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Monday Apr 27, 2020
Monday Apr 27, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
101. Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
**Transcription Below**
Song of Solomon 4:7 (AMP) “O my love, you are altogether beautiful and fair. There is no flaw nor blemish in you!"
Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).
Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Samaritan Ministries is a Biblical way to help your family and care for your brothers and sisters in Christ. Every month, Samaritan members help one another with their medical needs by praying for and providing financial support. You can learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen returns today as our three-peat guest. We are talking about sexual intimacy in the context of marriage, and we are planning to cover three themes: Turnoffs, turn-ons, and ways to enjoy sex more than we currently do.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Konzen.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's great to be here. [00:01:18]
Laura Dugger: Well, you are a friend of The Savvy Sauce since the beginning. We're going to put a link in the show notes so everyone can easily click on our previous chats together. But for today, let's begin here. How did you decide to work in this field?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, specifically in the field of sexuality, I was in the middle of getting my doctorate in psychology, and I took a required class on couples counseling. Most of the class was focused on intimacy, and I had to do an assignment. I had to interview a couple, and then I had to write and create an intervention for the couple.
So the couple I interviewed had a hard time talking about sex openly. They had a good sexual relationship and a good marriage, just a hard time talking about it for various reasons. So I created this intervention, and I presented it in class, and my professor said, "That's your dissertation." [00:02:20]
It became my dissertation, and it became what I studied for the next five years. Then I specialized in a certification for sex therapy. So it just rose out of a need to help people talk more openly around sexuality. So yeah, out of a class assignment. Go figure.
Laura Dugger: Go figure. You are such an overachiever and a very naturally gifted communicator, so I can see where that opened up doors on your path.
I know that you've had years of experience. So what have couples consistently told you is a turnoff, both for men and women?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, the number one is conflict. The number one turnoff is when there's either been conflict ongoing in their relationship, and so therefore they're not wanting sexuality in any form or some forms, or the conflict just happened and it's unresolved. [00:03:26] So it doesn't sound like a typical turnoff in the sense of like, Ooh, your breath smells bad. And let me tell you, those come up too. You know, please shower, all of that. But the number one is the verbal, especially conflict.
Now, it's interesting because I was sharing this with somebody, and they said that for them, talking about serious issues was a turnoff. And I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "Well, when it becomes an argument." And I was like, "Yeah, that's exactly it."
It's not the talking about the serious issue that's the problem. Like, let's say that happens, you know, 30 minutes before someone's going to have sex. It's the fact that that serious issue turns into some kind of conflict between them.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And that's for men as well.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Oh, by far. It's the number one thing that men should bring up and the number one thing that women bring up. I would say the men might word it differently. When she speaks in certain tones. In fact, the feeling of being demeaned in any way for men is on the larger scale. [00:04:29] And so that will come up in the argument when she uses certain phrases. Then anger for women. So they phrase it differently, but it's the same issue.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is interesting. I'm sure if women are critical or contemptuous, that would feel disrespectful and be a turnoff for a man. And then you mentioned anger. Are there any other topics that are considered turnoffs commonly?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, it's really interesting as people do bring up things like body odor and breath and, you know, things that have to do with the five senses. You know, smell, touch, sight. So people will bring up concerns that their spouse has turned off by looking at their body. That comes up a lot.
But as far as this turns me off, I would say 90% of the time what they're talking about is conflict. [00:05:32] So not the senses. They do talk about the senses in terms of what turns them on, but not as far as turnoffs. Not as often anyway.
Laura Dugger: Okay. I want to go a little bit further with that just to clarify. So you're saying the husband or wife may be concerned about their own body image. Is that what you're saying? They're concerned about that with their spouse, but that's actually not what their spouse is saying is a turnoff.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Correct. Now, they might individually in my office say, "I'm not attracted to my spouse and I think it affects my desire levels for sex." That happens. But honestly, that's pretty rare. It's usually the partner who feels like their partner thinks their body is unattractive that then affects their level of desire, interest, turn on for sex. So it's more the "I think you're thinking this." [00:06:31]
Laura Dugger: That is profound. Let's stay on body image for just a moment. Most people are probably aware that body image affects sexual intimacy, but we often don't hear any details beyond that fact. So will you unpack this a little bit more and share specific body image struggles for both genders?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Body image is a pretty big piece. Well, when we wrote our book, we dedicated a whole chapter to it for that reason, because self-consciousness in the midst of sexuality, self-consciousness about the body is known through research to cause all kinds of different challenges. It'll cause a challenge with sexual functioning itself.
So that can be with erectile functioning as well as the ability to reach orgasm and experience arousal. And that self-consciousness becomes a withdrawal. So it affects the quality of the time together.
And you would think it would just be a female thing. [00:07:33] It's not at all. The very, very first couple I did sex therapy with his was he had a lot of hair on his back and he would feel really self-conscious whenever she would touch his back. And hers was that she had extra weight on her body. So whenever he would touch her stomach, she would withdraw. And they had never talked about it ever.
And just breaking that barrier of not being able to talk about it was really quite a shift for them. So, yeah, it comes up for men and women across the board.
Laura Dugger: Would you say it affects around 100% of people or is that too strong?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: With the couples that I've seen, I've literally had probably two that just it wasn't an issue. And you would think these were the slim in shape couples. Yes. In one... no, probably three couples. Two of the couples, young, slim in shape, didn't even cross their minds. [00:08:31] But one of the couples was they were both obese, actually, and they both really enjoyed each other's bodies and never worried about it.
So I've worked with people who are what you would consider, you know, on the front of a magazine, gorgeous, beautiful, both men and women. And the concern about body image isn't just for those who the world even might consider less attractive.
In fact, those who would be considered on the high end of attractiveness have very strong concern about negative views of their own body. So it's pretty much across the board, across gender, and across even cultural barriers.
Laura Dugger: Why do you think that is, that someone who may appear perfect in appearance to others, why are they the ones that often struggle with this shaming or critical self-talk?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, it can come from super early on. I mean, it really almost isn't connected to what they look like as the person talking to me. Like, you know, here they are in their mid-20s, mid-30s and on that beautiful end of the scale, you know. [00:09:39]
But the message is they've been getting their entire life either to themselves or from media or from their family are pretty strong. They've had, Oh, you know, make sure not to eat that messages since they were young. You know, they've watched their parents.
Often what you'll have is women with their children, the moms are making comments about their own dieting and how they need to lose weight. So this child is hearing comments about other people's bodies. And so they're applying that to themselves at 8, 9, 10 years old. And then they're still applying at 20, 30 years old.
So you've got family messages that are negative about their body or family messages that are negative about their own bodies or about someone else's body. It's very common for people to tell me about comments that their siblings or parents made about another sibling's body or somebody else's body as they were walking past them out in public. [00:10:36]
So you've got family messages about the body, which is huge. And that even with somebody that maybe doesn't have any typical problems with weight, they're concerned about it because they've heard those messages for so long.
Then you've definitely got the huge piece on media that can't even be measured how big that is. And then honestly, that message gets stamped in religious communities big time on this is more spiritual. And so, yeah, the negative view of the body is across the board.
Laura Dugger: What you just said there at the end, what do you mean it gets stamped in religious communities?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: So you'll notice you'll get women sitting around a table at a church lunch and pay attention to what they're talking about. Across the board, you'll get lots of comments on what you call fat talk, which is that they're talking about their diets and that there's no calories in this food because you're not eating it with a fork. [00:11:32]
So women will sit around even at a social function, including church functions, and they're having this conversation about their diets and what they're eating and how many calories are in things. This is happening everywhere.
And then you've got zillions of websites that will connect thinness with spirituality. So that message gets stamped in workshops and lessons from the podium, during a sermon, on a website, in a book, that spirituality is connected to what your body looks like.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So there are definitely some deep roots in these issues. And then I'm curious, how does that negative body image then affect our sexual desire and our sexual pleasure?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: The self-consciousness that happens makes it especially difficult. I would say it comes up the most with women. [00:12:32] It definitely comes up with men.
But let me just explain it with women. So when women will have that message, they feel uncomfortable being naked in front of their husbands. They don't want to dress in front of their husbands. They don't get out of the shower without covering up because they're worried about what their husband might be thinking.
The husband might be like, I love looking at her body. I love seeing her naked, but she's not feeling that for various reasons. So it'll affect way before they even get into the bed. Then definitely, nakedness in and of itself is what's often happening with sexuality. Some people do have sex when they're still slightly covered.
So there they are, naked in that bed and all of that self-consciousness is there, and so the ability to relax and really enjoy the orgasmic and arousal response is difficult. So it cuts it off at both ends. It cuts arousal and turn-ons before things even start. And then it affects it while things are going.
Laura Dugger: So a very negative impact that it has. [00:13:32] Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: I remember this from graduate school. We were always taught that the brain is the most important sexual organ. So how can we understand and apply this truth in order to override these negative body image issues and negative self-talk?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, cognitive behavioral therapy would approach it... so this is one of the main approaches that has been studied and researched. [00:15:37] They would approach it with a bit more of a clamp down on it, get rid of it, get it out of your mind.
I would say actually I use acceptance commitment therapy, which is ACT, A-C-T. ACT. And I would say when those sentences come into your mind, when those feelings enter your body, they're kind of common. They're normal. And to be able to say... and so this is the brain part of things. To be able to notice the thoughts, notice the feeling, notice the sensation in your body, and to be able to say to yourself, well, I understand why this thought's here. You know, I can be insecure about my body, so it's understandable that this thought is here in my brain.
And then that acceptance piece of "it's understandable this thought is here" instead of "get away from it, get away from it, ignore it," which doesn't work anyway, is a huge piece of shifting the thinking. [00:16:35] So accepting the thought.
And then how do we replace that thought with a thought that might be based on our values? I love the approach in ACT, acceptance commitment therapy, with what they do is they work a lot on values, which matches a lot with those with religious beliefs.
What are my values? Let's say I'm engaging with my spouse, and my values about my time with my spouse are to be loving and giving and to have fun. So now I'm going to say, "Hello, thought. I know that you're here. I understand why you're here. However, right now, I am going to..." And then you go into your valued choice of I'm going to go ahead and give to my partner and be real and genuine with my partner and let myself enjoy the sensations that I'm experiencing in this time.
So that would be, wow, in the quickest nutshell, I've probably ever done an explanation of the process I do with those kinds of thoughts. [00:17:35]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I want to hear more about these values. Could you give an example of what that might look like in a real-life couple?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I actually do bodywork from early on so that it's value-oriented. With individuals. I will encourage them to really look at the scriptures, Psalm 139, that God made us while we were still knit in our mother's womb and then throughout the scriptures. But my favorite is you are fearfully and wonderfully made.
So there's often a relearning of the view of the body that has to occur for the individual. I have some exercises I send people home with to really relearn God's view of their body.
I always joke, you know, like the Bible says that you're fearfully and wonderfully made. The word "fearful" actually means.. it's the same word we use in the scriptures about that we are to approach God with fear and trembling with awe. Like, wow. That that's the word that's used about how your body is made. [00:18:34]
And when's the last time you were naked standing in front of a mirror and you said, Wow, my body is awesome. But God did such a good job. So, you know, we don't do that.
So it starts with the individual view of the body. Then I have couples do exercises where they talk about that really openly as they face each other fully clothed. Then they do that exact same exercise talking about their bodies as they face a mirror standing next to each other. And then as they do it partially clothed to naked and then naked in bed.
So I have a process I take them through to sort of desensitize these negative views of the body, to just kind of normalize those negative views and to still be fun and giving and real with each other. That these are things that people think. How do we still be giving in the midst of those thoughts so that those thoughts don't control what we do?
Laura Dugger: And I don't want to go on too much of a tangent, but I'm loving this explanation of ACT. [00:19:36] Could you say what it means again?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. Acceptance Commitment Therapy. You can actually go on Amazon and there's several popular books. It's one of the approaches to therapy that's super generous.
You can do what you call a values clarification tool. It's really lovely. You can Google it and go do it and talk with someone about it so that you can make valued choices instead of automatic reaction choices.
Laura Dugger: That seems like it would apply even in other areas where I've heard-
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Oh, yes.
Laura Dugger: I mean, for example, somebody who had experienced trauma and they were hypervigilant a lot. So they would say, "Hello, hypervigilance. I can feel you." But plain old vigilance will do the job any day.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. Any day. Yeah, all emotional states. I actually just had a client that they're missionaries south of the border here. So they're in Mexico. [00:20:35] We did therapy for several years online, actually. And she sent me this beautiful, lovely set of sketched drawings that exhibit this expression. It's about grief and how I talk to grief, I let it talk to me. I mother it. I let it speak. I don't tell it shh, or be quiet. And then we stand up and we go do the dishes.
And she said, "This reminded me of how we did therapy." And I was like, "Yep." You know, and then we stand up and we go do the dishes. We don't try to get rid of it. We say it's understandable that you're here and now I have some things I need to do.
Laura Dugger: Well, my hypothesis is that that type of therapy actually is much more effective than, like you said, stop it. Shut it down. Ignore it.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, I always ask people, "Did it work the last time, and the many times that you've tried to stop it, shut it down? Did it work?" And it's like, "No." [00:21:36]
Laura Dugger: Well, changing the subject now, what are some common turn ons for both genders?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, definitely women will always share romance and dates and non-sexual affection. We tend to think of those things as just women. I think women are just more vocal about it.
But good emotional connection for both genders and ongoing playful touch. When sex becomes a problem, couples stop touching. They stop having playful affection because the partner who's not wanting to have sex or who's feeling reactive around sexuality starts to interpret every touch as he or she is wanting sex. And so they pull back.
One of the biggest things that are a turn-on and that people usually miss from their relationship is playful affection throughout the day. So that's a big one for both. [00:22:36]
And definitely men will say this more often, but women say it as well, that when a partner plans and initiates special stuff sexually, that that's a turn-on. And then not just affectionate touches, but then playful, sensual touches.
So this would be kind of messing around. You're in public and nobody can see what you're doing, but you playfully touch your spouse sensually and make a funny remark in their ear. So I would say the word playfulness is huge. That playfulness around touch and comments and glances at the eyes are definitely turn ons for both men and women.
Laura Dugger: For these couples that come to see you, is there any specific homework you assign to them to enhance their pleasure and intimacy?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Actually, I send them home with a box of cards called the Ungame. I start off with the all ages version and then I go to the couples version. [00:23:34] And then I created cards called the Intimate Marriage cards as well.
So I send them home literally every week to spend five minutes a day talking openly and honestly about, first of all, their overall intimacy and then their sensual intimacy and then their sexual intimacy.
The talking openly and honestly about sex is one of the biggest things that helps people enhance their pleasure and their intimacy. I tell people, go find a good book on sex. I love Douglas Rosenau's Celebration of Sex. We have our book, The Art of Intimate Marriage. Go buy that book, read a chapter, talk about it, read a chapter, talk about it, read a chapter, talk about it. There's something about learning how to talk openly that enhances the whole process.
Laura Dugger: In general, how many couples would you say come into your office that already talk about sex?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: One in a thousand, maybe one in a hundred. I mean, I will occasionally at a workshop have a couple come up and say, "Oh my goodness, this was great. [00:24:37] We talk really openly around sexuality." But those couples don't walk in my office.
Because we know this from research and I know this from my clinical practices. If people are openly and honestly talking about sexuality, they're often not having the problems around sexuality. Like I said, there are some. We do openly and honestly talk, but we're stuck, and so they come to see me.
Laura Dugger: If a couple is already talking about sex with each other, how do you frequently see them getting stuck?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say probably one of the biggest things is although they might be talking openly, they're not actually hearing one another. So the ability to have compassion and empathy and genuinely listen is problematic. But then also sometimes they'll hear the information. They'll genuinely hear the information their spouse might be sharing with them, but they don't know what to do with it.
I'm a pretty active kind of therapist. I'm like, Okay, well, let's try this. [00:25:36] You know, sending home with... I had one husband say to me, "This was so helpful. You gave us the language to be able to say these things. Can you also give us direction on now what to do with this information?" So sometimes people get the information but aren't sure how to put it into practice for various reasons.
Laura Dugger: And I think that would be really helpful then. Could you think of a hypothetical scenario and walk through what you would instruct that couple?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, this wouldn't be hypothetical. It's a real one. They hadn't engaged sexually for 10 years. They had a lot of challenges in their marriage. By the time we got to really directly working on their sexual relationship, they were in a much, much better place.
So they were talking every day because they had my cards. So they were talking every single day openly about sexuality. And she felt like she was super direct. "Let's go spend some time together." In his mind, that meant go cuddle. In her mind, she was like, I'm thinking we're going to have intercourse. [00:26:40]
So in my office, they had to clarify when I use this language, this is actually what I mean. And he had to say to her, I need you to directly tell me that this is what you mean.
Sometimes people have to be open and real and not defensive about the way that they communicate that it might not be clear for the other partner. But then also sometimes, and in this case, this was the truth for this couple and with many others, that he wanted to be more thoughtful and send little playful sexual comments but he didn't think that way. So he set a reminder on his phone to go off once a day and he would send her a little joke by text.
So sometimes people need promptings. Sometimes they need to learn how to communicate more clearly and then they need to be more specific. So I'd say a number of different things.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. And I can see where a third party would be so beneficial there to help get someone unstuck. Let's move on to the final section of this chat, beginning with your opinion on how we can savor sex more than we currently do. [00:27:45]
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: That's a very good question. I'm going to sound like I'm repeating myself. Sexual assertiveness. Helping people be very direct instead of indirect in how they say what they need and what they want. So I would say assertiveness. Is this more of an issue for women? It is.
Women in general they are uncomfortable saying what they like and what brings them pleasure because our culture says that it's negative for women to do that. We don't prioritize female pleasure. I would say that's a huge piece.
Women will say, You know what, I just make it about him. And let me tell you, that hugely affects the level of pleasure that the couple and the partner, the husband and the wife, feel in their sexual relationship.
If you look at it in Song of Solomon, it's not like that at all. They're very, very, very mutual in the way that they interact. So I think that's God's plan that sex be mutually enjoyable. [00:28:48]
So for women, that often means that they need to learn to prioritize their own pleasure and to be assertive with what brings them pleasure. And that might mean when he says, "Hey, do you want to have sex?" it might mean saying, "I am just shot today. Could you give me a back rub tonight? And then we go to sleep. And then how about on Saturday we have some great time?"
This assertiveness could mean a not tonight message that does still prioritize I have a bodily need. And then let's make sure to have some really great time at this time. I teach... I joke... I'm a sex therapist, but I teach people to reject one another. No, to refuse in a way that doesn't feel shaming or like a rejection.
Laura Dugger: That makes it more meaningful when your yes is yes and your no is no.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. You're prioritizing your needs. Not making them above his needs, but you're being assertive with your needs as a female. That's vital. [00:29:51]
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What are all the benefits of mutually agreeing to engage sexually with our spouse on a consistent basis and, dare I say, with enthusiasm? [00:30:51]
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Right? What an idea! Well, I do think in order to get that enthusiasm and in order to get that mutual peace, sometimes what we have to do on a spiritual level is relearn some of the messages we've gotten.
I do a whole section when I'm doing a workshop on relearning 1 Corinthians 7. This whole idea of mutuality that's taught in 1 Corinthians 7 isn't like how it often gets taught, which is it says you're supposed to give to me, so, you know, you're not giving to me, so you better give. And it becomes a demand when actually what 1 Corinthians 7 is talking about is this. I have been given my spouse's body. I am a steward of their body. It's their body, but they are giving authority over it to me. And so I am called by God to steward their body and to bring it pleasure. [00:31:51]
That actually is what 1 Corinthians 7 is teaching, this mutuality of giving, not of, hey, it's your duty, you better do it. The word duty actually in 1 Corinthians 7 is the same idea that's throughout the scriptures that we are so deeply grateful for what Jesus did, therefore we.
That's what the word is in 1 Corinthians 7, not like we think of it's my duty. That the mutual giving to one another, the mutual I want to bring pleasure to, I want to steward my partner's body well, that's aiming for the genuine benefits that God intended for sexuality.
Laura Dugger: You have such a gift of bringing scripture to life. For married couples who have an exciting and fulfilling love life, what have you found to be a few of their secrets?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Definitely even what you just asked about the mutual giving piece. [00:32:52] And then really making sure that things are fun and playful. That's such a big one. Having what I would call sexual play, doing enjoyable, creative new things.
But there is also the reality of, for these couples, they are having sex regularly. "Regular" can be a wide range. They are engaging, so they're respectful, they're fun, they've resolved their conflict well. That's a huge one. I can't emphasize that enough. They've resolved their conflict well. And then they're playful and creative and regular.
Laura Dugger: So it sounds like communication is just a huge thread throughout all of this. Is there anything else on this topic that we've failed to cover yet today?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say the one thing I would emphasize as far as all this about desire is two pieces. One, take the time to relearn your view, your spiritual view of sexuality. Most people haven't done that. They don't even know what the scriptures teach about sex other than don't do it until you're married and things like that. [00:33:56] So relearn your view of sexuality. That's one of the big ones.
Then really making sure to incorporate sensual touch. A lot of times sex goes, we hold hands as we go on our date and then we get in bed and have sex and touch genitals. There's no sensual touch in there. Getting back to good, healthy, sensual touch. In fact, engaging in sensual touch with no sex after. Touching each other, doing all that foreplay stuff, and go to sleep. No intercourse, no orgasm. So returning to good, sensual, playful touch is just vital.
Laura Dugger: As you mentioned this topic of playfulness and fun, could you give a few more examples?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I literally do this as a part of assessing couples. How much do they walk through the house and lightly brush the hand against their partner's buttocks? How much are they leaning across while they're driving in the car and caress their partner? [00:34:55]
Even sexually, essentially. How much are they caressing the thigh as they're sitting next to one another? So not groping and grabbing in the sense of... because women will often say, you know, all he does is grab my boobs or my crotch. Is that what people want? No, not necessarily.
This is a respectful, playful, loving, fun type of sensual touch that is vital to the process of healthy sexuality. The reality is it often takes couples quite a while to get back to that when sex has become problematic.
Laura Dugger: I think you've given everybody a starting place. I appreciate that. Now where can listeners go to learn more about you and your work?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I have a website. It's all one phrase. The Art of Intimate Marriage. It's the name of my book, The Art of Intimate Marriage. So it's TheArtofIntimateMarriage.com.
Then there are podcasts on there. So a lot of different variety of different topics. [00:35:57] A lot of it reflective of the chapters of the book.
And then the books are available on Amazon. So there's The Art of Intimate Marriage. There's also Redeemed Sexuality.
There's the Intimate Marriage cards that are available on the website.
And then we have a new book coming out. I have a new book coming out called The Ransomed Journey, which is a book on couples' recovery from addiction. So specific to sexuality, there's of course a whole chunk on the recovery from sexual addiction. So yeah, any of those listening or reading or playing games tools, those would be good ones.
Laura Dugger: I love that because you've got it for so many different types of learners. If you're visual or through reading, auditory, you've got the podcasts, the interactive cards. Thank you for sharing all that. We'll link to all of that.
Dr. Konzen, my final question for you today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:36:59] So I'd love to know from you, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: The thing I end almost every workshop with, and I don't mean this in a cliché way, is we have to be deeply embedded in not just reading our scriptures and going to church, but in who God is, not just reading our Bible, but what's His character, what's His heart. And that when we have that with Him, it helps us all individually. So I would say this slides over into the part two of what I think is practical, is that we have to be genuine and real and direct. We have to do that in our marriages.
But we also need to have, in a very practical way, other couples in our lives. I can't tell you the number of times I'm working with people that the only person they're talking to openly is me, or maybe their sister or their brother, you know.
Couples do need to be in relationship, in community with others, where they have people that are willing to be honest and open with them, and that they can be honest and open with, and that people will tell them the truth. [00:38:08] That's the whole speak the truth and love out of Ephesians. So the whole realness with God, the whole realness with one another, I would say is the biggest practical that I think is important.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Dr. Konzen, your intentional work continues to benefit people's lives every day. And I hope that you get to leave this time feeling as encouraged as I do. You're so wonderful to interview, and I just always love spending time with you. So thanks for being my guest.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's been lovely. I'm so glad to do it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:39:08] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? [00:40:08] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:41:11] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 20, 2020
Monday Apr 20, 2020
100. The Story of Six Sisters’ Stuff with Lauren Walker
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 16:9 (NIV) “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.”
Lauren Walker is the second youngest sister in the family that runs the blog Six Sisters' Stuff. She grew up in Utah and graduated from Utah State University where she studied Family Science, and went on to run the public relations and create content online with her sisters and their company. She married her best friend and moved out to Sacramento to start a new adventure with her husband and dog before welcoming their first baby last year. She loves working with her sisters, but her favorite thing to do at the end of the day is curl up on the couch with her husband and sweet baby boy, drink a diet coke, and binge watch Boy Meets World!
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Six Sisters’ Menu Planning Website (Use Code SISTERS20 to get 20% Off)
Connect on You Tube, Instagram, and Facebook: @sixsistersstuff
Cookbooks by Six Sisters’ Stuff:
Six Ingredients With Six Sisters’ Stuff
Copycat Cooking With Six Sisters’ Stuff
Dinner Made Easy With Six Sisters’ Stuff
A Year With Six Sisters’ Stuff
Healthy Eats With Six Sisters’ Stuff
Six Sisters' Stuff 30 Minute Recipes
Six Sisters' Stuff Simple One-Pan Dishes
Six Sisters' Stuff: Family Recipes, Fun Crafts, and So Much More
12 Days of Christmas With Six Sisters’ Stuff
Sweets & Treats With Six Sisters’ Stuff
Celebrate Every Season With Six Sisters’ Stuff
Book Mentioned: Letters to a Young Therapist by Mary Pipher
Recommended Recipes and Links from Six Sisters Stuff:
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Equip for Health
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Equip for Health is a health and wellness company that works with anyone who wants to achieve great health through simple, sustainable daily changes.
They are passionate about improving health from the inside out and having a health journey that is both result-driven and enjoyable at the same time. Check them out today at EquipForHealth.com, and make sure you use the code SAVVY at checkout to save 10% on their online course.
Lauren Walker is my guest today, and she is one of the six sisters who started the blog, Six Sisters' Stuff, almost 10 years ago.
She's going to share how this cost-effective way to stay in touch with her family turned into a thriving business that now employs all of the sisters. You will also hear about a specific recipe you should try this week because it's so easy. [00:01:18]
Lauren and I grew up in different states with differing backgrounds and faith, and I learned so much from her down-to-earth approach and kindness during our time together.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Lauren.
Lauren Walker: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Laura Dugger: I'd love to just start off by learning a little bit more about you.
Lauren Walker: Okay. I am number five of all of the six sisters, which is a blog that I have with all my sisters and my mom. I have been married to my sweetheart for two years, and we live out in Sacramento, California.
We have one baby boy. He's 10 months old, and I am just living out here, just working. My husband's job brought us out here, so we're living away from our family, but we're loving it.
Right now, I'm just working. I work on the blog with my sisters, and I'm just trying to juggle being a new mom.
Laura Dugger: Just to gain a bit more context, what was it like growing up as one of six sisters? [00:02:24]
Lauren Walker: Probably just as you're imagining it. It was a lot of fun. There's 12 years between the oldest and the youngest sister, so we're all pretty close in age. At least now it feels like that. Growing up, it was a little bit different having sisters that were way older. It seemed so old being a senior in high school when I was eight years old and my younger sister was only six.
Now that we're all in the same stage of life, it's a lot nicer. We feel a lot closer But growing up, it was just as you think it would be in a house of girls. We fought over the regular clothes and bathroom time and all of those things, but we all pretty much got along for the most part. It was a lot of fun.
Our dad didn't have any sons, so he put us all in sports and tried to push us to be athletic and to be a little bit competitive. It was just a fun childhood.
Our parents were just amazing and they did their best to keep us as a close family, which I think helped us a lot more than they would realize when we ended up all working together. [00:03:28] Now that we're all married and have kids, it's so fun to relate to each other and have people to reach out to for mom advice, making sure we're doing the right thing.
I think I call my sisters like six times a day of like, Is it normal that my baby's only eating bananas or things like that? It's kind of fun to have just these built-in best friends and these best girlfriends to always talk to.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing that and how close you are as adults. That's incredible. Looking back, how do you think your parents were intentional, both in their marriage, because they were raising six kids, and then also in their parenting?
Lauren Walker: As far as their marriage, they were always so, so good at doing date night. I never realized how difficult that was probably for them getting everything arranged for six girls to be babysat or to be left home alone. [00:04:26]
Every Friday, they were going out on their date and leave us with a treat and a babysitter. Once my oldest sister was old enough, they would leave us home with her. They were always so good at just making sure they had that alone time.
Then as far as our family and the parenting, they were just always so good at talking to us. There was always an open communication. We could talk to them about anything. Every day, we'd come home from school, and our mom would just be in the kitchen waiting for us.
There were six seats around my parents' kitchen counter. We'd all just kind of sit on the counter, and our mom would start on dinner, or we would eat cookies and just talk to her. We were able to get to know each other and get to know our mom and be really open about things that were going on.
I think that's where we grew the closest was just those conversations around the counter, which is so funny. Our parents just barely moved out of the house we grew up in. We went to their new house a couple of months ago, and we were like, "Where are we supposed to sit? [00:05:27] Where are we supposed to go? There's no counter."
It was funny because even as adults, we would always go back and just sit around the counter and talk to our mom and just let our husbands and kids go do their own thing. That's kind of where we'd always end up. We grew up in the kitchen. We grew up watching our mom cook, and that's how we became so close.
I'm not sure if it was really intentional, but they did a great job getting us to talk and open up. Now as a parent, I'm just like, "How did they do that?" Especially the date night, I'm like, "How did you get out every weekend?" They did a great job. They're the best.
Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating to hear how that sweet time around the table was so impactful for each of you. Now it's turned into a business that employs each of you. I just think God is always up to something around the table.
It reminds me of this book I read in grad school. It was written by Mary Piper. I think it was called Letters to a Young Therapist. [00:06:29] She talks about the three things that most likely you will remember from your childhood. Your memories often are centered around playing outside, family vacations, and dinner around the table. Thanks for sharing that that was such a value of yours. It's neat to see what it turned into.
Now we can jump to a later part of your story. Where did the idea for a blog originate?
Lauren Walker: Yes, for sure. It was 2011. So back before the times of unlimited text messages and unlimited minutes and all of the luxuries that we live with today.
