104 Sexual Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma

*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.

 

104. Sexual Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Ephesians 4:2 (NIV) “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.” 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness.  Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb.

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

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Dr. Michael Sytsma, as you may recall, is a certified sex therapist and ordained minister. He also was my professor in graduate school, and I count it a huge blessing to continue learning from him and his contribution to this field.

 

Today, he's going to update us on underlying reasons we are distressed with our spouse when we have differing levels of sexual desire in marriage. 

 

Here's our chat. [00:01:18] 

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Sytsma.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you very much. I'm really honored to be here again.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, all of our listeners have probably met you multiple times on our previous episodes, but will you tell us what you've been up to professionally since our last recorded conversation together?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Sure. A big part of what I do is providing counseling to couples and doing teaching at various graduate schools and to professionals and then to workshops and seminars. 

 

But the unique piece is 15 years ago, I completed my doctoral dissertation on sexual desire discrepancy in married couples and have just been really curious on what's going on with that. It's been 15 years. Is anything different? Is it still the same?

 

So we went back and we re-looked at a lot of that data and asked a bunch of couples again to re-complete the survey, added a few questions, or just re-looking at the subject again. [00:02:19] 

 

Laura Dugger: Then from your findings, what has stayed the same over the years?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, when we start looking at the subject and what we're specifically looking at here is the discrepancy between husbands and wives and how frequently they want to engage sexually. Pretty much all couples, there's a discrepancy in it. And for many couples that causes distress or pain. For a few couples, it doesn't. 

 

But the thing that stayed consistent is it's still a major source of pain or distress if not one of the top major sources of distress for couples. We saw again that only a small number of couples actually are really pretty similar in their sexual desire.

 

So I tell couples if you disagree on how frequently you're going to engage sexually, that makes you normal. That's a primary that couples are going to disagree. For most couples, right around 80%, and this has been validated in cross-cultural studies, the husband tends to have the highest level of sexual drive. [00:03:29] The numbers were a little lower with that. Still, the husbands are the highest drive for most couples. 

 

Then the same thing as we found last time, both husbands and wives are still reporting that they desire sex more frequently than it's actually happening. So whether you're the high-desire spouse or the low-desire spouse, they're pretty consistently saying sex isn't occurring as often as they would like for it to. 

 

So those would be the consistent things that we've seen that showed up again and redoing the data 15 years later.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. I think that last thing you said really stands out. Were couples able to give any explanations why they were not engaging as often as they both wanted to?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: That's actually the question that we want to get couples to. Often when couples, for example, come into my office, the high-desire individual, whether that be the husband or the wife, is pretty frustrated at the low-desire individual because they feel like what they're wanting is being held captive by the lower-desire spouse. [00:04:37] 

 

And when I start asking them how frequently they would actually like to engage versus how frequently they are engaging, it comes out pretty consistent with what we found in the surveying.

 

For example, a husband is most likely to tell me, at least in the office, he'd like to have sex two to three times a week, sometimes three to four, but most often two to three times a week. Most wives tell me that they would like to engage sexually one to two times a week. I point to them and say, there's not a lot of difference between two and two, that he's on the higher end of it, she's on the lower end of that.

 

But then when I ask them how frequently it's happening, it's rarely that often. Usually, the high-desire person will look at the low-desire spouse and say, "Wait, if you want it more than what we're having it, why aren't we having it?" 

 

I usually interrupt them at that point and say, "That's the important question." Not why are you withholding it from me, or not even why don't you want as much as I do. [00:05:37] It's, why aren't either of us getting as much as what we would like. 

 

And that's where we get into things that are actually solvable and doable for the couple. Maybe she says, "I'm just too tired. There's too much on my plate. I don't have the energy for that at the end of the day." Or "I don't feel like you've connected with me for the entire week." Or he might say, "I just don't feel honored by you. It's tough to want to reach out to somebody who I feel like they've screamed at me all week."

 

They start to get down to what's really in the way, and it's not the other person's desire. It's something that's almost always very solvable.

