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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Jan 27, 2025
Monday Jan 27, 2025
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
252. Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 5:21 (NIV) Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- What are a couple of your most important tips for newlyweds?
- What are your favorite recommendations to share with couples who want to be proactive and enhance their sexual intimacy, even if things are currently going pretty well?
- Will you define what constitutes a sexless marriage and share any trends you've seen over the years?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:
Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women
The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex
The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment
Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today
Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner:
Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
Additional Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce:
Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand
Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel
Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler
Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna
Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry
Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes
Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny
Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus
Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker
Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery
Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn
227 Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
Patreon 28 Re-Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery
Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Patreon 52 God, Sex, and Your Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery
Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGm.com.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are my returning guests today. They are considered some of the pioneers in Christian sex therapy, and I'll make sure that I link back to our previous two episodes where we talked about various topics. But today they're going to continue the conversation and give us timeless truth and wisdom as it relates to sexual intimacy in marriage. [00:01:19]
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Cliff and Joyce.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We're glad to be back, and nice to be seeing each other on this. It's great.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. It adds a bonus, wonderful extra layer. The two of you have been on previously. We're familiar that you have a unique line of work, and it's amazing that you get to do it together. But I'd love to know, what is your favorite part of the work that you get to do?
Joyce Penner: It is so rewarding to experience the change that can happen in people's lives.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Just this last weekend, we were up in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada, speaking to a college group, and we got a response there that kind of answers your question.
Joyce Penner: Yes. One of the faculty people said that 25 years ago they had gotten married and gone on our website, passionatecommitment.com, and it read one of the answers to our question about how past childhood sexual abuse can affect your marriage. [00:02:31] And it just fit them perfectly, and they did everything we recommended, and it has made a major difference in their lives and was such a healing work. And that's 25 years ago from something on our website.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We never even talked about it.
Joyce Penner: Not even therapy. It's that kind of a thing that just warms us. Particularly, I think when we can even prevent, like when premarital couples, people who are anticipating marriage, come to us and ask for help or call, we accept calls. And I do about 10, 15 minutes kind of triage-free for anybody who calls. We're not practicing much anymore because we're now in our 80s, but we still can make a difference because, in a few minutes, I can give them some direction. [00:03:32]
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, let's give an example. In our book, Getting Your Sex Life Off to a Great Start, in the chapter on the honeymoon, right in the middle of it, we say, "And if you guys run into trouble on your honeymoon, call us." So we get calls from all over the world while people are on their honeymoon.
Joyce Penner: And it's so great because that honeymoon is what we think back to every anniversary. And if it was painful and didn't work and was disappointing-
Dr. Clifford Penner: And emotionally stressful.
Joyce Penner: So I can just give them some little help and then say, "And do this and just really get to know yourselves and enjoy it, and we'll fix the problem when you get back, but make it a special time." That kind of thing, it just warms us. I mean, it just blesses us so much to know that God is using us in that way.
Laura Dugger: You really model. It truly is better to give than to receive. [00:04:32] I'm sure you receive so much encouragement through their words.
Joyce Penner: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Would you mind even sharing that phone number? If somebody is listening and they want to reach out, what is that number?
Dr. Clifford Penner: I think we should give the office number. (626) 449-2525.
Joyce Penner: We also have on our website, our home office number. You can go to our website to get that because then it goes directly into our home and I can answer it from here.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that because I think it's important. We'll kind of talk about three different phases. You brought up newlyweds, and I'd love to hear more about that stage of life. But then also couples who want to be intentional with their sex lives, even if they're currently content, and then also addressing the married couples who are facing some challenges currently, and also couples who are in a sexless marriage. [00:05:40]
First of all, let's just go back. Let's elaborate on what you're saying about newlyweds. What are a couple of your most important tips that you want newlyweds to know?
Joyce Penner: First of all, to talk about it and to plan and prepare so that... So many times, even well-educated, highly educated couples, brilliant, bright, will say, "Oh, but we don't want to spoil it by talking about it ahead of time."
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's such a bad way of thinking. Such a destructive way of thinking.
Joyce Penner: I mean, we've heard from couples, but the majority...
Dr. Clifford Penner: What they'll often say is, "Let's just do what comes naturally. And what comes naturally most of the time doesn't work if they haven't prepared for it.
Joyce Penner: And talked about it and made sure there are no barriers. Particularly for premarital couples, one question we ask is, for the woman, have you ever been able to use a tampon? [00:06:46] And if she says, "No, you know, I tried and it didn't work" or whatever. "And have you been able to go to the doctor and have a gynecological examination?" "No, I didn't do that."
