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Monday Sep 14, 2020
Monday Sep 14, 2020
111. Building Love Together in Blended Families with Ron Deal
**Transcription Below**
1 Corinthians 13:8a (NIV) "Love never fails."
Ron Deal is President of Smart Stepfamilies™ and Director of FamilyLife Blended® for FamilyLife®. He is a family ministry consultant and conducts marriage and family seminars around the country; he specializes in marriage education and stepfamily enrichment.
Ron Deal’s Website for Blended Families
Connect with Ron Deal on Social Media @familylifeblended
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Building Love Together in Blended Families by Dr. Gary Chapman and Ron L Deal
The Smart Stepfamily Marriage by Ron Deal, David H. Olson, and Evelyn Thompson (Foreword)
The Smart Stepfamily Guide to Financial Planning by Ron Deal, Greg S. Pettys, and David. O. Edwards
The Smart Stepmom by Ron Deal and Laura Petherbridge (Contributor)
Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:
Episode 85: 5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Fae & Monroe makes hand-stamped jewelry and accessories, and it's located right here in central Illinois. They provide delicate, personal, everyday necklaces, as well as keychains and accessories. Check them out at FayAndMonroe.com.
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Although this is an episode designed to specifically address unique challenges that arise for anyone marrying again after divorce or death of a spouse, I still believe we can all learn from this wisdom of strengthening relationships.
Ron Deal is our guest, and he is a relationship expert. He's a marriage and family therapist, best-selling author, podcaster, and popular conference speaker. [00:01:22] He's also the president of Smart Stepfamilies.
Today we're going to cover concepts from a recent book of his, which he wrote with Dr. Gary Chapman, one of our previous guests from Episode 85. This book is titled Building Love Together in Blended Families, and I can't wait for all of us to listen in on his practical instruction for ways that we can strengthen our marital relationship and parenting.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ron.
Ron Deal: Well, thank you. It's an honor to be with you.
Laura Dugger: Will you just get us started by telling us a bit about yourself and how you originally developed a passion for this line of work?
Ron Deal: Yeah. I'm a Midwestern kid born and raised in Des Moines, Iowa. I met my now-wife in seventh grade. I can still see her standing at the end of the hallway at her locker. We eventually got to know each other and fell in love by the time we were ending our senior year and went off to college, got married, decided we wanted to go into ministry. [00:02:29]
My first job I was a youth minister working with kids. And boy, did I figure out fast, Laura, that I didn't know enough about the family or the family system to really be as helpful to them as I wanted to be.
So like you, I went back to graduate school and I got a degree in Marriage and Family Therapy. At that point, I really wanted to help kids, but I also wanted to help their families. I knew the family system is where children grew up. The climate had everything to do with their well-being.
So I went into family ministry doing some counseling, but spending a lot of my time on prevention, enrichment, doing marriage enrichment, parent training, working with single-parent families, and decided we needed to work with blended families because as a clinician, I knew I'd had quite a bit of experience working with stepfamilies. But in ministry, not many people were paying any attention to that.
So this is back in the early 1990s when I started doing what's now stepfamily ministry, my full-time job. [00:03:29] And little did I know hardly anybody was trying to do something to help blended families within a Christian community or Christian context. So I found myself kind of trying to figure it out and talking to anybody I could find that was interested in the subject. Long story short, it eventually became my life.
We've now written eight books and have a ninth on the way and half a dozen resources. I work with a large international ministry called FamilyLife. We're in over 100 countries around the world, but we have a huge footprint here in the United States. Thousands of people come to our marriage conference every year.
And now we started what we call FamilyLife Blended, which is my Smart Stepfamily material plus the FamilyLife material. So we do events and online training and resources, video curriculum, books, small group studies, all kinds of things for stepfamilies around the world at this point. [00:04:30]
Laura Dugger: Well, it's really incredible to get to witness your work, Ron. This is something I haven't told you yet, that I've actually followed your work for years. My mom is the one I credit with introducing me to podcasts. But even before that, it was radio programs. And so this may have been in the 90s or early 2000s. It was a while back that I remember hearing you first speak and really be the leader of a Christian view of grace with stepfamilies. So thank you for your work.
Ron Deal: Well, I appreciate that very much.
Laura Dugger: And now just from a broader context, what do you see as one of the most overlooked and underestimated needs of any relationship?
Ron Deal: For a long time, the Christian community and marriage educators, even people from a non-faith perspective, inadvertently gave the message that it's my job to make my wife happy. Now, I firmly believe that it's my job to die to myself, to love my wife well, and care for her in whatever ways that I can. [00:05:37]
But sometimes the way we would teach it, we kind of suggested to people that if your wife's not happy, then it's your fault. Or if your husband's not happy, then it's your fault as the wife. All of a sudden, you know, it's kind of like we've relieved people of their own responsibility for their own personhood and well-being, their identity, their walk with God as a factor in who they are in their marriage and their family and their parenting.
And I think that's making a comeback, and it should make a comeback, that there's a balance to be found here. That each of us is accountable and responsible for who we are, and we bring our best selves to our marriage.
And striving to be my best self is a part of growing up. It's a part of growing up in Christ, growing up as a person, becoming mature. That's something we're called to do and invited to do, I think, in our walk with God. So bridging that into the marriage and family space is something that I think has been overlooked for some time. [00:06:41]
Laura Dugger: That's such an important point about that personal responsibility piece, and just resisting more of that victim mentality, which really doesn't serve anyone. But now as we consider blended families specifically, how does your relationship with God and your learning from the Bible, how does all of that influence your beliefs about coming alongside stepfamilies?
Ron Deal: There's an interesting thing that happens. In our effort to follow God well and honor Him, we have, I think rightfully so within the Christian community, placed a big emphasis on remaining faithful in our marriages. We talk about covenant relationships and responsibilities and decisions that we make to be committed to a spouse, and we need to honor that. And divorce is not a part of keeping promises, right? So we want to discourage the breaking of promises and encourage the keeping of promises, and rightfully so. [00:07:43]
I think, unfortunately, in our effort to do that, we've kind of talked down to people who did experience divorce. We use words like broken family as if to imply that somehow people living in an intact family are not broken. Well, that's not true. We're all broken. We're all in need of redemption.
And so we inadvertently marginalize people who have been through hardship and difficulty, whether they made a choice that led to the divorce or they didn't. Whatever the story is, God still loves and forgives and redeems and blesses people who have had a breakup of a marriage.
People in blended families then are remarried, and there's this other theological concept about remarriage. In our effort to try to handle the Scriptures well, sometimes I think we have, again, inadvertently taught a meta-message that suggested that somehow divorce is bad, remarriage is also bad. If you're divorced and remarried, you don't belong at church. [00:08:45] And that is so not right. That is so not the intent or the heart behind the Scriptures.
And so we have to deal with that now. We have to talk about blended family living in theological ways and also in practical ways to invite church leaders to say, yeah, you know what? The church is all about redemption. It's a hospital. It's not a place for healthy people. It's a place where people go when they need help. That's who we are. That's what we do. We do that day in and day out. Why is this any different? It's really not.
I guess I would say early on when I started doing this, I felt like I had to fight those theological battles and not so much anymore. Thankfully, that's gotten a lot easier. The conversation is more about practically how do we help and encourage people in blended families.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Will you take us back? Do you think you can pinpoint any turning points or was there any specific Scripture that helped people understand theologically what is now what you're saying a little bit more understood? [00:09:46]
Ron Deal: Yeah, I think it's just simply stepping back from the Scriptures and saying, yes, we want to encourage people to honor their promises and their commitments. But then let's also notice that the whole of Scripture is a narrative about God pursuing us in our imperfections and providing redemption and grace ultimately through Jesus Christ.
If you look at that and you go, Okay, let's just look at the families of the Bible. How messed up were they? Abraham and his family. Abraham and Sarah promised a child. The whole world is going to be blessed through their child. Only she's not getting pregnant. So she has this brilliant idea.
Now, Laura, I just got to ask you, how many times have you suggested to women, look, if you can't get pregnant, just give your husband a maidservant. Let her become wife number two. It'll all work out fine. That's not advice that we get. But that's how the family of promise started. Jesus is a descendant of that.
Then it gets worse, right? [00:10:47] The story of Joseph and his brother selling him into slavery is not about simple sibling jealousy. It's a narrative of a favored child who was born by the favored wife to a man who had three other wives and a whole lot of children, half-brothers, half-sisters, stepchildren to stepmothers, and there's only one favored child in the bunch.
It's a story of stepfamily dysfunction and jealousy. This is not a new narrative. God has always worked with imperfect people to bring about his perfect causes and purposes. And that's what He does, is restore and redeem.
Our faithfulness doesn't fix every decision we've ever made in our past, but it ascribes righteousness to us in spite of that past. And by the way, Jesus had a stepdad. I'm pretty sure that's true. Best story of the whole thing is there's this woman that Jesus meets in John chapter four, a woman at the well. She has a very sordid past. She's been married five times. [00:11:46] She's now living with a guy because she's given up on marriage and love in general. We don't know if she's divorced five times. We don't know if she was widowed five times.
But the story narrative implies there was a lot of shame going on within her. That's why she's isolated and alone from the community of people and at the well all by herself. She's probably been divorced at least once, if not multiple times.
And what does Jesus do? Well, he loves her. He talks to her like a person as she is. He actually uses her story of thirst and trying to find love as a way of helping her open her heart to the truthfulness of God's grace and mercy for her. In the end of the story, she drinks living water, she sees and understands that she's embraced by God.
This woman who was at the beginning of the story embarrassed about her past is now at the end of the story using her story to invite other people to come and meet Jesus. That's my story too. That's your story. That's everybody who's listening story. [00:12:48]
It doesn't matter whether you've been divorced or remarried or whatever that narrative is. God loves, forgives, invites, encourages, blesses. Says, Come walk with Me. Just drink some water and let's go. I think that message makes a lot of sense to people. And there's just so much hope in it. That's the narrative we tell in the ministry that I run.
Laura Dugger: That is such a powerful picture of what Scripture presents theologically for this topic. And I know you said you also focus a lot on the practical side. So even currently with what you're hearing from these blended families, what are some of the most helpful practical implications you recommended?
Ron Deal: Let's just start at a high level. And let me just say driving a stepfamily, if I could say it that way, is different than driving a biological first family. Quick illustration. If you know how to drive a car, which a lot of people do, and I said, all right, then you know how to drive a motorcycle. [00:13:52] You'd say, Oh, well, I don't know. I mean, I kind of know how to ride a bike, but I'm not sure I know how to ride a motorcycle. Isn't that different? How do you handle corners? How do you handle speed? How do you change lanes? How do you make sure defensive driving other cars can see you?
Yeah, there's a whole lot of things that are different and unique about navigating a motorcycle than driving a car. But they're both vehicles. They both have engines. They both need maintenance. They both have certain laws and things that go along with the boundaries and how you use them well, etc., etc..
Same thing's true. Blended families are families. They have relationships. They have guidelines and healthy and unhealthy. They're a vehicle, just like a first family is a vehicle. But you do drive the blended family differently.
There are dynamics that are different. There are defensive postures that you need to have. There are qualities and attributes that are unique, and there are struggles that are unique. [00:14:51] So we help people understand those struggles.
It's a little bit like if you have a special needs child. There's some unique things around that. If you have a child who's educationally challenged, there's some unique ways you need to try to learn to help that child learn so that they can manage adulthood.
It's not unlike many things in life. But when people go into the blended life experience thinking they're driving a car, well, they corner way too fast. And, boy, they're not watching out for other traffic like they need to be. They can get sideswiped or rear-ended or tip over pretty quickly.
Imagine a car with eight people in it. You can imagine that pretty easily. Imagine a motorcycle with eight people on it. Oh, wow, we just got complicated. How do we balance? How do we work together? Right. That's what we do is we help people understand driving this vehicle and what it takes to stay on the road and get to where you want to go. [00:15:50]
Laura Dugger: Well, and let's just take that a step further then and talk about a few things that are specific to blended families. Could you just explain the attachment triangles that are apparent?
Ron Deal: Yeah. So this is a key concept, and it's a little hard to explain. But let me just give you a typical scenario. One of the things that's very true about driving this vehicle called the blended family is that parenting and marriage stuff is deeply intertwined. Now, that's also true in first families where a couple is raising their biological children. But in blended families, this can get tripped up all too easily, and it can have devastating impact.
So, for example, imagine a conversation where a stepmother, for example, comes to her husband and says, Hey, Johnny's not getting out of bed in the morning. It's making everybody late. Could you help me get him going? And the dad says, "Well, I don't know. That's not a big deal. I think he's doing fine. Let's not worry about it." And the stepmother is feeling, "Oh, I'm unheard. I'm powerless. And you just defended your son over me. [00:16:52] It feels like you've chosen him over me. That feels like I'm unimportant to you."
So what started as a parenting question quickly became some sort of a statement about the importance of marriage. The stepmom in this scenario is kind of an outsider to the parenting process between her husband and his son. Like when she comes on the scene in the beginning, she's very much outside that. Her husband and son have a history and routines and rituals and ways of doing things, and they understand each other.
And his parenting of the past as a single dad and even before he was a widow or his first divorce, all of that plays into what the child expects. But now the stepmother, an outsider to all of that, is coming in saying, "Hey, help me get him out of bed." So she is stuck as an outsider is the way we would say that.
She comes in as an outsider, and she tried to do something to be a part of the parenting team, only her husband said no. [00:17:51] And now she's really an outsider. So powerless and helpless and frustrated. She has to deal with the fallout of him not being ready to go in the morning, all of that.
So it's parenting and marriage all at the same time. I like to say in blended families, there's a dangerous intersection where you're riding this vehicle, this motorcycle, and at the intersection of Parenting Street and Marriage Avenue, there's a whole lot of collisions.
And you have to navigate it really carefully because ultimately it pulls on the couple's relationship. It ultimately makes them feel like they are not together, they are not one, that they are different and separate. And when that happens, it doesn't matter how motivated anybody else might be, the family falls apart. There is a reason the divorce rate is higher in blended families than it is in first families. And it's this intersection.
But here's another triangle that is a key one. And this one has sort of indirect connection with the children. [00:18:52] It can be about a former spouse. Imagine a former spouse, an ex-husband, who picks up the phone and calls his ex-wife, who is now married to a new guy. This former husband is just really difficult to get along with. He's not a great parent. He's unreliable and inconsistent. And he's just belligerent and bitter and angry over the divorce and whatever.
And so he can create all kinds of havoc in his former wife's new marriage, in their parenting, in the new stepdad who's going, Look, he may be a wonderful stepdad, a very high-character person. But if the biological dad is telling the kids, "I'm your dad, he's not, don't listen to him, listen to me," well, then stepdad is just going to have a really rough go. And it has nothing to do with him. It has very little to do with his wife or their marriage. It has everything to do with somebody who does not live in their home.
So here's the big reality. Blended families are tall and wide, I like to say. In this new book that I wrote with Gary Chapman, Building Love Together in Blended Families, we say they're tall and wide. [00:19:55] Tall because they're multigenerational, there's lots of generations that are being affected by the step relationships, and they're wide in the sense that there's often at least two homes, if not three or four homes. And it's just difficult. It is so very difficult to navigate all of those pieces.
In other words, here's another way of saying it. To this woman who marries a great guy, what they both have to accept is that her ex-husband is still a part of their marriage. He is still a part of their family. His parenting matters. Who he is as a person matters. His finances matter. His schedule matters. His morality matters. He is a part of your family.
That's a hard reality for a lot of people. They think, "Well, I divorced him. That's over with." If you share children, it's never over with. Learning how to navigate that terrain, deal with former spouses in light of what happens in your home is just one of those complex pieces that helps you learn how to ride and drive this motorcycle. [00:20:59]
Laura Dugger: Ron, if I'm hearing correctly, too, it does sound like one of the most common issues with a new blended family would be if they are also parents. You would say that's where a lot of the friction comes. Is that right?
Ron Deal: I would say the presence of children from any previous relationship is just a multiplier of complexity. So this leaves a co-parenting issue. You and your former spouse, how do you raising those children together? It's a parent, step-parent in your home, the new marriage matter.
And then there's children dealing with losses and sadness from the past and loyalty issues. We might call that a loyalty conflict or a love conflict. I love my dad, I love my stepdad, I have a problem. I don't know how to make space for both of those people at the same time in my heart.
That is a very common kid issue. It's something they have to work through. And only when they find peace with that can they openly give themselves into a loving relationship with their step-parent. [00:22:02] 99% of the time, they will side with a biological parent, even if that bio-parent is not a nice person. The step-parent gets the lesser end of that deal just because of their loyalty or love for their biological parent. So, again, lots of things dealing with children, adults, dynamics, parenting, and marriage.
Laura Dugger: I just appreciate your work because it is so relevant today. If we look at the numbers, just in American culture, I believe it's nearly half the couples who have a step-parent or step-child connected to their relationship.
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Laura Dugger: What are a few blended family principles for loving well?
Ron Deal: So in this book, Building Love Together in Blended Families, one of the things I do is summarize all the other work. And this is hard to do. But like I said, I've written multiple books, like The Smart Stepfamily, which is a best-selling book. And we just summarize some of those principles in this new one and just said, for example, blended families are not born with a sense of familiness.
By the way, I like making up words. I hope that's okay with you. Familiness is different than coupleness. But blended families are not born with a sense of familiness. [00:25:09] Your journey nurtures it.
So when you get married and form a blended family, you bring definition to one relationship, your couple relationship, coupleness. You bring definition because you announce to the world, we're married now. There's legal implications for that. There's practical implications for that. There's sexual implications for that. There's expectations in terms of fidelity in this relationship.
And the whole world says, yay, happy, glad for you guys. You're married, husband and wife. That is clear. What is unclear is how you're going to be a family. Because children are saying, Okay, now I've got a step-parent and three step-siblings. What do I do with them? Where do I put them in my heart? How do I make space for that? I have time and energy for this person. How about for that person? I love my mom. I sort of like my stepdad. I really love my dad. That's the familiness stuff kids are working on.
The other familiness thing that's really key is parenting and step-parenting. How are we going to be a team? You and I parent differently. [00:26:09] Maybe both adults are bringing kids into the equation. We parent differently.
Maybe the children are adults. And, Laura, this is very important because this is a big assumption a lot of people make. Empty nest parents who get married later in life just assume because their children are adults that they're not going to have any problem with it. That is not true at all. Kids 35 years of age have the same adjustments as kids 15 years of age or 5 years of age.
They have to now redefine their whole family, their identity within the family, their relationship with their parent who got married. They have to figure all this out too. And now there's grandkids involved in the picture. All of that to say, familiness is a journey that generally takes anywhere from five to seven years to figure out.
Coupledness came on the day you got married in the sense that everybody around you and within your relationship, you knew who you were, husband and wife. Everybody else, it takes them five to seven years to figure it out. That is a deep surprise to a lot of people and they get caught off guard by that. [00:27:10]
And here's the way that looks in real life. The kids loved this future step-parent. They got along fine. They had some activities. Everything seemed to be rolling forward. The wedding comes and now somebody's like, "Hey, yeah, no, I don't want you telling me to pick up my socks. No. It was kind of fine when you were dating my mom, but now you're in my bedroom telling me to pick up my socks. You are not my dad." That's real life. And that relationship and defining, bringing definition to that relationship takes time.
So we help people pause. We help people be patient. We help them understand what to do in the meantime. How do you get to that definition? And that's part of what this book really does.
I think the real positive thing that Building Love Together in Blended Families does that my other materials don't is that it really talks about utilizing the five love languages, for example, to help bonding in a family, to help you bring definition to your familiness. [00:28:10] I think there's some very practical things in this book that help with that.
Laura Dugger: I would echo that. I think in your book it does lay out just something that you can grab onto so quickly and just a great resource where they can turn to that and get some ideas and see how it applies.
As we transition to thinking about the blended family couple, I think it's always helpful to hear stories or practical tips. So in a blended family, how can a couple grow in their marriage?
Ron Deal: Well, you know, one of the things you got to do is work hard to protect your marriage because of that intersection of Parenting Street and Marriage Avenue and there's a lot of collisions. You work really hard to honor one another. So it's simple things, but they have profound impact.
For example, a biological parent who was a single parent, perhaps for a few years before getting married again, they are so used to making all the decisions quickly, decisively. [00:29:14] The kids know what you're going to say before you say it. For you to pause and make space for the step-parent is helpful to say to your kids, "Hey, look, hold on. I'll get back to you on that. I'm going to go talk to my spouse."
And they say, "Well, why dad? You never had to ask anybody before. Why do you have to ask her?" "Well, she's my wife now. And that matters. Turns out that that's a big deal. You know, she's going to be my partner for the rest of our life and so I want to include her in this."
Now, you've just made a huge statement to your children. Marriage matters. I'm committed. It's redefining who I am in relation to you and we all have to make these adjustments. And it elevates the status of the step-parent into the parenting system. And it gives her some power she didn't have any other way. And the kids get the message they have to respect the stepmom because dad respects her. That's massive, Laura. That's huge.
Consider the alternative of somebody who doesn't include the step-parent, doesn't find a way to bring them into the parenting and the kids don't respect. [00:30:21] I work with a guy who told me, "Yeah, I had a great stepdad came into my life when I was about five. I called him dad pretty quickly." And I was like, "Hey, that sounds wonderful."
And then he gave me whiplash and he said, "But I never respected him." And I said, "Wow, why not? I mean, you liked him. You got along. You even called him dad." He goes, "Yeah, but mom told us after she got married kids, if anything ever goes wrong between you and my husband, don't worry about it. I'll protect you. We'll just leave."
And it was like, Okay, so mom doesn't respect him and you don't have to respect him. The message came through loud and clear. And even as a five-year-old, he understood, I don't have to respect this guy. So it put huge limitations on their relationship. That sort of stuff really matters.
We tell the story in the book. Pretty complex story. So I'll go into all the details, but it's a very practical one about a single mom who, during the single mom years, her love language is quality time and her kids' love language was quality time. [00:31:21]
So guess what they did every night before bed? They laid in bed and they had quality time. They talked about the day. As she reported to me and shared this, she said, "But it was really us surviving life together. It was really us getting through the hard transition of going through the divorce and the kids' angst over that. We loved on each other. We cared for each other. It worked for them. It was wonderful. It was a foxhole experience, surviving life."
Fast forward. She meets a wonderful guy. He's got a couple of kids of his own. They get married and, you know, her husband's biggest complaint pretty quickly is, "Oh my gosh, she spends an hour and a half in the bedtime ritual with her kids every night." You know, sometimes it was 30 minutes, but often it was an hour to an hour and a half. He said, "I'm sitting out there. My kids are in bed. I'm waiting for some couple time with my wife, feeling unimportant, feeling like I'm left out of this whole mix. But then she comes out and she's so tired. She goes straight to bed. We don't get any time. I'm resenting the children."
