58 Perspective in Parenting in the Midst of Sorrow, Betrayal, and Grief with Former Children’s Pastor, Teacher, and Writer, Penny Harrison

58. Perspective in Parenting in the Midst of Sorrow, Betrayal, and Grief with Former Children’s Pastor, Teacher, and Writer, Penny Harrison

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Romans 8:28 (NIV) “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” 

 

Penny Harrison likes to say she is a teacher by nature and training but a people-pleaser since birth. She is currently teaching Kindergarten (again!) in a private Christian school, while also running a newly formed ministry consulting business. Penny is the mom of two grown boys/men, ages 24 and 21. She had the privilege of teaching in public and private schools a total of 12 years and full-time ministry for 18 years. Besides teaching, Penny loves to travel, watch sports of just about every kind (she says "when you can't do, you watch"), read, and write everything from lists to Bible studies.  

 

Penny’s Ministry and Consulting

Penny’s Blog "Straight Talk/Wavy Life" 

Connect with Penny on Instagram @pennyph

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: FabFitFun #fabfitfunpartner (Enter Code: SAVVY at checkout to receive $10 off your first box)

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears. 

I want to say thank you to our sponsor, FabFitFun. If you want to learn more about their seasonal subscription boxes, which include over $200 worth of full-size products but cost you only $49.99, visit them at fabfitfun.com. And if you use the coupon code SAVVY at checkout, you'll receive $10 off your first box. 

I was introduced to Penny Harrison through a different guest on this podcast, Leslie Neslage. You may remember her from Episode 13. She has described Penny as being exceptional. 

Penny has been a children's pastor, author, teacher, and mentor to so many folks in the Atlanta community. She has developed curriculums for children and adults, and I'm excited to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. [00:01:20] 
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Penny. 

Penny Harrison: Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Laura Dugger: For anyone who doesn't yet know you, can you just give us a bit of context and share your story? 

Penny Harrison: Oh, sure. I always say that I am a teacher by nature, training, and calling. I've had the privilege of teaching in public and private schools for a total of 12 years. A little over a year ago, about almost 18 months ago now, I retired. Retired would be in quotation marks because I'm definitely not old enough to retire yet. But I retired from full-time ministry after 18 years as being a children's pastor. 

I'm once again back teaching in a classroom setting at this time. I teach kindergarten in a private Christian school here near my house. Also at the same time, I'm running a newly formed ministry consulting business that the Lord laid on my heart to start. [00:02:22] So I've got kind of a lot of things going. 

I'm an empty nester, which is probably good at this point in my life because I rarely cook anymore. Popcorn has become a staple for dinner these days. I'm a mom of two grown boys, actually men now, 24 and 21. 

My oldest graduated from college two years ago, and he lives a bi-coastal, what I would call a starving artist lifestyle. He lives part of the time in New York City and part-time in San Francisco. He's a writer as a trade, but I always tell people he's a waiter to pay the rent. Then my youngest son is a senior in college this year. 

And like I said, teaching is just a part of who I am. I truly believe that I was created to teach, and my absolute favorite thing to teach is God's Word. Besides teaching, I really love to travel. I watch sports of just about every kind. It's kind of that when you can't do, you watch. [00:03:25] I grew up watching sports, so I love all sports, which has been great having two boys. 

I read and I write everything from lists to Bible studies. I love to write. That's just, I guess, a little picture of who I am. 

Laura Dugger: I love that picture. And I'm sure it must take a lot of energy to teach kindergartners. We have a lot of moms and dads that listen to The Savvy Sauce. So from your years of working with so many children, what insight can you provide for us? 

Penny Harrison: Oh goodness, I could go in a lot of different directions here. Here's what I would say first to parents of kids of any age is you will survive. I promise. You will make it. You will survive. Every stage has its blessings and joys, and every stage has its hardships. There's things that are hard about every stage. [00:04:25] 

I think as parents, we all need to hear sometimes from somebody who's been there that we're going to survive it. And so that's my first thing. 

The Lord has been so good to remind me through the years of raising my boys, and I always want to say this to parents, is that God chose you. He chose you to be the parents of the kids that you have. And don't forget that God created them. He knowingly chose you to be their parents. He chose you for them, and He chose them for you. 

As parents, I think one of the things we need to remember is that we're shepherds of our kids' hearts and minds and spirits. We didn't create our kids and we don't create our kids. Parents need to hear you're not going to mess up. Yes, you're going to make mistakes. We all are going to make mistakes. 

But God knew who your children were before He gave them to you. He knows the plans and the purposes He has for them. I think we can take comfort, actually, when we think about it, that our responsibility, although a big one, to guide and shepherd and lead our children doesn't dictate who our kids are. [00:05:32] 

God created them. He put those talents and abilities in them. He has plans and purposes for them. Our job is not to make it, whatever it is, happen for our kids. Our job is really to cooperate with the Lord and to be led by the Holy Spirit in raising them. 

