes the customers in an ironic way.
I point this out to business leaders when I ask them to go to Instagram and count the last ten posts about what did they post. This is true for churches is that most of the time, nine out of ten or ten out of ten are all about the business.
And here's why this is important. If a business were a person, many businesses would be considered narcissists because it's all about them. "We're talking about us. We're so much better than our competition. Look at us. Look at us. Look at us." What we're trying to do is create raving fans. Totally understand that. Still think we need to do that. [00:11:08]
But here's how the game is changing. Thriving organizations in the future will understand that it's not about trying to create raving fans but about becoming a raving fan of the customer. That's where the game is going.
So a very practical suggestion on this, Laura, is that many organizations, many big brands forget the social and social media. It's not social media. It's just an electronic brochure. I was with a big multibillion-dollar brand the other day. I pulled up their Instagram. They had a post, they got 89 comments. Not a single one of them was liked or commented on from the organization.
I told them, I said, "If we came to your organization as a customer and asked you a question and you turned your back on me and didn't respond, you would be embarrassed by that and horrified that that was your reaction. You're doing that every single time you post because your customers are talking to you and you're not talking back." That's a huge mistake. The reason is, is the spotlight is all on the business and they're not focusing and talking to the customers. And that's just one small example. [00:12:11]
So what I try to share with businesses and churches is, and this is just one example, social media is an opportunity for you to get really personal and to tell customers you're actually paying attention to them, you're cheering them on, and you're noticing them.
I'll give you another quick example and then we'll move on. But a friend of mine recently said she works at this massive, huge, wonderful ministry. And she said, You know what? I'm a big Starbucks fan. I posted about being in a Starbucks and Starbucks commented back and said, 'Thank you so much for loving Starbucks.'" And she said, "I took a screenshot of that and sent that all to my friends."
I said, "Okay, two questions. How long ago was that?" She said, "A year and a half ago." I said, "Okay, a year and a half ago. You're still talking about it, aren't you?" I said, what other Starbucks post on Instagram did you take a screenshot of and send to your other friends? She said, "None."
So what happens in that moment is that Starbucks got really personal with one customer. And that leads to a principle that I've learned from Andy Stanley. This is something I've learned from North Point. [00:13:12] Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone. Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone.
Starbucks can't comment on every post, but they can comment on some. And that one post, one of their customers is still talking and spreading the news and the word about Starbucks a year and a half later.
So that goes back to our two questions: that when what you want to be known for and Starbucks wants to be known as this local community brand, when that's what you're known for and somebody is telling someone else a year and a half later, Starbucks noticed me. They have now become positive word of mouth for you. They have become a sales force for free. So that's just one strategy for the customer. There's one for the team. There's one for the larger community. You need to have a bigger purpose than just towards your customers.
And then the final group is for you. The biggest gift that you can give customers, the team, and a larger purpose and community is an inspired you. So what we talk about in the book is, how can you be for those four groups of people? [00:14:12]
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is such a timely message. Clearly, you're a gifted communicator with all these stories and illustrations. You really drive home the point.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: But now getting really practical, you already had a very full schedule. So when did you make time to write this book?
Jeff Henderson: That's a great question. There's a principle, biblical principle, that's so encouraging and so helpful, especially if you're starting out on anything. And that is don't despise the days of humble beginnings. Don't despise the days of humble beginnings. [00:16:09]
So one of the things I learned years ago from a book called On Writing, Stephen King, is that he had a goal of writing 1,000 words a day, six days a week. That was it. And he said, amateurs wait on inspiration. The professionals get up and go hunt it down. And I thought, "That's really interesting." I said, "Well, I'm not obviously Stephen King, but what if I just wrote 500 words a day for five days a week? What would be the math on that that would get me to the word count goal that I would need to get?"
Because typically in something like this, you're like, "I've got to take three months off and go on vacation and just write, you know, be in a log cabin and be inspired and do all that. But I don't have the luxury of that because I have a job that I love here at Gwinnett Church. Things are growing and I've got a family and all that. I can't take three months off to write a book.
So that's what I did, Laura. I just wrote 500 words a day for five days a week. Some days I would check the word count every five minutes and it was like I've gone two words now. [00:17:09] Some days were terrible, just awful struggle.
And that's what Stephen King said. Some days you're going to really struggle to get to your word count goal. But he said there could be other days when you're sitting there working and inspiration is going to show up and you're going to go from 500 words to 3,000. And that's what I discovered. So I gave myself the permission to write bad. Don't edit along the way and then come back and edit during the process, a later process.
There's another book called The War of Art, not a Christian book. Just want to warn everybody. Stephen Pressfield. But Stephen Pressfield said, When you show up and put something on a screen or write something on a piece of paper, you win. It doesn't have to be good. You win when you push against the resistance. So what I discovered is if I did the math correctly, I would need to do that 80 days for five days. And that's what that would get me to my word count goal. That's what happened.
The other thing that I've learned from a friend of mine, [Carrie Newhall?], Carrie says, "Do what you're best at when you're at your best. Do what you're best at when you're at your best. So what I discovered about myself and know about myself is I'm more creative and better early in the morning than I am past noon or in the afternoon or evening. [00:18:18] So I did most of my writing early in the morning and the edits would come later in the day.
So for me, I would ask our listeners, when are you at your best? That for me was in the morning. So knowing I had a word count goal, knowing that I'm at my best when I'm in the morning, that's when I'm the most creative, was a huge help to me. And it took the pressure off. It took the pressure off because I know, hey, yeah, I'm writing this book and I'm only, you know, 500 or 5,000 words in. But don't panic. Just get up and write 500 words today and then get up tomorrow and do 500 words tomorrow. You're going to get there because you've already done the math.
For me those small bite-sized pieces it's not just true for a book. It's really true for anything in life: Parenting, saving financially. That consistency over time really leads to benefits.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. Do you have any other routines or habits to reach some of your goals?
Jeff Henderson: I do. I have. We talked a little bit about this at our last podcast. [00:19:20] I have a weekly focus document that I look at rather frequently. But the other thing that I was taught by a friend of mine is a great day begins the night before. So a great day begins the night before.
In fact, from a biblical standpoint, it's really... I think we have it backwards in our Western culture. We think the day starts in the morning. Actually, the day starts at sundown. That's when the day starts. So his advice to me is, hey, before you go to bed at night, write down three ways that tomorrow will be a win. So before you go to sleep, you already know how tomorrow is going to win. He goes, subconsciously, it's going to help you as you're sleeping, as you get up and know what I've got to do to make this day a win.
So a great day begins the night before. I'm telling you, if your listeners would just try this for five days, just five days. Write three things down before you go to sleep that will make tomorrow, the next day a big win. It doesn't have to be, you know, going to go on a vacation. It could be "I'm going to write a note of encouragement to my kids. I'm going to work on that project for 30 minutes and I'm going to do something about our finances." I'm just making this up. If you just do that, you'll hit the ground already knowing where you should go. [00:20:37]
So a great day begins the night before. That's not just a wisdom principle. It's a biblical principle. It's how really God created the world. So I would just say that's a really helpful principle to lean into.
Laura Dugger: Well, and if listeners would only be willing to change one thing about their daily routine today, is that where you would advise them to begin?
Jeff Henderson: I would because I think it's going to put your mind at ease. I think it'll actually help you get better sleep. You know, before we go to sleep, if we're not careful, we can think about everything that went wrong or all the stress, all that. And we struggle going to sleep. But if we can put our mind in a more positive direction, that's going to help us not only in the day that's about to arrive. It's going to help us sleep better.
A tired, exhausted you is just not going to perform better over time than a rested you. And I know we have listeners who have young kids who are like, "Jeff, I wish I could get sleep." I totally understand that. Trust me, it's a season. We're going to get through this. [00:21:36] But overall, if you can get more rest, I think it's going to be helpful. And this principle helps you actually sleep better. If you don't believe me, try it out for five days.
Laura Dugger: More patrons have joined the club recently, and we are so grateful. When you pledge five dollars per month to support The Savvy Sauce through Patreon, you're going to automatically unlock 12 additional incredible episodes and five downloadable scripture cards. And these goodies just keep appearing each month.
If you join before November 1st, we have an extra special surprise for you. We hope you consider joining today. Visit thesavvysauce.com, click on our "patron" tab, and then click "Join patron here". We appreciate your support.
What is something you're learning right now?
Jeff Henderson: One of the things we're learning right now, we're in the early stages of empty nesting. What is that like? I mean, don't tell my kids this, but we're loving this. And it's great because we need to have a little bit more extra time. [00:22:35]
But we're also learning how to leverage the time when Jesse comes home from college to make sure... How do we go? We went from a family of four to a family of three when Jesse went to college. So how do we parent Cole a little bit differently? And now he's driving now. So we're trying to figure all that out. So we're learning the role of empty nesting and we're enjoying it. But we also love when the family gets back together.
The other thing I'm learning here at Gwinnett Church is we are about to open up a second location. So I'm going to be lead pastor over both locations for a season. So what I've had to ask myself is what do I need to stop doing in order to be able to take on two campuses? Because I've got to grow and be a better leader. But to do that, I'm going to have to stop doing some things and delegate some things to other leaders around here. So trying to figure out that list of what do I need to stop doing in order to maximize and leverage this new season for me? [00:23:36]
Then the other thing I'm trying to do, Laura, is just trying to keep up pace with technology. Actually, my daughter is teaching me to be better in terms of Instagram design, in terms of photographs. The other thing I love about this is just spending some time with my daughter. And she's training me. I think she's loving that.
So I'm trying to stay up to speed with technology, which I would concur with everyone that that's an impossible goal. So I want to have one thing that I'm doing that will help me learn. So we downloaded an Instagram app and she's helping me kind of get a little bit better, a lot better about photo design on Instagram.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. I know that you often bring up thought-provoking questions. So what are a few questions that listeners can start asking themselves today to take a step toward their own growth?
Jeff Henderson: I would take the two questions we started with, we put it in kind of an organizational or business or church context. What do you want to be known for? What are you known for? I would take those two questions and I would apply them to you personally. What do you want to be known for and what are you known for? [00:24:41]
Those are two powerful questions. They're challenging questions. We've talked about Truett Cathy, Truett's life versus a good name is better than great riches. So he wanted to make sure that he had a good name. I think that's great. We have a brand. It's called You. I know we don't like to think of ourselves as a brand, but we all have a personal brand. Okay? And we also carry an emotional climate around with us.
I did a sermon series not too long ago at our church called Climate Change. Basically what I meant by that is you have a climate and that climate follows you into the conference room, that climate follows you into the dinner table, that climate follows you into your relationships. But many times we don't know what the climate is.
Our creative team created this video where people walked into a meeting, Laura, and they all had these weather symbols on top of their heads. There was one person that walked in that, had a storm cloud over their head, and everybody knew to stay away from that person because she wasn't having a great day that day. [00:25:42]
What that illustrated, though, is that everyone around the table knew to stay away from that person, but her she wasn't aware of what her storm cloud, her climate was communicating to everyone in the room. That leads me to another question, which is this one. It's a very challenging question. But I would encourage everyone to ask three people in your life this question. And that is: what's it like to be on the other side of me? What's it like to be on the other side of me?
The reality for you and me, Laura, and all of our listeners, we don't know what it's like to be on the other side of us because we've never been there. And when you ask that question, you're going to get three pieces of information. The first piece of information, you're going to get some encouraging information about you. The second is you're going to get some surprising information about you. And the third is you're going to get your feelings hurt. As a result of this, it's going to take some courage for you and me to ask that question.
But here's what happens. And this is so important to understand. [00:26:43] If we don't have the courage to ask that question, it doesn't mean the information goes away. It's still there. We just don't have the courage to access the information. And in that moment, what happens is, is a person puts a lid on top of his or her potential. Because many times it's not the smart, hard skills, if you will, the intelligence, the SAT scores that hold us back. It's really the emotional intelligence, the soft skills or the lack thereof that is the biggest thing that holds people back. I've seen that in the business world. I've seen that in the nonprofit world.
Soft skills rule the day. And those that have soft skills, emotional intelligence combined with real talent will succeed every single time over those who have very smart technical skills, but have a lack of emotional awareness of how they are coming across. So what's it like to be on the other side of me? And then those two questions, what do you want to be known for and what are you known for? You apply those to you personally, that's going to really help you, I think, take steps toward the person you want to be. [00:27:52]
Laura Dugger: Those are incredible. I wonder if listeners are feeling the same way I am. It just feels like a power mentoring session right now. So if they want to go one step further, where can listeners now find your book or connect with you online?
Jeff Henderson: I would love for them to go to jeffhenderson.com or the For company, forcompany.com. Both of those provide some free resources. But at jeffhenderson.com, you'll find a variety of free resources that are there for you just to get better, to improve, to kind of close the gap between those two questions.
Then they can just follow me on Instagram at @jeffhenderson. Anything that they can do to kind of spread the word on the book, I would be very, very appreciative of.
Laura Dugger: Awesome. Well, we will link to all of that in our show notes. Jeff, you may remember from last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight, or discernment. So we would all love to hear what is your savvy sauce? [00:28:55]
Jeff Henderson: Again, Laura, I told you this last time. This is such a great question. It's such a hard question because I hate to kind of boil it down to just one. But I'll go back to another thing my mentor, Steve Polk, told me. And he said, Jeff, leave things better than you found them. Leave things better than you found them. So you're here for a season and in every area of your life. So when you leave, whatever it is, leave things better.
Another way to put this is one of my life goals is to be found faithful. Jesus said, when I come back, am I going to find faith? And so if Jesus were to come back today, I would want Him to look at my life and say, Oh, wow, I found you faithful. That's awesome. But to do that, you have to leave things better than you found them.
So I wanted to leave Chick-fil-A better than I found it. I wanted to leave Buckhead Church better than I found it. And when I eventually leave Gwinnett Church, I want to leave Gwinnett Church better than I found it. And so having that principle and having a mindset of it's not about me, but it's about me being here to improve the organization and move it forward. [00:30:03] What did I do today to leave things better than when I found it? So that was something Steve Polk spoke into my life that I've never really forgotten. And goodness, that's been over three years ago.
Laura Dugger: Wow. It's just so inspiring just listening to you speak, for all of us to find a mentor. It sound like you've learned so much through your mentors. Thank you for mentoring all of us today. It's just been such a treasure time to get to stay under your teaching and your wisdom. I'm so excited for everybody to get their hand on this resource. So thanks for joining us today, Jeff.
Jeff Henderson: Laura, thanks for having me back for a second time. I look forward to doing this again sometime in the future. Thanks so much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:31:05]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:32:07]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:33:05]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 30, 2019
Monday Sep 30, 2019
76. Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 13:12 (NIV) “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.”
Dr. Jessica McCleese is a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist with special training in sex education from a Christian perspective. She is also a wife and a lover of coffee, good books and travel. She is currently involved in a project with Dr. Rosenau, author of Celebration of Sex, to teach teens how to enjoy their friendships and dating relationships while holding to Christian convictions. Additionally, she serves on the advisory board at Millennials for Marriage- a group that aims to encourage millennials to be equipped for marriage.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Dr. Jessica McCleese’s Website
The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
Torn Asunder by David M. Carder & Duncan Jaenicke
Previous Episodes on The Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord:
Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: If you love to cook or know someone who does, then you should check out The Cookery, Inc. in Morton. Whether you're new to the culinary world or a pro just looking for some modern tips, they have the class for you. All their classes are taught by trained chefs and all classes finish with a gourmet meal. Visit them today at thecookeryinc.com. That's thecookeryinc.com.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Today I am thrilled to welcome back Dr. Jessica McCleese. She is a wife, licensed psychologist, certified sex therapist, and certified sexual educator. We are going to talk about what to do in seasons when marriage is not going well, such as ongoing high conflict, infidelity, and infertility. These are heavy topics, yet I hope that you feel supported if you're facing this right now in your marriage. [00:01:27]
Here's our chat.
Welcome back, Dr. McCleese.
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Thanks so much for having me again.
Laura Dugger: Well, we're thrilled that you could join us again. For those who missed our previous episode, would you mind telling us more about yourself?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am a licensed psychologist in the state of Virginia and I'm also a certified sex therapist. All that came about really I have a history of my own personal stories of sexual trauma and molestation and things like that. And those things really drove me to trying to seek a little bit of help.
What's funny is I actually had a roommate in college. We lived together for a year and I probably, if you took that whole year and all of the time we spoke, it probably didn't even equal more than an hour and a half, which is funny because I'm quite talkative now and I do it for a living. But that year that we had together, I probably didn't speak to her more than an hour and a half total.
She at one point had told me that I needed to get some counseling because clearly I had some issues. And I think she said it in a really nice and loving way. [00:02:27] But I had told her, "If you set it up, I'll go." And in my mind, I kind of thought she wouldn't care enough to set it up. So I thought I was kind of getting out of having to go. But she did set it up that day, came home, handed me a piece of paper, and said, "Well, here's your first appointment."
I went into that session, and I don't know what happened in the session. I guess it was God giving wisdom to my counselor. But within I don't know, maybe 10 minutes, it seemed like almost immediate, he asked me, or he told me, I think, "You've been sexually abused, haven't you?" And that's what started my process of healing and eventually me changing my degree plan. So I had started out going into youth ministry, and that changed my degree plan eventually to go into counseling when I realized how helpful it was.