For the first time, all of us were kind of moving apart from each other. Sisters were getting married and having kids and following their husbands to medical school or jobs and things like that and others were going off to college.
My little sister and I were still at home. We were a senior and a sophomore in high school. [00:07:29] We were just all of a sudden within a year completely separated, which was so crazy and hard for us.
At the beginning, we tried keeping in contact with texting and things. You can imagine those bills piling up very, very quickly. One of my sisters had the idea to start a blog. She had seen some floating around the internet. We knew that anyone could ride on it if you were a part of it. We decided to start one so that we could keep in touch with each other.
That's where we started sharing how much we missed each other and how much we wish we could all be back in Utah. Just kind of like the mushy, gushy stuff. Eventually, my older sisters, who were starting to have kids, started putting on my mom's brownie recipe or my mom's best slow cooker chicken recipe.
They would share those recipes with each other because my mom either had them written down or they were just in my mom's mind. [00:08:28] Because she was amazing and always just knew what she was doing in the kitchen.
Eventually, we started seeing people coming. We had this little thing on the side of our blog that would show us where people were viewing our website from. We saw people coming from New Jersey and New York. I think we saw one all the way over in Australia or something. And we're just this little family from Utah. Of course, we're like, "Oh my gosh, someone in New York. This is crazy." We definitely don't have any family there. We definitely don't have any cousins.
We realized people were searching or Googling mom's slow cooker chicken or super chocolate brownies and things like that and our blog was showing up because at that time, there were not a lot of other food blogs out there or a lot of people sharing recipes online like that.
And so we started posting more recipes. We eventually took off all of the love notes you might say to each other about how hard it is being a new mom and how much we missed each other. [00:09:30]
We took those off and we went to our dad who was this really computer-savvy guy, and we just said, "Is it possible to make money from something like this?" So he researched and did some stuff for us and ended up putting some ads up there so that we could make money off of people coming.
I think we made, in the first month, like 25 cents. Our big dream, our big goal was one day we're going to take our whole family on a cruise. It was going to be this big miracle thing. But we just had no idea back then how much our lives were really about to change. It just kind of snowballed from there.
We jumped on board when Pinterest started. We were one of the first users of Pinterest and grew up. Our Pinterest were pretty big and grew our Facebook and just kept working.
But it's been a lot of fun. It's definitely not anything any of us expected to happen, but it's something that we work really hard at. We love it and we love working together. It's so fun to get to talk, to have an excuse to talk every single day. [00:10:33]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I think stories are so powerful. I'd love to know as we fast forward, two questions. First, did you all get to go on your cruise? And second, what is everyone up to now?
Lauren Walker: We were speaking at an event a couple of months ago and telling kind of our origin story and things like this, and none of my sisters said the goal we had of taking someone on a cruise. And we were all standing up there and we looked at each other and we were like, "You guys, we forgot to go on a cruise. Like we totally spaced it. We just never went." So next year, hopefully, is the goal. But now it's so crazy to think of where we started to now.
We employ all of us, all six of us, and we've hired on our mom. She actually works on the blog just as much as the rest of us do. She just doesn't take any credit. Bless her heart. She's just the best. So she posts just as much as we do. [00:11:30]
We have one sister's husband that's working with us. We have a manager and then a few employees just helping us with our social media and kind of those mundane tasks that are a lot harder for us to manage.
So for the most part, it's just us. We create all of the recipes. We film all of the videos. We kind of just do it all. We still are putting up two to three new recipes each week. We do videos every week. We're posting multiple times a day to all of our social media outlets.
We've also started a subscription service. So we write up menu plans, healthy menu plans, gluten-free menu plans, and we send those out to all of our subscribers. It's just a lot of fun.
We meet once a week over Skype, which is just the best. Every Wednesday night, we have like a two-hour Skype call. And about 30 minutes of it is work, and the rest of it is showing the kids real fast in the camera and talking. And it's just a lot of fun. [00:12:31]
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Lauren, you're talking about where you guys have been and where you're at now, and all of you have families. So for you personally, what does that look like with your balance between work and being a mom? How does that actually play out week to week?
Lauren Walker: Oh my goodness. I wish I could tell you that it was so easy, and I was really good at keeping this scheduled, but it is so, so difficult. [00:14:32] And I'm sure you understand this. There's definitely a lot of mom guilt that goes into it, but I think the easiest thing that I've tried is to have set hours that I am working so that I can focus the rest of my time on a family.
Obviously, with a baby, those set hours are changing day to day because who knows when he's actually going to take a nap. But for the most part, I plan out my weeks based on all of the things that I need to get done and then try and block out a certain amount of time, even if it's just a few hours during a nap or at night when my husband's home and can put the baby down that I'm just focused on work.
I think one of the hardest things to balance being a mom and someone who's working from home or trying to get a business going is knowing when to shut off work and to turn on mom mode or whatever you want to call it. Because oftentimes I'll be sitting in front of the TV and feel like if I'm just sitting here, I should be working. Or if I'm just doing folding the laundry, then I should at least be listening to a podcast about how I can build my business or something like that. [00:15:43]
And so I think knowing when to turn that off and making sure that you still have that time that you are sitting on the ground and playing with your kids or being a wife and making sure you're totally present when you're in those mom and wife moments will make all the difference. Because if you're just constantly working on your project, then I think it's really hard to separate those.
So it's been a doozy trying to figure out and it's still hard. I still have to remind myself, Okay, it's okay that I need to work for this amount of time. It's totally fine. The baby's okay for like 20 minutes in this crib while I do this or, you know, when he's sleeping.
But it's hard. And everyone's different. If you were to interview or talk to any of my other sisters, their answers would be totally different. You just got to find what works for you. But I think separating the work and the mom life is the most important and making sure if those do cross over that... even neither one of them is taking a hit. [00:16:50]
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. I think you make a great point there, too, that for every sister and then even everyone listening, it may look different. But some of our listeners may have their own side hustle going on and maybe they're parent as well. So are you willing to share how you actually generate income from your blog?
Lauren Walker: Yes, of course. There are a lot of different ways to generate income from a blog. Our main ways of generating income on Six Sisters' Stuff are ads on our website, which you'll see through most blogs while you're just scrolling through.
We also have ads on our YouTube channel. We sell and write cookbooks. We are finishing up our 10th cookbook this spring, which is so crazy. So that'll be launching next fall.
We also have a couple of different eBooks that we sell on our website. We have the subscription program, and then we also do paid partnerships with different companies that we enjoy working with. So grocery stores or certain brands of food, since that's kind of our niche. [00:17:55]
Laura Dugger: Did you sisters have to go out and pursue that or did you have some of these advertisers approach you?
Lauren Walker: Kind of both. We've had advertisers approach us. We have a lot of people approach us that are brands that we are personally not passionate about.
We try and only share things that we would really actually use or things that we're already using in recipes and things that we're already feeding our families. We get a lot of people reaching out.
We are Christians and we don't drink alcohol or do those types of things. And so when those brands reach out to us, obviously those are really easy to turn down. But it's harder when a hair care company wants to talk to us and we're like, "Oh, we love hair products and things, but we are a food blog." And so I think it's cool.
But there have been some that we've reached out to ourselves and that we are all passionate about and we wanted to work with them. And so we reached out to them and got even writing free content for them. We just want them to know, like, "We love your product. We're going to look at these blog posts we wrote about your ingredients in this recipe and kind of helped us get a few paid things that we are interested in. [00:19:07]
Laura Dugger: That's helpful to hear one process. Also, how do you market Six Sisters' stuff?
Lauren Walker: Our biggest marketing comes from all of our social media outlets. There are a lot of things that we found work for us and things that we haven't worked. But something that we know will always work for us is advertising on our own social media because the people that follow us there are interested in what we're sharing on our blog.
And so we share all the content that we put on our blog onto our Pinterest channel, our YouTube channel, our Instagram account, our Facebook account. Honestly, I would say that's where 99% of our marketing comes from is just from social media.
Laura Dugger: Who would you say is your typical reader?
Lauren Walker: Our readers are actually, probably not surprising, 95% women and they're all in the age group of 25 to 45. So honestly, we're just writing to ourselves. [00:20:10] It's just us. Our audience is us, which is exactly what we want. Because I think when we're authentic, then our audience feels comfortable being their authentic selves too.
So when we share that we burned dinner tonight, another mom somewhere can relate to us, realizes that we are real people. And so they are more inclined to follow along and to get more recipes and things from us.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I'm sure that you've gotten so many responses from your readers over the years. But what is the best feedback that you've received from your audience?
Lauren Walker: It just honestly means so much to us when we get messages from people thanking us for inspiring them to sit down with their families. Or maybe it's a new mom who just came across some of our freezer meals and they're saving her postpartum, things like that.
It's so comforting to know that all of the hard work that we're really putting in and the sacrifices that we're making are helping someone else. It just makes it worth all of the sleepless nights. [00:21:14] Yeah, it's awesome.
Laura Dugger: Even for you, you said that 10 months ago, you became a first-time mom, but your sisters had had kids. What was it like to go back to your own blog after becoming a mom yourself?
Lauren Walker: I was surprised at the kind of recipes I was looking up before I had a baby. I was probably a much better way than was making homemade enchiladas and delicious soups and things like that. And now I'm like, Okay, slow cooker dump-and-go recipe or something really easy, like a 15-minute chicken recipe or something that I can do a lot faster.
So it's interesting to kind of go from being not in our demographic to being in our demographic and seeing, Oh, my gosh, these really are perfect for a new mom, or these really are perfect for someone who's trying to get dinner out really quick or someone who's not that good at cooking sometimes. You know, it's just comforting to know that the things I'm putting out there really are of value because I'm using them and they're helping me. [00:22:23]
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm also passionate about freezer meals. And I think since becoming a mom, that has become such a priority because it saves time and money and just allows that hour of cooking dinner when it can be kind of crazy with all the kids. It actually makes it much more enjoyable when I've prepared ahead of time. Any tips for me or for any other listeners for best recommendations with freezer meals?
Lauren Walker: Oh, my goodness. I think the thing that's been the easiest for me is... and we eat a lot of chicken just because it seems to be the easiest. But I will just go to Costco and buy one of those big bags of chicken breasts. I think it comes with like 30 chicken breasts in there. And that is awesome. And then you just need a couple of other ingredients.
We actually have a ton on our website that I can send you links to using that big bag of chicken for all of your meals. [00:23:21] We'll stretch it so much because freezer meals, as easy and as nice as they are, they can add up pretty fast because it's buying a lot of food at one time.
And so that's been a way that we've been able to kind of budget our freezer meals is to get one kind of meat in bulk and make a bunch of those. Or if you want to do ground beef ones, browning a ton of ground beef to put into your freezer meals at first so that you're not in the kitchen forever. We have a few different resources on our blog. But the goal for us is to make eight freezer meals in one hour. We totally believe it's possible. You can stack them up in your freezer and be done with dinner for a couple of weeks.
Laura Dugger: I love this idea and this topic. So let's just do a segment of favorites or most popular ideas. So overall, what would you say have been a few of your most popular menu items?
Lauren Walker: The most popular recipe on our website for the past probably four or five years has been our slow cooker Ritz chicken. [00:24:24] I can attest that it is honestly one of the most delicious chicken recipes. My husband begs for it every Sunday.
And it's as easy as sour cream and a can of cream of chicken to mix together. Pour it over some chicken and then you top it with Ritz crackers. And it's so good. It's been the most popular for years. Always our number one viewed recipe.
Laura Dugger: That sounds delicious. Is it if we do post this in our show notes and our resources tab?
Lauren Walker: Yes, of course.
Laura Dugger: Any others that you would recommend? If somebody hasn't been to your blog before and they want to go today and check it out? Any other recipes that you would direct them toward?
Lauren Walker: Over the last year or two, we've really built up our collection of instant pot recipes. We all got instant pots last year and we're all a little bit skeptical. But we had one sister who was really passionate about them and she showed us how amazing they really could be. [00:25:26]
So we have turned a lot of our slow cooker recipes, which were already great to start with, into instant pot recipes. So if you are just starting out with an instant pot or if you're passionate about a slow cooker, I would head to the website because we have some really, really good ones. Chicken, ground beef soups. We have everything you can think of.
We even have a little key on our website to help you convert your own slow cooker recipes into instant pot recipes in case we don't have it on there already.
Laura Dugger: If you're like me, you can't get enough podcasts. I have some great news for you. Did you know that we have bonus episodes only available to paying patrons?
For as little as $5 per month, you can access some of our most exclusive content. Each $5 patron will gain access to all previous podcasts and a secret bonus episode every month. So if you sign up today, you can hear additional conversations with world-known speakers such as parenting experts, Dr. Rob Reno and Karen Stubbs, or medical experts like Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith and Tracy Legrand, along with many more wonderful guests. [00:26:35]
We invite you to sign up today by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking the patron tab. Thanks for your consideration.
How do you and your sisters apply this love of cooking for others to your lives, especially as you're all in different seasons with your own families?
Lauren Walker: I think just the habit that our mom and dad instilled in us about the importance of eating together as a family. I think we do that with our own families. And because we're so passionate about doing that with our own families, it makes it so much easier to keep working and to keep encouraging other families to do that, too.
Because we know how important it is, especially in today's world, it's just so important to have a safe place for our kids to gather together and to be together. And so seeing how much it's impacted our own lives, seeing how cooking really... anyone can do it. [00:27:36]
That's the thing is, a lot of people maybe think we're these professional cookers or we're really good at throwing ingredients together, but we're not. None of us have had any type of professional training. I mean, a few of us graduated from college, but it wasn't like family and consumer science or elementary education.
I mean, we're not professional cooks by any means. And so kind of our whole thing that we want to pound into people's minds is we can do it. You have no problem doing it because I mean, it's so easy to do it. You just have to sit down and plan it out and do it. And so I think being in that stage of realizing how busy these moms really are and seeing how much really is going on. If we can do it, you can do it.
Laura Dugger: I love that encouragement. We've talked about some of your most popular recipes. What's been overall your most popular blog posts? [00:28:43]
Lauren Walker: Surprisingly, the most popular blog posts almost ever on our website, which is crazy because if you look at our website right now, it's just recipes. But back in like 2013, we did a blog post of 30 stay-at-home date ideas. And for some reason, that is the blog post that people always come back to. And we have not revamped it. We haven't gone and updated it, but it's still one of our biggest sources of traffic.
People just find it and they come or they're looking for date ideas at home. That's definitely been the most popular aside from any of our recipes that we put on there.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's hilarious, because I remember reading that. I bet you're right. It probably was 2013. It was years ago. Any interest in going down that route or have you all decided "food is where it's at? We're all passionate about this. This is our jam." [00:29:42]
Lauren Walker: We have pretty much just been focusing on food. We've gone back and redone a lot of our old posts, all of our mom's recipes that were the first ones on there. We've gone and made those posts a little bit more appealing to look at. But we haven't even talked about going back and fixing those, which maybe we should. I'll have to take it back to the group and see what they think.
Laura Dugger: There you go. Not to put something else on your plate. It's doing great what you've got going on.
Well, Lauren, you are so approachable and I've really enjoyed this chat so far. But if listeners want to check out your blog or learn more about you, where can they find you online?
Lauren Walker: Oh, thank you. It's been so fun to be here with you. You can find us on any social media outlet at Six Sisters' Stuff or just at SixSistersStuff.com.
If you're interested in those meal plans that I was talking about, I forgot to tell you, I created a promo code for anyone listening to this podcast. [00:30:41] So if you want to try them out, you can go to SixSistersMenuPlan.com and then use the code Sisters20. You can get 20% off of any of our menu plans.
We have plans for if you have a big family or a small family, if you're gluten-free, if you're trying to be healthy, we kind of have everything for everyone. And we'll send you a shopping list each week and your meals all planned out. So it's a great deal and totally worth it. I use it every single week, so I can attest that it is a great thing.
Laura Dugger: We will absolutely link to that in our show notes and in our resources tab of our website. And you said the code is Sisters20. Is that right?
Lauren Walker: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Perfect. Okay, well, Lauren, I just have one final question for you today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you, what is your savvy sauce? [00:31:43]
Lauren Walker: I think my savvy sauce or my kind of my tip to anyone listening, especially if you're someone who's starting to try something up or someone, even just a mom, don't compare where you are now to where someone is ahead of you, because it's totally different.
Whether you're viewing them on social media or whether you're seeing a blogger or an influencer getting all these great brand deals or making a lot of money, don't compare their success to where you are right now, because there's a lot more that goes into it than it looks like. And you just keep doing you and you're going to do great.
I think that's my savvy sauce. Just focus on yourself, focus on your family, and focus on your passions. And whatever you set your mind to, you can do it and you can be successful. If you're passionate about it, someone else is passionate about it, too.
Laura Dugger: Lauren, you are so genuinely kind, and it has been so easy just to chat with you today. [00:32:45] Clearly, God has blessed your business. I'm so grateful for the work that you and your sisters and your mom and your team do. So thank you for sharing your journey with us today.
Lauren Walker: Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:33:46]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:34:45] We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. [00:35:46] We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Tuesday Apr 14, 2020
Tuesday Apr 14, 2020
COVID-19 Bonus Episode: Thriving with Kids at Home During Quarantine with Amanda Leman
Philippians 3:20 (NIV) “But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,"
Amanda Leman has been married to Drew for almost 20 years (nearly half her life)! Together they have three kids: Will (15), Miles (11), and Simone (9). Their family loves to travel, both trying new places and visiting spots they have been over and over again. Amanda was a Realtor for 7 years, then took off 10 years to stay at home with her kids, and now she works from home as an Assistant to a Realtor. She also fills in as a baker at a local restaurant, 430 Scones. She has relied on her faith in Jesus to thrive during this quarantine.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Mango Website for Learning Languages
Clean Mama on Instagram @cleanmama
Andy Stanley’s Message How to Win at Life
Sermon on Kindness with Dr. James Merritt
Rhythms of Renewal by Rebeka Lyons
Adventures in Odyssey Club Free Trial
Free Homeschooling Planner by Lara Casey
Nature Scavenger Hunt Free Printable
Picture Books Being Read Aloud Online:
Mary Penn Reading Aloud on Facebook
Instagram @readinglegacies (Every Monday, Wednesday & Friday in April, they'll be posting a new read-aloud video for the whole family to enjoy. 📚)
Amanda’s Favorite Chocolate Chip Cookie Recipe:
3/4 Cup Sugar
3/4 Cup Brown Sugar
1 Cup Butter (Softened)
1 Egg
2 and 1/4 Cups Four
1 tsp Baking Soda
1/2 tsp Salt
1/2 tsp Vanilla
12 oz. Chocolate Chips
Mix together sugar, brown sugar, butter, vanilla, and egg. Combine flour, baking soda, and salt. Add flour mixture to sugar mixture. Stir in chocolate chips. Bake at 375 degrees for 8-10 minutes
Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned:
Episode 21: Promoting a Family Culture of Reading with Blogger, Megan Kaeb
Episode 22: Inspiring Your Children to Be Readers, Part 2 with Blogger, Megan Kaeb
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Apr 13, 2020
Monday Apr 13, 2020
99. Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit
**Transcription Below**
“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.” -Isaiah 53:5 (NIV)
Sandy Feit was born in 1950 and raised in a Conservative Jewish family. She unexpectedly met her Messiah in 1980 and has been on a grand spiritual adventure ever since. By day, Sandy works as Senior Copy Editor and staff writer for In Touch Ministries, and every Friday night, she can be found at her favorite place on earth—family dinner with her three children and eight grandkids.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Sandy Feit’s Writing Collection
The Good and Beautiful God by James Bryan Smith
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Samaritan Ministries and Chick-fil-A East Peoria
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:01] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: In the midst of a health care crisis, you don't have to feel isolated and alone. Samaritan Ministries connects Christians who support each other through prayer, encouragement, and financial support for medical needs. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Thank you to Chick-fil-A East Peoria, one of our sponsors, for today's episode. You can place a mobile order for their drive-thru or for curbside pickup. Learn more at cfaeastpeoria.com.
Sandy Feit and I originally met each other through her daughter, Jackie Coleman. I consider Jackie one of my dearest friends and I hope you had a chance to listen to her episode on friendship back in October of 2018.
And now we get to sit under Sandy's teaching on Sabbath. We will cover the history of this gift and unpack how to incorporate this rhythm of rest into our lives today, if we so choose. [00:01:23]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sandy.
Sandy Feit: Thanks, it's nice to be here.
Laura Dugger: Would you just start us off by sharing your story with us?
Sandy Feit: Sure. I was brought up in Providence, Rhode Island in the 1950s, and we had a sizable Jewish community, which was pretty insulated. And this all felt normal to me, but now looking back, I think it's likely that it was related to how recent the Holocaust was. So it made sense that there was this self-protective reaction against assimilation.
But what that meant for me was I grew up with an attitude of us versus them, where "us" was anyone Jewish, and "them" was everybody else. It didn't matter whether they were friends of Israel, lovers of Jews, or anti-Semitic. They were all "them".
So the way that played out in my life was I had almost exclusively Jewish friends. I dated only Jewish boys, and I was almost never in a Gentile home. [00:02:26] As for religion, ours was a conservative Jewish home, and that meant that I was brought up kosher. I never tasted a cheeseburger or lobster until after I was married.
As for holidays and Sabbath, we had a lot of rules. Now, the rules varied from household to household. So if someone was orthodox, that meant that they probably wouldn't do any cooking from Friday evening to Saturday evening. They wouldn't do any driving. They wouldn't use electricity except on timers, so things would go on automatically. But the conservative, which we were, was more relaxed.
So, mainly what I remember was that when Sabbath rolled around, we couldn't use pencils or crayons or scissors or sewing machine. And I was a kid who grew up to be an art major. So as you can imagine, that wasn't really pleasant for me.
I wasn't a child who enjoyed reading, which is ironic because I grew up to become an editor. But I just felt that these rules were very restrictive and frustrating for me. [00:03:30] So starting on Sunset Friday, I just couldn't wait for Sundown Saturday.
In general, though, I felt good about being Jewish. I was proud to be one of the chosen people, but I had no idea what we were chosen for. God Himself didn't seem very integral to our experience of Judaism. It struck me more as a lifestyle of rules, and mostly man-made rules at that. So when I left for college, I didn't see a reason to remain observant. I was a good person, and to me that just felt like enough.
What did I have instead of religion? I think of it more as a paradigm. My hypothesis of how life worked was that I was lucky. Things went my way. In school, I did very well academically. I married a Jewish doctor. I had a nice job. I had one child who was, by the way, born right on her due date. And we had four grandparents all living within a mile of us. And child number two was on the way. [00:04:30] So everything was going according to plan. The only problem was that it was my plan.
And then my water broke unexpectedly 12 weeks early, and Jonathan, our second child, was born weighing a frightening three pounds. The head of the NICU said, "Don't worry, 28-weekers are hard to manage, but we're good at it." And I figured, "Hey, I'm lucky." So this might be a little rigorous, but I just assumed everything would work out fine.
Well, we kind of bumbled along for four weeks, and then all of a sudden, Jonathan got an overwhelming infection. He was rushed to surgery on a Friday and died two days later. By the way, he died on April 1st. So that was a really hard time for me. So my paradigm of things go my way had collapsed.
And that fall, as if I needed further evidence that I wasn't in charge of my life, a subsequent pregnancy proved abnormal. [00:05:31] It was something called a molar pregnancy, where the placenta can turn cancerous and the baby gets blighted. At any rate, I ended up on chemotherapy and weekly blood tests for months.
Elliot, my husband, knew I needed help and he approached a new hospital social worker. He was a pediatrician in the hospital and he knew this social worker that people considered wise and asked if she would just come and talk to me.
Well, Ellen was a really good listener, and she wasn't afraid to take on my questions, and she wasn't afraid of the pain I was in. And I found it very comforting to be with her. So I would ask her questions like, how can you stand working in that unit where children die? And she would answer, "Well, I have a strong faith." And I didn't even see the connection. What did faith have to do with that?
So I remember asking her, what religion are you? And she said, Christian. I didn't really understand that word if I had heard others. [00:06:31] Jewish mind doesn't really have a good category for all the different types of Christians. So I said, well, are you Catholic or Gentile or Baptist? And she said, "Just just Christian. But it's not a religion, it's a relationship." Again, I didn't really have any understanding of what that meant.
Eventually, I asked her something that I don't even recall, but I remember her answer as clear as anything, because her answer was that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Well, I didn't know what to do with that. It was offensive to me. I was Jewish. She knew I was Jewish. I thought, how can she say that? She knows what I've been through.
I knew at this point I'm supposed to throw her out of my house, but she had been my life preserver. That was the only thing that gave me any comfort, and I knew I couldn't do that either.
So I just answered her by saying, "Well, I believe my Judaism is true." And she amazed me by agreeing. But she added that if Judaism is true, then Christianity must also be, because there are so many Old Testament prophecies that aren't fulfilled until the New Testament. [00:07:36]
Well, that certainly confused me because I always thought that the Old Testament was my Bible, was for Jews, and the New Testament was for Gentiles. I had no idea that they had anything to do with each other. So she asked me if I had a Bible, and I found the one I had been given at my bat mitzvah. So she took me on a six-month research project through the prophecies in my own Bible, and a portrait of my own Messiah began to take shape.
And this is what my Bible said about Him. He would be born of a virgin. He would be born in Bethlehem. His hands and feet would be pierced. And said he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
Well, this was sounding an awful lot like a "them" because I grew up down the street from a Catholic school and every Easter there was a poster out front that showed Jesus on the cross and it said, "He died for your sins." [00:08:37] I had no idea what that meant, but now reading in Isaiah 53 that He was crushed for our iniquities and He was cut off for my people, it kind of went, click, and all of a sudden I realized that that is who these prophecies in my Bible were about. So that is how I came to believe in Jesus.
That night at the kitchen table, I thought that I had finally reached the finish line, not realizing that it was actually the starting line, and I've been on a little journey ever since.
Laura Dugger: That is so captivating to hear your story. I've never heard all of those details about Jonathan, and I'm sure that recent anniversary was still tough.
Sandy Feit: Well, actually, it used to be very hard. I taught in a Christian school, I was an art teacher there, and every April 1st, the kids would think it was great fun to play April Fools jokes on all the teachers. So whenever they did to me, I would just kind of snap, you know, that's not funny. [00:09:39]
One day, my son also played an April Fool's joke, and I did the same thing to him, and he said, "But Mom, April 1st is the day that Jonathan met Jesus." And it just turned everything around for me. So now I actually appreciate the day. And I realized that my entire family was on a different trajectory because of that day and what happened on it. So now if I had to rewrite the story of my life, I would not leave that part out.
Laura Dugger: Your maturity is so incredible to hear. I'm just curious with a few follow-up questions. So at this point, when you came to know Jesus, you were still in Rhode Island at this point, is that right?
Sandy Feit: That's right.
Laura Dugger: How did you explain this then to your family, or did you keep that to yourself?
Sandy Feit: Well, it took me two years to tell my mother. It was really very hard to do, but eventually it just kind of bubbled out. [00:10:39] I had been having dreams about it and it had been coming between us without her knowing that I would feel this big distance.
So finally, I just told her and she had a strange reaction. At first, she said, "Well, you sound so happy. Why don't you tell your sister?" Because my sister at the time was having some struggles. So I sort of couldn't believe my ears. And I quick called my sister and told her. And she has always been very open to me.
But the next day, my mother kind of thought about it and said, "You know, I was thinking about what you said and what does that mean in terms of our family and all the relatives and her grandparents?" And then she started distancing herself from it. She came to have a really hard time with it. But we managed to get past it in our relationship and had a good relationship. But I wasn't really allowed to talk about that part of my life, which, as you can imagine, when it's in every fiber of your being, that's very tricky to do. But we navigated it okay.
She died a few years ago, and I never quite got the answer from her that I had hoped, but God didn't leave me without hope either. [00:11:46] There were certain things that happened at the end that make me think, Maybe she was coming around in her own way. And that's what I cling to.
Laura Dugger: I love how He gives us that personal hope.
Sandy Feit: Mm-hmm.
Laura Dugger: Then what about with Elliot and your children? When did you share about Jesus with them?
Sandy Feit: Well, Elliot, that was very interesting because he brought the social worker, Ellen, to our house, so he knew her very well from work. And the way he put it was he was always in the background washing dishes and listening. I'm not sure he washed dishes. But he was listening. It seemed like the focus was on me with a lot of things going wrong or being hard in my life. And then I came to faith and was starting to climb out of that hole and getting into the study of Scripture, and he saw me coming alive.
The focus seemed to change to him, where several things were being very hard with his career and other situations. [00:12:47] And so within around six months, he also came to faith. God is very smart. He knew that if Elliot came first, that I would have had a hard time with that, because Elliot, we went to high school together. And if there was ever a day that he wasn't sitting outside the vice principal's office for being thrown out of class, it meant he was absent. So I would have thought, "Oh no, he's doing something else that is a kind of a bad boy thing or not what's expected of him. So God brought me first. So wise.
And then when Elliot came around, God knew that I was going to need a partner to walk through this with. For a while, I was way ahead of him in the studies, but he just took off and he was just like dynamite with it. He loved Jesus so much and just wanted to tell everybody about Him.
Laura Dugger: Yes, he is such a special man. I only had the opportunity to meet him a few times, but both of you just exude the light and love of Christ, really, in every interaction. [00:13:48]
Sandy Feit: Oh, that's good to hear. I hope so.
Laura Dugger: And you have such a unique perspective into Judaism and Christianity. I would love for you just to teach us more, and especially as it relates to Sabbath. So how do Jews honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy?
Sandy Feit: Well, the question assumes that they do honor the Sabbath and keep it holy, but that depends on a lot of things. As I said, most Jewish people that I knew had their own style of rule-keeping, whether it was for the Sabbath or kosher laws or how they observed holidays.
But their branch of Judaism also mattered. So if they were Orthodox, they would be stricter and conservative, a little more relaxed. A lot of the people that I knew were in the Reform Synagogue, which was basically indistinguishable from the culture at large. They would eat cheeseburgers and they would work on Saturday and all that.
So for those who do observe Sabbath in the stricter denominations, one thing they might do is cook Saturday's meals ahead of time. [00:14:51] Generally, the house is cleaned to be ready for Friday evening. And Sabbath for them would create a rhythm to organize the week around.