Do you want some specific things I've kind of learned about different ages of kids? Is that helpful? 

Laura Dugger: That would be really helpful because often so many parents are asking, is this normal? So maybe something normal from all ages. 

Penny Harrison: Right. Well, I think one of the things is remembering that we are raising a human being, a being with a will of its own. And that being that's going to become an adult one day, they're going to be disobedient. That's normal. They're going to mess up. That's normal. They're going to experience success. They're going to experience failure. That's all normal. 

And it's not our job to keep them from failing. I actually think we do our kids a great disservice when we catch them every time. And because we're raising a human being, it is messy and it is unpredictable and there is never a one-size-fits-all. [00:06:42] 

I think anyone who has more than one child could tell you that because every child that you have is different in some way. I know raising my boys I would think they're from the same parents and they're raised in the same household and yet they couldn't be any more different, right? 

For parents of toddlers in preschool, think about what you do now in terms of how it will look when they are teenagers. Are we holding them to a biblical standard?

 

Obviously, that is age-appropriate. Take obedience, for instance, because no child, no human being actually wants to obey all the time. 

If you have a toddler or preschooler, you know how exhausting it can be, that battle of wills, no, no, no, no, no, all the time, right? And that's normal. They're really figuring out what power they have in this world that they live in. They've come through the baby stage where they've learned that if I pick up something and I drop it, Oh, if I drop it off my high chair, it falls to the ground. 

They've learned sort of this power that they have over things. And when they go into toddlers and even preschoolers, they're still trying to figure out how much power they have in the world that they live in. [00:07:55]

What actions do they do that affect something else, so to speak? In those moments for parents who are living through that right now, take a deep breath and remember that teaching them the boundaries and obedience in those times it's not just about the moment of those boundaries and the moment of that obedience to you. But long term, it's going to be about the boundaries that the Lord sets for them and the obedience to the Lord. They're going to need to follow and obey Him when they're in a relationship with Him or when they're older, obviously. 

So I think just standing firm and really seeing that your child has a mind of their own and a will of their own is a blessing, and loving that little strong-willed sayer of no in the moment, but also remembering that what you're doing and showing them is ultimately leading them to how they're going to obey and have those boundaries with the Lord. [00:08:58] 

For elementary kids, and because I teach elementary kids too, I think about teaching them how much room you can give them to mess up a little bit. The stakes are really low at that age when they fail, when they mess up. The safeness of your home, the comfort of your loving household, let them fail. Teach them how to brush it off, to stand back up and to try again, to not give up. 

The stakes and the consequences become much bigger as they get older, especially I think in the society that we live in right now. I mean, we all hear the term helicopter parents. We want to protect our kids. And I think we live in a world where we feel like we have to protect our kids more than ever. And I'm not saying that's not true. 

But I also think it's really important to allow our children to have a place to fail and for them to know it's okay to make mistakes. Even going back to the classroom this last year, I've had to have this conversation with parents whose kids think they cannot make a mistake. I mean, there are five. I'm trying to teach them that in my classroom and encouraging parents in that way to say to kids, "It's okay to mess up". [00:10:07] 

Laura Dugger: What might that actually look like to allow an elementary school child to fail? When you say the stakes are low, what's an example that you can think of? 

Penny Harrison: This seems super common sense, but I think it's just a reminder. When you think about a child, let's say they have a project at school and the teacher has obviously given them, this is the standard by which you're going to be graded. But you allowing your child to do it, you know, the way that their mind thinks it needs to be done and you not stepping in and saying, "Well, you know what? Like if you put that picture on the poster board crooked, it doesn't look very neat." I mean, it sounds really simple and it sounds almost silly, but that's an example. 

I mean, I was guilty of the same thing when my kids were doing things that I would think, Oh, I need to tell them not to do it that way, which I'm not saying we don't guide our kids and say, Hey, have you thought about, you might not want your picture to be crooked on your poster board. I'm not saying you don't give them guidance. But I think so many times we step in and we almost do it for them. [00:11:13] That's just a simple little example. 

I think another thing too, this is an example from my own life, my youngest son was a big soccer player. He was having issues on his team, really with his coach. And it would have been really easy for me to go to the coach and say, "Hey, this is the way he is taking how you're saying this." 

And I really felt from the Lord I wasn't supposed to step in. I was supposed to let him fail a little bit on the practice field, let his coach yell at him or whatever he was doing, and so that my son could know, "You know what, I can go to him and say, this is what I'm hearing you say, this is how I'm supposed to do it, and maybe I'm not doing it right. I need to know what you want me to do." 