So quite a journey there. But because of my own abuse in the past and because of just what I saw in family and friendship relationships, I really got a heart for marriage, and I really got a heart for wanting to help people in their sexual lives so that they can learn to be sexually whole.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for the vulnerability and sharing the true backstory. As a therapist, where do you begin when a couple does come in to see you and they've been experiencing a long season of high conflict? [00:03:35]
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I do work with a lot of couples. Probably about 80% of my caseload are couples that are coming in and most of the time it's high conflict. The reason I say most of the time is because for most couples, they actually don't seek any kind of counseling or therapy help until they've been trying for up to about five years and finding that whatever they're putting into place just simply isn't working.
Most of the people that come to see me are still committed to one another, but they're at a place where they actually don't feel like their marriage can be saved because they've tried for so long and they haven't seen any results.
One of the first things I do is I try to get a good history of the relationship. So I want to know how long a couple has dated, why they originally got together to begin with, what attracted them to one another. I like to look at ups and downs of their relationship. I'm basically getting a bird's-eye view of their entire history together.
So we'll talk about ups and downs, what have been the highlights, what have been the really painful places for you guys. And then we learn a little bit about conflict resolution together. So I'll ask them, what does it look like when you guys argue? Who takes the lead in asking for forgiveness or reconciliation? [00:04:41]
So I'm looking for behavioral patterns that the couple has with one another. And so we'll look through those different stages of the relationship and see when it's been probably at the easiest and when it's been at the hardest. Look for anything that they can hold onto as positives also during the relationship.
So if a couple's going to stay together, like I said, it could be up to five years before they come in to seek professional counseling, and so if they've stayed together through high conflict, they obviously want to stay together. There's something that says we should continue this, even if it's really hard. So we look for those positive things of what's happening.
For some couples, it's simply that we parent well together, and that's all that they can offer me. For some couples, it might be, well, we both love Jesus, and He says you should stay together, so we're trying. And sometimes that's all they have is their faith background to stand on. For some couples it's "we get along well when we're alone, but if other people around, for some reason, the tension rises, and we just can't seem to stand each other."
So it just really depends. But we look for the positives that each person has. For some couples, I've had couples that have a lot of fun together, but they can't do anything serious. [00:05:44] So making decisions or having hard conversations doesn't work for them, but generally speaking, they enjoy one another. Some couples are heavily committed to one another but they actually don't enjoy each other at all.
And so it really depends on the starting place for each couple which can be different from one couple to the next. But we look for positives mainly and that's what helps us kind of hold on to something in the midst of figuring out how to problem-solve as well. So I have several techniques that I walk couples through once I see what their actual difficulty is that they're bringing to this session.
Laura Dugger: Let's go further into some of those techniques then. If one of those couples comes in to see you and they want to start moving in the right direction, how do you help them get on the right track?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am actually becoming a really big fan of something called the Enneagram. You can actually take a test online to see what your Enneagram type is. And it's a cheap test. It's only 12 bucks. So that's a really great place to start for a couple. [00:06:43]
This particular measure, it gives you somewhere around 10 pages of single-spaced text telling you about your personality. Someone asked me recently if it was similar to the Myers-Briggs, and I would say not really. Like, it does give you a type like the Myers-Briggs does, but it's got much more information that it's giving you.
What's unique about the Enneagram is it looks kind of at how our personalities affect us as far as what I would call our tendency to live in sin. We're all sinners, and so we have these things that we bring to our relationships because of our imperfections and because of our sin nature. The Enneagram kind of gives us a chance to look at what are those places that hold you the deepest and the darkest? What are those places where you're most prone to sin?
So, for instance, anger is a sin. Well, at least when we act in anger. Feeling anger is not a sin. But if we're yelling at one another and name-calling, that would be a sin. There are things like pride that can be very sinful for people. There can be arrogance. Things like that. [00:07:42] So what it does is it kind of looks at what your human nature brings to the equation.
And oftentimes when couples are in high conflict, it's because they're each bringing these things to the relationship that cause tension. And they don't need to, but they're bringing things that directly feel like an attack to their spouse. So what we try to look at is what those things are that feels like you're being attacked.
So often couples will tell you, no, you know, I don't think that my spouse is just out to get me or wants to make my life miserable. But in the way they describe conflict, it sounds like that's exactly what they feel. So there's this dissonance that rests within each individual in the couple where they say, no, I know you're not out to get me, but by golly, it feels like you're out to get me and you're always against me and you're not a team player.
So what we try to do is remove those things by figuring out what is that underlying personality feature in you that causes tension in your spouse. Once we learn those things, we can prayerfully start getting rid of some of those more negative features of ourselves. Because we all have it. We're born into sin and we live with a brokenness. [00:08:43]
So we have to constantly let Christ work in us. And in the midst of Him working in us, we have to kind of understand what our tendencies are that most often holds me captive. Because until you can figure that out and let Christ start working on you, you're not going to have a successful relationship. So that's a big piece, is the Enneagram.
Then I'm really big on personal responsibility. So any kind of fight or any kind of conflict that's happening in a couple, we each have our own personal responsibility that we're bringing to that relationship. So my couples that I work with learn quickly that as we're doing problem-solving, I keep going back to, Now hold on, what can you do differently? Not what you want your spouse to do differently. What can you do differently to make this a better situation?
So that's a big part of what my work is, is constantly helping people look at what they personally need to resolve in their own lives to have a stronger relationship with their spouse.
Laura Dugger: I love that. It's so empowering to each person because then they have a sense of control because they can work on themselves when you can't control the other person. [00:09:46] I love that you also mentioned the Enneagram. If anybody's curious, do you mind sharing your number with us?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. So I'm a 5. If you want to know more about a 5, you can actually read a book called The Road Back to You, and it'll help you. But I'm going to give you just kind of a little bit of an understanding of what that means.
One of the things that's big for me is I am a listener, which can be good. I mean, it helps me in the world of therapy. But also one of the more negative sides of that is it means it's hard for me to express my own needs at times because I'd rather just sit back and listen.
So, of course, that can cause an issue because it can cause resentment if I'm not careful about it because I want to know why people aren't asking what I need or I'm going to want to know why people aren't taking care of what I would consider the things that anybody should know that are important to me. So that can be an issue where it kind of, you know, can hurt me. So that's definitely a thing.
Probably one of the bigger ugly things is that I have a tendency to not want to involve others in my life to help take care of me. [00:10:46] That's something I've had to learn, especially in times of crisis, that I need other people, that I don't need to retreat and just try to do it all on my own.
So that's one of the things about a five also is we really think that we can just kind of do our own thing and not involve others. But the ugly side of that is we can think that of others also. We think others can do their own thing and take care of themselves. And so there's a push sometimes probably in the world of counseling where I might push people a little harder than I should have. "You can do this."
I try to make it always sound really encouraging, but that would be an area of weakness where I have to watch for it and make sure I'm not trying to push too hard for people, but really allowing them to work in their strength as well.
So this is one of the reasons why the Enneagram is helpful, because I can look at my own faults and learn to work on those with Christ's help to make them more of a strength, which, of course, sounds like a good interview question, right? So here's my weakness, but this is how I make it a strength. But that's really what the Enneagram is supposed to do, is to help you get to that place.
I like to sit back and watch people instead of be involved with people. [00:11:46] And so that obviously can be an issue. Something I had to learn early on in my marriage, how not to let that interfere with our relationship and our coming together. So it's things like that why I think the Enneagram is important.
There's way more features. Those are just a few I just threw out. But that's part of why I think it's helpful for couples to know their type, because they can see where they're hurting one another. But the idea behind that also is not to sit in this place of, well, I'm a five, so it's just who I am. But instead to say, Okay, I know this is a weakness of mine, and I know this is something that can impact us negatively. So since that's the case, I need to come a little closer and work on those things so that I can have a relationship with you."
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Thank you for sharing.
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure.
Laura Dugger: What is some common homework that you suggest for your clients as they do pursue healthy conflict resolution?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: I always recommend a date night once a week. That's just an absolute necessity. I have plenty of couples that tell me that they don't have time for date night. But I constantly say, We got to do that. We got to find time together. [00:12:50]
And when you're doing date night, you're not allowed to have any arguments. If something comes up you write it down on a piece of paper and you come back to that in another moment that we call "couch time". I'm going to explain that in a minute. But date night is just for date night.
So often when we're in conflict, we don't want to have our moments of letting those things go and that's part of how it builds, but we really need those moments just to connect as friends and be kind of lovers. That doesn't necessarily mean sex, but just being intimately connected with one another. So that's one part is date night where no conflict is allowed.
Then what I call "couch time" is where you sit down on the couch and you take maybe 20 minutes and you each note some things that need to be worked on in the relationship. and you come up with a way to work on it. So your conflict resolution is actually limited to certain times that you put together as this is when we're going to work on things.
Now, every couple has conflict from time to time, and as you learn to resolve it, you don't necessarily have to say, Okay, Thursday at five, we're going to have our conflict resolution session. You can resolve it then. But for couples that are in high conflict, I do say, let's hold all conflict aside and we address it at one time during the week. [00:13:59] And we limit that time. Because the idea is to not get you so engulfed in that that you can't live your life anymore.
Sometimes that means the only time we're going to address conflict is in the office for a few weeks until you guys gain some skills where you can do that on your own. So sometimes couples... that's what I'll tell them is let's just do the conflict resolution here in the office so that you guys will feel more comfortable with this piece.
Laura Dugger: That's such a practical application. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: What encouragement do you have for couples who have experienced infidelity?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Gosh, that's such a big one. I would say probably one of my favorite resources for couples that have experienced infidelity is a book called Torn Asunder. That would be probably one of my top things I would tell couples, Grab that book, start reading through it, because there's just a whole world of things that couples need to work through when infidelity has been in their relationship. That's a really excellent resource.
One of the things that we need to do pretty quickly is... first of all, don't make big decisions in that first year. If you find out that your spouse has had an affair and you're thinking, Well, I don't know if I want to stay or not, I always tell couples, don't make a knee-jerk reaction here. So if you find out on a Friday night, my goodness, don't go to the attorney on Monday and start the divorce process. You need to give yourself time to actually really think about and process the situation. The knee-jerk reaction is oftentimes something that people want to jump into. [00:17:04]
As you start that process, look at the book Torn Asunder, look at going to a Christian counselor. But the big thing is we want to take an entire assessment of your relationship. The same thing that I would do with couples when it's heavy conflict resolution time and we need to look through those things, we're going to do the same thing in an affair.
We're going to look at, you know, what was your dating relationship like? What were the early years like? What has it been like since then? Highs and lows. And we're going to see what has happened in your relationship that caused you not to be safeguarded.
There's never been a couple get married and think, "Hey, you know, in a couple of years, I guess I'll have an affair. We'll work through that." It's just not expected when you get married. So instead, we have to look at what kind of came against you, what boundaries weren't in place that need to be in place.
Most couples never think we need to sit down and have a discussion about what we can and can't do as a couple. Most couples never think about how do we safeguard ourselves from an affair because most people just don't expect that's going to happen in their relationship. [00:18:02]
One of the things that couples have that have been through an affair that no other couple has is they realize how tender that can be and how much could come against them as a couple. And so they understand how to start setting boundaries. But really the best way to safeguard your relationship is to set those boundaries and figure out what feels comfortable and what doesn't and figure out how to have a healthy relationship long before anything comes against you where an affair has happened.
Laura Dugger: I love that point. Do you have any specific examples that come to mind of boundaries that your clients have put in place to help safeguard their own marriages?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Yeah. So you know what? Mike Pence, I don't know, gosh, quite some time ago, but there is an article out about him and some boundaries he had put in place. And I saw a lot of people talking about how weak he must be to put those boundaries up. They gave him all kinds of ugly names. But the reality is he and his wife had set up some pretty great boundaries.
Some of the boundaries that I think are helpful is just to really safeguard any relationships where you're talking to the opposite sex more often than you need to. [00:19:05] I know that's really ambiguous, but... let me put it this way. Let me give you some that me and my husband have, and maybe that'll help.
There's never been an affair in our history, but we just know we want to safeguard ourselves. And so some of the things we do is I'm not alone with another male, not to eat dinner, not to go out for coffee. Now, I've done some of that for marketing purposes, but when I do, I ask my husband first, I tell him where we're going to be, and we go out for just one hour to talk about how to pass business to one another, okay? And then I tell my husband about that.
So there are times when I do that from a business standpoint, and I know there are other people that have business relationships. Like attorneys, for instance, they're going to meet with people alone because that's what you do as an attorney. You don't broadcast your meetings. There are people in therapy offices like myself. I mean, I meet with the door closed in a therapy office. So I know that sometimes work interferes with that kind of a relationship. But you want to put into place where you're not spending time alone with somebody.
We think sometimes that if my relationship is good, I don't have to worry necessarily about a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. [00:20:05] But the truth is attraction starts because we spend a lot of time together. So attraction starts because we pass each other often and we start talking more often. Attraction starts because we develop a relationship or I'm telling you about my life and you're telling me about yours. So what we want to do is just safeguard that.
Then if you feel any attraction rising for somebody else... Again, that's part of our human nature. So if you feel attraction rising to somebody else to really have a sit down with a good close friend and maybe even your spouse to say, "Look, I'm finding myself attracted to this person. We need to not spend time with them."
That could even be if my husband and I have friends that are a couple friends of ours, we would have to spend less time with them if either one of us had an attraction to them. Now, we probably wouldn't tell the other couple, right, because we're not trying to start anything up. But really that honesty with one another of, hey, I'm human, I can be weak in my humanity, and there are times when I might feel attractions for other people.
Because feeling an attraction is not a sin at all. [00:21:04] That's just part of our human nature. That's how God created us, to notice one another. But acting on any attraction is a sin. I mean, simple actions, like just thinking about what it would be like to be with them, and not even a romantic sense, but what would it be like for my husband to be so and so instead of the one I have. That is a sinful interaction, because you're allowing yourself to start fantasizing about a relationship you're not supposed to have.
Laura Dugger: What about the couple that is walking through something like this? We would love to offer hope and encouragement to the couple listening right now that's in the midst of this struggle. So do you have any stories or examples of couples who are better off after working through this in their own marriage?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Oh goodness, yes. So what's interesting is if you survey couples, like if you survey a thousand couples, couples that have worked through an affair and gotten to the other side are going to report higher levels of happiness than couples that have never been through an affair.
John Gottman has talked about this too. He kind of laughs and says but this is no reason to have an affair. [00:22:05] And it's true. But what happens with couples that have been through an affair is they have to face reality that the relationship is really tender and that it could be broken.
And in that time of facing reality, they start looking at their entire history of where have we hurt one another? Where have our weaknesses been? Where have I not asked for forgiveness for places I've done wrong to you? Where do I need reconciliation? What boundaries do I need to feel safe?
There's a lot of stuff they work on where all of a sudden they're in a place where they can say, you know what, I feel completely safe with you because I know that you're going to do me right. I know that I can come to you and tell you when I have an issue or a problem. So they're at a place that a lot of couples sadly never get because many couples never realize the deep need for those conversations.
So, couples that are working through an affair or think, Gosh, I don't know if my relationship can be healed because we had an affair, my heart's cry is that those couples would seek out Christian counseling and start working through that process. Because the truth is couples that have been through an affair and will seek recovery, they really do well if they'll go through that process. [00:23:09]
Laura Dugger: That is really encouraging. You guys, you seriously do not want to miss out on our patron guest from September, Tracey LeGrand. She's a returning guest, but this episode is available to paying patrons only. She teaches us more about the science of female orgasm, shares how couples can enjoy a more pleasure-filled sex life, and she brings some scripture to life in a new way I've never considered.
Please don't miss out. Pledge $5 today and receive this episode and many others when you visit thesavvysauce.com and click on our Patreon tab, then click "Join Patreon here". If you join before November 1st, you're going to receive an extra surprise. We know you're gonna love it.
Another difficult part of marriage can come in when couples experience infertility. What ways have you witnessed this affecting a marriage?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: That's actually an area that my husband and I struggled with as well. I write about that on my blog. There's a lot of areas where that can impact the marriage pretty negatively. [00:24:12] So couples that experience infertility, if they're trying really hard to time intercourse and make sure that they can get pregnant, one of the big struggles they can have is all of a sudden any kind of sexual interaction feels a little forced.
It feels like, well, you've got to wait until we're fertile, so let's not have sex tonight, even though we both want to. Then it might be the next night, "Hey, I know we're both really tired, but we got to do this." So it becomes almost a checklist task. That's one of the ways that it can really hurt couples.
Another is just the shared grief. When we're grieving in our relationships because something horrible has happened in our lives, we just have a hard time connecting. So some couples will find that those areas of grief help them to connect in a greater way than they ever have before. But sometimes it actually becomes kind of a wedge. And when it becomes a wedge within the couple where they each struggle to connect or to kind of let each other in emotionally, then you're going to see more difficulties in the relationship.
For infertility, you're kind of going through the grieving process every month. And especially if for some reason a woman's period is a little late, [00:25:16] and then she starts, there can be that grief of "I really thought that this was the month. I really thought we were going to make this big announcement. This is horribly depressing."
And for men, it can feel that way too. That constant "I'm watching my wife here go through these horrible struggles. I'm going through them myself. How can I be the protector and take care of her when I can't even take care of my own emotional side? So it just kind of becomes a lot of upheaval and emotional discomfort during those times.
Those are the two ways I would say. So difficulty with the intimacy and difficulty because of the emotions that can impact a couple pretty negatively.
Laura Dugger: And as you talk about coming together in grief, what if both of those spouses process their grief very differently? Let's just say one doesn't like to talk about it and one needs to verbally process, how would you coach them?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: In those cases, I would say it's a good time to really hang on to your same-sex friendships. For instance, I'm definitely more verbal than my husband. Now, that doesn't mean that he doesn't talk to me. He does. [00:26:19] But if we look at how many words we each need, I need far more than he does. So we process a little differently. He's more internal. I'm probably a little more external in my need for processing.
