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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Mar 09, 2020
Monday Mar 09, 2020
*Disclaimer: This episode contains potions of adult material and is intended for mature listeners only*
93. Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn
**Transcription Below**
Colossians 3:13 (AMP) “bearing graciously with one another, and willingly forgiving each other if one has a cause for complaint against another; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so should you forgive.”
Shaunti Feldhahn received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author and popular speaker. Today, she applies her analytical skills to investigating eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace. Her groundbreaking research-based books have sold more than 2 million copies in 23 languages and are widely read in homes, counseling centers and corporations worldwide.
Shaunti’s findings are regularly featured in media as diverse as The Today Show and Focus on the Family, The New York Times and Cosmo. She (often with her husband, Jeff) speaks at 50 events a year around the world. Shaunti and her husband Jeff live in Atlanta with their teenage daughter and son, and two cats who think they are dogs.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Shaunti Feldhahn:
Thriving in Love and Money Workbook
The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Couples
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.
Have you ever had an interaction with the opposite sex that left you puzzled? I hope you conclude this chat with more clarity, because today's guest is an expert in the field of gender differences.
Shaunti Feldhahn is the best-selling author of books such as For Men Only and For Women Only. She is going to unpack the most common insecurities each gender experiences and share ways we can understand each other better. [00:01:24]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Shaunti.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, it's great to be with you.
Laura Dugger: I know that you have an analytical background, and I would love to hear how you unexpectedly switched careers to focus more on relationships.
Shaunti Feldhahn: This was a right-hand turn that I was not expecting. I actually had gotten my graduate degree in a very sort of analytical field and then went to work on Wall Street. I mean, I was in the finance arena, and I was analyzing large Japanese banks, but really developing some analytical experience.
Then when Jeff and I, my husband and I, moved to Atlanta, this whole thing started because I had this opportunity to write a couple of novels. [00:02:11] One of the main characters in my novel was a man, and I realized I didn't know how to put thoughts in his head. Like, I had no idea as... you know, I'm a woman. What do I know about what a guy would be thinking? But I had to say what my main character was thinking.
This whole thing started because I would interview men, and I would say, Okay, if we'd be out to dinner with another couple or something, I'd go to the other husband and say, "Can I ask you a question? Here's the scene in this novel that I'm writing. What would you be thinking if this was you in this situation?" And as these guys started telling me what they'd be thinking, I was so shocked by some of the things I was hearing. And it sort of sparked me to do more of these interviews and more of these conversations.
I realized at some point that the stuff I was hearing was really, really foundational stuff. These weren't things the guys said, they kind of thought or they felt like, you know, it happened every couple of months. [00:03:13] The stuff that they were describing were things that they as a man thought or felt like every day, multiple times a day.
I had been married maybe eight years at that point. Of course, I'm like, "Why haven't I heard this before?" I think that's when the analyst hat went on. And really, it was amazing. Just very providential was able to turn that into a big survey of men to go, "Okay, what percentage of guys does this apply to?"
And that really started this whole thing, because when that became For Women Only, the book, For Women Only, and it became a big bestseller, the revenue from that ended up funding the next research study and then the next and then the next. I sort of stumbled into really innovating this new type of social research.
Laura Dugger: That is incredible. And just starting with a few simple questions and your curiosity, it sounds like their answers must have been very different from the ones you would have naturally thought. Is that true? [00:04:18]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Like I said, the thing that really shocked me was that I was shocked and that the men actually quite often... like they didn't realize they were saying anything shocking. They thought that we knew this. I would come home and I would tell Jeff, "Guess what this guy told me?" And he would nod, you know. And he told me later that half the time when I did that, he was thinking to himself, "You mean you didn't know that? What about that did you not get before?" It really started showing me there's this huge disconnect in some of these things that are so foundational for both men and women.
