The Savvy Sauce

218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

218. Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Micah 6:8 (NIV) "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you share a few practical sexual education tips with us?

2. What are the best ways spouses can practice communicating well about sex and what are the potential benefits?

3. How does "desire tend to work differently for men and women"?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness.  Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb, and one daughter-in-law.

 

Secrets of Sex and Marriage Website

 

Building Intimate Marriages Website

 

Previous Episodes with Dr. Mike:

Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Donate to Savvy Sauce Charities here!

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

Laura Dugger: Hey friends! This is our final episode of 2023 and I want to share some exciting news with you. It has been a dream to launch a non-profit to resource people so that they're inspired to grow in intimacy with God and others. Well, this dream officially became a new non-profit this year called Savvy Sauce Charities.

Beginning January 1st, The Savvy Sauce podcast will now be under the umbrella of Savvy Sauce Charities. And here are just a few changes to explain what that means. 

First, we're no longer going to have a Patreon option. If you want to support the podcast and all the work that we're doing at Savvy Sauce Charities, I encourage you to still visit our website, thesavvysauce.com, and under the "More" drop-down tab, you're going to find the option to donate. It lists our official name and tax ID number so that you can make a donation that is now tax deductible. We are so grateful for your contribution.

And if this podcast has ever added any value to your life, I hope you consider sharing your finances with us so that we can continue sharing our resources with you. Your donations are now tax deductible and our team is so grateful for your consideration and contribution. So I look forward to meeting you back here on January 1st and until then, I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas. 

 

[00:01:36] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:01:53] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 

Dr. Michael Sytsma is my returning guest today. His episodes are some of our most downloaded because he approaches the topic of sexual intimacy and marriage with such care, gentleness, and knowledge and today is no exception. 

He recently co-authored the book, Secrets of Sex and Marriage, with Shaunti Feldhahn and now he's going to provide some insight into their research and findings from this beneficial resource. [00:02:54] 

Here's our chat.

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Mike.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, thank you. It's such an honor to be with you. This is always so much fun.

Laura Dugger: I just want to begin by saying you are an excellent author. Why did you strive for much of your career to not do this type of work in book form?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think there are a lot of reasons for that, Laura. Part of it is it's a lot of work to write this way. I'm a slow writer too. Shaunti was great in keeping me focused and languaging a lot of it. We spent hours and hours and hours with me talking through the principles and then her distilling them and writing them. So much time.

The other thing is there's some great stuff out there. You know, Cliff and Joyce Penner's book on Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex, I just think is... I told them once, yeah, nobody can do better than that. Why would I even try? There's such good stuff out there. [00:03:52] 

And then I think it took me listening to tens of thousands of hours of stories before I felt like I had the credibility to say something that wasn't already out there. So just a number of reasons. But it's been an amazing project.

Laura Dugger: And what would you say was the most enjoyable part of this project for you?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, you know me, I'm a little bit of an academic nerd at times. Just the research, you know, to dig into the numbers and to see what people are saying that they don't know they're saying. We had 502 matched pair samples. So 502 couples where both the husband and wife answer anonymously, but we're able to pair them up to know who's married to who.

So I can ask, how often do you think your wife wants to have sex? And then I can ask the wife, how often do you actually want to have sex? And we can then compare to see how far apart they are. We're asking that of the wives, too: What do you think of your husband? [00:04:54] 

And to see just how radically different couples are at times and how they misperceive each other, that's fascinating. And then the surprises. I've always taught that couples that have more kids have less frequent sex. And that is way not what the data told us. I even ran it three times. I went all the way back to the beginning and redid all of the calculations because I kept looking at it going, "This is wrong. This is not true." 

But it was so dramatic to see the couples that are three or more kids, which I know you don't know anybody like that, you know, their frequency versus the couples that have no kids, a huge number of sexist couples in that category.

And when you come across those kind of surprises, that's the cool part of doing this type of work, I think, to be able to say, well, maybe things aren't what we've been saying. Maybe things aren't what we thought they were.

Laura Dugger: And I love that you are just a lifelong learner and an excellent teacher. [00:05:54] I know that there's a lot that we can cover when it comes to sexual education. But I think it would be helpful to have you share a few of the actionable ideas that you mentioned throughout your book. So will you just share a few of those practical tips with us now?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think the first one that comes to mind, Laura, is a big picture issue that the last couple of years I've been spending more and more time on just seeing the value of it. You know, great marriage, great sex happens not from our skills and our technique, but happens from our heart. And what kind of a heart that we have toward ourself, toward our spouse, toward our marriage.

I keep spending more and more time talking about the value of seduction. My assertion is that in dating, we present our best self, because we're trying to woo, trying to draw, trying to seduce the other into wanting to be with us, into liking to be with us. Getting hooked on us. [00:06:55] And so we're always showing up as our best. I like to talk about that as seduction. 

Part of the principle of seduction is it has to be two-way. It doesn't matter how hard somebody tries to seduce another individual. If we're not receptive to it, we can't be seduced. So early in that dating, we're working to be our best to seduce the other. And then our future spouse receives that seduction and they warm up to it and they allow it to touch their heart. 

Sometime shortly after the wedding, we tend to stop doing that. "Well, this is who I am. It's who you married. Deal with it." Or we close our heart to the other. What you're trying to do to touch my heart, I no longer let it touch my heart because I'm hurt or I'm wounded or I'm angry. I'm punishing you. I'm doing passive-aggressive stuff, whatever. I no longer let the things that used to touch me truly matter. 

And so I spent time helping couples to think through how can you be seductive to each other and then how can you receive that seduction and allow this space between you to be a wooing space, a drawing space. [00:08:06] 

So I think my first practical would be that heart issue of how do we not act seductively, but how do we live seductively? How do we make sure that everything we do from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to bed is presenting our best self, not a false self, but our best self towards our spouse?

Laura Dugger: Then I even think of the research that you've done on a chemical level. So will you share the chemical reasons why couples who engage less are going to desire it less? And if they engage in sexual activity with each other more, they're going to desire it more.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Some of this is still in process in the biochemical field as we're looking at how does some of that play out. As we're talking about this, we're on early edge of stuff that down the road we might go, that's not quite exactly how we expected it to be. [00:09:05] 

But we do tend to see that the law of thermodynamics... Dr. Rosenau used to talk about this. You put energy into something and it grows and you stop putting energy into it and it's going to die. I see so many times couples that intentionally actively work on growing any arena of their marriage, whether it's, you know, we're going to be better parents for a while, or we're going to really work on our finances and budget things or get a good savings going, or we're going to really work on our spiritual life. As we put energy into it, it grows. And it's no different with our sexual life.

I sometimes more so there because as a guy engages in sexual activity, not only is that often prompted by or fueled by our testosterone level, but then it increases our testosterone level. And we believe that there's very likely a cyclical loop that goes on, that the more we're engaging in it, the more it's produced in our system, and the more we desire it, so the more energy we have for it. [00:10:09] 

It doesn't always work quite that cleanly for women. There tends to be another cycle that's often engaged. We think that much the same process works there though, that as we get into the habit, as it were, that it begins to be self-fueling, self-fulfilling, easy for both of those to get disrupted and to fall back. And we have to intentionally put energy back into it again. But if we ignore it for a while, it tends to spin down. And the more we ignore it, the more energy it takes to get it spun back up. 

And couples come into my office who have neglected or because of wounding have stepped away from it, or there's been reasons that they haven't been pouring energy into the sexual part of the relationship. It takes so much energy to get it started back up. But once it gets started, it tends to run without very much energy and it doesn't take too much to even spin it up a little bit more. [00:11:07] 

So yeah, we think there is some biochemical aspect that's going on there as well as just the relationship and the thought process. And maybe some spiritual energy that's coming into it as well.

Laura Dugger: That's good. It makes me think my husband loves to play golf and he will talk about improving his golf swing would be with a swing thought. So just clearing everything and thinking of one thing. So it's making me think of swing thoughts that you've taught me for when I was preparing to see my own clients. 

And you and Dr. Doug and Deborah Taylor would all kind of summarize that as a swing thought to remember where you say a sex life in motion stays in motion and a sex life at rest stays at rest.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Dies. Yes. That is very true. The example that you just gave, as he is focusing in on one aspect of this far broader, larger game that he's thinking, you know, if I could improve this one aspect, it's going to spill into other areas. [00:12:15] 

And doing the same thing with couples. What's an arena that they just don't do real well with? And can they spend a month just attending to it? You know, my favorite is to help couples attend to what I call the reflection stage, you know, that post climax as they hopefully lay there together and connect. That is an easy one for couples to neglect. And to invite them to take an entire month just to drink that in, to figure out what they like during that. 

It may be five minutes, it may be 30 minutes. I've had one wife say it needs to be 24 hours, but whatever they agree to, to how do we enrich this part of our connecting, so it's not just this abrupt end? Okay, we've hit the climax and now I'll roll over and go to sleep and you go back to whatever you were doing. But we drink and we bask in that moment.

Laura Dugger: I'd love to read one of your quotes. [00:13:15] You write, "We must take it seriously that a spouse who is unhappy about how often they have sex is 10 times more likely to also be unhappy in marriage."

Dr. Michael Sytsma: That's huge impact there, isn't it? We found several places that the numbers were just massive like that. Now, of course, we can't tell a couple if you go have sex more often then you're going to have a better marriage. No more than we can say, you know, if you have a better marriage, nobody's going to be dissatisfied with the sexual frequency. 

It may be that there's a tertiary issue going on that's causing both of those. But to see them that highly linked gives us at least some clues. If your spouse isn't happy with the frequency, then they're probably not going to be happy with the marriage. So that's one arena that we could work on the swing to help the overall game of the marriage. [00:14:18] 

Laura Dugger: Sometimes I understand as a counselor being hesitant to write certain things because I know your heart is to make this a safe conversation. And so I don't want to get you in trouble with this next quote, but I love how you just clearly state "for multiple reasons, I encourage most couples to try to keep their engagement at once a week or more."

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, exactly what you're saying. You wrestle with how to say because there are so many reasons why that might not fit for a couple. And we say in the beginning, I write that early preface that says, if this isn't for you, please don't be wounded by it.

But that comes out of my clinical experience, Laura, as I watch couples, couples that tend to be intentional and make sure that this arena of their marriage is important, about once a week tends to keep a fairly healthy balance moving forward. When they drop to every 10 days, it's pretty easy for them to drop to every other week. [00:15:20] And once they drop to every other week, they start losing track. And then it drops to once a month. And once it hits once a month, now we're down to once every three months. And now we're into a sexless marriage and feelings get hurt and it's tough to talk about it. We blow up every time it's addressed. So couples just ignore the subject and then it dies. 

If I see them having a weekly engagement, that tends to keep it at a minimal level of satisfaction, especially if there's... I work with several couples where one is an entrepreneur and they're in the midst of starting a new project. And it just is all consuming for a period of time. But if they are still intentional and connecting weekly, it seems like it draws the couple back together. 

That being said, couples that have sex slightly over two times a week tend to be a lot happier in their marriage. But that often gets more difficult for couples to pull off, even in an intentional way and it starts to move into duty and responsibility and have-tos, which can kill a sex life very quickly too. [00:16:32] Where it seems like about once a week people can do and feel good about and not feel onerous. And that is a goal.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

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Laura Dugger: Differences in desired frequency is a common topic that couples can experience some frustration over in marriage. But what leads to both individuals in the marriage being happy with their frequency of sex?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I want to go back to your question. Not only is it frequent, but more than half of the couples, this is an area of intense conflict. In my dissertation, this was the topic of my doctoral dissertation, and half of the couples experience clinical level of distress because of the desired discrepancy. So to say this is common, it is extremely common and very painful for a lot of couples. 

My major professor in the child development courses in my PhD used to assert that the best parents were radically divergent. The best parents had very different ideas of parenting. [00:19:36] One was going to be very nurturing and the other one was going to be very…. almost authoritarian. And he said, "But it's not the difference that is powerful. It's that they accept influence from each other. And when they approach it from a radically different perspective, and then they accept influence from each other," he said, "what comes out of that is really powerful for the child." And I love that imagery. 

And much of the time, it's the same thing, that a higher drive spouse steps in and they pour energy into it. They're thinking about it. They're wanting it to happen. They enjoy it. The lower energy spouse don't have as much energy, but if they can accept the influence of the higher drive, higher desire, initiating desire individual, it helps to add the energy up. 

The receptive desire or the lower desire person, those aren't always the same, but as two different categories, they're often pointing out there's a couple of things that need to happen for the physical connection to be rich, to be good. [00:20:41] "I need you to touch my heart more. I need to feel like you care for me, not just for my body. I need you to stop screaming and being critical outside of the bedroom so I feel like I want to connect with you." They're often asking for another really critical part of the sexual connection.

If the initiating and/or the more higher desire drive spouse can accept the influence that, yeah, I need to do a better job of laying the foundation or creating a setting that is rich for our sex life, it's going to do better. I think when couples come in with a differing perspective, it can actually be very good for the couple. If they talk about it, if they're curious and open to each other, if they work on being seductive with each other, if they accept influence from each other's perspective, they can find a middle ground that is rich for both of them.

Laura Dugger: Isn't that interesting? Because at the core of that, it sounds like a character piece that each person is responsible for, whether that's self-control or character piece of coachability and humility. That is really interesting. [00:21:53] 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: It is. Sometimes it's setting myself aside for the priority of the we for the us. You know, the reason I went into sex therapy is I tell couples that even the couples that I'm working with, I don't care if you have a good sex life or not. That's not my goal. To have a great sex life requires some transformation of things that are internal to who we are. And as we learn to have a great sex life, it changes who we are. Our character does grow and develop if it's going to be healthy. So yeah, you just pointed out a core part of the whole process to me. It is about discipleship.

Laura Dugger: Even following up with... you explain so many factors in the book to elaborate as well on how couples can be happier with their frequency of sex in marriage. But there's one that you mentioned that I want to have you elaborate on when you write that it's when partners can communicate well about sex. [00:22:54] So what are the best ways that spouses can practice communicating well about sex and what are the potential benefits?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Let me go backwards on that. Let's start with the benefits. The benefits are just huge. This was another area where the impact was so great. My memory, without the numbers being in front of me, it was 6.4 times. Couples who were effectively communicating about sex in their marriage had dramatically increased frequency. They had dramatically increased satisfaction around frequency. They were far happier couples in general. Just the impact is so high.

Now, it is possible that couples that are happy with each other are more open to talking as well. So it can go both ways. But to see that huge impact. 

Learning to communicate with each other is a skill that can be developed. We don't have to just have the innate ability.[00:23:56] We can practice it. We can learn how. So it is a very tangible way that we can create change very quickly in our sex life and in our overall marriage.

Part of the design for the book is to address the question you just asked, because I wrote it continually saying, This is a book that I want couples to sit down with and read it out loud to each other, not with the goal of getting to the end of the book. Though, every time I say that, I cringe inside because I think chapter 10 is some of the richest stuff in there. So I want them to get to that. But it's not to get to the end of the book. It's to pause every couple of sentences and to talk about it.

I was talking with a couple recently, they said, "We took your challenge on." They said, "We actually do this for books on an ongoing basis. So it's pretty common for us to read a book out loud to each other and to talk about it." He said, "But usually we will read an entire section of the book and then pause and talk about it for a few minutes before we move on." He said, "There's so much in this book." He said, "We would read two sentences and we'd have a 10-minute conversation. So then we'd read the rest of the paragraph and we'd be off for another 15-minute conversation." [00:25:08] And he said, "We have learned so much about each other and thinking out loud and wrestling with it." And I love that. That's what it's about. 

For couples that don't know how to talk at all, I use lovetakeslearning.com. There are other materials out there that can teach them just basic listening skills. They may need to go back to that. But then it's just sitting down and practicing it, staying at the table, leaning in. 

When your feelings get hurt, taking a deep breath and calming yourself down. "I believe in my spouse mostly. And so we can do this, I think." And just staying present with it until they figure out how to have the experience of talking well to each other.

Laura Dugger: I love that so much because there are just endless benefits. If you can grow and becoming comfortable with talking about this, I feel like the possibilities are endless after that.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: They are. So much opens up for the couple. [00:26:09] At one level, what we're talking about just sounds so simple, Laura. But because sex is so central to our hearts, because of how society, whether that be the larger society or the society we grew up with, our family, our church community, or whatever we grew up, has a lot of messages about sex that are potentially wounding or restrictive or too unboundaried, whatever it was, we bring that into it. It's easy to get hurt, to get wounded. It's easy to get offended. And yet, if we can stay at the table and we can continually, calmly talk through it, we can find a way to really develop a rich intimacy with each other.

Laura Dugger: I hope that that offers a lot of hope to anyone listening. Dr. Mike, where are we likely to attribute incorrect motives to our spouse? And how does that negatively impact our sex lives? [00:27:12] 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think we do it in every stage of the sex life. I've got a model. They can find it intimacymodel.com. But I've got a model that I walk couples through that gives different stages of the sexual act. I will research each of those stages. 

Couples do misattribution at every stage. Desire is a huge arena for... where I'll ask a wife, if it were totally up to you, how often would you like to engage in sex? And I'll ask the husband, how often do you think your wife wants to engage in sex? And they will be so far apart. The most common answer I get from wives is one to two times a week. And if the couple's in distress, the husband will answer never. And I point to him and say, "There's a big difference between her not ever wanting to have sex, which is what you think, and her saying she'd like to have it one to two times a week. Why do you think you guys are so far apart?" And it's because they're not talking about it. They're not communicating again. [00:28:10] 

Another one we looked at in this research, in the marital intimacy project, is we looked at orgasms and the importance of orgasms and how often a husband, what he identifies as the importance of orgasm for himself, for his wife, or how important he thinks his wife feels it is for him to have an orgasm, for her to have her own. So we've got these cross-questions going all over the place. 

Honestly, wives have men fairly well figured out in some of this, but in some of this, guys are way off in what they think their wives are thinking. And oral sex, the same thing. We looked at a lot of the questions there and what spouses think about the other and what they want and what they enjoy, often they are way off from each other. 

Of course, the more distressed the marriage, the further away they're going to be, the more poor attributions there are. Couples that are pretty happy and are communicating more, obviously we see much less misattribution. [00:29:12] But it shows up in every area, especially if a couple's not talking.

Laura Dugger: I love how you point out how understanding one another is going to be so beneficial. So when we look at men and women, there are differences. So how does desire tend to work differently for men and women?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: It does get tricky, Laura, because this is on a spectrum, and we do see... the numbers tell us that there are stereotypical differences between men and women. But I work with a huge number of couples that walk in and are the flip of the stereotype. 

So I'm always cautious every time we start talking about it to know that a quarter to a third of the audience is going to go, wait, that's not me. But if we start talking stereotypes, more commonly women are going to experience a receptive type of desire, especially a couple of years into marriage or after the first child. [00:30:12] 

Men will tend to experience more of the initiating type of desire, where they are thinking about sex more frequently and they're pursuing it more, where she's going to likely be, "I haven't thought about it in a couple of days, but if you seduce me in the right way, I'd be open to it. And once I'm open to it and I start to engage and I begin to get aroused and I am aware of the arousal and I view the arousal as positive, then the desire kicks in." And we tend to see that a bit more stereotypical for women. 

But that being said, we see a lot of older men, 55 years and older saying, No, that's me now. I sound like that today. That's how I work. So it changes sometimes with whether we want to have kids, how stressed we are in life, how fulfilled we feel in life. It may change with where we are physically. That I am in really good shape and I'm sleeping well and I'm eating healthy versus I'm under a lot of pressure and stress and I'm just not sleeping well and my diet is really poor. [00:31:21] All of those things can make a difference too.

Laura Dugger: You articulate that all so well. I'm just going to keep sprinkling in these quotes, but I love this one. You write, "In general, for men, desire leads to sex, while for women, sex leads to desire."

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, to get something into a book like this, you have to be almost oversimplifying. And I really wrestled with that because it's not fully accurate, but yet it's correct. What we're thinking right now in the field, at least what many of us are thinking, is that desire follows arousal for everybody, that something turns on in our body.

Maybe it's, you know, his wife walked by getting out of the shower and he saw an image that just sparks a release of testosterone in his system. So now he's aroused and he is aware of the arousal, so he experiences the desire. [00:32:26] And so now he wants.

We've seen that for many women they're not as aware of those micro-arousals. They're not as aware of what it feels like to wake up in the morning and have their body already be in kind of a slight arousal state, or they're not aware that that smell or that voice prompts some level of arousal in my body. So then if they're not aware of it, they're not evaluating it positively, and they're not allowing it to shift into desire.

So the thinking is he experiences these micro states of arousal, assesses that the desire turns on very quickly. Then he begins to pursue sexual activity, and now the arousal truly kicks in. So it seems like he experiences desire, pursues the activity, and then has arousal.

Because she's not as aware of it, it seems like the arousal has to come first, that she's like, Yeah, I haven't thought about it in 10 days, but we could do that. As long as I get the laundry switched over and the dishes done, and, you know, the kids in bed, then we can. [00:33:34] And she begins to engage physically, and maybe her mind's not fully there yet. But as her body starts to engage and she becomes aware of it, oh, this does feel kind of, I like his attention on me. Now she's aware of the arousal and she's assessing it positively. Then we see the desire kick in. 

So for her, it seems like there needs to be some sense of arousal before the desire happens. It's not as clean as that, but that's the experience of it. And so that's why the quote is the way it is, that it almost seems to be on opposite ends for the stereotypical male and female. But some of it is the awareness of what's happening in our bodies, too.

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?[00:34:37] 

Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

I don't want to miss this topic as well, because this conversation has been a time of addressing healthy marriages and not destructive ones. But you also write about couples. You say, "often they have heard teaching on divorce that isn't truly biblical and I walk them through what Scripture actually says, for example, to help them see that tolerating sin is sin."

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Correct.

Laura Dugger: Dr. Mike, what are other examples of what Scripture does actually have to say on this topic?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: That almost moves into a whole other podcast as we unpack some of Scripture. I think what I'm addressing there is the couples that come in, and there's a sense of demanding, a sense of "I'm owed. I deserve something. You promised something," and it is turned into a sinful degrading of the other, where we are saying, because you are doing it wrong, you are sinning, and you just need to do what I want. [00:35:55] 

I tell people, pressure rarely is seductive, as opposed to, I see Christ continually inviting. You know, of anybody who had the right to demand from us, we see Him regularly inviting people around Him. And then when somebody doesn't go along, we don't see Him demanding, we don't see Him ridiculing them. We see Him like He told His disciples to do, brush the sand off your feet and move on. 

It gets tricky when we move into marriage because He does challenge us to make a lifelong commitment and hold to that no matter what. And in doing so, if we make that commitment critical, we have to surrender aspects of us that are unhealthy and unholy.

But if our spouse is unwilling to surrender those and moves into doing harm, now there's already sin in the marriage. And we see things like, you know, in the Old Testament, He said, "If there's not protection, provision, and having sex, even the slave women could leave." [00:36:59] 

It seems like there are some rights to marriage that He acknowledges, that if there is trauma and abuse, that is not a healthy marriage. And to demand that somebody stay a part of it, to demand that somebody do what I want because you are my spouse and you have to do it that way, that's not reflective of the heart of Christ. It's not reflective of the heart of God. 

That's a bigger discussion, but I think we can argue that that is not at all scriptural marriage. Scripture gives... I see plenty of options for those couples to get out. Not that I'm giving permission to get out. My goal is to give permission for either of them to say, "This is not healthy. Stop demanding that I behave in the way that you want. Let's communicate, let's accept influence from each other. Let's lean in to find a middle balance that is Christ reflective, that is about the spirit and of the body, that is about pursuing oneness, not about demanding for self." [00:38:04] 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's good. You're making me remember, there was a listener who wrote in and had the viewpoint that she wanted to make her marriage work. And she believes God's ideal is that they were designed to be in marriage forever in covenant.

But she also wrote that after studying the scriptures, she shared how God is a God of compassionate exceptions. And she said, such as healing on the Sabbath. And that helped her recognize that God was actually leading her to separation from her abusive husband because she said, God cares more about the individual than the institution.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh, you know, God's heart is always first for the person. Lots of stories, but one of my favorites is they throw this woman at Christ's feet, who's been caught in a sin where he wrote the law that says she has to be stoned. [00:39:05] You know, the irony here is just rich.

He wrote the law and they throw her at his feet and say, what should we do with her? Well, he already wrote it down for them. Then he turns and looks at them and he says, "Well, who has the right to condemn her? Who is without sin? Obviously, we all know the story. Nobody is without sin. So nobody had the right to condemn her. He's the only one that does. 

His word had already said what is to happen. That is the law. But look at his response to her. His response is one that cares for her in her heart. As He looks at her and says, "I don't condemn you." And He extends profound grace to her. And then a short time later, He hangs on the cross to pay the debt of her sin. He took it upon himself. 

We tend to look at somebody and say, yeah, "That sin, you can't do that. You're going to experience all kinds of punishment because you chose divorce." [00:40:05] I don't see that happening as Christ interacts with people that are caught in a life that is outside of His ideal. And many times I work with couples and I think, There is no way I would allow my child to be married to your spouse. Your wife is just way too unhealthy, too critical, too destructive. Your husband is way too abusive, way too selfish, and demanding. I would not want my child to be married to them. I cannot imagine that God who cares so deeply for a child, us, would demand that we stay into something that is destructive to us.

Now, sometimes He invites us to stay because He knows what He's going to be doing with it. And transformation is very real. And I watch couples stay longer than what I would personally choose for them and I watch God do amazing things in the marriage. You know, scripture says, Let each one know what is right before the Lord, to seek that out with fear and trembling. [00:41:11] 

So I don't think there are good, hard, and fast rules. But I totally agree with you. The people are what's most important to God in the heart of grace. And His compassion for us, even when we step outside of His ideal will, is profound.

Laura Dugger: Well, you also encourage us to have a higher image of God's good gift of sex and marriage, and even say sex is a divine object lesson. So will you elaborate on this idea?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, Dr. Rosenau, who, you know, had huge impact on all of us in the Christian sex field. When I started working with him 30 years ago, he would say that every scripture verse talks about sex. And I was like, yeah, you're a little over-focused there, Doug. But the more I read, the more I listen to people, the more I study, you know, I can't go as far as he did. But, you know, some of it was to push people.

God is continually revealing Himself through His creation. [00:42:10] And He desires us to know Him. And I do agree. Doug used to say, when we get to heaven, we're going to realize that God is a sexual creature. Not like we think of sex, but we'll go, Oh, I get it. That's what you're trying to teach us. That what it takes for a husband and wife to engage truly in an honoring, rich sexual intimacy, it requires the heart of God. It requires a Christlike attitude and spirit. And He regularly teaches us that over and over and over again.