So he could almost learn what it meant to be his own advocate. I think if I had stepped in for him and I had gone to the coach and said, "This is what he's hearing," I wasn't giving my son an opportunity to grow in that way. Did he have some failure there? Absolutely. But the stakes were low. It was soccer. It was just a team thing. He figured it out. [00:12:21] 

Later, the stakes and the consequences for them not really knowing what it means to kind of have a speed bump or a failure of some kind is much bigger later. I think just encouraging parents to kind of be hands-off when we can and not to feel like we have to step in so quickly. 

Laura Dugger: Definitely. Those are really helpful examples. Do you have any other examples for junior high or high school students? 

Penny Harrison: You know, middle school is... whew, man, that's a tough three years. I always said you feel like it's almost like your child disappears for about three years. All of a sudden you don't recognize them. And the bottom line is they don't recognize themselves either. And I think we forget that. 

I always tell people middle schoolers are like really big toddlers. So remember how your toddler acted where they could cry over a broken cookie one minute and they were laughing because you said the word poop the next, you know? Or they have this do-it-myself mentality one minute and the next minute they want to crawl up in your lap and be rocked. [00:13:26] 

Well, that is how a middle schooler acts. They're just a lot bigger, and their emotions are all over the place. They're unpredictable. They have no idea who they are. One minute they are a kid, and the next minute they think they're grown. And you never know which one you're going to get as the parent. 

I tell people when my kids would wake up when they were in middle school, I was always like, "Okay, which one am I going to get today? Am I going to get the kid, or am I going to get the person who thinks he's a grownup?" 

So my advice for middle school parents is first of all, be patient. And second of all, get a group of other parents around you that you trust, that you can talk to, that we're in this together, and that you can have some conversations around like, This is what's happening with my kid. Is this normal? 

Now, in saying that, I would say keep your hands out of friendship issues as much as you can, because I feel like with middle schoolers too, they go through kind of a push-and-pull time with their friends, even for a friend that's been a friend for years. [00:14:34] Because again, they're still trying to figure out who they are. One minute they relate to their friend and the next minute they don't. So try not to fix that for them. Let them figure it out. 

I think it's really, really important for parents at every stage but I feel like middle school is when it becomes more evidently important is that you have other parents who are in your corner that you can talk to. And this is the thing that I always tell people. I did this with my friends who were parents of my kids' friends, is we would say, "if you find something out that you think is something I need to know, you've heard something, you've seen something on social media, whatever that is, I need you to know that you can call me and I'm not going to be defensive. I'm going to listen, and then I'm going to decide how to proceed from there with my child. But I need to know that there are other parents looking out for my kids, and I'm looking out for yours."

Because there's a lot of, especially with social media, in the day and time that we live, it's so easy for us not to know some things that might be going on with our kids in middle school and high school. And we need to know that we have people who are looking out for our kids like we are. [00:15:44] And we're looking out for their kids. And we have that open communication. And we're not going to be defensive and feel like somebody's telling us we're not a great parent because our kid did this thing. We need to be able to have those conversations with each other. 

Again, I would say middle schoolers, parents, hang in there because there's something about they hit high school and all of a sudden your kid comes back and you're like, "Oh, I recognize you again." And you're a little bigger and you're a little more mature, but you've come back to me. I recognize this kid again. 

Laura Dugger: I think that's really practical. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: I'm so excited to tell you about our sponsor for this episode, FabFitFun. FabFitFun is a seasonal subscription box with full-size beauty, fitness, fashion, and lifestyle products. Each season's epic box features a variety of amazing and quality brands, like Anthropologie or Free People. And that's just the beginning of it. I was so excited as I waited to receive my first box in the mail. [00:16:50] 

If you subscribe for the year, it kind of feels like getting a birthday gift that arrives four times per year. And you never know which product you're going to discover in their box that will become your new favorite. 

It also makes a great gift for a friend or a spouse. It's not only fun to anticipate the arrival of the box, but then you also get to enjoy the products once the box arrives. 
FabFitFun is an amazing deal because its value is over $200 per box, but you're going to pay less than $50. Check them out at FabFitFun.com. That's FabFitFun.co and use the code SAVVY so you can save $10 off your first box, making it only $39.99. Again, that's FabFitFun.com and use the code SAVVY, S-A-V-V-Y. These seasonal boxes sell out fast, so sign up for yours today at FabFitFun.com Thanks for your sponsorship. 

Laura Dugger: As it relates to parenting, what truths do you find in the Bible that we may not have considered? 

Penny Harrison: This is one of the things I would say first is stop trying to be a good parent. Instead, be a faithful parent. Nowhere in Scripture does it say to be a good parent. [00:18:13] That's not used in the Bible anywhere. 

