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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Wednesday Sep 19, 2018
Wednesday Sep 19, 2018
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Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
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Laura Dugger: Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you.
Check them out at midwestshelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Today we are fortunate to hear from Dr. Michael Sytsma. He is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. He has been married to his wife Karen since 1985 and they have two adult sons. [00:01:27]
He does various workshops and he was one of my professors in graduate school. I have greatly benefited from his teachings and I believe you will too.
During this episode, Dr. Mike answers 10 common questions related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Here's our chat.
Thanks so much for joining us today, Dr. Mike.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Sure. It's an honor to be here
Laura Dugger: This episode, we're going to talk about 10 common sexual intimacy questions. So here we go. What are some common misconceptions about sex?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh wow, I think there are a lot of them. One is that it's about parts and technique. Parts have to be the right size in order for sex to be good. That parts have to be young and youthful in order for sex to be good. That my technique has to be perfect. That I have to learn how to do it just right.
The reality of it is those play a small piece of having a healthy sexual relationship, but our heart matters far more and the soul of sex matters far more than the parts and technique. [00:02:35] One writer has said that he doesn't think couples can have truly a great sexual relationship until they're in their 50s. Because he says it takes us that long before we finally accept who we are.
I can come before my spouse and say, "Yeah, as broken and as unattractive as I am now at 50, I still give all of me to you. And you receive that." And now we're able to step into a truly intimate relationship. It's not just about, is our body fit and are we able to do with it what we think should happen?
Laura Dugger: That's really good. What do you tell couples who are concerned when they have differing levels of desire?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: A couple of things. One is, when we really get down to it, most couples don't have as different of a desire as what they think. Now, desire is different for each spouse. [00:03:34] In cross-cultural studies, 80% of the time the husband's a high drive, 20% of the time the wife is, which means one in five couples, the wife is the higher drive individual in that relationship. So, that's not as abnormal as what often those couples think it is.
But what's fascinating is in none of the surveys, none of the research that we've done do we find couples that have the same desire. So, to say they have a different level of desire just means they're normal.
But when we start to really talk about what desire is, couples often get much closer than what they think they are. Sometimes it's in how you ask the question. So if I ask a question, how often are you hungry for sex? I'll get a real, usually broad divergence.
The husband might say, Well, I get hungry for sex two or three times a week, or maybe even more. And the wife might say, hungry for sex? Wow, not sure I can remember the last time I was hungry for it. [00:04:37] Most common, I'll hear one to two times a month.
I asked one wife, so tell me about that, you know, when you get hungry for sex, what's that like? And she says, well, all of a sudden I'm thinking about it, and it'd be really nice. Well, what do you do with that? She says, I'm always taxi for the kids, or I am switching the laundry, or I'm fixing dinner, and it's just inconvenient. So she says, "I ignore it, and 20 minutes later it goes away." Her husband looked over at her and said, "Next time call me, I'll be home in 10." And I thought that was great.
But she's just acknowledging that physical drive doesn't happen very often. So we'll see real divergence there. But when I ask, what would you be proud of? What would you like? What do you think is healthy for your marriage?
Now, wives will typically say one to two times a week, and husbands will say typically two to three times a week. And I point out there really isn't much difference between two and two. That one to two times for her and two to three times for him, they're really in that same ballpark. [00:05:39]
Usually, the higher drive spouse will look at the lower one and say, "Seriously, you don't want it that often." And I'll point out that's kind of the wrong question to ask. What if they're telling the truth? What if the low-desire spouse is saying, One to two times is what I think would be good? And you're thinking, but we don't have it quite that often.
The real question is, okay, if that's what you want, what's getting in the way? Now the couple is on the same side of the page talking about what's getting in the way of what we both want. We both would like about twice a week. We think that'd be really good. That'd be fun. That'd be a mark of a healthy relationship. That's what I desire. But something's getting in the way.