 

Laura Dugger: Do you find that until they come into the office, they're not typically engaging in these conversations themselves to be able to problem solve?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: When couples come into the office, no matter what the sexual problem is, the number one thing we find is they have not really adequately talked about it. [00:06:37] They probably have screamed about it, they've yelled about it, they've held each other in contempt about it, but they haven't sat down and really explored with each other. 

 

Couples can be married 30, 40, 50 years, and they come into my office, and we start asking questions about their sexual life and their sexual interest and their sexual experience. And very consistently couples look up and say, "We've never heard this from each other. We've never had these kind of discussions." 

 

Even as simple as, how do you like me to seduce you, is not a question that many couples have asked. And that very much comes into play with the desire piece. Just not asking what would you like and how would you like for it to be? How often would you like it to be really erotic? How often would you like it to be just soft and tender? How often would you like it to be nurturing? There are different items on the menu, and couples rarely have talked about that level of desire. [00:07:36] 

 

Laura Dugger: Would you say that it's also only possible to start having healthy conversations about this with a third party? Or are there certain things that people could attempt at home that you would recommend?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, I think there's plenty of ways that couples can get started with it and doing a lot of that at home. The number one exercise that I give to couples that are just getting started is to pick up a good quality Christian book on sexuality or a good quality educational book on sexuality, to read it out loud to each other.

 

I tell them the goal is not to get to the end of the book. But the goal is to read a couple of paragraphs and then ask each other, what do you think? And to take turns in who's doing the reading. 

 

And what happens is they hear themselves using the language, they hear themselves saying the words with each other, and then it prompts discussion. They can look and say, Well, I don't think anybody is like this, really. 

 

I've had times when the spouse has asked that. [00:08:38] And the other has looked at them and said, "No, that's me all the time." It gives a foundation for them to start. 

 

It is important that couples be able to just talk to each other about anything. If you can't talk about parenting or finances or the in-laws, you're probably not going to be able to talk about something as core and central as our sex life. But there are plenty of places that you can learn good communication skills. And that sets couples up to talk about it.

 

I have on my website a working date exercise and several different sexual exercises that they can do during their working dates. Including one of them that is a sexual communication exercise that just helps couples to kind of begin talking to each other, even in terms of talking about what kind of language. All of that can be done by most couples at home.

 

If it's gotten to the place that they're really already in gridlock, they're fighting, it escalates very quickly, then they probably need a third party to help draw the energy off of it, contain it, and help them to stay their best while they're talking. [00:09:46] But for the most part, couples can usually at least get started on all of this conversation at home.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great way of putting it. As we go back to your update on this study, I'm curious now on the other side, where have you seen the most changes in couples from your original dissertation?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: So one of the things we did different is the last time we did what we call forced choice. Where we asked which of you is the higher desire individual in the marriage, the husband or the wife? And this time we gave an option for "same".

 

We had a number of couples that actually chose "same". 16% of the husbands chose "same" and 13% of the wives said that they believed that they were about the same level of sexual desire.

 

Then what we did is we asked them: how often would you like? [00:10:45] And we put that into a calculation that told us if the husband was the high desire, if the wife was the high desire, or if they were actually reporting the same numbers. 

 

And what we came up with was about 20% of the couples were reporting their desire being pretty much the same. It was actually 27%. That was interesting to us that almost 10% more couples calculated out as having the same level of desire than even believed. 

 

So our takeaway from that is couples probably are closer together than what they often realize. They begin to... we call it in our field, make attributions. They attribute things to each other that may not be fully true. So the higher desire individual might believe that their spouse has a lower desire than what actually is.

 

Quite honestly, it looks like from the numbers that the men are the ones that tend to be missing it most often. [00:11:45] So we're probably underestimating our wife's actual desire. So leaning in and really understanding what is it.

 

So we saw that a little bit last time, but the significant number of couples that are showing up as the same was kind of new in this redo of it. We did see that slightly fewer wives this time around believe that their sexual desire is about right. 

 

Last time it was a bit over 50% of wives said, Yeah, I think I'm okay. This time it was less than 50% of wives. So it's possible that that's a sample difference, but it's also possible that expectations continue to increase for wives. And so fewer of the wives that we're talking to believe that they're kind of okay.