So some of the ways for couples, if they're doing that, or if they have that kind of a connection where one is more verbal and one is more "I need time to myself," I would encourage them, for the one that's more verbal, to really have a good set of close same-sex friends where you can process a lot of those emotions and what's going on so that when you go to your spouse, you have more of like the condensed Reader's Digest version of maybe two to three sentences instead of two hours of emoting.
That's not wrong to do with your friends, right? So that's a good thing. And it's not wrong with your spouse to be in a place where you can connect with them more fully because you're on kind of a same level playing field there.
Then for the person who likes to process more internally, even though it's not maybe your preferred way of doing things, I would say for that person to make sure that you're pushing yourself to talk about what's going on, even if that means that you need to write it out at first, or even if you need to sit for an hour and think, okay, what are my big emotions for this particular situation, and then bring that to your spouse. [00:27:31]
Because really both of you do need to still connect emotionally and connect heart-to-heart by talking to one another. But when you both just do it differently, it is okay to seek some outside friendships before having those conversations with your spouse.
Laura Dugger: This is so helpful. While we're on this topic, it's unique because it can also affect friendship. So what helpful tips do you have for people on both sides of this equation, both the couple facing infertility and they're friends of that couple, especially if they have children?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: My husband and I have missed a few kids' birthday parties because we've had times, you know, where we just couldn't do it. We couldn't hang out with friends, even though we love our friends, because it was incredibly painful.
So I would say if you're going through infertility, and really my husband and I now are at a place where we're beyond the really deep difficulties of it, so we're at the place we can go to the kids' birthday parties, we can celebrate with our friends. We're good there. There's still a tenderness where we would like to have our own biological children one day, and then probably adoption is actually what we'll do. [00:28:34]
But even with that, we've crossed the bridge where we can actually connect more. But in those places where we couldn't, and what I believe is helpful for other couples, is to just really know where you're at. And so if you're at a place where you just can't connect right now to someone because they have kids running around and it's really heavy for you, like especially if you're at that place where you thought it was happening this month and then you realize it's not, don't go to the birthday party. It's okay. Skip it out.
Hopefully, your friends are in a place where they can understand, where you can let them know, Hey, I love you and I want to celebrate with you, but today is a hard day and I need some space. My hope would be that you'd be able to let your friends know that and they'd be able to sit with you in that place and be okay with it. But I would say, know yourself, first of all. Know where your emotions are.
Then for friends of people that are going through infertility, I have heard everything from, God opens and closes the womb, so let's pray, as if, you know, my husband and I had never thought to pray about it. I've heard people give us advice about how often we need to have sex, which is really weird to tell your friends and start asking about those things. People don't typically ask about frequency in your marriage. So I would say stay away from those questions. [00:29:39]
I've heard a lot of people talk about, Hey, if you just read this book, or I have a friend that that happened to, and then they adopted and then they got pregnant. So people try to offer all this advice when in reality, if you're a friend of somebody who's having infertility issues, I would encourage you just sit with them. Just sit with them and say, Man, you're right, this is hard. Gosh, I hate that you're going through this. Can I pray for you? Can I hug on you? Like I would say, sit in that place where you can just be with your friend and let them grieve.
It's just not fun to be sitting in grief and then people give you all their problem-solving ways of how one day it might be better Or I've had people pray and say, "Oh, no, I know it's gonna happen. God has shown me. "Well, the reality is sometimes it doesn't happen for people. Sometimes people never have kids. And that's okay. They can still have a very good life without having their own children. But in the midst of that they just need to know that they're loved and they're cared for and that even if that pain exists, they can still have a good life. So if you're in the place where you're trying to help your friends, what I would say is just love on them, be okay sitting in their grief with them. [00:30:43]
Laura Dugger: Wow, you've just been so incredibly helpful today. There's so much more that we could cover on all of these topics. But if listeners do want to connect with you further, whether that's scheduling an appointment or reading your blog, where can they find you?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. Sure. You can go to BeFullyWell.com, and that is B like the word, B-E. So BeFullyWell.com, and you can find all of my information on there. Social media sites are listed there, my articles are listed there, and even contact information is listed at the top and the bottom of the page where you can connect right away with me.
Laura Dugger: We've covered quite a few deep and heavier topics, and I like to end with a playful question. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" means practical knowledge. So Dr. McCleese, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Jessica McCleese: My website kind of tells you "be fully well". I'm a big fan of looking at the entire system. So even if you were to come to counseling with me because you have conflict in your relationship, I'm gonna want to know from a physical standpoint if you're taking care of yourself, I'm gonna want to know emotionally speaking if you're giving yourself time to care for your soul. And spiritually, I'm gonna wonder how you're doing. So I don't limit it just to the relationship. [00:32:00]
So I would say look at all four areas of your life. So physical, that's diet and exercise, right? So diet and exercise, mood-wise, that's the place emotionally, how am I functioning? Relationally, how do I look at my relationships with others? Not just with your spouse, but with others, how do I function? And then spiritually, Are there things that I used to enjoy doing with God that I don't do anymore? So have I broken away from some of my spiritual roots?
We want to look at each of those areas and see which one is the lowest functioning right now, which one needs the most care? Then I would say hit that one for a little while, even if it's just a week or two where you really look at what can I do differently in this area. So we'll just go with spirituality. So maybe you know, I am just not quite where I want to be spiritually speaking, then I would say take a couple of weeks and really figure out how can I start making sure I'm doing a devotional in the morning.
What day can I put aside where maybe I have an hour during that day where I can really just focus on loving God and maybe getting back to the basics of some of my scripture reading, or spending some time in prayer, or even just listening to some worship music? Then you would do that with each area of your life and see what's the one that I need to work on this week, and then what's one thing I can do to work on that. So not all at once, that's way overwhelming, but just one piece of that, what should I do this week? [00:33:18]
Laura Dugger: You articulate things so well, and you've just given us extremely practical tips to apply today. Thank you so much for sharing all of your help and hope for everyone listening today.
Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure thing. Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:34:18]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:22]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:22]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Tuesday Sep 24, 2019
Tuesday Sep 24, 2019
*DISCLAIMER* There is a brief part of this message that is not intended for little ears.
75. Responding to God’s Stirring with Elizabeth Pehrson, Founder of The Exchange
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 5:15-16 (AMP) “Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.”
Elizabeth Pehrson wants to live in a world where her children pick up after themselves without being asked, a short order cook shows up every night to make dinner and laundry folds itself. As a mom of eight children - ages 19,18,17,15,14,13,11 and 8, she thrives on coffee and chaos and she is energized by people. She is married to her best friend, David, also known as the most patient man in the world! She loves investing in women. When she is not taking care of her small army, her flock of chickens and her two dogs, you can find her fishing on a lake. Elizabeth is founder of The Exchange, which is a monthly gathering that seeks to inspire women to live on purpose and with intention. You can reach her at empehrson@gmail.com.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
The Best Yes by Lysa TerKeurst
Draw the Circle: 40 Day Devotional by Mark Batterson
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Previous episodes with Dr. Michael Sytsma:
10 Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview
Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Do you have a teething baby? Our sponsor today can help. Chew Beads is the original teething jewelry brand for all your baby's teething needs and beyond. Mommy chic and baby safe. Visit them at ChewBeads.com.
Have you been looking for creative ways to invest in your relationship with your spouse and with your family? You can do this from your home with zero preparation with Night In Boxes. For more information, visit nightinboxes.com.
I just want to let you know that there's a portion of this message that contains topics that are not suitable for little ears. Please use discretion when you listen.
Welcome back to part two with Elizabeth Pehrson, who is a loving wife to David, devoted mother to eight kids, and founder of The Exchange in Atlanta, Georgia. And now, we're going to pick up where we left off from our conversation yesterday. [00:01:20]
Here's our chat.
You've already mentioned you had plenty on your plate, but you still sense this stirring from God that there was something else He was calling you to do. You didn't know what it was at first. So will you just take us back through that journey?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. About five years ago, I felt that God was asking something of me, that He wanted me to do something. And I just didn't know what it was. So I literally taped the word IT, you know, I-T to my closet wall, and I started praying for it.
I prayed for almost a year and a half. And after about that time, God showed me what it was. I will never forget, I was scrolling Facebook in the carpool line, and I came across a women's event in Franklin, Tennessee, and literally the hair on the back of my neck stood up. And I was like, "I know what it is. That's it."
Basically, I was to create a place for women to just come as you are, explore a different topic each month, we use that to enrich our minds, and then ultimately engage it in the next best step of our lives, whatever that might look like. [00:02:20]
We called it The Exchange because my original hope and vision was that we could sit much like we are here, you know, exchanging ideas and talking and learning and growing from one another. Just like iron sharpens iron, we can sharpen each other.
But really I wanted this to be for all women: Unchurched, churched, faith, no faith, married, single, divorced, kids, no kids, the whole gamut. All are welcome was kind of my mantra and my mindset. Many women, I believe, live their lives stuck on Groundhog's Day, doing the same thing day in and day out. You get up, you have your routine. Next thing you know, you're going to bed at night and you're thinking, what did I even do today? It's just like rote activities and tasks. I really see that it's so easy to do. I find myself doing it unless I'm intentional with my living and my days.
But we just wanted to offer a place for women to come and get filled up. I am a big believer that you can't give what you don't have. So I wanted women to be filled up. I want them to feel loved and I want to inspire women to live on purpose and with intention. [00:03:18]
So I created an event on Facebook. Just "I'm gonna throw it out there and see how many would come." This was in January 1st of 2015. And it was gonna be three weeks later for January 21st that night. And wouldn't you know we had lots of interest and excitement around it but that day we had an ice storm, a sleep storm and school was canceled and power was out. And I just thought, well, that's just like the devil. We're gonna have nobody show up. And I can't believe it."
But we decided that we were gonna go on with the night because it was what we were going to do. And I'll never forget it. We were discussing Brené Brown's The Power of Vulnerability, her Ted Talk and my big hope, my big prayer was 30 women would show up even in the rain and it's late in the snow, and 125 women showed up that night.
Laura Dugger: Wow. They didn't care about the weather.
Elizabeth Pehrson: No, it just showed me how hungry women are just for that connection and for something more.
Laura Dugger: So that was the beginning of 2015. So where is The Exchange now?
Elizabeth Pehrson: We have really grown. The cool thing is that we've outgrown four locations and we are now meeting in Lanier Tech Conference Center, which is just right down the road from my house. [00:04:24] We meet the third Thursday of every month and then we take the summers off. There's usually around 150 to 200 women, some more, some less, just depends on the topic and the night, the time of season, year.
But we have food and drinks and people come and just talk and mingle and get to know each other from about 7:00 to 7:30. Then we have an incredibly funny host. that opens up with games or giveaways or just something fun and entertaining. It usually has something to do with the topic or the content of the night. She's hysterical.
And then after that, I either offer some cliff notes from other people's books or material like I did with the Brené Brown Power of Vulnerability TED Talk. I just call myself the cliff note speaker. I read a couple of books and then I just offer it and present it on that because I realize there's nothing new under the sun. Most women don't have the time or make the time to read, and so this is just a cliffnote version of whatever that book, that material is.
Sometimes we'll bring in a special guest speaker to do a discussion-style interview, but not all the time. But sometimes. But it's super fun.
Laura Dugger: Okay. So you said some women don't have the time to read all of these. You have a very full plate. How do you actually find the time to read these resources? [00:05:31]
Elizabeth Pehrson: Well, as part of getting up early, I can't read at night, I fall asleep. People think, Oh, you just love to read. I really don't. I don't like to sit still. Like I'd love to listen to a book on audio, but then I can't take notes. And so it's been a learned thing for me and to really carve out that time and make the time, make it a priority. Because the truth of the matter is we can all spend time on what we want to spend time if we prioritize it right.
Laura Dugger: And so you found it beneficial enough to overcome [inaudible 00:05:56]?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the pros always outweigh the cons. And anything worthwhile is going to be hard. You know, anything. Whether it's diet, exercise, a budget, like any of it, it's going to be hard, but it's so worthwhile.
Laura Dugger: Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors.
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Shop online at ChewBeads.com and enter the code SAVVY at checkout to enjoy 15% off your order today. Again, that's ChewBeads.com and enter the code SAVVY at checkout and then you get 15% off your order today. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Sponsor: We want to say thank you to our sponsor, Night In Boxes. They do all the work and research fun activities and then ship you a box each month so that you can invest in your most meaningful relationships. Each Date Night In Box includes interactive activities with ambiance and a tasty treat to bring couples together in meaningful ways. [00:07:36] For families who order a Night In Box, You will also receive a box with interactive activities and a tasty treat all centered around life lessons.
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Laura Dugger: Going back to The Exchange, how have you seen it cause life change in the other women?
Elizabeth Pehrson: You know, if we didn't see any growth or any movement, we wouldn't keep doing what we're doing. But it's hard, too, at the same time, because in a large group like that, it's hard to engage with each woman that comes in the door. [00:08:40] Some come two or three times and don't come back, and some come all the time, but I don't know many of them.
So it's hard because I only hear the stories of people that I either know or maybe somebody that emails me. It might be a stranger that emails me or a friend of a friend. But it's really hard to measure. For example, we did a topic on forgiveness and it was the neatest thing. We saw friendships restored. We were able to see marriages healed.
We did one on the best yes, and we had women for the first time in their life hearing, you know, it's okay to say no. You don't have to say yes to everything. Or hey you know what, you always say no, but if this is your best yes, we want to encourage you to step outside your comfort zone and say yes.
Women have gone back to work, some women have quit their jobs to be with their family because for that season it was their best yes. I don't ever give them their answers. I just say, Hey, whatever's the next best step for you to engage in your life.
We've had some women pursue their dreams. We did one on The Greatest Showman where we explored who are we from that song, This Is Me. It was really eye-opening to me because, believe it or not, most women don't know who they are. [00:09:44] And the exploration of who we are created to be is a win enough for me. It's so rewarding every time that one person comes up and just shares something that's really change their life.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I'm sure that this is difficult to condense down, but can you think back to The Exchange, think about three examples of topics that you've covered, and then just share maybe one or two takeaways that we can be encouraged by from each of those topics that you've covered in the past?
Elizabeth Pehrson: I would love to do that. If it's okay with you, I'll kind of do it almost like a mini exchange, just a glimpse of what we do. It's super interesting. Our two most attended events so far have been on friendship, adult friendship, and sex. You know, go figure on that one.
But our least attended event, which I personally feel like had the most practical wisdom and content of all of our events, was one that we did and titled Ask It. Those are the three that I would like to touch on if that's okay with you.
To go to the adult friendship one, you know, right off the bat, we all know that adult friendships are hard. It seems impossible to be friends with people who hurt us. [00:10:46] But the problem is there are no other kinds of people because we're all human. I think this is why so many people showed up that night.
We explored Shasta Nelson's book, Frientimacy. Basically, frientimacy is a combination of friendship and intimacy. And she offers such great insight and a very fresh new perspective on friendship. She talks a lot about how women are lonely. And she said, many women don't want to admit that they're lonely because they feel like, oh my goodness, there's something wrong with me.
She said, no, no, no, no, no, that's not it. Loneliness simply means that we have the capacity for more connection. And I love that definition because instantly everyone lets down their guard and go, okay, I'm normal. It's okay. Yes, I do have more capacity for connection.
We learned and studied that night that meaningful friendships aren't found. We sometimes think that you fall into them or we stumble upon them, but really they're developed. We talked about the five circles of friendship, and I didn't even know there was such a thing, but it is so accurate.
And so I wanted to quickly go over those five things because they're super helpful. She says there's five circles, five rings of friendship. The first ring is contact friends. [00:11:48] And you think about people that you're linked to by something in common, like the same church, same team, same school, the ones you tend to sit by at the ballpark on the bleachers, you come in contact with them quite a bit.
The second group of friends, the second circle is common friends. You're linked by something in common, but you're intentional about getting together with them. Book club, small group, you know, a mom's group, you make time, you're very intentional to be with your common friends.
Then the third circle of friendship is confirmed friends. We're close, but we don't see each other as often as we did. We're not in regular contact. These might be friends from high school or college that you can pick up right where you left off. You're still close, but you're confirmed friends, but you just don't see each other on a regular basis.
Then the fourth circle is community friends. You have regular time together. You may have met at work, but now all of a sudden you're making time to get together with them outside of work, even though you no longer work there anymore. So those are community friends that you really spend and choose to spend a lot of time with. [00:12:45]
Then the last one, it's the circle five, is committed friends. You're intimately involved with them. You know the details of their lives. You can call them at three in the morning. You can call them in a crisis. Those are your committed friends.
And she says, we need friends in all of the areas. There's value in all of the circles. I'd really never thought about, you know, friendship in light of circles or in the way she described it, but it was so eye-opening in just to learn about friendships. It was like, it's okay to be a two friend. It's okay to be a five-friend with a smaller group of people.
The last thing I wanted to share regarding this topic is that she says, Frientimacy is any relationship where both people feel seen, they feel safe, and the relationship is satisfying. And the way you get there over time is with positivity, consistency, and with vulnerability. And that's what makes for a meaningful friendship. It was great material. If you have not read her book, Frientimacy, I highly, highly recommend it.
The second topic that I was going to talk about was let's talk about sex. [00:13:44] I grew up in a home where sex was not discussed at all. I grew up in a very strong Christian home and all I was told was I was not allowed to have it. And then I came home on my 12th birthday and there was a book on my bed that said, "Now that you're 12." And I had to read this book by myself. It was so awkward. There was no one to talk to or ask questions to or say, Hey, I don't understand this." I guess I was just supposed to have to figure it out on my own.