We're given instruction to bring our children up in the training and instruction of the Lord. We're encouraged to impart wisdom and hold our children to a standard of obedience. We're called to shepherd their hearts and their minds and their spirits, and it's a huge responsibility. But again, nowhere does it say to be a good parent. 
I think "good parenting", that kind of term, has caused confusion and unnecessary comparisons, and maybe even some discontent. It's just so subjective. How you might define good parenting is not the same way I would define good parenting. So we start to compare ourselves. 

She's a good mom because of this, or he's a good dad because of this, or I'm a bad mom because I don't do it that way. And we do this comparison thing, and I think it really actually ends up hindering our parenting because we're not relying on the one who gave us these precious little creations in the first place. We're relying on what we see outside of ourselves. [00:19:25] 

What we end up doing is comparing our kids to other people's kids. It puts a lot of pressure on us as parents, and it also puts a lot of pressure on our kids. So I say, don't even use those words. Good mom, good dad. Just be a faithful parent instead and ask the Lord to show you how to be a faithful parent. 

We have to remember that we're an example of the Holy Spirit for them. Until they have their own relationship with the Lord and they can be led by the Holy Spirit, we're that example of the Holy Spirit for them. We have to love them for who God created them to be. Stop stressing ourselves out. 

Kids as young as second grade are being diagnosed with anxiety disorders. So think about that. What does a second grader really, what should a second grader have to be anxious about? Nothing. The Lord reminded me, there's a verse in Ephesians, Ephesians 6:4, and it says, "Fathers, do not exasperate your children. Instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord." 

Do not exasperate your children. And I think we can't exasperate our kids unknowingly. There's this undercurrent of the standard of what... something that they can't really live up to, maybe. I think that just is a recipe for disaster. [00:20:44] 

Ask the Lord to lead you and be faithful to what He has given you to be a faithful steward to what He has put in your care. And then ask the Lord to remind you, what am I looking at that's eternal? What am I concentrating on that's just temporal? What's only going to last on this earth that's not going to matter for eternity? And then ask the Lord to help you lead your kids that way. 

Laura Dugger: I think that language shift from good to faithful is really important because it seems like that would lead to a change in our behavior and really our freedom in our thoughts and pressures that we put on ourselves.

Penny Harrison: Absolutely. Absolutely. It does take the pressure off when you think, You know what? God gave them to me. Yes. I want to be a faithful, to be a good steward to what He's given me. But ultimately, with anybody not just our kids, this is for everybody, salvation and... all of that is the Lord's responsibility. 

It's our responsibility to show our kids who the Lord is and to lead them to the Lord but the Lord is the one who works in all of our hearts, including our children. 

What it comes down to is we're putting much more stock in what we can do and not enough in what the Lord can and will do. [00:22:01] And when it comes to raising our kids, man, that's a dangerous place to be. It's all on me. I'm in trouble, right? 

Laura Dugger: And that can lead to so many things in pride. And you can see in the scriptures that He wants us to be dependent on Him. 

Penny Harrison: Absolutely. 

Laura Dugger: Well, I know for my husband and me, a few of our goals in parenting are for our children to personally choose to surrender their lives to Christ so that we can spend eternity together in heaven. And we also hope to have solid relationships with each of them when they're adults. So again, from your years of observation of families, have you seen any similar characteristics of these families who are a little bit further along and they're enjoying the culmination of these goals? 

Penny Harrison: Well, did either of your parents ever say, do as I say not as I do? Mine would say that sometimes. And I think that would be, it's like, do as I say is super important. I don't think that mindset on parenting is super helpful. [00:23:03] 
Now, let me say this. My parents are awesome parents. My mom is one of my best friends. She's amazing. But I do think we can talk and talk and talk to our kids until we're blue in the face, but our kids are savvy and they watch what we do. So I think we want our kids to have a relationship with the Lord. 

Obviously, are we showing them our relationship with Him? Are we praying and reading our Bibles and going to church and living like a missionary? Are we loving our neighbors? We can tell our kids to do and be all of those things, but if they don't have real examples in us, they most likely won't because they won't know how. 
And so I think one of the biggest things I've seen as a characteristic of families, that I can look at these families and say, wow, they really see the fruit in their children's lives of things that they did, kind of really boils down to one thing, and that's intentionality. 

We live in this world, this affluent society, and we're typically very intentional about certain things. We're intentional about the school that our kids go to. We're intentional about the things that our kids do and don't watch on TV. We're intentional about, you know, are they on this soccer team or this soccer team? We're intentional about, oh, they need this dance class so they can do this dance class. We're intentional about those kind of things. [00:24:29] 

But are we as intentional about our kids' spiritual walk? Do we read the Bible to our kids? Do we read the Bible with our kids? Do we point out God's goodness and his provision in our lives all the time? Do we make God and His word a part of our daily language with our kids?

I'll give you a couple of examples. So let's say that, you know, Dad comes home from work one day, he's had a really bad day. And he's particularly down, the family sits down to eat, and he shares that he's found out he has to lay off part of his staff. I mean, that's a real grown-up worry, right? 