 

The most significant thing we saw, though, is during the distribution 15 years ago, half of the couples reported a significant level of pain in their marriage due to sexual desire discrepancy. [00:12:47] This time it was 65%. 

 

So we made a big deal 15 years ago that half of the couples that are in our culture that are walking through your school doors or sitting in your civic group or sitting in your churches, half of them have experienced a high level of distress and maybe conflict over sexual desire.

 

It's gone up 1% per year, up to 65% based on this sample. That means we've gone from being half to a very clear majority of couples are experiencing a lot of distress over this. 

 

So when couples come in and say, we're really fighting over how often we have sex, I can honestly say that's normal, that most couples are doing that. But to see the high level of distress was interesting. It seems like it's going up, not stabilizing and going down.

 

Laura Dugger: I really want to pause and unpack a few things that you've mentioned. [00:13:47] First of all, just say a big thank you for the research that you're doing. I think that this is correcting a false belief that I've held in the past, which I was under the impression that from research, sometimes wives reported being the higher drive spouse. Sometimes husbands did. But I thought it was 0% of couples that reported the same. But first of all, you're saying that's incorrect, right?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, generally, when we ask the question, we're asking an either-or question. So in my original dissertation, we did have some couples that showed up the same when we would do the calculations. But when we're asking the question, we usually do that forced choice.

 

That's been fairly consistent in the research. So we've very clearly been able to say that around the world, that in pretty much every culture, almost always 80% of the time the husband is the higher drive, and 20% of the time the wife is the higher drive individual. But this just is teasing it out a little bit further to show that there are a number of couples that are coming fairly close. [00:14:54] 

 

Now, we could still get it down if you use an instrument that's fine enough. One or the other would be higher or lower. So some of it depends on how you ask the question.

 

But to get to the heart of what you're saying, I do think that there are a number of couples that are closer than what the couples realize or do feel like, "No, we kind of have that figured out. We're on the same page."

 

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Laura Dugger: One other question you mentioned asking the wives if they... I can't remember how you worded it. Was it if they felt that their desire was okay?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Correct.

 

Laura Dugger: To follow up with that, was there a question for the men as well if their drive, if they would rate it as being okay?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, so what we asked for both husbands and wives was, do you believe that your sexual desire is about right? We gave them the choice of I believe it's way too low, too low, about right, too high, or way too high. Then we asked them to rate their spouse as well so they could say what they believed they were and what they believed their spouse was.

 

Pretty consistently, right about 70% of the husbands said that they believed their sexual desire was about right. The wives largely agreed with them. About 70% of the wives said their husband's desire is about right. [00:17:57] 

 

Less than half of the wives believed that their desire was about right and the husbands agreed with them. The numbers were actually 47% of the wives said that their desire was about right with most of them, 50% of them saying it was too low or way too low.

 

The husbands were only one percentage off. 46% said their wives were about right. We actually had 53% say that they believed their wife's desire was too low.

 

Laura Dugger: So none of the wives said that they had too high of a drive and also none of the husbands said their wives had too high of a drive. Is that correct?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: 3% of the wives said that they believed there was too high. None of the wives said way too high and 2% of the husbands believed their wife's desire was too high. Again, none of the husbands said their wife's desire was way too high.

 

Laura Dugger: Then reversing it with the husbands.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: In this sample, we had 16% of the husbands say theirs was too high, and 13% of the wives said their husband's desire was too high. 6% of the wives said their husband's desire was way too high. [00:19:05] 

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, fascinating. Then to go one step further, when they did rate it a certain way, did that tie into a question of how often either the husband or wife were wanting to engage sexually?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: We haven't looked at that, Laura. That would be a good question for us to ask of the data. What we were looking at at this point is how that affects satisfaction, how far the discrepancy between them.

 

So we focused more on the discrepancy at this point than we have how they feel about their desire. But that would be a really good question to ask. I bet we would find something when we dig into the data.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, let's go with what you were studying. How did you see that the desire discrepancy is affecting the couple's overall intimacy and marital satisfaction?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: That is really fascinating, and it gets a little bit complex. We initially thought that the higher desire person would dictate, you know, if I'm the high desire spouse, that the higher it goes, the more distress we're going to have in the couple. [00:20:09] And we didn't find that to be true at all.

