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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Jul 01, 2019
Monday Jul 01, 2019
60. Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships with Pastor, Scott Wildey
**Transcription Below**
1 Thessalonians 5:11 (NIV) “Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.”
Scott Wildey, M.Div., is a husband to Linsey (17 yrs), and father to Hunter (11) and Piper (9). He is also an Associate Pastor at Flood Church in San Diego (16 yrs), overseeing the Groups and Marrieds ministries, and feels most alive encouraging others to be all God has designed them to be. Scott is certified in the The Myers–Briggs Type Indicator, trained in The Clifton StrengthsFinder, and dabbles in the Enneagram (as a 9). He also enjoys reading theology, writing, Premier League football, trivia, 80s nostalgia, board games, Harry Potter movies, classic sneakers, The Revisionist History and Savvy Sauce podcasts, the Bible Project, Coltrane & Davis jazz, lounging in his Walmart pool, coupons, and has never met a sauce he didn’t like (try the Zhoug!). Scott knows he has lots of gray hair and often fibs that it costs a lot of money to have it look that way (since he is told every other day how gray his hair is becoming).
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Scott Wildey is my guest today. He is a pastor in San Diego, and he has years of experience helping individuals and couples learn more about their personalities through the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory. With his storytelling and humor, he's going to unpack personality differences you may relate to in your family, marriage, and workplace.
Ultimately, he will share ways we can celebrate one another's differences for a greater outcome. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Scott. [00:01:21]
Scott Wildey: Thank you for having me. Looking forward to speaking with you today.
Laura Dugger: Can you just start us off by sharing a snapshot of your life?
Scott Wildey: I currently work in San Diego, California. I know that a lot of people are probably pitting me right now, but please do not pity that. I work for a church called Flood Church. We've existed for about 18 years. I've been working here, in full-time ministry, for over 15 years now. Before that, I was a graphic designer.
I'm married to an amazing woman for nearly 17 years. Her name is Linsey, and she is a spiritual director. She meets with people and supports them and helps them to discern God's movement in their life. It's really fun to be married to her.
We have two kids, an 11-year-old son who loves soccer and school and friends. Then we have an almost 10-year-old daughter. My son is Hunter, and my daughter is Piper. She's great as well. I just love being a dad and a husband and a pastor. [00:02:24]
Laura Dugger: Well, you definitely have a darling family. Back when we lived in San Diego, my husband Mark and I served in one of your ministries that was called Two Become One. For anyone listening who isn't local to the San Diego area, it was a premarital counseling resource for couples.
Scott, you were the guru to speak on the Myers-Briggs Personality Profile. I just remember it was so beneficial to the couples to learn more about themselves and about one another. Today, we're just going to focus on that personality profile. Can you first just give us an overview of what the Myers-Briggs Personality Test is, and then share why you think it's beneficial for couples to know their type?
Scott Wildey: Sure. The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator has been around for quite a long time. I first discovered it in 2001. I went to a leadership conference through our church, and one of the presenters had us do that assessment just so we can learn more about ourselves and the people that we're working with. [00:03:25] I was so enamored by it and wanted to learn about it that I became a certified instructor in 2003 and have been really using it ever since.
Essentially, it's based on a personality type theory of Carl Jung. What he did is he observed that normal, healthy people have innate differences, innate differences in how they think and view the world. He published a book on personality type.
About that same time, there was a mother-daughter team in the United States that were having some similar thoughts about personality. They got a hold of Jung's book, and they basically created an assessment of his theory and their own observations. What's neat about that is this was all happening about the time of World War II.
One of their motivations was that people could develop a better fit for what they were doing. They saw a lot of wasted potential during that time. Then they also wanted to have people understand themselves and other people so they could find a creative use of differences. Really motivation of peace in a time of war is a pretty amazing origin story. [00:04:44]
Over the next 30 years, they developed this instrument. In 1975, it was the first time it was made available. It's now in, I think, about 110 countries or so in 30 different languages. It's research and science-based, which is great, and that's important.
The other thing, what I love about it, is they wanted to put a psychological assessment into the hands of everyday people. Because at that time, only affluent people could afford to go to a psychologist and do an assessment like that. That's kind of the history behind it, and millions of people use it every day.
Laura Dugger: That is fascinating. I just learned quite a bit right there in the start. If somebody does want to go find this test and take it so that they can identify their profile, where would you direct them?
