63 Maximizing Sexual Intimacy During the 3 Most Challenging Seasons in Marriage with Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults

 

63. Maximizing Sexual Intimacy During the 3 Most Challenging Seasons in Marriage with Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents. 

 

Song of Solomon 1:2 “Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth - for your love is more delightful than wine."

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website

Books by Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:

Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women

The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex

Restoring the Pleasure

The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment

Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today 

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sexual Wholeness 

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:07] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

As a teacher or counselor, have you ever wished you could get more training on healthy sexuality or to have better skills in helping people deal with the sexual part of their lives? Sexual Wholeness is a Christian teaching organization desiring to help you accomplish this goal through classes and helpful resources. Visit them online at sexualwholeness.com. 

We enjoyed Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner so much on a previous episode that we decided to bring them back to The Savvy Sauce. The Penners are best known for their pioneer work in helping people embrace sex as good and of God. 

Today we discuss problems and solutions related to sexual intimacy that arise in various seasons of marriage. [00:01:18] We're going to cover the times of becoming new parents, having teenage children, and effects from aging. Prepare to learn a lot. 

Hello, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner. 

Joyce Penner: Hello there. We're so excited to be with you. 

Laura Dugger: Well, thanks for joining again here at The Savvy Sauce. If anyone missed our previous recording together, could you both just share a bit about yourselves and the work that you do? 

Dr. Clifford: Sure. We didn't grow up thinking that we were gonna be sex therapists. In fact, we both grew up as men [00:01:51] and nights and we did not have it written in our high school yearbook that this is what we're gonna strive for. We can assure you that. 

Joyce Penner: We are both pursuing our individual professions. I was a nursing professor. And Cal State LAN was actually in charge of developing the curriculum for a new school of nursing at Azusa Pacific University here in California. 

Dr. Clifford: Which I should quickly say… which is now ranked as one of the top ten nursing schools in the nation. 

Joyce Penner: Just came out. 

Dr. Clifford: So, that's a proud thing. As a result of my being asked to talk to a group of women about talking to their kids about sex, and then being asked to teach a course for women on sexual adjustment in marriage, we joined our professions because I didn't want to do it alone on the subject that I wasn't feeling like I was that much of an expert on.

And so we started teaching in 1975. So this is 43 years ago. [00:02:54] 

Joyce Penner: We're kind of known as the pioneers in the field of helping the church integrate sexuality as a gift from God. 

Dr. Clifford: Then we got trained so that we had some real knowledge about this area. Then in 1979-80 we were asked to write our first book, The Gift of Sex. Our most recent books, our 10th and 11th book just came out this past September. Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex. 

Joyce Penner: But each step of the way we feel like we have been called and led to this and see it as such a gift for us personally that we have followed that leading. It's been very fulfilling to see that we can make a difference in couples lives and there's a lot of hope when things aren't going the way you want them to go. 

Dr. Clifford: One of the delights has been that since we do this together we've gotten to go all over the world teaching this, from Singapore to Indonesia to Africa, Europe, all over. So it's been a delightful life even though it wasn't what we planned, wasn't what my mother approved of. [00:04:08] 

Laura Dugger: Glad for your work and contribution. Let's just dive right into a specific season that presents many challenges in intimacy. Because a lot of our listeners are new moms or moms with children still at home. So maybe for that first-time mom, what can she expect after childbirth? 

Joyce Penner: We always say just to review that the three seasons that are probably the most difficult are when you first have children, then when the children become teenagers, and then health changes of aging. So those are probably the three most challenging. 

So let's talk to new moms first. The statistics show that after the first child, or even maybe the beginning of the first pregnancy, sexual frequency goes down significantly. 

Dr. Clifford: Well, the research shows it goes to about half of what it was before. This is pretty common. We're not saying that's how it should be or that that's an excuse, but it is a fact. And why is that? Because the woman's focus obviously changes to this little baby inside her or the one that's crying in the next room or the one that's nursing off of her. [00:05:19] 

Joyce Penner: Well, and the couple's focus changes too, not just hers. 

Dr. Clifford: That's right. 