Like, okay, so you hear the ritual that was working before the marriage is now working against the marriage now that they're a family. [00:32:24] So what do they do? Well, first of all, they had to talk and listen and hear one another. Mom was defensive of her kids at first, but she finally said, "You know what? I can understand my husband. He's just looking for some time with me. He's not against them." He had to be patient and say, "Look, this ritual is important."
I helped him see her kids really, really need that time with their mother because they've gone through another change. They've lost mom to you and they've lost mom to your kids in some way. Not emotionally, not entirely, but they've lost some of her time. They've lost some of her energy to those people. So they need a little reassurance. Reassurance is a good thing for children.
However, mom, you got to put some limitations on this from a time standpoint. You need to make a statement to your children about the importance of your marriage as well. You got to balance these two things, love your kids and love your husband. It's not either or. It is "both and". So let's work on this.
So they ultimately came together, made some decisions. Mom agreed she needed to start putting time limits on the nighttime ritual. [00:33:26] Guess what that meant? A little angst in the children. Did they push back? Yes. Did they say, mom, did they whine and complain? You bet. So she had to say, I love you, BUT this is what's going to happen. Bedtime ritual is over. I'm walking out the door. I'm going to spend time with my husband.
Those subtle, but very significant changes create familiness. And without that, they're going to be stuck night after night, after night, feeling like they're not together as a couple.
Laura Dugger: And it sounds like it takes such discernment. I love how you say "both and" I think that's so apparent in scripture for so many things and just how you're applying it here because both are important. And yet if someone needs help with that discernment right now, I guess we can't give a blanket statement, but would you say the order of priorities typically needs to start with a couple?
Ron Deal: Yeah. I would say... and let me be delicate with this because I think sometimes people hear the wrong thing. [00:34:29] So let me talk around it. Yes, ultimately the marriage is a huge priority relationship. When scripture talks about leave father and mother and cleave to your spouse, it's saying shift your allegiance to your new spouse. That does not mean you abandon father and mother, neglect father and mother. When they get old, make them take care of themselves. Stop honoring them. Nope. There's another command in the Bible about honoring father and mother.
So clearly allegiance to your wife does not mean stopping to love and respect parents. It just means your primary allegiance is to your spouse.
The same thing happens if you happen to have children when you get married. You shift primary allegiance to your spouse, but that does not mean you stop caring for kids or neglect kids or abandon kids or stop pouring your time and energy into them, especially during their childhood years. You're going to continue to do all of that and make sure everybody knows till death do you part on this marriage. [00:35:29] Like there has to be that sense of ultimate allegiance.
Practically though you're still making sacrifices on the adult level on behalf of children, but there have to be moments in time where, you know, and your partner knows and your kids know this marriage is not going away. It is a deciding relationship within the family system.
The mistake is when people hear, Oh, just love your new spouse and forget about your kids. Nobody's saying that. There's no balance in that. Maintaining the "both and" is how you keep the balance.
Laura Dugger: Our team would love to know, has The Savvy Sauce benefited you in any way? Our hope is that your life is enriched just a little bit more after listening and applying lessons from each episode. If you have enjoyed this podcast, would you put your support into action by pledging $2 or even $5 a month to become a patron?
You will receive some awesome perks and your contribution will help us offset the production costs for The Savvy Sauce so we can still make the majority of our content free to the public. [00:36:37] We hope you consider partnering with us today. Just visit our website, TheSavvySauce.com, and click on our Patreon tab. Thank you for your participation.
Will you now share how your five Ps apply to step-parents?
Ron Deal: Yeah. I think what we've talked about so far is a helpful precursor to this conversation. So five Ps of step parenting.
- Number one, partner, right? So partner with your spouse. That is step-parents, partner with the biological parent because as we've kind of already talked about, the biological parent is the one who sets you up to be successful. They're the ones who communicate to the children, look, this is my husband. He's your stepdad now.
The biological parent does not demand that children love step-parents. Nobody can demand that. Well, we can demand that you be courteous and decent and kind and respect them like you would any other adult authority in your life. [00:37:36] Like a coach on the soccer field, like your teacher in math class, like the youth pastor who takes you on the youth retreat. And you respect that person's authority. You respect a step-parent's authority on day one in our family. Partnering is huge.
- Number two is pursue. So step parents pursue a relationship with the children.
- But you need to do it at number three, a pace at which the children can receive it. So those work together, pursue but at a pace that they can receive.
Here's a quick analogy. If I were to ask you, Laura, let's assume COVID is over, pandemic is gone and you have some new neighbors, a couple doors down and you can actually go and meet them. All right? And if I said to you, go make friends, you know, get to know them a little bit, well, what you would not do, I don't think, is walk down and bang on their door and yell at the top of your lungs, "I'm your new BFF. Open up. I'm hungry. I want to get some food out of your refrigerator."
That's not going to help make friends, right? They don't know you. They don't trust you. [00:38:36] They don't understand what you're about and what your motivation is. And so they are not opening that door.
Well, a lot of step-parents pursue at a pace like that. "Hey, I'm your new dad. My way or the highway. You need to act," right? That's going to do nothing to build a relationship, right? They've just slammed the door and double bolt locked it.
What you would do if you're going to make friends with the new neighbors, you'd probably knock on the door and be very polite and wait. And if they came to the door and talk through the door, "Hello, who is it?" you'd say, "Well, this is Laura and I'm your neighbor and I just want to invite you to."
You would find some common ground to begin a dialogue in the hopes that they crack the door open. In which case now you got one eyeball. You can see one eye through the crack and you can talk to the eye and hopefully find some more common ground over which they begin to slowly open the door of their heart to you.
You get the analogy. You got to pursue at a pace that they will receive. Someday, maybe, you'll be invited into the living room and maybe they'll offer you a drink of water. [00:39:40] That's the culmination of this pursuit. Step-parents get too eager, too fast, and get too anxious about developing this relationship. They push and they inadvertently get themselves pushed away.
- That brings me to the fourth P, patience. Patience is so very critical because sometimes you sit on the doorstep and knock and they just talk through the door and that's all they're going to give you. I'm thinking of adult children. Dad got married at the age of 70 and he married this new woman. She's nice but she's not my mom and I don't need her in my life. I'm an adult. I got my own life, career, children, stuff I got to be involved in. I don't have time to develop a relationship with Dad's new wife. Now notice that language. Not my stepmom, not my mom, dad's new wife.
That's a distant connection at best for the adult children. They're just not highly motivated to build that connection and they don't need to be. So you have to be patient. That's the bottom line. You can get mad at them, you can be frustrated, you can criticize them all you want, all they're going to do is keep the door shut. [00:40:47] Patience is really important.
- The next P is persistence. Persistence is that not giving up even if you feel discouraged or frustrated but just noticing this is a long-term journey and you're just going to chip away at it and you're going to stay with the process.
That's the five P's. By the way, we do have a bonus P. And that would be prayer. This whole process needs to be bathed in a whole lot of prayer because nobody knows exactly when you should zig or when you should zag, when do you move toward or when do you step back a notch. There's a lot of unknowns. Husband and wife, parent and step-parent put a lot of prayer into this.
Laura Dugger: Ron, you've worked with so many blended families. What have you seen as some of the best practices that they've used for overcoming barriers and fostering more peaceful sibling relationships?
Ron Deal: When it comes to siblings, I'm quick to tell people and we talk about this in Building Love Together in Blended Families. There's a whole chapter on this. [00:41:49] Just like with step-parents and step-child relationships, you can't force or demand love. That's something two people figure out in their own time, in their own way. They develop that. It comes with trust.
So you can't demand love between step-siblings but you can create a climate that makes it more likely that they'll become friends and then eventually figure out how to be siblings. It's just managing climate. With younger children, it's "Hey, hey, hey, hey. We don't slap our sister. We don't treat each other that way. Be nice."
Those sorts of practical, honest things. We celebrate one another's victories. We show up for one another's soccer games. We cheer on each other. You can insist, if you will, create a climate where people are involved in the kinds of things that make them on the same team with one another. They'll have to figure out how close they get, how deep that relationship goes. That's entirely up to them. [00:42:50] Time and time spent together will usually facilitate and foster that.
By the way, a simple little fact that I like to share with people about step-sibling relationships. The research is pretty clear that early on in the family journey, step-siblings have less conflict than biological siblings. On the surface, you would hear that and you would go, hey, that's good news. Yeah, it is good news because it's less stuff for you to have to manage or deal with as a parent.
But it actually is indicative of the fact that they're less emotionally connected because they don't know each other or trust each other or love each other like they do siblings, they don't necessarily unload on each other, they're kind of nice.
It's kind of like when somebody tells you your kid is such a great kid in this classroom at school and you're like, Are you talking about my child? Because they're just a different child with other people, not their own family. Same thing's true between step-siblings.
But research shows that as time goes on and as step-sibling relationships deepen, the conflict goes up. [00:43:52] So the irony is the closer they get, the more conflict they may have. That's actually a positive sign instead of a negative one. But of course, you've got to deal with the conflict. So it's a process and you're trying to manage the climate so the process can happen.
Laura Dugger: And one other side that we don't often consider is how blended families can now involve maybe three living generations of family members. So how can step-families navigate healthy relationships with the grandparents involved?
Ron Deal: Yeah, it's a good question. Again, we've got a whole chapter on grandparenting in this book. I think grandparents have a significant role to play. They can give so many positive messages. They can help children deal with the transitions in and out of a single-parent home into a blended-family home. They're the ones that are there, who are consistent caregivers to grandchildren throughout the different transitions that are taking place. [00:44:51] All of that helps provide a stabilizing factor for kids.
But it also depends on how you become a step-grandparent. So, for example, there's four different types of grandparents or step-grandparents, I should say. Imagine you're in your early 70s and you're a widow and you meet this person who's also a widow and you decide to get married and you're thinking it's just the two of us, life's free. Well, you may bring grandkids and this new spouse may bring grandkids and you immediately become step-grandparents to the other's grandkids and you don't know them from Adam or Eve. Like you don't know these kids at all.
You have a loving relationship with your biological grandkids, but now you've got a 15-year-old step-grandson that you don't know or know anything about. And wow, he's had some things exposed to him in his life that you would never want for your grandkids. So all of a sudden it's a hard relationship to develop. You're new on the scene. The 15-year-old didn't ask for you. You didn't ask for him. Right? [00:45:52]
That could create some challenge. And so those five P's come into play. They are still going to apply. You're still going to pursue and pace and be persistent. And all of that is helpful. Knowing the kid's love language and how to approach that with some wisdom. All of that we flesh out in the book is a bonding process that helps step-grandparents.
One important factor here is what we call the middle generation. So the upper generation is the grandparent or step-grandparent, the lower generation is the children and the middle generation is the parents, the adult parents. They make or break whether a step-grandparent can even be involved in somebody's life.
So you marry this guy and he has grandchildren. Well, what if his adult children say, Uh-uh, we don't really want you spending time with our kids. Well, then you can't. All of a sudden there's a roadblock there. So you'd have to build a relationship with them first, gain their trust, then you might have access to the step-grandchildren. [00:46:50] So again, multi-layered, multi-generational, multi-household. It can be complex.
Laura Dugger: It can be so complex. And yet you've given us so much hope through this chat. So if you had to just boil all of this information down to a single action step, where would you encourage couples to start today?
Ron Deal: Well, get smart. All of my materials are called the Smart Stepfamily, the Smart Stepmom, the Smart Stepdad. Smart Stepfamilies is the brand, right?
The smarter you get about driving this vehicle and understanding how it works and how to steer it and navigate it and the maintenance on this motorcycle, the easier it is for you to be successful, to find what you got married for. Right?
And so start that journey. And let me tell you, 25 years ago, 27 years ago, when I really started first doing this, people complained to me for a decade and a half, there's nothing available on stepfamily living. And it was true. But it is no longer true. [00:47:53]
We have more materials in audio form and book form and resource and video and more coming out on a regular basis. You have no excuse to learn about this and to get smart, which helps you navigate the journey well and walk with God.
So come see us. Go to Rondeal.org. That's my personal website. You'll have access to everything that I have available through FamilyLife, through Smart Stepfamilies, events, podcasts, social media, all of it. You'll have access to it. Rondeal.org.
Laura Dugger: And if this is anybody's first time listening, we always will link to this in both our show notes and on our resources tab of the website, TheSavvySauce.com. But Ron, is there any other place that you would point them to follow you online?
Ron Deal: Well, yeah, there's multiple places, social media wise, Facebook, Twitter. But I think it's best if you just go to that one website because then you'll see the vast options. [00:48:56] Some people absorb information through audio. So our podcast, the FamilyLife Blended podcast is a great tool for them. But other people much rather read or watch a video. Well, we kind of have all of those distribution channels available to people, and a lot of them are free. It's a lot of free material. And so I think go to Rondeal.org and then you'll be able to find what works for you.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. I'm excited for people to get started today and find more hope and encouragement. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so Ron is my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Ron Deal: Well, you know, probably one of the most influential things in my life in the last 15 years has been a simple little phrase "What I know about me". I use this all the time in my own personal life. My wife and I use it together in our marriage. We use it in our parenting. I use it with my clients. And I'm teaching it in marriage conferences.
Because essentially what the phrase does, what I know about me, is it puts me in a mode of humility where I begin to reflect what's going on inside of me to the outside world. [00:50:13] So in my marriage, when I find myself frustrated or angry or upset or my wife's upset with me and she comes to me and all of a sudden I want to get defensive to stop and to say, Okay, what I know about me is that I'm feeling defensive and I'm feeling accused.
And what I usually do with that is I push back on you and I argue with you, honey, because I want you to like me, but that never works because then that just makes you more angry. And so what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to push back. I just want to hear you. I want to try to absorb this and understand a little bit better. And then I'm going to try to just affirm what you're about to say.
Now, if I go to the trouble of saying all of that out loud, a couple of things happen. Number one, I get my heart in the right place. I put on my humility and I'm called by God to put on humility. Then and only then... by the way, the brain science behind this is fascinating. Then and only then, Laura, am I calm enough to actually use all the skills and things that I've learned through the years and tools that I have in my emotional relational toolbox. [00:51:21] If I don't calm down and put on humility, I will never use the tools. So that's number one.
Number two, if I go to the trouble of saying all that out loud, my wife now knows Ron just put on his humility. I don't have to worry about him being defensive or argumentative like he used to be because now I know he's managing himself. So I just need to manage myself.
And guess what happens? She stops being a little more focused on me and a little more focused on herself, and we now have two people who have put on humility and are trying to walk correctly and rightfully before God and with each other in a loving way. And the odds of us finding our way through that conflict have gone up tremendously. It's still conflict. It's still uncomfortable. That's life. But with a little humility, at least we're not against each other. We're more on each other's side. What I know about me, that's the tool I'm using more and more these days. [00:52:22]
Laura Dugger: I love it. Such a memorable phrase. Ron, I just want to say thank you for your faithful work in this space and thank you for teaching us more about God's grace today. I truly appreciated having you as my guest.
Ron Deal: Thank you, Laura. It's been an honor to be with you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:53:24]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:54:23] We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:55:27]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 07, 2020
Monday Sep 07, 2020
110. Financial Heart Issues with Rachel Cruze
**Transcription Below**
1 Timothy 6:6-11 (NIV) “But godliness with contentment is great gain.”
Rachel Cruze is a #1 New York Times best-selling author and host of both The Rachel Cruze Show and The Rachel Cruze Show podcast. Rachel helps people learn the proper ways to handle money and stay out of debt. She’s authored three best-selling books, including Love Your Life, Not Theirs and Smart Money Smart Kids, which she co-wrote with her father, Dave Ramsey. You can follow Cruze on Twitter and Instagram at @RachelCruze and online at rachelcruze.com,youtube.com/rachelcruze or facebook.com/rachelramseycruze
Other Episodes Related to Finances:
Episode 3: Being Intentional with our Health, Finances and Relationships with Elizabeth Dixon
Episode 10: How to Align Your Finances with Your Values with Natalie Taylor
Episode 27: Life Lessons with my Dad with Bill Leman
Episode 70: Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright
Special Episode: Ideas for Spreading Generosity with Courtney DeFeo
Episode 98: Financial Wisdom Amidst COVID-19 and Beyond with Natalie Taylor
Patron-Only Episode: Answering Common Financial Questions with Certified Financial Planner and Speaker, Natalie Taylor
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
3 Books by Rachel Cruze:
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries offers a biblical solution to health care, connecting you to other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Our sponsor for this episode is Plan to Eat. Make sure you check out their app today or visit their website. Savvy Sauce listeners get a 60-day free trial that requires no payment information when they visit PlanToEat.com/Savvy.
Rachel Cruze is our guest today. You may recognize her from her longtime presence online teaching about all things related to finances. She's going to give us a quick peek into her parenting as it relates to training kids with financial wisdom. And she's going to share more of the root issue behind all financial decisions. [00:01:19]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Rachel.
Rachel Cruze: Thank you so much, Laura. Thanks for having me on.
Laura Dugger: Well, we gotta start here. What was it like to hate budgets as you grew up Dave Ramsey's daughter?
Rachel Cruze: Well, I think a lot of people assume that, you know, growing up as Dave Ramsey's kid that we had mutual fund birthday parties and had budget camps every summer and it was like this hardcore money household. But thankfully, that was not the case. Mom and dad were very good at teaching us how money works, but they weren't overly legalistic, if you will.
So the fact that I hated budgets, it wasn't an absolutely terrible thing. I still had to do one and understand like, okay, this is how you control your money, this is how you tell your money where to go and all of that.
And for that, I really was thankful because I'm not naturally good at details. I didn't care to budget. I just wanted to spend and enjoy.
I finally started to see that a budget doesn't limit your freedom. [00:02:19] A budget gives you freedom. It gives you permission to spend money on things that you want and things that you value. And so I really took that to heart probably a few months after I got married in my early 20s and I'm like, "Okay, this is good. This budgeting thing is good." So now actually I love a budget because it shows me how much I can spend.
Laura Dugger: And what has your financial journey looked like since that time?
Rachel Cruze: I mean, it has changed a little bit. I mean, the principles are still the same. When Winston and I got married about 10 years ago, yeah, we started off on a great foot financially. He really didn't come into the marriage with debt and I didn't have debt. And so that was a huge part of us being able to win faster, which I'm so thankful for.
It's something we teach couples all the time to get out of debt so that your income can be used, that you can give it away, that you can use it to build wealth and use it for your family. And so we've been doing that and it's been exciting.
You know, we still have our ups and our downs for sure, [00:03:20] we're still human, but the budget really has been the thing that's kind of kept it going and kept it in control and not feel like this absolute crazy show.
Laura Dugger: Well, and then just on a personal note, I'm wondering, did Winston follow the baby steps that your dad had laid out before you two met?
Rachel Cruze: That's funny. No, he didn't. Actually, he had never really heard of Dave Ramsey when we started dating in college and all that. He had a couple of things that he was like, "Oh, yeah, I have a credit card. No big deal."
You know, it was just the things that my average Americans do and have with their money that don't follow our plan. But, yeah, he learns probably relatively fast. I was pretty passionate about it, about kind of where I stood with everything. And he was like, "Yeah, it makes sense. Sure." It was not thankfully this major convincing or anything. He was pretty on board.
And he's a natural saver so this was all up his alley. He was like, "Oh, this is great. I love it. I love having saved money. So let's do it."
Laura Dugger: Well, that's awesome. [00:04:19] Because there often are couples where there's one saver and one spender. And it sounds like that's true for you two, and you've come together.
But I just love one of the quotes. I think it was from one of your books where you say "A budget gives you permission to spend without guilt." And I know my husband and I find that to be so true. In general, your teaching just leads to freedom. So will you elaborate on your three-step process for financial freedom in our minds?
Rachel Cruze: Yeah. We talk about the tactical side of money so many times, you know, getting out of debt and budgeting and saving, investing. But the heart issue, the mind issue... I mean, these are big topics that you really have to come around. But I think one of the ultimate things to find in life that helps you win over the long term is contentment.
And contentment is a word that's thrown around a lot. I think it can be hard to achieve. So I did kind of figure out that three-step process to ultimately get the contentment. And so you first have to start with gratitude. Just being grateful. And put things in place, patterns in place that allow that gratitude to come out, whether it's a list you make every day. [00:05:24] It's something that you say to your spouse. Maybe every day you just say one or two things you're grateful for them.
But just practicing gratitude is huge because once you're grateful for something and grateful for your life, you can transition into humility really fast. And humility, C.S. Lewis says that is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. And so when you're grateful for your life and you're able to be humble and serve and outpour, then contentment is the natural next step.
And contentment, it's not complacency. It's not laziness. Contentment really is at this place where you're just at peace with where you are in life and what you have, knowing that stuff is not going to create joy in your life. It can be fun, but it's not the end all be all.
So that contentment piece is key. Because I just find people, they're willing to sacrifice their lifestyle to get out of debt when they're content. They're able to say no to stuff and save when they're content. Content people just, they win faster financially. And it's a big heart issue that I think is really important, especially in today's world. [00:06:26]
Laura Dugger: That's really interesting. I kind of want to pause here because you've even taught that income doesn't really affect the people who choose to go into debt, that it does begin with more of a heart issue. So do you have any personal struggles of contentment that you can share and how you've applied this three-step process to enjoy the contentment?
Rachel Cruze: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I have to practice this on a daily basis. Yeah, for me, my downfall is always just like I'm a spender at heart, I love spending money. I can get in that rat race of just thinking, Oh... I mean, I'll even tell myself sometimes, which I hate, but I'll be online looking at something. I'm like, "Oh, I really want that," and in my head and in my spirit, I'm like, "That's going to satisfy this itch that I have. I'm going to scratch this itch and buy this shirt that's 50% off, but I'm going to get it in the mail in a few days." And it's like this adrenaline, exciting thinking that, okay, yeah, this will satisfy me. [00:07:28]
And I know in my brain, no, it's not going to scratch that itch, Rachel. No, there's deeper issues there that you're just trying to fulfill from buying this silly shirt that's online that has this nice sale or something.
I mean, I see that stuff all the time. And even social media, seeing people that I know, some people I don't even know, I've never met before that I follow, and seeing their life and thinking, "Wow, they have it all together." And I can start to go in that cycle too. And the mom guilt comes in. Are they a better mom than me? Or wow, their stuff is taking off more than mine.
I mean, you can get in this cycle of comparison, which eats away at contentment. And so, yeah, I always have to check myself. Again, starting with that gratitude place. And If find myself doing that, I'm like, "Okay, just be grateful for what you have, Rachel. Be here and be satisfied and be grateful." It's a for sure a journey for me.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Samaritan Ministries connects Christians from across the nation who care for one another's medical needs without the use of insurance. [00:08:32] Each month, members send their financial gift to a member with a need, pray, and send a note of encouragement, all while reflecting God's love and care.
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Plan to Eat is a subscription service that offers monthly and yearly options for $4.95 a month or $39 a year, which comes out to about 75 cents a week. [00:10:34] And even better, Savvy Sauce listeners get a 60-day free trial requiring no payment information when they visit plantoeat.com/savvy. Again, visit plantoeat.com/Savvy for your free 60-day trial. I hope you check out Plan to Eat today.