Laura Dugger: So then when you think back, what was your most shocking discovery about the gender differences?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Probably the biggest thing that was the starting point of the shocking discoveries — it's really what got me started — was hearing these really awesome men, like men I went to church with, men I really trusted, like we were very good friends with them and their wives, and I knew how much they tried to, for example, honor women. [00:05:30] And yet when I was asking, Okay, so here's a scene, and I was describing this one scene in the book where there's this male character and he's in the office with a female character who is wearing like, I don't know, like a tight skirt or something, like a kind of a short tight skirt, and I was asking, "Okay, what would the character be thinking?"
And these amazing, trustworthy, honorable men were describing these thoughts like, "Oh, well, she just wants me to picture her sexually. She's just trying to use her body to sell the deal or whatever. And I'm like, what? She's just trying to look fashionable and she's just trying to look attractive." And they're like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. She's not trying to look attractive. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's trying to trigger sexual thoughts in the men around her." And I'm like, "Okay, whoa, what? And I was really shocked, honestly.
Laura Dugger: Because women, I'm sure if you surveyed them, that is not at all their intention or what they're thinking. [00:06:30]
Shaunti Feldhahn: No, it's not. As a matter of fact, eventually I did survey the women. Because this is what we do right now, we do these massive nationally representative studies. In one of those studies where I did actually do a study on men in the workplace and, you know, we had a control group of women. And so we asked the women, If you dress like that at work or anywhere, I suppose, you know, what are you trying to do? And I can't remember the number. It was something like, I don't know, 18 percent or some number like that of women who said, Oh, absolutely. I'm trying to get him to look at my body. I'm trying to get him to view me sexually. I want him to view me that way. There were some. It was actually a higher number than I thought it would be, something like 18% or 20%. But the vast majority, you know, 80 percent of women are like, What? No, I'm just trying to feel attractive.
Eventually, we realized and I don't know how much you want to get into this, Laura, but we actually realized once we started digging into what's kind of underneath this disconnect between men and women, that there's actually a part of the brain in the male brain that is actually stimulated in a way that literally does not exist in the female brain. [00:07:50] And it's why we have no equivalent.
There is literally a part of the male brain that when they see an image, it stimulates the center near the back of the brain to view stuff like that very sexually. And when women see an attractive man, that part of the brain isn't stimulated at all, and there's no sexual temptation.
So we women have no idea that it exists in men and men have no idea that women don't know what's happening. The hard part of this is that it's thrown at men every day. I have a 16-year-old son and he's trying really very, very hard to try to honor women. He's trying to take his thoughts captive. You know, he's trying to do a good job at that.
The ironic part is that this is actually the hardest for men who want to honor women. Because if they're trying to honor and respect women, they try to look away. They try to take their thoughts captive. They try not to think those things and think about other things like baseball scores. You know, like what else can I think about? Which is great. [00:08:53]
But those are the people who care about honoring women. The ones who don't care about that, who don't want to respect women, they'll just let their thoughts go wherever.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's fascinating. I remember being at a conference one time when you helped the women understand this concept. You wrote up on the board, don't read this.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes.
Laura Dugger: You correlated it and said this would be the same thing as an attractive woman walking by, that honorable man may not want to look at her, but he still knows she's there.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. It's the brain. The male brain can't not notice this. He can choose what to do with it. And that's the thing that is very easily misunderstood. So that's one of the things I want to make sure that I say very clearly. There is a wiring in the male brain that is stimulated, biologically. He has no choice in the matter. It's like you rub your hand up somebody's arm, those nerve endings are stimulated. [00:09:55] You can't not have that. But he can choose what to do with it.
And that's the issue is where so many men who are trying to be honorable and trying to respect women, that's the choice that they have to make over and over and over and over all day, which is to look away, to bounce their eyes, to take those thoughts captive, to think about my wife instead of that image. And it's obviously challenging. They have to do it, but it's challenging.
