Special Patreon Re-Release Caring for Ourselves While Caring for Our Kids with Rachel Norman

Special Patreon Re-Release Caring for Ourselves While Caring for Our Kids with Rachel Norman

 

**Transcription Below**

 

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭(AMP‬‬) “The wise woman builds her house [on a foundation of godly precepts, and her household thrives], But the foolish one [who lacks spiritual insight] tears it down with her own hands [by ignoring godly principles].”

 

Questions We Discuss:

 

1. What does it actually look like to take care of ourselves and our kids?
2. What is the number one piece of advice you would give to a mom who feels too stressed to enjoy her life?
3. What are some practical ways moms can enjoy their families, at all ages and stages?

 

Rachel Norman is a mother, Language of ListeningⓇ parent coach, and certified baby and toddler sleep consultant. She is also the founder of A Mother Far From Home, an online community dedicated to helping young mothers create peaceful and enjoyable lives for their families, reaching more than a million readers per year. Rachel resides in DeFuniak Springs, Florida, with her husband, Matthew, and their five young children.

 

Rachel's Website

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:0] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfeastpeoria.com. 

Hey friends, I wanted to share some exciting news with you. Savvy Sauce Charities has officially received our confirmation from the IRS that all donations are tax deductible. I know that we have super generous listeners, so we wanted to let you know that you can now mail your check to Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, IL 61561. Thanks in advance for supporting Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:16] 

And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. I love sharing with you authors and books that I adore, and today it's my guest, Rachel Norman. 

Rachel is the author of a book titled If Mama Ain't Happy: Why Minding Healthy Boundaries Is Good for Your Whole Family. She draws so much life and wisdom from scripture, and during this conversation, she's going to apply it to motherhood to benefit each of us in our parenting journey. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Rachel.

Rachel Norman: Thank you so much for having me. 

Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by telling us a little bit about yourself, and specifically, what happened in your life that made you realize you'd been trying to be the best mom ever by abandoning yourself?

Rachel Norman: Yes. Lovely way to start today, to talk about this. But praise God I can share my story and hope it'll help somebody else. [00:02:19] 

So I am in the Florida Panhandle. That's where I live. I'm a mom of five, had five kids in five years. That wasn't exactly our plan, but these things happen. I met my husband at a sort of ministry, prayer ministry school in the UK, but neither of us lived there, so that's how we ended up — my husband's Australian — moving to Australia, and then we were in America, and then we just kept having kids. 

It got to a point where it wasn't so much the logistics of my life, although that was part of it, but it was just this sense that I just had to do, do, do, do, do for everyone else and totally ignore myself, and that that was the godly good thing for me to do. Obviously, this was subconscious.

I ended up sick. I ended up with cancer, actually. This is not the typical manifestation of extreme stress, although it's becoming more typical in our world now. [00:03:18] It was just a time where I felt like God tapped me on the shoulder. A famous researcher into cancer uses this quote, Chris Wark. So I'm not going to, you know, pilfer it from him, but I'll quote him, that cancer can be God tapping you. Not all types now, of course. 

But for me, mine being a lifestyle type, it can be God tapping you on the shoulder, saying, "The way you are living is killing you." For me, I could just look back and see how I had just, in an effort to be such a good mom, like I knew that my calling was to be a mom. I knew that my heart, this is the most important thing to me, the end.  You know what I mean? It is. It was. It just will be. It is what I feel like I was put on this earth to do.

So I just got all confused and kind of felt like that meant that I just, you know, needed to ignore everything about myself or what I needed, or that anything that I thought I might need to do for myself was selfish. And just went on this kind of, almost sounds crazy when I say it all together, in like a one-minute blur. [00:04:23] 

But I think we can all tend to do this and just get so wrapped up in loving and caring for others that it almost feels like just doing these basic, normal human things are somehow selfish. And then I just had stopped doing them. 

So it was just a big wake-up call for me to realize I had not taken care of myself at all. And now I couldn't even take care of the people that I needed to because I was not well. I'm sorry I went on and on.

Laura Dugger: No, thank you for sharing the reality of that journey. And just so we're not hanging on that right now, is there an update with your cancer journey and are you in remission?

Rachel Norman: Oh, yes. Thank you for asking. Yes. We had caught it very early. And so I've been over three years cancer-free. So praise God for that. Yes.