And usually it's simple things that are not easily solved, but simple things like, I'm too tired. I have way too much going on in my day. And by the time we get to where we can have sex, I have no energy left for it. Okay, good. That's what's in the way. Now we can step back and problem-solve it. [00:06:39]
Or, "You know what, you really treated me poorly last week, and then you want to have sex, and my heart has to be softer to you. I have to feel adored. I have to feel cared for." Okay, now you know what to solve.
What I find is couples generally aren't as far apart as what they think they are. This was the subject of my doctoral dissertation. I found that what we call the attribution, what they think is more caustic than what is. So it's helping couples to really sit down, talk about it, and figure out what's getting in the way of us getting what we really would like to have, because the desire is probably not as far apart as they think it is.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's fascinating. How can a couple utilize and celebrate their gender differences to positively influence their sexual intimacy?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Well, I think some of it comes in just acknowledging what those are and how each of them would identify, characterize, and talk about the gender piece for them. Because in some of the couples that I work with, he really has a lot more feminine qualities. [00:07:41] His heart is really into the sex.
If she is not enjoying it and nurturing and caring for him, it's kind of weak. And she's uber competent and she's just busting down the walls of the home and of maybe work and she has more of that, what we would call masculine power or masculine strength.
And just helping them to acknowledge, okay, this is how you guys are in your gender and it's what you bring in. How do we accept influence from both? Or if it's more the stereotype where the guy is walking in and swaggering and he just wants to just take his woman and have her just be caught up in it. Okay, how do we accept that, kind of, how the power of your masculinity is expressed? And help her to learn that she has enormous power in her femininity.
The beauty of who she is and her physical nature and the softness of what she is, she has real power there. [00:08:48] And how can she embrace it and use it to guide him in? I look at so many wives and say, you have no idea how much power you have. You can embed yourself in your husband's brain in a heartbeat. Just by reaching over and touching him just right, just by flashing him a little skin, just by being a little bit flirty, he will replay that scene multiple times a day, multiple times a week.
I actually had a couple I was doing therapy with earlier this week, and I said, you know, if you just reach over and you just goose him occasionally and be playful with it, he would think about that several times a day. He said, "I think about that for a year." And tell her you have so much power in your femininity. Embrace it.
So getting them to talk about it and realize both are rich, both are good, both have their own kinds of power and accept influence from each other and just play with it, work with it. [00:09:46]
Laura Dugger: Love hearing the stories too, that really illustrates that. Is it possible for some people to never reach an orgasm?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Research tells us that a very small minority of men never reach orgasm. So that's pretty rare. Most guys enter every sexual encounter, most being at least 99% of guys enter every sexual encounter expecting an orgasm in that encounter.
The reality of it is, for women, it doesn't work that way. Only about 25% of women tell us that orgasms are reliable, that they're going to likely have one most of the time. About a third of women tell us that they have one usually. About a third of women tell us that they have one sometimes. And about 9% of women tell us that they never have.
We've got a fair number of women that will tell us that they never have one. Two-thirds of women say it only happens on occasion, but about 10% don't.
Is it important that they have one? [00:10:46] That's kind of up to them and up to their spouse. We do see that women who have orgasms 50% of the time or more report a much higher level of satisfaction in the marriage and in their sex life. So, we know it adds to it, it adds richness to it. And for that purpose, it may be worth pursuing.
Is it something that every woman is capable of? We're not real sure. We think so. But for some, there may be some neurological issues that don't transmit the pleasure in a way that allows them to have an orgasm. So, there may be some women that can't. Same with the men who can't.
But generally, with some good therapy, with somebody who's trained in what they're doing and a willingness to work at it, individuals can learn to have one.
But to go back to your question, are there some that never do? Yes, there are some. It's a minority, but there are some that never do.
Laura Dugger: That's great. For somebody listening that might relate to that, if they've never tried therapy before, that might be a great step. [00:11:50]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. But we would encourage them to really be a good customer. Make sure that the person you're going to is truly trained in it. You want to ask them, have you been trained in it? How many men or women have you ever worked with who weren't able to have orgasms and what was the outcome of that therapy?