Another thing that makes a big difference is where you live. I have a cousin in California who lives in an Orthodox compound, so the whole community is observing Sabbath, which makes it much more doable. Also in Israel. My daughter and I had an opportunity to go to Israel for the first time, me for the first time, her a second. We were there this past October.
The last evening we were there, I got to spend Shabbat with a first cousin of mine who grew up with me in Rhode Island and has lived in Israel for many years. And it was such a lovely experience. The meal preparations were extensive. We spent the entire afternoon making lots and lots of dishes.
And at night there were 11 of us around the table. Her whole extended family was there and we ate and we laughed and we joked and we sang. It was just an amazing ambiance and camaraderie around that table. [00:15:56] You and I would call it fellowship.
But the amazing thing was this was going on in every house throughout the neighborhood. In Israel, traffic stops on Shabbat. Hotel elevators are programmed to stop at every floor so no one has to do the work of pushing buttons. So there's this mindset and a rhythm and a delightful rest that descends on the day.
It's kind of like everyone here doing Thanksgiving or picnics and swimming on 4th of July. It would feel different if you went to another country and were the only ones doing that. But when the whole country is doing it, it's just very, very lovely. And there's this communal sense of pleasure.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's a beautiful picture. Then I'm even going to the practical side for these young moms who are helping prepare all of this and they have little kids at their feet. I mean, at one point you were that little child not able to play with the crayons. So what did that look like for the preparations and even the day of Sabbath? [00:16:59]
Sandy Feit: Well, my mother would have a nice meal for Friday night, and that part was kind of fun, but then we would kind of disband and do our own thing. So for me, it was just kind of waiting it out until I could get back to my drawing and cutting and all that.
Sometimes we would take a walk on the Sabbath, but our family wasn't observing it in a very big way. Not the same as if it's in a neighborhood in Israel where everybody is doing it and it just feels very different.
Laura Dugger: Okay, that makes sense because I think I have this more romanticized view in my head which maybe it does sound a little bit like your experience in Israel. And when you likened it to Thanksgiving, are you saying it's like that big of a production and that big of a celebration, but it's every week?
Sandy Feit: It really was. I cannot tell you how many different dishes were on the table that night and all the effort that went into it. And the whole feeling of preparation was very much like a Thanksgiving morning. [00:18:01]
Laura Dugger: Well, and like you said, they ordered the rest of their lives around that if that's a high priority. But now for us as Christ followers living after the first coming of Christ, what kind of meaning does or should the Sabbath have?
Sandy Feit: Well, the commandment about Sabbath was actually part of the Mosaic Covenant, which Christ fulfilled when He died on the cross. So we are now under the new covenant. Many Christians think the Sabbath actually changed from the seventh day of the week, from Saturday to Sunday, the Lord's Day. But biblically, that's actually not the case. We're no longer under the Mosaic law.
So we are under the law of Christ, and that reiterated most of the Ten Commandments. You know, in the New Testament, you'll see many of those things repeated in one form or another, but the observance of Sabbath is not actually listed. So we are free to observe it, but we're not under obligation to. [00:19:01]
I think rest is a beautiful principle to build into our life, and Christ is our Sabbath, so that's where we find our rest. Sabbath was originally instituted as a day to rest from work, and we know it was used as a day of worship in Christ's day. It says He went to the synagogue on the Sabbath, and He interacted. In fact, He healed very pointedly. He healed to draw attention to who He was and what He was doing, but He brought out the fact that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.
So, in the New Testament, the Lord's Day became a day to gather, but the principle that we go by is that we are to meet regularly, but the actual day of the week is not specified. Actually, the aspect of freedom in Christianity is especially important to me. So those Sabbath rules that I mentioned earlier felt like a clear lack of freedom, and to me that kind of contradicts the spirit of Sabbath. But now I feel like I can incorporate the rest part in a way that's not obligation, but it's just... it's beautiful to actually get to that point of rest in Christ. [00:20:07]
Laura Dugger: And from your study of the Bible, let me just summarize your saying that of those Ten Commandments, that some of them were affirmed in the New Testament. This one was not specifically stated by Jesus, but that the New Testament does talk about the Sabbath being for man, more so like a gift rather than man-made for the Sabbath. Is that right?
Sandy Feit: Well, that's right. But Jesus was also saying it while the Mosaic Covenant was still in effect. His whole life up to the cross they were under the Mosaic Covenant. So we have the freedom to observe those principles if we want, and I think it's a great idea, but not if we do it out of guilt or because we think we have to. We do it because it's a gift to us.
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Laura Dugger: When you speak about rest, it's so full of freedom and very inviting. [00:23:18] And I'm just curious, why do you think that we in American culture tend to celebrate the opposite of what Sabbath represents?
Sandy Feit: That's a really good question. And I think you're right, we do. But I think it's part of the American ethic. It's a mindset that we have. I think it goes back to the idea of the American dream and the self-made man. Some people trace that idea back to Benjamin Franklin. He came from humble beginnings and rose to be a very respected member of society. And also people like Abraham Lincoln, you know, the poverty and then this rise to power. So I think that's just kind of built into what Americans think and aspire to, you know, drive and grit and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps.
But maybe there's also some competitive spirit that we have. And maybe it's also a little bit of the human nature being insatiable. We just have this drive for bigger and better and more. [00:24:20]
I think Madison Avenue probably has shaped some of that desire. American Advertising seems to understand the consumer's psyche and they're very clever about manipulating us to desire whatever they want to sell us.
So I think that all plays a part and we always try to outdo whatever's been done before. Think about all the events and expectations that get bigger every year. Sales figures, no one's ever satisfied to have a year as good as last year. It always has to be better.
Super Bowl halftime shows always have to be bigger and more dramatic. And look at how holidays have become just bigger and more booming industries. Things like Valentine's Day and Halloween were never as big as they are now. And now Halloween rivals Christmas, I believe. Same thing with... think about marriage proposals and baby reveals. It's just bigger and bigger. And I think that's just somehow wired into the American thinking.
Laura Dugger: That's a very fascinating perspective. [00:25:19] What root issues do you believe this illuminates when we do resist the desire to enjoy the gift of Sabbath rest?
Sandy Feit: I like that you call it the gift of Sabbath rest, because it is no longer a command. But as for heart issues that make it difficult to get the rest we need, I think I would include sleep and bodily rejuvenation in that character.
Thinking of things from my own experience, I have trouble with discipline, going to bed on time, and also self-sufficiency. We've all been taught that we can do it ourselves, coupled with the pride of accomplishment.
I myself have trouble leaving things undone for too long. I've always been driven by a to-do list. I always joke that my motto is, let me just, as in, okay, I'll be right there, but let me just do this one thing first. I always want to cross it off. So I have to fight that if I want to get to a place of just resting and sitting. [00:26:20]
In fact, as recently as 8 or 10 years ago, I didn't know how to relax let alone rest for a whole day. TV seems like an odd thing to praise, but I do credit it with teaching me how to sit back for at least a little while. Because before that, the only time I would ever sit and watch TV was when I had a basket of clothes to fold.
But my husband enjoyed unwinding with a program or two. Once he found a series that intrigued me and I guess I had enough laundry to get into it, so eventually I did learn to enjoy just sitting with him and watching even if it wasn't laundry to fold.
So I'm not sure how we get past that. One thing might be an accountability partner. For Christian marriages, it would be great if the leader of the family, also known as the husband, gets on board. If he would build rest and downtime into the family routine, that would be very helpful for the whole family.
Also, stick to bedtimes. When kids get to stay up too late, that's a drain on the parents, and parents need time not being needed. [00:27:24] I wasn't disappointed about my own bedtime, as I said, but I'm doing better now. When I do, I really notice a difference from the next afternoon.
Laura Dugger: I think you'll be hitting a nerve for a lot of people, and I'm including myself in that category with being kind of enslaved to this to-do list that, like you said, let me just get one more thing done. Do you have any other tips for how to, I don't know if the right word is overcome, but any tips for how to overcome that pull to always be driven to do one more thing rather than to choose rest?
Sandy Feit: Well, one is maybe just to force yourself to try it. And if you can get to a point of rest, you might find that you really like it. But ironically, this COVID-19 situation that we are in is forcing a lot of us to be a whole kind of inadvertent students of Sabbath and that lifestyle because we're a lot less active than we're used to being. [00:28:26]
And with a lot of stores and places of entertainment and churches closed, we are having to relearn how to stay home and follow a routine that in many cases is more restful, although those of you with children at home, it's not necessarily restful, but it's a different pace than you're used to.
So it's not always easy or comfortable to do, but there's a wholesomeness to that quieter kind of entertainment. The other thing that I would say about Sabbath and about this time of lockdown is that it's a time of reset.
There's a lot going on, not just in our personal life, but as a country and as a world that's being reset. These patterns of work, the activities by which we play and get refreshed, our ways of interacting with housemates. I'm hearing my children talk about the things that they're figuring out to do with their children and the pleasure that they're learning to get from it that may not have been so pleasurable before. [00:29:27]
Also, the ways that we're connecting with more remote friends and families. I'm on Zoom meetings at work. I'm on Zoom at Sunday school. It's making us look at life differently. Even Congress is not fighting each other, but they're trying to work together for a change. So this is pretty remarkable. But the Sabbath and these downtimes can be a reset for attitudes.
Laura Dugger: And it's fine for us to detour here since we are all experiencing this together. So for you personally, Sandy, is there anything that you've learned so far in this unique season of COVID-19? Are there any of these rhythms that you want to take forward once we come out of this?
Sandy Feit: Well, yes, I always enjoy being with my family. And since my husband died four and a half years ago, my son instituted family dinner. So once a week. It actually has moved to Friday night. So that has been a delightful point in the week that we kind of revolve around. I've loved that connection. [00:30:33]
Now with this new situation I'm actually doing bedtimes by Zoom every weeknight. And I just love even if it's a short time but hearing something from the children's day and they all get to talk. We play High, Low, Buffalo. What's the high of your day, the low of your day and something unusual about your day.
And what delights me is that almost all of them will say, I had no love. And I just love getting into their little heads and just seeing the world, this crazy world with this crazy situation through the eyes of a child. And it does settle me to do that. So I don't want to lose that after this is all over and we're looking back on it.
Laura Dugger: Wow, thank you for sharing that. I love it.
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How can we apply principles in scripture to live in a rhythm of incorporating more intentional rest into our daily lives?
Sandy Feit: Well, the biblical principles that I see are that God rested after six days of creation, and then I see Jesus pulling away from the crowds very regularly to be in a secluded place with His Father. He also told the disciples, come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while because there were a lot of people coming and going and wanting Him. [00:32:31]
So emulating Christ is certainly a good thing. But how do we do it? That is always tricky. But I think the first thing is to be mindful of the messages playing in my head and then not fall for them. Like what goes on in my head is, oh, I don't really need to get to bed this early 30 minutes won't make a difference even though I know it's going to be 45 or 60 minutes by the time all is said and done and then I'll be wound up and won't fall asleep right away.
Or you know that bedtime app on the phone, it plays barf Brahms lullaby and then I'm supposed to go to bed or get restart to get ready for it, well, I have learned to ignore it. So I almost have to make an out loud decision to pay attention to it.
A lot of it has to do with being organized and planning ahead, whether that means cooking double and freezing it, planning for leftovers. I once read that undesignated time disappears. So for me, the takeaway is be intentional and block off time, including for rest and replenishment, whatever that looks like. [00:33:35]
One other thing that my son does, he has Sunday after church is a technology day. They don't allow their children to use the computer or their tablets a lot, but they have discovered that that works well for the whole family. So it's kind of like the TV thing, that technology can be an unwelcome intruder in many relationships and certainly in many circles, but it's not evil in and of itself, just if it's misused.
So if the children are allowed to have that time, then it ends up that my son and his wife also have a very peaceful afternoon and they can connect with each other. So that's something that has worked very well for them.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's a really practical tip. I like that. What caution do you have for us if we want to get serious about building rest into our routine? Is there a way to recognize if we're falling into either extreme there?
Sandy Feit: Well, speaking for myself, I don't think I have the danger of falling into too much. [00:34:37] You mean becoming a super couch potato? I think more my temptation is to fall out of it. So I just would have to keep reminding myself.
Other things you can do are also like schedule when we're allowed to be with people again, a pedicure or lunch with a friend monthly, or something like... some people have a regular week for vacation every year. But the organization and planning ahead, I think, is really important.
And as I said before, an accountability partner to kind of hold you to it. I don't think it's our normal rhythm. Maybe that's why it had to be a command in the first place.
Laura Dugger: That's really insightful. I think you're onto something there. Would you vision cast for us now? What kind of hope is there for us if we actually become intentional and incorporate this gift of rest into our lives?
Sandy Feit: Well, I think we've become more Christ-like. And isn't that what we're all aiming for? [00:35:37] Jesus was never rushed. He was never flustered. Didn't matter how often the Pharisees or the teachers of the law tried to trap Him. He just was never rattled.
So I think if we look at how He did that, and that's our goal and our model, I think that's a great thing to aim for. He stayed in very close contact with His Father and did only what His Father told Him to do.
Prayer. I know that's a pattern that is wonderful to stay in. But prayer is a battle. It's hard to keep that prayer time, something is always trying to interrupt it. So I think that is something to aim for.
And we have the Holy Spirit living within us. So we have access to the power that raised Jesus from the dead, it said in the scripture. That's amazing. And we have the wisdom of Almighty God and the peace that characterized the Prince of Peace.
So, you know, I'm preaching to myself here, but if we just stop trying to take control of things ourselves and instead let God run the show, I think we'd really find that rest. [00:36:43]
I once had this little bookmark that I made that said R-U-N in giant letters, and in a little tiny i, a small i, it was in between the U and the N. So the idea of it was run my life God or I will ruin it.
And I think that's what this rest is like for me. Left to my own devices I would be filling my time with all kinds of stuff and to-do lists and marking it off. But if the more I let God, people say let go and let God, but the more I let Him do, the better off I am.
Actually, since losing my husband, I've had to take care of all kinds of things that I simply didn't know how to do before. Prepare taxes, I had to get the microwave fixed, hire a contractor, I have a new garage door, I had to figure out probate, buy a new car. So my initial temptation four and a half years ago was to panic.
There was just so much thrown at me all at once, though, that I had no choice but to cast it on God. [00:37:47] And you know what? He wasn't thrown at all. Gradually, one thing at a time got worked out. And the more I saw Him come through, the more I began to rest in Him. And it's really changing me. I'll tell you, calm feels good. I can just tell you that He is faithful and He will come through.
Laura Dugger: And that's especially powerful to hear because you've gone through so much loss in your life. Many years ago with Jonathan and then with your mother and with your beloved husband more recently. So I don't take those words lightly.
Sandy Feit: Well, thank you. But I will say I am a firm believer in reunions and we are going to have a grand one one day.
Laura Dugger: Amen. Sandy, if someone's listening and they want to boil this down to a more manageable first step, is there anything that you would direct them toward?
Sandy Feit: Maybe folding their clothes in front of the TV. [00:38:47] Maybe just sitting and starting with 30 seconds of silence and thinking of nothing except possibly thinking to God. And then just gradually extending it, but really get it on your calendar. If you don't write it down, it's not going to happen. Not if you're like me.
Laura Dugger: I think those are really wise principles to start. And it's interesting. My husband, Mark, has been reading and actually now rereading this book, The Good and Beautiful God. And it really ties into a lot of these recommendations you've been giving where it first incorporates rest and then silence and there's more spiritual disciplines. But I'll put a link to that in the show notes in case that's helpful for someone to get started as well.
Sandy Feit: Oh, I think I'll look it up. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: Yes, my pleasure. Sandy, you're definitely a gifted communicator and I know you're a great writer as well. Where can we find more of your work online? [00:39:47]
Sandy Feit: Well, I am a staff writer for Intouch.org, so I guess you could Google Intouch.org and my last name, F-E-I-T. I also have an article on a site called theperennialgen.com, so that and my name would bring that up. That's for older people like me, but you can find it there.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We'll link to that in our show notes and on our "Resources" tab of our website. You may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Sandy Feit: Well, I have a little story for you and that is that Elliot, my husband, was not much of a note-taker at church when the sermon was going on. But there was this one Sunday that all of a sudden he got this aha look on his face and he pulled a pen out and he started writing furiously. I had no idea what he was doing. [00:40:48]
But when he got home, he told me that something he had heard on the radio earlier that week, I think it was another Christian message, and what the pastor was saying in church, just blended together. And he got from those two messages four statements that he thought of that summed up the life of faith. So I'm going to share those.
He wrote them on a little card that I still have on my fridge. And we had it printed up as a magnet that we gave out at his funeral. And I am still hearing from people that they have it, they look at it all the time, and it really meant a lot. So I will share those.
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Bible verse "be anxious for nothing". Eliot used to be a terrible worrier. And the stronger his faith grew, the more the anxiety went away. And he learned that there really is no reason to be anxious.
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Take no moment for granted. He said, you just never know what God has in mind for the most simple or innocent-looking moment. [00:41:50] It might be a time that He has a great spiritual thing about to happen. In fact, Elliot once led a telemarketer to faith. So he really knew what he was talking about.
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Trust God. That speaks for itself.
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Expect a miracle.
Laura Dugger: I love those words. That's an incredible savvy sauce. Sandy, just like your daughter Jackie, you are delightful to spend time with and learn from. So thank you for enlightening us today.
Sandy Feit: Thank you. I've really enjoyed this and I've always enjoyed you and I'm glad to be in touch again.
Laura Dugger: Oh, well, it's been a privilege to have you as my guest. Thank you.
Sandy Feit: Thank you so much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. [00:42:52] Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:43:57]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:44:56]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 06, 2020
Monday Apr 06, 2020
98. Financial Wisdom Amidst COVID-19 and Beyond with Natalie Taylor
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 21:5 (ESV) “The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty."
Natalie Taylor is a Certified Financial Planner professional and Behavioral Financial Advisor. She's on a mission to help people cultivate a plan for their finances based on their values and goals. She helps people not only make progress, but find confidence, balance, and peace along the way.
Frequently quoted in major publications such as the Huffington Post, Forbes, Business Insider and Lifehacker, Natalie draws on over 15 years of comprehensive financial planning experience, 7 years in fintech, and a decade of professional speaking to share advice that works in real life, not just on paper.
After eight years in private practice, Natalie joined LearnVest, a fintech startup on a mission to make financial planning affordable and accessible to the masses. She moved on to be the Director of Financial Advice for LearnVest after they were acquired by a Fortune 100 company, and left in mid-2018 to start a fintech consulting and professional speaking business. She consults for companies like Ellevest and LearnLux, and continues to speak to audiences throughout the country, including speaking for the second year in a row at the annual Beachbody Summit in Indianapolis alongside James Clear and Rachel Hollis to a crowd of 20,000+ business owners.
As of February 2020, Natalie opened a financial planning practice to work one-on-one with clients again, returning to her first (career) love.
Natalie Taylor’s Financial Website
Sign up for Natalie’s E-mail List Here!
Connect with Natalie on Instagram @natalieanntaylormoney
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries is a biblical way to help your family and care for your brothers and sisters in Christ. Every month, Samaritan members help one another with their medical needs by praying for and providing financial support. You can learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
My friend Natalie Taylor is a trustworthy financial expert and our returning guest today. She is not giving investment advice, but she is offering financial education and perspective. After listening to this episode, I expect for you to feel more hopeful and more equipped to know which financial step is best for you to take next.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Natalie.
Natalie Taylor: Thanks so much. Good to be back. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: It's so fun to have you on again. For anybody who missed our previous episodes, can you just remind us all who you are and what you spend your days doing?
Natalie Taylor: Sure. I'm Natalie Taylor. I'm a certified financial planner and behavioral financial advisor. I have two little boys, five and seven, and a husband, Ryan. We live in Santa Barbara, California. When I'm not with my kids, I spend time as a financial planner, working with people in their 30s and 40s, usually families who have kids and are juggling all the things from retirement to college to getting a house or paying down a mortgage and are trying to find the balance between all of those things and trying to enjoy life a little bit as well.
Then I do some consulting work for financial technology companies, and I also speak professionally around the country.
Laura Dugger: And you are incredible at all of those roles. You're in California, like you said, and we're in Illinois, and currently, both of us, with COVID-19, are under a stay-at-home order. [00:02:19] So just wanting to check in, how is your family making this work as you're currently under this order?
Natalie Taylor: You know, it's kind of... I don't want to say it's funny because there's so many serious things right now. But this is my normal life. I work from home, I run my businesses from home, and every minute that I'm not working I'm with my kids and I'm parenting and taking care of all the household stuff. So I feel like if anything now my husband is also living my life as well. Instead of getting to go to the office and travel the world for his work, he's now working from home.
And every minute that he's not working, he's doing childcare because we've been doing shifts of work between the two of us. We each get a five-hour chunk every day and then whoever's most behind, we kind of rock, paper, scissors and get to work in the evening. But yeah, I mean, it's certainly been different and we've certainly had to keep our spirits up and make some adjustments in all parts of life, juggling childcare and homeschool and work and all the things, and toilet paper, and trying to get my parents to take this all seriously. Because I don't know if you're in that boat, but man, it was a little hard to get them to take it seriously, but we finally got them there, so they're taking good care of themselves now. [00:03:29]
Laura Dugger: I'm so thankful to hear that you guys are adjusting well. I know that this virus, obviously, like you said, it has a dark side, but what have been your most positive learnings from this unique season?
Natalie Taylor: You know, I think for me, it's just been a great opportunity to be able to serve my clients, serve the companies that I consult for, and to be able to serve my friends and my community. I think it's a really important time to focus on what's important.
For us, I'm going to be honest, that's not homeschool. My kids are five and seven. They're in transitional kindergarten or pre-K and second grade. And we're learning things like how to ride a skateboard and how to ride a two-wheeler and how to vacuum and how to clean a toilet. Those are the things that we're focusing on and building some self-sufficiency since we're all home and we're all sharing the load a little bit more than normal. And I think those are going to be really positive things for my kids to understand. [00:04:29]
Laura Dugger: I love that. And it's an out-of-the-box picture of it because I know a lot of us are feeling all of this pressure. Like you said, we're all becoming homeschooling parents. That's really helpful. One of my friends, Allison, encouraged us when this all started, just, what can we all be teaching our kids that they aren't learning at school? And it sounds like you and Ryan are doing exactly that.
Natalie Taylor: I love that. That's said so well.
Laura Dugger: This entire conversation today is actually taking place as a result of your recent email. I just found it to be so grounding and helpful. I just want to encourage listeners, if you haven't already signed up for Natalie's email list, I would highly recommend you do that right away. We will link to all of that in the show notes, but Natalie, could you tell us right now what your website is where they can sign up for that?
Natalie Taylor: Yeah. Thanks for that, Laura. My website is natalieanntaylor.com. [00:05:31] If you log in there, I have some blog posts there that hopefully are helpful. If you want to follow me on LinkedIn, I posted the client letter on LinkedIn. Business Insider actually published it as well. So that information is there. And I sent it out to my email list, which is, Laura, how you saw it.
So if you want to sign up for my email list from my website, you certainly can. I'm not someone who emails everyone all the time. You might hear from me once a month. But I really email when I have something meaningful to share. And I don't when I don't. So that's how the email list works.
Laura Dugger: And yes, as the recipient of those emails, I would affirm everything you just said, and I find them all to be helpful. So as this most recent email related to finances, during this season with COVID-19, what do you think is a healthy financial perspective?
Natalie Taylor: I think a healthy financial perspective is sort of balanced between the big picture and the kind of micro things that we deal with every day. So I think it's important to understand and know enough about what's going on in the big picture of the economy and the healthcare system and the virus and all of those things. [00:06:46]
But to filter that through to, Okay, what does that mean for me each day? And keeping in mind, is this a short-term thing or a long-term thing? Because a lot of the news we're hearing is sensationalized, and it really plays to some emotions and for many of us, some fears, some deep-rooted fears that maybe we weren't even aware of.
When we have the risk of taking away some everyday things we depend on, like being able to go to the market, being able to get toilet paper, being able to buy rubbing alcohol, all of these normal things, when those feel at risk, it can be really unsettling. So I think to have a healthy financial perspective, it's important to spend a little bit of time understanding what you're thinking and feeling before you think about taking any action.
Laura Dugger: Just from the people that you've been interacting with then, how have you witnessed the stress of the coronavirus affecting people's financial decisions?
Natalie Taylor: I think some clients are worried that their income will decrease. [00:07:46] I've had some clients who have gone from making $100,000 a year to making nothing until we get out of this season. So I've definitely seen some stress and concern around income.
I've also seen a lot of stress and concern around the stock market. You know, for those who follow it, you've seen that it's been dropping and it's been wild. There's been days that we've dropped 12% and days that we've been up 9%. So it's been totally wild and choppy.
But when you're looking at your portfolio, those ups and downs mean I lost dollars, I gained dollars, I lost dollars, I lost more dollars. And we're wired to want to take action and to want to stop the bleeding, if you will, when we see that kind of thing. So I've seen clients really concerned about their portfolio and wondering, should I be taking action here? Is there something that I should be doing to protect myself?
Laura Dugger: That leads me to another question. So they may be asking what action to take. But because you are a financial expert, what other questions are people asking you right now? [00:08:49]
Natalie Taylor: I think the question on sort of everybody's mind underlying all of it is what does this all mean for me? And am I going to be okay? I think the answer to that is a little bit complicated and it's different for everyone. You know, we are all gonna be impacted in different ways, some of us more than others because we're in industries that are more impacted or less impacted.
So I think it's important not to take on the emotions or the behaviors of those that are in different situations and to really make sure that you focus on, Okay, let me think through what this actually means for me and how I can reasonably respond to take action on the things that I can control. And maybe, you know, make some changes in the realm of things that I can influence and how can I identify and then let go of the things that I cannot control.
Laura Dugger: That's such a great mindset. Would you mind taking it a step further and maybe sharing what that would look like for two different clients, one who is going to be significantly impacted financially through this and someone else who may not be? [00:09:54] But what would that look like to walk through this in a healthy way?
Natalie Taylor: That's a great question. For a client who is going to be significantly impacted, I would say that's probably because their income is gonna be significantly impacted. And so to that client, I would say, let's do our best to estimate if any income will be coming in. Let's look at your next best places to get cash to supplement your income if your income drops. By that I mean, how much do you have an emergency savings that we can use to temporarily fill in for your income while your income is lower, or maybe your income is eliminated for a short period of time? So how much do we have an emergency fund and how long do we think that will last?
And then we want to make a list of the next best places to get money. So any other savings that you can use, any personal loans that might be available to you from family members where the emotional cost of the loan would not be greater than the value of the loan for you. [00:10:58]
Then looking at, you know, if you have a home equity line of credit that you could potentially draw from. Home equity lines of credit are generally under five, six percent right now. So that is a reasonable place to be able to access money if you need it temporarily to support your family while your income is reduced or maybe even eliminated for a temporary period of time.
Then after that, we get into some places that have more cost to them, one of those being credit cards, because the interest rates are higher. And another one being Roth IRAs. So, a Roth IRA, you can always access your contributions. So the money that you put into your Roth IRA, you can always get that money out with no taxes and no penalties, which is a really great, flexible benefit of a Roth IRA.
We don't focus on it as financial planners because we want those dollars to be saved for retirement. But in times like these, if you need to access that money, it's good to know that you wouldn't have taxes or penalties when you did it. [00:12:01]
The downside is that your Roth IRA is probably invested in the stock market. And the stock market has dropped 30 plus percent at this point in the last month or so. And so it's not a great time to sell investments.
So I would put that toward the bottom of the list of places to access cash, not because there would be taxes or penalties, but because it's not a great time to sell investments when the market has gone down. So for that client who's going to be significantly impacted, I think that's sort of the exercise that we would go through to say, okay, where are the next best places for cash if your income is going to be reduced or eliminated for a temporary period of time.
And then the second place we would look is expenses. Whether the income has dropped already or whether you're anticipating that income will drop, I think it's important to adjust expenses as you can right away. So I would walk through your budget and think through what expenses can you change for the next, let's say, three to six months, to reduce expenses and reduce the pull on your income. [00:13:06] And if we're having to use savings, reduce the pull on savings. I wouldn't think of these expense changes as forever, but I would think about what can I reasonably do in the next three to six months?
If you're making extra payments on any debt, I know this is probably the first time you've heard a financial planner say it, but stop doing that. If you're saving towards retirement and you're anticipating your income is not going to be sufficient to cover expenses, then hold off on saving for retirement for a temporary period of time if there are expenses that you can adjust downward.
And you know, some of us who pay for childcare or other services that aren't available right now, our expenses have been reduced for us. Whether we like it or not, they've been reduced for us. So try to capture those dollars and reduce expenses.
So those are kind of the first two places I would say for somebody who's going to be significantly impacted. In terms of their investment portfolio, I would still recommend that they stay invested. [00:14:06]
Laura Dugger: And now what about the other person who is still feeling a lot of emotions, even though they will not be financially impacted or they don't expect to be significantly financially impacted?
Natalie Taylor: I think for those that do not expect to be significantly impacted, it's still prudent to store up a little extra cash and to reduce expenses to some extent as you can. So, in terms of income, if you don't think your income will be impacted, that's great. I still think it's important that you maintain an emergency savings and if you can add to it in this season, I think it's a good idea to do it. Even if that means temporarily deferring dollars from debt reduction.
Let's say you're making an extra $1,000 payment on a credit card that you're paying off or on your mortgage or something like that. I would say for the next three to six months, you might want to take those extra dollars and put them towards your emergency savings just in case. [00:15:04]
If you don't expect your income to be impacted, I would still continue to save into your retirement accounts. I would keep that going, but I would maybe slow down on debt reduction to preserve some extra dollars. I would still take a look at your budget and see, are there some reasonable changes that we can make short term to find some extra dollars to pad our emergency savings? And again, I would say stay invested in your portfolio.
The other thing I would say, if your income isn't going to be impacted, is interest rates have gone down. So there's been some really great opportunities to refinance debt. The biggest debt for most people is their mortgage. And so interest rates on 30-year mortgages got down to like 3.1% in the last six weeks, which is really just remarkably low.
Because so many people were excited to refinance when they dropped that low, there's been so much demand for refinance that actually mortgage rates have gone up a little bit. [00:16:06] But I would say keep an eye on mortgage rates. And if you do have a mortgage, especially if it's over maybe 3.75%, but definitely if it's over 4%, there could be a really great opportunity in the coming weeks to refinance your mortgage, especially if your income isn't impacted, and especially if you have a great credit score.
