101 Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

101. Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Song of Solomon 4:7 (AMP) “O my love, you are altogether beautiful and fair. There is no flaw nor blemish in you!"

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen’s Website 

Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen

ACT Worksheets

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

Samaritan Ministries is a Biblical way to help your family and care for your brothers and sisters in Christ. Every month, Samaritan members help one another with their medical needs by praying for and providing financial support. You can learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen returns today as our three-peat guest. We are talking about sexual intimacy in the context of marriage, and we are planning to cover three themes: Turnoffs, turn-ons, and ways to enjoy sex more than we currently do. 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Konzen.

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's great to be here. [00:01:18] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, you are a friend of The Savvy Sauce since the beginning. We're going to put a link in the show notes so everyone can easily click on our previous chats together. But for today, let's begin here. How did you decide to work in this field?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, specifically in the field of sexuality, I was in the middle of getting my doctorate in psychology, and I took a required class on couples counseling. Most of the class was focused on intimacy, and I had to do an assignment. I had to interview a couple, and then I had to write and create an intervention for the couple.

 

So the couple I interviewed had a hard time talking about sex openly. They had a good sexual relationship and a good marriage, just a hard time talking about it for various reasons. So I created this intervention, and I presented it in class, and my professor said, "That's your dissertation." [00:02:20] 

 

It became my dissertation, and it became what I studied for the next five years. Then I specialized in a certification for sex therapy. So it just rose out of a need to help people talk more openly around sexuality. So yeah, out of a class assignment. Go figure. 

 

Laura Dugger: Go figure. You are such an overachiever and a very naturally gifted communicator, so I can see where that opened up doors on your path.

 

I know that you've had years of experience. So what have couples consistently told you is a turnoff, both for men and women?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, the number one is conflict. The number one turnoff is when there's either been conflict ongoing in their relationship, and so therefore they're not wanting sexuality in any form or some forms, or the conflict just happened and it's unresolved. [00:03:26] So it doesn't sound like a typical turnoff in the sense of like, Ooh, your breath smells bad. And let me tell you, those come up too. You know, please shower, all of that.  But the number one is the verbal, especially conflict. 

 

Now, it's interesting because I was sharing this with somebody, and they said that for them, talking about serious issues was a turnoff. And I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "Well, when it becomes an argument." And I was like, "Yeah, that's exactly it."

 

It's not the talking about the serious issue that's the problem. Like, let's say that happens, you know, 30 minutes before someone's going to have sex. It's the fact that that serious issue turns into some kind of conflict between them.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And that's for men as well. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Oh, by far. It's the number one thing that men should bring up and the number one thing that women bring up. I would say the men might word it differently. When she speaks in certain tones. In fact, the feeling of being demeaned in any way for men is on the larger scale. [00:04:29] And so that will come up in the argument when she uses certain phrases. Then anger for women. So they phrase it differently, but it's the same issue.

 

Laura Dugger: Oh, that is interesting. I'm sure if women are critical or contemptuous, that would feel disrespectful and be a turnoff for a man. And then you mentioned anger. Are there any other topics that are considered turnoffs commonly?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, it's really interesting as people do bring up things like body odor and breath and, you know, things that have to do with the five senses. You know, smell, touch, sight. So people will bring up concerns that their spouse has turned off by looking at their body. That comes up a lot.

 

But as far as this turns me off, I would say 90% of the time what they're talking about is conflict. [00:05:32] So not the senses. They do talk about the senses in terms of what turns them on, but not as far as turnoffs. Not as often anyway.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay. I want to go a little bit further with that just to clarify. So you're saying the husband or wife may be concerned about their own body image. Is that what you're saying? They're concerned about that with their spouse, but that's actually not what their spouse is saying is a turnoff.

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Correct. Now, they might individually in my office say, "I'm not attracted to my spouse and I think it affects my desire levels for sex." That happens. But honestly, that's pretty rare. It's usually the partner who feels like their partner thinks their body is unattractive that then affects their level of desire, interest, turn on for sex. So it's more the "I think you're thinking this." [00:06:31] 

 

Laura Dugger: That is profound. Let's stay on body image for just a moment. Most people are probably aware that body image affects sexual intimacy, but we often don't hear any details beyond that fact. So will you unpack this a little bit more and share specific body image struggles for both genders?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Body image is a pretty big piece. Well, when we wrote our book, we dedicated a whole chapter to it for that reason, because self-consciousness in the midst of sexuality, self-consciousness about the body is known through research to cause all kinds of different challenges. It'll cause a challenge with sexual functioning itself.

