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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Nov 06, 2023
Monday Nov 06, 2023
*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears.
**Transcription Below**
215. Enriching Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
Hosea 4:6a (KJV) "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge,"
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- What type of sexual dysfunctions are common for your clients to experience?
- What all can you teach us about hormones?
- Will you educate us on hormone therapy?
Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities. Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life.
Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society’s new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being.
In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.
Websites Mentioned:
Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website
North American Menopause Society
Women's Sexual Health Information
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Dr. Kris Christiansen is a sexual medicine specialist, and we are fortunate to have her as a guest today to share about sexual intimacy and the role of hormones. She will also offer solutions to common issues that arise in this area of marriage.
Here's our chat. [00:01:18]
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Christiansen.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, thank you so much, Laura, and it is a pleasure to be here. I'm honored to be part of your program.
Laura Dugger: Will you just start by telling us a bit more about yourself and how you ended up in this somewhat unique career?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: It is a unique career. Well, I'm a family physician, and I practiced full-spectrum family medicine for about 10 years before all this happened. Now, I delivered babies and took care of children and adults of all ages, but I always kind of felt unsettled, like there was something else for me and really didn't know what that was.
I prayed to the Lord that he would give me direction where to go, what to do, you know, because after going through medical school and all that time, it's hard to think about change. But what happened was that my husband and I joined a small group on marriage in our church, and we were going through the book, Love & Respect by Emerson Eggerich, which is a great book. [00:02:28] But that first week we met, the leaders asked if anyone wanted to lead a particular chapter. And I'm thinking, "Well, you know, I'm working full-time, I got two small kids, my plate is full, I don't need to add one more thing."
But wouldn't you know that my husband raised his hand and said, "We'll do the one on sex." I thought, "What in the world are we going to talk about?" Because, you know, we could have used a little help in that area too.
So I went to the local Christian bookstore because I had to get books, you know, I always have to rely on something. Our library grew quite a bit after that trip, which was kind of fun. I had prepared this talk knowing that it wasn't going to be much of a discussion in the small group setting because nobody wants to talk about it.
With that opportunity, it was a fun group. And then later, the leaders of our women's ministry asked if I would do that same talk at our women's retreat. [00:03:38] I go to a small church, so here we have, what, 50 women, basically sitting on the edge of their chairs, eyes wide open, taking notes about everything that God had inspired me to talk about.
So through that, he just opened my eyes and what a huge need we have in terms of sex and marriage, because we often don't talk about it. There were several things that happened after that where God just opened key doors. I was able to get training in this area. And then a few years later, this is what I do for my sub-specialty. And it's very rewarding.
Laura Dugger: I love to hear that. Then I'm curious, what type of sexual dysfunctions are most common for your clients to experience?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Well, I see both men and women, and they have a host of things going on. [00:04:41] As far as female sexual problems go, the most common one is low libido. But sexual dysfunction is usually categorized into four different domains: libido, pain, arousal, and orgasm problems. Women rarely have just one problem. They have two or more of these issues, and each one affecting the other.
A common scenario is for a woman, often in her middle years, but I've seen young women, in their late teens, early 20s. My oldest patient was a man who's 95. Yeah. And I have a handful of 80-year-old women in my practice. It's actually quite fun.
But the common scenario for women, low libido, decreased sexual desire. The root problem is usually not just low libido, it's often associated with other underlying problems, like pain, or decreased arousal, or that difficulty with orgasm. [00:05:47]
So sometimes the low libido is just due to the brain's neurochemicals being a little off-balance, kind of like depression. You know, depression isn't necessarily due to a specific situation, but our brain chemicals are just a little out of whack. In that case, there's no specific external factor contributing to the low desire. It's as if somebody just turned off the switch. And no matter how many date nights, glasses of wine, or vacations she may take, she just doesn't have the desire to engage in sexual intimacy. And it can be really distressing for her, and hard on the relationship. So it's also a matter of trying to figure out what else is contributing to it.
Pain is a very, very common concern. And there are so many things that can cause pain. I see a lot of women who've been to several doctors and other providers who basically just brush them off, say, you know, again, have a glass of wine, relax, use more lubricant, and you'll be fine. [00:06:55] But no matter how much lubricant they use, it's still going to hurt. And then if they have that low desire, along with pain, it's just really not going to help.
One of the common causes of pain in pre-menopausal women is birth control. Hormonal birth control like pills, you know, birth control pills, the patch, or NuvaRing, they can have a significant impact.
Now, most women tolerate those birth control pills just fine and don't have any problems. But there are a few who experience very significant side effects from these medications. We know that birth control can cause low libido and pain, decreased arousal, and problems with orgasm, because the contraception affects their hormones. These pills significantly decrease our own body's estrogen and testosterone, and that has a huge impact. [00:07:53]
I've seen many young women who have so much pain that they are unable to tolerate any kind of vaginal penetration. I mean, not even a tampon, let alone have intercourse. So these women are in loving, stable relationships, and they really want to be intimate with their husband, but they just can't because of the pain. So you can imagine what impact that has on the relationship.
So if we just stop the pills, it helps, but it doesn't necessarily resolve the pain because these vulvar tissues have undergone changes, often like menopause, and usually needs to be treated with a hormone cream to restore these tissues.
These women also have very tight pelvic floor muscles, which contributes to the pain, and then pelvic floor physical therapy can be helpful. So before sending them off to PT, though, we'd like to heal up their vulvar tissues so PT has the best benefit for them. [00:08:52]
As women age, our estrogen levels fall during perimenopause and menopause, and those low estrogen levels contribute to a similar issue with vaginal dryness and painful intercourse. So very similar situation to what women experience with birth control pill problems.
As for men, the most common concern is erectile dysfunction. ED is really common. We know that ED can affect 40% of men in their 40s, 50% of men in their 50s, 60% of men in their 60s, and so on. So by the time he's 95, he probably does need a little extra help.
Our patients have usually tried at least one medication like Viagra or Cialis before they come to see us, but unlike those old commercials used to imply, the oral medications are only effective in about 60% of men, not 100%.
So we offer other treatment options besides just the oral medications, and we also encourage healthy lifestyle habits like adhering to a healthy diet and getting adequate sleep, which is so important, quitting smoking, limiting alcohol, and getting regular exercise because all of these things can be helpful. [00:10:08]
Bottom line, if someone has concerns about their sexual function, they should first talk to their primary care provider. If that doesn't help, then seek out a sexual medicine provider because we are out there, and we're there to offer hope.
Laura Dugger: Wow, I'm just in awe of all of your knowledge and the way you succinctly articulate all of this. Just a follow-up question, is it true that women who are nursing can sometimes experience those same side effects as someone who is in menopause?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: That is absolutely true. We know that during pregnancy, estrogen levels rise, so they're relatively high throughout the pregnancy, which is great. Women often feel much better when they're pregnant. And then as soon as that baby is born and when you're breastfeeding, estrogen levels plummet, and they are really, really low, just like menopause. [00:11:09] And you throw in a few other hormones like prolactin, which also decreases sexual desire, it makes sexual function a little challenging in that postpartum period. Sometimes a little vaginal estrogen can be helpful for pain, but also know that it will get better.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi Family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity.
Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. [00:12:11] They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple “Welcome to Sam Lemans”. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.
I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.
Learn more at their website, Lemanyureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for “Sam Leman in Eureka”. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: For the male's side, I'm sure erectile dysfunction, it's too broad to give simplistic reasons, but when you say 60% of men in their 60s and so on, is that often due to the decrease in testosterone that men experience, or is it often related to circulation and their heart health, or are there any other main reasons? [00:13:23]
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yes, there are a lot of reasons. Men and women, our testosterone levels kind of decrease, maybe 1 to 2% per year, so not huge amounts, so that, you know, the decreased testosterone does impact erections. But even more importantly, it's all these other factors, like age and the wear and tear on the blood vessels, and things that can impact erectile function, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, smoking, diabetes, and being overweight. So the better that we can control all of those factors, the better the blood flow and the better the erections.
Laura Dugger: This is a rather broad question, but hormones clearly affect us in so many ways. So, Dr. Kris, what all can you teach us about hormones?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Hormones affect absolutely everything. In women, there are three important sex steroids or hormones. I use steroid and hormone interchangeably. But there's estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. [00:14:33] And we think of estrogen for women and testosterone for men, but both sexes need both hormones.
Women need a little testosterone and men need a little bit of estrogen for their bones. So, for women, we have about 10% of the amount of testosterone that men do, and we need that 10% for sure. It has such an impact on energy and libido and arousal, lubrication, and all those really good things.
Likewise, estrogen has a huge impact on just about every body part. It also impacts sleep, our cognitive abilities, our mood, and definitely the sexual function.
The ovaries start producing estrogen in puberty, and our ovaries continue this production until menopause. There may be some breaks like with breastfeeding, but during our reproductive life, estrogen levels fluctuate throughout the menstrual cycle, and they're highest at the time of ovulation. [00:15:38] And we also know that testosterone levels increase a little bit around that time, which then increases desire. So, you know, it's God's way of helping families to continue to multiply and grow.
So at least around that time of ovulation, libido increases. After ovulation, estrogen levels decrease, and progesterone levels increase. So if conception doesn't occur, then the progesterone levels drop in the experience of period.
When progesterone levels increase, some women may feel a little or a lot more irritable, which is that contributing factor to PMS. For others, progesterone can have a calming effect. Actually taking progesterone as a medication in perimenopause, and menopause can help with sleep, which is kind of nice.
So estrogen affects pretty much every organ in the body. In the brain, it affects our body temperature adjustment. In the perimenopause, menopause years, when our estrogen levels fall, that's when those hot flashes occur. [00:16:42]
It can also affect memory function, learning, language. Sometimes in perimenopause, with those fluctuating estrogen levels, we might have some word-finding problems, trouble making decisions, and just experiencing some brain fog.
Estrogen affects our skin, has to do with elasticity, and has an anti-aging effect. It affects our bones, which has to do with bone strength and bone density. So when estrogen levels fall after menopause, you have an increased risk of thinning bones, osteoporosis, and fractures, unfortunately. So it's important to take that calcium to keep your bones strong.
Estrogen also affects our liver, and that's where the cholesterol production is regulated. So some women experience increasing levels of cholesterol after menopause once those estrogen levels fall.
It also has cardioprotective effects before menopause. [00:17:42] You know, the Women's Health Initiative study, way back, you know, 20 years ago, we used to think that every woman should be on estrogen after menopause because it protects the heart. And that is true when we start estrogen prior to menopause, but after menopause, unfortunately, has the opposite effect and can increase the risk of heart attacks.
Estrogen affects our ovaries, and that's where we get the egg maturation release every month, giving you a period or a pregnancy. And the effect on the uterus, it's monthly preparation for pregnancy in pre- and perimenopausal women. So in perimenopause, if you're still getting a period, even if it's irregular, you could still, fortunately or unfortunately, get pregnant.
Then there's testosterone. Testosterone is really important for both men and women. And like I said, women have about 10% of the amount of testosterone that men do, but we need that because it affects things like libido and lubrication, arousal, and orgasm. [00:18:47] It also helps with energy, mood, and concentration.
Fun fact, women have more testosterone than estradiol or estrogen throughout our lives, and people don't realize that. In our reproductive years, the average level of estradiol is 150 picograms per milliliter. That's just the measurement. During those same reproductive years, we have on average 400 picograms per milliliter of testosterone. 150 versus 400. Who knew?
Laura Dugger: Hmm.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yeah. After menopause, estrogen levels fall. So after menopause, estrogen levels are in the 10 to 15 picograms per milliliter range, whereas testosterone is about 290. Again, much, much higher. When women have their ovaries removed with surgical menopause, estrogen levels are quite low, but that also drops our testosterone levels down to 110 instead of 290. [00:19:57] So our ovaries are efficient little hormone factories.
As for men, we know testosterone is really important for them. It affects their mood, concentration, libido, sexual function, muscle mass, strength, endurance, and bone health. If men have low testosterone, they may experience low energy, decreased stamina, decreased libido, trouble with their erections, and trouble with orgasm.
Many of these problems are common and nonspecific. So they might experience these issues and still have normal testosterone levels. So just because they have decreased energy or decreased stamina doesn't automatically mean that their testosterone levels are low. We only want to go about treatment if they have low testosterone levels because there are risks and side effects associated with it.
People often ask how we can maximize our healthy functioning throughout our lives. [00:21:01] Well, it all has to do with just basically taking really good care of ourselves. We should eat a healthy, well-balanced diet with lots of fruits and vegetables, minimize processed foods, and get adequate sleep, which usually means somewhere between seven to nine hours a night.
If we're not getting enough sleep, we're not getting that restoration, and it can definitely impact especially testosterone levels. We also recommend exercising regularly. CDC recommends 150 minutes per week. Maintaining a healthy weight is also really important. We want to drink plenty of water, minimize sugary drinks, and minimize alcohol too.
Other things to avoid: tobacco, vaping, excess alcohol, and drugs. We also want to try to minimize stress and have a healthy way of coping with stress because we know problems occur, stress occurs, but if we have a healthy way of dealing with that, it can have a positive impact. [00:22:04]
As a medical provider, you need to see your medical provider, your family doctor, or internist for routine preventative care. It's really, really important. Much better to prevent problems than to treat them because those problems then lead to effects on our sexual function and our hormone levels.
There are no specific foods, drinks, or supplements that help with hormones. People ask all the time, what if I take this or what can I eat? Again, it just comes down to the bottom line of eating a healthy diet with lots of fruits and vegetables.
I want to caution your listeners about all those supplements that are out there. These supplements, they can make all kinds of claims and promises for miraculous results, but they usually don't have any scientific basis for these claims and they're not regulated by the FDA. So there's no guarantee that what they say on the label is actually in the capsule or pill that they're taking. [00:23:09]
There can be ingredients and even medications that are not reported on the label, and these can interact with current medications. So it can actually be dangerous. So I caution my patients to save their money and try to stay away from those supplements that make all kinds of crazy promises.
Laura Dugger: There is an exciting project taking place behind the scenes right now, and I would love to invite you to participate. I will give you more details as I'm able, but for now, here's my request. Will you email me your personal story of a specific way God has clearly shown up in your life?
Big or small, I want to hear an account of the way he made Himself known to you and maybe received credit for an answered prayer, or a way He worked out a situation in a miraculous way, or how he displayed His power in your life. There's no limit to the type of story to submit, as long as it's true. So please email me your story at this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. [00:24:15] I can't wait to read your story. Thanks for sharing.
Just as you're sharing these ways to be healthy and how much that affects everything, even our sex lives in marriage, it just makes me think of self-control, which is a fruit of the Spirit. God has laid out these lifestyle rhythms that are healthy and support everything. So from my understanding, testosterone is replenished after sleep. And even when we engage in sex, we then produce more testosterone. Is that correct?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yes. Testosterone levels rise during sleep. So they're highest in the morning and lowest in the evening. This is especially true for men, less so for women. And if we don't get that restorative sleep, our body just can't reproduce or replenish that testosterone, which is really important. [00:25:17]
As for increasing levels after sex, maybe a little bit, but not a huge amount. Sex and orgasm definitely increases other hormones like oxytocin and dopamine, norepinephrine, which is all great stuff. But the increase in testosterone after sex, it's probably negligible.
Laura Dugger: Okay, that's helpful clarification. Now that we've kind of discussed this role of hormones, will you also educate us on hormone therapy?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Hormone therapy is the treatment of menopausal symptoms with estrogen and or progesterone. It can be started during perimenopause when you start having those symptoms. And it can be really helpful during that time. It's also really safe.
It was previously called HRT or hormone replacement therapy. But in the last few years, this terminology has been changed to MHT or menopause hormone therapy. [00:26:24] Because we're not trying to necessarily replace everything. We're just trying to address those symptoms, which can be really bothersome for some women.
In 2002, this study came out, the Women's Health Initiative, which was a huge study, like 60,000 women, average ages of 50 to 79. It was that study that scared all women off their hormones, and it scared doctors from using or prescribing it for the next 20 years, which is where we're at now. The pendulum is starting to swing a little bit and we still have a little ways to go.
This study, unfortunately, did women a huge disservice because they were starting older women, women in their 60s, 70s, and even 80 on estrogen. And we don't do that now because we know that the risk with estrogen does go up when we start those hormones in older women, which is over the age of 60. [00:27:29] And so if we started prior to the age of 60 and within 10 years of menopause, there are a lot of benefits to it and minimal risk.
This study, the Women's Health Initiative, we call it the WHI, you know, it's been analyzed and re-evaluated a number of times. So we've been able to come to terms with some of these issues. The benefits of estrogen, when we start them within 10 years of menopause and before age 60, it's one of the best treatments that we have for hot flashes and night sweats.
It can help with sleep in perimenopause and menopause. It also helps with urinary tract symptoms. It helps with sexual function and improves our skin. Remember, it has that anti-aging effect.
Other benefits. Studies show that there is a decreased risk of developing diabetes, improved blood sugar control if you do have diabetes. [00:28:29] It's great for bone health. It prevents bone loss and reduces fracture risk. There's also like a 30% decreased risk of colorectal cancers.
It's also great for your brain. Women who start estrogen earlier on, again, within 10 years of menopause, before age 60, have a decreased risk of Alzheimer's. It's good for the mood. It may help with depression and perimenopause and improve well-being. There are several studies that show a reduced risk of heart disease when we start it early on, too.
So lots of good things. We do have to be careful because there are potential risks. And the risks increase when we start estrogen in older women, older than 60 or more than 10 years after menopause. With that, it carries the increased risk of gallstones, blood clots, cardiovascular events like heart attacks and strokes, and potentially breast cancer. [00:29:29]
But there was a study published just this past year on looking at whether estrogen really does cause breast cancer. It compared 40,000 women with breast cancer and 400,000 women who did not. And through this study, bottom line was that estrogen did not increase the risk of breast cancer, which is amazing.
Let me say that again. Estrogen did not increase the risk of breast cancer. What they did find increase the risk was synthetic progesterone, which is like Provera. And with that, slight increased risk. However, if we use a so-called bioidentical form of progesterone, which is Prometrium, it's the same structure as our own body's progesterone, there was no increased risk. Again, bottom line, estrogen did not increase breast cancer in that study. [00:30:33]
Other risks with estrogen is that if women still have their uterus, you know, no hysterectomy, they do have to take progesterone. Again, we want to take that bioidentical one because the progesterone protects against uterine cancer. Unopposed estrogen, meaning no progesterone, can thicken the lining of the uterus and that can lead to cancer. But taking the progesterone eliminates that risk. Just like we talked about, the safest type of progesterone is micronized progesterone. Prometrium is the brand name.
As women get older, you know, they have changes such as vaginal dryness and thinning of the tissues and other problems that we call genitourinary syndrome of menopause. And if it's just the vaginal symptoms that we're treating, vaginal estrogen is highly effective and extremely safe.
So vaginal estrogen is a cream and it just acts locally. [00:31:34] It doesn't have the systemic effect like pills and patches do. It most definitely does not cause breast cancer, heart attacks, strokes, or blood clots.
But if you get a prescription for this vaginal estrogen and you read the package insert, unfortunately it lists these risks of breast cancer and heart attacks and dementia and all kinds of crazy things. But the drug companies take the risks associated with systemic estrogen, that's the pills and the patches that increase our blood levels, and they apply that same risk to the vaginal treatments. It's a class effect. This is not the case.
I want to emphasize this is not the case because vaginal estrogen is really, really safe and it can basically be used until you die. There's no reason you have to go off it unless you do get breast cancer, which was not caused by the cream. But for that, you probably have to go off it for at least a period of time. [00:32:34] If you don't want to use that vaginal estrogen, then there are over-the-counter vaginal moisturizers, which if used regularly and consistently every few days, it can be helpful.
Laura Dugger: Wow, Dr. Chris, I have never heard this WHI analyzed so well. I'm just thinking of a few, I'm gonna paraphrase, just a few scriptures off the top of my mind where the Lord talks about my people, I think he says perish for lack of knowledge. That is so unfortunate that women have been given this disservice with this lack of knowledge. And yet in your unique career you are helping set captives free. Because when you're captive to insomnia and hot flashes and all these unpleasant symptoms, that is incredible that we have healthy and safe options available.
Just to clarify, so when women start over the age of 60, that can have adverse effects. [00:33:36] But these same women, if they started prior to that or within 10 years of menopause, then you're saying they even continue after age 60 and it's still safe if they started before that?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: That is true. And that's what the more current research findings are reporting. Unfortunately, if a woman goes to her doctor and having, you know, hot flashes and night sweats and not sleeping, the majority of medical providers aren't always on top of all this more recent information. So doctors are still afraid to prescribe estrogen.
And if you start it early on when it's really helpful and actually protects against all kinds of great things, or protects against bad things actually, it is safe to continue. But the guidelines from years ago say only use the lowest dose for the shortest amount of time needed, you know, try to get off it within five years. [00:34:41] That's still in most providers' minds what they should recommend, but that's not the case.
After age 60 or 65, the North American Menopause Society, they say it's an ongoing conversation between a patient and her provider talking about the risks versus the benefits. And if you continue it, and it's important to get your mammogram every year, it's safe to continue as long as you don't have a heart attack in the meantime or a stroke. That would be reasons to have to stop estrogen.
Laura Dugger: You're also saying estrogen and progesterone, those you would want to start together, is that right, at the same time?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: If you still have your uterus, you have to take progesterone, yes.
Laura Dugger: And at what age approximately would you recommend that?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Recommend starting it?
Laura Dugger: Yes. [00:35:40]
Dr. Kris Christiansen: When a woman starts having symptoms. I'm a fan of starting it in perimenopause when those hot flashes start, because it can just be so helpful and protective for the heart and the brain and good things. Some doctors, though, may not want to start it until the woman is officially menopausal, which is 12 months after her last period. Bottom line, when a woman is experiencing symptoms, hot flashes, night sweats, brain fog, that would be an ideal time to start hormone therapy.
Laura Dugger: Okay, thank you for that. I'm also curious, because you said a lot of providers are not aware of this, and I would say probably the general population is not aware of this. So where are some trusted places where you do find this information, or how do you stay current with sexual health and medicine? [00:36:43]
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Things are changing all the time. Medicine changes all the time and so staying current is important. I think one of the best places to find information on menopause and hormones is going to the NAMS, North American Menopause Society website, which is menopause.org.
Laura Dugger: Okay, wonderful. We'll put a link to that in our show notes for today's episode.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Another great website, which is up and coming, is called PROSAYLA.com, P-R-O-S-A-Y-L-A. This is a website that is directed to the patient people, not providers, but providers can learn a lot from that too. It is supported by ISSWSH, the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health. So that's like my AMA, American Medical Association. [00:37:43]
ISSWSH has this new website, just came live last year, that has all kinds of great articles that are based on science. I am on the committee that started this. I wrote a couple of articles that are on the website, and that's where people can go to find absolutely reliable information. I'm passionate about this, as you can tell.
Laura Dugger: Yes, well it's so good. I think clearly you just have an abundance of wisdom to share with us. There's still so much more that I want to hear about low sexual desire and orgasm. And just hear you explain perimenopause and menopause, just so many more topics. But we are out of time for today, so can we pause this conversation here and pick it up next week?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Absolutely. Yes, no, I would love to chat with you again, Laura. This has been great.
Laura Dugger: Okay, wonderful. We will pause for now, but until we meet again next week, could you provide your website where listeners could go to find out more about you in the meantime? [00:38:52]
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Yes. I actually started a business called Intimate Focus, and the website is Intimate-Focus.com. So with this business, I wanted to provide a place where women and couples can learn more about sexual health, sexual wellness, and purchase quality products to enhance their sex lives. In my medical practice, I often recommend getting a good lubricant or a vibrator, which can help with stimulation. But so many women are often reluctant to go to an adult store, for obvious reasons, or order something from Amazon, because of all the data that gets collected, and it shows up on your previous purchases and such.
So I wanted to provide a safe place to do this, and God has definitely planted this on my heart. My medical specialty and this business are part of my ministry, because I want to help educate and empower women and take away the shame associated with sex.
I believe that sexual health, function, and pleasure are God's given gifts, and we should be able to enjoy sexual intimacy throughout our lives. [00:40:04] However, as we discussed, you know, there are a lot of factors that can impact sexual function, and people need to know that there is help available.
So from the website, Intimate-Focus.com, you can purchase items which will be mailed in a discreet box, and the business name is IGH Focus, not Intimate Focus, so no one's going to suspect anything crazy. I will also be adding a page of resources and information where there are going to be more scientific-based articles and other information.
Again, Intimate-Focus.com, and if you click on the contact button, it gives you a form to fill out for an email, and that just comes right to me. So I would love to hear from you.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add all of these links to the show notes for today's episode, and I look so forward to continuing this conversation next week. So thank you for being my guest.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me, Laura. This has been great. [00:41:05]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:42:05] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:43:04]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:44:07] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 23, 2023
Monday Oct 23, 2023
Special Patreon Re-Release: Parenting Different Personality Types with Dale Wilsher
“Train up a child in the way he should go [teaching him to seek God’s wisdom and will for his abilities and talents], Even when he is old he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6 (Amp)
Dale Wilsher is a professional life and strength coach, a DISC personality trainer, and the author of What’s Your Mom Type? Discovering God’s Design for You. She’s the parent of four daughters, ranging in age from 16-23, and newly married to her husband, Jeff. You can find her at www.DaleWilsher.com , www.YourAuthenticPersonality.com , and www.DaleWilsherConsulting.com
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
What’s Your Mom Type? by Dale Wilsher
Author Mentioned: David Benner
The Savvy Sauce Additional Episodes on Personality:
Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord
Deep Dive into the Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Oct 16, 2023
Monday Oct 16, 2023
214. School Series (Legal) Gospel Sharing During School Hours with Joel Penton
**Transcription Below**
John 17:20-21 (NLT) "“I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me."
Joel Penton is the Founder and CEO of LifeWise Academy, a program that provides Bible education to public school students during school hours. After its launch in 2019, LifeWise has quickly grown to serve more than 300 schools across the US.
Before starting LifeWise Joel founded other nonprofits including Stand For Truth and Relevant Speakers Network, an organization that has touched more than 3,000 public schools and 2 million students nationwide. As a speaker, Joel has presented to more than 2,000 live audiences and over 1,000,000 people across the country. He is also the author of three books.
Joel is a graduate of THE Ohio State University where he played football on three Big Ten Championship teams and one National Championship team for the Buckeyes. Joel lives in Columbus Ohio with his wife, Bethany, and their five children.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
What is the single greatest missed opportunity to impact our next generation of public school students?
-
Historically, public school students used to have religious and moral teaching as part of their expected schooling . . . how has this broken down over time?
-
What positive impact do you see religious education having on students and on schools?
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
Today is the conclusion of our school series. I hope you've enjoyed hearing from all of these fabulous educators, and I pray you have clarity and confidence to discern what form of education God is leading you to choose for your family at this time.
Joel Penton is my guest today. He is an author and founder of LifeWise Academy, which is a program that provides Bible education to public school students during school hours. After reading his book entitled During School Hours, I was shocked and pleasantly surprised to discover this process is legal. [00:01:23] Joel is going to share all the details.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Joel.
Joel Penton: Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: Well, it would be great to get to know you a little bit better first, so will you tell us a bit about yourself?
Joel Penton: Absolutely. So I am from a small town in northwest Ohio called Van Wert, Ohio. Met my wife at college when she and I attended The Ohio State University. We were both athletes there. I played some football for the Buckeyes. My wife was a gymnast. We got married while we were still in school. Just couldn't wait.
After time at Ohio State, we went into full-time ministry, spent a dozen years traveling and speaking full-time, doing evangelism in public schools, until we started LifeWise Academy, which I know we'll chat about. But along the way, the Lord has given us five wonderful children, four boys and a girl. [00:02:26] The kids are now ages 13, 12, 11, 8, and 6. So if I sound a bit tired, that's why.
Laura Dugger: Well, that's incredible. I love hearing the family life stage. Right at the beginning of your book, you address the single greatest missed opportunity to impact our next generation of public school students. Will you share what that is?
Joel Penton: Yes. We say we believe the single greatest missed opportunity is something called "released time religious instruction", which most people have never heard of. That's a legal term. Here we are in 2023, and so many of us Christians are wringing our hands about what's happening with our schools and with the next generation, and how the word of God and prayer have been removed from the public schools in our nation.
And little do most of us realize that in 1952, so over 70 years ago, the Supreme Court ruled that public school students can be released from public school during school hours, in the middle of the school day, students can be released to receive religious instruction, can be taught the Bible, provided the program is off school property, privately funded, and students have parental permission. [00:03:48] That's what this released time religious instruction is. Students can be released from school and attend religious classes.
So this has been around for over 70 years, this opportunity that's right in front of us, almost no one has ever heard of it.
We started a program in 2019 to take advantage of this really amazing, almost hidden or under-the-radar opportunity, and it's really starting to take off, and we're excited about it.
Laura Dugger: How did you even discover this and even get personally passionate about students learning the Bible during school hours?
Joel Penton: Well, I'm passionate about it, about anybody learning the Bible during any hours ever since I became a Christian. I came to faith when I was in high school, as a freshman in high school. And so Jesus has been the center of my life ever since. That's why I went into ministry and to share the gospel with others. [00:04:45] Now that my wife and I have children, we want the Bible to be at the center of education for our children. So that's why I'm personally passionate about this.