I think that's the hard part is a lot of women, our brains aren't wired that way to be stimulated in a similar situation. So we don't know that it happens, and so we think to ourselves, at least what I used to think, it's none of his business what I'm wearing. He shouldn't be looking. I don't realize that guys are like, what does that even mean? Because their brains are being stimulated even when they really, really do not want them to be.
Laura Dugger: I think just like your books often do, it provides compassion for the other gender. [00:10:55] And so then even going back to those first two bestselling books, For Men Only, For Women Only, of all those research findings, will you just give maybe two examples of something that both men and women can learn and grab onto today so they can start enjoying their relationship more?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, sure. Absolutely. Well, probably the most important one... and this is what we've seen over the years. By the way, we... I don't know if you knew this. Because we had done so much research ongoing. We ended up putting out new editions of the books just a couple of years ago because there was so much new stuff that we were learning along the way.
After all of that time, the most important thing statistically is actually to recognize that men and women have two very different sets of primary insecurities running under the surface. I mean, to some degree, you know, we all have insecurities about everything. [00:11:56] Like, you know, we all have self-doubts. We know what that feels like.
But these are ones that are basically kind of a raw nerve for men and a raw nerve for women, and they're different. And if that's true, what it means by definition is that something different is going to hurt your spouse's feelings than would hurt yours. You're hitting a nerve that's different.
And so what we tell the women is that our men look so strong and confident in themselves, and we think that's how they feel about themselves and we don't realize it's just a mask and that underneath the surface, there's so much self-doubt. And it's essentially a feeling like, am I any good at what I do? Do I have what it takes at all? Like, I really, really want to be a great husband, for example, or I really want to be a great dad or I want to be a great salesman. [00:12:52] Like, they want to tackle a challenge, right? But the guys described it as really doubting that they know what they're doing and really feeling like their wife or someone is going to discover that he's just a terrible husband and he's been masquerading this whole time.
So there's a lot of vulnerability under the surface. And that's one of the reasons why there's this massive emotional need for knowing that the most important person in his life, the person who knows him the best, really appreciates him, really kind of believes in him. That there's this huge need to hear that and to feel that because it speaks to that question under the surface.
On the women's side, what the men don't realize is that to them, we look like these beautiful women that they really love, they adore, and they don't realize that we have this huge question under the surface for us that's like, Am I lovable? And they don't know that that question doesn't go away when we get married. [00:13:58] They kind of think, "Well, of course, she knows I love her. We're living in the same house. Of course, she does."
And they don't realize, no, in marriage it just morphs to, "Does he really love me? Is he glad he married me?" It could be an underground question under the surface. But man, when that's triggered, you know, you have an argument and he's displeased with you and he heads off to work and he's angry, I mean, guys don't realize that's really roiling inside. And there's this huge need to be reassured. And also really a need just every day to know that this man who I'm amazed that he wants to marry me, he wants to live his life with me, that he's still excited about that. Like, to know that every day that he loves me, that's the need that women tend to have.
These are about 80%, 20% on both sides. Depending on the survey, it was anywhere between 75% and 85% of men and women had these. It's not 100%. But it's pretty common. [00:14:59]
Laura Dugger: So for the man, he doesn't want to feel inadequate. Something practical that we can do, you're saying, is encourage or look for every opportunity to sincerely speak life into him. Is that right? Or even just saying thank you. I know you've pointed that out before.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. The thing that we don't realize, and it really is both sides, but let's just tackle the women, the wives who are listening and wanting to know how to sort of speak life into their husband. We don't realize how often we're doing the opposite of that without ever intending to. These little things like, why did you put the kids in those clothes? They need a jacket. It's cold outside. And we're just making a comment or we're asking for information or we're annoyed. We don't realize that because the guy has this underground question, am I any good as a dad, am I any good at what I do, and what he tried to do was dress the kids well, he hears that as you are an utter failure as a father. [00:16:09]
Now, I think that's crazy but that's the way a guy hears it. And hearing it once, it's painful. Hearing it twice, it's more painful. If he hears stuff like that throughout the day and it hits the nerve over and over and over, it's so painful because he starts feeling like, "I can't. I'm no good."