Then 14 years later, when I got married as a 26-year-old virgin, I now was suddenly allowed to have sex, you know, but I still had not had anyone to ask any questions to, and I wasn't allowed to talk about it because I had a southern belle of a mother who told me that ladies don't talk about such things.
So I decided that this was a very important, untalked-about topic. Media sells it, movies glamorize it, and most married people bash it. So we wanted to talk about it in a healthy, constructive way. And I am certainly no expert. So we brought in a local Christian sex therapist, Dr. Mike Sytsma. He is amazing. He's the only male that's ever been to The Exchange. [00:14:47]
At first I was a little nervous because women were thinking, you know, Oh, he's going to come in there like the stereotypical male and he's going to state that men need sex and we'd always better be willing to give it to them. And he could not have been any more different. He is like this great big giant teddy bear, you know, with the most tender heart towards women. He was so wonderful. We actually have had him back four or five times. I mean, he has been so great in different venues.
We gave women the opportunity to send in anonymous questions for him to answer, and we found that we really don't have a safe place to ask questions like this. Very few places are talking about it, and even fewer places offer a safe forum to get sound advice and counsel. You get the magazines that don't always necessarily say what we need to be hearing. So we felt like it was important to do that.
It's hard to share some things from that night because of the sensitivity to some of the people's questions. So we opted not to have our notes from the crowd on the website and the Facebook page. But we had links to articles and some books that he suggested. [00:15:46]
But I can tell you that night was so powerful. There were women crying. Women came up to me afterwards and just said, "I have never heard a man talk so lovingly about a woman before." It really broke my heart, actually. He just kept reiterating over and over and over again that we're to be cherished. He said, "We're worthy of love and affection in a way that is satisfying to both the husband and the wife. It's not like we just have to lie there and wait for our husbands to do whatever he wants. It's that we're worthy of that love and affection."
I remember him sharing the biggest turn on to our husbands is a turned-on wife. And that was like a light bulb that went off in so many heads. And you could hear the women gasp. And he said, No, it's true, women. He said, "You ladies, that's what men want, just to see you turned on." I've had countless women reach out to me saying that that night changed their marriage, it changed their sex life.
One girl said, "It's the first time that I had the right tools and the right words to be able to have important, hard conversations." You know, they're difficult and they're awkward with your husband, but she said, "That was the first time I ever had the right words and knew how to approach him and what to say." [00:16:50] And she said, "It was life-changing."
Laura Dugger: I think that's incredible that you were courageous enough to talk about that topic. Here at the Savvy Sauce, maybe if this is your first time listening, I want to recommend just going back. Dr. Michael Sytsma has been a returning guest on the podcast.
These topics specifically related to sexual intimacy have been our most popular episodes. And when one goes out, it airs around the world and people share it. So hopefully this can be a safe place where you can listen to these podcasts, maybe even listen together with your spouse, if you've never been to The Exchange or you haven't had this experience where you can put language to this and improve this area of marriage. But I just want to say thank you for covering that with The Exchange.
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. It is so worth the time for anyone that has any questions or concerns or angst surrounding sex in their marriage or whatever it might be. I'm so glad that he's been a guest because he is amazing.
Laura Dugger: Our team would love to know, has The Savvy Sauce benefited you in any way? Our hope is that your life is enriched just a little bit more after listening and applying lessons from each episode. [00:17:58] If you have enjoyed the podcast, would you show us your support by pledging $5 per month to become a patron? You will receive some awesome perks and your contribution will help us offset the production costs for The Savvy Sauce so we can still make the majority of our content free to the public.
We hope you consider partnering with us today. Just visit our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our Patreon tab. Thank you for your consideration.
Elizabeth Pehrson: The last one of the three that I wanted to talk about is one we entitled "Ask It". And this is one of my favorite topics because it's been the most impactful for me personally. Voltaire tells us that we can evaluate people by the questions they ask.
Do we ask ourselves questions like, if I knew I had limited time to live, how would I change how am I currently living? What do I really love to do? Am I doing it? What is my greatest strength? What is my greatest weakness? What are my blind spots? When did I not speak up and I should have? Who am I? [00:18:59]
To the depth we know ourselves is the degree and capacity we can know and give to others. And if we don't know who we really are, we can't really live out our purpose. So we explored Andy Stanley's book, Ask It. He calls it the question that will revolutionize how we make decisions. And he says, no one plans to mess up their life, but very few people plan not to. No one plans to end a marriage, to raise a codependent child, to fall into addiction, or get into credit card debt. But once it happens and we're there, we say, how in the world did I get here?
And so when we're making a decision and we ask the question, is there anything wrong with it? That's not the question we should be asking, he argues. It should be, is it the wise thing for me to do? And he argues, we need a reference point. We need to ask the right questions.
So the three questions he offers is, in light of my past experience, what's the wise thing for me to do? In light of my current circumstances, what is the wise thing for me to do? And in light of my future hopes and dreams, what is the wise thing for me to do? [00:20:01]
Time basically equals our lives. You can get more money, you can get more friends, but you cannot get more time. So what is the best way for me to invest my time? Because if we're not careful, we'll miss the opportunities to spend time doing what matters most.
That goes back to what we desire to do at The Exchange, to live on purpose and with intention. I know that was a lot, but that's basically my cliff notes to the cliff notes.
Laura Dugger: I love it. And it's so exciting just to get a little taste or sampling of what you cover in these meetings. I'm so curious, what is your vision for The Exchange in the future?
Elizabeth Pehrson: My vision for The Exchange is really just to keep doing what we're doing, which is to encourage women to live on purpose and with intention. You know, we found that when we become intentional in one area of our life, it often trickles into other areas.
For instance, if we're becoming more purposeful in our mental lives, we often become more aware of other areas that need attention, like maybe our physical lives. And then it often transfers into our emotional well-being or our spiritual lives. [00:21:01]
Personally, I would love to see some type of digital expansion or podcast or something so that those that don't live here can still be a part of what we're about. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I just want to keep doing what we're called to do and do it well until I feel like God shows us otherwise.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any encouragement for someone listening who's also feeling this call to do something right now, but they also don't know what their it is yet?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, yes. First of all, I just want to say you were not alone. I get it. I would say get still and find the time to be quiet. Just pray. Ask God to show you. He will do it. I'll tell you that. When I started on my journey, I went to the quietest place in my house, and that's my closet. And I woke up early and I would spend time in prayer, spend time in silence, spend time journaling.
When God's in something, you have enthusiasm within you. And that simply just means God within. And it won't be forced, you know, it's going to flow. I would encourage you not to get caught up in the end goal, because I really believe the goal is not the goal, but the process is the goal. [00:22:02]
One of the best books that I've ever read is Mark Batterson's Draw the Circle: The 40 Day Prayer Challenge. I devoured that book during that time, and it spoke to me unlike very few books have. I think I'm on maybe my sixth time reading it. And every time I would get to something new, I would strongly encourage anyone who was on this journey of following their calling to journal. Read that book and journal.
The stones of remembrance that I have throughout this process, for me, have been some of the most faith-building reminders to me and my journey and my growth and really just of God's faithfulness on every step of the journey. It's been a sweet encouragement to me to show me that God's in this. I'm not alone and neither is she.
Laura Dugger: I think you're a natural encourager. If somebody's listening and they want to find you online or learn more about The Exchange, where would you direct them?
Elizabeth Pehrson: We have a website, it's called TheExchangeUS.org. We also have a Facebook page and an Instagram page, both called The Exchange. There you can find what we're about, inspirational quotes, my blog, recap from past events. [00:23:04] We have another section called Notes from the Crowd. It's all right there, so I hope they go check it out.
Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to this in the show notes, as always, so it's easy to find. I have one final question for you today because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question, Elizabeth, what is your savvy sauce?
Elizabeth Pehrson: I would want to tell every parent, especially those with little children, stay consistent with your discipline. Stay consistent with your words. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't throw something out there as a punishment if you're not going to follow through.
You know, I think sometimes we get caught up and say things like, if you don't do such and such, we're all staying home from grandma's party tonight. Are we really going to all stay home from her party? Don't use a consequence that you can't follow through on or that you don't want to follow through on. Because our children need structure, grace-filled discipline, and they need us to be clear, concise, and consistent in our parenting and in our speech. [00:24:03]
You know, it's kind of like the rules of sailing. My dad taught me this. You might feel confined if you have to go by the sailor's rules, and you might not think it's fair when he tells you you have to do this or that, and you might not even understand the rules. Like, why in the world do I have to do that? But if you do follow the rules, you ultimately end up with the freedom of the seas.
I think in the same way, if you're diligently consistent in your younger years, your children will know that you mean what you say. And it's going to make your parenting teenager years so much easier. You'll have a lot less worrying, a lot more freedom, and enjoyment for both you and your children as they get older.
Laura Dugger: I love it, as I did all of your answers. Your energy is just so contagious. I really enjoyed this time together. So thanks for sharing with us.
Elizabeth Pehrson: Thank you for coming and being in my home. I've loved it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:25:10]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:26:12]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:27:11]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 23, 2019
Monday Sep 23, 2019
74. Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson
**Transcription Below**
Luke 5:15+16 “Yet the news about him spread all the more, so that crowds of people came to hear him and to be healed of their sicknesses. But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.”
Elizabeth Pehrson wants to live in a world where her children pick up after themselves without being asked, a short order cook shows up every night to make dinner and laundry folds itself. As a mom of eight children - ages 19,18,17,15,14,13,11 and 8, she thrives on coffee and chaos and she is energized by people. She is married to her best friend, David, also known as the most patient man in the world! She loves investing in women. When she is not taking care of her small army, her flock of chickens and her two dogs, you can find her fishing on a lake. Elizabeth is founder of The Exchange, which is a monthly gathering that seeks to inspire women to live on purpose and with intention. You can reach her at empehrson@gmail.com.
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription Below**
[00:00:00] <Music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <Music>
Laura Dugger: Do you have a teething baby? Our sponsor today can help. Chewbeads is the original teething jewelry brand for all your baby's teething needs and beyond. Mommy chic and baby safe. Visit them at chewbeads.com.
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[00:00:57] Elizabeth Pehrson is well known around Atlanta, Georgia for offering sound parenting advice based in biblical truth. I'm thrilled to have her join us today as our energetic guest. You will end this chat feeling empowered to apply savvy principles to your own family after she shares great tips for parents of toddlers to parents of adult children. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Pehrson: Thank you so much for having me. I cannot tell you how excited I am to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, can you just start us off by sharing a bit about your family and your life right now?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. My husband, David and I met on a blind date about 20 years ago. I ran into a friend of mine that I hadn't seen since the fifth grade at a wedding, and she said, "I have got to introduce you to my brother-in-law." And I said, "Well, tell me about him." And she said, "Oh, he lives in Atlanta." And I said, "Oh, no, I'm a small-town girl. No way."
And then she said, "Oh, I mean, he's a dentist." And I said, "Absolutely not." Like strike two I said, "Have you ever been to a dentist who like... you know, I don't ever like to go to the dentist." And she's like, "Well, he's 30." And I said, "30?" I was like 25. I was like, "That is ancient. Let's forget it."
And she hounded me and hounded me and hounded me until finally I just relented and I said, "Fine, I'll be in Atlanta. I'll meet him for lunch." But I didn't think it was gonna go anywhere. And I thought it'd be funny if I wore a set of fake teeth that were very, very, very unattractive to our first blind date and he thought it was hysterical. And I thought, "If he doesn't think it's funny, he's not for me anyway." And he thought it was so funny. We were engaged three months after that and married three months after that.
[00:02:28] And I can tell you this, it's been a whirlwind of a ride. We had eight children in our first 11 years of marriage. And it has been super fun ever since. We have one in college, three in high school, two in middle school, and one in...no way. And two in elementary school. I can't even keep it all straight.
So we have a total. We have four boys and four girls. We love Jesus. We love people. We love pouring into people, particularly with those with children, because we want them to live intentionally and we want them to live purposeful lives with their kids, because we believe personally that there's no greater responsibility than the raising of the next generation. We are just simply imperfect parents raising imperfect kids, you know, doing the best we can alongside everybody else. So that's us.
Laura Dugger: [00:03:13] Well, and that is always intriguing, I'm sure, when people hear you mention that you have eight children. So first, what do your logistics even look like at home?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Well, let me tell you this. First, people are very intrigued by this. You don't really realize it until you get it everywhere you go. They're particularly blown away at how close they are together. Like right now we have a 19, 18, 17, 15, 14, 13, 11, and almost 9-year-old.
In different seasons of our lives, people are curious I think for different reasons. So like when they were young, and I would walk into a grocery store with a five-year-old, a four-year-old, a three-year-old, a one-year-old, and a newborn, they would literally stare at me like I had robbed a daycare or something. They were like, what in the world? Like I have a third eyeball.
And their number one comment they would always say is, "Man, you have your hands full." And my kids have picked up on that at a very, very young age and they couldn't quite figure it out. But then as they got a little bit older, and then we had three in middle school and four in elementary school, people would want to know, Oh my goodness, how do you handle all the homework? Or how do you send in seven technologies to school or sharing...? How many computers do you have at home? Or just how do you keep the logistics straight?
And I feel like now with six teenagers, we're at a stage where everyone wants to know how in the world do you manage like cell phones, car insurance, paying for college, you know, things like that.
[00:04:34] So over the years, they've been intrigued for different reasons, with their ages. But I would say hands down the biggest thing logistically that has helped us in all of the stages, for sure, is being organized. We had to set that tone early on, like very early on our home. And that's that we're just not individuals, but we're a family. You know, we're a family unit and we have to be organized to the very best of our ability to make sure that everything runs smoothly.
But also and I'd say equally as important as setting that tone is that we have to be flexible because we have a lot of curveballs that come our way. The kids have to learn to roll with the punches, you know. Like, if the travel baseball game gets rain-delayed, and we're late to our next event, or if six of them have an event at the exact same time, not all of them are going to have a parent to take them to the event, or even watch the event at the very least.
But we want them to know from a very young age that they each have a very, very important role to play in our family unit. And it's a team effort. So we started really early on with daily chores. People always ask, how young can you start? And we start as early as three.
[00:05:39] I would tell you, you asked about logistics and I think about mom hacks, but hands down my biggest, biggest, most important mom hack is my whiteboard. I don't know if you saw it when you walked in, but it is my lifeline. And it's where I can delegate everything that needs to be done in the day and in the week to my children. It's what keeps things running smoothly in our house.
It has everything from all of our activities to things that have to get done as far as chores, to carpools, meals, birthdays. Anything and everything that has to happen in the week it's on that whiteboard. It's the very first thing that kids see when they walk in the door, and they know exactly what their chores are. And they know when they have to be done. I really don't think I could live without it or manage without it. That's my biggest mom hack.
Laura Dugger: [00:06:25] Well, in that organization, is that something that was a learned skill in you or is that a natural temperament or personality trait?
Elizabeth Pehrson: No, it isn't a natural thing. It is a learned thing where I've had to go before other people and I've had to say, "Hey, okay, it is out of my control now. I'm so far outnumbered, like, how can I do this and what makes the most sense?" And I learned even through the temperaments, which I'm sure you're familiar with, that I have a lot of blues in my home. And they like structure, and they like to see what's for dinner and they like to see what their chore is and they know before they go to school, or right away. That really just helps that child individually as well.
Laura Dugger: [00:06:59] Okay, so I'm sitting here in your beautiful home, and it's so clean and organized. So you said that you learned this over time. Do you have any tips for some mom who's just starting out and maybe she has kids close together and she wants to be more organized as well?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I would say start on the weekend with preparation. I mean, that's what we do. I'm gonna share a little bit about it more later. But we have a staff meeting on Sunday nights just to go through the week and see what has to get done. And I check in with each child and like, when are you working? When are you babysitting? Do you have any doctor's appointments? Do you have PT appointments that so many of my kids seem to have?
And I go ahead and get it organized and I plan it out for the whole week. Then based on that, I'll look and go, Okay, well, we have seven activities in the afternoon, so it's not the time to drill out. You know, we're not even going to be home. So that's going to be a crock pot meal day.
Or I'll look at the weather because we have nothing the next day and I'm thinking that Monday and is supposed to be 100% thunderstorm. So again, we're not going to grill out, but I can plan. Because then what would happen is you buy all this meat or you buy all this food and you plan to grill out, well then you can't do it for whatever reason. So it just saves time.
I go to the grocery store on Sunday, I hit all of the stores, and buy everything for the whole week so I don't have to go back until midweek. The only reason I go back midweek is because we drink 12 gallons of milk a week and I can't store that many. So I go midweek for more produce and milk. But it saves so much time throughout the week. And that hands down will keep you organized and keep things running smoothly.
Laura Dugger: [00:08:27] That's incredible. I'm still kind of stuck on the 12 gallons of milk per week. But with such a full house, did you strategically fit in time to enrich your marriage?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. We have certainly tried to do so anyway. We want to be married people first and parents second. And we realize that we're going to be together when the kids are grown and gone, so we want to make sure that we foster that relationship with the two of us.
So we've had to be creative over the years, that's for sure. We've tried to have regular date nights, and sometimes through different seasons, that's more feasible than others. I remember when we first got married, David had just opened his practice, brand new dental practice, and we could hardly afford to pay a babysitter with six kids and go do something. So we would pay a sitter and we would go fishing, or we would go play tennis or just do something that was super inexpensive.
Also over the years, I have to say we have been so very, very, very blessed by so many friends that have offered to watch our children so that we can get that time together. We're always on the constant learning curve. But we're always looking to connect in different ways.