My favorite example of that, I write about in chapter 10, of Him being incarnate, meaning that Christ is fully God and fully man. And if we remove any of the spirit nature of Him or any of the physical nature of Him, we have something that's warped, something that's heretical, something that's disincarnate. 

I watched so many couples remove either the heart of it, the spirit of it, the care, the love, the compassion, the tenderness, the fighting for the oneness connection with each other. [00:43:15] Either they remove that or they remove the body of it. Well, I know you need it, so I'll just be a presence here. No, that's not okay. Anytime we overemphasize or deemphasize one side or the other, we do damage and it's no longer Christ-reflective.

And I think He keeps trying to teach us what it's like to be Him and what it takes to be in relationship with Him. I can say I love God, but if I don't put action to that, do I really love God? It's about both the spirit and the body. And it flows all the way through the process, right down into the techniques that we use in sex have to be incarnate, have to be both spirit and body for them to be rich. And I think He just keeps telling us over and over again, do you not get My heart yet? I keep trying to share it with you. And I love how sex does that on such a rich, profound level.

Laura Dugger: Well, Dr. Mike, you explain things so well, and I'm going to have to link to our previous episodes together. But you still have so much more you could share and teach. So where would you like to direct us all to be able to follow up after this conversation? [00:44:26] 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, there's two websites that people can go to. Secretsofsexandmarriage.com, the book website has a lot of resources there, including, you know, for those that experience pain, trauma, where to find additional help if they're struggling in this area. We've got articles on that website there.

That will also link over to my primary website, IntimateMarriage.org, where some of the teaching is available. They can get some of my streaming courses there. The blog posts that link to various podcasts and stuff that we've written is all on IntimateMarriage.org.

Laura Dugger: Well, perfect. I will add links to all of those places in the show notes for today's episode. And you're very familiar we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Dr. Mike, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I would go all the way back to the beginning of that seduction. And if I could give one key ingredient to that sauce, it would be, stay curious. [00:45:29] Curiosity, you know, we did an entire chapter on it. Curiosity is so profound in its ability to change and to help couples to communicate well. So in being seductive, if they can work on being curious about each other rather than demanding or critical of, it really adds rich flavor.

Laura Dugger: I love that. Dr. Mike, I'm so grateful. I've known you for well over a decade now, and I've been able to witness you lead and teach with humility. And your humility is even apparent from the intro of this debut book of yours. And it was, again, apparent throughout our conversation today. So thank you for handling this topic with care and in a posture that exudes the fruit of the spirit. Thank you very much for being my guest.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You're so very kind. I love what you're doing. Always happy to be a part. You're a really good interviewer too, Laura. [00:46:29] 

Laura Dugger: Aw, thank you. That means so much. 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:47:31] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:48:31] 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:49:34] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

 

 

217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.

 

217. Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Psalm 142:1+2 (NIV) "I cry aloud to the Lord;

I lift up my voice to the Lord for mercy.

I pour out before him my complaint;

before him I tell my trouble."

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Emotionally, what changes can we expect from our daughters as they go through puberty, both what we may notice externally and what they are experiencing internally?

2. It seems like these years can be full of ups and downs, but how can we identify when it is more severe and we need to seek outside help?

3. What do you notice parents and daughters struggling with most during this time?

 

Dr. Jennifer Degler is a Psychologist, life coach, author, and speaker. She is known for her frank, funny, energetic seminars which weave together practical information and Scripture with real life examples from her clinical practice and her own marriage and family. She loves audience involvement and keeping a group on their toes, meaning no one gets sleepy during her talks, and everyone goes home with apply-it-now tools for successful living, satisfying relationships, and improved emotional health. 

 

Audiences say she could’ve been a standup comedian, but Dr. Jennifer prefers helping people through her central Kentucky counseling practice and writing books like No More Christian Nice Girl and the Deck of Dares: 40 Dares to Make Your Marriage Sizzle. Her fabulous adult children, Josie and Jake, delight in telling their friends that their mom runs a sex shop when, in reality, she founded CWIVES.com, a ministry to help Christian wives make their sex lives sizzle. When she’s not podcasting and blogging about emotional wellness, relationships, sex, and spiritual growth on the JenniferDegler.com website, you can find her teaching a women’s Sunday School class, kayaking, and enjoying her empty nest with her high school sweetheart husband, Jeff.

 

Fan the Flame

Dare of the Month

 

Dr. Jennifer Degler's Previous Episode on The Savvy Sauce:

Episode 186 Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler

 

Other Recommended Episodes:

Episode 182: Things I Wish I'd Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman

 

200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com. 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

Dr. Jennifer Degler has been a popular guest previously on The Savvy Sauce when we discussed how to enhance females' pleasure and enjoyment of sex. Today, we're shifting to discuss a much different age group, tween and teen girls, and what to expect as their bodies change and they enter puberty. [00:01:19] 

This is an incredibly helpful conversation for both parents of daughters in this age group, as well as for the daughter herself. It's a gift to gain self-awareness and understand what changes are taking place in their bodies and their minds. So I hope people of all ages get to listen to this episode and glean wisdom from Dr. Jennifer Degler. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Degler.

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Thank you so much, Laura. I just love your podcast, and I'm excited to be able to share with your listeners again.

Laura Dugger: Well, I have to say that your previous episode was truly one of my all-time favorites, so it's such a joy to get to have you back today. For anyone who missed our previous chat, will you just share a bit about who you are and what kind of work you get to do?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Sure. I am a clinical psychologist. I am in Kentucky, and I have a private practice here. I see a lot of individuals and couples. [00:02:23] 

I also have a ministry called CWIVES, which stands for Christian Wives Initiating, Valuing, and Enjoying Sex. I'm kind of known as the sex lady. I speak on sex and have a website to help Christian wives help make their sex lives sizzle. We offer the dare of the month to help them initiate creative sexual encounters, just have lots of fun resources that are safe for Christian couples to access to help in that area.

Then I also do a lot of trauma recovery work and speaking on anxiety and sort of a variety of things that I do. I'm a wife and a mother of two grown children. My son just got married last weekend, so we've launched them both, and just enjoying empty nest life with my husband.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Congratulations on a wedding in the family.

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Thank you. They are someone else's responsibility now, which is really fun. 

[00:03:22] Laura Dugger: Oh, I love it. And you are so gifted with the work that you do. So I'll make sure that we include a link in our show notes that can direct us back to that original episode when we did address married women. 

But today we're actually going to discuss a much different age group. And I want to hear your insight on teen and tween girls. So as a clinician and as a mom, what is a broad overview that we can expect if we have a daughter this age?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Some of the best times of your life and some of the most challenging times of your life as you raise a girl. Overall, I think what many parents experience when they're raising a girl is that those elementary age years, particularly 6 to 10 years of age, we call those the golden years. 

Girls are oftentimes just really a delight. They want to be with you. They think you're the most amazing adults in the world. They want to please. It's a really fun time. [00:04:29] 

Then about two years before your daughter starts her period, there are changes happening hormonally in her body. And so oftentimes the average age of beginning menstruation, menarche is the technical term for that, is around age 12 in America. 

When girls are around 10, which is typically somewhere around fourth grade into fifth grade, you begin to see a shift and she may become more emotional, more moody. You just notice, Okay, this child isn't quite as delightful as she used to be. Even while her personality is continuing to develop, you may see just more emotional changes and more conflict can begin. 

Then as they begin their period somewhere around 12 and then go into middle school and into high school, oftentimes for daughters and mothers, that can be some of the rockiest times because you have two women, both of whom are still riding that roller coaster of hormones. [00:05:37] 

Your daughter is trying to figure out who she is as a person while also still wanting to stay connected to you. So it's a time where we as moms need to be really strong in who we are as people, because you'll tend to get a lot more pushback and just sometimes negative feedback about yourself from your daughter during that time period. 

It can be quite a shock, Laura, to go from being just adored to where they want to be with you all the time, to where to them you're the most embarrassing person in the world. And watching her body develop, watching her deal with body image issues, perhaps can stir up things inside of you as a woman if you also have body image issues. And so it can be quite a roller coaster.

Laura Dugger: I think that's a great description. As our tween or teen daughters age and they're going through what you've explained about their hormones changing and fluctuating, are there any other symptoms or effects that we might see as a result? [00:06:48] 

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Girls follow steps of physical development that can kind of let you know, Okay, here's what's going on inside them. The pattern is as they're approaching puberty, the first thing you see in girls is breast buds. So instead of having that completely basically flat chest, they begin to get those little breast buds.

Then next is the appearance of pubic hair, followed by a big growth spurt, then armpit hair, and then their first period. So breast bud development happens earlier. It can happen as early as eight years old. Usually, it's around 10 years old, so typically around fourth grade. 

It's important that we tell girls during this time period, you know, it's normal for one breast to be smaller than the other as they develop, because sometimes girls will see a difference and they'll think, Oh, my gosh, I've got breast cancer or something like that. [00:07:51] It's just going ahead and letting your girl know that.

Pubic hair typically is happening around age 11, but it can happen as young as eight. Then there's this growth spurt that typically starts around age 10, typically peaks at around age 11. And that's when you're just noticing, oh, my goodness, her shoes don't fit, her shorts don't fit anymore, shirts are too tight.

The armpit hair, typically that's happening in the 12th year. Armpit hair is the best indicator that your daughter is about to start her period. Usually, that first period will occur within three to six months if she hasn't already started her period.

Sometimes they start their period and then they get armpit hair. But typically, once you see that, you know, Okay, the menarche is coming. Typically, as I said, menarche is most commonly happens during the 12th year. It can happen as early as eight. It can happen much later into the teens for girls as well. 

A hundred years ago, the average age was around 17. [00:09:01] It just has gradually as nutrition has gotten better, as there's more hormones in what we eat. Unfortunately, it has started earlier and earlier. But that breast buds, pubic hair, big growth spurt, armpit hair, first period, those are the things to be looking for in between, girl.

Laura Dugger: That is so helpful to have this timeline even to share with our daughters if they're listening to this episode alongside us, just to kind of know what to expect. But also, I'm curious, is there anything you're aware of where the daughter is likely to start around the same age that her mother experienced her first menstrual cycle?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Yes, Laura, you're absolutely correct. The age you were at the time you started your period is really a great predictor of about when your daughter may start as well. [00:09:59] And kind of knowing that, like in your family, about what age did your sisters, your mother, your aunt start their period?

It's also interesting to know that from your husband's genetics are contributing there, too. Like with his family, were they around 12 or were they early or were they late? And then just kind of knowing, Okay, it's kind of a kind of a combination of those two things.

Sort of like birth weight. You can take your husband's birth weight and your birth weight, assuming we're both full-term babies, and average them and you kind of get a pretty good idea how much your babies are going to weigh. 

So that's why it's important that we're not just talking about this sort of thing with our girls, but also with our moms. Like we need this family information so that this becomes something that the women and our family just talk about. We just share this type of information rather than thinking it's something that we need to keep hidden or that we're ashamed of. [00:10:58] 

Laura Dugger: I love that point. Because even beginning these conversations early, I'm assuming this would also help set them up well to have ongoing conversations about anything related to sex.

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Exactly. You know, hopefully the conversations that we're having about our bodies, we start those from when they're old enough to even understand language. So even when we're changing their diapers and when we're helping them potty train, we're using the correct names for their body parts.

One thing I'm seing now, Laura, is that they're trying to use more correct terminology for genitalia. But sometimes the entire female genitalia is referred to as the vagina. That's not correct. You do have a vaginal barrel and that is the birth canal. But the whole genitalia is, you know, we're referring to your vulva and the labia. So to understand that there are different parts. [00:12:00] 

So we have to educate ourselves as moms and that we can begin to talk about these things. When your kids are young, you don't need to hide your pads from them, your tampons from them. That should be just something that's in your bathroom and that they understand in a very developmentally appropriate way what that is for.

We hide things we are ashamed of and we're uncomfortable talking about things that we're ashamed of. So that's why I know for me... I mean, I had to practice. My mom had one conversation with me about sex when I was in third grade, and that was only because I point-blank asked her. Then there was never another conversation. And what I learned about my period, I learned about in fourth grade in public school when we had our health class and never really had any other conversations about that. 

So understanding this isn't just one talk that you have. [00:13:03] It should be just a continual thing as your child is growing up that you periodically come back to and you talk about. Then that's really what makes your child feel like I can come to you with my questions. It's not I never talk to you about any of this, then I have one talk with you and I say to you, "Now, I want you to always come to me if you have questions." They're not going to. They will not.

Your lack of conversation about this over the years has made it clear this is something we just don't talk about in our family. So keep having those conversations from an early age.

Laura Dugger: Well, then I would think another conversation once our daughters are having their menstrual cycle. Is it common for all of the women in the home to sync up with each other or even friends who are around each other a lot?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: So funny question. [00:14:02] Laura, I used to say to my daughter when she would go away to college, and then our cycles would no longer be lined up and then she would come home in the summer, she would totally mess up my cycle. And I would be like, "Your young hormones are coming in and overwhelming my old hormones and they can't fight back. You're messing up my period." But yes, it's interesting, Laura.

We were referring earlier to things that are possibly accounting for the fact that girls are starting their period earlier and earlier. And a huge thing is better nutrition. But it's interesting, though, we can't see the effects of hormones of us just being around one another.

But girls' periods do tend to kind of line up over time. Like if you have a dorm full of girls and they're living around one another and then a lot of times their cycles will begin to align more. [00:15:02] But there has been some interesting research to show that girls who live with a stepfather instead of their biological father start their period a few months earlier on average than girls who were raised with a biological father.

So there is something about being around a man who is not 50% of your DNA that actually will bring on your period a little bit earlier, too. Again, that's not in any way to say that it's wrong to have a stepfather in the home or whatever. But I share that just to say there are things happening that we can't see.

We don't need to get all worried about at what age our daughter is going to start her period and did we do something right or did we give her this milk that had hormones and then... Don't stress out over that. [00:16:03] 

The main thing we need to do is just be prepared as moms and that we've had conversations with our daughters and that whenever it does happen, then that's the right time. You don't need to stress about that. It's the right time. 

And not to feel guilty. I feel like moms today, sometimes we get so much information that we just begin to beat up on ourselves and think, Oh, this should have happened at a different time. It happened too early or happened too late. Or my daughter was away at camp and she started her period and I wasn't there and I missed this big moment. No, no, no. You have lots and lots of moments to parent your children. Hopefully, you have been having some conversations along the way so that she's not caught off guard when her period does come.

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Laura Dugger: And even though we've experienced this as moms ourselves, can you just kind of remind us emotionally what's going to happen with our daughters as they're progressing through puberty? What may we notice externally and what are some things that we can expect them to experience internally?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Because all of a sudden there are those sex hormones that are starting to produce those secondary sex characteristics that we mentioned like breast buds and pubic hair, along with those come interest in the opposite sex. Most of us as parents, I would say almost all of us as parents, we're not quite ready for our child to be interested. Like, Oh gosh, she's getting a little crush on boys or something like that.

So being able to just kind of talk about some of those things. That maybe you have a girl who's never really been interested in boys and all of a sudden she is. [00:19:16] Maybe she's always been really comfortable just like, you know, playing with the neighborhood boys, and all of a sudden she's getting more uncomfortable around them and feeling more aware of her own body or embarrassed, more modest.

That is one thing that as those sex hormones begin to develop and those secondary sex characteristics develop, girls oftentimes will become more modest. And so normally maybe it was no big deal to them if they were taking a bath or a shower and you came in. But now all of a sudden they don't want you in their room when they're changing clothes, they're embarrassed. They want their door closed. That's normal to feel that sense of modesty and that desire for privacy. 

And then as well, just more of the moodiness. It's this push me, pull me thing emotionally where part of them often, I still want to be a little girl. And so, yeah, sometimes I do still want to sit in your lap and I want to put my head in your lap and I want to be a little girl. [00:20:21] But then there's this other part of me that's pulling "I want to be more like an adult" and trying to separate from you, which is part of that normal identity formation through the tweens and through the teens, especially figuring out who they are, what their opinions are. 

But at the same time, in order to do that, they kind of need to be pushing you away. So maybe the things that you like that they've always kind of been like, Oh, yes, this is cool because mom likes it, now, all of a sudden they're like, "Well, I don't like that. The way that you dress, mom, it's so embarrassing. You're not cool. Walk behind me at the mall." 

They maybe wanted to hold your hand as they were walking through the mall when they were in third grade and now all of a sudden they're embarrassed and they want you to walk behind them. They wanted you to come for lunch at school and then all of a sudden they're like, "No, no, that's embarrassing." [00:21:18] 

And so understanding that push me, pull me thing that you experience from them where they're pulling you towards them. But then they're also pushing you away from them. That is normal. It can do a number on you as a parent if you're not ready for it. You feel like, Okay, I'm being rejected and this is what it's going to be like for the rest of our life. It's not. I promise you they're going to come back around again and you're going to develop a new adult relationship with your child that can be really neat and really special. But being aware that they need to do that push me, pull me during these tween and teen times.

Laura Dugger: You've warned us that it's going to be a season filled with ups and downs. But how can we also identify when it is more severe and we need to seek outside help? [00:22:18] 

Dr. Jennifer Degler: That's a great question, Laura. I always encourage folks... They're always asking, Okay, how would I know if I need to take them for counseling? I encourage them to kind of look at their child's life and say, "Is my child struggling, really struggling in two or more areas?" 

For instance, if they're just going through a patch where they're maybe struggling with some friendships, but they're doing really well academically and they're doing great at church and they are at home, they're getting along with their siblings and in general they're obedient and they enjoy they're laughing with family and whatnot, you probably don't need to take them for counseling.

It's when they're beginning like, Okay, I'm getting reports back from teachers that are troubling. And then we're also seeing at home we're having a lot more conflicts at home. Or so kind of think about is this showing up in two or more areas of their life at the same time? [00:23:22] Because that often can indicate they just need some more extra support.

Laura, what I encourage folks to do is when you're talking to a child or a teen about going to see a counselor, they will be probably most receptive to it if you kind of broach it like this to say, "You know, sometimes we all need some extra kind of coaching. Just like, you know, if you're playing soccer and maybe you need extra coaching around a skill or something like that. I've just noticed, you know, you've had a couple of challenges with school or maybe you're at home and I'm just wondering if you might be interested in a one-time consultation with a counselor. You could just go just this one time and just see this is a counselor that they specialize in talking to kids your age or teenagers your age. And you would just go one time and just see if this person has anything to offer you. And if you think it's helpful, we can make another appointment. And if you think, you know, they don't have anything that I'm interested in, then we'll drop it." [00:24:34] 

In that, Laura, making it like a one-time consultation. A lot of times kids will then go ahead and say if they actually are needing some extra support, they'll say, Okay. Because otherwise, they feel like I'm going to go talk to this person for the rest of my life. I don't want to do that. And it's weird. 

So giving them some control in the sense of you're going to go and you are going to check this counselor out. Not that this counselor is going to check you out, but you're going to check out the counselor. That a lot of times will get them in the door. And then many times if your child actually does need some extra support, then they'll be like, Yeah, I think I'd like to go back again.

Laura Dugger: I love even hearing that script. It's so practical and very helpful as a parent. But then I'm also wondering on the other side, when we may be overreacting as a parent and if we're very concerned with, like you said, the moodiness. [00:25:36] I've heard somebody tell me before that normal adolescent behavior for females is equivalent to what is diagnosable in adults.

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Would you say that's true in your experience as well? And let's not just characterize girls. Adolescents in general, there's just a moodiness that can be so frustrating and confusing. So I don't know whether I would call it diagnosable or not. 

But if you just start reading through symptoms of different psychological disorders, I would say as a parent, if you're concerned, then you go and have a one-time consultation with a counselor or talk to their pediatrician and say, Okay, here's what I'm seeing. Is this normal? Is this just a normal rough patch that my child is going through? Because 99% of kids at some point will hit a rough patch and most kids will hit multiple little rough patches, whether that's friendships, whether that's academically, whether that's a teacher that they don't like or they don't get along with or a coach or they'll run into a rough patch with parents or with their siblings. [00:26:55] So understanding a rough patch can be just that.

Your job is to get them from childhood to launching them into adulthood. And there's a point at which when we start out, I'm kind of in control. And then over time, as we go through adolescence and we move you towards launching you into adulthood, more and more, I become more of a consultant to you instead of being somebody that's in control of a lot of things. So helping us make that transition. 

And if at any point you feel like, I think this is so rough on my child that they need extra support, then you go and get a consultation with your pediatrician or with a counselor. And the two of you, based on what you're describing, can help figure out, do we need to bring somebody else in for a period of time to help my child? Whether that's a tutor, whether that's a counselor, whether that's a youth minister, an aunt, an uncle, someone that needs to come alongside for this period of time to help them navigate. [00:28:00] 

Laura Dugger: If we look at big picture, throughout her development, are there certain foods or specific lifestyle choices that can support healthy development?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Oh, absolutely. Right off the bat, do not give your daughter a smartphone until she is like 16. The epidemic that we're seeing of girls especially struggling with depression and anxiety, and so much of that I think is related to their phones, to too much exposure, to so much material through social media.

We did this with our kids and they were not happy about it at all, our daughter in particular. But now that they're adults, they understand why we did this. And this is something that they've said they want to do for their children as well. 

Because daughters especially, their friends, oh my goodness, so much access to their friends and what their friends think of them. [00:29:04] You think about before there were smartphones, when your daughter came home and her house, her house could be a safe haven, but her friends aren't there. And if she's getting along with her friends, then she misses them. And that's great. But if she's not getting along or if they're saying mean things to her, or there's a lot of comparison that's happening with all the images on Instagram or TikTok or whatever it might be, then she brings that home with her, it's there in her bedroom with her as she looks at her phone. 

And all of that is stirring up so much of the anxiety-related hormones. So all of a sudden, all this cortisol is flowing through your child's system that doesn't need to be there. That would be number one. 

Another thing is just thinking about nutrition-wise, if anything is good for the heart, it's good for the brain. Their nervous system, the brain is the largest part of your nervous system. Your nervous system runs through your entire body. [00:30:02] 

And that's the seed of emotion. So what your daughter is eating, is that feeding her brain or is that actually making it harder for her brain to operate in a healthy way so that she can process emotions more easily?

So things like making sure she's getting omega-3 fatty acids. So you might want to, again, check with your pediatrician and make sure this is safe for your particular daughter. But maybe taking some fish oil or some krill oil supplements, making sure, you know, are they eating things like salmon? If you could get them to eat salmon, leafy green vegetables. If all they're eating is junk, that is not helping their nervous system develop in a way that is going to help them emotionally or hormonally. 

And likewise, getting exercise. We know getting out in a green space is really good for your brain. It's really good for your emotions. If the only exercise they're getting is like you go to soccer practice and that's it. Now that's great that they're going to soccer practice. But they need time to play. [00:31:14] 

Play is a child's work. When a child is playing, whether they're playing with stuffed animals or playing make-believe, that is their work. That's when they're processing through emotions, understanding things, working through things. And so giving them plenty of time to play.

And taking the screens away so that they will play. That they actually get bored. Bored is a good thing. Because when we're bored is when we turn on our imagination.

And for kids and for tweens in particular, that's when they're doing this work that they need to do emotionally. So I would say keep them away from screens as much as you can. Don't give them a smartphone. Just do not give them a smartphone. Feed them healthy foods that are going to feed that nervous system. Then as well, lots of play and being outside.  [00:32:13] 

Laura Dugger: Again, that is so practical, which is always helpful because I think that that leads to transformational lives. I'm also wondering, even the spiritual life, when you look back with your daughter, is there anything when we're approaching this holistically, anything that you did to encourage her walk with the Lord?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Oh, yes. Thank you for bringing that up. We are mind, body, and soul. God is a trinity. We are created in God's image. So we are a trinity as well.

So thinking of our children as these image bearers of God, mind, body, and soul, that those parts of them are what are we doing to help encourage healthy development in all of those areas? 

And so spiritually, having conversations. And it's normal when kids, particularly as they get into middle school and to high school, they're going to be meeting more people that you don't have control over who they're meeting. [00:33:15] 

When they're very young, we have a lot of control over who they spend time with. But then as they get older, we don't. And so they're going to be hearing different viewpoints. They're going to be talking to people who see the world differently than they do, who may not have a Christian worldview. 

So to not be presenting those people as those are dangerous people that you don't need to talk to. But already from an early age, talking to your child about, you know, there are people in the world who believe a lot of things that are different than what we believe. And here is why we believe what we believe. 

And then asking your child, what are you thinking about? Do you have any questions that are coming up in you about the Bible, about God, about Jesus, about church? Are there things that you're hearing other kids say? Because that's inquiring after their heart, which is so important in all three of those areas: mind, body, and soul. [00:34:18] 

Not that we're just telling information at them or just talking at them, but we're inquiring after their heart. Like, what are you noticing in your body? Do you have questions about your body? Are there any fears that you have around your body? Are there any fears that are coming up inside of you about God or about religion or about church? Inquiring after their heart trains them to do the same thing. And it shows that they have value.

One of the things we did with our kids is that we really tried to be fun parents at church. I know my husband, he and I both loved to chaperone youth trips, and we made sure we were fun parents. Now, you know, we still had boundaries and made sure if kids needed to go to bed at a certain time, they needed to go to bed and that sort of thing. But we were fun. So our kids wanted us to be on those youth trips with them for church or to be a chaperone at youth camp. [00:35:21] And so we got to be a part of that. That was really special. It was hard. We did not get a lot of sleep. And we were there. We were part of the youth ministry. And, you know, we're there, whether my husband was helping run sound or I would work the snack table.

But just that we were there and we were showing them, we think your spiritual development is important and we're going to be a support role of that. 

Then, of course, praying with them. Our daughter went through a stage kind of around 10th grade where she was taking an AP class in, I think, World History. And she just began to question, like, "I don't know if the Bible is really true." Part of me wanted to freak out, but part of me knew “don't freak out”. That's one of the most important things you can do as a parent is don't freak out. Instead, you need to learn to say, wow, tell me more about that. And listen. 

And then also I begin to pray about, Okay, Lord, help. She's heard from me for years, but I need other people speaking into her life about the importance and the truth of the Bible. And God provided that. [00:36:38] 

But she also knew at home it was a safe place to talk about doubts. We wouldn't freak out as she wrestled through her own faith that it was a safe place to do that. Just like it's a safe place to talk about, hey, all these weird things are happening in my body. What's going on here?

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As we continue to think of our daughters in this phase, what would you say is a healthy role of friendship during this time?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: They're so important because they help normalize things for kids. Because particularly from about 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th grade, it's normal for kids to feel like I am the only person in the world who's going through this. I am weird. Everyone else is normal and I am weird because of all these things that are happening inside them, so emotionally. 

That's what the role of friends do during this time is they see their friends are going through that too, and they can have conversations about that. So friendships are so important, but they can also be really tricky during this time. I think they can be particularly tricky for girls because oftentimes what we see in middle school with girls is a lot of cattiness or relational aggression. [00:38:46] It can be really painful. 