However, I kind of... well, I didn't really stumble onto this release time thing. It kind of found me in the sense that people in my hometown of Van Wert, Ohio, started a released time program back in 2012. They discovered they could do this. Not only as the Supreme Court ruled on this, but now 26 states in the nation have laws about release time. Ohio is one of them.
So they started a program in 2012 and saw incredible impact. Over 95% of the entire public school student body for the elementary school enrolled in the program. Nearly every kid in town, even though only 30% of them attend church, nearly every kid attends this program to be taught the Bible as part of their public school day.
So that was 2012. In 2018, they reached out to me, being the hometown guy. I live in Columbus now. But they said, "Joel, you started a ministry to public schools. [00:05:49] So you're in ministry. The ministry is growing. We have this incredible program. We'd like you to help us figure out how come more communities don't have a program like this? Why hasn't this spread?" And so they kind of enlisted me to help them figure out why hasn't something like this spread coast to coast. It's been around for almost 70 years at that point.
I tell people that's the day I gave up sleeping when they called me to ask that question. That set me on the journey of trying to figure out, yeah, why hasn't this spread? Which led me to conclude that, well, you know, there's not a plug-and-play replicable model. Or there wasn't. So that's why we started LifeWise Academy.
Laura Dugger: Historically, public school students used to have religious and moral teaching as part of their expected schooling. So how did that break down over time?
Joel Penton: That absolutely was part of schooling in our country. Not only was it part and not only was it central to public education in our country. [00:06:50] In fact, biblical literacy was one of the driving motivations for even the start of broad education in America.
You could go back to the 1600s and there's a famous act in Massachusetts called the Old Deluder Act in the very early days of this, I guess we weren't even a nation at that point. But a law was passed saying that communities had to teach children to read so that they could read the Bible.
Much of early education was for the sake of children being able to read the scriptures. However, as the decades wore on and as sectarian differences from community to community began to be flattened and everything began to be more and more standardized across states and then ultimately across the nation, denominational distinctions were removed. And then with the rise of science and the scientific revolution and secularism, ultimately religion altogether was just removed. [00:07:55]
The courts finalized that in the 40s and 50s, removing the Bible and prayer from public education altogether. However, the piece that most people miss is that in 1952, that's when the Supreme Court did rule, Well, religion can be part of the public school day, but it just has to be off school property, privately funded, and with parental permission. That's the opportunity we've missed and that's what we're trying to reinstall.
Laura Dugger: And it's an understatement to say that it's unfortunate for the direction we've moved. But for those schools who are implementing this, what kind of positive impact are you seeing this religious education have on the students and the school in general?
Joel Penton: Oh, well, we're seeing an incredible impact. I mean, it's the word of God and the word of God is powerful. It's active. It changes lives. It's spiritual and it's supernatural. And while we don't understand all of it because it's God's word and His spirit working, we see it. So we see kids coming to faith. [00:08:55] We see families being impacted.
But there are some things that are just, I mean, so obvious. Well, for one, the stories that roll in, honestly, on a daily basis are incredible about families getting reconnected to the church, about lives being changed. I was just speaking in a church this past week, the week before, and a woman came up to me and said, "Hey, I want to thank you for what's going on with LifeWise. My family and I are in this church because of LifeWise. We enrolled our daughter and it was through that that we got reconnected to the church, and my daughter and I were just baptized two weeks ago."
So hearing stories like that over and over, we see the impact. The schools are seeing it as well. The feedback we're getting from educators, administrators, and teachers is that they are seeing the impact. We had one school that did a study of the students who were sent to the principal's office for disciplinary reasons the most. They did a study and found that in that group of kids who were most sent to the principal's office for disciplinary reasons, those who attended LifeWise, their trips to the principal's office actually dropped from first semester to second semester by 60%. [00:10:03] Whereas the students who were not a part of LifeWise, their office referrals actually went up from first semester to second semester. And so we're seeing the positive impact.
It doesn't really surprise us because studies have shown that when kids have Bible education in their lives, their academics improve, their character improves, their mental health improves. All the things you want to see in the life of a healthy young person you see as a result of Bible education.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's focus in on one of those areas that you addressed, specifically mental health. Do you have any stories or examples to share of how this program has improved the mental health of students?
Joel Penton: Well, we are working with an agency right now that is doing some of those studies and compiling some of that data from our programs. However, there are many studies that show the connections between positive mental health and just religious activity altogether, all of the risk factors, things like anxiety, depression, suicide, or thoughts of suicide, all those things go down when somebody has religion in their lives, specifically Bible education. [00:11:21] And all the things of satisfaction, happiness, contentment, these types of positive mental health attitudes, all of those things go up.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
[00:11:38] <music>
Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.
Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.
Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank.
To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.
[00:13:06] <music>
Laura Dugger: Well, and Joel, personally, we have some neighboring towns who are a part of LifeWise Academy, but I had never heard of it until a couple months ago. When I read your book, I just kept wondering, how did I not know about this? Maybe somebody else listening feels in the dark like I did as well. So will you explain exactly what LifeWise Academy is?
Joel Penton: Yes, absolutely. And don't feel bad. Don't feel in the dark. For one, we just started this in 2019. It is growing very quickly, very rapidly. But a year before that, in 2018, I was completely unfamiliar with released time religious instruction.
Here I was, I was in full-time ministry to public school students, and I had never heard of it. I should have been an expert when it comes to ministry to public schools. But yes, I will explain it.
So LifeWise provides Bible education for public school students during school hours. [00:14:07] And those last three words are the critical words there. During school hours. Oftentimes when we say that, people think they either misheard us or they think that that sounds illegal or something. But it's very real because of the Supreme Court ruling that I've talked about because of the state laws. Students can be released from school to receive Bible education during school hours.
And we're able to see such a large participation rate among students. Many times over 50%, sometimes upwards of even 90% of the entire school will enroll. And we know it's in large part because of the practical logistics, the practical opportunity that being during school. And so it's fairly simple.
Our program will operate alongside a public school, whether it's in a church down the street or maybe we meet in a YMCA or a storefront or maybe even the local community builds a building dedicated to this program. [00:15:07] Many communities do that.
But we have volunteers, our staff who pick students up at the school, whether it's in a big red LifeWise bus or maybe they're even walking to an adjacent property. They'll take them off site, teach them a Bible lesson, and bring them back to the school.
We teach the students through the entire Bible, Genesis through Revelation, over the course of typically five years, typically grades one through five is our focus, although we do serve in some schools all the way grades K through 12. But we'll teach them using a wonderful curriculum called The Gospel Project, where each and every lesson we talk about the head, heart, and hands. The head meaning what's the information on the page? What does the word of God say? Heart: how does it connect to the bigger picture of the gospel message? How is Jesus the hero of every story? And hands: how does it transform our character?
So we take kids off of the school property, teach them a Bible lesson, bring them back, usually just one or two classrooms at a time. Then we rotate until everybody in the entire school has an opportunity to take the lesson. [00:16:12] And what we're seeing is, again, incredible impact.
LifeWise provides all the systems, processes, resources, training, and curriculum so that local communities like yours can just follow the process, follow the steps, and implement a program to teach local students the Bible.
Laura Dugger: And then the teachers themselves, would these be lay volunteers or do you see mostly pastors stepping into this role?
Joel Penton: You know, it varies from volunteers to paid staff. Usually, it's paid because these programs can grow very large. For example, our largest program, there's a thousand students in the elementary school, over 900 of them are in LifeWise.
So two classrooms at a time, five times a day, five days a week, we're picking kids up, taking them to the YMCA, and teach them the Bible lessons. So we have two full-time teachers that teach through.
But yeah, it can be local pastors. Oftentimes it's local individuals who have a background in teaching. Sometimes it's a young mother that doesn't necessarily want to teach five days a week. [00:17:15] Other times it's retired teachers. But ultimately it's local people. We give the communities the templates and the documentation so they can post jobs online and then people locally apply and we select the best candidates.
Laura Dugger: And when you say it could be a paid position, are they paid through community dollars that are raised for this? Because it does have to be separate from the school, correct?
Joel Penton: Yes, it does have to be completely separate from the school and it is local communities. Yes, they raise the funds. We give them all the templates and all the training, including training on how to raise money. How do you do your initial campaign to raise the first year's budget? And how do you do the fundraising to raise your monthly and ongoing annual contributions? But yes, it's a local project, funded locally. We're just providing the resources.
Laura Dugger: And then if there's more questions arising in people's minds, probably one of them would be, what does this take the place of during school hours? [00:18:18] Like when is this an option?
Joel Penton: That's a great practical question. It varies from school to school. Oftentimes, I think I would even say typically, we're able to work and chat with the school and create a way that they actually add a special to the rotation. So in the same way that students get art class once a week, gym class a few times a week, music class, oftentimes they'll add another special and it'll be an optional special of Bible class. So it's not necessarily taking the place of something.
Other times, it'll be during maybe a lunch period or during a library time because that's typically an ungraded time and students can find other opportunities to check out books. That's where it becomes a little more art than science. And it really is dependent upon each unique school building, which has its own unique kind of bell schedule and classes rotation.
Laura Dugger: I'm sure I'm definitely missing some important angles. [00:19:18] So what are a few of your other responses to the most frequently asked questions you receive?
Joel Penton: Yeah, great question. Well, you've hit a couple. How does the schedule really work? That's a big one. Another one is funding. And then I did mention our curriculum. That question comes up a lot. One question we get often is have we been experiencing pushback? Sometimes people hear this and they think, holy cow. I bet this gets people riled up to think about pulling kids out of public school and teaching them the Bible.
I would say that we've received some pushback, of course, but honestly, much less than I would have ever expected. I live in now a large suburb of Columbus, Ohio and I thought, "Boy, it's going to be really hard for this to work in, whether it's the large inner city or the suburban communities. I bet people are going to maybe get upset or push back." But we haven't really seen that very much. [00:20:17]
What we're finding is that schools know that there's a great need in the lives of students and they're excited to see the community coming alongside the school and investing in the lives of students. We see that the case for it, that legally speaking, it's so unambiguously legal that, you know, schools don't feel like they're going to get in trouble or they're going to get sued.
And when you consider that it's entirely optional. Parents, you know, they sign their kids up if they want to. And if they don't want to sign their kids up, then they don't. So there's really not too much to get upset about. By and large, we're seeing, like I said, huge participation.
What we're finding is that while there are some people that think Bible education is a bad thing, that actually that's very, very few people. That most parents, even if they don't have their family in church, see Bible education, character education as a positive thing. In fact, they're often thinking, "You know what, I haven't been taking my family to church. I haven't been investing in this way in my family. This is a great opportunity for me to do that." [00:21:22] And so they're signing their kids up. And then that becomes the first step in the whole family getting reconnected.
Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe. And that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.
You've alluded to this a little bit, but can you clarify why this is still legal when people ask questions about the separation of church and state?
Joel Penton: Oh, yeah. Great question. That is often one of the first things people mention is, what about the separation of church and state? What we try to point out is that this is actually a very beautiful manifestation of the separation of church and state in the fact that students are literally separated from the state school to receive this religious instruction. [00:22:33] Because it's off school property, because it's not using any public funds, because it's not compulsory, that makes it very separate from the state school.
And so this is something that any religion could do. You know, there could be a Muslim program or a Hindu program or whatever. You know, our program is a gospel-centered Bible education program. But in many ways, it is a great example of the separation of church and state.
Laura Dugger: And what kind of impact are you seeing in communities that have implemented this?
Joel Penton: Well, we're seeing broad impact. We're seeing impact in the lives of students. We're seeing impact in the schools themselves. And then we're seeing the impact in the communities, in the churches. I just heard from a school that it was a brand new startup program. Most of our programs have well over 100 students involved. But this is a small startup program that just at this time had 50 students involved. [00:23:33] And they were saying that over half of those students were already... the families were getting connected to that church, the church where the building where they were hosting the program.
One of the most exciting things is to see how it is affecting the culture. We started this, Laura, because, you know, we wanted students to hear the gospel. We wanted students to come to faith. And that's happening. But then it's the other things that are also exciting, like the unity among churches. We hadn't really thought about how exciting that would be. But it is exciting to see the unity among churches, churches coming together for this common gospel-centered cause.
Also exciting to see the culture change in the school that we're hearing it's no longer weird in these schools to hear kids talking about Jesus. It's no longer weird to see kids carrying around their Bibles and reading their Bibles during reading time because now it's part of the school day. [00:24:34] This whole thing of silence when it comes to religion is not a thing in these schools because so many kids are involved. It's really changing the culture.
Laura Dugger: I love one of those words that you chose to use, unity. That's been a buzzword in our home. And even recently, my husband was just saying after his quiet time how he had never really considered that one of Jesus' last prayers was for unity. So as Mark was studying in his quiet time, he was in John 17. And I'll just read verses 20 and 21. He was reading in the New Living Translation. This was one of Jesus' prayers.
He said, "I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me." [00:25:33]
And this idea that Jesus had the urgency to pray for unity and to be one, I love that this is a very practical way that the churches in the community can come together to share the love and light of Christ.
Joel Penton: Yeah. You just used the word "practical". We are now consistently hearing that from pastors. They're saying that this is the first time we as a community, the churches have really come together in a meaningful and practical way.
There is one pastor that was saying, over the years we've done things in an effort for unity but they all seem kind of forced. You know, we'll do a community service or we'll do something together at the fair once a year, but it seems a bit forced. Whereas this is something that is very meaningful. We are coming together for a mission, for a purpose. And that's to teach our public school students the Bible. In the same way the community is coming together in this public school, we as the churches are coming together and we're united in teaching our kids the Bible. And it's very exciting to see. [00:26:41]
Laura Dugger: Well, and for anyone still kind of trying to wrap their mind around this or hopefully wanting to implement this, how do the logistics actually work then? Can you go into that a little bit further?
Joel Penton: Yes, absolutely. Now it might get a bit nerdy, but I will get into it. There's kind of two things to consider when it comes to logistics.
The first one is how to get a program started and then the second would be how is a program run and operated on a day-to-day ongoing basis. When it comes to starting a program now that we've done this, which, by the way, I don't think I've mentioned, we just launched the program in 2019 and this year we'll be serving over 320 schools across 12 states. So we anticipate well over 30,000 students to be enrolled. And so we're really excited.
But that's in part to say that now that we've done it over 300 times, we feel really good about our very simple and clear 10-step launch process. And that 10-step process is kind of divided into three phases. [00:27:42] We have an interest phase where we establish with the first few steps that there's adequate interest in the community to launch and sustain an effective program.
And then we have a planning phase where a steering committee works with one of our staff members. We assign them and they put together a plan. That's the plan that's taken to the school to discuss how can we see this implemented locally. Ninety percent of the time, the plans we present to the school are approved.
And then we have an execution phase where all those plans that are brought to life with a T minus plan.
But it all kicks off with that interest phase, which is really driven through what we call our community interest list on our website. And I'd invite everybody listening to go there, LifeWise.org, at least learn more. But even more so, click "Find your school".
Every school district is listed on our website. And you can find out if there's already a LifeWise movement underway and whether or not there is. You can add your name. You can voice your support on the community interest list. Once we see 50 signatures on the community interest list, which is basically a petition that signals to us, Okay, people in this community want to do it. [00:28:51] So that's actually step one. And then we move on through that 10-step process.
So get to LifeWise.org, click "Find your school", add your name to the list and you'll be in the loop and you'll be voicing your support.
So that's the 10 steps to get it started. And then ongoing maintaining a program. There's a local director. There's a local board. And then, of course, there's other local leaders and teachers and volunteers.
But we talk about and here's where it might get nerdy, I apologize, Laura. Or you can cut this out if it's too boring. But we talk about the five L's of LifeWise operations, the five big operational categories that keep things going.
Leadership. So there's the people element, your volunteers, teachers, leaders.
Location. So that's where you hold the program and a necessary transportation.
Logistics. So there's your school schedule, your enrollment policies, that type of thing.
Loot. That's my personal favorite, which is the money thing of fundraising and finances, that type of thing.
Language is the final L. That's communicating with parents and the school and donors, that type of thing. [00:29:55]
There's a board member that heads up each of those five things. And the director kind of holds all that together. By focusing on those operational categories, communities can continue moving forward and reaching more and more students.
Laura Dugger: That's actually really helpful to hear it laid out that way. I'm just curious, do you have any favorite stories that come to mind?
Joel Penton: Yeah. Oh, boy, favorite stories. Absolutely. Well, I think of one story that actually your listeners could kind of see for themselves, we have a video on our videos page called Christian's Story. And this is a story that the chapters continue to be written.
A couple of years ago, we launched a program in a suburb of Columbus and a mother signed up her child who almost ironically is named Christian because they weren't part of a church, not necessarily a Christian family. But she got the flyer in the mail and she said, "Hey, Bible education." And she thought what I think many of our parents think is, "Hey, this couldn't hurt." And so she signed up Christian. [00:30:56]
Of course, Christian fell in love with Jesus, fell in love with the Bible, asked his LifeWise teacher if she would call his mother and invite his mother to church. So the LifeWise teacher said, Sure. So she called her up and invited her to church. The whole family went. And to this day, the whole family is plugged into that church. Christian's in the class to be baptized. His mother's in a weekly Bible study with the LifeWise teacher.
And the latest chapter I just heard is that the family is actually moving to a different part of town. And so they're actually moving out of that school district. Christian was really sad when he found out that the school he was moving to didn't have a LifeWise. And so he and his LifeWise teacher started praying that they would have a LifeWise.
And sure enough, when Christian went just a few weeks ago to the open house day at his school, he saw that there was a LifeWise table at the open house because they were starting a LifeWise this fall. [00:32:00] And so Christian is already back at school and back in LifeWise at his new school.
I think that story for me just shows.. It's like almost all the different awesome things all at once. It shows the power of the gospel and the life of that child. It shows what changed Christian's life. I think it shows also how it can then spread to the family and get the entire family engaged. Then lastly, I think it shows that this thing of LifeWise academy is spreading and it's really possible to implement in any community coast to coast.
Laura Dugger: Well, Joel, that is incredible. The gospel practically lived out through this program, it is changing lives for eternity. If anyone wants to take that first step, where would you like to direct us after this conversation?
Joel Penton: I'd really direct you to our website, LifeWise.org. Of course, you can find my book on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, but I'm really not that interested in selling a lot of books. [00:33:01] I'd much rather prefer everybody find their way to our website, LifeWise.org. Jump around, watch some of our videos. But before you leave, click "Find your school" and add your name to your local community interest list. Or maybe there's even already a program in your area. Get connected and at least voice your support. And then you'll be in the loop and you'll get our communications if you go to LifeWise.org.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add the links to that in the show notes for today's episode. You may be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Joel, what is your savvy sauce?
Joel Penton: Oh, my goodness. My savvy sauce, practical knowledge, getting super practical. Can I say two things?
Laura Dugger: Absolutely.
Joel Penton: I'll say one thing. And that is... and I don't know if you're looking for productivity, but I believe in rising early in the morning. When I was a child, my dad taught me that. He basically said that if you want to be a great something, then you better get up early in the morning. [00:34:04] So I like to start my day very early and I encourage my boys to do the same and my daughter — my kids. And I just invite everybody. That's a very low-hanging fruit and a very simple thing.
The second thing, another thing my dad taught me, he said, "List your work and work your list. Otherwise, things will get away from you." And so I lead now this organization and we have... I think we just eclipsed 800 employees. And I tell people, I know it should be more complicated than this, but I'm a simple person. Whatever you do, list your work and then work your list. I should be able to see your list. You should be able to show me your list anytime. It really is that simple.
Laura Dugger: So good. Joel, your energy is inspiring and I just appreciate your zeal to reach the lost for Jesus. So thank you very much for being my guest.
Joel Penton: Ah, thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:35:06] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:36:11] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. [00:37:16] Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:38:17]
Monday Oct 09, 2023
Monday Oct 09, 2023
213. School Series: Charter Schools and Enjoying Parenting with Dr. Eva Moskowitz
**Transcription Below**
Deuteronomy 4:9 (NIV) Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
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How can we all become enthusiastic lifelong learners and train our children to be the same?
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What exactly is a charter school and what are a few of your favorite reasons to recommend it as a viable option for parents and students to consider?
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What are a few ideas for ways our families can enjoy life and learning together?
Eva Moskowitz founded Success Academy Charter Schools in 2006. She has authored four books including her latest, A+ Parenting: The Surprisingly Fun Guide to Raising Surprisingly Smart Kids. Learn more about her through Success Academy.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.
As we continue our school series, I'm reminded again of the overlap between educating and parenting children. Eva Moskowitz is my guest, and she beautifully weaves these topics together. She is the founder of Success Academy Charter Schools and author of A+ Parenting: The Surprisingly Fun Guide to Raising Surprisingly Smart Kids. We're going to chat about both topics, parenting and charter schools. [00:01:20]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eva.
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Thanks for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Will you start us off by giving us a little context and sharing more about who you are and what you do?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. So my name is Eva Moskowitz, and I'm the founder and CEO of Success Academies, one of the largest charter networks in the country with extraordinarily high performance. We are in New York City, educating 21,000 students, kindergarten through 12th grade. We are all lifelong learners and incredibly enthusiastic about the criticality of a great education.
I'm also the author of four books and very interested in parenting. [00:02:21] I'm a mother of three myself, and I've been thinking a lot about how to raise intellectual children, both from a schooling perspective, but also from a parent perspective.
Laura Dugger: And after reading your most recent book, I gather that you are passionate about infusing the joy into learning. So you mentioned you all are enthusiastic lifelong learners. How can we all become that way and train our children to be the same?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, there's nothing more important than reading. You can teach yourself anything through books. We all need to be avid readers. I would argue not only of fiction but also nonfiction. I personally read four or five newspapers a day so that I can be an informed global citizen. I also listen to audible books and podcasts. [00:03:23]
I find there are so many opportunities in today's world to continually improve yourself and make sure that you are more knowledgeable, more learned, more thoughtful, have better questions to ask. If you do that for yourself, you will also impact your children.
Laura Dugger: I think it's wonderful that reading is such a delightful activity, not only for ourselves, but also even reading aloud.
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Reading aloud is the best. With my three children, we read short stories aloud, we listened to short stories being read aloud by wonderful actors and readers. Today's technology actually affords so much ease at getting access to great literature. You can listen to the wonderful BBC dramatization of great novels and short stories. [00:04:30] There are so many different ways that you can become a lifelong learner today.
Laura Dugger: Well, and again, back to your book. I love how you pointed out that students who are going to school are going to spend approximately 180 days a year at school. But that leaves the other 185 days at home. So there is actually an incredible opportunity for learning to occur at home. So, Eva, how do you think that we can be intentional to maximize the effort and enjoyment of those 185 days at home?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I think there are a couple of ways. I mean, first, just by realizing how precious that time is and that even formal schooling only occupies a small percentage of that. Obviously, we need to sleep and eat and clean our houses and pay our taxes and do the laundry and participate in religious or community activities. [00:05:37] But there's an awful lot of family time, and you want to use that time impactfully.
You know, I wrote this book because I found a gap in the literature. There's tons of books on how to toilet train your child or how to deal with tantrums or all sorts of problems that parents encounter, but there wasn't anything in the literature on what I would argue is one of the most important jobs of a parent, and that is shaping and raising intellectual children.
There are a variety of ways to do that. Reading is one, but it's certainly not the only one. I know you know from the book that I'm a huge believer in games, intellectual games. That can be super enjoyable for parents and for kids and, in fact, can be a family bonding experience that your kids will remember their whole lives. [00:06:38]
Laura Dugger: I love how you brought out so many enjoyable activities to share together. I'm just curious, then, will you catch us up? What are the ages currently of your children?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I'm sort of at the other end of the spectrum, meaning I became an empty nester last year for the first time, which I was rather sad about. I love motherhood. I love the family and the family time.
My kids are now... my eldest is 25 and he's graduated from college. My middle one is at the U of Chicago studying mathematics and my youngest is at Wharton studying business in Philadelphia.
But I did all these things when my kids were very young and when they were teenagers. We still play games to this day. The games are a little more sophisticated or there are games that they played when they were little, like Backgammon, that either can be played at sort of a six or 7-year-old level or a 20-year-old level. [00:07:48] My kids still enjoy those activity.
My eldest recently was in a New York City Backgammon competition and is waiting to play the semifinals in his Backgammon competition. So it can last a lifetime. And it certainly has been a really important part of our family time.
Laura Dugger: I hope that you're even encouraged if you're hearing yourself. You have done what you set out to do with your children. And they sound like phenomenal human beings. I'm also curious, even going back to your family of origin, was this lifestyle instilled in you growing up as well?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yes. I mean, maybe a little less on the games. My family really emphasized dinner conversations. I can still remember to this day as a little kid, my mother and father asking us the big policy questions. [00:08:52] So they didn't say to themselves, well, a 6-year-old or 7-year-old is going to have nothing to say about peace in the Middle East. They kind of were patient with us and said, "Well, here's the issue. Here is how different sides view it. What do you think we should do or how do you solve problems like poverty? How do you make the schools better?"
So dinner conversation was something in my household growing up that my parents assumed that even young children could enter into those debates. I think the other thing they did was assume the criticality of diversity of thought. Meaning, sure, you want to raise your kids with clear values, but you also want to have some level of humility about whatever position you have.
There are alternatives and you want to learn to listen to those alternatives and always have evidence for your opinions or disagreeing with other people's opinions. [00:10:03]
Laura Dugger: That's so well said. In this series so far, we've covered various schooling options such as public, private, and homeschooling. But now I'd love to learn a little bit more about charter schools. So what exactly is a charter school? And can you also share just a few of your favorite reasons to recommend it as a viable option for parents and students to consider?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. I'm maybe a little bit unusual in the sense that I support all forms of parental choice. I think it's really, really important that parents of all socioeconomic backgrounds, of all religions, of all ethnicities get to decide what works best for them. [00:10:52]
But I am the founder and CEO of the largest network of public charter schools in New York City. A charter school is a school that is publicly funded. Unfortunately, we get less than the traditional district school, but it is nonetheless publicly funded, but independently run. So I have the freedom to make decisions about teaching and learning that I think is best for kids. Whereas in the district school, that is all sort of predetermined and a principal has to kind of follow the curriculum or follow all the rules that the district sets up.
At Success Academy, we are able to do very rigorous mathematics, science, literature, history. And we're able to design a K-12 program that works backwards from college and life and ensures that students are not only intellectually prepared, but also have the habits of mind that lead to success. [00:12:15]
We are very, very big at Success Academy on hard work and intrinsic motivation and organization, and time management. Those are just as important as being able to do physics and chemistry and calculus and game theory and economics, etc.
Laura Dugger: Okay. Just to make sure I'm tracking with you, so a charter school is still publicly funded, but then maybe even each one would have a different emphasis. So someone listening in California or New Jersey may have different options for the emphasis of their charter school. Is that right?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: That's correct. So I am one operator and I have my particular educational vision and school design, but there are others that have a different design and a different educational vision. [00:13:18] And parents can literally kick the tires and figure out, well, which charter school in their community do they want to go to?
Laura Dugger: And then are charter schools free to the public?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yes, they are free. You are not allowed to charge money, but you get admitted by random lottery. So if demand exceeds supply, you must run a random lottery and accept on a first come first serve basis.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
[00:13:58] <music>
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[00:15:20] <music>
Laura Dugger: Let's just get a little bit more specific about Success Academy. When you're going back to the beginning, you said you worked backwards. Can you share a little bit more about your vision? And once those students launch, what is your hope and goal for them?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. So we would like 60% of our high school graduates to major in math, science, and engineering, not because we don't like history or poetry, but we think that pragmatically that is where the world is going. And I should mention that I serve mostly poor children. So 94% of our kids are Black and brown. About 80% live below the poverty line. And our kids are outperforming kids in the affluent suburbs or in affluent parts of New York City.
So going back to our goal, we would like 60% to major in math, science, or engineering. [00:16:25] That is why we teach science five days a week starting in kindergarten. So it is not a second-class subject. It goes to the heart of what we do.
Our kids will have studied physics multiple times in elementary before they get to middle school. Our kids in high school take AP Physics, Chemistry, Biology, AP Calculus, Electrical and Mechanical Engineering, Environmental and Biomedical Engineering. So that is one design element.
I would also say, even though we have this emphasis on math, science, and engineering, our children read a poem a day starting in kindergarten. So, after 13 years, they will have read a lot of poetry when you do a poem a day. [00:17:27] So it is rigorous.
We assess kids quite frequently so that we know if the children are learning. We also have a tremendous emphasis on what we call scholar talent. That is the visual arts, dance, sports. All of our kids in elementary play chess. We have very robust chess teams. We have a tremendous emphasis on coding starting as early as kindergarten.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is very impressive. It's fascinating that you mentioned a poem a day. Do you have any research to back that up or reasoning? Because I've heard that there's so much benefit for studying poetry, but I think it's helpful to know the why behind it.
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yeah. I don't have research other than I've been educating thousands of kids over the past 18 years. [00:18:32] And I find it, one, very pleasurable because great poets provoke and delight and make one think. But we call them in kindergarten wonderful little packages that kids get to open up and really figure out the deeper meaning.
