56 Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

56. Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 5:18 NIV “May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.” 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness.  Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb.

 

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Dr. Michael Sytsma’s Website 

 

Kids Night In Faith Boxes

 

The Power of a Positive No by William Ury

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse.

 

To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma joins us today to discuss desire, frequency, and conflict related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Dr. Mike is a certified sex therapist and an ordained minister, so I hope you enjoy his unique perspective on these important topics.

 

He was my professor in graduate school, and I have always admired his work. I hope you feel the same way after hearing our chat today. [00:01:22]

 

Welcome, Dr. Michael Sytsma.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. 

 

Laura Dugger: We're so excited to have you. For anyone who has not met you yet, can you just share a little bit about yourself? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, so background-wise, I'm a pastor. I've pastored for a number of years. I'm a professional counselor. I'm a certified sex therapist.

 

Today, I run Building Intimate Marriages, which is a marriage ministry. We do marriage counseling, a lot of affair recovery, sex therapy, working with high-conflict couples, and then also working with premarital and couples that just really want to enrich their marriage. 

 

I also do workshops, seminars, and speak in churches, mainly around the subject of marriage and sexuality.

 

Laura Dugger: Great. And you were one of my professors in graduate school, and so I've been a beneficiary of all of your work. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you. 

 

Laura Dugger: We're actually recording today in your office and just walking in, it's such a calm place. So I hope that people who are local here to Atlanta will get to experience this someday. [00:02:25] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks. 

 

Laura Dugger: To lay our foundation, why is a healthy, God-honoring sex life with your spouse even important?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think it's important for a number of different reasons. One is what it does in tying a couple together, the bonding, the binding that it has for the relationship. So a couple will come in and sit down in my office, and they'll say, "You know, we've got a good marriage, but we feel like we've kind of fallen into roommate mode or brother-sister mode." Pretty much can guarantee that the sexual part of their relationship, the physical intimacy, is what's dropped off, because that's what keeps the chemicals floating around in our system that helps to kind of tie us together. It makes that relationship totally unique from any other relationship. 

 

I can be in a roommate situation and deeply care for my roommate and deeply care for who they are and the relationship that we have. I can be in a business partnership and really work well on accomplishing something. [00:03:27] But we don't have the physical relationship. So adding that into the marriage, we do really well in our finances or we do really well in parenting. As business partners, we're good. Adding the sexual piece into it is what makes it a very unique relationship and helps to tie that couple together. 

 

Laura Dugger: From a biblical perspective, is there any scripture that's especially important to you related to this topic? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, there are a lot of them that, to me, are really important in the topic. In following the last question, thinking about how important is it, it would just be that God said to the married couple to drink deeply, to enjoy it, to celebrate it.

 

All of scripture is really focused on a married couple celebrating their physical intimacy, celebrating the intimacy that they have, allowing them to reflect who God is in His intimacy and His desire for us. Many times through scripture, He talks about Himself as being the groom, and the church or the nation of Israel being the bride, and how He pursues them and how He wants them to be open and to draw Him into them. The language that He uses is very longing and very celebratory. [00:04:44] 

 

Then He sets up boundaries to protect the sacredness of it. Sometimes we get stuck on the boundaries as we start to talk about sex. And really, scripture is about celebrating the intimacy and the oneness and the coming together.

 

So I think the, you know, drink deeply, enjoy. May you always celebrate and enjoy the life of your youth, He says. I think the passages that just say this is good and rich.

 

Laura Dugger: That's great. For the general population, what is some helpful sex education that you believe we're not being taught?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I don't think we're being taught really well that sex is about both the physical and the spiritual of who we are. Whether you're faith-based or not, there's still a spiritual aspect of who we are. And there's a strong physical component to it. 