Scott Wildey: One thing about this particular instrument is, especially since I was certified, they really believe in the science behind it. Unfortunately, that means that the tried-and-true instruments, one has to pay for. The place that I'd recommend, and I'll give you this link, is themyersbriggs.com. It's an organization that has the rights to the tried-and-true research instrument. [00:06:00]
That's the place that we send couples that go through our Two Become One course that you mentioned. That's probably where I would send people. However, if someone wants to Google to take it, they can, but it wouldn't be as accurate.
Laura Dugger: That's helpful. We will definitely link to that in the show notes so they can go take the paid version if they're interested. I think it would be great for our listeners to get a snapshot about this instrument. Do you mind just going through all of the letters?
Scott Wildey: Definitely. One thing that's important to know is that this is a great model, and it's a great tool. One of my favorite quotes I've learned along the way is by a statistician named George Box. He said that all models are wrong, but some are useful. This is a self-validating instrument. Even if your listeners want to see if they can self-evaluate themselves, that's usually the best way that we can begin to know our personality. [00:06:59]
The other thing I think it's important to know before I introduce some of the letters is just to remind us that every individual is unique. Even though we do have some shared human attitudes and brain functions, we're all unique. Even though someone would have four letters and there are 16 possible types, we're all unique.
None of the letters are value-based. What that means is that each letter is good. It would be incorrect for me to say, for example, Laura, that I'm more extroverted than you. The instrument doesn't measure a value. It actually is a category instrument, or the best way to put it is it's a sorting instrument. It's merely saying that I have a preference for extroversion.
Lastly, I would say that all of us have each of these letters. It's more of what is my dominant preference. Even though I have a dominant preference for extroversion personally, I also need times of introversion, and that's true for all of us. [00:07:59]
The first actually dichotomy is what they're called… is extroversion and introversion. This has to do with where we draw our energy from. People that prefer extroversion they're energized by the outer world, people, places, and things. They tend to live it and then understand it. If you can think of a metaphor of a bank, people that prefer extroversion, they're energy collectors.
So if someone that prefers extroversion, maybe they haven't been around people for a long time, their bank might be empty. So every interaction they have with people or the outside world, it's like an energy deposit into their bank.
People that prefer extroversion also tend to be initiators, and they like to process via talking. So for their brain to process, generally their mouth is moving. It's kind of funny, but I've seen that to be true in myself. Even though they do receive energy by the outside world, again, they need alone time, they need introverted time, but typically they need less time to recoup than someone that prefers extroversion. [00:09:12]
Then lastly, about extroverts, they're about 50% of the population. Being a pastor, I like to think of, well, how might someone that prefers extroversion prefer spiritual practices? I've discovered that I enjoy spiritual practices in community or with other people. Even if it's a time of silence, I enjoy being with other people, and it really helps my spiritual walk. So I've discovered a lot of that is because I prefer extroversion.
Now the other side of that dichotomy is introversion. Just like you'd expect, these are opposites. So a person that prefers introversion is energized by the inner world of ideas, thoughts, and concepts. Typically they have to understand it and then live it. They like to think it through before they speak or maybe present.
Going back to that metaphor of the bank, they tend to be energy spenders. So their bank might be full if they've had a lot of alone time. Then every interaction with the outside world, including people, tends to be a withdrawal from their energy bank. [00:10:15]
A lot of times in social settings they're receivers instead of initiators, like people that prefer extroversion. For their brain to process, a lot of times it means the mouth has to be closed. They generally, again, need more time to recoup, especially after social interactions.
In terms of spiritual practices, a lot of people that prefer introversion I know, they actually are drawn towards solitude and silence as a way of recouping. It could be journaling or spending time alone in nature, that sort of thing. So even though we all might like that, most of my friends that prefer introversion, that's something that they really are drawn to in their preference.
Something that's interesting about introverts and extroverts when we think of how we interact and work together, there's going to be a natural tension there, of course. A lot of times extroverts and introverts they tend to have conflict over when to talk about things or when to have an argument.
For example, when my wife prefers introversion, whenever we have to talk about something important, I'm used to processing verbally so I want to talk about it right then and there, but a lot of times she needs some time to process and formulate her opinions on things. And that could create an additional conflict, which we've learned to kind of laugh at now, but in the beginning, it wasn't quite as fun as you can imagine. [00:11:39]
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to have personal examples to bring it to life. Just to summarize so far, the letters would be either E if you prefer extroversion or I if you prefer introversion.
Scott Wildey: Yes, that is correct.
Laura Dugger: Okay. You want to lead us into the next dichotomy?
Scott Wildey: Yes. Yes. The next dichotomy is sensing and intuition. The letter is S for sensing. And for intuition, the letter is N because the I has been already used for introversion. So people that prefer sensing... Now, these are actually the first brain functions that Carl Jung gave a theory about.