And so it's important as moms that we walk beside our kids, but that we also don't get in and over control that too much. The role of friendship is really important. But your role as a parent, even though your child is spending more and more time with friends, talking more and more about friends, wanting to perhaps emulate friends more and more, your role is still very, very important.

Even when your child acts like your opinion is not important, your opinion is still very important to them. Your approval is still very important to them. That's why as parents, we need to have our own friends during this time so that we have a support group to help support us as we're supporting our daughters as they go through this.

Laura Dugger: Okay, that's a great point. Then as we flip it for parents during this phase, what are some ways that you recommend that we continue to take care of ourselves so that we're the healthiest version and holistically prepared to support our maturing daughters? [00:39:57] 

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Great question, Laura. I'm surprised how many times parents have not sought out other parents of kids who are going through the same thing they're going through. It was so helpful to me.

My sister-in-law, her son had some of the same struggles that my son did. And it was really helpful for us to get together and just... not that we necessarily even planned out "today we're going to talk about our sons". But as we were kind of doing life together or having dinner together, to be able to talk about this is something my son is going through and to be like, yeah, my child is experiencing that too. And to talk about all the feelings that come up in you, the sadness, the disappointment, the anger, the confusion. 

That really helps you as a parent keep things in perspective and take care of yourself. [00:40:55] Many times parents are hiding that their child's going through a struggle or that they're struggling with their child. I think social media can put this pressure on us that everybody else's life looks so perfect and we forget that social media is everyone's highlight reel. And so being willing to be honest and be vulnerable. 

I think it's also helpful to get yourself extra support. If you need to go and talk to a counselor or a mentor to have older women in your life that have been through this. Laura, back when Jake was in kindergarten, he was six and I started going to a Bible study and there were small groups of women that would meet and then we would all come together for a bigger group.

And I was put in a group because I kind of joined late in the year. I was put in the group that had room, which was women who were all 10 to 20 years older than me and none of them had kids in elementary school. [00:41:53] At first I was so ticked off because I was like, "I don't want to be in a group of these old women." I wanted to make some friends with women that were my age. 

Well, God knew what He was doing because that was the year that Jake was having all this testing done, was being diagnosed. We were getting him an individualized education plan. He was going to be in the resource room, tutoring was a lot. And those older women, as I would share about what I would cry about what we were going through, they would come to me privately and say, "Oh, honey, our son went through that" or "our daughter went through that and they just started college and your son's going to be okay." They were such an encouragement to me that this rough patch would not last forever and that my child would be okay. 

I'm so grateful now to have had them in my life because they helped give me perspective that moms my age couldn't give me because they were in it too. [00:42:54] So I think having that deep and wide support network and being willing to be honest as a mom about how hard it can be to be a parent at times.

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good and memorable, deep and wide. Well, Dr. Jennifer, what do you notice parents and daughters struggling with most during this time?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: I think it's because it is such a transition time. You know, we forget that while our daughters are changing, we're changing, too. So if you have your children when they're babies somewhere in your 20s, early 30s, then as they're developing and becoming young women, you're getting older. And things are changing in you hormonally and the way you look changes. [00:43:52] Your relationships change. Your relationship with your parents, your relationship with your spouse, your relationship with career, your relationship with God. 

We put so much energy and effort into raising our kids that it can be easy to forget stuff's going on with me too. That balance of taking care of your children, but not losing yourself while you're raising children. So I think that whole struggle goes easier when mom has a life of her own. 

Dads tend to have a life of their own because most dads do work outside the home. But not all moms work outside the home. And even if they are working outside the home, there's so much pressure on moms. Motherhood is so idealized and idolized in American culture. [00:44:53] It's an incredible amount of pressure on women. And it's easy to lose yourself in it and then to feel like, Okay, my child is struggling, so I've done something wrong when in fact it's normal.

If your child doesn't have some struggles, I'm like, "Really?" Because I just don't hardly know anybody whose child didn't have any kind of struggles at all. That's why you as a mom get a life for yourself.

Make sure you're doing things for you that you have interest. That you're not just making sure your kids get enough exercise, but that you get some exercise. It may mean and often does mean that you say to your children, no, you can't do that third activity that you want to do because that will mean... not that you say this to your child, but you're thinking, "I will be running you so many different places that I won't have time to go to the gym myself. I won't have time to go for a run. I'll never be able to have a girls' night out. I won't have any energy left to have sex with your father because I've expended it all on child rearing or maybe child rearing and my job." [00:46:08] 

The whole process of raising your kids will go smoother if you hang on to you and your life, whether you're married, whether you're single, whether you're divorced, whatever it might be, to keep some energy in reserve and time in reserve for you. So that when your child does have their struggles, you won't personalize it so much and think, "I've done something wrong." You'll be able to have some objectivity to take a step back from it and realize, "Okay, my kid is having some struggles right now. I'm going to keep an eye on it. I'm going to support them. I'm going to get some other people if we need some other people. But I'm going to make sure I keep taking care of me." 

Because that child will launch, that child will go... whether they go to trade school, whether they start a job, whether they go to college, they will eventually launch. [00:47:05] And we want you, mom and dad, to be in as good a shape as possible so your child will launch the best if they know you're going to be okay. Because mom has an interesting life. She's going to be okay.

Laura Dugger: That is so encouraging. It makes me wonder if you've seen any other specific patterns for families who seem to be navigating these years well.

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Definitely, if you're married, to keep investing in your marriage. That is such a great foundation for your child. I see it as if you think about a diving board, and your child is going to hit that diving board and launch into adulthood. So we want that diving board to be as resilient and springy as possible so that when they launch, they launch well. They can launch on out of our basement. We don't want them living in our basement playing video games when they're 35 years old. [00:48:06] So thinking about, okay, what can I do to make this springboard as resilient as possible?

Well, my marriage needs to be strong. I personally need to have an interesting life. They see that I have friends so that they're not worried, gosh, is Mom going to be okay when I go off to college because she doesn't really have any friends? Or Mom and Dad's marriage is not going to be okay if I'm not there to be the buffer between the two of them. 

So the patterns that I see, some of them are that mom and dad continue to make themselves... They have an interesting relationship. They do things without the kids at times where they just invest in their relationship, where they have hobbies, they have their own friends that they do things with.

And that as well, the family times that they have together, that they continue to do those. For instance, like what you did with your kids when they were little? [00:49:07] Maybe they love to go to Build-A-Bear or something like that, that flexes. So now they like coffee. So now we have coffee dates at Starbucks. And now what they're liking to do is this. And that you flex. Again, you're this springy, resilient springboard and they see that you can adapt and that thy learn that from you. 

Because what we want to do is create these resilient adults who can bounce back when hard times happen and that have a strong inner core. So the best thing you can do for your kids is make sure you are okay. That's why we keep working on ourselves, mind, body, and soul.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Are there any other helpful questions we can ask our daughters? Or do you have any other specific information or encouragement that you want to make sure to share that we haven't yet discussed?[00:50:11] 

Dr. Jennifer Degler: Well, I can tell you something fun that I did with my daughter in her period that she loves. This idea did not originate with me. I got this off The Cosby Show. I saw where the mother on The Cosby Show when her daughters would start their periods, she called it Now You're a Woman Day. As they began to learn, you know, a couple of years before their period even started, but they're learning that this is going to start. 

And this is what I told my daughter. I said, "Okay, when you start your period, we're going to have a special day. And it's called Now You're a Woman Day. And if you're in school, I'm going to take you out of school that day. And we're going to have so much fun that day. We're going to do things that women do." 

If you start your period in the summer, you know, I won't be able to take you out of school, but we'll still, and it'll be a surprise to you. Now, it probably won't be on the day you start your period, because I've got to do some planning. But just so you know, that's something you can really look forward to." [00:51:11] 

My daughter loved that, because it was like... because starting your period, it sounds really... It's scary. You know, this idea, all of a sudden this blood's going to come out of me. So letting her know, you know, blood's not going to gush out of you. That's not what it's going to be like. But we're also going to have this fun Now You're a Woman Day. 

So what I did with Josie, she started her period in the summer, so I couldn't take her out of school. But I had this special thing planned. Let's see. We went to a tea room here in town and we had like tea with the little trays of pastries. And then in downtown Lexington, we have horse-drawn carriages. And I took her on a horse-drawn carriage ride. And oh, she just loved it. And I was like, this is what women do, and now you're a woman. It was just a really sweet time. She still talks about that as something that she wants to do with her daughter that is special. [00:52:10] 

So this isn't all so heavy, but is a fun thing as well. And so you're celebrating because this is a normal, healthy thing to have happen to your daughter.

Laura Dugger: I love that so much. It's so fun and such a creative way to celebrate that rite of passage. So thank you for that idea.

Dr. Jennifer, you just have so much more to offer. So where can we go to learn more from you after today's conversation?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: You can go to JenniferDegler.com. Typical spelling of Jennifer, and then D-E-G-L-E-R, JenniferDegler.com. That's also the home of CWIVES.com. Both of those will take you to the same website. 

If there are wives that want to maybe sign up for the Dare of the Month or learn more about how to make their sex life sizzle, there are resources there to help people have emotional health, spiritual health, relationship health. [00:53:10] We look to just help people be holistically mind, body, and soul whole people as believers, really reflecting the full image of who Jesus Christ is.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. I will make sure we get links to all of those places in the show notes for today's episode. You may remember that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

Dr. Jennifer Degler: So I will make this savvy sauce have to do with raising a girl. My savvy sauce is for you as a mom raising a girl to really work on loving yourself and strengthening yourself and to keep pouring into yourself. 

More is caught than taught. And what your daughter sees you do, that she sees that you go and buy yourself some fun clothes every now and again. That she sees that you move your body. [00:54:21] That she sees and hears you talk positively about yourself. That she sees you do interesting things for yourself. That she sees you be assertive and speak what you need and ask for what you need. That she hears you talk about your faith journey.

That is ultimately what is going to really help equip your girl to navigate through these tween and teen rough waters at times. So the savvy sauce is you keep working on you and then your girl will so benefit from that.

Laura Dugger: Well, Dr. Degler, you must do that well because you are so vibrant and knowledgeable, kind, and approachable and just truly such a delight to spend time with. So thank you for encouraging us how to navigate these years with grace and wisdom. And thank you for being my returning guest.

Dr. Jennifer Degler: You're so welcome. This was really fun. [00:55:22] 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:56:22] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:57:21] 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:58:25] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

 

 

Special Patreon Re-Release: Personal Stories of God’s Provision with Hope Ware

Special Patreon Re-Release: Personal Stories of God's Provision with Hope Ware

 

“Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Shen and called its name Ebenezer, for he said, “Till now the Lord has helped us.” -1 Samuel 7:12 

 

Hope Ware is a writer and public speaker. She blogs at underthemedian.com, dispensing tips and strategies for cutting expenses, raising children on a shoestring budget, and (most importantly) living with a spirit of joy and abundance. Hope believes that telling our stories of God's provision is one of the most powerful ways to pass faith and financial principles to the next generation.

 

Hope worked in Christian radio, writing and producing programs and commercials. As a private freelancer, she has provided vocal talent for a wide variety of projects, including voiceovers for prestigious companies like Pioneer Hybrid International and the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. She has written guest posts for Money Saving Mom (Crystal Paine), and Change Your Finances.  

 

She is a frequent and popular speaker at the APACHE Homeschooling convention, held yearly in Peoria,  enjoys teaching in the high school department at Peoria Cooperative Academy, and is a second soprano and featured soloist for the highly acclaimed Heritage Ensemble. 

 

She has a degree in radio and television broadcasting. 

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.  

 

Hope Ware’s Blog

 

Raising Kids for True Greatness by Tim Kimmel

 

Connect with Hope on Instagram, Facebook, and You Tube @underthemedian  

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

216 Enriching Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.

 

216. Enriching Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen

 

**Transcription Below**

 

1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV) “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything.

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What are a few benefits of orgasm?
2. What is the treatment plan for clients who have never experienced an orgasm?
3. What is Perimenopause?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities.  Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life. 

 

Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society’s new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being.    

 

In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website

North American Menopause Society

Women's Sexual Health Information

ISSWSH Website

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

This week we are continuing part two of an interview with a sexual medicine expert, Dr. Kris Christiansen. Don't miss last week's conversation about hormones and the real story behind hormone therapy. And now today, we're going to discuss common dysfunctions that motivate people to seek treatment. She's going to teach us what to expect and how to work with our bodies to make the most of perimenopause and menopause. [00:01:20] 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Christiansen. 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, thank you, Laura. It's great to be back. We had so much fun last week and looking forward to our conversation this week. 

Laura Dugger: We really did have a great time. I hope anyone listening today makes sure that they go back and listen to last week's episode first because you laid so much groundwork and we covered a lot of topics. 

But let's just continue the conversation today. You've worked with men who have low testosterone and women who have low sexual desire. So what have you learned about these specific topics over the years? 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, as we mentioned last week, men with low testosterone often have several symptoms like fatigue, low sex drive, trouble with erections and orgasm, irritability, and depressed mood. [00:02:20] It can affect cognition, too. So sometimes they're just not thinking quite as clearly. 

They may even have hot flashes, night sweats, and sleep problems just like women in menopause. You may have heard the term andropause, pausing with those androgens, and it's very similar to what women experience. 

Along with feeling crummy, many studies indicate that men with low testosterone have an increased risk of heart disease, strokes, diabetes, and osteoporosis. And treating men who have low testosterone often makes them feel better, but it doesn't work for everyone. So it's not the fountain of youth like people hope for, and it's definitely not without risks. 

There are side effects such as oily skin, acne, hair loss on the top of their head, which they don't like, and hair gain elsewhere. It can also cause increased breast size or man boobs because indirectly it increases their estrogen levels. [00:03:24] 

Testosterone treatment can decrease testicle size, decrease sperm count, and increases the risk of infertility. So young men who want to have children should not use testosterone. There are other treatments, just not testosterone itself because of the risk of infertility. There's also a risk of potentially blood clots and cardiovascular events in older men. 

Testosterone doesn't cause prostate cancer, just like estrogen doesn't cause breast cancer. But it often increases the PSA, that's the prostate cancer blood screening test. Unfortunately, prostate cancer is relatively common, like 1 in 8 men. So we have to monitor men more closely for prostate cancer when they take it. Not because the testosterone causes it, but we just need to watch it because potentially the cancer could grow faster if it's there and if they're using testosterone. [00:04:25] 

Besides, feeling crabby and fatigued and having sexual problems may not be due to low testosterone. These are fairly common issues and they can certainly be attributed to other problems, like pressures of work, work stress, pressures of life, and relationship issues. So just because they may be having some of these general symptoms doesn't automatically mean that they're a candidate for testosterone treatment. 

As for women, I see women all the time in my clinic who come in with low desire. I kind of have to play detective to see what could be the underlying problem to their low libido. We talk about a biopsychosocial model when it comes to sexual function and dysfunction. So we have to ask about all these different aspects of the biopsychosocial model. 

For example, the bio aspect refers to the biological and physical components, like hormones, pain, medications, side effects, and chronic medical problems. [00:05:28] Pain is often a common factor in low desire. And it's not uncommon for my patients to have always had pain with sexual activity, intercourse, or penetration, so she thinks this is normal for her. But pain is not normal. It's never normal. And who would want to have sex if it hurts? 

So we have to figure out what's causing the pain and fix that before we can help the libido. And sometimes that's all we have to do. 

Fatigue is also a very common factor. So if you're working and you're working 40 hours a week, you come home, you have to make dinner, you clean up and put the kids to bed, then you just don't have any energy left over for sex. 

And for stay-at-home moms who have the most important job in the world, they don't get lunch breaks, days off, or break from the daily routine, so it's ongoing. Sometimes they just need a little help or a little break and reserve a little time and energy for sex because it's often not there. [00:06:32] 

Women usually don't have sex at the forefront of their brains, our brains. Our brains are not bathed in testosterone like men's are. So we're not thinking about sex all the time like guys often are. Not always because sometimes women have higher libido than their husbands. 

But we divide desire into two different kinds. There's spontaneous desire and responsive desire. Spontaneous desire is when we're thinking about sex, want to engage in intimate time with our partner and initiate the encounter. 

However, more often, women are not the initiators. A common scenario is for desire to happen after sexual intimacy has begun. And we refer to this as responsive desire. So once you're engaged in that intimate time and you can relax and it feels good and say, "Oh, I wish we would do this more often." But then that more often doesn't happen. [00:07:34] 

So when we're young and the relationship is new and exciting and sex is exciting, we look forward to it and we initiate it. As the relationship matures, sex is still a wonderful way to connect with our spouse. But we're not thinking about it all the time like we did when things were new and fresh. So as that relationship matures and as we mature, that's when responsive desire comes into play. And it is a completely normal response. 

For example, when dinner's done, dishes are put away, kids are in bed, and your husband starts to rub your back, and then you think, "Okay, this is nice." And the back rub turns to more intimate activity. And that's when your desire kicks in. And that is a totally normal response. 

So even if you don't have desire at the get-go, if it comes along, then it's okay. So it's also important to know that all back rubs don't have to lead to sex. Some women, they're afraid to hug or they're afraid to be touched because they think that touch is going to lead to sex. So we need to know that non-sexual touch is very nice. And it's okay to stop there. Just because you get a back rub doesn't mean that it has to proceed to that next step. [00:08:52] You can just enjoy that touch for what it is. 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful because if you say that many women do experience low sexual desire, you're not saying that if you don't have spontaneous desire that would be low sexual desire. That would more so be diagnosed if you are even into the act of sexual intimacy and into those arousing touches, but you're still not experiencing desire. Is that right? 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: That's right. There's a diagnosis called hypoactive sexual desire disorder. It's common in women for sure, and it also happens in men too. But hypoactive sexual desire is low desire that causes personal distress, and that distress can be exhibited as frustration, grief, loss, sadness, sorrow, and has a negative impact on the relationship. [00:09:56] 

So if we have low desire but it's not causing any problems, it's not an issue. Not everything has to be treated. It's when the low desire is actually causing problems within that person, the personal distress or within the relationship, that's something that we need to address. 

So if we don't have the spontaneous desire where it's at the forefront of our brain, yet the responsive desire is happening and both parties know that and it's okay, it's not an issue. But if it's causing an issue, then we can look into it, see what's contributing to it, and try to help. 

Laura Dugger: And if this is the most common sexual dysfunction in women, then how can women identify if they are experiencing this? 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, you may have hypoactive sexual desire disorder if you just don't think about sex, don't desire it, and don't enjoy it once engaged in sexual activity. [00:11:02] There was a big study published years ago, 2009. They looked at 31,000 women. So big study. They found that 44% of women have some sort of sexual problem in their lives. 44%, it's almost half of us. But we only call it a disorder or a problem if it causes distress. So if we take distress into account, then the prevalence is more like 12%. 

When it comes to low desire, depending on the study that you read, anywhere from 30% to 50% of women will experience low desire at some point in their life. But it's only an issue if it's causing distress, and that happens in about 10%. 

Sexual desire decreases as we get older. Not for everybody. Like I said, I got women in their 80s coming in. And we know that sexual problems are most common in the middle years, like 45 to 64. So if you have low desire, it's causing problems, and you want help, know that there is help out there for you. [00:12:12] 

There are subtypes of HSDD. We talk about situational versus generalized. With situational HSDD, this implies that certain factors are affecting the low libido, such as relationship issues, stress or fatigue, medications, pregnancy, recent childbirth, menopausal symptoms, or other sexual issues like pain, decreased arousal or orgasm problems. 

Sometimes it's a matter of our partner's sexual problems, which then spill over and affect us. So if we can improve these contributing factors, then libido often improves. Sexual pain, decreased lubrication, and arousal problems often go along with the low libido. So if a woman simply just does not experience pleasure with sexual intimacy, meaning she's not experiencing arousal or those pleasurable feelings, she's probably not going to participate in sexual intimacy in the future. [00:13:22] 

We know that many women engage in sexual activity just to feel close to their husband. But if she's not getting any pleasure from it, why does she want to do it? We also know that foreplay is an absolute must. It takes time to warm up, time to get aroused, and it takes longer as we get older. 

I heard of one podcaster referred to sex without pleasure like mushy steamed broccoli. So if sex is like mushy steamed broccoli and you really don't like mushy steamed broccoli, then you're probably going to avoid it. So we've got to fix the mushy steamed broccoli. 

Other things that can affect libido, chronic medical conditions such as diabetes, metabolic syndrome, thyroid problems, urinary incontinence, MS, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's, and cancer, especially breast cancer and other gynecologic cancers. [00:14:24] 

So treating those underlying medical conditions can be helpful, and the better that we can manage them, like with our blood pressure and cholesterol and diabetes, the better our bodies work, both men and women. 

Medications can affect sexual function like blood pressure meds. We talked about hormonal contraceptives last week. Spironolactone. Spironolactone is a water pill, but sometimes women take it to treat acne or to treat facial hair, especially in women who have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome.

The reason spironolactone works for those issues is because it's an antiandrogen. Androgens have to do with testosterone. So if this spironolactone is treating our acne and treating the facial hair, which is great, but it's antiandrogenic, meaning decreasing our testosterone levels, it's going to affect sexual function. [00:15:25] 

Other medications, antidepressants, other mental health medications, and most definitely breast cancer treatments. 

Other factors. Depression and anxiety have a huge impact on sexual function and libido. And we know that the medications that we take to treat the depression and anxiety, they cause sexual side effects.

However, the anxiety and depression often have bigger effects than the medications themselves. We also know that having depression increases the risk of sexual dysfunction by 50% to 70%. So if you have depression, you have a 50% to 70% increased risk of sexual problems.

The reverse is true. Having sexual dysfunction, whether that be low libido, orgasm issues, or guys with erectile problems, having sexual dysfunction increases the risk of depression by 130% to 210%. [00:16:26] And stress and fatigue are really common problems.

So, if you go on vacation, you get adequate rest, and you escape the stressors of life, and you find that your libido is much improved, well, then I guess you need a permanent vacation. So send me an email, I'll give you a doctor's note, and let's make sex better. 

That's situational HSDD, low libido that's due to specific situations. 

There's also generalized HSDD. This is where there are no other contributing factors like pain or medications or whatever, but libido is still low. This means it also occurs in all settings, so whether you're home or whether you're on vacation, and with all partners, but hopefully you just have the one lifetime partner.

HSDD that is not caused by contributing factors is thought to be attributed to an imbalance of brain chemicals, like depression. [00:17:26] Sexual desire is regulated by key regions in the brain through the action of various neurotransmitters. So there's a balance of excitation and inhibition, and the balance of the excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters impacts sexual function.

Sexual excitation is mediated by the chemicals dopamine, melanocortin, oxytocin, vasopressin, norepinephrine. So these are all good positive sex steroids or sex hormones that help with sexual function. The inhibitory ones are opioids, so pain meds, so people who are on chronic pain meds has a negative impact.

Serotonin, which comes in many antidepressants. Serotonin can have a negative impact. Endocannabinoids, so cannabinoids, meaning THC, negative impact. And prolactin, these are all associated with sexual inhibition. [00:18:27] 

So prolactin is a big factor in breastfeeding women, because when you're breastfeeding, that prolactin level increases because it causes milk letdown. But prolactin decreases dopamine and libido. So, again, it's a natural function, and I think it's God's way of making sure that women don't get pregnant right away. 

You know, we don't understand all the biological causes of HSDD, but we think that the generalized acquired HSDD involves either this predisposition towards inhibitory processes, which shuts everything down and results in decreased excitation, or there are some women with increased inhibition where those other neurochemicals have too much of an inhibitory effect, or it could be a mixture of both. 

The other breakdown of the HSDD is acquired versus lifelong. So acquired means previously libido was normal, it was good, it was not a problem, and then something changed. [00:19:30] Lifelong HSDD is when libido has always been low, it's never been high, and there can be many different factors contributing to this. 

We do have several treatments available. And the treatment really depends on what type of HSDD the patient has. So if it's situational HSDD, meaning attributed to a specific underlying factor or factors, then we've got to try to fix those, whether it's addressing relationship issues, trust, pain, medications, or other sexual problems. 

Sex therapy is very helpful, regardless of the type of HSDD. Sex therapy is talk therapy, trying to peel back the layers of the onion and figuring out what's contributing to it and dealing with some of these problems. 

When it comes to generalized acquired HSDD, we have a number of ways that we can treat it. [00:20:33] That's really good news. Part of it is just education, talking about normal sexual functioning and understanding the difference between spontaneous and responsive desire. So if you don't have spontaneous, it doesn't mean that you're broken or something's not working. As long as that responsive desire happens, that's totally normal. 

The role of motivation in sexual desire, making sure that he or she is well-rested and the experience is good and pleasurable and other things that contribute to the positive aspect. 

We have to talk about the importance of adequate stimulation. This is where foreplay is really important. Stimulating the clitoris, starting with non-sexual touch or whatever is important and arousing for the person, and it's different for everybody. And what's arousing one day may not be arousing the next, so it's really important to keep those lines of communication open. [00:21:34] 

We also need to address any modifiable factors, such as depression or anxiety or self-esteem or body image problems. So if a woman feels really self-conscious and just can't be comfortable, is uncomfortable being without clothes in front of her partner, that can be a big impact. Addressing stress or distractions.

You want to make sure that you have that privacy and can be comfortable in this situation. A history of abuse can have a lifelong impact. Substance abuse, self-imposed pressure for sex. So if we're imposing this pressure that we have to have sex or if our partner is imposing that pressure on us, that's not going to lead to a very positive experience.

Lifestyle factors, relationship factors, and even beliefs about sexuality. God talks about sex and intimacy throughout the Bible. It's a gift that He created for us, and He wants us to be able to enjoy that with our spouse. And that's the way it's meant to be. [00:22:43] 

But if we kind of forget that factor and still think of it as being dirty or off-limits and, you know, you shouldn't engage in that and you shouldn't enjoy it, that's going to have a definite impact on sexual function. Other factors, making sure we've got adequate lubrication and addressing arousal problems if they happen. 

Sex therapy, like I mentioned above, is really effective. Sounds weird, people are reluctant, but talking through these issues with a trained therapist is really helpful. 

The other good news is that we have two medications approved by the FDA for the treatment of HSDD in premenopausal women. These have been approved just in the last few years, and they work on the brain chemistry.

We talked about the excitatory versus the inhibitory aspects of these neurotransmitters, and that's exactly what these medications are addressing. [00:23:43] They're approved for use in premenopausal women, but they've also been studied in postmenopausal women, and they are safe and effective. It's just that they don't carry the indication because it would take another billion dollars for all the studies to get them approved by the FDA for postmenopausal women.