Because if they've never worked with it, but they've been trained in it, you probably want to find somebody else, unless they're the only ones in town. And then you might want to give it a try. But just be a wise, savvy consumer. There's a lot of people that say they've been trained and they know what they're doing that tends to wind up doing some damage. So just be careful.
Laura Dugger: That's great advice. Love that. Okay, another question. Who all struggles with pornography and why is it so dangerous?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Some of that is really tough to know because the research on it is controversial, in part because when you start to ask people, we're not sure if they're really telling us the truth because many people feel like it's not an okay type of a behavior. [00:12:55]
But what we see from the research that's out there is it seems like most men at some point in time will be exposed to it, will find it attractive, and will be drawn to it. We're seeing an increasing number of females that are getting tied up in it.
The more conservative estimates are running 25-30% of porn consumers are female. A lot of the studies are saying that it's much closer to the 50%. We see that especially for younger generations. So, old guys like me, our wives may not be as much drawn to it. For the millennials, we're seeing almost an even split in whether the males or females are looking at it.
For many people, it's almost a rapid-onset addiction because it's such a powerful type of a stimulation. [00:13:53] It can set itself up very quickly as a primary kind of a drive and hooks people pretty quick. For those, the cost can be pretty high because it distracts them from work, it distracts them from a relationship.
The research is controversial right now on what it's doing in rewiring the brain. But a lot of the research seems to suggest that it is having an impact into the brain and how the brain is wired and what's going on neurochemically for the brain.
Some of the biggest impacts we see is that setting up an unrealistic expectation of what relational sex looks like. Pornography is an edited work. So they're going in and they're cutting and they're pasting and they're picking people who can do things that maybe aren't always normal or have parts that aren't always normal and they're presenting it as this is how normal sex looks, these are normal sex practices and this is how bodies normally respond.
Many times we know, as sexologists, well, That's really not true. That's not what normal looks like. [00:14:56] That's kind of fantasy sex. And it was edited to look that way or the direction of it is all set up. But then they bring that expectation into the relationship and they get disappointed.
Many of the both males and females that I work with who struggle with kind of compulsive pornography use talk about how that's easy sex. I don't have to negotiate somebody else. I can look at it. It's really powerful stimulation. It's enjoyable. I can have an orgasm and then move on.
But what they do then is they train themselves to that intensity of stimulation. We see guys having difficulty with erectile dysfunction, guys having difficulty experiencing orgasm, women with the same thing. And what we find is not uncommon that over time they begin to lose interest in partnered sex because this is really fantasy-based as powerful. [00:15:57]
Now, that's going to vary from person to person. I have clients that I work with that are like, "Yeah, I watched it for a little while and I don't understand the interest. It's just fake." And they don't get caught up in it. So everybody who looks at it doesn't get caught up in it. But I encourage couples to be really careful with it because it is a powerful stimulation and can create some real hunger, yearning, and longing for it that gets disruptive.
Because of the power that it has, some sex therapists would recommend it as part of treatment to do it. What I've seen is that it has enough of a caustic effect, enough of a toxic effect, that it's not something that I'd ever recommend. I don't see it helpful ever to bring somebody else into the sexual relationship, ever bring a third party in. Whether that be in fantasy, whether that be in picture, whether that be in video, or whether that be a real person. [00:16:59]
God says to honor the marriage bed and keep it sacred, not to let our sexuality be flawed into the streets, and not to let our well be polluted. So anytime we bring something in or we share it with others, it tends to do damage. And in my experience, pornography often fits into, or always fits into that, that we're bringing somebody else into the marriage bed, and it always does damage.
Laura Dugger: That's such good caution. Thank you. How can we live with sexual integrity and teach our children to do the same?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Those are two really critical but very broad questions. How do I live with sexual integrity? For me, that starts by having a vision of what sexual integrity looks like, and sitting down and really wrestling with what does my personal sexual integrity look like, and then what does sexual integrity look like as a couple, and then begin to be on that path. [00:18:00]
Because we're human, we're not ever going to be perfect with it. But as I get on the path and allow for grace and forgiveness from the past, and grace for my humanity and mess-ups, but continue to strive forward, I can let go of the shame that I might have for the past.
