49 Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears

 

49. Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Genesis 2:25 (NIV) “The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.” 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese is a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist with special training in sex education from a Christian perspective. She is also a wife and a lover of coffee, good books and travel. She is currently involved in a project with Dr. Rosenau, author of Celebration of Sex, to teach teens how to enjoy their friendships and dating relationships while holding to Christian convictions. Additionally, she serves on the advisory board at Millennials for Marriage- a group that aims to encourage millennials to be equipped for marriage. 

 

Dr. Jessica McCleese’s Website

 

The Discomfort of Intimacy Article by Dr. Jessica McCleese

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sexual Wholeness

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 
As a teacher or counselor, have you ever wished you could get more training on healthy sexuality or to have better skills in helping people deal with the sexual part of their lives? Sexual Wholeness is a Christian teaching organization desiring to help you accomplish this goal through classes and helpful resources. Visit them online at sexualwholeness.com. 

Today we get to speak with Dr. Jessica McLeese. She is a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist. She's going to teach us more about our sexual response cycles and explain how they impact our differing libidos in marriage. We also discuss how to increase the level of joy in our intimate connection with our spouse. I hope you enjoy today's chat. 

Welcome, Dr. McLeese. 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Thank you, Laura. I'm so glad to be here and be a part of this today. 

Laura Dugger: Well, we're so excited to have you join us. For those who don't know you yet, can you start off by just telling us a little bit about your story? [00:01:32] 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. I'm a licensed psychologist, and I often hear people ask or joke, like, what made you decide to go into therapy? Because everybody that goes into therapy have some sort of working out their own issues. And there's a lot of truth to that. 

My story is one of the surviving sexual abuse and having some sexual trauma really that occurred pretty frequently from the moment I entered high school until I left and then a little after that. So I have that as part of my background. 

Dad's a preacher, so I have that as my background too. Pretty much living in the church. We always joke cutting my teeth on the altar. I was very used to being in church and things like that. I went to school to try to decide what I wanted to do with my life and started out with an interest in youth ministry. 

In the process of working through that degree, I was expected to take several counseling classes. While I was in some of those classes, one teacher, in particular, could tell from the writings that I was turning in that I just had a lot of brokenness in my past.

 

I remember reading one day on a paper that I had turned in, and I don't even remember what I said, but all it asked was the simple question, who hurt you? And that was it. She left no other comments. So soon after that, I started on my own journey of going into counseling. I spent, I would say, about two years in and out of counseling services, switched my degree at the time, and decided to start pursuing a counseling degree. [00:02:54]

 

And through that received a lot of healing from my own sexual brokenness. And in the midst of that also started realizing that a lot of people coming to me had a lot of brokenness in their relationships and in their sexuality, in their marriages. And so I kept seeing it over and over again in the office and decided to go further and really study what it means to have sexual wholeness. 

That's where I found the Association for Certificates in Sex Therapy. It's a Christian organization that I started with called the American Board of Christian Sex Therapists. And so it's been a pretty long journey that I would say has taken a good decade. 

But in the midst of that, I've learned how to recover from my own brokenness and then also how to bring healing to others. And I fully believe that we can only actually have healing through Christ but in His amazing goodness to us, He uses people to do that quite often. 

And so that's what I like to do is try to be the person, kind of the hands and feet of Christ, as many people say, and try to bring that encouragement to people and that healing and that light using Scripture, using wisdom, and just really loving on people. [00:03:58] 

Laura Dugger: That is beautiful testimony. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. As a sex therapist, will you educate us on two of the sexual response cycles that you have studied? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. There's kind of, I guess, two that are the bigger ones. Most people are familiar with the one that's by Masters and Johnson. And it would really be considered now that we have more education, the typical male response. 
In their model, what happens is you experience desire. So you notice your spouse, then arousal comes. So for men a lot of times that actually doesn't have to involve touching, it can involve just looking and noticing their spouse. But arousal comes after that and then you have sex, you get to what's called the orgasm stage where you actually do have the orgasm and then the plateau where you're just kind of not quite ready to have a sexual encounter again. 