I still use them off-label in my postmenopausal women. I probably use them more often in my older patients than my younger ones because they work. They work by either activating those stimulatory pathways or reducing the inhibitory pathways that regulate desire.

And when they're effective, which honestly they work in about 45% of women, not 100%, women say that the medication gives them that want-to-want back. And that's what so many of them are missing. It's like somebody turned off a switch in their brain, and as much as they want to, and they really want to be close to their husband, they just can't bring themselves to do it. [00:24:44] This is when the medication can be helpful.

Medication doesn't help relationship problems. It doesn't help other medication side effects and such, but it just restores the brain chemistry. 

One of the medications, the first one approved, is a pill. It's called Addyi, A-D-D-Y-I. Flibanserin is the generic name. It's a pill that has to be taken every day, taken at night, and it takes about six to eight weeks before we see the full effect. Kind of like an antidepressant. It takes time to restore the brain chemistry. 

The other medication is called Vyleesi, with a V as in victory. The generic name is bremelanotide. This is an injection. It comes in a pen, a single-use pen, much like an insulin pen, so you never see the needle, and the needle's teeny tiny, and it really doesn't hurt. So you give yourself this injection in your abdomen about 45 minutes prior to sexual activity, and it's going to be effective for 10 to 12 hours, so it's not like you have 45 minutes. Clock is ticking. It does give you some time. [00:25:49] 

For our late perimenopausal, postmenopausal patients, testosterone can be helpful. So actually giving women testosterone. It is off-label. Unfortunately, we don't have an FDA-approved treatment for testosterone in women, but again, we use it quite often, and it can be an effective treatment.

There's no approved product, testosterone product, for women, so we have to use male products in female doses. Again, we have about 10% of the amount of testosterone that men do, so we use 10% of the amount of the testosterone gel or whatever. These improvements are gradual, and sometimes it takes a few months before they take full effect. 

So please know that HSDD is treatable. There are treatments, there are options, and bottom line, there is hope.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. [00:26:49] 

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. [00:27:56] 

Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated from Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

Laura Dugger: Well, I love learning more about the intricate and brilliant way God designed our physical bodies. So with that in mind, what are a few benefits of orgasm?

Dr. Kris Christiansen: There actually are several benefits to orgasm. One of them is that it can boost mood. So with orgasms, we get the release of neurochemicals or hormones that make us feel better.

Those hormones can be oxytocin, dopamine, and endorphins. [00:28:56] So oxytocin is also known as the love hormone and the bonding hormone. It's released 500 times the normal amount with orgasm and plays a role in sexual arousal and ejaculation for men. It also increases when you're hugging someone or breastfeeding your baby. 

It has other non-sexual roles. It causes uterine contractions in labor and childbirth. And like I said, it's involved with breastfeeding and allows the milk to be released. 

It also impacts human behaviors and social interactions like recognition and trust and that romantic attachment. So that's why that snuggle time as part of sexual intimacy is just so valuable. It connects us. 

Dopamine is our feel-good hormone. It allows you to feel pleasure and satisfaction and motivation. [00:29:58] And it plays a role as the reward center. So when you do something pleasurable, your brain releases a large amount of dopamine. So you feel good and seek more of that feeling, whether it's sex or junk food. Dopamine is also that hormone that gets released as part of that runner's high that just makes you feel good and makes the pain go away. 

Other benefits. Orgasm can strengthen relationships, improve sleep, increase body confidence. And it helps to reduce stress by releasing that dopamine and strengthening our pelvic muscles. It helps relieve pain with those endorphins.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredible to kind of hear it summarized in all of the science behind it. But then it also makes me consider people who have never experienced this. So what is the treatment plan for your clients who have never experienced an orgasm? [00:31:00] 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: The first intervention is usually education because orgasm often comes from the clitoris. There are a lot of women who just really don't know what it is and where it is. But God gave us a clitoris, and it only has one function, which is sexual pleasure.

So we think of it as being just that little pea-shaped structure that you can see and touch. But it's actually much larger and much more involved than just the little pea-sized glands clitoris that we think of. 

It's a deep structure. It's made up of mostly erectile tissues and nerves, just like the penis. And it reaches deeper into the pelvis. It encircles the vagina, and it goes all the way around. It has kind of like legs that extend on either side. 

Boys and girls start with the same genital structure as the developing embryo, and then we differentiate into the different male and female genitalia. [00:32:07] So our clitoris really started looking like a penis, or vice versa. And it's a glans clitoris, or what we think of as the whole clitoris, but it's just that small glans, which is the same structure as the glans penis, the head of the penis. So our clitoris is really like the head of a penis. 

The female equivalent of the penile shaft is the cruse, or the legs, and the vestibular glands that extend down and around the vagina, just inside the labia majora. So it's much larger than what we anticipate. And stimulating just the labia majora can be quite pleasurable, because it's part of the clitoris. 

There was an article published in the New York Times just last October, and it was entitled, Half the World Has a Clitoris. Why Don't Doctors Study It? We really don't know that much about the clitoris, because nobody's really looked into it. [00:33:07] So this article talks about how little we know about it. 

Shortly after that article came out, there was a study published in one of the medical journals that noted that the clitoris actually has more than 10,000 nerve fibers. Actually, 10,281 to be exact. 

Previously, they were basing the knowledge, we thought it was only 8,000, based on a study that looked at bovine or cow clitorises. Anyway, most women, up to 70% or 75%, are not able to reach orgasm with just vaginal penetration. 

Most women need direct stimulation to the clitoris in order to be able to experience orgasm. And a lot of women don't know that. A lot of men don't know that. So we think that just penile-vaginal intercourse should lead to orgasm, and it doesn't. [00:34:07] 

It also doesn't happen spontaneously. That only happens in the movies. Unfortunately, movies and media just do us all a big disservice. So there's a reason that God tells us to guard our hearts and our eyes. But intimacy is all about intimate connection with giving and receiving pleasure.

So if we keep that in mind, that it's giving and receiving pleasure and connection, and not about the goal of reaching orgasm. Because if that's the reason you engage in sexual intimacy is just to reach orgasm, it's not going to happen. Your brain's not going to let you go there. You have to be able to relax and let go, feel vulnerable, and be in the moment.

There are a lot of issues that can contribute to difficulty with orgasm. One of the biggest ones is anxiety. So if we're anxious about not being able to reach orgasm or if we're placing pressure on ourselves, that's one of the biggest deterrents. [00:35:11]

Other factors are medications. Antidepressants, especially those SSRIs, like Prozac and Zoloft, and Paxil, can cause sexual problems, especially orgasm issues. In men, if they have premature ejaculation, we often prescribe those medications for that reason because that helps delay ejaculation at least a few minutes.

Other meds which we may not know about is the birth control pills. I think we talked about that previously and the negative impact that birth control pills can have in some women.

Other issues: hormonal issues, especially when our testosterone levels decrease, that can be an issue. 

Medical problems and physical trauma like injury or surgery or radiation to the pelvic area. Emotional trauma and relationship issues. [00:36:10] So, again, if we don't feel safe and can make ourselves feel vulnerable, orgasm probably is not going to happen. 

Hypertonic or really tight pelvic floor muscles also play a role. 

Age is a factor. So there are normal age-related changes, and women often have decreased lubrication and need increased time for stimulation and lots and lots of foreplay.

Nerves just become less sensitive, and then when you also are dealing with medications and circulation issues and the decreasing hormone levels, unfortunately, that plays a role. However, it doesn't mean sex isn't pleasurable. 

In men with orgasm, they experience, you may have heard, andropause, because their testosterone levels decrease with age too. And so just like women, men often need more time and directed stimulation in order to maintain the erection and be able to reach orgasm as they get older. [00:37:15] So if things change, it doesn't mean that we have to give up on sex. It just may look a little differently as we age.

It's also important to use a really good lubricant. Using a good lubricant can actually increase your ability to reach orgasm by 70% or 80%. As far as treatment options, besides education and learning about our bodies, sex therapy is really helpful.

It combines a cognitive behavioral therapy and often sensitive focus exercises. And sometimes it's just plain communication between spouses and expectations. Experimenting with non-coital, non-vaginal intercourse type of activities, such as massage or oil or manual stimulation, and using a vibrator.

So a vibrator provides additional stimulation and helps overcome the problem of decreased sensation because those nerves aren't as sensitive as we get older, especially with medications and problems like diabetes, which affects the nerves. [00:38:24] So using a vibrator with partnered play can be really fun. 

Again, keeping in mind this is giving and receiving pleasure, and our spouse often gets a lot of pleasure about giving us pleasure. So changing things up, changing your routine, say the location or time of day, changing positions. 

So if we usually wait until bedtime to engage in sexual intimacy, we're tired and our bodies don't work as well when we're tired. So trying to carve out some time earlier in the day or reserving some energy for that fun time can make a big difference.

There are no FDA-approved medications for orgasmic disorder, but we often use off-label treatments, which is a lot of what I do in my specialty, to help different things like with arousal and orgasm. [00:39:26] One of the things we may try is Viagra or Cialis in women. So yes, this is off-label, and insurance usually doesn't cover it for men, and it most definitely does not cover it for women, but there are ways to get it really, really cheaply.

Anyway, so Viagra and Cialis, they don't help with desire. For men, it doesn't really help with desire either, except that it gives them the confidence that they may get a better erection. So the way these medications work, they increase blood flow to the erectile tissues, which is our clitoris.

So by increasing blood flow, it may work a little bit better and help with arousal and orgasm. There actually have been a few small studies that show that it is helpful, especially in women with diabetes or taking antidepressants. 

Other treatments may include an arousal cream, which is compounded. [00:40:25] It does require a prescription, and you have to get it from a special pharmacy. But this arousal cream often has something like Viagra and testosterone and a few other things in it to help increase blood flow. 

There are over-the-counter options. One of them is called Zestra, Z-E-S-T-R-A. It's a mixture of some botanical or herbal supplements that are meant to increase blood flow. Another one is Arouse Serum by Rosebud Woman, which can be helpful. 

Like I said, a vibrator or there's such a thing as a clitoral stimulator that acts directly on the clitoris that can be helpful. You know how men have a vacuum erection device to help with erections? Well, there's a similar device for women. It's called Eros, E-R-O-S. It acts like a little mini vacuum device that goes over the glans clitoris and it pulls blood into the clitoris to help with the arousal and orgasm. [00:41:30] It basically works like the erection device for a penis. 

Sometimes orgasm just comes down to learning your own body and discovering what feels good. So like we mentioned, you've got to be completely relaxed, uninhibited, and be able to let yourself go.

The more you try to reach orgasm just for the sake of reaching orgasm, the less likely it's going to happen and your brain really just won't let you go there. So I want to try to not engage in goal-oriented sex. The goal is to reach orgasm and once you reach orgasm, you're done. You don't want to do that because we have to be able to relax and enjoy the journey. So remember sexual intimacy is about intimate connection and giving and receiving pleasure.

Laura Dugger: Thank you. That was a very holistic response, which I appreciate looking at various angles to help with this. [00:42:32] Even I think I've shared on the podcast before, one woman shared with me that when she and her husband are engaging in sexual intimacy, if she is having difficulty, like you said, just getting there, relaxing enough, spiritually, she will just pray silently and ask God to help her. She said the results... I can't remember the exact quote, but are miraculous or supernatural. So I love the holistic approach. 

And then also it just made me think when you were talking about different physicalities that I would recommend if anyone's listening and they are struggling with this right now, there are so many reasons to seek out a professional like Dr. Christiansen, who we're talking to today. Because even things that we wouldn't think of like back injuries, where something has happened and... I don't know all the science behind it. You wouldn't know this better than me, but where the brain can't interpret what is going on in the genitals. And I'm not sure if it's spinal cord severing, but sometimes people with back injuries have said they have more difficulty experiencing orgasm. [00:43:43] So there's just so many things to unpack. And that's why you're such a brilliant resource.

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, and that's so true. And it really is the spinal cord because those same nerves that come from your clitoris track all the way up your spinal cord to your brain. Even just, you know, say a herniated disc or a small tear in the disc or some injuries can impact sexual function. And if you tell that to a neurosurgeon or an orthopedist, they're going to say, No, that doesn't impact it. But it really does.

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about the Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out. [00:44:42] 

Well, kind of on a different topic, we have over 50 Savvy Sauce episodes that are related to sex, but we have not yet covered perimenopause and menopause in depth. So let's just begin with a definition. First, what is perimenopause?

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Perimenopause is the transition phase from our reproductive life where we're experiencing regular periods to the point where those periods stop. And it may begin 8 to 10 years prior to menopause. In some women, it can last up to 14 years.

So it often starts in the early to mid-40s. Menstrual cycles become irregular and unpredictable. The only predictable part is to expect it to be unpredictable. [00:45:43] 

Our periods can become heavier, lighter, closer together, or farther apart. You know, so we just really don't know what to expect. They can be heavy and frequent and lead to excessive blood loss, and sometimes women become anemic. So if that's the case, if, you know, heavy frequent periods, please see your provider because there are lots of things we can do for this. 

Other symptoms can also include the psychological and other physical symptoms. Psychological symptoms may include anger, irritability, mood swings, depression, anxiety, difficulty concentrating, brain fog, mild memory problems, and some trouble with word finding.

So, you know, we may think we're going crazy or whatever, but it's just really... It's perimenopause and our fluctuating estrogen levels that just don't let our brain work as well as it used to. [00:46:44] 

Other physical symptoms may include hot flashes, night sweats, decreased libido, weight gain, urinary problems such as urgency, frequency, and incontinence, and vaginal dryness and painful intercourse can often happen. We often think of this as menopause, but these symptoms may start happening as early as our early to mid-40s.

The reason behind all of this, it's due to fluctuating and decreasing levels of estrogen. So some days our ovaries may be working great, giving us plenty of estrogen, we feel pretty good. The next day they're taking a break and we're not feeling like ourselves. 

So even in perimenopause, estrogen, systemic estrogen can be helpful. So as long as we don't have any contraindications like breast cancer or history of blood clots, a little bit of estrogen can make us feel normal again. [00:47:43] 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Is that something you would recommend? Do you begin going to your OBGYN if you're experiencing difficulty sleeping and brain fog and these different things that you've talked about to check if you are anemic or if you're in perimenopause or need some estrogen? What would be the next step?

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yes, absolutely. Starting either with your primary doctor or your OBGYN, if you're still seeing one, that would be your next step. But I would recommend going on the menopause.org website. That's a national organization for menopause. 

There's a list of providers on there who have a special interest or even certified in menopause treatments. So menopause.org, click on Find a Provider, and you put in your location to find someone in your area who would be a little probably more well-versed in menopause and perimenopause treatments. [00:48:45] 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Now, what all can you teach us about menopause?

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Menopause is defined as 12 months after the last period. So it's just like 12 months one day... it's a mark in time. It's a normal, natural event in a woman's life, and it can occur naturally or due to surgery, like removal of the ovaries.

Sometimes we just don't know when menopause occurs because a woman may not be getting her period in her 40s because of birth control pills and IUD or a gynecologic procedure such as an endometrial ablation or hysterectomy. So if she's not getting her period in her 40s and 50s, we don't know exactly when it happens. We do know the average age is 51, and it usually occurs somewhere between the ages of 45 and 55. [00:49:45] And it's all due to the reduced functioning of ovaries and decreased levels of estrogen and progesterone. So it marks the permanent end of fertility. 

Like with perimenopause, a lot of women experience symptoms and physical changes, and they may include hot flashes, night sweats, sleep problems, mood changes, weight gain, slowed metabolism, hair becomes thinner, skin may become a little drier, and loss of skin elasticity where wrinkles are a little more prevalent, loss of breastfulness, and even some mild memory problems.

Not to mention, though, hot flashes and night sweats can be really disruptive, especially if the night sweats don't allow us to get a good night's sleep. They tend to be worse in perimenopause and early menopause. They affect like 50 to 80 percent of women and more common in Black and Latino women. [00:50:46] 

Cigarette smoking increases frequency and severity. So one more reason to stop smoking. Hot flashes resolve in 85% of women within about five years. But 10% to 15% of women may have persistent flashes throughout their lifetime. They usually last about seven years, and up to 30% of women can have them for 10 or more years. So they can last a while, but in most people, they do get better and go away.

A very common problem is also what we call the genitourinary syndrome of menopause. We call it GSM. It's very common. It affects up to 85% of women in menopause. And unfortunately, that issue gets worse with time. 

So GSM is a collection of symptoms caused by the lack of estrogen and affects the vulva, the vagina, and the urinary system. [00:51:46] We used to call it vaginal atrophy, but because we know it also affects the urinary system, they broadened the term. 

So the vulvovaginal symptoms may include vaginal dryness, loss of elasticity, painful intercourse, vaginal atrophy, tight nips, shortening of the vagina, vaginal itching, and thinning of the vaginal tissues, which can make it prone to tearing.

It affects sexual function with decreased arousal, decreased sensation, trouble with orgasms, and tearing of the tissues, which causes pain and bleeding. So those urinary symptoms may be urinary urgency, frequency, painful urination, urinary incontinence or leaking, and even UTIs.

Laura, I can't tell you the number of women I see with these problems. And most of them say, no one ever told me this was going to happen to me. [00:52:44] And these problems get worse with time, unfortunately. Like those hot flashes, they get better and go away. But our GSM symptoms, they don't get better, they get worse. The good news, though, is that we have great treatment options for GSM, so it doesn't have to happen.

Vaginal estrogen is highly effective and it's extremely safe. The vaginal estrogen acts locally just on the vulva and the vagina and the bladder, so it doesn't get absorbed and affect the whole body. More importantly, we have studies to show that it does not cause breast cancer, heart attacks, strokes, or blood clots.

If you get a prescription and you read the package insert, unfortunately it does say it has these risks, but the drug companies have taken these risks associated with systemic estrogen, like pills and patches that increase our blood levels, and they apply that same risk to the vaginal treatments as a class effect, but this is totally not the case. [00:53:53] Unfortunately, it scares women away from a very safe, very effective treatment. And you can use it until you die. There's no reason that you have to stop it at any point. 

And it's not necessarily just about sex. It's about vaginal health because urinary urgency and frequency incontinence is really bothersome. There are several over-the-counter vaginal moisturizers that can be effective, especially if you start using it when your symptoms are mild. 

You've got to use these vaginal moisturizers regularly and consistently, like every few days in order for them to work, and it may take a month or two before you see the full effect. So they don't work if you're just using them right before intercourse. Vaginal estrogen doesn't work that way either. Both of these, they have to be used regularly and consistently if you want to see the benefits. 

With the over-the-counter moisturizers, though, you have to be careful. There's a common one called Replens that you can buy in just about any grocery store or drugstore. [00:54:55] But that Replens has propylene glycol in it, which can actually be irritating. So you don't want to use anything that's going to make the problem worse.

Three ingredients that I recommend avoiding in lubricants and moisturizers are glycerin, parabens, and propylene glycol because they can cause irritation.

Back to menopause, I think it's important that we look at this time and embrace it and enjoy it because it's a change in life. It's a new chapter. Some women may feel a sense of loss or grief as we no longer have our menstrual cycle or reproductive ability, and our experience changes with aging, of course. 

Society, as we know, places a lot of pressure on women to stay youthful and vivacious, and using our youth makes us feel less desirable or less valuable. [00:55:55] Obviously, this is a harmful and false narrative, so we must look at aging as a gift and embrace it as a gift from God.

A lot of women feel a renewed zest and look at this season as an opportunity to try something new, new hobbies, interests, ministries, or goals that had previously been elusive because we were too busy. It's a great time to seek the Lord and learn what He has in store for us.

Laura Dugger: I love that positive perspective. It's always helpful to hear the good news. One of the most common questions that couples ask related to their sex lives, and I would say especially Christian couples, will ask, is this okay? I realize this is a sensitive and controversial topic, but from your vantage point, Dr. Kris, as a Christian and as a clinician, what is your opinion on sex toys? [00:56:58] 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: That's a great question. I get that also: Is it okay? You know, it really is, I think, a condition of the heart. If we're looking at sex toys as a way to just experience great orgasms or to pleasure ourselves and not using them in the context of the sexual intimacy that God has intended for us, that's probably not the most ideal setting.

But if we look at sex toys as a tool to help us enjoy our sexual intimacy with our spouse, I look at it as a tool and as an aid, because as we get older, our sexual function changes, our bodies change, and using, especially like a vibrator, increases that sensation, it increases the arousal, and it allows us to be able to continue to connect in various ways. [00:58:08] So as long as we're not looking at it as a way to replace our partner and it's a way to enhance our intimate time together, I think it's okay. But again, it's a condition of the heart.

Like Paul says in 1 Corinthians, I have the right to do anything you say, but not everything is beneficial. I have the right to do anything, but I will not be mastered by anything. You say, food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both. The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord and the Lord for the body. 

I think as long as we're using them in the context of our loving, intimate relationship with our spouse and they're there to help enrich the experience, I think it's okay. But again, it comes down to the condition of the heart. [00:59:08]

Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing your perspective on that. I know there have been previous episodes with authors who have even given questions as filters and kind of used this same scripture. Is this beneficial to your marriage? Is this something that in your heart you feel is God-honoring? So I love that recommendation that everybody takes it to the Lord themselves and see where He convicts them. If it is something He says, yes, enjoy freely, or provides a word of caution, and maybe it's different for different couples.

Well, Dr. Kris, where can we go after this chat to learn more from you?

Dr. Kris Christiansen: I have a business that I started. It's called Intimate Focus. The website is www.intimate-focus.com. I started this company because I wanted to provide a place where women and couples can learn more about sexual health, sexual wellness, and purchase quality products to enhance their sex lives. [01:00:19] 

In my medical practice, I often recommend getting a good lubricant or a vibrator which can help with stimulation, but obviously many women are reluctant to go to an adult store or order something like this from Amazon if other people are looking at their purchase history. Like with lubricants and moisturizers, you can buy them at Target or the grocery store, but they often contain ingredients that can be irritating and contribute to pain, so you have to be really careful.

So I wanted to provide a safe, comfortable space where people can get good information about sexual health and wellness and be able to purchase quality products. From that website, products will arrive in an unmarked box from IGH Focus, not even Intimate Focus, so nobody will suspect anything crazy. 

But God planted the idea of this business in my heart, and I consider my business and my medical specialty as my ministry, because God designed sexual intimacy, and we need to be able to provide a platform where it's safe, it's not shameful, and it's okay to talk about it. [01:01:34] 

So I want to help educate and empower women to take away the shame associated with sexual intimacy and pleasure. I believe that sexual health and function and pleasure are God-given gifts, and we should be able to enjoy sexual intimacy throughout our lives.

However, as we've discussed, there are a lot of factors that can negatively impact sexual function, and people need to know that there is help available. So if you go to the website, intimate-focus.com, and you click on Contact, right now it's just me, so that email would come directly to me, and that's a way to reach out. 

On sexual health concerns in general, especially if you need a sexual medicine provider, please go to the ISSWSH website, stands for the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health, isswsh.org. [01:02:35] And on that website there is a "Find a provider", so you can type in your location and see if there is a provider near you.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will provide all of these links in the show notes for today's episode. Dr. Christiansen, I have one final question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge, and so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Kris Christiansen: One verse that comes to mind is James 1:19 and 20. "My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this. Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce a righteousness that God desires." 

So, if we could all take James' advice, be quick to listen, slow to speak, and definitely slow to become angry, we would do a better job of understanding others, have empathy, love, and compassion. [01:03:49] I try to do that. Can't say I'm always really good at it. That's one of my savvy sauces.

Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. Dr. Christiansen, I just want to again say thank you for educating us on these sensitive subjects and doing so with kindness and gentleness. I am so grateful for you and I just want to, again, say thank you for being my returning guest.

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, thank you, Laura. I have enjoyed this and I really, really appreciate the opportunity because God created sexual intimacy, He wants us to enjoy it. Sometimes it doesn't always work as planned, so we have to provide a place where people can go for help.

Laura Dugger: Well said. 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. [01:04:52] Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [01:05:57] 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [01:06:56] 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.

215 Enriching Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.

 

**Transcription Below**

 

215. Enriching Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen

 

Hosea 4:6a (KJV) "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge,"

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What type of sexual dysfunctions are common for your clients to experience?
2. What all can you teach us about hormones?
3. Will you educate us on hormone therapy?  

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities.  Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life. 

 

Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society’s new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being.    

 

In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.

 

Websites Mentioned:

Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website

North American Menopause Society

Women's Sexual Health Information

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com. 

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen is a sexual medicine specialist, and we are fortunate to have her as a guest today to share about sexual intimacy and the role of hormones. She will also offer solutions to common issues that arise in this area of marriage.

 

Here's our chat. [00:01:18] 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Christiansen.

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, thank you so much, Laura, and it is a pleasure to be here. I'm honored to be part of your program.

 

Laura Dugger: Will you just start by telling us a bit more about yourself and how you ended up in this somewhat unique career?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: It is a unique career. Well, I'm a family physician, and I practiced full-spectrum family medicine for about 10 years before all this happened. Now, I delivered babies and took care of children and adults of all ages, but I always kind of felt unsettled, like there was something else for me and really didn't know what that was.

 

I prayed to the Lord that he would give me direction where to go, what to do, you know, because after going through medical school and all that time, it's hard to think about change. But what happened was that my husband and I joined a small group on marriage in our church, and we were going through the book, Love & Respect by Emerson Eggerich, which is a great book. [00:02:28] But that first week we met, the leaders asked if anyone wanted to lead a particular chapter. And I'm thinking, "Well, you know, I'm working full-time, I got two small kids, my plate is full, I don't need to add one more thing."

 

But wouldn't you know that my husband raised his hand and said, "We'll do the one on sex." I thought, "What in the world are we going to talk about?" Because, you know, we could have used a little help in that area too.

 

So I went to the local Christian bookstore because I had to get books, you know, I always have to rely on something. Our library grew quite a bit after that trip, which was kind of fun. I had prepared this talk knowing that it wasn't going to be much of a discussion in the small group setting because nobody wants to talk about it.

 

With that opportunity, it was a fun group. And then later, the leaders of our women's ministry asked if I would do that same talk at our women's retreat. [00:03:38] I go to a small church, so here we have, what, 50 women, basically sitting on the edge of their chairs, eyes wide open, taking notes about everything that God had inspired me to talk about.

 

So through that, he just opened my eyes and what a huge need we have in terms of sex and marriage, because we often don't talk about it. There were several things that happened after that where God just opened key doors. I was able to get training in this area. And then a few years later, this is what I do for my sub-specialty. And it's very rewarding.

 

Laura Dugger: I love to hear that. Then I'm curious, what type of sexual dysfunctions are most common for your clients to experience?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, I see both men and women, and they have a host of things going on. [00:04:41] As far as female sexual problems go, the most common one is low libido. But sexual dysfunction is usually categorized into four different domains: libido, pain, arousal, and orgasm problems. Women rarely have just one problem. They have two or more of these issues, and each one affecting the other.