Laura Dugger: Switching gears here, what tips do you have for married couples so that they can be on the same page with their finances?
Rachel Cruze: This is a very key component, I think, to winning with money when you're married is to work together and be a team. And you can do that a couple of ways. I think getting on the same page with your money, a budget, doing the budget together, agreeing where your money's going reveals so much more than just where your money's going. I mean, it really reveals your goals. It reveals your dreams. It reveals your fears. And so working together as a team is very, very crucial by doing that budget together.
Combine all your accounts. If you still have separate checking accounts, combine them. [00:11:35] Work as one. That's the one piece of advice people just are not happy with me that I give. A lot of people are like, "No, they need to be separate. You're still an individual and all this." And I'm like, "Yes, you are still an individual. But when you're married, you say one in every aspect of your marriage, including your money." And so coming together and combining those accounts is key.
And then I think creating long-term goals together. Find something that you guys are working towards because it just kind of keeps you motivated in this process. It could be that you want to get out of debt together. Maybe it's that you want to save X amount of money. Maybe it's you want to pay for your kid's college. Maybe it's you want to move school districts and be in a different county. I mean, whatever it is, have those dreams, those goals long-term together that you can work to as a team.
Laura Dugger: Well, and then ideally, we would be financially fit ourselves as parents before we attempt to train our kids in this area. But certainly, there is so much grace for this on-the-job learning that each of us experience. I would love to know how you and Winston are intentionally training your own children about money. [00:12:39]
Rachel Cruze: Yes. So we have a 5-year-old, a 3-year-old, and an 8-month-old. So the five-year-old is the one that we're working with right now. Caroline, the 3-year-old, yeah, she's three. You can start then. Honestly, we probably... We have a lot going on. So Caroline's watching her sister a lot.
But with Amelia, we're starting to teach her that money comes from work. She's getting more responsibilities around the house and helping pay for those things and showing her what things cost and starting to really show her what it looks like to give and save and spend and why we do the things that we do.
We'll have those conversations with her and make her do a couple of things. But even just two nights ago, my husband and I were kind of like, Oh. It filled my heart and made us kind of giggle at the same time. But she made a comment about something she got as a birthday gift recently. And she opened it, out of the box finally, it had been a little while.
And the toy came out of the box and she made the comment and she was like, "Oh, that is just not what I was expecting." And I was like, "What?" [00:13:40] And so we kind of walked her like, "Well, Amelia, listen, sometimes life is not what we expect and it's okay to be kind of sad that you were thinking it was one thing and it's not. But listen, we're going to be grateful. We're going to be grateful for this. And if you want a different kind of this toy, maybe we can save up and pay for it."
This whole conversation back and forth. And she said, "Yeah, well, we'll have to go to work because you and Daddy go to work to help people that don't have houses and food and water." And I was like, "Wow, she's 3 years old, but she understands we ultimately go to work to help people." Obviously, I help in the money space, but we make money and in turn, we give it back and we give to people that need it.
And so it just was one of those moments as a parent you think you're speaking this crazy language, but they get it. Like your kids are getting it. They can connect the dots. You know, I think some people think, Oh, they're still a little too young for the subject. And I'm like, "No. Dive in and talk about it and show them how money works in a real-life example."
Laura Dugger: So it sounds like you're prioritizing just open dialogue with kids when they're age-appropriate. [00:14:42] And then also maybe teaching that work equals pay at the end. So paying them on commission. And it sounds like a heart attitude of gratitude. But is there anything else that you prioritize teaching them at that age or even as they get a little bit older?
Rachel Cruze: That's the basics of it. I mean, when they get older, I really will probably push more to her, giving them some of that money, saving some of that money and spending that money, kind of that little budget that you can do with kids and helping her learn to do all three well. But we're not doing that right now at five. It's still kind of in the beginning stages.
Laura Dugger: I love that. As you think about your kids when they're ready to launch, what are some of the financial end goals or something that you guys would consider a win?
Rachel Cruze: I would love for them to live debt-free. I would love for them to be generous givers. I would love for them to be able to do the things that God's called them to do in their life and money is just a tool that helps them do that. [00:15:43]
And I think helping them learn the heart position of money, meaning that they are managers for what God has given us. God owns it all and we are managing this for Him. And kind of pulling them up to that higher calling.
Laura Dugger: Is there any scripture that keeps you focused on your financial goals as a family?
Rachel Cruze: Probably in 1 Timothy when it says, "Godliness with contentment is great gain." We kind of talked about contentment earlier, but that's a big one for me. It's just knowing like, man, when you have godliness paired with contentment, you can gain a lot in this world because there's not much the world can offer that can allow what God can fill. So that's a big one for me.
Laura Dugger: And then on the flip side, I think sometimes it's easier to learn for some people through the opposite. So what are some of the pitfalls that you and Winston want to avoid in teaching your children about finances?
Rachel Cruze: I never want them to get the picture from us that stuff is going to make them happy. [00:16:44] I talk a lot about that. It's okay to have nice stuff, but don't let your nice stuff have you. And it can have you by your identity, your happiness, everything we just talked about, being wrapped up in just tangible stuff, thinking, "Oh, if I could just have that purse, I'd be happy. If I could just have this, I'd be happy." And really, really, really not letting that be the priority is big.
Then also your stuff can have you when you go into debt for it. So that's a pitfall that we are avoiding with our kids and talking about the dangers of debt and showing them, you know, in Scripture, there's nothing good said about debt. And I don't think it's a sin. I don't think it's a salvation issue. So if your listener, you know, has student loan debt, I'm like, no, you're okay. You're okay. You're going to go to heaven. You know, it's not a salvation issue, but it can be a very dangerous game to play. And so we just avoid it at all costs. And I want to teach my kids that as well.
Laura Dugger: Hi, friends. You've heard us request you take a moment to rate and review us on iTunes. And I want to give you a quick explanation of why this is important.
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Clearly, you had some great training growing up. So thinking back to yourself as a kid, now that you're an adult and you can reflect on this, what do you think are some of the biggest lessons you learned about finances just from witnessing your parents?
Rachel Cruze: They said no to themselves a lot in order to say yes to other things. And it was kind of this trade-off. And I just think it's true today. I think that there's things that you want. Sometimes you can just outright buy it and it's fine. Or maybe you say no, even though you can afford it and you want it, to say yes to something else that's a better priority. [00:18:50]
That was a big thing that I saw them do. I think it just shows a lot of self-discipline, a lot of wisdom. So that was one thing I saw. I saw them being generous a lot, which is something that I've really taken on, that I really appreciate.
And then they practice what they preach. I mean, I think more is caught than taught. And parents, your kids are watching you. So if you're preaching one thing and doing another, that's what's known as a hypocrite, right? I'm like, you have to be consistent in your words and your actions.
And no one's perfect. We're not perfect at this. We need grace for sure. But the overall big value systems of money as you're teaching your kids, I would really say that following it with the actions is extremely important. And that's going to have a great influence on your children.
Laura Dugger: I want to zero in on that word "generosity". When you say that you witness them being generous, do you have any practical ways that we could emulate that or specific instances that you can recall that really taught you about generosity?
Rachel Cruze: Yeah. So everything from when Christmas came around and we were giving gifts, bought gifts for kids or anything around that, to even we'd see a family at dinner and they would pay for their dinner and talk about it, or they would leave a huge tip for the waiter that was working our table. [00:20:05] So it was things like that that they pointed out. And they told us not in a bragging way, but I think just to allow us to know, you know, dad would say, like, we've left a big tip. So let's go to the car and watch the window and see if you can see her reaction or his reaction.
We get to experience the joy of giving. So they would do it in all different kinds of ways, big, big ways, and even just small, small ways. But it spoke volumes.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to hear because I know a lot of times we focus on that scripture about one of your hands not knowing what the other is doing. And yet as parents, when we can talk about things and demonstrate it, we've seen that that's so powerful. And there's also scripture about letting your light shine before others so that they can see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven. So I feel like you just brought that to life. So thank you for sharing some personal examples.
Rachel Cruze: Yes.
Laura Dugger: What are some of the best practices you recommend for all parents?
Rachel Cruze: You know, teaching your kids the tangible aspects of money is big. [00:21:05] And then also getting to a place where you can pass on a legacy to them. You know, that may be being that you're helping to pay for college if you're able to do that. Or maybe it's in ways that you leave them something from your legacy that then they pass on to their children.
I mean, scripture says that a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children. And I think that inheritance can be tangible like money. I think it can be spirituality. I think it plays into so many ways. Taking that seriously and saying, You know what? If we build wealth on this side of us, we're going to teach our kids how to pass that down and to handle that well so that they can help others and be tremendously generous is a huge goal.
Laura Dugger: Do you have just a quick overview of a few practical tips for parents listening if they want to train kids? Let's just say generally like 5, 10 and 15. What would your tips be for those ages?
Rachel Cruze: Yes, I would say get a chore chart and write down the chores you want them to do around the house and then pay them. [00:22:06] Pay them once a week and say, "Okay, this is payday. Let's look to see what chores you've done and have three little envelopes. Give, save, and spend." And as you pay them, let them divide it up into those three areas.
Then I would say the older ones, you know, the 15-ish and older, get a student checking account at the bank and teach them how a debit card works, what it looks like to pay for things online. I used to say write checks. You probably could still teach them to write checks. It's just not as prominent these days.
But teaching them how to balance a bank statement and to budget for things that they want. And mom and dad did this. They put a certain amount of money at the beginning of the month in this checking account for me. And they did it for my older sister as well and my younger brother. And we were in charge of managing that account.
And if we wanted more money, we had to go get a job and work and make more money and put it in this account. But we were never allowed to ask them for money. So if we wanted to go to the movies with friends or we wanted to buy something at the mall, we couldn't ask them for like a $20 bill. It had to come out of this account that we've been managing. [00:23:06]
And we had to make decisions, even as teenagers, of, Okay, I can go out to eat with my friends here. But that means I won't have money to go to a movie next weekend. What do I want to do? You know, you kind of have to make these decisions as a teen. And that was really, really helpful.
Laura Dugger: I love that idea because then you can make the $50 mistake rather than the $5,000 or $50,000 mistake later on.
Rachel Cruze: Exactly. Yeah. There's a lot of mistakes that can happen under your roof that won't damage them long-term financially versus, yeah, the first time they ever handle money they make a mistake on a car lot and it's a $30,000 mistake. Exactly.
Laura Dugger: Well, I love asking successful women like yourself this question. Just out of curiosity, what has God taught you about simultaneously living into both of these precious roles of career and motherhood?
Rachel Cruze: Yes, it's been hard, but I feel like I've gotten in a pretty good groove of it. I have learned that I can't do everything. [00:24:06] So I have learned to outsource what I can outsource and not have guilt or shame about that.
I have put in our budget certain things. We've taken things out of the budget in order to have someone help clean the house every other week, which has been huge, so that I'm not doing it on the weekends, we're not spending family time with that.
Shipt is the grocery delivery service. I've invested in that app because now I don't have to go to the grocery. I pay a little bit more for the groceries to be delivered, but, again, I can outsource that. But I can't outsource being a mom, and I can't outsource my love, and I can't outsource the times that I'm home with them and present with them. So that's one thing I've learned.
I've also learned that having life balance is not about being 50-50, but it's about being 100 percent present. My friend, Christy Wright, always says that, and I love that quote because it allows me to be at work and be using the gifts that God's given me, and I'm present here. When I'm at work, I am doing my work as unto the Lord. Like, I am focused. I'm here. But when I'm home, I'm mom. I try not to keep my phone with me. I say, you know what? I'll check email when they go to bed, but I'm here with my kids. [00:25:07]
I've also learned that there are seasons. There are seasons of times you're able to do a little bit more hard driving at work, and there's times that you need to be a little bit more at home. So I'm even shifting in that. I have three kids now, five and under, which is just crazy, and it's insane, and I love it, and even shifting to be home more with them in this next season. And so that's something I've really felt God pull my heart toward and something that I'm being obedient in.
It's been a joy to be able to do that because I know, you know, in short five years, they're all going to be in school, and I'm going to have the day to work even more, you know, when that season comes. So I've learned that things are seasonal and to listen to where the Spirit's guiding you.
Laura Dugger: It's such a common struggle to, like you say, try and chase this elusive balance, which isn't really a realistic goal.
Rachel Cruze: Yeah, you're exactly right. I know when people are like, Oh, it's just life balance. I'm like, no, that doesn't exist. As a whole person, you're not going to have the perfect amount of physical time every day and spiritual time and intellectual time and family time and social time and work time. [00:26:08] Like, it's not going to be equally balanced. It's very seasonal.
The hard thing is, I think people make the mistake that over the course of their life, their life is unbalanced. And they focus all their time at work and neglect their family, and they have these grown kids now that don't even have a relationship with them. Or you can pick any part of who we are as people. And if you focus on one thing for too long over too much time, other things start to suffer. And so I think looking at yourself as a whole person over the course of your life is really key.
Laura Dugger: I love that you just boiled that down to keeping in step with the Spirit, because I'm sure that God does not have a cookie-cutter answer for all of us on how much to pour into each role. But now, just for fun, as it relates to personal development, what are you currently reading, talking about, and listening to?
Rachel Cruze: Well, okay, so, Lord, don't judge me on this. But I have fallen in love with thriller-type novels, like my books I love, like, a murder mystery. So I just finished one of those, and it was great. [00:27:10] As I said, I'm doing a Bible study with some girls in my neighborhood, Seamless by Angie Smith. That's been excellent.
My listening, honestly, has been just music on the radio. I'm kind of like old school in that way, that if I'm driving or something, I'm like, I just need a little bit of music in the background. And that's good. But if I get a good sermon or something sent to me, podcast, that's usually what I'll listen to.
Laura Dugger: Love it. And, Rachel, just in general, you're so fun and helpful to learn from. So where can listeners go to find you online?
Rachel Cruze: Thank you. Rachelcruze.com has a lot of resources. I have a YouTube show and also that we put on Facebook, as well as a podcast and a few books out wherever books are sold.
Laura Dugger: Great. We will link to all of that in our show notes and on our Resources tab of our website. And we're called The Savvy Sauce because "Savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. [00:28:09] So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Rachel Cruze: My savvy sauce is probably say no to debt because it steals your joy and it steals your paycheck.
Laura Dugger: Rachel, you are enthusiastic, humble, and just a wealth of knowledge and advice. Thank you for generously sharing all of your savvy ways with us today. It was a blast to have you as my guest.
Rachel Cruze: Awesome. Thank you so much. Well, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:29:12] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:30:14] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:31:16]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Aug 31, 2020
Monday Aug 31, 2020
109. Powerful Purpose of Introverts with Holley Gerth
**Transcription Below**
Holley Gerth is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, life coach, and speaker with a master of science degree in mental health. She cofounded (in)courage, a site that received almost one million views in its first six months, and cohosts the popular podcast More Than Small Talk. Holley is passionate about empowering people, especially introverts, to embrace who they are and become all they're created to be. Holley lives in the South with her husband, Mark. You can connect with her at holleygerth.com.
Psalms 139:14 NIV “I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Sample of Books by Holley Gerth:
The Powerful Purpose of Introverts
You’re Made for a God-Sized Dream
Other Savvy Sauce Episodes to Grow in Self-Awareness:
42 Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Beth McCord
71 Deep Dive Into the Enneagram with Beth McCord
72 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 1 with Kathleen Edelman
73 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 2 with Kathleen Edelman
85 Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
92 The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Samaritan Ministries
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Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries offers a Biblical solution to health care, connecting you with other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
This conversation is one of the most enlightening chats I've ever been a part of as it relates to personality differences of extroverts and introverts.
Our guest has an impressive bio. Holley Gerth is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, life coach, and speaker with a Master of Science degree in mental health.
She's going to share so many insights into the lives and personalities of introverts. So whether you're an introvert or you love someone else who is one, this time is going to be super helpful.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Holley. [00:01:17]
Holley Gerth: Thanks for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Goodness, can I just start by saying I love, love, love your writing. It's so obvious why you're a bestselling author. And so today I'm excited because we're going to be discussing your newest book. But before we get to all of that, will you just begin by telling us more about who you are, who you share your life with, and how you typically spend your days?
Holley Gerth: Yes. Well, I'm the granddaughter of a Christian bookstore owner. So I was that little kid with a big stack of books dreaming of being a writer when I grew up. So it's fun that that actually happened.
Another dream that has come true in my life is my family. I have kind of a crazy family story. I've been married to my husband, Mark, for about 20 years. We couldn't have kiddos, and God brought our daughter, Lavelle, into our lives when she was 20. And so she now has two little kiddos and a husband. So I just became a nana for the second time three weeks ago, which is very exciting. [00:02:22] So I have Lavelle in my life, her husband David, little Eula, and now Clement Luther as well.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredible. And congratulations.
Holley Gerth: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: Well, your most recent book is titled The Powerful Purpose of Introverts. We were chatting a little bit before this, I was telling you I'm about as extroverted as they come. But I 100% adored this book. And so I can vouch for saying it's helpful for both introverts and extroverts.
But I do think there are so many misconceptions of the definition of these categories. And you explain in the book that introversion and extroversion aren't about personality but how we're physically wired. So can you elaborate?
Holley Gerth: Right. That was a big aha for me. Also, none of us are 100% introvert or extrovert. We're all somewhere on a continuum. [00:03:21] I actually have a little one-minute quiz on my side if someone's curious how much introvert do I have in me. But like you said, Laura, you're probably more on the extrovert side, I'm more on the introvert side. But that actually comes from how we're wired.
We now know that introverts and extroverts use different primary neurotransmitters, have different parts of their nervous systems that they rely on more, and also use different primary brain pathways.
And so I love that because it says to me that we are created as introverts and extroverts, that we're a complementary pairing, that God said, I'm going to put these two different types of people together because we have strengths that really bring out the best in each other. And we kind of balance out the world when we're both fully embracing who God created us to be.
Laura Dugger: Amen to all of that. [00:04:20] But just in case anyone's curious about the definitions or about any misconceptions, do you want to give an overview of how an introvert can be defined?
Holley Gerth: Yes. I would say an introvert is someone who engages with the world differently as far as how we respond to external stimulation. And external stimulation just means anything coming into our nervous systems from the outside. So that's really the basis of it.
A lot of times people think being an introvert is about people because people are the most stimulating things in our environment. But it's actually not about that. It's just about how we process what's happening in our environment.
Laura Dugger: Okay, that's helpful. So someone who loves people and maybe really enjoys conversation with them, that could be someone who is extroverted or introverted. Is that right? [00:05:21]
Holley Gerth: Either one. Either one. Because both introverts and extroverts love people equally. They are equally social, just differently social. For example, an introvert would probably enjoy coffee with one friend more than a crowded room or party. Because, again, going back to that stimulation, there's a lot less going on in that conversation with one friend.
Introverts can fully focus. We can take our time processing. We can sort of lock in on this one person and give them our full attention. And that's sort of our preferred way of connection.
Extroverts may like to do that sometimes, too. But they're also more likely to enjoy things where there are more people in the room, where they can talk to several different people in a short amount of time, where they can connect or be in a group or share a story.
And so it's not about how much we love people or whether we're social or not. [00:06:21] It's just what setting is the most natural for us to truly connect with people.
Laura Dugger: I want to go a little bit further. So let's just do a little brain and hormones 101. So specifically, will you teach us more about the brain differences between introverts and extroverts?
Holley Gerth: Sure. So I mentioned the neurotransmitters. So we all have a neurotransmitter called dopamine. It's a reward chemical. Anything, again, that external stimulation is going to activate it. You can think of dopamine as kind of like caffeine. It revs us up. It energizes us.
Introverts kind of have a dopamine level that already feels good to them. It's like they've had their coffee for the day and they're set, where extroverts have a more active dopamine network and they actually need more of it to feel their best. So they're going to say, "I need a few more cups of coffee." So the way they're going to get that is by finding external stimulation, like engaging with people or having an adventure, you know, all of those things that we think about with extroverts. [00:07:30]
Introverts rely more on a different neurotransmitter called acetylcholine. And acetylcholine is released when we turn inward, when we're reflective, when we're in quieter environments, when we're doing things that are more restful. And that is what makes introverts feel our best.
So you can kind of think of dopamine as coffee, acetylcholine as tea. We all use both of these, of course, but we each have a slight preference for one over the other.
So extroverts lean more toward that energizing dopamine system. Introverts lean more toward that calmer, reflective, inward-focused acetylcholine. So that's one major difference.
Then we each have two divisions of our nervous system: sympathetic and parasympathetic. And they work in much the same way. One revs us up, one is in charge of calming us down. So, again, extroverts and introverts rely on different parts of our nervous systems. [00:08:34]
And then the third thing is they have actually found that introverts and extroverts use different primary brain pathways. And so extroverts use a shorter, faster brain pathway. That means they're mostly focused on the present. They're good at thinking quickly, speaking quickly, acting quickly.
Whereas introverts have a longer, more complex brain pathway that goes through several different centers of their brain. They pull in the past, the present, and the future, then kind of combine that. And then they're ready to share what's on their mind.
So a lot of times introverts will get frustrated because they say, in a meeting or something, I need time to gather my thoughts. Why can't I just spit it out? And it's because they're using that different brain pathway. But it becomes a strength because they are considering so many different parts of a situation and bringing that into whatever they're adding to the conversation. [00:09:39] So they're really thinking through what they're going to say.
So if you picture a situation like a meeting where you have an extrovert that says, "I have an idea," and the introvert says, "Let's think about how to make that happen," and then the extrovert says, "Okay, now it's time to make a decision and act," and the introvert says, "I'll make sure those steps get taken." You kind of see that back and forth between the faster brain pathway and then the more reflective, complex brain pathway and how together those two work really well.
And again, this isn't exclusive. We all use both of these brain pathways. It's just that we naturally go to the one or the other first.
Laura Dugger: I really appreciate what you just shared. I remember reading something like introverts are not slow processors. They're deep processors or deep thinkers.
Holley Gerth: Yes. A lot of times people say about introverts, You know, she doesn't talk a lot, but when she does, it's worth hearing. [00:10:39] And so we need to lean into that and not say, Okay, I have to make myself respond differently. But instead say, I have permission to take the time that I need to think because that is going to empower me to add more value to the conversation I'm in or more insight into a decision that needs to be made.
And so it is always okay for an introvert to just say, You know what? That is really important to me. I need just a little bit of time to think about it. We often feel uncomfortable giving ourselves that permission, but it's totally okay. And it lets us work more at our peak capacity.
Laura Dugger: And then you also write about self-awareness being crucial to thriving. So can you just elaborate both on what self-awareness is and what it is not?
Holley Gerth: I think self-awareness is just understanding who you are, who God has made you. [00:11:41] There's three different ways that we can approach the world. We can approach the world from a place of self-focus, from a place of self-criticism or from a place of self-awareness.