 

So that can be with erectile functioning as well as the ability to reach orgasm and experience arousal. And that self-consciousness becomes a withdrawal. So it affects the quality of the time together.

 

And you would think it would just be a female thing. [00:07:33] It's not at all. The very, very first couple I did sex therapy with his was he had a lot of hair on his back and he would feel really self-conscious whenever she would touch his back. And hers was that she had extra weight on her body. So whenever he would touch her stomach, she would withdraw. And they had never talked about it ever. 

 

And just breaking that barrier of not being able to talk about it was really quite a shift for them. So, yeah, it comes up for men and women across the board.

 

Laura Dugger: Would you say it affects around 100% of people or is that too strong?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: With the couples that I've seen, I've literally had probably two that just it wasn't an issue. And you would think these were the slim in shape couples. Yes. In one... no, probably three couples. Two of the couples, young, slim in shape, didn't even cross their minds. [00:08:31] But one of the couples was they were both obese, actually, and they both really enjoyed each other's bodies and never worried about it.

 

So I've worked with people who are what you would consider, you know, on the front of a magazine, gorgeous, beautiful, both men and women. And the concern about body image isn't just for those who the world even might consider less attractive. 

 

In fact, those who would be considered on the high end of attractiveness have very strong concern about negative views of their own body. So it's pretty much across the board, across gender, and across even cultural barriers.

 

Laura Dugger: Why do you think that is, that someone who may appear perfect in appearance to others, why are they the ones that often struggle with this shaming or critical self-talk? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, it can come from super early on. I mean, it really almost isn't connected to what they look like as the person talking to me. Like, you know, here they are in their mid-20s, mid-30s and on that beautiful end of the scale, you know. [00:09:39] 

 

But the message is they've been getting their entire life either to themselves or from media or from their family are pretty strong. They've had, Oh, you know, make sure not to eat that messages since they were young. You know, they've watched their parents. 

 

Often what you'll have is women with their children, the moms are making comments about their own dieting and how they need to lose weight. So this child is hearing comments about other people's bodies. And so they're applying that to themselves at 8, 9, 10 years old. And then they're still applying at 20, 30 years old.  

 

So you've got family messages that are negative about their body or family messages that are negative about their own bodies or about someone else's body. It's very common for people to tell me about comments that their siblings or parents made about another sibling's body or somebody else's body as they were walking past them out in public. [00:10:36]  

 

So you've got family messages about the body, which is huge. And that even with somebody that maybe doesn't have any typical problems with weight, they're concerned about it because they've heard those messages for so long. 

 

Then you've definitely got the huge piece on media that can't even be measured how big that is. And then honestly, that message gets stamped in religious communities big time on this is more spiritual. And so, yeah, the negative view of the body is across the board. 

 

Laura Dugger: What you just said there at the end, what do you mean it gets stamped in religious communities? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: So you'll notice you'll get women sitting around a table at a church lunch and pay attention to what they're talking about. Across the board, you'll get lots of comments on what you call fat talk, which is that they're talking about their diets and that there's no calories in this food because you're not eating it with a fork. [00:11:32]  

 

So women will sit around even at a social function, including church functions, and they're having this conversation about their diets and what they're eating and how many calories are in things. This is happening everywhere.  

 

And then you've got zillions of websites that will connect thinness with spirituality. So that message gets stamped in workshops and lessons from the podium, during a sermon, on a website, in a book, that spirituality is connected to what your body looks like. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. So there are definitely some deep roots in these issues. And then I'm curious, how does that negative body image then affect our sexual desire and our sexual pleasure? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: The self-consciousness that happens makes it especially difficult. I would say it comes up the most with women. [00:12:32] It definitely comes up with men. 

 

But let me just explain it with women. So when women will have that message, they feel uncomfortable being naked in front of their husbands. They don't want to dress in front of their husbands. They don't get out of the shower without covering up because they're worried about what their husband might be thinking.  