You may be able to get in the very low 3%, or if you could do a 15-year, you might even be able to get under 3% on your mortgage. So it could be a great opportunity for you to take advantage of lower rates.
Laura Dugger: These are all such wise approaches. Are there any other questions that we can begin asking ourselves or any certain ideas that you think we should consider before impulsively reacting financially?
Natalie Taylor: Yeah, that's a great question. When we're in times of stress, a couple things. So, one, stress doesn't usually compartmentalize itself. Stress usually seeps into all of our interactions. [00:17:08] So if we're stressed about work, we may end up blowing up at our kids because when we're stressed, we're stressed. We don't really compartmentalize stress to one area of our life, even if that one area is where it came from.
So in times like these, I would be exceptionally aware of where your stress is coming from and what your level of stress is. For example, my husband will read an article that says, you know, there's a chance that within eight weeks, half of Americans will have the COVID-19 virus. And then he'll immediately start talking about, Well, should we make changes in our finances or should we not let our kids outside?
And I think it's important to just recognize, "I'm right now from a stress perspective being influenced by this article I just read. Let me check in with myself and know that. Let me spend a little bit of time thinking and feeling through this to decide whether this is the right action to take or whether I'm actually just reacting to this stressful thing or this anxious spot in my heart that was triggered by this article I read or by this thing I heard." [00:18:10]
So I think that's one thing is just to be self-aware and slow yourself down to go through the thinking and feeling before you get to the doing. So yeah, the first one is just recognizing that stress invades all the areas of our decision-making, and the second one, pausing and thinking and feeling before you start doing.
Laura Dugger: Yes. And that was something that really stood out in your email that's so true. When we're stressed, we go into action mode and we jump to that doing. But I love that you're saying pause, slow down. Just because you feel that impulse to react with an action, it's, like you said, not the most prudent.
Natalie Taylor: That's right. Our brains are wired to want us to protect ourselves and our loved ones. I've had to explain the mama bear to my kids sometimes because we are wired to protect ourselves and we are wired to protect our families. It's innate in us. And it's not a bad thing. [00:19:08] But we have to channel it into the right places and make sure that it's not circumventing good decision-making in other places.
So that innate desire to protect will lead us towards very good paths to protect our kids from getting sick, to protect ourselves from getting sick, to make sure that we're able to put food on the table for our families.
But it will not lead us the right direction when we let that desire to protect invade our investment decision, you know, in normal circumstances outside of the COVID-19 stuff. Sometimes that desire to protect can harm us when we're trying to do something big and new for entrepreneurs, for business owners, for solopreneurs, for those that are trying to do something out of the box.
Sometimes that desire to protect wants to keep us in a box when really that's not the right place for us to be. So there are good ways and bad ways that that desire to protect and to protect from loss impacts us, but we just have to make sure that we're applying it in the right areas of our life and not just letting it invade all the areas of our life. [00:20:12]
Laura Dugger: That's good. That we'll require some discernment. That's such a good word. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: I want to circle back that something that you've mentioned in multiple scenarios is that you encourage people to stay invested in the markets. So will you unpack and just share more about why you encourage people to stay invested, even if they're feeling a little bit anxious right now with their investments? [00:22:14]
Natalie Taylor: Absolutely. I mean, I think the first thing is if you're feeling anxious about your investments and you don't like seeing them go down, that is totally normal. I feel the same way. I think it's kind of impossible to not feel those feelings.
And I will say specifically for the people that I typically help, which are generally people in their 30s and 40s with young families, I'm going to kind of make the assumption that we all have more than 10 years until we retire. And so those funds that we have set aside for retirement, we're not needing to use those for 10 plus years. So I want to kind of make sure that that assumption is clear as I talk about what you might or might not want to do in your investment portfolio.
So since we don't need the money for 10-plus years, I think it's important for us to reflect on how the market works. Every shock to the market in order for it to be a shock to the market, and usually shocks like this lead to a recession, which means slower growth for a while, and then we recover. That's when growth comes back. [00:23:16]
Every shock in order for it to be a shock has to be shocking, which I know sounds silly. But the point of it is every time we have this feeling of this one feels different. We never had a global pandemic like this one before or you know, I managed money in the great recession in 2008, 2009 as well all the way before it, during, and after it. There was a lot of talk of this one's different. We've never had a credit crisis like this one before.
We could have huge companies going under overnight like Lehman Brothers did because of over-leverage. And if credit locks up, then the whole economy doesn't work anymore. And that was super, super, super scary. But this is sort of everyone feels different at each time. Each shock feels different. But that's sort of exactly how it works.
That's also exactly what we anticipate, that it's going to be something that no one saw coming, or virtually no one saw coming, and that we're not going to be exactly sure how it's going to sort out or how long it's going to take. [00:24:19] And then eventually, businesses adjust, people adjust, and things get better.
So I can't guarantee that the market's going to go back up. But if we look at history, the market has always recovered eventually. And so I think for those of us with the benefit of a ten plus year time horizon in our investment portfolios, I think it behooves us to strategically stay invested. We are proactively making the decision to stay invested based on historical data that we can see that gives us a very good, logical, reasonable reason to believe that the market will eventually recover and that our portfolios will eventually recover with it.
Laura Dugger: I've heard you say before, Let markets do what markets do. That really helps to hear the reasoning behind it. I do want to touch on the other age group, though. Would this council change then for someone who is around the age of 65 and ready to retire this year? [00:25:23]
Natalie Taylor: It would change to some extent. So for those who are about to retire or who have just retired, I think it's important to make sure that your investment portfolio is balanced between more conservative bond type investments and more aggressive stock type investments.
And I think for those in that demographic, it's really critical to kind of bucket out the money in terms of what money am I going to need to draw in the next year, in the next two years, in the next three years? And what parts of my portfolio are for much later?
Because even if you're 65 now, there's still a substantial part of your portfolio that is for 10-plus years from now. Because you have a long life ahead of you still. And so not all of your money is needed tomorrow. And so I think it's important to not react as if you need all the money tomorrow.
So what that means is that part of your portfolio should be invested more for the long term, and we should expect that it would participate in an eventual recovery. [00:26:28] No guarantees, but that's what history has shown us that the markets do.
For the money that you need in the next six or 12 months, many advisors, and I would absolutely agree, recommend that you have one to two years of cash available at any given time in retirement in your portfolio so that you're never having to sell investments when the market is down.
So the hope would be that your portfolio has a slice of either extremely conservative funds or cash for the next 6, 12, 24 months, now would be the time to use those funds instead of having to sell out of the market to support your income.
If that's not the situation that you're in, I would talk with a financial advisor and determine what can you do to allow some of your portfolio to grow for later and participate in the upside that is not guaranteed to come, but that we think will come, and what part of your portfolio may need to be in cash or in more conservative investments so that you can have access to the money that you need to create your retirement income. [00:27:39]
Laura Dugger: When you say having access to cash for one to two years, what are some examples of what that looks like?
Natalie Taylor: So within your IRA or your 401k, Roth IRA, 403b, within your retirement portfolio, I'm just going to use easy numbers. If you live on $5,000 a month, that's $60,000 a year. So the idea would be that you have $60,000 to $120,000 of your retirement portfolio in cash.
Now let me caveat that and say if you have social security that's coming in, which most do, and you have a pension which most don't but for those that are in their 60s right now many still do, the cash that you need is only to make up the difference that you need to pull from your portfolio to create your overall income.
So let me restate that a little bit. If you need $5,000 a month to live on, and $3,000 of that comes from Social Security and pensions, you really only need $2,000 a month from your portfolio. [00:28:40] So if you're only needing $2,000 a month from your portfolio, then that's $24,000 for one year and $48,000 for two years.
So the idea would be that in this scenario, $24,000 to $48,000 would be in cash within your retirement portfolio, Roth IRA, traditional IRA, 401k, 403b. And right now, instead of slowly liquidating investments over time to create that $2,000 a month from your portfolio, the best thing to do would be to use the cash that's in your portfolio to draw from so that you don't have to sell investments during this downturn.
I'm going to caveat all of that, though, very importantly, that this is not official recommendations to you to go buy or sell any specific investment. I'm giving theoretical hypothetical examples to give you some context and understanding. But it's important that you consult with a financial advisor or a financial planner to make these sorts of decisions. [00:29:42] I just want to be super clear that I'm not telling you go buy this or go sell this. I just want to help with the understanding.
Laura Dugger: That's a great disclaimer because the responsibility really is on each of us. This is just helpful knowledge that you have that you're willing to share, but then we're responsible for what we choose to do with that knowledge and follow up with our own research.
But let's just kind of cover two extremes then. What would your conversation look like with people who a) want to right now before listening to this, they want to pull all their money out of the stock market? And b) what would your conversation look like with a client who is coming into COVID-19 pretty financially healthy and they have some extra cash on hand? What would that conversation look like if they wanted to invest that money as soon as possible?
Natalie Taylor: That's a great question. I've gotten both, to be honest. So the first one, those who want to sell out and kind of stop the bleeding in their portfolio, I totally get it. [00:30:46] Honestly, I've had those same exact feelings. I really do relate and I really do get it. And you've worked very hard for the money that you've put away. So it's really difficult to see it drop.
We look at increases in our portfolio and percentages. "I made 8% this year." We look at losses in dollars. "I lost $80,000. I lost $30,000." Because our brains are wired to care more about the losses than to get excited about the gains. We love gains. It's great to see your portfolio go up. But the excitement of seeing a portfolio go up is not as strong as that feeling of wanting to protect and fear from loss that we get from seeing our portfolios drop.
So I just want you to know that I'm not here to tell you like, Oh, don't make dumb decisions, just stay invested. That's not it at all. These are real feelings that we all have. So I just want to validate how you're feeling.
In terms of what to do with your portfolio, you know, like I said before, this is what we expect markets to do. Theoretically let's say you got out now and the Dow Jones, which is a good kind of gauge of how the overall market is doing, or the S&P 500 you could use as well. [00:31:56] But the Dow Jones is at about let's say 20,000.
So let's say that you do sell your portfolio and then the market drops and the Dow is at 15,000. So it's dropped another 25%. Are you going to get back in? Because we know that if we're trying to get out, then we're trying to protect from loss, but we need to be in on the upside. So when you see the market drop to 15,000, are you going to get back in or are you going to be afraid that it might drop further?
Maybe you get back in at 15,000 and then it drops to 12,000. Do you get out to protect yourself or do you put more in because it's dropped more? Every time the market drops the sale is getting deeper. It's like the sale racket anthropology when it's an extra 25% off for an extra 40%. That's what's happening in the market.
So if you buy something at full price, you sure as heck don't want to return it at the sale price when the sale price is 40% off sale. So the point is, if you're going to get out, what's your strategy for getting back in? [00:32:56] Because we need those market returns to get you to your goals.
Unless you just have a boatload of money and you can just fund retirement from cash, which probably means saving about seven times what you're currently saving for retirement, we need the market to get you to your goals. And this is the price we pay for long-term gains, is that there is short-term heartache and short-term losses in the market. But that is what gives us the opportunity for potential long-term gains.
I guess what I would ask you to consider if you're thinking about getting out is what's your strategy for getting back in? And are you going to be able to stick to it? Is your heart and your head going to allow you to actually get back in when the market looks even worse than it does now?
Laura Dugger: That's good. And now what about the other side? If they do have some extra cash and they want to get back in, what would your conversation look like with that person?
Natalie Taylor: Cash is wonderful to have right now. So if you happen to be in this situation where you have extra cash, I would first say, let's make sure that it's really extra. [00:34:01] So is your income secure? Is your emergency fund topped off? And topped off means, you know, if you're a family and you've got kiddos, it probably means six plus months of income.
So let's use the number from before. If you need $5,000 a month to make your family go, $5,000 for six months is $30,000. So if your emergency fund is well-stocked, your income is extremely secure, and your expenses are under control, and you're in really, really good shape, and you've got extra money lying around, and you have goals that you want to achieve that are long-term, like retirement, or maybe your kids are super young and you're wanting to save for college, which is 10-plus years away. Right now and the next several months are probably a great time to deploy those dollars into the market, to buy into a market that's on sale.
There may be deeper discounts coming. So we just don't know. I have no crystal ball. I don't know what the market is going to do. But what we do know is that it's dropped already quite a bit, 30 plus percent. [00:35:05] So if you're looking to get into the market, I would suggest that you consider doing something called dollar cost averaging into the market.
That means investing a specific dollar amount every month for a period of months. So maybe it's, I'm going to put an extra $1,000 in per month over the next six months. I have $6,000 to put in, so I'm going to do $1,000 a month over the next six months. Adjust those numbers to whatever it needs to be for you. But dollar cost averaging can protect you from the possibility that you put all of it in now, and sure, you got a good discount. but maybe tomorrow, or the next few weeks, it drops another 30%. So that six grand that you put in has now immediately dropped 30%.
Long term you're still buying the market on sale, you'll still be fine. But dollar cost averaging can help protect you from putting all the money in and then facing an immediate drop with those dollars. So again, I'm not giving you specific investment advice, I'm giving you some ideas to contemplate and consider as you figure out what's right for you based on your financial situation. [00:36:13]
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's such a creative idea that I had never heard of before. So thank you for sharing that. If you've been around The Savvy Sauce for a while, you have heard our invitation to join our support team of patrons.
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You said you've worked before, during, and after the 2008 recession. So is there anything specific that you learned from that that can be helpful to everyone right now in light of what's going on in our world today? [00:37:15]
Natalie Taylor: Yes, I did. I managed money before, during, and after the Great Recession. I managed tens of millions of dollars for clients. And most of my clients were pre-retired at the time, so they were in their 50s and early 60s, which is a really critical time for clients and for their portfolios.
I will say one of the things that stuck with me of the about 200 clients that my partner and I served, there was one client that we couldn't convince to stay invested. As I look back, the day that they sold out of their portfolio was March 8th, and the absolute bottom of the market was March 9th.
We didn't know that at the time. We didn't know that we were one day, 24 hours from the bottom. But our recommendation was to stay invested because we anticipated, we expected, based on what history shows us, that the market would recover, that liquidity would come back to the credit market, that the economy would right itself, that consumer spending would eventually come back, and unemployment would eventually go down, and that we are much more resilient than we feel like we are when we're in the midst of a downturn. As people, as communities, as economies, as a globe, that we are resilient. [00:38:30]
And I will never forget they sold and so they locked in losses of like 40% in their portfolio. And then they never got it back because they didn't get back into the market. And if they would have just stayed in, the market would have given them that 40% back within a few years. So that was heartbreaking to me.
But it also really, you know, watching what went on in the Great Recession and kind of seeing the inside of how scary that really was, and then seeing us recover gives me a lot of hope for how we can recover from this recession that we are just entering. Because again, as people, as families, as communities, as economies, and as a globe, we are resilient, we are creative, we will figure out how to come back from all of this. There will be some short-term heartache for some more than others, but the economy will recover and people will recover. The economy is just made up of people, and people are resilient.
Again, I'm not crystal balling and saying that we're headed for recovery immediately. [00:39:32] But I'm just saying in general, that was a real lesson for me from the Great Recession is seeing sort of the depth of the fear of what was going on at that time and then seeing how we recovered at so many levels from that situation has given me a lot more resilience and hope for situations like the one that we're in now.
Laura Dugger: I really appreciate that hope. Are there any other practical steps that you could list out for us in hopes of encouraging more wise financial decisions?
Natalie Taylor: I think going through the sort of checklist of, and we've already covered most of them, but I'll just sort of review them, is income first. So doing some thinking about your income. And if your income has the potential of going down or has already gone down, then thinking about what is my list of next places to get money and how much will I need to take on a monthly basis to supplement my income to make it through this short-term period. [00:40:32]
The second one after income is expenses. So thinking through expenses and adjustments that you can make proactively to reduce expenses. One thing that I didn't say earlier but I will add now is, Laura, you back me a couple times about what about those who are not expecting any income impact, you know, that are thinking that they'll make through this just fine. I would encourage those people to look around them and see what they can do to support others around them. And I don't mean just handing out dollars.
For example, if you have a housekeeper that cleans your home, are you able to still keep them paid even though they're probably not coming to your home right now? If you're going to go buy two pounds of coffee at Costco, could you buy two pounds of coffee at a local coffee shop and support that coffee shop? They probably only need to bring in a couple hundred dollars a day to stay afloat. Could you stock up on coffee locally instead of at Costco?
I think it's important to remember that it's not your responsibility to single-handedly bring the economy back in your community. [00:41:32] So I wouldn't go overboard with it, but could you sign up for a CSA box instead of having to go to the market and fight for bananas and try to get greens if you can find them? Could you sign up for a local CSA box so that you can get your fruit and veggies, and many of them also offer bread and eggs, so that you could avoid having to go to the store? You could support local businesses.
I would emphasize that more for those who are more protected from an income standpoint. Certainly, all of us have things that we could do, but I would encourage you to be creative in how can I spend my dollars most effectively to be a good steward of the dollars that I have and make prudent spending decisions, but also are there trades that I can make to support my local community and local small businesses through this season? So sorry for the sidebar. I hope it's helpful, but...
We were talking through kind of what the steps are. So we talked about income. We just talked about expenses. The next one I would say is cash. So how much cash do you have? How much is in your emergency fund? [00:42:32] Is it stocked up? If it's not fully stocked, what can you do to get it stocked up in the short term? Maybe it's reducing paying down debt for now. Still, please make your minimum payments.
If you are in an income situation where your income has gone down substantially, if you have student loans and you're on income-based repayment, you can ask them to reassess your income earlier than they normally do so that your payments can go down. You can also request forbearance on student loans. So there are some options with student loans that you can take advantage of to get some payment relief. And finding other ways to stock up on cash.
The next one is your portfolio, which I think we've talked about in-depth, but in general, staying invested at times like these is a great strategy so that you can participate in what we think will be an eventual recovery without any crystal ball promises. But history has shown us that there will be an eventual recovery and it would be nice for you to be able to participate in that for the market to give back what it's taken away. [00:43:33]
And then the last one would be debt. So are there things that you can do to optimize your debt right now? Like refinancing your mortgage when interest rates are super low, or maybe refinancing private student loans at a lower interest rate since interest rates are low. So I would say those five things would be your checklist. Income, expenses, cash, investments, and debt.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. Great summary. I love that encouragement to support our small business owners and keep them afloat where it's possible for us to do that. Natalie, all of this has been incredibly helpful. Where can everyone go to learn more from you online? Again, just a reminder, how can they sign up for that email list?
Natalie Taylor: So if you go to my website, and Laura, it sounds like you'll link to it in the show notes, you can sign up for my email list. There'll be a little pop-up that allows you to download a values guide that we talked about in our last episode together, Laura, a couple years ago. And then you can sign up for my email list and I will send out periodic information like the letter that Laura has been referring to, to be helpful. [00:44:39] So you're more than welcome to do that. I would love to have you on my email list to stay in touch.
I also work in... I have an individual financial planning practice. So that means that I help clients one-on-one with all of these decisions and walking through balancing all of the goals that they have and the things that they want to accomplish. So if you want to email me, I'm hello@natalieanntaylor.com or you can go to my website and it's easy to contact me from there as well.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. And Natalie, you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Natalie Taylor: I love this question, Laura. I would say my savvy sauce right now is being intentional about what I call wide lens, narrow lens. Being intentional about before I take action or before I make any decision is going wide and saying, okay, what are all of the things that I'm considering right now? [00:45:40] What are the things that I'm thinking? What are the things that I'm feeling? Let me take in all of that macro information.
And then once I do my kind of wide lens assessment, then I go narrow and then I say, okay, what do I need to focus on today? What do I need to focus on in the next hour? What do I need to focus on in my business to make the highest and best use of my time and my money?
I think that practice of going wide lens, narrow lens has been a lifesaver for me and has helped me stay really steady and positive and efficient and effective in my work and in my home life with all of this going on, to be able to acknowledge the big picture of what I'm thinking and feeling and what's going on in the world and not stick my head in the sand.
But at the same time, then use that as I discern where do I need to be narrowly focused in this moment? What work can I do that is most helpful to the people that I serve, whether that's in my business or in my house? So I think that practice of wide lens, narrow lens has been my savvy sauce right now. [00:46:41]
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. Natalie, I just appreciate getting to be friends for so many years now. There is so much I admire about you. But today, I admire that you were willing to generously share all of this wisdom, simply in hopes of being helpful to everyone listening. And that's in line with your life because you have the most generous approach to life in the way that I see you using your time, your talents, and your finances.
I just want people to know and for you to know that I fully trust you. And I just want to say thank you for sharing some sound and peaceful counsel with us today. I loved having you as my returning guest.
Natalie Taylor: Thank you, Laura. Thanks for having me. I think it's really important that we support each other in this time, however we can. And I think we all have gifts and talents to share with the—maybe not share with the world. [00:47:41] Some of us are supposed to share it with a lot, and some of us are supposed to just focus on a very few. So not to say that all of us have to be shouting from the rooftops. I think we all have work that God's given us to do in the sphere that He's placed us in.
So thank you for giving me the opportunity to share. And I really do hope it's helpful. And thank you for your kind words. And I also treasure our friendship and it's wonderful to be back.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:48:47]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:49:52]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:50:53]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Mar 30, 2020
Monday Mar 30, 2020
97. Guiding Our Children Through Their Emotions with Julie Roth
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 56:8 (NLT) “You keep track of all my sorrows. You have collected all my tears in your bottle. You have recorded each one in your book.”
Julie Roth has been married to Marty for 14 years. They have three children ages 10, 9, and 6. She is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, has a Master’s degree in Human Development Counseling, and is currently pursuing a Master's in Counseling from Westminster Theological Seminary. She is on the Board of Directors at Peoria Rescue Ministries and has been a consultant to other ministries in the Midwest. She loves teaching the Bible, counseling, and watching Dude Perfect with her family. And while David says in Psalm 139 that we are all fearfully and wonderfully made, Julie admits to wishing that life as a mother did not come with such bags under her eyes!
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian Schools
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
It's a pleasure to introduce you to my guest and my friend, Julie Roth. She is a wise parent and gifted counselor, and you're going to love the creative ideas she shares to help us build relational capital in our family in order to guide our children well through their range of emotions. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Julie.
Julie Roth: I'm excited to be here with you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Well, it is always a blast to record in person, especially with a friend. So first, will you just tell the rest of our friends listening a little bit about yourself and your season of life? [00:01:18]
Julie Roth: Sure, so I am married, have been married for 14 years, have three children. Their ages are 10, 9, and 6. I am a member at a local church here in the Midwest, and I am on the board of directors at a local rescue ministry.
I have a master's degree in counseling, so I'm licensed in our state to do that profession, and I'm pursuing another master's in counseling through Westminster Theological Seminary, and I'll be done, Lord willing, next year. I have the opportunity to counsel in our church, counsel in the community, and I love mentoring and consulting, whether it be people or organizations, and I am dabbling in some public speaking.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome to hear that snapshot. I just want to say that something I admire about you is the way that you slow down to parent and understand your children's emotions. [00:02:23] So can you teach us what that actually looks like for you?
Julie Roth: I'll try. Slowing down is really a good description, I think, of it. For me to understand my children's emotions, it requires that I get to know them. I think for several years, I was under the impression that because my kids were birthed by me and they live with me all the time, that I somehow knew them fully and I kind of took it for granted.
To understand their emotions, I first need to understand them uniquely. Even though I have three kids in the same home, parented hopefully the same, they are very unique. I need to focus on them individually to understand them. But then also to learn to understand how they speak and what language they speak. So essentially, I have to be really intentional to be a student of my children. [00:03:24]
Laura Dugger: That's such a reminder that we all need to be intentional students of those around us who we love. So now for each of us, if we want to understand our own children's emotions and help guide them, what are some questions you recommend we begin to ask?
Julie Roth: I don't think that there are magical questions. These are some questions that I just started doing in trying to understand my kids. One of them would be to identify what do they value or what do they not value? I think that's really helpful for me with each of my kids.
Also, what annoys them or what excites them? It helps me see the different facets of who they are and then how their different emotions will play out and what they will look like.
Big ones for my kids beyond that would be, how are they encouraged? [00:04:24] That was a hard one for me to identify with two of my children. One was very obvious.
So the flip question, which was more easy for me to answer, is how are they discouraged? Or when do I see my child deflate? Is it when they weren't recognized for something that they were really excited about and proud of or was it when they didn't get a reward? Was it when they received speech that was more harsh or stern? Was it when someone said something really mean?
Those are just some examples of when I would see my children deflate. And it was usually in situations that were public or where I was observing them.
For me, it's harder to observe my children be encouraged or discouraged when I am directly engaged with them because I am distracted by my own emotions or my own thoughts or my own agenda. [00:05:32] So that's where being a student and observer of my child is helpful because when they're interacting with friends or their dad or siblings, or teachers, then I can see when they get puffed up and when they deflate, if that makes any sense.
Laura Dugger: That totally makes sense. I think those examples help drive it home. So even going back to that first one, you said, what do they value or what don't they value, are there any examples on the top of your mind?
Julie Roth: Sometimes it is through emotion. They'll be excited. Sometimes it's through action. So what are they protecting? What are they regularly carrying around? What do they bring in the car with them? Those are tangible objects.
But then what do they talk about? What is it that they go to bed thinking about and wake up thinking about that then they verbalize or they do when I'm observing them to see this is something really important to them? [00:06:37]
Another question that's been really helpful in communicating with my children is, how are they motivated? One child may be motivated by what they can gain, what reward they'll receive, while another child might be motivated by what they can get away with.
So I will talk with one child who they want to know the bare minimum that they have to do in order to avoid a consequence. That's a type of motivation, right? But the flip side, just like with the encouragement and discouragement, how are they discouraged? When do I see that they will not take action regardless?
For one of my children, it would be when he feels that he has disappointed you, that he's behind, that he's already failed. For one of his siblings, they would be motivated when they feel like they're the underdog, and they would put forth a lot of effort to achieve something. [00:07:43] But for him, when he's the underdog, it almost paralyzes him. So that's really helpful for me in communicating with him as a parent because I'm going to approach them from a different angle if I'm needing to get them to take action in a certain area.
The last question that I'm regularly going through would be, what emotion or motions does this particular child regularly experience? Which ones do I not observe them experiencing a lot?
Then finally, what emotion do they follow blindly? With that last part, I mean, if one particular emotion hits a child and every time they experience that emotion they will not challenge it, but they will follow it wherever it goes, that is something that I do a mental check for and know that I'm going to be speaking in during the peace times so that I can do some training and educating of them. [00:08:55] That when they enter into those emotions and follow blindly, now we have some language and a plan of attack.
An example of that would be anger. When anger hits, there's no questioning, there's no challenge of whether this is good or not, whether it's appropriate or not, but one child will just go where that emotion takes them.
Laura Dugger: I think that really helps to understand it with an example of anger. Another one that comes up would be sadness, if they would go down that path. Are there any other ones that you've seen?
Julie Roth: Shame, humor even. So joy, excitement. I think any emotion a person, whether they be a child or a parent, can almost become a slave to. They want to hold on tight for that ride because they interpret that emotion as being advantageous for them, whether it's a curiosity or a desperate need to see where it goes. [00:10:04]
I think that each of us have at least one, if not multiple, emotions that we don't challenge and that we almost view as the leader or a best friend that we always want to be around even if they're not good for us.
Laura Dugger: That's so true. I think even in my own life at the new year was 2020 and I was listening to a message, a sermon, they were kind of talking about this topic and just what do you need to let go of in your life maybe that you don't even want a part of it, but you don't recognize how much it's taking over you? And for me, it was false guilt.
So what you're saying, just following blindly, I don't want that to be a part of my life. But as a 34-year-old woman, I'm still battling that frequently. So how much more would our children be experiencing this?
Julie Roth: That's right. I think that that's what makes me so excited about the opportunity to speak into our children to understand their emotions and then use scripture to help them rightly interpret their emotions. [00:11:11] Because if at age 5 or 9 or 15 they have tools and they're in a regular habit of utilizing those tools to discern, why am I feeling this way, is it appropriate, should I, is it biblical, if they're able to identify that there is an emotion there that might want to motivate or influence their thinking or actions, how beautiful the life that they get to navigate with those tools and that knowledge.
Laura Dugger: It overflows into so many areas. And it's so life-giving to other people in addition to themselves. So now that you've laid this foundation and we have some of these questions we can begin to ask our kids, let's flip the script. What questions can we begin to now ask ourselves to make sure that we're approaching this with the correct posture?
Julie Roth: I started asking questions of myself because I kept finding myself failing with my communication with my children. [00:12:17] I would find myself almost at wit's end not understanding why the wisdom or truth that I valued was not connecting with them. And so I started to ask these questions.
The first is, is this the right time for me to speak into my child? I think there are two components to that. One, where's my child at? So are they emotional to a degree that they're not able to hear me? So it could be super excited, it could be very tired, it could be angry.
When my children are tired, just to use that middle example, they are not good listeners. They don't have it almost in their body to either sit still or to focus. So I learned that it was foolish of me to use a lot of words during those times of my children being tired because it wasn't helping them. [00:13:19] It was torturing them, probably, and just infuriating me.
So where are they at to maybe receive whatever wisdom that I want to share? But on the flip side, where am I at? And where are my emotions? Am I distracted? Am I tired? Am I angry? Am I pursuing their good or my own agenda? So there has to be that pause for me to say, "Okay, I've observed this in my child. I think it needs to be addressed. But is this the time to do it?"
Laura Dugger: I love it. So starting with taking inventory of where everyone is. Are there any other questions that you walk through for yourself?
Julie Roth: Absolutely. Once I determine that the message to be conveyed can be received, I need to check with myself, where are we at in the relationship? What relational capital do I have to speak into this particular child? [00:14:21]
More often than not, it'll be okay. But there are times and seasons where when I will not necessarily connect with one child, and we just seem to be out of sync. And in those seasons, I really need to evaluate, am I the best person to speak into them or would maybe my husband be that person? Which means delayed gratification, right, for me. I have this message, I think it's really important, it is best for my child or maybe even best for our relationship if I hold on to it and allow a better person to speak in.