Laura Dugger: Praise God for sure. So contrary then to abandoning ourselves, what does it actually look like to take care of ourselves and our kids? [00:05:22] 

Rachel Norman: This is a great question. I think this is sort of almost the million-dollar question, you know? I think what it amounts to... I mean, for me, it always comes back to what we think about things, you know. So whatever we've decided in our mind, we kind of go in that direction, if that makes sense. So, for me, this meant deciding, okay, all the kids' needs need to be met. I want to do that and so do my own and I'm going to meet them. It's almost like you just open that up and just deciding, Okay, I'm going to do this now. I'm actually going to take care of myself. Then you start to see what this looks like. 

So this might look like, for example, the kids all want to kind of stay up late, but you're absolutely exhausted. And this looks like saying, actually, no, we're going to respect the bedtime and you're going to go to bed because I need to go to bed. Does that make sense? Instead of like, well, they just don't want to, and then now you've missed out on three hours of sleep and even the next day you have to take three more cups of coffee. You see what I'm saying? [00:06:21] 

So it's kind of in the moment you're looking for a win-win instead of the kids always winning and you always lose. So this is like, okay, well, during the day, maybe you're just totally worn out. And especially this can happen, you know, say you're at home with the kids and they want to go somewhere. I don't know. They want to go to the park. They want to go out here or there. And you actually have a lot of things that need to be done. You really need to do them. 

What can normally happen is our brains like, okay, well, if I stay home they're going to miss out on the fun and then they're going to feel like I'm a fuddy-duddy and I can't ever just let these things go and just be in the moment. And so then this means all the things we needed to get done, don't get done. Now we're feeling all these feelings, right?

A win-win is like, okay, you guys want to go do this. And all of these things, these legitimate adult responsibilities need to be done. There must be some way we can all win. And that might be we do what needs to be done first and then we play. Or it might be, you know, today is a day we do what needs to be done and tomorrow we play. [00:07:18] So it's just thinking. We don't always have to just ignore what needs to be done because these things weigh on us so heavily.

I have this YouTube video on reasons moms struggle to be present and it always hits home. Because it's like, of course, you can't be present at the park for three hours. You've got a whole stack of bills and a whole sink of dishes and you feel bad. You feel like it's almost doing some harm to the kids to do them. Not all moms do, but I don't know if I'm making sense here.

Laura Dugger: I think you're making a ton of sense. And truly it is teaching them relational EQ basically because when they're older, even in their marriages and their friendships, it's not all about either side. And I love how you talk about the win-win. That's great. 

So like you mentioned, just a huge piece of caring for ourselves and our kids is respecting our limits and requirements for sleep. You happen to be a certified sleep training coach. [00:08:20] So what wisdom do you want to share as it relates to that important role of sleep really in all our lives?

Rachel Norman: Oh yeah. I mean, obviously I love this. I was joking with my husband the other day. I mean, I've loved sleeping even since I was a child. But I think for me, one of the biggest things about our boundaries relating to sleep is they're not really as movable as you think.

So the key is, and this is with kids and ourselves, you know, there's a normal range that we all have and most everybody and kids are within that, but you really have to figure out how much sleep you need. And then that's just something that you have to respect. It's not something that you can change necessarily.

Now it could be a time where there's a period of time where you're sleeping far more than normal because maybe healing or maybe there's something kind of emotionally trying relationship issues. These things can make us more tired for a season. But as we begin to get more rested, then if we need a little bit less later, it will show itself. [00:09:23] 

For example, some moms, it's like they stay up really late and then they have to get up early anyway because the kids are going to get up early. So maybe they only get like six hours, but they really need eight. If over time you just continually don't get as much as you need, it just makes you... there's just a lot of bad things that happen when you're exhausted.

I mean, you know, of course, it's linked with mental health issues. There's anxieties or depression with our actual physical health issues because sleep is the way God has made our bodies to regenerate from the day. 

So I think the key there is just to realize that there is a level of self-control that comes with sleep and it's just something that we need to respect, and also with our kids, you know, so that we can be at our best the next day.

But it's just paying attention to your own body and not guilting yourself. You know, a lot of moms, it's like by 9 pm they're so tired but then they feel so guilty because they can't stay up late and they're like, you know, depriving their husbands of that time with them. And so then they... it's just like, Oh, we make it so icky. [00:10:24] You're exhausted. You need to go to sleep. Just sleep. Just go to bed.

Laura Dugger: I love how you point out, there's a correlation between getting adequate sleep and self-control. So if you hang with me for a second, when you said that, it instantly made me think, okay, self-control is one of the fruits of the spirit. So it is produced by the Spirit, but we also can quench the Spirit or help him cultivate that fruit in our lives. Rachel, it seems like a really practical way to not quench the spirit is to do our part where we're being disciplined.