Joyce Penner: But then her body changes, and the hormones change, and especially with breastfeeding. To breastfeed you have to have large surge of prolactin, and prolactin shuts down sexual desire and response. And so all of that energy goes into nursing, feeding the baby, and all of that hormonal surge. 

Dr. Clifford: Well, and then you may have experienced some physical trauma in the birth that causes pain when a couple reunites. Digressing maybe a little bit here. When a couple is gonna have their first sexual experience after they had a baby, we always encourage them to take it almost like a new experience, like a wedding night experience where they're gonna come at it very thoughtfully and slowly guided by the woman and perhaps not even end up having sexual intercourse with the first sexual contact and move into it very much like we talk about in our book getting your sex life off to a great start. 

Joyce Penner: So that if there is pain or changes that have happened, which, well, there will be changes that have happened in the whole sexual birth passageway, so those things have to be accommodated for those changes. And making sure it's a positive experience. [00:06:43] 

The main thing we recommend during those years is to keep connected, to be intentional about your sex life, to be intentional about staying connected sexually, even if it isn't that you're having actual sexual intercourse as frequently, making sure that you make it the best it can be given your reality.

Dr. Clifford: And this is often when our sexual experiences shift from growing out of interest and desire and shift to them happening out of a decision for them to happen. See, all of us would like to have our sexual experiences when we're both turned on and both want it. That's the most fun. But once babies come along or the husband is working later, the wife is working late, or whatever it may be-

Joyce Penner: The external stresses of life pull your energy away from being intimate with each other

Dr. Clifford: Then it is most likely to happen by decision, because if you just waiting for desire it may be a long wait. But if you decide you're gonna be sexual and then set it up in the best way it possibly can under your circumstances, then it can bring about interest and desire as you get into the experience itself. [00:08:10] 

Joyce Penner: So in other words, taking time in your life to determine when you're going to be together and how you're going to make it happen and who's going to initiate. Babies seem to know when their mom and dad want to have sex. If they've been sleeping through the night, that's sure the time they're going to wake up and cry. 

Dr. Clifford: Yeah, they seem to have some kind of radar that picks that up. But the main point is that once you get into the stressful part of life, like with kids, then it is most likely that it's going to happen because you decide for it to happen rather than just out of the spontaneous passion and desire. 

Laura Dugger: I love that you say you'll still enjoy it even when you decide, but that you're more likely to enjoy it if you've decided ahead of time. And sometimes once you're already in that mode, the arousal may come after stimulation. 

Joyce Penner: Yes. Yeah. You may not move into it feeling like it, but when you have the time to cuddle, to be close, if there isn't demand and it's mutual and you're both going for it, and you're both free to allow yourselves to move as you're ready, and there's that freedom with each other, then it usually ends up being very positive. [00:09:25] 

We just have to change our expectations. If you're thinking that you're going to wait until it's the way it was before you had kids, as Cliff said, you'll do a lot of waiting. 

Dr. Clifford: Now, I think we need to specifically address the pain issue though. 

Joyce Penner: Right, yes. 

Dr. Clifford: Because of episiotomy or whatever happened during the birth time-

Joyce Penner: Any tearing, any trauma. 

Dr. Clifford: And even if it was a cesarean, then you've got the incision kind of issues. So let's talk about that. 

Joyce Penner: Well, the main thing we want to say there, do not continue any sexual activity that triggers pain because pain perpetuates more pain. It's just like when people have their back go out, they give muscle relaxant. Because when your back hurts, if you move or sit in a certain position, you tense your muscles. The more you tense your muscles, the more it hurts. So it makes it worse and worse rather than getting better. 

The same thing is true with vaginal pain. If it hurts and you keep doing it, the pain's going to get worse and worse, not better. [00:10:30] 

Dr. Clifford: Well, and then, obviously, that will reduce desire, and in all likelihood will even reduce arousal, because you're not likely to get aroused when it's hurting, and for sure you're not going to have an orgasm when it's hurting. 

Joyce Penner: You know, do you choose to go to the dentist? Yes, because you need to. But you don't need to have sex with pain. 

Laura Dugger: That's good. And so that may be a time, if somebody is listening to this and that's their experience right now, we would certainly recommend reaching out for professional help. And there is hope. 