 

A common scenario is for a woman, often in her middle years, but I've seen young women, in their late teens, early 20s. My oldest patient was a man who's 95. Yeah. And I have a handful of 80-year-old women in my practice. It's actually quite fun. 

 

But the common scenario for women, low libido, decreased sexual desire. The root problem is usually not just low libido, it's often associated with other underlying problems, like pain, or decreased arousal, or that difficulty with orgasm. [00:05:47] 

 

So sometimes the low libido is just due to the brain's neurochemicals being a little off-balance, kind of like depression. You know, depression isn't necessarily due to a specific situation, but our brain chemicals are just a little out of whack. In that case, there's no specific external factor contributing to the low desire. It's as if somebody just turned off the switch. And no matter how many date nights, glasses of wine, or vacations she may take, she just doesn't have the desire to engage in sexual intimacy. And it can be really distressing for her, and hard on the relationship. So it's also a matter of trying to figure out what else is contributing to it. 

 

Pain is a very, very common concern. And there are so many things that can cause pain. I see a lot of women who've been to several doctors and other providers who basically just brush them off, say, you know, again, have a glass of wine, relax, use more lubricant, and you'll be fine. [00:06:55] But no matter how much lubricant they use, it's still going to hurt. And then if they have that low desire, along with pain, it's just really not going to help. 

 

One of the common causes of pain in pre-menopausal women is birth control. Hormonal birth control like pills, you know, birth control pills, the patch, or NuvaRing, they can have a significant impact.

 

Now, most women tolerate those birth control pills just fine and don't have any problems. But there are a few who experience very significant side effects from these medications. We know that birth control can cause low libido and pain, decreased arousal, and problems with orgasm, because the contraception affects their hormones. These pills significantly decrease our own body's estrogen and testosterone, and that has a huge impact. [00:07:53] 

 

I've seen many young women who have so much pain that they are unable to tolerate any kind of vaginal penetration. I mean, not even a tampon, let alone have intercourse. So these women are in loving, stable relationships, and they really want to be intimate with their husband, but they just can't because of the pain. So you can imagine what impact that has on the relationship. 

 

So if we just stop the pills, it helps, but it doesn't necessarily resolve the pain because these vulvar tissues have undergone changes, often like menopause, and usually needs to be treated with a hormone cream to restore these tissues.

 

These women also have very tight pelvic floor muscles, which contributes to the pain, and then pelvic floor physical therapy can be helpful. So before sending them off to PT, though, we'd like to heal up their vulvar tissues so PT has the best benefit for them. [00:08:52] 

 

As women age, our estrogen levels fall during perimenopause and menopause, and those low estrogen levels contribute to a similar issue with vaginal dryness and painful intercourse. So very similar situation to what women experience with birth control pill problems. 

 

As for men, the most common concern is erectile dysfunction. ED is really common. We know that ED can affect 40% of men in their 40s, 50% of men in their 50s, 60% of men in their 60s, and so on. So by the time he's 95, he probably does need a little extra help. 

 

Our patients have usually tried at least one medication like Viagra or Cialis before they come to see us, but unlike those old commercials used to imply, the oral medications are only effective in about 60% of men, not 100%. 

 

So we offer other treatment options besides just the oral medications, and we also encourage healthy lifestyle habits like adhering to a healthy diet and getting adequate sleep, which is so important, quitting smoking, limiting alcohol, and getting regular exercise because all of these things can be helpful. [00:10:08] 

 

Bottom line, if someone has concerns about their sexual function, they should first talk to their primary care provider. If that doesn't help, then seek out a sexual medicine provider because we are out there, and we're there to offer hope.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, I'm just in awe of all of your knowledge and the way you succinctly articulate all of this. Just a follow-up question, is it true that women who are nursing can sometimes experience those same side effects as someone who is in menopause?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: That is absolutely true. We know that during pregnancy, estrogen levels rise, so they're relatively high throughout the pregnancy, which is great. Women often feel much better when they're pregnant. And then as soon as that baby is born and when you're breastfeeding, estrogen levels plummet, and they are really, really low, just like menopause. [00:11:09] And you throw in a few other hormones like prolactin, which also decreases sexual desire, it makes sexual function a little challenging in that postpartum period. Sometimes a little vaginal estrogen can be helpful for pain, but also know that it will get better.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi Family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. 

 

Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. [00:12:11] They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple “Welcome to Sam Lemans”. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.

 

I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.

 

Learn more at their website, Lemanyureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for “Sam Leman in Eureka”. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

Laura Dugger: For the male's side, I'm sure erectile dysfunction, it's too broad to give simplistic reasons, but when you say 60% of men in their 60s and so on, is that often due to the decrease in testosterone that men experience, or is it often related to circulation and their heart health, or are there any other main reasons? [00:13:23] 

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yes, there are a lot of reasons. Men and women, our testosterone levels kind of decrease, maybe 1 to 2% per year, so not huge amounts, so that, you know, the decreased testosterone does impact erections. But even more importantly, it's all these other factors, like age and the wear and tear on the blood vessels, and things that can impact erectile function, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, smoking, diabetes, and being overweight. So the better that we can control all of those factors, the better the blood flow and the better the erections.

 

Laura Dugger: This is a rather broad question, but hormones clearly affect us in so many ways. So, Dr. Kris, what all can you teach us about hormones?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Hormones affect absolutely everything. In women, there are three important sex steroids or hormones. I use steroid and hormone interchangeably. But there's estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. [00:14:33] And we think of estrogen for women and testosterone for men, but both sexes need both hormones. 

 

Women need a little testosterone and men need a little bit of estrogen for their bones. So, for women, we have about 10% of the amount of testosterone that men do, and we need that 10% for sure. It has such an impact on energy and libido and arousal, lubrication, and all those really good things. 

 

Likewise, estrogen has a huge impact on just about every body part. It also impacts sleep, our cognitive abilities, our mood, and definitely the sexual function. 

 

The ovaries start producing estrogen in puberty, and our ovaries continue this production until menopause. There may be some breaks like with breastfeeding, but during our reproductive life, estrogen levels fluctuate throughout the menstrual cycle, and they're highest at the time of ovulation. [00:15:38] And we also know that testosterone levels increase a little bit around that time, which then increases desire. So, you know, it's God's way of helping families to continue to multiply and grow. 

 

So at least around that time of ovulation, libido increases. After ovulation, estrogen levels decrease, and progesterone levels increase. So if conception doesn't occur, then the progesterone levels drop in the experience of period. 

 

When progesterone levels increase, some women may feel a little or a lot more irritable, which is that contributing factor to PMS. For others, progesterone can have a calming effect. Actually taking progesterone as a medication in perimenopause, and menopause can help with sleep, which is kind of nice. 

 

So estrogen affects pretty much every organ in the body. In the brain, it affects our body temperature adjustment. In the perimenopause, menopause years, when our estrogen levels fall, that's when those hot flashes occur. [00:16:42] 

 

It can also affect memory function, learning, language. Sometimes in perimenopause, with those fluctuating estrogen levels, we might have some word-finding problems, trouble making decisions, and just experiencing some brain fog. 

 

Estrogen affects our skin, has to do with elasticity, and has an anti-aging effect. It affects our bones, which has to do with bone strength and bone density. So when estrogen levels fall after menopause, you have an increased risk of thinning bones, osteoporosis, and fractures, unfortunately. So it's important to take that calcium to keep your bones strong. 

 

Estrogen also affects our liver, and that's where the cholesterol production is regulated. So some women experience increasing levels of cholesterol after menopause once those estrogen levels fall. 

 

It also has cardioprotective effects before menopause. [00:17:42] You know, the Women's Health Initiative study, way back, you know, 20 years ago, we used to think that every woman should be on estrogen after menopause because it protects the heart. And that is true when we start estrogen prior to menopause, but after menopause, unfortunately, has the opposite effect and can increase the risk of heart attacks. 

 

Estrogen affects our ovaries, and that's where we get the egg maturation release every month, giving you a period or a pregnancy. And the effect on the uterus, it's monthly preparation for pregnancy in pre- and perimenopausal women. So in perimenopause, if you're still getting a period, even if it's irregular, you could still, fortunately or unfortunately, get pregnant. 

 

Then there's testosterone. Testosterone is really important for both men and women. And like I said, women have about 10% of the amount of testosterone that men do, but we need that because it affects things like libido and lubrication, arousal, and orgasm. [00:18:47] It also helps with energy, mood, and concentration. 

 

Fun fact, women have more testosterone than estradiol or estrogen throughout our lives, and people don't realize that. In our reproductive years, the average level of estradiol is 150 picograms per milliliter. That's just the measurement. During those same reproductive years, we have on average 400 picograms per milliliter of testosterone. 150 versus 400. Who knew? 

 

Laura Dugger: Hmm.

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yeah. After menopause, estrogen levels fall. So after menopause, estrogen levels are in the 10 to 15 picograms per milliliter range, whereas testosterone is about 290. Again, much, much higher. When women have their ovaries removed with surgical menopause, estrogen levels are quite low, but that also drops our testosterone levels down to 110 instead of 290. [00:19:57] So our ovaries are efficient little hormone factories. 

 

As for men, we know testosterone is really important for them. It affects their mood, concentration, libido, sexual function, muscle mass, strength, endurance, and bone health. If men have low testosterone, they may experience low energy, decreased stamina, decreased libido, trouble with their erections, and trouble with orgasm. 

 

Many of these problems are common and nonspecific. So they might experience these issues and still have normal testosterone levels. So just because they have decreased energy or decreased stamina doesn't automatically mean that their testosterone levels are low. We only want to go about treatment if they have low testosterone levels because there are risks and side effects associated with it. 

 

People often ask how we can maximize our healthy functioning throughout our lives. [00:21:01] Well, it all has to do with just basically taking really good care of ourselves. We should eat a healthy, well-balanced diet with lots of fruits and vegetables, minimize processed foods, and get adequate sleep, which usually means somewhere between seven to nine hours a night.

 

If we're not getting enough sleep, we're not getting that restoration, and it can definitely impact especially testosterone levels. We also recommend exercising regularly. CDC recommends 150 minutes per week. Maintaining a healthy weight is also really important. We want to drink plenty of water, minimize sugary drinks, and minimize alcohol too. 

 

Other things to avoid: tobacco, vaping, excess alcohol, and drugs. We also want to try to minimize stress and have a healthy way of coping with stress because we know problems occur, stress occurs, but if we have a healthy way of dealing with that, it can have a positive impact. [00:22:04] 

 

As a medical provider, you need to see your medical provider, your family doctor, or internist for routine preventative care. It's really, really important. Much better to prevent problems than to treat them because those problems then lead to effects on our sexual function and our hormone levels.

 

There are no specific foods, drinks, or supplements that help with hormones. People ask all the time, what if I take this or what can I eat? Again, it just comes down to the bottom line of eating a healthy diet with lots of fruits and vegetables. 

 

I want to caution your listeners about all those supplements that are out there. These supplements, they can make all kinds of claims and promises for miraculous results, but they usually don't have any scientific basis for these claims and they're not regulated by the FDA. So there's no guarantee that what they say on the label is actually in the capsule or pill that they're taking. [00:23:09]

 

There can be ingredients and even medications that are not reported on the label, and these can interact with current medications. So it can actually be dangerous. So I caution my patients to save their money and try to stay away from those supplements that make all kinds of crazy promises.

 

Laura Dugger: There is an exciting project taking place behind the scenes right now, and I would love to invite you to participate. I will give you more details as I'm able, but for now, here's my request. Will you email me your personal story of a specific way God has clearly shown up in your life?

 

Big or small, I want to hear an account of the way he made Himself known to you and maybe received credit for an answered prayer, or a way He worked out a situation in a miraculous way, or how he displayed His power in your life. There's no limit to the type of story to submit, as long as it's true. So please email me your story at this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. [00:24:15] I can't wait to read your story. Thanks for sharing. 

 

Just as you're sharing these ways to be healthy and how much that affects everything, even our sex lives in marriage, it just makes me think of self-control, which is a fruit of the Spirit. God has laid out these lifestyle rhythms that are healthy and support everything. So from my understanding, testosterone is replenished after sleep. And even when we engage in sex, we then produce more testosterone. Is that correct?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yes. Testosterone levels rise during sleep. So they're highest in the morning and lowest in the evening. This is especially true for men, less so for women. And if we don't get that restorative sleep, our body just can't reproduce or replenish that testosterone, which is really important. [00:25:17] 

 

As for increasing levels after sex, maybe a little bit, but not a huge amount. Sex and orgasm definitely increases other hormones like oxytocin and dopamine, norepinephrine, which is all great stuff. But the increase in testosterone after sex, it's probably negligible.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, that's helpful clarification. Now that we've kind of discussed this role of hormones, will you also educate us on hormone therapy?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Hormone therapy is the treatment of menopausal symptoms with estrogen and or progesterone. It can be started during perimenopause when you start having those symptoms. And it can be really helpful during that time. It's also really safe. 

 

It was previously called HRT or hormone replacement therapy. But in the last few years, this terminology has been changed to MHT or menopause hormone therapy. [00:26:24] Because we're not trying to necessarily replace everything. We're just trying to address those symptoms, which can be really bothersome for some women. 

 

In 2002, this study came out, the Women's Health Initiative, which was a huge study, like 60,000 women, average ages of 50 to 79. It was that study that scared all women off their hormones, and it scared doctors from using or prescribing it for the next 20 years, which is where we're at now. The pendulum is starting to swing a little bit and we still have a little ways to go.

 

This study, unfortunately, did women a huge disservice because they were starting older women, women in their 60s, 70s, and even 80 on estrogen. And we don't do that now because we know that the risk with estrogen does go up when we start those hormones in older women, which is over the age of 60. [00:27:29] And so if we started prior to the age of 60 and within 10 years of menopause, there are a lot of benefits to it and minimal risk.

 

This study, the Women's Health Initiative, we call it the WHI, you know, it's been analyzed and re-evaluated a number of times. So we've been able to come to terms with some of these issues. The benefits of estrogen, when we start them within 10 years of menopause and before age 60, it's one of the best treatments that we have for hot flashes and night sweats. 

 

It can help with sleep in perimenopause and menopause. It also helps with urinary tract symptoms. It helps with sexual function and improves our skin. Remember, it has that anti-aging effect. 

 

Other benefits. Studies show that there is a decreased risk of developing diabetes, improved blood sugar control if you do have diabetes. [00:28:29] It's great for bone health. It prevents bone loss and reduces fracture risk. There's also like a 30% decreased risk of colorectal cancers.

 

It's also great for your brain. Women who start estrogen earlier on, again, within 10 years of menopause, before age 60, have a decreased risk of Alzheimer's. It's good for the mood. It may help with depression and perimenopause and improve well-being. There are several studies that show a reduced risk of heart disease when we start it early on, too. 

 

So lots of good things. We do have to be careful because there are potential risks. And the risks increase when we start estrogen in older women, older than 60 or more than 10 years after menopause. With that, it carries the increased risk of gallstones, blood clots, cardiovascular events like heart attacks and strokes, and potentially breast cancer. [00:29:29] 

 

But there was a study published just this past year on looking at whether estrogen really does cause breast cancer. It compared 40,000 women with breast cancer and 400,000 women who did not. And through this study, bottom line was that estrogen did not increase the risk of breast cancer, which is amazing.

 

Let me say that again. Estrogen did not increase the risk of breast cancer. What they did find increase the risk was synthetic progesterone, which is like Provera. And with that, slight increased risk. However, if we use a so-called bioidentical form of progesterone, which is Prometrium, it's the same structure as our own body's progesterone, there was no increased risk. Again, bottom line, estrogen did not increase breast cancer in that study. [00:30:33] 

 

Other risks with estrogen is that if women still have their uterus, you know, no hysterectomy, they do have to take progesterone. Again, we want to take that bioidentical one because the progesterone protects against uterine cancer. Unopposed estrogen, meaning no progesterone, can thicken the lining of the uterus and that can lead to cancer. But taking the progesterone eliminates that risk. Just like we talked about, the safest type of progesterone is micronized progesterone. Prometrium is the brand name.

 

As women get older, you know, they have changes such as vaginal dryness and thinning of the tissues and other problems that we call genitourinary syndrome of menopause. And if it's just the vaginal symptoms that we're treating, vaginal estrogen is highly effective and extremely safe. 

 

So vaginal estrogen is a cream and it just acts locally. [00:31:34] It doesn't have the systemic effect like pills and patches do. It most definitely does not cause breast cancer, heart attacks, strokes, or blood clots. 

 

But if you get a prescription for this vaginal estrogen and you read the package insert, unfortunately it lists these risks of breast cancer and heart attacks and dementia and all kinds of crazy things. But the drug companies take the risks associated with systemic estrogen, that's the pills and the patches that increase our blood levels, and they apply that same risk to the vaginal treatments. It's a class effect. This is not the case.

 

I want to emphasize this is not the case because vaginal estrogen is really, really safe and it can basically be used until you die. There's no reason you have to go off it unless you do get breast cancer, which was not caused by the cream. But for that, you probably have to go off it for at least a period of time. [00:32:34] If you don't want to use that vaginal estrogen, then there are over-the-counter vaginal moisturizers, which if used regularly and consistently every few days, it can be helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, Dr. Chris, I have never heard this WHI analyzed so well. I'm just thinking of a few, I'm gonna paraphrase, just a few scriptures off the top of my mind where the Lord talks about my people, I think he says perish for lack of knowledge. That is so unfortunate that women have been given this disservice with this lack of knowledge. And yet in your unique career you are helping set captives free. Because when you're captive to insomnia and hot flashes and all these unpleasant symptoms, that is incredible that we have healthy and safe options available. 

 

Just to clarify, so when women start over the age of 60, that can have adverse effects. [00:33:36] But these same women, if they started prior to that or within 10 years of menopause, then you're saying they even continue after age 60 and it's still safe if they started before that?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: That is true. And that's what the more current research findings are reporting. Unfortunately, if a woman goes to her doctor and having, you know, hot flashes and night sweats and not sleeping, the majority of medical providers aren't always on top of all this more recent information. So doctors are still afraid to prescribe estrogen.

 

And if you start it early on when it's really helpful and actually protects against all kinds of great things, or protects against bad things actually, it is safe to continue. But the guidelines from years ago say only use the lowest dose for the shortest amount of time needed, you know, try to get off it within five years. [00:34:41] That's still in most providers' minds what they should recommend, but that's not the case.

 

After age 60 or 65, the North American Menopause Society, they say it's an ongoing conversation between a patient and her provider talking about the risks versus the benefits. And if you continue it, and it's important to get your mammogram every year, it's safe to continue as long as you don't have a heart attack in the meantime or a stroke. That would be reasons to have to stop estrogen.

 

Laura Dugger: You're also saying estrogen and progesterone, those you would want to start together, is that right, at the same time?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: If you still have your uterus, you have to take progesterone, yes.

 

Laura Dugger: And at what age approximately would you recommend that?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Recommend starting it?

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. [00:35:40] 

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: When a woman starts having symptoms. I'm a fan of starting it in perimenopause when those hot flashes start, because it can just be so helpful and protective for the heart and the brain and good things. Some doctors, though, may not want to start it until the woman is officially menopausal, which is 12 months after her last period. Bottom line, when a woman is experiencing symptoms, hot flashes, night sweats, brain fog, that would be an ideal time to start hormone therapy.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, thank you for that. I'm also curious, because you said a lot of providers are not aware of this, and I would say probably the general population is not aware of this. So where are some trusted places where you do find this information, or how do you stay current with sexual health and medicine? [00:36:43] 

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Things are changing all the time. Medicine changes all the time and so staying current is important. I think one of the best places to find information on menopause and hormones is going to the NAMS, North American Menopause Society website, which is menopause.org.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, wonderful. We'll put a link to that in our show notes for today's episode.

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Another great website, which is up and coming, is called PROSAYLA.com, P-R-O-S-A-Y-L-A. This is a website that is directed to the patient people, not providers, but providers can learn a lot from that too. It is supported by ISSWSH, the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health. So that's like my AMA, American Medical Association. [00:37:43] 

 

ISSWSH has this new website, just came live last year, that has all kinds of great articles that are based on science. I am on the committee that started this. I wrote a couple of articles that are on the website, and that's where people can go to find absolutely reliable information. I'm passionate about this, as you can tell.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes, well it's so good. I think clearly you just have an abundance of wisdom to share with us. There's still so much more that I want to hear about low sexual desire and orgasm. And just hear you explain perimenopause and menopause, just so many more topics. But we are out of time for today, so can we pause this conversation here and pick it up next week?

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Absolutely. Yes, no, I would love to chat with you again, Laura. This has been great.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, wonderful. We will pause for now, but until we meet again next week, could you provide your website where listeners could go to find out more about you in the meantime? [00:38:52] 

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yes. I actually started a business called Intimate Focus, and the website is Intimate-Focus.com. So with this business, I wanted to provide a place where women and couples can learn more about sexual health, sexual wellness, and purchase quality products to enhance their sex lives. In my medical practice, I often recommend getting a good lubricant or a vibrator, which can help with stimulation. But so many women are often reluctant to go to an adult store, for obvious reasons, or order something from Amazon, because of all the data that gets collected, and it shows up on your previous purchases and such. 

 

So I wanted to provide a safe place to do this, and God has definitely planted this on my heart. My medical specialty and this business are part of my ministry, because I want to help educate and empower women and take away the shame associated with sex.

 

I believe that sexual health, function, and pleasure are God's given gifts, and we should be able to enjoy sexual intimacy throughout our lives. [00:40:04] However, as we discussed, you know, there are a lot of factors that can impact sexual function, and people need to know that there is help available. 

 

So from the website, Intimate-Focus.com, you can purchase items which will be mailed in a discreet box, and the business name is IGH Focus, not Intimate Focus, so no one's going to suspect anything crazy. I will also be adding a page of resources and information where there are going to be more scientific-based articles and other information. 

 

Again, Intimate-Focus.com, and if you click on the contact button, it gives you a form to fill out for an email, and that just comes right to me. So I would love to hear from you.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add all of these links to the show notes for today's episode, and I look so forward to continuing this conversation next week. So thank you for being my guest.

 

Dr. Kris Christiansen: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me, Laura. This has been great. [00:41:05] 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:42:05] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:43:04] 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:44:07] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Applying Personality Training to Parenting with Dale Wilsher

Special Patreon Re-Release: Parenting Different Personality Types with Dale Wilsher 

 

“Train up a child in the way he should go [teaching him to seek God’s wisdom and will for his abilities and talents], Even when he is old he will not depart from it.” Proverbs‬ ‭22:6‬ ‭(Amp)

 

Dale Wilsher is a professional life and strength coach, a DISC personality trainer, and the author of What’s Your Mom Type? Discovering God’s Design for You. She’s the parent of four daughters, ranging in age from 16-23, and newly married to her husband, Jeff.  You can find her at www.DaleWilsher.com , www.YourAuthenticPersonality.com , and www.DaleWilsherConsulting.com

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.  

 

What’s Your Mom Type? by Dale Wilsher

 

Author Mentioned: David Benner 

 

The Savvy Sauce Additional Episodes on Personality: 

 

Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

 

Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships with Pastor, Scott Wildey

 

Deep Dive into the Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 1 with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

 

Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships Part Two with Author and Communication Coach, Kathleen Edelman

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website 

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

214 School Series (Legal) Gospel Sharing During School Hours with Joel Penton

214. School Series (Legal) Gospel Sharing During School Hours with Joel Penton

 

**Transcription Below**

 

John 17:20-21 (NLT) "“I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me."

 

Joel Penton is the Founder and CEO of LifeWise Academy, a program that provides Bible education to public school students during school hours. After its launch in 2019, LifeWise has quickly grown to serve more than 300 schools across the US.

 

Before starting LifeWise Joel founded other nonprofits including Stand For Truth and Relevant Speakers Network, an organization that has touched more than 3,000 public schools and 2 million students nationwide. As a speaker, Joel has presented to more than 2,000 live audiences and over 1,000,000 people across the country. He is also the author of three books.

 

Joel is a graduate of THE Ohio State University where he played football on three Big Ten Championship teams and one National Championship team for the Buckeyes. Joel lives in Columbus Ohio with his wife, Bethany, and their five children.

 

LifeWise Website

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What is the single greatest missed opportunity to impact our next generation of public school students?

2. Historically, public school students used to have religious and moral teaching as part of their expected schooling . . . how has this broken down over time?

3. What positive impact do you see religious education having on students and on schools?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org. 

 

Today is the conclusion of our school series. I hope you've enjoyed hearing from all of these fabulous educators, and I pray you have clarity and confidence to discern what form of education God is leading you to choose for your family at this time. 

 

Joel Penton is my guest today. He is an author and founder of LifeWise Academy, which is a program that provides Bible education to public school students during school hours. After reading his book entitled During School Hours, I was shocked and pleasantly surprised to discover this process is legal. [00:01:23] Joel is going to share all the details. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Joel.

 

Joel Penton: Thank you for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, it would be great to get to know you a little bit better first, so will you tell us a bit about yourself?

 

Joel Penton: Absolutely. So I am from a small town in northwest Ohio called Van Wert, Ohio. Met my wife at college when she and I attended The Ohio State University. We were both athletes there. I played some football for the Buckeyes. My wife was a gymnast. We got married while we were still in school. Just couldn't wait. 

 

After time at Ohio State, we went into full-time ministry, spent a dozen years traveling and speaking full-time, doing evangelism in public schools, until we started LifeWise Academy, which I know we'll chat about. But along the way, the Lord has given us five wonderful children, four boys and a girl. [00:02:26] The kids are now ages 13, 12, 11, 8, and 6. So if I sound a bit tired, that's why.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, that's incredible. I love hearing the family life stage. Right at the beginning of your book, you address the single greatest missed opportunity to impact our next generation of public school students. Will you share what that is?

 

Joel Penton: Yes. We say we believe the single greatest missed opportunity is something called "released time religious instruction", which most people have never heard of. That's a legal term. Here we are in 2023, and so many of us Christians are wringing our hands about what's happening with our schools and with the next generation, and how the word of God and prayer have been removed from the public schools in our nation. 

 

And little do most of us realize that in 1952, so over 70 years ago, the Supreme Court ruled that public school students can be released from public school during school hours, in the middle of the school day, students can be released to receive religious instruction, can be taught the Bible, provided the program is off school property, privately funded, and students have parental permission. [00:03:48] That's what this released time religious instruction is. Students can be released from school and attend religious classes. 

 

So this has been around for over 70 years, this opportunity that's right in front of us, almost no one has ever heard of it.

 

We started a program in 2019 to take advantage of this really amazing, almost hidden or under-the-radar opportunity, and it's really starting to take off, and we're excited about it.

 

Laura Dugger: How did you even discover this and even get personally passionate about students learning the Bible during school hours?