They're like little puzzles where kids have to infer because in poetry, everything is not explicitly laid out. The poem about a rosebush is not really about a rosebush. It's about the bloom of life and the diminishment of life as one journeys through the life cycle.
So kids have to kind of figure that out. We love how compact the exercise is. And we find that children get very good at seeing the delight in language and unpacking the intellectual puzzle that lies within the poem. [00:19:48]
Laura Dugger: I even remember back to my own childhood, whatever age we were when we maybe started resisting poetry or scoffed at it. And one teacher was saying, actually, all of you love poetry, and you probably listen to it on a daily basis. And she pointed out that music is set with language of poetry. So that's always stuck with me. If just in case someone's listening and thinking, oh, poetry is not for me or I don't want to incorporate that, it may already be a part of your life and benefit you in ways you're unaware of.
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: That's an excellent point. Actually, in the book, you know, we have a whole chapter on lyrics and songs because you're absolutely right. Vocal music is poetry set to music. So unpacking lyrics is not only enjoyable but quite intellectually productive. [00:20:47]
Laura Dugger: I love how education and parenting just go hand in hand. More on the parenting side, I think there are so many parents that have questions when it comes to the topic of discipline. So what has running schools taught you about disciplining children?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I have to confess, you know, I'm a little old-fashioned and really believe that order and civility is better for learning and for the emotional security of children and that any kind of chaos is not as productive. So at Success, we are a uniform school, meaning children are all in our orange and blue plaid uniform. Our classrooms are quite orderly.
That doesn't mean that kids aren't talking to one another. [00:21:48] You'll hear noise in our classrooms, but it will be children discussing books or mathematics or science. But I believe that schools have an obligation to teach kids self-regulation and internal discipline and that that is a really important part of schooling to teach the habits that lead to enormous success. So we are what we call warm, strict.
Laura Dugger: I like that. Will you unpack that a little further? Even if someone wants to apply that within their home, how can they also be warm and strict?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, you want to encourage kids to take intellectual risks and to try things, but no means no. And you want to use the no sparingly, but the rules need to be followed. So if your children have chores, they have to do those chores before they play. [00:22:54] If your children have to contribute to the running of the household, whether that's mowing the lawn or putting the dishes in the dishwasher or vacuuming or setting the table, whatever it is, your children must do that.
Also at Success, we do believe in hierarchy. It's not a small d democracy. The teachers go by their last names. Students would either call me Dr. Moskowitz or Ms. Moskowitz. They don't say, "Hey, Eva." We're formal. We think that formality is important for children to understand that there is a hierarchy. You want some level of formality because that's part of growing up and understanding that respecting your elders or respecting your minister or rabbi or respecting elected officials or whatever the case may be, you want to raise children who understand that there is a formality. [00:24:06]
Laura Dugger: I'll just read one other piece I appreciated. It was in your intro where you are talking about discipline, and I'll read your quote. It says, "Praise when it has been earned can be an even more effective motivator than criticism."
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I wholeheartedly believe that. Now, you don't want unearned praise. And it is important that kids feel positively about themselves and positively about learning. But you really want to make sure that you're not leading with the negative, but that the praise is well earned.
Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. [00:25:11] If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox.
Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the "Articles" tab.
From your experience, how have you seen screens influencing our children's learning potential and their enjoyment?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I think it gives kids a kind of warped sense of reality to be on their phones. The average American kid is on for about six hours a day. And it has social implications. It's really important for kids to be able to bond with other kids and also learn how to resolve conflict. [00:26:17] If you're on your phone, you're basically alone. And that aloneness does not teach kids how to develop all the social skills.
I also think that TikTok and Instagram and even YouTube, not all of that is intellectually worthwhile. Some of it may be, but a child doesn't necessarily have the discriminating taste to know what is going to be productive and what is not going to be productive. So I am in favor of significantly limiting that kind of time on social media and instead reading and playing board games and playing parlor games. They're actually much more fun as well as being more worthwhile.
Laura Dugger: I really couldn't agree with you more. [00:27:18] I'm inspired by what you said at the beginning about having humility when we approach differences. So I need to keep myself in check. I hope I have a spirit of humility.
But it is so hard to understand the use of iPads from my perspective. There is no research that I've come across where it is beneficial to increase all of the technology at home or in the schools. I would love to know whether you have the same or differing opinion. Would you like to speak into that at all?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. I think I have a different opinion. To me, technology is a tool to be more efficient. So we give all of our teachers iPads because it is easier when they're walking around the room and evaluating student work to use an iPad. All of our students have laptops. We give them laptops. We are fairly digital. So they do their homework digitally. [00:28:19] They take tests digitally.
For us, it's purely a matter of efficiency. We were spending a ton of money on paper and paper is difficult to distribute and collect. We still do some things on paper but now there are digital writing tools. So we use a program called Kami, where all of our kids can use a stylist to do their mathematics. It's almost the same as writing on paper.
I think what I object to is just all the TikTok, Instagram. There's a lot of cyberbullying these days. It's just sort of unnecessary, and I don't think it has a productive end goal. I mean, we have found that with our five-year-olds in kindergarten, for example, in addition to having math manipulatives, we also have virtual manipulatives. [00:29:19] But I would not have kids color on their iPad. Old-fashioned crayons, I think it's important to work with the material in art on paper.
Now, as the kids grow older, we do animation in high school. And they're doing that digitally, obviously. But I think in the early years, it's important that kids get their hands dirty with paint and smocks. And the point is really to sort of free their minds to express their artistic ideas.
Laura Dugger: Love that. Well, you just have an abundance of ideas. So what are some of your ideas for ways our families can enjoy life and learning together?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, I'll first say that if you look at parenting from one end of the telescope as opposed to the other, it can feel like a duty and a chore. [00:30:22] Of course, it is a duty. If you bring children into the world, there are parental duties. But I'm honestly trying to get parents to enjoy parenting more. I think if you enjoy it yourself, you will end up being a more successful parent.
One of the ways to enjoy parenting is to do with your kids things that you enjoy. So I loved reading. So reading to my children becomes a really enjoyable activity, really bringing me back to my own childhood. My mother read to me constantly as a little girl. So that's one way to enjoy your children. I would argue that family dinners, if you have topics, and I would really encourage parents to have a topic, that could be a policy topic. [00:31:27] Or as our family often did, we would select a movie on Sunday night. We would have Sunday night movie night, classic movies. The kids would be involved in picking. And sometimes at the beginning, the time spent selecting the movie can be as long as the time spent watching it when there are disagreements, etc.
Then after the movie, we would have dinner. The dinner topic conversation would be about the movie. And it's a really great way to focus children of a variety of ages and have a sort of unified topic. So dinner is a really valuable way to intellectually engage one's children.
I would argue things like parlor games, playing charades, cannot only be a tremendous amount of fun, but can be very, very educational. [00:32:30] As well as board games. I'm a big believer in Backgammon, blockers, chess, of course, many, many card games that are intellectual, from very simple ones to playing Bridge. Bridge is a great intellectual game. We started playing bridge with our kids when they were 8, 9 years old. It's a little slow going. And by the time they're in their early teens, they are quite accomplished at Bridge.
Laura Dugger: Let's just pause on a few of those. Let's go back first to the movie idea. Could you share a few of your favorites that your family watched and then discussed together?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. [00:33:18] Well, when they're little, we watched Judy Garland's The Wizard of Oz, which is just a tremendous favorite. You know, what is the lion? What is he afraid of? How does he get transformed? So that was an incredible favorite.
As the kids got older, there is the great Humphrey Bogart. Casablanca is one of our family favorites. Lawrence of Arabia is one of our favorites. I have to say that we probably over-indexed old movies. So my kids have watched almost all the silent films.
The comedies are great. Buster Keaton, how he did those stunts and the humor and the jokes. It gets kids involved in wit and what is witty about something and why is it funny? [00:34:18] What's the joke is a very worthwhile intellectual skill. And my kids just spend a lot of time laughing. We would watch the Tom and Jerry series that my kids found hilarious. And then we would sort of have to ask, well, why is it so funny? What about it is funny? And that intellectual exercise of articulating the joke, as it were, pays intellectual dividends.
Laura Dugger: What about for a family who's more passionate about art and music? What ideas would you recommend they could even start implementing this week?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I would encourage you to find musicians and lyrics that you love and play them with your kids and get the kids to be able to articulate. It may be you listen through it, but then at other times you kind of stop it and go over the lyrics or get them online and have the kids reading along while they're listening and talking about why that's such a great line. [00:35:30] You know, we did a lot of listening to Bob Dylan when my kids were growing up. He got the Nobel Prize for poetry because his lyrics are that good.
In terms of art, we did a lot of art-making when I was growing up. My mother is herself an artist. But art was a little harder for us. It's only in the kids' late teens that they started getting interested in going to museums. But we dragged them to many museums and they didn't always love it. But it's interesting that now that they're adults, I find that they're going to museums and are appreciating art. So sometimes it doesn't kind of stick at the beginning and you have to kind of keep at it.
Laura Dugger: Which is so true for many parts of parenting. I love how you draw that out. Another section of your book, even helping us to enjoy our children more, I love this one, encouraging them to ask questions. So can you elaborate on how we train them in that and why it's so important? [00:36:47]
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Curiosity is probably the biggest driver of learning, but it's not an on-off switch, as if some children were born without curiosity and some are. All children are curious. They might be curious about different things, and you can squelch their curiosity if you're not careful.
But if you encourage their curiosity, you will find that they ask so many questions you can barely keep up with them. But we've always explained things to our children and then paused. Usually, they have a follow-up question. So I can remember when my youngest, my daughter Hannah, was about eight years old. We would go on bike trips with our kids. We biked all over Europe and so forth. She was little, so she was on a tandem with my husband, Eric. [00:37:48] And he decided to explain the capital markets to her. She was 8. I could hear her asking questions and so forth.
I didn't really think about it much after that. But lo and behold, when it was time to apply to colleges, she said to my husband and I, "You know, Mom and Dad, I don't want to study Roman civilization that much longer. I would like to go to business school." And here she is attending Wharton. So I assume she got curious because my husband exposed her to a financial understanding.
My middle one, my husband, and I were always, and there's a chapter in the book, on logic puzzles and mathematical riddles. He is studying mathematics at the University of Chicago. And his interest in math riddles was generated when he was 6, 7, 8 years old. [00:38:54]
Laura Dugger: One thing that you write about made me think of a story I heard a while back where a junior hire was interviewed. And he said when he goes into a room, he likes to engage in conversation with the oldest person there who's going to take him seriously. That came to mind when you emphasized it's important to expose our children to adult conversations. I think the dinner table is such a natural place for that. But is there any other point you'd like to elaborate on for how you did this in your own family?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Sure. I mean, I just think that there's a tendency to think that kids can't handle or are not interested in adult conversation. My parents and my husband's parents, they never had a little kid table. We were always included in the conversation. [00:39:58] My parents didn't lower the level. And I didn't do that with my kids. I assumed that they could raise up to the level of the conversation. Not that you wouldn't have to define a word here and there or explain. You know, you have to explain to an 8-year-old capital markets. Otherwise, they're not going to understand it. But you assume that you can simplify and give kids the general idea without going into all of the complexity. And they too can contribute intellectually to whatever the topic at hand is. I think that was part of my own success as a parent.
I also think that socially, my three kids, and I hope my 21,000 other kids, are very comfortable interacting with adults. They're not some weird species of animal. [00:41:04] My kids, you know, respectfully, of course, assume that they have something to contribute and something to learn from others. And I think that's a very important habit that we sometimes fail to teach kids.
Laura Dugger: Also, what would you say are some opportunities for learning through travel?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Oh, it's my favorite. First, I love to travel. But also, I love my kids to experience different cultures and to understand that we are part of a larger global context. But even more basically and perhaps more prosaically, you know, trying different foods and seeing different cultural norms, I think, makes you wiser, more humble, more sophisticated, more self-aware of what is great about your own country or your own culture when you travel to faraway places and other lands. [00:42:24]
Laura Dugger: Well, and when you list ideas like this, I get so inspired and stirred up to give these a try. It's very energizing to me. But I also know some people can hear all of these topics and be a bit overwhelmed. You even address them. I love in the intro, again, I'll read your quote, because you graciously write, "If, like us, you can find some time to do some of the things in this book, it will have a huge positive impact on your children."
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Yeah. And look, I was not a stay-at-home mom. Both my husband and I worked. I had a crazy schedule. I was an elected official when my children were very young. And then I built this enormous schooling operation. And so I didn't have gobs of time. But I did enjoy the time that I had with my kids. [00:43:28] I don't think you want to stress yourself out as a parent. I think you want to do what you can do and do it enjoyably and not over-index on should have, could have, would have. But find things that come naturally to you.
You don't have to do all the things in the book. That's not the purpose of the book. The purpose of the book is to highlight some of the variety so that different parents who have different interests and different circumstances can support their children's intellectual development.
Laura Dugger: Well, Eva, you have so much to offer. Where would you like to direct us to go after this chat if we would like to continue learning from you?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Well, you're more than welcome to go on the Success Academy website and find out about the school. [00:44:30] I also have a sharing arm where I put our course content material on our website for anyone to download. So if you want to see second-grade literacy or our third-grade science curriculum, you can find that online to use.
I should mention that all of the proceeds for the book go to the not-for-profit, which is Success Academy. But I would encourage you to get the book so that you have it as a reference for a rainy Saturday afternoon when you're trying to think about what to do with your kids. Or if you're homeschooling. There are obviously lots and lots of activities that you can do.
Laura Dugger: I love that we will add those links in the show notes for today's episode. Eva, you may already be aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:45:31] And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: I would say that my savvy sauce is really to find enjoyment in parenting and think about how you can impact your kids' intellectual development.
Laura Dugger: Well, you are a brilliant and passionate woman, and I so appreciate you sharing your ideas with us today. Thank you so much for being my guest.
Dr. Eva Moskowitz: Laura, thank you for having me. It was my pleasure.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:46:33]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:47:35]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:48:41] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 25, 2023
Monday Sep 25, 2023
Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow
Titus 1:1b (AMP) “for the faith of God’s chosen ones and [to lead and encourage them to recognize and pursue] the knowledge of the truth which leads to godliness,"
Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.
He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Connect on Socials @visionaryfamilyministries
A Sample of Books by Dr. Rob Rienow
God’s Grand Vision for the Home
Bible Studies with Dr. Rob Rienow
Not So Perfect Mom by Amy Rienow
The Heart of Your Teen by Lissy Rienow
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Sep 18, 2023
Monday Sep 18, 2023
212. School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee
Deuteronomy 6:5-7 (NIV) “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.”
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
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How did your grandfather teach you about “kingdom economy”?
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How have you set up your life in such a way that your entire family pursues wholeness?
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Do you have any other practical tips for parenting or homeschooling you'd like to share?
Jodi Mockabee is a photographer, writer, blogger, speaker, social media influencer, and homeschooling mother of five living in the Black Hills of South Dakota. With a passion for health, wellness, parenting, and more, Jodi blogs her family's journey and shares tips for a healthy and active lifestyle. She also writes curriculum for creative and artistic learning in a homeschool environment. Find her at JodiMockabee.com.
Jodi's Book: The Whole & Healthy Family
Follow Jodi on Instagram
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Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
We get to continue our school series today, and this time we are hearing from my guest, Jodi Mockabee. Jodi is the homeschooling mom of five children and author of The Whole and Healthy Family: Helping Your Kids Thrive in Mind, Body, and Spirit. And we're going to talk about each of those areas, so I can't wait to share her insight into homeschooling and parenting. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jodi.
Jodi Mockabee: Thanks so much for having me, Laura. I'm happy to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, will you just launch our conversation by sharing your personal testimony? [00:01:19]
Jodi Mockabee: Sure. I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor, his dad was a pastor. I don't really know when the moment that I knew that God was true and real. It was just a part of my identity from the beginning being raised in that kind of covenant household.
But I do remember from a young age, probably around the age of five, truly experiencing a relationship with God on my own, feeling independent from my family and my parents' beliefs, feeling the Lord move within my heart, stir within my heart.
I have some really vivid memories of worship in our own church and the Lord just moving my heart from a young age, before you have that critical eye that you look through, so you know that it's real and true. I just remember encounters with God very young, and that is when I definitely devoted my life to Him. [00:02:19]
I grew up in a healthy family, spiritually and mentally. My dad got diagnosed with brain cancer when I was 10. That kind of threw our whole family for a loop and was a really difficult time for our family.
I don't think I've ever shared this on a podcast, but it is part of my testimony. When he found out that he had brain cancer, the tumor was the size of a grapefruit. They didn't think he would make it through. And this is back in 1990. The medical treatment wasn't where it is today either.
But he fell to his knees. He was diagnosed on Valentine's Day, so February 14, 1990. He fell to his knees and he just said, "Lord, please give me just 10 more years so I can see my children grow up, so that I can be a dad in their life." And he died 10 years to that day.
If that doesn't tell you that there is a loving God who listens to our prayers, then I don't know what does. [00:03:23] He died on Valentine's Day, 2000. We did get 10 years extra with him. Coming so close to death from his perspective, he poured so much into what was important, which was his family. We just got 10 years of an incredible father and mentor, watching him be an amazing husband.
I look back and that was probably my most formative years of just having this incredible mentor in our household. He passed away when I was in college. I met my husband shortly after that.
My husband and I were not really following the Lord closely when we both met. That's another testimony to God's goodness, because it could have gone really bad. Just because we were both in such a bad place, we were not seeking the Lord.
The fact that God is sovereign and knew all along that we were to be each other's helpmates, it still blows my mind that we're still married based on who we were when we met. [00:04:30] That's kind of our testimony.
As the years have progressed and we've added children and our life has gotten messier, all I can say is that the Lord is faithful and good. We've been through some really hard things. The Lord is just so faithful and has managed to just allow us to laugh through a lot of it. I'm just grateful to be here.
There's so much to be grateful for. I feel like in general, my testimony is just a testimony of gratefulness of God's goodness.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Jodi, thank you so much for sharing that. I was already struck with tears in my eyes within those first few minutes. I am so sorry for the loss of your father. That's never easy, regardless of the age.
Jodi Mockabee: No, no, it's not. I think from an early age, I just learned that nothing's wasted. One of my favorite verses, even before he had died, I believe it's 2 Corinthians 1:1-3. [00:05:31] It talks about the God of comfort and how God comforts us so that we can comfort others. I didn't know how substantial that verse would be in my life until we've encountered really difficult things. To me, just nothing is a true loss because He uses it to comfort others in the kingdom.
There are so many topics that are really awkward for us to handle as believers, you know, on how do you say or how do you respond to things? But I just think nothing's fully lost. It's all to gain in one way or another. So, yes, it was horrible, sad. It's still really sad to know that my dad never knew my kids and my kids never knew my dad. But it's all for God's glory in one way or another. Thank you. That's a really long response.
Laura Dugger: No.
Jodi Mockabee: I'm so sorry.
Laura Dugger: No, this is wonderful. [00:06:30] Really, we're just getting a glimpse into the rich spiritual heritage that you had even these men in your life. Going back to your grandfather, even, there's a story that you share in your book. Can you tell us what he taught you about kingdom economy?
Jodi Mockabee: Yes, absolutely. My grandparents were really wonderful, powerful people for the Lord's kingdom. Probably the most selfless people that you would ever know.
They fostered hundreds of kids, adopted kids, just heavily active in the kingdom. They never lived extravagantly. The idea of the quote-unquote American dream just disgusted my grandpa, the white picket fence and the big house and the two kids and all that. That's his opinion.
But they lived a true life with that. They lived very modestly. They had a small income but gave away everything. [00:07:30] There were many situations where they tried to give to us or did give to us, and we were just so humbled by it, knowing that they made less money than we did.
I share a story in the book about how twice throughout my grandfather's life, the IRS had to audit him because the numbers didn't make sense when he put in his taxes. And it always showed that they gave away more than they made. So it was an instant red flag for the IRS. And so twice people had to come to their home to go through, and this was when everything was on paper, so to go through kind of their records and things like that.
And my grandpa, he's a German engineer, very just methodical, kept great accounts of everything. So it's comical that he got audited because he's so careful, very black and white. There's no manipulating the system on his end. [00:08:30]
And so twice he got audited, twice the people that were sent to do his auditing went through all of the files and recognized that they did, in fact, give more than they made. And both times these people left saved. My grandparents, just by living their lifestyle, were able to add to God's kingdom, just by showing that it is possible to give more than receive.
That is a part of my spiritual heritage. They will always be a great inspiration for what it's like to be stewards, what it's like to give. That story is just a fun one to share because it seems pretty impossible.
Laura Dugger: Yes. And the people walked away with their lives changed knowing Jesus. It's so incredible.
Jodi Mockabee: And the phrase "kingdom economy", I think that has helped teach us that... just like our children, our children are not ours. They're here for us to steward for a short amount of time. [00:09:33] But that's the same with money. Nothing you make or spend is yours. It's the Lord's money and it all serves a purpose.
So the kingdom economy, that phrase that they always used was like picturing just this money exchanging hands all for God's glory. You may give, but you'll also be provided for. And they lived so truly to that. They sold their home when they were no longer able to care for it. So they were in their late 80s, maybe early 90s, And they didn't have a retirement or anything like that. Very modest income and were very careful with their money.
So when they sold their home, they came up with a plan to live on my cousin's property. Everyone that they had blessed in their lifetime came together and built this in-law quarters on my cousin's property. And just watching all these tradesmen work together, doing it from the goodness of their heart, not charging, you know, all the materials, just this whole community kind of pulled together to build this house for these people. [00:10:42]
And it wasn't like there was some traumatic event that brought them all together. It's just pulling from years of experience of being a part of kingdom economy.
We tend to fear so much about being provided for, but it's kingdom economy. It all kind of works and floats around. It's got its own currency in a sense that the Lord uses. So that's where that phrase kind of came from.
Laura Dugger: In our series so far, it's been fun to hear the best parts of every schooling option. Now I'm eager to also get to hear your perspective as a homeschooling mother of five. But going back, is that always what you and your husband plan to do for education?
Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely not. We raised our children in the area that I grew up in. I went to a private Christian school, small little Christian school. I had planned on sending my children there. In fact, they started in that school. [00:11:42] Two of my children started in that school. And all of the friends that I had grown up with our community, they all sent their kids to this school. So there was just this beautiful community-based relational experience raising our kids together in this school.
When the Lord started prompting, when He started kind of challenging us, that threw me for a loop. It was like, wait, what? But you know that I'm selfish Lord. You know, that I like my own time. I like my house clean. And it's not like we were coming from a bad situation where we were fleeing and needed to homeschool. We had a great situation going on.
So just kind of felt out of left field, to be honest, when we originally felt that stirring. But we dove into the word, we prayed, we sought the Lord, like, "Is this really what you want us to do? And He was so clear through scripture and through just us seeking out counsel from mentors and elders that it was what our family was supposed to do. [00:12:50] So it was not on my radar. I didn't know anything about it before the Lord truly just prompted us to do so.
Laura Dugger: And of the schooling options, I would say that homeschooling provides the most unique schedule. Will you help us understand what type of rhythms or schedule you maintain most weeks?
Jodi Mockabee: Yeah. So probably the first, I want to say two to three months when we started our journey, and I think we're going into our 11th year of homeschooling, the first couple of months, I really thought that I was headed into a certain direction or a philosophy on homeschooling. Since it was spirit-led from the beginning, I was relying on the Lord 100% to help guide us in our homeschooling journey. Because I really didn't know what we were doing. And thank the Lord He did.
I remember Him prompting me... I was watching my kids and I was thinking, There's not this like fire in them. They're not excited about this. What do I do? [00:13:51] What do I change in order to make them excited?
And I remember him kind of prompting me like watch for the light in their eyes when they do get excited. So I did. I started paying attention to what they were doing. And what I learned was when I read aloud to them and we discussed the books, they just became alive. I mean, the spark, the twinkle was there, there was so much discussion. Even my two-year-old twins were into it. There was just a lot of unity when we would read aloud together.
So He helped me kind of throw the curriculum out the window and everything that I had relied on in the first few months to make sure that I was doing things quote-unquote, "right". He kind of said, "Ditch it and follow what lights them up."
That's when I discovered Charlotte Mason, which is literature-based education. You're basically essentially using books to teach your children all the different subjects. [00:14:52] And it's just a very holistic form of schooling.
So our schedule after those first few months changed to accommodate that type of schooling. So I would say that we are a pretty routine-based family in a lot of things that we do. It seemed kind of natural just to keep that routine going.
First thing in the morning, we would always get up and run and we continued to do that and continue to do it now. And then after the kids would run, they would do a little bit of independent work, anything that they didn't necessarily need me for. So that would be, you know, math. And if they were readers, they would read on their own for 45 minutes. They would do their own personal Bible devotional.
Those were all done before breakfast was even made. And we called those our daily disciplines. Those were just daily disciplines that you do on your own and you're responsible on your own to get them done. [00:15:52] Then we would have breakfast. Everyone would kind of make breakfast together.
After our breakfast, we would do what I call morning collective. And that is where we gather together and I read for anywhere from about an hour and a half to three hours. Typically it's anywhere from four or five books to seven books that I read excerpts from.
And it starts with the Bible and it ends with whatever I had chosen for that day to end. But all of the different books cover some sort of different subject, you know. So there might be a book on Blaze Pascal. And that kind of covers the history of science and math. We might read a book on morals. So we just had all, all these different books that we would go through.
What I found too is after morning collective, they would be so inspired by one or two of the books that they would go outside and reenact and recreate what we had just read. [00:17:00] And it opened up all of this kind of organic form of play where they're whittling knives and making necklaces and pretending that they're in the Wild West or whatever it was, whatever book we were reading, they were so inspired by that, that they would kind of recreate it.
Then after a few hours of them playing outside, they'd come back in and we would notebook. That's kind of a process that we created on our own. Notebooking has been out there for a long time, but we really zeroed in on a specific technique of notebook.
That is where they narrate back a choice on their end, unless I assign it of a book that we had read that day. And so they narrate back and then they write about it. And they also illustrate. So we have binders and binders filled with these beautiful illustrations, narrations that are water colored.
I'm just so grateful for the Lord. [00:18:01] I would have never imagined any of that happening, but it truly has created just the most beautiful educational experience in our household. That was 10 years ago that we started that and we're still doing it today.
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Laura Dugger: If this is a new concept for someone and they're wondering, well, how much time then are you spending preparing for the next day or where did you find all of these books to cover all the subjects, how would you respond to some of those practical questions?
Jodi Mockabee: I actually wrote manuals. I wrote A Getting Started manual that covers our personal homeschool philosophy. It is truly a combination of Charlotte Mason, Waldorf, Montessori, classical. I've taken kind of the best of all of those and put them together to suit our family's needs.
And then having five kids, we live pretty simply. So that just kind of translated into our schooling experience too. Everything's about efficiency for me. So it was kind of how do we make it the most beautiful and the most efficient? [00:21:02]
And I learned that through education, you can simplify so much. There's so much extra busy work in public school, Christian school, homeschool even that is not enriching our children at all. It's just keeping them busy so that we feel like they're learning, but it's just busy work.
This is why grammar drives me bananas. At any school they start grammar, maybe second grade, you know, where you learn noun, pronoun, all of that stuff. They are still teaching it in college. And the reason why is because the kids forget every single year.
Well, why do you think they forget? Because there is zero interest. I don't know anyone who has ever fallen in love with the parts of speech.
But somehow we can put together sentences. Somehow we can write emails yet. They're reteaching this subject over and over and over. [00:22:03] And it's because we can't retain it because we're not interested in it.
So I just think if you can find where your kids get lit up, focus on that. Of course, they still need to read and write and do math, but you really want to focus on the things that bring light and life into your household, because that's what they're going to retain and hold on to.
If somebody's looking for help, I do have a website, Jodimockabee.com that has the getting started manual, and it also has the notebooking manual, and it will walk you through schedules and answer to simplifying your homeschool. So that's out there. I'm not trying to sell anything. But if people are interested in finding out kind of how we simplified our schooling and made it beautiful and somehow managed to learn through all of that, then you can kind of check that out.
Laura Dugger: We will put links in the show notes for today's episode so it makes it easy to access your website. [00:23:01] Jodi, you're such an intentional woman. So can you share more ways that you have set up your life in such a way that your entire family pursues wholeness?
Jodi Mockabee: First I probably should give a little disclaimer that I don't think it's ever natural for any member of our family to pursue wholeness. I think our sinful tendencies will always drive us to make more selfish decisions.
I wouldn't say currently that any of my kids naturally are pursuing wholeness. At this moment, you know, I have a 17-year-old, 15-year-old, 13-year-old, and two 11-year-olds. And out of the five, only two diligently choose to wake up and run or work out. The other three, I still have to say, "Let's do our daily discipline."
So that kind of just gives you an idea that we haven't raised this unicorn family, that they're all disciplined and pursuing wholeness on their own. [00:24:09] It's really about habits and discipline.
Probably it goes back to my heritage. When we were talking about my grandparents, my grandpa ran every day until he 24 hours before he died. So he was a disciplined person and just showed that just methodical little tiny habits throughout the day add up to something.
And so with homeschooling, I would say that's the same thing. You do not need a grand plan with all these boxes to check and everything. But if you can hold on to certain disciplines, you'll just see how they add on to each other.
