The Savvy Sauce

199 Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic

199. Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic

 

‬‬“Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.” (‭Job‬ ‭14:5‬ (‭NKJV)

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What are some of the best reasons to praise God for our limits?
2. How can limits humbly teach us the value of being interdependent upon one another?
3. What is your favorite take-away you learned from the process of researching God's good design of our limits and how has it personally changed your life?

 

Kelly M. Kapic is professor of theological studies at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia, where he has taught since 2001. Kelly and his wife Tabitha have two children, Jonathan and Margot.

 

He has written and edited numerous books, including Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering (IVP Academic, 2017), which won the Book of the Year Award from Christianity Today in the category of Theology and Ethics.

Kelly Kapic's Website

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes on Sabbath

99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit

175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Our sponsors for today's episode are Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria.  Check out SolidRockChristianAcademy.org for their alternative schooling option with a solid biblical view. And visit CFAEastPeoria.com for available employment opportunities or to place your catering order. 

 

My guest for today is author, professor, and theologian, Kelly Kapic. Kelly recently authored a book titled, You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News. His insights are so well thought out. His recommended changes to the way we approach efficiency have the potential to positively impact your life. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kelly. [00:01:18] 

 

Kelly Kapic: It's so good to be with you. Thanks for having me, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: It is truly my pleasure. You had mentioned in your book this interest in limits has intrigued you for more than two decades. So I'd love to know, where did your curiosity originate?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, thanks for asking. There's both personal and theological reasons for that. Maybe the personal would be the right place to start or even focus for this conversation. And some of it's just... some of your listeners will be able to relate to this. 

 

Whether it's at the end of the day, you know, you finally get a minute and you sit on the couch or you put your head on the pillow at night or maybe first thing in the morning when you wake up, in those situations, I so often had found myself kind of being surprised by levels of guilt and shame coming over me.

 

As I kind of would explore that, I was surprised at what I found. Because it's one thing... you know, I'm a theologian. I believe in the reality of sin. [00:02:21] We need to be honest about it. And if a sense of guilt or shame comes because I've been cruel to a coworker, I've said unkind things, I've undermined school or whatever it is, then I need to repent and just really enjoy the beauty and grace of Christ. 

 

But actually, often that sense of guilt or shame was related to some version of this. Kelly, why didn't you get more done today? Why didn't you do more? And so feeling like, you know, is that how we're supposed to feel, I really became very interested in exploring, is that right? A different way of saying it is, what does God actually expect of me in a day, in a month, in a year, in a lifetime? 

 

And I really have found this pretty common among Christians and non-Christians of this endless sense of not getting enough done and guilt and shame about that. So I really wanted to explore, how should we think about those things?

 

Laura Dugger: I'm curious to hear your findings then as well. Could you even just share one takeaway of what God shared with you through this process? What is an answer to that question? [00:03:25] 

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. The short answer is God said, Kelly, you're human and you're not God. So chill out. And we all know the right answer to that, right? If I say, hey, do you think you're God, Laura? You're like, of course not, right? But so many of us in our lives and even what we push on to our children, it's these endless expectations to do more, to be more, to know more.

 

So what does it actually look like to be faithful? And really by slowing down and starting to think through, how does God view me? What does God value? How should we think about this life? With so many external pressures on us, and the church has baptized many of these, we've kind of said, you know what, what really is valuable to God and to life is productivity and efficiency. Do as much as you can and be as efficient as possible. 

 

And I'm really questioning some of that. I love efficiency. I love productivity. But when you take a good thing and you make it the most important thing, it actually can become quite a bad and destructive thing. [00:04:29] So those are some of the ways I would start to think through it.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and I'd love for you to now speak to the person who feels far from this message or perhaps they're skeptical of this topic. Kelly, what are some of the best reasons to praise God for our limits?

 

Kelly Kapic: Well, because, again, He's God and we're not. Part of what happens here is until we start to come to terms with what it means to be human and the goodness of being a human as God originally made us, it distorts everything else until we get back to that. And this is partly why there is, especially in our contemporary culture, kind of a gut reaction against this. And it's this. So if I said, Laura, I was talking to one of your friends and they were really describing you and they said, you know, she's a really dependent person. You know, when we hear the word dependent, you now instantly think, Oh, that person wasn't speaking nicely of me. Right. It's like a negative. [00:05:33] 

 

Part of what I'm interested in exploring is actually biblically what it means to be human is to be dependent. We were made — this is part of the goodness of how God designed us — we were made to be dependent on God, to be dependent on our neighbor, and to be dependent on the earth. And so the very fact that in our culture, the idea of dependence has such an almost exclusively negative connotation attached to it really makes authentic Christian spirituality very difficult. 

 

Now, it is true there are problems like codependency, but that's not what I'm talking about. But we are made to depend on God, others, and the earth. So we are skeptical of these things because we framed not just the American dream, but Christian spirituality in overly individualistic, rugged terms. That undermines our humanity, undermines our community. 

 

But when you can change this and start to see how God intended us as humans to be limited and once you recognize limits, then you recognize the beauty of I need you, I need God, I need the earth. [00:06:42] It starts to open up brand new things. I mean, we could talk about humility if you want it as an example. But this actually is not just God saying, it's okay you're limited. I know it kind of sucks, but it's okay. Like, no, no, no. This is part of the beauty and goodness of his design. It's not part of being a sinner or something.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's elaborate there, then. How can limits humbly teach us the value of being interdependent then upon one another?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's great. So we all know Christians, even non-Christians know, you know, we should be humble. That seems like a good thing. But if you ask most Christians just kind of offhand, you say, why should we be humble, very often our gut reaction is, well, because we're sinners. And it is true we are sinners and that can contribute rightly to the fact that we should be humble. But if you try and build the idea of humility on the foundation of sin, the fact that we're sinners, it actually distorts the whole thing. 

 

If you think the reason we should be humble is because we're sinners, then often in both explicit and implicit ways, what Christians are often told is, you want to become more humble? Focus on what a bad sinner you are.  [00:07:54] 

 

Well, I do think we need to be honest about our sin and our weaknesses. But if you do that, then the path forward is actually by focusing on just how terrible you are, which ironically tends to foster self-absorption just in a negative way and often forms of self-hatred and stuff. But if you build the idea of humility, not on the foundation of sin, but on the foundation of the goodness of God's creation, recognizing even if there were no sin, even if there were no fall, humans were meant to be humble. Right? That's the question. 

 

Adam and Eve before the fall, should they have been humble? The answer is yes. Why? Because even before sin, they were meant to be dependent on God, dependent on others, dependent on the earth. So that humility doesn't just say, I'm sorry, and can you forgive me? Although it does do that. But humility also says, I don't know. Can you help me? Right? Those are creature words.

 

So part of what I'm trying to explore is this idea that God made us as creatures. [00:08:55] So we use this word finitude, which is a fancy term. We don't use it a lot. Finitude just means limits. Limits in space, time, knowledge, power. And the Christian version of the word finitude or limits is creature.

 

To be a creature, a good creature, a good human creature, is to recognize our need and dependence on God, others, and the earth, so that humility can be fostered then in a healthy way by learning to delight in other people, to celebrate them, to not view them as threats. So Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the early 20th century says sin isn't what makes us dependent. Sin is what twists the dependencies. It twists the limits so that now I view the other, my neighbor, as a threat that I either need to dominate or ignore. But Christian humility says, no, I can celebrate them. I can receive what they have to give. I can give to them. We're in this together. There's something bigger. So anyway, that's kind of a lot. But they give you a taste of how this is meant to be liberating, not suffocating. [00:09:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: I like that. And I love it. I think it was just one of my favorite parts of the book. It's on page 178, where you are talking about this idea of being dependent upon one another. I am just going to read one of your quotes because it was brand new to me. You wrote, "Today I am caring for prisoners in jail. I'm evangelizing the disenfranchised in Nepal. I am praying over the sick child in the hospital. I'm serving the recovering victims of sex trafficking. I am standing against racial injustice and I am caring for the widows. And I am doing so much more. How? I am doing all of this because I am part of the living body of Christ. God's Spirit has united me to Christ and because of that union, to my sisters and brothers of the faith. We are one. I am part of the church, both local and global." So will you elaborate on that? [00:10:59] 

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. Thank you. That's great. One of the examples of how this works out is as Christians, we see all the important work that needs to be done in the world. For example, in Matthew 25, it's red letters. So it's got to be really important, right? But Jesus talks about this in Matthew 25, and he tells that very sobering story about the sheep and the goats. And the thing that separates the sheep and the goats in judgment is, did you care for the naked? Did you clothe the naked? Did you feed the hungry? Did you visit the prisoners? This kind of movement towards the marginalized. What do we do with that?

 

I remember I had a former student of mine. He's now in ministry in California, and he called me, and he's very thoughtful. And the single guy pours himself out in university ministry, and he said, "I'm just thinking about this text, and it haunts me." He's like, "I do ministry, but I'm single. I don't have very much money. I'm exhausted. Do I need to start signing up for the food shelter? Do I need to visit prisoners? Maybe I'm a goat." [00:12:09] 

 

And when we hear him, someone like that reflect, we're like, "Oh, man, chill out, guy. You're like taking this stuff too seriously." But his problem is not that he's missing it. It's not that we're so much more advanced and spiritual than he is, and he's just overly concerned. It's just we're just not taking Jesus seriously, and he is. 