So depending on the age of the kids, Dad can share that with the family. This is what's going on, and then talk about how that's affecting him. Because I think sometimes we protect our kids from thinking we ever struggle, that we ever have any kind of worry, that we ever have any kind of hard thing that happens to us. [00:25:30] 

But let's say Dad shares that example with his family, then the family is able to pray about it with him. They're able to talk about, okay, how is God going to lead us through this? How is God going to lead Dad through having to have these conversations with his staff? How is he going to lead him through kind of dealing with, if it's guilt or whatever that is, as he's having to let people go and these people aren't going to have jobs? 

I think we need to show our kids that God is not just a part of Sunday morning. It's not just a part of when we go to Bible study or our small group on Wednesday night or whatever that is. He's a part of every decision we make. He's a part of helping us through the hard times. He's a part of us rejoicing with Him when the things are going well, that He listens to us when we pray, that He answers us, that He guides us.  

One of the things that I've seen in families where you see this really great fruit in their children is that parents were intentional about making that a part of the daily conversation. [00:26:39] 

I think another thing, and this was huge with my kids, when I would talk to them about God and His Word and what His Word says and teaches us every day, that I saw the fruit of that later. And here's what I mean. Every kid is going to make a bad decision. It might be a little one, it might be a big one, but they're going to. Every kid. 

Or at the very least, you're going to have to have a tough conversation with your kid, right? You're going to have to talk about something either they've done or that friends are doing or... you're going to have a tough conversation with your kids. 
And as a Christian parent, most likely we're going to want to pull in what God thinks about this topic and what God's word says about this topic. In that moment, the question is, will our kids see that as we're preaching to them, or will their kids see that as a natural part of the conversation? 

And I think if we're intentional about making God and His Word and what His Word says a part of our conversation from the time that they can even have a conversation, that when you have to sit down and have a conversation about a decision that's going to be made or that has been made, it doesn't feel like you're beating your kids over the head with scripture, it feels like a natural part of, oh yeah, this is part of any conversation we have. [00:28:05] 

Where I've seen parents really be blessed by the fruit in their children's lives later on is that intentionality from the beginning. 

Laura Dugger: Thanks so much to Kp4me who left a 5-star rating and review on iTunes with this quote. "I absolutely love the intro episode and hearing the personal stories of The SavvySauce team. The obvious smiles behind the voices brought a smile to my own face while I listened. Can't wait to listen to every episode. I'm fairly new to the world of podcasts. Savvy Sauce is an awesome place to start." 

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that. This grassroots approach is the best way to get the Savvy Sauce podcast in front of more people so that we can continue to get amazing guests on the show and receive sponsors who make the shows financially possible to produce. Thanks for your contribution. 

From a previous conversation you and I had, you mentioned that God is teaching you about the word perspective. So what are you learning about perspective right now? [00:29:07] 

Penny Harrison: Well, it may be an age thing, but I definitely think this word "perspective" is something I've been hearing from the Lord over the last year, really strongly in the last few months. Some of that is connected to what I've been allowed to share with parents, talking to them about how every age of raising kids is hard for different reasons. 

So I have a heart for telling or trying to kind of convince parents in some cases that it will all get better. Because, you know, obviously, I have perspective because I'm past that. But I also think that the Lord has put on my heart for young parents, in particular, is just reminding them not to sweat the small things, refocus on the bigger picture, what is God saying to you for your child, what are the specific prayers you have for your kids? Those kind of things. Not so much looking at the now, but keeping eternal fruit in mind. 

I always just want to say, will it really matter later that your child is the best soccer player when he's eight years old? Is that going to matter? It matters now. Of course it does. But what is he learning through the process of playing soccer or whatever that thing is that's going to be kingdom values later? [00:30:17] 

I think in my walk with the Lord, I've definitely gained some perspective. We have those moments where we feel like we're climbing or even moving mountains with the Lord and then we have those desert or valley kind of times. 

I think for me personally, what the Lord has been so sweet to remind me of, is that those changes in kind of the temperature of my faith walk are not always a result of what I am or am not doing. The Lord never changes, so our circumstances will change, and sometimes it feels like our closeness to Him changes, but that's really our perspective, because He's always there. He's always working. He never forsakes us. 

And so I think for me, perspective has just really been about remembering that I can't always see that, that I don't always feel that, but His perspective is sovereign and eternal and mine is not. So I trust Him to change my perspective, to be more like His, and to remember that His love for me is not dependent on me. His love for me is about who He is, not who I am. [00:31:25] 

I think for me my walk with Him has just been about "it's not about what I do or don't do". And when I say do or don't do, I really mean like the works that I do. God created me to be such a kind of obedient servant, which could be a good thing, but I can get in a ditch if I am just trying to do instead of just be with Him. And so I think the Lord has just really given me a new perspective on that. 