Self-focus is pride. You know, I'm better than everyone else. Self-criticism is that insecurity and fear that can trip us up where I'm not as good as anyone else. Self-awareness is just saying, you know what? God has made me unique. He's given me strengths and gifts, and I want to understand those so that I can serve and fulfill His purpose for my life.
So I think a lot of times, especially believers, get tripped up because we confuse self-awareness with that self-focus. Or we try to do self-awareness and run into self-criticism. But I think saying, you know what? When I choose to be aware of who God made me, it just empowers me to serve and love well and to thrive as who I'm created to be. [00:12:44]
I love how that verse, Psalm 139:14 says, "I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made." And so self-awareness does not lead to pride. It doesn't lead to self-condemnation. Instead, it leads to praise. Because we can say, "Wow, God, look at who you made me. Now help me offer that to the world."
Laura Dugger: I agree with that totally. That discovery is so helpful. And when you look at others who are self-aware, I just find them to be so life-giving.
Holley Gerth: Yes. Usually, people who are self-aware are good at giving other people permission to be who they are too. Because if we are not self-aware, our basic assumption usually tends to be that everyone is just like us. So when we understand, Okay, I'm different and unique. I have my own strengths and purpose and abilities, then we look at other people in the same way and say, "I'm not asking you to be more like me. [00:13:44] I want to know how I can empower you to be who you're created to be. And then how we can partner together for the kingdom."
That's what I love about it is that being aware of yourself allows you to also be aware of how others are created. And then when we all do that, we become the body of Christ, which is God's heart and vision. I think that gets me more excited than anything else is when I see someone just take their place in God's plan and embrace who they're created to be.
Laura Dugger: I think I'm with you. I'm discovering there's something too that you want it for everyone. And the more I read the Bible, it seems like God wants that for each of His children and for us to work together in that, not try to be someone else.
So for you as a life coach and counselor, what tools have you seen help with self-awareness?
Holley Gerth: Well, I was just listening to one of your episodes with Beth McCord about the Enneagram. [00:14:48] I think that's a helpful tool. I really like the Myers-Briggs personality test. And so that's sort of one letter in that will give you whether you're an introvert or extrovert.
I like a quiz by Gretchen Rubin called The Four Tendencies that helps us figure out how we respond to different expectations. And I think the love languages, most of us are familiar with that, but just understanding how we give and receive love.
I think all of those are helpful tools. There's a lot of them out there. So just kind of exploring and seeing what appeals to you and then applying it in your life. That's an incredible list.
Laura Dugger: Other than Gretchen Rubin, we've had guests on each of those topics, including Dr. Gary Chapman with The Five Love Languages and Scott Wildy with Myers-Briggs and multiple guests for the Enneagram. So I'm glad you brought that up. We will certainly link to that in the show notes if someone wants to pair that with your book to help grow in the self-awareness. [00:15:52]
But back to your book, you share nine specific strengths of introverts, and the first one being strategic solitude. So how is solitude different than simply being alone?
Holley Gerth: Well, I hear introverts say a lot, "I need time alone." And that is actually very true, again, because of what we talked about with our brain and nervous system wiring. When we're saying, "I need to be alone," we're saying "I need some time with less external stimulation to be restored.
If you think about our nervous systems as nets, because of the way we're wired, introverts are like a net with really small holes. And so we catch everything going on around us, which means at some point our net is going to be full and we're going to need to take some time to empty some of that out, which means just having time to process.
That is different from just being alone. I think being alone is about the absence of other people. [00:16:56] I think solitude is about an intentional choice to reconnect with God, with your true self, and even with others.
Sometimes when I'm alone, I actually feel still really connected to other people. The goal of solitude is to come back to connection, where when we're just alone, sometimes we can feel a sense of disconnection.
So I encourage introverts to ask themselves, am I choosing this time on my own? Is it intentional and restorative? Does it ultimately make me feel more connected to God, others, and my true self? And if the answer to those questions is yes, then it's solitude. It's not just time alone.
And solitude is absolutely essential for introverts. It's actually essential for extroverts, too, even though they may not need quite as much. In our world today, solitude, I think, is so important because it's where we think, we reflect, we slow down and process, we live intentionally, we come up with new ideas, we exercise our creativity. [00:18:08]
All of these things happen in solitude. And so I want introverts to be able to let go of any guilt they feel about needing that time alone. It is not selfish. It's actually an act of service.
Laura Dugger: I've always just envisioned solitude has to be sitting there trying not to think about anything. As you described it, I kind of had my own aha moment that that's actually one of my favorite and most fruitful spiritual disciplines.
Holley Gerth: And it is. For much of the history of the church, solitude was a regular rhythm in the lives of believers, just like prayer or fellowship. We happen to live in a time in our culture where faith leans a little more extroverted. And I think solitude is maybe one thing that we have lost in all of that.
So, yes, solitude is fruitful. It's creative. It's necessary. And it is, I think, part of just our walks with God, because when we are alone, we are still with Him. [00:19:13]
Laura Dugger: So what can help introverts and then all of us really find what you refer to as sacred confidence?
Holley Gerth: Yeah, I share a text in the book that I got from my amazing friend, Taylor, who is a smart, beautiful, wonderful introvert. She sent me a note late one night and said, "Sometimes I wonder why God made me an introvert. And sometimes I even wonder if he can love me that way." And that broke my heart that I've had the same thing expressed by other introverts who just feel like they don't fit at church or they don't fit with a certain kind of faith walk and think, I need to change.
I think sacred confidence is, again, going back to that self-awareness and then just realizing that there is no one right way to connect with God. I tell people, think about how you connect with people when you feel the closest to the people that you love. [00:20:18]
So, for example, I mentioned having coffee with one person. That'd probably be it for me is I'm sitting across from you, there are no distractions, we're engaged in meaningful conversation. I realized that's how I feel closest to God, too. I literally this morning had coffee with Jesus at my breakfast table. I had my coffee and my journal, and I was with Him like I would be with a friend.
So if we think about that, then it gives us insight into how we're created to connect with God. It is okay if you're an introvert who enjoys being alone and journaling as your faith practice. It is okay if you're an extrovert who loves going on mission trips with 20 strangers to another country, if that is what makes you feel closest to God.
So saying God is delighted by how we connect with Him as we are because He's the one who made us that way. [00:21:16] And, yes, I think there are practices we're all called to, and I'm not saying to exclude those. But just to lean in more, to give yourself permission to lean in more to the spaces where you feel closest to God.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that gives so much freedom. I identify with resisting how I'm created to lean into that fellowship. I enjoy that so much, and it does produce the fruit of the Spirit. And yet I think there's this lie as well of, Oh, this is selfish. You should be doing a different way to connect with the Lord. So you're saying you think a lot of introverts experience that as well?
Holley Gerth: I think so. I think when it comes to being a person who loves God and loves others, we confuse quantity with quality. So we think, if I'm a loving person, if I'm a good Christian, then I have to have as many relationships as possible in my life and help as many people as I can and go to the ends of the earth. [00:22:21]
When I look at Scripture, I never see anything about quantity. I see God talking about quality, like 1 Corinthians 13, where we're told love is patient, love is kind. Those are things that we can do, whether we're with one person or whether we're with 1,000 people.
So encouraging introverts to say, stop picturing any kind of quantity when it comes to your relationship with God and your relationship with people and focus on quality, focus on loving who is in front of you in that moment, and don't worry about it, if you don't have as big of a group of people in your life as someone else might, that's not what you're wired for, and that's okay.
So I think, again, it's just saying, God delights in us when we reflect His image that He's placed within us. And we all do that a little bit differently. [00:23:21] And we need both. We need introverts and extroverts to be exactly who they are.
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Laura Dugger: Holley, as you're describing this, it just makes me envision freedom and that you want to invite people to live in this freedom and grow closer to God. So will you take us back? What was the catalyst for choosing this as your book to write?
Holley Gerth: I would say this is a book that I've been preparing to write my whole life. I remember being in fourth grade. Actually, when I told my mom I was writing this book, she was like, "Of course you are. [00:25:23] In fourth grade, you did your science project on birth order and read Kevin Leman's birth order book and came up with an assessment to give all your friends and see if they matched up with the characteristics and advanced to regionals." And I was like, "Okay, I guess I did."
And I didn't hear the word "introvert" until I was in college. And it was one of those moments where I remember exactly where I was. Like I have this photograph in my mind of it. I was sitting on this old gray carpet in this building and campus ministry had a speaker come in to talk about personality and they said the word "introvert". And I realized for the first time I'm not the only one who feels this way or is wired this way or who would rather have a conversation with one person than be in a big group of people. All of these things.
So I started just learning and studying introversion and what that meant. [00:26:21] And back then there really wasn't a lot. It was really Susan Cain's Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking that came out in 2012 that made the conversation about introverts mainstream.
But I read that and every other book I could get my hands on and I just began to realize that there's this other side of the story to being an introvert that isn't told as often as I would like for it to be. We tend to define introversion by what's not. "I don't like small talk. I don't love big parties. I don't this or I can't that."
And that is not the full or even the most important part of the story of being an introvert. The most important story is introverts have specific strengths that our world needs more than ever before. That we are wired for connection, that we process in a way that is really valuable, that we have so much to bring to our friends and family and communities and churches and the world. [00:27:30]
And so I wanted to empower introverts to not think I need to change who I am, but instead, I want to fully embrace who I am. So that's a journey I've been on personally and that is what I've spent hours and hours and hours studying everything I can get my hands on about introverts from brain science to books to sending out a survey to my blog readers that over 2,500 people responded to.
So I've condensed all of that, my personal journey into this book and it has been transformational for me. And so I am excited for introverts to be able to learn about who they are and about people who love, lead, or share life with introverts to learn more about what that means if you happen to have an introvert in your world somewhere.
Laura Dugger: Well, I just want to say well done because your mission has certainly been accomplished. Now, will you describe how happiness can be different for introverts and extroverts? [00:28:34]
Holley Gerth: Yes. As I mentioned, we live in a culture that right now leans a little more extroverted. That actually hasn't been the case throughout all of history. It's actually not even true everywhere in the world right now.
For example, Finland is a more introverted culture overall and they also keep getting ranked as the happiest country in the world, which is interesting. But because of that, when we see images of happiness, like on commercials or places like that, they tend to look more extroverted.
So you think of the beer commercial where everybody's partying on the beach or we're all at a concert or we're going on a vacation on a cruise ship with all these people having adventures. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with leaning toward those adventures or big groups. It's just that that definition of happiness isn't a fit for everyone.
Because of our brain wiring at the extrovert experience of happiness looks more like excitement and enthusiasm. [00:29:40] Where for introverts, because of the acetylcholine that we favor, happiness looks more like calm and contentment.
And so if an introvert who is wired to feel at their very best when they are in situations where they can be calm and content is always seeing cultural messages that say happiness looks like being enthusiastic and excited, then they may start to question, what if I'm not really happy?
So what introverts need to know is you are happy. You are just differently happy. Your happiness just looks different. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
And so I challenge people to say, what are your happiness synonyms? For example, if there is a long list of happiness synonyms, which actually have in the book of words that people can choose from, extroverts might be more likely to circle enthusiastic, excited. [00:30:41] Introverts might be more likely to circle calm, content.
And so understanding that subtext to our happiness can really protect us from chasing what looks like happiness, but is actually not a great fit for who we are. We can get to a place in our lives where we're like, "I did everything I was supposed to do, I chased everything I was supposed to chase, I did all this outward stuff, and I'm not happy. What's wrong with me?" It's often that we have taken on a secondhand definition of happiness that just isn't a fit for us.
So I found this can be really clarifying for introverts, not only in obviously increasing their happiness but also giving them more clarity about what they really want to pursue in life.
Laura Dugger: I just want to respond with a few things, because that section was especially profound. I think you taught me that well-meaning extroverts can try and encourage introverts to experience fun the way they have fun or they experience it. [00:31:49] And introverts are probably feeling "I'm already happy. I'm just differently happy." So that was a huge realization.
But even bigger than that, my husband and I have been married for over 11 years and we've always prayed to continue getting to know each other better. Way back, even before we were married, he took the Myers-Briggs and tested as an extrovert. And then he's dropped some hints over time, like, "I might be an introvert."
I never fully bought into that until this chapter I was reading next to him. And I just paused and asked him to give me his definition of happiness. And he verbatim started listing the words in your introvert synonyms. So it was just this gateway to other conversations.
So due to your book, it was such an answer to that prayer to get to know each other better. [00:32:48] So I want to say thank you, because you helped us both realize, indeed, he identifies as an introvert.
Holley Gerth: Oh, I love that. And that's such a great point, that extroverts may be worried about an introvert in their life, and thinking, how can I help this person be happier? And they're actually good. So I love that that gave you insight into your marriage.
Laura Dugger: Yes, that was a shocking and awesome discovery. So the book has helped. You also shared that you battled depression and anxiety. And statistics show that many people do. So what would you say has helped you the most, especially as an introvert?
Holley Gerth: Introverts are actually a little more likely to struggle with depression and anxiety. It's not clear exactly why. But it looks from what they know to be related, again, to those nervous systems and brain pathways that are sort of taking everything in all the time. We're just sort of more responsive in certain ways. [00:33:48] And when we go through hard stuff, that can sort of turn into those things.
So that's part of my story. It has been my whole life. I started having stomach aches as a little 8-year-old in third grade. And they couldn't figure out what was wrong. Eventually, they just said stress, which now we know would be called anxiety. That's what was going on. I found that I needed to release any feeling of shame about having that be part of my story.
So if we think about the core parts of who we are, it's being on a continuum where on one side is a struggle and the other side is a superpower. And who we are kind of just neutrally is in the middle. So, for example, I have a more sensitive nervous system. That means as a struggle, I can deal with anxiety. As a superpower, I have a lot of empathy for other people. I'm really good at reading them, at engaging with their emotions, at understanding what's going on with them. [00:34:56]
And so I had always tried to get rid of my anxiety. But I realized the solution wasn't to do that. It was to learn how to move away from that struggle side and toward the superpower side. The first big step for me was saying, you know what, this is okay that I deal with this. This isn't weakness. It's not a spiritual failure. It's not something that I have to hide from other people or just try to get over. It's just sort of this part of who I am that I can actually use for good in some ways.
And I remember praying about it one day and I felt like God was like, "If you're a warrior standing in the middle of a battlefield and someone is shooting at you, what does that mean?" I was like, "Well, it just means that I'm a warrior." And I felt like He was like, Exactly.
So, for anyone who has these struggles, knowing it just means you're a warrior. It just means there are things that you have to fight sometimes. But it doesn't define your identity. [00:35:57] It doesn't define your destiny. It doesn't mean that you are less qualified to be used by God than anyone else. It actually means that you probably have some related gifts and strengths that he can use.
So, that has been freeing for me to just say, you know what, this is just part of my story. We all have those parts. I'm just going to lean into the parts that lead me towards strength instead of struggle.
Laura Dugger: I want to help people understand a part that's misunderstood with depression and anxiety. When well-intentioned people will throw a scripture passage at you, do not be anxious about tomorrow. And they use it in a difficult way. Are you tracking with me? Do you know what I mean?
Holley Gerth: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: What encouragement or clarity would you like to offer for what is truth and what is actually helpful?
Holley Gerth: Yeah. Well, I recently heard a podcast that talked about the benefits of anxiety. [00:36:57] So, people with anxiety can tend to, like I said, have more empathy, understanding different things. But then I thought, "I'm not allowed to be anxious because the Bible says, don't be anxious." And so, I got curious about what that word actually meant.
And when I looked into the biblical definition of anxiety, it is basically fear that comes from intentionally living independently of God's help. It's not the normal stuff we go through, like doubt or feeling distant from Him, or having struggles. It's not that. It's actually an intentional choice where you say, "No, God, I don't want you in my life. I don't want your help."
I mean, so someone's going to know if they're making that choice. I don't want someone to listen and think, Oh, I've had doubts or I'm in a hard place where I don't feel close to God. That's not what it is either. It's that intentional choice.
So, that is very different than biological anxiety, which is just related to our fight or flight response. We are created with a system that has fight or flight for our survival. [00:38:00] Sometimes it's a little overactive, which means we have biological anxiety. But that is not at all the same as biblical anxiety.
And so when you treat biological anxiety as if it is biblical anxiety, that is what causes the guilt and shame. Because biological anxiety is not even able to just fix itself by hearing a scripture. That's not how it works. We're going to need to talk with our doctor, see a counselor, find other resources, maybe figure out how we need to do practical things like eat and sleep. This is mostly about our bodies.
That's what I would say to people who tend to confuse the two or want to tell people with anxiety, just get over it, that there are two distinct kinds. That this person probably feels anxious even when they are praying. So, it is not biblical anxiety that they're experiencing. They're not violating that command to not be anxious. They are experiencing biological anxiety, which is part of being human sometimes. [00:39:09]
And God gets that because He was one for 33 years. He wants us to say, You know what? I don't like how I'm feeling right now. I'm having a hard time. I mean, you look at Psalms, it's full of that. You know, there's a verse that says, "When anxiety was great within me, you brought consolation to my soul."
And so, knowing that we can take that experience to God and He's not going to condemn us. He's going to say, "I get it because I designed humans and I know sometimes this happens. And I will be with you in it. I've also provided a lot of resources. Again, like doctors and counselors and practical helps and supportive people for you to be able to deal with this." But we don't have to carry shame or guilt over it.
And so, instead just saying to that person who's struggling, you are fighting something hard. I am with you in this battle. What would be most helpful to you right now? That is the kind of support that I think actually makes a difference. [00:40:11]
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredibly helpful. Could you just one more time repeat that biblical definition of anxiety?
Holley Gerth: Yeah. So biblical anxiety, when we're told, don't be anxious, that anxiety comes from deliberately saying, I am going to live completely independently from God. I don't want this help. I don't want that connection, which leads to fear. And so, that is more what we're talking about. And that is very different than biological anxiety, which is just our fight or flight response being a little bit overreactive at times.
Laura Dugger: This is incredible to be having this conversation now, because this week, a verse... It's from Deuteronomy 29, and it's just tucked away in the middle of this greater story. But there's someone who is saying unwisely, saying this, I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way. [00:41:10] But then what happens, it says right after that is, they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry.
To me, it was just speaking of times that I want to stubbornly persist in my own way, be independent, not be dependent on the Lord. I think it kind of ties in because that can be a sin issue when He gently brings that up. That is something that can be repented of that's very different from biological anxiety. So thank you for clarifying.
One other thing that you mentioned was that you started experiencing this around age eight, which we're finding that's about the age where depression and anxiety can set in. Is that right?
Holley Gerth: Yes. Again, they don't know exactly why this is. But I remember sitting at a writer's retreat with a group of very successful women whose names you would recognize who write and speak and have these far-reaching ministries. [00:42:10]
And we started telling stories about when we were little girls and several of us said, At age eight I started dealing with anxiety and depression. And I think there's something about that highly creative, sensitive, empathetic, often introverted wiring that just comes with that vulnerability.
So when I have moms describe a kiddo like that to me and say, what do I do? I say, help them understand this is connected to some of their superpowers. So being anxious means they may deal with fear. It also probably means they know exactly when one of their friends is hurting and they are the first to respond.
So helping them understand those two sides of it. Yes, you have this struggle. We're going to help you figure it out. But look at this other side of it, that because you're created this way, you also have some really amazing strengths. [00:43:10]
And so just keeping them out of that shame cycle where they think something's wrong with me to this is just a part of your story. There's one side to it that can be hard. There's another side to it that can be really powerful and beautiful. And we're just going to get you everything that you need to be able to lean more into that strength side.
Laura Dugger: Over 100 of you have given us a five-star rating online. Thank you. Also, thanks to your help sharing these episodes and reposting our content on social media.
The Savvy Sauce has grown to being streamed in all 50 United States and over 100 countries around the world. If you want to partner with us and share the joy of The Savvy Sauce, will you consider becoming a patron today? You can join the club for as little as $2 per month.
And in addition to some fun perks, you will be helping to spread our mission, which is this. We exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled to overflowing. [00:44:11] Please consider joining today by visiting TheSavvySauce.com and clicking on our "Patreon" tab.
Like you had alluded to earlier, this entire message is not just for introverts, but for those who love, lead, or share life with them. And so what can you tell extroverts that will strengthen their relationship with introverts?
Holley Gerth: I'd say one thing is when an introvert is being quiet, it means most of the time they're content. And so I think extroverts can worry, Oh, my introvert is being quiet. Maybe they're upset with me. Maybe they're bored. Maybe they need something that I'm not giving them. Usually, it just means they're content. So that's one little insight.
And then I would say a question that works well for both introverts and extroverts is just going to the people in your life and saying, how can I love you well right now? [00:45:10] Because we naturally tend to love others in the ways that make us feel loved.
But if you're an extrovert introvert pair, then there's not going to be a good match up there. And both people involved can be doing everything they possibly can think of to love the other person well. And if they're different, then it may not be coming across in the way you intend.
You know, extroverts may overwhelm introverts unintentionally and introverts may withdraw to give their extrovert space, which ends up feeling like they don't want to be together. You know, there's just so many opportunities for misunderstanding. And so just saying, Okay, I'm going to set aside what I'm assuming about what makes this person feel loved. And I'm just going to ask what would make you feel loved right now, even if it's really different than what you would say.
And then I think also just giving introverts permission to have that alone time that they need. And knowing that it's essential that most introverts I know try to push themselves past their limits because they don't want other people to think that they're being selfish or uncaring. [00:46:22]
So if you can help your introvert get that time guilt-free, then they are going to be a happier, healthier, more engaged person when you are together. And so there may not be as much quantity as time together, but I can guarantee if you help your introvert get that time, the quality of your time together will increase.
Laura Dugger: Because you've written on this, what would you say it means for each of us to live our powerful purpose?
Holley Gerth: I think living our powerful purpose means understanding who God created us to be and then having the courage to live that out. Again, starting with that self-awareness and then listening to what we learn and taking the steps that God puts on our heart to live that out. And so our purpose is unique to us.
And really, our purpose always comes back to loving God first, loving others as ourselves. [00:47:22] We really are called to love. The beautiful thing is we all just do that a little bit differently.
Laura Dugger: Holley, this book has been incredible. This interview has been incredible, and I'm sure others are feeling the same way. So if somebody wants to follow up, where can they find you online and how can they get their hands on this resource of yours?
Holley Gerth: Yes, I would love to connect. If you go to Holleygirth.com/introverts, that's where you will find all the introvert goodies. Like I mentioned, I have a one-minute quiz on there where you can find out what percent introvert you are because everyone has a little introvert in them.
You can also find out how to get the book. And if you preorder it before September 15th, when it releases, you will also get a free course called Seven Ways to Thrive as an Introvert that I am so excited about, an Introvert Strengths Assessment and the audiobook version of The Powerful Purpose of Introverts Free. [00:48:24]
I think that's an amazing deal. So I'm trying to get everybody to go take advantage of that so they can have it before the book comes out.
Laura Dugger: Wow, those are some incredible perks. And I hope everybody can take advantage of it today. Again, thank you for that resource.