 

So the question is, what do we do? How does this kind of work? And you can multiply the examples. Without fully getting into this, I can read the chapter on it. The options we have right now, especially in our politicized, polarized day, is either you need to do everything, and everything needs to be activism, or you do nothing, and you call all of it just politics, and let's stay away from it. 

 

But the church has calls. So how do we understand the sheep and the goats? Does that mean I personally need to visit all the prisoners, I personally need to feed all the people? No. But don't take from that that means God doesn't care about caring for the poor, the needy, the hungry, the prisoner. [00:13:15] And that is vital. 

 

So how does it work? Well, it works because if you read the biblical text in a more corporate understanding of the people of God, then it gets transformed. The way I would put it in one sentence is the aha moment is it takes the entire church to be the one body of Christ. It takes the entire church to be one body of Christ.

 

So we fulfill Matthew 25 not as individuals, but as the corporate church. So if our church really doesn't ever care about the poor and the needy, if there's no one who's doing these things, that's actually a big problem. But that means I can celebrate you in your work that's different than mine because I need you and you need me.

 

And so my friend ministering to college students is doing what a lot of us can't do. A woman I know who's a lawyer in Chicago is so busy, but she is ministering to those college students through Matt, right, because she is connected to him by the Spirit, and he is benefiting from her faithfulness in other ways. [00:14:21] So there's a lot more you could say on that, but the beauty of our interconnection is actually a positive rather than a negative.

 

Laura Dugger: It is. This message promotes so much freedom and an invitation for participation. That just brings us back to Jesus and the good news. That is what he calls us to. So I love that.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. Because I like how you put that. People often worry, if you talk about this, no one's going to do anything. And I question that, at least from my experience, and then, you know, as readers and others talk to me. I think when we don't do anything often is when we look at the needs and the demands and we're crushed by them, right?

 

So we see a lot of people... I work with college students for a living, and you can get a 20-year-old to run through a brick wall for a big cause, and like, yes, I'm going to change the world, and they're going to do all this, and then at 28, they're going to write you because they're totally burned out, right? [00:15:21] 

 

So the beauty is we get paralyzed when we think we have to do everything, but as you said, if you realize, I don't have to do everything, I just have to do some things that God's called me to, then you actually can participate. And that's the right idea. We don't have to do it all, but we do get to participate. That's beautiful.

 

Laura Dugger: I'm so excited to tell you about our two sponsors for this episode. 

 

[00:15:46] <music>

 

Sponsor: Solid Rock Christian Academy in Morton, Illinois, and also Chick-fil-A, located in East Peoria, Illinois. Solid Rock Christian Academy is a brand-new private grade school, and they currently have a kindergarten class for the 2022-23 school year. They are planning to add a grade each year, and they are offering both first grade and kindergarten for fall of 2023.

 

Their goal is to provide their students with a solid biblical education with curriculum that both challenges and meets each student at every learning level. They also believe in offering low technology in their day. They encourage parental involvement through volunteering, and they have a learning environment that teaches students respect, discipline, and real-world life lessons. You might have noticed their remodel this past year at their new location on 4th Street in Morton. 

 

For more information on enrollment for your child, or if you have a teaching degree and are interested in applying, or if you're interested in donating to their worthy cause, you can visit their website, SolidRockChristianAcademy.org. 

 

[00:16:58] <music>

 

Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria remains one of our consistent and loyal sponsors. I will limit myself to my four favorite things. First, if you like free food, you've got to download their free app. Simply stated, when you eat more chicken, you get to enjoy more treats.

 

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[00:18:11] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Kelly, what would you say are a few of your conclusions to the question, do I have enough time?

 

Kelly Kapic: The conclusion has got to be yes. As painful as that is, right? We always think "I don't have enough time. I don't have enough time to pray. I don't have enough time to read my Bible. I don't have enough time to do my work." 

 

One of the messages of the book is when we feel this right now, and this includes in Christian circles, we're all feeling crushed, and the only answer we all give is better time management. I think it's not a time management problem. I think it's a theological and pastoral problem. 

 

Because even the idea of managing time is a bit mythical, right? All of us only have 24 hours in a day. So the question is, what does faithfulness look like? So God gives each of us only so much time. We all have bodies. Those bodies need to be fed. Those bodies need sleep. God is the one who gives you a family, gives you a community. [00:19:15] He's calling you into certain responsibilities. So we shouldn't resent or belittle those.

 

We have to be realistic about what commitments actually look like. I think rather than trying to get more time, we need to rethink this. What surprised me is... I think the biblical answer is to cultivate the fear of the Lord. And you're like, what are you talking about? I thought we were talking about do you have enough time. 

 

But it's interesting, the fear of the Lord biblically is not primarily about being scared of God, although sometimes that shows up. But the fear of the Lord is really, if you could put it simply, it's cultivating an awareness of God's presence, of His kindness, of His work, and what He's doing. You're living in the fear of the Lord. You recognize Him throughout your days.

 

One of the things we so struggle with in our day is learning to be present. I would say the beautiful thing is if we can learn to be present with God, we also learn to be present with other people. [00:20:16] That means slowing down a bit. That means being fully present with God, being fully present with others. That changes the equation. So this may not make a lot of sense, and people would have to look more into the chapter. 

 

But I think there is a sense in which we can cultivate the fear of the Lord, which is this awareness of God's presence throughout our days. And that can slow us down and make us reevaluate. Should I do this? Should I not do this? What does faithfulness look like? And that starts to raise certain questions about always valuing efficiency and productivity as our highest goods.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. I've got my book right next to me. I've highlighted throughout. So one more quote from page 120 that's on this topic. And this may have been my very favorite in the book. But you say, "When productivity alone reigns, we cultivate idolatry rather than worship, isolation rather than community, and selfishness rather than love. [00:21:16] Could you add or elaborate to that thought?

 

Kelly Kapic: Thank you. It's so funny because I'm an American. I love efficiency and productivity. But here's the thing. What's the most inefficient thing you can possibly do? It's love, right? Whether it's a newborn child or a puppy, whether it's a spouse or an aging parent or a friendship. Once you love, you're risking. And now, love actually makes demands on us. It takes time, right? 

 

As you know, one of the shocking things to parents when they have a firstborn is they often thought, Oh, we could just keep our life. And now we're adding a kid. My wife, who's really funny, but when our firstborn was born and Jonathan was tiny, I remember people saying, "How's it going?" And she'd say, "It's good, but he's just super needy." And you'd see this horror on people's eyes. And she's joking around like, of course, they're needy, right? He needs her constantly. Otherwise, he'd literally die. [00:22:21] Well, that's not efficient. That's not, you're not getting a lot.

 

One of the things stay-at-home parents will constantly tell you is so frustrating because of how, quote, unquote, little they're getting done. But if love is God's highest priority, not efficiency and productivity, that equation changes. But that is not an easy message in our day because we have all, whether we know it or not, including me, bought into the narrative, the highest value is productivity and efficiency. And therefore it breeds discontent and an inability to just be present in the season of life God has called you to.

 

Laura Dugger: You also teach that Jesus does not overburden his flock. And so then what is a better way to live, even if we do feel like we're experiencing time poverty?

 

Kelly Kapic: I mean, it kind of goes to what we were talking about with the sheep and the goats. That actually we need the whole church to be faithful. [00:23:22] We do have to ask hard questions when we think about our lives and how we're spending our time. You know, it is funny. The great gift of Twitter and Facebook and those kind of things is it kind of ends the idea that none of us have time to pray. Because that was pretty clever. I'm not actually on Facebook or Twitter, but, you know, that idea of we do have time. 

 

Now, I actually think the reason so many of us spend so much time on things like Facebook, Twitter, binging on Netflix, and stuff, rather than blaming those things, I've started to think the amount of time people spend on those is not so much the problem. It's a sign of a deeper problem. And that is we feel crushed by the endless expectations. So those kind of diversions and distractions allow us to just breathe. So they're coping mechanisms that culturally we've kind of... 

 

So rather than blaming those things, I would say, why do we just want to binge Netflix? Why do we just want to crash? [00:24:25] Well, part of it's because of these unrealistic expectations. So Jesus doesn't have unrealistic expectations for you. He knows exactly who you are. He knows the seasons of life that you're in. And if you have newborns, it's very different than if you're an empty nester. 

 

If you're single and you have this kind of income, that's different than if you're 42 and you're... No one knows us better than Jesus. And He is not up there constantly frustrated. Part of what He's saying is, what does faithfulness look like? And I think that's a better question rather than, did I get enough done? All of that.

 

But it does bring up these deeper questions of how does God actually view you? What does God think of you? What does God expect? I guess I would just add to this one other thing that's related is how does God view us? 

 

One of the things that I've really tried exploring the book is, I think we've misunderstood the way God views. So if you ask a Christian, does God love you? We are all like, yes, of course, God loves us. He's God. He has to love us. [00:25:28] 

 

But if you change the question... I have college students in my office sometimes who are really struggling and I'll say, do you think your parents love you? And they'll say, of course, they're my parents. But if I ask them, do you think your parents like you? It's amazing how often tears will come to their eyes. They're sure that their parents love them, but it's kind of like a requirement because they're their parents. But they're not actually sure their parents like them. 