Well, to never have been able to use a tampon and expect to be able to consummate your marriage, it just will not work. The tampon thing, it isn't that you have to use tampons. It's just a way of assessing quickly whether there could be an issue with difficulty consummating.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So what we recommend is the couple, if they need a guide for talking about it, use a book like our book, Getting Your Sex Life Off to a Great Start. Extend through every aspect of preparing to be together sexually.
Even if couples have had sex prior to getting married, it still is something we would recommend for couples getting married because we find that premarital sex and married sex has a different feeling to it. [00:07:56]
Joyce Penner: Once you're committed, things that happen in our background can trigger a negative reaction. And you could have been highly, intensely passionate before marriage and so eager to consummate or have had great sex. And then you get married and all of a sudden something shuts down. We can anticipate that and prevent it and give some tools ahead of time if people are willing to engage in the process.
Dr. Clifford Penner: The other thing we talk about is clarifying our expectations. So that if the guy thinks we're going to have sex three times a day...
Joyce Penner: Or they yell.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or they yell. And the other one thinks, Well, maybe we'll have sex once on our honeymoon or maybe even beyond the honeymoon, what the expectations are in terms of life.
Joyce Penner: Well, and so many times the couple thinks the guy should plan a surprise honeymoon. We do not recommend surprise honeymoon.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We had a disastrous surprise honeymoon.
Joyce Penner: And a man with lots of wealth to do a great honeymoon. And the gal just hates the environment which he chose.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And the man has spent zillions of dollars on it and she's trying to be a good sport but is not having a good time. So always plan it together from our perspective.
Laura Dugger: That is so wise because that spills into so many other future areas. I'm thinking when that couple transitions then to having children. Going back to what you said, if she's choosing to nurse and she thinks, "Well, I'll just do whatever comes naturally," There can still be a lot to learn. And so it's always wise to plan and prepare. [00:09:51]
And I love that you brought up one of your books. That's a great one. I wonder if people could even take that on the honeymoon with them.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Oh, yeah. But we recommend that they prep for the six months [00:10:03] A lot of couples do.
Joyce Penner: And the other thing we really are against is saving the kiss. The first kiss at the altar. For one thing, a kiss is a very personal, passionate moment. And to do that in front of an audience for the first time.
Dr. Clifford Penner: When you haven't practiced 500 times before that.
Joyce Penner: And kissing is very much the barometer for how a sexual relationship will work. And if kissing isn't working for a premarital couple, they should find out what's going on and get some help. Because that's going to reflect on how the sex life will be.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But the idea of having the first kiss at the altar... we've had so many destructive stories about that. It's an awful idea.
Joyce Penner: If that's going to be the case, then for sure know that you probably won't consummate the marriage on the honeymoon. [00:11:04] That you need to take time and take our book, do the exercises, really get to know each other first before, if that's your value that you don't want to have anything physical until the honeymoon or the marriage.
Laura Dugger: That is so great to hear. I've never heard it put that straightforward before. And I think back, our first kiss was not at the altar. Actually, my husband kissed me before date number two, but that's a whole other story. But at the altar... Oh, is that you as well?
Joyce Penner: But I have to say, I've been taught not to kiss anybody. So I ended up in the hospital with an undiagnosed illness. And they still say, he's such a great kisser. It's no wonder.
Laura Dugger: No way. That's amazing.
Joyce Penner: It stirred up feelings in me I did not know anything about. I was 17, you know. You know, if that had been how we started our marriage, it would have been a real... [00:12:12] We wouldn't be sex therapists today.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Well, and you're right. Even that moment at the altar is so special. I hope I never forget that my husband, Mark, actually leaned in and kissed me three times. And we still laugh about it. So that is really helpful.
What would you say, then, as we progress through couples in marriage, what are some of your favorite recommendations to share with couples who want to be proactive and enhance their sexual intimacy, even if things are currently going pretty well?
Joyce Penner: Yes. Well, we just think if couples are intentional about their sex life, rather than just thinking, again, that it will just happen naturally.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Some couples come in and say, "Well, we don't want to plan it. We just want it to be spontaneous." And we ask them the Dr. Phil question, "So how's that working out for you?"
