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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Nov 16, 2020
Monday Nov 16, 2020
121. Motherhood on Purpose with Ruth Schwenk
**Transcription Below**
1 Samuel 17: 39+40 (AMP) “Then David fastened his sword over his armor and tried to walk, [but he could not,] because he was not used to them. And David said to Saul, “I cannot go with these, because I am not used to them.” So David took them off. Then he took his [shepherd’s] staff in his hand and chose for himself five smooth stones out of the stream bed, and put them in his shepherd’s bag which he had, that is, in his shepherd’s pouch. With his sling in his hand, he approached the Philistine.”
Ruth Schwenk is co-founder of The Better Life Ministry, co-host of the Rootlike Faith podcast, and co-author with her husband, Pat, of In A Boat in the Middle of a Lake: Trusting the God Who Meets Us in Our Storm. A graduate of Moody Bible Institute, Ruth is also the author of The Better Mom book and Devotional, Pressing Pause, and Faith Forward Family Devotional. Ruth is a Michigan football superfan, a self-proclaimed “foodie,” and lover of all things HGTV. But her greatest joy is her family. She is a blessed wife to her Pastor/Author husband, Patrick, and mom to four beautiful children, and she eagerly awaits meeting her five others, lost through miscarriage, in heaven one day.
Connect with Ruth on Instagram or Facebook
Ruth Schwenk’s Free resources:
Faith Forward Family Map (includes Family Mission Statement)
Yearly Personal Inventory for Moms
Scriptures for Hope During Hard Times
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Resources Authored and Co-Authored by Ruth Schwenk:
In the Boat in the Middle of a Lake
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian School
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Ruth Schwenk is a life-giving person to spend time with. She is a talented author and speaker, and we're going to cover various topics she has studied, applied, and can now pass along to each of us as encouragement at this exact point of our parenting journey. You will end this conversation with clear next steps to take to confidently live joyfully with intentionality.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ruth.
Ruth Schwenk: Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: Will you just begin by sharing more of your story? [00:01:19]
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. So where do I start? My husband and I have been married for 22 years, which seems impossible and makes me sound old. But I don't know, I don't feel old. But we've been married for 22 years and have been in full-time church ministry — my husband's a pastor — for that entire time.
We have four kids. Our oldest is 18, we have a 16-year-old, a 13-year-old, and an 11-year-old. Sometimes I say their age is wrong, just so you know. We all struggle with that. We have four kids.
Let's see. About 10 years ago, I was really feeling called into mom ministry and I wasn't sure how that looked, and I really prayed about it for quite a while. About that time, blogs were kind of getting popular.
After praying about it for a while, I felt like I was supposed to start an online ministry for moms. [00:02:19] So I started, about 10 years ago, thebettermom.com. It is still a place for moms of all different ages and in different stages to come together to learn and grow and to become better by becoming more like Jesus. We have about 30 contributors. I gathered all different women to write for the site.
That's kind of where my online journey began. It was pretty crazy. I had no idea what I was doing, but I was just following what I felt like God had put on my heart and called me to do.
Through that, all sorts of things opened up. I now have written, I don't even know, 8 to 10 books. We have a ministry also for families now called forthefamily.org. Our overall ministry is called thebetterlifeministry.com.
We have a podcast. We have all sorts of stuff now that all just kind of bloomed out of that little space where I felt like God was calling me 10 years ago. [00:03:22] It's been a pretty incredible journey.
We still are in local church ministry. I feel like that's our first calling. We absolutely love being a part of online ministry as well and just the opportunity to reach people all over the world.
Laura Dugger: From your story, it's apparent that you have a lot of roles to manage and you're managing them well. How have you and Patrick found a rhythm that works even in the midst of busyness?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I first want to say it's never perfect. I feel like there's an ebb and flow to this. You're always kind of reevaluating and where do we need to make some changes? What are we doing well at? First of all, Pat and I, we're a really good team. We work really well together.
There's areas that I'm strong in and there's areas that he's strong in. We kind of makeup for that, I think, in one another. He loves to write, so that's always been a love of his. [00:04:27] That definitely has helped in our online ministry because there are books that we have written together.
But then, of course, step away from just online ministry and local church ministry, we have to start here in the home with our family. I think you're right. There's so much to manage. There's so many pieces.
Honestly, it's only gotten harder as the kids have gotten older because they become their own person and they have their own things to do. It's not so much that I can put them down for a nap and do my thing. Saying all of that, every season has looked different for us.
I would encourage the listener to be okay with that. Different seasons bring different rhythms and things may have to look differently. It never looks perfect.
I think one thing that Pat and I have done over the years that has really helped, and we haven't done this perfectly either, but our expectations, we've tried to communicate those to one another. [00:05:28] I think we take for granted how instead of me thinking, Oh, I wish you would be doing this, or I wish this would be really helpful if we would... We can so internalize those thoughts and those things.
But there's such a change when I just ask for help and I say, "Hey, could you do this?" Because then all of a sudden, I'm not having these thoughts like, "Oh, I wish you would." Also, because I think that really helps us keep a rhythm in the midst of busyness.
Another thing I would say that has been really huge for us over the years, it's just really making sure that as a family in our home, we know what our values are. We know what to say no to, what to say yes to, because we've taken the time to sit down and map out what's important to us, what we're willing to sacrifice our time for.
Those are just some things I think that we've done over the years that have really helped us manage well in the midst of busyness. Again, I don't want to make this sound perfect, because it isn't. [00:06:31] You're constantly reevaluating. There's going to be times that you're busy, and that's okay. I don't want to be so strict and legalistic about it that there's not room for some of that ebb and flow like I was talking about.
Laura Dugger: I hear you saying that with you and Patrick and your marriage, you keep it real-time with your communication or expectations, but then also you knew your values, and your family knew their values. Could you give an example right now when they're 11 to 18, what does a decision look like for you that you all are willing to sacrifice because of a certain value?
Ruth Schwenk: One of our values is eating dinner together. That doesn't mean that every single night of the week we're able to do that, but we want to do that as often as possible. This is something that years ago, when they were really little, that we sat down and said.
If one of the kids has an activity like basketball, and their practice is every night of the week at dinnertime, and it's going to go on for nine months of the year, and they come to us and say, "This is what I really want to do," we probably are going to try to figure out something else. [00:07:46] That's probably not going to work because that would totally go against one thing that's very important to us. We'd never be together for dinner. I guess that's an example, like a real-life example.
Again, there's seasons. So maybe then we find something that's a little bit shorter of a season. Maybe practices are a little bit later or a little bit earlier, or maybe they are at dinnertime, but they're only like two nights a week. You know, every family is different here.
But that's an example of how we would take a value of ours and apply it to an opportunity or something that we wanted to be a part of. I will say people can tend to then just pull back so much. So there is a balance here. We are to be servants. We are to serve Christ. We are to serve in our local church. There's things like that. Of course, it's not at the expense of our family, but we do need a balance there, that there are things like that that we will give our lives to that are important to us. [00:08:46]
Laura Dugger: That sounds like a both-and rather than an either-or. That always sounds like wisdom. You are obviously a gifted writer, as revealed by your popular blog and many books. We won't have time to cover all the topics that you've studied and written about, but I do want to explore a few.
In your recent book, The Better Mom, you note that Jesus calls us to live not a weary life, but a worthy life. Will you teach us more about that idea of finding freedom and walking confidently in our purpose?
Ruth Schwenk: Wow. There's so much we could talk about with this, but I think the tendency is to be overwhelmed by our circumstances and maybe even the desires and callings of our heart in our life and feel stuck there without moving forward. I don't know about you, but that makes me weary. [00:09:46]
When I know I'm not walking confidently into the purpose that God has called me, it's a burden. Because when we've been called to something, that's what God has for us that will make us come alive.
I guess when you bring up that question, that's immediately what comes to my mind. We can walk confidently in our purpose. For instance, ten years ago, when I really felt God impressing upon my heart to start this mom ministry, my kids were little.
One of the places that came from was because I was at home alone. I felt like I can't be the only one that feels like this. I was just trying to get through the day, I felt like. I felt like I wanted a place where moms could come together that felt like that.
For me, I felt that calling. Now, I knew in that season that there was going to be things that I probably couldn't do because of where I was at. I had young kids. But there was still something that God was calling me to, and I followed His call. [00:10:47]
As moms, I will be the first to say that we have such a high calling as a mom. We have a mission. God has called us to raise kids who will be a light to the world. Who we are at home is who we really are. I'll be the first to say that. But I don't think that that is our identity. Our identity and our worth is in being a child of Christ.
Just because I'm called to be a mom doesn't mean I'm not called to be something else as well. Don't be afraid of that. But again, it's going to look different in different seasons.
I didn't really travel very much and speak those first few years because my kids were so little. And I had to have boundaries. Even though I was following God's call, there were things I just couldn't do. My first calling was at home with my family.
Laura Dugger: I just want to lean into this a little bit. Was it at all a wrestle or struggle for you to know that you are called to this beautiful role of being a mother and also, that was not your only calling? [00:11:53] Because I'm thinking of the woman listening who maybe has something stirring in her heart, or she has something that she does in addition to motherhood. As a believer, maybe she's gotten some mixed messages of whether that's okay or not. How would you respond to her?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I would say I don't know if it's my personality. I don't know. I've always had something else. It's made me a better mom, to be honest with you. I feel like when I am walking confidently into the calling where I feel like God is calling me, I feel like for my kids to watch their mother be called by God to walk out what He has for me has a great impact on them.
We've always involved them in our ministry and things we've done, and they're always there with us. They're always a part of all of that. We involve them in everything. And I think that we take for granted the impact it can have on our kids to actually see their mom live out a calling that God has placed on their life. [00:12:59]
Now, I'm not talking about something where you are completely absent. It can become unhealthy, right, like anything. And so I think we have to be careful. There's different seasons.
When I was called into mom ministry and all of this online stuff opened up and I could have been speaking all the time. For my family, that would have been very detrimental because they needed me here. Honestly, I needed to be here as well. I don't think I could have managed all of that.
So I think it's different for everybody. I think every season is different. But I just keep coming back to that our identity is in Christ, and He has called us to serve Him. For all of us, that will be in different ways. The areas that God has called me, I have followed in. And I think that that has awakened things in me, it has stirred gifts in me, and it has made me come alive in ways that have really spilled out into my family as well. [00:14:01]
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. Because I think that you're just modeling how we can walk in the freedom of God, and even by doing so, that just naturally can train or teach our children to do the same.
And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: This sponsor is particularly special to our editor Natalie, because this is the school where her husband teaches and her children attend.
Peoria Christian School, grades pre-K through 12, offers a Christ-centered, award-winning education for students. They believe eternity matters, and so they want to share the importance of knowing the Lord personally. PCS supports the Christian home and church by teaching from a biblical worldview. Their caring faculty and staff infuses God's truths through every area of the day, not just in daily Bible classes or in weekly chapels.
Peoria Christian students engage in active learning through STEAM, bring your own device in high school, and so much more. [00:15:00] The Peoria Christian Elementary School was named a 2017 National Blue Ribbon School of Excellence, and the high school was named a 2018 National Blue Ribbon Exemplary High-Performing School.
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Peoria Christian School is raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org and schedule a campus tour today. Thanks for your sponsorship.
In a book authored by you and your husband, entitled For Better or For Kids, you encourage others to build a God-centered marriage instead of a child-centered or me-centered marriage. So how can we actually do that? [00:16:02]
Ruth Schwenk: When we talk about that in the book For Better or For Kids, we're talking about the tendency to build our whole life around our kids and what they're doing versus first and foremost our marriage is the first priority. Some of the things that we notice that might be warning signs, I guess, of it becoming more of a child-centered or me-centered marriage would be, are you too busy as a family because of all the kids' activities? You do everything at home, the kids don't. So what I mean by that is chores. And everything at home you're just trying to keep it all together and they're not doing anything.
Maybe you feel alone in your marriage. You don't have time for a date night ever. Things like that would be warning signs that something probably isn't right.
I think that how we build a God-centered marriage, well, first of all is the communication piece. That's very important.[00:17:03] And it's just really about serving one another selflessly, making your marriage a priority, like recognizing that the health of your home really starts there with your marriage.
I think here also is taking a look to those values and priorities that you've set as a family, which I will give you a link that hopefully you can put in your show notes for listeners. It's a guide that actually my husband and I put together to help families set those values and priorities. It's very simple. I think that we don't realize the impact it can have to just have that framework for our family. So I do have a worksheet for listeners to help them do that.
Laura Dugger: I love that. That would be incredible. We will certainly link it in our show notes and under our Resources tab of our website to make it easy for people to find.
In another one of your books that you co-authored, entitled Hoodwinked, you share about myths moms believe and how they're unhelpful until they're replaced with truth. [00:18:06] I would love to know, what have you seen to be the most destructive myth moms believe?
Ruth Schwenk: Hoodwinked was actually my first book, and that was with Karen Ehman. She and I co-authored it together. The book is... Every chapter is a different myth that moms believe. I guess the one myth that stands out to me that I feel like really resonates with me, so I would assume others as well, is the myth, I have to do it all right, or my child will turn out wrong.
I think that that is a struggle we all face. And we don't face it once. Honestly, I still struggle with that at times as my kids are getting older. The dangers here are that when we believe a myth like that, like I have to do it all right, or my child will turn out wrong, is that we start to parent out of comparison and fear my own desires. [00:19:07] Like I want my kids to do what I want them to do. I might parent out of my past, so the things that I wrestled with still from years ago, I'm parenting to hopefully remedy that in my child. Also, I think we can parent just to find worth.
That's just being really honest, and I know some of those you want to go, ouch. You know what I mean? Am I parenting out of comparison? Come on, if we all were to be honest, I think we would probably admit, in all of those things I just mentioned, we probably all do that at different times.
But I think the biggest thing with this myth that I learned... and I remember one of my mentors, her name is Sally Clarkson. She's amazing. She's an author and a mentor to so many moms across the world. I remember her asking me years ago, "Ruth, is there one child of yours that you're just struggling to figure out?"
Immediately I said yes. And I knew exactly who it was. And she said to me, "Well, she just needs you to sympathize with her." And I kind of looked at her, and I was like... and she basically was saying to me that she's not like you. [00:20:23] So I see her world through my world, and really she is a completely different personality than me. Instead of saying, oh, don't worry about it, it's not a big deal, she needs me to say, oh, I am so sorry that you feel like that. That's one area.
When I think about this myth, you know, I have to do it all right, or my child will turn out wrong, we of course don't have to do it all right, but there are ways that we can do it better. I think this is a huge thing for us as parents, if we can realize that for every child is different.
And the tendency when we believe this, that we have to do it all right, is that we're trying to dress our kids in armor that they weren't meant to wear. What I mean by that is when we think about the story of David and Goliath in the Bible, I love this. I love this story when it comes to parenting. I have shared this numerous times over the years.
When it came to Saul turning over his armor to David, David put it on, he was like, Oh, I can't wear this. [00:21:27] So he did not wear the armor, he wore his own armor. And then, of course, we know he defeated Goliath. I feel like we as parents can be so much like Saul.
We have that idea of what we want for our kids: who we want them to be, how we want them to act, what we want them to do. But really, they're called to wear their own armor. My kids aren't called to operate of the Ruth Schwenk perspective and personality. They have their own personality. They are their own person. They will have their own armor to wear.
I think if we can come with that perspective to parenting, there will be a burden lifted there because we'll realize it's okay that they're different than us. That doesn't mean that they're wrong. Ultimately, the big picture here is what we have to keep in mind. It's only by God's grace that our children turn out at all. We don't have to get it all right. We never will. We won't be perfect. [00:22:26] But by God's grace, we have to trust that He will take care of them, and He's a much better parent than we are.
Laura Dugger: That is very hopeful and very encouraging to hear. Another topic that I want to discuss comes from your daily devotional book that's called From Grouchy to Great. So will you share with us what you've learned about overcoming anger?
Ruth Schwenk: We have to take care of ourselves. And I think the very best way that we can take care of ourselves is by spending time in God's Word and not missing that. I understand that moms are busy, and we're looking for just those little pockets of time that we can spend with God.
So I would really encourage the mom listening who feels like, I don't even know what to do here, day after day, as we spend time with God, we learn and we grow, and it changes who we are.
I have a few devotionals that we've written. [00:23:25] One is called The Better Mom Devotional. Another one is called Pressing Pause, and another one is called Settle My Soul. All three of those devotionals are meant for somebody who has just a little bit of time to get away, so you have a pocket of time, you have 10 minutes maybe, to spend time with God.
I would just really encourage the listener to grab one of those and start doing that every single day and see how God changes your heart through that. In those devotions, there's depth to them, even though they're short. There's even a little prayer and a place to write a few things if you want. But I think for me, the biggest thing has been just being consistent at spending time with God.
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I'm sure this looks different for every mom listening, but for you, with 18 years of experience, when was anger the most challenging to master, and when was it the easiest for you?
Ruth Schwenk: For me, the hardest years in the area of just anger or just frustration, lashing out just because I'm irritated or whatever, was probably when my kids were little. I feel like it also depends on external circumstances that are happening in my life. [00:25:32]
So I think we also need to recognize that. That it might be a very stressful season in my life because of something else going on, and so we're more prone because we're overwhelmed. We're stressed out by something else that, of course, is going to trigger. We're going to have less patience. All the stuff going on at home is only heightened because we're already stressed out about something else.
But I feel like I was probably the most susceptible. Well, I know I was the most susceptible to that when my kids were really little. And I think probably it was mostly because, well, hormonally, you know, of course, as you're having kids, things are just not right. And then, of course, the sleep deprivation. There's so many tedious little things that you're dealing with all the time. So I think that was probably when I was the most susceptible.
Laura Dugger: Oh, and I wonder if that's just going to be very encouraging to a lot of parents, maybe if their kids are really young. It sounds like that changes over time, specifically in relation to anger. [00:26:36]
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. I mean, as my kids have gotten older, it's so different. There's other things that are really hard and challenging, but I feel like I'm not triggered like that.
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. I love that you bring up that other things change because it's not a grass is greener on the other side or like a lie that we can buy into that, oh, in just a few years or at the next phase, this will get better. I'm sure we'll always have joys and challenges at the same time in every season.
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. And I think the biggest mistake we make is when we think once they're this age, it's going to be so much easier or I can just step back a little bit. It's like this battle for their hearts the whole time they're growing up.
I am a different person now than I was when my kids were little and moms will see that. Moms that are older that are listening are going to understand that you're different because God uses motherhood to change you. It's not only... obviously, we're meant to parent our kids, but God's changing us in this process as well. [00:27:35] As our kids get older, though, we are still battling to reach their hearts and to stay connected with them, and to point them to God.
Laura Dugger: Yes, and I don't want to derail completely. I cannot think of where it is. If it's 1st or 2nd Timothy, that kind of confusing verse where it talks about women will be saved through childbearing. There's so many different interpretations. Jesus, the one child being born, it's clear that that's our salvation or that some of the things from Eve are reversed through childbearing. There's so much commentary on it.
But one this week that I've been learning is that so much sanctification comes through the calling of raising children, not just the actual birth.
Ruth Schwenk: Absolutely. Sanctification, I mean, it brings out all those things that you thought you never struggled with are just brought to the surface when all of a sudden it's not all about you, but you have these other people to care for and to raise. [00:28:37]
Laura Dugger: As I'm thinking back of the whole of our conversation so far, when we were specifically talking about different myths that we may believe or different things that we need to realize are red flags because we could be deceived in certain areas or have just blind spots. And they're called blind spots because we're not aware of them.
But one thing you mentioned sounds like a very practical aid in this process, and that's having a mentor. You had mentioned Sally Clarkson. How did you enter into a mentor relationship, or how have mentors played a role in your life thus far?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I have always, since I was younger, always sought out older people. That's just, I guess, something I always did. And so whether it was locally in our church... or I would say through books. I mean, that's something my husband and I talk about all the time is people don't realize that really you can be mentored through books. [00:29:37]
Somebody gave me years ago, when I was starting to homeschool, they gave me a book called Educating the Wholehearted Child. This is literally like 20 years ago. It's by Clay and Sally Clarkson. It's an incredible book, not just about homeschooling, but just reaching your child's heart.
So they gave me this book, and I was just like, Oh, wow. It really turned me on to Sally's writing. So I then picked up a book by Sally called The Mission of Motherhood, and that changed my whole perspective on motherhood.
It was no longer that I was just trying to get through the day. I had a mission. I was reaching these children's hearts, teaching them about God. I was pointing them to Him with a mission to release them into the world to be His love and light.
So that's how I first became acquainted with Sally was actually through her books. Then when I started thebettermom.com, somebody connected me to her. [00:30:36] I was at a conference that she was at. I reached out to her, and we met in her hotel room. That kind of is where our friendship started.
She also became a contributor to thebettermom.com at that time, and I did some things with her ministry. And that's how I first met her. She would have these intensives at her house that were like retreats, and I went to a few of those. Now it's been 10 years since we've known each other, and my husband and I have been out to her house a few times as well to be with her and Clay.
But that's just one example of a mentor that, obviously, I feel like God orchestrated that. There's people all around us that we can reach out to, and I don't think it has to be something like, "Hey, would you be my mentor?" Although you may want to say that. But I just think it's about starting to get together with somebody who's older than you, starting to put yourself in proximity with them.
Maybe you have them over for dinner. Maybe you get together with coffee. [00:31:37] Maybe you ask them to get together. You be the one who reaches out to them. Because I think we all get in this spot where we're just waiting for somebody, waiting for somebody to come and help us.
If you feel like, oh my word, I don't even know anybody who could be that to me, that is the beauty of books. I mean, we have incredible podcasts. The things that we can learn and grow from things like that, they have one of the biggest impacts on me.
Laura Dugger: I like that, that you don't even have to label it as a mentor, be really rigid as to what the role needs to look like. But that just sounds wonderful, all of those applications. I have a few more practical topics that I want to ask you about, because you seem to be doing these well, and I just love hearing others' best practices. So can you teach us how you find time for replenishing self-care without feeling selfish? [00:32:37]
Ruth Schwenk: Well, this is pretty funny, because I guess I don't feel selfish. I mean, I feel selfish when I just do something like that for myself, because I feel like I'm giving all the time. Do you know what I mean? And I need that time to myself.
And I know probably a lot of us have heard this before, but Jesus needed time for himself, right? He got away. I think if we want to operate out of the best spot, we have to be able to step back, and we have to rest, and we have to refuel.
What this looks like is obviously different, depending on the season that we're in. But even when my kids were little, I was intentional. I might schedule a retreat for one night. I knew when I needed that time. And so if you're feeling like that, and you're like, Oh my word, I need some time away, I would just encourage you to talk to your husband about it, and schedule just even one night away. [00:33:37]
Find something that you can go to. Even getting away by yourself, maybe, to spend some time reflecting. Maybe you go to a hotel. Maybe you find a friend who wants to do that as well. We have to do it. We have to intentionally make time to refuel, especially when we have kids, and we're in the busy, because all of a sudden, a year goes by, and we're like, we are completely depleted, because we never intentionally took time, set aside for ourself.
I also think just daily there's self-care that happens. For me, I know I have to get up in the morning before my kids for a while. I mean, I'm an extrovert, but when your house is full of older kids that want to talk all the time, which I love, but you need that time. I need some time by myself.
If you have smaller children, that might mean at night, when they go to bed, because for me now, my kids don't go to bed until I... you know, I'm going to bed, and they're going to bed. So I don't have that nighttime anymore. So I have to do that in the morning. So it looks differently, obviously, whatever season you're in, but I think that it's about being intentional. [00:34:46]
Laura Dugger: Yes. I think that's the common thread, and I love how you are showing us that is actually possible. We just seize that opportunity. Another practical question then, how do you think we can create a God-honoring home environment?
Ruth Schwenk: Well, I would say it's never too late to start. Just being in ministry, we've seen so many families who aren't thinking about this until their kids are older, and they're like, it's too late. I would encourage you that it's never too late to start.
But I think creating a God-honoring home starts with us as parents and us living out our faith. So this looks like they're watching us. Of course, they're not expecting us to have it all together. I think the most powerful thing is that they see when we're reading our Bible in the morning, and they also see when one afternoon we say something mean that we didn't mean to say, and we have to apologize. [00:35:46]
I think it's real life lived out in front of them, continually pointing them to God. So maybe your family is facing something really hard, and you have to sit down with your kids, and you have to tell them, but you're letting them know, we can trust God. We've seen Him provide for us in the past. He's going to provide for us in the future. We know this is what God says about Himself. God is really a part of every ounce of our life.
And I think when our kids are watching that, and it's lived out by the parents, it has a greater impact than we realize. It's not a perfect faith lived out. It's a real faith lived out in front of them that I feel like has such an impact on them.
And finding every opportunity we can to point them to God and challenging them. I just sat down with my youngest daughter this past week, and I said, "What devotional are you reading every morning? Let's talk about that for a minute." And then I said, "Okay, I want you to make sure before you do anything else when you wake up in the morning that you read through this devotional. This will set you up for the day." [00:36:54]
So just checking in like that, really encouraging our kids to follow God. Just having that family mission and values and priorities is really a great way to set the tone for your home and your family following God. Just simply picking up a family devotional.
We have one that we just released in the past year called Faith Forward Family Devotional for a family with kids of all ages to sit down, read just a family devotional every night. Maybe it's when you're sitting around the dinner table. Maybe it's later on, right before everybody goes to bed. But just like some sort of a rhythm like that.
You just don't realize how over the years the impact that that can have on a child and then also just the impact it has on creating that God-honoring home that you so desire.
Laura Dugger: That sounds like an incredible first step for someone. So we're going to make it really easy and do a giveaway on social media this week for that devotional. So stay posted for that. [00:37:55]
And then just regardless of the time when somebody's finding this episode and listening, it doesn't matter what time of year it is, but I know that you have a simple practice for making time for the best things. So will you share more about your annual personal inventory?
Ruth Schwenk: Yeah. This kind of goes along with being proactive versus reactive and actually, it's something that Sally Clarkson taught me years ago at one of her intensives. I call it my yearly personal inventory. And what it is, is it's just a sheet of questions that I look at every year to see where I'm at, what things need to change.
I might list the things that I'm doing, maybe I think about the things that I just really don't want to do anymore or feel like they are interfering with some of my other priorities or whatever. So I might list things that I want to let go of in that year coming up or things I'm ready to take on that I feel like God's calling me to do. [00:39:02]
But it's so powerful for us, whether you do it once a year or every six months, it's like a recalibration. You're like, okay, where am I at here? What needs to change? What do I need to adjust? And I feel like if we can as families, as moms do this for ourselves personally, and then also for our family, it can have such an impact on how we spend our time. This is another download that I have that any mom can go through. Again, any time of the year you could go through this. And it's really just kind of a heart check and a life check to see where you're at and where you want to go moving forward.
Laura Dugger: That would be incredible to link to as well because I think for living an intentional life, this is a great place to begin is starting with that inventory. And so I think that will make it easy for everyone to follow through. And Ruth, you have so much more that you could teach us. Where can listeners follow up or find you online? [00:40:02]
Ruth Schwenk: I'm on Instagram. That's where I am a lot. On Instagram or actually on my Facebook page as well. And that's @RuthSchwenk.
Then we do have a podcast called Rootlike Faith Podcast. My husband and I both do that. So that's really if you're wanting to grow spiritually. We talk about all sorts of things for spiritual growth there. And then online, if you just go to thebetterlifeministry.com, that will direct you to all of our websites.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And you may be aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because 'savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so I would love to know, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Ruth Schwenk: This is really practical, I think. At least it really helps me. But every night before I go to bed, I'm usually the last one up and we all go to bed pretty late, but I'm usually the last one up.[00:41:02] And I make sure that everything is picked up and put in its proper place. I also have the kids, they take whatever they need to to their rooms or whatever.
But I spend probably 10 minutes before bed just picking up and making sure everything is cleaned up off the ground. I have one of those robot vacuums. Oh my word, that thing is a life changer. And I just hit it to run while I go to bed. So when I wake up in the morning, I can start my day fresh. Like there's nothing worse than walking downstairs and everything is a mess when you're trying to start your day. So it's such a fresh way to start the day.
Laura Dugger: That is incredibly savvy. I love that. Ruth, it's just no wonder that you have such a wide-reaching audience because you are kind and practical and genuinely helpful. So thank you for sharing all of your wise ways in order to help each of us live a more purposeful and intentional life worthy of that calling that we've received from God. [00:42:07] It was such an honor to host you as my guest today.
Ruth Schwenk: Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [00:43:06] Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:44:12]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:45:18]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Nov 09, 2020
Monday Nov 09, 2020
120. Our Story for His Glory with Mercedes Cotchery
**Transcription Below**
1 Corinthians 12:31 NIV “Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way."
Mercedes Cotchery is a devoted Christian, wife, and mother.
Her name, Mercedes, means Our Lady of Mercy and bestows its honor from the Virgin Mary. In her spirit, she has become a woman of many mercies, and a mother of many children – her name manifesting itself into her destiny.
As she thinks about her family, she likes to think that they are all chosen. She is a proud mother to five children – Jacey (13), Nicholas (9), Joshua (9), Journey (7), and Nile (3). They mean the world to her, bringing her immeasurable joy and invaluable life lessons from their day-to-day experiences. Every single day she learns something new about the people they’re becoming, about herself, and she sees the world a little brighter.
Now, she lives a life where most days she is able to stay at home with her children, homeschool them, and flourish together.
Currently living outside of Charlotte, North Carolina, she is also an NFL wife to Jerricho Cotchery. This has been an amazing journey, and it’s what brought them to the Queen City. They’ve been blessed to grow their love, grow their family, and grow in the Lord together. The great state of North Carolina has also blessed her with a unique opportunity to own a furniture store.
She believes in helping mommies all over find and pull out the phenomenon within them, to discover and celebrate their gifts of being Phenomenal Moms, or what she likes to call PheMoms. She even has a blog that is dedicated to the essence of PheMoms everywhere, to marriage & mommy moments, baby beauty, birthday parties, and families growing phenomenally in Christ.
Mercedes believes in pollinating beautiful experiences, and is also a speaker available for engagements and events related to home schooling, marriage, being a PheMom, and adoption.
Connect with Mercedes On Facebook and Instagram: @mercedescotchery and @designavenuehome
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
This conversation was such a gift. Mercedes Cotchery is my guest today, and she is a captivating storyteller and humble daughter of the King. We are going to cover topics relating to marriage, parenting, homeschooling, and race. And she covers everything with grace and truth. [00:01:19]
I hope you enjoy this time as much as I did. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mercedes.
Mercedes Cotchery: Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: Can you just begin by telling us a bit more about yourself?
Mercedes Cotchery: Yeah. I'll keep it simple. I'm a wife and a mother and a furniture shopkeeper. Together my husband and I have five children. This week, Lord willing, we will welcome our 24-year-old niece who will become a resident within our home as well. And so we are gonna work to kind of help her figure out what she wants to do in her career and also, by God's grace, try to disciple her and keep her just under our care.
Laura Dugger: Wow, well that's a lot to unpack right there. But let's just start with marriage. How did you meet Jericho, and what ups and downs have you experienced in your marriage? [00:02:18]
Mercedes Cotchery: So we met on the campus of NC State. And I know the exact day and everything. October 27th, 2001. We were introduced by mutual friends. Honestly, what has led to most of our downs, you know, was just that when we got together, neither of us knew how to appropriately live as a godly spouse for the other. Just kind of reflecting on it now, I feel like we simply thought that the institution of marriage in and of itself was enough to right our wrongs.
So, you know, with fornication or any of the other things that we might have done prior to being married, I think we thought that marriage would kind of satisfy that. It wasn't a spoken thing that we thought, but I guess our habits or the way that we lived kind of spoke to that.
Laura Dugger: What kind of families did you both come from, or also church families and belief systems? [00:03:20]
Mercedes Cotchery: So my husband, by God's grace in general, he was raised to believe in Jesus Christ, and he was expected to attend church. Now, he was a teenager. I wouldn't say typical, because some people grow up and never steer away from God. But he was, you know, not always obedient with what his mom's wishes were, but he never spent a day not knowing or believing in God and Jesus.
As for me, my mother did her very best, but my background actually was Jehovah's Witness. So when I was about four, my mom was napping. I don't remember the exact age, but when I tell this story, I say four. But my mom was napping on the sofa, and she woke up to me sobbing. And she asked what was wrong, and I just said with tear-filled eyes, "I don't want to die."
And so she jumped off the sofa and called my aunt, who is and was at the time a Jehovah's Witness, and we began having Bible study. [00:04:22] I would continue to have these studies both with my mother and on my own until I graduated from high school. I never was baptized in that faith or anything like that.
What that faith did for me was it just gave me rules, I guess. There were certain boundaries that I didn't cross, but there were some that I did, but I don't consider myself having been saved during those years. And so that was kind of our background.
And so then we get together, and I had a weird kind of thought process. I believed that I only committed two sins when I met my husband. One was fornication, and the other was profanity. Other than that, I just thought I was perfect.
So I would always kind of have these conversations with God because, you know, I still prayed and all those things. I'm not saying that those prayers were being answered, but I'm just... you know, with us, the culture that we grew up in, life being so hard and pressing upon you, you don't grow up not believing in God. [00:05:25] That was just foreign.
So I naturally prayed and all those things. And so I would always just kind of try to, in my own kind of twisted, weird, misinformed kind of way, but this just shows you how gracious God is. I would just say to Him, If you would send a husband my way, I would give you my heart. I'd give my life to you. I would get saved and live my life for you.
That was always kind of my prayer once I got to college. And especially in 2001 because prior to that, my family had experienced a hurricane and lost our home and lost everything. So I was kind of just displaced and having some issues in my relationships with my girlfriends. And so I was really beginning to pray more and more for a spouse.
So when I literally met my husband on October 27th, the next day was a Sunday, and that following Monday was going to be my birthday. So some of my friends got together and had a dinner for me, and they invited him the day after we met.
I went home that day from that dinner, and I just prayed, and I just said, "Lord, you know, I just met this gentleman, but if you'd have him be my husband, I think I could live forever for him, and I think that I could live for you with him." [00:06:36]
Me feeling this way about my future husband wasn't because he was just some model citizen. He did have a candor and a demeanor about himself that I was not accustomed to coming from a young man. He was very soft-spoken, very tender, very gentle, and I think that that is what made me think that he was the guy for me. We've been together ever since the day that we met.
And so I started asking my husband, my future husband, just questions to see where he was, who he was. You know, could you be with a girl that you didn't have premarital sex with? I'm just a girl on the scene, and he's thinking, okay, oh my gosh, what is going on? But he would answer the questions because he was just that polite. So he's like, yeah, you know, I could be with a girl that I wasn't intimate with.
And then I asked him, well, how many children do you want? Do you believe in God? Just started asking him all these things. [00:07:33] He doesn't know, but I had been praying some things to God, and I was ready to start living my life. I was older. I'm older than my husband, so I was just ready to start living my life.
And so he answered the questions, and we just kind of continued to court and be together. And 13 months into our relationship, he proposed to me.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I love hearing the background of that story. Can you also unpack a little bit then of your faith journey and your testimony? Because you said you wouldn't consider yourself saved before. So when did all of that change?
Mercedes Cotchery: So it gets tricky. You know, often in church, and I'm defining church as the collective church and not just the building for now. So often with church, people like to say, "Oh, I got saved on this day, and they give you specific things." I consider the year 2004, even though I started making these steps in 2001 and probably well before that. [00:08:33] 2004 was the year that I consider that I was saved.
So with me kind of growing up being a cultural Christian, and then I know that gets tricky because I mentioned Jehovah's Witness, but me being a cultural Christian, I aspired and desired to live for God. I just didn't know what that was, what that meant, what that looked like.
I still hadn't even heard the gospel yet when I was probing my husband and asking him all these questions. But the Lord had just so gracious and merciful, has been and was, at the time, just so patient with me.
I was working at a pharmaceutical company, GlaxoSmithKline. So as I was studying at the university, I was also simultaneously interning at a pharmaceutical company. The last department that I worked in at this pharmaceutical company before I would get married and move to Long Island, New York, there was a gentleman there, and he also went to NC State. [00:09:36]
He graduated with a degree in chemical engineering. He was about a year older than I was, and we called ourselves pals. He was Chinese, and I just loved this friend so much. He never told me that he was a Christian. I just knew that he was. And so the Lord saw fit for my time with him to line up with my time meeting my husband.
So as the Lord was having me have this paradigm shift that I really didn't know that I was having, I was still thinking that I was in control, and I was just trying to order my steps and get ready to become what I thought was a good Christian, Hal and I, we were working on some physical test with the drug that we were working on, and I just started asking him questions about God and Jesus and he just started answering them for me. He invited me to attend church with him.
Now, because of my experience with Jehovah's Witnesses, there were things about the Orthodox Christian faith at the time that I wasn't ready to accept. [00:10:41] And so going to this particular non-denominational church was just what the doctor had ordered for my heart.
They weren't pushy. You didn't have to look a certain way. We were just an eclectic bunch of people. Now Hal was the only Chinese, and I was the only Black American there, but none of that mattered because we were all just really unique.
The church met in a unique spot. Hal introduced me to the pastor and invited me to a community group, and I just kind of slowly began my life. Then I would eventually get baptized by this pastor. He did our premarital counseling. And I'll never forget the day before I got baptized in [Raleigh or Durham? 00:11:25] he just took a few moments, this pastor, to just explain a few things.
Even when I look back at it now, I can't believe that as immature and young as I was in my faith, I grasped what he was saying. [00:11:42] It wasn't that his words were profound or ambiguous or difficult to understand. It was just that my heart could receive it. And I know that that's a gift from God.
What he shared was that every single one of you here have been saved before today. Your baptism does not save you, and you have been taking steps to this day for a while prior to this point. That resonated with me so much because I knew that in 2001, I had started taking steps. It was so important for me to hear that your baptism didn't save you.
I can't really say that I knew that prior to that moment, but I grasped all of that before the Lord allowed my flesh to touch that water, so that I would never be deceived to think that that water did something to me, that I would always know that it was by the Holy Spirit, which is a gift from God.
And ever since the day that I've been baptized, but honestly, ever since the day that I met my husband, for the most part, not perfectly, I have been on fire for the Lord, not because of me, but because of who God is. [00:12:56] My husband wasn't exactly where I was, not as fervent as I was, but by God's grace, he did get there. I've been going after the Lord ever since.
Laura Dugger: Mercedes, that is so powerful to hear your story. We know that Jesus tells us in the Bible that Jesus is the author and the perfecter of our faith, and so it just never gets old hearing every person's individual story. Your gentleness is so apparent throughout, but also your contentment is displayed in your adoption story. So will you elaborate on your journey to adoption?
Mercedes Cotchery: As a young girl in junior high, about the fifth or sixth grade, I had a friend. She was incredibly tall for her age. She just looked like a woman at a very early age. All of my friends they all just began to pass me by and enter into womanhood, but I did not. [00:14:02]
So by seventh or eighth grade, I began speaking as if I was there, but I didn't know for sure. My body, by God's grace, just developed very normally. I just never developed a menstrual cycle.
So by seventh and eighth grade, my friends and I would begin to speak about surrogacy, and one of my dear friends would say that she would be my surrogate. Obviously, we were children. We didn't know what we were saying, but somehow we just knew that I was barren.
I would continue along this path, and then the summer prior to entering my senior year, I went to Governor's School, and I got pretty ill. I would often get ill if I got too hot. And living in the South, you're often too hot in the summertime because it's hot.
This particular summer, you know, walking to and from class on a collegiate campus, though I wasn't yet a college student, it was the summer before my senior year, it was probably just a little bit more than my body could take. [00:15:05]
Our menstrual cycle is a woman's way of cleansing itself, and those things didn't happen for me. And so somehow I ended up seeing a gynecologist. I don't necessarily know how I went from being ill, and my mom decided that I needed to see a gynecologist, but by God's grace, that was the order of my steps.
I saw a female doctor, and she administered a pap smear for me, and right away, before an ultrasound or anything, her first inclination was just to say, "You know, I don't feel a uterus." She said, "I can't say for sure, but we'll have an ultrasound, and after that point, we'll know."
A few weeks later we had an ultrasound, and she analyzed the results, and she confirmed that her initial hypothesis was true, that I didn't have a uterus. I don't remember if she knew the term for the disorder.
There's several different terms. One is pretty long. I don't know if I can pronounce it. Let's see. Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome. That simply just means to be born without a uterus. [00:16:14] By God's grace, because I found out at such a young age, and I was still pretty naive, I was never really broken by it.
Where I'm from, and kind of the state of the world now, people were somewhat relieved, I guess, that I couldn't have children. I was a studious child. Well, not studious, but pretty intelligent, and so people were thankful that possibly having a child out of wedlock would not be something that will hold me back.
Now, it's sad that people thought that way, but I understood that ideology. In a weird way, I kind of wore this condition as a badge of honor. And then, you know, being exposed to Jehovah's Witnesses, sometimes they take scriptures pretty legalistically, and I don't mean that in a bad way. But this was where the Lord allowed me to draw the good. [00:17:13]
Often, because Jehovah's Witnesses think so much about end times, there's a verse that speaks about how you can be blessed when you don't have children, because, in end times, you won't have to worry about wrangling your small children. You can just focus on trying to get yourself together for the Lord.