 

I actually think the same thing with God. We think, God's God, He has to love us, but He certainly doesn't like us. And that's worth wrestling with. Because who is it that made you with your particularity, right? God doesn't love our sin. But the reason why He wants to deal with our sin is because He actually wants to liberate us to be the particular human creatures He's called us to and loves. He actually likes what He made. He doesn't like the sin that distorts it.

 

So anyways, now I'm meandering a bit, but all of those things are actually related to growing comfortable, being a good human creature in the midst of a full world, and recognizing I don't have to be God. [00:26:36] I need to love God, neighbor, and earth. I don't need to do everything.

 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful then, even playing that out with the practicality of time. But let's also talk about stress. What are your thoughts on stress as you've studied it, even biblically?

 

Kelly Kapic: There's a chapter where I kind of distinguish stress and anxiety. People use these words in different ways, and there are some technical ways to even use the word anxiety. But for our purposes, I would just say, I do think there's a distinction there worth keeping, because we often tell people how stressed out we are. 

 

But when you think about it, stress itself is not intrinsically or inherently bad, right? If you hear a lion roar, you could feel some stress. That stress is kind of what will get the adrenaline going. You might be able to climb the tree faster. If you have a due date of something and you feel some stress, that actually surprisingly can help you rally to get things done, etc. [00:27:41] Stress is not bad.

 

Even scientifically when people talk about our bone structure and that kind of thing, there's a certain amount of stress or tension the body needs to develop and maintain muscle and strong bones and that kind of thing. But all that to say, stress doesn't have to be inherently bad. But the problem with stress is when you move from episodic, occasional, helpful things to a lifestyle.

 

So this is why when our bodies are on full alert all the time, it's one thing if you go, Oh, I'm in midterms. I need to push really hard. I feel that stress. It's another thing to live all of your life, not getting sleep, working too hard, and all that. So I think that is where we end up with a problem. And our bodies can feel it, right?

 

As many of your listeners will know, Van der Kolk's famous book, The Body Keeps the Score, by the psychologist. And basically, your body, at some point, it stores trauma, it stores these things. And at some point, your body says, That's enough. So I would want to distinguish that. [00:28:52] 

 

And then anxiety, when it says, do not be anxious, we want to be careful because of that word, how it gets used. But I don't think God is saying be naive. I don't think he's saying just upward and onward, be happy all the time.

 

But there is this sense of we shouldn't have to live constantly anxious about the next moment and about life. So if we find ourselves living in a state of perpetual stress, with high levels of anxiety, we should be asking some pretty fundamental questions about, have we misunderstood the life God has called us to? And then what decisions can we make to try and change this situation?

 

Laura Dugger: I love your paradigm shift, where you just teach that stress is a good gift from God, but it's a terrible master.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's right.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you to all our patrons who financially support this work. You put a smile on our faces when you sign up to become a patron. Your generosity is both inspiring and encouraging, and we are so grateful. [00:29:59] 

 

I also want to invite everyone else to join the club. So visit thesavvysauce.com and click on the patron tab. Then follow the prompts after clicking "Join Patreon here". When you contribute at least $5 a month, you automatically will have access to a bonus library of content. New podcasts are available exclusively to paying patrons every month. And every quarter you get a new downloadable scripture card designed by Ang at Jars of Grace. So visit thesavvysauce.com and click the patron tab today. 

 

What has God taught you about process?

 

Kelly Kapic: It's amazing that something like process is related to the whole conversation of our finitude and limits. For example... This relates to my concern about the doctrine of creation. If you ask Christians, they're like... I just think evangelicals and many Christians the last 150 years have a very underdeveloped doctrine of creation. [00:31:01] And people say, no, we talk about it all the time. But when we talk about it, we only tend to talk about when did God create the earth and how did He do it, right? And those can be legitimate conversations. But when it gets reduced to that, it distorts everything. 

 

So go back to the creation narrative, because this relates to process. Here's the question. Could God have made everything instantaneously, like in a millisecond or faster? And we would all say, yes, of course. So it doesn't matter if you think the earth is, I don't know, 10,000 years old or if you think the earth is 10 billion years old, as radically different as those are. 

 

What's interesting, no matter where you're at on that spectrum, everybody has to admit that God who could have made it instantaneously doesn't. He takes days, whatever that means, right? And after each day, he says, oh, that's good. That's good. This God likes to build. He takes time.

 

As Genesis 1:2 talks about the spirit hovering over the Tohu va-Vohu, over this chaotic waters, and He's bringing about order. [00:32:01] So all that to say that God, even before their sin, God has always been comfortable taking His time. He's comfortable with process. 

 

And part of what we need to see is the God of creation is the same as the God of recreation or the God of sanctification, the God of redemption. It's not a different God. So God is comfortable working in our lives.

 

So you and I, we're like, I'm so grateful I'm forgiven of my sins. But then it's like day after day, we're wrestling with sin. And you think, well, am I forced to just think God is perpetually disappointed? Like, "I can't believe you sinned again. I forgave you, but I can't just keep doing this? Why aren't you growing? Why aren't you developing?" 

 

But if you think, no, no, God, God's comfortable with process. He delights in process so that He doesn't want you just soaked in sin. The example I would give, maybe this would help, is say Margo, when my daughter was learning to walk and she was little, like everybody's seen children learn to walk. And I'd set up Margo and have her put her hand on the couch.[00:33:05] I'd back up about eight feet. I'd say, "Margo, come to me. Come on, come on, sweetie." And she nervously, but eventually moves her hand from the couch and starts to walk to me. And you know, what's going to happen? She hits the ground, right? And so I yell at her and say, "Margo, I told you to walk." Of course, I didn't do that, right? She's my daughter. I went over and I said, "Oh, Margo, it's okay. Good job. That's great." And kissed her wherever there might be a bruise. And I said... 

 

And we all know I did that because I love my daughter. And yet we think God is like a bad father. That when we fall, He's like, "I can't believe you. I told you not to sin." No, no, no. He's a Father who comes over and lovingly picks us up. It's not that when I'm doing that with Margo, I think Margo walking... I don't care if you learn to walk or not. No, no, no. I knew she needed to walk, but I also knew it would take time. She needed muscle development. She needed balance. I knew her situation and it would be a process. [00:34:04] 

 

God knows our situation better than we do. And He who began a good work is committed to seeing it through, even though it's going to take way longer than we think. So, anyways, those are some of the thoughts on process.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, that's good. And even some truths from the Old Testament, but you also draw in your book from New Testament that even Jesus grew. And we can learn so much through that.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. I mean, there's shocking verses. Luke 2:32. He grows in wisdom, in stature, and in this way that God talks about this kind of growth. How do we think about that? How comfortable are we with a baby Jesus, with a teenager Jesus, all of that?

 

And people say, but the Bible doesn't talk about that. It doesn't talk about Him as an 8-year-old or Him going through puberty or Him... Actually, that's beautiful. The fact that the Bible doesn't talk about it tells you how normal it was. Because what the Bible tells you is what is surprising and unexpected. [00:35:03] So it doesn't tell you Jesus went and used the restroom. It doesn't tell you Jesus laughs heartily at His friend's joke. He didn't have to tell you that because it all happened just like it happens for everybody. Right? It tells you the surprise: being born of a virgin. It tells you these kind of things. But the fullness of his humanity, including His growth in those kind of... He's not growing and becoming more divine. These are deep Christological theological questions. 

 

But for our purposes, yeah, He really does grow. And that doesn't ever mean it's not growing from being a sinner to not a sinner. He never was a sinner. And yet he experienced growth.

 

Laura Dugger: And I love that. It makes me think of parenting. So Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man. So the physical part and intellectual and spiritual development and the EQ changing.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. That's good.

 

Laura Dugger: So then also in light of parenting, there was a section of your book that I thought was particularly thought-provoking, specifically, when you unpack the question, is God efficient? [00:36:11] Will you elaborate on that, especially in light of parenting?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. I mean, it kind of when we're talking about efficiency and productivity and even process. Given the fact that God could have made the world instantaneously and doesn't, there's a sense in which that's not as efficient as it could have been. God could have made the world just gray, different shades of... You know, there's plenty of people listening to this podcast, I don't mean this derogatory, but there's plenty of people listening to this podcast if you walk into our houses, every wall is white. And the reason is it's very efficient.

 

Then if there's a scratch or whatever, you got one bucket of paint, it can go anywhere. It's real simple. So why didn't God just make everything white? The extravagance of a peacock's feathers, the depth of people's voices, the differences in the variety, all of the color, in a sense, it's kind of like, come on, God, did you really have to do that?

 

And I think actually all of those things show efficiency is not God's highest value. [00:37:13] He loves beauty. He loves to lift the gaze. He loves to provoke the song. He loves to slow us down. He loves the way connections get made. 

