The Savvy Sauce

98 Financial Wisdom Amidst COVID-19 and Beyond with Natalie Taylor

98. Financial Wisdom Amidst COVID-19 and Beyond with Natalie Taylor

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 21:5 (ESV) “The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty."

 

Natalie Taylor is a Certified Financial Planner professional and Behavioral Financial Advisor. She's on a mission to help people cultivate a plan for their finances based on their values and goals. She helps people not only make progress, but find confidence, balance, and peace along the way.

 

Frequently quoted in major publications such as the Huffington Post, Forbes, Business Insider and Lifehacker, Natalie draws on over 15 years of comprehensive financial planning experience, 7 years in fintech, and a decade of professional speaking to share advice that works in real life, not just on paper.

 

After eight years in private practice, Natalie joined LearnVest, a fintech startup on a mission to make financial planning affordable and accessible to the masses. She moved on to be the Director of Financial Advice for LearnVest after they were acquired by a Fortune 100 company, and left in mid-2018 to start a fintech consulting and professional speaking business. She consults for companies like Ellevest and LearnLux, and continues to speak to audiences throughout the country, including speaking for the second year in a row at the annual Beachbody Summit in Indianapolis alongside James Clear and Rachel Hollis to a crowd of 20,000+ business owners.

 

As of February 2020, Natalie opened a financial planning practice to work one-on-one with clients again, returning to her first (career) love.

 

Natalie Taylor’s Financial Website

Sign up for Natalie’s E-mail List Here!

Connect with Natalie on Instagram @natalieanntaylormoney

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries is a biblical way to help your family and care for your brothers and sisters in Christ. Every month, Samaritan members help one another with their medical needs by praying for and providing financial support. You can learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.

 

My friend Natalie Taylor is a trustworthy financial expert and our returning guest today. She is not giving investment advice, but she is offering financial education and perspective. After listening to this episode, I expect for you to feel more hopeful and more equipped to know which financial step is best for you to take next. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Natalie. 

 

Natalie Taylor: Thanks so much. Good to be back. [00:01:17] 

 

Laura Dugger: It's so fun to have you on again. For anybody who missed our previous episodes, can you just remind us all who you are and what you spend your days doing?

 

Natalie Taylor: Sure. I'm Natalie Taylor. I'm a certified financial planner and behavioral financial advisor. I have two little boys, five and seven, and a husband, Ryan. We live in Santa Barbara, California. When I'm not with my kids, I spend time as a financial planner, working with people in their 30s and 40s, usually families who have kids and are juggling all the things from retirement to college to getting a house or paying down a mortgage and are trying to find the balance between all of those things and trying to enjoy life a little bit as well. 

 

Then I do some consulting work for financial technology companies, and I also speak professionally around the country.

 

Laura Dugger: And you are incredible at all of those roles. You're in California, like you said, and we're in Illinois, and currently, both of us, with COVID-19, are under a stay-at-home order. [00:02:19] So just wanting to check in, how is your family making this work as you're currently under this order?

 

Natalie Taylor: You know, it's kind of... I don't want to say it's funny because there's so many serious things right now. But this is my normal life. I work from home, I run my businesses from home, and every minute that I'm not working I'm with my kids and I'm parenting and taking care of all the household stuff. So I feel like if anything now my husband is also living my life as well. Instead of getting to go to the office and travel the world for his work, he's now working from home. 

 

And every minute that he's not working, he's doing childcare because we've been doing shifts of work between the two of us. We each get a five-hour chunk every day and then whoever's most behind, we kind of rock, paper, scissors and get to work in the evening. But yeah, I mean, it's certainly been different and we've certainly had to keep our spirits up and make some adjustments in all parts of life, juggling childcare and homeschool and work and all the things, and toilet paper, and trying to get my parents to take this all seriously. Because I don't know if you're in that boat, but man, it was a little hard to get them to take it seriously, but we finally got them there, so they're taking good care of themselves now. [00:03:29] 

 

Laura Dugger: I'm so thankful to hear that you guys are adjusting well. I know that this virus, obviously, like you said, it has a dark side, but what have been your most positive learnings from this unique season?

 

Natalie Taylor: You know, I think for me, it's just been a great opportunity to be able to serve my clients, serve the companies that I consult for, and to be able to serve my friends and my community. I think it's a really important time to focus on what's important. 

 

For us, I'm going to be honest, that's not homeschool. My kids are five and seven. They're in transitional kindergarten or pre-K and second grade. And we're learning things like how to ride a skateboard and how to ride a two-wheeler and how to vacuum and how to clean a toilet. Those are the things that we're focusing on and building some self-sufficiency since we're all home and we're all sharing the load a little bit more than normal. And I think those are going to be really positive things for my kids to understand. [00:04:29] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. And it's an out-of-the-box picture of it because I know a lot of us are feeling all of this pressure. Like you said, we're all becoming homeschooling parents. That's really helpful. One of my friends, Allison, encouraged us when this all started, just, what can we all be teaching our kids that they aren't learning at school? And it sounds like you and Ryan are doing exactly that.

 

Natalie Taylor: I love that. That's said so well. 

 

Laura Dugger: This entire conversation today is actually taking place as a result of your recent email. I just found it to be so grounding and helpful. I just want to encourage listeners, if you haven't already signed up for Natalie's email list, I would highly recommend you do that right away. We will link to all of that in the show notes, but Natalie, could you tell us right now what your website is where they can sign up for that? 

 

Natalie Taylor: Yeah. Thanks for that, Laura. My website is natalieanntaylor.com. [00:05:31] If you log in there, I have some blog posts there that hopefully are helpful. If you want to follow me on LinkedIn, I posted the client letter on LinkedIn. Business Insider actually published it as well. So that information is there. And I sent it out to my email list, which is, Laura, how you saw it. 

 

So if you want to sign up for my email list from my website, you certainly can. I'm not someone who emails everyone all the time. You might hear from me once a month. But I really email when I have something meaningful to share. And I don't when I don't. So that's how the email list works.

 

Laura Dugger: And yes, as the recipient of those emails, I would affirm everything you just said, and I find them all to be helpful. So as this most recent email related to finances, during this season with COVID-19, what do you think is a healthy financial perspective?

 

Natalie Taylor: I think a healthy financial perspective is sort of balanced between the big picture and the kind of micro things that we deal with every day. So I think it's important to understand and know enough about what's going on in the big picture of the economy and the healthcare system and the virus and all of those things. [00:06:46] 

 

But to filter that through to, Okay, what does that mean for me each day? And keeping in mind, is this a short-term thing or a long-term thing? Because a lot of the news we're hearing is sensationalized, and it really plays to some emotions and for many of us, some fears, some deep-rooted fears that maybe we weren't even aware of.

 

When we have the risk of taking away some everyday things we depend on, like being able to go to the market, being able to get toilet paper, being able to buy rubbing alcohol, all of these normal things, when those feel at risk, it can be really unsettling. So I think to have a healthy financial perspective, it's important to spend a little bit of time understanding what you're thinking and feeling before you think about taking any action.

 

Laura Dugger: Just from the people that you've been interacting with then, how have you witnessed the stress of the coronavirus affecting people's financial decisions? 

 

Natalie Taylor: I think some clients are worried that their income will decrease. [00:07:46] I've had some clients who have gone from making $100,000 a year to making nothing until we get out of this season. So I've definitely seen some stress and concern around income. 

 

I've also seen a lot of stress and concern around the stock market. You know, for those who follow it, you've seen that it's been dropping and it's been wild. There's been days that we've dropped 12% and days that we've been up 9%. So it's been totally wild and choppy. 

 

But when you're looking at your portfolio, those ups and downs mean I lost dollars, I gained dollars, I lost dollars, I lost more dollars. And we're wired to want to take action and to want to stop the bleeding, if you will, when we see that kind of thing. So I've seen clients really concerned about their portfolio and wondering, should I be taking action here? Is there something that I should be doing to protect myself?

 

Laura Dugger: That leads me to another question. So they may be asking what action to take. But because you are a financial expert, what other questions are people asking you right now? [00:08:49] 

 

Natalie Taylor: I think the question on sort of everybody's mind underlying all of it is what does this all mean for me? And am I going to be okay? I think the answer to that is a little bit complicated and it's different for everyone. You know, we are all gonna be impacted in different ways, some of us more than others because we're in industries that are more impacted or less impacted. 

 

So I think it's important not to take on the emotions or the behaviors of those that are in different situations and to really make sure that you focus on, Okay, let me think through what this actually means for me and how I can reasonably respond to take action on the things that I can control. And maybe, you know, make some changes in the realm of things that I can influence and how can I identify and then let go of the things that I cannot control.

 

Laura Dugger: That's such a great mindset. Would you mind taking it a step further and maybe sharing what that would look like for two different clients, one who is going to be significantly impacted financially through this and someone else who may not be? [00:09:54] But what would that look like to walk through this in a healthy way? 

 

Natalie Taylor: That's a great question. For a client who is going to be significantly impacted, I would say that's probably because their income is gonna be significantly impacted. And so to that client, I would say, let's do our best to estimate if any income will be coming in. Let's look at your next best places to get cash to supplement your income if your income drops. By that I mean, how much do you have an emergency savings that we can use to temporarily fill in for your income while your income is lower, or maybe your income is eliminated for a short period of time? So how much do we have an emergency fund and how long do we think that will last?

 

And then we want to make a list of the next best places to get money. So any other savings that you can use, any personal loans that might be available to you from family members where the emotional cost of the loan would not be greater than the value of the loan for you. [00:10:58] 

 

Then looking at, you know, if you have a home equity line of credit that you could potentially draw from. Home equity lines of credit are generally under five, six percent right now. So that is a reasonable place to be able to access money if you need it temporarily to support your family while your income is reduced or maybe even eliminated for a temporary period of time.

 

Then after that, we get into some places that have more cost to them, one of those being credit cards, because the interest rates are higher. And another one being Roth IRAs. So, a Roth IRA, you can always access your contributions. So the money that you put into your Roth IRA, you can always get that money out with no taxes and no penalties, which is a really great, flexible benefit of a Roth IRA.

 

We don't focus on it as financial planners because we want those dollars to be saved for retirement. But in times like these, if you need to access that money, it's good to know that you wouldn't have taxes or penalties when you did it. [00:12:01] 

 

The downside is that your Roth IRA is probably invested in the stock market. And the stock market has dropped 30 plus percent at this point in the last month or so. And so it's not a great time to sell investments.

 

So I would put that toward the bottom of the list of places to access cash, not because there would be taxes or penalties, but because it's not a great time to sell investments when the market has gone down. So for that client who's going to be significantly impacted, I think that's sort of the exercise that we would go through to say, okay, where are the next best places for cash if your income is going to be reduced or eliminated for a temporary period of time. 

 

And then the second place we would look is expenses. Whether the income has dropped already or whether you're anticipating that income will drop, I think it's important to adjust expenses as you can right away. So I would walk through your budget and think through what expenses can you change for the next, let's say, three to six months, to reduce expenses and reduce the pull on your income. [00:13:06] And if we're having to use savings, reduce the pull on savings. I wouldn't think of these expense changes as forever, but I would think about what can I reasonably do in the next three to six months?

 

If you're making extra payments on any debt, I know this is probably the first time you've heard a financial planner say it, but stop doing that. If you're saving towards retirement and you're anticipating your income is not going to be sufficient to cover expenses, then hold off on saving for retirement for a temporary period of time if there are expenses that you can adjust downward. 

 

And you know, some of us who pay for childcare or other services that aren't available right now, our expenses have been reduced for us. Whether we like it or not, they've been reduced for us. So try to capture those dollars and reduce expenses. 

 

So those are kind of the first two places I would say for somebody who's going to be significantly impacted. In terms of their investment portfolio, I would still recommend that they stay invested. [00:14:06] 

 

Laura Dugger: And now what about the other person who is still feeling a lot of emotions, even though they will not be financially impacted or they don't expect to be significantly financially impacted?

 

Natalie Taylor: I think for those that do not expect to be significantly impacted, it's still prudent to store up a little extra cash and to reduce expenses to some extent as you can. So, in terms of income, if you don't think your income will be impacted, that's great. I still think it's important that you maintain an emergency savings and if you can add to it in this season, I think it's a good idea to do it. Even if that means temporarily deferring dollars from debt reduction. 

 

Let's say you're making an extra $1,000 payment on a credit card that you're paying off or on your mortgage or something like that. I would say for the next three to six months, you might want to take those extra dollars and put them towards your emergency savings just in case. [00:15:04] 

 

If you don't expect your income to be impacted, I would still continue to save into your retirement accounts. I would keep that going, but I would maybe slow down on debt reduction to preserve some extra dollars. I would still take a look at your budget and see, are there some reasonable changes that we can make short term to find some extra dollars to pad our emergency savings? And again, I would say stay invested in your portfolio. 

 

The other thing I would say, if your income isn't going to be impacted, is interest rates have gone down. So there's been some really great opportunities to refinance debt. The biggest debt for most people is their mortgage. And so interest rates on 30-year mortgages got down to like 3.1% in the last six weeks, which is really just remarkably low.

 

Because so many people were excited to refinance when they dropped that low, there's been so much demand for refinance that actually mortgage rates have gone up a little bit. [00:16:06] But I would say keep an eye on mortgage rates. And if you do have a mortgage, especially if it's over maybe 3.75%, but definitely if it's over 4%, there could be a really great opportunity in the coming weeks to refinance your mortgage, especially if your income isn't impacted, and especially if you have a great credit score. 

 

You may be able to get in the very low 3%, or if you could do a 15-year, you might even be able to get under 3% on your mortgage. So it could be a great opportunity for you to take advantage of lower rates.

 

Laura Dugger: These are all such wise approaches. Are there any other questions that we can begin asking ourselves or any certain ideas that you think we should consider before impulsively reacting financially? 

 

Natalie Taylor: Yeah, that's a great question. When we're in times of stress, a couple things. So, one, stress doesn't usually compartmentalize itself. Stress usually seeps into all of our interactions. [00:17:08] So if we're stressed about work, we may end up blowing up at our kids because when we're stressed, we're stressed. We don't really compartmentalize stress to one area of our life, even if that one area is where it came from. 

 

So in times like these, I would be exceptionally aware of where your stress is coming from and what your level of stress is. For example, my husband will read an article that says, you know, there's a chance that within eight weeks, half of Americans will have the COVID-19 virus. And then he'll immediately start talking about, Well, should we make changes in our finances or should we not let our kids outside? 

 

And I think it's important to just recognize, "I'm right now from a stress perspective being influenced by this article I just read. Let me check in with myself and know that. Let me spend a little bit of time thinking and feeling through this to decide whether this is the right action to take or whether I'm actually just reacting to this stressful thing or this anxious spot in my heart that was triggered by this article I read or by this thing I heard." [00:18:10] 

 

So I think that's one thing is just to be self-aware and slow yourself down to go through the thinking and feeling before you get to the doing. So yeah, the first one is just recognizing that stress invades all the areas of our decision-making, and the second one, pausing and thinking and feeling before you start doing.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. And that was something that really stood out in your email that's so true. When we're stressed, we go into action mode and we jump to that doing. But I love that you're saying pause, slow down. Just because you feel that impulse to react with an action, it's, like you said, not the most prudent.

 

Natalie Taylor: That's right. Our brains are wired to want us to protect ourselves and our loved ones. I've had to explain the mama bear to my kids sometimes because we are wired to protect ourselves and we are wired to protect our families. It's innate in us. And it's not a bad thing. [00:19:08] But we have to channel it into the right places and make sure that it's not circumventing good decision-making in other places. 

 

So that innate desire to protect will lead us towards very good paths to protect our kids from getting sick, to protect ourselves from getting sick, to make sure that we're able to put food on the table for our families. 

 

But it will not lead us the right direction when we let that desire to protect invade our investment decision, you know, in normal circumstances outside of the COVID-19 stuff. Sometimes that desire to protect can harm us when we're trying to do something big and new for entrepreneurs, for business owners, for solopreneurs, for those that are trying to do something out of the box.

 

Sometimes that desire to protect wants to keep us in a box when really that's not the right place for us to be. So there are good ways and bad ways that that desire to protect and to protect from loss impacts us, but we just have to make sure that we're applying it in the right areas of our life and not just letting it invade all the areas of our life. [00:20:12] 

 

Laura Dugger: That's good. That we'll require some discernment. That's such a good word. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

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Laura Dugger: I want to circle back that something that you've mentioned in multiple scenarios is that you encourage people to stay invested in the markets. So will you unpack and just share more about why you encourage people to stay invested, even if they're feeling a little bit anxious right now with their investments? [00:22:14] 

 

Natalie Taylor: Absolutely. I mean, I think the first thing is if you're feeling anxious about your investments and you don't like seeing them go down, that is totally normal. I feel the same way. I think it's kind of impossible to not feel those feelings. 

 

And I will say specifically for the people that I typically help, which are generally people in their 30s and 40s with young families, I'm going to kind of make the assumption that we all have more than 10 years until we retire. And so those funds that we have set aside for retirement, we're not needing to use those for 10 plus years. So I want to kind of make sure that that assumption is clear as I talk about what you might or might not want to do in your investment portfolio. 

 

So since we don't need the money for 10-plus years, I think it's important for us to reflect on how the market works. Every shock to the market in order for it to be a shock to the market, and usually shocks like this lead to a recession, which means slower growth for a while, and then we recover. That's when growth comes back. [00:23:16]  

 

Every shock in order for it to be a shock has to be shocking, which I know sounds silly. But the point of it is every time we have this feeling of this one feels different. We never had a global pandemic like this one before or you know, I managed money in the great recession in 2008, 2009 as well all the way before it, during, and after it. There was a lot of talk of this one's different. We've never had a credit crisis like this one before. 

 

We could have huge companies going under overnight like Lehman Brothers did because of over-leverage. And if credit locks up, then the whole economy doesn't work anymore. And that was super, super, super scary. But this is sort of everyone feels different at each time. Each shock feels different. But that's sort of exactly how it works. 

 

That's also exactly what we anticipate, that it's going to be something that no one saw coming, or virtually no one saw coming, and that we're not going to be exactly sure how it's going to sort out or how long it's going to take. [00:24:19] And then eventually, businesses adjust, people adjust, and things get better. 

 

So I can't guarantee that the market's going to go back up. But if we look at history, the market has always recovered eventually. And so I think for those of us with the benefit of a ten plus year time horizon in our investment portfolios, I think it behooves us to strategically stay invested. We are proactively making the decision to stay invested based on historical data that we can see that gives us a very good, logical, reasonable reason to believe that the market will eventually recover and that our portfolios will eventually recover with it. 

 

Laura Dugger: I've heard you say before, Let markets do what markets do. That really helps to hear the reasoning behind it. I do want to touch on the other age group, though. Would this council change then for someone who is around the age of 65 and ready to retire this year? [00:25:23] 

 

Natalie Taylor: It would change to some extent. So for those who are about to retire or who have just retired, I think it's important to make sure that your investment portfolio is balanced between more conservative bond type investments and more aggressive stock type investments. 

 

And I think for those in that demographic, it's really critical to kind of bucket out the money in terms of what money am I going to need to draw in the next year, in the next two years, in the next three years? And what parts of my portfolio are for much later? 

 

Because even if you're 65 now, there's still a substantial part of your portfolio that is for 10-plus years from now. Because you have a long life ahead of you still. And so not all of your money is needed tomorrow. And so I think it's important to not react as if you need all the money tomorrow.

 

So what that means is that part of your portfolio should be invested more for the long term, and we should expect that it would participate in an eventual recovery. [00:26:28] No guarantees, but that's what history has shown us that the markets do. 

 

For the money that you need in the next six or 12 months, many advisors, and I would absolutely agree, recommend that you have one to two years of cash available at any given time in retirement in your portfolio so that you're never having to sell investments when the market is down. 

 

So the hope would be that your portfolio has a slice of either extremely conservative funds or cash for the next 6, 12, 24 months, now would be the time to use those funds instead of having to sell out of the market to support your income.

 

If that's not the situation that you're in, I would talk with a financial advisor and determine what can you do to allow some of your portfolio to grow for later and participate in the upside that is not guaranteed to come, but that we think will come, and what part of your portfolio may need to be in cash or in more conservative investments so that you can have access to the money that you need to create your retirement income. [00:27:39] 

 

Laura Dugger: When you say having access to cash for one to two years, what are some examples of what that looks like? 

 

Natalie Taylor: So within your IRA or your 401k, Roth IRA, 403b, within your retirement portfolio, I'm just going to use easy numbers. If you live on $5,000 a month, that's $60,000 a year. So the idea would be that you have $60,000 to $120,000 of your retirement portfolio in cash. 

 

Now let me caveat that and say if you have social security that's coming in, which most do, and you have a pension which most don't but for those that are in their 60s right now many still do, the cash that you need is only to make up the difference that you need to pull from your portfolio to create your overall income. 

 

So let me restate that a little bit. If you need $5,000 a month to live on, and $3,000 of that comes from Social Security and pensions, you really only need $2,000 a month from your portfolio. [00:28:40] So if you're only needing $2,000 a month from your portfolio, then that's $24,000 for one year and $48,000 for two years.

 

So the idea would be that in this scenario, $24,000 to $48,000 would be in cash within your retirement portfolio, Roth IRA, traditional IRA, 401k, 403b. And right now, instead of slowly liquidating investments over time to create that $2,000 a month from your portfolio, the best thing to do would be to use the cash that's in your portfolio to draw from so that you don't have to sell investments during this downturn.

 

I'm going to caveat all of that, though, very importantly, that this is not official recommendations to you to go buy or sell any specific investment. I'm giving theoretical hypothetical examples to give you some context and understanding. But it's important that you consult with a financial advisor or a financial planner to make these sorts of decisions. [00:29:42] I just want to be super clear that I'm not telling you go buy this or go sell this. I just want to help with the understanding.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great disclaimer because the responsibility really is on each of us. This is just helpful knowledge that you have that you're willing to share, but then we're responsible for what we choose to do with that knowledge and follow up with our own research.

 

But let's just kind of cover two extremes then. What would your conversation look like with people who a) want to right now before listening to this, they want to pull all their money out of the stock market? And b) what would your conversation look like with a client who is coming into COVID-19 pretty financially healthy and they have some extra cash on hand? What would that conversation look like if they wanted to invest that money as soon as possible? 

 

Natalie Taylor: That's a great question. I've gotten both, to be honest. So the first one, those who want to sell out and kind of stop the bleeding in their portfolio, I totally get it. [00:30:46] Honestly, I've had those same exact feelings. I really do relate and I really do get it. And you've worked very hard for the money that you've put away. So it's really difficult to see it drop.

 

We look at increases in our portfolio and percentages. "I made 8% this year." We look at losses in dollars. "I lost $80,000. I lost $30,000." Because our brains are wired to care more about the losses than to get excited about the gains. We love gains. It's great to see your portfolio go up. But the excitement of seeing a portfolio go up is not as strong as that feeling of wanting to protect and fear from loss that we get from seeing our portfolios drop. 

 

So I just want you to know that I'm not here to tell you like, Oh, don't make dumb decisions, just stay invested. That's not it at all. These are real feelings that we all have. So I just want to validate how you're feeling. 

 

In terms of what to do with your portfolio, you know, like I said before, this is what we expect markets to do. Theoretically let's say you got out now and the Dow Jones, which is a good kind of gauge of how the overall market is doing, or the S&P 500 you could use as well. [00:31:56] But the Dow Jones is at about let's say 20,000. 

 

So let's say that you do sell your portfolio and then the market drops and the Dow is at 15,000. So it's dropped another 25%. Are you going to get back in? Because we know that if we're trying to get out, then we're trying to protect from loss, but we need to be in on the upside. So when you see the market drop to 15,000, are you going to get back in or are you going to be afraid that it might drop further?

 

Maybe you get back in at 15,000 and then it drops to 12,000. Do you get out to protect yourself or do you put more in because it's dropped more? Every time the market drops the sale is getting deeper. It's like the sale racket anthropology when it's an extra 25% off for an extra 40%. That's what's happening in the market.

 

So if you buy something at full price, you sure as heck don't want to return it at the sale price when the sale price is 40% off sale. So the point is, if you're going to get out, what's your strategy for getting back in? [00:32:56] Because we need those market returns to get you to your goals. 

 

Unless you just have a boatload of money and you can just fund retirement from cash, which probably means saving about seven times what you're currently saving for retirement, we need the market to get you to your goals. And this is the price we pay for long-term gains, is that there is short-term heartache and short-term losses in the market. But that is what gives us the opportunity for potential long-term gains.

 

I guess what I would ask you to consider if you're thinking about getting out is what's your strategy for getting back in? And are you going to be able to stick to it? Is your heart and your head going to allow you to actually get back in when the market looks even worse than it does now? 

 

Laura Dugger: That's good. And now what about the other side? If they do have some extra cash and they want to get back in, what would your conversation look like with that person?