Joyce Penner: And it's so funny to us. One thing that's very curious is couples will come because they're not having sex. [00:13:16] This isn't the couple where things are good. We'll get back to that question. But they're not having it as often as one of them wants or not often at all. And we'll say, when was the last time? And they say, Well, it's been a couple months, maybe a year. And then they resist planning for it. And we say, "You know, what's that about?" It's obviously not working by not being intentional. So whether it's the resistance to being intentional.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the first thing we would say is-
Joyce Penner: But for those for whom it's going well. We answered that kind of backwards.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But the first thing we would say is plan. You know, when you're in that first year of marriage and everything's going well, it doesn't seem like you have to plan. But once kids come along or you're working on your next business or degree or-
Joyce Penner: Doing your doctoral dissertation.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or whatever. Life is going to get in the way. [00:14:15] And so the only way it's going to work is if you are intentional about your sex life. That's one thing.
A second thing is we would encourage them to practice what we're going to have you put out for everyone. The formula for intimacy. And let's talk about that.
Joyce Penner: Yes. This is something we came up with years ago. And then after the sex and the brain research came out, I think in about 2008... I can't remember when it came out. We had developed this from our clinical observations. And then we found out why it works. And now we can explain in it.
So we talk about what we need to do is plan 15 minutes a day to connect. This isn't to have sex. This is to keep the intimacy going so that we can have an ongoing good sex life. We talk about kissing as part of that. And that kissing- [00:15:15]
Dr. Clifford Penner: But you jump way ahead. First, we talk about an emotional connection. Where you're just looking at each other. One of the things that came out in the research too is that when couples look in each other's eyes, it raises their oxytocin level, which is the binding hormone.
Joyce Penner: We actually came up with that because of breastfeeding and looking into a baby's eyes. And we knew that that was important in terms of attachment. So we started to use that when... Like I remember a couple where the man just had no capacity for intimacy. He was raised in an orphanage and adopted after the first year of life. So he had no attachment during that first year of life. And it's hard to. How do you teach attachment? You know, you can't hold your couples... couple in therapy and hold them and give them what they didn't get from their mom or from a nurturing caregiver.
So we found that looking into their eyes really helped. Well, now we discover in this 15-minute thing where you start by sharing something positive and looking into each other's eyes. [00:16:27] Because the eye-to-eye contact triggers Oxytocin. And that's the bonding attachment intimacy hormone. So we start that way.
And we found that certain couples when they would talk to each other, you could tell they wouldn't look at each other. They'd go past each other rather than have that eye-to-eye contact. And other couples would just be so engaged. And we can make a difference to which couples responded well in the therapy process and where there was a lot of resistance or difficulty.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the first thing is that emotional contact. The next thing is a spiritual connection.
Joyce Penner: This is all in this one 15-minute. You can set the timer just to practice it. And having four kids, you and your husband you practice this.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But for a spiritual connection, everyone is in a different place on their spiritual journey. But that could be saying a prayer together. [00:17:27] It could be reading a couple's devotional. It could be-
Joyce Penner: An inspirational reading. Something where it connects our spiritual [inaudible 00:17:36] into the center of this attachment.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So there's the emotional connection. There's a spiritual connection. And there's a physical connection.
Joyce Penner: And they give each other a full-body hug.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Full body hug. Not what we would call a Southern Baptist hug.
Joyce Penner: And just close on. Your fronts just totally connect and hold.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's got to be 20 seconds. Because the research has shown that a 20-second hug also raises the oxytocin level.
Joyce Penner: Even more strongly. So you just get a huge surge of oxytocin after 20 seconds. So again, we encourage couples to set a timer on their phone. Just 20 seconds.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And play with it.
Joyce Penner: Yeah. And have fun. And you can do this with the kids around. It's great for them to see that mommy and daddy hug each other. And then have a 5 to 30-second passionate kiss. [00:18:35]
Dr. Clifford Penner: And we're talking about a kiss, not a peck. But a passionate kiss. The reason we say 5 seconds is some couples can't last longer than that kissing.
Laura Dugger: And sometimes if there's been... Like maybe a person was abused with the childhood kissing and kissed inappropriately so that kissing is aversive, the hugging and the eye to eye will help. That's why the kiss is the last thing.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And you see, what the kiss does is it raises the dopamine level. That's the exciting hormone rather than the bonding hormone.
Joyce Penner: That's the spark. And even after almost 61 years, we can still get a little spark with that dopamine kissing. That's the formula. And we would suggest that every couple practice that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's just the 15 minutes a day. Then we talk about one day per week, where you have a time set aside for the two of you. [00:19:37]
Joyce Penner: people say, but what if we aren't turned on? You don't have to be turned on. But taking time to pleasure each other, to enjoy each other's bodies. And often in that process, we do get turned on.