 

So there's all these signs that God has always been comfortable with process, with diversity, those kind of things in terms of beauty. God loves efficiency and God can make a dead person instantly alive. He can instantly turn water into wine. It's not that God is against efficiency, but His highest value is an efficiency. It's love. And that does change things. And if we could live more like that, I think it would be very liberating and it would cultivate community and health and wholeness and the beauty of the gospel in ways that we desperately need in our day that's so inhumane.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Well said. For anyone who resonates most with practical life application, how can we then apply these principles?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's great. [00:38:14] As you know, the last chapter, which is by far the longest, really does try and give you various practices. One is cultivating the idea of vulnerability, which might surprise people. That would be worth looking at. 

 

Another is this idea of cultivating both lament and gratitude. And both lament and gratitude because both of them help us... lament is crying out to God with why or how long O Lord, those kind of honest questions you find throughout the Psalms and throughout the scriptures. You think, how is that related?

 

Well, lament and gratitude are two sides of the same coin. Both of them are an honest recognition of our dependence on God and that we can't control everything and that we're not in charge. So when painful things happen, we cry out to God in our dependency, God, why? Where were you? What is it happening? And that's actually a good, healthy sign of spirituality. 

 

But similarly, we cultivate gratitude. [00:39:15] We cultivate this sense of look at how God showed up, look at how He provided, look at this beautiful gift of a relationship I didn't expect. And it's really about having eyes to see and ears to hear. Anyways, that's some practices that we talk about. 

 

Actually, it was really fun to write in that chapter a section on a theology of sleep. How sleep is is a matter of faith. If you're in a war zone, soldiers can't sleep because they're worried someone's going to shoot their back. Unless you have someone to guard your back. 

 

Well, it's very interesting. Christians have a theology of sleep. We can sleep because, as the Bible says again and again, God never does. That's the beauty. And when we're pushing ourselves and thinking, no, I always need to do more, I can't rest, it's a sign, we actually think the world depends upon us and God is absent.

 

Sabbath. This doesn't have to be about legalism, but just this beautiful way in which God made us in this one-in-seven rhythm of taking a day of genuine rest, of worship, of connecting with people, of reconnecting with our humanity and with the earth. [00:40:25] I actually in the book gives some ideas of different practices that I think we can implement in our lives that will give us a healthier view of our humanity and what it means to be a creature and to be finite.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. We've previously done a few episodes specifically on Sabbath. I love that topic.

 

Kelly Kapic: Oh, good.

 

Laura Dugger: I'll definitely link to those in the show notes. But then I'd also love to know, Kelly, through these decades of curiosity and putting everything together in this book, do you have a favorite takeaway that you've learned from this process? Then how has it personally changed your life?

 

Kelly Kapic: For me, a lot has been really leaning into this idea of healthy dependence, of humility, and learning to genuinely not lie to other people, not manipulate people, but genuinely learn to celebrate other people's gifts, what they bring. The fact is we are dependent. [00:41:26] And the fact that we ignore it hurts us in those relationships.

 

It's one of those beautiful things when parents... when a child gets old enough and they start to say, thank you, mom, thank you, dad. And it's one of those signs of immaturity and a problem when the kids never recognize and express gratitude. But that's in all kinds of things. Thanking the people at the grocery store, thanking your colleagues, thanking... We are dependent on people all the time, but we don't recognize it, so we don't think of it that way. 

 

Anyways, just kind of being more holistic, being more grounded, being able to really delight in other people and recognize and see them. To be seen is a big deal. I want to be seen. I know other people want to be seen. We don't put it that way. But it's amazing how transformative that can be.

 

Laura Dugger: And if this really struck a chord with someone, where would you direct us all to learn more from you after today's conversation?

 

Kelly Kapic: Oh, thanks. [00:42:26] On this particular topic, the book, You're Only Human, which is an exploration of this kind of thinking through what does it mean? So the book is You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News. But I'm actually not on social media. So sadly.

 

Covenant College, where I teach, has a page for me. So that's where people can click in when they ask me to come speak and that kind of thing. But I'm not out there. For your readers, to be honest, I would encourage them to consider reading You're Only Human or the book Embodied Hope, which is a slow reflection on pain and suffering. Those might be the two that would most resonate with your audience.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for that direction.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, you've got it.

 

Laura Dugger: And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce.

 

Kelly Kapic: I love that name. It's hilarious.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, Kelly, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:43:24] 

 

Kelly Kapic: I think, honestly, my answer is probably quiet, learning to be silent and learning to pray in a slower way. I'm a Presbyterian. Is there really a Holy Spirit that's still acting? And the surprise is, yes, there is. And to be present and quiet with God rather than just filling that time up with God with words always, for me has been transformative and really helpful. And God bring people to mind that you want me to pray for and bring things to mind that you want to change in me. And not constantly filling up immediately with words and seeing what God does has been an example of His grace in my life. That's been really helpful. So maybe that might help some of your listeners.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Kelly, you are very kind and thoughtful, both in your responses to these questions today, but even in the words that you've published in your book and our email correspondences as we were scheduling this interview. [00:44:28] So thank you for bringing this message forward for all of us to benefit from and thank you for being my guest.

 

Kelly Kapic: Oh, it's been great, Laura. Thanks so much. I hope this podcast and your other work continues to flourish. This is great.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:45:29] 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:46:33] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:47:34] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

198 Divine Productivity with Matt Perman

198. Divine Productivity with Matt Perman

 

“Our people must learn to do good deeds to meet necessary demands [whatever the occasion may require], so that they will not be unproductive.”

‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭AMP‬‬

 

**Transcription Below**

 

“For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.”

‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:5-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

Matt Perman is author of the best-selling book What’s Best Next: How the Gospel Transforms the Way You Get Things Done and is a frequent speaker on leadership, work, and theology from a gospel-centered perspective. He has worked at Desiring God Ministries as director of strategy and The King’s College NYC as director of career development. Currently he is a manager of strategy at Bed Bath & Beyond. He received his M.Div. in biblical and theological studies from Southern Seminary and lives in New York City. He blogs at whatsbestnext.com. 

 

Questions we discuss:

1. What exactly does God have to say about productivity and why do you think He cares about it?
2. You teach is "Productivity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit." Will you say more about that?
3. How do we recognize if we've gone too far focusing only on productivity?

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription **

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGm.com. 

 

My guest for today is Matt Perman. Matt has been writing about gospel-driven productivity for many years, and he's going to share more about productivity as a fruit of the Spirit. He's also going to share unexpected lessons about kindness and generosity and how they relate to bringing God glory. 

 

Much of this conversation is based on his book, What's Best Next: How the Gospel Transforms the Way You Get Things Done. [00:01:18] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matt.

 

Matt Perman: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by sharing a bit about yourself and your current phase of life?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. I grew up in a Christian home, which was wonderful. My parents, they just had a Bible on the coffee table in the living room, so I'd dip into it every once in a while out of curiosity. I kind of appreciated. It was kind of a low-pressure environment in terms of faith. You know, it was recognized, these things are true, these are things we should believe, but there wasn't pressure put on us. I actually responded very well to that.

 

So I came to faith early, had some ups and downs, but really started taking my faith seriously in college. I got involved in some great Christian ministries at the secular college that I went to, and so that was a wonderful experience. [00:02:18] 

 

And then I worked for a well-known pastor and author, John Piper, after college for many years, running the web department in strategy. Now I am in a totally new stage of life. I'm living in New York City, and I am working at a Fortune 500 company, and having a blast seeing how all of these productivity practices apply in the corporate world, and how maybe you need to customize them a bit sometimes. But really what I'm finding is, wow, they also work in this corporate business environment as well as regular life and the nonprofits that I've worked in previously.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And that is fascinating. Such different areas of life, but that it all applies. You have studied and written about biblical productivity for years, so what exactly does God have to say about productivity, and why do you think He cares about it? [00:03:19] 

 

Matt Perman: It's interesting. He does have a lot to say about productivity. It's fascinating. When I first started working on the book, I got some pushback from people. They were like, That's not very spiritual, and I thought, well, what are you talking about? God invented all of life. As Abraham Kuyper said, Jesus owns every square inch of this world. Every area of life is something He is sovereign over. 

 

So He cares about productivity because He created a world in which we need to be productive, first of all. I didn't come up with this idea that we need to eat food, we need to work in order to be able to make a living and have enough food to eat and shelter and all of this. But there's two really big biblical themes that come into play. 

 

First, there is teaching that God expects us to get a return on our lives, which is fascinating. That's not a monetary return. It's possible for some people that could be part of it, but it's a return of doing good. [00:04:21] We see this in the parable of the talents, for example, where each of the three people are given a different amount, and two of them go back and they get a return, and the third comes back and says, "I was afraid, I buried it in the sand." And that one gets rebuked.

 

The point is, God has given us resources, gifts, talents, amazing things, and we are to put those things to use. Not to make as much money as possible for ourselves, but to bring blessing to others, to make life better for others. And that's the biblical theme on productivity.

 

Then productivity practices help us do that better. Because the fact is, we're in a world with limited resources, so we have to make trade-off decisions. There are certain actions that are going to have a higher output than other actions. And productivity is about determining what those are and then doing them in the most efficient way possible so that we can get the best output from what we do. [00:05:26] 

 

Again, the purpose of that output is not for just our own enrichment or our own advancement. It's for the benefit of other people. And that's something that's very unique about a Christian perspective. Not that non-Christians never take that perspective, but it is really at the core of a Christian perspective on productivity.