Then, I think I've just gained some perspective on the world, this crazy world that we live in. Even in my own circle of influences, I just have to stop worrying about things so much. Honestly, it's been a gift from the Lord that the things that used to really bother me don't bother me anymore. 

I would get crazy anxious or worried or even a little angry about things that happened in my life or things that happened in the lives of others that I loved. And God has just given me a more healthy perspective where I worry less. I don't really get my feathers ruffled too much. [00:32:34] 

And there is a righteous anger, obviously, when we allow our hearts to be broken by the things that breaks the Lord's heart. I mean, we can look at some of the things happening in our world and even in our city and we can have this righteous anger that we know that's not what God would want to be happening. But perspective for me has really come down to remembering to daily lay those things at the Lord's feet. 

Somebody gave me a picture once, and I think this is really a great one, is that if you picture the cross and you go up and you lay the things at the Lord's feet for the day. Do you in turn get up to walk away and pick something back up and take it with you? Or do you really leave it there? So sometimes I really have to remind myself, Lord, give me that picture that I'm laying these things down, and when I get up from your feet, when I walk away, my hands are empty. 

Laura Dugger: You also say that the Lord has equipped you to talk about dealing with deep sorrow and betrayal and forgiveness. Are you willing to elaborate? [00:33:40] 

Penny Harrison: So deep sorrow for me, really for the first time in my life, happened in 2002 when I experienced the stillbirth of my third child, a boy that we named Austin. Honestly, I was so confused and I was... I was mad. I was mad at God. 
Months earlier, when we had decided to expand our family, I really felt like it was a leading from the Lord because I really had thought, you know, my family's finished after two and then the Lord really led me to know that I was to have another child. And so I had this anger of why would He lead me to have a child only to take Him away? 

So in that confusion and anger with the Lord, I received some very wise counsel from my pastor at the time. He told me it's okay and even appropriate to be angry, to be mad, to stomp your feet, even yell at God if you have to, but just don't stop talking to Him. He reminded me that God is big enough to take my anger, but what He didn't want was for me to give up on Him. The Lord did not want me to give up on Him. And so I did. I stomped my feet. I yelled. I cried. And God really met me there. And I think more importantly, I met Him there. I met Him in a deeper way than I ever had before. [00:35:00] 

And I really learned in those months following my loss what it meant to have joy even when I was as far from happy as I can get. I don't think I had ever experienced that before. I know I hadn't. I think after that, I really loved God more than ever before. So that loss and that sorrow and how my faith grew during that time would later be the reason I survived a devastating betrayal. You know how God just uses everything we go through for something else that we're probably going to go through later. Betrayal, man, it's tough. It is rough. 

I think we all suffer betrayal on some level in our lives, whether that's in an intimate relationship with a friend, a family member, a spouse, or sometimes we're unjustly accused by someone we know or someone we don't know. There's just all kinds of betrayals. [00:35:54] 

Mine was in the context of marriage. My husband, we had been married for seventeen years, together for almost twenty at that point, he had an affair. And when I discovered it—the way I discovered it was totally the Lord. That's a whole other story—the affair had already been gone on for about seven months. Over seven months actually. 

I certainly don't want to drag my ex-husband or the father of my children through the mud by sharing all the gory details, but it was nothing less than devastating. Brutal actually the months that followed after me discovering the affair. 

I had a ten and a thirteen-year-old boy at the time, and so I'm trying to kind of navigate my own questioning of everything, losing my sense of stability, kind of knowing that my future now was going to look very different than I had ever imagined it would. I also had to answer the questions my boys had, and I had to assure them, and I had to lead them to forgiveness and keep them away from bitterness toward their dad. [00:37:01] 

Like I said, betrayal is awful. It is brutal. But as the Lord leads you through that kind of pain, He also guides you to forgiveness. The sorrow I had felt when I lost Austin, because of the closeness I felt with the Lord then, it helped me in that time of betrayal to really lean on the Lord. 

The Lord leads you through something like that. He leads you through forgiveness. That verse that the Lord tells us to forgive seventy times seven, that was never more real for me than during the time that my marriage was falling apart and the divorce that followed. 

I had to forgive for myself, and I had to forgive for my kids, and I had to forgive out of obedience to the Lord. I mean, I had to forgive and continue to pray for this man who was no longer my husband, but was the father of my kids. I had to pray for the person that I once knew and the person that I honestly could look at and say, I don't know him anymore. [00:38:06] I had to pray for someone who was lost. 

Part of the thing that happened in the divorce is that my husband told me that he had tried the God thing and it didn't work for him. So I had to pray for this person who had walked away from the Lord. And the Lord just continued to show me over and over and over how to forgive. He healed my heart. He redeemed my suffering. 
The Lord even led me to have a face-to-face experience with my ex-husband and his girlfriend, where I was able to tell them face-to-face that I had forgiven them. And just the healing and the redemption that came that was evident for my heart was just miraculous, honestly. 