This is the one that's typically taught. Even though it fits the male physiology more, it's often taught as the acceptable model. TV, movies, if they're trying to create this really sexy romantic couple, that's what you're going to see on both the man and the woman is more of the typical male response cycle. [00:05:05] 

Now, women, on the other hand, typically actually have more of what's called a receptive desire. So a lot of times men want for their wives to act a little bit more like them and seek them out and initiate sex. And certainly women can make themselves do that. And when I say "make", I don't mean force themselves. I mean they can get to a place where they realize how important it is and they can push themselves to be more of the initiator. 

But oftentimes, women have more what's called a receptive desire. So they're not necessarily thinking about sex, but if they make out with their spouse for a little while or if their spouse is being extremely kind or loving or sweet to them, then they might find, Hey, you know, I think sex might be nice tonight. 

But to have the sexual desire for a lot of women, they actually have to have the arousal first. So that means connection before the desire actually comes. And then they get to the orgasm stage. You know, for a lot of women, they can have multiple orgasms or they can kind of get close to orgasm and then it disappears and then it comes again. That's all normal for women. And then they have a plateau stage as well that actually doesn't usually last as long as it does for men. But that's the difference. [00:06:11] 

So men a lot of times want their wives to initiate when wives are more like, you know, "Gosh, I'm sorry, I just didn't think about sex at all for the last three days. And now that you're mentioning it, I realized maybe we should do this."

Now, do realize women if you're out there and you're saying no, actually I have a higher desire than my husband, you're still pretty doggone normal too because in about a third of marriages, that's actually what we see is that the woman has the higher desire and she's more likely to initiate.

So even though those two models exist and one is typically more male and the other is typically more female, men and women can't switch on that and have the opposite side, not necessarily the one that's the typical male or typical female response.

Laura Dugger: That's helpful to hear the difference between the two. This question may be more related to that second model. Women often say their skills in multitasking can actually feel like a disadvantage in the bedroom. So do you have any practical ideas that can help them be more present during lovemaking? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: It's so funny because that's really true. I often explain to couples that for women, our minds just go, go, go, go, go. And we experience all of our thought life quite differently. And it doesn't stop during sex. It goes right with us into the bedroom. [00:07:24] 

So for men, they really can't concentrate on one thing at a time. So if a man is having sex, that's what he's thinking about. Like his mind isn't on the latest sports team and if his team's going to win or not. Like he's not thinking about that. He doesn't care about that. 

But for women, even if they're enjoying the sexual relationship, they can think about, "Oh yeah, did I touch base with my mom? She's supposed to babysit the kids tomorrow. I didn't confirm with her yet." They can be thinking about: "I need to call Susan and see if we're still going to coffee". They may think about, Oh, we got to get dinner and groceries. They can think of all of this while they're having sex. It's just how the woman's mind works. 

When men hear that, in my office anyways, when men hear that and their wives start laughing and nodding their heads, guys are just shocked. They're like, "Really? You think about that during sex? Why would you think about that?" But the reality is that's how a woman's mind works. 

So, women, I would encourage you, if that's happening for you, it's okay to pray during sex. So it's okay to ask in those moments, God, help me focus on my husband. God, help me remember what's happening here. Help me to stay in the moment. 

And then to notice parts of your husband that you really want to focus on. So it may be his touch at that time. It may be his eyes as he's looking at you. It may be his hair, if you like his hair. It could be any of those things, but to really focus on him at that moment and make yourself keep going back to that place. What do I love about my husband? What do I love about this moment? That'll help you focus on and maintain and stay in the sexual relationship instead of wherever else your mind may go. [00:08:49] 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Something else that's common but rarely discussed is pain during intercourse. What are some examples of ways women can experience pain with sex? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: There's quite a few different ways that women can experience pain. So some women, if they have endometriosis, they may find that sex, in general, is painful, and then that pain may actually greatly increase with orgasm. So they may find that penetration doesn't hurt, but if they orgasm, it hurts really badly. 