Or if it's not necessarily my husband to speak in and I feel like I think I should, what do I need to do to strengthen the relationship with this particular child before I speak in? So that might mean that we allow the intense emotion to dissipate and then we might have some fun. We might spend some time playing a game or playing outside, reading a book, just having some quality time one-on-one so that that particular child knows that when I speak with them I am for them and that relational capital then is secure for me to convey the message that I think that they need to hear. [00:15:47]
Laura Dugger: And then it's probably more impactful to them at that time because they're also feeling secure in the relationship, right?
Julie Roth: Exactly. Then the third, which is no doubt the most important for their understanding and navigating life, is where does Jesus enter into the situation? Or how is the gospel relevant to them in this moment? And then what does it look like?
So, I think it's the most important, but I have to do the other work first to make sure that this important message and the pivot to Christ is received well and conveyed well.
With anger, where does Jesus enter in? How does Jesus have relevance to that particular child? What about sadness? It's a question that I'm always asking myself. [00:16:46]
Here's another way to say it. How does the gospel inform my communication? The message and the way that I convey the message. So it comes to me and then I communicate it to my children. Where is Jesus in the situation and how is the good news relevant to them?
I've mentioned anger. I think it is something that as a mother with three children, I see it often. When I'm talking with a child about their anger or my anger, we pivot to the cross and the relevance of the gospel. God's anger was poured out on Jesus so that we would be forgiven and that the stain of our sin would no longer rest upon us.
Laura Dugger: With that, if it's somebody's first time hearing this, and they want to use this example with their own children, what would their next step look like after explaining that to their kids? [00:17:53]
Julie Roth: I regularly will then communicate with my children, this is why mom needs Jesus too. So it's not just that you need Jesus because of your sin, you live with me, you see that I sin, we both need Jesus. Mom needs Jesus too.
And I need Jesus not only as Savior who has allowed my sins to be forgiven but also I need Jesus as Lord to direct my path and guide me. So even though Mom has accepted Jesus in her heart and is forgiven, I still am very foolish and I need Him to guide me. And so I ask for forgiveness, but then I ask him to give me wisdom to know how to live life well and live life without sinning.
Laura Dugger: The way that I've witnessed your life, it is so intentional and you're so thoughtful with this entire approach. I really appreciate you sharing all of that. [00:18:55] Just to catch everybody up, a little side note here. When our family moved to Illinois, multiple people were suggesting that I connect with Julie because they knew we would be fast friends. But it wasn't until we lived here almost four years that I finally got to meet Julie.
The first time we met was actually when she was a speaker at our mom's group. And that day, she spoke about unique ways we can practically apply this information, the topic that we're discussing today. So, Julie, will you share examples of how we can use scripture and games to connect with our kids?
Julie Roth: With scripture, I love using it. I'm usually late to use it because I want to do it on my own and it's not working. So then it's like, Oh, Lord, I forgot to go to your wisdom for myself.
But I think the posture to use scripture is not to beat the child over the head with it. [00:19:59] It is employing, how do I understand this child to think? How do I understand this child to feel? Do I understand how they speak? Which is kind of what we're talking about. I'm going to use scripture and weave it into those areas so that they can understand it. I think this is the key to understanding our children.
The purpose is, in one form, for us to learn the language they speak so that we interpret scripture into that native tongue for them. So using scripture is not, well, here's the memory verse, or you need to do this with the hitting of the fingers toward the child. It is using scripture to illuminate their mind and to draw their heart to the Lord because they have need for him. I'm going to use it carefully. I'm going to use it lovingly. [00:21:03]
Laura Dugger: I remember one of the examples you used about this was about God collecting our tears. Can you share that story?
Julie Roth: Sure. This was my daughter who was really sad and she was really feeling the blues. I didn't really know what to do. And so we were just sitting, holding hands as she was crying. I knew I could not change the situation. I knew that I could not take away her feeling.
So we sat for a while, and the Spirit just brought to mind one of the psalms that tells us that God collects our tears. So I just asked her that question, do you know that the Bible says that God collects our tears? And instead of it being a speech that I gave her, which I'm sure happens all the time in our house, God really allowed me to ask questions. [00:22:09]
So I inquired to her, why do you think he does that? Why would God collect tears the way your brothers collect Pokémon cards and you collect Shopkins? I think that's kind of strange. So she thought about it in her tears and she said, Well, I guess he thinks that they're important. And I said, Yeah, I think you're right. But why are they important? Isn't that kind of a strange thing to collect?
At this point, the tears had kind of stopped and she was engaging her mind and pondering things of the Lord. I think that's the greatest distraction in our emotions. And it's not a distraction that we run to, I don't think, out of fear of feeling them, right? We're still feeling the emotion and also pondering: where is God in this emotion? [00:23:07]
And by wondering about why God would collect tears brought us to that place, and she said, "Well, I guess God would collect tears and think that they are important because He wants to remember them." And I tell you what, I got chills because my daughter, who is in pain, is speaking truth into my heart. And I said, "I think you're absolutely right. He remembers them and he views them as important because you're important to Him and He sees you. There's nothing that you're experiencing that he doesn't recognize as important. And so He wants to remember that."
Then we talked about, so if He's collecting these tears, that means He has to be really close because tears are close. They don't go out like a sneeze does. They stay close to our skin and they roll off. [00:24:11] So our God is near collecting them with us in the experience.
You know, it didn't change her circumstance. She was still sad. She wanted to talk with her dad about it. But there was a comfort that came as she considered that verse in scripture. It's a surreal comfort. It's that peace that surpasses all understanding of how we can experience a strong emotion, ponder who God is, still feel that strong emotion, and yet be okay in it, to feel that comfort, to know that we can overcome it because God is with us.
And that's what happened later in that evening and even the next day. It was this recognition that she survived it. This emotion that was too large for her and was very overwhelming did not overcome her because God was near.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. [00:25:13]
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Laura Dugger: For that last one, a little bit more lighthearted, you said you can use games to connect with your kids.
Julie Roth: I love using games. It's fun and they're super engaged. You can use any type of game. It can be, you know, when you're playing ping pong back and forth. It can be when you're playing checkers. It can be when you're doing Jenga.
Whatever truth or emotion that we need to talk about can be discussed in a game format. [00:27:22] I'm a counselor so a lot of my games that I will use with clients we do at home too and Jenga is one of those where I will number every Jenga block and put them in that tower and I have a corresponding list of questions or maybe actions that would be paired up with a number.
So as we're playing Jenga, which is a competitive game of stacking blocks on one another and then trying to pull those blocks out without the tower falling, one of the children will pull out a number, then we look at the list and they have to answer that question.
At first we might be playing the game, but every single time near the end we're really having good discussion back and forth and the children have to remind each other or I have to remind them, "Hey, whose turn is it? We need to actually keep playing the game." [00:28:24] But it's a great dialogue.
Then when the children aren't really too much into it, answering the question that is, then we'll pull another block. It's just a way for us to have meaningful conversation about whatever topic while engaging in that fun side too.
Laura Dugger: What would some of those corresponding questions sound like?
Julie Roth: If they were about emotions, it would be, what emotion do you feel the strongest? Or, what emotion do you not like to feel? Or, when I am at school, I feel (fill in the blank). "I am most hurt when someone says this."
It really is getting to know the children. I play too, so they get to hear Mom's perspective. When dialogue needs to take place or I sense that they want to talk more about it, we will. [00:29:27]
Laura Dugger: Such a non-threatening way to really be intentional and get to the hard issues.
Julie Roth: Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: Okay, let's just take this one step further so we can know how to practically apply this at home in relation to our kids experiencing various emotions. Do you mind just picking a few emotions and going deeper on each one?
Julie Roth: Sure. So we've talked about the blues. We've also briefly touched on anger, but maybe we take a little bit more time there because I do feel like anger is popping up a lot. I have a son who is very gentle, not at all aggressive, yet anger really clings to him and he will follow it blindly, like we were kind of referencing earlier.
We were talking about how emotions are, I think, designed to be more gauges rather than guides. A guide is someone to take you to different places and that emotions want to be a guide. [00:30:30] But they're really intended to be gauges. They're intended to give feedback to us about how we are experiencing a circumstance.
With anger, this particular child struggled to view it more as a guide, and he would follow it blindly. He really wasn't understanding that concept until he hit one of his siblings. And like I said, he is non-aggressive and very loving, would never hit someone, but in his anger he did, and it surprised him. It really caught him off guard and it disoriented him. He did not know why he did that.
Now this was not immediate. Immediately he was very hot and angry. But when we gave him a cooling-off period and he was able to think more rationally and engage in conversation, I asked him if he would ever hit normally. He was very emotional to say no. And I said, "I agree. I've never seen you hit out of frustration, but this time you hit. Why do you think that was?" [00:31:50] He said, "Because I was really mad."
And I said, "I think you're right. But do you see how that anger, feeling mad, brought you to a place that you never would normally go? You normally live in, I am not a hitter, I love, I am not aggressive, and you followed the guide of anger to the destination of it is right and good for me to hit and I need to do it now." It connected with him. He understood how anger led him astray.
The problem with our emotions serving as guides is that more often than not, that guide wants to lead us farther away from God. Our emotions as guides generally do not direct us upward, they direct us outward or inward. [00:32:52]
Another example. My son was playing outside with friends and he accidentally hit a friend in the face with a ball. Truly accidental. But his heart revealed that he was more concerned about himself and playing the game than caring for his friend. And so we used this God's design in the order of God, others, and self by looking at Legos and looking at the Lego instruction manual.
I talked about how all of the steps were important, right? Equally important. So we flipped step 3, and then we flipped step 73, and I said, "So what if we were to swap, and we put 73 in 3's place, and 3 in 73? What do you think would happen?" And he said, "Well, that would not work at all." I said, "Well, why not?" He said, "Because they're not in the right order." And I said, "You're right." [00:33:55] I said, "The Lego design would look different, wouldn't it? And he said, "Yes. I don't even know that we'd be able to build it." And I said, "Yes."
I said, "That's the same for God's design. When we misorder and put ourselves above others, it doesn't look the way that God designed it. And God's design is better than our design.
I was sharing this with my sister, and her daughter is not into Legos, but her daughter does love crafts and coloring books. And in her coloring book, my sister found a Connect the Dot. And so she thought about my story with my son who struggles with the same things that her daughter does. So she used the Connect the Dot to say, "Let's start connecting the dots. One, two, three, four, five. What if we skipped six and we went to 13 instead?" And her daughter said, "No, mom, I can't do that. It won't look like it's supposed to look." And so my sister used that principle to speak in. "You're right, when we put things out of order, they don't look right. We're putting things out of order now with how we're treating our siblings. So what would be the right order? How do we do this?" [00:35:15]
Laura Dugger: And we talk a lot on The Savvy Sauce about God being such a personal God, but I think this brings it to light that the Holy Spirit is our helper right there, readily available, and we can ask Him in these moments to give us examples like this to really communicate something in a way that's meaningful to our children.
We love our audience. You are the friendliest people. If you ever have questions, or if you want to become a sponsor, or you would like to learn more about becoming a patron, please reach out to us in an email sent to info@thesavvysauce.com. You can also connect with us on social media at The Savvy Sauce.
We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Julie, what is your savvy sauce?
Julie Roth: I think with parenting, and marriage probably too, it is laughter. [00:36:15] I so appreciate the role of mother and the hard work that it takes to be a mom that I don't always relax and have fun in it. That's not my natural state. My natural state would be to take this role, be super responsible, and then take the responsibility of God on myself as well. And that responsibility would be to soften my children's heart, to convict my children, and to rescue my children.
I have a heavy responsibility to expose them to the God who does that, to model my need for that God. But I can't rescue my children. I cannot protect them in all things. I cannot be God to them. And so if I trust God to be God and I do the hard work of being a mom, that leaves me room to rest in God and then to have fun. [00:37:19]
So laughter is my savvy sauce, even though it is not natural to me. And because it's not natural, I kind of have to infuse it into parenting. Some of the ways I do that would be to play games, like I said earlier. Games really help me lighten up and have fun with the kids, let them see my personality and not just my role as mom.
Laughter through the Tickle Monster... As soon as I hear my kids' laughter, I will start laughing too. So I will start tickling and the Tickle Monster comes out and everyone starts laughing and it just lightens the mood and it connects us and bonds us in really sweet ways.
But there are other times when my heart does not want to be light. It does not want to laugh. It does not want to find rest in the Lord. I want to hold on to whatever mood I'm holding on to, and remembering who my children are and were, it's helpful. [00:38:24]
So we'll look at old pictures, we'll watch old videos on my phone, we'll see the silly things that they've done, and inevitably my heart softens and we start laughing again. So laughter would be probably my savvy sauce.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Before I met you, Julie, so many people kept talking about your name and your great reputation, and they were absolutely right. I cannot even begin to express how grateful I am for you. I always learn so much through every conversation, and when we leave our time together, I feel very sharpened. So I'm sure everybody listening is just nodding along thinking the same thing. But thank you for being my guest today.
Julie Roth: It has been such a joy, Laura. I love it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:39:25] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:40:27] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:41:35]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Thursday Mar 26, 2020
Thursday Mar 26, 2020
Bonus: Caring for Your Neighbor, Heart, and Home During COVID-19 with Kathi Lipp
John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.”
Kathi Lipp inspires thousands of women each year to strip down their expectations and lives and live with real purpose. With humor and wisdom, Kathi offers hope paired with practical steps to live with meaning.
Kathi Lipp is the author of 20 books including Clutter Free, The Christmas Project Planner, The Get Yourself Organized Project, The Husband Project, and Overwhelmed. She is the host of Clutter Free Academy the Podcast! with Kathi Lipp and speaks at conferences across the US. She also runs the Facebook group Clutter Free Academy where thousands of women (and a few brave guys) support each other in living a Clutter Free life.
She has become well respected on the topics of clutter from a biblical perspective (who knew there was such a thing?). She is a national speaker and is often featured on Woman’s World as one of their “Ask the Experts”, Focus on the Family, MOPS International, Crosswalk.com, Girlfriends in God and Proverbs 31 Ministries as well as a number of other media outlets around the country.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Ready for Anything by Kathi Lipp
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Mar 23, 2020
Monday Mar 23, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.
96. Understanding and Delighting in Our Differences with Bill & Pam Farrel
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 5:21 (NIV) “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
Bill and Pam Farrel are relationship experts, international speakers, and Directors of Love-Wise. They have been married and in ministry for 39 years. Bill has experience as Youth Pastor, followed by 15 years as a Lead Pastor; then was Pastor of Small Groups for Dr David Jeremiah at Shadow Mountain church. Pam served alongside Bill in youth work then served as Director of Women’s Ministry during Bill’s years as a Pastor; They have written 50+books including best-selling Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti , Red Hot Monogamy and their 10 Best Decisions series (for couples, singles, parents, grads, leaders, men and women). Their books have been translated into 15+ languages. They have spoken for a wide variety of groups: overseas for missions, the military and government sponsored events (including keynoting at National Marriage convention sponsored by government of Singapore); In the USA and Canada for churches, conference centers, community groups as well as the military and businesses. Their wit and wisdom make them popular speakers and podcast, radio and TV guests (Moody network, Family Life Today, Focus on the Family, Dr. Dobson’s Family Talk radio, A Better Us TV and most TV networks). The Farrel's also enjoy helping people with their most vital relationships online in the Living Love-Wise Community. Recently, the Farrel's moved near Bill’s 90 year-old parents to help with their care. The Farrel's enjoy time with their grown children, their spouses and young grandchildren, and when they are not working in ministry, or with family, you may find them walking the beach, biking, or kayaking from their down-sized home on a live aboard boat docked in Southern California. www.Love-Wise.com
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Connect on social media:
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Facebook Group Mentioned: Red Hot Wives Challenge
One of Many Books by Bill and Pam Farrel:
Men Are Like Waffles — Women Are Like Spaghetti
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone! I want to interrupt our normal rhythm to acknowledge what's going on in our world right now. I'm actually recording this on Thursday, so the circumstances with the coronavirus will likely be different by the time this episode reaches you on Monday.
Regardless, there are some timeless truths I want to both say and pray over you right now. Some people may be wondering why. During a time that seems justifiable to produce high levels of fear, why are some people able to experience inner peace? Even when this situation looks bleak and scary and unknown, how do some people still have a sincere inner joy? There are many sentences from the Bible that God uses to address this. I want to read just a few of them to you now.
First, in Isaiah 26:3, it says, "You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose thoughts are fixed on you." [00:01:01] And then in 1 Peter 1:8, Peter gives us a word of encouragement about Jesus when he says, "Though you have not seen him, you love him. And even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy."
If you desire this perfect peace and this inexpressible joy now and forever, cry out to God. Wherever you're listening to this right now, just call on His name, He will answer you. The Bible says in Jeremiah 29:13, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."
We'll get to our episode soon, and we plan to continue releasing content as a form of normalcy for you to enjoy no matter what your situation looks like today. But before we hear this episode, will you just join me in prayer? God, we call on Your name right now. [00:02:00] I don't know where this is landing today and what all of the situations are. Some of us are listening and are gripped with fear. Some of us are ill, and still others of us may be frustrated with this entire situation. Wherever we are, Lord, will You meet each one of us right there?
Right now, God, I pray you provide Your perfect peace that transcends all understanding. We know You offer peace that's different from the peace the world offers, and we just want to declare that we are placing our hope and faith and trust in You. Please guide us with our next right step and be our comfort. We need You every moment. Thank you for allowing us to approach You wherever we are. You are such a good God. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
[00:02:52] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:03:10] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Bill and Pam Farrell are ministry leaders and authors of numerous books. Together we're going to discuss so many topics related to marriage, including communication, intimacy, conflict, and how we recharge in different ways. This is incredibly helpful for anyone who wants to understand their spouse or significant other better. [00:04:14]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Bill and Pam.
Pam Farrel: Hey, so great to be here. I love listening to you.
Bill Farrel: I have never been on a show called Savvy Sauce before, so looking forward to it.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Well, you just start us off by taking us back all the way to your childhood and share how both of you discovered Jesus to be your Savior and writing to be one of your passions.
Pam Farrel: I'll go first. So if you look at my life, I was born into a very chaotic, kind of crazy home. I'm the firstborn daughter of an alcoholic dad that had severe rage issues. Like, I always thought that our family would make the headlines, but not for a good reason. More like, Man shoots family, then shoots himself. A lot of domestic violence in our home.
My mom had a best friend named Kathy. [00:05:14] And that best friend lived Jesus in front of my mom and loved my mom with Jesus' power. So my mom got curious. She's like, "What do you have, Kathy, in your life that makes you so happy and you and your husband have a strong marriage? I love your kids and you're just so loving and giving. What is it?"
Kathy was... she was kind of shy. So she just kind of said, "Hey, Afton, why don't you and the kids just come to church with me and you'll see." And so in a little teeny tiny town in Oregon, in a little teeny tiny church, my mom walked us in. I was the oldest. I was about six or seven at that point. And I was holding hands with my little siblings. We walked in and met such loving people that welcomed us and taught us about Jesus. I saw love. [00:06:14] I saw what love looked like for the first time. And I just knew I want to know the author of love, Jesus.
So the pastor came into our class and he's like, well, we're going to have this quiz team. In a town of like 100 people, quiz team kind of like American Idol. You know, you want to be on the show. And he's like, but you have to memorize Matthew 5, 6, and 7 to be on quiz team. So little firstborn Pam, overachiever, hey, I'm going to memorize Matthew 5, 6, and 7. I want to be on quiz team.
We were doing the Sermon on the Mount and came across that little verse: If you ask, you shall receive; if you seek, you will find; if you knock, the door will be opened unto you. I remember thinking in my little heart, wow, Jesus, does that mean if I ask you to come into my life, that you would be my best friend, my Savior, my Lord?
Also during that time, if you memorize verses, there was this little treasure box, and you could pull a prize out when you said your memory verse. [00:07:17] So I memorized Psalms 23, and I pulled out this little cross, and it glowed in the dark. And I'm like, So cool. And so I pinned it onto my bulletin board.
Well, that day while I was sitting on my bed, trying to memorize all of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, about halfway through, my dad had been drinking all day and all night. He was in a rage. My sweet Mom trying to talk him down. It got very scary.
So little firstborn Pam, worried about her little brother and sister, I run into my brother's room, and I gather my sister, my brother, and I bring them back into my room. I shut the door. I pushed a chest of drawers, a dresser in front of the door so Dad couldn't get in and hurt us. I tucked my brother and sister into bed. Then I shut off the light, and I climbed into bed. And there glowing in the dark was that little cross, and on it, it read, Jesus lives. [00:08:15]
And I remember thinking, "Wow, the pastor's been telling me that you're stronger, Jesus, than anything, that you're more powerful than anyone, that you're more powerful than death itself." And if you're all those things, and I believe that you are, please come into my life to be my best friend, my Savior, and my Lord. And P.S. God, if you could work it out, I'd love to marry a pastor one day." And God answered all those cries of that little girl's heart.
Started on a new life, went from pouty Pam to perky Pam. The joy of the Lord became my strength. Even though my parents' marriage got worse and worse, and it got more and more crazy and chaotic and volatile at my house, God was there with me., Emmanuel. And I am so grateful that a precious, shy friend of my mom invited us to come to church.
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness, Pam, that is such a captivating journey. [00:09:17] Thank you for sharing all of that. Bill, will you share your side as well?
Bill Farrel: Sure. I grew up in a home where my mom, I would describe her as a wounded natural leader. And because she's a natural leader, she was the dominant personality in my home. And because she's wounded, she was afraid of almost anything you can imagine.
I became really aware of it when I was in fifth grade. I was told I couldn't know Jewish people, Black people, anybody whose dad was a doctor, or anybody whose parents were divorced. Because I was told those four groups of people were out to get us. It was a real problem for me because my best friend at the time was a Jewish young guy whose dad was a doctor and his parents were getting divorced. So I started asking the question, is my home normal? And I began to realize my home's very different.
One of the things my mom did out of her fear is she isolated us down. [00:10:15] So the only people I spent time with growing up was my family of five. So my mom, dad, my brother, sister, and myself. We didn't have any extended family, no family friends, and we weren't allowed to go anywhere where there were groups of people, which means I was never going to meet Jesus in a typical way because church was out of the picture.
But then my sophomore year in high school, I went to see an evangelistic film called The Exorcist. That movie got me reading the Bible. And the thought that got me was, about halfway through the movie, I said in my heart, "I don't see any difference between me and the girl on the screen. So if anything like that could happen, and I knew Hollywood had overdone it, but if anything like that could happen, what would keep it from happening to me?" I left with no answers.
And because our family was so isolated, I didn't know anybody to talk to. But we had a Bible in our house. So I started reading the Bible. I started sleeping with the Bible because I'd seen vampire movies, and you know, if you hold a cross, they can't get you. [00:11:22] So I thought, well, if I have the Bible with me, they can't get me.
After a month of doing all that, I read 1 John 4:4. It says, "Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world." And the light went on for me. That night I asked Jesus to come into my life and be my Savior and forgive me for my sins.
The first thing that happened that made me knew that something was different is I slept all night that night. That's the first time I'd done that since I'd seen the movie. And because we weren't allowed to go to church, my brother and I started a Bible study at our high school that grew to 60 high school students who simply shared, what did God teach you this week?
The first night that we got together, there were five of us, and we all shared what we had learned that week. And then, okay, well, what do we do now? And somebody in the group said, "Well, let's pray." Oh, that's good. Let's pray.
So we prayed, and in the prayer we prayed it would double. And the next week 10 students showed up. [00:12:23] So we went, We know how this works. So we went through, we shared what we had learned. We prayed for each other. We prayed it would double again. It went to 20. Then it went to 40. And we didn't think we'd have enough room to keep it doubling. So we just told God at that point, you just make it whatever size you want.
And for the rest of that year, 60 of us got together, sharing what God was teaching us that week. And for me, it was electrifying. Because the first time in my life, I had real friends. The people that were there were genuine in their faith in Christ. And we were sharing what God was doing in our life right now.
So Jesus became very real to me. And things woke up inside of me that had been numb. Because my response to my home was I just went numb. I was tired of being hurt and I was tired of being disillusioned. So I went numb, which means you couldn't hurt me, but I didn't feel the good side of life either.
And when I started walking with Jesus, things started coming alive inside of me that I didn't even know existed. [00:13:23] And so ministry became very exciting to me. I knew by the time I was halfway through college, I knew that a life of ministry was what I wanted to do with my days here on earth. So it's been awesome being married to somebody who's as committed to ministry as I am. It's been a real privilege to be able to minister to people around the world, teaching them how family works, which is still fascinating to me. Because when you grow up in a chaotic home and you end up having a healthy marriage, it's a pretty amazing thing that happens.
Pam Farrel: People always tell us, wow, you defied all odds, you two. We celebrated 40 years together. We just did celebrate 40 years together. Our family wrote us a book that’s like, the 40 reasons why we admire your marriage, from our kids and grandkids and daughter-in-laws. And it was so precious. We sat there and just cried because we are a walking miracle of God. Our marriage probably shouldn't even have lasted a month because we came in with so much baggage, but God began to unpack that baggage. [00:14:27] And yes, God can do that for everybody.
Laura Dugger: Amen to that. That is so incredible to hear all of that backstory. I think that's a great topic to cover today. So, for our chat, I'd love to focus specifically on one of your bestselling books related to marriage. And that's the one called Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti: Understanding and Delighting in Your Differences. So will you two just tell us more about those differences?
Pam Farrel: We got to tell you the story about the title because it makes it another God miracle.
Bill Farrel: Well, one of the things that's very true about us is we realized early on we couldn't trust our instincts about relationships because the homes we grew up in didn't develop our instincts very well.
Pam Farrel: We had to be very proactive and hunt down mentors. Bill would take us to church. We went into ministry early. We got married at 20 and we were youth pastors. [00:15:31] We would go and we stand at the back of the church and holding hands and Bill would survey the crowd. And he would look for couples that looked like they still liked each other that had some gray hair, couples that were maybe hugging or holding hands or arm around his or her back. And he'd go plant us behind them.
Bill Farrel: We had a greeting time at our church, so they had to meet us. And when they met us, I would look at the husband and say, "Hey, you look like you're in love with this woman. Is this real?" And if he said yes, I would say, "Well, how did you do it?" You don't have time at church to have that conversation. So that usually led to an invite to lunch. And over lunch, we would ask them questions like, what do you do every day that keeps you in love? And what are the things you've done you wouldn't repeat because they weren't smart the first time?
Pam Farrel: What's the hardest time and season you've ever been through and how did you survive it as a couple?
Bill Farrel: What kind of habits have you developed as a couple that keep you connected? [00:16:30] And we started to discover real wisdom from those couples.
Pam Farrel: So because of that, we really saw the value of mentors and mentoring, and our hearts really kind of turned to like, we really want to be those people that people can come to as mentors to them. So we had this open heart to want to share anything that God was teaching us that helped us with everybody else.
So fast forward, we have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. We moved to a new community. Bill's 28. He takes over as lead pastor of a church. And we're thinking, how do we best reach this community? We're both athletes, and so why don't we volunteer in youth sports? So Bill ended up as the president of the basketball league. One day in the gym, a man came to Bill.
Bill Farrel: He said, "Hey, you're a pastor, right?" I said, "Yes." He said, "You work with couples?" I said, "Well, yeah, we do actually. We do a lot of training in our church." He said, "Can I bring my wife in to see you? Because I think she's broken."
Pam Farrel: Him and Bill, [00:17:33] "You guys have a great marriage. I really want what you have, but I don't have it right now."
Bill Farrel: I was really intrigued by what he meant by she's broken. So I said, "Yeah, why don't you come into my office, and let's just see what happens." Well, they came to my office. This woman is probably the most verbal woman I've met in my lifetime. I know studies say that women have more words every day than the average man does. She's definitely in the top 2% or 3%.
So they came to my office, they sat down, he looked at her and said, "Go ahead." And she started talking right on cue.
Pam Farrel: And she was jumping from subject to subject to subject. The husband looked at Bill with this panicked look.
Bill Farrel: So I said to him, "Why don't you think about her conversation like a plate of spaghetti? There's a bunch of noodles on the plate. Every noodle touches every other noodle. And she's going to have to go through and just touch every noodle. She may jump from one noodle to another very, very quickly because they're all connected to one another. [00:18:33] So just let her go through and connect all the noodles in her thinking.
Pam Farrel: She's actually trying to connect her life to you. It's a compliment. So the guy's like, well, how do I do that? Bill taught him some listening skills. So the woman talked straight, 55 straight minutes. And she finally breathed, and she sat back and she's like, Oh, that was so great. Probably the first time she wasn't interrupted. And that's why she valued it so much. She's like, "That was so great. Okay, if I'm like spaghetti, then what's my husband like?
Bill Farrel: And I said, "Well, we're out of time for this week. But let's get together a couple of weeks and I'll share that with you." Like we've been doing research, but I had just come up with the picture on the spot.
Pam Farrel: Like we knew that there are differences in our DNA, XX, XY, estrogen, testosterone. There are so many differences underneath the skin of each male and female. And God made us that way. In Genesis 1:27, it says God created us male and female. [00:19:33] This was before the fall of mankind. So it's actually God's plan that we are unique in our difference. So the question is, how do we make those differences work for us? So we've been doing all this research, we have the science, we had the Bible, and so Bill just started praying.
Bill Farrel: I have two weeks. I need a food analogy that shows how men process information. And my boys were making toaster waffles one day, and I said, "Oh, I think that might work." Went back to this couple and I explained to them, Well, the way men process information, it looks like the top of a waffle. There's a bunch of boxes. All those boxes are separated from one another by walls. The way we as men operate is the first issue in life goes in the first box. Second issue goes in the second box. Third issue goes in the third box and so on. And we as men, we spend time in one box at a time in one box only." So when a man is at work, he is at work. And when a man's in the yard doing yard work, he is in the yard doing yard work. When he's watching TV, he is watching TV. [00:20:36]
And as we mature, we jump boxes faster, but we still only handle one box at a time. So I explained this to this couple and I said, "Well, sir, it's your turn to talk this week. Is there something you'd like to bring up?" And he said, "Yeah, there really is." I told the wife, "Okay, you have to stay on the subject he's going to bring up. You're going to immediately see other subjects that are related and you cannot bring them up this time." And I'll take notes on it so that we know what subjects you want to bring up later, but you can't bring them up now." I had to be kind of the relationship police that day because six times she tried to change the subject.
Pam Farrel: Back to box number one.
Bill Farrel: And they solved the issue in my office that day.
Pam Farrel: And they were on the brink of divorce.
