76 Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

76. Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Proverbs 13:12 (NIV) “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.”

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese is a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist with special training in sex education from a Christian perspective. She is also a wife and a lover of coffee, good books and travel. She is currently involved in a project with Dr. Rosenau, author of Celebration of Sex, to teach teens how to enjoy their friendships and dating relationships while holding to Christian convictions. Additionally, she serves on the advisory board at Millennials for Marriage- a group that aims to encourage millennials to be equipped for marriage. 

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese’s Website

The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile

Torn Asunder by David M. Carder & Duncan Jaenicke

John Gottman’s website

 

Previous Episodes on The Enneagram with Your Enneagram Coach, Beth McCord: 

Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life

Deep Dive into the Enneagram

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Cookery Inc

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: If you love to cook or know someone who does, then you should check out The Cookery, Inc. in Morton. Whether you're new to the culinary world or a pro just looking for some modern tips, they have the class for you. All their classes are taught by trained chefs and all classes finish with a gourmet meal. Visit them today at thecookeryinc.com. That's thecookeryinc.com. 

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

Today I am thrilled to welcome back Dr. Jessica McCleese. She is a wife, licensed psychologist, certified sex therapist, and certified sexual educator. We are going to talk about what to do in seasons when marriage is not going well, such as ongoing high conflict, infidelity, and infertility. These are heavy topics, yet I hope that you feel supported if you're facing this right now in your marriage. [00:01:27] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back, Dr. McCleese. 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Thanks so much for having me again. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, we're thrilled that you could join us again. For those who missed our previous episode, would you mind telling us more about yourself? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am a licensed psychologist in the state of Virginia and I'm also a certified sex therapist. All that came about really I have a history of my own personal stories of sexual trauma and molestation and things like that. And those things really drove me to trying to seek a little bit of help. 

 

What's funny is I actually had a roommate in college. We lived together for a year and I probably, if you took that whole year and all of the time we spoke, it probably didn't even equal more than an hour and a half, which is funny because I'm quite talkative now and I do it for a living. But that year that we had together, I probably didn't speak to her more than an hour and a half total. 

 

She at one point had told me that I needed to get some counseling because clearly I had some issues. And I think she said it in a really nice and loving way. [00:02:27] But I had told her, "If you set it up, I'll go." And in my mind, I kind of thought she wouldn't care enough to set it up. So I thought I was kind of getting out of having to go. But she did set it up that day, came home, handed me a piece of paper, and said, "Well, here's your first appointment." 

 

I went into that session, and I don't know what happened in the session. I guess it was God giving wisdom to my counselor. But within I don't know, maybe 10 minutes, it seemed like almost immediate, he asked me, or he told me, I think, "You've been sexually abused, haven't you?" And that's what started my process of healing and eventually me changing my degree plan. So I had started out going into youth ministry, and that changed my degree plan eventually to go into counseling when I realized how helpful it was. 

 

So quite a journey there. But because of my own abuse in the past and because of just what I saw in family and friendship relationships, I really got a heart for marriage, and I really got a heart for wanting to help people in their sexual lives so that they can learn to be sexually whole. 

 

Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for the vulnerability and sharing the true backstory. As a therapist, where do you begin when a couple does come in to see you and they've been experiencing a long season of high conflict? [00:03:35] 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I do work with a lot of couples. Probably about 80% of my caseload are couples that are coming in and most of the time it's high conflict. The reason I say most of the time is because for most couples, they actually don't seek any kind of counseling or therapy help until they've been trying for up to about five years and finding that whatever they're putting into place just simply isn't working. 

 

Most of the people that come to see me are still committed to one another, but they're at a place where they actually don't feel like their marriage can be saved because they've tried for so long and they haven't seen any results. 

 

One of the first things I do is I try to get a good history of the relationship. So I want to know how long a couple has dated, why they originally got together to begin with, what attracted them to one another. I like to look at ups and downs of their relationship. I'm basically getting a bird's-eye view of their entire history together. 

