The Savvy Sauce

201 Knowing God, Self, and Others with Jada Edwards

201. Knowing God, Self, and Others with Jada Edwards

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Mark 12:30+31 (NIV) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Do you believe God talks to all of His children?
2. Why is it important to learn how God exclusively wired each of us?
3. You say "You can’t love well if you don’t love close." So, how can we love close in order to love well?

 

Jada Edwards is an experienced author, speaker, Bible

teacher, and mentor. She has committed her life to equipping women of all ages, regardless of marital status, with practical, biblical truth to help them live more genuine lives.

 

Jada currently serves as the Women’s Pastor and Creative Services Director for One Community Church, where she seeks to serve the evolving communities of Collin County through creative expression and cultural relevance.

 

She has served in various directional capacities within the youth and singles ministries at Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship, a church with over 1,000 youth and 3,000 singles.

 

Jada holds a Master of Business Administration with an emphasis in Organizational strategy and has experience improving organizations though process improvement and technological initiatives.

 

Jada and her husband, Conway, have a son named Joah and a daughter named Chloe.

 

Connect with Jada through her website, Instagram, or Facebook.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook. 

 

My enthralling guest for today is Jada Edwards. Jada is a speaker, author, Bible teacher, and mentor.  I felt like this conversation was a power hour of discipleship. I hope you enjoy this time as much as I did. 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jada.

 

Jada Edwards: Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be on.

 

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Looking forward to this. Let's just start here. Will you give us a flyover of who you are and what God has called you to in this season of life? [00:01:18] 

 

Jada Edwards: Oh, man. I am a scatterbrained wife, mother, teacher, sometimes author, doing a million things, and I still get the privilege of leading in our local church. I oversee a ministry area there. God has called me this season to navigate the chaos. 

 

So it is primarily motherhood, because my kids are little, they're nine and five, and secondarily church and ministry, really local church is second, and then ministry life. So kind of keeping those all in the mix.

 

Laura Dugger: You teach the Bible so well. What would you say is your favorite thing you've ever taught on?

 

Jada Edwards: Man, I don't know if I have a favorite thing ever, because the Bible is so good. But I will say what I'm teaching on now is the idea of what it means to love well, and using Jesus's explanation of the greatest commandments, the foremost commandment that summarizes all scripture, to love the Lord your God, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself. [00:02:32] And just the massive, under-appreciated implications of that. That everything that we wrestle with is a love issue. So that's what I'm getting to take the ladies at our church through right now, just what that looks like to study what God needs when He asks us to love us with all of who we are.

 

And I'm kind of tacking on to that, how to study the Bible. So one of my favorite things really is how to study scripture. I love getting to teach on Bible study methods. And so we're kind of doing both.

 

Laura Dugger: That's awesome. Do you want to give us just a little taste of how to study the Bible, ways that you recommend?

 

Jada Edwards: Yeah. Well, I like the inductive method. You know, it's not new. You just got to kind of keep it fresh in your mind. And that is observation, interpretation, application. Observation is that phase where you're just... what do you see? What do you know? It's background, context. Who was the audience? Who was the author? Time period. [00:03:33] What king was in power? What was going on in the world? 

 

And then just what you plainly see in the text.  You know, Jesus is answering a question. Paul is writing a letter to a church. Like just the very basic things of what you see answering kind of the who, what, when, where, why. 

 

And then interpretation is saying, well, what does that mean? And so it's really this idea of taking the context and observation and saying, well, what does this passage mean? Which really is, what did it originally mean to the original audience? 

 

And then application says, well, what does it mean to me? 23rd Psalm, for example, I'm not going to look for God to be my literal physical shepherd and make me lie down in the grass and be by a stream of water. So I have to know what that meant first to the original audience, to David, who was a shepherd, to what that metaphor meant to him. Now I can figure out what it means to me, how He restores me and gives me peace.

 

I like helping people walk through that because I think our tendency is to quickly run to application. [00:04:33] Read a verse, I want to hear a quick message. I want something tweetable, soundbite is the culture we're in right now, and I just wanted to fix something in my heart or give me a new insight or whatever. 

 

I think if we are patient with the word and do much more mining, much more digging in the observation and interpretation phases, then we will have a richer and more accurate result when we get to application. What does it mean to me?

 

Laura Dugger: Do you believe that God talks to all of His children?

 

Jada Edwards: Absolutely. I do. I'm like, if I as a believer I believe that we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit and I think that means the power of God endures me. And so He's not silent. He's got plenty to say. The answer is that because if He wasn't speaking in scripture, I would not say I could quench him. That means I'm shutting something down that's normally happening or should be happening when I'm walking in a way that pleases God. When I don't, then I quench Him. I shut Him down. [00:05:34] 

 

I can grieve Him, which means there's some fullness of joy and abundance that comes when I'm thriving and what God has asked me to do. Because when I don't, then the Bible says you can grieve Him, you can make Him sad, you can bring down his countenance because He's still a person.

 

And so, yeah, I think it's the only way that I have survived life is knowing that I can constantly hear the voice of God through His scripture, you know, through the people He brings my way and affirms by the spirit that's within.

 

Laura Dugger: I couldn't agree more with you. But if you had to articulate it, what do you think are some ways that God does invite each of us to lean into the Holy Spirit and hear what God is saying to us?

 

Jada Edwards: I really think scripture, for me, is such a gateway. And I know various denominations tend to come up with ideas. Holy Spirit is one of the most debated things among Christianity and among Christians. And so I know some people like experiential avenues, you know, some people like... you know, they think about these really distinct visitations of the spirit, things like that. [00:06:45] I'm not here to argue those points. I'm saying Jesus said with His own words, "I'm going to bring someone. He's going to be a comforter. He is going to guide you in all truth. He is going to bring to your remembrance things I've said."

 

So in my mind, I'm really not looking for the Holy Spirit to give me brand new revelation that's never been revealed in scripture. I'm looking for Him to apply, bring to my remembrance the things that the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ has already said. And so that's the application piece.

 

And, you know, he speaks so clearly through scripture. And then in His goodness, He'll have a friend or a sermon or, I mean, a commercial if you want to, anything kind of confirming what He's already said. But scripture is my home base. Even if I get a great word or great insight from a teacher or from a friend who loves God, I'm like, Okay, where is this true in scripture? That's kind of my true north.

 

Laura Dugger: And just to circle back to that scripture that you said you're kind of camping out on right now and it's most meaningful. [00:07:48] So as we're looking to love God more, how do you think we can incorporate some creativity into church so that we can know God better and love Him more?

 

Jada Edwards: Well, I think it's just, number one, being open to how God wants to use the gifts of the body. You look through scripture and you see all these kinds of spiritual gifts. Well, you already see diversity of giftedness. And then in addition to that, you see whatever generation you're living in, there's going to be a diversity of talents. And so how do I bring those in? Because God is creator. And I want to show people that there's so many different ways that God can be glorified or that we can point you back to God. 

 

I'm very grateful that our church... my husband and I, when we planted our church, creativity, and worship were such huge pieces for us. So I actually oversee our worship arts or creative arts ministry. And so that is like our dance team. They dance once a month. Our drama team, they're doing drama pieces, skits and monologues and things like that once a month. [00:08:51] Our choir and then our next-gen, our next generation groups. 

 

And so I love that we are intentional about incorporating those things. Because I can't tell you how many times someone has... maybe the sermon didn't resonate with them or they didn't get it, but the dance moved them and they were like, "Oh my gosh, y'all do this in church?" And we're like, "Yeah, because God created dance."

 

Or we have a painter or we have a violinist or we have a hip-hop rapper or whatever. It's just kind of like we try to stay very, very open to what God is saying and how He might be expressing Himself in the moment. 

 

And it's very important to see things happening in culture. When I see artists who are killing it, like they're great poets or actors or singers or whatever, and they're not in the church, all I'm thinking is there's someone great out there that love God. Like that belongs to God in my mind. All of your music, it belongs to God. [00:09:50] 

 

Now, my goal then is how do I find someone that does this excellently and does it to the glory of God? And we're going to try to bring them. I want to show people the world does not have the monopoly on great singing or great talent or great dancing. So that's been a really intentional piece for us to broaden people's perspective and understanding of how God gives glory through the arts.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that so much. I've heard you say before that crafts were meaningful to us as children, but that doesn't go away. We don't outgrow that. Would you elaborate on that thought?

 

Jada Edwards: Well, I think somehow assimilation starts to shut down imagination as we get older. So what seems right? Like what's the job you should have? What's going to be a good financial decision? What's the way you should raise your family or when should you have kids, or, you know, what color should your hair be? [00:10:54] It's like if I'm an adult and my hair is pink, then surely I can't have a real job, right? It's just kind of like certain things go hand in hand. 

 

I think as adults, we have to work to stay imaginative. And I don't mean making up things about God that are not true, but imagining all the ways God might want to express Himself, might want to show Himself off. And so, you know, does that mean that we... like I said, we might have a live painter on platform. Does that mean we've got a gymnast who, you know, making sure she's covered properly? We've had a gymnast on platform doing stuff because she loves Jesus and she gets to show people how walking with the Lord has been her source of discipline. I mean, just unimaginable things. 

 

And so it's an intentional effort to kind of get out of what is considered normal and say, Okay, how do we give back to the imaginative kids that we were? [00:11:56] Because I think we were closer to our purer selves when we were younger. And I think that's who God is. I think He's creator. I think He's creative. And so, yeah, we have to be very intentional about unpacking what seems normal and right and staying open to whatever artistic or creative thing God might want to do. Even if you don't feel artistic, He can do artistic things for you.

 

Laura Dugger: Those are a few ways to incorporate it into the church. But how can we also embrace creativity in our home to experience the beauty and the goodness of God?

 

Jada Edwards: Oh, well, I mean, I think there's so many things like what your thing is. Like if you love nature, Okay, then what are you doing in your home or with your family, with your friends that incorporates that? Do you do a nature walk? Have y'all decided to plant something as a family? Like everything is a lesson. 

 

We just got a little mini baby herb garden. I love cooking. I love fresh herbs. My kids love dirt. I was like, this all works. [00:12:57] And we're going to plant our little baby herb garden and we're going to talk about it. And we're going to learn about growth and seeds. You know, there's a million illustrations in that. And so we do that. 

 

Sometimes we do devotions in the morning. I'll have my son read something, you know, great book by Louie Giglio. I think it's called Incredible God or something like that. But he has a devotional book for children. But stuff like that. My son needs to practice reading and, you know, I need to make sure they're not... I need to fill their time because they can keep asking, can we watch TV? Can we do that? We're going to read this devotional. He reads it. We talk about it. My daughter chimes in. You know, it's a whole thing around the table where I don't care what it is. We'll pick a letter and say we're going to come up with 20 words that start with this letter. And then we're going to say, why did you come up with that? What made you think that?

 

And then we have crazy conversations about what they're thinking or what we're thinking. And so that just can't look a lot of different ways to me when we're inviting God into those spaces. And so even if it's not something artistic, I think sometimes the way we structure our day, structure our time, we got to get creative because we're in a season right now where breakfast for us, even though it's 6:30 in the morning, is our most consistent family time. [00:14:12] 

 

And so we spend a lot of time around the bar talking like we do in the mornings. And we're getting ready and stuff, but we're not in the space where we have dinner every day at six o'clock. I mean, we have like a couple, one or two nights a week where that's consistent. But breakfast is our go-to. We're all there in the morning. And so we make the most of that. It's our family devotional time, usually with my son.

 

So, yeah, I just think being open to how God may want to show up in your home and your friends and your family is important.

 

Laura Dugger: And is that book... is it called Indescribable? 

 

Jada Edwards: Indescribable, yes. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. I'm going through that right now with our daughter Shiloh, so connecting with what you're talking about.

 

Jada Edwards: It's so good. And it leads to so many conversations. To your point, it sparks creativity because it always starts with some great story about sharks or caterpillars or the earth or the moon. And my son is enraptured because he loves all those things. And then it turns a corner talking about how God shows up in our lives. [00:15:12] That sparks so many good conversations. And it keeps His mind thinking that, look at God in all these things. I can see God in everything. That's really my goal for them.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

[00:15:29] <music>

 

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[00:17:22] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: We're the only one who can be responsible to know ourselves and understand how God created us individually. I personally believe that this work can lead us to know God better and to be able to worship Him with more freedom. So with that in mind, Jada, do you have any examples of how we actually love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength?

 

Jada Edwards: Well, if you go through that kind of list and your heart is the core of your emotions and your affections, I'm old enough where we had book covers when I was in school and we drew on book covers, so-and-so loves so-and-so and all that stuff. So, I mean, I'm trying to remind them of what it's like when their heart is affectionate for someone, even if that person does nothing in return. When you have a new son or daughter or niece or nephew or when you're in love, there's so many things we just have.

 

We have affection for celebrities that we've never met. Like we just are heartish toward them. And so thinking about how do I love God with my heart, like my desire, not just "I need something from you." [00:18:34] 

 

And then your soul. Obviously, the spiritual core of who you are and that goes to scripture and being led by the spirit of God. 

 

Your mind. How do I love God with my thoughts? I've asked myself, how much space in my brain does God occupy? How many of my thoughts come back to God? Or is it I'm spending all this time in anxiety, stirring up anxiety, wondering what if and how if and what if that didn't work? And let me think of a plan A, B, C, and D. What's my backup to my backup? Like you can get down a rabbit hole of life and really God gets kind of brought in on the tail end. Like I've hit my wall of anxiety, Oh, God, can you please come in and quiet my heart and please help?

 

I mean, I'd rather try to, as Paul said, to take every thought captive. How do I love God with my mind? What am I letting occupy my mind? You know, I'm really sad because someone hurt me deeply and it consumes me. How could they do that? And who's going to get them back? [00:19:38] And look how it's changed my life. 

 

The hurt is real, but how much time I will occupy my mind is going to show me what I love. Do I love living in that place of hurt? I mean, I say that doesn't sound right. It doesn't sound right to say I love being hurt, but you love what you let your mind occupy. And so, you know, how do I love God with my mind? 

 

And then my strength. I love that because it shows me that to love God is work. You know, it's kind of like I tell people, when you get married, when you say I do at the altar, like when does the work begin? Because now you're saying, Hey, I want to merge two lives and we're going to try to love God while we're doing it. And by the way, we've known each other a few months or a few years and we think we've really figured it out.

 

And so when you say I do, a husband does not suddenly become endowed with amazing leadership insight. A woman does not suddenly become endowed with the ability to help and support and co-partner and all these things. That stuff takes work. To love one another takes work. [00:20:40] 

 

And so I think sometimes as Christians, we think I'm going to become a Christian or have an experience with God and I'm going to suddenly be able to love Him. Like He's going to be my heart's desire. And nothing in scripture says that that's going to be easy. You know, Paul talks about that conflict in Romans 7. The thing I want to do is not what I do. 

 

So when I think about loving God with my strength, it's like how much effort am I putting into it? When do I get off social media, turn off Netflix, commit to saying, I'm not going to go to bed until I spend 10 minutes in scripture or I'm not going to leave my house until I spend 10 minutes in prayer. Like it's work. And when I'm offended, it takes strength to not say something back or to think some thought that's not edifying. So anyway, those are things I think practically when it comes to loving God can be helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: Right. I'm even thinking along those practical lines, what you had mentioned earlier about somebody offering a dance to the Lord. That's I would see the involvement of heart, soul, mind, and strength. [00:21:41] So I see all of this layering on top of each other or the connections. 

 

But why do you think it's important to also learn how God exclusively wired each of us?

 

Jada Edwards: Oh, man, I'm such a big purpose, life-calling person. I just think the more you know about who you are, who God's made you to be, the better you can live out whatever the assignment is He's giving you, the better you can glorify Him, the better you can love Him because you know what your stuff is and where you struggle and where you thrive. You better you can love people. You know what your pain points are, what your buttons are. 

 

I think at the end of Psalm 139, when David is like, "Search me, I want you to search me, Lord and see my anxious thoughts. Is there anything in me that's not like you and like this idea of leave me in this way everlasting?"

 

That Psalm is actually one of my favorite Psalms, speaking of favorite scriptures. Because the whole Psalm is basically David saying, You have searched me, you have known me, you know everything about me. [00:22:42] And you know where I go, when I sit down, when there's thoughts on my mind, you know, before they even form on my lips, all these things. And then he ends by saying, search me, oh God, know my heart, try me, know my thoughts.

 

It's clearly not because God needs to search David so that God can know David. He's already established that He knows him. He's saying, search me so you can show me me. Show me what you see in me. Because I think it's very important for us to say, God, tell me who I am. 

 

My calling and purpose and all that stuff is important to find. But if I don't know how I'm wired, am I fast-paced? Do I tend to be harsh with people? Am I slow-paced? Do I tend to be very analytical? Like all of these things help me know how God might want to fulfill that purpose in me. And so I'm always on mission, personally, alone by myself. I'm like, Okay, now how does this affect your work relationship? How does this affect your marriage or your kids? It applies to everything. [00:23:42] Knowing self and knowing people, I think, is how we love will.

 

Laura Dugger: Jada, you just are natural at weaving in the observation and the interpretation. And now as we zero in on that topic, then let's go to application. Will you elaborate on your process of stacking the personality tests?

 

Jada Edwards: So I just feel like people are complex. I used to love DISC, D-I-S-C, if anyone's not familiar with that. There's lots of free tests out there now because it was really super simple. Everybody was in the Myers-Briggs, but I was like, Listen, 16 combinations is a lot. So I liked DISC because it was like, are you a director, an influencer, steady, compliant? You kind of broke everything up based on your pace, if you're a fast-paced person or a slower person. They're not good or bad. They're just different. Or if you're people-oriented or task-oriented, it was real simple.

 

And then other things came along. StrengthFinders, Spiritual Gifts Test, obviously. Myers-Briggs is cool. There's a new version of that called 16 Personality Types, which gives names to each of those. [00:24:48] The wiring, your hard wiring is your temperament, like how God made you. You love people. You love tasks. You're analytical and precise. You're free-spirited. That's just how God made you. And that DISC kind of stuff in Myers-Briggs. Because you can have different personality types with the same motive. Are you an achiever? Are you perfectionistic? You want harmony. 

 

And so if I'm an achiever, if I'm a quiet, introverted person, my achievement may come out in writing or counseling or something that is very introverted and one on one. If I'm an extroverted person, then I'm probably on stage, on platform. I'm a talker. 

 

So you need like who you are and how you do life, because that speaks to motive, like why you do what you do. And then I love adding in spiritual gifts because then we get to see. Some people with the gift of hospitality are super talkative. They need to be at the door. Some people are introverted, focused workers. They're the ones planning the thing, you know?

 

So it's just so many facets to how we're wired. [00:25:50] And I think the more we know about ourselves and each other, we get to kind of see the fullness of who we are and be amazed that God made us in an instant. It's like, I'm going to give you all these complexities, boom, and there's 200 billion of them. Go. So, yeah, I just love it. People fascinate me.

 

Laura Dugger: I agree. People fascinate me as well. And I enjoy studying this. You brought up spiritual gifts and spiritual gifts are a vital part of knowing ourselves so that we can love others better. So how do you recommend that we first discover and then use and exercise and practice our spiritual gifts to serve and build up the church?

 

Jada Edwards: Oh, I think, you know, in my mind, that's kind of the idea of strategic service, like knowing fully who I am. And even as a church organization, knowing who we are and who we might need, and who might serve well in a particular area. It just helps us to be more intentional. 

 

Anybody can go and pick up trash or set out chairs or be a greeter if they've got a great, inviting personality. But there's going to be some people who are really good at it. [00:27:06] There's going to be some people who pick up chairs and pick up trash just because they love the church. They have a servant heart. They're going to do it. 

 

But that's not going to be sustainable. What's going to be sustainable is the person who's bothered by the trash on the floor, the person who does not understand why the chairs are not in a perfect row. The person who doesn't understand why the person at the door greeting doesn't look happy to be here. Like the person who finds the typo on the website, you know, the person who listens to the music and is like, those chords don't go. 

 

I think the things that disturb us, disrupt us, those are usually places where we can lean into really strategic service. We all have to do everything very often at some point. But long term to know that I'm going to contribute more in this capacity than I am in this capacity really keeps my eyes open for what God might do. 

 

And so you can have a servant's heart and say yes to whatever the need is but also have intentional eyes for what God might open opportunities that really suit you. And so I think it's always important to try to be as strategic as we can with our service. [00:28:08] 

 

Laura Dugger: I've heard this taught both ways, so I would really value your insight. Do you believe that God gifts us with these spiritual gifts while we're still in our mother's womb or are spiritual gifts given to us at salvation, at that moment when we get a new heart and become a follower of Jesus?