 

It's easy for us to think about sex as being just about the physical. And it very much is our bodies are designed uniquely to enjoy the physical aspect of it. Just how the nerves are set up in our genitals, how the nerves are set up in the rest of our body, we're designed to enjoy, to celebrate the physical aspect of it. But that's only a part of what sexuality is. [00:06:00] 

 

If we keep it fully focused on the physical, then when couples get older and the physical stops working really well, then couples kind of get stuck. Where if it's about both the body and the spirit of it, and we learn how to deeply emotionally connect with each other, we learn how to relationally connect with each other, and we use the sexual vehicle as a way to enrich the emotional and the relational connection, now we've got a whole unit. We're not just the physical, and we're not just the spiritual. We're bringing both of them together into it. I don't think we're taught that well. 

 

And so what we find is couples getting older or couples running into physical illnesses or couples running into different life kind of crises where the physical gets removed for them. A woman going through breast cancer and they've robbed all of her estrogen and that's having an impact on her body or the guy going through prostate surgery or just a couple naturally getting older if it's been about the physical, they often don't know how to keep that part alive.[00:07:11] 

 

One of my clients is 74 and he sat across from me and he said, "I'm having the best sex of my life." He said, "At 74, I can't believe it, but I am truly having the best sex of my life." He said, "To be honest, at 74 my body doesn't always play long robot, and hers doesn't either." But he said, "That's really okay. It's great when the physical works, but even when it doesn't, I am still having the best sex in my life." I don't think we teach people well how to have sex that's not tied to our bodies, to use our bodies as a part of it. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. And if somebody, this is their first time hearing that idea, how would you recommend they start now tying in the spiritual part of sexuality? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think part of it is them sitting at a coffee table and just talking about it with each other. How do we bring the spiritual aspect of it in? Because sometimes that is truly where it begins anyways. [00:08:13] 

 

You know, kind of the stereotype is a husband walking in, 80% of the time the husband's going to be the higher drive person in a marriage, and he walks in and he says, you're really cute, can we? And her instinct is, after you've touched my heart, after you've spent time with me, after you've cared for me. Well, that's the spiritual aspect of it that she's inviting him into. 

 

And if he can step into it, what would help her to soften? What would help her to feel truly cared for and enriched? And what would help him to feel like his heart was cared for? That's kind of where it starts. And then if they can bring that piece into the bedroom, where they're looking deep into each other, where they're just really enjoying each other, that'll bring the spiritual, that relational aspect in. And it's not just focused on body parts and technique. The focus on body parts and technique is not wrong, we just don't want it to be only about that. 

 

Laura Dugger: Sure. You're saying that there's more likely a heavy focus on that in culture? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I believe so, yeah. It's not very often that we watch a movie where there's a sex scene and it's about the heart of it. [00:09:20] You know, it's just about the physical of it, typically. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well said. What other areas in marriage affect a couple's experience in the bedroom, both positively and negatively? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Because sexuality is so much at the core of who we are and at the core of a marriage, I don't think we could identify a part of the relationship that's not tied to sexuality. 

 

Money, for example. You know, the top two argument starters for couples are money and sex, because money and sex are the commodities of marriage. They're in limited supply. And so we get into power struggles over how do we use them and who gets to choose how we use them. So money definitely ties into it. 

 

Kids. Are we honoring each other in it? Are we working as a unit? And if we feel like there's division or you're not supporting me, that plays into the sex life, because are you supporting me, are you listening to me, are you caring for me in my sex life? 

 

In-laws. If we go into how work plays in and it steals our time away, or you're putting more focus into work than you are me. I don't think we can come up with a part of relationship that doesn't affect our sex life. [00:10:31]  

 

And that's part of what we see as sex therapists is the couple's sexual life becomes a barometer for the rest of their relationship. And if the sex life is going good, usually the rest of their relationship is going pretty good. They may have some areas of struggle, pretty much every couple has a couple of areas of struggle, but overall, their relationship's going well. 