 

So we'll talk about ups and downs, what have been the highlights, what have been the really painful places for you guys. And then we learn a little bit about conflict resolution together. So I'll ask them, what does it look like when you guys argue? Who takes the lead in asking for forgiveness or reconciliation? [00:04:41] 

 

So I'm looking for behavioral patterns that the couple has with one another. And so we'll look through those different stages of the relationship and see when it's been probably at the easiest and when it's been at the hardest. Look for anything that they can hold onto as positives also during the relationship. 

 

So if a couple's going to stay together, like I said, it could be up to five years before they come in to seek professional counseling, and so if they've stayed together through high conflict, they obviously want to stay together. There's something that says we should continue this, even if it's really hard. So we look for those positive things of what's happening. 

 

For some couples, it's simply that we parent well together, and that's all that they can offer me. For some couples, it might be, well, we both love Jesus, and He says you should stay together, so we're trying. And sometimes that's all they have is their faith background to stand on. For some couples it's "we get along well when we're alone, but if other people around, for some reason, the tension rises, and we just can't seem to stand each other." 

 

So it just really depends. But we look for the positives that each person has. For some couples, I've had couples that have a lot of fun together, but they can't do anything serious. [00:05:44] So making decisions or having hard conversations doesn't work for them, but generally speaking, they enjoy one another. Some couples are heavily committed to one another but they actually don't enjoy each other at all. 

 

And so it really depends on the starting place for each couple which can be different from one couple to the next. But we look for positives mainly and that's what helps us kind of hold on to something in the midst of figuring out how to problem-solve as well. So I have several techniques that I walk couples through once I see what their actual difficulty is that they're bringing to this session. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's go further into some of those techniques then. If one of those couples comes in to see you and they want to start moving in the right direction, how do you help them get on the right track? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I am actually becoming a really big fan of something called the Enneagram. You can actually take a test online to see what your Enneagram type is. And it's a cheap test. It's only 12 bucks. So that's a really great place to start for a couple. [00:06:43] 

 

This particular measure, it gives you somewhere around 10 pages of single-spaced text telling you about your personality. Someone asked me recently if it was similar to the Myers-Briggs, and I would say not really. Like, it does give you a type like the Myers-Briggs does, but it's got much more information that it's giving you. 

 

What's unique about the Enneagram is it looks kind of at how our personalities affect us as far as what I would call our tendency to live in sin. We're all sinners, and so we have these things that we bring to our relationships because of our imperfections and because of our sin nature. The Enneagram kind of gives us a chance to look at what are those places that hold you the deepest and the darkest? What are those places where you're most prone to sin? 

 

So, for instance, anger is a sin. Well, at least when we act in anger. Feeling anger is not a sin. But if we're yelling at one another and name-calling, that would be a sin. There are things like pride that can be very sinful for people. There can be arrogance. Things like that. [00:07:42] So what it does is it kind of looks at what your human nature brings to the equation. 

 

And oftentimes when couples are in high conflict, it's because they're each bringing these things to the relationship that cause tension. And they don't need to, but they're bringing things that directly feel like an attack to their spouse. So what we try to look at is what those things are that feels like you're being attacked. 

 

So often couples will tell you, no, you know, I don't think that my spouse is just out to get me or wants to make my life miserable. But in the way they describe conflict, it sounds like that's exactly what they feel. So there's this dissonance that rests within each individual in the couple where they say, no, I know you're not out to get me, but by golly, it feels like you're out to get me and you're always against me and you're not a team player. 

 

So what we try to do is remove those things by figuring out what is that underlying personality feature in you that causes tension in your spouse. Once we learn those things, we can prayerfully start getting rid of some of those more negative features of ourselves. Because we all have it. We're born into sin and we live with a brokenness. [00:08:43] 

 

So we have to constantly let Christ work in us. And in the midst of Him working in us, we have to kind of understand what our tendencies are that most often holds me captive. Because until you can figure that out and let Christ start working on you, you're not going to have a successful relationship. So that's a big piece, is the Enneagram. 