I tell people we need to get to the place that we can say, wow, yeah, that's pretty icky. That's a part of my past. I'm not proud of it but I'm no longer ashamed of it. It no longer controls me. And I can share it with you and not be proud of it, but not be ashamed.
Because when we step before our kids, and we're trying to teach them, if we're bound up in shame, our kids feel that. And our kids take on the shame, and they don't know what the shame is about, so they tie it to our sexuality, and sex becomes a shaming thing.
Where if I can step in and go, "Yeah, I did some really stupid stuff. Now, I'm not ashamed of it any longer. I've forgiven myself. But man, I hope you don't do those stupid things. You might. [00:19:00] And if you do, you know what? There's grace and forgiveness for it. And you'll be fine. But please don't hurt yourself like I did." Now I'm inviting them to a different kind of sexual integrity.
You know, integrity is not being perfect. Integrity is being real. Integrity is being transparent. Integrity is just being authentic with who I am. If I can figure out how to do that, it's much easier to teach my kids how to be people of sexual integrity.
Yeah, is that who you want to be? Really? Okay. So let me know when you get hurt. Because it's going to happen. But I can't stop you from it anyways. So I'm guiding them into real, open, honest, transparent kind of relationships. To me, that's what sexual integrity looks like, where we're presenting vision and I'm being real in how well I'm doing and moving toward it.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. What are some subtle messages or cultural topics that people should be aware of that may be a distortion of God's view on sexuality? [00:20:00]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think the biggest one is sex is just about physical pleasure. That sex is not just about physical pleasure, but it's also inconsequential, that I can do whatever I want to whenever I want to, that I can find somebody who does whatever I want them to whenever, and it won't have a cost.
And the reality of it is, our sexuality is so central, so core to our heart, that acting on that does have an impact to us. Making it just about the physical pleasure tears the heart of it right out. And you can't have something that critical torn out of who we are without leaving an enormous wound.
I think a related piece that comes into it is that culture, and even within the church culture, teaches that sex is a need. That so angers me when I hear people talking about sex as a need. Usually, it's in terms of how frequently a man needs sex. [00:21:00]
I've read many books that say guys need sex every 36 to 72 hours, and I just get really angry at it. Not that men are driven to it, not that men desire it that frequently, not that they're hungry for it. Yes, okay, I don't question that. For many men, that is about the frequency that they get hungry for. But to say that we need it moves it into a whole different realm, a different category.
God created us as men to be holy warriors. And He told us that if we stand arm-in-arm as a squad or as a battalion, the gates of hell itself don't stand a chance. There's nothing that can stand against us. Oh, except your sexuality. That's got control over you. I'm sorry. You just need that. No, you're going to have to act somehow or another. And we totally diminish our masculinity. We make it subject to a drive, to a desire in saying that we need it. [00:22:01]
Then the flip side of that is, if men need sex, what does that make our wives? They become simply the object to fulfill our need. I want my wife to be way more than an object who fulfills my need. I want my wife to desire me. I want my wife to want to connect with me. I want us to move into our sexual intimacy because we desire to, not because we need to.
And the desire might be: I want to please you. The desire might be: you're less grumpy if we do. But I want it to be because we desire to, not because it's a need. And I think it really robs the beauty, the pleasure, the celebratory aspect of it, it robs the richness, it robs the heart out when we talk about it as being a need.
So, I think that those two powerful myths I work with a lot in my office, you know, that it's just about the physical and that it's a need. [00:23:01] When we bring the spirit of it in, the heart of it in, both of those tend to fall apart for me. And so, if it's about those two myths, we've robbed it of something that's really critical and precious.
Laura Dugger: What are some benefits for married couples who do connect frequently in this area?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: There's a number of studies that look at it, and I wouldn't be able to identify all of them, but our immune system is improved. Many will point to that. We see overall better health. One well-done research study showed that a decrease in depression overall.
To me, the biggest advantage is just watching what happens in the couple. When a couple has sex with each other and they connect with each other through that act, the bonding, the chemical bonding that goes on, really ties them together.