I just have one final question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, Holley, what is your savvy sauce?
Holley Gerth: One super practical thing I'm loving right now is my weighted blanket. So weighted blankets are what they sound like. They have weight and they are naturally calming to our nervous systems and our bodies. So I think especially introverts, but also extroverts with all the things going on in our world right now, a weighted blanket is a great investment. I sleep with mine. I sometimes use it just hanging out on the couch. [00:49:23] But if we can help our bodies in practical ways like that, I think it helps empower us to do the things that matter most to us.
Laura Dugger: That is an awesome savvy sauce. I have heard about weighted blankets, never experienced one before. But when I looked online, there were so many options. If somebody wants to try it out today, do you have a recommended brand or type?
Holley Gerth: I would search for, like if you're on Amazon, Sherpa weighted blanket. So that means it's super soft material. I like that too. So that's my favorite kind. They're really pretty also. That also happens to help you have less anxiety and stress and calm down, which I think in the midst of everything in our world right now, we all need whatever will help with that.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's incredible. Like I said, we'll link to all of this in the show notes and our resources tab. Holley, you've just given such a lovely taste of what your book has to offer. [00:50:26] And I think that you've really encouraged us to embrace who God created each of us uniquely to be. You are genuine and skilled and just this delightful mix of confident and humble. And I'm very appreciative of your time today. So thank you for being my guest.
Holley Gerth: Thank you for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:51:33]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:52:38]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:53:39]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Aug 24, 2020
Monday Aug 24, 2020
*This message includes adult themes and is not intended for little ears*
108. Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
**Transcription Below**
Hebrews 10:23 (NIV) “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.”
Dave Carder serves as Pastor of Counseling Ministries at First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, CA.
His specialty is Adultery Recovery and Prevention for which he has appeared on numerous media outlets including The Oprah Winfrey Network, Discovery Health, and The Learning Channel, The Tony Robbins Passion Project, Ladies Home Journal, USA Today, The Counseling Connection, and various other magazines and journals. He has taught at various universities and seminaries world wide, and has done training for both the US Navy and Army.
He is the author or co-author of Torn Asunder: Recovering from an Extramarital Affair, Close Calls: What Adulterers Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage, and Unlocking Your Family Patterns: Finding Freedom from a Hurtful Past. He holds the Michigan Limited License for Psychology and the California Marital and Family Therapy license, and has graduate degrees in Biblical Literature and Counseling Psychology.
Dave and his wife, Ronnie, have been married for 49 years, and have four adult children and eight grandchildren. More info is available at www.DaveCarder.com
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Anatomy of an Affair by Dave Carder
Torn Asunder Workbook by Dave Carder
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Dave Carder’s Website, Including FREE video series on recovering from extramarital affair
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.
Dave Carter is a pastor, author, and therapist. He's also the best professional I can think of to educate us on infidelity.
Dave is going to share his years of research with us, as he's going to let us know some shocking reasons why couples cheat. But more importantly, he's going to share how redemption is possible. [00:01:18]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dave.
Dave Carder: Well, I'm looking forward to this. I always enjoy these kind of things.
Laura Dugger: You have spent your career educating and counseling couples on marital unfaithfulness. So I'm curious, how did God use your past pain to become your purpose?
Dave Carder: Well, it's a great story. At least on this end of it, it's a great story. So back when I was a youth pastor in the late 70s, pretty fresh out of seminary, my senior pastor ran off with another woman in the church.
This was the second time this has happened to me. I'd only worked with three pastors. So this time I responded a little differently. I immediately drove to the nearest airport, bought a ticket, basically, to a Dallas-Fort Worth area that I had figured out where he had gone, and confronted him.
Stayed a week in a hotel overlooking the U-Haul truck store where he was supposed to bring back the truck, and he never showed up. [00:02:22] I got a call on Saturday from the church back in Ohio saying, "You've got to get home. This place is in a mess," etc.
So basically, I figured out what had happened was I had beat him to that location several thousand miles down there. But before I left, I went down and talked to the guy at the U-Haul truck store and showed him a picture of my pastor, and wrote my phone number and name on the back. And I said, "He's going to bring the truck back here. So when he does, please call me and get an address. I don't care what you tell him, just get an address."
So on Monday morning, back in Ohio, after I'd flown home, I got a phone call from him about 10 o'clock, and he starts whispering. He says, "He's in my office." And I said, "Well, how do you know it's him?" He said, "He's got on the same shirt in the picture as he has on in my office. I know it's him." I said, "I know he's desperate for money. So you tell him you're going to give him a rebate. You need an address to mail the rebate to."
Sure enough, he calls me back about 10 minutes, has an address. I get back on the plane, take a friend with me, fly back to Dallas-Fort Worth, get a rental car, drive the house, knock on the front door, and the single mom in whose home apartment I'd been having Bible studies for two years, for all the boys in the apartment complex, answers the door and screams. [00:03:35]
So to make a long story short, we took our senior pastor, me in the front, to the park and tried to persuade him to come back to his family. He said, "No, he wasn't going to do that." Took him home, back to the house there they were renting, prayed with him.
I started sobbing when my friend said, "Dave, lead us in prayer. I just started sobbing." My friend had to drive us back to the airport, and I cried the whole way there. As we turned into the Hertz rental car, I looked over at my friend Paul, and I said, "Paul, when I get home, I'm going back to graduate school, and I'm going to figure out why guys do this. Because I've had two experiences in a very brief ministry career." That was in '77, and I've been working ever since at trying to figure this out.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. I mean, tragic circumstances to start with, but it sounds like God's really redoing it in your life.
Dave Carder: I would never have chosen to be a therapist or a counselor. [00:04:35]
Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love to focus on your most recent book titled Anatomy of an Affair. I want to begin by this quote of yours, where you say, "My hope is this book will motivate couples to be more alert to potential marital disaster, understand the warning signs of an affair, and help couples strengthen the marriage bond that has kept them together."
So let's discuss each of those components, beginning with being more alert to potential marital disaster. Why do you recommend couples never say this could never happen to them?
Dave Carder: Well, you know, Laura, this is not normal behavior, but it is extremely common behavior. So what happens, especially in the Christian community, when this does occur, it shocks most of the participants. They never believed this could have happened. They never would have. They never would have planned for it. It came out of the blue. [00:05:35]
You know, I was in a research team for a number of years, and we surveyed 4,000 pastors, and the language they used to describe their inappropriate behavior was blindsided, bushwhacked, had the rug pulled out from underneath me, never saw it coming, etc.
So that tells us that there is some kind of a subversive, under-awareness, development, inclination towards having an affair. And you have to be honest, straightforward, forthright, and very self-aware if you're going to protect yourself in this culture.
Actually, the coronavirus experience we're having right now is the perfect petri dish in which affairs can develop. First-time affairs, and I would say all of them, are all about comfort and distraction. Well, I want to tell you, we know additional new stressors in a marriage, like financial reversals, environmental changes, health changes, relationship changes, major career changes. [00:06:36] All of those contribute to the need for comfort and distraction.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So you're saying circumstances like this where couples are under extreme stress, is that when they're likely to cheat?
Dave Carder: Oh yeah, very much so. They don't go looking for this kind of relief, but this is a perfect firestorm, so to speak, because they both need comfort. And oftentimes, during high-stress experiences in a marriage, one runs out of gas to care for the other, or needs to go back to work to keep them afloat, or just needs longer to process what they've been going through.
We don't all process everything at the same speed. So that difference is often in the time period, in the time frame, when these kinds of behaviors begin to happen.
Laura Dugger: Are there any other common reasons that couples do cheat?
Dave Carder: Oh yeah, oh yeah. We know, for instance, that there are certain high-risk periods in your life, in everybody's life, when they are more inclined. [00:07:42] Now, these risk factors I'm going to talk about, they don't make anybody do anything like this. But the big question for the spouse who's been betrayed is, why did you do this?
Well, the answer to that question, why, is usually a cluster of circumstances that eroded the other person's boundaries and made them more vulnerable. It didn't make them do it, it just made them more vulnerable.
So we look for that cluster of circumstances. For instance, about 50% of all first-time affairs in America happen during pregnancy or the first year after delivery. Now, why in the heck is that true?
Well, as you begin to think about it, it makes all the sense in the world. The wife's body changes, there's hormonal changes, she's more tired, she might have a lot of nausea in the first trimester, maybe isn't very interested in sexual activity and lovemaking. Then she's got this little baby afterwards, she's sleep-deprived, and she's trying to balance this baby and maybe a career. [00:08:43]
Hubby can oftentimes feel very neglected. That doesn't mean he went looking, I just said he was more vulnerable to somebody looking for him.
Laura Dugger: With all of your research, just a few follow-up questions. Do you still find that that's true today, that it's more commonly the male spouse, or are those numbers evening out between males and females?
Dave Carder: Basically, depending on what research study and frequency study you're reading, somewhere around 60% to 67% of all males acknowledge this, and somewhere between 50% and 55% of all females in America acknowledge getting involved in this.
Laura Dugger: Then also, just because at the beginning you had talked about seeing this twice in ministry, do you see this vulnerability where people are more susceptible when they are in ministry, or especially in a head pastoral role?
Dave Carder: Well, what I would say I see more of today is when two people in ministry share the same ministry, and they're not married to each other. [00:09:48] So let's just say they serve on the worship team together, or they serve in children's ministry, or the two of them work in homeless encampments, or they do this or that together. So anytime you share a ministry with another person, you share a heart passion that you and your spouse might not share.
Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do ministry outside of your relationship with your spouse, but it does mean that if you're in a ministry that you are really passionate about with somebody else other than your spouse, you really have to be on guard.
Laura Dugger: You give such a balanced approach, because also what I hear you saying is not, if you're in ministry, this will happen to you. You're just sharing what some high-risk times or situations would be. Also, are there any high-risk behaviors that make couples more vulnerable to an affair?
Dave Carder: Oh, absolutely. Part of who we are and part of what happened to us when we first started dating, I just tell you this, this is such a kick. [00:10:52] One of my best friends and colleagues, he's my age, and he just got remarried this last week, okay, to another very good friend of mine.
Now, we're talking people in the high-risk category for coronavirus. I mean, they're above 65, both of them. But they were acting like giddy teenagers whenever they were together. I just got the biggest kick out of it.
Now, that kind of infatuation is what happens when we first start dating and maybe the first couple of years of marriage, etc. But life wears that out and drains that off.
So we often yearn for those kind of times when we have a mood alteration, when we see the person or we can't wait to be with them or we want to get out of this functioning role we have where we try to be efficient and effective. You know, falling in love is totally contrary to being efficient and effective. And it's that kind of stuff you have to go back to. [00:11:52]
But, you know, the good thing... we know, for instance, that one of the risk categories is to get in touch with an old girlfriend or boyfriend. It's huge on Facebook. I mean, it has developed its own class of infidelity. But the point is that kind of affair tells us that it's good news for us who haven't been involved in it but who had a great dating period with their spouse and in the first couple of years it just were dynamic or the first four or five before the kids came.
Because those feelings, those feelings you had for your spouse when you were sleeping together after being newly married, those feelings are still in your brain and you got to go find them. One of my goals in working with every one of my couples is I'm going to help you find that infatuation that you've lost. If you had it, we'll find it. It's still stored in your brain.
Laura Dugger: Let's camp there for a little while. What would the process look like? [00:12:53] How do you help these couples go back to that part in their brain?
Dave Carder: Well, you don't start there because there's been a lot of betrayal and pain in the process. We try to answer the why question through the first half of the therapy process, which includes biographical things.
Now, one of the things I always say, affairs are always about attachment and all affairs began in infancy because infancy is all about attachment to a bonding, to a mother, a primary caregiver.
So we always look at attachment issues in childhood and to primary parents and the nuclear family and the security and everything else in the family because many times affairs go way back. They actually started, the seeds of destruction were sown when they were just a kid.
And then we have to go through the family of origin dynamic and we have to explore the structure that they build into the marriage and the marital style. [00:13:57] We look at the type of marriage because some marriages are more prone to infidelity than others.
Then we look at the satisfaction history. Satisfaction history is one of four histories that are really important to understand about this couple. High level satisfaction, marriages with high level satisfaction can have an affair, but that's the exception and not the normal expectation.
So we look at all those things first and then we go through a full disclosure and a forgiveness process. That's really kind of stage two. Then stage three, we start the reattachment process. Can we put this couple back together well?
And it's at that process that we begin to explore your good history, eight great experiences, kind of reviewing how each of you felt about the beginning of the relationship. Maybe you were missing some of that, being the focus of each other, that narcissistic, egocentric I can't get enough of you feeling that we have when we're newly dating or newly married. [00:15:03] So if that was ever there, we'll find it.
Laura Dugger: How long would you say this process takes from maybe the first time they're walking in and they've just found out about the affair to get to this level of the process that you just explained?
Dave Carder: Well, if this is a first-time affair and it's in one of those categories other than category three, which is a hidden sexual addiction, that's what happens there is going to require more treatment. But at class one, two, four, or five, basically if there's a good history, and we say you don't have to have a lot of good history, but if 20% of your marital history is rated highly satisfying by both of you, simultaneous, in the same time zone and contiguous, it doesn't have any downturns in it, it's pretty high, straight through, 20%. That means one year for every five you will have 92% chance of saving this marriage. [00:16:03]
So you have to see if you can find that and start talking about it and have them sit and share and you got to build skills. So basically I see couples 12 to 15 times, one hour a week, full hour. I tell them, Each one of you are going to give one hour a week to this relationship too.
The wife is going to do an hour's worth of talking exercises with the husband listening, and the husband is going to do an hour worth of work talking exercises with the wife listening. And you're going to do that at home in three 20-minute segments. That way each of you will give an hour and I'll give an hour.
And I'm not going to do this if you don't do it. This is your marriage. I got my own marriage to worry about. I don't need yours to worry about. So you need to put an equal amount of effort in. We put three hours a week in it, 45 hours later we usually have a pretty good outcome.
Laura Dugger: Wow. You're such an expert in all of this that I have to slow it down and go back. There's so many follow-up questions.
Dave Carder: I can talk a lot about this.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I find it to be fascinating. [00:17:04] You had mentioned that certain couples are maybe more predisposed to cheat. I can't remember how you worded it, but what type of couples do you mean?
Dave Carder: Well, there's all kinds of factors in there, but I'll give you a couple. For instance, we know there's personality disorders that are based on attachment injuries, like a borderline personality or a narcissistic personality disorder. Those kinds of people are going to have to work through some individual issues if they're ever really going to save this marriage, turn it around, and make it good.
We have people, especially today, they come in, men and women, who are involved in pornography use and have been exposed to it since a child. Or they're adults who have a molest history that they've never really identified. There's this sexual compulsivity.
Sometimes it's just suddenly surfaced again. Sometimes it's comorbid with alcoholism or prescription drug use or pot smoking. [00:18:06] So those kinds of other struggles don't really give a clean presentation. I mean, there's going to be some individual work required.
Laura Dugger: Okay, and then you had also mentioned a type three affair. So what are all of the categories of affairs?
Dave Carder: Okay, we often talk about a one-night stand. The single experience or maybe the single weekend experience takes place at a conference or maybe at a business training meeting or something of that nature.
Well, let me give you an illustration. The first four classes of sexual betrayal are all found in the Bible. That's what I love about the Bible. The Bible is really a great tutorial on human nature.
So the biblical illustration there is David and Bathsheba. They had no relationship. They'd never dated. They'd never seen each other, never talked before. There was just this sexual experience and that was it. That's kind of what happens in that. [00:19:06] Alcohol is often a part of that. People drink too much wine at a supper meal and go to each other's rooms and get in trouble.
The class two is where there's emotional involvement. They have been friends for a long period of time. They might be colleagues at work. So they work together, serve together. You know, the literature often talks about the workaday wife. She often knows more about this man's life and his practices and his skill set than the wife does. So this friendship can develop over years and be in existence for many years prior to it ever being sexual. So we even have biblical illustrations of that kind of stuff.
But class three has nothing to do with the marriage. In other words, the spouse who acted out sexually would have done this no matter who they married. This is not about the marriage. This is about an individual issue. And so we say that person needs to develop sobriety and they need to have some individual therapy, figuring out the contributing factors to this. [00:20:10]
I will often say to my guys, "You know, as we begin to talk about this and we talk about earliest sexual exposure and memories and fantasies... and I don't do the individual work much at all. I usually try to send them somewhere else because I don't want to work harder than I'm already working with couples, more couples.
So they often will go to an intensive or something like that and they'll figure out this is all about me. I've been doing this for 20 years. I often say to him, you know, you never really had a chance. And I asked him if they have a son, if they've ever had a son or they have a grandson. So your grandson's five years old.
Okay, well, next time you will see your little grandson playing somewhere in a playground with other kids, you go watch him. You go watch him and think about that little boy being exposed to sexual activity. That little boy sitting at the base of his mother's hotel bed while she turns tricks right there above him. [00:21:11] Or you watch him and think about him sitting in front of pornography that he's found in the bathroom.
Sometimes those little kids just don't have much chance. And sex becomes the source of comfort. But it's compulsive. And it's not about the wife. It's not about the wife being a better lover. It's not about her being more sexual. It's not about her initiating. It's not about her. She didn't cause it, can't change it, and she won't cure it no matter what she does. So that's class three.
Class four is what we call an add-on affair. An add-on affair happens in good marriages. But it meets a singular need that this individual has that can't or hasn't been met in the marriage. Now, I'm going to give you an illustration here in just a second of that. But many times it is a cluster of circumstances and timeframes and health issues and relationship changes and job demands and everything else. [00:22:20]
It kind of brings this marriage down, so to speak. It's an add-on affair. But it's not a relationship in the sense of sneaking off with each other, phone calling, texting each other all the time, buying gifts, going to lunch together.
This add-on affair has very narrow practices. They only see each other in the shared environment that they both enjoy. They never call during the week. They never check in. They might see each other once a month at a volleyball thing.
For instance, I'm not a dancer. My wife loves to dance. But one thing I'm not going to do, I'm not going to encourage her to go to a dance club. And we took dance lessons on cruises. I mean, maybe eight or ten cruises. And it got to a place where it was ruining my cruise. I'd get sick at this. I just can't do this. So I dread going.
That would be the kind of illustration. She'd get involved, maybe dancing with somebody, dance partner, etc. [00:23:21] Over time, they build this relationship, practicing dance, etc, and pretty soon, it becomes inappropriate. So that's an illustration of that.
The last class is an emotional friendship with old girlfriends or boyfriends. That only became available in 1995. So when you go back on the internet and find them. The thing about that, it's important to remember, we never, ever forget.
Adolescent music, sports teams, great experiences in high school and college, dances. In fact, unless you were promiscuous, most of us could list every person we ever kissed really passionately. You don't forget. And so this gets triggered in your brain. All that infatuation is stored in your brain. And it'll get triggered.
I have this saying we say all the time. [00:24:21] If you stay in touch with an old girlfriend or boyfriend for 30 days via the internet, you will begin to think you married the wrong person because your spouse doesn't make you feel like this. And if you stay in touch with them another 30 days, you'll begin to try to find ways to meet with them and have sex with them. It's 0 to 60.
Laura Dugger: Wow. So that shows the danger so clearly. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Learn more at their website, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. You said that there are Bible stories that illustrate different ones. David and Bathsheba. What are some other examples?
Dave Carder: Well, the sexual addiction one is Eli's sons. [00:26:21] They chose women out of the line to the temple where they're going to offer sacrifice. They took them into another tent, had sex with them, and turned them over. There was no relationship.
And God told Eli, He said, "You've got to stop those boys from doing that." And he wouldn't. So God killed the two sons, and God killed Eli prematurely. Then I was at a pastor's conference presenting how good marriages... this add-on concept, where good marriages can have infidelity. I said, "I don't have a biblical illustration of this."
One of the pastors, four or five hundred of them in South Florida said, "How about Hagar and Abraham?" That met a need. Abraham built a great relationship with her to the point that he would not kick her out of the home until God actually intervened. But when little Isaac was born, his 13-year-old half-brother knew at that point life forever was different for him.
And he started picking on his little baby brother of a day or two. Sarah saw it and said, "It's either her or me. Get her out of here." [00:27:24] So Abraham finally did. And those two brothers, half-brothers, had been fighting, and they're since fighting for 4,000 years. And they will keep fighting. They just will.
See, I think I left one of them out. Class two is Samson and Delilah. They never had sex, as far as we know. But the picture we have of him in Scripture is his head is in her lap. But he is so addicted to her, that even though he knows she's trying to kill him, he cannot stay away from her. And he keeps going back to her. And that's the class two, the strong emotional attachment.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible to hear it, even in biblical times. What other satisfaction ratings are important?
Dave Carder: Well, there's four histories. We need to know their personal biographical story in somewhat detail. Looking for abuse, which would create an elevated need for comfort and demand, and distraction. We want to look at their family of origin history. [00:28:29]
We don't know why, but infidelity runs in family trees. It is a strong indicator that you are very vulnerable. I don't care anything about you being a Christian or anything else. If your dad or mom had affairs, you are predisposed. There's all kinds of emotional reasons for that, if we had time to explore.
Then the third one is their satisfaction history together, which is kind of how happy we were.
Then the fourth component that we want to look at is, what does their marriage over time look like? We're not talking about satisfaction, but we're talking about time together. Have they been able to put each other first? Have they been able to teach their kids that your mom or your dad is more important than you are in a certain sense of the word? You're going to leave here in 20 years, but we're going to hang out for the next 60. [00:29:26] So we've got to make this thing work.
I mean, has that been the emphasis? And what has been that attachment level that they put together between the two of them? So those histories are all real important.
Laura Dugger: If you've been around The Savvy Sauce for a while, you have heard our invitation to join our support team of patrons. Patreon is a platform created for the community to financially support people who offer creative content.
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It's super easy to join with only a few clicks. As you visit thesavvysauce.com, click the "Patreon" tab, and then click "Join Patron here". We hope you're rewarded for your generosity. Now that we've covered a lot of the dangers and high-risk opportunities, on the other side, what safeguards should be put in place to protect our marriages from inappropriate relationships? [00:30:35]
Dave Carder: Well, this is a hard thing. Let me kind of identify a few of those. When we get ready to try to reattach couples, this is the process we go through.
The first exercise in that process is a whole series of sensate focus exercises. I often say to my couples, we're going to put you back together exactly like you found each other and put together yourselves in the first place, okay? So I'll often say to the wife, Let's say it's Betty and Tom. I'm just making that up. So I say, "Betty, if Tom had grabbed your breast on the first date, you probably never would have seen him again." "Oh, yeah, I never would have seen him again."
"But over time, you started holding hands and you started snuggling up together. He put his arm around your shoulders. You might even, as you walked the boardwalk, stuck your hand in his back pocket as you walked down the boardwalk. You became more familiar with each other physically and you became more familiar with each other emotionally, sharing stories, information you never shared with anybody else." [00:31:38] Well, that's a very important set of exercises.