But if you don't, it's just wonderful that you were together and touching and caressing and enjoying each other's bodies. And maybe one gets turned on and the other doesn't. The turn-on, the response isn't the important part. The important part is the physical connection caressing each other's bodies.
Dr. Clifford Penner: so 15 minutes a day, one connection during the week. It could be evening, normally, but sometimes it's daytime. And then we suggest that once a quarter a couple divert themselves at least for a day just to each other. And then once a year at least do something like over the weekend. Whether it's a retreat or a getaway or something that is just focused on the relationship. That's the formula for intimacy.[00:20:37]
Joyce Penner: yeah. And it can be attending a seminar or watching a podcast like this. Something where you're together devoting time. Obviously if a mom's breastfeeding, the baby has to go with you wherever you are. There's a period of time where that won't work purely. But still if the older children are with grandma and grandpa or if you don't have a grandma and grandpa around, if you're in a small group, or you have couples neighbors who have young children, trade. You know, one weekend a year you take their kids and one weekend a year they take your kids.
But you can always find some way to do it. And it doesn't have to be expensive. You don't even have to go somewhere if somebody can take your kids. You can stay home and have the weekend and do some reading and studying.
Dr. Clifford Penner: That's the other thing that we would recommend for couples is that they read out loud together. [00:21:34]
Joyce Penner: And there's a reason for that again with the brain. When we have stuff emotions spinning around in our head that affect our body, they're in the right hemisphere of our brain. Our verbal center is in the left hemisphere of our brain. And when we verbalize, when we say something out loud, it has to cross the midline and it loses its power on our body.
It's like when a speaker shakes when they talk and they say, no. But when I talk I shake, and then usually they stop shaking. I remember I had a brother who did court presentations and he had that. And he would just say it and then done. But verbalizing. That's why we recommend so highly that couples they're using our materials, that they read them out loud together and use it... It's almost like the book can become a therapist. [00:22:32] It's like a third party.
And then you can read one sentence and talk an hour about it. Or a paragraph. Or you can read the whole chapter and there's nothing in it that triggers a conversation. But it isn't reading to get through the book. It's reading to stimulate the conversation and having the verbal interaction so the stuff that's bothering you or that's affecting your body isn't controlling anymore, it's getting out.
Laura Dugger: wow you literally just answered a question that I had posed to the lord this morning in my quiet time. I was journaling it. And just thinking of stress that can come on when we've been too busy and haven't had that time to just get current and share things at the end of the day, if it's carried on a few days and you do one huge chunk of time, that still is better. [00:23:26] But just noticing that it was little by little. And I felt like, Lord, is there something here that is a stress reliever when we share it with our words? And you just backed it up with the brain science. That's amazing.
Joyce Penner: Yes. Yes.
Laura Dugger: Well, then, if we continue-
Dr. Clifford Penner: I want to say one more thing quickly. Okay, and that is, for couples that are generally in good shape with each other, we would recommend reading our book, The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex, which is for men, and enjoy the gift of sexual pleasure for women.
Joyce Penner: And they're easy reads. They're not real technical, there's some technical stuff just to help us understand just like we've shared here. But they really read well. You can read one paragraph in the Married Guy's Guide and then one in the other.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or read one whole book and then the other one. Just wanted to say that as one more recommendation for couples to just keep this part alive.
Laura Dugger: That's wonderful we have both of those books in our home and have heard fabulous feedback from others who've read it. So we'll link that actually in today's show notes so people can have an easy link where they can find it. [00:24:40] But if we're thinking about those healthy couples that are currently content, do you have any examples of stories or best advice that comes to mind for those who are mutually satisfied with their intimacy in marriage?
Joyce Penner: Well, the first thing we usually ask is about the kissing and whether they're still kissing passionately.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Because what's happened for many couples is the kissing becomes the determiner of whether we're going to have sex tonight or not. So if husband comes home and wife comes home and he reaches out for a kiss and she determines, do I feel like having sex tonight? And if it's a yes, then it's on the lips. If it's a no, it's on the cheek.
Joyce Penner: And she goes like this rather than like that. I teach a lot of mother's groups and that is such a common one. [00:25:43] They just really identify with that. And so if they realize they make a deal that are kissing, we keep kissing passionately. And we do it whether the kids are there or not. And we do it whether or not we're going to have sex. It doesn't mean I want to have sex if I lean in and kiss passionately.