Bill Farrel: I went home to Pam, I said, "Pam, I think I've got something and we should try it out at a seminar."
Pam Farrel: So Bill explained what he had shared about men compartmentalize. And so their brains are like how a waffle looks and women integrate. So their brains look like one noodle laying on a plate of spaghetti that touches every other noodle. [00:21:37] I remember my response was, "How? That is really clever."
Bill Farrel: She said it's corny.
Pam Farrel: "Corny and cheesy. But God gave it to you. And I trust God and I trust you, Bill. And if it helps somebody, yeah, let's use it. Let's try it. Let's see how it flies." That weekend we had a small conference in our community because we had another book that had come out, Pure Pleasure: Making Your Marriage a Great Affair.
So we had this little marriage conference of 25 to 30 people. It was small. And we decided to add in that men are like waffles, women are like spaghetti segment. Well, it was the hit of the night. Everybody was talking about it. One of the main reasons why is because we shared that every guy on his waffle has a blank box. There are no thoughts. There are no words. There's nothing going on. And guys park in that blank box. [00:22:37] We women get radar. And so we ask, so what you thinking?
Bill Farrel: Which is a really hard question for us, because in that blank box, there are no thoughts, there are no words. As men, we are literally thinking nothing.
Pam Farrel: Nothing.
Bill Farrel: And our wives have a hard time accepting that. So as husbands, we try telling the truth. We say, nothing. And the response we get is, "Well, you can't be thinking nothing. You have to be thinking something. So what is it?"
Part of our ministry is helping people realize every male has the ability to think absolutely nothing.
Pam Farrel: Not a blank. Nothing.
Bill Farrel: But because the truth didn't work real well, the next time you ask the question, there's a delay that takes place. Our eyes start darting back and forth because we're looking for a box somewhere nearby that has words in it so that we can answer the question. And then our wives misinterpret the delay. [00:23:35] And they start to think, oh, you don't want to share what you're really thinking. So now you're making something up. And in reality, we were just thinking nothing.
Pam Farrel: Nothing. It was a big hit. We are different in the way we communicate, in the way we manage stress, in the way we romance, in the way we parent. So we just kept building, building, building on the differences. It was so positive that night.
There was a young couple that was a newlywed couple. They saw the article about us in the newspaper and so they came to this little seminar. What we didn't know is he was the weekend program director for the largest talk radio station in San Diego where we're living at the time. And he's like, "Hey, have you guys ever thought about radio? You are so great."
So we came in on Valentine's Day that year. We prayed on the way down. "Okay, Lord, we know that the only super glue that can hold a couple together is You, God. And so let us even on this general market station, let us be brave enough to share the truth about You being the answer. God is love." [00:24:45]
The general manager walked in, he shook Bill's hand, and he's like, "So nice to meet you. I understand that you're a pastor. I would just assume that you would share the spiritual dynamics and how God can improve relationships." So we ended up on radio doing a radio talk show. Men Are Like Waffles, Women Like Spaghetti ended up becoming a book, and then a DVD series that churches can use for small groups or couples can just go through together. Then there's a singles version of Men Are Like Waffles, Women Like Spaghetti, a teenage version. And now it's also translated into more than 15 languages around the world.
Bill Farrel: So often when we talk about differences, it gets viewed in a judgmental way, or somebody's trying to establish superiority. And it's not that way. It's a great benefit to the family. It's a great benefit to marriages. And it's a great benefit to our communities that we bring different gifts to the table.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. [00:25:46]
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. [00:26:49]
To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: It sounds like you two celebrate those differences. Maybe the first three differences that come to mind, could you elaborate on those and share what it could look like for a marriage that celebrates rather than resists those differences?
Pam Farrel: Bill likes to quote his favorite philosopher.
Bill Farrel: That's Rocky Balboa. In the Rocky movie, Rocky was dating Adrian, and Adrian's brother, Polly, was concerned about the relationship. So, he approached Rocky one day, and he said, "Hey, what do you do with my sister?" And Rocky's response was, "I got gaps, she got gaps, together we fill gaps," which is really good relationship advice because we all have gaps.
Pam is way better at multitasking than I am. [00:27:50] When we were raising kids and we would put together the family schedule, if I was in charge of the family schedule, I would be hacking stuff out of the kids' lives because I couldn't keep up with it. Where Pam would look at it and say, Oh no, we can do this, we can do that, we can make this happen, they can do this. And she would put it all together in a system that worked without stress.
Pam Farrel: It's the benefit of being a spaghetti. We integrate everything. I like to say, if you look at the way a woman's mind works, it's like one noodle laying on a plate of spaghetti. If you follow that noodle around that plate, it touches every other noodle on the plate. So, we're fabulous at multitasking or toggle tasking, as it's sometimes called today.
So, we can be on the phone with a friend, her life's falling apart. We're like, "Hey, have you listened to Laura on The Savvy Sauce? I think that her show could really help you. Start listening to that podcast." And we're cooking dinner, we're talking to our kids in sign language, telling them to quit fighting. [00:28:52] Can't you see I'm on the phone? We have a load in the washer, load in the dryer, and we can open and shut the oven door with our foot. It's amazing how great women can be at multitasking.
Bill Farrel: Right. And it's amazing when Pam shares that, women applaud her and the men say, "I'm tired just listening to you say that."
Pam Farrel: That brings to the first area of our differences. That's communication. The way we communicate is very different. Bill likes to school guys up on the way women communicate.
Bill Farrel: Right. Because when a wife approaches a husband and says, "Honey, we need to talk," the first thing men tend to do is they go into problem-solving mode. They're going to size up the problem, they're going to provide their male insight into the problem, they're going to solve it right in front of her and be a big hero.
So, we tell men, guys, when it's your wife's turn to talk, first thing you want to do is turn off that fix-it mechanism you were born with, pack up your bags, and go on a listening journey with your wife and let her take the conversation anywhere she wants it to go. [00:29:54] Because what your wife is doing is she's connecting her life to you because it's one of the primary ways that women develop trust. That if a woman thinks you are important, she's gonna connect her life to you because when she gets enough of her life connected to you, trust turns on like a light bulb. And when men see it that way, they're like, well I want my wife to trust me. So now I'm willing to listen without having to solve everything.
Pam Farrel: They get motivated to listen. And then for women, I tell women we can basically out-talk guys. And so what is a gift to the guys, they're packing up their bags and going on a listening journey, what we're gonna do is we're gonna stay in the box. When a guy brings up his subject to talk about, it's actually that subject that he wants to talk about.
We women see the five or six other boxes surrounding that first box and we just start opening up boxes. The problem with that is men are problem solvers by nature. So when they have one box open, that's one problem to solve; when they have two boxes open, that's two problems to solve; three boxes open, that's three problems to solve; and so on. [00:30:59]
Every male has a limit on how many boxes or how many issues he can have presenting at the same time. If we get too many boxes open, we'll know it because one of two things is probably gonna happen. He'll either fire up and become angry and we're like, "What? I was just talking." Or he'll just shut the conversation down and want to escape to one of his favorite easy boxes like maybe the garage and then you're chasing him out the door with your words and nobody's needs are getting met there. One of the gifts that we can give is the gift of staying in the box.
One of the questions I get asked most by women is how do I get my husband, my son, my dad, you know my brother to open up. I encourage them with the story of a girl who came to me. We were youth pastors at the time and so Bill was doing a lot of premarital and wedding with college kids.
So she came to me, she's like, "I'm so excited to get married to my fiancé and he's handsome, he's godly, he's a good provider, he's patient, he's kind, but I think something's wrong with him. [00:32:05] I think he is broken. I think what they call it in university is emotionally shallow. And I just started to smile. And the reason why I was holding back a laugh is she just haven't found the key to opening up her guy's heart. And that is men like to live in, dwell in, camp out in boxes they feel super successful in, and avoid boxes they don't feel successful in.
So I asked her, "Hey, tell me about your fiancé" because I'm looking for the box he feels comfortable or successful in. She's like, "He's a racecar driver." I said, "There you go. Baby girl, you just get yourself into that garage and repeat key phrases. Just repeat back what he's talking about about that car." And she's like, "All right. I'll try that."
So she goes out to the car and of course, he's working on the car. So he starts to talk about parts and flywheels and pistons. So she is just repeating back, you know, all these car parts. She doesn't really have a clue what he's talking about but she is interested. [00:33:06]
And he comes out from underneath the car and puts his hand on the hood and he's like, "Wow, nobody's ever taken the time to care about my world like this. Nobody's ever loved me the way you love me. I'm so excited to get married to you. I want to build us a big three-bedroom two-bath house with a balcony out back and a front porch. I'll build a swing set for the kids that will have one day and I'll hang up a front porch swing. And every night when I come home from work, I'll bring you a skinny vanilla latte and I'll just like slide in next to you and hold you in my arms as we watch the sunset. I'll listen to your heart." My friend said, "I never want to leave the garage again."
Laura Dugger: That really paints such a clear picture. I love that because so many people have asked specifically about communication so I think you're laying out how we can both do our part. On a bit of a different topic I'm just curious from your years of study and research, what have you found to be the most common differences for the way that each of the genders prefer to relax at home? [00:34:13]
Pam Farrel: Women we talk our way through stress. Like if I'm stressed out, my mom knows it, my best friend knows it, my prayer partner knows it, the clerk at the grocery store will know it. We talk our way through stress. How guys manage stress is they like to go their favorite easy boxes to rest and recharge.
It's kind of like a battery in a battery recharger. When you look at a battery sitting in a recharger, what does it look like it's doing?
Bill Farrel: Nothing.
Pam Farrel: Yeah but it's doing something. It's recharging. So sometimes we look at our husband like, there's so much stress here and you're what watching TV or playing Xbox, you're on your phone, you're doing nothing. But they're doing something. They're recharging.
God kind of helped us girls out in that most of men's favorite easy boxes are actually shaped like boxes when you think about it. The TV screen is shaped like a box, a phone is shaped like a box, a computer screen is shaped like a box, basketball court, baseball diamond, football field, hockey goal, pool table, the refrigerator is shaped like a box and the bed is shaped like a box. [00:35:19] That bed box, that red-hot monogamy box as we call it, that's the favorite box for husbands to go to when they're stressed out. It's kind of like the free square and a little bingo card and they can get there from every other square on their waffle.
Bill Farrel: I have discovered that with Pam relaxing is all about connections. So she wants to connect with the people that are important to her and the activities that lower stress for her. For instance, just recently she took all of our daughter-in-laws to a spa as a Christmas present. The whole idea is we're gonna take a day where we get to relax. Pam loves the pool. I wouldn't say that all women like to relax by the pool but Pam loves the pool. So she's very connected to the water.
When women get to do what they're connected to emotionally, it just lowers stress. And then she got to do that with the people she cares about in this world. [00:36:21] Like we have prayed for our daughter-in-laws for decades. That our boys would meet women who love them and appreciate them and are great partners in life with them.
Pam Farrel: Love God.
Bill Farrel: So being able to spend time with them and celebrate what God is doing is really what helps Pam do her best. There's always a sense of it needs to be significant, it needs to be important, it needs to add value to my life which is different than what guys do.
Like I just recently spent some time with our sons. We went to a 3D archery range where we walked around out in the desert shooting arrows at targets. So people would ask, well, what do you guys talk about?
Pam Farrel: Archery.
Bill Farrel: We are just about shooting arrows. Because for us we're just disappearing into an easy box where when Pam went to the spa with the girls, they talked about their whole lives.
Pam Farrel: Everything.
Bill Farrel: And so for Pam, it's all about being connected to the people she cares about and to activities that lower stress. [00:37:24] And it's very personal. So what works for Pam may or may not work for somebody else's wife because it's a personal thing of what causes stress to come down. So for some women, they like to be very active, for some women, it's arts and crafty type things, for some people it's travel, some people, it's shopping, but the key is that for her it helps lower stress when she doesn't.
Laura Dugger: I'm hearing a common theme from both of you. So first step is to learn about your spouse and what recharges them. And the second piece of ownership, I think that next step sounds like it works best when each of you are gracious with the other person. When you recognize this may be opposite of how I recharge but I want to gift you with that.
Pam Farrel: Very much so. The Bible tells us in Philippians 2 to consider others as more important than yourself and have this attitude that was also in Christ Jesus. [00:38:25] So we're most like Jesus when we take our eyes off self and look at our spouse and say, what will lower their stress? In Red-Hot Romance Tips for Women, it's a little book and I do a 26-day Red-Hot Wife Challenge. I talk about the plimsoll line on a boat.
Bill and I live on a boat right now and that plimsoll line is very important. And what that is it's a line that goes around the boat and it shows how much cargo or how much weight a boat can carry before it capsizes. Every person, every man, every woman has that proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. They have a plimsoll line, how much they can carry before they get so stressed out they can't function.
It's very much like Jesus too try to lower the stress of your partner. Do things that will ease their burden. The Bible also tells us to bear one another's burdens. [00:39:25] So when we carry it together, it divides the stress and both of us will come out better.
Bill Farrel: Laura, I would even strengthen what you said by adding we marry what we don't have. Like part of our attraction to the person we're married to is they have something in life we do not possess. At times it's really rewarding and really fulfilling and really fascinating because you get to experience what you couldn't experience on your own. But at other times it's confusing and frustrating because your spouse approaches things differently than you do.
And learning to accept that that's a good addition to your life, learning to be gracious with things you don't understand rather than feeling like you need to correct it all, and learning to applaud the differences and say to one another, well, I could never accomplish what you just did and I would never have come up with that on my own, but I'm gonna learn to see the value in it, it's one of the secrets that makes marriage last for a long time. [00:40:30]
Laura Dugger: That is so well said. If this is your first time hearing The Savvy Sauce, welcome! Our team loves what we get to do and we hope that you'll go back and hear all of our previous episodes. For those of you who have been around for a long time, maybe even from the beginning, would you consider joining Patreon?
If you don't know what it is, all the details are on our website at thesavvysauce.com under the tab "Patreon". You can always email us with further questions at info@thesavvysauce.com.
As we go back just a little bit, you did mention the box that's shaped like a bed. Let's talk about sexual intimacy in marriage because you two have written an entire book on that topic. But I would love to know as it relates to the different genders, what would you like to teach us about sexual intimacy in marriage?
Pam Farrel: We have written Red-Hot Monogamy. [00:41:30] It's like an eight-week guide to turn up the temperature behind bedroom doors, you know, fan the flame on love and romance. But the seed of that book actually came out of Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti. We have two chapters there, one on romance and the other on sexual intimacy. So we'll start with romance.
Bill Farrel: The way you romance your wife is you build connections into her life that remind her she's important to you. Sometimes it's really simple things like calling her in the middle of the day and saying, "I didn't call for any reason. I just called to say I love you."
A friend of mine just recently had his wife ask him, what do you know about me that other people may not know?" And he said a really simple thing, "You like crunchy food." And she went, "You're right, most people don't know that." It reached a connection in her heart that just drew her to him.
As men, we tend to oversimplify everything. We want to be able to say things like, "Hey look, I married you because I love you. Done deal. It's settled. [00:42:32] Instead of staying on the journey of trying to continually connect with our wives.
So I tell men all the time, keep looking for connections. If your wife loves flowers, get her flowers. If she loves notes, leave notes for her. If she loves a certain activities, like if she loves a certain sport or she loves a certain craft, invest in it and buy her things that help her be able to do those things in the midst of her life.
The key is not what you're doing, it's that you're making a connection into her heart. Instead of just saying, hey, are you available Friday, instead send her an invitation. Say, "Hey I would love to spend this Friday with you because it would make it the best day of my week." And on Tuesday, check in with her and see if it's possible. Is the schedule going to work? Are we able to do this? On Tuesday or Wednesday, you should give her some guidelines on how to dress. Don't get too controlling, say you have to wear this, but give her guidelines on how to dress. On Friday, go out and just enjoy the evening together. It can be a very simple date. [00:43:31] But on Saturday, find a way to send her a thank-you note. Send it through email, send it through the mail, post it on social media, but thank her for the time that you got to spend together.
Pam Farrel: And you get bonus points if you go to the restaurant ahead of time and leave a little gift because that means you thought of her while you're doing something else. That's like a double bonus. And if you, the guy, arranges child care, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, you win.
Bill Farrel: The key for us men is it needs to be our goal to reach our wife's heart as often as we can. Like, we're already interested in our wife's body and we are very easily aroused physically. But if we make it our goal, I'm gonna reach her heart as often as I can, it opens up the entire intimate relationship.
As men, we're always trying to shortcut the process. And if we will accept that God gave me somebody very different than me, and if I'm willing to make enough connections into her life that our hearts stay connected, you will be very satisfied with your sexual life. [00:44:39]
Pam Farrel: Right. We tell newlyweds all the time, ladies, if you give a man your body, he'll give you his heart. And guys-
Bill Farrel: If you give your wife your heart, she'll be willing to give you her body.
Pam Farrel: That works really well with that other-centered attitude there. And how to romance a guy is clear, simple expectation. Say, you want to go to dinner and a movie, a husband thinks it's dinner and a movie and the bingo box that's gonna happen. Tie together his favorite boxes and one of them is the bingo box. I mean, that is an important box to a guy.
Sometimes though, it's super simple to romance a guy. It might be curling up next to him and watching the football game and bring something wrapped in bacon and only during the commercials. Yeah, simple. [00:45:37]
Laura Dugger: Going back to what you were talking about, Bill, it sounds like you're saying these are ways for men to get their wife in each of their boxes, and that helps romance and pursue her. Is that right?
Bill Farrel: When you ladies say that, it's a little frightening to us guys. We're not sure we want you in every box that we have because we like to reserve some for just guy stuff. But in principle, what you're saying is true. That as men, one of the reasons why God calls us to get married is He wants us to expand our horizons. He wants us to learn that life is more complex than we would normally make it.
As men, we're always trying to simplify things and it's not realistic. When we get married, we start to realize, Oh, life is a little more complex than I realized. For us men, it's a learned skill to learn how to appreciate the complexity that you ladies naturally bring to the emotional side of life and the relational side of life, and the activity side of life. [00:46:40] And when we accept it and say, I'm going to learn from you, our lives get richer and fuller and the whole relationship tends to thrive. But the tendency that men fall into is they try to shut their wives down and keep it simple so we don't get overwhelmed.
In Romans chapter 15:7, it says, "Accept one another then just as Christ accepted you in order to bring praise to God." And when you have that attitude of acceptance that I'm not going to try to change you to be like me, I'm going to accept you as God made you, a couple things happen. One is your relationships start to work better because you're cooperating with the way God created us. Because Genesis 1:27 says that God made us in His image and that included making us male and female.
So all your relationships work better because you're cooperating with the way God made things. But also the praise of God settles in on your relationship. And you start to develop a love for one another that is literally stronger than you could come up with on your own because you're in partnership with God who is the author of love. [00:47:48]
Pam Farrel: When we're other-centered, you know, God adds His parts, kind of like the loaves and fishes. If we bring our little lunch, God adds Himself and everybody's needs get met. But it is a learning curve.
Bill Farrel: Well, I created an app for men because men don't tend to be readers. So I created a phone app called Her Best Friend, which is one idea a day for men on how to connect with their wives at a better level and help the relationship keep growing.
Pam Farrel: So really what we're seeing is everybody get tools in your toolbox to appreciate and value your mate the way God made them.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's also talk about conflict. How does that play out with our different design as either spaghetti or waffles?
Bill Farrel: It's pretty much guaranteed as a married couple that you're going to have conflict because, again, when you marry what you don't have. So there's times that you just don't see things eye to eye. And unless you're being really passive in the relationship, you're going to have conflict. The key to working through conflict is to decide ahead of time how you're going to face it. Because the one thing I wish people had told us sooner in life is that our emotions always follow our decisions.
Conflict is almost always an emotional event in your life. [00:49:15] I've still yet to meet couples who sat down and said, you know, it would be really good for our relationship if we had a conflict. So I'm just going to create one so we can add value to our relationship. It just doesn't happen that way. You get in conflict because something emotionally hits you. And what happens so often in relationships is you get emotionally upset. You haven't decided ahead of time how you're going to approach it. And so you just start to react to one another.
Pam Farrel: We do have default mechanisms as genders. Studies say that we women, we're the first ones to reach out to a third party when a marriage is on the rocks. It's like we have this intuition that something's wrong and somebody needs to help us here. Where husbands, they don't know what to do with all those emotions. So they just shove it down, shove it down. And they end up having heart attacks and strokes. That's not good.
Bill Farrel: The way that God designed it to work is it's very clear that studies show that the alarm system for relationships is in the female side of the race. [00:50:18] As Pam said, when something's wrong in a relationship, you ladies, you sense it. The natural reaction is when you sense that something is wrong, you start bringing it up, you start talking. You're just like an alarm makes noise when something is wrong.
You ladies will start talking and bringing up the subject because you know something needs to be done. As men, what we tend to do is we get defensive because it sounds like, "Wow, you've already thought about it. You already know what I'm supposed to do. You know what you're supposed to do. You know what the whole world is supposed to do." And we feel like we're way behind in the conversation, so we get defensive, which makes you sense that, Oh, something really is wrong because look, he's getting defensive. So then you bring up more, which causes men to become more defensive. And then you get these crazy cycles as couples where nothing gets done.
Pam Farrel: All emotions are escalated and nothing is resolved.
Bill Farrel: The way it's supposed to work is that God put the alarm system in the female side. He made us men good problem solvers. [00:51:19] And those two are supposed to work together. If as men, we can start to say, Okay, the alarm's going off. I need to start asking questions about what's really going on here. Because for couples who discover what the real issue is, couples are really good at solving real issues. The problem is that they don't get to the real issue because they just get in a flurry with one another.
In our relationship, I would tell you almost every time there's a conflict and it's there because of me, it's because I'm feeling left out. And I can trace it back to two things. One, I'm the youngest in my family. And if you're the youngest in your family, you felt dismissed on a regular basis because everybody else talks for you and everybody else decides for you. So you get this attitude of, Hey, I know what's right, but nobody's going to listen to me. So I'm going to have to manipulate instead.
The second thing is I married a very decisive woman and I grew up with a woman who made all those decisions in our family. [00:52:20] Out of fear, my mom wouldn't let other people participate in the decision-making. So she would just decide for you and tell you what to do. And I married a decisive woman, so she can easily trigger that off in me. If I say to Pam, you are being controlling, that does not go well.
Pam Farrel: No, no, that is not a good statement.
Bill Farrel: If I say to Pam, "Pam, I'm being left out of this decision. Can we revisit this together?"
Pam Farrel: So much better. Calms the situation down. In the same way, if it's escalating due to my bad attitude, it's going to be because I'm fearing failure, because first born daughter growing up in a crazy house, I always thought that I had to be the one to carry the burden, to fix the problem, to fix my parents' marriage. So any time when I feel like I'm going to fail, it's going to show up as anger. If I can push pause, "Lord, heal my heart. Let's unpack this baggage. I know that I'm not really angry. I know that I'm hurt. I know that I'm afraid there's some kind of fear here." If I can unpack that before God and then revisit the discussion with Bill, things are going to go better. [00:53:33] That's why we encourage couples to have a conflict covenant.
Bill Farrel: A written conflict covenant.
Pam Farrel: Right. Rules of engagement. How you will manage when you disagree. For example, in Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti, we share several examples of conflict covenants and what should be in them. But some of are: we're going to hold hands every time we argue because I'm just less likely to throw stuff if I'm holding Bill's hand.
Bill Farrel: And my mom was a thrower. So I needed to know when I got married to Pam that she wasn't going to throw plates or food or coffee cups.
Pam Farrel: And, you know, because of the crazy home I grew up in, I mean, things in the conflict covenant are pretty basic. Like I'm not going to swear at you. I'm not going to belittle you. I'm not going to run over you with the truck.
Bill Farrel: Part of our conflict covenant, too, is that we are going to finish every argument. And what we mean by that is almost every argument that a couple gets in is because something you love about your spouse is driving you crazy. [00:54:36] So, like, I love the fact that Pam's creative, but sometimes it feels like she's not using logic. I love the fact that Pam is a decisive woman because she can stand on her own. It's just strong convictions. But when she shares those convictions about me, I'm not so excited about them.
Pam Farrel: Yeah. I love the fact that, Bill, there's a right and there's a wrong. And I love that about him. Man of integrity, right up until the time he's editing my manuscripts with a red pen. Then I'm like, Ah.
Bill Farrel: In marriage, a conflict has been resolved when you have rediscovered what you love about your spouse that was the source of this conflict.
Pam Farrel: People always ask, like, what was your biggest conflict? It's a yearlong argument. It was when our kids were young, I had a 2-year-old and the other boys were in school. I was finishing my education, and Bill had just started as the lead pastor of this church. [00:55:34] So it felt very overwhelming to Bill that I wanted to go back to school and that I did go back to school.
Bill Farrel: It wasn't the activities that Pam was involved in. It was the passion with which she spoke about them. And I had decided in my heart that all those passions could turn on when our youngest son got in school. And she wasn't cooperating with that. The passion is what scared me. I thought if she keeps running with this passion, things are going to get out of balance and we're not going to be able to manage our family and we're not going to be able to run this church ministry and do all this other stuff that's coming out of her heart.
Pam Farrel: It was this fear-based process because he thought he was being left out again. Our conflict covenant says that we're going to finish every argument. So we would get together, we would have a conversation, we would hit the same stone wall. We always start these conversations with prayer and we end them with prayer. So then if we don't solve it, we reschedule. [00:56:35]
And so week after week, we're like holding hands, praying for each other, having a conversation, not getting anywhere, pray for each other, reschedule like week after week after week after week for a year. And we're still dating each other. We're still going out on romantic dates as well. So like we always make sure that the happy side stays in, especially when you have something that is a conflict you're trying to resolve. So Bill called up a mentor of his and they had lunch.
Bill Farrel: I basically asked him, "How do I get Pam to be more cooperative?" And his response to me was, "Bill, why do you need to control your wife?" I was really offended by the statement because I thought, "I don't need to control my wife. I'm just trying to become partners with her and figure out how to do this together."
And after I got done arguing with God about that, I realized, "Yeah, I actually was trying to control Him. [00:57:34] I was trying to get her to tone down the passions that were guiding her heart until our kids got a little bit older.
Pam Farrel: So he thought he was just arguing with me.
Bill Farrel: Right. And I realized the reason why Pam couldn't shut all this off is that God had put this dream on her heart. And I had made an agreement early on that any dream that God put on Pam's heart, I would be fully supportive of. It didn't include supporting all of Pam's ideas because Pam can come up with lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of ideas. But if God put it on her heart, I would be all in.
At this point, I realized I had a problem because Pam had captured a dream that God had put on her heart and I had argued with it for a year. So I knew I couldn't just go to her and say, "Oh, Pam, I get it now. I'm sorry for arguing so much. I'm good now." Because it wouldn't be believable after a year of arguing.
Pam Farrel: Right. The bigger the offense, the bigger the apology has to be. There's a principle there. So I was up on campus, I was in a class and every day in that class, I always had to stand up for my faith. [00:58:37] I happen to mention, "Bill, hey, I know you're going to be up filming on campus. When you walk by this classroom, I'm going to be inside and I'm sure I'll be standing up for my faith, standing up for Jesus. Can you just shoot a prayer up when you walk by my classroom?"
So I was sitting in this class and the professor is talking about romance literature and that romance is dead. It's always been dead. Romance is just an illusion. No two people can stay in love for a lifetime. It's impossible. And all the women are like, "Yeah, because men are scum," and all the guys are like, "When does this class get over?" And the door pops open.
Bill Farrel: And I walked in with a dozen roses, set them on Pam's desk, gave her a kiss, and said, "I love you, Pam," and walked out the door.
Pam Farrel: So the professor's like, "What? Is it your birthday?" And I'm like, "No." He's like, "Is it your anniversary?" "No." He's like, "Well, why did he interrupt the class then?" And I said, "I believe that Bill wanted to tell me that I see the dream that God has placed on your heart to be a writer, to write a book this year, to finish your degree, and I just want to tell you, I believe in your dream." [00:59:44]
Bill Farrel: See, what I know about Pam is she loves public attention. So I figured if I went into her world and made a statement, it would get the message across that your argument is now over and I'm on board. And that's part of getting to know your spouse. If your wife does not love public attention, this is not a great idea. But if your wife loves it like Pam does, then it's a strong statement. And obviously, the statement got across.
Laura Dugger: To see years later that God really has been faithful to all of those desires He put in your heart. And the two of you have done so much of this together. Is there anything else that you two would recommend for both husbands and wives to do so that they can meet the specific needs of their spouse?
Pam Farrel: You know, it's really wonderful to just keep a running list. In the back of Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti, we have date nights. So we really encourage the couples to read the book together and then go out on a date and discuss it. [01:00:43]
One of those date nights is to make a list of dream dates that you each would like to go on and then trade lists. The reason why that's important is because if you want to surprise your spouse or if you take transplanting dates like Bill and I do, there's like a running list. You know exactly what is going to please encourage, you know, a delight, bring bliss to your mate because they've given you a list. Now, it's not a list of expectations. It's just a list of ideas.
And by doing proactive things like that, you cultivate a desire to get to know your mate at a deeper level. That's probably what's most important is just that desire of curiosity. I'm going to keep learning about you year after year after year because God made you for me. God created your spouse to be a good fit into your life. But we have to value our spouse and get to know our spouse and encourage and affirm our spouse to really keep seeing the upside of those differences. [01:01:46]
Bill Farrel: Two things that I would encourage every couple to do, Laura, is, first of all, is to keep dating. The enemy of intimacy is responsibility. Every decade, the average adult in North America doubles his or her responsibility level. So at 30, you have twice the responsibility you had at 20, and at 40, you have four times the responsibility you had at 20.
So many couples, they just drift apart because the responsibility of life takes over. And the only way to fight it is to deliberately interrupt each other's lives on a regular basis to remind yourselves that you're a couple. The person who's more social can plan more of the dates. But take turns planning dates for one another so you interrupt the responsibility schedule and remind yourself that it's good to be you.
The other thing I would encourage is just keep praying together as a couple and keep it simple. Because you'll never fully understand one another, but when you pray, you get to see into each other's hearts. [01:02:49]
Pam Farrel: Prayer is like a window into the soul of your spouse.