And so often the person that I was studying with, and another one of my aunts, just made me feel like it was kind of a gift, and so I feel like that was the Lord's way of protecting me from this. So I never saw this condition as a bad thing. I saw it as a gift from God.
Now, my mother did mourn, and I asked her... right away when we were told, I asked her, "Mommy, why are you crying?" I don't remember what she said, but I didn't shed a tear about this until 2006, you know. So I found this out in like 1998 or 1997, and it took about seven or eight years before I even cried. [00:18:15] And it wasn't crying because I couldn't. But I learned to be content through my faith.
So once my husband and I got married, and we moved to Long Island, he played for the New York Jets, and we had a wonderful chaplain there, and he had a remarkable wife who was exceptionally patient and long-suffering. She would take the wives, and we would go through scriptures and write notes on our… whatever we were studying, and she would answer all of our questions.
She was the first wife that ever discipled me. And this would go on for years. Then about two years after her being under her tutelage, another wife took us, and we started studying some of Priscilla Shire's books, you know, He Speaks to Me, and kind of all those things, her earlier books.
So through those studies, my heart began to wonder, why did God allow me to be born without a uterus? Though science can say one thing, the Lord could have easily given me a uterus. [00:19:19] That's a very easy thing for Him.
Scripture asks the rhetorical question, what is too hard for the Lord, and obviously, the answer to that is nothing. And so it wasn't too difficult for the Lord to give me a uterus. He just chose not to.
So I drew into my God by His grace, and I asked Him, why did you have me be born this way? What is it that you have of me? I think about Paul in Acts. Some of the other versions with Paul's conversion don't pose the question of Paul asking God, what do you wish for me to do? But the King James asks that question. So when I think about my time with the Lord during this period in 2006, I think about Him just asking God. So studying and reading His Word and praying brought me to adoption.
Initially, when I had those thoughts, I can't say that I was content. [00:20:20] It was something that I desired to do, but a little I still desired to have biological children, but in time even that would completely go away, actually in like a few months.
All that to say that I'm content because I'm content in the Lord, and His ways are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts. But He is wiser than I can comprehend, and so if He has decided that I don't need a uterus, then I agree, and I have decided that I don't need a uterus.
And then the natural process of reasoning and logic lead me to believe that since I don't need a uterus, then I also don't need biological children, and then I can be content in that. And I am so content in it.
Laura Dugger: Your peace and purpose that came through that entire journey is incredibly inspiring. [00:21:21] First of all, I'm so honored to get to sit under your teaching and learn this from you. And then also it's so apparent that God has clearly used your story and your exact makeup and design to bear much fruit. Because you did mention you and Jericho now are the parents of five children. Could you tell us a little bit more about their age range and life right now?
Mercedes Cotchery: My oldest, she will turn 13 on Monday, so we will officially have a teenager. I just want to say she works so hard, I could cry now, and she tries so hard to please us. We know that ultimately she needs to please God, but we're so thankful at just how hard she tries. It's just beautiful to see what we require of her for school is not normal, and she just humbly and softly and sweetly and graciously tries to do what we ask. [00:22:28]
Then we have two 9-year-old sons, one will turn 10 in November. Next we have a 7-year-old girl. She is a firecracker, like seriously, for real. And our baby is three, and he will turn four in September.
It's absolutely crazy. I'm speaking softly and quietly and gently, but it's absolutely crazy to have five children and homeschool and be a wife and a shopkeeper and love Jesus and all the things. It is crazy.
Laura Dugger: I think that's a very real picture. Just with sometimes all the chaos that comes with having a wonderful house full of people, do you find yourself ever having to raise your voice or experience that chaos? [00:23:29]
Mercedes Cotchery: Oh, yeah. Sometimes I think that as parents and moms, we don't talk enough about the reality of being parents. Sometimes I feel like that's how people end up thinking that maybe their children need help outside of the home. I'm in no way saying that they don't. But children are born sinners, and it is shown every single day.
And to raise your children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord takes work. To do anything well in a way that pleases God takes work. It's not easy. It's years of training. That's why children are born children and not adults, because they need to be taught to be an adult.
So this voice gets raised all day, every day, because that is what it takes. That is what it takes. Now, not being belligerent or yelling or sinning. Not that I've never sinned by yelling at my children, but that is not my normal and typical way of being. But it takes some serious chops. Because children want to go their way and we need them to go the way of the Lord. [00:24:36]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Many of us listening have now experienced life as a homeschooling parent, or some maybe are currently choosing to homeschool their children. So I think it would be wonderful to gain some tips from a veteran in this area. You've been at this for years, so are there any systems or rhythms that make homeschooling a joy for both you and your children?
Mercedes Cotchery: Preparedness is what will make it a joy, and that's something that we cannot take lightly. We have to prepare for our children each day. Anything that we do takes work. [00:26:38] So today, I woke up at 4:45 AM, right, because I knew all that I needed to do.
This isn't to make people feel guilty about having a checklist, or this isn't about that, this is just being real. Like, if there's a certain fruit that I want to be produced, then I need to put in the work and sow those seeds with God's help.
So at 4:45, I woke up to make sure that my mind was set for what you've blessed me to do. Then after that, I needed to make sure that my lesson plan was ready for my soon-to-be 13-year-old because she has Latin and logic and all kinds of things. This week, she needs to write, by God's grace, an outline on a historic American character. She needs to do five lessons in her logic booklet. She has to write an anti-chart. That's an outline for a story that she has to write for a persuasive essay. [00:27:36]
She has to go through an entire lesson of Latin with the second declension. She has to write a little blurb about herself. And I'm forgetting probably three other subjects that she has to do, right? So I knew I needed to be on with you at noon, but I had to do justice to what she needed to do.
In addition, my two 9-year-olds are learning to write papers, and so we had to work on their keyword outline and kind of introduce some mechanics of the English language to them. They needed to study some vocabulary so that they can broaden their palate and be able to bask in the 600,000 words that we have in the English language. Then that doesn't even mention my two younger children, which, by God's grace, I have a nanny, and so she kind of will deal with them for me.
But all that to say that I don't necessarily have to use the words systems or rhythms, just period. [00:28:39] I need to be prepared for my children so that I'm not caught off guard by the day and that I'm not giving myself an excuse to sin. Because sin is going to show its face in my day anyway. And so the ways that I can alleviate that so that I can meet my children with gentleness, so that as we are together, not only are they hearing me make much of the name of Christ, but they're also simultaneously seeing me live like I truly do make much of the name of Christ.
And then in the moments where I fall short and I live in contradiction to what I confess, then I can go to them and also humbly apologize and repent and tell them where I was wrong. That's really what I try to make a habit of doing. On days when I don't prepare for my children, those days are not good. They are not good days.
Laura Dugger: I think that brings up the other side, because there are two sides to everything. So what are the struggles that you've encountered with homeschooling? [00:29:41]
Mercedes Cotchery: One, it's a lot of work. It's a lot for a parent to have to do all of the subjects. And not only that, but you also have to introduce new things to your children while holding them accountable to the prior things that they've learned. So keeping up with making sure that you're checking the work that they do, being consistent, being diligent.
And then when they're younger, not growing bored with the repetition because that's really how we learn. We learn through repeating the same thing until we master it. And then once we master it, we take it up a notch. And that it's like walking up a set of stairs. You cannot get to the fifth step until you've walked up steps one, two, three, and four.
So for me, the difficulty of just being consistent and making sure that I understand the importance of laying the foundation so that we can build on it and being prepared for it all. [00:30:41]
Laura Dugger: I think we can just glean a lot of wisdom and parenting in general from you. So from your 13 years of experience, a few questions, one, just for fun, is there any age that has come most naturally for you to parent or any age that has really been most commonly your struggle with your kids?
Mercedes Cotchery: So, babies, infants, by God's grace, are one of my gifts. I can get an infant on a schedule like nobody's business, where they're feeding three hours a day, sleeping for about three hours until they need that next bottle, and really kind of training children in those very young years.
The ages that are difficult, the two, three, and four. And it's simply because now they're beginning to talk. And to a 2-year-old, they've only lived for two years, and to them, that's like a thousand years because they feel like they've been here forever. [00:31:44]
That same thing kind of progresses with being three and four. So convincing your child that they are a child is special. So, yes, those are the difficult years.
And I'm realizing with my 13-year-old, I don't know because we kind of have just gotten here, my soon-to-be 13-year-old. But I noticed that I don't have to be as brassy with her. It actually encourages me to parent the way that I have parented so far, because it gets softer and easier if I can be consistent with the work that it takes.
But the trick is that as my children are getting older, I'm also getting older. And I noticed last week I have lost a bit of my step. That's what athletes say. Like if my husband, you know, if you're not as agile or as fast, you've lost this step. And so I have lost a bit of my step. So with my children getting older, it is a lot more difficult for me to have the same endurance that I had 13 years ago. [00:32:49]
I mean, if one little thing went wrong with my 13-year-old when she was a baby, maybe she didn't nap as long. Maybe she didn't eat as much one day, I would go straight to the Lord and pray and ask him to reveal to me how I could help her.
If we were going to fly on an airplane, I would practice with her at home so that I could make sure that she would nap on the plane in my lap. I would really nest over what it is that I needed to do to help us be successful on this airplane. Or whatever it is that we were going to do with her, I had time to practice for it.
But as I get to child five, I don't have the same amount of time to spend with each individual child because now every child needs something. So though the ages two, three, and four get harder in general, parenting has gotten more difficult.
But the beauty of it is... you know, 1 Timothy 2:15 tells us that moms are saved through child-rearing. [00:33:47] And so in the same way that I'm trying to emphasize the importance of having a plan and being methodical as we homeschool our children so that we can try to alleviate some of the issues that we might run into during the day because things are going to happen, you know, the Lord allows us for the most part to have children kind of one at a time so that you grow with them.
And so now having five kids, it's like someone just opened a fire hose and they just shot it in my face. The Lord was patient. He's still patient, but he was very patient early on to allow me to grow gradually. Now as my children were growing and I was teaching them, I was growing in my endurance. As in these later years, I'm losing a little bit of my step, I now have this work ethic. So maybe I'm not as swift or sharp as I was, but I can work harder now than I could 13 years ago.
Laura Dugger: That's so interesting to hear that whole progression. [00:34:48] Even on a super practical level, what chores and schedules, and lessons are happening in your house right now?
Mercedes Cotchery: I spend so much time kind of homeschooling and teaching. My children do have chores, but I'm not so purposeful that like this week so and so does this. So what happens is I enjoy being a homemaker and our lives are a little different than most. So sometimes we have people that help us clean. Right now I do not have a person who helps me clean. Don't I need one? But I also have a nanny.
So my children don't have set chores, but they can do everything. I try to make sure that school is their primary focus. And because I know that we ask a lot of them, I don't weigh them down with other things. You know, they don't wake up thinking, oh, my goodness, I have to do this today. It's just that if there's time, you know, because we train them to be obedient and respectful, for the most part, they are not perfect, if we call upon them for something, they are eager to help. [00:35:51]
Even my 9-year-old sons know how to clean the kitchen. Cleaning the kitchen is not necessarily their job, but on a day where mommy is weak or she needs rest, I've fallen behind because as perfect as I may sound, I am a procrastinator.
So when I need them, they know how to either wash the dishes by hand or load the dishwasher, dry them, put them away. And then every morning when before they come downstairs, they spread their beds. You know, they do their chores. They put their clothing away. They make sure their rooms are neat for the most part before they come downstairs, because very rarely do we go back upstairs until bedtime.
Then when we have our meals, they're responsible for just making sure that their dishes either get put away. Often we eat out of paper plates since there's so many. And these people like to eat and we're eating like three meals a day and a snack. So they make sure that they kind of discard their things. [00:36:47]
They don't often clean the restrooms. I think I've let my oldest do that twice, but one of my sons, my oldest is so good at helping me garden. So he loves to pull weeds for me. Our driveway is abnormally long, like where when we have to take our trash, sometimes we drive it down.
So my sons are very good at taking the trash cans and the recycling bin down to the end of the street or bringing those back. But they don't specifically have chores.
I really like them to focus on their studies and focus on trying to be catechized and have a practical understanding of who our savior is, hoping that one day He will take over their hearts and what we've tried to place in their hearts will become a real reality for them. So for whatever reason, yeah, my heart just... I just really want them to obey us and do school. Those are their chores. Those are their jobs. [00:37:46]
Laura Dugger: You've also alluded to all these different roles that you're simultaneously carrying. So how do you personally make the most of your many roles without sacrificing your main priorities?
Mercedes Cotchery: I will say it's not easy, but I see my main role as a daughter of the King and so then everything else stems from that. And I found that when I'm faithful to working on who I am in Christ, being a daughter of the King, I can get all my other roles in check.
Now being a shopkeeper really, really does stretch me. I have a great store manager, so I only have to be at the store twice a week. When my husband purchased the store for me, I was exceptionally naive and I didn't know how much of me would be required. And it does require a lot more of me than I had planned. [00:38:45]
But I'm faithful to my priorities first. So it's being a follower of Christ, being a wife and then a mother, and then a shopkeeper. And if I don't lose that order, I can do a pretty decent job at everything within reason, because obviously I fall short.
Then I have to be honest, my husband is at home right now. He's not coaching football this year or playing, and he really blesses me beyond measure. He went to the store for me yesterday and he had to do a few tasks that needed some manpower.
When I went to kind of shower and get dressed for my time with you, he watched with my sons as they kind of worked through their keyword outlines. But the secret to all of it is just knowing who I am in Christ and knowing my limitations. The Lord is infinite, but I am not, and I cannot do all things. He can do all things. [00:39:50]
Laura Dugger: That is such a good word and a reminder we can't have enough of. And it's just helpful to hear the real picture, like what hands go into it and what our responsibilities are. And you're right that we are finite. What other wisdom and truth have you clung to from the Lord that helped you fight false guilt, especially as it relates to having a career in addition to caring for a family?
Mercedes Cotchery: The first question you should ask yourself is just why am I feeling this way? Don't put it in the column of false guilt or real guilt, just why. When we enter into a right relationship with God, we spend a lifetime being sanctified. And this sanctification is working on our inner man, like our heart, our mind, the spirit portion of us.
So when we align the spirit portion of ourselves with God and His will, our intuition kicks in. [00:40:50] So if we're doing something and it makes us feel guilty, I'm not saying that we should necessarily feel guilty about it, but there's a reason.
So what I do is I think about Hebrews chapter 12, and I consider... This portion will come from James, but I consider all hardship as instruction from the Lord. And so whenever I feel guilty, because I do, I try to really reason and ask myself, okay, why am I feeling this way? And often it's something that I either did or I'm not doing well enough.
So for example, if I go to my shop and I have to leave my children, there's nothing wrong with having time away from your children, but why am I feeling guilty today that I'm leaving my children? Well, the real reason that I'm feeling guilty today is because on the days when I was able to be home with my children, I wasn't fully emotionally available to them. So now this one day that I get to go away to the shop, I feel guilty because my mind is telling me I should be with my children. [00:41:53]
So what this guilt is going to teach me is that when I have the opportunity to be with my children, be with them, be present with them, and love on them as much as I can so that when I'm away, this false guilt won't even creep into my mind. Or if it does, I can denounce it and say, No, on Tuesday I did this, this, this with the kids, you know, like I can speak to it. But I never completely discount my guilt, I try to reason through it. And Isaiah admonishes us to reason.
Laura Dugger: That is so beneficial. Thank you. I feel like you've kind of helped me, encouraged me to slow down that process and another way to get to the root of it. Something else I'm just learning a lot about right now is spiritual gifts. And I love asking other people about theirs. So do you happen to know yours?
Mercedes Cotchery: I feel like anything that you're good at, that you use to bring God glory can be a gift. [00:42:57] The things that I'm good at, I think, cause it doesn't sound so humble, but I think that I'm good at teaching by God's grace. I'm good at reasoning and logic, loving, and that is the one that gets me so emotional, and adoption and marriage have taught me that.
But one thing that I would like to take the time to discuss now are the gifts of the spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Before COVID people would learn that at homeschool and just say, "Oh, you must be so patient." And I learned that as a believer, we all should be working towards those gifts of the spirit because since the Holy Spirit indwells us and that indwelling came at the point of conversion salvation, those are all gifts that we should have. [00:44:00]
Now, my husband, for example, he is exceptionally gifted with the gift of patience. I'm just going to be a normal Christian with patience that he is like... patience is actually one of his gifts in the way that love is my gift.
Laura Dugger: I am just nodding along as you're sharing, Mercedes, because just through this conversation, even I can see those gifts that God has supernaturally given you. I love how you summarized it just saying that anything that we are good at, and that does bring him glory, that that can be a gift.
Mercedes Cotchery: Yeah, because you should be sharing it with others. Like my oldest, you know, she has lots of gifts, but a gift that I love seeing through her isn't a gift that's listed in scripture. She has an abnormal work ethic. That girl just works so hard. [00:45:00]
And that's something that she can share with her siblings because she's worked so hard and laid a foundation for our homeschool. She's able to gently go behind and help them learn things or show them how she did things based on the work that she's put in.
But for you, you should even consider what you do as a podcaster. You spend your time doing this. You were so well with corresponding with me and when I was terrible with corresponding with you and keeping us on task and just being organized, you know. Like you dedicate your time to do this away from your children. And it is something that you are doing for the glory of God.
You should definitely consider that you're gifted in this. I'm sure you have 7,000 other gifts, but I would encourage you obviously to consider the gifts of the spirit, but consider things that you do daily and take them before the Lord and just ask Him, you know, does He believe that this is a gift of yours. [00:46:01]
But your gifts, where you start looking for your gifts is you consider what your life looks like. And so like adoption being one of my gifts. At every point in my life, I've had a friend that was adopted. So as I started looking to see if adoption was something that the Lord had for me, I took a survey of my life to see like, what about my life looks like adoption before I just consider this a gift of mine, what about my life looks like I could be gifted in loving others, what about my life looks like I'm good at teaching, you know, what about my life speaks to the fact that my reasoning, critical thinking and logical skills, what about my life looks like those could be gifts. Your life is your proof for these things.
So, again, like everything else, you start with a question. What are my gifts? Not that you're asking me, because you know what yours are, but for anyone, this is what I do for myself. What are my gifts? And then you hypothesize what you think one gift is. And then as you lay the framework to prove whether or not this truly is your gift, take a survey of your life to see what about your life looks like what you hypothesized is a gift. [00:47:19]
Laura Dugger: I feel like you can't help, but be encouraging. And I just really appreciate that. Thank you for those kind words.
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I would be remiss not to learn from you with another important conversation. [00:48:19] So, Mercedes, what has been your experience with the current state of our nation and our world?
Mercedes Cotchery: We know what you're speaking of, but I just want to be specific. The state of our nation and our world as it relates to race relations. For me, by God's grace, I have always been around people of other ethnicities. You know, in the kindergarten. So I spent half of the kindergarten in North Carolina and the other half in Virginia.
So in North Carolina, my very best friend, my first best friend, she was an Anglo-Saxon, White. And then when I went to Virginia to finish the second half, my best friend there was Filipino. And so I've always been saturated with all different kinds of people by God's grace.
When I look out into the world, I'm grieved. [00:49:21] Again, I'm full of hope, but I'm deeply grieved. People who are not Christians, I love them and they don't grieve me. But it's the people of God who grieve me the most. Because with so much chaos and confusion going on right now, we need to be able to read scripture and allow that to resonate with us in a practical way.
But because we have taken on so many ideologies and things of the world, even professing Christians don't truly have a biblical worldview. And so when you are a professing Christian and you know scriptures, but you don't genuinely have a biblical worldview, you can't make God's word practical without a mediator. It's almost like you need another medium to explain something to you.
What I'm not saying is that we shouldn't sit down and be in community and fellowship with one another to understand what things mean. [00:50:25] Scripture is hard. But what I am saying is that you don't have to go get a sociology book to teach you how to love your neighbor. Love your neighbor is a command and we abide in our commands, which are imperatives because our indicative natures have been changed because we've been saved by Jesus.
And so if you are a Christian, you should be able to love your fellow man because skin color is such an outward adornment and it has nothing to do with who we are in Christ together. Christians are a chosen race and we are closer to one another than any other relationship.
Paul does such a remarkable job of spelling this out in his books and how he speaks about how we should have one mind. The way that he even speaks about the Father and the Son so fluently, because it's clear for him. When I look out into the world, heart is broken that most people see my skin color and they put more value in that than they do in my standing with the Lord and my heart to contend for the faith. [00:51:39]
I love people so much. When I encounter a believer, I'm not guarded. I'm so ready to pour my love out on them, invite them over, give them tea, coffee, let's have a party, let's go to the spa. But when I do that for people who feel like they need to know everything about me before, it ends up not being the way that it plays out in my head.
So my heart is just that. Christians would stop looking outwardly and stop looking at what is going on in the world and really take God at His word and trust scripture and trust that when two people are not the same ethnicity, you can have a real conversation. And the conversation, if one person is Chinese and one person is Black, or if one person is Anglo-Saxon, the other person is Black, trust that the Black person doesn't need to be the only voice in the conversation because your trust ultimately isn't in that person, your trust is in God. [00:52:49]
So if both of you have a relationship with God, trust Him. Let's work this thing out. Let's have a real conversation to see how we can be knit together all the more so that as the world is thrown into a mass amount of chaos, let us bask in the unity that we have in Christ.
We have been baptized into a collective unity. Live according to that. Our lives are not chaotic just because the world has chaos.
Laura Dugger: I think that is so beautifully said. I'm going to summarize what I heard so you can correct me where I'm wrong. But what I hear you saying is our identity at the core is either Christ follower or unbeliever. So if that is our core identity as believer or not, then the believers are the ones that you're calling to step up into a biblical accurate worldview that is global. [00:53:55] That what they look at and see is our commonality in Christ. Is that accurate for what you're saying?
Mercedes Cotchery: Yes. Sometimes we put so much emphasis and connection to our ethnic makeup. And don't get me wrong. I am so thankful to the Lord to have been born a Black American woman. I think that there are so many things that come with being Black that have benefited me in my faith.
I think that every ethnicity should find the things that God has riddled in their ethnicity to help them in their faith. But there are just so many in mine and I love it. You know, from my ancestors being slaves, you know, so that it's nothing for me to be a slave for Christ. I mean, it's beautiful to be a person of color for me because I just like to pull the good out of everything. But ultimately, my allegiance is to Christ, and so I love all of God's people. [00:54:53]
Sometimes I'm finding now that as my Anglo-Saxon or White brothers and sisters are trying to figure out what they should do, sometimes they are attaching themselves to things that really aren't biblical. You know, like the Black Lives Matter campaign. So now for me, do I think that the lives of Black people matter? I absolutely do.
Does it make me sad even sometimes when people say, well, blue lives matter, too? That does make me sad, even though the lives of police officers matter because all lives matter, you know. But my point I wanted to bring it up is that, again, as Isaiah reminds us to reason and then logic comes from reasoning, you know, as a Christian, you are supposed to view everything through a biblical lens. We are to have a biblical worldview.
And so a lot of the research and the ideologies that the Black Lives Matter campaign has comes from inductive reasoning. I personally am a deductive reasoning type of person, and it's my belief that kind of all Christians should be because deductive reasoning starts with a statement, a thesis, a belief. [00:56:00]
And so our belief is from Christ. That is our presupposition. And then from that presupposition, then we form all of our beliefs and our opinions.
Inductive reasoning does the opposite. They see something out in the world, right? For example, they see Black people being mistreated or what they believe is the mistreatment of Black people, and then they work in reverse to get to the top, to get to that thesis, to get to that statement. When you do that, it leaves God out. But you're supposed to start with God and then deduct your conclusions.
Laura Dugger: That is so well put. I feel like we could spend an entire other podcast unpacking all of the wisdom there and then the practical application. But thank you for sharing and just being able to talk about this difficult topic with biblical roots and encouraging us to start there. [00:56:59] I just say yes and amen to all of that. This time has been so enjoyable. I would love for listeners to be able to connect with you after this conversation. So where can they find and follow you online?
Mercedes Cotchery: Well, the first place that I would love for everyone to follow me is on Instagram @DesignAvenueHome, all spelled out. And that page showcases my shop. I hope that you would purchase some candles from my online candle shop.
The second place that you can find me is on my personal page on Instagram, and that's @MercedesCotchery, all spelled out. My website is Mercedes-cotchery.com. I have blogs there and some encouragement for moms.
Facebook has the same handles as Instagram for Mercedes Cotchery and Design Avenue Home. And I would love to connect with everyone. And yeah, they can send questions or anything that they like. [00:58:02]
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes and Resources tab of our website. And you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge, and we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Mercedes Cotchery: It's cheating. Let me tell you. Okay. So I'm so good at winging it and that's my secret. I don't encourage anyone to be a winger. But with speaking and all those things, it's like I can just figure things out on the go, on the fly.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Well, you are so incredibly gifted in so many areas. Mercedes, your gentleness is so attractive. I've really enjoyed this opportunity to connect with you. You are a woman living on mission and it's inspiring for each of us listening to get to do the same as we follow Jesus and fully surrender to the call He has on each of our lives. [00:59:16] So I'm very grateful to have been able to host you as my guest today.
Mercedes Cotchery: No, thank you. And I just want to say to you, you are incredibly gracious. All of the compliments that you have thrown my way, they really belong to you.
I'm just so overwhelmed by how you are unapologetically putting out good news and you're not trying to have a podcast where you're saying it's a Christian podcast and we're going to mention Jesus and we're going to mention God, but it's really something else. What a gift you are. How thankful I am to have had you give me this opportunity.
I pray that nothing will ever come in your way where it makes you waver in what you're doing. That you will never compromise truth. You have just blessed me with that. I'm just thankful to you.
I pray that all of your listeners get that from you. I pray that that's why they all actually listen, it's because when they listen to you, it's not just entertainment, it is truly godly entertainment where once they're done, they're going to be better with God. [01:00:25]
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness. I have a quivering voice and tears in my eyes. To God be the glory. Thank you, Mercedes.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [01:01:26] Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [01:02:25]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [01:03:25]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Nov 02, 2020
Monday Nov 02, 2020
*This episode includes some adult themes and is not intended for little ears*
119. Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
**Transcription Below**
Hebrews 12:1b+2a (AMP) “stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us, [looking away from all that will distract us and] focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the Author and Perfecter of faith [the first incentive for our belief and the One who brings our faith to maturity],”
Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington are clinical psychologists who met and married during their studies at the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology. They live in Pasadena, California with their two children (Samuel: 15 & Naomi: 11), where they have a group practice with the internationally recognized sex therapists Cliff and Joyce Penner.
The Symington's share a passion for helping individuals and couples move towards greater freedom, aliveness, and intimacy. Within their general practice, this passion has led to sub-specialties in marital and sex therapy; treating anxiety disorders; and integrating spirituality into the change process. In addition to their clinical work, they teach, write, and speak on a range of topics, including the key ingredients of marital passion and intimacy; and the practical application of mindfulness principles to anxious worries, destructive moods, and other barriers to happiness. Here are a couple new highlights/developments:
- Dr. Scott Symington – With the release of his recent book, Freedom from Anxious Thoughts & Feelings: A Two-Step Mindfulness Approach for Moving Beyond Fear & Worry (New Harbinger Publications 2019), Scott, in addition to his private practice, has been busy teaching, training, and presenting on his Two-Screen Method—the user-friendly-application of mindfulness featured in his book.
- Dr. Melissa Symington – Alongside her clinical work, Melissa has been publishing blogs on relational intimacy and enjoying teaching human sexuality at Fuller Graduate School of Psychology as an adjunct professor.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Freedom from Anxious Thoughts and Feelings by Dr. Scott Symington
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Episodes (Referenced During This Interview)
Episode 18: 7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Dwell is an audio Bible app our family recently discovered, and now we love it. Dwell's mission is simple: to help you get in the Word and stay in the Word. And I think that is the ultimate practical application for intentional living. Visit dwellapp.io/savvy to get a 20% discount today.
There is so much to learn from today's episode. Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington are my guests. They are both licensed clinical psychologists in Pasadena, California, and we're going to cover topics ranging from ways to live more fully alive and free, to sexual intimacy in marriage, including the role our relationships and our brains play in sex, and practical applications for enjoying our marriage more. [00:01:27]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Drs. Scott and Melissa.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Thank you. Morning.
Dr. Scott Symington: Thank you. Great to be with you.
Laura Dugger: Your story is very unique, and I'm assuming that you get asked this all the time, but how did the two of you meet?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Well, we met in graduate school at Fuller Theological Seminary. We were both pursuing our PhDs in clinical psychology. In my second year, and in Scott's first year, I was the TA. So on my very first day, I went to my room. I got there 45 minutes early, and I was going to set everything up and write my name on the board.
I walked in, and there is this dude sitting in my class. And I was so upset that he was sitting there. I just really wanted the space to get set up and to kind of set the stage and he's sitting in there. I was thoroughly annoyed with him. And of course, it was Scott. [00:02:26]
Dr. Scott Symington: In contrast, this beautiful woman walks in, and I think to myself, "This is going to be a great quarter."
Dr. Melissa Symington: We didn't start dating until way past the grades we're in, when the class was over.
Dr. Scott Symington: And then there's been a lot of life that's happened since then, because that was year...
Dr. Melissa Symington: 2000.
Dr. Scott Symington: Wow, year 2000. We have two children, Samuel and Naomi. Samuel's 15, Naomi is 11, and we're here in Pasadena, California.
We have a group practice here in Pasadena, working mainly with adults, individuals, and couples. And yeah, we've got a full life here, including being very involved in our church, La Cañada Presbyterian Church.
A lot of life has happened since that first encounter, where we had very different experiences internally. But we did sort of get on the same page shortly after.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: I love that story. It makes me wonder, as you think back and reflect on your time spent at Fuller, how do you think we can move toward more freedom, aliveness, and fulfillment in life? [00:03:34]
Dr. Scott Symington: I love those words, freedom and aliveness. We have a plaque that's framed in our home by St. Irenaeus of Lyons. Maybe you're familiar with it. It's "the glory of God is the human person fully alive." I love that quote. It moves me.
It's interesting, right, because we were designed to fully express who God envisioned us to be. We're wired a particular way. And I believe that we're called to move towards, and as best as we can, fully express who He designed us to be. But there's all these barriers. One big barrier and a subspecialty of ours is worry and anxiety.
What happens is, in life, we want to settle a lot of things. Like we want to feel safe, secure, have certainty, have everything in its proper place before we move forward in life in a purposeful, meaningful way. [00:04:39]
So, let's say, when it comes to worry and anxiety, and we're in a space of, what if I fail, or I disappoint someone, or there's so much uncertainty in the world right now, we tend to go away in our minds and brood and ruminate, seeking a kind of control and security that sometimes can't be had.
When, in my mind, where the true freedom and aliveness really kicks in is when we learn the very difficult art of moving forward, even when we feel afraid. Keeping our eyes on God and our values and the best parts of who we are, even when there's all these distractions out there and things that feel unsettled.
Dr. Melissa Symington: We are so easily distracted by so many different things and oftentimes we don't know what to pay attention to. We have kind of jumbled ideas. Sometimes things come into our head that we weren't expecting or, you know, worry us. And we feel this pull to attend to whatever is happening around us, whether it's in our head or in our environment. And sometimes we feel like we're all over the place. [00:05:57]
Real freedom is about knowing how to focus our attention on what is life-giving, what gives us the most value, our faith, and then allowing those things to pull us forward or to anchor us.
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah, this idea which we see throughout the Old Testament, of God reminding his people to choose life. Right? There's that very prominent theme.
I believe one of the ways that we choose life is where we put the spotlight of attention. Like our attention, our mind is always somewhere. And we've been endowed with this freedom, this gift. And it's a powerful gift of placing attention on the object of our choosing.
And that spotlight of attention, like if we go away in our mind and we put it on a concern, a worry, we give energy to that worry and it becomes stronger and more pronounced in our internal world. [00:06:57] But alternatively, we can rotate that spotlight of attention to the things above and seeking God's presence and who He's called us to be the present moment, our values.
So this idea of being aware of where we're placing our attention and cultivating the things that are more life-giving that lead to aliveness and freedom.
Laura Dugger: This often happens during interviews where the guest will just bring scripture to life in my mind. And the Lord is in his kindness this morning had me in Hebrews 12. And I feel like you two are just communicating this message.
I'm just going to read a portion of two of these verses from Hebrews 12, 1, and 2 in the Amplified version. It says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who by faith have testified to the truth of God's absolute faithfulness], stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us, looking away from all that will distract us and focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the author and perfecter of faith, the first incentive for our belief and the one who brings our faith to maturity. [00:08:26]
Dr. Scott Symington: That is absolutely spot on. Our internal worlds are a pretty busy place. And sometimes it's hard to separate out the more destructive thoughts and feelings from the more life-giving ones. Right? I think conceptually, most people are on the same page. It's a question of application, though.
It's like so when someone is in a distracted state or feels anxious, they're worried or there's an unhealthy temptation, for a lot of people, they're still somewhat lost in terms of what do I do on the inside in those moments to make that potentially destructive stimuli less powerful? And how do I stay tethered to that which offers life that I'm called to?
It's been a fascinating journey. But eventually what I developed is something called the two-screen method, which helps you quickly organize your internal world and separate out those destructive thoughts and feelings off on a side screen, and then giving you anchors or tethers to stay more connected to the front screen, which is the present moment and God's presence and the best version of self and these different internal experiences that translate into a sense of well-being. [00:09:48]
Laura Dugger: Yes. Scott, could you elaborate on that and maybe give us an example of what that may look like for the two-screen method?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yes. So it's based on an image that depicts your internal world. You imagine your internal world as a movie theater with two screens. Imagine walking into a dimly lit movie theater and kind of go up the stairs and settle into a seat. Right? And so straight ahead, you're looking at the front screen.
The front screen is where you experience the present moment and the more life-giving thoughts, feelings, images, the best version of yourself. That's where the cross is. So all of that internal stuff of life that translates into a sense of well-being. It doesn't mean life is perfect, but you're generally in a good space.
But the challenge is, in our movie theater, there is a second screen off to the right, a side screen. [00:10:48] The side screen is where the threats, fears, worries, insecurities, dark moods, and unhealthy temptations show up.
A classic way that that side screen can show up in our life is you're leaving a really awkward social interaction and you're trying to live the good life, stay attuned to the front screen. And as you're leaving that interaction, the side screen lights up and your internalized reflexively swivel over to take a look, and scrolling across that side screen is, uh, such a stupid thing to say.
And then we go away in our minds, typically in these situations, and we start unpacking the social tapes on the side screen. OK, what I said, what they said, it's kicking off some insecure, anxious heat. Right?
And as we stay parked in front of the side screen, those thoughts and feelings in that side screen, it gets larger and more pronounced. And before you know it, it's an IMAX theater with Dolby surround sound and it's very difficult to rotate back to the front screen. [00:11:54]
So the two-screen method shows you how to relate to the side screen in a way where it will fade into the background and have less power and presence in your life while giving you anchors on the front screen to stay more tethered to that which offers life.
I mean, I'm giving you a very brief synopsis here because, you know, the book that I wrote features this method and has a chapter on each aspect of the method. But that's a little overview.
Laura Dugger: That is incredibly helpful. And yes, the book can unpack all of that methodology much further. But let's zero in on marriages now. How do you think that we can identify our own unhealthy relationship patterns and then begin to pursue healthier options?
Dr. Scott Symington: The first step is raising self-awareness and taking inventory of what your painful emotional triggers are. [00:12:54] We come into marriage with a history. And in that history we all carry pain and woundedness and longings. And all of that stuff gets kicked up when we're in an intimate relationship.
So instead of attributing it all to the other person, to the spouse, it's important to understand where it's getting supercharged from one's history.
Dr. Melissa Symington: I really resonate with restoration therapy, that model, their pain cycle, peace cycle. The idea that all of us enter into a relationship with history of something that's painful and then we also cope. So we either blame someone else for our pain. We shame ourselves for pain. Like, it's my fault because there's something really wrong with me. We try to control other people or the situation or our pain by various ways, perfectionism, etc. Or we escape. [00:13:56]
So there's lots of coping that we do alongside of painful triggers. And so identifying our feelings and then what do we do when we have feelings that we don't like, feeling unloved or feeling disrespected, feeling unseen? Do we have a coping strategy that we automatically go to? Do we start to blame the other person or self-shame or control or escape?
Usually figuring out that kind of pattern — again, there's a lot to this theory, I'm just kind of giving you the bare bones — when we're in a relationship, a marriage, or even relationships with others, parents, children, whatever it is that we do to cope usually triggers pain in the other person and then they cope. And so the pain cycle is a series of pain, coping, pain, and coping.
So being able to identify feelings. Being able to say, what do I feel? What do I do when I feel painful feelings? [00:14:57] How do I cope with them? What are the unhealthy ways that I cope with painful feelings? What else could I do instead of doing this thing like yelling and screaming, let's say, because I felt unloved? I don't want to do that.
So this is where you move from the pain cycle to the peace cycle. The truth is I know you love me or the truth is I know that I'm loved. The truth is I know I can control myself. I can control how I treat you. And then I follow that truth with an action. So I'm going to listen or I'm going to go on a walk or I'm going to do something else.
Laura Dugger: So, Melissa, it sounds like moving into that healthier place would require making the covert overt, so doing some self-work and then communicating that. And is there a next step then that a listener could apply?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes. Identifying the pain cycle is the first step, but then also identifying a peace cycle. [00:15:58] So identifying what do I know that is true? So even my feelings come and go. I mean, they're valid. Feelings are valid, but they're not the truth. The truth is something that's separate.
So a truth statement might be God loves me or I am lovable or I can control myself or something like that. And then following up with an action step. So here's the truth and here are actions that follow from the truth. I can be patient. I can be kind. I can be loving.
Dr. Scott Symington: One thing I would add is that, with this model, you're fire-drilling this in advance with a couple. Each spouse is aware of the other's pain cycle and what they're trying to do in the peace cycle. So it's almost like they're alerted, Okay, here we go. This is the protocol. Right?
So, you know, when somebody is verbalizing their pain cycle and their intention of doing something new, then the other spouse is prepared to offer the new healing response. [00:17:00] Ideally, this takes practice and it's messy. But, you know, you're moving towards life and more of a peace cycle and peace more of the time. Right?
No relationship is free of any conflict or hurt. Even when it's healthy, there's going to be some of that. But it's more and more peace and less and less being captured by each other's pain cycles.
Dr. Melissa Symington: There will always be bumps. There will always be conflict. We're human people. But being able to recognize, "Oh, we're in our pain cycle. Oh, I see what's happening here." So it's that ability to quickly identify "I see what's happening inside of myself or in me. I see what's happening relationally between us."
One suggestion is to write it on three-by-five cards and kind of put it all over the house so you have reminders. So it does take a lot of practice. It's not about perfection. It's about practicing this idea of moving toward repair.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. [00:18:00]
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Laura Dugger: What are some ideals you two are pursuing?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Marriage is about growth, always. And so for us, our relationship has always been a work in progress. When we first got married in graduate school, you know, the first couple of years of our marriage were rocky.
We were in graduate school. We both were in pretty intense individual therapy. We were trying to learn how to be married and live with one another. [00:20:01] But we were going after the hard stuff.
Dr. Scott Symington: We flushed it all out right in the beginning.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Right in the beginning. We really, really kind of went after the things that we needed to go after. So for us, it was about learning how to find our stride, that we needed to learn how to live and be in relationship, learn how to repair.
Again, this is something we have to learn over and over again in our marriage. And as soon as we kind of hit our stride in our first couple of years of marriage, we were ready to have kids. And then we had to find a new stride because we were now new parents.
So just our ideals have always been, we're in a new season, there's something new to learn here, remain humble, seek growth, seek repair, and kind of move forward from that, which has been a good pattern, especially now that we've found ourselves in a global pandemic and during this time where everything has changed. And so we have to figure out a new way forward. [00:21:01]
Dr. Scott Symington: Oh, and just on a parenting note, even though we're both clinical psychologists, we struggle just like every other parent in trying to figure out what is best for each of their kids and how to create the right environment at home. And I don't think you ever quite get there.
A sign of this is actually we're currently running the August Symington Boot Camp at home. Trying to get our kids ready for the school in fall. Because there's a lot of bad habits that have been developed over the last several months. Way too much screen time. Inactivity.
Every day right now, thinking about body, mind, and soul, everybody has to do a couple of meaningful, purposeful activities that fall under each of those categories, for their body, for their mind, and for the soul. And we get sort of a report from each of our kids at the end.
By the way, we don't normally run our household this way. We're sort of doing this as a very specific intervention to get things in order. [00:22:03]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Well, it's an illustration of what I was talking about. We've been in a season of quarantine, a season of global pandemic, a season of, you know, we don't know what's going to happen. And this is lots of us, right? All of us. And we've had to refocus. We've had to say, That doesn't work. What do we do now?