Dr. Clifford Penner: It means I'm wanting to connect intimately with you right now. And if sex happens, it's great. If it doesn't, that's okay too.
Joyce Penner: We probably don't have as many stories about those for whom it's going well because-
Dr. Clifford Penner: People don't come to us if it's going well.
Joyce Penner: But I do have some from the mothers' groups and mainly. And not a specific one, mainly that's the feedback I get. Oh, we kiss all the time. And in fact the kids, you know, say, Ah, you guys yuck. But it's good for them to see you kissing because eventually they'll be in your role. [00:26:44]
Laura Dugger: That's right I love that you bring up a really crucial point about even just considering all of our non-sexual touch outside the bedroom, that all of that contributes to a better sex life inside the bedroom. So is there anything you'd want to expound upon there?
Joyce Penner: Yeah. Well, I just thought of another example.Some couples walk together, take a walk together. Particularly like if they do have kids and they're old enough that they're fine, you know, to be in the house if they're just going for a walk around the block or whatever. And they walk and talk. And there's a lot of brain research that says walking and talking is very helpful. And mothers will say, I just love it if my husband and I can go for a walk and hold hands and chat and talk, maybe even stop and kiss a bit.
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. Even that bilateral movement, your left to right foot, how there's brain science behind that as well that helps us process and de-stress and connect.
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Laura Dugger: Well then, for better or worse, how do you see other forms of intimacy spilling over into sexual intimacy in marriage?
Dr. Clifford Penner: Say a little bit more about what you mean there.
Laura Dugger: Sure. I'm assuming most couples don't say, we have a fantastic sex life, but we never connect emotionally. Or if they're Christ followers, if spiritual intimacy isn't a piece at all, that probably affects emotional and sexual intimacy.
Joyce Penner: Right. Yes. Having that time to connect in other ways. If sex is just... That's why the formula for intimacy is so important. If sex is just about the erotic, heating our bodies together and getting turned on, and having that dopamine surge, that's what porn is. It's not about a relationship. [00:30:11] If we function that way in our marriage, long term, it won't be good for both. It won't be mutually satisfying.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Another way of saying that is, unless there is some level of intimacy and connection, the sex life, over time, will disintegrate.
Joyce Penner: And that's one of our benefits of working together, because we do everything together, practically. Every now and then, who needs a break to get out of the house to go to the office? Just to have some independent, which I think guys maybe need more than women, but some women may need it too. Maybe high-powered working women outside the home.
But knowing if you need some space, that's fine too. But making sure you do have plenty of time to connect. And even, like you said, share your thoughts, just to get that verbal stuff going. [00:31:10] And if you never have time together to have spiritual connection or emotional expressions, how are you going to de-stress, if the only de-stressing is that dopamine moment of the erotic release.
Dr. Clifford Penner: One of the things that we know is that, first of all, men often find it easier to connect side-by-side than face-to-face. That's why a walk is often good for a man as well. If you think about men activities, men golf together. They're sitting in the golf cart side-by-side. Or they're playing a sport or they're jogging or whatever. So men often first connect side-by-side and then can shift into the face-to-face. That's a pretty common thing.
Laura Dugger: I'd love for you to speak into this. Some married couples have reported that the husband will say, "It unlocks something emotionally in me when I connect sexually with my wife." And I'm trying to recall the science behind it. Probably the oxytocin that just floods in and makes him feel safe and connected. [00:32:30] And so it's such a unique cycle that the Lord created.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Yeah. What I was thinking about as you said that, women often say, "I really feel emotionally connected before we can have sex." And men say, "I really feel emotionally connected after we have sex."
Joyce Penner: Right.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So how do we get those two to work together is the dilemma.
Joyce Penner: We talk about in our Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex and I'm so convinced of the biblical teaching that the husband's role is to love his wife like Christ loved the church. And the way Christ loved the church, we read in Philippians, He gave up His rights. He had the right to be equal with God. And men will say, "Well, don't I have the right? Doesn't she have to do it for me? Because that's my right." Well, Christ gave up His right, human to the death on the cross, and gets with us where we are. He became human. [00:33:30]
Dr. Clifford Penner: But Paul says in Ephesians 5, but keep in mind men, that you're really doing yourself a favor when you give up your rights and get with her. Because when she gets turned on... Paul doesn't say she gets turned on. I'm saying that.
Joyce Penner: This is how we have concluded why he says that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Why he says, then you're really doing yourself a favor when you love her this way. And the reason is because then she gets turned on. And there's nothing that makes a man feel better than a turned-on woman.