So the brain is either doing two things when it's conscious. It's either taking in information or it's coming to conclusions. And so this dichotomy of the sensing and intuition is the part of the brain that is taking in information. Or another way to say it is what am I paying attention to? And people have different preferences. [00:12:40]
It would be like if I were to ask you to fold your hands or to clasp your hands. And if you look down at your hands, you'll find that one of your thumbs is above the other thumb. Now, if I ask you to spread your hands apart again and then bring them back together, but using the opposite thumb on top, my guess is it feels kind of awkward and strange.
So for me, when I naturally do that, my left thumb is above my right thumb and that feels normal and natural. Whereas when I put my opposite thumb on top, it feels very unnatural. It'd be my right thumb on top. Well, the interesting thing about that is I've probably been clasping my hands a million times over the past 46 years. I probably did it when I was one or two years old by observing somebody else. And I did it the same way every single time without even thinking about it.
That's a great analogy for how our brains naturally prefer one of these functions over the other one. So it doesn't mean that people do it the opposite than I do are wrong. It just means that our brain has a preference. [00:13:41]
So people that prefer sensing, they prefer to take in information via specifics, concrete data. The main question that their brain is answering is what is it? What is it? They tend to be in the moment, realistic and practical. They tend to make decisions by experience and known facts first. And oftentimes they will think about things very linearly.
Another thing that's interesting about this particular dichotomy is that people that prefer sensing make up about 75% of the population, according to the millions of people who've taken the instrument. They have data to support that.
And then according to a spiritual practice, there's a lot of people that prefer sensing. Most likely they're actually going to prefer to use their five senses when they experience God, when they worship God, when they're with other people.
The other side of that dichotomy are people that prefer intuition. They tend to start with the big picture or to start with the vision. [00:14:44] The question that their mind is asking is what does it mean? What does it mean? They tend to look for possibilities first. They're often imagination based and they're okay going from leaps and bounds of ideas, often without segues.
Many of us who prefer intuition, we rely on hunches. And just like the math states, we're about 25 percent of the population. And a lot of times our spiritual practices might be centered around theology and concepts and symbols as that's kind of where our mind naturally goes.
In terms of working with people, whether it's a spouse, a friend, a family member, a co-worker, a lot of times conflict in this dichotomy with sensing and intuitives has to do with the content of the argument.
So a great example of this would be in anybody's workplace. Most likely they have a team meeting and maybe a brainstorming session. Well, intuitives like to start with the big picture first, the grandiose idea, whereas people that prefer sensing, they like to start with the details.
So oftentimes when a big picture is presented, someone on the team that prefers sensing will usually say pretty quickly, well, how are we going to do that? And then a person that prefers intuition, oftentimes that can be frustrating for them because they're trying to brainstorm. [00:15:59]
So if people don't understand how the others are wired and how they naturally think, then that can be an unnecessary source of conflict. When hopefully if people can gain an understanding about themselves and everyone else in the room, that they can actually fulfill the goal of this instrument is to create a constructive use of the differences.
Because we all know that both of those are really important. It's really important to know the details of a project and how is it going to get done. But it's also important to dream and have vision and think outside the box. So we're all important and all is needed.
Laura Dugger: That is really interesting. I've never heard the percentages before. Are any of the other dichotomies favoring one or the other as strongly as the S and the N?
Scott Wildey: Yes. That's a great question, by the way. So introverted and extroverted is about 50-50. The interesting note about those percentages is even in other countries that we might assume might either be more introverted or more extroverted are still around 50-50. [00:17:00] Judging and perceiving is also about 50-50.
But the one that has a little bit of diversity is the thinking and feeling dichotomy. And that's actually the next dichotomy that we're coming to. But that one has a gender difference. And people that prefer thinking... men tend to be 60% preference of thinking and 40% preference of feeling. Whereas women tend to be about 70% to 75% feeling and 25% to 30% thinking. So that's the only one that has this gender difference according to the people that take the instrument.
And I think the question that that leads me to and that should lead all of us to is what happens if you are a gender that's in the minority of that type preference? So another way of asking that is if I'm a man and I am that prefers feeling, what kind of assumptions and judgments might other people make about me? [00:18:01] Or better yet, if you're a woman that prefers thinking in the minority of other women, what kind of assumptions and judgments might other people make about you? And so it's incumbent on all of us then to go beyond those stereotypes and again, to learn this constructive use of differences.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Just taking all of this in. So tell us about the thinking and feeling.