Dr. Scott Symington: I do want to say one thing about our relationship and kind of early on. Melissa and I left no stone unturned early on because of how we're wired individually in the field that we're in. And what you would normally end up addressing over 15 or 20 years, we basically condensed that into about a year and a half.
And I remember the moment when we were in kind of a tense conversation, which felt pretty familiar. I would relate it to a pain cycle. And we looked at each other and smiled. And it was the turning point. It was like, hey there, we're not as activated by this anymore, and transcending some of those pain cycles. [00:23:14] And then that really just set the stage for just a very close, loving relationship that we have held ever since.
Dr. Melissa Symington: And not that we haven't had fights or not that we haven't had-
Dr. Scott Symington: It's been perfect.
Dr. Melissa Symington: It's that we recognize we can repair. We can repair. Over and over again, we come to this place of something is painful or we have to have a hard conversation or we need to look at something. And we know from experience, we can repair. We can move forward.
Laura Dugger: It makes me think our friends David and Lisa Frisbie are authors and they wrote something that they encourage couples of any age: But a little drama now saves trauma later. And I think you two modeled that by really leaning in. It may have felt a little bit more dramatic in the beginning as you worked through these issues but it saved you from so much trauma later on in marriage. [00:24:15]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes.
Dr. Scott Symington: Well said.
Laura Dugger: And listeners may find it interesting that you two work with another couple who specializes in Christian sex therapy. Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner. And they've actually been repeat guests on The Savvy Sauce. So I'll certainly link to those episodes in today's show notes. But I would love to know, what are some of the main takeaways that you two have learned over time from your partnership with the Penners?
Dr. Scott Symington: The Penners are amazing.
Dr. Melissa Symington: They're wonderful, wonderful people.
Dr. Scott Symington: We love them so much. And there are many takeaways. A couple right off the top of my head. One is, they're such a beautiful example that if you are open, like if you preserve a childlike openness to life and where God takes you, life becomes this just incredible adventure and journey. [00:25:14]
I mean, their story is remarkable. And part of it is because they have been so available for the journey, for the unexpected stuff of life. And it really it's amazing. So to be connected to them and witness the unfolding, the continuous unfolding of their life and experiences, it really is amazing and inspiring and faith-giving.
The other piece that stands out is just how powerful sex therapy is and that good marital therapy in many ways needs to include this physical intimacy piece, like have a sex therapy component to it. If you really want to get in there and address the deepest stuff, it's a very, very important component.
So even when couples come to see us that don't have a sexual issue per se that they want to address, it's always in the mix now. And I feel like we just do much better clinical work because of this training and because of the Penner's influence and model. [00:26:25]
Dr. Melissa Symington: And I would add what I've learned from them and working with them is just the importance about teaching about healthy sexuality, whether that's working with clients, working with couples or even individuals.
But also I'm an adjunct professor at Fuller and I get to teach the human sexuality course to the MFT students. So these are students who are training to become therapists. And what I always say at the very beginning of the class, Hey, you might not want to go into sex therapy. This might feel very uncomfortable for you as a therapist. You might think, this is not what I'm signing up for in terms of talking about these types of issues with people I'm going to work with.
But if I allow myself as a therapist to grow in this area, to open myself up as a clinician, that this is such an important gift I can give clients that if I'm open and I'm willing, if I know this area and I have some knowledge here about healthy sexuality, that my clients want to talk about this. [00:27:37] They don't have a place to go with any of this information. There's no one to talk to about this kind of stuff. And therapy is the perfect place to talk to.
But if you're a therapist who's kind of closed down about sexual issues, they won't have that opportunity. And so, you know, it's about comfortability. So we're going to talk about all these issues. And the more comfortable we can become talking about this in this class and understanding these issues, the more comfortable you're going to be in your person. And when you're sitting there with clients, they'll be able to tell.
So case in point, when we started working with the Penners, we both finished our PhDs. We had worked with clients before, but it wasn't until we got that extra training in sex therapy where we felt more comfortable talking about sexual issues.
Because even as PhDs who are married and had children, you know, you think we talk about uncomfortable issues all the time where, you know, we're therapists. Surely we could talk about sexual issues. But until you actually kind of go there and open yourself up to it, we discovered that it was hard for us to even talk about it. [00:28:43]
So for my students, I encourage them like this is an area where if we just open ourselves up to healthy sexuality, talking about what healthy sexuality looks like, we will be giving our clients a gift. They'll be able to tell, I can talk to my therapist about these issues. So that's kind of what we've learned from the Penners. Lots of things.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. What can you teach us about the neuroscience and the role it plays in intimacy?
Dr. Scott Symington: Dan Siegel at UCLA in interpersonal neurobiology is doing some really interesting work. It's interdisciplinary and they call it interpersonal neurobiology. And it's all about how we are wired for relationships and intimacy and how relationships change our brain.
We can do brain imaging and see how intimate relationships and friendships can actually have an impact neurobiologically. So it gives a whole new meaning to that saying, you know, choose your friends wisely. [00:29:52] I mean, obviously, choose your spouse wisely as well, because we change each other's brains.
You know, one interesting facet of that is the discovery of mirror neurons, how are our brains react to the things that we see in the other. So if I were to see you pick up an object, there is a part of my brain related to that action that would light up just me visually seeing you do it. So we are so linked even sort of neurobiologically. There's this back and forth.
Dr. Melissa Symington: We're talking about physical intimacy. I mean, I don't like to separate out physical intimacy from emotional intimacy or spiritual intimacy. I think all those things go together. They hang together.
True intimacy is when all those things are kind of lined up. But when we're talking about all those things, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, and physical intimacy can have these positive kind of neurochemical effects on us and each other in terms of oxytocin, feeling bonded, feeling close. [00:30:59] That's the cuddle hormone.
But what's interesting is people like to separate out the physical part or the sexual part. And it's interesting because when we first get to know someone, when we're first dating someone, there's that intense attraction that we feel.
And when we feel that intense attraction, we have all kinds of really awesome brain cocktail happening. Right? We have dopamine, which is all the feel-good chemicals. We have adrenaline because it's new. So dopamine and adrenaline together just kind of boost up this kind of excitement that we have when we're first dating someone.
What's interesting is that people love this part of dating, this part of engagement, this part of this new part of the relationship because it feels so good. And it's also linked to that kind of fantasy part. We don't really know that person that we're just starting to date or even as we are getting engaged. [00:32:03] We don't know what it's like to live with them. We don't know what it's like. So we're kind of running on this kind of cocktail.
Our brain cannot sustain that level of dopamine and adrenaline. It usually decreases around 6 to 24 months after any brand-new relationship. So we think about that in terms of people dating, getting engaged and getting married.
Once we've crossed over into marriage, we're past this point where the brain can even kind of sustain this high level of adrenaline and dopamine. And so people come into our offices all the time and say, "You know, I want to feel the way I felt when we first were together. Or I want to feel how I felt when we were dating. It was so exciting. I couldn't wait to be with that person. I couldn't wait to touch them or I couldn't wait to do this or that. You know, everything they said was fun and funny and exciting, and now I'm annoyed by this person."
The change we believe is it's a movement from intense attraction to attachment. And attachment is all about covenant. Attachment is about I choose you. Attachment is I'm in this with you. Good, bad, and the ugly. Okay, that's not fantasy, that's reality. [00:33:24]
So even though the dopamine and the adrenaline kind of start to decrease, we have to make this movement into oxytocin, where we choose intention, and loving each other is a value versus a feeling. So moving into that is where I believe true intimacy begins.
Intimacy doesn't happen in the beginning stages when we're on a high and we feel so wonderful with our soon-to-be spouse. True intimacy is the gritty, is the raw, is the hard. And it is in that space where we learn and grow. And it doesn't mean it can't be wonderful or pleasurable, but it requires intention.
Laura Dugger: And then as couples are together longer, you're right, it's been proven over time that dopamine and adrenaline will decrease and it will feel very different. But then it's fascinating to hear from couples who have been married such a long time. I would say even more wonderful feelings and experiences come from that intimacy. [00:34:31]
And looking at the brain, would that be more with the oxytocin and serotonin over time that is more sustainable? And you can't overdose on those like you can on dopamine and adrenaline.
Dr. Scott Symington: The answer is yes. And I would add one other piece. Yeah, there's the oxytocin, the serotonin.
There also is the history of that dopamine-laden relationship, which can get activated. It just doesn't sustain itself at that same level of intensity. So they've done brain imaging experiments like Helen Singer and others where even with couples, long term couples that express being in love, you know, when they're showed images of the other person, whatever, that there is more dopamine activation than for a stranger, let's say. So it's not like it's totally absent. It's just not at the same level.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah. And people want that. It's got a shelf life. [00:35:32] It's still there but now we have to put in the intention. We have to put in the work. There is a richness that goes with sticking it out and together being bonded in good times and in bad times.
You know, oxytocin is released when we hug, when we kiss. It's released when women are breastfeeding. It's released when men are holding their babies and bottle feeding and looking into their infant's eyes. So this is all about we're bonded. We're a family. We're together. We're in this.
And so allowing that to take the lead, I have covenanted with you and I am in this with you. So it takes intention.
Laura Dugger: And so two quick follow-ups on that. Is oxytocin also in the marital relationship? Is our brain kind of bathed in that through eye contact as well, like if we're connecting through eye contact or conversation with eye contact? [00:36:33]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes. I use the example of putting a hand on the shoulder and looking into someone's eyes. This happens with friends. This is like fellowship. But even as spouses, we need this level of bonding. We need this non-sexual way of bonding. So what's fascinating is oxytocin shows up, is released when we look into each other's eyes, when we hug. So when we move more into kind of passionate, like kissing, when we hold hands, it's released at orgasm.
So it is released throughout our ways of physically showing affection and love and care, which again is always connected to our emotional and spiritual parts too. It creates a baseline of we're attached. We're in this together. And it's very calming. What it does is it soothes any kind of anxiety. It helps to regulate our bodies.
So, neurochemically, oxytocin is a great co-regulator. So when we have stress, we have high levels of cortisol, oxytocin is one very helpful way of calming our bodies. [00:37:40]
You know, touch is the first language of love. We learn that when we're infants. You know, when we cry, we get picked up, we get cuddled. We're held close when we're fed. Again, whether that's through the breast or a bottle. You know, someone's holding us gently and looking into our eyes.
That first year of life there's a lot of touch that's happening. There's a lot of care that's communicated through touch. And we have to recognize that that's very important in our marital life as well. To remember that language of love through touch, through eye contact, through holding each other, through looking into each other's eyes, and then all the way up through the sexual relationship.
Laura Dugger: And this may not be the main area of focus for a married couple but you alluded to the fact that we can recall those dopamine feelings. So could you give any really practical examples of how that occurs?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. [00:38:39] So you've had the Penners on your show a couple of times. I imagine they've talked about the Penners formula for intimacy that they recommend for couples. Holding each other, kissing for five to 30 seconds every day.
There are certain intimacy rituals that a couple can practice that activate or keep that historical network going. But again, it's not going to be at the same level as the honeymoon period. But it does keep it kind of more available and part of the relationship. So it's investing in different intimacy rituals that help bring that network online and keep it there.
Dr. Melissa Symington: I think for us personally, when we talk about the early days... So for Scott and I, when we talk about, remember when we were first dating and remember when, you know, we always laugh because we're like, we were so stupid back then. There's so much we didn't know. We've grown so much. I can't imagine us being the same way we were in the past. [00:39:43]
But that still does kick up those feelings, that dopamine and the adrenaline because it's a part of our story in a fun and funny way. And then we can also laugh at it and say, but that wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. Or that's a part of our story, but look at the rest of our story. Look at how much we've been through. Look how much we've grown.
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Please consider joining Patreon today by going to thesavvysauce.com, then clicking our Patreon tab and following the instructions when you click the link "Join Patreon" Here. We hope it takes you less than five minutes and we can't describe how much this means to us. [00:40:48] So thank you in advance. We appreciate you.
And as it relates to the sexual part of marriage, what is something that you two wish every couple listening could learn to freely enjoy with their spouse?
Dr. Melissa Symington: I think mainly I always like to say that intimacy is not sex and sex is not intimacy. Sex is an important part of intimacy, but it's not the whole thing. It's not the whole picture.
So keeping in mind that the emotional and spiritual parts of intimacy and physical intimacy are really important. Physical intimacy doesn't mean sex. Physical intimacy means all the ways we use touch to show care and love and support and closeness.
What I want people to know is that everybody struggles with sexual issues. We know from research that 45% to 50% of all individuals and couples report, at some point in their life, some kind of sexual problem or dysfunction. And we know that's what's just reported. [00:41:48] So if it's that high, it's 45% to 50% of what's reported. You know that it's much higher than that.
So sexual issues are very prominent in our culture, in the church, too, because we have so many cultural myths and problems communicating about sex. We have unrealistic expectations and historical hurt and misinformation. And that kind of keeps us in this very stagnant pool because we think everybody else has a great sex life except for us or nobody else seems to be having a problem. But I have a problem.
I guess I want listeners to know that everybody, everyone is kind of swimming in the same waters unless they are going after healthy sexuality intentionally.
The six building blocks — these are kind of like a DNA structure, they all kind of hang together, they're not totally separate — include integration. That means that healthy sexuality is about being a whole person. [00:42:48] We don't separate it out from our spiritual side or other aspects of ourself.
I use the Great Commandment to illustrate that, that we're supposed to give God all of who we are. We're not supposed to split ourselves up. And likewise, we give all of who we are to our spouse.
So integration is important, making sure that sex is a part of who we are as a person and we acknowledge it, that our body is good, that it goes together with our spiritual aspects of self.
We have to have correct information. So integration, information. That means we need to root out anything that is not true, any myths that we've picked up along the way. Where did we get our information from? We have to ask ourselves good questions.
Number three is communication. We need to be able to talk about sex with our spouse. We have to talk about sex with our kids. We have to talk about sex in our church. We have to be able to be more open about talking about that sex is a gift and is good from God, and how do we steward that. [00:43:52]
Fourthly, mutuality, that sex is not something that... it's not a commodity or a battle of needs. It's not power used over someone, but it's a balanced way of caring for the other. Sex is about connection. It's deeply relational.
And then lastly, a healthy sex life or healthy sexuality always includes relaxation, meaning it needs to be free from anxiety. It needs to be safe. So those building blocks, again, are integration, information, communication, mutuality, connection, and relaxation.
So I know I just said a whole lot, but I just feel like that is so important for people to know that healthy sexuality takes intention. It takes time. It takes work.
Laura Dugger: That was incredibly helpful. Another really common area of frustration in marriage can be desire discrepancy. [00:44:52] So could you speak to both the high-desire spouse and the low-desire spouse?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. So, in the honeymoon phase of the relationship, usually there's a lot of sexual desire, mutual sexual desire, and strong attraction. But then once you move out of the honeymoon period, the discrepancy in sexual desire between spouses is revealed, right? Because it's never 50-50 exactly.
I mean, usually it's more like 70-30 or 80-20. But that imbalance in sexual desire was covered up early on in the relationship. And so once the relationship matures, the discrepancy is revealed, and that's where problems begin in the physical intimacy department.
Because pressure and demand is often introduced there, even if it's not intentional, right? So the lower-desire spouse maybe feels guilty or is confused why they're not as interested. [00:45:58] And then they're kind of moving into that category of what we would call duty sex, which is less than ideal, or they're feeling pressure and demand. Then the party with higher sexual desire may feel undesired and also be confused that the spouse is not as interested in them. So there's this whole dynamic that begins there.
And so when you perceive that your partner is interested in sex, there's really three primary responses that you could have. His or her desire could activate your desire. So desire meets desire and the two go to the bedroom and there's no issue, right? That's when it works seamlessly.
You perceiving that your partner is interested could activate a sense of duty where you're feeling pressure and demand and it's really not a great fulfilling experience for you. You're doing it more out of obligation. It's more like a job.
But God has given us a third option. [00:47:05] This is where we're helping couples in sex therapy a lot. And that is the decision category. So if you perceive that your spouse is interested, ideally there is freedom in the relationship to not go in that direction where either you're not consumed by guilt or feeling.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Not ashamed.
Dr. Scott Symington: You're not ashamed or feeling pressured by the other. So you have freedom to make a different choice or to put up a boundary. So even though in the moment you may not be interested, this is the decision category, you say to yourself, "Huh, I'm not really feeling it right now, but I'm open to moving in that direction."
And that's not signing a contract for intercourse. That's just moving in that direction, knowing that you have the freedom as you start engaging in pillow talking or it's just some casual caressing to just let it be that. Or it might go further and turn it into hot sex. [00:48:08] I mean, and there's a kind of an openness for both parties around trusting the unfolding and making sure there isn't pressure and demand.
A lot of healthy sex is happening in this decision category where on the front end, one spouse and sometimes both spouses aren't experiencing a lot of sexual desire. But when they feel freed up and then they start connecting and relaxing, the engine gets up and running and then they're surprised by the sexual desire and arousal that kicks in.
Laura Dugger: That is so well said. If you two could only share one more thing about intimacy or deepening enjoyment in marriage, what would you like to say?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Sexual intimacy or sexual relating, there should only be three goals. The goal should be pleasure and touch, emotional connection, and relaxation. [00:49:08] And it should never be orgasm because as soon as there's some pressure or goal to have an orgasm, then everything kind of goes out the window in terms of there's going to be performance anxiety and other issues.
So that would be the sexual part, I think, or relationally, I think just intentionality, continuing to move towards one another with curiosity and openness to growth.
Dr. Scott Symington: I'm just echoing that. Like all important things in life, your relationship, physical intimacy, it takes time and investment. It's not something that just happens on its own that may occur in the honeymoon stage. But once you're out of that, it's something that you need to be cultivating and working on, and then it bears fruit.
Laura Dugger: Well, Scott and Melissa, there is so much more to talk about. We could talk about this all day. But if listeners want to learn more from you, where would you direct them? [00:50:12]
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah, going to our website, drsymington.com. There are a lot of resources there.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Resources in terms of sexual intimacy, but also just marital intimacy, Scott and I are a part of the Relate Strong team, which comes out of the Boone Center at Pepperdine. And it's a group of mental health professionals, researchers who help write and speak to pastors.
So they have resources when they're sharing in their pulpits. But if you go to the Boone Center, Pepperdine, the Boone Center, there's an eBook that you can download. We have a section in there that talks about sexual intimacy, but there are sections on just the pain and peace cycle that we were talking about earlier.
Also, a great resource would be Scott's book, which is Freedom from Anxious Thoughts and Feelings. And that book is a very helpful tool. [00:51:15] It talks about the two screens, but it's a book about mindfulness, but it's very easy to understand, helpful.
Dr. Scott Symington: Just a user-friendly application of those principles. Because when it comes to physical intimacy in marriages, we have side screens, right? And there's a lot of, even if you want to go right at the physical intimacy, noise in the bedroom. So things that are potential distractors from the present moment and connecting with the other.
So, yeah, it gets into the two-screen method and how to separate out and make less powerful those distractions and problematic thoughts and feelings that we're always contending with.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will certainly link to all of that in both our show notes and on our Resources tab of our website. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for the two of you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:52:17]
Dr. Scott Symington: So one thing that we do with all the couples that we see that's made a huge difference is what we refer to as the loving action list. That is having each spouse spend some time listing at least 30 ways that they feel loved, valued, respected, and cared for in the relationship. And those could be things that are happening or have happened in the relationship or they wish that would occur.
The key thing, though, about making this list be effective is translating, let's say, an idea of when he adores me into concrete behavioral action. So a fly on the wall could spot a loving action taking place. So instead of it being an abstract concept, it's a very specific behavior. When he tells me I'm beautiful, you know, when she sends me a text in the middle of the day, when he initiates a date night. So- [00:53:25]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Concrete.
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. Because that's the key thing. Because then what happens is once you get that master list, then spouses can swap lists and then you have in your possession a bullseye list and how your partner is loved.
We encourage couples to just look at that list periodically throughout the week and act on one of those. Some of them don't take a lot of time. Some of them maybe are a little bit higher level. But just each spouse, you know, having in their possession really a way of loving the other. It has a profound effect on couples.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah. These are small ways to show love, but they're so effective because it's the small things that add up. It's like putting money in a bank. So then you have a reserve to draw on when you do hit those bumps.
So you have ways to look at something and identify how loved you are or how to care for your spouse. And I love it because it's a menu of options. [00:54:28] Scott and I have a list. I look at my list all the time. So even though we're psychologists and we teach these things and we talk to couples about it, we also use this as a tool. It's very helpful.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. You two are just incredible teachers. It's been fascinating to hear from such a talented couple who are both in love with each other and the work they get to do. So thank you for sharing your expertise with us today. And thank you for being my guests.
Dr. Scott Symington: Laura, great being with you.
Laura Dugger: Yes, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:55:28]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:30]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:36] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 26, 2020
Monday Oct 26, 2020
118. Parenting All Temperaments with Jenny Boyett
**Transcription Below**
1 Thessalonians 5:11 (NIV) "Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.”
Jenny Boyett is the mom to four daughters (three of them triplets!) She has served at North Point Ministries, a network of churches in the Atlanta area, for over 17 years helping connect adults into small groups. She currently serves in North Point’s publishing ministry supporting authors and inspiring leaders with faith-based content. When she’s not shuttling her three teenage triplets around, Jenny’s dreaming about her next Joanna Gaines-inspired home project. She’s a graduate of Georgia Southern University, a huge proponent of counseling, and a raving fan of The Bachelorette.
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Other Savvy Sauce Podcast Episodes Mentioned
72 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 1 with Kathleen Edelman
73 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 2 with Kathleen Edelman
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Our sponsor for this episode is Plan to Eat. Make sure you check out their app today or visit their website. Savvy Sauce listeners get a 60-day free trial that requires no payment information when they visit plantoeat.com/savvy.
Jenny Boyett is my upbeat and helpful guest for today. Her ministry and parenting experience allows her to speak wisdom into all our interactions with our own children who are either similar or different from us.
Temperaments are with us for life, so this episode will be helpful to any parents, ranging from first-time parents of newborns to empty nesters with adult children. I hope you discover beneficial ideas to apply to your own family after concluding this conversation.
Here's our chat. [00:01:19]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jenny.
Jenny Boyett: Thank you so much. It's an honor to be with you.
Laura Dugger: We would love first just to have a glimpse of who you are and what you do.
Jenny Boyett: Well, I am a mom to four daughters, three of them being triplets. They're 16 years old and then one 10-year-old. I live in Alpharetta, Georgia, and I have been working at North Point Community Church and within North Point Ministries for the last 18 years. I never thought I'd work at a church, and now I work there for 18 years. So it's a lot of fun and I enjoy just getting to be at the local church level and also help other churches around the country.
Laura Dugger: You've also become interested in working with temperaments. So how did you originally get into all of that?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, goodness, yes. Well, when my triplets were about eight years old and my youngest was two, life got pretty crazy. I needed help. [00:02:19] And I had heard about this temperament coach, Kathleen Edelman, out there, and I just knew that I needed to meet her.
So I started emailing her and it was hard to get an appointment, but I was hoping that she would be able to fix my girls. I finally got an appointment and then I quickly realized that I was the one that probably needed fixing. Because she met with me and she met with the girls and she met then with each of them individually, and she said, "They are delightful, but I think you and I should spend some time together."
And that kind of started my journey over the last eight years of learning about the temperaments, kind of being Kathleen's understudy, if you will, and just learning them as a parent, but also as an employee, an employer, that kind of thing. It's just been so life-changing.
I see how powerful understanding your own wiring and that of your kids or your co-workers can be. And so it's just something I'm super passionate about. [00:03:18]
Laura Dugger: Well, we have had the pleasure of meeting with Kathleen as well. Back in episodes 72 and 73, we covered these temperaments in depth. I'll put these easy links in the show notes for anyone who's interested in listening to those.
But today we are going to go a different direction to understand the temperaments specifically as they relate to parenting. So just to get started, will you give us a quick overview of the four temperaments?
Jenny Boyett: Absolutely. I've been doing this for the last several years, but I would love for the people to listen that didn't listen to Kathleen's podcast because she for sure is the expert in this, but I can tell you my practical experience along the way.
But the overview of the temperaments are there are four temperaments. They have the Greek names, but we refer to them as colors just because it's a little bit easier. So we have the sanguine, which is yellow, we have the choleric that's red, the melancholy that's blue and the phlegmatic that's green. [00:04:19]
And if you think of them on a chart and you think the top chart is yellow and red and the bottom chart is green and blue, the yellow and red, the top two, they are extroverts. And what that means is their thoughts and emotions go outward. So those are the people that may talk before they think and say, "Oops, I didn't mean to say that."
The bottom quadrant, green and blue, they're more introverted. What I love about this is that it just means that their thoughts and emotions go inward. It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't want to be around people. It just means that they are more internal processors. And that's real important when you think of the green for this next part that I'm going to share with you because I have a green daughter. So this was very insightful to me.
If you then are still looking at that chart and now on the left side of the chart you have the yellow at the top and the green at the bottom, those are very people-focused. So their first thought is, how do people feel? [00:05:20] What are people doing? Just very focused on people.
On the right side, when you have the red and the blue, their first thought is the task. So they're going to choose a task over a person any day of the week. And so what's interesting about that is the greens kind of can get lost because they are introverted people people. I have a daughter that's that way. And so kind of understanding this and understanding what she was processing, because she liked to be around people, but she was just super quiet, it was really helpful in being able to parent her and guide her on her route.
Then it's also important to know that most people or all people have a dominant and a secondary. So you will have usually one that is dominant and then you will have one that is either across or down. You don't usually go diagonal.
So in the quadrant that I was talking about, most people would be a yellow-red or a yellow-green, you would be a red-yellow or a red-blue, you could be a green-yellow or a green-blue, or you would be a blue-red or a blue-green. [00:06:28] Most people are not yellow-blue or blue-yellow or red-green, green-red, just because you would be a kind of opposite of yourself. And it would be really difficult on you if that is you.
Laura Dugger: That's super helpful to get the overview. Will you also share what your temperament is with the primary and secondary and also each of your daughters?
Jenny Boyett: Yes, I will. We have a little bit of everything. I am yellow-red. And then my triplets, I have Addie, Riley, and McKenna. So Addie, the firstborn, is red-blue. And then my second daughter, Riley, she is green-yellow. And then my third daughter, McKenna, is yellow-red. And then my fourth daughter, Skylar, is red-yellow.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. I think that'll help lay the foundation. There are nuances of each temperament. So will you explain how does that secondary color impact the way each temperament manifests itself? [00:07:33]
Jenny Boyett: Usually, somebody's dominant you'll be able to tell unless they're a real 50-50 split. But knowing this and knowing what their secondary makes a big difference. As a parent, I did not realize my firstborn, Addie, was... I knew she was a red, but I had gone back and forth on her secondary being yellow or blue until she got her permit. And I'll explain more about this. But you're like, yeah, yellow and blue is opposite. And it's like, yeah, it is.
So somebody that is a yellow-red versus a yellow-green. A yellow-red is going to have a little bit more decisiveness to them. They're going to be able to naturally go into leading a project if there isn't somebody already leading it. They're going to step up to lead a little bit more so than someone who is a yellow-green.
A yellow-green is going to be really go-with-the-flow, less decisive than a yellow-red. [00:08:33] A yellow-red will be a little bit more like, you know, "Oh, what do you want for lunch?" "Oh, I'm feeling Chinese." Whereas a yellow-green is like, "Oh, I don't care. You decide."
Honestly, I think the yellow-greens are more innately kind because I have a daughter that's that way. She just is very go-with-the-flow, really doesn't have a sense of urgency in her a lot. Whereas a yellow-red is going to be a little bit more driven to accomplish a task. Whereas the yellow-green is really they're just all focused on people and no task.
The next combination, you can either be a red-yellow, or you can be a red-blue. A red-yellow is going to be someone who is decisive, but that is very people-oriented, still likes to have a lot of fun, is constantly, you know, potentially looking for people to engage with them in conversation. Whereas a red-blue is really fine, a little bit more so by themselves. It doesn't mean that they don't like people, but they're just so focused on tasks that they would have to put down, check in with my people. [00:09:42] You know, as a task, to check it off their list. So they're going to be a little bit more focused on accomplishment and the red-yellow will be a little bit more focused on the people side of things.
Then you have the breakdown of a blue-red, or it could be, you could be a blue-green. So a blue-red, they're going to be a little bit more quiet, a little bit more task-focused. They're going to be concerned more on safety and on accomplishing what needs to be accomplished on their to-do list. Whereas a blue-green is going to be pretty organized. However, they will leave room for spontaneity. They will not be as decisive. They will kind of have a little bit more go-with-the-flow in them. And even though the blue is a little bit about being a perfectionist, that green side of them will allow them some flexibility in that perfection.
Then if you're a green, you can either be a green-yellow, or a green-blue. So they're really go-with-the-flow. They're all people-oriented. [00:10:45] They're going to have very little task-focused. And so it's going to be a coworker or a child that you're probably going to have to stay on and keep motivated to accomplish something by a deadline. Whereas somebody that's a green-blue is going to still go with the flow, but they're going to be a little bit more on top of wanting to accomplish the task at hand because of that blue secondary. They have a little bit more focus on the task side of things.
Laura Dugger: Wow. That is awesome to start trying to picture where we are and where our children are at. One follow-up question with that, I'll just use a personal example. So I've tested and have been affirmed by those I love that I am a yellow-green. And yet in parenting, for the first time in my life, it's like I was able to borrow some of the skills of a red. It's much more difficult to borrow the skills of a blue. [00:11:49] But have you found that to be a pattern where whichever other one we touch, we can still lean into?
Jenny Boyett: Yeah. I mean, I think we all have elements of all four temperaments. I've seen those. We usually just have the primary and the secondary or your dominant and secondary. But I definitely feel like you can borrow the strengths or the weaknesses of all the temperaments.
And a lot of that depends on your own upbringing, your environment, you know, different things you've been exposed to. I definitely feel like that's possible. Because I'm a yellow-red and I'm really dominant yellow. So I just have a splash of red. And when I had triplets, you would have thought that I was totally blue because I, for the first two weeks, was so out of whack.
I like to not have a schedule, right? I like to just go with the flow. And then all of a sudden I realized this is going to kill me. Like I cannot have three infants in the house and not have a schedule. [00:12:50] So I borrowed a ton of learned behavior from the blues in my life of, Okay, I've got to get organized. I've got to keep a schedule for each of them. I need to know when each of them is going to the bathroom, so when the doctor says, when's the last time they had a bowel movement? I'm not like I have no idea.
So I absolutely think it's possible to borrow what you need from different temperaments and to learn and to grow. You know, Jesus was the best of all four of the temperaments. And so we don't usually master them like that on this earth. Maybe in heaven we will. But I definitely think there's an ability to grow and evolve. And hopefully, we're borrowing more of the strengths than the weaknesses.
Laura Dugger: I think those stories are so helpful for clarification. So can you think of any stories or examples to illustrate children's different temperaments?
Jenny Boyett: Well, yeah, I was going to share the story when I said I had thought my daughter Addie was going to be red-yellow. [00:13:51] Because she very much was around people and was popular, loved meeting new people and all of that. So really up until she got her permit, I was like, She's red-yellow, because I thought the red can be very organized as well. So that was what she was pulling from.
When I realized that safety was by far the most pressing concern for her when she got her permit, it was clear to me that the yellow piece of her, what I was assuming to be yellow, was some of the common similarities between the yellow and the red and that she was really blue. Because she was like, "You want me to drive this car on the road? That is not safe." And it just struck me.
Then as I started looking at her and hearing more of the things that were on her heart or why she chose to do certain things, it was less about the yellow attention and it was more about the red control. [00:14:52] Or some of the compassion that the yellow and the blue share, hers was coming more from the blue side than the yellow side. So that was really helpful to me.
And it like clicked. When I realized that, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, so much makes sense. Because she's red-blue and not red-yellow, that why her sister, who is her identical twin, who is a green-yellow, they are the total opposites. It helps explain some of their frustration with each other. So I think the secondary does come into play very much so.
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Laura Dugger: What is your wisdom for parenting children of each temperament?
Jenny Boyett: Well, I'm still learning this, right? So we'll just all learn together. But what I would say is being a student of your child first and foremost and really learning what they need. I'm sure Kathleen talked about each of those innate needs and what it is and trying to figure out practical things that you can do to fill those needs every day.
Honestly, when you need to apologize and you mess up, apologize, because I do that all the time. Children give us grace all the time, especially when they see us trying.
So I would say that for my red children, one of the things that was really helpful to me that I learned was to give them as much control over their world as you can. So, if you just have one child in their red, you can allow them to decide what they're going to wear for the day or decide when they want to do their chores. That's been super helpful, giving my red the ability to decide. [00:18:02]
If you have a red and then you have younger children, even having the red be helpful with the younger children. You know, hey, could you help Jimmy get his lunch packed? And where they can feel that they have some authority and that they have some control over their domain is really important.
For my yellow children, and I'm yellow, so that's most natural I can identify with what they're feeling, is really trying to make things fun. So when we're doing homework and it's a struggle, get out all the different color markers and let them write with different color markers and learn the, you know, Presidents of the United States based on different things or turning things into games. Anything, whether it's chores or homework that you can try to make more fun and appealing will definitely help you parent.
Even sometimes when I am frustrated with my yellow and she's not listening, even instead of being harsh, saying something like, "Oh, you silly, you know, it's time to get ready for dinner. Come on," you know, that would be the piece that's most helpful to them because they do not like to have rules or feel that things are not fun. [00:19:20]
The green, I have learned that my greens do not like anything that is considered work. They very much like to be low-key and go with the flow. And so if there's ways that I can point them to doing something without saying work.
For example, my daughter Riley, when I would just say, "Hey, you know, you have a tendency to procrastinate. But remember last time when we studied and we did flashcards and you felt so confident and it didn't stress you out to like cram for your test the night before." Reminding her of what went well to get her to preplan and to not use the word work has been really, really helpful.
As far as for my daughter that has blue in her, I would say to just really almost validate the concern, especially in the time that we're in right now with the pandemic and working from home and school from home and different things like that, validating her concerns and not just minimizing them because me as a yellow mom, I just want to be like, "Oh, it's fine. You can move on. Don't worry about it," I think really makes her feel invalid and in some of her concerns. [00:20:35]
I think validating her concern for cleanliness and safety and health. But also encouraging her that it's going to be okay and we can go and do some things out in public, and we don't just have to stay in the house has been a way to connect with her and validate her and motivate her as well. So those are just some basic tips.
Laura Dugger: Yes, that may be helpful for people now starting to identify what's worked with their own children. Even going back for each of the colors, it would just be a helpful reminder because you touched on a few of these. What are some of the innate needs of each color?
Jenny Boyett: So the yellow is all about attention and approval and acceptance and affection. That's very much people-focused.
Then our color, which are reds, there's innate needs are loyalty, sense of control, appreciation, credit for work. [00:21:37]
And then our blues are melancholies, they need safety, sensitivity, support and space and silence.
And then our phlegmatics are greens. They need harmony, feeling of worth, lack of stress and respect.
Laura Dugger: And so knowing that sometimes children, maybe especially like toddlers, will show up with more of the weaknesses of their color rather than the strengths, I would love to go back through some of those examples you gave. So let's think about a red child and you said they need a sense of control. So what wisdom would you share if you have a red child and you say, "Okay, honey, you get to choose either you get to do your chores now before lunch or you can eat first and then do your chores." What if they give a different option?
Jenny Boyett: I mean, I think it really just depends on if that option is okay with you. [00:22:39] I think the reds are constantly trying to think through what is the most efficient, effective way. And what I've heard Kathleen say for a lot of times is the reds usually have thought it through first.
So what I had to do when I was learning some of this early on is realize even though my 10-year-old is red, sometimes when I suggest a way to do something or I'm trying to give her control to do something, she actually has come up with a better plan. And just because I'm the parent, it doesn't mean I can't allow her and be like, "Oh, that's a good idea. Okay, I'm good with that." And me not feel like, Oh, she just controlled me or I just was pushed over.
I think there are levels where you can absolutely defer to, Okay, yeah, let's go with the third option. But then there's also times that they need to be a good red. They also need to learn to be under authority. And so there's had to be times that I've had to go back and go, "I realize that that makes sense to you. However, I would like it to go this way. So do you want to do option one or option two?" [00:23:43]
And so I think they've then just had to... she's just had to kind of lean in and realize, Okay, I'm given enough space to exercise my authority and control when I'm given. But I'm also under that authority. And so now I have to lean into mom and follow what she wants done first.
Laura Dugger: I love it. I think you gave a both/and which is always wisdom. Because it's both probably sometimes allowing them to choose that way, but then also not allowing for the defiance. And there are certain times, like you said, they need to come under authority.
Jenny Boyett: Yep, exactly.
Laura Dugger: Let me try and think of an example for a yellow, maybe more so like with children that are disobeying in these temperaments. Let's say a yellow, you're having a hard time getting them to sit at the table. How would you handle that?
Jenny Boyett: One of the things that I've loved learning is the phrase, tell me more. [00:24:43] Obviously, depending on the age of the kids, it will determine how much they can articulate, you know, tell me more, what's going on. But really, what Kathleen's taught me is to try to get to the heart of the behavior of like not just the behavior, but why they're doing the behavior.
This was a perfect example. This was a few years ago. My yellow daughter was just that. Now she was still like 13 years old, but was so distracted, would not sit at the table, was doing a bunch of stuff. And I'm like, "Hey, McKenna, I need you just to sit down and engage with us." You know, we like to go around the table and "What's your high for the day and low for the day?" And she just was distracted and not paying attention.
What I found out was that she was in a fight with her friends and they were going back and forth via text. So she was super distracted and wanted to be able to kind of finish that conversation.
So when you understand a little bit more of what's going on behind it, it helps you know kind of how to discipline or how to parent. [00:25:46] And so what I said is, you know, being a fellow yellow, if you will, I knew that that was going to weigh heavy on her mind and that she wasn't going to be able to engage in our conversation until she had at least put a period on that conversation. So giving her five minutes to go and have that to then engage with us at the table was really what she needed.
However, when they're little or like that, again, it very well may be a conversation of, Okay, what are you wanting to do and why are you wanting to do it? And, you know, how can we meet in the middle to sit down right now? And what need is filled?
Maybe it's really motivating them by, Hey, we do highs and lows. You get to go first tonight. Like, can you sit down and then let's pay attention to everybody else? So I think really trying to find the why, what's causing the distraction or the hyperactivity would be really important to then kind of know how to guide them. [00:26:39]
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's good. Let's move to our greens. You mentioned a lot of people are doing virtual learning right now. And so let's just speak to the parents who are really trying to motivate their green to finish their schoolwork and they're having challenges. How would you recommend they handle that situation?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, yes, that's us right now. My green daughter. So this was something we did yesterday. We literally just started school on Monday and there were a lot of tears. They're juniors in high school so the social aspect is missing. Even the setup of our house isn't super ideal because the way that they have to use their school computers, they don't have earphones. So they all have to be very separated in order to do that.
But my green is fine just to sit in her bed and do that. You know, and I realize that isn't working for her. Like, she just can't focus. We moved a desk into her room and we went out and got some stuff and set it up. [00:27:40] She literally said last night, "I feel so much more prepared to be able to engage in virtual learning tomorrow. Thank you for helping set this up."
And what I realized is providing some structure for my green to set her up for the best success is going to just help her be able to be successful. I also think giving her space. I mean, we're on online learning from 8:20 to 3:30. And so last night, really motivating her by giving her space and time with some friends from five to nine was what she needed to be able to just get out of the house and to be outside.
So for my red-blue daughter, that isn't as important. She isn't missing that social interaction quite as much. So I think knowing what motivated my green, one, her not feeling alone. I think her knowing that I was there to support her and set her up for her desk and her school was really important. We even got her a little planner and she felt excited about that. [00:28:41] And then just having that freedom to be with friends last night really was filling up her cup. And so that was super helpful for her.
Laura Dugger: That helps us brainstorm ways to support our green because it seems they do appreciate the accountability, even if they're controlling by this procrastination or choosing to dig in their heels or be stubborn, that it sounds like she even came back and was able to circle back and say, thank you.
Jenny Boyett: Yes. She really wants to be successful. It's just sometimes I think they're so indecisive that they need a little push to go, "You know what? I don't think sitting in your bed and trying to doing this is going to be good. Let's try this," and leave room for maybe she'll come back and say, "No, I don't like that as much" and I'll find her on her computer in her bed. But right now I think she feels like she had support and was able to have lack of stress because I kind of engaged with her and helped set it up. So, yeah, absolutely. [00:29:43]
Laura Dugger: Finally, our blues. I'll give you two different scenarios to see which one resonates. So for the littler kids, it seems like blues are more likely to be our whiners or as they get older, those blues with the deep emotions, maybe if they're really struggling with forgiveness because of their high standards for themselves and others. How would you encourage us to parent through those scenarios?
Jenny Boyett: Oh, goodness. I mean, the blues are super hard on themselves, so they don't need you to be much harder on them. I have found trying to help them get out of their head and to focus on their strengths and what went well has been really important. Even as little kids I think we can do that and focus on, "What went well here and what did we learn from that? And then what are we going to do different next time?" so they have a plan. [00:30:42] Because our blues are all about wanting a plan.