 

Jada Edwards: You know, that's a good question. Scripture would make me think that the gifts, spiritual gifts are gifts of the spirit and that if you have not received the Holy Spirit as a believer, then even though God knows what your gift will be, they may not be fully endowed to you or, you know, be able to be fully realized. But then there's this other side that our lives are purpose-driven, even before our spiritual gifting is revealed. Because Paul says in Galatians 5, "I was called and set apart from a mother's womb."  David says, "You formed me in my inward parts." Like there is this intentionality even in the womb. [00:29:12] 

 

And so I would probably have to process that more. But if I was going to be nuanced about it, I would probably say that calling, purpose, intentionality, God gives us in the womb at conception and that He obviously knows our spiritual gifts. But I think that we only fully realize them, able to receive them once we become believers. I can't reconcile not being a Christian and being able to use your spiritual gifts. I can't reconcile that. And so I think they're there waiting for us to choose Jesus. 

 

Calling, purpose, yes. Because a lot of people are walking in some version of their calling and their purpose before they become Christian. Then come Christian, they're like, oh, this is what God meant. Paul, he was still teaching. He was still passionate. He was still preaching, but different agenda. You know, so you see in the life of Paul, there was still activity in a life dedicated to what he was good at. It's just that when he found Jesus, that same gifting, that same wiring just became used for the Lord. [00:30:18] And then he was, I believe, given the spiritual gifts that come with salvation.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great example, because then you see very different fruit produced from the gifts prior to encountering Jesus and after.

 

Jada Edwards: Same personality. That's why I try to tell people there's no right or wrong personality. Paul didn't become quiet. He didn't become shy. He didn't become less passionate. He was still pretty direct. He still said what he wanted to say and how he felt like. You know, he was still a zealot. It was just that it was for the Lord. 

 

And so his life is a reference point for me often to encourage people that whatever your personality and how you're wired and what you're good at, man, God gives you that at birth. And using it in spiritual divine ways with certain endowments, certain portions of faith or hospitality or pastor and a shepherd, those portions you get as a believer and then they partner with how he's already wired you and then you see like that divine calling. [00:31:17] 

 

Laura Dugger: There is an exciting project taking place behind the scenes right now, and I would love to invite you to participate. I will give you more details as I'm able, but for now, here's my request. Will you email me your personal story of a specific way God has clearly shown up in your life? Big or small, I want to hear an account of the way He made Himself known to you and maybe received credit for an answered prayer or a way He worked out a situation in a miraculous way or how He displayed his power in your life. There's no limit to the type of story to submit as long as it's true. So please email me your story at this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. I can't wait to read your story. Thanks for sharing. 

 

I've also heard you share before that it's our work to have a PhD knowledge of ourselves, and that's for everyone's benefit. But then to realistically expect others to have more of an elementary knowledge of us. But hopefully conversations like this can spur us on to more thoughtfully observe and learn more about others so that our degree in others becomes more advanced in our knowledge of them. [00:32:38] 

 

So as we change gears now from knowing ourselves, how do you think we can grow in knowing others well?

 

Jada Edwards: I would say a lot of times with the same tools that I apply to the study of scripture and the same tools I apply to learning myself. So personality and strength and all that kind of stuff is so important because the more I know myself and I become aware of other personality types or other strengths or other spiritual giftings, then the more I'm aware and I'm able to see that in other people. 

 

And so when I do spiritual gifts or when I've done my spiritual gifts, I don't just look at my teaching, leadership, whatever it is. I want to learn all of them.  So when I see someone I go, "I think you have a spiritual gift of hospitality, you know? And so I want to learn those things because they prepare me to be able to speak into the lives of others and learn them and appreciate them. [00:33:35] 

 

And when I compare it to the study of scripture, I say, you know, observation, because even with all the tests and all the assessment in the world, it still does not tell you a person's life experience. I could take a person with the exact same Myers-Briggs, the exact same personality, the exact same strengths or whatever they're using, and they're still not going to be the exact same person because their households were different, their childhood experiences were different, the value. I mean, there's so much nuance to our actual life experiences, that assessments and those foundational things about how we're wired, they're just the beginning. 

 

It's as valuable to take those tools and take scripture that we apply to ourselves and ask God to give us discernment into others. Because I think Philippians 2:3 says, You put others' interests over your own. Well, I can't if I don't know their interests. If I keep projecting my interest to your interest, then I can't love you well.

 

And I'm just mad that you didn't remember my birthday. And I'm not thinking about the fact that I didn't grow up in a household that cared if it was my birthday. [00:34:38] You know, I'm just thinking about my life. So those little things, they start to become real chasms, you know, in our ability to love well, when we can't get outside of ourselves to really educate ourselves on other people.

 

Laura Dugger: I love one of your previous quotes where you say, "You can't love well if you don't love close." So how can we love close in order to love well?

 

Jada Edwards: You know, nobody wants to love close unless we've got some kind of warranty or guarantee that this is going to go well. Because it's like, What God? Yeah, it's risk. It's so much risk. Every time, I really have to do a couple of things. That's one. Always choose transparency and authenticity. Like that is hard for me. I am a guarded person. I'm a focused person. I don't tend to naturally gravitate toward transparency. 

 

God has had to stretch that muscle in me so that I can embrace my humanity and my dependence and who I am as a creature. That I don't have all together. [00:35:51] And so asking Him, Okay, God, how do you want me to be authentic in this moment, be transparent in this moment? Someone's going through something. Do I give them a scripture or should I just tell them  "I've been through that. And let me tell you my story a little bit"? 

 

And then also asking God when I should be vulnerable, because you can be transparent and authentic and I can tell you, "Hey, marriage is hard. My marriage is not perfect. A, B, and C." Being vulnerable, saying, "Here's what we're going through right now." Well, that's not for everybody. But I still have to have my heart open to how God wants me to do that, because that's how I love close. I mean, most of the time we think closeness comes... We want close love to come because we give up very little and the other person gives up a lot. And that's why we get married. Someone's made me happy. You know, even if we love Jesus, we're naturally self-centered people. So we're like, Oh, this person made me happy or I can see our life together. 

 

And loving close really is I take the risk because I know God is my advocate.[00:36:54] God loves me thoroughly and completely and unconditionally. I don't want you to hurt me. But if you hurt me and disappoint me, God's love... He's got me and I can be okay.

 

My image for that... I think I talk about it on my podcast. It's the book I'm working on. My image for that that always comes to mind is the Garden of Gethsemane. That Jesus brought in three men that He knew were going to fail into His most vulnerable moment. And they fall asleep. He doesn't unfriend them. He didn't cancel them. He gives them another chance and even a third chance. And they never get it. They never are able to stay awake with Him during his toughest time.

 

And so when I see that and think about that story, I'm reminded that community and loving close and loving in a real vulnerable way is such a part of how we're wired. That even when people fail us, God does not excuse us from being transparent and vulnerable. He's like, yeah, disappointment is a part of this world. And guess what? You disappoint people, too, Jada. So it's part of this world. [00:37:58] 

 

But there's going to be some moments that come because you're vulnerable, willing to take a risk from really meaningful relationships that you cannot have if you try to self-protect the whole way. It's a risk. You're probably going to get hurt. Someone's going to hurt you, not say the right thing or betray your trust. And they didn't mean to. They just were talking too much or whatever. And you got to decide, do I want to cut that off and isolate another person from my life or, God, are you asking me to leave? That's what it means to live close. It's hard.

 

Laura Dugger: Yeah. Is there any other specific scripture that informs your desire to live in biblical community?

 

Jada Edwards: Well, I just think about... I mean, the way Jesus modeled it with the disciples is so significant. I think for the man that lowered... the man who could not walk down on, who was on the cot and they lowered him into the roof, I think about what does it mean to have friends that have walked with you long enough that know that here's an opportunity for your life to be changed. [00:39:05] We're going to do whatever it takes. We're going to mow you through the roof. Thing is sold out. We're going to make sure you get there. He could not have done that on his own. He needed a community of people to help him do that.

 

I think whether it's Old Testament, you know, Jonathan and David, and you see those things in a friendship type community. But even David and Nathan, that Nathan wasn't David's friend, but he showed him the error of his ways after he had an affair with Bathsheba and had her husband killed. That's still community that you need. Everybody's not going to be a friend, but there's so many ways that we can let people in. Because David could have said, "Hey, Nathan, you know what? We're not even that close. You don't have any right to bring this to me." 

 

But his heart was open because he knew he had dishonored the Lord. And so we can find that the way we're wired to live in a community, it shows up in so many ways. But when I think about it, the bottom line is it's risky. That means I got to keep being willing to trust God to heal me, give me wisdom so that I don't shut people off when I get disappointed. [00:40:08] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you bring that scripture to life about the four friends lowering the man who cannot walk because it makes me think of Psalm 16. The first part of verse eight says, "I have set the Lord continually before me." And so that's part of maybe our responsibility or our part or what we can be doing. But also then in biblical community, those friends, they were crucial to be the ones to set this person before the Lord. And I think that's something we can do for our friends.

 

Jada Edwards: And I think God is so faithful to bring us people. Sometimes they're what I call guides or like God friends, like that Nathan and David or Paul and Barnabas. They're not many people you go to dinner with and chit-chat with. But they're people who are intentional. They care about God's purpose in your life and things like that. And sometimes He just brings us girlfriends.

 

You know, I think so often about Mary and Elizabeth. Like only God would have her cousin, who should have been barren, also be pregnant with John the Baptist. And now they have this shared experience. [00:41:16] They're both in this place like no one else can understand. No one else can understand. And God gives them each other.

 

So much so that it's just, you know, their babies leaped for joy in their womb when they connected. I just think God is so faithful that even if you think, "No one gets me. I don't do friendships. I can't find a real closeness with someone," He will do that. He will find you a Mary or an Elizabeth that is like you cannot believe how much you all have in common. I just think He's gracious like that to give us things that give us ways to lead into community. But we have to be asking all the time, "God, where do I... is this a friendship that I need to pursue? And yes, risky, back to my word.

 

Laura Dugger: It's risky, but... oh, that is so good, Jada. Because it's true. He is so faithful. And when He gives... We see this modeled in scripture. When He gives people a calling, He brings alongside an encourager or a friend. [00:42:15] So Barnabas to Paul, or like you said, Elizabeth to Mary. I love that. 

 

Let's combine all of these pieces that we've chatted about so far. We've talked about knowing God, knowing ourselves and knowing others to love all better. So I just want to hear a few more of your best practices. So as you've grown to know yourself better, what is some wise stewardship that's resulted?

 

Jada Edwards: That's a very good question. Let's see, if I know myself better, I think I'm a better steward of my time. I am kind of an achiever, extroverted. I want everything to be great all the time. And so my tendency is to say yes when I have a certainty that I'm going to be successful. I know I can do that well, I'm going to say good.

 

But as I've gotten to know myself, I know that God grows my faith when I have opportunities where I'm kind of out of my comfort zone. Like I really need to lean on Him because this is not something I've done 20 times. [00:43:21] And so I'm starting to see Him and trust me with certain things like that. And I'm like, now, why God am I doing this? And He's like, yeah, because you trust me and I want you to. 

 

So there's a discomfort that I'm becoming comfortable with saying, Okay, God is going to do this. I have tried to be a better steward of my parenting. My son is very compassionate and emotive and relational and caring and I tend to be less compassionate and more task driven and like that. And so that has challenged me as I've gotten to know myself and thought about who my son is and how he's wired. Like that gap between our relationship and why I get frustrated because he can't get over it when he's having a sad day. And God's like, You need to chill. You're going to make him think this is not okay. So he is. 

 

And so there's been moments where it's easier to hang out with my daughter because we're wired a little more similarly. But I have to lean in and steward my time with them differently. [00:44:22] 

 

It seems so small, but it used to be convenient for me to put them to bed together. In the last year, it just takes a little longer to get them to bed, but I put her to bed first because it literally takes her five minutes. She don't need a story or something. She's like, good night. My son is like, I want a song. I want a story. He's probably going to tell me something about his day and I have to dig in and go, He needs these five to ten minutes to just kind of talk without Chloe interrupting, without me being in a hurry. And so that little thing has changed our bedtime routine, but it has enriched our relationship. 

 

So as I learn about myself and God shows me about others, whether they're family or friends or people in ministry, He gives me small ways to make adjustments that are probably meaningful to them. I don't think He's saying overhaul your whole life. He's just like, just be discerning, be interested in others, be interested in Me, and I'll show you baby steps that you can just make adjustments along the way and just be better every day. [00:45:22] 

 

Laura Dugger: Just to elaborate on that a little bit further, are there any other systems or habits that you've put in place that help you choose and discern where to invest and manage your time and energy?

 

Jada Edwards: I don't know if it's systems. I kind of have a grid that I think through. I'm like, Okay, how does this affect our family routine? How does this affect my commitment at our local church? I teach Bible study there on Wednesdays. So I kind of just have been more intentional about my priorities and thinking through all those things. And does this line up with what I believe God's calling us to do this season? 

 

So I think taking time to slow down and ask those questions. But the trick is I can't answer those questions unless I've done the work on really seeking the Lord on what our family's priorities are, what He's called me to do. So there's a whole ongoing investigation with God. What are you trying to do in my life? Because then those things drive my priorities. [00:46:22] 

 

You know, I've been intentional about Sabbath. I feel much more confident in what I say yes to and no to. I think it's given me wisdom how to navigate relationships. You know, I'm not trying to worry if everybody's okay. I mean, I do sometimes, but not in an unhealthy way. So it's just been a lot of little things, I think, you know, God is continuing to grow me.

 

Laura Dugger: There's so much practical wisdom packed into that answer. I love it. Jada, you've been such an encouragement. What's the best place that we can follow up and find you online?

 

Jada Edwards: I love Instagram. I'm getting better at Facebook. I have a Facebook page, simply Jada Edwards, easy to find. Instagram, I think, is I am Jada Edwards. It's pretty easy to find. And we have some podcasts as well. And you can find those on your platform. Just Jada Edwards. So simple. Or you can go through the website, though. And the website has many books and Bible studies and all that kind of stuff on there. [00:47:24] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. You may already be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. So Jada is my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Jada Edwards: Well, my savvy sauce is probably based on everything we've said. Know God, know yourself, know people and you'll be able to love well.

 

Laura Dugger: Love it. It has been such a joy to get to chat with you and learn more about each of those topics. And it's such an important conversation because that knowing leads to loving and growing in love is always a worthy pursuit. So, Jada, you are just captivating to listen to. And I delight in the way that God wired you which came out in this conversation. So thank you for seeking to live faithfully for Him and thank you for being my guest today. [00:48:30] 

 

Jada Edwards: Thank you so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:49:31] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:50:30] 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:51:34] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo

200. Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Galatians 6:7 (NIV) Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. When you reflect back on parenting, what are you most pleased with, regarding ways you and your husband chose to invest in your family?
2. What are a few of your favorite ways to plant and cultivate seeds of faith in everyday family life with your own kids?
3. How can we disciple our children to be a friend to God?

 

Courtney DeFeo wants to be a resource and help to YOU, more than she want you to be impressed by HER. She believes God gifted all of us with unique talents and passions. She's had fun discovering a few of hers and using them to support her fellow moms, parents and women in this journey called life. What’s the point of great ideas if we just hoard them to ourselves? However, it’s important to note – she in a “Season of Rest” right now! Find out more on her website: www.courtneydefeo.com.

 

Other Episodes Mentioned:

Finding Your Purpose as a Mom with Courtney DeFeo

*Special Patreon Release* Ideas for Spreading Generosity with Courtney DeFeo

Self-Care in Motherhood with Karen Stubbs

Life is Better with the Holy Spirit with Jeannie Cunnion

Special Patreon Re-Release: Patreon 2 Discipline Strategies and Managing Mom Guilt with Karen Stubbs, Founder of Birds on a Wire

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Our sponsors for today's episode are Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check out solidrockchristianacademy.org for their alternative schooling option with a solid biblical view. Visit cfeastpeoria.com for available employment opportunities or to place your catering order. 

 

Courtney DeFeo is my returning guest today, and she is an engaging storyteller and resource genius, so she's going to share a lot of encouragement and direction with us, specifically as it relates to parenting in partnership with Jesus, so that we can provide rich soil in our children's lives and hopefully help them cultivate seeds of faith, which will provide blessings and benefits now and forevermore. 

 

Here's our chat. [00:01:19] 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Courtney.

 

Courtney DeFeo: Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be back.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, the first time you were on The Savvy Sauce was over four years ago, I believe, so I can't wait to hear an update. What phase of life are you and your family currently in?

 

Courtney DeFeo: I can't believe it, but we're in the teen age, which is just crazy. So they're 13 and 16, 8th grade and 10th grade. Ron is still working at American. We're here in Texas. We'll get some time on the end. I'll tell you about my December, but we had a cancer journey with Ron this Christmas.

 

So a lot of what you'll hear me talk about today comes from a very surreal point of perspective. It's like, "Nothing matters. My husband's alive." And it makes all the things seem very trivial when you go through that. So he's happy to report he's doing great. 

 

They got a pancreatic cancer. They found it early. They got everything out via a surgery, which is just an absolute miracle with this kind of cancer. And he doesn't need radiation or chemo. [00:02:19] So we are floating on a miracle and really thankful to have our main guy around for many years. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. I have goosebumps everywhere hearing that. Goodness.

 

Courtney DeFeo: I know. I say it real flippantly, but I think we're going to probably do an Instagram Live or Facebook to tell the whole story because it's truly like God's hand through the whole thing. And so there's a lot of details. I hate to lob that on people, but it's real. Our new lens of life is coming through that. And so I wanted y'all to... at least I have a heads up as I talk through some of these things.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, certainly keep us posted so that we can all tune into that. Now I'm especially excited to get your perspective. So when you and Ron do reflect back on parenting, what are you most pleased with regarding ways that you two chose to invest in your family?

 

Courtney DeFeo: Yeah. I think across the board, the time spent. And I don't think that's in a way of like quantity of time. I think it's quality of time. [00:03:21] We have really put them as a huge priority in both of our lives. And it goes consistently. Because it just flies. Everybody says that, but it's like here we are. My oldest is driving, and she's not home very often. She's gone all the time.

 

And so I just look back and think that those moments in the carpool and at the playground and at their field trips, you just can't get them back. And so we're so thankful that we've had time with them.

 

Laura Dugger: And is there anything that especially stands out? Was it more of those little moments that you're talking about or travels or the big celebrations? What comes to mind?

 

Courtney DeFeo: I think we do it differently. I do stay home for the majority of my day, so I'm able to be at all the things. And I do want to make a caveat up front that I heard one of my best friends, Sissy Goff, is a counselor. And she said that one of the danger traps that we're falling into as parents is making them our entire world. And so I do want to just set that stage that we are not obsessed with them to the point that they are our entire lives. [00:04:22] We still have our marriage. We still have our own walk of faith. I still have speaking and teaching and all the things that I do. But they're a pretty significant part, and we do intentionally spend a lot of time with them.

 

So I think that we can, as a culture, get kind of pulled into obsession where they're the only thing that matters. And then we can also swing too hard to the other way and neglect them. So I think wherever you fall on that tension is just knowing it and going, Oh, I'm creeping into helicopter mom or I'm creeping into not paying attention to them at all. And so it's different for each person. 

 

But to answer your question, I'll use Ron. So Ron is an executive in America and he works a lot. And so he early on in our parenting read that book by Andy Stanley, Choose to Cheat, and was like, "You're going to have to cheat something. You can't do everything." So he will, when he's able, choose to cheat work or a meeting.

 

And as people know that... and sometimes he can't leave. But he has found that every morning he can take them to school. And so he has consistently over time taken them to school most days of the week, which I love. I'm like, yay, I'll stay in my pajamas. [00:05:22] But that's his window of like they listen to music, he catches up with them, they laugh.

 

And it's not as much time as I spend with them, but I can guarantee you looking back, they'll be like, My dad was there every morning. And he certainly puts the phone down and talks to them in the evening as well. But I'm so proud of him for that, because with his job, there's not a whole lot of like, Oh, I can just walk away for four hours and kind of sit at the field trip. There's not a lot of that. But when he's able, he is so there and so attuned to them and making little memories. 

 

But as a family, we do like to travel. Obviously, with American, we've got some perks. And I like to be the house as well. We'll talk about that more in the teen years. But I like to have their friends over as often as possible. You learn a lot when you're in the house where people come. So mine is typically like saying yes to the sleepovers and the parties and the things so I can just keep an eye on who's in their life and pour into their friends as well. So that's a lot of material, but that's a few ways.

 

Laura Dugger: Yeah, that is so good. And I'll link back to our previous episodes together. [00:06:23] But in those we focused more on younger children. So today I want to switch our attention to those tween and teen years. You always have fabulous and fun ideas for planting and cultivating seeds of faith in our children. So what are a few of your favorite ways you do this in everyday life with your own girls?