 

The husband might be like, I love looking at her body. I love seeing her naked, but she's not feeling that for various reasons. So it'll affect way before they even get into the bed. Then definitely, nakedness in and of itself is what's often happening with sexuality. Some people do have sex when they're still slightly covered.  

 

So there they are, naked in that bed and all of that self-consciousness is there, and so the ability to relax and really enjoy the orgasmic and arousal response is difficult. So it cuts it off at both ends. It cuts arousal and turn-ons before things even start. And then it affects it while things are going. 

 

Laura Dugger: So a very negative impact that it has. [00:13:32] Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.  

 

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Laura Dugger: I remember this from graduate school. We were always taught that the brain is the most important sexual organ. So how can we understand and apply this truth in order to override these negative body image issues and negative self-talk? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, cognitive behavioral therapy would approach it... so this is one of the main approaches that has been studied and researched. [00:15:37] They would approach it with a bit more of a clamp down on it, get rid of it, get it out of your mind.  

 

I would say actually I use acceptance commitment therapy, which is ACT, A-C-T. ACT. And I would say when those sentences come into your mind, when those feelings enter your body, they're kind of common. They're normal. And to be able to say... and so this is the brain part of things. To be able to notice the thoughts, notice the feeling, notice the sensation in your body, and to be able to say to yourself, well, I understand why this thought's here. You know, I can be insecure about my body, so it's understandable that this thought is here in my brain.  

 

And then that acceptance piece of "it's understandable this thought is here" instead of "get away from it, get away from it, ignore it," which doesn't work anyway, is a huge piece of shifting the thinking. [00:16:35] So accepting the thought.  

 

And then how do we replace that thought with a thought that might be based on our values? I love the approach in ACT, acceptance commitment therapy, with what they do is they work a lot on values, which matches a lot with those with religious beliefs.  

 

What are my values? Let's say I'm engaging with my spouse, and my values about my time with my spouse are to be loving and giving and to have fun. So now I'm going to say, "Hello, thought. I know that you're here. I understand why you're here. However, right now, I am going to..." And then you go into your valued choice of I'm going to go ahead and give to my partner and be real and genuine with my partner and let myself enjoy the sensations that I'm experiencing in this time.  

 

So that would be, wow, in the quickest nutshell, I've probably ever done an explanation of the process I do with those kinds of thoughts. [00:17:35]  

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I want to hear more about these values. Could you give an example of what that might look like in a real-life couple? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I actually do bodywork from early on so that it's value-oriented. With individuals. I will encourage them to really look at the scriptures, Psalm 139, that God made us while we were still knit in our mother's womb and then throughout the scriptures. But my favorite is you are fearfully and wonderfully made. 

 

So there's often a relearning of the view of the body that has to occur for the individual. I have some exercises I send people home with to really relearn God's view of their body. 

 

I always joke, you know, like the Bible says that you're fearfully and wonderfully made. The word "fearful" actually means.. it's the same word we use in the scriptures about that we are to approach God with fear and trembling with awe. Like, wow. That that's the word that's used about how your body is made. [00:18:34] 

 

And when's the last time you were naked standing in front of a mirror and you said, Wow, my body is awesome. But God did such a good job. So, you know, we don't do that. 

 

So it starts with the individual view of the body. Then I have couples do exercises where they talk about that really openly as they face each other fully clothed. Then they do that exact same exercise talking about their bodies as they face a mirror standing next to each other. And then as they do it partially clothed to naked and then naked in bed.  

 

So I have a process I take them through to sort of desensitize these negative views of the body, to just kind of normalize those negative views and to still be fun and giving and real with each other. That these are things that people think. How do we still be giving in the midst of those thoughts so that those thoughts don't control what we do? 

 

Laura Dugger: And I don't want to go on too much of a tangent, but I'm loving this explanation of ACT. [00:19:36] Could you say what it means again?  

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. Acceptance Commitment Therapy. You can actually go on Amazon and there's several popular books. It's one of the approaches to therapy that's super generous. 

 

You can do what you call a values clarification tool. It's really lovely. You can Google it and go do it and talk with someone about it so that you can make valued choices instead of automatic reaction choices. 

 

Laura Dugger: That seems like it would apply even in other areas where I've heard- 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Oh, yes.  