Bill Farrel: We encourage couples, make a commitment to pray together on a daily basis for two to three minutes. Keep it short so that you're always able to succeed and restart every day so there's no guilt. And when you commit to a couple of minutes a day, every once in a while you're going to have a longer time of prayer because you just naturally fall into it. And when you see into the heart of your spouse, it renews your appreciation for one another even though you'll never fully understand each other.
Pam Farrel: That cultivating, that spiritual atmosphere and those spiritual skills is like super glue. There's studies out that say that couples that pray together daily and pray for each other daily rate their red-hot monogamy as the highest possible rating.
Couples that attend church together rate their relationship highest satisfactory red-hot monogamy. Couples that are in a small group Bible study and Bill was a small groups pastor for Dr. David Jeremiah for a while and he loved that stat, that if you're in a small group, you're surrounded by people who believe in long-lasting love. So it helps you have a long-lasting love. [01:04:00] As a result, you have a more satisfying relationship, more red-hot monogamy.
So there seems to be this correlation that the more passion each of us have towards God, then God boomerangs that passion back into our marriage relationship and we have more passion for each other, resulting in better intimacy, more red-hot monogamy. It's a win-win.
Bill Farrel: So the things that make marriage work are actually pretty simple if you do the things that work. If your car needs oil and you spend lots of time washing and waxing it, the effort is incredible, but it's not solving the issue of your car needs oil.
Marriage is the same way. When you communicate appreciating your differences, and you resolve conflict appreciating the differences, and you are intimate with one another appreciating the differences, and you work smart in your marriage, it is one of the greatest journeys on earth. [01:04:58]
But if you try to fix one another and change one another and put lots and lots of expectations on one another, then it starts to be very difficult to stay in love with each other. It's like putting spaghetti sauce on waffles and putting maple syrup on spaghetti. But if you appreciate the differences, you get to feast on your love for one another.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is so good. You two have laid such an incredible foundation for married couples. What does this look like when the husband and wife become parents?
Pam Farrel: You know, that's when you have to be super proactive. In one of our chapters, we talk about waffles and spaghetti at home. It will go better with you if you sit down and have some conversations about who will do what and when. We have a worksheet in there that lists all the things that typical couples have to manage. You can check off which ones each one of you think is most important. And then the key is to delegate the things that let's say the wife is most passionate about, she gets a set of cards, and things that the husband is most passionate about, he gets a set of cards. [01:06:09]
Bill and I, we actually sit down about every couple years, whenever our life changes, with a set of three by five cards, we write down everything that we need to manage with our kids, with our social life, with our ministry, with when we were pastoring, with our church, with the volunteer things in our community that we were in charge of. And we do an evaluation of priorities.
We write down everything on those cards, then we take those cards and we give them a ranking. A, B, C. C are like, yeah, we're not going to worry about that this year. Another day, another season, another time. Put an elastic band around it. Put those C cards away to revisit next year. The B's are like, yeah, these are pretty important, but... Could anybody else manage them? Can we delegate any of this to our kids, like teach them how to do the dishes or mow the lawn, delegate them to any volunteer that's a part of, you know, our ministry? [01:07:10]
Then with the rest of the Bs and all of the As, we then play a game that's much like the stock market or the card game pits, where you negotiate. Like, I'll take the science fair and bringing treats to the classroom if you take doing the taxes. And so you negotiate.
The key to making all this work, the person who has the card has the authority to do it their way, their timing and the other person just "thank you, thank you, applaud you, I'm so appreciative that you took that card instead of me". So having that attitude of thanking your spouse for picking up half of life, that's going to make it go easier in your whole home.
And your kids will pick up on that too because you're delegating to them and they'll grow into leaders. Like we have a book, The 10 Best Decisions Every Parent Can Make, and we talk about the learner leader who loves God method of parenting. [01:08:16] And you know what? It works. Our kids all ended up becoming learners and leaders who love God by just every year celebrating their uniquenesses and delegating more responsibility to them and appreciating being on their team. That's really all we're saying in marriage, too, is just be on your spouse's team.
Laura Dugger: I love that idea. For any other ideas, or if people are just intrigued and they want to learn more from the two of you, where can they find you both online?
Pam Farrel: Love-wise.com is our website. Then also we encourage you to hop over to Facebook and like Pam and Bill Farrell. This year we're doing Marriage Mondays at 6:06 Pacific Time and we give you a date idea for that week. Then if wives want to join part of my Red-Hot Wife Challenge group and go through Did you [inaudible 01:09:21] your husband, then shoot us an email. I'll make sure you get in that group. There's a banner that's on our website and you can just click on the banner. We'll make sure the wives get connected and we'll be iron sharpening iron to each other. And then for the guys.
Bill Farrel: Love-wise.com, we're connecting God's love and God's wisdom. If you forget all that, just do an internet search on waffles and spaghetti. I guarantee we will own the front page. Again, you can go to the Apple Store or the Google Play Store and Her Best Friend is the app that will help you gain more ideas on how to stay connected to your wife.[01:09:59]
Laura Dugger: Awesome. We will link to all of those on our website and show notes. Bill and Pam, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And as my final question for the two of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Pam Farrel: I love the verse that is the theme verse for our Love-Wise ministry, and that's Proverbs 19:8. The one who gets wisdom loves life. And we all want more wisdom. Another place in the Bible, it says, walk with the wise and you'll become wise. So, hey, hop on to Love-Wise, become a member of our Living Love-Wise community, look around in your local church, ask to go to coffee with a couple that you admire, and see if they'll be a mentor in your life. Hang out with people who are positive about their marriage and you'll get more positive about your marriage. [01:10:59]
Bill Farrel: And my savvy sauce is hang in there until the next breakthrough happens. Because the way relationships work, and specifically the way marriage works, it goes from breakthrough to breakthrough. Just like the Gospel of Jesus Christ, when you meet Jesus as your personal Savior, there is a breakthrough in life that changes everything. And marriage is a reflection of the Gospel.
So if your relationship is not all that you would like it to be right now, hang in there and pray for the breakthrough. Because when the breakthrough happens, it will change everything, and it will ignite your hearts for one another.
Laura Dugger: That's so encouraging. I have been following the two of you for years and I remember reading your books beginning back in high school. So this was such a treat to connect today. Thank you for being my guests.
Pam Farrel: Oh, I love that. It's really fun. I met one woman who said, I read Guys Are Like Waffles, Girls Are Like Spaghetti. And then I was single and in college I read Single Men Are Like Waffles, Single Women Are Like Spaghetti. And then we just started premarital counseling because we're getting married this fall and the pastor is taking us through Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti." [01:12:10] I said, you can teach the next workshop. So that's your job now. You get to teach the next workshop and you do such a great job week after week on your podcast.
Bill Farrel: Laura, thanks for helping people be more savvy in their lives.
Laura Dugger: Thank you again so much. I want to give a quick shout-out to our lovable daughter, [Aila?] Shalom, who is turning three today. Happy birthday, Aila. I love you so much.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [01:13:11] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [01:14:14] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [01:15:16]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Tuesday Mar 17, 2020
Tuesday Mar 17, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.
95. Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
**Transcription Below**
Jeremiah 30:17 (a) “But I will restore you to health and heal your wounds,’ declares the LORD,"
Sue Goldstein is a Sexuality Educator and the Clinical Research Manager at San Diego Sexual Medicine, responsible for sexual medicine educational programming and clinical research. She works with the SDSM team to develop clinical research projects, write protocols and oversee clinical trials. She also arranges for training in sexual medicine for medical students, residents, fellows and clinicians from all over the country. She works with the Sexual Medicine program at Alvarado Hospital and regional support groups to provide education to providers, students and the public. In addition, she develops programs for The Institute for Sexual Medicine, a charitable corporation dedicated to research and education in the field. Mrs. Goldstein co-authored When Sex Isn’t Good to provide education and empowerment to women with sexual dysfunction. She is managing editor of the journal Sexual Medicine Reviews. Mrs. Goldstein serves on the board of the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health (ISSWSH) as Industry Relations Chair. Past board positions include Global Development Chair, Education Chair, and On-Line Services Chair. She serves on the Education Committee of the International Society for Sexual Medicine and has contributed educational content for the ISSM Online University. She is a 2017 recipient of the ISSWSH Distinguished Service Award. She is a member of the Sexual Medicine Society of North America, the American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists and the Association of Clinical Research Professionals. She is an AASECT Certified Sexuality Educator and an ACRP Certified Clinical Research Coordinator.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
When Sex Isn’t Good by Sue Goldstein and Lillian Arleque
When Sex Hurts by Dr. Andrew Goldstein, Dr. Caroline Pukall, and Dr. Irwin Goldstein
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Equip for Health is a health and wellness company that works with anyone who wants to achieve great health through simple, sustainable daily changes. They are passionate about improving health from the inside out and having a health journey that is both result-driven and enjoyable at the same time. Check them out today at equipforhealth.com and make sure you use the code SAVVY at checkout to save 10% on their online course.
Thanks for joining us for this bonus episode. In the past, we have covered sexual intimacy and marriage from various perspectives. Including spiritual, emotional, and psychological. If you want to hear these episodes, they are easy to find on our website, thesavvysauce.com. [00:01:20]
This week, however, we are looking at sexual intimacy and marriage through a more medical and scientific lens. Early in my career, I remember hearing about this talented Jewish couple who helped people from around the world with a variety of sexual issues.
We had the privilege of chatting with Dr. Irwin Goldstein yesterday. Today we are going to continue this medical conversation with his wife, Sue Goldstein.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Sue.
Sue Goldstein: Thank you so much. I'm so pleased to be here with you.
Laura Dugger: Can you just start us all off by sharing a little bit more about who you are and what you do?
Sue Goldstein: Sure, Laura. I like to say I'm a jack of all trades and master of most, because I do a lot of things. But officially I'm a clinical researcher, which means that I do research with human subjects, with people, to find out if different treatments help them with their sexual dysfunction. [00:02:18]
I'm also a sexuality educator. So in my office, I serve as kind of a patient advocate, separate from the clinicians that will treat the patients. And I also work to help educate both public and professionals so they can learn more about sexual health and sexual dysfunction.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We're talking to general public today. So what information or encouragement would you like to share for a wife whose husband is struggling with erectile dysfunction?
Sue Goldstein: Well, I think women need to understand there are two different things going on when their husband has erectile dysfunction, or ED. They have the biologic changes that make it impossible for them to have the firm erection they had when they were young. There are also the psychological changes. They may not feel whole. They may not feel like a man.
So it's important that we think about what's going on from their psychological point of view as well as the biologic. [00:03:18] It's important that a woman makes sure that her partner understands that she still loves him whether or not he's able to have intercourse, that there are other alternatives to have sexual pleasure, and that if he wants to be treated, she should be there with him for treatment. There are so many treatments in this day and age that can help a man.
There are cases of women who feel like if her partner has ED, it must be that she no longer is attractive to him. And that's totally not true. It's a biologic change that causes the ED through no fault of the partner or the relationship.
So for a woman to be supportive of her husband, to go with to the doctor's appointment, talk to him. If he'd rather not be treated, then help him come up with other ways for the bedroom. There are certainly many ways that a husband and wife can pleasure each other without having sexual intercourse. But if that's what their end goal is, then find a competent physician and get treatment because we really have a lot of alternatives these days. [00:04:22]
Laura Dugger: Great. Thank you for just checking in with them and doing a little follow-up. Now I want to talk about a topic that is mysterious to some. But with your impressive medical background, I would like to hear your take on how you think women experience orgasm.
Sue Goldstein: Well, orgasm is that big mystery. First of all, there really are two different questions going on at the same time. Women, it's a matter of what part of their body is going into contraction for orgasm, but it's also what part of the body leads you to get an orgasm. And very often when we talk about different kinds of orgasms, we get those two conversations mixed up.
The most common way that a woman gets an orgasm is through clitoral stimulation. This also will end up with a clitoral orgasm. But the anterior vaginal wall, which we call the G-spot, that is extremely sensitive. And if that area gets stimulated, you may get a more intense orgasm. [00:05:26]
People talk about a vaginal orgasm. We talk about La petite mort, which is really a time where you lose all consciousness. I mean, you're not going to pass out. But a very strong orgasm actually turns off blood flow to a certain part of your brain so that you actually may have music playing in the background, and you don't even notice it's there until you sort of come back to normal afterwards.
So the question is, do we have an internal orgasm and an external orgasm? Do we have an orgasm that's stimulated because of the clitoris, because of internal?
Women who are highly orgasmic can get stimulated and reach orgasm from having their nipples stimulated, which is a wonderful opportunity for those people who perhaps are spinal cord injured and they only have feeling in the upper part of their body, or a woman who has lost sensation through some kind of surgery.
We have the LEEP procedure where they actually burn a portion of the cervix. [00:06:28] And women complain when they have that because there are three different kinds of nerves that actually innervate the cervix. That although if you put something against the cervix, you can't feel it, but if you destroy those nerves, you may lose your ability to have an internal orgasm.
So there's a lot of complications, but the good news is that we have a lot of different areas in our body that are really erogenous zones. You think about Mae West, for those of you old enough to remember, blow on my ear and I'll follow you anywhere. Behind your ear is an erogenous zone.
So if you don't get an orgasm through the more traditional methods for whatever reason, there are other parts of your body that can be stimulated. Some people only get an orgasm once in a long while, and some people get 5, 6, 7, 8 orgasms every time they have sexual activity. Everyone's different. There's no right and there's no wrong, except if you've never reached orgasm.
Then it may actually be a physiologic problem. We've actually found women who don't even know, but they have no feeling inside their vagina. [00:07:32] They don't know that. We find that out on testing, and then we can potentially, for some of these women, treat them and they reach orgasm. But you also may not reach orgasm because your partner doesn't do enough foreplay with you. There are so many variables.
If you feel you are having trouble with orgasm, then seek a specialist. Your gynecologist may not really have enough knowledge about this. You may need to go to a sexual medicine specialist. But in sexual medicine, we say, if you are different from somebody else, that doesn't mean anything. Everyone is their own norm. But if you have a problem that distresses you, that bothers you, if you're not reaching the kind of orgasm you did when you were younger, for instance, it's now a little blip when it used to be a volcano, you have a right to seek help and try to restore. That's sort of my mini-lecture on orgasm.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And just how we were designed, you said, to have so many different types of orgasm. But let me just clarify. With treatment, do you believe it's possible for every female to experience orgasm? [00:08:38]
Sue Goldstein: I think that the answer is yes and no. We are still learning so much that we probably don't know all the reasons why women don't experience orgasm, but we're slowly learning more and more. So yes, I believe that as long as we can discover the etiology, in other words, what is the problem, then we can have a solution. It's just we haven't yet discovered what all the problems are.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's very clear. From the flip side, what are you noticing with the women who are more easily orgasmic in any of these ways? Is there any type of pattern that you've identified?
Sue Goldstein: Well, for a lot of women, it may be as they age, as they're going through menopause, it may be after they have a childbirth, they get what's called HSDD, hypoactive sexual desire disorder. And if you lose interest, you may still have sexual activity with your partner because you're having mercy sex or duty sex. You love your partner, you don't want him to stray, you want him to feel good, and so you have sex, and your body still responds, you still arouse, you still have an orgasm. [00:09:43] But it may be that little bump instead of the mountain.
So we find if we treat the HSDD, that will improve arousal and orgasm if that's the particular problem. That's very common because HSDD is the most common sexual dysfunction among women. That's easily treated now.
We have two FDA-approved treatments for premenopausal generalized acquired HSDD. That means that you once had normal desire, and now it's less, and that it happens in all instances, not just with one particular partner. So we can use those off-label for postmenopausal women. Matter of fact, in our office, we even use the mock label for men. But if you increase that desire, the data show us that those same medications also help with arousal and orgasm.
We have a thing called responsive desire. So once you're in the act, your body starts to have more desire, and so then it arouses more, and it's orgasm. And that is so common. It is the most common sexual dysfunction. [00:10:49]
The other thing with orgasm that we have recently discovered, because we have a unique collaboration with a neurophysiologist named Barry Komisaruk at Rutgers University, and with a minimally invasive spine surgeon named Choll Kim here at Alvarado Hospital, we have discovered that some women actually have an annular tear or a cyst in the cauda equina, which is actually the tail end of the spinal cord.
If the MRI is read by a radiologist, he's going to say, "Oh, it's incidental, it doesn't mean anything." But these very, very small defects sometimes result in a woman having severe pain or having persistent genital arousal, but sometimes it results in a woman having no sensation inside her vagina.
We had a patient who hadn't had an orgasm in 30 years. This new collaboration with the spine surgeon, we discovered that she had just a minor annular tear, and he repaired it surgically. And she go home that day with a bandage on her back. That's all it is. It's not a big open surgery. [00:11:56] And she came back in for testing a week later, and she had full sensation, and now she's able to reach orgasm.
Those are two very different ends of the spectrum of why a woman had trouble with orgasm. So my point was that until we know it's wrong, we can't make it better. But as we're discovering more and more things that can go wrong, it gives us an opportunity to make more and more women better.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. What kind of life change are you seeing for these women?
Sue Goldstein: Our women who are treated report to us that when they have HSDD, they don't feel like a whole woman. They feel beige. They just don't feel like really participating in life. And when we treat them, they notice that not only do they feel whole again, but there's a playfulness in the relationship with their partner that they didn't realize was missing.
They love their partner. They've had a good relationship. That wasn't why they had no desire or low desire. But it's the biochemistry in the brain has changed. And these new medications change the biochemistry in the brain, bring it back to where it used to be so that it brings a whole playfulness, a whole new dimension into that relationship. [00:13:06]
Laura Dugger: I love that you've just offered hope to people listening. I'm also curious, from your career in education and research, are there any commonalities that you've noticed among women who do struggle with sex?
Sue Goldstein: You know, the only commonality is that they're all women. But the fact is that this knows no cultural lines, no age, no ethnicity. All women can get any kind of sexual dysfunction. It's not that all women get it, but all women can. Then all women go through menopause. The majority of women going through menopause because of the change in the hormonal milieu will have changes to their sexual function. But again, you can treat menopause, and that will restore sexual function.
Can we talk about menopause for a couple of minutes?
Laura Dugger: Let's do, please.
Sue Goldstein: Okay. Women know they have vasomotor symptoms going through menopause. And most people think once those vasomotor symptoms are done that they're finished with menopause, and now they're post-menopause, which means they're no longer in menopause. [00:14:11] Well, that's wrong. Post-menopause and menopause are the same thing.
Once you haven't had your period for 12 months, you are technically in menopause, unless, of course, you've been surgically, your ovaries have been removed, and then you're immediately in menopause. You no longer have the hormones going through your body that do a lot of different things, in particular, keep your genitals healthy. So women think that when they no longer have hot flashes, they are done.
That's their choice, that they choose not to do anything. But the fact is, if you choose to go through menopause and not have any hormones, essentially your genitals go back to where they were when you were a little girl, before you had hormones. But they get small, they get dry, they get cracked, they get painful.
Myself I'm on hormones because I want to stay healthy. And people will say to me, "Well, I want to go through menopause." And my response is, If you had hypertension, would you go through that naturally, or would you take an antihypertensive? [00:15:11] If you had diabetes, would you do that naturally, or would you want to take a medication? If you had cancer, would you deal with that naturally, or would you want to fight it?
So to me, menopause is just another biologic change, and I choose to treat it so that I can stay healthy. That keeps my genitals healthy so that I can have intercourse without pain, without cracking and bleeding. And ladies, if you opt not to take any hormones, and you don't have to have systemic hormones, that's a different thing, but local hormones, in other words, medications, estrogens, and androgens, that you put on your genitals, prescribed by a physician or a nurse practitioner. Please do not do this on your own.
But if you choose not to do that, everything will — atrophy is the word — dry up. Your vagina is an accordion. The accordion goes away. The skin itself will get thin. So if you're trying to have intercourse, it may crack and bleed.
But all of that can be restored if you go on hormones, even if you don't have them right away. It will take a little time, but we can restore health so that you can have pain-free intercourse. [00:16:18] Because if that's your goal, then you have a right to get that treatment and have enjoyable sex.
One of my jobs as a sexuality educator is to empower women. And I always say the educated patient is the empowered patient. You need to know about your own body, and you need to make shared decisions with your clinician, but ultimately it's your decision. And I would never say to a woman, you have to be on hormones. That's an individual's choice. But what I do say is you should find out the correct data and not get your medical information from a newspaper. You should find out what the real data are and make an informed decision.
So my job as an educator is to say, well, educate yourself, and then make a decision. Don't just assume there's nothing out there to help you. Because too many clinicians don't want to start the conversation. Women believe there's nothing to help them. So if you're listening to this broadcast, please, if you have a sexual problem, you start the conversation with your clinician. [00:17:19] You may think he or she is going to be embarrassed if you start the conversation, but your doctor may actually be very relieved that you started it because they didn't know how to start that.
One of the things we teach in our courses is how to start that conversation with the patient. Because patients want to hear what's available for them. Patients need to hear, you know, you're 60 years old, you've been in menopause for eight years, you're probably painful when you're having sex, right, Mrs. Jones? It's nice for you to know that you aren't the only one experiencing that.
And then because that conversation has started, it's an opportunity to say, okay, what can you do for me so that I no longer have painful sex? Because you have that right.
Laura Dugger: I love it. And I love that you point just to that word, restoration, and that hope is there. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: What are the differences and similarities between male and female experience of sex in general?
Sue Goldstein: That is a great question. For men, all sex is good, whether it's good sex or bad sex. For women, good sex is good, and bad sex is miserable. I'll go a little further. For instance, if a man, as he ages, isn't quite as hard as he used to be, he can still, I'm being very graphic, he can still enter his partner's vagina, he can still ejaculate, and he has good sexual experience. But because he's not as hard, it doesn't enter her vaginal canal quite the same way. It's squishy, for lack of a better word. And so she feels like he's pounding into her, and so she may have pain that she wouldn't experience if he were harder. [00:20:31]
I mean, right there is literally a physical difference. She's miserable. All she can do is say, just get it over with already. I love you, but I'm miserable. And he is, "Wasn't that great, honey? I had a good time." That is a huge difference.
Then the other difference, I think, is the fact that women are not necessarily comfortable saying to their partner, do this, do that, or comfortable saying to their clinician, I have a problem. Whereas I think a man is much more forthcoming if he has an issue. Not 100% of the time. Certainly, there are many men who don't want to talk about it. They may hide it from their partner. They may go to the doctor and get medication, whether it's oral, a pill, or injection that he does on the side because he doesn't want his partner to know. But he's more likely to get treated than she is, and she may just be totally in the dark. But to me, that's kind of a huge piece.
The other thing is that a man doesn't need foreplay, and a woman needs foreplay. We worry, you know, did a woman not reach orgasm because he just had a firm erection? Two, three minutes later, he's done, and it hasn't had enough time for her. [00:21:39] So if she can have foreplay, then she's sort of primed and ready. And if he doesn't last a long time, then she has a better opportunity to reach orgasm.
So that's why when we talked before about orgasm, we talked about etiology, find out what's going on. Let's find out if it's really a problem with her or if it's a problem with him. If she has discomfort, is it because he's not firm enough? So all sex is good to a man, but not all sex is good to a woman.
Laura Dugger: One of our listeners specifically reached out to learn more about the O-Shot. So can you share why that's actually a marketing gimmick?
Sue Goldstein: I have to tell you that that bothers me so much. O-Shot is platelet-rich plasma, which is an experimental therapy, and a lot of places around the world do platelet-rich plasma, including San Diego Sexual Medicine, where I work. We do it as an experimental therapy. We tell our patients, you know, try it and see if it makes any difference. [00:22:39]
There are no data that show giving a woman PRP in her clitoris or in her G-spot makes any difference. The fact is that O-Shot is a trademarked name or a patented name. I'm not sure which it is. But using an O-Shot means you're getting discounted purchase of the equipment through being part of this larger buyer organization, and at the same token you have to charge a specific price. So it's all a marketing gimmick. It may help somebody. It may not help somebody. But I believe in being upfront.
In our practice, as I said, we would offer one injection and say, if it makes a difference, we can try it again. Although I have to tell you we very rarely use PRP for women. We use it a lot for men with erectile dysfunction. And when I say a lot, we offer it. If it seems to help, we'll say, why don't you try it another couple of times? We don't use it very often for women.
But the most important thing as a researcher is show me the data. And there is not a single publication that I am aware of showing the efficacy of PRP in the clitoris, PRP in the G-Spot, or what we call the O-Shot. So buyer beware. [00:23:50]
It's important that you know what you're doing. I always say people spend more time shopping for a used car than they do shopping for a physician. And really do your research before you go someplace. Anyone who says this is going to work for you... No treatment, no treatment works 100% of the time. And anyone who tells you this always works is a liar. It's just not possible.
Everyone knows Viagra. We know Viagra is great. That's a trade name. In my world, I would say Sildenafil. But it only works in 60% to 70% of people. Most of our sexual health treatments, our sexual medicine treatments work in 60% to 70% of treatments. Even aspirin, no matter what you take, there is no medication that works 100% of the time in 100% of people. Buyer beware.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing your passion because I can tell you're protective of your patients and you do want what's in their best interest.
If you've benefited in any way from The Savvy Sauce, we would love to invite you to become a patron. [00:24:53] If every listener gave just $1 per month, it would completely offset all our production costs. We want to keep majority of our content free to the public, and one way to do that is with your help. Please consider joining Patreon today and finding out what perks you can receive for pledging $2, $5, or even $20 per month.
So are there any other sexual products or sexual trends that we need to be aware of or even avoid because they're also falsely advertised?
Sue Goldstein: Whoa, that's a big question. I think we have to be careful of some of the compounding pharmacies that promote compounded medications that are available as FDA-approved medications. People don't understand the word bioidentical. People think that bioidentical means it's compounded.
Bioidentical means it's the same chemical structure as the chemical that's naturally made in your body. [00:25:53] So when we use bioidentical estrogens and bioidentical testosterone, it means that if we give you the medication, we can then draw blood and we can see how much of it is in your body because it's identical to what your body naturally makes.
The FDA has many bioidentical estrogen products that are available for women. And unfortunately, there are no testosterones for women. They're all for men. But what we use is we would much rather use a testosterone that's been FDA-approved for men. And by FDA-approved, it means it's been checked for safety and for efficacy so we know it's not harmful and we know it works. So we use that but in the correct dose for a woman. We wouldn't use the same amount for a man.
But there are a lot of compounding pharmacies or companies that promote their compounded estrogens and testosterones, and they push making people think that that's the only way they can get treatment. Compounding pharmacies are wonderful. [00:26:54] We have medications that are not available any other way, and we depend upon them.
But when you have a choice between something that's been approved by the FDA and something that's not, I would caution you to always use the one that's in the FDA. And that's really your clinician, how they write the prescription. But there are some clinicians that have these hormones they keep in their office and they sell them. It's not that it's a scam, but it's one thing that, are they there because they want to make you better or are they there because they want to make money?
I always tell people we aren't in the business of making money in our practice. We're in the business of making men and women better, of healing them from their sexual health problems. And you know when you help men and women, the money will come. I mean I'm not rich. We put a lot of our money back into our practice because we do a lot of our own research that we pay for ourselves. But I will never starve. I will never be naked.
If you do the right thing, you will always be okay. This is really my message. I mean make sure you're going to a clinician. [00:27:56] It can be a physician, a nurse practitioner, physician assistant. Those are the providers that can prescribe for you. And sex therapists who aren't prescribers, but they provide a different kind of treatment, just make sure that they're legitimate and they're not there because they're trying to sell you a product.
Typically we see these men's health clinics for men where they promote inappropriate treatments for patients who shouldn't have them. We don't see them as much for women except for in the hormones. So be careful. Make sure you're getting a bioidentical hormone because otherwise we can't tell what's in your body. And make sure if it's available as an FDA-approved product, that that's what your clinician prescribes.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for that education piece. We could go so many different directions. So as we're winding down, is there anything else that we didn't get a chance to cover today that you wanted to mention?
Sue Goldstein: I think there are so many different kinds of sexual dysfunctions that people don't know about. One of them is the scariest. It's persistent genital arousal disorder. And it's a situation we're finding now that it's often caused by that defect in the cauda equina, in the spine that we talked about before. [00:29:03] But it causes a woman to have a feeling of constant arousal. There may be no actual physiologic arousal, but in her brain she feels aroused.
The reason I want to broadcast this now is because we believe it's far more common than we knew. And these women are desperate. When they talk to their local provider, very often the provider's never heard of it. We've heard horror stories of a male gynecologist who said to the woman, Oh, I wish my wife had that. I mean, that's devastating when you have something that you can't even leave your house without having this awful feeling.
We've had a school teacher, if she'd ever told anyone she had this, they would think she was being aroused by the children in her classroom. And of course, she's not. There's no desire. There's no interest. It's just your body is turning on you and doing this. So I caution anyone listening who knows of someone with PGAD, do not make fun of them. This is a devastating disease. Women kill themselves every year because they can't function with it.
If you're listening and if you have PGAD, reach out to your provider. If you can't find someone who can help you, reach out to us. We understand this disease state. It's horrible. But we've been able to help a lot of women. Some we've been able to cure, some we've been able to help them get under control.
Keep your eyes on the prize. Do not lose hope. There is help out there. Every year we're learning more and more and more. And what we don't know today in our field, maybe we'll know tomorrow, maybe next year, maybe the year after. But this is one of the most devastating disease states in sexual medicine. So I just want to share that, to give women hope that we're helping these people. [00:30:37] And God willing, someday we won't lose anyone to suicide, but we'll be able to help everyone.
Laura Dugger: So true. I'm glad that you mentioned that. And whether that's someone's struggle today, or if there's another issue, and they're curious to find out more from you, where can they find you online, Sue?
Sue Goldstein: We're sandiegosexualmedicine.com, or if your fingers are too tired, you can actually write sdsm.info, like Sam David, Sam, Mary. You can find me, you can find everyone in our practice, you can find out a lot of information about various disease states that we treat, and some of the treatments that we can do.
Or go on Amazon. I co-authored a book called When Sex Isn't Good. My husband co-authored a book called When Sex Hurts. When you come here as a patient, if you're a pain patient, we give you a copy of When Sex Hurts, otherwise we give you When Sex Isn't Good.