Some women find that orgasm actually isn't the part that hurts and so manual stimulation is fine for them, but any kind of penetration is really painful. I have known of women where they can have pain sometimes and sometimes they can't and they cannot for the life of them figure out why is it painful sometimes and not painful others. Aging can do that as well because the vaginal lining can thin so that can cause pain. Lack of lubrication can do it. 

So we women are just so complicated in our physiology and so there are lots of different things that can actually cause pain and begin to experience some issues. [00:09:54] 

Another really big one is anxiety. So, for some women, they have really high anxiety. I see this a lot of times with Christian women who have remained virgins. And for some reason, everybody they know has told them how painful sex will be the first time. And so they go into the relationship expecting it to be really painful, and so the anxiety rises. And then they have painful intercourse because they're so anxious. So then they put those two things together and say, yeah, it's always going to be painful. Even thinking about sex raises anxiety and so they're just not in a place where they can enjoy the experience. 

So it's such a complicated issue. And if women come to see me because of painful intercourse, we're actually going to start, first of all, by doing a referral to a physician that can see if there's any kind of hormonal imbalances or any kind of issues related.

 

So a gynecological exam is what they're actually going to. 

So anything that would relate to any kind of structural type issues, so that's always a first call. And then we're going to also look at their levels of anxiety and kind of what they've learned about sex and what their expectations of sex are. 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful because like you said, it's so complex and there's so many underlying issues. [00:11:01] What are some of those underlying reasons women experience pain with intercourse? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. So the anxiety is a really big piece. I would always say, you know, anxiety is going to be one of the first things we look at. Any kind of infection can do that as well. So yeast infections can do that. Any other bacterial infections can do that as well. 

I've known of women who will have an allergy to something they're eating and it's actually hurting their physiology and causing vaginal discomfort because of that. So it might dry them out or it might cause inflammation. And they may not even know they have an allergy because they don't feel anything happening in the rest of their body. So figuring out those pieces too if there's any kind of issues related to food. 
I mean there's kind of a host of problems. Every once in a while there can be a structural issue. So a pelvic exam can help a woman find out if that's what's going on. That's really one of the more rare reasons, not typically something that's going to be an issue. 

Sometimes it can actually be they're not getting enough foreplay because maybe they've seen a lot of movies where women just jump into sex and seem to have the time of their lives. [00:12:05] And so a lot of women don't realize that they actually need approximately 15 minutes of foreplay to even be lubricated enough to enjoy sex. 

And a lot of times men don't realize that either, especially if they've watched a lot of pornography in the past or if they've watched a lot of movies where it seems like if a woman really loves them, they'll just jump into bed. 

We talked about the whole difference between the Masters and Johnson model and then more of that kind of receptive desire model. So if you expect, well, a woman's going to be ready for sex as quickly as the man is ready for sex, that can cause a lot of issues just with even the getting prepared for intercourse. And when I say getting prepared, I mean, you know, spending the time together, having a little foreplay first. 

So if a woman doesn't understand how her body works and her husband doesn't understand either, that can cause a lot of painful intercourse because they're just not really getting to the place where the body is actually receptive for sex. 

Laura Dugger: It sounds like there's so many different people that need to be on the team helping out. But you're first ruling out, like you said, the gynecological appointments, but that's more rare. Is that right? [00:13:07] 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Well, the structural issues would be more rare. So having some kind of gynecological problem, like maybe a yeast infection or any kind of bacterial infection, that wouldn't be as uncommon, but having something that's an actual structural damage. 

For instance, I knew of a woman once who had kind of a flap of skin, basically, that was there, but it wasn't the hymen. It was thicker than that would have been. So that would have been something abnormal. And so she experienced painful intercourse, where that was just a simple surgical procedure where they could remove that and she was fine. 

So every once in a while there's a structural issue. And that's what I mean. If it's actually an issue within the structure of the vagina, then that would be the one that's more rare and not as typical the cause of actual pain. 