I would say in the phase that we're in right now, it's been day dates, which has been really, really fun. He gets off work now on Wednesdays early and so we go have lunch and we'll go fishing or we'll just do something in the middle of the day, which is totally unique and new for us. But it's been really fun.
[00:09:47] One of the things I do want to add about our dates is that we purposely do not ever talk about our children on our dates. Like that's our time to connect. That's for us and no one else.
In addition to that though we do have a lot of other little things that we do to make sure that we stay connected throughout the week because it gets so crazy once Monday hits. Like I mentioned earlier, we have the Sunday night staff meetings, and we stop and we talk about the upcoming week. You know, what's going on, our schedules, which child is needing some extra love and attention right now, which child needs more spiritual direction, which child needs to go to the dermatologist, which child needs to go the orthodontist for the first time, things like that, that we have to just like pause and be aware of.
Or even like, which child's slipping through the cracks right now, because we have some squeaky wheels and we haven't been giving this one enough attention. So we always want to be on the same page with eight kids. And it's certainly a lot to keep up with. And that's a simple way that we can connect.
Another thing I thought about that David does intentionally that I love is that he calls me every day on the way home from work, just maybe for a minute, maybe five minutes. But it's that few short minutes of uninterrupted time before he walks in the door and everyone's Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, and you know, then we're literally dividing and conquering, running in a million different directions. But that's kind of our time to how was your day, how are you, those types of things we can connect with.
[00:11:09] And a couple other little things that we try to do, and I don't always do it very well, but I asked him periodically, maybe every six months, maybe every year, Hey, in the season that we're in right now, I know, I can't do everything well, but what are three things that I can do that are meaningful to you? Or what are three things that I can focus on that I can do really well?
And the funny thing is he's such a simple guy that he rarely has three things. It's usually one or two at the most. And he rarely changes them up. But I think the point of it is that the act of intentionality and just asking him, Hey, you know what's important to you right now? What can I do for you?
And then the last thing is that he leaves for work really early in the morning while it's still very dark, and I don't always do it but I try every single morning before he leaves for work, it's like, hey, what's one thing I can do for you today? And just that check-in, just that intentionality of that.
I think what we've learned over the years that in order to enrich our marriage and to connect, it's not anything major. It's just all these little simple things that build up over time.
Laura Dugger: [00:12:07] That's such honoring question. I love to hear some examples like that. Back to your staff meetings, are those just with you and your husband first and then you include the kids as well?
Elizabeth Pehrson: No, it's just with David and me. We'll sit upstairs, and you know, he might make notice, you know, obviously in his line of work.. He'll say, you know, it's really about time for this one to see the orthodontist. Well, I had no idea. Or hey, this one's really struggling with her self-image, maybe you can just give her some extra dad attention or dad love and just pour into her.
So it's really more just trying to meet their needs, not just physically but spiritually, their heart needs. Like, Hey, have you noticed this one's been withdrawing a little bit? Have you noticed this one's complaining or these two cannot get along? They're like oil and water. What are we going to do? So it's more like that.
But funny that you asked about if the kids are involved. They are not involved with that. But on Sunday nights, one of the things that we started doing a number of years ago was... we call it TED Talk Sundays. And I don't really know why we call it that. But I think maybe the first time we watched a TED talk together. But we eat in the family room and watch TV, like a purposeful thing, whether it's a documentary, or whether it's a TED talk, or a YouTube video, or something like that. We do that with the kids. And that's kind of fun to do just as a family.
Laura Dugger: [00:13:17] Oh, those are neat traditions. So going back to raising all of these kids, how were you able to care for yourself during all of these seasons of parenting?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, that's a good question. In regards to self care, I will tell you that the season when that hands down was the hardest for me was when my kids were little. For 15 straight years, I had either a baby or a toddler in the home. And 15 years is a really long time. And I struggled. I really, really did.
But David would walk in the door after what seemed like an eternity. You know, he'd be gone all day and I'd been at home, like I said, a six-year-old, five-year-old, four-year-old, two-year-old, one-year-old and I was sickly pregnant. And I just needed adult interaction. That's one of the things that helps me with my self care, because people are what energize me. Absolutely.
So those years were really hard and the years that I was in the trenches. And I felt so drained, and I felt exhausted because I didn't have that adult interaction that I craved. But the good thing, my sweet husband, he was always so willing and gracious to allow me that time if I had the energy to go out.
As the kids got older and became a little bit more involved in activities, I was able to then go out and have conversations with other moms and develop relationships and interact, whether it's at the ballpark or whatever it might have been. And that helped. I will say, now hands down. I'm in the best season as far as able to foster friendships and relationships. And that's what fills my cup. So it gives me energy.
[00:14:44] You also just alluded to self care, and that's kind of I'm thinking of like, what fills me up. And that's people. But I also think physically is another big part of that, like how you take care of yourself physically with that many kids and you just feel like all you're doing is caring for somebody else.
In the earlier years, obviously, that was very hard to do, because I was either pregnant or I had just given birth or got pregnant again. And I was extremely, extremely sick throughout all of my pregnancies. So working out was the last thing that I felt like doing. But once my kids were in school, oh, my goodness, it was so much easier to go on a walk or play tennis or workout or do whatever I wanted to do.
And I would say, in addition to that, taking care of myself emotionally, and spiritually is very, very, very important, because so much stems from that. I found that for me, one of the most helpful ways just to stay on track spiritually and check myself emotionally was through mentors.
When we first got married, we were involved in a super incredible ministry that had older couples that were willing and ready just to pour into us. And we immediately hit it off with one of the couples there. Now all I can say is that they loved on us so well. Like they genuinely loved on us. They watched our children for us.
[00:15:57] I remember one time, we just had six kids with the stomach bug, and we were gone that next weekend, and they came to our house and cleaned it from top to bottom for us. And they were such a huge influence in our lives. We even named our seventh child after them. His name is Witt, because they meant that much to us.
And they just served us so well during those years when we were just in the trenches. That's the only way I know to describe it. But in addition to them, we also have another couple that live in Florida and they have 12 kids, and they are absolutely amazing. And the thing that's amazing about them, as busy as they are, they always, always, always make time for us.
She's never too busy to take my phone call. She always is offering me sound practical advice. And even more than that, just friendship and perspective and humor to get through those tough years. So, mentor is a huge part of my self care.
Laura Dugger: [00:16:47] I think that's always encouraging to hear and inspiring to find your own mentor.
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, yeah.
Laura Dugger: Now let's take a brief break to hear a message from two of our sponsors.
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Laura Dugger: [00:19:08] Those friendships you were alluding to earlier, did you prioritize those during all of the stages of parenting?
Elizabeth Pehrson: I tried to the best of my ability because friends are my lifeline whether it's friends far away that I stay in touch with by phone, or a friend that I talked to every morning first thing or those that I just text with periodically throughout the day and then those, obviously, I see on a regular basis. But they all give me energy, you know different friends in different ways.
Obviously, some seasons are easier than others to foster those relationships. But being a high yellow extrovert, it is definitely a high priority for me.
You know, when your kids are younger, your friends tend to be those with kids in your same stage of life. You're involved in the same activities or in your small group or sports families. It's the ones that run in the same circles that you do. For us, when that was the case, we always tried to look for people that had the same type of parenting mindset that we had, because that's who you naturally spend a lot of time with, you know, when your kids are younger. And we wanted to be like-minded in our parenting with them.
But then the beauty of it is, as your kids get older, you have a little bit more freedom and time to seek out other friendships, whether you're still in the same circles with your kids or not. I recognize that not everybody has the need or the strong desire to foster friendships or be around a lot of people. Not everyone has that. But for me, it really is a need, and so therefore, I've made it a priority.
One of the reasons is because I love people. But the other reason is that there's only two things that last forever. And it's people and the Word of God. So it's like, to my best of my ability, that's where I want to spend my time.
Laura Dugger: [00:20:45] For the mom who has that same desire, maybe she's yellow temperament as well, did you ever feel guilty prioritizing those friendships when your kids were little?
Elizabeth Pehrson: You know, I think my husband has been a huge gift in that because he never made me feel guilty. And I've been wired this way since the day I was born. So I knew it was a need of mine. I didn't necessarily know that I was, you know, a seven or that I'm a yellow. I didn't really have the words to put to it. But because he was so free and understood that when I came back, I had more life, and I was a better me. And the better me that I can be, the better version of me those around me get. So I didn't. Maybe that's wrong. I don't know. But I didn't.
Laura Dugger: [00:21:27] I love it. What did have to go or what did you have to sacrifice and say no to in order to say yes to giving your family adequate time?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, wow. Over the years, cumulatively, I would say lots of things. There were seasons when I had to give up leading weekly women's groups or give up tennis, which I love, or step back from being super involved in my kids' activities, or even in the community, which I'm a huge part of.
I live life pretty full throttle. I always say that when I get to heaven, I just want to be out of breath. The way Erma Bombeck says it is... I just have to tell you, she says, "When I stand before God, at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left and I could say I used everything you gave me."
I just love that. That's how I want to live. And I realized that I have a high capacity and I'm full throttle. And so I tend to say yes to more things than others would. And there's certainly been times when David's had to kind of pull me back a little bit and give me a reality check and say, Hey, we need to simmer down, or we need to slow our roll on this. And we had to reevaluate my schedule and ask, you know, is this in fact the best yes, for this season in our lives? I know you love women's groups, but is this the best yes for right now? I know you love tennis, but for right now, is this the best yes?
There's a lot of things that I had to say no during those seasons. I know this sounds silly, but one of the things I had to give up was sleep. And I know that every mom does. I get that. I am not a morning person at all. I like to stay up past midnight and sleep the last possible minute.
But I got to a point where I knew that I only have so many hours in a day. And if I want to attend to my family when they're available, and I still also have this conflict of what, you know, tension of things that I want to get done I had to get up early to do those things that I wanted to do so that it didn't take up family time.
Or let's say if I wanted to spend time during the day doing something fun with friends or whatever I want to do, I needed to get up early to make sure that dinner was still made or the sheets were washed, or whatever needed to be done that day, I had to get up early to make sure that it wasn't sacrificing. Just because I wanted to go out and be with my friends, I'm not just, oh, there it goes all the family responsibilities. You know, so sleep was one. I don't know if that makes sense but that was a big one for me.
Laura Dugger: [00:23:44] Yeah, definitely changing your natural preference to be a night owl. And did any of this change or evolve from the time that you had your first to your eighth child?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I would hope that with time and experience came one stone, you know, and still continues to come. But there are times where I have been incredibly stubborn. It took me a little longer to get to a place of surrender, to say, no, I can't do this right now or no, this is not the season.
And over the years, my perspective has changed greatly. I think back to reading my journal entries when I just had one child and I just thought, "Oh my goodness, this is exhausting. How can I do this?" And now looking back, having eight and looking at that, my perspective has changed so greatly.
But also as I'm learning and growing and I learned about the temperaments and love languages and my kids' emotional needs and really started studying my kids. I was able to let go of some things a little bit easier and not resist it so much. For instance, I used to think I needed to give them all a certain amount of quality time and I needed to give them all the different love languages. And I realized that that's not the case.
[00:24:50] I mean, we don't treat them as if everything is fair. We joke about it but we say fair is just a place where you go to get cotton candy. And it's true though. They don't all need the same amount of quality time. They don't all need the same gifts. They don't all need the same amount of physical touch. I mean, we have one daughter that really can't stand physical touch. We call her PT for short, just the personal physical touch because she doesn't like it. And their needs are going to vary from child to child. And once I understood that, it was just a huge relief for me.
Another thing that had to evolve and that I was able to grow into was humbling myself and really realizing that I'm not the only one that can give them the direction and the love and the affirmation that they need. They're going to have other people like coaches and Young Life leaders and small group leaders and FCA leaders and on and on and on that can pour into them in ways that I can't do it.
I realized, yes, I'm their parent, but I'm not the only one that's going to raise them and lead them and disciple them and nurture them. Because it really, especially with the big family, it really does take a village. And there's not as much pressure on me because I realized that God has raised up and equipped other people to reach them in ways that I never can. So it's actually been really free.
Laura Dugger: [00:25:57] I love that. I think that's a great word of encouragement for everyone. You have the benefit of having older children who have launched well while you're simultaneously still in the trenches with your younger kids. So what can you see in your older kids now that has paid off from the intentional parenting that you and your husband did when they were young?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, man, this is a great, great question. It is our desire to parent with a long-term goal in sight. You know, we don't want to parent for the here and now, we want to have a long-term vision. Not what's gonna give them happiness right now, but what's gonna give them long-term gratification later.
The tricky thing about parenting is, though, you don't always know if what you're doing is going to work or how they're going to turn out until, you know, sometimes it's too late. Or sometimes you don't know how they turn out until they actually turn out when they're grown.
There have been a lot of times that I have felt alone in my parenting journey. And I've complained to David and just said, You know, no one gets it. Because most of our friends that had kids when we first had kids had one kid, maybe two kids, the most three, and then they stopped. And we kept having children.
And then our friends that have college-aged kids like we do, they're either empty nesters or they're really close to it. And all of them that have like two or three children, for the most part, they're in the same stage of life. Their kids are in the same season. Like they both are in high school or both are in middle school. And, you know, we have kids in elementary school, middle school, high school, and even college.
[00:27:22] And it wasn't until this summer that I realized, to get back to your question, what a gift that this is, and that it's a unique perspective that we have that not a lot of parents can receive or have. For instance, I went to UGA this summer with my oldest son for his orientation and I witnessed parents sitting in classes at orientation for their children while their children slept in.
I witnessed a mom trying to get handouts for her son, because our son didn't want to come to his orientation. The professors were telling parents, it was so funny, he's like, "Back off. Stop taking pictures of these slides because you're not going to school in the fall. Your kids are." The parents who are saying, "Hey," to the kids, "Get off Snapchat. Start taking pictures of these slides because your parents are not going to be here in the fall with you." It was so eye-opening and it was so mind-boggling at the same time to me.
My son, you know, over the course of those couple of days, Maxton, he told me about kids that couldn't get their ID taken by themselves or get their meal plans purchased without their parents there helping them. And probably the sweetest gift I had that weekend that I was able to receive was I had the privilege of sitting with him at dinner before I headed back home and he said to me, he said, "Mom, I didn't appreciate it when I was younger, but thank you. Thank you. Thank you for teaching me how to do things for myself when I was at home so that I'll know how to do things now that I'm on my own."
He said, "You know, I look around and it blows my mind how these kids can't do anything for themselves. And I'm so, so, so glad I am. And I can." And I just sat there and I thought, that is such a gift to me because we're able to see the fruits of our labor while I still have young children at home. And it was like this affirmation that, hey, just keep doing what you're doing.
We live in a very affluent area, entitlement is rampant. It's just prevalent everywhere we go. And I've thought a lot about entitlement. My husband and I talk a lot about it. We believe that entitlement is not just how much do you give to our children, but equally is how much we do for our children. The more we do for them, the less they want to do for themselves.
We've always believed the philosophy that just because we can provide or give doesn't mean we should. So we've made them work, we've made them do really hard chores, make them pay for a lot of their own things. And just seeing how that has played out with our oldest son in college has been such an affirmation with still having the younger kids at home just saying yeah, keep doing what you're doing.
Laura Dugger: [00:29:46] So as you look back when they were younger, would you have considered yourselves in the category of strict parents?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Yes. I would say that when they were younger, we were incredibly strict. The beauty of that is the more strict and consistent you can be when they're younger, the more hands-off you can be when they're a little bit older.
Laura Dugger: [00:30:06] That's encouraging. So it sounds like all of the hard work is worth it. Is that right?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Yes, it's worth it. Some days more so than others.
Laura Dugger: [00:30:14] Well, and now with your older kids, what do they say are some of the best lessons that you and your husband taught them?
Elizabeth Pehrson: We've talked about this with the older four kids on a regular basis. And matter of fact, the day before Maxim left for college, we took them out to lunch, and we asked him, we said, "Hey, what advice do you have for us with the younger seven?" And the look on his face was just priceless. Like, what do you mean?
We just said, "Hey, you know, you're done. You're on your own now. Is there any advice that you can say for the younger children? Things that you liked, things that you didn't like, things that worked, things that didn't...?" Older four would say that we've encouraged their success, but we fully embrace their failure. Being hands off, so that they could fail as much as possible while they're still in the home.
We have this mantra, don't bail, let them fail, because we want them to learn the lessons at home, rather than protecting them all along the way and then all of a sudden, they have their first failure at college. So we did want to encourage them to experience failure while they're still at home.
Laura Dugger: [00:31:08] What did some of those failures look like?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Anything from forgetting their uniform on game day, and not rushing up there to bring them to uniform. Or they all have to make their own lunches from kindergarten on. And if they forgot their lunch, you know what, I know you don't love buying lunch, but there's still food there, you're not going to go starving.
Some of them it was bigger failures. Most recently my daughter had a pretty bad car accident and we didn't rush in and buy her a brand new car. And we didn't say, "Oh, well, you understand accidents happen?" Yes, we do understand that but there's still a consequence to everything. So when our insurance skyrocketed, she has to pay that difference. So those types of failures within the home where there's still a consequence to their failures so that they can learn.
Laura Dugger: [00:31:50] So you let them experience the natural consequences with it?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Absolutely. We try to at least. That's always our goal, the natural consequence. Because everything they do... everything we do is a choice. And it has its consequences and it has its pros and cons. So to learn that early on, we think the better.
Laura Dugger: Definitely.
Elizabeth Pehrson: It's interesting. They all would say that they have appreciated how much we have taught them to be independent and responsible and can advocate for themselves. Like, we're not going to go to their teachers. We're not going to go to their coaches. We're going to let them work it out.