 

Natalie Taylor: Cash is wonderful to have right now. So if you happen to be in this situation where you have extra cash, I would first say, let's make sure that it's really extra. [00:34:01] So is your income secure? Is your emergency fund topped off? And topped off means, you know, if you're a family and you've got kiddos, it probably means six plus months of income. 

 

So let's use the number from before. If you need $5,000 a month to make your family go, $5,000 for six months is $30,000. So if your emergency fund is well-stocked, your income is extremely secure, and your expenses are under control, and you're in really, really good shape, and you've got extra money lying around, and you have goals that you want to achieve that are long-term, like retirement, or maybe your kids are super young and you're wanting to save for college, which is 10-plus years away. Right now and the next several months are probably a great time to deploy those dollars into the market, to buy into a market that's on sale.

 

There may be deeper discounts coming. So we just don't know. I have no crystal ball. I don't know what the market is going to do. But what we do know is that it's dropped already quite a bit, 30 plus percent. [00:35:05] So if you're looking to get into the market, I would suggest that you consider doing something called dollar cost averaging into the market. 

 

That means investing a specific dollar amount every month for a period of months. So maybe it's, I'm going to put an extra $1,000 in per month over the next six months. I have $6,000 to put in, so I'm going to do $1,000 a month over the next six months. Adjust those numbers to whatever it needs to be for you. But dollar cost averaging can protect you from the possibility that you put all of it in now, and sure, you got a good discount. but maybe tomorrow, or the next few weeks, it drops another 30%. So that six grand that you put in has now immediately dropped 30%. 

 

Long term you're still buying the market on sale, you'll still be fine. But dollar cost averaging can help protect you from putting all the money in and then facing an immediate drop with those dollars. So again, I'm not giving you specific investment advice, I'm giving you some ideas to contemplate and consider as you figure out what's right for you based on your financial situation. [00:36:13] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's such a creative idea that I had never heard of before. So thank you for sharing that. If you've been around The Savvy Sauce for a while, you have heard our invitation to join our support team of patrons.

 

Patreon is a platform created for the community to financially support people who offer creative content. Our team gladly spends a lot of time and money to produce episodes that we're excited to share, but the reality is this is an expensive endeavor. We would be so grateful if you would think about what role you could play to support us. It's super easy to join with only a few clicks. As you visit thesavvysauce.com, click the Patreon tab, and then click "Join Patreon here". We hope you're rewarded for your generosity. 

 

You said you've worked before, during, and after the 2008 recession. So is there anything specific that you learned from that that can be helpful to everyone right now in light of what's going on in our world today? [00:37:15] 

 

Natalie Taylor: Yes, I did. I managed money before, during, and after the Great Recession. I managed tens of millions of dollars for clients. And most of my clients were pre-retired at the time, so they were in their 50s and early 60s, which is a really critical time for clients and for their portfolios.

 

I will say one of the things that stuck with me of the about 200 clients that my partner and I served, there was one client that we couldn't convince to stay invested. As I look back, the day that they sold out of their portfolio was March 8th, and the absolute bottom of the market was March 9th.

 

We didn't know that at the time. We didn't know that we were one day, 24 hours from the bottom. But our recommendation was to stay invested because we anticipated, we expected, based on what history shows us, that the market would recover, that liquidity would come back to the credit market, that the economy would right itself, that consumer spending would eventually come back, and unemployment would eventually go down, and that we are much more resilient than we feel like we are when we're in the midst of a downturn. As people, as communities, as economies, as a globe, that we are resilient. [00:38:30] 

 

And I will never forget they sold and so they locked in losses of like 40% in their portfolio. And then they never got it back because they didn't get back into the market. And if they would have just stayed in, the market would have given them that 40% back within a few years. So that was heartbreaking to me. 

 

But it also really, you know, watching what went on in the Great Recession and kind of seeing the inside of how scary that really was, and then seeing us recover gives me a lot of hope for how we can recover from this recession that we are just entering. Because again, as people, as families, as communities, as economies, and as a globe, we are resilient, we are creative, we will figure out how to come back from all of this. There will be some short-term heartache for some more than others, but the economy will recover and people will recover. The economy is just made up of people, and people are resilient. 

 

Again, I'm not crystal balling and saying that we're headed for recovery immediately. [00:39:32] But I'm just saying in general, that was a real lesson for me from the Great Recession is seeing sort of the depth of the fear of what was going on at that time and then seeing how we recovered at so many levels from that situation has given me a lot more resilience and hope for situations like the one that we're in now.

 

Laura Dugger: I really appreciate that hope. Are there any other practical steps that you could list out for us in hopes of encouraging more wise financial decisions? 

 

Natalie Taylor: I think going through the sort of checklist of, and we've already covered most of them, but I'll just sort of review them, is income first. So doing some thinking about your income. And if your income has the potential of going down or has already gone down, then thinking about what is my list of next places to get money and how much will I need to take on a monthly basis to supplement my income to make it through this short-term period. [00:40:32] 

 

The second one after income is expenses. So thinking through expenses and adjustments that you can make proactively to reduce expenses. One thing that I didn't say earlier but I will add now is, Laura, you back me a couple times about what about those who are not expecting any income impact, you know, that are thinking that they'll make through this just fine. I would encourage those people to look around them and see what they can do to support others around them. And I don't mean just handing out dollars. 

 

For example, if you have a housekeeper that cleans your home, are you able to still keep them paid even though they're probably not coming to your home right now? If you're going to go buy two pounds of coffee at Costco, could you buy two pounds of coffee at a local coffee shop and support that coffee shop? They probably only need to bring in a couple hundred dollars a day to stay afloat. Could you stock up on coffee locally instead of at Costco? 

 

I think it's important to remember that it's not your responsibility to single-handedly bring the economy back in your community. [00:41:32] So I wouldn't go overboard with it, but could you sign up for a CSA box instead of having to go to the market and fight for bananas and try to get greens if you can find them? Could you sign up for a local CSA box so that you can get your fruit and veggies, and many of them also offer bread and eggs, so that you could avoid having to go to the store? You could support local businesses.

 

I would emphasize that more for those who are more protected from an income standpoint. Certainly, all of us have things that we could do, but I would encourage you to be creative in how can I spend my dollars most effectively to be a good steward of the dollars that I have and make prudent spending decisions, but also are there trades that I can make to support my local community and local small businesses through this season? So sorry for the sidebar. I hope it's helpful, but...

 

We were talking through kind of what the steps are. So we talked about income. We just talked about expenses. The next one I would say is cash. So how much cash do you have? How much is in your emergency fund? [00:42:32] Is it stocked up? If it's not fully stocked, what can you do to get it stocked up in the short term? Maybe it's reducing paying down debt for now. Still, please make your minimum payments.

 

If you are in an income situation where your income has gone down substantially, if you have student loans and you're on income-based repayment, you can ask them to reassess your income earlier than they normally do so that your payments can go down. You can also request forbearance on student loans. So there are some options with student loans that you can take advantage of to get some payment relief. And finding other ways to stock up on cash. 

 

The next one is your portfolio, which I think we've talked about in-depth, but in general, staying invested at times like these is a great strategy so that you can participate in what we think will be an eventual recovery without any crystal ball promises. But history has shown us that there will be an eventual recovery and it would be nice for you to be able to participate in that for the market to give back what it's taken away. [00:43:33] 

 

And then the last one would be debt. So are there things that you can do to optimize your debt right now? Like refinancing your mortgage when interest rates are super low, or maybe refinancing private student loans at a lower interest rate since interest rates are low. So I would say those five things would be your checklist. Income, expenses, cash, investments, and debt.

 

Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. Great summary. I love that encouragement to support our small business owners and keep them afloat where it's possible for us to do that. Natalie, all of this has been incredibly helpful. Where can everyone go to learn more from you online? Again, just a reminder, how can they sign up for that email list?

 

Natalie Taylor: So if you go to my website, and Laura, it sounds like you'll link to it in the show notes, you can sign up for my email list. There'll be a little pop-up that allows you to download a values guide that we talked about in our last episode together, Laura, a couple years ago. And then you can sign up for my email list and I will send out periodic information like the letter that Laura has been referring to, to be helpful. [00:44:39] So you're more than welcome to do that. I would love to have you on my email list to stay in touch. 

 

I also work in... I have an individual financial planning practice. So that means that I help clients one-on-one with all of these decisions and walking through balancing all of the goals that they have and the things that they want to accomplish. So if you want to email me, I'm hello@natalieanntaylor.com or you can go to my website and it's easy to contact me from there as well.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. And Natalie, you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Natalie Taylor: I love this question, Laura. I would say my savvy sauce right now is being intentional about what I call wide lens, narrow lens. Being intentional about before I take action or before I make any decision is going wide and saying, okay, what are all of the things that I'm considering right now? [00:45:40] What are the things that I'm thinking? What are the things that I'm feeling? Let me take in all of that macro information.

 

And then once I do my kind of wide lens assessment, then I go narrow and then I say, okay, what do I need to focus on today? What do I need to focus on in the next hour? What do I need to focus on in my business to make the highest and best use of my time and my money? 

 

I think that practice of going wide lens, narrow lens has been a lifesaver for me and has helped me stay really steady and positive and efficient and effective in my work and in my home life with all of this going on, to be able to acknowledge the big picture of what I'm thinking and feeling and what's going on in the world and not stick my head in the sand.

 

But at the same time, then use that as I discern where do I need to be narrowly focused in this moment? What work can I do that is most helpful to the people that I serve, whether that's in my business or in my house? So I think that practice of wide lens, narrow lens has been my savvy sauce right now. [00:46:41] 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. Natalie, I just appreciate getting to be friends for so many years now. There is so much I admire about you. But today, I admire that you were willing to generously share all of this wisdom, simply in hopes of being helpful to everyone listening. And that's in line with your life because you have the most generous approach to life in the way that I see you using your time, your talents, and your finances. 

 

I just want people to know and for you to know that I fully trust you. And I just want to say thank you for sharing some sound and peaceful counsel with us today. I loved having you as my returning guest.

 

Natalie Taylor: Thank you, Laura. Thanks for having me. I think it's really important that we support each other in this time, however we can. And I think we all have gifts and talents to share with the—maybe not share with the world. [00:47:41] Some of us are supposed to share it with a lot, and some of us are supposed to just focus on a very few. So not to say that all of us have to be shouting from the rooftops. I think we all have work that God's given us to do in the sphere that He's placed us in. 

 

So thank you for giving me the opportunity to share. And I really do hope it's helpful. And thank you for your kind words. And I also treasure our friendship and it's wonderful to be back. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:48:47] 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:49:52] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:50:53] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

97 Guiding Our Children Through Their Emotions with Julie Roth

97. Guiding Our Children Through Their Emotions with Julie Roth

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Psalm 56:8 (NLT) “You keep track of all my sorrows. You have collected all my tears in your bottle. You have recorded each one in your book.” 

 

Julie Roth has been married to Marty for 14 years. They have three children ages 10, 9, and 6. She is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, has a Master’s degree in Human Development Counseling, and is currently pursuing a Master's in Counseling from Westminster Theological Seminary. She is on the Board of Directors at Peoria Rescue Ministries and has been a consultant to other ministries in the Midwest. She loves teaching the Bible, counseling, and watching Dude Perfect with her family. And while David says in Psalm 139 that we are all fearfully and wonderfully made, Julie admits to wishing that life as a mother did not come with such bags under her eyes!

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Peoria Christian Schools

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Peoria Christian School. They are raising a generation of 21st-century Christian leaders right here in central Illinois. Visit their website at peoriachristian.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

It's a pleasure to introduce you to my guest and my friend, Julie Roth. She is a wise parent and gifted counselor, and you're going to love the creative ideas she shares to help us build relational capital in our family in order to guide our children well through their range of emotions. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Julie. 

 

Julie Roth: I'm excited to be here with you, Laura. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, it is always a blast to record in person, especially with a friend. So first, will you just tell the rest of our friends listening a little bit about yourself and your season of life? [00:01:18] 

 

Julie Roth: Sure, so I am married, have been married for 14 years, have three children. Their ages are 10, 9, and 6. I am a member at a local church here in the Midwest, and I am on the board of directors at a local rescue ministry. 

 

I have a master's degree in counseling, so I'm licensed in our state to do that profession, and I'm pursuing another master's in counseling through Westminster Theological Seminary, and I'll be done, Lord willing, next year. I have the opportunity to counsel in our church, counsel in the community, and I love mentoring and consulting, whether it be people or organizations, and I am dabbling in some public speaking.

 

Laura Dugger: That's awesome to hear that snapshot. I just want to say that something I admire about you is the way that you slow down to parent and understand your children's emotions. [00:02:23] So can you teach us what that actually looks like for you?

 

Julie Roth: I'll try. Slowing down is really a good description, I think, of it. For me to understand my children's emotions, it requires that I get to know them. I think for several years, I was under the impression that because my kids were birthed by me and they live with me all the time, that I somehow knew them fully and I kind of took it for granted. 

 

To understand their emotions, I first need to understand them uniquely. Even though I have three kids in the same home, parented hopefully the same, they are very unique. I need to focus on them individually to understand them. But then also to learn to understand how they speak and what language they speak. So essentially, I have to be really intentional to be a student of my children. [00:03:24] 

 

Laura Dugger: That's such a reminder that we all need to be intentional students of those around us who we love. So now for each of us, if we want to understand our own children's emotions and help guide them, what are some questions you recommend we begin to ask?

 

Julie Roth: I don't think that there are magical questions. These are some questions that I just started doing in trying to understand my kids. One of them would be to identify what do they value or what do they not value? I think that's really helpful for me with each of my kids. 

 

Also, what annoys them or what excites them? It helps me see the different facets of who they are and then how their different emotions will play out and what they will look like. 

 

Big ones for my kids beyond that would be, how are they encouraged? [00:04:24] That was a hard one for me to identify with two of my children. One was very obvious. 

 

So the flip question, which was more easy for me to answer, is how are they discouraged? Or when do I see my child deflate? Is it when they weren't recognized for something that they were really excited about and proud of or was it when they didn't get a reward? Was it when they received speech that was more harsh or stern? Was it when someone said something really mean? 

 

Those are just some examples of when I would see my children deflate. And it was usually in situations that were public or where I was observing them. 

 

For me, it's harder to observe my children be encouraged or discouraged when I am directly engaged with them because I am distracted by my own emotions or my own thoughts or my own agenda. [00:05:32] So that's where being a student and observer of my child is helpful because when they're interacting with friends or their dad or siblings, or teachers, then I can see when they get puffed up and when they deflate, if that makes any sense. 

 

Laura Dugger: That totally makes sense. I think those examples help drive it home. So even going back to that first one, you said, what do they value or what don't they value, are there any examples on the top of your mind?

 

Julie Roth: Sometimes it is through emotion. They'll be excited. Sometimes it's through action. So what are they protecting? What are they regularly carrying around? What do they bring in the car with them? Those are tangible objects.

 

But then what do they talk about? What is it that they go to bed thinking about and wake up thinking about that then they verbalize or they do when I'm observing them to see this is something really important to them? [00:06:37] 

 

Another question that's been really helpful in communicating with my children is, how are they motivated? One child may be motivated by what they can gain, what reward they'll receive, while another child might be motivated by what they can get away with. 

 

So I will talk with one child who they want to know the bare minimum that they have to do in order to avoid a consequence. That's a type of motivation, right? But the flip side, just like with the encouragement and discouragement, how are they discouraged? When do I see that they will not take action regardless? 

 

For one of my children, it would be when he feels that he has disappointed you, that he's behind, that he's already failed. For one of his siblings, they would be motivated when they feel like they're the underdog, and they would put forth a lot of effort to achieve something. [00:07:43] But for him, when he's the underdog, it almost paralyzes him. So that's really helpful for me in communicating with him as a parent because I'm going to approach them from a different angle if I'm needing to get them to take action in a certain area.

 

The last question that I'm regularly going through would be, what emotion or motions does this particular child regularly experience? Which ones do I not observe them experiencing a lot?

 

Then finally, what emotion do they follow blindly? With that last part, I mean, if one particular emotion hits a child and every time they experience that emotion they will not challenge it, but they will follow it wherever it goes, that is something that I do a mental check for and know that I'm going to be speaking in during the peace times so that I can do some training and educating of them. [00:08:55]  That when they enter into those emotions and follow blindly, now we have some language and a plan of attack. 

 

An example of that would be anger. When anger hits, there's no questioning, there's no challenge of whether this is good or not, whether it's appropriate or not, but one child will just go where that emotion takes them.

 

Laura Dugger: I think that really helps to understand it with an example of anger. Another one that comes up would be sadness, if they would go down that path. Are there any other ones that you've seen? 

 

Julie Roth: Shame, humor even. So joy, excitement. I think any emotion a person, whether they be a child or a parent, can almost become a slave to. They want to hold on tight for that ride because they interpret that emotion as being advantageous for them, whether it's a curiosity or a desperate need to see where it goes. [00:10:04] 

 

I think that each of us have at least one, if not multiple, emotions that we don't challenge and that we almost view as the leader or a best friend that we always want to be around even if they're not good for us.

 

Laura Dugger: That's so true. I think even in my own life at the new year was 2020 and I was listening to a message, a sermon, they were kind of talking about this topic and just what do you need to let go of in your life maybe that you don't even want a part of it, but you don't recognize how much it's taking over you? And for me, it was false guilt. 

 

So what you're saying, just following blindly, I don't want that to be a part of my life. But as a 34-year-old woman, I'm still battling that frequently. So how much more would our children be experiencing this? 

 

Julie Roth: That's right. I think that that's what makes me so excited about the opportunity to speak into our children to understand their emotions and then use scripture to help them rightly interpret their emotions. [00:11:11] Because if at age 5 or 9 or 15 they have tools and they're in a regular habit of utilizing those tools to discern, why am I feeling this way, is it appropriate, should I, is it biblical, if they're able to identify that there is an emotion there that might want to motivate or influence their thinking or actions, how beautiful the life that they get to navigate with those tools and that knowledge. 

 

Laura Dugger: It overflows into so many areas. And it's so life-giving to other people in addition to themselves. So now that you've laid this foundation and we have some of these questions we can begin to ask our kids, let's flip the script. What questions can we begin to now ask ourselves to make sure that we're approaching this with the correct posture?

 

Julie Roth: I started asking questions of myself because I kept finding myself failing with my communication with my children. [00:12:17] I would find myself almost at wit's end not understanding why the wisdom or truth that I valued was not connecting with them. And so I started to ask these questions. 

 

The first is, is this the right time for me to speak into my child? I think there are two components to that. One, where's my child at? So are they emotional to a degree that they're not able to hear me? So it could be super excited, it could be very tired, it could be angry.

 

When my children are tired, just to use that middle example, they are not good listeners. They don't have it almost in their body to either sit still or to focus. So I learned that it was foolish of me to use a lot of words during those times of my children being tired because it wasn't helping them. [00:13:19] It was torturing them, probably, and just infuriating me. 

 

So where are they at to maybe receive whatever wisdom that I want to share? But on the flip side, where am I at? And where are my emotions? Am I distracted? Am I tired? Am I angry? Am I pursuing their good or my own agenda? So there has to be that pause for me to say, "Okay, I've observed this in my child. I think it needs to be addressed. But is this the time to do it?"

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. So starting with taking inventory of where everyone is. Are there any other questions that you walk through for yourself?

 

Julie Roth: Absolutely. Once I determine that the message to be conveyed can be received, I need to check with myself, where are we at in the relationship? What relational capital do I have to speak into this particular child? [00:14:21] 

 

More often than not, it'll be okay. But there are times and seasons where when I will not necessarily connect with one child, and we just seem to be out of sync. And in those seasons, I really need to evaluate, am I the best person to speak into them or would maybe my husband be that person? Which means delayed gratification, right, for me. I have this message, I think it's really important, it is best for my child or maybe even best for our relationship if I hold on to it and allow a better person to speak in.

 

Or if it's not necessarily my husband to speak in and I feel like I think I should, what do I need to do to strengthen the relationship with this particular child before I speak in? So that might mean that we allow the intense emotion to dissipate and then we might have some fun. We might spend some time playing a game or playing outside, reading a book, just having some quality time one-on-one so that that particular child knows that when I speak with them I am for them and that relational capital then is secure for me to convey the message that I think that they need to hear. [00:15:47] 

 

Laura Dugger: And then it's probably more impactful to them at that time because they're also feeling secure in the relationship, right? 

 

Julie Roth: Exactly. Then the third, which is no doubt the most important for their understanding and navigating life, is where does Jesus enter into the situation? Or how is the gospel relevant to them in this moment? And then what does it look like? 

 

So, I think it's the most important, but I have to do the other work first to make sure that this important message and the pivot to Christ is received well and conveyed well.

 

With anger, where does Jesus enter in? How does Jesus have relevance to that particular child? What about sadness? It's a question that I'm always asking myself. [00:16:46] 

 

Here's another way to say it. How does the gospel inform my communication? The message and the way that I convey the message. So it comes to me and then I communicate it to my children. Where is Jesus in the situation and how is the good news relevant to them? 

 

I've mentioned anger. I think it is something that as a mother with three children, I see it often. When I'm talking with a child about their anger or my anger, we pivot to the cross and the relevance of the gospel. God's anger was poured out on Jesus so that we would be forgiven and that the stain of our sin would no longer rest upon us.

 

Laura Dugger: With that, if it's somebody's first time hearing this, and they want to use this example with their own children, what would their next step look like after explaining that to their kids? [00:17:53]

 

Julie Roth: I regularly will then communicate with my children, this is why mom needs Jesus too. So it's not just that you need Jesus because of your sin, you live with me, you see that I sin, we both need Jesus. Mom needs Jesus too. 

 

And I need Jesus not only as Savior who has allowed my sins to be forgiven but also I need Jesus as Lord to direct my path and guide me. So even though Mom has accepted Jesus in her heart and is forgiven, I still am very foolish and I need Him to guide me. And so I ask for forgiveness, but then I ask him to give me wisdom to know how to live life well and live life without sinning. 

 

Laura Dugger: The way that I've witnessed your life, it is so intentional and you're so thoughtful with this entire approach. I really appreciate you sharing all of that. [00:18:55] Just to catch everybody up, a little side note here. When our family moved to Illinois, multiple people were suggesting that I connect with Julie because they knew we would be fast friends. But it wasn't until we lived here almost four years that I finally got to meet Julie.

 

The first time we met was actually when she was a speaker at our mom's group. And that day, she spoke about unique ways we can practically apply this information, the topic that we're discussing today. So, Julie, will you share examples of how we can use scripture and games to connect with our kids?

 

Julie Roth: With scripture, I love using it. I'm usually late to use it because I want to do it on my own and it's not working. So then it's like, Oh, Lord, I forgot to go to your wisdom for myself. 

 

But I think the posture to use scripture is not to beat the child over the head with it. [00:19:59] It is employing, how do I understand this child to think? How do I understand this child to feel? Do I understand how they speak? Which is kind of what we're talking about. I'm going to use scripture and weave it into those areas so that they can understand it. I think this is the key to understanding our children. 

 

The purpose is, in one form, for us to learn the language they speak so that we interpret scripture into that native tongue for them. So using scripture is not, well, here's the memory verse, or you need to do this with the hitting of the fingers toward the child. It is using scripture to illuminate their mind and to draw their heart to the Lord because they have need for him. I'm going to use it carefully. I'm going to use it lovingly. [00:21:03] 

 

Laura Dugger: I remember one of the examples you used about this was about God collecting our tears. Can you share that story? 

 

Julie Roth: Sure. This was my daughter who was really sad and she was really feeling the blues. I didn't really know what to do. And so we were just sitting, holding hands as she was crying. I knew I could not change the situation. I knew that I could not take away her feeling. 

 

So we sat for a while, and the Spirit just brought to mind one of the psalms that tells us that God collects our tears. So I just asked her that question, do you know that the Bible says that God collects our tears? And instead of it being a speech that I gave her, which I'm sure happens all the time in our house, God really allowed me to ask questions. [00:22:09] 

 

So I inquired to her, why do you think he does that? Why would God collect tears the way your brothers collect Pokémon cards and you collect Shopkins? I think that's kind of strange. So she thought about it in her tears and she said, Well, I guess he thinks that they're important. And I said, Yeah, I think you're right. But why are they important? Isn't that kind of a strange thing to collect? 

 

At this point, the tears had kind of stopped and she was engaging her mind and pondering things of the Lord. I think that's the greatest distraction in our emotions. And it's not a distraction that we run to, I don't think, out of fear of feeling them, right? We're still feeling the emotion and also pondering: where is God in this emotion? [00:23:07] 

 

And by wondering about why God would collect tears brought us to that place, and she said, "Well, I guess God would collect tears and think that they are important because He wants to remember them." And I tell you what, I got chills because my daughter, who is in pain, is speaking truth into my heart. And I said, "I think you're absolutely right. He remembers them and he views them as important because you're important to Him and He sees you. There's nothing that you're experiencing that he doesn't recognize as important. And so He wants to remember that." 