And then being able to motivate them to is just being super sensitive and identifying and validating what they're feeling. I think our blues want us to understand where they're coming from, even if we don't agree. They want to know that we understand and can empathize with their position. That's what I have found to be helpful in me connecting with my daughter that has blue and also supporting her so she feels loved and affirmed.
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As we think of the unique interactions between the two colors represented in every parent-child relationship, what encouragement do you want to share for that?
Jenny Boyett: I mean, I put all of this up on my fridge just so I can remind myself what each child needs and how to engage in this and how to not do this. It does feel overwhelming at times, but I think the main piece that I try to focus on is, what is one thing that I can do to fill each of them up with one of their needs each day?
It can even be little things like my yellow, if I just will come around the corner and scare her, she'll think that's fun. And that kind of fills that for the day, right? So there are unique interactions.
And there are some that are a little bit harder. [00:33:43] It's a little bit easier for me to connect with my yellow because I am a yellow, right? Whereas for me to connect with my red-blue daughter, even though I have some red in me, the blue is so foreign to me that it can be opposite and it can be hard.
And so when you're thinking of some of those opposite relationships... Let's take the blue-yellow, for example. I'm a yellow mom, and so I like to have fun and get all in her business and all that. But giving her space and... when I fold her laundry for her and the way she likes it is like I'm singing her love language, you know?
But on the opposite side, I'm sure we have some blue moms listening, and they have a yellow child. And that blue mom out there that likes things organized and planned, I mean, maybe you surprise your yellow child with letting them make a mess or you being the one to start it.
One of my friends is a blue mom, and they did plateless spaghetti, which is something that we've done in my family. As a yellow, that's not a big deal at all. [00:34:43] You just get a plastic tablecloth, and your kids don't expect you to let there be a mess. And when you use no plates and throw the spaghetti down and they're just like, what's going on? Mom's lost her mind. Those are things that will actually make a memory for some of those, and your yellow children would just love it.
So I feel like getting out of our own way and our own temperament to engage with them is really helpful. When I think of some red-green combinations, the red mom, sometimes they are not understanding why the green just doesn't want to get out of the house in the morning. Like, "Come on, chop, chop, chop. We got to go. We got to go." And they're constantly hurrying the child to get out of the house.
And to realize that, Gosh, the child doesn't want to rush. You know, the child is really struggling. And so maybe the red mom sets the schedule back 15 minutes just to prepare to intentionally give the green child almost like, "You know what? Let's take five minutes. We don't need to rush today." I mean, that would blow the green child's mind. Like, "What? We're always rushing trying to get different places." [00:35:49] Because the red moms are so proactive and they're trying to accomplish a lot, the green just doesn't want to accomplish a whole lot.
In fact, this is a true story. I have a good friend and she's a red mom and she has a green daughter. The red mom wants this child to be a sports person and play sports and be so focused on that, and the child is not interested. The only reason he's interested in baseball is because it's an activity with teammates.
So the mom is there like, you know, wants him to win, wants the team to win and really is only happy if the team won. And what she realized recently as we were talking temperaments was her focused on just the winning actually crushed his spirit because even one of the games that they lost, he felt so connected to the teammates and they went out to dinner afterwards and had such a good time connecting with friends that that was a win for him. [00:36:52]
And when she just minimized it to baseball successful, if you play well and if the team wins, was really opposite to what was going on in his mind. And when that clicked for her, it really changed their relationship and she was able to connect with him more around the friend aspect. That doesn't mean she doesn't want the team to win because she certainly does. But it just helped her not put as much emphasis on that piece of it and to be sensitive to the relationship side that was important to her son.
Laura Dugger: That is awesome. I'm wondering for the green-red the other way, do the green parents often feel controlled by their red child or what are some of the other struggles there?
Jenny Boyett: I have definitely heard that. Yes, they feel like they're running the roost and that they're in control. So the green parent will almost be really stubborn to try to show their authority to the red child when it's in their weakness.
I think having those conversations and really celebrating what the red child can bring to the household, but establishing that they're in authority is crucial. [00:38:03] Because, yes, the red child will try to 100 percent take over that red parent all day long.
Laura Dugger: So when the red child is trying to take over the green parent and they're being really disrespectful, that touches on something for the green parent because they need that feeling of respect. So how do you encourage the green parent in that moment?
Jenny Boyett: I mean, I think what the green parent can do is really focus in on the red strengths and talk about, "Hey, you are a leader. God made you a leader worth following. Being a good leader is also being under authority. One of my needs is for respect. And when you talk over me or you disrespect me or don't obey me, that's not being a good leader. And God wired you to be a good leader."
So I think the reds motivating them by what their strengths are and encouraging them to be in their strengths and understand that even a good leader is still under authority. And what that looks like will go a long way to motivate the red. [00:39:12]
Because I'm a yellow parent, but I have a very strong 10-year-old red daughter, and I have to do that all the time. Instead of being frustrated with her leadership, I want to breathe life into that, but let her know, "Hey, this is disrespectful. This actually isn't being a good leader. And God designed you to be a good leader. God designed you to be decisive, but this isn't the time that you get to make the decision. This is mommy's decision."
So I think just having very clear conversations with our reds helps them understand and know what their boundaries are and puts up the guardrails for them to be able to be their best self.
Laura Dugger: Oh, Jenny, that is so good. Are there any other lessons as it relates to temperaments and parenting that we haven't covered yet?
Jenny Boyett: I feel like the best tip that I ever got from Kathleen was these three little words. And it's "tell me more". That has helped me as a parent so much because it allows me to hear more of the heart behind the story or their complaint or their issue before jumping to a conclusion and trying to fix it, if you will. [00:40:19]
I just encourage every parent, I think you can do that even when they're little toddlers, if you can create some margin to be able to ask that question. Because even now, now that I have 16-year-olds and I say, tell me more, and it's 10 o'clock at night, I'm realizing for my yellow that might mean an hour conversation, you know. And so I've got to prepare myself for the hour answer to that question. But I do think it's so important because it really gives you the heart behind what is going on and it'll help guide you in what your next step is.
Laura Dugger: And because we love practicality that ideally leads to transformation, what resources do you recommend for further learning related to this topic?
Jenny Boyett: Kathleen has a book out, I Said This, You Heard That. It's a workbook. There's like 15 videos. There's some Ask Kathleen videos that are all on the YouTube channel. So if they just go to the ISaidYouHear.Study or look up I Said This, You Heard That on YouTube, you would be able to find all of that information. [00:41:24]
And then I love following along on social media as well with Facebook and Instagram because there's also tips and posts that come up that we can all learn from each other, you know, practical tips on, Oh, yes, how do I motivate my green today in this season? So I encourage them to look that all up.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Her resource is so incredible. We'll actually plan to give one away on social media this week as well. Jenny, where can listeners follow up with you online?
Jenny Boyett: In my role at North Point, I am part of our resource team. And so if they have a direct message and want to get it to me and go to the I Said This, You Heard That Facebook or Instagram direct message, they'll get it to me. So I would be happy to engage with anyone that had a question or wanted to follow up.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We, as always, will link to that in our show notes and our resources tab of the website so people can follow up and find that information easily. [00:42:25] But we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight and we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. So as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Jenny Boyett: I would boil it down to find a good counselor or mentor. I feel like I have become a better version of myself by being in counseling and learning about myself, but then also having mentors and coaches that I can bounce things off of. And that's one of the reasons I love your podcast, because we can become the best versions of ourselves by learning this information.
But to me, having someone to talk it through with, like a good counselor or coach or mentor, is the practical application to actually putting it into practice. So find a good coach or mentor would be my savvy sauce ingredient. [00:43:27]
Laura Dugger: Oh, my goodness, that is so good. Well said. And thank you for those kind words. We have mutual friends and I've always heard just the most wonderful things about you for years and it was all confirmed in getting to chat with you today. You're so vibrant and skilled in your communication and vocation. So thank you so very much for being my guest today.
Jenny Boyett: Oh, thank you. I know. Vice versa. I'm like, next time you're in town, we've got to meet face-to-face because I've heard such great things about you and love what you're doing with your podcast. And I'm happy to be a part of it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:44:26]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:45:28]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:46:27]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 19, 2020
Monday Oct 19, 2020
117. Romantic Love in Marriage with Dr. Willard Harvey
**Transcription Below**
Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D. is best known as author of the internationally best selling book, His Needs, Her Needs. Over four million copies have been purchased, and it is available in twenty-two foreign translations.
Dr. Harley earned a Ph.D. degree in psychology from the University of California at Santa Barbara in 1967 and has been a Licensed Clinical Psychologist in Minnesota since 1975. Dr. and Mrs. Harley also host a daily one-hour call-in show, Marriage Builders® Radio. It can be heard on radio stations and on the Internet. They live in White Bear Lake, Minnesota. They have two adult children, who are now working with them as marriage coaches, and four grandchildren. They are also great-grandparents.
Other Episodes Related to Marriage and Gender Differences:
36 Gender Differences and Common Relationship Conflict with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
37 Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson
50 Understanding Gender Differences in Marriage with Dr. Ted and Ang Bryant
61 Marital Communication and Intentional Family Life with Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Susan Seay
65 Simple Solutions to Help You Prepare For, Enrich, or Save Your Marriage with Dr. Matthew Turvey, Director of WinShape Marriage
85 5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
93 Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn
107 Communication and Healthy Conflict Resolution with Kelley Gray
108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
111 Building Love Together in Blended Families with Ron Deal
113 Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Dr. Willard Harley:
His Needs, Her Needs for Parents
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Dr. Willard Harley is best known internationally for his best-selling book entitled, His Needs, Her Needs. This resource has helped millions of marriages. I am honored to interview him as my guest today.
Dr. Harley is going to help us understand our emotional needs, and he's going to share these subtle attitudes and actions that are most likely to hurt our marriages. I think you're going to leave this conversation feeling equipped to make small and thoughtful changes in your romantic relationship that will pay off with incredible results.
Here's our chat.[00:01:27]
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Harley.
Dr. Willard Harley: Thank you. Glad to be with you today.
Laura Dugger: Will you just start us off by sharing a bit more about your journey to becoming a marriage expert?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, I actually started out in mathematics and physics and engineering. The idea of becoming a marriage expert was about the farthest thing from my mind. I was going to be a computer programmer, and I was interested in computer technology and artificial intelligence.
The artificial intelligence part was what got the attention of the psychology department, the university where I was doing postgraduate work. And so they offered me a chance to get a PhD in psychology in three years without getting a master's or anything. And I jumped at the opportunity. So three years later, I'm a psychologist.
I became more and more interested in the problems that people had. [00:02:28] I've been involved in the interaction with people with their problems probably since I was a teenager. My dad is a psychologist.
So people would come to me with their marriage problems and didn't understand what it would take to have a great marriage, didn't do any reading on the subject, and I became a failure.
I'm not good at being a failure. So the longer I was approached by people with their marriage problems, the more I thought, "I better learn how to do this because people are coming to me." I'm a firm believer that the Lord gives us opportunities. And what that usually means is that He wants us to learn something about this so that we can follow His will. So I learned. I learned how to be a marriage counselor.
This took me quite a number of years, a lot of failure. Eventually, I got to a point where I was really good at this sort of thing. [00:03:28] I was able to save a lot of marriages and started writing books on it. And here we are today talking about marriage.
Laura Dugger: From that experience, just to follow up with a few questions, was it through just experiencing couples and talking to them or through reading other books? Or what do you feel like really aided that process of going from a failure to a success?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, I read a lot of books. As a matter of fact, I did an internship and studied the methods that people were using. I became very much aware that the methods that were available at the time, which was in the 60s, didn't work.
In the 70s, the people that I did the internship with, the director of the program, got divorced. Even though they claimed a 90 percent success rate, I discovered that that was a lie. They were probably not really very successful in any of their programs. And so I decided to just kind of create something from scratch. [00:04:31]
In my graduate training in psychology, I studied behavioral psychology, and I became aware of the fact that you could teach people how to feel certain ways. It's called classical conditioning, Pavlov's dog kind of stuff. And I thought, "I wonder if this could apply to marriage."
So I took up the issue of romantic love as a study. I studied romantic love. What is it? Can you measure it? Can you create it? Can you destroy it? Can it be sustained? Over a period of about five years, with the help of students that I had when I was teaching, we did a series of studies on romantic love.
That helped me not only understand how to create romantic love, but I became aware of what a powerful effect that it had on marriage. [00:05:31] No couple that I had ever seen that were in love. By this time, I could actually measure it. I knew whether people are in love or not, ever wanted to get divorced.
So I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to save marriages, all I had to do is teach people how to be in love when they're married. And sure enough, it worked really well. I became a sensation. People were coming to me from all over the United States.
Basically, I started writing books about how I did all these. I would say today, millions of people have actually had their marriages saved by learning how to be in love when they were married. And I do this to this day.
Laura Dugger: And so what was your original discovery, how couples can restore that feeling of love?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, when you think about conditioning, what you're thinking about, okay, what I want to do is I want to associate a spouse with good feelings. I mean, if I want Joyce to like me, all I want to be sure to do is to make sure that she ends up feeling good when I'm around. [00:06:36]
And the question is, can I have any impact on that? And, of course, I can. I can make her feel good when I'm around, or I can make her feel bad when I'm around. So I learned how to avoid making her feel bad when I was around, and I learned how to make her feel good.
Now, in my studies, I didn't do this with Joyce, actually. I didn't do the studies with her. I did it with other people. I asked people, what could your spouse do that would make you the happiest? I was looking basically at what could we do to get people to fall in love by associating them with enough good experiences that it would trigger romantic love, which is basically what I consider to be a threshold of pleasure with a particular person, where the person then becomes irresistible to you.
By surveying hundreds of people and asking them, what can you do, what your spouse could do to make you happy, I came up with 10 categories that I considered to be the most important emotional needs.[00:07:40] And then I told people, just prioritize them for me. Tell me what you need the most from your spouse.
I was interested basically in making sure that each spouse would know where to put their greatest effort. In other words, whatever the highest priorities were on these emotional needs would be something that they could then learn how to do. And by doing that, they would make each other happy.
I use the concept of the love bank. I created that concept back in the 70s to help people understand how associating your spouse with good feelings would create romantic love, because you make enough love bank deposits, you breach the romantic love threshold. It was a simple concept for people to learn.
They began understanding that whatever they did affected each other, either positively or negatively. And they learned how to affect each other positively by meeting the top emotional needs that were listed for them as a couple. [00:08:41]
What I discovered, though, was that men would give me one list out of the ten and women would give me an entirely different list. The top five needs for men on average tended to be the bottom five for women. That doesn't mean that they didn't enjoy the bottom five. I mean, these are all things people enjoy, but it just wasn't that enjoyable compared to the top five.
The opposite was true for women. The top five for women was the lowest five for men. So I was encouraging people to do all of it, of course. But the top two are making the biggest love bank deposit. So focus on those. Then the next three would be something you'd sure want to be skilled in. And even though you need to recognize the rest of the list, that's where you want to put your greatest effort in the top.
So the needs for men had a higher priority than the needs for women. [00:09:41] So I taught women how to meet needs that weren't that important to them and men how to meet needs that weren't that important to them either, and bingo, they would fall in love with each other within a very short period of time in my counseling experience.
So it's an unusual approach to marriage. Usually, you're thinking about communication skills and you're thinking about negotiating. I just went right to the heart of the matter and I said, What can I do to get you to be in love with each other? You do this stuff, you do this for me and you'll be in love. And sure enough, couples that I counseled experienced that.
Then I discovered once they were in love, their communication problems were over. They were communicating just fine and they were negotiating just fine. In other words, being in love actually triggers instinct in us that we're much better at being a marriage partner when we're in love. So that's been my approach throughout the years and it's worked pretty good. [00:10:44]
Laura Dugger: Yes, that paradigm shift seems to be very successful. I definitely want to recommend that people can pick up different copies of your books. The one that comes to mind is His Needs, Her Needs. So they'd have to read to go through all of them. But do you mind just giving a little sample of what some of those top five needs were for each gender?
Dr. Willard Harley: Yes. I have to preface this by saying that everybody's different. Not any couple in particular have the same top five needs as any other couple in particular. I'm talking about averages.
So a couple need to understand that they're going to have different priorities when it comes to emotional needs. And so instead of telling people what their emotional needs are, I want them to discover it. We offer the emotional needs questionnaire free of charge on the marriagebuilders.com website. You just download it, fill it out, and then you learn from your spouse what their top emotional needs are, what yours are, and then you go to work learning how to meet them. [00:11:50]
But on average, the top five emotional needs for men are sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, physical attractiveness, domestic support, and admiration.
For women, the top five emotional needs are usually affection, intimate conversation, honesty and openness, financial support, and family commitment. Now, that's not saying that men and women don't have those same emotional needs. Like a woman will have a need for admiration, too, and a man will have a need for affection.
But it's just not the higher priority. You don't make as many love bank deposits by meeting the needs on the bottom of their list as you would on the top of their list. So I get people to focus more on what's ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and get to work meeting those emotional needs and you'll find that you're going to fall in love much quicker.[00:12:52]
Laura Dugger: It sounds like a key piece of this is engaging in conversation with our spouse to understand them. And maybe the first way to do that is take that questionnaire. But then I'm so curious, from your findings, even though everyone is different, was there consistently one or two that rose up the most for males and females?
Dr. Willard Harley: Yeah. And as a matter of fact, it's so consistent that I started telling people, I don't care what you write down on your emotional needs questionnaire, this is what I want you to do. Because sometimes the emotional needs questionnaire would not accurately reflect what turned out to be the most important emotional needs.
And so I would tell husbands and wives, here are four emotional needs that I want you all to meet. I want you to meet the need for affection, intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. I don't care what your questionnaire looks like. [00:13:54] I want you to meet those needs for each other. That worked out really well.
As a matter of fact, what I did eventually was I defined those four emotional needs as being the essential components of a romantic date. I started by telling people what you need to do is have romantic dates, because that way you can make the most love bank deposits in the fewest amount of time.
Then I got to a point where I said, You know, in order to do this right, you really need 15 hours a week. You got to spend 15 hours a week, what I call giving undivided attention. But basically what it is is 15 hours of romantic dates every week, three to five hours each where those four emotional needs are met. And wow, I just saw my whole program take off.
So that little component where you take four emotional needs and you really put a lot of energy into meeting those in romantic dates, basically, it clears the whole area of obstacles. [00:15:00] So I put a great deal of emphasis on that. Once I get people to do romantic dates with each other, their romantic relationship really thrives.
Laura Dugger: How did you arrive at that 15 hours number? I love that.
Dr. Willard Harley: Basically it was trial and error. You know, I would tell some couples that just have a Friday night date and see what happens. You know, because they have their Friday night date, and it would be good. People would say, well, "It's a lot better than it used to be." And then I tried 10 hours. I tried 25 hours. I had people pretty cooperative with me because their marriage was about to go on to the rocks and they were willing to do just about anything I told them to do.
And what I found was that you got about as much bang for the buck out of 15 hours as you would 25 hours. But if you were at 10 hours, it really wouldn't work that well. And so I settled on 15 hours. [00:15:59] Mainly out of observation, I just said, "This is what seems to work."
Joyce and I actually throughout our entire married life have spent more than 15 hours a week on romantic dates. Now, I just did it not because I discovered that that was the right thing to do, but because that was something that I had done from the beginning.
So Joyce and I have been in love for 56 years now. We have romantic dates every day. Now that we're older, we have more time. So we probably spend 30 hours a week, maybe more than that, on romantic dates. Get out of the house, do something fun. We have a recreational experience, a lot of hugging and kissing, great conversation. We do it as a lifestyle.
Laura Dugger: Okay, I just want to clarify. When we're talking about these 15 hours of special dates, some people may assume that we're talking about the traditional date that comes to mind with a babysitter and time out of the house. [00:17:02] But what you're saying is actually way more realistic.
I know it's different for everyone listening, but in our situation, for example, our kids usually go to bed about two to three hours before we do. So if we're intentional with that time, that's our 15 hours for the week.
Or I know of some friends who do have older kids and they stay up later. So they get a sitter and go out for a few hours on a date, and then they connect for an hour over lunch every day. And then maybe they're chatting on the phone for 30 minutes during their commute. So if you sprinkle that in with other times, I think it is possible to add up to these 15 hours, regardless of life stage.
So getting a sitter and going out is definitely included but this is just intentional time with our spouse when our attention is undivided. So maybe a good place to start is with an inventory of how we are spending our time with our spouse. And I hope that clarifies what's included in these 15 hours. [00:18:06]
Dr. Willard Harley: Yes. When you're in love, that kind of thing is really easy to do. It's when you're not in love that you got to put a little energy into it to get yourself to a point where you're feeling romantic love. Then romantic dates are very, very easy to do. You know exactly what to do. The skill levels increase tremendously. But 15 hours is something that I consider to be kind of a minimum. If you really want to see a romantic relationship blossom.
Laura Dugger: I really like that as a starting point, because when we think about it, we have 168 hours a week, and 15 of those that comes out to less than 10 percent of our time. So I think as I'm processing this, I just want to reflect back on my past week and think of how much time Mark and I spent together and then really carve that out as, like you said, a bare minimum going forward. We're parents of four young children and I still would say we're not off the hook. [00:19:08] This is very realistic to reach these 15 hours if it's a priority.
Dr. Willard Harley: It is. And my argument has always been that if you've got four children, you really need to be in love because there's a lot of choices that are made. Life becomes complicated. You have a lot of conflicts of all kinds. And when you're in love, the whole experience is much more enjoyable.
When you're not in love. Then the conflicts become tragedy sometimes. A lot of people think that I'm being kind of superficial. They say, what about commitment? Isn't commitment important? And I do. I agree that commitment is important.
I talk about caring love and romantic love. Those are two different kinds of love. Caring love is a decision, romantic love is a reaction. It's a feeling. Caring love is something I can commit myself to. I call it goodwill. I want Joyce to be happy. [00:20:08] I want her to be successful. I will do what I can to make her life the best that I can do. And that's what caring love is. I've made the commitment. I offer her extraordinary care.
But even if I offer her extraordinary care, if I'm not giving her the care in the right places, she won't be in love with me. She can't make herself be in love with me. I have to do specific things for her to trigger her feeling of romantic love. She has no control over it whatsoever. Same thing is with me. I have no control over my romantic love for her. It's what she does for me.
So we can have all the caring love in the world. We can have the commitment to care for each other deeply. But if we don't know where to put that care, what priorities to use to make sure that the care that I give Joyce or what she needs the most and get to be really good at it, we both will care for each other for the rest of our lives and we will have a relationship that I'm sure the Lord would approve of, but we wouldn't be in love. [00:21:14] So there is a technical problem here for many couples that do care for each other.
What can we do so that we can be in love with each other? There is a scientific answer to that question. I'd say 20 percent of all couples are like Joyce and me and probably like you and your husband, that are in love and have a romantic relationship. That's what makes marriages really terrific.
Laura Dugger: I would agree with that. And I do just have to brag on my husband. I do think he's the most wonderful husband in the world and have always felt in love with him. We've been married just over 11 years, so not quite as long as you and Joyce.
One of our ongoing goals or things to keep top of mind every year is to invest a disproportionate amount of time in one another. So I think it's kind of like these romantic dates that you're talking about. And that return on investment is incredible and it affects all other areas of life. [00:22:15] So I guess I just want to affirm everything that you're saying.
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, thank you. I love to hear positive outcomes. Even though I've heard them all my life, every one of them is valuable to me. Every one of them makes me feel like I've been spending my life better doing this than I would have working on artificial intelligence.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage.
Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. [00:23:19]
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.
I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: Well, we've talked about different emotional needs, but then will you also share some of your examples of love busters, and maybe a few practical remedies that would be helpful?
Dr. Willard Harley: Okay, yeah. Love busters is the downside of marriage in the sense that when I think about extraordinary care, I'm thinking about making my wife happy. [00:24:20] But extraordinary care also deals with protection.
I am the most likely cause of Joyce's unhappiness. Why? Because I am so involved in everything that she does. I'm in a position to hurt her more than anybody else on earth. And if I do, she can't get away from me very easily because we're married. So as a commitment, as a way of showing her caring love, my goal is to avoid hurting her at all costs.
So there are six ways that I can hurt her. I can make demands. I can tell her what to do when it's good for me and bad for her. Number two, I can be disrespectful. I can judge her and consider her to be unworthy of my efforts. That's terribly hurtful in marriage. [00:25:23] It makes what I call massive love bank withdrawals. So no matter how much I might be doing to make love bank deposits, if I'm being disrespectful to her, I'm probably ending up making more love bank withdrawals.
Angry outbursts is another love buster. Then something that I used to have a real problem with, not with Joyce, but in general, I had a problem with my anger. And I learned how to completely overcome it so that I would never lose my temper with her. And I never have. Throughout my entire married life I've never lost my temper with her once.
Then there is dishonesty. Joyce and I have what we call radical honesty. Nothing gets by. There is no deception whatsoever.
Dishonesty is a terrible love buster. It does all sorts of horrible things in marriage because it gives you the wrong impression about each other. It creates what I call a secret second life where your spouse doesn't know something you're doing that would be terribly offensive. [00:26:23]
Honesty is an emotional need for women. The more honest you are in your relationship, the more love bank deposits you're making.
Then there is also annoying habits. Now, I happen to be a very annoying person. Now, you might not think of that way. Looking at my picture it doesn't look too annoying. But Joyce will tell you that I'm very annoying. Women in general find their husband having annoying habits.
A man has to learn how to accommodate those complaints. I take every one of her complaints seriously. I do not find her annoying at all. So if you make a list of annoying habits that she finds me annoying, it would be very long. Annoying habits for her, there's nothing on the sheet.
And a lot of men will say, look, because I don't find you annoying, you shouldn't find me annoying. We could go into this in great detail, but it has to do with women's brains. [00:27:24] Women are much more aware of their surroundings. They notice things more.
And so their husband will do something that is annoying, and the question is, should she just ignore it? And my point is, it's a love buster. You're withdrawing love units whenever you do that. And so I make a real effort to accommodate every one of her complaints. If she finds something I'm doing annoying, I try to adjust to that. And over a period of years, I've gotten real good at eliminating a lot of things on the list.
Then finally, there's independent behavior. Independent behavior is doing things as if your spouse doesn't exist. For example, for me just to go off and make a decision without consulting her, without considering her feelings, is a love buster. And it is the greatest cause of resentment in marriage.
Whenever a woman feels resentful toward her husband, it is because he has been engaging in independent behavior over the years, and he keeps doing it over and over again. [00:28:24] It's a huge obstacle to romantic love.
Anyway, those are the six love busters. And if you can eliminate all six, you have a clean shot to having a great romantic relationship.
Laura Dugger: I think that was incredibly helpful to hear some specific examples. So we won't go through all of them, but going back to the needs of each spouse, could you just give a few real-life examples of what that might look like to add deposits into the love bank?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, let's talk about intimate conversation, because intimate conversation is a huge issue for women. They want to be able to talk to their husbands. I talk about the friends of good conversation and the enemies of good conversation.
What is intimate conversation? It is, first of all, you're talking about each other. It's a personal conversation. You're talking about your favorite topics, things that you enjoy talking about the most. [00:29:25] You balance the conversation when you're talking. Both of you talk about the same amount of time, and you're giving each other undivided attention. That is what makes intimate conversation work.
Now, if you engage in demands, disrespect, anger, and dwelling on mistakes of the past, those are the enemies of intimate conversation. So, to the extent that you and your husband can actually sit down and talk, just to enjoy talking, which is, from my perspective, the backbone of a romantic relationship.
If you're in a romantic relationship, you are engaged in great conversation. Period. Now, there are other components. There's affection. There's sexual fulfillment. There's recreational companionship. But I would say that the thing that makes romantic relationships really romantic is the way people talk to each other in a romantic situation.
Laura Dugger: Putting all of this together, as we look at some of this honesty that you had been talking about and about not doing this independent behavior, it reminds me of a few policies that you've written about. [00:30:39] And I think it might be helpful just to state those as a summary. So, would you share the policy of joint agreement and the policy of radical honesty?
Dr. Willard Harley: Those are the two policies that come together to create what I call transparency. Transparency in marriage is extremely important. You are on the same page, that you're making your choices together, that you understand each other, and that you're operating as a team, not as two separate individuals.
So, the policy of joint agreement is never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. Now, I've gotten a lot of blowback on that one, especially for men. Do you mean to tell me I have to get my wife's permission to do everything? Can't I make some of my own choices? Can't I have my own friends? Can't I have my own hobbies? [00:31:39] Do you mean I'm kind of stuck with her all the time?
And I would say, yep, that's the way it's going to have to be. When you're married to somebody, that person has to become your partner. In Genesis, it says that the two become united. The two become one in Genesis chapter 3. The two become one.
In marriage, what God has intended for all of us is to benefit from each other's brains. Joyce's brain is very different than my brain. It's physically different. I used to teach neurophysiology, and I used to show a man's brain and a woman's brain. They're different. Men think differently. Women think differently.
And by combining the two brains into a joint agreement, in joint enthusiastic agreement, we're getting the wisdom of both people who have different perspectives. [00:32:39] We're back-to-back. Joyce looks out and sees the mountains. I, on the other hand, am seeing the ocean. The question is, which one of us is right? We're both right.
And as long as we understand that about each other, as long as we respect each other's perspectives and learn from those perspectives, the policy of joint agreement is not difficult to do. Coming to an enthusiastic agreement means that I respect her opinion and won't make any decisions until I have been able to understand how her opinion would affect the choices that we're supposed to make.
And by doing that, we make wiser choices. We make smarter choices to say nothing about the fact that when we make a decision, we're making love bank deposits in both of our love banks simultaneously.
So on the one hand, it's a practical rule, on the other hand, it's a caring rule. If I do something without her agreement, it means I'm being thoughtless. And so sometimes we need rules to help us from being selfish, and that's one of them. [00:33:40]
Now, the other one is the policy of radical honesty. Reveal everything you know about yourself, your history, your current behavior, current activities, your future plans, your emotional reactions. Reveal everything.
Now, most men will come to me and say, "Dr. Harley, you've got to be crazy. If I reveal everything to my wife, she will run in horror. I don't think good thoughts all the time. I say, Okay, here's the caveat. If it's disrespectful, don't tell her. If it's a judgment about her, don't tell her. Say that it bothers you. You wish it could be different. But don't judge her. Other than that, everything you're thinking she should know about.
Again, it gets rid of the secret second life. It gets rid of obstacles to transparency. She knows her husband. She knows what he thinks. She knows how he feels. And this man is totally different than anything she has ever felt. [00:34:46] Totally different. He is a different creature. And God made us differently. And God made us to help each other out.
Anyway, those two come together. Those two rules come together to create great decision-making, accommodation, care. It helps avoid selfishness in marriage. To me, they're two great rules.
When people are in love and when people care about each other, those two rules make a ton of sense. When they're having struggles, they have a problem with the rules. And the reason they're having struggles is because they're not following those rules.
Laura Dugger: Those two together really seem to usher in intimacy. And just to restate them, if somebody has your book, He Wins, She Wins, on page 122, you sum it up, and it's super practical. You say, "Give your spouse, your undivided attention a minimum of 15 hours a week, using the time to meet each other's emotional needs for affection, intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companionship." [00:35:52]
And then if somebody needs to hear it again, that policy of radical honesty, in case you want to listen to this message and maybe discuss it with your spouse, that policy says, "Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know. Your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future. I think that's a great starting point to lead to deeper intimacy in marriage.
Dr. Willard Harley: Yeah, it's a guideline. It's a help to get people started. When they're in a romantic relationship, these rules are much easier to follow, and they become almost instinctive. It's when you're not in a romantic relationship, and you want to get back to the romantic relationship that you once had you need the rules to get you there. But once you're there, the rules make a lot more sense.
Laura Dugger: Patreon can be a tricky thing to explain, so let me try to boil this down. [00:36:56] The time and financial investment our team gives to bring you all these episodes on The Savvy Sauce costs us hundreds of dollars and many hours each week. And we cannot fully cover that cost through advertisers and kickbacks from the purchases you make by ordering resources through our links. We do need other revenue streams to secure the future of this podcast.
One easy way you can participate and support the future of The Savvy Sauce is through becoming a patron. We want to make this possible for anyone listening, so we have two, five, and $20 levels available each month. You can sign up with a few clicks by visiting thesavvysauce.com, then you click the Patreon tab, and then follow the prompts after clicking "Join Patreon Here". Thank you for your generosity in partnering with us.
When it comes to communication and conflict resolution, how can couples begin to negotiate more successfully? [00:38:00]
Dr. Willard Harley: The real problem with communication in marriage is respect. To the extent that I respect Joyce's perspective, we have great communication. If I disrespect her perspective, if I try to talk her into my perspective and tell her that her perspective is wrong, we're going to have terrible communication.
So when it comes to problem-solving, the first thing you have to be able to do in learning how to communicate with each other is your conversation has to be pleasant and safe.
The love chapter, 1 Corinthians chapter 13, says very little about what you're supposed to do. It's mostly what you're not supposed to do in that chapter. But in verse 4, it talks about what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to be kind and patient.
That's what has to happen when you are talking to each other, especially if you have a conflict. You have to start with kindness and patience. [00:39:06] It has to be safe and enjoyable.
And then the next step is you have to understand each other's perspectives. "How do you feel? What do you think?" Having respect for a perspective that you don't agree with is perfectly okay. I can respect something that I say to Joyce, "I would like to know more about how you came up with that." And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. I'm sincerely interested in how she arrives at that conclusion based on her perspective.
And then if we have a conflict, then we need to brainstorm. "I know your perspective. I know my perspective. Now, how are the ways that we can resolve this?"
And then the policy of joint agreement is the deciding rule. Only things that we can both enthusiastically agree to are the things that we're going to actually settle on as a solution to the conflict. So great communication usually means great respect. Great respect for the other person's perspective and efforts on our parts not to be selfish and not to be judgmental. [00:40:08]
Laura Dugger: And I love that you bring in the biblical teaching because this is the way of love and also the way of wisdom because it makes me think of Proverbs 3 when wisdom is personified. And it says her ways are pleasant ways and all her paths are peace.
Dr. Willard Harley: Yes. And peace is such a big deal in marriage. Conflict is such a horrible thing. Conflict is okay if you think of conflict as we haven't yet arrived at a solution yet. That's okay. But if you think of conflict as fighting and arguing, then it turns what marriage should be into a nightmare.
Marriage can be the greatest experience of all time, and it can be the worst experience of all time, depending on how you communicate with each other. And this is where, you know, I do spend quite a bit of time encouraging people to resolve their conflicts with respect.
I'm not alone on that. Lots of people, lots of marital therapists will agree with me on that. [00:41:13] But where I differ is that in creating romantic love, it's much easier to resolve your conflicts with mutual care. Also, if you're not in love, you'll find that you're going to tend to argue a lot more.
So when you're not in love, you've got to follow my rules more carefully because your selfishness will tend to ruin everything. But once you're in love, it's really much easier to do all of these things that I recommend.
Laura Dugger: Well, Dr. Harley, you're laying out an incredible vision, really, of godly and biblical marriage. And so are there any questions that we can begin to ask ourselves or our spouse to get on the right path toward making our marriage even better?
Dr. Willard Harley: There are three questionnaires that I offer on the marriagebuilders.com website in the questionnaire section that I think couples should be filling out every once in a while. Some people I counsel, even though their marriages are really great, they still fill it out every two or three years. [00:42:16]
And that's the emotional needs questionnaire that we've talked about. What are your spouse's top emotional needs? Because in the emotional needs questionnaire is embedded a section that has to do with helpful ideas. In other words, what could you do to meet this emotional need better than it's already being met?
The second questionnaire is a love busters questionnaire. What are we doing to hurt each other and what can we do to avoid that?
Then the third is what I call the marital problem analysis. And what you do there is you prioritize the problems that you have. When you filled out the emotional needs questionnaire, which emotional needs need to be worked on? And when you fill out the love busters questionnaire, which love busters need to be worked on?
Well, marital problem analysis prioritizes each of these things. So now we know where to put our effort to make our marriage better. So in a sense, what I've done is I've just given couples what marriage counselors do, which is they do an analysis of the problem. [00:43:20] You come in to see me, first thing I want to know is, what are your problems? What should we work on?
Well, these three questionnaires actually do that for you. So you can figure it out for yourself. And if you need more help, once these questionnaires are filled out, my book, His Needs, Her Needs, deals with the emotional needs part, Love Busters deals with the love busters part. And as you mentioned, He Wins, She Wins, talks about how to resolve conflicts better.
Laura Dugger: We will always link to all of these resources and eventually to your website in the show notes and Resources tab of our website. So we focused on marriage today, so I know we're not going to do this topic justice. But will you just whet our appetite to learn more from your book, His Needs, Her Needs for Parents?
Dr. Willard Harley: Yeah. His Needs, Her Needs for Parents is a book that I wrote to remind a couple that once you have children, it's very tempting to stop meeting each other's emotional needs. [00:44:26] The number one year for divorce is the first year. And you might expect that because, you know, you get married and maybe you didn't understand what this person was all about. And so the divorce in the first year is very common.
But the second most likely year for divorce is the year that the first child is born. That is tragic. That is absolutely tragic. And the reason for that is for many couples, what they were doing to maintain a romantic relationship prior to the birth of the first child, they stopped doing.
And so my book, His Needs, Her Needs for Parents is a reminder that the romantic relationship needs to go ahead after you have children for the sake of the children. Because if you fall out of love, if you're not meeting your emotional needs, you will be tempted to actually get a divorce. [00:45:26]
And even if you're not having a divorce, your relationship will be miserable, which is not the way your children should be seeing you. Your children should be seeing loving, caring husbands that care for each other the way the Lord wanted us to care for each other and that hug and kiss in the kitchen. Children love that. They want to see that. And if a husband and wife are arguing all the time, that's something you don't want to see in the children.
So my book, His Needs, Her Needs for Parents, is just to remind people, prioritize your relationship. Then I also have a section in there on what I call quality family time, which is, Okay, if you're going to spend time with your family, what should you be doing?
And it's a very important point that I make. I make it both in His Needs, Her Needs and also in this book. And that is that you want to teach your children values. And if you have quality family time where you're together as a family every week with the purpose of teaching values of thoughtfulness, those children are going to be much easier to raise, a lot less discipline, more enjoyment, more happiness, and everybody's going to be getting along. [00:46:40] Without that intervention, you find your kids fighting all the time and making your life miserable.
And then I have a section in His Needs, Her Needs for Parents just about ADHD, in-laws, blended families. So things that people have trouble with as an addendum to the book.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. And you and Joyce have raised how many children?
Dr. Willard Harley: We have only two. I wanted 10. But she said, Nope. She's an only child, and she likes having two children. Our two children now have two children and they have children of their own. So now we are great-grandparents three times, one more along the way. So almost four great-grandchildren.
Laura Dugger: Wow. That's incredible, incredible legacy. I have enjoyed this conversation through and through. [00:47:42] If anyone wants to learn more from you, where's the best place we can direct them?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, MarriageBuilders.com is our website. Joyce and I do a podcast every day. Actually, the program is on 20 radio stations right now. But you can get to podcasts with an app. Go to Marriage Builders Radio at the App Store — it's free of charge —download it, you'll hear our daily podcast. We have callers that call in, and we deal with topics. We have emails that come in regularly. And it's a daily program.
So that's another way to reach us is through our Marriage Builders Radio program, a podcast just like you have.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will try to make that as easy as possible to find on our website for today's episode, all of the show notes included. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. [00:48:42] And so as my final question for you today, Dr. Harley, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, you know, the whole question of what does it take to have a great marriage seems intuitive. You know, I mean, all the things that I've been telling you, what you need to do is treat each other with extraordinary care. That's not rocket science. That seems intuitive. It seems like common sense. Treat each other with extraordinary care.
Why don't people do that? It's just crazy. I look at my whole theory that I've created, romantic love and all the rest of that, and it just seems to be based on such common sense.
And people have told me that. And my argument has always been, well, then if it's such common sense, why do I get so much blowback from people? And so all I can tell people is that from a practical standpoint, it works. [00:49:41]
When I got married, all of these ideas that I am now proposing to other people were ideas that I had already accepted. I believe in extraordinary care as the foundation for marriage. Why doesn't everybody? Why do I have to teach people how to do this?
Of course, the answer is that we all have different perspectives on things. And just because one person has a perspective doesn't mean that that perspective shouldn't have to be taught to somebody. So for one person, it's common sense. For another person, it's something new.
Laura Dugger: Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this. You've been so generous with your time and your knowledge. I appreciate how you live this out with Joyce every day. So thank you for being my guest today, Dr. Harley.
Dr. Willard Harley: Well, I enjoyed being with you, Laura, and we hopefully will make connections with each other in the future. It looks to me like you're doing a great service for people, and I want to encourage you in what you're doing. [00:50:42]
Laura Dugger: Aw, thank you so much.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:51:43] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:52:43]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:53:46] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Thursday Oct 15, 2020
Thursday Oct 15, 2020
116. Abundance in Motherhood with Kara-Kae James
**Transcription Below**
John 10:10b (ESV) “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.”