Joyce Penner: Yes. That's for sure. There is help. The most effective help available today for pain with sex is pelvic floor physical therapy. And you can go to pelvicpain.org and find a provider in your area. 

Dr. Clifford: These are people who are specifically trained to deal with the muscles in the pelvic region. So they can identify the source of the pain and work with a physician and a therapist or whatever to help you get past that pain so that you can move on to an enjoyable, pain-free sexual experience. [00:11:41] 

Joyce Penner: But in today's world, when somebody comes to us with pain, we start with referring them to a pelvic floor physical therapist. 

Laura Dugger: That's very helpful. You mentioned another stage where a lot of people say it's difficult is when their children become teenagers. 

Dr. Clifford: Yeah. One of the main reasons for that is because they're up all night. 

Joyce Penner: You don't get any sleep. You're helping with homework. 

Dr. Clifford: You don't want to go to bed before they go to bed, or whatever your system is, and so they may be up till one o'clock, and not a lot of good sexual activity happens after midnight, you know? 

Joyce Penner: And then you never know for sure when they're going to come home, so you don't want to be in the middle of the sexual experience, or they're studying in the bedroom next door. 

It is okay to tell your kids, you don't want to draw them into your sex life, but to tell them, you know, mom and dad need some privacy. We're taking some time for ourselves this evening. If you guys can do your homework out here or whatever your house setup is. 

You don't announce we're having sex, but they probably catch on and it's probably good that they know that you have an ongoing relationship because if you're teaching them to wait for marriage for sex and then they think it doesn't happen in marriage, what are they waiting for? So it's good that they know you are still connected and enjoying each other. [00:13:02] 

Dr. Clifford: We had also mentioned the fact of what happens with aging. Let's talk first about what happens for women because they have a more distinct marker in their physical process with menopause. 

Joyce Penner: Yes. And with menopause, with the decrease in estrogen and progesterone, two of the hormones, the woman has all the changes of menopause, but with that often comes vaginal atrophy or thinning of the vaginal walls and dryness and all of that can affect the comfort of the sexual experience. 

Now, one thing that often has been missed is women keep secreting testosterone, the sexual drive hormone, if they still have their ovaries. 

Dr. Clifford: Even if they've had a hysterectomy and the uterus was removed, if the ovaries were kept, then the testosterone is still being produced. 

Joyce Penner: So that can be an important decision for women if they're having surgery. Sometimes women have to have their ovaries removed if they have ovarian cancer in their history or they're test positive for the gene for that. [00:14:09] You know, there are reasons the ovaries are removed. But if it's possible to keep your ovaries and not a health hazard, that is a benefit sexually. 

But with those changes, there are some things that can be done, even if you've had to have surgery. There's a new product that has to be prescribed, so you'd have to ask your physician about that, see if you qualify for it. But it's called Intrarosa, I-N-T-R-A, R-O-S-A, all one word. It's inserted into the vagina at bedtime, not before a sexual experience, because you don't want the man to absorb this. 

But it's relatively new. Some physicians may not yet be aware of it. We just attended a medical conference where this was recommended. 

Dr. Clifford: And what does it do? 

Joyce Penner: It basically helps your body utilize whatever hormone you have there. And it's found to be very helpful. As doctor said, it's God's gift to postmenopausal women and particularly those who have had cancer and can't use other hormonal replacement therapy. [00:15:20] 

Dr. Clifford: And then the other thing that we always recommend for postmenopausal women who are experiencing dryness is that they find a lubricant that works well for them and use that on a regular basis. 

Joyce Penner: Some women can use hormonal cream. Again, estrace cream or estradiol or estriol, that's inserted into the vagina. But again, that has to be prescribed. But lubricants that are good, we list the new list and we won't go through all that in our book, Restoring the Pleasure, the new version. 

Dr. Clifford: I think you listed in Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women too. 

Joyce Penner: I think we did too. 

Dr. Clifford: For men, I'll just be very quick.

Joyce Penner: This is key. Very important. 

Dr. Clifford: One of the things that happens as men age Is that they may not come to the sexual experience already aroused like was true when they were 20-

Joyce Penner: More like a woman in a sense.