 

Then we talked about, so if He's collecting these tears, that means He has to be really close because tears are close. They don't go out like a sneeze does. They stay close to our skin and they roll off. [00:24:11] So our God is near collecting them with us in the experience.

 

You know, it didn't change her circumstance. She was still sad. She wanted to talk with her dad about it. But there was a comfort that came as she considered that verse in scripture. It's a surreal comfort. It's that peace that surpasses all understanding of how we can experience a strong emotion, ponder who God is, still feel that strong emotion, and yet be okay in it, to feel that comfort, to know that we can overcome it because God is with us. 

 

And that's what happened later in that evening and even the next day. It was this recognition that she survived it. This emotion that was too large for her and was very overwhelming did not overcome her because God was near.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. [00:25:13] 

 

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Visit their website at peoriachristian.org and schedule a campus tour today. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: For that last one, a little bit more lighthearted, you said you can use games to connect with your kids. 

 

Julie Roth: I love using games. It's fun and they're super engaged. You can use any type of game. It can be, you know, when you're playing ping pong back and forth. It can be when you're playing checkers. It can be when you're doing Jenga. 

 

Whatever truth or emotion that we need to talk about can be discussed in a game format. [00:27:22] I'm a counselor so a lot of my games that I will use with clients we do at home too and Jenga is one of those where I will number every Jenga block and put them in that tower and I have a corresponding list of questions or maybe actions that would be paired up with a number. 

 

So as we're playing Jenga, which is a competitive game of stacking blocks on one another and then trying to pull those blocks out without the tower falling, one of the children will pull out a number, then we look at the list and they have to answer that question. 

 

At first we might be playing the game, but every single time near the end we're really having good discussion back and forth and the children have to remind each other or I have to remind them, "Hey, whose turn is it? We need to actually keep playing the game." [00:28:24] But it's a great dialogue. 

 

Then when the children aren't really too much into it, answering the question that is, then we'll pull another block. It's just a way for us to have meaningful conversation about whatever topic while engaging in that fun side too. 

 

Laura Dugger: What would some of those corresponding questions sound like?

 

Julie Roth: If they were about emotions, it would be, what emotion do you feel the strongest? Or, what emotion do you not like to feel? Or, when I am at school, I feel (fill in the blank). "I am most hurt when someone says this."

 

It really is getting to know the children. I play too, so they get to hear Mom's perspective. When dialogue needs to take place or I sense that they want to talk more about it, we will. [00:29:27] 

 

Laura Dugger: Such a non-threatening way to really be intentional and get to the hard issues. 

 

Julie Roth: Absolutely.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, let's just take this one step further so we can know how to practically apply this at home in relation to our kids experiencing various emotions. Do you mind just picking a few emotions and going deeper on each one?

 

Julie Roth: Sure. So we've talked about the blues. We've also briefly touched on anger, but maybe we take a little bit more time there because I do feel like anger is popping up a lot. I have a son who is very gentle, not at all aggressive, yet anger really clings to him and he will follow it blindly, like we were kind of referencing earlier.

 

We were talking about how emotions are, I think, designed to be more gauges rather than guides. A guide is someone to take you to different places and that emotions want to be a guide. [00:30:30] But they're really intended to be gauges. They're intended to give feedback to us about how we are experiencing a circumstance.

 

With anger, this particular child struggled to view it more as a guide, and he would follow it blindly. He really wasn't understanding that concept until he hit one of his siblings. And like I said, he is non-aggressive and very loving, would never hit someone, but in his anger he did, and it surprised him. It really caught him off guard and it disoriented him. He did not know why he did that. 

 

Now this was not immediate. Immediately he was very hot and angry. But when we gave him a cooling-off period and he was able to think more rationally and engage in conversation, I asked him if he would ever hit normally. He was very emotional to say no. And I said, "I agree. I've never seen you hit out of frustration, but this time you hit. Why do you think that was?" [00:31:50] He said, "Because I was really mad."

 

And I said, "I think you're right. But do you see how that anger, feeling mad, brought you to a place that you never would normally go? You normally live in, I am not a hitter, I love, I am not aggressive, and you followed the guide of anger to the destination of it is right and good for me to hit and I need to do it now." It connected with him. He understood how anger led him astray.

 

The problem with our emotions serving as guides is that more often than not, that guide wants to lead us farther away from God. Our emotions as guides generally do not direct us upward, they direct us outward or inward. [00:32:52] 

 

Another example. My son was playing outside with friends and he accidentally hit a friend in the face with a ball. Truly accidental. But his heart revealed that he was more concerned about himself and playing the game than caring for his friend. And so we used this God's design in the order of God, others, and self by looking at Legos and looking at the Lego instruction manual. 

 

I talked about how all of the steps were important, right? Equally important. So we flipped step 3, and then we flipped step 73, and I said, "So what if we were to swap, and we put 73 in 3's place, and 3 in 73? What do you think would happen?" And he said, "Well, that would not work at all." I said, "Well, why not?" He said, "Because they're not in the right order." And I said, "You're right." [00:33:55] I said, "The Lego design would look different, wouldn't it? And he said, "Yes. I don't even know that we'd be able to build it." And I said, "Yes." 

 

I said, "That's the same for God's design. When we misorder and put ourselves above others, it doesn't look the way that God designed it. And God's design is better than our design. 

 

I was sharing this with my sister, and her daughter is not into Legos, but her daughter does love crafts and coloring books. And in her coloring book, my sister found a Connect the Dot. And so she thought about my story with my son who struggles with the same things that her daughter does. So she used the Connect the Dot to say, "Let's start connecting the dots. One, two, three, four, five. What if we skipped six and we went to 13 instead?" And her daughter said, "No, mom, I can't do that. It won't look like it's supposed to look." And so my sister used that principle to speak in. "You're right, when we put things out of order, they don't look right. We're putting things out of order now with how we're treating our siblings. So what would be the right order? How do we do this?" [00:35:15] 

 

Laura Dugger: And we talk a lot on The Savvy Sauce about God being such a personal God, but I think this brings it to light that the Holy Spirit is our helper right there, readily available, and we can ask Him in these moments to give us examples like this to really communicate something in a way that's meaningful to our children. 

 

We love our audience. You are the friendliest people. If you ever have questions, or if you want to become a sponsor, or you would like to learn more about becoming a patron, please reach out to us in an email sent to info@thesavvysauce.com. You can also connect with us on social media at The Savvy Sauce.

 

We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Julie, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Julie Roth: I think with parenting, and marriage probably too, it is laughter. [00:36:15] I so appreciate the role of mother and the hard work that it takes to be a mom that I don't always relax and have fun in it. That's not my natural state. My natural state would be to take this role, be super responsible, and then take the responsibility of God on myself as well. And that responsibility would be to soften my children's heart, to convict my children, and to rescue my children. 

 

I have a heavy responsibility to expose them to the God who does that, to model my need for that God. But I can't rescue my children. I cannot protect them in all things. I cannot be God to them. And so if I trust God to be God and I do the hard work of being a mom, that leaves me room to rest in God and then to have fun. [00:37:19] 

 

So laughter is my savvy sauce, even though it is not natural to me. And because it's not natural, I kind of have to infuse it into parenting. Some of the ways I do that would be to play games, like I said earlier. Games really help me lighten up and have fun with the kids, let them see my personality and not just my role as mom. 

 

Laughter through the Tickle Monster... As soon as I hear my kids' laughter, I will start laughing too. So I will start tickling and the Tickle Monster comes out and everyone starts laughing and it just lightens the mood and it connects us and bonds us in really sweet ways.

 

But there are other times when my heart does not want to be light. It does not want to laugh. It does not want to find rest in the Lord. I want to hold on to whatever mood I'm holding on to, and remembering who my children are and were, it's helpful. [00:38:24] 

 

So we'll look at old pictures, we'll watch old videos on my phone, we'll see the silly things that they've done, and inevitably my heart softens and we start laughing again. So laughter would be probably my savvy sauce.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. Before I met you, Julie, so many people kept talking about your name and your great reputation, and they were absolutely right. I cannot even begin to express how grateful I am for you. I always learn so much through every conversation, and when we leave our time together, I feel very sharpened. So I'm sure everybody listening is just nodding along thinking the same thing. But thank you for being my guest today.

 

Julie Roth: It has been such a joy, Laura. I love it. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:39:25] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:40:27] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:41:35] 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Bonus Episode! Caring For Your Neighbor, Heart, and Home During COVID-19 with Kathi Lipp

Bonus: Caring for Your Neighbor, Heart, and Home During COVID-19 with Kathi Lipp

 

John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” 

 

Kathi Lipp inspires thousands of women each year to strip down their expectations and lives and live with real purpose. With humor and wisdom, Kathi offers hope paired with practical steps to live with meaning.

 

Kathi Lipp is the author of 20 books including Clutter Free, The Christmas Project Planner, The Get Yourself Organized Project, The Husband Project, and Overwhelmed. She is the host of Clutter Free Academy the Podcast! with Kathi Lipp and speaks at conferences across the US. She also runs the Facebook group Clutter Free Academy where thousands of women (and a few brave guys) support each other in living a Clutter Free life.

 

She has become well respected on the topics of clutter from a biblical perspective (who knew there was such a thing?). She is a national speaker and is often featured on Woman’s World as one of their “Ask the Experts”, Focus on the Family, MOPS International, Crosswalk.com, Girlfriends in God and Proverbs 31 Ministries as well as a number of other media outlets around the country.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Ready for Anything by Kathi Lipp

Kathi Lipp’s Website

Connect with Kathi on Facebook @kathilipp and join her Clutter Free Academy Group!

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

96 Understanding and Delighting in Our Differences with Bill & Pam Farrel

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears. 

 

96. Understanding and Delighting in Our Differences with Bill & Pam Farrel

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Ephesians 5:21 (NIV) “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." 

 

Bill and Pam Farrel are relationship experts, international speakers, and Directors of Love-Wise. They have been married and in ministry for 39 years.  Bill has experience as Youth Pastor, followed by 15 years as a Lead Pastor; then was Pastor of Small Groups for Dr David Jeremiah at Shadow Mountain church.  Pam served alongside Bill in youth work then served as Director of Women’s Ministry during Bill’s years as a Pastor; They have written 50+books including best-selling Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti , Red Hot Monogamy and their 10 Best Decisions series (for couples, singles, parents, grads, leaders, men and women).  Their books have been translated into 15+ languages. They have spoken for a wide variety of groups: overseas for missions, the military and government sponsored events (including keynoting at National Marriage convention sponsored by government of Singapore); In the USA and Canada for churches, conference centers, community groups as well as the military and businesses.  Their wit and wisdom make them popular speakers and podcast, radio and TV guests (Moody network, Family Life Today, Focus on the Family, Dr. Dobson’s Family Talk radio, A Better Us TV and most TV networks).  The Farrel's also enjoy helping people with their most vital relationships online in the Living Love-Wise Community. Recently, the Farrel's moved near Bill’s 90 year-old parents to help with their care. The Farrel's enjoy time with their grown children, their spouses and young grandchildren, and when they are not working in ministry, or with family, you may find them walking the beach, biking, or kayaking from their down-sized home on a live aboard boat docked in Southern California. www.Love-Wise.com

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Bill & Pam Farrel’s Website 

Connect on social media: 

Instagram @pamfarrel 

Facebook @billandpamfarrel

Discovering the Bible Website 

 

Facebook Group Mentioned: Red Hot Wives Challenge

One of Many Books by Bill and Pam Farrel:

Men Are Like Waffles — Women Are Like Spaghetti

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

 

Laura Dugger: Hey everyone! I want to interrupt our normal rhythm to acknowledge what's going on in our world right now. I'm actually recording this on Thursday, so the circumstances with the coronavirus will likely be different by the time this episode reaches you on Monday. 

 

Regardless, there are some timeless truths I want to both say and pray over you right now. Some people may be wondering why. During a time that seems justifiable to produce high levels of fear, why are some people able to experience inner peace? Even when this situation looks bleak and scary and unknown, how do some people still have a sincere inner joy? There are many sentences from the Bible that God uses to address this. I want to read just a few of them to you now.

 

First, in Isaiah 26:3, it says, "You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose thoughts are fixed on you." [00:01:01] And then in 1 Peter 1:8, Peter gives us a word of encouragement about Jesus when he says, "Though you have not seen him, you love him. And even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy." 

 

If you desire this perfect peace and this inexpressible joy now and forever, cry out to God. Wherever you're listening to this right now, just call on His name, He will answer you. The Bible says in Jeremiah 29:13, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

 

We'll get to our episode soon, and we plan to continue releasing content as a form of normalcy for you to enjoy no matter what your situation looks like today. But before we hear this episode, will you just join me in prayer? God, we call on Your name right now. [00:02:00] I don't know where this is landing today and what all of the situations are. Some of us are listening and are gripped with fear. Some of us are ill, and still others of us may be frustrated with this entire situation. Wherever we are, Lord, will You meet each one of us right there? 

 

Right now, God, I pray you provide Your perfect peace that transcends all understanding. We know You offer peace that's different from the peace the world offers, and we just want to declare that we are placing our hope and faith and trust in You. Please guide us with our next right step and be our comfort. We need You every moment. Thank you for allowing us to approach You wherever we are. You are such a good God. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

 

[00:02:52] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:03:10] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Bill and Pam Farrell are ministry leaders and authors of numerous books. Together we're going to discuss so many topics related to marriage, including communication, intimacy, conflict, and how we recharge in different ways. This is incredibly helpful for anyone who wants to understand their spouse or significant other better. [00:04:14] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Bill and Pam. 

 

Pam Farrel: Hey, so great to be here. I love listening to you. 

 

Bill Farrel: I have never been on a show called Savvy Sauce before, so looking forward to it. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Well, you just start us off by taking us back all the way to your childhood and share how both of you discovered Jesus to be your Savior and writing to be one of your passions. 

 

Pam Farrel: I'll go first. So if you look at my life, I was born into a very chaotic, kind of crazy home. I'm the firstborn daughter of an alcoholic dad that had severe rage issues. Like, I always thought that our family would make the headlines, but not for a good reason. More like, Man shoots family, then shoots himself. A lot of domestic violence in our home. 

 

My mom had a best friend named Kathy. [00:05:14] And that best friend lived Jesus in front of my mom and loved my mom with Jesus' power. So my mom got curious. She's like, "What do you have, Kathy, in your life that makes you so happy and you and your husband have a strong marriage? I love your kids and you're just so loving and giving. What is it?"

 

Kathy was... she was kind of shy. So she just kind of said, "Hey, Afton, why don't you and the kids just come to church with me and you'll see." And so in a little teeny tiny town in Oregon, in a little teeny tiny church, my mom walked us in. I was the oldest. I was about six or seven at that point. And I was holding hands with my little siblings. We walked in and met such loving people that welcomed us and taught us about Jesus. I saw love. [00:06:14] I saw what love looked like for the first time. And I just knew I want to know the author of love, Jesus. 

 

So the pastor came into our class and he's like, well, we're going to have this quiz team. In a town of like 100 people, quiz team kind of like American Idol. You know, you want to be on the show. And he's like, but you have to memorize Matthew 5, 6, and 7 to be on quiz team. So little firstborn Pam, overachiever, hey, I'm going to memorize Matthew 5, 6, and 7. I want to be on quiz team. 

 

We were doing the Sermon on the Mount and came across that little verse: If you ask, you shall receive; if you seek, you will find; if you knock, the door will be opened unto you. I remember thinking in my little heart, wow, Jesus, does that mean if I ask you to come into my life, that you would be my best friend, my Savior, my Lord? 

 

Also during that time, if you memorize verses, there was this little treasure box, and you could pull a prize out when you said your memory verse. [00:07:17] So I memorized Psalms 23, and I pulled out this little cross, and it glowed in the dark. And I'm like, So cool. And so I pinned it onto my bulletin board. 

 

Well, that day while I was sitting on my bed, trying to memorize all of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, about halfway through, my dad had been drinking all day and all night. He was in a rage. My sweet Mom trying to talk him down. It got very scary. 

 

So little firstborn Pam, worried about her little brother and sister, I run into my brother's room, and I gather my sister, my brother, and I bring them back into my room. I shut the door. I pushed a chest of drawers, a dresser in front of the door so Dad couldn't get in and hurt us. I tucked my brother and sister into bed. Then I shut off the light, and I climbed into bed. And there glowing in the dark was that little cross, and on it, it read, Jesus lives. [00:08:15] 

 

And I remember thinking, "Wow, the pastor's been telling me that you're stronger, Jesus, than anything, that you're more powerful than anyone, that you're more powerful than death itself." And if you're all those things, and I believe that you are, please come into my life to be my best friend, my Savior, and my Lord. And P.S. God, if you could work it out, I'd love to marry a pastor one day." And God answered all those cries of that little girl's heart. 

 

Started on a new life, went from pouty Pam to perky Pam. The joy of the Lord became my strength. Even though my parents' marriage got worse and worse, and it got more and more crazy and chaotic and volatile at my house, God was there with me., Emmanuel. And I am so grateful that a precious, shy friend of my mom invited us to come to church. 

 

Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness, Pam, that is such a captivating journey. [00:09:17] Thank you for sharing all of that. Bill, will you share your side as well? 

 

Bill Farrel: Sure. I grew up in a home where my mom, I would describe her as a wounded natural leader. And because she's a natural leader, she was the dominant personality in my home. And because she's wounded, she was afraid of almost anything you can imagine. 

 

I became really aware of it when I was in fifth grade. I was told I couldn't know Jewish people, Black people, anybody whose dad was a doctor, or anybody whose parents were divorced. Because I was told those four groups of people were out to get us. It was a real problem for me because my best friend at the time was a Jewish young guy whose dad was a doctor and his parents were getting divorced. So I started asking the question, is my home normal? And I began to realize my home's very different. 

 

One of the things my mom did out of her fear is she isolated us down. [00:10:15] So the only people I spent time with growing up was my family of five. So my mom, dad, my brother, sister, and myself. We didn't have any extended family, no family friends, and we weren't allowed to go anywhere where there were groups of people, which means I was never going to meet Jesus in a typical way because church was out of the picture. 

 

But then my sophomore year in high school, I went to see an evangelistic film called The Exorcist. That movie got me reading the Bible. And the thought that got me was, about halfway through the movie, I said in my heart, "I don't see any difference between me and the girl on the screen. So if anything like that could happen, and I knew Hollywood had overdone it, but if anything like that could happen, what would keep it from happening to me?" I left with no answers. 

 

And because our family was so isolated, I didn't know anybody to talk to. But we had a Bible in our house. So I started reading the Bible. I started sleeping with the Bible because I'd seen vampire movies, and you know, if you hold a cross, they can't get you. [00:11:22] So I thought, well, if I have the Bible with me, they can't get me. 

 

After a month of doing all that, I read 1 John 4:4. It says, "Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world." And the light went on for me. That night I asked Jesus to come into my life and be my Savior and forgive me for my sins. 

 

The first thing that happened that made me knew that something was different is I slept all night that night. That's the first time I'd done that since I'd seen the movie. And because we weren't allowed to go to church, my brother and I started a Bible study at our high school that grew to 60 high school students who simply shared, what did God teach you this week? 

 

The first night that we got together, there were five of us, and we all shared what we had learned that week. And then, okay, well, what do we do now? And somebody in the group said, "Well, let's pray." Oh, that's good. Let's pray. 

 

So we prayed, and in the prayer we prayed it would double. And the next week 10 students showed up. [00:12:23] So we went, We know how this works. So we went through, we shared what we had learned. We prayed for each other. We prayed it would double again. It went to 20. Then it went to 40. And we didn't think we'd have enough room to keep it doubling. So we just told God at that point, you just make it whatever size you want. 

 

And for the rest of that year, 60 of us got together, sharing what God was teaching us that week. And for me, it was electrifying. Because the first time in my life, I had real friends. The people that were there were genuine in their faith in Christ. And we were sharing what God was doing in our life right now. 

 

So Jesus became very real to me. And things woke up inside of me that had been numb. Because my response to my home was I just went numb. I was tired of being hurt and I was tired of being disillusioned. So I went numb, which means you couldn't hurt me, but I didn't feel the good side of life either. 

 

And when I started walking with Jesus, things started coming alive inside of me that I didn't even know existed. [00:13:23] And so ministry became very exciting to me. I knew by the time I was halfway through college, I knew that a life of ministry was what I wanted to do with my days here on earth. So it's been awesome being married to somebody who's as committed to ministry as I am. It's been a real privilege to be able to minister to people around the world, teaching them how family works, which is still fascinating to me. Because when you grow up in a chaotic home and you end up having a healthy marriage, it's a pretty amazing thing that happens. 

 

Pam Farrel: People always tell us, wow, you defied all odds, you two. We celebrated 40 years together. We just did celebrate 40 years together. Our family wrote us a book that’s like, the 40 reasons why we admire your marriage, from our kids and grandkids and daughter-in-laws. And it was so precious. We sat there and just cried because we are a walking miracle of God. Our marriage probably shouldn't even have lasted a month because we came in with so much baggage, but God began to unpack that baggage. [00:14:27] And yes, God can do that for everybody. 

 

Laura Dugger: Amen to that. That is so incredible to hear all of that backstory. I think that's a great topic to cover today. So, for our chat, I'd love to focus specifically on one of your bestselling books related to marriage. And that's the one called Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti: Understanding and Delighting in Your Differences. So will you two just tell us more about those differences? 

 

Pam Farrel: We got to tell you the story about the title because it makes it another God miracle. 

 

Bill Farrel: Well, one of the things that's very true about us is we realized early on we couldn't trust our instincts about relationships because the homes we grew up in didn't develop our instincts very well. 

 

Pam Farrel: We had to be very proactive and hunt down mentors. Bill would take us to church. We went into ministry early. We got married at 20 and we were youth pastors. [00:15:31] We would go and we stand at the back of the church and holding hands and Bill would survey the crowd. And he would look for couples that looked like they still liked each other that had some gray hair, couples that were maybe hugging or holding hands or arm around his or her back. And he'd go plant us behind them. 

 

Bill Farrel: We had a greeting time at our church, so they had to meet us. And when they met us, I would look at the husband and say, "Hey, you look like you're in love with this woman. Is this real?" And if he said yes, I would say, "Well, how did you do it?" You don't have time at church to have that conversation. So that usually led to an invite to lunch. And over lunch, we would ask them questions like, what do you do every day that keeps you in love? And what are the things you've done you wouldn't repeat because they weren't smart the first time? 

 

Pam Farrel: What's the hardest time and season you've ever been through and how did you survive it as a couple?

 

Bill Farrel: What kind of habits have you developed as a couple that keep you connected? [00:16:30] And we started to discover real wisdom from those couples. 

 

Pam Farrel: So because of that, we really saw the value of mentors and mentoring, and our hearts really kind of turned to like, we really want to be those people that people can come to as mentors to them. So we had this open heart to want to share anything that God was teaching us that helped us with everybody else.

 

So fast forward, we have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. We moved to a new community. Bill's 28. He takes over as lead pastor of a church. And we're thinking, how do we best reach this community? We're both athletes, and so why don't we volunteer in youth sports? So Bill ended up as the president of the basketball league. One day in the gym, a man came to Bill. 

 

Bill Farrel: He said, "Hey, you're a pastor, right?" I said, "Yes." He said, "You work with couples?" I said, "Well, yeah, we do actually. We do a lot of training in our church." He said, "Can I bring my wife in to see you? Because I think she's broken."

 

Pam Farrel: Him and Bill, [00:17:33] "You guys have a great marriage. I really want what you have, but I don't have it right now." 

 

Bill Farrel: I was really intrigued by what he meant by she's broken. So I said, "Yeah, why don't you come into my office, and let's just see what happens." Well, they came to my office. This woman is probably the most verbal woman I've met in my lifetime. I know studies say that women have more words every day than the average man does. She's definitely in the top 2% or 3%. 

 

So they came to my office, they sat down, he looked at her and said, "Go ahead." And she started talking right on cue.

 

Pam Farrel: And she was jumping from subject to subject to subject. The husband looked at Bill with this panicked look. 

 

Bill Farrel: So I said to him, "Why don't you think about her conversation like a plate of spaghetti? There's a bunch of noodles on the plate. Every noodle touches every other noodle. And she's going to have to go through and just touch every noodle. She may jump from one noodle to another very, very quickly because they're all connected to one another. [00:18:33] So just let her go through and connect all the noodles in her thinking.

 

Pam Farrel: She's actually trying to connect her life to you. It's a compliment. So the guy's like, well, how do I do that? Bill taught him some listening skills. So the woman talked straight, 55 straight minutes. And she finally breathed, and she sat back and she's like, Oh, that was so great. Probably the first time she wasn't interrupted. And that's why she valued it so much. She's like, "That was so great. Okay, if I'm like spaghetti, then what's my husband like? 