Masters and Johnson and Kaplan and Berkeley Sex Therapy Group have all given us a lot of touching exercises that build attachment. They're called sensate focus exercises. My couples have to do about 30 days of those while they're doing other exercises, 20 minutes a pop.
In the book, the Berkeley Sex Therapy script list that I use, with their permission, that helps you kind of qualify the kind of touching exercises you're doing together. I mean, this is work, okay? But it's also a lot of fun because sensate focus exercises calm anxiety, lower anger, and build attachment, all simultaneous.
So, the next set of exercises is the one you're going to identify the eight great experiences in your relationship, the eight great memories. You have eight best memories you have during the dating period and even in the marriage. [00:32:41] Each one of you lists a private list of eight items. Do it in pencil because you'll be erasing them. You only get eight.
And then you merge that list of most happily married couples. And remember, couples have some level of satisfaction and happiness or they wouldn't come to a therapist after an affair has happened. They have some hope in saving this.
So, we take a look at those eight greats and the ones that match, we put those down first and then she gets... let's say they have three. She gets four, he gets five, six, seven, eight, finish it off.
That list of eight shared experiences needs to be replicated, repeated, same season of the year, same event, same experience as much as possible as the original. This is the best old stuff you have between the two of them. So, we build that eight greats.
The next one is love languages. Most people are familiar with love languages. Finding out how best to show love to your spouse. [00:33:42]
Then the fourth reattachment exercise is what we call a compliment prayer list that comes directly out of research. Two behavioral psychologists, PhD husband, and wife team spent 30 years on this exercise measuring it across cultures, genders, ages. It's highly effective. And it's a behavior modification process.
So, I added a prayer exercise to it. And so, every day for 30 days, you find something you appreciate about your spouse, a behavior, a comment, something they do, how they look, a value they have. I don't care what it is. And you put it down and then you list two or three sentences about why you like that and why it's important to you. And you write it in a notebook. And every night, you thank God in your spouse's presence how much you like this quality about your spouse and what it means to you. You do 30 straight days. [00:34:40]
That behavior modification couple that did this work, they did pre, post, six-month, and five-year follow-ups. This is an amazing game-changer. Most of us are starved for more admiration and affirmation. And that's what this provides. So, those are the first four. I could go on and on.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. It's not only practical, but you're talking about inviting in the power of God and the Holy Spirit into this. I can just imagine hearts being softened and couples turning toward each other in this process.
Dave Carder: That's a good point because you got to remember this couple has already done at least 20 knee-to-knee exercises for 20 minutes a pop. One talking, the other listening. They've also already done 20 non-sexual touching exercises where one gives and the other receives for 20 minutes. [00:35:41]
So, many therapists get in trouble because they try to do these attachment exercises before they've done all the other work. You don't start there. That's the end. That's the icing on the cake, so to speak.
Laura Dugger: Backing it up a little bit, for any couples wondering, what are some warning signs that there may be marital unfaithfulness in our spouse?
Dave Carder: Well, the first thing I would look for, and this is what I tell my gals or guys that call me on the phone afraid their spouse is having an affair. Okay, so when were you first afraid? So, they choose a point in time, a date, and time.
I say, "Okay, you go back two years, and you find all the major stressors. I want you to make a list of all the major stressors that your spouse has gone through in those two years period." Financial reversals, maybe a death or two, maybe a move that you went through, a career job or threatening experience, a financial reversal, bankruptcy, lost a house. [00:36:42]
Just make a list of all the stressors. And if you come up with more than five, then you probably have a legitimate concern because all of us going through those kinds of things need comfort and distraction. And it's just so easy to listen to or learn to lean on somebody else when you're feeling that huge need yourself. That's a big part. So, what kind of story are they bringing to this concern? That's a big part of what I want to know.
Then also, the person will often begin to have motivation for all kinds of changes. They'll start working out or they'll start dressing differently or they'll start doing their hair differently. You'll just see behavioral changes. You'll sense a greater change in energy sometimes in people doing this.
Now, if your spouse really decides to whip themselves into shape, don't be accusing them of having a girlfriend or a boyfriend. That gets you into trouble, okay? [00:37:46] You might just sense a kind of a distraction. Maybe they're on the phone more than usual. Maybe they're texting more commonly.
This texting thing is amazing. Habitual texting is a mood-altering experience. I've had clients who've actually been fired from jobs not because they had any erotic textual exchange but because they had too much textual exchange with co-workers and it was happening while they were driving and it began to interfere with their production, so they got fired. So, any kind of a mood-altering experience like that can be very dangerous.
And then I say to my gals, especially the young moms, if you really suspect that your husband's having an affair, you get two choices. You choose which one you want. If you would do something different, if you knew he was having an affair, then you ought to pursue it with everything you have, including hiring a private investigator. [00:38:50]
If, on the other hand, you could not do anything different than you're doing now because you might have a little baby, you might have small children at home, you might not have a career that you could fall back upon, you couldn't do anything, then I would tell you don't do anything. Because most affairs flame out in 18 to 24 months.
Nobody can keep up that kind of passionate exchange without having all kinds of emotional and financial and personal upheaval in their life. They just can't do it.
Laura Dugger: And so you're saying eventually...
Dave Carder: Yeah. Use the next few months to get yourself ready to leave if you need to leave. So, if you can't do anything... And that happens all the time when some gals, they just can't think of a little baby, they don't have parental support, maybe they don't have any family out here, maybe they don't have a career, they don't work right now, they're a stay-at-home mom with two or three little ones. Okay, get yourself ready. Don't do anything right now. [00:39:52]
Laura Dugger: Then for the couple that maybe is walking through this painful process currently, what hope would you like to offer them?
Dave Carder: I would say this to them. Don't stay married out of duty or obligation. I would say to the husband, if he's had the affair, don't stay married to her if she can't forgive you. Living with a spouse who can't forgive is like pretty hellacious living.
So what needs to happen, if you're going to stay together, you need to re-choose each other. And you need to be with each other because you want to be with each other. Sex breaks a marriage. Illicit sex does. And there's never a statute of limitations on when, as I look at the wife, you'll have to decide. You don't have to decide in 90 days. But there's no statute of limitations. Maybe two years here, after giving this your best shot, it still can't seem to work or you just don't think your spouse is being truthful and they're still lying, well, then maybe then you need to consider another option. [00:40:55]
But I say to both of my couples. You need to give this your best shot because you need to look in your children's eyes when they're at their life's greatest moments, graduations, marriages, birth of your grandkids, etc. and you need to be able to look at them in the eye and say, "We gave it everything we had before we leave."
But if you stay married out of duty or obligation or stay married because you think you should, you should pay for this, etc., all you're going to do is teach your kids how to have a really crappy marriage. And we got a lot of those running around.
Laura Dugger: Dave, let's address all of the couples, both those who have or have not experienced an affair. How can everyone listening strengthen their marriage bond?
Dave Carder: The best marriages are the ones who practice the kind of practices that you would practice if you were having an affair. So you would see each other at different times of the day. [00:41:57] You would spend money on your marriage and you would go do things that you normally wouldn't do.
You would leave your kids at times with a very clear instruction that mom and dad need time like this together. You would show affection to each other in front of your children. People having an affair don't give a rip who's around them. They're easy to find. I used to take MFTs to Starbucks and we'd try and figure out who was having an affair at Starbucks. I mean, they're easy to find.
So you need to do all the things that people look for when they're having an affair. And we often say you have to redeem those bad experiences, redeem them, and practice them in your relationship. Most couples, most married couples, the sexual relationship happens in the dark, lights out, doors locked, after the kids are asleep, between the sheets, same way all the time. [00:42:56]
But if you started meeting at a hotel once or twice a week in an afternoon for a lunch and a couple of hours together in the room, I want to tell you, you would have a much better life together. And don't tell me this: "We don't have the money for that kind of thing. I have never heard anybody say, "I'm not going to keep the affair going. I ran out of money. They never ran out of money keeping the affair going. So you'll have money for that if you want to.
Laura Dugger: Wow, you have given us so much to think about. If listeners want to follow up online or make an appointment with you, if that's possible, or even look into your resources, where would you direct them?
Dave Carder: Well, they can make an appointment, they can go to davecarder.com and they can book an appointment. If they are struggling with something like this, they can go to restoreus.net. I've put most of this, the work I do with couples in a 15... I think it's 15 set video that you can do in the privacy of your own home if you want to. [00:44:04] Same stuff I do with my couples. I'm happy to help any way I can. I love doing this work.
Laura Dugger: Well, and in case it's someone's first time listening, we always link to all of these resources in both our show notes and on our "Resources" tab of the website. So we'll make it easy for you to find Dave and his resources.
We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Dave, what is your savvy sauce?
Dave Carder: If I had one thing to say to couples in this day and age, I would say spend money on your marriage. My wife and I made a goal. We drove old cars so we could build expensive memories. And we did. And at this stage of our life, we are thrilled that we did this. We have spent money on this relationship in unbelievable ways. [00:45:06]
Laura Dugger: That is such a wise word. As a therapist, I remember learning about your resources back in graduate school. And then a few years after graduate school, I was able to sit under your teaching live in San Diego. And now it was such a joy to get to learn more from you again today. So you are a natural teacher and I'm very grateful for you and your contribution to marriages. So thank you for being my guest today.
Dave Carder: Well, it's my privilege. We can get the word out. Marriage is still alive and wonderful. And it does fulfill your deepest need for attachment to another human being. But you have to work at it. It's not spontaneous and it doesn't always stay together without attention.
Laura Dugger: Amen.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:46:07] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:47:10] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. [00:48:09] The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:49:10]
Monday Aug 17, 2020
Monday Aug 17, 2020
107. Communication and Healthy Conflict Resolution with Kelley Gray
**Transcription Below**
1 Corinthians 13:7 (AMP) “Love bears all things [regardless of what comes], believes all things [looking for the best in each one], hopes all things [remaining steadfast during difficult times], endures all things [without weakening].”
Kelley Gray is a Clinical Intensive therapist at Restoring the Soul. She is a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Nationally Certified Counselor. For 19 years it has been her life's work and passion to meet people in their most difficult life challenges. She cares deeply about empowering, educating and facilitating healing in individuals and couples. She has two daughters, 11 and 7, and has been married to Brian for 16 years.
Counselor Kelley Gray’s Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: One of our sponsors for today is Samaritan Ministries. Samaritan Ministries offers a biblical solution to healthcare, connecting you with other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
One of our sponsors today is Clearly Filtered. Discover their options online at ClearlyFiltered.com/SavvyWaterFilters. Each customer can enter SAVVYWATERFILTERS at checkout to receive 20% off your first purchase.
Communication is usually at the top of the list for relationship issues, and today, counselor Kelley Gray is our guest to share such a unique and positive perspective on both proactive and reactive healthy communication. [00:01:18] Then she'll also share super practical ways to handle conflict resolution well.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kelley.
Kelley Gray: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be with you this morning.
Laura Dugger: Will you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and the work that you get to do?
Kelley Gray: Sure. It has been nearly 20 years now that I have been a psychotherapist in the Denver area. And just in this last year, I have started doing intensive psychotherapy work at a wonderful organization called Restoring the Soul.
Laura Dugger: I love that you guys have a podcast. I've listened to you there and have just heard wonderful things about your work. I know that you work with so many couples. So how do you teach spouses to communicate effectively?
Kelley Gray: There are just so many things that I could share there, but I feel like encouraging couples to really not try to communicate when they are feeling too upset or too overwhelmed. [00:02:30] They are just not going to be their real truest versions of themselves when they are really angry.
We are all prone to say things that we don't mean when we are just feeling really upset. So if your heart is racing, if you are sweating, if you just feel really overwhelmed by emotions, I make a plan with couples to make a plan in advance and say, "When we start feeling that way, we are just not going to talk about this right now. We are going to put it off until later, not sweep it under the rug, but put it off until later."
Then one of my other favorite general principles is don't be defensive. But there is a lot of work that goes into not being defensive. It is really hard to not be defensive. But the more people can work on laying down their defensiveness, the better.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful to even think. That is our red flag is maybe when we are having those physiological responses. That is advice on the reactionary side. [00:03:30] What about being proactive with communication? Do you have any tips there?
Kelley Gray: Yeah. I love to prescribe daily check-ins for couples towards the end of the day. And people with young kids have to be really creative. Sometimes a daily check-in can happen over a text or a phone call when one of them is driving home, if everything is kind of crazy when a spouse walks in the door.
But I really value just a quick daily check-in. It really doesn't have to be more than 10 minutes or so. But to just regularly connect in that way.
But then a little bit longer check-ins weekly. And then to have things that they do seasonally or annually to stay connected. But to just have a really intentional plan around that.
I would also say for them to try hard to add in positivity. Things like appreciation, thank yous, I love you, I'm grateful for X. [00:04:34] Just because the way the human mind, the way we are wired is we are just going to focus more on our pain and on our problems.
It takes extra effort to refocus and say, Okay, what do I value about this person? What have they done for me that I can show gratitude for? And that just greases the wheels for when you have hurts to talk about or patterns to talk about that you want to see positive change in.
Whereas if you have been focusing on the negatives, you just don't have as open of a customer, I like to say. Like their ears are kind of closed because they think, "Here's my partner just complaining about something else again."
Laura Dugger: And so with this positivity, how can people start to grow in that? Because I think that's so wise.
Kelley Gray: Intentionally thinking about your relationship outside of the heat of the moment of conflict. [00:05:39] Because oftentimes we're just so busy in our little lives and doing the next daily thing. And then the negative is what gets our attention and then we want to address it. But then we've kind of got a habit of negativity going on.
So I would really encourage couples to spend time even when they're apart or driving around. Or some people are journalers or they just kind of like to keep a log of what they need to do that day. I say put it on your to-do list, put it in your journal to spend a little bit of time just thinking about what is positive about your spouse. Then force yourself to say it to them. We're all so different.
Some people are just naturally positive and will be more effusive with those things. So for the people who this doesn't come quite as naturally for, like it feels kind of vulnerable or it doesn't feel as authentic, I would so strongly encourage them just to experiment with it and just try to make themselves say.
And they don't have to gush. It absolutely has to be something true. [00:06:39] You're not making up something about your spouse. But it can just be some work to cultivate it and to try to create a new habit of positivity.
Laura Dugger: One of the reasons that I love so much what you're saying is this positivity and encouragement actually will be a stronger motivator than criticism.
Kelley Gray: Absolutely. It really does create this economy in your marriage of we build each other up. We try really hard to say yes to the other person's dreams and wishes and desires.
We're not putting ourselves aside. Of course, you have to hold on to yourself and the other person at the same time, make room for both of you.
But positivity really does make the other person so much more open when you have issues with them or complaints or you need something to change or be different or you're unhappy with some aspect of the marriage. They are not as likely to think, well, they're just mad at me all the time. So I don't even know what to pay attention to. [00:07:42]
Laura Dugger: Yes. Is there any specific homework that you do assign to grow in communication?
Kelley Gray: I really like couples to think intentionally through their patterns and just kind of notice what are the elements that are in place when they are feeling more connected. Okay, we do better on Saturday mornings or we do better on Sunday afternoons or we do really poorly if we have not had alone time together in a long time.
I've had so many women tell me that they've noticed a pattern of they get really mad at their husbands or they'll be feeling really negatively about them. But then if they spend some extended time with them, they say, "Oh, I forgot how much I really do like you. I forgot that I picked you for great reasons. But just the daily stress was kind of getting us down."
So I really encourage couples to try to take a few steps back and just try to see their natural patterns for when they are more connected or less connected. [00:08:48] I don't have a one-size-fits-all like a "you must do a weekly date night". That means different things to different people and it looks different based on what season of life you're in.
So when I'm working with people as a therapist, we kind of cultivate, we brainstorm and flesh that out together. But for couples listening, I would just say you guys get to... you get to kind of make it up and say, I would love a mid-morning phone call from you if that works," or, you know, a nap time phone call if you've got little kids at home. Or I would love for us to go away one weekend a month and we're so busy that I'll just catch you then and we'll catch up then.
So I really do like to tell people that you don't have to be like other couples. You just really have to talk with each other and see what patterns you would like to develop with one another to provide good maintenance and upkeep on your connection.
Laura Dugger: I appreciate how individualized that is, because we often hear we need to be a student of our spouse. [00:09:49] But what do you see as some ways that we can actually do this in order to be more loving in our communication and respectful in our conflict resolution?
Kelley Gray: Absolutely. I love that question so much. A couple of things.
One, really try to spend time thinking about what life is like from your spouse's, your partner's perspective. Think about what they've been through in their lives, their childhood, the impact of their early experiences upon them. Really spend time thinking about their temperament and how they're very naturally hardwired.
Then really think about what they're like when they are overwhelmed. Because I know even for me in my marriage, and I'm a therapist, I'm supposed to know better, but I have really judged my husband for different ways that he responds when he's under stress. And I'm quite sure he has judged me back for the ways I respond under stress. [00:10:52]
But those are such very ingrained responses. Absolutely, we're all responsible for what we do under stress. There's no excuse for abusive or toxic behavior when we are under stress.
But if we can just have a compassionate understanding that our spouse is working with a very specific little nervous system that has never existed before in all of time or space or history, then it can soften us towards their responses and maybe we can hang in there a little bit better with them.
Laura Dugger: Will you say more about that? I think you put that in such a unique way. I just want to hear more.
Kelley Gray: Well, we have some pretty natural ways of responding. In the psych world, we would say a person is either prone to move away from and withdraw during conflict, or they will move toward and kind of cling to the person that they're having conflict with, or they will move against and create more friction. [00:11:52] They'll fight the person that they are in conflict with.
Those are so automatic that if a husband is naturally withdrawing and the wife is more of a move against, kind of fight it out, let's stick in here and let's duke this out, let's figure this out, not physically duke it out, but let's just keep on going with talking about it and hashing through it all. If they were to be able to be more compassionate for the other person's wiring and make a little bit more room for the other person's natural responses.
Unfortunately for the more aggressive spouse, that would absolutely mean backing off, standing down, taking a break. And it doesn't mean that the move against person is wrong or bad. It's just that if they were to understand how overwhelmed the withdrawn person is, they would really compassionately understand that that person is deeply stressed out and they need some time to self-soothe and self-regulate. [00:12:51]
Also, they would understand they really might not be talking about what the actual real issue is. That so often letting a little cool down happen where the emotions are not as high anymore and the withdrawn person is able to feel more centered and emotionally available and their ears are more open and the more aggressive person is able to feel more centered and grounded and more open to the more withdrawing person, they'll just find their way forward so much faster.
Actually, it is so much more efficient to take a little break than if the aggressive person had had their way and just been able to kind of push through and let's do this conflict.
Laura Dugger: So well said. From your experience, do you often see couples that have the same posture in conflict?
Kelley Gray: Yes. And I don't want to say it's funny because it's not funny. But it's kind of... I mean, in a way it's nice because they can understand what the other person's wanting. So, yeah, when I have two aggressives, I just put rules on both of them because they will end up saying things out of their emotions that they are apologizing for later on. [00:14:02]
Then if I have two withdrawing types, I have to really coach and counsel them to not just let the moment pass and go back to normal again. But to bring back to the table in the light, in the calm, with love, present, what it was that went wrong between them that causes them to withdraw from each other. That's the toughest trick for the withdrawing types.
Then for the more clinging types, the move toward, they can feel so scared of feeling disconnected that they need some encouragement around, No, you do get to own what upset you or what felt yucky to you and trust that it's not going to ruin your relationship. That actually you'll feel stronger and you'll feel more connected on the other side of having dealt with your issues.
Whereas if you're just kind of clinging to each other and you have these problems and then you try to stuff them down because you're so scared it's going to hurt your intimacy, those people can get really hostile towards each other and really passive-aggressive towards each other. [00:15:07]
So nobody gets out. We all have some ineffective strategy. We're applying just naturally to our conflicts.
Laura Dugger: Yes. But I feel like all of this that you're saying has such biblical basis. I have to acknowledge this. This morning my quiet time was in 1 Thessalonians 5. And there's so much that you're saying... First of all, it's talking about encourage one another and build each other up. And that goes back to your positivity.
Later, under a section of Christian conduct, it's not giving a one-size-fits-all. It tells us how to encourage the timid or in the amplified version, it says to admonish those who are out of line. And so that's different from encouraging the timid or helping the weak. And that's exactly what you're saying is each one will require something different.
Kelley Gray: Yes. Oh, that's really cool that you read that this morning. It really does resonate. [00:16:07]
Laura Dugger: So, Kelley, what would you say overall is your view on conflict in marriage?
Kelley Gray: No one can escape it. And it is absolutely essential to deal with your stuff. One of my many metaphors for it is that in a busy, bustling, vibrant, lively household, it makes trash. It generates trash. And it makes messes and things get dirty and have to be cleaned. We have to do maintenance and we have to do cleaning work in order to keep an environment feeling good and healthy.
So in a marriage, two people doing life together, they generally want that to feel good and connected and positive and joyful. But they are just going to have issues with each other. They're going to hurt each other. [00:17:08] They're going to step on old wounds or old negative messages that one of the partners or both, you know, believe about themselves. They're going to step on each other's boundaries. They're going to overstep. They're not going to have the exact same value on money or parenting or leisure time or family of origin stuff.
And when that causes negative feelings to build up or hurts or disconnection, couples have got to be willing to sit down and talk that out and hash through that and each share their side of what they're feeling and try really hard to make a lot of room for the other person to really feel seen and heard and not hurry back to their own perspective and trying to make their own perspective the only one that gets airtime.
When couples do that heavy lifting, when they carry those trash bags out of the kitchen, they gather up the trash from around the house and they carry it out and they put it on the curb. [00:18:12] They might have rather been doing something else more fun, like watching a show or playing a game or something. But if they choose to sit down and do that chore, really, of dealing with the negative and processing through it, their house and the relationship between them just feels so much lighter and airier and brighter. And there is so much more room for true and real joy.
I've just had so many people who have come in in a pattern of stuffing and avoiding their problems because they just want to be happy and they just want to have fun. But things have completely screeched to a grinding halt and nothing is fun and nothing feels happy anymore. To have them just proclaim and exclaim how much freer and happier they feel after having taken out the trash and just wishing that they would have been doing it all along and fully committing to a lifestyle of just dealing with the junk when it needs to come up. Because, man, the years as they go by, it just feels so much better when you have that regular practice of taking out the trash that accumulates between you. [00:19:14]
Laura Dugger: Oh, my goodness, that is such a great analogy. And I love that you're just normalizing conflict for couples. I know we kind of touched on, Okay, if they're both aggressive or they're both withdrawn, how would that look different for the couples who approach things so differently from their spouse?
Kelley Gray: I have a lot of favorite marriage gurus and researchers. John Gottman from the Gottman Institute says that similarities are money in the bank and differences are a bit more work. I don't want that to be overly discouraging to spouses because we all marry people who possess some trait that we really need to develop in ourselves or some trait that is going to really refine and develop us.