 

Laura Dugger: I mean, for example, somebody who had experienced trauma and they were hypervigilant a lot. So they would say, "Hello, hypervigilance. I can feel you." But plain old vigilance will do the job any day. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. Any day. Yeah, all emotional states. I actually just had a client that they're missionaries south of the border here. So they're in Mexico. [00:20:35] We did therapy for several years online, actually. And she sent me this beautiful, lovely set of sketched drawings that exhibit this expression. It's about grief and how I talk to grief, I let it talk to me. I mother it. I let it speak. I don't tell it shh, or be quiet. And then we stand up and we go do the dishes.  

 

And she said, "This reminded me of how we did therapy." And I was like, "Yep." You know, and then we stand up and we go do the dishes. We don't try to get rid of it. We say it's understandable that you're here and now I have some things I need to do.  

 

Laura Dugger: Well, my hypothesis is that that type of therapy actually is much more effective than, like you said, stop it. Shut it down. Ignore it.                          

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, I always ask people, "Did it work the last time, and the many times that you've tried to stop it, shut it down? Did it work?" And it's like, "No." [00:21:36]  

 

Laura Dugger: Well, changing the subject now, what are some common turn ons for both genders?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, definitely women will always share romance and dates and non-sexual affection. We tend to think of those things as just women. I think women are just more vocal about it.

 

But good emotional connection for both genders and ongoing playful touch. When sex becomes a problem, couples stop touching. They stop having playful affection because the partner who's not wanting to have sex or who's feeling reactive around sexuality starts to interpret every touch as he or she is wanting sex. And so they pull back.

 

One of the biggest things that are a turn-on and that people usually miss from their relationship is playful affection throughout the day. So that's a big one for both. [00:22:36] 

 

And definitely men will say this more often, but women say it as well, that when a partner plans and initiates special stuff sexually, that that's a turn-on. And then not just affectionate touches, but then playful, sensual touches. 

 

So this would be kind of messing around. You're in public and nobody can see what you're doing, but you playfully touch your spouse sensually and make a funny remark in their ear. So I would say the word playfulness is huge. That playfulness around touch and comments and glances at the eyes are definitely turn ons for both men and women.

 

Laura Dugger: For these couples that come to see you, is there any specific homework you assign to them to enhance their pleasure and intimacy?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Actually, I send them home with a box of cards called the Ungame. I start off with the all ages version and then I go to the couples version. [00:23:34] And then I created cards called the Intimate Marriage cards as well. 

 

So I send them home literally every week to spend five minutes a day talking openly and honestly about, first of all, their overall intimacy and then their sensual intimacy and then their sexual intimacy.

 

The talking openly and honestly about sex is one of the biggest things that helps people enhance their pleasure and their intimacy. I tell people, go find a good book on sex. I love Douglas Rosenau's Celebration of Sex. We have our book, The Art of Intimate Marriage. Go buy that book, read a chapter, talk about it, read a chapter, talk about it, read a chapter, talk about it.  There's something about learning how to talk openly that enhances the whole process.

 

Laura Dugger: In general, how many couples would you say come into your office that already talk about sex?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: One in a thousand, maybe one in a hundred. I mean, I will occasionally at a workshop have a couple come up and say, "Oh my goodness, this was great. [00:24:37] We talk really openly around sexuality." But those couples don't walk in my office. 

 

Because we know this from research and I know this from my clinical practices. If people are openly and honestly talking about sexuality, they're often not having the problems around sexuality. Like I said, there are some. We do openly and honestly talk, but we're stuck, and so they come to see me.

 

Laura Dugger: If a couple is already talking about sex with each other, how do you frequently see them getting stuck?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say probably one of the biggest things is although they might be talking openly, they're not actually hearing one another. So the ability to have compassion and empathy and genuinely listen is problematic. But then also sometimes they'll hear the information. They'll genuinely hear the information their spouse might be sharing with them, but they don't know what to do with it. 

 

I'm a pretty active kind of therapist. I'm like, Okay, well, let's try this. [00:25:36] You know, sending home with... I had one husband say to me, "This was so helpful. You gave us the language to be able to say these things. Can you also give us direction on now what to do with this information?" So sometimes people get the information but aren't sure how to put it into practice for various reasons.