 

Courtney DeFeo: Another caveat I want to say upfront is that Jeannie Cunnion has said this before, but we are significant as parents. We're not sovereign and God is sovereign. And so I will say a lot of things that we did or I did, but with the hope that you guys understand like God has moved through this whole thing. And I can't take credit for all the good. I certainly don't want to take credit for all the bad. 

 

So it's like this constant thing where I want to encourage parents to be active and be intentional, but not put the entire responsibility on yourself. God redirected some things I thought were the path and they weren't the path for my kid. It's a balance. It's a balance. There's tension in all of it. [00:07:21] 

 

So for middle school and high school, I have been very focused on people and places. So who is in their life and then where they are going to specifically experience God? That may look different for every family. They happen to be at a Christian school, but I don't think that's a mandate, you know? But I didn't want them there unless the faith was real. If it was a Christian school by label and people were not walking it out, we would not be there anymore. That is one place.

 

Camps. I know people have different feelings about overnight camps. But for one of my children, she's been significantly impacted by her faith in a specific overnight camp. And so we make time and set aside money to make sure she's in that environment. 

 

Church on Wednesday. I know different, like the Northeast people are like, wouldn't that be nice to have a youth group program? But for here in Texas, where it's like Bible belt. We have let them try different ones and not... And for a while I wanted to make them go to our church, but they, for a season, went to other churches where their friends were. And they were just getting around people that would say the same thing that I would and a voice that they care about. [00:08:25] 

 

So there's a phase where they just roll their eyes at you, you know, but then if you dial in a mentor or small group leader or a pastor that would say the same things you want to say, but they receive it differently because it's someone cool, someone younger. And so you'll really see that shift happening in middle school and high school where they start paying attention to other voices more than yours, whether it's their friends or other leaders. It's not to say they're not listening. They just may not go like, Mom, that was a good word. Thanks for sharing that. 

 

So people and places. And I keep quoting people because I don't want to take their material, but Andy Stanley and Sandra had a big impact on me and their parenting ways. But they would say how to dial influences and dial them out. So by having kids in my car or having kids over at the house, I can see which friends need to come over for more often because my kids are completely themselves or they're comfortable. [00:09:20] And I can see which ones are going to kind of draw them in a direction I don't want them to go. 

 

So it's not completely micromanaging that, but being aware of which people you want to make real easy. Like, "Hey, let's invite someone over. Hey, let's go to coffee with her mom." And making those opportunities easily available for people that just bring out the best in them. 

 

High school, I'm learning painfully to let go and watching how God works. You know, like I wanted Ella to be on the tennis team, she didn't love it and she decided to get a job. She has learned more and grown more through that job than she ever would have been tennis for her particularly. 

 

And so kind of watching them fail, so to speak, or do things not according to your plan, going like, "God, you know all the things that she needs to learn as a high schooler and you're going to put her in places that I didn't see coming.

 

So I am struggling, if I'm honest. It's a lot of them being away and I like to be real involved. So I'm forcing myself to ungrip and slowly loosen that grip so that when they leave for college, I'm not in a coma crying on the floor. [00:10:25] So there's a few ideas for those years.

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you articulate those ideas. It kind of makes me hungry for more. If you expand it beyond those tween and teen years, are there any things that stand out specifically when they were younger that you're so grateful you did to cultivate their faith life?

 

Courtney DeFeo: Yeah. Overall looking back and so glad we invested I think baby's years. I'm so glad I held them. I think we can get so wrapped up into schedules and doing it right. That's like, don't forget you have a newborn for just a little season. Hold them, not all the time, but snuggle them, enjoy them. 

 

On the downside, I shopped too much. I was all into the matching smocking outfits, you know? And looking back, I'm like, "Man, I spent a whole lot of time making sure they looked perfect. And I don't know if that is probably worth." I've been doing every now and then, but I remember being obsessed for a season to make sure every... and I have girls, so it was like every season they matched and had the perfect dress. That was a probably great time spent.

 

I also am glad we were in small groups. [00:11:25] We had a consistent small group through church that just put me around other believers, other moms and dads together that were kind of thinking ahead and thinking how we were going to do this in a way that honors God. And that constant "just work on your own faith and in your own marriage" really set up perspective to not just drown when it's physically draining and just be like, Okay, I need to pull away for a minute, pull up, and see that life is bigger and more complicated than this one season of whatever the formula thing was or whatever the sleeping issue was. And so our small groups have the same baby years were huge.  

 

Toddlers in preschool. I am so thankful we played and we focus on discipline. And you will see that with many people that didn't really want to discipline their kids. And then they get to like age eight, nine, they're like, Oh my gosh, we probably should have told them some boundaries. 

 

So I would say toddlers just is not fun, but just stay consistent at teaching them that you are the mom and dad. They can't run in the street. They can't throw Cheerios at people. [00:12:26] Like those things will play out that they will respect your voice and know that you mean it later when you can't physically pick them up and put them in timeout when they're in elementary school. 

 

Then lastly, at elementary, the carpool was just huge to consistently be there, field trips. And not all of them. I don't want to put this guilt on someone that's working full-time. It's not really the quantity. Like you don't have to go to everyone. But show up in a couple of their environments so they can see that you're present. 

 

And then play dates. Just really getting them around other kids and teaching them how to share. The creativity that comes from playing is just massive for them. 

 

So those are a few time investments. And then if you want to, we can get into some of the faith aspects for sure.

 

Laura Dugger: Yeah, absolutely. Feel free to elaborate on the faith part and also how you are making sure that your home is one that's welcoming for them to now bring their friends. Are there any practical things you do? 

 

Courtney DeFeo: Yeah. I'll touch on that one first. [00:13:27] I think that even when we were shopping for a home, we had that lens in mind. Like what did the backyard look like? You know, can we get a trampoline? Like are there things that they can do here? And I don't think it has to do with money. It's just like, is the home set up a way? And then it's not like... I remember some of my friends' homes growing up were so perfect. We literally couldn't walk in certain rooms so they had to vacuum it.

 

So we're pretty like go with the flow. Like you'll look in my kitchen and there's hoverboard tracks all over the cabinets at the base because I let them ride hoverboards to the house. They learned to skate in here. I guess just caution people not to make your home so perfect that kids don't... And you don't want to have respect. They can't just destroy the place and spray paint the dining room, but they can feel comfortable to be kids. 

 

My mom when I was growing up would put a cereal box... Like if you came over lunch, you said, I really like Lucky Charms, she would have Lucky Charms in the top of the pantry every time. So our pantry had literally like 25 boxes of cereal.

 

I'd say that practically because there was something about my mom's environment and my dad, but my mom specifically was like, You are welcome here. [00:14:32] You're not a bother. You belong in our home. We're excited to see you. And that does wonders. There's a lot of kids that don't feel that and your home may be their only place to feel seen.

 

So it's some of the practical stuff, but it's also just like knowing what's going on with them, checking in with them, greeting their friends and the place that they just want to keep coming back because they feel, you know, God's love through you. So lots of fun. 

 

And I try to say yes as often as I can on the sleepovers and the annoying things with the perspective that like, it will not always be this way. [00:15:04] Like it will not always be a hundred sleeping bags and chips everywhere and all that. So yeah, there's a couple examples there. 

 

Then on the faith things, I mean, this is such a hard question because every kid is different and some kids don't really grasp a hold of the gospel until they're in college. Some kids are early age. So anything you can do to keep that conversation going, not in a mandate, you're not... you know, you don't want them to feel like, You're not enough. You're not living up to this spiritual, you know, angel that I spoke to, but that it's a real thing and it's not always easy.

 

Obvious statement is that we need to live it out. That we need to be talking about our own journey. We need to pray. We need to be in the word. And I haven't always done that amazing. But I will say, with this cancer journey, they have seen our faith come to life. It's like we believe what we say we believe and we are going to... Ron has been on his knees on a pillow every day since he got that diagnosis, praying and thanking God for what He did. 

 

They've seen our friends at our community of faith show up and lift us up in a way that we all felt this surreal kind of peace. [00:16:06] It's like, you can't just make that up and snap it into place. It's as years of investing in what we believe in that really came to light. 

 

Also, and this was all my first book, I probably talked about it in your first podcast, but I'm really big into them experiencing faith over hearing constant lectures. So if you say, "Hey, generosity is a huge piece of who we are as a family, is what God thinks is a great idea, how do we do that regularly as a family and not just talk about it? Because words are good, but it's really when you see the action of faith play out that that sinks something in them. And I know it was true of me growing up. My mom just lived out service and loving others in a way that it was real, and you saw it.

 

Okay, next one. I know these are all over the place but... But I do think, like I said, now in these high school years, like do I truly trust that God has the best plan for Ella. And now that she's in high school, it is hard. 

 

For example, I want her to go to Auburn. She may not go to Auburn. But I really want her to. [00:17:08] So I'm going to show her Auburn, but ultimately say to her, "I trust that God's going to guide you to the school and if you should go to college and which one. And really live that and not try to manipulate her entire life. It's easy for us to do it because we had certain dreams of what these little girls may grow up to be, but consistently putting them around youth groups that make God seem fun and where they can get a message.

 

And also reading your own experience. Like if I get an email from someone that something impacted them, or I prayed for them, I will read to them like, Hey, this is what happened while y'all were at school today. This is how God showed up and I can't believe it. So kind of a constant awe of what He's doing.

 

[00:17:46] <music>

 

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[00:20:16] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: You partnered with ParentQ to release this unique study and journal for moms and tween daughters, so will you just tell us more about that?

 

Courtney DeFeo: Yeah. I think I was getting into... there's a real shift, and you know this from your girls, it's all so cute. Like kindergarten, first grade, second grade, it's rainbows, unicorns, make-believe, it's all so sweet. And then all of a sudden around third grade, third, fourth, these girls and boys switch to be like, Oh my gosh, those other friendships are hard, my body's changing. Like it's like they wake up into a new level of life that is hard to watch because you're like, Oh my goodness, they never doubted their confidence, and now all of a sudden they don't like their legs or whatever the thing is.

 

And so I was looking around for a study that I could do with moms and daughters because I do feel like in that third, fourth, sixth age range, they're still thinking we're pretty cool and they're not embarrassed to be with us. Around middle school, that shifts and they're like, "Please don't come in. Don't show up, I don't want you around." And then I'm happy to say they come back around. Ella wants me around here in 10th grade. [00:21:17] 

 

But all that to say, I wanted something for moms and daughters to talk about, not just Jesus, because of course we want to walk them through the Bible, but really the topics that were consistently hard and hurting most of these girls. And I was watching it come to life with my kids. 

 

So I knew it was supposed to be a study. I knew it was supposed to be for tween girls, about 9 to 13. And God just kept pressing on me certain topics. I also knew I wasn't capable of doing the whole thing. So I called my buddies at Orange that does curriculum in churches all over the world and just said, "Hey, if I write most of it, will you help me design it? Will you help make it better?" And they said, yes. 

 

And so we put out Treasured a few years ago. It's got six different sessions and there's a journal and a study. But the first one's about identity. The question is, what's unique about me? The second one is body. What's happening to my body? The third one is how do I handle my emotions? Obviously emotions. Then friends, then technology, and then faith.

 

So I felt like if we did those six really well, we would really touch on a majority of what is consuming their hearts and minds during that time. [00:22:22] It really set them on a trajectory where they might not get it and succeed at it, but they would have some seeds planted that when it's middle school and when it's high school, they can go back to, oh my gosh, what did we... you know, Lord put my heart back on what we already knew about friendships. And this is feeling weird again. How should I kind of anchor my thoughts on that topic around what Jesus might say?

 

There's a DVD and... I don't know who has DVDs anymore. But there's a digital version, we'll say, of the study that you can do in small groups of moms and daughters. And then there's a journal that comes alongside. And it's really designed for moms and daughters to do together in their own quiet space.

 

Laura Dugger: So the journal portion, can you share a little bit more what that's about?

 

Courtney DeFeo: Yeah, for sure. I'm a visual learner and I know my kids have very little attention span. So there's a lot of drawing and interacting with your mom in there. So for example, I'm looking at the identity one right now. It takes them through an exercise where they fill out a thumbprint. [00:23:24] Like what is unique about me? And you draw in there. And it's the chance for a mom to say like, I see unique things about you. You're different than your friend. Your friend isn't better than you. You're just different because I see the way God did this. 

 

Also, I've had a lot of moms reach out and be like, oh my gosh, did I need this? So it's an exercise of a daughter reaching into some of these truths, but then a mom right alongside her either doing the crafty activity or reading through some of the questions.

 

My hope at the bottom of my heart is that people have conversations that this tool just kind of spurred up and set them in their laps versus like, Hey, we're going to learn from Courtney and Orange and just read out this stuff and memorize it. It's more of like just stirring the pot. Like as we think about body, there's a lot of things that come with body. We don't have the sex talk, but it tees you up to talk about some of these things that would naturally not come up otherwise. 

 

So I really prayed when we were making it that these conversations would just become so normal that let's say emotions, when a daughter did struggle with her emotions, it's not the first time she's thought of it and it's not awkward for her to come back to her mom and say, "I feel so jealous" or "I feel so teary all the time" or "I'm angry. [00:24:35] Like what do I do with that?" And they can kind of circle back and talk through some things that, you know, this started with them.

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you had mentioned previously that you love that experiential learning. So can you just give one example of an activity that's involved in this study?

 

Courtney DeFeo: For sure. Let me pull it through. It's been so long. I picked it up this morning and I thought, "Man, I don't even know if I went through this in detail with a Larson. So I needed to circle back to it. But a couple of things it has in there.

 

I had a 12-year-old or 11-year-old that I trusted write a devotion and they can read out from another girl's words, which I think is super important. One of the things with emotions, I feel like the main idea is that you actually can be in control of your emotions more than you think. So it's not like total control, but it's like you don't want them in the driver's seat. Like if you have a car, most of the tween world is that the emotions are just going so high because your body is changing. Your physical body is changing and your emotional interior is changing. So when they feel totally out of control and they just want to go punch something, okay, that's real. [00:25:39] So let's start naming it. Like, were you angry? Were you hungry? 

 

And then it gives them an activity on how to work through that and how to gauge on their temperature. Okay, what are we feeling? First, it tells them, "First stop. What are you feeling? And then you draw it. Now breathe.

 

Next one is name it. What are you feeling? Are you frustrated, overwhelmed, scared? Then refocus. What are things that can help you reset? Like maybe for one kid it's a bath, one kid, let's say, turning on some praise music. And just equipping them for things I think I'm working on as a 46-year-old. Like how do I not let emotion in the heat of the thing dictate my whole day? How can I kind of reset? 

 

And kind of pull up and look at it. Because when they're little, it's mainly sadness and anger that come bursting out, but we know that there's more to that. And if they act only when they're hangry, life isn't going to be good. I mean, it's like, hold on, get a snack, take a little breather, and let's come back at that. 

 

You know, you probably had moments as an adult where you send an email in the heat of a moment when someone's hurt your kid and you're like, "Oh my gosh, could I get that email back? [00:26:44] Because I shouldn't have said that when I was so angry and hurt, you know, that kind of thing. So lots of practical things in there. 

 

Then on the study there's videos from younger girls. It's not me. I try to find someone cool and hip and 20-something to walk through a really quick video. And there's always a visual. So they may be holding up in the one session they talk about clothing yourself. So the girl has on different hats and clothes. 

 

I love the videos. Even if you don't want to do a small group, they're digitally available and you can just pull them up. And there's questions that come with it. Because I want them to hear from someone in a real short, kind of a short message, but kind of reframes their thinking.

 

And then the journal is more activities. Let's draw this. There's verses. There is coloring versus all kinds of cutie things in here. 

 

Orange did a great job. I kind of set them up and then they made it really awesome. So I can say it's awesome.

 

Laura Dugger: That is fantastic. Even when it comes to podcasts, I know I love sharing podcast episodes with our daughters. And I wonder if other moms are even doing the same thing right now with theirs. [00:27:47] So it's helpful to kind of go further into those topics to see if Treasured study is a good next step for them.

 

Courtney DeFeo: I do think the questions are a key piece because.my natural bet... It's funny that I'm passionate about experiences over lecture, but my natural bet is to sit them down and tell them some wisdom, you know? And I have to constantly pry my fingers off of that too and say like, They are wiser than you think. Like when you ask them a question, what comes out of their mouth will completely surprise you. Like they have thought through a lot of the things you don't think they have. 

 

So I even think at dinnertime with your whole family or even these bedtime things, even if you pick it up and just pick one question, it can start conversations where you'll see their heart and go, Man, they're really struggling with this or man, they really have a good grip on what... I mean, they can see right through it. Little girls are just stinking smart. They can see through all the stuff with friendships around the lunch table and they can see why it doesn't feel good. 

 

And they can even have moments where you could say like, Hey, we're in this area of friendship. [00:28:48] Do you think you could be a better friend? So it's not just all the other kids, you know, hurting me. It's like, where could I say, Oh, I could be a better encourager. Oh, I could include people more often. 

 

And so I think it kind of takes the... you know, when they're in trouble, we sit them down and tell them, here's the five things you did wrong and they're not learning because they're just embarrassed. And so I think these non-threatening moments with our daughters really help them open up in a way that we can affirm who they are, step into some hurts, and pray about it together. I just love it. 

 

I didn't always do it well. I have to keep saying that. Like my kids would say, yeah, she hadn't put us to bed in a couple of years. But lately I've been going up there and scratching the racks again and not trying to miss those opportunities.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I think that's incredibly helpful to zoom in even on a particular resource and get those practical applications. But then as we zoom out further, how can we disciple our children to be a friend of God?

 

Courtney DeFeo: I think... I don't know if I've done this well myself, but I do know that there's nothing more heartbreaking than when your daughter feels alone, or your son. It's hurt. [00:29:55] And it was like that mama bear comes out. There's things that you cannot control and they just are hurt.

 

I think in those moments, it's like teaching them that you feel so alone and it's not true. You have a family that loves you. You have a million friends, but they feel really alone sometimes and just saying like, you will actually never be alone. Like there is a someone that lives inside of you that knows your every thought. And just reminding them of that truth.

 

Now one lady at Orange told me this story and I just loved it. She said her daughter got in the car one day from the lunchroom and the lunchroom was just the worst. I mean, it's so painful. So she gets in the car, "No one sat with me at lunch." She's crying. And she said, "I went into this sermon about how God loves you and you're never alone." And she said, "I know all that. What do I do about the lunchroom?" 

 

And so I was like, Man, that is it right there. Like we don't stop telling him the truth that they are never alone and God is with them. But there's some very real tween and teen things that they're like, "But what about this?" I think we have to engage in both, try to help them solve it practically, but never stop reminding them that they truly aren't alone. [00:30:55] 

 

We use music a lot. I've noticed my girls, like when I don't know what to say, I'll just put on praise music and we'll just kind of sit in that, in the car. Or I've noticed Ella always turns it on when she's showering, when they're cleaning the room. And that is just truth that is just going in their hearts over and over again. It kind of helps them. 

 

I've noticed it helps both of mine reset in a way. Like if I've told them to clean the room again, they're mad at me. Like don't just stomp around the room, put on some praise music and you'll all of a sudden have a different environment up there. So, yeah, I think just keeping to remind them, putting them around people that would remind them that Jesus is with them and sees them. 

 

And then you can specifically pray. I don't think the Holy Spirit is something that's like 18 and up. I believe once they've invited God into their heart, the Holy Spirit can speak to them. And so pray that they'll recognize His voice and that they will feel really seen personally by Him so they're not always drafting off our faith, they're having their own experience. [00:31:51] 

 

And they may be not mature enough to say like, Mom, God put this first in front of my head, but they're having those experiences. And just pray that God really almost repeats Himself so that they go, wow, God did see me in that. Or He did send the person to text me, or He did send data when I needed somebody or that kind of thing. I'm making it sound easier than it is, but I think it's a huge pillar of their faith to know that they are never alone and there's someone that personally can hold the entire world in His hands. And He can also know that, you know, Larson may be struggling with fear or whatever the personal thing is.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and when you're speaking this, it reminds me of this scripture I came across. I remember it meant something different when I became a mom. It's in Ephesians 5. It's parts of 18 through 20. It says, "But be filled with the Holy Spirit and constantly guided by Him. Speak to one another in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, offering praise by singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord. [00:32:51] Always giving thanks to God the Father for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

And I think you just illustrated that is such a great way. To disciple is even pointing them to praise music. It seems too good to be true.