 

Bill Farrel: And I said, "Well, we're out of time for this week. But let's get together a couple of weeks and I'll share that with you." Like we've been doing research, but I had just come up with the picture on the spot. 

 

Pam Farrel: Like we knew that there are differences in our DNA, XX, XY, estrogen, testosterone. There are so many differences underneath the skin of each male and female. And God made us that way. In Genesis 1:27, it says God created us male and female. [00:19:33] This was before the fall of mankind. So it's actually God's plan that we are unique in our difference. So the question is, how do we make those differences work for us? So we've been doing all this research, we have the science, we had the Bible, and so Bill just started praying. 

 

Bill Farrel: I have two weeks. I need a food analogy that shows how men process information. And my boys were making toaster waffles one day, and I said, "Oh, I think that might work." Went back to this couple and I explained to them, Well, the way men process information, it looks like the top of a waffle. There's a bunch of boxes. All those boxes are separated from one another by walls. The way we as men operate is the first issue in life goes in the first box. Second issue goes in the second box. Third issue goes in the third box and so on. And we as men, we spend time in one box at a time in one box only." So when a man is at work, he is at work. And when a man's in the yard doing yard work, he is in the yard doing yard work. When he's watching TV, he is watching TV. [00:20:36] 

 

And as we mature, we jump boxes faster, but we still only handle one box at a time. So I explained this to this couple and I said, "Well, sir, it's your turn to talk this week. Is there something you'd like to bring up?" And he said, "Yeah, there really is." I told the wife, "Okay, you have to stay on the subject he's going to bring up. You're going to immediately see other subjects that are related and you cannot bring them up this time." And I'll take notes on it so that we know what subjects you want to bring up later, but you can't bring them up now." I had to be kind of the relationship police that day because six times she tried to change the subject. 

 

Pam Farrel: Back to box number one. 

 

Bill Farrel: And they solved the issue in my office that day. 

 

Pam Farrel: And they were on the brink of divorce. 

 

Bill Farrel: I went home to Pam, I said, "Pam, I think I've got something and we should try it out at a seminar."

 

Pam Farrel: So Bill explained what he had shared about men compartmentalize. And so their brains are like how a waffle looks and women integrate. So their brains look like one noodle laying on a plate of spaghetti that touches every other noodle. [00:21:37] I remember my response was, "How? That is really clever."

 

Bill Farrel: She said it's corny.

 

Pam Farrel: "Corny and cheesy. But God gave it to you. And I trust God and I trust you, Bill. And if it helps somebody, yeah, let's use it. Let's try it. Let's see how it flies." That weekend we had a small conference in our community because we had another book that had come out, Pure Pleasure: Making Your Marriage a Great Affair. 

 

So we had this little marriage conference of 25 to 30 people. It was small. And we decided to add in that men are like waffles, women are like spaghetti segment. Well, it was the hit of the night. Everybody was talking about it. One of the main reasons why is because we shared that every guy on his waffle has a blank box. There are no thoughts. There are no words. There's nothing going on. And guys park in that blank box. [00:22:37] We women get radar. And so we ask, so what you thinking? 

 

Bill Farrel: Which is a really hard question for us, because in that blank box, there are no thoughts, there are no words. As men, we are literally thinking nothing. 

 

Pam Farrel: Nothing. 

 

Bill Farrel: And our wives have a hard time accepting that. So as husbands, we try telling the truth. We say, nothing. And the response we get is, "Well, you can't be thinking nothing. You have to be thinking something. So what is it?"

 

Part of our ministry is helping people realize every male has the ability to think absolutely nothing. 

 

Pam Farrel: Not a blank. Nothing. 

 

Bill Farrel: But because the truth didn't work real well, the next time you ask the question, there's a delay that takes place. Our eyes start darting back and forth because we're looking for a box somewhere nearby that has words in it so that we can answer the question. And then our wives misinterpret the delay. [00:23:35] And they start to think, oh, you don't want to share what you're really thinking. So now you're making something up. And in reality, we were just thinking nothing. 

 

Pam Farrel: Nothing. It was a big hit. We are different in the way we communicate, in the way we manage stress, in the way we romance, in the way we parent. So we just kept building, building, building on the differences. It was so positive that night. 

 

There was a young couple that was a newlywed couple. They saw the article about us in the newspaper and so they came to this little seminar. What we didn't know is he was the weekend program director for the largest talk radio station in San Diego where we're living at the time. And he's like, "Hey, have you guys ever thought about radio? You are so great." 

 

So we came in on Valentine's Day that year. We prayed on the way down. "Okay, Lord, we know that the only super glue that can hold a couple together is You, God. And so let us even on this general market station, let us be brave enough to share the truth about You being the answer. God is love." [00:24:45] 

 

The general manager walked in, he shook Bill's hand, and he's like, "So nice to meet you. I understand that you're a pastor. I would just assume that you would share the spiritual dynamics and how God can improve relationships." So we ended up on radio doing a radio talk show. Men Are Like Waffles, Women Like Spaghetti ended up becoming a book, and then a DVD series that churches can use for small groups or couples can just go through together. Then there's a singles version of Men Are Like Waffles, Women Like Spaghetti, a teenage version. And now it's also translated into more than 15 languages around the world. 

 

Bill Farrel: So often when we talk about differences, it gets viewed in a judgmental way, or somebody's trying to establish superiority. And it's not that way. It's a great benefit to the family. It's a great benefit to marriages. And it's a great benefit to our communities that we bring different gifts to the table. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. [00:25:46] 

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. 

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. 

 

While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more. I've stayed on-site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. [00:26:49] 

 

To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: It sounds like you two celebrate those differences. Maybe the first three differences that come to mind, could you elaborate on those and share what it could look like for a marriage that celebrates rather than resists those differences? 

 

Pam Farrel: Bill likes to quote his favorite philosopher. 

 

Bill Farrel: That's Rocky Balboa. In the Rocky movie, Rocky was dating Adrian, and Adrian's brother, Polly, was concerned about the relationship. So, he approached Rocky one day, and he said, "Hey, what do you do with my sister?" And Rocky's response was, "I got gaps, she got gaps, together we fill gaps," which is really good relationship advice because we all have gaps. 

 

Pam is way better at multitasking than I am. [00:27:50] When we were raising kids and we would put together the family schedule, if I was in charge of the family schedule, I would be hacking stuff out of the kids' lives because I couldn't keep up with it. Where Pam would look at it and say, Oh no, we can do this, we can do that, we can make this happen, they can do this. And she would put it all together in a system that worked without stress. 

 

Pam Farrel: It's the benefit of being a spaghetti. We integrate everything. I like to say, if you look at the way a woman's mind works, it's like one noodle laying on a plate of spaghetti. If you follow that noodle around that plate, it touches every other noodle on the plate. So, we're fabulous at multitasking or toggle tasking, as it's sometimes called today. 

 

So, we can be on the phone with a friend, her life's falling apart. We're like, "Hey, have you listened to Laura on The Savvy Sauce? I think that her show could really help you. Start listening to that podcast." And we're cooking dinner, we're talking to our kids in sign language, telling them to quit fighting. [00:28:52] Can't you see I'm on the phone? We have a load in the washer, load in the dryer, and we can open and shut the oven door with our foot. It's amazing how great women can be at multitasking. 

 

Bill Farrel: Right. And it's amazing when Pam shares that, women applaud her and the men say, "I'm tired just listening to you say that." 

 

Pam Farrel: That brings to the first area of our differences. That's communication. The way we communicate is very different. Bill likes to school guys up on the way women communicate. 

 

Bill Farrel: Right. Because when a wife approaches a husband and says, "Honey, we need to talk," the first thing men tend to do is they go into problem-solving mode. They're going to size up the problem, they're going to provide their male insight into the problem, they're going to solve it right in front of her and be a big hero. 

 

So, we tell men, guys, when it's your wife's turn to talk, first thing you want to do is turn off that fix-it mechanism you were born with, pack up your bags, and go on a listening journey with your wife and let her take the conversation anywhere she wants it to go. [00:29:54] Because what your wife is doing is she's connecting her life to you because it's one of the primary ways that women develop trust. That if a woman thinks you are important, she's gonna connect her life to you because when she gets enough of her life connected to you, trust turns on like a light bulb. And when men see it that way, they're like, well I want my wife to trust me. So now I'm willing to listen without having to solve everything. 

 

Pam Farrel: They get motivated to listen. And then for women, I tell women we can basically out-talk guys. And so what is a gift to the guys, they're packing up their bags and going on a listening journey, what we're gonna do is we're gonna stay in the box. When a guy brings up his subject to talk about, it's actually that subject that he wants to talk about. 

 

We women see the five or six other boxes surrounding that first box and we just start opening up boxes. The problem with that is men are problem solvers by nature. So when they have one box open, that's one problem to solve; when they have two boxes open, that's two problems to solve; three boxes open, that's three problems to solve; and so on. [00:30:59] 

 

Every male has a limit on how many boxes or how many issues he can have presenting at the same time. If we get too many boxes open, we'll know it because one of two things is probably gonna happen. He'll either fire up and become angry and we're like, "What? I was just talking." Or he'll just shut the conversation down and want to escape to one of his favorite easy boxes like maybe the garage and then you're chasing him out the door with your words and nobody's needs are getting met there. One of the gifts that we can give is the gift of staying in the box.

 

One of the questions I get asked most by women is how do I get my husband, my son, my dad, you know my brother to open up. I encourage them with the story of a girl who came to me. We were youth pastors at the time and so Bill was doing a lot of premarital and wedding with college kids. 

 

So she came to me, she's like, "I'm so excited to get married to my fiancé and he's handsome, he's godly, he's a good provider, he's patient, he's kind, but I think something's wrong with him. [00:32:05] I think he is broken. I think what they call it in university is emotionally shallow. And I just started to smile. And the reason why I was holding back a laugh is she just haven't found the key to opening up her guy's heart. And that is men like to live in, dwell in, camp out in boxes they feel super successful in, and avoid boxes they don't feel successful in. 

 

So I asked her, "Hey, tell me about your fiancé" because I'm looking for the box he feels comfortable or successful in. She's like, "He's a racecar driver." I said, "There you go. Baby girl, you just get yourself into that garage and repeat key phrases. Just repeat back what he's talking about about that car." And she's like, "All right. I'll try that." 

 

So she goes out to the car and of course, he's working on the car. So he starts to talk about parts and flywheels and pistons. So she is just repeating back, you know, all these car parts. She doesn't really have a clue what he's talking about but she is interested. [00:33:06] 

 

And he comes out from underneath the car and puts his hand on the hood and he's like, "Wow, nobody's ever taken the time to care about my world like this. Nobody's ever loved me the way you love me. I'm so excited to get married to you. I want to build us a big three-bedroom two-bath house with a balcony out back and a front porch. I'll build a swing set for the kids that will have one day and I'll hang up a front porch swing. And every night when I come home from work, I'll bring you a skinny vanilla latte and I'll just like slide in next to you and hold you in my arms as we watch the sunset. I'll listen to your heart." My friend said, "I never want to leave the garage again."

 

Laura Dugger: That really paints such a clear picture. I love that because so many people have asked specifically about communication so I think you're laying out how we can both do our part. On a bit of a different topic I'm just curious from your years of study and research, what have you found to be the most common differences for the way that each of the genders prefer to relax at home? [00:34:13] 

 

Pam Farrel: Women we talk our way through stress. Like if I'm stressed out, my mom knows it, my best friend knows it, my prayer partner knows it, the clerk at the grocery store will know it. We talk our way through stress. How guys manage stress is they like to go their favorite easy boxes to rest and recharge. 

 

It's kind of like a battery in a battery recharger. When you look at a battery sitting in a recharger, what does it look like it's doing? 

 

Bill Farrel: Nothing. 

 

Pam Farrel: Yeah but it's doing something. It's recharging. So sometimes we look at our husband like, there's so much stress here and you're what watching TV or playing Xbox, you're on your phone, you're doing nothing. But they're doing something. They're recharging. 

 

God kind of helped us girls out in that most of men's favorite easy boxes are actually shaped like boxes when you think about it. The TV screen is shaped like a box, a phone is shaped like a box, a computer screen is shaped like a box, basketball court, baseball diamond, football field, hockey goal, pool table, the refrigerator is shaped like a box and the bed is shaped like a box. [00:35:19] That bed box, that red-hot monogamy box as we call it, that's the favorite box for husbands to go to when they're stressed out. It's kind of like the free square and a little bingo card and they can get there from every other square on their waffle. 

 

Bill Farrel: I have discovered that with Pam relaxing is all about connections. So she wants to connect with the people that are important to her and the activities that lower stress for her. For instance, just recently she took all of our daughter-in-laws to a spa as a Christmas present. The whole idea is we're gonna take a day where we get to relax. Pam loves the pool. I wouldn't say that all women like to relax by the pool but Pam loves the pool. So she's very connected to the water. 

 

When women get to do what they're connected to emotionally, it just lowers stress. And then she got to do that with the people she cares about in this world. [00:36:21] Like we have prayed for our daughter-in-laws for decades. That our boys would meet women who love them and appreciate them and are great partners in life with them. 

 

Pam Farrel: Love God. 

 

Bill Farrel: So being able to spend time with them and celebrate what God is doing is really what helps Pam do her best. There's always a sense of it needs to be significant, it needs to be important, it needs to add value to my life which is different than what guys do. 

 

Like I just recently spent some time with our sons. We went to a 3D archery range where we walked around out in the desert shooting arrows at targets. So people would ask, well, what do you guys talk about? 

 

Pam Farrel: Archery. 

 

Bill Farrel: We are just about shooting arrows. Because for us we're just disappearing into an easy box where when Pam went to the spa with the girls, they talked about their whole lives. 

 

Pam Farrel: Everything. 

 

Bill Farrel: And so for Pam, it's all about being connected to the people she cares about and to activities that lower stress. [00:37:24] And it's very personal. So what works for Pam may or may not work for somebody else's wife because it's a personal thing of what causes stress to come down. So for some women, they like to be very active, for some women, it's arts and crafty type things, for some people it's travel, some people, it's shopping, but the key is that for her it helps lower stress when she doesn't. 

 

Laura Dugger: I'm hearing a common theme from both of you. So first step is to learn about your spouse and what recharges them. And the second piece of ownership, I think that next step sounds like it works best when each of you are gracious with the other person. When you recognize this may be opposite of how I recharge but I want to gift you with that. 

 

Pam Farrel: Very much so. The Bible tells us in Philippians 2 to consider others as more important than yourself and have this attitude that was also in Christ Jesus. [00:38:25] So we're most like Jesus when we take our eyes off self and look at our spouse and say, what will lower their stress? In Red-Hot Romance Tips for Women, it's a little book and I do a 26-day Red-Hot Wife Challenge. I talk about the plimsoll line on a boat.

 

Bill and I live on a boat right now and that plimsoll line is very important. And what that is it's a line that goes around the boat and it shows how much cargo or how much weight a boat can carry before it capsizes. Every person, every man, every woman has that proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. They have a plimsoll line, how much they can carry before they get so stressed out they can't function. 

 

It's very much like Jesus too try to lower the stress of your partner. Do things that will ease their burden. The Bible also tells us to bear one another's burdens. [00:39:25] So when we carry it together, it divides the stress and both of us will come out better. 

 

Bill Farrel: Laura, I would even strengthen what you said by adding we marry what we don't have. Like part of our attraction to the person we're married to is they have something in life we do not possess. At times it's really rewarding and really fulfilling and really fascinating because you get to experience what you couldn't experience on your own. But at other times it's confusing and frustrating because your spouse approaches things differently than you do. 

 

And learning to accept that that's a good addition to your life, learning to be gracious with things you don't understand rather than feeling like you need to correct it all, and learning to applaud the differences and say to one another, well, I could never accomplish what you just did and I would never have come up with that on my own, but I'm gonna learn to see the value in it, it's one of the secrets that makes marriage last for a long time. [00:40:30] 

 

Laura Dugger: That is so well said. If this is your first time hearing The Savvy Sauce, welcome! Our team loves what we get to do and we hope that you'll go back and hear all of our previous episodes. For those of you who have been around for a long time, maybe even from the beginning, would you consider joining Patreon? 

 

If you don't know what it is, all the details are on our website at thesavvysauce.com under the tab "Patreon". You can always email us with further questions at info@thesavvysauce.com. 

 

As we go back just a little bit, you did mention the box that's shaped like a bed. Let's talk about sexual intimacy in marriage because you two have written an entire book on that topic. But I would love to know as it relates to the different genders, what would you like to teach us about sexual intimacy in marriage? 

 

Pam Farrel: We have written Red-Hot Monogamy. [00:41:30] It's like an eight-week guide to turn up the temperature behind bedroom doors, you know, fan the flame on love and romance. But the seed of that book actually came out of Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti. We have two chapters there, one on romance and the other on sexual intimacy. So we'll start with romance. 

 

Bill Farrel: The way you romance your wife is you build connections into her life that remind her she's important to you. Sometimes it's really simple things like calling her in the middle of the day and saying, "I didn't call for any reason. I just called to say I love you." 

 

A friend of mine just recently had his wife ask him, what do you know about me that other people may not know?" And he said a really simple thing, "You like crunchy food." And she went, "You're right, most people don't know that." It reached a connection in her heart that just drew her to him. 

 

As men, we tend to oversimplify everything. We want to be able to say things like, "Hey look, I married you because I love you. Done deal. It's settled. [00:42:32] Instead of staying on the journey of trying to continually connect with our wives. 

 

So I tell men all the time, keep looking for connections. If your wife loves flowers, get her flowers. If she loves notes, leave notes for her. If she loves a certain activities, like if she loves a certain sport or she loves a certain craft, invest in it and buy her things that help her be able to do those things in the midst of her life. 

 

The key is not what you're doing, it's that you're making a connection into her heart. Instead of just saying, hey, are you available Friday, instead send her an invitation. Say, "Hey I would love to spend this Friday with you because it would make it the best day of my week." And on Tuesday, check in with her and see if it's possible. Is the schedule going to work? Are we able to do this? On Tuesday or Wednesday, you should give her some guidelines on how to dress. Don't get too controlling, say you have to wear this, but give her guidelines on how to dress. On Friday, go out and just enjoy the evening together. It can be a very simple date. [00:43:31] But on Saturday, find a way to send her a thank-you note. Send it through email, send it through the mail, post it on social media, but thank her for the time that you got to spend together. 

 

Pam Farrel: And you get bonus points if you go to the restaurant ahead of time and leave a little gift because that means you thought of her while you're doing something else. That's like a double bonus. And if you, the guy, arranges child care, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, you win. 

 

Bill Farrel: The key for us men is it needs to be our goal to reach our wife's heart as often as we can. Like, we're already interested in our wife's body and we are very easily aroused physically. But if we make it our goal, I'm gonna reach her heart as often as I can, it opens up the entire intimate relationship.

 

As men, we're always trying to shortcut the process. And if we will accept that God gave me somebody very different than me, and if I'm willing to make enough connections into her life that our hearts stay connected, you will be very satisfied with your sexual life. [00:44:39] 

 

Pam Farrel: Right. We tell newlyweds all the time, ladies, if you give a man your body, he'll give you his heart. And guys-

 

Bill Farrel: If you give your wife your heart, she'll be willing to give you her body. 

 

Pam Farrel: That works really well with that other-centered attitude there. And how to romance a guy is clear, simple expectation. Say, you want to go to dinner and a movie, a husband thinks it's dinner and a movie and the bingo box that's gonna happen. Tie together his favorite boxes and one of them is the bingo box. I mean, that is an important box to a guy. 

 

Sometimes though, it's super simple to romance a guy. It might be curling up next to him and watching the football game and bring something wrapped in bacon and only during the commercials. Yeah, simple. [00:45:37] 

 

Laura Dugger: Going back to what you were talking about, Bill, it sounds like you're saying these are ways for men to get their wife in each of their boxes, and that helps romance and pursue her. Is that right? 

 

Bill Farrel: When you ladies say that, it's a little frightening to us guys. We're not sure we want you in every box that we have because we like to reserve some for just guy stuff. But in principle, what you're saying is true. That as men, one of the reasons why God calls us to get married is He wants us to expand our horizons. He wants us to learn that life is more complex than we would normally make it. 

 

As men, we're always trying to simplify things and it's not realistic. When we get married, we start to realize, Oh, life is a little more complex than I realized. For us men, it's a learned skill to learn how to appreciate the complexity that you ladies naturally bring to the emotional side of life and the relational side of life, and the activity side of life. [00:46:40] And when we accept it and say, I'm going to learn from you, our lives get richer and fuller and the whole relationship tends to thrive. But the tendency that men fall into is they try to shut their wives down and keep it simple so we don't get overwhelmed. 

 

In Romans chapter 15:7, it says, "Accept one another then just as Christ accepted you in order to bring praise to God." And when you have that attitude of acceptance that I'm not going to try to change you to be like me, I'm going to accept you as God made you, a couple things happen. One is your relationships start to work better because you're cooperating with the way God created us. Because Genesis 1:27 says that God made us in His image and that included making us male and female. 

 

So all your relationships work better because you're cooperating with the way God made things. But also the praise of God settles in on your relationship. And you start to develop a love for one another that is literally stronger than you could come up with on your own because you're in partnership with God who is the author of love. [00:47:48] 

 

Pam Farrel: When we're other-centered, you know, God adds His parts, kind of like the loaves and fishes. If we bring our little lunch, God adds Himself and everybody's needs get met. But it is a learning curve. 

 

Bill Farrel: Well, I created an app for men because men don't tend to be readers. So I created a phone app called Her Best Friend, which is one idea a day for men on how to connect with their wives at a better level and help the relationship keep growing. 

 

Pam Farrel: So really what we're seeing is everybody get tools in your toolbox to appreciate and value your mate the way God made them. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, let's also talk about conflict. How does that play out with our different design as either spaghetti or waffles? 

 

Bill Farrel: It's pretty much guaranteed as a married couple that you're going to have conflict because, again, when you marry what you don't have. So there's times that you just don't see things eye to eye. And unless you're being really passive in the relationship, you're going to have conflict. The key to working through conflict is to decide ahead of time how you're going to face it. Because the one thing I wish people had told us sooner in life is that our emotions always follow our decisions. 

 

Conflict is almost always an emotional event in your life. [00:49:15] I've still yet to meet couples who sat down and said, you know, it would be really good for our relationship if we had a conflict. So I'm just going to create one so we can add value to our relationship. It just doesn't happen that way. You get in conflict because something emotionally hits you. And what happens so often in relationships is you get emotionally upset. You haven't decided ahead of time how you're going to approach it. And so you just start to react to one another. 

 

Pam Farrel: We do have default mechanisms as genders. Studies say that we women, we're the first ones to reach out to a third party when a marriage is on the rocks. It's like we have this intuition that something's wrong and somebody needs to help us here. Where husbands, they don't know what to do with all those emotions. So they just shove it down, shove it down. And they end up having heart attacks and strokes. That's not good. 

 

Bill Farrel: The way that God designed it to work is it's very clear that studies show that the alarm system for relationships is in the female side of the race. [00:50:18] As Pam said, when something's wrong in a relationship, you ladies, you sense it. The natural reaction is when you sense that something is wrong, you start bringing it up, you start talking. You're just like an alarm makes noise when something is wrong. 

 

You ladies will start talking and bringing up the subject because you know something needs to be done. As men, what we tend to do is we get defensive because it sounds like, "Wow, you've already thought about it. You already know what I'm supposed to do. You know what you're supposed to do. You know what the whole world is supposed to do." And we feel like we're way behind in the conversation, so we get defensive, which makes you sense that, Oh, something really is wrong because look, he's getting defensive. So then you bring up more, which causes men to become more defensive. And then you get these crazy cycles as couples where nothing gets done. 

 

Pam Farrel: All emotions are escalated and nothing is resolved. 

 

Bill Farrel: The way it's supposed to work is that God put the alarm system in the female side. He made us men good problem solvers. [00:51:19] And those two are supposed to work together. If as men, we can start to say, Okay, the alarm's going off. I need to start asking questions about what's really going on here. Because for couples who discover what the real issue is, couples are really good at solving real issues. The problem is that they don't get to the real issue because they just get in a flurry with one another. 

 

In our relationship, I would tell you almost every time there's a conflict and it's there because of me, it's because I'm feeling left out. And I can trace it back to two things. One, I'm the youngest in my family. And if you're the youngest in your family, you felt dismissed on a regular basis because everybody else talks for you and everybody else decides for you. So you get this attitude of, Hey, I know what's right, but nobody's going to listen to me. So I'm going to have to manipulate instead. 

 

The second thing is I married a very decisive woman and I grew up with a woman who made all those decisions in our family. [00:52:20] Out of fear, my mom wouldn't let other people participate in the decision-making. So she would just decide for you and tell you what to do. And I married a decisive woman, so she can easily trigger that off in me. If I say to Pam, you are being controlling, that does not go well. 

 

Pam Farrel: No, no, that is not a good statement. 