Rachel Norman: Oh, I agree. We don't always have this luxury, but when we're just at a more calm place, we can just sense God's presence more. We can make better decisions.

And whenever we're just exhausted or we're past the point in that state of heightened desperation, it's very hard to make long-term healthy choices for ourselves. I think when we can think of some of these things that God gave us, that He just put in place, and then we can respect those, it can alleviate a lot of guilt. [00:11:32] We are so guilt-ridden. 

And I found personally, I don't know if you've experienced this Laura, but I found that I was so busy guilting and condemning myself that I thought it was conviction from God, but it was not. And so I felt like I was constantly displeasing God if, Oh, I was tired and I need to sleep, or I just need to tell the kids “no”. Or I say, actually, we can't do that because I can't cope. I felt such guilt. And I just thought it was... it was myself. I was literally keeping more burdens on myself. And I just stopped that because that did not have good fruit. 

Like it says in Luke, wisdom is proven right by its fruit. It was very bad fruit of that. And it turned out it was myself. It wasn't even God. God wasn't saying don't sleep, ignore yourself. Just really wasn't.

Laura Dugger: I'm so with you. I experienced so much mom guilt. And it goes in seasons, but I remember one moment of clarity when I was like you, I thought it was conviction, even though the Lord brought me to second Corinthians 7:10 that says, Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. [00:12:45] I think it really was that- 

Rachel Norman: Oh, that's a good word.

Laura Dugger: ... worldly sorrow and more so from the enemy condemning me rather than the Lord's gentle conviction that feels completely different.

Rachel Norman: It does. And it leads nowhere. Once you realize that's happening, you can start to say, Oh, this isn't something that's going to lead anywhere. This is just me stewing over my failures or by perceived failures. Even it can be a cycle we get stuck in. It honestly can. Many moms get stuck in this and it's very debilitating.

Laura Dugger: What if somebody is in a season where there is a newborn or there's some outside circumstance. Maybe they struggle with insomnia daily. What encouragement do you have for that person about prioritizing sleep?

Rachel Norman: Well, I just have a lot of encouragement. Or even if it's not sleep that they're struggling with, but you know, if there's relational issues or sicknesses or you have a child with special needs. There's a lot of things outside of ourselves that are relentless, if I could use that word. [00:13:44] 

My encouragement in this, aside from the basics to take your genuine emotions as you really are to God so that He can comfort you in that is to just wherever you are currently at sort of respect that place in life and just try to live within the boundaries that you can at this time. When I say that, I mean, there are certain times in life we can't carry on like it's normal. Things are not normal. So we have to not do some things that we might normally do. 

And we just got to drop them. And we got to drop the guilt. So this might mean we pare back our family schedule. It might mean we let go of commitments and then we stop feeling like the whole world's going to fall apart if we do that. Because what's actually falling apart is us, not the world. 

I was reading, actually yesterday, in scripture and it was saying human hands can't meet God's needs. Actually, God has no needs. He is the one that keeps us breathing and living. [00:14:44] And I thought, Oh my goodness, how often do us moms actually feel like He needs us or the whole world's going to fall apart? No, we are falling apart. 

So sometimes we just need to say, you know what? I can't control the world and other people might for a season have to handle themselves. Not our little kids. Obviously, we're always handling them. But you know, maybe it's friends or it's commitments or things we're doing at our church or whatever. Sometimes we have to pare back life so dramatically to be able to be okay in this time period. And that's not only okay. That's actually wise. It's a wise thing to do.

Laura Dugger: Okay. And then to elaborate on wisdom, I just love your quote on page eight. You write, "I think happiness may be a natural byproduct of wise living." So can you elaborate on that, Rachel? 

Rachel Norman: Yes. The book is called If Mama Ain't Happy. And that's just kind of the saying if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. [00:15:44] I think most of us would agree. We're not walking around like our goal in life is not to be happy. That doesn't even seem noble. It's not even possible all the time. Right? 

But the more wise decisions that we make, you're just the more we kind of just do what the Bible says and don't do what it doesn't say and act with common sense. This is actually where I feel like we've gone off the rails in this way. We've sort of left common sense, you know, where we don't sleep when we're tired, we don't eat when we're hungry. 