 

Laura Dugger: And I think that would be really helpful then. Could you think of a hypothetical scenario and walk through what you would instruct that couple?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, this wouldn't be hypothetical. It's a real one. They hadn't engaged sexually for 10 years. They had a lot of challenges in their marriage. By the time we got to really directly working on their sexual relationship, they were in a much, much better place. 

 

So they were talking every day because they had my cards. So they were talking every single day openly about sexuality. And she felt like she was super direct. "Let's go spend some time together." In his mind, that meant go cuddle. In her mind, she was like, I'm thinking we're going to have intercourse. [00:26:40] 

 

So in my office, they had to clarify when I use this language, this is actually what I mean. And he had to say to her, I need you to directly tell me that this is what you mean. 

 

Sometimes people have to be open and real and not defensive about the way that they communicate that it might not be clear for the other partner. But then also sometimes, and in this case, this was the truth for this couple and with many others, that he wanted to be more thoughtful and send little playful sexual comments but he didn't think that way. So he set a reminder on his phone to go off once a day and he would send her a little joke by text. 

 

So sometimes people need promptings. Sometimes they need to learn how to communicate more clearly and then they need to be more specific. So I'd say a number of different things.

 

Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. And I can see where a third party would be so beneficial there to help get someone unstuck. Let's move on to the final section of this chat, beginning with your opinion on how we can savor sex more than we currently do. [00:27:45] 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: That's a very good question. I'm going to sound like I'm repeating myself. Sexual assertiveness. Helping people be very direct instead of indirect in how they say what they need and what they want. So I would say assertiveness. Is this more of an issue for women? It is. 

 

Women in general they are uncomfortable saying what they like and what brings them pleasure because our culture says that it's negative for women to do that. We don't prioritize female pleasure. I would say that's a huge piece. 

 

Women will say, You know what, I just make it about him. And let me tell you, that hugely affects the level of pleasure that the couple and the partner, the husband and the wife, feel in their sexual relationship.

 

If you look at it in Song of Solomon, it's not like that at all. They're very, very, very mutual in the way that they interact. So I think that's God's plan that sex be mutually enjoyable. [00:28:48] 

 

So for women, that often means that they need to learn to prioritize their own pleasure and to be assertive with what brings them pleasure. And that might mean when he says, "Hey, do you want to have sex?" it might mean saying, "I am just shot today. Could you give me a back rub tonight? And then we go to sleep. And then how about on Saturday we have some great time?"

 

This assertiveness could mean a not tonight message that does still prioritize I have a bodily need. And then let's make sure to have some really great time at this time. I teach... I joke... I'm a sex therapist, but I teach people to reject one another. No, to refuse in a way that doesn't feel shaming or like a rejection.

 

Laura Dugger: That makes it more meaningful when your yes is yes and your no is no.

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. You're prioritizing your needs. Not making them above his needs, but you're being assertive with your needs as a female. That's vital. [00:29:51] 

 

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What are all the benefits of mutually agreeing to engage sexually with our spouse on a consistent basis and, dare I say, with enthusiasm? [00:30:51] 

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Right? What an idea! Well, I do think in order to get that enthusiasm and in order to get that mutual peace, sometimes what we have to do on a spiritual level is relearn some of the messages we've gotten.

 

I do a whole section when I'm doing a workshop on relearning 1 Corinthians 7. This whole idea of mutuality that's taught in 1 Corinthians 7 isn't like how it often gets taught, which is it says you're supposed to give to me, so, you know, you're not giving to me, so you better give. And it becomes a demand when actually what 1 Corinthians 7 is talking about is this. I have been given my spouse's body. I am a steward of their body. It's their body, but they are giving authority over it to me. And so I am called by God to steward their body and to bring it pleasure. [00:31:51] 

 

That actually is what 1 Corinthians 7 is teaching, this mutuality of giving, not of, hey, it's your duty, you better do it. The word duty actually in 1 Corinthians 7 is the same idea that's throughout the scriptures that we are so deeply grateful for what Jesus did, therefore we.

 

That's what the word is in 1 Corinthians 7, not like we think of it's my duty. That the mutual giving to one another, the mutual I want to bring pleasure to, I want to steward my partner's body well, that's aiming for the genuine benefits that God intended for sexuality.

 

Laura Dugger: You have such a gift of bringing scripture to life. For married couples who have an exciting and fulfilling love life, what have you found to be a few of their secrets?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Definitely even what you just asked about the mutual giving piece. [00:32:52] And then really making sure that things are fun and playful. That's such a big one. Having what I would call sexual play, doing enjoyable, creative new things.