 

Bill Farrel: If I say to Pam, "Pam, I'm being left out of this decision. Can we revisit this together?"

 

Pam Farrel: So much better. Calms the situation down. In the same way, if it's escalating due to my bad attitude, it's going to be because I'm fearing failure, because first born daughter growing up in a crazy house, I always thought that I had to be the one to carry the burden, to fix the problem, to fix my parents' marriage. So any time when I feel like I'm going to fail, it's going to show up as anger. If I can push pause, "Lord, heal my heart. Let's unpack this baggage. I know that I'm not really angry. I know that I'm hurt. I know that I'm afraid there's some kind of fear here." If I can unpack that before God and then revisit the discussion with Bill, things are going to go better. [00:53:33] That's why we encourage couples to have a conflict covenant. 

 

Bill Farrel: A written conflict covenant. 

 

Pam Farrel: Right. Rules of engagement. How you will manage when you disagree. For example, in Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti, we share several examples of conflict covenants and what should be in them. But some of are: we're going to hold hands every time we argue because I'm just less likely to throw stuff if I'm holding Bill's hand. 

 

Bill Farrel: And my mom was a thrower. So I needed to know when I got married to Pam that she wasn't going to throw plates or food or coffee cups. 

 

Pam Farrel: And, you know, because of the crazy home I grew up in, I mean, things in the conflict covenant are pretty basic. Like I'm not going to swear at you. I'm not going to belittle you. I'm not going to run over you with the truck. 

 

Bill Farrel: Part of our conflict covenant, too, is that we are going to finish every argument. And what we mean by that is almost every argument that a couple gets in is because something you love about your spouse is driving you crazy. [00:54:36] So, like, I love the fact that Pam's creative, but sometimes it feels like she's not using logic. I love the fact that Pam is a decisive woman because she can stand on her own. It's just strong convictions. But when she shares those convictions about me, I'm not so excited about them. 

 

Pam Farrel: Yeah. I love the fact that, Bill, there's a right and there's a wrong. And I love that about him. Man of integrity, right up until the time he's editing my manuscripts with a red pen. Then I'm like, Ah. 

 

Bill Farrel: In marriage, a conflict has been resolved when you have rediscovered what you love about your spouse that was the source of this conflict. 

 

Pam Farrel: People always ask, like, what was your biggest conflict? It's a yearlong argument. It was when our kids were young, I had a 2-year-old and the other boys were in school. I was finishing my education, and Bill had just started as the lead pastor of this church. [00:55:34] So it felt very overwhelming to Bill that I wanted to go back to school and that I did go back to school. 

 

Bill Farrel: It wasn't the activities that Pam was involved in. It was the passion with which she spoke about them. And I had decided in my heart that all those passions could turn on when our youngest son got in school. And she wasn't cooperating with that. The passion is what scared me. I thought if she keeps running with this passion, things are going to get out of balance and we're not going to be able to manage our family and we're not going to be able to run this church ministry and do all this other stuff that's coming out of her heart.

 

Pam Farrel: It was this fear-based process because he thought he was being left out again. Our conflict covenant says that we're going to finish every argument. So we would get together, we would have a conversation, we would hit the same stone wall. We always start these conversations with prayer and we end them with prayer. So then if we don't solve it, we reschedule. [00:56:35] 

 

And so week after week, we're like holding hands, praying for each other, having a conversation, not getting anywhere, pray for each other, reschedule like week after week after week after week for a year. And we're still dating each other. We're still going out on romantic dates as well. So like we always make sure that the happy side stays in, especially when you have something that is a conflict you're trying to resolve. So Bill called up a mentor of his and they had lunch. 

 

Bill Farrel: I basically asked him, "How do I get Pam to be more cooperative?" And his response to me was, "Bill, why do you need to control your wife?" I was really offended by the statement because I thought, "I don't need to control my wife. I'm just trying to become partners with her and figure out how to do this together." 

 

And after I got done arguing with God about that, I realized, "Yeah, I actually was trying to control Him. [00:57:34] I was trying to get her to tone down the passions that were guiding her heart until our kids got a little bit older. 

 

Pam Farrel: So he thought he was just arguing with me. 

 

Bill Farrel: Right. And I realized the reason why Pam couldn't shut all this off is that God had put this dream on her heart. And I had made an agreement early on that any dream that God put on Pam's heart, I would be fully supportive of. It didn't include supporting all of Pam's ideas because Pam can come up with lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of ideas. But if God put it on her heart, I would be all in. 

 

At this point, I realized I had a problem because Pam had captured a dream that God had put on her heart and I had argued with it for a year. So I knew I couldn't just go to her and say, "Oh, Pam, I get it now. I'm sorry for arguing so much. I'm good now." Because it wouldn't be believable after a year of arguing.

 

Pam Farrel: Right. The bigger the offense, the bigger the apology has to be. There's a principle there. So I was up on campus, I was in a class and every day in that class, I always had to stand up for my faith. [00:58:37] I happen to mention, "Bill, hey, I know you're going to be up filming on campus. When you walk by this classroom, I'm going to be inside and I'm sure I'll be standing up for my faith, standing up for Jesus. Can you just shoot a prayer up when you walk by my classroom?" 

 

So I was sitting in this class and the professor is talking about romance literature and that romance is dead. It's always been dead. Romance is just an illusion. No two people can stay in love for a lifetime. It's impossible. And all the women are like, "Yeah, because men are scum," and all the guys are like, "When does this class get over?" And the door pops open. 

 

Bill Farrel: And I walked in with a dozen roses, set them on Pam's desk, gave her a kiss, and said, "I love you, Pam," and walked out the door. 

 

Pam Farrel: So the professor's like, "What? Is it your birthday?" And I'm like, "No." He's like, "Is it your anniversary?" "No." He's like, "Well, why did he interrupt the class then?" And I said, "I believe that Bill wanted to tell me that I see the dream that God has placed on your heart to be a writer, to write a book this year, to finish your degree, and I just want to tell you, I believe in your dream." [00:59:44] 

 

Bill Farrel: See, what I know about Pam is she loves public attention. So I figured if I went into her world and made a statement, it would get the message across that your argument is now over and I'm on board. And that's part of getting to know your spouse. If your wife does not love public attention, this is not a great idea. But if your wife loves it like Pam does, then it's a strong statement. And obviously, the statement got across.

 

Laura Dugger: To see years later that God really has been faithful to all of those desires He put in your heart. And the two of you have done so much of this together. Is there anything else that you two would recommend for both husbands and wives to do so that they can meet the specific needs of their spouse?

 

Pam Farrel: You know, it's really wonderful to just keep a running list. In the back of Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti, we have date nights. So we really encourage the couples to read the book together and then go out on a date and discuss it. [01:00:43] 

 

One of those date nights is to make a list of dream dates that you each would like to go on and then trade lists. The reason why that's important is because if you want to surprise your spouse or if you take transplanting dates like Bill and I do, there's like a running list. You know exactly what is going to please encourage, you know, a delight, bring bliss to your mate because they've given you a list. Now, it's not a list of expectations. It's just a list of ideas.

 

And by doing proactive things like that, you cultivate a desire to get to know your mate at a deeper level. That's probably what's most important is just that desire of curiosity. I'm going to keep learning about you year after year after year because God made you for me. God created your spouse to be a good fit into your life. But we have to value our spouse and get to know our spouse and encourage and affirm our spouse to really keep seeing the upside of those differences. [01:01:46] 

 

Bill Farrel: Two things that I would encourage every couple to do, Laura, is, first of all, is to keep dating. The enemy of intimacy is responsibility. Every decade, the average adult in North America doubles his or her responsibility level. So at 30, you have twice the responsibility you had at 20, and at 40, you have four times the responsibility you had at 20. 

 

So many couples, they just drift apart because the responsibility of life takes over. And the only way to fight it is to deliberately interrupt each other's lives on a regular basis to remind yourselves that you're a couple. The person who's more social can plan more of the dates. But take turns planning dates for one another so you interrupt the responsibility schedule and remind yourself that it's good to be you. 

 

The other thing I would encourage is just keep praying together as a couple and keep it simple. Because you'll never fully understand one another, but when you pray, you get to see into each other's hearts. [01:02:49] 

 

Pam Farrel: Prayer is like a window into the soul of your spouse. 

 

Bill Farrel: We encourage couples, make a commitment to pray together on a daily basis for two to three minutes. Keep it short so that you're always able to succeed and restart every day so there's no guilt. And when you commit to a couple of minutes a day, every once in a while you're going to have a longer time of prayer because you just naturally fall into it. And when you see into the heart of your spouse, it renews your appreciation for one another even though you'll never fully understand each other. 

 

Pam Farrel: That cultivating, that spiritual atmosphere and those spiritual skills is like super glue. There's studies out that say that couples that pray together daily and pray for each other daily rate their red-hot monogamy as the highest possible rating. 

 

Couples that attend church together rate their relationship highest satisfactory red-hot monogamy. Couples that are in a small group Bible study and Bill was a small groups pastor for Dr. David Jeremiah for a while and he loved that stat, that if you're in a small group, you're surrounded by people who believe in long-lasting love. So it helps you have a long-lasting love. [01:04:00] As a result, you have a more satisfying relationship, more red-hot monogamy. 

 

So there seems to be this correlation that the more passion each of us have towards God, then God boomerangs that passion back into our marriage relationship and we have more passion for each other, resulting in better intimacy, more red-hot monogamy. It's a win-win. 

 

Bill Farrel: So the things that make marriage work are actually pretty simple if you do the things that work. If your car needs oil and you spend lots of time washing and waxing it, the effort is incredible, but it's not solving the issue of your car needs oil.

 

Marriage is the same way. When you communicate appreciating your differences, and you resolve conflict appreciating the differences, and you are intimate with one another appreciating the differences, and you work smart in your marriage, it is one of the greatest journeys on earth. [01:04:58] 

 

But if you try to fix one another and change one another and put lots and lots of expectations on one another, then it starts to be very difficult to stay in love with each other. It's like putting spaghetti sauce on waffles and putting maple syrup on spaghetti. But if you appreciate the differences, you get to feast on your love for one another.

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that is so good. You two have laid such an incredible foundation for married couples. What does this look like when the husband and wife become parents? 

 

Pam Farrel: You know, that's when you have to be super proactive. In one of our chapters, we talk about waffles and spaghetti at home. It will go better with you if you sit down and have some conversations about who will do what and when. We have a worksheet in there that lists all the things that typical couples have to manage. You can check off which ones each one of you think is most important. And then the key is to delegate the things that let's say the wife is most passionate about, she gets a set of cards, and things that the husband is most passionate about, he gets a set of cards. [01:06:09] 

 

Bill and I, we actually sit down about every couple years, whenever our life changes, with a set of three by five cards, we write down everything that we need to manage with our kids, with our social life, with our ministry, with when we were pastoring, with our church, with the volunteer things in our community that we were in charge of. And we do an evaluation of priorities. 

 

We write down everything on those cards, then we take those cards and we give them a ranking. A, B, C. C are like, yeah, we're not going to worry about that this year. Another day, another season, another time. Put an elastic band around it. Put those C cards away to revisit next year. The B's are like, yeah, these are pretty important, but... Could anybody else manage them? Can we delegate any of this to our kids, like teach them how to do the dishes or mow the lawn, delegate them to any volunteer that's a part of, you know, our ministry? [01:07:10] 

 

Then with the rest of the Bs and all of the As, we then play a game that's much like the stock market or the card game pits, where you negotiate. Like, I'll take the science fair and bringing treats to the classroom if you take doing the taxes. And so you negotiate. 

 

The key to making all this work, the person who has the card has the authority to do it their way, their timing and the other person just "thank you, thank you, applaud you, I'm so appreciative that you took that card instead of me". So having that attitude of thanking your spouse for picking up half of life, that's going to make it go easier in your whole home.

 

And your kids will pick up on that too because you're delegating to them and they'll grow into leaders. Like we have a book, The 10 Best Decisions Every Parent Can Make, and we talk about the learner leader who loves God method of parenting. [01:08:16] And you know what? It works. Our kids all ended up becoming learners and leaders who love God by just every year celebrating their uniquenesses and delegating more responsibility to them and appreciating being on their team. That's really all we're saying in marriage, too, is just be on your spouse's team. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that idea. For any other ideas, or if people are just intrigued and they want to learn more from the two of you, where can they find you both online? 

 

Pam Farrel: Love-wise.com is our website. Then also we encourage you to hop over to Facebook and like Pam and Bill Farrell. This year we're doing Marriage Mondays at 6:06 Pacific Time and we give you a date idea for that week. Then if wives want to join part of my Red-Hot Wife Challenge group and go through Did you [inaudible 01:09:21] your husband, then shoot us an email. I'll make sure you get in that group. There's a banner that's on our website and you can just click on the banner. We'll make sure the wives get connected and we'll be iron sharpening iron to each other. And then for the guys.

 

Bill Farrel: Love-wise.com, we're connecting God's love and God's wisdom. If you forget all that, just do an internet search on waffles and spaghetti. I guarantee we will own the front page. Again, you can go to the Apple Store or the Google Play Store and Her Best Friend is the app that will help you gain more ideas on how to stay connected to your wife.[01:09:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: Awesome. We will link to all of those on our website and show notes. Bill and Pam, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And as my final question for the two of you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Pam Farrel: I love the verse that is the theme verse for our Love-Wise ministry, and that's Proverbs 19:8. The one who gets wisdom loves life. And we all want more wisdom. Another place in the Bible, it says, walk with the wise and you'll become wise. So, hey, hop on to Love-Wise, become a member of our Living Love-Wise community, look around in your local church, ask to go to coffee with a couple that you admire, and see if they'll be a mentor in your life. Hang out with people who are positive about their marriage and you'll get more positive about your marriage. [01:10:59] 

 

Bill Farrel: And my savvy sauce is hang in there until the next breakthrough happens. Because the way relationships work, and specifically the way marriage works, it goes from breakthrough to breakthrough. Just like the Gospel of Jesus Christ, when you meet Jesus as your personal Savior, there is a breakthrough in life that changes everything. And marriage is a reflection of the Gospel. 

 

So if your relationship is not all that you would like it to be right now, hang in there and pray for the breakthrough. Because when the breakthrough happens, it will change everything, and it will ignite your hearts for one another.

 

Laura Dugger: That's so encouraging. I have been following the two of you for years and I remember reading your books beginning back in high school. So this was such a treat to connect today. Thank you for being my guests.

 

Pam Farrel: Oh, I love that. It's really fun. I met one woman who said, I read Guys Are Like Waffles, Girls Are Like Spaghetti. And then I was single and in college I read Single Men Are Like Waffles, Single Women Are Like Spaghetti. And then we just started premarital counseling because we're getting married this fall and the pastor is taking us through Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti." [01:12:10] I said, you can teach the next workshop. So that's your job now. You get to teach the next workshop and you do such a great job week after week on your podcast. 

 

Bill Farrel: Laura, thanks for helping people be more savvy in their lives.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you again so much. I want to give a quick shout-out to our lovable daughter, [Aila?] Shalom, who is turning three today. Happy birthday, Aila. I love you so much.

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [01:13:11] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [01:14:14] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [01:15:16] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

95 Bonus Episode: Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein

*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.

 

95. Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Jeremiah 30:17 (a) “But I will restore you to health and heal your wounds,’ declares the LORD,"

 

Sue Goldstein is a Sexuality Educator and the Clinical Research Manager at San Diego Sexual Medicine, responsible for sexual medicine educational programming and clinical research. She works with the SDSM team to develop clinical research projects, write protocols and oversee clinical trials.  She also arranges for training in sexual medicine for medical students, residents, fellows and clinicians from all over the country. She works with the Sexual Medicine program at Alvarado Hospital and regional support groups to provide education to providers, students and the public. In addition, she develops programs for The Institute for Sexual Medicine, a charitable corporation dedicated to research and education in the field. Mrs. Goldstein co-authored When Sex Isn’t Good to provide education and empowerment to women with sexual dysfunction. She is managing editor of the journal Sexual Medicine Reviews. Mrs. Goldstein serves on the board of the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health (ISSWSH) as Industry Relations Chair. Past board positions include Global Development Chair, Education Chair, and On-Line Services Chair. She serves on the Education Committee of the International Society for Sexual Medicine and has contributed educational content for the ISSM Online University. She is a 2017 recipient of the ISSWSH Distinguished Service Award. She is a member of the Sexual Medicine Society of North America, the American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists and the Association of Clinical Research Professionals. She is an AASECT Certified Sexuality Educator and an ACRP Certified Clinical Research Coordinator. 

 

San Diego Sexual Medicine

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

When Sex Isn’t Good by Sue Goldstein and Lillian Arleque 

When Sex Hurts by Dr. Andrew Goldstein, Dr. Caroline Pukall, and Dr. Irwin Goldstein 

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Equip for Health

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

Equip for Health is a health and wellness company that works with anyone who wants to achieve great health through simple, sustainable daily changes. They are passionate about improving health from the inside out and having a health journey that is both result-driven and enjoyable at the same time. Check them out today at equipforhealth.com and make sure you use the code SAVVY at checkout to save 10% on their online course. 

Thanks for joining us for this bonus episode. In the past, we have covered sexual intimacy and marriage from various perspectives. Including spiritual, emotional, and psychological. If you want to hear these episodes, they are easy to find on our website, thesavvysauce.com. [00:01:20] 

This week, however, we are looking at sexual intimacy and marriage through a more medical and scientific lens. Early in my career, I remember hearing about this talented Jewish couple who helped people from around the world with a variety of sexual issues. 

We had the privilege of chatting with Dr. Irwin Goldstein yesterday. Today we are going to continue this medical conversation with his wife, Sue Goldstein. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Sue. 

Sue Goldstein: Thank you so much. I'm so pleased to be here with you. 

Laura Dugger: Can you just start us all off by sharing a little bit more about who you are and what you do? 

Sue Goldstein: Sure, Laura. I like to say I'm a jack of all trades and master of most, because I do a lot of things. But officially I'm a clinical researcher, which means that I do research with human subjects, with people, to find out if different treatments help them with their sexual dysfunction. [00:02:18] 

I'm also a sexuality educator. So in my office, I serve as kind of a patient advocate, separate from the clinicians that will treat the patients. And I also work to help educate both public and professionals so they can learn more about sexual health and sexual dysfunction. 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We're talking to general public today. So what information or encouragement would you like to share for a wife whose husband is struggling with erectile dysfunction? 

Sue Goldstein: Well, I think women need to understand there are two different things going on when their husband has erectile dysfunction, or ED. They have the biologic changes that make it impossible for them to have the firm erection they had when they were young. There are also the psychological changes. They may not feel whole. They may not feel like a man. 

So it's important that we think about what's going on from their psychological point of view as well as the biologic. [00:03:18] It's important that a woman makes sure that her partner understands that she still loves him whether or not he's able to have intercourse, that there are other alternatives to have sexual pleasure, and that if he wants to be treated, she should be there with him for treatment. There are so many treatments in this day and age that can help a man. 

There are cases of women who feel like if her partner has ED, it must be that she no longer is attractive to him. And that's totally not true. It's a biologic change that causes the ED through no fault of the partner or the relationship.

So for a woman to be supportive of her husband, to go with to the doctor's appointment, talk to him. If he'd rather not be treated, then help him come up with other ways for the bedroom. There are certainly many ways that a husband and wife can pleasure each other without having sexual intercourse. But if that's what their end goal is, then find a competent physician and get treatment because we really have a lot of alternatives these days. [00:04:22] 

Laura Dugger: Great. Thank you for just checking in with them and doing a little follow-up. Now I want to talk about a topic that is mysterious to some. But with your impressive medical background, I would like to hear your take on how you think women experience orgasm. 

Sue Goldstein: Well, orgasm is that big mystery. First of all, there really are two different questions going on at the same time. Women, it's a matter of what part of their body is going into contraction for orgasm, but it's also what part of the body leads you to get an orgasm. And very often when we talk about different kinds of orgasms, we get those two conversations mixed up. 

The most common way that a woman gets an orgasm is through clitoral stimulation. This also will end up with a clitoral orgasm. But the anterior vaginal wall, which we call the G-spot, that is extremely sensitive. And if that area gets stimulated, you may get a more intense orgasm. [00:05:26] 

People talk about a vaginal orgasm. We talk about La petite mort, which is really a time where you lose all consciousness. I mean, you're not going to pass out. But a very strong orgasm actually turns off blood flow to a certain part of your brain so that you actually may have music playing in the background, and you don't even notice it's there until you sort of come back to normal afterwards. 

So the question is, do we have an internal orgasm and an external orgasm? Do we have an orgasm that's stimulated because of the clitoris, because of internal? 

Women who are highly orgasmic can get stimulated and reach orgasm from having their nipples stimulated, which is a wonderful opportunity for those people who perhaps are spinal cord injured and they only have feeling in the upper part of their body, or a woman who has lost sensation through some kind of surgery. 

We have the LEEP procedure where they actually burn a portion of the cervix. [00:06:28] And women complain when they have that because there are three different kinds of nerves that actually innervate the cervix. That although if you put something against the cervix, you can't feel it, but if you destroy those nerves, you may lose your ability to have an internal orgasm. 

So there's a lot of complications, but the good news is that we have a lot of different areas in our body that are really erogenous zones. You think about Mae West, for those of you old enough to remember, blow on my ear and I'll follow you anywhere. Behind your ear is an erogenous zone. 

So if you don't get an orgasm through the more traditional methods for whatever reason, there are other parts of your body that can be stimulated. Some people only get an orgasm once in a long while, and some people get 5, 6, 7, 8 orgasms every time they have sexual activity. Everyone's different. There's no right and there's no wrong, except if you've never reached orgasm. 

Then it may actually be a physiologic problem. We've actually found women who don't even know, but they have no feeling inside their vagina. [00:07:32] They don't know that. We find that out on testing, and then we can potentially, for some of these women, treat them and they reach orgasm. But you also may not reach orgasm because your partner doesn't do enough foreplay with you. There are so many variables. 

If you feel you are having trouble with orgasm, then seek a specialist. Your gynecologist may not really have enough knowledge about this. You may need to go to a sexual medicine specialist. But in sexual medicine, we say, if you are different from somebody else, that doesn't mean anything. Everyone is their own norm. But if you have a problem that distresses you, that bothers you, if you're not reaching the kind of orgasm you did when you were younger, for instance, it's now a little blip when it used to be a volcano, you have a right to seek help and try to restore. That's sort of my mini-lecture on orgasm. 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And just how we were designed, you said, to have so many different types of orgasm. But let me just clarify. With treatment, do you believe it's possible for every female to experience orgasm? [00:08:38] 

Sue Goldstein: I think that the answer is yes and no. We are still learning so much that we probably don't know all the reasons why women don't experience orgasm, but we're slowly learning more and more. So yes, I believe that as long as we can discover the etiology, in other words, what is the problem, then we can have a solution. It's just we haven't yet discovered what all the problems are. 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's very clear. From the flip side, what are you noticing with the women who are more easily orgasmic in any of these ways? Is there any type of pattern that you've identified? 

Sue Goldstein: Well, for a lot of women, it may be as they age, as they're going through menopause, it may be after they have a childbirth, they get what's called HSDD, hypoactive sexual desire disorder. And if you lose interest, you may still have sexual activity with your partner because you're having mercy sex or duty sex. You love your partner, you don't want him to stray, you want him to feel good, and so you have sex, and your body still responds, you still arouse, you still have an orgasm. [00:09:43] But it may be that little bump instead of the mountain. 

So we find if we treat the HSDD, that will improve arousal and orgasm if that's the particular problem. That's very common because HSDD is the most common sexual dysfunction among women. That's easily treated now. 

We have two FDA-approved treatments for premenopausal generalized acquired HSDD. That means that you once had normal desire, and now it's less, and that it happens in all instances, not just with one particular partner. So we can use those off-label for postmenopausal women. Matter of fact, in our office, we even use the mock label for men. But if you increase that desire, the data show us that those same medications also help with arousal and orgasm.

We have a thing called responsive desire. So once you're in the act, your body starts to have more desire, and so then it arouses more, and it's orgasm. And that is so common. It is the most common sexual dysfunction. [00:10:49] 

The other thing with orgasm that we have recently discovered, because we have a unique collaboration with a neurophysiologist named Barry Komisaruk at Rutgers University, and with a minimally invasive spine surgeon named Choll Kim here at Alvarado Hospital, we have discovered that some women actually have an annular tear or a cyst in the cauda equina, which is actually the tail end of the spinal cord. 

If the MRI is read by a radiologist, he's going to say, "Oh, it's incidental, it doesn't mean anything." But these very, very small defects sometimes result in a woman having severe pain or having persistent genital arousal, but sometimes it results in a woman having no sensation inside her vagina. 

We had a patient who hadn't had an orgasm in 30 years. This new collaboration with the spine surgeon, we discovered that she had just a minor annular tear, and he repaired it surgically. And she go home that day with a bandage on her back. That's all it is. It's not a big open surgery. [00:11:56] And she came back in for testing a week later, and she had full sensation, and now she's able to reach orgasm. 