 

Courtney DeFeo: They get in the car and say, "Mom, you won't believe this" and just say like, I don't know for sure, but that may have been God. Just like, you know, if they say something like, this is crazy this happened, to say, it might not have been coincidence. It might've been God trying to send you. And kind of getting their eyes used to looking for that.

 

I'll tell you this story that I just shared in the message this weekend. And it just blew me away. It's one of the most surreal encounters I've had with the Lord. And I tell my girls about this, and I'm like, "You're lucky. It's not just for me. He can do this stuff."

 

But it was on my birthday a couple of years ago. We've been here in Texas about seven years, but I just get homesick around my birthday. I'm like, "I want to be with my mom. I want to go see my sister." And so I get a little pouty every year. And I was sitting here feeling particularly frumpy because it was COVID. I'd gained some weight and I'm like, "Ooh. Like I'm going to for real pity party. [00:33:51] 

 

I remember Sarah Haggerty, a friend of mine said, "You can just ask God, what do you think of me? And then write down whatever He says." And He's never spoken audibly to me, but He will put things in my heart. And I'm like, "Was that my heartburn? Did I just make that up?" I just heard Him say, not audibly, lovely. "You are lovely." 

 

And that would have been quite the opposite of what I was feeling. I was believing some lies from the enemy that morning. And I just was on my porch and just said, "Lord, what do you think of me?" Which I think is such a great question our girls can ask to make sure they're hearing truth and not the enemy, just lying to them.

 

Fast forward about an hour or so, my friend neighbor texted me and said, "Hey, I put a little something on your porch for your birthday." And I was like, "Oh, someone remembered." And I go out there and there's... I don't even remember what she gave me. It could have been earrings, dish towel. But on the front was a card and I opened it and it said, "You are lovely." I mean, what? It was literally God's like, "I'm telling you, I'm trying to tell you you're lovely." 

 

And I called Ashley crying, I said, "What? Oh my gosh." [00:34:50] And she said, "The crazy thing is I prayed that morning for God to use me in little ways, just to remind my friends how much God loves them. And I went to find your birthday card and I've had this card forever. And it's like it just jumped out of the box that it was for you. So I just put it on your porch." 

 

I tell my girls that because it's like we all need that. We all need the Holy Spirit to enter into our day and say like, I see you and you are not a failure. You are not ugly. You are not just average or blah. Like I'm trying to think all the things they say. But you are lovely. So I have clung onto that. 

 

And try to remember that that is available. Like you said, in Ephesians, it's available to us. We just need to be listening and pray that God will show Himself to our kids. Because it's possible.

 

Laura Dugger: Yeah. Your story brings tears to my eyes. 

 

Courtney DeFeo: Isn't it really cool? 

 

Laura Dugger: There's scripture that says He delights in every detail of our lives. That is beautiful.

 

Courtney DeFeo: It is so cool. So I say all of us ask today and don't feel afraid if it's like, well, I heard busy. Well, that's probably not Him. If it's convicting, that's okay. If it's condemning and telling you you're awful, it's not His voice. [00:35:58] And so I just say, Lord... just ask it over and over again, because I think that's not selfish. I think we just need to be reminded and kind of get this voices out. 

 

And our kids have a very loud internal voice. And we need to teach them how to not just believe what Satan is spinning in their head or what their friends said. We can believe what friends say. And their friends get a really loud voice in their mind and their heads in middle school particularly. We just need to keep training them how to just deflect that in some way of like, that is not who you are. Maybe you had a bad day, maybe you were angry, but you are not a bad person. And just keep retraining and redirecting. Can I just say? This is so hard.

 

Like people that are acting like it's easy, it's not easy. Like it is hard to be intentional. And that's why I think we... I don't know how people do it without Jesus. Because you have four girls. I'm already exhausted with two. Like it will take the power of the Holy Spirit to parent these kids. And you won't get to the full list is what I'm realizing. [00:36:58] I have this mental checklist of all the things I need to teach them before they graduate and my husband's like, "It's not possible. It's not even possible to get to all the things like teach them how to change a flat tire, make sure they floss. All the practical and emotional things. You need the Lord for sure.

 

Laura Dugger: Who is someone you love who could use encouragement today? With that person in mind, will you think back to all The Savvy Sauce podcasts and articles available and choose one to share with them right now? Or if you want to love and encourage our team, we invite you to join Patreon. You can put your love of The Savvy Sauce into action by visiting TheSavvySauce.com, clicking on the Patreon tab, then following the prompts under "join Patreon here". We can't wait for you to have access to all the bonus features that we offer our patrons. Thanks for your support.

 

Courtney, I consider you to be a queen of resources. What are the other books and podcasts and resources that you turn to for parenting? [00:38:02] 

 

Courtney DeFeo: I have a lot of friends in this space. So I will say on books, top of the list that just came to my mind, so I guess I should share in case the Lord wants to give this to somebody. Jeannie Cunnion is a dear friend of mine. We went to Auburn. But she has several books. Parenting the Wholehearted Child is a great one. Her first one. And then she's got a couple since then that some is about your child's faith. 

 

And Don't Miss Out is basically what we've been talking about. Like don't miss out on the power of the Holy Spirit for you as a mom, but then also for your kids. So any of her books I would highly recommend have been great. 

 

Then one just came to my mind this morning that has been a long time, but it's a part of Orange, but Kara Powell is a doctor and she wrote a book called Sticky Faith. This really piqued my interest because there is a huge percentage of kids that will walk away from their faith in the college years. They just get out of their parents' dictatorship and they're like, Well, now I'm going to do whatever I want.

 

She's a researcher. So she did research on what are the kids that stayed in their faith and didn't do it perfectly, but stayed connected to their faith, what were the common denominators? [00:39:04] I love data. I'm like, okay. And it's a short list. I remember not being condemned or overwhelmed going like, okay, I can do this. I can stay at these things. And just pray for them that they will stay around. So that one's a good one. 

 

Then on podcast I love Heather McFadden. She has one called Don't Mom Alone. She is so, so grounded in the Lord. I love the way she interviews. There's hundreds of them. She's been doing it for years and years. So probably like 300 episodes. And they're real topical. So you can scroll through and find whatever the thing is that you're struggling with and you can pretty much find one. 

 

I think her website even has a search engine where you could say like, you know, screaming toddlers or a marriage on the rocks while you're parenting. You can search some things on her site and they'll help. But I do like just her heart and knowing how she's going to reframe. Just like you're doing. We can talk all day about kids' behavior but are we rooting that conversation in Jesus? And she does that really well. 

 

The next one podcast is called Birds on a Wire. Karen Stubbs. I love her. [00:40:05] I just wrote the forward for her new book. That's Survival Guide to Motherhood. And she has a great podcast similar to Heather's. It's called Birds on a Wire. And you can search also by topic.

 

I remember one time I was going in to have a confrontation with a couple middle school moms that our three daughters got in trouble and I really felt like I was supposed to kind of call us all out and circle the wagons on these girls. I just was about 10 minutes early and I pulled that up because I was like, "Lord, I need you, but I don't know how to phrase this in a way that won't offend these two moms." And she had a thing that was like approaching other parents when it's tricky or something like that. I just scrolled through and it left off the screen and I listened to it. And it was just like having a mentor right beside me. 

 

Karen's been a mentor a long time, but I can't have coffee with her. She's in Atlanta, I'm here. If you don't have a mentor in your life, which I highly recommend, she's a virtual mentor. She's got grown kids. She's been through it all. She's super real. She's in touch with actually what's hard. And she's awesome. [00:41:09] 

 

Laura Dugger: That is such a great list. I'll link to a few previous episodes. Karen has been a repeat guest and Jeannie came on to talk about the Holy Spirit and her book Don't Miss Out. So I second your opinions on all of those ladies that you recommend.

 

Courtney DeFeo: Oh. Good. Good. Good. Awesome.

 

Laura Dugger: And now just for fun, what are some of your favorite relationship-building activities to do with your daughters?

 

Courtney DeFeo: I think there's a lot. Like I said, I teeter on obsession with them. So I really love... and I will say in the teen years, don't believe the lie that's awful. I just think what you're... it's almost like what you're looking for. And I don't want to use that whole word manifest, but it's like God says we can set our minds on things. Like if you set your mind that you're going to enjoy your kids in the teen years, it is hard. Like it's emotionally... the technology is so hard to manage. It is emotionally hard. 

 

But I wouldn't look back at someone in a two-year-old three-year-old phase and be like, "Oh, just get over it." It's physically draining. [00:42:09] Like having to stay awake and get these threads physically through this stuff is super draining. Just don't put the entire basket of teenage years is hard when it's real... look for the good. Like they're fun people. They're becoming their own humans. Their friends are hilarious. So I've tried to engage, but also I've told them upfront, like I will not be your best friend. I will be your friend, but I'm at the end of the day is my job to parent you, and you're not going to like some things. And I'm typically the disciplinarian. So they've been mad at me more than Ron, but there's some fun moments.

 

So a couple of those are we to travel together. And even if it's a day road trip or... we've gone some pretty cool places because of the airline perks. But we love seeing new places and try new restaurants. Obviously, with girls, they like all the things. My girls are super girly. So they like nails shopping, thrifting, coffee, all those little things. 

 

Thrifting is one I didn't do growing up, but you can give them a budget of $10 or $20 and take them to a thrift store and they can find some really cool finds. So that's a less expensive one than going to like Lululemon or Anthropologie. Giving them some budgets like that. [00:43:14] 

 

Ella loves music. She sings and does choir. But she got on a Harry Styles kick. And I'm not endorsing Harry Styles as a human being, but his music is fun. We've been to two concerts together and we've gotten some flack from some other Christians that are like, "Oooh." You know, just saying that he's not the best influence. But I know her heart. She's grounded in Jesus but she loves a good song. We had more fun at those concerts. Like I was squealing like a teenager, you know? It was so fun. Those have been fun for us. 

 

Larson is my crafty girl. So any sort of get her hands in something, make something, paint something. So I've tried to make time for that with her. Or just supply it. You know, like say you're not... she's 13, but she will still get into some slime and she loves to make a mess. So when her friends come over, I have to bite my tongue and not say, Gross, I don't want any more slime and just let them be crappy. Sometimes I'll get involved with that. 

 

The other one that I would highly recommend, and I'm a little biased because I'm on the board, but Lighthouse Family Retreat is a place where you can serve families with cancer. [00:44:20] And we do that about every other year. I'm telling you, it doesn't even matter if it's a mission trip locally, you know, internationally, or even in your own town. Like showing them what it feels like to use their gifts and just their presence for other people as a great way to spend time together. And you'll see the best of your kids come out. 

 

I love who my family is at Lighthouse. It's like all the needs and the whininess is gone. And they're just zoning in on this family that's had a child walking through cancer, their siblings have been destroyed by it, the marriages are almost destroyed. And we get to basically help them have a great beach vacation. I've never seen my kids do laundry like this or clean up. I'm like, I didn't know you had these skills. And they are making sure this family has their floors swept and their food, the whole babies. It's really a powerful thing to watch. If you ask them, that would probably be top of their list of things they love together as a family.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. What a creative and meaningful idea. You're just a fresh spring of ideas. [00:45:20] If we want to dive deeper into any of these topics that we covered today, where would you direct us after this conversation?

 

Courtney DeFeo: You can search my name and podcasts. I've done a lot of podcasts, but I did have one for a season called Treasured. And that has about a hundred episodes that I still fully support. I just got tired during COVID. I had a lot of migraines and some new diagnosis there, and I just took a break. And I haven't gone back yet. So you're one of the first podcasts I've done in a long time.

 

But I would say Treasured podcast probably has a lot about raising girls. That's probably it. And I'm on Instagram every now and then, but I'm not really consistently putting out content. But I try to use it as a place when God puts something on my heart, I'll try to specifically encourage people with whatever that thought is. So check me out there. 

 

But just know like this all sounds good, but my kids are at an age where I can't throw them under the bus too often. It's their life. And so what you can see from people like me is like, Oh man, their life is perfect. [00:46:19] You know, we've had some rough goes and I just can't talk about it all the time. So just know you're normal. Don't give up. Keep being intentional. Every day is new. One foot in front of the other. And just really get good at apologizing. Because I do that more than anything. I'm like, "Guys, I was not nice yesterday. I am so sorry." If you interviewed my girls, they would be able to tell you a full load of things that have not gone well here. But I'm just an imperfect mom trying to follow Jesus and, and really steward these kids that I only have for just a little season.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I think your transparency is very relatable. You may remember from last time we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Courtney, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Courtney DeFeo: I do think because of the mom that I had and because of a certain wiring of mine, I love being a cheerleader and specifically for my kids and encouraging them very specifically. [00:47:20] Like I said, if someone had just called me on my birthday and said, you're so great, that would have been awesome. But because they were specific and followed the Lord's prompting, it hit so deep. I just think encouragement is biblical. Like He tells us to spur one another on in Hebrews and encourage them to encourage one another daily as long as it's called today.

 

I think it's not to say you can't discipline your kids, but they need reminders all the time that they're good, that they're kind, that they're worthy of being a great friend. And so just pray that God can peek into their hearts and see specifically where they're struggling. And you can call out whether it's physically like, Hey, I love your... you look so cute in those pants. Or Hey, I love the sister that you are. Like I see you Ella and how you protect her. 

 

I mean, I wrote something on this recently on Instagram about their relationship. And it was a prayer that I had early on that they would be sisters that loved each other. And they have fought and it's unnerved me because I don't like... I want them to get along so bad. But watching their relationship develop over the years has been really sweet. And so I try to encourage that specifically and say, you know, Lars, I love how you gave her and her friends space. I was a little sister, I know what it's like to knock on the door and want to be included. [00:48:33] 

 

So just really try to call out the things that they're doing well and not just nitpick all the things, which I am a nitpicker. I have to catch myself all the time and be like, all they've heard today is pick up your clothes. Oh my gosh. Why do you leave trash there? That tone is rude. There's time for direction, but I would say the majority of your mouth needs to be lifting them up and not inflating. 

 

Like you don't want them to go on American Idol and have no voice and be like, my mom told me I was a great singer. You don't want to be projecting lies, but it's like you want them to feel seen and that they're good enough in your home. Because I do think in the Christian culture, this was convicted to me a few years ago, that they can feel like they have to earn their love. Like they have to be good enough to be loved by us and they have to be good enough to be loved by Jesus. And that is just false. And so anything we can do to counteract that. And I think encouragement is a huge piece of it. 

 

You know, Ella texted me today about a GPA and a ranking, and I said, "Ella, this is not your identity. [00:49:32] I want you to try your best, but at the end of your life, you are not going to look back and be like, I'm so glad I was 12th percentile in my class. Like, who cares? You know what I mean? So just constantly redirecting them that they are enough. And it's tricky. It's tricky because I do see the trash on the floor and the gum on the side of the car seat and all the stuff. 

 

That's the quick answer to savvy sauce. I would say knowing your kid, cheering them on, and having a heart of encouragement for them.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. Courtney, you are always lovely and fun and uplifting. I really did enjoy hosting you. Thanks for being my returning guest today.

 

Courtney DeFeo: Thank you. Keep up the good work. I know so many moms are clinging to this when maybe they have a lonely season and they need a friend. So you're being a friend to so many. And it's going further and wider than you probably even know. So keep up the good work.

 

Laura Dugger: Goodness. Thank you for the encouragement. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? [00:50:33] It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:51:34] 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:52:35] 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:53:34] 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release: Answering Common Financial Questions with Natalie Taylor

Special Patreon Re-Release: Answering Common Financial Questions with Certified Financial Planner and Speaker, Natalie Taylor

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 13: 11 (NIV) “Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow.”  

 

Matthew 6:19-21 (NIV) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”  

 

Natalie Taylor is a Certified Financial Planner, Professional and Behavioral Financial Advisor who is passionate about helping people cultivate a plan for their finances based on their values and goals so they can not only make progress, but find confidence, balance, and peace along the way. Frequently quoted in major publications such as the Huffington Post, Forbes, Business Insider and Lifehacker, Natalie draws on many years of comprehensive financial planning experience and a decade of professional speaking to share advice that works in real life, not just on paper. 

 

Natalie’s Website 

 

Thank you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website 

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

If this is your first time here, welcome. We are doing something new today, so you chose to listen in on an exciting day. 

And if you've been around for a while, have you heard us talk about Patreon? This is a platform that financially sustains The Savvy Sauce. When listeners appreciate the content they have access to for free, they sometimes choose to financially support our team so that we can be funded to continue producing podcast episodes.

You may have heard me say before that if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset all our production and team costs to produce this podcast. [00:01:27] As a thank you to those who support us through Patreon, our team releases a bonus episode each month and a downloadable scripture card each quarter exclusively for those paying Patreon. These recordings are timeless and we have decided to unlock the vault and release just a few of these throughout the year. In doing this, we hope to show you what rich content you're missing out on by not being a patron. 

So, I would like to personally invite each one of you today to visit thesavvysauce.com, click on the Patreon link, and follow the prompts under Join Patreon here. For just $5 per month, you're going to instantly have access to over 50 bonus episodes like this one, with new ones released every month. You will also receive a downloadable scripture card designed by Ang at Jars of Grace every quarter. 

So for today, I'm pleased to share an episode that originally aired in January of 2019 with my guest, Natalie Taylor, who is a certified financial planner and speaker. [00:02:30] 

Here's our chat.

Thanks again for joining us. Welcome, Natalie. 

Natalie Taylor: Thank you. Thanks for having me back. 

Laura Dugger: Do you mind just sharing who you are and what's going on in your life right now?

Natalie Taylor: So I am a financial planner. I have been for almost 15 years, and I've worked with thousands of clients over the years and spoken with groups, big and small, about financial topics. 

I'm also a mom and a wife. I have two little boys and one very active husband, and I live out here in Santa Barbara, California.

Laura Dugger: Well, and we'll just dive right in. What are some effective strategies for our listeners so that they can enjoy their finances today but still be wise about preparing for their future?

Natalie Taylor: One of the things that we touched on was the concept of the fun account of having a release valve, a guilt-free splurge account that you save into on a regular basis so that you can enjoy life today. I think that's exceptionally important. [00:03:28] 

I think another way that you can enjoy life today and still be wise for the future is something that I would call finding where your leverage is. When we look at making progress towards your goals, you may have all of your income that comes in on a monthly basis and is always the same amount, and so your leverage is going to need to be found in your monthly income. There's going to need to be a percentage of money that's available on a monthly basis to move you forward. 

But you may be in a place where your leverage is really not in your monthly income. Maybe your monthly income is truly all needed or virtually all needed to support just your everyday expenses. And if that's the case, then you need to find where else your leverage is so that you can make progress for the future. 

And that might be in bonuses or commissions. Maybe you don't plan to save very much on a monthly basis, but you agree that those bonuses, other than the amount going to your fun account, are 100% for your goals, to make progress towards your goals. [00:04:29] 

Or maybe it's that you can pick up a side gig and your regular salary from your regular job is really just enough to cover your expenses, but your side gig gives you the opportunity to put some money towards your goals. 

So I think it's really kind of taking a step back and figuring out where is my opportunity for progress. Is it in my monthly income? Is it in side gig income? Is it in bonuses? Is it in commissions? Is it in career progression or something else? But really identifying where your leverage is and then accepting and being okay with the fact that maybe my leverage isn't in my month-to-month income. And that's okay because I know that I am going to make progress with my bonuses.

Laura Dugger: What would you say is a first step that you would advise a listener to take today?

Natalie Taylor: Any time that you're really trying to focus on your finances, as we talked about last time, going values first, figuring out, okay, what's really important to me, so that you can use that as a lens or a filter as you sort through the rest of the decisions to be made, which yeses are going to stay in your budget, which noes need to go away in your budget. [00:05:38] Those values are going to be a really important guide for you.

And then making sure that you spend some time to develop your goals and figure out what are we trying to accomplish. And in setting financial goals, I would aim to work towards anywhere from two to five goals at one time. If you work towards more than five goals, like I want to build an emergency fund and save for retirement and save for a house and start a business and pay down my debt, if you work towards more than five, it can be really difficult to see any meaningful progress because your water hose is spread across too many buckets and they're not going to fill up very fast.

On the flip side, if you only work towards one goal at a time, that means that other goals are going to take a long time to get to. And when we think about investing, which is appropriate for some of your goals, like retirement, maybe saving for college for kiddos, etc, waiting five or 10 years to start is going to make a huge negative impact. So it's important to not, for example, say, I'm going to pay off every penny of debt that I have, and then I'll think about any other goal. [00:06:43] 

It's important to do a few at once. So if paying down credit card debt, for example, is a goal for you, fantastic. You should probably have a couple other goals that you're working towards at the same time. Maybe it's building an emergency fund and saving to buy a house. Allocating across a few goals all at once is a really, really important habit.

Laura Dugger: Any tips for the following areas? First, generally, just how much should I save?