I think that's kind of how the holistic approach in our family unraveled was noticing that everything's kind of interconnected. So if I can get my family to exercise daily, the attitudes, the countenance of my children is so much happier, so much higher in our household. [00:25:10]
And then you start noticing, well, if they have eggs for breakfast instead of cereal, they're more grounded. That protein just kind of is exactly what their body needs versus the sugar. So you start making tiny little changes and tweaks to start recognizing how every little decision impacts your family.
I think ultimately the end goal is peace. Having five children, five under five, it was noisy. There's a lot of needs. I have a son that's on the spectrum. So there was extra needs on his end. So there's always just people tugging for affection and need and help and all of it.
For me, it was trying to grasp some way to find a peace within our family. So I just started recognizing everything so interconnected, our bodies, our spirits, our minds. And so if we can somehow tweak things to where we're thriving in one or the other, you start noticing where you're not thriving and you want to work on that too. [00:26:17] That's kind of where this whole and healthy family philosophy came from.
Laura Dugger: Yes. I love in your book how you do break down focusing on mind, body, spirit, and then like you said, how they're interconnected and ways that exercise and fitness go hand in hand with moral training. Anything else you would like to add there?
Jodi Mockabee: I don't think so. I think it could be really overwhelming to just see the big picture and think like, where do I start there? And to the mom that kind of knows that maybe there needs to be some changes in our household or something, just start with one habit.
My favorite response from the book is hearing families that the one thing they took from it was the fitness aspect. And they started running together in the morning or going on a walk together in the morning and it changed their entire day. And it does. That's what exercise does. And it doesn't have to be at the gym or a run. I mean, it could be hard work. [00:27:20] It could be working on the garden. It could be putting up a fence together or something. It's just getting those endorphins going, but it really does change your day.
If you can see the effect of a good decision of a new habit being made like that, the rest will unravel itself. So to the mom that's feeling a little bit overwhelmed, just start with one habit and you'll see how much more that gives you. And then you'll want to start on another one.
Laura Dugger: We've had some fantastic guests in this series who have represented the best parts of public school and private education. So now with your experience, what are some of the wonderful aspects of your lifestyle that are specifically available because you're home-educating your children?
Jodi Mockabee: You know, the answer to that will be different every single year. I'll give you my current answer. The early years, the answer would have been it really simplified. [00:28:21] It taught us how to slow down. It taught us how to savor. It built a bond in my children that you just cannot build with limited time together.
We were together all day, every day exploring things together and learning things together. So during that time, I would say it built this just beautiful foundation of learning together and growing together.
Then I would say right now in this stage that we're at, I've got two high schoolers, one junior higher into an elementary school. I am able to cater to each one of them in such different ways. The early years, we all kind of focused in together on this philosophy and notebook together and did everything together. Now I'm able to see their gifts and their strengths and their weaknesses and build an academic plan based on what they need or what they're good at. [00:29:21]
My oldest son is very academic. He has been taking college classes for three years. He's a senior this fall and we've been able to just kind of push him academically. He has attended three different colleges. And so if you're in kind of a public school system or even a private school system, you're all about the next step and kind of sticking to that and not quitting.
Well, homeschoolers are like, no, you do what works for you, what lights the fire, and then when it no longer works, you can switch tactics. And so he's truly an example of that. He started at an engineering school. We did some classes there that really worked with him, but then the trajectory was going to be too intense for a 14-year-old. So then we brought him over to a Christian classical college and he was able to learn rhetoric and some of these subjects that really required higher levels of thinking. [00:30:21] That really stretched him there.
And then we decided let's bring him back to the engineering school. He took some more classes there. And so now this semester, he has decided he wants to learn business and so now he'll be attending a different school where he'll be taking business classes.
So we have been able to just follow his needs and cater his education accordingly. I love that. I love that he's getting exposure to engineering and STEM, but then also rhetoric and classical education. And now he'll get to learn accounting and marketing strategies. I just think there is no one-size-fits-all-all. And so where homeschooling comes in is you are able to really cater to each of your children's gifts.
My second son loves working. Since the age of 10, he has had a job. He loves working. He works at a cattle ranch. He knows the ins and outs of everything from shoveling cow poop to artificially inseminating their best cows, you know, sells the bowls. [00:31:28] He's a part of all of it.
He's able to do that. He's working two, three days a week. And we cater his school towards that by adding extra academics in the other two days but really just being strategic about making sure that he's getting those needs met without being overloaded so that he can work, which is what he loves to do.
So it just shows you that as you grow in homeschooling, you're able to kind of outsource a bunch of things to cater exactly to that child.
Laura Dugger: It sounds like the opportunities are endless in homeschooling, but I also think that we typically hear the most fear arising in people who are parents who are about to try homeschooling for the first time. I think there's more fear there than sending your children to public or private school. I'm sure you get so many of these myths that your children aren't going to be socialized or how are they going to perform academically? [00:32:26]
Are there any other myths that you've heard or encouragement you could give to the parents who are about to begin homeschooling for their first time?
Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I mean, the Bible says it best. We're the ones to be teaching in the day, all throughout the day. Also, all you need to do is look at history and see that the majority of people have been home-educated.
Public education is a new concept. It's only 150 years old. But you look back thousands of years and children were taught within their homes. I would say, lean into that, know that you're equipped. Kids are remarkable human beings. We are remarkable human beings. We are so capable of learning.
I never respond well to fluffy encouragement, but I want facts and information. I want to hear studies and numbers and all of that. [00:33:23] So a story will probably speak much better than just me encouraging a mama or a dad who's listening.
I have a friend born and raised together. She decided to homeschool shortly after we did, you know, 10 years ago, and decided right away that she wanted to take this unschooling path with her daughter. For those who don't know what unschooling is, it's basically being completely hands-off of your child's education. It was a philosophy developed in the 70s. It definitely has a 70s movement style to it because it's all about freedom.
They believe that your child will self-learn and teach themselves whatever they need because it's driven by their own interests. And if they find a love for math, they're going to figure out a way to learn it because it will get them to where they want to be. So that's kind of the source of unschooling is rather than feeding your kids a bunch of information, let them discover it on their own. [00:34:26] And when you own that information yourself, you're going to do much more with it, which I do love a lot of the belief behind the philosophy.
So, anyways, my friend decides to unschool her daughter. Her daughter's extremely dyslexic so was never able to read up until she took her out of school. I think she took her out of school when she was in third grade. So she still was not reading in the third grade.
She took her in. She did not do any math. She did not do any reading, any subjects. She let her daughter just listen to audiobooks all throughout the day. She had her daughter help her with her Etsy store. They just kind of did life together. They gardened together. They hiked together. They made food together. There was no schooling going on with this child.
Well, the mom kind of decides that she's ready for her daughter to go back to school in the eighth grade. [00:35:26] So between the third grade and the eighth grade, this daughter had zero education. Okay. From what we would consider education, you know, the worksheets and the curriculum and everything like that.
I will say in those years... she's a close friend, so I was able to watch this daughter. This daughter started her own business on Etsy, taught herself multiple skills. Like she taught herself how to sew. She taught herself how to do all these amazing things.
Meanwhile, she's listening to like Pride and Prejudice. I think she even listened to Anna Karenina when she was 12 or something like that, all on audiobooks. Never really wrote that much. She figured out how to write because she started this Etsy business. She figured out math because of this Etsy business. There was no math curriculum.
So she sends her back to eighth grade and we're all, all the friends are just anticipating what is going to happen. [00:36:28] And she puts her in this very rigorous school and we're just like, "Oh, this poor girl is going to fail and it's going to make homeschooling look bad." That girl made straight A's the entire year. She thrived.
I feel like that's the biggest win ever because do you know what school is? It's systems. Our brains know how to detect systems very easily. And so as soon as you figure out the system that even math is a series of systems of algorithms of formulas, you know. As soon as you learn how to figure out systems, you can ace it. It's just whether or not you want to.
This girl with no, what we would call education reentered the world of education and made straight A's. I mean, she got better grades than the kids that had been there since kindergarten. I just think that's a true testimony of we are created to adapt so quickly to whatever environment that we're in. [00:37:36] For those people that think your kid is going to be behind or whatever, they might, but they'll catch up very quickly. It's just part of the human brain. So I wouldn't be too worried about it.
I talked earlier about formal grammar. We've never done formal grammar in our household. My kids don't know what an adjective is, but my son has been able to go through multiple English classes. I ran into one of his professors and I didn't know her, but she saw him and recognized him. And she came over to me and she said, "He has written a paper that I will never forget. I want to tell you that he's an amazing writer." And I just thought, Good thing I didn't waste my time on grammar and take that love of the written word away from him.
So I don't know. There's a lot to be said on this subject. But I would just say, let's reinvent what you think education is. And it truly is just about learning. [00:38:36] It's not about learning facts or information or systems or anything like that. It's just about learning and walking through life and learning new skills and a lot of problem-solving. And I feel like homeschooling has certainly allowed our kids to learn problem-solving a lot earlier on because mom's not there to provide this crazy system for them. They have to figure things out on their own.
Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at TheSavvySauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox.
Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. [00:39:44] We hope you check out all the available reads at TheSavvySauce.com under the articles tab.
Jodi, before we pressed record, we were talking about how homeschooling and parenting really overlap. So do you have any other practical tips for parenting and homeschooling that you'd like to share?
Jodi Mockabee: Yeah. I mean, I would say if you can parent, you can homeschool. Homeschooling is just an extension of parenting. It is very relational. It requires habits. And so through habits, that's what we're teaching as parents.
And I would feel like if you want to encourage yourself or give yourself the tools to succeed with homeschooling, then I would focus on your parenting first. I have a friend who spent an entire year of homeschooling on character development. So she researched a bunch of different books that would really work on character for her own kids so that they would really be able to figure out how to choose the right decisions, how to respect mom. [00:40:49]
That year was not wasted. It set a foundation for the rest of her schooling journey because they worked so much on the character of their children during that year.
As far as parenting and homeschooling being interconnected, I would just encourage you to really focus on your parent-child relationship and understand that that's going to carry itself all the way through, that the relationship is going to be connected to the schooling experience for all of you.
I'll never forget, I was really frustrated — this is probably, I don't know, five years ago or something like that, maybe more — that my kids would... they would huff and puff if I asked them to do something like take the trash out or something like that. And I just kept thinking like, "Oh, these kids are so entitled. When are they going to get gritty?" Why can't they just work hard and put their chin down? They need more adversity. They need to live in the inner city and experience hard things." [00:41:50]
You know, I like went way far, and I'm sure every parent can relate, to the overthinking of my kids are doomed because we've created soft children or something like that. But in my quest for the answer of this, I searched books about creating grit in children basically. And I came across this book, How Children Succeed. And it totally changed my perspective on creating kids that are headed to success.
I thought for sure it would be adversity. I'm having them do hard things, pushing them, you know, all of that. And it came down to two things: attachment and accountability.
Children who have healthy attachment and healthy accountability, whether it's a parent or a mentor in their life go further. And there's these like studies that they have of these inner city kids in Chicago. They did this whole experiment where they brought mentors into their life and the amount of time that the mentors spent with them. [00:42:55]
So if the mentor was in their life for six months, their socioeconomic status would rise a little bit higher. If the mentor was in their life for a year, their status would rise even higher. They would go from, you know, minimum wage to the next level. And it showed how you can get these kids out of this oppressive system through accountability and attachment.
He also gives a lot of other examples, but I just thought that is mind-blowing. So this whole time we're thinking that we need to give them this and give them that. And really it comes down to the attachment and the accountability.
So to break it down from a parental perspective, it would be relationship and mentorship, you know, discipleship. How are you holding your children accountable when they're little looks more like consistency and discipline.
Now we're in these teenage years. It looks a lot like conversations and praying for natural consequences. [00:43:55] Having teens... I don't think it works out well when you have a bunch of rules and you discipline your teens. It just makes sneaky kids in my opinion.
By the time that they're teens, you want that relationship built so that it's all built on trust and conversation. And so you can talk about sex. You can talk about social media. You can talk about alcohol and drugs and all the things that they're being faced with or that they see their friends doing or any of that. And it's just an open conversation. And so you have that accountability there.
So the early years you work on all of that attachment so that then the accountability is very relational. I don't know if that makes sense, but I would say that's kind of how parenting and homeschooling is interconnected.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Then even bringing it down to some themes also that you've spoken throughout this time together, just about reading and outdoor play. Is there anything practical you would want to leave us with on those two topics? [00:44:58]
Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I think creating your home environment is really important if you choose homeschooling. Even if you don't. I know some families that don't homeschool, but you would walk into their home and they have this like healthy learning environment. They have instruments out. They have baskets of books laying around, high-quality art supplies for their kids to dabble with. I call that strewing.
And so creating this environment where you can leave things out for your children to discover, to discover on their own versus you just, you know, feeding it to them, that connection is so important for them to find something out on their own and take joy and pleasure in it versus you telling them, "This is what it is. Now go use it." There's such a different mental process for a kid to explore something on their own.
I think creating a home environment where you allow your children to have access to these things, to art supplies, to books, to instruments, you never know what's going to take on a new interest for them. [00:46:06] So that would be kind of one part.
The play aspect is just, you want to leave a lot of margin for your children to play and discover. It depends on the age of your child, but in the earlier years, ours, I think our schedule for the day allowed for at least five hours of outdoor play.
So there would be some time after lunch where they got about two hours of outdoor play. And then sometime after notebooking where they would play. We chose during those years not to do any organized activities, no gymnastics, no sports, because we felt that play and time together would benefit them much more than all of these outside-of-the-home activities.
I don't know if that's a one-size-fits-all for all families, but I know it allowed our kids to really explore each other and in the environment and nature. And they just were able to use everything they learned in school. [00:47:06] I'm thinking of the book Island of the Blue Dolphins.
We had read that years and years ago. And I remember walking outside to see the kids, they had set up a camp and they had their pocket knives and they were whittling and they started a fire. We had this mud kitchen area with a fire ring that they were allowed to start campfires and cook food on. They made it all happen. I didn't have to create any of that for them. The book set up the scene and they went and made it their own.
But they wouldn't have had that if they had to go to a sports practice or to gymnastics or something like that. So that wide open time to just play and explore and discover is I think essential in the early years.
In the later years, this is where it gets a little trickier and you just spend a lot of time on your knees, praying for guidance for the Lord to just really help you figure out what's best for your kids developmentally as they become teenagers. [00:48:08]
For us, it shifted a lot of what our family did. So we started doing some sports for the boys to get that testosterone out to physically push themselves further to be a part of a team. And so it started looking different. But I took my son out to dinner last night, my oldest son, he's 17, and we just had the best time talking about... he started telling me some of the things that happened when I wasn't outside when they were little, you know, catching snakes, making bombs, like all these things that mom did not want to know about.
And it was the most delightful conversation, even though now we have probably more of a typical family involved in sports and doing these things. He's an avid rock climber. He is outside all the time. He chooses to go on hikes. If he can't get friends to go with him, he'll go by himself. He's just the most incredible kid who has such a thirst for adventure. [00:49:11] And I think that comes from the foundation of hours and hours of creative play where there was not a lot of activities that were on the calendar. So that's a long-winded answer, but hopefully somebody got something from that.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I think you're illustrating how play is that higher form of learning. One time you summarized it so well when you just said, "Exhausted children equal better-behaved children." And it sounds like that applies to many ages.
Jodi Mockabee: It does. We've even discovered, even as teenagers, idle time is... what do they say? Idle time is the devil's work. With teenagers, we have found that they have got to stay actively busy. Otherwise, you know, I have two kids with phones now, they'll just sit on the couch and be on their phone.
They need to be busy. They need to be working. They need to be hiking. They need to be involved in things. Keeping them busy and physically tired makes them sleep well at night. They're not up all night on phones or video games or whatever. [00:50:18] It all has a purpose. And starting young just sets you on the trajectory to making those choices and letting them see that when they're older.
One of my boys took on a second job because he just realized I have too much free time. Like, "I'm not getting as many hours as I wanted in this one job, so I'm going to take on another job because I don't want to sit around and be bored all day." So it's just fun to watch them figure that out on their own, that they need to be more active so that they sleep well and wake up and do the same thing the next day.
Laura Dugger: That's so fascinating to see that pattern, too, and that wisdom in leaving margin when they're younger to be active. And yet that turns into filling it wisely as they progress toward adulthood.
Jodi, as we start to wind down this conversation, for any parents who are just trying to decide after hearing all these options and they're looking into which school option is best for their family, will you just share a few more of your favorite reasons to recommend that they consider home educating their children? [00:51:26]
Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I think first and foremost, probably the time that you have with your children, that beyond academics, you have the ability to disciple your children from such an early age and do it throughout the years and put things into their heart that you wouldn't have the opportunity to do in the small window of time that you get when they're home from school.
The other would be the flexibility to go and learn and explore and be more hands-on in life. You can travel, you can hike, you can discover, you can do museums. Wherever you're living, you can take advantage of so much more because you have the freedom to do that.
We don't love large groups of people. We don't enjoy doing much in the summertime as far as camping or anything like that because there are so many people doing it. But homeschooling allows you, as soon as school starts, you have the museums to yourself, you have the camp spots to yourself, you have so much more peace because you can choose to be flexible with that. [00:52:33] The flexibility has been another one that I just wouldn't trade for the world.
Then the sibling relationships, that again comes down to time. And they're spending so much time together and they're building so many memories together. There is just something really special about learning alongside of each other.
I think about what that does when moms go to conferences together or something like that. Essentially, they're doing the same thing. They're learning alongside of one another. There's a bonding that happens when you're opening your mind to learning. Imagine what that does with your children as siblings. That's a lot of just special memories and bonding going on there. Definitely for the sibling relationships.
Then the last one I would say is just the content that you are able to share with your children. It is incredible how you can bring in morality and character into nearly every book that you read. [00:53:34] There are so many lessons to be learned through history and through other people's stories.
Learning together alongside one another and being able to highlight the good and the bad. That doesn't mean hiding them from tragedy or anything like that. We've studied some really hard topics in our family, but what a privilege for me to be the one that creates the narrative behind that story.
I don't want somebody else with their own bias or their own political or moral perspective, I don't want them telling my kids what to think about that. I want to open up the conversation, ask my kids what they think about it. What does the Bible say about it? What does the Lord think about that? Being able to cater the books that you read, your education to the highest moral ground, which would be the Bible, God's word, is by far probably the most important part of homeschooling. [00:54:34]
I hope that has given enough tools for people to, if they have it on their heart, I don't believe that everybody should homeschool, but if you have it on your heart, if the Holy Spirit is prompting you to do it, then just to encourage you that there are so many benefits to it.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. You have shared so much goodness with us. Can you remind us where we can go after this chat to continue learning more from you?
Jodi Mockabee: Absolutely. I have my book, The Whole and Healthy Family. And that is not a homeschooling book. It's more about our story as parents in the early years. You can get that book if you'd kind of to learn a little bit about our habits and systems and just hear our family's story. You can go to my website, JodiMockabee.com.
I never intended to sell curriculum or anything, but through my Instagram page, which is just @JodiMockabee, I would get so many questions about how we did things or how to find those resources or what our schedule is, or all the homeschooling questions that I ended up just creating studies and these manuals. [00:55:47]
Even we put a lot of our scripture to song, and so I started recording us singing scripture for memorization, and we sell that on the site. It's all just because it's what we've done, and we just decided to allow other people to have the opportunity to take part in the same stuff and be able to benefit a little bit from that and continue on camping and skiing and doing all the things that we do as we share kind of our homeschooling world with other people. So that's on JodiMockabee.com. That will give you all kinds of resources to be able to set up a kind of holistic homeschool.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Again, we will link to all of this in the show notes for today's episode. Jodi, you're familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:56:46]
Jodi Mockabee: Okay, so I feel like I, you know, biblically should say reading my Bible. But I hope that just goes without question, that time with the Lord is always a good thing to do and will put your mind in the right spot, and your heart in the right spot. But I would say as a family, our getting up in the morning and going on a run, that's probably our savvy sauce. It just shakes all the cobwebs out. It starts our day. Everyone is awake and alert and tired.
You mentioned it yourself, but tired kids are good kids. So it just starts the whole family off on the right foot so that then we can focus on the Word and learning and being together. Our countenance is just a little higher because of it.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Well, Jodi, I've read and enjoyed your book, and now I've had a blast getting to chat with you today. [00:57:47] You are so inspiring and just delightful to be with. So thank you for being my guest.
Jodi Mockabee: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. This was really fun, and hopefully, we can do it again.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:58:49] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:59:49]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [01:00:49]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 11, 2023
Monday Sep 11, 2023
211. School Series: Benefits of Public School with Kelsey Kirk
Proverbs 3:13 (NIV) "Blessed are those who find wisdom, those who gain understanding,"
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
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What is something you teach that is unique?
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What systems have you put into place in your own classroom that have been most beneficial?
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From your perspective, what are a few benefits of children attending public school?
Kelsey Kirk is an enthusiastic educator, who has taught for seven years. She is faith driven and aims to show God's love, grace, and patience through her words and actions in and outside of the classroom. Kelsey holds a master's degree in reading and is currently pursuing her second masters in professional school counseling. Outside of school, Kelsey enjoys spending time with her large family and her friends (bonus points if Pickleball is involved!).
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Other Episode Mentioned from Savvy Sauce:
200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
We are continuing our series to learn from teachers in various schooling options, public, private, and homeschool. Today, we get to learn from public school teacher Kelsey Kirk.
When we moved homes and schools last year, Kelsey was a godsend as a third-grade teacher for our eldest daughter, Selah. She is enthusiastic, faith-driven, and committed to showing God's love inside and outside the classroom. I hope this school series continues to challenge and equip parents to ponder which option may be best for their children at this time. [00:01:20]
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kelsey.
Kelsey Kirk: Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited for this opportunity to chat with you today.
Laura Dugger: Well, will you just begin by sharing your personal testimony with us?
Kelsey Kirk: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up in Morton, Illinois. I actually am the baby of six kids, so I grew up with a big, fun family filled with just so many activities and chaos, but just beautiful, fun chaos. Grew up actually going to private school. So, preschool through sixth grade, I attended a Lutheran private school. Then I transitioned to the public junior high and high school. So, I do have a little bit of experience both in the private sector and in the public sector.
I was raised in a Lutheran church as well, so I had that experience growing up. Faith has always been a very big part of my life. I've always known, actually, that I've wanted to teach. [00:02:21]
So, I've said from very, very young, even when I was little and people would ask me what I wanted to do, I would always say that I wanted to be a teacher. And anytime that I had friends over and they would allow me to, I would always say, let's play school. And I would get out my markers and get out my crayons and pretend to be a teacher. It's just always been something that's been very enticing. I did go down that path, and now I have been a teacher for... I finished my seventh year. So, going into this year will be my eighth year teaching, and I still love it.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. It's kind of funny to picture our eldest daughter, Selah. Right now, you and I are getting to record in person in our home. And in the room next to us right now that you can't see, our children have school set up, and typically Selah is the teacher for Shiloh and Isla and Kessler. So, they are following in your footsteps with that.
But like you said, for seven years, you've educated children in a public school setting. [00:03:21] So, what do you love most about your job?
Kelsey Kirk: I love working with kids. The kids are absolutely the best part of my job. I take so much pride and put so much effort into creating strong relationships with my students, relationships that will last and continue with them even after they're out of my class.
But I really, really love seeing in class how my students grow and those light bulb moments when you can tell their understanding, especially in the elementary setting. They show all their emotions on their face. So, when they have those aha moments and they're excited, that just fills me to the brim. I just love seeing those moments with students.
I love how every single day is different. You truly never know what you're going to get when you go to school that day, but I do know every single day we're going to laugh. There's going to be so many great moments of just laughter. I think that's so important as well. [00:04:27]
The learning is fantastic and such a priority, but I also want it to be a fun space that students want to go to and that I want to be in, right, that I have fun in every day. So, I love the kids, and I love the fun that we have every day.
Laura Dugger: And that makes sense, even getting to witness you, you're so gifted at relationship building. And with those students, I'm assuming that they're more open to learn when they trust you and they're in a warm, inviting relationship. But are there any practical ways that come to mind that you really try and engage with each of them? Because you're having class sizes over 25 kids.
Kelsey Kirk: Right. Yes, I do think you have to be very intentional. One of my goals is to make sure that I am giving students specific praise and that I'm varying it. But it can be challenging, like you said, when you have so many different students. [00:05:26] I actually have a checklist. It's a Google form, basically, that has all my students' names, and it has all the months of the school year. And every time that I give a student, like, a specific shout-out for something, let's say, I could really tell that they were putting in a solid effort with something, it was challenging them, but they did not give up, and they really used their determination, I really try to make sure to vocalize that specific compliment to them.
And then I will try afterwards to remember to check their box. And so I know that I've hit that student, but I can see the ones that I haven't hit yet. And then I can be more intentional about watching those students and making sure that I'm checking all of their boxes. Because, you know, the day is long, and it can get busy, and it can get chaotic. Some days, at the end of the day, I don't remember who all I made sure I touched base with. So, having a little checklist definitely helps me. But I want every student to know that they are special, and they have specific and special gifts. [00:06:28] So, just trying to touch on those for every student is important.
Laura Dugger: That's super helpful, even as a parent, that you've not only had that vision that you want to add specific encouragement to them, but you've put this system in place that makes it a habit, and so it actually happens. That is such a great takeaway, so thank you for sharing that.
Kelsey Kirk: Of course.
Laura Dugger: Is there anything that you teach that is unique that maybe isn't available in all the other schooling options?
Kelsey Kirk: Obviously, in the public school sector, we do have a pretty particular and specific curriculum that we have to follow for all of the academic topics. So, all of those curriculums have been reviewed throughout the district, and we make sure that those are really rich and robust for the student learning, which is fantastic. And I think the academics are such a huge part to school. But that happens in every public school. Those academic pieces are really important. I really try to add in the social-emotional component to all of my academics. [00:07:32]
So, the academics, like I said, are super, super important, and I try to tie in those social-emotional learning pieces when I can. For example, in math, if a question is really challenging, we might take a quick break and say, "This is so challenging. What do we do when something is really challenging us? How do we problem-solve through that?" Or if a student gets an answer incorrect, and, you know, you can tell the other students are really knowing that that was an incorrect answer, we can take a pause and say, "Hey, that answer wasn't correct this time. What do we do when we make a mistake, or how do we handle it when we're wrong?" Just really trying to be purposeful about tying in as much social-emotional learning as I can throughout the entire day, and all the academic subjects as well.
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful, and sounds like such an organic way to teach them that, because then any situation can really be a teaching moment or opportunity. [00:08:35] Do you have any other kind of systems that you've put in place in your own classroom that you've seen now have been most beneficial?
Kelsey Kirk: I feel like I could go on and on and on about this forever, because there are so many different things I have learned from teachers that I have so much respect for. I really do love that teaching is such a community space, basically, between teachers. Teachers are always so willing to help other teachers, which I'm so thankful for.
I'm so thankful that there are spaces like Instagram, now that you can follow other teachers, and Pinterest, where you can get so many different ideas. I've definitely taken great things from all of those spaces.
But one thing that I have found super beneficial in my class, a system that I have, is our goal-setting system. Every Friday, my class will sit down in a family meeting. We call it a family meeting or a family circle. [00:09:33] And we sit down in a circle on the floor, and we have a very candid conversation about what went well that week, and we celebrate what went well. But then we also have a conversation about what they think was not going well that week.
It's really surprising, honestly, how quickly the students are able to have really kind of vulnerable conversations about what they need to work on. So, I really let the students lead that conversation, especially once we get deeper into the school year and we've worked on it. But the students will identify three goals that they would like to work on as a group for the next week.
So, maybe they've noticed that students are shouting out a lot, and that's been distracting to them. And so, they make a goal that the following week, they would like to only have 10 times that someone is shouting out. We try to make them really specific so that we can actually measure those goals. And then when we sit back down that next Friday, we talk about, did we meet the goal that we set last week?
So, on Friday, we set those goals, usually around three goals. [00:10:36] On Monday morning, when we get to school we will review what goals we're working on for that week. And on Friday, when we sit back down for a family meeting again, we touch base to see if we've met those goals. And then if we're going to, you know, check off that goal and move on to another goal, or if we're going to continue working on that same goal for the next week.
Laura Dugger: I'm even envisioning this as... I wonder if tears come up at this point. Are there ever times where there's interpersonal relationships where they're working out conflict? Maybe somebody wasn't kind to another student. Is it that kind of conversation that arises as well?
Kelsey Kirk: I do set up pretty strict expectations at the beginning of the year that there will be times that we are, you know, talking about things that aren't going well. And maybe you will feel in your heart like that is something you really need to personally work on. But I do tell the students going into all those conversations that we are a team. [00:11:37] Our class is a team. The point of this conversation is never to make anyone feel bad. So we will not ever be naming names.
All of these conversations, we're working on having these conversations to grow. We're not having these conversations just to complain or to kind of tattle on anyone. That is not the purpose.
So when we're stating what we need to work on, the students do not say, Oh, you know, so and so and so and so keep shouting out. They say, I would like us to work on raising our hand more. And try to really help them learn how to state what behavior they would like to have instead of just complaining about the negative behavior, if that makes sense.