 

If their sex life's not going good, it tends to be corrosive and tear apart the rest of the relationship. And if the relationship's going poorly, it tends to be corrosive and tear apart the sexual relationship. We don't see that as much for money or parenting. It can encroach and erode at those. But it's going to encroach and erode upon the physical sexual relationship. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's break it down a little bit with each of those topics that you talked about. Let's start with money. You said that's similar. So how can a couple improve their sex life through their management of money as the topic, maybe if that's the one that they always argue about? [00:11:39] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: So what does it take to have great financial responsibility? Couples will play that out a little bit differently. But generally, the couple needs to have a common vision. Here's who we want to be as a couple financially. We want to have the newest, coolest car every other year. Or we don't give a flip about our vehicles, they're just tools. We're saving up so that our kids can get doctorates at Ivy League schools. We want to be able to pay for that. Or, no, our kids will manage their own education. We want a house on the beach. Or we just want to live simply and we want to have a huge retirement fund. All of those are fine things to do. The couple needs to have a shared vision. 

 

Well, similarly in a sex life, what is the shared vision? What does sex mean to us? And what does it look like for us to have a good sex life? Then we have to figure out whose roles are whose. Only rarely do I see it work really well that both pay the bills. Somebody needs to have the responsibility of just doing the dirty work of paying the bills. 

 

Quite often, one spouse enjoys that. They like the detail work of figuring it all out. One likes to be able to track the budget. One likes doing the investments. In our family, Karen does a really good job of managing the day-to-day finances. They drive me insane, and I don't want to deal with that level of detail. [00:13:08] 

 

But when it comes to investments, that's scary for her. She says, "I don't understand it, don't want to understand it," and so she hands it off to me. Well, that's fun for me. So we kind of figure out what the roles are. 

 

Similarly, in a sex life, a couple needs to figure out whose role is who. Who's the one who does the primary initiation? Who kind of plans this? And who does what during the sexual act? When a couple's talking about it and they plan it out and they make it intentional, it tends to work much better. 

 

Couples who aren't talking about their finances and aren't intentional about it, it gets out of control. Similarly for the sex life. And what we find is all the way along the line, the skills that we learn in one arena tend to play into and affect the sexual relationship. Does that kind of make sense? 

 

Laura Dugger: That is very clear. What would be some conversation starters if a couple never has had a conversation about who is the primary initiator or what other sex roles they're playing? What are some ideas you have if they want to talk about this tonight with their spouse? [00:14:17] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Actually, I think diving straight into it may be a little bit dangerous for some couples. If a couple is really good at talking to each other about the difficult subjects, they may be able to dive into it. If they have a hard time talking about whatever the other difficult subjects in their marriage are, so if they have a hard time talking about parenting, they may have a hard time talking about the intimate arenas of their sex life. And they would want to go work on just improving their communication first. And that would be the first thing that they would do. 

 

And they could just sit down and start talking through a story from childhood or teenage years or a movie that they saw that talked about sexuality and what they liked about it. So we're kind of talking a little bit more distant than our relationship. 

 

I actually have a handout on my website, in the Try This at Home section, that couples can use to guide them through that early types of conversation. [00:15:19] When they get ready to go deeper with it, I think the first question to ask each other is, what do we want it to look like? If I could craft our sexual relationship five years from now to be what I think is realistic, not ideal, but we really could achieve this, what would it look like? What would the frequency be? Who would initiate and how often? And what would we do? How long would foreplay last? What would the time after? When we're cuddling in bed together, what would that look like?

 

And just start to craft a vision for what would they like their sex life to look like. I think that's probably the first place. 

 

Couples have to do that with curiosity. We're wired very differently as men and women, even though there's a lot of overlap. Often we'll talk about there being more variance within the gender than between, but there's still some difference. And to be curious. "Really? You're wired like that? That's what you want? Well, that's really strange to me. Help me to understand it more." So rather than looking at our spouse and saying, You need to be like me and you need to want what I want, being curious about what they want and just sitting down and leaning into it. If a couple can talk well, I think that's a great way to start. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's a great grace-filled response as well, just being curious with your spouse, not condescending, not judgmental. [00:16:48] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Not critical, yeah. "There's something wrong in you" doesn't work. "Wait, you're a smart person. I know you love me. Help me to understand that because that makes no sense to me." That will keep the conversation moving forward. 