You don't agree with this grade or you think it's subjective, like you talk to them. I remember my daughter was in the third grade, and she came home and she said, "Oh, my goodness, I left my homework at my desk. Would you please email my teacher and tell her that I'll get there early and I'll do it in the morning." And I said, "Oh, absolutely, I will."
And all the other kids were like, "You're gonna email her?" So I sat down to my computer and I said, "Dear Miss Pillman, I just want you to know that Mary Madden left her homework on her desk, and she wanted to make you aware of it. And I'd love for you to punish her however you see fit. Thank you so much. Elizabeth." And she was like, "Mom."
But you know what, the teachers appreciate that. It's not like we're going to step in and we're going to swoop in and rescue every single time. But they just all say that they feel so much more competent than so many of their peers, and they're really appreciative of that.
[00:33:03] Our second is heading off to UGA in the fall as well and he recently told me, he said, "Mom, you're not gonna believe this but I'm so grateful that I know how to do laundry. None of my friends know how to do it." I really just had to laugh, because here he is, this 18-year-old boy and he's been doing it since he was eight. They all fought us on it when they were learning to do laundry.
We have a little rule in our home that says, when you turn eight, you're no longer a consumer, but a contributor. And when they turn eight and they have to contribute, one of the things that they have to do is their laundry. So they all would dread their eighth birthday. They're like, No. But now he's so grateful that he knows how to do it. He knows how to do it well. He's had lots of years of practice.
There's so many new things that you have to experience when you go off to college. So many first, so many unknowns. You have a lot of things that you're trying to navigate and figure out and laundry is not something new to him. It's not something new to any of them. It's just something they've always done. And that's just one less thing for them to worry about.
But the last thing I would say, my daughter recently said this to me, is how grateful she is for the manners that we've taught them. And she said really just showing them how to treat other people. And the reason she said this, I thought it was interesting, is because at school she sees the drastic difference in how people treat their peers, how they speak to their teachers, and even how they speak to their family.
Laura Dugger: [00:34:21] I just want to say thank you to someone who left this personal review and five-star rating on iTunes. Farmerswife402 says, "I love how their various guests talk on a bunch of different topics, and you will leave feeling refreshed and a little bit wiser." Thanks so much for taking the time to leave a review.
To go back and highlight a few of those things, I love that paradigm shift. They're not consumers, they're contributors. So they did their own laundry. What are a few other practical examples of what they were expected to do?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Their chores, picked it up big time. Before it was more, you know, like feeding the dog and watering the plants and some of the more simple things. But then it's washing your own sheets and making your own bed. And I don't just mean daily. But I mean, you know, starting from scratch where it's a little bit harder to make.
They also start helping with dinner. Now it doesn't mean that they cook the whole dinner, but they might make the banana bread, or they might cut the fruit salad or something that's a portion of it. So things like that that contribute to the family and help me and help others, you know.
Laura Dugger: [00:35:22] And I think you painted a realistic picture that it didn't go unopposed. There may have been whining or fighting about it. In the long run they appreciated it.
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I mean, none of us really want more work put on our plate. I remember the first time my son was nine made his first meal. And part of making his own meal was like, "Okay, what are you going to make? Now just making the meal doesn't mean the food is here. We have to go to the grocery store.
It was so funny he wanted to make taco salad. So I said, "Well, we're gonna go to the produce section." And he's like, "What's the produce?" You know, he had no idea. And I said, "Well, because you don't have to buy the groceries." So we showed him all the different types of lettuce. And okay, well now what's on sale? And what can feed our family? And how much do we need to buy?
He complained the whole way. "How long is this going to take?" But the look on his face when he had finished making that meal for 10 people, you realize not many nine-year-olds can cook for 10 people. And I actually think at the time my mother-in-law was living with us. And it was 11. And the satisfaction that he had. "Wow, I did this."
And the other thing I would add about chores is never give a chore to a child that you don't adequately train them how to do. It doesn't mean they're gonna do it perfect. But you know, you can't just say, "Go clean the bathroom." "What do I need to do?" So you adequately train them so that they're not met with frustration when you come back and say, "What did you do in here?" But instead, you can go, "Okay, you did a great job. Now next time, we're going to actually clean around the toilet." And just add build on to it each time.
Laura Dugger: [00:36:45] That reminds me of something my husband always says, that we either can go from easy to hard or hard to easy. So maybe the hard part is taking the time adequately training them, but it pays off.
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh. I mean, that's why most moms say, "It's just easier for me to do it myself." And I understand that it's easier. But is it the most beneficial thing? That's the question. I mean, sure, it's easier for me to do it.
I do want to add one more thing about chores. When they're doing something, to really just encourage them as they're doing it instead of leaving them with "Oh, you missed this spot," or, "Oh, I can't believe you did this." But just to encourage them. Because, you know, none of us want to do a job that someone's complaining the whole time you did it wrong. You just want to go, "Fine. You do it then. If that's the way you want it, then you do it." But just to encourage them and then say, "Hey, maybe next time we'll try it this way and see how that turns out."
Laura Dugger: [00:37:36] Well, before we hit record today, you had mentioned in previous conversation that you often see younger moms battling shame and guilt. And you've even talked about it here. That just because we can do or provide or give something doesn't mean that we should. So how do you recommend we discern the difference?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, absolutely. I certainly have seen this with younger moms. But honestly, all women, you know, in some form or fashion struggle with guilt or shame. "We aren't doing enough" or "we aren't good enough," or we messed up," or "we were short with our kids," or "we didn't give them enough or provide them enough or do enough for them." Or to the other extreme, "we gave them too much. We provided them with too much. We did too much." Whatever it might be, there's a lot of shame and guilt associated with it when we're second-guessing and wondering, did we do the right thing?
I would say the key is prayer. It really is. So often we do things out of rote memory or just busyness or a checklist to get us through our day. I guess the question I would ask is like, how often do we really just pause and pray and ask the Lord? And then discern, what does He have for us and what does He have for our children?
I think sometimes parenting tends to be a herd mentality, and we just go along with the cultural drift of society. It shouldn't be because we're all unique, and so are our children. And so our parenting should reflect that.
I've talked to so many young married girls that will emphatically tell me, you know, "Oh, I'm gonna have two kids," or "I'm gonna live in the city," or "no, I'm staying home with my kids. I'm not going to work." And then I've had some moms say, "I'm gonna homeschool all 12 years, every single one." Or I've had moms say, "I will never do public school." I've had a mom tell me, "I will never work outside the home. Ever."
[00:39:20] The offering that I would have for them and to them is, instead of dictating what your life will be like to the Lord, pause and pray and ask Him, what does He want? What does He have for us? You know, maybe you want two kids, but He's asking you for four. Maybe you wanted to homeschool out of fear and protection of your kids but He's asking you to grow your faith and grow your children's faith by putting them in public school.
Maybe He wants you to work. Maybe He wants you to quit your job. You know, the point is that I don't have the answer. But the point is that we just need to pause long enough to ask the Lord what does He require of us. And just sit in stillness long enough to listen and to see what He has to say.
I did a Bible study a number of years ago called Go and Tell No One and it was super fascinating to me. I never realized how many times in Scripture Jesus would heal someone and then He would say, Go and Tell No One. I would want to be telling everybody, "Oh, my goodness, look, I got healed." And He would say, No, go and tell no one.
And then this study, she often referenced Luke 5. And if I can share that, it says, "Yet the news about Him spread all the more so that the crowds of people came to hear Him and to be healed of their sicknesses. But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed." And I'm sure He could have stood outside and heal people all day long, much like our to-do list, the line would have been never-ending. But what He did was He prioritized the important over the urgent.
We get so caught up in whatever's right in front of us, like the urgent needs or the request of others, or even sometimes ourselves that we place on ourselves that we often miss the long-term goal of what's most important. And if we're pausing and we're sitting with Jesus and asking Him, "Hey, what is it you want?" Then we can rest in knowing that we're doing exactly what we should be doing with no guilt or shame.
Sometimes what He asked us is countercultural, and you know, people think you're crazy. But at the end of the day, you can lay your head on your pillow at night, and you just have complete peace knowing that you're staying in your lane doing exactly what you're called to do.
Laura Dugger: [00:41:17] I think that you're pointing out that Jesus is big-picture-minded. So as parents, how do you recommend that we stay big-picture-minded too instead of getting bogged down in our repetitive day today?
Elizabeth Pehrson: Oh, goodness, I'm super passionate about this. I don't know if you've ever heard the saying. But if you don't know where you're going, you're liable to end up somewhere else. The Bible says it this way: without a vision, the people perish. And it also says things like, "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
And that right there is visionary parenting. It has a long-term goal. I'm a big fan of John Roseman. He's a big advocate of this. He says that we should spend time thinking about what kind of adults we want to raise, long term—when they're 30 or so. And then we ask ourselves, is my daily parenting my daily disciplining with that long-term goal in sight?
Laura Dugger: [00:42:07] I think that's a great takeaway to ask ourselves that question.
Hey, everyone, we did it again. Just like last week's interview, I found myself so caught up in Elizabeth's teaching that I totally lost track of time. So after recording, we decided to split this episode into two parts as well. Please join us tomorrow as Elizabeth helps us apply all this knowledge to obediently respond to God's stirring in our own lives.
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
[00:44:23] If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Tuesday Sep 17, 2019
Tuesday Sep 17, 2019
73. Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part Two with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 4:29 (NIV) “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”
Kathleen Edelman has one goal in life: to help people learn to speak kindly to one another. She is certified in Biblical Studies and has a master’s in Christian Counseling Psychology. Kathleen has spent more than 25 years coaching clients in the art of communication. She is married with two grown children and has a surprising passion for martial arts and pickup trucks.
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I Said This You Heard That by Kathleen Edelman
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode.
Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Kathleen Edelman, author of I Said This, You Heard That. After we recorded, we realized we had entirely too much information to share with you, and it would be easier to digest in two episodes. So we'll pick right back up with the second part of our conversation from yesterday.
How can we start to identify others' dominant temperaments?
Kathleen Edelman: When people come in my office, they first leave and they're like, "Oh my gosh, that was so much information," or "this is going to be so hard." Again, it's like learning French and German. You speak French and I speak German. You're yellow and I'm blue, right? But if you immerse yourself in it and you really start listening, you can start to speak the other language.
So again it comes down to the simplicity of just listening to understand. [00:01:24] If we would just learn to pause and what happens to especially in parenting but across all work environments, marriages, most people react to the what that's happening. I'm trying to encourage people to pause and learn to respond to the whys. If we can learn to respond to the "why" instead of the "what", every single conversation will be different.
Laura Dugger: So in light of parenting, can we do another example?
Kathleen Edelman: Sure.
Laura Dugger: So my husband's green, I'm yellow, and we have a very blue daughter. So how can we encourage her and speak into the why, like you're saying?
Kathleen Edelman: Here's the first thing. You're going to have to know and want to know those innate needs. Even if she's not old enough to really give you a solid definition, you already know safety, support, sensitivity are very important to her.
So, that's where you start. You start speaking into compassion and empathy. "Hey, honey, I see that you're really frustrated with this homework. Let me know how you're feeling about it. Tell me what is it that is making you frustrated. I really would like to hear where that's coming from." [00:02:38]
You're breathing and you're speaking into her language. You're showing her sensitivity and support. Where normally, in your yellow, you'd be like, Oh, how are we gonna make this fun? This is a fun project to do." Okay, that's the last thing a blue person wants to hear. Because to them, they want to do it in excellence and they want to do it in what they feel is perfection. And they don't really look at it as fun. They look at it as a task that they want to get completed. Now, it may be fun but that's not how they're initially gonna look at it.
Your husband might say something like, "Oh, just get it done. It'll be fine." Another thing that will just send the hair on the back of your daughter's neck up because we don't do things that are just fine. That's not even how a melancholy or a blue person thinks.
Our motto is, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. So if you start talking to her in those words, like I had said right off the board, she's going to find you a safe place to be and then you're going to hear more response out of her. [00:03:41]
Laura Dugger: I love it. When we're in that healthy cycle, you just see amazing qualities come out of blues.
Kathleen Edelman: And the thing is, parents, we're pulled in society to be so busy that I think we lose focus and vision on how important and how short of time you have with your children. You know, all these parenting opportunities and windows that fly open.
Unfortunately, I see in my office a lot of times parents missing those opportunities, either because they claim they're too busy or "I've tried to do that and it just doesn't work" and "they don't listen" and blah, blah, blah. You know, there's always something. So if we would just recognize that those moments are precious and they are limited, those times will go away. Your children are growing up every day.
Laura Dugger: Well, and on that note, what potential do you think that we unlock when we do discover other people's colors and we begin to speak to them in their native language?
Kathleen Edelman: I think you lift them up according to their needs. [00:04:43] Our lives are a series of choices and circumstances. If you're in your weaknesses, 100% of the time, the circumstance will control you. But if you can stay in your strengths... in your strengths is where your calling and purpose is. And if you can identify and stay there in yourself and be authentic, and then you do that for the children and the people around you, and you're encouraging them to stay in their strengths, their potentials are exactly how God ordained them to be in their calling and purpose of what they're supposed to even be here for.
But even to the basics of what I try to teach, I just want people speaking kindly to each other. Just a kind word that would help somebody just say, You know what, I had a good day today.
Laura Dugger: What a gift that can be. I've heard you say before, I have the tendency to, but I choose to.
Kathleen Edelman: That is probably one of my favorite activities that I absolutely... it was a mandate that it went into the book because that's what's going to keep you in your strengths. Once you identify the weaknesses, and everybody knows the weaknesses that they're stuck in, because the one thing that all temperaments share, unfortunately, is selfishness. [00:06:00] So we are trying to move from selfishness to servitude.
One of my weaknesses for blue might be I remember the negatives. So if I know that I'm struggling with that, then I want to implement this exercise or this activity that says, I have a tendency to remember the negatives, but I'm going to choose in this circumstance to be compassionate. Or maybe I have a tendency to remember the negatives, but this circumstance requires for me to choose to be analytical or logical.
See, I always have a choice, depending on any circumstance that comes in, to choose a strength over a weakness. And that's my choice. Nobody can do that for me.
Laura Dugger: That's so empowering because then it doesn't leave us helpless with whatever temperament we have.
Kathleen Edelman: We never, ever, ever, ever use our temperament as a weapon or as an excuse. My heart would break if I ever heard anybody say, Well, that's just how I'm wired. I'm just green. I have no sense of urgency." [00:07:00] Or, you know, hey, I talk with a tone. I'm red. That's just the way it is. No, that's not okay with me.
Laura Dugger: It sounds like the opposite of what you're trying to coach.
Kathleen Edelman: Exactly. We can all be our best authentic self if we really just put the effort into how beautifully God designed you.
Laura Dugger: Well said. Let's use all of this background knowledge now and zero in on marriage. So from your experience, have you seen more couples that marry in their same or similar temperament or opposite?
Kathleen Edelman: Mostly opposite. Opposites attract by far. I always see some kind of diagonal or opposites. The second one I see the most probably is the same temperament just flipped. So maybe a red-blue is married to a blue-red. The one I see the least of is the exact same temperament. I could probably count on one hand how many couples I know that are the exact same temperament. But opposites definitely. [00:08:00]
You know, when you're dating, you know, we throw all the strengths on the table. And we do that subconsciously. That's what's attracted you to each other. But then, unfortunately, in marriage, even in scripture it says in marriage there will be trials, there comes a complacency. And when that sets in, guess what starts to rear their head? Weaknesses.
Then all of a sudden, they end up in my office and they're saying, she used to be fun, or he used to be this, or she used to be that. Because what happened is you immediately start to change your spouse to be more like you. That's when conflict starts.
Laura Dugger: Okay, well, let's elaborate on that. So let's start with a couple that you see most often, the opposite. What conflict can they expect? Do you have any encouragement to provide or any illustrations of how those opposites can work well together?
Kathleen Edelman: They can work extremely well together because first of all, the hardest combination is the red-green or the green-red combination. [00:09:00] Everybody asks me that, and that's the answer. It's the red-green. But that's probably the most... again, the diagonals are the strongest combination.
Why? Because, for example, My husband's secondary is yellow, his strengths are my weaknesses; my strengths are his weaknesses. If we can celebrate that in each other which we did when we were dating, then we become really unbreakable force. We're stepping towards each other because I'm leaning into his strengths, not complaining about his weaknesses. And he's doing the same.
So it's like if you interlocked your fingers, you know, that's a really powerful grip right there is to have that interlocking relationship. But it takes humility. It takes vulnerability. It takes grace. It takes humility. And we want to make sure that we stay there because I'm very much about having every couple stay in boyfriend-girlfriend mode. [00:10:07]
I've been married 30 years. I really push this a lot because that's when you were celebrating each other's strengths, you were attracted to each other's strengths, and you were probably in your strengths.
Laura Dugger: I love that. So encouragement to stay in boyfriend-girlfriend mode.
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Let's flip this into parenting. How can we truly train up the child in the way they should go as we look at these temperaments?
Kathleen Edelman: Let's just apply Ephesians 4:29. Every word that comes out of your mouth to your daughter has to be what Proverbs 18:21 says, on your tongue lays the power of life or death. So is it life words building her up according to her needs, not your needs, and benefiting all who listen?
So we really want to identify that and then make sure that we're feeding into the design that God made for that child, because it's within their design that they're calling in purposes. [00:12:17] And it's our responsibility as parents to have them thrive in their design, have them thrive in their purpose, give them a strong foundation so they can authentically be themselves without ever having to look side to side and question who they are or why they're here. They can be so solid in "this is who I am. This is how I'm wired. I do not have to be a different thing. I can be a beautiful yellow or I can be a beautiful green because that's how I was designed. And that's where my talents and purpose and calling is gonna be."