Natalie Taylor: Yeah, this is such an individual answer. I hate to say it, most of my answers are "it depends". Not because I'm dodging the question, but just because it really does depend on what your financial situation looks like, how much progress you've made so far, what kind of progress you're trying to make, and what your means are. So it really does depend. 

I would say, as a general rule of thumb, I will give a percentage. But before I say the percentage, I want to just give a note of encouragement that if your percentage at this moment is 1%, that is great. [00:07:45] That is okay. That is a starting point. That is moving in the right direction. And you can make a plan to set milestones so that you can reach a larger amount over time. 

The general number I'll give you is saving 20%, 20% of your money going towards your goals. So that doesn't just mean savings in a savings account. Maybe it's 10% is going to retirement, and 5% is going to your emergency fund. And then another 5% is being used to make progress, paying down your student loans above your minimum payments, or paying down credit card debt above your minimum payments. 

But I would say, in general, putting 20% of your income to goals is a great place to be. But again, most people in the US are not there. And it will take time to build to that, and that's okay. So don't let that number scare you off, or cause you to put your head back in the sand. It's just a general number to maybe have in the back of your mind as you move forward and make progress, starting from wherever you are now. [00:08:49] 

Laura Dugger: That's great. So even, like I said, just starting with that 1% and then growing. And over time, if somebody, let's say it's at least maybe 10% that they're saving toward different things, where would like vacations or a house renovation project, would that be part of that 20% that you're working toward?

Natalie Taylor: It can be, yeah. It all depends on what your goals are. But yeah, that can absolutely be part of that. 

I would also say things like vacation. If a family vacation is an important part of what you like to do every year, then it's important that it's part of your budget. So just like we talked about saving into the fun account, maybe there's a vacation account that you're saving if you want to spend $3,000 on a family vacation every year. Maybe there's an account that you have that you save $250 a month into so that when you guys are ready to take your vacation, you've got the cash to be able to do it. 

Instead of putting the vacation on the credit card and then paying it off for 12 months and then doing the same thing over and over, you can get on the front end of it by just setting up a vacation account and saving, in this case, $250 a month so that you have the cash ready when you're ready to spend it. [00:10:04] And that's less of a long-term goal that you're building up cash over time for or investing overtime for. That's more of just a part of your lifestyle that is important to incorporate into your budget. Does that make sense?

Laura Dugger: Yes. And your answer... you're just so good at empowering people. And maybe this is off-topic, but kind of what I hear you saying is just the freedom and the creativity that can go into your own budget. Let's say that child care is something that you value because you want to go on date night with your spouse, but it looks like it would be hard to fit in the budget. Maybe you can be creative.

Natalie Taylor: Totally. If one of the primary values for you is quality time with your spouse or with your family, then finding ways to honor that value. Maybe it's that you find another couple that has kids the same age so they have the right equipment and the right knowledge of how to change diapers if that's what they're doing or whatever, which movies are appropriate if the kids are a little older, but that you can do a swap. [00:11:07] Once a month, my kids go to their house. Once a month, they go to our house. 

Maybe it's a day date because it's easier to get child care during the day with a friend for a few hours than a nighttime date. I also have more energy at noon than I do at 6 p.m. So finding creative ways to figure out how can I honor that thing that's important to me in a way that still works with my finances.

Laura Dugger: That is awesome. That leaves us with no excuses then. Whatever our goals and values are, there can be a solution.

Natalie Taylor: Yes. Creativity is important. I find that a lot of times, finances feel like such this mandatory, there's right and there's wrong and there's black and there's white and this is all about numbers. It's really so little of it, honestly, ends up being about numbers. So much of it is about the creativity that you use to figure out how can I solution through my life and my finances to find contentment and empowerment and peace of mind given what's important to me and use money as a tool to do it. [00:12:08] 

Laura Dugger: I love it. I'll bring us back. I'm sorry I derailed us a little bit, but some of these other popular questions that people have, here's another one, is how soon should I pay off student loans?

Natalie Taylor: Yeah, so this is another “it depends” question. I would say that student loans are not as much of a priority to pay off as things like credit card debt because credit card debt generally has higher interest rate than student loans. So it's costing you more money to hold that credit card debt.

So if you have credit card debt, I would say don't make any extra payments on your student loans. Focus on that credit card debt or any other debt that has a higher interest rate than your student loans do. And then from there, I would say if you have all your credit card debt paid off, if you have the start of an emergency fund and you are doing okay on a week-to-week, month-to-month basis and maybe starting to save for retirement and you have a few extra dollars, then absolutely paying off a little extra on your student loans makes sense. [00:13:08] 

Student loans are really exceptionally complex question to give a simple answer to because there are forgiveness programs and forgiveness time periods. And depending on how much you can realistically put towards your loans, sometimes it makes sense to just let some of it get forgiven at the end. And sometimes it makes sense to pay off as much as you can as soon as you can. But it really is so situational. 

Laura Dugger: Okay. What about, how much home can I afford? 

Natalie Taylor: I can give a couple rules of thumb that can help you figure out. This is kind of part of my “teach them to fish” philosophy. But I can give you a couple rules of thumb that will help you figure out how much house you can afford. 

One very straightforward basic one is two to three times your income. So if you make 50,000 a year, then a house worth anywhere from 100,000 to 150,000 might be reasonable for you. If you make 200,000 a year, a house with a value of 400,000 to 600,000 is likely reasonable for you. [00:14:13] 

When I say reasonable, I mean would give you a mortgage that would be less than 30% of your income, which means you still have some wiggle room to actually live life on a daily basis and make some progress towards some goals. 

Another rule of thumb is that given today's interest rates, if you want to buy a home that's 500,000, for example, your monthly payment will be about half that with a couple zeros knocked off. So a $500,000 home might cost about $2,500 a month, a $300,000 home might cost about $1,500 a month. And there can be extra fees like homeowners association or co-op fees if you're in a big city. But those are some good rules of thumb to kind of figure out what might fit for you.

Then the last one I would add on that is a down payment. It's generally a good idea to put 20% down when you buy a home. There are exceptions to that, but that's generally a great rule of thumb. It gives you some equity, it gets you the best interest rates. [00:15:13] And so on a $100,000 home, for example, that would be a down payment of $20,000. 

If you live on the coast like me, where home prices are really expensive, saving for a down payment can be a really difficult goal to accomplish. But hopefully that information is helpful.

Laura Dugger: What about this one? What do you recommend for helping your children with college costs?

Natalie Taylor: In terms of helping kids with college costs, if you are able to check off a few important things off your goal list, like we've paid off all of our credit card debt, we have at least three months of our income in an emergency fund and we're making some progress on retirement, which is likely going to be like saving 10 plus percent for retirement, if you can check those kinds of boxes, then saving into... usually a 529 plan is the right way to save for most people for college. But saving into a 529 plan and using what's called an age-based portfolio can be a great way to go. [00:16:14] 

An age-based portfolio just means that they'll figure out the investments for you and make them less and less risky as your child approaches age 18, because they know that you'll be taking the money out when your child reaches 18 or 19. So it's a nice kind of autopilot way to save for retirement and have the money invested for you and adjust it over time without you having to really lift a finger.

Laura Dugger: So would you recommend the 529 over the ESA?

Natalie Taylor: Yeah, so an ESA is an Educational Savings Account. It's also called a Coverdell, a CESA, so Coverdell Educational Savings Account. And sometimes it's called an Educational IRA. Isn't that just lovely that there's so many names for basically the same account? 

Those can be a great way to save, but they have very low maximums for how much you can put into them. So if you are in a place, for example, where you can save 5,000 a year towards college, then you're likely not going to be able to put all of that into an ESA or Educational IRA or Coverdell account because the maximums are lower than that. [00:17:18] 

Those accounts also have income limits. So if you're above a certain income limit, you're not eligible to contribute to those accounts. But yes, they can be a great option as well.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

[00:17:33] <music>

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen and, if needed, even save their marriage. 

Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. 

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To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinshapeMarriage.org. That's WinshapeMarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

[00:18:49] <music>

Laura Dugger: How can people retire well? What can they be doing now to ensure they can retire well?

Natalie Taylor: I think what I'm going to say is probably all the obvious stuff, like paying off debt and saving early and often and investing in a portfolio over time that is appropriate for your goal. 

But the one thing that I think people might not think about is tending to your health. One of the biggest risks to having a successful retirement financially is the cost of health care and chronic diseases. And some of them are not preventable, but many of them are. And so I think taking charge of your health and taking good care of yourself, I think that's honestly, from a financial perspective, among the most important things that you can do to retire well.

Laura Dugger: That's great. And that is outside the box. I like that. Then even somebody who is more so approaching a retirement age, when would you recommend getting long-term health insurance, or would you even recommend it at all? [00:19:52] 

Natalie Taylor: Yeah, that's a great question. And it's another situational one. There's something called long-term care insurance, which is different than health insurance. So health insurance, either you get through your employer or you have through an exchange or Medicare, once you're 65 can be your health insurance, plus maybe a supplemental plan. 

Health insurance covers things like if you have to go to the emergency room and if you have to go to the doctor and those kind of things. But it doesn't cover what's called long-term care. And those are things like help with activities of daily living or ADLs. Things like going to the bathroom on your own and making your meals and getting dressed. The activities that you do on a daily basis, if you need help with those kinds of activities at some point, it can be quite costly to have somebody to help you with those things. So long-term care insurance is a way to protect against and fund those things should you need help.[00:20:54] 

Of people age 65 right now, 70% of them will need help with those things at some point in their life. So long-term care insurance or a plan for potentially covering the cost of long-term care is a really important consideration. Long-term care insurance is not cheap. So it is something that is not affordable for everyone. And I think it's important to consult if you are in, I'm going to say, those pre-retirement years. Sometimes we call them the big 10, like the 10 years before you retire. 

It's a great idea to consult with a financial planner, especially in that season, to make sure that you're lining up all of your ducks in a row and making sure that you're thinking holistically about all of the risks to being able to successfully retire financially. And health is one of those.

Laura Dugger: Thank you. That was really helpful answer to such specific questions. And now we'll transition to a little bit broader question. [00:21:54] What do you think is the worst financial decision someone could make today?

Natalie Taylor: Oh, gosh, there are several. I think the worst financial decision you can make today is sticking your head in the sand. And just not dealing with finances and just being a reactive victim instead of a proactive player, sitting on the sidelines and just letting your finances happen, I think is one of the worst financial decisions you can make. 

More specifically, I think things like accruing a lot of credit card debt, those things can be really detrimental and really hard to dig out of later. If you're a business owner, not saving on a regular basis to pay your taxes can create a really negative cycle where you end up in tax debt every year and then you have to pay it off the following year and then you don't have enough money for the next year and you end up in this chronic cycle of IRS debt. So those are some of the, I would say, financial decisions that are among the worst to make. [00:22:57] 

Laura Dugger: Yes. And it's not as fun to talk about that, but that's great to be warned and to be empowered. What decision to make today? So let's flip it and do the positive side. What is the best financial decision a listener could make today?

Natalie Taylor: I think the best decision you can make, honestly, is to start to not be intimidated by it and to start somewhere, even just like starting with, I'm going to save a little, I'm going to invest a little and I'm going to pay off a little debt. 

If you're working towards those three things and you're not accruing any new debt and you have a good idea of what your income and expenses look like on a monthly basis, you're at a great starting point. So I would say just starting, not being overwhelmed by that end goal of like, oh, gosh, I read a thing that said I have to save 20 percent for retirement or else I'll be a bag lady. Or, you know, gosh, I'm going to have to save $200,000 as a down payment because I live in San Francisco. Just start. I think that's the best decision. Start making progress. It's progress, not perfection. [00:23:57] 

Laura Dugger: That's good encouragement. You've shared a little bit about what you're doing professionally, but what is next for you?

Natalie Taylor: I was in private practice for most of my career. And then the last five years I've worked for a startup aimed at helping people primarily in their 20s, 30s, and 40s get access to financial planning that's affordable and accessible and objective. I'm just like terribly passionate about helping people with their finances and empowering them to make good decisions in alignment with what's important to them.

I'm excited for an upcoming change. After five years in the corporate world, I am going to be going back out on my own, which will give me the freedom to be able to do a greater volume of public speaking and writing and consulting. So that's what's next for me.

Laura Dugger: Which is great. You are going to be incredible at this. I'm so excited. 

For people listening, if they've really enjoyed this conversation and they want to find you or connect with you, where should they go? [00:24:58] 

Natalie Taylor: Go to my website. That will have access to all of the things that I'm up to, some great articles, and other ways to learn. So maybe we can put a link to that in the show notes if that would be okay.

Laura Dugger: That's perfect. Yes, it will be there, and encourage everyone to reach out to you. As we're winding down for today's chat, we're called Savvy here at this podcast for a reason. "Savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And we would love to hear some insight from your life so that it can inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, Natalie, what is your savvy sauce?

Natalie Taylor: I love this question. It's so good. Opening a fun account is such a good one, but I would say off the financial topic, if that's okay. One of the things that's honestly been really helpful for me on a daily basis, I'm the mother of a 3-year-old and a 5-year-old, and I am always pursuing that ever-elusive work-life balance, or maybe work-life peace is the better way to phrase it. [00:26:02] 

But I set the intention every day to have 30 minutes of undivided playtime with my kids. And in the span of a 12- or 13-hour day of them being awake, it doesn't sound like much, but 30 minutes where my phone is nowhere to be seen, there's no technology, and I'm holding their face, that they know that I am about them in those 30 minutes, I find that it fills them up and it fills me up in a way that far exceeds the 30 minutes that we spent together. Hopefully that's helpful to some of you parents out there. But that's been really helpful for me.

And maybe it's not with your kids. Maybe it's with your spouse. Just having 30 minutes of uninterrupted time to figuratively hold their face and let them know you're my priority, what's going on with you.

Laura Dugger: All of this, Natalie, it was just such a gift to spend time with you. So thank you for the work that you're doing every day to encourage others in this important area of their lives. You are so relatable. You're so full of grace. [00:27:03] I just really admire the special way that you have of connecting with people. And you make this intimidating topic understandable to a wide audience. So, again, thank you for sharing your gift with us today.

Natalie Taylor: Oh, Laura, thanks so much. And thanks so much for having me. This is super fun.

Laura Dugger: We hope you enjoyed this special Patreon release, and we hope it also gives you a glimpse into the amazing conversations we're having on Patreon every month. Next week, the only episode going live is for our paying patrons, and we don't want you to miss out. So head over to thesavvysauce.com, click the Patreon tab, and then follow the prompts. 

By joining Patreon, you are not only financially supporting the ministry of The Savvy Sauce and making our future episodes possible, but you are also signing up to gain access to perks such as downloadable scripture cards and bonus episodes. It will only take you a couple minutes to make a huge difference. So we welcome you to join today. [00:28:08] 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:29:08] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:30:07] 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:31:11] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

199 Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic

199. Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic

 

‬‬“Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.” (‭Job‬ ‭14:5‬ (‭NKJV)

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What are some of the best reasons to praise God for our limits?
2. How can limits humbly teach us the value of being interdependent upon one another?
3. What is your favorite take-away you learned from the process of researching God's good design of our limits and how has it personally changed your life?

 

Kelly M. Kapic is professor of theological studies at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia, where he has taught since 2001. Kelly and his wife Tabitha have two children, Jonathan and Margot.

 

He has written and edited numerous books, including Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering (IVP Academic, 2017), which won the Book of the Year Award from Christianity Today in the category of Theology and Ethics.

Kelly Kapic's Website

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes on Sabbath

99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit

175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Our sponsors for today's episode are Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria.  Check out SolidRockChristianAcademy.org for their alternative schooling option with a solid biblical view. And visit CFAEastPeoria.com for available employment opportunities or to place your catering order. 

 

My guest for today is author, professor, and theologian, Kelly Kapic. Kelly recently authored a book titled, You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News. His insights are so well thought out. His recommended changes to the way we approach efficiency have the potential to positively impact your life. 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kelly. [00:01:18] 

 

Kelly Kapic: It's so good to be with you. Thanks for having me, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: It is truly my pleasure. You had mentioned in your book this interest in limits has intrigued you for more than two decades. So I'd love to know, where did your curiosity originate?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, thanks for asking. There's both personal and theological reasons for that. Maybe the personal would be the right place to start or even focus for this conversation. And some of it's just... some of your listeners will be able to relate to this. 

 

Whether it's at the end of the day, you know, you finally get a minute and you sit on the couch or you put your head on the pillow at night or maybe first thing in the morning when you wake up, in those situations, I so often had found myself kind of being surprised by levels of guilt and shame coming over me.

 

As I kind of would explore that, I was surprised at what I found. Because it's one thing... you know, I'm a theologian. I believe in the reality of sin. [00:02:21] We need to be honest about it. And if a sense of guilt or shame comes because I've been cruel to a coworker, I've said unkind things, I've undermined school or whatever it is, then I need to repent and just really enjoy the beauty and grace of Christ. 

 

But actually, often that sense of guilt or shame was related to some version of this. Kelly, why didn't you get more done today? Why didn't you do more? And so feeling like, you know, is that how we're supposed to feel, I really became very interested in exploring, is that right? A different way of saying it is, what does God actually expect of me in a day, in a month, in a year, in a lifetime? 

 

And I really have found this pretty common among Christians and non-Christians of this endless sense of not getting enough done and guilt and shame about that. So I really wanted to explore, how should we think about those things?

 

Laura Dugger: I'm curious to hear your findings then as well. Could you even just share one takeaway of what God shared with you through this process? What is an answer to that question? [00:03:25] 

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. The short answer is God said, Kelly, you're human and you're not God. So chill out. And we all know the right answer to that, right? If I say, hey, do you think you're God, Laura? You're like, of course not, right? But so many of us in our lives and even what we push on to our children, it's these endless expectations to do more, to be more, to know more.

 

So what does it actually look like to be faithful? And really by slowing down and starting to think through, how does God view me? What does God value? How should we think about this life? With so many external pressures on us, and the church has baptized many of these, we've kind of said, you know what, what really is valuable to God and to life is productivity and efficiency. Do as much as you can and be as efficient as possible. 

 

And I'm really questioning some of that. I love efficiency. I love productivity. But when you take a good thing and you make it the most important thing, it actually can become quite a bad and destructive thing. [00:04:29] So those are some of the ways I would start to think through it.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and I'd love for you to now speak to the person who feels far from this message or perhaps they're skeptical of this topic. Kelly, what are some of the best reasons to praise God for our limits?

 

Kelly Kapic: Well, because, again, He's God and we're not. Part of what happens here is until we start to come to terms with what it means to be human and the goodness of being a human as God originally made us, it distorts everything else until we get back to that. And this is partly why there is, especially in our contemporary culture, kind of a gut reaction against this. And it's this. So if I said, Laura, I was talking to one of your friends and they were really describing you and they said, you know, she's a really dependent person. You know, when we hear the word dependent, you now instantly think, Oh, that person wasn't speaking nicely of me. Right. It's like a negative. [00:05:33] 

 

Part of what I'm interested in exploring is actually biblically what it means to be human is to be dependent. We were made — this is part of the goodness of how God designed us — we were made to be dependent on God, to be dependent on our neighbor, and to be dependent on the earth. And so the very fact that in our culture, the idea of dependence has such an almost exclusively negative connotation attached to it really makes authentic Christian spirituality very difficult. 

 

Now, it is true there are problems like codependency, but that's not what I'm talking about. But we are made to depend on God, others, and the earth. So we are skeptical of these things because we framed not just the American dream, but Christian spirituality in overly individualistic, rugged terms. That undermines our humanity, undermines our community. 

 

But when you can change this and start to see how God intended us as humans to be limited and once you recognize limits, then you recognize the beauty of I need you, I need God, I need the earth. [00:06:42] It starts to open up brand new things. I mean, we could talk about humility if you want it as an example. But this actually is not just God saying, it's okay you're limited. I know it kind of sucks, but it's okay. Like, no, no, no. This is part of the beauty and goodness of his design. It's not part of being a sinner or something.

 

Laura Dugger: Let's elaborate there, then. How can limits humbly teach us the value of being interdependent then upon one another?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's great. So we all know Christians, even non-Christians know, you know, we should be humble. That seems like a good thing. But if you ask most Christians just kind of offhand, you say, why should we be humble, very often our gut reaction is, well, because we're sinners. And it is true we are sinners and that can contribute rightly to the fact that we should be humble. But if you try and build the idea of humility on the foundation of sin, the fact that we're sinners, it actually distorts the whole thing. 