Those are two very different ends of the spectrum of why a woman had trouble with orgasm. So my point was that until we know it's wrong, we can't make it better. But as we're discovering more and more things that can go wrong, it gives us an opportunity to make more and more women better. 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. What kind of life change are you seeing for these women? 

Sue Goldstein: Our women who are treated report to us that when they have HSDD, they don't feel like a whole woman. They feel beige. They just don't feel like really participating in life. And when we treat them, they notice that not only do they feel whole again, but there's a playfulness in the relationship with their partner that they didn't realize was missing. 

They love their partner. They've had a good relationship. That wasn't why they had no desire or low desire. But it's the biochemistry in the brain has changed. And these new medications change the biochemistry in the brain, bring it back to where it used to be so that it brings a whole playfulness, a whole new dimension into that relationship. [00:13:06]

Laura Dugger: I love that you've just offered hope to people listening. I'm also curious, from your career in education and research, are there any commonalities that you've noticed among women who do struggle with sex? 

Sue Goldstein: You know, the only commonality is that they're all women. But the fact is that this knows no cultural lines, no age, no ethnicity. All women can get any kind of sexual dysfunction. It's not that all women get it, but all women can. Then all women go through menopause. The majority of women going through menopause because of the change in the hormonal milieu will have changes to their sexual function. But again, you can treat menopause, and that will restore sexual function. 

Can we talk about menopause for a couple of minutes? 

Laura Dugger: Let's do, please. 

Sue Goldstein: Okay. Women know they have vasomotor symptoms going through menopause. And most people think once those vasomotor symptoms are done that they're finished with menopause, and now they're post-menopause, which means they're no longer in menopause. [00:14:11] Well, that's wrong. Post-menopause and menopause are the same thing. 

Once you haven't had your period for 12 months, you are technically in menopause, unless, of course, you've been surgically, your ovaries have been removed, and then you're immediately in menopause. You no longer have the hormones going through your body that do a lot of different things, in particular, keep your genitals healthy. So women think that when they no longer have hot flashes, they are done. 

That's their choice, that they choose not to do anything. But the fact is, if you choose to go through menopause and not have any hormones, essentially your genitals go back to where they were when you were a little girl, before you had hormones. But they get small, they get dry, they get cracked, they get painful. 

Myself I'm on hormones because I want to stay healthy. And people will say to me, "Well, I want to go through menopause." And my response is, If you had hypertension, would you go through that naturally, or would you take an antihypertensive? [00:15:11] If you had diabetes, would you do that naturally, or would you want to take a medication? If you had cancer, would you deal with that naturally, or would you want to fight it? 

So to me, menopause is just another biologic change, and I choose to treat it so that I can stay healthy. That keeps my genitals healthy so that I can have intercourse without pain, without cracking and bleeding. And ladies, if you opt not to take any hormones, and you don't have to have systemic hormones, that's a different thing, but local hormones, in other words, medications, estrogens, and androgens, that you put on your genitals, prescribed by a physician or a nurse practitioner. Please do not do this on your own. 

But if you choose not to do that, everything will — atrophy is the word — dry up. Your vagina is an accordion. The accordion goes away. The skin itself will get thin. So if you're trying to have intercourse, it may crack and bleed. 

But all of that can be restored if you go on hormones, even if you don't have them right away. It will take a little time, but we can restore health so that you can have pain-free intercourse. [00:16:18] Because if that's your goal, then you have a right to get that treatment and have enjoyable sex. 

One of my jobs as a sexuality educator is to empower women. And I always say the educated patient is the empowered patient. You need to know about your own body, and you need to make shared decisions with your clinician, but ultimately it's your decision. And I would never say to a woman, you have to be on hormones. That's an individual's choice. But what I do say is you should find out the correct data and not get your medical information from a newspaper. You should find out what the real data are and make an informed decision. 

So my job as an educator is to say, well, educate yourself, and then make a decision. Don't just assume there's nothing out there to help you. Because too many clinicians don't want to start the conversation. Women believe there's nothing to help them. So if you're listening to this broadcast, please, if you have a sexual problem, you start the conversation with your clinician. [00:17:19] You may think he or she is going to be embarrassed if you start the conversation, but your doctor may actually be very relieved that you started it because they didn't know how to start that. 

One of the things we teach in our courses is how to start that conversation with the patient. Because patients want to hear what's available for them. Patients need to hear, you know, you're 60 years old, you've been in menopause for eight years, you're probably painful when you're having sex, right, Mrs. Jones? It's nice for you to know that you aren't the only one experiencing that. 

And then because that conversation has started, it's an opportunity to say, okay, what can you do for me so that I no longer have painful sex? Because you have that right. 

Laura Dugger: I love it. And I love that you point just to that word, restoration, and that hope is there. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

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Laura Dugger: What are the differences and similarities between male and female experience of sex in general?

Sue Goldstein: That is a great question. For men, all sex is good, whether it's good sex or bad sex. For women, good sex is good, and bad sex is miserable. I'll go a little further. For instance, if a man, as he ages, isn't quite as hard as he used to be, he can still, I'm being very graphic, he can still enter his partner's vagina, he can still ejaculate, and he has good sexual experience. But because he's not as hard, it doesn't enter her vaginal canal quite the same way. It's squishy, for lack of a better word. And so she feels like he's pounding into her, and so she may have pain that she wouldn't experience if he were harder. [00:20:31] 

I mean, right there is literally a physical difference. She's miserable. All she can do is say, just get it over with already. I love you, but I'm miserable. And he is, "Wasn't that great, honey? I had a good time." That is a huge difference. 

Then the other difference, I think, is the fact that women are not necessarily comfortable saying to their partner, do this, do that, or comfortable saying to their clinician, I have a problem. Whereas I think a man is much more forthcoming if he has an issue. Not 100% of the time. Certainly, there are many men who don't want to talk about it. They may hide it from their partner. They may go to the doctor and get medication, whether it's oral, a pill, or injection that he does on the side because he doesn't want his partner to know. But he's more likely to get treated than she is, and she may just be totally in the dark. But to me, that's kind of a huge piece. 

The other thing is that a man doesn't need foreplay, and a woman needs foreplay. We worry, you know, did a woman not reach orgasm because he just had a firm erection? Two, three minutes later, he's done, and it hasn't had enough time for her. [00:21:39] So if she can have foreplay, then she's sort of primed and ready. And if he doesn't last a long time, then she has a better opportunity to reach orgasm. 

So that's why when we talked before about orgasm, we talked about etiology, find out what's going on. Let's find out if it's really a problem with her or if it's a problem with him. If she has discomfort, is it because he's not firm enough? So all sex is good to a man, but not all sex is good to a woman. 

Laura Dugger: One of our listeners specifically reached out to learn more about the O-Shot. So can you share why that's actually a marketing gimmick? 

Sue Goldstein: I have to tell you that that bothers me so much. O-Shot is platelet-rich plasma, which is an experimental therapy, and a lot of places around the world do platelet-rich plasma, including San Diego Sexual Medicine, where I work. We do it as an experimental therapy. We tell our patients, you know, try it and see if it makes any difference. [00:22:39] 

There are no data that show giving a woman PRP in her clitoris or in her G-spot makes any difference. The fact is that O-Shot is a trademarked name or a patented name. I'm not sure which it is. But using an O-Shot means you're getting discounted purchase of the equipment through being part of this larger buyer organization, and at the same token you have to charge a specific price. So it's all a marketing gimmick. It may help somebody. It may not help somebody. But I believe in being upfront. 

In our practice, as I said, we would offer one injection and say, if it makes a difference, we can try it again. Although I have to tell you we very rarely use PRP for women. We use it a lot for men with erectile dysfunction. And when I say a lot, we offer it. If it seems to help, we'll say, why don't you try it another couple of times? We don't use it very often for women. 

But the most important thing as a researcher is show me the data. And there is not a single publication that I am aware of showing the efficacy of PRP in the clitoris, PRP in the G-Spot, or what we call the O-Shot. So buyer beware. [00:23:50] 

It's important that you know what you're doing. I always say people spend more time shopping for a used car than they do shopping for a physician. And really do your research before you go someplace. Anyone who says this is going to work for you... No treatment, no treatment works 100% of the time. And anyone who tells you this always works is a liar. It's just not possible. 

Everyone knows Viagra. We know Viagra is great. That's a trade name. In my world, I would say Sildenafil. But it only works in 60% to 70% of people. Most of our sexual health treatments, our sexual medicine treatments work in 60% to 70% of treatments. Even aspirin, no matter what you take, there is no medication that works 100% of the time in 100% of people. Buyer beware. 

Laura Dugger: I love hearing your passion because I can tell you're protective of your patients and you do want what's in their best interest. 

If you've benefited in any way from The Savvy Sauce, we would love to invite you to become a patron. [00:24:53] If every listener gave just $1 per month, it would completely offset all our production costs. We want to keep majority of our content free to the public, and one way to do that is with your help. Please consider joining Patreon today and finding out what perks you can receive for pledging $2, $5, or even $20 per month. 

So are there any other sexual products or sexual trends that we need to be aware of or even avoid because they're also falsely advertised? 

Sue Goldstein: Whoa, that's a big question. I think we have to be careful of some of the compounding pharmacies that promote compounded medications that are available as FDA-approved medications. People don't understand the word bioidentical. People think that bioidentical means it's compounded. 

Bioidentical means it's the same chemical structure as the chemical that's naturally made in your body. [00:25:53] So when we use bioidentical estrogens and bioidentical testosterone, it means that if we give you the medication, we can then draw blood and we can see how much of it is in your body because it's identical to what your body naturally makes. 

The FDA has many bioidentical estrogen products that are available for women. And unfortunately, there are no testosterones for women. They're all for men. But what we use is we would much rather use a testosterone that's been FDA-approved for men. And by FDA-approved, it means it's been checked for safety and for efficacy so we know it's not harmful and we know it works. So we use that but in the correct dose for a woman. We wouldn't use the same amount for a man. 

But there are a lot of compounding pharmacies or companies that promote their compounded estrogens and testosterones, and they push making people think that that's the only way they can get treatment. Compounding pharmacies are wonderful. [00:26:54] We have medications that are not available any other way, and we depend upon them. 

But when you have a choice between something that's been approved by the FDA and something that's not, I would caution you to always use the one that's in the FDA. And that's really your clinician, how they write the prescription. But there are some clinicians that have these hormones they keep in their office and they sell them. It's not that it's a scam, but it's one thing that, are they there because they want to make you better or are they there because they want to make money? 

I always tell people we aren't in the business of making money in our practice. We're in the business of making men and women better, of healing them from their sexual health problems. And you know when you help men and women, the money will come. I mean I'm not rich. We put a lot of our money back into our practice because we do a lot of our own research that we pay for ourselves. But I will never starve. I will never be naked. 

If you do the right thing, you will always be okay. This is really my message. I mean make sure you're going to a clinician. [00:27:56] It can be a physician, a nurse practitioner, physician assistant. Those are the providers that can prescribe for you. And sex therapists who aren't prescribers, but they provide a different kind of treatment, just make sure that they're legitimate and they're not there because they're trying to sell you a product. 

Typically we see these men's health clinics for men where they promote inappropriate treatments for patients who shouldn't have them. We don't see them as much for women except for in the hormones. So be careful. Make sure you're getting a bioidentical hormone because otherwise we can't tell what's in your body. And make sure if it's available as an FDA-approved product, that that's what your clinician prescribes. 

Laura Dugger: Thank you for that education piece. We could go so many different directions. So as we're winding down, is there anything else that we didn't get a chance to cover today that you wanted to mention? 

Sue Goldstein: I think there are so many different kinds of sexual dysfunctions that people don't know about. One of them is the scariest. It's persistent genital arousal disorder. And it's a situation we're finding now that it's often caused by that defect in the cauda equina, in the spine that we talked about before. [00:29:03] But it causes a woman to have a feeling of constant arousal. There may be no actual physiologic arousal, but in her brain she feels aroused. 

The reason I want to broadcast this now is because we believe it's far more common than we knew. And these women are desperate. When they talk to their local provider, very often the provider's never heard of it. We've heard horror stories of a male gynecologist who said to the woman, Oh, I wish my wife had that. I mean, that's devastating when you have something that you can't even leave your house without having this awful feeling. 

We've had a school teacher, if she'd ever told anyone she had this, they would think she was being aroused by the children in her classroom. And of course, she's not. There's no desire. There's no interest. It's just your body is turning on you and doing this. So I caution anyone listening who knows of someone with PGAD, do not make fun of them. This is a devastating disease. Women kill themselves every year because they can't function with it.

If you're listening and if you have PGAD, reach out to your provider. If you can't find someone who can help you, reach out to us. We understand this disease state. It's horrible. But we've been able to help a lot of women. Some we've been able to cure, some we've been able to help them get under control. 

Keep your eyes on the prize. Do not lose hope. There is help out there. Every year we're learning more and more and more. And what we don't know today in our field, maybe we'll know tomorrow, maybe next year, maybe the year after. But this is one of the most devastating disease states in sexual medicine. So I just want to share that, to give women hope that we're helping these people. [00:30:37] And God willing, someday we won't lose anyone to suicide, but we'll be able to help everyone.

Laura Dugger: So true. I'm glad that you mentioned that. And whether that's someone's struggle today, or if there's another issue, and they're curious to find out more from you, where can they find you online, Sue? 

Sue Goldstein: We're sandiegosexualmedicine.com, or if your fingers are too tired, you can actually write sdsm.info, like Sam David, Sam, Mary. You can find me, you can find everyone in our practice, you can find out a lot of information about various disease states that we treat, and some of the treatments that we can do.

Or go on Amazon. I co-authored a book called When Sex Isn't Good. My husband co-authored a book called When Sex Hurts. When you come here as a patient, if you're a pain patient, we give you a copy of When Sex Hurts, otherwise we give you When Sex Isn't Good. 

When Sex Isn't Good goes back to the 1990s, but much of what we said still is true there, only we have the new treatments for HSDD and new treatment for PGAD. But they're there to educate, to empower, and to give women hope, because that ultimately is my goal. [00:31:42] 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We will link to all of that in our show notes, and also on our "Resources" page of our website, so listeners can find it very easily. Sue, I just have one final question for you. We're called the Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So we would love to hear today, what is your Savvy Sauce? 

Sue Goldstein: My Savvy Sauce is the advice I gave to my daughter and my daughter-in-law as they each had babies, and they weren't going back into the workplace right away. I think every woman needs to have something that they're passionate about. And it's something that's not involving your partner, your children, something that means something to you that you have ownership of.

I mean, I wake up every day loving coming to work, and I'm passionate about it, but I do that with my husband. I tell people he had a dream, and one day I realized it was my dream too. 

To me, I love Pilates. It keeps my body healthy. And when I'm on the Reformer, my body is totally focused on my own muscles and nothing else in the world. [00:32:42] I love to read. I love fiction. It's an escape for me. But most important thing to me is singing. I sing in my temple choir, and my husband comes to hear me sing. I sing in my car, and I'm alone. I always have music station on. That is my source of pleasure and focus. 

When my children were growing up, I was working part-time, and I didn't want to get lost in that great big world. I was able to join a group that every week we had rehearsal, we performed. So to me, having that thing that was mine, I own. My husband likes to think he sings, he can't. He doesn't really sing. But having my music... I play piano. I play guitar, I sing. Having my music and the passion that goes around the music, that's my savvy sauce. 

Laura Dugger: I love it. Sue, you are a fascinating and clearly a brilliant woman. I just really appreciate you teaching us about this topic, especially because it's not often discussed publicly with such accurate information. [00:33:41] So I hope listeners found this chat to not only be informative, but also helpful and practical so they can enrich this area of their lives with their husbands. Sue, thank you for being my guest today.

Sue Goldstein: Thank you, Laura.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:34:44] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:45] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:45] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

94 Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments with Dr. Irwin Goldstein

*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears

 

94. Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments with Dr. Irwin Goldstein

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Psalm 139:13+14 (NIV) “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.” 

 

Dr. Goldstein has been involved with sexual dysfunction research since the late 1970's and has authored more then 350 publications in the field. His interests include penile microvascular bypass surgery, surgery for dyspareunia, sexual health management post cancer treatment, persistent genital arousal disorder, physiologic investigation of sexual function in men and women, and diagnosis and treatment of sexual dysfunction in men and women. Dr. Goldstein is Director of Sexual Medicine at Alvarado Hospital, Clinical Professor of Surgery at University of California, San Diego and practices medicine at San Diego Sexual Medicine. He is also Editor-in-Chief ofSexual Medicine Reviewsand past Editor ofThe Journal of Sexual Medicine. He is Immediate Past President of the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health and a Past President of the Sexual Medicine Society of North America. He holds a degree in engineering from Brown University and received his medical degree from McGill University. The World Association for Sexual Health awarded the Gold Medal to Dr. Goldstein in 2009 in recognition of his lifelong contributions to the field, in 2012 he received the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health Award for Distinguished Service in Women’s Sexual Health, in 2013 he received the Lifetime Achievement Award by the Sexual Medicine Society of North America, and in 2014 he received the ISSM Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Society for Sexual Medicine. He is happily married to his college sweetheart Sue, and together they have three children and five grandchildren.

 

San Diego Sexual Medicine

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

Equip for Health is a health and wellness company that works with anyone who wants to achieve great health through simple, sustainable daily changes. They are passionate about improving health from the inside out and having a health journey that is both result-driven and enjoyable at the same time. Check them out today at equipforhealth.com, and make sure you use the code SAVVY at checkout to save 10% on their online course. 

We've received feedback that you all especially appreciate the episodes about sex. Men and women have written to us to share how this podcast feels like a safe place to learn more about helpful treatment options that are available for this private part of their lives. [00:01:18] 

When I first practiced marriage and family therapy, my husband and I were living in San Diego, and I was told about Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who practiced in San Diego and was one of the most sought-after sexual medicine doctors in the world. 

As a therapist, we often collaborate with medical professionals to offer clients the best care possible, so I frequently referred clients to Dr. Goldstein. Now, I'm excited for you to hear this interview with him, as we discuss a few topics we've never discussed before on the Savvy Sauce, including erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, and other fascinating relationships between other parts of our bodies and our genitals. God's intricate design of our bodies continues to amaze me, and this is an exciting field to learn more about. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Goldstein. 

Irwin Goldstein: Laura, thank you so much for doing this. It's a privilege and an honor, and I look forward to a great next hour. [00:02:18] 

Laura Dugger: I've been looking forward to this for a long time. For listeners who are unaware, your work is very unique. So will you just start us off by sharing how you originally got into this field? 

Irwin Goldstein: I had no idea I was going to end up doing sexual medicine. It was an evolution of a series of forces. I'm from Montreal, Quebec, Canada, and I was a classic Canadian playing hockey and excelling in hockey. I ended up being recruited to Brown University in Providence to play four years of college hockey, which was an absolute blast. I enjoyed every minute of it. 

While I was at Brown, I snuck in a biomedical electrical engineering degree. That was the era of Vietnam, and I decided that there were really no jobs for engineers. That was a sad realization. A bad time. My brother was an M.D., he suggested that I do my engineering through sort of an M.D. relationship. [00:03:18] So I met with the engineers at Brown, and they said that it would be a wise idea to do biomedical engineering via an M.D. degree. 

So I ended up going back to Montreal, McGill University, to do medical school, and I fell in love with medicine. You know, medicine is... each organ in the body is a machine. It's like an amazing engineering machine. I ended up going into urology as a subspecialty area. We helped people. It was a lot of fun. We had a lot of procedures, a lot of diagnostic procedures. 

Through serendipity, the doctor who was my mentor trained in 1973. What happened in 1973 in our field is that a penile implant was developed, and he was one of the original penile implanters. When he started doing penile implants... my first penile implant was 1976. That takes me way back. But urologists entered the world of sexual medicine through the ability to help men with erectile dysfunction through surgery. [00:04:17] 

At the time, in the 70s, it was pretty much exclusively sex therapy, and only a small percentage of people thought they had a biologic basis. When I was entering urology in 1977, we could totally change a man's life who had struggled through, you know, sex therapy approaches, psychiatry approaches, mental health approaches. 

And the reality was we didn't know how penile erection occurred physiologically. There was no physiologic understanding of that. So in 1980, when I graduated urology, I applied to the NIH, and I was awarded a three-year clinical research investigator award, and we studied the erectile physiology. I was funded, at the end of the day, for 23 consecutive years to study erectile physiology. 

One of the outcomes of our research was actually to describe what was the actual chemical involved when you were sexually aroused that actually activated the erectile tissue. That ended up being nitric oxide. [00:05:17] So in 1991, our paper was the very first paper describing nitric oxide. 

That, of course, led to Viagra, and that led me to paths that were remarkable. I mean, how many billions of people have used Viagra? I was the first author on the Viagra paper in the New England Journal of Medicine. We got tons of phone calls. My staff hated me throughout that process. 

But what was fascinating by all the people calling us, asking us about Viagra, more than 90% were women. That was another major event in my life, realizing that there was no parallel path in gynecology to the parallel path in urology for sexual medicine. 

In 1998, we started our first fellowship for women sexual health. Basically, from 1998 to the present, we just opened up a sexual medicine clinic for men and women. It's really been an exciting opportunity to have here in San Diego now, a biopsychosocial facility, you know, 6,000 square feet. [00:06:20] 

We have two pelvic floor physical therapists. We have a sex therapist. I have two NPs, nurse practitioners. We have about six or seven medical assistants. We do about seven or eight research projects and clinical research for studying how things happen and what treatments are available. We do them in a sham-controlled or placebo-controlled prospective trial. Really very cool all the amazing things that are going on. It's been the most joyful ride that I could possibly imagine. So I didn't plan on going to this field, but through serendipity, it took me here. 

Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating. Now I would just love for you to tell us your mission at San Diego Sexual Medicine Clinic and what sets you apart and makes you one of the most sought-after doctors in the world. 

Irwin Goldstein: Wow. That's quite an accolade. Thank you for saying that. I don't know if it's true. But our vision is that we're an international facility that is dedicated to the study of the diagnosis and treatment of men and women or humans with sexual health issues. [00:07:28] We're completely dedicated to that endpoint. 

We spend hours with individual patients. We see the different biopsychosocial aspects, and we sort of merge discussions from psychology to biology to pelvic floor physical therapy and sort of better manage patients with these issues. It's so amazing and shocking how few facilities are really dedicated to that, where there's so many people who have these problems. But we've managed to be at least in San Diego now for 13 years. 

Laura Dugger: Previously on the Savvy Sauce, we've given so much airtime to women and sexual issues, and listeners can go back through our previous episodes and see all of these are still available to download. But now, Dr. Goldstein, I think it would be helpful to first focus more on men, and specifically, let's start with erectile dysfunction. If you don't mind sharing, what is it, who is affected, and what are the treatment options available? [00:08:33] 

Irwin Goldstein: I guess fundamentally, from a sexual perspective, the ability to achieve and maintain an erection that is sufficiently rigid to achieve vaginal penetration. His inability to do that creates shame and embarrassment and humiliation and all kinds of negative aspects.

The physiology of this has only recently been described. It's a pretty fascinating system where there are two erection chambers in the penis. There's an artery that delivers sufficient pressure that would allow the penis to become rigid, at least in an axial direction, in the up-and-down direction, so that it can penetrate through the vagina. 

How much force must the penis bear without buckling, i.e. its axial rigidity, to actually penetrate the average vagina in the United States? It's one kilogram, 2.2 pounds. That's the average vagina. That's not every individual vagina. [00:09:34] 

My whole point is, coming from an engineering background, it became very obvious to me that you could make something as emotionally complex and complicated, yet describe it biologically as a... I don't want to say simplistic, but more hydraulic-based explanation. 

I just had a 21-year-old person who flew to San Diego from Brooklyn to get evaluated because, at age 15, he had acne, took a medication called Accutane, and he believes the Accutane injured his ability to have an erection. He didn't understand why he had these problems. His parents were there. It was a big deal. We unraveled it with his three-hour visit. He ended up having scarring in his erection chamber that we identified on what was called a grayscale ultrasound. 

I guess my whole point of erectile dysfunction, there are psychological reasons, there's neurologic reasons, there's vascular reasons, there's hormonal reasons. [00:10:39] It's just really a detective's game to basically understand the diagnosis. 

For this 20-year-old who just was in the office, the explanation was, you can't study what's wrong with an erect penis, i.e. erectile dysfunction when you study it in the flaccid state. That point is so obvious, yet it's so apparent that most doctors can't make a man in an office have an erection to actually study it and find out what's wrong with it. 

Once you realize that, that's what you have to do, you have to generate a facility that has the ability to achieve penile erection in anyone who walks in the door, so that you can then study it in the erect state and figure out what's wrong with it. 