But when we just live in this place of common sense, you were just more at peace. When you're at peace, there's just this sense of contentment. And then some circumstances might come and we're not overly impressed by them. You can kind of get to a place and hopefully everybody doesn't have to do what I did. I kind of got to this place because life got so sort of traumatic that all of these things just fell off never to come back on again. 

The perspective that I had about life so drastically changed that it couldn't unchange. [00:16:44] Things that would have seemed like a problem, I'm like, I'm not even impressed by that problem. It's like, Oh, our sewers leaking and the washing machine broke and the dishwasher broke and all of these things that I'm just... I'm not impressed by these problems.

When we can learn to really just be wise. We ask God for wisdom and He gives it to us. Right? And then not second guess that. I was reading in Job a few months ago and when God is talking to Job and He says, Who gives intuition to the mind or instinct to mind, intuition to the heart? We can learn to, certainly if it doesn't go against scripture, just follow those. 

We've almost been trained, you know, with there's so much out there, so much information, and there's so many different parenting styles. And then in this parenting style, they always do this. We've sort of almost just ignored what our intuition says, ignore what our instinct says, ignore common sense and just like waiting on other people to tell us what to do. And it means that in the moment we don't know what to do and we feel confused. [00:17:44] And then this makes us more stressed.

What do we really need? Like, is this wise? Does it make sense? And then just do it. And the more we live like that, the more areas of our life come into alignment with just being in an order that makes sense, and then the more you're just okay. And then from that place, then you're able to use the gifts God gave you to do the things that are on your heart to do instead of coming from a place of being very much bad and not okay, but forcing yourself to do all these other things because you think that you need to do them.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsors. 

[00:18:20] <music>

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[00:19:25] <music>

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[00:21:27] <music>

Laura Dugger: Well, and Rachel, this is not prescriptive because I'm sure this will look different for every single one of us, but it's also really helpful to have examples. So looking back on those seasons, what were the things that you actually let go of that were gone forever? And then what are a few of those things that the Lord did call you to that you held or carried on even while mothering?

Rachel Norman: I let go of a lot of out-of-the-home activities. I just was like, That's it. We're not doing those. 

I made sure that I was still having some encouragement with some godly friends. But this idea that I always needed to go out and do so, I just dropped a lot of the things that were bringing me outside of the home. 

Now this might look different. As you said, it's not prescriptive. So somebody who is maybe more extroverted, they might need to keep those in to be okay. 

I've always liked things tidy and orderly. I don't want my home environment to be ugly or chaotic because it's where I spend most of my time. And if it is, I just don't feel good. So that's fine. [00:22:26] We have great routines, just simple, tidy routines. We don't have a lot of stuff, that makes it easier. 

But what I dropped was this like... what I used to do is if I would see a mess, I would flip it on myself and be like, I'm a failure at being a housekeeper, you know? So I took these things as a sign that I was like lazy. So I dropped that. It was like the Lord healed me. There must've been something inside that was like, I have to earn, I have to be good enough, I have to do it really work hard all the time or God is upset at me. I dropped that. 

So I know that's not exactly practically what you asked, but that was the biggest thing because then I could now just see a mess and be like, all right, everybody, let's tidy up. And then we tidy up and it's done.

So a lot of this I feel like just does goes back to how we are viewing ourselves, what we really are thinking. So is God sitting here like whacking me? Does this mean I'm a horrible woman because the house is a mess? No. [00:23:19] 

I think a lot of this is just figuring out, you know, I don't know lies we believe or coping strategies we've used since we were a kid. I mean, it's just different for all of us. But I dropped a lot of this self-condemning, critical talk against myself. I was my biggest critic and I was always criticizing myself. And I did it because I thought it was going to make me be a better mom. But it didn't. It was condemning and it meant I honestly had a very hard time hearing from the Lord because I just always thought he was mad at me. 

So honestly, the biggest thing that we can do is first look at what are your commitments? Do these align with what your life is right now? If they don't, drop them. The kids will be okay. The kids will be okay. The kids are going to be okay. They're actually going to be more okay if you're okay. And so the idea that you could, we could run ourselves into the ground and then that's better for the kids is just not true because it's not ever great for the kids if their mother is a shell of herself. [00:24:18] 

Laura Dugger: I just love your interaction with scripture and you weave that throughout your book. So can you share how you think we tend to misinterpret Philippians 2:3, which says, "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves..."?

Rachel Norman: Yes. It's almost like we just think, Oh, that's selfish. That's selfish. That's self. You know, it's a word we kind of throw around. And also for Christian women, it's sort of like our worst nightmare to be selfish. We're like, no, that's horrible. And then we don't even want to see it or don't want to believe that that is true. 