 

If you think the reason we should be humble is because we're sinners, then often in both explicit and implicit ways, what Christians are often told is, you want to become more humble? Focus on what a bad sinner you are.  [00:07:54] 

 

Well, I do think we need to be honest about our sin and our weaknesses. But if you do that, then the path forward is actually by focusing on just how terrible you are, which ironically tends to foster self-absorption just in a negative way and often forms of self-hatred and stuff. But if you build the idea of humility, not on the foundation of sin, but on the foundation of the goodness of God's creation, recognizing even if there were no sin, even if there were no fall, humans were meant to be humble. Right? That's the question. 

 

Adam and Eve before the fall, should they have been humble? The answer is yes. Why? Because even before sin, they were meant to be dependent on God, dependent on others, dependent on the earth. So that humility doesn't just say, I'm sorry, and can you forgive me? Although it does do that. But humility also says, I don't know. Can you help me? Right? Those are creature words.

 

So part of what I'm trying to explore is this idea that God made us as creatures. [00:08:55] So we use this word finitude, which is a fancy term. We don't use it a lot. Finitude just means limits. Limits in space, time, knowledge, power. And the Christian version of the word finitude or limits is creature.

 

To be a creature, a good creature, a good human creature, is to recognize our need and dependence on God, others, and the earth, so that humility can be fostered then in a healthy way by learning to delight in other people, to celebrate them, to not view them as threats. So Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the early 20th century says sin isn't what makes us dependent. Sin is what twists the dependencies. It twists the limits so that now I view the other, my neighbor, as a threat that I either need to dominate or ignore. But Christian humility says, no, I can celebrate them. I can receive what they have to give. I can give to them. We're in this together. There's something bigger. So anyway, that's kind of a lot. But they give you a taste of how this is meant to be liberating, not suffocating. [00:09:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: I like that. And I love it. I think it was just one of my favorite parts of the book. It's on page 178, where you are talking about this idea of being dependent upon one another. I am just going to read one of your quotes because it was brand new to me. You wrote, "Today I am caring for prisoners in jail. I'm evangelizing the disenfranchised in Nepal. I am praying over the sick child in the hospital. I'm serving the recovering victims of sex trafficking. I am standing against racial injustice and I am caring for the widows. And I am doing so much more. How? I am doing all of this because I am part of the living body of Christ. God's Spirit has united me to Christ and because of that union, to my sisters and brothers of the faith. We are one. I am part of the church, both local and global." So will you elaborate on that? [00:10:59] 

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. Thank you. That's great. One of the examples of how this works out is as Christians, we see all the important work that needs to be done in the world. For example, in Matthew 25, it's red letters. So it's got to be really important, right? But Jesus talks about this in Matthew 25, and he tells that very sobering story about the sheep and the goats. And the thing that separates the sheep and the goats in judgment is, did you care for the naked? Did you clothe the naked? Did you feed the hungry? Did you visit the prisoners? This kind of movement towards the marginalized. What do we do with that?

 

I remember I had a former student of mine. He's now in ministry in California, and he called me, and he's very thoughtful. And the single guy pours himself out in university ministry, and he said, "I'm just thinking about this text, and it haunts me." He's like, "I do ministry, but I'm single. I don't have very much money. I'm exhausted. Do I need to start signing up for the food shelter? Do I need to visit prisoners? Maybe I'm a goat." [00:12:09] 

 

And when we hear him, someone like that reflect, we're like, "Oh, man, chill out, guy. You're like taking this stuff too seriously." But his problem is not that he's missing it. It's not that we're so much more advanced and spiritual than he is, and he's just overly concerned. It's just we're just not taking Jesus seriously, and he is. 

 

So the question is, what do we do? How does this kind of work? And you can multiply the examples. Without fully getting into this, I can read the chapter on it. The options we have right now, especially in our politicized, polarized day, is either you need to do everything, and everything needs to be activism, or you do nothing, and you call all of it just politics, and let's stay away from it. 

 

But the church has calls. So how do we understand the sheep and the goats? Does that mean I personally need to visit all the prisoners, I personally need to feed all the people? No. But don't take from that that means God doesn't care about caring for the poor, the needy, the hungry, the prisoner. [00:13:15] And that is vital. 

 

So how does it work? Well, it works because if you read the biblical text in a more corporate understanding of the people of God, then it gets transformed. The way I would put it in one sentence is the aha moment is it takes the entire church to be the one body of Christ. It takes the entire church to be one body of Christ.

 

So we fulfill Matthew 25 not as individuals, but as the corporate church. So if our church really doesn't ever care about the poor and the needy, if there's no one who's doing these things, that's actually a big problem. But that means I can celebrate you in your work that's different than mine because I need you and you need me.

 

And so my friend ministering to college students is doing what a lot of us can't do. A woman I know who's a lawyer in Chicago is so busy, but she is ministering to those college students through Matt, right, because she is connected to him by the Spirit, and he is benefiting from her faithfulness in other ways. [00:14:21] So there's a lot more you could say on that, but the beauty of our interconnection is actually a positive rather than a negative.

 

Laura Dugger: It is. This message promotes so much freedom and an invitation for participation. That just brings us back to Jesus and the good news. That is what he calls us to. So I love that.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. Because I like how you put that. People often worry, if you talk about this, no one's going to do anything. And I question that, at least from my experience, and then, you know, as readers and others talk to me. I think when we don't do anything often is when we look at the needs and the demands and we're crushed by them, right?

 

So we see a lot of people... I work with college students for a living, and you can get a 20-year-old to run through a brick wall for a big cause, and like, yes, I'm going to change the world, and they're going to do all this, and then at 28, they're going to write you because they're totally burned out, right? [00:15:21] 

 

So the beauty is we get paralyzed when we think we have to do everything, but as you said, if you realize, I don't have to do everything, I just have to do some things that God's called me to, then you actually can participate. And that's the right idea. We don't have to do it all, but we do get to participate. That's beautiful.

 

Laura Dugger: I'm so excited to tell you about our two sponsors for this episode. 

 

[00:15:46] <music>

 

Sponsor: Solid Rock Christian Academy in Morton, Illinois, and also Chick-fil-A, located in East Peoria, Illinois. Solid Rock Christian Academy is a brand-new private grade school, and they currently have a kindergarten class for the 2022-23 school year. They are planning to add a grade each year, and they are offering both first grade and kindergarten for fall of 2023.

 

Their goal is to provide their students with a solid biblical education with curriculum that both challenges and meets each student at every learning level. They also believe in offering low technology in their day. They encourage parental involvement through volunteering, and they have a learning environment that teaches students respect, discipline, and real-world life lessons. You might have noticed their remodel this past year at their new location on 4th Street in Morton. 

 

For more information on enrollment for your child, or if you have a teaching degree and are interested in applying, or if you're interested in donating to their worthy cause, you can visit their website, SolidRockChristianAcademy.org. 

 

[00:16:58] <music>

 

Sponsor: Chick-fil-A East Peoria remains one of our consistent and loyal sponsors. I will limit myself to my four favorite things. First, if you like free food, you've got to download their free app. Simply stated, when you eat more chicken, you get to enjoy more treats.

 

Also, if you've never visited them for breakfast before, you're totally missing out. Served Monday through Saturday from 6.30 until 10.30 a.m., it's full of mouth-watering options, and they always have healthy options available. Low in calories, high in protein, and unbelievable in taste.

 

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[00:18:11] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Kelly, what would you say are a few of your conclusions to the question, do I have enough time?

 

Kelly Kapic: The conclusion has got to be yes. As painful as that is, right? We always think "I don't have enough time. I don't have enough time to pray. I don't have enough time to read my Bible. I don't have enough time to do my work." 

 

One of the messages of the book is when we feel this right now, and this includes in Christian circles, we're all feeling crushed, and the only answer we all give is better time management. I think it's not a time management problem. I think it's a theological and pastoral problem. 

 

Because even the idea of managing time is a bit mythical, right? All of us only have 24 hours in a day. So the question is, what does faithfulness look like? So God gives each of us only so much time. We all have bodies. Those bodies need to be fed. Those bodies need sleep. God is the one who gives you a family, gives you a community. [00:19:15] He's calling you into certain responsibilities. So we shouldn't resent or belittle those.

 

We have to be realistic about what commitments actually look like. I think rather than trying to get more time, we need to rethink this. What surprised me is... I think the biblical answer is to cultivate the fear of the Lord. And you're like, what are you talking about? I thought we were talking about do you have enough time. 

 

But it's interesting, the fear of the Lord biblically is not primarily about being scared of God, although sometimes that shows up. But the fear of the Lord is really, if you could put it simply, it's cultivating an awareness of God's presence, of His kindness, of His work, and what He's doing. You're living in the fear of the Lord. You recognize Him throughout your days.

 

One of the things we so struggle with in our day is learning to be present. I would say the beautiful thing is if we can learn to be present with God, we also learn to be present with other people. [00:20:16] That means slowing down a bit. That means being fully present with God, being fully present with others. That changes the equation. So this may not make a lot of sense, and people would have to look more into the chapter. 

 

But I think there is a sense in which we can cultivate the fear of the Lord, which is this awareness of God's presence throughout our days. And that can slow us down and make us reevaluate. Should I do this? Should I not do this? What does faithfulness look like? And that starts to raise certain questions about always valuing efficiency and productivity as our highest goods.

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. I've got my book right next to me. I've highlighted throughout. So one more quote from page 120 that's on this topic. And this may have been my very favorite in the book. But you say, "When productivity alone reigns, we cultivate idolatry rather than worship, isolation rather than community, and selfishness rather than love. [00:21:16] Could you add or elaborate to that thought?

 

Kelly Kapic: Thank you. It's so funny because I'm an American. I love efficiency and productivity. But here's the thing. What's the most inefficient thing you can possibly do? It's love, right? Whether it's a newborn child or a puppy, whether it's a spouse or an aging parent or a friendship. Once you love, you're risking. And now, love actually makes demands on us. It takes time, right? 

 

As you know, one of the shocking things to parents when they have a firstborn is they often thought, Oh, we could just keep our life. And now we're adding a kid. My wife, who's really funny, but when our firstborn was born and Jonathan was tiny, I remember people saying, "How's it going?" And she'd say, "It's good, but he's just super needy." And you'd see this horror on people's eyes. And she's joking around like, of course, they're needy, right? He needs her constantly. Otherwise, he'd literally die. [00:22:21] Well, that's not efficient. That's not, you're not getting a lot.

 

One of the things stay-at-home parents will constantly tell you is so frustrating because of how, quote, unquote, little they're getting done. But if love is God's highest priority, not efficiency and productivity, that equation changes. But that is not an easy message in our day because we have all, whether we know it or not, including me, bought into the narrative, the highest value is productivity and efficiency. And therefore it breeds discontent and an inability to just be present in the season of life God has called you to.

 

Laura Dugger: You also teach that Jesus does not overburden his flock. And so then what is a better way to live, even if we do feel like we're experiencing time poverty?

 

Kelly Kapic: I mean, it kind of goes to what we were talking about with the sheep and the goats. That actually we need the whole church to be faithful. [00:23:22] We do have to ask hard questions when we think about our lives and how we're spending our time. You know, it is funny. The great gift of Twitter and Facebook and those kind of things is it kind of ends the idea that none of us have time to pray. Because that was pretty clever. I'm not actually on Facebook or Twitter, but, you know, that idea of we do have time. 

 

Now, I actually think the reason so many of us spend so much time on things like Facebook, Twitter, binging on Netflix, and stuff, rather than blaming those things, I've started to think the amount of time people spend on those is not so much the problem. It's a sign of a deeper problem. And that is we feel crushed by the endless expectations. So those kind of diversions and distractions allow us to just breathe. So they're coping mechanisms that culturally we've kind of... 

 

So rather than blaming those things, I would say, why do we just want to binge Netflix? Why do we just want to crash? [00:24:25] Well, part of it's because of these unrealistic expectations. So Jesus doesn't have unrealistic expectations for you. He knows exactly who you are. He knows the seasons of life that you're in. And if you have newborns, it's very different than if you're an empty nester. 

 

If you're single and you have this kind of income, that's different than if you're 42 and you're... No one knows us better than Jesus. And He is not up there constantly frustrated. Part of what He's saying is, what does faithfulness look like? And I think that's a better question rather than, did I get enough done? All of that.

 

But it does bring up these deeper questions of how does God actually view you? What does God think of you? What does God expect? I guess I would just add to this one other thing that's related is how does God view us? 

 

One of the things that I've really tried exploring the book is, I think we've misunderstood the way God views. So if you ask a Christian, does God love you? We are all like, yes, of course, God loves us. He's God. He has to love us. [00:25:28] 

 

But if you change the question... I have college students in my office sometimes who are really struggling and I'll say, do you think your parents love you? And they'll say, of course, they're my parents. But if I ask them, do you think your parents like you? It's amazing how often tears will come to their eyes. They're sure that their parents love them, but it's kind of like a requirement because they're their parents. But they're not actually sure their parents like them. 

 

I actually think the same thing with God. We think, God's God, He has to love us, but He certainly doesn't like us. And that's worth wrestling with. Because who is it that made you with your particularity, right? God doesn't love our sin. But the reason why He wants to deal with our sin is because He actually wants to liberate us to be the particular human creatures He's called us to and loves. He actually likes what He made. He doesn't like the sin that distorts it.

 

So anyways, now I'm meandering a bit, but all of those things are actually related to growing comfortable, being a good human creature in the midst of a full world, and recognizing I don't have to be God. [00:26:36] I need to love God, neighbor, and earth. I don't need to do everything.

 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful then, even playing that out with the practicality of time. But let's also talk about stress. What are your thoughts on stress as you've studied it, even biblically?

 

Kelly Kapic: There's a chapter where I kind of distinguish stress and anxiety. People use these words in different ways, and there are some technical ways to even use the word anxiety. But for our purposes, I would just say, I do think there's a distinction there worth keeping, because we often tell people how stressed out we are. 

 

But when you think about it, stress itself is not intrinsically or inherently bad, right? If you hear a lion roar, you could feel some stress. That stress is kind of what will get the adrenaline going. You might be able to climb the tree faster. If you have a due date of something and you feel some stress, that actually surprisingly can help you rally to get things done, etc. [00:27:41] Stress is not bad.

 

Even scientifically when people talk about our bone structure and that kind of thing, there's a certain amount of stress or tension the body needs to develop and maintain muscle and strong bones and that kind of thing. But all that to say, stress doesn't have to be inherently bad. But the problem with stress is when you move from episodic, occasional, helpful things to a lifestyle.

 

So this is why when our bodies are on full alert all the time, it's one thing if you go, Oh, I'm in midterms. I need to push really hard. I feel that stress. It's another thing to live all of your life, not getting sleep, working too hard, and all that. So I think that is where we end up with a problem. And our bodies can feel it, right?

 

As many of your listeners will know, Van der Kolk's famous book, The Body Keeps the Score, by the psychologist. And basically, your body, at some point, it stores trauma, it stores these things. And at some point, your body says, That's enough. So I would want to distinguish that. [00:28:52] 

 

And then anxiety, when it says, do not be anxious, we want to be careful because of that word, how it gets used. But I don't think God is saying be naive. I don't think he's saying just upward and onward, be happy all the time.

 

But there is this sense of we shouldn't have to live constantly anxious about the next moment and about life. So if we find ourselves living in a state of perpetual stress, with high levels of anxiety, we should be asking some pretty fundamental questions about, have we misunderstood the life God has called us to? And then what decisions can we make to try and change this situation?

 

Laura Dugger: I love your paradigm shift, where you just teach that stress is a good gift from God, but it's a terrible master.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's right.

 

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What has God taught you about process?

 

Kelly Kapic: It's amazing that something like process is related to the whole conversation of our finitude and limits. For example... This relates to my concern about the doctrine of creation. If you ask Christians, they're like... I just think evangelicals and many Christians the last 150 years have a very underdeveloped doctrine of creation. [00:31:01] And people say, no, we talk about it all the time. But when we talk about it, we only tend to talk about when did God create the earth and how did He do it, right? And those can be legitimate conversations. But when it gets reduced to that, it distorts everything. 

 

So go back to the creation narrative, because this relates to process. Here's the question. Could God have made everything instantaneously, like in a millisecond or faster? And we would all say, yes, of course. So it doesn't matter if you think the earth is, I don't know, 10,000 years old or if you think the earth is 10 billion years old, as radically different as those are. 

 

What's interesting, no matter where you're at on that spectrum, everybody has to admit that God who could have made it instantaneously doesn't. He takes days, whatever that means, right? And after each day, he says, oh, that's good. That's good. This God likes to build. He takes time.

 

As Genesis 1:2 talks about the spirit hovering over the Tohu va-Vohu, over this chaotic waters, and He's bringing about order. [00:32:01] So all that to say that God, even before their sin, God has always been comfortable taking His time. He's comfortable with process. 

 

And part of what we need to see is the God of creation is the same as the God of recreation or the God of sanctification, the God of redemption. It's not a different God. So God is comfortable working in our lives.

 

So you and I, we're like, I'm so grateful I'm forgiven of my sins. But then it's like day after day, we're wrestling with sin. And you think, well, am I forced to just think God is perpetually disappointed? Like, "I can't believe you sinned again. I forgave you, but I can't just keep doing this? Why aren't you growing? Why aren't you developing?" 

 

But if you think, no, no, God, God's comfortable with process. He delights in process so that He doesn't want you just soaked in sin. The example I would give, maybe this would help, is say Margo, when my daughter was learning to walk and she was little, like everybody's seen children learn to walk. And I'd set up Margo and have her put her hand on the couch.[00:33:05] I'd back up about eight feet. I'd say, "Margo, come to me. Come on, come on, sweetie." And she nervously, but eventually moves her hand from the couch and starts to walk to me. And you know, what's going to happen? She hits the ground, right? And so I yell at her and say, "Margo, I told you to walk." Of course, I didn't do that, right? She's my daughter. I went over and I said, "Oh, Margo, it's okay. Good job. That's great." And kissed her wherever there might be a bruise. And I said... 

 

And we all know I did that because I love my daughter. And yet we think God is like a bad father. That when we fall, He's like, "I can't believe you. I told you not to sin." No, no, no. He's a Father who comes over and lovingly picks us up. It's not that when I'm doing that with Margo, I think Margo walking... I don't care if you learn to walk or not. No, no, no. I knew she needed to walk, but I also knew it would take time. She needed muscle development. She needed balance. I knew her situation and it would be a process. [00:34:04] 

 

God knows our situation better than we do. And He who began a good work is committed to seeing it through, even though it's going to take way longer than we think. So, anyways, those are some of the thoughts on process.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, that's good. And even some truths from the Old Testament, but you also draw in your book from New Testament that even Jesus grew. And we can learn so much through that.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. I mean, there's shocking verses. Luke 2:32. He grows in wisdom, in stature, and in this way that God talks about this kind of growth. How do we think about that? How comfortable are we with a baby Jesus, with a teenager Jesus, all of that?

 

And people say, but the Bible doesn't talk about that. It doesn't talk about Him as an 8-year-old or Him going through puberty or Him... Actually, that's beautiful. The fact that the Bible doesn't talk about it tells you how normal it was. Because what the Bible tells you is what is surprising and unexpected. [00:35:03] So it doesn't tell you Jesus went and used the restroom. It doesn't tell you Jesus laughs heartily at His friend's joke. He didn't have to tell you that because it all happened just like it happens for everybody. Right? It tells you the surprise: being born of a virgin. It tells you these kind of things. But the fullness of his humanity, including His growth in those kind of... He's not growing and becoming more divine. These are deep Christological theological questions. 

 

But for our purposes, yeah, He really does grow. And that doesn't ever mean it's not growing from being a sinner to not a sinner. He never was a sinner. And yet he experienced growth.

 

Laura Dugger: And I love that. It makes me think of parenting. So Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man. So the physical part and intellectual and spiritual development and the EQ changing.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. That's good.

 

Laura Dugger: So then also in light of parenting, there was a section of your book that I thought was particularly thought-provoking, specifically, when you unpack the question, is God efficient? [00:36:11] Will you elaborate on that, especially in light of parenting?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. I mean, it kind of when we're talking about efficiency and productivity and even process. Given the fact that God could have made the world instantaneously and doesn't, there's a sense in which that's not as efficient as it could have been. God could have made the world just gray, different shades of... You know, there's plenty of people listening to this podcast, I don't mean this derogatory, but there's plenty of people listening to this podcast if you walk into our houses, every wall is white. And the reason is it's very efficient.

 

Then if there's a scratch or whatever, you got one bucket of paint, it can go anywhere. It's real simple. So why didn't God just make everything white? The extravagance of a peacock's feathers, the depth of people's voices, the differences in the variety, all of the color, in a sense, it's kind of like, come on, God, did you really have to do that?

 

And I think actually all of those things show efficiency is not God's highest value. [00:37:13] He loves beauty. He loves to lift the gaze. He loves to provoke the song. He loves to slow us down. He loves the way connections get made. 