Depending on the diagnosis, management is the outcome. If it's a hormonal problem, we of course will deal with hormones. If it's a neurologic problem, we have a collaborative effort with a spine surgeon. One of the amazing things we're doing here, our work with spine surgery is simply unbelievable. [00:11:40] We can deal with neurologic issues and then the vascular issues, depending on what we find on the ultrasound studies. 

In summary, erectile dysfunction is the inability to sustain this one kilogram of force where the penis now buckles with the application of a force on the glans penis. Our job is to have the penis be able to bear a kilogram or more weight using as many strategies as we can, both physically and psychologically. 

Laura Dugger: With that, it sounds like it's not targeting just one age group or one demographic of males. Is that right? 

Irwin Goldstein: Yeah. We just actually placed a penile implant in a 16-year-old. That's a little young, but he was in a major car accident, had a bad pelvic fracture, and was unable to have an erection. He was really miserable. We spent a lot of time with him, a lot of psychological help. The penile fracture really injured the nerves and the blood vessels to his penis and both he and his parents decided that was the correct thing to do. He's absolutely now in college, doing well, being happy, being not embarrassed, and having a normal life. [00:12:54] 

We see from teens all the way up to 90-year-old men. I haven't dealt with a 100-year-old person yet, but I would definitely work with anyone at any age.

Laura Dugger: For someone listening who's curious about this, whether they struggle with this or maybe their spouse does, what are some warning signs that would alert them they may be struggling with erectile dysfunction? 

Irwin Goldstein: The penis has to be hard enough to enter the vagina and stay hard to maintain thrusting. A penis that sort of loses erectile rigidity in the process of thrusting or isn't rigid enough to enter the vagina in the first place or any orifice in the first place is very frustrating to the person. 

There is usually an explanation for it, and it requires some person with detective skills to unravel the various reasons. There are biological, psychological, and musculoskeletal. A facility that we happen to have assembled, which has the ability to look at all the different angles and contributions to the dysfunction is I think the ideal way to understand what's wrong. [00:14:04] 

Once you understand what's wrong, we're really good at fixing it, because it takes out the mystery. If it's a hormonal thing, we'll work until we resolve the hormonal thing. Neurologic, we'll fix the neurologic. If it's vascular, we'll really work in depth with vascular. We have some really new, fabulous, what we call disease modification strategies, as well as some very good symptomatic treatment strategies where we're able to really help the penis get and maintain its rigidity so that function can occur. 

Laura Dugger: I'm so grateful for people like you who are able to do this if someone maybe has experienced trauma, or you talked about that male who had been in a car accident. 

Irwin Goldstein: Let me tell you another quick story. This was an 18-year-old who presented with erectile dysfunction. At age 14, he was diagnosed with lymphoma. He had one year of multiple different chemotherapy agents. The irony of all this is one of the chemotherapy agents causes scarring of the muscle of the heart so that he always had to see a cardiologist through the last four or five years to make sure the agents that cured his lymphoma, because he's now cured of it, didn't cause damage to the heart muscle. [00:15:16] 

Of course, the muscle of the heart and the muscle of the penis are really parallel and analogous tissues. Of course, no one thought that the chemotherapy could injure the penis muscles, but of course they did. All of his erectile dysfunction [inaudible 00:15:32] going to chemotherapy, he was said to, "Oh, this is psychological. You're worried about the cancer, blah, blah, blah."

Then he finally ended up on our doorstep. We did the appropriate grayscale ultrasound studies during full erection. You can see the scarring of the penis. The erectile tissue homogeneity was not there. All I'm saying to you is it's not really a mystery. It's a hydraulic failure, and you just have to unravel the basis for the hydraulic failure, and then we can get on to treatment. 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible how your background with first engineering and then all of the other medical school all come together. Let's talk about another prevalent issue then in males. Can you just teach us more about premature ejaculation? [00:16:16] 

Irwin Goldstein: Well, that's one of our coolest things that we're doing right now is we're actually curing premature ejaculation. I can't tell you how exciting that is. There's another serendipitous story. We love serendipity. 

We have this machine called penile shockwave, and we didn't really discuss it during erectile dysfunction, but we purchased the machine for men with erectile dysfunction. This is a device that generates sound waves that travel faster than the speed of sound. Since ours is electrohydraulic, it comes out over 3,000 miles an hour out of the probe into whatever tissue you're aiming it at. 

So for men with erectile dysfunction, we generate this energy with the idea of activating stem cells, endogenous stem cells within the penis, so that they can replicate and then make more downstream cells, which is a healthy muscle, to make the penis more functional. So that's the idea. 

In certain patients, as we apply the shockwave energy to the various parts of the penis, the front part, the side parts, what we call the dorsal and ventral parts, there's an area called the frenulum, which is the sensitive part of a man's penis. [00:17:23] It's on the front part of the penis called the ventral surface. 

In usual, we can use relatively high energies to deliver the appropriate shockwave energy into the penis. In some men, when you apply the shockwave energy to their front part of the penis, they scream with pain. And it's like, wow, what am I doing? And we have to lower the energy dramatically. And then it dawned on me, every one of those people who couldn't tolerate the energy at the front part of the penis had what? Laura, what's the answer? 

Laura Dugger: Premature ejaculation. 

Irwin Goldstein: And I said, Oh my... this is another form of a penile dysesthesia. Let me explain a dysesthesia. So, aesthesia is feeling. Anesthesia is the profession that takes away feeling so you can operate. Dysesthesia is dysfunctional feeling. We finally had a tool, which we have never had before, and it ended up being the shockwave, that actually was able to identify a man who had a penile dysesthesia, a region of his penis that was so severely hypersensitive that any touch resulted in him having an ejaculation. [00:18:30] 

So, we've now been able to map out the region of the dysesthesia. We can take a Q-tip and point out that on the side of the penis, a Q-tip causes like, say, a sensation of a 1 out of 10. But when you touch the frenulum and the region around the frenulum, that's like a 12 out of 10. And if you go like 3 millimeters off the frenulum, you're back to the 1 out of 10. This is really oval region of amazing supersensitivity. 

So, we've now developed an in-house surgical excision of the hypersensitive tissue with now resolution of people's ability to control ejaculation. It is really fascinating, I have to say. We have to do more of them. We haven't really published this stuff yet, but we've done a whole number of them, and we've really changed people's lives. So, it's very cool. 

But that's probably a subgroup of PE. I'm sure not everybody has that. But it's been really fun to unravel at least this subgroup of men.

Laura Dugger: I can't imagine how exciting that would be once you make a discovery like that and you can help so many people. [00:19:33] 

Irwin Goldstein: Well, you know, it's the link between... we do men and women. So, most doctors or urologists do men, and most gynecologists only do women. So, it's not that many who do both. But if you have the ability to do both... we treat genital dysesthesia all the time in women. 

One of the genital dysesthesias that we treat are women who have unwanted, unremitting arousals all the time, persistent genital arousal. We see women with persistent unwanted itch, and they can't wear leggings, they can't wear anything tight on their body because it just itches everywhere. And that's another neurologic thing. 

So, the fact that we're familiar with genital dysesthesia through the woman's world allowed us to now identify a new genital dysesthesia in men. But nobody's really thought of it that way because, of course, most healthcare providers in this field sort of separate into the two genders, but don't do both. 

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Laura Dugger: Are there any other common issues that you see people struggling with on a daily basis that you could easily treat if they would be willing to make an appointment with you? 

Irwin Goldstein: I saw a whole bunch of people today, but since they're fresh in my mind, there was a, what, 27-year-old woman. She's actually a physician assistant who is on birth control pills for contraception. It's so sad. There's like 30-plus million women on this. 

The nature of birth control pills is that they raise a protein that's made by the liver called sex hormone-binding globulin. But it's actually a protein or globulin that binds the sex hormones and thereby renders them unavailable to the tissues. They're stuck inside this globulin. [00:22:47] 

One of the consequences of birth control pills is that everyone, all 30 million women, have a low testosterone because one of the things that the sex hormone binding globulin is very efficient at binding is the sex hormone called testosterone. So 30 million women are being, I'll use the word iatrogenic, meaning that doctors are doing this, causing a low hormonal state in women while they're getting what they believe to be is a safe and efficient contraceptive method. 

Well, the low testosterone has consequences in people. They have low interest. They get depressed. They get sad. They have muscle strength weakness. They have soft bones. But in particular, the opening to the vagina is very testosterone dependent. That area is called the vestibule. It's a region very poorly examined by most providers. You have to stretch it laterally because it's facing in the anterior-posterior position and the front-to-back position. 

If you examine women with pain, and there are, God knows, millions and millions of women with pain who have entrance pain during sexuality, it's being caused by their contraception. How crazy sad that is. [00:23:58] 

So you ask something simple to do. If you're a woman with sadness, low libido, and entrance pain, and you happen to be on the birth control pill, let me tell you a very simple strategy would be to change contraceptive systems to an actually more efficient system called the LARC, long-acting reversible contraception. An example would be an IUD or an example would be the Nexplanon or Implanon, the glass rods that go on the arm. Those do not affect SHPG. They do not affect testosterone. They do not cause the sadness. They do not cause the pain. And then we would provide a little bit of testosterone cream to get testosterone back into the tissues and resolve the pain. 

So that's easy-peasy. It's just that it's missed by so many people. So many women are on the pill, they just assume, since all their women friends have pain, they say, Oh, it's just natural to have pain when you have intercourse. I don't know anyone who doesn't have that. That's sort of sad. 

Laura Dugger: That's very sad because pain would always be a signal that your body is trying to let you know about something. [00:25:01] 

Irwin Goldstein: Yeah. But some people say, well, it's sex, and it's stretching my vagina, and it's supposed to be associated with pain because all my girlfriends have pain. It's not true, though.

Laura Dugger: I love that you shed light on this topic. But let's transition to a topic that many other listeners are interested in, which is hormones. Can you just give us a hormones 101? 

Irwin Goldstein: We can talk first men, then women. Critical hormones in men, of course, are testosterone. Testosterone is a product made by the gonad called the testicle. It's under regulatory function by messages from what's called the hypothalamus and pituitary. They release what are called gonadotropins, which are proteins that stimulate the testicle. 

So there's two kinds of low testosterone, one where the testicle itself has failed. That's called primary testicular dysfunction — sort of like a menopause situation. Just today we had a guy who, at age 15, 16, 17, 18, did intense weightlifting. [00:26:04] I don't know if you know about weightlifting, but the trainers sort of sell you anabolic steroids. His testicles shriveled because they were no longer needed to make testosterone. He was taking so much outside source testosterone so he could be the weightlifter. 

But now that he's finished weightlifting, he has essentially no testosterone in his body. He's a young guy, and his testicles are really the sizes of raisins. Testicles are normally egg-sized. So that's primary hypogonadism. We call that hypergonadotropic hypogonadism because the gonadotropins are elevated trying to stimulate the testicle. So that's one type. 

The more common type is where the hypothalamus and the pituitary won't release the gonadotropins to stimulate the testicles. So that's called hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, and that's called secondary hypogonadism. So we have good treatments for that. We have drugs that actually increase the amount of gonadotropins to help stimulate the testicles. [00:27:02] 

So testosterone is widely FDA-approved as a treatment for men as opposed to women. We have all kinds of strategies, both endogenous and exogenous, to treat men with low testosterone. 

Another important hormone is thyroid. It's sort of more common to have women with low thyroid, but men do have low thyroid. We pick that up more often than we should. There's another one. I have a healthcare provider who's a colleague of mine who had really low interest in sex, and we got a bunch of hormones in his prolactin, which is actually a hormone released by the pituitary gland to make breasts make milk, prolactin. 

His prolactin was about 20 times higher than it should be, so we got an MRI of his pituitary gland and a little tiny tumor called a prolactinoma there, and we treated his prolactinoma with medication. His libido came back, and he was very happy. He's a good friend of mine. Sort of weird that it was a friend that had that tumor. [00:28:01] 

But hormones in men on a 101 level mean that every person who walks into your office with a sexual dysfunction should have at least 9 or 10 hormones measured, including the thyroid and the prolactin, and, of course, testosterone. 

Now for women, the big issue is, of course, menopause. Menopause happens at age 51 on average. There's a lot of controversy that hormones are going to kill you and cause cancer and cause heart attacks and strokes. Most of that is just false, incorrect information. 

A correct situation for a woman would be careful monitoring of hormones with blood levels that they're in an appropriate level and what we call vulvoscopy monitoring, so we can actually monitor the tissues. During vulvoscopy, a woman, I call it evening the score, a woman can actually, who normally can't see inside the vagina to see the tissues, they actually watch their genitals on a monitor while we're actually doing the examination. So they get to see all the inside tissue and all the damage that low hormones do. 

And what's cool is that as we give back the hormones in the monitored way, so we can follow them and keep them at an ideal value. [00:29:09] We can watch the tissues become not atrophic, not painful, not erythematous, not with pallor, not with any of the usual findings that you see in women with menopause. So hormones are a fabulous and very safe way to maintain sexual function in human beings who have sexual dysfunction. 

For women, we do three sex steroid hormones. We do testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. Of course, we also follow thyroid and prolactin, but for men, it's primarily testosterone. For women, it's three, testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. 

Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. So, for women, it's menopause that will usually be the onset of the hormones really affecting their sexuality. Are there any other likely contributors or seasons of life for men or women that would throw things out of whack? 

Irwin Goldstein: So, I've discussed with you the issue of women and birth control pills, because that certainly throws their hormones out of whack. [00:30:10] Just to refresh the memory, the sex hormone binding globulin, it gets too high, and it binds all the testosterone, so their actual, what's called free testosterone, is quite low. So that's medication that throws hormones out of whack. 

But men have their own versions of bad hormones. A lot of men find that their hair is thinning. They don't like that, and they want to have a full head of hair. So there's a drug called Propecia, or finasteride, that is a strategy to increase hair. Well, it's a strategy that stops the dihydrotestosterone, which is the hormone that is not happy to hair. High dihydrotestosterone injures the roots. 

So the strategy by taking finasteride, or Propecia, is to lower dihydrotestosterone. But just to remind you and your listeners, that dihydrotestosterone is actually a critical hormone for the health of the penis tissue. So, you can't get it both ways. [00:31:07] 

So if you want to intervene, you put your hair at benefit and your penis at risk. And we see countless men who are taking hair loss drugs who have sexual problems as a result of their ingestion of that treatment. 

Laura Dugger: This is so many different avenues that we wouldn't link together, and you found these correlations. 

Sorry to interrupt, but we just wanted to remind you to give us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. This helps more people discover The Savvy Sauce and ultimately hear the good news of Jesus. Thanks for partnering with us. We truly have the kindest and most helpful listeners. 

I'm just in awe of all of this. Is there anything else that comes to mind that we wouldn't be aware of? Like nursing moms, we've always heard that hormones change at that point or during pregnancy, but those are more expected. 

Irwin Goldstein: Yes. So during breastfeeding, so postpartum... We had another woman who walked in today who had an episiotomy. She had a sort of traumatic birth, and the episiotomy incision would not heal. [00:32:12] She's three and a half months out and the wound still has not healed. One of the doctors tried to cauterize it with silver nitrate and it still didn't work. It was very painful to the woman. The doctor wanted to operate on her, so she came to me for a second opinion. We're gonna figure out non-surgical strategies to help her non-healing episiotomy. 

But my point is, during breastfeeding where she is in, the hormones are extremely low. Estradiol is very low, testosterone is very low. The tissues aren't very healthy. It's almost the equivalent of menopause, but it's not really menopause. But the ovary is not roaring out with lots of hormones as it otherwise should. 

The dilemma, of course, at least that she has to face is I'd love to give her some hormones, but she doesn't want to put the child at risk by taking hormones. So we have to figure out a strategy to get the tissue happy but not hurt the baby. 

Laura Dugger: Yes, very complex. One more topic that I want to briefly discuss, because your practice is ahead of its time, will you tell us a little bit more about your new regenerative therapy and your state-of-the-art cutting-edge therapy? [00:33:22] 

Irwin Goldstein: Thank you for asking. 10 years ago in Europe, actually from Israel, the first-ever shockwave device was applied to men with erectile dysfunction with the idea that the energy would give mitochondria... I don't know if you know what mitochondria are. They're the parts of a cell inside the cytoplasm that provide energy. So we can actually increase the ATP, which is the energy source of a mitochondria in the stem cells that exist in the penis. They can replicate with ease and make more opportunity to make more downstream cells, which are the penis, healthy, smooth muscle cells. 

So that was the idea. It was proposed 10 years ago. And it's widely, widely used in Europe, all over Europe, all over South America. The FDA has more or less blocked the introduction of shockwave devices for the same indication in the United States until the usual trials are done, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multi-institutional trials, like Viagra had to go through. [00:34:22] 

Those are $500 million trials. So pharma like Pfizer can do that, but device companies don't have that sort of background. So it's been a situation where you could get this treatment in Europe, but you can't get it in the U.S., it was very frustrating. 

We did a clinical trial with shockwave, like five or six years ago, trying to get the FDA to allow us to eventually get the shockwave device in. The company realized it would be too expensive, so they dropped out. I was at a meeting, In This Wish meeting, International Society of Study of Women's Sexual Health, at a women's sexual meeting, and displaying was one of these shockwave companies. They finally got clearance from the FDA to get the device into the U.S. for three things: amelioration of pain, increasing blood flow, and connective tissue activation. 

So with that clearance, and the designation by the FDA that this device was non-significant risk, NSR, to humans, we were able to get the device into our office. [00:35:24] Now, we're doing the sham-controlled, prospective placebo-controlled trial for men with ED with the shockwave, but we're now using the shockwave for many, many other uses. 

We talked about premature ejaculation, but men who have these curved penises, Peyronie's disease. We're using shockwave therapy for that. We're doing women who have pain. We're doing vestibular shockwave therapy for their vestibules. This woman who had an unhealing wound from the postpartum, we're doing shockwave therapy on her wound. It's amazing for diabetic ulcers and other wounds to increase blood flow to the region, so we're helping her heal without surgery that wound I talked about. So that's been an amazing opportunity for us to help people. 

The last part of shockwave therapy that I can share with you that's really cool is the 10 years of shockwave therapy for rectal dysfunction has always been on men in the flaccid state. So the men just show up in the office and they come in and they shockwave the penis as it is as they enter, which is their flaccid state. [00:36:25] 

When I started realizing, that was ridiculous. There's a thing called acoustic impedance, which means that tissue that's very thin, like a flaccid penis being pushed on by a probe. The diameter is only like a centimeter or less. Whereas a full erection, you can get diameters of more than six centimeters. So the acoustic impedance would be very high in somebody who has a wider tissue presented to the shockwave. 

So we have now done for the last three or four months only shockwave therapy during men with penile erection, which has never been done before, but it makes the most sense. And it's very obvious that that's gonna be how all people do that in the future. 

Laura Dugger: Is there anything else that we haven't covered yet that you would like to mention? 

Irwin Goldstein: Anyone who has a sexual problem, we will unravel it as best as we can and work with them. That's just who we are. 

Laura Dugger: If listeners are intrigued after this conversation and they want to explore more options for treatment, where would you first direct them? [00:37:26] 

Irwin Goldstein: We have a website, San Diego Sexual Medicine. It's an inventive and exciting website with lots of information about men and women and their sexual issues. 

Laura Dugger: Our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Dr. Goldstein, what is your savvy sauce? 

Irwin Goldstein: I'm a big proponent... my father taught me this, and I'm sure his father taught him this. So this has gone through the generations. I tried to teach my own kids and I think we were successful. We're big proponents of work hard, play hard. When I go to the office, I'm all working hard. But when I leave, I love playing hard. 

One of the savvy sauce things that I love doing with my wife is date night. So playing hard for us is date night. I encourage people to set a time in your life to just be together, do exciting and fun things and be intimate with each other and find that we can not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. [00:38:31] 

Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. Love hearing that. Dr. Goldstein, thank you for your skilled work that impacts so many people in one of the most private areas of their life. Your work clearly matters and I'm so very grateful that you educated us today. Thank you for being my guest. 

Irwin Goldstein: Laura, thank you so much for doing this. You're awesome. Your San Diego days were awesome. Good luck in your new place and thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it. 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:39:34] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:40:36] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:41:38] 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

93 Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn

*Disclaimer: This episode contains potions of adult material and is intended for mature listeners only*

 

93. Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Colossians 3:13 (AMP) “bearing graciously with one another, and willingly forgiving each other if one has a cause for complaint against another; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so should you forgive.” 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author and popular speaker.  Today, she applies her analytical skills to investigating eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace.  Her groundbreaking research-based books have sold more than 2 million copies in 23 languages and are widely read in homes, counseling centers and corporations worldwide.

 

Shaunti’s findings are regularly featured in media as diverse as The Today Show and Focus on the Family, The New York Times and Cosmo.  She (often with her husband, Jeff) speaks at 50 events a year around the world. Shaunti and her husband Jeff live in Atlanta with their teenage daughter and son, and two cats who think they are dogs.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Shaunti’s Website 

Books by Shaunti Feldhahn:

For Men Only

For Women Only

For Couples Only

For Parents Only

Thriving in Love and Money

Thriving in Love and Money Workbook

The Kindness Challenge

The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Couples

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com. 

 

Have you ever had an interaction with the opposite sex that left you puzzled? I hope you conclude this chat with more clarity, because today's guest is an expert in the field of gender differences. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn is the best-selling author of books such as For Men Only and For Women Only. She is going to unpack the most common insecurities each gender experiences and share ways we can understand each other better. [00:01:24] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Shaunti. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, it's great to be with you. 

 

Laura Dugger: I know that you have an analytical background, and I would love to hear how you unexpectedly switched careers to focus more on relationships. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: This was a right-hand turn that I was not expecting. I actually had gotten my graduate degree in a very sort of analytical field and then went to work on Wall Street. I mean, I was in the finance arena, and I was analyzing large Japanese banks, but really developing some analytical experience. 

 

Then when Jeff and I, my husband and I, moved to Atlanta, this whole thing started because I had this opportunity to write a couple of novels. [00:02:11] One of the main characters in my novel was a man, and I realized I didn't know how to put thoughts in his head. Like, I had no idea as... you know, I'm a woman. What do I know about what a guy would be thinking? But I had to say what my main character was thinking. 

 

This whole thing started because I would interview men, and I would say, Okay, if we'd be out to dinner with another couple or something, I'd go to the other husband and say, "Can I ask you a question? Here's the scene in this novel that I'm writing. What would you be thinking if this was you in this situation?" And as these guys started telling me what they'd be thinking, I was so shocked by some of the things I was hearing. And it sort of sparked me to do more of these interviews and more of these conversations. 

 

I realized at some point that the stuff I was hearing was really, really foundational stuff. These weren't things the guys said, they kind of thought or they felt like, you know, it happened every couple of months. [00:03:13] The stuff that they were describing were things that they as a man thought or felt like every day, multiple times a day. 

 

I had been married maybe eight years at that point. Of course, I'm like, "Why haven't I heard this before?" I think that's when the analyst hat went on. And really, it was amazing. Just very providential was able to turn that into a big survey of men to go, "Okay, what percentage of guys does this apply to?" 

 

And that really started this whole thing, because when that became For Women Only, the book, For Women Only, and it became a big bestseller, the revenue from that ended up funding the next research study and then the next and then the next. I sort of stumbled into really innovating this new type of social research. 

 

Laura Dugger: That is incredible. And just starting with a few simple questions and your curiosity, it sounds like their answers must have been very different from the ones you would have naturally thought. Is that true? [00:04:18] 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Like I said, the thing that really shocked me was that I was shocked and that the men actually quite often... like they didn't realize they were saying anything shocking. They thought that we knew this. I would come home and I would tell Jeff, "Guess what this guy told me?" And he would nod, you know. And he told me later that half the time when I did that, he was thinking to himself, "You mean you didn't know that? What about that did you not get before?" It really started showing me there's this huge disconnect in some of these things that are so foundational for both men and women. 

 

Laura Dugger: So then when you think back, what was your most shocking discovery about the gender differences? 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Probably the biggest thing that was the starting point of the shocking discoveries — it's really what got me started — was hearing these really awesome men, like men I went to church with, men I really trusted, like we were very good friends with them and their wives, and I knew how much they tried to, for example, honor women. [00:05:30] And yet when I was asking, Okay, so here's a scene, and I was describing this one scene in the book where there's this male character and he's in the office with a female character who is wearing like, I don't know, like a tight skirt or something, like a kind of a short tight skirt, and I was asking, "Okay, what would the character be thinking?"

 

And these amazing, trustworthy, honorable men were describing these thoughts like, "Oh, well, she just wants me to picture her sexually. She's just trying to use her body to sell the deal or whatever. And I'm like, what? She's just trying to look fashionable and she's just trying to look attractive." And they're like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. She's not trying to look attractive. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's trying to trigger sexual thoughts in the men around her." And I'm like, "Okay, whoa, what? And I was really shocked, honestly. 