Scott Wildey: This is the next brain function. So the first brain function was taking in or receiving information. And this brain function is actually coming to conclusions based on that information. So in other words, I based my decisions on (and then fill in the blank).
A person that prefers thinking, they tend to base their decisions on logical implications. Now, keep in mind that these words are specific words and meanings to the Myers-Briggs. So if I prefer thinking, it doesn't mean that I don't feel. I'm not a cyborg or something. And then if I prefer feeling, it doesn't mean I don't know how to think. Maybe more constructive words for us today might be objective and subjective.
So a person that prefers thinking, they base their decisions more objectively a lot of times on impersonal analysis or logic. They tend to be task-focused, not a lot of fluff, and how they like to make decisions. And they also show an intention to care by fixing. [00:19:23] And fairness to them is usually everyone is treated the same.
In terms of spiritual practices, a lot of people that prefer thinking, they might prefer studying and studying ideas and theology. And knowing about God is often a starting place or the intellectual pathway for people that prefer thinking.
On the opposite side of the dichotomy, people that prefer feeling, just like it says, they typically base decisions based on personal values or subjectivity and the impact that decisions are going to make on people. They also tend to show care by encouraging. And to them, fairness is the context, and that people would be treated uniquely according to that particular situation that they're in. They're very relational-focused and spirituality for them or spiritual practices for them might include lots of expression, experiences, and people.
The conflict that these preferences tend to have with each other is over... is the conflict we're having about the relationship or the issue. In other words, how much are emotions playing in this decision? And since fairness and intentions are coming from these opposite places, then without understanding, there is a lot of conflict in this particular era with most people. [00:20:45]
Laura Dugger: That definitely makes sense. And if you said there's such a difference between the genders, typically. I can see where that would bring up a lot of marital issues.
Scott Wildey: Yes, indeed. Indeed.
Laura Dugger: Do you mind leading us into the final dichotomy?
Scott Wildey: Yes. The final dichotomy is how our brains like to be organized in the outer world. Or another way to say it is my preferred lifestyle is. And people that prefer judging and people that prefer perceiving, that's the dichotomy on this one.
But again, these words are a little tricky. They mean something in the Myers-Briggs type indicator that might mean something different in the outer world. So if someone prefers judging, it's not meaning moral judgments or that they're a jerk or something. It just has to do with their attitude towards the outer world.
So someone that prefers judging, they actually like closure quicker. There's a joy in closure for them. They typically plan ahead and then they follow that plan in a pretty close regimen. They like lists and checkboxes. Change for them takes more energy, whereas deadlines are very helpful to their organization and their structure. [00:21:54]
People that prefer judging also tend to be very decisive and systematic. And for them, it's about the destination. That's a really big value for them. Then in terms of spiritual practices, people that for judging, they often like a very structured time. So maybe a certain kind of liturgy would be very supportive for them.
People that prefer perceiving are people that prefer the joy of gathering information and the joy of processing. So they tend to like to keep their options open. Change is expected for them, if not thrived upon. And people that prefer perceiving want open flexibility and their tentative at making decisions. And for them, the big value is it's about the journey. And oftentimes, spiritual practices for them might be times of spontaneity where there's an open schedule, where they can interact with God in different ways without being overly controlled.
In terms of working with one another, with our friends, family, workplaces, people that prefer judging and perceiving tend to have conflict over time. Time is a really big issue and a really big difference in how people that prefer judging and people that prefer perceiving perceive time. [00:23:07]
An example of this, if you were to ask a person that prefers judging if they need to get their work finished before they play, almost always they will say, Yes, I have to finish my work before I can play. Well, if you ask that very same question to someone that prefers perceiving, they will often not totally understand the question. They might say, well, my work kind of is play or I take breaks and it helps my work. And oftentimes that can frustrate people that prefer judging, I found, when really it's just a different way of living one's life that isn't wrong or bad, it's just different.
Laura Dugger: That is so interesting to hear that breakdown. I'm so curious, do people's letters change throughout seasons or their life or are they finding that the four letters that you identify with that will be true of your whole lifespan?
Scott Wildey: Yes, it's a both and. That's kind of the way I've looked at it. So the theory states actually that one's type is one's type. [00:24:08] So one's brain doesn't change in terms of their type. Whatever type that you have, that is your lifetime preference. And that makes sense in many ways because we all are each of the letters. But each of us has a dominant preference.