Dr. Clifford: Yeah. They become more like a woman and that is that they get aroused in the experience. That's not a sign that the man is losing his interest or that the woman doesn't turn him on. [00:16:21] It's just a sign that his testosterone is dropping off because as we age we have less and less testosterone.

So one of the major changes is that a man often begins the sexual experience not aroused and then becomes aroused in it, and then he tends to respond more slowly, may not be as firm, may not ejaculate as intensely, may not need to ejaculate with every orgasm. So all of that will be a part of the process of aging. Those things can be dealt with in a lot more detail. But that gives you some ideas. 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. This may be brand-new information to some listeners. For the men listening, at what age does that typically start to set in? 

Dr. Clifford: Let's give what actually happens. A man reaches his peak of testosterone around age 25. And then on average, that is reduced at a rate of 1% per year. So that when a man reaches age 50 he only is producing 75% of the amount of testosterone he did when he was 25. 

Joyce Penner: He might not notice any difference with that. [00:17:34] 

Dr. Clifford: At that point. By the time a man reaches 75, he's only producing half as much. And most men notice the difference by the time they reach 75. 

Joyce Penner: Even between 50 and 75. 

Dr. Clifford: There is a decrease in the intensity of arousal, the frequency of arousal, all of that. And this is why something like Viagra, Cialis, Levitra, those pills are helpful in terms of getting and keeping an erection. We always kiddingly say, so by the time you're 125, you run out of testosterone and then you die. So what's the use of living without testosterone? 

Joyce Penner: And testosterone replacement is possible for both men and women. Again, that would have to be worked out with your physician. 

Dr. Clifford: Or depending on the person's medical condition, all that. 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: Today, another anonymous donor stepped up to pay the sponsorship fee and share a very important organization with you. It's called Sexual Wholeness. 

Wouldn't you get excited and want to know more if you heard of an organization whose mission statement was commissioning a network of Christian therapists and educators to revolutionize the church with God's truth about sexuality? [00:18:46] 

This Christian nonprofit organization, Sexual Wholeness, has that as their mission and they work to accomplish it through classes and video-based resources. 

The Institute for Sexual Wholeness provides graduate courses in sex therapy for licensed therapists. These classes are offered in a three-day weekend intensive format in Atlanta, Georgia. Taking these courses will not only increase your ability to deal with sexual issues, but it can also lead to a certification as a sex therapist through the American Board of Christian Sex Therapists. 

Sexual Wholeness also has the Christian Association of Sexual Educators, with video-based courses designed for church educators to facilitate in their local communities. Currently, there are three video-based courses: Dance of the Sexes on Single Sexuality, Covenant Lovers with sexual enrichment for Married Couples, and Heroes and Warriors for helping men with sexual integrity. 

In a sex-saturated culture, the Church needs trained educators and therapists to cultivate God's truth about sexuality with the freedom and wholeness that it will produce. [00:19:50] 

Many of the guests on The Savvy Sauce have taken these courses, and then they come back to share with us all of their findings. These continue to be some of our most popular episodes, and they get shared around the world. We appreciate Sexual Wholeness, and we hope that you'll visit their website to find out more, sexualwholeness.com. 

Laura Dugger: What are some helpful conversations couples can have to negotiate various parts of their sex life? 

Joyce Penner: Well, we would say, first of all, when they have these conversations, if it's caused stress in the past, which often it has, then we'd recommend they plan to record their conversation. But not that I record Cliff and he doesn't know it. We're not talking about tricking the other person and making them angry. We're talking about deciding together to record it. Because it's amazing how much better we listen to each other, how much more carefully we communicate. We reduce the conflict and the tension by recording. We clean up our act, so to speak. 

Dr. Clifford: And then a second thing we would say is, it is important that you not have these conversations in the middle of a sexual experience or a start of one. [00:21:06] 

Joyce Penner: You don't initiate by getting into... 

Dr. Clifford: By saying, you know, I always hate it when you... That's usually not a... 

Joyce Penner: "I wish we didn't do it this way."

Dr. Clifford: Those aren't particularly helpful ways to get each other turned on. So we always encourage that these conversations happen away from the sexual experience. 

Then a third thing we'd say is if the couple is not used to talking about sexual issues, this is when it would be so important for them to read something together on the subject.

Joyce Penner: Out loud. 