For a guy, if you ever hear him say, "Nothing I do is ever good enough for you," oh, boy, watch out. That's the statement of a guy who's just been shredded, even though you have no intention of shredding him that way. No intention. It's just you're wired differently. You don't realize it for him it's all about, I tried to do this, whatever "this" is, tried to clean the kitchen, dress the kids, whatever it is, and I failed. For a man, that's really, really hard.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to have those examples because then to be proactive, when you see something and you can sincerely call it out or thank them, I would think it would have the opposite effect. [00:17:18]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Well, actually, and you referred to it, we actually did one of our research studies because I'm kind of a research nerd when it comes to trying to figure this out. I really did want to know what you could tell a man that would build him up emotionally in the same way that "I love you" builds us up as women. Because, you know, when you hear your man say, "I love you" because it speaks to our insecurity, am I lovable, it really hits you.
I learned really quickly that it doesn't work to tell your husband, "Oh, honey, I appreciate you so much or I respect you so much. Just actually saying those words doesn't really hit him. But when you say "thank you" to a guy, that's his kind of equivalent of "I love you" because it says I noticed this thing you did. "Thank you for dressing the kids. Thank you for cleaning the kitchen. You were so tired and I saw that you took the kids and played with them anyway. You're such a good dad." [00:18:15] I mean, even little things like thanks for putting gas in my car, it says, I noticed this thing you did and it was good, and I appreciate it. That's like life to a guy.
Laura Dugger: Because that's saying he's doing good with those external motivators. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Let's also flip it and speak to the husbands listening now. For the wife, you're reminding them that this is an everyday pursuit. How would you communicate to them?
Shaunti Feldhahn: What we tell the guys is the same way that sometimes maybe your wife is hitting your nerve, making you feel that sense of failure or self-doubt, your wife has the "am I lovable, would he choose me all over again?" [00:20:24] So you as a guy also need to know how to avoid hitting it, kind of what to do maybe if you do accidentally hit the nerve, but also how to build her up.
So avoiding the negative side, literally, it's just recognizing what is it that's going to kind of raise that question in her? Like is he glad he married me? Does he really love me? Guys think it's ridiculous that we would even ask that. But we tell them there's no switch in a woman's brain that gets flipped to the "oh, now I feel permanently loved" position. She has that question every day.
And you don't realize that conflict or you withdrawing... you're upset with each other, you've got to get to work, you drive away, and the thought of the argument just goes out of your head. Like you turn it off because you have to focus on work. And you don't realize she's not turning that off. It's not because she's holding a grudge. It's not because she's refusing to let it go. It's literally that question has now risen up. [00:21:28] And she's kind of going, "Are we okay? It's a painful question.
So we tell the guys, reassuring her, recognizing that maybe her raw nerve has been hit, and reassuring her is huge. Like before you go away to work, literally saying something like, "Look, I'm angry, I need to get to work but listen, we're okay. We'll talk about this tonight. I love you" and leaving. That's huge for a woman because it tells her that all this was was just an argument. This isn't that "I'm not glad I married you".
That's the sort of avoiding the negative side. The positive thing we tell the guys is, picture it like she having the question: Is he glad he married me every day? That's in there every day, even if it's subconscious. So she's kind of subconsciously looking for the answer to that every day. [00:22:28]
You can literally answer that for her by reaching across and taking her hand when you're walking across a parking lot. That says, I'm so glad I married you. You put your arm around her in church or sitting at a restaurant with friends. And that says, you're mine, right? I'm so glad I married you. That to her is what speaks life.
Again, this isn't 100%. You know, this is about 80%. This isn't going to necessarily be exactly what that 20% needs. But even for the 20%, we found that this was a good thing. It just wasn't maybe oxygen the way it is for the rest of us.