So I think a lot of people get confused when they feel like they have to choose just one of the letters because their life experience is both of the letters in each of the dichotomies. I think when people understand that, well, yes, we all experience both of these letters, but your brain does choose because as a preference, then I think people feel more comfortable owning kind of how their brain is already functioning.
But something else that's interesting about this is there's different sub-theories to this theory. And the first theory, which we don't have probably a lot of time to go into today, but it has to do with type development. And basically what that means is that while one's brain is forming up to about the age of 25 is that each of their letters is kind of going out for a trial.
For people that are under 25, that could be confusing if their personality type has been developing. Or just as important, it could be confusing to their parents who think they understand what their type is, but maybe their children have been experiencing different attitudes or different preferences over that time. [00:25:28]
Then the other kind of sub theory has to do with the second half of life. Those of us who are in our middle ages kind of understand that there's a segment of life where your preferences change a little bit. Well, that theory basically says that whatever our least preferred functions are, there's a time of life when we want to redevelop those or we want to develop those, especially things that have been repressed or have felt most childlike during the first half of our life.
So it doesn't necessarily say that our preference changes. It's just merely saying that our comfortability with our least preferred types letters, we're more apt to try on without as much resistance. Does that make sense?
Laura Dugger: I think it does. And let me share a personal example and see if this fits in the second theory that you're talking about.
Scott Wildey: Sure.
Laura Dugger: Before I was a mom, I identified and preferred P, perceiving, instead of J, judging. [00:26:29] And that was always how I lived my life. But now as a mom, I've noticed the J seems really beneficial. And so I'm trying to grow in that. And would almost identify more with that letter during this season or just in the functions at home with the kids. So would that fit into the second theory?
Scott Wildey: Yeah, I think that would go into the second theory. I'm glad you share that story because it brings up an important point that Carl Jung made. He said the goal of understanding and awareness of yourself is actually that you can toggle back and forth to your least preferred preferences with more awareness and then usability.
So it doesn't mean that you're going to switch your dominant preference, per se. But it does mean that over time, with more understanding and more practice, that you'll be able to toggle back and forth with less resistance. So that could be what's happening with you as well. [00:27:30]
Laura Dugger: Thank you. Hopefully, that's helpful to somebody else who's listening and processing for themselves right now. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: Let's just move on towards couples. Do you often see couples who are marrying someone similar to them or someone who is opposite?
Scott Wildey: I mostly see couples who marry their opposite or at least more opposite than they are. There's definitely a range. I think more people marry a person that's different than them than people that are the same.
Laura Dugger: And do you have any savvy tips to share with both types of couples, the ones that marry someone similar to them and someone opposite? [00:29:36]
Scott Wildey: Yeah. There's a great book I'd recommend for couples. The book is called Just Your Type: Create the Relationship You've Always Wanted Using the Secrets of Personality Type by Paul D. Tieger and Barbara Barron Tieger. It's just a fantastic book. I can't recommend it enough.
One of the points they make in this book is that if you marry someone that has a very similar personality type as you do, then there's a good chance that you will avoid a lot of personality conflict that the rest of us have to go through. So that in many ways is a blessing.
On the other hand, though, if you marry someone that's different than you, you will probably have more conflicts in the beginning, and you'll have to put more energy and work in working out that particular sets of conflicts. But then you're more prepared really to understand and work with other people in the world.
So it is a trade-off, but it is true that if you marry someone similar or a couple of someone similar, that you will probably have less at least personality conflict than someone who marries somebody different. [00:30:41]
Laura Dugger: I like that because it's positive, no matter what type of person you marry.
Scott Wildey: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: I'm sure that people are curious, what are both your type and your wife Linsey's type?
Scott Wildey: Yes, my type is an ENFJ. However, I'm going to give a qualifier. And the reason why I'm going to give a qualifier, this would have to be a whole different podcast. There's actually a step two of the Myers-Briggs type indicator. Most people take the step one, which I would recommend. That's a great place to start out. But the step two has more questions and it also measures one's facets of their particular letters.
The best analogy I've heard of is, let's say that each of us can identify with a particular political party, Democrat, Republican, independent. Well, each of those parties is going to have a platform of values and ideals.
So our personality type is very similar. So let's say that I'm an extrovert. I'm going to have certain things in extrovert or characteristics or facets.
And most of those I'm going to prefer. But almost all of us have what's called an out of preference in those particular facets. And so I have an out of preference. Even though I prefer judging, I have an out of preference for being pressure-prompted.
So being pressure prompted is a characteristic that most people that prefer perceiving share. [00:32:04] But I, because we're all made unique, I am very pressure-prompted. So I call myself an ENF pressure prompted J. And I don't want to confuse people too much, but it's also true. So that's how people experience me.