 

Laura Dugger: Could you just give a few personal examples of how you do this, either in work or in life outside of work?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. In work, I do come with a mindset of, how do I make the most of my time? And I keep lists. I keep all sorts of lists. Some of this is I'm just doing what gives me the ability to accomplish my job well. So if other people have different approaches, that's fine too. Because I think there can be different productivity styles. 

 

But if I get a big project, I will brainstorm all the tasks that are going to be involved. [00:06:27] You can't know them all in advance, but to the best I can. And then I organize them into logical groupings. And I get this good list at the beginning of the project and I update it as the project goes along and things change on it. But that list really helps me make sure nothing gets overlooked and it helps me go about the work in an orderly fashion. So I find that really helpful. 

 

Outside of work, part of productivity, it's not just about efficiency. It's also just finding cool ways to help people and innovation and doing things unconventionally. I think it's pretty neat to find ways to help others, especially the global poor, in ways that would not have been possible before the growth of technology. 

 

For example, even like lending to entrepreneurs in the developing world through Kiva, I think that is a productivity practice because that's something that you couldn't have done even 20 years ago. [00:07:27] You have no efficient way to get that money to them. But now because of the networks that Kiva has developed and their website where you can identify entrepreneurs and choose which one you're going to lend to, you have the ability to make a difference in Nigeria or Cameroon, helping someone buy a goat or a cow or whatever it is so that they can make a better living and grow their own entrepreneurial endeavor and be more productive themselves. So you can help others be more productive through these creative, amazing tools that were not even possible 20 years ago.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. Thank you for sharing examples. I feel like that gives us a picture in our minds or something to grab onto. But if we go back to big picture, how do you put this all together and boil it down to define gospel-driven productivity?

 

Matt Perman: So this is important. One of the big passages in the New Testament on productivity is, of course, Ephesians 5:15-17. [00:08:33] The whole context of chapter 5 is really important. But it's right there where Paul tells us to make the most of the time because the days are evil. That is a helpful definition of productivity, making the most of the time. 

 

The question is making the most of the time to do what? There's always a purpose in anything that we do, including our productivity. So at the heart of gospel-driven productivity is two things. First, you have a purpose, which is something greater than yourself. It is the glory of God. 

 

And if we ask what glorifies God, one of the biggest things that glorifies Him is doing good for other people in His name. That can be spiritual good, but it can also be material good. It can be emotional good, so emotional support to people. It can be relational good — being a friend, being an advocate, doing good for people in all dimensions of the human experience. And being motivated by a desire to see God glorified and other people benefited. So the motives here are really important. [00:09:49] 

 

There are some systems of thought where they say intentions don't matter, what matters is results. And we know what road is paved with good intentions. and they kind of minimize good intentions. I don't believe that good intentions take the place. If your actions are getting bad results and hurting people, having good intentions does not make up for that. So I'm not saying intentions are all that matter. We also have to make sure that we are acting with competence and getting good results. But intentions do matter. That is part of virtue. And God cares about the heart. So He wants us to have a certain motivation in what we do.

 

So with gospel-driven productivity, I try to make that primary. And that's why I talk a lot about the why we should be productive and so forth. And then within that framework of our hearts and minds, then use cool tools and tactics to get your work done faster with less energy and in less time. [00:10:53] Use all that stuff. 

 

There's a bunch of great secular books out there on productivity. Learn from them because in common grace, God has blessed the world with all sorts of wisdom. It doesn't just come from Christians because God is good to all people, at least in the common sense, in the good sense. And then there's also saving grace and special revelation in Scripture. But learn from common grace and use every helpful tip that you can find to get more done for the glory of God.

 

Laura Dugger: One of those books, obviously, that I would recommend is your first one, What's Best Next. In the foreword to that book, there are some unexpected quotes that are highlighted that I just love for you to explain. So first you write, "Gospel-driven productivity is about bringing the gospel to all nations." So can you say more about that? [00:11:57] 

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. I think it's important that we see our productivity in the context of God's plan for the whole Christian life. One of the things that God wants us to be doing is evangelism and missions. In fact, I would say one of the purposes of our productivity is to help reach the nations better with the gospel because there are still... I forget the exact numbers, but it's something like a billion people who still do not have good access to the gospel. 

 

We need to be taking action to address that. I read a great, in many ways, productivity book years ago before I wrote What's Best Next called The 4-Hour Workweek. It's such a helpful book. And it's written in such a fun way and gives all these tools. But the purpose is basically to get your work done in four hours so you can do whatever you want with the rest of your time. [00:12:59] 

 

And I thought, What if we kind of took that concept, because I think there's something good about that, but tweaked it, and instead of doing what you want with the time you free up, you are investing it in God's purposes and in serving others. And missions is one of those purposes. 

 

Now, Tim Ferriss, he's the author of the book. To be fair, later in the book, he does talk about service later on. So it's not like he ignores that and leaves that behind. But we can bring an even richer definition to that as Christians. 

 

One of the things that God wants us to do is reach the nations with the gospel. So there are two ways productivity practices can help you with that. First, they can help you free up more time so that you get your work done faster. And then in your home life, you get your stuff at home done faster. And now you got more time. What are you going to do with that? Are you going to watch Netflix? No, at least not usually. [00:13:59] Find ways to help in the cause of the great commission with the time that you freed up from your good productivity practices.

 

Second, I was really excited as the book was released that a lot of humanitarian organizations and missions organizations, people working at them, were being helped by the book. We're reading the book and being helped by it, like Food for the Hungry based in Arizona and other places. Even though their primary focus is meeting physical needs, they also have a gospel focus and do it in Jesus' name and do evangelism.

 

This is one of the purposes in my book. I wanted to help people that are working for global poverty relief and world missions. I wanted to help them do their jobs better, do their jobs more effectively so they can help more people, and ideally, maybe not get burned out by having a manageable work-life balance and being able to get more return out of the effort and energy that they put in. [00:15:02] 

 

So that's the second way gospel-driven productivity is about bringing the gospel to all nations. It can help those who are directly involved in that work do that work better and reach more people and get through challenges and obstacles that are standing in their way.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

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[00:16:43] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Another point you teach on is — I'll just quote it here — "Productivity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit." So Matt, will you just say a little bit more about that?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, absolutely. I thought hard about productivity and the biblical connections, especially because of these people saying, Hey, this isn't spiritual. What are you doing?" I had this sense early on productivity is connected to the biblical mandate of good works. So I did a lot of study on what the Bible teaches about good works, and then that's very much related to love.

 

In Jonathan Edwards' great sermon series on 1 Corinthians 13 called Charity and Its Fruit, it's funny that passage is often read at weddings, but really that is a charter for the Christian life and for productivity because it's all about love. He has a series of sermons and it's great. He breaks down the passage. And of course, as we know in there, Paul tells us what love is and describes it. [00:17:49] 

 

One of the things he says is love is kind. And I dug into that meaning of kindness. And kindness, it's not just being nice or being pleasant. It means a disposition to do good for others freely and abundantly. That's the meaning of kindness. And I was like, "Well, that's what I mean by productivity because that's our aim in our productive actions is to bring benefit to other people. So productivity and kindness are really overlapping concepts. 

 

Of course, then over in Galatians, where Paul gives us the fruit of the spirit, kindness is one of the fruits that he lists. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. So when we understand productivity in the right way, that it's about doing good for others, that is being kind, then immediately we see, Hey, it is a fruit of the spirit. 

 

Now, crucial to this is recognizing what I've been saying all along is that the purpose is doing good. It's not necessarily monetary gain or anything like that. [00:18:51] It's just getting greater output from the same input or less input. And that output is the type of thing that benefits others and helps them have their needs met and grow closer to God.

 

Laura Dugger: That makes so much sense, especially when we think about being on the receiving end. The first thing that comes to mind is we moved homes in 2022, just moved across town, but the neighbors came around us and offered meals at different times. And I remember some of them were also in busy seasons like us. They all have young children at home. I thought about this specifically, wow, they did not choose to use their time to veg out and watch Netflix. They structured their day in order to bless our family as well, make extra food, and it helped us so much in a time of need.

 

So just to put skin on everything that you were sharing, that makes so much sense. [00:19:50] And we're so appreciative for people who live this way. I love that definition of kindness.

 

Matt Perman: That is a fantastic example. Yes, that is productivity in action right there.

 

Laura Dugger: Will you also elaborate on why you say on page 95, quote, "Generosity is also the best way to be productive in this life," end quote.

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. That also ties in with the key part of what I mean by gospel-driven productivity, which I forgot to mention. Because if our productivity is going to be gospel-centered, then we have to think about not just our motive as we really do, which I talked about earlier, but also our manner. The actions we take we need them to be done in a way that reflects God and reflects the gospel.

 

So if we think of the gospel, what attributes of God does the gospel especially manifest? And of course, love, sacrifice, concern for us, and generosity. [00:20:55] One of the pastors at my church when I was growing up said, God always gives more than enough. God is a very generous God. And we see that in the cross. He's willing to give of His own Son to meet our needs, bring us back into a relationship with Him. He's very generous. 