It's a very multifaceted treatment. I believe that we've got to look at the entire person and entire body when we're working on any kind of sexual issues. And so we're not just looking at the actual event of having sex, but we're looking also at kind of relationship history, how comfortable you are together. We're looking at physical health, we're looking at emotional health and spiritual health, because if you kind of already feel like sex is dirty or maybe you're bad if you want sex very often, like all of those things can play into it as well. [00:14:22] 

So when we do counseling session that's focused more on the sexual pain, we're going to really get a history of everything that's going on in your life, not just the sexual relationship, to try to figure out what are some of these underlying issues. 
With sexual pain in particular, it's not as easy just to say, Well, go to a doctor, get treatment, and then you'll be good. Because that's not how it works. It's a very multifaceted issue. And once you've had painful sex once or twice, you kind of expect it from then on, which can be a big barrier for enjoying your sexual relationship as well. 

So there are lots of pieces we have to put into place. But if there is sexual pain and someone comes to see me, I 100% will always recommend that they also get a gynecological exam just so we can make sure that's on the right track and that they're healthy. Then also physical therapy which actually would be pelvic floor sessions and pelvic floor therapy. Usually, it's a physical therapist that does that. But those are the things that I always put in place too, kind of alongside what we're doing in talk therapy and sometimes as a prequel to talk therapy. But we always put that in place too to make sure that those areas are being taken care of. [00:15:28] 
I don't do any of that. What I do is the talking and the understanding your thinking patterns going into sex and So I always have someone else that's going to work alongside me for those areas to make sure that a woman is being taken care of in that way. 

Laura Dugger: That's so good. Like we mentioned, it definitely takes a team and yet there is help available. So hopefully that encourages somebody to reach out and get their treatment process started today. For somebody who is looking for treatment, any further treatment that you recommend for someone who is currently experiencing this? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Yeah. So one of the things that is just really helpful for people that have experienced sexual pain is what's called a dilator set. And for some women I've found that this can be kind of uncomfortable for them because they feel almost like it's a sex toy or a vibrator but it's really not. All it is is a medical device. And what it does is it slowly stretches the vagina so that sex is more comfortable but also so you can be more comfortable with the process of having sex. 

So the first one the smallest one is really small about the size of your pinky so it's a little bitty and then they get larger in diameter up to the size that would be considered kind of the normal size of a penis. Those are used slowly and they're used kind of at your own comfort level so that you can slowly stretch out the vagina. [00:16:50]

If a woman goes to physical therapy and they're doing some kind of pelvic floor type work like what I would expect any woman that's having pain, that's one of the first things they're going to mention to them is they're going to help them get one of those sets. 

They teach you about you want to be in a relaxed atmosphere. So you would do this alone in your room and you would be clean, maybe take a shower first. You don't do it in times of high stress or anxiety. But you kind of get into a place where you're feeling more relaxed and then you would use those dilator sets over time so you don't use one and go from the smallest to the largest in one evening. Over time you use them as you feel comfortable to move on. So that's one of the things. 
And if women have never heard of those, I actually teach them about the dilators. I show them pictures online, how to order them, and all of that. And there's plenty of companies that are really discreet, so they're going to send them very plain packaging. They don't have nudity included. Nothing like that. So they're very easy to use once you know how. 

Then also, husbands can work with their wives alongside this. So they can just be present in the room with them and sit with them in that process so that they feel like they're not so alone. Husbands can kind of comfort their wives by playing a role. [00:17:58] Maybe they'll talk with them a little bit beforehand and just be available if there's, you know, any fear or anxiety. 

So it's something that actually couples can do together and that way they can both feel involved and it doesn't feel like this is just the woman's work. Because really anytime we do any kind of sexual therapy at all, it's for both of the people in the couple, not one, even if one of them seems to have the actual presenting difficulty. 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

Sponsor: Today another anonymous donor stepped up to pay the sponsorship fee and share a very important organization with you. It's called Sexual Wholeness. Wouldn't you get excited and want to know more if you heard of an organization whose mission statement was commissioning a network of Christian therapists and educators to revolutionize the church with God's truth about sexuality? 