Dr. Clifford: Out loud. Like let's say they have some orgasmic problem, he's a premature ejaculator, she has difficulty with orgasm or whatever, then they would read those chapters in a book and talk about it from there.

Joyce Penner: That would be our book, Restoring the Pleasure, that came out new in March 2016. They could just go to that specific chapter "overcoming problems with release" and read that chapter out loud together. [00:22:04] 

They wouldn't have to read the whole book. They might want to eventually. But if they find that initiation is an issue, they just go and read that chapter and then discuss it. 

We encourage couples to start with self-help and see if they can do that. If their relationship is really troubled, if they've never been able to talk well about intimate issues without getting into conflict, they may need outside help. But start with reading out loud. 

Dr. Clifford: Now, let's quickly go to the subject of what if one of them wants to do something and the other is uncomfortable with it or feels it's wrong? How do you handle that? Well, what's important here is to understand the Bible does not say anything about what is acceptable or unacceptable within marriage. It talks a lot about the sexual boundaries outside of marriage. But in marriage, it just talks... we have the Song of Solomon, which is basically a couple enjoying each other sexually, very erotically. 

So what we have come to believe is that we have to follow other biblical principles that would dictate how we make those decisions. One, it always has to be mutually fulfilling. It can't be at the expense of one and at the benefit of the other. [00:23:25] 

Laura Dugger: And just to clarify, when you say sexual experience should be mutual, you are not saying orgasm has to happen for both spouses every time. Rather, you're encouraging mutual enjoyment, connection, and intimacy, just not at the expense of one person. And even in your books, you write about quickies as a fun option to keep the spark going until you have a time for longer connection. Is that right? 

Joyce Penner: Right. 

Dr. Clifford: Exactly. 

Joyce Penner: Well, and we talk about these principles both on our website. And in our book, Enjoy, in chapter 9 in our book, Enjoy, if the listeners have that book. And we first ask, is it loving? In other words, does it fit the qualities listed in 1 Corinthians 13? Or is it just self-serving? Is it mutual? Clifford just mentioned that is it as good for one as it is for the other? And then, does it build intimacy? Scripture teaches that we are to become one. We are to become one flesh. We are to become one. [00:24:29] 

Dr. Clifford: Let's give a quick example there. We know that couples that want pornography together might get a little turned on or very turned on in response to that pornography. But over time, it moves them apart from each other. So we would see that as something that is destructive to the relationship because it doesn't tend to bring them together, it tends to move them apart. 

Joyce Penner: They're responding to the images they see in the pornography, not to each other, so it does not build intimacy. And then the fourth question we ask is, does it in any way distance you from God or violate any biblical principle? 

For example, self-stimulation in marriage violates... if the spouse is self-stimulating rather than being with the spouse. For example, if the wife is wanting more sex and he's avoiding because it's just easier to take care of himself or he's hooked on pornography, that would be violating the principle that we are to give ourselves to each other and be there for each other. [00:25:38] So if that's a substitute, then that interferes with that biblical teaching. 

Dr. Clifford: And even if there is something that might be okay, a big question that couples often ask about is oral sex, and some are uncomfortable with that and some are more comfort with. The bible doesn't talk about it except it's kind of inferred in the Song of Solomon. 

But even if we think of something as not wrong, fully acceptable, we still never engage in any activity that violates the other person even if it's not a moral issue, but violates the kind of the personal stance that that individual has. 

Joyce Penner: And often there are things that are violating to a person who was sexually abused. Those activities must be avoided. Even if they're totally wonderful from a biblical perspective, we are not to be violated in the sexual experience. It is to be mutual. [00:26:34] 

So if one person is uncomfortable with a certain activity, even though it would be totally acceptable, we go with the most conservative person and find all the things that can be done that are enjoyable for both. And that eventually may even lead to comfort.

Dr. Clifford: I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. So when you say biblically that everything is permitted sexually between a husband and wife, that does not include pornography because that would be adding someone else into the mix beyond the husband and wife. So whether that's a threesome or pornography, that would not fall under the category. Is that correct? 

Dr. Clifford: Exactly. 

Joyce Penner: Exactly. Yeah. 