 

Then I'm really big on personal responsibility. So any kind of fight or any kind of conflict that's happening in a couple, we each have our own personal responsibility that we're bringing to that relationship. So my couples that I work with learn quickly that as we're doing problem-solving, I keep going back to, Now hold on, what can you do differently? Not what you want your spouse to do differently. What can you do differently to make this a better situation? 

 

So that's a big part of what my work is, is constantly helping people look at what they personally need to resolve in their own lives to have a stronger relationship with their spouse. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. It's so empowering to each person because then they have a sense of control because they can work on themselves when you can't control the other person. [00:09:46] I love that you also mentioned the Enneagram. If anybody's curious, do you mind sharing your number with us? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. So I'm a 5. If you want to know more about a 5, you can actually read a book called The Road Back to You, and it'll help you. But I'm going to give you just kind of a little bit of an understanding of what that means. 

 

One of the things that's big for me is I am a listener, which can be good. I mean, it helps me in the world of therapy. But also one of the more negative sides of that is it means it's hard for me to express my own needs at times because I'd rather just sit back and listen. 

 

So, of course, that can cause an issue because it can cause resentment if I'm not careful about it because I want to know why people aren't asking what I need or I'm going to want to know why people aren't taking care of what I would consider the things that anybody should know that are important to me. So that can be an issue where it kind of, you know, can hurt me. So that's definitely a thing. 

 

Probably one of the bigger ugly things is that I have a tendency to not want to involve others in my life to help take care of me. [00:10:46] That's something I've had to learn, especially in times of crisis, that I need other people, that I don't need to retreat and just try to do it all on my own. 

 

So that's one of the things about a five also is we really think that we can just kind of do our own thing and not involve others. But the ugly side of that is we can think that of others also. We think others can do their own thing and take care of themselves. And so there's a push sometimes probably in the world of counseling where I might push people a little harder than I should have. "You can do this." 

 

I try to make it always sound really encouraging, but that would be an area of weakness where I have to watch for it and make sure I'm not trying to push too hard for people, but really allowing them to work in their strength as well. 

 

So this is one of the reasons why the Enneagram is helpful, because I can look at my own faults and learn to work on those with Christ's help to make them more of a strength, which, of course, sounds like a good interview question, right? So here's my weakness, but this is how I make it a strength. But that's really what the Enneagram is supposed to do, is to help you get to that place. 

 

I like to sit back and watch people instead of be involved with people. [00:11:46] And so that obviously can be an issue. Something I had to learn early on in my marriage, how not to let that interfere with our relationship and our coming together. So it's things like that why I think the Enneagram is important. 

 

There's way more features. Those are just a few I just threw out. But that's part of why I think it's helpful for couples to know their type, because they can see where they're hurting one another. But the idea behind that also is not to sit in this place of, well, I'm a five, so it's just who I am. But instead to say, Okay, I know this is a weakness of mine, and I know this is something that can impact us negatively. So since that's the case, I need to come a little closer and work on those things so that I can have a relationship with you."

 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Thank you for sharing. 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. 

 

Laura Dugger: What is some common homework that you suggest for your clients as they do pursue healthy conflict resolution? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: I always recommend a date night once a week. That's just an absolute necessity. I have plenty of couples that tell me that they don't have time for date night. But I constantly say, We got to do that. We got to find time together. [00:12:50] 

 

And when you're doing date night, you're not allowed to have any arguments. If something comes up you write it down on a piece of paper and you come back to that in another moment that we call "couch time". I'm going to explain that in a minute. But date night is just for date night.

 

So often when we're in conflict, we don't want to have our moments of letting those things go and that's part of how it builds, but we really need those moments just to connect as friends and be kind of lovers. That doesn't necessarily mean sex, but just being intimately connected with one another. So that's one part is date night where no conflict is allowed. 

 

Then what I call "couch time" is where you sit down on the couch and you take maybe 20 minutes and you each note some things that need to be worked on in the relationship. and you come up with a way to work on it. So your conflict resolution is actually limited to certain times that you put together as this is when we're going to work on things. 