 

Joel Penton: Well, I'm passionate about it, about anybody learning the Bible during any hours ever since I became a Christian. I came to faith when I was in high school, as a freshman in high school. And so Jesus has been the center of my life ever since. That's why I went into ministry and to share the gospel with others. [00:04:45] Now that my wife and I have children, we want the Bible to be at the center of education for our children. So that's why I'm personally passionate about this.

 

However, I kind of... well, I didn't really stumble onto this release time thing. It kind of found me in the sense that people in my hometown of Van Wert, Ohio, started a released time program back in 2012. They discovered they could do this. Not only as the Supreme Court ruled on this, but now 26 states in the nation have laws about release time. Ohio is one of them. 

 

So they started a program in 2012 and saw incredible impact. Over 95% of the entire public school student body for the elementary school enrolled in the program. Nearly every kid in town, even though only 30% of them attend church, nearly every kid attends this program to be taught the Bible as part of their public school day. 

 

So that was 2012. In 2018, they reached out to me, being the hometown guy. I live in Columbus now. But they said, "Joel, you started a ministry to public schools. [00:05:49] So you're in ministry. The ministry is growing. We have this incredible program. We'd like you to help us figure out how come more communities don't have a program like this? Why hasn't this spread?" And so they kind of enlisted me to help them figure out why hasn't something like this spread coast to coast. It's been around for almost 70 years at that point.

 

I tell people that's the day I gave up sleeping when they called me to ask that question. That set me on the journey of trying to figure out, yeah, why hasn't this spread? Which led me to conclude that, well, you know, there's not a plug-and-play replicable model. Or there wasn't. So that's why we started LifeWise Academy.

 

Laura Dugger: Historically, public school students used to have religious and moral teaching as part of their expected schooling. So how did that break down over time?

 

Joel Penton: That absolutely was part of schooling in our country. Not only was it part and not only was it central to public education in our country. [00:06:50] In fact, biblical literacy was one of the driving motivations for even the start of broad education in America.

 

You could go back to the 1600s and there's a famous act in Massachusetts called the Old Deluder Act in the very early days of this, I guess we weren't even a nation at that point. But a law was passed saying that communities had to teach children to read so that they could read the Bible.

 

Much of early education was for the sake of children being able to read the scriptures. However, as the decades wore on and as sectarian differences from community to community began to be flattened and everything began to be more and more standardized across states and then ultimately across the nation, denominational distinctions were removed. And then with the rise of science and the scientific revolution and secularism, ultimately religion altogether was just removed. [00:07:55] 

 

The courts finalized that in the 40s and 50s, removing the Bible and prayer from public education altogether. However, the piece that most people miss is that in 1952, that's when the Supreme Court did rule, Well, religion can be part of the public school day, but it just has to be off school property, privately funded, and with parental permission. That's the opportunity we've missed and that's what we're trying to reinstall.

 

Laura Dugger: And it's an understatement to say that it's unfortunate for the direction we've moved. But for those schools who are implementing this, what kind of positive impact are you seeing this religious education have on the students and the school in general?

 

Joel Penton: Oh, well, we're seeing an incredible impact. I mean, it's the word of God and the word of God is powerful. It's active. It changes lives. It's spiritual and it's supernatural. And while we don't understand all of it because it's God's word and His spirit working, we see it. So we see kids coming to faith. [00:08:55] We see families being impacted. 

 

But there are some things that are just, I mean, so obvious. Well, for one, the stories that roll in, honestly, on a daily basis are incredible about families getting reconnected to the church, about lives being changed. I was just speaking in a church this past week, the week before, and a woman came up to me and said, "Hey, I want to thank you for what's going on with LifeWise. My family and I are in this church because of LifeWise. We enrolled our daughter and it was through that that we got reconnected to the church, and my daughter and I were just baptized two weeks ago." 

 

So hearing stories like that over and over, we see the impact. The schools are seeing it as well. The feedback we're getting from educators, administrators, and teachers is that they are seeing the impact. We had one school that did a study of the students who were sent to the principal's office for disciplinary reasons the most. They did a study and found that in that group of kids who were most sent to the principal's office for disciplinary reasons, those who attended LifeWise, their trips to the principal's office actually dropped from first semester to second semester by 60%. [00:10:03] Whereas the students who were not a part of LifeWise, their office referrals actually went up from first semester to second semester. And so we're seeing the positive impact.

 

It doesn't really surprise us because studies have shown that when kids have Bible education in their lives, their academics improve, their character improves, their mental health improves. All the things you want to see in the life of a healthy young person you see as a result of Bible education.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, let's focus in on one of those areas that you addressed, specifically mental health. Do you have any stories or examples to share of how this program has improved the mental health of students?

 

Joel Penton: Well, we are working with an agency right now that is doing some of those studies and compiling some of that data from our programs. However, there are many studies that show the connections between positive mental health and just religious activity altogether, all of the risk factors, things like anxiety, depression, suicide, or thoughts of suicide, all those things go down when somebody has religion in their lives, specifically Bible education. [00:11:21] And all the things of satisfaction, happiness, contentment, these types of positive mental health attitudes, all of those things go up.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:11:38] <music>

 

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

 

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

 

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. 

 

To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

 

[00:13:06] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and Joel, personally, we have some neighboring towns who are a part of LifeWise Academy, but I had never heard of it until a couple months ago. When I read your book, I just kept wondering, how did I not know about this? Maybe somebody else listening feels in the dark like I did as well. So will you explain exactly what LifeWise Academy is?

 

Joel Penton: Yes, absolutely. And don't feel bad. Don't feel in the dark. For one, we just started this in 2019. It is growing very quickly, very rapidly. But a year before that, in 2018, I was completely unfamiliar with released time religious instruction.

 

Here I was, I was in full-time ministry to public school students, and I had never heard of it. I should have been an expert when it comes to ministry to public schools. But yes, I will explain it. 

 

So LifeWise provides Bible education for public school students during school hours. [00:14:07] And those last three words are the critical words there. During school hours. Oftentimes when we say that, people think they either misheard us or they think that that sounds illegal or something. But it's very real because of the Supreme Court ruling that I've talked about because of the state laws. Students can be released from school to receive Bible education during school hours. 

 

And we're able to see such a large participation rate among students. Many times over 50%, sometimes upwards of even 90% of the entire school will enroll. And we know it's in large part because of the practical logistics, the practical opportunity that being during school. And so it's fairly simple.

 

Our program will operate alongside a public school, whether it's in a church down the street or maybe we meet in a YMCA or a storefront or maybe even the local community builds a building dedicated to this program. [00:15:07] Many communities do that. 

 

But we have volunteers, our staff who pick students up at the school, whether it's in a big red LifeWise bus or maybe they're even walking to an adjacent property. They'll take them off site, teach them a Bible lesson, and bring them back to the school. 

 

We teach the students through the entire Bible, Genesis through Revelation, over the course of typically five years, typically grades one through five is our focus, although we do serve in some schools all the way grades K through 12. But we'll teach them using a wonderful curriculum called The Gospel Project, where each and every lesson we talk about the head, heart, and hands. The head meaning what's the information on the page? What does the word of God say? Heart: how does it connect to the bigger picture of the gospel message? How is Jesus the hero of every story? And hands: how does it transform our character?

 

So we take kids off of the school property, teach them a Bible lesson, bring them back, usually just one or two classrooms at a time. Then we rotate until everybody in the entire school has an opportunity to take the lesson. [00:16:12] And what we're seeing is, again, incredible impact.

 

LifeWise provides all the systems, processes, resources, training, and curriculum so that local communities like yours can just follow the process, follow the steps, and implement a program to teach local students the Bible.

 

Laura Dugger: And then the teachers themselves, would these be lay volunteers or do you see mostly pastors stepping into this role?

 

Joel Penton: You know, it varies from volunteers to paid staff. Usually, it's paid because these programs can grow very large. For example, our largest program, there's a thousand students in the elementary school, over 900 of them are in LifeWise.

 

So two classrooms at a time, five times a day, five days a week, we're picking kids up, taking them to the YMCA, and teach them the Bible lessons. So we have two full-time teachers that teach through. 

 

But yeah, it can be local pastors. Oftentimes it's local individuals who have a background in teaching. Sometimes it's a young mother that doesn't necessarily want to teach five days a week. [00:17:15] Other times it's retired teachers. But ultimately it's local people. We give the communities the templates and the documentation so they can post jobs online and then people locally apply and we select the best candidates.

 

Laura Dugger: And when you say it could be a paid position, are they paid through community dollars that are raised for this? Because it does have to be separate from the school, correct?

 

Joel Penton: Yes, it does have to be completely separate from the school and it is local communities. Yes, they raise the funds. We give them all the templates and all the training, including training on how to raise money. How do you do your initial campaign to raise the first year's budget? And how do you do the fundraising to raise your monthly and ongoing annual contributions? But yes, it's a local project, funded locally. We're just providing the resources.

 

Laura Dugger: And then if there's more questions arising in people's minds, probably one of them would be, what does this take the place of during school hours? [00:18:18] Like when is this an option?

 

Joel Penton: That's a great practical question. It varies from school to school. Oftentimes, I think I would even say typically, we're able to work and chat with the school and create a way that they actually add a special to the rotation. So in the same way that students get art class once a week, gym class a few times a week, music class, oftentimes they'll add another special and it'll be an optional special of Bible class. So it's not necessarily taking the place of something. 

 

Other times, it'll be during maybe a lunch period or during a library time because that's typically an ungraded time and students can find other opportunities to check out books. That's where it becomes a little more art than science. And it really is dependent upon each unique school building, which has its own unique kind of bell schedule and classes rotation.

 

Laura Dugger: I'm sure I'm definitely missing some important angles. [00:19:18] So what are a few of your other responses to the most frequently asked questions you receive?

 

Joel Penton: Yeah, great question. Well, you've hit a couple. How does the schedule really work? That's a big one. Another one is funding. And then I did mention our curriculum. That question comes up a lot. One question we get often is have we been experiencing pushback? Sometimes people hear this and they think, holy cow. I bet this gets people riled up to think about pulling kids out of public school and teaching them the Bible. 

 

I would say that we've received some pushback, of course, but honestly, much less than I would have ever expected. I live in now a large suburb of Columbus, Ohio and I thought, "Boy, it's going to be really hard for this to work in, whether it's the large inner city or the suburban communities. I bet people are going to maybe get upset or push back." But we haven't really seen that very much. [00:20:17] 

 

What we're finding is that schools know that there's a great need in the lives of students and they're excited to see the community coming alongside the school and investing in the lives of students. We see that the case for it, that legally speaking, it's so unambiguously legal that, you know, schools don't feel like they're going to get in trouble or they're going to get sued.

 

And when you consider that it's entirely optional. Parents, you know, they sign their kids up if they want to. And if they don't want to sign their kids up, then they don't. So there's really not too much to get upset about. By and large, we're seeing, like I said, huge participation. 

 

What we're finding is that while there are some people that think Bible education is a bad thing, that actually that's very, very few people. That most parents, even if they don't have their family in church, see Bible education, character education as a positive thing. In fact, they're often thinking, "You know what, I haven't been taking my family to church. I haven't been investing in this way in my family. This is a great opportunity for me to do that." [00:21:22] And so they're signing their kids up. And then that becomes the first step in the whole family getting reconnected.

 

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe. And that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us. 

 

You've alluded to this a little bit, but can you clarify why this is still legal when people ask questions about the separation of church and state?

 

Joel Penton: Oh, yeah. Great question. That is often one of the first things people mention is, what about the separation of church and state? What we try to point out is that this is actually a very beautiful manifestation of the separation of church and state in the fact that students are literally separated from the state school to receive this religious instruction. [00:22:33] Because it's off school property, because it's not using any public funds, because it's not compulsory, that makes it very separate from the state school. 

 

And so this is something that any religion could do. You know, there could be a Muslim program or a Hindu program or whatever. You know, our program is a gospel-centered Bible education program. But in many ways, it is a great example of the separation of church and state.

 

Laura Dugger: And what kind of impact are you seeing in communities that have implemented this?

 

Joel Penton: Well, we're seeing broad impact. We're seeing impact in the lives of students. We're seeing impact in the schools themselves. And then we're seeing the impact in the communities, in the churches. I just heard from a school that it was a brand new startup program. Most of our programs have well over 100 students involved. But this is a small startup program that just at this time had 50 students involved. [00:23:33] And they were saying that over half of those students were already... the families were getting connected to that church, the church where the building where they were hosting the program. 

 

One of the most exciting things is to see how it is affecting the culture. We started this, Laura, because, you know, we wanted students to hear the gospel. We wanted students to come to faith. And that's happening. But then it's the other things that are also exciting, like the unity among churches. We hadn't really thought about how exciting that would be. But it is exciting to see the unity among churches, churches coming together for this common gospel-centered cause.

 

Also exciting to see the culture change in the school that we're hearing it's no longer weird in these schools to hear kids talking about Jesus. It's no longer weird to see kids carrying around their Bibles and reading their Bibles during reading time because now it's part of the school day. [00:24:34] This whole thing of silence when it comes to religion is not a thing in these schools because so many kids are involved. It's really changing the culture.

 

Laura Dugger: I love one of those words that you chose to use, unity. That's been a buzzword in our home. And even recently, my husband was just saying after his quiet time how he had never really considered that one of Jesus' last prayers was for unity. So as Mark was studying in his quiet time, he was in John 17. And I'll just read verses 20 and 21. He was reading in the New Living Translation. This was one of Jesus' prayers.

 

He said, "I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me." [00:25:33] 

 

And this idea that Jesus had the urgency to pray for unity and to be one, I love that this is a very practical way that the churches in the community can come together to share the love and light of Christ.

 

Joel Penton: Yeah. You just used the word "practical". We are now consistently hearing that from pastors. They're saying that this is the first time we as a community, the churches have really come together in a meaningful and practical way.

 

There is one pastor that was saying, over the years we've done things in an effort for unity but they all seem kind of forced. You know, we'll do a community service or we'll do something together at the fair once a year, but it seems a bit forced. Whereas this is something that is very meaningful. We are coming together for a mission, for a purpose. And that's to teach our public school students the Bible. In the same way the community is coming together in this public school, we as the churches are coming together and we're united in teaching our kids the Bible. And it's very exciting to see. [00:26:41] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and for anyone still kind of trying to wrap their mind around this or hopefully wanting to implement this, how do the logistics actually work then? Can you go into that a little bit further?

 

Joel Penton: Yes, absolutely. Now it might get a bit nerdy, but I will get into it. There's kind of two things to consider when it comes to logistics.

 

The first one is how to get a program started and then the second would be how is a program run and operated on a day-to-day ongoing basis. When it comes to starting a program now that we've done this, which, by the way, I don't think I've mentioned, we just launched the program in 2019 and this year we'll be serving over 320 schools across 12 states. So we anticipate well over 30,000 students to be enrolled. And so we're really excited.

 

But that's in part to say that now that we've done it over 300 times, we feel really good about our very simple and clear 10-step launch process. And that 10-step process is kind of divided into three phases. [00:27:42] We have an interest phase where we establish with the first few steps that there's adequate interest in the community to launch and sustain an effective program. 

 

And then we have a planning phase where a steering committee works with one of our staff members. We assign them and they put together a plan. That's the plan that's taken to the school to discuss how can we see this implemented locally. Ninety percent of the time, the plans we present to the school are approved. 

 

And then we have an execution phase where all those plans that are brought to life with a T minus plan. 

 

But it all kicks off with that interest phase, which is really driven through what we call our community interest list on our website. And I'd invite everybody listening to go there, LifeWise.org, at least learn more. But even more so, click "Find your school".

 

Every school district is listed on our website. And you can find out if there's already a LifeWise movement underway and whether or not there is. You can add your name. You can voice your support on the community interest list. Once we see 50 signatures on the community interest list, which is basically a petition that signals to us, Okay, people in this community want to do it. [00:28:51] So that's actually step one. And then we move on through that 10-step process.

 

So get to LifeWise.org, click "Find your school", add your name to the list and you'll be in the loop and you'll be voicing your support.

 

So that's the 10 steps to get it started. And then ongoing maintaining a program. There's a local director. There's a local board. And then, of course, there's other local leaders and teachers and volunteers. 

 

But we talk about and here's where it might get nerdy, I apologize, Laura. Or you can cut this out if it's too boring. But we talk about the five L's of LifeWise operations, the five big operational categories that keep things going.

 

Leadership. So there's the people element, your volunteers, teachers, leaders. 

 

Location. So that's where you hold the program and a necessary transportation.

 

Logistics. So there's your school schedule, your enrollment policies, that type of thing.

 

Loot. That's my personal favorite, which is the money thing of fundraising and finances, that type of thing.

 

Language is the final L. That's communicating with parents and the school and donors, that type of thing. [00:29:55] 

 

There's a board member that heads up each of those five things. And the director kind of holds all that together. By focusing on those operational categories, communities can continue moving forward and reaching more and more students.

 

Laura Dugger: That's actually really helpful to hear it laid out that way. I'm just curious, do you have any favorite stories that come to mind?

 

Joel Penton: Yeah. Oh, boy, favorite stories. Absolutely. Well, I think of one story that actually your listeners could kind of see for themselves, we have a video on our videos page called Christian's Story. And this is a story that the chapters continue to be written. 

 

A couple of years ago, we launched a program in a suburb of Columbus and a mother signed up her child who almost ironically is named Christian because they weren't part of a church, not necessarily a Christian family. But she got the flyer in the mail and she said, "Hey, Bible education." And she thought what I think many of our parents think is, "Hey, this couldn't hurt." And so she signed up Christian. [00:30:56] 

 

Of course, Christian fell in love with Jesus, fell in love with the Bible, asked his LifeWise teacher if she would call his mother and invite his mother to church. So the LifeWise teacher said, Sure. So she called her up and invited her to church. The whole family went. And to this day, the whole family is plugged into that church. Christian's in the class to be baptized. His mother's in a weekly Bible study with the LifeWise teacher. 

 

And the latest chapter I just heard is that the family is actually moving to a different part of town. And so they're actually moving out of that school district. Christian was really sad when he found out that the school he was moving to didn't have a LifeWise. And so he and his LifeWise teacher started praying that they would have a LifeWise. 

 

And sure enough, when Christian went just a few weeks ago to the open house day at his school, he saw that there was a LifeWise table at the open house because they were starting a LifeWise this fall. [00:32:00] And so Christian is already back at school and back in LifeWise at his new school. 

 

I think that story for me just shows.. It's like almost all the different awesome things all at once. It shows the power of the gospel and the life of that child. It shows what changed Christian's life. I think it shows also how it can then spread to the family and get the entire family engaged. Then lastly, I think it shows that this thing of LifeWise academy is spreading and it's really possible to implement in any community coast to coast.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Joel, that is incredible. The gospel practically lived out through this program, it is changing lives for eternity. If anyone wants to take that first step, where would you like to direct us after this conversation?

 

Joel Penton: I'd really direct you to our website, LifeWise.org. Of course, you can find my book on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, but I'm really not that interested in selling a lot of books. [00:33:01] I'd much rather prefer everybody find their way to our website, LifeWise.org. Jump around, watch some of our videos. But before you leave, click "Find your school" and add your name to your local community interest list. Or maybe there's even already a program in your area. Get connected and at least voice your support. And then you'll be in the loop and you'll get our communications if you go to LifeWise.org.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add the links to that in the show notes for today's episode. You may be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Joel, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Joel Penton: Oh, my goodness. My savvy sauce, practical knowledge, getting super practical. Can I say two things? 

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely.

 

Joel Penton: I'll say one thing. And that is... and I don't know if you're looking for productivity, but I believe in rising early in the morning. When I was a child, my dad taught me that. He basically said that if you want to be a great something, then you better get up early in the morning. [00:34:04] So I like to start my day very early and I encourage my boys to do the same and my daughter — my kids. And I just invite everybody. That's a very low-hanging fruit and a very simple thing. 

 

The second thing, another thing my dad taught me, he said, "List your work and work your list. Otherwise, things will get away from you." And so I lead now this organization and we have... I think we just eclipsed 800 employees. And I tell people, I know it should be more complicated than this, but I'm a simple person. Whatever you do, list your work and then work your list. I should be able to see your list. You should be able to show me your list anytime. It really is that simple.

 

Laura Dugger: So good. Joel, your energy is inspiring and I just appreciate your zeal to reach the lost for Jesus. So thank you very much for being my guest.

 

Joel Penton: Ah, thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:35:06] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:36:11] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. [00:37:16] Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:38:17]

213 School Series: Charter Schools and Enjoying Parenting with Dr. Eva Moskowitz

213. School Series: Charter Schools and Enjoying Parenting with Dr. Eva Moskowitz

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Deuteronomy 4:9 (NIV) Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How can we all become enthusiastic lifelong learners and train our children to be the same?

2. What exactly is a charter school and what are a few of your favorite reasons to recommend it as a viable option for parents and students to consider?

3. What are a few ideas for ways our families can enjoy life and learning together?

 

Eva Moskowitz founded Success Academy Charter Schools in 2006. She has authored four books including her latest, A+ Parenting: The Surprisingly Fun Guide to Raising Surprisingly Smart Kids. Learn more about her through Success Academy.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com. 

 

As we continue our school series, I'm reminded again of the overlap between educating and parenting children. Eva Moskowitz is my guest, and she beautifully weaves these topics together. She is the founder of Success Academy Charter Schools and author of A+ Parenting: The Surprisingly Fun Guide to Raising Surprisingly Smart Kids. We're going to chat about both topics, parenting and charter schools.  [00:01:20] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eva.

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Thanks for having me, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: Will you start us off by giving us a little context and sharing more about who you are and what you do? 

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. So my name is Eva Moskowitz, and I'm the founder and CEO of Success Academies, one of the largest charter networks in the country with extraordinarily high performance. We are in New York City, educating 21,000 students, kindergarten through 12th grade. We are all lifelong learners and incredibly enthusiastic about the criticality of a great education.

 

I'm also the author of four books and very interested in parenting. [00:02:21] I'm a mother of three myself, and I've been thinking a lot about how to raise intellectual children, both from a schooling perspective, but also from a parent perspective.

 

Laura Dugger: And after reading your most recent book, I gather that you are passionate about infusing the joy into learning. So you mentioned you all are enthusiastic lifelong learners. How can we all become that way and train our children to be the same?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, there's nothing more important than reading. You can teach yourself anything through books. We all need to be avid readers. I would argue not only of fiction but also nonfiction. I personally read four or five newspapers a day so that I can be an informed global citizen. I also listen to audible books and podcasts. [00:03:23] 

 

I find there are so many opportunities in today's world to continually improve yourself and make sure that you are more knowledgeable, more learned, more thoughtful, have better questions to ask. If you do that for yourself, you will also impact your children.

 

Laura Dugger: I think it's wonderful that reading is such a delightful activity, not only for ourselves, but also even reading aloud.

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Reading aloud is the best. With my three children, we read short stories aloud, we listened to short stories being read aloud by wonderful actors and readers. Today's technology actually affords so much ease at getting access to great literature. You can listen to the wonderful BBC dramatization of great novels and short stories. [00:04:30] There are so many different ways that you can become a lifelong learner today.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and again, back to your book. I love how you pointed out that students who are going to school are going to spend approximately 180 days a year at school. But that leaves the other 185 days at home. So there is actually an incredible opportunity for learning to occur at home. So, Eva, how do you think that we can be intentional to maximize the effort and enjoyment of those 185 days at home?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I think there are a couple of ways. I mean, first, just by realizing how precious that time is and that even formal schooling only occupies a small percentage of that. Obviously, we need to sleep and eat and clean our houses and pay our taxes and do the laundry and participate in religious or community activities. [00:05:37] But there's an awful lot of family time, and you want to use that time impactfully. 

 

You know, I wrote this book because I found a gap in the literature. There's tons of books on how to toilet train your child or how to deal with tantrums or all sorts of problems that parents encounter, but there wasn't anything in the literature on what I would argue is one of the most important jobs of a parent, and that is shaping and raising intellectual children. 

 

There are a variety of ways to do that. Reading is one, but it's certainly not the only one. I know you know from the book that I'm a huge believer in games, intellectual games. That can be super enjoyable for parents and for kids and, in fact, can be a family bonding experience that your kids will remember their whole lives. [00:06:38] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you brought out so many enjoyable activities to share together. I'm just curious, then, will you catch us up? What are the ages currently of your children?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I'm sort of at the other end of the spectrum, meaning I became an empty nester last year for the first time, which I was rather sad about. I love motherhood. I love the family and the family time.

 

My kids are now... my eldest is 25 and he's graduated from college. My middle one is at the U of Chicago studying mathematics and my youngest is at Wharton studying business in Philadelphia. 

 

But I did all these things when my kids were very young and when they were teenagers. We still play games to this day. The games are a little more sophisticated or there are games that they played when they were little, like Backgammon, that either can be played at sort of a six or 7-year-old level or a 20-year-old level. [00:07:48] My kids still enjoy those activity. 

 

My eldest recently was in a New York City Backgammon competition and is waiting to play the semifinals in his Backgammon competition. So it can last a lifetime. And it certainly has been a really important part of our family time.

 

Laura Dugger: I hope that you're even encouraged if you're hearing yourself. You have done what you set out to do with your children. And they sound like phenomenal human beings. I'm also curious, even going back to your family of origin, was this lifestyle instilled in you growing up as well?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yes. I mean, maybe a little less on the games. My family really emphasized dinner conversations. I can still remember to this day as a little kid, my mother and father asking us the big policy questions. [00:08:52] So they didn't say to themselves, well, a 6-year-old or 7-year-old is going to have nothing to say about peace in the Middle East. They kind of were patient with us and said, "Well, here's the issue. Here is how different sides view it. What do you think we should do or how do you solve problems like poverty? How do you make the schools better?"

 

So dinner conversation was something in my household growing up that my parents assumed that even young children could enter into those debates. I think the other thing they did was assume the criticality of diversity of thought. Meaning, sure, you want to raise your kids with clear values, but you also want to have some level of humility about whatever position you have.

 

There are alternatives and you want to learn to listen to those alternatives and always have evidence for your opinions or disagreeing with other people's opinions. [00:10:03] 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so well said. In this series so far, we've covered various schooling options such as public, private, and homeschooling. But now I'd love to learn a little bit more about charter schools. So what exactly is a charter school? And can you also share just a few of your favorite reasons to recommend it as a viable option for parents and students to consider?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. I'm maybe a little bit unusual in the sense that I support all forms of parental choice. I think it's really, really important that parents of all socioeconomic backgrounds, of all religions, of all ethnicities get to decide what works best for them. [00:10:52] 

 

But I am the founder and CEO of the largest network of public charter schools in New York City. A charter school is a school that is publicly funded. Unfortunately, we get less than the traditional district school, but it is nonetheless publicly funded, but independently run. So I have the freedom to make decisions about teaching and learning that I think is best for kids. Whereas in the district school, that is all sort of predetermined and a principal has to kind of follow the curriculum or follow all the rules that the district sets up. 