Kara-Kae James is an author, speaker and podcaster who is passionate about seeing women’s lives changed and impacted through the gospel. She helps women find their place in big conversations and develop a true and honest faith. She is the host of “Asking for a Friend”, a weekly podcast that helps women navigate challenging topics about themselves, the church and the world. She is the author of the book “Mom Up: Thriving with Grace in the Chaos of Motherhood”, co-author of the Bible Studies Series: Abundance, Freedom and Rest, and author of “Together”, a journal that helps connect moms and their kids in an intentional way. Kara-Kae is married to her husband Brook of 12 years, and mom of four.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Rhythms of Renewal by Rebekah Lyons
The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer
Sacred Rhythms by Ruth Haley Barton
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Parabo Press is a photo printing service that wants to help you hold on to life's moments, big and small. They're offering a special freebie when you use the code SAVVY at checkout. Visit them at www.parabo.press. That's parabo.press.
Kara-Kae James is our guest today. She's going to share more about her path from postpartum anxiety to fully enjoying God's abundance. She's going to share helpful resources, rhythms, and mindsets that are currently helping her thrive.
She also is going to give us a behind-the-scenes picture of what the life of a writer looks like because she's been blogging for decades and released her first book, Mom Up, in 2019.
Here's our chat. [00:01:19]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara-Kae.
Kara-Kae James: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start with your story. Will you share why you describe motherhood as the mess of your life?
Kara-Kae James: Sure. So, kids are crazy, they're out of control and everything's a mess, but it's just the best mess, isn't it? I think it's hard for me a lot of times to be okay with that. I'm a perfectionist. I like things in order. I have four kids, so everything is always crazy and always messy. But at the end of the day, when I really consider what matters most and what's most important, I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change anything.
Laura Dugger: Yes, I can relate to so much of what you're saying there. Going back a little bit in motherhood, will you just share more of that story, what that looked like, and if it was at all what you expected? [00:02:19]
Kara-Kae James: Yeah. So, my oldest is 10. When I first became a mom to her 10 years ago, it wasn't anything like I expected. She was a challenging baby. She had colic, and she didn't sleep at all. It was just a million things were thrown at me at once.
My husband and I knew we wanted to have a few kids and I just wanted to get it over with. I hated being pregnant. So, we decided, let's just have them really quick and really close together. So we ended up having three in less than three years. So, my oldest was still two when I had my third baby.
My body was just wrecked from that and my mind was wrecked from that. So, I went into a really hard season of postpartum anxiety, depression. It was a huge challenge. I had never struggled with any kind of mental issues, mental health problems. I had never experienced anything like that. [00:03:20]
Before I walked through that season, I probably would have said, like, it's all in your head. You know, I would have thought that about people that struggle with mental health. Now I know very differently and really understand the science behind what goes on in your mind and how that can really, really make a difference in every aspect of your life.
I joke now that I don't remember my third baby's first year of her life because I was so just checked out. I wasn't present at all. It was a struggle to really do anything.
And so, that was a huge challenge because I anticipated motherhood to look a lot like the pictures you see on Instagram, the movies, the things that you see about motherhood that are just perfect. Everything seems to fall into place.
But it wasn't that way at all for me. I didn't feel equipped. I didn't feel like a good mom. There's still so many days that I'm like, I am not a very good mom. [00:04:20] I'm not great with my kids, especially in seasons like this where we're like, do we have to teach our kids at home? I am not equipped for this. I was not prepared to be a homeschool parent, you know, things like that. It's just something that continues to wreck me and bring me to my knees because I feel very unequipped for it.
Laura Dugger: I'm wondering if there's any mom listening who would say that her experience is any different. I have yet to meet someone who feels like they're a natural at this.
Kara-Kae James: Yeah. And we feel like we look at everybody else and we think, well, they haven't figured out, so what am I doing wrong? But it's really not the case.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I appreciate you just being honest and sharing about postpartum anxiety. Was it something that at the time... did you recognize it?
Kara-Kae James: Not at first. I started noticing that I wasn't feeling great, and I thought, "Oh, it's just hormone. My body's just getting back to normal, so hormones are kind of out of whack." [00:05:22] And then I started getting very angry. That was kind of the first sign for me.
This is a story I share a lot, and it's funny. I never shared this story until I wrote my book about my journey through motherhood. I was really upset one day because my 2-year-old daughter at the time she couldn't put her toys away correctly, you know, because she's 2. And I got really angry and upset. And I'm not typically an angry person, but it just all came out.
I took a sippy cup of apple juice, and I just hurled it against the wall. I was so upset over this. Of course, my little toddlers are looking at me like, Our mom has gone crazy. Like, what is wrong with this woman?
I think it was that moment that I realized something's wrong here. I'm not doing okay. And that was the day I told my husband, "I think something's wrong. I think I need to talk to somebody." And I did, and that was very helpful.
But it can be really hard to admit I don't feel like myself. [00:06:22] I struggle with saying that, with saying I'm not doing okay. And I know most women do.
Laura Dugger: Yes, but I'm thinking of maybe the new mom who's listening today. Could you give any examples of what it might look like or when it's a wise time to reach out and tell somebody, I might need a little bit more support here?
Kara-Kae James: Yeah, that's a good question. I would say always find a safe person to talk to, whether... for me, that's my husband. He's the person that I can go to and say anything without judgment. You know, whatever that looks like, if it's a sister, if it's your mom, if it's... maybe it is your doctor. Maybe you feel more comfortable talking to them. But finding that safe place that you can say, okay, something feels off.
But paying really close attention to your body, to your mind. And we don't always do that when we're taking care of other people. So that can become really challenging that we don't want to take the time to worry about us because we have this baby to take care of and we want to focus on that. [00:07:26]
But I think it's so important for us to focus on ourselves, make sure we are as healthy as we can be so we can be more present for them, so we can be fully involved.
Laura Dugger: That's really just a great reminder to check in, how are we doing emotionally, how are we doing physically. But then in your book, you also talk about the spiritual side when you mention how we moms can be easy targets for our enemy to try and bring down. Will you just share your thoughts on that topic?
Kara-Kae James: Yeah. So we're easy to bring down because a lot of times we kind of run the show. I mean, everybody looks to mom for the temperature of the room to see how things are going. So many times the enemy can use that against us. It can bring strife into our families.
If we're having a bad day, most of the time everybody else around us is going to have a bad day because it's very difficult for us to handle our emotions a lot of times, especially if you are a new mom and you're struggling with all these emotions of dealing with new hormones and all the things because that just gets crazy. [00:08:36]
But I think the enemy will think, okay, if I can take her out, then everybody else just falls. So we have to be very on guard to protect ourselves, protect our marriage, to protect our kids.
The enemy just puts these crazy thoughts in our head with guilt and shame trying to tell us that we didn't do enough today, that we weren't enough. We didn't do that certain thing just right. And so we go through all these scenarios in our head of how should I have done that better? I'm a bad mom because I did this thing. Or maybe for a working mom, she deals with a lot of guilt of leaving her kids to go to work or whatever that may look like.
And so the enemy uses those awful messages that get stuck in our head against us. It can really, really hurt us in so many ways.
Laura Dugger: How did you battle that on the days that you were especially just exhausted and weary?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, men. [00:09:36] A lot of it for me was just filling my heart and my mind with scripture. Because even on those days, especially if I couldn't even physically open my Bible, I was so tired, I could listen, though, to the Bible on audio.
Sometimes I would like throw my little ones in the car, go for a drive, drive through and get a coffee or whatever that might look like, and turn on an audio Bible that I could just listen to, take a minute to breathe, turn a movie on for the kids or whatever that looks like just to have that moment.
And a lot of it for me has always been getting out of the circumstance that you're in, just the current situation. So for me, it's like if I was having a really hard day, I was beating myself up a lot, I'm listening to these lies, I just need to hop in the car and go for a drive or maybe just go outside and go for a walk if it's a nice day. Just change your location, mix things up a bit, and not allow the enemy to continue to tell you those things. [00:10:36]
Finding ways to fight back against those thoughts and make that a constant practice. You know, maybe for you, it's putting scripture verses up on your mirror or on your fridge or wherever it is maybe in your house that you struggle.
Maybe you struggle feeling guilt or shame when you walk into the kitchen because you snack in excess. That's something that I struggle with a lot. When I was raising a lot of young kids, I just kind of went to food as an outlet. So instead of feeling that shame, put up scripture verses or whatever that may look like, just to remind yourself that God loves you and He sees you and you aren't forgotten.
Laura Dugger: You also had mentioned that he can start to creep in with guilt. How do you see the enemy using guilt as a lie in our lives?
Kara-Kae James: I think the enemy uses that on moms probably more than anything, especially now that we have such easy access to the internet, to social media, to all these things and images that show us what motherhood is supposed to look like. [00:11:44] I mean, I'm doing air quotes right now. You can't see them, but it's supposed to look this way, you know?
And so we are getting all these messages of all the things we are supposed to do as a mom. And we just can't. We can't measure up. And so the enemy loves to use that to tear us down by putting those messages of guilt in our minds. And we just have to fight against it.
For me personally, just an example, I'm not a homeschool mom. I'm terrible at teaching my kids. When we have been stuck home and they've had to learn from me, it's just not a way that I am gifted. There are moms out there that do such a great job with this. If you do a great job with this, I might just have to send my kids over to you because they need something that I can't give them.
I just had to come to the realization that, Okay, God did not give me that gift of teaching and having the patience to sit with kids. And that's okay. I'm not going to sit and wallow in that and feel guilty about that. [00:12:45]
I even have open conversations with my kids about it. "Hey, I know I am never going to be as good as some of your teachers are. So I'll be patient with you, you be patient with me and we'll work together." And we'll learn some things together because doing like fifth-grade math is impossible for me these days. It just is a little out of my range of giftings.
Figuring out where our giftings are, what God has blessed us with that we can then do with our children, do for our children. So we don't allow that guilt to creep in because when you get to the end of the day and you start feeling guilty, well, I told my daughter I would play that game with her but I didn't because I ended up having an extra meeting for work, just shut that down.
Don't allow that guilt to come in because it can just ruin you, and then the next day it just leaks in and leaks in and you're like, Oh, I still didn't do this thing I said I would do. Or whatever that may look like for you. I found that having those great open conversations with my kids, you know, even when they're little, to say, "Oh, you know, mommy, so sorry. [00:13:51] I did not get a chance to sit and build Lego towers with you or whatever. But we'll get to that. What's something that I can do to make that up to you?" Or, you know, things like that just to show them that you're not perfect.
That's something that's hard for me but I have to show them that I am vulnerable and I want to be authentic with them in that to say, Mom messed up, but I'll do my best. We'll keep making strides and just not allow the guilt to be a part of the narrative.
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Laura Dugger: How did God start to give you a vision for enjoying the available abundance where you were rather than giving into this scarcity mindset?
Kara-Kae James: So abundance was something that... it was one of those words that always felt really unattainable for me because I felt like I had to do so much to measure up. And I began to really look at that word and what that meant in scripture when Jesus said, "I came to give you life and give it to you in abundance." Okay, what does that mean? Do I have to do a certain amount of things?
The great reality of that is He offers that freely to us. It's a gift that He gives us. So we don't have to live in a place of trying to measure up just to get what He's offering. He's giving us a free gift and we would be crazy not to take it. And so when we allow ourselves to step into that and actually accept it, our lives can completely change. [00:16:57]
I will always notice days or weeks that I am getting into that scarcity mindset where I'm trying to take control of my time, I'm trying to pull at all the things and control everything. And I realize, oh, I'm just running. It's like I'm running on this hamster wheel and I'm exhausted and I can't get anything done. And then I take a step back and say, "God, this isn't abundance. This is just me trying to work and do all of the things." And when I step back and say, give me this abundance, then everything changes.
So for me, it looks like I'm more refreshed. I'm more dedicated to my work. I have just a clear mind. I have more joy. There's so many things that come with that.
When you look at the fruits of the spirit, all these things that God gives you, love, joy, peace, you really do feel those things when you're walking in the abundance that he offers. [00:17:55]
Laura Dugger: For you, it sounds like it was a mindset shift. And then were there any other practical things or changes in your schedules or breaks you took?
Kara-Kae James: For sure. Oh, absolutely. Really, the big thing for me was waking up every morning and immediately setting my mind right. Because especially when my kids were little, I would not get a good night's sleep, of course, and then I would be tired. And I would dread waking up in the morning because it was just this like, Oh, here we go again. I have to do this all over again today. I have to wipe everybody's face and rear and do all these dishes and clean up a thousand messes. And I was dreading it.
Once I started really asking God, okay, if you want to show me abundance, what is that going to look like practically? And for me, it was shifting my mindset every morning when I woke up saying, "I get to do this today. This is a gift that I get to get up and do this. I'm privileged that I get to spend this time with my kids." [00:19:00]
Because I had quit my job after my first daughter was born and was able to stay home with them for years. And then now I work from home. But I've always been here. I've always been around. And just realizing what a gift that is. That I'm here when they wake up. I'm here when they go to bed. And I get those little moments with them. So shifting my mind and reminding myself I get to do this, not I have to do this.
Laura Dugger: I'll just read one quick quote from your book where you say, "Living an abundant life isn't something we put on hold until our kids are grown. We are to follow Jesus right here right now. And when we do, we experience abundance."
Kara-Kae James: I think I was convinced that abundant life was something that would come when my kids were older or when they were out of the house. Because that seemed like something that, well, my husband could probably experience that. People without kids could experience it. [00:19:58]
Because when you are just in the middle of the craziness with kids, you don't feel like you have anything special. You're constantly covered in whatever spill is on you. And you're probably wearing three-day-old pants. And you never know what it's going to look like. So realizing that you can have it right in the middle of that is such a joy.
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So another part of your book that we've been talking about called Mom Up, in it, you describe four themes that God has revealed to you in order to thrive in motherhood. [00:21:02] And one of those is rest. So can you share what you've learned about the way to truly experience soul deep rest?
Kara-Kae James: It's interesting because I wrote this book two years ago. It's been a while now. I have learned so much more. And while, yes, that is still so true, I have so much more now that I could share and put a whole other book about rest and what that looks like. Because when I did write it, that was one of the hardest things for me to write about because I knew it in my mind. And I finally have figured out how to put it into practice and it has completely transformed me.
So I love the idea of rest because God sets this example for us. He rested. Jesus set the example for us. He rested. But for me as a mom that was busy running from one thing to the next, I was struggling with rest. And so I kind of saw these two sides to rest. [00:22:01]
The world would tell us, hey, go get a manicure and you will feel refreshed as a mom. Go drive through and get a cup of coffee and that will do it for you, you'll feel refreshed. But then we have this other side looking at the example that God sets for us. Jesus wasn't running into Starbucks. He was getting away by Himself and spending time with His father. So what does that mean for us?
Those indulgences, those things like that that we enjoy, He's given us those. They're not bad things if you're going to get a coffee, if you're going to get a manicure. I'm not saying like you should never do that. I love doing those things. But if that's the only thing we're doing, then we're missing. We're missing a big piece of it.
So this rhythm that I have gotten into over about the last year... my husband and I started talking about taking a Sabbath and we were reading some books on it and studying on rest more. And it just became so clear we are really not doing rest well. [00:23:03] We're not doing it like we thought we should.
We decided as a family we are just going to take a Sabbath one day a week. And so we started doing this practice. Every Saturday is our Sabbath. Our kids know this. My husband and I typically will sleep in on Saturdays and we will get up... We both usually go plop on the couch and read a book and we will go swim or go play outside. Or we'll just lay around and just maybe play a game with the kids.
But it's just a day that we take that we slow down. We don't open our computers. We don't work. We try to put our phones away as much as possible. And it just has created this completely different rhythm for us. Because we were both working seven days a week and it was taking a toll on our kids because, you know, they were getting very weary with, Oh, mom and dad are always working. They're always busy. [00:24:01]
Now we put more work into our week, into the six days. Or typically I work five days down, which seems like just a normal concept that most people should do. But I will work harder in those days, more efficiently, looking forward to and working for my rest because I know it's coming. And all week I'm like, Oh, okay, so today is Wednesday. I have this many days until my rest day. And I'm so excited. And so I'm going to get these things done because I can't wait to just be able to rest and truly take time to turn off my mind that is spinning all the time and be able to sit and enjoy the gifts that God's given me, enjoy some time with Him that is just not rushed, not interrupted. And it has completely changed my view of what rest looks like.
The great thing about this for me as a mom is that I'm modeling this for my kids. [00:25:01] We talk about Sabbath. We talk about what that looks like. I hope that my kids will grow into this being a habit for them and that they will learn how to rest well.
Laura Dugger: That one full day of rest altogether actually re-energizes all of the other days of work.
Kara-Kae James: It does. It is so amazing how just shifting one day of your week completely transforms every other day. It's incredible.
Laura Dugger: And you mentioned that there were some books. What are the ones that you and your husband had gone through?
Kara-Kae James: One of the first ones was Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. My husband's a pastor and so we work in ministry and this was written by a pastor. So a lot of it spoke to us of you're working all the time. He talked about the importance of taking a Sabbath, taking time to rest, especially when you're working in ministry because you can't pour into your people if you are just completely worn out. [00:26:01] So that was very helpful.
I'm reading a book right now that I really am enjoying. It's called Sacred Rhythms. It's great and talks about these kinds of things. I also really liked Rhythms of Renewal by Rebecca Lyons where she talked a lot about this, of just the rhythms that her family got into that helped them.
Because a lot of her story was dealing with some mental health things. And that was the case for me too. I found myself just really struggling with anxiety about a year ago. Again, I had gone through the postpartum anxiety, but then here I was, it was about six or seven years later and it all came back up.
I had been fine for a while and all this anxiety came back up and I just realized I'm not taking time to rest. I'm not allowing my body and my mind to be renewed and I needed that.
Laura Dugger: That book. I would second that one. Rebecca Lyons is a wonderful author. The other one... are you talking about Sacred Rhythms by Ruth Haley Barton? [00:27:01]
Kara-Kae James: That's the one. Yes.
Laura Dugger: I haven't read that yet. So will you tell us a little bit of what you're learning and if you would recommend that too?
Kara-Kae James: Yes, I definitely would. I'm probably halfway through it right now, but she just talks through all these different rhythms, spiritual rhythms and practices of a Sabbath and discernment and prayer, lament and things like that. Like she just goes through some of these practices that are so important for us that I think sometimes we overlook. So, yeah, I have really enjoyed that book.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm appreciating all these resources you're sharing. I'd love to know just in general what other resources and habits or rhythms have benefited you as a Jesus follower.
Kara-Kae James: The rhythm of rest has been huge for me. It's crazy because with us in the season of COVID and everything being so different, I have actually had more of a rhythm than I typically do because I'm not running kids to school. [00:28:01] I'm not running here doing this.
And so I've actually been able to implement more of a morning routine, which has been very healthy for me. I get up, I make my coffee, I sit down with my Bible. And I've just been able to slow down more, which has been such a great practice and rhythm for me.
I'm more of a night owl and early mornings are always a bit of a struggle for me. But as a mom, I wanted my kids to see, Oh, mom gets up early and she reads her Bible every day and she takes her morning slow before she gets into her work.
And because I work from home, they walk by my desk a hundred times a day. So I want them to see that. It's those little things that I want to put those values into my kids, that when they are grown, they look back and remember... what do you remember about your mom? Oh, well, she always got up early. She had a cup of coffee and she read her Bible and then she worked. And sometimes she'd take a break from work and she'd play with me or, you know, whatever that looks like. [00:29:02]
So those kinds of rhythms have been extremely helpful for me and finding good balance and really being able to be more present with my family.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's talk about your profession of speaking and writing for a bit. What did your process look like to publish your first book?
Kara-Kae James: Well, my kids were a lot younger then. So that was interesting. They're a lot more self-sufficient now, but I had a lot of help from... my husband is a huge support system for me. I would just have to sometimes take days that I would get away for the whole day and just go sit and write.
Logistically, when I was writing the book, I had two in elementary school and then I had two in preschool. And so my two younger ones, they would go to preschool only two days a week and they only for five hours. So I had 10 hours every week with no kids and I would write, write, write until my hands were falling off. [00:30:05] My fingers were raw from banging on the keyboard. I would just go as fast as I can and get as much done as I could because I knew I wasn't going to have much time.
And then I would take some Saturdays and things like that to be able to get away and focus. But it's definitely not an easy process with little ones, but well worth it.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love hearing you say that. Why do you think it was well worth it?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, I'm really grateful that I wrote in that season. It was interesting going into that, writing a book for moms when I had young kids. I was kind of worried about what people would think. Will they even read my book? Because I mean, it's not a parenting book. It's a book to encourage moms.
So I'm not ever going to give parenting advice. I don't ever want to give parenting advice. I don't think I'm the person for that, but I think just being able to encourage other moms when I am still in the thick of it is so valuable. [00:31:07]
Because there's something about hearing from somebody who's really in the trenches with you of, "Hey, I'm with you. I hear you. I see you. And I want to uplift you in this place that we are in together" versus someone whose kids are in there... you know, they're grown, they're out of the house, and they've been an empty nester for 10 years and now they're going to write to you about thriving in motherhood.
Sometimes you miss things and not because you always look back on things and remember the best moments. You know it was hard. But there's something about hearing from someone who's next to you rather than someone who's ahead of you. So that was really my goal. And that was to take the time in those hard years and write and learn. And I learned and grew so much through that process of writing.
Laura Dugger: That's so neat. I can just see that cycle where it would energize your mother. So how did you move that forward to get a publisher and gain a following?
Kara-Kae James: I had been blogging. [00:32:09] I started blogging back in college like 15 to 20 years ago. So I've always been a writer. I always wanted to write books and knew that was something that I was passionate about.
I was very blessed because I had an agent reach out to me about four years ago and said, "Hey, I found your platform. Would you ever be interested in writing a book?" And of course, I'm like, "Yes, please. Where do I sign on the dotted line because let's do this."
So I was very grateful for the opportunity because the publishing world is definitely not easy. It's definitely not quick. But I am so grateful to have made the connection with my agent when I did and getting to know people online and building relationships with them.
Because I've always been really passionate about online ministry. I've always said that I'm all about creatively reaching people for Jesus. So I'm always looking for creative ways to share and to teach. [00:33:12] So for me, a lot of that's been social media. Yeah. I'm just grateful for the way that journey has gone.
Laura Dugger: Are there any exciting opportunities that presented themselves since you published your book?
Kara-Kae James: I did go to Focus on the Family and did an interview with them, which was really fun. I've gotten to travel a few times to go do some media interviews like that, which is always great to get to go travel by yourself is one of my favorite things to do. So getting a break for a couple of days and getting away is so much fun.
And just getting to meet some amazing people throughout the journey, whether it's at a conference or, you know, online through podcasting and these types of things.It has been just such a joy.
Laura Dugger: What would you say are the best lessons that you've learned through this journey of speaking and writing and publishing?
Kara-Kae James: I would say learning to be patient, which is not easy because I think we're all about that instant gratification. [00:34:16] We want to write a book. Okay, well we want it now and we want it to happen at our time on our timetable. And that doesn't really happen in the publishing world. Things go so slow.
I was just telling someone today... we were talking about publishing and I said, "Yeah, from the time of signing with my agent to the time my book came out, it was like three and a half years. So those things are a long process, but it makes the work so much better to take the time to put in so much work into it.
And so while in the moment, you know, you're like, "I just want my book on the shelf. I just wanted my work out there." But being patient through the process has really taught me that waiting for the best thing is good because in the end, it's going to be a much better product than you ever imagined that it could be.
Laura Dugger: I think that's a helpful recommendation if there's anyone listening who's an up and coming communicator. [00:35:17] So thanks for sharing that. Is there anything else that you've learned since writing that book that you would add now if you could go back and put more in?
Kara-Kae James: I think what we talked about about rest, I think that that would be the thing. Because that has been a huge lesson that I've learned over the last couple of years is really figuring out what rest looks like for me. And so maybe I'll write about that in a book someday.
Laura Dugger: Yeah. Looking forward to the second one. You mentioned that you've connected with people from all over the world. So how have those friendships come about?
Kara-Kae James: One way that I really love is I'm a part of an organization called Called Creatives. It's basically online training and coaching community for women who are writers and speakers. So it's a great opportunity to connect with other people who are doing the same thing you're doing.
And just finding communities like that. There's tons of places like that that you can connect with people. There's Facebook groups. Just connecting with people online. Sending somebody a DM and saying, Hey, I love your work. Let's chat. [00:36:25] And just making a connection with somebody who's similar to you and doing things that you are really excited about. That's just been something that has been huge for me.
And through that, in the last six months, I started a mastermind group, which is just a group of their six women that we are all kind of in the same stage of our careers. And so we meet every couple of weeks, we talk through ideas, we support each other, we pray for each other. And it's just a huge encouragement to have these women that get it.
Because in my personal life where I live and the ministry that we do at our church, I don't really have anyone that understands what it's like to be a writer, a speaker and those kinds of things. So I think it's really important to find those like-minded women who are doing the work you're doing. So you can not only just pray for each other and be a support system, but be able to talk through hard things and go through ideas with them and bounce things off of them. [00:37:27] Because that is very important too.
Laura Dugger: That is such wise counsel. I really love all of those ideas. With your own podcast, I know your desire is to provide a safe space to engage in tough topics.
Kara-Kae James: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: And so I'd love to hear, what questions are you currently wrestling through?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, so many. Every week on my podcast I pick a different question and talk through it with someone. I learn a lot about the world and what it looks like and what people are struggling with.
Something that's been really eye-opening to me recently is things like immigration and poverty and what people are actually going through and what that looks like and how we as the church can step up and make change and support people and love people the way that Jesus did and really beginning to step into what that looks like. So that has been a huge part of why I'm passionate about that. [00:38:27]
And just really having the... creating the space in your life to ask questions and wrestle through things I think is incredibly important. It deepens your relationship with God. I used to think, "Oh, if I ask questions, it would make me sound like I was a skeptic." That's not the case. It makes you more wise. That is the important thing is that we're chasing after wisdom.
God wants us to ask the questions. He wants us to wrestle because He's always there to answer and to lead us through those things we struggle with.
Laura Dugger: And if somebody else has some similar questions or if they want to go hear some of those episodes on different questions they're having, where would you point them online?
Kara-Kae James: Everything basically that I do is on my website at KaraKaeJames.com. So my podcast is there, books, everything.
Laura Dugger: Okay. We will link to that in our show notes and on our resources tab of our website. Kara-Kae, I just have one final question for you. [00:39:28]
Kara-Kae James: Okay.
Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Kara-Kae James: Oh, lately it has been keto ice cream. Okay. So I started keto back in like January. Doing things like this is very challenging for me. I found an ice cream because I'm a big sugar person, I love sugar, but I've tried to cut out all sugar. And the ice cream is keto-friendly. So I'm so happy. Every day I just go get a few spoonfuls of it and it brings me joy. And I'm so thankful for it.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So what is the name of it?
Kara-Kae James: That's a great question. I found it at Aldi. If you have an Aldi near you... I don't even remember what the brand is, but it just says keto really big on it. It has kind of a weird texture, but if you can get over that, the flavor's good, and I enjoy it. It hits my sweet tooth that I always need. [00:40:31]
Laura Dugger: Yes. Can relate to that for sure. Well, that's so fun. You've shared so many tips and tricks with us today, and I hope people can check out your book Mom Up, but thank you for giving us your time and thanks for being my guest.
Kara-Kae James: Oh, absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:41:31]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. [00:42:33] In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:36]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 12, 2020
Monday Oct 12, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* There is some thematic material and we do not recommend listening in the presence of little ears.
115. From Addiction to Christian Minimalism with Becca Ehrlich
**Transcription Below**
Luke 12:34 (NIV) “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
Becca Ehrlich is an ordained pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and a doctoral student with a focus on Christian Spirituality. Becca strives to be a Christian minimalist in a consumer society. She has gotten rid of 60% of her personal possessions in six months, taken part in a year-long shopping fast, and moved from a 3,000 square foot suburban home to a 1,700 square foot urban home. She is constantly asking herself what matters most, and how simplifying will help her to live the abundant life Jesus has called his followers to live (John 10:10). Becca lives in Philadelphia, PA with her husband Will.
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,600 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at MidwestShelters.com or visit them on Facebook.
Becca Ehrlich is incredibly kind and gracious. We've never met before in person, but I discovered some of her intriguing articles on Christian Minimalism so I reached out to interview her. Her story has grief and triumph woven throughout, and I'm eager for you to listen in.
One thing I love about The Savvy Sauce is how this is a safe space to hear from others whose background or denomination is different from my own, and maybe you differ from both of us. [00:01:19] Regardless, it's my desire we can all agree on the saving power of Jesus Christ and grow a little closer to Him through each conversation. And that's my hope for today.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Becca.
Becca Ehrlich: Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, we're going to just start by going back a little bit into your past. Will you share how you came to know Jesus?
Becca Ehrlich: That's a fun story. I actually grew up in an interfaith household. My dad is Jewish and my mom is Roman Catholic, but we didn't really go to church growing up. When I was in high school, one of my close friends was singing in the contemporary choir at worship and invited me to come along and sing because she knew I enjoyed singing.
So I started doing that, and then I was the one who dragged my mom to church, and then she dragged my brother, so she had someone to sit in the pew with her while I was singing. So it was more of a, "Oh, this is a thing." [00:02:20]
So I basically found Jesus through music. Then I had other friends who were more involved in their faith, and they invited me to their youth group. It was definitely a high school thing where I really started to own my faith and really worked on my relationship with Jesus.
Laura Dugger: That is awesome. So it was kind of a young start, and you introduced others to it along the way. What has your journey looked like since that point of being in high school and being a new believer?
Becca Ehrlich: The thing that I thought God put on my heart was to be the head of youth ministry for a diocese, which is like the regional area for the Catholic Church. And so I pursued a master's degree in theology at a Catholic university, thinking that that was the path I was going to be on, but God had other plans.
I ended up going to seminary and becoming a Lutheran pastor, which is hilarious because if someone had gone back to my high school self and told me that I would be a Lutheran pastor, I would have said they were nuts. But here I am. [00:03:21]
My husband also came to faith late in life. He was not Christian when we met, and I invited him to the Alpha Course, which is kind of an introduction to the Christian faith that comes out of England, actually. And he came to faith, and that was awesome. So I got to be there for his baptism. So it's been definitely an interesting journey for both of us in our faith lives.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And now you two have been married for how long?
Becca Ehrlich: Over eight years.
Laura Dugger: Over eight years. And what has that season looked like? Was that what you expected?
Becca Ehrlich: Ha! No. I mean, no one expects marriage to be all hugs and puppies and rainbows, but we have had our share of ups and downs as far as what life has thrown at us.
Our infant son, Gideon, died at birth in 2014. And then a few months after that, I got really sick, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong with us. We kept going to doctor to doctor to doctor, and no one could figure it out. [00:04:22]
Then I got diagnosed with one thing and had surgery, and then I got diagnosed with something else, and then finally we figured out that I have a chronic illness called mass cell activation syndrome, which is just a fancy way of saying my immune system is overreactive. So I react to things bodily that normal people shouldn't react to. It took years and years until I finally got diagnosed. And so we struggled through that.
Both Will's parents have died since we've gotten married as well. His father just died in April. So I think we've had more than enough of our share of struggles and trials and tribulations, but we know that Jesus is with us through it because Jesus knew suffering as well.
Laura Dugger: Yes, He did. But I think just to honor a few of those experiences, just going back, Will's father passing, that means that happened in the midst of quarantine and COVID. And so I'm assuming that did not look like the grieving process that we typically expect in America. [00:05:28]
Becca Ehrlich: No, not at all. That was the hardest part. He fell down the stairs and was taken to the hospital, and we were not allowed to go see him because of the pandemic. And so that was a struggle. When he started turning towards death, we had to say goodbye to him via phone, which is not what anyone wishes to do.
The worst part was we were trying to get him to hospice, and they wouldn't let him go into hospice until there was a negative COVID-19 test, but they had misplaced the test and it was delayed. And so he actually died before we got the negative test results back. So if he had been in hospice, we would have been able to see him. So that was a real struggle.
We haven't been able to have a funeral service, so we haven't had that religious ritual closure in a way that we wish we had. His dad is actually a big deal in the biology world, and so a lot of his colleagues around the world, and...
He studies spiders, so he has spider groupies. [00:06:28] All of them want to be able to grieve and have closure too, and we're not able to give anyone that in the same way that we would like. A social media post is not the same as having an actual service that we can livestream for people. So we're hoping to do that as soon as it's safe to.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I can't imagine what that feels like for you, because that feels like it sucks the breath away for me just to hear this. And just kind of processing grief upon grief, are you willing to share a little bit more about Gideon?
Becca Ehrlich: Sure, yeah, I can do that. My husband and I decided that we wanted to start trying to have kids, and it happened pretty quickly, and we were really excited about it. I had full pregnancy, no problems really. It was kind of a picture-perfect pregnancy.
Then I was overdue. Typically when that happens is they kind of let you go for a little bit, and then they're like, Okay, if you don't go into labor naturally by this time, we're going to have to induce it. [00:07:36] I didn't want to induce it. I have friends that have been induced and did not have good experiences with that.
So we did all the old wives' tales things to try to get things jump-started. My water broke, and we went to the hospital, and they were very full at the time, and so I wasn't even in the right wing. They just kind of put me in a separate room that they put a monitor in and just kind of left me there until I was farther along.
Suddenly the monitor started freaking out, and it looked like the heart rate of our son was going down low and then kind of going back up and being normal again. There was no one around because they just kind of put me in a room and were like, Eh, when you're farther along, let us know.
So my husband, Will, had to run out into the hallway and kind of yell for a nurse. At first, they thought it was an issue with the heart rate monitor. So they had me turn over and go in different positions, and at the whole time it just felt like they were kind of moving underwater. [00:08:36] Like everything felt really slow and I was like, "Okay, if my baby's in trouble, we've got to do something now."
Finally, they were like, "Oh, we don't think it's the monitor. We're going to have to go do an emergency C-section, and we don't even have time to just... we're going to have to put you under. Like we don't have time to deal with it the way we normally would." That was really scary.
And so I kissed my husband and went to the OR. The next thing I remember I woke up — my parents had come down — and I saw my mom and I said, "Is the baby okay?" And she shook her head no. For me, it wasn't... I mean it was clearly traumatic. But, I mean, my husband watched as they pulled out our child and tried to resuscitate him, and he never took a breath.
No one knows to this day what happened. It could be related to my chronic illness. People who have my disorder tend to have a more frequent level of stillbirth or miscarriage. But we don't know. No one knows what happened. [00:09:37]
So, yeah, that's how we lost our son. It was rough. We had a full nursery set up to bring the baby back to, and we had no baby to bring to the nursery. So that was really hard.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Becca, I'm completely speechless. I did not know any part of this story. How did you and Will start to take those first steps of grieving this and processing this shocking loss?
Becca Ehrlich: It was really hard. I think what was really helpful in a lot of ways was that my family was there, and then I had other family members and friends that came in, and we had a funeral service the next week. Which, by the way, if you just were a week out from having a C-section, walking into a funeral for your baby is even harder because you can barely stand up because C-sections are rough.
But having people surround us with love. I mean, we were getting cards and emails and messages from people we've never met before. [00:10:40] Just people heard what had happened and either had experience with miscarriage or stillbirth and were there to support us. And so I think that was really what helped us the most. Also, Jesus. I don't know what we would have done if we didn't have our faith, for sure.
The one thing I will say is that when we were very open about what happened to us, we blogged about it, we posted on social media, and people were coming out of the woodwork who we'd known for years and saying, Yeah, I had a miscarriage, or yeah, I had a stillbirth, or yeah, I've been trying to get pregnant for years and it hasn't happened.
And these are people we've known that just had never talked about it. So I think a lot of times those types of things, things relating around pregnancy and child loss, we're trained not to talk about. I think we've learned to model being open and honest about the loss of our son.
Like when people ask me if I have any kids, which is a pretty standard thing people ask you, right, when you're in your 20s or 30s, I never say no, because I feel like that would be doing a disservice to my son's memory, but also training people to be okay with having these conversations. [00:11:56]
So if someone asks me if I have children, I say, yes, but not alive. And then usually they're like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." I'm like, "No, don't be sorry. It's part of my story. It's okay." And then that usually opens up a conversation about child loss in a way that wouldn't necessarily happen before.
Laura Dugger: Wow. You have been gifted with so many of these gifts of communication, and it sounds like transparency and authenticity, and joy. It's just unexpected to hear the joy coming out when you hear more of that story. So thank you for courageously sharing that and teaching us how to talk about this more openly.
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, thank you. And I think people are always like, "I don't know how you get through it, how you're so joyful." And I'm like, "Well, joy is not contingent on what's happening to us. It's a deeper thing. And I only have joy because of Jesus. I wouldn't have joy if it wasn't for Jesus." [00:12:55]
I mean, there's so many things in life to be joyful for, and I still grieve my son periodically. You know, grief is not a one-time thing. It's a process. And so it's a both-and.
Laura Dugger: That is beautifully said. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: So Becca, how did your journey lead you to eventually learn about Christian Minimalism?
Becca Ehrlich: Actually, my chronic illness is the reason I found out about Christian Minimalism. I was having a bad health day and I was sitting on my couch not feeling good. I was sort of just paging around on Netflix. And you know how Netflix says things you might like and makes suggestions for you.
I watched a decent amount of documentaries. And one of the documentaries that popped up that day was the Minimalism documentary by The Minimalists. And I was like, "I don't know what this is, but it's an hour and 15 minutes. So we'll give it a shot." And it changed my life. [00:14:57]
Like no one thinks that they're going to be going around on Netflix one day and having their life changed. I know I didn't, but I heard God speaking to me through it, basically. And I knew that this was something that God was calling me to.
My husband got home and I was like, "Will, Will, you've got to watch this." And he was really not excited at all. Because he was like, "Oh, it means we're going to have to change things, aren't we?" I was like, "Yes, yes, it does." But he watched it too, and we both came to the same conclusion that God was calling us to live a more minimalist life.
And because of my chronic illness, I kind of filled that void with online shopping. I had become addicted to online shopping in the years before that and so I had really bad habits around using my God-given resources. And I knew that needed to change, but I didn't know how. This sort of jump-started that for me.
And so not only did we start living a more minimalist lifestyle, but I also did a year-long shopping fast in 2018. [00:15:56] I spent a whole year of not buying things unless it was on an approved list, like food and medication and toiletries.
Laura Dugger: Yes. And how did you identify that you did have a shopping addiction?
Becca Ehrlich: It's funny because you think addiction and you think substance abuse. Of course, that's a huge part of what addiction is for a lot of people. And so I don't use that word lightly. But we don't talk about shopping addictions much, especially online shopping addictions, because you get a rush when you click to buy. You get a rush when you get it in the mail. And then a few days later, that rush is gone and you have to go find it again. And so it's the same cycle for all types of addiction.
Laura Dugger: So if somebody maybe is listening today and they weren't even aware, but now they're kind of feeling this pricking that maybe this is a struggle they have too, do you have any advice for how they might identify if this is an addiction? [00:16:57]
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. Well, one of the things is if you keep feeling like it's something you need to do. That was for me like I knew I shouldn't have kept doing it, but I felt like I had to because I had those addiction qualities to it.
If you think you are dealing with a shopping addiction or online shopping addiction, I would suggest doing a shopping fast of some sort to try to at least jumpstart you realizing that that's not something you need to keep doing. You don't have to do a full year. That's kind of extreme. I just did it because I decided I wanted to. But a few months of a shopping fast.
And have accountability. That was the big thing for me. Honestly, that's how I started my blog was public accountability so that I didn't fall back onto the bad habits that I had been doing before.
You don't have to start a blog to do that. You can just have a spouse or a friend or another loved one be your accountability partner. But find ways to make sure that that's not happening.
Delete all those emails you get from stores. [00:17:58] Oh, my gosh. I must have deleted like 100 and unsubscribed to 100 different lists. It was crazy.
And don't go browsing on on websites either. That was a thing for me. "Oh, I'm just window shopping." Okay, well, maybe you won't be later. So finding ways to break those habits is really important.
Laura Dugger: Because for you, with your experience, was it meeting or at least appearing to meet certain emotional needs? Or what do you think was the driving force?
Becca Ehrlich: For me, I think it was... having a chronic illness is rough, especially when it was undiagnosed. At the time, we really had no idea what was wrong with me. And so I felt kind of hopeless about it. So I got that rush of dopamine every time I went and hit that button to buy. And then when I got it in the mail... and it wasn't ever things I really needed. It was just stuff that I thought I liked. [00:18:58] Then that wears off after a while and then you have to go find the next thing.
So for me, I guess it was a literal biological need in some fashion because I was not feeling great and I was trying to make myself feel better.
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. And I wonder, especially coming through this COVID season, if a lot of people are resonating that that was still something that was available and maybe experiencing more sadness than usual or isolation or loneliness.