Joyce Penner: So even if maybe he's doing it, demanding it, whatever, by his needs, and not giving up his rights, the best way, he's not going to enjoy it as much, is when she's really into it. And she can't get into it unless she feels that connection. So when he gets with her where she is, and she gets turned on, and then she invites, then it's like the Song of Solomon, and they're both delighted in what happens. [00:34:35]
Dr. Clifford Penner: Yeah, because we've got to keep in mind in the Song of Solomon, all he does is tell her how gorgeous she is, and how much he likes all these various body parts, and then she gets turned on, and all that stuff. And she's the one saying, "Come on, let's get going. Let's pick up the pace here." And she's doing the inviting. Why is she doing it? Because she's been so affirmed, and adored, and cherished. And that's what makes it happen for the couple. And then he ends up happy too.
Laura Dugger: That's so well said. Something that we haven't discussed much before, or maybe at all on The Savvy Sauce, is a sexless marriage. So will you first define what constitutes a sexless marriage, and then share any trends that you've seen over the years?
Dr. Clifford Penner: The first thing I would say is that the big research that was done by the University of Chicago in the late 1900s-
Joyce Penner: I think it was 1994 it came out.
Dr. Clifford Penner: It defined sexless marriages as marriages that have sex ten times or less per year. [00:35:42] So less than once a month. That's how it's been defined in our world.
Joyce Penner: Yeah. And they would say low-sex or no-sex marriages. There's been no research to indicate a difference, that it's getting more that way or less that way since 1994.
Dr. Clifford Penner: What we know is that there are many couples who have a low-sex, no-sex marriage, not because there's a problem, but because of their lifestyle. And in fact, the sociologists call these people DINS. D-I-N-S. Dual income, no sex couples. Because their life is so busy, they're both working, they've got to get the kids to soccer practice and get the lunches ready for tomorrow because they've got to leave at 7.30 in the morning.
Joyce Penner: Or earlier to get them off to school on the bus.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And then everybody is exhausted by the evening, and so there isn't any energy left. [00:36:43] So that's one of the reasons for a low-sex, no-sex marriage. Lifestyle. In fact, a while back, there was an article in Newsweek. The cover story was…
Joyce Penner: No sex, we're married. Something like that. And it was like, yeah, there's a lot of sex before marriage, but then once we're married and we have kids, and they're sitting in bed and one on the phone and one on the computer.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And there's no connection. So lifestyle is the biggest thing. Then a second category would be when there are specific barriers to the relationship. It could be that the man is into porn, and so he's masturbating to get release.
Joyce Penner: He's hooked on the dopamine surge, not the oxytocin.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And there's no intimacy there because it's not an intimate relationship with the person on the screen. [00:37:44] It's just getting him aroused and ejaculating.
Joyce Penner: And choosing exactly what he wants. And another difficulty we just want to mention is sometimes when men have been hooked on porn and they've gotten control of that and they're not using it anymore, but the [inaudible 00:38:02] woman still feels like an object because he's wanting her to do what he saw in porn. And that will not work. It would be very destructive because they need that connection for her to be responsive. So he may say, "Now I stopped my porn. Now you're still not, you know, you won't do this and you won't do that."
So it's really important to know that once the porn gets under control, then the couple needs to work through a book like our Restoring the Pleasure? or get help from a certified sexual therapist to learn how to be intimate and definitely start practicing the formula for intimacy. And that may be difficult for him. And he may even avoid it. But the more he can kind of force himself to do that. [00:38:54] And she cannot be the porn object. It's got to be about connection and getting with her where she is.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But that would be just one kind of problem. Another would be if there are some specific difficulties, like the man ejaculates prematurely, or the woman has difficulty being orgasmic or-
Joyce Penner: There were hurts in the past, like a bad dating relationship where one was hurt, or child sexual abuse, or having been raised in an alcoholic or emotionally out-of-control home. And that's where we all need to have safety growing up and our parents need to be in control so we can bounce against those walls. But when that parents were out of control, we internalized the control far too young. [00:39:53]
Dr. Clifford Penner: So one thing we know about adult children with alcoholics is the first thing you read any book on it, the first thing they'll say, The ACA has a high need for control. Well, what's happening in a sexual relationship, it's getting out of control. And so there is a real resistance to let your body get out of control.