 

At Success Academy, we are able to do very rigorous mathematics, science, literature, history. And we're able to design a K-12 program that works backwards from college and life and ensures that students are not only intellectually prepared, but also have the habits of mind that lead to success. [00:12:15] 

 

We are very, very big at Success Academy on hard work and intrinsic motivation and organization, and time management. Those are just as important as being able to do physics and chemistry and calculus and game theory and economics, etc.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. Just to make sure I'm tracking with you, so a charter school is still publicly funded, but then maybe even each one would have a different emphasis. So someone listening in California or New Jersey may have different options for the emphasis of their charter school. Is that right?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: That's correct. So I am one operator and I have my particular educational vision and school design, but there are others that have a different design and a different educational vision. [00:13:18] And parents can literally kick the tires and figure out, well, which charter school in their community do they want to go to?

 

Laura Dugger: And then are charter schools free to the public?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yes, they are free. You are not allowed to charge money, but you get admitted by random lottery. So if demand exceeds supply, you must run a random lottery and accept on a first come first serve basis.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:13:58] <music>

 

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[00:15:20] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Let's just get a little bit more specific about Success Academy. When you're going back to the beginning, you said you worked backwards. Can you share a little bit more about your vision? And once those students launch, what is your hope and goal for them?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. So we would like 60% of our high school graduates to major in math, science, and engineering, not because we don't like history or poetry, but we think that pragmatically that is where the world is going. And I should mention that I serve mostly poor children. So 94% of our kids are Black and brown. About 80% live below the poverty line. And our kids are outperforming kids in the affluent suburbs or in affluent parts of New York City. 

 

So going back to our goal, we would like 60% to major in math, science, or engineering. [00:16:25] That is why we teach science five days a week starting in kindergarten. So it is not a second-class subject. It goes to the heart of what we do. 

 

Our kids will have studied physics multiple times in elementary before they get to middle school. Our kids in high school take AP Physics, Chemistry, Biology, AP Calculus, Electrical and Mechanical Engineering, Environmental and Biomedical Engineering. So that is one design element. 

 

I would also say, even though we have this emphasis on math, science, and engineering, our children read a poem a day starting in kindergarten. So, after 13 years, they will have read a lot of poetry when you do a poem a day. [00:17:27] So it is rigorous. 

 

We assess kids quite frequently so that we know if the children are learning. We also have a tremendous emphasis on what we call scholar talent. That is the visual arts, dance, sports. All of our kids in elementary play chess. We have very robust chess teams. We have a tremendous emphasis on coding starting as early as kindergarten.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is very impressive. It's fascinating that you mentioned a poem a day. Do you have any research to back that up or reasoning? Because I've heard that there's so much benefit for studying poetry, but I think it's helpful to know the why behind it.

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yeah. I don't have research other than I've been educating thousands of kids over the past 18 years. [00:18:32] And I find it, one, very pleasurable because great poets provoke and delight and make one think. But we call them in kindergarten wonderful little packages that kids get to open up and really figure out the deeper meaning.

 

They're like little puzzles where kids have to infer because in poetry, everything is not explicitly laid out. The poem about a rosebush is not really about a rosebush. It's about the bloom of life and the diminishment of life as one journeys through the life cycle. 

 

So kids have to kind of figure that out. We love how compact the exercise is. And we find that children get very good at seeing the delight in language and unpacking the intellectual puzzle that lies within the poem. [00:19:48] 

 

Laura Dugger: I even remember back to my own childhood, whatever age we were when we maybe started resisting poetry or scoffed at it. And one teacher was saying, actually, all of you love poetry, and you probably listen to it on a daily basis. And she pointed out that music is set with language of poetry. So that's always stuck with me. If just in case someone's listening and thinking, oh, poetry is not for me or I don't want to incorporate that, it may already be a part of your life and benefit you in ways you're unaware of.

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: That's an excellent point. Actually, in the book, you know, we have a whole chapter on lyrics and songs because you're absolutely right. Vocal music is poetry set to music. So unpacking lyrics is not only enjoyable but quite intellectually productive. [00:20:47] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how education and parenting just go hand in hand. More on the parenting side, I think there are so many parents that have questions when it comes to the topic of discipline. So what has running schools taught you about disciplining children?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I have to confess, you know, I'm a little old-fashioned and really believe that order and civility is better for learning and for the emotional security of children and that any kind of chaos is not as productive. So at Success, we are a uniform school, meaning children are all in our orange and blue plaid uniform. Our classrooms are quite orderly.

 

That doesn't mean that kids aren't talking to one another. [00:21:48] You'll hear noise in our classrooms, but it will be children discussing books or mathematics or science. But I believe that schools have an obligation to teach kids self-regulation and internal discipline and that that is a really important part of schooling to teach the habits that lead to enormous success. So we are what we call warm, strict.

 

Laura Dugger: I like that. Will you unpack that a little further? Even if someone wants to apply that within their home, how can they also be warm and strict?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, you want to encourage kids to take intellectual risks and to try things, but no means no. And you want to use the no sparingly, but the rules need to be followed. So if your children have chores, they have to do those chores before they play. [00:22:54] If your children have to contribute to the running of the household, whether that's mowing the lawn or putting the dishes in the dishwasher or vacuuming or setting the table, whatever it is, your children must do that. 

 

Also at Success, we do believe in hierarchy. It's not a small d democracy. The teachers go by their last names. Students would either call me Dr. Moskowitz or Ms. Moskowitz. They don't say, "Hey, Eva." We're formal. We think that formality is important for children to understand that there is a hierarchy. You want some level of formality because that's part of growing up and understanding that respecting your elders or respecting your minister or rabbi or respecting elected officials or whatever the case may be, you want to raise children who understand that there is a formality. [00:24:06] 

 

Laura Dugger: I'll just read one other piece I appreciated. It was in your intro where you are talking about discipline, and I'll read your quote. It says, "Praise when it has been earned can be an even more effective motivator than criticism."

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I wholeheartedly believe that. Now, you don't want unearned praise. And it is important that kids feel positively about themselves and positively about learning. But you really want to make sure that you're not leading with the negative, but that the praise is well earned.

 

Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:25:11] If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox. 

 

Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the "Articles" tab. 

 

From your experience, how have you seen screens influencing our children's learning potential and their enjoyment?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I think it gives kids a kind of warped sense of reality to be on their phones. The average American kid is on for about six hours a day. And it has social implications. It's really important for kids to be able to bond with other kids and also learn how to resolve conflict. [00:26:17] If you're on your phone, you're basically alone. And that aloneness does not teach kids how to develop all the social skills.

 

I also think that TikTok and Instagram and even YouTube, not all of that is intellectually worthwhile. Some of it may be, but a child doesn't necessarily have the discriminating taste to know what is going to be productive and what is not going to be productive. So I am in favor of significantly limiting that kind of time on social media and instead reading and playing board games and playing parlor games. They're actually much more fun as well as being more worthwhile.

 

Laura Dugger: I really couldn't agree with you more. [00:27:18] I'm inspired by what you said at the beginning about having humility when we approach differences. So I need to keep myself in check. I hope I have a spirit of humility. 

 

But it is so hard to understand the use of iPads from my perspective. There is no research that I've come across where it is beneficial to increase all of the technology at home or in the schools. I would love to know whether you have the same or differing opinion. Would you like to speak into that at all? 

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. I think I have a different opinion. To me, technology is a tool to be more efficient. So we give all of our teachers iPads because it is easier when they're walking around the room and evaluating student work to use an iPad. All of our students have laptops. We give them laptops. We are fairly digital. So they do their homework digitally. [00:28:19] They take tests digitally. 

 

For us, it's purely a matter of efficiency. We were spending a ton of money on paper and paper is difficult to distribute and collect. We still do some things on paper but now there are digital writing tools. So we use a program called Kami, where all of our kids can use a stylist to do their mathematics. It's almost the same as writing on paper. 

 

I think what I object to is just all the TikTok, Instagram. There's a lot of cyberbullying these days. It's just sort of unnecessary, and I don't think it has a productive end goal. I mean, we have found that with our five-year-olds in kindergarten, for example, in addition to having math manipulatives, we also have virtual manipulatives. [00:29:19] But I would not have kids color on their iPad. Old-fashioned crayons, I think it's important to work with the material in art on paper. 

 

Now, as the kids grow older, we do animation in high school. And they're doing that digitally, obviously. But I think in the early years, it's important that kids get their hands dirty with paint and smocks. And the point is really to sort of free their minds to express their artistic ideas.

 

Laura Dugger: Love that. Well, you just have an abundance of ideas. So what are some of your ideas for ways our families can enjoy life and learning together?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I'll first say that if you look at parenting from one end of the telescope as opposed to the other, it can feel like a duty and a chore. [00:30:22] Of course, it is a duty. If you bring children into the world, there are parental duties. But I'm honestly trying to get parents to enjoy parenting more. I think if you enjoy it yourself, you will end up being a more successful parent. 

 

One of the ways to enjoy parenting is to do with your kids things that you enjoy. So I loved reading. So reading to my children becomes a really enjoyable activity, really bringing me back to my own childhood. My mother read to me constantly as a little girl. So that's one way to enjoy your children. I would argue that family dinners, if you have topics, and I would really encourage parents to have a topic, that could be a policy topic. [00:31:27] Or as our family often did, we would select a movie on Sunday night. We would have Sunday night movie night, classic movies. The kids would be involved in picking. And sometimes at the beginning, the time spent selecting the movie can be as long as the time spent watching it when there are disagreements, etc.

 

Then after the movie, we would have dinner. The dinner topic conversation would be about the movie. And it's a really great way to focus children of a variety of ages and have a sort of unified topic. So dinner is a really valuable way to intellectually engage one's children. 

 

I would argue things like parlor games, playing charades, cannot only be a tremendous amount of fun, but can be very, very educational. [00:32:30] As well as board games. I'm a big believer in Backgammon, blockers, chess, of course, many, many card games that are intellectual, from very simple ones to playing Bridge. Bridge is a great intellectual game. We started playing bridge with our kids when they were 8, 9 years old. It's a little slow going. And by the time they're in their early teens, they are quite accomplished at Bridge.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's just pause on a few of those. Let's go back first to the movie idea. Could you share a few of your favorites that your family watched and then discussed together?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. [00:33:18] Well, when they're little, we watched Judy Garland's The Wizard of Oz, which is just a tremendous favorite. You know, what is the lion? What is he afraid of? How does he get transformed? So that was an incredible favorite. 

 

As the kids got older, there is the great Humphrey Bogart. Casablanca is one of our family favorites. Lawrence of Arabia is one of our favorites. I have to say that we probably over-indexed old movies. So my kids have watched almost all the silent films. 

 

The comedies are great. Buster Keaton, how he did those stunts and the humor and the jokes. It gets kids involved in wit and what is witty about something and why is it funny? [00:34:18] What's the joke is a very worthwhile intellectual skill. And my kids just spend a lot of time laughing. We would watch the Tom and Jerry series that my kids found hilarious. And then we would sort of have to ask, well, why is it so funny? What about it is funny? And that intellectual exercise of articulating the joke, as it were, pays intellectual dividends.

 

Laura Dugger: What about for a family who's more passionate about art and music? What ideas would you recommend they could even start implementing this week?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I would encourage you to find musicians and lyrics that you love and play them with your kids and get the kids to be able to articulate. It may be you listen through it, but then at other times you kind of stop it and go over the lyrics or get them online and have the kids reading along while they're listening and talking about why that's such a great line. [00:35:30] You know, we did a lot of listening to Bob Dylan when my kids were growing up. He got the Nobel Prize for poetry because his lyrics are that good. 

 

In terms of art, we did a lot of art-making when I was growing up. My mother is herself an artist. But art was a little harder for us. It's only in the kids' late teens that they started getting interested in going to museums. But we dragged them to many museums and they didn't always love it. But it's interesting that now that they're adults, I find that they're going to museums and are appreciating art. So sometimes it doesn't kind of stick at the beginning and you have to kind of keep at it.

 

Laura Dugger: Which is so true for many parts of parenting. I love how you draw that out. Another section of your book, even helping us to enjoy our children more, I love this one, encouraging them to ask questions. So can you elaborate on how we train them in that and why it's so important? [00:36:47] 

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Curiosity is probably the biggest driver of learning, but it's not an on-off switch, as if some children were born without curiosity and some are. All children are curious. They might be curious about different things, and you can squelch their curiosity if you're not careful.

 

But if you encourage their curiosity, you will find that they ask so many questions you can barely keep up with them. But we've always explained things to our children and then paused. Usually, they have a follow-up question. So I can remember when my youngest, my daughter Hannah, was about eight years old. We would go on bike trips with our kids. We biked all over Europe and so forth. She was little, so she was on a tandem with my husband, Eric. [00:37:48] And he decided to explain the capital markets to her. She was 8. I could hear her asking questions and so forth.

 

I didn't really think about it much after that. But lo and behold, when it was time to apply to colleges, she said to my husband and I, "You know, Mom and Dad, I don't want to study Roman civilization that much longer. I would like to go to business school." And here she is attending Wharton. So I assume she got curious because my husband exposed her to a financial understanding. 

 

My middle one, my husband, and I were always, and there's a chapter in the book, on logic puzzles and mathematical riddles. He is studying mathematics at the University of Chicago. And his interest in math riddles was generated when he was 6, 7, 8 years old. [00:38:54] 

 

Laura Dugger: One thing that you write about made me think of a story I heard a while back where a junior hire was interviewed. And he said when he goes into a room, he likes to engage in conversation with the oldest person there who's going to take him seriously. That came to mind when you emphasized it's important to expose our children to adult conversations. I think the dinner table is such a natural place for that. But is there any other point you'd like to elaborate on for how you did this in your own family?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. I mean, I just think that there's a tendency to think that kids can't handle or are not interested in adult conversation. My parents and my husband's parents, they never had a little kid table. We were always included in the conversation. [00:39:58] My parents didn't lower the level. And I didn't do that with my kids. I assumed that they could raise up to the level of the conversation. Not that you wouldn't have to define a word here and there or explain. You know, you have to explain to an 8-year-old capital markets. Otherwise, they're not going to understand it. But you assume that you can simplify and give kids the general idea without going into all of the complexity. And they too can contribute intellectually to whatever the topic at hand is. I think that was part of my own success as a parent.

 

I also think that socially, my three kids, and I hope my 21,000 other kids, are very comfortable interacting with adults. They're not some weird species of animal. [00:41:04] My kids, you know, respectfully, of course, assume that they have something to contribute and something to learn from others. And I think that's a very important habit that we sometimes fail to teach kids.

 

Laura Dugger: Also, what would you say are some opportunities for learning through travel?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Oh, it's my favorite. First, I love to travel. But also, I love my kids to experience different cultures and to understand that we are part of a larger global context. But even more basically and perhaps more prosaically, you know, trying different foods and seeing different cultural norms, I think, makes you wiser, more humble, more sophisticated, more self-aware of what is great about your own country or your own culture when you travel to faraway places and other lands. [00:42:24] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and when you list ideas like this, I get so inspired and stirred up to give these a try. It's very energizing to me. But I also know some people can hear all of these topics and be a bit overwhelmed. You even address them. I love in the intro, again, I'll read your quote, because you graciously write, "If, like us, you can find some time to do some of the things in this book, it will have a huge positive impact on your children."

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yeah. And look, I was not a stay-at-home mom. Both my husband and I worked. I had a crazy schedule. I was an elected official when my children were very young. And then I built this enormous schooling operation. And so I didn't have gobs of time. But I did enjoy the time that I had with my kids. [00:43:28] I don't think you want to stress yourself out as a parent. I think you want to do what you can do and do it enjoyably and not over-index on should have, could have, would have. But find things that come naturally to you. 

 

You don't have to do all the things in the book. That's not the purpose of the book. The purpose of the book is to highlight some of the variety so that different parents who have different interests and different circumstances can support their children's intellectual development.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Eva, you have so much to offer. Where would you like to direct us to go after this chat if we would like to continue learning from you?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, you're more than welcome to go on the Success Academy website and find out about the school. [00:44:30] I also have a sharing arm where I put our course content material on our website for anyone to download. So if you want to see second-grade literacy or our third-grade science curriculum, you can find that online to use.

 

I should mention that all of the proceeds for the book go to the not-for-profit, which is Success Academy. But I would encourage you to get the book so that you have it as a reference for a rainy Saturday afternoon when you're trying to think about what to do with your kids. Or if you're homeschooling. There are obviously lots and lots of activities that you can do.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that we will add those links in the show notes for today's episode. Eva, you may already be aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:45:31] And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I would say that my savvy sauce is really to find enjoyment in parenting and think about how you can impact your kids' intellectual development.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, you are a brilliant and passionate woman, and I so appreciate you sharing your ideas with us today. Thank you so much for being my guest.

 

Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Laura, thank you for having me. It was my pleasure.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:46:33] 

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:47:35] 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:48:41] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow

Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow

 

Titus 1:1b (AMP) “for the faith of God’s chosen ones and [to lead and encourage them to recognize and pursue] the knowledge of the truth which leads to godliness," 

 

Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. 

 

Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.

 

He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.  

 

Visionary Family Website

 

Connect on Socials @visionaryfamilyministries 

 

A Sample of Books by Dr. Rob Rienow 

 

God’s Grand Vision for the Home

 

Visionary Marriage

 

Visionary Parenting

 

Family Worship: Genesis

 

Bible Studies with Dr. Rob Rienow 

 

Never Too Late

 

Visionary Single Parenting

 

Visionary Marriage

 

Visionary Parenting

 

Not So Perfect Mom by Amy Rienow

 

The Heart of Your Teen by Lissy Rienow

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website 

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

212. School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

 

Deuteronomy‬ ‭6:5-7‬ ‭(NIV) “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.”

 

**Transcription Below**

‭‭

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. How did your grandfather teach you about “kingdom economy”?

2. How have you set up your life in such a way that your entire family pursues wholeness?

3. Do you have any other practical tips for parenting or homeschooling you'd like to share?

 

Jodi Mockabee is a photographer, writer, blogger, speaker, social media influencer, and homeschooling mother of five living in the Black Hills of South Dakota. With a passion for health, wellness, parenting, and more, Jodi blogs her family's journey and shares tips for a healthy and active lifestyle. She also writes curriculum for creative and artistic learning in a homeschool environment. Find her at JodiMockabee.com.

 

Jodi's Book: The Whole & Healthy Family

Follow Jodi on Instagram

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 

We get to continue our school series today, and this time we are hearing from my guest, Jodi Mockabee. Jodi is the homeschooling mom of five children and author of The Whole and Healthy Family: Helping Your Kids Thrive in Mind, Body, and Spirit. And we're going to talk about each of those areas, so I can't wait to share her insight into homeschooling and parenting. Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jodi.

Jodi Mockabee: Thanks so much for having me, Laura. I'm happy to be here.

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just launch our conversation by sharing your personal testimony? [00:01:19] 

Jodi Mockabee: Sure. I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor, his dad was a pastor. I don't really know when the moment that I knew that God was true and real. It was just a part of my identity from the beginning being raised in that kind of covenant household.

But I do remember from a young age, probably around the age of five, truly experiencing a relationship with God on my own, feeling independent from my family and my parents' beliefs, feeling the Lord move within my heart, stir within my heart. 

I have some really vivid memories of worship in our own church and the Lord just moving my heart from a young age, before you have that critical eye that you look through, so you know that it's real and true. I just remember encounters with God very young, and that is when I definitely devoted my life to Him. [00:02:19] 

I grew up in a healthy family, spiritually and mentally. My dad got diagnosed with brain cancer when I was 10. That kind of threw our whole family for a loop and was a really difficult time for our family. 

I don't think I've ever shared this on a podcast, but it is part of my testimony. When he found out that he had brain cancer, the tumor was the size of a grapefruit. They didn't think he would make it through. And this is back in 1990. The medical treatment wasn't where it is today either. 

But he fell to his knees. He was diagnosed on Valentine's Day, so February 14, 1990. He fell to his knees and he just said, "Lord, please give me just 10 more years so I can see my children grow up, so that I can be a dad in their life." And he died 10 years to that day. 

If that doesn't tell you that there is a loving God who listens to our prayers, then I don't know what does. [00:03:23] He died on Valentine's Day, 2000. We did get 10 years extra with him. Coming so close to death from his perspective, he poured so much into what was important, which was his family. We just got 10 years of an incredible father and mentor, watching him be an amazing husband.

I look back and that was probably my most formative years of just having this incredible mentor in our household. He passed away when I was in college. I met my husband shortly after that.

My husband and I were not really following the Lord closely when we both met. That's another testimony to God's goodness, because it could have gone really bad. Just because we were both in such a bad place, we were not seeking the Lord.

The fact that God is sovereign and knew all along that we were to be each other's helpmates, it still blows my mind that we're still married based on who we were when we met. [00:04:30] That's kind of our testimony.

As the years have progressed and we've added children and our life has gotten messier, all I can say is that the Lord is faithful and good. We've been through some really hard things. The Lord is just so faithful and has managed to just allow us to laugh through a lot of it. I'm just grateful to be here. 

There's so much to be grateful for. I feel like in general, my testimony is just a testimony of gratefulness of God's goodness.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Jodi, thank you so much for sharing that. I was already struck with tears in my eyes within those first few minutes. I am so sorry for the loss of your father. That's never easy, regardless of the age.

Jodi Mockabee: No, no, it's not. I think from an early age, I just learned that nothing's wasted. One of my favorite verses, even before he had died, I believe it's 2 Corinthians 1:1-3. [00:05:31] It talks about the God of comfort and how God comforts us so that we can comfort others. I didn't know how substantial that verse would be in my life until we've encountered really difficult things. To me, just nothing is a true loss because He uses it to comfort others in the kingdom.

There are so many topics that are really awkward for us to handle as believers, you know, on how do you say or how do you respond to things? But I just think nothing's fully lost. It's all to gain in one way or another. So, yes, it was horrible, sad. It's still really sad to know that my dad never knew my kids and my kids never knew my dad. But it's all for God's glory in one way or another. Thank you. That's a really long response.

Laura Dugger: No. 

Jodi Mockabee: I'm so sorry. 

Laura Dugger: No, this is wonderful. [00:06:30] Really, we're just getting a glimpse into the rich spiritual heritage that you had even these men in your life. Going back to your grandfather, even, there's a story that you share in your book. Can you tell us what he taught you about kingdom economy?

Jodi Mockabee: Yes, absolutely. My grandparents were really wonderful, powerful people for the Lord's kingdom. Probably the most selfless people that you would ever know.

They fostered hundreds of kids, adopted kids, just heavily active in the kingdom. They never lived extravagantly. The idea of the quote-unquote American dream just disgusted my grandpa, the white picket fence and the big house and the two kids and all that. That's his opinion. 

But they lived a true life with that. They lived very modestly. They had a small income but gave away everything. [00:07:30] There were many situations where they tried to give to us or did give to us, and we were just so humbled by it, knowing that they made less money than we did. 

I share a story in the book about how twice throughout my grandfather's life, the IRS had to audit him because the numbers didn't make sense when he put in his taxes.  And it always showed that they gave away more than they made. So it was an instant red flag for the IRS. And so twice people had to come to their home to go through, and this was when everything was on paper, so to go through kind of their records and things like that.

And my grandpa, he's a German engineer, very just methodical, kept great accounts of everything. So it's comical that he got audited because he's so careful, very black and white. There's no manipulating the system on his end. [00:08:30] 

And so twice he got audited, twice the people that were sent to do his auditing went through all of the files and recognized that they did, in fact, give more than they made. And both times these people left saved. My grandparents, just by living their lifestyle, were able to add to God's kingdom, just by showing that it is possible to give more than receive.

That is a part of my spiritual heritage. They will always be a great inspiration for what it's like to be stewards, what it's like to give. That story is just a fun one to share because it seems pretty impossible.

Laura Dugger: Yes. And the people walked away with their lives changed knowing Jesus. It's so incredible.

Jodi Mockabee: And the phrase "kingdom economy", I think that has helped teach us that... just like our children, our children are not ours. They're here for us to steward for a short amount of time. [00:09:33] But that's the same with money. Nothing you make or spend is yours.  It's the Lord's money and it all serves a purpose. 

So the kingdom economy, that phrase that they always used was like picturing just this money exchanging hands all for God's glory. You may give, but you'll also be provided for. And they lived so truly to that. They sold their home when they were no longer able to care for it. So they were in their late 80s, maybe early 90s, And they didn't have a retirement or anything like that. Very modest income and were very careful with their money. 

So when they sold their home, they came up with a plan to live on my cousin's property. Everyone that they had blessed in their lifetime came together and built this in-law quarters on my cousin's property. And just watching all these tradesmen work together, doing it from the goodness of their heart, not charging, you know, all the materials, just this whole community kind of pulled together to build this house for these people. [00:10:42] 

And it wasn't like there was some traumatic event that brought them all together. It's just pulling from years of experience of being a part of kingdom economy. 

We tend to fear so much about being provided for, but it's kingdom economy. It all kind of works and floats around. It's got its own currency in a sense that the Lord uses. So that's where that phrase kind of came from.

Laura Dugger: In our series so far, it's been fun to hear the best parts of every schooling option. Now I'm eager to also get to hear your perspective as a homeschooling mother of five. But going back, is that always what you and your husband plan to do for education?

Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely not. We raised our children in the area that I grew up in. I went to a private Christian school, small little Christian school. I had planned on sending my children there. In fact, they started in that school. [00:11:42] Two of my children started in that school. And all of the friends that I had grown up with our community, they all sent their kids to this school. So there was just this beautiful community-based relational experience raising our kids together in this school. 

When the Lord started prompting, when He started kind of challenging us, that threw me for a loop. It was like, wait, what? But you know that I'm selfish Lord. You know, that I like my own time. I like my house clean. And it's not like we were coming from a bad situation where we were fleeing and needed to homeschool. We had a great situation going on. 

So just kind of felt out of left field, to be honest, when we originally felt that stirring. But we dove into the word, we prayed, we sought the Lord, like, "Is this really what you want us to do? And He was so clear through scripture and through just us seeking out counsel from mentors and elders that it was what our family was supposed to do. [00:12:50] So it was not on my radar. I didn't know anything about it before the Lord truly just prompted us to do so.

Laura Dugger: And of the schooling options, I would say that homeschooling provides the most unique schedule. Will you help us understand what type of rhythms or schedule you maintain most weeks?

Jodi Mockabee: Yeah. So probably the first, I want to say two to three months when we started our journey, and I think we're going into our 11th year of homeschooling, the first couple of months, I really thought that I was headed into a certain direction or a philosophy on homeschooling. Since it was spirit-led from the beginning, I was relying on the Lord 100% to help guide us in our homeschooling journey. Because I really didn't know what we were doing.  And thank the Lord He did. 