Laura Dugger: Either way, if they do fall into this 80% or not, it's at least going to bring up some good conversation. And you can start to ask each other, is this what you identify with or is there something else?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, exactly. Honestly, one of the things that we found that's the most helpful about this... I do pastoral interviews a lot. You know, Jeff and I will do marriage conferences or I'll do women's events. [00:23:28] But one of the formats that's become really popular, honestly, for us, is a pastor will bring us in or me and interview me on stage as the sermon time for church because then everybody hears about it all at once and it kind of can develop a common language.
And one of the things that we've noticed is literally the couples will walk out of church and the wife and the husband will turn to each other and go, "Really? Really? Is this true?" Again, if they're in the 80%, they'll kind of go, "Yeah." "What?" You know, you've got all these baffled husbands who are like, "But of course I adore you." And the women are like, "Of course, I appreciate you." It's such a good conversation starter just to go back to the very beginning and really understand these insecurities under the surface.
Laura Dugger: I highly recommend these books because thinking back, my husband and I went through them together when we were engaged and we had so many of those moments that you're describing of, "Wait, this isn't you, right?" And light bulb moments. [00:24:42]
Shaunti Feldhahn: You should have seen me when I was researching the thing. I mean, half the time, I'm like, "This isn't you, right?"
Laura Dugger: And now that you've researched and then taught on this topic for years, what habits have you personally implemented to improve your marriage, specifically as it relates to you understanding Jeff better?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Pretty much everything, honestly. We had a fine marriage. We were more happy than not. We generally had a decent marriage, but there were plenty of times that we didn't. I mean, Jeff says this isn't true, but I know it's true that often it was really because of how clueless I was of how my words, it was usually my words, were affecting my husband.
I'm a pretty strong, opinionated personality, if you hadn't noticed and I just didn't realize I was shredding my husband half the time. I mean, little things. Well, they seemed little to me. I didn't realize how big they were to all men. [00:25:47]
I can still remember when this started to come up, we were at our friend's home group for church. We were at their house, and Jeff and I were like, "Okay, it's kind of time to go." And Jeff looked at his watch and said, "You know what? We really do need to get home because the kitchen sink is busted. I've been trying to fix the faucet, and I really want to get back there and see if I can fix it." Everybody's kind of standing up and putting on their coats, and I kind of joked, "Honey, you've never been able to fix anything in your life. Just call a plumber." I didn't realize the chill in the air from the six men in the room was related to me having basically just said to everybody in the room, I think my husband is a worthless idiot.
Now, I would never have felt that that was what I was saying. I adore my husband. I hugely appreciate him. He's an amazing guy. I just had no idea that what I had just said in front of a whole room full of people was exactly the opposite. [00:26:48] That was sort of the beginning of the education of me as I started doing these surveys with men. Oh, it was so convicting. And I had years of habits that I had to unlearn. But thankfully... I always say God is merciful. Thankfully, I started unlearning them.
This is the case for this whole topic. Once we realize what's in the heart of our spouse, once we understand what's under the surface, yeah, we may still have habits that need to be unlearned, but you want to unlearn them. You're motivated because you realize, Oh my word, I've been hurting the most important person in my life. And I don't want to do that.