Becca Ehrlich: Oh, for sure. I'll bet a lot of people kind of got into habits of online shopping during this. It's easy to do
Laura Dugger: So I appreciate you sharing that story because it sounds like God then started using minimalism to call you into even a deeper level of intimacy with Himself. So could you define minimalism and then share how your identity as a Christ follower differentiates it from mainstream minimalism? [00:19:57]
Becca Ehrlich: Sure. It's so funny to hear you say mainstream minimalism because like minimalism itself is not mainstream yet. Although I'd love to see it that way. But I think you're right. I think there's a general minimalism and then like niche minimalism.
So for me, I usually define minimalism as a focus on the aspects of life that matter most and intentionally removing everything else. So it's not the decluttering movement, really, although that's kind of part of it.
Decluttering is usually focused on material objects and stuff and just getting rid of it. But this actually gets to the core of how and why. It's about a whole lifestyle of focusing on the most important things and living intentionally.
Christian minimalism is a Jesus-centered or Jesus-oriented version of minimalism. So it starts with Jesus at the center and then the rest of the aspects of life that matter most fall around that. So if you're thinking of like concentric circles, like Jesus is at the center. Then what's most important is kind of around that as a circle and you use Jesus as a starting point. [00:21:00]
For me, Christian minimalism is very biblically based. Sixteen of the 38 parables Jesus told are about money and possessions. And in the Gospels, one out of every ten verses has to do with money. So it's clearly stuff that matters. Obviously, Christian minimalism is more than just stuff and money. But if you even just start in that little part of minimalism, it's a huge deal in the Bible.
Laura Dugger: And so if you are using that example of the concentric circles, could you give us examples of what that looks like in your life and what some of those focuses are for parts of life that matter most to you and Will?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. I'm so glad you asked that. One of the things I've done over time as I've written about this and talked about this and thought a lot about it and prayed a lot about it is kind of figuring out what are those aspects of life that matter most for Christian minimalists. And I came up with six.
For me, and I think these are across the board, culturally, geographically, and the six are fellowship, self-care, stewardship, spiritual growth, vocation, and service. [00:22:06] So those are things that matter most for everyone, pretty much, right?
Like relationships, fellowship, that's something that we all know matters. Self-care: taking care of ourselves. Stewardship: using God's resources wisely. Spiritual growth: continuing our relationship with God and cultivating that. Vocation: doing what God is calling us to do. And service: you know, serving others.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I just want to pause there. You said it was through a lot of prayer and reading and reflection. Are there any specific parts of Scripture that really stand out for how you came to those six?
Becca Ehrlich: Definitely the one that I've been most focusing on lately is John 10:10. Jesus said that He came that we could have life and have it abundantly. Abundance is an interesting word. Because what we think of as abundance in society is not what Jesus thinks of as abundance. [00:23:06]
Society believes that we should get more stuff and have bigger houses and better cars and keep amassing wealth and become famous and successful and all these things. But Jesus' view of abundance is, you know, spiritual abundance and abundance with those around us and serving others in Jesus's name. It's not about those things at all.
Laura Dugger: What are some of the surprising ways that Jesus has led you into an abundant life through the means or the vehicle of minimalism?
Becca Ehrlich: The crazy part is that in the time I used to surf the internet looking for internet buys, back when I was really, really addicted... I'm still an addict, right? You're always an addict. But when I was really in the throes of that addiction, I was doing those things that I knew I wasn't called to.
I was spending my time and energy and resources on things that God wasn't calling me to use them on. [00:24:09] And now I feel like that's much more in alignment with how God is calling me to use my resources. In the time I spent doing the online shopping stuff, I'm actually getting my doctoral degree, which is nuts.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is such a different trade-off than what that leads to in the end with that investment of time shopping versus the investment of time studying and earning your degree.
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. I was spending my time and energy and resources on these things that didn't matter. And now I'm actually going to get my doctorate. It's not comparable. It's obviously one is more valuable than the other and one God is calling me to and the other one God wasn't. So minimalism has really changed my life and helped me to align myself more with what God wants for me.
Laura Dugger: Okay, so let's bring it down then to more of a practical level. Are there any steps that we can take toward embracing more of the abundant life today through minimalism? [00:25:13]
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. This is the one question that I tell Christian minimalists to ask themselves constantly. Is this possession, time commitment, or activity adding value to my life and the lives of others in Jesus's name?
Laura Dugger: That is such a good question. Do you have any other filters that you recommend running it through or any other resources that can help us further understand some of these concepts?
Becca Ehrlich: One of the big things, at least I found in churchy people, is that we're really bad at saying no. We're really good at saying yes to things. But unfortunately, when we say yes to all the things, we're not being intentional about how we're using our spiritual gifts that are given to us by God and helping match what matters most to us and using our time and resources, and energy on those things. And that leads to burnout usually.
So learning to say no to things that don't align with what matters most to you and where your spiritual gifts lie and saying yes to those things that only align with what's most important and your spiritual gifts. [00:26:16]
Laura Dugger: Hey there, have you taken any specific action after listening to any of these episodes? Did you purchase a resource that set you on a better path in your life or try out any of the suggestions for your relationships that our guests have recommended?
If so, we want to see and hear about it. Please tag us on Instagram or Facebook so we can see your practical application. It's so encouraging to be in this together. You can find us on social media @TheSavvySauce.
Lauren, our social media lead, pours a ton of work into creating and managing that platform. And we look forward to continuing the conversation with you there.
If someone doesn't yet know what their spiritual gift is, how do you recommend they begin to learn that and then hopefully use that gift for others in God's glory?
Becca Ehrlich: I'm so glad you asked that. There are so many spiritual gifts assessments out there online and otherwise. [00:27:18] So if your church is part of a certain denomination, I encourage you to go to your denominational website and look to see if there's a spiritual gifts assessment through your denomination.
If your church isn't in a denomination, that's cool, too. Just search spiritual gifts assessment online and you'll come up with, I'm sure, a billion. But each spiritual gifts assessment is kind of its own thing. It tests for different spiritual gifts depending on who the author is and how they're interpreting the Bible.
The one that I encourage people to use if you're really into it and really don't mind spending time getting into this, is Christian Schwartz's Three Colors of Ministry. It's part of the Natural Church Development books. It tests for 30 different spiritual gifts. It's 180 questions and it has a normalization chart and two polls that you give to other people as well. It's pretty intense, but it's super cool. And it's the most in-depth one I've found.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Yes, it's great to have a place to get started if somebody wants to study further. [00:28:21] Could you just give a really general overview and mention a few of the gifts and what that might look like to use them?
Becca Ehrlich: Sure. One of the gifts that gets overlooked a lot is the gift of administration, which sounds super boring. But we need people who are able to organize things and categorize things and make lists and make sure that things get done. Because if you're not one of those people that has that gift, you appreciate those people for sure. So that's a gift that I possess and that I used to kind of downplay, but now I'm realizing that it's actually pretty valuable.
Some other gifts that people would have is the gift of service. Everyone is called to serve God, of course, but people of the gift of service specifically have the gift of doing those behind-the-scenes things that really need to get done that people sometimes don't notice. You'll know if you have that spiritual gift if you do something and things run more smoothly because of it, but no one noticed. [00:29:22] Like stacking chairs after a church event.
So one of the reasons I really love the spiritual gifts assessment with Three Colors of Ministry is because they test for some spiritual gifts that some flavors of Christianity don't talk about as much. Some people say the supernatural gifts, but they're all supernatural because they come from God.
The gift of prophecy, for example, which sounds scary, but it's really not. It just means that if you have the gift of prophecy, you hear a message from God that's supposed to be for somebody and you relay that message to that person. So that's a cool gift. A lot more people have that gift than I think give themselves credit for.
Usually, you'll know if you have that gift if you're praying and you get a sense of something for someone. It can be a word or a phrase or a picture or a feeling, and you convey that to that person and they're like, Oh my gosh, that's exactly what I needed to hear today. That's usually what the gift of prophecy kind of feels like. [00:30:21]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So as we're talking about prophecy, I've been studying in 1 Corinthians recently, and the Amplified version kind of unpacks more than what we just think of originally when we hear prophecy. We might just think of foretelling the future. But it also describes it as speaking a new message from God to the people.
So I love that example of what you gave. I even wonder — this is just my speculation — that it may not always be a one-to-one communication, but maybe it is something that you feel led from the Lord and you've shared on your blog before, and it reaches people because the Holy Spirit can work in whatever way the Spirit wants to move.
Becca Ehrlich: Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Prophecy is not limited to just one-to-one, for sure. It can be online, it can be in groups of people, all that stuff.
Laura Dugger: That's so encouraging. And I think just to wrap that idea up, what I'm learning currently is to eagerly desire the gift of prophecy so that it leads us into a more excellent way, which is the way of love. Because that's the part that never fades away, even when prophecies cease to exist. [00:31:35]
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, amen to that.
Laura Dugger: Becca, how can minimalism give us the gift of time?
Becca Ehrlich: That's one of the things I love talking about, because most people find out when they start living more minimally and they start intentionally getting rid of those things in their lives that aren't helping align them with what God is calling them to do and what matters most. You have a lot more time, and then you get to decide how to use that time, which is kind of cool, right?
And so I've found that I have a lot more time for prayer and for Bible study and just having that time with God than I did before. I have more time for my husband and my loved ones and my friends. I have more time to do studying.
Like I said before, I'm doing a doctoral degree in the time I used to spend shopping online. So I have a lot more time for those things that matter most rather than, I don't know, just sitting mindlessly in front of the TV for hours. [00:32:36] Sitting mindless for a little bit is good if you need to chill, but maybe not all night. And learning to cut myself off sometimes because it's easy to fall down the rabbit hole, especially if you're doing YouTube or Netflix or something.
Finding ways to be like, Okay, now I'm going to go do this thing that is for my spiritual growth, or I'm going to go spend some quality time with my family. It's all about intentionality and living intentionally.
Laura Dugger: We are all about that, about having these practical chats for intentional living. And so it sounds like it looked like for you taking away excessive hours in front of screens. Was it also a process of taking away certain possessions or a part of that decluttering your household?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah. So that was part of it for me too. A lot of times minimalists start with the stuff because it's an easy thing to start with because it's obvious you have a lot of it and you need to cull it down. And so we kind of started with that. We had so much stuff. It was crazy. [00:33:41]
At the time, we lived in a 1,200-square-foot apartment and there was just stuff shoved in every spot that there could be stuff. And we rented a storage unit outside of town that was, they say, high and tight. So we couldn't even find stuff in there even if we wanted because it was literally floor to ceiling, end to end, shoved with stuff.
And that was because we had moved there from a 3,000-square-foot house. You know, when you have that big a house, you fill it with stuff because that's what's expected. And so, oh my gosh, we had so much stuff.
So we got rid of 60% of our stuff in six months. It was crazy. We donated probably 95% of it and then threw out those things that weren't in a condition to donate.
Laura Dugger: At the end of that six months, what was the feeling like to be rid of all of those earthly possessions?
Becca Ehrlich: Well, first of all, I mean, we were just thrilled to get the time back because I think... I mean, even before we started the minimizing process, I don't think we realize in society how much time we spend taking care of our stuff. [00:34:50] When you buy something, it's not just the cost of the thing, but it's the time and energy you spend taking care of it. And we spend a lot of time doing that.
So we didn't have to do that as much. And we just felt so much lighter and we had so much more time and we weren't constricted on where we could live next because we had so much stuff. Like, where are we gonna put all this stuff? We didn't have to have that conversation anymore because we had so much less than what we had before.
Laura Dugger: And as it relates to Christian minimalism, who are some of your heroes and what have they taught you?
Becca Ehrlich: I truly believe Jesus is a minimalist. When he was on earth, he lived a simple life. He encouraged disciples to live simply as well. He taught against greed and accumulating possessions at the detriment to one's relationship with God. He focused on what was most important. He encourages his followers to do the same. Jesus also reminds us that God is our provider and we don't have to worry and stockpile stuff. [00:35:50]
So for Jesus followers, it makes sense to live a more minimal life because that's really how Jesus lived. I can't top Jesus with any of my other heroes, but I will list the others.
Obviously the minimalists, they're Ryan Nicodemus and Joshua Fields Milburn. They're the reason I discovered minimalism. They blog, they wrote a few books. They made that documentary. They're kind of the face of mainstream minimalism, if you will.
Joshua Backer, who is also a blogger and writer in the minimalism world, he's actually a Christian pastor. And so he will sometimes bring Bible texts into his writing. But he's also very clear that he's not writing for Christians. He's writing from a more broad perspective, but it's kind of cool that he uses Bible references.
Courtney Carver, who is also in the minimalism space and has written books and has a blog. She's famous for her Project 333, where she wore 33 items of clothing for three months. [00:36:53] And so she encourages people to use less clothing in their lives.
The cool part about all three of these groups of folks is that they were all bloggers turned authors. So I knew that that was a thing that could happen. All of them have influenced the way I think about minimalism from a faith perspective and I was encouraged to start that because of them.
Laura Dugger: And then following in their footsteps, you are also a blogger turned author.
Becca Ehrlich: I am. Yeah, it's so crazy to say that.
Laura Dugger: Because at the time of this recording, your book has not been released yet, but you are in the midst of writing your first book. Is that right?
Becca Ehrlich: Yes. The book is called Christian Minimalism: Simple Steps for Abundant Living. It's being published by Church Publishing and it should be released May 2021.
Laura Dugger: Can't wait for that. So excited for you. [00:37:52] Speaking of your blog, though, one of your most popular posts of all time was titled Why Marie Kondo Didn't Work for Me.
Becca Ehrlich: Ah, yes, the Marie Kondo post.
Laura Dugger: So will you just tell us more about your thought process behind this article?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, so it's funny. I kind of discovered Marie Kondo before she blew up here in America. A friend had given me her book, The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up. And I was like, "Oh, this is kind of cool."
I tried her method. I got rid of a whole bunch of stuff, but it didn't stick for me. Like I just kept going back to buying stuff. That was sort of like my first brush with decluttering and minimalism and that sort of thing.
And once I started writing about Christian minimalism, I was like, I wonder why that didn't stick. What about that wasn't working for me? And it wasn't until the Netflix show came out that Marie Kondo did that really visually highlighted for me what I felt like didn't necessarily work well in her method. [00:38:57] So I decided to write about it from a Christian faith perspective. And it went semi-viral, which I was not expecting.
And there's some really great things about Marie Kondo, right? Like she shows people that we need to simplify our possessions. And she shows that decluttering and simplifying is work, but it's worth it. Some of her storage methods are so great. Oh my gosh, her folding method for shirts changed my life. And also she's a young woman who's passionate about her work and an expert in her field, which is great. But there's a few things that didn't really work for me.
And I think why it went semi-viral was the first thing I said, which ended up being way more controversial than I thought. And I pointed out in the post that the basis of the KonMari method is in the Shinto religion. Basically what that means is she comes at the decluttering process as someone of the Shinto faith. Basically all I said was if you're a Christian and you're doing her method, you just have to be aware of that and figure out what parts of it work for your Christian faith and what don't because Shintoism is not Christianity. [00:40:02] And that ended up being a whole lot more controversial than I expected.
Laura Dugger: What is some of the pushback that you've received?
Becca Ehrlich: It was really interesting because... I don't know. I do interfaith work all the time. I grew up in an interfaith household. So, for me, it wasn't a big deal to be like, "Hey, just be aware that this thing is based in another religion and just figure out what that means for you as you do it.
A lot of people were upset because they felt like I was saying bad things about the Shinto religion or saying that... I don't know. People felt like I was being judgmental, I think, which was totally not what I was going for and not what I actually said. So it's always interesting what people read... read into what you write, right?
But I don't know. It was way more controversial than I thought it was going to be. Because I thought just saying it was based in the Shinto religion, which was fact, and saying that, okay, if you're a Christian doing this, you need to kind of figure out what that means, wasn't that big a deal. [00:41:05] I don't know.
Laura Dugger: Yeah. I feel like the way that I take that is that you're saying sift through to see which parts are true. Is that right?
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, exactly. The other things that I said about the KonMari Method, which, of course, people didn't focus quite as much on, was that it inadvertently encourages an emotional attachment to stuff because, you know, her catchphrase is, you hold something and say, does this spark joy?
And so because she's coming from her faith tradition, her Shinto faith, for her, that's a spiritual moment. But in American culture, that's not a religious thing for us. And so it's actually inadvertently teaching us to connect things to emotion.
For me, a lot of times getting rid of the things that don't matter has been shedding that attachment with emotion. Because I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, this book, this book was... I had this book when I was going through this thing in my life. And I'm like, "That's dumb. Like the memory is not in the book. I don't need to keep this book to keep that memory alive." But we all do it. [00:42:08] We all do it.
So I found that the KonMari Method wasn't serving me well because I was trying to get rid of my emotional attachment to stuff, not encourage it.
Then the other thing was that the KonMari Method is a one-and-done process. In her show, she actually says like, you've graduated the KonMari Method. And I'm like, well, that's lovely, but it's not done. Now you have to figure out what your life is going to look like now that you have less stuff.
And that's why I like Christian minimalism, because it's a more all-encompassing way of living. It's a whole lifestyle. It's not just about getting rid of stuff and you're done. It's a gradual but constant process of figuring out what adds value to your life and what matters most and how to keep Jesus at the center, because that's going to look different depending on where you are in your life.
A bachelor is going to probably live as a Christian minimalist differently than someone who's married and has three kids. Right?
Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, I appreciated that post so much. [00:43:09] I had just never heard all of that background behind it. And I know that my experience was, about five years ago, I came across that book and really appreciated it. And it did lead me to get rid of lots of our stuff. Yet there was something deeper.
When I read it, I started praying for Marie Kondo to know Jesus. The scripture that I came across and thought of her was from 2 Timothy 2:20 and 21, where it says, "In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the master, and prepared to do any good work."
I think what you're saying, like contrasting the two, that's been more of my experience with going to the Lord for these ideas and maybe kind of related to Christian minimalism. [00:44:15] But that's one of my end goals is to be useful to Him and prepared to do any good work that He calls me to. So I appreciate your writings, making it more practical and accessible to us in the Christian faith, how we can implement that.
Becca Ehrlich: Yeah, thank you. And I think in a lot of ways, some of the things that I do and what Marie Kondo does are similar because our faith is what drives what we do. And so I think that's pretty cool.
Laura Dugger: Well, I always enjoy hearing people discuss thoughtful ways they are choosing to live counter-culturally. So how do you experience God calling you to a counter-cultural lifestyle of Christian minimalism?
Becca Ehrlich: Just being a Jesus follower in today's world means sometimes being counter-cultural. So that alone. And then Christian minimalism in a lot of ways amplifies that because we live in our consumer culture.
For example, society tells us more is better and Christian minimalists aim to live with less, intentionally consume and focus on what's most important. [00:45:19]
Society tells us we are what we do for our job, but Christian minimalists strive to focus on what God is calling us to do our vocation, rather than basing our identity on our job title or how we make a living.
Being busy is a badge of honor in our society. Resting is just wasted time. For Christian minimalists, intentionally spending Sabbath time and rest and renewal with our loved ones and with God is really important.
And being famous, having power and receiving worldly accolades are things that we're taught to strive for in our consumer society. But Christian minimalists know that fame, power, and worldly praise aren't our goals. We're called to serve rather than be served as Jesus did.
Laura Dugger: You sum that up so well. As you look back, Becca, what has been added to your life as you intentionally chose to subtract the stuff?
Becca Ehrlich: I'm more intentional about how I value material possessions, my money, my time, and my spiritual gifts and how I use them. I'm much more aware of how I use those things. [00:46:20] And I have more time, resources, and energy for what's most important: My spiritual growth, my calling from God, my family, my friends, my self-care. And I'm able to be more generous with my time, energy, and resources.
Laura Dugger: I love that, that it can lead to generosity. We've alluded to this earlier, but what can we expect from your upcoming book that's scheduled to be released in 2021?
Becca Ehrlich: So as the basis for the book is the abundant life that Jesus came for that we hear about in John 10:10 is not the abundant life our consumer society tells us that we should strive for. So it's a more in-depth look at how we can live the abundant life Jesus wants for us with practical tools for focusing on the aspects of life that matter most that we mentioned before: fellowship, self-care, stewardship, spiritual growth, vocation, and service.
There's going to be a read-and-reflect section to use by yourself or with a group of friends or a small group or Bible studies at church. So I'm really excited about it. [00:47:21] I think it's going to be really fun. I can't believe I get to write the book on Christian minimalism, which is pretty cool.
Laura Dugger: That is incredible. I'm just cheering you on in this process. But for now, before the book is released, where can listeners read more about your thoughts online?
Becca Ehrlich: So my blog is Christianminimalism.com. Usually, I try to write about stuff that people can relate to and really put into practice in their own life. So it's not just like a, Oh, that was nice, and then you go about your life. But it's really geared towards thinking about ways that you can live intentionally and, you know, remove those things that aren't helping you focus on God and what matters most.
Laura Dugger: We will definitely add a link to that, both in our show notes and on our Resources tab of our website, TheSavvySauce.com, so it's easily accessible.
We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Becca, what is your savvy sauce? [00:48:28]
Becca Ehrlich: So when I go to speak on Christian minimalism at congregations and at events, and I ask people first what they think matters most, the first answer I always get is relationships because we all know instinctively that our relationships with each other are one of the things that's most important in our lives.
And so my savvy sauce is to make it a point to connect with a loved one once a day. That could look like a text or an email or a phone call or a video chat. Just connecting with someone you love once a day.
Laura Dugger: I love it. What an awesome savvy sauce to end on. Becca, you are delightful to spend time with. I'm so excited about your writing and this upcoming project. And I appreciate all that you've shared with us today. You've given us so much to think about. So thank you for being my guest.
Becca Ehrlich: Thank you for inviting me. This was so much fun.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. [00:49:29] And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:50:28]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:51:29]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:52:28]
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 05, 2020
Monday Oct 05, 2020
114. Living Intentionality with Shunta Grant
**Transcription Below**
John 15: 10+11 (ESV) “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.”
In a world telling women to “do it all,” Shunta Grant teaches women to joyfully decline a life filled with the overwhelm, tension and discontentment brought on by a constant state of busy-ness. Shunta helps women live life (and build businesses) on the OTHER side of busy. Shunta is the creator of the Best Today™ Brand which equips women with resources to be proactive and intentional with their time. Her signature product, the Best Today™ Guide, helps women get clear on what they want and provides a simple three-step process to guide women toward their vision for the future one today at a time. Shunta also teaches business owners and leaders through her coaching program, Peace Pace Progress. To learn more about Shunta and how she can help you on your journey visit shuntagrant.com/meetshunta.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Buisiness, Life, and Joy Podcast with Shunta Grant
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.
Shunta Grant is our guest today, and I expect you to end this chat feeling empowered to step into something more significant than yourself through choosing a life of intentionality, which begins by abiding in Christ.
Shunta is going to break down and get really practical in ways to do this.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Shunta.
Shunta Grant: Thank you so much for having me. I am so thrilled to chat with you. [00:01:18]
Laura Dugger: Well, would you just mind first sharing a sliver of your story with us?
Shunta Grant: Absolutely. So I'm Shunta. I am, among many things, a mom, a wife, a business owner. I started out my adult career as a business litigator, an attorney in private practice, and shifted from that into entrepreneurship in 2015.
I started with one company because of Zoe Designs, which was named after and inspired by my daughter. And over time, just that slowly shifted and opened so many other doors for me. It has led me to be able to work with business owners, train corporate teams, and now doing work that I truly believe I have been gifted to do.
My heart has always been, always, as long as I can remember, for women and girls. So this March, I launched a new company, Best Today Brand, where our mission is to equip women with resources to be proactive and intentional with their time so they can show up as their best one today at a time. [00:02:18]
And that work... just thinking about it right now, I have a smile on my face. And that is what I spend a lot of my time doing right now for work, is growing the Best Today Brand and just really on a mission to help women to be proactive and intentional with their time.
Laura Dugger: And you are gifted like no other in this area. It's been incredible to sit under your teaching. I know that you and I do share a faith in Jesus. And so do you remember about what age you were when that became real for you?
Shunta Grant: I knew about Jesus as a young child. I believed everything that I was taught. I had no reason not to. And then as I just grew and watched my mom, particularly in the early years of my life, and started really believing and hearing it for myself, it was more than just knowing what I'd heard. It was like, Oh, this is something I can have a relationship with Jesus Christ even as a child. And that just grew all of my life.
I think in college in particular, that was my first time being away from home. [00:03:19] I was in Georgia my entire life, and I went to college in South Carolina. That was an opportunity that I had to create whatever identity I wanted. I didn't know anybody there.
I remember one of the first things I wanted to do was to find a church home, to find a place to plug into. And that led to deepening my relationship in a way that it's just who I am. It's not even like, Oh, this is a thing I do or a thing I believe. It's who I am.
I always say He is the picture and I am the frame. That's just how I live my life. You can't separate Shunta and Jesus. This was something that was personal. My mom introduced me to Christ, but at the end of the day, the relationship was dependent on me.
Laura Dugger: I wonder how does that faith fuel some of your work as you inspire others to live their best day today?
Shunta Grant: Oh, it's everything. I have such a strong feeling about it. I could get emotional about it, just thinking about it. First of all, that this is like work that I get to do. [00:04:20] I actually, just right before this, got off a call ending our month-long workshop and listening to women talk about the journey we've taken over the last month and hearing them just talk about how for the first time in their life they've been consistent or they've added routine or how it's affecting their daughters who are watching them make choices. And their daughters are now saying, Mom, I want to learn more about routine.
I listened to that and I'm like, Lord, this is you. Because I thought I had a plan for my life. I thought I was going to be a lawyer and then maybe a judge. And that was that. And I thought that was using, quote-unquote, my gifts, my talents. But I see that this is who He created me to be.
This love and this passion, desire to see women win and support one another and just show up as their best, it's so embedded in who I am that I know I am using my gifts that he has given me. I'm using the way in which He made me, my personality, exactly as I am and perfectly to help other women.
I can't think that that has anything to do with me because I had a completely different plan for my life. [00:05:22] And this one, as is when you allow the Lord to be the one in control, this one is way better than I could have imagined.
Laura Dugger: And so even from a young age, were you always intentional in your approach to life or was that a learned process over time?
Shunta Grant: Yes. My mom tells me about it all the time. I was the young child, even in elementary school, who when we went out in the car on rides, I made a checklist like this is what we're doing. This is what we're bringing on the trip. I played our family plays that we did every year at holiday break. I have just been intentional when I didn't know that that's what the word... you know, that's what it was. You can look back... It's so interesting. I try to keep that in mind now with my own children, like watching who they really are.
My mom tells me so many stories about how I have just always said, "This is what I'm going to do." And if Shunta says she's going to do something, she is going to do it. So I've just been a person who really believed in myself and my abilities, thanks to my mom, who always told me, you know, you can do anything. [00:06:22]
But also, I think I've just been a person who's liked lists, who likes order, and who likes some semblance of predictability. And I think that kind of played out in what I chose for a career and somehow still ended me here. But I think I've always been a list maker and a person who's tried to be really intentional and make a plan about the things that I do.
Laura Dugger: So what are some of your most intentional practices?
Shunta Grant: I'm a routine person. So, you know, every morning I do almost the exact same thing. I get up and the first thing I take care of is what's most important to me. And that is my relationship with God. So I turn on this little teeny tiny light that I keep on my desk and my journal and my Bible is always on my desk because I know that's the first thing I'm going to do.
And so I begin with, you know, reading scripture, prayer, journaling, thinking, whatever it is I feel like I need in that moment in the morning. That's my time to talk with Him, to hear from Him, to study just whatever it is that I need in that day or He wants to tell me or communicate with me, I try to make that quiet space one because it's one of the few times in my house that it's quiet early in the morning. [00:07:38]
For me, that helps set the tone for my day. It helps if a child wakes up, I always know at least I got that part in. So that's for me really intentional to have a morning routine. And that's the first part of it. But our morning routine as a whole, that fuels my mental, emotional, and physical health. I make sure I do something every morning. I try to do something physically challenging whether that's running. I'm a runner.
I just try to make sure my first hour, one to two hours in the day, is taking care of me so that I can then show up to take care of others.
Laura Dugger: Something that you've released during a crazy season, I mean, March of 2020 was your Best Today Guide. So will you tell us more about the three-step process in there?
Shunta Grant: Yes. And let me say this about the Best Today Guide. You know, I actually joked, I said, Lord, you knew that we're going to launch this on March 16th, 2020. You could have told me that was going to be the first day of a nationwide school shutdown, job loss, and a pandemic. I would have changed the date. [00:08:45]
I was telling my friends, I was like, "I think He did that to show me something, to show me that launching this brand new product and really brand new company in the middle of something that you haven't seen in your lifetime and a lot of your peers haven't, I want to show you how this can still bring so much good and so much glory in what looks to you, looks to me as like the worst time. So that's been really fun. I will say.
The Best Today Guide today guide is a paper product. It is fantastic. It helps women get clear on what they want. And then it teaches you a three-step process that I use every single day. That first step of the process is to preview your week every single week.
So every Sunday evening, I sit down, I clear my mind. There's a page for that. And then I look at my week, my appointments, calls, meetings, deadlines. And then I define what is the most important thing that I'm focused on this week. And all of this is laid out in the Best Today Guide on one page when you're previewing your week. [00:09:42]
So this way, before you even start your week, you now have a roadmap of what's happening this week, what's going on, what days have this in it, what days are empty, which days may feel full.
Then step two is every night you plan the next day. You never planned your day the day of. So step two, you open up the page where at night you plan what time you're going to wake up in the morning, what your morning routine will be, what you're going to do for your mental, emotional, and physical health.
By the end of the day, the one most important thing, the one most important thing, I think it's so hard for people to just focus and be okay with one thing being the main thing. So I teach you to do that every single day. And then the remainder are your results and outcomes for the day.
I intentionally did not call this a to-do list because I believe a to-do list is more of a wishlist, things you would do if you had all the time in the world, all the resources in the world, and then you're disappointed when the end of the day comes and nothing gets completed. [00:10:40] So I like people to think in terms of like, what are the outcomes I need today? What are the results I need today? That's step two.
Then step three, every morning you begin with the best today process, which ask yourself, what does my best look like today? What are the self-destructing things that I need to avoid today and my vision for the future? These three questions are so important when you're starting your day. First and foremost, like, what does your best look like? So that you give yourself this standard to rise to. But again, it's your best. So it's not what do you think the world thinks your best looks like today or what is your sister's best today. It is what is your best.
Then I think it's very unwise to think about your best without actually acknowledging the things that you do to take away from that, the things that rob you from that. That's why immediately I have you, and I do this every morning, to acknowledge your self-destructing habits that really rob the good things that we try to do.
Lastly, I believe vision is so important. Without a vision, people will perish. [00:11:41] And so I have a section where every morning I write out my vision for the future so that I can see it clear as day where I'm headed, where I'm going.
The last step is one thing you're doing today that progresses you toward that vision for the future. And you do that every morning. This may sound like a lot, but I can do all of these things. I can plan my next day in three minutes flat. The nighttime, the morning. Nothing takes a lot of time.
It's just teaching you how to stop and be really intentional. Like if you're not thinking about your vision for the future, what are you doing every day? Because that in a way guides what you're doing. You know, there's nothing I don't do in my day that's not directly linked to something that I have in my vision for the future. And I don't think a lot of people can say that, but I want to help them to be able to.
Laura Dugger: If it's okay to kind of put you on the spot, are you comfortable sharing your answers to those questions? Like if you look at today's entry, what did you write? [00:12:40]
Shunta Grant: Yes. So today my best looks like celebrating my son. Today is my son's birthday, but it's also a work day. But I want to make sure that when work is over, work is over and that he gets all of my attention. He's two. He doesn't even realize today is his birthday, but really celebrating him.
Another thing my best looks like showing up well for all of my calls. So this is the day I do all of my calls. So I have been on call since 10 this morning, back to back to back to back. That can be a little draining, but I want to give every person as if they didn't know I've been on another call. Like this is the only thing I had to do today. So showing up well for each and every call that I had today is on my what does my best look like today.
Other days, I mean, there'll be things like, you know, praise and Thanksgiving, abiding. That's kind of like my... I have a word on my arm. It's like a little bracelet that has a word on it. My intent and my word is abide. I write that every day because I think for me, it's the word that captures so much of what I want to do.
If you really look at the definition of that word or what it really means to abide in Christ, it really... for me, I just look at that all day long because it's a word that gives me so much in one little word. [00:13:49] So abide. I need to abide if I want to show up as my best today.
For self-destructing today it's my phone in my hand. Today's the day with calls, so I don't need my phone. If I have my phone in my hand, I am either distracted between calls. I'm distracted on a call. I'm not showing up as my best. So my phone in my hand is the self-destructing thing that I need to avoid today.
My vision for the future, I write the same thing almost every day. Some of those include being a healthy runner, running with Zoe and Liam. Those are my children. I envision when they're older, I can see us with our numbers on, running in a race, having that time to share something I love with them, maybe later grandchildren running with them.
Having a close and individual relationship with both Zoe and Liam is another thing I write down. That really matters to me. When they are older and they have questions and they need life advice, they can turn to their mom because they know that she's a person who has wisdom, that they know they can trust me, that they can come to me when they feel like they've done something that I may not have agreed with. [00:14:49]
I want to have a close, real relationship with each of my children individually so they know that I love them for exactly who they are and it's not like they're a unit together, right? I know Zoe and I know Liam because they are two different human beings who God is going to use in different ways. So that's really important to me.
Having a clean, calm, and organized home is something I write down every day. Also, I want our home to be a place of rest where we can breathe deeper and laugh louder. The way we can do that is by keeping it clutter-free and making it a place we can put memories that imprint on my children's heart. Those are things that really matter to me.
I also have things related to work about having a very loyal, dedicated team as we continue to grow. But every day, the first things that I write about really tie back a lot to my children and how close I want to make sure that I am with them.
That, of course, informs the decision I make today. I can't wait till they're 18 to want to start building a relationship with them. So if that's something I'm writing every day [00:15:49] When I'm with them and I also have my phone in my hand, I'm going to put it down because how can I have a relationship with someone I'm not making time solely for? And so it really does inform the things that I do.
Laura Dugger: That's incredibly helpful to hear that example. And just listening, you're invested in your husband. You're invested in your children. You're invested in your team and your personal health. You have a full plate. So I know when other people tell you that they're busy, how do you respond to them?
Shunta Grant: Oh, I once was there. I have a hate-hate relationship with the word "busy". I think it is a 34-letter word. I think we have allowed the word busy to just become a thing that we're okay with identifying as. And I was that.
The reason I have such strong feelings about it is I remember the day I caught myself for the last time saying, I'm just so busy. Someone was asking me how things were going and before I even let my brain think about the answer, my mouth had already said, "Oh, I'm just, it's just so busy. It's just so busy." [00:16:53]
And I remember sitting in my car and it's almost like I stepped outside of myself and I was like, Why is that always my go-to answer? What am I really saying? I think if we really took the time to say what the word means, we'd stop saying it so much.
So I always invite people, the next time you want to tell someone you're busy, why don't you just tell them the truth and say, I am unintentional. I lack vision and I'm not clear on what it is I want out of my life. And so I'm doing a little bit of everything.
Now, if you start saying that, you'll probably stop wanting to answer that question. But that is exactly what you're saying when you're saying you're busy. I am so without focus that I'm doing a little bit of everything and I don't know if any of it is actually tied to a vision for my life. That's what I take busy to mean. It's I'm not intentional.
Now, your life can be full, today was a full day, but it's not busy. Everything that we have planned and on the calendar was intentionally planned. We can connect it to our mission here in our company. It was intentional. It wasn't just a lot of this and that. That's what I was doing before. [00:17:55] Just a little bit of everything. But nothing was really tied and connected to a mission or a vision. It was just stuff to do. And that's what busy is to me.
Laura Dugger: And so if we start equating busy with unintentional, then what are some ways that we can overcome busyness or choosing to be unintentional?
Shunta Grant: I think the first question I always lead with and anyone who's heard me speak anywhere, I will ask you, start with what do you want? What is it that you actually want? To some that may be a really big question, to some that may be a simple question. But what is it that you want? What is your vision for your life or your future? Who are you? Who are you independent of your human relationships? Is what I always say. Because a lot of times people will say, Oh, I'm a mom. Oh, I'm a wife. Oh, I'm a friend. Oh, I'm a daughter.
But before you are any of those things, who are you? If you were ripped of all those human relationships, do you know you? Who are you? What do you like? What do you want? What is your vision? [00:19:02]
Just really getting clear on who you are and what you want, I think is the first place to begin because those things inform what we want to do with our time. They inform what we will allow and what we won't allow. They set boundaries. They make decision-making so much easier. And it helps you to then set a vision for your life. What are the things that you see that you want to do?
You know, another thing I have a vision of is not only us living debt-free, but ensuring that my children and my children's children and my children's children's children can live life debt-free and be way smarter and wiser than I was. I can't do that. I can't make choices today if I don't know that that's where I want for my future generations.
Vision goes beyond you. But vision, I think, helps you to be intentional because now you have somewhere you're trying to go. I was just saying this this morning in another call that everything we do is taking us somewhere. You just don't want to wake up and end up somewhere you had no intention. [00:20:02] You don't want to wake up in Des Moines, Iowa if you were headed for Disney.
But that's what a lot of people are doing. They don't realize that everything we do or don't do is taking us somewhere. You may as well be intentional and go to the place that you desire.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity.
Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Lemans".
Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. [00:21:13]
Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: Do you think there's kind of a myth that intentionality takes too much time and I'm too busy to fit this in when in reality we probably waste more time when we're simply being reactive?
Shunta Grant: Absolutely. I know that for a fact. It's 100% fact that if you were to get intentional with your time, if you were to introduce routine into your life, if you were to even just start planning every day the night before, I know this because I've challenged women to do it for one week and the results are just unanimous. Like this makes a difference. You find time that you thought you never had. [00:22:17] I actually don't believe the sentence "I don't have time for [insert anything]". We do. We just get to choose.
We get to choose what we want to prioritize. Now, the truth may be I choose not to prioritize this right now. That could be a true statement. But I don't have time for, I don't have time to. We have time. It's just, if you allocate when you first sat still trying to make a decision, sitting in indecision, that's eating time, scrolling on your phone or anything on your phone for the most part, for that matter, you know, sitting and numbing yourself with television, not saying anything's bad with television, but like when you're just doing these things, because they're just the thing that your mind has been trained to do, but then in this next breath, you say you don't have time to read a book. Like, I don't believe you.
So you actually find time to do the things you want when you're actually intentional. If you're not intentional, you're just existing. You're treading water. You're floating from second to second throughout the day until you go to sleep and repeat and do it all over again. [00:23:15]
Laura Dugger: I think you're familiar with Laura Vanderkam's work as well, where she just brings to light we have 168 hours in a week and she unpacks that. And one of her practical takeaways is to track your time. Is that a practice that you've ever done personally?
Shunta Grant: You know, I did that a few times when I was curious about how long it took me to do certain things. I do use timers some days, like when my schedule is pretty tight. I don't do that as a daily practice, but I, one, do use timers on certain days.
And two, I have done tracking in the past when I wanted to just get an idea of, okay, can I get this thing done in two hours or something like that? I have done that before.
Laura Dugger: What are some of the best lessons you've learned in life and business as it relates to joy? Because that's what you're all about.
Shunta Grant: Yeah, Joy is one of my core values. My podcast is Business Life and Joy. I feel like you have to insert it in there. I think that joy is a choice. Sometimes it's really easy to find. It's the big elephant in the room. And sometimes it's like the needle in the haystack, but it's there. I think it's a choice. [00:24:23]
For me, one of the reasons why I actually love the word "abide" so much is that Scripture promises that if you abide in Him, His joy would be full in you. Actually, that's one of the reasons that caught my attention, the word "abide" caught my attention so much was that it was tied and connected to joy. And not my joy. His joy is full within me. You can't beat that.
For me, it's also knowing that the source of my joy can't be shaken because a pandemic can hit or you could suffer great loss. Anything can happen. We just don't know. But there's nothing that can happen that can steal joy from me. I like controllables. That's something that I can stand on. It's something that I can be confident in.
And because of that, I think that's part of the reason why it kind of oozes out of me is because I realized some days it may be really hard, but it's a choice that I still have because it's something that no circumstance, condition, no loss, no hurt, no pain can steal from me and can remove from my life. [00:25:33] I'm in control of that by my choice to abide in Him.
Laura Dugger: For you, what does abiding look like?
Shunta Grant: It is knowing that I can hold fast to His word and His promises and I can find safety there, like abiding, like residence, you know, like your humble abode, like that means abide, like find residence, take residence in Him to find shelter and peace no matter what else is going on.
I think that's part of the reason why I'm so unshakable or it's very, very hard for it to shake me because nothing can change the solidness of Him. And if I have that, I'm good.
Laura Dugger: So I've listened to many of your teachings on business and you seem enthusiastic about the impact of mission statements. So I would love to know what is your personal mission statement?
Shunta Grant: Wow. I actually keep on my wall. I have it right here the mission statement for each one of my companies and then I have my personal statement. [00:26:35] And so mine says... I'm just going to read it verbatim. It just says, "My life is found in Jesus Christ and His word. I was created to worship and glorify Him with all that I am. My talent, time, and resources are from Him, and I use them to be a help to others for His glory. Because He is with me, I have no need to fear or be weighed down by the cares of this world. He has overcome the world and conquered death. And through Him, I live, I move, and have my being. By abiding in Him daily, His joy rests fully within me and my life. This equips me to show up for myself and others daily."