Then my wife is an ISFJ. We both have the F in common and we also both have the J in common, but it is savvy and it is spicy. And the reason being is because since I'm a pressure-prompted J, our J's will look different.
And really, if you are with someone that has the exact same letters that you are compared to other types, you'll experience so much of the same ways that your brain functions in the world. However, if you're just comparing yourself to each other, you'll see a vast ocean of difference. And that's the beauty of this whole thing.
So even though we're both F's, because I'm a man and she's a woman, there's differences there. And even though we're both J's, because I'm a pressure-prone J, we experience each other differently.
Laura Dugger: So it seems like we could just unpack this for so long, but maybe we could boil it down. Is there one area where you and Linsey have mastered conflict resolution as it relates to your letters? [00:33:18]
Scott Wildey: Yes, there is one area and that has to do with the S and N dichotomy, which is the sensing and intuition dichotomy. So my wife prefers sensing. She's very detailed, data-driven, concrete, and I prefer intuition. So I like to start with the big picture.
Even after working with this instrument for 17 years, when I get a three-paged spreadsheet full of data information, my instant response is panic and it overwhelms me. Thankfully, she understands this and has a lot of grace for me.
So one thing that we've done is we both had to, in a sense, meet in the middle. She likes to have family meetings because it really helps us, not only our schedule, but our goals and different things that need to happen to run our household.
Unfortunately, I tend to resist family meetings, not because I don't want to spend time with my wife or not because I don't think that the things we're talking about are very important, but really it's because I know they're going to involve a lot of details. [00:34:26]
And so one thing that we've learned how to do is she will give me a lot of lead time. And she'll probably have to mention it about three or four times, but she'll start off in saying, "Hey, we haven't had a family meeting in a while. When do you think it would be a good time to do it?" That's a great way to get me warmed up to the idea versus her just bringing a spreadsheet on me, which hasn't worked out too well.
Then usually, and I'm still growing in this area, but usually she'll have to mention it one more time and then I'll give her a date and a time and we'll meet. And she'll only give me little chunks at a time, which is really helpful.
Then she'll assure me at the end of it, Hey, I'm going to take this and you're going to take this and this is how this is going to get done. And that really helps me.
Then usually she asks me questions about what I value, what I'm wanting, where do I think we're going? You know, questions that will tap into “me” need and my need for the bigger picture. So then, in a sense, we both win.
Laura Dugger: That's always helpful to hear stories. So thanks for sharing that. [00:35:27] Let's just give a few examples for the couples who have married somebody that's opposite of them or at least opposite in some of these dichotomies.
Scott Wildey: Yeah, definitely. I think for those of us who have married pretty opposite types of people, one thing that I would mention that undergirds all of this is how important respect is.
The root of respect is for any one of us to reconsider or to be open really to another perspective. And it doesn't mean that we have to change our mind or anything like that, but it does mean that we're going to love people by listening and even consider that, oh, this might be something I'm missing.
I know that that has really served me a lot over the years. I didn't start off my marriage, really exercising that posture. And so thankfully I've learned a lot and that has really helped us.
Then another thing I would encourage people, especially if they're different, but really any couple, is to look each other in the eye and tell one another this statement: I cannot change you. And then if you're really open for extra credit, the next statement that you can say to each other and look them in the eye is: I will not change you or I should not change you. [00:36:41]
That's just important to note. Jung said in this theory that these are natural, innate, inborn differences. They're not wrong. So it's not wrong that someone thinks and perceives and comes to conclusions differently than we do. In a sense, it would hurt our dignity if we do try to change people.
That's kind of how I would start off. But in terms of some examples, I've noticed that couples, in terms of the introvert and extroversion dichotomy, if they are different, that a lot of times they have conflict about their social or their family calendar.
One example is, since my wife and I are both really active in our church community here in San Diego, we like to have small groups in our home. I, at one time asked my wife, well, how often during the week do you want to have people over, whether it's another couple, whether it's someone we're mentoring, or whether it's we're having a small group. And I was expecting her to say, Oh, maybe two times, maybe three times. And she basically said, once a week. [00:37:42] Then if one week a month, we could just have totally off.
I was blown away by that. Now, I shouldn't have been surprised by that, because my response to her is, I'm actually okay four times a week having people over. And she was equally shocked. So we've had to come together and respect each other's desires, wishes, and decide on what will work for both of us and for our family. But I've noticed that a lot of couples have conflict in terms of their scheduling and their calendar.