 

Laura Dugger: So communication, I'm hearing you say, is crucial. That's a beginning place. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah. Our research on healthy sexuality and sex that works really well in marriage regularly comes back to the couple's ability to communicate about it. What we find couples coming into our office is generally they have not talked about it. 

 

So I look at them and I start asking questions of, well, how frequently would you like to have sex? What would you feel good about? Which is a very different question from, you know, how often do you get horny? We try to come up with good, biblical, holy ways to say horny and we can't. So "how often do you get horny?" is a very different question from how often would you like to have sex. And just getting them talking through to those questions. [00:17:48] 

 

Laura Dugger: Anything else that you would add? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: One of the research studies said that couples who communicate really well, they get to know what each other wants and they're able to serve each other much better. But they're also able to speak up when this doesn't feel good or I don't want to go forward. And I can allow you to be disappointed that I don't want to move forward, but I have to be able to speak up about it. I have to be able to talk with you about it. And I have to be able to ask for what I want in this process. That ability to communicate at that level is really central to having a truly healthy sex life. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's really important what you're saying there, because I think that something maybe subtly being taught or expected is that the lower desiring spouse, maybe they should never say no, your body is belonging to your spouse. And that scripture can be misused. What's your take on that? [00:18:51] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: So my buddy and I had keys to each other's houses. And if I needed a tool, I'd go borrow his. If he needed a tool, he'd just come into my house and use it. I totally trusted him and it made things much easier. We both tilled our gardens every year. I have since learned that's probably not the best thing to do, but that's what we did. 

 

He went out and bought a brand new tiller because we rent it. And he says, "Come take a look." And I went over and I'm looking at his tiller and it's just gorgeous. And I said, "So do I get to use it?" And he said, "No." I'm like, "What do you mean?" "No." He said, "For this first year, if you put any scratches on it, I will really resent you. At the end of this first year, I'll have it all scratched up and I won't care if you put scratches on it, then I want you to use it. But for the first year, no, you're going to have to rent one this year." 

 

And I so appreciated him protecting the friendship, him protecting the trust that we had in each other by saying, "If you do this, it's going to do a wound to the relationship." And his ability to say no made his "yes" far more powerful. [00:20:02] 

 

I really cringe any time I hear a well-meaning person say that you should never say no to your spouse sexually. I think that does so much damage in the relationship. I want my wife to say yes to me.  If she can't say no, I never know when she's saying yes. 

 

William Ury talks in his book, The Power of a Positive No, of how important defining our yes is. But when we clearly have our yes defined, no gets much easier. And if a couple is pursuing a healthy sexual intimacy, any time it doesn't feel like you're pursuing me for some healthy reason or a reason I can get on board with, we need to be able to say no to protect our marriage, to protect the relationship, to protect how I see you. 

 

Now, if our no is punitive, "No, you hurt me yesterday and I'm going to punish you by saying no, that's not okay. If we're always got the brakes on, then something's wrong that needs to be explored. But if it's truly the, "I am so sorry, I am tired tonight, I didn't reserve energy for you," I think we need to be able to say no. [00:21:11] Then project a time that I will have energy for you because I want us to have a healthy sexual relationship. 

 

But if I can't say no, I can't protect the marriage, I can't protect the friendship, I can't protect how I honor you, and I can't protect our sexuality. Scripture says to honor the marriage bed and keep it sacred. And the language there is don't do anything that would rob it of force and vigor, would rob it of life. 

 

And I think sometimes saying no actually protects the life force of a sexual relationship. I radically disagree with anybody who says you should never say no. I think the no's become really important in protecting it. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's great to hear. Thank you for sharing that. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage, with you. Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and, if needed, even save their marriage. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way, they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. [00:22:19] 

 

Through their weekend retreats, Winshape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. 