So whenever you look up what actually like selfishness or sport, you know, for your own gain, it is not the sense of just doing basic care for yourself. This is like stepping on somebody on your way up the ladder or kind of cheating to get what you want or manipulating or lying to get things to be how you want them to be.[00:25:18] It's just sort of neglecting those around you so you can focus on your own advancement. This is the sentiment that's in that scripture. 

Like this is not the same thing as taking a bath once every couple of days. You know what I mean? Like we extrapolate that down so deeply that it seems like anything we do that might not make other people in our family happy now seems selfish. And that's a real danger because none of us are happy all the time. And that almost makes our compass our kids emotions. And this is not a plumb line. 

What does it actually mean to be selfish? Does it mean, if, say, to use the example we used earlier, you know, the kids are all kind of begging to go out to the park or whatever and we really have adult responsibilities? Genuinely is it selfish if we say, "Actually I need to pay these bills. I need to make these appointments." Is that really selfish or is that what a responsible grownup would do? See what I mean? [00:26:20] 

We think even things that are just normal are selfish because we're so kind of in everybody's emotions. I mean, I feel like any Bible believer has to realize that our emotions can tell us all manner of things that lead us into sin as well. You know, I might cry because something was good or I might say, actually we can't only eat brownies for dinner. And that might really make the kids mad, but that doesn't mean it was bad?

Of course, we care about our kids' emotions or we wouldn't be tied up in these circles. So of course we're going to emotionally support them and we're going to be there for them. And this isn't selfish. This is just taking care of the things that are our responsibilities to take care of. And if we feel guilty doing the things that we're responsible for, well then we're always going to be miserable. 

Laura Dugger: I have my copy of your book right in front of me. You even list some really helpful questions to think about. So I'm just going to choose a few of these. You say, "Is getting enough rest so that we don't fall asleep at the wheel selfish?" [00:27:20] 

Rachel Norman: And that's true. I'm not even being just exaggerative to make a point. There are many, many moms that are so tired. They're like falling down the stairs, can barely walk down the stairs with their baby, they're falling asleep at the wheel, but they feel guilty trying to teach them how to sleep. I'm like, no, no, you can do this mom.

Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I can't remember after which kid it was, but I remember at a stoplight just thinking, well, if I just close one eye at a time. 

And then just a few other questions. Is having a few free hours a month or maybe even a week selfish? Is having some control over our daily routines and habits selfish? Is requiring our children to occasionally wait while we carry out an adult responsibility selfish?

I just thought those were wonderful to externalize all these things that we may carry in our minds. I know even yesterday we were on a walk, I had a few of our kids with us and we ran into some friends, and I had to keep reminding one of my daughters, "Okay, wait your turn. [00:28:25] It's not your turn. You cannot interrupt." And I felt this inner turmoil of, "Oh, I'm not giving her all my attention right now, but really that's okay.

Rachel Norman: Yeah. She'll get to talk. Yes. Like you feel bad. Like you said, they're not getting my attention. And then I'm like, does this child get a lot of attention? This child gets tons of attention. They're going to be okay this time. They're going to be fine. So right now they can wait. 

It's almost like just carrying the thought through a little bit can help us. The more I sort of ignored myself and dropped everything I was doing all the time to give all of my attention to the kids, the more entitled to anything they wanted at any time they wanted, they became. And that was a hard hit for me because, you know, I didn't want to raise entitled kids. It was like an aha moment. You know, you sometimes have these moments and it's like scales fall off your eyes and you're like, well, look at that.

I was on the phone. It was an important phone call. It was like a medical call. I was like negotiating. It was important. I had come all the way to my office to have some quiet privacy to do this, then one of my kids came open the door, barged in, just started talking over me. [00:29:31] And I was like, "I'm on the phone, baby. Baby. I'm on the phone." Totally ignored me. Just kind of went, and it was like kind of had that Twilight moment. And I was like, Oh my goodness. 

Now, I have trained my kids... Now, of course, we all are responsible for our own actions. Right. But I have in this sort of ecosystem environment, a family life, trained them that it doesn't matter what I'm doing. I will listen to whatever they have to say. And it meant that I ended up never being able to do... I couldn't make this one important phone call. I mean, I literally had to push him out and close the door. 