 

Now, every couple has conflict from time to time, and as you learn to resolve it, you don't necessarily have to say, Okay, Thursday at five, we're going to have our conflict resolution session. You can resolve it then. But for couples that are in high conflict, I do say, let's hold all conflict aside and we address it at one time during the week. [00:13:59] And we limit that time. Because the idea is to not get you so engulfed in that that you can't live your life anymore. 

 

Sometimes that means the only time we're going to address conflict is in the office for a few weeks until you guys gain some skills where you can do that on your own. So sometimes couples... that's what I'll tell them is let's just do the conflict resolution here in the office so that you guys will feel more comfortable with this piece. 

 

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Laura Dugger: What encouragement do you have for couples who have experienced infidelity? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Gosh, that's such a big one. I would say probably one of my favorite resources for couples that have experienced infidelity is a book called Torn Asunder. That would be probably one of my top things I would tell couples, Grab that book, start reading through it, because there's just a whole world of things that couples need to work through when infidelity has been in their relationship. That's a really excellent resource. 

 

One of the things that we need to do pretty quickly is... first of all, don't make big decisions in that first year. If you find out that your spouse has had an affair and you're thinking, Well, I don't know if I want to stay or not, I always tell couples, don't make a knee-jerk reaction here. So if you find out on a Friday night, my goodness, don't go to the attorney on Monday and start the divorce process. You need to give yourself time to actually really think about and process the situation. The knee-jerk reaction is oftentimes something that people want to jump into. [00:17:04] 

 

As you start that process, look at the book Torn Asunder, look at going to a Christian counselor. But the big thing is we want to take an entire assessment of your relationship. The same thing that I would do with couples when it's heavy conflict resolution time and we need to look through those things, we're going to do the same thing in an affair. 

 

We're going to look at, you know, what was your dating relationship like? What were the early years like? What has it been like since then? Highs and lows. And we're going to see what has happened in your relationship that caused you not to be safeguarded. 

 

There's never been a couple get married and think, "Hey, you know, in a couple of years, I guess I'll have an affair. We'll work through that." It's just not expected when you get married. So instead, we have to look at what kind of came against you, what boundaries weren't in place that need to be in place. 

 

Most couples never think we need to sit down and have a discussion about what we can and can't do as a couple. Most couples never think about how do we safeguard ourselves from an affair because most people just don't expect that's going to happen in their relationship. [00:18:02] 

 

One of the things that couples have that have been through an affair that no other couple has is they realize how tender that can be and how much could come against them as a couple. And so they understand how to start setting boundaries. But really the best way to safeguard your relationship is to set those boundaries and figure out what feels comfortable and what doesn't and figure out how to have a healthy relationship long before anything comes against you where an affair has happened. 

 

Laura Dugger: I love that point. Do you have any specific examples that come to mind of boundaries that your clients have put in place to help safeguard their own marriages? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Yeah. So you know what? Mike Pence, I don't know, gosh, quite some time ago, but there is an article out about him and some boundaries he had put in place. And I saw a lot of people talking about how weak he must be to put those boundaries up. They gave him all kinds of ugly names. But the reality is he and his wife had set up some pretty great boundaries. 

 

Some of the boundaries that I think are helpful is just to really safeguard any relationships where you're talking to the opposite sex more often than you need to. [00:19:05] I know that's really ambiguous, but... let me put it this way. Let me give you some that me and my husband have, and maybe that'll help. 

 

There's never been an affair in our history, but we just know we want to safeguard ourselves. And so some of the things we do is I'm not alone with another male, not to eat dinner, not to go out for coffee. Now, I've done some of that for marketing purposes, but when I do, I ask my husband first, I tell him where we're going to be, and we go out for just one hour to talk about how to pass business to one another, okay? And then I tell my husband about that. 

 

So there are times when I do that from a business standpoint, and I know there are other people that have business relationships. Like attorneys, for instance, they're going to meet with people alone because that's what you do as an attorney. You don't broadcast your meetings. There are people in therapy offices like myself. I mean, I meet with the door closed in a therapy office. So I know that sometimes work interferes with that kind of a relationship. But you want to put into place where you're not spending time alone with somebody. 