Laura Dugger: That totally makes sense. I want to clarify, not in a negative way, tears coming up. I just envision this being such great training for interpersonal relationships in all aspects of adulthood, whether this is employer-employee relationships or coworkers or marriage, or in parenting. [00:12:41] And so I wondered when you were saying that they were owning their own things... I wonder... it sounds like a lot of transparency comes up, which is awesome.
Kelsey Kirk: I will say there are students who will say then and be vulnerable and say, I know that that is something that I need to work on, you guys, and I'm going to work on it. I have definitely had moments where students have spoken up and been vulnerable and said, "I really am going to work on that." And it's so beautiful how the kids react just like with empathy and grace. And they're like, "You've got this. You can do it." That's awesome. So it is fun.
I will say another component to that family meeting after we do the goal setting is compliments. The students I have a bag with all their pictures in it and they pass around the bag and they just randomly pull a picture. They have to look that student in the eye and tell that student something awesome that they had done during that week.
I tell the students it cannot be about what the person looks like on the outside, anything that they're wearing, or how they look. It needs to be about something that's on the inside about their heart or something that they had done that brought joy to that other student. [00:13:48]
So at the beginning of the year, that's really challenging for them. So they have a hard time maintaining eye contact when they're giving the compliment and they really want to say something like, "I like your shoes." But by the end of the year, the depth of their compliments bring students to tears when they're receiving the compliments.
To be honest, there are a lot of Fridays that I am moved to tears by the beautiful things that the students are noticing in each other that I had no idea. I had no idea those things were happening, but the students were noticing those things in each other. And it's just a really, really lovely experience.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I'm even getting teary-eyed just envisioning it now because you hear of children who exchanged compliment lists and how, you know, 30 years later you find it in their wallets and how meaningful that is. [00:14:44] And so very much appreciate that impact that you're having on all of these students.
Are there any other systems that you can think of?
Kelsey Kirk: Yes. Another thing that kind of goes along with that empathy piece and being kind to each other is teaching students about the zones of regulation. At my school, we focus on those zones being the green zone. You're ready to learn. You're doing great. You're feeling great. You're focused.
The blue zone might be you're feeling a little bit sad. Maybe you're feeling a little bit sleepy or just a little bit off.
Yellow zone is I'm starting to feel a little bit frustrated. I'm having a hard time. I can feel maybe my heart is racing or I'm feeling nervous.
Then the red zone is when I'm really having a hard time.
So we teach these zones. I teach these zones explicitly to the students and other people in the school do as well, like our school social worker. The students learn about these zones, but then they also learn how to get themselves back to the green zone. [00:15:49]
So we talk about if I'm in the yellow zone, what are some specific things I can do to get myself back to the green zone? Or if I see a friend who looks like they're in the blue zone, how could I partner with that friend to help get them back to the green zone?
So it really builds a lot of empathy within the classroom that we're not always all going to be in the green zone. There's going to be different times when you're in a different zone or a friend is in a different zone, and there's nothing wrong with that. That is just the human emotion and the human existence. But how can we all help each other to get back to the green zone?
So I've really seen that help so much with building empathy, especially when students see their peers struggling. Instead of shying away from it and looking away and thinking, you know, feeling uncomfortable by that, they learn how to approach those different emotions and partner with their peers to help them feel better. [00:16:46]
Laura Dugger: Wow. What is a specific example that you would give them, both if they are wanting to get back to the green zone themselves or they're trying to encourage their friend to get back there?
Kelsey Kirk: Absolutely. If a student themselves, let's say they're getting into the yellow zone and they're feeling frustrated, we do talk a lot about breathing exercises. You know, close your eyes for a second, take a couple deep breaths.
I work by third grade, which is the grade that I teach. I talk a lot with my students about telling themselves affirmations. So when you take a deep breath in, say an affirmation that will help you in that moment. Like if they were having a hard time with a problem and they know that they didn't get the problem correct and they're really struggling with that, they can close their eyes and breathe in and say, mistakes are okay. And then as they exhale, they say something else like "mistakes help me learn". So as they breathe in, mistakes are okay, exhale, mistakes help me learn. [00:17:49]
Then they just repeat that and say those two phrases five, ten times, however many breaths they need. Breath work is so important. I feel like pairing it up with an affirmation really helps even more. So that has been a wonderful thing. When students see someone else that is struggling.
A lot of times in school, we're taught the golden rule, which there's totally a place for that. Treat everyone as you would like to be treated. But not everyone likes to be treated the same in moments when they're feeling different emotions.
So we talk about that as well. Some students who are in the blue zone, they might want a hug that will really help. Other students that are in the blue zone just need a little bit of space. So I really encourage my students to approach that student if you're noticing that they're struggling and you might say something like, "Hey, you look like you might be in the blue zone. How could I help you to feel better?" And then coaching students through how to respond to that.
If you are having a hard time, you could say, "I would love a hug. That would really help." Or "I just need a little bit of space, but thanks for checking." Things like that. [00:18:58] But trying to encourage the students to advocate for what they need and teaching students that every response is going to be different because we are all different and we all need different things to feel better.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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[00:21:07] <music>
Laura Dugger: Well, Kelsey, one other system that comes to mind for me is from your classroom, Selah came home at the end of the school year and she drew up on a big poster board, mommy to-do list. I can't remember what it was called, but then she had post-its out. So if I was not available or if I was engaged in conversation with another one of her sisters, any of them could write a thought or a question or a request on a post-it note. And that way it doesn't escape their mind. So that came from your classroom. How does it work in your classroom?
Kelsey Kirk: That was something I found on Pinterest. That was very helpful. It's just a poster board and at the top of it, it says teacher to-do list. You talked and spoke on the class size. Last school year, I had 27 students in my class and they all have things to say all day long. And all of those things feel very important for them in the time that they're wanting to tell me, which is completely understandable. [00:22:11] But just like in parenting, I'm sure we don't always have the bandwidth to address all of those things in that exact moment.
But I don't want the student to feel like I'm just negating that or that I don't think it's important. So if it's not a great time to touch base on whatever they're wanting to chat about in that moment, I just say, Hey, could you jot that on a post-it note and put it on my to-do list? When we have a minute, you and I can touch base about that.
Or oftentimes it's just silly things like, don't forget we have a disassembly at this time. And I'm like, "Great, thank you so much for helping me with that. Jot it down on a post-it note, put it on the to-do list." And it just validates whatever they're trying to say but it also gives me the freedom as a teacher to continue doing whatever we're doing and then get to that when I have time.
Laura Dugger: Yes, that makes sense. I think it's very helpful, again, in a really practical way. Something I hadn't even thought of until this conversation, I want to sing your praises. [00:23:13] And it's something that you did so well at Christmas time, I believe it was over Christmas break, maybe, we were reading aloud a book at home. I want to say it's Christmas Stories from the Heart, something like that. But there's a collection of them. And one was really moving to Selah, a true story, where she was inspired to carry out what the kids in the book did, where they would... I think within their family, they drew a name of somebody to watch and serve and encourage and just show quiet acts of kindness.
She was so excited about this idea, and she brought it to you and you implemented this into the classroom. And she felt so validated for you to take her idea seriously. And that was such a highlight of her year. Because I think at the end of the week, they all had to guess who their secret encourager was.
Kelsey Kirk: So sweet that you say that. I'm so glad if she felt validated in that. Truly, when she brought that idea, I was like, "That is fantastic. I love that." [00:24:16] So basically how it worked was at the beginning of the week, on Monday, the students all drew someone's name, once again, completely random. And they felt like they were being so sneaky. Like it was so cute, even just watching them draw the names, because they would try to hide them. And so sweet.
Then throughout the week, you were supposed to focus on that student and try to give them as much encouragement and just show up for them in different ways. So we talked about different ways of how you could show up for that person. Like if you notice they have their hands full, maybe you could offer to carry something into the class for them. Or maybe their pencil box falls off their desk, and you're the first one to get up and go help them. Or maybe at recess, you could offer for them to play whatever game you're playing. If you can tell that they've done something different with their hair, you know, even give a compliment for things like that.
Then on Friday during that family meeting time, we started doing that as well. [00:25:20] So the students would have to guess who had them as their secret student. It was always so fun.
Laura Dugger: Well, thank you again for implementing that.
Kelsey Kirk: Of course.
Laura Dugger: What would you say you see as the most important thing for students to learn or master at a young age?
Kelsey Kirk: I think a very, very important skill for students to learn in elementary school is problem-solving. Especially in the elementary level when the problems are often smaller, they can build their confidence with their problem-solving. And then that just builds the building blocks for them to be able to problem-solve larger problems into adulthood.
So I really, really focus on having open-ended problems that the students have to work through, either individually or with a team. I think there's a ton of value in having a diverse group of students that all come from different backgrounds. Their parents all problem-solve differently, their siblings all problem-solve differently. But when they come into the classroom, they have to problem-solve together. [00:26:34]
So giving students problems that don't even necessarily have a correct answer and allowing them to talk through those problems, and then talk to different groups that have different opinions and almost have a healthy debate of this is our thought, this is our group's thought, and talk about the differences between them. I still want the students to be able to be confident in their decision and respectfully listen to a group that has a different opinion as them. So I think that kind of respectful debate and problem-solving is so, so important at such a young age.
Laura Dugger: What would you say is the most helpful way that you envision parents partnering with schools or partnering with teachers for the benefit of the children?
Kelsey Kirk: I am always so, so thankful when parents are willing to partner with me in the classroom. [00:27:33] Teachers are always wanting to be on a team with parents. We're never going against parents. We're always trying to come together for the benefit of all of our students.
I really, really appreciate when parents are willing to volunteer in the class and bring cheerful energy to the classroom. But I completely understand that that is not always an option for every parent. There are parents that work and can't always come in during the day. I love when parents even email and say, "Hey, is there anything you're out of in your classroom that I could bless your class with right now? Is there anything that you guys could use?" I'm always so thankful for that.
But I also really appreciate when parents support their kids and help their kids stay organized through the classroom. So when I send a folder home at the end of the day with mailbox papers, by third grade, which is what I teach, I really try to tell students that it's their responsibility to take their folder out when they get home and take those papers out and make sure their parents are seeing any papers that are necessary. [00:28:45] But I also understand that when students get home, they probably need a little support in that.
So I appreciate when parents help their students to stay organized. And I appreciate when parents encourage independence and accountability in their children. Just like I'm sure for parents, even as a teacher, when I see a student who is struggling with something, or they forgot something, or I so often want to go and rescue them from that feeling, right? Because you don't want them to sit in that discomfort always. But I have to remind myself that there is so much educational value and so much opportunity for growth and just letting them kind of have that natural consequence.
For example, if a student forgets an iPad, I'm not going to call home to say, "Please bring that iPad." I think that the student can learn more if they have to go that whole day without their iPad. We will be fine without it for a day, but they will probably feel that for a little bit. [00:29:45]
I really appreciate when parents allow their children to kind of have those natural consequences instead of rescuing them from all of those situations immediately, if that makes sense.
Laura Dugger: Yes. Because I'm assuming then the students even learn faster, maybe sometimes just with one occurrence where they feel the weight of that responsibility rather than the parents swooping in and owning the responsibility so the child doesn't feel that.
Kelsey Kirk: Absolutely. I will say also, I think emailing is an awesome way to communicate with teachers. So there will definitely be times that I send out whole class emails as communication, but there's also times where I email a parent about a specific situation with their student.
I also encourage parents always if they need clarification on something or if they're confused about something or want to know more about a situation, please, please email me. I always am happy to email back and have that communication. [00:30:47]
I will say this year I had even said at the beginning at Meet the Teacher, and I don't know if you remember this, but you were obviously in my Meet the Teacher, and for the first time this last school year, I made a point to say to all the parents, "Hey, my working hours are 8 o'clock to 3:30, and that's when I'm available for email. So if you email me after 3:30, I actually have my notifications turned off, I will not see your email until I get to school the next morning."
And I'm just setting that boundary so that I can take care of myself when I'm outside of school and I can rejuvenate so that I can show up to be the best I can for your students during the school day. And it felt hard, right? It felt very hard to set that boundary. Then afterwards, I don't know if you even remember, but you totally validated that for me, which I was so, so thankful for that you had said that afterwards.
It was a really, really great thing for me this year to just have those notifications off because we can be thinking about things all the time, right? [00:31:50] When I leave school, I am still constantly thinking about my students and thinking about how the day went and thinking about, you know, what things are happening at home. There's different family situations that I think about as well. So when I have those email notifications, that even just compacts on top of it.
So I think it's great to email, but I really, really appreciate when parents also respect the boundary that I am a person outside of school as well and I need to have a break outside of my working hours.
Laura Dugger: I very much remember that night. And as soon as you said it, Mark and I even turned to each other and we're just discussing it was such a great way to model how to be healthy and how to have appropriate boundaries and be very kind by being very clear upfront. So we actually really appreciated that. It does make sense that you have a life outside of school. So we really appreciate you stating that so clearly upfront.
Kelsey Kirk: Thank you. [00:32:49] I did just think about one more thing with emailing with parents this year that I had said. There was a note. It was called Handle with Care. I told the parents at the beginning of the school year, "If there is something that happened the night before or your student didn't get a great night of sleep or they woke up and you can tell in the morning they are having a more challenging day, please just send me an email. And you can just put in the subject line Handle with Care or HWC." I don't need to know all the details. I understand that there are things and families that you hold within your family.
But that just really, really helped me as a teacher to know when to give a student more grace. When I had that email in the morning and I knew that a student was struggling, I didn't need to talk to them necessarily about the specific thing that they were struggling with. But I really tried to be intentional that day to make it a great day at school for them. [00:33:49] To just notice something awesome that they were doing or give them a little bit more patience if they needed more reminders.
And I think that really helped me to make the learning space a place where students just felt safe even on the days when they weren't showing up at 100%.
Laura Dugger: I love that because I think it boils down to healthy communication between the parents and the teacher. And that relationship is very important and overflows into the child's relationship with both parent and teacher.
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Kelsey, what positive impact do you see public school making in the lives of students and the community?
Kelsey Kirk: I love how in public school students can make friends with kids that are outside of their direct neighborhood. I remember even when I was growing up, we would go outside and it was the people who lived within a biking range, right? You hop on your bike and that's your friend's circle.
I think it's really fun in schools that students get exposure to kids that live in different areas than they do and just exposure to more diversity. Different neighborhoods just bring different dynamics. And I think it's awesome in the public school setting that students have a little bit more exposure to that.
Laura Dugger: You even experienced that with going back to your personal life when you grew up in private school and then junior high and high school you attended public school. [00:35:56] So even speaking from that experience, was there any benefit that you saw specifically of your time in public school?
Kelsey Kirk: Mm-mm. In the private school that I went to, I had a great experience there and it was wonderful. No one in my neighborhood that I lived in went to that private school. I was the only one. I guess the neighbors directly next to me, they did. But the rest of the neighborhood who I hung out with, those kids all went to the public school.
A lot of times I felt like I was really missing out on the things that they were doing because they would come home and talk about the things that they were experiencing in school. And they were all kind of having that shared experience and I was having a completely separate experience as them.
So we could totally bridge that gap and it was fine. But I really loved once I went to the public school that the friends that I had made in my community, I was able to be with them and experience that school with them. [00:36:56]
Laura Dugger: This whole series has been a great opportunity to hear from various teachers in all these forms of schooling options. We share the common goal just to help parents consider what school setting may be a best fit for their family at this time. So from your perspective, what are a few benefits of children attending public school?
Kelsey Kirk: I will preface this by saying I think that education can be so different. The best thing is not always going to be public school for every child. Sometimes a student will thrive the most in homeschool. Sometimes they will thrive the most in private school.
And even within a family, I could see whereas one sibling would be great in one setting and another sibling would be great in another setting. So I think that it's great to be open-minded about the different opportunities and the different paths that people can go down. [00:37:57] I don't think there's anything wrong with even trying multiple paths throughout the schooling experience. You might try a private school and that might not be working. And so then you can transition, right? You're not set in stone on any of these paths once you start.
But I do think there are benefits to public school. One of them would be that in public school, there are a lot, a lot of resources. So if a student maybe requires some more care or some additional resources, that's a wonderful place for students who need a little bit of additional help. We really, really advocate for the needs of students and really try to show up in ways for different students that's the most beneficial for them. So I think those additional resources are great.
I did mention the diversity piece in school. But I also think that it's great in public school that there are a lot of students. [00:39:00] So, for example, the school that I work in, there's two classes of every grade level. And that gives students the opportunity the next year to be with a different group of students.
I know when I was in private school, we only had one class and I was with those same 25 students from first grade all the way through sixth grade. And sometimes that created a little bit of a challenging dynamic that there was never any switch up with that. So in the public school, we are able to mix those groups up every year and give students just exposure to working with different people and opportunities to making different friends every year.
Laura Dugger: I love that. I really haven't slowed down to consider that. It really has been our experience because we do have our neighborhood friends or our church friends or shared experience friends, like if our kids are in the same gymnastics class or something like that. But then also we have met families in the community and formed great friendships with people that we may have never crossed paths with. [00:40:07] So that is an added benefit.
Kelsey Kirk: I will say as well, living in my community here, I live in the same town that I teach in. When I first started teaching, I did not. I lived in a separate town that I taught in and I kind of wanted that space when I was first starting. And that was great.
When I moved back to this town, I was ready to live in the community that I teach in. That has been a wonderful thing where when I go to church on Sunday, I'm seeing some of my students. Or if I go play pickleball, I might run into my students at the courts. Or, you know, even if I'm just going to Dairy Queen to get ice cream, I will likely run into students. It has just been a very fun experience to kind of mesh all of my worlds, but particularly with going to church.
Obviously, in the public sector, that's not always something that we can talk about openly. [00:41:09] But to have some of my students know that we have that shared connection has been something that's really cool.
I think for parents who are of faith and for children that do have faith, that's even a really cool component that they can bring to public school. I have seen students who at recess are chatting with their peers who maybe don't go to church. And they come back in from recess and tell me about the things that they learned about God and about Jesus from their peers that are going to church.
So I think that being in a public school gives opportunities for students who are believers and who do love God the chance to stand up for those beliefs and the chance to teach other students who might not have that exposure kind of opens some of those doors. So those students have the opportunity to share some of God's gifts with people who maybe have never seen those before. [00:42:15]
Laura Dugger: And you're bringing up another memory. It was so special this past year. We had Selah pray about this for a year because when she was seven, she had given her life to the Lord and wanted to be baptized. After praying about it for a year, she felt like she was led to be baptized in our home church. And you were there. She invited you to attend that.
Her principal was invited and came. And her aide in your classroom and one of the co-op students. It was so beautiful to see these different relationships and these different women who are mentors of hers in different arenas to come and have that blend of the spiritual side as well.
Kelsey Kirk: Yes. It's nice, obviously, where we live. I have more opportunity for that, which has been such a wonderful part about living here. But you mentioning the women in her life and the role models in her life also made me think about how I was reading one time that a huge impact on children's success into adulthood is the number of healthy adult relationships they have in childhood. [00:43:24]
I really think in the public school sector, we have such a large staff. We have so many different staff members. I think that can also give students the opportunity to form really strong relationships with adults in their lives as well throughout their whole schooling experience.
So they might really bond with a teacher and they know they can go back and talk with that teacher or they might really bond with the principal or maybe it's the nurse if they're going to the nurse a lot. But there's just so many different adults there that serve in so many different roles and even paraprofessionals who are with them so often as well. There's just so many opportunities for them to form healthy relationships with adults that I think is really wonderful.
Laura Dugger: For any parents still deciding which school option is best for their children, what are a few of your favorite reasons to recommend they do consider public school? [00:44:25]
Kelsey Kirk: I think that there is a strong academic standing in public school. All of those curriculums have to be tested and reviewed. We do take the academic side very serious. Teachers are definitely held to a standard with the academic content, which is very important in school as well.
So my test scores are all being reviewed. I sit down in meetings with my principal and with the other third-grade teacher and with coaches in the district to look at my results and see what I'm doing, what's working, and then also be realistic and be vulnerable about what I could be doing better. So it's wonderful to work in a public school where I do have a team of educators that is so driven to helping students learn. That's really a strong focus, which is great.
One thing about public school is that it's called public school, right? [00:45:26] It's supposed to be a public experience. There's not supposed to be secret things happening. If a parent ever has a concern about something that's happening in the public school, or they're worried about the progress that their student is making, parents do have a lot of options for requesting different services that are legally mandated.
So if parents email the school and say, "Hey, I'm concerned about the progress that my student is making. Can we please sit down for a meeting to chat about their academic progress?" Then you can have a meeting with that student's problem-solving team, which would likely include the principal, that grade-level teacher. Often it includes the school psych, maybe a speech teacher, maybe a social worker.
But parents can sit down with all of those people and talk about how their student is doing. Parents are also able to even come in for observations if they're worried. [00:46:31] You can say, "Hey, I really want to see how my student is doing in school and how they are functioning in the classroom. Could I please come in and observe?" And schools do have to honor that.
It has to be scheduled in advance, obviously. But it's not supposed to be a scary place where you send your student and then you don't know what's going on. If you want to have meetings to chat about progress or if you're concerned and you want your student to be evaluated, you are able to request those things and schools will work with you on those.
I also think in a public school there's a great sense of community. Moving back to the town where I grew up in, now, when I'm in the community and I run into people that maybe I knew from high school and they ask me what I'm doing and I say the school that I'm teaching at, it is so funny to see people light up and they say, "That's the school that I went to. Like, go Lettie Brown Bears." [00:47:31] And they still have the Brown Bear pride.
I think it's just a wonderful thing for a student to be a part of that community and a community that they can look back on for years and years and remember, "I was a part of that. I really had pride in that. And that was something that was part of shaping me when I was growing up." So I think that that's a great point in attending public school.
Then I just really would like to reiterate that I think public school gives students an awesome opportunity to show the gifts that they're given and it also allows them to have their own dynamic within their class. So a little bit different than homeschooling, maybe where if you're at home and your family dynamic is happening and then you're at school and kind of that same dynamic can kind of continue happening. [00:48:31] Or if you're at private school and your class is the same every year, that kind of keeps that dynamic the same. And I think in public school, one of the different things is that that dynamic is going to change every single year because the class is going to change every year. And you're not always necessarily going to be with your siblings.
So if there is a younger sibling, maybe that really kind of, you know, is trying so hard, but cannot ever beat their older sibling and things, and they're having a challenging time with that, maybe when they go to their public school class, they're able to shine in ways that really make them feel special and unique within that class setting. That they're not always necessarily... at no fault of any of the parents or family dynamics. They're just not always able to feel that at home, they might be able to feel that in school.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any specific encouragement that you want to share with the parents or with the students who are listening?
Kelsey Kirk: Mm-mm. I would say to students and the parents, your teachers love you. [00:49:35] Teachers are teaching because they love the students, love to see students grow, and love to partner with families. I have loved meeting different families and creating different relationships with different families that I've had through school that I wouldn't necessarily be able to have if those families weren't attending the public school. So it's been fantastic for me just to create those relationships.
And when students come back, oh, nothing will make a teacher more happy than if a student comes back and says, Hey, I missed you and just wanted to say hi. Even when they're just in the next grade level or when they transition to a different school, if they come back or if they send teachers an email, that is just so validating and so incredible for teachers.
Truly, the last day of school is always so bittersweet for me because I love summer just like kids love summer. And teachers have worked so hard all year to form these deep relationships with students. [00:50:41] And you really want the students to do the best they can. Teachers become so invested in the lives of their students because they have spent a whole year together learning about them and watching them grow.
So I always tell my students towards the end of the school year, I will always be on your team. And I truly, truly do mean that. So when you go to junior high, if, you know, you have an awesome concert that you want to email me about because it was so you were so proud of yourself and it was so exciting, I would love to hear about it. Or if you have a track meet and, you know, you would really like me to be there, send me a schedule and I would love to show up.
Or when you graduate from high school or when you graduate from college or when you get married, and they all laugh and giggle, I... you know, teachers would love to be invited to those things and continue to be a part of those students lives because we do truly feel so invested in the success of every student that we have. [00:51:46]
Laura Dugger: Again, you are exceptional at investing in the lives of others and in the lives of your students. And I can see why that would be so rewarding when they circle back when they don't have to.
Kelsey Kirk: Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: And touch base. I bet it's fun to see them... They look so different and act so much more mature if you see them in high school after having them in third grade. That would be unique.
Kelsey Kirk: Thank you so much for validating that for me. That's so sweet of you to say.
Laura Dugger: Well, Kelsey, you know that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So is my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Kelsey Kirk: So kind of like we were talking about with students and being intentional about complimenting them or really making them feel seen, I try whenever I walk away from any interaction that I have, I try to think what is something that I liked about that interaction or what is something I liked about that person. [00:52:47] And I try to be very intentional of thinking what was a positive that came from that, what's something lovely about that person? And that really puts me into a more positive mindset about that person or about the experience that I had.
And then bonus points. If you share that compliment with the person. When I'm sitting in my class and we have those compliment circles, I am very able to give a student a really rich compliment and really be vulnerable in that way. But I find sometimes when I'm with adults, it feels a little bit trickier to vocalize that compliment.
So I'm trying to challenge myself to not only think those positive thoughts, but then also to share those with the people that I encounter. I really think that that is a way for me to share God's love with the people that I come across because everyone loves to hear those validations. [00:53:51] And if I'm thinking them and God is putting those thoughts into my mind, I want to share those things with other people.
Laura Dugger: Well, you truly live out what you're intending to. A quick little story. Selah and Shiloh and I have been involved in a mother-daughter Bible study all summer.
Kelsey Kirk: Fun.
Laura Dugger: And there was a previous Savvy Sauce guest, Courtney DeFeo, and she talked about the treasured Bible study. So that's the one we've been going through. And it's been wonderful to connect with other mothers and daughters in the community.
There was one week that we were studying about friendship and ultimately being a friend of God, but also being a good friend to others, and we were asked to list who are some people that come to mind that share encouraging words with us. And Selah listed a few people, and Miss Kirk was on that list. You were listed in the Bible study, so you came to mind.
Kelsey Kirk: Thank you. That's going to make me cry even thinking of that. That's so, so sweet that she thought of me. I'm so glad that I have been able to have that connection with her. [00:54:53] She's truly a phenomenal person.
Laura Dugger: Well, as are you. You have been such a gift to our family in big and small ways. You're consistently kind and encouraging. Your personality just does bring out the light in the students' eyes. And you're so effervescent yourself. So thank you for being my guest.
Kelsey Kirk: Thank you so, so much. And thank you for doing this episode to kind of highlight the different types of schooling and to just talk about the awesome things that are happening in education. Because I truly do feel that so many people are investing so much in shaping our students and shaping our children.
So no matter what path people go down, whether that's public school, private school, homeschool, I really think it's incredible to talk about different strategies that you can use and really partner together. [00:55:54] Because it does, like I said earlier, take a village. And so when we're all working together and we're all encouraging each other, there's no need to have competition of what's better than this and what's the best choice. When we can all partner together and help each other, that's really what's going to be the best for our kids.
So I think it's awesome to look at all the different options and just to encourage all of us in all of the different educational formats.
Laura Dugger: I could not agree more. That is beautifully put. So thank you again.
Kelsey Kirk: Of course. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:56:55] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. [00:57:58] I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:58:58] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Tuesday Sep 05, 2023
Tuesday Sep 05, 2023
210. School Series: Benefits of Private High School with Luke Baker
Proverbs 9:9 (NIV) "Instruct the wise and they will be wiser still; teach the righteous and they will add to their learning."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
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In your private school setting, what is something unique you get to teach?
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What sets apart private high school from other schooling options?
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For parents deciding which school option is best for their family situation, what are a few of your favorite reasons to recommend they choose private high school?
Luke Baker is an Adjunct Professor at Bradley, Illinois Central College, and Social Studies Teacher at Peoria Christian School in Central Illinois. He is a veteran teacher, world traveler, active club sponsor, and passionate scholar of history.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
We are continuing our school series to learn from teachers in various schooling options, including private, public, and homeschool. If you missed the kickoff yesterday, I hope you also go back to tune in and hear from Brianna Haworth.
Today, we get to learn from private high school teacher Luke Baker. On a more personal note, Luke is married to my sister, so he's been our brother-in-law for almost 20 years. He is a reputable teacher in our area, and I hope his perspective continues to challenge us to be thoughtful as we continue to ponder which option may be best for our family at this time. [00:01:19]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Luke.
Luke Baker: Thank you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: So glad to have you with us today. Can you just start us off by sharing your personal testimony?
Luke Baker: Yeah. I grew up in central Illinois. I had, I think, a pretty typical small town near a small city upbringing. My family was really involved in our local schools. My mom, especially, was really involved in our local church. Grew up with an Anabaptist education and kind of had the central, Midwest, small-town worldview in many good and bad ways that comes with all that.
And then I very deliberately wanted to wait to come to the Lord. I'm not sure if that was the right thing to do, but that was maybe some of Satan's way of keeping me back from a redeemed life. [00:02:19] But a little ahead of schedule, I came to Christ in college and really was surrounded by a very good group of young believers.
But I kind of had a shift in my belief system when I got to travel overseas, do some stuff in the Middle East as part of a very secular college outreach group. But as a young believer, obviously being in places like Jerusalem and Nazareth really spoke to me. Clearly coming to the Lord was the biggest change in my life. But I would say that trip to Israel and getting married were the other two. And it kind of steered my worldview in slightly different directions than maybe my upbringing would have been.