It really is God's pretty incredible plan for continuing to refine us and grow us into Christ's likeness. [00:20:15] So don't be too discouraged about it. But you really do have to do a lot of the empathy work and the understanding work and understanding that temperament of the other person and really helping educate the other person on you, what conflict feels like to you and what you need.
So you kind of have two conversations. One is how we do conflict, how we make it most productive, how we keep it safe and don't harm each other with our words or our actions. So that meta conversation of how we do conflict will have to kind of be an open conversation because then the second conversation is, you know, the thing you're struggling over.
And sometimes that's how we load the dishwasher or what kitchen counter towel we want to pick or what school the kids are going to go to or where we're going to go on vacation or sex or money or whatever. That's the secondary thing. But people who are just very different really have to work on the primary issue of talking about how they do conflict.
So I have... I call it the autopsy for after they have worked through an issue. [00:21:17] I want one brave person and a couple to go back and say, Okay, how did I do? What could I have done differently to make that more productive? Did I do anything that got in the way, wasted time, or hurt your feelings? And you can kind of autopsy how you did the conflict.
And I say brave person because most people say, "We got through that. I don't want to go back to it again." But it's like car maintenance. It just runs way better if you just do the tune-ups.
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Laura Dugger: You've done an incredible job laying this foundation that conflict is normal and it can be healthy. But are there any harmful ways to engage in conflict resolution?
Kelley Gray: Yes. I really do teach people a lot about being emotionally flooded or overwhelmed. [00:24:18] They're basically in fight or flight. Their sympathetic nervous system has gone into pure survival mode. We call it the reptilian brain because we're really able to strike and run away really, really well. We're awesome at that when we are flooded.
I teach people to be very, very disinterested in fighting from a flooded state or fighting with a flooded person. I say you can also go and corner a wild animal and see what happens because that is what's going to happen inside of your spouse if you pursue and push when they're already overwhelmed. Because our brains are literally not able to think clearly. We are not in touch with our values when we are in fight or flight mode. It is just the body's attempt to take over and survive.
The problem is, is that it's the year 2020 and it's usually some idea or emotional reality or attachment wound or experience that we are fighting about. [00:25:24] We're not fighting for our physical safety, usually. And so you don't need all that big physiological response.
What you really need in marriage conflict is a calm, grounded, centered self that can say, "Here's what I need. Here is what really, really hurts me. I just need you to understand that we need a level-headed, grounded person who's in touch with their love for the other person to be able to engage in the conflict."
But it is extremely tempting to fight when you are upset. It's extremely tempting. We will say and do our most harmful things when we are flooded, because the human version of the wild animals, fangs, and claws are usually as hurtful of words as we can throw at the other person.
I mean, sometimes people say things that are true that they've been holding back. But very often people are just saying something that they know will create the same level of hurt inside of the other person. We're looking for that other person to mirror how hurt we feel. [00:26:30] And when everything calms down from that, the regret is just profound at what has been said.
So I will tell couples when they're flooded, I am not invalidating their pain. I'm just saying that they're extremely vulnerable to do something that they will really regret. So I just call that the red zone. I say whatever the true trigger or emotion is, is super valid and important but it cannot get discussed right then.
And so I really have some pretty hard rules that I put on people where I say, "If you are really upset and overwhelmed, stop. Don't talk. Don't touch. Don't block the other person." People grab people's phones away. No, no, no. Don't enter each other's space. Really just give clearance to the other person. A respectful clearance.
It does not mean that you're hurt or pain or complaint is not valid. It just means that you're going to even be more respectful of yourself and share it at a time when it can actually be heard and dealt with.
Laura Dugger: So what I'm hearing you say then is we can be more productive in this conflict resolution if we recognize when we're flooded and know that's when to take a break. [00:27:40] And then also know that we need to re-engage and discuss all of these things. But it will be better for everyone if we take that pause.
Kelley Gray: Absolutely. And it helps when they discuss in a calm time. They'll say, "Let's make a pact. Let's promise to, when we're flooded, take a break. And we both understand what that means, that I'm not abandoning you and I'm not rejecting you. I am just trying to be safe."
Then couples can navigate and talk through what that looks like for them. Like, "Okay." But don't leave the house without saying "I'll be back." Things like that.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any other healthy ways that we can engage in conflict resolution?
Kelley Gray: Just focusing on being grounded and centered and calm. I encourage people to authentically speak what is going on with them and not to water it down. Sometimes people can be overly aggressive, but a lot of the time with couples, I see them kind of trying to minimize or shave the edges off of what they are feeling or requesting. [00:28:45]
I say generally treat your spouse like they can handle it and that they want to know the whole truth of what's going on with you. So speaking the truth with grace. And "with grace" means you're trying to give the other person the benefit of the doubt that they probably didn't wake up that morning trying to aggravate or hurt you. Everyone needs to take ownership of their own part.
But to catch themselves in the act of if they're trying to take ownership for the whole thing. Sometimes in couples you have an other blamer and a self-blamer. That can get to be kind of a yucky pattern of one person not taking blame and being comfortable putting it on the other person. And the other person says, "Okay, yeah, you're right. Maybe this is all mine."
The problem is, is that if it's not true or real or authentic, it's going to fester and cause problems later on. So the more in reality we can be with what really is ours to take ownership and what is not ours to take ownership of, if we can stay calm and grounded and talk through that, then we're really being mature and awesome. [00:29:53]
Work really hard to see the perspective of the other person. Work to feel empathy and compassion. If they say something upsetting, try really hard to ask questions rather than have a strong reaction. Because maybe you haven't understood the whole of what they're trying to say.
Lastly, understand that people have different communication styles. Some people are verbal processors and they will really need to talk through a lot of different ideas before they arrive at their final destination of, Okay, this is what I feel. If the listening spouse can understand that and go for the ride with them, with some compassion and understanding, knowing, "Okay, we'll get there. I'm not going to jump on that one point right there. I'm going to let her keep going or him keep going."
And that some people are not verbal processors, and so they really need their time to think through what their few main thoughts are. And for both to just be welcoming of those different styles of communication. [00:30:58]
Laura Dugger: I think what stands out is that idea of clarifying questions with the posture of assuming the best, but then just asking, Okay, tell me more. Help me understand this here. How did you experience blank?
Kelley Gray: Yes, absolutely. "Or I just feel confused. I need to keep listening. Can you keep saying more about this?" Because oftentimes people will say, "Can I get an example of when I have done that?" That can be a very defensive question that is saying I'm not going to own that for anything. You need to bring me an argument with evidence and dates because I'm just going to shut that down wholesale."
But that question can be asked in humility with, can you help me understand when I have done that? Because that is not in my self-awareness. That's not how I see myself. I don't see myself as a person who treats you that way. Can you give me some examples? [00:31:59]
And if the person can't, then what I will often tell couples in session is, All right, well, that's going to be one to be attending to and mindful of moving forward. So can he have permission to let you know when you do that kind of more in real-time and say, "This is that thing that we were talking about in therapy?"
Laura Dugger: Yeah, that's a very honoring approach. Do you have any other first steps that couples can take toward becoming healthier in their fighting styles?
Kelley Gray: I really do think that people should journal about their patterns, I cannot overstress that, to just catch themselves in the act. Because our enemy is automaticity. We get really automatic in how we respond to each other. When we can approach our patterns with curiosity and be kind of like a little reporter noticing them, that just turns the lights on for conflict resolution.
I encourage people to know how to get themselves calm again, what they need to get themselves calm again. So to know how to practice self-soothing. [00:32:59]
And then the whole talking outside of the heat of the moment thing, I also call that having a fire drill for what you're going to do when you smell smoke and things feel intense. Have a plan that you're both going to follow. But then so many more.
Does that feel like those are some good first steps?
Laura Dugger: Those are. I want to clarify the self-soothing. I think it's so easy to come up with examples in our minds of unhealthy ways to do that that may cause more issues. So what are some examples of healthy ways we can self-soothe?
Kelley Gray: Depending on how your body is made, some people are more physical and they just can't sit still if they're upset. So for those people, I would say do anything physical. Run the stairs really quick. Do some push-ups. Do some jumping jacks.
I've done a lot of work with the MOPS organization, mothers of preschoolers, over the years. I've talked with them a lot about when you get flooded and overwhelmed with little kids around and you can't necessarily go take a yoga class or paint your nails or something. [00:34:01] That sometimes just doing jumping jacks, something that just gets your heart rate up and just discharges some of all that energy inside of you.
So something physical. You can even do a plank or a downward dog or some push-ups against the wall. Even shaking out your hands or just standing up and stretching a little bit can just release some of that tension.
Other people who don't feel it quite as physiologically, sometimes just laying down for a minute or two or five can be good. Some positive things like prayer or reading scripture or reading positive quotes that make them feel grounded again. Breathing, texting a friend, asking for some support that way.
It would just be not trying to get your partner to soothe you right then because sometimes your partner is just as incapable of soothing you as you are of soothing them. You can get mad about that, but it doesn't change the reality that they just can't do it right then. And so when both people can know what helps them feel a little bit calmer. [00:35:04]
And they can discuss that with each other. Because if there's the husband that goes down to the basement and turns on the Xbox for three hours and says, "Well, I was self-soothing," you can say, "Well, people are generally there... Their nervous system is calmed within 20, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, something like that. They can usually regain their composure if they've been intentional about helping themselves.
Downregulate is the nerdy way of saying it, but getting that heart rate back down again and back to a more grounded place.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful to even have parameters on a recommended time. So we all want to be productive in resolving conflict. And will you just share some helpful interventions that we can try?
Kelley Gray: Yeah. The more grounded you are in God and in your true self, the more skills you really just naturally have. You're just so much better at navigating what your partner needs. [00:36:02]
But a couple interventions. Some of my favorites are just really a mindset. And so the mindset of benefit of the doubt of the other person, the mindset of taking each other at face value. Especially if we were raised in homes where we had a more immature parent or a manipulative person or an abusive person around, it can really train us up to not take our partners at face value and to think that they're up to something else or to try to be second guessing what they say. I tell couples to have a conversation about how you're going to take each other at face value.
If somebody says, "You seem upset, are you upset?" and the other person says, "No, I'm not upset," that you need to take three deep breaths and say, "Okay, I believe you. And I believe that you'll tell me if that changes." And they'll say, "Great. Okay, good deal." Or they'll say, "Yes, I'm upset. Sorry, I was trying to hide it or fake it or something." So face value.
Eye contact can be really helpful. I mean, this really varies. [00:37:02] Sometimes people who've been traumatized can get kind of overwhelmed by eye contact. But I'd say for most couples, trying to offer your presence through just good, solid, present eye contact can just feel really good and really calming to the other person. So sometimes just kind of holding a moment of eye contact before even talking. I know that sounds more like something you might do on a therapist's couch, but just throwing it out there for people who might want to try it.
And then touch if it is welcome Because sometimes when couples are feeling disconnected, they're physically closing off and walling off. But it can send such an amazing, calming, soothing signal if one will reach over and squeeze the hand of the other person or just put their hand on their arm, even if something painful or difficult is getting talked about.
That certainly does not go for everybody. When I've done marriage workshops, I'll say, "Who likes the idea of being touched when you're in conflict, and who does not like the idea of being touched in conflict?" And it's the 50-50. [00:38:01]
But for the people for whom it works, it is an awesome intervention. They just calm way down. And my husband's one of those people. We could be talking about something difficult, and if I just put my hand on his back, his shoulders melt and it's almost like he doesn't care anymore. And I'm not being manipulative. I do care what he is talking about. But for those for whom it is helpful, it's really, really good.
Then one last one is just to not forget the positivity as a helpful intervention. Being positive, affirming of the other person, and then speaking your complaint or hurt in an authentic, grounded way just makes it all go so much better.
Laura Dugger: Kelley, I love all of that. I definitely want to ask my husband tonight that same question. "Would you prefer to be touched or not during conflict?"
Kelley Gray: Can I tell a quick story about a couple real quick that I worked with?
Laura Dugger: Please do.
Kelley Gray: They were so adorable. Just because of her history and background, she would feel so intimidated and overwhelmed when her husband would get upset. [00:39:04] I'd say he was a more passionate type of person. He wasn't doing anything scary. He just would feel strongly or deeply. And I think her dad was a pretty stoic, quiet character, so she wanted something different when she was choosing a husband. And then she got something different and would get kind of overwhelmed and scared of him.
And then when he would see that she was seeming scared of him, he would feel shame and get more upset and it would get so much worse. So we had to do a ton of work around her... He was very much inviting and saying, "I think it would help me a ton if you would just put your hand on me in some way." And she was saying, "I don't know if I can get there. Can I use a stick at first?"
So we just had such a laugh around her finding something to pet him with so that she could still keep a safe distance. And then that melted away very quickly. And she was able to just move towards and their conflict softened tremendously and got way more productive. I'm very open to whatever works for people. I will work with it. We're going to work with it. [00:40:07]
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone, I don't want you to miss out on this incredible deal that benefits you and us. For as little as $5 per month, you can support The Savvy Sauce and help offset our financial burden to produce these episodes, all while unlocking access to our secret bonus episodes.
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Kelley, how can we continue to get to know each other better and appreciate one another deeper? [00:41:08]
Kelley Gray: I love that question so much. I have such a basic thing to say about that first. It is be sure that you are keeping just your basic politeness and social skills up with your partner. Especially the longer marriages go on, the more we can be far more polite and attentive to strangers than we are to the people that we are sharing our own home with. Just the very basics of thank you, and I love you, and I appreciate you.
Deeper than that is stay curious about the other person. Never forget that human beings are dynamic, and we are just changing all the time, and there's always something going on below the surface.
And to just encourage, challenge yourselves to stay open and keep sharing things with your spouse. [00:42:09] I think even embarrassing things. Like if you dreamed something that you felt like, Oh gosh, that makes me such a weirdo.
I dreamed that I kissed one of my husband's friends. I'm just thinking about the broad range of listeners and what all of their issues could possibly be. I just think we have our issues, but fears of infidelity, it's just not been on our radar. So I woke up and felt embarrassed about that and thought, share it with him. Because if you share it with him, he's going to share his embarrassing stuff with you. That's the economy you want to create in your marriage, one of openness.
And he laughed, and he said, "No, I totally get it. That guy's hot." He said, "I think I dream about kissing him too." He just knew that I felt so embarrassed about it. So it's actually embarrassing about my own self, not even about inappropriate about clients.
Laura Dugger: I think you're so right that when we share even those tiny little things, or like you said, embarrassing moments, it really does foster intimacy. [00:43:13]
Kelley Gray: It sure does. Now, my husband, he gets to look at me and just say, "I know everything about that girl. That is cool. She's mine." It's so much more fun than him thinking that I have a perfect image. I just don't have the energy to keep up a perfect image. And more love comes from us being our real true selves.
So just sharing things with your spouse that feel a little bit like a risk and it feels vulnerable can inspire them to stay open with you as well.
And if your spouse is closed off, investigate why. Don't just let that go. Don't tell yourself that that's just what happens in marriages and that people run out of things to talk about. There's a reason why they're closing off. And it would benefit you to pull the thread of that now as opposed to in waiting five years.
Laura Dugger: Well, this has been so awesome already. Kelley, where can listeners find you online or perhaps book some sessions with you? [00:44:12]
Kelley Gray: Well, I work at Restoring the Soul and we are at restoringthesoul.com. I do mostly just intensive work these days. But we do also have an awesome podcast and I have several episodes on our podcast and hope to have more. My personal website is Kelleygray.com. I'm on Twitter @Kelleygray77. K-E-L-L-E-Y G-R-A-Y. I'm not super active on social media, but I'm out there a little bit.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. In case this is someone's first time listening, we always link to all of this in both our show notes and our "Resources" tab of our website.
We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Kelley, what is your savvy sauce?
Kelley Gray: I really am aware that small mundane moments can really create lasting memories and emotions and experiences. [00:45:18] And so I try so hard to stay present and awake during even our most mundane daily activities.
I also try so hard to look for everything funny. I just pursue what will be funny, what will make my family laugh after kids go to bed. I just want to watch funny shows. But I really reward my children and my husband when they make me laugh.
So continually I'm always grooming everybody's comedic abilities and creativity to make me laugh. And so they don't have to please me through achievements or perfect behavior. If they make me laugh, then, man, that is... I just feel like that's our savvy sauce in our family.
Laura Dugger: I love it. And you clearly have a great sense of humor.
Kelley Gray: Thanks.
Laura Dugger: I just want to say thank you for the life-changing work that you've devoted yourself to. It was such an honor to get some time with you today. [00:46:18] You're just very peaceful to be around. And you add so much value with your presence. So thank you for being my guest.
Kelley Gray: Laura, thanks so much for having me. And thanks for doing this work of trying to enrich people's lives and relationships and marriages. Thank you for your devotion.
Laura Dugger: I appreciate that.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:47:22]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:48:27]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:49:27]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Aug 10, 2020
Monday Aug 10, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.
106. Answering Listener’s Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
**Transcription Below**
Romans 14:19 (BSB) “So then, let us pursue what leads to peace and to mutual edification.”
Kelli Willard is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and is a pro-neurodiversity professional with 10 years experience counseling individuals and couples north of Atlanta. She's a proud mommy to two young children with colorful brains, and describes her own brain as "colorful" as well. When Kelli's not in the therapy room, or with her family, she's writing her upcoming book, "My Colorful Brain: A Neurodivergent Identity Workbook." Follow her on Instagram @love_all_the_brains or on the web at www.loveallthebrains.com and www.intimatemarriage.org.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Celebration of Sex by Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Restoring the Pleasure by Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
Building Intimate Marriages Website (770)822-4505
Your Brain on Porn by Gary Wilson
Connect with Kelli: kelli@intimatemarriage.org
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Samaritan Ministries
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Samaritan Ministries offers a biblical solution to health care, connecting you with other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Kelli Willard is a Christian sex therapist, and she's going to answer all of our listener questions today.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kelli.
Kelli Willard: Hi.
Laura Dugger: We're so excited to have you. Can you just start us off today by sharing a bit more about yourself, your family, and your work?
Kelli Willard: Well, yes, I've been licensed as a marriage and family therapist now in the state of Georgia, practicing for about 10 years, married 16 years to my total and complete opposite. [00:01:21] We are different on paper in every way possible. Meaning that if you score us on tests like the Myers-Briggs or Enneagram or any of these popular tests, we will really peg out quite dramatically on the different ends of the spectrum there.
It has been quite a learning experience to come to an acceptance of we will never be truly satisfied, I guess, with sort of the way that the other person takes in information or gives out information. And that's okay because together we form this real power couple because of our differences.
I have two children. I have a boy who is about to be eight and a daughter who just turned six, and they are little reflections of my husband and I in various ways, although they do have certain challenges that are a little different than us. So I have a very happy, exciting, challenging life here north of Atlanta. [00:02:20]
Laura Dugger: That's awesome to get just a little glimpse of your husband and your two kids.
I'm so grateful that our paths crossed way back when we met at Richmont Graduate University in Atlanta. For anyone who doesn't know our stories, the two of us actually studied the same thing, which was Marriage and Family Therapy with a specialization in Christian Sex Therapy.
I know that a question that often comes up when you meet someone new is, how did you decide to become a certified sex therapist?
Kelli Willard: Well, I was one of those kids who very early on found school to be my refuge, and so I was able to just love school and love learning from a very early age. I sort of embraced my nerdiness quite early, and from that came the application to be in the International Baccalaureate Program, the IB program, where you were allowed to sort of specialize, for lack of a better word, in high school, and I chose psychology. [00:03:21]
And I very soon, in 10th grade, realized that I was sort of electively choosing to write all my papers in psychology about sex, and it was interesting to me. It was something that I had no experience with, to clarify. I just was very interested in interactions, particularly sexual interactions, between people.
So I just sort of thought, If I wasn't going to be a famous opera singer, which was also something I thought I wanted to do, that I would be a psychologist or be a therapist, specifically a sex therapist. I just kind of knew that.
Laura Dugger: Now that you're in this field, what has amazed or even shocked you the most?
Kelli Willard: I think probably the amazing thing that continues to hit me time and time again after 10 years of sitting with people in their pain and hearing their stories is that we are all so uniquely different, but at our core we are the same.
We want the same things. [00:04:20] We want to be seen, and we want to be heard, and we want to be loved, and we want to give the love that we have in our hearts to another person. And we want that to be a fair dynamic and a just dynamic and a joyful dynamic.
Laura Dugger: Throughout all of these episodes, we will put things out there about once a month around sex, especially with a biblical worldview or perspective. And so we're just going to go through quite a few different topics that people have asked about.
So let's just start. I think everyone's curious about the clients who come to see you. What are some of the common stories you hear or the common problems that present for clients who are seeking Christian sex therapy?
Kelli Willard: The most common thing that comes into my office is concern about desire differences, where perhaps at the beginning of the relationship the couple decided together to abstain from sex, and then they're married now, and so everything is on the table, so to speak, and so they're wondering why the desire, particularly for the female, hasn't really caught up to speed. [00:05:31] Because newsflash, desire is not necessarily a switch that you can turn on or off.
Or the couple has been married for quite some time, and they experienced maybe a very high desire, both together, male and female, at the beginning of the marriage, and then that has sort of had a leveling-off effect, whether it be for the female or for the male or both, where life has just gotten in the way, really, and busyness has taken over, children and time and energy levels, and so there is this big difference where one person's desire is either starting to awaken again, or maybe it's just always been high from the beginning, or maybe it's always been low from the beginning, and they're just wondering, am I normal? Is this normal?
We know that we could be doing this better, but we don't know how to fix this. We don't know how to talk about what we would like from this sexual experience together, and what is okay to do together and experience together
Laura Dugger: One person wrote in and asked, how can a female focus during sex if she says that she's thinking about every single distraction? [00:06:39] How would you respond to that?
Kelli Willard: I would say that that is a very common concern in my office for the majority of females that I work with, particularly those with ADD. But I think it's part of just how the female brain is wired. And I know that's not comforting for me to say. Although maybe it is.
I do seek to validate this person and to say that there's nothing inherently broken about you. There is nothing wrong with you that your body has less testosterone than your husband, which then drives, for most men, the initiating effect of playfully inviting their partner to sex and then being able to sort of zero in on the experience.
That is part testosterone and part brain wiring for him if that is part of his brain type. He may be ADHD and have trouble focusing too.
So to go back to this female kind of question, I think there is a special imperative that we have as women to learn how to breathe and have a certain level of comfort with our bodies, including our brains, to be able to put ourself present in the moment and to be not just okay with what's happening as long as it's emotionally safe and physically safe, of course, but to be excited maybe about what's happening or just the potential of what's happening. [00:07:55]
Which statistically for women, if we're looking at the data, may not come in the experience, the sexual experience, until about a little bit in, you know, 10, 15, 20 minutes in to sort of have women respond, okay, yes, now I'm focused, now I'm in it.