We have what John Gottman, a marriage researcher, calls positive sentiment override. [00:24:01] That I get to where you make me feel really good, so I have a lot more grace for you. You know, you did a really stupid thing, but you made me feel really good last night. So we'll kind of ignore the stupid thing.
And we see the couple just do better together. They play better together. They have more grace for each other. And I think it's because of what's going on biochemically in their body, but it's also because they've got time that they just play together. And sex becomes part of the richness of what ties them in together.
Like I said, there's plenty of research on the physical benefits to our systems, to our bodies, but I love what it does in the relationship for a couple. I think that's just worth all of it.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's awesome to hear such a positive view. What is a healthy way to decide how often to be intimate with your spouse?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: One that starts with the end in mind. And if the end in mind is a certain number, you're going to do damage. [00:25:03] If the end in mind is a certain frequency, a certain way of being, I think you do damage.
If the end in mind is, I want to intimately connect with you on a regular basis, okay, now that can work. And now we step back and we get curious with each other. So, how can we go about it? What gets in the way of us intimately connecting? How can we get that out of the way?
So, we've got three preschoolers. Yeah, we can't just get them out of the way. How do we problem-solve connecting with each other, making time sacred that we're husband and wife, that we're not mom and dad?
When a couple gets real about their situation in life, when they are focused on the vision I think they're able to come up with a plan that works pretty well. I do think it works better when couples schedule. There's very little else that we do successfully in life that we're not intentional about, including scheduling. [00:26:02]
Couples will often come in and say, "We just haven't had sex in like three months." "So when did you plan for it?" "Well, we didn't, we're just waiting for it to happen." Clearly, that's not working. So, let's be intentional about it. Let's set aside time that you're going to be husband and wife. Set aside time that you're going to be lovers. Get intentional about it and lean into it.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sponsor: Today's episode is made possible by our Central Illinois sponsor, Leman Property Management. They offer over 1,600 apartment homes throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. Whether you're looking for the newest property in the hottest area of town or an economical location where you can get the most value for your dollar, they have you covered.
From efficiency apartments to 4-bedroom units and single-family homes, Leman Property Management has been providing a place for people to call home for nearly 40 years. [00:27:01] Whenever you start a search for a rental, start that search with Leman Property Management. With a professional and friendly staff to serve you from the first time you walk in their doors, you won't be disappointed.
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Laura Dugger: We only have one more question left. We are called The Savvy Sauce for a reason because savvy means practical knowledge or insight. So, as our final question today, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, we see that communication between a husband and wife is so critical to any part of the relationship. And we're talking about the sexual relationship, so to get to a couple talking about it.
For me, the easiest, most powerful way to do that is just pick a book, really good book on this subject written by experts, and read it out loud to each other and use that as the spark for the conversation. [00:28:07] So read a book out loud together and use it to talk with each other, use it to communicate.
Laura Dugger: I love that. And you've even gone one step further and make it very easy for us to find a list of books because you have that on your website.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yeah, because there's a lot of books out there that are filled with quite a bit of mythology that are not founded in what we know about what works in healthy sexuality. It's not a comprehensive list on our website because it's not there doesn't mean it's not a good book. But we've picked several books that I have found really work well in helping couples to talk about their sex life and to enrich it and to grow it if they spend time reading it and talking about it with each other.
Laura Dugger: That's awesome. That's something we can all do today. We're going to list your website in the show notes.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: And if you could just say it one time for us here.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Yes. Intimatemarriage.org. The exercises are under the section called Try This at Home. It's pretty easy to find them. [00:29:06]
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, your time has been so valuable to us. You have so much insight and knowledge, and I love the biblical principles that you founded all of this on. So thank you for your work, and thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thanks, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Dr. Mike and I have a mutual friend, Dr. Douglas Rosenau, and today we want you to participate in a giveaway so that you get a chance to win Dr. Douglas Rosenau's book, A Celebration of Sex. Just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and look at our "Giveaway" tab for your chance to enter.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:30:06] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? [00:31:06] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:32:09] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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