What the Lord has done through that sorrow and betrayal and forgiveness is He really equipped me to minister to other people. I think part of the mystery and sovereignty of the Lord is that He can take what often seems like the most terrible parts of our story and He uses it for good. [00:39:09] Not that He causes the sorrow, I don't believe he causes betrayal, but He can and He does redeem it. 

I've had the opportunity, the privilege really to speak truth and hope into others' lives because of my experience, which is really nothing short of a miracle to minister to other people, especially women who have gone through some of the same things. 

Laura Dugger: Penny, I just have knots in my stomach hearing about this pain, but I do see how God gets the glory when you share your story because nobody could display joy like you are right now after such devastating experiences if it were apart from God. 

Just to follow up, going back to your story, even with Austin, did you know ahead of time that there were any complications or was it right when he was born? 

Penny Harrison: Well, I was what they would consider a mature. That's a nice way of saying you're an older mom. I was having a lot of tests just to make sure everything was okay, and I went in for one ultrasound, and they let me know that my amniotic fluid was a little low, which they weren't too concerned about. [00:40:22]

 

The baby was growing. He was doing well. 

Actually, what's very interesting is that we did not know it was a boy at the time. Every time I went for an ultrasound they couldn't get a clear picture is it a boy or a girl. So we didn't know. So I ended up on bed rest only because my amniotic fluid was low. The baby was growing. I was hitting all the markers. I had not had any pain, no bleeding of any kind. None of that at all. 

I went for a checkup right at the end of my pregnancy and because I was on bed rest, I couldn't drive. And so my dad took me to the appointment. And when I got there, they did an ultra... Hey, let's do another ultrasound before, you know, this baby's born in a week or two. And there was no heartbeat. So they had to induce me, so I delivered Austin. 

Again, because still even that late I did not know if it was a boy or a girl, we had picked out a girl name, but had not picked a boy name. [00:41:23] But my two sons they had continued to say, "Mom, if it's a boy, we want you to name him Austin." I don't know where they came up with that name, but they just kept saying it. So when I delivered him and it was a boy, we, of course, named him Austin. 

And what's so cool... Again, this is just, again, how God is just so sovereign. And we never even realize how He's working until we look back. But later, probably two years after we lost Austin, I was cleaning out a cabinet and I found a baby name book, and it had been from years before when I'd had my son Matthew, and I had written down names that I liked, and I had circled the name Austin in that book and did not remember that. And here my two boys had come up with this name, what we thought was out of the blue, but obviously, the Lord had downloaded that name into their hearts for whatever reason. 

So I would say there were complications in the sense that I was on bed rest, but never any inkling that we were going to lose our child. 

Laura Dugger: So devastating regardless of when you discover that news. Some of our listeners have walked through similar experiences and maybe there's some people that we don't even know who are listening today and this is fresh for them. So how did you really survive after that? [00:42:49] 

Penny Harrison: I think the wise counsel that I got that it was okay to be mad. Because I think any woman who has lost a child whether that's been an early miscarriage or that's been a stillbirth or that's been, you know, they've had their child and they've lost them devastatingly to cancer, whatever that is. I think that we need permission to feel the pain. We need permission to be mad.

 
And I think for me, I think it was one of those moments where I was like, there's someone right now who is having a child they don't even want. You know, that was what I said to the Lord. And I'm a mom who, you know, I love my children and you know that I want to leave my children to you. And how is it fair? 

I think that just having that permission to be mad and to really talk to the Lord, and I think because I was given that permission and I actually did those things, the Lord healed my heart. He healed it. I remember the first time that I went somewhere with my other two kids and I actually laughed again, when the laughter first came out of my mouth I almost felt guilty. Like I'm still supposed to be sad. [00:44:04] 

And the Lord reminded me, That is joy that is bubbling up in you. You're still not fully happy, but you have joy. And because your joy is in me, I will make your joy complete. That's what He promises us. So I would say to that mom, you know what?

 

Yes, it hurts, and it's okay to be sad, and it is okay to be angry, but to talk to the one who can fix it. 

Talk to your friends. Talk to your spouse. Talk to your pastor. But don't forget to talk to the one who can heal you. And He will. It seems impossible in the moment because you're so devastated. You think you'll never be joyful again, but you will. The Lord will give you that. He promises that, and He is faithful. 