 

And if we look at Jesus throughout the gospels, obviously sometimes He's very direct with people, that can be kind, but He's also very gracious. He hung out with tax collectors and sinners. People were attracted to Him. Jesus has a gracious demeanor. And we see this reflected in Paul as well. I think Paul is a great example of Jesus, as well as the other apostles were as well. One of the things that stands out about Paul is how gracious he is with people. 

 

So part of being productive is letting everything we do be infused with grace, which means especially treating people well. A lot of people, when they think of productivity, they're thinking only of our individual actions, like drive, discipline, initiative, perseverance, and those sorts of things. [00:22:04] And that's true. That's very important. 

 

But one of my aims in the book was to broaden our concept of productivity and realize there's not just these individual drivers of productivity. We also have to recognize there are social drivers of productivity. That's how we relate to other people, because certain ways of relating to other people are going to be more effective or less effective, as well as be more accurate reflections of God or less accurate reflections of God. And we treat people well, which means especially treat them in a way that's gracious. We're going to be reflecting God accurately.

 

Ironically, this also will have better results for us most of the time, not always, but better results for us because people tend to want to collaborate and partner with those who are kind and gracious and treat them well. Whereas if you are rough with people and rude, a lot of times people are not going to want to cooperate with you. So it's going to be harder to get things done. It's going to take longer. You're going to have more resistance. Well, that's not productive. [00:23:07] 

 

Ironically, not only is generosity the right thing to do, it also tends to get better results for you. Of course, that's part of the meaning of productivity. You get better results with less effort if you treat people well. So we need to let generosity infuse the way we treat and interact with everybody. That is a key part of what it means to really act according to gospel-driven productivity.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it because what I'm hearing is that it's great to be ambitious. And the "so that" is so that we can love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. And you're making the distinction, not selfish ambition, but it is great to be ambitious and use that to love others well.

 

Matt Perman: Yes. Ambition for others is a crucial and beautiful thing.

 

Laura Dugger: How can we be assured that our productivity or our efforts are eternally fruitful? [00:24:10] 

 

Matt Perman: It's really important here to have this broader definition of productivity that I'm talking about. It's not just more money, certainly not even chiefly more money. It's not more leisure time. It's not just, hey, my life is going better. I have more peace of mind. There is this other focus. It is for others, not selfish. 

 

Then this motivation, not only for the good of others but for the glory of God so that they would find their needs fully met in God. This motive is a big piece of it. I mean, it really is because God looks at the heart. We only have so much control over the outcomes of our work. Sometimes almost no control. Sometimes we have a measure of control. But we never have total control over the outcomes.

 

I like how Martin Luther would put it and so many other Christians since then. Work your hardest and leave the results to God. So don't measure your productivity by what you see. [00:25:12] God is the one, you know, in terms of eternal productivity, He's the one who knows all of that.

 

The most obscure person who no one has ever heard of might actually be one of the most productive people on the planet because they're doing incredible things for the glory of God. They might not be well-known things, they might not have status or anything like that, but they're doing exactly what God wants them to do and nobody knows about it. So we can't measure based on human terms necessarily.

 

At the same time, if the things you're doing just persistently get no results, you've got to change your strategy. The point there is adjust because you're trying to add. The point is to help people, not just feel good about yourself because I'm trying.

 

So if you're not getting results that does tell you you should probably adapt, make some changes. But nonetheless, don't fret over what's not in your control. So you act with good motives, according to the best that you know, and you leave the results to God. [00:26:11] 

 

And you have this broader definition of productivity that it is about benefiting people and helping people come to know Him better, not about your own personal peace and affluence. Then if you focus your actions on the things that God values, so building relationships, meeting the needs of the people in your path, especially if they are oppressed and marginalized, helping people come to know Him better or see Him more clearly, being willing to be bold but tactful, these types of things are the productive things.

 

So if you do them from faith out in reliance on Christ, so He's working through you and you have the purpose of his glory rather than your own, you will be acting in ways that are eternally productive. So as we see here, making sure we're eternally productive doesn't mean being the time nut who schedules every minute of his day. [00:27:13] Unless you really thrive doing that. I think I've met one person who does. I don't think anyone else. 

 

But don't come up with these artificial standards of things that seem productive, but really are not like over-scheduling yourself or trying to over-control yourself. That's not necessary. That's not what it's about. You got to maintain a measure of freedom and spontaneity in everything.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, I'd love to press in a little bit more to that probably because I'm feeling a little convicted with that last point. But as a mom of four young kids serving our family and trying to do some work on the side, I would love to know what is your encouragement for scheduling margin so that that spontaneity can still happen.

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, Marge, especially with, you know, four young kids that can get very, very difficult. John Piper said this thing long ago in a sermon, that the fruit of spontaneity grows in the garden of discipline. [00:28:13] 

 

So having certain discipline routines, like with the kids and with your own devotional time and things like that. And then with young kids, a lot of times, you know, they're going to almost be taking up almost all of your time. But you can have even some disciplined routines that allow spontaneity. I mean, even things like — this is interesting — having meals together as a family is a type of combination of discipline and spontaneity. 

 

The discipline is, you know, you're cooking dinner, you're sitting down and you're eating together. And sometimes that might be chaotic. But during that time together, there's a lot of spontaneity. You've created a forum in which the family is freely interacting and maybe talking about things or whatever. So you have spontaneity in there as well.

 

Then permission to take time for yourself. I think a lot of people these days they're going overboard on self-care. [00:29:14] I think self-care is a good thing and all of that. But they talk as if the essence of virtue is attending to our own needs and our own self-care. And it's not. The definition of virtue is literally the opposite of that. 

 

Of course, we have to do it in a sustainable way. So we have to take time. And Jesus did this time for ourselves in time where the pressure's off as much as possible. So giving ourselves permission to do that.

 

Then it can be hard to find ways to do that. That can be one of the biggest challenges with young kids, which can look like definitely partnership, like each spouse helping free up the other to take time, whatever type of break they need, things like that. Getting up extra early, although that's tiring. Or after you get the kids down, having some time to yourself. It truly is a big challenge when the kids are young. There's no question about that. [00:30:13] 

 

So just letting the pressure be off, even about being perfect and having everything done, even up to maybe your very legitimate, ordinary standards. Sometimes I let even my desk at work get a bit out of control. Or like if I'm working on a writing project or something, I don't always have everything neat and stuff because I know how to get things back in order when I want to, when it's time. But I'm taking the time I would have spent keeping things in order in order to invest it in other ways. And that's okay. 

 

So lowering our standards about certain things in order to give our focus where it's really being called for or where we're really being pressed over is definitely okay.

 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful, Matt. Thank you for that. 

 

I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work. And we appreciate each of you so very much. [00:31:13] If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

 

How would you say that we can recognize if we've gone too far and started to focus only on productivity?

 

Matt Perman: I think it was David Allen who said too controlled is out of control. You know, there are several different ways focusing only on productivity can manifest itself. Here's just a small way, which I think we all can relate to. You get to the end of the day and you're like, Man, I did not get done what I wanted to get done today. I only got half the stuff on my list crossed off or maybe only one thing on them. Or I had planned to get a whole lot more done and be in a totally different spot at the end of the day, and you're not there. [00:32:17] 

 

Give yourself grace. Don't beat yourself up over that. Don't feel like, man, I'm lost, I've missed out now because I'm behind on my plans. It's okay because probably the original plan wasn't realistic and surprises happen and all of that. So giving ourselves grace. Not only showing grace to others, but giving ourselves grace is important. And if you're not giving yourself grace, then that can be a sign of you're focusing only on productivity or focusing on it too much. 

 

Then another sign that we might be focusing only on productivity is if we're only looking at results and not the also improving the capacity to get the results. Stephen Covey talks about there's two things you have to care about productivity. There is the productivity itself, the results, but also the productive capacity. That's the ability to produce.

 

Sometimes we get really focused on the production and then the ability to produce declines. [00:33:18] A clear example, this would be if you never take your car in for an oil change because you don't want to take the time to do that or you're too busy with this, well, eventually your car is going to have some problems. So you have to take that time out to get the oil changed to maintain the productive capacity of your car. 

 

Also with us ourselves, we've got to take the time to rest. We've got to take the time away to recharge. We've got to allow spontaneous things that come up to change our plans, change our schedule. All those things, even though they might not feel productive at the time, they actually are productive because they help preserve our energy and our ability to keep producing. They keep us in a happy frame of mind, in a good mindset.

 

Then the other way that we might be over-focusing on productivity is that we just have these narrow definitions like, how much money am I making? [00:34:17] Well, you try to work so fast that it takes all the joy out of it. It's not just about getting more done. It's about getting more done in a way that is satisfying. And sometimes that might be going slower. So recognizing this balance between speed and satisfaction, I think is also a very important thing. It's not always about speed.

 

Laura Dugger: We know that good works do not offer us salvation. They can't. But good works are vital to a vibrant faith life. So can you just define good works?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah. I define good works as anything done in faith. So an act of love done for the glory of God and to meet the needs of other people. That's what good work is. And what is really important to recognize is, I think a lot of us have kind of a reduced notion of good works. We think they are rare and special things like volunteering at a soup kitchen. [00:35:24] 

 

Or when I was growing up, I was in the Boy Scouts for a little bit. And if you make your bed, do this stuff, you get a badge. So you can think of good works as just those things. Or you think of them as extraordinary things, going over to Africa to do missions work as a good work. 