Joyce Penner: But once they get aroused, then they can really respond. But there's resistance even to let that happen.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And then often the interest drops right off again, and the next time it's just as difficult to let go. And it isn't like because she had an intense orgasm she liked that, she didn't like it. In fact, I remember early in our practice, I helped the woman she came because she wasn't orgasmic. And I was doing everything just by the book and she became orgasmic too fast. I learned after that to find out about the emotionally out-of-control home. And that was early in our practice. When a woman has been raised, they don't like that feeling of being out of control. [00:40:57]
Laura Dugger: Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says "Join Our Email List" so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy!
I also want to go back to one scenario that you gave. If it was a couple, let's say they dated and there was some harm done during the dating relationship, but then they're married and now find themselves in a sexless marriage, even if they were having premarital sex, that seems like a trickier one to overcome the barriers. So what would be some of the first steps? Because they're still with the person who offended them. [00:41:56]
Joyce Penner: Yeah, then you'd have to work through the relationship issues.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We wouldn't think of that as sexual therapy so much as first relational therapy to deal with the hurt, the pain, the barriers that happened during those traumatic events.
Joyce Penner: And then build trust. Again, we're back to our formula for intimacy, to build the trust. But then they would need the sexual therapy and start restarting. What sexual therapy is, it's stopping everything you've been doing sexually. No intercourse, nothing. And you start over. And you learn how to give and receive touch and to be close and intimate before and you slowly build toward having entry.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We talk about this in our book, Restoring the Pleasure, which takes couples-
Joyce Penner: It's a self-help book. [00:42:52]
Dr. Clifford Penner: ...go through step after step if they want and need to do a rebuilding, a total retraining of their sexual life. And that's the only way that we can see where a couple has these emotional barriers from stuff from the past, whether it's their own past with each other or what they came into the relationship with.
Joyce Penner: One thing we know also from sex and the brain research and our own observation is that sexual response patterns are easily conditioned and self-perpetuating. In other words, especially if the first response was to an external stimulation like pornography, then your body gets hooked on needing that image in order to respond or needing that external stimulus. It's very different than when the first response was to the natural God-given urges during childhood or young adolescence. [00:43:57] When it was that way, it isn't hooking. It's just a natural process in the body then that can lead to a fulfilling sexual relationship.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that can be true for both men and women. Whatever their first experience was in terms of getting aroused and particularly having an orgasm or an ejaculation, that can... we call it an imprinting event at a critical stage of development.
So if that first time was not just the natural response but to something external, then that... Let me just use an example. I've dealt with a situation where a young girl...
Joyce Penner: Well, quite a few situations like that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: ...a woman first discovered her father's Playboy magazines in the closet.
Joyce Penner: Or she was babysitting in another home and discovered, you know, the kids are asleep and she's waiting for the parents to come home. [00:44:59]
Dr. Clifford Penner: And she's looking at this and then is looking at these images in the magazine, whatever it was, and she gets aroused and stimulates herself and has her first orgasm. That can lock in then that for her to have an orgasm with her husband, she has to fantasize about naked women. Not that she's a lesbian, but that got locked in.
I'm just using this as an example of what happens with that first response. Whereas if that response had just happened because she woke up and felt those tingling sensations and stimulated herself, it wouldn't have caused that same kind of reaction.
Joyce Penner: It would be another way of saying that she just responded to the natural itch.
Laura Dugger: Well, and for all of those situations, though, even if somebody was exposed to something like that from a young age, or if they're in that relationship where they had past hurt or trauma in their background, what would you say is the overarching hope? [00:46:03] Because it sounds like you've worked with couples all around the world, and in any situation, hope and healing are possible, especially because of Jesus.
Joyce Penner: Yes, yes. Back to your first question, what is so rewarding about functioning as sexual therapists and even just being available to answer questions over the phone, is sometimes just a little bit of knowledge, or this podcast could open up a whole new world for a person or a couple, and restart their sexual relationship in a way that works, rather than keeping the old patterns going.
Dr. Clifford Penner: What we would want to underscore is no one has to get stuck with a bad sexual relationship. There is always hope, there are always ways around it, whether it's because there's been physical pain for the woman, or there's pain in the relationship, or there's difficulty with functioning, or getting aroused, or having orgasms, all of that, people can end up being happy. [00:47:16]
We dealt regularly, for example, with unconsummated marriages, couples who have been married for months or years and haven't been able to consummate. That too can change.