 

But it's also not the lower desire. So it's clearly the difference between them that causes the distress, that causes couples to have conflict over it. But when we look very carefully at it, it's actually the perceived difference between them that is most predictive of distress.

 

So let's say that we take my wife and I, and we say that we are a stereotypical couple where I'm the higher drive and she's the lower drive. It's not my high drive that causes the problem, but it's actually not even her low drive that causes the problem. And it's not actually the difference between my high drive and her lower drive that's causing the problem.

 

The problem comes from the difference between what I think her desire level is and what she believes or what she's reporting her desire level to be. So for a couple that comes into my office, I look at them and I look at the lower desire wife, and I'll say, "How often would you like to have sex?" [00:21:13] And she says, "I don't know. Maybe once a week." And I look at her husband and say, "How often would your wife want to have sex?" And he goes, "Never." Well, there's a big difference between once a week and never.

 

And the further apart that perceived difference is, the greater the distress there is in a couple. And that was fascinating to us, that it's not about what is, it's about what we believe is that's causing the problem.

 

The further that discrepancy increases, the more we see distress in the couple around sexual desire, the lower their overall reported level of sexual satisfaction. So not just in the area of desire, of course, but overall they report sexual satisfaction lower. And we saw lower marital satisfaction, the further apart a couple is.

 

Our guess at that, our interpretation of it is, these are couples that really aren't talking well to each other. They don't believe the best in each other anymore, very likely, at least not in this arena. And when we're not extending grace, when we're not believing the best in each other, when we're not leaning in, being curious and really trying to understand each other, but are trying to be proscriptive, are trying to be critical, the relationship satisfaction goes down. [00:22:25] 

 

So what we found is, yes, the further apart a couple is, the more problems they tend to be reporting in their marriage.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. I can see how that's incredibly helpful for working with couples, and that you've noticed that they're more so relying on assumptions rather than having open, curious, grace-filled communication.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Right. The beauty of that is, for your listeners, that's something that they can work on without any help from the outside their marriage. Sitting down and starting the process of being curious. 

 

"So I'm just curious, what would you like? How often, if it were totally up to you, would you like to have sex?" And expect conflict back from your spouse. Expect them to blow up a little bit. Expect them to get heated. Expect them to be angry, because we haven't had open, curious conversations. 

 

You have to remain calm and cool. "Okay, so what I hear you saying is this." And just take the lead in engaging in an open, curious, grace-filled conversation about it, and allowing your spouse to unpack it with the hope that they'll, of course, flip that around and then be curious about you. [00:23:37] 

 

Couples that overall can talk about other arenas can usually do that pretty well, and they don't even need outside help to start breaking down some of those misassumptions.

 

Laura Dugger: That's a helpful next step to work on closing that gap. Do you have any other suggestions for what couples can do?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Probably just doing some reading. Anything that's going to help them to get to understand each other, even the nuances of desire. We asked if you're open to sex or if you're initiating sex, why? We saw men being a little bit more towards the physical side of it, women a bit more towards the relational side of it, but both of them saying their number one reason they're pursuing sex is for connection.

 

Sometimes that's really missed with couples. The lower desire often believes the higher desire is just horny or demanding, and they're not seeing it as a bid for connection, as a bid for being close. [00:24:40] And so exploring with each other what is interesting in it, what do you get out of it, and why do you pursue it? Just having those open conversations I think is the best thing for couples to do. 

 

But the other piece is, the gap may not be the problem. Maybe a crazy example is you have just gorgeous hair, I don't have any hair. That doesn't cause distress for me, even though there's a big difference between what we've got. 

 

If that causes distress though, that becomes a problem for me. But it's not about changing the fact that you have hair and I have none. I don't think we would be successful in changing the fact that I don't have any. And many times couples come in and they want to change their spouse, make him have less desire, or make her have more. The problem isn't what is, the problem is how they're handling it. 