I keep that right here at my desk because I want to be reminded because being a business owner, it can be really hard. There are some days that are very discouraging. But if I have something to go back to just to remind me that I don't have to be weighed down by the cares of this world and that I have no need to fear. If I can just be reminded of that truth, I always get to kind of bounce back from the blows that come sometimes with being a business owner. [00:27:33]
Laura Dugger: And if someone's interested in crafting their own mission statement, do you have any questions that you recommend they start with?
Shunta Grant: Actually, I have a full podcast episode. I don't know which number it is. I can get that to you. But I have an episode that talks about crafting your own life statement, mission statement. And it's also over on the Best Today blog.
But really, it just goes into going back to like, who are you? So for me, I thought about that. Notice, I don't mention being a mom in there. I don't mention being a wife. I don't mention being a sister or daughter. I am thinking about like, Who am I? And again, void of any other human relationship. So I like to start there and thinking like, who are you and what are the truths that you know that you want to do?
Some mission statements talk more so about like what you want to do. For me, I chose to do something just to remind me of who I am and where my foundation is. For me, that was really helpful because you can forget that sometimes, particularly in the business world, or at least I could if you're looking at other things. I wanted something that would remind me to keep my eye on what is. [00:28:34]
But asking yourself questions about like, who are you? What really matters to you? What are the things you want to do here in this earth? Like when you're not here, what do you want to be true of you? How do you want to be remembered? What do you want to be said of the things that you did? Those are some questions that you can start asking yourself.
Laura Dugger: So what are your overall priorities in life?
Shunta Grant: For me, my priority is glorifying God, using what He's given me to use it in this earth the best I can to love people really well. Starting with me first, because I think a lot of times we forget that I am my priority. That is why I start my day with me. I am not ashamed of that.
And I remove any guilt from any woman out there or any mother out there listening who thinks that you have to be a martyr to be a good mother. In my opinion, you're a good mother when you can show that you can take care of yourself, you care for yourself, you love yourself, you do what you need for your mental, physical, spiritual health. [00:29:32]
So I am my priority and loving people well. And those people are God, myself, my family, my extended family, my audience, my customers. I pray. I love the women in my audience. I think of them often. I try to create things that I think will help them. But those are my priorities. Glorifying God, loving others well, starting with myself, and doing something in this earth that is not superficial, something that's bigger than myself. I believe that's the work we're doing. It's something that's bigger than me.
Laura Dugger: I would love to camp out here for a little while because that is a fresh take of loving God, then loving yourself so that you can love others well. How did you arrive at that truth?
Shunta Grant: I kept saying, I don't have time to. That thing I said wasn't true. I said I don't have time to exercise. I don't have time to read my Bible the way I used to when I was single or when we were newlyweds. Oh, my goodness, when we were newlyweds, we had time to do all the things together. [00:30:33] And I just kept saying, I don't have time. I don't have time. And then I felt like this is making me a good mom because I am using all of my energy and resources for her.
And then I realized, I just kept saying it over and over and over. It's kind of like that busy thing. And I once finally hurt myself and I said, "This doesn't make any sense. I don't have time to open a book. I don't have time to read more than one scripture. And I'm saying, because I am such a good mom, because I am doing this, because I am cleaning this. No. I realized it was an excuse and it wasn't true. I wasn't making it a priority.
And then I had to actually ask myself, what matters to me? And I realized I have to matter to me because no one was saying, Hey, no, go take care of yourself. And if you don't say that for yourself, who's going to? So I had to realize that the way I can best love others is to love me.
And what does loving me mean? It means taking care of my health, the things that I need. I need time for quiet. [00:31:38] I really need time for quiet. The mornings where I don't get it, I am a completely different person. So that means some mornings I hear my son's crying in the crib, but I'm still in the middle of my morning time. He's safe. He's in his room. Either I will get him when I'm done or my husband will come in and get him. But I am in, and they know I am in my time. And my husband has the same thing for himself. You know, we know when he's downstairs praying, we are not bothering him.
So it's just realizing that I needed to put that boundary up and I needed to say for myself, you need time for you. It's been the best thing because it's opened up so many other areas, I think, to realize where I just wasn't hitting the mark. But yeah, I think it was just slowly realizing I kept saying I didn't have time for things and I thought that was making me look good. Like, oh, look at me. You know, I don't have time to do that. Who does things for themselves when you're such a fantastic mom. No, like that doesn't make sense.
Also, one day she's going to live somewhere else. What does that leave me? You know, 18 years of not knowing who I am. [00:32:40] So just doing that led to not only prioritizing myself, but getting to know me. Like I said, independent of relationships. That's where that came from. I was like, what do I like? You know, what do I like that I don't like because I do it with her or do it with him? Like, what do I like? Like really getting to know me. And that just I think is some of the best exploration you can do is with yourself.
Laura Dugger: Hey everyone. The Bible frequently advices us to put into action what we are learning. That is one of our prayers behind The Savvy Sauce podcast, that each of us would experience transformation as we walk in step with the spirit to apply the knowledge we've learned.
One way to do that is by taking these conversations one step further and using the resources that partner with each of these episodes. If you are going to purchase any of these resources, we invite you to do that through our show notes. It costs you nothing extra, but it does provide a tiny kickback to help fund our efforts at The Savvy Sauce. [00:33:39]
Our team personally does this and we hope that you will too by visiting TheSavvySauce.com and clicking either on today's episode title to access the show notes or visit our Resources tab to find all recommended resources. We hope you find these books and products to be beneficial to your life.
Okay, so your businesses have also been thriving for years. So what are some of your secrets?
Shunta Grant: I don't try to do everything. There is a list of things that I wish we could do yesterday that just are not getting done. And I'm okay with that. I wasn't always. So one of my secrets, not so secret secrets, is you can't do it all.
We are slowly growing. We are actually bringing in HR to start growing and adding employees to our team. But I just can't do it all. Right now, I work two days a week. Next month, it'll be moving to three days a week.
So it's learning how to prioritize, just like in life, and say, okay, what's the best business decision we can make right now? [00:34:39] What can we give our focus that's going to reach the most people and have the most impact and allow us to have impact and be generous? Because generosity is also a personal value and a business value. We want to be generous people. But we can't be generous if we don't have profit. So we need profit.
So making decisions based on, again, your mission. Everything that we do has to go back to be mission-minded. If you don't know whose problem you're solving, go back to that. That's where we start, right? I'm very clear on the woman that we serve. And I'm very clear that I am talking to women.
You know, if a man buys one of our products, sure, fine. But I want to be very clear I know exactly who I'm speaking to. I'm speaking to a particular type of woman who craves being proactive and intentional with her time, who knows that that can make a difference in her life for herself first, and then for her family and friends and all the other people she loves and who love her.
So I think for me, being really clear and really being obsessed and in love with the women that I create for is a secret that I think a lot... I'm not thinking about, first, the dollar. [00:35:44] I'm thinking about the life because the dollars are connected to the lives.
For me, that is where I've seen the most success is when our focus is on the person and how we are going to solve her problem and how we are very clear about the problem she's experiencing, the feeling she has, and how we can create something that can help relieve that.
Laura Dugger: And backing that up then, how do you even start to identify those problems?
Shunta Grant: Yeah. So, for me, this journey has been so organic but very linear. I started with a hairbow company, and then I started getting invitations to come and teach about business. And I found myself, even early on when I would start doing some business teachings, I always leaned toward working with women. And I found myself always wanting to ask them about their lives first.
Someone wants to talk about their business, but I want to know, like, okay, tell me what your hours look like. How much time do you have to work? What are the things that matter to you? That mattered to me because I always say, I want to help you get your life, and then you figure out what kind of business fits within that. [00:36:43]
We don't want to set up a business and then find the holes and poke your life in the little spaces that are left. That's the wrong way. That's why I called my podcast Business Life and Joy, because you can't talk about one without the other.
So I just found myself really interested in hearing women talk about their lives. And I found they were even like, you should be a life coach. I realized I can talk to you about business, but what I really loved was this life part of it, like really helping people figure out, like, I'm not spending enough time with my children. Can you please help..? How do I do that? And that's what we would do.
We would set up their business in a way that allowed it to grow but also gave them the time that they thought they didn't have to be with their family. And that's, you know, years ago, I said, at some point, I think my business is going to go beyond being for business owners. Because while I love that, there's so many other women who are not business owners who I want to reach.
And so this year really is the fruit of the vision I had to create something that reached women beyond. But I had to do each little thing along the way to get there. And now I feel like I'm really sitting in what I've really, really been meant to do. [00:37:50] I think all those things were to lead me here.
Laura Dugger: And with this most recent business, because we've talked about personal mission statements, could you also read your business statement?
Shunta Grant: Yes. So for the Best Today brand as a whole, we have... we know that the modern woman feels pressure to do it all, which results in a life of busyness. We help women get what they want in life by equipping them with resources to be proactive and intentional with their time so they can show up as their best today and every day.
Then we actually have a mission for every product we create also. So for the Best Today guide, we write, we know that the modern woman feels pressure to do it all, which results in a life filled with busyness and discontentment. That's the problem. The Best Today guide helps women get clear on what they want and provides a simple three-step process to guide them toward their vision for the future, one today at a time.
And so we do that because everything we create is mission-minded. We don't want to ever forget this one product has a mission in this world. [00:38:53] So we have our global, and then we also have, you know, everything has a mission statement that we create as well.
Laura Dugger: So you definitely know your intentional why. But with all of these values and priorities, how do you keep them top of mind?
Shunta Grant: I think they just become part of who I am. It's almost like, how do you remember your children's name? Like they're part of your life. You know, writing out my vision every day. I think that's been one of the most important things I could ever do because it just keeps getting me back to like... If you look at it... like I'm looking at my vision for the future from this morning. I talk about being generous. I talk about being healthy. I talk about my relationships. I talk about my business, the things I want us to be able to do. I talk about my home. These are the things that matter to me. And so I'm writing about them every single morning in the Best Today Guide. So that helps.
But really, I think your priorities, whether you have stated them or not, if you look at how you're using your time and your resources, there are your priorities. [00:39:53] They may not be what you want them to be, but look at how you spend your resources, that's your time, your energy, your money, and then you will find where your priorities are. So it's a part of all of us.
Laura Dugger: I wonder if this conversation is going to spur some people on to pursue their own personal growth. And are there any other ways, Shunta, that you cultivate personal growth in your own life?
Shunta Grant: I have a very small but close-knit circle of friends who can be honest with me and who I trust. I think that and really just doing the work on myself, like really challenging my thoughts, like why? But why? You know, I always try to ask myself four times, why? But why? But why? Like, why did you think that way? Especially if it's something that I don't think is helpful. I question my emotions. What can I learn from this emotion that I feel right now? That's a great question to always ask ourselves, whether the emotion is extreme gladness or frustration, anger, jealousy, whatever it is. Like ask yourself, what can I learn about myself from what I feel right now? [00:40:54] And I try to dig into that.
Laura Dugger: And the four whys, are you saying kind of four levels deep when you ask yourself why and you come up with your answer, then you ask why for that one?
Shunta Grant: Yeah. Like, why were you upset about that? Because he shouldn't have said it that way. Well, why are you mad that he said it that way? Well, because, you know... so you're asking to really... because usually it takes that many questions to get to the real root of why you are feeling that way. And that's the thing you need to deal with
Most people just deal with the top level, but until you pull out the roots, it's going to keep growing. It's going to happen again.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is so true. If everyone wants to learn more practical things like this and all of your other teachings, where would you direct them to go online?
Shunta Grant: So a great place to start would be bestadayguide.com. That is where you can learn more about the Best Today brand and the Best Today Guide. [00:41:44] And right now, our most popular program is called Right Now Routine, which helps you to create realistic routine right where you are. And you can learn more about that at rightnowroutine.com.
We just released Clean One Room, which teaches you how to stop cleaning your whole house, but instead clean one room at a time and build a routine around it. I think those are the areas that really are helping a lot of the women in our audience. And so you can find all of those things at those respective places.
Laura Dugger: Fantastic. We will link to all of that in both our show notes and on our resources tab. You may be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And we want to know how to apply some beneficial best practices from your life. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Shunta Grant: I think any wisdom that I can glean from the Word of God. It really is. That's what I always can go back to. And I think even scripture tells us that is what gives us health to our bones. It's what prolongs our life. [00:42:48] It really is the thing that does all the things that I really need in my life that allow me to show up and do the things that I want to do.
Laura Dugger: Shunta, I enjoy being a student of yours. And today was no exception. Thank you for the joy that you infuse in all your teaching and all the generosity you offer in sharing your ideas and insights. You're definitely an inspiration to me. And I loved hosting you as my guest today.
Shunta Grant: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:43:51] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:44:52] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:45:55]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 28, 2020
Monday Sep 28, 2020
*DISCLAIMER* Parts of this message are not intended for little ears
113. Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 17:9 says “He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.”
Bob and Audrey Meisner are best-selling authors, conference speakers, and Founders of Love Married Life ®. They both have their Doctorates in Ministry and specialize in helping marriages build and maintain phenomenal love. Their message of hope is authenticated by their own compelling story of God rescuing their marriage.
Known for their joy, transparency and practical principles, their message of God’s unconditional love, forgiveness and hope has been featured around the world through magazine articles, TV programs and churches. Bob and Audrey have four children and live in Phoenix, Arizona
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Bob and Audrey Meisner:
Like Yourself, Love Your Life by Audrey Meisner
Wake Up Smiling by Audrey Meisner
Free E-Books: My Communication Goals and My Personality Goals
Bob and Audrey Meisner’s Website
Bob and Audrey Meisner’s Podcast
Bob and Audrey Meisner’s Marriage Intensive
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
I heard an incredible story over a decade ago, and it has always stuck with me. Then recently, I came across Proverbs 17:9, and I couldn't get that story out of my head. Proverbs 17:9 says, "He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends." [00:01:20]
This scripture always reminds me of Bob and Audrey Meisner. So after I closed my Bible that day, I emailed them and requested they would be guests on this episode, and they said yes! So here we are. I hope your faith is expanded after hearing this redemptive story.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Bob and Audrey.
Audrey Meisner: Oh my gosh, we have been so excited about this. I love the title of your podcast. I just think it's so unique and fun, and I'm always about the fun.
Bob Meisner: Yeah, the time that we'll spend together, I believe, will be extremely meaningful and beneficial to the listener.
Audrey Meisner: Mm-hmm. We're honored to be here, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm so thrilled to have both of you. I've admired you from afar.
Bob Meisner: Wow.
Audrey Meisner: Aw, I love that. We're family together. I love to say that we're not just like family, because we are family. We really all share such mutual belief in knowing that Jesus is amazing. And so we get to share that together. [00:02:24]
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I'm so excited for people to hear your story. So let's just begin with you two taking us back to how you first met each other.
Audrey Meisner: We started with a friendship. Bob was my brother's roommate, my big brother's roommate. It was a friendship, but I remember the moment we started sharing hearts with each other. I remember we would have these conversations, like, "There's something about me. This is not friends anymore." And we got to get out of the friend zone.
And so it took a while. I had to, you know, drop some pretty stark hints. We started dating for a couple of months, and then we got engaged right away.
Bob Meisner: We got engaged that summer, and then we lived apart for a year. She went back to school. I went home to my home state, Michigan. And we spent, you know, basically a year apart.
Audrey Meisner: Engaged.
Bob Meisner: Engaged. And then that next summer we were married.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah.
Bob Meisner: So it was pretty quick.
Audrey Meisner: And we've been in ministry our entire lives. We immediately started working together for my parents' ministry in Canada. [00:03:24] And it was just very natural for us to love people. I think that, you know, we were very attracted to each other, like we just wanted to get married now. You know how that is once you know. And so we spent that year apart. We just dove into full-time ministry and just loved life together.
Bob Meisner: What we really enjoyed about each other, you know, from the very beginning, is that, you know, we love the Lord, we wanted to be world changers. We believed that the two of us together, we would be able to do something that we couldn't do apart from each other.
And I think that's one of the beauties of marriage, you know, where the two really come together and create a unified vision. Honestly, we are better together than we are apart.
Audrey Meisner: And so we got married, and we just... I even remember on our honeymoon, Laura, that I looked at... like we were young. We were 19 and 21. But I looked at Bob, and I said, "You know what? We could have kids, and no one could stop us. Like we're adults. No one can tell us what we can't do, you know? [00:04:25]
Bob Meisner: But we thought the wise or smart thing to do would be to at least wait a couple years.
Audrey Meisner: Yes.
Bob Meisner: So we did.
Audrey Meisner: We barely waited.
Bob Meisner: But we really wanted and loved children.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, we couldn't wait to have kids. So it was pretty early in our marriage where we had three kids in five years. We had a boy and then a girl and a boy. And just loved being parents together.
Bob Meisner: We loved married life.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I just want to say this upfront, that we all already love you and root for you. But I know we have to go through the sin and ashes to then discover the beauty that comes later. So about 17 years into your marriage, what happened?
Bob Meisner: All I could say is that I believe we had the best marriage imaginable. This was not on the radar. We weren't arguing. We weren't fighting with each other. Life wasn't difficult. In fact, life was busy. Audrey and I were very, very busy doing really good things. [00:05:26] An international children's television program. A national daily Christian TV.
Audrey Meisner: We were pastoring a church together.
Bob Meisner: We were pastoring a church. And we just thought, "What more could we do?"
Audrey Meisner: You hear the busyness of three entire careers all happening at the same time, plus raising our kids. So I remember years back when we had been in service, and I heard the words "Beware of the barrenness of busyness". And it's a really silent, covert operation when you just start making choices to just keep helping people and just losing that connection. Even though you're getting along, we just were missing the connection.
Laura Dugger: So you're in ministry, you've got children in the home right now. And at this point, their ages are teenagers?
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, they were like 10, 12, and 15 years old. Let me just set the stage for what happened here, Laura, because it was on my part, we were busy, and I was just working really hard. [00:06:29] I remember just feeling that quiet desperation of feeling trapped in my life, that we were too committed to too many things. And I was starting to dread every new day because I was the happy one. I'm the fun one.
So I've got to wake up and put that... I don't want to call it a mask because I truly was happy as far as I'm a joyful person. But the exhaustion and the over-responsibility was just weighing on me, and I never felt like I could ever do enough to get everything done in the day. I was starting to feel just literally exhausted. I was not telling him about this at all. This was a very silent struggle that I was going through.
A young guy started coming to the church that we were pastoring, and he started just asking me... He just started noticing all the work I was doing. And you know what's really weird is it just felt good for somebody to notice. He said, "Does anyone know how much you do in a day? Does anyone see what you're doing?" And I just went, "Wow." [00:07:30]
And what happened was I felt like my heart just got heard. Like somebody noticed that maybe it's not that easy or that I'm going through more than anyone might know. So he touched a place in my heart which drew me into this friendship with him.
And we were more like I was helping him, and it was just one of those relationships where, Oh, we're just friends. And I'm so glad that I can be friends with this guy because he's helping me. Now he's starting to tell me how beautiful I am and I thought, "Oh, my gosh, that feels so good. We need to get you a girlfriend." But I was just happy for the attention and happy for the help.
So this just became a friendship. That's where I can say that I made a small compromise, and that was just that I started having private email conversations with him. I started thinking, "A little compromise, I can go out for lunch with him."
This is the part that is so sobering because there's no such thing as a small compromise because when you start to lean towards sin, sin will take you further than you ever dreamed it would go. [00:08:37] Sin is never satisfied. It kept wanting more. Wanted that next conversation, wanted to get a little bit more private, maybe a little more intimate.
Before long, that friendship lasted a while, but it did turn into a sexual affair. And that is something I never dreamed that I was even capable of because I loved Jesus all my life. I love my husband. I love my kids. We're leaders. My passion is to bring people to Jesus, so now I'm carrying this intense secret. I cannot even describe to you the turmoil of living a dual life, like a duplicity of lying so that I can get out of the house.
All of a sudden, I was on this crazy train, and I was carrying this secret, and I was emotionally like a junior high person. I knew that everything that I was doing went against who I was.
After three weeks of having this sexual affair, we stopped the affair, and he immediately moved away the next day. [00:09:37] I said, "You're going to have to leave town." And that was when I just made the decision, I will never do that again. I am going to repent. No one ever needs to know about this because this will never happen again. Nobody knows, and it'll never happen again.
So there I was with my secret. I planned on keeping the secret, but it was only a couple days of me, you know, just really praying and asking God to forgive me. And I heard that still small voice in my heart saying, "You need to tell Bob." And I resisted it. I fought it. I thought, "No, no, no, no, no, no, he doesn't have to know. I'll just be such a good girl. I'll just make up for this and be really good." See, the enemy loves secrets, and the secret has a power to divide intimacy. Even if it's an unspoken secret, it has power.
A couple days after that guy left town, I'm not a confrontational person. I hadn't confronted Bob in 17 years about anything. I'm a people pleaser. [00:10:39] This is completely against me, but everything in me just fell at his feet and said, "Honey, we need to talk." And I still remember exactly where you are. When you have a moment like this in your life, you do not forget where you are.
I remember the office, the empty office. I remember the chair in the corner, and I just fell at Bob's feet and I said, "Honey, I've got to tell you something. I had an affair. I committed adultery."
Laura Dugger: Wow. And such a tender moment in the office. So, Bob, at that point when you first heard the news, how did you respond?
Bob Meisner: Not well. I could say that. It was like a real surprise because I know her. And this is completely incongruent with who she is and who we are as a couple and as a family. So I began to ask questions. I began to interrogate. I found out who it was, when. You know, it just began to compile. I just became angry. [00:11:40]
But the only thought that I had in my mind was, I don't have an answer, but I don't want this to ever happen again. So it's not just like a little oops or a hiccup in the relationship and, you know, okay, I forgive you. Let's move on.
It was like, how do I express anger? You know, how do I really show I'm really disappointed? Honestly, I was clueless of what to do. And I remember storming out of the room and I sat at my office desk and I stared at a blank wall and I just simply whispered, "Holy Spirit, I don't know what to do."
But it was that such small act of humility and he immediately answered me and he began a rescue plan for me. He began a rescue plan for my marriage, you know, for our family. And he reminded me of a gentleman that I had met about a year earlier and he said, "Call him." [00:12:40]
I called him. I let him know what I was going through, and the first question that he asked me was, "Who knows?" I said, "Nobody." He says, "Good, let's keep it that way." And I was like, "But I need to get more people involved. I mean, this is a big deal. I mean, we need to create at least a committee to figure out how are we going to fix this?"
And he said, "Bob," he says, "Don't you tell anyone until we have more time to talk later this evening." Well, that evening we got together and we, you know, sat and we spoke over a speakerphone and he began to challenge me, which I was so surprised because I was just waiting for him to begin to correct and, you know, Audrey, how could you have done this? You were so wrong. What were you thinking? None of that happened. And he began to challenge me.
I was really surprised because he began to challenge me with the heart of God. [00:13:41] Proverbs 25 too says this, "It's God's glory to conceal a matter and for a king to discover its understanding." Everything inside of me wanted to expose and wanted to shame. Everything inside of me wanted to control. It was being driven by fear. And he's challenging me with the heart of a Father, with the heart of God. And he says, "That's not his nature. He is one who covers."
Now, it's not that he turns a blind eye, it's not that he ignores, but rather He covers. And in covering, there are two primary principles. The first one is to protect from any further injury or harm. And then the second one is to promote healing. When we've been caught or wounded, we go immediately and we cover that wound. We protect that wound.
Everything inside of me wanted to expose and to shame Audrey. [00:14:41] There was so much fear inside of me. I just wanted to force my will. But that's not the heart of God. God covers and He covers me. And so I'm being challenged that very first night, Bob, will you cover your wife? Rather than exposing her, rather than shaming her, would you sense the love of God? And would you love her? And would you cover her?
You see, I think so often when these kinds of things happen, we blow them up and we just really prolong the healing process. And it's just like, what is the heart of God? I mean, I was being really challenged. And all that I knew is that I was out of my mind and this man knows something that I don't. So I had to trust him. I had to believe him.
And so that began. Then the next day, Audrey told her parents. We were living in Winnipeg. [00:15:42] We went to Phoenix for about a week. We got some help there. And it was almost as though, Okay, we're on a path of recovery.
Laura Dugger: I can hear the tenderness as you both share this and just God's grace is so evident.
Bob Meisner: You know what, Laura? I want to underscore that. A lot of people can misinterpret it and think, Oh, man, that dude's still hurting over this. Well, you know, it hurts. But when I go back and I remember moments like this, I become tender and I can feel the emotion because it was in my deepest hurt, in my deepest pain where I have been the most loved. And when I sense and feel and I know that love, it's wow. You see, it's love that really does conquer all. [00:16:43]
Audrey Meisner: It's those times of pain where you just experience Jesus like you never even dreamed.
Bob Meisner: That love is so real.
Audrey Meisner: It's so real. And when you need Him, He's there. Everyone who's been in a lot of pain knows what it feels like when you go to bed and Jesus is the last thing before you close off. And when you first wake up, you need Him so much.
So we got through those first couple weeks. I can't say it was easy. It was so painful, the continual interrogation, you know, just needing details, of course, of what I did. And every time I'd answer a question, I would just feel ripped from the inside of me that I have to say out loud what I had done.
After about two weeks, we were okay, like, considering what was happening. That's when we found out... We went to a doctor's office and we found out that I had become pregnant as a result of the affair. And I remember walking to that doctor's office and I thought, "When I told Bob about this affair, I didn't think I could face my future. [00:17:46] But now that I was pregnant, I didn't think I could face my life.
I didn't see any form or idea of hope because this baby would not look like the other kids. The other kids are like 10, 12, and 15 years old. The enemy just screamed in my head, "You're going to be known for the rest of your life for this most stupid and selfish thing that you've ever done. And your kids are going to have to pay. Their lives are going to be broken and tainted and confused."
I love my kids so much. And the thought of them having to pay for my selfishness in some way in their lives, like, it's just such a contradiction because I just want to protect my kids from pain. And here this is going to be like a forever stain on our family.
I didn't know what to do. To say I was scared is an understatement. I was scared out of my mind. As I said, the baby won't look like the others. [00:18:45] It's going to be obvious to everyone. I'm disqualified from everything I felt like I was born to do, which was to love people and tell people about Jesus.
A couple days after I found that out, I was alone in the kitchen and I was in torment and I made a phone call and I called the abortion clinic. And I said, "What do I do if I have to remain anonymous? What do I do?" And they said, "Oh, it's really easy. You just have to give us your address and we'll send you 10 pills in the mail. And you just take one every week for 10 weeks and your problem will be gone."
And I hung up the phone and I fell to my knees. And I just said, "Father, I said, you're my dad. You're my dad in heaven." And I said, "Please, please, I know I can't get an abortion because two wrongs do not make a right. Everything in me is saying I can't destroy this baby. [00:19:47] But Father, if you love me, if you love me, I've wanted to serve you all my conscious years since I was three years old. I just want to serve you. But if you could just please, please, I'm begging you, take this baby to heaven now."
I begged him for a miscarriage. So just take this baby to heaven. And as I say that, it's so emotional for me because I'm sitting here today just saying he did not answer that prayer. You know how we have these great ideas of how God could fix everything. But He says, "You know what? I'm not going to evacuate you out of your circumstances. But, Audrey, I'm going to come right to where you are and I'm going to hold you. And together, we are going to take it one day at a time and we are going to walk through."
The famous Psalm says, "Though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you fear no evil for I'm with you and my rod and my staff they comfort you." [00:20:48] And just that word "comfort" because every day He comforts us.
And when we're in pain and fear, so scared that we can't make it through, His presence becomes so real and His hope becomes your anchor that that's the only thing that you can hope for. So I didn't follow through with that.
It was a couple of days later, I was alone in the car with my dad and I have a very, very merciful, loving, earthly dad. I was alone in the car with him and I felt so safe with him because he wasn't judging me. And I said, "Dad, I don't know what to do because there's a baby. I don't know how to face my life because there's a baby.
And he put his hand on my shoulder and he just said one thing. He said, "Audrey, that's what you did. But that is not who you are." [00:21:48] And those words came over me and I chose to make those the forefront of my every day, all day. That is what I did but that is not who I am.
People in this world and on this earth will judge you by your worst mistake. But my heavenly father calls me His own. He calls me his daughter. And He says that He's never going to leave me. He's never going to turn his back on me. But he's going to be with me.
Laura Dugger: And what I admire about both of you is that in these times of distress, you turned toward the Lord, you called out for Him and he answered with loving kindness as He always does.
Audrey Meisner: So true, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. [00:22:54] Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.
Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.
While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.
I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went.
To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. [00:23:58]
Laura Dugger: And so at this point, how did you choose together to tell your children the news?
Bob Meisner: We resigned all of our positions, you know, living there in Canada, and we moved to Phoenix, Arizona. I'm a born American citizen, and so we were able to do that. But it wasn't that we were running from anything, but rather we were going to a place. We needed help. I knew that in and of myself, I didn't have it. So I needed direction.
You know, as Audrey said earlier, I don't want to mess up my family. You see, in my life, I know the pains of divorce as a young person, you know, with my parents walking through it. And it's just like, I don't want my kids to experience this. And so, God, I need you to be real. And that's what you're saying, Laura. We turned to Him. [00:24:57] But then all of a sudden, everything that you know about or believe about God, I need it to be real. I need it to be for me. That was where I was going.
Because everything that I had learned, everything that I had ever read, anything that I had ever preached, I needed it to be my reality. And so I just began to press hard, recognizing how deficient I was. But He is my source. And so Audrey's about four months pregnant and it was just after dinner one evening and I'm going through the process and I'm being challenged again in my heart by my pastor. You know, you can cover Audrey. And so I'm learning this covering. And it's not just how I cover her. But you can't give what you first don't experience. And I'm going through the process of experiencing the extravagance of the Father's love and He's covering me. You see, He's more than enough for me. And when that becomes mine, now I can give it away.
So she's four months pregnant, we have, you know, a typical classic Meisner family meeting up in the bedroom. And the kids walk in, and they enter the room and they see their mom and dad sitting on the floor crying. I remember my 15-year-old son. Just fear gripped his heart. And you could see it on his face. It's just like, uh-oh, something's really wrong. [00:26:34]
My daughter, 13, she comes in, and my son, 10 years old, he comes in, and here we are, a family of five and everything's about to change. But before I said one word, I stood up and I went and I pulled a large queen-size blanket from the bed. And I took that blanket and I covered Audrey from head to foot. And then I knelt down beside her and I wrapped my arms around her and I held her tight. And I looked deep into my children's eyes and I said, "Kids, this is what God does when we make a mistake. He comes to us and He covers us. He wraps His arms around us and He begins to whisper, 'I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you.'"
With Audrey covered and held in my arms, I looked deep in my children's eyes and I said, "Kids, we're a family. I'm not going anywhere. [00:27:36] We belong with each other." And with Audrey fully covered, I said, "Kids, your mom has made a mistake but you're going to have a baby brother."
Well, immediately, my oldest son, he's crying. He understood what had happened. My daughter, she's crying. But it only took her but a moment. And she begins to grin from ear to ear and she stares me down. And she says, "Daddy, we're having a baby." And she feels my pain and starts to cry. But she cannot contain the excitement. And she just looks at me eye to eye, "Daddy, we're having a baby."
My 10-year-old son, David, he's watching all of this and he says, "I just don't get it." He says, "At least I'm not going to be the youngest anymore." That's how we told our kids. We went from that room as a family. We're a family. And we belong with each other. [00:28:39]
We had, again, good days-
Audrey Meisner: It wasn't always easy.
Bob Meisner: Oh, gosh, not always easy.
Audrey Meisner: It was the hardest. Absolutely one of the most challenging days of our life where God was meeting us in those days.
Bob Meisner: Yeah. Audrey would grow and get larger and my daughter is just loving this baby, you know, rubbing Mommy's tummy, talking to the baby, you know. And then she would look at me as like, "Is this okay, Dad?" And I'm like, "Yes, sweetheart. You love that baby with everything that you've got."
And so it was. It was very, very challenging for me. And there was just such an immaturity. I needed to grow up. And I had no idea the depth of that in my own life.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Now how has life changed for both of you since that moment?
Bob Meisner: I'd like to kind of share with the people how this baby was born. I mean, that's a pretty cool day. [00:29:40] But I'll back it up just a little bit, because I kept asking my pastor, my friend, to help me, you know, just tell me what to do and he continually refused, because it's just like, I've got to get to God's throne room myself. I don't need him to be my answer. I need God to be my answer. I need Him to be my source.
But this one morning, we're having just a quick coffee together and I'm like, what do I do? Because I had a real national presence. So I had people calling me saying, "Bob and Audrey, you're doing so good, but you can't keep this baby. Don't bring that added pressure to your marriage. Don't bring that to your children." We have people in the church, "You can adopt this baby out."
So that morning I was with Him, and I'm just like, "Leo, what do I do? What do I do?" Finally, it was almost as though he had enough of me, and he says, "Bob, there's a baby on your doorstep. [00:30:42] What do you do? Will you participate with this fatherless generation, or will you become a father to the fatherless? You've got to grow up."
Probably one of the most loving things I ever experienced. So we went to the hospital, and it was probably just a few months later. And I choose my words very carefully. When my son was born, when our son was born, I gave him my name, Robert, because I don't want him to ever question a day in his life whose boy he is. He's my son, and he belongs. His middle name is Theodore, which means divine gift, because he's not an accident. He's not a mistake. He's not the result of a sexual affair. But just like my other three children, born out of the heart of God and entrusted to us, we're a family. [00:31:52]
Laura Dugger: Yeah. Wow. That is incredible. Thank you so much. Both of you just bringing us into that to see what that experience was like. You've mentioned God throughout the entire process, but He had even more in store for the two of you.
And, Audrey, Satan was whispering to you that this would ruin your plans forever and you couldn't do ministry and yet He's used this. So can you share what has come since that point in both of your lives?
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. It was a process. You know, we can't shortcut a healing process. We never dreamed in a million years that we would ever start sharing our story. The process of healing changed. And once Robert was born, there was a shift in our home where it was just sort of like this closure, like this new reality, new normal.
Bob Meisner: Because what was concealed is now revealed. Here he is. So as a family, we just began to grow with each other. [00:32:51]
Audrey Meisner: And it was just amazing to me how the kids to this day have embraced Robert. Like there is no difference other than he's a lot younger and maybe a little bit darker. But I mean, my goodness, like we are a family with four kids.
But how this is what happened is a couple years later, we were asked to share this story. And I was like, "Whoa, like I don't want..." Like that was-
Bob Meisner: That was terrifying.
Audrey Meisner: That was terrifying for sure.
Bob Meisner: I do want to say this. After a couple of years, it was almost as though we were right back into ministry. We were right back to where we were previous. And yet it was like this isn't what we want. And it's almost as though we're back into this tandem lifestyle again. And it's like we are missing the benefit of our union of oneness. There's a place where you kind of modify behavior. You weather the storm but-
Audrey Meisner: But we started to slip. We started to slip back in the same rut of being busy and getting into that. [00:33:54]
Bob Meisner: That routine and busyness.
Audrey Meisner: But then something in us we just knew wasn't okay. I went through an experience where after two years, Bob was really in a depression because I think he could just feel that we haven't really dealt with this in a way.
Bob Meisner: And I'm trying to be okay.
Audrey Meisner: He's trying to be okay.
Bob Meisner: I'm managing my anger. You see, I'm managing the images and the thoughts that I have. But again, it was challenging.
Audrey Meisner: It was. I remember one day when I just had done everything I could to fix him and be better and perform and be the most amazing wife ever. But I remember when God whispered into my heart and He said, "You know what, Audrey, changing Bob isn't your job. The most irresistible thing that you can do for your husband is stop trying to change him or fix him or heal him or make him better."
There was a day I remember when I just released Bob and said, "God, I trust you with him." And something transformed in my heart. And it was just a couple of years later when we went through a very deep moment where I saw myself as Jesus saw me so righteous and clean. [00:35:00] I don't have to prove myself anymore.
Then later that same weekend, Bob had a moment where he absolutely chose to rescue me rather than judge me. And those experiences turned into something very transformational in our hearts. And now we started to feel the strength of the story rather than the fear of our story or the sadness in our story. We started to feel God restoring us and redeeming this.
There became this presence of God that would come. And when we first told our story, marriages started to say, Wow, if you can do that, then we can work through our stuff. And we began growing in our understanding of what the contributing factors were that brought us to that point.
We started dealing with unresolved conflict that had been there right from the very beginning that we didn't have the skills to navigate. And it turned into writing books and a marriage ministry and, you know, our children growing up together and seeing true... [00:36:06]
There's no performance or fakeness in the life that we have where our kids. Yeah, we're not perfect but there is just this atmosphere of love in our house. We've actually named our house the House of Mercy, where we don't want our kids running away from home when they mess up. We want our kids running to home because this is our house of mercy. And we do real life together.
Laura Dugger: Amen to all of that, especially that none of us are perfect.
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We certainly can all learn from our own and even others' mistakes. What do you think is the biggest lesson that God taught each of you about your part in your marriage not going the way you had originally envisioned?
Audrey Meisner: Well, you asked both of us, so I'll go first. Basically, one of the biggest lessons I learned was that I had never understood or had the skill to navigate disappointment. Early on in our marriage, I had felt disappointed with Bob, but I never learned how to voice that, how to express it, how to be honest about it.
So when I would try to voice a disappointment, it would turn into a conflict where I would feel attacked and I would shut down. And that became a pattern in our life where disappointment turned into unresolved conflict, which turned into despair. And it resulted in not having an honest and real relationship in a deep kind of a way. [00:38:17] And I can see now that that affected me right from the beginning.
Bob Meisner: There are definitely foundational things that are in there. And boy, what a question, Laura. Just one? Are you kidding me?
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. What is the biggest lesson? I just gave you a big lesson. There's like a million of them. I just chose one. You know what I mean?
Bob Meisner: When people begin to get help or they're recognizing they're having a breakdown in their relationship, usually it goes to a place of communication. For us, I felt like we communicated, but we really didn't. What we found is that... you know, typically in psychology, you have the passive, the aggressive, passive-aggressive, and the assertive. I throw in a fifth one. And that fifth one is the Jesus model.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. I love Jesus model.
Bob Meisner: And Jesus teaches in communication to speak the truth in love. [00:39:18]
Audrey Meisner: Yes.
Bob Meisner: And what we found in our relationship is that I had no problem speaking truth.
Audrey Meisner: Came natural to you.
Bob Meisner: But bringing it in a loving way, wow, did that ever have to change? And then for Audrey-
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, for me, I was really going to be loving and sweet and nice and kind. But I just held back truth of how I was really feeling or truth about how I was... you know, in the deepest part of me, I just hid that and thought, Oh, I can just choose what I'll tell Bob. If it's going to cause a conflict, then I'll just not say it. So I was really good at speaking love, 100 percent love, but my truth wasn't as strong. I have realized since then Bob feels most loved when I'm truthful.
Bob Meisner: So that was one of them. The other is that I wanted to blame her and the circumstances and I wanted that to give me permission to be angry, to be distant, to withhold, to be unloving. [00:40:18] Why? Because it's your fault. And then we shift blame. And you might think, well, yeah, of course. And it's like, No, I can't change anyone but I can take personal responsibility for me. So I had to learn what is it to be a husband, to be a father. I am so thankful that I'm not the person I used to be-
Audrey Meisner: Me too. I mean, I meant to vote me, Bob. I did not mean that about you. But I am, to be honest.
Bob Meisner: Thank God for fixing my husband.
Audrey Meisner: No, no, no. I'm glad that I'm not the person I used to be too. But we're both on it. I have to admit. I am glad you're not the person you used to be. Because you're much nicer now. You're a lot kinder. We've both taken serious personal responsibility for how we have over, in our personality and in our behavior styles, when you overuse your strengths, they become your weakness.
Bob Meisner: You know, one of the things people look for is why. You know, you drill it into the other person. Why did you do this? Why did you say that? And it's always linked to a judgment. And what you want to do is you want to hang blame somewhere. There isn't one logical explanation that would ever make it okay.
Audrey Meisner: Would you make it feel better? It's never going to feel okay. No.
Bob Meisner: No. It was wrong. It never should have happened, but it did. So where do we go to from here? [00:41:46]
Laura Dugger: It sounds like you just resisted that victim mentality and chose the remedy, like you're saying, of just-
Bob Meisner: I was a good victim, Laura. I was. Because it's easy. Because then people would come and say to me, "Hey, Bob, why are you so sad? Why do I sense this sadness about you?" And it's just like, "Oh, here, you don't know my story. Let me tell you my story." And then all of a sudden, they're just like, "Oh, I get it." You see?