Now, this child also has some special needs that make it a little bit harder for him to kind of not act compulsively, but then I couldn't unsee it. Then I began to see it day after day, how they just totally acted like nothing I was doing was important because they had something right then that there was a lot of entitlement going on. And me refusing to sort of hold a boundary, that actually I'm doing this right now, I'll be done in five minutes. You know, I don't got to yell. There's not even a need for a stern voice. [00:30:34] It's just, I'm doing this. I'll be with you in a second.

Refusing to do that because I thought it was somehow neglecting them, had actually created a monster. And it took a little bit of time to come back from that. And I'm happy to report we're back from that. And that's not the world I'm living in now. And it's just much lighter and freer. "Nope, sorry, I can't do that right now, babe. Actually, I can't think about two things at once. So give me a minute and we'll talk about it." And they're like, "Okay." It's just actually meant that interpersonally, they can read the cues.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's such a great point of what we miss out on teaching them like reading body language. Again, that self-control. Because even as adults, we may want to interrupt and we still have to practice that restraint. 

So what is the number one piece of advice that you would give to a mom who feels too stressed out right now to enjoy her life?

Rachel Norman: Well, one thing I would probably suggest is to really pull back on all of your input of information. If you're in a really hard spot, I would almost do like an info fast, you know, and just be like, it's just going to be me, God, and life. [00:31:41] Or if you need one person that might mentor you. Because I sometimes think this just overabundance of information confuses us. And I think just bringing your world back, just thinking, Lord, help me to hear what my intuition and my instinct and my common sense is telling me.

Because if that's where you get to, if this is sort of the filter with which you're going to try to get through this season or pull out or make some changes, then every little thing that happens throughout our days, we can filter through that. And I'm assuming any of these normal things we're deciding to do or not do all match scripture, right? So this is why I'm saying, in the moment, what is it you think is right? Just then do that. 

You know, we had to get back to the basics of life. I feel like in generations prior, they had to rely on what they just felt like, okay, well, what do I feel like the Holy Spirit saying? What gives me the most peace? What makes the most sense? This is what I'm going to do. 

And I don't care if culture is not doing that. I actually don't care if culture says it's bad. I don't care what culture says. Culture never led us in the right direction anyway. [00:32:43] We got to somehow separate our family life from this relentless steamroller path that everybody in the world seems to be on that just really seems to lead to misery. We got to get off it and then separate ourselves from it enough that we're not seeing what everybody else is doing. And it's creating more turmoil.

Laura Dugger: Like you said, letting God's peace be our guide. In Proverbs, it says about wisdom, and all her paths are peace. 

Do you love the Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors? That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting the Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win. 

Please email us today at info@TheSavvySauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration. [00:33:46] 

I'm just going to kind of put together a few other quotes that you had just to give people a taste of the wisdom that's scattered throughout your book. One place you say, "In short, we treat babies exactly the opposite of how we treat ourselves." And then two other ones. You say, "Organizing your life so that it doesn't make you crazy is not a luxury. It's a responsibility.

Rachel Norman: Yes, I think if we think about it like that, it's freeing. If you think, oh, wow, it's actually my job to make sure my life doesn't drive me nuts. Yes! It's like you're giving yourself permission.

Laura Dugger: This one may be my favorite, but you're right. "At times, the very hardest things to do are the best for you."

Rachel Norman: Wish it weren't so.

Laura Dugger: Rachel, we had just talked briefly about the guilt that so many experience. So how can moms deal with the massive guilt that influence our inner dialogue and consequently our decisions? [00:34:51] 

Rachel Norman: I mean, the first thing you can really do is just to start to recognize that it's a strategy that you've created at some point that you thought was helping you. So once you realize that the guilt isn't actually necessarily true... Society kind of is acting like guilt and shame are all wrong but I think we're kind of going sideways on that because we actually are made to feel bad for doing things that are wrong.

But it goes sideways when we make ourselves feel bad for doing things that weren't wrong. So even just thinking about you were so tired, you didn't do the dishes before going to bed. You're going to do them in the morning. Not doing the dishes before bed is not a sin. You know what I mean? This is actually not a moral failing.

So these are the type of things that we can now heap guilt on ourselves for. Like, is this even moral? Am I feeling guilty over something that isn't even moral? You know, you got to start to kind of evaluate why. And then this is a little bit will start breaking the power of that guilt over you to where you can just sort of get rid of it and then just deal with the situation at hand, which in this dishes case could be, you know, "I'm really tired. I know I'm going to do the dishes when I wake up. It's okay. That's fine." [00:35:58] And that's it. It doesn't have to be anything. You don't have to feel anything about it. 