Laura Dugger: That was a great example. Do you have any other tips for the dichotomy of S and N?
Scott Wildey: Yeah. For the S and the N, a lot of times, this is really where couples get into problems with communication. So like I mentioned before, people that prefer sensing, the details are really important to them. And their mind naturally thinks that way. So not having details, in other words, feels unsupportive, and a lot of times, can induce a kind of fear, just not knowing what's coming next. [00:38:44]
Whereas people that prefer intuition, like I shared a story about me, details too soon or too quick can feel overwhelming. And so we've definitely had issues trying to talk to each other. Even as something as simple as about how our day went.
I remember one time a few years ago, coming home, and we hadn't talked the entire day. And I'm trying to make a connection, and I simply asked my wife, who prefers sensing, how was your day? And she looked at me almost with a puzzled look in her eye, if not frustration. And she said, "Well, what do you mean, how was my day?" And I said, "How was your day?" Again, I repeated the same phrase.
And she looked at me again, and she said, "Well, what part of my day are you talking about?" Because she tends to think very linearly. And I was thinking big picture. And I said, "Well, I'm talking about the how was your day part of how was your day?" And it turned into a little spat when it didn't need to.
Now I can kind of see the perspective. When I ask her, how was your day? She's thinking of her day in about 20 different increments. And there's 20 different answers to that question. So that question to her doesn't make any sense. [00:39:54]
Where to me is a I just want a big picture, just give me a general umbrella of how the day was, and then we can start to double-click on what that means. And so that's a funny story now that we can laugh at. But at the time, it almost turned into a serious fight.
Laura Dugger: I can see where the communication would get jumbled there.
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And go ahead, take it away with the thinking and feeling. [00:40:56]
Scott Wildey: Yeah. So the thinking and feeling dichotomy. This one also has a lot to do with communication that couples have. And usually, this is the one where people feel the most misunderstood. Because if I come into a conversation or decision-making process, my brain naturally thinks of fairness as everyone is treated the same. And the person next to me is coming into this conversation feeling that, hey, what's fair is what is unique to this particular context. Then right from the start, it's going to create fireworks.
So I have found that it's really incumbent on this particular dichotomy to approach any kind of conversation or decision-making with a listening-based posture. And I know that anyone who has been to counseling sessions most likely has gone through some kind of listening assessment or some kind of practice where they will actually work on listening and not necessarily sharing their point of view. And so that'd be my recommendation for people that might be opposite on the FT dichotomy. [00:41:58]
Start off with this idea of seeking to understand, and hopefully, if you're in a loving relationship, the other person will have that same posture, and they will try to understand your point of view. Another way of saying this is to view this dichotomy as you're kind of coming back to home base as focusing on the relationship and not being right.
And that's really hard for a lot of us to do but that's the only way that I've seen couples can work through this or really people can work through this is to be curious, to validate the other person's perspective. And validating does not mean that you have to agree with the other person. It simply means, hey, as I've stepped in your shoes, I can see where you're coming from and it's understandable.
When people feel understood, like you can repeat or understand their position as well as they do, then being right actually takes on less of a value for them.
Laura Dugger: I think that's great. It's such a practical application. And if somebody just wants to Google speaker-listener technique, they may come up with some more step-by-steps for the process of that. [00:43:05]
Scott Wildey: That's a great tool. It's one of my favorite tools.
Laura Dugger: And there's one more to cover for opposites. Will you tell us about the judging and perceiving?
Scott Wildey: Yeah. So this one has everything to do with time. I'm sure there's other things that people have conflict over this one, but 99.9% of this one, whether it's a couple, whether it's a family member, parents, kids, especially in the workplace, it has everything to do with time.
So I think the thing here is not to assume and not to judge. And again, to come towards the middle, whatever your view of timing. That's really hard to do.
So what I tend to ask people is when they think about the goals and the tasks and the timelines and deadlines they have is, one, did you work together on coming up with that particular deadline or timeline? If the answer is no, then I would say, well, maybe it would be worth coming up with whatever goal and deadline you have together and then you can work through how to accomplish that goal.
Because most people that perceiving, if they agreed upon the deadline, they were going to work at coming up with whatever their contribution is vastly differently than a person that prefers judging. [00:44:15] However, they're going to finish on time and they're going to get their job done. Whereas most people that prefer judging, because it's so different to how they prefer their world, it's very hard for them to see that.
I will say of all the dichotomies, this one is a little lopsided. And this book, Gesture Type, that I mentioned earlier, it has a few studies that are listed. And one of them is how do people that prefer judging and how do people that prefer perceiving, how do they relate to one another?