Laura Dugger: Then what about when the weaknesses are coming out? Your yellow is being very charming or your red is using anger to control or green procrastination or blue the moods. How can you parent well?
Kathleen Edelman: The first thing is talk about it. Identify with it. You can absolutely say, "Hey, I see that you're choosing anger with this or tone. Tell me what it is because it seems like you're impatient about this." [00:13:22] What could you do differently or what could you have chosen differently? I'm all about the plan b as well especially. You know, I can see this didn't work out for you what's your plan b
See, it's very important in parenting that we have people, we have the children think and then problem-solve and then make a decision and then live with the consequence. Sometimes parents go in and they just soop in and they give them the answer and they tell their kids what to do instead of showing curiosity and interest and saying, "Oh, I see that this is frustrating you," or "I hear what you're saying and I know you want to go out and play with your friends because you're all about people and you're a very good friend. How are you going to get your homework done first before you go out? Or maybe invite a friend over to do your homework." Whatever the verbiage is goes right in line with whatever their wiring is.
Laura Dugger: I have to think, Kathleen, your kids probably appreciate it so much that you had started this before they even came along, so they were raised with these temperaments. Are there any examples that come to mind as you think back of parenting them? [00:14:34]
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, there's hundreds and hundreds. I can remember them still being in car seats and Bryce is a blue and Avery's a yellow. Avery is, "Can we please stop at one more store? Can we just please stop, Bryce, one more store? We'll just... Mom will stop, we'll walk through the toy section at Target. And then if you'll do this with me, I promise that you can read me your Thomas book when we get home."
And then you can see Bryce on his car seat kind of thinking about it processing and he's like, "Avery, if you will let me read two books to you when we get home, then I will go through Target with you. But we have to put the timer on that it's five minutes. Agreed?" And Avery would be like, "Agreed." I mean, they were literally honoring each other's temperament very young.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. What about your encouragement to them in their temperaments or your correction of them when they were choosing to live out a weakness?
Kathleen Edelman: Avery was easy to talk to because she's so in the moment. So I would say to her, you know when she was excessively talking, which she still can do, story after story after story, I would say, "I want to give you my full attention and I can give you my full attention for your first story. You are so good at telling stories. You're gonna have to save a couple for either bedtime or tomorrow. Which one would you like to tell me? [00:15:59]
That way she knows that there's a limit and she knew that I was interested, but she could not dominate the time. She would have just kept going and going if you would have given her the space.
For Bryce, it was more of getting down on my knee and connecting with the feelings and emotions he was feeling. So he would get frustrated about something and I would get on my knees and I would say, eye to eye, "I see you're frustrated that Thomas didn't stay on the track. That can be really hard to try so hard to get him up there. How can I help you keep the train on the track or build a different track? And what's your plan B if Thomas doesn't stay on the track?"
I mean, I was doing plan B's with Bryce since he was like three years old, and I still do it, and he's a senior at Georgia Tech. He just recently called and said, "Well, my group's not getting together for the final. I don't know how I'm going to study." You know what my response was? "What's your plan B?" And he had one. He still had to get that out as a blue, that his plan didn't go as he had planned. [00:17:07]
Laura Dugger: Very helpful for parents. Let's just approach this topic. We'll back up another step from a broader view now. How does an understanding of the temperaments lead someone to more clearly live out their God-given purpose?
Kathleen Edelman: When you accept how you're wired and you don't listen to the world of what you're supposed to be, especially if you're a young couple or you're a young mom and your passion... You know, the word "enthusiasm" means God within.
So when we can stay focused and accept how God wired us and not be told that another temperament's better or you're comparing and looking side to side, but you really sit in that acceptance, and then you really work on feeding your own soul and understanding your innate needs and finding that you can choose to stay in your strengths, all of a sudden that application gives you such freedom that you automatically stop looking side to side. [00:18:11]
And you're looking straight ahead to honor God with how he wired you. Because you came in this world alone, you're going to leave alone. So you want to do every day. Our biggest misconception is that we have time. So we got to think time is a value. It's a gift. I've been given it right now. How am I going to first and foremost love myself and my wiring from God and live out that so that I can do what I'm supposed to do? And that is love others better.
Laura Dugger: And what is your vision for everyone listening? Do you have any final tips that you want to leave them with today?
Kathleen Edelman: I would say patience and speaking kind. I mean, I've been doing this for 30 years and my train still goes off the track once in a while. This is a journey. This isn't something that you're going to conquer right out of the gate. It's gonna take practice. So I would ask that they don't lose heart but that they really keep immersing themselves in knowing themselves and knowing others and watching the words that they use. [00:19:11] Because words matter. They matter. They're life or death.
So we really just want to stay there and really pause and think about how we're talking to ourselves and others, and know that eventually, before you know it, it won't be something that you're doing. Just like God didn't ask us to do a witness, He asked us to be a witness. I'm not asking anybody to do the temperaments. I'm asking you to marinate in it so much that it just becomes who you are. That just kind words flow out of your mouth because they're coming from your heart.
Laura Dugger: Thanks to your help sharing episodes and reposting our content on social media. The Savvy Sauce has grown to being streamed in all 50 United States and over 85 countries around the world. If you want to partner with us in sharing the joy of The Savvy Sauce, will you please consider becoming a patron today?
You can join the club for as little as $2 per month, and in addition to some free perks, you will be helping us spread our mission, which is this: we exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled to overflowing. [00:20:19] Please consider joining us today by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on the Patreon tab. Now back to the show.
Do you have any recommended next steps from here? And also, is there a place where listeners can follow up with you online?
Kathleen Edelman: They can go to kathleenedelman.com or they can go to isaidyouheard.study. You know, 30 years, not all my content but the foundational part of my content is in the book, I Said This, You Heard That. I would start there. And it really just will give everybody the biggest kickstart and some foundational resources to look back on for their family and every relationship. I would definitely start there.
Laura Dugger: And as always, we will definitely link to that in the show notes, and then we'll put a link as well on our resources tab on our website.
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, please do. And the videos that go along with the book are free, which I thought that was a brilliant decision made on the people who did the videos, because that's how passionate we are about getting this message out. [00:21:28]
Laura Dugger: Great videos to get to actually talk to everybody in that temperament. Our friends listening know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, Kathleen, I have one final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?
Kathleen Edelman: I really, every day, ask God to make sure that I just spend some of that space and silence time making sure that I'm doing something that feeds my own soul. And I'm not talking about reading my Bible or doing devotionals. What actually do I love? Like, what am I going to do that really makes me walk away and go, oh, that was really fun. It might be a lunch with a friend or like, you may laugh at this, but I've been terrified of horses my whole life. So I'm currently meeting with a girlfriend that is a horse trainer. So, I'm going to conquer that in the next couple years. I'm going to see if I can't ride a horse. [00:22:30]
Laura Dugger: Kathleen, you are such a thoughtful and kind woman and this has been a really enriching interview. So, thank you for just doing an excellent work and then sharing it with all of us.
Kathleen Edelman: Well, I could not thank you enough for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:23:30]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:24:34]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:25:35]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 16, 2019
Monday Sep 16, 2019
72. Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part One with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 4:29 (NIV) “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”
Kathleen Edelman has one goal in life: to help people learn to speak kindly to one another. She is certified in Biblical Studies and has a master’s in Christian Counseling Psychology. Kathleen has spent more than 25 years coaching clients in the art of communication. She is married with two grown children and has a surprising passion for martial arts and pickup trucks.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
I Said This You Heard That by Kathleen Edelman
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Are you looking for the latest styles and greatest fashion trends for you and your little ones? The Joyful Boutique is a locally owned clothing boutique located in Eureka, Illinois, but they ship items all over the world. They stock the latest fashionable boutique clothing for children and women ranging in sizes from 2T to 3XL. Check them out today at thejoyfulboutique.com and enter Savvy for a special discount.
If you're interested in understanding your spouse, children, coworkers, and even yourself better, this is the episode for you. I'm thrilled to host Kathleen Edelman as my guest today. Kathleen has studied temperaments extensively, and she's coached clients in the art of communication for over 25 years.
Today we're going to cover the simple framework of temperaments, and she's going to share a multitude of stories and examples to help you learn how to live in your own strengths and to use kind words to draw out the best in others.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kathleen. [00:01:28]
Kathleen Edelman: Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: I would love to have you just start us off by telling us a little bit more about yourself and the work that you do.
Kathleen Edelman: Well, I am very motivated by words. So what I do is I pair up communication and the understanding of temperaments, all biblically based. So I've done this for several decades where I've tried to help people find their authentic self and understand that communication can be a gift, not just to others, but to themselves, and that it's very important to foundationally know how God wired you so that we can speak kindly to each other.
Laura Dugger: I love that. I think you often point out a specific verse that's been very meaningful. Do you mind sharing that with us?
Kathleen Edelman: I never mind sharing this verse because it's my family's verse. It is a verse that was brought to me when I was a child, and everything I do in my ministry and in my coaching is based off Ephesians 4:29. [00:02:30]
That verse says, "Do not let any unwholesome words come out of your mouth. Only what builds others up according to their needs and benefit all who listen." I truly believe whether you're a believer or not, if you just used that verse even as a bullet point outline, it would change every conversation.
Laura Dugger: I think that's very wise. Just in case this topic of temperaments is brand new to someone listening, will you explain the four temperaments framework?
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. What I find a lot, Laura, is that people get temperament and personality confused. So that question is actually great because there's a lot of personality tests and assessments, and they're online. And what they do is they take just a snapshot of time.
Personality is the what. Temperament is the why. So if we were to look at it, temperament is the why behind feelings, the why behind emotions, because that's what personality is. It's feelings and emotions. So temperament was studied way back at the time of Hippocrates. In about 60 A.D., a physician named Galen put names to them. [00:03:45]
There's four. There's sanguine, choleric, melancholy, and phlegmatic. Each one they thought was represented by fluid or humor in the body, but they've since figured out that's not what it is. But it is how you naturally, innately respond to different situations in your life. So those are the four temperaments, and that is the why behind personality.
Laura Dugger: I love that in your work, you've changed those confusing names and titles and given them colors, which we'll use the rest of the time to identify them. So do you mind pairing those up for us?
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely not. I may go in between. So please, Laura, correct me, because I've said the Greek names forever. So sanguine is yellow. The choleric is red. The melancholy or melancholic is blue. And the phlegmatic is green. Because those Greek words absolutely can be a mouthful, especially when you're talking to children.
Laura Dugger: Definitely. [00:04:45] You do work with children in addition to adults and businesses. Is that right?
Kathleen Edelman: Absolutely. In fact, I've done this longer than my children have been alive. So I have actually seen the benefits of individuals knowing their temperaments from a very, very early age. So what happens even in my office, Laura, is that the children come in and they get temperaments very quickly. They get it. They can identify.
I look at it as each temperament has their own language. Children are very quick to learn another temperament's language. Adults can be a little more challenging because they have a lot more pushback, and they come in with a lot more baggage. I actually love working with children.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I'm sure a lot of parents listening will glean some wisdom from you. So could you break down each of those colors and just give us an overview of what that temperament looks like?
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. The yellow is somebody whose basic desire is fun. What you'll find as I go through these temperaments is each temperament has something that's very unique to that temperament that no other temperament shares. [00:05:55]
So what I love about the sanguine, the yellow temperament, is that what is unique to them is their ability to see the best in people first. They see the best in people and the best in circumstances first. This is a person that's just full of life, and they live in the moment, and they just bring life into the room. When we start talking about strengths and weaknesses, though, there's going to be a little bit of a balance with that life that they do bring into the room.
The choleric, that's the red, what's unique to them... this is a person that's basic desire is power or control. This is a person that is a visionary. They can throw a big net and see a goal or a vision as clear as clear can be. This is a dynamic leader that can delegate well, that just excels in emergencies. Again, their ability to see a vision or a goal is very clear.
The blue melancholy, this is a person that's basic desire is perfection or order. [00:06:57] This person's unique characteristic is they can anticipate obstacles. Where a red sees a goal from A to B, the blue can see every obstacle between A and B. And it's because that blue temperament really, even though they're analytical and they're logical, but at the same time they're artistic and creative and musical. So they're able to see things in a dimensional way. So that is very unique to the blue.
The green is our calm and harmonious green. What is their basic desire is peace and harmony. And what is unique to the green is their ability to be calm in the midst of chaos. This is just a very kind soul that can listen well and is a great shepherd or leader of people. I think this is very interesting that they can... in an emergency, they're the ones that are going to be saying, Hey, it's going to be all right. You're going to be fine.
Laura Dugger: I love that. My husband's a green.
Kathleen Edelman: Mine too.
Laura Dugger: Oh, nice. I like all the colors, but I definitely appreciate the greens.
Kathleen Edelman: I agree. [00:08:07]
Laura Dugger: As people are listening, I'm sure they're going to want to start to try and identify their own color. So, first of all, will this manifest itself differently when we're in seasons of health versus seasons of crisis and stress?
Kathleen Edelman: Absolutely. Because you are innately wired for your temperament. Again, personality and temperament are different. Everybody asks me, you know, as you mature and you get older, does your temperament change? That answer is no.
When you really can identify your own temperament is when you are in crisis or when you are alone. Because when you're in crisis or you're alone, your true temperament will surface. So you can try to be a different temperament or maybe somebody's telling you to be a different temperament while you're at work or at a mom's group or something. But when you get home and you're alone or you're in crisis, we really have to pay attention to what we're naturally thinking. How would we naturally, truly, authentically, organically respond to different things? And that's your true temperament. [00:09:15]
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's helpful. I'm even thinking there are so many moms listening. I'm curious, and this is a personal one.
Kathleen Edelman: Sure.
Laura Dugger: This is something that's confused me because I've always thought I was yellow-green. But there's so many tasks in motherhood that I feel like I've had to adapt and become more okay with doing the tasks instead of just focusing on the people. So what would you say to somebody trying to figure that out?
Kathleen Edelman: First, I love, love, love young moms. And I love parenting because, again, I just see the benefits day in and day out of understanding this, understanding yourself, like you just asked that question, and then being able to pour into your children's love tank and raise them up in the way they should go, right? Not the way we want them to go.
The yellow-green temperaments are both people oriented. What I would love to stress in all this as you're learning is you were chose to be your children's mom specifically. [00:10:17] So you have every skill and every talent needed to be the best mom for those children. So we really have to believe in our wiring.
Even though you're people oriented, you have the skills and the strengths to do what's necessary, even in a task mode, to be the best parent for your children. You do not have to become a different temperament to tackle those tasks. You can use your gifts to learn a skill, but it's still going to be within your temperament.
Laura Dugger: You're such a natural encourager, Kathleen.
Kathleen Edelman: Well, I believe that I've seen it, Laura, so many times that the aha moments that go off first with the acceptance of how you're wired, and then the awareness of what that means in your behavior and in your words. And then when you start to apply it, it becomes authentic. I would never want the temperaments to be something anybody does. I want it very much to become who you are.
Laura Dugger: And I think that will provide an option for freedom for everyone listening, because we would love for them to not only identify their own temperament, but also be able to recognize other people's temperaments, hopefully by the end of our chat.
Kathleen Edelman: Yeah. [00:11:32]
Laura Dugger: So what is the best way for everyone to discover their true color or temperament?
Kathleen Edelman: Well, of course, the best way is to do the assessment. I Said This, You Heard That book study, because the assessment is written in such a way that if you're really wanting to find out how foundationally you're wired, you will find that out.
For some reason, if you didn't have access to that assessment, if we will just listen to understand people, even yourself, if you listen to the words that you use, and you watch the behavior, and again, what core motivates you, you'll start to see like, okay, I can see that I use planning and strategy a lot. You know, I really get overwhelmed or frustrated. Those are all blue words.
And see, we speak out of our own temperament and we hear in our own temperament. And that's why we have to be very careful that just like you, you're a yellow, and I'm a blue. I have to be able to paradigm shift and listen to you in your temperament, so that I can speak your language, so that you know, I understand you, and I can love you better. [00:12:48]
If I continuously speak out of my own temperament, then there's going to be a gray area between us of misunderstanding, not necessarily intentional, but it's only because we're not paradigm-shifting. We're not shifting to speak out of the other person's temperament so they can hear us better. So listening to your words, listening to what motivates you, but honestly, the easiest way is to do the assessment.
Laura Dugger: I would second that your workbook has been incredible.
Kathleen Edelman: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: It's called I Said This, You Heard That. We can definitely link to that in our show notes.
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Laura Dugger: Back to these colors, do you mind just kind of covering both the strengths and the weaknesses of each? [00:15:01]
Kathleen Edelman: Well, what I can do is I can give you an overview of them because, again, in the book, I've put an extensive list. There's probably 40 strengths and 40 weaknesses for each temperament in the book.
But just to get an idea so your listeners get a feel of each temperament, again, back to that yellow, the yellow is an extrovert. It does not mean they like to be around a lot of people. It means that their thoughts and emotions go outward.
This person has no filter, so they speak out. They are great storytellers. They are curious. They are creative. They are energetic and inspiring. They live in the moment. Like I said, they really see the best in people first. Those are the strengths that make them magnetic.
What happens, though, is in order to really understand our strengths, we have to be aware of our weaknesses. We know it's light in a room because we know dark. We know loud because we know quiet. So in order to really understand a strength is a strength is to know that, yes, I'm a good storyteller, but I can also be a compulsive talker. [00:16:07]
So the yellow can be a compulsive talker. They can elaborate and exaggerate. They interrupt. They can be obnoxious. They can be scatterbrained. And so you want to know that so that you can say, Oh, you know, I have a tendency to be a compulsive talker, but I'm really a good storyteller. So what we're trying to do is stay in the strengths of the temperament that you are.