You know, to give yourself that grace of there may be a buffer period for every sexual experience or the most of sexual experiences where it's going to be a concentrated effort to sort of put yourself in the noticing business of attention to the five senses. What am I seeing, what am I smelling, what am I tasting, what am I touching, what am I hearing?
Are those things that are accelerating for me and putting me in the spirit of the connection time or are these going to be breaks for me? Are they going to take me away from the experience for logical reasons?
Maybe there is not enough privacy in the room, maybe you're noticing with your eyes visually that the door is open and you have children in the house sleeping. It's a very simple way to not be labeling yourself as, oh, so distracted, but maybe reframe that as, well, I'm going to do something practical for the situation, secure my privacy, bring my focus back to then what else am I seeing? [00:09:04] Oh, yeah, there's my husband. Oh, yeah, there I am. I'm seeing myself touching his face.
Laura Dugger: Now moving to another listener, someone asked, how is my struggle with body image affecting my intimacy in marriage?
Kelli Willard: I was going to say there's a lot there that's very individualized. So I can speak to sort of a conglomerate of women. For some women, it will go as far as to be a sexual dysfunction in that their body just stops responding.
If they're not fully present and fully okay with their bodies and okay with their husband's bodies and okay with what is happening, then there can be an effect where penetration can be impossible even because the muscles will spasm in the vaginal area, the pelvic floor area, and result in what we call vaginismus. That can be an extreme form of a body image issue sort of taking over and then interrupting what could be a very pleasant experience. [00:10:06]
Or it could be very minor. It could be a thought that kind of comes and goes of, Well, am I pretty? Am I not? Is he thinking I'm pretty? Oh, I hope he's not looking at my stretch marks.
It could be anywhere on the range from a distraction to a dysfunction. All of these things are important because there's a lot in between there. But I would want to talk to that person and see, well, how do you see this show up?
Is it something where your negative self-talk is really driving the experience for you and robbing you of joy? Or is it something that you're actively coping with and it's only every now and then that it gets you? Or does it just shut you down completely to where you don't want to engage or when you do try to engage, your body is not responding?
Laura Dugger: Another person wrote in and asked, is there any science behind the use it or lose it mentality?
Kelli Willard: There is a very common saying we have as Christian sex therapists that a sex life at rest tends to stay at rest and a sex life in motion tends to stay in motion. [00:11:05] And so there is some truth that if you're not using intentionality and nurturing your sex life with your husband, then there will be an effect there of either emotional distancing.
Maybe you're just not feeling attached to each other because your bodies aren't attaching regularly, or maybe some walls start and resentments start building up or maybe some old negative self-talk creeps in about, well, does he want me or not? Do I want him or not? Or are we even in love? This really can spiral out of control very quickly for some people.
But I don't think that you'll ever forget how to engage together. I think there's always a way to sort of remember those pleasant sensations that you have and to revive them with some new creative lovemaking strategies over the years, even if it's been a long time since you've connected.
The hope is that when you do connect, you're connecting in creative, playful, loving ways that are honoring to both of you. And you can sort of explore how to get that ball rolling again together in ways, like I said, that are honoring to both of you. [00:12:09]
Laura Dugger: I think that actually ties into... I'll combine a few of these questions. You're talking about being playful and creative. Multiple people wrote in and said things like, do you have any creative ways to have sex, especially when the kids are at home? Or do you have any creative tips for how to connect and have more fun sexually in our marriage?
Kelli Willard: Yes. And so much of this is about attitudes and the attitude that you bring to the experience. Because if you are in the right mindset for play, you've already won. If you're in that mindset and your husband says, well, why don't we try this creative thing that's out of your typical wheelhouse or something? If you're in the mind of play, you can sort of laugh together about it, even if the answer is no. And no always means no.
But the point is that you're able to sort of creatively come up with things together that are creative solutions. They don't have to be just so bonkers, bananas crazy. [00:13:08] It could just be as simple as, "Well, the children are upstairs and we actually found ourselves in the basement. We usually have sex in our room, but there is this guest room here. The kids are old enough and safe and watching a movie. We have 30 minutes. Why don't we go in this different room?"
That's a creative solution, a flexible solution, that if you're in the attitude of play, you can see this is a potential fun thing. If you're in the attitude or if this triggers for you, be it from dynamics of your relationship or from your past, if this triggers a level of unsafety for you, then you're going to have a hard time getting into the attitude of play and attention needs to be paid to that instead of just criticizing yourself or allowing yourself to be criticized by the other person for being a stick in the mud. There's something real happening there to pay attention to.
So that's one of the things is to just adopt attitude of play whenever possible so that you can creatively think of things together and just be open to the different suggestions that you come up with. [00:14:09] Because I think you're more flexible than you think. It's just that you're probably used to shooting things down pretty often for a lot of reasons and we need to take this into a sort of a safe zone when it's not in the heat of the moment, in safe conversations outside of the bedroom to say, Wow, what does play mean for you? We always kind of do this. What about this?
Or maybe we're in a season of life where we do need to schedule in order to then be playful. And so it's just sort of figuring that out, how you can get into that right attitude space.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Thank you to today's sponsor, Samaritan Ministries. We know that God's love is steadfast and true. He cares for us as we are called to care for one another. Samaritan Ministries connects hundreds of thousands of Christians across the nation who care for one another through prayer, encouragement, and financial support for medical needs.
As a Samaritan member, when a healthcare need arises, you get to choose the doctor, hospital, and pharmacy that works best for you and your family. [00:15:16] You also have access to resources that can help you choose a provider, price medical procedures, and get medical advice before you visit the doctor.
Each month, Samaritan members send their financial gift directly to a member who has a medical need. They pray for them and they send a note of encouragement, all while reflecting God's love and care. Members then use the money they receive to pay their healthcare providers directly.
You can find comfort in the prayers, encouragement, and direct financial support from other members who strive to minister to all aspects of your health care need, spiritual, emotional, physical, and financial. New members are always welcome. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Laura Dugger: Changing gears here, someone else asks, what are some benefits for married couples who are connecting frequently? [00:16:15]
Kelli Willard: Well, what they're doing for their relationship is they're establishing a really healthy buffer of good emotional feelings and connectiveness that they can draw upon when they're not being sexual. Everyone gets irritated with each other. And so if you are irritated with your spouse, and I'm talking about annoyances, not abuse, you can remind yourself, This is the person that I share a special bond with. This is the person that knows my body and accepts my body and who is capable of helping me to feel really good.
You kind of build that John Gottman, he's a marriage researcher, that ratio of five positive experiences to every one negative experience that this researcher has found sort of tends to keep a couple afloat and reporting that they're satisfied in marriage.
And so if you're having some good sexual experiences, then boom, that goes into your five positive kind of category. And hopefully, you're talking lovingly to each other and you're doing acts of service and all those other love language things. [00:17:14]
So if the one negative annoyance or even some struggles and challenges happens in your marriage, you can have that buffer. It's just a touch point, a literal touch point that you have that we like each other, we're emotionally and physically safe with each other, and we can draw upon that bond when we need it.
Laura Dugger: Here's another question. What are some common practices that you see in couples who are enjoying a fulfilling and meaningful sex life in marriage?
Kelli Willard: These are couples who can do the separation between work and play. These are the couples that are able to have either a working date once a week or some regular time of doing sort of the work of marriage of, okay, what's our schedule look like? Who's taking the kids here? What are we doing? They're doing the business, the finances. They're doing things as well as you can.
And then they're having times too where they're just able to forget about all of that stress and just go and ride go-karts. [00:18:15] Or these are couples that put sex in that category of play and just sort of release and enjoyment of each other, and they're able to contain the two.
When they're having sex, they're able to kind of put their mind in the place of the five senses of the experience and enjoying the connection, and they're able to communicate and coach each other if needed, and they're able to work through any challenge they have there and just enjoy each other, which may or may not result in orgasm. It just results in oneness.
They can keep sort of the work, the business, out of that sacred space. And likewise, when they're working, they're not playing. When they're working, they are doing the business stuff, and there's no bleedover.
So these are also couples that have it figured out for childcare, which is not an easy thing at all, and they are carving out privacy for themselves, whether or not it's an actual babysitter or maybe it's just there's a certain time of day where they know the kids are going to sleep through the night. Or maybe it's during the day when the kids are at school. [00:19:19] There's a way that they've figured out the privacy component.
The last thing I'll mention is they've figured out how to manage their personal energy levels, whether it's choosing a time of day where they're more energetic or just to be able to talk about, well, okay, after this time of night, closed for business, but this time of day, open for business.
You know, there's a way that they've been able to talk about when they have energy and to be able to give those invitations and refusals, no is okay, with respect back and forth and attention to the data that the other person is giving them about their energy levels and what they need to feel private and whatnot.
They've kind of figured some of that out, and they have a little formula, and they go with it, and they're flexible to change it if they need to.
Laura Dugger: How do you tell your spouse you want more in the bedroom without sounding like your sex together isn't great?
Kelli Willard: Well, there is an old technique that is not necessarily a therapy technique. [00:20:20] It was probably in pop culture somewhere, but I love it. I will sometimes joke with my clients quite frequently because this is a sacred topic, but it is also a very fun topic.
So I usually coach the sandwich method to where the top slice of bread is a compliment, the meat of the sandwich is what you'd like to change or something more or better or different. Even a complaint can go in there. And then the bottom bread is another compliment.
So an example would be, "Honey, I love it when we kiss each other. We've been married for X amount of years, and we're still kissing. That's great. I love your kisses. You know, sometimes they can be a little sloppy for me." Here, I'm getting into the meat of it. "I don't want you to kiss this area or that. Can we change this, that, or the other? "You're a great husband. I really appreciate how you washed the dishes the other day for me. That spoke my love language."
There is a way that you can approach these topics by leading with some strengths and positivity and then linking that to something that could be improved from your perspective. [00:21:22]
And the person is going to be a little bit more receptive. Like, Oh, okay, yeah, she is recognizing the things that I do well, and we have some common ground there. Yeah, I like kissing too. You know, we're starting from a place of togetherness and strength, and that puts us in a great position to be able to flexibly troubleshoot that meat portion, even if it's sort of a hot topic.
You've primed the pump there for the conversation to go well. And as long as the other person isn't too defensive, you should be able to have a pretty good conversation, and then you're going to end on a positive note and hopefully some gratitude for the conversation taking place on both parts.
One, the husband is thankful for the assertiveness of the wife, and two, then the wife is thankful that she's been assertive, of course, and also that hopefully the husband has been flexible and listening. That can sometimes take a lot of support in a third party to be present, to be able to negotiate and talk without, like I mentioned, those high levels of defensiveness or feeling attacked or just having a very low sense of self-esteem that if someone mentions something about your sexual performance or your body or something like that, that you just crumble. [00:22:30] So some people will need some extra support there, and that's okay.
Laura Dugger: This next question is the most common one that we get, and it's always worded in a different way, so I'll just choose one way. Recently somebody asked, what is a good frequency in sex?
Kelli Willard: A good frequency of sex is going to be when you and your spouse can say on any given day, kind of, we're connected, we're bonded, we're a team, and sex is part of that. So if that's that you connect and have a healthy, loving, mutual sexual experience where you experience bondedness and oneness once a week, once a month, twice a week, every other week, three times a week. You get me here, there's variation.
As long as you are saying in times of non-sexual, not just in the bedroom, but if I polled you, if I called you up and said, hey, how do you feel about your spouse? If you were able to say, "Oh, my spouse and I, we're a team, we're pretty connected most of the time... And you know what, sex is a part of that," then I would say, well, you've probably hit a really good frequency. Because sex is kind of on your mind, you're including that as part of your bond. [00:23:46]
And I would say if you're not able to say that, unless there's some pain and trauma there that we need to get at that's just very logical, of course, sex wouldn't be in that healthy zone for you yet, then I would say, Okay, well, maybe let's look at your frequency.
Are you tapping into this resource in your marriage to experience oneness and bondedness enough? Is it enough of a priority for you in your marriage that it would sort of be on your mind when I talked about togetherness?
Some of that is cultural, too. In the South, we don't just talk sex. So some of that is just maybe sex isn't really super on your mind, no matter how, quote-unquote, frequent it is. But I would just, in a therapy setting, use that sort of as a clinical gauge. Are you experiencing oneness on some level of regularity to be able to include sex as part of your bond?
Laura Dugger: And I'll ask one follow-up question for that. Is there any even amount on either extreme that you would caution clients? Let's say there is no trauma, there is no sexual abuse. [00:24:48] Is there a gauge that you see of this may be too frequent or too infrequent?
Kelli Willard: Yes. Just from clinical experience only here of 10 years of listening to stories, as a practitioner, I always have a little bit of a pause when I hear things like, Oh, we connect sexually everyday or every other day. Because in my experience... and remember, people aren't really coming to a sex therapist when things are just going great.
So there may be people out there listening that are able to connect every day and want that, and it's both very mutual. They both want that.
But from my experience, when I hear that level of very frequent connection every day, multiple times a day, every other day, that's a lot. I would say, is this something that is both mutually desired, or is this kind of in the line of a duty sex, or is one person kind of feeling like they need to do this in order for the other person to be in a good mood, or are they using that as sort of like a temperature gauge of their relationship, or on the very extreme end, is this sort of compulsive in that...? Sometimes I hear, "Well, he can't go to sleep without it, and so I just do this, and I'm kind of feeling like his sleeping pill." [00:26:00]
So then I would caution whether or not that is truly for oneness and bonding, or is that for some other purpose? Are you just trying to get to sleep? Are you trying to scratch a compulsive itch kind of? Is this something that you feel like you need to or you were told one time you had to, otherwise it would indicate that you just are going to fall apart or that he or she would stray elsewhere, which are frequent lies that we sometimes tend to believe, or maybe are even explicitly taught about our role as a wife, that we have to do this to keep a man or something. And I would just sort of challenge that frequency. Is it really serving the purpose of oneness that sex is desired for by God?
And then infrequent, I would say that really varies because there are some couples that will connect monthly or every other month and report a very stable, wonderful marriage and sex life, and it's maybe due to aging or physical concerns or whatever it might be. There might be a disability involved or just season of life where their priorities are kind of elsewhere. [00:27:01] And even if sex was on the top of their list, they're okay with that level of intimacy.
So there is no right or wrong here, but I do just like the kind of quote-unquote too frequent sex, I would question that couple where it was kind of once a month or every other month or something. I would kind of question to say, are we missing out on some opportunities maybe to connect more? Are you truly satisfied with this? But I won't dictate that for anybody. They may be perfectly fine with that.
Laura Dugger: I think that's great to have a helpful guide on either end. You speak to so many people there.
You seriously do not want to miss out on our Patreon guests. One example from last September is Tracey LeGrand's episode, which discusses the science of female orgasm. She also shares how couples can enjoy a more pleasure-filled sex life, and she brings some scripture to life in a new way I've never considered.
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Someone else wrote in and said, How do we help our kids not be inhibited about sex when they are married?
Kelli Willard: Well, I would say what you do in front of your kids matters, and so please keep healthy boundaries, obviously. But I'm talking about the little kisses on the cheek, the hugs that you give each other as parents. How you show your children that you love their father is really important so that then they are learning... And I'm speaking as a wife here, so I'm just speaking to the women for just a minute. Obviously, this applies to men, too, in loving their wives.
But what you model to them is what they are going to see as, quote-unquote, normal, is going to form sort of a template in their minds of what then their expectations in their own marriage is going to be. [00:29:05]
So I don't want the single parents out there listening to think, "Oh, I've just completely ruined my child. I'm not in a healthy dynamic of healthy remarriage with anybody, and so they're not seeing anything, and all they're going to remember is all this pain. They've never seen me kiss in a loving way with their father."
I don't want to induce shame by this conversation because in that case of the single parent, I would say there's just going to be a lot of good conversations with the child about what is healthy and vision casting and whatnot.
But if you're in a dynamic where you're a married partner, I would just think about how are we modeling affection to each other through our kisses, through our hugs, and they will then internalize some of that as sort of normal.
I would think, how do I show affection to my child in an appropriate way? Am I free with my hugs, and am I paying attention to consent? Maybe I'm not a hugger, and so I show my love in different ways. [00:30:02] But if I am a hugger and my child isn't, I'm just not going to barrel through and hug because I want them to have a healthy marriage someday. No, that's not respecting that child's body.
First and foremost, you're respecting that child's body autonomy, and you're paying attention to their physical touch needs, and you're seeking to kind of be responsive to that, and you're modeling too. If you're not a hugger but they are, it's okay to tell your kids, you know, Mommy's not feeling like a hug right now. How about we do a high five instead?
And so you're setting them up for some good communication about physical touch in the future with their spouse, which then paves a really good foundation for them in the marriage.
Laura Dugger: Kelli, you've done an incredible job not knowing these questions ahead of time and just being willing to engage with these different members of the audience. So thank you for that. If anybody's listening and they want to follow up with you online, or even if they want to make an appointment with you, where would you direct them? [00:31:02]
Kelli Willard: Yes, I work for Building Intimate Marriages in North Atlanta. So we have a website, IntimateMarriage.org, and I can be reached personally at my email, Kelli@intimateMarriage.org. Our phone number is (770) 822-4505. I'm sure you'll put this all in the show notes.
But you can find more information about our practice there. We have lots of free resources and exciting things if you're not in our area. But we hope if you're local to us that you'll come see us.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for that, in case anyone wants to follow up. I just have one final question for you today. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And we would love to know from you, Kelli, what is your savvy sauce?
Kelli Willard: I would say that God has designed each and every one of us with a beautiful uniqueness that reflects Him and also is so powerful in order to connect interpersonally with other people. [00:32:08] So in our marriage, that is just such a special opportunity.
If we can start to know ourselves and love ourselves and show our spouse parts of us, our inner workings, and give them the opportunity to be themselves too, you're going to have some powerful sex because that sex is going to be an outflow of that verbal communication that you're having back and forth about, Here's who I am. Oh, I love how you are. Oh, yes, I married you for this. And then your bodies are going to follow that.
So that emotional connection really can breed some really powerful physical connection. And I just want to send encouragement that we can all learn to love ourselves better and how God created us and be more authentic more often with our spouse and let them be authentic too.
Laura Dugger: Well, this time has been incredibly informative. Thank you so much for being my guest today. [00:33:08]
Kelli Willard: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Anytime you want me to answer questions, I'm here.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:34:13] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. [00:35:15] We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:36:16] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Aug 03, 2020
Monday Aug 03, 2020
Top 10 From 2019: #1 Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Beth McCord
Jeremiah 1:5 (a) NIV “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;"
Beth McCord is the founder of Your Enneagram Coach. She has been an Enneagram speaker, coach and teacher for over 15 years. Beth is passionate about coming alongside individuals and helping them re-write their story, allowing them to see that lasting change, meaningful relationships, and a life of deep purpose is possible. This passion is what drove her to create this community, a safe place for individuals to explore the Enneagram. Beth is now leading the industry in simplifying the deep truths of the Enneagram from a Biblical perspective. Beth's passion is to make the Enneagram accessible for everyone, anywhere, so they can experience the transformation they long for. This includes one-on-one coaching, in-person events and workshops and online courses. She also offers training and support for those interested in becoming an Enneagram coach. At home, Beth's favorite hobbies are studying and producing helpful Enneagram resources, fly fishing, and driving through the beautiful hillsides of Tennessee with her family. Beth lives outside of Nashville and has been married to her best friend, Jeff, for 22 years (Type 6, Loyal Guardian). They have two teenage children (a Type 6, Loyal Guardian and a Type 2, Supportive Advisor). Combining the gospel and the Enneagram has been instrumental in Beth and Jeff's marriage and parenting.
Other Episode Related to the Enneagram:
Episode 92: The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Boundaries for the Soul by Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller
Connect with Beth on Instagram @yourenneagramcoach
Beth is offering The Savvy Sauce listeners $10 off either Discovering You or Exploring You when you use the code: 10OFF. The Discovering You course is also INSIDE Exploring You so we encourage that option!
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Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jul 27, 2020
Monday Jul 27, 2020
Top 10 From 2019: #2 Sharing God’s Love With the World with Katie Davis Majors
Philippians 1:6 (NIV) “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Katie Davis Majors lives in Uganda. She and her husband, Benji, are the parents of 13 adopted daughters and two sons. In 2008, she started Amazima Ministries International, a non-profit organization to meet the physical, emotional, educational, and spiritual needs of the people of Uganda (www.amazima.org). Additionally, she is the author of Kisses from Katie: A Story of Relentless Love and Redemption and Daring to Hope, which chronicle her amazing call and obedience to God and to Uganda. Read more of Katie’s blog at katiemajors.blog and follow her on Instagram and Twitter at @katieinuganda.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Katie Davis Majors:
Connect with Katie on Instagram and Twitter @katieinuganda
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jul 20, 2020
Monday Jul 20, 2020
Top 10 From 2019: #3 Joys and Challenges of Motherhood with April Hoss
Proverbs 14:8 “The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception.”
April Hoss is a wife, mom of 4, and unapologetic animal lover and dessert orderer living in southern California. She is living proof medical school ends, homeschool hecklers can become homeschool moms, and God has the wildest plans for the most unexpected people. She just completed her first novel, The Sound of Arrows.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Some of April’s Favorite Recipes:
Some of April’s Recommended Food Blogs:
N.D. Wilson Books April Recommends:
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Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!
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Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jul 13, 2020
Monday Jul 13, 2020
Top 10 From 2019: #4 Deep Dive into the Enneagram with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord
Psalm 139:13+14 (NIV) “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb, I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
Beth McCord is the founder of Your Enneagram Coach. She has been an Enneagram speaker, coach and teacher for over 15 years. Beth is passionate about coming alongside individuals and helping them re-write their story, allowing them to see that lasting change, meaningful relationships, and a life of deep purpose is possible. This passion is what drove her to create this community, a safe place for individuals to explore the Enneagram. Beth is now leading the industry in simplifying the deep truths of the Enneagram from a Biblical perspective. Beth's passion is to make the Enneagram accessible for everyone, anywhere, so they can experience the transformation they long for. This includes one-on-one coaching, in-person events and workshops and online courses. She also offers training and support for those interested in becoming an Enneagram coach. At home, Beth's favorite hobbies are studying and producing helpful Enneagram resources, fly fishing, and driving through the beautiful hillsides of Tennessee with her family. Beth lives outside of Nashville and has been married to her best friend, Jeff, for 22 years (Type 6, Loyal Guardian). They have two teenage children (a Type 6, Loyal Guardian and a Type 2, Supportive Advisor). Combining the gospel and the Enneagram has been instrumental in Beth and Jeff's marriage and parenting.
Connect with Beth on Instagram @yourenneagramcoach
Beth is offering The Savvy Sauce listeners $10 off either Discovering You or Exploring You when you use the code: 10OFF. The Discovering You course is also INSIDE Exploring You so we encourage that option!
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Elizabeth Dixon, Speaker and Clearly Filtered Use Discount Code "SavvyWaterFilters" to get 20% off your first purchase. Limit 1 per customer, please :)
Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!
Other Episode Related to the Enneagram:
Episode 92: The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”