I went into education. I started out as an engineering major. After differential equations, I thought maybe teaching history was a better idea for me. I've been in public school and now teach in private schools.
I have three kids, and it's been very interesting from top down, you know, sitting at high school and teaching as an adjunct in some colleges, to watch my kids come up towards me in age, towards the age group I work with. [00:03:31]
I've been blessed to teach at a very good college prep school in Peoria, Illinois, that I'm pretty passionate about. It's been a good ride with the Lord. I really, every year, feel very blessed and very confident that either through the people He surrounded me with or through His own grace directly, God will provide.
Laura Dugger: And you are extremely intelligent and a very gifted teacher. And it's neat to see how the Lord took that interest in history and how you get to use that professionally now. So, Luke, in your private school setting, what is something unique that you have the opportunity to teach?
Luke Baker: One of my favorite things we do pretty much every year... we call it mini-term. Some schools call it spring extension or spring break at school. But we spend a full week teaching non-traditional classes. [00:04:33] So some teachers will take a group of students hiking for a week. One year I taught football because we don't have football at our school. We're kind of a soccer, baseball, basketball, volleyball type school.
The past few years, I've been able to use computer games to teach kind of a space exploration, logistics, economics. It's this clever little program that lets kids really kind of simulate what a future economy might be like. They're essentially playing space truckers and delivering goods from point A to point B, but they get a real kick out of it.
We learn a little science, a little math, a lot of economics and a lot of kind of resource management, stuff that I don't think kids usually get very excited about. But when all of a sudden you put it in space and it's a computer game, they really enjoy it. So I get to scratch that engineering side a little bit, even though I'm a history teacher.
Then after school, one day a week, we have a board game club, which I really enjoy. [00:05:36] And it's an attempt to get kids to unplug. Instead of sitting in their basement on a computer or on their phones, they're sitting across from somebody playing a game. They're pretty complex little games. They scratch a lot of the same itches that those less social, very intelligent kids kind of need. But it does it in a way where they get to work on people skills. So those two things I think I really enjoyed.
Laura Dugger: I love the freedom that you're talking about in those many terms. And I'm just curious, is that typically a highlight for the students?
Luke Baker: I hope so. Usually, they fill up pretty fast and I get quite a few repeat customers. I mean, some students would just rather do school. But especially juniors and sophomores, because they're kind of seniors, they can have some internship opportunities and stuff during that week that they really do well. [00:06:34] Or go on mission trips, which is why it exists. It gives extra time next to spring break for mission trips to happen without leaving so much school undone. But it's really fun for the rest of us.
You really get to connect with your students in a really different way. I really don't know how it works for me, because it's kind of hard to see yourself. But I can totally see teachers and students that either would never interact with each other because schedules and interests and subjects don't align, or they're interacting with a teacher that they've had for some core subject and now they're both doing woodworking or they're both doing cooking. It's an extra connection in their interest that normally they wouldn't have. And it's a lot of fun to see that happen.
Laura Dugger: That sounds like a lot of fun. I'm also curious, just as we're looking at this series and parents and students may be listening in as they're considering private or public or homeschooling or other options, what would you say sets apart private high school from the other schooling options? [00:07:42]
Luke Baker: That's a very good question. That's a loaded one. I would like to start by saying I have seen and interacted with homeschoolers and kids who've gone all the way through public school that have done really, really well, have been in an incredible place with their spiritual walk, and they just knocked it out of the park.
So I'm going to have a hard time not sounding like I'm trying to sell my option as better than the others. But I'm just talking about like when things go wrong or when things go right, this is the differences I see. Because we do get a fair amount of public school kids that come in freshman year. We do get a fair amount of kids that are transitioning from homeschool to high school because, you know, mom and dad don't want to do AP bio or chemistry in the house. Or, you know, they're not qualified to teach a college credit class. So I feel like I have a pretty eyes wide open cross-section of everything. [00:08:43] I went to public school the whole way through in the area.
But to me, like if you're looking at homeschool, whatever people ask, kind of the analogy I use, my students make fun of me for using analogies way too much, is like being a YouTube contractor. Like you totally can build your own house by watching YouTube. And it could be a great house. And there'd be no problem with it. And people can do that.
But for a lot of us, we get pretty lost in the woods really fast and we would be in trouble just because it can be done or it's good enough. It would be tricky to say that somebody doing it on their own using resources would ever do as well as a professional, that this is what they do, that they're certified. They're bringing in professional electricians, professional carpenters, HVAC people, people that do siting and gutters. We all know in our circles, people that this is their entire professional career. [00:09:41]
If you're homeschooling, you're kind of taking all that on and you're not a professional. That's what makes it really tricky. Again, I have a good friend who built his own house, sold it, and it's remarkable. You know, there are people that do that and do it really, really well. Even my analogy, I think, holds well that it can be done and the right people know, yeah, I can do this.
But especially with COVID, we saw a lot of people experiment with homeschooling and it went really wrong really fast for some of them.
Laura Dugger: That's super helpful to hear the comparison from your professional standpoint. Is there any other advantage that you see specifically that private school offers beyond the professional certified teachers?
Luke Baker: Yeah, the classroom environment... and homeschools have done good with having co-ops and all that. And I've seen some students really excel in that. But I coach Scholastic Bowl and Scholastic Bowl tends to get a lot of kids who don't do team sports, don't understand a team attitude and they struggle. [00:10:48] You know, this is their first time doing any sort of organized, competitive, anything.
I've coached football and tennis and other things as a varsity high school coach before and the contrast gets really obvious really quick. The idea of existing in kind of a shared space where others get, I mean, everyone gets to have the spotlight. Everybody gets to ask questions. I mean, that's for most people where their professional goal is going to end up too.
The homeschool students can really, really struggle with that. And it can really kind of throw them off. One of the things I often tell parents is your kids are not the same kids when they're not around you. I mean, they just aren't. I had experience with my middle child. There was a stage when she was younger where she was our discipline challenge. She really was at home. Every single teacher for those like two or three years in elementary school, they would just go on and on about how kind and quiet and helpful and just tenderhearted she was. [00:11:56] I was sure we had got the wrong teacher conference. How could this be this kid who's just, you know, hitting the fences nonstop?
Everybody has different ways to behave in different environments. One of my cautions with homeschool parents is those other sides of your kid don't get cultivated when they're not around other people and other authority figures. There's a dynamic that can really get lost in any time, K through 12, a developmental stage that, I don't know, that I think is pretty vital. Because, I mean, we all know when we grew up, we were different around our bosses, different around our grandparents than we were around our parents. You just got to be careful that you don't get too small of a circle.
I think parents often think, especially the older grades, like middle school and high school, that school's about content. And homeschoolers knock out the content like nobody's business. Homeschool kid shows up, they will be well-read, they'll be well-versed.
I teach a Bradley class on education when I taught last year, a class on education to kids who are going the next year to become teachers in high schools. [00:13:06] And I really had to hammer into them, your content is just a vehicle for skills that students need. I think it's very easy for a homeschool parent to hit the wrong target. That you're so worried about getting the math and the science, what you don't understand is a professional who's doing it right. And I'm not saying they all do. We're really teaching skills like how to defend a topic, how to analyze information, and see the bias in a source.
I mean, I always tell my parents at PCS, the school that I teach at, if they learn the skills and they hate history, I would take that over the flip, over them learning all the history, which I really am very passionate about. I love history. But there's all these skills we're cultivating, that's the targets we're really caring about. Whether it's English, math, or history.
When I taught math, students would always be like, "When am I going to use this?" [00:14:08] And I'm like, you probably won't. You will never have to figure out a parabola for 90% of you. That's not why we do this. We're doing it, can you take rules? Can you take procedures? Can you apply them? Can you articulate what you've done? Can you then see other times when those rules do or don't apply? That's vital to every life path you might be on. Math is just a vehicle for teaching that.
And it's very hard, I think, for an amateur educator or a student reading on their own to get all that. Again, some do, many do. But that's a challenge, I think, in homeschool.
Laura Dugger: That's a great perspective. Luke, what positive impact do you see private high school making in the lives of your students and of the community?
Luke Baker: Community, I think, is unique for... I mean, especially my private school, we draw from like 12 different school districts. I think we draw from 130 different churches. I am at a private school where parents have to sign off on a statement of faith. We have to have at least the parents saying that, you know, they support a Christian worldview. [00:15:20]
So our community is that. It's like a central Illinois community. It's really neat to me, and especially with my own kids, my oldest daughter is a freshman, that they have this area-wide community of Christians from different backgrounds, different family heritage, different cultures. But they all share Christ, and they all share the school experience together.
And all the time, that grows, right? You know, they'll run into somebody who knows somebody. It's really neat to see how well that has worked, that they all get to interact with each other.
There's also an accountability to that. I remember we had a kid years ago transferring. It was a Caterpillar family, which is a big company around here that's constantly moving families in and out. And the kid said, "Mr. Baker, this really stinks. I can't go anywhere without running into someone from PCS or somebody that knows me from PCS." [00:16:20] It's like everyone's watching me all the time. And I said, "Yeah, isn't that neat?" And he's like, "No, no, that's not neat at all."
But I like that, like this idea that iron is always sharpening iron, kind of in our extended PCS, you know, private Christian school community. I think accountability is something we've lost as a culture and, you know, an area of private school can kind of help wrestle that back a little bit.
Laura Dugger: Yeah, accountability is the word that came to my mind as well. And I'm thinking even for those families who are moving in, that's exciting to be a part of a larger community and hopefully feel more connected and make it feel more like home. So I'm with you. I see that as a benefit.
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
[00:17:05] <music>
Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important.
The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched. Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty.
This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank.
To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.
[00:18:34] <music>
Laura Dugger: Do you have any systems or goals in your own classroom that you've seen have proven over time to be most beneficial?
Luke Baker: Yeah. One of the things I really try to grow in the students after their freshman year. Freshman year, they're trying to do school, they're trying to... I mean, about 30% of our kids did not come from our eighth grade, so they're having to think critically now instead of a little bit more rote memorization, all that.
But as they get older, the idea of questioning appropriately things you're told, things you're taught, things you read, whether that's a teacher saying, "Here's how I think something is," whether it's a social media news article that you ran across on Facebook or whatever, whether it's a YouTube video or a news outlet, to have an appropriately critical mind to where you're trust but verify, prove all things, kind of that mentality. [00:19:41] And how to do that right and how not to be, you know, abrasive or rude or to the other extreme, you know, naive and over trusting that there's a balance there that I think is tough for all of us.
But then with a safety net, we can kind of do that at a private Christian school and really talk about things from a Christian worldview too. You know, just like the Bible answers this, you know, how do you find this in the Bible? How do you understand how to use the Word and how to make that a living daily decision tool, referring to the Word and leading with your church community and listening to the Spirit? It's a lot of fun when it clicks.
I would say for a lot of our seniors, we get to see that moment when they're kind of up and running and they're doing them really, really well. Some of them you find out two or three years down the road, you know, you got to wait a little bit for that seed to bear fruit. But I really enjoy that. That's fun to see.
And I will say our kids are really good at coming back and telling us their stories after they're gone because they're excited. [00:20:42] You know, they want to come back and tell their Christian community that they finally got it, you know?
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's encouraging. Is that something you would say you're even using daily? Is it more organic that you're opening the Bible with them, or is that part of your curriculum?
Luke Baker: I would love to say it's daily. I would say they take me on my word a little bit sometimes. But we have Bible classes that they take every day, just like a regular class. Often they'll come kind of locked and loaded with the Scripture. And it's fun to see how the Spirit kind of orchestrates it all. I cannot say how many times... I mean, probably 50 times in a school year, if not more. They're coming straight from, or yesterday they just covered a Scripture or in chapel, because we all do chapel together once a week. You know, the topic came up, or this story was told, or the verse was read, or this Bible lesson was taught that immediately links into exactly what I wanted to talk about and gives them the Scripture kind of like mentally in hand that I would have wanted to reference to. And it really feels good to see how well that all works.
And it has nothing to do with... you know, I didn't know that was going to happen. I would love to say I know all my fellow teacher schedules and knew that this was coming. But it is very much just the moving of the Spirit through our curriculum. [00:22:05]
I think after a couple of years there, almost all the teachers, you know, you learn to just be ready for it. It's a lot of fun. It also saves a lot of teaching time when they're already kind of ready with the stuff you were kind of hoping they'd get. And then you can do next-level stuff or have a little bit deeper conversation because we're all on our staff kind of building off of each other back and forth.
Laura Dugger: That is so exciting. I love moments like that when truly the credit can only go to the Spirit orchestrating those events and that timing. Luke, what do you see as the most important thing for students to learn or master by the time they leave high school?
Luke Baker: To really know yourself. To know here's the gifts God gave me, here's where my strengths are, here's my weaknesses, here's the things I need to have a mentor for, here's the things maybe I could be a mentor to younger believers on. [00:23:11] You know, just to have... I mean, I know I struggle with knowing yourself, understanding how has God made me, where are my strengths and my weaknesses.
And not to maneuver away from your weaknesses, but to have support with the communities that God puts in our lives to take care of those. One of the stories I bring up quite a bit is the story of the talons where a young prince hands out, you know, sometimes it's told as money or chests of gold. And some of his subjects invested it and grew it and then were like, look what I have. But the sad part of the story in the parable is there was a servant who had buried it all. So nothing changed and then just gives it back to him.
There's a bit of a pun in the old English on what the word talent means there, but it kind of works that like don't bury your talents. God gave you these gifts. I think high school students so much want to already be like, I know I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to be an accountant. I know I'm going to be a fashion designer. [00:24:19] And I try to very gently pull out of them. They're like, you have other talents and other gifts. Don't put yourself on a rail yet. Invest in those. You're biblically called to take the things you were given and invest all of them in all the ways. Don't be the single-note person when God's given you the ability to play chords.
Navigating that is the thing that... if I could pick one thing that students know, it's that they know how God's made them to be and are embracing that.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I love that so much. A lot of wisdom in there. What would you say is a helpful way parents can partner with you for the benefit of their children?
Luke Baker: That's a bit of a self-serving question. I think parents kind of grow up with their students. Again, having kids that were very young when I started teaching at the high school and watching them come up. [00:25:23] I think parents just kind of knowing that they're growing up alongside their students... I mean, I don't want to say immature because that's not what I mean. But like you kind of exist in the mind space of your child because you're thinking for them and with them.
I think so many parents really, really want to endorse and make their kids feel like everything they did was valid and right. And that's not really what we're called to do. I think when parents and teachers, both well-intending buttheads, that if they're doing everything right, that that's still a battleground. Especially with that oldest student coming through, I see it with freshman parents a lot, they want to validate everything their kid's done.
That's not what God models for us as an authority figure. That He doesn't exist to say everything you've done is good no matter why you did it. He can make it good, but He's there to shepherd us, to guide us, to provide us things like the Bible and the Holy Spirit. [00:26:28] And I think parents so much want the win to be on their kid's team that they're forgetting where their place is on the team.
They're trying to be a teammate and a cheerleader and supposed to be coaches. We're supposed to be having a big picture in mind, guiding the kids along.
And you kind of should think of a teacher as an assistant coach. That we exist to help that goal of parenting and raising a kid, but everyone's got to kind of embrace their role. Assistant coach can't be a head coach, and a head coach can't be a player or a cheerleader. And it's tricky. It's hard with all the emotion. Every time I have a second or third board come through, parents have already got it. I mean, they're good at it. They learn really, really quick the do's and their don'ts.
But if a parent and a teacher want to get along, I think parent is the head coach, but that's how we need it to be. And that's how it works best is when everyone's doing what they're supposed to do in that relationship. [00:27:30]
Laura Dugger: That's a helpful analogy.
Luke Baker: Then I think parents always want to hold cards really close to their chest about their students, whether that's allergies or learning disabilities or family problems. You should be at a place with your school where you can feel like you can share that stuff with your teachers and with other people that are around your kids. Because if you don't, it really does create a lot of problems for everyone.
I don't know how many times things have come up, even at Peoria Christian, but certainly when I was in public school too, and we just needed to know. As a young teacher, before I had kids of my own, I was always very like, Why would a parent not tell us? Why would they not give us everything we would need to know about their students so we could help them in class?
Well, now as a parent, I know it's because you have to trust the person you're giving it to. And yeah, the schools I was at and some of the places I was in the past, I could see why a parent knowing everyone that was involved wouldn't want that information out there, wouldn't trust the proper handling of that, the sensitivity to it, the right way of approaching the kid, you know, tactfully and talking about it. [00:28:42]
And when a parent or a student is thinking about, am I at the school or in the educational environment I should be in, if you can't trust the people who you're interacting with every day with really important information about you that either affects your education or your physical well-being, that's a good red flag on you're not maybe in the best teaching environment and learning environment.
Of course, if you are in that environment, please share, because it's so much easier to handle things if you know they're there than to be guessing at it all the time.
Laura Dugger: For parents deciding which school option is best for their family situation, what are a few of your favorite reasons to recommend they choose private high school?
Luke Baker: Well, private high school, I mean, I'll talk about my school in particular, there are families that I deeply love and really enjoy their children. If they ask me, "Should we be coming to Peoria Christian? Why would we come to Peoria Christian?" I would honestly tell them probably not for you. [00:29:45]
For example, private schools are usually very limited on things like vocational technology. We don't have a welding team. We don't have a shop class. We don't have a lot of those things. And very few Christian schools would have that. So that might be a reason to stay with a local public school.
I would also look at your school board. There are certain communities in Central Illinois we just don't draw very heavily from. And I know why. It's because those schools are very well run. The teachers are as open about their faith as they can be. The board is very intentional and very parent-centered. So in so many ways, it's almost like a public Christian school. If you have that, maybe we're not for you.
Sometimes I make the analogy of someone looked at my 15-year-old SUV and said, "A Range Rover would be a much nicer vehicle. And here's why Range Rover is better." And everything they said would be perfectly true and 100% correct. [00:30:50] It just doesn't make sense for me to go out and buy a Range Rover, not because my car is better, but because it just that makes sense for where I am in life and my income and all that. I think a lot of that plays into it.
On the flip side, we do pull some kids from very good schools where the student just really, really needed a reset, whether it's a year away or just to be able to start over without a reputation. Sometimes kids just don't ever click with a friend group as people change, you know, middle school and high school. I don't know if there was a big push in local churches to kind of reconsider giving your kid a reset, but I feel like we've had quite a few students last four or five years where that's kind of what their mentality was that they wanted to do over.
They wanted to be able to come and reset everything their freshman or sophomore year. And most of the time, I think that goal has been pretty well achieved. A good school can kind of be a two-edged sword sometimes if it's just not working for your students. [00:31:55]
Laura Dugger: And what encouragement would you want to leave with any students or parents who are listening right now?
Luke Baker: I would encourage parents and students, especially if they are in public schools, to really think about what are the motivation of the authority figures in your life. I mean, I can tell you because I've taught in the education side of the college level. Young teachers, they very much want to change how your kid thinks, how your kid feels, what your kid's worldview is.
And to them, for all the noblest of reasons. I'm not a big fan of most of the major news outlets. But I know this whole idea of teachers trying to shape students has been pretty front and center. And, yeah, that's 100% true. And so then who are you sending your kids to be with? Or if you're the student, who are you sitting in front of?
It's a tricky duality to say, I'm going to trust them to teach me math or science or English. But they know what they're talking about, the authorities. But then when they switch to how do I handle life's problems, how do I handle life decisions? How do I deal with these really important things? [00:33:14] I've got to know when to shut them off because they don't share my worldview, they don't believe the Bible, they're not looking through the same decision matrix that I want to.
And especially for, I think, middle school ages, but also at high school, that's really, really hard. How do you trust a person half the time while they're talking and then feel like I have to ignore them the other half? If you feel like that's what you're dealing with, if private school can work, we can kind of take that off the table, where not only are they having to not listen to a worldview or listen to kind of an indoctrination, but like we're in sync with what the student or the family wants to learn.
I can't tell you how many times I've had students ask me very tricky religious questions. And we break open the Bible and we read it and then I send an email to the Bible teacher and say, "Hey, so-and-so's really talking about this. If you have any insight, talk to them." It can become a running month-long conversation. It just happens alongside their schooling.[00:34:20] We're all helping them and we're all supporting them. If that's what is lacking in a public school experience, I think that's a good time to start thinking about private education.
Laura Dugger: That's a great perspective. It sounds like at your school, you all can kind of come around and support them as a team, support the student. That is such an invaluable gift as a young person to have so many trustworthy mentors. So I appreciate you sharing that.
How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
Luke, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:35:29]
Luke Baker: Well, my savvy sauce, when my firstborn was growing up, we're a little bit older than most parents with kids our age, especially in the towns we live in. And so I had an opportunity to kind of watch for four or five, six years, whatever it was, all the people around me, whether it was family, church, co-workers, how they parented. And I decided that I was going to always answer any question my kids asked honestly and to the level I think it needed to be answered. But not to make up... I'm not picking on my father, but like, you know, if you don't eat your green beans, the police are going to come arrest you, you know. And sometimes silly, harmless stuff like that. But I just didn't like that. It did not appeal to me.
So there have been many times I've told my kids, it's not really something we need to worry about now or it's not something we need to talk about. I think at least for my children, the idea of just always being honest with them and answering every question, which kids can ask a lot of questions and I get that. [00:36:43] But I mean, I'm a teacher. If I have a talent, it should be answering questions. And so I would just encourage parents, like it's so easy to fall into little truisms or clever little stories, but it has paid off really, really well.
Especially now that I'm into the teenage years, my daughters, because that's my oldest two are both girls, know that dad's always telling them exactly what he believes, what he knows to be true. And I'm not being flippant with my answers. I'll tell them I don't know if I don't know. There's no harmful filler information to try to avoid saying something creative. I just tell them the truth.
And then anytime you can make something have an educational impact, don't force it, but do it. Sometimes I get eye rolls from my daughters and the growns. My youngest, Leo, is seven, so he's pretty much up for anything. [00:37:43]
Like, for example, my middle school daughter had a friend over and we have a traveling section of the Vietnam War Memorial. It's called the Wall that Heals, coming through a local community. It was late at night. It was dark. They were still roaming around the house, not getting to sleep. It's like, hey, let's go check out the wall. I know they weren't super thrilled with the idea of seeing something that felt like it was a history thing, but I think it paid off well.
Not always are my kids happy to go to a museum or read a historical marker, but if you moderate it appropriately... you know, I never get to spend as much time at a museum as I would love to. But you figure out to what degree can my kids handle this stuff and then maneuver it around. It has been really fun, especially with my oldest child, to watch her go through middle school, having been to places, known things, seen things, read about things. I mean, it's not just history stuff. We do science museums. She's actually a counselor this summer in a science camp that she attended when she was younger. [00:38:50]
To be able to have actually done those things, know those things, have experience hands-on, not just through a YouTube video with all of her subjects. Sometimes she knows more than her teacher about a thing because she's done it, she's seen it, she's been there. And we still have fun vacations and we still hit the beaches and go to the amusement parks and all that. But it's okay to make even fun things a little educational.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Spoken from a true heart of a teacher. Luke, I just hear so many comments in the community about what a fantastic and impactful teacher you are. I love hearing from your students or their parents. So I just want to say thank you for caring well for your students. And thank you for being my guest today.
Luke Baker: I do want to say, you talk about reputation and you and Mark and the East Peoria Chick-fil-A, it is always so fun to interact and meet people that either work there, that just go there. The community at large, especially when they don't know that I have any connection at all, really does just love the restaurant. [00:39:58] Both with the students that work there from all the different schools, but also just the experience being there.
I wish you could unknowingly hear all the things I've heard about your family in the store, because I'm very proud always to let people know about my connection with it, because it has such an incredibly good reputation both for the food, but also for the light and the Christian example it puts out there in a community that needs it.
Laura Dugger: Thank you, Luke. I'll pass that along. That's credit to Mark. I'll pass it along, but thank you. And likewise, it's the same exact feeling of pride when they share and "Well, Mr. Baker is actually our brother-in-law.
Luke Baker: My families are very kind at PCS. Well, it's been my pleasure. Thank you for thinking of me when you were doing this.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:40:59] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:42:04] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. [00:43:09] Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:44:08]
Monday Sep 04, 2023
Monday Sep 04, 2023
209. School Series: Benefits of Private Elementary School with Brianna Haworth
**Transcription Below**
2 Peter 3:18 (NKJV) "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
Questions and Topics We Cover:
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What positive impact do you see private school making in the lives of students and the community?
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What systems have you put into place in your own classroom that have been most beneficial?
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From your perspective, what are a few benefits of children attending private elementary school?
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
Miracles of God with Founder of Midwest Food Bank, David Kieser
Brianna Haworth is an Elementary School Teacher after graduating from Olivet Nazarene University in 2020. She taught in a public school for 2 years, and has now switched to teaching at Solid Rock Christian Academy, which she loves! She has been married for 2 years and she and her husband enjoy walking together, going on ice cream dates, and serving in the junior high ministry at their church. She was raised in a big Christian family and has been blessed to know the Lord since she was young. Brianna also loves music, nature, and working with kids!
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
We are launching a series I've always dreamed of hosting. A series to challenge and equip us as parents to ponder which schooling option may be best for our children at this time. This month, we're going to learn from teachers in various schooling options, including private, public, and homeschool.
Today, my guest is private elementary school teacher, Brianna Haworth. Brianna is going to share lessons and ideas that apply both to the classroom and to our homes.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Brianna.
Brianna Haworth: Good morning, thanks for having me. [00:01:18]
Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love to just start by having you share your personal testimony with us.
Brianna Haworth: Yeah. So I was raised in a loving Christian home in a really big family. We had nine people total. So my parents, and then I had six brothers and was the only girl. So we were definitely very active and stayed busy with all of the sports and activities.
We were part of the Apostolic Christian Church until I was about 8 years old. Then my parents actually helped launch Summit Point Church in East Peoria. And so that's where we still go now.
But it was such a blessing to be raised by strong believers in a home where we prayed together and prioritized church events and talked about God in so many different ways. And so because of that environment, I really have held a Christian worldview for as long as I can remember.
I first gave my life to Christ, though, when I was five years old and have been following Him ever since. But because of my large family size and some unkind friends in middle school, I often felt invisible growing up. [00:02:24] And my older brothers, I love them so much and they have such bright personalities that fill a room. But because of that, I never felt like I could quite measure up.
At school, I felt like I was always fighting for attention from others and not always invited into groups and friendships. So as a young person, that was just a very hard thing to experience often on every day. I really wanted to be seen as valuable, but I felt like no one really wanted me around.
Since I had a relationship with the Lord, I would come to Him with my hurt and my insecurities. And the beautiful thing was that He did see me. And even though I could never deserve His love, He freely gave it just so much of it.
Over time, he spoke to me more and more through scripture and worship songs and sermons and even people around me. He showed me how He loved and cared for me and taught me how to listen to His spirit and follow Him. God's love really changed my life and gave me the identity and belonging and purpose that I had been searching for in school. [00:03:26]
So for a young girl with a lot of hurt inside, questioning my worth and place in the world, it really made all the difference. Even into adulthood, God really continues to blow me away with His love and forgiveness and goodness. So, yeah, that's a big summary of my testimony.
A lot of that plays into my decision to become a teacher, too. In my hurting, God had really given me a gift for seeing people that were often unseen in a room. The way He deeply loves and cares for each person really fills me with passion to share that love. So much of my testimony was forged through my years in school, and that's where I felt called to go and spread love.
So I went to public school growing up. And the impact that school has on kids is really just crazy, whether it's through the teachers or the other students, academics, or even just the social pressure of being at school in general. There's always just such a huge impact on kids, especially in younger grades. [00:04:27] And so much of your view of yourself is formed in elementary school. I saw this a lot in my life as well as the lives of my younger brothers, too.
So as a teacher, I wanted to allow the Lord to shine a positive light through me during those really important years. And so it's my prayer each morning before school that He would give me eyes to see students that are hurting and that His spirit would just guide me in my responses.
So I'm about to enter my fourth year of teaching. It's been really a blessing to be in this field, even though it is sometimes challenging. I taught in public school for my first two years, and then I switched to teaching kindergarten at Solid Rock in Moreton this past year. So, yeah.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for giving us the background. Now you've grown up in public school, but we're going to focus on private school education because that's where you're a teacher now. So what kind of positive impact are you seeing private school making in the lives of your students and the community? [00:05:29]
Brianna Haworth: One of my favorite things I would say about teaching in Christian school is just how each subject is taught with a biblical worldview woven into it, whether that's science or reading, math. All of it really is tied together. This really has helped students just to be learning more about God's character during all parts of the day and not just during Bible lessons.
So my students last year really learned so much about God's creation and how He provides for us in so many ways. It was just really awesome to see their view of God just developing and seeing them learn more about Him throughout the day.
One of my other favorite things about teaching in Christian school is just the spiritual influence that happens throughout the day. There's just so many opportunities to teach students practical ways to lean on God while they're at school. So like when there's behavior issues, we're able to pray about it together and look in scripture and see what God has to say. [00:06:27]
When students are frustrated about a challenging academic task, I can ask them to listen to the Holy Spirit and see what He says about working hard and we can pray together in that too. So it's just been so beautiful to watch the spirit move in the classroom, especially coming from public school where that wasn't something that could really be talked about. And it's really just helped the students to look to God as their first response during challenges, which has been really just amazing to see.