Joyce Penner: That's one where you really know you've been successful. You either have done it or you haven't. That is so rewarding because anyone who is stuck with the protocol and done the whole process, everyone has consummated. And that isn't just sexual therapy, sometimes pelvic floor physical therapy is necessary, we need to work with the medical team, we need to have a team approach. But it's possible.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the underlying or the overall message here is it is always possible to work toward a healthy and fulfilling sex life if couples are willing to do the deliberate work that it's going to take, step by step. [00:48:14]
Joyce Penner: But back to this sexless or no-sex marriage, both have to acknowledge the issue, pursue either self-help, like with Restoring the Pleasure, or seek a certified sexual therapist. And we're a resource for finding that. We keep track and document in the computer that has all the people all over in other countries, in every state. Now some states, some countries, there are people, but there are always ways, virtual, that you can find help.
Dr. Clifford Penner: One thing we can add is that we hope this message has come through in what we're talking about today, but unless there's an attitude of mutuality, that it has to be as good for one as it is for the other, there will not be a fulfilling sex life at work. [00:49:13] The idea that somehow it's for the man and the woman has to take care of him is a very destructive idea.
Joyce Penner: And that usually comes out of the Ephesians 5 passage, you know, submit yourselves one to another, and wives submit to your husbands, and honor him as you honor God and Christ. And then it goes on, there's one verse about the woman submitting to the man, and then a bunch of verses about...
Dr. Clifford Penner: About 12 verses telling the man how he's supposed to love his wife.
Joyce Penner: Submit to the wife. And yet our evangelical Christian society often has gotten hooked on that, that the woman is responsible to keep the man... Before marriage she's responsible to make sure they don't have sex, and after marriage she's responsible to make sure they do have sex. I mean, it doesn't work. It's got to be mutual. And every passage starts with those incorporates, even like that one, submit yourselves one to another. It isn't just the man can ask for whatever he wants, and then she's just got to do it. [00:50:22] That kind of demand will never work for him long term, or for them together, or for her.
Laura Dugger: And what I'm hearing, the main two words that come to mind are truth and wisdom. And you're giving us God's truth from the Bible, and even helping interpret what that looks like, even with the brain science. But that truth really does set you free, that knowledge. And knowledge goes into the wisdom piece as well. You think of in Proverbs when it says, "Above all else get wisdom, though it costs everything you have. Get knowledge, get understanding."
And so I love that that's your first place to begin to give hope to any couple. Your resources are a great place to get that first step of knowledge, and then hopefully to work with a person if that's the next step needed.
Joyce Penner: One of the things that has been so exciting to us to study the research that has been done on sexual response and all that, and brain and sex research, how much it affirms the scripture. [00:51:31] It really does. And God created us so we are His creation, so it makes sense that when we find out the facts, that they are affirming in scripture rather than contradictory. They do work with what we experience, and what we learn from scripture.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Well, this conversation has all been such a gift. But if people do want to follow up or learn more from the two of you, could you again just give us the best place where we can link in the show notes?
Joyce Penner: Well, to passionatecommitment.com, our website, to our formula for intimacy, and then to any of our resources, and you've mentioned probably the most important ones, the newlyweds, Getting Your Sex Life Off to a Great Start, The Married Guys Guide, and Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women, for couples of all ages and stages, and then Restoring the Pleasure for step-by-step sexual retraining when the sexual pattern is not working well, for whatever reason. [00:52:41]
Dr. Clifford Penner: And all those are listed on our website, passionatecommitment.com.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing. And this is your third time back, so you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Joyce Penner: Be intentional.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Yeah.
Joyce Penner: And probably you can guess how to be intentional, because we've mentioned it so many times: practice our formula for intimacy.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Yeah, we would see that. In fact, couples many times say, that's changed our life. Just those 15 minutes a day that aren't focused on sex, they're just focused on connecting, and then the sex naturally grows out of that. So that's it.
Joyce Penner: We hope that couples can just really learn to enjoy each other, and delight in each other, and it can be a wonderful blessing to their family, and to the community in which they serve, when they are being fulfilled at home, in the privacy of their home. [00:53:53]
Dr. Clifford Penner: So, thanks for having us.
Joyce Penner: Yes, very nice.
Dr. Clifford Penner: It's good to see you face to face, and enjoy very much.
Laura Dugger: Well, very much enjoyed this time together with both of you. Thank you for everything you shared. You are a delightful couple, and it's so great to connect through this screen and just see your love flow between the two of you, your wonderful role models. I just want to say thank you for being my guests.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Oh, good. Love it. Okay.
Joyce Penner: Enjoy.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Hope to see you again.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Take care. Thank you.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Bye-bye.
Laura Dugger: Bye-bye.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:54:54] So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? [00:55:55] Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. [00:56:59] We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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