This Christian nonprofit organization, Sexual Wholeness, has that as their mission, and they work to accomplish it through classes and video-based resources. The Institute for Sexual Wholeness provides graduate courses in sex therapy for licensed therapists. These classes are offered in a three-day weekend intensive format in Atlanta, Georgia. [00:19:06] 

Taking these courses will not only increase your ability to deal with sexual issues, but it can also lead to a certification as a sex therapist through the American Board of Christian Sex Therapists. 

Sexual Wholeness also has the Christian Association of Sexual Educators, with video-based courses designed for church educators to facilitate in their local communities. Currently, there are three video-based courses, Dance of the Sexes on single sexuality, Covenant Lovers with sexual enrichment for married couples, and Heroes and Warriors for helping men with sexual integrity. 

In a sex-saturated culture, the Church needs trained educators and therapists to cultivate God's truth about sexuality with the freedom and wholeness that it will produce. 

Many of the guests on The Savvy Sauce have taken these courses, and then they come back to share with us all of their findings. These continue to be some of our most popular episodes, and they get shared around the world. We appreciate Sexual Wholeness, and we hope that you'll visit their website to find out more, sexualwholeness.com. [00:20:11] 

Laura Dugger: On your blog, you wrote a post called The Discomfort of Intimacy, and we can link to that in the show notes. But in it, you say that it can be surprisingly difficult to communicate messages with our spouse. So how can we train ourselves to be more vulnerable and communicative with our requests and our desires? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: So let me explain a little bit first about why it's difficult to have those conversations. Probably my favorite example of that is Adam and Eve. And not just my favorite, but the earliest example known to man we have the example of Adam and Eve. 

If you read in Genesis, they're hanging out in the garden and all is well. And then sin enters the world because they partake of the fruit that they weren't supposed to touch. And then scripture says that they realized they were naked and they hid themselves. But before that moment, they were naked and unashamed. 

So we all live in this place where we realize our own weaknesses, our own places of pain, our own places of vulnerability. And in those moments, we want to often do like Adam and Eve did. They ran and hid. Now, they ran and hid from God, the same God that they had talked to with no problem before then. [00:21:19] But they realized in their weakness that they had done wrong, and they realized that sin showed them how vulnerable they were, and so they try to run and hide. from the God that they knew that walked with them and talked with them. 

We do the same a lot of times in our marriage. We have this vulnerability where I know my spouse loves me, loves me so much he even asked me to marry him and spend our entire lives together. So I know my spouse loves me but there can be these times where there's a vulnerability there where I realize how weak I am and I have just a little bit of fear that if my husband knew this about me or if he knew that I was needy or knew that I was weak, he's not gonna love me anymore. 

And even saying it, it sounds ridiculous because we know it's not true and yet somehow we often believe that lie that my spouse won't love me if or my spouse won't love me when they find this out. So we sit in that place of really discomfort and being too scared to move forward and say, Here I am. 

So even something as simple as, Hey, you know, can we start having a date night? We can be very scared to have that conversation and instead we want to run and hide. [00:22:20] So we can be scared of having that conversation because we say, well, gosh, if you knew that I was so needy, that I'm asking you to spend time with me, even though we sit on the couch every night and watch TV, then you're going to think I'm weak or you're going to not like me or my goodness, you may tell me you don't have time for me. And that's a horrible thing to even consider.

So a lot of times we find that it's hard to express our needs because we just can't come to the place of saying, you love me despite my weakness. You love me despite my vulnerability. So we have that place of dissonance where I know what's true and yet I act and behave as if that isn't true. 

So I know my spouse loves me and I know my spouse wants the best for me and I know my spouse wants to connect with me, but if I ask for date night, I may find out I'm wrong and I may see that you don't love me and want to connect with me. So it's easier not to ask you instead of making myself vulnerable and saying, "This is what I need from you. Can you meet my need?"