And it turns out that 46% of perceivers feel controlled by their judging counterparts. And that's by far the biggest percentage. So control is a big issue here.
And so if you prefer judging, how can you actually collaborate and maybe have a little more acceptance with people that prefer perceiving? And then if you prefer perceiving, how can you work more within the confines of our counterparts that prefer judging?
Then I would just say in terms of whether you get your work done first and then can play or you can play anytime, just enjoy that in the other person. That's a great example of a constructive use of differences. [00:45:24]
So I think my wife, Linsey, since I'm a pressure prompted J, she loves my spontaneity. She loves that five minutes before we do something, I'll mention to her, "Hey, I think it'd be fun for us to do such and such activity with our kids." She really appreciates that now.
Then I've come to appreciate how much I need and value and desire her structure for our family. So it has been a constructive use of differences. And so I know it's possible.
Laura Dugger: Do you have any final encouragement that you want to leave with couples in hopes of them pursuing a more satisfying marital relationship today?
Scott Wildey: Yes, definitely. Another thing that I learned a few years ago is what many psychologists or sociologists call the fundamental attribution error. Basically, the layman's understanding of that, the way that I understand it, is that I judge people for behaviors that when I do myself, I give myself grace for.
For example, the easiest example I could think of is if someone's late to work, not me, I will usually judge them in my mind. I'll label them as irresponsible, or they don't have consideration for the other people they work with. [00:46:38] But sometimes I'm late. And when I'm late, it's because of traffic or some other reasons.
So that's the best example that I can think of, of the normal ways in which we assume and judge other people that through a little work, we can actually find that it's normal for all of us to make mistakes, and these natural inborn tendencies that we have, they're not good or bad. They're just who we are.
Laura Dugger: I think when we do assume the best then of the other person, some amazing things happen.
Scott Wildey: Yes. And it is incumbent on us to think the best of other people. It takes work. Unfortunately, at least for me, I'll speak myself, it doesn't happen naturally. But grace is from God. That's the great thing about this is we're actually learning to love as God loves.
A part of that same idea is that instinctively, a lot of us, when someone does something that's different, and we might judge them internally, especially when we're talking about couples, the first question that we will often ask is, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Now, some of us are just asking that on the inside. [00:47:46] But I've been in enough arguments, even with my spouse, where I've said that externally as well. What's wrong with you? Why do you think this way? Why do you do that?
The best thing I could say is, if you reverse that question, and not so much what's wrong with you, or even what's wrong with me, but why do I feel this way, why is this bothering me so much, why do I have big feelings about this, and why isn't it okay, that my partner can't function in this way? Like, what is the biggest problem that's happening right now? And try to focus more on the way that I'm feeling and interacting, and maybe there's something behind why I'm so triggered.
Laura Dugger: If listeners want to connect with you after hearing this conversation, Scott, where could they find you?
Scott Wildey: Our website at our church is diveintoflood.com. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of social media. That's something I kind of took a fast from a few years ago, but the fast turned out to be a lifestyle choice. So I'm not really on social media. I'm hoping at some point to start a blog but it is yet to be started. [00:48:50]
Laura Dugger: Well, they can definitely head there. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. I just want to close our time with the one question that I like to ask every guest. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so Scott, we would love to know, what is your savvy sauce?
Scott Wildey: My savvy sauce is literally a sauce. That is not a joke. That's a pun intended. So Trader Joe's sells a sauce called Zhoug Sauce. It may be pronounced differently. I'm sorry if I offended the creators of it. It's spelled Z-H-O-U-G. And I love sauces. That's why I love Chick-fil-A.
But most sauces add a high-calorie intake, right? So I'm middle-aged. I'm trying watch my calories. Well, the Zhoug Sauce, it tastes unbelievable. You can put it on anything. And it's cilantro-based with some spices, even though it doesn't taste that much like cilantro to me. So that's my savvy sauce. [00:49:51]
Then my only addition would be, if you haven't signed up for free food and goodies on your birthday, you're missing out. I ate so many free meals around my birthday this year, and it was fantastic. It just feels like everyone is celebrating with you by giving you free food.
Laura Dugger: That is amazing. I think that's the most creative-savvy sauce we've ever had on the podcast.
Scott Wildey: Literal sauce. It's literal sauce.
Laura Dugger: Well done. But really, Scott, you were just such a great storyteller and communicator, and you really brought this personality profile to life. So thank you for being generous with your time and sharing your expertise with all of us today.
Scott Wildey: Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:50:54]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:51:56]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. [00:52:56]
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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