 

We think sometimes that if my relationship is good, I don't have to worry necessarily about a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. [00:20:05] But the truth is attraction starts because we spend a lot of time together. So attraction starts because we pass each other often and we start talking more often. Attraction starts because we develop a relationship or I'm telling you about my life and you're telling me about yours. So what we want to do is just safeguard that. 

 

Then if you feel any attraction rising for somebody else... Again, that's part of our human nature. So if you feel attraction rising to somebody else to really have a sit down with a good close friend and maybe even your spouse to say, "Look, I'm finding myself attracted to this person. We need to not spend time with them." 

 

That could even be if my husband and I have friends that are a couple friends of ours, we would have to spend less time with them if either one of us had an attraction to them. Now, we probably wouldn't tell the other couple, right, because we're not trying to start anything up. But really that honesty with one another of, hey, I'm human, I can be weak in my humanity, and there are times when I might feel attractions for other people. 

 

Because feeling an attraction is not a sin at all. [00:21:04] That's just part of our human nature. That's how God created us, to notice one another. But acting on any attraction is a sin. I mean, simple actions, like just thinking about what it would be like to be with them, and not even a romantic sense, but what would it be like for my husband to be so and so instead of the one I have. That is a sinful interaction, because you're allowing yourself to start fantasizing about a relationship you're not supposed to have. 

 

Laura Dugger: What about the couple that is walking through something like this? We would love to offer hope and encouragement to the couple listening right now that's in the midst of this struggle. So do you have any stories or examples of couples who are better off after working through this in their own marriage? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Oh goodness, yes. So what's interesting is if you survey couples, like if you survey a thousand couples, couples that have worked through an affair and gotten to the other side are going to report higher levels of happiness than couples that have never been through an affair.

 

John Gottman has talked about this too. He kind of laughs and says but this is no reason to have an affair. [00:22:05] And it's true. But what happens with couples that have been through an affair is they have to face reality that the relationship is really tender and that it could be broken. 

 

And in that time of facing reality, they start looking at their entire history of where have we hurt one another? Where have our weaknesses been? Where have I not asked for forgiveness for places I've done wrong to you? Where do I need reconciliation? What boundaries do I need to feel safe? 

 

There's a lot of stuff they work on where all of a sudden they're in a place where they can say, you know what, I feel completely safe with you because I know that you're going to do me right. I know that I can come to you and tell you when I have an issue or a problem. So they're at a place that a lot of couples sadly never get because many couples never realize the deep need for those conversations.

 

So, couples that are working through an affair or think, Gosh, I don't know if my relationship can be healed because we had an affair, my heart's cry is that those couples would seek out Christian counseling and start working through that process. Because the truth is couples that have been through an affair and will seek recovery, they really do well if they'll go through that process. [00:23:09] 

 

Laura Dugger: That is really encouraging. You guys, you seriously do not want to miss out on our patron guest from September, Tracey LeGrand. She's a returning guest, but this episode is available to paying patrons only. She teaches us more about the science of female orgasm, shares how couples can enjoy a more pleasure-filled sex life, and she brings some scripture to life in a new way I've never considered. 

 

Please don't miss out. Pledge $5 today and receive this episode and many others when you visit thesavvysauce.com and click on our Patreon tab, then click "Join Patreon here". If you join before November 1st, you're going to receive an extra surprise. We know you're gonna love it. 

 

Another difficult part of marriage can come in when couples experience infertility. What ways have you witnessed this affecting a marriage? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: That's actually an area that my husband and I struggled with as well. I write about that on my blog. There's a lot of areas where that can impact the marriage pretty negatively. [00:24:12] So couples that experience infertility, if they're trying really hard to time intercourse and make sure that they can get pregnant, one of the big struggles they can have is all of a sudden any kind of sexual interaction feels a little forced. 