Our school also does monthly service projects to help grow servant hearts in our students. This has been a great way to reach out to the community as well. We volunteer over at the Midwest Food Bank. We did that a couple of times last year, and also we wrote some cards on Valentine's Day for a nursing home. We even raked somebody's yard in the fall.
It really has just led to good discussion with the kids about living like Jesus and how He chose to serve and trying to follow those footsteps. [00:07:28] So that has been a really awesome part of the private school that I've been at.
Another positive impact is just the smaller class size too. At Solid Rock, there's a cap of 15 students per class where when I was teaching, my student teaching was in a public school and I had 28 students in one class. So just like that size makes such a difference where teachers are really able to differentiate their teaching and their instruction.
So if a student is moving faster, you can really give them one-on-one challenges and work with them so they're still working and growing. And then also if a student is struggling, you can have more time to work with them to help them master a skill. So it just leads to greater academic growth too throughout the year, which wouldn't always be possible with such a large class size.
Laura Dugger: I love how you're talking about these service opportunities, really getting hands-on experience. I love that so much. Even the organizations that you said you're involved with, Midwest Food Bank, comes to mind. [00:08:31]
Previously, I had interviewed the founder of Midwest Food Bank, and he just shared miracle after miracle. I'm going to add a link in the show notes if anybody wants to go back and hear that message. It was fascinating to get to hear from him. So thank you for leading the children in that way.
Are there any other systems that you've put in place in your own classroom that you've seen maybe to prove most beneficial?
Brianna Haworth: Yeah. One thing I really love is we do start every day with prayer. Once the kids come into the classroom, it's sweet because we kind of take turns praying too. So I get to hear each of the students share their own prayers and hear their hearts in that.
But it really just helps to set the tone for the day and center us on the Lord each morning before we start all that's ahead of us. That's been something really simple but beneficial that just couldn't happen in a public school setting.
Another thing we do that I really love is we study the fruits of the spirit a lot, especially with kindergarten. [00:09:31] And they've been a really big help in the classroom. At the start of the year, we actually start by learning about the Trinity and the roles of God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. And then as we learn about the role of the spirit, we look into Galatians 5 to identify the different fruits of the spirit. I actually have them displayed on a little tree in my classroom.
Then we introduce something I use called the fruit of the spirit jar. It's a system that's been really helpful. Basically, I just bought 100 small plastic little apples and then a really large clear jar. I made three marks that go up the jar. And each mark has a prize on it labeled. Like pajama day or extra recess, etc.
Whenever the class or student was displaying a fruit of the spirit, they would get to go put one of the plastic apples in the jar and then they could kind of accumulate over time. And when they reached a mark, they got that prize. [00:10:29]
So when students were waiting really patiently in line before lunch, I could have them put in a fruit of the spirit for patience. Or when a student was going out of their way to do something kind, they could earn a fruit of the spirit, too, and I would write a note home to tell their parents how they had shown the fruit of the spirit that day. So it's been a really practical way to reward students for making good choices and also tying God into all the different parts of our day.
We also do something called calm time after lunch and recess each day. It's another pretty short and simple thing that has been really helpful. So when the students come in from recess, I have these twinkle lights on and the rest of the lights in the room are off. So it's a very calm setting when they come in.
They come in and find a spot to lie down right away. And then once they're spread out, I play just like an acoustic worship song over my speaker. During this time, I encourage the kids to pray and take deep breaths, set goals and just prepare themselves to have a successful afternoon. [00:11:28] It only takes about four minutes each day, so it's really quick, but it's been a great way to help the kids transition from playtime to focusing in on school.
And then after the song ends, we all take a deep breath together and get started with our afternoon. So that's been another little helpful thing that we've done.
Laura Dugger: Wow, these are such great ideas. I'm even thinking now I would love to implement some of these into our home. So even with that calm time, you said you notice a big difference. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? What do you see in the kids after that playtime as they transition?
Brianna Haworth: Yeah, for sure. Well, when kids are outside, like at recess or PE, that's usually just... it's the most unstructured part of the day, which is super necessary for kids so that they can focus as we get back into the learning for the day. But the transition can be really hard where if you just have them come in from running around and just go straight to their desks and start a lesson. They're really just not going to be focused or listening. [00:12:31] Just like physically, they're moving around a lot and they just start talking and not really able to focus.
So usually when we do calm time, as soon as it's done, you can just tell like we have them calmly walk to their carpet spots and we like all just kind of ease into learning Bible time. And they just are really ready to focus even after just such a short amount of time. It's just like a reset button almost. It's really helpful.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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[00:14:57] <music>
Laura Dugger: Nowadays there are so many options for schooling. What would you say is something that you get to teach that's unique due to your private school setting?
Brianna Haworth: We spend time practicing Bible memory verses each day, which has been something obviously you couldn't do in a public school. And the kids learn a new verse every month and then we practice it daily. We also have a Bible curriculum that we do every day. These lessons focus a lot on just God's character and ways that He calls us to live. So it helps to just bring that conversation into the classroom.
Another thing I really notice is that in private school, we devote a lot more time to things like science and social studies. With public schools, they spend the vast majority of their time and their resources on teaching reading and math because those are the subjects covered in the state standardized testing.
So science and social studies often get thrown in very few times a week. Many elementary schools don't even provide their teachers with curriculum for those subjects. They kind of just do what they can, read a book, and say that that counted as their social studies time for the day. [00:16:06] Where at Solid Rock, we have a science and social studies curriculum that we consistently spend time on throughout the week.
And the kids just really love those subjects and it really just helps them to have a more rounded out academic experience. And also tying in learning about God through those subjects, too, has been really great.
We also have a Spanish curriculum that we do so that kids can be learning a different language, which I've never really seen much in public school. So that's been another really helpful thing.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I can absolutely see this being beneficial because children at that age can just soak up foreign language so much faster and adapt to that. And all of these things that you're putting in about the Bible verse memorization and even like going back to you talking about the fruit of the spirit, these are things that will benefit them for their entire lives. So I love hearing the impact you're making.
Brianna, what do you see as the most important thing for elementary students to learn or master? [00:17:09]
Brianna Haworth: Honestly, I'm a strong believer that teaching character matters more than the content that you're teaching, because while it's important to keep up with academic standards, really the most important thing is for students to master character skills and helping them become good decision makers.
It reminds me of the old saying about if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach him to fish, you feed him a lifetime. Most adults probably couldn't tell you all the facts that they learned in elementary school, but many of them probably learned how to persevere when they first did a challenging school project.
So the bonus of teaching at a Christian school is that the character skills we practice can come from a biblical standpoint, too. So, as I mentioned before, I really use the fruit of the spirit as a starting point. And I think that's a really great place to start.
We also focus a lot on the concept of growth and the importance of noticing and celebrating growth, even if you're not quite as far along as someone else. [00:18:06] God's really given each of us unique gifting, and so some students may excel faster than others in a certain subject or learning area.
Students tend to really notice this and they might want to quit if they realize they aren't grasping something as quickly as someone else. But often, the kids who grasp the concept quickly will then kind of stop pushing themselves and coast, and so then they're not growing either.
So, as a teacher, I really focus on the concept of growth and that if you learn something quickly but stop challenging yourself, then you stop growing. Also, if you're slow to pick something up and you give up, then you also stop growing.
So, in both scenarios, you have students that are missing the character skill of perseverance. And so, if you can push both of those students to continue growing, then they're both more successful and can have built a habit of working hard to help them for the rest of their lifetime. This can really do wonders for a student's confidence, too, as you really help to highlight and celebrate how much they've grown instead of just comparing them to how fast they're learning it. [00:19:09]
Laura Dugger: I love that. And I love how you chose to boil it down to character. It is escaping me right now. I can't remember which book I was reading recently. It may have been Habits of the Household, but where they gave this word picture that we are hoping and praying for fruit of the spirit in our children, but the soil that it grows in, that we cultivate, is character. So that really partners with what you're saying.
Brianna Haworth: I love that.
Laura Dugger: If this is your first time with us, I want to say welcome. We are so honored to have you join us and we would love to hear how you first heard about The Savvy Sauce. And if you've been here for a while, would you consider becoming a patron?
By joining our group of patrons, you gain exclusive access to many bonus episodes. And the new episodes and downloadable scripture cards just keep coming with your monthly patronage. You can join today by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on our Patreon tab, then click "Join Patreon Here". [00:20:13] We are able to keep producing content due to the generosity of our patrons, so we want to sincerely say thank you.
What would you also say are some helpful ways parents can partner with you for the benefit of their children?
Brianna Haworth: I would say that kids really thrive on consistency. So, it's really helpful when parents can do anything to be connecting school and home for the kids. For example, if our learning target for Bible time in the week is that God is good, and then parents talk about that at the dinner table, it really helps students to just further grasp the concept.
Another thing is just to check in daily with your child about how their behavior was at school and have discussions about things that they're doing well at and maybe things they could be working on. It just kind of helps to connect where it's not do whatever you want at school and then come home and there's no consequences or conversation about it. It really helps when you can have those discussions. [00:21:14]
And even academically, it helps when you can be connecting school and home and reading with kids at home and practicing skills that they're learning, like counting or whatever it is we're learning in math or science. The students really, when they consistently practice these things, they learn more and they're more successful in what we're learning. So, it applies to academics and behavior, too.
And at the heart of it, you know, we really want kids to just be learning how to center their lives on Christ. So, if we talk about and practice that all day at school, but it doesn't continue at home, that can really be confusing for a child. So, keeping things consistent is really the most helpful thing in whatever way you're doing that, whether that's academics or behaviors or just how you are talking about God at home, too.
Laura Dugger: Well, from your perspective, what are a few benefits of children attending private elementary school?
Brianna Haworth: I think having a biblical perspective on behavior is really beneficial. [00:22:13] When I was teaching in public school and a student would do something unkind, for example, and I would try to talk to them about it, they sometimes wouldn't really understand why it was a problem. The furthest moral conclusion you could really get to was the golden rule of treating others the way you want to be treated. And that if you wouldn't like it, then you shouldn't do it to someone else. And it basically taught students to respect others because it's what they would want.
So, in many ways, it was actually building a world centered around self for students, where they measured their morals with themselves at the center to determine if something was right or wrong.
But then I would have some students say something unkind to another student and claim, well, I wouldn't mind if someone else said that to me, so it's fine. So, it just really doesn't work to try to teach morals without God as the unchanging center. It's really difficult for kids because otherwise you just don't have any clear measure.
So, being able to use Jesus as a role model really gives so much clarity to students when they're learning about right and wrong. [00:23:17] And with a biblical perspective, you can identify that God loves everyone and you can look to Jesus as an example of how to show that love. So, this allows you to really get to the heart issues when behavior problems come up in a way that you can't really do in a public school.
Another big benefit of sending your kids to private school is just that they have a lot less negative exposure impacting their lives in quite a few different ways. Elementary ages are just so impactful in a student's development.
Public schools in America are really coming to a place of crisis from what most teachers would agree on. Ever since the COVID pandemic especially, the bad student behaviors have really just been at an all-time high. Public schools have their hands tied where they can't really do much to discipline poor behavior. And parents at home enable the behaviors to continue, so then these negative behaviors just escalate over time. [00:24:17]
So, if you multiply this by five to eight students in every class, it really just leads to an immensely stressful environment for the kids and the teachers. And because of this, public school teachers are stretched very thin and are forced to take away lots of the privileges and fun things that would be in a classroom.
In my public school, teachers were actually being told that we needed to be mean to the students because they responded more to fear than love. Which really forces teachers to tuck away so much of the love and passion that they had when they began teaching because behaviors are really just out of control and there's such a lack of support in the public school system.
That was actually the main reason I stopped teaching in public school a few years ago. God just really clearly calls us in the Bible to be kind and tender-hearted and slow to anger. And I felt that in public school, I, as a teacher, was being asked to sin and act against how God was calling me to. [00:25:18]
Of course, students need firm boundaries, but I believe you can do that without being mean and you can do that in a way that still shows the character of Christ.
So, in public schools, teachers are just in oversized classrooms with countless bad behaviors to manage all day and little to no support from families or administration. So, even the teachers with the best of hearts are really being driven to negativity. And so many great teachers are actually leaving the profession because these impossible situations that they're being thrown into.
Then the students, of course, are in the classroom, too. And they're left with teachers at the end of their ropes and they're being exposed to so many bad examples of behavior from other students. And at such an impactful stage of a kid's life, these bad examples are just a really bad impact and can have really damaging consequences.
Not to mention, there's also all the progressive standards that are being pushed into the young ages of public schools. [00:26:19] And it's just a lot of negative impacts on your kids from lots of different ways to look at it with the public school system right now.
So, with private Christian schools, students are spending their day with teachers that are believers and students who come from supportive Christian homes. So, they're learning content that is centered around biblical teachings. It's really just a night-and-day difference between the public and private school setting.
In private school, instead of all of those negative impacts on your children, they're really just being poured into and supported. And they have godly role models to look up to and friends who share their beliefs. And in such an important time of life, those positive influences really make a big difference.
Laura Dugger: You're really making me think of a scripture as you explain this about them, the children being in the presence of a believing teacher. I'm just going to read Luke 6:40 here in the New King James Version. It says, "A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher." [00:27:24]
I do think when we're spending so much time with our teacher, inevitably we will become more like them. And so, you're just giving a lot of interesting points to think about. In this series, that's what we're hoping to do is to present a variety of options for school choices that's going to hopefully benefit both parents and students so that they can make informed decisions for what's wisest for their own family situation. So, Brianna, what are a few of your favorite reasons to recommend that they choose private elementary school?
Brianna Haworth: I would say the main thing really just comes down to trust. When you have a solid Christian school, it really provides a space where you feel safe to leave your children for the day and you trust the people in charge. I mean, I've heard that multiple times this year from the parents at my school that they just feel so safe leaving their kids with me for the day.
And you also just see more consistency in what you're teaching your kids at home and what they're being told at school, whether that's academics or behavior. [00:28:28] So much of the lifelong development and worldview has grown in these years, so it's important to just know who you're allowing to influence. And with private school, I think you can just have a lot more trust and you also have a lot more of a relationship with the teacher because of the smaller class sizes.
I feel I got so close to all of the parents of my class this past year and really just felt like I got to know them and their families really closely in a way that I truly just couldn't have in a public school setting.
Laura Dugger: Well, with your unique perspective as a teacher then, what kind of encouragement do you want to share with the parents and the students who are listening right now?
Brianna Haworth: I would just say it's really all about growth and progress and that that looks different for different people and it occurs at different paces and that's really just okay. In 2 Peter 3:18, God calls us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to Him be the glory. [00:29:27]
God doesn't call us to be perfect. He calls us to grow one degree at a time. So whether that be in academics or social interactions or just knowledge of our Savior, what really matters most is that students are listening to the Lord and following Him as they grow. It doesn't really matter where everyone else is at and it's not very helpful to spend your life comparing yourself to where other people are at. What really matters is to focus on growth.
Laura Dugger: Love it. You already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Brianna Haworth: Well, this isn't really teaching related, but it is something that has been really impactful that the Lord's been teaching me, especially these past few years of life. But being raised in a Christian environment, I often heard from church and my family that our life's purpose was to have an impact on others for God's glory. [00:30:28]
For me, this really led to extreme pressure on myself, especially when I was younger, and perfectionism. And so especially then as I became a teenager, I felt so much pressure to successfully impact others and bring God glory. And I would spread myself so thin trying to do things for God, and then I wouldn't see an impact. I felt like such a failure. And it led to a lot of heartache and even some distance from God as I felt like I just kept on failing Him.
But then the Lord really spoke to my heart when I was reading 2 Timothy. In chapter two, we're told to be a good soldier for Christ and that a soldier's aim is to please the one who enlisted him.
So thinking of my life's purpose being to please Christ rather than to impact others provided a lot of freedom as it really hands the weight of the outcome to the Lord. So each morning it's been my prayer that I would please God in the day ahead and please Him in my obedience to Him and in how I serve and show love to others and how I prioritize time with Him even. [00:31:32] And none of those things hinge on an outcome that's beyond my control.
So I've learned to leave the outcomes in God's hands, and it's really allowed me to just live into who God is calling me to be without all of the pressure slowing me down. That simple mind shift has really greatly impacted my faith, especially these past few years. I find it really helpful to share with others, too.
So it really frees you from living in the weight that was always meant to be left in God's hand and it allows you to celebrate what God is doing, even if the outcome might not be what you had hoped or expected.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much. Thank you for sharing. I can just tell through this conversation how much your students mean to you. You have just given us such valuable information and wisdom shared that we can just now hopefully discuss as we make these schooling choices. So thanks for sharing your time with us, Brianna.
Brianna Haworth: Thank you. Thanks for having me. [00:32:32]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:33:32] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:34:31]
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:35:35] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Aug 21, 2023
Monday Aug 21, 2023
*Disclaimer* This episode is not intended for young ears.
208. Tremendous Testimony and Adding Spark into Your Marriage with David & Terri Sumlin
**Transcription Below**
James 4:8 (NKJV) "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- As it so often happens, What the enemy meant for evil, God used for your good. How did He begin to do that?
- What are some practical things we can be doing in our own relationships to prioritize and delight in our marriages?
- What specific stories can you share to encourage married couples and parents?
David and Terri Sumlin are co-founders of Marriage Life Ministries and authors of the Oneness of Marriage®, Intimacy of Marriage®, and Marriage Innovators Workshop® series designed to help couples enrich their marriages through the application of biblical principles and adventure-based learning. They both have served over the last 18 years as international marriage educators, retreat leaders, pastoral counselors, and conference speakers.
Their unique approach to marital education is built upon some of the advances found in neuroscience, psychology, physiology, and adventure-based therapy, which ultimately is tested through the lens of God’s word for validation. The result is an Activity-Based Marital Enrichment process that helps couples derive behavioral transformation and sustained learning. Couples who participate in these types of marital enrichment programs are 84% more likely to report having increased levels of marital satisfaction long after the program has ended.
David is a native Texan and earned his bachelor's degree in finance from the University of North Texas. He served as a management consultant with the American Productivity & Quality Center and later as an executive for Hewlett Packard. In 2002, after sensing God’s call to enter full-time vocational ministry, David enrolled at Dallas Theological Seminary to pursue a master’s degree in biblical counseling as well as a doctorate in marriage and family ministry. Upon graduating from DTS, he received his call to pastor a church in northwest Houston for seven years before serving as a full-time marriage educator.
Terri was born in Ashland, Kentucky. She earned her bachelor’s degree in Education from the University of North Texas. Upon graduating, Terri has been blessed with a 23-year career as an English teacher. Terri is a leader in women’s ministry and serves full-time alongside David in their combined marriage and family ministry.
David and Terri currently live in Houston, TX and will celebrate their 33rd wedding anniversary this year. They have two children, a son Robin and a daughter Morgan who married the love of her life, Zach and gave the Sumlin’s their first grandson, Brooks and granddaughter Sadie.
The Types of Marital Programs that we offer are three-fold. Marriage Adventures are 7-day high adrenaline programs that include white-water rafting, challenge courses, and other high adventure activities designed to engage the emotional, cognitive, and behavioral parts of marital enrichment. Marriage Outbacks provide much of the same experiential-based learning objectives as our Adventure programs except that it is condensed into a weekend version where couples rough it in the great outdoors. The third type of program that we offer is our romantic Marriage Getaways hosted in intimate locations around the world.
Conferences, Workshops, & Pastoral Counseling. In addition to our highly successful marital enrichment programs, we also facilitate marital education for churches, small groups, and organizations in both large conference and intimate workshop venues. In addition, we offer pastoral marriage support and pre-marital counseling on a case-by-case basis.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Intimate-Focus
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
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David and Terri Sumlin are my guests today, and they have a tremendous testimony. They're going to share their story with us now and give us fascinating insight into practical ways we can delight more in our own marriage.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, David and Terri. [00:01:18]
David Sumlin: Yes, thank you.
Terri Sumlin: Hi, we're excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start with the two of you taking us back to when you met and fell in love.
David Sumlin: Terri and I met when we were at the University of North Texas back in the early 80s. We were both officers in our respective fraternities and sororities. There was a leadership retreat on campus. I was probably a first-year senior. Terri was an incoming sophomore. Never met her before, but we got assigned to the same small group together. And it was there that I was captivated, couldn't keep my eyes off her.
Remembering the icebreaker that we had was paying a compliment to one another in the group. I knew everybody in the group, didn't know Terri. Got to Terri, and I just looked at her, and I just had this kind of one of those moments where your mouth opens up and starts saying things before your brain can catch up to what you're doing.
And I just looked at her, and I said, "Those are the most gorgeous eyes I've ever seen." [00:02:19] And then I thought to myself, "Oh, my gosh, everyone in the group just heard what I said." So embarrassed, thought I'd never see her again. And it turns out God had a different story.
Terri Sumlin: But I like your question. That's how we met. But to fall in love, we both admit we probably didn't know what love was. We were both young, weren't walking with the Lord, and so we probably even through our first seven years of marriage even, it was more infatuation. It was lust. We got married out of lust and infatuation. And it wasn't until God stepped in that showed us what love was. So we probably fell in love seven years into our marriage.
David Sumlin: Yeah, yeah.
Laura Dugger: Well, I love the honesty there. So if you take us back maybe to that time early on before you were in love, what difficulties did you go through early on as a married couple?
Terri Sumlin: Well, we were young. I was married at 22, and then we had children immediately. So within our first year of marriage, we had our first child, and then 20 months later, we had our second. [00:03:20]
So it was just a struggle. We didn't have the foundation of a strong friendship because, again, we got married probably with the wrong motives. Neither one of us were walking in a personal relationship with the Lord, so we didn't have that foundation.
We were just trying to make it work by ourselves. And with a young family, David just dove headfirst into his career and felt how important it was to make money. So he devoted his life to his career and climbing that corporate ladder, where I turned to my job as a teacher and raising the children.
So our marriage was not a priority by any means. So we just started to drift apart, and we didn't have any common ground, any common bond that was keeping us together to fight for ourselves.
David Sumlin: Yeah. I would even add to that I was a consultant. I worked for a productivity company. And work, that's where I felt affirmed. I did not feel affirmed when we were together because it was always about the business of running kids and raising a family. [00:04:20] But work is where I got my accolades. That's where I felt like I had what it takes to be successful.
So I dedicated almost 100% of my time to my work. I traveled a great deal. In fact, traveled so much. There was a three-year stint where I would leave, go to the airport, catch a plane on Sunday afternoon, fly around the world, and wouldn't come back until the following Friday. So basically for a good three years I was just a weekend dad, a weekend husband. If even that, because we often fought most of Saturday.
It just got to a point where I just didn't really want to come home anymore. I've got to be in New York on Monday, so I'm just going to go ahead and stay where we were. So, yeah, that didn't help.
Laura Dugger: And I can see where a lot of couples may relate to that type of story. Sometimes it goes even further than that into more harmful or destructive choices. So with the two of you not having the Lord in your life and being married, but not turning toward one another, it sounds like you were turning toward work, David. And Terri, where were you turning? [00:05:33]
Terri Sumlin: Well, unfortunately... well, I did. I was trying to be affirmed as a mother through my children, but those emotional needs that I had were definitely not being met. And so I did. I turned to another man. So I did step out of our relationship. While David was traveling for a few months, I stepped into having an affair with a man that I was working with, thinking that he was going to fill my heart, meet all my needs, those emotional needs that David was not meeting. So, yeah, so I did. I made a very bad choice trying to seek affirmation, trying to seek acceptance, and love from somebody else since I wasn't getting it from my husband.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for even sharing that. We've heard from listeners who are walking a similar path and they find themselves here where they can't believe they're on this trajectory. But just going back, I'm thinking, again, not having the faith piece, how did you two decide to stay together after that? [00:06:33]
David Sumlin: Well, it was interesting. After Terri had confessed the affair, I went into just rage. I was just so angry with everything. It was actually my father, my estranged father, whom I didn't talk to for seven years because he divorced our family. Turns out he married his secretary and he had an affair. He came back into our lives at that moment, perhaps because my mother had called him and asked him to get over to our house because I was about to do something stupid.
My father, who became a Christian during the seven years I didn't talk to him, invited us to go to church with him. In fact, the next morning after Terri had confessed the affair on Saturday, when I went to that church service for the first time and listened to this pastor from the pulpit give this message, I'll be honest, I thought I was the only one in the sanctuary. I'm thinking to myself, "How could this pastor absolutely know how I'm feeling right now?" [00:07:32] And I wanted more of that.
So for the next couple of years, I just threw myself into knowing everything I could about Jesus. Nothing else mattered. He was my solace. He was my refuge where I would turn to, even though Terri and I were going through that time of reconciliation.
Terri Sumlin: For me, God used that storm. He used the affair. He used what David and I were going through. I'll never forget. It was one night. We had had a huge fight like we always had, and David finally broke down and he just says, "You know, I'm done. I'm done. I want a divorce. This is over. I want a divorce." And it was that night that Jesus just grabbed me because I was at one minute screaming back at David, "Good, I hate you. I want out of this marriage."
But then Jesus took hold of my heart. It's so difficult to describe this to somebody. Nothing I did, but He just took hold of my heart and he brought me to my knees. All of a sudden I'm crying. I'm shaking. [00:08:33] I can't breathe. And all of a sudden I just get on my knees and I cry out to David, "Don't leave. Don't leave. I want to make this work. Please don't leave."
It was that night that Jesus called me into a personal relationship with Him. And He knew that that had to happen because the next morning I woke up, I felt like a different person. I felt like I was free. I felt like a renewed spirit, a renewed heart, a renewed soul.
A couple of days later God used some circumstances at a camping trip that caused me to confess my affair to David. That was the moment. I never would have done that. Never would have done that if Jesus had not already accepted me and forgiven me and shown me how much He loved me and transformed my heart.
So He knew I had to be transformed first. And then from that, that's when I was able to feel safe enough to confess my affair to David and then trust God with what was going to happen from there. And that's eventually what led David to what he just described as well. [00:09:33]
David Sumlin: Yeah. And for a lot of couples who are trying to go through this season of reconciliation, while the church can certainly and is a refuge for many of those couples, Terri and I were on two separate tracks. She was pursuing her faith with God by getting involved in women's studies and prayer groups and things like that, while I had a separate track getting involved in more the care ministry side of church.
So even though we chose during those two years of reconciliation after the confession of the affair to stay in church together, we still were on two separate tracks, and rarely did those tracks ever meet up with one another.
Part of that, during that time, Terri got involved in youth ministry. So it's interesting how God used a very specific event to really bring us both to our knees. Terri's involved in youth ministry. Two years after the affair was confessed, we're still trying to heal from this, but no one in the church knew about our little dark secret. Nobody knew about the affair. [00:10:40] Nobody knew that I was still harboring bitterness and resentment and unforgiveness.
We rarely slept in the same room during those two years. We never, I think, even uttered the words, I love you. And then it happened two years after the confession, our youth group in our church is taking a ski trip to Colorado as part of a youth conference with five other churches. And the youth pastor comes up to Terri two days before the trip and says, "Terri, we've got a problem. Our adult chaperones have just backed out. Is there any way you and David could go on this trip and chaperone these high school students?" And we said, "Well, it's Christmas. We're on vacation. So yeah, we can go as long as we can bring our two little kids with us." And off we go and do the very best we can do, sleeping in the same hotel room for a week.
Fast forward, now it's time to come home. We finished the conference, finished our ski trip, and our youth pastor on the day of departure from the hotel in Crested Butte decides to make one more run down the mountain with all the students. [00:11:46] Our bus was supposed to leave the hotel at 12 o'clock in the afternoon, and we don't end up leaving until seven o'clock at night.
By this time, the 73-year-old bus driver is beside himself. He is so angry with our youth pastor because he knows he's going to miss the driver exchange in El Paso. So off we go. We're the first of five trailway buses following a snowplow through Monarch Pass, these windy roads in the mountains of Colorado.
And it's there that our bus driver, about nine o'clock at night, decides to make a bold move and pass the snowplow. The second bus behind us said, "You were going so fast we lost sight of you within seconds." As our bus is winding its way through these windy roads in the mountains, it hits the first patch of black ice, slams the bus into the side of the mountain. He brings it back under control. I'm sitting right behind the driver with my son, and Terri's right behind me with my five-year-old daughter. [00:12:41]
Terri stands up, screams at the driver, "You're going too fast, slow down." The youth pastor next to me gets up, goes to the back of the bus, because he knows what's about to happen, gets all the students to get down in the middle of the aisle. And as the bus is approaching a big wide turn in the mountain, it's there he hits the second patch of black ice, spins the bus completely backwards, and we go off the mountain at 75 miles an hour, is what the black box recorded the wheel speed.
As the bus is rolling down the mountain, rather bouncing down the mountain, ripping the roof further and further off the bus, it's depositing 55 students and six adults all down the mountain. Now, sadly enough, there were three fatalities in that accident. They flew in army helicopters to triage everyone that was alive to five different hospitals all over Colorado. And they took me to a local country hospital in Canyon City, and I'm laying on the emergency room table, head strapped to the table. [00:13:39] I didn't know what was going on. In fact, I had a severe concussion. I remember a boy, he told me, came up to me afterwards and looked at me on the mountain. Had blood all over my face, broken arms, everything. And he looks at me and he says, "Mr. Sumlin, are you okay?" And I said, "I'm not Mr. Sumlin. I'm Joshua." I had no idea who I was.