 

All those things are good works. But the biblical conception is the good works are not just rare and special things we do once in a while. Actually, we can be doing good works all day long. Everything we do to meet needs of other people and glorify God is a good work. And that just radically transforms your life.

 

Our jobs are one of the biggest arenas in which we do good works, because the point of a job is to meet needs, to meet them profitably because you're doing it for a paycheck, but you're meeting needs in order to get that paycheck. [00:36:27] So you see your work as an avenue for helping people, as well as making a living. 

 

And you do the work at your job with that motive, actually wanting to help people and finding ways to do it, to do your work such that it will be maximally helpful to people and not just the minimum to get by and still get your paycheck.

 

Your work becomes a means of loving your neighbor and it is a good work. So writing emails, creating a meeting agenda, going to that meeting, running the meeting, or just participating in the meeting, even if you feel bored at sometimes, those things are good works. Creating a marketing plan, an engineer designing a bridge, that's a good work. A heart surgeon doing bypass surgery on someone's heart, that is a good work if the surgeon does it for the glory of God and good of that person. 

 

At home, the things you're doing, making dinner for the family, sweeping and vacuuming, which can be constant, getting things organized, all those things are good works because they're meeting the needs of the family. [00:37:29] So this just revolutionizes the Christian life, because we realize all day long is an arena for doing good works and thus for worshiping.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that, worshiping and being useful. What are your thoughts on stewardship?

 

Matt Perman: It helps us put things in the right perspective. I see it as God owns us and owns all of our possessions, and we are stewards of ourselves and our possessions, which means we manage them not for our own sakes, ultimately, but for Christ's sake, ultimately. So it ties in nicely to the concept of productivity, where we are also acting for the sake of Christ and not ourselves.

 

As a steward, it means you want to use your resources in the way that the one you're stewarding for would approve of. So you need to know what He wants, how He wants you to be using your resources. I think He wants you to use them in a gospel-driven way, in ways that reflect generosity and so forth. [00:38:38] 

 

And what's so, I think, really cool is sometimes the concept of stewardship, like there's this concept in leadership, in secular leadership theory, called something like... I forget the exact name, but it's something like stewardship leadership. The meaning there is just maintain the status quo. But that's not what God wants out of our stewardship.

 

It's not just preserve, make sure you don't lose anything, like the third guy in the parable of the talents, who said, Here you have back what you gave me, but I didn't put it to work because I was afraid I'd lose it, and you'd get mad at me. Well, Jesus rebukes that person for not putting his resource to work, because He wants us to get a return on what He's given us. 

 

And so we need to see that the purpose of our stewardship is to increase the amount of good in the world through the way we manage the resources God has given us, finances, and I would see stewardship as a broader concept of everything, finances, talent, your time. So in many ways, it becomes an overlapping concept with productivity. [00:39:50] 

 

Laura Dugger: And then in light of stewardship, do you have any biblical theology on leisure and television and screen time?

 

Matt Perman: Well, definitely. I think that's very important. There's this great book by Leland Ryken called Redeeming the Time: A Christian Approach to Work and Leisure. So it's a book on work, but he said, wait, I can't write about work without equally writing about leisure. And that's kind of rare, because there aren't a lot of Christian books on leisure. But I read this years ago, and it was so helpful.

 

So he made the case, we need to have a theology of work, but we also need to have a theology of leisure. So I developed my theology of leisure largely in alignment with that book. And he was drawing from the Puritans and great Christian thinkers of the past.

 

One of the key pillars of a good theology of leisure is recognizing that leisure is good, and it's good in itself. It doesn't exist just for the sake of making it possible to do more work. It is good in its own right. [00:40:51] And so what this means is, when you take time for leisure, you don't have to justify it by the fact that it'll help you get more work done. It's just intrinsically good in itself. 

 

Then, of course, there's different forms of leisure. Leisure for the worship of God, there's leisure for time with family and stuff. And then there is a component of recharge. Obviously, that happens. But you don't need to justify leisure by the fact that it will enable you to get back to work at a higher level of concentration and energy. 

 

Then coming into this, something like television. John Piper, who I worked with so long, he always says, Turn off the TV. He doesn't even have a TV. Sometimes I'm just so tired, I just want to watch TV. So I do watch TV sometimes. I think it's acceptable. I think there's a place for that. Ironically, I think studies show TV actually doesn't relax you very much like we think it does. [00:41:54] But I think it's okay. I think there's a place for it. It absolutely can be overdone. 

 

But I look at things like television and screen time as moderation, not to feel guilty about. And there are some cool movies to watch and cool TV series to watch. The Chosen. I've been really enjoying that. I find it to be a meaningful show. And the actor who plays Jesus, I think he does a great job and really embodies grace and love for other people. 

 

So I think we can get a small glimpse of Jesus a little bit from watching The Chosen. I mean, it's very small. I think the Gospels are better than watching any performance of the Gospels or of Jesus. But that's an example of TV redeemed well, where there's just a movie that you like. It's part of fun. And fun is a legitimate thing and a good thing.

 

But ideally, you want to be doing the type of leisure that can legitimately be called recreation, the meaning there recreation. [00:42:59] So things that genuinely recharge you, not necessarily for more work, but just to recharge you. So relational things.

 

The ancients felt that conversation was the best use of leisure. And I agree with them. So yes, I see a place for television and screen time. But I think the best use of leisure is conversation and being the type of people that are able to carry on fascinating, meaningful conversations with others. I think that is one of the best things you can do with your leisure time.

 

Laura Dugger: Amen to that. I love that point. Do you have any recommendations for ways that we can expand our capacity or any examples of really practical application of how you live this out or you've heard other people live this out well?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah. So to expand our capacity, I think that visualization is a helpful practice. [00:44:04] Just meaning picturing yourself doing things. Nothing new age about it or anything like that. In terms of like a challenging work activity that's coming up or project or anything coming up, it's going to be hard to do. Picturing yourself doing it.

 

And then a lot of times you identify some quicker ways to do it in advance. And then you go in and like you're already ahead of the game. So thinking ahead and seeing yourself doing things in advance is a really helpful practice.

 

I'm starting to try to tie in things more like positive self-talk. So talking graciously to ourselves. That can be the concept of self-talk can be taken off in kind of an odd psychological direction. But it doesn't have to be. Martin Lloyd-Jones talked about a lot of times we're just listening to ourselves. We need to preach to ourselves. And we need to talk to ourselves as people who are valuable to God because we are. That's true. So instead of having negative self-talk, "Oh, I'm so bad at this. I'm terrible at this. I'm etc., etc., etc.," positive self-talk. [00:45:23] 

 

Don't talk to yourself the way you wouldn't want someone to talk to you or the way you would never talk to anyone else. Talk to yourself the way you know you should talk to other people because you are also a person. 

 

And then just basic things like... it is helpful to get up early to carve out some time to prepare for the day, get individual tasks done. I have traditionally been a night person. In college, I usually stayed up till two, but I'm kind of transitioning. I've been transitioning probably over the last 10 years or so. Now I really like early mornings. If you're a night person, you can use a couple hours late at night. If you're a morning person, a couple hours early in the morning. But that really is useful. That is very useful. And right now what I'm doing with that time is getting extra reading done.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. And then even thinking of your calendar, are there really specific practices that you use? And are you more digital or paper? [00:46:27] 

 

Matt Perman: So digital with my calendar and to-do lists and all of that. I still find... this is one of my most helpful practices for 15 years now, longer probably. An hour a day at the start of your work, whatever your work is, getting up to date on email and just input that has come in. Now that's not the heart of every job. I definitely know that, but it's a component of every job. 

 

Even as a homemaker, there's stuff. I mean, maybe the sink is broke and you're trying to get things set up with a plumber, getting estimates and all of that. You got this paperwork component of just about any type of work in this world. And by paperwork, I mean computer for the most part. And having about an hour of focus time to handle that stuff, the stuff that's changed and happened over the last 24 hours is just really helpful. [00:47:32] 

 

Then for the rest of my day, my job is largely at a computer. I will deal with stuff as it comes up, obviously, and all that. But there's always some stuff where you're like, I can't handle that now. I got to hold off on that. This hour, usually the first hour of work in the morning, that's the time to do all that stuff. So it doesn't keep getting put off. I just find that so helpful. And it's doable. If you think in terms of an hour, it doesn't have to be four hours, just an hour, get as much as you can in that hour.

 

Laura Dugger: That makes sense to then more so maintain it rather than letting it pile up. Matt, if people want to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you direct all of us to go?

 

Matt Perman: Anyone can go to whatsbestnext.com. We'd be excited for you to check that out. I have a blog there. I haven't blogged much recently, but that goes back about 15 years on productivity and related stuff. [00:48:35] 

 

I offer coaching, productivity coaching, speaking events, and some other things. So there's lots of great stuff on that website. You can learn more about the book. The book is also called What's Best Next, and you can pick that up at Amazon. But yeah, check out the website, whatsbestnext.com.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will put a link for that in the episode show notes for today. And you may already be aware our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Matt, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Matt Perman: I love that name. Here's my savvy sauce. Reading for at least one hour every day. Consistency is the key there. That adds up. It's like putting savings into the bank account every single day, except the savings is knowledge.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. That is so well put. [00:49:35] I appreciate all of that knowledge that you have accumulated over time. And the cumulative effect is incredible just to see the overflow that we've all experienced because of your self-discipline in this area. So thank you for sharing all of this with us today, and thank you for being my guest.