So it's recognizing the difference between feeling guilty for something you actually did wrong and just making yourself feel guilty to try to motivate yourself to be good. Once you can sort of separate them out, then you can start to be like, actually, I feel guilty, but this isn't even moral. Like I didn't actually do anything wrong. It loses its power over you a little bit.

Laura Dugger: Then I just have to share one more of your quotes that I think I need to hear this repeatedly, but it kind of ties some of these questions together on page 19, where you write, "If we believe this message that we are only good mothers when our children are happy, then we cannot enforce healthy meals, appropriate bedtimes, reasonable self-care, hygiene routines, or anything that goes against our children's moods."

Rachel Norman: Oh yeah. If our children's moods are our compass, then we're in for a wild rollercoaster ride.[00:36:57] Even we can't even use our own emotions as a guide for our decisions. In some way we do, they inform us, but they can't be our masters. And our kids' emotions certainly can't be our masters. 

I've explained to my kids since they were little, before they even understood it. Mommy loves you so much that I'm always thinking of... I'm thinking of long-term, I want you to have a healthy, happy life, literally all the way until you go be with the Lord. So sometimes I'm going to make choices that in the short period you don't like, because I know that they're good for the whole of your life. You don't always have to give a reason. I don't mean it like that. 

Sometimes it's like, when your kids ask for a reason, it can be like, Okay, I'm not going to change my mind. If you want me to give you the reason so you can try to convince me to do differently, I'm not going to do that. This is what I've chosen, but I'll give you my reason. Because the kids like to know, you know? And so it can be like, the reason I've decided nobody can play Little League, for example, I had a friend at church, I said, how are you? She was perpetually strung out. And she was like, "We're doing great. We said no sports this semester." And I actually got my life back. [00:37:57] 

So in this case, it'd be like, "Okay, this is what we're doing. Here's why. You don't have to like it." Our kids never have to like anything or not like it. We can't control that. But we can say, I know that it's good for all of us. This short-term hiatus is going to be good for all of us. And then this teaches the kids to think laterally, as my father-in-law would say, you know, to take more things into account instead of just what I want right now. So it actually teaches kids so many life skills.

Laura Dugger: And then, as moms, how can we identify when we're playing the martyr?

Rachel Norman: Oh, that's a great question. I think this, the easiest way is to just realize like, okay, do I feel like I never get what I want and I never get what I need? I'm not saying go into a self-pity here. I'm saying recognize when we're feeling that. 

Because what happens is if we ignore all of our needs, they come out sideways. So we think we're not being selfish, but we actually become more selfish because we actually become very resentful. We start to be like, everybody always gets what they want. I never do. [00:39:00] We start to become almost depressed sometimes, like, everything about life stinks. Because when we ignore the things that we need, they do not go away, but they end up kind of exploding out. Or it's like, I'm never going to make the kids clean up because they don't want to. It's ruining their childhood or whatever. And then they complain. So I'm not. You act like you're not going to, and then one day you literally blow up and scream at them because there's a huge mess. You see what I mean? So it comes out anyway. 

So I think like, no, you notice if you're martyring is because you start to feel all these like bitterness, anger, resentment, and all these. These are signaling something's going on. So now, I don't know, pray, get your journal out. Why am I feeling like this? You know, you know why you feel bad if you feel bad. We know it. You know if your life's unmanageable. And I'll say, why is your life crazy? Because I'm always in the car five hours a day, taking everybody everywhere they want to go and I don't want to do it, just to use the example of an over-full schedule. But you know why. It's being honest with ourselves. [00:39:57] 

I noticed that Christian moms we find it very hard to be honest with ourselves. We love going into denial because it makes us feel more spiritual sometimes, instead of going before God in the honest truth of what's actually happening and how we actually feel about it. You're miserable. You're making everybody miserable because you're miserable. And actually we're all suffering because we're all too busy. We got to be honest. And I think this is the main thing that needs to happen and then we just stop martyring ourselves.

Laura Dugger: What are some practical ways that moms can enjoy their families at all the ages and stages?

Rachel Norman: That's a great question. First of all, it's knowing what season we're in based on the circumstances and then it's respecting that. Is this a postpartum season? Is this the kind of first year young baby season? Okay. Well, in order to respect that season, what needs to give? And then let it go. Or what do I need to change to make this season be manageable? Make those changes. [00:40:56] Or as the kids get older, what would help us all be able to have a more peaceful family life? 