When Sex Isn't Good goes back to the 1990s, but much of what we said still is true there, only we have the new treatments for HSDD and new treatment for PGAD. But they're there to educate, to empower, and to give women hope, because that ultimately is my goal. [00:31:42]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We will link to all of that in our show notes, and also on our "Resources" page of our website, so listeners can find it very easily. Sue, I just have one final question for you. We're called the Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So we would love to hear today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Sue Goldstein: My Savvy Sauce is the advice I gave to my daughter and my daughter-in-law as they each had babies, and they weren't going back into the workplace right away. I think every woman needs to have something that they're passionate about. And it's something that's not involving your partner, your children, something that means something to you that you have ownership of.
I mean, I wake up every day loving coming to work, and I'm passionate about it, but I do that with my husband. I tell people he had a dream, and one day I realized it was my dream too.
To me, I love Pilates. It keeps my body healthy. And when I'm on the Reformer, my body is totally focused on my own muscles and nothing else in the world. [00:32:42] I love to read. I love fiction. It's an escape for me. But most important thing to me is singing. I sing in my temple choir, and my husband comes to hear me sing. I sing in my car, and I'm alone. I always have music station on. That is my source of pleasure and focus.
When my children were growing up, I was working part-time, and I didn't want to get lost in that great big world. I was able to join a group that every week we had rehearsal, we performed. So to me, having that thing that was mine, I own. My husband likes to think he sings, he can't. He doesn't really sing. But having my music... I play piano. I play guitar, I sing. Having my music and the passion that goes around the music, that's my savvy sauce.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Sue, you are a fascinating and clearly a brilliant woman. I just really appreciate you teaching us about this topic, especially because it's not often discussed publicly with such accurate information. [00:33:41] So I hope listeners found this chat to not only be informative, but also helpful and practical so they can enrich this area of their lives with their husbands. Sue, thank you for being my guest today.
Sue Goldstein: Thank you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:34:44] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:45]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:45]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Mar 16, 2020
Monday Mar 16, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears
94. Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
**Transcription Below**
Psalm 139:13+14 (NIV) “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.”
Dr. Goldstein has been involved with sexual dysfunction research since the late 1970's and has authored more then 350 publications in the field. His interests include penile microvascular bypass surgery, surgery for dyspareunia, sexual health management post cancer treatment, persistent genital arousal disorder, physiologic investigation of sexual function in men and women, and diagnosis and treatment of sexual dysfunction in men and women. Dr. Goldstein is Director of Sexual Medicine at Alvarado Hospital, Clinical Professor of Surgery at University of California, San Diego and practices medicine at San Diego Sexual Medicine. He is also Editor-in-Chief ofSexual Medicine Reviewsand past Editor ofThe Journal of Sexual Medicine. He is Immediate Past President of the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health and a Past President of the Sexual Medicine Society of North America. He holds a degree in engineering from Brown University and received his medical degree from McGill University. The World Association for Sexual Health awarded the Gold Medal to Dr. Goldstein in 2009 in recognition of his lifelong contributions to the field, in 2012 he received the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health Award for Distinguished Service in Women’s Sexual Health, in 2013 he received the Lifetime Achievement Award by the Sexual Medicine Society of North America, and in 2014 he received the ISSM Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Society for Sexual Medicine. He is happily married to his college sweetheart Sue, and together they have three children and five grandchildren.
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Equip for Health is a health and wellness company that works with anyone who wants to achieve great health through simple, sustainable daily changes. They are passionate about improving health from the inside out and having a health journey that is both result-driven and enjoyable at the same time. Check them out today at equipforhealth.com, and make sure you use the code SAVVY at checkout to save 10% on their online course.
We've received feedback that you all especially appreciate the episodes about sex. Men and women have written to us to share how this podcast feels like a safe place to learn more about helpful treatment options that are available for this private part of their lives. [00:01:18]
When I first practiced marriage and family therapy, my husband and I were living in San Diego, and I was told about Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who practiced in San Diego and was one of the most sought-after sexual medicine doctors in the world.
As a therapist, we often collaborate with medical professionals to offer clients the best care possible, so I frequently referred clients to Dr. Goldstein. Now, I'm excited for you to hear this interview with him, as we discuss a few topics we've never discussed before on the Savvy Sauce, including erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, and other fascinating relationships between other parts of our bodies and our genitals. God's intricate design of our bodies continues to amaze me, and this is an exciting field to learn more about.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Goldstein.
Irwin Goldstein: Laura, thank you so much for doing this. It's a privilege and an honor, and I look forward to a great next hour. [00:02:18]
Laura Dugger: I've been looking forward to this for a long time. For listeners who are unaware, your work is very unique. So will you just start us off by sharing how you originally got into this field?
Irwin Goldstein: I had no idea I was going to end up doing sexual medicine. It was an evolution of a series of forces. I'm from Montreal, Quebec, Canada, and I was a classic Canadian playing hockey and excelling in hockey. I ended up being recruited to Brown University in Providence to play four years of college hockey, which was an absolute blast. I enjoyed every minute of it.
While I was at Brown, I snuck in a biomedical electrical engineering degree. That was the era of Vietnam, and I decided that there were really no jobs for engineers. That was a sad realization. A bad time. My brother was an M.D., he suggested that I do my engineering through sort of an M.D. relationship. [00:03:18] So I met with the engineers at Brown, and they said that it would be a wise idea to do biomedical engineering via an M.D. degree.
So I ended up going back to Montreal, McGill University, to do medical school, and I fell in love with medicine. You know, medicine is... each organ in the body is a machine. It's like an amazing engineering machine. I ended up going into urology as a subspecialty area. We helped people. It was a lot of fun. We had a lot of procedures, a lot of diagnostic procedures.
Through serendipity, the doctor who was my mentor trained in 1973. What happened in 1973 in our field is that a penile implant was developed, and he was one of the original penile implanters. When he started doing penile implants... my first penile implant was 1976. That takes me way back. But urologists entered the world of sexual medicine through the ability to help men with erectile dysfunction through surgery. [00:04:17]
At the time, in the 70s, it was pretty much exclusively sex therapy, and only a small percentage of people thought they had a biologic basis. When I was entering urology in 1977, we could totally change a man's life who had struggled through, you know, sex therapy approaches, psychiatry approaches, mental health approaches.
And the reality was we didn't know how penile erection occurred physiologically. There was no physiologic understanding of that. So in 1980, when I graduated urology, I applied to the NIH, and I was awarded a three-year clinical research investigator award, and we studied the erectile physiology. I was funded, at the end of the day, for 23 consecutive years to study erectile physiology.
One of the outcomes of our research was actually to describe what was the actual chemical involved when you were sexually aroused that actually activated the erectile tissue. That ended up being nitric oxide. [00:05:17] So in 1991, our paper was the very first paper describing nitric oxide.
That, of course, led to Viagra, and that led me to paths that were remarkable. I mean, how many billions of people have used Viagra? I was the first author on the Viagra paper in the New England Journal of Medicine. We got tons of phone calls. My staff hated me throughout that process.
But what was fascinating by all the people calling us, asking us about Viagra, more than 90% were women. That was another major event in my life, realizing that there was no parallel path in gynecology to the parallel path in urology for sexual medicine.
In 1998, we started our first fellowship for women sexual health. Basically, from 1998 to the present, we just opened up a sexual medicine clinic for men and women. It's really been an exciting opportunity to have here in San Diego now, a biopsychosocial facility, you know, 6,000 square feet. [00:06:20]
We have two pelvic floor physical therapists. We have a sex therapist. I have two NPs, nurse practitioners. We have about six or seven medical assistants. We do about seven or eight research projects and clinical research for studying how things happen and what treatments are available. We do them in a sham-controlled or placebo-controlled prospective trial. Really very cool all the amazing things that are going on. It's been the most joyful ride that I could possibly imagine. So I didn't plan on going to this field, but through serendipity, it took me here.
Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating. Now I would just love for you to tell us your mission at San Diego Sexual Medicine Clinic and what sets you apart and makes you one of the most sought-after doctors in the world.
Irwin Goldstein: Wow. That's quite an accolade. Thank you for saying that. I don't know if it's true. But our vision is that we're an international facility that is dedicated to the study of the diagnosis and treatment of men and women or humans with sexual health issues. [00:07:28] We're completely dedicated to that endpoint.
We spend hours with individual patients. We see the different biopsychosocial aspects, and we sort of merge discussions from psychology to biology to pelvic floor physical therapy and sort of better manage patients with these issues. It's so amazing and shocking how few facilities are really dedicated to that, where there's so many people who have these problems. But we've managed to be at least in San Diego now for 13 years.
Laura Dugger: Previously on the Savvy Sauce, we've given so much airtime to women and sexual issues, and listeners can go back through our previous episodes and see all of these are still available to download. But now, Dr. Goldstein, I think it would be helpful to first focus more on men, and specifically, let's start with erectile dysfunction. If you don't mind sharing, what is it, who is affected, and what are the treatment options available? [00:08:33]
Irwin Goldstein: I guess fundamentally, from a sexual perspective, the ability to achieve and maintain an erection that is sufficiently rigid to achieve vaginal penetration. His inability to do that creates shame and embarrassment and humiliation and all kinds of negative aspects.
The physiology of this has only recently been described. It's a pretty fascinating system where there are two erection chambers in the penis. There's an artery that delivers sufficient pressure that would allow the penis to become rigid, at least in an axial direction, in the up-and-down direction, so that it can penetrate through the vagina.
How much force must the penis bear without buckling, i.e. its axial rigidity, to actually penetrate the average vagina in the United States? It's one kilogram, 2.2 pounds. That's the average vagina. That's not every individual vagina. [00:09:34]
My whole point is, coming from an engineering background, it became very obvious to me that you could make something as emotionally complex and complicated, yet describe it biologically as a... I don't want to say simplistic, but more hydraulic-based explanation.
I just had a 21-year-old person who flew to San Diego from Brooklyn to get evaluated because, at age 15, he had acne, took a medication called Accutane, and he believes the Accutane injured his ability to have an erection. He didn't understand why he had these problems. His parents were there. It was a big deal. We unraveled it with his three-hour visit. He ended up having scarring in his erection chamber that we identified on what was called a grayscale ultrasound.
I guess my whole point of erectile dysfunction, there are psychological reasons, there's neurologic reasons, there's vascular reasons, there's hormonal reasons. [00:10:39] It's just really a detective's game to basically understand the diagnosis.
For this 20-year-old who just was in the office, the explanation was, you can't study what's wrong with an erect penis, i.e. erectile dysfunction when you study it in the flaccid state. That point is so obvious, yet it's so apparent that most doctors can't make a man in an office have an erection to actually study it and find out what's wrong with it.
Once you realize that, that's what you have to do, you have to generate a facility that has the ability to achieve penile erection in anyone who walks in the door, so that you can then study it in the erect state and figure out what's wrong with it.
Depending on the diagnosis, management is the outcome. If it's a hormonal problem, we of course will deal with hormones. If it's a neurologic problem, we have a collaborative effort with a spine surgeon. One of the amazing things we're doing here, our work with spine surgery is simply unbelievable. [00:11:40] We can deal with neurologic issues and then the vascular issues, depending on what we find on the ultrasound studies.
In summary, erectile dysfunction is the inability to sustain this one kilogram of force where the penis now buckles with the application of a force on the glans penis. Our job is to have the penis be able to bear a kilogram or more weight using as many strategies as we can, both physically and psychologically.
Laura Dugger: With that, it sounds like it's not targeting just one age group or one demographic of males. Is that right?
Irwin Goldstein: Yeah. We just actually placed a penile implant in a 16-year-old. That's a little young, but he was in a major car accident, had a bad pelvic fracture, and was unable to have an erection. He was really miserable. We spent a lot of time with him, a lot of psychological help. The penile fracture really injured the nerves and the blood vessels to his penis and both he and his parents decided that was the correct thing to do. He's absolutely now in college, doing well, being happy, being not embarrassed, and having a normal life. [00:12:54]
We see from teens all the way up to 90-year-old men. I haven't dealt with a 100-year-old person yet, but I would definitely work with anyone at any age.
Laura Dugger: For someone listening who's curious about this, whether they struggle with this or maybe their spouse does, what are some warning signs that would alert them they may be struggling with erectile dysfunction?
Irwin Goldstein: The penis has to be hard enough to enter the vagina and stay hard to maintain thrusting. A penis that sort of loses erectile rigidity in the process of thrusting or isn't rigid enough to enter the vagina in the first place or any orifice in the first place is very frustrating to the person.
There is usually an explanation for it, and it requires some person with detective skills to unravel the various reasons. There are biological, psychological, and musculoskeletal. A facility that we happen to have assembled, which has the ability to look at all the different angles and contributions to the dysfunction is I think the ideal way to understand what's wrong. [00:14:04]
Once you understand what's wrong, we're really good at fixing it, because it takes out the mystery. If it's a hormonal thing, we'll work until we resolve the hormonal thing. Neurologic, we'll fix the neurologic. If it's vascular, we'll really work in depth with vascular. We have some really new, fabulous, what we call disease modification strategies, as well as some very good symptomatic treatment strategies where we're able to really help the penis get and maintain its rigidity so that function can occur.
Laura Dugger: I'm so grateful for people like you who are able to do this if someone maybe has experienced trauma, or you talked about that male who had been in a car accident.
Irwin Goldstein: Let me tell you another quick story. This was an 18-year-old who presented with erectile dysfunction. At age 14, he was diagnosed with lymphoma. He had one year of multiple different chemotherapy agents. The irony of all this is one of the chemotherapy agents causes scarring of the muscle of the heart so that he always had to see a cardiologist through the last four or five years to make sure the agents that cured his lymphoma, because he's now cured of it, didn't cause damage to the heart muscle. [00:15:16]
Of course, the muscle of the heart and the muscle of the penis are really parallel and analogous tissues. Of course, no one thought that the chemotherapy could injure the penis muscles, but of course they did. All of his erectile dysfunction [inaudible 00:15:32] going to chemotherapy, he was said to, "Oh, this is psychological. You're worried about the cancer, blah, blah, blah."
Then he finally ended up on our doorstep. We did the appropriate grayscale ultrasound studies during full erection. You can see the scarring of the penis. The erectile tissue homogeneity was not there. All I'm saying to you is it's not really a mystery. It's a hydraulic failure, and you just have to unravel the basis for the hydraulic failure, and then we can get on to treatment.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible how your background with first engineering and then all of the other medical school all come together. Let's talk about another prevalent issue then in males. Can you just teach us more about premature ejaculation? [00:16:16]
Irwin Goldstein: Well, that's one of our coolest things that we're doing right now is we're actually curing premature ejaculation. I can't tell you how exciting that is. There's another serendipitous story. We love serendipity.
We have this machine called penile shockwave, and we didn't really discuss it during erectile dysfunction, but we purchased the machine for men with erectile dysfunction. This is a device that generates sound waves that travel faster than the speed of sound. Since ours is electrohydraulic, it comes out over 3,000 miles an hour out of the probe into whatever tissue you're aiming it at.
So for men with erectile dysfunction, we generate this energy with the idea of activating stem cells, endogenous stem cells within the penis, so that they can replicate and then make more downstream cells, which is a healthy muscle, to make the penis more functional. So that's the idea.
In certain patients, as we apply the shockwave energy to the various parts of the penis, the front part, the side parts, what we call the dorsal and ventral parts, there's an area called the frenulum, which is the sensitive part of a man's penis. [00:17:23] It's on the front part of the penis called the ventral surface.
In usual, we can use relatively high energies to deliver the appropriate shockwave energy into the penis. In some men, when you apply the shockwave energy to their front part of the penis, they scream with pain. And it's like, wow, what am I doing? And we have to lower the energy dramatically. And then it dawned on me, every one of those people who couldn't tolerate the energy at the front part of the penis had what? Laura, what's the answer?
Laura Dugger: Premature ejaculation.
Irwin Goldstein: And I said, Oh my... this is another form of a penile dysesthesia. Let me explain a dysesthesia. So, aesthesia is feeling. Anesthesia is the profession that takes away feeling so you can operate. Dysesthesia is dysfunctional feeling. We finally had a tool, which we have never had before, and it ended up being the shockwave, that actually was able to identify a man who had a penile dysesthesia, a region of his penis that was so severely hypersensitive that any touch resulted in him having an ejaculation. [00:18:30]
So, we've now been able to map out the region of the dysesthesia. We can take a Q-tip and point out that on the side of the penis, a Q-tip causes like, say, a sensation of a 1 out of 10. But when you touch the frenulum and the region around the frenulum, that's like a 12 out of 10. And if you go like 3 millimeters off the frenulum, you're back to the 1 out of 10. This is really oval region of amazing supersensitivity.
So, we've now developed an in-house surgical excision of the hypersensitive tissue with now resolution of people's ability to control ejaculation. It is really fascinating, I have to say. We have to do more of them. We haven't really published this stuff yet, but we've done a whole number of them, and we've really changed people's lives. So, it's very cool.
But that's probably a subgroup of PE. I'm sure not everybody has that. But it's been really fun to unravel at least this subgroup of men.
Laura Dugger: I can't imagine how exciting that would be once you make a discovery like that and you can help so many people. [00:19:33]
Irwin Goldstein: Well, you know, it's the link between... we do men and women. So, most doctors or urologists do men, and most gynecologists only do women. So, it's not that many who do both. But if you have the ability to do both... we treat genital dysesthesia all the time in women.
One of the genital dysesthesias that we treat are women who have unwanted, unremitting arousals all the time, persistent genital arousal. We see women with persistent unwanted itch, and they can't wear leggings, they can't wear anything tight on their body because it just itches everywhere. And that's another neurologic thing.
So, the fact that we're familiar with genital dysesthesia through the woman's world allowed us to now identify a new genital dysesthesia in men. But nobody's really thought of it that way because, of course, most healthcare providers in this field sort of separate into the two genders, but don't do both.
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Laura Dugger: Are there any other common issues that you see people struggling with on a daily basis that you could easily treat if they would be willing to make an appointment with you?
Irwin Goldstein: I saw a whole bunch of people today, but since they're fresh in my mind, there was a, what, 27-year-old woman. She's actually a physician assistant who is on birth control pills for contraception. It's so sad. There's like 30-plus million women on this.
The nature of birth control pills is that they raise a protein that's made by the liver called sex hormone-binding globulin. But it's actually a protein or globulin that binds the sex hormones and thereby renders them unavailable to the tissues. They're stuck inside this globulin. [00:22:47]
One of the consequences of birth control pills is that everyone, all 30 million women, have a low testosterone because one of the things that the sex hormone binding globulin is very efficient at binding is the sex hormone called testosterone. So 30 million women are being, I'll use the word iatrogenic, meaning that doctors are doing this, causing a low hormonal state in women while they're getting what they believe to be is a safe and efficient contraceptive method.
Well, the low testosterone has consequences in people. They have low interest. They get depressed. They get sad. They have muscle strength weakness. They have soft bones. But in particular, the opening to the vagina is very testosterone dependent. That area is called the vestibule. It's a region very poorly examined by most providers. You have to stretch it laterally because it's facing in the anterior-posterior position and the front-to-back position.
If you examine women with pain, and there are, God knows, millions and millions of women with pain who have entrance pain during sexuality, it's being caused by their contraception. How crazy sad that is. [00:23:58]
So you ask something simple to do. If you're a woman with sadness, low libido, and entrance pain, and you happen to be on the birth control pill, let me tell you a very simple strategy would be to change contraceptive systems to an actually more efficient system called the LARC, long-acting reversible contraception. An example would be an IUD or an example would be the Nexplanon or Implanon, the glass rods that go on the arm. Those do not affect SHPG. They do not affect testosterone. They do not cause the sadness. They do not cause the pain. And then we would provide a little bit of testosterone cream to get testosterone back into the tissues and resolve the pain.
So that's easy-peasy. It's just that it's missed by so many people. So many women are on the pill, they just assume, since all their women friends have pain, they say, Oh, it's just natural to have pain when you have intercourse. I don't know anyone who doesn't have that. That's sort of sad.
Laura Dugger: That's very sad because pain would always be a signal that your body is trying to let you know about something. [00:25:01]
Irwin Goldstein: Yeah. But some people say, well, it's sex, and it's stretching my vagina, and it's supposed to be associated with pain because all my girlfriends have pain. It's not true, though.
Laura Dugger: I love that you shed light on this topic. But let's transition to a topic that many other listeners are interested in, which is hormones. Can you just give us a hormones 101?
Irwin Goldstein: We can talk first men, then women. Critical hormones in men, of course, are testosterone. Testosterone is a product made by the gonad called the testicle. It's under regulatory function by messages from what's called the hypothalamus and pituitary. They release what are called gonadotropins, which are proteins that stimulate the testicle.
So there's two kinds of low testosterone, one where the testicle itself has failed. That's called primary testicular dysfunction — sort of like a menopause situation. Just today we had a guy who, at age 15, 16, 17, 18, did intense weightlifting. [00:26:04] I don't know if you know about weightlifting, but the trainers sort of sell you anabolic steroids. His testicles shriveled because they were no longer needed to make testosterone. He was taking so much outside source testosterone so he could be the weightlifter.
But now that he's finished weightlifting, he has essentially no testosterone in his body. He's a young guy, and his testicles are really the sizes of raisins. Testicles are normally egg-sized. So that's primary hypogonadism. We call that hypergonadotropic hypogonadism because the gonadotropins are elevated trying to stimulate the testicle. So that's one type.
The more common type is where the hypothalamus and the pituitary won't release the gonadotropins to stimulate the testicles. So that's called hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, and that's called secondary hypogonadism. So we have good treatments for that. We have drugs that actually increase the amount of gonadotropins to help stimulate the testicles. [00:27:02]
So testosterone is widely FDA-approved as a treatment for men as opposed to women. We have all kinds of strategies, both endogenous and exogenous, to treat men with low testosterone.
Another important hormone is thyroid. It's sort of more common to have women with low thyroid, but men do have low thyroid. We pick that up more often than we should. There's another one. I have a healthcare provider who's a colleague of mine who had really low interest in sex, and we got a bunch of hormones in his prolactin, which is actually a hormone released by the pituitary gland to make breasts make milk, prolactin.
His prolactin was about 20 times higher than it should be, so we got an MRI of his pituitary gland and a little tiny tumor called a prolactinoma there, and we treated his prolactinoma with medication. His libido came back, and he was very happy. He's a good friend of mine. Sort of weird that it was a friend that had that tumor. [00:28:01]
But hormones in men on a 101 level mean that every person who walks into your office with a sexual dysfunction should have at least 9 or 10 hormones measured, including the thyroid and the prolactin, and, of course, testosterone.
Now for women, the big issue is, of course, menopause. Menopause happens at age 51 on average. There's a lot of controversy that hormones are going to kill you and cause cancer and cause heart attacks and strokes. Most of that is just false, incorrect information.
A correct situation for a woman would be careful monitoring of hormones with blood levels that they're in an appropriate level and what we call vulvoscopy monitoring, so we can actually monitor the tissues. During vulvoscopy, a woman, I call it evening the score, a woman can actually, who normally can't see inside the vagina to see the tissues, they actually watch their genitals on a monitor while we're actually doing the examination. So they get to see all the inside tissue and all the damage that low hormones do.
And what's cool is that as we give back the hormones in the monitored way, so we can follow them and keep them at an ideal value. [00:29:09] We can watch the tissues become not atrophic, not painful, not erythematous, not with pallor, not with any of the usual findings that you see in women with menopause. So hormones are a fabulous and very safe way to maintain sexual function in human beings who have sexual dysfunction.
For women, we do three sex steroid hormones. We do testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. Of course, we also follow thyroid and prolactin, but for men, it's primarily testosterone. For women, it's three, testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone.
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. So, for women, it's menopause that will usually be the onset of the hormones really affecting their sexuality. Are there any other likely contributors or seasons of life for men or women that would throw things out of whack?
Irwin Goldstein: So, I've discussed with you the issue of women and birth control pills, because that certainly throws their hormones out of whack. [00:30:10] Just to refresh the memory, the sex hormone binding globulin, it gets too high, and it binds all the testosterone, so their actual, what's called free testosterone, is quite low. So that's medication that throws hormones out of whack.
But men have their own versions of bad hormones. A lot of men find that their hair is thinning. They don't like that, and they want to have a full head of hair. So there's a drug called Propecia, or finasteride, that is a strategy to increase hair. Well, it's a strategy that stops the dihydrotestosterone, which is the hormone that is not happy to hair. High dihydrotestosterone injures the roots.
So the strategy by taking finasteride, or Propecia, is to lower dihydrotestosterone. But just to remind you and your listeners, that dihydrotestosterone is actually a critical hormone for the health of the penis tissue. So, you can't get it both ways. [00:31:07]
So if you want to intervene, you put your hair at benefit and your penis at risk. And we see countless men who are taking hair loss drugs who have sexual problems as a result of their ingestion of that treatment.
Laura Dugger: This is so many different avenues that we wouldn't link together, and you found these correlations.
Sorry to interrupt, but we just wanted to remind you to give us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. This helps more people discover The Savvy Sauce and ultimately hear the good news of Jesus. Thanks for partnering with us. We truly have the kindest and most helpful listeners.
I'm just in awe of all of this. Is there anything else that comes to mind that we wouldn't be aware of? Like nursing moms, we've always heard that hormones change at that point or during pregnancy, but those are more expected.
Irwin Goldstein: Yes. So during breastfeeding, so postpartum... We had another woman who walked in today who had an episiotomy. She had a sort of traumatic birth, and the episiotomy incision would not heal. [00:32:12] She's three and a half months out and the wound still has not healed. One of the doctors tried to cauterize it with silver nitrate and it still didn't work. It was very painful to the woman. The doctor wanted to operate on her, so she came to me for a second opinion. We're gonna figure out non-surgical strategies to help her non-healing episiotomy.
But my point is, during breastfeeding where she is in, the hormones are extremely low. Estradiol is very low, testosterone is very low. The tissues aren't very healthy. It's almost the equivalent of menopause, but it's not really menopause. But the ovary is not roaring out with lots of hormones as it otherwise should.
The dilemma, of course, at least that she has to face is I'd love to give her some hormones, but she doesn't want to put the child at risk by taking hormones. So we have to figure out a strategy to get the tissue happy but not hurt the baby.
Laura Dugger: Yes, very complex. One more topic that I want to briefly discuss, because your practice is ahead of its time, will you tell us a little bit more about your new regenerative therapy and your state-of-the-art cutting-edge therapy? [00:33:22]
Irwin Goldstein: Thank you for asking. 10 years ago in Europe, actually from Israel, the first-ever shockwave device was applied to men with erectile dysfunction with the idea that the energy would give mitochondria... I don't know if you know what mitochondria are. They're the parts of a cell inside the cytoplasm that provide energy. So we can actually increase the ATP, which is the energy source of a mitochondria in the stem cells that exist in the penis. They can replicate with ease and make more opportunity to make more downstream cells, which are the penis, healthy, smooth muscle cells.
So that was the idea. It was proposed 10 years ago. And it's widely, widely used in Europe, all over Europe, all over South America. The FDA has more or less blocked the introduction of shockwave devices for the same indication in the United States until the usual trials are done, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multi-institutional trials, like Viagra had to go through. [00:34:22]
Those are $500 million trials. So pharma like Pfizer can do that, but device companies don't have that sort of background. So it's been a situation where you could get this treatment in Europe, but you can't get it in the U.S., it was very frustrating.
We did a clinical trial with shockwave, like five or six years ago, trying to get the FDA to allow us to eventually get the shockwave device in. The company realized it would be too expensive, so they dropped out. I was at a meeting, In This Wish meeting, International Society of Study of Women's Sexual Health, at a women's sexual meeting, and displaying was one of these shockwave companies. They finally got clearance from the FDA to get the device into the U.S. for three things: amelioration of pain, increasing blood flow, and connective tissue activation.
So with that clearance, and the designation by the FDA that this device was non-significant risk, NSR, to humans, we were able to get the device into our office. [00:35:24] Now, we're doing the sham-controlled, prospective placebo-controlled trial for men with ED with the shockwave, but we're now using the shockwave for many, many other uses.
We talked about premature ejaculation, but men who have these curved penises, Peyronie's disease. We're using shockwave therapy for that. We're doing women who have pain. We're doing vestibular shockwave therapy for their vestibules. This woman who had an unhealing wound from the postpartum, we're doing shockwave therapy on her wound. It's amazing for diabetic ulcers and other wounds to increase blood flow to the region, so we're helping her heal without surgery that wound I talked about. So that's been an amazing opportunity for us to help people.
The last part of shockwave therapy that I can share with you that's really cool is the 10 years of shockwave therapy for rectal dysfunction has always been on men in the flaccid state. So the men just show up in the office and they come in and they shockwave the penis as it is as they enter, which is their flaccid state. [00:36:25]
When I started realizing, that was ridiculous. There's a thing called acoustic impedance, which means that tissue that's very thin, like a flaccid penis being pushed on by a probe. The diameter is only like a centimeter or less. Whereas a full erection, you can get diameters of more than six centimeters. So the acoustic impedance would be very high in somebody who has a wider tissue presented to the shockwave.
So we have now done for the last three or four months only shockwave therapy during men with penile erection, which has never been done before, but it makes the most sense. And it's very obvious that that's gonna be how all people do that in the future.
Laura Dugger: Is there anything else that we haven't covered yet that you would like to mention?
Irwin Goldstein: Anyone who has a sexual problem, we will unravel it as best as we can and work with them. That's just who we are.
Laura Dugger: If listeners are intrigued after this conversation and they want to explore more options for treatment, where would you first direct them? [00:37:26]
Irwin Goldstein: We have a website, San Diego Sexual Medicine. It's an inventive and exciting website with lots of information about men and women and their sexual issues.
Laura Dugger: Our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Dr. Goldstein, what is your savvy sauce?
Irwin Goldstein: I'm a big proponent... my father taught me this, and I'm sure his father taught him this. So this has gone through the generations. I tried to teach my own kids and I think we were successful. We're big proponents of work hard, play hard. When I go to the office, I'm all working hard. But when I leave, I love playing hard.
One of the savvy sauce things that I love doing with my wife is date night. So playing hard for us is date night. I encourage people to set a time in your life to just be together, do exciting and fun things and be intimate with each other and find that we can not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. [00:38:31]
Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. Love hearing that. Dr. Goldstein, thank you for your skilled work that impacts so many people in one of the most private areas of their life. Your work clearly matters and I'm so very grateful that you educated us today. Thank you for being my guest.
Irwin Goldstein: Laura, thank you so much for doing this. You're awesome. Your San Diego days were awesome. Good luck in your new place and thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:39:34] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:40:36] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:41:38]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.