So we often live with a fear of not moving forward and connecting because we're just afraid that we're going to be told we're not as important as we are. [00:23:21] 

Laura Dugger: Sure. And emotional connection really is the doorway to sexual connection. And that leads into my next question. How can couples increase their joy in the marriage bed? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Yeah, absolutely. So a big part of that is realizing, like you said, that need for emotional connection. I've had couples come to me and they really expect if we would have more sex, we'd be better off in our relationship. And then I take a look at their relationship and I say, "My goodness, sex is like the least of your worries right now, my friends. You gotta connect."

I often tell couples, as I'm listening to you guys, I can't help but think, who wants to sleep with the enemy? Like, no one will get in bed with the enemy, and yet you guys are kind of mean to each other, or you guys name-call, or you guys aren't close, so no wonder you don't want to have sex together. 

So oftentimes, really to increase that joy in the marriage bed, you actually have to increase it in the rest of the relationship. That means working on your friendship. That means working on ways to communicate better so that you can be heard. That means learning how to handle your conflict in a way that helps the marriage and not hurts the marriage. [00:24:27] 

So when we're looking at increasing the joy in sexuality, that is just such a small piece of the work we're really doing. Because what we're really doing is working on the entire relationship and getting to a place where you can feel comfortable within your actual union long before you ever make it into the bedroom. 

So this means enjoying your date nights and this means becoming friends again. I like to refer to the Greek loves that we know about. So the Eros and the Agape and the Phileo. So that friendship has to be strong. The Agape, so like your forgiveness and your reconciliation has to be good and strong. And then the Eros comes in. None of those three are more important than the other, but they all have to be pretty strong to enjoy your relationship and enjoy your marital intimacy. 

Laura Dugger: Ooh, I love that. Could you even break that down further and give maybe one to two examples of each of those types of love, what that would look like in a marriage? [00:25:25] 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: The friendship piece, so that Phileo love... again, none of these are more important than the others. I'm just starting with the one that's more comfortable for people if they're working on their relationship as a whole. So that friendship piece is really looking for doing something fun together that you both enjoy. 

So when we look at kids... this is actually kind of funny. My nieces have been hanging out with me and so what we've been doing is introducing them to other little kids so they can have fun. And little kids are just neat. They get together, they ask what's your name and then they're like, Great, let's go play and find something we both enjoy doing. And we somehow lose that as adults. 

But part of what you need in your relationship is figuring out, hey, I want to just hang out with you, so what's something we both enjoy doing? Or the other side of that is if we don't have a lot of common interests, what can I do that I know you love and just enjoy being with you? Then, you know, hopefully your spouse will do the same. 

But find something you love. It may be going to a museum. It may be getting really dressed up and going out for a special night. It may be listening to music and dancing in your living room. It may be fixing a meal together. [00:26:26] The possibilities are endless when it comes to friendship because all you're trying to do is spend time together and enjoy that time together. So that's that friendship part or the phileo part. 

Now the Agape part is more of the kind of spiritual love. It goes beyond what most of us have an ability to do outside of our Christian faith and outside of Christ working in our lives. So that Agape love is more of the, you know what, when you're annoying the fire out of me, I'm still gonna love you. 

My husband and I joke often that we annoy each other to no end sometimes, but we wouldn't want to be annoyed by anyone else. Like we'd rather be annoyed by each other than anybody else on earth. So part of that agape love is even though you annoy me I'm still gonna love you. And I'm gonna love you by not pointing out all of your flaws and I'm gonna love you by not telling you all these areas where you need to improve in your life. And I'm gonna love you by letting you know when you're doing something that could hurt you and or hurt me so that we can talk about it, but we're gonna talk about it in a very kind and gentle manner. [00:27:24] 

If you're not getting your laundry done and it makes me mad, I'm gonna ask you kindly to take care of it, not tell you you're a slob. Like, that's part of agape, right? We enter relationship with kindness, gentleness, and grace. 