 

Laura Dugger: Because women, I'm sure if you surveyed them, that is not at all their intention or what they're thinking. [00:06:30] 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: No, it's not. As a matter of fact, eventually I did survey the women. Because this is what we do right now, we do these massive nationally representative studies. In one of those studies where I did actually do a study on men in the workplace and, you know, we had a control group of women. And so we asked the women, If you dress like that at work or anywhere, I suppose, you know, what are you trying to do? And I can't remember the number. It was something like, I don't know, 18 percent or some number like that of women who said, Oh, absolutely. I'm trying to get him to look at my body. I'm trying to get him to view me sexually. I want him to view me that way. There were some. It was actually a higher number than I thought it would be, something like 18% or 20%. But the vast majority, you know, 80 percent of women are like, What? No, I'm just trying to feel attractive. 

 

Eventually, we realized and I don't know how much you want to get into this, Laura, but we actually realized once we started digging into what's kind of underneath this disconnect between men and women, that there's actually a part of the brain in the male brain that is actually stimulated in a way that literally does not exist in the female brain. [00:07:50] And it's why we have no equivalent. 

 

There is literally a part of the male brain that when they see an image, it stimulates the center near the back of the brain to view stuff like that very sexually. And when women see an attractive man, that part of the brain isn't stimulated at all, and there's no sexual temptation. 

 

So we women have no idea that it exists in men and men have no idea that women don't know what's happening. The hard part of this is that it's thrown at men every day. I have a 16-year-old son and he's trying really very, very hard to try to honor women. He's trying to take his thoughts captive. You know, he's trying to do a good job at that. 

 

The ironic part is that this is actually the hardest for men who want to honor women. Because if they're trying to honor and respect women, they try to look away. They try to take their thoughts captive. They try not to think those things and think about other things like baseball scores. You know, like what else can I think about? Which is great. [00:08:53] 

 

But those are the people who care about honoring women. The ones who don't care about that, who don't want to respect women, they'll just let their thoughts go wherever. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's fascinating. I remember being at a conference one time when you helped the women understand this concept. You wrote up on the board, don't read this. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: You correlated it and said this would be the same thing as an attractive woman walking by, that honorable man may not want to look at her, but he still knows she's there. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. It's the brain. The male brain can't not notice this. He can choose what to do with it. And that's the thing that is very easily misunderstood. So that's one of the things I want to make sure that I say very clearly. There is a wiring in the male brain that is stimulated, biologically. He has no choice in the matter. It's like you rub your hand up somebody's arm, those nerve endings are stimulated. [00:09:55] You can't not have that. But he can choose what to do with it. 

 

And that's the issue is where so many men who are trying to be honorable and trying to respect women, that's the choice that they have to make over and over and over and over all day, which is to look away, to bounce their eyes, to take those thoughts captive, to think about my wife instead of that image. And it's obviously challenging. They have to do it, but it's challenging. 

 

I think that's the hard part is a lot of women, our brains aren't wired that way to be stimulated in a similar situation. So we don't know that it happens, and so we think to ourselves, at least what I used to think, it's none of his business what I'm wearing. He shouldn't be looking. I don't realize that guys are like, what does that even mean? Because their brains are being stimulated even when they really, really do not want them to be. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think just like your books often do, it provides compassion for the other gender. [00:10:55] And so then even going back to those first two bestselling books, For Men Only, For Women Only, of all those research findings, will you just give maybe two examples of something that both men and women can learn and grab onto today so they can start enjoying their relationship more? 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, sure. Absolutely. Well, probably the most important one... and this is what we've seen over the years. By the way, we... I don't know if you knew this. Because we had done so much research ongoing. We ended up putting out new editions of the books just a couple of years ago because there was so much new stuff that we were learning along the way. 

 

After all of that time, the most important thing statistically is actually to recognize that men and women have two very different sets of primary insecurities running under the surface. I mean, to some degree, you know, we all have insecurities about everything. [00:11:56] Like, you know, we all have self-doubts. We know what that feels like. 

 

But these are ones that are basically kind of a raw nerve for men and a raw nerve for women, and they're different. And if that's true, what it means by definition is that something different is going to hurt your spouse's feelings than would hurt yours. You're hitting a nerve that's different. 

 

And so what we tell the women is that our men look so strong and confident in themselves, and we think that's how they feel about themselves and we don't realize it's just a mask and that underneath the surface, there's so much self-doubt. And it's essentially a feeling like, am I any good at what I do? Do I have what it takes at all? Like, I really, really want to be a great husband, for example, or I really want to be a great dad or I want to be a great salesman. [00:12:52] Like, they want to tackle a challenge, right? But the guys described it as really doubting that they know what they're doing and really feeling like their wife or someone is going to discover that he's just a terrible husband and he's been masquerading this whole time. 

 

So there's a lot of vulnerability under the surface. And that's one of the reasons why there's this massive emotional need for knowing that the most important person in his life, the person who knows him the best, really appreciates him, really kind of believes in him. That there's this huge need to hear that and to feel that because it speaks to that question under the surface. 

 

On the women's side, what the men don't realize is that to them, we look like these beautiful women that they really love, they adore, and they don't realize that we have this huge question under the surface for us that's like, Am I lovable? And they don't know that that question doesn't go away when we get married. [00:13:58] They kind of think, "Well, of course, she knows I love her. We're living in the same house. Of course, she does." 

 

And they don't realize, no, in marriage it just morphs to, "Does he really love me? Is he glad he married me?" It could be an underground question under the surface. But man, when that's triggered, you know, you have an argument and he's displeased with you and he heads off to work and he's angry, I mean, guys don't realize that's really roiling inside. And there's this huge need to be reassured. And also really a need just every day to know that this man who I'm amazed that he wants to marry me, he wants to live his life with me, that he's still excited about that. Like, to know that every day that he loves me, that's the need that women tend to have. 

 

These are about 80%, 20% on both sides. Depending on the survey, it was anywhere between 75% and 85% of men and women had these. It's not 100%. But it's pretty common. [00:14:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: So for the man, he doesn't want to feel inadequate. Something practical that we can do, you're saying, is encourage or look for every opportunity to sincerely speak life into him. Is that right? Or even just saying thank you. I know you've pointed that out before. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. The thing that we don't realize, and it really is both sides, but let's just tackle the women, the wives who are listening and wanting to know how to sort of speak life into their husband. We don't realize how often we're doing the opposite of that without ever intending to. These little things like, why did you put the kids in those clothes? They need a jacket. It's cold outside. And we're just making a comment or we're asking for information or we're annoyed. We don't realize that because the guy has this underground question, am I any good as a dad, am I any good at what I do, and what he tried to do was dress the kids well, he hears that as you are an utter failure as a father. [00:16:09] 

 

Now, I think that's crazy but that's the way a guy hears it. And hearing it once, it's painful. Hearing it twice, it's more painful. If he hears stuff like that throughout the day and it hits the nerve over and over and over, it's so painful because he starts feeling like, "I can't. I'm no good."

 

For a guy, if you ever hear him say, "Nothing I do is ever good enough for you," oh, boy, watch out. That's the statement of a guy who's just been shredded, even though you have no intention of shredding him that way. No intention. It's just you're wired differently. You don't realize it for him it's all about, I tried to do this, whatever "this" is, tried to clean the kitchen, dress the kids, whatever it is, and I failed. For a man, that's really, really hard. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to have those examples because then to be proactive, when you see something and you can sincerely call it out or thank them, I would think it would have the opposite effect. [00:17:18] 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Well, actually, and you referred to it, we actually did one of our research studies because I'm kind of a research nerd when it comes to trying to figure this out. I really did want to know what you could tell a man that would build him up emotionally in the same way that "I love you" builds us up as women. Because, you know, when you hear your man say, "I love you" because it speaks to our insecurity, am I lovable, it really hits you. 

 

I learned really quickly that it doesn't work to tell your husband, "Oh, honey, I appreciate you so much or I respect you so much. Just actually saying those words doesn't really hit him. But when you say "thank you" to a guy, that's his kind of equivalent of "I love you" because it says I noticed this thing you did. "Thank you for dressing the kids. Thank you for cleaning the kitchen. You were so tired and I saw that you took the kids and played with them anyway. You're such a good dad." [00:18:15] I mean, even little things like thanks for putting gas in my car, it says, I noticed this thing you did and it was good, and I appreciate it. That's like life to a guy. 

 

Laura Dugger: Because that's saying he's doing good with those external motivators. And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. 

 

Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, Welcome to Sam Leman's. [00:19:16] 

 

Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business. 

 

Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's also flip it and speak to the husbands listening now. For the wife, you're reminding them that this is an everyday pursuit. How would you communicate to them? 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: What we tell the guys is the same way that sometimes maybe your wife is hitting your nerve, making you feel that sense of failure or self-doubt, your wife has the "am I lovable, would he choose me all over again?" [00:20:24] So you as a guy also need to know how to avoid hitting it, kind of what to do maybe if you do accidentally hit the nerve, but also how to build her up. 

 

So avoiding the negative side, literally, it's just recognizing what is it that's going to kind of raise that question in her? Like is he glad he married me? Does he really love me? Guys think it's ridiculous that we would even ask that. But we tell them there's no switch in a woman's brain that gets flipped to the "oh, now I feel permanently loved" position. She has that question every day. 

 

And you don't realize that conflict or you withdrawing... you're upset with each other, you've got to get to work, you drive away, and the thought of the argument just goes out of your head. Like you turn it off because you have to focus on work. And you don't realize she's not turning that off. It's not because she's holding a grudge. It's not because she's refusing to let it go. It's literally that question has now risen up. [00:21:28] And she's kind of going, "Are we okay? It's a painful question. 

 

So we tell the guys, reassuring her, recognizing that maybe her raw nerve has been hit, and reassuring her is huge. Like before you go away to work, literally saying something like, "Look, I'm angry, I need to get to work but listen, we're okay. We'll talk about this tonight. I love you" and leaving. That's huge for a woman because it tells her that all this was was just an argument. This isn't that "I'm not glad I married you". 

 

That's the sort of avoiding the negative side. The positive thing we tell the guys is, picture it like she having the question: Is he glad he married me every day? That's in there every day, even if it's subconscious. So she's kind of subconsciously looking for the answer to that every day. [00:22:28] 

 

You can literally answer that for her by reaching across and taking her hand when you're walking across a parking lot. That says, I'm so glad I married you. You put your arm around her in church or sitting at a restaurant with friends. And that says, you're mine, right? I'm so glad I married you. That to her is what speaks life. 

 

Again, this isn't 100%. You know, this is about 80%. This isn't going to necessarily be exactly what that 20% needs. But even for the 20%, we found that this was a good thing. It just wasn't maybe oxygen the way it is for the rest of us. 

 

Laura Dugger: Either way, if they do fall into this 80% or not, it's at least going to bring up some good conversation. And you can start to ask each other, is this what you identify with or is there something else? 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, exactly. Honestly, one of the things that we found that's the most helpful about this... I do pastoral interviews a lot. You know, Jeff and I will do marriage conferences or I'll do women's events. [00:23:28] But one of the formats that's become really popular, honestly, for us, is a pastor will bring us in or me and interview me on stage as the sermon time for church because then everybody hears about it all at once and it kind of can develop a common language. 

 

And one of the things that we've noticed is literally the couples will walk out of church and the wife and the husband will turn to each other and go, "Really? Really? Is this true?" Again, if they're in the 80%, they'll kind of go, "Yeah." "What?" You know, you've got all these baffled husbands who are like, "But of course I adore you." And the women are like, "Of course, I appreciate you." It's such a good conversation starter just to go back to the very beginning and really understand these insecurities under the surface. 

 

Laura Dugger: I highly recommend these books because thinking back, my husband and I went through them together when we were engaged and we had so many of those moments that you're describing of, "Wait, this isn't you, right?" And light bulb moments. [00:24:42] 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: You should have seen me when I was researching the thing. I mean, half the time, I'm like, "This isn't you, right?"

 

Laura Dugger:  And now that you've researched and then taught on this topic for years, what habits have you personally implemented to improve your marriage, specifically as it relates to you understanding Jeff better?

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Pretty much everything, honestly. We had a fine marriage. We were more happy than not. We generally had a decent marriage, but there were plenty of times that we didn't. I mean, Jeff says this isn't true, but I know it's true that often it was really because of how clueless I was of how my words, it was usually my words, were affecting my husband. 

 

I'm a pretty strong, opinionated personality, if you hadn't noticed and I just didn't realize I was shredding my husband half the time. I mean, little things. Well, they seemed little to me. I didn't realize how big they were to all men. [00:25:47] 

 

I can still remember when this started to come up, we were at our friend's home group for church. We were at their house, and Jeff and I were like, "Okay, it's kind of time to go." And Jeff looked at his watch and said, "You know what? We really do need to get home because the kitchen sink is busted. I've been trying to fix the faucet, and I really want to get back there and see if I can fix it." Everybody's kind of standing up and putting on their coats, and I kind of joked, "Honey, you've never been able to fix anything in your life. Just call a plumber." I didn't realize the chill in the air from the six men in the room was related to me having basically just said to everybody in the room, I think my husband is a worthless idiot. 

 

Now, I would never have felt that that was what I was saying. I adore my husband. I hugely appreciate him. He's an amazing guy. I just had no idea that what I had just said in front of a whole room full of people was exactly the opposite. [00:26:48] That was sort of the beginning of the education of me as I started doing these surveys with men. Oh, it was so convicting. And I had years of habits that I had to unlearn. But thankfully... I always say God is merciful. Thankfully, I started unlearning them. 

 

This is the case for this whole topic. Once we realize what's in the heart of our spouse, once we understand what's under the surface, yeah, we may still have habits that need to be unlearned, but you want to unlearn them. You're motivated because you realize, Oh my word, I've been hurting the most important person in my life. And I don't want to do that. 

 

Laura Dugger: And if these can just be a little piece of knowledge, just reading, you know, maybe a chapter a month out loud or asking each other questions, that's so encouraging that that can improve your relationship. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, it's the simplest stuff too. [00:27:49] Honestly, this has become so convicting and so sobering. Because we get these emails all the time or, you know, somebody posts on social media and we get these comments that say things like, "I read your book and it saved our marriage" or "my husband and I were getting ready to go to the divorce court and we read the book and we talked about it and we tore up the divorce papers." Which is awesome. Wow, thank you, God, for using it this way. However, for me, why that's sobering is if a 180-page little tiny book can save a marriage, there's a whole lot of tragically unnecessary divorces going on. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so sobering. If you're enjoying these episodes and want to keep the conversation going or if you want to see and learn more about our guests or if you just want to check out if we're offering any current giveaways, make sure you stop by our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram at The Savvy Sauce. [00:28:53] 

 

Again, now that we've addressed the female side, how would your husband answer that same question? Does he have any habitual practices in place to understand and love you better? 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah, he definitely does. I think honestly, one of the big things for me, which is the case actually for statistically most women, is that he didn't realize that if he was grumpy and sullen... you know, you have that kind of that black cloud that sometimes follows your husband around. He thought it only affected him. He didn't realize that for me, and I can't remember what the number is, it's like 87% of women, something like that, it really causes some insecurity. It causes that feeling of, are we okay? 

 

You know, because he's withdrawn. He's moody. He's not talking. It's like, are we okay? Is something wrong? What did I do? You know, it's like you get all these thoughts, even if it could just be that the Michigan Wolverines are getting beat badly. [00:29:52] But if we have a little thing where we're at odds or whatever, and he kind of used to be, he would be withdrawn for a couple of days. And now it's amazing. 

 

I actually watch... he starts down that slope and I can see that he's trying to pull himself out of it and snap himself out of having that bad mood, because he knows how insecure it makes me feel. And that has been really powerful on his side. 

 

Laura Dugger: So even you seeing him make the effort is what translates to be meaningful to you. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, very much so. And that's the thing. Unless you know this stuff, you won't notice the other person making the effort. You won't realize that it's any different in what they're trying to do. Once you know some of these little simple things, you go, oh, that's what they're trying to do. 

 

One of the things that we recommend with the two books, with For Women Only and For Men Only... Some church that was doing premarital counseling with them actually came up with this idea and we asked if we could borrow it, because it's the perfect idea. [00:31:01] 

 

They literally advise people to switch books first. And instead of reading the book about your spouse, actually read the book about yourself and kind of highlight and circle the stuff that's so you, that you think, "I could have said this. This is so me." Also make notes on the areas where maybe you're in the 20% on this or that, right? 

 

But then what happens after you've done that, you really have a sense, my spouse didn't know this? Like, these are the things they didn't know? And then you trade it back and you're reading a personalized copy. But you've also got a real insight into, Oh, when they were in a bad mood, my husband didn't realize that was impacting me this way. And so it puts a different spin on it. It's not like he's trying to torture me. He just doesn't know. [00:31:56] So it's really helpful to actually understand what your spouse doesn't realize, just as much as it is to actually learn about them. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think that's so powerful. It's really wise for so many different reasons, even just a way that the book can articulate what you're experiencing that you may not be aware of so you could grow in self-awareness. And then when it's time to switch and read the other book, I think that it helps you assume the best of one another. And then when you're assuming that, you notice those things, and it's just a great cycle. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: It does tend to feed itself. I mean, we're not perfect. None of us is ever going to do it perfectly. But it really is helpful because you absolutely start to understand and have compassion for what's going on in your spouse's heart, and recognizing when they're not getting what's in yours. All of that just really helps. It's really simple, but it is really transformational. 

 

Laura Dugger: Now I want to switch gears a little bit because I want to ask that same question for you as a parent. [00:33:01] How has all of this research applied and changed the way you parent? 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: It's been radically, radically transformational in my relationship with my kids, because we have two teenagers. But when we started this research, when For Women Only came out, which was the first of these research books, my son was one, and my daughter was four. And they sort of grew up with us kind of learning and stumbling through this and trying to figure out what we were doing. 

 

I actually have seen, for example, for me with my son... He's 16 now. There have been times where I absolutely recognize that I have shredded his little spirit in pieces, because of how I've handled something. And I know perfectly well. Again, he's a guy. And for a guy, it's all about am I any good at what I'm trying to do? That is it. Am I any good? [00:34:08] 

 

So when I have been exasperated with him, you know, like, "You forgot to turn in the science project. Come on, we worked on that," and the exasperation is rising in my voice, I wouldn't have recognized that what I'm saying is, you're an idiot. I never would use those words with my sweet, sensitive son ever. But that's what I'm saying when I have that tone of voice. 

 

It doesn't mean I always do it perfectly. Obviously, I don't, or I wouldn't even know of this. But unfortunately, I've recognized the times that I've really shredded him. It's hard, but I've recognized how much I need to pull back and apologize and work to build him up and help him see himself as being a strong guy who's honorable, and who's trying to make a difference in the way he handles things and given the belief that he is good at what he does. [00:35:08] 

 

That is so crucial. And it is so lacking in society today, especially for young men, because they've grown up in a world where it's okay to say that men are buffoons. They've grown up in a world where all you see are men being idiots on TV or whatever. And that's not real but that's what they see. 

 

So me going the other end of pointing out, "I'm so proud of you, you worked so hard. This test, I know it took a lot out of you and I'm really proud of how you buckled down and what you accomplished. I probably would have said a couple of those things. Like, I would have said, good job, and then left it at that, as opposed to making a point out of making sure that I'm saying those things. 

 

Laura Dugger: I think it's understandable that you're saying this isn't natural and that's why you have to keep retraining yourself. But also that it is possible. And when you gain this knowledge, if you apply just little pieces, that it can radically improve your relationships. [00:36:13] 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. It's little bits of knowledge here, little bits of knowledge there, and little aha moments. Once you see them, you go, Oh. And once you apply them and you see that it works, I mean, that's the best incentive to continue. Because that's when you start seeing the transformation. 

 

I see the look on my son's face when he feels like he has tried and failed and tried and failed. And I see the look on his face when he's tried and tried and tried and finally feels like he's done well. Sometimes it sends me to tears. And how much I want for him to grow up feeling like he can do this. 

 

Laura Dugger: Going back to what you had said, every book that you've written and published then has funded the next research project, it reminds me of the Proverbs 31 woman who considers her field and buys it, and from the prophet then she plants a fruitful vine. Well done with that. But we would love to know, what are you working on next? [00:37:16] 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, actually, this is something that really was miraculous. It came out of the clear blue sky. Actually, it's just come out in March of 2020. Jeff and I have been studying why we fight about money. A huge topic in marriage is money. We've never studied it before. We studied everything else. We studied parenting and intimacy and in-laws and relationships and pornography and everything. Like, how could we never have studied money? 

 

So the book's called Thriving in Love and Money. It's essentially, why do we fight about it? Why do we avoid talking about it? Why is it that I'm really tempted to try to pull the Amazon package off the front step before my husband gets home? What is that? And sort of what's underneath the surface. Or people who have great communication around money. Why is that? What allows that to happen? It turns out none of it is about the money. It turns out it's entirely about all these things going on under the surface. [00:38:23] 

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So timely. We will definitely link to that book in our show notes and on our resources page. I'm so glad that it's now available. If listeners want to purchase your book or find out more about you, where can they connect with you further online? 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, go to shaunti.com for my website, and you can see the research there. S-H-A-U-N-T-I is how you spell my name. But they can get the book anywhere, any online or any retailer. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. This time has been so invigorating. I'd love to end with one final question, Shaunti. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: I always try to understand what's going on under the surface of what just happened. So if my husband looks like he's angry, okay, what is it? And sometimes it has nothing to do with me. But I always learn something. [00:39:25] Or something that makes my daughter really happy. Like, why did that make her so, so happy? What is that? And you learn so much about people that way. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, that is such a good savvy sauce. Your kindness just shines through this interview. I can even hear your smile as we're chatting. So thank you for being my guest today and thank you for all the work that you've done in this field and the relationships that you've helped. 

 

Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, thanks. I really appreciate the chance to share with your audience. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:40:29] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:41:31] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:42:33] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

92 The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee

92. The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee 

 

Ephesians 4:16 (NLT) "He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.” 

 

Sarajane Case is an author, speaker and podcaster based out of Asheville, NC. She's been featured in publications like apartment therapy, the every girl, parade magazine and was named a 2018 person on the rise by honey book. With an instagram account of over half a million followers, a podcast that regularly stays at the top of the charts in self-help and a book coming out in April of 2020 Sarajane is a rising leader in the self-help industry. You can find more from her on Instagram at www.instagram.com/enneagramandcoffee, her podcast - Enneagram & Coffee can be found on iTunes and Spotify and her website is www.enneagramandcoffee.com. Make sure to pre-order her book ‘The Honest Enneagram’ wherever books are sold.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Other Episodes of The Savvy Sauce Describing the Enneagram: Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

Deep Dive Into the Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

Books & Resources to Learn More About the Enneagram:

The Honest Enneagram by Sarajane Case

Enneagram & Coffee Podcast

Enneagram & Coffee Website

Connect with Sarajane on Instagram: @enneagramandcoffee

Dr. Jerome Lubbe’s Website

The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile

Sacred Enneagram by Christopher L. Heuertz and Richard Rohr

The Complete Enneagram by Beatrice Chestnut

The Enneagram Institute Website

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: A Perfect Promotion

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

91 Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

91. Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane

 

Titus 2:15 (AMP) “Tell them these things. Encourage and rebuke with full authority. Let no one disregard or despise you [conduct yourself and your teaching so as to command respect.]"

 

Arlene Pellicane is a speaker and author of several books including Parents Rising, 31 Days to a Happy Husband and Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life.   She is also the co-author of Growing Up Social: Raising Relational Kids in a Screen-Driven World (with Dr. Gary Chapman).  

 

Arlene has been a featured guest on the Today Show, Fox & Friends, Focus on the Family, FamilyLife Today, The 700 Club, and Turning Point with Dr. David Jeremiah.  She writes regularly for Proverbs 31 Ministries and Girlfriends in God.  Arlene earned her BA from Biola University and her Masters in Journalism from Regent University.  Arlene lives in San Diego with her husband James and their three children Ethan, Noelle, and Lucy.  To learn more, visit www.ArlenePellicane.com 

 

Arlene Pellicane's Website

Arlene Pellicane's Podcast

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Growing up Social by Dr. Gary Chapman and Arlene Pellicane

 

Books by Arlene Pellicane:

Parents Rising

31 Days to a Happy Husband

31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom

31 Days to Becoming a Happy Wife

31 Days to a Younger You

Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life

 

Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell

Anger: Taming a Powerful Emotion by Dr. Gary Chapman

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

90 Friendship with Drew Hunter

90. Friendship with Drew Hunter

 

Proverbs 18:1 “Whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire; he breaks out against all sound judgment” 

 

Drew Hunter is the teaching pastor at Zionsville Fellowship in Zionsville, Indiana. He is the author of Made for Friendship: The Relationship that Halves Our Sorrows and Doubles Our Joys. Drew and his wife, Christina, live in Zionsville, Indiana, and have four children.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Made for Friendship by Drew Hunter

 

Connect with Drew on Twitter @drewfhunter

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”