 

But there is also the reality of, for these couples, they are having sex regularly. "Regular" can be a wide range. They are engaging, so they're respectful, they're fun, they've resolved their conflict well. That's a huge one. I can't emphasize that enough. They've resolved their conflict well. And then they're playful and creative and regular.

 

Laura Dugger: So it sounds like communication is just a huge thread throughout all of this. Is there anything else on this topic that we've failed to cover yet today?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say the one thing I would emphasize as far as all this about desire is two pieces. One, take the time to relearn your view, your spiritual view of sexuality. Most people haven't done that. They don't even know what the scriptures teach about sex other than don't do it until you're married and things like that. [00:33:56] So relearn your view of sexuality. That's one of the big ones.

 

Then really making sure to incorporate sensual touch. A lot of times sex goes, we hold hands as we go on our date and then we get in bed and have sex and touch genitals. There's no sensual touch in there. Getting back to good, healthy, sensual touch. In fact, engaging in sensual touch with no sex after. Touching each other, doing all that foreplay stuff, and go to sleep. No intercourse, no orgasm. So returning to good, sensual, playful touch is just vital.

 

Laura Dugger: As you mentioned this topic of playfulness and fun, could you give a few more examples?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I literally do this as a part of assessing couples. How much do they walk through the house and lightly brush the hand against their partner's buttocks? How much are they leaning across while they're driving in the car and caress their partner? [00:34:55] 

 

Even sexually, essentially. How much are they caressing the thigh as they're sitting next to one another? So not groping and grabbing in the sense of... because women will often say, you know, all he does is grab my boobs or my crotch. Is that what people want? No, not necessarily. 

 

This is a respectful, playful, loving, fun type of sensual touch that is vital to the process of healthy sexuality. The reality is it often takes couples quite a while to get back to that when sex has become problematic.

 

Laura Dugger: I think you've given everybody a starting place. I appreciate that. Now where can listeners go to learn more about you and your work?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I have a website. It's all one phrase. The Art of Intimate Marriage. It's the name of my book, The Art of Intimate Marriage. So it's TheArtofIntimateMarriage.com. 

 

Then there are podcasts on there. So a lot of different variety of different topics. [00:35:57] A lot of it reflective of the chapters of the book.

 

And then the books are available on Amazon. So there's The Art of Intimate Marriage. There's also Redeemed Sexuality. 

 

There's the Intimate Marriage cards that are available on the website. 

 

And then we have a new book coming out. I have a new book coming out called The Ransomed Journey, which is a book on couples' recovery from addiction. So specific to sexuality, there's of course a whole chunk on the recovery from sexual addiction. So yeah, any of those listening or reading or playing games tools, those would be good ones. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that because you've got it for so many different types of learners. If you're visual or through reading, auditory, you've got the podcasts, the interactive cards. Thank you for sharing all that. We'll link to all of that. 

 

Dr. Konzen, my final question for you today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:36:59] So I'd love to know from you, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: The thing I end almost every workshop with, and I don't mean this in a cliché way, is we have to be deeply embedded in not just reading our scriptures and going to church, but in who God is, not just reading our Bible, but what's His character, what's His heart. And that when we have that with Him, it helps us all individually. So I would say this slides over into the part two of what I think is practical, is that we have to be genuine and real and direct. We have to do that in our marriages. 

 

But we also need to have, in a very practical way, other couples in our lives. I can't tell you the number of times I'm working with people that the only person they're talking to openly is me, or maybe their sister or their brother, you know.

 

Couples do need to be in relationship, in community with others, where they have people that are willing to be honest and open with them, and that they can be honest and open with, and that people will tell them the truth. [00:38:08] That's the whole speak the truth and love out of Ephesians. So the whole realness with God, the whole realness with one another, I would say is the biggest practical that I think is important.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. Dr. Konzen, your intentional work continues to benefit people's lives every day. And I hope that you get to leave this time feeling as encouraged as I do. You're so wonderful to interview, and I just always love spending time with you. So thanks for being my guest.

 

Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's been lovely. I'm so glad to do it. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:39:08] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? [00:40:08] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:41:11] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.