Then that Eros love, it's sexual intimacy for sure, that's a piece of it, but not just sexual intimacy. It's any kind of that intimate connection that would be a little deeper than you would do just as friends. So that Eros love can include a shoulder rub for one another. It can include maybe dressing up in something that you know your spouse loves. 

So like, I happen to love to get dressed up to go out to dinner. A way my husband can show me some of that Eros love is he can dress up, even though he has to do it Monday through Friday as a teacher, that he can dress up really nice and take me out for a dinner on Saturday night. And that to me is an eros kind of love because he's attractive and he looks great. So things like that are increasing that eros love. 
Certainly the intimacy, the sexual intimacy comes into that as well. So, for couples that are finding they can't intimately connect and they want to, eros love would be saying, Okay, let's get really practical and see what day and time we have this week where we can set aside and make sure it's just for us. [00:28:34] 

All of that is an Eros kind of love. It's the making time for your connection, sometimes scheduling sex, and then really enjoying your connection. So that might mean sitting down and having a conversation about what's been happening in your romantic relationship, what's been good that you'd like to see continue, and maybe what are some needs that haven't been being met. So that would be a time to talk about longer foreplay if you need it or if you need a little more variety. 

So instead of saying, "Hey, do you want to have sex?" and I say yes, and then we go up to the bedroom, could you maybe woo me a little first? All of that is Eros' kind of love. 

Laura Dugger: That is fantastic. I'm just so thankful for all the knowledge that you've shared with us. 

If you're like me, you can't get enough podcasts, and I have some exciting news for you. Did you know that we have bonus episodes that are only available to paying patrons? For as little as $5 per month, you can access some of our most exclusive content. Each $5 patron will gain access to all previous podcasts and a secret bonus episode every month. [00:29:37] We hope that you find this to be an incredible deal. 
That means that if you sign up today, you can hear all of our previous additional conversations with world-known speakers such as Courtney DeFeo and Karen Stubbs, along with so many more. We hope you sign up today by visiting thesavvysauce.com and clicking on the Patreon tab. Thanks for your support. 
If listeners want to go further, how can they connect with you? 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. So you can go to my website at befullywell.com. That is befullywell.com. So one word. I would love to connect with you there. My articles are there. I have my link to Facebook and YouTube there as well. So you can check out videos and follow me on Facebook if you or a fan of the Facebook world. So that's one way. 

Also my phone number is on the top of that page and the bottom of the page, so that makes it really easy to connect with me. 

Laura Dugger: Well, our listeners know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" means practical knowledge. As we conclude today, we would love to hear, what is your savvy sauce? [00:30:41] 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: Sure. One really great way to work on your relationship, and since that's what we've been talking about today with that connection by relationship, one of the great ways to do that is to look at ways that you can kind of praise and adore your spouse. Not only praise like you would in church, right? I mean, we all work well to hear encouragement kind of praise. 

So I always encourage couples that are either going through a hard time or just looking to feel a little bit more intimately connected to start a 30-day journey where every single day you write out something positive about your spouse. The idea is to try not to say the same thing twice. 

Now, you may have to reword some things and kind of repeat maybe themes, but you want to write out one encouragement for your spouse, maybe a prayer for your spouse, or just something about "I love when you do this". Keep those in a journal for 30 days. 

Now, if you really want to be romantic, you can actually show those to your spouse at the end of the 30 days. But in reality, that exercise is for you, not for your spouse, and it's to help you get connected with really kind of the things you love most about your spouse so that you can keep seeing them in a very positive light. [00:31:44] 

Laura Dugger: That is an awesome idea. I love it. Dr. McLeese, I also love your down-to-earth approach and helpful suggestions. Thank you for just taking some of your precious time today to share your years of experience to educate us in this important area. 

Dr. Jessica McCleese: You're so welcome. Thanks for having me. 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:32:48] 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:33:52] 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:34:53] 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.