 

If we can work on reducing the distress that's coming from it, that's when we make a big difference in it. Helping them to realize we're not as far apart as what we are, or helping them to see that there are different things that are going on underneath the surface. [00:25:52] That it's not just about being horny, it's not about demanding, it's about changing the way we experience the gap I think is the biggest challenge there.

 

That's what I see in my office, what makes the massive difference. Couples walk out of my office often with about the same gap as they had when they walked in, but they're not in distress any longer. They understand each other and the role of sex in the marriage differently. So they have a much healthier sex life, even though we haven't changed the gap, per se.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that, because then it's really getting to the root issue, rather than just some of the surface differences.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, we're not trying to change something that we haven't, in our field, figured out how to change yet.

 

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I'm hesitant to ask this next question because this is not a talk to focus on parts and numbers, but still, I'm curious. From your research, you said on average, the wife was reporting desiring sex about, on average, one to two times. The husband, maybe two to three times. That's per week. How often did they rate that they were actually engaging in it?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: The actual engagement varies a bit on how many kids are in the home, how old they are, if there are health issues that are going on. If there are little kids in the home, obviously we see... little kids especially, we see those numbers drop pretty substantially. [00:28:00] But most of the couples we're seeing right about the once a week is about how often it's happening. 

 

Older couples tend to report a little bit less than that and young newlywed couples tend to report more than that. But right about once a week. 

 

What was interesting is both husbands and wives tended to agree very closely on what those numbers were, which was kind of surprising. We expected there to be more discrepancy and they were pretty close.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, that is interesting to note. I guess part of my heart behind asking that, do you have a range, like a danger zone or something to be cautious of? Not that it's wrong, but on either end, do you have a recommendation for this may be on the side of connecting too much and this would be a red flag you may not be connecting enough?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I would not put a top end if the sex is about connection, if both of them are enjoying it. [00:28:59] I have couples that I work with that have sex daily and a couple of times a day on the weekends and it's rich for them, they enjoy it, neither of them feels pressured into it. So I don't know that we'd put a top end if the heart is in the right place and the focus is in the right place.

 

For a lower end, I get a bit anxious when couples consistently drop below that once-a-week marker. It seems like when a couple drops to every other week, it's pretty easy for it to drop to once a month and once it drops to once a month, it's pretty easy for it to drop to once every three months and once it gets to that, it's really easy for them to move into a sexless marriage where they haven't had sex in months, they haven't had sex in years. 

 

I think trying to shoot for just that kind of weekly marker is a healthy goal. That they have sex two, three times a month. May be doable for some couples that can keep that on a really consistent kind of basis. [00:30:02] But as it drops much less than that, I get quite concerned. 

 

It's kind of the thing that, especially for the lower desire individual, whether that be the husband or wife, the less frequent they do it, the more energy it takes to kind of gear up and to experience desire.

 

We're seeing definitely that, especially wives, but also many husbands, don't experience desire until they start to get aroused and begin to focus in on it. So many of the wives that I work with, they'll say, "Well, you know, 5 to 10 minutes into it, then it's enjoyable. And I'm wondering, why don't we do this more often? And then 30 minutes after we're done, I have no interest in it again." That the desire is present when the arousal is there. 

 

So if they're not actively engaging, the desire tends to minimize even more and more, and it takes more energy to kind of get the engine warmed up and get it moving forward. Where if they regularly keep at it, it tends to work better. [00:31:04] 

 

Laura Dugger: For those couples who are engaging in mutual sexual intimacy at whatever frequency works for them, what are some of their positive side effects for the relationship?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: The biggest difference that we see is these are couples that report an overall higher level of marital satisfaction. Now, of course, the question is, are they having sex more because they like each other more, or do they like each other more because they're having sex more? 

 

The answer we kind of come back with is yes. It's a chicken and egg thing that's kind of... it works hand in hand. We see things like an improved immune system, them feeling more bonded, glued together. That's just part of how the biophysiology of it works.

 

I guess one way to put it is we would see them having sex as more of an energy than a drain. For couples that are struggling with keeping the frequency within parameters that are workable for them, sex becomes a problem area, and it becomes a drain in the marriage, and it's a pressure. [00:32:11] The higher drive is always irritated that it's not happening enough, and the lower desire is frustrated because of the pressure that they're feeling.