 

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Laura Dugger: Let's say that a married couple used to experience more spark. What are some ways that they can begin to reignite their love connection? [00:23:30] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: So I love that Christ actually gives us the answer to that question. He is identifying himself as the groom in Revelation, and He's talking to his bride. And He's talking at one point to the church at Sardis, so his bride, and he says, "Man, I am so appreciative you've stayed committed to me. You've persevered. You stuck out your commitment even when it was really difficult to do so, even when there was a cost in doing so." So basically he's saying, Well done for staying committed. We're married, and you've hung in there, even when it was tough.

 

But then he says, "But I hold this against you. You have forsaken that first love. You've given up on the passion of love that we had to start with." And I hear so many couples come in and saying that. Okay, we're still married, but we've lost that passionate love. Where did it go, and how do we get it back? 

 

And Christ looks at his bride, and he says, "Remember the heights from which you've fallen. Repent, and go do those things again." [00:24:36] So the recipe He gives us is quite simple. Remember, repent, and do.  Remember what you did to fall in love with each other. 

 

So I was sitting across from a couple, and they were complaining about kind of falling out of love. And I'm listening to their story, and I said, "I'm really curious. How did you guys fall in love?" And they're like, "We just fell in love." "Yeah, but what did you do? What were you doing when you fell in love?" And the spark comes into their eyes, and they start talking about hiking together. And that's how they met. And all through dating life, they spent a lot of time hiking and they enjoyed. He says, "See, I used to enjoy following her up the hill." And he said, "We'd be playful, and we loved finding the trails that we wanted to go on and planning it out."

 

And just watching them talking about it, it's like they came alive a little bit. And I said, "When's the last time you guys went hiking?" And the energy in the room drops a bit, and they sit there for a few seconds, and he said, "Wow, I don't think we've been hiking since before we got married." That somehow during their dating life, that was a central part of them being in love with each other. [00:25:42] 

 

But from the moment of the wedding on they've been so busy building a home and building a career and carving out a space in the world for their family that they've not been doing those things that caused them to fall in love with each other. 

 

I think Christ is looking and saying, Remember what you did to fall in love and remember what you did when you were in that early love relationship. You wasted a lot of time together. You pursued each other. You talked all the time to each other. All of those things that you did to fall in love. 

 

And he says, Repent. You've not been doing it. You need to turn things around. You've gotten distracted into doing other well-meaning things but you've stopped doing the things that helped you to fall in love. You stopped pursuing each other. You stopped hiking. Go back and do those things again. So his third step is do them. Go back and do those things again. [00:26:37] 

 

Usually when couples start to really unpack how did we fall in love? What were our attitudes? What were our stances? What were the behaviors, the activities that we did that helped me to go, Oh, I really like you. This kind of person I could spend the rest of my life with and enjoy it. Repent that you've gotten out of the habit of doing those and go back and do them again. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. What are a few common questions both males and females ask during sex therapy? And then what are some of your responses from that point forward? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: The most common question is what we do normal. Am I normal? Am I okay? That changes a little bit depending on the individual, obviously, and the issue that's bringing them into therapy. But probably the most common question is is our level of desire normal? 80% of the time the husband is a higher drive individual and 20% of the time the wife is a higher-drive individual. [00:27:38] 

 

So it shifts up a little bit depending on who the high drive is. But they'll often come in and say is our desire normal? And the low-desire person will often say I don't have any desire. Is that normal? Is it okay? I feel like I'm broken. And my first statement to them is, Why are you in my office? And they're like, Well, because I don't have any desire. But what are you hoping for in being in my office? Well, I want to have the desire for sex. But that's desire. That you want to want is wanting.

 

Often they diminish the type of desire, the type of want that they have. The only desire that's legitimate is the kind of desire I had when I was 16 and horning all the time. Well, I'm sorry, you've got three little kids now. That is not normal to have that. There are some people that have that type of desire. But for most women, especially with little kids at home, they no longer have that type of desire. [00:28:37] 

 

And so what's normal is, Man, I'd really like to want and I choose to move forward, and I hope for the day that I do. Well, that's normal. So helping them to embrace where they're at as normal. Guys asking, you know, How long is too long? Or how long is not enough? Or what frequency is normal is one of the more common, normal kind of questions. 