For the red, they are a dynamic leader. They're born to lead in tasks. Like I said, they excel in emergencies. They delegate well. They're quick decision makers. They're confident in their thoughts and in their leadership. They're very driven. Also, they're very good at setting goals.
But they can be impatient, intolerant. In fact, most reds that are in their weakness talk with a tone that the other temperaments are aware of that a lot of reds aren't even aware of. That bossiness almost can be kind of like being a bully. Again, knowing those help them understand their strengths. [00:17:09]
Laura Dugger: I think it was in your app that you made this observation, that a lot of times reds don't view their weaknesses as weaknesses. Is that right?
Kathleen Edelman: That is absolutely correct. A lot of reds that come in my office, and I have a very big heart for reds, and I'll tell you why, they come in my office, and they either don't want to be red, and I'll explain that in a minute, or they'll look at their weaknesses, and they'll say, I don't see any weaknesses here. How can arguing be a weakness?
So they can spin everything as it's kind of a strength. Because the red's motto is "my way is the right way. I'm right." And usually they are right. These are very smart people. I never want to bring the power bar of a red down. I only want to soften their edges. You can do that by having them realize that, yes, they are right, but there may be another right. Their answer is yes, but it may not be the best yes. [00:18:12]
Where my heart gets heavy with the reds is that all the other temperaments are usually described in their strengths. The reds are not. The reds are usually described in their weaknesses. So I'm trying to change that because reds bring a lot to the table.
It's just that their strengths and weaknesses, if you were to put a descriptive word over all of them, the yellows are loud strengths, loud weaknesses, the reds are powerful strengths, powerful weaknesses. The blues are deep strengths, deep weaknesses, and the greens are peaceful strengths, peaceful weaknesses.
So right there, even in that description, this is a powerful person. So the visual change from a choleric going from weakness to strengths is the most obvious because it is just right out there. The reds are also an extrovert. Again, thoughts and emotions going outward, but they're an extrovert that is task-oriented.
Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating. And I'm thinking of reds in my life. You're right. I really appreciate them. And they make a lot of good things happen. [00:19:23]
Kathleen Edelman: They absolutely do. This is a person that really they can look at any situation and see a goal or have a vision of how it can be better and how it can be accomplished, usually very efficiently.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Let's continue on with the blues.
Kathleen Edelman: Sure. The blues are analytical, logical. They're compassionate and empathetic. This is a person that's very thoughtful. But they can also be critical, judgmental. They can have false humility and remember the negatives. This is a person that can really try to control or get caught up in their moods.
So what we really want to inspire with the blues is what I see a lot of is we really want to make sure we're pouring into the creative, artistic, musical side of the blues. Because a lot of times they're private and their reserved demeanor can make them unapproachable or seem unapproachable when really their biggest desire is just to be included. [00:20:26]
The greens are kind. They are innately kind. They are great listeners. They are kind to the point of being a fabulous leader of people. This is a person that genuinely cares about other people. They're very harmonious. They're the ones that can keep the peace and can bring the contentment of the group around. They're adaptable. They're consistent of character. There's a calmness that comes with them when they walk into the room.
They do not like conflict. They do not like confrontation. And they have no sense of urgency. So what everybody else sees as urgent or that might get done, you're just not going to get that sense of urgency from the green. They just do not have that urgent streak in their body, which can cause a lot of problems.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to get such an overview of each of them. Even in your workbook, you talk about innate needs of each of the colors. So what are those needs of each of the colors and what happens when those needs aren't being met? [00:21:38]
Kathleen Edelman: And that's why we start, Laura, with the strengths and weaknesses, because if you look at your weaknesses and you see what your first go-to or what you're struggling with, then when you talk about the innate needs, they make more sense of what you're trying to fill. What are you trying to fill with excessive compulsive talking or being impatient or moods or being non-confrontational?
Each temperament has innate needs, and the innate needs, this is such the game changer because this is what separates temperament from personality.
The yellow's innate needs are attention, approval, acceptance, and affection. The collared or the reds are loyalty, sense of control, appreciation, and credit for work.
The blue is safety, sensitivity, support, and space and silence.
The greens are harmony, lack of stress, feeling of worth, and respect. [00:22:43]
These things you have been trying to fill since you were a child. This is like food and water. So when you're talking about strengths and weaknesses and when you're talking about understanding communication, everything that you do, these are your core motivators. This is why you do what you do.
Now, what happens is, I call it the love tank. This is the easiest way to do it. If your innate needs or your love tank is filled with your strengths, then you're in your calling and purpose. Then you have something to give because you cannot give what you don't have.
So when you understand yourself authentically and you're organically filling these needs because you understand them and you understand the definition, then you have something to give another person. If you're trying to fill these needs with your weaknesses, it's like your love tank has a crack in it. It's going to seep out and it's going to create what I call a manipulate spy. [00:23:44]
If you are, for example, compulsively talking and you're being obnoxious and you're trying to get approval and acceptance as a yellow filled with these weaknesses, pretty soon that's not going to work anymore. And then you're going to try to start charming people and have flattery conversations with people. That's your manipulate spy.
For the red, the manipulate spy is tone and volume. If they are saying to their kids, get in the car, get in the car, and the kids aren't getting in the car and they become impatient and intolerant, what's going to happen is their voice is going to go up in volume and their tone is going to get more commanding. And it's only because instead of using their strength, they're using their weaknesses. For the blue, it's moods and silence. For the greens, it's procrastination and withdrawal.
So, again, it's standing back and understanding these innate needs, not just knowing the words, but you want to be able to put definitions with them. See, that's the game changer.
For example, Laura, you're yellow, right?
Laura Dugger: Right.
Kathleen Edelman: So one of your innate needs is attention. You want to know between you and God, what does attention mean to you? Like, how are you going to love yourself better? How are you going to give yourself attention? How are you going to articulate that to your husband? How am I going to help fill that as your friend? If you don't know it, then how am I going to know it, right? [00:25:13]
Laura Dugger: Definitely. And so you encourage everybody to answer these questions for themselves to define it.
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. I have to be able to know what safety means to me and sensitivity means to me before I can expect my husband to know how to talk to me or my children or you as a friend. But what it really comes down to is I have to be able to do that for myself. I have to get to a point where I captivate my thoughts and make them honorable, and I'm speaking positive and encouraging and loving self-talk to me. Just like Ephesians 4:29. It says, "Do not let," that means it's a choice, "any unwholesome words."
That first starts with my self-talk. Am I building myself up according to my needs so that I have something to give my husband, you know, so that I have something to give my children? And then once I know that, then I can talk to my husband and say, hey, this is what safety means to me. [00:26:13] And then that allows him some direction to be able to see through my blue lens from his green lens and choose to love me better.
Laura Dugger: I would love to have a few examples as well. If you've done this work, what are some ways that you personally get that space or security or safety that you need?
Kathleen Edelman: Well, let me talk about when I was a young mom and I was doing this when my children were in school. One of my needs is space and silence because I'm an introvert. The blues are introverts, which mean, again, not that I don't like to be around people. It means that my thoughts and emotions go inward.
So I'm a processor. I'm an introvert that's task-oriented, where the phlegmatic is an introvert that's people-oriented, which we can talk about that, too. So the space and silence for me meant that when I came home, I asked my kids to wait on their questions. I'm going to go into my office for five minutes. It was never a long time.
I went into my office and I closed the door and I had space and silence, and I was able to process the day for a few minutes and just get my thoughts organized. [00:27:26] And when I came out of my office, I was a better mom because I was able to just get to a place where now I could love on my kids without feeling overwhelmed, you know, or that I had too many plates spinning. You know, we have to be able to look at that and do for ourselves so that we can be better parents and better wives and better friends.
Laura Dugger: Those stories are always helpful if we could just go around to the colors because you've coached so many people of different colors. So for a green, what would that respect or did you say desire for peace or harmony?
Kathleen Edelman: Yes, they have harmony, lack of stress, feeling of worth and respect. Again, what I did for the people that are going to do the study is I put in their examples of the ones I've heard over 30 years that I've heard the most of from each temperament.
For example, feeling of worth for my husband, who happens to be green, his definition was that when there was a big decision to be made that he was given the time to think it through. [00:28:30] And before a decision was made for anything that he would be asked his opinion or his idea of it. Because greens have great opinions and great ideas. They're just very quiet people and they don't always advocate for themselves.
So to show him respect and feeling of worth, I always would ask, hey, what's your input? What are your ideas on this? It's really valuable to me to know what you're thinking.
Laura Dugger: That's a great example. I think my husband would definitely relate to that as well.
I just want to say thank you to someone who left this personal review and five-star rating and review on iTunes. From Ashley Ditto, she writes, "Today I found this because of Rach Kincaid and I'm so thankful I did. What an amazing podcast. So much wisdom in the episodes." Thanks so much for taking the time to leave that review.
And what about the yellows? What story can you think of?
Kathleen Edelman: The yellows... this would be my daughter. So what's very interesting is when you read the definitions of what attention or affection mean to a yellow. But I'll use attention right now because attention most of the time yellows are like, Oh, they want to be center stage or they just want to be the life of the party. [00:29:44] That's not necessarily the truth.
What attention means to my daughter is that when she does have a story to tell me, is that I stop what I'm doing and I make eye contact with her. That shows her that I'm engaged and I am giving her the attention and priority that she's craving. Can you relate to that being a yellow?
Laura Dugger: Very much relate to that and her example more so than being center stage. So that's interesting.
Kathleen Edelman: Yeah. And see, those descriptive words are what fall under personality. And that's what I try to get people to understand when they're learning the temperaments is that we're not about descriptive words. We're not about "Oh, Laura's funny. Oh, she's yellow. You know, and Joe, oh, he's a good leader, he's red." That's not what temperaments is. All the temperaments can be funny. All the temperaments can be good leaders. It's really defining these innate needs.
Laura Dugger: Let's finish with the reds then as well. What stories or illustrations do you have? [00:30:46]
Kathleen Edelman: The biggest one for reds by far in the 30 years I've done this, most of the time they'll talk about loyalty. I just had another young lady who's a very red talk about how she was so moved with her team at work, because there was a discrepancy. And she found out that every single person on her team relayed back to their boss's boss, that what this young lady had done was the exact right thing and that she was doing it for the group.
So what they basically were filling for this girl was loyalty. Like they had her back. They showed her that our word is our word. You know, we said we would support you and we're doing it. So that's big for a red.
Laura Dugger: I just think that it's exciting to come up with ways to genuinely build up others around us, especially in a way that they can most resonate with. So what words or phrases do each of the temperaments need to hear? [00:31:50]
Kathleen Edelman: Well, again, when you start learning the language of each temperament, where I ask everybody to start kind of like a cheat sheet would be to use words right off those charts of like the innate needs and the strengths and weaknesses.
So for a yellow, you want to let them know that, hey, you approve of what they're doing. They don't have to change a bit. I would love to give you my focus and attention in your story. You can use the words right off the charts that I've created.
For the reds, it can look like, Hey, I'm loyal to you. I got your back. I appreciate how much work you've put into this. That was a lot of physical work. I don't think anyone else could have done it. See, again, I just used words right off the innate needs chart.
Same for the blue. Hey, I'm a safe place to be. I'm very sensitive to what you're saying, and I want to make sure I understand it so I can give you the support that you need. Just easily the words right off the chart.
Then for the greens, it could be something like, I respect your decision. You are such a value to this team. If you weren't here, it wouldn't have went the way it went. So we really appreciate your input. It really went smoothly. [00:33:03]
So even in those four scenarios I just did, I used three or four of the innate needs right off the board. But I did not change who I was, Laura. That's the key thing, is I'm not becoming a different person. I'm just choosing to love those people better with the words that I'm choosing to give life to.
Laura Dugger: That is very life-giving to hear it in your own preferred language.
Kathleen Edelman: Exactly. I like that preferred language. I like that.
Laura Dugger: Then you've also mentioned that beyond our dominant color, we have a secondary color. So how do we identify that secondary temperament?
Kathleen Edelman: It will come up on the assessment. As you start really listening to yourself and people, you'll start seeing the difference in the temperaments. Like, I'm a blue-green. If I was sitting by a blue-red, it would only take a short amount of time for you to start seeing the differences between that person and me.
Again, most likely it would be in the words that we use. [00:34:06] Where I might say, "I don't know, I think we should plan this lunch. But whatever restaurant you want to go to, I'm fine with." Where the blue might say, "Oh, I'm good planning this lunch, but I think we should go to XYZ restaurant." Do you see the difference?
Laura Dugger: Yes. The blue-green first and then blue-red.
Kathleen Edelman: Exactly. So again, if we would just listen to understand instead of listen to respond, you would get so much more information.
Laura Dugger: Do you think that even this workbook is a tool for people to become better listeners?
Kathleen Edelman: I would hope so. I mean, that's really one of my goals because you have two ears and one mouth. Remember that when you were little? We have to even listen to what we're saying to ourself. Because if you're putting Ephesians 4:29, you have to think about that. Are you saying to yourself life words or are you saying to yourself death words? Are you really lifting yourself up according to your needs or are you really undermining yourself?
One thing I want to make clear, the temperaments, there's two extrovert, there are two introvert, there's two task and there's two people. [00:35:12] When you do the assessment, you are a dominant and a secondary. If you were to look at the chart in the book, the yellow and the red are on the top from left to right, and the bottom from left to right would be the green and the blue. The top is extrovert, the bottom is introvert, the left are people-oriented, the right are task-oriented. When you do the assessment, you are either horizontal or vertical. You are usually never diagonal.
Laura Dugger: With your secondary, do you ever see people that come in with a clear dominant, but then the colors right next to them are pretty equal?
Kathleen Edelman: I do. If that happens, usually if you will concentrate on your dominant, you'll start to see a bigger spread between the secondary and the third temperament that's come up. If you don't see that, you might want to... and this is like 2.0. The third temperament may be something called masking, which means that there was trauma or abuse or grief. 85% of what I see, Laura, though, is caused by some kind of parenting. [00:36:22] That's causing you to not be your authentic self.
We would want to kind of look at that and see why are we reaching over into that temperament instead of really being organic in the ones that we were wired for. Again, not necessarily intentional, but just that you may have two overlapping blue parents with a yellow child. All that child's hearing is, stop wiggling, you're too loud, quit moving, or you're embarrassing me.
As those words come out, for a visual, they're kind of dulling the sparkle of that yellow child. Again, it's just that the blue parents aren't understanding the language of the yellow child. That's why, especially in parenting, this is so incredibly important.
Laura Dugger: And I just want to make sure that I clarify to understand this correctly. So you said that's the third temperament. So that would be if somebody, let's use that example, that they have two blue parents, they're yellow, so how would their test results present? [00:37:25]
Kathleen Edelman: It may look like they're very dominant yellow. They come in and they have a green secondary, but right on the tails of that green secondary is a very strong blue. We would have to go, hmm, why is that there? What is causing that to be there? Because it's really not innate to a yellow to have a high blue like that.
Laura Dugger: Okay, that makes so much sense. What if it's somebody that is a yellow and a split between green and red?
Kathleen Edelman: That's somewhere where we would really just have to find out... focusing on the dominant, you would see the true secondary start to surface. And which one starts to get wobbly. Or again, a lot of times, Laura, this is a miscommunication in descriptive words. So people will circle certain words in the assessment. They're not necessarily thinking about themselves on their very best day. They might be thinking of themselves situationally, instead of just their core motivator and they're circling something that may be a confusing descriptive word between a red and a green. [00:38:37]
What I mean by that is I have people come in my office and they're like, Oh, my son's a red. He's angry and he really wants his way all the time. Then I meet the child and they're really very green. Greens are the most stubborn and by far the most strong-willed on the board. But see, we've been told and we're getting mixed up in the personality stuff that we're assigning that person to a red just because of the strong will and the stubbornness. See, this is why knowing these temperaments to the core, then you can just start having discernment about really what is which temperament.
Greens really only do things they're interested in or they're absolutely responsible for. Everything else, they really have no sense of urgency about.
Laura Dugger: Sometimes are greens... do they come across as more direct than reds if it is their stubborn streak?
Kathleen Edelman: Oh, absolutely. If they're interested in it, they can be very stubborn. And they'll know everything about it and they can even come across as kind of a know-it-all. And especially where you also see the stubbornness is if it's something they're not interested in and you are pushing them. [00:39:48]
A green can take pushing for a very long time. But when they're pushed into a corner, they're going to do one of two things. They're going to fight or they're going to flee. And usually they'll flee. They'll flee the room. They'll flee the team. They'll flee the marriage. They'll flee the work.
But if they decide to fight, Laura, they can make a choleric look like a kitten because it is so volatile. And a lot of times it looks like it comes out of nowhere, like you're kind, quiet little girl, and all of a sudden she explodes. And you're like, Where did that come from? Well, she's been pushed and pushed and pushed till she can't be pushed anymore.
And it could have been something that happened six months ago. Whereas if she was red, you would know about it immediately. They don't wait six months to tell you.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is so helpful. All right, friends, after Kathleen and I recorded, we realized that we had way too much information to pack into one episode. So we're going to pause this conversation here and hope that you're going to join us again tomorrow.
You don't want to miss part two, because that's where Kathleen is going to teach us how to apply this knowledge on temperaments to improve our parenting and marriage relationships. We look forward to seeing you back tomorrow. [00:41:04]
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:42:10]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:43:12]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:44:10]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.