Laura Dugger: And if these can just be a little piece of knowledge, just reading, you know, maybe a chapter a month out loud or asking each other questions, that's so encouraging that that can improve your relationship.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, it's the simplest stuff too. [00:27:49] Honestly, this has become so convicting and so sobering. Because we get these emails all the time or, you know, somebody posts on social media and we get these comments that say things like, "I read your book and it saved our marriage" or "my husband and I were getting ready to go to the divorce court and we read the book and we talked about it and we tore up the divorce papers." Which is awesome. Wow, thank you, God, for using it this way. However, for me, why that's sobering is if a 180-page little tiny book can save a marriage, there's a whole lot of tragically unnecessary divorces going on.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is so sobering. If you're enjoying these episodes and want to keep the conversation going or if you want to see and learn more about our guests or if you just want to check out if we're offering any current giveaways, make sure you stop by our social media pages on Facebook and Instagram at The Savvy Sauce. [00:28:53]
Again, now that we've addressed the female side, how would your husband answer that same question? Does he have any habitual practices in place to understand and love you better?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah, he definitely does. I think honestly, one of the big things for me, which is the case actually for statistically most women, is that he didn't realize that if he was grumpy and sullen... you know, you have that kind of that black cloud that sometimes follows your husband around. He thought it only affected him. He didn't realize that for me, and I can't remember what the number is, it's like 87% of women, something like that, it really causes some insecurity. It causes that feeling of, are we okay?
You know, because he's withdrawn. He's moody. He's not talking. It's like, are we okay? Is something wrong? What did I do? You know, it's like you get all these thoughts, even if it could just be that the Michigan Wolverines are getting beat badly. [00:29:52] But if we have a little thing where we're at odds or whatever, and he kind of used to be, he would be withdrawn for a couple of days. And now it's amazing.
I actually watch... he starts down that slope and I can see that he's trying to pull himself out of it and snap himself out of having that bad mood, because he knows how insecure it makes me feel. And that has been really powerful on his side.
Laura Dugger: So even you seeing him make the effort is what translates to be meaningful to you.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, very much so. And that's the thing. Unless you know this stuff, you won't notice the other person making the effort. You won't realize that it's any different in what they're trying to do. Once you know some of these little simple things, you go, oh, that's what they're trying to do.
One of the things that we recommend with the two books, with For Women Only and For Men Only... Some church that was doing premarital counseling with them actually came up with this idea and we asked if we could borrow it, because it's the perfect idea. [00:31:01]
They literally advise people to switch books first. And instead of reading the book about your spouse, actually read the book about yourself and kind of highlight and circle the stuff that's so you, that you think, "I could have said this. This is so me." Also make notes on the areas where maybe you're in the 20% on this or that, right?
But then what happens after you've done that, you really have a sense, my spouse didn't know this? Like, these are the things they didn't know? And then you trade it back and you're reading a personalized copy. But you've also got a real insight into, Oh, when they were in a bad mood, my husband didn't realize that was impacting me this way. And so it puts a different spin on it. It's not like he's trying to torture me. He just doesn't know. [00:31:56] So it's really helpful to actually understand what your spouse doesn't realize, just as much as it is to actually learn about them.
Laura Dugger: I think that's so powerful. It's really wise for so many different reasons, even just a way that the book can articulate what you're experiencing that you may not be aware of so you could grow in self-awareness. And then when it's time to switch and read the other book, I think that it helps you assume the best of one another. And then when you're assuming that, you notice those things, and it's just a great cycle.
Shaunti Feldhahn: It does tend to feed itself. I mean, we're not perfect. None of us is ever going to do it perfectly. But it really is helpful because you absolutely start to understand and have compassion for what's going on in your spouse's heart, and recognizing when they're not getting what's in yours. All of that just really helps. It's really simple, but it is really transformational.
Laura Dugger: Now I want to switch gears a little bit because I want to ask that same question for you as a parent. [00:33:01] How has all of this research applied and changed the way you parent?
Shaunti Feldhahn: It's been radically, radically transformational in my relationship with my kids, because we have two teenagers. But when we started this research, when For Women Only came out, which was the first of these research books, my son was one, and my daughter was four. And they sort of grew up with us kind of learning and stumbling through this and trying to figure out what we were doing.
I actually have seen, for example, for me with my son... He's 16 now. There have been times where I absolutely recognize that I have shredded his little spirit in pieces, because of how I've handled something. And I know perfectly well. Again, he's a guy. And for a guy, it's all about am I any good at what I'm trying to do? That is it. Am I any good? [00:34:08]
So when I have been exasperated with him, you know, like, "You forgot to turn in the science project. Come on, we worked on that," and the exasperation is rising in my voice, I wouldn't have recognized that what I'm saying is, you're an idiot. I never would use those words with my sweet, sensitive son ever. But that's what I'm saying when I have that tone of voice.