 

It feels like, well, you've got to wait until we're fertile, so let's not have sex tonight, even though we both want to. Then it might be the next night, "Hey, I know we're both really tired, but we got to do this." So it becomes almost a checklist task. That's one of the ways that it can really hurt couples.

 

Another is just the shared grief. When we're grieving in our relationships because something horrible has happened in our lives, we just have a hard time connecting. So some couples will find that those areas of grief help them to connect in a greater way than they ever have before. But sometimes it actually becomes kind of a wedge. And when it becomes a wedge within the couple where they each struggle to connect or to kind of let each other in emotionally, then you're going to see more difficulties in the relationship. 

 

For infertility, you're kind of going through the grieving process every month. And especially if for some reason a woman's period is a little late, [00:25:16] and then she starts, there can be that grief of "I really thought that this was the month. I really thought we were going to make this big announcement. This is horribly depressing."

 

And for men, it can feel that way too. That constant "I'm watching my wife here go through these horrible struggles. I'm going through them myself. How can I be the protector and take care of her when I can't even take care of my own emotional side? So it just kind of becomes a lot of upheaval and emotional discomfort during those times.

 

Those are the two ways I would say. So difficulty with the intimacy and difficulty because of the emotions that can impact a couple pretty negatively.

 

Laura Dugger:  And as you talk about coming together in grief, what if both of those spouses process their grief very differently? Let's just say one doesn't like to talk about it and one needs to verbally process, how would you coach them? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: In those cases, I would say it's a good time to really hang on to your same-sex friendships. For instance, I'm definitely more verbal than my husband. Now, that doesn't mean that he doesn't talk to me. He does. [00:26:19] But if we look at how many words we each need, I need far more than he does. So we process a little differently. He's more internal. I'm probably a little more external in my need for processing. 

 

So some of the ways for couples, if they're doing that, or if they have that kind of a connection where one is more verbal and one is more "I need time to myself," I would encourage them, for the one that's more verbal, to really have a good set of close same-sex friends where you can process a lot of those emotions and what's going on so that when you go to your spouse, you have more of like the condensed Reader's Digest version of maybe two to three sentences instead of two hours of emoting.

 

That's not wrong to do with your friends, right? So that's a good thing. And it's not wrong with your spouse to be in a place where you can connect with them more fully because you're on kind of a same level playing field there. 

 

Then for the person who likes to process more internally, even though it's not maybe your preferred way of doing things, I would say for that person to make sure that you're pushing yourself to talk about what's going on, even if that means that you need to write it out at first, or even if you need to sit for an hour and think, okay, what are my big emotions for this particular situation, and then bring that to your spouse. [00:27:31] 

 

Because really both of you do need to still connect emotionally and connect heart-to-heart by talking to one another. But when you both just do it differently, it is okay to seek some outside friendships before having those conversations with your spouse. 

 

Laura Dugger: This is so helpful. While we're on this topic, it's unique because it can also affect friendship. So what helpful tips do you have for people on both sides of this equation, both the couple facing infertility and they're friends of that couple, especially if they have children? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: My husband and I have missed a few kids' birthday parties because we've had times, you know, where we just couldn't do it. We couldn't hang out with friends, even though we love our friends, because it was incredibly painful. 

 

So I would say if you're going through infertility, and really my husband and I now are at a place where we're beyond the really deep difficulties of it, so we're at the place we can go to the kids' birthday parties, we can celebrate with our friends. We're good there. There's still a tenderness where we would like to have our own biological children one day, and then probably adoption is actually what we'll do. [00:28:34] 

 

But even with that, we've crossed the bridge where we can actually connect more. But in those places where we couldn't, and what I believe is helpful for other couples, is to just really know where you're at. And so if you're at a place where you just can't connect right now to someone because they have kids running around and it's really heavy for you, like especially if you're at that place where you thought it was happening this month and then you realize it's not, don't go to the birthday party. It's okay. Skip it out. 