 

So rather than it becoming an energizer for the relationship, it becomes a drain. For couples that are doing it more frequently, it becomes more of an energizer. 

 

One of my colleagues says that sex is only about 10% of a marriage in a healthy marriage. It's 80% of a marriage in an unhealthy marriage. That it just becomes a real stumbling block. 

 

But back to some of the basic stuff, the overall health, the immunity, cardiovascular function, we've got some research that proves that it decreases depression in people, improves overall life enjoyment.

 

So generally, it's set up that it's going to be a healthy thing for us if we can keep it moving. If it becomes a pressured area, it tends to distract even more.

 

Laura Dugger: I love your response to that, because I do think that when it is going well, and like you said, when the heart's in the right spot, it just points to our Creator and what He intended for this to be such an incredible gift that blesses so many areas. [00:33:20] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, very much so.

 

Laura Dugger: This may be an unfair question, but if you could only drive home one point today, what is the main thing that you want listeners to be aware of as it relates to marital intimacy?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I don't know that this comes specifically from the research, Laura, but I've really spent a lot of time with my couples talking about the concept of seduction. And many times people kind of rear up internally when I mention that word, because we have such a negative connotation, and think about it as that means I have to be very exotic. And that's not what I'm inviting.

 

If we think of a couple that's dating, they are seducing one another. They are always being their best. They're always doing what it takes to draw the other to them. And that sense of drawing you to me, of being the kind of person that draws you, that's what I put the label of seduction on. 

 

So a husband is seductive when he gets on the floor and he plays with the kids. [00:34:20] A husband may be seductive when he's helping to clean the house beside her, or they're doing tasks together.

 

A wife is seductive when she looks up at him and says, you are amazing, I am so proud of you. A wife is seductive when maybe she brags on him in a neighborhood party, and he hears her just lifting him up. 

 

There are a lot of ways that we can be seductive to one another. We tend to intuitively know that early on. Many of the couples that I work with, especially who come in with desire problems, they've stopped being seductive. They've stopped drawing one another. They've moved to a sense of demanding. "You need to be this way for me. I need this from you, I'm going to be angry, I'm going to be hurt, or I'm going to be disappointed if you're not."

 

To encourage them to kind of reverse the role, and how can you draw your spouse into it? You did that really well. You talked them into committing to spend the rest of their life with you. How can you go back to being that kind of a person? [00:35:23] 

 

So I would just say if they can move into, how do I live seductively around my spouse? I think that can go a really long way to changing the whole tone of the marriage and of our home.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, I love that, Dr. Mike. I really like that language around it too. I feel like you've even given us a practical application or some creative ideas that we can start to think, how can we do this in our own marriage? 

 

If listeners want to take this one step further, whether that's making an appointment with you or hearing you speak elsewhere, where would you direct them?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Probably to the website, IntimateMarriage.org. We keep an ability to connect with us through counseling. We try to keep up there the different places that I'm speaking. But there's also online teaching there. 

 

You can go through the entire Passion and Intimacy workshop online through our website. [00:36:22] I think it's the third hour or so is an hour on desire, and we talk through a lot of these concepts for couples. So all of that's available on IntimateMarriage.org.

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to that on both our show notes and our Resources tab on the website. Everyone knows we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Dr. Seitzma, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Just kind of continuing the last thing that we were talking about, in part because it's such a focus for what I'm teaching and helping couples with right now is just become an expert at living seductively in your life with your spouse. How do you continually draw them? How do you be your best self every time you're around your spouse so that you're successful when they look over and go, "Man, I remember why I married you. I really like you." And so how can we live in a seductive way in our marriage? [00:37:25] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I just want to say thank you again. You're such a friend of The Savvy Sauce, and it's always fascinating just to sit under your teaching. And I appreciate this research that you've clearly communicated to us. I think it's going to be really uplifting to everyone listening. So thank you for being my returning guest today.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks. I really appreciate it.

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:38:25] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:39:30] We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:40:32] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.