It doesn't mean I always do it perfectly. Obviously, I don't, or I wouldn't even know of this. But unfortunately, I've recognized the times that I've really shredded him. It's hard, but I've recognized how much I need to pull back and apologize and work to build him up and help him see himself as being a strong guy who's honorable, and who's trying to make a difference in the way he handles things and given the belief that he is good at what he does. [00:35:08]
That is so crucial. And it is so lacking in society today, especially for young men, because they've grown up in a world where it's okay to say that men are buffoons. They've grown up in a world where all you see are men being idiots on TV or whatever. And that's not real but that's what they see.
So me going the other end of pointing out, "I'm so proud of you, you worked so hard. This test, I know it took a lot out of you and I'm really proud of how you buckled down and what you accomplished. I probably would have said a couple of those things. Like, I would have said, good job, and then left it at that, as opposed to making a point out of making sure that I'm saying those things.
Laura Dugger: I think it's understandable that you're saying this isn't natural and that's why you have to keep retraining yourself. But also that it is possible. And when you gain this knowledge, if you apply just little pieces, that it can radically improve your relationships. [00:36:13]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. It's little bits of knowledge here, little bits of knowledge there, and little aha moments. Once you see them, you go, Oh. And once you apply them and you see that it works, I mean, that's the best incentive to continue. Because that's when you start seeing the transformation.
I see the look on my son's face when he feels like he has tried and failed and tried and failed. And I see the look on his face when he's tried and tried and tried and finally feels like he's done well. Sometimes it sends me to tears. And how much I want for him to grow up feeling like he can do this.
Laura Dugger: Going back to what you had said, every book that you've written and published then has funded the next research project, it reminds me of the Proverbs 31 woman who considers her field and buys it, and from the prophet then she plants a fruitful vine. Well done with that. But we would love to know, what are you working on next? [00:37:16]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, actually, this is something that really was miraculous. It came out of the clear blue sky. Actually, it's just come out in March of 2020. Jeff and I have been studying why we fight about money. A huge topic in marriage is money. We've never studied it before. We studied everything else. We studied parenting and intimacy and in-laws and relationships and pornography and everything. Like, how could we never have studied money?
So the book's called Thriving in Love and Money. It's essentially, why do we fight about it? Why do we avoid talking about it? Why is it that I'm really tempted to try to pull the Amazon package off the front step before my husband gets home? What is that? And sort of what's underneath the surface. Or people who have great communication around money. Why is that? What allows that to happen? It turns out none of it is about the money. It turns out it's entirely about all these things going on under the surface. [00:38:23]
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. So timely. We will definitely link to that book in our show notes and on our resources page. I'm so glad that it's now available. If listeners want to purchase your book or find out more about you, where can they connect with you further online?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, go to shaunti.com for my website, and you can see the research there. S-H-A-U-N-T-I is how you spell my name. But they can get the book anywhere, any online or any retailer.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. This time has been so invigorating. I'd love to end with one final question, Shaunti. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Shaunti Feldhahn: I always try to understand what's going on under the surface of what just happened. So if my husband looks like he's angry, okay, what is it? And sometimes it has nothing to do with me. But I always learn something. [00:39:25] Or something that makes my daughter really happy. Like, why did that make her so, so happy? What is that? And you learn so much about people that way.
Laura Dugger: Well, that is such a good savvy sauce. Your kindness just shines through this interview. I can even hear your smile as we're chatting. So thank you for being my guest today and thank you for all the work that you've done in this field and the relationships that you've helped.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, thanks. I really appreciate the chance to share with your audience.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:40:29] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:41:31] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:42:33]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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