 

Matt Perman: You're welcome. Thanks for having me on The Savvy Sauce.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:50:34] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:51:34] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:52:36] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release Discipline Strategies and Managing Mom Guilt with Karen Stubbs

Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline Strategies and Managing Mom Guilt with Karen Stubbs

 

2 Corinthians 7:10 (NIV) “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.“

 

Karen Stubbs is the founder and leader of Birds on a Wire, a ministry designed to equip moms through truth, encouragement and community. She is the author of 3 books, Letters to Moms, Moments with God and Tips on Motherhood.  She has also developed small group curricula for moms that is being used across the United States and in nine countries.  Karen is the wife of Greg Stubbs and they have four grown children. She is passionate about challenging moms to experience motherhood in the way God intended it for them and their families. 

 

Karen’s Website

Karen’s Podcast 

Karen’s Books 

 

Other Podcast Recommended: Heaven in Your Home with Francie Winslow

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

197 Compelling Grace, Forgiveness, Purpose, and Hope in Jesus with Peter Mutabazi

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes thematic material.

 

197. Compelling Grace, Forgiveness, Purpose, and Hope in Jesus with Peter Mutabazi

 

Luke 12:48b (AMP) "From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What details are helpful for us to be aware of for life as a "street kid?"

2. How did the kindness of one stranger change your life?

3. Will you catch us up on the process of coming to America and how it eventually led you to become the difference-maker you are today?

 

Peter Mutabazi is an entrepreneur, an international advocate for children, and the founder of Now I Am Known, a corporation that supplies resources that encourage and affirm children. A single father of one white son and foster dad to many, Mutabazi is a former street kid who has worked for World Vision and the International Committee of the Red Cross, and has appeared on media outlets such as the BBC and the TODAY show. A passionate and popular speaker, he currently lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. Learn more at NowIAmKnown.com.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Zimmerman Builders

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

196 Parenting for the Relationship with Sandra Stanley

196. Parenting for the Relationship with Sandra Stanley

 

Proverbs 27:18 a “He who tends the fig tree will eat its fruit,“

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you share the story of how you and Andy arrived at your overall vision and goal for parenting?

2. How does the “law of the harvest” apply to parenting?

3. Will you share your family's personal "keystone habits" you chose to set in place, rather than creating a long list of rules?

 

Sandra Stanley received her bachelor of science degree from Georgia Tech and master of arts from Dallas Theological Seminary. Sandra has a heart for foster kids and foster families, as she and Andy have been foster parents since 2010. Her ministry passion is promoting foster care in the local church. Much of her time these days is spent working on various writing projects and continuing her involvement with Fostering Together, the foster care initiative of North Point Ministries.

 

North Point Community Church Resources

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

195 Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank

195. Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank

 

Proverbs 27:23 (AMP) "Be diligent to know the condition of your flocks, And pay attention to your herds;"

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What are some things you learned as you researched more about tech use and our children's developing brains and bodies?

2. What led to your initial tech detox in your home and what were the unexpected results?

3. Will you share your five steps to prep for detox?

 

Molly DeFrank is the founder of the online Digital Detox, where she helps free families from their addictions to devices. She has a degree in international relations and worked as a press aide for former California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. These days, she is a stay-at-home mom and foster mom to six kids ages twelve and under.

 

Connect with Molly

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Leman Property Management

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

194 Big-Family Logistics, Peace in Chaos, and Abiding in Christ with Kirsten Watson

194. Big-Family Logistics, Peace in Chaos, and Abiding in Christ with Kirsten Watson

 

Matthew 11:28-30 (NIV) "“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”"

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What has God taught you through fame and living life in the public eye?

2. If you could give busy women one piece of advice, what would it be and why?

3. What are your best practices for investing in your marriage, your children, and your friendships?

 

Kirsten Watson is a mom of seven and wife of author and retired NFL player Benjamin Watson. After graduating from the University of Georgia with a marketing and Spanish degree, Kirsten worked for a Fortune 500 company and then in the nonprofit sector, aspiring to one day run her own company. Now she’s CEO of a family of nine and the executive editor of MomLife Today. With Benjamin, she founded the One More foundation and together they cohost Why or Why Not with the Watsons. Learn more at thewatsonseven.com or follow Kirsten @_kirstenwatson_.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

193 Biblical Principles as Wise Business Practices with Steve Robinson

193. Biblical Principles as Wise Business Practices with Steve Robinson

 

Matthew 5:41 (NKJV) "And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two."

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you share a few of your favorite stories from your time spent working with Chick-fil-A?

2. Will you elaborate on other biblical principles  you have seen that are actually the best business practices as well?

3. In the same way Truett was a neighbor by sharing food, what are a few ways you've witnessed Chick-fil-A Operators responding to difficult situations in a neighborly manner, with food?

 

Steve Robinson's Website

 

Steven A. Robinson is an author, speaker, and consultant and the former executive vice president and chief marketing officer of Chick-fil-A, Inc. As chief marketing officer, Robinson was both a witness and participant in the company's remarkable development into an indelible success. Steve and his wife, Dianne, have two children and four grandchildren.

 

Other Episodes Related to Chick-fil-A:

 

The Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Mark Dugger

 

How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life with Dee Ann Turner

 

Managing Family, Career, and Health with Leslie Neslage

 

Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development with Jeff Henderson

 

Stewardship as the Daughter of Chick-fil-A Founders with Trudy Cathy White

 

Leadership Training: Five Key Elements for Creating Customer Loyalty in Your Business with Elizabeth Dixon

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

192 Strengthening Your Marriage: An Interview with Gary Thomas

*Disclaimer: This message is intended for adults and is not meant for young ears.

 

192. Strengthening Your Marriage: An Interview with Gary Thomas

 

Proverbs 4:7-9 (NIV) "The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.”

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What are replicable traits you have observed to be present in healthy and spiritually vibrant marriages?

2. How is self-understanding related to honoring God and growing in intimacy in marriage?

3. What is your advice when expectations are not met in marriage?

 

Gary Thomas’ writing and speaking focuses on bringing people closer to Christ and closer to others.   He is the author of 20 books that together have sold over two million copies and have been translated into more than a dozen languages. These books include When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People;  Sacred Marriage: What if God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy?, The Sacred Search: What If It’s Not About Who You Marry, but Why?, and the Gold Medallion award winner Authentic Faith.

 

Gary holds a B.A. in English Literature from Western Washington University, an MA degree in systematic theology from Regent College (Vancouver, BC), and an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from Western Seminary (Portland, OR).

 

Gary’s speaking ministry has led him to speak in 49 states and nine different countries, and on numerous national television and radio programs, including multiple appearances on Focus on the Family and Family Life Today. Gary’s interviews on Focus on the Family have been chosen among the “Best of 2013,” “Best of 2014” and “Best of 2017.”

 

Gary enjoys running in his spare time and has completed 14 marathons, including the Boston Marathon three times. He and his wife Lisa have been married for 35 years and they have three adult children and the smartest, cutest, most adorable granddaughter on the planet.

 

Gary is active online through his website (www.garythomas.com), twitter (@garyLthomas) Facebook (www.facebook.com/authorgarythomas) and Instagram (garythomasbooks) and Garythomasbooks.Substack.com

 

Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Gary Thomas:

Nine Ways to Connect with God with Gary Thomas

Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:

Vibrant Relationships in Marriage and Parenting with Dr. Sharon May

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Justin Maust, EOS Implementer and Speaker

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

191 Friendships Heal Racial Divides with Dr. Clarence Shuler and Dr. Gary Chapman

191. Friendships Heal Racial Divides with Dr. Clarence Shuler and Dr. Gary Chapman

 

Proverbs 18:24 (NKJV) "A man who has friends must himself be friendly"

 

Questions we discuss:

1. During a time when your community was navigating desegregation, how did you meet and grow your friendship over time?

2. Why do you think God celebrates diversity?

3. What are the key ingredients needed for a cross-cultural friendship?

 

Dr. Gary Chapman--author, speaker, counselor--has a passion for people and for helping them form lasting relationships. He is the #1 bestselling author of The 5 Love Languages series and director of Marriage and Family Life Consultants, Inc. Gary travels the world presenting seminars, and his radio programs air on more than four hundred stations. For more information visit his website at https://5lovelanguages.com/.

 

Dr. Clarence Shuler is the president/CEO of BLR: Building Lasting Relationships. Clarence is a counselor, diversity consultant, speaker, and author of ten books, including Winning the Race to Unity: Is Racial Reconciliation Really Working?, Keeping Your Wife Your Best Friend, and Single and Free to Be Me. He and his wife, Brenda, reside in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and have three adult daughters. For more information, visit https://www.clarenceshuleronline.com/.

 

Gary’s Website

Gary’s Social Media Twitter and Facebook Links  

Clarence’s Website

Clarence’s Social Media Links

 

Other Episodes with Dr. Clarence Shuler and Dr. Gary Chapman on The Savvy Sauce:

 

5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

 

Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler

 

Things I Wish I’d Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”