 

And for that one, it's helping couples to sort through, Well, what would be normal for them? Because I have couples in my office that have sex once a day and really enjoy it. And I have couples that have sex once every four to six weeks and really enjoy it. And both are normal, healthy couples. So what's normal for them? What do they want it to be? What would they be proud of? 

 

I think the second question that I get is, Can we? Can we do this as a couple? Does this work as couples? Again, some of it's going to be very individualized. As a couple sorts through what do they want their relationship to look like, what are their own personal preferences, what helps their heart to feel cared for, what has meaning from their background and tradition, my task is to help them unpack what it means to them. [00:29:49] 

 

But a couple who is really good at communication and is curious about each other can do that on their own. Where if she says, "I don't enjoy that position," really? But I really like that position. Okay, if he moves into a, you have to like what I like, you have to do what I want, they start to tear at the relationship. But if he can say, well, what don't you like about it? Help me to understand, they may be able to problem solve a way that it works. 

 

Or she might go, you know, I'm not saying I don't ever want to do it. You know, every once in a while, I'll do it as a gift to you. But just know that's not a lot of pleasure for me. The pleasure for me is watching you enjoy it. And he has to be okay with that. If they're really talking about it, they can unpack for themselves, is this okay for us to do or not do?

 

Laura Dugger: That's good. That's very helpful to hear. 

 

Some of you have reached out to find specific books or resources that we have mentioned in one of our episodes. That's why I'm so excited to let you know about our new "Resources" tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can now click on our new tab called Resources. There you will find all the resources we've ever mentioned on all the episodes of The Savvy Sauce. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you actually support our work at The Savvy Sauce. 

 

We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode, so you can still access the websites, scripture, and recommended resources when you click on any individual episode. We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned. [00:31:24] 

 

What about a more serious question? For someone who's experienced trauma, what hope do you have to offer them? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I guess two levels of it. One would be just from a scientific therapeutic theory technique, we're getting really good at helping people who have wounds in various areas of their life, especially in the sexual arena, to learn how to heal that and to reclaim those parts of their life. 

 

At a second level, as a Christian therapist, as a pastor, my God is really powerful in His healing ability. He can take the worst trash pits and make them the most gorgeous rose gardens. I love watching in my office as couples truly step in. They lean into it and they decide, you know what, I'm not going to allow the trauma to have control over this part of my relationship. I'm not going to allow the trauma to have control over this part of my life. I'm not going to allow what somebody did to me maybe decades ago, but years ago or months ago to control me today and to take away something that is rich and precious. [00:32:36] 

 

We might not always be able to get rid of all the scars, but we can learn, even with a wound, to really reclaim our arm or our leg or some part of our body that's been traumatized and learn how to work well with it anyways. That's no different for the sexual part of our relationship. There may be a scar there, but that doesn't have to fully limit my ability to truly drink it in, to enjoy it, and to reclaim our sexuality is something that I share with my spouse and it becomes rich and good. 

 

So the invitation would be don't let what happened to you in the past control you today. Get some help and get it with somebody who truly knows what they're doing to step in and find some healing and restoration. 

 

Laura Dugger: It's so good. And I can't imagine the person listening right now that says, that's me and you just gave me hope. So thank you for that. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: And that's critical if you have hope all the way through it. And when it dips, it's okay. Climb back in and keep working on it because it is difficult. [00:33:48] Wounds to the sexual part of our relationship are intense wounds. So sometimes they take a very long time to heal. 

 

Laura Dugger: But if they have somebody in their area, somebody like you that's been trained in this, that is gentle and will help work with them, that would be incredible. 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh, it makes a world of difference. Yes. Having a guide and a cheerleader really helps. 

 

Laura Dugger: Now speaking more about the general population, what's one thing that each spouse can do today to improve their intimate connection? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think what I'd invite, because our sexuality is so much of what happens between us, you know, it is about pursuing what's good for me and what's good for you, but it's also what's good between us, is I'd invite them to do something together. 