Laura Dugger: Yes, thank you for that encouragement. But you had mentioned that there is a whole story with the Lord for how you did discover the betrayal. Would you like to share that story? [00:45:10] 

Penny Harrison: Oh, it's such a God story. I was a children's pastor for 18 years, and about a year before the betrayal happened and I discovered it, the Lord had led me to leave my current ministry job at a church and go with a church plant to another church. In doing that, my husband and I both were on the leadership team. 
So this church plant that was starting, there were 30 total adults and 17 kids. And there was a group of eight of us, four couples that were on this leadership team. So we were very involved in getting this church started and all of that. And so I was actually teaching full time and doing the ministry job part-time. Because I had gone with this church plant, they couldn't pay me, so I went back to teaching full-time. So I was doing both. 

The very morning that we were to open the doors of this new church to the public... We had been meeting together in a little house. We had finally kind of gotten our own little space and a storefront. And the very morning that we were to open the church to the public, I did what I did every morning. I got up early. I got ready. I was going off to my ministry job. My husband would get the kids ready, and they would come to church later. [00:46:23] 

So I went downstairs to leave, it was if my feet were frozen and the Lord said to me very clearly, "Pick up his phone." Now, I had never looked at my husband's phone. I never looked in his wallet. There was no reason for me ever to thought I couldn't trust him. And I just thought that was the strangest thing. And it was like the Lord would not let me take one more step until I obeyed. 

And he said, "Pick up his phone." And so I did. I picked up the phone and there was a text message, obviously from a woman, very intimate message to my husband. So I went upstairs and woke him up and we had this whole thing and life just crumbled around me. 

But I believe, with everything in me, two things. One, the Lord revealed it to me. There were little things that had happened months before. Little things like go walk the dog with him. He doesn't need to walk the dog by himself tonight. Go walk. And I would walk. And later I found out he was using those times of being out of the house to talk to her on the phone and that kind of thing. So there were little things. [00:47:43] 

But this morning, I believe with everything in me, the reason that the Lord stopped me in my tracks and had me discover that devastating thing then was for me, but it was also for the church. Because here was a person on the leadership team of this church that was about to open its doors to the public. And what better way for the enemy to attack a church than that, right? 

I think that the Lord had me find out that moment, not only to protect me from any further pain or any of that, I also think it was to protect His church. I believe that with everything in me. 

When I found out it was God's timing, it obviously wasn't His plan or His timing that it was happening at all. But I think when the Lord revealed it to me, it was definitely something that needed to happen when it did. And it protected not only me in the long run, but it also protected this new church that was being born that needed its leadership to be following Him and not sinning. [00:48:49] 

Laura Dugger: Wow. Your perspective is just incredible. You've said that going through those awful circumstances has now helped you comfort others. And I think that's just my prayer for today, that whoever is listening, that this would be a comfort to them, even if they are experiencing something traumatic like you had. 

Penny Harrison: Well, I hope so, too. I think that's just the mystery and the goodness of God, how He takes the bad things in our lives, and He can use it for the good of those who love Him. I definitely have seen Him do that in my life. 
Again, I've just had the privilege and the honor to be able to speak truth into other people's lives when they've come to me and said, "Hey, this is happening. You know, can you help me? Tell me, tell me how you live through this." You know, I think the Lord can use that. And that's just such a blessing when you know, okay, this was painful for me, but hopefully I can share hope with someone else that's going through it. [00:49:54] 

Laura Dugger: You clearly just have so much to offer, Penny. I know that it says in the Bible that sometimes Jesus was amazed by someone's faith. Today I just want to let you know I'm amazed by your faith. So thank you for being faithful and being such a witness, really, to all of us. 

If somebody would want to find you online, where can they go? 

Penny Harrison: Well, a couple of places. I have a website for my ministry consulting business. My business is called It's Not Child Care and I have a website, itsnotchildcare.com. They can find me there. I also have a blog called Straight Talk Wavy Life. The address for that is just pennyharrison.blogspot.com. 

Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will surely link to all of these in the show notes. I've really just appreciated this time together. So I have one final question for you. 

Penny Harrison: Okay. 

Laura Dugger: We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge or discernment. And so I am curious, what is your savvy sauce? [00:51:01] 

Penny Harrison: Well, it's not very spiritual, but for me it is key. My savvy sauce is to laugh every day. Talk to someone who makes you laugh, watch a comedy, read something, just do something that makes you laugh. Laughter is just a mood changer.

I'm kind of an easy laugher, so this isn't really... It's not hard for me. I mean, I can just talk to one of my kids, my two sons, they make me laugh all the time, or I can read a funny blog, or honestly, I can just watch an episode of an old episode of Friends on Netflix and I'll laugh. So I just try to do one thing every day that will make me laugh. You know that saying, you rather laugh than cry? So I try to choose laughter and I just try to find something to make me laugh every day. 

Laura Dugger: I love it. That's a great challenge to end on. Thank you for all the nuggets of wisdom that you shared with us today. It's been a pleasure.

Penny Harrison: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor. [00:52:01] 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:53:07] 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:54:09] 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. [00:55:07] 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.