I always relate that to blind Bartimaeus, where he goes to Jesus, but before he goes to meet Him, it says that he removed His garment and He went to Jesus, and Jesus asked Him this question. He says, "Bartimaeus, what do you want?" He says, "I want to see." And better phrased this way, what are you willing for me to do for you? [00:42:46]
And Bartimaeus is like, "Lord, I want to regain sight." But him removing his garment is very important because that garment that he wore identified him as a legitimate blind man worthy of receiving alms. You see, I could have worn a garment the rest of my life and I could say, yeah, I'm this way because of, and now I live circumstantially, you know, because of this and then I blame and on and on. But it was just like, I'm going to leave that garment behind. Jesus, open my eyes. I need your perspective. I don't see right. I'm blind. I'm angry. You see, I'm resentful. Jesus, I need to see what you see. And that was a huge transformational journey for me.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And on this unexpected journey, is there anything else that either of you have discovered that you'd like to share with either a single or a married couple that's listening right now? [00:43:49]
Audrey Meisner: Yeah. Probably that your spouse... like no one's responsible to make you happy. No one can be your source, but Jesus. For me, when I was in that place of quiet desperation, I needed Jesus, but I needed to get honest with Him to create a space where you really experience Jesus. You don't just know about Him and you don't just pray to Him using nice language, but you actually, you know, experiences love and you can go to your secret place.
But as you're there in that place, as you close your eyes, just say, Jesus, I need you and you are my source. And then whenever I try and expect Bob to be my source for anything, it can result in disappointment. It's never fair to see someone as your source. Bob is my number one contributor, but he is not my source.
So for a single person, you know what? You need Jesus. Jesus is your source for absolutely everything. As a married person, he's your source. That's how we're protected from becoming users in relationships. [00:44:51] We want to love because we are so loved. You know, like experience God's love so that you can love others.
Bob Meisner: Something I'd like to bring out is that in fear... fear will always create worst-case scenario.
Audrey Meisner: Right.
Bob Meisner: And fear will always control. So you'll either be controlling to others or that emotion will want to drive your life. I remember when I had the first thought and it was like my first panic attack. The first time I had ever had the thought, what do I do if she's pregnant? And I remember where I was walking with Audrey and my pastor and I'm like, "I'm going to drop this bombshell of a question. I mean, it's going to stump him because I don't know what to do." So I asked him and I just said, "Leo, what do I do if she's pregnant?" Because for me, I'm thinking this is a game changer. There is no marriage after this.
But before I could even finish asking the question, he immediately responded, "Bob, His grace will be more than enough for you." [00:45:56] I tell you, Laura, I remember it was... I clenched my fist and it's just like, dude, I'll take you out right now. No, really. I was just like, don't give me this religious cliché. This is my life that we're talking about. I mean, this is that inner war that happens in nanoseconds.
But immediately the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said, "Bob, this man knows something about my nature and character you know nothing about. My grace is more than enough for you." And that began my journey to His throne room, you see, for His enablement, His empowerment for my life, for His realities to become mine. That began my journey because I recognized how deficient I was in love. And He is love.
Laura Dugger: That is just incredible to hear you both even just sum it up that way. And clearly, you are such a wise and encouraging couple. [00:46:59]
Audrey Meisner: Aw, I love it. That is our heart. We sure want to love people, that's for sure.
Bob Meisner: I know there's people that listen. And it's not that your marriage has to be on the rocks for this to be applicable. But you get to know the God who designed you, who has dreamed you up. And no matter where you are, I can say with absolute confidence in Jesus, your best days really are ahead of you.
Audrey Meisner: And your Redeemer lives because I didn't think there was a redemption to this story. But I think of the people who have had an abortion that are listening and it hurts. I think of the people who have had a divorce that are listening and saying, we didn't know this when I got a divorce. And I didn't know what kind of painful road I was going to go on and stuff.
And I just want to say to those people, whatever has happened, yes, those are the facts of life, but even you get to draw a line in the sand today and just choose and decide to shout it from the housetops that your Redeemer lives. [00:48:02] I speak it right to your heart. Your Redeemer lives, you guys. I know you don't see the happy ending to the story, but there's not... And maybe your story didn't end like ours, but there is redemption and there is future. There is hope just because Jesus is so creative. He can innovate a new plan and a new idea for your life that you could never have imagined.
Laura Dugger: Yes, and amen. Where can listeners go to gain even more encouragement from both of you?
Audrey Meisner: Our website is lovemarriedlife.com. I love that we have some free eBooks there because they're kind of some of our favorite subjects. Like My Personality Goals talks about how in our personal behavior... Bob and I are so different. Like Bob loves to do things right and I love to do things fast. So we're very different in our approach to everything.
Bob Meisner: But yet when we got married, we thought we were identical.
Audrey Meisner: Yeah, right. So we've really developed free eBook called My Personality Goals. [00:49:04] We have developed just helping people understand that when you overuse your strength, that's when they become your blind spots. But when you can understand your spouse, it just brings a lot of help.
So My Personality Goals, that's for singles or married. And My Communication Goals, those two free eBooks, I encourage people to download those. And then listen to our podcast called All About Relationships.
Also, a lot of couples come for deep, intense, where they come to our house in Phoenix for three days and we do an intensive. They stay at a hotel, but we spend eight hours a day and we do a three-day intensive with couples.
This has been my favorite part of ministry because we see couples... they might be some couples just to come to learn how to minister to others. But in three days to invest eight hours a day to get to the deep-rooted destructive cycles that keep you going around and around and around the same laps. We get to help you break those. [00:49:58] And that's probably one of my favorite things about what we do.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I always like to remind listeners, if this is your first time with us, we will always link to all of these resources.
Audrey Meisner: Oh, thank you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Yes. We want to make it very easy for you to find Bob and Audrey. And you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce-
Audrey Meisner: Yes! I love it. So "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for each of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Audrey Meisner: Oh, I love this question. I think our savvy sauce together is that we are so different and we refuse to see each other as our problem. But I see Bob as my gift. And then we can sing a song together when we are in harmony.
Bob Meisner: Behavioral modification, it will only take you so far. We really work towards a heart transformation. Because it's from the heart that emerges all the boundaries of our life. [00:51:00] In other words, every sense of limitation that we experience, it really does flow from the heart.
And we can spend an entire lifetime focusing on the problems or the limitations that we perceive that are outside of our influence. But in reality, these limitations are based on what I believe about myself in my heart to be true, whether that be good or bad.
Proverbs 4:23 says, "Guard your heart above all else." And so I want to live transformed. It's a great feeling to live clean, you know, tailor your behavior. You know, boy, am I ever being good. It gets to be exhausting. When people oftentimes read a book, attend a marriage seminar, it's like they walk away with another 10 things to do, another list. It only works as long as you're working the list. I want to live free.
Audrey Meisner: Is that your savvy sauce, Bob? [00:52:01]
Bob Meisner: Different than living clean. I want to live free. And that's where we experience effortless victory through a transformed heart.
Audrey Meisner: Because life becomes easy and fun. We believe that marriage is fun.
Bob Meisner: Yeah, fun.
Audrey Meisner: There is our savvy sauce.
Bob Meisner: Some people think it's hard. No, no, it's intentional.
Audrey Meisner: I get that.
Bob Meisner: But boy, it is fun.
Audrey Meisner: So in a word, our savvy sauce is marriage is fun.
Bob Meisner: Okay.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Well, Bob and Audrey, your story just does not cease to amaze me because it does point to a loving and patient and gracious Heavenly Father who is in the ministry of reconciliation. So thank you for sharing your story with all of us today.
Bob Meisner: Thank you.
Audrey Meisner: Thank you for just finding us and for loving us and inviting us. We feel really loved by you. Thank you, Laura.
Bob Meisner: Thank you.
Audrey Meisner: We thank you for all your amazing listeners.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. [00:53:00] Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:54:02]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:55:04]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:56:00] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 21, 2020
Monday Sep 21, 2020
112. Stewardship as the Daughter of Chick-fil-A Founders with Trudy Cathy White
**Transcription Below**
Acts 20:35(b) NIV “remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive,’"
Trudy Cathy White is a native Georgian and the only daughter of Jeannette and S. Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, Inc. Trudy has held various roles within Chick-fil-A, including that of a restaurant operator, and she and her husband, John, served as missionaries in Brazil and later they co-founded Lifeshape and Impact 360 Institute. She is a speaker, author, dedicated wife, mother of four, and grandmother of 15.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Trudy Cathy White:
A Quiet Strength: The Life and Legacy of Jeannette M. Cathy
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries offers a biblical solution to healthcare, connecting you to other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
Trudy Cathy White is an incredible woman, and I'm excited for this conversation as she's going to share stories and little snippets of wise advice as we reflect on the life of her parents who founded Chick-fil-A. But we are going to especially focus on her mom, Jeannette Cathy, and her contribution to the world.
Trudy is a gifted author, and her most recent book is titled A Quiet Strength: The Life and Legacy of Jeannette M. Cathy.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Trudy.
Trudy Cathy White: Thank you. It's an honor to be here with you today, Laura. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start here. Will you first tell us a bit more about yourself?
Trudy Cathy White: Certainly. I am the only girl in my family. I have two older brothers, married now with four grown children, and 15 grandchildren, if you can imagine. The Lord has taken me from living in the States to being a missionary in Brazil with our family. Two of our youngest children were born there.
I am a person who is passionate about people. I love investing in relationships. And really honored to have this time with you today here.
Laura Dugger: Well, I feel the same way. I personally believe that heroes are so important because they give us real-life examples of imperfect people who still have these high standards that inspire us to grow. And I think it's obvious that your mom is one of your heroes. So will you share more of her story in hopes that we can catch a glimpse of her powerful contribution to the world? [00:02:16]
Trudy Cathy White: Yeah, most definitely. You know, a lot of people know about my dad, Truett Cathy. He's the founder of Chick-fil-A. But my mom, Jeannette Cathy, is a person that very few people had a chance to know. The reason I've written the book, A Quiet Strength, is because I want people to know her story.
Here's something about her. She was raised by a single mom. She was an only child. Her earthly father walked down on her when she was just a baby in arms. So she actually never, ever met her earthly father. But when she was about five years old, a friend introduced her to her heavenly Father and introduced her to some scripture that says, If you will believe and receive, you can become a child of God.
My mother was just elated to know that she actually could have a father, and her father would be her perfect father for the rest of her life. So if she were doing this interview today with you, Laura, she would say, don't feel sorry for me because I've had a perfect Father my whole life. And that just ignited her walk with the Lord and her intimacy that she learned scripture. [00:03:21] She had a passion for wanting to know God's word, to memorize it.
I just so looked up to her because she just dedicated her life to being a follower of Christ. She was a gifted dancer. She loved to sing. She was a great vocalist. She learned to play the trumpet. When she was 65 years of age, she decided she'd love to paint. And so she went and bought some canvas and oils. She's a self-taught artist at the age of 65.
I like to remind people that when she was 80, she got her first computer. I think she was almost 90 years old when she decided everybody was using these things called iPhones, and she had a flip phone, and she decided she wanted to get her iPhone and learn how to use it. So she was a lifelong learner.
So as a person that I looked up to, I realized that, man, she has taught me an awful lot just by the way she's lived her life.
Laura Dugger: Oh, certainly. And I just appreciate you sharing and even elaborating on all of these stories in your book. [00:04:21] I found it to be an incredible book that was easy to read and very inspiring. But I noticed through reading your book that you do come from a line of faithful women who stepped up to care for their families. And sometimes they even shouldered the responsibility entirely. So how has that impacted you?
Trudy Cathy White: I think what I saw in my mother's life was this kind of can-do attitude, so to speak. She would often tell me or my father or any of our family members when we were disappointed or discouraged about something. She would say, "You know, you can get through this with God or you can do this with God."
And I just so appreciated that kind of outlook to life. She always was seeing the positive side of things, even though life wasn't always easy for her. She had her own share of challenges. We grew up south of Atlanta in a small farm, really, really in the country. She couldn't get a lot of help to take care of things around the house. [00:05:24] She would learn how to fix things herself just because she couldn't get anybody else to do it. She just approached life with such a positive attitude.
I remember for myself when we were living in Brazil, we had to learn to speak Portuguese, which is not an easy language. As an adult, it's hard to learn any other language anyway if you've never tried it before. But I remember specifically a situation where I was done. I just felt like I could not learn this language. I was very angry with God for the fact that he took us to another country, I was struggling really hard with communicating with people. And I just said, "Lord, I can't do this anymore."
And I paused. I didn't hear an audible voice, but I knew that God was speaking to me. And what He told me at that moment was, "Trudy, you are right where I want you to be. I want you to realize that you don't live your life on your own. You're going to have to depend on Me. And I'm glad you've got to feel like you can't do this because I can do this through you." [00:06:24]
It just took me back to my mother's attitude and realizing the fact that, you know, you can with God. The Bible says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So recognizing that my mother's strength came from her walk with the Lord and her can-do attitude about life really had a lot to do with that relationship with the Lord.
Laura Dugger: I love hearing that personal example. I think that's inspiring, especially as a parent, when I think probably so many of us just feel inadequate in this role. It sounds like you're just encouraging us, just turn toward your heavenly Father because we can do it through Him.
Trudy Cathy White: Exactly right.
Laura Dugger: Well, one example that you give of your mom's character comes from page 28, where you write, "College wasn't that unusual for women in the early 1940s, but seminary was a different matter. Her boldness in leaving home and heading to New Orleans all alone to study God's word and prepare for ministry service has always been a powerful encouragement to me." [00:07:27] So, Trudy, will you just say more about that?
Trudy Cathy White: You know, when you think about my mother's life, when she graduated from high school, she wanted so much to continue her education. She got her a full time job working in downtown Atlanta. But a group of ladies in her local church knew of her desire to go on to college and even to take some classes at seminary, what she really wanted to do. And they pulled their resources together to allow her to be able to go to school.
So a few years after high school graduation, she found herself going to college, taking classes, and then she was able to go to seminary and take some courses. She never completely finished her time, but... that was back in the 40s, early 40s and that's very unheard of for women to be at seminary in those times.
And I'll tell you, you know, my mom oftentimes reminded me that when she was at seminary, she just figured she probably would marry someone who was going into the ministry, probably somebody who was going to be a pastor of a church. [00:08:27] But she didn't, as we all know. She ended up marrying this man that invented what we know of today as Chick-fil-A, somebody that was in the restaurant business.
But it's very interesting because when I look at my mom and dad's life, I realize that my dad often said that he saw his work as his ministry. And when we serve others, whether it's food or whatever it is, you know, we are able to be a minister to other people that meet their needs.
So I went on to be a missionary. I don't think my mother was really surprised about that. Perhaps some of the things that she had dreamed that she might do someday actually came to fruition through my own life.
But later, after my mom had passed away, I was cleaning through their things, and I found a piece of paper where my mother had written down some things about me. And she said, "Trudy loves children. She may be a pediatrician or maybe a missionary somewhere."
That was pretty cool to find that piece of paper and realize that the power of influence that mother had had over my life. [00:09:28] I think she prayed an awful lot for me. And she always wanted her children to be obedient to God. So I'm thankful for her encouragement in that way.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is a powerful story just to think of a mother's influence. And are there any other examples of choices that you've made due to her example with her boldness and her strong work ethic?
Trudy Cathy White: You know, I think that when I think about her boldness, I think she has instilled in me a sense of confidence. Not so much confidence in myself, but confidence in who made me.
When we were little growing up, my mother had this tradition. She would stand at the back door, and as we would head out to school, my brothers and I, she would say, "Now remember who you are and whose you are." And when she would speak that over us as teenagers, you know, I thought, oh, yeah, whatever, mother.
But as I got older, I realized that life wasn't about me, that my identity was not wrapped up in who I was related to or maybe even what I did or even what I had. [00:10:35] But my identity was wrapped up in my relationship with Christ and what He says about me and who I am.
So I think that mother transferred that sense of boldness and confidence into my life through just little things that she would say like that. But more than anything was through just the example of how she lived her life. Because, Laura, I like to remind parents that raising children, it's not an easy task by any means. It's a lot of hard work.
Oftentimes we get concerned because we kind of feel like our children just aren't listening to us. We feel like we say the same thing over and over and over to them. And we kind of wonder, are they ever going to get it, you know?
But I like to remind parents that actually don't be so concerned that your children aren't listening to you. But be a bit concerned that they're watching you all the time. Are you living out the kind of life you would like to see them live at some point in their life?
Now, my mom wasn't a perfect mother. I don't want anybody to think that. [00:11:34] But she certainly was intentional in how she lived her life in a way that set up a great role model for me and a great example for me, both as a person, as a married couple, and in how to raise a family.
Laura Dugger: That's a wonderful reminder and a challenge to each of us. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: I want to say thank you to today's sponsor, Samaritan Ministries. God's love is steadfast and true. He cares for us as we are called to care for one another. Samaritan Ministries connects hundreds of thousands of Christians across the nation who care for one another through prayer, encouragement, and financial support for medical needs.
As a healthcare-sharing ministry, there are no networks. It is affordable, and you can join today. Each month, Samaritan members send their financial gift directly to a member with a medical need, pray, and send a note of encouragement, all while reflecting God's love and care. [00:12:39]
Members like Kelsey, who experienced a life-altering moment when she was diagnosed with breast cancer, while she had many decisions to make, how she was going to pay for treatment was not one of them. Kelsey had the freedom to choose the type of treatment she desired. And the notes she received from other members encouraged her when she needed it the most.
You too can find comfort in the prayers, encouragement, and direct financial support from other members who strive to minister to all aspects of your healthcare need, spiritual, emotional, physical, and financial. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: I think this is kind of a big question, so I'll try and provide a lot of context. I think that many people can relate to this topic of feeling torn between mothering and their vocational calling, if their calling requires them to take some time away from their children. [00:13:40] And I just remember reading that you always thought you would be a stay-at-home mom, but God kind of had a different idea.
So what did that wrestling look like as you left your young kids in others' care sometimes to go with your husband for these language development classes while you lived in Brazil?
Trudy Cathy White: I think any time that I felt I had to leave my children to go do something outside of the home, work-related or studying or whatever, I remember kind of being afraid to leave my children with other people. I didn't think they could do as good a job as I was doing. And I was somewhat fearful.
But I also remember when we were living in Brazil, there was a sweet little lady that came and watched my children while I spent my time in language school in the afternoon, and she didn't speak any English either. So that kind of compounded the fears because not only, you know, I couldn't communicate really well with her, and my children were little, and I didn't know how they were going to kind of communicate.
But you know what I found through the years is watching for how God affirms our steps and things that we're doing and how He just kind of... maybe you would call them like God winks. [00:14:49] He just lets you know, "Hey, I'm in the middle of this with you."
Because I remember spending some time with this lady who was caring for my children and helping her to know how to care for them. And then one particular afternoon, I wanted her to know I love to sing to my children when I'm around them. I just kind of broke out singing because I did not say that to her since she couldn't understand English. So I started singing Jesus loves me.
And I got about halfway through the song and she joined with me singing Jesus Loves Me. And we finished that song singing together. I was singing in English and she was singing in Portuguese. But through that singing together, I realized that she, too, was a believer. She was a follower of Christ. She had a beautiful smile that radiated from her after we finished singing that song.
And it was almost as if God was saying, "Trudy, I love you and I love this lady named [Cleoza?], and I'm going to help you. I'm going to make sure your children are taken care of."
So I would want to encourage parents who have to work maybe outside the home or do things that it's just so very important that you realize that when you ask God to be a part of even your little details and concerns of life, he will be. [00:15:58] He wants to be intricately involved in our lives.
I'll even say this, that we talk a lot about finding the right balance, the balance between your family and the balance between work. And I relate that more to, you know, if you're riding a bicycle, you have to kind of lean sometimes to the left and sometimes to the right to kind of keep that bicycle upright.
And I think when we're going through life, this is the way I have found that sometimes I have to lean into my family a little bit more because there are certain seasons where they need me more. There are other times when I can lean the other way a little bit more, in my work focus, with my staff, or with my responsibilities, whatever that is. And it's not like I just stay leaning one way or the other. It's just kind of this back and forth.
The most important thing is understanding your priorities. If you know what your priorities are, then you can get that balance in that really, really good.
Laura Dugger: I love that visual. I think that's much more realistic than a perfect balance, which is not achievable. [00:16:58] I like that word "to know your priorities". So kind of putting you on the spot, do you have some of your top priorities that you could share with us to make us start thinking of our own?
Trudy Cathy White: Yeah. You know, you can turn these as parties or even as values. I like to ask people this question. I say, "What matters to you most?" You know, sometimes if you ask yourself that, what matters to me the most? And I would say that they're really...
My husband and I have kind of over the years focused on five core values or five priorities in our life. One is our faith. It becomes the filter for all of our decision-making. The second is our family. We value family. We value time with our family. So we make that a priority.
Next I would say is integrity. That we are people of our word, that people can count on us when we say we're going to do things. The next two, the last two would be generosity. That we're generous with what we have. And last would be gratitude, that we are people who are grateful for things. [00:17:58]
So faith, family, integrity, gratitude, and generosity are the five. To me, I just try to make sure that I'm balancing those from time to time. Those are core to what's important to me. Everything else comes out of those five things.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And just to witness you and your greater family as leaders at Chick-fil-A, I just want to affirm, Trudy, you're living those out so well. I think we could have guessed those without even hearing it from you. So that's incredible that you're doing what you set out or intended to do.
Trudy Cathy White: I appreciate that.
Laura Dugger: When you and your husband came up with those five, what did that look like? Was that early on in marriage?
Trudy Cathy White: You know, we weren't challenged as young couples to really identify them and pin them. It really came through several years that we began to look back on experiences that we had and how we invest in our time and what was important to us. [00:18:59]
Honestly, Laura, when our children became young adults, they're married, we got together with them as newlyweds, well, somewhat newlyweds, and we gathered them together and we challenged them with this idea. Start now, early in your marriage, and define as a couple for yourselves what are going to be your values, what are going to be the things you're really going to focus and be intentional about.
They went way beyond what we had thought about. They not only worked hard at getting those and understanding what those would be, but then they, each one of them in their own unique way, either had a plaque printed or words put somewhere.
But you can walk in any one of their homes and their values are posted on their wall somewhere. And they have put those up because they want their children to understand them and know what they are. It's a really visual reminder to them, This is what we're declaring as a family is important to us. So it's a great accountability that's right there in front of them. [00:19:59]
So our children, as a gift to us in just recent years, they gave us those five words, and I said, and they gave them to us, and we've got them hanging in our kitchen. So they're a reminder to us as well as anybody else that comes in. They're great conversation pieces.
People come in our home and say, "Oh, tell me about those five words," you know? And so we said, well, these are the things that we've declared that are important to us. And we try to make sure that we are focusing well on these things.
Laura Dugger: I love that. I also find it just such a comfort to hear about your relationship with your adult children. So for those of us who are a little bit further behind, I would love for you just to encourage us, especially those who are working, whether that's part-time or they have this little side hustle or full-time job. What would your adult children say now as they look back? Were they ever resentful that you worked, or what does that look like for your family?
Trudy Cathy White: I think what I learned when I was growing up I've tried to implement with my children. [00:21:00] And this is what that looked like. When I was young, my mother and dad always tried to include us in things from time to time.
Of course, my dad had a restaurant, and when we were little, we could go and hang out at the restaurant. But a lot of times, my dad would go and take some food to a family, and he would take us along with him. So as much as they were able to, we were included in some things that happened that allowed us to see them almost on the job interacting with other people. I learned so much from my parents that way.
So with our own children, of course, being missionaries, a big part of their life was growing up in another country, and so much of what we did, we just took the children with us. Once we got through at language school, they were a part of it. But I think you even can bring your work life into your home with your children.
Now, my dad did this just regularly. He would come home, and some days were really hard days, and maybe our tendency as parents is to not share that with children. But I remember my dad would share almost to the point he would be crying sometimes. [00:22:00] He would be so discouraged about something that had happened. Maybe an employee stole from them, or dishonesty would happen and my dad really trusted someone about something.
My dad would share his challenges, my mother would take us to Scripture and read Scripture to us, and then we would pray together as a family for my dad, who was having a bad day. So as I grew up, I realized when I became an adult, I thought, Mm, I have a few bad days every once in a while. Then I realized, well, that's not unusual. I remember my parents had bad days.
So we've tried to do that with our own children, that when we have tough times, we try to share it with them and help them to understand, Hey, I know you have bad days, but I want you to know mom and dad have bad days sometimes too. You don't have to give them all the details, but you certainly can bring them into that so that they can see how you work through the challenges.
So I don't think my children would ever say that they're resentful for the time we spent investing in other people, because we've tried to be good about investing in them as well. [00:23:02]
Laura Dugger: That is really well said. I'd also love to hear, what is the one way that Jeannette Cathy parented you that had the most impact?
Trudy Cathy White: This is such a hard question when you think of one thing. But I think I would define my mom as my number one encourager. She just believed in me and always encouraged me. And sometimes I think, did she really believe that much? I'm sure I discouraged her and I'm sure that I disappointed her from time to time but somehow she was able to always bring it back to let me know, "Trudy, you know, I do believe in you. You're going to be able to do this and you're going to do it well."
And I would have maybe some really off-the-wall ideas or thoughts or dreams, and she always seemed to affirm those. I'm not even sure she totally agreed with it, but she just tried to affirm me in thinking forward and believing in myself before I even often believed in myself. [00:24:01]
Now, I was 19 years old when I became a Chick-fil-A operator, which I've raised children. And when they were 19, I'm not sure I would entrust a restaurant to them at that time. But my parents did. They said, "If you really think you want to do this, then, okay, we'll let you do it."
I was 19 years old. I had just finished my freshman year in college. I moved out of the dorm, got an apartment right near a shopping mall, which is where the Chick-fil-A store was going to open, and I was a Chick-fil-A operator for a year. My parents wanted me to go back to college and finish school. But it was because my parents kind of believed in me that motivated me to try something that I had never done before.
So even as an older adult, I remember having the opportunity to become a director for Winshape Camps, which is a camping program that we offer through our family foundation. And for 13 years, I was the director for camps. And I had never been a camp director before.
But I remember specifically my mother saying, "Well, why wouldn't you do this? You were a camper when you were a little girl, and you know how much camp meant to you. You could be a great camp director." [00:25:05]
So my mother believed in me. And I think parents need to do that with their children. Just believe in them and encourage them as much as you possibly can.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's so good. Just personally, I cannot hear that enough. Just that reminder to be encouraging. Going back a little bit in your story and tying this in, it was before the whole coronavirus that a big group from Chick-fil-A was together earlier this year. My husband and I had the pleasure of sitting at your table, and I remember a story from that year as a Chick-fil-A owner. So is there any personal story that you would like to share of what happened that year?
Trudy Cathy White: Well, probably the most common one that I would tell is the fact that a gentleman came in and applied for a job to work there in the store as a team member and I decided I would hire him, not because I knew anything about him, but because he was good looking. [00:26:03]
And so I hired him to come and work with me, and then I realized that the more he worked around the store, the more attracted I was to him. I found out he was a college student in the local area there. And next thing I knew, I got really nervous because I was afraid that he was going to be meeting a lot of girls on campus and be able to go out with them.
Then I realized that I actually was his boss. I was making out his hours. I was determining when he would be at work in the store and I decided he didn't have to be free on Friday nights or Saturday nights to go out with other girls.
Actually, the strategy worked because he fell in love with me as well and we've been married now for 40, almost 44 years. So the Lord blessed that. That was the biggest takeaway from my one year as a Chick-fil-A operator is I got my lifelong partner.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I absolutely love that story. Now as we fast forward and then think of you two together parenting, what did you apply to your own parenting that you had learned from your mom? [00:27:03]
Trudy Cathy White: I would say that four-letter word, pray. Pray, pray, pray for your children. You know, we often find that we're expecting, you know, we begin to pray for them. Then when they come into this world, we pray for them. As they are toddlers and they are in preschool, we pray for the… and it's endless. You just have to pray, pray, pray for your children. I learned that from my mom. She was quite the prayer warrior in our family.
Another thing I think is... this is a strange thing, but I read this years ago. Someone said, you know, one of the things you ought to pray for your children, pray they get caught when they do wrong. I know that sounds a little weird kind of to pray that way. But as our children do grow up, they are always under our wings and in our care where we see them. They're going to school. They're meeting friends. They're out doing things and they're making choices on their own when they come preteens and teenage.
And to pray that they will get caught when they do things wrong, you know, that's what you want, because you don't want them to develop bad habits in their life. [00:28:03] And so they can get caught early on in life if they do things wrong, that's really a good thing.
I think just my parents reminded us often we weren't perfect children. You won't have two perfect children. They're just not perfect. And you have to realize that they're going to be ups and downs in the parenting seasons of life.
We have our own share of those as well, stories of our children growing up and decisions maybe that they made that we would not have wanted them to make. There have been consequences to that. But they have always stayed connected to us as their parents. And we just appreciate that so very much.
So don't expect your children to be perfect. You probably already found that out if you're listening today. But recognize the fact that you can pray for them daily and want them to follow the Lord. Because at the end of the day, that's really what you want. You want them to be obedient to God and to be a blessing to other people.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that is for sure. That we'll have no greater joy than to hear that our children are walking with the Lord and walking in truth. [00:29:03]
Some of you have asked how to find specific books or resources we've mentioned in one of our previous episodes. That's why I'm excited to let you know about our Resources tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can click on our tab called "Resources". There you will find all of the resources mentioned from every episode. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you're actually supporting our work at The Savvy Sauce.
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Will you share the story of how your mom played an inadvertent role in actually creating the chicken sandwich that is now the famous chicken sandwich served at Chick-fil-A?
Trudy Cathy White: Sure. You know, our family has given my mother the title Chief Supporting Officer. [00:30:06] We kind of feel like that was her role all these years with my dad's life and in growing the family business. Everybody needs somebody on their side supporting them. And that's what my mother was for my dad.
My dad said all he did was take a piece of chicken and put it between the buttered bun. But my mother, now she did a lot of things. He would just brag on her all the time. She was just amazing, the support that she would give to him.
But mother and dad met when they were eight years old. They lived just down the street from each other. But as my dad would say, they didn't get married then. In fact, it was later in life that they got married.
My dad was 25 years old and single when he opened his first restaurant. Three years later, he got married to my mom and mother immediately started supporting him by being a waitress in the restaurant. I've got some stories in my book, A Quiet Street, that talk about the impact that my mom had on employees that my dad had early on in that restaurant. So they'll need to get the book to read about that. [00:31:08]
But once children came along, my mother was very content in taking on that role of caring for us while my dad worked such long, long hours. But I love this saying that says that everything that is seen is the result of the unseen. So when people go to Chick-fil-A and eat it, and when you read stories and you hear about my dad's life, you need to know that those are the things that are seen. But the unseen is super, super powerful. And that is who my mom was.
I love the fact that she offered relentless support to my dad through the years, praying for him, caring for him, encouraging him. Any one of us in our family would say today, Chick-fil-A would not be what it is today had it not been for the support of my mom.
Laura Dugger: And she was just wonderful at being that supportive role, which is so necessary, like you said. We won't even get to scratch the surface on all the stories in the book, some that definitely had me tearing up and some that had me laughing out loud. [00:32:13] So we won't get to all of those. We'll have to read it.
But just one thing I found so ironic is that when your mom, like you said, she was an amazing vocalist. So at a young age, when she would be asked to sing at different churches, they only could afford to pay in chickens, which then the chickens went back to your dad's house because... you have to read the story to get all the details. But that's where your dad learned how to cook chicken right alongside his mom. Isn't that right?
Trudy Cathy White: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Because my mother, because she's a single mom, she didn't get to go all very many places. But my dad's family was right down the road. My dad had a lot of brothers and sisters and his older sister, she got married to a minister and they would go to churches and they would take my mother along to sing at the churches. That's right. And they got chickens as the kind of payment for them being there. And those chickens made it right back to the home, to my dad's home, just as you shared the story. [00:33:17]
So I do share that in my book. It's a very intriguing story, almost unbelievable, the connections there. You feel like the Lord was in the middle of all this way from the beginning.
Laura Dugger: Oh, he certainly was. And I just love how even well before the age of 10, he was using your mom's gifts with your dad's gifts and putting it together. And Chick-fil-A has just blessed countless amount of people.
But your mom also had this wonderful ministry with Sunday school girls. And I would love for you to elaborate on the three Ms your mom taught her Sunday school girls.
Trudy Cathy White: Yes. Mother realized that when you're working with teenagers, one of the biggest things they complain about sometimes is the fact that they never get to make any decisions for themselves. It seems like their parents are always telling them what to do, what not to do and making decisions for them.
So my mother wanted these young girls to realize that there are three decisions that are the most important decisions you're going to make and you get to make them. [00:34:18] Your parents will not be making these decisions for you. And they all start with the letter M.
The first one is that, girls, you're going to get to choose who your master is going to be in life, who is really going to be in control of your life. You get to choose your master.
The second would be your mate. That, you know, you're going to grow up and you're going to get to choose who you're going to marry for the rest of your life. So you get to choose your mate.
And the third would be your mission. You know, what do you want to do in life? What will be your career? What will your mission look like?
And you get to choose all of those, your master, your mate, and your mission.
And mother would remind them and said, "You know, these are really, really big, big decisions. So don't worry that your mom and dad are making all the little decisions for you, but get yourself ready because one day you're going to have to make these decisions for yourself. And you don't want to make the wrong decisions. You want to make the right decision when it comes to that."
So she invested in them to know God's word, to study it. And she spent a lot of time with them, just helping them navigate their teenage years. [00:35:20]
I write about this in my book. And actually, when I was initially writing the book, I was thinking, you know, "I know a lot of stories about my mother, but there are a lot of other people that have stories probably that I've never heard before." One of the 12 people that we interviewed for this particular book happened to be one of the girls who was in my mom's Sunday school class, who's now grown and has her own children. And she gladly shared the stories about her time of sitting at church studying the Bible with my mom. It's a wonderful chapter in the book.
Laura Dugger: It definitely is. I just can't recommend the book high enough. We will be doing a giveaway as well on social media. I just hope that you all check it out.
But I find examples of generosity, not only to be inspiring, but also to be contagious. And the couple who comes to mind when I think of generosity is Truett and Jeannette Cathy. So how did you personally witness your parents' generosity? [00:36:23]
Trudy Cathy White: I think my earliest memory of my mother and dad and knowing that they were generous with what God had given us was when we would load up in the car and head to church. My mother would be in the front seat on the passenger side, of course, and she would pull out her checkbook. And that was when she wrote their tithe check that was going to go to the church.
They were faithful every week to give their tithe to the church. Mother was adamant about that. So I saw it first of all, just in how they managed their finances, which is really important for all of us to understand that we are to be stewards of the things that God has given us.
My parents taught us that God owns it all and that we simply need to steward it or manage it well for the Lord. So I love to remind people, you know, you need to manage what's in your hand, but you need to give away as much as you can.
So when we think about this idea of generosity and how it was modeled for me through my parents, I realized that they were generous, not just with their finances, but there are some other things that we all have that we have to learn how to be generous with. [00:37:30]
One is our time. We all have 24 hours in a day, but we get to choose how we're going to spend our time. So being generous with your time, giving it to other people is very important. I learned that from my parents.
The Bible talks a lot about the fact that, you know, we've been given talents to use of skills and abilities that we have. And are we stewarding those well being generous with our talents? If you do something really well, are you using it and are you doing it to be able to using it to help others? And then of course, our treasure, the finances, the resources that we have.
I think the last thing that I like to add that I've noticed in my parents that I've tried to live out before my children as well, is we all have the opportunity for influence and we have to be generous with our influence. We all can influence people around us and we need to just be aware that we can do it and be generous about it.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I appreciate that generosity so much. Then even as it's one of your five core values, what are some other ways that you and your husband have carried this forward with your family to be generous with your time, talents, treasures? [00:38:40]
Trudy Cathy White: I think some of the ways that we've been able to do that is simply by looking out for the needs of other people around us. My parents told me this when I was a teenager. I think one of the first times I remember hearing it was they told me this. They said, "Trudy, if you'll help other people get what they want in life, you'll eventually get what you want out of life."
What I have grown to understand that to mean is that life is not about me. Everything doesn't revolve around me. In fact, the more I spend time worrying and thinking about myself, the worse off I am. But if I can put my focus on other people around me and what are their needs and how can I celebrate them well, then there's something that's very rewarding and gratifying in that.
In fact, Jesus said, it's better to give than to receive. So if we can give by identifying the needs of other people and see how we can help them, it just kind of gets our mind off of maybe some of the problems and challenges that we have. [00:39:44] So I would say if you're having a bad day today, go find somebody you can help and do something for them. It's a great way to be generous. It's a great way to put your focus on somebody else, and you'll find that you'll get a lot out of life when you do that.
Laura Dugger: I just say amen to all of that. Just another fun question as we think back about your parents. How do you think they managed to stay like newlyweds forever?
Trudy Cathy White: Such a great question. I think, number one, they were just committed to each other. They weren't a perfect couple. They had issues. They had problems they had to work through. They had disagreements. They didn't always see eye to eye on things. And so that's to be expected.
But they were very committed to their marriage. They were committed to work through any challenges that they faced. I think mother decided early on she couldn't change dad, and dad wasn't going to try to change her. They just kind of tried to accept each other the way they were. And that's very important for us to do.
I think the biggest thing that I saw is just this idea of being able to manage expectations well. [00:40:46] In fact, I'll tell you this little story. I remember picking my mother up, taking her to the doctor. She was in her 70s, and she got in the car, and you could tell she had been doing some really serious thinking. And she said to me, "Trudy, I've decided something significant today."
And I said, "What's that, mom?" She said, "I've decided to have no more expectations for your dad." I said, "Well, tell me about that." She said, "Well, you know, I've had all these expectations." I think my mother felt that probably my dad would retire when he got to be 65. And, of course, there's no way he was going to stop work. He loved what he did. He never retired. He worked right up until the Lord took him home practically. A
I think my mother just kind of felt like at some point in time, maybe things are going to change and be a little different. He won't be as busy. He'll have more time around the house. But that never happened. And so she just decided, you know, I'm not going to have any more expectations.
After she had passed away, I found where on an index card she had written down those very words. It said, "Have no expectations. None whatsoever." [00:41:49] And she underlined the "whatsoever" part. So none whatsoever. And I thought, what an amazing lady she was. She decided to have no more expectations on her husband.
So I have expectations for John, but I've tried to manage those really, really well. I just appreciate the commitment and the way they model their marriage before us.
Laura Dugger: I also loved watching their marriage and just their little sense of humor with each other and the tenderness. But there's one more quote I want to highlight about your mom. And it's from page 61 where you write, "and when she wasn't pouring scripture into herself, she was pouring it out to others." And I just thought, wow, I want to be like that. Just thinking of her as your model growing up, what are three things that you want to emulate from your mother's life?
Trudy Cathy White: One of the things I would say is that I want to be open to learn new things the way she was. [00:42:51] She never thought she was too old to memorize scripture. She never thought she was too old to learn new things, even technology. She was just a lifelong learner. So that would be one.
I think the second thing I would want to emulate from my mother's life is that I would be very faithful with the things that God has given me and grateful for them. Faithful in my marriage. Faithful as a mother and grandmother to children and grandchildren. Faithful as a friend. And faithful with my opportunity of influence. Just be faithful with whatever God's given me because I saw my mother do that and do it so well.
I think the third one would be to have the wisdom that my mom had would be something I would desire. And the wisdom that I saw in my mother was that she never gave up, but she knew when to quit, which is kind of interesting. [00:43:51]
She always had this philosophy, never give up. She'd always keep trying. But then she also said, "But you need to know when to quit." There were times in my mother's life that she had the wisdom to know that she needed to set something aside so that she could focus more attention on something else." And to have that kind of discernment and wisdom, I think those are the three things I would want to emulate in my mom's life.
Laura Dugger: Those are incredible. I just love this conversation and your resource just because personally, my mom is so precious to me and I think she's the best mom in the world. So reading your book was just kind of a warm experience to reminisce on some of the things that my mom and I have experienced together or conversations we're still having.
So if listeners do want to find this book, where would you direct them?
Trudy Cathy White: You can go to any of your local bookstores. You certainly can go to my website, TrudyCathyWhite.com. It'll be posted there. [00:44:52] And then there is a website, QuietStrengthBook.com, where you can list all the different places. It's obviously very easy to order on Amazon as well. So I'm grateful for all the places that are carrying the book and making it accessible to other people.
Laura Dugger: We didn't even mention this is not your first book. So that will be great to link to your website so listeners can learn more about you and can see other resources that you've written.
Trudy Cathy White: That's correct.
Laura Dugger: We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, Trudy, what is your savvy sauce?
Trudy Cathy White: This is the hardest question I'm telling you. I think if I had to leave a word of encouragement, my savvy sauce would be, write somebody and thank them today. I love to write handwritten notes. I just think it's something that's maybe a lost art that very few people do. I think they're treasured. But to just sit down and write somebody a note. I think it's a huge thing. [00:45:55] I would say clearly eat more chicken, right?
Laura Dugger: Yes to that. That's a perfect place to end for today. Trudy, just thank you again for all of those values that you've lived out even during this time together with your integrity and generosity of time and your gratitude. It just exudes from you. So I really enjoyed hosting you as my guest today.
Trudy Cathy White: Thank you, Laura, for having me. I'm just so honored. I appreciate it very much.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:46:58] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:48:00] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:49:02]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.