 

What I'd invite them to do together is pick a good book on marital sexuality. I have some listed on my website that I highly recommend, but there's just a lot of really good ones out there. My only caution is to choose somebody who's truly trained in sexuality. [00:34:54] Lots of people are writing books on sex because it makes a lot of money. They're filled with a lot of inaccuracies. Choosing somebody who's been trained on sexuality and has written on it, and then sit down and read it out loud to each other. 

 

So pick a time that the kids aren't going to be around or they can be alone and just open up the book and take turns reading. The goal is not to get to the end of the book. The goal is to read a paragraph or two and pause and say, so what do you think? I think this guy's crazy. Nobody thinks that way. Nobody likes that. What do you mean you like that? And just really use it to start a conversation. 

 

Because sex is a form of communication, stepping back and communicating about it, developing a language that they can use with each other, sorting through what they do and don't like, is often done easier with a guide. So use the book as the guide to talk about what do we like, what don't we like, what is our vision for sexuality. [00:35:58] 

 

You know, if they can't find time to sit down and read a book and talk about it, they don't have time to have good sex, so they may have to problem-solve the time. If every time they sit down to read a book together, one of them is falling asleep, well, then we may need to problem-solve the sleep crisis in our marriage. Because if we don't solve that, we can't have good sex. If every time we sit down to read, the kids are climbing in, okay, we need to problem-solve that. 

 

Whatever they run into is going to illustrate the problem that they're likely running into in their sexual relationship. So not only are they learning, not only are they communicating, they're also problem-solving the process. I think it's a quick, simple, but very powerful exercise.

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. We will definitely link to your website in the show notes. But could you just say what that website is?

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. IntimateMarriage.org. And most of the things I've talked about are under the Try This at Home section. And there's just several things that we invite couples to try at home, but it's IntimateMarriage.org. [00:36:59] 

 

Laura Dugger: And will you just share with all of us how you can help any listener grow further in this area of sexual intimacy? 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: In terms of those that are in the area, of course, we have about eight different therapists that work out of our office that are all trained in this. Outside of our area, we do workshops, seminars. And so if they join our email list, they'll learn when I'm coming into an area. 

 

The Passionate Intimacy Workshop is a Friday evening, all day Saturday, and it's a sexual enrichment for Christian couples. So they come in and we talk through the spiritual principles and we help couples to grow in this arena. 

 

The most common thing I hear as couples come out of it is, we're normal, we're okay. And they come out with a vision that's workable and nobody feels broken and nobody feels beaten up or braided. It's designed to truly help them to grow. [00:37:54] 

 

If they want, all of that's available as a downloadable workshop too. So the links are on our website and they can go purchase the workshop and download the printed materials and the exercises and just sit in the safety, security and comfort of their own home and work through the teaching. I love that because they can pause it at any time they want and talk about it. But those are available for couples that just really want to focus in and work on this part of their marriage relationship. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's great. So if you're local to Atlanta, Georgia, you're very blessed and you could schedule an appointment with Dr. Michael Sytsma. But also, it sounds like you've got something for everybody if they want to grow. Plenty of resources available. 

 

Well, as we're wrapping up today, we are called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge or discernment, and we would love to hear some of your insight from your own life to inspire us with our own action item. So, Dr. Mike, as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:38:58] 

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: For me, it's stay curious. We have different stances that we can take in life. We have a critical stance. We have a defensive stance. We have that father type of a stance or boss type of a stance. What does it take to stay curious, to be open, to hearing somebody else's story and somebody else's heart, and to truly deeply care for them?

 

I think we have to stay curious. It's always leaning in and really tell me more about that. How do you think that way? How does that work for you? If we stay curious, it helps us to love well, it helps others to feel nurtured and cared for. It's a richer way to live when you stay in a curious state. 

 

Laura Dugger: Great words of wisdom to end our show today. Thank you again for the years of service you've put in. This is such an important topic, and I love your approach and your patience and your gentle presence. And I just want to say thank you for joining us today.

 

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks, Laura. [00:39:56] 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:41:01] 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:42:02] 

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:43:00] 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.