 

So there's all these signs that God has always been comfortable with process, with diversity, those kind of things in terms of beauty. God loves efficiency and God can make a dead person instantly alive. He can instantly turn water into wine. It's not that God is against efficiency, but His highest value is an efficiency. It's love. And that does change things. And if we could live more like that, I think it would be very liberating and it would cultivate community and health and wholeness and the beauty of the gospel in ways that we desperately need in our day that's so inhumane.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Well said. For anyone who resonates most with practical life application, how can we then apply these principles?

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's great. [00:38:14] As you know, the last chapter, which is by far the longest, really does try and give you various practices. One is cultivating the idea of vulnerability, which might surprise people. That would be worth looking at. 

 

Another is this idea of cultivating both lament and gratitude. And both lament and gratitude because both of them help us... lament is crying out to God with why or how long O Lord, those kind of honest questions you find throughout the Psalms and throughout the scriptures. You think, how is that related?

 

Well, lament and gratitude are two sides of the same coin. Both of them are an honest recognition of our dependence on God and that we can't control everything and that we're not in charge. So when painful things happen, we cry out to God in our dependency, God, why? Where were you? What is it happening? And that's actually a good, healthy sign of spirituality. 

 

But similarly, we cultivate gratitude. [00:39:15] We cultivate this sense of look at how God showed up, look at how He provided, look at this beautiful gift of a relationship I didn't expect. And it's really about having eyes to see and ears to hear. Anyways, that's some practices that we talk about. 

 

Actually, it was really fun to write in that chapter a section on a theology of sleep. How sleep is is a matter of faith. If you're in a war zone, soldiers can't sleep because they're worried someone's going to shoot their back. Unless you have someone to guard your back. 

 

Well, it's very interesting. Christians have a theology of sleep. We can sleep because, as the Bible says again and again, God never does. That's the beauty. And when we're pushing ourselves and thinking, no, I always need to do more, I can't rest, it's a sign, we actually think the world depends upon us and God is absent.

 

Sabbath. This doesn't have to be about legalism, but just this beautiful way in which God made us in this one-in-seven rhythm of taking a day of genuine rest, of worship, of connecting with people, of reconnecting with our humanity and with the earth. [00:40:25] I actually in the book gives some ideas of different practices that I think we can implement in our lives that will give us a healthier view of our humanity and what it means to be a creature and to be finite.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. We've previously done a few episodes specifically on Sabbath. I love that topic.

 

Kelly Kapic: Oh, good.

 

Laura Dugger: I'll definitely link to those in the show notes. But then I'd also love to know, Kelly, through these decades of curiosity and putting everything together in this book, do you have a favorite takeaway that you've learned from this process? Then how has it personally changed your life?

 

Kelly Kapic: For me, a lot has been really leaning into this idea of healthy dependence, of humility, and learning to genuinely not lie to other people, not manipulate people, but genuinely learn to celebrate other people's gifts, what they bring. The fact is we are dependent. [00:41:26] And the fact that we ignore it hurts us in those relationships.

 

It's one of those beautiful things when parents... when a child gets old enough and they start to say, thank you, mom, thank you, dad. And it's one of those signs of immaturity and a problem when the kids never recognize and express gratitude. But that's in all kinds of things. Thanking the people at the grocery store, thanking your colleagues, thanking... We are dependent on people all the time, but we don't recognize it, so we don't think of it that way. 

 

Anyways, just kind of being more holistic, being more grounded, being able to really delight in other people and recognize and see them. To be seen is a big deal. I want to be seen. I know other people want to be seen. We don't put it that way. But it's amazing how transformative that can be.

 

Laura Dugger: And if this really struck a chord with someone, where would you direct us all to learn more from you after today's conversation?

 

Kelly Kapic: Oh, thanks. [00:42:26] On this particular topic, the book, You're Only Human, which is an exploration of this kind of thinking through what does it mean? So the book is You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News. But I'm actually not on social media. So sadly.

 

Covenant College, where I teach, has a page for me. So that's where people can click in when they ask me to come speak and that kind of thing. But I'm not out there. For your readers, to be honest, I would encourage them to consider reading You're Only Human or the book Embodied Hope, which is a slow reflection on pain and suffering. Those might be the two that would most resonate with your audience.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for that direction.

 

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, you've got it.

 

Laura Dugger: And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce.

 

Kelly Kapic: I love that name. It's hilarious.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, Kelly, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:43:24] 

 

Kelly Kapic: I think, honestly, my answer is probably quiet, learning to be silent and learning to pray in a slower way. I'm a Presbyterian. Is there really a Holy Spirit that's still acting? And the surprise is, yes, there is. And to be present and quiet with God rather than just filling that time up with God with words always, for me has been transformative and really helpful. And God bring people to mind that you want me to pray for and bring things to mind that you want to change in me. And not constantly filling up immediately with words and seeing what God does has been an example of His grace in my life. That's been really helpful. So maybe that might help some of your listeners.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, Kelly, you are very kind and thoughtful, both in your responses to these questions today, but even in the words that you've published in your book and our email correspondences as we were scheduling this interview. [00:44:28] So thank you for bringing this message forward for all of us to benefit from and thank you for being my guest.

 

Kelly Kapic: Oh, it's been great, Laura. Thanks so much. I hope this podcast and your other work continues to flourish. This is great.

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:45:29] 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:46:33] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:47:34] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

198 Divine Productivity with Matt Perman

198. Divine Productivity with Matt Perman

 

“Our people must learn to do good deeds to meet necessary demands [whatever the occasion may require], so that they will not be unproductive.”

‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭AMP‬‬

 

**Transcription Below**

 

“For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.”

‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:5-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

Matt Perman is author of the best-selling book What’s Best Next: How the Gospel Transforms the Way You Get Things Done and is a frequent speaker on leadership, work, and theology from a gospel-centered perspective. He has worked at Desiring God Ministries as director of strategy and The King’s College NYC as director of career development. Currently he is a manager of strategy at Bed Bath & Beyond. He received his M.Div. in biblical and theological studies from Southern Seminary and lives in New York City. He blogs at whatsbestnext.com. 

 

Questions we discuss:

1. What exactly does God have to say about productivity and why do you think He cares about it?
2. You teach is "Productivity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit." Will you say more about that?
3. How do we recognize if we've gone too far focusing only on productivity?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription **

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGm.com. 

 

My guest for today is Matt Perman. Matt has been writing about gospel-driven productivity for many years, and he's going to share more about productivity as a fruit of the Spirit. He's also going to share unexpected lessons about kindness and generosity and how they relate to bringing God glory. 

 

Much of this conversation is based on his book, What's Best Next: How the Gospel Transforms the Way You Get Things Done. [00:01:18] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matt.

 

Matt Perman: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by sharing a bit about yourself and your current phase of life?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. I grew up in a Christian home, which was wonderful. My parents, they just had a Bible on the coffee table in the living room, so I'd dip into it every once in a while out of curiosity. I kind of appreciated. It was kind of a low-pressure environment in terms of faith. You know, it was recognized, these things are true, these are things we should believe, but there wasn't pressure put on us. I actually responded very well to that.

 

So I came to faith early, had some ups and downs, but really started taking my faith seriously in college. I got involved in some great Christian ministries at the secular college that I went to, and so that was a wonderful experience. [00:02:18] 

 

And then I worked for a well-known pastor and author, John Piper, after college for many years, running the web department in strategy. Now I am in a totally new stage of life. I'm living in New York City, and I am working at a Fortune 500 company, and having a blast seeing how all of these productivity practices apply in the corporate world, and how maybe you need to customize them a bit sometimes. But really what I'm finding is, wow, they also work in this corporate business environment as well as regular life and the nonprofits that I've worked in previously.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And that is fascinating. Such different areas of life, but that it all applies. You have studied and written about biblical productivity for years, so what exactly does God have to say about productivity, and why do you think He cares about it? [00:03:19] 

 

Matt Perman: It's interesting. He does have a lot to say about productivity. It's fascinating. When I first started working on the book, I got some pushback from people. They were like, That's not very spiritual, and I thought, well, what are you talking about? God invented all of life. As Abraham Kuyper said, Jesus owns every square inch of this world. Every area of life is something He is sovereign over. 

 

So He cares about productivity because He created a world in which we need to be productive, first of all. I didn't come up with this idea that we need to eat food, we need to work in order to be able to make a living and have enough food to eat and shelter and all of this. But there's two really big biblical themes that come into play. 

 

First, there is teaching that God expects us to get a return on our lives, which is fascinating. That's not a monetary return. It's possible for some people that could be part of it, but it's a return of doing good. [00:04:21] We see this in the parable of the talents, for example, where each of the three people are given a different amount, and two of them go back and they get a return, and the third comes back and says, "I was afraid, I buried it in the sand." And that one gets rebuked.

 

The point is, God has given us resources, gifts, talents, amazing things, and we are to put those things to use. Not to make as much money as possible for ourselves, but to bring blessing to others, to make life better for others. And that's the biblical theme on productivity.

 

Then productivity practices help us do that better. Because the fact is, we're in a world with limited resources, so we have to make trade-off decisions. There are certain actions that are going to have a higher output than other actions. And productivity is about determining what those are and then doing them in the most efficient way possible so that we can get the best output from what we do. [00:05:26] 

 

Again, the purpose of that output is not for just our own enrichment or our own advancement. It's for the benefit of other people. And that's something that's very unique about a Christian perspective. Not that non-Christians never take that perspective, but it is really at the core of a Christian perspective on productivity.

 

Laura Dugger: Could you just give a few personal examples of how you do this, either in work or in life outside of work?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. In work, I do come with a mindset of, how do I make the most of my time? And I keep lists. I keep all sorts of lists. Some of this is I'm just doing what gives me the ability to accomplish my job well. So if other people have different approaches, that's fine too. Because I think there can be different productivity styles. 

 

But if I get a big project, I will brainstorm all the tasks that are going to be involved. [00:06:27] You can't know them all in advance, but to the best I can. And then I organize them into logical groupings. And I get this good list at the beginning of the project and I update it as the project goes along and things change on it. But that list really helps me make sure nothing gets overlooked and it helps me go about the work in an orderly fashion. So I find that really helpful. 

 

Outside of work, part of productivity, it's not just about efficiency. It's also just finding cool ways to help people and innovation and doing things unconventionally. I think it's pretty neat to find ways to help others, especially the global poor, in ways that would not have been possible before the growth of technology. 

 

For example, even like lending to entrepreneurs in the developing world through Kiva, I think that is a productivity practice because that's something that you couldn't have done even 20 years ago. [00:07:27] You have no efficient way to get that money to them. But now because of the networks that Kiva has developed and their website where you can identify entrepreneurs and choose which one you're going to lend to, you have the ability to make a difference in Nigeria or Cameroon, helping someone buy a goat or a cow or whatever it is so that they can make a better living and grow their own entrepreneurial endeavor and be more productive themselves. So you can help others be more productive through these creative, amazing tools that were not even possible 20 years ago.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. Thank you for sharing examples. I feel like that gives us a picture in our minds or something to grab onto. But if we go back to big picture, how do you put this all together and boil it down to define gospel-driven productivity?

 

Matt Perman: So this is important. One of the big passages in the New Testament on productivity is, of course, Ephesians 5:15-17. [00:08:33] The whole context of chapter 5 is really important. But it's right there where Paul tells us to make the most of the time because the days are evil. That is a helpful definition of productivity, making the most of the time. 

 

The question is making the most of the time to do what? There's always a purpose in anything that we do, including our productivity. So at the heart of gospel-driven productivity is two things. First, you have a purpose, which is something greater than yourself. It is the glory of God. 

 

And if we ask what glorifies God, one of the biggest things that glorifies Him is doing good for other people in His name. That can be spiritual good, but it can also be material good. It can be emotional good, so emotional support to people. It can be relational good — being a friend, being an advocate, doing good for people in all dimensions of the human experience. And being motivated by a desire to see God glorified and other people benefited. So the motives here are really important. [00:09:49] 

 

There are some systems of thought where they say intentions don't matter, what matters is results. And we know what road is paved with good intentions. and they kind of minimize good intentions. I don't believe that good intentions take the place. If your actions are getting bad results and hurting people, having good intentions does not make up for that. So I'm not saying intentions are all that matter. We also have to make sure that we are acting with competence and getting good results. But intentions do matter. That is part of virtue. And God cares about the heart. So He wants us to have a certain motivation in what we do.

 

So with gospel-driven productivity, I try to make that primary. And that's why I talk a lot about the why we should be productive and so forth. And then within that framework of our hearts and minds, then use cool tools and tactics to get your work done faster with less energy and in less time. [00:10:53] Use all that stuff. 

 

There's a bunch of great secular books out there on productivity. Learn from them because in common grace, God has blessed the world with all sorts of wisdom. It doesn't just come from Christians because God is good to all people, at least in the common sense, in the good sense. And then there's also saving grace and special revelation in Scripture. But learn from common grace and use every helpful tip that you can find to get more done for the glory of God.

 

Laura Dugger: One of those books, obviously, that I would recommend is your first one, What's Best Next. In the foreword to that book, there are some unexpected quotes that are highlighted that I just love for you to explain. So first you write, "Gospel-driven productivity is about bringing the gospel to all nations." So can you say more about that? [00:11:57] 

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. I think it's important that we see our productivity in the context of God's plan for the whole Christian life. One of the things that God wants us to be doing is evangelism and missions. In fact, I would say one of the purposes of our productivity is to help reach the nations better with the gospel because there are still... I forget the exact numbers, but it's something like a billion people who still do not have good access to the gospel. 

 

We need to be taking action to address that. I read a great, in many ways, productivity book years ago before I wrote What's Best Next called The 4-Hour Workweek. It's such a helpful book. And it's written in such a fun way and gives all these tools. But the purpose is basically to get your work done in four hours so you can do whatever you want with the rest of your time. [00:12:59] 

 

And I thought, What if we kind of took that concept, because I think there's something good about that, but tweaked it, and instead of doing what you want with the time you free up, you are investing it in God's purposes and in serving others. And missions is one of those purposes. 

 

Now, Tim Ferriss, he's the author of the book. To be fair, later in the book, he does talk about service later on. So it's not like he ignores that and leaves that behind. But we can bring an even richer definition to that as Christians. 

 

One of the things that God wants us to do is reach the nations with the gospel. So there are two ways productivity practices can help you with that. First, they can help you free up more time so that you get your work done faster. And then in your home life, you get your stuff at home done faster. And now you got more time. What are you going to do with that? Are you going to watch Netflix? No, at least not usually. [00:13:59] Find ways to help in the cause of the great commission with the time that you freed up from your good productivity practices.

 

Second, I was really excited as the book was released that a lot of humanitarian organizations and missions organizations, people working at them, were being helped by the book. We're reading the book and being helped by it, like Food for the Hungry based in Arizona and other places. Even though their primary focus is meeting physical needs, they also have a gospel focus and do it in Jesus' name and do evangelism.

 

This is one of the purposes in my book. I wanted to help people that are working for global poverty relief and world missions. I wanted to help them do their jobs better, do their jobs more effectively so they can help more people, and ideally, maybe not get burned out by having a manageable work-life balance and being able to get more return out of the effort and energy that they put in. [00:15:02] 

 

So that's the second way gospel-driven productivity is about bringing the gospel to all nations. It can help those who are directly involved in that work do that work better and reach more people and get through challenges and obstacles that are standing in their way.

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:15:20] <music>

 

Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.

 

If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. 

 

Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Leman's". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.

 

I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business.

 

Learn more at their website LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for "Sam Leman Eureka". You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

[00:16:43] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Another point you teach on is — I'll just quote it here — "Productivity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit." So Matt, will you just say a little bit more about that?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, absolutely. I thought hard about productivity and the biblical connections, especially because of these people saying, Hey, this isn't spiritual. What are you doing?" I had this sense early on productivity is connected to the biblical mandate of good works. So I did a lot of study on what the Bible teaches about good works, and then that's very much related to love.

 

In Jonathan Edwards' great sermon series on 1 Corinthians 13 called Charity and Its Fruit, it's funny that passage is often read at weddings, but really that is a charter for the Christian life and for productivity because it's all about love. He has a series of sermons and it's great. He breaks down the passage. And of course, as we know in there, Paul tells us what love is and describes it. [00:17:49] 

 

One of the things he says is love is kind. And I dug into that meaning of kindness. And kindness, it's not just being nice or being pleasant. It means a disposition to do good for others freely and abundantly. That's the meaning of kindness. And I was like, "Well, that's what I mean by productivity because that's our aim in our productive actions is to bring benefit to other people. So productivity and kindness are really overlapping concepts. 

 

Of course, then over in Galatians, where Paul gives us the fruit of the spirit, kindness is one of the fruits that he lists. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. So when we understand productivity in the right way, that it's about doing good for others, that is being kind, then immediately we see, Hey, it is a fruit of the spirit. 

 

Now, crucial to this is recognizing what I've been saying all along is that the purpose is doing good. It's not necessarily monetary gain or anything like that. [00:18:51] It's just getting greater output from the same input or less input. And that output is the type of thing that benefits others and helps them have their needs met and grow closer to God.

 

Laura Dugger: That makes so much sense, especially when we think about being on the receiving end. The first thing that comes to mind is we moved homes in 2022, just moved across town, but the neighbors came around us and offered meals at different times. And I remember some of them were also in busy seasons like us. They all have young children at home. I thought about this specifically, wow, they did not choose to use their time to veg out and watch Netflix. They structured their day in order to bless our family as well, make extra food, and it helped us so much in a time of need.

 

So just to put skin on everything that you were sharing, that makes so much sense. [00:19:50] And we're so appreciative for people who live this way. I love that definition of kindness.

 

Matt Perman: That is a fantastic example. Yes, that is productivity in action right there.

 

Laura Dugger: Will you also elaborate on why you say on page 95, quote, "Generosity is also the best way to be productive in this life," end quote.

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. That also ties in with the key part of what I mean by gospel-driven productivity, which I forgot to mention. Because if our productivity is going to be gospel-centered, then we have to think about not just our motive as we really do, which I talked about earlier, but also our manner. The actions we take we need them to be done in a way that reflects God and reflects the gospel.

 

So if we think of the gospel, what attributes of God does the gospel especially manifest? And of course, love, sacrifice, concern for us, and generosity. [00:20:55] One of the pastors at my church when I was growing up said, God always gives more than enough. God is a very generous God. And we see that in the cross. He's willing to give of His own Son to meet our needs, bring us back into a relationship with Him. He's very generous. 

 

And if we look at Jesus throughout the gospels, obviously sometimes He's very direct with people, that can be kind, but He's also very gracious. He hung out with tax collectors and sinners. People were attracted to Him. Jesus has a gracious demeanor. And we see this reflected in Paul as well. I think Paul is a great example of Jesus, as well as the other apostles were as well. One of the things that stands out about Paul is how gracious he is with people. 

 

So part of being productive is letting everything we do be infused with grace, which means especially treating people well. A lot of people, when they think of productivity, they're thinking only of our individual actions, like drive, discipline, initiative, perseverance, and those sorts of things. [00:22:04] And that's true. That's very important. 

 

But one of my aims in the book was to broaden our concept of productivity and realize there's not just these individual drivers of productivity. We also have to recognize there are social drivers of productivity. That's how we relate to other people, because certain ways of relating to other people are going to be more effective or less effective, as well as be more accurate reflections of God or less accurate reflections of God. And we treat people well, which means especially treat them in a way that's gracious. We're going to be reflecting God accurately.

 

Ironically, this also will have better results for us most of the time, not always, but better results for us because people tend to want to collaborate and partner with those who are kind and gracious and treat them well. Whereas if you are rough with people and rude, a lot of times people are not going to want to cooperate with you. So it's going to be harder to get things done. It's going to take longer. You're going to have more resistance. Well, that's not productive. [00:23:07] 

 

Ironically, not only is generosity the right thing to do, it also tends to get better results for you. Of course, that's part of the meaning of productivity. You get better results with less effort if you treat people well. So we need to let generosity infuse the way we treat and interact with everybody. That is a key part of what it means to really act according to gospel-driven productivity.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it because what I'm hearing is that it's great to be ambitious. And the "so that" is so that we can love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. And you're making the distinction, not selfish ambition, but it is great to be ambitious and use that to love others well.

 

Matt Perman: Yes. Ambition for others is a crucial and beautiful thing.

 

Laura Dugger: How can we be assured that our productivity or our efforts are eternally fruitful? [00:24:10] 

 

Matt Perman: It's really important here to have this broader definition of productivity that I'm talking about. It's not just more money, certainly not even chiefly more money. It's not more leisure time. It's not just, hey, my life is going better. I have more peace of mind. There is this other focus. It is for others, not selfish. 