You know what the things are. If you just sit down and be honest with yourself, you know what it would be. It might be the kids are a little bit older and they're doing a lot more things outside of the home and you're all enjoying that, but it means that the home isn't really getting taken care of, say for example. So what would really make that be easier? Well, everybody pitched in. Okay. That's just what needs to happen. 

So it's kind of like knowing what season you're in and then truly respecting it and having your life and your choices and your family's routines and schedules reflect what season you're actually in and realizing that life has ebbs and flows and nothing we decide to do now for the next three months means we have to do it forever.

Laura Dugger: This is the last quote that I'll read, but on page 82, after you share a lot of pieces of scripture, you write, "These are just a smattering of commands from God's word. And when we put them all together, they take up a lot of our time. They are also a great reminder of why we needed Jesus in the first place." [00:42:01] So Rachel, for you, what is the role of faith in your day-to-day life, both personally and as a family?

Rachel Norman: I wouldn't be here without the Lord. I mean, that's just the bottom line. Because in my cancer journey, there was some miraculous things that happened. So, to me, I feel like I'm in a bonus life that I don't deserve only because of God. And so if I start to feel like anything pulls me away from Him, to me, that's a massive red flag. 

And I'm not saying I do this perfectly. I might get a couple of steps away or here or there, and then I think, no, I can't do that. That's pulling my heart. It ain't happening. Or if family life feels like it's crazy to where there's no time for the things that are truly important, no, we're not doing those things. Tell it to your therapist later, kids. We're not doing that. That's not happening because I just feel very strongly the call to make the home a sanctuary where there's actual time and space to think about these spiritual, eternal, important things. [00:43:10] 

I'm ruthless about what we're going to spend our family time on. I'm ruthless about what's going to take me away from them. I think in that way, it just feels like we're centered on the flow of life that we have with the Lord. I don't really know how else to say it. It's like we're centered on... we're not going to do the things the Bible says not to do. We're going to try to do the things that it says to do.

This takes up a huge amount of time. And if anything else threatens my ability to do that, I just knock it out. And if I start to feel guilt or I start to feel envy or I start to think I'm not doing X, Y, Z, then I think, does X, Y, Z have eternal value? And if it doesn't, then I don't care. Or maybe I still want to... you know, oh, my friends went to wherever, Disney. Maybe I want to go to Disney. That doesn't have eternal value. Maybe I want to. Fine. But I'm not letting these things consume me. 

I'm not going on some rampage where I'm saving this to be able to take the kids. No, I'm not. I'm focusing on the simple basics of family life. I'm loving the kids, taking care of us all, enriching our own family experiences. [00:44:13] We are talking about God. We're using opportunities when normal things happen. What does Scripture say? We're digging deeper in that. We're preparing our kids for them to just, I don't know, live a victorious life in as they go on. 

And this takes up so much time. I don't even know how other people add in all the stuff they do. But for me, and maybe they have a larger capacity than I do, and that probably is the case, but I think, what is my capacity? I need to live within it in a way that I can still show God to my kids, and I can still commune with God myself, and I can still be at peace enough that I can actually live out what I feel like I'm supposed to do. Anything else is just gotta go, and I don't care. I think that was more than you asked for. I hope that makes sense.

Laura Dugger: Yeah. I think it boils down to a lot of humility. That's really inspiring. Rachel, if we want to learn more from you after this chat, where can we find you online? [00:45:14] 

Rachel Norman: Oh, yeah. A Mother Far From Home is my website, and I have lots of great family routines and all that kind of stuff there. So, amotherfarfromhome.com. I'm also on YouTube and talk a lot about the similar stuff. A Mother Far From Home is my YouTube handle.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And you may be familiar, we're called The Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Rachel Norman: So, I would say my savvy sauce is my ability to make a good routine that means that everything gets done without the stress. So, I feel like this should be all of our savvy sauces, just to make a good routine and habit for ourselves and for our kids that just sort of autopilots the things that need to be done so that we are just more at peace and have more time. That's for sure my shtick.

Laura Dugger: I love it. It reminds me of a quote I heard this week where somebody said, order your home rather than ordering your child. [00:46:21] I think your rhythms and routines that you talk about go along with that.

Rachel Norman: Oh, I love that. I love that. That is so true.

Laura Dugger: Well, Rachel, you've lived such a fascinating life. And just in this conversation, hearing how you've been seeking after the Lord and then hearing how He's drawn near to you was all an encouragement to me today. So, thank you for being my guest.

Rachel Norman: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:47:23] 

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:48:24] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:49:27] 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.