And so I'm in that state on that emergency room table. A nurse keeps coming in and asking me questions. You know, do you know where you are? Do you know your name? What happened? I don't know any of that. I know my name's David, and I kept telling her I was 18 years old. Then she brings in my son, and she says, "David, I know you can't see him, but I've got a young boy here. His name is Robin. Do you know him? We're trying to find his parents."
Now, I can't see him, but he can see me. And he just screams up, "Dad!" And it just starts coming back to me. And I asked the nurse, I said, "Where's Terri?" She goes, "I'm sorry, we don't know. [00:14:40] We don't know where. You've all been taken to five different hospitals all over Colorado."
In that moment, I began praying out loud for the very first time, "God, why did you allow this to happen?" I don't hear anything. No answer. And then all of a sudden, it feels like all my thoughts are getting interrupted. I can't hold onto a thought more than just a few seconds.
And then I start hearing this word over and over again in my head, the same word I used with Terri two years prior when I wanted a divorce. "Done. Done. David, you're done. You're done with your corporate career. You're done with the money, the possessions. David, you're done holding onto this bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness towards Terri. You need to find Terri. You need to tell her that you forgive her for that affair and that you were in love with her."
The ironic thing about the whole thing is my whole family was triaged to that local hospital. The doctors and nurses just didn't know it. It took them two days before they could figure out who kind of belonged to who. [00:15:42] I remember them wheeling my bed into Terri's intensive care unit. By that time, all the doctors, family, they're all in the room. I didn't care. I made everybody leave. Everybody leave. Shut the door.
And I looked at my wife, who was unconscious, laying on the hospital bed. She got beat up bad. She severed her spine in several places, broke her ribs, her arms. Her head looked like a basketball, swollen, black and blue. Tubes in her nose and mouth. I didn't care. I looked at her and I said, "Terri, I don't know if you can hear me or not, but I need you to know something. I need you to know that I forgive you for that affair two years ago and I am so in love with you."
Terri remained in the hospital for four months, surgery after surgery. They didn't think she was ever going to walk again. By that time, I was an executive at Hewlett-Packard. And I remember walking in on crutches in January to my senior vice president's office. It was performance review time. [00:16:44] And he sat me down, he said, "David, I'm so sorry for what's happening in your family. Please know the companies behind you will do anything to help support you. And in terms of performance review, you can have anything you want. What do you want? Name it. You want Asia, it's yours. You want Europe, it's yours. And I just remember looking at him and saying, "You know what? I'm done. I'm done. I believe God is calling me and my wife into something that's so bigger than ourselves."
Just to walk alongside other married couples and help tilt their chin two inches up to get God's perspective of what really is important in this life. And it's an amazing thing God did. Just to give us perspective of what really is important. Because it's not the money. Not the possessions. It's not even sometimes what we think we deserve or are entitled. What's really important on this side of heaven is the person you're married to. It's the person you're living life with, the family you're living life with, and a relationship with God. [00:17:49]
It's flipped us totally upside down. That was really what we needed to change our trajectory and move us in a different direction in terms of our healing and our purpose, life purpose, for what we do now.
Laura Dugger: I am stunned by hearing the account of your story. Terri, is there anything you would also add from your side?
Terri Sumlin: As far as the story itself goes, unfortunately, from when I stood up and told the bus driver to slow down, they said I was awake and talking, but I don't have another memory until like a week later. So the details of the story, people ask me all the time, when he came in and said he forgives you and loves you, how did you react? I'm like, I hate to say that I was unconscious. I don't remember that.
But I do remember the feelings afterwards when we flew back to Houston and David was by my side and I got to see it wasn't just words. [00:18:51] I got to see his forgiveness. I got to experience his love and his new perspective and change in life.
Something so horrific... People are like, "Oh, you know, I'm so sorry that happened." And I'm like, "Yes, the events of it were horrific, but the outcome was beautiful." And if that's what it took for God to bring us to the other side of our faith, the other side of our marriage, to restore us, then you know what? I'm thankful for it. I'm thankful that he didn't give up on us. I'm thankful that He just didn't let us live in our sin and our misery. But He used something like a bus accident to bring us out of that, to renew our focus and renew our hearts.
Laura Dugger: And I'm assuming your children were okay in the accident as well.
Terri Sumlin: They were. Our son is the only one on the whole bus, did not have a scratch on him. They think he landed on top of David and bounced off of him.
Our daughter has a pretty bad laceration across her face and broke her ankle. And she still has some anxiety issues. [00:19:50] She'll be 30 next month and she still has anxiety issues and some PTSD from the event. But other than that, they're good. They're fine.
Laura Dugger: Understandable. That is like you described, such a horrific event. And yet as it so often happens, what the enemy meant for evil, God used for your good.
Terri Sumlin: Definitely.
Laura Dugger: How did he continue to do that?
Terri Sumlin: Just even the way we're living today, if you would have asked us 20 years ago, 15 years ago, that we would be doing and helping other couples in their marriages and help them see God's design for marriage, we probably would have laughed because we ourselves were so miserable. But he just used this event. He used even the affair I had to help other people understand expectations, to help other people understand...
I mean, I know the reason I had the affair is I had a void in my heart, an emptiness in my heart, and I expected my husband to fill that. [00:20:50] And when he didn't, I went and tried to find someone else who could. But God used that emptiness and that void in my heart to, again, bring me back to him. So it's really helped not only in our own marriage but for us to understand possibly what other couples are going through. I can understand loneliness. I can understand insecurity.
We understand unforgiveness, unmet expectations. We've lived so much of it that I think God is... that's why I think he's blessed our ministry, that we can walk alongside other couples and really help them with empathy, not just sympathy or not just with tools and knowledge, but with true empathy because we've been there. So He's using our misery for our ministry, as we hear all the time.
David Sumlin: Yeah, and it's interesting. I people sometimes when they ask what we do, I say, you know, in some sense we certainly are gypsies. We don't ever stay home or on the road two to three months at a time. But in another way, I would consider ourselves kind of like stormologists. [00:21:52] We study the storms of marriage and family. And what's beautiful about that, just walking alongside other couples who might be going through storms, is for those couples that kind of lean into God during those difficult life circumstances, what I've noticed and what I've come to learn over the years is that God can use the storms, certainly can use the storms of marriage, of family, not just to bring you to the other side of rest or peace or comfort.
I believe God uses the storms in our lives to bring us to the other side of our faith. There's such a beautiful picture of how Jesus does that, even in the midst of His own storm with His disciples as they're going across the Sea of Galilee. God can use those storms to help reveal His power, His presence in our lives. I tell you, if I'm in a storm, I do not want to take one step out of that storm until I've learned everything God wants me to know. [00:23:03]
Terri Sumlin: And another part of the storm part and another way that God is using our ministry, I think, to help understand others is we love what He did for us. He had to break us down. He had to totally get us to confess our sins, to look at how sinful we have been. He had to get us to that point of brokenness before He could begin to redeem and restore us, not only individually, but also our marriage.
One of our favorite scriptures we use with couples as well is in James 4:8-9. He says, "Cleanse your hands, you sinners, be miserable. Let your joy turn to mourning. Let your celebrations turn to gloom." In other words, you should be able to look at your sin. When you look at your sin, you should be so broken that you know that nothing else can get you out of where you are except for the grace of Jesus Christ. And that's where He had us. We had to get to that point of brokenness, that storm of brokenness, before He could restore us individually and our marriage. [00:24:06]
That's what we're able to tell other couples from personal experience. We counsel with a lot of couples now, and we're looking for what we call that James 4 moment. Have you had that James 4 moment? Have you had that moment of brokenness where you're truly looking at your sin with repentance? Are you accepting the grace of Jesus Christ to cover your sin? Because you have to get to that point before He can begin to restore you or your marriage or your relationship, whatever that might be.
So it's sort of our code word now. It's like, okay, have we seen the James 4 moment yet that He brought us to? Or have we not? Or is God still working in that heart? Is there still some work that He's doing?
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[00:26:04] <music>
Laura Dugger: It's clear that God has restored and redeemed your lives and your marriage. But if you catch us up to present day, after that moment of leaving your corporate job, David, how did the two of you launch into marriage ministry, and what does it look like today?
David Sumlin: In those days, when I told my senior vice president I was done, we had prayed for two years about just, okay, what can God do with this? My younger brother was already in seminary at Dallas Theological Seminary, and we prayed about it. So I enrolled, went to seminary, got my master's in biblical counseling, as well as my doctorate in marriage and family ministry.
During that time, we were introduced to an opportunity at a place called JH Ranch in Northern California. It's a camp where they lead week-long retreats for parent teens, and they were just in the midst of starting a marriage tract where husband and wives could go and experience this adventure-type ministry. [00:27:16]
The chairman of the board heard our story, heard about the affair, the bus accident, and also knew that I was in seminary, and invited us to come out and lead the husband and wife program. That was, gosh, that was nearly 18 years ago. And we've been out there ever since. It's a big part of our ministry.
We just decided to... we led a life of surrender. We sold everything, you know. Back then, we had a 6,000-square-foot home on a golf course, beautiful cars, possessions. We sold everything, got rid of everything so that we could become itinerant for the Lord.
It was during that time, God was kind of building this marriage ministry, our passion for walking alongside other couples, and it just kept growing and growing and growing beyond the walls of JH Ranch into other areas. Winshape, for example, a ministry founded by Chick-fil-A, called us in to start leading some of their retreats and adventures. [00:28:20]
So it's brought us to a point now we... I guess several years ago, probably going on 10 years now, maybe decided to, you know, maybe God's calling us to start a ministry. So we founded Marriage Life Ministries, for which we now lead probably upwards of 40 to 50 events per year.
Even though we have a house here in Houston, Texas, we're here probably maybe four or five weeks a year. We are on the road constantly, two to three months at a time, ministering to a little over 10,000 marriages every 12 months. And in the midst of leading these high adventure retreats, which is kind of our specialty, we also do a whole lot of counseling with couples.
Terri Sumlin: And he mentioned high adventure. In Northern California at JH Ranch and some of the other places we do, the high adventure is high ropes courses. It's whitewater rafting. It's horseback riding. It's, you know, just anything to get you out of your comfort zone to help you lean on God and lean on each other more. [00:29:27]
David's whole dissertation, his doctorate was about the advantages of adventure-based learning in marriages. So it's not sitting in a classroom getting lecture to filling in blanks type thing. All of our retreats are incorporating some type of activity. Even if we're not at a place where we can do the high ropes courses, we're still doing low ropes, we're still doing activities where couples actually have to get out of their seats and do something to help reinforce the principles or the ideas that we're trying to teach or that scripture is telling us about.
So ours are a little different. We've been to many retreats that are very good, but they're more of a classroom setting. We want to do things differently, that you're out of your seat. You're actually doing things actively to help reinforce ideas.
Laura Dugger: There's even brain science behind that, that makes it stick.
Terri Sumlin: Definitely.
David Sumlin: Well, if I could just get a little geeky.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely.
David Sumlin: I'm a research nut. [00:30:24] It was during that period of time of healing where Terri and I... you know, Terri would say during those two years, shortly after she confessed the affair, "David, let's go to a marriage retreat. Let's get help. Let's go to a counselor." And I would try those things. We'd go to a weekend marriage conference and I would end up leaving Friday night shortly after the opening comments, because I'm like, Yeah, these people don't know what we're going through kind of thing.
So when I set out on my doctoral research, what I wanted to do is kind of entertain the question, is there a different way to bring about marital enrichment, especially for couples who are trying to heal. So for four years, I made this camp up in Northern California, JH Ranch. It was my research laboratory. I would take couples and I would strap biofeedback monitors on these couples as they were traversing these obstacle courses 50 feet up in the air kind of thing.
And I had these biofeedback monitors tethered through Bluetooth to an iPad where I'm watching, monitoring heart rates, breathing, video cameras, recording eye movement, verbal communication, body language, the whole nine yards. [00:31:40]
What I noticed is that when couples get into an escalated state, and Dr. John Gottman really kind of talks more about this, it's those times of escalation, those times of fight, flight, or freeze where we don't believe our spouse understands what we're trying to tell them. And it's in those moments where we get into an escalated state, our sympathetic nervous system kicks in, adrenaline is running through our body, and we get into that lockdown. We just cannot make sense of what's going on in our argument.
Dr. Gottman, a lot of counselors will say, well, take a timeout, which is absolutely a thing you want to do if you're in an escalated state. You want to allow the parasympathetic nervous system to kick in and reverse the process, bring you to a state of equilibrium. But a lot of counselors, Gottman included, will say, I wonder if we could in the moment equip couples with tools to help them de-escalate.
So the whole premise of my research was, what if I could teach couples how to resolve conflict in the morning and then simulate conflict in the afternoon by putting them 50 feet up in the air on these tight ropes, traversing obstacles through the canopy of the trees, strapped into harness systems. [00:32:54] And it was true.
As soon as these couples would get even strapped in with their helmet and their harness, their heart rates would start escalating. And we know that physiologically, if your heart rate is above 95 beats per minute, there's a good chance you can get into that fight, flight, or freeze mode.
So these couples, as they're in clearly an escalated state, what we noticed is couples who would employ the tools we gave them, deep breathing, long exhales, looking into each other's eyes, honey, it's okay, we're on the same team, we can do this together, I tell you what, put your hands on my shoulders, I'm here with you. Those couples, one, their heart rates came down a lot faster. The parasympathetic nervous system kicked in much sooner.
Then we would monitor their relationships. We used instruments to measure their level of marital quality or marital satisfaction before they arrived to the event. [00:33:53] Again, on the day of departure, seven days later. And then we would also measure that at intervals of three months, six months, nine months after the event.
And what we noticed is that 84% of couples who engage some kind of experiential learning opportunity in the midst of their healing, those couples, 84% of those couples, sustain the incremental improvements to their marriage well beyond the actual event, which is much different than traditional counseling, which a lot of counselors, if they're willing to be honest and admit, you know, really only about 11% of couples who go to traditional counseling will sustain the incremental benefits of the counseling intervention.
But sadly, 90% of couples could, in fact, relapse two months to two years after the counseling event and go back to the way they were. So we wanted to do something different. And it's amazing how many counselors will refer their most difficult cases to our adventure-based marital enrichment programs. [00:35:01] And it's amazing what God does through that. These couples will leave saying, this was absolutely the best part of our entire marriage, just being able to be present with God in the midst of doing something very experiential. So I love what we do.
Laura Dugger: I think that's fascinating. It makes me wonder, based on all of your research, what are some practical things that all of us can be doing in our own relationships to prioritize and delight in our marriages?
Terri Sumlin: Quite a few things. We'll just sit on a few of them. One is making sure the first thing is use the word prioritize to prioritize your marriage and make it the most important relationship thing you do on this side of heaven.
Second, too, your definitely a personal walk with the Lord. But it's active dating. It's being intentional about your dating each other consistently once a week. [00:36:00] A lot of couples are like, "Once a week. I have two little kids. I can't do that, whatever." And when we say once a week, we just mean carve out a couple of hours every week to have quality time together.
It doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of money going out with a babysitter and so forth, but just at least once a week where you have quality time, where you're not talking business, finances, kids, etc., but you're doing something that's going to create a memory. Maybe it's a picnic in the backyard. Maybe it is going out to something fun. We do reinforce active dating as much as possible, just like the adventure-based learning. It's getting your heart rate up. Go bowling. Go do something fun and adventurous. Try novel ideas you've never done before. But do things that are going to create positive memories and putting those positive deposits into the neural pathways in your brain.
So definitely active dating or some type of date at least once a week where you're saying no to children, no to the busyness of the world, no to dishes, and so forth, but say yes to your marriage, where you're spending quality time.
We actually have some date cards that we've created. [00:37:01] So even if you are just going to dinner, that's fine. But we give you cards to talk about during dinner that's going to help you remember wonderful memories you've had or dream about the future or affirm each other and just really dwelling on the positive.
So our days of just going at dates and playing on our phones and staring into space, those are over. We try to be real creative and different, even the days where we're just going to dinner type thing.
David Sumlin: Yeah. Another thing I think that we really emphasize with couples we work with is how to navigate through unmet expectations. This has been a game changer for not just me and Terri, but for the couples we work with. We've created something we call an expectations inventory where you're cataloging, taking inventory of all the expectations you have of yourself as a husband, as a wife, as a father, mother, in all these different areas of your relationship, working with kids, how we communicate, how we resolve conflict, how we spend our leisure time, all those things. [00:38:00]
But taking inventory of the expectations you have yourself and the expectations you have of the other person. And then the third column of that is now list all the expectations you believe your spouse has of you. Once we get them to catalog all these expectations, then we have them go circle all the unmet expectations.
What we want to know is are those expectations realistic? If they're not, can you give yourself permission to take it off your list, take that expectation down? If it is important, but you're not meeting it, then what can we do to either negotiate that expectation to where it is realistic or how do we cope with it?
I got just a quick story. Terri and I did this. We were getting ready to celebrate our 30th anniversary and 30th anniversaries are big. And we wanted to go to... I had this dream of going to Italy and just spending two weeks in Italy. But it was during COVID, you know, the whole world shut down. [00:39:01] So we ended up going to the one place that allows anybody. And we went to Mexico. So we got a first-class all-inclusive resort in Mexico and we spent some money on it.
But I knew that two weeks before we left to go on our vacation, our anniversary trip, I knew just from previous experiences that if one of us says something or does something that falls short of the other's expectation, it certainly can ruin that day, if not the whole vacation. So I told Terri, what I want to do is I want us to go on a hike. Just go through a national... there's a national forest close by our house.
Let's go on a three-hour hike together. We're going to get our heart rates up. We know that when we do that and have a meaningful conversation, couples tend to remember those conversations much more than they would if they was just sitting in a chair.
So for the entire three hours, we hiked through this national forest. We talked through every expectation we had of that Mexico vacation or that anniversary trip. [00:39:59] Everything down to the details of what I expected Terri to wear, you know, are these nights going to be flirtatious nights or are they going to be just sitting down at a sports bar watching the national college football championship kind of thing.
And it gave us an opportunity during those three hours to say, Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I know that's your expectation, but I'm not sure that's realistic. What if we did this instead or if we kind of modified that?
What ended up happening is by the time we went to Mexico, it ended up being the best week of our entire marriage because we didn't have to deal with any unmet expectations. We knew it was important to the other person and we had already agreed.
Terri Sumlin: And we've taken that same concept and now we apply that to almost every day. So we would highly encourage couples... you know, a lot of couples say, well, we don't really have expectations. But I would challenge that. Pretty much every argument you get in with anybody is because one or both of you have not met the expectations. [00:41:00]
The other person didn't do or say or react the way you had hoped or would have expected them to. We, again, encourage couples to do this every day. If we're going to go do something, what are your expectations? Is this going to be this kind of date or is it going to be a fun date or romantic date? Okay, we're going with the kids to this event. What are your expectations?
Just really talking about realistically, are your expectations realistic? Are they not? And yeah, that has become a new vocabulary for us. Almost every day before we enter anything, we have that discussion.
Laura Dugger: There's an exciting project taking place behind the scenes right now, and I would love to invite you to participate. I will give you more details as I'm able, but for now, here's my request. Will you email me your personal story of a specific way God has clearly shown up in your life? Big or small, I want to hear an account of the way he made Himself known to you and maybe received credit for an answered prayer or a way He worked out a situation in a miraculous way or how He displayed His power in your life. [00:42:10]
There's no limit to the type of story to submit as long as it's true. So please email me your story at this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. I can't wait to read your story. Thanks for sharing. I want to speak to parenting a little bit too, but first just to understand when you quit your job, left Texas headed to JH Ranch in California, what ages were your kids at that phase? And what did family life look like at that time?
Terri Sumlin: We actually found out about the ranch because David in the healing of our marriage, but also healing as a father, he took both of our children out there as a father child, part of JH Ranch. And that's how we were first introduced to it.
So they, at that time, when he took each of them out there, they were probably 12. So by the time we did our first retreat, I would say our son was probably 14 and our daughter was 12. [00:43:09] That was the very first retreat we ever did. So as parents, I will say when the kids were younger in the midst of our turmoil and so forth in our marriage, we were not the best parents. I was basically a single mom. So we don't have a whole lot of stories to tell. Oh, this is the perfect way to do it as, you know, raising your children.
But once we found the Lord and recognized his way and decided to put our marriage as a priority, our children were old enough to understand that. I still remember the first time I told my daughter… she wanted to go shopping at a mall for a homecoming dress, and I told her no, because I was going on a date with her dad. She was appalled. What, what? But now that was the beginning of a change. And now she can go back and say, "I'm glad I saw that towards the end of while I was at home. I saw you prioritize marriage over us."
It's really hard, especially for moms. We are that nurturer and we just want to put our children's needs before our own, before our spouses, and so forth. So that can be really hard. But our children now, so appreciate and so respect what we do and our story behind it. [00:44:16] No judgment. They're just very proud of what we do. Again, they were old enough to remember the pain of the beginning of our relationship to see the blessings of it now.
David Sumlin: Yeah. I would also say it was during that time where we're so... keep in mind, you know, Terri and I are trying to heal our marriage, but we're also being introduced to a relationship with Christ at the same time. What we wanted to do in our healing with our children is also give that to them as well. So it's teaching both our son and daughter how to have an abiding relationship with Christ, what that looks like, what it looks like to pray together.
Our world was just turned upside down after that bus accident. They're now getting into a relationship with Christ. They're learning how to be involved in the church. It's interesting. My son in fact starts this week. He's now at Dallas seminary going through his master's program there as well. So both our children are incredibly Godly and do have an abiding relationship. [00:45:19] That was the most important piece. That was most important gift we could give them even out of that storm that we went through.
Terri Sumlin: So depending on the age of your children, when they're old enough to understand, but for them to understand that mom and dad love each other, that it's secure for your children to see, you know, you loving on your spouse, kissing each other, holding hands, being affectionate.
We always say for your kids to say, "You're gross," that's a good thing. We want our kids to see that mom and dad are good, that we are affectionate with each other. We do love each other. Because we have to remember this might be the only role model your children have of what marriage looks like is what you're giving them and what they're seeing every day. So we just want to make sure that's a God-honoring relationship that they're seeing.
Laura Dugger: Well, then to kind of wrap it up, but do either of you have any specific stories to share or unique encouragement for the married couple listening or the parents who are tuning in right now? [00:46:21]
David Sumlin: Just for starters, we get to see miracles every single week as we work with these couples. One of my favorite stories, you know, we were down in West Palm Beach, Florida, doing a retreat and the waiting list for retreats can be pretty hefty. And there was this one couple that had registered, but they were on the waiting list. They were actually going through a divorce. It was a Thursday. The retreat started Friday. It was a Thursday. They were sitting up in mediation with their attorneys.
An hour away from signing divorce papers, they're at the table, they get a call. The husband gets a call from our registrar who says, "Hey, congratulations. You've cleared the waiting list. You can go to the retreat tomorrow." And he looks at his wife across the table and says, "What do you think? One more chance?" And she says, "Yeah, what do we have to lose?" [00:47:19]
They go to the retreat by the end of the week... And we met with them several times, but at the end of the week-
Terri Sumlin: Weekend. In fact, it was only two days.
David Sumlin: Yeah. They stood up in front of the entire camp, shared their story about how they were an hour away from signing divorce papers. They decided to call off the divorce, move back in together. And now they coach with us and they've been doing that for several years.
Terri Sumlin: I think to David's point, yes, God... I used to... you know, because we do week-long retreats and then we do weekends. And I'm like, really, you're going to save a marriage in a weekend? But God can do anything. And just if we're submitting to Him and allow Him to work in our hearts, He can and will save any marriage, redeem any marriage, restore, enrich. A lot of people are like, do you have to be in distress to come to a marriage retreat? And we're like, absolutely not. Come just to get enriched, just to have positive memories with each other kind of thing.
The one thing I would say as well that has really, really helped us, and it all stemmed from the bus accident, is that idea of forgiveness and grace and expectations. [00:48:23] I think many of us go into marriage with expectations of the happily ever after, you know, and I just can't wait to get married, I'm going to be happy and you're going to meet all my needs, etc. But then we get into the reality of it and there is no way we can meet each other's needs. There is no way we'll be able to live up those expectations of perfection that many of us might have, even if we don't realize it. So it's understanding grace. It's understanding none of us are perfect. We're going to fall short every day. But Jesus doesn't hold on to our sins. He doesn't hold that against us. We are called to do the same. So I think that's the thing that David and I have learned and we've seen other couples.
We do something called a Trust Fall at the end of many of our retreats, where they really have to let go of something that's been holding them back. And many of them say it's unforgiveness. And so it's just every day. We don't let arguments last more than a few minutes. They used to last for weeks at a time. Now they last a few minutes. We still get into arguments. We do. [00:49:21] A lot of them quite often, because we're working together and living together and everything else.
But we've learned, you know what, it's not worth it. This relationship is the most beautiful thing. God has restored it. He's redeemed us. Why are we going to let a misunderstanding or an unmet expectation eat away at what God has brought us together? So we've learned to live in a state of forgiveness, of grace, and dealing with unmet expectations in a much better way. When couples are able to get there, God takes their marriages beyond anything you could imagine.
Laura Dugger: That is incredible and encouraging. And I hope that it specifically encourages someone listening today. So if they're intrigued for enrichment or if they're in crisis or just want to try something different, where can they go to learn more from you two and learn about your ministry?
David Sumlin: The easiest way to do that is to go to our website, MarriageLifeMinistries.com. In that, they can learn kind of where we'll be, our schedule. [00:50:24] So we're in cities all over the country as well as around the world. That's the first place I would go.
Then we occasionally have resources we put out there where they can download those and get some more help. Or just simply call. My number is listed on the website. They can call me directly on my cell phone. And we'll be happy to point them in the right direction if we're not the ones that can help them. We certainly know a lot of people that can.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And you two may already be aware our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
David Sumlin: That's good. I like that. You know, it's interesting. I think our savvy sauce and keep in mind, we just celebrated our 32nd wedding anniversary. And I would say the last couple of years have been the best years of our entire marriage. And here's why. [00:51:28]
We understand that there's different forms of intimacy. There's spiritual intimacy, emotional, physical, sensual, and sexual. We have taken a concerted interest in sensual intimacy and have made it an art form. It no longer is just a kiss, a peck on the cheek. Just not recently, we came home from dinner one night and I heard this song on the radio by Alicia Keys, Fallin'. I was so intrigued with that song and downloaded it by the time we got home.
I took Terri, fully clothed, put her on top of the kitchen counter, and we kissed for an hour and a half. It was as if we were taking a blank canvas and painting a Rembrandt. You know, just taking our level of intimacy. And that's carried over in the other fields of intimacy as well, spiritual and sexual and emotional and physical as well. It's just not taking each other for granted. [00:52:29]
Terri Sumlin: I would agree with that. Mine's a little bit different. It's Gary Chapman, love, his five languages of love and physical touch. So many people would associate that, oh, that's a man's thing and physical touch because men are, you know, sexually driven. But I have found in the last few years, my love language has turned into physical touch, non-sexual physical touch.
That's my savvy sauce for David just to be... when he's intentional about touching me, giving me a back rub, putting his hand on my leg, giving me a hug. When we're praying together, he's always touching the small of my back. We know the science behind it as well. There's so much science about the power of physical touch. For me, if there's tension between us, all I need is a hug, and it just melts.
In fact, David gets on to me because we go to restaurants or something, and I'll see couples that are very affectionate with each other, and they're touching each other a lot, non-sexually. And I always have to mention it on our way out. I'll go up to the couple, and I'll say something to them. And David gets so embarrassed. He's like, "You're stalking them." And I'm like, "No, it's beautiful." Because I know to me, that's my savvy sauce, is the power of non-sexual affectionate physical touch. [00:53:33] And it's something that's so easy to do. It doesn't take a lot of effort, but it's so powerful. So that's my opinion.
Laura Dugger: Great. And it's free.
Terri Sumlin: Yes, exactly. It's free, for sure.
Laura Dugger: Well, it is invigorating to get to spend time with such a happily married couple. I'm leaving this chat feeling energized and really excited for date night tonight with my own husband, so I'll get to share with him all that I've learned from the two of you. But thank you so much for so many things, for staying the course and fiercely loving one another and loving our Lord. And thank you for being my guest today.
David Sumlin: Yeah, it was a very nice meeting you.
Terri Sumlin: Our pleasure. Thank you so much for having us. So enjoyed it.
Laura Dugger: Ever since launching this podcast in 2018, our team has tried to release at least one episode every Monday morning. In addition, we also launched a secret bonus episode for paying patrons on the first of every month. But we're changing things up a bit. [00:54:33]
We will continue to release the bonus episode for paying patrons, but on those weeks, when it's the first of the month, that will be the only episode going live, which means next week on Monday, there will not be a brand new episode available for the general public.
If you've benefited from any messages on The Savvy Sauce, we would encourage you to support our work through joining Patreon. You can go to thesavvysauce.com, click on the Patreon tab, click "Join Patreon here", and then follow the prompts so that you can have access to all these bonus episodes and downloadable scripture cards. We hope you join us there. Otherwise, we'll see you back here in two weeks.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. [00:55:34] Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:38]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:45] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.