I remember Him prompting me... I was watching my kids and I was thinking, There's not this like fire in them. They're not excited about this. What do I do? [00:13:51] What do I change in order to make them excited?

And I remember him kind of prompting me like watch for the light in their eyes when they do get excited. So I did. I started paying attention to what they were doing. And what I learned was when I read aloud to them and we discussed the books, they just became alive. I mean, the spark, the twinkle was there, there was so much discussion. Even my two-year-old twins were into it. There was just a lot of unity when we would read aloud together.

So He helped me kind of throw the curriculum out the window and everything that I had relied on in the first few months to make sure that I was doing things quote-unquote, "right". He kind of said, "Ditch it and follow what lights them up." 

That's when I discovered Charlotte Mason, which is literature-based education. You're basically essentially using books to teach your children all the different subjects. [00:14:52] And it's just a very holistic form of schooling. 

So our schedule after those first few months changed to accommodate that type of schooling. So I would say that we are a pretty routine-based family in a lot of things that we do. It seemed kind of natural just to keep that routine going. 

First thing in the morning, we would always get up and run and we continued to do that and continue to do it now. And then after the kids would run, they would do a little bit of independent work, anything that they didn't necessarily need me for. So that would be, you know, math. And if they were readers, they would read on their own for 45 minutes. They would do their own personal Bible devotional. 

Those were all done before breakfast was even made. And we called those our daily disciplines. Those were just daily disciplines that you do on your own and you're responsible on your own to get them done. [00:15:52] Then we would have breakfast. Everyone would kind of make breakfast together. 

After our breakfast, we would do what I call morning collective. And that is where we gather together and I read for anywhere from about an hour and a half to three hours. Typically it's anywhere from four or five books to seven books that I read excerpts from. 

And it starts with the Bible and it ends with whatever I had chosen for that day to end. But all of the different books cover some sort of different subject, you know. So there might be a book on Blaze Pascal. And that kind of covers the history of science and math. We might read a book on morals. So we just had all, all these different books that we would go through. 

What I found too is after morning collective, they would be so inspired by one or two of the books that they would go outside and reenact and recreate what we had just read. [00:17:00] And it opened up all of this kind of organic form of play where they're whittling knives and making necklaces and pretending that they're in the Wild West or whatever it was, whatever book we were reading, they were so inspired by that, that they would kind of recreate it.

Then after a few hours of them playing outside, they'd come back in and we would notebook. That's kind of a process that we created on our own. Notebooking has been out there for a long time, but we really zeroed in on a specific technique of notebook.

That is where they narrate back a choice on their end, unless I assign it of a book that we had read that day. And so they narrate back and then they write about it. And they also illustrate. So we have binders and binders filled with these beautiful illustrations, narrations that are water colored.

I'm just so grateful for the Lord. [00:18:01] I would have never imagined any of that happening, but it truly has created just the most beautiful educational experience in our household. That was 10 years ago that we started that and we're still doing it today.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

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In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on prospect. [00:19:00] 

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Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. [00:20:00] You can also stop by their website at Lemanproperties.com. That's LemanProperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today. 

Laura Dugger: If this is a new concept for someone and they're wondering, well, how much time then are you spending preparing for the next day or where did you find all of these books to cover all the subjects, how would you respond to some of those practical questions?

Jodi Mockabee: I actually wrote manuals. I wrote A Getting Started manual that covers our personal homeschool philosophy. It is truly a combination of Charlotte Mason, Waldorf, Montessori, classical. I've taken kind of the best of all of those and put them together to suit our family's needs. 

And then having five kids, we live pretty simply. So that just kind of translated into our schooling experience too. Everything's about efficiency for me. So it was kind of how do we make it the most beautiful and the most efficient? [00:21:02] 

And I learned that through education, you can simplify so much. There's so much extra busy work in public school, Christian school, homeschool even that is not enriching our children at all. It's just keeping them busy so that we feel like they're learning, but it's just busy work. 

This is why grammar drives me bananas. At any school they start grammar, maybe second grade, you know, where you learn noun, pronoun, all of that stuff. They are still teaching it in college. And the reason why is because the kids forget every single year. 

Well, why do you think they forget? Because there is zero interest. I don't know anyone who has ever fallen in love with the parts of speech. 

But somehow we can put together sentences. Somehow we can write emails yet. They're reteaching this subject over and over and over. [00:22:03] And it's because we can't retain it because we're not interested in it. 

So I just think if you can find where your kids get lit up, focus on that. Of course, they still need to read and write and do math, but you really want to focus on the things that bring light and life into your household, because that's what they're going to retain and hold on to. 

If somebody's looking for help, I do have a website, Jodimockabee.com that has the getting started manual, and it also has the notebooking manual, and it will walk you through schedules and answer to simplifying your homeschool. So that's out there. I'm not trying to sell anything. But if people are interested in finding out kind of how we simplified our schooling and made it beautiful and somehow managed to learn through all of that, then you can kind of check that out.

Laura Dugger: We will put links in the show notes for today's episode so it makes it easy to access your website. [00:23:01] Jodi, you're such an intentional woman. So can you share more ways that you have set up your life in such a way that your entire family pursues wholeness?

Jodi Mockabee: First I probably should give a little disclaimer that I don't think it's ever natural for any member of our family to pursue wholeness. I think our sinful tendencies will always drive us to make more selfish decisions.

I wouldn't say currently that any of my kids naturally are pursuing wholeness. At this moment, you know, I have a 17-year-old, 15-year-old, 13-year-old, and two 11-year-olds. And out of the five, only two diligently choose to wake up and run or work out. The other three, I still have to say, "Let's do our daily discipline." 

So that kind of just gives you an idea that we haven't raised this unicorn family, that they're all disciplined and pursuing wholeness on their own. [00:24:09] It's really about habits and discipline.

Probably it goes back to my heritage. When we were talking about my grandparents, my grandpa ran every day until he 24 hours before he died. So he was a disciplined person and just showed that just methodical little tiny habits throughout the day add up to something.

And so with homeschooling, I would say that's the same thing. You do not need a grand plan with all these boxes to check and everything. But if you can hold on to certain disciplines, you'll just see how they add on to each other.

I think that's kind of how the holistic approach in our family unraveled was noticing that everything's kind of interconnected. So if I can get my family to exercise daily, the attitudes, the countenance of my children is so much happier, so much higher in our household. [00:25:10] 

And then you start noticing, well, if they have eggs for breakfast instead of cereal, they're more grounded. That protein just kind of is exactly what their body needs versus the sugar. So you start making tiny little changes and tweaks to start recognizing how every little decision impacts your family. 

I think ultimately the end goal is peace. Having five children, five under five, it was noisy. There's a lot of needs. I have a son that's on the spectrum. So there was extra needs on his end. So there's always just people tugging for affection and need and help and all of it. 

For me, it was trying to grasp some way to find a peace within our family. So I just started recognizing everything so interconnected, our bodies, our spirits, our minds. And so if we can somehow tweak things to where we're thriving in one or the other, you start noticing where you're not thriving and you want to work on that too. [00:26:17] That's kind of where this whole and healthy family philosophy came from.

Laura Dugger: Yes. I love in your book how you do break down focusing on mind, body, spirit, and then like you said, how they're interconnected and ways that exercise and fitness go hand in hand with moral training. Anything else you would like to add there?

Jodi Mockabee: I don't think so. I think it could be really overwhelming to just see the big picture and think like, where do I start there? And to the mom that kind of knows that maybe there needs to be some changes in our household or something, just start with one habit.

My favorite response from the book is hearing families that the one thing they took from it was the fitness aspect. And they started running together in the morning or going on a walk together in the morning and it changed their entire day. And it does. That's what exercise does. And it doesn't have to be at the gym or a run. I mean, it could be hard work. [00:27:20] It could be working on the garden. It could be putting up a fence together or something. It's just getting those endorphins going, but it really does change your day.

If you can see the effect of a good decision of a new habit being made like that, the rest will unravel itself. So to the mom that's feeling a little bit overwhelmed, just start with one habit and you'll see how much more that gives you. And then you'll want to start on another one.

Laura Dugger: We've had some fantastic guests in this series who have represented the best parts of public school and private education. So now with your experience, what are some of the wonderful aspects of your lifestyle that are specifically available because you're home-educating your children?

Jodi Mockabee: You know, the answer to that will be different every single year. I'll give you my current answer. The early years, the answer would have been it really simplified. [00:28:21] It taught us how to slow down. It taught us how to savor. It built a bond in my children that you just cannot build with limited time together.

We were together all day, every day exploring things together and learning things together. So during that time, I would say it built this just beautiful foundation of learning together and growing together. 

Then I would say right now in this stage that we're at, I've got two high schoolers, one junior higher into an elementary school. I am able to cater to each one of them in such different ways. The early years, we all kind of focused in together on this philosophy and notebook together and did everything together. Now I'm able to see their gifts and their strengths and their weaknesses and build an academic plan based on what they need or what they're good at. [00:29:21] 

My oldest son is very academic. He has been taking college classes for three years. He's a senior this fall and we've been able to just kind of push him academically. He has attended three different colleges. And so if you're in kind of a public school system or even a private school system, you're all about the next step and kind of sticking to that and not quitting. 

Well, homeschoolers are like, no, you do what works for you, what lights the fire, and then when it no longer works, you can switch tactics. And so he's truly an example of that. He started at an engineering school. We did some classes there that really worked with him, but then the trajectory was going to be too intense for a 14-year-old. So then we brought him over to a Christian classical college and he was able to learn rhetoric and some of these subjects that really required higher levels of thinking. [00:30:21] That really stretched him there.

And then we decided let's bring him back to the engineering school. He took some more classes there. And so now this semester, he has decided he wants to learn business and so now he'll be attending a different school where he'll be taking business classes. 

So we have been able to just follow his needs and cater his education accordingly. I love that. I love that he's getting exposure to engineering and STEM, but then also rhetoric and classical education. And now he'll get to learn accounting and marketing strategies. I just think there is no one-size-fits-all-all. And so where homeschooling comes in is you are able to really cater to each of your children's gifts. 

My second son loves working. Since the age of 10, he has had a job. He loves working. He works at a cattle ranch. He knows the ins and outs of everything from shoveling cow poop to artificially inseminating their best cows, you know, sells the bowls. [00:31:28] He's a part of all of it. 

He's able to do that. He's working two, three days a week. And we cater his school towards that by adding extra academics in the other two days but really just being strategic about making sure that he's getting those needs met without being overloaded so that he can work, which is what he loves to do.

So it just shows you that as you grow in homeschooling, you're able to kind of outsource a bunch of things to cater exactly to that child.

Laura Dugger: It sounds like the opportunities are endless in homeschooling, but I also think that we typically hear the most fear arising in people who are parents who are about to try homeschooling for the first time. I think there's more fear there than sending your children to public or private school. I'm sure you get so many of these myths that your children aren't going to be socialized or how are they going to perform academically? [00:32:26] 

Are there any other myths that you've heard or encouragement you could give to the parents who are about to begin homeschooling for their first time?

Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I mean, the Bible says it best. We're the ones to be teaching in the day, all throughout the day. Also, all you need to do is look at history and see that the majority of people have been home-educated.

Public education is a new concept. It's only 150 years old. But you look back thousands of years and children were taught within their homes. I would say, lean into that, know that you're equipped. Kids are remarkable human beings. We are remarkable human beings. We are so capable of learning. 

I never respond well to fluffy encouragement, but I want facts and information. I want to hear studies and numbers and all of that. [00:33:23] So a story will probably speak much better than just me encouraging a mama or a dad who's listening. 

I have a friend born and raised together. She decided to homeschool shortly after we did, you know, 10 years ago, and decided right away that she wanted to take this unschooling path with her daughter. For those who don't know what unschooling is, it's basically being completely hands-off of your child's education. It was a philosophy developed in the 70s. It definitely has a 70s movement style to it because it's all about freedom.

They believe that your child will self-learn and teach themselves whatever they need because it's driven by their own interests. And if they find a love for math, they're going to figure out a way to learn it because it will get them to where they want to be. So that's kind of the source of unschooling is rather than feeding your kids a bunch of information, let them discover it on their own. [00:34:26] And when you own that information yourself, you're going to do much more with it, which I do love a lot of the belief behind the philosophy. 

So, anyways, my friend decides to unschool her daughter. Her daughter's extremely dyslexic so was never able to read up until she took her out of school. I think she took her out of school when she was in third grade. So she still was not reading in the third grade. 

She took her in. She did not do any math. She did not do any reading, any subjects. She let her daughter just listen to audiobooks all throughout the day. She had her daughter help her with her Etsy store. They just kind of did life together. They gardened together. They hiked together. They made food together. There was no schooling going on with this child. 

Well, the mom kind of decides that she's ready for her daughter to go back to school in the eighth grade. [00:35:26] So between the third grade and the eighth grade, this daughter had zero education. Okay. From what we would consider education, you know, the worksheets and the curriculum and everything like that. 

I will say in those years... she's a close friend, so I was able to watch this daughter. This daughter started her own business on Etsy, taught herself multiple skills. Like she taught herself how to sew. She taught herself how to do all these amazing things.

Meanwhile, she's listening to like Pride and Prejudice. I think she even listened to Anna Karenina when she was 12 or something like that, all on audiobooks. Never really wrote that much. She figured out how to write because she started this Etsy business. She figured out math because of this Etsy business. There was no math curriculum. 

So she sends her back to eighth grade and we're all, all the friends are just anticipating what is going to happen. [00:36:28] And she puts her in this very rigorous school and we're just like, "Oh, this poor girl is going to fail and it's going to make homeschooling look bad." That girl made straight A's the entire year. She thrived. 

I feel like that's the biggest win ever because do you know what school is? It's systems. Our brains know how to detect systems very easily. And so as soon as you figure out the system that even math is a series of systems of algorithms of formulas, you know. As soon as you learn how to figure out systems, you can ace it. It's just whether or not you want to. 

This girl with no, what we would call education reentered the world of education and made straight A's. I mean, she got better grades than the kids that had been there since kindergarten. I just think that's a true testimony of we are created to adapt so quickly to whatever environment that we're in. [00:37:36] For those people that think your kid is going to be behind or whatever, they might, but they'll catch up very quickly. It's just part of the human brain. So I wouldn't be too worried about it. 

I talked earlier about formal grammar. We've never done formal grammar in our household. My kids don't know what an adjective is, but my son has been able to go through multiple English classes. I ran into one of his professors and I didn't know her, but she saw him and recognized him. And she came over to me and she said, "He has written a paper that I will never forget. I want to tell you that he's an amazing writer." And I just thought, Good thing I didn't waste my time on grammar and take that love of the written word away from him.

So I don't know. There's a lot to be said on this subject. But I would just say, let's reinvent what you think education is. And it truly is just about learning. [00:38:36] It's not about learning facts or information or systems or anything like that. It's just about learning and walking through life and learning new skills and a lot of problem-solving. And I feel like homeschooling has certainly allowed our kids to learn problem-solving a lot earlier on because mom's not there to provide this crazy system for them. They have to figure things out on their own.

Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at TheSavvySauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox.

Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. [00:39:44] We hope you check out all the available reads at TheSavvySauce.com under the articles tab. 

Jodi, before we pressed record, we were talking about how homeschooling and parenting really overlap. So do you have any other practical tips for parenting and homeschooling that you'd like to share?

Jodi Mockabee: Yeah. I mean, I would say if you can parent, you can homeschool. Homeschooling is just an extension of parenting. It is very relational. It requires habits. And so through habits, that's what we're teaching as parents. 

And I would feel like if you want to encourage yourself or give yourself the tools to succeed with homeschooling, then I would focus on your parenting first. I have a friend who spent an entire year of homeschooling on character development. So she researched a bunch of different books that would really work on character for her own kids so that they would really be able to figure out how to choose the right decisions, how to respect mom. [00:40:49] 

That year was not wasted. It set a foundation for the rest of her schooling journey because they worked so much on the character of their children during that year. 

As far as parenting and homeschooling being interconnected, I would just encourage you to really focus on your parent-child relationship and understand that that's going to carry itself all the way through, that the relationship is going to be connected to the schooling experience for all of you. 

I'll never forget, I was really frustrated — this is probably, I don't know, five years ago or something like that, maybe more — that my kids would... they would huff and puff if I asked them to do something like take the trash out or something like that. And I just kept thinking like, "Oh, these kids are so entitled. When are they going to get gritty?" Why can't they just work hard and put their chin down? They need more adversity. They need to live in the inner city and experience hard things." [00:41:50] 

You know, I like went way far, and I'm sure every parent can relate, to the overthinking of my kids are doomed because we've created soft children or something like that. But in my quest for the answer of this, I searched books about creating grit in children basically. And I came across this book, How Children Succeed. And it totally changed my perspective on creating kids that are headed to success.

I thought for sure it would be adversity. I'm having them do hard things, pushing them, you know, all of that. And it came down to two things: attachment and accountability.

Children who have healthy attachment and healthy accountability, whether it's a parent or a mentor in their life go further. And there's these like studies that they have of these inner city kids in Chicago. They did this whole experiment where they brought mentors into their life and the amount of time that the mentors spent with them. [00:42:55]

So if the mentor was in their life for six months, their socioeconomic status would rise a little bit higher. If the mentor was in their life for a year, their status would rise even higher. They would go from, you know, minimum wage to the next level. And it showed how you can get these kids out of this oppressive system through accountability and attachment. 

He also gives a lot of other examples, but I just thought that is mind-blowing. So this whole time we're thinking that we need to give them this and give them that. And really it comes down to the attachment and the accountability. 

So to break it down from a parental perspective, it would be relationship and mentorship, you know, discipleship. How are you holding your children accountable when they're little looks more like consistency and discipline.

Now we're in these teenage years. It looks a lot like conversations and praying for natural consequences. [00:43:55] Having teens... I don't think it works out well when you have a bunch of rules and you discipline your teens. It just makes sneaky kids in my opinion. 

By the time that they're teens, you want that relationship built so that it's all built on trust and conversation. And so you can talk about sex. You can talk about social media. You can talk about alcohol and drugs and all the things that they're being faced with or that they see their friends doing or any of that. And it's just an open conversation. And so you have that accountability there.

So the early years you work on all of that attachment so that then the accountability is very relational. I don't know if that makes sense, but I would say that's kind of how parenting and homeschooling is interconnected.

Laura Dugger: That's so good. Then even bringing it down to some themes also that you've spoken throughout this time together, just about reading and outdoor play. Is there anything practical you would want to leave us with on those two topics? [00:44:58] 

Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I think creating your home environment is really important if you choose homeschooling. Even if you don't. I know some families that don't homeschool, but you would walk into their home and they have this like healthy learning environment. They have instruments out. They have baskets of books laying around, high-quality art supplies for their kids to dabble with. I call that strewing. 

And so creating this environment where you can leave things out for your children to discover, to discover on their own versus you just, you know, feeding it to them, that connection is so important for them to find something out on their own and take joy and pleasure in it versus you telling them, "This is what it is. Now go use it." There's such a different mental process for a kid to explore something on their own.

I think creating a home environment where you allow your children to have access to these things, to art supplies, to books, to instruments, you never know what's going to take on a new interest for them. [00:46:06] So that would be kind of one part. 

The play aspect is just, you want to leave a lot of margin for your children to play and discover. It depends on the age of your child, but in the earlier years, ours, I think our schedule for the day allowed for at least five hours of outdoor play. 

So there would be some time after lunch where they got about two hours of outdoor play. And then sometime after notebooking where they would play. We chose during those years not to do any organized activities, no gymnastics, no sports, because we felt that play and time together would benefit them much more than all of these outside-of-the-home activities.

I don't know if that's a one-size-fits-all for all families, but I know it allowed our kids to really explore each other and in the environment and nature. And they just were able to use everything they learned in school. [00:47:06] I'm thinking of the book Island of the Blue Dolphins. 

We had read that years and years ago. And I remember walking outside to see the kids, they had set up a camp and they had their pocket knives and they were whittling and they started a fire. We had this mud kitchen area with a fire ring that they were allowed to start campfires and cook food on. They made it all happen. I didn't have to create any of that for them. The book set up the scene and they went and made it their own.

But they wouldn't have had that if they had to go to a sports practice or to gymnastics or something like that. So that wide open time to just play and explore and discover is I think essential in the early years.

In the later years, this is where it gets a little trickier and you just spend a lot of time on your knees, praying for guidance for the Lord to just really help you figure out what's best for your kids developmentally as they become teenagers. [00:48:08] 

For us, it shifted a lot of what our family did. So we started doing some sports for the boys to get that testosterone out to physically push themselves further to be a part of a team. And so it started looking different. But I took my son out to dinner last night, my oldest son, he's 17, and we just had the best time talking about... he started telling me some of the things that happened when I wasn't outside when they were little, you know, catching snakes, making bombs, like all these things that mom did not want to know about.

And it was the most delightful conversation, even though now we have probably more of a typical family involved in sports and doing these things. He's an avid rock climber. He is outside all the time. He chooses to go on hikes. If he can't get friends to go with him, he'll go by himself. He's just the most incredible kid who has such a thirst for adventure. [00:49:11] And I think that comes from the foundation of hours and hours of creative play where there was not a lot of activities that were on the calendar. So that's a long-winded answer, but hopefully somebody got something from that.

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I think you're illustrating how play is that higher form of learning. One time you summarized it so well when you just said, "Exhausted children equal better-behaved children." And it sounds like that applies to many ages.

Jodi Mockabee: It does. We've even discovered, even as teenagers, idle time is... what do they say? Idle time is the devil's work. With teenagers, we have found that they have got to stay actively busy. Otherwise, you know, I have two kids with phones now, they'll just sit on the couch and be on their phone. 

They need to be busy. They need to be working. They need to be hiking. They need to be involved in things. Keeping them busy and physically tired makes them sleep well at night. They're not up all night on phones or video games or whatever.  [00:50:18] It all has a purpose. And starting young just sets you on the trajectory to making those choices and letting them see that when they're older.

One of my boys took on a second job because he just realized I have too much free time. Like, "I'm not getting as many hours as I wanted in this one job, so I'm going to take on another job because I don't want to sit around and be bored all day." So it's just fun to watch them figure that out on their own, that they need to be more active so that they sleep well and wake up and do the same thing the next day.

Laura Dugger: That's so fascinating to see that pattern, too, and that wisdom in leaving margin when they're younger to be active. And yet that turns into filling it wisely as they progress toward adulthood. 

Jodi, as we start to wind down this conversation, for any parents who are just trying to decide after hearing all these options and they're looking into which school option is best for their family, will you just share a few more of your favorite reasons to recommend that they consider home educating their children? [00:51:26] 

Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I think first and foremost, probably the time that you have with your children, that beyond academics, you have the ability to disciple your children from such an early age and do it throughout the years and put things into their heart that you wouldn't have the opportunity to do in the small window of time that you get when they're home from school. 

The other would be the flexibility to go and learn and explore and be more hands-on in life. You can travel, you can hike, you can discover, you can do museums. Wherever you're living, you can take advantage of so much more because you have the freedom to do that. 

We don't love large groups of people. We don't enjoy doing much in the summertime as far as camping or anything like that because there are so many people doing it. But homeschooling allows you, as soon as school starts, you have the museums to yourself, you have the camp spots to yourself, you have so much more peace because you can choose to be flexible with that. [00:52:33] The flexibility has been another one that I just wouldn't trade for the world.

Then the sibling relationships, that again comes down to time. And they're spending so much time together and they're building so many memories together. There is just something really special about learning alongside of each other. 

I think about what that does when moms go to conferences together or something like that. Essentially, they're doing the same thing. They're learning alongside of one another. There's a bonding that happens when you're opening your mind to learning. Imagine what that does with your children as siblings. That's a lot of just special memories and bonding going on there. Definitely for the sibling relationships.

Then the last one I would say is just the content that you are able to share with your children. It is incredible how you can bring in morality and character into nearly every book that you read. [00:53:34] There are so many lessons to be learned through history and through other people's stories. 

Learning together alongside one another and being able to highlight the good and the bad. That doesn't mean hiding them from tragedy or anything like that. We've studied some really hard topics in our family, but what a privilege for me to be the one that creates the narrative behind that story.

I don't want somebody else with their own bias or their own political or moral perspective, I don't want them telling my kids what to think about that. I want to open up the conversation, ask my kids what they think about it. What does the Bible say about it? What does the Lord think about that? Being able to cater the books that you read, your education to the highest moral ground, which would be the Bible, God's word, is by far probably the most important part of homeschooling. [00:54:34] 

I hope that has given enough tools for people to, if they have it on their heart, I don't believe that everybody should homeschool, but if you have it on your heart, if the Holy Spirit is prompting you to do it, then just to encourage you that there are so many benefits to it.

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. You have shared so much goodness with us. Can you remind us where we can go after this chat to continue learning more from you?

Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I have my book, The Whole and Healthy Family. And that is not a homeschooling book. It's more about our story as parents in the early years. You can get that book if you'd kind of to learn a little bit about our habits and systems and just hear our family's story. You can go to my website, JodiMockabee.com. 

I never intended to sell curriculum or anything, but through my Instagram page, which is just @JodiMockabee, I would get so many questions about how we did things or how to find those resources or what our schedule is, or all the homeschooling questions that I ended up just creating studies and these manuals. [00:55:47] 

Even we put a lot of our scripture to song, and so I started recording us singing scripture for memorization, and we sell that on the site. It's all just because it's what we've done, and we just decided to allow other people to have the opportunity to take part in the same stuff and be able to benefit a little bit from that and continue on camping and skiing and doing all the things that we do as we share kind of our homeschooling world with other people. So that's on JodiMockabee.com. That will give you all kinds of resources to be able to set up a kind of holistic homeschool.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Again, we will link to all of this in the show notes for today's episode. Jodi, you're familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:56:46] 

Jodi Mockabee: Okay, so I feel like I, you know, biblically should say reading my Bible. But I hope that just goes without question, that time with the Lord is always a good thing to do and will put your mind in the right spot, and your heart in the right spot. But I would say as a family, our getting up in the morning and going on a run, that's probably our savvy sauce. It just shakes all the cobwebs out. It starts our day. Everyone is awake and alert and tired.

You mentioned it yourself, but tired kids are good kids. So it just starts the whole family off on the right foot so that then we can focus on the Word and learning and being together. Our countenance is just a little higher because of it.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Well, Jodi, I've read and enjoyed your book, and now I've had a blast getting to chat with you today. [00:57:47] You are so inspiring and just delightful to be with. So thank you for being my guest.

Jodi Mockabee: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. This was really fun, and hopefully, we can do it again.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:58:49] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:59:49] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [01:00:49] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.