 

Hopefully, your friends are in a place where they can understand, where you can let them know, Hey, I love you and I want to celebrate with you, but today is a hard day and I need some space. My hope would be that you'd be able to let your friends know that and they'd be able to sit with you in that place and be okay with it. But I would say, know yourself, first of all. Know where your emotions are. 

 

Then for friends of people that are going through infertility, I have heard everything from, God opens and closes the womb, so let's pray, as if, you know, my husband and I had never thought to pray about it. I've heard people give us advice about how often we need to have sex, which is really weird to tell your friends and start asking about those things. People don't typically ask about frequency in your marriage. So I would say stay away from those questions. [00:29:39] 

 

I've heard a lot of people talk about, Hey, if you just read this book, or I have a friend that that happened to, and then they adopted and then they got pregnant. So people try to offer all this advice when in reality, if you're a friend of somebody who's having infertility issues, I would encourage you just sit with them. Just sit with them and say, Man, you're right, this is hard. Gosh, I hate that you're going through this. Can I pray for you? Can I hug on you? Like I would say, sit in that place where you can just be with your friend and let them grieve. 

 

It's just not fun to be sitting in grief and then people give you all their problem-solving ways of how one day it might be better Or I've had people pray and say, "Oh, no, I know it's gonna happen. God has shown me. "Well, the reality is sometimes it doesn't happen for people. Sometimes people never have kids. And that's okay. They can still have a very good life without having their own children. But in the midst of that they just need to know that they're loved and they're cared for and that even if that pain exists, they can still have a good life. So if you're in the place where you're trying to help your friends, what I would say is just love on them, be okay sitting in their grief with them. [00:30:43] 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, you've just been so incredibly helpful today. There's so much more that we could cover on all of these topics. But if listeners do want to connect with you further, whether that's scheduling an appointment or reading your blog, where can they find you? 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. Sure. You can go to BeFullyWell.com, and that is B like the word, B-E. So BeFullyWell.com, and you can find all of my information on there. Social media sites are listed there, my articles are listed there, and even contact information is listed at the top and the bottom of the page where you can connect right away with me. 

 

Laura Dugger: We've covered quite a few deep and heavier topics, and I like to end with a playful question. We are called The Savvy Sauce here because "savvy" means practical knowledge. So Dr. McCleese, what is your Savvy Sauce?

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: My website kind of tells you "be fully well". I'm a big fan of looking at the entire system. So even if you were to come to counseling with me because you have conflict in your relationship, I'm gonna want to know from a physical standpoint if you're taking care of yourself, I'm gonna want to know emotionally speaking if you're giving yourself time to care for your soul. And spiritually, I'm gonna wonder how you're doing. So I don't limit it just to the relationship. [00:32:00] 

 

So I would say look at all four areas of your life. So physical, that's diet and exercise, right? So diet and exercise, mood-wise, that's the place emotionally, how am I functioning? Relationally, how do I look at my relationships with others? Not just with your spouse, but with others, how do I function? And then spiritually, Are there things that I used to enjoy doing with God that I don't do anymore? So have I broken away from some of my spiritual roots?

 

We want to look at each of those areas and see which one is the lowest functioning right now, which one needs the most care? Then I would say hit that one for a little while, even if it's just a week or two where you really look at what can I do differently in this area. So we'll just go with spirituality. So maybe you know, I am just not quite where I want to be spiritually speaking, then I would say take a couple of weeks and really figure out how can I start making sure I'm doing a devotional in the morning. 

 

What day can I put aside where maybe I have an hour during that day where I can really just focus on loving God and maybe getting back to the basics of some of my scripture reading, or spending some time in prayer, or even just listening to some worship music? Then you would do that with each area of your life and see what's the one that I need to work on this week, and then what's one thing I can do to work on that. So not all at once, that's way overwhelming, but just one piece of that, what should I do this week? [00:33:18] 

 

Laura Dugger: You articulate things so well, and you've just given us extremely practical tips to apply today. Thank you so much for sharing all of your help and hope for everyone listening today. 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure thing. Thank you for having me. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:34:18] 

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:22] 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:22] 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.