 

Then this motivation, not only for the good of others but for the glory of God so that they would find their needs fully met in God. This motive is a big piece of it. I mean, it really is because God looks at the heart. We only have so much control over the outcomes of our work. Sometimes almost no control. Sometimes we have a measure of control. But we never have total control over the outcomes.

 

I like how Martin Luther would put it and so many other Christians since then. Work your hardest and leave the results to God. So don't measure your productivity by what you see. [00:25:12] God is the one, you know, in terms of eternal productivity, He's the one who knows all of that.

 

The most obscure person who no one has ever heard of might actually be one of the most productive people on the planet because they're doing incredible things for the glory of God. They might not be well-known things, they might not have status or anything like that, but they're doing exactly what God wants them to do and nobody knows about it. So we can't measure based on human terms necessarily.

 

At the same time, if the things you're doing just persistently get no results, you've got to change your strategy. The point there is adjust because you're trying to add. The point is to help people, not just feel good about yourself because I'm trying.

 

So if you're not getting results that does tell you you should probably adapt, make some changes. But nonetheless, don't fret over what's not in your control. So you act with good motives, according to the best that you know, and you leave the results to God. [00:26:11] 

 

And you have this broader definition of productivity that it is about benefiting people and helping people come to know Him better, not about your own personal peace and affluence. Then if you focus your actions on the things that God values, so building relationships, meeting the needs of the people in your path, especially if they are oppressed and marginalized, helping people come to know Him better or see Him more clearly, being willing to be bold but tactful, these types of things are the productive things.

 

So if you do them from faith out in reliance on Christ, so He's working through you and you have the purpose of his glory rather than your own, you will be acting in ways that are eternally productive. So as we see here, making sure we're eternally productive doesn't mean being the time nut who schedules every minute of his day. [00:27:13] Unless you really thrive doing that. I think I've met one person who does. I don't think anyone else. 

 

But don't come up with these artificial standards of things that seem productive, but really are not like over-scheduling yourself or trying to over-control yourself. That's not necessary. That's not what it's about. You got to maintain a measure of freedom and spontaneity in everything.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, I'd love to press in a little bit more to that probably because I'm feeling a little convicted with that last point. But as a mom of four young kids serving our family and trying to do some work on the side, I would love to know what is your encouragement for scheduling margin so that that spontaneity can still happen.

 

Matt Perman: Yeah, Marge, especially with, you know, four young kids that can get very, very difficult. John Piper said this thing long ago in a sermon, that the fruit of spontaneity grows in the garden of discipline. [00:28:13] 

 

So having certain discipline routines, like with the kids and with your own devotional time and things like that. And then with young kids, a lot of times, you know, they're going to almost be taking up almost all of your time. But you can have even some disciplined routines that allow spontaneity. I mean, even things like — this is interesting — having meals together as a family is a type of combination of discipline and spontaneity. 

 

The discipline is, you know, you're cooking dinner, you're sitting down and you're eating together. And sometimes that might be chaotic. But during that time together, there's a lot of spontaneity. You've created a forum in which the family is freely interacting and maybe talking about things or whatever. So you have spontaneity in there as well.

 

Then permission to take time for yourself. I think a lot of people these days they're going overboard on self-care. [00:29:14] I think self-care is a good thing and all of that. But they talk as if the essence of virtue is attending to our own needs and our own self-care. And it's not. The definition of virtue is literally the opposite of that. 

 

Of course, we have to do it in a sustainable way. So we have to take time. And Jesus did this time for ourselves in time where the pressure's off as much as possible. So giving ourselves permission to do that.

 

Then it can be hard to find ways to do that. That can be one of the biggest challenges with young kids, which can look like definitely partnership, like each spouse helping free up the other to take time, whatever type of break they need, things like that. Getting up extra early, although that's tiring. Or after you get the kids down, having some time to yourself. It truly is a big challenge when the kids are young. There's no question about that. [00:30:13] 

 

So just letting the pressure be off, even about being perfect and having everything done, even up to maybe your very legitimate, ordinary standards. Sometimes I let even my desk at work get a bit out of control. Or like if I'm working on a writing project or something, I don't always have everything neat and stuff because I know how to get things back in order when I want to, when it's time. But I'm taking the time I would have spent keeping things in order in order to invest it in other ways. And that's okay. 

 

So lowering our standards about certain things in order to give our focus where it's really being called for or where we're really being pressed over is definitely okay.

 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful, Matt. Thank you for that. 

 

I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work. And we appreciate each of you so very much. [00:31:13] If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

 

How would you say that we can recognize if we've gone too far and started to focus only on productivity?

 

Matt Perman: I think it was David Allen who said too controlled is out of control. You know, there are several different ways focusing only on productivity can manifest itself. Here's just a small way, which I think we all can relate to. You get to the end of the day and you're like, Man, I did not get done what I wanted to get done today. I only got half the stuff on my list crossed off or maybe only one thing on them. Or I had planned to get a whole lot more done and be in a totally different spot at the end of the day, and you're not there. [00:32:17] 

 

Give yourself grace. Don't beat yourself up over that. Don't feel like, man, I'm lost, I've missed out now because I'm behind on my plans. It's okay because probably the original plan wasn't realistic and surprises happen and all of that. So giving ourselves grace. Not only showing grace to others, but giving ourselves grace is important. And if you're not giving yourself grace, then that can be a sign of you're focusing only on productivity or focusing on it too much. 

 

Then another sign that we might be focusing only on productivity is if we're only looking at results and not the also improving the capacity to get the results. Stephen Covey talks about there's two things you have to care about productivity. There is the productivity itself, the results, but also the productive capacity. That's the ability to produce.

 

Sometimes we get really focused on the production and then the ability to produce declines. [00:33:18] A clear example, this would be if you never take your car in for an oil change because you don't want to take the time to do that or you're too busy with this, well, eventually your car is going to have some problems. So you have to take that time out to get the oil changed to maintain the productive capacity of your car. 

 

Also with us ourselves, we've got to take the time to rest. We've got to take the time away to recharge. We've got to allow spontaneous things that come up to change our plans, change our schedule. All those things, even though they might not feel productive at the time, they actually are productive because they help preserve our energy and our ability to keep producing. They keep us in a happy frame of mind, in a good mindset.

 

Then the other way that we might be over-focusing on productivity is that we just have these narrow definitions like, how much money am I making? [00:34:17] Well, you try to work so fast that it takes all the joy out of it. It's not just about getting more done. It's about getting more done in a way that is satisfying. And sometimes that might be going slower. So recognizing this balance between speed and satisfaction, I think is also a very important thing. It's not always about speed.

 

Laura Dugger: We know that good works do not offer us salvation. They can't. But good works are vital to a vibrant faith life. So can you just define good works?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah. I define good works as anything done in faith. So an act of love done for the glory of God and to meet the needs of other people. That's what good work is. And what is really important to recognize is, I think a lot of us have kind of a reduced notion of good works. We think they are rare and special things like volunteering at a soup kitchen. [00:35:24] 

 

Or when I was growing up, I was in the Boy Scouts for a little bit. And if you make your bed, do this stuff, you get a badge. So you can think of good works as just those things. Or you think of them as extraordinary things, going over to Africa to do missions work as a good work. 

 

All those things are good works. But the biblical conception is the good works are not just rare and special things we do once in a while. Actually, we can be doing good works all day long. Everything we do to meet needs of other people and glorify God is a good work. And that just radically transforms your life.

 

Our jobs are one of the biggest arenas in which we do good works, because the point of a job is to meet needs, to meet them profitably because you're doing it for a paycheck, but you're meeting needs in order to get that paycheck. [00:36:27] So you see your work as an avenue for helping people, as well as making a living. 

 

And you do the work at your job with that motive, actually wanting to help people and finding ways to do it, to do your work such that it will be maximally helpful to people and not just the minimum to get by and still get your paycheck.

 

Your work becomes a means of loving your neighbor and it is a good work. So writing emails, creating a meeting agenda, going to that meeting, running the meeting, or just participating in the meeting, even if you feel bored at sometimes, those things are good works. Creating a marketing plan, an engineer designing a bridge, that's a good work. A heart surgeon doing bypass surgery on someone's heart, that is a good work if the surgeon does it for the glory of God and good of that person. 

 

At home, the things you're doing, making dinner for the family, sweeping and vacuuming, which can be constant, getting things organized, all those things are good works because they're meeting the needs of the family. [00:37:29] So this just revolutionizes the Christian life, because we realize all day long is an arena for doing good works and thus for worshiping.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that, worshiping and being useful. What are your thoughts on stewardship?

 

Matt Perman: It helps us put things in the right perspective. I see it as God owns us and owns all of our possessions, and we are stewards of ourselves and our possessions, which means we manage them not for our own sakes, ultimately, but for Christ's sake, ultimately. So it ties in nicely to the concept of productivity, where we are also acting for the sake of Christ and not ourselves.

 

As a steward, it means you want to use your resources in the way that the one you're stewarding for would approve of. So you need to know what He wants, how He wants you to be using your resources. I think He wants you to use them in a gospel-driven way, in ways that reflect generosity and so forth. [00:38:38] 

 

And what's so, I think, really cool is sometimes the concept of stewardship, like there's this concept in leadership, in secular leadership theory, called something like... I forget the exact name, but it's something like stewardship leadership. The meaning there is just maintain the status quo. But that's not what God wants out of our stewardship.

 

It's not just preserve, make sure you don't lose anything, like the third guy in the parable of the talents, who said, Here you have back what you gave me, but I didn't put it to work because I was afraid I'd lose it, and you'd get mad at me. Well, Jesus rebukes that person for not putting his resource to work, because He wants us to get a return on what He's given us. 

 

And so we need to see that the purpose of our stewardship is to increase the amount of good in the world through the way we manage the resources God has given us, finances, and I would see stewardship as a broader concept of everything, finances, talent, your time. So in many ways, it becomes an overlapping concept with productivity. [00:39:50] 

 

Laura Dugger: And then in light of stewardship, do you have any biblical theology on leisure and television and screen time?

 

Matt Perman: Well, definitely. I think that's very important. There's this great book by Leland Ryken called Redeeming the Time: A Christian Approach to Work and Leisure. So it's a book on work, but he said, wait, I can't write about work without equally writing about leisure. And that's kind of rare, because there aren't a lot of Christian books on leisure. But I read this years ago, and it was so helpful.

 

So he made the case, we need to have a theology of work, but we also need to have a theology of leisure. So I developed my theology of leisure largely in alignment with that book. And he was drawing from the Puritans and great Christian thinkers of the past.

 

One of the key pillars of a good theology of leisure is recognizing that leisure is good, and it's good in itself. It doesn't exist just for the sake of making it possible to do more work. It is good in its own right. [00:40:51] And so what this means is, when you take time for leisure, you don't have to justify it by the fact that it'll help you get more work done. It's just intrinsically good in itself. 

 

Then, of course, there's different forms of leisure. Leisure for the worship of God, there's leisure for time with family and stuff. And then there is a component of recharge. Obviously, that happens. But you don't need to justify leisure by the fact that it will enable you to get back to work at a higher level of concentration and energy. 

 

Then coming into this, something like television. John Piper, who I worked with so long, he always says, Turn off the TV. He doesn't even have a TV. Sometimes I'm just so tired, I just want to watch TV. So I do watch TV sometimes. I think it's acceptable. I think there's a place for that. Ironically, I think studies show TV actually doesn't relax you very much like we think it does. [00:41:54] But I think it's okay. I think there's a place for it. It absolutely can be overdone. 

 

But I look at things like television and screen time as moderation, not to feel guilty about. And there are some cool movies to watch and cool TV series to watch. The Chosen. I've been really enjoying that. I find it to be a meaningful show. And the actor who plays Jesus, I think he does a great job and really embodies grace and love for other people. 

 

So I think we can get a small glimpse of Jesus a little bit from watching The Chosen. I mean, it's very small. I think the Gospels are better than watching any performance of the Gospels or of Jesus. But that's an example of TV redeemed well, where there's just a movie that you like. It's part of fun. And fun is a legitimate thing and a good thing.

 

But ideally, you want to be doing the type of leisure that can legitimately be called recreation, the meaning there recreation. [00:42:59] So things that genuinely recharge you, not necessarily for more work, but just to recharge you. So relational things.

 

The ancients felt that conversation was the best use of leisure. And I agree with them. So yes, I see a place for television and screen time. But I think the best use of leisure is conversation and being the type of people that are able to carry on fascinating, meaningful conversations with others. I think that is one of the best things you can do with your leisure time.

 

Laura Dugger: Amen to that. I love that point. Do you have any recommendations for ways that we can expand our capacity or any examples of really practical application of how you live this out or you've heard other people live this out well?

 

Matt Perman: Yeah. So to expand our capacity, I think that visualization is a helpful practice. [00:44:04] Just meaning picturing yourself doing things. Nothing new age about it or anything like that. In terms of like a challenging work activity that's coming up or project or anything coming up, it's going to be hard to do. Picturing yourself doing it.

 

And then a lot of times you identify some quicker ways to do it in advance. And then you go in and like you're already ahead of the game. So thinking ahead and seeing yourself doing things in advance is a really helpful practice.

 

I'm starting to try to tie in things more like positive self-talk. So talking graciously to ourselves. That can be the concept of self-talk can be taken off in kind of an odd psychological direction. But it doesn't have to be. Martin Lloyd-Jones talked about a lot of times we're just listening to ourselves. We need to preach to ourselves. And we need to talk to ourselves as people who are valuable to God because we are. That's true. So instead of having negative self-talk, "Oh, I'm so bad at this. I'm terrible at this. I'm etc., etc., etc.," positive self-talk. [00:45:23] 

 

Don't talk to yourself the way you wouldn't want someone to talk to you or the way you would never talk to anyone else. Talk to yourself the way you know you should talk to other people because you are also a person. 

 

And then just basic things like... it is helpful to get up early to carve out some time to prepare for the day, get individual tasks done. I have traditionally been a night person. In college, I usually stayed up till two, but I'm kind of transitioning. I've been transitioning probably over the last 10 years or so. Now I really like early mornings. If you're a night person, you can use a couple hours late at night. If you're a morning person, a couple hours early in the morning. But that really is useful. That is very useful. And right now what I'm doing with that time is getting extra reading done.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. And then even thinking of your calendar, are there really specific practices that you use? And are you more digital or paper? [00:46:27] 

 

Matt Perman: So digital with my calendar and to-do lists and all of that. I still find... this is one of my most helpful practices for 15 years now, longer probably. An hour a day at the start of your work, whatever your work is, getting up to date on email and just input that has come in. Now that's not the heart of every job. I definitely know that, but it's a component of every job. 

 

Even as a homemaker, there's stuff. I mean, maybe the sink is broke and you're trying to get things set up with a plumber, getting estimates and all of that. You got this paperwork component of just about any type of work in this world. And by paperwork, I mean computer for the most part. And having about an hour of focus time to handle that stuff, the stuff that's changed and happened over the last 24 hours is just really helpful. [00:47:32] 

 

Then for the rest of my day, my job is largely at a computer. I will deal with stuff as it comes up, obviously, and all that. But there's always some stuff where you're like, I can't handle that now. I got to hold off on that. This hour, usually the first hour of work in the morning, that's the time to do all that stuff. So it doesn't keep getting put off. I just find that so helpful. And it's doable. If you think in terms of an hour, it doesn't have to be four hours, just an hour, get as much as you can in that hour.

 

Laura Dugger: That makes sense to then more so maintain it rather than letting it pile up. Matt, if people want to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you direct all of us to go?

 

Matt Perman: Anyone can go to whatsbestnext.com. We'd be excited for you to check that out. I have a blog there. I haven't blogged much recently, but that goes back about 15 years on productivity and related stuff. [00:48:35] 

 

I offer coaching, productivity coaching, speaking events, and some other things. So there's lots of great stuff on that website. You can learn more about the book. The book is also called What's Best Next, and you can pick that up at Amazon. But yeah, check out the website, whatsbestnext.com.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will put a link for that in the episode show notes for today. And you may already be aware our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Matt, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Matt Perman: I love that name. Here's my savvy sauce. Reading for at least one hour every day. Consistency is the key there. That adds up. It's like putting savings into the bank account every single day, except the savings is knowledge.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. That is so well put. [00:49:35] I appreciate all of that knowledge that you have accumulated over time. And the cumulative effect is incredible just to see the overflow that we've all experienced because of your self-discipline in this area. So thank you for sharing all of this with us today, and thank you for being my guest.

 

Matt Perman: You're welcome. Thanks for having me on The Savvy Sauce.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:50:34] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:51:34] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:52:36] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release Discipline Strategies and Managing Mom Guilt with Karen Stubbs

Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline Strategies and Managing Mom Guilt with Karen Stubbs

 

2 Corinthians 7:10 (NIV) “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.“

 

Karen Stubbs is the founder and leader of Birds on a Wire, a ministry designed to equip moms through truth, encouragement and community. She is the author of 3 books, Letters to Moms, Moments with God and Tips on Motherhood.  She has also developed small group curricula for moms that is being used across the United States and in nine countries.  Karen is the wife of Greg Stubbs and they have four grown children. She is passionate about challenging moms to experience motherhood in the way God intended it for them and their families. 

 

Karen’s Website

Karen’s Podcast 

Karen’s Books 

 

Other Podcast Recommended: Heaven in Your Home with Francie Winslow

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

197 Compelling Grace, Forgiveness, Purpose, and Hope in Jesus with Peter Mutabazi

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes thematic material.

 

197. Compelling Grace, Forgiveness, Purpose, and Hope in Jesus with Peter Mutabazi

 

Luke 12:48b (AMP) "From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What details are helpful for us to be aware of for life as a "street kid?"

2. How did the kindness of one stranger change your life?

3. Will you catch us up on the process of coming to America and how it eventually led you to become the difference-maker you are today?

 

Peter Mutabazi is an entrepreneur, an international advocate for children, and the founder of Now I Am Known, a corporation that supplies resources that encourage and affirm children. A single father of one white son and foster dad to many, Mutabazi is a former street kid who has worked for World Vision and the International Committee of the Red Cross, and has appeared on media outlets such as the BBC and the TODAY show. A passionate and popular speaker, he currently lives in Charlotte, North Carolina. Learn more at NowIAmKnown.com.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Zimmerman Builders

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

196 Parenting for the Relationship with Sandra Stanley

196. Parenting for the Relationship with Sandra Stanley

 

Proverbs 27:18 a “He who tends the fig tree will eat its fruit,“

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. Will you share the story of how you and Andy arrived at your overall vision and goal for parenting?

2. How does the “law of the harvest” apply to parenting?

3. Will you share your family's personal "keystone habits" you chose to set in place, rather than creating a long list of rules?

 

Sandra Stanley received her bachelor of science degree from Georgia Tech and master of arts from Dallas Theological Seminary. Sandra has a heart for foster kids and foster families, as she and Andy have been foster parents since 2010. Her ministry passion is promoting foster care in the local church. Much of her time these days is spent working on various writing projects and continuing her involvement with Fostering Together, the foster care initiative of North Point Ministries.

 

North Point Community Church Resources

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

195 Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank

195. Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank

 

Proverbs 27:23 (AMP) "Be diligent to know the condition of your flocks, And pay attention to your herds;"

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What are some things you learned as you researched more about tech use and our children's developing brains and bodies?

2. What led to your initial tech detox in your home and what were the unexpected results?

3. Will you share your five steps to prep for detox?

 

Molly DeFrank is the founder of the online Digital Detox, where she helps free families from their addictions to devices. She has a degree in international relations and worked as a press aide for former California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. These days, she is a stay-at-home mom and foster mom to six kids ages twelve and under.

 

Connect with Molly

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Leman Property Management

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

194 Big-Family Logistics, Peace in Chaos, and Abiding in Christ with Kirsten Watson

194. Big-Family Logistics, Peace in Chaos, and Abiding in Christ with Kirsten Watson

 

Matthew 11:28-30 (NIV) "“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”"

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. What has God taught you through fame and living life in the public eye?

2. If you could give busy women one piece of advice, what would it be and why?

3. What are your best practices for investing in your marriage, your children, and your friendships?

 

Kirsten Watson is a mom of seven and wife of author and retired NFL player Benjamin Watson. After graduating from the University of Georgia with a marketing and Spanish degree, Kirsten worked for a Fortune 500 company and then in the nonprofit sector, aspiring to one day run her own company. Now she’s CEO of a family of nine and the executive editor of MomLife Today. With Benjamin, she founded the One More foundation and together they cohost Why or Why Not with the Watsons. Learn more at thewatsonseven.com or follow Kirsten @_kirstenwatson_.

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”