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Well, let's get practical. We'll talk to both the husband and the wife. Let's start with the wife. What's one thing she can do today to increase her pleasure in sexual intimacy with her husband? 

Dr. Clifford: When she is able to get with and experience her sexual intensity, that is both going to bring her more pleasure and increase the intimacy between the two of them. 

Joyce Penner: But how she does that varies so much from one woman to another. But if she can somehow start by first, we would ask the woman, can she say 'I am a sexual person and that's good and of God'? Can she give herself permission? Does she see it as something for her? [00:28:53] And if not, how can she move in that direction? 

So she affirms herself as a sexual person and then learns to listen to those sexual cues within herself and share those with her husband. But it may have to start by her listening to herself first.

Dr. Clifford: The reason we emphasize this so strongly is there are so many women who are very hesitant about letting themselves be a sexual person. Like there's something wrong with that, like you're a slut. If you really, you shouldn't enjoy it too much. It's okay for the man to enjoy it, but the woman shouldn't enjoy it, or else there's something a little wrong with her. 

Joyce Penner: And that's a cultural impact, not a scriptural or biblical one. 

Dr. Clifford: Now, in terms of the man, if there was one thing we would advise a man, just, you know, in two sentences here, we would say slow down. 

Joyce Penner: Follow her lead. Keep his pace behind hers, both in activity and intensity, and it'll be better for both of them. [00:29:58] 

Dr. Clifford: Whenever we're teaching seminars with married couples and we mention this idea of slowing down, virtually every woman's head in the audience is nodding. This goes out of the fact that women operate on two tracks whereas men operate on one track. I'm not just saying men have a one-track mind here but-

Joyce Penner: When a man is aroused usually he is also emotionally ready-

Dr. Clifford: ...to proceed to intercourse stimulation and ejaculation. Whereas when a woman is physically aroused, and the research has shown this, she may not be at all ready to proceed.

Joyce Penner: Emotionally.

Dr. Clifford: ...emotionally proceed to intercourse because she's operating on two separate tracks. There's the physical arousal, which she may or may not even be aware of, and that is vaginal lubrication, nipple erection, vaginal engorgement, clitoral erection, all of that. And then-

Joyce Penner: Which is so much less obvious than the man's arousal. [00:30:58] We think one of the reasons men are more in tune with their physical arousal, more in tune with it emotionally, is since they've been little boys, they've been aware when their body reacts and responds. Whereas girls don't grow up with that kind of awareness. 

Dr. Clifford: And so, she has to be able to get to the place where her emotions, her feelings join her physical arousal, and that's usually... 

Joyce Penner: That takes time. 

Dr. Clifford: That takes time and is usually longer than is true for the man. That's why we need the man to slow down. 

Laura Dugger: And you've said before that if the man does get too far ahead of his wife, she takes that, maybe internalizes that as pressure. 

Joyce Penner: Yeah. And often then she can't keep up. When she's trying to keep up and she's feeling he's getting ahead, she gets anxious, and that anxiety interferes with the natural progress. So even if she doesn't... it's not a resistance by decision, it's just that it becomes a pressure. Yes. [00:32:03] 

Laura Dugger: As we're starting to conclude for today, we're called savvy for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge or insight. And as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce? 

Joyce Penner: Cliff has been a great affirmer, and I've always enjoyed sex. And we think that started because he pursued me with affirmation always. Also, we got our sex life off to a great start because of a class that I took before we got married in a school of nursing that I was in, which was taught by a Christian female psychologist that really emphasized sex is a positive thing for women in marriage. So we started off with a very good positive set. That is an important formula to incorporate in your life.

Dr. Clifford: Maybe saying that very simply is Get yourself educated about sex. If you really are knowledgeable about it, you will then be able to be much more deliberate about getting the joy that everyone, we believe, can experience. [00:33:11] 

Laura Dugger: Well, it's truly been an honor to get to speak with the two of you and hear your wonderful and encouraging ideas related to sexual intimacy in marriage. 

Dr. Clifford: Well, thank you for having us. 

Joyce Penner: Thank you. 

Dr. Clifford: We enjoy it and are eager to interact with anybody that's listening. 

Laura Dugger: Thank you so much. 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:34:14] 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:35:19] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:36:19] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.